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11
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 11 2024 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Gold Coast
Last post by kruddler -
Yep
I thought about the VFL.
I'd be quite happy to see it trialled there first for a season or two.
Senior coaches would get an opportunity to see it in action and work out strategies to cope with the new approach.
We'd all be able to see the benefits,  and any problems.
It would also probably give the second tier competition a bit of a boost as folks tuned in to see the new rules in action.

The downside of using it in the VFL is the overall standard is lower. The conditions and the grounds are worse.
As a result, it would be 'uglier' than it would be at AFL level.
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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 11 2024 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Gold Coast
Last post by Lods -
Yep
I thought about the VFL.
I'd be quite happy to see it trialled there first for a season or two.
Senior coaches would get an opportunity to see it in action and work out strategies to cope with the new approach.
We'd all be able to see the benefits,  and any problems.
It would also probably give the second tier competition a bit of a boost as folks tuned in to see the new rules in action.
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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 11 2024 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Gold Coast
Last post by kruddler -
The unknown though...is the 'unknown'.
We can visualise it, we can run our own scenarios looking at games and how things might go, but they'll come with a bit of bias either way.

Until you run a proper trial, the problems and the tactics used to nullify the rule won't be apparent.
And you can almost guarantee there will be unforseen consequences to such a change.
I think it's probably a fair guess to assume that initially it may result in more stoppages as players get pinged and both ball-players and tacklers delay and dwell on the contest and contact.

So any trial would require a bit of time before any benefits are realised and it becomes a fixed rule.
Not sure how you accomplish that.

You do it by introducing it to the VFL, or U18s comp or something. Give it a couple of seasons before you make a call on it.
Initially, there will be some confusion and adjusting.
Halfway through the season players will be used to it.
By the time finals come round, there will be some new tactics to take advantage of it.
You need the off-season to work out new tactics.
You need the next season before there is a new kind of normal with tactics and countertactics in place.

Anything shorter than that and you won't get a true indication of it.

Certainly won't get an idea from a couple of practice games which the afl attempted with its previous half-ar$ed trial.
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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 11 2024 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Gold Coast
Last post by Lods -
The unknown though...is the 'unknown'.
We can visualise it, we can run our own scenarios looking at games and how things might go, but they'll come with a bit of bias either way.

Until you run a proper trial, the problems and the tactics used to nullify the rule won't be apparent.
And you can almost guarantee there will be unforseen consequences to such a change.
I think it's probably a fair guess to assume that initially it may result in more stoppages as players get pinged and both ball-players and tacklers delay and dwell on the contest and contact.

So any trial would require a bit of time before any benefits are realised and it becomes a fixed rule.
Not sure how you accomplish that.

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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 11 2024 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Gold Coast
Last post by kruddler -
I'm not averse to giving the removing the prior opportunity a go.
But I think we need to see it trialled before we make the change to determine how much of a difference it would make.
Just for a bit of fun I watched a quarter  a few weeks ago and tried to 'umpire' it on the basis of get the ball and if tackled release it virtually immediately in a proper manner...no prior.
Of course it may very well  have been my interpretation, but I only counted 4 occasions when it would have made a difference...when a free might have been paid.
I'm guessing it was probably a lot greater on the weekend
I wonder how much difference it would make to the game, but we won't know unless we trial it...with umpires a bit more accomplished than my good self :))

4 occasions in a quarter.
16 occassions in a match.

....and that'd be conservative numbers.

There was 131 tackles in our last match.

There was 105 ruck contests.
30 of them are from goals and starts of quarter - 75 remaining.
Lets say half of them was from throw ins (IMO a lot less, but keep it simple - 37)
Thats essentially 37 times there was a ball up as a result of a tackle that wasn't rewarded....but could be as many as 75.

37 times in a match. Removing prior opportunity would remove 37 stoppages from a game. This is conservative estimates too.

Players are taking the ball, knowing they will get tackled straight away and not attempting to dispose of it at all, instead, just waiting for the umpire to get it and throw it up.
I saw it at times on the weekend, largely as a smart tactic by our defenders to force the ballup in a dangerous position.

But....take away that tactic, they are forced to either, hit it on, and try and get a disposal out. Either way, play keeps moving instead of having a stoppage. Either way, the chance of a turnover is high. Either way, the chance of a goal resulting is a lot higher than going through a 50-50 stoppage. This is how it will increase scoring as well as speed the game up.

I've done the same exercise with mates who i've explained this too and they all seem to agree that its the way to go. Nobody has come up with any kind of downside to it either. LPs possessions/not possession is his only objection, but the same thing happens now with holding/not holding and will sort itself out pretty quickly as its basically an existing rule that isn't umpired correctly as it is.

The trial that the afl did was a half-ar$ed attempt and was designed to rig the outcome....like the old republic vote in the 90's.
It showed nothing because it only kicked into effect on the 2nd handball. So first players to the ball was just hatching it like they do now, and that was ok. If they handballed it to someone who then tried to hatch it, they were penalised......but that occurs in maybe 5% of scenarios, so it was a pointless exercise that 'solved' a problem that didn't exist.
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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 11 2024 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Gold Coast
Last post by Lods -
Inconsistency is the big issue at the moment.
It's all over the shop.

The time of the game is another huge factor.
With all these close games there is a definite reluctance by the umpires to blow the whistle.
Some might consider that a good thing, maybe it is, but blatant infringements are being ignored and in effect the rules aren't determining the game, it's the umpires lack of action...or sometimes the decision to act.
When they do occasionally pay them it stands out and legitimate decisions are labelled trivial and not in the spirit of the game.
Players are urged to play out the game, the umpires shouldn't get to clock off with ten minutes to go.
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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 11 2024 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Gold Coast
Last post by ElwoodBlues1 -
If the ball is knocked free in the tackle it is holding the ball if there was prior opportunity and play on if there wasn’t.

Similarly, a player must dispose of the ball immediately when tackled if he had prior opportunity.  If there was no prior opportunity, the player must be given a reasonable time to dispose of the ball.

That’s where the confusion lies; identical tackles can have different outcomes depending on whether there was prior opportunity.

Get rid of prior opportunity, adjudicate every tackle on its merits but don’t disadvantage players who take on the tackler.  Ping them if they don’t make an attempt, but give them a reasonable time to dispose of the ball.
Grey area is reasonable...for name players its reasonable,  for joe average in a crucial time of the game and in a crucial situation then it becomes inconsistently unreasonable. eg If Pendlebury or Nick Daicos get tackled in front of our goal it will be seen as no prior but if its Lachie Young or Lachie Cowan down the other end and its Nick Daicos doing the tackling then i know who my money is on to get the call...
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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 11 2024 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Gold Coast
Last post by DJC -
I was at the game, and things may have looked different on TV, but i cannot agree with this statement.

Me and 40k of my closest mates seemed to see some very obvious ones being missed.
Most of it was based on the holding the ball decisions.....that were not paid.

A lot of the frustration would be taken away, and the decision making of the umpires made easier, if we ditched the prior opportunity rule.

Right now a player takes on a tackler (which gives up his right to prior opportunity) is correctly tackled and doesn't dispose of it correctly, and the umpire doesn't pay anything because they say there was no prior opportunity. So the mistake came when judging if/when a player decided to take on the tackler.
Removing prior opportunity removes that decision making error.

There's a similar problem when the ball comes out in the tackle.
Is that supposed to be play on?
Does the player with the ball get done for incorrect disposal?
This seems to change depending on how long the player had the ball for as well......or....if he had prior opportunity. TBH, i'm not sure which way that rule is supposed to go, but thats how its umpired and thats where another grey area is introduced where it shouldn't be.

I keep banging on about it, but removing prior fixes so many of these errors.
The main issue seems to be that people don't want to penalise the player making the play.....which is a reasonable stance.
However, currently, we do not reward the tackler enough. It NEEDS to be fairer in that regard.

If the ball is knocked free in the tackle it is holding the ball if there was prior opportunity and play on if there wasn’t.

Similarly, a player must dispose of the ball immediately when tackled if he had prior opportunity.  If there was no prior opportunity, the player must be given a reasonable time to dispose of the ball.

That’s where the confusion lies; identical tackles can have different outcomes depending on whether there was prior opportunity.

Get rid of prior opportunity, adjudicate every tackle on its merits but don’t disadvantage players who take on the tackler.  Ping them if they don’t make an attempt, but give them a reasonable time to dispose of the ball.