Dunno about u guys but this boundary footy is crap. We looked much better under ratts taking the game on. Now our brand of footy is crap
We need kouta
Considering the list we had under Ratten, it now looks that he did brilliantly. Doesn't mean he was going to get us a flag, as we couldn't recruit for crap then. But it does show just how good the guy was.
Hopefully he will get even better.
Hard to say if Ratts was good, but it's pretty clear MM is over-rated!
2010 and 2011 is a long time ago now, Saints played in grand final in 2010 and at this very minute there 117 points down at 3 quarter time.
Hard to say if Ratts was good, but it's pretty clear MM is over-rated!
Didn't do a bad job. We were in a bottomless pit of sh1t when he took over, had to put up with sh1t recruiting, crap assistant coaches that couldn't develop anyone, and still just miss a PF very unluckily by 3 pts.
Hard to say if Ratts was good, but it's pretty clear MM is over-rated!
Too many factors make it hard to determine who is the best coach with this list which was never going to win a flag with its deficiencies. Ratts probably got the team to perform to its optimum while MM is trying to create a team that can play the type of footy that you need for sustained success. Unfortunately we need some new blood before that can happen.
Didn't do a bad job. We were in a bottomless pit of sh1t when he took over, had to put up with sh1t recruiting, crap assistant coaches that couldn't develop anyone, and still just miss a PF very unluckily by 3 pts.
Perhaps all that tells us is by how far the game had past Pagan by, and old man appointed by old men!
I think Ratt's did OK, not as bad as many make out.
But for me it's clear given his reputation MM has underperformed, I reckon the game has passed him by as well, another old man appointed by old billionaires!
I suspect the Pies knew this, and our club may have been living in the past!
I'm an old man, but I am not so arrogant as to think I can turn the clock back, no amount of money in the world can!
Dunno about u guys but this boundary footy is crap. We looked much better under ratts taking the game on. Now our brand of footy is crap
You know this amazes me. When MM was a the Filth, we marvelled at what he was able to get out of a bunch of spastics to win a flag. He managed to get a very average list to adhere to instructions and give there all. All of a sudden, the game plan is crap, he can't coach, etc etc. I put the blame square on the useless bunch of soft corks that pull the jumper on every week.
Dunno about u guys but this boundary footy is crap. We looked much better under ratts taking the game on. Now our brand of footy is crap
You know this amazes me. When MM was a the Filth, we marvelled at what he was able to get out of a bunch of spastics to win a flag. He managed to get a very average list to adhere to instructions and give there all. All of a sudden, the game plan is crap, he can't coach, etc etc. I put the blame square on the useless bunch of soft corks that pull the jumper on every week.
But you don't blame him for not being able to "get a very average list to adhere to instructions and give there all" ::)
Dunno about u guys but this boundary footy is crap. We looked much better under ratts taking the game on. Now our brand of footy is crap
You know this amazes me. When MM was a the Filth, we marvelled at what he was able to get out of a bunch of spastics to win a flag. He managed to get a very average list to adhere to instructions and give there all. All of a sudden, the game plan is crap, he can't coach, etc etc. I put the blame square on the useless bunch of soft corks that pull the jumper on every week.
But you don't blame him for not being able to "get a very average list to adhere to instructions and give there all" ::)
No
Dunno about u guys but this boundary footy is crap. We looked much better under ratts taking the game on. Now our brand of footy is crap
You know this amazes me. When MM was a the Filth, we marvelled at what he was able to get out of a bunch of spastics to win a flag. He managed to get a very average list to adhere to instructions and give there all. All of a sudden, the game plan is crap, he can't coach, etc etc. I put the blame square on the useless bunch of soft corks that pull the jumper on every week.
But you don't blame him for not being able to "get a very average list to adhere to instructions and give there all" ::)
Well Roos is doing well with arguably a squad worse than ours. Difference is the players are prepared to work hard and as a unit.
Dunno about u guys but this boundary footy is crap. We looked much better under ratts taking the game on. Now our brand of footy is crap
You know this amazes me. When MM was a the Filth, we marvelled at what he was able to get out of a bunch of spastics to win a flag. He managed to get a very average list to adhere to instructions and give there all. All of a sudden, the game plan is crap, he can't coach, etc etc. I put the blame square on the useless bunch of soft corks that pull the jumper on every week.
But you don't blame him for not being able to "get a very average list to adhere to instructions and give there all" ::)
Well Roos is doing well with arguably a squad worse than ours. Difference is the players are prepared to work hard and as a unit.
BANG!
Dunno about u guys but this boundary footy is crap. We looked much better under ratts taking the game on. Now our brand of footy is crap
You know this amazes me. When MM was a the Filth, we marvelled at what he was able to get out of a bunch of spastics to win a flag. He managed to get a very average list to adhere to instructions and give there all. All of a sudden, the game plan is crap, he can't coach, etc etc. I put the blame square on the useless bunch of soft corks that pull the jumper on every week.
But you don't blame him for not being able to "get a very average list to adhere to instructions and give there all" ::)
Well Roos is doing well with arguably a squad worse than ours. Difference is the players are prepared to work hard and as a unit.
Is it? Or is Roos just a better coach with more innovation and not past his use by date. None of us know.
Dunno about u guys but this boundary footy is crap. We looked much better under ratts taking the game on. Now our brand of footy is crap
You know this amazes me. When MM was a the Filth, we marvelled at what he was able to get out of a bunch of spastics to win a flag. He managed to get a very average list to adhere to instructions and give there all. All of a sudden, the game plan is crap, he can't coach, etc etc. I put the blame square on the useless bunch of soft corks that pull the jumper on every week.
But you don't blame him for not being able to "get a very average list to adhere to instructions and give there all" ::)
Well Roos is doing well with arguably a squad worse than ours. Difference is the players are prepared to work hard and as a unit.
Is it? Or is Roos just a better coach with more innovation and not past his use by date. None of us know.
BANG! and able to get the players "to work hard and as a unit".
Dunno about u guys but this boundary footy is crap. We looked much better under ratts taking the game on. Now our brand of footy is crap
You know this amazes me. When MM was a the Filth, we marvelled at what he was able to get out of a bunch of spastics to win a flag. He managed to get a very average list to adhere to instructions and give there all. All of a sudden, the game plan is crap, he can't coach, etc etc. I put the blame square on the useless bunch of soft corks that pull the jumper on every week.
But you don't blame him for not being able to "get a very average list to adhere to instructions and give there all" ::)
Well Roos is doing well with arguably a squad worse than ours. Difference is the players are prepared to work hard and as a unit.
Is it? Or is Roos just a better coach with more innovation and not past his use by date. None of us know.
BANG! and able to get the players "to work hard and as a unit".
Fair point, but a coach can only do so much. Say what you want about MM, the game plan the club whoever but the fact is our players aren't prepared to work. they are lazy. people often bag Rowe and white at times which is understandable but they bloody try their guts out. Obviously trying isn't a substitute for their weaknesses but why can't proven players with ability like Gibbs and Garlett work a little harder? We some how up our ante in the last 5 minutes and become a force. Why not for the whole game? Are we intimated, hurt from a little criticism or just plain soft? seems like issues we have discussed for years.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink it.
Dunno about u guys but this boundary footy is crap. We looked much better under ratts taking the game on. Now our brand of footy is crap
You know this amazes me. When MM was a the Filth, we marvelled at what he was able to get out of a bunch of spastics to win a flag. He managed to get a very average list to adhere to instructions and give there all. All of a sudden, the game plan is crap, he can't coach, etc etc. I put the blame square on the useless bunch of soft corks that pull the jumper on every week.
But you don't blame him for not being able to "get a very average list to adhere to instructions and give there all" ::)
Well Roos is doing well with arguably a squad worse than ours. Difference is the players are prepared to work hard and as a unit.
Is it? Or is Roos just a better coach with more innovation and not past his use by date. None of us know.
BANG! and able to get the players "to work hard and as a unit".
Fair point, but a coach can only do so much. Say what you want about MM, the game plan the club whoever but the fact is our players aren't prepared to work. they are lazy. people often bag Rowe and white at times which is understandable but they bloody try their guts out. Obviously trying isn't a substitute for their weaknesses but why can't proven players with ability like Gibbs and Garlett work a little harder? We some how up our ante in the last 5 minutes and become a force. Why not for the whole game? Are we intimated, hurt from a little criticism or just plain soft? seems like issues we have discussed for years.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink it.
Any coach can coach a good/great list, and a good/great coach
should be able to coach an average list to be good/great. The assumption people make is that MM is a great coach and can coach other average lists to greatness, just not this one. Yet I thought he was hired to do exactly what he did with other average lists??
I don't agree with the title of this thread we didn't play better under Ratts, nothing has changed expect we have a new more experienced super coach and still play the same inconsistent footy.
But you don't blame him for not being able to "get a very average list to adhere to instructions and give there all" ::)
Carlton has developed a loser mentality, we have been so ordinary for so long that the players, with a few exceptions, don't know how to be anything other than ordinary.
They don't expect to beat the best and haven't for a long time, don't anyone kid themselves that it was any different under Ratten.
It's going to take a seismic shift to eradicate the entrenched mediocrity
The loser mentality is no more exemplified than by the twats that wanted Ratts gone because because they thought we could win a premiership and now that they have their new coach, blame the players. That's a loser mentality if I ever saw one.
But you don't blame him for not being able to "get a very average list to adhere to instructions and give there all" ::)
Carlton has developed a loser mentality, we have been so ordinary for so long that the players, with a few exceptions, don't know how to be anything other than ordinary.
They don't expect to beat the best and haven't for a long time, don't anyone kid themselves that it was any different under Ratten.
It's going to take a seismic shift to eradicate the entrenched mediocrity
thats my great fear....
a culture of mediocrity is carlton now
thats why alot of people at princes park have to be moved on...on and off field....
The loser mentality is no more exemplified than by the twats that wanted Ratts gone because because they thought we could win a premiership and now that they have their new coach, blame the players. That's a loser mentality if I ever saw one.
One of our cultural negatives at the moment is the wish for instant gratification. We, as a club, have fallen into the habit of expecting it. Not even the great Ronald Dale Barassi managed a premiership in his first year. It took 4 years to reach the reward after a generation of mediocrity. We went through huge changes in that 4 years on and off the field and we changed over a large portion of the list to do it.
We have to be patient now: nobody is going to turn us into a premiership team overnight. Ratten should be acknowledged for the job he did with our list: he turned a bunch of battlers into finalists. It IS where our expectations came from. However, I doubt that Ratts would have won us a flag: he was too comfortable with the list as it was and didn't move players on. In fact, his biggest weakness was his faith in the players: he wouldn't move them until too late.
He will be a better coach now for the experience at Hawthorn, but that is another issue.
The blow torch is now on the players, as we DO have a proven coach. Fair enough. But that lack of support and a negative comments towards our players isn't helping them gain any confidence.
Yes, we will have to make considerable changes at the end of the season. Malthouse took years to develop his list at Collingwood: it will take a while with us too. But the character assassinations of our players from outsiders like us do not help. Let's see if we can be a bit more realistic: our list is not going to change significantly until November and Malthouse has said that he isn't going to play kids just to play kids. He will wait until they are at least minimally ready to play senior footy. Then he will see if they have what it takes. But sacrificing them now isn't going to help us in the short or medium terms.
We have started the renewal process: we have a new off field leader. Let's have a little patience and a little faith as the changes start, because we are NOT going to beat everybody by magic! It takes time and development, not instant gratificiation.
@crash
garbage it takes time ,to the extent that we are not going to allow the same on field and off field people another opportunity to make poor decisions
with the new president i expect alot of people movement off field....
@crash
garbage it takes time ,to the extent that we are not going to allow the same on field and off field people another opportunity to make poor decisions
with the new president i expect alot of people movement off field....
We have made a big bet on Malthouse and unfortunately sacking him now would set this club back another 2-3 years, something that we cannot afford.
It is important the club imposes itself on Malthouse and ensures through its organisational structure that he is not running his own show - he is accountable to the members and must now be cautioned on disassociating himself from the team results that he is responsible for. Like any other employee, Carlton must manage his delegated authority in any area that he demonstrates poor judgement in - for example, we now have some evidence following the recruitment of Dale Thomas (and to an extent Wood), that recruitment and identifying player talent is not a strong area for Malthouse and so, the club must now limit his direct and indirect role in player recruitment, and in so doing, empower our recruitment team to do their job without interference.
Malthouse can be managed - whilst he would know that it is extremely difficult for Carlton to terminate his employment, he would also be well aware that there is no demand for his services as an AFL coach at another club and like Dennis Pagan before him, his standing in the game will be severely diminished if he cannot achieve some success at Carlton.
@crash
garbage it takes time ,to the extent that we are not going to allow the same on field and off field people another opportunity to make poor decisions
with the new president i expect alot of people movement off field....
We have made a big bet on Malthouse and unfortunately sacking him now would set this club back another 2-3 years, something that we cannot afford.
That is simply not true you cannot say either way. Look at what Hinkley did for the basket case that was Port.
@crash
garbage it takes time ,to the extent that we are not going to allow the same on field and off field people another opportunity to make poor decisions
with the new president i expect alot of people movement off field....
We have made a big bet on Malthouse and unfortunately sacking him now would set this club back another 2-3 years, something that we cannot afford.
That is simply not true you cannot say either way. Look at what Hinkley did for the basket case that was Port.
And what would happen if we ended up with Watters instead of a Hinkley?
@crash
garbage it takes time ,to the extent that we are not going to allow the same on field and off field people another opportunity to make poor decisions
with the new president i expect alot of people movement off field....
We have made a big bet on Malthouse and unfortunately sacking him now would set this club back another 2-3 years, something that we cannot afford.
That is simply not true you cannot say either way. Look at what Hinkley did for the basket case that was Port.
And what would happen if we ended up with Watters instead of a Hinkley?
Do you think it would be a good idea to start again with a new coach/assistants and game plan? Really???
@crash
garbage it takes time ,to the extent that we are not going to allow the same on field and off field people another opportunity to make poor decisions
with the new president i expect alot of people movement off field....
We have made a big bet on Malthouse and unfortunately sacking him now would set this club back another 2-3 years, something that we cannot afford.
That is simply not true you cannot say either way. Look at what Hinkley did for the basket case that was Port.
And what would happen if we ended up with Watters instead of a Hinkley?
Do you think it would be a good idea to start again with a new coach/assistants and game plan? Really???
Comment directed at PI2C
Do you think it would be a good idea to start again with a new coach/assistants and game plan? Really???
The way we go about appointing them, I don't think it makes all that much difference. If we had half a clue then... Well, then we probably wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.
I think most people had the expectation that MM would get us to a final within 2-3 yrs because it's MM.
I think most people had the expectation that MM would get us to a final within 2-3 yrs because it's MM.
We were a team with young players, who struggled with the defensive side of the game, was inconsistent and in recent times struggled against the best sides. It seemed that tweaking was all that was needed. Finals seemed a more than reasonable expectation but Now we're an old rubbish bottom 8 side and we say the players are no good because the guy who gets the blame if the players aren't woeful says so.
I think most people had the expectation that MM would get us to a final within 2-3 yrs because it's MM.
Yes and why wouldn't you have expected that given we cancelled the incumbent coach's contract to get MM :-\
I think most people had the expectation that MM would get us to a final within 2-3 yrs because it's MM.
We were a team with young players, who struggled with the defensive side of the game, was inconsistent and in recent times struggled against the best sides. It seemed that tweaking was all that was needed. Finals seemed a more than reasonable expectation but Now we're an old rubbish bottom 8 side and we say the players are no good because the guy who gets the blame if the players aren't woeful says so.
we are now an older side with no defensive side to their game who is struggling to change the way they played footy. A leopard doesn't change its spots, and Malthouse is not able to tweak the side accordingly. The trouble being that they can no longer do the attacking game as well as they used to due to reduced interchange, sub rule and the older team not having the running power that they used to, and our younger players seem to be struggling with everything. It's why we are inconsistent. The worst part is we can't decrease the load on the elder players because of our poor development and can't even carry them through their "elder" years anymore as we require them to be the game winners that they used to be.
ahh, just bury the hatchet
give ratts a call find out how he's going
I think most people had the expectation that MM would get us to a final within 2-3 yrs because it's MM.
We were a team with young players, who struggled with the defensive side of the game, was inconsistent and in recent times struggled against the best sides. It seemed that tweaking was all that was needed. Finals seemed a more than reasonable expectation but Now we're an old rubbish bottom 8 side and we say the players are no good because the guy who gets the blame if the players aren't woeful says so.
In a nutshell.
@Jon Dorotich
If things don't turn this year I don't want to place another season's worth of drafting and trading in his hands.
I think most people had the expectation that MM would get us to a final within 2-3 yrs because it's MM.
We were a team with young players, who struggled with the defensive side of the game, was inconsistent and in recent times struggled against the best sides. It seemed that tweaking was all that was needed. Finals seemed a more than reasonable expectation but Now we're an old rubbish bottom 8 side and we say the players are no good because the guy who gets the blame if the players aren't woeful says so.
In a nutshell.
@Jon Dorotich
If things don't turn this year I don't want to place another season's worth of drafting and trading in his hands.
Agreed - he's proven that he should be nowhere near the trade table
The loser mentality is no more exemplified than by the twats that wanted Ratts gone because because they thought we could win a premiership and now that they have their new coach, blame the players. That's a loser mentality if I ever saw one.
One of our cultural negatives at the moment is the wish for instant gratification. We, as a club, have fallen into the habit of expecting it. Not even the great Ronald Dale Barassi managed a premiership in his first year. It took 4 years to reach the reward after a generation of mediocrity. We went through huge changes in that 4 years on and off the field and we changed over a large portion of the list to do it.
We have to be patient now: nobody is going to turn us into a premiership team overnight. Ratten should be acknowledged for the job he did with our list: he turned a bunch of battlers into finalists. It IS where our expectations came from. However, I doubt that Ratts would have won us a flag: he was too comfortable with the list as it was and didn't move players on. In fact, his biggest weakness was his faith in the players: he wouldn't move them until too late.
He will be a better coach now for the experience at Hawthorn, but that is another issue.
The blow torch is now on the players, as we DO have a proven coach. Fair enough. But that lack of support and a negative comments towards our players isn't helping them gain any confidence.
Yes, we will have to make considerable changes at the end of the season. Malthouse took years to develop his list at Collingwood: it will take a while with us too. But the character assassinations of our players from outsiders like us do not help. Let's see if we can be a bit more realistic: our list is not going to change significantly until November and Malthouse has said that he isn't going to play kids just to play kids. He will wait until they are at least minimally ready to play senior footy. Then he will see if they have what it takes. But sacrificing them now isn't going to help us in the short or medium terms.
We have started the renewal process: we have a new off field leader. Let's have a little patience and a little faith as the changes start, because we are NOT going to beat everybody by magic! It takes time and development, not instant gratificiation.
Yep, excellent post.... Which reminds me of situation during Parko's second stint with us. In the second year of that stint (in 92 from mem), he quizzed the senior leadership group at selection, about what they thought was the reason for the sides poor performances. Sticks suggested that they needed to stop chopping and changing the side, to forgo instant results at the expense of long term stability and development.
Clearly the benefits apply to the coach as well. You simply can't keep chopping and changing, your gonna be better served in the long term by doing what's goal achieving rather than tension relieving.
And in anticipation of comparisons to having changed coach re Ratts, there's a 5+ year stint in comparison to 1 1/2 year stint. Madness to be calling for change again.
spot on Crashlander. Very good post!
I totally understand the need for patience.
I was one who was critical of the coach change but I said to myself "we'll give Malthouse time" because he has to get a good understanding of the list, and the players have to get a handle on his game plan and instructions.
I wasn't critical of him last year.....I'm still not too critical of him now.
But there comes a point where he has to "throw us a bone" to keep us happy.
I think there's a lot of faith around at the moment......but little to show for it.
You can't "dine out" on faith
"Mick's the man for the job" may be right......but at the moment I see us as worse than last year.
Let's forget about comparing "Mick to Ratten" that's a circular argument that's been done to death.
Let's compare "Mick to Mick"....Are we a better side in 2014 than we were in 2013?
We show glimpses of good form and a bit of fight from time to time as in the two matches leading up to the Collingwood game, but even in those games we played in patches.
Now if at the end of the year we can look back and say that was a better season than last year...then Mick gets a tick.
What we need to see over the rest of the year is signs that things are improving.
If they don't you can't expect folk to "live" on faith, and there will be criticism.
The only way to stop criticism is do what Barassi and Parkin did....... win flags.
Well said lods and let's be honest here, the guy does himself no favours. His behaviour in the press conferences is like a big 'FU members and supporters, I'm answerable to no one'. It typifies the club's attitude to members and supporters since Swann came to the club and actually mirrors Swann's behaviour to us on the radio as well. Treating members like a given and then you have Sticks coming out in the media and trying to smooth things over.....more contradiction. I'm over it.