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Re: Sam Newman at it again!

Reply #45 –
Why do we need to be welcomed to our own country constantly?
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: Sam Newman at it again!

Reply #46 –
Quote from: madbluboy on
Why do we need to be welcomed to our own country constantly?

The Welcome To Country is a sign of respect. If you want to argue about the definition of "Our Own Country", that's up to you.

First Nations people were semi nomadic, and their level of movement varied according to weather, food sources and the like. As they lived predominantly outside, the land, the country, was effectively their home. If one tribe or mob moved from one place to another, they invariably needed to cross through the lands of another mob, and in much the same way as people knocking on our door at home, you welcome them into your home (or not), depending on a variety of circumstances. Inviting people into your home is essentially a welcome, and every time they visit, you welcome them again. So it is with First Nations people. So every time you visit the MCG, you are visiting Wurundjeri country. You can argue about whether the Welcome should be dealt with symbolically or literally, but that's a separate issue.

Re: Sam Newman at it again!

Reply #47 –
Quote from: LP on
It's even worse on the bureaucracy side of things, in some areas you get land site survey fees as part of planning permits but built into this is you guessed it, a tick off from local indigenous communities before you can even dig a hole, more $ for that in the fee than the surveyors.

Another case, a family farm has been growing trees for lumber for nearly 100 years. They want to clear some of the trees to restore pastures, now they have to get a permit to clear trees their own family planted and we're initially denied on indigenous heritage grounds. But hold a ceremony to clear the land for use it'll be OK, $11,000 is the fee they paid, the ceremony involved burning fallen timber and removing what was described as a handful of dirt. The ashes of fallen timber from their own trees, it's like a joke story you hear in a Scottish pub about how locals con tourists!

If shizen like this is really going on, then it's obligatory for it to be exposed by both sides of the debate, otherwise one side is going to risk being labelled disingenuous!

Wrong LP.  I administered Victoria's Aboriginal Heritage Act 2006 from its commencement in 2007 until I retired at the end of 2012.  That's not how it works.

High impact activities in areas of cultural heritage sensitivity (defined by demonstrated correlation of landforms and the presence of Aboriginal cultural heritage - occupations sites, stone artefacts, burials, rock art, etc) may require the preparation of a cultural heritage management plan.  If so, the plan must be completed and approved before a statutory authority, such as a planning permit, can be granted.  Cultural heritage management plans must be prepared by qualified heritage advisors, 99% of whom are non-Indigenous archaeologists.  Representatives of the relevant Aboriginal group(s) may be employed to assist with the preparation of the plan but the lion's share of cost of the plan goes to the archaeologist.

Where a traditional owner body has been appointed as the Registered Aboriginal Party or RAP (that's about 75% of the State), the RAP may elect to evaluate the plan.  Fees for evaluating plans are set by regulation and there is an appeal process if the RAP declines to approve the plan.  In my time, only around 50% of the State had RAPs and evaluation of management plans was done by my department.  Part of my role was signing off on whether cultural heritage management plans could be approved in accordance with criteria specified by regulation.  Many plans could not be approved on first submission.  In other words, inadequate work by some heritage advisors resulted in project delays and additional costs.

The objectives of the management plan process are to avoid harming Aboriginal cultural heritage where possible.  If that's not possible, harm should be minimised or mitigated.  Once the plan is approved, the development can proceed in accordance with the requirements of the plan.

One of the developers I had to deal with over a plan that could not be approved was Fraser Brown.  He saw the nub of the problem immediately and, after berating his heritage advisor for wasting his time, instructed her to re-write the plan exactly as DJC (and the regulations) required.

The legislation that underpins this process is acknowledged as world's best practice.
“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball

Re: Sam Newman at it again!

Reply #48 –
Quote from: PaulP on
The Welcome To Country is a sign of respect. If you want to argue about the definition of "Our Own Country", that's up to you.

First Nations people were semi nomadic, and their level of movement varied according to weather, food sources and the like. As they lived predominantly outside, the land, the country, was effectively their home. If one tribe or mob moved from one place to another, they invariably needed to cross through the lands of another mob, and in much the same way as people knocking on our door at home, you welcome them into your home (or not), depending on a variety of circumstances. Inviting people into your home is essentially a welcome, and every time they visit, you welcome them again. So it is with First Nations people. So every time you visit the MCG, you are visiting Wurundjeri country. You can argue about whether the Welcome should be dealt with symbolically or literally, but that's a separate issue.

Not entirely true Paul.

Indigenous Australian society is/was based on clans claiming descent from a common ancestor as the land owning group.  Several clans made up a language group (sometimes called a tribe or nation) with the same language, kinship rules, creation stories, etc.  Members of the language group would move around their clan estates in a cycle that enabled exploitation of seasonally abundant resources as well as meeting neighbours for trade, ceremony and to obtain wives (men rarely left their clans to join their wife's clan). 

On occasion, entire language groups would travel across other language grpups' estates for ceremonies and trade.  For example, the Faithfull massacre occurred when Faithfull's  men panicked at the sight of hundreds of Kulin and opened fire.  Faithfull's  men were swiftly overpowered and most were killed.  The Kulin were travelling from around Melbourne to north of Albury for a ceremony with the local Wiradjuri people.

The Kulin would have been welcomed to the different estates or country through which they travelled.  In that context, and as you say Paul, "country" is not Australia but the clan estates of the local people.  So when Colin Hunter says "Wominjeka yearmann koondee biik Wurundjeri balluk", he's not welcoming folk to the country as if they've just arrived but he's making everyone welcome to the lands of his ancestors.  That's particularly appropriate for the MCG as it was a highly significant gathering place for the Kulin people.  In other words, he's being courteous to those who know live on his ancestors' country as well as those who are visiting.
“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball

Re: Sam Newman at it again!

Reply #49 –
Thanks for the clarification David.

Re: Sam Newman at it again!

Reply #50 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on
It does and it's been made clear in the media etc to that effect as well but will the voice panel operate under those conditions because it appears toothless at the minute and could be accused of being a token setup with little value going forward and why there doesn't seem to be uniform agreement amongst all first nations people including politicians.


Can you name one group in any society that has uniform agreement about any issue?  Why should Indigenous Australians be any different?

Anyway, as it stands 80% of Indigenous Australians are in favour of the Voice.
“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball

Re: Sam Newman at it again!

Reply #51 –
Quote from: LP on
There is as much influence and money in this debate for both sides as there is in associate marketing, it's not restricted to a race or religion!

Someone somewhere on both sides pockets some cash.


Please explain how one can make money out of this debate.  I'd like a share  :)
“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball

Re: Sam Newman at it again!

Reply #52 –
Eddie Betts says,“I’ve taken my time over the past 12 months, to speak to Elders, community members and people I trust to get more information about the Voice. I’ve listened to a range of opinions and worked hard to understand exactly what the Voice is and how it impacts Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I know the Voice is not an immediate solution to the many barriers we as Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people face, but I feel like it’s the opening of a pathway to make sure we’re included and respected in decision-making on issues that affect us.”
“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball
 

Re: Sam Newman at it again!

Reply #53 –
Quote from: PaulP on
Sam Newman. So brave, so tough, so courageous. A real martyr for free speech. Please.


i find a lot (almost all in fact) of what Sam Newman says distasteful. But i want to live in a country where we debate opinions and even allow those who disagree with us to say their piece. Too many in society decry alternate opinions and people even lose their jobs if they publicly disagree... Sam Newman is a tosser, but i stick by it, he has every right to state his opinion, unless he crosses lines that are illegal.

Also i know people like to misquote, which is one of the reasons i gave up on forums.. but  will point out i never said Newman was Tough, Courageous or Brave, nor did i say he was a "martyr for free speech"... i claimed it is important he has the right to disagree even on divisive issues that swaths of society have arbitrarily already declared off limits.

And i would HATE if anyone booed, but i hate all booing.
Goals for 2017
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Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Sam Newman at it again!

Reply #54 –
Quote from: mateinone on
i find a lot (almost all in fact) of what Sam Newman says distasteful. But i want to live in a country where we debate opinions and even allow those who disagree with us to say their piece. Too many in society decry alternate opinions and people even lose their jobs if they publicly disagree... Sam Newman is a tosser, but i stick by it, he has every right to state his opinion, unless he crosses lines that are illegal.

Also i know people like to misquote, which is one of the reasons i gave up on forums.. but  will point out i never said Newman was Tough, Courageous or Brave, nor did i say he was a "martyr for free speech"... i claimed it is important he has the right to disagree even on divisive issues that swaths of society have arbitrarily already declared off limits.

And i would HATE if anyone booed, but i hate all booing.


Firstly I apologise for misquoting you.

Newman, and others of his ilk, wouldn't know a debate if it bit him on the ar$e. He has no interest in debating, he has no interest in understanding anything in any depth, he has no interest in anything other than just gobbing off to anything he doesn't like. He is the first one to shoot down anyone who disagrees with him, with all manner of insults and dismissive cr@p.

Free speech is not equally distributed among the population - they are blatant power asymmetries that give people like him leverage that others don't have. Newman speaks from a position of privilege and status that affords him protection from any real punishment. Imagine if Lidia Thorpe came out and said we should all burn Australian flags and slow clap during the National Anthem ? There's a reason why hate speech is used predominately by protected groups like the one to which Newman belongs.

Re: Sam Newman at it again!

Reply #55 –
Guess what? No-one booed 🙂
“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball

Re: Sam Newman at it again!

Reply #56 –
I hate all booing too and I respect freedum, sorry Freedom Of speech, but if some fool that has had more airtime than all of us x100 combined for no other reason than he is a stale pale old
middle class male that has always had that freedom, above others, to voice what he thinks with no retribution ever, then I do not respect nor value that opinion.

And it’s not just him voicing an opinion. It is him also telling people to boo the WTC. So he’s advocating not only to disapprove Of it but to actively voice that.

Embarrassing stupid fool.

Re: Sam Newman at it again!

Reply #57 –
Quote from: mateinone on
i find a lot (almost all in fact) of what Sam Newman says distasteful. But i want to live in a country where we debate opinions and even allow those who disagree with us to say their piece. Too many in society decry alternate opinions and people even lose their jobs if they publicly disagree... Sam Newman is a tosser, but i stick by it, he has every right to state his opinion, unless he crosses lines that are illegal.

Also i know people like to misquote, which is one of the reasons i gave up on forums.. but  will point out i never said Newman was Tough, Courageous or Brave, nor did i say he was a "martyr for free speech"... i claimed it is important he has the right to disagree even on divisive issues that swaths of society have arbitrarily already declared off limits.

And i would HATE if anyone booed, but i hate all booing.

There’s a big difference between stating an opinion and advocating an action that would be offensive to many Australians.

Newman has been irrelevant since the twilight of his playing career but some folk will be emboldened by his call to disrespect the welcome to country and, by extension, First Nations peoples.

Freedom of speech brings with it responsibilities and media outlets that provide a platform for the likes of Newman have a responsibility not to promote disharmony.
“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball

Re: Sam Newman at it again!

Reply #59 –
Quote from: Micky0 on
In fact, a huge cheer at the end of it.

Hm is Sam Newman, irrelevant 🤔

But for Newman, and others of his ilk, that’s just down to sheeple and intimidation.

He will never concede that he’s wrong or that he misread public opinion.
“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball