Skip to main content ↑ ↓
Topic: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) (Read 391435 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 11 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1995 –
Quote from: Mav on
I wonder if that’ll attract the Law & Order voters ...

Don't most voters support law and order?
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1996 –
Quote from: cookie2 on
Don't most voters support law and order?

I've got a feeling it's going to be a bit of a necessity after the election no matter who wins. :(  :(

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1997 –
Quote from: cookie2 on
Don't most voters support law and order?
Yes, but that doesn’t make them Law & Order voters.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1998 –
Quote from: Mav on
Yes, but that doesn’t make them Law & Order voters.

Don't both parties support law and order though?
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1999 –
Quote from: cookie2 on
Don't both parties support law and order though?

I think, as a general rule, the conservative parties tend to have stronger (i.e more punitive) policies in this space. The more centrist or left leaning parties are typically painted as "soft on crime." In order to alleviate this, they try to up the ante on law and order, which then creates a type of policy arms race, as the conservatives become more hardline to maintain a point of difference. So no matter how tough on crime the moderates become, the conservatives will go further, and are thus the preferred and traditional choice for the "lock em up and throw away the key" brigade.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #2000 –
Quote from: PaulP on
I think, as a general rule, the conservative parties tend to have stronger (i.e more punitive) policies in this space. The more centrist or left leaning parties are typically painted as "soft on crime." In order to alleviate this, they try to up the ante on law and order, which then creates a type of policy arms race, as the conservatives become more hardline to maintain a point of difference. So no matter how tough on crime the moderates become, the conservatives will go further, and are thus the preferred and traditional choice for the "lock em up and throw away the key" brigade.

Fair enough Paul, so you think that the "moderates" set the law and order standards that the "conservatives" have to follow?
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #2001 –
Quote from: cookie2 on
Don't both parties support law and order though?

Of course, but they differ on what that means.

Trump believes it means that whoever is in power can wield it as a weapon against his political enemies and to hold his allies safe. He doesn’t believe that nobody is above the law. He believes “l’état, c’est moi!” He says the Constitution says he can do anything he likes. This is the dictator’s version of law and order. Taking him on is sedition or treason. Authoritarians love him for that. Remember that it’s not just the guy in power who is an authoritarian. Authoritarian voters love a strongman.

Case in point: General Flynn had pleaded guilty and the Judge had accepted his plea. The Judge was on the verge of sentencing him when Barr instructed the DOJ prosecutors to withdraw the charges. The prosecutors resigned in protest. The Judge refused to dismiss the charges and this case is now wending its way through the courts. Was this really an example of law and order? 

Is Trump’s latest attempt to cajole Barr into prosecuting Biden before Election Day an example of law and order?

The US should ditch the image of Lady Justice holding a set of scales while wearing a blindfold. Those with connections are beyond the reach of justice and those without connections are the sacrificial lambs.

Particularly by comparison with Trump, the Democratic Party ideal is even-handed justice. That doesn’t mean there’s no corruption on the left and that allies aren’t protected. The political system is designed to promote this. Unlike in Australia, the partyin power can gerrymander to preserve its power and judicial appointments are far more political. John Roberts’ Supreme Court in Citizen’s United rejected an attempt to restrict dark money from lobbyists. In the majority’s view, a corporation is a legal person and has a right to influence policy by making donations to politicians. Rich people also have a right to gain favours by making donations. How can anyone expect equal application of the law given this? And the courts are very weak when it comes to cracking down on voter suppression.

So when I say Law & Order voters, I’m not talking about people who believe in justice for all. I’m talking about people who want to see harsh justice meted out by Dirty Harry-style cops against people who aren’t like them. You might not see them in that light. But that’s why the “doesn’t everyone like law and order” question doesn’t hit the spot.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #2002 –
Quote from: cookie2 on
Fair enough Paul, so you think that the "moderates" set the law and order standards that the "conservatives" have to follow?

I wouldn't claim to be any kind of expert, but my opinion is that at this stage in the game, it's more of a reinforcement loop. I think each reacts to the other. But for the voters who believe that you can never have enough prisons, or enough prisoners, or enough police, or enough prosecutions, or enough punitive measures etc., the conservatives will always be the party of choice. 

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #2003 –
@Mav
How do you know how l "see people"?
Reality always wins in the end.
 

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #2004 –
Quote from: PaulP on
I wouldn't claim to be any kind of expert, but my opinion is that at this stage in the game, it's more of a reinforcement loop. I think each reacts to the other. But for the voters who believe that you can never have enough prisons, or enough prisoners, or enough police, or enough prosecutions, or enough punitive measures etc., the conservatives will always be the party of choice.

So that's your "opinion"?
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #2007 –
I like structure in my society, but not to the point of abuse of  powers.
If the rule is there I tend to follow it, and accept the consequences if I don't.
If you think you've been hard done by you always have the  opportunity to challenge it through the systems available.
I'd consider myself a 'law and order' advocate.

Like a lot of arguments the 'law and order' issue is a spectrum, and as you move closer to the middle, where elections are decided, there isn't a lot of difference in position.

One of the strange things about the Covid situation is that many people normally considered as on the left are probably more strict in terms of 'following the rules' and supportive of the legal restrictions and penalties that have been imposed to control the virus.
They're the 'law and order' people.'
Many on the right (shock jocks especially) are complaining about the 'restrictions of liberties' and calling for a halt to closed borders  etc.
They're the anarchists.

But even that's not set in stone...I  know a number of people who normally vote conservative who will be voting for Labor in the upcoming Queensland election because of the way they've handled the pandemic.

Opinions on Trump are also on a spectrum.
There are folks who genuinely love him.
There are folks that absolutely hate him.
Some folks have a strong dislike for much or most of his behaviour, but don't feel a personal hatred of the man (that's probably where I fit)...and there are all the opinions in-between.
Where you sit on that spectrum will determine how you post and respond in this thread.





Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #2008 –
@ Lods
Interesting post Lods. So most people are in favour of law and order but different groups of different political  hues can favour different laws and different orders, often to support their own political ends and agendas and sometimes drifting into the draconian. Surprise, surprise.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #2009 –
Yep.  Not to mention those people are driven into it and manipulated by the businessmen who are most financially motivated to do so.  I see the current lockdown environment as a perfect example of what's happening.  Private consulting doctors are the most vocal about the lockdowns and how there must be a better way, public serving doctors are not seeing patients in their public consulting rooms because they have gone to a mixed model of telehealth.  I heard an example where someone travelled a long way to come in (admittedly they missed the detail) and an unsympathetic doctor refused to see said patient anyway even though the appointment was booked it was just supposed to be virtual.  Which is looking after your health and well being?   That's anyones guess, but always look at what someone has to lose if they grandstand about the lockdowns. 
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson