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Topic: AFL 2023 Preliminary Final Carlton vs Brisbane Post Game Prognostications (Read 30114 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: AFL 2023 Preliminary Final Carlton vs Brisbane Post Game Prognostications

Reply #255 –
Quote from: DJC on
Our best ruck combination, until someone else comes along, is Pittonet and De Koning, followed by De Koning and O’Keeffe, then Pittonet and O’Keeffe.

The solution to the lack of foot speed by some of our mids isn’t playing the even slower Silvagni as a second ruck....

It might not be long before that first combination falls behind the other two.  Certainly it gives us  better mobility and forward craft than any combination involving Pitto, but we lose his physicality.  Not that O'Keeffe is shy of putting his body on the line but he doesn't - yet - have the size to do it effectively against most AFL first rucks.

As to JSOS rucking not being a solution to lack of leg speed, the comparison is not to the other mids but to whoever would be doing the second ruck role if not JSOS.  If that were Pitto or Mirkov for example, then JSOS clearly is quicker, not so if it is TDK, Harry McKay or say Dom Akuei (not that he is near firsts level) he was keeping out of that role.

Re: AFL 2023 Preliminary Final Carlton vs Brisbane Post Game Prognostications

Reply #256 –
I think it's obvious now that TDK is first choice ruck and will take more responsibility moving forward.

Who will relieve him......interesting question and I don't think the club has the answer. I actually think it's Jack but we will see.

Re: AFL 2023 Preliminary Final Carlton vs Brisbane Post Game Prognostications

Reply #257 –
On this ruck debate, too much emphasis is being put on specific traits and not nearly enough on the contrast.

For me it's not how fast TDK might be, or how strong Pitto is, what is important is the fact they are very different which turns out to be complimentary. We aren't out of the contest in any circumstance with that combination, and it makes us harder to play against because we have a tool for every job, which I think puts that combination well ahead of the other options.

Making up jobs for the likes of SoJ or Akuei isn't the way forward, players should have to win a spot for their preferred / primary role before they are considered for 2nd or 3rd tier tasks.
The Force Awakens!

Re: AFL 2023 Preliminary Final Carlton vs Brisbane Post Game Prognostications

Reply #258 –
I still can't believe we are talking about selection issues for a guy that didn't play footy in the last 6 weeks and the one time he did he broke down by quarter time.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: AFL 2023 Preliminary Final Carlton vs Brisbane Post Game Prognostications

Reply #259 –
I think TDK still needs Pittonet to do the monkey work for him early softening up the opposition stronger rucks and does his best work at the back end of games when he is fresher than the opposition.
I wouldn't be calling him No 1 ruck yet when he still needs a baby sitter....

Re: AFL 2023 Preliminary Final Carlton vs Brisbane Post Game Prognostications

Reply #260 –
The Pittonet/De Koning combination is still a work in progress.
Stability and game time, working in tandem is what's needed.
The more DeKoning plays, the more responsibility he takes, the better he gets.

The reason I'm uncomfortable with Silvagni as a ruck is that he's basically there as cannon fodder.
Does it give us better results using him in this fashion.
He finished 2022 banged up and spent.
He finished this year injured.
Let's just give him the one job next year and we may see him shine as that third (hopefully goal kicking) third tall.

Re: AFL 2023 Preliminary Final Carlton vs Brisbane Post Game Prognostications

Reply #261 –
Quote from: Lods on
Let's just give him the one job next year and we may see him shine as that third (hopefully goal kicking) third tall.
This is the reality for SoJ, he needs to do the job he's best at first and get a regular gig doing that, before we look at him as backup for the rucks.

Unfortunately for SoJ people want to lever him into the 22, I suspect it's a name thing, but when you look at our last half of 2023 the thing that brought us more success than anything was having some good crumbers at the feet of Harry and Charlie, not more marking options. It was Cunningham, Fogarty, Boyd, Owies and even Acres at the fall of the ball around the wing and on the HFF that I think made the biggest difference, and what was missing in the PF.

Further as Martin came good, when he is up and about he's as good if not a better 3rd marking option than SoJ, Kemp or others that might get occasional F50 rotations, that is going to limit F50 opportunities for some.

I suspect and I don't think I'm going out on a limb here, that our spine will be Harry, Charlie, Cripps, McGovern and Weiters surrounded by extras, who those extras will be depends on the coaching and MC emphasis.
The Force Awakens!

Re: AFL 2023 Preliminary Final Carlton vs Brisbane Post Game Prognostications

Reply #262 –
Quote from: Lods on
The Pittonet/De Koning combination is still a work in progress.
Stability and game time, working in tandem is what's needed.
The more DeKoning plays, the more responsibility he takes, the better he gets.

The reason I'm uncomfortable with Silvagni as a ruck is that he's basically there as cannon fodder.
Does it give us better results using him in this fashion.
He finished 2022 banged up and spent.
He finished this year injured.
Let's just give him the one job next year and we may see him shine as that third (hopefully goal kicking) third tall.

Causation and correlation.

Its easy to point to Jack and say he's cannon fodder and we broke him because he got injured in the 1st quarter and never played again.
Reality is, that could've happened to anyone.
Reality is, the week before he was BOG, and kicked 4.
So how banged up was he?

No 2 players are the same. So when comparing them, you list your pros and cons.
We do this with Pitto vs TDK......and we can do this vs Jack as well.
Its clear to all that Pitto + TDK perform better in pure ruckwork than Jack.
However, what half of you have been telling me is that the pure ruckwork side of things means nothing and its what they do around the ground.
So.....when looking at pros and cons around the ground, this is where Jack shines. He simply does more of everything once the ball hits the deck....including clearances when playing as a ruck.

So my contention has always been its better to play 1 pure ruck (to do as much ruckwork as possible - not 50-50) and get someone who is good around the ground (SOS, Cripps, Young, Harry....whoever) to chip in from time to time.

The players mentioned do not get 'beaten up' by playing as a ruck because...
a) They don't actually fly for the contest like pure ruck do, rarely leaving their feet.
b) They don't actually play any more than a quarter of a game in the ruck anyway (and thats spread over 4 quarters)
c) They all play in a position where they constantly get battered and bruised anyway from marking contests and stoppages.

So what is the added stresses that these guys face by playing 6 minutes of ruck a quarter, of which 2 minutes may actually involve a ruck contest??

Again, its all pros and cons.
Pitto + TDK = better tap work.
Pitto or TDK + Jack = better output around the ground.

Its up to you which camp you fall into, but to me its clear that the latter has more influence on the game.
If it was simply about ruckwork, than Sandilands would be undefeated and Mumford wouldn't be far behind.

Our game plan is built on contests and manic pressure. The pressure is applied by the smaller blokes who run, chase, tackle and harrass. The more big blokes we have playing, the less small blokes we have playing and the harder it is to apply that kind of pressure.
Yes, Jack is not a small bloke, but he applies more pressure than our rucks do, and thats what counts.

Re: AFL 2023 Preliminary Final Carlton vs Brisbane Post Game Prognostications

Reply #263 –
Quote from: kruddler on
Causation and correlation.

Its easy to point to Jack and say he's cannon fodder and we broke him because he got injured in the 1st quarter and never played again.
Reality is, that could've happened to anyone.
Reality is, the week before he was BOG, and kicked 4.
So how banged up was he?

Yep
His inury could have happened to anyone but he was  pretty 'banged up' at the end of last year.
...and  had a sluggish start to this year which saw him play a bit of VFL mid year.
Maybe the break was just what he needed.

Re: AFL 2023 Preliminary Final Carlton vs Brisbane Post Game Prognostications

Reply #264 –
Our scoring dried up late in the season, we peaked that night against Collingwood and didn't really play our best since. We won our finals with great defence, guts and determination.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: AFL 2023 Preliminary Final Carlton vs Brisbane Post Game Prognostications

Reply #265 –
Quote from: madbluboy on
Our scoring dried up late in the season,
True, it's so hard to establish the balance, but we also won more games in the 2nd half of the season.

FWIW, we got Martin back after the mid-season break, but Cerra, Owies, McKay, Durdin, Motlop and Silvagni all missed games, but I'd assert BigH getting injured created structural issues we never really recovered from.

Further, both Cripps and Acres carried injuries into the 2nd half of the season, and while they may have still hit the scoreboard those injuries no doubt change the number of opportunities they generate for those around them. I suppose it is not just about what a player scores, but also the opportunities they create.

Remember the the PF, Martin, Motlop and another fly against BigH early in the game, it was a danger sign, because no opponent is going to outmark BigH and yet 2 of our primary SFs weren't at the fall because they felt compelled to take a speccy. How can any player the size of Motlop or Martin think it's feasible to fly against McKay? It was lack of composure, perhaps something that had developed in the weeks before when McKay was absent.
The Force Awakens!