Carlton Supporters Club

We'll be lucky to win another game this year!!!

It seemed to me that Pagan and Malthouse had been successful, at least in part, due to well-established dictatorial imposition of inflexible game plans over multiple seasons but that they struggled to transpose those systems to Carlton - although Pagan was also adversely affected by the AFL-imposed draft penalties. The Pagan references in Kouta's book were also consistent with the atmosphere around the club at the time.

Conversely, Ratten and Teague came to the club as assistant coaches who were impressively hands-on in the skill development of individual players and both seemed to benefit from the personal relationships that they developed with the players.

I think in Pagan's case, he had Carey and he had Archer, and that made a huge difference because it greatly diminished the opinions of the rest. But that might be normal for any club.

In all my years in and around football clubs, I've never found a club with undisputed and unequivocal unity, such claims usually come retrospectively after a flag or other similar success, but they are a mirage.

So perhaps losing some players is normal, and it is who you lose that makes all the difference.

But I'd still assert, if the top leadership and by top I mean above the coach, is stable, consistent and gives the coach unconditional support. Usually issues never grow beyond a seed. Whiteants live in rot.

Not every North player was enamoured about Pagan and his methods. I've heard Adam Simpson describe some of his "coaching" in less than glowing terms and Corey McKernan was not a fan either - he left to come to us, and checked out again when Pagan came across to us.  There's two examples straight off the bat.
Kouta writes about it in detail in his book.  It was 1980s hard ass coaching for a 2000s group that didn't respond to that approach.  Some people would call them "soft", others would say they were independent enough to not unthinkingly swallow abuse and BS.
Pagan was the kind of coach you played to spite, not to because he was your mate.

I was within the four walls during the Pagan, Ratten, Malthouse and Teague coaching stints and I have no doubt that Pagan and Malthouse lost (or never had) the players, which did not seem to be the case with either Teague or Ratten.

I suspect it's more likely there are factions between players than a specific issue with the coach.

If there are factions in our group they are enabled and driven by the culture at the club, these things do not form bottom up without some failure of governance.

Pagan, Malthouse and Bolton definitely lost the players but I don't recall hearing about Teague (or Ratten) 'losing the players'; they seemed to suffer from impatience at Board level when the injury bug hit and bigger name coaches were available.

IMO Teague and Ratten were better skill-development coaches who deserved to be given more support.  So far, the lack of skill development suggests that Voss lacks similar capabilities.

List isnt the problem - it's drilling a squad.

Chris Scott has drilled Geelong - no matter who is in or out they are drilled as a squad.
Chris Fagan has drilled Brisbane
Craig McRae has drilled Collingwood
Sam Mitchell has drilled Hawthorn
Adam Kingsley has drilled GWS
Hardwick has drilled GCS,

What do these coaches have in common?

They were not re employed after getting sacked.

Lyon, Brad Scott, Clarkson is banana territory

Longmuir is just an awful coach like Buckley.

Totally agree.
Part of the issue is that some of the players you mention (Weitering, Cripps) are forced to carry an extra load because of missing parts of the structure.
It also means they lack the support that would normally allow them to play their natural games.

McKay, Curnow and especially Walsh are injury carrying/ susceptible.
They're a different kettle of fish.
I'd add Jack to that list because he's become an important part of the defensive structure this year and a support for Weitering.
To me their effectiveness and returning to something approaching their best (and that includes their durability and consistency of performance) is very much a wait and see.