Carlton Supporters Club

Around The Grounds => The Sports Desk => Topic started by: LP on October 13, 2013, 01:31:41 pm

Title: Formula 1
Post by: LP on October 13, 2013, 01:31:41 pm
Well, the rumors have been rife for some time about disparity between RBR's Vettel car and the rest of the grid. Now it appears some retired F1 drivers and engineers have managed to expose something truly odd going on at RBR only with the Vettel car.

A lot of people claimed Webber had sour grapes when he complained of the playing field not being level in seasons gone by. Several race teams who had examine race telemetry could not explain the performance RBR was able to get out of Vettel's car, especially exiting corners. Now it seems they have stumbled over a big clue, exposed by Vettel's huge Singapore race win margin.

Traction control has been banned for several years, to ensure that it isn't an issue all race teams use a F1 control package for the engine management. During the F1 traction control years cars had a very similar sound, especially when power was applied as a car exits a corner. F1 enthusiasts will recall that sound, that deep rattle gun like reverberation as the traction control took care of managing the engine power. Now it appears, for Vettel's cars and for Vettel's car alone, that sound is back!

The speculation is that RBR engineers have found away around the F1 control package to offer Vettel a traction control advantage over the rest of the field. Ironically for Webber, only the Vettel car exhibits the alleged behavior!

Some F1 engineers speculate RBR is using some smart mechanical design so that KERS gets feedback from the suspension loading. Giving Vettel the equivalent of a hybrid electromechanical traction control system. They have offered track audio recordings as evidence.

[flash=420,315]http://www.youtube.com/v/8DwXOPN7ZIM[/flash]

Ironically, a week or so after the rumor surfaced, Webber has ended up on pole and the early reports from Japan are that the Vettel sound has disappeared!

In defense engineers from RBR are rumored to have linked the unusual sound to Vettel short shifting due to gear box problems. But in the last few races Webber has also been required to short shift and his car did not exhibit that sound.

A fleet of media and F1 connected engineers are now scouring footage and audio from past races and seasons to see if they can find a pattern of audio that will either support or dismiss the speculation.

But there is one thing that is confirmed, if RBR has found to have fiddled with KERS or traction control Vettel's car is illegal.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on October 13, 2013, 01:54:09 pm
Yes it does sound like traction control.

Although it also sounds like a very low engine rev, which you'd get from short shifting.

I've been to over a dozen race weekends over the years, including in Austin, and the cars have changed dramatically over that time.

It would've been around 9 years ago when there was a wet qualifying day and i was on turn 5 ? as listening to the cars coming around. It was very clear to me then that the best cars had the best traction control...and they did sound a lot like that. It was also very clear that some stragglers (jordon/jaguar) had some absolutely rediculous traction control systems. It was so bad and sounded so different that the crowd were actually laughing everytime one of their cars came around. It sounded very sick.

Anyway, over the journey you pick up sounds like that and the other time you hear that is when cars are doing their in laps after qualifying, keeping low revs and short shifting on their way back to the pits to conserve their tires and potentially fuel. It is certainly not a sound you hear often on race day, but one you'll here every qualifying day.

So as for Vettel and the traction control...it isn't proof he has it, but it isn't proof he doesn't.

In short the video is very much inconclusive.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on October 13, 2013, 02:35:44 pm
So as for Vettel and the traction control...it isn't proof he has it, but it isn't proof he doesn't.

In short the video is very much inconclusive.

I agree, I think without wanting to point the finger the other teams are saying Vettel's car sounds like that while he is doing hot laps and putting +32s on the rest of the field. That is hard to explain if he is short shifting, it is a juicy rumor at the very least, but it does seem to have some substance which is the reason I summarised it here!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on May 16, 2014, 02:04:49 pm
I read today that Vettel and Ricciardo take breakfast together and share a sense of humour, like best buddies.

Careful Daniel, Vettel is obeying the first rule of war and mining you for your secrets of speed!

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer!  ;)

Make sure it's all Quid Pro Quo!  ::)
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 16, 2014, 05:18:32 pm
I read today that Vettel and Ricciardo take breakfast together and share a sense of humour, like best buddies.

Careful Daniel, Vettel is obeying the first rule of war and mining you for your secrets of speed!

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer!  ;)

Make sure it's all Quid Pro Quo!  ::)
I just vomited in my mouth.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: malo on May 19, 2014, 12:18:57 pm
Sad news reports this morning, Sir Jack Brabham has passed away aged 88.

The title "Legend", gets bandied around far to readily these days.......Jack Brabham was a bone-fide legend.

A Triple world champion right smack bang in the most dangerous era of Motor Racing there has ever been.

RIP.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on May 19, 2014, 07:15:32 pm
Sad news reports this morning, Sir Jack Brabham has passed away aged 88.

The title "Legend", gets bandied around far to readily these days.......Jack Brabham was a bone-fide legend.

A Triple world champion right smack bang in the most dangerous era of Motor Racing there has ever been.

RIP.

Indeed, sad news. He had a good run though.

Heard tribute on Triple M this arvo with Skaife telling a few facts about him.

His 3rd title was won in a team that he owned, in a car that he built. First and only time that has ever happened.

He raced until he was 44, and won a race in that year as well.

During his time driving at the highest level, 30 competitors died.

It was a brutal sport and he not only survived, but excelled.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: ItsOurTime on May 19, 2014, 10:22:13 pm
RIP Does not get the recognition he deserves as a sportsman in Australia. Only 4 men have won more championships. As mentioned, drove in a period it was a death sport. Some of those old time accidents are brutal and really hard to watch.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Juddkreuzer on May 19, 2014, 11:27:23 pm
RIP Does not get the recognition he deserves as a sportsman in Australia. Only 4 men have won more championships. As mentioned, drove in a period it was a death sport. Some of those old time accidents are brutal and really hard to watch.

X2

Love to see Ricciardo win as a tribute to the great man.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: raven on October 07, 2014, 03:48:17 pm
I presume this is the latest F1 thread?

Apologies if not.

Video emerged of the 2nd tractor crash in the F1.

Brutal. Hope Bianchi pulls through.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/motorsport/jules-bianchi-crash-video-surfaces-of-f1-incident-at-japanese-grand-prix/story-fnec578q-1227082081644
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on October 07, 2014, 03:52:49 pm
Yes, stupid thing is for all the money they spend on the track they don't put collision underride guards on the heavy vehicles. Something so basic that is relatively cheap, is already fitted to many on road semi-trailers, might have made a massive difference.

Instead this poor guy gets it in the head from the tractors counterweight.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: ItsOurTime on October 07, 2014, 04:50:07 pm
I presume this is the latest F1 thread?

Apologies if not.

Video emerged of the 2nd tractor crash in the F1.

Brutal. Hope Bianchi pulls through.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/motorsport/jules-bianchi-crash-video-surfaces-of-f1-incident-at-japanese-grand-prix/story-fnec578q-1227082081644

Geez, just in slow motion that looked like a high speed impact. Terrible stuff, hope he pulls through
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on March 17, 2015, 04:56:35 pm
Bit disappointing to see Ricciardo being given the Eagles No.1 ticket!

Only a year or so ago he was at Princes Park getting jumpers and the full treatment off Carlton!

Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: ItsOurTime on March 17, 2015, 05:31:39 pm
And here I was thinking he was a fanatical Carlton supporter :P
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Juddkreuzer on March 17, 2015, 05:44:46 pm
And here I was thinking he was a fanatical Carlton supporter :P

With a name like his he should be. Should get Juddy to have a word in his ear.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on March 17, 2015, 06:11:39 pm
Bit disappointing to see Ricciardo being given the Eagles No.1 ticket!

Only a year or so ago he was at Princes Park getting jumpers and the full treatment off Carlton!



He's always been a big Eagles fan. We tried our darndest to persuade him to the Blues, but he stayed loyal.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: ItsOurTime on July 19, 2015, 10:39:01 am
I can't find the thread where his accident was posted but sadly Jules Bianchi has passed away.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on August 22, 2015, 10:29:44 pm
Is it time for Alonso to pull the plug?
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on August 23, 2015, 04:24:00 am
Is it time for Alonso to pull the plug?

From McLaren perhaps. Honda has failed him and them.

There were rumours he was either going to buy his own team, or go to McLaren.....not sure which team he was going to buy, but i reckon he made the wrong call.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: c4e on September 01, 2015, 01:52:06 pm
Is it time for Alonso to pull the plug?

Slightly off topic but pretty sure Darryl Beatie said that Rossi should have retired a couple of years ago too  ::)
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on September 01, 2015, 07:17:19 pm
Slightly off topic but pretty sure Darryl Beatie said that Rossi should have retired a couple of years ago too  ::)

Motorsport is the same as footy.

Get a good car/bike under you and you'll look a million bucks.
Get a good team/club around you and you'll look a million bucks.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 19, 2016, 06:29:43 pm
What do we think of the new Quali elimination format? I loved it until the last 4 mins. I was expecting a final shootout but tyre limitations ended Q3 with 3 mins remaining. Anticlimactic to say the least.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on March 19, 2016, 07:44:07 pm
What do we think of the new Quali elimination format? I loved it until the last 4 mins. I was expecting a final shootout but tyre limitations ended Q3 with 3 mins remaining. Anticlimactic to say the least.

The commentators certainly let their feelings be known.

Personally i think the idea of it is awesome.

Unfortunately it appears some of the teams have very little idea of how it works. Too many times they sent drivers out too late meaning they simply wasted a set of tyres for nothing.

Agree about places like SPA though, when the 90 sec limit is pretty stupid....and even the 5 minutes before someone is eliminated in Q3 is pretty stupid. You ould have the scenario that in a wet Q3, not 1 car has actually got around their outlap and completed their hot lap before drivers are starting to get eliminated!

Under the current setup, is there really any need to have it split up over 3 mini qualifying sessions anyway?

Needs a rethink, but i'm not sure it will get a chance. I suspect it may be a one off.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 19, 2016, 09:36:27 pm
The commentators certainly let their feelings be known.

Personally i think the idea of it is awesome.

Unfortunately it appears some of the teams have very little idea of how it works. Too many times they sent drivers out too late meaning they simply wasted a set of tyres for nothing.

Agree about places like SPA though, when the 90 sec limit is pretty stupid....and even the 5 minutes before someone is eliminated in Q3 is pretty stupid. You ould have the scenario that in a wet Q3, not 1 car has actually got around their outlap and completed their hot lap before drivers are starting to get eliminated!

Under the current setup, is there really any need to have it split up over 3 mini qualifying sessions anyway?

Needs a rethink, but i'm not sure it will get a chance. I suspect it may be a one off.
Give them more sets of tyres per GP and it will work. Its exciting in theory.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: dodge on March 19, 2016, 10:04:57 pm
Good idea, but needs adjusting to allow completion of a lap or a longer elimination time   From the pits to do an out lap and complete a timed is about 3mins.  This means that the second last team may need to pit before they know they are that close to elimination.

Without adjustment it is just musical chairs at a 5yo birthday party
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 19, 2016, 11:10:04 pm
Good idea, but needs adjusting to allow completion of a lap or a longer elimination time   From the pits to do an out lap and complete a timed is about 3mins.  This means that the second last team may need to pit before they know they are that close to elimination.

Without adjustment it is just musical chairs at a 5yo birthday party
I like it. They calculate the fork out of everything, this is just another calc and strategy they have to do. Get it wrong, you're stuffed, get it right, the driver lives to play another day.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: dodge on March 20, 2016, 10:50:06 pm
F1 is an interesting political beast.  I hear they are reverting to the previous format for the next race ate some complaints...
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 20, 2016, 11:42:44 pm
It was a disaster yesterday, they had to scrap it.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on March 21, 2016, 07:56:00 pm
It was a disaster yesterday, they had to scrap it.

It WAS a disaster, but i think the teams are mostly to blame for that.

They simply did not send ther drivers out at the right time.

Its pretty simple. Every 90 seconds a guy gets eliminated. Thats how long it takes to do a lap. You need to do 2 (out lap + hot lap) which is 3 minutes.

If you are next to be eliminated and you are in the pits, too bad.
If you are the the one to be eliminated after the next one and you are in the pits. Too bad.
If there are 2 drivers between you and the 'elimination bubble' get your butt out on the track immediately, otherwise you will essentially be gone too in a minute or so.
If there are 3 drivers between you and the 'elimination bubble get your butt on the track immediately, otherwise as the guy above you doing a hit lap can put you out in a minute or so.
etc...

Teams need to think at least 3 minutes ahead. They weren't.

Why Ferrari decided to sit out the last 5 minutes or so was a weird decision. If it was simply to save tyres for the race, let them have more tyres for qualifying.

A lot of the issues can be fixed if the teams wise up to what is going on, and they are allowed extra sets of tyres.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 21, 2016, 08:09:42 pm
It WAS a disaster, but i think the teams are mostly to blame for that.

They simply did not send ther drivers out at the right time.

Its pretty simple. Every 90 seconds a guy gets eliminated. Thats how long it takes to do a lap. You need to do 2 (out lap + hot lap) which is 3 minutes.

If you are next to be eliminated and you are in the pits, too bad.
If you are the the one to be eliminated after the next one and you are in the pits. Too bad.
If there are 2 drivers between you and the 'elimination bubble' get your butt out on the track immediately, otherwise you will essentially be gone too in a minute or so.
If there are 3 drivers between you and the 'elimination bubble get your butt on the track immediately, otherwise as the guy above you doing a hit lap can put you out in a minute or so.
etc...

Teams need to think at least 3 minutes ahead. They weren't.

Why Ferrari decided to sit out the last 5 minutes or so was a weird decision. If it was simply to save tyres for the race, let them have more tyres for qualifying.

A lot of the issues can be fixed if the teams wise up to what is going on, and they are allowed extra sets of tyres.
I agree Krudd, I think the number of tyres was the problem, they could afford to have another crack. Give em more tyres and let the elimination format sort the the men from the boys. Get it wrong? Tough titties.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: ItsOurTime on March 22, 2016, 12:16:53 am
I haven't been following this sport with any sort of regularity since the engine use rules came in (don't think I missed a race for 10 years).... Boy, it's a wacky sport now! Couldn't even hear the things...
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Juddkreuzer on March 22, 2016, 02:17:33 am
How Alonso walked away from that is a modern miracle.

It's a shame poor old Senna missed out on these technical advances.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 22, 2016, 08:22:21 am
How Alonso walked away from that is a modern miracle.

It's a shame poor old Senna missed out on these technical advances.
The modern formula one car monocoques are an incredible piece of engineering as was displayed in Sunday. Senna's death was a freak accident where a suspension component broke off as he struck the wall and pierced him fatally just above the eye through the visor. You may recall Massa had a peice of suspension break off a car in front of him a few years ago when he was at Ferrari. It struck him above eye through the visor and suffered an eerily similar injury to Senna yet made a full recovery. I see a few teams have tested a few different designs which offer protection to the drivers head in the wake of the Bianchi tragedy. Its probably only a matter of time where they are in a completely closed cell. Someone was definitely looking down on Alonso no doubt. He even said after the crash he used up one of his lives. Scary stuff that.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on March 22, 2016, 08:26:19 am
I used to love F1 but it's dead to me now, it's no longer racing.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 22, 2016, 08:50:16 am
I used to love F1 but it's dead to me now, it's no longer racing.
I still love it, its just super technical these days compared to even 5-10 years ago. A mate of mine spoke to a Red Bull engineer at the GP the first year the new turbo/electric power units where used. The engineer told him these things are off the planet in terms of performance, might not sound the best but are insane.
I was watching qualifying on Sat and they showed in car of Lewis during a lap. Not only was he going flat knacker on a quali lap, he was constantly adjusting brake bias via steering wheel buttons between most corners. I must commend the FIA, they are always trying to limit team or technology input to the driver. Now they have limited what they can tell the driver over radio comms. I'm sure the teams will get around it the shifty buggers. But I under how many have dropped off F1, its not everyone's cup of tea any more.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on March 22, 2016, 11:30:22 am
I still love it, its just super technical these days compared to even 5-10 years ago. A mate of mine spoke to a Red Bull engineer at the GP the first year the new turbo/electric power units where used. The engineer told him these things are off the planet in terms of performance, might not sound the best but are insane.
I was watching qualifying on Sat and they showed in car of Lewis during a lap. Not only was he going flat knacker on a quali lap, he was constantly adjusting brake bias via steering wheel buttons between most corners. I must commend the FIA, they are always trying to limit team or technology input to the driver. Now they have limited what they can tell the driver over radio comms. I'm sure the teams will get around it the shifty buggers. But I under how many have dropped off F1, its not everyone's cup of tea any more.

I don't mind the quiet cars and technology as long as there is racing. The "formula" part of F1 barely exists anymore, contrast racing in F1 with racing in other categories there is no comparison. Even Hamilton was recently quoted as stating F1 is boring.

Senna had the right idea years ago, remove most of the technology and leave it up to driver skills, then you get racing. Soon they will be able to replace the F1 drivers with robots and you will barely notice a difference!

In any case F1 is no longer the regime for the worlds best drivers, because you only get a drive if you can bring $50M~$100M to the team plus sponsors.

I recall at Bathhurst there was a drive off between Button and Lowndes, a modified F1 car and a touring car with drivers swapping. After a few laps Lowndes was within 0.3s of Button, after just as many laps in the touring car Button was still 7s adrift of Lowndes time. It was very diplomatically reported! ;)

Reminds me of when some celebs on Top Gear almost match times with F1 drivers, hard to believe but it happens.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on March 22, 2016, 07:56:04 pm
I don't mind the quiet cars and technology as long as there is racing. The "formula" part of F1 barely exists anymore, contrast racing in F1 with racing in other categories there is no comparison. Even Hamilton was recently quoted as stating F1 is boring.

Senna had the right idea years ago, remove most of the technology and leave it up to driver skills, then you get racing. Soon they will be able to replace the F1 drivers with robots and you will barely notice a difference!

In any case F1 is no longer the regime for the worlds best drivers, because you only get a drive if you can bring $50M~$100M to the team plus sponsors.

I recall at Bathhurst there was a drive off between Button and Lowndes, a modified F1 car and a touring car with drivers swapping. After a few laps Lowndes was within 0.3s of Button, after just as many laps in the touring car Button was still 7s adrift of Lowndes time. It was very diplomatically reported! ;)

Reminds me of when some celebs on Top Gear almost match times with F1 drivers, hard to believe but it happens.

OK, last line first. They never compete in the same cars, so not sure where you have drawn that comparison.

Button vs Lowndes...
Was unaware of that ever happening, but i reckon that says more about the bathurst track than anything else.
Put the same cars at Monaco and Lowndes wouldn't be able to finish a lap in the F1 car.

re Senna...
Courtesy of his death, there was a real shift to make the sport safer....and it worked.
Up until last year with the delayed death of Jules Bianchi, nobody had died since Senna in an unparalled improvement in the sport.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on March 22, 2016, 08:22:46 pm
OK, last line first. They never compete in the same cars, so not sure where you have drawn that comparison.

Button vs Lowndes...
Was unaware of that ever happening, but i reckon that says more about the bathurst track than anything else.
Put the same cars at Monaco and Lowndes wouldn't be able to finish a lap in the F1 car.

re Senna...
Courtesy of his death, there was a real shift to make the sport safer....and it worked.
Up until last year with the delayed death of Jules Bianchi, nobody had died since Senna in an unparalled improvement in the sport.

It's fair enough, I was sure the F1 Car from Top Gear in one year was used by Celebs in another.

It's wishful thinking about Lowndes and drivers of his ilk not being able to lap Monarco.

I'm not saying remove the safety features, but the stuff that automates normal driver functions.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on March 23, 2016, 07:44:25 pm
It's wishful thinking about Lowndes and drivers of his ilk not being able to lap Monarco.

Lowndes can lap monaco, but i'm telling you the difference in gap between the cars will be very much different to what the bathurst ones were.

Chances are Lowndes has at least driven Monaco on a computer game. I know i've done 1000's of laps around there.
Has Button ever seen Bathurst before?
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on March 24, 2016, 02:47:39 am
Has Button ever seen Bathurst before?

It doesn't explain 7 seconds, especially after both drivers had practice sessions..

FYI, Lowndes actually offered the same excuse for Button to the media, but behind the scenes sentiment was very different.  I know this because I have business associates who drive, engineer and manage one of the major domestic teams. Two of them spent almost a decade in F1 as part of a race crew. One was a chief engineer and the other a pit manager. As much as I appreciate your simulator experience I think I'll trust their opinion.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on March 24, 2016, 08:55:27 am
It doesn't explain 7 seconds, especially after both drivers had practice sessions..

FYI, Lowndes actually offered the same excuse for Button to the media, but behind the scenes sentiment was very different.  I know this because I have business associates who drive, engineer and manage one of the major domestic teams. Two of them spent almost a decade in F1 as part of a race crew. One was a chief engineer and the other a pit manager. As much as I appreciate your simulator experience I think I'll trust their opinion.

It doesn't explain 7 seconds? BS.

You mentioned Top gear in an earlier post.
Go back and watch the episode involving the nurburgring (well, one of a couple).
How much time does everyone shave off their times after their first times around there?
Once you get to know the track, time starts falling off.
Lowndes, if he is like most aussie drivers, has grown up watching bathurst his whole life and knows every inch of the track. You don't think thats worth 7 seconds compared to someone who has never even seen it? Keep in mind there is very little runoff areas to help you if something goes wrong.

BTW, Buttons driving style is somewhat conservative, easy on the tyres. Not used to throwing cars around like the V8 drivers
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on March 24, 2016, 11:25:47 am
It doesn't explain 7 seconds? BS.

You mentioned Top gear in an earlier post.
Go back and watch the episode involving the nurburgring (well, one of a couple).
How much time does everyone shave off their times after their first times around there?
Once you get to know the track, time starts falling off.
Lowndes, if he is like most aussie drivers, has grown up watching bathurst his whole life and knows every inch of the track. You don't think thats worth 7 seconds compared to someone who has never even seen it? Keep in mind there is very little runoff areas to help you if something goes wrong.

BTW, Buttons driving style is somewhat conservative, easy on the tyres. Not used to throwing cars around like the V8 drivers

Lets examine your claim.

Firstly you haven't explained why Lowndes and Button posted similar times in the F1 car(0.3s), but vastly different times in the V8(7s). Button is alleged to have got out of the V8 and said that the car was not drivable(I believe he said it was "A Pig", even under the light fuel loads they were using!)

Which sector did Button lose most of the 7 seconds, surely you are not claiming he lost it evenly across the track! If so where then?

I am not an expert and have never driven the course either in a car or on a game console. But even if you are a touring car champion in disguise I would then have to ask how your opinions can differ so greatly from my associate who is a Bathurst winner, So at this stage I can just ignore your comments and trust my associates. ;)
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Thryleon on March 24, 2016, 11:38:52 am
If your not using a car that sits so high off the ground, then you could easily lose that time.


The F1's downforces glue them to the track which make them handle much better than a V8.

There are your 7 seconds.

Lowndes would have found it easier driving the F1 car, than a V8 in the same way that a distance runner could run a sprint.

Get the sprinter to run distance and watch them fail.

That doesnt mean either is inferior superior, its simply a matter of what you get used to.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on March 24, 2016, 11:58:41 am
If your not using a car that sits so high off the ground, then you could easily lose that time.


The F1's downforces glue them to the track which make them handle much better than a V8.

There are your 7 seconds.

Lowndes would have found it easier driving the F1 car, than a V8 in the same way that a distance runner could run a sprint.

Get the sprinter to run distance and watch them fail.

That doesnt mean either is inferior superior, its simply a matter of what you get used to.

So where did the 7s go, if you are claiming down force was an issue it means the straights are out of the consideration, so now those 7s must have been across the top, so that becomes 7s out of what say 50s? It's an even bigger difference, you've made it look even worse for Button! :o

Keep in mind the F1 car they drove was modified to allow running at Bathurst, it was raised, so it had lower down force yet the driver lap times nearly matched. ;)

The sprint / distance analogy is irrelevant.

The people I know were shocked at the timings, they would have had access to splits that are not available in the public 3 sector timings. They were very diplomatic because one of their major sponsors was one of Buttons sponsors and the sponsor had arranged the whole gig.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on March 24, 2016, 12:44:50 pm
So where did the 7s go, if you are claiming down force was an issue it means the straights are out of the consideration, so now those 7s must have been across the top, so that becomes 7s out of what say 50s? It's an even bigger difference, you've made it look even worse for Button! :o

Keep in mind the F1 car they drove was modified to allow running at Bathurst, it was raised, so it had lower down force yet the driver lap times nearly matched. ;)

The sprint / distance analogy is irrelevant.

The people I know were shocked at the timings, they would have had access to splits that are not available in the public 3 sector timings. They were very diplomatic because one of their major sponsors was one of Buttons sponsors and the sponsor had arranged the whole gig.

Really? Still struggling with this.

Button drives
1. A V8 car that has next to no downforce compared to anything he has driven over the past 15 years.
2. He drives a MODIFIED F1 car that has less downforce than he is used to.
 - He drives them on a track he has never seen.
 - He drives themon a track that is extremely difficult and extremely unforgiving
Track experience 0/10
Car experience 1/5 (V8) and 3/5 (F1) = 4/10
TOTAL = 4/20

Lowndes drives...
1. His own V8 which he has been driving for 20 years setup to perfection to his liking
2. A MODIFIED F1 car that has more downforce than anything he has ever driven
 - He drives both on a track he has done 1000's of laps on if not 10,000's.
 - He knows every bump and every inch of that track. Where to push, when to hold steady.
Track experience 10/10
Car experience 5/5 and 1/5 = 6/10

TOTAL = 16/20

Where did button lose time? The same place lowndes made up time, top of the mountain....which in this case, includes everything from turn 2 to conrod.

There are blind turns and off camber turns over bumps all with a barrier inches from the tarmac. The toughest conditions for a driver to get up to speed in immediately.

Oh, so you know people who were shocked? Good for you. Perhaps after they sat down and realised that....
a) Button was at an extreme disadvantage compared to Lowndes
b) Button hasn't really got a lot to prove to the rev-heads on the mountain and would just be happy to walk away with his life in tact.

Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on March 24, 2016, 01:57:12 pm
Really? Still struggling with this.

Button drives
1. A V8 car that has next to no downforce compared to anything he has driven over the past 15 years.
2. He drives a MODIFIED F1 car that has less downforce than he is used to.
 - He drives them on a track he has never seen.
 - He drives themon a track that is extremely difficult and extremely unforgiving
Track experience 0/10
Car experience 1/5 (V8) and 3/5 (F1) = 4/10
TOTAL = 4/20

Lowndes drives...
1. His own V8 which he has been driving for 20 years setup to perfection to his liking
2. A MODIFIED F1 car that has more downforce than anything he has ever driven
 - He drives both on a track he has done 1000's of laps on if not 10,000's.
 - He knows every bump and every inch of that track. Where to push, when to hold steady.
Track experience 10/10
Car experience 5/5 and 1/5 = 6/10

TOTAL = 16/20

Where did button lose time? The same place lowndes made up time, top of the mountain....which in this case, includes everything from turn 2 to conrod.

There are blind turns and off camber turns over bumps all with a barrier inches from the tarmac. The toughest conditions for a driver to get up to speed in immediately.

Oh, so you know people who were shocked? Good for you. Perhaps after they sat down and realised that....
a) Button was at an extreme disadvantage compared to Lowndes
b) Button hasn't really got a lot to prove to the rev-heads on the mountain and would just be happy to walk away with his life in tact.

Nah cannot accept it, as I said I use to like watching it but I am just a novice in this regard. But the people I've heard this from are Bathurst winners or former F1 crew, and they have no reason to be questioning Button or any other F1 drivers for that matter. They expected a difference but not 7s! This Bathurst stuff all happened in a year when Button was 2nd, he was at the top of his game with McLaren-Mercedes.

All those other 4/20, 16/20 rankings you post are meaningless, plus even if they were useful you have cherry picked worst case data. I suppose that idea comes from those console games you play, I've seen my children adjusting car parameters in Super Mario Bros Racing just like that, were the kids give themselves a nuclear weapon and their opponent a spud gun!. But those rankings are made up they are not real!

I appreciate you might be defending a hero, but their abilities are only judged relative to each other, I think that is why Seb-the-Breaker and Alonso stood out for so long. When all things are equal those two are just that much better than the rest. Seb would drive the hardware to it's limit and if it broke it wasn't his fault. Alonso on the other hand is pure silk and cars go faster when he is in them, he looks to me to be the only current driver who might match up with a Lauder or Senna.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on March 24, 2016, 02:17:38 pm
You don't have to accept it. Doesn't make it wrong because you don't though.

Point i was making with the numbers is that being familiar with the track is as important as being familiar with the car. Especially at a place like Bathurst.

You are a self confessed novice. So when you talk about settings on mario kart i think novice is an overestimation.

There is a reason why F1 drivers do countless hours in a simulator. Playing those 'video games' to learn a track is a very helpful tool that can not be underestimated. These things are worth millions for a reason.
However, despite that, more than a couple of F1 drivers have openly said they have learned new tracks from the PS3/PS4 before arriving at a new circuit that has just been built.

Why do footy players practice a game plan? Why can't they simply study it on paper and execute it on game day?
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on March 24, 2016, 02:24:13 pm
You don't have to accept it. Doesn't make it wrong because you don't though.

Point i was making with the numbers is that being familiar with the track is as important as being familiar with the car. Especially at a place like Bathurst.

You are a self confessed novice. So when you talk about settings on mario kart i think novice is an overestimation.

There is a reason why F1 drivers do countless hours in a simulator. Playing those 'video games' to learn a track is a very helpful tool that can not be underestimated. These things are worth millions for a reason.
However, despite that, more than a couple of F1 drivers have openly said they have learned new tracks from the PS3/PS4 before arriving at a new circuit that has just been built.

Why do footy players practice a game plan? Why can't they simply study it on paper and execute it on game day?

True learning the new track is important.

Are you claiming Lowndes cannot drive an open wheeler on an empty track that he knows well?

Both drivers, that is both, smashed the Bathurst Lap record in the F1 within 0.3s of each other, while Button almost failed to qualify in the V8!

BTW, I've just checked with my associate. He tells me Button actually set the whole event up for Vodaphone and is a keen follower of Bathurst. He was going like a bat out of hell to beat Lowndes, he just wasn't quick enough!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on March 24, 2016, 02:44:12 pm
True learning the new track is important.

Are you claiming Lowndes cannot drive an open wheeler on an empty track that he knows well?

Both drivers, that is both, smashed the Bathurst Lap record in the F1 within 0.3s of each other, while Button almost failed to qualify in the V8!

BTW, I've just checked with my associate. He tells me Button actually set the whole event up for Vodaphone and is a keen follower of Bathurst. He was going like a bat out of hell to beat Lowndes, he just wasn't quick enough!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5Zeou2lxZI

Yes, button did know of the track in the above video.

Has he driven on it before? No.

He wasn't quick enough. No $hit. I've told you why that is the case!

What he did say in that video is that usually he can get a track within a few laps, but a track like this he needs at least half a day.
Oh, thats like exactly what i was saying.
Bathurst is simply a complete b!tch of a track to drive on. You need time to learn how to drive on it. He never had it. Lowndes did.

Quote
Are you claiming Lowndes cannot drive an open wheeler on an empty track that he knows well?
No, i have never suggested anything even remotely close to this.

I've met Craig Lowndes before, had a chat and got his autograph.
I've actually worked briefly with his brother.
I've got more respect for Lowndes than just about any other V8 driver in history.
This has got nothing to do with Lowndes.

I have no particularly affinity to Button.
It is not about him either.

The fact Lowndes could actually drive the thing to begin with is amazing.
The fact Button had the balls to go as fast as he did as soon as he did in both cars in extremely courageous.

The simple fact is, it is NOT a level playing field.

1 guy has his favourite car completely setup for his favourite track
1 guy has a car similar to his own but has never driven on the track before.
Swap and you still get
1 guy in a car that handles better than any car he's ever driven, on his favourite track.
1 guy in a car that handles worse than any car he's ever driven, on a track he's never driven before.

Do the same thing on a track they are equally adept at, say Albert Park, and it will be more of a level playing field.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on March 24, 2016, 02:58:14 pm
Kruddler, it's the magnitude of the difference that is important not the fact that there was a difference. As I understand it, really only 1/3 of the track is the important part, and in that 1/3 Button lost 7s. It cannot be shyness from Button, he drives at Monaco as you have pointed out which is as tight and as scary as any circuit they will ever encounter!

Anyway, you cannot change my opinions as they are formed from listening to industry insiders talk about it. And I am not qualified to argue the intricate details, I do not know them and I am not even sure they are publicly available. The figures released were through the event sponsor and are listed as unofficial. All I know is people involved with the teams and racing at the time had their media face on and were "Very Diplomatic" about the situation.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on March 24, 2016, 04:43:53 pm
Kruddler, it's the magnitude of the difference that is important not the fact that there was a difference. As I understand it, really only 1/3 of the track is the important part, and in that 1/3 Button lost 7s. It cannot be shyness from Button, he drives at Monaco as you have pointed out which is as tight and as scary as any circuit they will ever encounter!

Anyway, you cannot change my opinions as they are formed from listening to industry insiders talk about it. And I am not qualified to argue the intricate details, I do not know them and I am not even sure they are publicly available. The figures released were through the event sponsor and are listed as unofficial. All I know is people involved with the teams and racing at the time had their media face on and were "Very Diplomatic" about the situation.



Turn 2 to turn 18 is your 1/3.
Clear to see that there is SFA in the other 2/3's.

You call the difference 'shyness'?

Here is why Button might have some 'shyness'


Again, you learn the track before you push to the extreme. If you get something wrong, the above occurs.

You say button isn't shy around Monaco? No $hit....because he knows the track....which is why i said put lowndes around there given the same conditions and you won't see a 7s gap unless it's the other way.

So, your mates were suprised. Bully for them.
IF this magical times you speak of are correct, it is not surprising to me and are easily explainable as i've discussed. You don't know any better and simply listen to your mate. Good for you. Pass the above info onto them and see what they have to say about it
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on May 29, 2016, 10:07:58 pm
All we need for a perfect weekend is a Ricciardo win!

I think he is quite good in the wet, so he has a great chance if all goes well.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 29, 2016, 10:21:10 pm
All we need for a perfect weekend is a Ricciardo win!

I think he is quite good in the wet, so he has a great chance if all goes well.
Yep. My Fantasy Footy Team won also so yes Ricca wins the F1 and I'm happy. Would have also liked Chavez to win the Giro D'Italia for Orica Green Edge but that wasnt to be.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on May 29, 2016, 10:57:27 pm
Aw FFS RBR what were you thinking?
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 29, 2016, 11:03:47 pm
Aw FFS RBR what were you thinking?
Terrible. But he seems quicker than Lewis, should get passed.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on May 30, 2016, 06:44:16 pm
All we need for a perfect weekend is a Ricciardo win!

I think he is quite good in the wet, so he has a great chance if all goes well.

You had to jinx it!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on July 04, 2016, 08:10:13 am
Well, just to ensure the world is left without any doubt, Lewis Hamilton has proven himself to be a complete and utter ar5ewipe!

Is he the Monty Burns of F1?

Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 04, 2016, 11:59:19 am
Well, just to ensure the world is left without any doubt, Lewis Hamilton has proven himself to be a complete and utter ar5ewipe!

Is he the Monty Burns of F1?


I thought when I first saw it, the crash was 100% Rosbergs fault. Just read now Rosberg has been handed penalty for the causing the incident so there you go. He seems to panic and do stupid stuff every time Hamilton attacks him.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on July 04, 2016, 12:05:53 pm
I thought when I first saw it, the crash was 100% Rosbergs fault. Just read now Rosberg has been handed penalty for the causing the incident so there you go. He seems to panic and do stupid stuff every time Hamilton attacks him.

Just shows you there is politics in F1 as well.

The ten of thousands of fans booing Hamilton won't be appeased by a quick fix, I'd suggest that decision is more about patching up the appearance of the sport than getting it's ethics sorted out.

Just in time for the British GP! ;)
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on July 04, 2016, 07:57:05 pm
Well, just to ensure the world is left without any doubt, Lewis Hamilton has proven himself to be a complete and utter ar5ewipe!

Is he the Monty Burns of F1?



What did Lewis do wrong?

Just got through watching the race and i agree with Martin that it was 100% rosebergs fault.....well....part of which was his brakes failing him, but that has nothing to do with Hamilton who had no way of knowing this as the team said themselves that they couldn't tell the drivers.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on November 28, 2016, 10:15:13 am
What did Lewis do wrong?

Hamilton again proves himself to be an ar5ewipe!

Thankfully he didn't cause an incident in trying to back up Rosberg into the field.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on November 28, 2016, 07:48:13 pm
Hamilton again proves himself to be an ar5ewipe!

Thankfully he didn't cause an incident in trying to back up Rosberg into the field.

Not sure why you chose to bring up that quote in isolation.

FWIW, i don't like Lewis. But in that instance, (whatever it was i can't recall now) i didn't think he was at fault.

I don't agree with what Lewis did, but i can understand why he did it.

Either...
a) Help your teammate and take out all hope of winning the championship for yourself.
b) Force your teammate to work for the championship by backing him up. If he's good enough, he wins. If not, you win.

Not a good position to be in.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 28, 2016, 08:41:15 pm
This morning I woke up with a dilema, deciding who is the worst formula 1 world champ in history:
A: D Hill
B: J Button
C: N Rosberg

I think I'm leaning towards C
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on November 28, 2016, 08:47:07 pm
This morning I woke up with a dilema, deciding who is the worst formula 1 world champ in history:
A: D Hill
B: J Button
C: N Rosberg

I think I'm leaning towards C
Lock in 'a' eddie.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 03, 2016, 05:01:58 pm
Rosberg retires, weak as p!$$. Couldn't hack being Lewis's b!tch any longer. Take the trophy and run!!!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: cookie2 on December 03, 2016, 05:24:08 pm
This morning I woke up with a dilema, deciding who is the worst formula 1 world champ in history:
A: D Hill
B: J Button
C: N Rosberg

I think I'm leaning towards C

James Hunt would be up there, in his early years especially. (Hunt the Shunt!)
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 03, 2016, 07:01:53 pm
James Hunt would be up there, in his early years especially. (Hunt the Shunt!)
Yes but the thing with Hunt is that he epitomised the playboy racing car driver. Above that, he was a awfully talented and fast F1 driver. For these reasons, I wouldnt put him in the same class as the others.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: cookie2 on December 03, 2016, 07:20:39 pm
Yes but the thing with Hunt is that he epitomised the playboy racing car driver. Above that, he was a awfully talented and fast F1 driver. For these reasons, I wouldnt put him in the same class as the others.

I don't think some of the guys he took out in races would altogether agree with you GTC. He did get better as time went on but he was looked upon as a bit of a prat in his early years, AFAICR.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on December 04, 2016, 04:51:21 pm
Rosberg retires, weak as p!$$. Couldn't hack being Lewis's b!tch any longer. Take the trophy and run!!!

Geez GTC, did you back him to go back-to-back or something?

The real controversy is that Hamilton gets away with being an ar5ewipe penalty free!

As for worst driver, Villeneuve gets my vote, some people are just dead lucky at the misfortunes of those around them! That result would have been equivalent to Grosjean winning 2016.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 05, 2016, 01:07:35 pm
Geez GTC, did you back him to go back-to-back or something?

The real controversy is that Hamilton gets away with being an ar5ewipe penalty free!

As for worst driver, Villeneuve gets my vote, some people are just dead lucky at the misfortunes of those around them! That result would have been equivalent to Grosjean winning 2016.
Its funny you know, I reckon Nico is the ass whipe, not Hamilton. But there you go, different horses for different courses. I really enjoyed Lewis owning Nico for all these years. I guess Nico didnt enjoy it as much ;D JV may have been lucky but was also blindingly fast in a race car. Hamilton is the same, very fast and very consistent. I honestly hope Ferrari feck Vettel off to Merc and get Hamilton as I am a massive fan of Lewis. Would also like to see Baby Schuey at Ferrari but I fear Merc will nab him as early as next year (albeit to lock him away in their stable).
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on December 05, 2016, 01:31:37 pm
Its funny you know, I reckon Nico is the ass whipe, not Hamilton. But there you go, different horses for different courses. I really enjoyed Lewis owning Nico for all these years. I guess Nico didnt enjoy it as much ;D JV may have been lucky but was also blindingly fast in a race car. Hamilton is the same, very fast and very consistent. I honestly hope Ferrari feck Vettel off to Merc and get Hamilton as I am a massive fan of Lewis. Would also like to see Baby Schuey at Ferrari but I fear Merc will nab him as early as next year (albeit to lock him away in their stable).

The rumors are Hamilton remains on a knife edge and Ricciardo is in Mercedes sights.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on December 15, 2017, 02:55:49 pm
Bernie Ecclestone gone so F1 moves to ban grid tarts, I suppose they couldn't stop his daughters attending while he was still CEO, but they've found a way now!

Sorry, The Ashes has me in a foul mood!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 15, 2017, 04:04:28 pm
Bernie Ecclestone gone so F1 moves to ban grid tarts, I suppose they couldn't stop his daughters attending while he was still CEO, but they've found a way now!

Sorry, The Ashes has me in a foul mood!
More PC rubbish. Lots of female folk follow F1 so I guess they feel they need to show they are eliminating the sexism side of the sport. I know loads of woman who follow F1. They love the handsome young men in fast cars dont you worry about that.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on December 15, 2017, 05:17:31 pm
They love the handsome young men in fast cars, with heavy wallets, dont you worry about that.

But we mustn't talk about that! ;)
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: DJC on December 15, 2017, 07:15:55 pm
Bernie Ecclestone gone so F1 moves to ban grid tarts, I suppose they couldn't stop his daughters attending while he was still CEO, but they've found a way now!

Sorry, The Ashes has me in a foul mood!

I thought that was a typo LP and grid starts were to be banned.  I had visions of drivers sprinting to their cars as they did way back when.  I'm not a big fan of motor racing but I have spent many hours at speedways, Calder Park, Sandown and throwing up while trying to navigate in a Torana XU1 rally car.  While I don't mind admiring well put together folk, I'd rather see drivers busting their gut to get an advantage than superfluous folk parading around the race cars.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on June 13, 2018, 10:33:03 am
Brundle makes some sense, the AFL should take note about the effects of medaling with the rules and contrived competition.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/motor-sport/formula-one/martin-brundle-reflects-on-the-canadian-gp-and-what-we-can-expect-from-the-rest-of-2018/news-story/684db8cadf7e4357842be8bd2396ea0c
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on June 25, 2018, 02:23:43 pm
Seb "The Breaker" Vettel hard at it again over the weekend, when he retires from F1 he should start a wrecking business!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on August 04, 2018, 10:45:16 am
Good move by Ricciardo, he'll get a much fairer run now and hopefully a car to match.

Verstappen has infected Red Bull with his Euro dollars, Euro F1 inbreeding makes Tasmania look liberated!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 04, 2018, 01:18:16 pm
Good move by Ricciardo, he'll get a much fairer run now and hopefully a car to match.

Verstappen has infected Red Bull with his Euro dollars, Euro F1 inbreeding makes Tasmania look liberated!
I would have thought he would have ended up at McLaren.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on August 04, 2018, 02:05:56 pm
I would have thought he would have ended up at McLaren.

If 2 teams have the same engine, always go with the manufacturer team as they will get preferential treatment.

The renault team is the next best behind the big 3 in terms of results this season, despite not having a driver the calibre of Alonso in their car.

Good move IMO.

Its always said that its better to be the #1 driver in the #2 team, than the #2 driver in the #1 team.
Using that logic with the knowledge that Verstappen will get preferential treatment sooner or later at Red Bull, he would either be behind Hamilton, Vettel or Verstappen in the big 3, better off being the #1 in the 4th team.

I wonder if he can drag anyone along with him....Horner? Newey?
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 04, 2018, 02:19:43 pm
If 2 teams have the same engine, always go with the manufacturer team as they will get preferential treatment.

The renault team is the next best behind the big 3 in terms of results this season, despite not having a driver the calibre of Alonso in their car.

Good move IMO.

Its always said that its better to be the #1 driver in the #2 team, than the #2 driver in the #1 team.
Using that logic with the knowledge that Verstappen will get preferential treatment sooner or later at Red Bull, he would either be behind Hamilton, Vettel or Verstappen in the big 3, better off being the #1 in the 4th team.

I wonder if he can drag anyone along with him....Horner? Newey?
I agree it was a smart choice, just thought he would choose McLaren.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Thryleon on August 04, 2018, 02:38:20 pm
Yep.  Schumacher won his first championship in a benneton Renault then got signed by Ferrari.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on November 12, 2018, 04:36:55 pm
Ricciardo better off out of Red Bull with feckwits like Verstappen in the line up!

[flash=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/v/G2zfiiFSdMg[/flash]
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Sexybronco on November 12, 2018, 08:42:09 pm
Ricciardo better off out of Red Bull with feckwits like Verstappen in the line up!

[flash=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/v/G2zfiiFSdMg[/flash]
Not a fan of Verstappen but liked his reaction and post race interview. F1 is a ruthless cut throat business and he is as ruthless and bloody minded as they get, his decision not to let Ocon through may have been questionable but he is 100% clear on where he wants to be, a lot like Schuey, Senna and many others.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: malo on November 13, 2018, 08:20:23 am
Not a fan of Verstappen but liked his reaction and post race interview. F1 is a ruthless cut throat business and he is as ruthless and bloody minded as they get, his decision not to let Ocon through may have been questionable but he is 100% clear on where he wants to be, a lot like Schuey, Senna and many others.

Really ?  I thought he came across as a petulant, entitled little sh1t......which has been my take on him from the get go.

Maybe he'll mature one day.....but as someone who's followed motor racing for most of 40 years....and grew up listening to my Dad tell stories of watching the likes of Jim Clark, Jack Brabham, Graeme Hill, Bruce McLaren etc. racing around country roads in Northern Tassie.......the current f1 drivers for the most part leave me completely cold.

Maybe it's generational thing....but most of them just have no sort of engaging personality whatsoever.  Riccardo excepted.

Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: cookie2 on November 13, 2018, 09:03:35 am
I remember Jim Clark especially. He was a very technically correct and precise driver, not flashy but very quick. I read an article by some motoring journalist once where he was taken around one of the European circuits by Jim Clark in a sports car - Spa I think it was. He stated that it was like being out on a very fast country drive but it was completely under control at all times and he felt extremely safe and relaxed in the passenger seat. Clark himself was very relaxed and unruffled. When they had finished a timekeeper informed them that they had in fact broken the lap record for the vehicle class.
The danger was always there in those days though and Clark actually came unstuck and was killed in a fairly minor race in Germany. Some say it was driver error others that it was a tyre problem. Nevertheless, a great driver.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Sexybronco on November 13, 2018, 09:14:03 am
Really ?  I thought he came across as a petulant, entitled little sh1t......which has been my take on him from the get go.

Maybe he'll mature one day.....but as someone who's followed motor racing for most of 40 years....and grew up listening to my Dad tell stories of watching the likes of Jim Clark, Jack Brabham, Graeme Hill, Bruce McLaren etc. racing around country roads in Northern Tassie.......the current f1 drivers for the most part leave me completely cold.

Maybe it's generational thing....but most of them just have no sort of engaging personality whatsoever.  Riccardo excepted.
As I said I'm not a fan but boy he has a ruthless streak.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on November 13, 2018, 11:05:59 am
Really ?  I thought he came across as a petulant, entitled little sh1t......which has been my take on him from the get go.

Maybe he'll mature one day.....

In F1 that could be if he survives that long, it's not meant to be a demolition derby!

..............but as someone who's followed motor racing for most of 40 years....and grew up listening to my Dad tell stories of watching the likes of Jim Clark, Jack Brabham, Graeme Hill, Bruce McLaren etc. racing around country roads in Northern Tassie.......the current f1 drivers for the most part leave me completely cold.

Maybe it's generational thing....but most of them just have no sort of engaging personality whatsoever.  Riccardo excepted.

It's not generational, F1 teams learn little from blokes like Verstappen, Hamilton and Vettel, they are technical leeches and breakers. The guys doing the grunt work, the ones taking the team forward are guys like Alonso, Raikonnen and Ricciardo. They are the precision drivers of the sport, the ones the engineers turn to when they want reliable data and diagnosis.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on November 13, 2018, 05:20:06 pm
I remember Jim Clark especially. He was a very technically correct and precise driver, not flashy but very quick. I read an article by some motoring journalist once where he was taken around one of the European circuits by Jim Clark in a sports car - Spa I think it was. He stated that it was like being out on a very fast country drive but it was completely under control at all times and he felt extremely safe and relaxed in the passenger seat. Clark himself was very relaxed and unruffled. When they had finished a timekeeper informed them that they had in fact broken the lap record for the vehicle class.
The danger was always there in those days though and Clark actually came unstuck and was killed in a fairly minor race in Germany. Some say it was driver error others that it was a tyre problem. Nevertheless, a great driver.

What are your thoughts on Michael Schumacher Cookie?

A lot of people forget what he was like as a driver because his car was so good for a lot of his career. Most memories of him are winning races with a leg up in the air.

However, when push came to shove, he was as aggressive as anyone and used to spread his elbows and force others to decide if they were ready to have a crash or not.

Of course he had the respect that meant people jumped out of his way, but a saint behind the wheel he was not.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: cookie2 on November 13, 2018, 06:08:31 pm
What are your thoughts on Michael Schumacher Cookie?

A lot of people forget what he was like as a driver because his car was so good for a lot of his career. Most memories of him are winning races with a leg up in the air.

However, when push came to shove, he was as aggressive as anyone and used to spread his elbows and force others to decide if they were ready to have a crash or not.

Of course he had the respect that meant people jumped out of his way, but a saint behind the wheel he was not.

Obviously a very hard charger K, and you can't deny his success. However, not my favourite I'm afraid. I was brought up in the era of more gentlemanly behaviour and the likes of Shumacher don't appeal. Another "whatever it takes" merchant. He was a bully,  Jim Clark was a tough competitor but always a gent iirc. I guess it's a generational thing. Rose tinted specs may also be in play!  ;)


Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 13, 2018, 07:55:14 pm
Really ? I thought he came across as a petulant, entitled little sh1t......which has been my take on him from the get go.

Maybe he'll mature one day.....but as someone who's followed motor racing for most of 40 years....and grew up listening to my Dad tell stories of watching the likes of Jim Clark, Jack Brabham, Graeme Hill, Bruce McLaren etc. racing around country roads in Northern Tassie.......the current f1 drivers for the most part leave me completely cold.

Maybe it's generational thing....but most of them just have no sort of engaging personality whatsoever.  Riccardo excepted.
Agree 100% with the bold bit. FWIW, I dont like Ricciardo much either. He started off as your typical humble aussie sportsman in a world of fuel injected egos. He has quickly adapted and become one of them. For a bloke who has achieved two tenths of fark all (in terms of poles, wins and championships), he should get back to basics and STFU with the attitude. The champion drivers get down and dirty and help the team figure out problems with the car. Schumacher went to a dog of a team riddled with issues and worked his ass off to help get Ferrari back up to the top of the tree. Ricciardo chooses to sook up when the car breaks down and its why he'll never win a championship or be considered one of the all time greats.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on February 11, 2019, 11:16:56 am
Interesting to read Ricciardo's comments about being snubbed by Ferrari and Mercedes.

Ricciardo himself leaves it unstated, but it's pretty clear to F1 fans that this is more likely to be about the influence of the incumbents in those teams and not so much the choice of other drivers over Ricciardo.

Why would Vettel or Hamilton want any serious challenger when they can comfortably remain entrenched with a B-Grade team-mate, and why would those teams risk insulting those incumbents who bring in the big dollars?

In F1, money is the root of all evil!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: DJC on February 13, 2019, 07:42:35 pm
I recently saw an interesting F1 trivia item.

The South African army has a remote control mine detection vehicle that uses wheels and tyres left over from the South African Grand Prix.  Apparently, the wide, smooth tyres distribute the weight of the vehicle so that it doesn’t detonate mines or IEDs.

Can you imagine our armed forces, or those of our allies, making use of second hand kit, let alone in such an innovative way?

That’s about the extent of my interest in F1 ????
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on February 14, 2019, 08:32:00 am
I recently saw an interesting F1 trivia item.

The South African army has a remote control mine detection vehicle that uses wheels and tyres left over from the South African Grand Prix.  Apparently, the wide, smooth tyres distribute the weight of the vehicle so that it doesn’t detonate mines or IEDs.

Can you imagine our armed forces, or those of our allies, making use of second hand kit, let alone in such an innovative way?

That’s about the extent of my interest in F1 ????

I suspect it's not just the rubber but the carbon fibre rims, many modern IEDs targetting vehicles require both pressure and magnetic, they won't go off if your neighbours donkey steps on them! F1 would be a good source of cheap hardware for the researchers, because they make them so light a as a result relatively fragile they basically throw away the rims after a race due to the risk of fatigue failure.

I've worked in a group that did some of the R&D with Deakin Uni for a Geelong company called Carbon Evolution, and I know they have blast tested ruggidised versions for light transport vehicles like Troupies and the Hawkei / Bushmaster / Marauder type armoured trucks. You can read a bit here, http://www.carbonrev.com/motorsports
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on July 20, 2020, 11:36:01 am
Interesting to read Hamilton has equalled or is about to equal a bunch of Schumacher's records.

Hamilton is probably the best of the bunch at the moment, and he has maintained a long period of tenancy in the fastest car, which means he betters his team-mates regularly. Does that make Hamilton the driver equal of Schumacher, Senna or some other greats?

I do realise there was a lot of politics in the Schumacher era, but I don't think there is any less now, it's just delivered differently.

I'm not sure modern F1 is a true measure of driver, for me there is too much remote control influenced by engineers and technology, technology that allows cars to be reconfigured on the fly. I preferred the old days, when how a car left the grid was how the car performed, all configured and setup in advance.

I particularly dislike drivers begging over the radio mid-race for permission to dial up more power.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 20, 2020, 12:22:20 pm
Interesting to read Hamilton has equalled or is about to equal a bunch of Schumacher's records.

Hamilton is probably the best of the bunch at the moment, and he has maintained a long period of tenancy in the fastest car, which means he betters his team-mates regularly. Does that make Hamilton the driver equal of Schumacher, Senna or some other greats?

I do realise there was a lot of politics in the Schumacher era, but I don't think there is any less now, it's just delivered differently.

I'm not sure modern F1 is a true measure of driver, for me there is too much remote control influenced by engineers and technology, technology that allows cars to be reconfigured on the fly. I preferred the old days, when how a car left the grid was how the car performed, all configured and setup in advance.

I particularly dislike drivers begging over the radio mid-race for permission to dial up more power.
Agree in part, it still takes a hell of a lot of skill to drive these things, they are so blisteringly fast compared to the older cars which despite being very loud, are not a patch on these hybrid ones speed wise. Hamilton as driver is as good as there has ever been, he is clean and fast when he needs to be. He is a master at qualifying and rarely crashes. I understand he is in the best car but there has always been another guy in the same car and he has shown them a clean pair of heals. He is also a racer and by that, I mean he can negotiate his way through the field when he finds himself at the back. Someone like Damon Hill for example was blisteringly fast but could negotiate an F1 car in traffic to save himself. A front runner.
As a person, he is giving me the s h i t s with his BLM stuff in the way that he is cracking it with the drivers who wont take a knee. He is acting like a spoiled brat which is is turning me off. Spose Ill be branded racist for not agreeing with him.
By the way, its interesting to hear him take this so very seriously and be so vocal about statues symbolizing racism being torn down
 and thrown in rivers yet he happily takes cheques from Mercedes and Hugo Boss  (plastered all over his clothing) who have chequered pasts with respect to use of slave labour.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Thryleon on July 20, 2020, 01:10:03 pm
Interesting to read Hamilton has equalled or is about to equal a bunch of Schumacher's records.

Hamilton is probably the best of the bunch at the moment, and he has maintained a long period of tenancy in the fastest car, which means he betters his team-mates regularly. Does that make Hamilton the driver equal of Schumacher, Senna or some other greats?

I do realise there was a lot of politics in the Schumacher era, but I don't think there is any less now, it's just delivered differently.

I'm not sure modern F1 is a true measure of driver, for me there is too much remote control influenced by engineers and technology, technology that allows cars to be reconfigured on the fly. I preferred the old days, when how a car left the grid was how the car performed, all configured and setup in advance.

I particularly dislike drivers begging over the radio mid-race for permission to dial up more power.

I think you'll find this one is about fuel consumption and strategy rather than anything else, but you are right based on everything else.

Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on July 20, 2020, 05:19:53 pm
re Hamilton breaking records....
Noone can doubt he is a great driver.

There are more races in a season now.
So if you have a good car, you can rack up more wins, podiums etc in any given year now than in schumachers era.

As a result, its not really apples and apples
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: dodge on July 20, 2020, 06:07:56 pm
Engine being turned up & down is also because they only have a certain number of engines they can use in a season without being penalised so don't want them to break early.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on July 20, 2020, 06:13:13 pm
Engine being turned up & down is also because they only have a certain number of engines they can use in a season without being penalised so don't want them to break early.

Correct.

Its no longer push push push.
Its all about 'manage, manage, manage'. Engine, tyres, fuel.....  ::)
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on July 21, 2020, 08:07:37 am
Correct.

Its no longer push push push.
Its all about 'manage, manage, manage'. Engine, tyres, fuel.....  ::)
But that is my point, drivers running cars at 100% for 5 seconds stride past cars being managed at 90%, ............ and get lauded for overtaking prowess!

Then the same driver is being managed at 90% can't get past a back marker and spends 5 minutes begging for permission to turn the power back up ...................... it almost feels like a fraud!

How can anyone make any worthwhile value judgement about driver skills when a 3rd party not even in the car has such variable influence across a race?
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: cookie2 on July 21, 2020, 08:46:24 am
I wonder what Fangio or Nuvolari would make of all of this, looking down?
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 21, 2020, 09:44:28 am
I wonder what Fangio or Nuvolari would make of all of this, looking down?
Interesting reading an article  on Todt visiting Schuey last week. He said its hard to compare drivers from different eras to determine who is the best ever. Schuey is the most successful at present with 7 WC's until Ham passes him. But yes, Fangio, Nuvolari, Ascari, Moss, Hill, Surtees, Villenueve  et al will be looking down, with their balls of steel in a cupped hand, smirking at the nancy boys of today.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on July 21, 2020, 10:58:58 am
I understand the sentiment, but the olden days argument is a bit like saying Airbags......Pffft!

It's a very hard question to answer, I think the safety and technological upgrades are good, but the contest should be strictly and rigorously limited to the drivers.

I suspect the only thing allowing F1 to persist, the thing stopping alternatives from rising, are the legal and contractual barriers that it wields with a big $stick.

It's interesting, that apparently there was a survey last season or the season before, polling F1 drivers, and they almost universally agreed that Carting is the pinnacle of motor sport as a raw measure of ability. In this I read between the lines, and infer that F1 is the reward you get for being among the best at Carting.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 21, 2020, 12:14:52 pm
I understand the sentiment, but the olden days argument is a bit like saying Airbags......Pffft!

It's a very hard question to answer, I think the safety and technological upgrades are good, but the contest should be strictly and rigorously limited to the drivers.

I suspect the only thing allowing F1 to persist, the thing stopping alternatives from rising, are the legal and contractual barriers that it wields with a big $stick.

It's interesting, that apparently there was a survey last season or the season before, polling F1 drivers, and they almost universally agreed that Carting is the pinnacle of motor sport as a raw measure of ability. In this I read between the lines, and infer that F1 is the reward you get for being among the best at Carting.
Carting is pure, no driver aids, equal (or as close as fark is to swearing) equipment. Man to man combat on wheels, driver weight being the only real problem. Im ok with the safety items in F1 such as the HALO and stuff, Jules Bianchi would still be here if they were introduced a few years earlier. I would love F1 to have more parity and really see the drivers go toe to toe.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: cookie2 on July 21, 2020, 12:25:32 pm
Safety issues are one thing, no problems there. The car being part driven from a control center in the pits is quite something else afaic.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on November 19, 2020, 11:09:53 am
I don't get the drivers complaining about the Turkish GP's lack of track grip, it'was the same for everyone and a great spectacle to watch.

Hamilton proved he's the best, the best won on a day when the effects of the car technology was greatly diminished, even more exciting those less skill at driving but more skilled at the use of technology were exposed as frauds!

The complaining drivers come across as spoiled brats, they just want a track that allows them to go foot to the floor 90% of the time through straight or curve, skill-less boring drivel for 2hrs then collect a big pay cheque!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on November 19, 2020, 03:51:19 pm
I don't get the drivers complaining about the Turkish GP's lack of track grip, it'was the same for everyone and a great spectacle to watch.

Hamilton proved he's the best, the best won on a day when the effects of the car technology was greatly diminished, even more exciting those less skill at driving but more skilled at the use of technology were exposed as frauds!

The complaining drivers come across as spoiled brats, they just want a track that allows them to go foot to the floor 90% of the time through straight or curve, skill-less boring drivel for 2hrs then collect a big pay cheque!

As usual you fail to provide a link to what you are referring too.

From what i understand is that the track was slippery even when dry as it had just been resurfaced.....and done more slippery than normal.
Add to that there is usually a lot of rubbering in of tracks before f1 cars get on there (which did not occur here) and you'll see why there is a bit of an issue.

The fact that it rained all weekend just compounded the issues 10-fold.

Why would they be complaining?
Maybe its got something to do with driving cars that go 300mph and can kill them?
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on November 19, 2020, 04:02:36 pm
Why would they be complaining?
Maybe its got something to do with driving cars that go 300mph and can kill them?
My bad sorry about the lack of links, I just presumed someone interested in the sport and wishing to comment would be up to speed on the latest news.

There is no rule in Motorsport that says the track must permit the maximum theoretical speed limit for a car, or require circulation at full throttle, none at all, so the engineers put in some devices to regulate that speed, a gearbox, accelerator and a brake, all controlled by the highly skilled driver! If the driver is stupid enough or lacks the ability to control that outcome they don't belong in racing, and complaining about the conditions only makes them look petty!

Hamilton finished the race on bald intermediate tyres, despite segments of the track still being covered in surface water, while others including his team-mate in an identical car and Ricciardo who couldn't stay on the track at times even with fresh full wets!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on November 19, 2020, 04:08:31 pm
My bad sorry about the lack of links, I just presumed someone interested in the sport and wishing to comment would be up to speed on the latest news.

Right back at you. All of this was covered in depth in the coverage. I guess you didn't watch it.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 19, 2020, 06:58:39 pm
Some these modern drivers make me laugh, I call them steering wheel attendants. Hamilton was heard asking his race engineer if his tyres would last to the end of the race. Senna, Schuey, Prost et al would never ask such
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on November 19, 2020, 07:34:28 pm
Some these modern drivers make me laugh, I call them steering wheel attendants. Hamilton was heard asking his race engineer if his tyres would last to the end of the race. Senna, Schuey, Prost et al would never ask such

I get your point, and the answer is clearly no. However, if they were to ask, they would not get an answer because they wouldn't know.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 19, 2020, 08:41:33 pm
I get your point, and the answer is clearly no. However, if they were to ask, they would not get an answer because they wouldn't know.
Hamilton is fast and clean, rarely crashes. But he come across as a dumb ass with zero mechanical aptitude. Like the character Cole Trickle in Days of Thunder. Top line race car drivers "feel" the car and know what every corner is doing, what the engine and gearbox is doing. The legends I mentioned earlier could get a car home with three wheels, stuck in top gear, etc. If that happened to one of these young bozos (Ham included), they wouldnt know what to do other than throw the toys out of the cockpit and have a good cry.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: dodge on November 19, 2020, 08:58:09 pm
They wouldn't be allowed to try to get a car home with three wheels, stuck in third gear.  Their teams would force them to stop to ensure nothing further goes wrong in case they face penalties for replacing engines, gearboxes etc.  Trying to limp home doesn't have many benefits.

The racing this year has been good to watch, with several new circuits and not knowing which cars are going to go well on what circuit, some weekends not having the Friday practice.  Within races, there has generally been quite a bit of overtaking - a few exceptions.

As we know from footy, comparing eras and drivers is pretty hard, particularly as it is the combination of car + driver that makes a difference.

Have technology changes made racing better?  Certainly faster and safer, but less 'natural' overtaking (need DRS - even that doesn't help on some circuits).  Wet weather racing, like footy, often brings out the best.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on November 19, 2020, 09:04:27 pm
Hamilton is fast and clean, rarely crashes. But he come across as a dumb ass with zero mechanical aptitude. Like the character Cole Trickle in Days of Thunder. Top line race car drivers "feel" the car and know what every corner is doing, what the engine and gearbox is doing. The legends I mentioned earlier could get a car home with three wheels, stuck in top gear, etc. If that happened to one of these young bozos (Ham included), they wouldnt know what to do other than throw the toys out of the cockpit and have a good cry.

I'm not Hamiltons biggest fan, but credit where credit is due. He drove his car home on 3 wheels just this year.
He managed to deal with the conditions better than anyone else, despite (for once) not having the best car. Racing point did.

There's a good example of what you are talking about in Rush. The Hunt/Lauda movie.
Niki Lauda jumps in a $hitbox car from a female companion and uses his a$$ to tell that the suspension is shot despite her insistance it just had a service.

I get it, and i agree.

But by the same token, Lauda pulled over mid-race and stopped his car because conditions were too terrible. He lost the championship by a point because of it. No mention of him being a primadonna?

What has changed?
1. Technology
2. Less bravado
3. More brains.

Talent? Debatable. It is a different talent. Modern day drivers are more managers of their cars now.
But....don't forget, the modern F1 driver are still coming through Karts and the lower formulas just like your yesteryear heroes did. They still learn to drive the same thing, the same way.
Just this week i saw a 13 (?) yo Hamilton win a karting race coming from last to first in something like 6 laps. Most of the other racers were 15 or so.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on November 19, 2020, 09:07:09 pm
Have technology changes made racing better?  Certainly faster and safer, but less 'natural' overtaking (need DRS - even that doesn't help on some circuits).  Wet weather racing, like footy, often brings out the best.

This is the problem. Technology has made things faster....its all about downforce to assist with speed and cornering. Improved downforce is the enemy of good overtaking.

Year after year they try to reduce downforce to assist in overtaking. However we are so far advanced than what we were decades ago, that we can never go back and need 'assists' to facilitate overtaking.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on November 20, 2020, 08:08:12 am
Hamilton is fast and clean, rarely crashes. 
I haven't always been a fan because the whining, but what he did in those conditions last weekend set him apart from all other drivers.

The proof is in the pudding and he turned slop into a souffle.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on November 20, 2020, 08:11:19 am
Right back at you. All of this was covered in depth in the coverage. I guess you didn't watch it.
I don't care what the coverage specialists state, they are mostly butt lickers protecting their jobs and making sure the drivers will talk to them post race!

Watch those F1 drivers bitching post race, having been defeated by Hamilton who was driving on bald tyres, then re-run old footage of Brock coming through the chase on old tyres in the rain on the last lap at Bathurst while calmly talking to the TV broadcast crew as he set the lap record!

The drivers whining is very analogous to Danger bitching about reduced interchange, nobody wants peak sport to be a doddle, nobody has the right to monopolise spots on a list, except the people already in there it seems!

They don't get millions for going through the motion, nobody should, if they keep pushing sport in that direction they be replaced by robots, and you can marvel at machines that shoot a thousand consecutive 3 pointers without missing one!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on December 03, 2020, 06:36:16 pm
No comments on Romain Grosjean defying the laws of physics to escape, essentially, uninjured from his freak accident?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ7_En2xEm4

Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on December 03, 2020, 06:40:28 pm
If that doesn't float your boat, what about George Russell taking over for Lewis Hamilton (covid) in the all conquering Mercedes this weekend?

For once we will see the difference between a good driver in a $hit car (Williams) and a good driver in the best car.

I believe Russell is up to something like 34-0 in terms of outqualifying his teammate in his career thus far. Lets see if he can outqualify the more than competent Valteri Bottas this weekend.

The only thing i don't like about this swap is that Russell needs to get his head around the dual-axis steering that is unique to the mercedes. I'm not sure it will be the fair comparison we want it to be as surely that takes 100's laps to get the hang of. But we'll see.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 03, 2020, 08:26:26 pm
If that doesn't float your boat, what about George Russell taking over for Lewis Hamilton (covid) in the all conquering Mercedes this weekend?

For once we will see the difference between a good driver in a $hit car (Williams) and a good driver in the best car.

I believe Russell is up to something like 34-0 in terms of outqualifying his teammate in his career thus far. Lets see if he can outqualify the more than competent Valteri Bottas this weekend.

The only thing i don't like about this swap is that Russell needs to get his head around the dual-axis steering that is unique to the mercedes. I'm not sure it will be the fair comparison we want it to be as surely that takes 100's laps to get the hang of. But we'll see.
The English Sky commentary team biased towards an ordinary (at best) driver like George Russell is sickening. Mr Saturday, Senna would be turning in his grave. 34-0 you say against his team mate, bahahahahaha. That would be like me out squatting my grandmother 34 days in a row. This Muppet wouldn't tie Hamilton's bootlaces. Any wonder I watch F1 with the volume down these days.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on December 03, 2020, 09:14:09 pm
The English Sky commentary team biased towards an ordinary (at best) driver like George Russell is sickening. Mr Saturday, Senna would be turning in his grave. 34-0 you say against his team mate, bahahahahaha. That would be like me out squatting my grandmother 34 days in a row. This Muppet wouldn't tie Hamilton's bootlaces. Any wonder I watch F1 with the volume down these days.

Why do you say he is ordinary?

Simply because he doesn't score points on race day?

Thats like you driving your grandmothers car against a V8 supercar and wondering why you can't get near them.

Modern f1 is all about the car, which is why Russell appears to be 'ordinary'.
He has outperformed mutiple time world champion Vettel during qualifying on numerous occasions. You don't do that by accident, especially in the Williams. If you wanna see how good a driver is, compare him against his teammate in the same car. Not just by outqualifying him, but where he finishes on race day by comparison.

I was sceptical initially, but his results cannot be argued with. I think he'll surprise you.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on December 03, 2020, 09:35:40 pm
Russell is a good driver, but I doubt he'll do much in one week in a car he is new to.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 03, 2020, 09:38:46 pm
Russell is a good driver, but I doubt he'll do much in one week in a car he is new to.
Of the young crop, there is Le Clerc, Norris and then daylight.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on December 03, 2020, 09:39:25 pm
Russell is a good driver, but I doubt he'll do much in one week in a car he is new to.
If he finishes, it will be in the points.

Its just a matter of how high.

Of all cars to drive, the mercedes would be the steepest learning curve with its DAS.

If he gets anywhere near Bottas in qualifying, he has proven plenty.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: dodge on December 04, 2020, 12:53:41 am
It would just prove that Bottas is lucky he's in the car he is - Hamilton likes Bottas because he is no threat at all,  yet the car is the same

Grosjean is very lucky.   While there is no doubt the halo saved him, having the medics so close on hand had to have helped.   Scary stuff.

It was good that the coverage didn't show anything further until they knew he was out of danger.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on December 04, 2020, 07:15:32 am
It would just prove that Bottas is lucky he's in the car he is - Hamilton likes Bottas because he is no threat at all,  yet the car is the same

Grosjean is very lucky.   While there is no doubt the halo saved him, having the medics so close on hand had to have helped.   Scary stuff.

It was good that the coverage didn't show anything further until they knew he was out of danger.

Was Rosberg lucky he was in the same car as Hamilton? He is the only bloke who has been able to beat him for the title. Bottas is not up to the same standard as Hamilton, nobody is, but he's no slouch.

In order to get into F1 you have to be a good driver....even if you pay for your own drive, you still have to be a good driver. The majority of the blokes who are there have won championships upon championships since they were like 6yo's in carts. The notion of being lucky or a crap driver is ignoring what it takes to get there.

re grosjean...
That is the reason the medical car starts at the back of the grid for each race, its the fastest way to get them to the scene of an accident quickly....and there are more accidents on lap 1 than any other lap.

How Grosjean was able to stay conscious despite being put through 50G+ of stopping force is a miracle in itself. That, along with the halo, is the reason he is alive.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on December 04, 2020, 08:09:54 am
The only measure in F1 worth noting is being measured against a team-mate, sometimes team politics will cloud the issue.

Every other measure is about the cars not the drivers.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: dodge on December 04, 2020, 09:07:42 am
Hamilton certainly didn't like Rosberg beating him - he was a threat.  It doesn't appear to work well when both drivers are close in ability with the same car - particularly if the car is good enough to challenge for the title.  That Bottas is no threat means that Hamilton and Mercedes can just go about their business without internal politics taking over too much, but still know that they both cars will finish in the top four just about every race.

Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on December 05, 2020, 08:36:24 pm
Russell is a good driver, but I doubt he'll do much in one week in a car he is new to.

Practice 1 - Fastest - Russell
Practice 2 - Fastest - Russell

....not bad for just a 'good' or 'ordinary' driver
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Mick04 on December 05, 2020, 10:29:26 pm
back him in for the win.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 06, 2020, 11:58:38 am
Well I guess Russell qualifying 2nd puts an end to the Hamilton vs Schumacher/Senna debate.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on December 06, 2020, 12:54:31 pm
Russell is a good driver, it'll be interesting to see how he goes tomorrow.

Leclerc was probably qualifying king today, but I doubt he has the car to finish on the podium.

I think Bottas should be favourite, he got pole while looking like he was driving at half-rat pace, he was virtually 100% between the lines!

I wouldn't write off Verstappen on the short track, tyre life on this track could be king.

But the key to short track racing is making no mistakes, when so many drivers are separated by hundredths losing a tenth somewhere has much more impact than usual. Although it's not a good passing venue. It's a pity we do not see more short tracks.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on December 06, 2020, 07:00:45 pm
Mr Saturday finally gets beaten, and its by the blink of an eye by a bloke who has driven the same car he just stepped into for years.

Now Bottas is not a great starter and he is not a great overtaker. Russell is a bit of an unknown in that regard because his car has never been good enough.

To me i think Verstappen is the one to watch. His car is good enough, he has the aggressive driving style to make the passes on the short track. If he can keep his calm, he'll be on the podium, potentially the top step.

A wildcard for you is Danny Ric. He can look after his tyres as good as anyone and that should allow him to stay out longer and gain places while people are in the pits.....and we know he can overtake with the best of them. He'll get plenty of chances here. Hopefully his car is up for the challenge.

Don't discount the racing points too. If they can stay on track, they'll both be top 6 IMO.

Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on December 06, 2020, 11:05:07 pm
A wildcard for you is Danny Ric. 
Late braking might be the only way to pass!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on December 07, 2020, 07:37:39 pm
Mr Saturday finally gets beaten, and its by the blink of an eye by a bloke who has driven the same car he just stepped into for years.

Now Bottas is not a great starter and he is not a great overtaker. Russell is a bit of an unknown in that regard because his car has never been good enough.

To me i think Verstappen is the one to watch. His car is good enough, he has the aggressive driving style to make the passes on the short track. If he can keep his calm, he'll be on the podium, potentially the top step.

A wildcard for you is Danny Ric. He can look after his tyres as good as anyone and that should allow him to stay out longer and gain places while people are in the pits.....and we know he can overtake with the best of them. He'll get plenty of chances here. Hopefully his car is up for the challenge.

Don't discount the racing points too. If they can stay on track, they'll both be top 6 IMO.



I underestimated them. Both top 3!

In fairness, if Mercedes didn't shoot themselves in the foot......and verstappen was a victim of circumstance. They would've been 4th and 6th.

Anyone doubting Russell ability now is kidding themselves.

If i was Mercedes i'd be signing him up now to take over from Bottas ASAP. He has 1 year to go, so get Russell in the car with Hamilton in 2022.

Poor Checo Perez still doesn't have a drive for 2021, i'd be giving him Albons spot in the 2nd red bull.

One of the great races!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: dodge on December 08, 2020, 12:41:53 am
Imagine the press if it was Hamilton not Russell that got the wrong tyres.  What a stuff up!

Russell won't be at Mercedes if Hamilton is, particularly if Hamilton has any input.

Hate to be Russell and have to go back to a Williams this weekend.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on May 06, 2021, 09:09:17 am
I think politically McLaren have pulled the pin on Ricciardo, they have seen what Brit Lando Norris can do with the car "as is", Lando being a Brit doesn't help Ricciardo.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 06, 2021, 12:13:34 pm
I think politically McLaren have pulled the pin on Ricciardo, they have seen what Brit Lando Norris can do with the car "as is", Lando being a Brit doesn't help Ricciardo.
The joys of Formula 1 politics
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on May 06, 2021, 01:01:10 pm
I think politically McLaren have pulled the pin on Ricciardo, they have seen what Brit Lando Norris can do with the car "as is", Lando being a Brit doesn't help Ricciardo.
Same was being said when Danny ric started at Renault. Halfway through the year, he got the car sorted and away he went.

How many days did Ricciardo get in pre season testing?
1.5 days. That's it.
Then, bang, race weekend.

First race he had damage to the floor which hurt him.
Last race they stuffed up a pit stop that made him have to fight for a spot he already had.
Things haven't gone his way yet, but it's way too early to make any long term calls. Let him settle in first.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on May 06, 2021, 01:08:36 pm
Same was being said when Danny ric started at Renault. Halfway through the year, he got the car sorted and away he went.

How many days did Ricciardo get in pre season testing?
1.5 days. That's it.
Then, bang, race weekend.

First race he had damage to the floor which hurt him.
Last race they stuffed up a pit stop that made him have to fight for a spot he already had.
Things haven't gone his way yet, but it's way too early to make any long term calls. Let him settle in first.
It's a level playing field and despite all the excuses you want to make the public comments from the McLaren management can't be ignored. They responded to Ricciardo's claims of problems at the weekend and said it was primarily Ricciardo's fault due to mistakes in practise, qualifying and race.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on May 06, 2021, 07:24:14 pm
It's a level playing field and despite all the excuses you want to make the public comments from the McLaren management can't be ignored. They responded to Ricciardo's claims of problems at the weekend and said it was primarily Ricciardo's fault due to mistakes in practise, qualifying and race.

Its not a level playing field though.

Norris has been at McLaren for a while now. Ricciardo has just walked in the door. His team wouldn't even know how to setup the car the way he wants yet. Ricciardo might not even be able to get articulate what he wants from his engineers to get him what he wants.

Norris doesn't have any of those issues.

In football terms, Danny Ric is the new recruit who is trying to work out which of his teammates is a left footer and which players will chase and cover for him. Norris is club captain and has everyone on the same page.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 06, 2021, 07:44:27 pm
Ricciardo overrated and full of himself, can't stand him.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on May 06, 2021, 07:46:52 pm
Ricciardo overrated and full of himself, can't stand him.
Its called confidence.

The F1 drivers nominated the best drivers on the grid last year.
1. Hamilton
2. Verstappen
3. Ricciardo

FWIW, Bottas didn't make the top 10.

Ricciardo can drive, just give him half a season to settle in and results will follow later in the year, bookmark it. ;)
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 06, 2021, 07:58:08 pm
Its called confidence.

The F1 drivers nominated the best drivers on the grid last year.
1. Hamilton
2. Verstappen
3. Ricciardo

FWIW, Bottas didn't make the top 10.

Ricciardo can drive, just give him half a season to settle in and results will follow later in the year, bookmark it. ;)
Ill stick to my rating.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on May 10, 2021, 08:03:57 pm
So.....Danny Ric outperforms Norris....easily during the race.

*crickets*
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on May 11, 2021, 08:01:00 am
So.....Danny Ric outperforms Norris....easily during the race.

*crickets*
You could be confusing a single swing of the pendulum with the marking of time.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on May 11, 2021, 10:43:08 am
Or is just as I described, Ricciardo well get better the more time he spends in the car.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 23, 2021, 10:58:31 pm
Ferrari are a rabble
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on May 24, 2021, 09:21:32 am
The end is nigh!

https://youtu.be/fvziDes6kr0?t=5
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on May 30, 2021, 12:09:58 pm
The end is nigh!

https://youtu.be/fvziDes6kr0?t=5
So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Like many, you are ignoring context.

Norris waves to everybody that lets him through. Just because the bloke he passed was in the same car, people lose their minds.

Ricciardos greatest strength is late breaking. That is where he gets most of his overtakes from....and he is one of the best on the grid in overtaking. However, the McLaren doesn't seem to be as stable as he'd like under breaking and that is where he is struggling.
All this talk about his driving style hinges around that.

The McLaren, traditionally, has been about high end speed at the expense of cornering speed.
Looking at the speed trap data, this continues to be true. https://f1i.com/news/400883-bahrain-speed-trap-who-is-the-fastest-of-them-all-3.html
@Bahrain, Ricciardo was 3rd fastest in the speed trap at the start/finish line and 8th fastest at the other speed trap.
Interestingly, he was ahead of Norris in both.
More interestingly, he was behind the crap teams like Haas and Williams....both of which have similar issues with cornering at pace.

Danny Ric and McLaren need to work out some kind of compromise for the benefit of eachother.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on May 30, 2021, 12:26:36 pm
Danny Ric and McLaren need to work out some kind of compromise for the benefit of each other.
That reads more like a prayer rather than a strategy.

I'm a Ricciardo booster, he is known as "The last of the late brakers", a style of driving I admire, why he and Alonso are my among my favourites.

He has a McLaren car with known high end straight line speed and strong braking, a car they(the experts) thought suited his driving style to perfection.

But this year he can't get past anybody!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on May 30, 2021, 02:43:39 pm
That reads more like a prayer rather than a strategy.

I'm a Ricciardo booster, he is known as "The last of the late brakers", a style of driving I admire, why he and Alonso are my among my favourites.

He has a McLaren car with known high end straight line speed and strong braking, a car they(the experts) thought suited his driving style to perfection.

But this year he can't get past anybody!
The 'experts' are similar to the 'experts' of AFL footy.
Imagine asking BT's for his expert AFL on matters.  :-[

Its relatively simple aerodynamics tradeoff. The faster the car in the straight, the slower the car in the corners.

The McLaren has always been that way, going back to the Senna days. McLaren was the fastest. The Ferrari was the best in corners and the Williams was bang in the middle of both. Made for good racing.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on June 28, 2021, 12:16:28 pm
Unfortunately for Ricciardo, there are more signs from the weekend he is losing the top support of his team. It's no accident weird little things keep going wrong with his race, it's all about being the team's B option.

You get the 2nd best engineers, the 2nd best parts, the 2nd best tyres, the 2nd best strategy, it all has an impact. 

He would have expected to arrive at McLaren as the A option, it'll be very hard for him to regain that ground now which is a bit sad, because it looks like when it is all equal he's as quick as ever.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on June 28, 2021, 08:35:34 pm
Unfortunately for Ricciardo, there are more signs from the weekend he is losing the top support of his team. It's no accident weird little things keep going wrong with his race, it's all about being the team's B option.

You get the 2nd best engineers, the 2nd best parts, the 2nd best tyres, the 2nd best strategy, it all has an impact.

He would have expected to arrive at McLaren as the A option, it'll be very hard for him to regain that ground now which is a bit sad, because it looks like when it is all equal he's as quick as ever.

Things happen. There is a 50% chance that it will happen to him. Just because it does, it doesn't mean its because he is the 2nd driver.

You remind me of the guys you so often take aim at. Robbo and co with their sensationalist journalism.

Nothing to see here.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on June 28, 2021, 08:37:40 pm
Things happen. There is a 50% chance that it will happen to him. Just because it does, it doesn't mean its because he is the 2nd driver.

You remind me of the guys you so often take aim at. Robbo and co with their sensationalist journalism.

Nothing to see here.
Or you are in denial about the end approaching for Daniel, the drums are beating once the specialists starting talking about your issues and they are all over him at the moment. It's a brutal business.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on June 29, 2021, 08:18:57 pm
Or you are in denial about the end approaching for Daniel, the drums are beating once the specialists starting talking about your issues and they are all over him at the moment. It's a brutal business.
As i said, they said the same about him in the early stages as renault.
Once he found his feet, results came.

Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 29, 2021, 08:37:03 pm
The end is nigh for Danny R.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on June 29, 2021, 08:39:32 pm
The end is nigh for Danny R.
Yes, because he is the wrong side of 30.

....but not because of his results.

Its a 1000000 - 1 chance, but if McLaren sacked Ricciardo, he'd have no trouble finding a drive in 2022.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 29, 2021, 09:05:16 pm
Yes, because he is the wrong side of 30.

....but not because of his results.

Its a 1000000 - 1 chance, but if McLaren sacked Ricciardo, he'd have no trouble finding a drive in 2022.
With one of the back markers maybe.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on June 29, 2021, 10:24:16 pm
With one of the back markers maybe.
...but surely if he is past it, the back markers wouldn't want him either.....right?

Or perhaps he simply isn't past it.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 29, 2021, 11:30:54 pm
...but surely if he is past it, the back markers wouldn't want him either.....right?

Or perhaps he simply isn't past it.
Lets run through the teams
Maclaren-Gonski
Renault - No Chance
Ferrari - no, gone young
Red Bull - no, bridge burnt and they have Max and will go young after Perez
Merc-no, Mr Sat is next there, Lewis will be 50 and still driving the wheels off it
Alpha Tauri - See Red Bull plus gone young
Aston Martin - Stroll owns the team, Seb locked in for abit, could replace him
Alfa- Could replace Kimi
Williams- Could replace Mr Sat or Latifi
HAAS - gone young
As I said, back markers only
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on June 30, 2021, 08:00:47 am
...but surely if he is past it, the back markers wouldn't want him either.....right?

Or perhaps he simply isn't past it.
I think the lower teams would welcome up guys like Vettel, Alonso and Ricciardo as long as they fit their price to the budget and are willing. They might not be on the racing edge anymore, but they have the young guys done and dusted in terms of a lowly team gaining from top level experience and knowledge. Guys like Verstappen, Russell and Norris feed off the older guys to accelerate their progress, teams like McLaren need someone like Ricciardo in the squad because he's the one they would go to when they want to fix the problems.

It might we be a trick the weaker teams have missed, in that perhaps a lowly team should be offering a pair of the senior drivers some sort of duopoly partnership, but of course the drivers have to be willing. Get them off the bottom and up to technology and reliability speed then try a bleeding edge newbie.

Do not take my remarks as disrespect or dislike of Ricciardo, I barrack for him every race, but just like sMurph and Betts the end is nigh! Sure they still offer some highlights here and there, but they won't be 24x7 performers anymore. That's not to say they aren't invaluable off the field and to the team for lifting the kids to the required level.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 30, 2021, 08:35:31 am
I think the lower teams would welcome up guys like Vettel, Alonso and Ricciardo as long as they fit their price to the budget and are willing. They might not be on the racing edge anymore, but they have the young guys done and dusted in terms of a lowly team gaining from top level experience and knowledge. Guys like Verstappen, Russell and Norris feed off the older guys to accelerate their progress, teams like McLaren need someone like Ricciardo in the squad because he's the one they would go to when they want to fix the problems.

It might we be a trick the weaker teams have missed, in that perhaps a lowly team should be offering a pair of the senior drivers some sort of duopoly partnership, but of course the drivers have to be willing. Get them off the bottom and up to technology and reliability speed then try a bleeding edge newbie.

Do not take my remarks as disrespect or dislike of Ricciardo, I barrack for him every race, but just like sMurph and Betts the end is nigh! Sure they still offer some highlights here and there, but they won't be 24x7 performers anymore. That's not to say they aren't invaluable off the field and to the team for lifting the kids to the required level.
Never rated him, never liked him. Comes across as full of himself. As for drinking out of sweaty race boot, as gross and as bogus as it gets.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on June 30, 2021, 10:30:23 am
Never rated him, never liked him. Comes across as full of himself. As for drinking out of sweaty race boot, as gross and as bogus as it gets.
I suppose a lot of Carlton fans lost support for him after the Carlton jumper incident, rolling up to our club and being presented with a jumper by SpecialK, then a few weeks later getting on the social media and telling everyone you are a Wet Toast supporter did not go down well!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 30, 2021, 01:20:49 pm
I suppose a lot of Carlton fans lost support for him after the Carlton jumper incident, rolling up to our club and being presented with a jumper by SpecialK, then a few weeks later getting on the social media and telling everyone you are a Wet Toast supporter did not go down well!
Dont even recall that, wouldnt worry me anyway. Just basing it on his achievements and the way he carries himself.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on July 04, 2021, 11:50:26 am
Norris and Perez have made things very very interesting.

Mercedes stuck in a Red Bull sandwich between Alpha and Omega, Norris the black sheep!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on July 04, 2021, 12:25:24 pm
Story of qualifying is the williams of Russell beating BOTH Ferraris!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on August 29, 2021, 05:25:30 pm
All season Ricciardo can barely get close to Norris, not even in the frame of reference.

Then Norris wipes off his car in Q3, and magically Ricciardo goes out and has a new found best ever in McLaren performance to qualify 4th.

Now I can't say any of this is deliberate, but it would be pretty reasonable for Ricciardo be quietly paranoid, it is at least a deserving WTF!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on August 29, 2021, 05:50:19 pm
All season Ricciardo can barely get close to Norris, not even in the frame of reference.

Then Norris wipes off his car in Q3, and magically Ricciardo goes out and has a new found best ever in McLaren performance to qualify 4th.

Now I can't say any of this is deliberate, but it would be pretty reasonable for Ricciardo be quietly paranoid, it is at least a deserving WTF!

Forget the positions, look at the times.
Ricciardo was 1 sec behind Norris the whole time. Only reason he finished 4th is because it was all in the wet and 'poor cars/performers' get a more level playing field. Look at Russell at #2. If he makes the top 10 he has overachieved.
Rain = all bets are off.

Ricciardo is a great manager of tyres. He is a lift and coast into corners to ease ware on his tyres. The McLaren gets best results when you JUMP on the breaks and throw it into corners. Its complete opposite of driving style.

Its no surprise when you have to ease it into corners under duress and slippery conditions that he magically rises up the rankings.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on August 29, 2021, 06:36:24 pm
Only reason he finished 4th is because it was all in the wet and 'poor cars/performers' get a more level playing field.
In the broadcast the F1 experts said the exact opposite, the best cars with the best aero packages rise to the top, but they did concede drivers from the UK and Japan generally do well in the wet because they are so use to racing in the rain and even snow.

The McLaren is considered to have a relatively low drag aero package, it's one of the fastest in a straight line.

Ricciardo is called in the paddock "The Last of the Late Brakers!"
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on August 29, 2021, 06:56:18 pm
In the broadcast the F1 experts said the exact opposite, the best cars with the best aero packages rise to the top, but they did concede drivers from the UK and Japan generally do well in the wet because they are so use to racing in the rain and even snow.

The McLaren is considered to have a relatively low drag aero package, it's one of the fastest in a straight line.

Ricciardo is called in the paddock "The Last of the Late Brakers!"

I'm not talking about what is being mentioned in the broadcast.
I'm talking about what top F1 drivers and engineers from McLaren have said.
Its been well covered in the print media what ricciardo's issues are.

Last of the late breakers is still apt.
You can go full pace into a corner and brake all at once.
Or you can lift and coast into a corner, with slightly less speed by comparison and hit the brakes later than your opponent because you have less speed to scrub off and are less likely to lock up.

...and by lift and coast, i don't mean it in fuel saving style either, its not to cut down on revs, but energy through the tyres under braking.

...but the McLaren doesn't give you the same grip using that technique as other cars.

Ricciardo commented about a quick convo with former McLaren driver (last year) Carlos Sainz. Sainz asked Danny Ric 'how are you finding it and its weird isn't it.' Its known the McLaren is a bit different to standard.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on September 14, 2021, 11:36:15 am
That crash, be it somewhat scary is also hilarious.

I watched this live and at the time I thought they were both equally liable for what happened, they should have both been hit with penalties.

How the stewards can apportion more blame to one and not the other is quite bizarre, it seems Verstappen is fined for failing to acknowledge, accept and act on the idea Hamilton is going to be a Clark Kent out on the race course! Not that Verstappen is an angel, in fact far from it.

But the ruling reads like it's OK to be ignorant about the limitations of cold tyres, and it's everybody else's problem to deal with your ignorance!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on September 14, 2021, 12:43:29 pm
That crash, be it somewhat scary is also hilarious.

I watched this live and at the time I thought they were both equally liable for what happened, they should have both been hit with penalties.

How the stewards can apportion more blame to one and not the other is quite bizarre, it seems Verstappen is fined for failing to acknowledge, accept and act on the idea Hamilton is going to be a Clark Kent out on the race course! Not that Verstappen is an angel, in fact far from it.

But the ruling reads like it's OK to be ignorant about the limitations of cold tyres, and it's everybody else's problem to deal with your ignorance!

You watch the race, and this is what you take out of it? No comment on Danny Ric?

FWIW, there was a similar thing later in the race at the same corner, i forget who but the driver in the 'hamilton position' chose not to run him off the race and took an overly exaggerated line to ensure there was no contact with the driver coming through in the 'verstappen position'.
It proved that if someone is going the overtake, you have the option of deciding if you crash or not. Hamilton chose to crash rather than give up the spot and suffered the consequences.


Despite all of that, Ricciardo was on track to win that race on merit basically leading from start to finish (minus a couple laps during pits stops/yellow flag). 
To me that showed 2 things...
1. He only needs a sniff to maximise points That x-factor is missing from his teammate who is a solid driver, but doesn't quite have the same manic hunger/desire for success.
2. The McLaren car is clearly strong in a straight line and Ricciardo's issues, which have been about handling the car in braking/high downforce situations, are true. Monza is the other end of the spectrum and almost all about speed, and Ricciardo dominated.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on September 14, 2021, 01:07:47 pm
You watch the race, and this is what you take out of it? No comment on Danny Ric?
I think being happy about Ricciardo is a given.

F1 fans weren't shocked at all once Ricciardo had that great start and got to he front in a Mercedes powered car, the race followed the practise and sprint qualifier trend, and that is the track heavily favoured a front running car if it had a more powerful engine. Aero didn't have much of an impact, which is why DRS delivered few overtaking moves from the lower powered cars.

Ricciardo should be praised for his great start, in fairness some of that starting result is also down to the terrific start Norris got impacting the cars around him. Ricciardo also did a great job preserving the car and tyres, which was confirmed when he earned the fastest lap on the very last lap.

Would I have voted for Ricciardo as Driver of the Day, probably not as I think Bottas should get that coming from last to 3rd!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on December 06, 2021, 12:27:03 pm
While I understand the concerns that F1 insiders have related to safety surrounding the Hamilton / Verstappen events, it makes for some mighty fine viewing.

Isn't this the always going to become the issue when politics and bureaucracy favour one outcome over another?

But I have to ponder, is it a bit hypocritical of the F1 Industry to cry foul, when the situation is perhaps of it's own making?
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on December 06, 2021, 04:06:33 pm
While I understand the concerns that F1 insiders have related to safety surrounding the Hamilton / Verstappen events, it makes for some mighty fine viewing.

Isn't this the always going to become the issue when politics and bureaucracy favour one outcome over another?

But I have to ponder, is it a bit hypocritical of the F1 Industry to cry foul, when the situation is perhaps of it's own making?


Any danger you can let us know whats going on in your mind when you make these vague statements?

There were a lot of reservations about going to Saudi Arabia, but that was about the best qualifying and race that i've seen in a LONG time.

Not sure what the odds are for this championship to be on the same points with 1 race to go, but it appears Verstappen is 1st on countback (most race wins).

After how the 2 battled it out today, i reckon its odds on for Max to take out Lewis in Turn 1, lap 1 next race to win the championship.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on December 06, 2021, 04:11:37 pm
After how the 2 battled it out today, i reckon its odds on for Max to take out Lewis in Turn 1, lap 1 next race to win the championship.
Both have blood on their hands in this regard, I don't know why the media allow either of them to play the victim, both are guilty as sin, and both have repeat offences throughout this season!

The politics comes in when the authorities take one side or the other, if the sport stood neutral we'd be all better off!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on December 06, 2021, 04:21:33 pm
The politics comes in when the authorities take one side or the other, if the sport stood neutral we'd be all better off!

Who do you think they are favouring?
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on December 13, 2021, 03:50:41 am
Wow!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on December 13, 2021, 07:48:08 am
You'd think Toto is a dead man walking, at that level despite all the success you have had those sort of mistakes are not tolerated, and he's had 2 or 3 of the same this season alone, but none as costly!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: capcom on December 13, 2021, 08:12:06 am
Found it amusing.  Especially since that global warming hypocrite Hamilton lost.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: madbluboy on December 13, 2021, 09:27:45 am
A reminder of why I stopped watching the sport years ago.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: cookie2 on December 13, 2021, 11:04:20 am
A reminder of why I stopped watching the sport years ago.

Yep. In fact it stopped being a sport a loong time ago imo.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Mav on December 13, 2021, 11:05:21 am
The Duckworth-Lewis system in 50 over cricket matches isn't perfect, but at least both sides know what will happen if the match has to be shortened. The race marshall basically made it up as he went along. It's equivalent in 50 over cricket would be letting the host broadcaster nominate whatever target seems to be a good idea at the time.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on December 13, 2021, 04:51:53 pm
You'd think Toto is a dead man walking, at that level despite all the success you have had those sort of mistakes are not tolerated, and he's had 2 or 3 of the same this season alone, but none as costly!

What mistakes did he make?
None today/last night.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on December 13, 2021, 04:57:50 pm
A reminder of why I stopped watching the sport years ago.
The Duckworth-Lewis system in 50 over cricket matches isn't perfect, but at least both sides know what will happen if the match has to be shortened. The race marshall basically made it up as he went along. It's equivalent in 50 over cricket would be letting the host broadcaster nominate whatever target seems to be a good idea at the time.

Not sure if you guys watched the post race breakdown but it was made relatively clear why everything happened the way it did. When you hear the reasons behind it all, it's hard to argue.

Basically safety was #1 and letting them race was #2 (and not letting penalties decide the winner)

Hamilton was not penalised at the start.
Verstappen got a bit of luck at the end.
3 different world champions all said there are some issues, but they were allowed to race and both were helped/hindered equally throughout the race 1-1 in decisions. They wouldn't have wanted it any other way.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: RiverRat on December 13, 2021, 06:38:22 pm
Verstappen got a bit of luck at the end.


Understatement - It was handed to him on a plate.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on December 13, 2021, 06:49:45 pm
Understatement - It was handed to him on a plate.
He still had to pass Lewis.

Many believe he was robbed at the start.

As i said, 1-1.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on December 13, 2021, 09:36:32 pm
It was Toto that fecked up, all the complaints are just covering his ar5e!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on December 13, 2021, 09:44:41 pm
It was Toto that fecked up, all the complaints are just covering his ar5e!
Again, I ask why did he feck up?

Strategy wise he did what was right at the time.

In a race where all you have to do is beat one guy, the only thing that matters is staying in front of one guy. Had he done anything else, he would've given up track position and fallen behind that one guy.
Red bull were brilliant with their strategy, but realistically, all they had to do was do the opposite of Mercedes. The best thing red bull did was pit for the softs at the end. Had they not made that pit (which they could've stayed out) Max's tyres may not have been good enough for that last lap pass.
The other thing that red bull did that was gold was using perez to back Hamilton up. How perez managed to hold him up and get about 7 seconds of the gap gone in a few laps was master-class. "He's an animal"

Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on December 13, 2021, 09:50:42 pm
Toto's missed pit calls several times this season costing Hamilton probably enough points to have come into the last round with an unassailable lead, and he should have pitted Hamilton last night and didn't.

Calling up Masi demanding for no safety car just moments after a significant crash isn't tactical management, it is begging.

Red Bull acted, Toto fiddled while Hamilton burned!

It will be interesting to see if Toto survives, if he does it's a concession Japan has bettered Germany in the engine technology race.

I don't think there is much separating those two drivers, mostly politics.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on December 13, 2021, 10:03:22 pm
Toto's missed pit calls several times this season costing Hamilton probably enough points to have come into the last round with an unassailable lead, and he should have pitted Hamilton last night and didn't.

Calling up Masi demanding for no safety car just moments after a significant crash isn't tactical management, it is begging.

Red Bull acted, Toto fiddled while Hamilton burned!
Forget about what happened prior to the last race.
From last night, he did nothing wrong.

If he pits Lewis at any other point, Max gets track position by not pitting. The latifi incident at the end is a 1 / 100 chance of happening the way it did. That one chance occurred last night. Play that race again and 99 other times lewis wins because latifi doesn't crash then and Lewis is still leading.

Yes Toto begging was average, but horner was doing it a lap earlier begging for lapped cars to be let through.
Toto could see however many millions been 'taken from him and his company and he is right to get emotional.

Damon Hill, Jensen Button and Nico Rosberg all said that Lewis should've been penalised at the start and that ultimately letting them race at the end was the right thing to do.

The only grey area is 'only' letting the 5 cars passed, but reality is, letting the other cars passed has no bearing on their individual races, but could ultimately mean the safety car is required for another lap (while they jnlap themselves) and hands the title to Lewis under yellows.
I think common sense was at play there, even if there was no real scope for that decision in the rule book.

For the record, I don't feel strongly one way or the other for Lewis and Max. Either way its a good story, and either way an arrogant prick wins it.

 I appreciated the spectacle of it. The last 2 races,  including qualifying, have been some of the best races I've ever seen.
Martin Brundle said its the best championship he's seen in his 25 years commentating.

How people were turned off by that I don't understand.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on December 14, 2021, 08:40:37 am
I doubt we will agree on this, Toto is no beginner, and they would have planned in advance for events unfolding like they did, they missed the opportunity to pit Hamilton and then began to cry as a strategy, it's not the first time, because they have learnt that whingers are winners.

Then when the safety car came out and it looked like heading in they complained wanting the race finished under it. Masi did exactly what fans want to see, delivered a race, Mercedes wanted a finish under parade laps, some may say celebrating the first turn theft!

fwiw, I've seen Hamilton using the whinging tactics all season by default now. Whenever someone has a car on the day capable of taking the inside line he just drives on and complains "He ran me off the road!", all the while not slowing anywhere near enough to actual take the corner even if there was no opponent there, it is a deliberate pre-planned choice as is the almost instantaneous follow up complaint!

They all do it, in various race conditions, but this is the first season I've seen it used repeatedly as a tactic. The authorities are powerless, because it's actually part of the rule book, it's just a loophole Mercedes exploit. As for Hamilton returning the time gain, hardly, another smokescreen!

Verstappen is no better, or at least Red Bull acting on his behalf, it's making the sport a joke.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on December 14, 2021, 07:04:28 pm
I doubt we will agree on this, Toto is no beginner, and they would have planned in advance for events unfolding like they did, they missed the opportunity to pit Hamilton and then began to cry as a strategy, it's not the first time, because they have learnt that whingers are winners.
I think you are misremembering the events of the race.

Whatever Toto and Mercedes did, Red Bull would've done the opposite.
If Hamilton pits, Red bull do not.
Hamilton didn't, so red bull did.

Toto's hands were tied and i reckon he'd do the same thing again next time, and if i was him, i would too. There was no opportunity to pit Hamilton that wouldn't have put him behind the only person he couldn't afford to be behind.

Its perfectly summed up by Christian Horners comments with 10 laps to go. "we need a miracle for Max to win this" and after the race "We got our miracle"

Mercedes got lucky with the 'no call' at the start of the race, and didn't put a foot wrong from there. They were simply unlucky courtesy of the 'latifi miracle'.

Quote
Then when the safety car came out and it looked like heading in they complained wanting the race finished under it. Masi did exactly what fans want to see, delivered a race, Mercedes wanted a finish under parade laps, some may say celebrating the first turn theft!

fwiw, I've seen Hamilton using the whinging tactics all season by default now. Whenever someone has a car on the day capable of taking the inside line he just drives on and complains "He ran me off the road!", all the while not slowing anywhere near enough to actual take the corner even if there was no opponent there, it is a deliberate pre-planned choice as is the almost instantaneous follow up complaint!

They all do it, in various race conditions, but this is the first season I've seen it used repeatedly as a tactic. The authorities are powerless, because it's actually part of the rule book, it's just a loophole Mercedes exploit. As for Hamilton returning the time gain, hardly, another smokescreen!

Verstappen is no better, or at least Red Bull acting on his behalf, it's making the sport a joke.
All of this is a comment about the sport and the way its raced/run currently. Everyone is in the same boat equally, and is not really relevant to the result.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on December 16, 2021, 10:41:50 pm
Great to read Ross Brawn call out the bullcrap from Toto and Horner, didn't play a favourite, and has signalled an end to the crying on the radio for 2022.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on May 10, 2022, 09:33:52 am
Are we at all surprised by the F1 drivers venting about the Miami event, it was probably the most artificially staged for media/ social media sporting even in the history of global sport. A fake track, fake marinas, fake chair lift, fake drama, fake celebrities, was there anything real besides risk?

The event was almost archetypal in describing the USA's slide into an internet driven mire where nothing is real, not even the F1 race track!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on May 10, 2022, 01:40:11 pm
Are we at all surprised by the F1 drivers venting about the Miami event, it was probably the most artificially staged for media/ social media sporting even in the history of global sport. A fake track, fake marinas, fake chair lift, fake drama, fake celebrities, was there anything real besides risk?

The event was almost archetypal in describing the USA's slide into an internet driven mire where nothing is real, not even the F1 race track!

Typically american event. Plenty of over the top 'sideshows' and a lacking main event.

Weather hurt the drivers.
Lack of run off nearly killed the drivers
Track ripping apart is simply embarrassing.

If it wasn't for the safety car, it would've been the most boring race ever with next to zero overtakes.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on June 14, 2022, 01:21:46 pm
It's bizarre the perspectives professional sportspeople have, some may say distorted perspectives.

Anyone watching the F1 last weekend got a front seat of this warped sense of reality in action. McLaren F1 are not shy at making use of team orders, and we saw two horrendous versions of this last weekend.

The 1st was preventing Ricciardo from passing Norris early in the race, which was itself bizarre given they were on very different tyre strategies. This may have cost McLaren 2 or 3 spots at the race end.

The 2nd was late in the race telling Norris he couldn't pass Ricciardo, and probably cost McLaren at least one spot on the finish.

I suspect the 1st incident was McLaren managing Norris, expectations and politics, while the 2nd was more about PR and not looking like hypocrites to the F1 world media.

As for the sportspeople, Ricciardo at race end said there were a few "little team orders", despite being heard complaining on the team radio about being held up by Norris. Norris post race complaining about being shockingly ordered by the team not to pass Ricciardo, also like the earlier event which Norris greatly benefitted from had never happened!

The whole day was McLaren shooting itself in the foot, they may well have ended up with two cars in the top 6 had the executives stayed out of the way! The analysis I have seen suggested the early "management event" cost Ricciardo about 30s in total race time, 4th place, and the later "management event" cost Norris 8s in total race time, or 6th place!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: shawny on June 14, 2022, 03:30:19 pm
It’s bloody boring at the moment.

At least last season merc and red bull were on par so the racing was at least between those 2 but this season no one is consistent or fast enough to seriously challenge red bull making the result way too predicable.

Hopefully merc will sort the porpoising and provide some competition as I don’t hold much hope for Ferrari as their reliability is a disaster.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 14, 2022, 05:09:38 pm
It’s bloody boring at the moment.

At least last season merc and red bull were on par so the racing was at least between those 2 but this season no one is consistent or fast enough to seriously challenge red bull making the result way too predicable.

Hopefully merc will sort the porpoising and provide some competition as I don’t hold much hope for Ferrari as their reliability is a disaster.
Boring? Not if you're a Ferrari fan, like supporting Carlton at the minute, just waiting for the next breakdown.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on June 14, 2022, 06:19:01 pm
It's bizarre the perspectives professional sportspeople have, some may say distorted perspectives.

Anyone watching the F1 last weekend got a front seat of this warped sense of reality in action. McLaren F1 are not shy at making use of team orders, and we saw two horrendous versions of this last weekend.

The 1st was preventing Ricciardo from passing Norris early in the race, which was itself bizarre given they were on very different tyre strategies. This may have cost McLaren 2 or 3 spots at the race end.

The 2nd was late in the race telling Norris he couldn't pass Ricciardo, and probably cost McLaren at least one spot on the finish.

I suspect the 1st incident was McLaren managing Norris, expectations and politics, while the 2nd was more about PR and not looking like hypocrites to the F1 world media.

As for the sportspeople, Ricciardo at race end said there were a few "little team orders", despite being heard complaining on the team radio about being held up by Norris. Norris post race complaining about being shockingly ordered by the team not to pass Ricciardo, also like the earlier event which Norris greatly benefitted from had never happened!

The whole day was McLaren shooting itself in the foot, they may well have ended up with two cars in the top 6 had the executives stayed out of the way! The analysis I have seen suggested the early "management event" cost Ricciardo about 30s in total race time, 4th place, and the later "management event" cost Norris 8s in total race time, or 6th place!

I disagree with your take on McLarens efforts.

The first call in leaving Ricciardo behind Norris had 2 benefits.
1. Allowing Ricciardo to save his tyres without worrying about getting swallowed up by those behind him. It allowed him to cruise and get DRS cancelling out the DRS of those following......once Norris pitted, you saw how quickly ricciardo was swallowed up.
2. Allowed Norris to continue plodding along finding a better spot to jump back into after his pit.

As for the second one....
It was explained well at the time via radio to Norris. "We didn't make you give it up early, so we are not going to make him give it up now."

Ultimately, the timing of the stops allowed Ricciardo to get in front of his teammate....and hold position.

As for your assertion of 'time lost' as a result of the above, that may well be true, but that could've gone out the window had there been another yellow flag/safety car at a better time.
One thing you failed to mention was the fact that the mediums did nothing for Ricciardo...had he been able to get the most out of them he would've disappeared down the road and made all of the above a moot point.

As always, its easy in hindsight.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on June 14, 2022, 06:22:19 pm
It’s bloody boring at the moment.

At least last season merc and red bull were on par so the racing was at least between those 2 but this season no one is consistent or fast enough to seriously challenge red bull making the result way too predicable.

Hopefully merc will sort the porpoising and provide some competition as I don’t hold much hope for Ferrari as their reliability is a disaster.

Ferrari are faster than Red Bull at the minute.....its just 50-50 if they will blow up or not.

As for the porpoising on the Merc....i find it amusing. Rather than fix it, and take the time hit that goes with it, they continue to complain to the FIA to try and get the rules changed to give them a leg up.
It shows they clearly value points more than their drivers health. Talk about Hamilton not being right for Canada next week has been talked down, but if it continues as is, its only a matter of time until he does miss.
I'm not going to lie, i like seeing Toto sook it up and struggle.  >:D
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on August 25, 2022, 08:16:05 am
It's a bit sad, I've been a big fan of Ricciardo, but we can't say this hasn't been coming for some time. The measure of F1 drivers has always been and always will be against their team-mate. Whether you think it is fair or foul doesn't matter, it's a bubble sort, and whoever rises to the top wins. In this respect Norris has had Daniel comfortably covered for sometime.

We should be too upset, Ricciardo will walk away with about US$20M as a payout, not too bad for redundancy!

If he wants to keep driving he'll probably find a seat in one of the lesser teams, much like Vettel or Alonso, and there also remains the possibility of other retirements, but for any team "in the running" he is unlikely to be the top driver.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on August 25, 2022, 04:25:55 pm
Ricciardo was in a handicapped race and could not overcome the handicap.

Norris had 2 years driving the same car and haven't it developed to his liking, which incidentally, takes away Daniels strength.
Although you'd expect someone at that level to overcome such things, when you have to drive in a completely different way to the way that got you to the top, its hard to do.

We'll see how his replacement fits in. They'll need to make sure its not a driver set in his ways.

Danny Ric should end up at Alpine as its the best car going that is available. Its essentially back to his old team, without the old issues since they've moved on those in charge in the meantime, and increased their budget.

Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on September 13, 2022, 05:29:59 pm
I'm sure Mercedes had Aussie race director Michael Masi sacked because he was the cause of the farcial F1 finish, and yet ............................ !

An associate in the know tells me Masi is too nice of a person to be laughing at the F1 authorities today!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on March 06, 2023, 12:58:30 pm
It will be a long long season for Aussie F1 fans, Ricciardo was stitched up by McLaren which naturally favours it's home boy Norris, but Ricciardo was able to make some progress simply because of his record.

Piastri has nothing to offer McLaren in the short term, no traction, no gravitas, and pretty much everything to lose if the team fail to support him. I have some business associates who attended Bahrain and the word is McLaren were using terms like disappointing in regards to Piastri's testing and performance, it shows how cut-throat F1 really is, most of those whispers will be coming from the management of other drivers.

Yet it looks very much to me like it's the car and not the drivers that are the problem. They may have pandered to Norris a bit too much and have as a result formulated a spud of a car, a car that is tuned to Norris's unique skills and flaws but is in effect a dead-end as far as being competitive is concerned.

Norris is going to have to lift McLaren out of the mire, if he can't then white anting Ricciardo might have been the worst decision of his career!

In the meantime, over at RBR they are reaping the benefits from having Ricciardo back in the Testing / R&D train.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 06, 2023, 02:13:44 pm
Zac Brown has to be the most under pressure man on the grid.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on March 06, 2023, 03:12:09 pm
Zac Brown has to be the most under pressure man on the grid.
True, but it's unlikely to affect him unless he falls on his sword because I believe he is also a major shareholder of McLaren, not just an employed CEO.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 06, 2023, 03:55:50 pm
True, but it's unlikely to affect him unless he falls on his sword because I believe he is also a major shareholder of McLaren, not just an employed CEO.
Its F1, there is always someone sharpening knives in the background.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on March 06, 2023, 04:30:16 pm
It will be a long long season for Aussie F1 fans, Ricciardo was stitched up by McLaren which naturally favours it's home boy Norris, but Ricciardo was able to make some progress simply because of his record.

Piastri has nothing to offer McLaren in the short term, no traction, no gravitas, and pretty much everything to lose if the team fail to support him. I have some business associates who attended Bahrain and the word is McLaren were using terms like disappointing in regards to Piastri's testing and performance, it shows how cut-throat F1 really is, most of those whispers will be coming from the management of other drivers.

Yet it looks very much to me like it's the car and not the drivers that are the problem. They may have pandered to Norris a bit too much and have as a result formulated a spud of a car, a car that is tuned to Norris's unique skills and flaws but is in effect a dead-end as far as being competitive is concerned.

Norris is going to have to lift McLaren out of the mire, if he can't then white anting Ricciardo might have been the worst decision of his career!

In the meantime, over at RBR they are reaping the benefits from having Ricciardo back in the Testing / R&D train.

McLarens issue has always been the car.
Norris was favoured because he doesn't know any different and has always driven the car. If he went somewhere else, he'd have to relearn how to drive.
Ricciardo had to relearn how to drive and it went against his instincts and you need to rely on your instincts at that level.

Piastri is a good driver with a lot to learn and a lemon to learn it in. Good luck. Mark Webber should hand back a large portion of his wages for such a poor advisement re joining McLaren.

Zac Brown has to be a dead man walking. Has had all the money and resources and top drivers to boot and somehow manages to underperform on a regular basis. Start getting your things in order, because you be looking for a new job in 2024....if not before.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: dodge on April 02, 2023, 10:59:46 pm
Oh Mr Hart, what a mess!

Said to the family at the second last re-start (2 laps to go) that there will be chaos and three or four cars will go out and another red flag will happen. 

Other than that, thought it was a pretty good race, with a bit more passing than usual and a little more unpredictable with the grid how it was.  Perez, Alonso, dare I say Stroll, Gasly, Norris, Sainz all did well.  Piastri drove well too - lucky to be in the points, but there are plenty of times you don't get luck in F1, so take them.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 03, 2023, 09:43:03 am
Oh Mr Hart, what a mess!

Said to the family at the second last re-start (2 laps to go) that there will be chaos and three or four cars will go out and another red flag will happen. 

Other than that, thought it was a pretty good race, with a bit more passing than usual and a little more unpredictable with the grid how it was.  Perez, Alonso, dare I say Stroll, Gasly, Norris, Sainz all did well.  Piastri drove well too - lucky to be in the points, but there are plenty of times you don't get luck in F1, so take them.

I thought a couple of the red flags were rediculous. The first one surely they could have swept the road with the safety car. It ruined Russell's and Sainz tyre advantage.
The second one to clear debris? Really? Are they going to red flag a race every time there is a bit of carbon fibre on the track now? Thats a crap call.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on May 09, 2023, 10:47:02 am
While I suspect Ricciardo's demise was long on the cards, it's looking more and more like McLaren is pretty much the poison chalice of F1.

Pretty much everyone except Norris has struggled in the cars, I get the feeling Norris while being unreliably quick might be the root cause of the problems, being given and being told what he wants and not what he needs. This is the problem when F1 teams become dependant on the money drivers bring in, and less dependant on the drivers knowledge, skill or ability.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on October 13, 2023, 05:04:00 pm
So Eccelstone pockets $750M, buying shares, properties, earning some interest at worst for years and years, money pocketed for decades!

He gets out of a $750M fraud charge by paying back $1B.

Have I missed something here?

There are rules for the rich and rules for the rest of us, if this was a $750M art heist let's say a war crime, the perpetrator would be going to the wall!
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 02, 2024, 04:38:11 pm
Lewis breaks the internet. Every driver wants to drive for the oldest and most prestigious team in F1. Will be ironic if he can jag no 8 in red and break Schueys record. Good move by Ferrari, with Rory Byrne back also overseeing the F1 program the less Italians in key positions the better.
#Ferrari_is_F1
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 09, 2024, 09:50:00 pm
It would seem the Karma Bus is a couple of blocks away from Horner's house and he's about to step onto the curb. Low life, cocky  a-hole about to get his comeuppance (I hope).
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on February 10, 2024, 03:51:20 am
The bloke earned $15+million a year, is the best in the world at what he does, is married to a spice girl and gets to travel the world watching the fastest cars in the world go round from the best seat in the house every 2nd weekend.

I think he's got.every right to be arrogant.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on February 10, 2024, 11:30:02 am
It seems the full story is not as cut and dry as the media make out, why am I not surprised!

The hard left fascist media feminists want to paint the bloke as a misogynist multi-millionaire who steps on people for a living.

The reality is he sits at the top of a brutal sport, you can't just be good to survive, you have to be the best of the best.

It seems behind the scenes, and well before the complaints were made, issues had been raised about the performance of the complainant. In effect for being warned to pull up their socks and keep to their boundaries instead of lifting their game they responded with assertions of bullying. This is a modern phenomena, something quite foreign to people over 40, but at epidemic levels in the 20 to 30 age group.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on February 10, 2024, 12:13:38 pm
It seems the full story is not as cut and dry as the media make out, why am I not surprised!

The hard left fascist media feminists want to paint the bloke as a misogynist multi-millionaire who steps on people for a living.

The reality is he sits at the top of a brutal sport, you can't just be good to survive, you have to be the best of the best.

It seems behind the scenes, and well before the complaints were made, issues had been raised about the performance of the complainant. In effect for being warned to pull up their socks and keep to their boundaries instead of lifting their game they responded with assertions of bullying. This is a modern phenomena, something quite foreign to people over 40, but at epidemic levels in the 20 to 30 age group.

I've heard 2 versions, with the above being the most common.

The other is unsolicited 'pics' sent from Horners phone.

I'm not sure if the latter version is part of a smear campaign from her side, or even a rivals side (or rival fan), but if it is the option listed above, then we should expect a lot more of this in the future from the 'woke' generation.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on February 10, 2024, 01:03:58 pm
The other is unsolicited 'pics' sent from Horners phone.
With AI and Phone Spoofing software none of that can be trusted anymore, they can create a fake image and have it sent to any phone number from any other phone number, and if the complaints to the carrier aren't made early enough the trace records are long gone.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on March 14, 2024, 01:25:11 pm
Interesting to hear the legal claims from Massa regarding 2008, not much F1 could have done at the time, but certainly in hindsight he's got a very good case following the revelations the Piquet Singapore crash was deliberate.

In my opinion, the fact that the FIA later banned a number of Renault managers and technicians, leaves the FIA with little ground to stand on.

Massa deserves compensation as a minimum, and quite possibly the 2008 world title.

I suspect the FIA defence will assert Ecclestone has dementia or is otherwise losing his 93 year old marbles.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on March 14, 2024, 04:35:06 pm
Interesting to hear the legal claims from Massa regarding 2008, not much F1 could have done at the time, but certainly in hindsight he's got a very good case following the revelations the Piquet Singapore crash was deliberate.

In my opinion, the fact that the FIA later banned a number of Renault managers and technicians, leaves the FIA with little ground to stand on.

Massa deserves compensation as a minimum, and quite possibly the 2008 world title.

I suspect the FIA defence will assert Ecclestone has dementia or is otherwise losing his 93 year old marbles.

There is no way that the world championship will get reallocated to Massa.
Not sure what his game is, but he needs to let it go.

If this goes through then pandoras box get its lid completely blown off.

Any sport that has had some kind of insider better would be open to have the result changed and the knockons from all of that.
Of course Hamilton would lose his title, and then immediatly start up his own lawsuit on the one he lost to verstappen because of the broken rules by Massi.
There was talk about Alonso been given a 20second penalty and then having it overturned late last year so he could get his 100th podium was the result of corruption and potentially betting as well.

The tour de france would have its winner changed every year everytime there is a new retrospective drug bust there.
etc

THEN you have the people complaining about their bets not being honoured at the time, even though 2-10-30 years later a result is changed to what they had at the time.
Then class action lawsuits start of the back of that....

So no.
It won't be changed.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on March 14, 2024, 05:20:20 pm
So no.
It won't be changed.
Regardless, I think he is a significant chance for some sort of payout, even if it's just to drop the lawsuit, because reality is when Renault directed Piquet to crash to bring Alonso back into contention it was deliberate. None of that can be debated because they have all since confessed, and it looks like in old age Eccelstone has disclosed they knew that at the time not just retrospectively.

Whether it was in or out of the rules of the time might be debated, deliberately crashing into barriers wasn't explicitly written in at that time as far as I know, but the FIA banned the Renault people so it must have thought it was crook.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on March 14, 2024, 06:03:57 pm
Regardless, I think he is a significant chance for some sort of payout, even if it's just to drop the lawsuit, because reality is when Renault directed Piquet to crash to bring Alonso back into contention it was deliberate. None of that can be debated because they have all since confessed, and it looks like in old age Eccelstone has disclosed they knew that at the time not just retrospectively.

Whether it was in or out of the rules of the time might be debated, deliberately crashing into barriers wasn't explicitly written in at that time as far as I know, but the FIA banned the Renault people so it must have thought it was crook.

So if Wayne Harmes said, yep, 100% the ball was out. Do we owe something to Collingwood? If the (then) VFL officials said, we knew it was out, and didn't say anything, do we hand them the flag?

I remember the GP, i remember Martin Brundle at the time saying that is a VERY UNUSUAL place for someone to crash and it doesn't make sense. He called it live.
With the amount of telemetry they have available, ,it doesn't take much for them to work out the excess throttle, or steering was applied on that lap and none other before it, causing the 'accident'. So knowing about it, is one thing. Being against the rules is another.

In the last race, every man and his dog knew that Magnussen was backing up cars behind him so that Hulkenberg could get a pit-stop gap between him and everyone else.

It worked. Haas got their point. Everyone else sooked it up behind. It is not against the rules. So it stands.

Deliberately crashing is not against the rules. So whatever happens from there is irrelevent.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: LP on March 14, 2024, 10:26:03 pm
I remember the GP, i remember Martin Brundle at the time saying that is a VERY UNUSUAL place for someone to crash and it doesn't make sense. He called it live.
He did, as I said, I think financial compo is the most likely outcome, simply because blokes have since confessed and a top official appears to have disclosed that they knew but did not act at the time.

I don't think Massa gets a championship, but I think he is a big chance at getting dollars such is the system.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 24, 2024, 01:17:49 pm
What a brilliantly run event the Aus GP is every year, seems to get better. I think anyone would enjoy a day there. I would highly recommend anyone who hasn't seen a race meeting live, spend the Sat there, 2 F1 sessions (practice and qualifying), an F2 sprint race, and F3 sprint race, V8 Supercars, plenty of food, drinks, stuff for the kiddies. Great value for money, well  to all concerned.
PS if your going GA for a few days, spend the Friday finding your fave spot, get the super early Sat and Sun to get that spot and sent up "camp" with your mates/family.

PSS My fave spots are inside of that track at turn 6 and inside of the track at exit of turn 2.
Title: Re: Formula 1
Post by: kruddler on March 24, 2024, 03:08:02 pm
Agree.

Taken my (now) 9yo son the last couple years and he could spend the day there without ever looking at the track. Was talking to a chick from Canada who has been to the montreal Grand Prix a few times and she has said the Aussie event is so much better because there is nothing else to do at 'her' event.

Know people who have been to Silverstone. Same thing.
I was at the first Autin Grand Prix, basically the same thing.

I've been to probably 15 Melbourne Grand Prix weekends (usually on Saturdays) and its always quality.