Carlton Supporters Club

Social Club => Blah-Blah Bar => Topic started by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 04, 2020, 12:03:35 pm

Title: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 04, 2020, 12:03:35 pm
Mrs E and myself went to do our regular shopping and found ourselves in a frenzied shopper assault on consumables with people turning feral over a pack of toilets rolls. A new trolley load of Toilet paper appeared in the supermarket aisle and the Coles staff member was virtually pushed out of the way as he tried to put all the packs on the shelves. He gave up and left them on the trolley for the feral masses to fight over. I thought CV was a respiratory disease not a bowel complaint......????
No toilet paper in the mens either, all been taken....
Think I'll be doing online shopping...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 04, 2020, 12:10:32 pm
Mrs E and myself went to do our regular shopping and found ourselves in a frenzied shopper assault on consumables with people turning feral over a pack of toilets rolls. A new trolley load of Toilet paper appeared in the supermarket aisle and the Coles staff member was virtually pushed out of the way as he tried to put all the packs on the shelves. He gave up and left them on the trolley for the feral masses to fight over. I thought CV was a respiratory disease not a bowel complaint......????
No toilet paper in the mens either, all been taken....
Think I'll be doing online shopping...
Some prick at the local manufacturers will get a fat bonus this month due to the spike in sales from their corona viral marketing tactic, the stupid thing is that nearly all our toilet paper in Australia is locally produced!

Only the local division of a Yank owned company stupidly shutdown all it's local manufacture and setup cheap China imports in it's place, a GM tactic, they'll be bust within a month and the local makers will be booming!

A relative told me there were people queued at the Coles checkout yesterday with trolleys full to the brim of bulk dunny roll packets, like a Vesper overloaded with bamboo in India! Cynically she asked if they were sending them to China!

Watch the current suppliers and supermarkets take advantage of all this retail stupidity, next week dunny rolls, long life milk, handsanitiser, baked-beans, etc., etc., will be twice the price they use to be! ;)

Because I have connections in the industry I saw this coming, I went out and added handshower(Bidet) type nozzles to the home cisterns, now even they have tripled in price, as people desperate for a guilt free decent crap resort to buying hand towels or finding a use for those old phone books!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on March 04, 2020, 12:48:15 pm
No need to panic.
Head over to the fruit and vegies and get some corn.

https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/10/31/before-toilet-paper/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 04, 2020, 01:28:06 pm
No need to panic.
Head over to the fruit and vegies and get some corn.

https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/10/31/before-toilet-paper/
 I've seen corn somewhere before!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 04, 2020, 04:36:34 pm
Some prick at the local manufacturers will get a fat bonus this month due to the spike in sales from their corona viral marketing tactic, the stupid thing is that nearly all our toilet paper in Australia is locally produced!

Only the local division of a Yank owned company stupidly shutdown all it's local manufacture and setup cheap China imports in it's place, a GM tactic, they'll be bust within a month and the local makers will be booming!

A relative told me there were people queued at the Coles checkout yesterday with trolleys full to the brim of bulk dunny roll packets, like a Vesper overloaded with bamboo in India! Cynically she asked if they were sending them to China!

Watch the current suppliers and supermarkets take advantage of all this retail stupidity, next week dunny rolls, long life milk, handsanitiser, baked-beans, etc., etc., will be twice the price they use to be! ;)

Because I have connections in the industry I saw this coming, I went out and added handshower(Bidet) type nozzles to the home cisterns, now even they have tripled in price, as people desperate for a guilt free decent crap resort to buying hand towels or finding a use for those old phone books!

No paper towel or tissues either, all sold out.....check the bark on your trees, reckon that might be gone by morning too..
Been a run on Panadol too, think some chemists might be cutting down purchases to one pack only..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 04, 2020, 05:01:09 pm
I'm hearing some disturbing aspects about this. Apparently there are local people on eBay offering a single roll of toilet paper for purchase for $50. There was also talk about some of those buying huge amounts of toilet paper are owners of convenience stores and the like, where you can still buy toilet paper, but at about 10 times the price it is sold at Coles/Woolworths
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on March 04, 2020, 05:24:05 pm
Some folks are taking the piss on e-bay for sure...  ;D
I suspect in most cases it's just a bit of Aussie humour.
Quilton seems to be the brand of choice.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 04, 2020, 05:26:11 pm
Behaviour of people in embarrassing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 04, 2020, 05:26:59 pm
I'm hearing some disturbing aspects about this. Apparently there are local people on eBay offering a single roll of toilet paper for purchase for $50. There was also talk about some of those buying huge amounts of toilet paper are owners of convenience stores and the like, where you can still buy toilet paper, but at about 10 times the price it is sold at Coles/Woolworths
If people are stupid enough to buy it, they deserve to be ripped off and taken to the cleaners (no pun intended)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 04, 2020, 05:28:14 pm
I crap you not, I know someone who had tickets to the SOO Charity match and didnt go because of the CV propaganda.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 04, 2020, 06:09:06 pm
We always buy our toilet paper from from one single online supplier - he's "our sole agent". Ahem! I'll let myself out........
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 04, 2020, 06:59:25 pm
Proof that there's a sucker born every minute.  Reverse scenes of a North Korea supermarket.  All on display but you can't buy it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 04, 2020, 07:11:44 pm
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Toilet-Paper/193368268371?hash=item2d05a59e53:g:lr0AAOSwqqJeXzD~
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 04, 2020, 08:02:59 pm
Some may have already read/heard the stats on CV, but supposedly only 2% of the people that get it, die. Most of them are old.
If you are under the age of 50 and get CV, you have a 0.2% chance of death......and i'm tipping most of that 0.2% are either already sick and/or are children/infants.

If you are relatively fit and healthy, you are fine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 04, 2020, 08:19:00 pm
Some may have already read/heard the stats on CV, but supposedly only 2% of the people that get it, die. Most of them are old.
If you are under the age of 50 and get CV, you have a 0.2% chance of death......and i'm tipping most of that 0.2% are either already sick and/or are children/infants.

If you are relatively fit and healthy, you are fine.

Mostly correct Kruddler. Those at risk of dying are over 60 with a pre-existing condition (immune deficiency, respiratory or cardiovascular disease, diabetes etc). Many people who get it either don't have any symptoms, or just get a common cold. Other coronaviruses that have been around forever cause about 25% of cases of common cold. But one interesting thing about COVID-19 is that children are grossly under-represented in those who are getting sick from it, the experts are not sure why, but if you're under 18 you are very likely to not even know you've got it. Similar in some ways to diseases like chicken pox, if you get it young enough you barely show any symptoms at all, but get it as an adult and it can knock you around big time
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 04, 2020, 08:20:27 pm
Mostly correct Kruddler. Those at risk of dying are over 60 with a pre-existing condition (immune deficiency, respiratory or cardiovascular disease, diabetes etc). Many people who get it either don't have any symptoms, or just get a common cold. Other coronaviruses that have been around forever cause about 25% of cases of common cold. But one interesting thing about COVID-19 is that children are grossly under-represented in those who are getting sick from it, the experts are not sure why, but if you're under 18 you are very likely to not even know you've got it. Similar in some ways to diseases like chicken pox, if you get it young enough you barely show any symptoms at all, but get it as an adult and it can knock you around big time

Yes.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/why-children-arent-getting-sick-from-coronavirus/news-story/9a40bc00c6087ea5926254d551162d61
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 04, 2020, 08:50:13 pm
Some may have already read/heard the stats on CV, but supposedly only 2% of the people that get it, die. Most of them are old.
If you are under the age of 50 and get CV, you have a 0.2% chance of death......and i'm tipping most of that 0.2% are either already sick and/or are children/infants.
Young kids, infants and children, generally don't get it, they don't know why but they are working to find out!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 04, 2020, 09:30:54 pm
From what I've read, this year's version of the flu will have a greater impact than COVID-19.

As Lance Corporal Jones used to say, "Don't Panic!"  Or was it. "They don't like it up 'em!"?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 04, 2020, 09:36:21 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSwQh3qD2cQ&t=1s

George Galloway is not always everyone's favourite but this interview he conducted is very interesting.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 04, 2020, 09:51:23 pm
From what I've read, this year's version of the flu will have a greater impact than COVID-19.

As Lance Corporal Jones used to say, "Don't Panic!"  Or was it. "They don't like it up 'em!"?
Influenza has killed 16,000 people in the USA this season, COVID19 has killed 2
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 04, 2020, 10:22:08 pm
The overreaction to this is ridiculous and bereft of any common sense
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 04, 2020, 11:09:05 pm
The overreaction to this is ridiculous and bereft of any common sense

Would I be too cynical if I suggested that governments were using COVID-19 to draw attention away from incompetence, corruption, or a combination thereof?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 05, 2020, 07:27:51 am
Would I be too cynical if I suggested that governments were using COVID-19 to draw attention away from incompetence, corruption, or a combination thereof?

Not at all.  We have good reason for our suspicions with every level of govt.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 05, 2020, 07:59:14 am
Would I be too cynical if I suggested that governments were using COVID-19 to draw attention away from incompetence, corruption, or a combination thereof?
A little bit from Column A, and a little bit from Column B! ;D

You'd think, given oldies are at far greater risk of COVID-19, if the Saudis, Iran or the Taliban wanted to disrupt the US they could just send young infected asymptomatic hosts to frequent the vicinity of the USA's crusty politicians as there is hardly a one under 70 years of age!

Much the same for the West versus China's or Russia's Communist Party!

The Rise of the Gretas!

Where did I put my fly swatter?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: rocky on March 05, 2020, 09:08:19 am
Would I be too cynical if I suggested that governments were using COVID-19 to draw attention away from incompetence, corruption, or a combination thereof?

Or, how's this for a conspiracy theory, haven't heard of too many more riots in Hong Kong since this all hit? Just sayin.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 05, 2020, 10:48:07 am
To every imbecile who has panic purchased boxes and boxes of toilet paper, may you contract gastro/diarrhoea that has you sitting on the toilet for a week or two >:(  Anyone got any old newpapers or CheatsFC magazines lying around that I could put to good use?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 05, 2020, 11:42:37 am

The Rise of the Gretas!  Where did I put my fly swatter?

Quite.  If it isn't her, it's Ardern
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 05, 2020, 01:02:43 pm
From what I've read, this year's version of the flu will have a greater impact than COVID-19.

As Lance Corporal Jones used to say, "Don't Panic!"  Or was it. "They don't like it up 'em!"?
Yes, agreed.

I listened to a show last night that was a couple of doctors who volunteer in China, it sounds very similar to the video above. They said the biggest problem seems to be that people who test positive for COVID-19 are often also infected with the current Influenza, the coincident infections are a big problem for the elderly.

All this paranoia reminds me of a video showing Naomi Campbell giving advice about safe travel, telling people to wear masks, gloves and sit in a window seat. The video shows her wiping everything down with Dettol wipes, like she is isolating herself from Ebola, before she sits down for the flight of course in 1st or Business class! ::) I wonder if she is sponsored by Dettol , the wipes by the way do pretty much squat for prevention of any coronavirus or any virus, but they could be useful for bacteria?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 05, 2020, 01:22:40 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssoyy7FrSXs
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 05, 2020, 01:23:44 pm
Lock yourself away, no travel ban for Italians!

The Nonnas are coming,
The Nonnas are coming,
The Nonnas are coming!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/bav0sqULH_6PqcabJN2YjF-BDLWEZMrPXObrZtizu8cbROMESoszHPKIlzeJne4DiN47hGMUEpEHKpjlfO8iDmLY-al1VswMPBCwdTKyBCSZmuQbypNF8VsZwtQfig1dIjOXGd_00g)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 05, 2020, 01:45:54 pm
You'll be the butt of jokes if you keep that up LP.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 05, 2020, 04:21:26 pm
You'll be the butt of jokes if you keep that up LP.
 
They can laugh, but I've got all the corn I need! ;)

(https://images.unsplash.com/photo-1551754655-cd27e38d2076?ixlib=rb-1.2.1&ixid=eyJhcHBfaWQiOjEyMDd9&auto=format&fit=crop&w=1000&q=80)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 05, 2020, 04:46:40 pm
We were down to two rolls of dunny paper but Mrs DJC managed to track some down at a local servo.  That should tide us over until the panic subsides and supplies get back to normal.  Apart from toilet paper, the supermarket shelves were being cleared of canned pet food.  It’s good to see that panic-struck folk are thinking of their pets ... unless they’re buying it for themselves 🤔

Meanwhile, Scotty from marketing was on the box beating up COVID-19 again.  I guess he’s in a no win situation; if he presented a positive, non-alarmist message no-one would believe him  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 05, 2020, 05:28:31 pm
We were down to two rolls of dunny paper but Mrs DJC managed to track some down at a local servo.  That should tide us over until the panic subsides and supplies get back to normal.  Apart from toilet paper, the supermarket shelves were being cleared of canned pet food.  It’s good to see that panic-struck folk are thinking of their pets ... unless they’re buying it for themselves 🤔

Meanwhile, Scotty from marketing was on the box beating up COVID-19 again.  I guess he’s in a no win situation; if he presented a positive, non-alarmist message no-one would believe him  ::)

DJ...You could probably turn those two toilet rolls into a new Holden if you bargained hard..😜
Rumour that a restaurant in NSW is offering a free toilet roll with every meal over $50....some idiot got himself tasered by the plods in Tamworth after starting a fight over a pack of toilet rolls in a bigW..🤔.
Some local entrepreneurs in Thailand were re-ironing used surgical masks and selling them to their fellow locals.....thats the community spirit you need.😒
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 05, 2020, 06:08:37 pm
Mortality rate corona = 3.4%.  Influenza = 1.0%.  Spanish flu = 10 to 20%
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 05, 2020, 06:25:29 pm
Mortality rate corona = 3.4%.  Influenza = 1.0%.  Spanish flu = 10 to 20%
COVID19 0.4-1.0%, figures unreliable because of many asymptomatic and unreported cases
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 05, 2020, 11:32:27 pm
COVID19 0.4-1.0%, figures unreliable because of many asymptomatic and unreported cases

There's an interesting WHO report on the interweb.

It seems that a significant number of COVID-19 fatalities have other illnesses including the latest flu virus.  It also seems to be more serious for males.

For some reason "Spill the Wine" springs to mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i0DMbCKnAg&list=RD3i0DMbCKnAg&start_radio=1&t=49

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 06, 2020, 08:17:56 am
Mortality rate corona = 3.4%.  Influenza = 1.0%.  Spanish flu = 10 to 20%
Interesting, there was some discussion on one of the science podcasts talking about the H1N1 and how that historical situation could be very similar to now, in that they had identified H1N1(Maybe H5N1 as well, apparently now there is some doubt it was a single strain acting) but the sample set is relatively low and they were looking for an Influenza specifically. So now they think they should go back and check for an additional factor like coronavirus. But apparently there were other circumstances which affected the epidemiology surrounding the Spanish Flu, not sure what they were.

btw., The real figures for Spanish Flu were probably also about 2%, the infection rates were only in the 20% range. Still that is many times normal Flu which is typically 0.1% SDR. There were higher rates in Polynesia and other previous isolated places, up to 20% SDR, primarily due to the low resistance in those communities and their recent exposure to Western civilisation. Similar to when the Spanish introduced measles to South America.

A great book to read, a bit heavy on the reading but still worthwhile, is Jared Diamond - Guns, Germs and Steel.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 06, 2020, 09:13:58 am

A great book to read, a bit heavy on the reading but still worthwhile, is Jared Diamond - Guns, Germs and Steel.
My brother in law gave that to me years ago, couldnt get into it. Reading is not a favourite pass time of mine, maybe I should have another crack.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on March 06, 2020, 09:14:32 am
His book "collapse" proposes better researched case studies to support the discussion he raises,  through I did enjoy his earlier tome,  GG+S.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 06, 2020, 12:29:04 pm

A great book to read, a bit heavy on the reading but still worthwhile, is Jared Diamond - Guns, Germs and Steel.

Read that a few years ago now - very enlightening. Could be time to dip into it again.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 06, 2020, 12:48:42 pm
His book "collapse" proposes better researched case studies to support the discussion he raises,  through I did enjoy his earlier tome,  GG+S.
I haven't read it yet but there are very positive reviews about Upheaval, probably it's not going to be a favorite if you are a Trump booster.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5f/Upheaval_-_How_Nations_Cope_with_Crisis_and_Change.jpg/220px-Upheaval_-_How_Nations_Cope_with_Crisis_and_Change.jpg)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 06, 2020, 03:07:54 pm
I'm no Trump fan, but the Democrats are a total joke....

Joe Biden or Bernie Sanders - like seriously?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 06, 2020, 03:27:15 pm
... and no Warren.  Couldn't even win her home state
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 06, 2020, 03:52:22 pm
In the USA it all comes down to who holds the balance of power at state level and what the Gerrymander looks like. It's the most corrupt democratic system on the planet!

For example, look at the history.
There is a Republican run state which passed a law saying you have to show your drivers license to vote, then it closed all the DMV(Dept Motor Vehicles) branches in the majority African American electorates so the voters in those electorates without a drivers licence can't get a drivers licence. Of course it was challenged in court, so the state is forced to re-open the DMV branches by the courts, but they re-open them only the day before the poll and voters still can't get a drivers licence in time. Further, the gerrymander kicked in because they had redrawn the boundaries so that just a handful of electorates had a 99% majority African American led Democrat vote, and all the many other electorates had a safe 53% Republican vote. That was the George Jnr year, when he won by 700 votes, but in reality hundreds of thousands of votes had been invalidated by questionable practices. Now I'm not a booster or basher of either, but these are the same people that label Clinton corrupt!

FMD, how is there not a civil war!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on March 06, 2020, 04:43:06 pm
Lots has happened recently regarding the US election. Let's keep the topics separate.

https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=2457.0

(Sorry old habits, die hard) ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 06, 2020, 05:58:29 pm
It's all good now, I got toilet paper today. No more newspaper and old CheatsFC newsletters. The bot bot will be very happy...for now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 06, 2020, 06:13:55 pm
It's all good now, I got toilet paper today. No more newspaper and old CheatsFC newsletters. The bot bot will be very happy...for now.
Looked on Ebay and there was a Quilton 24 pack for $220 plus $40 delivery.......😎 must be someone taking the No 1's..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on March 06, 2020, 06:19:05 pm
The irony is that the 'dills that went troppo' for the toilet paper actually made it so that sane people who would just purchase on a needs basis were left struggling to find some if they hadn't made a recent purchase.
They were able to say 'Who is silly now?"...well it's still you, you silly rabid folks!
Makes you wonder how things would go in a real apocalyptic situation....seeing this is just the "pre-season"

There's also now the stigma many will feel now when they actually get around to making a legitimate purchase.
The judgemental glances we'll receive at the checkouts for our 8 rolls of double length Quilton.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 06, 2020, 06:39:58 pm
The irony is that the 'dills that went troppo' for the toilet paper actually made it so that sane people who would just purchase on a needs basis were left struggling to find some if they hadn't made a recent purchase.
They were able to say 'Who is silly now?"...well it's still you, you silly rabid folks!
Makes you wonder how things would go in a real apocalyptic situation....seeing this is just the "pre-season"

There's also now the stigma many will feel now when they actually get around to making a legitimate purchase.
The judgemental glances we'll receive at the checkouts for our 8 rolls of double length Quilton.

re: Apocalyptic situation.....thats the serious side to this, if there was a natural disaster, war or similar I dont think the community spirit would carry us very far and it would be every man/woman for him/her self in a lot of cases.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 06, 2020, 08:30:38 pm
The ONLY reason I became accustomed to interstate beers can be traced back to the frequent CUB strikes of the 70s.  To this day, I'll still enjoy a Coopers pale ale.  So we never really ran out of beer.  But this stuff is insane
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 07, 2020, 07:18:44 am
re: Apocalyptic situation.....thats the serious side to this, if there was a natural disaster, war or similar I dont think the community spirit would carry us very far and it would be every man/woman for him/her self in a lot of cases.

Rationing would rapidly be implemented. This was still in place in my boyhood but I'm not sure how people would cope with it now. The black market would thrive of course as it did then. Plenty of opportunity for budding entrepreneurs.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 07, 2020, 10:10:52 am
I’m in Mansfield for the weekend and the dunny roll panic hasn’t struck here; the shelves are full ... and it’s only a two hour drive from Melbourne if you’re desperate 🤪
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 07, 2020, 10:17:08 am
Orbost ... same
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 07, 2020, 11:44:52 am
Just got home from Woollies down the Bellarine Peninsula, no toilet paper, no tissues, almost no rice left either
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 07, 2020, 01:25:04 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLD2Me-rGPk

Just another day at the supermarket.....thats why I pick Woolies..😎
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 07, 2020, 02:35:29 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLD2Me-rGPk

Just another day at the supermarket.....thats why I pick Woolies..😎
Just putrid. We need to put this guy in charge, he'd sort out the imbeciles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB3fROT3f2M

"They're gone now, and there aint nuttin you can do about that"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 07, 2020, 03:32:36 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLD2Me-rGPk

Just another day at the supermarket.....thats why I pick Woolies..😎
They are so full of crap, you can understand their urgency! ;D

I feel sorry for the imbeciles, in this case I'm being descriptive not derogatory!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on March 07, 2020, 04:56:21 pm
Just a positive one...Coles at Wynnum Plaza today.
Walked into empty shelves and just as I was about to go to the next aisle out came a trolley of TP.
No mad rush. Folks just stood back while the store people unloaded.
After they'd finished people helped themselves and just about everyone only took a single packet despite a store limit of 4.
Maybe it's calming down a bit.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 07, 2020, 05:05:28 pm
That's great to hear Lods, I hope that spreads quickly
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 07, 2020, 05:49:59 pm
Yesterday in Aldi there was just one four pack of 3ply sitting all alone in the middle of a huge empty space of a about 5 pallets. As I walked passed it was an eerie feeling - at first I though something dreadful would happen if anyone picked it up. Why hadn't this one pack been taken already. As I walked past it I looked around - no one looking - so I then casually swept it up and threw it into my trolley - the world did not end - there was no wipe out so to speak!! No one winced or strained in fact. Maybe the great dunny roll crisis is reaching its end. I read somewhere that the warehouses are full of it - just a matter of getting it to the stores, which takes a bit of time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 07, 2020, 10:40:48 pm
I read somewhere that the warehouses are full of it - just a matter of getting it to the stores, which takes a bit of time.
Yep.

Stores are upping their deliveries to 3 times a week to cover the crazy demand for the rolled stuff. Its not about supply, its about delivery....and that will soon cease to be an issue.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 07, 2020, 10:56:48 pm
I read somewhere that the warehouses are full of it - just a matter of getting it to the stores, which takes a bit of time.
The warehouses are bulk tissue stores, our country and New Zealand is full of the stuff, a roll weighs 2000 ~ 3000kg and is 2.4m wide.

 It has to be converted to retail rolls via slitting, lamination and rewinding, then packaged and delivered to the stores. A potential problem is that the companies that make the plastic outer wrappers are short on raw material resin supplies that mostly come from mass production in China.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 09, 2020, 09:59:47 pm
Just got home from Woollies down the Bellarine Peninsula, no toilet paper, no tissues, almost no rice left either

Woolies at Curlewis had plenty of dunny roll today ... and no-one was buying it.  Either the panic is subsiding or folk have nowhere left to store their stash  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 10, 2020, 08:05:20 am
Woolies at Curlewis had plenty of dunny roll today ... and no-one was buying it.  Either the panic is subsiding or folk have nowhere left to store their stash  ::)
The sun is shining and the grass is green and growing! ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/dIN6i.gif)

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 10, 2020, 05:18:12 pm
Woolies at Curlewis had plenty of dunny roll today ... and no-one was buying it.  Either the panic is subsiding or folk have nowhere left to store their stash  ::)
There's a Woolies at Curlewis now? I need to get out more
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on March 10, 2020, 08:46:52 pm
There's entire suburbs that weren't at Curlewis last week.  Development on the Bellarine  is OOC.

They'll finish the f++++++g bypass eventually.   How long to build 3 km of road...three years?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 11, 2020, 09:16:27 am
There's entire suburbs that weren't at Curlewis last week.  Development on the Bellarine  is OOC.

They'll finish the f++++++g bypass eventually.   How long to build 3 km of road...three years?

It’s all the additional works that are getting up my goat Prof.  I think that they must realise that the secondary roads are substandard when they build bypass intersections.  I was working in St Leonards yesterday (another housing development) and the trip down Mooraduc Road took forever  ::)

... And the Jetty Road roundabout is gone today!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2020, 11:18:33 am
It’s all the additional works that are getting up my goat Prof.  I think that they must realise that the secondary roads are substandard when they build bypass intersections.  I was working in St Leonards yesterday (another housing development) and the trip down Moorooduc Road took forever  ::)
 Don't you mean Murradoc Road, otherwise that is a hell of a circuitous route! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Tragic on March 11, 2020, 01:31:00 pm
g'day Bellarine boys.   
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 11, 2020, 02:16:10 pm
Us Bellarine CSC boys should congregate at a local pub to watch our next interstate game together?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 11, 2020, 04:25:27 pm
 
Don't you mean Murradoc Road, otherwise that is a hell of a circuitous route! ;D

Not sure where those Os came from LP - perhaps I’m used to writing my sister’s address in Mooloolaba  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 11, 2020, 04:28:09 pm
Us Bellarine CSC boys should congregate at a local pub to watch our next interstate game together?

Sounds like a plan Jack 🍻
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2020, 04:53:31 pm

Not sure where those Os came from LP - perhaps I’m used to writing my sister’s address in Mooloolaba  :)
Pinched them from over my way! ;)

Sounds like a plan Jack 🍻
I'm very tempted to jump on the ferry if I'm free!

Maybe there might be a Westernport version one day, French Island as the middle ground between, I believe it's got a pub now!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 11, 2020, 05:18:58 pm
Pinched them from over my way! ;)
I'm very tempted to jump on the ferry if I'm free!

Maybe there might be a Westernport version one day, French Island as the middle ground between, I believe it's got a pub now!

Likewise. But I'd have to use the Westernport ferry which has ridiculous hours of operation... would probably find myself stranded for the night either on the Bellarine Peninsula, or Portsea, or Crib Point!!!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Tragic on March 11, 2020, 05:57:12 pm
Us Bellarine CSC boys should congregate at a local pub to watch our next interstate game together?

I'm in OG but had a beer in the Drysdale hotel beer garden the other week after a fish in the bay, wasn't too bad.  I'm in, but with the caveat i'm on call every 3rd week, and if my missus is working i'm shot looking after the kiddies.  I'm notoriously unreliable when it comes to making plans, so never plan around me...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 11, 2020, 06:18:39 pm
Maybe there might be a Westernport version one day, French Island as the middle ground between, I believe it's got a pub now!

Where you located down there?

I've been renovating a place in Coronet bay for the past couple of years.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2020, 08:20:53 pm
I'm on the other side of the Peninsula, over at Sth Franganistan.

We use to get around your side a bit but the horses are banned there now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 12, 2020, 10:30:21 am
Where you located down there?

I've been renovating a place in Coronet bay for the past couple of years.

Holy mackerel K, we're just down the road from you. And, likewise, been renovating a place on the Island for the past 2 years... hoping to finish by the end of April!

And, Spotted One, Franganistan is where I ran riot as a kid. I used to see Dermie at the Foot Street shops from time to time.

Maybe the 3 of us could watch a game or 3 at the Tooradin Sports Club...roughly half way - I could pick you up on the way through, K? And catch a NBs game at Franger and Cranbourne?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 12, 2020, 10:37:53 am
So... Has anyone run out of toilet paper yet?

We are down to our last couple of rolls. My wife has gone to the shops everyday this week and had no luck.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on March 12, 2020, 11:25:13 am
You could use squares cut from the small paper,  but watch for cuts as they might get septic from the poisonous bile published therein.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 12, 2020, 11:58:29 am
So... Has anyone run out of toilet paper yet?

We are down to our last couple of rolls. My wife has gone to the shops everyday this week and had no luck.

Bought some petrol today and at the servo a couple of people were fighting over some tissue boxes which where double the price. 😒..
re: Toilet paper...google coles stores and search for toilet paper, it will show stock levels although if it says limited it means none...

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 12, 2020, 12:18:09 pm
So... Has anyone run out of toilet paper yet?

We are down to our last couple of rolls. My wife has gone to the shops everyday this week and had no luck.

The Mitre 10 in Wallington is selling dunny roll now.  Supplies must be OK if outlets that don’t normally stock dunny roll can get their hands on several pallet loads  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on March 12, 2020, 12:20:02 pm
Buying bread at Port this morning,  signs saying "no returns" on stuff like TP,  sanitizer, bread mix,  pasta etc.

Means - you stockpiled it,  now you're stuck with it.  Enjoy the 400 tins of creamed corn you selfish prick.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 12, 2020, 12:27:05 pm
Maybe the 3 of us could watch a game or 3 at the Tooradin Sports Club...roughly half way - I could pick you up on the way through, K? And catch a NBs game at Franger and Cranbourne?
The missus was at Tides last weekend doing some horse stuff over that way, anything is possible.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mantis on March 12, 2020, 12:40:37 pm
So... Has anyone run out of toilet paper yet?

We are down to our last couple of rolls. My wife has gone to the shops everyday this week and had no luck.

Coles and Woolworths get supply every day. You need to call them to find out what time they get delivery and wait. It will only be big packs of 24. It won’t be put on the shelf. It will be brought out on a pallet and snapped up in 15 mins. Go and speak to the store manager. One pack per customer.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 12, 2020, 01:49:35 pm
NBA season suspended.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 12, 2020, 02:41:39 pm
I'm in OG but had a beer in the Drysdale hotel beer garden the other week after a fish in the bay, wasn't too bad.  I'm in, but with the caveat i'm on call every 3rd week, and if my missus is working i'm shot looking after the kiddies.  I'm notoriously unreliable when it comes to making plans, so never plan around me...
Small world, I was in the Drysdale pub beer garden on Sunday
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 12, 2020, 04:11:39 pm
The Mitre 10 in Wallington is selling dunny roll now.  Supplies must be OK if outlets that don’t normally stock dunny roll can get their hands on several pallet loads  ::)
Yeah, it's not the available reserve, we don't really have a store of it because it's made 24x7 most of the time. It's the ability to get the deliveries that are the problem, and how much shelf space stores are willing to allocate to wiping your ar5e!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 12, 2020, 04:25:25 pm
Not exactly the hardest of generations in history  ::)  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 12, 2020, 05:05:29 pm
Apparently some people are resorting to using other materials instead of toilet paper and these could begin to cause major problems by blocking sewer pipes. ::) 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 12, 2020, 05:15:44 pm
Not exactly the hardest of generations in history  ::) 
There's an idea, sandpaper, I bet Bunnings and Mitre10 have plenty!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 12, 2020, 05:16:27 pm
Apparently some people are resorting to using other materials instead of toilet paper and these could begin to cause major problems by blocking sewer pipes. ::) 
I've heard Bum Guns are popular, but apparently they have sold out from most hardware stores!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 12, 2020, 06:01:00 pm
There's an idea, sandpaper, I bet Bunnings and Mitre10 have plenty!
Gaffer tape...you get a wax as well...😎
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 12, 2020, 06:19:04 pm
Apparently some people are resorting to using other materials instead of toilet paper and these could begin to cause major problems by blocking sewer pipes. ::) 
Apparently the supposedly "flushable wet wipes" are actually not flushable. Major problems ahead if the toilet paper hoarders don't calm the heck down
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 12, 2020, 06:36:56 pm
There's never been an end to stupid.  We just happen to have a virulent strain of it
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 12, 2020, 08:07:07 pm
Holy mackerel K, we're just down the road from you. And, likewise, been renovating a place on the Island for the past 2 years... hoping to finish by the end of April!

And, Spotted One, Franganistan is where I ran riot as a kid. I used to see Dermie at the Foot Street shops from time to time.

Maybe the 3 of us could watch a game or 3 at the Tooradin Sports Club...roughly half way - I could pick you up on the way through, K? And catch a NBs game at Franger and Cranbourne?

Where on the island? We were originally looking there, but got priced out while we dragged our feet.

I've basically finished......finally. Got a couple weekends of packing up, cleaning up and renting out the joint. I'm hoping Easter weekend is the last i have to be down that way for a while. It is about 2 hours away from home. So once i'm done, i will have my weekends back and won't have any need to venture down that way for a long time.....sick of the drive!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 12, 2020, 08:39:56 pm
Where on the island? We were originally looking there, but got priced out while we dragged our feet.

I've basically finished......finally. Got a couple weekends of packing up, cleaning up and renting out the joint. I'm hoping Easter weekend is the last i have to be down that way for a while. It is about 2 hours away from home. So once i'm done, i will have my weekends back and won't have any need to venture down that way for a long time.....sick of the drive!

I know the feeling... getting to know the Bass Hwy far too well!

We were lucky re price. Although the Island wasn't too affected by the downturn, we stumbled across a place in Cowes... 8 min walk to the beach and less to the IGA, Mitre 10 and other shops/servos. Worst house in the street... shocker from the street and I reckon most folks didn't even go inside! Not a typical holiday house as was architect designed so bones were good/huge kitchen/open plan - I had to do the lot from top to bottom, inside and out. Had to get electricians and plumbers from time to time for legal work, other than that I ruined my back doing most myself -painting/building fences/gates bla bla bla.

Maybe one w/e before Easter we'll all catch up at Tooradin to watch a game at the pub. By then we might have some bog rolls on the Island! None to be found... just as well Mrs Baggers is interstate for a couple of weeks! We intend to move later in the year after flogging this place.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 13, 2020, 09:23:39 am
With the GP banning crowds looks like it will be an empty MCG next Thursday... be an interesting experience for the players! Maybe they could b'cast canned cheering and boos...  😁
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on March 13, 2020, 09:35:59 am
I brought my first pack of TP yesterday in 30 years at the Woolies in Portland. I couldn't go past them and felt like a dick at the checkout. There was a well dressed seemingly intelligent middle aged woman in front with one of the feircest expressions I've ever seen. All because she wanted an extra pack. She gave the poor checkout girl heaps and held up the queue and my pack for ages. I think she must've been holding one in by the look of her. The friendly IGA from now on for me.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 13, 2020, 11:33:23 am
With the GP banning crowds looks like it will be an empty MCG next Thursday... be an interesting experience for the players! Maybe they could b'cast canned cheering and boos...  😁
Reckon we might get a cutback season, I'd expect some form of mild lockdown measures to be employed by the state government, power distribution companies are running skeleton crews now so they dont get everyone sick at once and even temperature testing the distribution switch staff who are a small but highly trained group, without them there would be no power.
We have a wedding to attend in three weeks with a group of about 200 expected, the reception management have advised the
bride and groom they might have to make other arrangements.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 13, 2020, 11:35:28 am
There's an idea, sandpaper, I bet Bunnings and Mitre10 have plenty!
Bunnings sell commercial Toilet paper in large rolls, buy a box of that and you will be covered for 6-12 months.
Supplies dwindling however and no re-stocking..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 13, 2020, 12:25:36 pm
If sporting events are being closed then surely public transport and schools which are the worst places for spreading viruses should be too.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 13, 2020, 12:38:19 pm
If sporting events are being closed then surely public transport and schools which are the worst places for spreading viruses should be too.

Going to happen with schools IMO, my son is a primary teacher and its already an item for discussion with home based curriculum on the drawing board.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 13, 2020, 12:50:57 pm
Going to happen with schools IMO, my son is a primary teacher and its already an item for discussion with home based curriculum on the drawing board.

Just had a good chat with my local pharmacist, who usually stocks bog rolls, and he reckons that there is plenty of profiteering going on with the dunny rolls through e-Bay etc AND being sent to China ...a la kiddies formula.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 13, 2020, 01:02:44 pm
Just had a good chat with my local pharmacist, who usually stocks bog rolls, and he reckons that there is plenty of profiteering going on with the dunny rolls through e-Bay etc AND being sent to China ...a la kiddies formula.
For sure, Ebay has ridiculous ads for toilet paper and current affair had this person of international extraction selling Toilet paper for $2K for a large multipack.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 13, 2020, 01:20:27 pm
European schools being closed on mass in different countries, cant be too long before its the same here, Flight Centre closing 100 stores, going to be unemployment problems here in Aus.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 13, 2020, 01:49:46 pm
Bunnings sell commercial Toilet paper in large rolls, buy a box of that and you will be covered for 6-12 months.
Supplies dwindling however and no re-stocking..
Westfarmers buy on price, the cheap stuff from China, China re-opened all it's industry yesterday, but there will be weeks of backlog and even the shipping lead-time is about 4-6 weeks.

If a worker gets COVID-19 at Kimberley Clarke, Asaleo or The Sorbent they'll have no choice but to close those factories!

I know in some of the big organisations/companies there has been talk of having "virus shifts", because form most workers it's just a runny nose that won;t stop them working, so they'll lump them altogether into contaminated strike-teams and have them work together with fogging procedures in-between shifts. Let's wait and see that go wrong!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 13, 2020, 02:05:27 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/national/australian-schools-offices-should-be-closed-immediately-experts-20200312-p549gi.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 13, 2020, 02:10:54 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/national/australian-schools-offices-should-be-closed-immediately-experts-20200312-p549gi.html
Interesting isn't it, the reaction from The Rage and News Ltd, socialists want anarchy, News Ltd wants profit and control, or perhaps even Rupert preservation?

Trump closes the borders, but they already have COVID-19 there, they'll start shooting kids who get too close to the President soon! Those really in need of protection are the elderly with respiratory conditions, not healthy school kids.

Last year there was a very sad story, a mother was a germaphobe who never let her little girl get dirty or socialise with a kid who had a runny nose, she kept the house sterilized and disinfected. At 13 the girl caught and died from the flu! The point is kids will get COVID-19 eventually, and getting it in their youth gives them long term resistance to COVID-19 and potentially other related strains of coronavirus. Shielding them too much now might not be doing the right thing for them long term, they might escape a COVID-19 infection, but what about the next one, and there will be a next one there is no doubt about that?

Most people, the vast majority get a sore throat and runny nose, some get a headache and fever, some get a headache and fever just from reading the papers, the over the top reaction from the trivially inflicted floods the wards with people who do not need to be there, locking away hospital beds for the few people who really need them, those who have a severe reaction or pre-existing condition.

Even on the "Death Ships" as the media now call them, only about 50% of people got COVID-19, despite being trapped in that confined and infected space serviced by a handful of equally infected staff, and only a fraction of that 50% needed any critical care. What really putting the wind up the politicians and media types is this, the people in control in those positions of power are old like me, and they are more susceptible to complications like pneumonia than their children or grandchildren. Most of the decision makers are independently wealthy, they don't have to worry about not having a job next week or next month!

We are such a selfish race, as shown by the bog roll debacle, and gutless as well!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 13, 2020, 03:02:54 pm
European schools being closed on mass in different countries, cant be too long before its the same here, Flight Centre closing 100 stores, going to be unemployment problems here in Aus.

Qantas and Virgin along with Jetstar and Tiger will be hurt dramatically.  Mass layoffs   
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 13, 2020, 03:05:01 pm
Qantas and Virgin along with Jetstar and Tiger will be hurt dramatically.  Mass layoffs
Norbits are running around boasting and laughing about getting an unscheduled holiday, they won't be laughing in a week or two when the factory or office doesn't re-open!

Tradies are already hurting, the order books are quickly emptying, the flow on will be dramatic!

The first thing to do is turn off the TV and radio, so the panic merchants an social anarchists suffer as much as you! You wait and see, they'll sit around and claim they are offering a public service and must be exempted! They are the real cause of this panic, not the virus! ;)

Please do not get me wrong, I'm not claiming the virus shouldn't be respected, but let's be realistic about it compared to say skin cancer or the road toll. As many or more people will be killed on the way home today by an aberrant driver, some might even be killed by a driver who has been panicked into drinking or insomnia by the virus hysteria!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 13, 2020, 03:36:33 pm
Lance Corporal Jones from Dad's Army "DON'T PANIC" !!!! :) :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 13, 2020, 03:46:37 pm
Lance Corporal Jones from Dad's Army "DON'T PANIC" !!!! :) :)
 (https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DismalNiceDwarfmongoose-size_restricted.gif)
At your service!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 13, 2020, 04:33:16 pm
Those Corona virus's don't like it up 'em Capt Mainwairing!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 13, 2020, 04:37:20 pm
The health system's economic rationalists have evaporated faster than the Greenies at a bush fire!

We've built a health system that has just but not quite enough, not a square to spare!

A 90% cure for everybody! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 13, 2020, 04:48:02 pm
The advice coming out of the government is so bloody confusing. Gatherings of more than 500 people are banned, but not until Monday! Why wait? AFLW is going ahead tonight. What? GP was just cancelled! Gatherings of 500 or more are banned, this doesnt apply to public transport, Schools or Unis! Che? FFS
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 13, 2020, 04:51:21 pm
The advice coming out of the government is so bloody confusing. Gatherings of more than 500 people are banned, but not until Monday! Why wait? AFLW is going ahead tonight. What? GP was just cancelled! Gatherings of 500 or more are banned, this doesnt apply to public transport, Schools or Unis! Che? FFS
Scotty from Marketing hard at work!

In reality banning schools and uni might be counterproductive, as the epidemiology suggests most kids will get a cough or sore throat and get over it very quickly with a newly developed partial immunity. Lock up their parents/grandparents instead? :o

As I wrote before, it's the rise of the Gretas, poor old Andrew Bolt, Alan Jones and Rupert Murdoch must be hyperventilating!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on March 13, 2020, 05:01:36 pm
Isn't the covid 19 linked to climate change?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 13, 2020, 05:05:57 pm
Isn't the covid 19 linked to climate change?
Carbon
Overload
Verified
In
Dead
2019
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 13, 2020, 05:06:08 pm
Isn't the covid 19 linked to climate change?
Nah, Donald Trump
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 13, 2020, 05:06:47 pm
Nah, Donald Trump
Donald's a goner, kissed a baby..........!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 13, 2020, 05:31:59 pm
When HIV-AIDS was threatening, Bob Hawke and Andrew Peacock agreed to assemble a team of health experts, provide them with ample funding and get out of their way.  What chance do we have of Scotty from marketing and Albo coming up with a similar approach?  ::)

Even though COVID-19 has a much lower mortality rate than many other diseases, including the seasonal flu, I understand that it is the rapid spread of the virus that puts health systems under immense pressure - as happened in Italy.  In that context, allowing large crowds to attend events until Monday seems to be half-arsed.

That said, it may be best to keep schools open.  30% of health workers have school age children and having them off work to look after their children would cause the system to fail. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 13, 2020, 05:36:20 pm
The advice coming out of the government is so bloody confusing. Gatherings of more than 500 people are banned, but not until Monday! Why wait? AFLW is going ahead tonight. What? GP was just cancelled! Gatherings of 500 or more are banned, this doesnt apply to public transport, Schools or Unis! Che? FFS
My sons school where he works are preparing to close and do online teaching from home, probably happen early next week.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 13, 2020, 07:05:08 pm
Why was the grand prix not allowed fans but the AFLW are?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 13, 2020, 07:11:10 pm
Why was the grand prix not allowed fans but the AFLW are?

There is no 1 answer to that question.

But....the f1 decision was forced because drivers, specifically Raikkonen and Vettel had flown out before the race was even cancelled.
McLaren had already said they were not racing before that.

So if 1 team is not racing (out of 10) and at least an additional 2 drivers (out of 20) are not racing....there isn't much for the fans to watch is there.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 13, 2020, 07:30:06 pm
Eddie said this morning that the grand prix organisers wanted to go ahead but the government said it would be in front of no fans. Hence the delayed announcement.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 13, 2020, 07:34:08 pm
Why was the grand prix not allowed fans but the AFLW are?
Drivers drove the "we arent racing" agenda the minute a team member tested positive.(they were on flights out at 6am this morning well before the announcement was made)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on March 13, 2020, 07:57:19 pm
I don't know about you people but if the drivers knew to leave on 6 am flights but the punters were left at the gates waiting for information until 10 am, those overseeing this clusterfcuk need to have a very good explanation.  I'm not sure what charges could be laid but I'd certainly be sending a rather pointed "please explain" letter if I was Andrews ET Al.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 13, 2020, 10:54:35 pm
I know very little about F1 - and care less - but I understand that races may only proceed if all teams are involved.  Once McLaren pulled out, our GP had to be cancelled/postponed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 14, 2020, 06:47:41 am
I see the best joke about Covid-19 has just gone viral.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 14, 2020, 10:01:41 am
 
Us Bellarine CSC boys should congregate at a local pub to watch our next interstate game together?

We may be watching a lot more than interstate games at the pub  :(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 14, 2020, 10:02:21 am

We may be watching a lot more than interstate games at the pub  :(
Pubs will be closed if you believe the hysteria.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 14, 2020, 10:47:33 am
Pubs will be closed if you believe the hysteria.
Now that will lead to rebellion
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 14, 2020, 10:51:30 am
Now that will lead to rebellion

Forget TP, load up on grog!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 14, 2020, 11:12:18 am
Forget TP, load up on grog!
Way ahead of you kruddler
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 14, 2020, 02:10:57 pm
I understand that the AFL is meeting to figure out how to proceed.  One possibility is that Collingwood and Essendon will play each other every round and their supporters will be encouraged to attend  ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 14, 2020, 02:14:07 pm
Patrick Dangerfield tweeting that CV affected Polly Peter Dutton should be sent to Christmas island to see how he likes it......reckon Danger should stick to trying to do his job properly as president of the players association rather than going the political satire route in these sensitive times. Its all about timing whether kicking a ball or being a smart ar$e....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 14, 2020, 02:15:52 pm
I understand that the AFL is meeting to figure out how to proceed.  One possibility is that Collingwood and Essendon will play each other every round and their supporters will be encouraged to attend  ;)
This is amusing satire and well timed...😎
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on March 14, 2020, 03:03:18 pm
Patrick Dangerfield tweeting that CV affected Polly Peter Dutton should be sent to Christmas island to see how he likes it......reckon Danger should stick to trying to do his job properly as president of the players association rather than going the political satire route in these sensitive times. Its all about timing whether kicking a ball or being a smart ar$e....

Agree. Has tickets on himself. Will leave the game in most fans eyes as a flog.

His very own teammates aren’t even fans hence why they avoided voting for him last year in MVP.

That in itself speaks volumes of the bloke.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: sandsmere on March 14, 2020, 03:30:36 pm


I understand that the AFL is meeting to figure out how to proceed.  One possibility is that Collingwood and Essendon will play each other every round and their supporters will be encouraged to attend  ;)

Very good DJC.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 14, 2020, 03:54:15 pm
Patrick Dangerfield tweeting that CV affected Polly Peter Dutton should be sent to Christmas island to see how he likes it......reckon Danger should stick to trying to do his job properly as president of the players association rather than going the political satire route in these sensitive times. Its all about timing whether kicking a ball or being a smart ar$e....
Politicians never forget and Dangerfield stuck it to them, next time the AFL is begging for AFL funding that tweet is going to bite them, and they won't forget Dangerfield's influence!

Whether you like Dutton or not, nobody should be making smart-ar5e comments about his health!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 15, 2020, 05:21:00 pm
Another day in Woolies, ferals doing their thing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIigFsnPXRI
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 15, 2020, 08:32:53 pm
Another day in Woolies, ferals doing their thing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIigFsnPXRI
Just filthy animals, scourge of the Earth, worse than any virus.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 15, 2020, 09:02:32 pm
Pond scum
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 15, 2020, 09:21:00 pm
I have now started buying some items on-line. Stocks available but you may have to wait a little while for delivery - just plan ahead and no probs. Things were hectic at the local Aldi on Friday but people were still civil.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on March 15, 2020, 10:43:48 pm
Madness at the shops this morning but by about 1.00pm it had died down to a normal Sunday.
I suspect a lot of folks got a bit jittery after some of the restrictions that are being advised over the last few days and took the opportunity to stock up.

Surprisingly the only items I was looking for that were completely sold out at my particular Woolworths was pump soap.
Yesterday it was canned tomatoes.
They still had a couple of multi-packs of toilet paper.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 15, 2020, 11:46:11 pm
The Oligarch’s media isn’t helping with its sensationalist headlines, but what would you expect from that mob?

I heard the NRL head honcho crying out for Government assistance today.  If they aren’t bailed out, the NRL will be cactus.

For all Demetriou’s faults, he did have the foresight to establish a future fund that will cover the income lost from a cancelled season.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 16, 2020, 07:01:31 am
NRL can go jump. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 16, 2020, 08:21:05 am
The Oligarch’s media isn’t helping with its sensationalist headlines, but what would you expect from that mob?

I heard the NRL head honcho crying out for Government assistance today.  If they aren’t bailed out, the NRL will be cactus.

For all Demetriou’s faults, he did have the foresight to establish a future fund that will cover the income lost from a cancelled season.
I heard that imbecile on TV, reckons Australia is stuffed without NRL. Hahahaha, joke of a sport and comp.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 16, 2020, 09:53:56 am
We will be in lockdown within a week or so.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Tragic on March 16, 2020, 09:56:21 am
Fair chance the season won't start on time.  I'll be surprised if we play on Thursday.  I say round one should start when Charlie and Eddie are back to full fitness  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 16, 2020, 10:36:41 am
Just shut it down.  I cannot see any benefit in dancing around what is the bleedin' obvious.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 16, 2020, 12:37:24 pm
I think you'll get your wish, but people need to be wary of what it really is that they are wishing for!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 16, 2020, 12:53:46 pm
The word is shutdown on Wednesday.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 16, 2020, 01:11:06 pm
It isn't LP ... but better than listening to the pig squealing NRL begging for a handout.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on March 16, 2020, 02:12:37 pm
The word is shutdown on Wednesday.
  
 What is shutdown, the AFL?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 16, 2020, 03:33:34 pm
I think the AFLW should suspend the last two rounds and go straight into four team finals now, as that competition is virtually completed, the finalists are effectively decided, and the competition could be done and dusted within two weeks.

I think the AFL should suspend the start of the season.

From what I have heard the VFL and VAFA are already effectively suspended, it's just not official yet but the decision has been made.

Lots of suburban leagues are now suspended at all levels until further notice.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 16, 2020, 04:32:53 pm
The word is shutdown on Wednesday.

Seems inevitable now. Gee, looking forward to weeks of possible isolation with no footy on tv!!  :o  :(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 16, 2020, 04:38:32 pm
Have to delay the start of the season by at least a month.

Going to be a lot of December / January babies this year and next!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on March 16, 2020, 04:54:44 pm
How can a group of young men possibly have their total concentration on playing football at this time....especially when a look into the stands will reinforce that these are not normal times.

Stop it before it starts
.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 16, 2020, 04:57:44 pm
Seems inevitable now. Gee, looking forward to weeks of possible isolation with no footy on tv!!  :o  :(
Food and cookie shortage as well, you can't even grow fat and hibernate!

I think I missed the best advice going back a couple of weeks ago, stock up on grog and sleep it off!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2020, 11:44:16 am
I'm not going to comment on the severity or validity of the COVID-19 outbreak, I'm neither qualified or informed sufficiently to discuss it in any detail.

But I will make commentary about human behavior, in particular both political and the 4th estate.

Politicians are pissweak, some of the worst weather-vane human-beings that you will ever likely come across. Incapable of standing firm under social or media pressure, they fold at the hint of a poll for reasons of personal benefit, be it a bogus poll or otherwise!

The 4th Estate are culpable. Hiding behind banners of equality and community they destroy society for profit. Knowing fully that all opinions are not equal they willfully publishing crackpots and lunatics to apply pressure to people and officials for profit, they do so under the false pretenses of equality and anti-discrimination. Nothing more and nothing less, there isn't a one of them that is worth pissing on if they were on fire! Don't shoot the messenger is their defense, but what if it's the messenger and the message that does you the most harm?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 17, 2020, 12:40:28 pm
I hope The Age don't mind me posting this story of theirs from Health Journalist Melissa Cunningham. A very important positive story amid the avalanche of bad news. Here it is:

   Melbourne researchers have mapped the immune responses from one of Australia's coronavirus patients discovering for the first time how humans fight off the deadly virus, in the hope it could hold the secret to finding an effective vaccine.
By understanding how our bodies fight the deadly virus, researchers at Melbourne's Peter Doherty Institute for Infection say their findings could also fast-track treatments for the disease.
Scientists are searching for a breakthrough in the development of a coronavirus vaccine. CREDIT:AAP

As part of a study, the scientists tested at four different points in time blood samples of a woman in her mid-40s who had recently returned to Melbourne from Wuhan, the epicentre of the global outbreak of coronavirus.
The woman, who tested positive to COVID-19, was suffering from lethargy, sore throat, dry cough and a high fever when she presented at a Melbourne hospital.

Doctors took four blood samples before and after her recovery and identified the antibodies recruited by the body to fight the illness.
Laboratory head Katherine Kedzierska said the scientists found the woman's immune system responded to coronavirus in the similar way humans fight off influenza.
This suggests an otherwise healthy person could be expected to fight off a mild to moderate case of coronavirus in about three days.
"We found that although COVID-19 is caused by a new virus, in a previously healthy patient robust immune responses can be elicited and associated with clinical recovery," she said.
"What we found was that three days after the patient was admitted, we saw large populations of several immune cells, which are often a telltale sign of recovery during seasonal influenza infection, so we predicted that the patient would recover in three days, which is exactly what happened."
The findings, published in Nature Medicine Journal on Tuesday, are the first time a broad immune responses to COVID-19 has been reported globally.
Professor Kedzierska was hopeful their findings would help in the race for an effective vaccine.
"This is an incredible step forward in understanding what drives recovery of COVID-19," she said. "People can use our methods to understand the immune responses in larger COVID-19 cohorts, and also understand what’s lacking in those who have fatal outcomes."
The Doherty Institute's infectious disease specialist Irani Thevarajan had been planning for years for a global infectious disease outbreak that could affect Australia.
Her team had already set up a broad range of biological sampling to be used to test returned travellers in the event of a new and unexpected infectious disease outbreak.
When she heard of a mysterious new type of pneumonia sweeping through China and killing people, she sprang to action.
"When COVID-19 emerged, we already had ethics and protocols in place so we could rapidly start looking at the virus and immune system in great detail," Dr Thevarajan said.
Dr Thevarajan said current estimates show more than 80 per cent of COVID-19 cases are mild-to-moderate, and understanding the immune response in these mild cases is very important research.
"We hope to now expand our work nationally and internationally to understand why some people die from COVID-19, and build further knowledge to assist in the rapid response of COVID-19 and future emerging viruses," she said.
Melissa Cunningham
Melissa Cunningham is The Age's health reporter.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2020, 12:51:12 pm
Doctors took four blood samples before and after her recovery and identified the antibodies recruited by the body to fight the illness.
Laboratory head Katherine Kedzierska said the scientists found the woman's immune system responded to coronavirus in the similar way humans fight off influenza.

This suggests an otherwise healthy person could be expected to fight off a mild to moderate case of coronavirus in about three days.

"We found that although COVID-19 is caused by a new virus, in a previously healthy patient robust immune responses can be elicited and associated with clinical recovery," she said.

"What we found was that three days after the patient was admitted, we saw large populations of several immune cells, which are often a telltale sign of recovery during seasonal influenza infection, so we predicted that the patient would recover in three days, which is exactly what happened."
Who'd have thunk it, people who get the Flu vaccine might actually be better placed to fight of COVID-19, as vaccines elicit a an immune response!

Take that anti-vaxers, it smells like,
(https://media.giphy.com/media/PbTBkJB3ZBP0I/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 17, 2020, 12:59:31 pm
Good stuff Shano. Thanks for posting. No time for complacency, and unfortunately the high risk demographics will always be high risk, but that was a good read. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: rocky on March 17, 2020, 01:04:05 pm
The 4th Estate are culpable. Hiding behind banners of equality and community they destroy society for profit. Knowing fully that all opinions are not equal they wilfully publishing crackpots and lunatics to apply pressure to people and officials for profit, they do so under the false pretences of equality and anti-discrimination. Nothing more and nothing less, there isn't a one of them that is worth pissing on if they were on fire! Don't shoot the messenger is their defence, but what if it's the messenger and the message that does you the most harm?
Best post since this whole disaster started. How these mothers haven't been held to account for what is going on in our supermarkets beggars belief.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 17, 2020, 02:34:25 pm

But I will make commentary about human behavior, in particular both political and the 4th estate.

HS reporting a Woollies worker has been stabbed at Rosebud, he has been airlifted to hospital with non life threatening injuries. The offender is at large.
A bashing occured at a Coles in Brunswick and shoppers intervened and pinned him down until police arrived. The good and the bad are highlighted here.
WTF is wrong with people?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on March 17, 2020, 02:38:42 pm
My wife and I are in the high risk age group and being advised with dire warnings on tv and the print media that for our own protection we must self isolate for an indeterminate number of months.

Yet today, without any comment from media commentators, we see photos of hundreds of people in the high risk age group herded together, some  waiting for hours,  to shop for one hour  in supermarkets.

It is expected that this phenomenon will continue for five days a week, week in week out. 







Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on March 17, 2020, 02:42:03 pm
I pressed the post button too soon.

Surely there is no better way of ensuring this vulnerable group will contract CV.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2020, 04:12:15 pm
Notice how contrite Trump has become, that's because he's also in the target demographic.

Without wanting to offend anyone, what a great leveler nature is! The rich and powerful, those frequently rolling over the top of the weak, downtrodden and the environment without regard for any welfare, are often really elderly wealthy and they can't escape the possibility no matter how many dollars they hold!

I don't wish them harm, but let us see how long it takes before they(The rich and powerful) forget this dose of reality! It's partially a situation made by the push for greater margins on mass produced consumer products manufactured in low cost high density cheap labor environments.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 17, 2020, 07:34:01 pm
 8)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 17, 2020, 08:17:55 pm
Good stuff Shano. Thanks for posting. No time for complacency, and unfortunately the high risk demographics will always be high risk, but that was a good read. 

No probs, Pauly, and you are absolutely right re complacency. My goal was to 'balance the ledger' a little. Protecting our vulnerable is so damn important at the minute... My father (86 - bad emphysema) is in the very vulnerable category and getting this virus will likely finish him. He's as tough as boot leather and under lock and key in a nursing home. Hopefully a vaccine isn't as far away as usual.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 17, 2020, 08:21:41 pm
No probs, Pauly, and you are absolutely right re complacency. My goal was to 'balance the ledger' a little. Protecting our vulnerable is so damn important at the minute... My father (86 - bad emphysema) is in the very vulnerable category and getting this virus will likely finish him. He's as tough as boot leather and under lock and key in a nursing home. Hopefully a vaccine isn't as far away as usual.
18 months minimum was quoted today during the news story about the research work at the Peter Doherty Institute
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on March 17, 2020, 08:57:43 pm
I don't exactly feel things are under control knowing that the AFL is currently under the control of a "war cabinet" comprising four AFL commissioners and four club presidents, including Jeff Kennett and Eddie Everywhere.     Since when do those two have "executive powers" ?  I couldn't think of two blokes with more vested interest than those two.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 17, 2020, 09:23:14 pm
18 months minimum was quoted today during the news story about the research work at the Peter Doherty Institute

Yes, I read the same figure - 18 months.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 17, 2020, 09:38:15 pm
I think this is worth posting here....from FB....
Quote
Lockdown day # 476. 😑🇮🇹

Not really its like Day 9 I think? 🤔

Tip for my Aussie friends, because I love you all so much and it is killing me a little inside seeing some of you all panicking and fighting each other over toilet paper.

Even IF Australia gets a lockdown... Supermarkets & chemists stay open. 👌
Here is what it looks like....

One person from each family can go in.
People line up outside at a safe distance from each other.
A certain amount of people go in at a time.
You don't touch your face while you are there.
You go home, wash your hands, then chill at home.
The supermarkets are constantly re stocking and no one is hoarding because we know we don't need to. Maybe a LITTLE more than normal so you can do a weekly shop not a every second day shop.

So now we all know that.... and the fear of "what if" has been demolished for you... you can stop the insanity. It is harming your own mental state as well as literally harming those people who live pay to pay and find empty shelves. It is fear breeding fear, which isn't good for anyone or anything! Please stop it. If you are guilty of it? Well now you know you don't have to do it anymore my friend. Channel that fear fuelled energy somewhere else other than stampeding through the toilet paper aisle at Coles.

Please. 🤦‍♀️

Do some good home workouts, a punching bag sesh, do a massive clean out at home, declutter, bake a chocolate cake, watch a funny film or series, read a good book, connect with your family, call an old friend, and
stay C A L M.

Just mostly, lean into your concern for this pandemic with a due reverence for its severity and respond with a sense of faith, community, of loving your neighbour (from a distance😘) , of listening to medical experts, and just do what you gotta do.... which I can guarantee you has absoloutely nothing to do with a panic reaction of piling up TP in your garage. 👌

I understand the fear...this IS extremely worrying times but panic doesn't serve anything. 🙏

As we are saying here in Italy
# andrà tutto bene

*everything will be okay. 💗🙏🌈
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 17, 2020, 09:39:15 pm
I don't exactly feel things are under control knowing that the AFL is currently under the control of a "war cabinet" comprising four AFL commissioners and four club presidents, including Jeff Kennett and Eddie Everywhere.     Since when do those two have "executive powers" ?  I couldn't think of two blokes with more vested interest than those two.
If you heard Jeff speak on SEN in this morning, I reckon you would feel confident (I did). He said the group was made up of people with different and wide ranging skill sets. It is mean to be a small agile group to assist with decisions that need to be made and communicated very quickly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 17, 2020, 09:52:41 pm
I think this is worth posting here....from FB....

Those Italians. Such lovely, sensible people.  ;)

That post should be the centerpiece of a massive advertising campaign over the next few weeks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 18, 2020, 07:40:32 am
Ive been saying for weeks that they need to control who shops and when by either providing vouchers/numbers to be used on certain days or make people line up and limit who goes in and what you can take. Some sort of system needs to be put in place to allow people to get the essentials. If people want to behave like animals, they need to be hearded and treated as such. If nothing else, this has thus far definitely brought out the worst in people.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 18, 2020, 08:00:12 am
Ive been saying for weeks that they need to control who shops and when by either providing vouchers/numbers to be used on certain days or make people line up and limit who goes in and what you can take. Some sort of system needs to be put in place to allow people to get the essentials. If people want to behave like animals, they need to be herded and treated as such. If nothing else, this has thus far definitely brought out the worst in people.

It's a shame that people can't figure this out for themselves, but for the moment, these measures would be a good idea.

Another tick for "small government" and "market self correction."
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2020, 08:13:52 am
Why not apply some sort of 50% Retail Coronavirus tax on everything critical that being hoarded, let the supermarkets decide what gets the tax and what doesn't. Give pensioners and disability card holders a waiver on that tax. Make it illegal to collect / charge for the tax on resold retail goods. This means scalpers risk making a loss, because the minute the supermarkets have normal demand they can remove the tax. Give everybody the tax back for legit purchases at tax time.

Crooks won't be able to scalp goods as they aren't in a position to claim a tax rebate, and risk being caught with stuff they can only sell below cost.



Hypochondria is a far bigger problem than coronavirus, hypochondria and paranoia are the media's enabler!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on March 18, 2020, 08:34:48 am
Easy,  max of two items,  ten all up.

Haven't been able to shop for three weeks,  oldies stripped the supermarket before eight yesterday and today.

Dunno when we're going to get basics like meat,  flour,  TP etc.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 18, 2020, 09:45:41 am
Easy,  max of two items,  ten all up.

Haven't been able to shop for three weeks,  oldies stripped the supermarket before eight yesterday and today.

Dunno when we're going to get basics like meat,  flour,  TP etc.

Don't blame the oldies....our local didn't get a delivery and it was stripped before it even begun. Oldies got nothing
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 18, 2020, 09:53:10 am
There are some BS social media posts of so called lock downs being announced today or tomorrow. They are BS, the PM and Chief Medical Officer are on TV stating listen to government advice (official) not rubbish on twitter, FB, media news etc.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 18, 2020, 10:20:23 am
Just did some maths.

In Australia....
450 cases
24.6million people

0.002% of the population have it right now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 18, 2020, 10:24:58 am

There are some BS social media posts of so called lock downs being announced today or tomorrow. They are BS, the PM and Chief Medical Officer are on TV stating listen to government advice (official) not rubbish on twitter, FB, media news etc.


Lockdowns are inevitable. They are being discussed, don't believe a word Hillsong Scott is saying. Schools will have an extended term break.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2020, 10:28:56 am
Lockdowns are inevitable. They are being discussed, don't believe a word Hillsong Scott is saying. Schools will have an extended term break.
Many schools are already on extended breaks, some smart-ar5e types joking about having unplanned holidays, they won't think it's funny when they realise they are not necessarily going to be paid.

Be careful what you wish for people!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 18, 2020, 10:39:09 am
Just did some maths.

In Australia....
450 cases
24.6million people

0.002% of the population have it right now.

Italy Death toll:

3 March: 79
18 March: 2500
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 18, 2020, 10:39:22 am
Lockdowns are inevitable. They are being discussed, don't believe a word Hillsong Scott is saying. Schools will have an extended term break.

My boss told me yesterday that his daughters school is off from this Friday for at least a week (school holidays may start from that week, not sure).

Now that may be an isolated case...but to say its not happening is just plain wrong from Scotty from marketing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 18, 2020, 11:17:19 am
Lockdowns are inevitable. They are being discussed, don't believe a word Hillsong Scott is saying. Schools will have an extended term break.
Perhaps, point is it wont be announced today. Today based on information, no lockdowns or school closures. Off course its being discussed, dont believe twitter FB. The Prime Minister, Chief Health Officer and Premiers are who to listen to. My daughter received a text from her boss saying nation wide lockdown would be announced today based on cabinet meetings. Extremely disappointing in my book. Experts everywhere!!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 18, 2020, 11:19:16 am
My boss told me yesterday that his daughters school is off from this Friday for at least a week (school holidays may start from that week, not sure).

Now that may be an isolated case...but to say its not happening is just plain wrong from Scotty from marketing.
Scotty also said its not to say that individual cases aren't occurring. If outbreaks occur in communities, measures will need to be taken.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2020, 11:20:41 am
Is there any correlation between aging populations with a high proportion of smokers and COVID-19 fatality rates?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 18, 2020, 11:23:18 am
Italy Death toll:

3 March: 79
18 March: 2500
Italy
31,500 cases
60.5M population
0.052%
26 times our rate.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 18, 2020, 11:29:58 am
Is there any correlation between aging populations with a high proportion of smokers and COVID-19 fatality rates?

It's like the difference between a quick stir fry (COVID-19) and a slow roast (smoking).  If you provide the fuel and have a match at the ready..............

If you've been a smoker for several decades, one could reasonably argue the the Corona virus would be neither here nor there. But I don't know the answer to your question. Smoking would be one of several factors that make the elderly a high risk group with most things.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 18, 2020, 11:36:52 am
Perhaps, point is it wont be announced today. Today based on information, no lockdowns or school closures. Off course its being discussed, dont believe twitter FB. The Prime Minister, Chief Health Officer and Premiers are who to listen to. My daughter received a text from her boss saying nation wide lockdown would be announced today based on cabinet meetings. Extremely disappointing in my book. Experts everywhere!!!

On Monday 500 people gatherings banned.
Today it's 100.

Most of my friends are working from home.
Schools are being told get ready.

How can the PM stand there and say it's rubbish? And come out eith crap like It's only the elderly at risk like they don't matter?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 18, 2020, 11:41:39 am
On Monday 500 people gatherings banned.
Today it's 100.

Most of my friends are working from home.
Schools are being told get ready.

How can the PM stand there and say it's rubbish? And come out eith crap like It's only the elderly at risk like they don't matter?


When did he say it was rubbish?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 18, 2020, 12:30:29 pm
On Monday 500 people gatherings banned.
Today it's 100.

Most of my friends are working from home.
Schools are being told get ready.

How can the PM stand there and say it's rubbish? And come out eith crap like It's only the elderly at risk like they don't matter?



We are following the Singapore model with schools who have kept them open, however that country applied harsh restrictions as soon as China revealed their crisis and thats the difference we have bumbled along instead of going the harsh lockdowns, Singapore learned from the SAR's virus and we are playing catchup...its crazy, we need to lockdown for a month.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 18, 2020, 12:42:17 pm
We are following the Singapore model with schools who have kept them open, however that country applied harsh restrictions as soon as China revealed their crisis and thats the difference we have bumbled along instead of going the harsh lockdowns, Singapore learned from the SAR's virus and we are playing catchup...its crazy, we need to lockdown for a month.
The experts say we dont yet
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 18, 2020, 12:44:03 pm
Is there any correlation between aging populations with a high proportion of smokers and COVID-19 fatality rates?

Good question and I watched a presentation from an Italian Dr who drew that exact correlation (referring to Italy). Most at risk are... aged with an underlying illness, especially lung issues (cancer, COPD, emphysema), diabetes, obesity and hypertension chief among the high risk folks (much like a bad flu!!!).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 18, 2020, 12:45:38 pm
When did he say it was rubbish?


Our prime minister
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2020, 12:51:56 pm
Good question and I watched a presentation from an Italian Dr who drew that exact correlation (referring to Italy). Most at risk are... aged with an underlying illness, especially lung issues (cancer, COPD, emphysema), diabetes, obesity and hypertension chief among the high risk folks (much like a bad flu!!!).
I bet you find Wuhan is much the same, heavy smokers are still endemic in China particularly the elderly, and they smoke cheap chopchop cigarettes without filters.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 18, 2020, 12:56:00 pm
Our prime minister
When not who.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2020, 12:56:56 pm
Our prime minister
 Our PM says Stop It, or he'll say Stop It again!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 18, 2020, 01:10:48 pm
When not who.

This morning.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 18, 2020, 01:16:59 pm
Is there any correlation between aging populations with a high proportion of smokers and COVID-19 fatality rates?

IMO that's a definite yes LP.  Compromised immune systems already and smoking rates are very high in Italy.  Iran and France somewhat the same.  Asthma and diabetes even worse.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 18, 2020, 01:17:44 pm
My brothers wedding on Saturday has just been thrown into turmoil.

He's left with the (most likely) strange problem of having to call guests and tell them they are no longer invited. This is so he can get the number to (under) 100. This would probably have to include the staff members too.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 18, 2020, 01:23:15 pm
This morning.
What exactly did he say? I watched all of  it and don't recall him using that word. In fact, he said there will be cases where some people (ie like the NAB yesterday) will need to work from home and that schools where someone tested positive would need to close.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 18, 2020, 01:39:46 pm
What exactly did he say? I watched all of  it and don't recall him using that word. In fact, he said there will be cases where some people (ie like the NAB yesterday) will need to work from home and that schools where someone tested positive would need to close.

I can't recall his exact wording but he used strong language, I'm pretty sure he said don't believe the stuff you read online about lockdowns as it's rubbish and that they haven't spoke about lockdowns. It was towards the end of the conference and after crapping on about the schools not needing to close because Singapore didn't close theirs.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 18, 2020, 01:41:54 pm
https://twitter.com/JohnRMoffitt/status/1239732902356754433
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 18, 2020, 01:56:34 pm
I can't recall his exact wording but he used strong language, I'm pretty sure he said don't believe the stuff you read online about lockdowns as it's rubbish and that they haven't spoke about lockdowns. It was towards the end of the conference and after crapping on about the schools not needing to close because Singapore didn't close theirs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=vousU56PVws

Ahaa, yes right at the end, he said dont listen to crap online, listen to OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT ADVICE. I thought he was excellent and so was Brendan Murphy. I cant find part 2, Brendan Murphy spoke and addressed questions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 18, 2020, 02:20:00 pm
I think there's a fine line between panicking and being proactive / preventive, and it's a hard one to get right sometimes. Neither he nor any government official has ruled out lockdown. However, I think LP's statement that his leadership / management style (i.e do nothing and then you can't be accused of making a bad decision), is innately correct. Sometimes, today's "wait and see" is tomorrow's pandemic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2020, 03:26:08 pm
This is doing the rounds, it's being posted in relation to Boris but it's relevant.

https://youtu.be/HSD1d-6P6qI?t=11
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2020, 03:28:53 pm
In terms of "Scotty from Marketing" leaving the match day call up to the AFL, and other peak sporting bodies.

I admit I'm cynical, as you might assume from me posting the above video, but I'd suggest there is a fair bit of risk assessment for avoiding any potential liability going on built directly into his decision making chain.

The politicians really are pussy whipped, politically correct and piss-weak on so many issues. A virus doesn't care if your Chinese, India, African or Euro trash, being male, female or any of an unlimited by LGBTIAO won't help you either. Anarchists, Agnostics and Religious Fundamentalists will fall at equal rates alongside the very poor and the very wealthy.

But importantly whatever we do we must not offend anyone, and be sure to pray!

(https://www.scotsman.com/images-e.jpimedia.uk/imagefetch/http://www.scotsman.com/webimage/Prestige.Item.1.60323964!image/image.jpg?width=640)(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gi0AZdozBP0/SWuySWdAujI/AAAAAAAAADI/Kfl4L9yQ8aA/s320/humph.jpg)
I'm afraid this situation needed more of Malcom Tucker(The Thick of It) and far less Sir Humphrey Appleby(Yes Minister)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 19, 2020, 06:44:16 am
https://www.theage.com.au/national/how-are-countries-flattening-the-curve-of-coronavirus-20200317-p54b3g.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 19, 2020, 07:14:49 am
https://soperth.com.au/joe-rogan-michael-osterholm-if-theres-one-video-you-watch-about-coronavirus-37422

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 19, 2020, 07:52:59 am
I heard the only logically sounding argument as to why schools should stay OPEN.

If they close, who has to look after them?
1. Parents
2. Grandparents

Now if it is grandparents, they are in the high risk category. It could increase the number of deaths seen as a result.
Now if it is parents, that supposedly means that 30% of the healthcare system has to stay home (Nurses doctors etc) to look after those kids. The system is already bulging and limiting the resources could break it. Less staff means longer waits and potentially more deaths.

So in short, teachers and kids are 'taking one for the team' it appears.

For the record, kids DO catch the virus and will spread it despite early reports suggesting otherwise.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 19, 2020, 08:16:45 am
So in short, teachers and kids are 'taking one for the team' it appears.

For the record, kids DO catch the virus and will spread it despite early reports suggesting otherwise.
There have never been official reports saying kids don't get it, so it's a good idea not to slag off the officials with media innuendo, you know how to discuss this appropriately and debug that rubbish. It's like the media repeating the rubbish about NSAIDs and COVID-19, disgraceful media behaviour based on an outright fear-mongering lie that was a distortion of a simple warning that "for all people NSAIDSs carry more risk than paracetamol" having COVID-19 makes little difference.

Even worse is the media loosely associating the number of cases with the number of deaths, as each week passes the death rate reduces approaching that of Influenza.

If you want to be critical, think about this. Some experts are shouting from the rooftops that 14 million people in Australia will get COVID-19, but Wuhan where this all started has more people than all of Australia and is a fraction of the size, Wuhan's metro population of 19 million is the equivalent of packing every Australian into just 1/4 of Tasmania. Yet based on the current trajectories Wuhan won't get anywhere near 14 million cases.

Of course we know that kids get COVID-19 too, but they might show little or no symptoms as do many adults who get nothing more than a mild cold or sore throat. Primarily it seems if you have been lucky enough to get the right type of Flu, Cold or Immunisation previously, you could already have partial immunity to COVID-19. Subjectively, the elderly and some First Nation type societies are at greater risk, but the data is immature as the investigation is still under way.

Already there is a strong association appearing to smokers and COVID-19 susceptibility, it may be no accident that elderly Chinese and Italians who live in high density housing and are frequently life long chain smokers might be coping the brunt of this virus. People who already have reduced lung capacity and lose more of what they have left when they get COVID-19. Another one for the tobacco industry to take credit for!

Give up the smokes, everyday you clock up smoke free might make the difference!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 19, 2020, 08:33:09 am
.......................
Give up the smokes, everyday you clock up smoke free might make the difference!

And the donuts. That link posted by MBB (good stuff matey), states that different countries have different risk factors. In China, old blokes smoke a lot, and in the US (and by extension Australia) obesity is a major risk factor.

I'm still only part way through watching that video.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 19, 2020, 08:43:22 am
I heard the only logically sounding argument as to why schools should stay OPEN.

If they close, who has to look after them?
1. Parents
2. Grandparents

Now if it is grandparents, they are in the high risk category. It could increase the number of deaths seen as a result.
Now if it is parents, that supposedly means that 30% of the healthcare system has to stay home (Nurses doctors etc) to look after those kids. The system is already bulging and limiting the resources could break it. Less staff means longer waits and potentially more deaths.

So in short, teachers and kids are 'taking one for the team' it appears.

For the record, kids DO catch the virus and will spread it despite early reports suggesting otherwise.
Watch the video in MBB's link
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 19, 2020, 10:47:26 am
Watch the video in MBB's link

For any specific points? It is 90 minutes long
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 19, 2020, 10:51:24 am
My kids' school closed today after a positive test yesterday. A teacher I gather.

UK will shut all school as of tomorrow - we should do the same.

I blame Dan for allowing all the GP crew and supporters in without any quarantine!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 19, 2020, 10:52:47 am
There have never been official reports saying kids don't get it, so it's a good idea not to slag off the officials with media innuendo, you know how to discuss this appropriately and debug that rubbish. It's like the media repeating the rubbish about NSAIDs and COVID-19, disgraceful media behaviour based on an outright fear-mongering lie that was a distortion of a simple warning that "for all people NSAIDSs carry more risk than paracetamol" having COVID-19 makes little difference.

Even worse is the media loosely associating the number of cases with the number of deaths, as each week passes the death rate reduces approaching that of Influenza.

If you want to be critical, think about this. Some experts are shouting from the rooftops that 14 million people in Australia will get COVID-19, but Wuhan where this all started has more people than all of Australia and is a fraction of the size, Wuhan's metro population of 19 million is the equivalent of packing every Australian into just 1/4 of Tasmania. Yet based on the current trajectories Wuhan won't get anywhere near 14 million cases.

Of course we know that kids get COVID-19 too, but they might show little or no symptoms as do many adults who get nothing more than a mild cold or sore throat. Primarily it seems if you have been lucky enough to get the right type of Flu, Cold or Immunisation previously, you could already have partial immunity to COVID-19. Subjectively, the elderly and some First Nation type societies are at greater risk, but the data is immature as the investigation is still under way.

Already there is a strong association appearing to smokers and COVID-19 susceptibility, it may be no accident that elderly Chinese and Italians who live in high density housing and are frequently life long chain smokers might be coping the brunt of this virus. People who already have reduced lung capacity and lose more of what they have left when they get COVID-19. Another one for the tobacco industry to take credit for!

Give up the smokes, everyday you clock up smoke free might make the difference!

Northern Italy got screwed because it is Italy's manufacturing base - and guess where the majority of their workers are sourced from these days?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 19, 2020, 10:53:15 am
My kids' school closed today after a positive test yesterday. A teacher I gather.

UK will shut all school as of tomorrow - we should do the same.

I blame Dan for allowing all the GP crew and supporters in without any quarantine!
That was a huge f-up
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 19, 2020, 11:19:15 am
That was a huge f-up

I live in Middle Park - there were countless numbers of GP fans roaming the streets and pubs over the last week.

Not blaming then but they simply should not have been allowed into the country.

Good to see that big business greases the pockets of Labor just as much as their counterparts!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 19, 2020, 11:22:50 am
UK will shut all school as of tomorrow - we should do the same.
Not 100% correct, they are limiting UK school numbers by effectively turning them into daycare centers for the children of Essential Services workers.

Doctors, Nurses, Police, Ambulance, Fire Brigade, Food, etc., etc.. if you're a lawyer or a politician you need to find somewhere else to send your kid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 19, 2020, 11:25:14 am
I live in Middle Park - there were countless numbers of GP fans roaming the streets and pubs over the last week.

Not blaming then but they simply should not have been allowed into the country.

Good to see that big business greases the pockets of Labor just as much as their counterparts!
Dunno whether it was big business greasing, misinformation, sheer stupidity or all of the above. Given the fact that ALL our cases are "imported", why the fark would you let anyone in from the high risk areas like Europe? If its one thing I'll agree the gov have cocked up and that's not closing the borders (airports and ports) quicker.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 19, 2020, 11:26:17 am
Northern Italy got screwed because it is Italy's manufacturing base - and guess where the majority of their workers are sourced from these days?
Who is susceptible and what might be the cause are two very different things.

There were probably hundreds or thousands of business people, locals, travelling back and forth between Wuhan Province and local regions over the last few months. Including many business people travelling out of Wuhan and back. The workers who come and stay for weeks or months on end are not the problem, the highly mobile managers and executives who travel back and forth multiple times in that period are far more likely to be carriers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 19, 2020, 12:02:31 pm
For any specific points? It is 90 minutes long

Here's a shorter version but if you get a spare 90 minutes it's worth a listen to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZFhjMQrVts
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 19, 2020, 12:10:04 pm
Who is susceptible and what might be the cause are two very different things.

There were probably hundreds or thousands of business people, locals, travelling back and forth between Wuhan Province and local regions over the last few months. Including many business people travelling out of Wuhan and back. The workers who come and stay for weeks or months on end are not the problem, the highly mobile managers and executives who travel back and forth multiple times in that period are far more likely to be carriers.

No crap Sherlock!  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 19, 2020, 12:21:10 pm
Here's a shorter version but if you get a spare 90 minutes it's worth a listen to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZFhjMQrVts
I literally just finished watching the 90 minute version. lol

Still don't understand why i was told to watch it. Seems like what i was saying and what my understanding of the situation is.

Perhaps that doesn't come across on here very well?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 19, 2020, 12:30:13 pm
I literally just finished watching the 90 minute version. lol

Still don't understand why i was told to watch it. Seems like what i was saying and what my understanding of the situation is.

Perhaps that doesn't come across on here very well?

I watched it days ago. I only put it up to inform everyone here about what's coming because our prime minister wants people to believe his government are the experts and not to believe crap online.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 19, 2020, 01:58:49 pm
No crap Sherlock!  ::)
So why would you single out the low cost labor, is it an elitist thing?

Anyway, last time I was in Northern Italy most of the low cost labor came out of the old Soviet Block states or North Africa, not China or SE Asia. I'd say the bulk of the unskilled factory labor, also hotel maintenance and wait staff, were African.

I realise it's been a couple of years since I've been there, but I'm sure things haven't changed that quickly on the larger scale.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy#Modern_Italy_and_immigration
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 19, 2020, 02:04:44 pm
I watched it days ago. I only put it up to inform everyone here about what's coming because our prime minister wants people to believe his government are the experts and not to believe crap online.
His reference to believing stuff online was directed at bogus claims circulating saying that a lockdown would be announced today (I got an audio mss saying it, my daughter got a text from her boss). They said listen to official instructions re: lockdowns, school closures, etc not twitter feeds or whatsapp messages.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 19, 2020, 02:39:27 pm
His reference to believing stuff online was directed at bogus claims circulating saying that a lockdown would be announced today (I got an audio mss saying it, my daughter got a text from her boss). They said listen to official instructions re: lockdowns, school closures, etc not twitter feeds or whatsapp messages.

Yes, I think sometimes we all economize with our choice of words, and for convenience we pick an easy phrase that catches more than it should. I doubt Slomo is telling us not to listen to the Michael Osterholms of this world. That said, his response is still way too slow IMO, and fully in keeping with his general MO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on March 19, 2020, 04:12:05 pm
Yes, I think sometimes we all economize with our choice of words, and for convenience we pick an easy phrase that catches more than it should. I doubt Slomo is telling us not to listen to the Michael Osterholms of this world. That said, his response is still way too slow IMO, and fully in keeping with his general MO.

He's being reactive rather than proactive and with an incubation period of around 14 days he's always behind the 8 ball. He's been doing this from the start and sadly he and the chief medical officer aren't learning.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 19, 2020, 04:16:47 pm
Median incubation period is 5 days, not 14 days. Having said that, the testing takes anywhere from 5-15 days to get results, so the numbers of cases being bandied around is what was happening a week or so ago, not what is happening today
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 19, 2020, 04:23:15 pm
He's being reactive rather than proactive and with an incubation period of around 14 days he's always behind the 8 ball. He's been doing this from the start and sadly he and the chief medical officer aren't learning.

Yes, that sounds fair enough. I was hoping he would hit at least 1 home run, just like Howard did with the gun legislation early in his first term. That way I wouldn't be accused of blatant, consistent anti-Liberal bias.  ;)

Sadly, no such luck.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on March 19, 2020, 04:38:44 pm
Yes, that sounds fair enough. I was hoping he would hit at least 1 home run, just like Howard did with the gun legislation early in his first term. That way I wouldn't be accused of blatant, consistent anti-Liberal bias.  ;)

Sadly, no such luck.

Nice of us to start off the new season on the same page Paul.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 19, 2020, 04:39:38 pm
China has reported no new infection cases today for the first time, wonder how they got to this stage and with their massive population?
A.Full lockdown is what got them to this level of control, we need to be doing same...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 19, 2020, 04:51:50 pm
He just can't take a trick at the moment and this problem is moving apace.  No other PM in my memory has encountered a challenge such as this.  He's doing OK IMO.  Only guy I think would have matched / bettered him was Hawke
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 19, 2020, 05:04:42 pm
Nice of us to start off the new season on the same page Paul.

Yes, but will it last ?  ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on March 19, 2020, 05:06:05 pm
Yes, but will it last ?  ;D

LOL
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 19, 2020, 05:30:56 pm
China has reported no new infection cases today for the first time, wonder how they got to this stage and with their massive population?
A.Full lockdown is what got them to this level of control, we need to be doing same...

Be careful what you believe from them.

According to them no kids got the virus (at least early days) and the reports coming out of there have been suspect at best.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 19, 2020, 05:33:31 pm
Be careful what you believe from them.

According to them no kids got the virus (at least early days) and the reports coming out of there have been suspect at best.
It wasn't China overall, it was just Wuhan. And I agree, take everything from China with a grain of salt
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 19, 2020, 07:16:06 pm
North Korea have zero cases.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 19, 2020, 07:22:01 pm
LOL
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 19, 2020, 07:49:23 pm
Yes MBB ... they have already been told to self report.  No-one has showed up yet
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Tragic on March 20, 2020, 09:33:00 am
Yes MBB ... they have already been told to self report.  No-one has showed up yet

cure in form of small lead object
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 20, 2020, 10:11:35 am
Just an FYI guys.

I have taken a more inactive stance of late.  A bit of intolerance of each others opinion fuelling it and simply put, Id much rather keep my sanity than involve myself in some pi55ing contest online that means nought in the greater scheme of things.

Word coming through from work (at a Victorian Hospital), is that the really difficult time for Coronavirus will begin shortly (based on data analytics used to look at number of patients presenting and screening) and that they are forecasting that our ICU beds will reach capacity around the 7th of April.

I thought it my duty to give everyone a little bit of a heads up to remain safe, and err on the side of caution.

The numbers are showing that they are starting to trend upwards at a pretty quick rate (doubling in terms of number of presentations) since the 7th of March, n
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 20, 2020, 11:48:57 am
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/younger-adults-are-a-large-percentage-of-coronavirus-hospitalisations-in-us-europe-data-shows-20200320-p54c0o.html

Not just the oldies apparently.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 20, 2020, 12:00:48 pm
Just an FYI guys.

I have taken a more inactive stance of late.  A bit of intolerance of each others opinion fuelling it and simply put, Id much rather keep my sanity than involve myself in some pi55ing contest online that means nought in the greater scheme of things.

Word coming through from work (at a Victorian Hospital), is that the really difficult time for Coronavirus will begin shortly (based on data analytics used to look at number of patients presenting and screening) and that they are forecasting that our ICU beds will reach capacity around the 7th of April.

I thought it my duty to give everyone a little bit of a heads up to remain safe, and err on the side of caution.

The numbers are showing that they are starting to trend upwards at a pretty quick rate (doubling in terms of number of presentations) since the 7th of March, n

Thanks for the heads up.

I did notice you were quiet lately.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 20, 2020, 12:26:29 pm
Just an FYI guys.

I have taken a more inactive stance of late.  A bit of intolerance of each others opinion fuelling it and simply put, Id much rather keep my sanity than involve myself in some pi55ing contest online that means nought in the greater scheme of things.
No doubt it's a serious situation, we need to do everything we can to make your life and the life of others at the front line easier. Even more so in the knowledge that this years Infuenza season will be coincident to COVID-19 and from all Northern Hemisphere reports one of the worst on record.

That includes;
 - Following basic hygiene procedures, it's no guaranteed to stop someone getting an infection but it will certainly slow the spread.
 - Do not panic buy goods, food, drugs, or whatever, leaving the most even more vulnerable.
 - Do not make hysterical and paranoid decisions.
 - Do not roll up to hospitals for a runny nose or itchy wrinkle, neither mean you have COVID-19 or Influenza.
 - Care for and take notice of people around you.
 - Self-isolate if you are sick, do not ignore or flout the Self-isolation rules.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 20, 2020, 12:30:58 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/younger-adults-are-a-large-percentage-of-coronavirus-hospitalisations-in-us-europe-data-shows-20200320-p54c0o.html

Not just the oldies apparently.
Everybody can get it, no serious scientific or medical commentator ever made the claims that kids and young people can't get it or that they are immune, it's bogus to make such claims.

It's ironic that the media are now contradicting the stories they published saying youngies were immune just a week ago. Like today the media is contradicting the Paracetamol vs NSAID and COVID-19 will kill you stories of yesterday, after they caused a panic!

 If you are in a vulnerable category your age is irrelevant, you are vulnerable, even some healthy people will be vulnerable in the same way healthy people can be killed by a peanut.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 20, 2020, 12:34:54 pm
Yep, all good points LP. There's no guarantees in any aspect of life, but giving yourself the best chance of living healthy and getting through this starts well before this or any other virus. It's amazing how basic it all is, and it's amazing how so few people actually do it -good diet, regular exercise, good sleep, keep stress to a minimum. The last one is tricky and certainly not easy, but there's no excuse for not doing the first three.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 20, 2020, 12:41:00 pm
Yep, all good points LP. There's no guarantees in any aspect of life, but giving yourself the best chance of living healthy and getting through this starts well before this or any other virus. It's amazing how basic it all is, and it's amazing how so few people actually do it -good diet, regular exercise, good sleep, keep stress to a minimum. The last one is tricky and certainly not easy, but there's no excuse for not doing the first three.
Around the area I work all the hospitals are asking their staff to participate in gentle fitness sessions, they are basically being taken for power-walks under the guidance of trainers to de-stress and get some fresh air. The fitness benefit would seem low, but the mental health benefit must be immeasurable.

The mental health issues are severe. This morning I noticed a receptionist running outside to cough, not because she has any real symptoms, but because she feels so socially pressured by the situation and the way people are reacting. It's unhealthy and a direct result of the hysteria.

I thought a huge tell on the hoarding was that the most severe hoarding is coming from the cheap shops, Coles / Woolies / Aldi, etc., etc.. Apparently the NQR near our home was lucky to be left with the shelving! My local area Woolies is gutted like a fish, but the IGA, butcher, greengrocer and fancy Provedore can't sell a crumb! The Provedore is over-loaded in loose pasta that you can buy by the scoop and nobody wants it, not because they are scared of the scoop, but because it costs twice as much. That shows you how little the hoarders need what they are hoarding!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 20, 2020, 01:10:02 pm
The mental health issues are severe. This morning I noticed a receptionist running outside to cough, not because she has any real symptoms, but because she feels so socially pressured by the situation and the way people are reacting. It's unhealthy and a direct result of the hysteria.

Speaking of all this social pressure...
My youngest had a sniffle the other day, so i had to stay home from work because if i sent him in, i'd get a call to come get him because he might have Corona.

That night i started getting a sore throat, by morning i had it in the ears as well. So i told the boss that i wouldn't be coming in.
Same thing for today....he said just stay home until i'm better.

If it wasn't for all this panic, i would've gone into work and not even mentioned it.

Now, tomorrow is my brothers wedding. He has had to ring guests and tell him they are no longer allowed to come because the number of people has to be under 100....including staff. That is such a sucky thing to have to do.
If i turn up and people find out i'm sick, then there will be plenty of disapproving looks.
If i don't turn up, i'll forever hear about it...not from my brother, but the extended family.

Social pressure is making me want to miss my brothers wedding!

How would you guys feel if you were in my position?
How would you guys feel if you were another guest at the wedding?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 20, 2020, 01:14:36 pm
Interesting reading LP. It's a massive problem that as a planet, we are now fatter than ever, and that as a country, we are the fattest of the fat. If I ran the show, there would definitely be health assessments for all workers, and mandatory fitness sessions every working day. The benefits are immeasurable, not just to the individual, but to the country as a whole.

And yes, the hoarding is totally unnecessary.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 20, 2020, 01:26:17 pm
Speaking of all this social pressure...
My youngest had a sniffle the other day, so i had to stay home from work because if i sent him in, i'd get a call to come get him because he might have Corona.

That night i started getting a sore throat, by morning i had it in the ears as well. So i told the boss that i wouldn't be coming in.
Same thing for today....he said just stay home until i'm better.

If it wasn't for all this panic, i would've gone into work and not even mentioned it.

Now, tomorrow is my brothers wedding. He has had to ring guests and tell him they are no longer allowed to come because the number of people has to be under 100....including staff. That is such a sucky thing to have to do.
If i turn up and people find out i'm sick, then there will be plenty of disapproving looks.
If i don't turn up, i'll forever hear about it...not from my brother, but the extended family.

Social pressure is making me want to miss my brothers wedding!

How would you guys feel if you were in my position?
How would you guys feel if you were another guest at the wedding?

I would have cancelled the wedding, my son has got engaged and we were due a engagement party in 2 weeks......but they cancelled the event. Didnt want to pick and choose who comes or risk older attendees, my wifes stupid relo's in NSW are having a wedding function today and seem oblivious to the crisis, one is a nurse who organised the wedding..go figure.
My English relatives sent me pictures with them partying at the local pub this week, not a care in the world...

A lot of people we know have the sore throat, blocked/pressure sinus/ears, headaches etc and are just staying home to recover
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 20, 2020, 01:26:51 pm
Social pressure is making me want to miss my brothers wedding!

How would you guys feel if you were in my position?
How would you guys feel if you were another guest at the wedding?
Yes, it's a no win, sorry to hear you're stuck in that situation.

Perhaps the kindest thing is for the venue to cancel, then nobody gets the blame except and commercial entity. Unfair on everybody, but maybe the only human solution. A technicality if you will, not somebodies fault.

What value a wedding where the photos are full of people wearing masks, because you know there will be some there wearing a mask, and there is a risk that won't be a happy memory but a memorial!

By the end of the Flu season, a lot of this will be sorted out, but that's August / Sept.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 20, 2020, 01:35:51 pm
Today a local business near my work folded, not because they weren't doing enough trade, but because some employees came back from an OS holiday and went straight to work refusing to self-isolate. The word got out, leaked by another employee who wasn't happy about having to share a space, and the business basically went bust overnight for not forcing returning staff to self-isolate.

 Maybe the managers just had some pity, the wrong pity because it has cost them dearly, because the right pity is doing the right thing by the greater community, health and emergency services workers, not the individual employees.

btw., The whistle-blower was sacked, nobody in officialdom stood up for them, talk about sending mixed messages! Anyway now they said they would feel unwelcome there anyway, that is the social pressure at work again! Thank-you News Ltd!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Tragic on March 20, 2020, 01:43:51 pm
Speaking of all this social pressure...
My youngest had a sniffle the other day, so i had to stay home from work because if i sent him in, i'd get a call to come get him because he might have Corona.

That night i started getting a sore throat, by morning i had it in the ears as well. So i told the boss that i wouldn't be coming in.
Same thing for today....he said just stay home until i'm better.

If it wasn't for all this panic, i would've gone into work and not even mentioned it.

Now, tomorrow is my brothers wedding. He has had to ring guests and tell him they are no longer allowed to come because the number of people has to be under 100....including staff. That is such a sucky thing to have to do.
If i turn up and people find out i'm sick, then there will be plenty of disapproving looks.
If i don't turn up, i'll forever hear about it...not from my brother, but the extended family.

Social pressure is making me want to miss my brothers wedding!

How would you guys feel if you were in my position?
How would you guys feel if you were another guest at the wedding?

Depends how paranoid you are.  The number of cases with unknown sources is already climbing, so it's out in the general public already.  Asymptomatic transmission is almost certainly days before anyone knows they've got it.  If your brothers wedding was in 1-2 weeks time it would be outright cancelled.

I have the ability to work from home so am doing so, and took my kids out of school because I could do so.  I go out when I need to, and try to avoid busy times, and take precautions.  A mate I haven't seen for a few years was going to come down next weekend, and yesterday I said we'd cancel it for now.   I was particularly looking fwd to catching up with him too.  He thinks I'm mad.

My feeling on the whole thing - not everyone can do what I am able to do - but those who can - should.  The less people get sick at once the better the chances for those who do get sick and need hospital care.  It's the sudden rush of cases and overload on the health system that will do the most damage in terms of lives lost.

I hope I'm just being paranoid.

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 20, 2020, 01:45:35 pm
Tragic, they all sound like good, sensible precautions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 20, 2020, 01:48:46 pm
Just an FYI guys.

I have taken a more inactive stance of late.  A bit of intolerance of each others opinion fuelling it and simply put, Id much rather keep my sanity than involve myself in some pi55ing contest online that means nought in the greater scheme of things.

Word coming through from work (at a Victorian Hospital), is that the really difficult time for Coronavirus will begin shortly (based on data analytics used to look at number of patients presenting and screening) and that they are forecasting that our ICU beds will reach capacity around the 7th of April.

I thought it my duty to give everyone a little bit of a heads up to remain safe, and err on the side of caution.

The numbers are showing that they are starting to trend upwards at a pretty quick rate (doubling in terms of number of presentations) since the 7th of March, n

Thank you, 3 Leos. That's consistent with the info I'm getting as well. By the time the numbers of those requiring hospitalisation have peaked we should have most things in place. I guess we'll know soon enough if the info pointing to this being the 1st/2nd weeks of April is correct.

Sorry that you're not as active these days. Your contributions, though maybe not always agreed with, are always valued and good food for thought.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: sandsmere on March 20, 2020, 01:49:16 pm
Speaking of all this social pressure...
My youngest had a sniffle the other day, so i had to stay home from work because if i sent him in, i'd get a call to come get him because he might have Corona.

That night i started getting a sore throat, by morning i had it in the ears as well. So i told the boss that i wouldn't be coming in.
Same thing for today....he said just stay home until i'm better.

If it wasn't for all this panic, i would've gone into work and not even mentioned it.

Now, tomorrow is my brothers wedding. He has had to ring guests and tell him they are no longer allowed to come because the number of people has to be under 100....including staff. That is such a sucky thing to have to do.
If i turn up and people find out i'm sick, then there will be plenty of disapproving looks.
If i don't turn up, i'll forever hear about it...not from my brother, but the extended family.

Social pressure is making me want to miss my brothers wedding!

How would you guys feel if you were in my position?
How would you guys feel if you were another guest at the wedding?

Krud, You should go to hospital and have the test.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 20, 2020, 01:55:24 pm
Krud, You should go to hospital and have the test.
From what I hear they won't test you unless you are classified as high risk (recently returned from overseas or known direct contact with a confirmed case, and showing symptoms beyond a normal cold such as shortness of breath, high fever)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 20, 2020, 01:55:44 pm
Krud, You should go to hospital and have the test.

From what i read, it takes days to get the results. An option i looked at, but not going to help.

As for the venue should cancel....
Every other event that was held there has cancelled on them and they are very keen for it to go ahead because they want some money coming in. They think we are doing them a favour by continuing with it.

As for how paranoid i am? Not very.
I'd happily go through 'flu like symptons and risk of death' that the corona virus brings with it to go to the wedding.
But....
If i was to pass it on to a family member who was less fit and healthy and worst case scenario, caused/contributed to their death? How can i live with that?

Is it on those people to not attend??

Again, i don't think i have corona, but I can't be sure.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 20, 2020, 02:11:44 pm
From what I hear they won't test you unless you are classified as high risk (recently returned from overseas or known direct contact with a confirmed case, and showing symptoms beyond a normal cold such as shortness of breath, high fever)

or if you're a celebrity.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 20, 2020, 02:15:43 pm
From what i read, it takes days to get the results. An option i looked at, but not going to help.
This is 100% correct, 4 ~ 5 days is the median test lead-time. In most cases people are recovering before they get a test result. In that case the test only serves as an confirmation to self-isolate, something we should probably already do.

I'm not sure what the right answer is.

Dutton being released just a couple of days after diagnosis is a prime example of this and he would have been treated with a priority, if it's serious most people are likely to be unwell long before any test results arrive.

If you have to go into hospital they'll test you, if you don't they won't, if you don't need to go into hospital you should probably stay away from as according to WHO reports being in there puts you at greater risk of getting the virus. But this is of course based on all hospitals globally which means widely varying standards of management and response.

Stay safe, be vigilant of your health, and conscious about the health of those around you.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 20, 2020, 02:19:58 pm
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/play-rust/images/3/36/Hazmat_Suit_icon.png/revision/latest?cb=20180411211629)

I'm going to a wedding soon - do you like the new suit I've chosen?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 20, 2020, 02:21:22 pm
I'm going to a wedding soon - do you like the new suit I've chosen?
Too soon? :o

Laughter is the best medicine, as long as it's not from a Traditional Chinese Medicine store, which ironically might well be how all this started!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 20, 2020, 03:17:45 pm
They are turning the test around quicker now 4-8 hrs, I know someone in hospital now with atypical pneumonia but they are testing for covid19 as precaution.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 20, 2020, 03:29:04 pm
I have just returned from the pet shop.  They were out of turkey necks and meat sales were limited to two 2kg bags.  The hounds might have to catch their own food if this persists.

To make matters worse, the Friday Review on the wireless was interrupted by yet another long-winded speech by Scotty from marketing.  Far cough Scotty and leave it to the experts  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: sandsmere on March 22, 2020, 04:08:35 pm
Just heard that NSW and Victoria may be closing their borders next week.


Also WA is considering it too.

Nsw is closing all clubs and pubs plus a lot of other businesses.


no more AFL for a while I reckon.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 22, 2020, 04:12:32 pm
VIC are closing schools as of Tuesday. ScoMo will have the pressure put on him by the rest of the states now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: sandsmere on March 22, 2020, 04:25:03 pm
SA and WA have  now closed borders.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 22, 2020, 04:59:18 pm
Closed borders could mean no more footy for a while 😷
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 22, 2020, 05:01:46 pm
Gloch just announced season 2020 postponed until May 31 (at least!)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 22, 2020, 08:41:45 pm
Some interesting numbers....

https://www.zerohedge.com/health/covid-19-evidence-over-hysteria

MSM doing its thing again!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 22, 2020, 09:56:39 pm
Some interesting numbers....

https://www.zerohedge.com/health/covid-19-evidence-over-hysteria

MSM doing its thing again!

That’s the sort of claptrap analysis that encourages people to flaunt the precautions introduced in line with the recommendations of the chief health officers  >:(

It’s unclear who the author is (two names are given) and there’s no suggestion that they have any qualifications - relevant or otherwise.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 22, 2020, 10:04:47 pm
That’s the sort of claptrap analysis that encourages people to flaunt the precautions introduced in line with the recommendations of the chief health officers  >:(

It’s unclear who the author is (two names are given) and there’s no suggestion that they have any qualifications - relevant or otherwise.

Yes, was thinking much the same. It's best to listen to the Michael Osterholms of this world IMO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 23, 2020, 08:11:04 am
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/covid-19-evidence-over-hysteria

So much bad info and horrendous assumptions in the Ginn article, a clearer case of Dunning Kruger you won't find!

Ginn or whoever is ultimately responsible for feeding him such rubbish should head over to Northern Italy, we can use his visit as a test case and then use his potential demise to nominate him for a Darwin Award!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 23, 2020, 08:21:11 am

So much bad info and horrendous assumptions in the Ginn article, a clearer case of Dunning
Kruger you won't find!

Ginn or whoever is ultimately responsible for feeding him such rubbish should head over to Northern Italy, we can use his visit as a test case and then use his potential demise to nominate him for a Darwin Award!
Im not the greatest fan of 60 mins but last night, they had a story which showed a hospital in Cremona Italy. It was heartbreaking listening to the nurses and doctors speaking.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 23, 2020, 08:28:08 am
Im not the greatest fan of 60 mins but last night, they had a story which showed a hospital in Cremona Italy. It was heartbreaking listening to the nurses and doctors speaking.
Which is why the rest of us should be intolerant to those claiming COVID-19 is a hoax or beat up!

(btw. Another media disinformation/misinformation, COVID-19 is the disease caused by SARS-CoV-2 virus, COVID-19 is not the virus but the illness caused by it! The inversion of those two labels is a major reason some are getting facts wrong.)

I'm critical of the media for causing hysteria, because they aren't doing their job, much of what you see broadcast is pissweak downhill skiing that results in things like panic buying of poo tickets in a country that makes the stuff!

If you want to be a journalist, your job is to filter out the bullcrap, fact check and verify everything with recognised authorities on the subject at hand. Not to propagate rumours and cause panic!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 23, 2020, 09:18:41 am
If you listen to that video linked by mbb, Osterholm was saying that the hospitals in Italy have already reached the point where they have to decide who to save and who to let go. They simply cannot attend to all the cases.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 23, 2020, 10:58:07 am
I don't doubt for one second that COVID-19 is real and that people are dying from it. What I am worried about is how this pandemic may be used/hijacked as an opportunity to further other agendas and that these may be pursued through the MSM. Be very wary of what you may read and try to cross check against multiple trusted source imo. Trusted sources of course is a big question in itself......
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on March 23, 2020, 12:23:53 pm
I'd like to know who was responsible for letting the Ruby Princess disembark passengers,  a significant number of which were infected, who then scattered across the country.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 23, 2020, 12:51:11 pm
I'd like to know who was responsible for letting the Ruby Princess disembark passengers,  a significant number of which were infected, who then scattered across the country.
Thats a disaster and community breakdown, cruise ships are about as bad as it gets  with regards spreading illness, all those idiot backpackers and beach clowns who were at Bondi as well need a rocket as they have also spread the virus.
We should have had lockdowns earlier and the police/military enforcing areas like beaches, docks etc....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 23, 2020, 01:02:58 pm
Thats a disaster and community breakdown, cruise ships are about as bad as it gets  with regards spreading illness, all those idiot backpackers and beach clowns who were at Bondi as well need a rocket as they have also spread the virus.
We should have had lockdowns earlier and the police/military enforcing areas like beaches, docks etc....
Send the DH backpackers back to where the came from immediately
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 23, 2020, 01:04:40 pm
I don't doubt for one second that COVID-19 is real and that people are dying from it. What I am worried about is how this pandemic may be used/hijacked as an opportunity to further other agendas and that these may be pursued through the MSM. Be very wary of what you may read and try to cross check against multiple trusted source imo. Trusted sources of course is a big question in itself......
There is no doubt agendas are at play here, Dan Andrews (Labor) goes against Scomo (Liberal) on schools despite all the information from the health ministers and Chief Medical Officer of Australia. Tell me that aint political.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on March 23, 2020, 01:12:43 pm
Should have been march straight into isolation.

Must be difficult being the Premier of NSW... Seems to be state full of selfish F-heads.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on March 23, 2020, 01:27:53 pm

I'm critical of the media for causing hysteria, because they aren't doing their job, much of what you see broadcast is pissweak downhill skiing that results in things like panic buying of poo tickets in a country that makes the stuff!

If you want to be a journalist, your job is to filter out the bullcrap, fact check and verify everything with recognised authorities on the subject at hand. Not to propagate rumours and cause panic!

Easily the most agreeable post you’ve ever made.
Next step is to shut down the hoards of immunologists, virologists and other infectious disease experts that seem to have completed their phd’s recently and are spending all day on FB.

We need to give the experts clear air to get their message out.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 23, 2020, 02:05:15 pm
I only believe what I hear from WHO, CDC and FDA
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 23, 2020, 02:42:58 pm
I only believe what I hear from WHO, CDC and FDA

It pays to be critical of all sources, especially as they are funded by sovereign states or other political entities.

For example, the Spanish Flu occurred during the 1st World War killing millions, in retrospect it got labelled the Spanish Flu because Spain was the only country reporting the figures honestly. It now seems most likely the Spanish Flu actually started in the US or Americas and spread to other parts of the world, but the USA had an official policy of denial and enacted sedition laws to prevent media or public comment.

It's a bit like this SARS-CoV-2 not being labelled Wuhan China Virus, for political / social reasons.

Last year you will recall Europe reeling from the Aussie Flu, even though it appears to have originated elsewhere, but it was labelled Aussie Flu because Australia was the first to raise the warning! In retrospect it looks like it was a strain of H3N2 that surfaced in the Middle East.

SARS-CoV-2 which causes COVID-19 is a different situation, because there have been official warnings circulating about this strain since Nov 2019, and governments continued to built tunnels and freeways instead of hospitals.

Singapore and Hong Kong have been preparing for a repeat of SARS since 2003, there is a reason they are better situated to deal with this so far!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 23, 2020, 02:50:00 pm
Viruses don't have ethnicity.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 23, 2020, 02:55:22 pm
Viruses don't have ethnicity.
 
True, but humans have politics.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 23, 2020, 03:14:17 pm

True, but humans have politics.

Yes, and it should stay right out of any decision making on this issue. There's already subtle, casual racist overtones in the discourse on this issue.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 23, 2020, 03:36:34 pm
Not so subtle overtones from Trump...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 23, 2020, 03:46:39 pm
Yes, and it should stay right out of any decision making on this issue. There's already subtle, casual racist overtones in the discourse on this issue.
 
Overtones that have real world effects, the WHO knows all too well who funds it!

You don't get to the top in those jobs without politics.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 23, 2020, 03:53:46 pm
Not so subtle overtones from Trump...

Trump...........just sigh.  :'(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 23, 2020, 03:55:28 pm
Trump...........just sigh.  :'(
 
Did Trump just have a cold or was he really infected?

If he just had a cold, those sniffles he had last week really put the wind up him!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 23, 2020, 03:57:24 pm

Overtones that have real world effects, the WHO knows all too well who funds it!

You don't get the to the top in those jobs without politics.

Yes, fair points. But I don't think it does the WHO or their paymasters any good to be using potentially racist nomenclature for a virus. One hopes they have a skerrick of ethics, irrespective of "who" pays the bills. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 23, 2020, 04:01:04 pm
Yes, fair points. But I don't think it does the WHO or their paymasters any good to be using potentially racist nomenclature for a virus. One hopes they have a skerrick of ethics, irrespective of "who" pays the bills. 
 I wish I had your optimism, but then there is Trump and Putin!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 23, 2020, 05:01:19 pm
On a more serious note, what a great time to take out a Kayo subscription  ::)

Hopefully, I will get to watch some replays of classic sporting events ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 23, 2020, 05:29:37 pm
On a more serious note, what a great time to take out a Kayo subscription  ::)

Hopefully, I will get to watch some replays of classic sporting events ...

There is plenty of classic stuff put on kayo now.
AFL, F1....
Plenty of Kobe stuff after he died.

My uncle, a Cats member, said he got an email saying KAYO are offering members a discount ($2.5/m) via a code he got in an email. He was an existing member so was laughing.

Has anyone got similar? I certainly haven't.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 23, 2020, 05:34:31 pm
I wish I had your optimism, but then there is Trump and Putin!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NctiERzrny4&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1d5iCWD_5bAIMzlwJWqeUoKcXtxMbehkOvKzB9O3lVN1js3rstL73aIyk


more importantly:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/french-peer-reviewed-study-our-treatment-cured-100-of-coronavirus-patients
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 23, 2020, 05:35:18 pm
Viruses don't have ethnicity.
A bit off topic, but this reminded of something i once heard about chemical weapons.


Now i can't remember which way around it was but...
Apparently, they were trying to come up with a virus that only infected people who were in close contact with camels.
OR
A virus that did NOT infect people who were in close contact with camels.

No prizes for guessing why they would be useful when you are fighting a war in the middle east.

So, viruses do not....but chemical weapons potentially can....and people are trying too!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 23, 2020, 08:19:28 pm
On a more serious note, what a great time to take out a Kayo subscription  ::)

Hopefully, I will get to watch some replays of classic sporting events ...
The Kayo subscription I have allows you to start and stop at will without penalty.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 25, 2020, 01:45:37 pm
The new tests are promising to deliver results within an hour, but there will remain many questions. Because in practice it seems going to be tested itself might be the ultimate hazard, it's a significant conundrum because authorities need to identify the infected.

I drive past a major suburban hospital twice daily, on passing you can clearly see queues of people at the special entrance for COVID-19 testing, there are nursing staff dressed in hazard gear handing out disposable masks, taking temperatures, logging names, filling out questionnaires and generally doing their very best to assist people. They have hearts of gold, too gold for their own good.

But their work is complicated by regularly dispersed morons who have pulled the face masks down around their chin so they can have a smoke, some are behaving reprehensibly if the nurses try to stop them smoking! I realise the nurses are trained to deal with this, but why should they have to, use the army and police to enforce the queues while there are not that many queues to enforce, and let the nurses job will be much much easier. The nurses shouldn't have to put up with nutters making their already hazardous job worse. Sorry for using the term nutter I realize this can be emotive and insensitive, but it's an emotive issue.

Yesterday police had to arrest a clearly mentally ill individual getting in everybody's face at a local shopping center medical clinic, there is no indication that person was positive but keep this in mind as the state government releases a swathe of prisoners and mentally ill patients from restricted living. Especially in light of teenagers behaving badly in shopping centers, sooner or later something is going to go tragically wrong.

Now I'm not sure if this is true or not, but this feeds back into a rumor going around that a young girl returned from the USA on a flight several weeks back, was quarantined and tested as clear after two weeks quarantine, after another week or so for some reason she was re-tested and she was positive. It looks subjectively like when doing one of the original tests she accidentally exposed to the virus. Fortunately she is asymptomatic, but if her relatives or others fall ill the lawyers are going to have a field day and we will all suffer! This example issue is a major reason why some commercial entities are closing, not specifically related to direct risk but more about litigation and liability.

The net result of all this is surely a higher level of lock-down for a two or more week period, it probably should have been done already because earlier is better.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 25, 2020, 03:55:23 pm
Just because the world isn't being crapty enough lately

I had my ute broken into yesterday morning. $10k worth of tools gone.

Now i can't work until i replace them...or at least some of them.

Yay for society!  >:(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 25, 2020, 03:58:15 pm
Just because the world isn't being crapty enough lately

I had my ute broken into yesterday morning. $10k worth of tools gone.

Now i can't work until i replace them...or at least some of them.

Yay for society!  >:(
Sorry to hear that Kruds.

I'm afraid it's going to get worse before it gets better, a lot of the crims pegged to be released are petty crime types, blundering burglars or disaffected youth. ViPol is apparently furious, some of these crims will bring COVID-19 into your house or car through a broken window!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 25, 2020, 04:07:06 pm
How the world has turned, and so quickly, I don't like giving the Bolt's of this world any sustenance, but.........

A month or so back, we Aussies were the heartless, evil anti-humanitarian misanthropes. Just yesterday we were negligent in not providing enough support for her displaced ex-patriots.

Today she's called in the army and civil guard on her own people!

(https://sl.sbs.com.au/public/image/file/b60dee1f-0e4c-4319-bb95-288aeb9768e3/crop/16x9_medium)

She might well save their lives, but the feedback I have from my NZ associates is that she is cooked politically!

Which I find ironic because I think Scotty from Marketing has actually lifted his game!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 25, 2020, 04:26:37 pm
How the world has turned, and so quickly, I don't like giving the Bolt's of this world any sustenance, but.........

A month or so back, we Aussies were the heartless, evil anti-humanitarian misanthropes. Just yesterday we were negligent in not providing enough support for her displaced ex-patriots.

Today she's called in the army and civil guard on her own people!

(https://sl.sbs.com.au/public/image/file/b60dee1f-0e4c-4319-bb95-288aeb9768e3/crop/16x9_medium)

She might well save their lives, but the feedback I have from my NZ associates is that she is cooked politically!

Which I find ironic because I think Scotty from Marketing has actually lifted his game!

I cannot stand that bl00dy woman.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 25, 2020, 05:15:36 pm
How the world has turned, and so quickly, I don't like giving the Bolt's of this world any sustenance, but.........

A month or so back, we Aussies were the heartless, evil anti-humanitarian misanthropes. Just yesterday we were negligent in not providing enough support for her displaced ex-patriots.

Today she's called in the army and civil guard on her own people!

(https://sl.sbs.com.au/public/image/file/b60dee1f-0e4c-4319-bb95-288aeb9768e3/crop/16x9_medium)

She might well save their lives, but the feedback I have from my NZ associates is that she is cooked politically!

Which I find ironic because I think Scotty from Marketing has actually lifted his game!
Imbeciles like this have a limited shelf life. Cant stand the silly cow.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 25, 2020, 05:23:07 pm
I'd just like to say, Scomo and Murphy (IMO), together with their teams, have done a tremendous job in the most difficult time in Australian history. When making decisions for ALL Australians, they listen to the real experts on their team, not the imbeciles from the media, entertainment fraternity, sporting organisations and their people, the list goes on. Juggling health and safety and the economy is no mean feat. I am sick to death of the armchair experts everywhere and the DH's on the other side of the political fence trying to score points. Now is the not the time. Its simply, stay home unless youre getting essential items or performing an essential task.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 25, 2020, 05:47:49 pm
According to what I've read, Ardern has support from her party, the opposition, and the populace generally. The national state of emergency may seem harsh, but is about right IMO, given how serious this situation actually is. It's 4 weeks out of your life. They have no deaths and few infections, and she'd like to keep it that way, as she bloody well should.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 25, 2020, 05:53:18 pm
Just because the world isn't being crapty enough lately

I had my ute broken into yesterday morning. $10k worth of tools gone.

Now i can't work until i replace them...or at least some of them.

Yay for society!  >:(

Bloody hell, sorry to hear that, K. I hope insurance replaces stuff asap.

Was it at Coronet Bay? Crime is definitely up on the Island... much bigger police presence and only this morning someone decided to try and climb the fence into our property, only to be confronted by 40kgs of angry Doberman.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on March 25, 2020, 06:14:42 pm
When Ardern does it,  she's a compassionate saviour,  when an Australian does it,  they're an A-hole. Like their so called "green, pro-environment outlook" the hypocrisy is nauseating.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 25, 2020, 06:20:39 pm
When Ardern does it,  she's a compassionate saviour,  when an Australian does it,  they're an A-hole. .....................

There's nothing compassionate about a national state of emergency. It's a tough, no compromise measure for tough times. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 25, 2020, 06:23:06 pm
Just because the world isn't being crapty enough lately

I had my ute broken into yesterday morning. $10k worth of tools gone.

Now i can't work until i replace them...or at least some of them.

Yay for society!  >:(

Sorry to hear that and a sad reflection on the scumbag minority we have to live with in the community, on the brighter side they didnt get your toilet paper did they?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 25, 2020, 06:30:32 pm
There's nothing compassionate about a national state of emergency. It's a tough, no compromise measure for tough times. 

There's also a strong element of her craving whatever attention she can get.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 25, 2020, 06:47:52 pm
Bloody hell, sorry to hear that, K. I hope insurance replaces stuff asap.

Was it at Coronet Bay? Crime is definitely up on the Island... much bigger police presence and only this morning someone decided to try and climb the fence into our property, only to be confronted by 40kgs of angry Doberman.
Nah, northern suburbs.

I literally changed car insurance companies the day of the incident because i found out....
1. They were d!ckheads and would barely cover me when someone reversed into the side of my ute....while i was stationary!
2. They wouldn't cover me if something like that happened.

So best case scenario, i pay 800 and get 1000 back off them.
Not worth the hassle.

So i have to wear it.
First thing next day i inquired about tool insurance.....and cameras.  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 25, 2020, 06:49:33 pm
There's also a strong element of her craving whatever attention she can get.

Well, she is a politician, and publicity stunts fall well within their remit, but I personally think it's more unlikely than likely. And any supposed attention seeking on her part is completely dwarfed by other pollies, e.g the leader of the free world.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 26, 2020, 08:07:35 am
What has become patently clear is that there is a large number of modern day Typhoid Mary types, Covid Casey if you will, roaming around indignant to their contamination of the innocent, indifferent because of their own asymptomatic status to "a little cold."

They are not people ignorant of their COVID-19 status, they are people who have tested positive and deliberately ignored the request to isolate themselves from society. Of course some of the worst offenders are it seems the wealthy privileged, perhaps they are wealthy enough have ordered their own private ICU or ventilator.

They act deliberately, so officially charge them with Attempted Murder or Sedition, they harm both the public and the economy, if guilty throw away the key they no longer deserve to be part of humanity as they deliberately act inhumanely!

Unfortunately, I suspect if the police continue to be shackled in regard to taking serious and immediate action, the public will act and then innocent people will be harmed. It's not going to end well.

Mr Premier Daniel Andrews, pieces of paper and legal threats are worthless if you don't act on them, if you don't act expect the mindless hoards to follow Covid Casey's example not yours, just ask any female victim of violence how useful a restraining order is, help might be enabled threw a signature, but what use can it be if it comes after the violation?

Shizen our society is pissweak, ..................  "Stop......or I'll shout Stop again!"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on March 26, 2020, 10:10:58 am
What's wrong with ducking people?  Just stay at home FFS.  Is it so bloody hard?  

I get called into school this morning to collect on line learning materials - first time left the house in days - and are met by teachers in HAZMAT gear.

Meanwhile on the walk down to school there's the old couple with the  Jim's mowing franchise blithely cutting lawns la la la,  the supermarket is buzzing...shops open.

I've lost my career,  my job and I can stay home unless necessary why the FCUK can't these people - YOU ARE NOT AN ESSENTIAL WORKER IN A CRITICAL JOB.

As for the couple who came back from Aspen with the virus....enjoy the cell you selfish clowns.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 26, 2020, 10:47:21 am
After having read about the COVID Caseys this morning, I'm heading into work because we need to keep working, if we stop food, pharmaceuticals(medicine / drugs), health goods(including poo tickets) all eventually stop.

I drive past the beach and people are rolling up for outdoor boot camp. Four people are there getting ready to join in, they are carrying weights, boxing gloves(shared no doubt!), punching bags, exercise mats, they seem to be in their 60s/70s.

They all got out of the same car, I've never come across a more prudent case for euthanasia!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 26, 2020, 10:53:49 am
According to what I've read, Ardern has support from her party, the opposition, and the populace generally. The national state of emergency may seem harsh, but is about right IMO, given how serious this situation actually is. It's 4 weeks out of your life. They have no deaths and few infections, and she'd like to keep it that way, as she bloody well should.

Yes my Kiwi cousins have nothing but praise for her, regardless of their political leanings.

I reckon Jacinda is doing a great job and would happily swap both Scotty and Albo for her!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 26, 2020, 10:56:29 am
Just because the world isn't being crapty enough lately

I had my ute broken into yesterday morning. $10k worth of tools gone.

Now i can't work until i replace them...or at least some of them.

Yay for society!  >:(

Askholes!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 26, 2020, 10:57:32 am
Yes my Kiwi cousins have nothing but praise for her, regardless of their political leanings.

I reckon Jacinda is doing a great job and would happily swap both Scotty and Albo for her!


Same.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 26, 2020, 11:40:44 am
What's wrong with ducking people?  Just stay at home FFS.  Is it so bloody hard?  

I get called into school this morning to collect on line learning materials - first time left the house in days - and are met by teachers in HAZMAT gear.

Meanwhile on the walk down to school there's the old couple with the  Jim's mowing franchise blithely cutting lawns la la la,  the supermarket is buzzing...shops open.

I've lost my career,  my job and I can stay home unless necessary why the FCUK can't these people - YOU ARE NOT AN ESSENTIAL WORKER IN A CRITICAL JOB.

As for the couple who came back from Aspen with the virus....enjoy the cell you selfish clowns.


Its dead in my neck of the woods Proff. Sorry to hear about your loss, chin up and stay positive. Dont let the imbeciles get you down, I know its hard but try. No point getting angry as it achieves little but affect your wellbeing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 26, 2020, 12:32:16 pm
In the meantime, the US nuffas love Trump because they think that COVID-19 is fake news!

God loves them, and they'll be in God's arms soon, because they saved the planet from frauds and are all free of sin, or maybe that's free to sin!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 26, 2020, 12:43:12 pm
Daughter who lives out West in Melbourne says there was a line at Aldi of around 300 people at Watergardens shops all failing to observe the 1.5m rule...police chopper and cars arrived to break it up and had to educate these clowns.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 26, 2020, 01:04:56 pm
Daughter who lives out West in Melbourne says there was a line at Aldi of around 300 people at Watergardens shops all failing to observe the 1.5m rule...police chopper and cars arrived to break it up and had to educate these clowns.

If the retards haven't got the message by now they never will.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 26, 2020, 01:07:26 pm
It is the year 2057. John gets up one morning needing the bathroom. He opens a new toilet roll and realises it is the last of the ones his parents bought back in 2020...........
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 26, 2020, 01:48:15 pm
It is the year 2057. John gets up one morning needing the bathroom. He opens a new toilet roll and realises it is the last of the ones his parents bought back in 2020...........
Finally he realized how big of an ar5ehole he really was!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 26, 2020, 01:52:34 pm
Dan Andrews has paroles are being handed out like real estate flyers!

I'll be arrested and jailed for posting this stuff soon, the irony is not lost!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 26, 2020, 06:26:57 pm
The Royals are in a bit of strife; Prince Charles is in isolation at Balmoral with COVID-19 and Prince Andrew is in isolation at Windsor with Jennifer-14 ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 26, 2020, 07:54:28 pm
If the retards haven't got the message by now they never will.

If you're that stupid and putting others' lives at risk, batons .... then the message will be clear
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 26, 2020, 08:39:19 pm
If you're that stupid and putting others' lives at risk, batons .... then the message will be clear
Dont laugh, in India, the coppers are going around whipping people with canes for being outdoors.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 27, 2020, 12:16:32 pm
Dont laugh, in India, the coppers are going around whipping people with canes for being outdoors.

We need a bit of that in Aus...got a feeling the Chinese military might be using some more permanent methods..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 27, 2020, 02:13:45 pm
We need a bit of that in Aus...got a feeling the Chinese military might be using some more permanent methods..

I went to the local grocery store to pick up some veggies, a cafe linked to the centre had people hanging around drinking coffee like life is normal. I then stopped at the chemist and again, a coffee shop a few doors down had people chatting having a coffee. Fark that, I rang the local plods as soon as I got home and let them know about it, they said they will be ramping up patrols in the areas I mentioned.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 27, 2020, 02:16:33 pm
We need a bit of that in Aus...got a feeling the Chinese military might be using some more permanent methods..
What about Kim "Rocket Man" Jong-Un, any cases reported there yet!
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/DxPno4Mmeyw1O/source.gif)
They seem happy, all good there!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 27, 2020, 02:18:51 pm
Fark that, I rang the local plods as soon as I got home and let them know about it, they said they will be ramping up patrols in the areas I mentioned.
I feel sorry for them, there was another nutter today trying to get into everybody's space at the local lunch shops, loves all the attention and thinks it's a joke that he can force people backwards just by walking up to them with a smile!

btw.,     For those of you interested, Wired published a really nice analysis of the recent media frenzy and panic paracetamol buying related to the Ibuprofen rumor.

https://www.wired.com/story/the-ibuprofen-debate-reveals-the-danger-of-covid-19-rumors/#intcid=recommendations_wired-homepage-right-rail-popular_7036610f-6607-4e99-bd18-044bca96bbfd_popular4-1
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on March 27, 2020, 03:48:30 pm
More mixed messages.  Andrews wants to shut it down due to the alarming increase in community transmission.  Morrison then steps up with "Every day's extra work is a victory for small business" blah blah.   So what is it.... Shut it down (which looks to be the sensible course of action) or attempt to keep the economy ticking over?

A shut down only works if we're all in,  otherwise it's pointless.  Morrison seems "half pregnant" on this issue. 

And you were a week late in enforcing quarantine fellas, that horse has bolted.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 27, 2020, 04:08:25 pm
More mixed messages.  Andrews wants to shut it down due to the alarming increase in community transmission.  Morrison then steps up with "Every day's extra work is a victory for small business" blah blah.   So what is it.... Shut it down (which looks to be the sensible course of action) or attempt to keep the economy ticking over?

A shut down only works if we're all in,  otherwise it's pointless.  Morrison seems "half pregnant" on this issue. 

And you were a week late in enforcing quarantine fellas, that horse has bolted.
Andrews will happily shut everything down, cripple businesses and livelihoods and then put his hand out to Scomo for $$$$.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 27, 2020, 05:07:59 pm
Andrews will happily shut everything down, cripple businesses and livelihoods and then put his hand out to Scomo for $$$$.
 
Don't worry about the government, worry about the banks who are are taking the piss out of the situation.

All the goodwill surrounding those "postponed" loan repayments is gone, SMEs thought is was a pause and payments could resume with interest after six months. But the banks read that as a pause followed with an immediate balance due, at the end of six months you have to pay all that was due over the hiatus not just resume monthly payments in arrears. It also seems they keep charging you interest over the next six months.

Just for clarity, you can pause repayments for six months, but on the 1st day of the seventh month they want six months worth of repayments!

It's a worthless offer to most small and medium business, they aren't making any money now, and they won't be flushed with cash in six months!

Scomo has screwed the pooch, he's crapped out a Werribee Mullet and sold it to us as a bunt cake, what a ...................!

His balance sheet is heading south faster than sea warming, and I was just warming to his efforts when it turns out they are nothing more than deception! A turd wrapped in gold leaf!

I've been in contact with some SMEs companies today that intend pulling the pin for good next week, not just a temporary closure, they are going to default on loans, salaries, super, the whole freaking lot because of the brutality from the banking sector!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 27, 2020, 05:12:52 pm
More mixed messages.  Andrews wants to shut it down due to the alarming increase in community transmission.  Morrison then steps up with "Every day's extra work is a victory for small business" blah blah.   So what is it.... Shut it down (which looks to be the sensible course of action) or attempt to keep the economy ticking over?

A shut down only works if we're all in,  otherwise it's pointless.  Morrison seems "half pregnant" on this issue. 

And you were a week late in enforcing quarantine fellas, that horse has bolted.

You're not wrong, especially about the mixed messages, Professory.

You only have to look at Trump and his head medico, Anthony Fauci. Only Fauci is actually damn good and Trump is fortunate to have him and his measured, intelligent and informed advice, as opposed to Trumps bizarre, multi-flip offerings.

Scottie from Marketing is trying hard but this is not his forte... he has improved since the w/e though when he gave the vaguest report imaginable, at least now he's attempting specificity and clarity of message. As for Murphy... holy mackerel, the original Henny Penny Sky Is Falling medico. There must be someone better to communicate medical facts.

Dan is probably over-reacting but better that than the other way 'round. And, yes, the economic cost of such drastic measures is simply horrible. But, although extremely difficult, economies can be rebuilt but bringing the dead back to life is a much more difficult task.

As an aside did anyone else notice that when Trump said the other day that the 'cure (to Covid-19) is worse than the virus itself', A. Blot the very next day was saying the same thing in the HUN!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 27, 2020, 07:09:53 pm
Andrews will happily shut everything down, cripple businesses and livelihoods and then put his hand out to Scomo for $$$$.

Cmon mate, thats a bit sinister.

Andrews wants to shut everything down because SCOMO is too piss weak to do it.
As a result, it may cripple everything, but he's not going to do it JUST to take a dig at scomo, he's doing it to save lives.
Will he take advantage of it politically when its all over? Probably, but that is not the reason for doing it....its just a by-product.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 27, 2020, 08:03:44 pm
Cmon mate, thats a bit sinister.

Andrews wants to shut everything down because SCOMO is too piss weak to do it.
As a result, it may cripple everything, but he's not going to do it JUST to take a dig at scomo, he's doing it to save lives.
Will he take advantage of it politically when its all over? Probably, but that is not the reason for doing it....its just a by-product.
I'll just trust the PM and his team on this one.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 27, 2020, 09:30:31 pm
I'll just trust the PM and his team on this one.
The guy who says you can only have 5 people at a wedding....but go to school with potentially 1000 kids running around together is 100% fine?

That guy??
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 27, 2020, 09:43:24 pm
The guy who says you can only have 5 people at a wedding....but go to school with potentially 1000 kids running around together is 100% fine?

That guy??
Yeah that guy. Not the other guy here in our state who manages to balls up every thing he touches.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 27, 2020, 09:53:17 pm
The same idiot that blew a billion on a road contract he refused to build?  Yeah, THAT idiot.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 27, 2020, 10:28:28 pm
Not an Andrews fan but I'm with him on the full lockdown, its the only weapon that has worked anywhere in the world.
ScoMo is prepared to balance lives vs money and thats not right no matter what your political persuasion, lives come first.
Great that we have these cruise ship passengers and Aus returnee's now forced to spend 14 days in a hotel but its more than 14 days too late after they have run around all over Aus spreading CV.
You look at NSW and would you want that political crew running Victoria?...been a co-ordination disaster. Its been strange to me that the two political figures in Daniel Andrews and Jacinda Ardern who I have had little time for have actually handled their state and country a lot better than those who I had more faith in to act decisively.
Not sure who worked out that hairdressers are an essential service but that probably gives you an idea of where ScoMo's thinking is at. As for the schools being closed its a no brainer and has been for a while, sure setup some schooling for healthcare workers kids but the other kids dont need to be there and should be home like in most other countries.
Andrews needs to close down Victoria now for a month and save lives and same for the rest of the country.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 28, 2020, 12:15:09 am
The same idiot that blew a billion on a road contract he refused to build?  Yeah, THAT idiot.

Had this convo with someone 2 days ago.

When asked about this he said....
I just got into office and this was dumped on me from the previous government.
They said it would cost 4 billion to build.
After looking through it, it was more like 20 billion.
So if i went through with it, Libs would blame me for the overspend.
If i canned it, i waste a billion dollars (but 'save' 16 billion)
In the end, i used that money to remove all rail crossings, widen more roads, build new stations.....

So if it ever ok to 'waste' 1 billion....that was it IMO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 28, 2020, 12:17:50 am
Yeah that guy. Not the other guy here in our state who manages to balls up every thing he touches.

As per my last post......'balls up' is a relative term.

I'm happy with what Andrews government has done.
Is he perfect? Is anyone?
Would you prefer someone like scomo running the joint?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on March 28, 2020, 07:34:13 am
"Stay home" I'm told.... Stay home. Seems the rules apply differently to different people...

Yet some bodgy property developer can pour a series of slabs at 530 on a Saturday morning in the middle of town.   Social distancing.... Doesn't apply to me mate this is a site.  I wonder if these cretins are the kind who'll be first in line for care?

I don't care what level they're at - state,  federal or local - our elected representatives are all worthless and ineffectual.  Why should anybody pay attention to any of them?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 28, 2020, 07:46:05 am
Not an Andrews fan but I'm with him on the full lockdown, its the only weapon that has worked anywhere in the world.
ScoMo is prepared to balance lives vs money and thats not right no matter what your political persuasion, lives come first.
Great that we have these cruise ship passengers and Aus returnee's now forced to spend 14 days in a hotel but its more than 14 days too late after they have run around all over Aus spreading CV.
You look at NSW and would you want that political crew running Victoria?...been a co-ordination disaster. Its been strange to me that the two political figures in Daniel Andrews and Jacinda Ardern who I have had little time for have actually handled their state and country a lot better than those who I had more faith in to act decisively.
Not sure who worked out that hairdressers are an essential service but that probably gives you an idea of where ScoMo's thinking is at. As for the schools being closed its a no brainer and has been for a while, sure setup some schooling for healthcare workers kids but the other kids dont need to be there and should be home like in most other countries.
Andrews needs to close down Victoria now for a month and save lives and same for the rest of the country.


Can't disagree with ANY of that Elwood.  NSW and QLD have been deplorable.  181 dead overnight in the UK ... this thing is getting REALLY serious
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Tragic on March 28, 2020, 07:59:58 am
"Stay home" I'm told.... Stay home. Seems the rules apply differently to different people...

Yet some bodgy property developer can pour a series of slabs at 530 on a Saturday morning in the middle of town.   Social distancing.... Doesn't apply to me mate this is a site.  I wonder if these cretins are the kind who'll be first in line for care?

I don't care what level they're at - state,  federal or local - our elected representatives are all worthless and ineffectual.  Why should anybody pay attention to any of them?

We should listen because if everybody listened and simply followed the rules we will at the very least slow the thing down, hopefully at minimum to the point the health system can cope.  I don't envy anyone in power who has to make these decisions, especially knowing if the punters simply listened and acted accordingly, those decisions would probably be effective. 

I'm not an economist or a business leader, or a health official.  We should listen to them and ensure we do the minimum asked of us.  And if we are in a position to do more, then we should.  I have always been able to work from home, so took my kids out of school a couple of weeks ago.  Personally, I think the schools should only remain open for those who need to work and don't have any other option but to send their kids to school.

These decisions being made are terrible, terrible things to be responsible for.  I vote for going harder earlier.  But I haven't spent the last x number of years building a business and have to watch it evaporate in front of my eyes. 

If all us regular Joe's followed the rules, the measures would probably work.  The pollies should probably remember that people are idiots.  Not us of course, just everyone else.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on March 28, 2020, 08:06:18 am
I spent thirty years building a career and a business and it's over.   Ducked. Fini.  Kaput.    But I accept that it's for the greater good. 

All I've seen in the past month is the reality of Australia in 2020.  It's not "how ya doin mate".  It's "F you Jack,  I'm alright... I'm still workin' and I got heapza bog roll". 

These are the exact selfish cretins - at all socioeconomic levels - that refuse to do what is required for the soft quarantine to work.   And we're all going to pay for it.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Tragic on March 28, 2020, 08:16:13 am
I hope you make it through OK Prof.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 28, 2020, 10:44:11 am
I hope you make it through OK Prof.
Ditto, that's tough having 30 years of
building a business ripped out from underneath you. Unlike Dangerfield and crew I  think most in the community with jobs would be happy to pay a bit more in taxes to help those like Prof get back on their feet. Banks and other finance institutions have to cut those struggling with businesses some slack too.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 28, 2020, 11:10:15 am
I'm calling it early - the virus has peaked here in Australia...

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/australia/

New cases in the country yesterday only 130 - and the graph up to yesterday of new cases show a flattening then decline. Of course, new deaths always lags news cases for a time and may rise in the short term (but we've never had more than 3 deaths in a day anyway) - nature of the beast sadly.

Of course there can always be random acts of madness (outbreaks) like Qld local elections going ahead today (what a disgrace) but if our current trajectory continues.....

The key now is to get a cheap, quick test out there and test the f... out of everyone. Isolate all new cases immediately. It sounds like if you've had it once, you're very unlikely to get it again....so test the antibodies and if you've had it get the f... back to work.

Finally to put this all in perspective, H1N1 in 2009 in the US:

"From April 12, 2009 to April 10, 2010, CDC estimated there were 60.8 million cases (range: 43.3-89.3 million), 274,304 hospitalizations (range: 195,086-402,719), and 12,469 deaths (range: 8868-18,306) in the United States due to the (H1N1)pdm09 virus."

Much to play out in the US, but thus far 100k cases (vs 60m over the year) and 1600 deaths (vs 12500 odd). Hmmmm.

and

"Additionally, CDC estimated that 151,700-575,400 people worldwide died from (H1N1)pdm09 virus infection during the first year the virus circulated.**"

Thus far, with the virus globally, deaths? 27000 (noting it may yet rage through poorer countries like in Africa, but then again, their older folk have already died from other stuff or starvation).

With this corona virus, data from South Korea (which has largely beaten it now) shows everything flat lines pretty quickly once you get over the peak!

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/south-korea/

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 28, 2020, 11:19:13 am
I spent thirty years building a career and a business and it's over.   Ducked. Fini.  Kaput.    But I accept that it's for the greater good. 

All I've seen in the past month is the reality of Australia in 2020.  It's not "how ya doin mate".  It's "F you Jack,  I'm alright... I'm still workin' and I got heapza bog roll". 

These are the exact selfish cretins - at all socioeconomic levels - that refuse to do what is required for the soft quarantine to work.   And we're all going to pay for it.



Sh1te! Really sorry to read that, Professory. Wish I could help some how. SO many horror stories coming out as to how innocent folks are having their lives seriously damaged by this virus and the necessary heavy handed strategies to contain the b@stard.

I wonder how many class action law suits will be lodged against China and the WHO for not preventing this in the first place (when they had SARS to show them what to do and not do), and then reacting too slowly when top level medical advice was to act quickly in 'closing' borders around the affected area/country.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 28, 2020, 11:23:22 am
I'm calling it early - the virus has peaked here in Australia...

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/australia/

New cases in the country yesterday only 130 - and the graph up to yesterday of new cases show a flattening then decline. Of course, new deaths always lags news cases for a time and may rise in the short term (but we've never had more than 3 deaths in a day anyway) - nature of the beast sadly.

Of course there can always be random acts of madness (outbreaks) like Qld local elections going ahead today (what a disgrace) but if our current trajectory continues.....

The key now is to get a cheap, quick test out there and test the f... out of everyone. Isolate all new cases immediately. It sounds like if you've had it once, you're very unlikely to get it again....so test the antibodies and if you've had it get the f... back to work.

Finally to put this all in perspective, H1N1 in 2009 in the US:

"From April 12, 2009 to April 10, 2010, CDC estimated there were 60.8 million cases (range: 43.3-89.3 million), 274,304 hospitalizations (range: 195,086-402,719), and 12,469 deaths (range: 8868-18,306) in the United States due to the (H1N1)pdm09 virus."

Much to play out in the US, but thus far 100k cases (vs 60m over the year) and 1600 deaths (vs 12500 odd). Hmmmm.

and

"Additionally, CDC estimated that 151,700-575,400 people worldwide died from (H1N1)pdm09 virus infection during the first year the virus circulated.**"

Thus far, with the virus globally, deaths? 27000 (noting it may yet rage through poorer countries like in Africa, but then again, their older folk have already died from other stuff or starvation).

With this corona virus, data from South Korea (which has largely beaten it now) shows everything flat lines pretty quickly once you get over the peak!

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/south-korea/



I thought the same thing, FB, until I saw we had 111 new cases in VIC today... up from the 55 or so average over the past week or so. And NSW figures haven't come in yet for today... gulp!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 28, 2020, 11:29:04 am
Where are you sourcing your data Baggers?

This from worldometers (noting from today  yet):

Latest Updates
March 27 (GMT)
130 new cases in Australia [source]
March 26 (GMT)
374 new cases and 2 new deaths in Australia: 2 men in their 70s, one had been a passenger on the Ruby Princess cruise ship [source] [source] [source] [source]
March 25 (GMT)
359 new cases and 3 new deaths in Australia. Deaths:  2 Victorian men in their 70s and a 69-year old man who had contracted the disease on board of the Royal Caribbean cruise ship [source] [source] [source]
March 24 (GMT)
430 new cases and 1 new death in Australia [source]
March 23 (GMT)
278 new cases in Australia [source]
March 22 (GMT)
537 new cases in Australia. NSW will proceed to a more comprehensive shutdown of non-essential services over the next 48 hours [source] [source] [source]
March 21 (GMT)
144 new cases in Australia, bringing Australia's total coronavirus cases to over 1000 after NSW announced 83 new cases [source]
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 28, 2020, 11:30:18 am
Ditto, that's tough having 30 years of
building a business ripped out from underneath you. Unlike Dangerfield and crew I  think most in the community with jobs would be happy to pay a bit more in taxes to help those like Prof get back on their feet. Banks and other finance institutions have to cut those struggling with businesses some slack too.

Couldn't agree more. A small business (less than, say, 100 employees), rescue fund to which we can donate loot? Hopefully lots of everyday folk are brainstorming ways in which we can look after small business... which is often where you find some of the hardest working cats in the nation.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 28, 2020, 11:46:27 am
I thought the same thing, FB, until I saw we had 111 new cases in VIC today... up from the 55 or so average over the past week or so. And NSW figures haven't come in yet for today... gulp!
Unfortunately I don't think we are even within sight of the peak (predicted to be late May or early June. In NSW, for the first time yesterday they had more than 50% of their new cases that had not been on a cruise ship or returned from overseas, and had no known contact with anybody who had. That means the start of community spread. And once it starts, it will gain momentum quickly. We're ll hoping the self isolation will slow it down, but there are too many morons who refuse to follow instructions in this country, so increased community spread is inevitable in my opinion
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 28, 2020, 11:56:29 am
I'm calling it early - the virus has peaked here in Australia...

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/australia/

New cases in the country yesterday only 130 - and the graph up to yesterday of new cases show a flattening then decline. Of course, new deaths always lags news cases for a time and may rise in the short term (but we've never had more than 3 deaths in a day anyway) - nature of the beast sadly...

...........https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/south-korea/

I cannot find one single health / infectious disease professional who is saying anything even remotely similar. There is a real danger in just picking some stats and ignoring a whole plethora of circumstances  and contexts that make the situation very complex.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 28, 2020, 12:02:15 pm
of course they're not going to say anything publicly. Duh.

But the data is the data, need a few more days to confirm it but every country that 'peaks' falls off rapidly.....

Picking data?

New cases is the only relevant leading indicator - you got something better? Put it up.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 28, 2020, 12:05:48 pm
of course they're not going to say anything publicly. Duh.

But the data is the data, need a few more days to confirm it but every country that 'peaks' falls off rapidly.....

Picking data?

New cases is the only relevant leading indicator - you got something better? Put it up.

Dude, seriously.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 28, 2020, 12:20:27 pm
I'm calling it early - the virus has peaked here in Australia...

Hmmm, best tell that to all the morons who decided to flood down to the Peninsula Surf beaches today, if you wanted to go there to walk the dog you couldn't even get a car park!

They've basically stopped widespread testing, because the tests do not tell if the person has antibodies, they are doing targeted testing instead, people who are genuinely ill. They have also realised the reporting is fuelling the panic, so they are now restricting the data to stop the media causing a panic. There will be new tests becoming available in the next couple of weeks to clarify the situation. The new tests which cost about $1 and give a result in minutes will see a massive spike in cases or previous cases as they detect both the infected and the antibodies. Not sure how that will be reported, but you expect more people quarantined.

Stage 3 is coming people, it's inevitable!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 28, 2020, 12:22:16 pm
Unfortunately I don't think we are even within sight of the peak (predicted to be late May or early June. In NSW, for the first time yesterday they had more than 50% of their new cases that had not been on a cruise ship or returned from overseas, and had no known contact with anybody who had. That means the start of community spread. And once it starts, it will gain momentum quickly. We're ll hoping the self isolation will slow it down, but there are too many morons who refuse to follow instructions in this country, so increased community spread is inevitable in my opinion

Quote me your source Jack...re May/June. That is illogical.

The incubation period (99%) anyway is 14 days or less (median 5 days).

And:

"Even people who develop symptoms are at risk of unwittingly spreading the virus. A study in China suggests that infectiousness starts about 2.5 days before the onset of symptoms, and peaks 15 hours before (medRxiv, doi.org/dqbr).

We know that coughs and sneezes spread the virus, so how is it possible for asymptomatic people to spread the infection?

People with mild or no symptoms can have a very high viral load in their upper respiratory tracts, meaning they can shed the virus through spitting, touching their mouths or noses and then a surface, or possibly talking. Even people who don’t feel ill occasionally cough or sneeze.

Once symptoms develop, a person’s viral load declines steadily, and they become increasingly less infectious. However, people appear to keep shedding the virus for around two weeks after they recover from covid-19, both in their saliva and stools (medRxiv, doi.org/dqbs). This means that even once a person’s symptoms have cleared, it may still be possible to infect other people.

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2238473-you-could-be-spreading-the-coronavirus-without-realising-youve-got-it/#ixzz6HwUGhmXL

"the start of community spread"? What the f... do you think has been happening in recent weeks?

Why do you think we've been socially isolating?

The data doesn't lie! (short of a random event)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 28, 2020, 12:23:44 pm
Hmmm, best tell that to all the morons who decided to flood down to the Peninsula Surf beaches today, if you wanted to go there to walk the dog you couldn't even get a car park!

They've basically stopped widespread testing, there will be new tests becoming available in the next couple of weeks to clarify the situation. The new tests which cost about $1 and give a result in minutes will see a massive spike in cases or previous cases as they detect both the infected and the antibodies. Not sure how that will be reported.

Stage 3 is coming people, it's inevitable!

And so be it. Fine idiots who don't act appropriately.

A few $500 fines will clear the beaches.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 28, 2020, 12:25:54 pm
OK, they have just updated yesterday's new cases to 328!

March 27 (GMT)
328 new cases in Australia [source]
March 26 (GMT)
374 new cases and 2 new deaths in Australia: 2 men in their 70s, one had been a passenger on the Ruby Princess cruise ship [source] [source] [source] [source]
March 25 (GMT)
359 new cases and 3 new deaths in Australia. Deaths:  2 Victorian men in their 70s and a 69-year old man who had contracted the disease on board of the Royal Caribbean cruise ship [source] [source] [source]
March 24 (GMT)
430 new cases and 1 new death in Australia [source]
March 23 (GMT)
278 new cases in Australia [source]
March 22 (GMT)
537 new cases in Australia. NSW will proceed to a more comprehensive shutdown of non-essential services over the next 48 hours [source] [source] [source]
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 28, 2020, 12:26:54 pm
The incubation period (99%) anyway is 14 days or less (median 5 days).
They don't know the incubation period yet, those reports were speculation that the media have reported as fact, and they don't know how asymptomatic carriers spread the disease, the Colorado COVID Caseys out there leaving Portsea are increasing in number by the ratio of about 5:1 each and every day!  That's basic math and cannot lie!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 28, 2020, 12:32:20 pm
And so be it. Fine idiots who don't act appropriately.

A few $500 fines will clear the beaches.
 You can't believe it's peaked, and also believe fining healthy people is rational, so I presume you don't really believe it's peaked!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 28, 2020, 12:39:57 pm
No, they've done some initial studies on the incubation period - and of course there are a few outliers - I've seen 27 days.

Let's reassess in a few days, then we'll have a better idea.

And yes I was more confident when yesterday's number was 130, rather than the adjusted 328 - still looks like it's flat lining....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 28, 2020, 12:40:31 pm
You can't believe it's peaked, and also believe fining healthy people is rational, so I presume you don't really believe it's peaked!

ps why shouldn't idiots be fined?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 28, 2020, 12:41:44 pm
ps why shouldn't idiots be fined?
 I was questioning your beliefs not the fines.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 28, 2020, 12:48:44 pm
I'm just interpreting the data.

Sure, need several more days to confirm it but.....

And I'm not suggesting the country drop all or any restrictions. Just that to say this may feed into June is BS.

End of the day, the data is the data. It appears to have stabilised. But of course some area are behind others and the Bondi gathering from last weekend hasn't shown up in the data yet?

Maybe an event that like will result in a brief spike, maybe it won't.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 28, 2020, 12:51:43 pm
And hey presto, here it comes:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/26/gordon-brown-calls-for-global-government-to-tackle-coronavirus
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 28, 2020, 12:52:37 pm
Quote me your source Jack...re May/June. That is illogical.

The incubation period (99%) anyway is 14 days or less (median 5 days).

And:

"Even people who develop symptoms are at risk of unwittingly spreading the virus. A study in China suggests that infectiousness starts about 2.5 days before the onset of symptoms, and peaks 15 hours before (medRxiv, doi.org/dqbr).

We know that coughs and sneezes spread the virus, so how is it possible for asymptomatic people to spread the infection?

People with mild or no symptoms can have a very high viral load in their upper respiratory tracts, meaning they can shed the virus through spitting, touching their mouths or noses and then a surface, or possibly talking. Even people who don’t feel ill occasionally cough or sneeze.

Once symptoms develop, a person’s viral load declines steadily, and they become increasingly less infectious. However, people appear to keep shedding the virus for around two weeks after they recover from covid-19, both in their saliva and stools (medRxiv, doi.org/dqbs). This means that even once a person’s symptoms have cleared, it may still be possible to infect other people.

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2238473-you-could-be-spreading-the-coronavirus-without-realising-youve-got-it/#ixzz6HwUGhmXL

"the start of community spread"? What the f... do you think has been happening in recent weeks?

Why do you think we've been socially isolating?

The data doesn't lie! (short of a random event)
https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/coronavirus-cases-in-australia-will-peak-in-may-or-june-health-authorities-say-c-761936
"Victorian Health Minister Jenny Mikakos and Chief Health Officer Dr Brett Sutton made the grim announcement on Wednesday."
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 28, 2020, 12:56:50 pm
Flyboy we also need to understand that the current day's data is a week or more behind what is actually happening today. I pay little attention (if any) to the number of new cases every day. This depends on who is getting tested. Now that the numbers of people getting off cruise ships and returning from overseas is declining (and we're FINALLY quarantining them properly like we should have been doing a month ag0), I'm not surprised that the numbers appear to be slowing. But as I said, once community spread kicks off, and it will, the numbers will escalate quickly
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 28, 2020, 01:03:29 pm
Different measure - total cases of course will grow for weeks and weeks.

New cases - and more specifically the rate of change in new cases, is the only indicator that tells you where it's going.

Australia, thus far, has done remarkably well all said.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 28, 2020, 01:05:23 pm
Flyboy we also need to understand that the current day's data is a week or more behind what is actually happening today. I pay little attention (if any) to the number of new cases every day. This depends on who is getting tested. Now that the numbers of people getting off cruise ships and returning from overseas is declining (and we're FINALLY quarantining them properly like we should have been doing a month ag0), I'm not surprised that the numbers appear to be slowing. But as I said, once community spread kicks off, and it will, the numbers will escalate quickly

How does "community spread" escalate quickly when most (the greater majority by far) people are isolating - that is wrong.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 28, 2020, 01:11:39 pm
How does "community spread" escalate quickly when most (the greater majority by far) people are isolating - that is wrong.
Because too many are not isolating, and they then go home and spread it to their families/housemates.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 28, 2020, 01:13:51 pm
we'll see Jack....

I'd say 90% + are doing the right thing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 28, 2020, 01:17:40 pm
Flyboy we also need to understand that the current day's data is a week or more behind what is actually happening today. I pay little attention (if any) to the number of new cases every day. This depends on who is getting tested. Now that the numbers of people getting off cruise ships and returning from overseas is declining (and we're FINALLY quarantining them properly like we should have been doing a month ag0), I'm not surprised that the numbers appear to be slowing. But as I said, once community spread kicks off, and it will, the numbers will escalate quickly
100% correct, so far we've only had a small number of community spread cases, Flyboy's using the same flawed logic that the USA, Italy and Spain used, and now they are a basket case!

Trump's placed a bet, that his drug companies will arrive at either a cure or prophylactic in time to prevent the case surge his policy triggers. It's the same appalling logic being exhibited by Portsea residents as the asymptotically spread the infection, I wonder where their children and grandchildren are, do you think they have them isolated? The spread this malaise by talking about the "price of the cure is too high" just to save a few lives, yet you know if they were first in the queue for infection a life would be priceless!

If this disease killed kids and babies preferentially over adults, we'd already be walking around in hazmat suits, identifying dissenters as modern day King Herrods and shooting them on sight!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 28, 2020, 01:17:58 pm
I agree Flyboy, and that's about as good as we could expect I reckon. The other thing to consider in community spread is the numbers of people going to supermarkets, bunnings etc. I think it's inevitable that asymptomatic people will spread viruses around these places and other people will pick them up. I really hope the education about washing hands etc will limit this
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 28, 2020, 01:22:43 pm
100% correct, so far we've only had a small number of community spread cases, Flyboy's using the same flawed logic that the USA, Italy and Spain used, and now they are a basket case!

Trump's placed a bet, that his drug companies will arrive at either a cure or prophylactic in time to prevent the case surge his policy triggers. It's the same appalling logic being exhibited by Portsea residents as the asymptotically spread the infection, I wonder where their children and grand children are, do you think they have them isolated?

If this disease killed kids and babies preferentially over adults, we'd already be walking around in hazmat suits, identifying dissenters as modern day King Herrods and shooting them on sight!

What flawed logic is that LP - that is offensive.

I consider we should have shut down sooner and harder....and I'm not saying we slacken off now.

There is no flaw in my logic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 28, 2020, 01:28:48 pm
What flawed logic is that LP - that is offensive.
You can't deny what has already happened, it's not fake news, and you're preaching a philosophy that can potentially leads morons into repeating the same mistakes of the past.

You're offering the coronavirus version of Nietzsche's Alt-Right loving philosophy, you can't hope to claim you're innocent retrospectively and you can't undo the damage once it's done if it happens!

You're arguing the societal version of "There, there, there, the danger has past it'll be alright!" You might well be right, but it's just a disastrously uniformed coin toss that your publicly broadcast opinion is based on! The dead set tell is hidden in the certainty of your convictions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 28, 2020, 01:41:01 pm
You can't deny what has already happened, it's not fake news, and you're preaching an philosophy that leads morons into repeating the same mistakes of the past.

You're offering the coronavirus version of Nietzsche's Alt-Right loving philosophy, you can't claim you're innocent retrospectively and you can't undo the damage once it's done!

There's nothing alt-right or racist in his philosophy. His sister Elizabeth, who certainly was racist and outlived Nietzsche, re-presented his ideas in dubious and incorrect ways that facilitated a link to racist / hard right groups. Much the same way that Reagan co-opted, or tried to co-opt, Born In The USA, as propaganda.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 28, 2020, 01:43:52 pm
There's nothing alt-right or racist in his philosophy. His sister Elizabeth, who certainly was racist and outlived Nietzsche, re-presented his ideas in dubious and incorrect ways that facilitated a link to racist / hard right groups. Much the same way that Reagan co-opted, or tried to co-opt, Born In The USA, as propaganda.
First, I'll concede that Nietzsche's intent was probably different from the outcome, I too do not believe he was racist, but his language was dangerous.

Often it's how something is written not what their intent might be, the unintended consequences of loose language, the language of systematic and endemic slavery and oppression as a natural outcome or phenomenon of society. It infers an inequality, a lesser class.

A complication is that language changes with generations, something quite moderate in the 1900s might be consider radical in the 2000s.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 28, 2020, 01:49:57 pm
Often it's how something is written not what their intent might be, the unintended consequences of loose language, the language of systematic and endemic slavery and oppression as a natural outcome or phenomenon of society. It infers an inequality, a lesser class.

A complication is that language changes with generations, something quite moderate in the 1900s might be consider radical in the 2000s.

It's not Nietzsche's fault if people can't read.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/oct/06/exploding-nietzsche-myths-need-dynamiting
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 28, 2020, 01:51:54 pm
It's not Nietzsche's fault if people can't read.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/oct/06/exploding-nietzsche-myths-need-dynamiting
It's not about can or cannot, it's about emphasis, Prideaux is naive if she thinks everyone who reads the same paragraph takes away the same meaning.

Think of Flyboy's case argued above, he reads the stats and opinions and states an opinion that things have peaked and intentionally or not preaches a philosophy that can be used to argue relaxing countermeasures. Someone else can read the same stats and opinions and think the worst is yet to come. The two interpretations lead to different paths, one fundamentally stating the price is life, and the other stating life is priceless.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 28, 2020, 01:55:38 pm
I have simply stated what the data suggests - that new cases are peaking....

The next few days will either confirm or negate that trend.

LP, if you want to refute that, try your guts out, but the numbers are what they are...

But instead you, the font of all knowledge, jumps into some ideologically based rant.....

Laughable.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 28, 2020, 01:56:20 pm
It's not about can or cannot, it's about emphasis, Prideaux is naive if she thinks everyone who reads the same paragraph takes away the same meaning.

Think of Flyboy's case argued above, he reads the stats and opinions and says things have peaked and intentionally or not preached a philosophy that can be used to argue relaxing countermeasures. Someone else can read the same stats and opinions and think the worst is yet to come. The two interpretations lead to different paths, one fundamentally stating the price is life, and the other stating life is priceless.

That is an outright lie, born of your own philosophical bent.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 28, 2020, 01:56:51 pm
It's not about can or cannot, it's about emphasis, Prideaux is naive if she thinks everyone who reads the same paragraph takes away the same meaning.

it is simply not possible to convey complex ideas and concepts in a wholly unambiguous way. The problem of misinterpretation exists with every book of note ever written.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 28, 2020, 01:58:15 pm
That is an outright lie, born of your own philosophical bent.
No it's not a lie, it's an opinion about another published opinion, opinions that can spread like a virus, perhaps even faster given the world's connectivity.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 28, 2020, 01:59:59 pm
I have simply stated what the data suggests - that new cases are peaking....

The next few days will either confirm or negate that trend.

LP, if you want to refute that, try your guts out, but the numbers are what they are...

But instead you, the font of all knowledge, jumps into some ideologically based rant.....

Laughable.
I've made no commentary about stats or numbers, I'm debating ideas, innocent but potentially dangerous ideas.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 28, 2020, 02:04:03 pm
I've made no commentary about stats or numbers, I'm debating ideas, innocent but potentially dangerous ideas.

Duh, I put up an objective assessment of empirical data.

You extrapolate that into some philosophical position. More fool you.

I say BS to that sort of behaviour..

You're the type who talks over everyone else at a dinner party - because you think you know better - and therein lies your flaw.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 28, 2020, 02:05:31 pm
Duh, I put up an objective assessment of empirical data.

You extrapolate that into some philosophical position. More fool you.

I say BS to that sort of behaviour..

You're the type who talks over everyone else at a dinner party - because you think you know better - and therein lies your flaw.
Something that uses a basic computer algorithm to present a count off like the ticking of a clock is not empirical data.

Again, I've published no conclusion about the stats, all I've done is question your certainty and thoughts which came about from contradictory position you published in your words. You can't believe the peak has passed then call for healthy people gathering in public to be fined, it exposes the underlying beliefs you have on the situation. You having a bob each way!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 28, 2020, 02:20:09 pm
"You can't believe the peak has passed then call for healthy people gathering in public to be fined, it exposes the underlying beliefs you have on the situation. You having a bob each way!"

I'm saying the data SUGGESTS new cases may have peaked - don't tweak the pitch to suit your agenda.

And, by definition, it is empirical data - whether you like it or not. Even if you think the numbers are derived by algorithm. Which is odd in itself.

ps And not once did I suggest that restrictions could or should be relaxed, nor that such steps wouldn't see numbers jump again.

My word you're boorish.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 28, 2020, 02:21:15 pm
And hey presto, here it comes:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/26/gordon-brown-calls-for-global-government-to-tackle-coronavirus

And here was I hoping he was no longer with us.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 28, 2020, 02:29:11 pm
"You can't believe the peak has passed then call for healthy people gathering in public to be fined, it exposes the underlying beliefs you have on the situation. You having a bob each way!"

I'm saying the data SUGGESTS new cases may have peaked - don't tweak the pitch to suit your agenda.

And, by definition, it is empirical data - whether you like it or not. Even if you think the numbers are derived by algorithm. Which is odd in itself.

ps And not once did I suggest that restrictions could or should be relaxed, nor that such steps wouldn't see numbers jump again.

My word you're boorish.
It's true, you were only guessing, placing a bet.

You took offence at me pointing out some logical inconsistency in your published opinion and dragged this into a massive circular debate. Then when I refused to give your opinion any more significance than it deserves you made it personal and trotted out the usual the old adages.

No matter which way you go, it won't make your points logically consistent.

And no, a clock counting cases based on a time algorithm is not empirical, if the algorithm could make some accurate prediction like the case surge in Spain it might be useful, but it didn't and I doubt epidemiologists are going to pay much attention to something that gets manually reset or corrected by a javascript web programmer after the fact.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 28, 2020, 02:47:14 pm
Being able to interpret data correctly is a skill, and not only a skill, but something that requires an understanding of the subject matter at hand. Professionals who have studied this virus, SARS, MERS etc., know full well that any prediction of peak is folly, and almost all of those types are saying we have a long way to go, and things will get worse before they get better. The number of variables that go into figures like : number of cases, deaths etc., are significant, and this complexity makes it madness to draw simplistic or rash conclusions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 28, 2020, 02:55:38 pm
The website https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ quoted earlier doesn't even support the idea cases have peaked, even if you look at the graphed data using a logarithmic Y-axis the cases are on the rise! https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/australia/

Epidemiologists are warning that the risk is this current outbreak could be the first of a series going through several oscillatory cycles. The outcome depends on how well we restrict the rate of growth this time and if herd immunity builds. They do not even know if infection will result in immunity, because as yet there hasn't been any wide-scale testing for antibodies, the possibility still exists that you can get it more than once!

Anyway PaulP, I'm giving this a break for now as I appreciate people might want to come to this site to escape the news not read more debate about it!

Stay Safe!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 28, 2020, 04:04:37 pm
We're doomed
https://www.bay939.com.au/news/local-news/116110-epidemic-of-stupidity-at-local-beach
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 28, 2020, 05:09:43 pm
I agree Flyboy, and that's about as good as we could expect I reckon. The other thing to consider in community spread is the numbers of people going to supermarkets, bunnings etc. I think it's inevitable that asymptomatic people will spread viruses around these places and other people will pick them up. I really hope the education about washing hands etc will limit this
My Woolies was "dead" today by comparison to other days and normal Saturdays.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 28, 2020, 05:13:32 pm
My Woolies was "dead" today by comparison to other days and normal Saturdays.
Interesting, my son went to our local Woolies today and said it was packed, no one showing any respect for social distancing
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 28, 2020, 05:18:43 pm
Interesting, my son went to our local Woolies today and said it was packed, no one showing any respect for social distancing

Went to local plaza Coles and Aldi on Fri. Quite uncrowded and civilized, even got toilet rolls. When we left the car park was almost deserted. Hard to fathom really.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 28, 2020, 05:21:30 pm
Interesting, my son went to our local Woolies today and said it was packed, no one showing any respect for social distancing
Nah not here, lines and crosses on the ground being obeyed. People of all ages and cultures making a concerted effort to keep a distance. Woolies should be commended for their efforts to keep people safe (line markings, instore announcements, sanitiser on the way in, sanitising trollies etc. Well done.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 28, 2020, 05:22:14 pm
Went to local plaza Coles and Aldi on Fri. Quite uncrowded and civilized, even got toilet rolls. When we left the car park was almost deserted. Hard to fathom really.
As was Woolies today, got some bog roles for my mum also.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 28, 2020, 06:02:54 pm
And in our little town, the two supermarkets will no longer serve "out of towners". 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 28, 2020, 06:30:49 pm
And in our little town, the two supermarkets will no longer serve "out of towners". 
Still cant believe buses of out of towners were raiding country supermarkets, over in the States the queues at the local supermarket are being matched by the queues at the local gunshops...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 28, 2020, 06:51:46 pm
http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/podcasts-webinars/episode-1-how-we-got-here

The first of hopefully many weekly updates on Covid-19.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 28, 2020, 08:15:17 pm
Where are you sourcing your data Baggers?


https://covid-19-au.github.io/?fbclid=IwAR3T6XxEYs-dCU4fjJn5VXdcLQIM0GSJ7I4iQrocL--QCkIoIzknFG623bg
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 28, 2020, 10:35:21 pm
I'm not a forecaster.

I hear some stuff from work,and I pass on what I hear.

1.  Our hospital beds have never been this empty.  They're planning for the worst.

2. They are anticipating a full ICU by april 7.

3.  Peak is currently expected to be mid june.

4.  Despite things not escalating quickly flu season has yet to start in earnest and it's really difficult to know whether or not flu season is going to amplify the effect of the virus.  The incident command center is extremely concerned that things will hit us worse than most other nations thanks to timing. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 28, 2020, 10:58:27 pm
From the HS
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/lifestyle/health/coronavirus-spreaders-in-australia-where-they-are-coming-from/news-story/bcbb4d274e9b91430a93d8124b7363e4

Exclusive: People travelling from the US have introduced far more cases of coronavirus infections into Australia than China, the country where the pandemic started.

People with a direct link to the Americas, including the US, account for 19 per cent of Australia’s current 3574 infections, Department of Health data shows.

Infectious disease expert and microbiologist Peter Collignon told News Corp that in hindsight, a travel ban should have been placed on flights coming from the US.

Speaking before Prime Minister Scott Morrison announced all international return travellers would be placed in compulsory quarantine, Professor Collignon, from the Australian National University’s medical school, said returning travellers were Australia’s greatest challenge, as they brought the virus with them, and passed it on to their family and close contacts.

“The US is now our main source of infection, the US and Europe much more than China and Iran,’’ he said.

“It’s gone through different countries at different rates. In retrospect we should have put a ban on the US a bit earlier.’’

Prof. Collignon said the Australian rate of community transmission was still very low.


Figures from the National Notifiable Diseases Surveillance System, released to News Corp by the Federal Department of Health, show that of the 3166 infections recorded in Australia by 3pm on Friday:

*19 per cent were acquired in the United States;

*19 per cent were acquired at sea (cruise ships);

*12 per cent were acquired in the United Kingdom;

*An unspecified number of other cases were acquired from 60 other countries and regions.

The weekly report on coronavirus cases to March 14 showed that:

*22 per cent of cases had a direct link to US;

*11 per cent had a direct link to Italy;

*9 per cent had a direct link to Iran;

*8 per cent had a direct link to the UK;

*8 per cent had a direct to China;

*6 per cent were Diamond Princess cruise ship passengers repatriated from Japan;

*37 per cent had a recent travel history to other countries.

Prof. Collignon said the vast majority of positive diagnoses of coronavirus in Australia involved people who had returned from overseas and their immediate contacts.

“There is very little evidence of community transmissions in Australia. I think it is encouraging because what we have done is along the same lines as Singapore and Korea have done quite successfully.

“They’ve turned the curve – they’re still getting sporadic case but they’re not getting this exponential rise.

“We had minimal or almost no community spread here, maybe we were lucky because it was our autumn and it was warmer, but there’s been spread in the US for at least six weeks and (in) Europe.’’

Prof. Collignon said Europe remained the largest source of coronavirus cases in Australia but that Australia’ relatively-early travel bans (on countries including Italy and Iran) had helped keep cases down, as had early testing, which began in January.

On Friday, the US overtook China as the country with the most infections, with 100,717 cases recorded by yesterday, compared to 81,897 in China. China is still believed to be not be recording cases of people who show no symptoms.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 29, 2020, 12:03:05 am
4.  Despite things not escalating quickly flu season has yet to start in earnest and it's really difficult to know whether or not flu season is going to amplify the effect of the virus.  The incident command center is extremely concerned that things will hit us worse than most other nations thanks to timing. 
My associates in the Northern hemisphere still seem to think the Flu season has compounded the COVID-19 situation, which might be bad news for us given Flu season is traditionally another month or two away. Hopefully by then we have some drugs for prophylactic effects.

In terms of new cases, today was twice as bad as any day we've had previously, those 111 cases today doubled the next worst day of 54 cases.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 29, 2020, 07:59:22 am
People need to distinguish between cases and deaths.

Flu season won't necessarily mean an increase in cases.....but it probably will lead to an increase number of deaths....a higher percentage of deaths from infected.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 29, 2020, 08:07:28 am
More madness as reported by the HS, these kents should know better. I'd farken jail them.
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/police-call-in-afp-to-deal-with-medicos-who-breached-quarantine/news-story/6c1d7d1274d3bb80a93d03f49999df37

Police call in AFP to deal with medicos who breached quarantine

Almost 30 medical professionals have dodged strict quarantine laws after flying in from Chile then boarding interstate flights despite being ordered to self-isolate at Sydney hotels for 14 days.
A group of doctors who landed at Sydney Airport from Chile fled their hotels where they had been ordered to self-isolate, with 27 managing to board domestic flights.

In an extraordinary breach of quarantine orders, NSW Police Force confirmed last night that they had instructed the Australian Federal Police to issue Public Health Orders to the missing medical professionals when they arrived at their destinations.

The incident occurred at 11pm on Friday night when NSW Health asked for assistance to process passengers on board two flights which had recently arrived from Santiago.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on March 29, 2020, 08:39:52 am
It just beggars belief.  The privilege and entitled attitude of these pricks.  We need all the medicos we have right now but they should be chucked in a cell for two weeks.

Maybe if people openly flaunt laws and think they are above them,  then perhaps our authorities might reserve their right to treatment?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 29, 2020, 08:56:16 am
No matter which way you cut it, these 30 medicos, knowing full well the situation, have behaved as criminals and should be treated as such.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on March 29, 2020, 09:57:11 am
Weekly shop today.   F it,  nobody else is quarantining.  Couldn't get basics but a group of  older people who  had blown into town were gas bagging in the front doorway and they'd had a good shop.

The veneer over what we call "civilisation" is very thin.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 29, 2020, 11:35:20 am
No matter which way you cut it, these 30 medicos, knowing full well the situation, have behaved as criminals and should be treated as such.
In fairness this is were one rule fits all doesn't work.

Without doubt they have done something wrong. But if they are already infected with mild symptoms, then they are the perfect people to be looking after other infected patients. We should have been prioritising their tests instead of isolating them, and then making use of them accordingly.

Instead our focus is isolate them and let a healthy medical staff work in the isolation wards.

It's one of the main reasons we need an antibody test as soon as possible.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 29, 2020, 11:56:26 am
People need to distinguish between cases and deaths.

Flu season won't necessarily mean an increase in cases.....but it probably will lead to an increase number of deaths....a higher percentage of deaths from infected.
Yes, no doubt.

The early analysis has already shown a strong correlation between youthful severe cases of COVID-19 and Influenza antibodies, but these tests are retrospective so it's not clear the infections were simultaneous. While frail elderly and otherwise medically vulnerable types are highly susceptible to just SARS-CoV-2 alone, it does potentially mean simultaneous Influenza and COVID-19 infections increase the risk of serious outcomes for even the very healthy, youthful or otherwise. That potentially means the worst is yet to come for countries entering the Influenza season.

It's particularly prudent for Australia, which has one of the highest per capita ratios of asthmatics in the world.

The R0 of influenza is low, typically 1.3, that means one person can lead to 14(1.310) infections after ten infection cycles. The R0 of SARS-CoV-2 is trending towards 3, that means the same ten cycles leads to 59,049(310) cases.

A real concern is that COVID-19 might leave people more susceptible to Influenza, if that can cause the R0 of Infuenza to rise, for example becoming just 1.4, that means Influenza can become 29(1.410) infected people becoming twice as infectious / deadly.

Unfortunately the general public read some of this, perhaps reported as a 7% increase from 1.3 to 1.4, so who cares?

They and many of the journalist / bloggers reporting this do not understand the implications;

R0R010
1.314
1.429
1.557
1.6109
2.01,024
3.059,049
4.01,048,576
If you get to an R0 of 7 or 8 you find out your connected in some way to Kevin Bacon!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 29, 2020, 02:23:13 pm
New case increase in Australia has dropped from high 20% to low teens
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 29, 2020, 02:40:11 pm
This isn't going to be resolved in days.

Stating today is low or tomorrow will be high are just maybe scenarios. To comment with any certainty you can only look retrospectively at a period of weeks or months.

If you are lucky enough to develop a model that works against the historical data you might be able to predict a few days out like the weather, but that reliable model isn't coming before this is all over because it needs the historical data before it can be formulated.

Stating that today was lower, is a bit like climate change deniers stating that today was a record low after a year that averaged high!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 29, 2020, 03:14:12 pm
New case increase in Australia has dropped from high 20% to low teens

Its folly to look at any moving average at the moment.

How many actually get tested?

From what I've heard there's a shortage of testing kits and they're reserving it for patients facing hospitalisation.

What that means is we'll get fewer results until they sort that situation out.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 29, 2020, 03:37:50 pm
This isn't going to be resolved in days.

Stating today is low or tomorrow will be high are just maybe scenarios. To comment with any certainty you can only look retrospectively at a period of weeks or months.

If you are lucky enough to develop a model that works against the historical data you might be able to predict a few days out like the weather, but that reliable model isn't coming before this is all over because it needs the historical data before it can be formulated.

Stating that today was lower, is a bit like climate change deniers stating that today was a record low after a year that averaged high!

From the PMs and Health Ministers speech today (Courtesy of HS)

"In what Health Minister Greg Hunt has called “an early positive sign”, the rate of increase in coronavirus cases has gone from around 25 per cent to 30 per cent per day a week ago to around 13 per cent to 15 per cent today"

I'd say cleverer and more qualified people than me or you are looking at all this info and making calls based on it. All it says is that the measures implemented to date have made some progress.

Italy had less cases than us up to Feb 20. Their cases grew rapidly from Feb 21 surpassing us and everyone else.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on March 29, 2020, 06:46:42 pm
From the PMs and Health Ministers speech today (Courtesy of HS)

"In what Health Minister Greg Hunt has called “an early positive sign”, the rate of increase in coronavirus cases has gone from around 25 per cent to 30 per cent per day a week ago to around 13 per cent to 15 per cent today"

I'd say cleverer and more qualified people than me or you are looking at all this info and making calls based on it. All it says is that the measures implemented to date have made some progress.

Italy had less cases than us up to Feb 20. Their cases grew rapidly from Feb 21 surpassing us and everyone else.

So, you’re telling us that politicians don’t “interpret” statistics to put themselves in a better light...?
Ummm, ok...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 29, 2020, 07:24:01 pm
So, you’re telling us that politicians don’t “interpret” statistics to put themselves in a better light...?
Ummm, ok...
Just saying I didnt make it up or read it on Weatbix packet
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on March 29, 2020, 07:48:14 pm
I think "new cases" is a fluff statistic, you can make this go up or down depending on how many tests you decide to do, and who you decide to test. The stats that are going to matter in this are "new ICU admissions", "total number in ICU", "% of ICU capacity currently being used" and "deaths". These stats would give you a much better idea of where we are and where we are going
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 29, 2020, 08:13:27 pm
We have to take extreme measures, and society has to stop the morons, so these people and people like them can endure!

(https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_800/t_resize_width/q_86%2Cf_auto/e7c60c795745b3afcd458a1ea575779cc4ffa741)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 30, 2020, 03:57:12 pm
https://www.themonthly.com.au/today/paddy-manning/2020/25/2020/1585111558/postponing-democracy

Buggered if I know what to make of it all.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 30, 2020, 05:01:31 pm
https://www.themonthly.com.au/today/paddy-manning/2020/25/2020/1585111558/postponing-democracy

Buggered if I know what to make of it all.
It's a no win scenario for the conservative government, all the viable solutions are social, at least whatever happens should have no excuses for being too slow! So you get turds like Andrew Bolt labeling Scomo a Marxist, a lot of Marxist rubbish being floated around!

I wouldn't call my self a Scomo booster, in fact far from it, but he's doing as good of a job as can be expected, there is no road-map for this situation and it's like balancing a ball bearing on a pin! However, I think Frydenberg might be a bit of a dead weight, he's looking more chook as each day passes, but who can blame him!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 30, 2020, 05:11:02 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BA9eTXwGIk

Probably an Irish Epidemiologist making the point clear, as only the Irish can do...  ;)  ;)  :D 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 30, 2020, 05:18:48 pm
It's a no win scenario for the conservative government, all the viable solutions are social, at least whatever happens should have no excuses for being too slow! So you get turds like Andrew Bolt labelling Scomo a Marxist, a lot of Marxist rubbish being floated around!
.......................

I wonder if the pollies will be stood down without pay. Lol.

As for Marxists - they're everywhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b51g7oXqjrY
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 30, 2020, 05:36:26 pm
It's a no win scenario for the conservative government, all the viable solutions are social, at least whatever happens should have no excuses for being too slow! So you get turds like Andrew Bolt labeling Scomo a Marxist, a lot of Marxist rubbish being floated around!


Ah, the irony... capitalism using welfare state/socialism strategies to rescue itself! Perhaps an important lesson for capitalism, it needs healthy humans, en masse, to operate effectively. Greater investment in health, or perhaps fast tracking robots?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 30, 2020, 05:41:05 pm
https://www.themonthly.com.au/today/paddy-manning/2020/25/2020/1585111558/postponing-democracy

Buggered if I know what to make of it all.

Yep, a real head-scratcher.

Does it say that Scottie from Marketing has little or no confidence in his elected team to handle all of this C-19 stuff? Does it say that he realises his own limitations? Maybe it was an opportunity for all parties to work together? Dan and Scottie seem to have been working well together/supporting each other... at least publicly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 30, 2020, 11:09:41 pm
Yep, a real head-scratcher.

Does it say that Scottie from Marketing has little or no confidence in his elected team to handle all of this C-19 stuff? Does it say that he realises his own limitations? Maybe it was an opportunity for all parties to work together? Dan and Scottie seem to have been working well together/supporting each other... at least publicly.
I think everyone seems to be working well together to get through this, this thing is bigger and way more important than any political beliefs.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 30, 2020, 11:14:35 pm
I wonder if the pollies will be stood down without pay. Lol.

As for Marxists - they're everywhere.
Well, close enough I suppose!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 30, 2020, 11:16:05 pm
Ah, the irony... capitalism using welfare state/socialism strategies to rescue itself! Perhaps an important lesson for capitalism, it needs healthy humans, en masse, to operate effectively. Greater investment in health, or perhaps fast tracking robots?
 Scomo is quite religious, which mustn't be forgotten in this debate, politics and religion.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 31, 2020, 08:35:53 am
Scomo is quite religious, which mustn't be forgotten in this debate, politics and religion.

'No man can serve two masters.'   😉
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 31, 2020, 09:16:59 am
'No man can serve two masters.'  😉
Even, one at a time?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 31, 2020, 12:36:03 pm
Even, one at a time?

Not when the masters are so very, very different... especially so.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 31, 2020, 12:56:19 pm
'No man can serve two masters.'   😉

Or when you are too busy serving yourself....
This $1500 a fortnight isnt targeted well enough IMO and some folk who need it dont qualify(ie teachers who miss by one month due to short contracts) yet a kid down the road from us thinks its great and he will be getting a new car in 6 months..😒
Nurses reg fees are due and they get nothing just watered down hand sanitiser from the scumbags who stole it....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 31, 2020, 01:22:40 pm
I think Scomo is doing the best we can hope for, especially given his political roots and the circumstances.

Doubt that kid down the road will get a loan, at least not from a reputable lender, so he might want to be very careful what he wishes for as the dogs will profit from his ultimate demise!

There is no win in these circumstances, only varying degrees of losing!

Of course, some people might be so dumb they don't know they are losing, wait until inflation kicks in!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 31, 2020, 01:31:32 pm
I think Scomo is doing the best we can hope for, especially given his political roots and the circumstances.

Doubt that kid down the road will get a loan, at least not from a reputable lender, so he might want to be very careful what he wishes for as the dogs will profit from his ultimate demise!

There is no win in these circumstances, only varying degrees of losing!

Of course, some people might be so dumb they don't know they are losing, wait until inflation kicks in!
ScoMo has got his act together at last and I'm happy for all those who need help to get it but I'd just like to see a bit more targeting of that money to make sure it gets into the right hands and isnt used for other less essential items..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 31, 2020, 01:52:01 pm
One good thing.  The surrender monkeys can stop worrying about turnbull's dumb investment in their useless submarines.  Unless of course, Lord Waffler gave them any guarantees.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 31, 2020, 01:54:54 pm
One good thing.  The surrender monkeys can stop worrying about turnbull's dumb investment in their useless submarines.  Unless of course, Lord Waffler gave them any guarantees.
That reads like a comment from someone with experience blowing bubbles.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 31, 2020, 01:55:27 pm
Its ok people, Batman is watching over us ;D  ;D

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/entertainment/superhero-sighted-in-the-city-who-is-melbournes-batman/news-story/469f4a15a499446516052fde7c8c527f

Superhero sighted in the city: Who is Melbourne’s Batman?

As Melbourne is transformed into a Gothamesque ghost town amid the coronavirus crisis, one masked crusader is watching over the city. But who is the mysterious Batman?

Mystery surrounds the sighting of a masked stranger dressed in full Batman regalia watching over traffic at a busy Melbourne intersection early today.

According to eyewitness accounts, Batman was seen brooding beneath an overpass on the corner of Kings Way and City Rd at 4.30am.

FOX FM producer Leon Sjogren posted a picture of the superhero on Instagram, sparking delight — and doubt — from broadcasters Brendan Fevola, Fifi Box and Byron Cooke.

Indeed, former AFL champion Fevola confessed to dressing as Superman and Batman when he was a child.

“I used to dress up like Superman and Batman, and (Fevola’s brother) Jason was Robin,” Fevola said. “I’d always, when I was older, want to protect the streets. Deadset.”

Box responded: “That’s gorgeous, Fev.”

But Cooke suggested Fevola should “let your brother be the hero, and you could have been Robin”.

A Melbourne motorist has spotted Batman standing on a railing
Fevola bristled: “Robin’s not the hero! Imagine Jase trying to jump across buildings. He’d break the building.”

Meanwhile, the bat signal was weak when the radio hosts threw the lines open asking callers to support Mr Sjogren’s caped crusader sighting.

Mr Sjogren said the sighting and picture were “legit,” adding: “(Batman) was on City Rd overseeing traffic. He was watching me as I took the photo. I was worried he took my number plate down.”

Box said: “What we are noticing in this crisis are the heroes in our midst; they’re everywhere

Batman is in the city. He looks really convincing and … also terrifying.”

Social media users applauded Batman’s health and safety measures during the COVID-19 crisis.

One commented: “Well done Batman! Gloves, mask and isolating. You are an essential service.”
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 31, 2020, 02:05:30 pm
I’ll start worrying when “Joker” makes his appearance. Reports of clowns, especially frequenting supermarkets, have been plentiful.  8)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 31, 2020, 02:25:22 pm
Life Down Under might be a bit tough for The Caped Crusader

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/46d485a1b8bc8f22110fcc01f47d9bed/tumblr_mum8c0HRRd1rmq6a5o1_400.gifv)

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 31, 2020, 02:33:35 pm
That reads like a comment from someone with experience blowing bubbles.

No. It was written because it was (at last estimate) a 225 billion dollar joke that we wouldn't see until 2035 at the earliest.  A diesel powered sub?  Utterly ridiculous
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 31, 2020, 02:37:48 pm
No. It was written because it was (at last estimate) a 225 billion dollar joke that we wouldn't see until 2035 at the earliest.  A diesel powered sub?  Utterly ridiculous
Nuclear is carbon neutral! ;)
(https://i.imgur.com/WfBQMQq.gif)
I'm pegging some of those green energy carbon subsidies might be heading south for the winter as well! ;)

Just wait for the protests, what might the banners be,

"Why have oxygen in your lungs if you can't breath the air!"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 31, 2020, 08:09:56 pm
I think everyone seems to be working well together to get through this, this thing is bigger and way more important than any political beliefs.

Agree. Though the Qld Libs tried to score political points against the Qld Labor Govt only a couple of weeks ago, which was shameful.

There is something irresistible about the Aussie spirit and we will see it in earnest in a few months when the rebuild commences. Never underestimate the resilience of the Aussie spirit.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 31, 2020, 08:13:47 pm
No. It was written because it was (at last estimate) a 225 billion dollar joke that we wouldn't see until 2035 at the earliest.  A diesel powered sub?  Utterly ridiculous

Yup.

Take it from an old 'tar', this purchase was beyond ridiculous.

As an aside, ever seen a submariner serving on a diesel power sub after a period at sea? It takes them months to get their skin clean again. (I tried to be a submariner in the Navy but was rejected because I was too tall!).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on March 31, 2020, 11:28:20 pm
Life Down Under might be a bit tough for The Caped Crusader

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/46d485a1b8bc8f22110fcc01f47d9bed/tumblr_mum8c0HRRd1rmq6a5o1_400.gifv)



Not surprised to see Batman back seeing he founded the city........
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on March 31, 2020, 11:56:14 pm
Life Down Under might be a bit tough for The Caped Crusader

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/46d485a1b8bc8f22110fcc01f47d9bed/tumblr_mum8c0HRRd1rmq6a5o1_400.gifv)



If memory serves me correctly he has an aerosol can of “Shark Repellant” in his utility belt... 👍🏼
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 01, 2020, 07:19:37 am
Not surprised to see Batman back seeing he founded the city........
Who? I believe his name has been erased from our history. They tried to change the name of a park in Northcote named after him to that of an Aboriginal elder of the area much to the disgust of the elders family. You'd reckon the idiots would check with the family first to see how they felt about it before they went and did it. The irony of it all was the idiot leading this name was indigenous.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on April 01, 2020, 12:03:40 pm
Not surprised to see Batman back seeing he founded the city........

Is this Batman character making a comment about the C-19 coming from bats! Is he roaming the streets aiming to fight the virus head on!  😁 What a whacker.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on April 01, 2020, 12:44:31 pm
Is this Batman character making a comment about the C-19 coming from bats! Is he roaming the streets aiming to fight the virus head on!  😁 What a whacker.

He could be carrying the Hendra virus!! 😷
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on April 01, 2020, 06:00:45 pm
If memory serves me correctly he has an aerosol can of “Shark Repellant” in his utility belt... 👍🏼


Beat me to it NB, you gotta keep your shark repellant on you at all times!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on April 01, 2020, 07:47:44 pm
If I was English I'd be really worried, I've been hurt by green shoots before...
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/green-shoots-starting-to-show-in-uks-fight-against-coronavirus-health-chief-says-a4403391.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 03, 2020, 11:09:02 am
There is no shame in some executives.

Ansell executives are today lambasting China, not over the hoarding of masks or equipment, but the price hikes!

These are the same executives that closed local production facilities, made hundreds redundant, all in an effort to reduce unit costs, massively increase margins and then accept a fat bonus!

The irony that Ansell are now crying about China now doing exactly what Ansell did, gouging!

If Scomo wants to resolve this issue forever more, he should mandate that if a local manufacturer exists the government must buy something off them, quotas, just like China, just like the USA, just like the EU.

But I doubt that will happen as it's against the Liberal ideology of small government, yet it's free trade that got us into this situation!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on April 03, 2020, 05:20:00 pm
https://coolabahcapital.com/global-empirical-forecasts-of-covid-19/

These guys are on the money - we've peaked!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on April 03, 2020, 05:36:32 pm
But don't tell anyone. Seriously!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on April 03, 2020, 05:53:35 pm
I really really hope you are right Flyboy, because I just came out of a task force meeting with our local primary healthcare network and they are projecting a peak at the end of June, and the numbers of ICU admissions they are planning for are genuinely scary
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on April 03, 2020, 06:51:35 pm
If I was English I'd be really worried, I've been hurt by green shoots before...
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/green-shoots-starting-to-show-in-uks-fight-against-coronavirus-health-chief-says-a4403391.html

Yorkshire has now raised alert level to "Put the kettle on" !!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 03, 2020, 07:17:39 pm
I really really hope you are right Flyboy, because I just came out of a task force meeting with our local primary healthcare network and they are projecting a peak at the end of June, and the numbers of ICU admissions they are planning for are genuinely scary
I'm sure they are preparing for the worst, if people do the right thing, it wont hit the predicted peak. The issue seems to be that the ratbags who have returned from OS and should be at home isolating are not. Police checks found 59 who werent home, these idiots are the problem.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 03, 2020, 07:32:01 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LqWX8D_Tns
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on April 03, 2020, 07:42:09 pm
LOL. They're calling others corrupt ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 03, 2020, 07:54:23 pm
Police checks found 59 who weren't home, these idiots are the problem.
They aren't alone, optimism is dangerous.

I've read the UK modelling suggest at about week two or three people in isolation hit their limit and start breaking the rules, which leads to a second wave of community driven outbreaks. It was the reason the UK refused to go hard earlier, because they know the fun and games and high spirits won't last in the lock up.

You'd think the UK would have a few about the joint with a fair bit of historical knowledge about battening down the hatches and it's effects on the general population. So I tend to trust them.

The big boys in this game are not even sure they have the basic head counts right yet, it's way way too early!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on April 03, 2020, 08:18:07 pm
Then find 59 cells and lock the stupid, selfish cnuts up for two weeks.   You might find the desire to break quarantine reduces dramatically
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 03, 2020, 08:30:04 pm
... with bread and water for one week
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 03, 2020, 10:39:55 pm
Then find 59 cells and lock the stupid, selfish cnuts up for two weeks.   You might find the desire to break quarantine reduces dramatically
Did you see the two pompous turds (mother and son) whinging about the conditions at Crown (yes read it again, Crown) during their isolation. Be thankful we let you back in and not put you on a cruise ship offshore.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 03, 2020, 11:14:58 pm
Did you see the two pompous turds (mother and son) whinging about the conditions at Crown (yes read it again, Crown) during their isolation. Be thankful we let you back in and not put you on a cruise ship offshore.

You're kidding me ....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on April 04, 2020, 07:01:57 am
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/the-puzzle-of-coronavirus-a-huge-variation-in-rates-of-death-and-severe-disease-across-the-globe-20200402-p54gkr.html#comments
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 04, 2020, 07:30:51 am
You're kidding me ....
Nope, I kid you not. It made me so angry.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 04, 2020, 08:09:05 am
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/the-puzzle-of-coronavirus-a-huge-variation-in-rates-of-death-and-severe-disease-across-the-globe-20200402-p54gkr.html#comments
Good article that, thanks Pauly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on April 04, 2020, 08:27:07 am
Good article that, thanks Pauly.

👍
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 04, 2020, 08:31:36 am
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/apr/03/australia-coronavirus-victims-covid-19-related-deaths
Of the 27:
- 10 from Cruise Ships (Aged 78 73 68 75 85 70's 75 80's 80 80's
- 5 from a single Aged Care facility (Aged 95 82 90 91 95)
- 1 contracted it from O/S (75)
- 4 described as "other" (86 81 77 ??)
- 7 in Victoria arent clear, I have read a cluster of 5 from the Alfred and Cancer Patients (1x60's 5x70's 1x80's)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 04, 2020, 08:50:40 am
It is a sobering article GtC (and thanks Paul) ... when this is all over, I reckon we'll be flooded with immigrant applications.  I keep in contact with an English lady and she's "confined to quarters" as a Type 1 diabetic and in a very manner of fact manner, wants to sell up and come here.  She's smart enough to know our wide open spaces afford her a level of protection she can't get at home.

If they move to the right areas and are completely self supporting, it might work out well.

It hasn't in the past

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 04, 2020, 09:21:16 am
It is a sobering article GtC (and thanks Paul) ... when this is all over, I reckon we'll be flooded with immigrant applications.  I keep in contact with an English lady and she's "confined to quarters" as a Type 1 diabetic and in a very manner of fact manner, wants to sell up and come here.  She's smart enough to know our wide open spaces afford her a level of protection she can't get at home.

If they move to the right areas and are completely self supporting, it might work out well.

It hasn't in the past


Time to put a stop to these screwen high rise and multi story appartments going up everywhere.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 04, 2020, 10:00:43 am
I keep in contact with an English lady and she's "confined to quarters" as a Type 1 diabetic and in a very manner of fact manner, wants to sell up and come here.  She's smart enough to know our wide open spaces afford her a level of protection she can't get at home.

If they move to the right areas and are completely self supporting, it might work out well.

It hasn't in the past
 
She's almost zero chance of getting in, even before COVID-19.

I know several high profile self-made millionaires from the UK who all wanted to semi-retire to Oz. As part of the deal they had to make offers to invest large sums of money to start companies and employ locals, one offered to start a high tech laser business, another an aviation/aerospace company, one is even a top of the line science researcher specialising in bespoke imaging devices for medical and industrial purposes, he wanted to set up device manufacturing in Tasmania because he loves fly fishing. Projects costing and eventually worth millions of dollars and dozens or hundreds of jobs.

All were rejected as too old, they are in their 60s and 70s, rejected on the basis that they would be a burden on the health system.

What really pisses them off is that elderly Asians are arriving in droves while investing relatively nothing in comparison, the Poms think it's a corrupt system.

Two of the three have settled in NZ basically doing there exactly what they offered to do here! It's bullcrap, if you're a Chinese mobster and a friend of Packer or Murdoch you're in like Flynn and you'll build a Chinese restaurant and a high rise death trap with dodgy cladding!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 04, 2020, 10:42:43 am
LP.  There is a reciprocal arrangement between the UK and Australia insofar as that applies to our medicare and their NHS.  That's been going for many years.  She can easily fund her retirement and wouldn't take the pension.  In short, no economic cost.  Compare that to "citizens" from a few other countries that bludge on us. :'(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 04, 2020, 10:45:20 am
Time to put a stop to these screwen high rise and multi story appartments going up everywhere.

Indeed.  I loved Kew and developers ruined it inside 10 years.  I was happy to get out
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on April 04, 2020, 11:19:20 am
Time to put a stop to these screwen high rise and multi story appartments going up everywhere.

Couldn't agree more, GTC.  Appearance and quality, today, can go an get stuffed it seems. There was an ugly development in Cranbourne only a few years ago and the cladding started falling off after 12 fckn months!!!!

The quality of builds today is alarmingly crap. I've watched a few new developments here on the Island and holy mackerel... cheap materials and so many short cuts. And kids Karchering rooves without scaffolding protection...!!! When I left the Navy in '76 I worked on building sites with my father and my brother-in-law who was a builder... every stage of the build had a council inspector go over it with a fine tooth comb. Not today. Standards are rooted.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on April 04, 2020, 11:26:06 am
Couldn't agree more, GTC.  Appearance and quality, today, can go an get stuffed it seems. There was an ugly development in Cranbourne only a few years ago and the cladding started falling off after 12 fckn months!!!!

The quality of builds today is alarmingly crap. I've watched a few new developments here on the Island and holy mackerel... cheap materials and so many short cuts. And kids Karchering rooves without scaffolding protection...!!! When I left the Navy in '76 I worked on building sites with my father and my brother-in-law who was a builder... every stage of the build had a council inspector go over it with a fine tooth comb. Not today. Standards are rooted.

Neo liberal, cut-red-tape, "small government" crap, which has been generally adopted by Labor as well, in a slightly modified, "lite" version.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on April 04, 2020, 11:59:21 am
Neo liberal, cut-red-tape, "small government" crap, which has been generally adopted by Labor as well, in a slightly modified, "lite" version.

When the prime goal of organisations is to maximise profits above all else then the scene is set for the delivery of cr@p to customers at inflated prices.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 04, 2020, 02:47:53 pm
Time to put a stop to these screwen high rise and multi story appartments going up everywhere.
Bass Shire has seen the population treble as holiday home owners etc have moved there to escape the crowded city., sucks for locals as its put pressure on the local infrastructure. Reckon post CV we will see a rise in folk moving to the country, more getting jobs where they can work at home and inner city living becoming less popular.
Will Australians ever stop selling out to overseas entities?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 04, 2020, 03:38:10 pm
Bass Shire has seen the population treble as holiday home owners etc have moved there to escape the crowded city., sucks for locals as its put pressure on the local infrastructure. Reckon post CV we will see a rise in folk moving to the country, more getting jobs where they can work at home and inner city living becoming less popular.

What one might loosely call a "market correction" :) 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 04, 2020, 05:01:43 pm
LP.  There is a reciprocal arrangement between the UK and Australia insofar as that applies to our medicare and their NHS.  That's been going for many years.  She can easily fund her retirement and wouldn't take the pension.  In short, no economic cost.  Compare that to "citizens" from a few other countries that bludge on us. :'(
All the people I know who have been rejected would be self-funded and investing in businesses, one has won several of the Queen's awards for export and services to the country. Australia still knocked him back as a health liability. This is just in the last couple of years.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 04, 2020, 06:30:22 pm
All the people I know who have been rejected would be self-funded and investing in businesses, one has won several of the Queen's awards for export and services to the country. Australia still knocked him back as a health liability. This is just in the last couple of years.

OK .... Personally, I know of none mate.  I'm married to an American and she was put thru the wringer when it came to U.S health checks before she got her permanent residency approval, but it seems a travesty for the people you know not to have been cleared.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 04, 2020, 06:46:03 pm
OK .... Personally, I know of none mate.  I'm married to an American and she was put thru the wringer when it came to U.S health checks before she got her permanent residency approval, but it seems a travesty for the people you know not to have been cleared.
You're married.

These are retiring / semi-retiring UK citizens wishing to emigrate for retirement, not the same as a spouse or parent wanting to join family out here as an Australian citizen.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 04, 2020, 07:13:48 pm
I can only go by what she's told me ... and she has spoken to immigration
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on April 05, 2020, 12:08:14 pm
https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/#latest

If you're after some clarity around Italy.....

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 05, 2020, 05:12:32 pm
https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/#latest

If you're after some clarity around Italy.....


I was staggered to read the other day that the Italians didnt tell everyone to stay home until 800 people had died. Having been to Italy several times and having hundreds of relos there, I am not surprised one bit.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 05, 2020, 06:56:25 pm
The aerosol / droplet risk is so high a lot of countries just write off all deaths that aren't obviously something different as COVID, because they are not doing autopsies just cremations. Most deaths are resulting from complications, not just the virus alone. Some regions report low because they are only reporting COVID related deaths that are verified.

Further, the available levels of treatment are not universal, what passes as ICU in some regions is barely a general ward bed here in Australia.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on April 06, 2020, 08:24:20 am
Just as a poser... if someone in an Oncology ward, seriously ill, contracts the seasonal flu and it finishes them off (excuse the lack of tact), is the cause of death listed as seasonal flu or xyz cancer?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on April 06, 2020, 09:53:43 am
Just as a poser... if someone in an Oncology ward, seriously ill, contracts the seasonal flu and it finishes them off (excuse the lack of tact), is the cause of death listed as seasonal flu or xyz cancer?

I'm not in the medical field, and notwithstanding any broader philosophical issues about what constitutes a cause of death, I'd guess that the accepted standard in the medical profession is that the flu would be listed as the official cause, with perhaps a note about pre existing health issues.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 06, 2020, 10:12:12 am
Just as a poser... if someone in an Oncology ward, seriously ill, contracts the seasonal flu and it finishes them off (excuse the lack of tact), is the cause of death listed as seasonal flu or xyz cancer?
I can add some perspective through some experience. My father in-law had Myeloma and back in 07, needed an operation to put a pin in the femur as bone embrittlement (I think thats the term) made it risky to not have it done (ie if the bone broke, he would likely bleed to death). He was a very ill man however it was deemed better to take the risk of surgery as opposed to not do it, he accepted the risk and wanted it done. At the completion of the surgery, as they were moving him, he went into cardiac arrest and never recovered. Cause of death was cardiac arrest (not myeloma) despite a very long list of other ailments related to myeloma (and non hodgkin lymphoma). So its sort of similar...I think.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on April 06, 2020, 11:16:34 am
From my experiences of the loss of someone close, IIRC the cause of death was shown in the form of  "x" brought on by "y". I think an an attempt is made to provide a complete picture leading up to the actual death. Not sure how that may get reflected in the stats though.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 06, 2020, 12:51:13 pm
Whereas Germany artificially deflate their corona death count by doing the complete opposite.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 06, 2020, 12:58:50 pm
You can see from our own experiences, even in a relatively standardized environment like Australia's medical system, that reporting can lead to misunderstandings and accidental misdirection.

Also there is political will surrounding the reporting. For example reports are China has a rise in cases again, but the Chinese authorities are claiming they are imported cases. It's a bit hard to believe, more mysticism than objective reporting. One has to wonder if some of the exaggerated claims are a prelude to a compensation claim.

I suppose we will never know the truth.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on April 06, 2020, 07:11:16 pm
Just as a poser... if someone in an Oncology ward, seriously ill, contracts the seasonal flu and it finishes them off (excuse the lack of tact), is the cause of death listed as seasonal flu or xyz cancer?

I think its been answered pretty well already but i'll add this one on.

If someone is a drug addict, and goes into cardiac arrest from OD'ing or whatever, cause of death is 'heart failure'.

Not sure if you're into wrestling at all, but all the wrestlers die young due to drugs - either cocaine and the like, or steroids. Not one wrestler has ever had cause of death as 'drugs'. Its always heart failure. Even if they are fighting fit and barely 40.

This is also true in real life as a friend of a friend was 'relieved' that his daughter died of 'heart failure' rather than drugs.....despite being on drugs for 2 decades or more. His son knew better but never told him
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 07, 2020, 07:59:53 am
The sad thing is the media know this very well, yet they happily distort reports for their own political purpose whenever the feel like doing so!

The 4th Estate is supposed to be the Guardian against spin, instead it's become the propagator of it!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 08, 2020, 03:34:49 pm
Premier Gladys B from NSW is thinking about relaxing isolation rules so we can have a bit of herd immunity as the virus slowly works its way through the strong and finds it way to the old, sick and weak cutting them from the herd.
She says there will have to be more infections and deaths so we can have the majority of the self immunized herd back on deck and getting back to normal, minus those who she has sacrificed in the process.
Good on you Gladys, you allowed those cruise ship passengers to run amok/infect half the country and now you might want to decide on who lives and who might suffer or die.
Daniel Andrews meanwhile wants to introduce stage 4 restrictions...never thought I would give Andrews any credit for anything but I'm glad I live in Victoria.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 08, 2020, 07:28:33 pm
Good on you Gladys, you allowed those cruise ship passengers to run amok/infect half the country and now you might want to decide on who lives and who might suffer or die.

She is an idiot.   And a dangerous one.   Covering for her lousy incompetent health minister was the last straw.   
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on April 08, 2020, 08:39:12 pm
She is an idiot.   And a dangerous one.   Covering for her lousy incompetent health minister was the last straw.   

Its crossed my mind that NSW health allowed those passengers to disembark so that the infection would spread thereby facilitating herd immunity.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 09, 2020, 01:03:48 pm
Interesting to see the "dob in" lines are swamped with people eager to call the authorities on those that flaunt the rules and place others at risk. 

The BEST news was one a-hole who bought 5400 toilet rolls and then tried to flog them off on ebay and gumtree and was outlawed by both sites.  Next move was to take them back to their source for a refund.  Nup, came up with a blank.

There is a God out there :))

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 09, 2020, 04:29:56 pm
Interesting to see the "dob in" lines are swamped with people eager to call the authorities on those that flaunt the rules and place others at risk. 

The BEST news was one a-hole who bought 5400 toilet rolls and then tried to flog them off on ebay and gumtree and was outlawed by both sites.  Next move was to take them back to their source for a refund.  Nup, came up with a blank.

There is a God out there :))

 
Next are the kents selling hand sanitiser for $40 for a 500ml bottle. I know a guy selling it for this amount, he get get enough. People are desperate, I would rather get crook than pay the kent that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 09, 2020, 05:58:55 pm
Next are the kents selling hand sanitiser for $40 for a 500ml bottle. I know a guy selling it for this amount, he get get enough. People are desperate, I would rather get crook than pay the kent that.
Try Catch of the day and a site called nourished life that has a 70% alcohol version at decent prices, Coles had masks and small bottles of dettol sanitiser for sale at the checkout today.
Idiots are still hording though, freezer food still limited to one item in many cases, could only get one box of chopped spinach and one bag of diced frozen onions. Stir Fry vegies all gone. The fresh vegies had been ransacked and were in short supply, ordered some vegies online via Jims fresh and they were ok quality but in many cases over priced. Its a funny world with petrol so cheap and food so expensive.
Govt have stuffed up with that $1500 handout to workers as well, a lot of very casual workers have had their wages doubled or trebled and a lot of deserving casuals who fell short on the 12 months get SweetFA. One friends daughter fell short by three days and was rejected and another kid we know has gone from earning $350 a fortnight to $1500 a fortnight...he thinks its great.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 10, 2020, 11:14:58 am
They're ramping up testing, so watch the spin on the numbers growth as hundreds of previously untested health workers start to test positive!

Stay home!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on April 11, 2020, 11:52:36 am
Well, there may be a god.

It's obvious here on the Island that plenty of folks have not only come down to their holiday homes but invited friends and so on... just heard from a friend at the local IGA that plenty of these folks were taking their cr@p to the local tip... guess where Mr Plod and his mates were hiding - if you weren't a local and you were dumping stuff at the tip... $1600 fine. Apparently they were handing them out like Easter eggs. Expensive holiday on the Island.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 11, 2020, 12:08:41 pm
Well, there may be a god.

It's obvious here on the Island that plenty of folks have not only come down to their holiday homes but invited friends and so on... just heard from a friend at the local IGA that plenty of these folks were taking their cr@p to the local tip... guess where Mr Plod and his mates were hiding - if you weren't a local and you were dumping stuff at the tip... $1600 fine. Apparently they were handing them out like Easter eggs. Expensive holiday on the Island.
Fargum
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on April 13, 2020, 02:20:37 pm
Should have been a checkpoint on the bridge. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on April 13, 2020, 06:24:21 pm
Should have been a checkpoint on the bridge. 

Agree. There were a few who just flagrantly disregarded the social distancing stuff but I must say that most visitors did keep to themselves and didn't create any disturbances like usual. Quietest Easter on the Island for many a long year. We have 3 Airbnb's near us and all 3 were empty.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on April 14, 2020, 09:50:34 pm
"As the data from the first epidemic wave of COVID-19 mature, knowledge of relative and absolute risks for different age groups and for people with different co-morbidities are instrumental for carefully choosing next steps. Aggressive measures such as lockdowns have been implemented in many countries. This is a fully justified “better safe than sorry” approach in the absence of good data. However, long-term lockdowns may have major adverse consequences for health (suicides, worsening mental health, cardiovascular disease, loss of health insurance from unemployment, etc.) and society at large.29 It is even argued that lockdowns may be even harmful as a response to COVID-19 itself, if they broaden rather than flatten the epidemic curve.30 Information from large scale testing and seroprevalence studies should soon give us a more clear picture about the true frequency of infections and thus more accurate assessments of the overall infection fatality rate. Data from Iceland suggest that almost all infections are either asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic and thus do not come to medical attention. 31 These data also suggest that the infection fatality rate may be close to that of seasonal flu (0.1%) rather than much higher earlier estimates. If larger scale studies further document that the infection is very common and infection fatality rate is modest across the general population, the finding of very low risk in the vast majority of the general population has major implications for strategic next steps in managing the COVID-19 pandemic. Tailored measures that maintain social life and the economy functional to avoid potentially even deaths from socioeconomic disruption plus effective protection of select high-risk individuals may be a sensible option."

Stanford professor of medicine John Ioannidis concludes in a new study that the risk of death from Covid19 for people under 65 years of age, even in global „hotspots“, is equivalent to the risk of a fatal car accident for daily commuters driving between 9 and 400 miles.

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.05.20054361v1.full.pdf

 

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on April 15, 2020, 07:55:08 am
Notwithstanding the fact that the article is 4 weeks old (which makes a difference in a fast changing situation like this), it seems a rather odd position to be taking, for someone so learned. He doesn't propose any alternatives to the supposedly "draconian" measures currently in force (which are not all that draconian in my view, just some temporary and precautionary common sense). He simply repeats what we already know - i.e the testing is inadequate, we don't really know what the future holds, there could be some negative mental health outcomes because of the current measures etc. The world has been caught on the hop because we ignored the warnings of infectious disease experts, going back several years, that a pandemic like this was a certainty, and simply a case of when, not if. As a consequence, we were hopelessly unprepared, and hopelessly under resourced.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 15, 2020, 08:25:43 am
There is money to be made in these circumstances, just like there is money to be made denying climate change or boosting clean coal, COVID-19 is just another profit making opportunity for many people.

As such many of the repeated opinions appear to be attempts at raising a researcher's profile, not really about some radical new insight into the problem, the tell is that no solutions get offered. It's no accident China and the USA are slamming the lid on research funding, as the pandemic is being gamed by many.

Even so, "What is the problem?" is still a question worth asking, but I think the underlying context that articles like this are being referenced in remains a bit disrespectful for the general population. It's the sort of rubbish The Donald would promote while having a private ICU towed around behind him! It reads as, "So a few will die, but not me so it's no big deal!"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on April 15, 2020, 09:06:51 am
I find myself agreeing with both the article that FB77 posted and what Pauly posted.

To be dangerously personal!!!... when Stage 3 was announced and all that it meant, and without a time frame, I found my PTSD and Panic Disorder (a nasty member of the anxiety disorder group) stuff fully triggered. This meant, in blunt terms I was a mess and needed medication and full on help. This lasted about 2 weeks. If I didn't work in the industry that I do, and understand my options re resources/strategies/support, the downward spiral could easily have been life threatening... or I could have self-medicated or taken it out on others. I know that may sound dramatic to some, but all I am doing is stating a fact. I was not far from admitting myself to the Albert Road Clinic for my own safety... Mrs Baggers was fully aware of my predicament and ready to assist. I am in regular touch with my Psychiatrist buddy at the Albert Road Clinic and am seeing (well, Skyping) a military trained psychologist (who fully understands PTSD and PD caused by military experience) with expenses met by Veterans Affairs. But what about the thousands of other men and women (non military/every day folk) with similar disorders (a whole lot more common than many think - including depressive illnesses) but without knowing their resources or how to access them or refusing to admit the problem... or to even understand what is happening to them? What does this have the potential of doing to them? What is happening, silently, behind closed doors in hundreds, maybe thousands of homes in Oz... not to mention, globally. I am talking about the spectrum from self harm / abuse to the harm and abuse of others (particularly family members) and other resultant psychological issues.

So, there is much truth in the article published by FB77... but... what Pauly posted, especially the line of wisdom... 'The world has been caught on the hop because we ignored the warnings of infectious disease experts, going back several years, that a pandemic like this was a certainty, and simply a case of when, not if. As a consequence, we were hopelessly unprepared, and hopelessly under resourced.' This is laceratingly accurate and true... and an indictment on so many (so-called) leaders. Hopefully huge resources will be ploughed into relentless research and more fckn hospital beds so WHEN the next pandemic arrives, we are well resourced and prepared to deal with ALL the resultant illnesses AND ensuring the economic operation of the nation is minimally impacted!!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on April 15, 2020, 10:17:54 am
Hang in there Shano. Good to see that you can manage your condition with appropriate knowledge, resources etc. There has been some improvement in recent times wrt public awareness of mental health, but we still have a long way to go IMO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 15, 2020, 10:27:36 am
Hopefully huge resources will be ploughed into relentless research and more fckn hospital beds so WHEN the next pandemic arrives, we are well resourced and prepared to deal with ALL the resultant illnesses AND ensuring the economic operation of the nation is minimally impacted!!!
Unfortunately Baggers I think the complacency will return, preventing it is a bit like immunity, you need a regular vaccination.

Then you also have to consider the destructive role of blokes like Trump, who for example is pointing the finger at pretty much everybody else, clearly no lesson learned!

On the personal side of things, glad to hear you're able to work your way through that stuff and that you are willing to share, the shared message is critical.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 15, 2020, 10:44:17 am
There's one saving grace.  The exposure of the U.N. WHO and the fork tongued Chinese regime.

The world won't be quite the same ever again.  It's the frontline medical teams my heart goes out to right across the planet.  There's a sobering lesson in that. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on April 15, 2020, 11:11:36 am
Whatever imperfections those two organizations may have pale into insignificance when compared to the failures of capitalism.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 15, 2020, 11:12:54 am
There's one saving grace.  The exposure of the U.N. WHO and the fork tongued Chinese regime.

The world won't be quite the same ever again.  It's the frontline medical teams my heart goes out to right across the planet.  There's a sobering lesson in that.
Ignoring the politics of funding, which is clearly corrupt, I was interested to hear a report by the BBC a couple of weeks back that pointed the finger at sovereign states for going rogue and not implementing the WHO recommendations. The BBC claim was that a reversion to self-preservation mode by sovereign states caused the problem to rapidly become much worse than it should have been. Not just China in trying to close down reporting, but all countries that stupidly thought closing the borders would solve the problem. The WHO's pre-established policy was basically defined as act quickly locally and send help quickly globally, none of it happened, it was willful global denial and something we should all now be very familiar with given we are gifted tweets and tweets of it almost hourly!

btw., That report said the crap is yet to hit the fan, 3rd world African and SE Asian nations are barely getting started in this crisis and if things don't change from June onward it will be pretty ordinary.

As for capitalism/commercialism, it looks like it's both the cause and the cure, are we surprised? Just take a look at how many rubbish "COVID-19 Test Kits" and "N95 Masks" are being returned, or have attempted to be returned, to various profiteering entities in recent weeks. Hard to see trust being restored in the short term, if ever.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 15, 2020, 12:07:08 pm
LP.  The W.H.O. were never in a position to dictate to anyone and neither should they given their defence of china's decision to re-open wet markets.  This isn't the one world order they'd like to institute.  But that said, I ignore anything from the U.N. and have done for decades.  I'm not about to change my opinion.  Ever.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 15, 2020, 12:28:47 pm
LP.  The W.H.O. were never in a position to dictate to anyone and neither should they given their defence of china's decision to re-open wet markets.  This isn't the one world order they'd like to institute.  But that said, I ignore anything from the U.N. and have done for decades.  I'm not about to change my opinion.  Ever.
I don't know Capcom, I don't think the WHO were dictating, they are guidelines and recommendations.

I suspect there are problems with bureaucracy like there are with capitalism or communism.

Lots of the front line people work for the WHO or UN, I don't think it's fair to taint those individuals by association because of a general perception of the institution, or because of some of it's corrupt members, some of the warnings the front line individuals offered go back more than a decade and became WHO or UN policy.

In times like this anarchy tends to rise up, it's even worse!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on April 16, 2020, 01:19:40 pm
There's one saving grace.  The exposure of the U.N. WHO and the fork tongued Chinese regime.

The world won't be quite the same ever again.  It's the frontline medical teams my heart goes out to right across the planet.  There's a sobering lesson in that. 

Absolutely. Many will learn that they like working from home.

China and the WHO have lost the little credibility they had. They'll both be treated from hereon with suspicion and doubt. WHO is supposed to be at the frontline of protecting the global population... not covering China's @rse.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on April 16, 2020, 01:23:36 pm
Whatever imperfections those two organizations may have pale into insignificance when compared to the failures of capitalism.

Aint that the truth. Just look, for one example, at how pathetic capitalism is at public health (privatisation!!!!! FO)... but they've learned an important lesson, that a sick population in any significant number will be unable to work and that'll cost them. Remember, capitalism, were it a living organism would be totally sociopathic - people don't matter, numbers and control, do.

And it is beginning to become blatantly obvious to so many that it is the principles and strategies of socialism and 'welfare state' attitudes and commitment that are rescuing the population... and capitalism!!!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 16, 2020, 01:34:15 pm
Bit of inside medical info....ER depts in Victoria very quiet, and talk of immunity passports ie people being tested for Covid19 antibodies and then being issued with a certificate if positive which allows them to travel and do most normal activities.
Begs the question if you dont have antibodies?....would people self contaminate or would there be controlled clinical programs where you would be forced to self isolate again, dont see how this would work without high risk of breakout spreads with people not going the controlled route.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 16, 2020, 02:54:02 pm
An attention seeking Sam Newman trying to stay relevant in todays different world.....and failing.
https://au.sports.yahoo.com/afl-2020-sam-newman-protests-golf-ban-victoria-parliament-034950098.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on April 16, 2020, 06:38:02 pm
An attention seeking Sam Newman trying to stay relevant in todays different world.....and failing.
https://au.sports.yahoo.com/afl-2020-sam-newman-protests-golf-ban-victoria-parliament-034950098.html


Well as much as I think Newman is the ultimate, irrelevant c0ckhead... he has a point re common sense. The entire goal of Stage 3 is to prevent transmission of C-9 from person to person. If he and a mate are out playing golf, so what... others are allowed to exercise. And you never know, a storm could brew and a bolt of lightning might hit and cook Newman's little brain... see, there's always a silver lining (of course I'm kidding, I wouldn't wish harm on he or anyone... though if the Caddyshack gopher leapt out of a hole and bit him on the @rse... 😁 )
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 16, 2020, 07:31:54 pm
Well as much as I think Newman is the ultimate, irrelevant c0ckhead... he has a point re common sense. The entire goal of Stage 3 is to prevent transmission of C-9 from person to person. If he and a mate are out playing golf, so what... others are allowed to exercise. And you never know, a storm could brew and a bolt of lightning might hit and cook Newman's little brain... see, there's always a silver lining (of course I'm kidding, I wouldn't wish harm on he or anyone... though if the Caddyshack gopher leapt out of a hole and bit him on the @rse... 😁 )
See I like the older fellas, if you really listen to them, more often than not they make a lot of sense. I was listening to Blighty being interviewed today on SEN about changes to the game. If you listened to him, he just sounded calm and logical. Some of these younger whipper snappers are abit to shoot from the hip mofos. You know the type, Ready, Fire, Aim. Sam can be the biggest DH under the sun when he tries to be funny or gets on his high horse about stuff he knows SFA about. But when he talks footy, in particular Ruckwork, he is worth listening to I reckon. For the record, some of the things Blighty suggested:
1. List size changes - no
2. Shorter seasons, games - no
3. 16 a side - no
4. Night GF - no, his reason was players play better during the day, less glare and conditions are better for marking
He suggested the following re making the game quicker
- Fewer rotations
- Backwards kicks are play on
- min kick distance 20m
- Last touch out of bounds, free kick to the other mob
There might have been some other things, can't remember.
No none of the above is ground breaking, but when you listen to how it was delivered, it made all the difference.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 17, 2020, 11:48:05 am
re: Carnival cruises......have offered full refunds to customers or a 200% credit....99% of customers have taken the credit option.
Bit surprising those stats for me but clearly the majority of people intend to travel again as soon as they can and that not even a pandemic can spook travellers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on April 17, 2020, 12:15:07 pm
re: Carnival cruises......have offered full refunds to customers or a 200% credit....99% of customers have taken the credit option.
Bit surprising those stats for me but clearly the majority of people intend to travel again as soon as they can and that not even a pandemic can spook travellers.

Still one of the best ways to travel and holiday... out on the oggun (ocean).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 17, 2020, 01:21:31 pm
re: Carnival cruises......have offered full refunds to customers or a 200% credit....99% of customers have taken the credit option.
Bit surprising those stats for me but clearly the majority of people intend to travel again as soon as they can and that not even a pandemic can spook travellers.
I wouldn't have gone on a cruise if you paid me even before this debacle. Absolutely less chance now, if it were up to me I'd scuttle the lot of the disease ridden flow petri dishes.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 17, 2020, 01:45:52 pm
I wouldn't have gone on a cruise if you paid me even before this debacle. Absolutely less chance now, if it were up to me I'd scuttle the lot of the disease ridden flow petri dishes.
I wouldn't go on the big ships either, but I've been on flash Phinisi live-aboards travelling around PNG and Raja Ampat, you won't find a better holiday it's a tropical paradise on our doorstep. Not now though, I feel sorry for the crews and operators, they'd be gutted by this virus.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 17, 2020, 01:50:24 pm
I wouldn't have gone on a cruise if you paid me even before this debacle. Absolutely less chance now, if it were up to me I'd scuttle the lot of the disease ridden flow petri dishes.

Target practice for the RAAF.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 17, 2020, 03:43:54 pm
I wouldn't have gone on a cruise if you paid me even before this debacle. Absolutely less chance now, if it were up to me I'd scuttle the lot of the disease ridden flow petri dishes.

Agree...Cruise ships are highly expensive to buy and run and companies just cut costs and health standards, only place I can think of that had equally bad hygiene standards was the old " swagman restaurant" in Ferntree Gully. 😒😜
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 17, 2020, 03:58:26 pm
Agree...Cruise ships are highly expensive to buy and run and companies just cut costs and health standards, only place I can think of that had equally bad hygiene standards was the old " swagman restaurant" in Ferntree Gully. 😒😜
How about: Smorgies, Sizzler, Sophias etc.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 17, 2020, 04:19:07 pm
How about: Smorgies, Sizzler, Sophias etc.

The Swagman would clean and put food back out again after scraping it from customers plates....did have the odd pizza at Sophia's and survived...just.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on April 18, 2020, 12:00:10 pm
Still one of the best ways to travel and holiday... out on the oggun (ocean).

I guess I should clarify my love of ocean travel... I did all mine on Navy warships and as you can imagine, they were spotless from top to bottom - and so were the sailors.  And the food was bloody terrific. I've not sailed on a holiday cruise ship and much like everyone else, would be very hesitant to do so. If I won Tatts I'd probably give the Queen Mary a lash, but that would probably be it.

BUT, maybe this recent cr@p will send the bad operators bust and cause good operators to step up... maybe there will in future be much greater attention given to medical and cleanliness on these liners? If there is, I'd give it a go... if I could afford it!

This cr@p is also sorting out the airline industry... not a form of transport I enjoy, I can only fly after my mandatory Valium sanger washed down with a shot of vodka (this is NOT a recommendation!!!!). Being 37,000 ft in the sky in a narrow metal tube, and cramped, is not my idea of a good time.

Used to love travelling interstate by train when they had sleepers (Melb to Sydney)... ah, the Southern Aurora... now that was a train! I bet there're few here who remember her.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on April 18, 2020, 01:24:33 pm
The Swagman would clean and put food back out again after scraping it from customers plates....did have the odd pizza at Sophia's and survived...just.

Remember this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL7ocp6jw4c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL7ocp6jw4c)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 18, 2020, 02:20:38 pm
Used to love travelling interstate by train when they had sleepers (Melb to Sydney)... ah, the Southern Aurora... now that was a train! I bet there're few here who remember her.
Agree about the big ships, there is probably only one to have a crack at as you mention, although I've had a friend do Antartica on a research vessel and said he do it again in a heartbeat. I've had some friends who did some No-Casino cruises around Alaska and Acrtic Circle they said they were worth doing again.

Some serious train holidays are available, my dream retirement holiday would be to book a private car and set our own schedule on something like this. Cape Town to Dar Es Salaam on the Rovos, 1st Class. I've been on a number of special train journeys, mostly steam trains in single or double header configuration. https://www.rovos.com/gallery/train-suites

Great Southern also do a private Carriage, sleeps about 6 or 8 people.
https://journeybeyondrail.com.au/guest-information/service-levels/chairmans-carriage/

There are some serious small ships/boats doing the Ring of Fire region or Greek Isles. Many under 50 passengers, pool, spa and bar with serious tucker and wine lists. Any bigger and they can't really get to the areas you want to go into! The best I've been on have been converted luggers and clippers in a luxury configuration less than 20 passengers and crew. The Greek Isles is a bit desolate at the moment, economy has crashed and left it decimated.

The trick for all these seems to be to get a group together a book the whole boat or carriage, then the price comes right down, but you need people who get on together as you know from your navy days.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 18, 2020, 02:35:51 pm
This cr@p is also sorting out the airline industry... not a form of transport I enjoy, I can only fly after my mandatory Valium sanger washed down with a shot of vodka (this is NOT a recommendation!!!!). Being 37,000 ft in the sky in a narrow metal tube, and cramped, is not my idea of a good time.

Safest form of transport in the world Baggers.   if you did fly every day of your life, probability indicates that it would take you nineteen thousand years before you would succumb to a fatal accident. Nineteen thousand years!   That's a fact ... and 15 times safer than a train   
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 18, 2020, 02:42:50 pm
Safest form of transport in the world Baggers.  if you did fly every day of your life, probability indicates that it would take you nineteen thousand years before you would succumb to a fatal accident. Nineteen thousand years!  That's a fact ... and 15 times safer than a train   
I don't mind flying once I'm in the plane, most seriously good holidays start with one or more flights, the best holidays have required 2 or 3 days of airport hopping.

Which gets me to the part of flying I hate, airports, they are cattle yards for humans and are a seriously neglected part of the travel experience. Coming from me that is a hell of a tell, because for work I've flown business class for years and it's still horrible despite the perks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 18, 2020, 03:34:09 pm
Remember this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL7ocp6jw4c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL7ocp6jw4c)

Bit like an evening out with some of my wifes relo's......😜
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 18, 2020, 03:47:43 pm
A necessary evil LP.   But over wing economy exit rows are even better. :-X
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 18, 2020, 04:53:20 pm
Safest form of transport in the world Baggers.   if you did fly every day of your life, probability indicates that it would take you nineteen thousand years before you would succumb to a fatal accident. Nineteen thousand years!   That's a fact ... and 15 times safer than a train   
Is that a fact Cap?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on April 18, 2020, 05:29:16 pm
Bit like an evening out with some of my wifes relo's......😜

🤣
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 18, 2020, 05:44:21 pm
🤣
Relo's will skip breakfast and lunch just so they can pig out on the smorgo and have about three dinner plates piled full and then hit the dessert bar..especially if I am paying.🤦‍♂️
Their idea of an icecream isnt a cone its a tub....😒,
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 18, 2020, 06:22:35 pm
Is that a fact Cap?

Yes sir.  A fact.  100% :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on April 18, 2020, 06:55:22 pm
Bit like an evening out with some of my wifes relo's......😜


 😂  😂  😂 Classic.

Know the feeling... bit like my brother's missus, but none of us have the heart to tell him. She'd chew the nuts off a school bus if you put food, any food, on them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on April 18, 2020, 06:57:43 pm
Safest form of transport in the world Baggers.   if you did fly every day of your life, probability indicates that it would take you nineteen thousand years before you would succumb to a fatal accident. Nineteen thousand years!   That's a fact ... and 15 times safer than a train   

Yep, I'm aware of that but PTSD and anx stuff don't give a crap about facts. Hard to explain mate. It's also about the confined space.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 18, 2020, 08:02:54 pm
I get it Baggers.  I've seen it all, no doubt so have you :)

Had a friend petrified of it and took her ballooning one morning.  It fixed nothing 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 18, 2020, 10:21:53 pm
I get it Baggers.  I've seen it all, no doubt so have you :)

Had a friend petrified of it and took her ballooning one morning.  It fixed nothing 
I have a close mate same age as me, never flown, never will. I also no someone who was killed in a passenger accident.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 18, 2020, 10:44:54 pm
I'm very much the fatalist GTC.  I understand fear of flying ... I had to for the career I chose.

Yet I've seen big guys faint at the sight of a needle.   We all have something we individually fear, most choose not to admit it.  Perfect example?  Fevola and Warne with his arachnophobia.

Nicest thing I've seen from the Fev

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 19, 2020, 12:03:23 pm
Had a friend petrified of it and took her ballooning one morning.  It fixed nothing 
Experiences and perceptions are everything.

Years ago, I had a associate who was into Skydiving, one day his primary chute failed to open, his secondary didn't open initially, eventually opened but not fully and he had a hard landing fracturing his ankle. He never flew or skydived again! In reality, the chance of that ever happening twice to the same person is almost impossible, after that event he would probably have been safer than ever before.

I travelled a lot for work, into areas that could be disturbing for some, Jakarta, Germany and Sri Lanka after terrorist bombings and riots, immediately after such human made events was probably the safest time to be there. Probably the closest miss was being in Christchurch just a day or so before one of the big earthquakes, but natural disasters like earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunamis do not follow the same rules.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 19, 2020, 02:14:24 pm
Years ago, I had a associate who was into Skydiving, one day his primary chute failed to open, his secondary didn't open initially, eventually opened but not fully and he had a hard landing fracturing his ankle.

Ask cosmonaut Vladimir Komarov (Russia Soyuz 1 flight - April 1967) His primary chute failed, his secondary fouled with the first and his capsule hit the earth faster than a bullet.  Weird how things eventuate, but an American astronaut attended his funeral in the USSR and the Cold War was effectively over by that payment of respect. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on April 19, 2020, 04:13:07 pm
I get it Baggers.  I've seen it all, no doubt so have you :)

Had a friend petrified of it and took her ballooning one morning.  It fixed nothing 

I used to love flying. It wasn't until I was 42 when the PTSD etc emerged that I suddenly feared flying and for a period of a couple of years couldn't even leave the family home! So it wasn't a phobia... just good old severe anxiety. I'll still fly today, and look forward to it and am terrified/traumatised at the same time, and need 'drug' help.

If we ever meet up at the footy one day I'll explain the huge difference between a phobia and Post Traumatic Stress.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 19, 2020, 05:05:49 pm
Not a life I'd choose for anyone Baggers. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 19, 2020, 05:36:57 pm
Ask cosmonaut Vladimir Komarov (Russia Soyuz 1 flight - April 1967) His primary chute failed, his secondary fouled with the first and his capsule hit the earth faster than a bullet.  Weird how things eventuate, but an American astronaut attended his funeral in the USSR and the Cold War was effectively over by that payment of respect. 
Well they say you learn something every day, I just did. Thank Cap.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 27, 2020, 03:43:15 pm
I was listening to the radio this morning on my walk, one thing for sure this CovidSafe App has brought out all the nut jobs in our society. They should have tracking devices for them if you ask me.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on April 27, 2020, 06:38:39 pm
I'm really torn on this one.   Used properly this could really help our community, BUT  I trust this neo-liberal government about as far as I can spit a bus.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 27, 2020, 06:49:45 pm
No, refuse to do it under any circumstances
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on April 27, 2020, 07:32:29 pm
Good old Barnaby.... "not getting it,  they don't need to track me".  The prick should be wearing an ankle tracking bracelet as it is

If members of government won't get the app due to concerns,  zero confidence why we should.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 27, 2020, 08:17:01 pm
No, refuse to do it under any circumstances
Why
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 27, 2020, 08:40:10 pm
Census information, tracking of online activity, release (intended or otherwise) of health records, hold over all travel information, CC transactions, phone numbers ....

This intrusion is one step too far.  Regardless of the government in power.  Cede them nothing
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on April 27, 2020, 09:10:25 pm
Census information, tracking of online activity, release (intended or otherwise) of health records, hold over all travel information, CC transactions, phone numbers ....

This intrusion is one step too far.  Regardless of the government in power.  Cede them nothing

Agree.

Even IF the government is 100% above board with their end (however unlikely that might be) the chance of hackers doing their thing should be enough to scare you off.

For the record, the app (supposedly) doesn't actually track where you are. It does NOT know your location (or at least that part is not working at present if it is supposed to) it just tracks who you have been in contact with.
So if someone you have been in contact with get the virus, theoretically the system can send a message to everyone that person has had contact with.....and send every person THOSE people have been in contact with a message too, etc.

Not a bad idea in theory, but you are opening yourself up to all sorts of pain and potentially giving up a lot of information (directly or indirectly) in the process.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 27, 2020, 10:45:06 pm
They have all our information, you are naive to think they dont. You have a TFN dont you? You pay tax right? You have a medicare card right? We all surf the net, bank online, all this is out there.
As far as Government using your information for the good of the community, If you have nothing to hide you shouldn't have anything to worry about IMO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 27, 2020, 11:06:30 pm
GTC.  Are you talking to Kruddler or to me?  I reckon I've made my point.  Not going to change it.

BUT I will add this.  How many people never get to scrutinise documents before they're shredded by state governments after they're kicked out of power?  Truckloads full of the bins on the Sunday / Monday after the election that THEY kept from us.  Why would anyone of us enable that level of secrecy without some questions to them regarding why they "demand" the opposite from us?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on April 28, 2020, 09:13:17 am
Yes - they have all our information, and a lot of other 'people' do too and no doubt if anyone wanted my information, they probably have it.  The 'if you've got nothing to hide it doesn't matter' (which I sort of agree with) erodes our privacy and personal information.

What apps like this do is extend what should be private into the norm.   Once restrictions are eased, how long are they going to keep it active?  What happens when the next issue comes along?  Is the app really deleted once this is over.  How easy is it for others to Phish/scam from doing this (one already exposed)?  What is the next level of 'tracking' going to be?  How does this spill over into the private market?

It is one of the biggest ethical issues of our time - just because we can, does it mean we should?




Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 28, 2020, 10:28:54 am
To me, I think it's about being clever with tech and use every means possible to ultimately save lives. We, as a community, are obliged to assist to fight this thing without being suspicious of government at every corner. This isnt North Korea kids, or the US for that matter (thank fark). I completely understand the privacy thing, but if we don't use tech to fight diseases, criminal activity, pedophilia, violence towards woman and children and terrorism to name a few, we may as well pack up, shut down all the computers and go back to the caves. If tech saves my daughter from a rapist or a terrorist, or my mates Dad who passed away last week from Covid, then I say go your hardest.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on April 28, 2020, 10:41:34 am
The "bracket creep" deterioration of our rights concerns me with this government.  Exactly when do things like this app get switched off/dialled back etc. It's national identity cards all over again,  by stealth.

BTW,  fancy China threatening boycotts.

I'm sure our community and the environment will greatly  appreciate not having millions of tons of rubbish consumer goods and plastic being dumped on us,  meanwhile they can chow down on Panda and Carp grown in sewerage farms, and babies can enjoy paint manufacturing waste being sold as milk powder.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 28, 2020, 11:02:45 am
If this link between COVID-19 and childhood illness turns out to be real you can expect this lock-down situation to go to a whole new level!

What will the likes of Andrew Bolt and Alan Jones say if their grandchildren are at risk?

When us old farts were dying, a lot of the extremist left and right wing media said tough luck for you, cheap home loans for us. If their kids are at risk they'll be shooting people who approach on sight!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on April 28, 2020, 11:07:32 am
They have all our information, you are naive to think they dont. You have a TFN dont you? You pay tax right? You have a medicare card right? We all surf the net, bank online, all this is out there.
As far as Government using your information for the good of the community, If you have nothing to hide you shouldn't have anything to worry about IMO.

Yep. Google, Apple, Samsung, Facebook are all on another level to this covid app.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 28, 2020, 11:59:17 am
Its the storage of the info that is the problem, mobiles are tracked anyway by the telco's...having info held offshore by Amazon doesnt thrill me, given the issues facebook have had and hacking cant be controlled.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on April 28, 2020, 12:27:17 pm
The syndrome LP mentions has been noted in kids in the UK and is a very scary manifestation of the virus' effects.

I reckon states like NSW etc will be back in lock down with a fortnight given the stupidity already on display at the beaches etc.   Dan might not be popular but he understands that easing lock down is pointless if unidentified cases are still at large.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on May 06, 2020, 08:35:13 am
https://www.smh.com.au/national/vaccine-optimism-is-misplaced-the-covid-19-breakthrough-will-come-elsewhere-20200503-p54pge.html#comments
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 06, 2020, 09:49:33 am
https://www.smh.com.au/national/vaccine-optimism-is-misplaced-the-covid-19-breakthrough-will-come-elsewhere-20200503-p54pge.html#comments
Good article PaulP.

SARS-CoV-2 is here to stay, along with many many variants, it's highly unlikely science will find one vaccine to rule them all!

It's far more likely that they might get into gear with an Influenza like approach, and try to get ahead of the mutation curve using statistical analysis. The problem being it looks like SARS-CoV-2 vaccines have a very short effective window, just a few months, and next year it'll be a different strain, and the year after and the year after. Proclamations of it's demise are to say the least, a little premature!

I think the bigger worry will prove to be the long term effects on children. It's becoming clear as each week passes that despite not being as lethal in children it potentially has some significant long term effects, and the long health outcomes are unknown for children and infants exposed to SARS-CoV-2, and they won't be known for a generation or more!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on May 06, 2020, 09:54:05 pm
Interesting article from an IT person:

https://medium.com/@sustained_ice_gerbil/why-i-installed-the-covidsafe-app-4b8acb52097b
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 15, 2020, 11:16:38 am
I can absolutely assure you this COVID-19 situation is far from over, driven primarily by this peripheral disease issue in children.

https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/coronavirus-linked-children-s-disease-cases-spike-in-italy-france-20200515-p54t8k.html

This is not sensationalist reporting, in fact the issue is being almost ignored at the moment as children do not buy newspapers, watch CNN or blog right wing conspiracies.

The prospect of setting up a large portion of a whole generation to ill-health is daunting governments and health authorities, there is a long term cost issue some wish to ignore for political purposes.

As an aside, it even appears that infected asymptomatic adults can also suffer some of the symptoms. With apparently unrelated rashes and dermatitis like complaints on hands and feet all beginning to show signs of an association.

Sobering thought, lots of current AFL players have pre-school aged children, I hope the AFL and AFLPA have the liability insurance paid up!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 02, 2020, 10:50:07 am
Did I hear correctly, that the cohort of Patrick "Icypole" Dangerfield wants to see the AFL books before they take on the idea of a further paycut?

Apparently it seems some think this COVID-19 event is a hoax just designed by The Big House to rip them off!

Do we get to see the books too, and perhaps the player's and player manager's books as well, so we can accept their justifications for only taking an 8% annual paycut?

I feel we(the public) would be better off if all 780 of them(the players) bugger off to the USA to live out those conspiracy dreams, and we find local enthusiastic replacements!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 11, 2020, 01:17:24 pm
The first ball hasn't bounced and there are guys getting outed and banned right, left and centre for COVID-19 violations!

There are a bunch of new cases today, the bulk of them linked to single demonstrator from last weekends protests!

(https://media.giphy.com/media/YPIrsRqqO7oB2/200.gif)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 11, 2020, 02:12:55 pm
The first ball hasn't bounced and there are guys getting outed and banned right, left and centre for COVID-19 violations!

There are a bunch of new cases today, the bulk of them linked to single demonstrator from last weekends protests!

(https://media.giphy.com/media/YPIrsRqqO7oB2/200.gif)

No LP, there are no cases linked to the protester ... yet!

Some of the 8 new cases are still under investigation but returned travellers at Rydges are the main source of new infections.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 11, 2020, 07:08:33 pm
The first ball hasn't bounced and there are guys getting outed and banned right, left and centre for COVID-19 violations!

There are a bunch of new cases today, the bulk of them linked to single demonstrator from last weekends protests!

(https://media.giphy.com/media/YPIrsRqqO7oB2/200.gif)
Kent
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 12, 2020, 08:19:52 am
No LP, there are no cases linked to the protester ... yet!

Some of the 8 new cases are still under investigation but returned travellers at Rydges are the main source of new infections.
Yep sorry, went too soon, I heard it on radio at lunchtime that there were eight new cases linked to a protester and posted here. See what happens when you take what is reported by the media as truthful?

Will the protesters point that out when defending their actions, and if so will they use the same perspective when examining the way Floyd is now portrayed in the media?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 12, 2020, 10:33:30 am
Yep sorry, went too soon, I heard it on radio at lunchtime that there were eight new cases linked to a protester and posted here. See what happens when you take what is reported by the media as truthful?

Will the protesters point that out when defending their actions, and if so will they use the same perspective when examining the way Floyd is now portrayed in the media?
Floyd was a career criminal who had been convicted for theft, criminal trespassing, aggravated robbery as well as entering a pregnant woman’s home terrorizing and pointing a gun at her stomach while looking for drugs and money.
I find it a contradiction he is now a civil rights martyr yet is guilty of crime, abuse and violence, I get how he died was wrong and the police concerned deserve the full wrath of the law but Floyd being depicted as a symbol of civil rights doesnt seem right to me..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 12, 2020, 11:02:56 am
Floyd was a career criminal who had been convicted for theft, criminal trespassing, aggravated robbery as well as entering a pregnant woman’s home terrorizing and pointing a gun at her stomach while looking for drugs and money.
I find it a contradiction he is now a civil rights martyr yet is guilty of crime, abuse and violence, I get how he died was wrong and the police concerned deserve the full wrath of the law but Floyd being depicted as a symbol of civil rights doesnt seem right to me..
A mate has a son going over to be a rookie punter in the NFL later this year, he was supposed to be there now but his departure was delayed for obvious reasons.

I genuinely fear for him, Floyd's become a universal excuse for lawlessness. My mate's boy is a nearly 200cm x 110kg beach blond who'll stand out like the proverbials on the street, and he's being sent to a rather worn out looking Southern colleague as a starter.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 12, 2020, 11:49:24 am
Floyd was a career criminal who had been convicted for theft, criminal trespassing, aggravated robbery as well as entering a pregnant woman’s home terrorizing and pointing a gun at her stomach while looking for drugs and money.
I find it a contradiction he is now a civil rights martyr yet is guilty of crime, abuse and violence, I get how he died was wrong and the police concerned deserve the full wrath of the law but Floyd being depicted as a symbol of civil rights doesnt seem right to me..
How very dare you EB!
To all the pathetic protesting sheep here in Australia who continue to follow the lead of those imbeciles in the US, the family of Justine Damond says hi.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 12, 2020, 12:13:45 pm
Unless you blokes are saying he got what he deserved, then I suggest you avoid conflating separate issues. The fact that he was a career criminal should not obfuscate the main issues here.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 12, 2020, 01:40:19 pm
How very dare you EB!
To all the pathetic protesting sheep here in Australia who continue to follow the lead of those imbeciles in the US, the family of Justine Damond says hi.

Justine's "murder" didn't exactly incite the same protests ... but they should have.  Pajama dressed, unarmed white women are such a threat.  Minneapolis again  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 12, 2020, 02:00:34 pm
Justine's "murder" didn't exactly incite the same protests ... but they should have.  Pajama dressed, unarmed white women are such a threat.  Minneapolis again  
My point exactly, the officer was African American so I guess thats makes it ok in some peoples eyes. I am embarrassed to call myself Australian when I think about her death now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 12, 2020, 02:02:42 pm
Unless you blokes are saying he got what he deserved, then I suggest you avoid conflating separate issues. The fact that he was a career criminal should not obfuscate the main issues here.
Absolutely not saying that Pauly, that officer should go to jail for a very long time (ie life), just like any murderer. No one (black, white, red, pink, yellow, purple) deserves to be treated like that and murdered. I won't  believe for a second though that the act was racially motivated, just my opinion.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 12, 2020, 02:24:23 pm
My point exactly, the officer was African American so I guess thats makes it ok in some peoples eyes. I am embarrassed to call myself Australian when I think about her death now.

As unfortunate as her death was, I don't think you will find any evidence of sustained brutality in her murder, nor is there any evidence of a sustained history of violence by police against white women in the US. I think her murder was an unfortunate accident, and i don't see any proper connection with George Floyd
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 12, 2020, 02:30:32 pm
Absolutely not saying that Pauly, that officer should go to jail for a very long time (ie life), just like any murderer. No one (black, white, red, pink, yellow, purple) deserves to be treated like that and murdered. I won't  believe for a second though that the act was racially motivated, just my opinion.

The facts and history of the US speak for themselves. It's hard to see any other motivation for such sustained, blatant brutality, unless that cop is a psychopathic nut job who enjoys tormenting all his victims.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 12, 2020, 02:38:17 pm
As unfortunate as her death was, I don't think you will find any evidence of sustained brutality in her murder, nor is there any evidence of a sustained history of violence by police against white women in the US. I think her murder was an unfortunate accident, and i don't see any proper connection with George Floyd
Accident? she was unarmed and gunned down... the murderer got a paltry 12 years.
From memory Somalian Americans protested with banners and thought he should walk free...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 12, 2020, 02:40:58 pm
As unfortunate as her death was, I don't think you will find any evidence of sustained brutality in her murder, nor is there any evidence of a sustained history of violence by police against white women in the US. I think her murder was an unfortunate accident, and i don't see any proper connection with George Floyd

"Unfortunate"??  Not the way I'd put it.  AT ALL !!  And the low life is appealing?  Add 20 years to the sentence
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 12, 2020, 02:44:54 pm
Accident? she was unarmed and gunned down... the murderer got a paltry 12 years.
From memory Somalian Americans protested with banners and thought he should walk free...

If you examine whatever information is publicly available, I think you will find it was a panicked reaction by an inexperienced cop to an unfamiliar situation. I think he fired in panic more than anything else. I do not believe for a second that he would shoot a woman he knew to be no threat.

I understand that there is a contingent of folks on here who favour an Old Testament style, punitive, fire and brimstone approach to law, order and punishment, but that's no excuse to not attempt to take a holistic view of whatever facts are available.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 12, 2020, 03:02:05 pm
The facts and history of the US speak for themselves. It's hard to see any other motivation for such sustained, blatant brutality, unless that cop is a psychopathic nut job who enjoys tormenting all his victims.
It turns out now they may have known each other, that they worked security at a club together years ago where George allegedly did much better than him with the ladies. So yeah, its very likely he is a nut job and enjoys tormenting people, perhaps he was seeking revenge. Personally I think that any human who puts his knee on another humans neck and murders him/her is a nut job. No matter how you look at it, its 1000% unjustifiable, I just don't fully subscribe to the racial motivation thing every time a african american, indigenous, chinese, middle eastern etc. person is murdered in custody or otherwise. We are human beings first and foremost and ALL lives matter. For every George Floyd video, there are as many videos of african americans kicking the living fark out of whites, stomping on there lifeless heads. What do we do about that? I get the persecution and atrocities races (like African Americans and Indigenous Australians) have suffered and I am as appalled as the next bloke about it. What I want to know is when does it end? That is, at what point can we say say racism is gone? What needs to happen before we no longer say "its a race thing" when a non-white person dies in custody? I want no one to die in custody, that's the problem here I think. I want no one to be murdered full stop, what can I do about it?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 12, 2020, 03:10:34 pm
Racism is a huge topic and I would safely assume that it is well outside the remit of a footy forum. Overcoming racism is something that is an individual project, and it is something we all need to work on every single day. It is a lifetime's project. The greatest evil exists within each of us, and self exaltation and the externalisation of evil are scourges on humanity.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 12, 2020, 04:00:32 pm
Racism is a huge topic and I would safely assume that it is well outside the remit of a footy forum. Overcoming racism is something that is an individual project, and it is something we all need to work on every single day. It is a lifetime's project. The greatest evil exists within each of us, and self exaltation and the externalisation of evil are scourges on humanity.
Racism has no place on football forums, football fields, schools, workplaces etc etc etc. Perhaps the problem is we dont discuss it enough. I can only speak for myself but as the son of Italian immigrants, I grew up experiencing racism everyday of my childhood life. I am sure it was insignificant compared to what our nations First People experienced or the African Americans experience. Many people like me learnt (or taught ourselves) to tolerate it and laugh it off, even now. Perhaps that has in fact made the problem worse by not standing firmer against it, that is, calling it out and thus educating the perp.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 12, 2020, 04:19:15 pm
Yes I have a huge problem with the automatic racism label that gets applied whenever two people of different skin colour or ethnicity have a disagreement, or when something untoward happens to a person in custody. It's plainly wrong, and often used as a political tactic by one side or the other. It's become such a default cry it's genuinely devalued the term racist.

I can understand the problems in the USA, where unarmed African Americans have been shot in the back fleeing police at traffic stops. Sure they might have been wanted and doing a runner, but shooting them dead in the back as they flee is hardly a proportional response.

None of that is applicable to here in Australia, and not at all applicable to someone who dies choking on their own vomit in a police cell regardless of genetics, here or other regional countries. Just last week my associates showed me live streams of #BLM protests happening in Jakarta, that's nothing to do with minority politics, in Jakarta #BLM was being used to target Indonesians of Chinese heritage who are a minority.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 12, 2020, 04:20:05 pm
Racism has no place on football forums, football fields, schools, workplaces etc etc etc. Perhaps the problem is we dont discuss it enough. I can only speak for myself but as the son of Italian immigrants, I grew up experiencing racism everyday of my childhood life. I am sure it was insignificant compared to what our nations First People experienced or the African Americans experience. Many people like me learnt (or taught ourselves) to tolerate it and laugh it off, even now. Perhaps that has in fact made the problem worse by not standing firmer against it, that is, calling it out and thus educating the perp.

At the risk of sounding cheesy, the change needs to happen in our hearts, and that means all of us, rich, poor, black, white. And it is not a set and forget scenario. It requires vigilance and attention every day.  And apathy is a major problem in this regard.

Also, racism manifests itself in subtle ways - it's not just about skin colour or strange food or being called names. Chris Hedges does volunteer work in prisons around where he lives in Princeton. He told a story of a black prisoner telling him that he never experienced racism because no one called him the n word. Hedges then described to him the public schools in Princeton for the predominately white middle class - all nicely furnished, well maintained etc. This prisoner grew up in a black neighbourhood, and when Hedges asked him to describe his school, he talked about broken lights, things not working, no replenishing of supplies for the teachers etc. Hedges, who has worked in poor neighbourhoods for decades, simply said, "that's racism."
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 12, 2020, 04:36:00 pm
Two Demons players now to be banned for COVID-19 protocol breaches, Pickett and Spargo.

As unlikely as it is, if any of these norbits test positive they should be suspended for the season, they visit a mate and deliberately roll the dice on a multi-million dollar industry.

It's not good enough! The young kids have no regard for the risk, because they are not in the hazard zone, yet grandparents, infant nieces and nephews are all at increased risk due to teenagers and twenty-somethings ignoring the risks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 12, 2020, 04:45:36 pm
Hedges then described to him the public schools in Princeton for the predominately white middle class - all nicely furnished, well maintained etc. This prisoner grew up in a black neighbourhood, and when Hedges asked him to describe his school, he talked about broken lights, things not working, no replenishing of supplies for the teachers etc. Hedges, who has worked in poor neighbourhoods for decades, simply said, "that's racism."
What part of that is related to race, isn't it basically an argument about wealth, is Hedges saying there are no wealthy African Americans at Princeton, or that there are no Caucasians in the poor schools?

Don't reference ghettos, eruvs or other enclaves, that is equally damning to all sides of the argument.

Apparently privilege is about being white, tell that to all the African American, Indian, Chinese or Hispanic traders who had the business trashed in recent weeks. Race has nothing to do with the majority of America's current problems, it's a society built on greed and capitalism.

It feels like a generalist argument. Perhaps the demise of South Africa leaves America and it's Institutionalised Racism unlike anything else on Earth, yet you apparently wouldn't want to be secondary schoolgirl in Nigeria. No matter what people in other regions and many Americians wish to believe or portray about the rest of the world, America's problems are American and bare little relevance to other regions!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 12, 2020, 05:08:42 pm
What part of that is related to race, isn't it basically an argument about wealth, is Hedges saying there are no wealthy African Americans at Princeton, or that there are no Caucasians in the poor schools?

Don't reference ghettos, eruvs or other enclaves, that is equally damning to all sides of the argument.

Apparently privilege is about being white, tell that to all the African American, Indian, Chinese or Hispanic traders who had the business trashed in recent weeks. Race has nothing to do with the majority of America's current problems, it's a society built on greed and capitalism.

It feels like a generalist argument. Perhaps the demise of South Africa leaves America and it's Institutionalised Racism unlike anything else on Earth, yet you apparently wouldn't want to be secondary schoolgirl in Nigeria. No matter what people in other regions and many Americians wish to believe or portray about the rest of the world, America's problems are American and bare little relevance to other regions!

If you've seen lots of white neighbourhoods, and you've seen lots of black neighbourhoods, as Hedges has, you may be inclined to join the dots and connect race to wealth.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 12, 2020, 05:15:27 pm
Two Demons players now to be banned for COVID-19 protocol breaches, Pickett and Spargo.

As unlikely as it is, if any of these norbits test positive they should be suspended for the season, they visit a mate and deliberately roll the dice on a multi-million dollar industry.

It's not good enough! The young kids have no regard for the risk, because they are not in the hazard zone, yet grandparents, infant nieces and nephews are all at increased risk due to teenagers and twenty-somethings ignoring the risks.

Interesting that the USA now have a second wave of infections with States that have gone back to the norm...22 states have recorded a spike in cases. They just have no idea in America.....the greatest danger to America isnt Russia, Nth korea or China its the dopey American regime and its dopey redneck citizens who cant seem to understand what common sense is...
Agree on those Demon players....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on June 12, 2020, 05:33:13 pm
Two Demons players now to be banned for COVID-19 protocol breaches, Pickett and Spargo.

As unlikely as it is, if any of these norbits test positive they should be suspended for the season, they visit a mate and deliberately roll the dice on a multi-million dollar industry.

It's not good enough! The young kids have no regard for the risk, because they are not in the hazard zone, yet grandparents, infant nieces and nephews are all at increased risk due to teenagers and twenty-somethings ignoring the risks.

Are they playing tomorrow? I know Pickett, at least, was named...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on June 12, 2020, 05:34:21 pm
Interesting that the USA now have a second wave of infections with States that have gone back to the norm...22 states have recorded a spike in cases. They just have no idea in America.....the greatest danger to America isnt Russia, Nth korea or China its the dopey American regime and its dopey redneck citizens who cant seem to understand what common sense is...
Agree on those Demon players....

Not true EB, some States have risen, but marginally.

Most A ok.

Don't buy the MSM BS.

https://rt.live/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on June 12, 2020, 06:12:00 pm
At the risk of sounding cheesy, the change needs to happen in our hearts, and that means all of us, rich, poor, black, white. And it is not a set and forget scenario. It requires vigilance and attention every day.  And apathy is a major problem in this regard.

Also, racism manifests itself in subtle ways - it's not just about skin colour or strange food or being called names. Chris Hedges does volunteer work in prisons around where he lives in Princeton. He told a story of a black prisoner telling him that he never experienced racism because no one called him the n word. Hedges then described to him the public schools in Princeton for the predominately white middle class - all nicely furnished, well maintained etc. This prisoner grew up in a black neighbourhood, and when Hedges asked him to describe his school, he talked about broken lights, things not working, no replenishing of supplies for the teachers etc. Hedges, who has worked in poor neighbourhoods for decades, simply said, "that's racism."

Not at all 'cheesy', Pauly. Not at all. Truth. The truth might sound cheesy and we might be a little shy to advance such observations in such a critical world, but the truth has a strength of its own which is inspiring and terrifying... depending on where you're at.

Change is happening, excruciatingly slowly... but it's happening. Tiny revolution after tiny revolution. The up side of cameras, TV and social media (when operating at their ethical best) is accountability. Exposure. Appalling behaviour is finding fewer and fewer places to hide. But we've a long way to go, and need to remain as vigilant as Rosa Parks back in the mid 50s on that bus... and as much that has changed for African American folk since then, it needs to change as much again. We tend to measure change in terms of our own lifetimes or the ideal of going straight from ignorance to enlightenment... understandable, but a dash naive. We've a lot of paddock to hoe along with plenty of blood, sweat and tears (shout out to David Clayton-Thomas).

Humans have been prejudiced against anyone seen as 'different' since time immemorial. Religion against religion, neighbour against neighbour, tribe against tribe, suburb against suburb, state against state, national against nation, culture against culture and so on, ad infinitum. Sheesh, so many of us are at war within ourselves, FFS. Prejudice is embedded in our hearts... holding hands with fear, well, often it is simply just that - fear. That's why your comment aint cheesy, but we are changing in the right direction with our hoe hitting stumps and mud and other obstacles, but it is happening.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 12, 2020, 09:36:46 pm
Not at all 'cheesy', Pauly. Not at all. Truth. The truth might sound cheesy and we might be a little shy to advance such observations in such a critical world, but the truth has a strength of its own which is inspiring and terrifying... depending on where you're at.

Change is happening, excruciatingly slowly... but it's happening. Tiny revolution after tiny revolution. The up side of cameras, TV and social media (when operating at their ethical best) is accountability. Exposure. Appalling behaviour is finding fewer and fewer places to hide. But we've a long way to go, and need to remain as vigilant as Rosa Parks back in the mid 50s on that bus... and as much that has changed for African American folk since then, it needs to change as much again. We tend to measure change in terms of our own lifetimes or the ideal of going straight from ignorance to enlightenment... understandable, but a dash naive. We've a lot of paddock to hoe along with plenty of blood, sweat and tears (shout out to David Clayton-Thomas).

Humans have been prejudiced against anyone seen as 'different' since time immemorial. Religion against religion, neighbour against neighbour, tribe against tribe, suburb against suburb, state against state, national against nation, culture against culture and so on, ad infinitum. Sheesh, so many of us are at war within ourselves, FFS. Prejudice is embedded in our hearts... holding hands with fear, well, often it is simply just that - fear. That's why your comment aint cheesy, but we are changing in the right direction with our hoe hitting stumps and mud and other obstacles, but it is happening.



I've seen some footage of why they may have taken the actions they did with Floyd.

Not to condone kneeling on a bloke for 8 minutes.  There was clearly a lack of empathy here, nor much care. 

Let's just say he wasn't complying with police instructions and was resisting arrest.   Ever wondered why there are 4 officers to arrest 1 bloke?

All could have been avoided if he just got in the squad car like they were trying to before they pinned him down.

Amazing how we don't hear about that part.  Doesn't fit the agenda.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 12, 2020, 09:58:12 pm
There's a number of reports online that floyd initially resisted being cuffed, but then became compliant. He told the officers he suffered from claustrophobia when they tried to get him into the car. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on June 13, 2020, 09:37:38 am
I've seen some footage of why they may have taken the actions they did with Floyd.

Not to condone kneeling on a bloke for 8 minutes.  There was clearly a lack of empathy here, nor much care. 

Let's just say he wasn't complying with police instructions and was resisting arrest.   Ever wondered why there are 4 officers to arrest 1 bloke?

All could have been avoided if he just got in the squad car like they were trying to before they pinned him down.

Amazing how we don't hear about that part.  Doesn't fit the agenda.


The cop didn't just kneel on the bloke, he did so on his neck... The cop didn't need to engage any empathy, just to use 'reasonable' force and not 'excessive' force - intelligence/policy rather than aggression. I don't care if Floyd was a serial killer or a direct descendant of Christ himself, his death was wrong and should not have happened. And, as it happened, his death was the 100th monkey; tipping point; the final straw; the match that lit the tinderbox ...of overwhelming present day and historic injustice afforded African American's in the US.

Arguments that with Floyd being an alleged crim it somehow justifies or lessens the injustice he received, are dangerous and dumb. (Same kind of reprehensible and just plain stupid logic used by that Neanderthal judge who claimed that raping a prostitute is somehow not nearly as bad as raping a woman who is not a prostitute).

In the words of one of the world's great leaders, Martin Luther King Jnr... 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.'
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 13, 2020, 10:07:54 am
Very nice Baggers. Very nice.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 13, 2020, 10:58:06 am
The cop didn't just kneel on the bloke, he did so on his neck... The cop didn't need to engage any empathy, just to use 'reasonable' force and not 'excessive' force - intelligence/policy rather than aggression. I don't care if Floyd was a serial killer or a direct descendant of Christ himself, his death was wrong and should not have happened. And, as it happened, his death was the 100th monkey; tipping point; the final straw; the match that lit the tinderbox ...of overwhelming present day and historic injustice afforded African American's in the US.

Arguments that with Floyd being an alleged crim it somehow justifies or lessens the injustice he received, are dangerous and dumb. (Same kind of reprehensible and just plain stupid logic used by that Neanderthal judge who claimed that raping a prostitute is somehow not nearly as bad as raping a woman who is not a prostitute).

In the words of one of the world's great leaders, Martin Luther King Jnr... 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.'
Well said, I just wish that in a world we also want to stamp out violence against women and children, which has also been happening for centuries, we (as Australians) afforded a similar level of scrutiny when Justine Damond was murdered in her PJs by one of the very officers whom she actually called.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 13, 2020, 11:22:55 am
Well said, I just wish that in a world we also want to stamp out violence against women and children, which has also been happening for centuries, we (as Australians) afforded a similar level of scrutiny when Justine Damond was murdered in her PJs by one of the very officers whom she actually called.

It's (the gun culture) so ingrained and commonplace in America, it's second nature.  "United States"?  No.  The country almost breeds it.  Just a single episode of "Doomsday Preppers" perpetuates that myth .... I need say no more.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 13, 2020, 02:33:08 pm
If you've seen lots of white neighbourhoods, and you've seen lots of black neighbourhoods, as Hedges has, you may be inclined to join the dots and connect race to wealth.
Perhaps if the observer has selective vision.

There are just as many poor Caucasians in Brooklyn as there are poor African Americans in Harlem, and it's only a 10 min drive apart!

Even worse down south in North or South Carolina, motor homes and high density apartment blocks are 50/50 and still effectively divided based on skin colour to this day, If going to Atlanta on business you can take a look down from an office block elevated walkway or executive balcony to the ground level, you will see alternating groups of Caucasians and African Americans huddled around cooling towers keeping warn in winter. But the media only ever report the downtrodden on one side of this debate, while making inbreed jokes about the other! We don't have to discuss the Appalachians, El Paso or other similar areas either, quickly you see this problem is not as anisotropic as the media make out!

I realise the USA has embedded institutionalised racism, and it varies widely from state to state, but it has a uniform prejudice towards the poor.

In the USA most people that I've encountered believe being poor is your own fault, it's because of something you've done wrong, or God punishing you for being a bad person, an idiot or just plain lazy! That embedded opinion doesn't matter if you are black, white, yellow, brown, pink, orange or green!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 13, 2020, 03:42:50 pm
Perhaps if the observer has selective vision.

There are just as many poor Caucasians in Brooklyn as there are poor African Americans in Harlem, and it's only a 10 min drive apart!

Even worse down south in North or South Carolina, motor homes and high density apartment blocks are 50/50 and still effectively divided based on skin colour to this day, If going to Atlanta on business you can take a look down from an office block elevated walkway or executive balcony to the ground level, you will see alternating groups of Caucasians and African Americans huddled around cooling towers keeping warn in winter. But the media only ever report the downtrodden on one side of this debate, while making inbreed jokes about the other! We don't have to discuss the Appalachians, El Paso or other similar areas either, quickly you see this problem is not as anisotropic as the media make out!

I realise the USA has embedded institutionalised racism, and it varies widely from state to state, but it has a uniform prejudice towards the poor.

In the USA most people that I've encountered believe being poor is your own fault, it's because of something you've done wrong, or God punishing you for being a bad person, an idiot or just plain lazy! That embedded opinion doesn't matter if you are black, white, yellow, brown, pink, orange or green!

You can cut the statistics any way you like - in terms of numbers, whites make up the greatest majority of the US population. Hispanics and blacks have much smaller numbers, yet these two groups make up the biggest numbers of poor people. And I'm sure that if you include prison populations, undocumented workers etc., the numbers would be higher. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 13, 2020, 11:52:05 pm
You can cut the statistics any way you like - in terms of numbers, whites make up the greatest majority of the US population. Hispanics and blacks have much smaller numbers, yet these two groups make up the biggest numbers of poor people. And I'm sure that if you include prison populations, undocumented workers etc., the numbers would be higher. 
True, I understand.

But maybe the dynamic size of any one ghetto has as much to do about town planning, management and social issues as it does how may of each type fit in!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 14, 2020, 08:30:23 am
True, I understand.

But maybe the dynamic size of any one ghetto has as much to do about town planning, management and social issues as it does how may of each type fit in!

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/26/696794821/why-white-school-districts-have-so-much-more-money

https://www.brookings.edu/research/new-evidence-on-school-choice-and-racially-segregated-schools/

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/public-school-funding-and-the-role-of-race/408085/

https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/03/04/why-are-american-public-schools-still-segregated/

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/segregation-school-funding-inequalities-still-punishing-black-latino-students-n837186



There's a fair bit to read there, and if you're so inclined, you can read them at your leisure, and draw your own conclusions. There's plenty more out there as well.

Many things in life are interdependent - it's folly to think you can change one thing and expect big improvements. Race is enmeshed with several other things that would create the problem, but there's no doubt that race is a big part of the problem, probably the biggest.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 14, 2020, 01:11:00 pm
Many things in life are interdependent - it's folly to think you can change one thing and expect big improvements. Race is enmeshed with several other things that would create the problem, but there's no doubt that race is a big part of the problem, probably the biggest.
PaulP, thanks for the links.

FYI, while I'm not commenting on those articles as I haven't yet read them yet, I've worked in places including Arizona and Carolina, commuting to places Wisconsin, Washington and Illinois. At one stage I use to commute between Australia and Arizona on a 4 day cycle, so I've had lots of air miles. My next door neighbour spent almost 15 years living and working in the USA. Between us we've seen a good chunk of life in Joe Average USA and reality is far far away from the bulk of articles published by think tanks or the media. Independence and Freedom of Speech is a myth in the USA, it's the great lie. Be very careful attributing too much to some NY coffee shop or Rhode Island bookworm!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 14, 2020, 01:18:10 pm
Cookie2, thanks for the links.

FYI, while I'm not commenting on those articles as I haven't yet read them yet, I've worked in places including Arizona and Carolina, commuting to places Wisconsin, Washington and Illinois. At one stage I use to commute between Australia and Arizona on a 4 day cycle, so I've had lots of air miles. My next door neighbour spent almost 15 years living and working in the USA. Between us we've seen a good chunk of life in Joe Average USA and reality is far far away from the bulk of articles published by think tanks or the media. Independence and Freedom of Speech is a myth in the USA, it's the great lie.

I'm not really a fan of the "my personal experiences" approach to research and fact finding, unless they form part of a larger, more comprehensive study - the temptation for myopia and confirmation bias is too strong IMO. Studies that take a broader view, including statistics and personal experiences, but know to interpret this information sensibly, are the most valuable IMO.

And whilst I'm not cookie2, I'm flattered that you think I am. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 14, 2020, 01:20:23 pm
I'm not really a fan of the "my personal experiences" approach to research and fact finding, unless they form part of a larger, more comprehensive study - the temptation for myopia and confirmation bias is too strong IMO. Studies that take a broader view, including statistics and personal experiences, but know to interpret this information sensibly, are the most valuable IMO.

And whilst I'm not cookie2, I'm flattered that you think I am.
Well, that applies to many of the authors also, very few of those media or think-tank types go to the areas they write about!

Have I any special insights, probably not, but I did spend a decade working for News Ltd, and continued travelling to those areas after I left News Ltd, so I've seen the perspective from both sides of the media fence, friend and foe.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 14, 2020, 01:35:05 pm
Well, that applies to many of the authors also, very few of those media or think-tank types go to the areas they write about!

Have I any special insights, probably not, but I did spend a decade working for News Ltd, and continued travelling to those areas after I left News Ltd, so I've seen the perspective from both sides of the media fence, friend and foe.

Fair enough. Going back to the original point, Chris Hedges has indeed been to a lot of the US, studied it well, and I think makes a number of valid points as a result.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 16, 2020, 12:12:57 pm
The cop didn't just kneel on the bloke, he did so on his neck... The cop didn't need to engage any empathy, just to use 'reasonable' force and not 'excessive' force - intelligence/policy rather than aggression. I don't care if Floyd was a serial killer or a direct descendant of Christ himself, his death was wrong and should not have happened. And, as it happened, his death was the 100th monkey; tipping point; the final straw; the match that lit the tinderbox ...of overwhelming present day and historic injustice afforded African American's in the US.

Arguments that with Floyd being an alleged crim it somehow justifies or lessens the injustice he received, are dangerous and dumb. (Same kind of reprehensible and just plain stupid logic used by that Neanderthal judge who claimed that raping a prostitute is somehow not nearly as bad as raping a woman who is not a prostitute).

In the words of one of the world's great leaders, Martin Luther King Jnr... 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.'

Again, I think you ignored too much of what I have written, and focussed on one part.

I didnt condone kneeling on him.

Excessive force is also not condoned.

The question is why was it used?  Was it because he was being complicit with Police and they decided to take action?

Or was it because he was resisting arrest?

Dont sit there and fit the narrative to your own viewpoint.  Look at what happened.  There is more than one way to avoid this outcome, and it isn't solely by telling police not to kneel on a bloke for 8 mins, and not use excessive force and be nice to a suspected perpetrator.

James Gargasoulas is the outcome when police dont take action.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on June 16, 2020, 01:41:31 pm
James Gargasoulas is the outcome when police dont take action.

His life doesn't matter, death by knee would be appropriate for him.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 16, 2020, 04:51:19 pm
Again, I think you ignored too much of what I have written, and focussed on one part.

I didnt condone kneeling on him.

Excessive force is also not condoned.

The question is why was it used?  Was it because he was being complicit with Police and they decided to take action?

Or was it because he was resisting arrest?

Dont sit there and fit the narrative to your own viewpoint.  Look at what happened.  There is more than one way to avoid this outcome, and it isn't solely by telling police not to kneel on a bloke for 8 mins, and not use excessive force and be nice to a suspected perpetrator.

James Gargasoulas is the outcome when police dont take action.
Agree, Floyd was a violent criminal, not an alleged criminal, doesnt mean you can kneel on his neck with excessive force and kill him either
but Police have to use controlled force at times to protect themselves and restrain offenders. This policeman went overboard with force and like I said previously deserves the full wrath of the law but the next policeman and the one after him etc etc are entitled to used controlled force where necessary IMO to do their job and restrain violent aggressive individuals whether they be white, black, yellow or any other colour.
That policeman is a bad apple who needs to be culled from the force and jailed but without the good coppers you wont have much of a society.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on June 16, 2020, 05:33:16 pm
Agree, Floyd was a violent criminal, not an alleged criminal, doesnt mean you can kneel on his neck with excessive force and kill him either
but Police have to use controlled force at times to protect themselves and restrain offenders. This policeman went overboard with force and like I said previously deserves the full wrath of the law but the next policeman and the one after him etc etc are entitled to used controlled force where necessary IMO to do their job and restrain violent aggressive individuals whether they be white, black, yellow or any other colour.
That policeman is a bad apple who needs to be culled from the force and jailed but without the good coppers you wont have much of a society.....

I'm hearing that there is widespread disillusionment in a number of police forces in the US with a wave of resignations. Not sure where that may lead but there must be plenty of good coppers who are confused by the mixed messages seemingly coming from their political bosses?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 16, 2020, 09:14:46 pm
I'm hearing that there is widespread disillusionment in a number of police forces in the US with a wave of resignations. Not sure where that may lead but there must be plenty of good coppers who are confused by the mixed messages seemingly coming from their political bosses?
I think it's called anarchy!

If you state that to many middle Americans they probably think you're going to have SAMCRO in charge!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 17, 2020, 09:55:53 am
I'm hearing that there is widespread disillusionment in a number of police forces in the US with a wave of resignations. Not sure where that may lead but there must be plenty of good coppers who are confused by the mixed messages seemingly coming from their political bosses?

I wouldnt want to be a police officer right now.

Irrespective of whether or not I thought I was good or bad, these guys put their lives on the line every time they wear the badge and go out in public.  Cop killings occur regularly in the states.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/05/08/the-number-of-u-s-police-officers-killed-in-the-line-of-duty-increased-last-year-infographic/#7085d1511894

Once again, when it comes to Police and matters with respect to Floyd, we over simplify when we see a police officer using excessive force.  Its not about condoning it either, but understanding why it can and will occur.  PTSD is a real thing and I for one am surprised that more is not being discussed.

I wonder what the footage of the cameras in the cop cars and on the police officers looks like and not just the publically viewed footage.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 17, 2020, 10:45:56 am
My BIL is a LT CDR with the San Diego police force and very much treats cops from other jurisdictions / states on the merits of their actions, not the automatic defence of a "brother in arms".  Fascinating guy to talk to. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 18, 2020, 03:45:57 pm
If they think they can put me in a about the same amount of space as my old blue heelers kennel, charge me a premium price, then offer me feck all food or drink for 9 to 14 hrs while on the way to the US or UK, they have another thing coming!

Quote
Now, several worldwide airlines are taking things a step further by axing the availability of alcoholic beverages aboard their flights. Many carriers have already narrowed their drink options to water (usually individual bottles) and are supplying sealed, prepackaged snacks or meals in place of conducting their regular meal service.
 
Feck that, I'm outta here, they can stick flying up the high altitude ar5e!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 18, 2020, 05:13:31 pm
If they think they can put me in a about the same amount of space as my old blue heelers kennel, charge me a premium price, then offer me feck all food or drink for 9 to 14 hrs while on the way to the US or UK, they have another thing coming!
 
Feck that, I'm outta here, they can stick flying up the high altitude ar5e!

Believe me, they'll do it LP.  Reduced load factors demands catering company supply cutbacks and a lot more than that until the industry recovers.  Full economy seat layouts as the primer.  Luggage (cabin / hold) limits reduced ... anything to slash standing charges be they lease, insurance or otherwise.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 19, 2020, 11:28:33 am
Believe me, they'll do it LP.  Reduced load factors demands catering company supply cutbacks and a lot more than that until the industry recovers.  Full economy seat layouts as the primer.  Luggage (cabin / hold) limits reduced ... anything to slash standing charges be they lease, insurance or otherwise.
Well, then I think they are cooked Capcom.

The younguns are already avoiding flying like the plague, they thought plane emissions were a blight on the planet even before it officially became a plague, and most do everything via a video. Us oldies, the guys who forked out for Business on international flights, are not going to put ourselves through hell just to keep the airlines in business.

So I suppose stick a fork in them, they are done except for holiday makers!

Thinking otherwise is stupidity, it's like the Cruise lines thinking they can alleviate concerns with a few wet wipes!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 19, 2020, 12:52:44 pm
As long as Branson loses his investment, I'm good with it.   
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 19, 2020, 01:26:28 pm
As long as Branson loses his investment, I'm good with it.
I realise the motivation for that comment, and I can understand it, but I'm not sure it makes sense to wish for an outcome that hurts us all.

Behind the scenes the politicians are very very grim faced at the moment, regardless of what front they apply for the cameras. They are basically trying to talk up the economy, but doing so while knowing the worst is yet to come. The problem seems to be that economics is more based on black magic, one lie to rule them all, far more smoke and mirrors than sound theory.

Sun Tzu in the Art of War states that you should burn your own farm to hurt your opponent, but I'm not sure that really ever makes sense. I fear that is what China is up to right now, smash the global markets to become the last standing!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 19, 2020, 02:22:11 pm
Black lives do matter and so do white lives, this video shows how out of control things have become. We all agree their is no place for racism but it doesnt mean open season on white folk either.
The Police didnt charge the offenders and I reckon you can join the dots why...do we really want Australia being like the USA?

https://www.tr.news/violent-attack-melbourne/?fbclid=IwAR1bjVJFes0Y0JFNllUgOH-C2fTNwlHIYME2OQZnUGOjW_pSoqU75doJPMc 

PS...Been told since the girl concerned is alleged to be no saint either, but this attack had nothing to do with any previous activities
and was unprovoked.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 19, 2020, 05:06:12 pm
Black lives do matter and so do white lives, this video shows how out of control things have become. We all agree their is no place for racism but it doesnt mean open season on white folk either.
The Police didnt charge the offenders and I reckon you can join the dots why...do we really want Australia being like the USA?

https://www.tr.news/violent-attack-melbourne/?fbclid=IwAR1bjVJFes0Y0JFNllUgOH-C2fTNwlHIYME2OQZnUGOjW_pSoqU75doJPMc

Its a sad state of affairs.

Remember what the dream was?

To judge a person not by the colour of their skin but by the depth of their character?

No one would dare stand up to these thugs.  Odds are it would be video'd and then we would hear about white on black crime again with this first bit edited out.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 19, 2020, 05:49:28 pm
Black lives do matter and so do white lives, this video shows how out of control things have become. We all agree their is no place for racism but it doesnt mean open season on white folk either.
The Police didnt charge the offenders and I reckon you can join the dots why...do we really want Australia being like the USA?

https://www.tr.news/violent-attack-melbourne/?fbclid=IwAR1bjVJFes0Y0JFNllUgOH-C2fTNwlHIYME2OQZnUGOjW_pSoqU75doJPMc

I would hospitalise every last one of them.  And not for minor cuts and abrasions either.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 19, 2020, 06:29:45 pm
I would hospitalise every last one of them.  And not for minor cuts and abrasions either.


You cant say that, all the do-gooders and PC Brigade will get up set. The kids need to be hugged rehabilitated into becoming good law abiding citizens. Me personally? I'm for your kind of justice, plus GST. And as for the dogs who just stood around and watched and didnt intervene or help? They need the same treatment with interest.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on June 19, 2020, 09:37:47 pm
Black lives do matter and so do white lives, this video shows how out of control things have become. We all agree their is no place for racism but it doesnt mean open season on white folk either.
The Police didnt charge the offenders and I reckon you can join the dots why...do we really want Australia being like the USA?

https://www.tr.news/violent-attack-melbourne/?fbclid=IwAR1bjVJFes0Y0JFNllUgOH-C2fTNwlHIYME2OQZnUGOjW_pSoqU75doJPMc 

PS...Been told since the girl concerned is alleged to be no saint either, but this attack had nothing to do with any previous activities
and was unprovoked.




Sheesh, this is horrible but not about racism. It's about we humans. So many of us, when confronted by a violent injustice, resort to more violence to resolve the problem. I feel the same, but retaliation only breeds more resentment... then more violence. And so the cycle of stupidity and violence continues.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 19, 2020, 09:45:46 pm
Sheesh, this is horrible but not about racism. It's about we humans. So many of us, when confronted by a violent injustice, resort to more violence to resolve the problem. I feel the same, but retaliation only breeds more resentment... then more violence. And so the cycle of stupidity and violence continues.

Those girls abusing the girl sitting down weren't going to let up.

I agree we humans need to be better but this mode of thinking doesnt match historical human sentiment. 

Veni vidi vici
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 19, 2020, 10:16:10 pm
Apparently we didnt see the worst of it in the video, they allegedly dragged her off the bench and stomped on her head repeatedly. She is very lucky. Imagine the riots if the perps were white and the assault victim was African or Indigenous Australian ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 20, 2020, 08:04:06 am
I think you blokes are missing the point. The incidents that lead to rioting and protests were triggers. Individual incidents are not really the issue here. Nobody has ever suggested that people of colour are holier than thou, or that they're not capable of hate crimes. But the numbers don't lie - people of colour are victims a lot more than they are victimisers.

You don't measure justice by the level of outrage. The politics of resentment is a dead end.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 20, 2020, 08:42:53 am
I think you blokes are missing the point. The incidents that lead to rioting and protests were triggers. Individual incidents are not really the issue here. Nobody has ever suggested that people of colour are holier than thou, or that they're not capable of hate crimes. But the numbers don't lie - people of colour are victims a lot more than they are victimisers.

You don't measure justice by the level of outrage. The politics of resentment is a dead end.

Got some statistics to back that up Paul?

I'd wager it's wrong.  Just a hunch.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 20, 2020, 08:43:28 am
And individual incidents are entirely the point.  Hence why one mans death starked a 7 day looting spray.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 20, 2020, 10:00:17 am
Got some statistics to back that up Paul?

I'd wager it's wrong.  Just a hunch.


Nah, just made it up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States

"Racially motivated hate crime
The federal government publishes a list annually of Hate Crime Statistics, 2009.[61] Also published by the federal government is the Known Offender's Race by Bias Motivation, 2009.[62] According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Uniform Crime Report database, in 2010 58.6% of reported hate crime offenders were white, 18.4% of offenders were black, 8.9% were of individuals of multiple races and 1% of offenders were indigenous Americans (Hispanics were not separately delineated).[63] The report also reveals that 48% of all hate crime offenders were motivated by the victim's race, while 18% were based on the victim's religion, and another 18% were based on the victim's sexual orientation.[64] The report states that among hate crime offenses motivated by race, 70% were composed of anti-black bias, while 17.7% were of anti-white bias, and 5% were of anti-Asian or Pacific Islander bias."
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 20, 2020, 10:03:30 am
And individual incidents are entirely the point.  Hence why one mans death starked a 7 day looting spree.

I know, and said as much in my previous post. In historical terms, this has been a problem for centuries. The latest individual incident is simply the trigger for protesting against centuries of racial hatred. It could have been an incident in the future that triggered the protests, or it could have been an earlier incident.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on June 20, 2020, 11:08:02 am

Nah, just made it up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States

"Racially motivated hate crime
The federal government publishes a list annually of Hate Crime Statistics, 2009.[61] Also published by the federal government is the Known Offender's Race by Bias Motivation, 2009.[62] According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Uniform Crime Report database, in 2010 58.6% of reported hate crime offenders were white, 18.4% of offenders were black, 8.9% were of individuals of multiple races and 1% of offenders were indigenous Americans (Hispanics were not separately delineated).[63] The report also reveals that 48% of all hate crime offenders were motivated by the victim's race, while 18% were based on the victim's religion, and another 18% were based on the victim's sexual orientation.[64] The report states that among hate crime offenses motivated by race, 70% were composed of anti-black bias, while 17.7% were of anti-white bias, and 5% were of anti-Asian or Pacific Islander bias."


What a sad indictment on we humans. Difference is so frightening to too many... with so many unhealthy reactions. The blue eye brown eye exercise by Jane Elliott decades ago clearly showed how quickly we go to judgement and condemnation based on colour!!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 20, 2020, 11:25:32 am

Nah, just made it up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States

"Racially motivated hate crime
The federal government publishes a list annually of Hate Crime Statistics, 2009.[61] Also published by the federal government is the Known Offender's Race by Bias Motivation, 2009.[62] According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Uniform Crime Report database, in 2010 58.6% of reported hate crime offenders were white, 18.4% of offenders were black, 8.9% were of individuals of multiple races and 1% of offenders were indigenous Americans (Hispanics were not separately delineated).[63] The report also reveals that 48% of all hate crime offenders were motivated by the victim's race, while 18% were based on the victim's religion, and another 18% were based on the victim's sexual orientation.[64] The report states that among hate crime offenses motivated by race, 70% were composed of anti-black bias, while 17.7% were of anti-white bias, and 5% were of anti-Asian or Pacific Islander bias."


Key words.  Reported hate crimes.

My assertion is that hate crime against white people doesnt exist.

Right?  Or they're just being taken advantage of.

Spare me.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3.xls

I call BS.  Ive had a knife held to me once.  I'll give you a clue.  Not a white person. Happened on the number 75 tram heading home from the city.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on June 20, 2020, 11:29:35 am
@Thryleon

Reported hate crimes.

How are these crimes defined and who defines them?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 20, 2020, 11:32:27 am
Exactly cookie.  Only white people are racist these days.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 20, 2020, 11:34:55 am
Key words.  Reported hate crimes.

My assertion is that hate crime against white people doesnt exist.

Right?  Or they're just being taken advantage of.

Spare me.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3.xls

I call BS.  Ive had a knife held to me once.  I'll give you a clue.  Not a white person. Happened on the number 75 tram heading home from the city.

Those figures are for homicide, not crime in general.

You cannot use your personal experience to magically explain away global, historical trends.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 20, 2020, 11:35:46 am
Exactly cookie.  Only white people are racist these days.

That's nonsense and you know it. Like I said, the politics of resentment.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 20, 2020, 11:37:01 am
https://www.prb.org/americasracialandethnicminorities/

So let me put it to you this way.  That 2016 table is being explained away when black people are a minority?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 20, 2020, 11:40:10 am
Fwiw that table shows that white on white homicide is 2000+

White on black homicide 243.

Black on white. 533.

Black on black 2547.

For a minority those numbers prove your assertion a biased perspective and you know it.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 20, 2020, 11:40:39 am
https://www.prb.org/americasracialandethnicminorities/

So let me put it to you this way.  That 2016 table is being explained away when black people are a minority?

Dude, seriously. I know blacks are a minority, and please focus on the original discussion. The majority of hate crimes are perpetrated by whites. This is fact.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 20, 2020, 11:47:16 am
I think you blokes are missing the point. The incidents that lead to rioting and protests were triggers. Individual incidents are not really the issue here. Nobody has ever suggested that people of colour are holier than thou, or that they're not capable of hate crimes. But the numbers don't lie - people of colour are victims a lot more than they are victimisers.

You don't measure justice by the level of outrage. The politics of resentment is a dead end.

You said i was missing the point.

Hate crimes are a biased statistic.  They explain away black on white crime if there isnt a political motivation and they'd do the same vice versa.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 20, 2020, 11:58:31 am
You said i was missing the point.

Hate crimes are a biased statistic.  They explain away black on white crime if there isnt a political motivation and they'd do the same vice versa.

No, hate crimes are a legitimate and officially recognised form of crime. You can't just wash away the facts that don't suit your argument.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 20, 2020, 12:11:44 pm
I feel this debate covers two areas that are very loosely defined, both have boundaries that are highly malleable subject to a political or philosophical position!

I remember being part of a university debate about aliens, of course whoever gets to speak first gets to define the debate, and we defined alien in a non-classical way. This tactic is used widely in the media, social or professional, making use of ambiguity to influence opinion without clearly defining the frame of reference. It results in anarchy, and in my opinion outside of a competitive debating framework it is an invalid tactic to frame any political or social discussion.

The biggest problem in social media is that perspectives are not easily or clearly communicated, and there is no will to fix it, because it's built on a the premise that the poster's has an opinion that is valid and correct in their own frame of reference.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 20, 2020, 04:52:18 pm
No, hate crimes are a legitimate and officially recognised form of crime. You can't just wash away the facts that don't suit your argument.


I've joined this debate late, but has anyone pointed out that the sheer fact that 'hate crimes' exist, as in a specific definition in itself, is part of the racism problem?

If people are all supposed to be equal (in reality we appear a long way off) the courts highlighting our 'differences' perpetuates the exact thing its trying to stop.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 20, 2020, 05:09:49 pm
I've joined this debate late, but has anyone pointed out that the sheer fact that 'hate crimes' exist, as in a specific definition in itself, is part of the racism problem?

If people are all supposed to be equal (in reality we appear a long way off) the courts highlighting our 'differences' perpetuates the exact thing its trying to stop.
Are the underlying motives really about equality?

So many profit from this, I'm not asserting all or most, but many are not motivated by anything other than money, power or fame(Some may say infamy). They may be the minority, but that minority seems very very damaging, as damaging to the wider community as the anti-vaxers, environmental extremists and social anarchists.

If equality is the genuine outcome and desire, perhaps the first thing that needs to happen is remove financial benefits of being a victim.

Not just victims, but lawyers, bloggers, media and politicians.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 20, 2020, 06:40:44 pm
Are the underlying motives really about equality?
No, but they should be.

....and thats the whole point. USA are set up the way they want to be set up, with 'legal slavery'.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 23, 2020, 11:51:44 pm
Why would anyone take seriously anything said by the fascist, woman beating askwipe Yemini?

https://thebrag.com/avi-yemini-charged-assaulting-ex-wife/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on June 24, 2020, 08:30:47 am
Why would anyone take seriously anything said by the fascist, woman beating askwipe Yemini?

https://thebrag.com/avi-yemini-charged-assaulting-ex-wife/


Let me add a little, David... the words cowardly sack of human refuse come to mind also. The tragedy is that the trauma his ex has endured will possibly stay with her for a long time, negatively impacting her quality of life. Yet slime boy (most likely also a narcissist) will scoot about guilt free and justifying his despicable behaviour.

Perhaps, like you, males like this pr1ck make my blood boil.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 24, 2020, 10:46:09 am
 
Let me add a little, David... the words cowardly sack of human refuse come to mind also. The tragedy is that the trauma his ex has endured will possibly stay with her for a long time, negatively impacting her quality of life. Yet slime boy (most likely also a narcissist) will scoot about guilt free and justifying his despicable behaviour.

Perhaps, like you, males like this pr1ck make my blood boil.

The attack on the young girl by the gang of women was appalling (I wish I had been there  >:(  ) but it was no worse than Yemini’s low act.  I guess we can add hypocrite to his CV.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 24, 2020, 11:37:49 am

The attack on the young girl by the gang of women was appalling (I wish I had been there  >:(  ) but it was no worse than Yemini’s low act.  I guess we can add hypocrite to his CV.
 I suppose you then end up debating what is real and what isn't, when in reality both events are probably very real!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 24, 2020, 01:21:43 pm
re: Yemini...dont know anything about him and that video sent by a friend was the first time I had seen any of his work.
I posted the video of the girl being bashed for the content not for Yemini's views, he obviously after reading some of his work
has just used the video to push his right wing agendas and he seems a professional agitator who rocks up to events and needles
folk for a response. He was also wrong about the police ignoring the video, we have some police connections  and I was assured the matter was/is been investigated and charges may be pending. Any minor attending a hospital with those sort of injuries will have the medical staff making a report to the police who are duty bound to follow it up.
As I suggested my point of posting the video was about not having Australia being turned into some mini version of the USA where gang fights and thuggery from any racial group be it white, black or any other colour become the norm and go unpunished.
My daughter lives in the Brimbank area where two stabbings have taken place in the last month or two....gangs are running amok out there and Daniel Andrews couldnt care less. Virtually no police assistance after 6pm in that area as the closest police station closes at 5pm and you are relying on a over worked police system that takes 30mins to get officers to your home.
Think its the Delahey shops close by where gangs of up to 20 kids run through the supermarket, grab what they like then run out,
the staff cant stop them and the police arrive too late.
Its like being in the USA or South Africa out in the west in Melbourne and thats not what living in Aus is all about......
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 24, 2020, 06:53:31 pm
The police response to the Brimbank stabbing has been very strong EB 🤔

My brother and I were stabbed way back when I was 14.  It made the headlines because he was a cop but it was forgotten the next day.  No riots, no demos, no YouTube, no outraged shockjocks!

I feel cheated 😉
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on June 24, 2020, 06:56:04 pm
Careful EB,  you might be labelled with the R word for mentioning a minority cultural group involved in "issues".
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 24, 2020, 08:02:41 pm
The police response to the Brimbank stabbing has been very strong EB 🤔

My brother and I were stabbed way back when I was 14.  It made the headlines because he was a cop but it was forgotten the next day.  No riots, no demos, no YouTube, no outraged shockjocks!

I feel cheated 😉
Very sad tale about you and your brother DJ..that's a terrible memory.
Unfortunately the problem is out west in that Brimbank, Caroline Springs area u need a stabbing or something similar to get a decent response.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 24, 2020, 08:16:16 pm
Careful EB,  you might be labelled with the R word for mentioning a minority cultural group involved in "issues".
Just telling it like it is Prof, security cameras, security shutters and two German Shepherd's later that's life out in that area for my daughter. They had one shutter and the garage door attacked by baseball bat wielding thugs who were trying to steal cars.








 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 24, 2020, 08:46:02 pm
The world's most liveable city .... what a 'effin joke
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 24, 2020, 09:16:12 pm
Just telling it like it is Prof, security cameras, security shutters and two German Shepherd's later that's life out in that area for my daughter. They had one shutter and the garage door attacked by baseball bat wielding thugs who were trying to steal cars.








 

FMD thats just wrong EB. What the fark is wrong with people?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 24, 2020, 09:30:54 pm
The world's most liveable city .... what a 'effin joke
Many years ago, we had youth running amok in my street and a park nearby. I tolerated it until one night, they were throwing lit dunny rolls onto rooves, mine included. I saw red, went outside cut off axe handle in hand but fortunately for everyone, they had bolted. I called the police who came immediately to patrol the area. I wrote to the then local member which was Martin Ferguson. To his credit, he wrote back to me in days telling me he had contact the local police sergeants and asked them to sort it out, which they duly did. Turns out there was an underage night club that had opened up and they would run amok after it. It got closed down, problem solved. These days, touch wood, my area hasnt experienced the the gang issues some have, but its not to say we wont. The level of violence used is the scary bit.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 24, 2020, 09:34:31 pm
The world's most liveable city .... what a 'effin joke

You dont think people get stabbed anywhere else?  Its the most liveable because these incidents occur not too frequently and we have everything we do.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 25, 2020, 01:12:46 pm
I had a debate with a couple of people today, one from Singapore and the other Taiwan. They said Western Governments missed a trick in dealing with COVID-19 because of the litigious nature of Western Society.

It this;

Both locations overtly signalled attempts to treat and disinfect COVID-19, by having people is white PPE garments roam streets fogging the neighbourhood, with stuff it seems that was mostly useless for the disinfecting or treating COVID-19.

But the act of fogging sent an unambiguous and clear message to all residents that the situation was serious and it changed peoples behaviour. It's a tactic that has since been repeated in Italy, Spain and several other locations where authorities struggled with poor social behaviour. But you won't see it here, in the USA or the UK because the predatory lawyers destroy it's economic and placebic benefit!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 25, 2020, 05:54:24 pm
Some interesting development in the Bubba Wallace (Nascar Driver) noose in the garage story. FBI investigators found the garage door pull string (with a noose fashioned on the end of it) has been there for a year.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 25, 2020, 06:51:52 pm
You dont think people get stabbed anywhere else?  Its the most liveable because these incidents occur not too frequently and we have everything we do.
A lot of stuff doesnt get reported because the type of crime and the numbers would shock people who live in a bubble in their nice comfy suburbs.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 25, 2020, 08:34:36 pm
A lot of stuff doesnt get reported because the type of crime and the numbers would shock people who live in a bubble in their nice comfy suburbs.

I'm well aware of the variety of crime that goes on around Melbourne.

You won't find too many cities where nothing happens.  It's the most liveable because of many factors and having relatively low levels of crime is just one of them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 01, 2020, 11:29:23 pm
poor Ed.

https://www.facebook.com/FootyonNine/videos/vb.109246229094084/2918829124882000/?type=2&theater
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 02, 2020, 08:29:59 am
poor Ed.

https://www.facebook.com/FootyonNine/videos/vb.109246229094084/2918829124882000/?type=2&theater
I feel for Sidebottom abit, he has never come across as a DH so I'll grant him this mistake. Got hammered, couldnt handle it, now copping his medicine (refused to appeal). I do like how Lloyd stuck it to him (more than once)about comments made a few weeks ago and Lloyd told him then it would happen again. This is the difficulty of being a President and in the media.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on July 02, 2020, 11:43:16 am
Just a bit confused...
How can players, officials etc  who live in some of the 'hotspots' just  move to alternate accommodation in non-hotspot suburbs and then be free to travel?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 02, 2020, 02:29:02 pm
Just a bit confused...
How can players, officials etc  who live in some of the 'hotspots' just  move to alternate accommodation in non-hotspot suburbs and then be free to travel?

AFL/clubs booking hotels and air bnbs for them. Its because the knuckle heads in NSW, QLD and WA wont let them in to play footy (ie work)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: rocky on July 02, 2020, 02:55:43 pm
AFL/clubs booking hotels and air bnbs for them. Its because the knuckle heads in NSW, QLD and WA wont let them in to play footy (ie work)
But aren't we all in this together??? Pfffft. Makes me sick. The rest of the country is treating us like lepers and the incompetence of our politicians will be sending many people to the wall (and worse)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on July 02, 2020, 03:42:00 pm
Leave the right and wrongs of the situation out of it.

I still don't understand how by moving across town to a non-hotspot makes it Ok to travel.
Your home address will still show up as a hotspot  when you try to enter another state.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 02, 2020, 03:58:18 pm
AFL/clubs booking hotels and air bnbs for them. Its because the knuckle heads in NSW, QLD and WA wont let them in to play footy (ie work)
Perhaps the mistake is thinking this has everything to do with COVID-19, and nothing much to do with politics or business!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 02, 2020, 05:09:10 pm
Dude, seriously. I know blacks are a minority, and please focus on the original discussion. The majority of hate crimes are perpetrated by whites. This is fact.


Agree.

If someone asked me for as many examples I could think of, of groups that have or do perpetrate hate crimes I would think, immediately, of the KKK, Nazis and white supremacists. Then I would think of fundamentalist ********** (insert any organised religion or fundamentalist political ideology).

Too often hatred from whites against folks of colour is based on, 'we're the rulers of this world and we will do anything to remind you of 'that/your place' in the world.

Personally, I also see hatred as a result of fear, ignorance, upbringing and poor or perverted education which only feeds our deeper unconscious 'shadow' as noted by the deepest of thinkers in our history - Jung, Nietszche, Kaufman, Perls and others. But that's a massive -- and very confronting conversation -- for another time. (In other words, racism, xenophobia, Metathesiophobia and so on are symptoms of something far deeper within us all... oooo, oooo.... cue spooky music).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 02, 2020, 06:04:05 pm
Agree.

If someone asked me for as many examples I could think of, of groups that have or do perpetrate hate crimes I would think, immediately, of the KKK, Nazis and white supremacists. Then I would think of fundamentalist ********** (insert any organised religion or fundamentalist political ideology).

Too often hatred from whites against folks of colour is based on, 'we're the rulers of this world and we will do anything to remind you of 'that/your place' in the world.

Personally, I also see hatred as a result of fear, ignorance, upbringing and poor or perverted education which only feeds our deeper unconscious 'shadow' as noted by the deepest of thinkers in our history - Jung, Nietszche, Kaufman, Perls and others. But that's a massive -- and very confronting conversation -- for another time. (In other words, racism, xenophobia, Metathesiophobia and so on are symptoms of something far deeper within us all... oooo, oooo.... cue spooky music).

The greatest evil exists within each of us. If you've read books like Ordinary Men, or listened to war correspondents like Chris Hedges, you will see time and time again that the line between victim and victimiser is razor thin, and most people can become the latter with very little prodding.

I don't believe that people of colour, indigenous people etc., are less racist than whites, and when I say that, I mean they have the potential to be just as bad. The real problem as I see it is power, and when one race has dominance, they will tend to subjugate minorities for their own benefit. As I've said elsewhere, racism is not just about calling someone a name - it can operate in extremely subtle ways. Power ties in with other aspects which are well beyond what can be discussed here.

None of that should in any way be used to deny historical fact. Far too many genocides, oppression etc. has been perpetrated by white Europeans against minorities and people of colour.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 02, 2020, 06:31:57 pm
The greatest evil exists within each of us. If you've read books like Ordinary Men, or listened to war correspondents like Chris Hedges, you will see time and time again that the line between victim and victimiser is razor thin, and most people can become the latter with very little prodding.

I don't believe that people of colour, indigenous people etc., are less racist than whites, and when I say that, I mean they have the potential to be just as bad. The real problem as I see it is power, and when one race has dominance, they will tend to subjugate minorities for their own benefit. As I've said elsewhere, racism is not just about calling someone a name - it can operate in extremely subtle ways. Power ties in with other aspects which are well beyond what can be discussed here.

None of that should in any way be used to deny historical fact. Far too many genocides, oppression etc. has been perpetrated by white Europeans against minorities and people of colour.
Im scared to even say much on the topic these days as the opinions are all a one way street. However, from the Herald Sun today about Winmar suing Newman, Scott and Sheehan over comments they made on their podcast about his famous jumper lifting all those years ago. Quoted from HS:

An outraged Winmar told the Herald Sun the trio had painted him as a liar and that he was taking a stand.
“I know what I said. I am not a liar. These white fellas are tarnishing my legacy.”

Really? Just imagine the outrage if one the three called him a black fella. I'll probably be labelled a racist for bringing this up. As for tarnishing his reputation, Nicky does a fair job of it himself beating up taxi drivers for asking him to prepay a fare. Probably shouldnt bring that up either.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 02, 2020, 06:54:41 pm
Im scared to even say much on the topic these days as the opinions are all a one way street. However, from the Herald Sun today about Winmar suing Newman, Scott and Sheehan over comments they made on their podcast about his famous jumper lifting all those years ago. Quoted from HS:

An outraged Winmar told the Herald Sun the trio had painted him as a liar and that he was taking a stand.
“I know what I said. I am not a liar. These white fellas are tarnishing my legacy.”

Really? Just imagine the outrage if one the three called him a black fella. I'll probably be labelled a racist for bringing this up. As for tarnishing his reputation, Nicky does a fair job of it himself beating up taxi drivers for asking him to prepay a fare. Probably shouldnt bring that up either.

One problem is that such outlier examples of poor behaviour by indigenous folks / people of colour are used as a leveraging device to suggest that because they can also behave like ar$ewipes, then somehow we're not so bad. This not only denies historical fact, it also denies a web of factors (social, economic, historical) that taken together create a harsher reality for them than for whites. And the other big problem is that it makes it much harder for non whites to make any kind of real progress.

Sorry, but I really don't have any interest in whites crying foul over individual indiscretions, when there are centuries of entrenched, systemic racism and oppression by whites that need to be resolved first. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 02, 2020, 07:02:29 pm
Agree.

If someone asked me for as many examples I could think of, of groups that have or do perpetrate hate crimes I would think, immediately, of the KKK, Nazis and white supremacists. Then I would think of fundamentalist ********** (insert any organised religion or fundamentalist political ideology).

Too often hatred from whites against folks of colour is based on, 'we're the rulers of this world and we will do anything to remind you of 'that/your place' in the world.

Personally, I also see hatred as a result of fear, ignorance, upbringing and poor or perverted education which only feeds our deeper unconscious 'shadow' as noted by the deepest of thinkers in our history - Jung, Nietszche, Kaufman, Perls and others. But that's a massive -- and very confronting conversation -- for another time. (In other words, racism, xenophobia, Metathesiophobia and so on are symptoms of something far deeper within us all... oooo, oooo.... cue spooky music).

See we all have different life experiences.

If someone told me to provide examples of hate crimes, it's thugs of the same ethnic persuasion beating up on innocent kids and being in a gang.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 03, 2020, 10:01:58 am
Sorry, but I really don't have any interest in whites crying foul over individual indiscretions, when there are centuries of entrenched, systemic racism and oppression by whites that need to be resolved first. 

Have to disagree with that comment, Pauly.

Injustice perpetrated upon anyone, yellow, brown, red, white, purple... doesn't matter, it's always equally unfair and wrong. To have no interest in whites complaining about an injustice because they're white and they've a history of mistreatment is not reason to treat their hurt with any less compassion than anyone else. Actually sounds like just another form of prejudice to do so. We cannot tar the entire white race with the same brush based on the sins of the past. Important to remember that many great and heroic white peoples have fought for and alongside folks of colour, as there have been many great and heroic folks of colour and who've fought with white folks against a tyranny of injustice.

Not a good idea to be angry with all whites because of groups and individual whites who've perpetrated appalling acts upon coloured/indigenous folks. All races have done both horrible and wonderful things. And all humans -- black, white, chartreuse -- have an issue with power, just look at our history. It's because there's so many of us whities that our misdeeds gain more attention. Plenty of minorities have perpetrated abominations upon each other and whitey.

Attempting to demonise all whites because of the horrors perpetrated by some today and many in years gone by (just another prejudice) serves no useful purpose other than to create more disharmony, blame, retribution and so on. Far better to learn from the mistakes of now and the past and work together to overcome these prejudices for the benefit of all... and in many respects, many of us are now doing just that as have some very impressive folks (of all colours) in our recent and deep past.

Yes, many white folks have misused power to a disgusting and inhuman extent... but for as many of these as you'll easily find many white folks doing the right thing fighting for and with indigenous folks and folks of colour. Abraham Lincoln and his best mate, Frederick Douglass (an African American cat) together drafted anti-slavery legislation and against a racist nation had the legislation passed.

And yes, today, still, work needs be done re racism (and how to handle power) - but progress is being made, just not quick enough. It's more about acknowledging the reality of human imperfection and dealing with it through deep and widespread education, not blaming and shaming.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 03, 2020, 10:19:19 am
I wasn't demonising all whites, simply stating historical fact.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 03, 2020, 11:12:52 am
Might as well go all the way back to the Vikings then.

This is silly really, even the Australian 1st Nations people debate. There are research papers(hotly denied) floating around now that are suggesting archaeological record shows that long before the people who we now call 1st Nations arrived, there was a civilisation of real 1st Nations based around a race closer to Homo Floresiensis. The original 1st Nations people were basically driven or breed to extinction by those who currently identify as 1st Nations. So I wonder if the people making the new apologist rules and reparations are prepared to be judge under the same terms of reference. What happens if science now finds the genuine 1st Nations people were a bunch of now extinct ancestors of Homo Floresiensis from East Java?

It's a bit like the Maori / Moriori debate in New Zealand. In turns out the Maori weren't the first settlers, but now they claim the land of the long white cloud having slaughtered the original Moriori pacifist farmers. And of course while denying that invasion model the Maori  get compensated for the evils of the more recent European settlers.

Both groups will tell you their culture records verbally or artistically trace back to a time proving occupation, they can tell you the type of plants, weather, rivers and lakes that existed tens of thousands of years back. but that same history seems to conveniently omit obliteration of the original residents. Were the original residents as insignificant to them as some mega-fauna and so not worthy of a record in history?

Pssst, "Be careful what you ask for, and don't mention the war!"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 03, 2020, 11:53:17 am
Have to disagree with that comment, Pauly.

Injustice perpetrated upon anyone, yellow, brown, red, white, purple... doesn't matter, it's always equally unfair and wrong. To have no interest in whites complaining about an injustice because they're white and they've a history of mistreatment is not reason to treat their hurt with any less compassion than anyone else. Actually sounds like just another form of prejudice to do so. We cannot tar the entire white race with the same brush based on the sins of the past. Important to remember that many great and heroic white peoples have fought for and alongside folks of colour, as there have been many great and heroic folks of colour and who've fought with white folks against a tyranny of injustice.

Not a good idea to be angry with all whites because of groups and individual whites who've perpetrated appalling acts upon coloured/indigenous folks. All races have done both horrible and wonderful things. And all humans -- black, white, chartreuse -- have an issue with power, just look at our history. It's because there's so many of us whities that our misdeeds gain more attention. Plenty of minorities have perpetrated abominations upon each other and whitey.

Attempting to demonise all whites because of the horrors perpetrated by some today and many in years gone by (just another prejudice) serves no useful purpose other than to create more disharmony, blame, retribution and so on. Far better to learn from the mistakes of now and the past and work together to overcome these prejudices for the benefit of all... and in many respects, many of us are now doing just that as have some very impressive folks (of all colours) in our recent and deep past.

Yes, many white folks have misused power to a disgusting and inhuman extent... but for as many of these as you'll easily find many white folks doing the right thing fighting for and with indigenous folks and folks of colour. Abraham Lincoln and his best mate, Frederick Douglass (an African American cat) together drafted anti-slavery legislation and against a racist nation had the legislation passed.

And yes, today, still, work needs be done re racism (and how to handle power) - but progress is being made, just not quick enough. It's more about acknowledging the reality of human imperfection and dealing with it through deep and widespread education, not blaming and shaming.



The racist debate is actually racist.

We perpetuate many of our ills in the name of trying to show equality.

I know of people who were overlooked for a role as a partner of a firm, because they didn't have enough female partners and therefore the quota ratios set were not going to be met.  That was discrimination based on gender. 

Now whether or not that was an excuse as to why they didn't give him the role or not, it just goes to show, how trying to perpetuate equality works against equality.

Or perhaps they were discriminating against him being Sri Lankan, because they didnt want a black man to get the job? Who knows.

In reality, I like to think that the idea is that people are not overlooked because of what they arent is more about confirmation bias, than actualy inequality but I scratch my head sometimes.  I work in IT, and the question asked whenever we hire is are their any female applicants?

Using my education as a case study, in most lectures I went to, females to male ratios were at least 20 to 1, yet most females working in IT are actually promoted faster.  That means that not only is the industry biased towards promoting females, they are also hiring them quicker.  Thats discrimination.  Its ignored, because we have to correct it apparently.  Thing is, by being sexist, we are being sexist.  That is the actual ill.  Not whom we are being sexist against.

We need to drive our motivation by standards, not make reparations for previous ills.  The term WASP exists for a reason, and applying that term to a Greek son of a migrant based on his skin colour, is more racist than I will ever be.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 03, 2020, 12:07:00 pm
Well said Thry.  Top marks.  Far too much entitlement
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 03, 2020, 12:15:54 pm
@ Thry
Well said mate.

Reminds me of George Carlin when he said "it's like f*ckin' for virginity" or similar words.

IMO greed is at the root of most of humanity's ills.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 03, 2020, 12:24:46 pm
Stories of people's personal experiences, much like an episode of Insight, are all completely legit, and they certainly have their place, but they don't change the narrative, they don't change the bigger picture, and they don't change historical fact.

This is simply confirmation bias. People have an answer in their mind, and they go into the world looking and as soon as they find the answer that they've already concluded upon, they stop looking.

Promoting women ahead of men where all other factors are equal is indeed a type of bias, but it's a small and necessary bias to correct a much bigger pre-existing bias.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 03, 2020, 12:59:03 pm
This is simply confirmation bias. People have an answer in their mind, and they go into the world looking and as soon as they find the answer that they've already concluded upon, they stop looking.
Social politics suggests it is unidirectional, but it isn't, never was and never will be. The concept of perception being reality works both ways and is always dependant on a human perspective because perception is by definition anthropomorphic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 03, 2020, 01:04:29 pm
Using my education as a case study, in most lectures I went to, females to male ratios were at least 20 to 1, yet most females working in IT are actually promoted faster.  That means that not only is the industry biased towards promoting females, they are also hiring them quicker.  Thats discrimination.  Its ignored, because we have to correct it apparently.  Thing is, by being sexist, we are being sexist.  That is the actual ill.  Not whom we are being sexist against.
Whingers are winner Thry, and generally racism has very little to do with discrimination or deliberate bias, although I appreciate racism or sexism is often the publicly broadcast reason/excuse for explaining away a rejection. it has to be that way I suppose, or else they arrive at the conclusion they are just second rate at whatever position they tried to apply for!

In your industry it's particularly relevant, because there are 10x as many male job applicants rejected for every position, yet we do not usually here them discussing sexism! Yet we are ear-wormed by the media and feminists about equal representation. btw., I see the same in science, industry and education, ironically the education situation is apparently inverse with a shortage of males in the industry.

But we have to be careful, because terms like racism and sexism are plastic, and are frequently re-framed to suit the debate!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on July 03, 2020, 01:27:18 pm
It’s useful to look at History because it provides a background to subsequent events.
The Australian indigenous culture is one of the oldest (if not the oldest) continuing ‘unaffected’ cultures in the world. Unaffected, that is until European settlement. Some aspects of this are that (from all evidence) tribal groups were relatively small. They were mostly nomadic. There is some evidence of permanent settlement but things like houses, strong fortified walls, castles and cities weren’t part of the landscape. As a result there were also no large armies, kings or emperors. There was no great battles involving armies of tens or hundreds of thousands of ‘soldiers’. There appears to have been no strong unifying figure who ‘united the tribes’ and built an empire as occurred in other parts of the world. No doubt there would have been tribal conflicts but that would usually have resulted in the losing side simply moving to another area. The ‘unity’ of the Indigenous Australian is a relatively modern idea but that unity has given a voice and strength to fighting for recognition of past injustices and improvements.
If we look at other areas of colonization we see a similarity. In the USA the most obvious similarity occurs not with the African Americans, whose ancestors were forcibly brought to the country, but with the native American. It’s the same with the native South Americans ‘invaded’ by the Spanish and Portuguese. Conflict, domination and particularly disease had a devastating effect on all these populations. The indigenous population of Australia dropped by about 80-90% in the first 100 years of European settlement.
A significant difference between the Australian/North American experience and colonization elsewhere in the world is that in places like Africa and India/South East Asia the colonist population never grew to the extent where they greatly outnumbered the indigenous population. As a result these countries have mostly now reverted to control by original inhabitants, albeit still with some ‘tribal’ conflict in places.
So we have a situation in Australia where for tens of thousands of years the population was pretty much unaffected by a large invader impacting greatly on their culture. Contrast that with Britain who over a period of around 1500 years were under constant threat. Romans, Vikings, Saxons, Normans all invaded and imposed changes to the native population. Even in subsequent years there was always the threat of invasion. Around the early 1800s when our young colony was finding its feet, ‘back home’ there was a threat from Napoleonic France. Communication was slow. The next ship coming into Port Jackson may have been a French warship or a ship carrying news that the ‘home country’ had fallen.
It wasn’t just a British thing. The borders of Europe were constantly shifting. It may not excuse the attitude of conquest and colonization but it does explain why these things happened (Conquer or be conquered) and it’s not just a White European thing either. Invasion, domination (and associated atrocities) were committed across the Middle and Far East. Religion played a huge part and the damage done in the name of a ‘God or Gods of choice’ is profound.
The point of all this…World history is exactly that raw. Every racial group has probably at some time experienced invasion and damage to their culture. Take the Irish for example…Racism, massacres dispossession and transported half-way around the world in great numbers.
For some nations ‘invasion’ has been a factor in the development of their own bias, hatreds and the way they operated as time went on, yet for some it’s also resulted in an enrichment, modernization and an improved way of life. For the European it’s old history but it’s history that shapes the various nationalities. For the indigenous Australian the injustices all seem relatively ‘new’ especially as they’ve found a unity and voice over the last 50 years or so and there are prejudices that still need to be fought. The important thing is we all learn from the past, acknowledge past mistakes and injustices but give greater emphasis to a future of advancement, fairness and equality of opportunity for all.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 03, 2020, 01:36:15 pm
Yes good points Lods, but I don't weight written history over archaeology.

Archaeology might actually be exposing a lot of what is written about history as bullcrap!

I agree, we have to move forward, we all have to move forward.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 03, 2020, 01:58:41 pm
Moving forward can only occur with a proper acknowledgment of the past, and genuine attempts to redress significant imbalances in society. You can't move forward by simply forgetting, ignoring history or sweeping things under the carpet.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 03, 2020, 02:21:20 pm
Moving forward can only occur with a proper acknowledgment of the past, and genuine attempts to redress significant imbalances in society. You can't move forward by simply forgetting, ignoring history or sweeping things under the carpet.

Absolutely. 'Those who ignore history are deemed to repeat it' as the saying goes. I actually see much in the world that is addressing and seeking to change the injustices and inequities of the past. And that aint easy. Humans don't like change.

We are actually living through a kind of multi-level revolution which will take generations. As it took generations for women to get the right to vote - seems extraordinary, doesn't it, that less than 100 years ago women in the US did not have the right to vote... in fact go back to circa 1790 and beyond in the US and only white, wealthy males had the right to vote as was the case in many parts of the world... so there has been significant progress, which needs to earnestly continue as horrendous injustice does still occur. Sheesh, here in Oz the White Australia Policy was only officially done away with in the early 70s!!! It's gonna take time but we're heading in the right direction though the road be rocky and often difficult and painful.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 03, 2020, 02:30:24 pm
Absolutely. 'Those who ignore history are deemed to repeat it' as the saying goes. I actually see much in the world that is addressing and seeking to change the injustices and inequities of the past. And that aint easy. Humans don't like change.

We are actually living through a kind of multi-level revolution which will take generations. As it took generations for women to get the right to vote - seems extraordinary, doesn't it, that less than 100 years ago women in the US did not have the right to vote... in fact go back to circa 1790 and beyond in the US and only white, wealthy males had the right to vote as was the case in many parts of the world... so there has been significant progress, which needs to earnestly continue as horrendous injustice does still occur. Sheesh, here in Oz the White Australia Policy was only officially done away with in the early 70s!!! It's gonna take time but we're heading in the right direction though the road be rocky and often difficult and painful.

Fred Craddock once said the longest trip any human will ever make is the trip from the head to the heart. Practicing what you preach is extremely difficult.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 03, 2020, 03:41:55 pm
Sheesh, here in Oz the White Australia Policy was only officially done away with in the early 70s!!! It's gonna take time but we're heading in the right direction though the road be rocky and often difficult and painful.
 Yet, global modern societies elected "The Donald", and also surrendered long term control to the likes of Putin and Xi.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 03, 2020, 04:33:13 pm
@ PaulP @Lods @Thry @Baggers @LP
Some seriously insightful posts, thanks for sharing. But my point stands and I cannot take someone like Winmar seriously anymore when he refers to people as "white fellas", sorry I just cant its simply appalling. It's hypocritical, derogatory, racist and only hurts the people he is in fact trying to protect and fight for, not to mention giving the uneducated haters more ammunition. If youre gonna fight for change, do it properly FFS or you'll be considered as just another money grabber (which is how I view Winmar today).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 03, 2020, 04:58:17 pm
@ PaulP @Lods @Thry @Baggers @LP
Some seriously insightful posts, thanks for sharing. But my point stands and I cannot take someone like Winmar seriously anymore when he refers to people as "white fellas", sorry I just cant its simply appalling. It's hypocritical, derogatory, racist and only hurts the people he is in fact trying to protect and fight for, not to mention giving the uneducated haters more ammunition. If youre gonna fight for change, do it properly FFS or you'll be considered as just another money grabber (which is how I view Winmar today).
Agree, I dont really understand the "white fella" lingo either, I believe Winmar that he was making reference to his skin colour and being proud of what he had achieved and no problem with that and that Newman and crew were wrong but that language only fans the flames and makes it a "us against them" situation and thats not going to win the war against racism.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 03, 2020, 06:52:51 pm
Yet, global modern societies elected "The Donald", and also surrendered long term control to the likes of Putin and Xi.

The orange weazel is a gift to the US, demonstrating to them very clearly how stuffed their election system is and how useless their impeachment stuff is... though it did work against Nixon.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 03, 2020, 07:07:50 pm
I don't mind being called a "white fella" or even a "honky" for that matter.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 03, 2020, 07:14:51 pm
I don't mind being called a "white fella" or even a "honky" for that matter.

Me neither, but it really depends on who is calling me those names, my relationship with them, context, the way the words are delivered etc. It is also easier to dismiss those jibes when you are part of the majority culture. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 03, 2020, 07:35:13 pm
Me neither, but it really depends on who is calling me those names, my relationship with them, context, the way the words are delivered etc. It is also easier to dismiss those jibes when you are part of the majority culture. 

I don't  mind who does it tbh. I don't take offence easily. Also, I am used to spending time in the minority at various times in my life.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 03, 2020, 07:49:05 pm
I don't mind being called a "white fella" or even a "honky" for that matter.
Very topical, some uni mates and I do a weekly zoom catch up and were discussing a Love Thy Neighbour video from the series all those years ago. It was deemed comedy at the, so inappropriate.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 03, 2020, 07:51:19 pm
I don't mind being called a "white fella" or even a "honky" for that matter.
So I can refer to Aboriginal person as Black Fella? I would be labelled racist for sure, its totally inappropriate I reckon.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 03, 2020, 07:58:16 pm
I don't  mind who does it tbh. I don't take offence easily. Also, I am used to spending time in the minority at various times in my life.
Not so easy to say that Cookie. I will never forget telling joke on this forum that made fun of a race and sex and someone here lost their crap over it. Made me realise you can't make references like that even thought they were once considered "funny". I reckon the days of comedy shows like Joe Avati, Sooshi Mango and Wogs Out Of Work, Housos, Fat Pizza etc are numbered. Cant have it both ways.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 03, 2020, 08:47:17 pm
Mate I can only go by what I feel. I don't gratuitously offend others but what they feel is their issue and out of my control. Times and social mores change. No value in looking back to the 70s and getting to upset. We've come a long way since then, but there will always be dickheads.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 04, 2020, 12:40:21 pm
Such a vexing subject this racism stuff. Just for clarity perhaps reminding ourselves of the actual definition of racism might help... paraphrased it's (as you know) to judge another unfavourably based on their race or membership of a race.

I'm with the Fluffy One in regards to not being personally offended by being referred to as a 'white fella' or honkey and so on though I respect, totally, those who are affronted or even hurt by such labels.

BUT, then I'm a member of the majority race who have been running the show for eons and I don't have a history of wounds resulting from being judged unfairly based on my colour (or gender) to the extent it resulted in my unfair exclusion in many societal norms (employment/teams/accommodation/transport/friendship/marriage etc). So when we see the reactions of folks of colour to prejudice perhaps we should factor in how it feels to have led of life of exclusion and even ridicule based on skin colour. If you suppress and even denigrate any individual or group of folks it follows that they will either turn on themselves and be convinced they're inferior, bad, unworthy, wrong etc and become depressed or worse... or they'll bottle it up then explode and lash out when it all becomes too much. Just look at what cyber bullying can do to some young folks. Suicide is not uncommon... neither is joining a gang and fighting back. Just thoughts regarding one particular aspect of racism.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 04, 2020, 12:50:22 pm
@ Baggers
Rascism and bullying in our society definitely need to be addressed Baggers, but in the right way. Unfortunately much of today's political activism serves to aggravate those problems rather than solve them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 04, 2020, 02:30:43 pm
People take offence where there is none, or at least intended.  Some of the nicest ones I've met I thought were obnoxious at the outset, but I've not once cared about the labels they might throw at me.

Met 'em all, good and bad (as far as my perceptions are concerned).  All grist for the mill.

The funniest was on the poor side of SFO when I needed gas at a local station sand their pumps were different from ours (this is '78).  Black guy came out from the booth, educated me in their use and said "You are all squared away man?  Be cool"

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 04, 2020, 05:11:45 pm
Poor old Bruce McAveney is copping it for fat shaming Jake Stringer.. think Bruce suggested Jake didn't come back in the best knick and was carrying some kegs.
He didn't say Jake has a fat rump and his guts are hanging out of his jumper but in this over sanitised crazy world he has committed a crime and will be summoned to account by the  public and other media.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 04, 2020, 05:21:54 pm
Into the stocks with him!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 04, 2020, 05:56:06 pm
Poor old Bruce McAveney is copping it for fat shaming Jake Stringer.. think Bruce suggested Jake didn't come back in the best knick and was carrying some kegs.
He didn't say Jake has a fat rump and his guts are hanging out of his jumper but in this over sanitised crazy world he has committed a crime and will be summoned to account by the  public and other media.
Unfortunately Bwuce has been making a lot of uncomfortable comments lately. I suspect it's probably health related or perhaps just showing his age, just silly things, not just or specifically our games but any game.

But crap, if you sit next to BT long enough listening to that crap, you are bound to dragged down to that level!

Unfortunately, and I hate to say this because the bloke is a deadset self-licking popsicle, but lately the best "football" caller seems to be ................. gulp .......................... Brayshaw! The rest of them cannot even get the player names right, and they have no crowd noise to blame!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 04, 2020, 06:27:36 pm
Unfortunately Bwuce has been making a lot of uncomfortable comments lately. I suspect it's probably health related or perhaps just showing his age, just silly things, not just or specifically our games but any game.

But crap, if you sit next to BT long enough listening to that crap, you are bound to dragged down to that level!

Unfortunately, and I hate to say this because the bloke is a deadset self-licking popsicle, but lately the best "football" caller seems to be ................. gulp .......................... Brayshaw! The rest of them cannot even get the player names right, and they have no crowd noise to blame!
Brayshaws over use of nicknames is cringeworthy. I reckon he makes some up on the fly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 04, 2020, 06:29:49 pm
Poor old Bruce McAveney is copping it for fat shaming Jake Stringer.. think Bruce suggested Jake didn't come back in the best knick and was carrying some kegs.
He didn't say Jake has a fat rump and his guts are hanging out of his jumper but in this over sanitised crazy world he has committed a crime and will be summoned to account by the  public and other media.
Say it EB, "PC gone mad", go on, you'll feel better. ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 04, 2020, 07:06:06 pm
Unfortunately Bwuce has been making a lot of uncomfortable comments lately. I suspect it's probably health related or perhaps just showing his age, just silly things, not just or specifically our games but any game.

But crap, if you sit next to BT long enough listening to that crap, you are bound to dragged down to that level!

Unfortunately, and I hate to say this because the bloke is a deadset self-licking popsicle, but lately the best "football" caller seems to be ................. gulp .......................... Brayshaw! The rest of them cannot even get the player names right, and they have no crowd noise to blame!

Well I'm previously on record as saying I like J Brayshaw as a commentator... bit like Rex in that he gets creative with his expressions and names and I like that. I still love Bruce's passion for the game and that helps to forgive a few sins... STFW if he reckons Stringer's got a clacker like a rogue elephant, woops... that could get me in trouble. I also like Derm (insightful and honest), Daisy Pearce, Dwayne, Leigh Matthews and Gerard Whateley (Gerard as a game day commentator but not as a radio / TV celebrity - dryer than a dead dingoes....) And we miss D Cometti.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 04, 2020, 07:10:52 pm
Say it EB, "PC gone mad", go on, you'll feel better. ;D
GTC...Political Correctness has gone mad, there are people doing it tough everywhere including Bruce McAveney and Jake Stringers guts has made the news for different reasons other than what Bruce was alluding to ie a professional athlete has come back to play unprepared. I've had a gutful of PC.....can I say that? or do I need a disclaimer...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 04, 2020, 07:26:09 pm
GTC...Political Correctness has gone mad, there are people doing it tough everywhere including Bruce McAveney and Jake Stringers guts has made the news for different reasons other than what Bruce was alluding to ie a professional athlete has come back to play unprepared. I've had a gutful of PC.....can I say that? or do I need a disclaimer...


Mm, depends on the size of your guts, when you say you've had a gutful! 😉

Funny thing is that I do not know one person who DOESN'T think PC has gone too far and is even just plain silly at times. If it went any further comedy would be outlawed!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 04, 2020, 07:30:29 pm
@ Baggers

A pity George Carlin isn't still with us to cast his acerbic eye on the situation. 😉
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 04, 2020, 07:34:37 pm
..............
Funny thing is that I do not know one person who DOESN'T think PC has gone too far and is even just plain silly at times. If it went any further comedy would be outlawed!

I don't think PC has gone too far. More often than not, it's political and cultural conservatives, and folks on the right of the political spectrum, who seem to have an issue with political correctness. As for comedians, you can be clever about stereotyping like Jerry Seinfeld, or you can be a total sh1thead, like the loathsome Andrew Dice Clay.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on July 04, 2020, 07:49:58 pm
I don't think PC has gone too far. More often than not, it's political and cultural conservatives, and folks on the right of the political spectrum, who seem to have an issue with political correctness. As for comedians, you can be clever about stereotyping like Jerry Seinfeld, or you can be a total sh1thead, like the loathsome Andrew Dice Clay.  

I read an article the other week about people wanting the popular pre-school cartoon Paw Patrol taken off of air because they paint police as good guys.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 04, 2020, 07:55:13 pm
I read an article the other week about people wanting the popular pre-school cartoon Paw Patrol taken off of air because they paint police as good guys.

https://7news.com.au/opinion/cartoons/calls-for-kids-cartoon-paw-patrol-to-be-cancelled-amid-black-lives-matter-movement-c-1097092

Yes, well, when I refer to political correctness, I mean properly researched, properly debated, scholarly ideas that have merit and substance, not gossamer nonsense from twitter.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 04, 2020, 08:01:24 pm
I don't think PC has gone too far. More often than not, it's political and cultural conservatives, and folks on the right of the political spectrum, who seem to have an issue with political correctness. As for comedians, you can be clever about stereotyping like Jerry Seinfeld, or you can be a total sh1thead, like the loathsome Andrew Dice Clay.  

Well I and most of my friends are definitely not far right conservatives, politically or culturally - not by a long shot. In fact, speaking for myself I'm miles off conservatism... though I am very conservative when working with power tools and electricity! So, perhaps a sweeping generalisation there, Pauly.

But on another angle, Pauly, do I sniff a prejudice against our conservative brothers and sisters?

I'd never heard of Andrew Dice Clay so just watched a bit of his stuff on YouTube. Well, not my cup of tea... just a little too base without being funny or clever for my liking (but very appealing to 'the shadow'... Jordan P would have a ball with this cat). Can I suggest you don't watch any Jim Jeffries or Jimmy Carr! I found Seinfeld clever but boring, but don't look down my nose at those who love him and his brand of humour.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 04, 2020, 08:03:13 pm
https://7news.com.au/opinion/cartoons/calls-for-kids-cartoon-paw-patrol-to-be-cancelled-amid-black-lives-matter-movement-c-1097092

Yes, well, when I refer to political correctness, I mean properly researched, properly debated, scholarly ideas that have merit and substance, not gossamer nonsense from twitter.
I thought we were disussing political correctness gone mad?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 04, 2020, 08:05:18 pm
https://7news.com.au/opinion/cartoons/calls-for-kids-cartoon-paw-patrol-to-be-cancelled-amid-black-lives-matter-movement-c-1097092

Yes, well, when I refer to political correctness, I mean properly researched, properly debated, scholarly ideas that have merit and substance, not gossamer nonsense from twitter.

An important distinction that you may have to explain in more detail... most of what we've been referring to here as excessive PC doesn't fall into the specialist categories you're pointing out.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 04, 2020, 08:06:58 pm
I thought we were disussing political correctness gone mad?

We are, but that story about Paw Petrol has nothing to do with political correctness. It's standard issue social media idiocy. It's a trap people fall into all the time, conflating what they think is "x" with what is really "x".
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 04, 2020, 08:13:42 pm
We are, but that story about Paw Petrol has nothing to do with political correctness. It's standard issue social media idiocy. It's a trap people fall into all the time, conflating what they think is "x" with what is really "x".
I guess we have to turn to your expertise to draw that line?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 04, 2020, 08:17:37 pm
I guess we have to turn to your expertise to draw that line?

I don't think any expertise is required in order to draw a distinction between fluff on social media and genuine attempts to create a more inclusive, tolerant and accepting society, ideas which lie at the heart of political correctness.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 04, 2020, 08:52:27 pm
https://7news.com.au/opinion/cartoons/calls-for-kids-cartoon-paw-patrol-to-be-cancelled-amid-black-lives-matter-movement-c-1097092

Yes, well, when I refer to political correctness, I mean properly researched, properly debated, scholarly ideas that have merit and substance, not gossamer nonsense from twitter.

Seems you've picked your side already. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 04, 2020, 08:53:36 pm
I don't think any expertise is required in order to draw a distinction between fluff on social media and genuine attempts to create a more inclusive, tolerant and accepting society, ideas which lie at the heart of political correctness.
[/quote
I don't think any expertise is required in order to draw a distinction between fluff on social media and genuine attempts to create a more inclusive, tolerant and accepting society, ideas which lie at the heart of political correctness.

I guess identifying the genuine attempts can be a bit tricky?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 04, 2020, 10:27:30 pm
Looking at Full Lockdown in Melbourne, could be announced as early as tomorrow.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 05, 2020, 08:40:16 am
Looking at Full Lockdown in Melbourne, could be announced as early as tomorrow.

Just a matter of time. The quarantine seems to have been a major stuff up.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on July 05, 2020, 10:30:16 am
I hope they didn't hire those useless "crowd controller" (I think that's what they're supposed to be)  clowns in hivis vests that pollute AFL stadia on game days... The clueless cretins who spend the day on their phone doing F knows what.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 05, 2020, 11:05:47 am
@ Prof

I think the police are involved this time,  at least at the tower blocks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 05, 2020, 12:27:59 pm
I hope they didn't hire those useless "crowd controller" (I think that's what they're supposed to be)  clowns in hivis vests that pollute AFL stadia on game days... The clueless cretins who spend the day on their phone doing F knows what.
I know one thing for sure, the guards they hired were dumber than the doors they were guarding. I mean they had one job, guard the doors, no one in or out. They took people shopping FFS! I would take away their security guard registration and ban them from working in the industry because they are just too dumb. That might qualify them as Carlton Footballers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 05, 2020, 12:34:26 pm
Ask the bungling idiot who calls himself premier.  FU after FU
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 05, 2020, 12:48:44 pm
Ask the bungling idiot who calls himself premier.  FU after FU
Not an Andrews fan CC, but I think ScoMo bullied him into opening up Victoria a bit earlier than he wanted and your idiot faction
thought it was the green light to go back to normal and forget about the CoVid basics.
You look at Sidebottom, pissed, half naked and wandering around the streets and you wonder WTF that sets as an example to the public especially after all the warnings, education AFL players would have had about looking after themselves and avoiding trouble especially during a pandemic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 05, 2020, 01:30:10 pm
Ask the bungling idiot who calls himself premier.  FU after FU
Carl Williams is dead mate.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 05, 2020, 01:31:18 pm
Not an Andrews fan CC, but I think ScoMo bullied him into opening up Victoria a bit earlier than he wanted and your idiot faction
thought it was the green light to go back to normal and forget about the CoVid basics.
You look at Sidebottom, pissed, half naked and wandering around the streets and you wonder WTF that sets as an example to the public especially after all the warnings, education AFL players would have had about looking after themselves and avoiding trouble especially during a pandemic.
Ive heard all sorts of horror stories about imbeciles in the North West not giving a f#$%. Its almost like its being done on purpose.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on July 05, 2020, 03:25:03 pm
GITC.... They're everywhere mate,  we're drowning in imbeciles... Dangerous,  selfish, clueless ones.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 05, 2020, 04:17:32 pm
A problem in Australia seems to be testing is being applied in a political manner, not uniformly.

In Victoria they are testing hotspots, and they report positives from a single real or false positive as an case, that will make the numbers looks artificially bad, and the rate is roughly at or below the false positive rate so it's hard to separate real versus potential cases. The true picture only surfaces after two or three consecutive tests.

In other regions they are testing in a much more egalitarian fashion, silly stuff like testing clusters 800km from the capital, or testing 100% of the well-to-do areas and ignoring the ghettos. For example, I read NSW was doing concentrated testing on one side of the Murray, while Victoria is doing zero testing straight across the river, consolidated from both sides have zero real cases.

Some regions require two positives tests before a COVID-19 case is reported as confirmed, other regions report cases based on one positive, there is no uniform approach!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 05, 2020, 09:58:08 pm
https://www.afr.com/policy/economy/failure-after-failure-for-tough-talking-andrews-20200705-p5596l
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 06, 2020, 09:57:51 am
Poor old Bruce McAveney is copping it for fat shaming Jake Stringer.. think Bruce suggested Jake didn't come back in the best knick and was carrying some kegs.
He didn't say Jake has a fat rump and his guts are hanging out of his jumper but in this over sanitised crazy world he has committed a crime and will be summoned to account by the  public and other media.

Funny thing it was BT who did that first.  Bwuce just went on with it.

Amazing how BT is a protected species.  The guy is a proper dimwit and carries on like a porkchop.

What I wouldnt give to be listening to Dennis Commetti who was witty and had a much better commentary voice.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 06, 2020, 10:19:42 am
Such a vexing subject this racism stuff. Just for clarity perhaps reminding ourselves of the actual definition of racism might help... paraphrased it's (as you know) to judge another unfavourably based on their race or membership of a race.
  Its just as racist to promote people based on race as it is to denigrate them.  If not its worse.  Its discriminatory based on racial prejudice.  Person X is worthy of promoting because of their race.  Thats how the whole WASP culture started to begin with.
Quote
I'm with the Fluffy One in regards to not being personally offended by being referred to as a 'white fella' or honkey and so on though I respect, totally, those who are affronted or even hurt by such labels.

BUT, then I'm a member of the majority race who have been running the show for eons and I don't have a history of wounds resulting from being judged unfairly based on my colour (or gender) to the extent it resulted in my unfair exclusion in many societal norms (employment/teams/accommodation/transport/friendship/marriage etc).
This is happening to me now, even though I was discriminated against as a child for being a "wog" by the white kids at school.  Now i'm one of the white ones, solely because there are more migrants of actual black colour here than their used to be and Im seen as an oppressor.  Its all good, I should just wear that, because of systemic gains by my culture.  right?

Son of a migrant who left Greece in Civil war.  Yep.  Privlidged.

Quote
So when we see the reactions of folks of colour to prejudice perhaps we should factor in how it feels to have led of life of exclusion and even ridicule based on skin colour. If you suppress and even denigrate any individual or group of folks it follows that they will either turn on themselves and be convinced they're inferior, bad, unworthy, wrong etc and become depressed or worse... or they'll bottle it up then explode and lash out when it all becomes too much. Just look at what cyber bullying can do to some young folks. Suicide is not uncommon... neither is joining a gang and fighting back. Just thoughts regarding one particular aspect of racism.

Exactly.  I am reacting to how unfair its been to have spent the majority of my school years being called a fat smelly wog, but now being called an oppressive wasp, and for some reason also being told that women need to be promoted ahead of me too because some men have reaped the rewards of being in power.

Yep, fairness.  Life has taught me that life is not fair, and the most unfair thing you can expect is equality.  Why?  because in order to achieve equality, we have to continue seeding discontent, division, elitism, and promotion of people based on race, gender, religious idology etc.

We are simply exchanging one form of discrimination for another, and all the people purporting to promote equality are fueling the continuation of discriminatory behaviour.

TREAT PEOPLE EQUALLY FFS.  That doesnt mean promote, or deny one.  It means give everyone a level playing field.  This is why society is deteriorating FWIW.  We keep making bonehead decisions on the back of having made bonehead decisions because we keep trying to make it an eye for an eye.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2020, 10:42:50 am
The idea of promoting folks based on gender or race is simply a short to medium term strategy to give those groups a leg up, groups that have been disadvantaged or excluded for decades, in order to gain long term benefits. It is no different to playing the kids ahead of more seasoned players, or giving young people the first home buyers loan grant. It's not a new or revolutionary idea, and it manifests itself in many ways throughout society.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 06, 2020, 11:24:05 am
TREAT PEOPLE EQUALLY FFS.  That doesnt mean promote, or deny one.  It means give everyone a level playing field.  This is why society is deteriorating FWIW.  We keep making bonehead decisions on the back of having made bonehead decisions because we keep trying to make it an eye for an eye.
While I'm generally in agreement with this statement, this COVID situation is a case in which the current situation is exacerbated by a very specific group behaviour and not really attributable to the wider community, yet it impacts everyone.

Governments are effectively powerless, and in most cases politically weak in the light of the current problems.

What are they going to do, publicly broadcast the fundamental cause and divide the community, it's untenable when the problem is really people not policy. It's too late in this case to do much, because the violations that caused the current outbreak came weeks ago when groups ignored the rules to host large family or community gatherings. Ironically, some cursory data suggests these groups are also the most vulnerable, they are actually the ones who should be ultra-vigilant of quarantine and isolation rules!

Political correctness and a minority privilege mentality has made things worse, yet there is no chance of it being address by politicians!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 06, 2020, 11:33:06 am
https://www.afr.com/policy/economy/failure-after-failure-for-tough-talking-andrews-20200705-p5596l
That feels like going the early crow.

I hope for the well-being of people in NSW the author is correct, because otherwise the situation might be genuinely grim given the recent relaxing of restrictions there and in Qld.

It's a very long bow to draw a relationship between the lack of ADF involvement and the current situation, a correlation rather than a causation.

This statement in the article is a huge tell, about COVID-19 numbers and reporting;
Quote
Andrews tries to justify the jump in numbers as being due to the much greater level of testing under way in Victoria relative to anywhere else in the country. He is not forthcoming on why such intensive testing is only necessary in his state.
So they are not intensively testing in the other states, "The Donald" approach, what virus?

Below is the policy of other states, but it is not a long term effective policy!
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/UnnaturalColorlessJapanesebeetle-small.gif)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 06, 2020, 12:33:01 pm
Was interesting to see 6 F1 drivers didnt "take a knee" with the rest of their colleagues before the race last night. They all posted reasoning via their social media pages. Leclerc posted  "..what matters are facts and behaviors in our daily life rather than formal gestures that could be seen as controversial in some countries.."
Thoughts?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 06, 2020, 12:38:44 pm
Was interesting to see 6 F1 drivers didnt "take a knee" with the rest of their colleagues before the race last night. They all posted reasoning via their social media pages. Leclerc posted  "..what matters are facts and behaviors in our daily life rather than formal gestures that could be seen as controversial in some countries.."
Thoughts?
Is this the sign of a society segment or country that refuses the US global perspective, or just a fragmentation of "The West" as we know it?

FWIW, I doubt the future is much brighter for China, especially given that HK appears to be just the trigger some have been searching for!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 06, 2020, 12:51:06 pm
These latest measures certainly have a whiff of panic about them. What haven't we been told??
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 06, 2020, 01:10:34 pm
These latest measures certainly have a whiff of panic about them. What haven't we been told??
Ignoring the social mechanisms, the real worry seems to be that the latency of the infection is creeping beyond 14 days into the 3 to 4 week category.

I can't believe the other states are not conducting intensive testing, it's exposing the infection front in Victoria as much broader than authorities relate.

FFS, Qld is out pissing on and partying, are they risking becoming the next LA?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 06, 2020, 01:45:47 pm
Ignoring the social mechanisms, the real worry seems to be that the latency of the infection is creeping beyond 14 days into the 3 to 4 week category.

I can't believe the other states are not conducting intensive testing, it's exposing the infection front in Victoria as much broader than authorities relate.

FFS, Qld is out pissing on and partying, are they risking becoming the next LA?

I spoke for the first time with a couple of friends who've had and recovered from C-19 - I spoke with them last week. A mother and daughter returning from the UK and were quarantined. Their flight into Sydney wasn't allowed to go to the usual terminal, instead it was met on the tarmac by an ambulance and the whole bio team and kit and kiboodle. There was a bloke on board their long haul flight with symptoms... fever etc. Apparently he was a young bloke and in a bad way.

Anyway, my pals -- mum 71 and daughter 36 -- came down with C-19 two days later and were very crook but not hospitalised. It lasted just on 4 weeks for both and a day apart, right at the end, both had severe diarrhea for a day. Both are fine now though a little croaky. The mum was a little worried as she has had a few bouts of bronny and has a crook lung but all A OK. They were saying that the docs were saying that it doesn't appear to be an anti lung thing as first thought but rather a blood borne virus that plays havoc with the immune system with diabetics the most at risk along with those with compromised immune systems.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 06, 2020, 02:34:09 pm
They were saying that the docs were saying that it doesn't appear to be an anti lung thing as first thought but rather a blood borne virus that plays havoc with the immune system with diabetics the most at risk along with those with compromised immune systems.
It seems there is no general consensus, in fact one of the problems seems to be it's uniquely high variability.

I'm reading all sorts of reports of harming this bodily system or the next, what I'm not reading anywhere except from conspiracy theorists and nutters is that it's harmless!

I think if "Scotty from Marketing" wants us to get serious he has to enforce uniform standards of testing and reporting, but I suspect he also sits firmly in "The Donald" camp.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on July 06, 2020, 07:08:23 pm
The feds are pushing the "open the borders" and "the economy  the economy", Andrew's tries to shut it down.... And Andrew's is the problem? So who was right Scotty from marketing?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 06, 2020, 08:59:04 pm
The folk in the lockdown towers in Melbourne have received their first food designed to last them 48 hours.
A daughter and her elderly mother received 4 sausage rolls....
The local Mcdonald's must have been shut, nice to know you are valued so highly.. Disgraceful if that's the standard of food..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on July 06, 2020, 09:51:55 pm
Interesting Graphic

https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/2944635/?fbclid=IwAR32_Di6CyM8_b-T9KYbgChY0bltaI2rO3oz5b5IqA_dkekwmK_ga59DPjg
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 07, 2020, 08:28:30 am
Interesting Graphic

https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/2944635/?fbclid=IwAR32_Di6CyM8_b-T9KYbgChY0bltaI2rO3oz5b5IqA_dkekwmK_ga59DPjg

Wow, brings home, very succinctly the seriousness of the issue.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 07, 2020, 09:50:32 am
The folk in the lockdown towers in Melbourne have received their first food designed to last them 48 hours.
A daughter and her elderly mother received 4 sausage rolls....
The local Mcdonald's must have been shut, nice to know you are valued so highly.. Disgraceful if that's the standard of food..

I saw some very different food stocks provided from a variety of different sources.

Something doesnt add up there.  Smells of trying to paint a certain picture IMHO.  Else we would have a mass outrage.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 07, 2020, 10:01:17 am
I saw some very different food stocks provided from a variety of different sources.

Something doesnt add up there.  Smells of trying to paint a certain picture IMHO.  Else we would have a mass outrage.
Agreed, it's another example of the post truth world, where all that matters is an opinion even if it is political.

The worry for me is that the 4th Estate is supposed to be the guardian of truth, not the propagator of lies, yet at this time in history it seems to be choosing what it debunks and when!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 07, 2020, 10:40:47 am
Agreed, it's another example of the post truth world, where all that matters is an opinion even if it is political.

The worry for me is that the 4th Estate is supposed to be the guardian of truth, not the propagator of lies, yet at this time in history it seems to be choosing what it debunks and when!

Seems the new god for the 4th estate is 'click bait' and to hell with anything else!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 07, 2020, 10:59:18 am
There used to be a saying in my youth "Don't believe everything you read in the newspapers". Never has this been more true than right now.  :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 07, 2020, 12:47:24 pm
Wow, brings home, very succinctly the seriousness of the issue.

Absolute lie this chart.

Cherry picked to make it look far, far worse.....than the reality.

What do people die from? https://ourworldindata.org/causes-of-death#all-charts-preview

On your chart malaria at #2, in the full chart malaria barely top 20.

More fake news.

And the BS that is the PCR test. LP (I think) suggested 70% accuracy.

https://off-guardian.org/2020/06/27/covid19-pcr-tests-are-scientifically-meaningless/?fbclid=IwAR2jn-7-W7hg4c6TQ1vJIogyvgz0I3UJR3EJss4XC06RhoL8oBv16izuilI
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 07, 2020, 01:00:35 pm
Absolute lie this chart.

Cherry picked to make it look far, far worse.....than the reality.

What do people die from? https://ourworldindata.org/causes-of-death#all-charts-preview

On your chart malaria at #2, in the full chart malaria barely top 20.

More fake news.

And the BS that is the PCR test. LP (I think) suggested 70% accuracy.

https://off-guardian.org/2020/06/27/covid19-pcr-tests-are-scientifically-meaningless/?fbclid=IwAR2jn-7-W7hg4c6TQ1vJIogyvgz0I3UJR3EJss4XC06RhoL8oBv16izuilI

Thank you, FB, but it's not my chart... just posted my reaction to it. Good to know it's bs. But still, half a million folks having perished from c-19 is pretty sobering, to put it mildly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 07, 2020, 01:30:46 pm
Thank you, FB, but it's not my chart... just posted my reaction to it. Good to know it's bs. But still, half a million folks having perished from c-19 is pretty sobering, to put it mildly.
Actually the Flourish chart is pretty good, in that it reports realistic figures of a bunch of relative diseases over a short period. I don't think the authors made any effort to represent itself as a statistical breakdown of all deaths.

As I mentioned before, it's easy for cynics to misrepresent the statistics, because they publish and discuss the figures as absolute and not as percentage change in a baseline. COVID-19 is a new disease, it's numbers have to be reported in addition to pre-existing causes of death, not as a percentage of the previous death rates!

A nice figure in the flourish chart is the COVID-19 versus Influenza, as cynics always use the "COVID-19 is no worse than the Flu"  argument, but clearly that is not the case and never was! If you hear "COVID-19 no worse than the Flu", you know it's fake news!

FWIW, the general international consensus is that COVID-19 deaths are understated, because many regions use the numbers as a political tool. For example, China and Russia pretty much exclude COVID-19 as a cause if any other disease is present. They do that despite it being accepted that people with pre-existing conditions are far more susceptible to death from a coincident COVID-19 infection. For example, if you get a COVID-19 infection and that affects your heart and pass away, and you have a record of a previous heart condition, Russia and China will report the cause of death cardiovascular disease. Meaning the reported figures are artificially low, probably only for political and social engineering purposes.

Anyway, all that spin is just for the media and conspiracy theorists, the numbers are so big and the sample size so large that the baselines are well established now. How many get it, how many of those who get it will die, are all pretty much locked into the math.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 07, 2020, 01:34:31 pm

That other better food was from charities not the government.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/mum-and-daughter-reveal-shocking-melbourne-lockdown-conditions-022310703.html

191 new cases...we are heading for full lockdown in Melbourne

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 07, 2020, 01:40:51 pm

Not click bait this time....
https://au.news.yahoo.com/mum-and-daughter-reveal-shocking-melbourne-lockdown-conditions-022310703.html

191 new cases...we are heading for full lockdown in Melbourne
One of the guys here at work has a wife in VicPol who is working at the site. He said last night she was assaulted trying to stop a bunch of trouble makers from within the high rise from pinching the food hampers from other residents. Apparently the food hampers by COVID-19 protocol get left outside the apartment doors for collection.

These pricks weren't pinching the hampers to eat, they were caught pinching them and throwing them in a commercial bin!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 07, 2020, 01:59:44 pm
One of the guys here at work has a wife in VicPol who is working at the site. He said last night she was assaulted trying to stop a bunch of trouble makers from within the high rise from pinching the food hampers from other residents. Apparently the food hampers by COVID-19 protocol get left outside the apartment doors for collection.

These pricks weren't pinching the hampers to eat, they were caught pinching them and throwing them in a commercial bin!
What lovely community spirit, first class a-holes.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: rocky on July 07, 2020, 02:04:15 pm
One of the guys here at work has a wife in VicPol who is working at the site. He said last night she was assaulted trying to stop a bunch of trouble makers from within the high rise from pinching the food hampers from other residents. Apparently the food hampers by COVID-19 protocol get left outside the apartment doors for collection.

These pricks weren't pinching the hampers to eat, they were caught pinching them and throwing them in a commercial bin!

Nothing surprises me anymore. These events bring out a lot more of the bad in people (and bad people) than the good. I'm sure they'll be some sort of excuse made for the culprits if it ever gets revealed. No doubt someone else will be at fault.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 07, 2020, 02:56:17 pm
Actually the Flourish chart is pretty good, in that it reports realistic figures of a bunch of relative diseases over a short period. I don't think the authors made any effort to represent itself as a statistical breakdown of all deaths.

As I mentioned before, it's easy for cynics to misrepresent the statistics, because they publish and discuss the figures as absolute and not as percentage change in a baseline. COVID-19 is a new disease, it's numbers have to be reported in addition to pre-existing causes of death, not as a percentage of the previous death rates!

A nice figure in the flourish chart is the COVID-19 versus Influenza, as cynics always use the "COVID-19 is no worse than the Flu"  argument, but clearly that is not the case and never was! If you hear "COVID-19 no worse than the Flu", you know it's fake news!

FWIW, the general international consensus is that COVID-19 deaths are understated, because many regions use the numbers as a political tool. For example, China and Russia pretty much exclude COVID-19 as a cause if any other disease is present. They do that despite it being accepted that people with pre-existing conditions are far more susceptible to death from a coincident COVID-19 infection. For example, if you get a COVID-19 infection and that affects your heart and pass away, and you have a record of a previous heart condition, Russia and China will report the cause of death cardiovascular disease. Meaning the reported figures are artificially low, probably only for political and social engineering purposes.

Anyway, all that spin is just for the media and conspiracy theorists, the numbers are so big and the sample size so large that the baselines are well established now. How many get it, how many of those who get it will die, are all pretty much locked into the math.

Rubbish. A graph cannot be "pretty good" if it excludes relevant data. By design or otherwise....

So it's just coincidence that covid happens to end up on top? ROFL.

" the general international consensus is that COVID-19 deaths are understated" Disagree. Strongly. China and Russia are but 2 countries. Excess death numbers do not support your proposition.

To digress, in Italy for example, 99% of COVID deaths had 1 or more comorbidity. If one dies with COVID rather than from COVID....it counts!

India has shown the way with only 14 deaths per million - in a poor country with high population and familial density.

Many US States and counties have adopted a probable test (over 15 categories), where a person who hasn't  actually tested positive gets treated as a positive....

IFRs - globally on average little more than a bad flu season - fact. https://swprs.org/studies-on-covid-19-lethality/

And let's not even get started on how many lives would have been saved if treated early with the HCQ cocktail. Or if f...wits liked Cuomo in NYC hadn't forced elderly folk back into homes from hospitals irrespective of whether they had the virus. Sweden and the UK also had very poor records in this regard.

And before you ramble on about WHO's latest BS proclamation, do some reading:

Four studies this past week in support of HCQ:

HCQ/AZ/Zn, 99.3% outpatient survival rate (Zelenko): https://preprints.org/manuscript/202007.0025/v1…

HCQ reduces mortality by >50% (Henry Ford): https://ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)30534-8/fulltext…

HCQ+AZ w/ 0.5% mortality rate (Raoult) : https://sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893920302817

Mount Sinai (NYC) study by Mikami et al showing HCQ resulted in a ~50% decreased mortality rate in COVID-19 patients (similar results as Henry Ford Hospital).

https://t.co/tgFtMcG2Q4?amp=1

The most politicised medical 'event' ever - Big Pharma gone mad. Again.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 07, 2020, 03:40:10 pm
Well back to the lock down.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 07, 2020, 03:51:53 pm
Rubbish. A graph cannot be "pretty good" if it excludes relevant data. By design or otherwise....

So it's just coincidence that covid happens to end up on top? ROFL.
It's fine, it is relative to other diseases which is perfectly relevant.

As opposed to some the figures you've quoted below, like;
India has shown the way with only 14 deaths per million - in a poor country with high population and familial density.
Hmm, officially India report about 20K deaths from 700K cases, that 20/700 * 100 = 3%

The thing that is extraordinary about India is that it is not like Brazil, at least yet, the strongest drivers of COVID-19 deaths versus cases are socio-economic! Of course India, unlike yourself and Brazil, isn't in denial about COVID-19, India took it very very seriously right from the start.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 07, 2020, 03:53:16 pm
Many US States and counties have adopted a probable test (over 15 categories), where a person who hasn't  actually tested positive gets treated as a positive....
In infectious disease control it's normal for tests described as indeterminate or irregular to be treated as positive, any test that isn't a negative is a positive because the people doing the testing are not idiots!

It's called playing it safe and not being a reckless goose!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 07, 2020, 03:54:11 pm
IFRs - globally on average little more than a bad flu season - fact. https://swprs.org/studies-on-covid-19-lethality/
 
Except it's fake reporting.

The actual COVID-19 infection rate is almost 5X the Flu infection rate, and the Flourish chart shows that, it's simple accounting and not to be feared.

Real figures, real news, not fake!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 07, 2020, 03:55:10 pm
And let's not even get started on how many lives would have been saved if treated early with the HCQ cocktail. Or if f...wits liked Cuomo in NYC hadn't forced elderly folk back into homes from hospitals irrespective of whether they had the virus. Sweden and the UK also had very poor records in this regard.
 The latest science peer reviewed and verified research suggests...........None, with a slight chance of more deaths like happened in Brazil!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 07, 2020, 03:56:31 pm
And before you ramble on about WHO's latest BS proclamation, do some reading:

Four studies this past week in support of HCQ:
HCQ/AZ/Zn, 99.3% outpatient survival rate (Zelenko): https://preprints.org/manuscript/202007.0025/v1…
HCQ reduces mortality by >50% (Henry Ford): https://ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)30534-8/fulltext…
HCQ+AZ w/ 0.5% mortality rate (Raoult) : https://sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893920302817
Mount Sinai (NYC) study by Mikami et al showing HCQ resulted in a ~50% decreased mortality rate in COVID-19 patients (similar results as Henry Ford Hospital).
https://t.co/tgFtMcG2Q4?amp=1
Any chance of referencing some peer review articles from non-predatory journals that aren't using fake or redundant researcher profiles?

Do you know what Open Access infers?

I suppose probably not, the audited journals are not going to risk their reputation allowing this rubbish to be self-published without peer review.

Nobody is going to seriously claim that HCQ is "the missing link" when it's given with a barrage of other drugs including other powerful antibiotics. Perhaps the circular referencing is a hint, it may be worthwhile spending some time reading up on correlation versus causation, and how much work is required to get from a correlation to a causation, the answers won't be available this year!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 07, 2020, 04:02:32 pm
Well back to the lock down.
Yep, 6w from 11:59pm tomorrow, Melb metro and Mitchell Shire.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 07, 2020, 04:29:36 pm
Interesting developments in our town.  Businesses are no longer exactly welcoming out of town tourists.  Seems like they learned from the last time when they blew in and took large quantities of stock ordered for the locals.   

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 07, 2020, 04:40:43 pm
Interesting developments in our town.  Businesses are no longer exactly welcoming out of town tourists.  Seems like they learned from the last time when they blew in and took large quantities of stock ordered for the locals.
Good, these roaming parasites are actually part of the problem!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 07, 2020, 06:04:26 pm
Interesting developments in our town.  Businesses are no longer exactly welcoming out of town tourists.  Seems like they learned from the last time when they blew in and took large quantities of stock ordered for the locals.   



Likewise here. Suddenly, the holiday homes and AirB'nBs are filling up! Once the constabulary does a sweep of number plates over the next few days I expect a few to get their marching orders... along with a fine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 07, 2020, 08:15:37 pm
Any chance of referencing some peer review articles from non-predatory journals that aren't using fake or redundant researcher profiles?

Do you know what Open Access infers?

I suppose probably not, the audited journals are not going to risk their reputation allowing this rubbish to be self-published without peer review.

Nobody is going to seriously claim that HCQ is "the missing link" when it's given with a barrage of other drugs including other powerful antibiotics. Perhaps the circular referencing is a hint, it may be worthwhile spending some time reading up on correlation versus causation, and how much work is required to get from a correlation to a causation, the answers won't be available this year!

Ah, so you resort to ad hominem attack.

The play of the average intellect.

Missing link? wtf does that mean. Multiple observational studies in multiple independent jurisdictions have show the 'blend' to be extremely highly effective if given as an early stage treatment....and in the right dosages.

What, you reckon it's all made up?

Dispute the evidence not the non "peer review journal"...

Should I recount the Lancet's last lame effort to discredit HCQ?

Weak as piss LP. Put up of something of substance or STFU.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 07, 2020, 08:26:16 pm
It's fine, it is relative to other diseases which is perfectly relevant.

As opposed to some the figures you've quoted below, like;Hmm, officially India report about 20K deaths from 700K cases, that 20/700 * 100 = 3%

The thing that is extraordinary about India is that it is not like Brazil, at least yet, the strongest drivers of COVID-19 deaths versus cases are socio-economic! Of course India, unlike yourself and Brazil, isn't in denial about COVID-19, India took it very very seriously right from the start.

CFRs are BS numbers, but no doubt you know that....

You think I made that up?

14 deaths per million. It's a piss in the wind to the other stuff they've faced through history.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

And the chart is BS by any metric - you can't simply omit a dozen or so of the top causes of death to make a point.

It's clear you have an agenda, so be it.

Thankfully, the data speaks for itself.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 07, 2020, 08:33:22 pm
CFRs are BS numbers, but no doubt you know that....

You think I made that up?

14 deaths per million. It's a piss in the wind to the other stuff they've faced through history.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

And the chart is BS by any metric - you can't simply omit a dozen or so of the top causes of death to make a point.

It's clear you have an agenda, so be it.

Thankfully, the data speaks for itself.
RUOK Flyboy?

The thing that is a bit disturbing is that you looked at the Flourish graph and immediately focused on millions of deaths that should be counted above COVID-19, that is if the chart had every possible means of death listed. Trivializing and discounting the thousands of people who have died from COVID-19 related complications, and even in our own town many more who may in light of the post restriction reckless behavior that is promoted by similar outlooks to your own!

You've constructed a disturbing and destructive model of reality that gets reinforced every time you read some questionable facts or dubious data relationship, while immediately disregarding the real figures and lives lost. The problems isn't the figures, COVID-19 isn't a conspiracy, it's a pandemic that is killing people and you should consider those with friends and family who have been harmed or perished before you trivialize it further.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 07, 2020, 08:43:13 pm
RUOK Flyboy?

The thing that is a bit disturbing is that you looked at the Flourish graph and immediately focused on millions of deaths that should be counted above COVID-19, that is if the chart had every possible means of death listed. Trivializing and discounting the thousands of people who have died from COVID-19 related complications, and even in our own town many more who may in light of the post restriction reckless behavior that is promoted by similar outlooks to your own!

You've constructed a disturbing and destructive model of reality that gets reinforced every time you read some questionable facts or dubious data relationship, while immediately disregarding the real figures and lives lost. The problems isn't the figures, COVID-19 isn't a conspiracy, it's a pandemic that is killing people and you should consider those with friends and family who have been harmed or perished before you trivialize it further.

Is that your best LP?

I saw the chart and immediately knew it was a con job as it omitted (likely by design) a dozen or so of the leading causes of death annually.

I note you don't dispute or refute the full list of causes I posted.

Your pitch refutes the data. Hard data.

Are you really a scientist? Did you fail maths at school?

Plenty of things kill us, we don't stop 'life' as we know it....the play book is well known, a pity politics got in the way.

The US? COVID is a created crisis.... IL, MA, MI, NJ, NY, PA State governors made nursing homes accept sick folk = mass deaths. Huge numbers!

The balance of US States, COVID seldom broke CDC's epidemic threshold.....

COVID is a virus that we now know can be readily managed - and contained - well it would be, but for the folk with agendas, political or otherwise.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 07, 2020, 09:05:08 pm
I saw the chart and immediately knew it was a con job as it omitted (likely by design) a dozen or so of the leading causes of death annually.

Are you really a scientist? Did you fail maths at school?
I did learn some math, I think it was called subsets.

Lucky for the USA, eh?

Let see what your Worldometer source says about that non-epidemic threshold fake fact!
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries)

Trump would probably even disown that one! :D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 07, 2020, 09:10:13 pm

I did learn some math, I think it was called subsets.

Get a refresher.

No comment on the efficacy of the PCR test?

https://off-guardian.org/2020/06/27/covid19-pcr-tests-are-scientifically-meaningless/?fbclid=IwAR2jn-7-W7hg4c6TQ1vJIogyvgz0I3UJR3EJss4XC06RhoL8oBv16izuilI

or even this

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30610-3

or this

https://www.nicholaslewis.org/why-herd-immunity-to-covid-19-is-reached-much-earlier-than-thought/

ps you can't really believe the peer review process has any substance surely?

As for your alleged fake fact, try here....

https://coronavirusbellcurve.com/

get back to me.





Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 07, 2020, 09:12:10 pm
Get a refresher.

No comment on the efficacy of the PCR test?

https://off-guardian.org/2020/06/27/covid19-pcr-tests-are-scientifically-meaningless/?fbclid=IwAR2jn-7-W7hg4c6TQ1vJIogyvgz0I3UJR3EJss4XC06RhoL8oBv16izuilI

PCR is fine, it's infinitely better than misleading uninformed opinions proliferating the internet, and opinions of people who do not understand science and how it works!

https://www.nicholaslewis.org/why-herd-immunity-to-covid-19-is-reached-much-earlier-than-thought/

You really don't get cause and effect, do you, there is no causality in your private universe?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 07, 2020, 09:23:43 pm

PCR is fine, it's infinitely better than misleading uninformed opinions proliferating the internet, and opinions of people who do not understand science and how it works!

You really don't get cause and effect, do you, there is no causality in your private universe?

Your responses are getting lamer and lamer.

I quote directly from the inventor of the PCR 'test' (which it isn't) but you know better....

What is your field of science by the way?

My speciality is stats and numbers in general, not in the science field, but that objective space helps me cut through the BS....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 08, 2020, 06:51:50 am
Are you guys done?
This was inevitable.

You cannot hide from a virus forever.  Be it now or when international travel returned in earnest.  With no vaccine it was always going to come to rising case numbers.  The real question is why the lockdown?

Lockdown part one was about being prepared for the virus.  We copped that, its fine.  We now have 30 in hospital and 9 in Icu.  Thats actually not that alarming.

We are looking at over a 1000 positive cases for less than 40 in hospital.

Whilst I can appreciate the numbers if expanded out to match our population size lead to significant pressure on the health system, they have forgotten to expand out the number of positive cases with no hospitalisation by comparison which should model to a fairly mundane level of sickness.

I could have gotten the maths wrong here but I'm not sure.  At the hospital i work at there hasnt been more than 3 confirmed positive cases admitted at any one time.  The numbers are so low that they actually halved a ward with the fire doors to allow more regular patients more beds.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 08, 2020, 07:55:01 am
My speciality is stats and numbers in general, not in the science field, but that objective space helps me cut through the BS....
 I hope you don't make a career of it! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on July 08, 2020, 11:39:09 am
As an old Albury-Wodonga boy (I lived on both sides of the river many years ago) I'm wondering why they didn't start the restrictions/crossing/'border' north of Albury. The cross border traffic is considerable but most folks are just going from Albury to Wodonga or back the other way.

(Edit: Sounds like they're on to it.) :D




Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 08, 2020, 01:07:05 pm
As an old Albury-Wodonga boy (I lived on both sides of the river many years ago) I'm wondering why they didn't start the restrictions/crossing/'border' north of Albury. The cross border traffic is considerable but most folks are just going from Albury to Wodonga or back the other way.

(Edit: Sounds like they're on to it.) :D
 
Yep, my relatives in Echuca / Moama have stated a similar thing, closing up the river crossing was going to hurt both towns and many people were organising to slip across to one side or the other before the closure. There are people sleeping on couches and spare beds everywhere!

I bet the NSW government doesn't stop the Fisheries officers crossing the border. If they do stop them blame it on Sweden! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 08, 2020, 01:34:32 pm
Albury / Wodonga was obvious from day dot.  Pity our bloody idiot premiers don't have the first idea about geography.  Inept and incompetent
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 08, 2020, 02:34:08 pm
Albury / Wodonga was obvious from day dot.  Pity our bloody idiot premiers don't have the first idea about geography.  Inept and incompetent

I have friends in Tweed Heads who had to put up with the farce of not being allowed to cross the street into Coolangatta during their border closure.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 08, 2020, 04:16:43 pm
(https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/106223853_1409832139407256_6171250986362687545_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_sid=ca434c&_nc_ohc=uvvbfXyESp0AX_yMvD7&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=2ca294d10a5bccdffc146318140e3210&oe=5F29D69F)

Just about sums it up!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 09, 2020, 10:57:19 am
Perhaps LP, you should listen to a few experts...

https://unherd.com/2020/06/karl-friston-up-to-80-not-even-susceptible-to-covid-19/

Your certitude is sadly misguided.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 09, 2020, 11:07:42 am
(https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/106223853_1409832139407256_6171250986362687545_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_sid=ca434c&_nc_ohc=uvvbfXyESp0AX_yMvD7&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=2ca294d10a5bccdffc146318140e3210&oe=5F29D69F)

Just about sums it up!

No one has said it's not dangerous, just it needs to be put into perspective and that it doesn't warrant a closure of our economy.

Are you really unable to grasp the distinction?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 09, 2020, 11:33:26 am
No one has said it's not dangerous, just it needs to be put into perspective and that it doesn't warrant a closure of our economy.

Are you really unable to grasp the distinction?
Yet you apparently miss that your own campaign for the use of HCQ is contradictory to your claims that Big Pharma has created the COVID-19 hysteria.

Do you grasp that?

Your campaign for people to suck down HCQ, without any causal proof it does a thing, encourages and enables "Big Pharma" to make a tidy profit in the process without foundation! I gather that "Big Pharma" didn't blink at supplying the generic royalty free version of HCQ in bulk to Brazil, not that it helped much.

Will you take offence at having your own claims weighed by your own standards, or are you just wilfully oblivious because one side of the debate doesn't fit your conspiracy?

All comments have to be weigh in the same framework or else that is cherry-picking, and cherry-picking leads the community up the garden path!

I suppose if we are going to accept and publish stuff like the "Surgisphere HCQ booster theory", then we had better not pick and choose, and we should publish other correlative stuff about COVID-19 that increases it's threat to everyone! For example a new study from University College London shows that there is an increased risk of brain disease in COVID-19 patients of all ages, not just the elderly. Summarised here in plain language at The Conversation.

https://theconversation.com/how-coronavirus-affects-the-brain-141100

Quote
Extract;

The virus also has the potential to infect the brain directly (https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acschemneuro.0c00122). However, most of the physical effects we’ve seen in survivors look like secondary impacts of the virus being present in the brain rather than the effects of direct infection. For example, our immune system can appropriately fight the virus, but may start to attack our own cells – including our brain cells and nerves. This may be through the actions of immune cells and antibodies via an inflammatory mechanism known as a cytokine storm (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32192578/), or through mechanisms we don’t yet understand.
 
 


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 09, 2020, 12:42:46 pm
Yet you apparently miss that your own campaign for the use of HCQ is contradictory to your claims that Big Pharma has created the COVID-19 hysteria.

Do you grasp that?

Your campaign for people to suck down HCQ, without any causal proof it does a thing, encourages and enables "Big Pharma" to make a tidy profit in the process without foundation! I gather that "Big Pharma" didn't blink at supplying the generic royalty free version of HCQ in bulk to Brazil, not that it helped much.

Will you take offence at having your own claims weighed by your own standards, or are you just wilfully oblivious because one side of the debate doesn't fit your conspiracy?

All comments have to be weigh in the same framework or else that is cherry-picking, and cherry-picking leads the community up the garden path!

I suppose if we are going to accept and publish stuff like the "Surgisphere HCQ booster theory", then we had better not pick and choose, and we should publish other correlative stuff about COVID-19 that increases it's threat to everyone! For example a new study from University College London shows that there is an increased risk of brain disease in COVID-19 patients of all ages, not just the elderly. Summarised here in plain language at The Conversation.

https://theconversation.com/how-coronavirus-affects-the-brain-141100

I love how you never ANSWER a specific question, never debate an actual topic, just choose to obfuscate and/or play the ad hominem card. Total absence of intellectual rigour.

The observational study data is overwhelming - given at the right stage i.e. EARLY - and at the right dosage (recent UK study gave patients an initial dosage that was all but deadly)....The Zelenko protocol or the like works.

Causal proof? Saving lives isn't enough for you?

When did politics overrun science (rhetorical question). Watch the Unherd clip? Learn anything?

Don't be a lightweight LP.

Here are 4 recent studies AGAIN.

Four studies this past week in support of HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE: HCQ/AZ/Zn, 99.3% outpatient survival rate (Zelenko): https://preprints.org/manuscript/202007.0025/v1…

HCQ reduces mortality by >50% (Henry Ford): https://ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)30534-8/fulltext…

HCQ+AZ w/ 0.5% mortality rate (Raoult) : https://sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893920302817

Mount Sinai (NYC) study by Mikami et al showing HCQ resulted in a ~50% decreased mortality rate in COVID-19 patients (similar results as Henry Ford Hospital).

https://t.co/tgFtMcG2Q4?amp=1


You need to get out of your little bubble and think a bit rather than playing the game....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 09, 2020, 01:57:10 pm
There are no questions to answer about these issues because they are all based on fake premises, there is no causal evidence for saving life from SARS-CoV-2 infections through the use of HCQ, so no answering the question based on a fake and fabricated premise.

You re-posting the same correlations over and over again is not offering facts or supporting evidence, and no matter how many times it gets re-posted, re-submitted or re-published by various people plagiarising the original work, won't help improve the quality of it. It's just a correlation, like The Donald claiming a thousand retweets legitimises his opinion.

So there is nothing to answer or debate, because what you are looking for doesn't exist, your language asserts causality where none exists. That is a matter for you, not me!

There are reputable journals and groups doing HCQ studies, and they do so without needing to distort the facts, and they are doing it on a scale that is relevant with thousands of patients in a double blind studies both as treatment and prophylactic . Not hand-picked small numbers of narrow band demographic already infected patients, and not in-discriminant screen scraping large scale meta-data studies like Surgisphere. It will probably be another year before the legit studies have locked down answers for any of the alternatives, bad, indifferent or good!

But I suppose the claim will be that the stuff those legitimate studies omit, generally things that they cannot prove or support from the data, will be proof of a Big Pharma conspiracy or political interference! I'd be justified to expect such a response, already we've seen a response in that manner, when a simple subset chart that uses the same basic set of figures as your preferred source allegedly omits data to "deliberately make things look worse!"

As for the other fake assertion, that of a better economic path. Sweden took the less economic damage approach for a COVID-19 strategy, regarding not taking an economic hit to control the virus, and it actually has turned out a hell of lot worse for them both from an economic and a health perspective. As reported by Sweden! Have they turned evil, has Sweden been got at, by Big Pharma perhaps? :o

If it's bogus from the start, a thousand copies of the same won't make it legitimate!

Yes the usual tactics, disparagement, smoking doesn't cause lung disease, guns don't kill people kill, vaccination kills, climate change isn't real, COVID-19 is biological warfare, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.....! The pattern is obvious, it's a preferred tactic of the fakies, make some fake assertions and conclusions from cherry-picked data then draw in a bunch of well-meaning researchers or specialists into a debate on the premise in a hope to add legitimacy. It's a tactic that is now growing old, people across the internet are too well informed, they can see through the fakies!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 10, 2020, 09:52:38 am
All Im going to add to this debate is the following:

make sure that anything criticising the pandemic, isnt riddled with misinformation, and confirmation bias.

Correlation not causation.

likewise for anything affirming the steps we are taking to prevent things from getting out of hand.

The actions, and the reaction are sometimes hard to quantify in terms of what was the best possible outcome, and often the facts and figures get in the way of the human cost of such decisions.

When push comes to shove, the idea of shutting us down for the health, safety and well being of everyone isnt solely a control measure, it is done in the best interests of everyone.  For the greater good.

Whether or not this action is warranted is actually a seperate argument.  To answer that relies on having key data that we the people are not actually privy to.  Most of the arguments are generally happening at a level of "I KNOW BETTER THAN YOU".

That is already a false premise.  The worlds reaction to this pandemic tells me that no one really knows what we are looking at, and are acting based on potential outcomes, and only post pandemic will those outcomes really be understood.  Anyone asserting otherwise is actually motivated with a pre conceived idea on what the best course of action is, and will selectively choose evidence to confirm that.  Hence why I stated, dont act based on what the information is telling your confirmation bias.

The facts state the following:

1.  we have a virus no one has seen before.
2.  We dont have a good grasp on how it effects people.
3.  Our health systems that are normally geared to trying to help people achieve "normal levels" are continuing to do act as they normally do and are not winning that fight which is a cause for concern on multiple levels.
4.  This is an infectious disease.
5.  It has the capability to be a cause of death where ordinarily people wouldn't die from some of their other co-morbities.
6.  The reaction to the virus falls into an acceptable motivation that is geared towards preventing bad outcomes, rather than enforcing worse outcomes.


Anything else is HYPERBOLE.  No one knows what the cost of not shutting down is, and the cost to treat a patient requiring treatment in a pandemic might actually cost the same as the damage we are doing to the economy.

Did you know, that rooms in 5 star hotels are cheaper than a hospital bed on a per night basis?

When viewing this pandemic through that lense, think REALLY hard about the cost of flooding our hospitals with patients who are not in for one night, but multiple on a ventilator.  The hospitals are not free, and patient treatment is actually very expensive, whether you see a bed or not.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 10, 2020, 10:17:25 am
Oh and some economic food for thought:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/07/business/sweden-economy-coronavirus.html?referringSource=articleShare%E2%80%9CIt&fbclid=IwAR3gZcUOF2XwrhqoSWa8vRbU4tDbEcI8GiRHwxEq4AE8Oc6HqaFs0pzsuAg

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 10, 2020, 11:36:05 am
Very well authored Thry.

I see the economic debate as more of a political debate, ultimately it's about privilege, private versus public health ideology. But even for the privileged, it only makes sense if you think there is a certain cure, which it seems there isn't!

For example the actions in the UK are contradictory to experience. Does this mean Boris Johnson thinks he is now immune to a second bout of Sars-CoV-2? It would seem to be that he thinks the risk to health from opening the economy is justified, so he either hasn't learned or he thinks the rest of the population are collateral damage to economic management. But what if the worst case scenarios are correct or even under-estimated?

In the long term, isn't this just a shift of the real costs from the general population and small business into health? Yet ultimately we will all pay via taxes anyway!

If you fail politically, a good way to get rid of the NHS by some other means is to send it broke

Some may argue that re-opening the economy only makes sense if you think health care is the domain of the wealthy. It's the ultimate outcome of the worst case scenario of re-opening the economy, is this something Sweden and a couple of other European states are now learning the hard way? It seems they are proof the economic rationalism was fundamentally wrong, having grossly underestimated the economic cost of leaving a natural resolution to the infection. Brazil is now also in this same boat, with it seems Mexico to follow.

Some will argue there will be just as many deaths from economic suffering and stress, perhaps even from war. But the unaddressed infection will see millions starving anyway, which will then probably lead to dispute, I suppose the economic rationalists will say that is a NIMBY issue!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 10, 2020, 01:42:32 pm
There are no questions to answer about these issues because they are all based on fake premises, there is no causal evidence for saving life from SARS-CoV-2 infections through the use of HCQ, so no answering the question based on a fake and fabricated premise.

You re-posting the same correlations over and over again is not offering facts or supporting evidence, and no matter how many times it gets re-posted, re-submitted or re-published by various people plagiarising the original work, won't help improve the quality of it. It's just a correlation, like The Donald claiming a thousand retweets legitimises his opinion.

So there is nothing to answer or debate, because what you are looking for doesn't exist, your language asserts causality where none exists. That is a matter for you, not me!

There are reputable journals and groups doing HCQ studies, and they do so without needing to distort the facts, and they are doing it on a scale that is relevant with thousands of patients in a double blind studies both as treatment and prophylactic . Not hand-picked small numbers of narrow band demographic already infected patients, and not in-discriminant screen scraping large scale meta-data studies like Surgisphere. It will probably be another year before the legit studies have locked down answers for any of the alternatives, bad, indifferent or good!

But I suppose the claim will be that the stuff those legitimate studies omit, generally things that they cannot prove or support from the data, will be proof of a Big Pharma conspiracy or political interference! I'd be justified to expect such a response, already we've seen a response in that manner, when a simple subset chart that uses the same basic set of figures as your preferred source allegedly omits data to "deliberately make things look worse!"

As for the other fake assertion, that of a better economic path. Sweden took the less economic damage approach for a COVID-19 strategy, regarding not taking an economic hit to control the virus, and it actually has turned out a hell of lot worse for them both from an economic and a health perspective. As reported by Sweden! Have they turned evil, has Sweden been got at, by Big Pharma perhaps? :o

If it's bogus from the start, a thousand copies of the same won't make it legitimate!

Yes the usual tactics, disparagement, smoking doesn't cause lung disease, guns don't kill people kill, vaccination kills, climate change isn't real, COVID-19 is biological warfare, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.....! The pattern is obvious, it's a preferred tactic of the fakies, make some fake assertions and conclusions from cherry-picked data then draw in a bunch of well-meaning researchers or specialists into a debate on the premise in a hope to add legitimacy. It's a tactic that is now growing old, people across the internet are too well informed, they can see through the fakies!

So you ignore the 50 odd studies?

https://c19study.com/

And you're a scientist. Hah, says it all really. A total absence of intellectual rigour.

You have clearly read so little about the situation that you don't even understand the Lancet/Surgisphere study was entirely anti HCQ -but then shown to be fraudulent and quickly retracted by Lancet. As was another anti HCQ study.

Lightweight stuff LP, but apparently the norm from you.

You suggesting the Lancet isn't reputable LP? Pissweak stuff.

You keep throwing the word "fake" in yet you back it up with nothing.

You call Sweden a failure yet there were numerous countries that imposed severe lockdowns that had/have significantly higher death rates. How things pan out for them economically (especially relative to others) remains to be seen.

I note also that their method of reporting COVID deaths would clearly result in over reporting of the numbers. And at least they admit they screwed up wrt nursing homes, unlike idiots like Cuomo in NYC who should be put on trial.

You claim there is no existing or pre existing immunity in the community in the face of direct evidence to the contrary.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/300-million-people-may-infected-covid-19-stanford-guru-john-ioannidis-says/5717660

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53248660

https://www.wsj.com/articles/herd-immunity-may-be-closer-than-you-think-11594076237

People can draw their own conclusions.

And look, the great white hope promoted by Fauci and Big Pharma, Remdesivir - a wipe out!

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ijid.2020.06.093

You won't see that in MSM.

I'll stick to the footy - you neither have the the capacity nor the ability to have a reasoned discussion.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 10, 2020, 02:15:25 pm
288 new cases in Victoria and now masks are the preferred option when in close contact with others, lockdown in Victoria will exceed the six weeks for sure. Idiots still partying on and being caught by the cops, I'd jail these clowns, good luck trying to fine these bozo's and get the money out of them..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on July 10, 2020, 02:26:30 pm
There are too many of them, we don't have enough jail cells. Check the photos from Mornington pier this morning. Melbourne just simply has too many people who care only about themselves, this will get very bad in a few weeks when the deaths start piling up
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 10, 2020, 03:18:57 pm
Was at the local supermarket yesterday for a few essentials and hardly anyone seemed to have heard of social distancing and very few had masks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 10, 2020, 03:48:09 pm
The stupidity and self-interest of around 20% of people at present is breathtaking. Disappointing. Infuriating. They're fckng it up for the rest of us. Perhaps they believe Jones and Bolt and other similar far right c0ckheads of the grandest order.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 10, 2020, 05:54:30 pm
So you ignore the 50 odd studies?
Your resorting to personal abuse doesn't correct for your errors, it's just a sign of desperation to cover for your ignorance, and it exposes your lack of understanding of science and the scientific method.

Retrospective meta-data studies, which covers every paper you linked to, aren't rigorous investigations of HCQ efficacy for use in fighting COVID-19. As the studies are "retrospective", they take notice of correlations between the present of a drug either coincidentally or deliberately. They don't tell you if the people were on HCQ prior, as many people around the globe are already on HCQ for arthritis treatment. So claiming that that recovery is because of coincident use of HCQ and other antibiotics is just a correlation, a coincidence, no matter how many coincident cases they add the study. These retrospective meta-data studies are exactly the same as Surgispehere, and all they can identify is correlation with causality.

Further, these studies were retrospective, so did not pick people who are COVID-19 free and give them HCQ to see if their outcomes to an infection were better, a key aspect of a double blind efficacy study.

In reality, most of these studies looked at COVID infected people within a narrow age group, quite possible a demographic that could already contain a higher percentage of people already on HCQ, as you might find in an age care facility compared to the general population. So studying HCQ in that circumstance, and even if the recovery rate is high, normal or lower than normal relative to the general public, you end up finding HCQ is present in a higher percentage of people who recovered, which is a correlation that occurs because the sample set already has higher than normal HCQ exposure.

To prove something you have to take that correlation and perform a a double blind study, which will include people of demographics with and without COVID infections, as well as giving 1/3rd of the people a placebo which they and the doctors do not know about, and another 1/3rd of the people get nothing at all. That will take 12 to 18 months to get a result. None of those studies which have started, not one, are even close to being finished yet!

I'm sorry you can't understand this stuff, it's not my fault do not take it out on me! But I'll always refuse to let you or anyone post dangerously wrong opinionated rubbish without calling it out! If you are going to post correlations as causality, it will always result in this sport of debate.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 10, 2020, 06:13:14 pm
Uh oh, exponential curves!

(https://scx1.b-cdn.net/csz/news/800/2020/5efdc90632ca0.jpg)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 10, 2020, 07:37:06 pm
288 new cases in Victoria and now masks are the preferred option when in close contact with others, lockdown in Victoria will exceed the six weeks for sure. Idiots still partying on and being caught by the cops, I'd jail these clowns, good luck trying to fine these bozo's and get the money out of them..
I was thinking about this today, people potting everyone from Scomo to Andrews. Ill tell you something, we can get rid of them tomorrow morning, but the bozos will still exist.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 10, 2020, 09:29:20 pm
Its this simple.  Cedar meats start of may.  Ramadan end of may.  Halfway through june we had the black lives matter protest.  July, we have an Islamic school and the cases escalating out of control in the towers they live in.

Whilst the hospitals arent under pressure its fine.  If this leads to increased hospitalisation we are in strife.

The worst part about the positive cases is that it's a lagging indicator.

We won't see significant decreasing cases for at least two weeks. 

By then we'll see Sydney blowing up IMHO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 10, 2020, 10:58:56 pm
I was thinking about this today, people potting everyone from Scomo to Andrews. Ill tell you something, we can get rid of them tomorrow morning, but the bozos will still exist.
For sure...its a balancing act with health vs economy and the poli's are in the middle and to be fair both ScoMo and DA have done a reasonable job. Andrews got let down by some security staff at quarantine hotels and probably got pressured into opening up sooner than he wanted.
The bozo's who flaunt the law and want to put us back in danger wouldnt be so lucky in a few other countries where their KFC meal might have been their last meal.
Its going to be a long haul as like Thry alluded to there will be a outbreak in NSW IMHO and the cycle will continue like it has here and we will take a few steps back before it gets better.
I'd like to see a few Bozo's jailed just to send a clearer message that we wont tolerate yobbo dopey behavior that puts others at risk and hopefully that might get a few other would be idiots to sit up and think the police and government mean business.
Fining people with no money or little to lose doesnt work.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 11, 2020, 07:54:11 am
For sure...its a balancing act with health vs economy and the poli's are in the middle and to be fair both ScoMo and DA have done a reasonable job. Andrews got let down by some security staff at quarantine hotels and probably got pressured into opening up sooner than he wanted.
The bozo's who flaunt the law and want to put us back in danger wouldnt be so lucky in a few other countries where their KFC meal might have been their last meal.
Its going to be a long haul as like Thry alluded to there will be a outbreak in NSW IMHO and the cycle will continue like it has here and we will take a few steps back before it gets better.
I'd like to see a few Bozo's jailed just to send a clearer message that we wont tolerate yobbo dopey behavior that puts others at risk and hopefully that might get a few other would be idiots to sit up and think the police and government mean business.
Fining people with no money or little to lose doesnt work.
Pretty damning article in the HS about the security guards fiasco today.
- Andrews refused the federal offer to use Defence and Fed Pol Staff to manage the hotel quarentine
- Instead he used private guards, jobs for the boys, who were not trained effectively
- Guards didnt follow rules, shagged guests in return for letting them out
- Guests who resused to be tested were let allowed to leave anyway
This list goes on. As Thry said, the hotels saga,and Cedar meats outbreak, is genomically linked to most if not all of the new cases. It shouldnt be behind the paywall, so you can read it. Its too long to post.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/how-a-catalogue-of-failures-turned-victoria-into-a-virus-timebomb/news-story/da01b73b37ce3c88eb18c3f8c73bb15d
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on July 11, 2020, 10:59:52 am
Been saying it for months.  Our society is full of entitled, selfish F-wits and we're all going to pay for the meatheads.   Classic example: Shane the dumb fcuk tradie biatching on 774 Thursday AM about having to wait at the Avalon  checkpoint while commuting from Melbourne to Queenscliff for work.   Well Shane it's people like you that have rampantly spread this thing because you believed it to be "fake",  that you were "essential".  What part of STAY HOME DiDnt you get?   I won't even start on tradies blowing in and taking the few local jobs on the Belkarine.  Seriously,  when is the straight out sense of entitlement of the unwashed masses going to stop? Why is Portarlington currently full of out-of-towners???  Our society continues to stagger me with the depths plumbed in stupidity and selfishness.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 11, 2020, 01:06:43 pm
This list goes on. As Thry said, the hotels saga,and Cedar meats outbreak, is genomically linked to most if not all of the new cases. It shouldnt be behind the paywall, so you can read it. Its too long to post.
Actually it appears there are really only two dominant strains in Australia, so most people will be one or the other. NSW is dominated by one and Vic the other, there is a smaller outbreak of a third major strain in Qld.

The science is a bit overstated in the media, it's not as straight forward as News Ltd and others make out! The media and some social commentators are motivated by finding someone to blame.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: jeza on July 11, 2020, 04:42:06 pm
I was happy with Andrews at the start but as the pandemic went on it all seemed to stroke his ego somehow and he took his eye off the ball. Started referring to himself a lot in his press confs. And now - due 100% to his incompetence the virus is back out inflicting death and economic devastation.

Allowing returned travellers back into the country in the volumes we did was madness.

Locating them in the most densely populated area in the country - madness.

Paying for their hotel stay - madness.

Paying minimum wage security guards to look after it all - madness.

Put them in a tent in a paddock on the Puckapunyal army base and make them pay for the priveledge - ringed by fences and soldiers... then see how many returned travellers desperately needed to travel during the worst global pandemic in history.

This is not me using 20-20 hindsight either. I saw this coming weeks ago and if an ignoramus like me can see it coming you can bet Dan had many advisors giving him the heads up about where we were headed. Which is why the blame is all his. Career killing mistake... and rightly so.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: jeza on July 11, 2020, 04:44:36 pm
If it were up to me Dan (who I voted for) would be facing criminal charges.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 11, 2020, 04:49:56 pm
I was happy with Andrews at the start but as the pandemic went on it all seemed to stroke his ego somehow and he took his eye off the ball. Started referring to himself a lot in his press confs. And now - due 100% to his incompetence the virus is back out inflicting death and economic devastation.

Allowing returned travellers back into the country in the volumes we did was madness.

Locating them in the most densely populated area in the country - madness.

Paying for their hotel stay - madness.

Paying minimum wage security guards to look after it all - madness.

Put them in a tent in a paddock on the Puckapunyal army base and make them pay for the priveledge - ringed by fences and soldiers... then see how many returned travellers desperately needed to travel during the worst global pandemic in history.

This is not me using 20-20 hindsight either. I saw this coming weeks ago and if an ignoramus like me can see it coming you can bet Dan had many advisors giving him the heads up about where we were headed. Which is why the blame is all his. Career killing mistake... and rightly so.
As I keep saying, militant unions run the state, a sweetheart deal was struck with them to give the job of quarantining travellers to private security firms while all the other states used Fed Pol and Army.  Lunacy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: jeza on July 11, 2020, 07:02:10 pm
As I keep saying, militant unions run the state, a sweetheart deal was struck with them to give the job of quarantining travellers to private security firms while all the other states used Fed Pol and Army.  Lunacy.

Agreed. Lunacy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 11, 2020, 07:20:16 pm
As I keep saying, militant unions run the state, a sweetheart deal was struck with them to give the job of quarantining travellers to private security firms while all the other states used Fed Pol and Army.  Lunacy.

I'm not so sure militant unions run the state but if they've had undue influence on Andrews, especially re guarding towers etc., then that'd be a career killer and will be revealed in the investigation, an investigation that has insisted on access to all persons including the the Premier - no-one exempt from the investigation.

I've thought all state Premiers have done a good job but IF proved that a 'jobs for mates' scenario is discovered in VIC then we'll all demand the sound of rolling heads.

It's quite possible that this is a 2nd wave which hasn't hit other states as yet, time will tell.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 11, 2020, 09:58:31 pm
I'm not so sure militant unions run the state but if they've had undue influence on Andrews, especially re guarding towers etc., then that'd be a career killer and will be revealed in the investigation, an investigation that has insisted on access to all persons including the the Premier - no-one exempt from the investigation.

I've thought all state Premiers have done a good job but IF proved that a 'jobs for mates' scenario is discovered in VIC then we'll all demand the sound of rolling heads.

It's quite possible that this is a 2nd wave which hasn't hit other states as yet, time will tell.
Its a Mickey Mouse investigation, see extract from HS article

The Herald Sun understands that hearings will be held in public, and that ministers, departmental staff and ­security guards involved will be called to testify.

But unlike a royal commission, witnesses can refuse to answer questions for fear of self-incrimination.

The inquiry also will not have the power to issue search warrants or seize documents, like that of a royal commission.

Questions have also been raised about the inquiry, to be headed by former judge Jennifer Coate, being hindered by its terms of reference.

Under those, the decisions and communications between government agencies, hotel operators and private contractors are set to be probed.

However specific decisions of a policy nature — as ­opposed to its implementation by an agency — may be ­beyond the scope.

Leader of the Opposition in the upper house, David Davis, described the inquiry as a “whitewash designed to shield the Premier and his key ministers from scrutiny”.

“The inquiry is clearly designed to direct the questions to agencies and shield ministers; it’s a cover-up,” Mr Davis said.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 12, 2020, 09:36:00 am
Its a Mickey Mouse investigation, see extract from HS article

The Herald Sun understands that hearings will be held in public, and that ministers, departmental staff and ­security guards involved will be called to testify.

But unlike a royal commission, witnesses can refuse to answer questions for fear of self-incrimination.

The inquiry also will not have the power to issue search warrants or seize documents, like that of a royal commission.

Questions have also been raised about the inquiry, to be headed by former judge Jennifer Coate, being hindered by its terms of reference.

Under those, the decisions and communications between government agencies, hotel operators and private contractors are set to be probed.

However specific decisions of a policy nature — as ­opposed to its implementation by an agency — may be ­beyond the scope.

Leader of the Opposition in the upper house, David Davis, described the inquiry as a “whitewash designed to shield the Premier and his key ministers from scrutiny”.

“The inquiry is clearly designed to direct the questions to agencies and shield ministers; it’s a cover-up,” Mr Davis said.

Hopefully the frames of reference will change. I heard the former judge being interviewed on the radiola on Friday insisting that the powers of the investigation be broadened. Hopefully she is successful.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 12, 2020, 10:36:54 am
Where's our minister for health, Jenny Mikakos, in all of this? I haven't been paying super close attention but I  haven't seen hide nor hair of her?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 12, 2020, 10:44:57 am
Been saying it for months.  Our society is full of entitled, selfish F-wits and we're all going to pay for the meatheads.   Classic example: Shane the dumb fcuk tradie biatching on 774 Thursday AM about having to wait at the Avalon  checkpoint while commuting from Melbourne to Queenscliff for work.   Well Shane it's people like you that have rampantly spread this thing because you believed it to be "fake",  that you were "essential".  What part of STAY HOME DiDnt you get?   I won't even start on tradies blowing in and taking the few local jobs on the Belkarine.  Seriously,  when is the straight out sense of entitlement of the unwashed masses going to stop? Why is Portarlington currently full of out-of-towners???  Our society continues to stagger me with the depths plumbed in stupidity and selfishness.

I'll start this by saying i don't know who you are referring to from the radio. So context may be a little off here.

But....
You can't pot a bloke for trying to work.
As a tradie, he is able to social distance himself at work.
As a tradie, he is entitled to go where the work is.
As a tradie, he is told he is allowed to work.
As a tradie, he is only going to go where people hire him to work.

So if you have issues with a tradie going to work down there, perhaps think about the blokes that hired him in the first place, not pot a bloke trying to earn a buck and provide for his family.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 12, 2020, 11:24:58 am
Where's our minister for health, Jenny Mikakos, in all of this? I haven't been paying super close attention but I  haven't seen hide nor hair of her?

She appears in andrews almost daily bleatings / briefings.  Says nothing of course when she takes her turn at providing comments of any quality.  The Marcel Marceau of the ALP
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 12, 2020, 11:34:40 am
@Capcom
Thanks mate. I would  have thought that she would have been much more prominent,  but then again......
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on July 12, 2020, 10:03:16 pm
Which branch of the military has expertise in providing security at hotels?  Some of my old unit perhaps but it’s certainly not a task that 95% of the military are trained for.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 12, 2020, 11:24:34 pm
Which branch of the military has expertise in providing security at hotels?  Some of my old unit perhaps but it’s certainly not a task that 95% of the military are trained for.


I would guess one military person would have more brain power in one finger nail than the imbecile security guards combined chosen to guard the doors. What farken idiot would think it's a good idea to shag a potentially infected person? You couldn't make this crap up.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 13, 2020, 08:17:03 am
Which branch of the military has expertise in providing security at hotels?  Some of my old unit perhaps but it’s certainly not a task that 95% of the military are trained for.
 What happens when some protester gobs in the face of a guy from the army who doesn't want to be there in the first place?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on July 13, 2020, 09:14:29 am
I would guess one military person would have more brain power in one finger nail than the imbecile security guards combined chosen to guard the doors. What farken idiot would think it's a good idea to shag a potentially infected person? You couldn't make this crap up.

Many of the blokes I served with weren’t particularly sharp and some wouldn’t hesitate to shag a brown dog with three legs.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on July 13, 2020, 10:10:41 am
...but its Andrews' fault
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 13, 2020, 10:28:15 am
For arguments sake, the security guards at the hotels were blokes who were displaced from their regular jobs as businesses closed, AND from what I understand, the majority of international travel was coming through Melbourne before filtering out to the rest of Australia.   Lets see how the other states go now with the infection rates rising again.

I dont necessarily think it was a bad idea for them to do what should have been the easiest security job in history.  Particularly in the context of keeping people who would have been out of work, in work.

At the end of the day, this biggest problem isn't the idea of putting security in that role.  Its the fact that the rhetoric that this pandemic isn't worth worrying about, for the greater portion of the population, and the voices screaming loudest about the damage to the economy are funnily enough the ones screaming that Dan failed, because he employed PRIVATE people to handle what should have been an elementary job.  Wear a mask, and make sure the people who are in their rooms stay put, practise hand hygiene, and keep your distance.

I can see it around me even now.  We have "stage 3 lockdown" and the vast majority of the populace don't seem to care.  They think this is all a conspiracy to control their freedoms.

You know, through history the tale tells a story of humanity having to find a way to survive.  The last 40 years has re written that history a bit.  Instead of having to find a way, we have lived through perhaps the easiest, and least challenging period of our history with everything at our fingertips.  Information, means, money, food.  The vast majority of our western societys have enjoyed unprecedented periods of the ability to thrive unencumbered.


As for Andrews and Mikakos, well, working on the inside of public health, I can see where their attentions were likely to be, and that was to ensure that there was enough PPE to go around.  I can tell you now the shortage of sanitiser, and PPE was noted as recently as May.  That means that irrespective of whom was running the hotel security, they were not going to be in adequate supply of said things.  Or would you guys prefer that it goes to security guards instead of health workers?

That whole event has been politicised, and left a very sour note in my mouth because with every Andrews argument I hear, I see information conveniently ignored because it doesnt fit the rhetoric.  You can see confirmation bias and hypocrisy in every argument.

FWIW, I dont agree with a proper lockdown now either, because frankly, I think that our hospitals are equipped to battle an onslaught, and only once we see a 100% rise in hospital admissions should we even start worrying.  We are currently at 40 admissions?  Thats not a hell of a lot really.  Closer to 100 and Id start to worry.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 13, 2020, 10:31:06 am
...but its Andrews' fault

You got that right.

The only reason we're in lock down now is that the quarantine processes were deficient.

Dan finds the Coronavirus important enough to put his dopey, ugly scone on TV every day but was incapable of ensuring adequate procedures (and the right human resources) were in place.

That is a fact.

You really think he wasn't aware that Pallas had hived off the security gig to some union cronies?

That would be naive in the extreme.

The buck stops with him. What the f... else is he doing?

You may disagree but that's the way the game works and should work. For all sides of politics.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 13, 2020, 10:42:19 am
Interesting Donald Trump has repeatedly stated it's only as bad as the Flu, then goes shopping to buy up the world's supply of Remdesivir.  :D  ::)

Words are meaningless, the real situation is being exposed by actions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 13, 2020, 11:29:40 am
The buck stops with him. What the f... else is he doing?

Nothing fly.  Save for total control and sanitised messages
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: rocky on July 13, 2020, 02:51:26 pm
You got that right.

The only reason we're in lock down now is that the quarantine processes were deficient.

Dan finds the Coronavirus important enough to put his dopey, ugly scone on TV every day but was incapable of ensuring adequate procedures (and the right human resources) were in place.

That is a fact.

You really think he wasn't aware that Pallas had hived off the security gig to some union cronies?

That would be naive in the extreme.

The buck stops with him. What the f... else is he doing?

You may disagree but that's the way the game works and should work. For all sides of politics.

That covers it perfectly. Thinks people will forget come election time. I don't even know what the other blokes name is but he'll be getting my vote before Dan. Even consider voting Green before him. No, only kidding. Nothing could make me vote Green.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on July 13, 2020, 03:49:32 pm
Andrew's has got a lot right and a lot wrong.

But  Andrew's isn't responsible for people's behaviour: the skank who supposedly swapped a bit for a shopping trip,  and the guard who participated should be held responsible for their actions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 13, 2020, 04:59:00 pm
That covers it perfectly. Thinks people will forget come election time. I don't even know what the other blokes name is but he'll be getting my vote before Dan. Even consider voting Green before him. No, only kidding. Nothing could make me vote Green.
Thats just a bridge too far.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 13, 2020, 05:05:45 pm
Sad to hear about Bachar Houli's mum in ICU.

SARS-CoV-2 doesn't play favourites.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on July 13, 2020, 05:56:53 pm
..and people think that the other mob would have done a better job than Andrews???  Really,  oh ROFLMAO...

O'Brien, Lobster Boy ET AL... Oh that's rich.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 13, 2020, 07:39:10 pm
https://7news.com.au/sport/afl/richmond-star-bachar-houli-reveals-his-mother-is-in-icu-battling-covid-19-c-1162758

Meanwhile, this time last week there were 0 cases in ICU.

This is why they are locking us down.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on July 13, 2020, 09:13:45 pm
..and people think that the other mob would have done a better job than Andrews???  Really,  oh ROFLMAO...

O'Brien, Lobster Boy ET AL... Oh that's rich.

Priceless Prof  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: jeza on July 13, 2020, 09:34:32 pm
At the end of the day, this biggest problem isn't the idea of putting security in that role.


That whole event has been politicised, and left a very sour note in my mouth because with every Andrews argument I hear, I see information conveniently ignored because it doesnt fit the rhetoric.  You can see confirmation bias and hypocrisy in every argument.

Disagree with most of your post but those 2 bits sh## the most.

The biggest problem was the approach to quarantine which lead to the appointment of security guards. Not one decision they made along the way made any sense then or now.

The bit about how this is somehow "politicised" is really poor. I voted for Dan and have been a big fan. That doesn't mean I'll blindly follow every dumb thing he does. So just because you're viewing everything through a "politicised" lense doesn't mean everybody else is.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 13, 2020, 10:04:53 pm

Disagree with most of your post but those 2 bits sh## the most.

The biggest problem was the approach to quarantine which lead to the appointment of security guards. Not one decision they made along the way made any sense then or now.

The bit about how this is somehow "politicised" is really poor. I voted for Dan and have been a big fan. That doesn't mean I'll blindly follow every dumb thing he does. So just because you're viewing everything through a "politicised" lense doesn't mean everybody else is.

Sorry jeza, you may not agree with me and thats fine but as someone who sees politicians as leeches on society I find it ironic that people are talking about him pandering to his crony union mates regarding the hotels.

I dont think you need to train someone to not let people out and not screw them during  pandemic.

The people in quarantine are more culpable than any guard or any policy.

You might agree you might not, but the actions of people and the outcome speaka for itself.

Fwiw there's still no concrete proof the hotels were the root cause of the issue.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 13, 2020, 10:14:23 pm
Andrew's has got a lot right and a lot wrong.

But  Andrew's isn't responsible for people's behaviour: the skank who supposedly swapped a bit for a shopping trip,  and the guard who participated should be held responsible for their actions.

No but he's certainly responsible for ensuring rock solid processes and policies are in place such that the virus didn't escape back into the community (from quarantine).

The CHO essentially reaffirmed today that it's highly likely all current cases stem from the quarantine breach.

Dan hasn't had a more important responsibility during his tenure.

And he royally f^%$d it up.

the blunder will cost the economy further billions, keeps 1000s of kids out of school and cause a whole heap more pain & grief on 10s of 1000s of people.

That's on him. If you wanna be the big kahuna you take the good and you take the bad.

In any private organisation, he'd be gone by now.

It's facile to say he can't be blamed for others' action. Even puerile.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 13, 2020, 10:15:29 pm
Sorry jeza, you may not agree with me and thats fine but as someone who sees politicians as leeches on society I find it ironic that people are talking about him pandering to his crony union mates regarding the hotels.

I dont think you need to train someone to not let people out and not screw them during  pandemic.

The people in quarantine are more culpable than any guard or any policy.

You might agree you might not, but the actions of people and the outcome speaka for itself.

Fwiw there's still no concrete proof the hotels were the root cause of the issue.

The CHO said it this evening.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 14, 2020, 07:32:45 am
The CHO said it this evening.
I'm not expecting them to talk about Ramadan Eid festival or the black lives matter rally but have a good hard look at the school with over 100 tests (al taqwa) and the demographics of the suburbs with the highest number of cases.

The media are not going to talk candidly about what happened and are ensuring the finger isnt pointed at certain minorities.

You could have had the toughest policies and procedures in place.  Quarantine dodging is on the people dodging  quarantine.  Its also worth mentioning that hotel staff tested positive.  Were they screwing quarantine people too?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 14, 2020, 08:19:21 am
If you are relatively fit and healthy, you are fine.
If you mean by fine, you'll survive, then OK.

However, if you mean by fine that you'll be health issue free after a dose of SARS-CoV-2, that is a very long stretch of the statistics.

As each week passes they are finding more and more related secondary health issues in people who have survived a major dose, meaning people who have been hospitalised or ICU which is about 3% of cases. That's a lot of people, and that doesn't mean people who just had to self-isolate at home at health effect free. A significant portion of surviving cases are going to be TPI, it's a scary thought for places like the USA, UK and Sweden.

Secondly, it looks like developing herd immunity and a vaccine is becoming more unlikely. All the maturing studies into the SARS-CoV-2 antibodies show the antibodies diminish greatly after about 3 months. That is the same as the common cold and why there is no vaccine for the common cold. The problem with SARS-CoV-2 is that a second infection 3 or 4 months later might be the knock down punch, after the first dose eroded some of the patients health the foundations relating to heart, lung and now even mental health.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 14, 2020, 01:32:52 pm
PS; If you want a sign of how petty and arbitrary this COVID-19 lockdown mentality is, search for Dannii Minogue quarantine, and suck down the Qld hypocrisy for the star who has returned from the one of the world's genuine COVID-19 hotspots!

She is obviously too pretty to have the plague, nobody will label her COVID Dannii!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 14, 2020, 01:41:14 pm
PS; If you want a sign of how petty and arbitrary this COVID-19 lockdown mentality is, search for Dannii Minogue quarantine, and suck down the Qld hypocrisy for the star who has returned from the one of the world's genuine COVID-19 hotspots!

She is obviously too pretty to have the plague, nobody will label her COVID Dannii!

Has Barnaby commented yet? 😡
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 14, 2020, 06:48:31 pm
No but he's certainly responsible for ensuring rock solid processes and policies are in place such that the virus didn't escape back into the community (from quarantine).

The CHO essentially reaffirmed today that it's highly likely all current cases stem from the quarantine breach.

Dan hasn't had a more important responsibility during his tenure.

And he royally f^%$d it up.

the blunder will cost the economy further billions, keeps 1000s of kids out of school and cause a whole heap more pain & grief on 10s of 1000s of people.

That's on him. If you wanna be the big kahuna you take the good and you take the bad.

In any private organisation, he'd be gone by now.

It's facile to say he can't be blamed for others' action. Even puerile.

Wow, the very definition of scapegoating right there.

In your 2nd sentence you say, 'The CHO essentially reaffirmed today that it's highly likely all current cases stem from the quarantine breach.' Then you proceed to blame and demonise one person, in this instance, the state Premier. Talk about a contradiction that swiftly unravel's your argument.

Put another way, who put the quarantine in place? The Premier. Who broke the quarantine? The c0ckheads. Who's to blame? The c0ckheads. Fair suck of the sav, FB.

I understand that people have political allegiances -- too often blind allegiances -- and salivate over the opportunity to blame someone other than their mob for any trouble... but sheesh! This is why I refuse to have any political allegiance... lowers IQ points by a big margin almost immediately. Retaining objectivity and rational, logical thinking should be the goal of everyone, especially around election time.

The investigation will ideally reveal any stuff ups from Andrews or anyone else in his govt or in the administration of the security company or any shenanigans between unions and govt. But blaming Andrews for everything at the moments... holy mackerel... you probably also think Andrews was the other shooter from the grassy knoll!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 14, 2020, 06:59:02 pm
Wow, the very definition of scapegoating right there.

In your 2nd sentence you say, 'The CHO essentially reaffirmed today that it's highly likely all current cases stem from the quarantine breach.' Then you proceed to blame and demonise one person, in this instance, the state Premier. Talk about a contradiction that swiftly unravel's your argument.

Put another way, who put the quarantine in place? The Premier. Who broke the quarantine? The c0ckheads. Who's to blame? The c0ckheads. Fair suck of the sav, FB.

I understand that people have political allegiances -- too often blind allegiances -- and salivate over the opportunity to blame someone other than their mob for any trouble... but sheesh! This is why I refuse to have any political allegiance... lowers IQ points by a big margin almost immediately. Retaining objectivity and rational, logical thinking should be the goal of everyone, especially around election time.

The investigation will ideally reveal any stuff ups from Andrews or anyone else in his govt or in the administration of the security company or any shenanigans between unions and govt. But blaming Andrews for everything at the moments... holy mackerel... you probably also think Andrews was the other shooter from the grassy knoll!

That's just silly spin Baggers. Demonising, get real.

The bloke gets paid $441k a year to make the big calls - so he gets the kudos when it goes right and also gets the flak when it goes pear shaped - as it well and truly has done here.

Did you read or hear today (as I understand it):

1. They were aware of potential outbreaks in the Carlton towers many weeks back - and did sfa;
2. they were advised on Day 1 of the quarantine gig that the arrangements in place were questionable;
3. the initial recommendation made to use ADF or others i.e. police was rejected (or ignored).

It appears the ONLY reason there is a lock down now - 6 weeks - is because of the quarantine fiasco.

If I were in his shoes, I would resign. Simple.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 14, 2020, 07:05:24 pm
Wow, the very definition of scapegoating right there.

In your 2nd sentence you say, 'The CHO essentially reaffirmed today that it's highly likely all current cases stem from the quarantine breach.' Then you proceed to blame and demonise one person, in this instance, the state Premier. Talk about a contradiction that swiftly unravel's your argument.

Put another way, who put the quarantine in place? The Premier. Who broke the quarantine? The c0ckheads. Who's to blame? The c0ckheads. Fair suck of the sav, FB.

I understand that people have political allegiances -- too often blind allegiances -- and salivate over the opportunity to blame someone other than their mob for any trouble... but sheesh! This is why I refuse to have any political allegiance... lowers IQ points by a big margin almost immediately. Retaining objectivity and rational, logical thinking should be the goal of everyone, especially around election time.

The investigation will ideally reveal any stuff ups from Andrews or anyone else in his govt or in the administration of the security company or any shenanigans between unions and govt. But blaming Andrews for everything at the moments... holy mackerel... you probably also think Andrews was the other shooter from the grassy knoll!

ps he could pull a Dimma and sack all the relevant ministers (assistant coaches)!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 14, 2020, 07:47:46 pm
And a little more shade...

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/hotel-infection-data-kept-secret-as-opposition-calls-for-ministers-to-be-dumped-20200714-p55by9.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 14, 2020, 08:26:27 pm
And a little more shade...

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/hotel-infection-data-kept-secret-as-opposition-calls-for-ministers-to-be-dumped-20200714-p55by9.html
This is getting bad if it already wasn't a s h i t show.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 14, 2020, 08:36:15 pm
That's just silly spin Baggers. Demonising, get real.

The bloke gets paid $441k a year to make the big calls - so he gets the kudos when it goes right and also gets the flak when it goes pear shaped - as it well and truly has done here.

Did you read or hear today (as I understand it):

1. They were aware of potential outbreaks in the Carlton towers many weeks back - and did sfa;
2. they were advised on Day 1 of the quarantine gig that the arrangements in place were questionable;
3. the initial recommendation made to use ADF or others i.e. police was rejected (or ignored).

It appears the ONLY reason there is a lock down now - 6 weeks - is because of the quarantine fiasco.

If I were in his shoes, I would resign. Simple.
I have to agree with this. The quarantine debacle was Andrews being pig headed and keeping his union mates happy. If he listened to the PM and took the offer of ADF and Fed Pol (like all the other states did), there would be no quarantine debacle. Simple. Yes the corkheads in quarantine did the wrong thing, but they wouldnt have tried that on for size if they were starting a soldier or a copper in the face.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 14, 2020, 10:09:07 pm
And a little more shade...

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/hotel-infection-data-kept-secret-as-opposition-calls-for-ministers-to-be-dumped-20200714-p55by9.html

March 28...

March 28 the hospital i was working at was trying to figure out how much PPE was required.  We hadn't even started proper lockdowns.

The calls for the defence force happened when? 

Theres a lot of creative timeline going on.  There have been some errors but none bigger than people acting like they couldn't give a stuff about anyone else.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 15, 2020, 08:11:29 am
Yes Thry, I fell your pain.

The critics use the Joseph Goebbels approach to information handling, which paraphrased goes something like this;

"If you say a lie often enough and loud enough eventually it becomes truth, everyone will believe it, even yourself!"

A wartime propaganda technique now heavily adopted by "The Donald"!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 15, 2020, 08:25:35 am
The media are not going to talk candidly about what happened and are ensuring the finger isnt pointed at certain minorities.
I've overheard a rumour the police had already traced the major trigger for this outbreak to a family gathering several weeks ago, a group of several dozen people at a party and the virus has now had a 100% hit rate on attendees. But a lid is being kept on it because the police already have enough crap to deal with at the moment.

At first I thought the idea of the virus achieving 100% transmission with a diverse age group and gathering as large as 40 or 50 people was bogus, but there are now contact tracing reports coming from around the globe of similar events. It seems that genetic susceptibility plays a huge part in this virus transmission, and if you've got the right (or wrong) genes you are in the gun. In this case the family have 100% infection, but not one family member was an ICU case despite having a number of elderly types at the party. In effect they are/were a family of super-spreaders, I say were because weeks later they are probably not infectious anymore. Although we know from the case of Richard Wilkins you can remain asymptomatic and infectious for much longer than 14 days.

The right wing media factions will tear the politicians a new one if enough of the facts get into the public domain. I presume the media are either sitting on the information for the most explosive moment, or are yet to get it all fully verified. But it is being discussed behind the scenes almost daily, and I suspect they are waiting for a legal team to tick it off.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 15, 2020, 08:55:29 am
^^

From where I sit, all the focus is on businesses and economy.  Thing is, most small businesses are being propped up by government stimulus.  For the right wingers to be going this hard, its the major players that are probably the ones screaming loudest about the damage being done, because their losses are amplified by lockdowns.  Joe Average is likely getting a honeymoon from most of his creditors courtesy of the government.  Sure, this will hurt a lot of entrepeneurs, and most of the ones that only started up recently, but the movement is far too large for anyone but the rich to be the ones pulling these strings, and letting people power do the screaming for them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 15, 2020, 09:16:43 am
The world was/is drowning in debt. I would be surprised if this pandemic does not eventually precipitate some severe austerity measures in an attempt to achieve  some form of economic reset.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 15, 2020, 09:27:13 am
That's just silly spin Baggers. Demonising, get real.

The bloke gets paid $441k a year to make the big calls - so he gets the kudos when it goes right and also gets the flak when it goes pear shaped - as it well and truly has done here.

Did you read or hear today (as I understand it):

1. They were aware of potential outbreaks in the Carlton towers many weeks back - and did sfa;
2. they were advised on Day 1 of the quarantine gig that the arrangements in place were questionable;
3. the initial recommendation made to use ADF or others i.e. police was rejected (or ignored).

It appears the ONLY reason there is a lock down now - 6 weeks - is because of the quarantine fiasco.

If I were in his shoes, I would resign. Simple.

Ah, FB, you're jumping at shadows young fella.

Andrews has said a number of times in interviews that the buck stops with him and if there are stuff ups, he'll wear it, as he should.

His pay packet is irrelevant. I gave up long ago believing that the size of someone's pay-packet had a direct correlation with their abilities and competency re responsibilities. What matters is that he is the boss, has got to be across everything and making sound decisions... if the investigation discovers he stuffed up, then he can FO.

The newspapers are full of rumours, he said she said they said stuff. Click bait. Do yourself a favour, don't buy into anything of the media scuttlebutt until it becomes a proven fact. Of course there were some with doubts about this that and the other... always is with every decision, and these people get very clever when it seems they may have been right. I make it a habit to ignore just about all Murdoch media (malcontent and bullsh1te HQ) and to take the rest with a massive grain of salt. Murdoch himself said decades ago that he has no interest in the news, only how to make it entertaining (which means inflammatory, sensational etc.,) to make more money.

As for thinking the ADF watching over the towers would have worked wonders... you've obviously not served in the military. As DJC also pointed out you can bet there would have been more rooting and other sexual favours going on with soldiers than with the private security company - you can take that to the bank.

For the record, I personally believe that all our state Premiers, to date, and the Prime Minister have done a commendable job... regardless of what side of the ideological fence they find themselves, especially in comparison to many other countries. We're better led than most. Not perfect, but sheesh some of the cr@p going on in other countries is head spinning.

Personally I believe that this concerning increase in Victoria can be put down to one thing... humans not committing themselves to quarantine and to other preventative measures (masks, sanitizing hands regularly, distancing and so on). Scapegoating one individual is fruitless.

Believe it or not there is still a considerable number of people who think this C-19 thing is a hoax, or not as bad as everyone thinks, or it won't get them, or it's just a bad flu, or they just don't give a cr@p about anyone other than themselves... our leaders can only set the game plan, if people decide to ignore it then, well, we get what we've got. And it doesn't take many to fck it up for the rest of us. Most folks are rippers and doing their best... including our pollies.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 15, 2020, 09:56:05 am
Ah, FB, you're jumping at shadows young fella.

Andrews has said a number of times in interviews that the buck stops with him and if there are stuff ups, he'll wear it, as he should.

His pay packet is irrelevant. I gave up long ago believing that the size of someone's pay-packet had a direct correlation with their abilities and competency re responsibilities. What matters is that he is the boss, has got to be across everything and making sound decisions... if the investigation discovers he stuffed up, then he can FO.

The newspapers are full of rumours, he said she said they said stuff. Click bait. Do yourself a favour, don't buy into anything of the media scuttlebutt until it becomes a proven fact. Of course there were some with doubts about this that and the other... always is with every decision, and these people get very clever when it seems they may have been right. I make it a habit to ignore just about all Murdoch media (malcontent and bullsh1te HQ) and to take the rest with a massive grain of salt. Murdoch himself said decades ago that he has no interest in the news, only how to make it entertaining (which means inflammatory, sensational etc.,) to make more money.

As for thinking the ADF watching over the towers would have worked wonders... you've obviously not served in the military. As DJC also pointed out you can bet there would have been more rooting and other sexual favours going on with soldiers than with the private security company - you can take that to the bank.

For the record, I personally believe that all our state Premiers, to date, and the Prime Minister have done a commendable job... regardless of what side of the ideological fence they find themselves, especially in comparison to many other countries. We're better led than most. Not perfect, but sheesh some of the cr@p going on in other countries is head spinning.

Personally I believe that this concerning increase in Victoria can be put down to one thing... humans not committing themselves to quarantine and to other preventative measures (masks, sanitizing hands regularly, distancing and so on). Scapegoating one individual is fruitless.

Believe it or not there is still a considerable number of people who think this C-19 thing is a hoax, or not as bad as everyone thinks, or it won't get them, or it's just a bad flu, or they just don't give a cr@p about anyone other than themselves... our leaders can only set the game plan, if people decide to ignore it then, well, we get what we've got. And it doesn't take many to fck it up for the rest of us. Most folks are rippers and doing their best... including our pollies.

Funny stuff Baggers, playing the condescension card. I thought you'd know better.

Scape goating?

There you go again...facile.

You haven't grasped the fact that I'd be saying exactly the same stuff if it was a Liberal Premier?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 15, 2020, 10:01:46 am
I have to agree with this. The quarantine debacle was Andrews being pig headed and keeping his union mates happy. If he listened to the PM and took the offer of ADF and Fed Pol (like all the other states did), there would be no quarantine debacle. Simple. Yes the corkheads in quarantine did the wrong thing, but they wouldnt have tried that on for size if they were starting a soldier or a copper in the face.

And releasing punters back into the community without getting them tested?

Laughable. Fawlty Towers stuff.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 15, 2020, 10:02:32 am
The world was/is drowning in debt. I would be surprised if this pandemic does not eventually precipitate some severe austerity measures in an attempt to achieve  some form of economic reset.
Yes, it's entirely possible unending growth has come to an inevitable end long before it's predicted limit. It's obvious unending growth is impossible and untenable to maintain, but it is a not in my lifetime problem, and yet!!!!

There are a couple of global precincts/districts that will be laughing all the way to the bank at the moment, having weened themselves of economic growth and GDP measures long long ago!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 15, 2020, 10:05:22 am
Funny stuff Baggers, playing the condescension card. I thought you'd know better.

Scape goating?

There you go again...facile.

You haven't grasped the fact that I'd be saying exactly the same stuff if it was a Liberal Premier?
I gather you do get the irony of your comments!

I didn't read any politics into Baggers comments, I gather many others won't either, in fact they come across as bipartisan, but you want to find a political or social conspiracy even where none exists. So you resort to bait and switch sledging whenever the innuendo and rumour you post gets questioned. The more you behave like this the more your thoughts and political position is exposed, I get it, maybe we get it, you love anarchy!

Most of us just want everybody to be safe and well, and the economic cost of achieving that is largely irrelevant. Having a fat bank account, a profitable business, a nice superannuation fund and cheap petrol, doesn't do much good for you if you are dead!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 15, 2020, 10:17:05 am
I want to post some support for our doctors and nurses, to all the medical and hospital staff as well as those in our GP clinics. They are superstars and heroes, as heroic as any war veteran.

The media paint some ideological picture that we are good or superior at dealing with this clinic, but reality is we've just been lucky because locally we didn't have a Trump type in control. Someone who's inaction has cost more lives than a war!

So far locally demand for critical care hasn't outstripped the resources available, but there is a very good chance that is about to be tested and Thry will probably confirm they are gearing up for that right now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 15, 2020, 10:28:50 am
If I offered everyone here a 100 chamber revolver as an analogy to getting a SARS-CoV-2 infection, and 1 single bullet in analogy to deaths from SARS-CoV-2 infections, for a personal game of Russian roulette, nobody would take it.

Because only morons ignore that the win changes nothing and the loss changes everything, and I don't think anybody here is a moron!

And that's ignoring that a bunch of the other chambers are not empty but contain non-lethal disfiguring rounds.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 15, 2020, 10:32:08 am
I gather you do get the irony of your comments!

I didn't read any politics into Baggers comments, I gather many others won't either, in fact they come across as bipartisan, but you want to find a political or social conspiracy even where none exists. So you resort to bait and switch sledging whenever the innuendo and rumour you post gets questioned. The more you behave like this the more your thoughts and political position is exposed, I get it, maybe we get it, you love anarchy!

Most of us just want everybody to be safe and well, and the economic cost of achieving that is largely irrelevant. Having a fat bank account, a profitable business, a nice superannuation fund and cheap petrol, doesn't do much good for you if you are dead!

If you're going to try to take the piss LP, glance in the mirror first?

This from the guy who quotes Goebbels then runs with the standard anti Trump card.

Political or social conspiracy? Bait and switch? Again, facile.

No, I'm just pissed about a massive blunder which no one is prepared to take any responsibility for....that affects all of us!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 15, 2020, 10:33:37 am
If you're going to try to take the piss LP, glance in the mirror first?

This from the guy who quotes Goebbels then runs with the standard anti Trump card.

Political or social conspiracy? Bait and switch? Again, facile.

No, I'm just pissed about a massive blunder which no one is prepared to take any responsibility for....that affects all of us!
We can just keep reflecting your comments, it's the best way to deal with tantrums or bullies!

Most of us do not take it personally, because your assertions are without foundation, we get you offer nothing but rhetorical loops and paranoia, it's standard practise on the internet to demand that the people debugging your posts prove it over and over again, then ignore the proof no matter how relevant, definitive or unequivocal that debunking may be.

You must see the relevance of the Goebbels reference, given you posted multiple links to same basic retrospective meta-data analysis studies. 500% wasted effort your your behalf!

On Trump, perhaps we should just all retweet a game show hosts COVID-19 commentary, and cut out the middle man?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 15, 2020, 10:59:26 am
Meanwhile, back in the real world.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/coronavirus-black-lives-matter-protest-linked-to-tower-cluster/news-story/197ffe79f3e0044be2ee1495c5708364
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 15, 2020, 11:12:13 am
Meanwhile, back in the real world.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/coronavirus-black-lives-matter-protest-linked-to-tower-cluster/news-story/197ffe79f3e0044be2ee1495c5708364

Good one, FB. You say 'back in the real world,' then quote an article from a News Corp rag (probably find that the person at the BLM rally who passed it on -- if true -- got it from a gal from Qld who got it from a fella from a boat who got it from...) There's a sad bloke who writes for the HUN called Andrew Bolt... I think you'd love him.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 15, 2020, 11:16:47 am
I want to post some support for our doctors and nurses, to all the medical and hospital staff as well as those in our GP clinics. They are superstars and heroes, as heroic as any war veteran.

The media paint some ideological picture that we are good or superior at dealing with this clinic, but reality is we've just been lucky because locally we didn't have a Trump type in control. Someone who's inaction has cost more lives than a war!

So far locally demand for critical care hasn't outstripped the resources available, but there is a very good chance that is about to be tested and Thry will probably confirm they are gearing up for that right now.

Great acknowledgment, Spotted One. The medical care in this country is 2nd to none... in fact, to date, our survival rates for C-19 are at the world pinnacle. Yes, our medical people are absolute bloody champs... and let's not forget that when this is well and truly under control these folks will need some deep care as well... burn-out and vicarious PTSD will need to be addressed. Wrapped you brought up this topic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 15, 2020, 11:53:52 am
Good one, FB. You say 'back in the real world,' then quote an article from a News Corp rag (probably find that the person at the BLM rally who passed it on -- if true -- got it from a gal from Qld who got it from a fella from a boat who got it from...) There's a sad bloke who writes for the HUN called Andrew Bolt... I think you'd love him.
We can sort of see the writing on the wall for these types, they seem to fall within two categories, The Best of British Officers, and The Cat Callers.

The British Officers are always the ones always calling for a charge but they never lead it, they always command from the safety of the home fortifications while musing about the horrors of war! Their actions do not match words, and when things go wrong it's due to a shortfall in grunt fortitude or a failure of logistics.

The Cat Callers offer derision, they may even provoke a riot to create dissent, but they sob like children for support when their behaviour catches up with them. When the truncheons come out they are always claiming persecution. They are always looking for someone to rescue them, they always look for others to blame for circumstances of their own doing. They may get infected first, then they'll spread the disease to others who have been trying to do the right thing, before they try to lay the blame for their circumstance on some other poor dupe. If they survive they claim it was nothing of consequence, and that those who died around them only have themselves to blame. The Cat Callers are anarchists and finger-pointers.

For those who notice, yes I'm using inclusive language deliberately.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 15, 2020, 12:25:45 pm
Good one, FB. You say 'back in the real world,' then quote an article from a News Corp rag (probably find that the person at the BLM rally who passed it on -- if true -- got it from a gal from Qld who got it from a fella from a boat who got it from...) There's a sad bloke who writes for the HUN called Andrew Bolt... I think you'd love him.

Cheap shot Baggers.

Don't engage if that's your best.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 15, 2020, 12:28:48 pm
There's no doubt that, for the largest part, the nation owes the front liners our thanks and far ahead of some woeful political bungling and mismanagement.  The cost of all of this is gonna hurt     



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 15, 2020, 12:39:20 pm
To those claiming this is all Dans fault because he put inept security guards in charge. THink about it this way,

If people listened to the advice he has given. Stay home. Social distance. Wear masks. etc.

There would be zero cases.

People don't take responsibility for themselves.....and thats dans fault?
The security guard is apparantly free of blame in the eyes of most......somehow its dans fault.

Everyone knows what to do.
People are not doing it.

Great line from Men In Black.
"A person is smart. People are dumb"

Dans 'issue'? He looks at us as individuals rather than as a collective.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 15, 2020, 12:55:07 pm
To those claiming this is all Dans fault because he put inept security guards in charge. THink about it this way,

If people listened to the advice he has given. Stay home. Social distance. Wear masks. etc.

There would be zero cases.

People don't take responsibility for themselves.....and thats dans fault?
The security guard is apparantly free of blame in the eyes of most......somehow its dans fault.

Everyone knows what to do.
People are not doing it.

Great line from Men In Black.
"A person is smart. People are dumb"

Dans 'issue'? He looks at us as individuals rather than as a collective.

That's naff Kruddler.

Of course the security crew are at fault - that's beyond obvious.

That doesn't negate the government's culpability.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 15, 2020, 01:20:48 pm
That's naff Kruddler.

Of course the security crew are at fault - that's beyond obvious.

That doesn't negate the government's culpability.

You're not getting it, FB. No, the security guards were maybe complicit and perhaps incompetent BUT it is still the responsibility of each and every citizen to NOT want to break quarantine guidelines. It is no more simple than that. Everyone plays ball, C-19 comes under control.

Are you culpable if one of your subordinates deliberately and willfully disobeys your instructions?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 15, 2020, 01:22:14 pm
That's naff Kruddler.

Of course the security crew are at fault - that's beyond obvious.

That doesn't negate the government's culpability.

....yet still no mention about who the security guard did the deed with.

2 people (at least) to blame before you get to Dan Andrews.
I'm tipping Dan Andrews didn't hire the security guard personally either.
Did he personally hire the company who hired the security guard?
How many people in the 'chain of command' do we need to go through before we get to Dan Andrews?

Ultimately the buck stops at the top, but all this hysteria is like trying to fire the CEO of a global bank because some work experience kid lost a $1 coin under the desk when counting out some cash at your local bank.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on July 15, 2020, 01:33:27 pm
I blame the selfishness of some people. If the people told to quarantine for 14 days after returning from overseas could be trusted to do so we wouldn't need any security guards at the hotels. Same type of thing still happening at a large scale, kfc parties etc.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on July 15, 2020, 01:51:48 pm
Why all this obfuscation?  Dan has overseen this mess.  The buck stops with him, he admits it, as he should.

Read billions of bucks and many peoples long term health and lives even.

Quarantine should be just that, quarantine. Not difficult to predict that people would break the rules so no point blaming them.  Its the processes put in place that have let us down badly. Other states got it right so it wasn't that hard.

Dan talked about complacency but it seems that he, the health department and other officials who ignored warnings were guilty of exactly that.  Allowing the BLM protest attests it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 15, 2020, 02:08:01 pm
To those claiming this is all Dans fault because he put inept security guards in charge. THink about it this way,

If people listened to the advice he has given. Stay home. Social distance. Wear masks. etc.

There would be zero cases.

People don't take responsibility for themselves.....and thats dans fault?
The security guard is apparantly free of blame in the eyes of most......somehow its dans fault.

Everyone knows what to do.
People are not doing it.

Great line from Men In Black.
"A person is smart. People are dumb"

Dans 'issue'? He looks at us as individuals rather than as a collective.
The security guards were as dumb as dog crape, the person who put them into that position is even dumber.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 15, 2020, 02:13:13 pm
Quarantine should be just that, quarantine. Not difficult to predict that people would break the rules so no point blaming them.  Its the processes put in place that have let us down badly. Other states got it right so it wasn't that hard.
It's quarantine not jail.

I heard a report from one of the top brass police that suggested they didn't even officially have the power to enforce it! the laws have been watered down under human rights agendas.

If you want an idea for why stuff like this is so hard in Victoria go ask Julian Burnside or Susan Carland!

Did you notice Dannii Minogue is being guarded by a "Trusted 3rd Party" under an industry formulated quarantine scheme, all ticked off by the Qld state government and medical officers, as was the Vic plan. "Trusted 3rd Party", Industry Plan, read "Security Guards"!

btw., The Qld Health Minister freely offered a list of critical industries that have an agreed exemption under an industry wide plan.
Entertainment! (Critical Industry!) :o
Mining (The current drop in carbon emissions is intolerable, don't mention the war!)
Health
Military (Hunting illegal Victorians)
Police
Emergency Services (Blocking border crossings with volunteer fire fighters!)
Politicians
Bureaucracy
Transport
Fishing (Welcome to the reef whalers and Nth Korean fishermen)
Tourism (Who the feck is coming?)
Agriculture (Can't do without our 457 Visa holders, profits will dive!)

In other words, about 1/2 the Qld population it seems!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 15, 2020, 02:21:15 pm
Part of Dan's job imo would be to protect the people of Victoria from threats to their well-being, posed in various forms including pandemics. All likely risks should be assessed and mitigated in provision of that protection, including the one of people ignoring or under-estimating the threat and not willingly following directions, a not unheard of phenomenon. The security at quarantine sites has been clearly shown to be inadequate i.e. was a failure - a failure of risk assessment, a failure of decision making and a failure of process. This all reefs back to the Victorian government of which Daniel Andrews is the leader.

I'm not a particular fan of his - he has overseen some good stuff and some bad stuff imo but this has to go down as a bad one imho.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 15, 2020, 02:23:12 pm
I'm not a particular fan of his - he has overseen some good stuff and some bad stuff imo but this has to go down as a bad one imho.
I'd say just like Scotty from Marketing, they are on a hiding to nothing because this is a battle they can only win with the committed help of the general public, and it's being proven without doubt that the general public has far too many cockheads!

Even with our relatively low per-capita cockhead count, compared to say the USA, UK or Sweden, we are still in for a world of pain!

It's funny that some laud SA, WA, Qld or NSW and even NZ as prime examples of good management, but in doing so wilfully ignore the risk of going the early crow!

We have 250 million people an hour or two off the north coast, a very large percentage of which might be in big big trouble in the coming months and well be here as a Western nation almost powerless to help.

I'm with Thry, this is so far from over that as yet it has barely started!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 15, 2020, 02:30:29 pm
I'd say just like Scotty from Marketing, they are on a hiding to nothing because this is a battle they can only win with the committed help of the general public, and it's being proven without doubt that the general public has far too many cockheads!

It's funny that some laud SA, WA, Qld or NSW and even NZ as prime examples, but in doing so wilfully ignore the risks of going the early crow!

I'm with Thry, this is so far from over that as yet it has barely started!

Maybe so but you have to understand and cater for that in developing a solution to address the problem. No point rolling out a solution which may work fine if everyone was of high IQ and was capable of understanding and following directions. If you know that's not the case then you need a more robust solution to cater for that surely? "The operation went great but unfortunately the patient died"?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 15, 2020, 02:34:28 pm
Part of Dan's job imo would be to protect the people of Victoria from threats to their well-being, posed in various forms including pandemics. All likely risks should be assessed and mitigated in provision of that protection, including the one of people ignoring or under-estimating the threat and not willingly following directions, a not unheard of phenomenon. The security at quarantine sites has been clearly shown to be inadequate i.e. was a failure - a failure of risk assessment, a failure of decision making and a failure of process. This all reefs back to the Victorian government of which Daniel Andrews is the leader.

I'm not a particular fan of his - he has overseen some good stuff and some bad stuff imo but this has to go down as a bad one imho.

Sure, and heads will roll for it. But there are a lot of people under him that had a say in that matter that should be made accountable before it ever gets to him in this instance.

if we sacked every politician anytime something went wrong at any level, we'd never have any politicians left.
They oversee hundreds of projects, which employ thousands upon thousands of people. Some of those people are going to stuff up at some stage (nobody is pefect). So because there is 1 person at the top of that chain, he should go?

As i said before, its an overreaction to an emotional topic.
If 1 letter from Australia Post goes missing, do we sack the CEO? He is ultimately in charge....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 15, 2020, 02:45:23 pm
Sure, and heads will roll for it. But there are a lot of people under him that had a say in that matter that should be made accountable before it ever gets to him in this instance.

if we sacked every politician anytime something went wrong at any level, we'd never have any politicians left.
They oversee hundreds of projects, which employ thousands upon thousands of people. Some of those people are going to stuff up at some stage (nobody is pefect). So because there is 1 person at the top of that chain, he should go?

As i said before, its an overreaction to an emotional topic.
If 1 letter from Australia Post goes missing, do we sack the CEO? He is ultimately in charge....


I didn't say anything about sacking him, at this stage,  - but certainly mark this one down in the negative column of his ledger. Also, I think this stuff up is slightly more serious than losing a letter - prolongation of this lock down is likely to cost many millions of dollars and result in thousands of people possibly losing their livelihoods in the form of their business or job. Certainly something that will no doubt generate plenty of emotion, but an overreaction?? I don't think so - answers are required and as soon as possible.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 15, 2020, 02:51:42 pm
Maybe so but you have to understand and cater for that in developing a solution to address the problem. No point rolling out a solution which may work fine if everyone was of high IQ and was capable of understanding and following directions. If you know that's not the case then you need a more robust solution to cater for that surely? "The operation went great but unfortunately the patient died"?
If they do what they must to stop the cockheads many will vote them out for being totalitarian!

They may as well though, because ironically they get accused of that as well, there is no middle ground in the commentary. They are either deficient or excessive!

Although politicians do have a lot of stupid stuff to answer for, in this case the problem is clearly the people.

A passive protest or wilful disobedience in the best Ghandi style won't stop this virus, it'll roll right over you like a Tienanmen Square tank! In fact it'll probably pluck you from the herd like a perimeter straggler!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 15, 2020, 03:02:18 pm
Without this post being part of the over arching debate.

The hotels were used to keep them in paid employment (note, hospital beds are more expensive than a 5 star hotel).

The security guards employed by the hotels are employed by whom, government or the hotels?  Who is responsible to ensure they are doing the job, the hotels or the government? Why are the hotels not wearing the heat in this debate?

Does anyone recall the sensationalist media surrounding the poor people locked in their rooms and not able to leave?  So on one hand they werent allowed to do anything, and on the other they broke the rules and spread the virus wantonly.

Finally, there is a lot of scuttlebutt floating around about how this all has come about, but at one point I seem to recall a bloke caught a shuttle from melbourne airport to frankston and was over heard talking about it on the phone.  Does this fit the timeline of the quarantine hotels having security issues?

Theres so much misinformation floating around, and its all out there trying to protect billion dollar business and industries, not the person getting job keeper to keep their coffee shop open.








Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 15, 2020, 05:32:03 pm
I didn't say anything about sacking him, at this stage,  - but certainly mark this one down in the negative column of his ledger. Also, I think this stuff up is slightly more serious than losing a letter - prolongation of this lock down is likely to cost many millions of dollars and result in thousands of people possibly losing their livelihoods in the form of their business or job. Certainly something that will no doubt generate plenty of emotion, but an overreaction?? I don't think so - answers are required and as soon as possible.

Personally i think he has handled the whole situation (this incident aside) remarkably well.

You may not be calling for his sacking, but plenty are. There was a heated debate at work the other day in which someone threatened to quit over someones politcal stance......essentially escalated from a anti/pro Dan Andrews debate. There are a lot of feelings over him, before, during and after the security incident.

So i'd call that an overreaction....social media has some others backing that up too.

Personally, i tend to stay away from political debates but the anger i've seen directed at Dan Andrews over this incident has led me to try and speak some common sense on the matter.

As an example of some anti-Andrews commentary i've heard
1. Where is Dan Andrews in all of this? He is staying silent and needs to speak up/out!
2. Bloody Dan Andrews is spending all his time in front of the camera, no wonder he can't control some security guards.

Completely contradictory, and he's on a hiding to nothing.

For some perspective, see one D. Trump and the 'mighty' U.S. of A.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 15, 2020, 06:03:30 pm
Maybe so but you have to understand and cater for that in developing a solution to address the problem. No point rolling out a solution which may work fine if everyone was of high IQ and was capable of understanding and following directions. If you know that's not the case then you need a more robust solution to cater for that surely? "The operation went great but unfortunately the patient died"?

I get where you're coming from Fluffy One... I think. But there is hardly much more that govt could do other than a total lockdown ensuring that those who, for whatever reason, just won't co-operate are kept under lock and key and for that you'd need all the military and to probably double the police force AND a Communist China approach. It seems in the less populated states you can almost absorb the c0ckhead factor but in cities of 4 mil plus... holy mackerel.

Most folks get it and are co-operating. I reckon the govts (Fed and State) are trying the balancing act of people health and economic health. In the name of economic health lockdown's aren't as stringent as they could be. Plus there's the cost of actually enforcing and policing a lockdown - when again you get economic vs human cost. I actually feel for the pollies regardless of what side they represent... they're on a hiding to nothing no matter what they do - it's either too much or not enough or not done right or spending too much money or costing too much money.

This is ours and their first time dealing with such a serious pandemic since 100 years ago... there might be some learning as they go. They are all following the advice from their medical bosses, then trying to pay for it. Tough gig when you're surrounded by journalists who all know better on how it should be done.

As I've said before, I reckon, under the circumstances they're all doing their best and are doing a good job.

Only anecdotes but here on the Island only about 2 weeks ago we had some holidaymakers flouting quarantine guidelines by having secret backyard parties and so on. Every day Aussies. We had a bunch a few doors down and we just couldn't believe it and before you ask... all Aussies, no English is their 2nd or 3rd language stuff going on. The one thing I did notice, it was younger people having the clandestine parties... almost showing off. And only today I spoke with a friend from Prahran who said she couldn't believe the number of people, again younger ones, going about their business in the shopping precincts as if nothing is wrong... not a mask in sight! So what do you do about these people who know better but just don't seem to give a cr@p? You can't hang a Premier or a Prime Minister for not being able to control these clowns, they can only get advice from those who know (medical and police) and implement it, the rest is up to civic compliance.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on July 15, 2020, 06:16:22 pm
Do we need a new thread
 :o  ::)
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/mongolian-teenager-dies-of-bubonic-plague-caught-from-infected-marmot/ar-BB16KKT7?ocid=msedgdhp
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 15, 2020, 06:54:39 pm
@Baggers

Baggers I take the view that either we a fighting a serious and life-threatening pandemic or we are not. If we are, then the government's obligation is to take all necessary steps to enforce the measures they have deemed necessary. If they aren't prepared to do that then just stop their bleating and wear whatever the outcome and be judged on that. All else is just hot air imo. Let's see what stage 4 may bring?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 16, 2020, 09:39:24 am
@Baggers

Baggers I take the view that either we a fighting a serious and life-threatening pandemic or we are not. If we are, then the government's obligation is to take all necessary steps to enforce the measures they have deemed necessary. If they aren't prepared to do that then just stop their bleating and wear whatever the outcome and be judged on that. All else is just hot air imo. Let's see what stage 4 may bring?


And therein lies the quandry.

The govts have medicos telling them one thing (lockdowns etc) to save lives and prevent flooding ICUs and economists telling them the dire cost if they go down that road too far and/or for too long. And the balancing act is proving precarious. The only nation that seems to have gotten it 100% right (aided by a smaller population) has been the Kiwis and they opted for the hard lockdown over an extended period and virtually shutting their borders. Result? Virtually no C-19. And we now have states here following suit, especially the closing of boarders to prevent all those diseased Melbournians and Sydneysiders.

Getting pollies and businesses to go hard either way as you say in your first sentence is a very reasonable but a polarising view. Because, ultimately... committing to one approach or the other, totally (a la NZ and now many of our states) either stops C-19 in its tracks but results in a massive financial burden/loss, or results in higher fatalities but is better for business.

So far I've tried to see it from both sides and to reason why the govts are doing what they're doing and I believe their approach is understandable (Fed & State) with only one fatal flaw in their strategy - trusting the general public to adhere to instructions to limit/prevent the C-19 spread. Maybe it's time to go much harder with quarantine rules, much harder.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2020, 10:19:11 am
Do we need a new thread
 :o  ::)
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/mongolian-teenager-dies-of-bubonic-plague-caught-from-infected-marmot/ar-BB16KKT7?ocid=msedgdhp
 (https://www.covermesongs.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Ben-500x501.jpg)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2020, 10:24:26 am
So far I've tried to see it from both sides and to reason why the govts are doing what they're doing and I believe their approach is understandable (Fed & State) with only one fatal flaw in their strategy - trusting the general public to adhere to instructions to limit/prevent the C-19 spread. Maybe it's time to go much harder with quarantine rules, much harder.
Might economies that decouple from GDP as a measure of economic health actually have a chance of profiting from this situation? The reason seems to be that an economy built on thrift and efficiency as a lever, rather than consumption, might see a performance improvement in the current circumstance.

But some think that ideology is anathema to capitalism, philosophically capitalism requires continuous growth. I'm not sure both can't exist if people are willing to change, the problem is a people problem built around different priorities for cost, value, efficiency and utility!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 16, 2020, 11:51:44 am
I tend to blame ScoMo more than Andrews, he pushed for a reopening due to the economic effects and Andrews was forced to comply after being the Jacinda Ardern of Australia and enforcing the tightest lockdown of all states.
Speaking of Ardern she nailed it with stage 4 from late March and NZ have had 17 days with no cases, its the only proven way with no vaccine and both Victoria and NSW need to adopt same for a couple of months at least.
We cant be opening, locking down, opening, locking down and repeating the cycle, we need to go hard now and the economy is going to have to get worse and yes we will pay for it later but thats the scenario IMO.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 16, 2020, 12:26:35 pm
Maybe it's time to go much harder with quarantine rules, much harder.

NEVER reward bad behaviour Baggers.  Fines should be tripled and damn well enforced and NO exceptions.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 16, 2020, 12:30:11 pm
I tend to blame ScoMo more than Andrews, he pushed for a reopening due to the economic effects and Andrews was forced to comply after being the Jacinda Ardern of Australia and enforcing the tightest lockdown of all states.
Speaking of Ardern she nailed it with stage 4 from late March and NZ have had 17 days with no cases, its the only proven way with no vaccine and both Victoria and NSW need to adopt same for a couple of months at least.
We cant be opening, locking down, opening, locking down and repeating the cycle, we need to go hard now and the economy is going to have to get worse and yes we will pay for it later but thats the scenario IMO.

I strongly suspect you're right, EB1. I wonder if the far right of the LNP put a lot of pressure on ScoMo to back up, to soften his stance - the kind of stance that Andrews took first up. Might also explain why Andrews hasn't gone hard the 2nd time 'round... Federal pressure. Be interesting to see what happens if Sydney continues to record more growth in C-19 cases. If we were fair dinkum we'd go the Kiwi model and shut the place down and close the nation to incoming flights for at least a month.

Moderation/trusting the public with different stages of lockdown just doesn't seem to work so well.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 16, 2020, 12:33:24 pm
I tend to blame ScoMo more than Andrews, he pushed for a reopening due to the economic effects and Andrews was forced to comply after being the Jacinda Ardern of Australia and enforcing the tightest lockdown of all states.
Speaking of Ardern she nailed it with stage 4 from late March and NZ have had 17 days with no cases, its the only proven way with no vaccine and both Victoria and NSW need to adopt same for a couple of months at least.
We cant be opening, locking down, opening, locking down and repeating the cycle, we need to go hard now and the economy is going to have to get worse and yes we will pay for it later but thats the scenario IMO.

Can't agree EB. Dan had absolute discretion, his call.

He certainly is happy enough to ignore Scottie from Marketing on many other occasions?

Back to the hotel quarantine fiasco - and Dan's culpability.

There are some things a government (the authorities) can control, some things they can't.

For example, despite the road rules, the government can't stop a couple of young kids getting plastered then driving at crazy speeds, crashing and killing themselves and/or others.

But let's say there's a dam in regional Victoria which is showing signs that it might give way...and needs urgent repair/rectification.

The authorities are notified. They send a few crew out to have a look but essentially just dither around and do nothing.

The dam breaks suddenly a few weeks later after a heavy winter fall and hundreds are killed in a town downstream as a result of the 'flood' created by the destroyed dam wall.

Who has culpability?

The company that built the dam? Possibly.

The government? Definitely. Unquestionably.

And the bigger the f... up, the bigger the head or heads that should roll.

this f... up is as big as they get.

Enter Dopey Dan.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 16, 2020, 12:35:19 pm
Might economies that decouple from GDP as a measure of economic health actually have a chance of profiting from this situation? The reason seems to be that an economy built on thrift and efficiency as a lever, rather than consumption, might see a performance improvement in the current circumstance.

But some think that ideology is anathema to capitalism, philosophically capitalism requires continuous growth. I'm not sure both can't exist if people are willing to change, the problem is a people problem built around different priorities for cost, value, efficiency and utility!

Wow, you raise a terrific existential question or two there, Spotted One. Really got me thinking... could this be the global change in how we live? Have we finally reached the point where this ball in the sky and its peoples can no longer support exponential growth? Time to re-evaluate and change our monetary system? Time to eliminate extreme personal wealth? Wow... this requires its own thread mate... ripper topic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 16, 2020, 12:38:29 pm
Can't agree EB. Dan had absolute discretion, his call.
How do you know this with such absolute certainty?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2020, 12:40:12 pm
NEVER reward bad behaviour Baggers.  Fines should be tripled and damn well enforced and NO exceptions.
You have to have a police force willing to do it.

Modern policing is all about community policing. This isn't a shot first state like the USA and that will never be the case no matter how many BLM protests get held locally to garnish international support!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 16, 2020, 12:46:32 pm
Because it's a State matter, just like the bushfires.

And just like the US.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2020, 12:51:33 pm
Because it's a State matter, just like the bushfires.

And just like the US.
The US Centre for Disease Control (CDC) is a Federal body!

In Australia outbreaks like SARS-CoV-2 has been covered by the National Health Security Act since 2007.

The Australian response is set out in Emergency Response Plan for Communicable Disease Incidents of National Significance which states, which states that,

"The Minister for Health is the lead Minister for a domestic public health incident that requires a whole-of-government response."

https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/ohp-cdplan.htm
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 16, 2020, 12:58:29 pm
I tend to blame ScoMo more than Andrews, he pushed for a reopening due to the economic effects and Andrews was forced to comply after being the Jacinda Ardern of Australia and enforcing the tightest lockdown of all states.
Speaking of Ardern she nailed it with stage 4 from late March and NZ have had 17 days with no cases, its the only proven way with no vaccine and both Victoria and NSW need to adopt same for a couple of months at least.
We cant be opening, locking down, opening, locking down and repeating the cycle, we need to go hard now and the economy is going to have to get worse and yes we will pay for it later but thats the scenario IMO.





I dont think erecting a bubble is practical either though.

Think of it this way.  NZ are now back at the start again.  The second they open up internationally, they will go through it all over again.

We dont have the virus under control, but we might be limiting its ability to impact, and resuming our ability to get back to normal through the exposure.  Our hospitals are still not under significant pressure, and we are all healthy enough.

Perhaps the yo yo lock downs is the best way forward.

You cannot lock it out forever but we wont find out until a little way down the track.

(on a side note, no vaccine will be adequately produced and trialled for years).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2020, 01:01:13 pm
Perhaps the yo yo lock downs is the best way forward.

You cannot lock it out forever but we wont find out until a little way down the track.

(on a side note, no vaccine will be adequately produced and trialled for years).
 Agreed, it's a bit like averaging on the stock market, you won't make huge windfalls or losses, just steady progress with reduced risk.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on July 16, 2020, 01:02:17 pm
I reckon there are 110 families who would not agree with "we are all healthy enough"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 16, 2020, 01:06:39 pm
The US Centre for Disease Control (CDC) is a Federal body!

In Australia outbreaks like SARS-CoV-2 has been covered by the National Health Security Act since 2007.

The Australian response is set out in Emergency Response Plan for Communicable Disease Incidents of National Significance which states, which states that,

"The Minister for Health is the lead Minister for a domestic public health incident that requires a whole-of-government response."

https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/ohp-cdplan.htm

And?

The States have primary responsibility for Health and Education - and bushfires ie land management. Etc etc.

Of course the Commonwealth has an overriding national pandemic function. And no doubt if Dan screws up again, the Feds would likely step in. As they should.

You're stating the obvious....again.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2020, 01:09:44 pm
I reckon there are 110 families who would not agree with "we are all healthy enough"
 
In one aspect I agree, but I also agree with Thry's sentiment, so far we are fairing better than average not wishing to jinx us.

I'd assert though it's because of the actions of our governments, regardless of whether you think they could do better or not, make better decisions or not, they clearly haven't been indifferent or asleep at the wheel like The Donald. Nobody in Australia has really taken the position that the little people are collateral damage, in the same way that the US system has enshrined loss of life as a collateral cost of profit and liberty!

Of course we cannot ignore China, but that solution comes at the very high cost of freedom.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2020, 01:10:37 pm
And?

The States have primary responsibility for Health and Education - and bushfires ie land management. Etc etc.

Of course the Commonwealth has an overriding national pandemic function. And no doubt if Dan screws up again, the Feds would likely step in. As they should.

You're stating the obvious....again.
Because it's a State matter, just like the bushfires.
You just make so many false claims to support false assumptions there are too many to debate, there is nothing correct about what you posted but you're mired in defending your false conclusions. If you polish the scratches out of that broken record it will move to the next track! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 16, 2020, 01:12:19 pm


I reckon there are 110 families who would not agree with "we are all healthy enough"

Fair point.

Tough gig this isnt it?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 16, 2020, 01:16:56 pm
Only anecdotes but here on the Island only about 2 weeks ago we had some holidaymakers flouting quarantine guidelines by having secret backyard parties and so on. Every day Aussies. We had a bunch a few doors down and we just couldn't believe it and before you ask... all Aussies, no English is their 2nd or 3rd language stuff going on. The one thing I did notice, it was younger people having the clandestine parties... almost showing off. And only today I spoke with a friend from Prahran who said she couldn't believe the number of people, again younger ones, going about their business in the shopping precincts as if nothing is wrong... not a mask in sight! So what do you do about these people who know better but just don't seem to give a cr@p? You can't hang a Premier or a Prime Minister for not being able to control these clowns, they can only get advice from those who know (medical and police) and implement it, the rest is up to civic compliance.
I guess it depends where you live, I'm inner north and my Woollies and Bunnings are as dead as I have ever seem them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 16, 2020, 01:23:25 pm
I tend to blame ScoMo more than Andrews, he pushed for a reopening due to the economic effects and Andrews was forced to comply after being the Jacinda Ardern of Australia and enforcing the tightest lockdown of all states.
Speaking of Ardern she nailed it with stage 4 from late March and NZ have had 17 days with no cases, its the only proven way with no vaccine and both Victoria and NSW need to adopt same for a couple of months at least.
We cant be opening, locking down, opening, locking down and repeating the cycle, we need to go hard now and the economy is going to have to get worse and yes we will pay for it later but thats the scenario IMO.




With a population of only 4.9M (less than QLD), it wasn't exactly that hard a call to make.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 16, 2020, 01:30:01 pm
NEVER reward bad behaviour Baggers.  Fines should be tripled and damn well enforced and NO exceptions.


People are assholes CC. I saw last night on TV Vic Pol officers trying to issue fines and the reply from the Miss Parasite was "under what law are you issuing the fine?" to which the the copper replied something like "under the Health Officers direction.." to which the silly mole replied something like "thats a directive not law". See under G2C law, at that point my policing career and freedom would have ended right there with the use of a baseball bat across the forehead. I always say, God Bless the Police Officers of this country for the patience and restraint they show when having to deal with imbeciles like that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 16, 2020, 02:16:10 pm
We definitely need anti-dickhead legislation 🤓
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 16, 2020, 02:19:46 pm
People are assholes CC. I saw last night on TV Vic Pol officers trying to issue fines and the reply from the Miss Parasite was "under what law are you issuing the fine?" to which the the copper replied something like "under the Health Officers direction.." to which the silly mole replied something like "thats a directive not law". See under G2C law, at that point my policing career and freedom would have ended right there with the use of a baseball bat across the forehead. I always say, God Bless the Police Officers of this country for the patience and restraint they show when having to deal with imbeciles like that.

Exactly. It's one of the points I've been attempting to make... expecting the general public to understand the quarantine benefits and rules is for too many nigh on impossible. They will just not co-operate for a variety of reasons. And in a city of 4+ million people that is dynamite.

Oh, and I get your frustration but getting angry at the difficult ones and giving them one to go on with only plays right into their hands...

Then there are the media mixed messages/opinions... the bloke across the road from us turned up late last week trying to stay in his holiday home once the lockdown was in force... lasted one day before the constabulary sent him packing. I had a brief chat with him (good bloke, except for this episode... Aussie, 60s) and he started quoting Bolt and what he wrote as his excuse for coming to his holiday home... that was my cue to politely remember that Mrs Baggers needed some help!

With a population of only 4.9M (less than QLD), it wasn't exactly that hard a call to make.

But she did make the call and it wasn't popular. She had plenty of opposition but had the guts to enforce it...

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 16, 2020, 02:32:07 pm
Exactly. It's one of the points I've been attempting to make... expecting the general public to understand the quarantine benefits and rules is for too many nigh on impossible. They will just not co-operate for a variety of reasons. And in a city of 4+ million people that is dynamite.

Oh, and I get your frustration but getting angry at the difficult ones and giving them one to go on with only plays right into their hands...

Then there are the media mixed messages/opinions... the bloke across the road from us turned up late last week trying to stay in his holiday home once the lockdown was in force... lasted one day before the constabulary sent him packing. I had a brief chat with him (good bloke, except for this episode... Aussie, 60s) and he started quoting Bolt and what he wrote as his excuse for coming to his holiday home... that was my cue to politely remember that Mrs Baggers needed some help!

But she did make the call and it wasn't popular. She had plenty of opposition but had the guts to enforce it...


Youre a good man Baggers, would have been on like Donkey Kong if that was me.
If our population was similar to NZ's, I reckon we would have made the same call here in Oz, unpopular or not. The difficulty in handling this horrible problem is not lost me one bit, I just reckon a couple of key decisions here and there have gone the wrong way and could have made a difference now. Whether or not it costs Comrade Dan votes and a job remains to be seen.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 16, 2020, 02:33:01 pm
What could be worse than publicly minded people who trying to do the right thing seeing dickheads get away with flouting the guidelines? Allow that and you have zero credibility.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2020, 02:51:50 pm
Cynically, some might think that the Kiwis who were likely to cause NZ lots of COVID trouble were mostly here, which granted is only a small wannabe portion of the total Expat Kiwis living here.

Some might be forgiven for thinking that at the moment the NZ bureaucrats are primarily legal specialists, given how much time they spend in the courts fighting hard to prevent ScoMo from sending the more nefarious types back!

Not that I'm cynical about some of those humanitarian calls our Cross Ditch Cousins (CDC) are making!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 16, 2020, 04:12:00 pm
With a population of only 4.9M (less than QLD), it wasn't exactly that hard a call to make.
I'd argue Australia follows the USA and NZ do their own thing...ScoMo overpaid jobkeeper etc and wanted the country back to work because the debt was piling up and didnt want to lose the triple A credit rating.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 17, 2020, 08:15:17 am
You'll start to notice that News Ltd rags are gradually demoting / diminishing the number of COVID-19 reports from the front pages, they may even post small editorials claiming they are doing so because of concern regarding the public mental health.

But the truth is that reporting the COVID-19 numbers doesn't sit well with the News Ltd corporate policy, and some of those on the inside at News Ltd are not happy about it, as such they have developed a few leaks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 17, 2020, 08:31:15 am
Looks like HCQ has finally bit the dust as a useful COVID-19 treatment.

The professional researchers are tearing the retrospective meta-data drug studies a new one as data from all the big person science starts to come in!

There is a strong possibility some or all uses of other anti-viral drugs will go the same way, nearly all of them have been proposed out of retrospective meta-data analysis, which means none of the publish reports are based on randomised and controlled trials, and all of those studies are completely retrospectively observational. The problem is that in the retrospective studies the reason for giving HCQ(or any other drug), combined with the method of selecting the patients, basically introduces a biased which delivers the drug a booster result.

Many such 'cures" are promoted for use due to political issues rather than drug efficacy.

This leaves, shock horror, the two most useful tools in the COVID-19 fight as Remdesivir and PCR, the two things the health professionals have turned to from day one!

- No Remdesivir doesn't implant chips in your veins or your brain.

- Yes, despite not being 100% accurate, PCR is still the most accurate diagnostic method we have but it's slow (2-3 days) and costly per test.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 17, 2020, 08:43:34 am
You'll start to notice that News Ltd rags are gradually demoting / diminishing the number of COVID-19 reports from the front pages, they may even post small editorials claiming they are doing so because of concern regarding the public mental health.

But the truth is that reporting the COVID-19 numbers doesn't sit well with the News Ltd corporate policy, and some of those on the inside at News Ltd are not happy about it, as such they have developed a few leaks.

Would have loved to have been a fly on the wall to see Bolt and Co.'s reaction to ScoMo saying that at present, 'We are all Victorians... and that political and state boundaries are being put aside to fight a common enemy...' Ye gods, ScoMo and Dan buddying up, the far right will be vanishing up their own dots.

And how will News Corp deal with not being able to sensationalise and divide and demonise the moderates and the left!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on July 17, 2020, 09:07:36 am
Those blaming Dan for the failures of the idiots in quarantine, are just looking for an excuse to give him a kick.  Disappointed to see The Age becoming more like the HS every day too, there's been an obvious change to the language used and the sensationalism imo.

I don't understand how the quarantined guests and security guards taking them to 7/11 and bonking them have gotten out of this without punishment.  Isn't it sad that we're looking at our premier as at fault rather than the ADULTS clearly told what they needed to do and the seriousness of it (ie being quarantined) and the security guards paid to ensure they were doing the right thing.  What do people want, police sent to enforce the security enforcing the idiot returned travellers?  Who enforces the police then?  Bring in the army, to enforce the police, to enforce security to ensure adults do the right thing.  But who enforces the army do the right thing... and on and on.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on July 17, 2020, 09:11:52 am
On Nz, had a friend contact me the other day.  Life is not back to normal and rainbows and sunshine over there.  He said the economy is tanking, the media is just being as relentless as ours about the misery of it all.

This is where our media and scumo etc have stuffed up, it's great if your little patch is corona-free but life won't get back to normal until EVERY area is under control - the Melbourne bashing going on is shooting yourself in the foot, we need everyone to stick together to help everyone come out of this as well as possible.  You think reporting on how the Crossroads cluster originated from a Melbourne man is helpful?  Where did he get it from, someone that was a contact of someone on the Ruby Princess?  It's unhelpful and detrimental to what we should all be striving for, helping one another.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 17, 2020, 09:12:33 am
Those blaming Dan for the failures of the idiots in quarantine, are just looking for an excuse to give him a kick.  Disappointed to see The Age becoming more like the HS every day too, there's been an obvious change to the language used and the sensationalism imo.

I don't understand how the quarantined guests and security guards taking them to 7/11 and bonking them have gotten out of this without punishment.  Isn't it sad that we're looking at our premier as at fault rather than the ADULTS clearly told what they needed to do and the seriousness of it (ie being quarantined) and the security guards paid to ensure they were doing the right thing.  What do people want, police sent to enforce the security enforcing the idiot returned travellers?  Who enforces the police then?  Bring in the army, to enforce the police, to enforce security to ensure adults do the right thing.  But who enforces the army do the right thing... and on and on.


The other states got it right, just saying.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on July 17, 2020, 09:20:25 am
The other states got it right, just saying.
So far. This is just the beginning. And I wouldn't describe the Ruby Princess fiasco as getting it right
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 17, 2020, 09:30:12 am
The other states got it right, just saying.

Too early to tell with NSW, GTC, and the other states, like NZ, have low populations. Time will tell... this C-19 thing has a long way to go... probably not even 1/4 time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 17, 2020, 09:39:06 am
On Nz, had a friend contact me the other day.  Life is not back to normal and rainbows and sunshine over there.  He said the economy is tanking, the media is just being as relentless as ours about the misery of it all.

This is where our media and scumo etc have stuffed up, it's great if your little patch is corona-free but life won't get back to normal until EVERY area is under control - the Melbourne bashing going on is shooting yourself in the foot, we need everyone to stick together to help everyone come out of this as well as possible.  You think reporting on how the Crossroads cluster originated from a Melbourne man is helpful?  Where did he get it from, someone that was a contact of someone on the Ruby Princess?  It's unhelpful and detrimental to what we should all be striving for, helping one another.

Classy post, MO. Mature perspective. We, too, have NZ connections (Mrs Baggers mother and sister and her family all live in NZ - South Island) and they don't report rainbows and blue skies either. Economy is sluggish to say the least but they all reckon that Jacinda is really good... oh, except for Mrs Baggers' mother, but she's a Pom and not happy unless she's whining about how women should be in the family home and not working!!!! Yep, she and I have had some colourful discussions!!!).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 17, 2020, 10:14:03 am
If Scomo is turning an about face, prepare to see escalation of cases outside of Victoria, and a few things to keep in mind.

1.  Any state saying "they did better than Victoria" needs to be sure they actually did.  The only thing that the other states have on Victoria is dumb luck.  For any New South Welshman who wants to throw stones, the words Ruby Princess are all we need to remind them of.

2.  The security guards and quarantine guests are one symptom of a wider issue.  The Australian public do not in general take this threat seriously.  These return traveller's were put up in 5 star hotels courtesy of the tax payer.  Why are the Hotels not wearing any heat surrounding THEIR obligation in this, and isn't the security hired by them at our cost?  Shouldn't we be placing our ire at big business who more than likely outsourced their costs to security companies, did so with the usual efficiency of spending as little as possible to tick the check box and then have not adhered to any protocols laid out to them with respect to quarantine, cleaning, masks, etc?  Crown Resorts, Rydges, etc.  Yeah the government failed them...  Lets remember these people are not prisoners, they are complicit in the crime.  They were given a lifeline where tourism is ceased, and travel is suspended and they have squandered their opportunity.  From memory 90% of international travel to Aus, was being filtered through Victoria to minimise the risk, and this probably has a bit more to do with the blowback Dan is facing now.  Keep in mind that Sydney had its Ruby Princess debacle when wondering why this might be the case.

3.  There was a massive blow up regarding the conditions the guests were being kept in with respect to them being inhumane, overly strict, and you get the idea.  The media has had a bet each way, and is simply cashing in at the moment.

4.  The talk of bringing in the defense force to police the hotels is a recent discussion.  If the ills stretch back that far, then they were had from the perspective of DOD getting a piece of Corona finances.  Hence the recent focus on Australia's security from China.  Trying to throw Dan into that bed is likely another angle for them to work to get a piece of the financial pie they are missing out on.

I think the Australian people are being played for fools, and as per usual the loudest voices are all they need on board to conduct a hatchet job on one bloke at the top like it will make a difference.

Keep in mind something, all this money that they are spending now, is money taken out of budgets in future.  That means future pain that these departments are all going to wear, and it wouldn't surprise me one bit to see a bunch of people spending money they don't need on things they are going to need moving forward to make up for any future shortfalls.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 17, 2020, 10:24:27 am
Your inside perspective is always enlightening Thry, I didn't realise International air travellers were be preferentially directed to Victoria, so I crossed checked that and it seems it's correct.

But perhaps it's not really as a deliberate act as people might think. Like Sydney has it's deep water ports for cruise liners, a lot of flights into Australia arriving in Melbourne has to do with which airlines maintained international flights, where they have or can get landing slots in Tullamarine or Avalon, where airlines choose to have their capacity limited hubs, and the hours airports can or would remain open as not all are 24x7.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 17, 2020, 11:57:12 am
If Scomo is turning an about face, prepare to see escalation of cases outside of Victoria, and a few things to keep in mind.

1.  Any state saying "they did better than Victoria" needs to be sure they actually did.  The only thing that the other states have on Victoria is dumb luck.  For any New South Welshman who wants to throw stones, the words Ruby Princess are all we need to remind them of.

2.  The security guards and quarantine guests are one symptom of a wider issue.  The Australian public do not in general take this threat seriously.  These return traveller's were put up in 5 star hotels courtesy of the tax payer.  Why are the Hotels not wearing any heat surrounding THEIR obligation in this, and isn't the security hired by them at our cost?  Shouldn't we be placing our ire at big business who more than likely outsourced their costs to security companies, did so with the usual efficiency of spending as little as possible to tick the check box and then have not adhered to any protocols laid out to them with respect to quarantine, cleaning, masks, etc?  Crown Resorts, Rydges, etc.  Yeah the government failed them...  Lets remember these people are not prisoners, they are complicit in the crime.  They were given a lifeline where tourism is ceased, and travel is suspended and they have squandered their opportunity.  From memory 90% of international travel to Aus, was being filtered through Victoria to minimise the risk, and this probably has a bit more to do with the blowback Dan is facing now.  Keep in mind that Sydney had its Ruby Princess debacle when wondering why this might be the case.

3.  There was a massive blow up regarding the conditions the guests were being kept in with respect to them being inhumane, overly strict, and you get the idea.  The media has had a bet each way, and is simply cashing in at the moment.

4.  The talk of bringing in the defense force to police the hotels is a recent discussion.  If the ills stretch back that far, then they were had from the perspective of DOD getting a piece of Corona finances.  Hence the recent focus on Australia's security from China.  Trying to throw Dan into that bed is likely another angle for them to work to get a piece of the financial pie they are missing out on.

I think the Australian people are being played for fools, and as per usual the loudest voices are all they need on board to conduct a hatchet job on one bloke at the top like it will make a difference.

Keep in mind something, all this money that they are spending now, is money taken out of budgets in future.  That means future pain that these departments are all going to wear, and it wouldn't surprise me one bit to see a bunch of people spending money they don't need on things they are going to need moving forward to make up for any future shortfalls.

Brilliant post, 3 Leos. Perspective. Reality. Truth. Para 2 in your quality contribution to this discussion is one that some folks should read over and over.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 17, 2020, 12:06:54 pm
Brilliant post, 3 Leos. Perspective. Reality. Truth. Para 2 in your quality contribution to this discussion is one that some folks should read over and over.
Can you imagine the outcry if Vic turns around and tells the other states to accept and look after it's own international travellers directly?

At the moment they quarantine in Victoria, put that in context about the Virgin domestic flight outrage a week or two ago. Many of the people NSW are complaining about are people who were returned international travellers from NSW or Qld that were shipped from overseas into Victoria for quarantine, then NSW and Qld point the finger at Victoria!

FMD, until Thry pointed it out and I cross checked, I didn't even know this was going on. We are taking a bullet here, and being persecuted by the rest of Australia for doing so!

I'm left with even more admiration for our medical staff, they are helping people without regard to who or where they come from, in other words being human and showing some humanity. That puts them well above my pay grade on the humanity scale, I'm not worthy to lick their boots!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 17, 2020, 12:13:54 pm
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-17/coronavirus-melbourne-doctor-suppression-or-elimination/12462518

This article is disturbing to me. OK an opinion piece, but from the front lines of the fight against this virus and suggesting that we may have the strategy all wrong?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 17, 2020, 12:17:07 pm
Attention will soon turn to debt repayment and I can't see a way clear unless the GST is increased (for a period of time) with the federals holding onto the excess revenue, managing it and not give it to the states.  Something's gotta break

That's a simplistic approach, others may have other ideas.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 17, 2020, 12:21:16 pm
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-17/coronavirus-melbourne-doctor-suppression-or-elimination/12462518

This article is disturbing to me. OK an opinion piece, but from the front lines of the fight against this virus and suggesting that we may have the strategy all wrong?
Is it a realistic option?

Even for NZ which went this way it's not over, the elimination strategy has caused a delay not a cure, there are already new cases in NZ and having just a few weeks "clean" has come at a huge domestic cost for them. For more than we are prepared to pay so far!

Some experts think there is no elimination strategy, much of what we are seeing is just the early stages of a change that lasts forever and there is no going back to the way things were. Thinking we can go back, using the old measures for what we want to achieve, perhaps just delays progress on developing the new normal.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 17, 2020, 12:30:56 pm
Your inside perspective is always enlightening Thry, I didn't realise International air travellers were be preferentially directed to Victoria, so I crossed checked that and it seems it's correct.

But perhaps it's not really as a deliberate act as people might think. Like Sydney has it's deep water ports for cruise liners, a lot of flights into Australia arriving in Melbourne has to do with which airlines maintained international flights, where they have or can get landing slots in Tullamarine or Avalon, where airlines choose to have their capacity limited hubs, and the hours airports can or would remain open as not all are 24x7.

MEL and BNE are 24/7 and slots given the scarcity of ops would not present a problem, nor a/c parking issue.  SYD is the thorn and has been for 50 years or more.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 17, 2020, 01:07:23 pm
Brilliant post, 3 Leos. Perspective. Reality. Truth. Para 2 in your quality contribution to this discussion is one that some folks should read over and over.
All the more reason why it needed to be a secure and robust process handles by qualified people. The failure of the Ruby Princess disembarkation should have been a learning. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 17, 2020, 02:33:07 pm
All the more reason why it needed to be a secure and robust process handles by qualified people. The failure of the Ruby Princess disembarkation should have been a learning.
In fairness to all the people involved, it's easy to get that impression when misleading commentary wrongly refers to COVID-19 as Flu Like!

They are all learning on the run, knowledge isn't instantaneous, and there isn't really something of this magnitude they can relate it to historically. The epidemiology is quite different to even the original SARS or MERS outbreaks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 17, 2020, 03:26:44 pm
You just make so many false claims to support false assumptions there are too many to debate, there is nothing correct about what you posted but you're mired in defending your false conclusions. If you polish the scratches out of that broken record it will move to the next track! ;)

Dude, I'm a solicitor.

Did plenty of con law in my early days. I know a bit about the divisions of powers.

Now, it's obvious - way beyond obvious -  you're the (personality?) type who thinks he know more than anyone else about everything, but seriously, once and a while, learn to STFU.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 17, 2020, 04:09:38 pm
Dude, I'm a solicitor.

Did plenty of con law in my early days. I know a bit about the divisions of powers.

Now, it's obvious - way beyond obvious -  you're the (personality?) type who thinks he know more than anyone else about everything, but seriously, once and a while, learn to STFU.
You've got that exactly wrong Flyboy77.

Without doubt I know that I don't know all of it.

I'm certain from what you've posted about COVID-19 you don't as well.

If I knew it all I'd offer solutions, not just shine a critical torch on the grossly erroneous stuff being re-posted, conspiracy theories that use 3rd rate internet fluff as evidence, on repeat at thousands of different but equally invalid websites. It's just propaganda for political or social purposes. Reports with just a sprinkling of truth but mostly drowning in rubbish, things a literary author like Le Carre would describe as "Just enough glitter amongst the chicken feed!"

You've got all that legal training, you need to use the critical thinking skills you were taught and apply it to some of that ludicrous stuff you re-post.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 17, 2020, 06:03:49 pm
Dude, I'm a solicitor.

Did plenty of con law in my early days. I know a bit about the divisions of powers.

Now, it's obvious - way beyond obvious -  you're the (personality?) type who thinks he know more than anyone else about everything, but seriously, once and a while, learn to STFU.

So you're a solicitor and apparently a psychoanalyst accusing the Spotted One of being a certain 'personality type'... who exactly is the person who reckons he knows everything about everything?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 17, 2020, 08:53:00 pm
As an inside comment, GREAT to see that moron fined $50,000 for invading the game last night.  So what's this PoS do?   Posts a Crowdfunder and raised $10.  Y'all gonna get a lesson boy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 19, 2020, 01:02:21 pm
Come on ScoMO... get the Federal Dept of Health with the program.

Dr Vyom Sharma... perfect diagnosis of the Australian Government's Dept of Health info on wearing masks. A lot has been done right but this c0ckup was just dumb.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 19, 2020, 02:31:43 pm
Nando, you're posting in the wrong thread.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 19, 2020, 02:50:32 pm
Nando, you're posting in the wrong thread.
Yep. Can you remove/repost please GTC
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 19, 2020, 03:52:12 pm
Sorry guys
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 19, 2020, 03:54:09 pm
Sorry guys

We've all done it. No worries.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 19, 2020, 05:05:11 pm
Sorry guys

All good
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 20, 2020, 08:09:16 pm
Some wack job(s) posting conspiracy theory pamphlets in south eastern suburbs mailboxes. These people are not only farking stupid, they are dangerous. Stuff the posting rules, I am posting the whole article so people here can see the nut jobs living amongst us.

Hundreds of Casey residents receive coronavirus conspiracy theory flyer

Hundreds of residents in Hampton Park and surrounds have received a disturbing coronavirus conspiracy theory pamphlet claiming the pandemic is a fraud, as dangerous online groups tell followers not to wear masks, reject tests and plan protests.

Suzan Delibasic, Cranbourne Leader

July 20, 2020 4:53pm

Disturbing conspiracy theory pamphlets claiming coronavirus is a “fraud” have been dropped into hundreds of letterboxes in Casey.

The flyer is rife with theories, alleging governments, the World Health Organisation and the media are lying to the public, among other suggestions.

It also claims the coronavirus death statistics were “inflated”, suggesting people dying from causes such as cancer and heart attacks were being falsely reported as coronavirus deaths.

Dozens of Casey residents took to several social media pages expressing outrage about the flyers, saying they were “disturbing”.

On angry resident wrote on the Hampton Park and Surrounding Suburbs Community Group Facebook page: “People distributing fake information should be charged by police”.

Another wrote: “Wonder if the people who have died from COVID-19 think it's a fraud”.

University of Melbourne epidemiology expert Professor Tony Blakely said conspiracy theories were completely unjustified.

“There’s millions of cases occurring globally and the hundreds of thousands if not soon millions of deaths occurring from this virus,” Prof Blakely said.

“This is a time for listening to experts and it’s also incredibly apparent on television with bodies outside hospitals and morgues overflowing that this is real,” he said.

It comes as dozens of conspiracy theory Facebook groups have emerged in recent months telling its tens of thousands of online followers the deadly virus was just a cover for the global elite to consolidate their control over the masses.

The groups tell its followers not to wear masks, reject coronavirus tests and plans protests.

A Department of Health and Human Services spokesman said coronavirus was an incredibly infectious disease that has killed hundreds of thousands of people all over the world, including 39 Victorians.

“Any suggestion otherwise is an insult to the remarkable Victorians working around the clock to control the spread of the virus and care for those infected,” the spokesman said.

“The spreading of misinformation is particularly dangerous at a time when we are trying to slow the spread of a spike in coronavirus cases and particularly focusing on engaging CALD communities, who may be less connected to mainstream media,” he said.

The spokesman said the department urged all Victorians to use trusted government sources for advice about coronavirus.

“The department is providing information in 53 languages alongside a dedicated hotline for any queries on virus symptoms and testing,” he said.

Casey chairperson Noelene Duff said there was a lot of misinformation about coronavirus.

“Residents are advised to only refer to trusted information sources, such as the Department of Health and Human Services or other Federal Government sources,” Ms Duff said.

“Those in the Casey community can also refer to the City of Casey’s website and social media channels for the latest on council services and related COVID-19 information,” she said.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 20, 2020, 08:45:32 pm
That explains the recent silence about UFOs when we know they're real GTC.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 21, 2020, 11:52:58 am
It's hard to explain the ongoing pattern of infection without concluding a major contribution if not all of it comes from people wilfully not complying to the quarantine rules.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 21, 2020, 12:32:07 pm
It's hard to explain the ongoing pattern of infection without concluding a major contribution if not all of it comes from people wilfully not complying to the quarantine rules.
I suspect you may be right. Just heard of a couple from Melbourne recently visiting a country town and infecting people there.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 21, 2020, 12:57:45 pm
There are rumoured cases at the moment of primary school / pre-school children testing positive at widely separated geographical locations, having been seemingly in home isolation for weeks and weeks. These are not people expose to the mobile general public, delivery drivers, tradespeople, etc., etc..

The virus might be infectious, but it isn't a tardis, somebody has to start asking the hard questions but does the political will exist?

I think there are way too many people who think I'm safe, I won't make a difference if I disobey the rules, but they are in fact the equivalent of the guard asleep at their post. A modern day Typhoid Mary.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on July 21, 2020, 07:57:16 pm
And I get panned for telling people to stay at home...not to go out into regional areas for weak reasons.

When will the dumb fcuks learn?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 21, 2020, 10:44:13 pm
And I get panned for telling people to stay at home...not to go out into regional areas for weak reasons.

When will the dumb fcuks learn?
They wont Prof, thats why you need to keep cracking in (to use football parlance)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on July 21, 2020, 11:31:12 pm
It will be an interesting scenario when a vaccine arrives and the anti vac's and the other crazies refuse to take it.  I can see all sorts of things people wont be able to do unless they've been vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on July 22, 2020, 07:21:33 am
There will be people on this site old enough to remember the last polio epidemic.   Vaccines restrict preventable diseases. The science is pretty basic.   Seriously,  if one of those dolphin hugging crystal gazing types won't get vaccinated,  maybe watching their child die in twisted screaming crippled agony from polio,  or burning up from measles,  or coughing themselves to death from TB might snap them back into reality.  The same types who bitch when their kid can't go to kindergarten because they refuse to get jabs.   Darwin was right to a point... Natural selection applies,  with a modifier for bloodyminded stupidity.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on July 22, 2020, 07:31:42 am
There's an article in the Age today about a 25 year old who shows why we can't stop the virus.

Words fail me.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 22, 2020, 08:00:45 am
Darwin was right to a point... Natural selection applies,  with a modifier for bloodyminded stupidity.
 The trouble is ProfE, the infants and kids never get a choice, they are the collateral victims of parental hubris!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 22, 2020, 08:04:58 am
There's an article in the Age today about a 25 year old who shows why we can't stop the virus.

Words fail me.  
Online article? Got a link?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 22, 2020, 08:08:58 am
Reminds me of Dr Strangelove :o

or

How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the COVID
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 22, 2020, 08:15:38 am
Sometimes, one must mete out some justice.  There are few more deserving creatures than anti vaxxers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 23, 2020, 11:56:50 am
By chance I had a long meeting today with a respiratory specialist, our meeting was unrelated but of course we got talking COVID.

He thinks there is a huge problem developing, it's going to smash the health systems of the USA and other nations including our own if COVID isn't taken more serious by the youth.

As each week passes more and more long term effects and being found in those who have had infections, not just those who were ill, but also those who were asymptomatic. They weren't looking for this earlier so they didn't see it, but once they started doing proper trials which include a mix of ill, asymptomatic, recovered and healthy people the result is becoming alarming. Chronic long term health conditions, like lethargy, headaches, insomnia, fatigue, joint and bone pain, cardiovascular and lung function effects.

Disturbingly, these effects are not restricted or stronger in a specific age group, it is showing up equally in infants through to 80 year olds. The worst case, and I realise that it is probably an over-estimate, could mean 35% of those infected will live with some ongoing chronic effect of getting SARS-CoV-2.

If it's correct, this time next year, there will be otherwise fit young individuals struggling to play sport, not knowing why, never having made the connection because they were never really sick! Our elite athletes better be taking this seriously too.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 24, 2020, 04:17:46 pm
I'm already detecting a tiring of the public's tolerance to the mask situation.

Yesterday at the chemist there was a bloke feigning to drink a coffee in the prescription queue, behind him in the background was an illuminated makeup advertising billboard, you could see the lit sign through his semi-translucent plastic coffee cup, a coffee cup of emptiness!

It not even 48hrs into it and this bloke was cheating via a loophole.

But imagine how people feel who have to wear protection for work day in and day out for months now, doing the right thing, only to have a Norbit like that flout the rules? He'll be a high probability of begging them for help if he gets a dose.

I felt like jobbing him, but it would only make the staff's day worse, they were already up to their necks in pensioners trying to stockpile medicine by chemist shopping!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 24, 2020, 04:50:39 pm
Read an article today stating that according to a recent Oxford University study, herd immunity may be achieved with an immunity rate of 20%. Apparently there could be a natural condition in many humans that prevents the retransmission of the virus. In short, the combination of these two factors would amount to full herd immunity and kill off the virus. Hope this is right.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 24, 2020, 04:51:54 pm
Read an article today stating that according to a recent Oxford University study, herd immunity may be achieved with an immunity rate of 20%. Apparently there could be a natural condition in many humans that prevents the retransmission of the virus. In short, the combination of these two factors would amount to full herd immunity and kill off the virus. Hope this is right.
Hopefully, this is where real science really helps!

It's disturbing that the anti-vaxers benefit by the very same mechanism, I suppose they'll correlate that as evidence vaccines are a fraud!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on July 24, 2020, 04:54:48 pm
Don't get the resistance to a mask.  Yes, you get foggy glasses, but there are some simple workarounds and you can't see anyone's expression, but it is harder to try to get around it than just do it.

Also, stay at home if you don't have to be out - then you don't need to wear one!

It's not hard to understand.  It is getting tiring doing this, but the more people don't, the longer restrictions will be in place.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 24, 2020, 05:16:22 pm
Some wack job(s) posting conspiracy theory pamphlets in south eastern suburbs mailboxes. These people are not only farking stupid, they are dangerous. Stuff the posting rules, I am posting the whole article so people here can see the nut jobs living amongst us.

...

It also claims the coronavirus death statistics were “inflated”, suggesting people dying from causes such as cancer and heart attacks were being falsely reported as coronavirus deaths.

re this part...
I saw something on facebook, yep, i know, that was focussed on this....there might be a nugget of truth to it, albeit in the US, not here.

Short version if there are 100+ people telling stories about personal experience in the US where people have died and the doctors/hospital have put down cause of death as Coronavirus, despite those same people never being tested.

Everyone from
- 109yo Grannys that haven't left the house in months - Covid.
- people who have been dying from cancer - covid
- heart attacks - covid
- People falling off a horse leading to concussion, coma and death 3 days later - covid.

This has supposedly been verified by nurses and doctors over there.

Anyone who does not have a clear, identifying cause of death (ie shot, stabbed, car crash etc) is being listed as Covid.

The reason? Hospitals get money from the government for every patient they treat who has covid.


That's what is doing the rounds, not sure if its true, don't really care TBH, but IMO it certainly not beyond the yanks to do that.
At the end of the day, a dead person is a dead person. If one dead person gets your hospital money because you dodge up their death certificate....you can potentially become a better hospital because of it.
Does the end justify the means???

Dunno
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 24, 2020, 05:55:53 pm
re this part...
I saw something on facebook, yep, i know, that was focussed on this....there might be a nugget of truth to it, albeit in the US, not here.
I stopped reading after that. You're "dead" to me. ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 25, 2020, 12:30:28 pm
Another 300-400 day for Melbourne.

On average, I wonder how many of these daily huge nos. would end up in hospital and how many would develop symptoms sufficient to make them just go home and recover like a bad flu and how many would eventually have mild symptoms but be able to work/remain active (at home of course) and how many would remain asymptomatic? Anyone aware of any breakdown like this?

I think some folks panic when they hear that we have 350 new cases today as they believe that equates to hospitalisations... and after a week that's a few thousand!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 25, 2020, 01:01:55 pm
Another 300-400 day for Melbourne.

On average, I wonder how many of these daily huge nos. would end up in hospital and how many would develop symptoms sufficient to make them just go home and recover like a bad flu and how many would eventually have mild symptoms but be able to work/remain active (at home of course) and how many would remain asymptomatic? Anyone aware of any breakdown like this?

I think some folks panic when they hear that we have 350 new cases today as they believe that equates to hospitalisations... and after a week that's a few thousand!
I think the real problem is how many of these 350 mildly affected go home ............. and ignore quarantine rules.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 26, 2020, 11:39:05 pm
The biggest issue is that everyone is affected differently.  There's a 45 year old who spent 72 days in hospital with it when his wife had the sniffles.

Why? No one knows.  Catch it and find out your fate? No thanks.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 27, 2020, 12:48:10 pm
532 cases today. You can be as critical as you want of governments but this is just people not doing the right thing plain and simple. That is, people not social distancing, not wearing masks, going out for coffees, going to work or out whilst sick, not self isolating whilst test results are pending, nursing homes not looking after the elderly by utilising isolation and infection control measures. If I owned an Aged Care Facility, I would have immediately locked it down and seeked emergency assistance and health advice on how best to deal with the crisis. There are going to be lawsuits everywhere when this is over/under control.
And there are these imbeciles meeting in Cranbourne yesterday, conspiracy theorists, wouldnt feed these parasites:
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 27, 2020, 01:51:56 pm
According to the CHO the two main problem areas appear to be workplaces and aged care facilities.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 27, 2020, 02:33:57 pm
According to the CHO the two main problem areas appear to be workplaces and aged care facilities.
I'll stand corrected but last week, I think I read that 80% of the transmissions are occuring in work places.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on July 27, 2020, 03:27:54 pm
Why are meatworks so prone to clusters?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 27, 2020, 03:33:40 pm
Why are meatworks so prone to clusters?

Apparently workers are lowly paid and reluctant to miss shifts even when showing symptoms.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 27, 2020, 03:36:48 pm
Why are meatworks so prone to clusters?
Low temperature environment?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 27, 2020, 06:30:15 pm
Sanity prevails in NSW at least, now is not the time given the H&S risks. Now we will see what the authorities do when it goes ahead illegally.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2020/jul/27/coronavirus-australia-live-news-victoria-outbreak-nsw-qld-andrews-berejiklian-morrison-melbourne-sydney-thai-rock-aged-care-live?page=with:block-5f1e70ec8f080665365e61fe#block-5f1e70ec8f080665365e61fe

The NSW court of appeal has dismissed an appeal from the organisers of a Black Lives Matter protest planned for Sydney.
It means that the rally tomorrow will be an “unauthorised event”.
Organisers have previously said the protest would go ahead regardless of the court’s decision.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 27, 2020, 06:41:28 pm
Could be a case of "you asked for it"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 27, 2020, 07:32:06 pm
Sanity prevails in NSW at least, now is not the time given the H&S risks. Now we will see what the authorities do when it goes ahead illegally.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2020/jul/27/coronavirus-australia-live-news-victoria-outbreak-nsw-qld-andrews-berejiklian-morrison-melbourne-sydney-thai-rock-aged-care-live?page=with:block-5f1e70ec8f080665365e61fe#block-5f1e70ec8f080665365e61fe

The NSW court of appeal has dismissed an appeal from the organisers of a Black Lives Matter protest planned for Sydney.
It means that the rally tomorrow will be an “unauthorised event”.
Organisers have previously said the protest would go ahead regardless of the court’s decision.

Their placards should read: My Opinion Matters More Than Community Health & Responsibility.

I wholeheartedly agree with peoples' rights to protest, but in this virus climate - nuh. Use your imagination folks and come up with another way to draw attention to your cause without placing the health and wellbeing of those in your community at risk.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 27, 2020, 07:42:44 pm
"Black lives matter - ours do not"  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 27, 2020, 07:51:19 pm
Their placards should read: My Opinion Matters More Than Community Health & Responsibility.

I wholeheartedly agree with peoples' rights to protest, but in this virus climate - nuh. Use your imagination folks and come up with another way to draw attention to your cause without placing the health and wellbeing of those in your community at risk.
100% agree
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: rocky on July 27, 2020, 11:08:35 pm
We can't stop these self-indulgent, selfish, toss bags from having their march. It's going to happen, let's face it, they just don't care about anything but their agendas. But here's an idea. How about the media do something good for a change. Don't cover it. No TV or radio AT ALL. Hell, I'd even have the cops give it a miss. Let them run amok for all I care. Nothing will change them but no media coverage just makes them irrelevant. Which they are. God I'd love that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 27, 2020, 11:13:43 pm
We can't stop these self-indulgent, selfish, toss bags from having their march. It's going to happen, let's face it, they just don't care about anything but their agendas. But here's an idea. How about the media do something good for a change. Don't cover it. No TV or radio AT ALL. Hell, I'd even have the cops give it a miss. Let them run amok for all I care. Nothing will change them but no media coverage just makes them irrelevant. Which they are. God I'd love that.

The NSW copper said it would be full on for his march.  He wasn't mincing words either

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mantis on July 28, 2020, 01:25:45 am
"Black lives matter - ours do not"  ::)

A protest against what exactly?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 28, 2020, 09:34:26 am
@ Rocky

I would be amazed if the media don't cover it! 😉
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 28, 2020, 09:39:30 am
I hope it doesn't happen, but you can just feel in the current environment the masses are going to rise up and tell the minorities enough is enough, I hope it doesn't happen but it feels like it will.

I feel for the police and authorities when that happens, because there are going to be no winners.

If the minorities want anarchy, they seem to be heading down the right path, but they must surely know they are in the minority! I do not want my friends and family dying because some Norbit here thinks he has been persecuted like an African American.

We are not America, life here is nothing like America, we are not racially profiled, and police do not generally shoot on sight no matter what the media like to portray. ANy police that do shoot on sight suffer the full force of the law, and when it happens it's statistically representative of the population.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 28, 2020, 09:47:59 am
Just an aside, for reasons other than COVID people have to be COVID tested, for example if your doctor wants you to go into hospital for scans you currently have to be COVID tested negative before you are allowed to make an appointment. So potentially needing some scans my doctor asked me to get tested. I went to the drive through. You wouldn't credit how many protesters enter the queue in big 4WD and Twin Cabs, they basically get to the first check-point then refuse to move delaying all the testing, but the Army have ways of being persuasive and these tools eventually just drive around in a circle and join the back of the queue. The people doing the testing are just nurses and interns, these morons are making life hell for them.

In this regard, Dan Andrews needs to man up and remove some of their civil liberties, they exhibit behaviour that in my opinion no longer warrants them to be part of free society. Same to the Bunnings protesters.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 28, 2020, 10:50:39 am
Just an aside, for reasons other than COVID people have to be COVID tested, for example if your doctor wants you to go into hospital for scans you currently have to be COVID tested negative before you are allowed to make an appointment. So potentially needing some scans my doctor asked me to get tested. I went to the drive through. You wouldn't credit how many protesters enter the queue in big 4WD and Twin Cabs, they basically get to the first check-point then refuse to move delaying all the testing, but the Army have ways of being persuasive and these tools eventually just drive around in a circle and join the back of the queue. The people doing the testing are just nurses and interns, these morons are making life hell for them.

In this regard, Dan Andrews needs to man up and remove some of their civil liberties, they exhibit behaviour that in my opinion no longer warrants them to be part of free society. Same to the Bunnings protesters.
It simply makes my blood boil, they have the same affect on me as rapists and child abusers, I simply find them abhorent and cannot tolerate them. If I was confronted by one, man or woman, I fear how I would react. Better I just stay at home. As some else said, we need to stop giving them air time. Social media and general media companies should ban/block them immediately.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 28, 2020, 11:26:17 am
All lives matter.  So do tasers and pepper sprays. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 28, 2020, 12:57:45 pm
... and the BLM pussies in Sydney gave up without a yelp.  You're next Karen
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 28, 2020, 03:09:31 pm
... and the BLM pussies in Sydney gave up without a yelp.  You're next Karen
Who says you cant fix stupid. I wonder if they tried on the "I don't consent to being arrested " line ;D  ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 28, 2020, 10:21:56 pm
FMD, some new studies came out today.

One recent study investigated 100 recovering patients, all young(many under 30 with a group average of only 49), all two or three months past a relatively mild case of the SARS-CoV-2 infection. None requiring hospitalisation.

60% of those studied had signs of heart inflammation! That's endocarditis, myocarditis, and/or pericarditis. I know it's only a small study, it'll be interesting to see if it replicates around the globe.

Kids better take this seriously, years back my young niece died just a few days after childbirth from pericarditis / cardiomyopathy, when she got home from the hospital she slept a lot for a day or two, nothing unusual, then on the third day she collapsed and it was too late. He heart had been damaged by a massive build up of fluid around it, she was only 24.

I gather COVID ain't so funny now to the "it's just a cold" cranks and doubters, have the sniffles with a case of chronic heart disease "in 60% of mild cases!"

FFS, this is a long term tragedy unfolding, the USA is going to pay a high price for so many infections, and kids here do not take it seriously enough! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 29, 2020, 11:57:32 am
QLD has just declared Sydney a hotspot and closed the borders to Sydney people, dont know what this will mean for the AFL season...again
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 29, 2020, 12:18:51 pm
Just announced in the HS, Syd and GWS evacuating NSW in light of the sudden announcement by QLD.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 29, 2020, 12:42:16 pm
The state territorial disputes between QLD and NSW are now (IMO) based more on differing politics than dealing with the problem.  They're equally guilty of engendering concerns at the expense of the people they're expected to serve.  Frankly, they both disgust me and I haven't even started on VIC.  The "shift the blame" we can already witness commencing in the aged care homes debacle responsibilities only exacerbates the simmering anger.

My bitching for the day
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 29, 2020, 01:04:20 pm
The state territorial disputes between QLD and NSW are now (IMO) based more on differing politics than dealing with the problem.  They're equally guilty of engendering concerns at the expense of the people they're expected to serve.  Frankly, they both disgust me and I haven't even started on VIC.  The "shift the blame" we can already witness commencing in the aged care homes debacle responsibilities only exacerbates the simmering anger.

My bitching for the day

Absolutely horrified at the conditions that some older folks have had to endure in these aged care homes. Heads should roll. Greedy b@stards getting ahold of a license to run an aged care home but don't give a rusty fck about REALLY caring for old folks - just the loot.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 29, 2020, 01:20:05 pm
Absolutely horrified at the conditions that some older folks have had to endure in these aged care homes. Heads should roll. Greedy b@stards getting ahold of a license to run an aged care home but don't give a rusty fck about REALLY caring for old folks - just the loot.


I have grave concerns about services such as aged care being run by organisations whose main objective is to make money. Everything is run as cheaply as possible and this even applies to the security industry that was responsible for the quarantine cockups. We need a thorough investigation and fundamental reforms - just not good enough.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 29, 2020, 01:38:34 pm
To all those who think Covid is fake, that's my mates dear old Dad 2nd from the left. Wear a farken mask, get tested if you're crook and stay home.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 29, 2020, 01:41:43 pm
Absolutely horrified at the conditions that some older folks have had to endure in these aged care homes. Heads should roll. Greedy b@stards getting ahold of a license to run an aged care home but don't give a rusty fck about REALLY caring for old folks - just the loot.
Its gonna be on like donkey kong in the courts when all this crap settles.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 30, 2020, 06:18:22 am
Well, well, well.  The "I don't consent to being arrested" bitch got all she asked for.  I would cripple her financially after she first served 2 years jail.  People are just itching to exact really tough justice
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 30, 2020, 07:47:50 am
Well, well, well.  The "I don't consent to being arrested" bitch got all she asked for.  I would cripple her financially after she first served 2 years jail.  People are just itching to exact really tough justice
I assume you are referring to that Eve Black cretin who got arrested in Carlton? If so one word, karma. And I particularly enjoyed reading how she again refused to wind down her window so the coppers smashed it in. I hope the stupid, ignorant, selfish bitch gets hit with the full extent of the law. Coppers should make a statement in the media telling all these like minded  idiots "You're next".
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 30, 2020, 08:03:59 am
If they resist arrest surely the police can impound their cars, then have them pay to get it released.

But you just know this woman is likely to be either living off welfare or rich family, they are so stereotypical it is almost a joke. So many, not all I must concede, but many are professional full-time students, never having ever really left school or attended one regularly for that matter, they just game the system! They often describe themselves as business women, but tax time tells a different story.

How about those two kids, flew down to Melbourne to do some cheap and easy handbag shoplifting. Apparently, while restrictions are on crooks are having a field day all over shopping centres with not enough staff or security to stop them, and police otherwise occupied. Like some poor trader needs this on top of the rest of their troubles. Then they fly home and lie about ever being here, of course they have to lie, reason for visit shoplifting! I'm sure if some shopkeeper makes a citizens arrest the kids will claim brutality and the civil libertarians will go to town on the shop keeper, you just know that is going to happen.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 30, 2020, 08:19:26 am
If they resist arrest surely the police can impound their cars, then have them pay to get it released.

But you just know this woman is likely to be either living off welfare or rich family, they are so stereotypical it is almost a joke. So many, not all I must concede, but many are professional full-time students, never having ever really left school or attended one regularly for that matter, they just game the system! They often describe themselves as business women, but tax time tells a different story.
Their day of reckoning will come.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 30, 2020, 10:08:24 am
The age of entitlement.  We are about to really see regression in social standards as these entitled pratts join the real world.

The answer no to an outlandish request is unacceptable these days.  They ask for the world, and then crack it when you cannot provide it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 30, 2020, 10:23:16 am
And to be confirmed, over 700 new cases and 13 deaths in Victoria for yesterday.   
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 30, 2020, 10:32:01 am
And to be confirmed, over 700 new cases and 13 deaths in Victoria for yesterday.   
Thats bad.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on July 30, 2020, 12:35:23 pm
Thats bad.

Thats bad.

If we get 500 tomorrow then we would have averaged about 500 for 4 days in a row meaning we are flattening the curve.

If it's 1000 then we're in trouble.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: blueboys_1 on July 30, 2020, 07:52:20 pm
Their day of reckoning will come.

Yes it will. An even bigger issue is if it starts to spread around Queensland, which could put even more pressure on the AFL, and it could be the straw that breaks the camels back. I really hope not. Sport is the one thing that is keeping people sane in these trying times. If we all pull together hopefully we can get back to some kind of normal in the not to distant future.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on July 31, 2020, 12:00:28 am
There's an epidemiologist who talks on the wireless every so often.  She reckons that worrying about the daily numbers is rubbish and the only way to get a handle on what's happening is to look at the number of cases over the last 14 days.  Her assessment of those figures suggests that we've got it under control - let's hope she's right!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on July 31, 2020, 08:50:53 am
A week is a long time in a pandemic.

Up here in Brisbane....Last Thursday I went for a Covid test at a local testing station. I drove straight in. There was another car just behind me, but we were the only two there. I was tested at 3.30pm and received the result (negative) at 10.30am next morning.

At the same testing centre yesterday there was a four hour wait for a test.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 31, 2020, 09:24:41 am
A week is a long time in a pandemic.

Up here in Brisbane....Last Thursday I went for a Covid test at a local testing station. I drove straight in. There was another car just behind me, but we were the only two there. I was tested at 3.30pm and received the result (negative) at 10.30am next morning.

At the same testing centre yesterday there was a four hour wait for a test.

Yep.  4 weeks ago, it didnt even look likely we would lock down for a second time.

The whole country is going to go through this.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 31, 2020, 02:16:21 pm
Yep.  4 weeks ago, it didnt even look likely we would lock down for a second time.

The whole country is going to go through this.
Interesting charts in HS for each state showing test nos and cases on the same graph. Ill try and post them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 31, 2020, 02:23:16 pm
4 more
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 31, 2020, 02:23:37 pm
last one
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 01, 2020, 11:52:07 am
@Gointocarlton

Yep, thanks for those graphs. A few of us have suspected and stated as much, the truth is most likely public infection rates are higher than reported in some regions but minor/mild cases are not being categorised as SARS-CoV-2 due to zero testing, not because those regions are clear. You get a certain number of cases for a certain number of tests on average. It is the Trump mentality, don't test and you don't get COVID!

The problem is the minor/mild cases, the cases not being reported or found, have very very real long term effects!

btw., Initially you may think that conclusion is wrong, but look at the scale of the left or right Y-Axis indexes and you see they change from graph to graph, it's a bit deceptive.

The other deceptive issue is you have to look at where those tests were made, lots of tests in a remote indigenous community in the Great Sandy Desert are not the equal of the same number of tests made in a Carlton High rise apartment block!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 01, 2020, 05:41:25 pm
Just heard that Buckley and Sanderson are the two Coll coaches who broke Covid restrictions via game of tennis.  This should prove interesting.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 01, 2020, 05:44:24 pm
Coll fined $50k, the two individuals to pay half of it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 01, 2020, 06:08:03 pm
I've gone in to bat for the state and federal leaders re their management of the C-19. But I am a little confused by Dan of late. When the first 'wave' of C-19 came, he was on it like a lion on its prey. But with the 2nd wave he's nibbled at it... bit by bit. Maybe he thought we have the resources now to allow some infections so the economy is not as impacted as last time... not sure.

But his approach has been somewhat reactive and if he expected people to 'self isolate' in toto and not go to work if at all if symptomatic, then he was very, very naive - has a lot more faith in we humans than I do (most folks are rippers but, sadly, you gotta plan for the damaging minority whose ignorance, sneakiness and stupidity will undermine your trust and cause trouble).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 01, 2020, 06:50:17 pm
I've gone in to bat for the state and federal leaders re their management of the C-19. But I am a little confused by Dan of late. When the first 'wave' of C-19 came, he was on it like a lion on its prey. But with the 2nd wave he's nibbled at it... bit by bit. Maybe he thought we have the resources now to allow some infections so the economy is not as impacted as last time... not sure.

But his approach has been somewhat reactive and if he expected people to 'self isolate' in toto and not go to work if at all if symptomatic, then he was very, very naive - has a lot more faith in we humans than I do (most folks are rippers but, sadly, you gotta plan for the damaging minority whose ignorance, sneakiness and stupidity will undermine your trust and cause trouble).

He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

People were calling for his head because he went over and above what was expected at the time. Too harsh. Should've opened everything up sooner,  etc.

Now people are saying he is not harsh enough.

He's caught between a rock and a hard place and there is no right answer.

Stop the spread by locking down everyone and kill the economy.
Have some trust in your people to do the right thing, and keep the economy alive.....and have your people ruin it for you.

I think he is trying to please everyone, and in the process is pleasing no one.

Poor bugger can't win.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 01, 2020, 07:06:03 pm
He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

People were calling for his head because he went over and above what was expected at the time. Too harsh. Should've opened everything up sooner,  etc.

Now people are saying he is not harsh enough.

He's caught between a rock and a hard place and there is no right answer.

Stop the spread by locking down everyone and kill the economy.
Have some trust in your people to do the right thing, and keep the economy alive.....and have your people ruin it for you.

I think he is trying to please everyone, and in the process is pleasing no one.

Poor bugger can't win.


Actually, I totally agree. No matter what you do, many will find you wrong. I thought he did extremely well the first time so I was not in the critical corner which is why I was confused with him, seemingly, soft pedalling this time.

Overall, however, I really do think all state and federal leaders have done well and hopefully the bulge in Victorian numbers this time will soon be under control.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on August 01, 2020, 09:56:37 pm
Dan has blood on his hands due to his quarantine decisions leading to the deaths of many and the longterm health problems of a great many others. The control freak and his government haven't been able to tell us how the decision was made and who should be accountable. This inquiry is too little and too late.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 01, 2020, 10:23:38 pm
6 week lockdown coming Wed ala NZ style in metro melb, only chemists, grocery stores and petrol stations, everything else shut incl PT. One person only per household only at a time allowed out for supplies. Must remain within 5km of your house. Needs to be done. Regional Vic and Mitchshire will be at stage 3.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 01, 2020, 10:25:15 pm
Coll fined $50k, the two individuals to pay half of it.
Buckey and Sanderson played tennis with Alecia Molic and one other, the will apparently pay out of their own pockets.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 01, 2020, 10:25:19 pm
6 week lockdown coming Wed ala NZ style in metro melb, only chemists, grocery stores and petrol stations, everything else shut incl PT. One person only per household only at a time allowed out for supplies. Must remain within 5km of your house. Needs to be done. Regional Vic and Mitchshire will be at stage 3.

I just came on to post the same thing.

Where did you hear that from? Its doing the rounds.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 01, 2020, 10:26:55 pm
I just came on to post the same thing.

Where did you hear that from? Its doing the rounds.
I know a guy, name's Dan.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 01, 2020, 10:31:15 pm
I know a guy, name's Dan.
Has he announced it already?

First heard this rumour a few hours ago. Was told it will be announced tomorrow.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: rocky on August 01, 2020, 10:31:27 pm
6 week lockdown coming Wed ala NZ style in metro melb, only chemists, grocery stores and petrol stations, everything else shut incl PT. One person only per household only at a time allowed out for supplies. Must remain within 5km of your house. Needs to be done. Regional Vic and Mitchshire will be at stage 3.
Sorry G2C what is "PT"?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 01, 2020, 10:31:47 pm
Sorry G2C what is "PT"?
Public transport.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 01, 2020, 11:07:40 pm
Has he announced it already?

First heard this rumour a few hours ago. Was told it will be announced tomorrow.
Not announced yet but heard from people who work in gov depts that theyve been told thats whats going to happen. Lets see whats announced (if at all) tomorrow.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 02, 2020, 07:17:57 am
Herald Sun reporting that the premier is set to pull the trigger in stage 4 either today or Monday, construction would continue with additional. That would mean Public Transport would need to continue. The info I got was not quite correct.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 02, 2020, 09:04:15 am
Herald Sun reporting that the premier is set to pull the trigger in stage 4 either today or Monday, construction would continue with additional. That would mean Public Transport would need to continue. The info I got was not quite correct.

What i heard was that construction would NOT continue. Same as NZ stage 4
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 02, 2020, 11:41:42 am
For those playing at home. Here is the Dan Andrews 'cheat sheet'.

His press conferences decoded.
--------------------------------------
11am = not terrible
After 12pm = bad
Wearing a suit =  real bad news
Sports jacket = moderately bad news
Northface jumper = it's the weekend
Wearing a suit on the weekend after 12pm = $hlt's f**ked
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 02, 2020, 01:00:51 pm
What i heard was that construction would NOT continue. Same as NZ stage 4
Heard the same Krud, remains to be seen.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 02, 2020, 02:33:27 pm
For those playing at home. Here is the Dan Andrews 'cheat sheet'.

His press conferences decoded.
--------------------------------------
11am = not terrible
After 12pm = bad
Wearing a suit =  real bad news
Sports jacket = moderately bad news
Northface jumper = it's the weekend
Wearing a suit on the weekend after 12pm = $hlt's f**ked
Drum roll.....and its Wearing a suit on the weekend after 12pm = $hlt's f**ked
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 02, 2020, 02:46:27 pm
Heard the same Krud, remains to be seen.

Another 24 hours wait it seems  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 02, 2020, 03:07:26 pm
Another 24 hours wait it seems  ::)
Yeah, 3 categories, 1 business as usual, 2 restricted output and 3 closed if you cant work from home.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 02, 2020, 03:56:22 pm
When is the next state election?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 02, 2020, 04:23:39 pm
When is the next state election?

2022
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 02, 2020, 05:30:04 pm
A hidden stat you wont find in the media, 200% increase in the suicide rate in Victoria due to Covid19....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on August 02, 2020, 08:06:33 pm
Elwood - not having a go, but where is that stat from - I have seen it mentioned a few times.  ABS posted their stats on 25/9/19 for 2018.

There are a couple of articles that speak about 2019 - but haven't seen anything that officially compares 2020 against anything.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 02, 2020, 08:16:16 pm
Elwood - not having a go, but where is that stat from - I have seen it mentioned a few times.  ABS posted their stats on 25/9/19 for 2018.

There are a couple of articles that speak about 2019 - but haven't seen anything that officially compares 2020 against anything.
Check your PMs
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 02, 2020, 09:46:33 pm
A hidden stat you wont find in the media, 200% increase in the suicide rate in Victoria due to Covid19....
I often wonder how much of that is due to COVID, and the lock-down effects on trade and employment, versus the effects on some caused by the media's hysterical reporting and sensationalism!

There are a lot of people just soaking in everything the TV stations and newspapers say, without being mindful enough to cast a critical eye, it must be draining, it must be oppressive. That's not even considering the effects of social media, which is another whole level worse and unaccountable!

Look at those graphs posted earlier, most will just look at them and never read the values on either axis, they just see the shapes and assume they all tell the same story. I find my elderly mother-in-law is particularly vulnerable, especially to the late afternoon news sensationalism. There would be plenty in a bad head-space even before this COVID situation who dread turning on the TV, but can't help doing so!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 02, 2020, 10:09:25 pm
I often wonder how much of that is due to COVID, and the lock-down effects on trade and employment, versus the effects on some caused by the media's hysterical reporting and sensationalism!

There are a lot of people just soaking in everything the TV stations and newspapers say, without being mindful enough to cast a critical eye, it must be draining, it must be oppressive. That's not even considering the effects of social media, which is another whole level worse and unaccountable!

Look at those graphs posted earlier, most will just look at them and never read the values on either axis, they just see the shapes and assume they all tell the same story. I find my elderly mother-in-law is particularly vulnerable, especially to the late afternoon news sensationalism. There would be plenty in a bad head-space even before this COVID situation who dread turning on the TV, but can't help doing so!
LP,I think the reporting as it always does covers the horror stories more and as you say the vulnerable folk with issues pre covid find it tough to wake up each day and read and see the bad news.
There would be an element of employment related deaths I guess to similar to what the farming/rural industry has gone and is going through. I'm sure we have some posters from CSC doing it tough too and lets hope they are ok and can reach out to family/friends etc. Paramedics are attending far more mental health calls than covid cases is what I have been told...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 02, 2020, 10:42:26 pm
LP,I think the reporting as it always does covers the horror stories more and as you say the vulnerable folk with issues pre covid find it tough to wake up each day and read and see the bad news.
There would be an element of employment related deaths I guess to similar to what the farming/rural industry has gone and is going through. I'm sure we have some posters from CSC doing it tough too and lets hope they are ok and can reach out to family/friends etc. Paramedics are attending far more mental health calls than covid cases is what I have been told...
Interesting, I had a mate text me just yesterday telling me alot of his male clients are telling him they are struggling. Gotta speak up boys, talk, get help, anywhere, anytime.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 03, 2020, 08:25:59 am
I often wonder how much of that is due to COVID, and the lock-down effects on trade and employment, versus the effects on some caused by the media's hysterical reporting and sensationalism!

There are a lot of people just soaking in everything the TV stations and newspapers say, without being mindful enough to cast a critical eye, it must be draining, it must be oppressive. That's not even considering the effects of social media, which is another whole level worse and unaccountable!

Look at those graphs posted earlier, most will just look at them and never read the values on either axis, they just see the shapes and assume they all tell the same story. I find my elderly mother-in-law is particularly vulnerable, especially to the late afternoon news sensationalism. There would be plenty in a bad head-space even before this COVID situation who dread turning on the TV, but can't help doing so!

Absolutely, Spotted One.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 03, 2020, 09:40:49 am
Paramedics are attending far more mental health calls than covid cases is what I have been told...
I know people who have experienced this first hand, isolation and boredom do strange things to people even if they are not struggling for cash. A lot of kids(kids by my standard) are resorting to pills because they are bored and it's cheaper than booze. I know of one couple who nearly lost their son after he was given a horse tranquilliser(Ketamine) by "a mate", as a side effect his blood sugar fell so low the paramedics and hospital thought he was heading into diabetic shock. They couldn;t really treast him other than get him to eat which is a bit difficult for someone who is delirious, and they basically had to ride it out until it went one way or the other because they didn't know what else was in the tablet. This kid is or was on the fringe of being a VFL footballer.

Who knows what else they put in those tablets to bulk them up, ..................... "given to him by a mate"! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 06, 2020, 04:27:07 pm
Two or three weeks ago the media was telling us that we are all getting too fat from sitting around in isolation eating and drinking too much.

Then Dan said reduce the staff on warehouse shifts by 30% to improve social distancing and reduce transmission.

Now the media says reducing warehouse staff will affect a proportional amount of deliveries and we will all starve because we can't get enough food!

What a bunch of ar5eholes the media are!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 07, 2020, 10:52:08 am
Interesting side-effect of isolation and home working.

Apparently people working from home are starting to suffer PTSD like symptoms.

It appears the problem is that in the working from home situation, the corporate psychopaths and megalomaniac micromanagers have lost oversight of their usual office victims. So they are pestering home workers to death with endless meetings, reporting cycles and out of hours updates or requests. People are too scared of losing their job not to answer the call, so they are working longer than ever before from home and more stressed than ever!

 In other words paranoid pricks are making the whole situation far worse by becoming bigger pricks than usual!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 07, 2020, 12:02:55 pm
Interesting side-effect of isolation and home working.

Apparently people working from home are starting to suffer PTSD like symptoms.

It appears the problem is that in the working from home situation, the corporate psychopaths and megalomaniac micromanagers have lost oversight of their usual office victims. So they are pestering home workers to death with endless meetings, reporting cycles and out of hours updates or requests. People are too scared of losing their job not to answer the call, so they are working longer than ever before from home and more stressed than ever!

 In other words pricks are making the whole situation far worse by becoming bigger pricks than usual!
So true, you will always get scumbags taking advantage of others in times of crisis, having to accept extra work for fear of losing their job and being abused by managers. In my line of work its been junior engineers who get abused by Managers/Administrators and are given extra work to take home that wasnt necessary but just done to try and change the system of reporting line and to set precedence. Now there are less full time staff in many jobs a lot of managers will see this as a way to permanently  reduce numbers and increase workloads on remaining staff.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 07, 2020, 03:37:02 pm
500 plus cases of infected people in isolation/quarantine not home when called up or door knocked for check in referred to police. I say send them a double $1652 present in the mail, fark the kents.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 07, 2020, 04:39:15 pm
$826,000 GTC without your levy.  Cripple all of them
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 07, 2020, 06:53:30 pm
$826,000 GTC without your levy.  Cripple all of them
Double it and give it to the needy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 08, 2020, 09:36:33 am
500 plus cases of infected people in isolation/quarantine not home when called up or door knocked for check in referred to police. I say send them a double $1652 present in the mail, fark the kents.

Couldn't agree more. Self interested bastards. $5000 first offense. $5000 again for 2nd offense with 3 months in the house.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 08, 2020, 12:28:49 pm
Couldn't agree more. Self interested bastards. $5000 first offense. $5000 again for 2nd offense with 3 months in the house.
Done, sold.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on August 08, 2020, 01:46:43 pm
I'm beginning to think that there are a lot of people who don't have a direct connection with CV19 - they then say that it doesn't affect them or anyone they know so stuff the rules.

I was in a meeting yesterday and one participant proudly spoke about breaking curfew every night.   Only when I told him off and related how our family had to get tested because a kid at our daughters kinder tested positive he took some notice.   Another participant then told of a friend who was an early case in March who hasn't got their taste back yet.  He then understood and promised not to do it again.

Bit like those suggesting punishment should include an unprotected visit to ICU.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 08, 2020, 02:29:27 pm
I'm beginning to think that there are a lot of people who don't have a direct connection with CV19 - they then say that it doesn't affect them or anyone they know so stuff the rules.

I was in a meeting yesterday and one participant proudly spoke about breaking curfew every night.   Only when I told him off and related how our family had to get tested because a kid at our daughters kinder tested positive he took some notice.   Another participant then told of a friend who was an early case in March who hasn't got their taste back yet.  He then understood and promised not to do it again.

Bit like those suggesting punishment should include an unprotected visit to ICU.
A. It staggers me that people are that stupid these days B. I cant believe how selfish people are, particularly the young.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on August 08, 2020, 04:55:00 pm
I reckon a lot in their mid 50s to 60s don't think the rules apply to them either. From what I've seen
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 08, 2020, 06:57:10 pm
We live in an era where a very cavalier attitude has developed towards laws, rules and regulations. This can be seen everyday in many different circumstances.  Just watch and witness how the road rules are flouted as a matter of course.  Changing this attitude would  require a big effort and a determined government which has the electoral stomach for it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 08, 2020, 07:25:48 pm
We live in an era where a very cavalier attitude has developed towards laws, rules and regulations. This can be seen everyday in many different circumstances.  Just watch and witness how the road rules are flouted as a matter of course.  Changing this attitude would  require a big effort and a determined government which has the electoral stomach for it.
A large portion of society these days just doesn't have any respect for law and order, the proportion is growing IMO. Like the gun problems in the US, there is no turning back and it will never be fixed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 08, 2020, 08:17:32 pm
A large portion of society these days just doesn't have any respect for law and order, the proportion is growing IMO. Like the gun problems in the US, there is no turning back and it will never be fixed.

You nailed it, GTC, with that word, 'respect' or the lack of it.

And the Fluffy One is right on when he talks of cavalier attitudes. Well, there's a helluva wake up call being issued to those who lack respect and are pregnant with entitlement - take careful note, you people who are growing the c0ckhead ranks, it can all be snatched from you in a heartbeat. Well now that I've depressed myself, think I'll enjoy a pie and watch the footy...😟
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 08, 2020, 08:22:57 pm
A large portion of society these days just doesn't have any respect for law and order, the proportion is growing IMO. Like the gun problems in the US, there is no turning back and it will never be fixed.

The sequitur to such disregard for law and order can often be totalitarian government.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 10, 2020, 11:31:09 am
The sequitur to such disregard for law and order can often be totalitarian government.

In the "new world" don't expect too much sympathy for organizations such as extinction rebellion.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 10, 2020, 11:42:22 am
The only thing I expect from Extinction Rebellion et al is the attempted destruction of society as we know it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 10, 2020, 11:47:35 am
Sabotage derails progress as much as it derails a marauder.

There is no progress to be found in widespread anarchy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 10, 2020, 11:53:00 am
The only thing I expect from Extinction Rebellion et al is the attempted destruction of society as we know it.

Or their own Cookie. :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 10, 2020, 01:55:36 pm
Or their own Cookie. :)
The useful idiots are always the first in line for elimination when the "new world" arrives.  >:D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 10, 2020, 11:08:51 pm
These are the bunch of spastics in charge of the hotel quarantine fiasco in Victoria.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/coronavirus/explosive-video-lays-operation-behind-victorias-hotel-quarantine-fiasco-bare/news-story/f5e66f7d4114454f9627377397c88e38
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 11, 2020, 07:15:08 am
Behind the paywall.

In other news as far as a strategy goes the weakest part of any system is people.

For me, the most culpable person is the returned traveller who spread coronavirus around and thumbed their nose at quarantine.  The next culpable is the person that allowed it to happen and actively participated. 

Ive heard a variety of rhetoric around this virus from the get go.  If anyone spread anything around stating only the elderly would die, or only .001 percent of the population would die from this, and its just  virus, then you too are at fault.

Its that mentality that has brought us to where we are today. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on August 11, 2020, 04:21:54 pm
A kid at the kinder our daughter goes to tested positive two weeks ago (28/7).  We just got our text from DHHS saying we need to isolate until 12/7 (yes - before the test - we are assuming they mean 12/8) and have a test on or after 8/7 (we are assuming they mean 7 August).

Good thing we were proactive and told families that were going that they should get tested.  As for what to do about a deep clean - that's a debacle - Call DHHS - no call DET - no Call DHHS...

(Kid is fine, all that have been tested that I know of are negative)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 11, 2020, 05:21:06 pm
A kid at the kinder our daughter goes to tested positive two weeks ago (28/7).  We just got our text from DHHS saying we need to isolate until 12/7 (yes - before the test - we are assuming they mean 12/8) and have a test on or after 8/7 (we are assuming they mean 7 August).

Good thing we were proactive and told families that were going that they should get tested.  As for what to do about a deep clean - that's a debacle - Call DHHS - no call DET - no Call DHHS...

(Kid is fine, all that have been tested that I know of are negative)

Becoming more and more apparent the monumental c0ckup by someone or a group within the state's health dept.

The upside is that this situation will demand and cause all state health departments to be far better prepared for the next pandemic. And FFS states, get the military involved from the get-go, they have folks trained in managing this stuff PROPERLY and any pr1cks who want to be smart@rses might just wear some no nonsense treatment.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 11, 2020, 05:23:26 pm
A kid at the kinder our daughter goes to tested positive two weeks ago (28/7).  We just got our text from DHHS saying we need to isolate until 12/7 (yes - before the test - we are assuming they mean 12/8) and have a test on or after 8/7 (we are assuming they mean 7 August).

Good thing we were proactive and told families that were going that they should get tested.  As for what to do about a deep clean - that's a debacle - Call DHHS - no call DET - no Call DHHS...

(Kid is fine, all that have been tested that I know of are negative)

If you think thats bad, I know of an Ambulance Patient Transfer driver who tested positive, and never got a call re contact tracing.

After 7 days he proactively called them, and thats when his contact tracing commenced.

meanwhile, anyone he had been in contact with whom he hadnt contacted himself was walking around happy as larry.

Extrapolate that out to potential other passengers he had in his truck between getting Covid, and then feeling symptoms, and testing positive.

lucky he did the right thing the second he started feeling unwell.  His co driver took a few days to show symptoms, and tested negative on the first go, then tested positive only after symptomatic too.

I get the idea they really are working through it as they go.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 11, 2020, 05:24:20 pm
Oh, and the ADF have been doing the contact tracing for anyone who is interested in slinging mud.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 11, 2020, 05:31:52 pm
Oh, and the ADF have been doing the contact tracing for anyone who is interested in slinging mud.

Oh dear. The more we learn about the 2nd wave in Melbourne the uglier it gets. Was/is there anyone involved in this who actually knows what they're doing!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 11, 2020, 05:46:44 pm
Oh dear. The more we learn about the 2nd wave in Melbourne the uglier it gets. Was/is there anyone involved in this who actually knows what they're doing!!
If you watch that video I posted, those imbeciles were saying how much experience they had.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 11, 2020, 08:31:39 pm
If you watch that video I posted, those imbeciles were saying how much experience they had.

Doesn't matter what political party we support, the situation in Victoria was entirely preventable.

I should mention that I have a dog in this fight. My father is in a retirement home and although he was and is a pr1ck, he's my dad and I care for him. He has bad emphysema but is otherwise healthy with a good few years in front of him... I've been informed by BaptCare that if he gets C-19 he's had it.

How many fathers/mothers/grandfathers/uncles/aunts/nonnas/nanas etc., have and/or will cark it due to embarrassing poor management?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 11, 2020, 09:10:01 pm
Andrews' claim that he did not know of the ADF support call (the offer was made by the feds in April, May and June) was an utter lie.  That is not politics.  It's a 'effin disgrace.   >:D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 11, 2020, 09:22:03 pm
Andrews' claim that he did not know of the ADF support call (the offer was made by the feds in April, May and June) was an utter lie.  That is not politics.  It's a 'effin disgrace.   >:D

Yes, I lost a bit more respect for him there. No bloody need to out and out lie at this point in time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on August 11, 2020, 11:40:49 pm
There's a  little bit of 'not so subtle' politicking going on.
I think some of them realise there will be a reckoning once this is done and dusted.

Scomo and Andrews are almost at pains to assert how closely co-operative they are but....

Andrews (who I credit for fronting up each day) will constantly make the point that Aged Care is a Commonwealth responsibility.
That may be the case, but he frames it like the state is actually coming to the 'rescue' of the Commonwealth in coping with the issues in this sector.

For the conservatives.... Morrison is staying above it while letting his attack dogs like Hunt and Frydenberg loose to make the attacks.

The right wing commentators are also laying the boot in.

The last thing we need at the moment is political point scoring...even subtle stuff.
Folks will eventually be held accountable, but now is not the time for political games.

 

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 12, 2020, 07:54:40 am
There's a  little bit of 'not so subtle' politicking going on.
I think some of them realise there will be a reckoning once this is done and dusted.

Scomo and Andrews are almost at pains to assert how closely co-operative they are but....
Have you seen how flaky some of the bureaucrats are that have been involved in this just to get their hands onto the gravy train?

I suspect one or two politicians might well fall on their sword at the end of this, it probably won;t take much encouragement at all, but that is a long long way from done yet. If they walked away mid-fight they'd be scum for all eternity.

However, I suspect those OH&S type stair climbing megalomaniac bureaucrats are in for a hell of a shock when the audits are done, a bunch of them are going to the wall, that seems to be already in motion!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 12, 2020, 08:00:48 am
There's a  little bit of 'not so subtle' politicking going on.
I think some of them realise there will be a reckoning once this is done and dusted.

Scomo and Andrews are almost at pains to assert how closely co-operative they are but....

Andrews (who I credit for fronting up each day) will constantly make the point that Aged Care is a Commonwealth responsibility.
That may be the case, but he frames it like the state is actually coming to the 'rescue' of the Commonwealth in coping with the issues in this sector.

For the conservatives.... Morrison is staying above it while letting his attack dogs like Hunt and Frydenberg loose to make the attacks.

The right wing commentators are also laying the boot in.

The last thing we need at the moment is political point scoring...even subtle stuff.
Folks will eventually be held accountable, but now is not the time for political games
.

 


100%, now is not the time, there is a common enemy to defeat, band together to get it done.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 12, 2020, 08:04:34 am
Have you seen how flaky some of the bureaucrats are that have been involved in this just to get their hands onto the gravy train?

I suspect one or two politicians might well fall on their sword at the end of this, it probably won;t take much encouragement at all, but that is a long long way from done yet. If they walked away mid-fight they'd be scum for all eternity.

However, I suspect those OH&S type stair climbing megalomaniac bureaucrats are in for a hell of a shock when the audits are done, a bunch of them are going to the wall, that seems to be already in motion!
I read today a class action law firm is fielding enquiries from companies keen to take on the Andrews Gov. Just wait until the aged care homes come under attack by angry relatives who have lost loved ones under their care, then you'll see fireworks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 12, 2020, 08:10:33 am
I read today a class action law firm is fielding enquiries from companies keen to take on the Andrews Gov. Just wait until the aged care homes come under attack by angry relatives who have lost loved ones under their care, then you'll see fireworks.
Not just that but hospitals.

I worry that the administrative types will buck pass responsibility to the ward staff, There are lots of non-COVID related legal cases that will go forward where the current isolation rules, staff levels, or lack of resources have apparently contributed to a death. Several elderly COVID free people have passed due to pulmonary aspiration events in ICU, it does happen but the numbers are drastically up and it will be assumed by the lawyers that is because they are getting a lower level of attention than they would have normally.

A smart government would be putting some protective laws in place right now to stop the legal bastards profiteering. I've no problem with genuine compensation, but that shouldn't be funding someone's retirement villa in Portsea or Sorrento!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 12, 2020, 09:36:22 am
I read today a class action law firm is fielding enquiries from companies keen to take on the Andrews Gov. Just wait until the aged care homes come under attack by angry relatives who have lost loved ones under their care, then you'll see fireworks.

Most of the worst culprits in the aged care facilities are privately owned.

The publically run nursing homes are the ones that actually have managed to succesfully avert COVID disasters.

Why?  They actually had process, procedure, and PPE in place.

The privately owned ones are socialising their stuff ups, and capitalising their profits.

I dont see how Andrews government is culpable in that environment.

A lot of intellectual lightweights are slinging mud over these issues.  I have seen one where supposedly families of patients were being offered cash to list their families death as a COVID death and people actually believed it.  Why would families of deceased accept this, and why would the nursing homes offer it when it implicates them in being culpable for the transmission?

Anyway, it will be very interesting to see what unfolds. 

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 12, 2020, 10:43:47 am
Most of the worst culprits in the aged care facilities are privately owned.


They're the ones I was mainly referring to, I hope their insurances are up to date.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 12, 2020, 11:13:06 am
The Federal gov puts over $12Bpa of taxpayer money into private aged care. We must demand much tougher oversight of how well this money is being used to provide the essential services. Sounds to me that there are a lot of piggy snouts in the trough! The gov is still responsible even if service provision.has been outsourced to for profit companies .
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 12, 2020, 11:46:17 am
The Federal gov puts over $12Bpa of taxpayer money into private aged care. We must demand much tougher oversight of how well this money is being used to provide the essential services. Sounds to me that there are a lot of piggy snouts in the trough! The gov is still responsible even if service provision.has been outsourced to for profit companies .


Federal or State government?

Does this mean that the federal government need to save face, and might decide to paint the picture that its all state governments fault?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 12, 2020, 11:55:09 am
Federal or State government?

Does this mean that the federal government need to save face, and might decide to paint the picture that its all state governments fault?

Federal as I understand it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 12, 2020, 11:57:41 am
Federal as I understand it.
Who cares who runs it, when there is an emergency locals need to respond. Do we wait for the Queen to send firefighters when there's a fire on crown land?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 12, 2020, 11:58:51 am
Federal as I understand it.
Correct, responsibility for aged care became a Federal Gov responsibility years ago, but of course that doesn't mean States can wash their hands of it and do not have a role to play or can't boost the circumstances. I think that has been that way for almost a decade now.

It seems to me there is a game of pass the parcel, the Feds accuse the State of doing the bare minimum or nothing, the State accuses the Feds of not doing enough!

Ironically, historically the Feds accused the States of dropping the ball and rorting the system, and the Federal solution put in place more ways for the dodgy corporate entities to rort the system! In many ways it parallels the rorting of the Fed controlled training schemes, work for the dole, etc., etc.. Perhaps we need to ask Andrew "Vlad" Demetriou for some advice?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 12, 2020, 12:07:11 pm
Federal as I understand it.

Definite Federal
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 12, 2020, 12:35:29 pm
I continue to marvel at how privatisation and self-regulation work so brilliantly. Pft, who needs accountability? Just as long as the profiteers are making huge amounts of loot off the elderly and the suffering... and keep the elderly out of sight.  >:(  :-X
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 12, 2020, 12:52:16 pm
I continue to marvel at how privatisation and self-regulation work so brilliantly. Pft, who needs accountability? Just as long as the profiteers are making huge amounts of loot off the elderly and the suffering... and keep the elderly out of sight.  >:(  :-X
I'm conflicted to bag out the industry in general, because there are some who are genuine about aged care, I've relatives and associates in the game of aged care and disability care(As in the blue bus to put an offensive label on it), and the tell is real proper care cost$, and in the absence of family participation it really really really cost$!

Mind you, some elderly will happily rot away in the knowledge the money goes to the children, that is a choice issue. In some cases they book themselves into facilities that expect family participation to pick up the shortfall of the cheaper 24x7 emergency overwatch, but knowing full well they won't see the family for dust, say for Christmas or a birthday if the family remember. That means "official" charities, some that are not always so noble or charitable pick up the slack. btw., Staff and volunteers are no longer permitted by workplace law to pick up that slack, you can't hand out gifts, organise a game of cards, bingo or just take someone for a walk in a wheelchair with being formally approved, tracked and traced!

But I'm not surprised the bad eggs have been exposed, those operators would be jumping ship as the costs rose, expect to find them in a flash Singapore, Fiji or Delhi Hotel, or on a yacht cruising the Mediterranean.

Actually Dehli or Singapore is too expensive, these gold chain covered, Rolex wearing, Ferrari driving, block of flat owning millionaire psychos are probably at a cheap cheap flash hotel in Sri Lanka, having breakfast and a bottle of sparkling for a dollar and complaining about the service! That description is too accurate to be a stereotype!

Also, I don't think it's an oddity that some of the loudest client squealers are coming from people who just happened to remember to visit poor poor old timer when COVID hit the fan! I presume there is a last will and testament involved, and if there isn't perhaps some dodgy lawyer, they'll probably try and sue people for comments like this if the case against the facility fails!

Not that some cases aren't genuine.

When you walk into the discount facilities and all you can smell is urine you know that the money has being siphoned elsewhere, the stories I've heard from industry insiders is horrific, some of them have had careers kiboshed or have collapsed from stress while trying to blow the whistle! It's been going on for years and years, long before the Feds took over, and ever since!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 12, 2020, 01:00:48 pm
Where there are troughs you will always find snouts getting into them. Government funding is a magnificent trough for accomplished snouts.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 12, 2020, 08:44:03 pm
Bit sad for NZ, they took such a massive social and fiscal hit going for eradication, and it seems it has failed.

That probably says more about human hubris than it does about medicine or society, I can't imagine that they did what they did in ignorance of the history of Spanish Flu. It was a high risk high reward strategy, and they'll be on the Isolation Merry-Go-Round now with the bulk of the rest of the planet!

Things might become even worse in the Northern Hemisphere in coming months, humanity is not taking is seriously, I've mates in the UK, Italy and Germany are very concerned. They tell me people are giving up trying to isolate and stay safe, the younger general public has an air of entitlement, for a freedom that comes at the expense of others. The dwindling oldies, those handful remaining from the war, think isolation is a relative doddle.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 12, 2020, 08:58:07 pm
Bit sad for NZ, they took such a massive social and fiscal hit going for eradication, and it seems it has failed.

That probably says more about human hubris than it does about medicine or society, I can't imagine that they did what they did in ignorance of the history of Spanish Flu. It was a high risk high reward strategy, and they'll be on the Isolation Merry-Go-Round now with the bulk of the rest of the planet!

Things might become even worse in the Northern Hemisphere in coming months, humanity is not taking is seriously, I've mates in the UK, Italy and Germany are very concerned. They tell me people are giving up trying to isolate and stay safe, the younger general public has an air of entitlement, for a freedom that comes at the expense of others. The dwindling oldies, those handful remaining from the war, think isolation is a relative doddle.

To take emotion out of something that is extremely emotional...
Could this be "the pandemic the earth had to have" ??

As humans, our ignorance towards the killing of mother earth is one thing.
Our ignorance towards some relatively basic health methods is another....and ironically....could become a mass extinction of our species, and go a large way towards healing the earth in the process.

Just something different to think about.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: everblue on August 12, 2020, 09:11:08 pm
Bit sad for NZ, they took such a massive social and fiscal hit going for eradication, and it seems it has failed.

Not sure it has failed just yet. 

They had 4 instances of community transmission and have instigated a 3 day lock down.

I think this a reasonably conservative reaction to a small but unexpected infection.  Not an over-reaction.  And certainly not the under-reaction that is playing out across many jurisdictions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 12, 2020, 09:44:12 pm
You watch the numbers disappear after the 'blink and you'll miss it' lock down.

Vote #1 Ardern.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 13, 2020, 08:32:52 am
To take emotion out of something that is extremely emotional...
Could this be "the pandemic the earth had to have" ??

As humans, our ignorance towards the killing of mother earth is one thing.
Our ignorance towards some relatively basic health methods is another....and ironically....could become a mass extinction of our species, and go a large way towards healing the earth in the process.

Just something different to think about.
Yes, it is an interesting concept, a natural feedback mechanism, and it is a behaviour reflected in many natural systems that exhibit boom and bust cycles.

People think this is the "The Pandemic", but at this moment we are still talking tens of millions when the earth has billions of people on it. The money being spent is to stop that tens of millions number turning into hundreds of millions. It's very very serious business that makes the economic rationalist argument to save a few pennies trivial, trivial in relation to the relative potential total risk. If that number goes up an order of magnitude you'll be talking about wars as well.

Unfortunately, that leaves the solution as a people problem, and the way society's controlled behaviour unravels at the first sign of a drop in numbers is pretty pathetic. It looks like humans will keep shooting them-self in the foot with a virus laden bullet.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 13, 2020, 08:50:07 am
Yes, it is an interesting concept, a natural feedback mechanism, and it is a behaviour reflected in many natural systems that exhibit boom and bust cycles.

Yep.
The nature of the beast is that it can transmit more easily in heavily populated areas too. So the places that will be biggest hit, are places where there are more people to hit.

We are seeing this in america, where new york copped it. Of course that is spreading 'better' in the US because an overly healthy dose of ignorance.

But what about places like India where the population is through the roof. Covid could sweep through there pretty quick.

Of course, this could just be stage 1 and a more deadly virus could be on its way to compound our issues.
SARS wasn't that long ago.....and this is an upgraded version of that. Who knows what version 3.0 is....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 13, 2020, 12:34:59 pm
But what about places like India where the population is through the roof. Covid could sweep through there pretty quick.

Of course, this could just be stage 1 and a more deadly virus could be on its way to compound our issues.
SARS wasn't that long ago.....and this is an upgraded version of that. Who knows what version 3.0 is....
Yes, I suppose the hope is the less mobile populations in countries like India, China and Africa contributes to braking the rate of spread. But who knows if a super-spreader gets into the dense population like Mumbai.

NZ, just 4 yesterday but 13 today, this is how it works and no amount of wishing or indifference is going to change that!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 13, 2020, 12:51:22 pm
Yes, I suppose the hope is the less mobile populations in countries like India, China and Africa contributes to braking the rate of spread. But who knows if a super-spreader gets into the dense population like Mumbai.

NZ, just 4 yesterday but 13 today, this is how it works and no amount of wishing or indifference is going to change that!
Rumour has it, it has arrived with freight.  Those people working in freight have contracted it and then spread it around the community.

COVID aint going anywhere, and todays lockdown will lead to future lock downs.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 13, 2020, 02:45:10 pm
Rumour has it, it has arrived with freight.  Those people working in freight have contracted it and then spread it around the community.

COVID aint going anywhere, and todays lockdown will lead to future lock downs.
There are some rather disturbing early reports coming out of some regional centres as well. It looks like COVID deniers or disenfranchised youth may have been sneaking out of the city to visit country locations for a muck up, and have taken COVID with them!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on August 13, 2020, 04:41:09 pm
Not just young people. We now have over 170 active cases in Greater Geelong, and I'm hearing local business owners telling me that the well-to-do are coming down in their range rovers for a coffee or lunch and bragging loudly how easy it is to get through the police checkpoints
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 13, 2020, 06:07:34 pm
Not just young people. We now have over 170 active cases in Greater Geelong, and I'm hearing local business owners telling me that the well-to-do are coming down in their range rovers for a coffee or lunch and bragging loudly how easy it is to get through the police checkpoints

One of our local Osteo's has said that he's only been stopped once in two weeks of two way daily travel from Pakenham to the Island for work. Reckons it's way too easy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on August 13, 2020, 09:18:53 pm
I find the hypocrisy of coalition members,  right wing shock jocks and media quite breathtaking.

When four or five people died during the the Pink Batts scheme implementation, all blame was sheeted home to the then Federal Labor Govt.  No mention was made of the shortcomings of employers of the unfortunate workers who received little or no training.

Now with the hotel Covid situation it is all the Victorian Government's fault. No blame is attached to the employers who have not lived up to the terms of the contracts they signed.  It appears that private industry cannot be trusted, or expected, to abide by the terms of signed contracts and there has to be direct government oversight of each and every contract.

 Contrast that with the situation some years ago when a large private trucking company contracted with Shell in NSW to carry fuel.  One of its trucks lost its brakes on a steep descent causing a fatal crash.  The authorities found many trucks with faults and the company received multiple fines.

Interestingly, no blame was attached to Shell by the above mentioned.  Applying the same standards to Shell as are expected of state and federal labor governments would have required Shell to have been responsible for the shortcomings of all private firms with which it had contracts.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 13, 2020, 09:55:12 pm
@Macca37‍  Noice!

(https://i.pinimg.com/600x315/7b/48/be/7b48be1d03394253600662d964bec374.jpg)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 15, 2020, 07:52:56 pm
https://youtu.be/pKQsIaSLz00
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 15, 2020, 07:54:18 pm
https://youtu.be/merT5RId3Us
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 15, 2020, 08:10:40 pm
https://youtu.be/pKQsIaSLz00

I heard a few days ago that all parking tickets given during stage 4 would not be requiring payment.

If true, why are they out there giving tickets at all?

Of course, i doubt anyone would consider them an essential worker.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 17, 2020, 04:52:05 pm
https://theconversation.com/creating-a-covid-19-vaccine-is-only-the-first-step-itll-take-years-to-manufacture-and-distribute-144352
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 17, 2020, 05:50:27 pm
https://theconversation.com/creating-a-covid-19-vaccine-is-only-the-first-step-itll-take-years-to-manufacture-and-distribute-144352

How depressing can one get.  The one thing that can unite nations, but still the greed
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 19, 2020, 07:03:34 pm
So some poor bugger in Northern Victoria has sheep on a property the other side of the border which he needs to get 42t of hay to. Rings Dept of Ag to see if he can cross the border with the food, answer is:
Transport the hay to Melb, Fly it to Syd (42t) for 14 days of quarantine, then transport it to the farm.
Has this joint gone totally farken mad?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 19, 2020, 07:10:02 pm
So some poor bugger in Northern Victoria has sheep on a property the other side of the border which he needs to get 42t of hay to. Rings Dept of Ag to see if he can cross the border with the food, answer is:
Transport the hay to Melb, Fly it to Syd (42t) for 14 days of quarantine, then transport it to the farm.
Has this joint gone totally farken mad?

yes.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 19, 2020, 07:11:49 pm
So some poor bugger in Northern Victoria has sheep on a property the other side of the border which he needs to get 42t of hay to. Rings Dept of Ag to see if he can cross the border with the food, answer is:
Transport the hay to Melb, Fly it to Syd (42t) for 14 days of quarantine, then transport it to the farm.
Has this joint gone totally farken mad?
All the hallmarks of a developing totalitarian regime.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 19, 2020, 07:16:11 pm
So some poor bugger in Northern Victoria has sheep on a property the other side of the border which he needs to get 42t of hay to. Rings Dept of Ag to see if he can cross the border with the food, answer is:
Transport the hay to Melb, Fly it to Syd (42t) for 14 days of quarantine, then transport it to the farm.
Has this joint gone totally farken mad?

What i heard was......"yes, you can".

Let the coppers prove otherwise
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 19, 2020, 07:29:43 pm
yes.
And when he said to the bimbo on the other end of the phone "This is some sort of joke is it?"
She replied: "Sir this is not a laughing matter"
Too his credit, he has since posted a video to facebook telling the story and his is laughing through it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 19, 2020, 07:43:09 pm
Scott Morrison will get it done after intervening on 3AW before the Mitchell interview about a vaccine even commenced.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 19, 2020, 07:43:41 pm
Scott Morrison will get it done after intervening on 3AW before the Mitchell interview about a vaccine even commenced.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 19, 2020, 08:05:44 pm
Listen to "Stuff You Should Know" podcast..........................for information about everything that has ever existed. (over 1200 episodes)

In this instance, they did one with Bill Gates a week ago. He talks about Vaccines for Covid 19.

https://player.fm/series/stuff-you-should-know-2151878/short-stuff-the-return-of-bill-gates

They also did one on Covid 19 a while back which goes into great detail about it.
Got episodes on Spanish Flu (100 years ago, same thing happened as now - we learned nothing!)

and plenty of other relevant stuff.
Do yourself a favour!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 20, 2020, 07:55:04 am
Listen to "Stuff You Should Know" podcast..........................for information about everything that has ever existed. (over 1200 episodes)

In this instance, they did one with Bill Gates a week ago. He talks about Vaccines for Covid 19.

https://player.fm/series/stuff-you-should-know-2151878/short-stuff-the-return-of-bill-gates

They also did one on Covid 19 a while back which goes into great detail about it.
Got episodes on Spanish Flu (100 years ago, same thing happened as now - we learned nothing!)
@kruddler  Great links.

Perhaps they did learn something, but current actions are just wilfully ignoring history to save a penny! ::)

Yes, the current situation is being politically managed almost identical to the Spanish Flu, it's truly bizarre. If you read up on the Spanish Flu history you can almost predict what the current politicians and bureaucrats will do next, even though some of those actions are monstrously wrong!

Political and social media spin about vaccines is very dangerous, it leaves an excuse for politicians to sit on their hands and do nothing, even though they are well aware of how long it takes to get a vaccine up and working. They been told this multiple times face to face, yet they broadcast disinformation, mostly I suspect to stop the social media causing people to lose hope and break the isolation rules. But I don't think misleading the public helps at all!

Last night Channel Dots had an interview with a virologist, he told them the Oxford vaccine Phase-3 trials haven't started yet, and that means at least 6 to 12 months before someone in the general public sees a dose, even if the process is shortcut. Even with the development on turbo the people in the trial have to be treated for at least 3 to 6 months before they know if the vaccine is safe and effective, then they will start making it in bulk. Not five minutes later on the same news broadcast Channel Dots reported that the vaccine could be here before Christmas, it's bullcrap and somebody should hold them to account!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: rocky on August 20, 2020, 08:16:15 am
Media needs to be held with the same "esteem" as politicians and bureaucrats
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 20, 2020, 08:26:21 am
Media needs to be held in the same "esteem" as politicians and bureaucrats

It is. On the untrustworthy scale the top 5 professions (not in order) are: politicians, used car salesmen, journalists, real estate agents and finance/banking folks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 20, 2020, 09:17:28 am
From what I can tell,  many so-called journalists are actually purveyors of propaganda or political activists.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 20, 2020, 09:27:38 am
@kruddler  Great links.

Perhaps they did learn something, but current actions are just wilfully ignoring history to save a penny! ::)

Yes, the current situation is being politically managed almost identical to the Spanish Flu, it's truly bizarre. If you read up on the Spanish Flu history you can almost predict what the current politicians and bureaucrats will do next, even though some of those actions are monstrously wrong!

Political and social media spin about vaccines is very dangerous, it leaves an excuse for politicians to sit on their hands and do nothing, even though they are well aware of how long it takes to get a vaccine up and working. They been told this multiple times face to face, yet they broadcast disinformation, mostly I suspect to stop the social media causing people to lose hope and break the isolation rules. But I don't think misleading the public helps at all!

Last night Channel Dots had an interview with a virologist, he told them the Oxford vaccine Phase-3 trials haven't started yet, and that means at least 6 to 12 months before someone in the general public sees a dose, even if the process is shortcut. Even with the development on turbo the people in the trial have to be treated for at least 3 to 6 months before they know if the vaccine is safe and effective, then they will start making it in bulk. Not five minutes later on the same news broadcast Channel Dots reported that the vaccine could be here before Christmas, it's bullcrap and somebody should hold them to account!

Have you heard about the current capability that we are looking to produce said vaccine?

To dose the population in large enough numbers, we would have to double our ability to create one and that timeline might work, provided we already know what it looks like, and stop producing vaccines for everything else (including measles, mumps, rubella and all the standard ones the kids get).

We are years away from a proper tested vaccine being administered to anyone!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 20, 2020, 11:00:44 am
Have you heard about the current capability that we are looking to produce said vaccine?

To dose the population in large enough numbers, we would have to double our ability to create one and that timeline might work, provided we already know what it looks like, and stop producing vaccines for everything else (including measles, mumps, rubella and all the standard ones the kids get).

We are years away from a proper tested vaccine being administered to anyone!
Its the proper testing bit thats the problem.....you listen to Dr Nick C last night and he gave me the impression that testing wasnt going to be a high priority when questioned and said everything is being fast tracked.
I dont want some untested vaccine in my system like Russia are going to give to their political prisoners and other second rate citizens. Are people going to be keen to have the first batch of any vaccine rushed through any countries medical system?
Saying all that I'd be buying some CSL shares....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 20, 2020, 11:06:38 am
I think there will be 'incentives' for people to get vaccinated as well as 'disincentives ' if they don't.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 20, 2020, 11:21:01 am
I think there will be 'incentives' for people to get vaccinated as well as 'disincentives ' if they don't.
There is rumour talk of Vaccine passports and travel restrictions even interstate, look forward to more protests and increased numbers of anti vaxers. Like I said I wouldnt be keen on the first batch of vaccine and would want to wait and see the side effects etc.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 20, 2020, 12:05:34 pm
There is rumour talk of Vaccine passports and travel restrictions even interstate, look forward to more protests and increased numbers of anti vaxers. Like I said I wouldnt be keen on the first batch of vaccine and would want to wait and see the side effects etc.

Likewise. Too often in the rush to be the first company to get the vaccine approval and the billions of dollars that come with it, corners can be cut. I'm not an anti-vaxxer, sheesh I was vaccined to the eye balls when I joined the Navy with TB, Yellow Fever and a couple of others - no problems though a few blokes did get crook, so I have absolutely no issue with the rock solid science in regard to the effectiveness of vaccines as a scientific principal / fact - the positive evidence is overwhelming... but a 'rushed through' vaccine? Nuh, FO. A 'rushed through to get the billions of clams' any medicine I always treat with healthy skepticism.

It's all about trust and a lot of community trust has gone out the window with all too many drugs/medicines that have wreaked havoc on the lives of too many people through being expedited to ensure the securing of billions of dollars - never, ever underestimate human greed. Once a C-19 has passed rigorous/legitimate/trusted testing I'll be one of the first with my sleeve rolled up.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 20, 2020, 12:42:47 pm
From what I can tell,  many so-called journalists are actually purveyors of propaganda or political activists.
 Many modern "journalists", using the term in it's broadest sense, are nothing more than social media bloggers in a power suit!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 20, 2020, 12:47:21 pm
Its the proper testing bit thats the problem.....you listen to Dr Nick C last night and he gave me the impression that testing wasnt going to be a high priority when questioned and said everything is being fast tracked.

I dont want some untested vaccine in my system like Russia are going to give to their political prisoners and other second rate citizens. Are people going to be keen to have the first batch of any vaccine rushed through any countries medical system?

Saying all that I'd be buying some CSL shares....
Thalidomide anyone?
(Please do not take offense, I'm not trivialising anything!)

That was probably the highest profile bad batch of untested pharmaceuticals ever produced, and all that was caused by a change in molecule chirality when it flipped from Righthand to Lefthand spiral during manufacture? That is why testing is so so important!

I understand what ScoMo was trying to do, these big foreign entities have the capability to make enough for Australia in just a few weeks. But he ignored the fact that Oxford's R&D is privately funded, and that no deal he can do will change that for Astra Zeneca and other big pharmaceutical companies! Trump offered to buy some of them out and they told him to shove it. ScoMo tried to bully them into a freebie because we do not have the capacity to make the stuff here fast enough!

The Politicians and Social Media Conspiracy Theorists will try to paint Astra Zeneca and others out as the bad guys, but they are spending big dollars placing a bet that they can solve the vaccine problem, and they deserve both the credit and a return on investment, just not a gouging return!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 20, 2020, 12:52:45 pm
Its the proper testing bit thats the problem.....you listen to Dr Nick C last night and he gave me the impression that testing wasnt going to be a high priority when questioned and said everything is being fast tracked.
I dont want some untested vaccine in my system like Russia are going to give to their political prisoners and other second rate citizens. Are people going to be keen to have the first batch of any vaccine rushed through any countries medical system?
Saying all that I'd be buying some CSL shares....
EB it will not happen here, the drug will to be tested as bullet proof for safety and efficacy, not so sure about or Russian friends though.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 20, 2020, 12:53:32 pm
Thalidomide anyone?
(Please do not take offense, I'm not trivialising anything!)

That was probably the highest profile bad batch of untested pharmaceuticals ever produced, and all that was caused by a change in molecule chirality when it flipped from Righthand to Lefthand spiral during manufacture? That is why testing is so so important!

I understand what ScoMo was trying to do, these big foreign entities have the capability to make enough for Australia in just a few weeks. But he ignored the fact that Oxford's R&D is privately funded, and that no deal he can do will change that for Astra Zeneca and other big pharmaceutical companies! Trump offered to buy some of them out and they told him to shove it. ScoMo tried to bully them into a freebie because we do not have the capacity to make the stuff here fast enough!
CSL can make it fast and how.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 20, 2020, 12:56:08 pm
CSL can make it fast and how.
We can't even get the glass vials to hold the stuff in, there is a global shortage as a couple of big European companies bought up all the critical sand and glass supplies when COVID broke. Vials are made from a special high purity form of Pyrex, and the sand comes from just one or two fresh water locations on earth.

Brewing a batch is the least of the issues!

Also, 25 million isn't likely to be the number, most vaccines take one dose with one or two boosters if they are lifelong immunisation. If not lifelong you need 25 million every COVID season or a couple of times per year! So just to get started it's probably 50 million, and then there are issues about how you store, transport and administer 50 million does, it's not a trivial problem. For example, after months and months or availability we've still only COVID tested a couple of million! (Actually it's about 4M now, after six months!)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 20, 2020, 01:14:41 pm
From what I can tell,  many so-called journalists are actually purveyors of propaganda or political activists.

So true, Fluffy One. There was a time when journalism held a deal of esteem... today's journalists, often, are nothing other than those who can get the most 'clicks'. Click bait and how magnetic that bait is, is the only skill required. Integrity and dignity can go and get stuffed, they don't get 'clicks' driven by sensationalism, rumour, exaggeration, embellishment and plain old bullsh1t.

However, if you dig hard enough you will find brilliant and deeply informative journalism in non-mainstream media, journalists motivated by integrity and TRUTH not clicks, not popularity. Some of our greatest literary heroes and heroines have been and are courageous investigative journalists... just gotta dig. And most would rather eat out of supermarket bins than write for News Corp....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 20, 2020, 01:34:39 pm
EB it will not happen here, the drug will to be tested as bullet proof for safety and efficacy, not so sure about or Russian friends though.
EB it will not happen here, the drug will to be tested as bullet proof for safety and efficacy, not so sure about or Russian friends though.
GTC, If there wasnt a whole economy and political landscape riding on it I would believe that but its more than just a health issue now and I'm not so sure the balance is 100% weighted to the safety of the masses.
When I was a kid the Indian Govt went on a sterilization program to keep the population in check, think they might even given away free transistor radios if you had yourself done, lot of people got ill after the procedures both men and women, whole thing was a failure and mess....if ScoMo starts offering Ipods with every jab then run...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 20, 2020, 01:43:29 pm
Get vaccinated and receive a free Bombers membership. Whatever it takes! 😇
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 20, 2020, 01:58:46 pm
We can't even get the glass vials to hold the stuff in, there is a global shortage as a couple of big European companies bought up all the critical sand and glass supplies when COVID broke. Vials are made from a special high purity form of Pyrex, and the sand comes from just one or two fresh water locations on earth.

Brewing a batch is the least of the issues!

Also, 25 million isn't likely to be the number, most vaccines take one dose with one or two boosters if they are lifelong immunisation. If not lifelong you need 25 million every COVID season or a couple of times per year! So just to get started it's probably 50 million, and then there are issues about how you store, transport and administer 50 million does, it's not a trivial problem. For example, after months and months or availability we've still only COVID tested a couple of million! (Actually it's about 4M now, after six months!)
LP, they can make it, they are ready to go (when its ready).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 20, 2020, 02:54:01 pm
Brewing a batch is the least of the issues!

To say nothing about the jabs administration and the back office paperwork. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 20, 2020, 04:55:21 pm
Get vaccinated and receive a free Bombers membership. Whatever it takes! 😇

Priceless.  :))  :)) 🤣 🤣
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 20, 2020, 05:06:06 pm
GTC, If there wasnt a whole economy and political landscape riding on it I would believe that but its more than just a health issue now and I'm not so sure the balance is 100% weighted to the safety of the masses.
When I was a kid the Indian Govt went on a sterilization program to keep the population in check, think they might even given away free transistor radios if you had yourself done, lot of people got ill after the procedures both men and women, whole thing was a failure and mess....if ScoMo starts offering Ipods with every jab then run...


The Spotted One will likely know more about this than I do but I know many medications, including psychopharmacology, have an an accepted 'error or adverse reaction' %, generally <5%. Recalling again my Naval vaccination experience (way back when ships were wood and men were steel... sorry, an old Navy gag) you'd get in a line of around a hundred blokes and just about always 1 or two blokes would get really crook and end up not being accepted.

The TB was a funny vaccine... first you had a test under the skin of your forearm and if it reacted with a watery blister (few days later) that was a good response so you were then swabbed with the vaccine on the upper arm which was then hit numerous times with a needle. Sure enough a big scabby sore came up and when it healed you had this pock mark on your upper arm about the size of a one cent coin... a la TB immune.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 20, 2020, 05:13:36 pm
LP, they can make it, they are ready to go (when its ready).
Who do you know that works for CSL?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 20, 2020, 05:35:32 pm
Who do you know that works for CSL?
A few.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 20, 2020, 06:59:44 pm
A few.
How high up are we talking? What level?

My mrs works there and so do a few friends we know.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 20, 2020, 07:47:04 pm
How high up are we talking? What level?

My mrs works there and so do a few friends we know.
Mainly project people and some people in manufacturing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 20, 2020, 08:39:49 pm
If CSL cant make enough numbers then Pfizer will supply the rest IMO, they have been in talks with the Aus govt after signing a big agreement with Trump and I'd expect production to be staggered anyway with vulnerable folk and health care workers 1st cab off the rank. With what we saw with Qantas today looking at 4b dollar loss next year and companies reporting badly the pressure is on to get a vaccine and a lot of good will be shown by all countries to get the western world in particular up and running.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 20, 2020, 08:57:41 pm
If CSL cant make enough numbers then Pfizer will supply the rest IMO, they have been in talks with the Aus govt after signing a big agreement with Trump and I'd expect production to be staggered anyway with vulnerable folk and health care workers 1st cab off the rank. With what we saw with Qantas today looking at 4b dollar loss next year and companies reporting badly the pressure is on to get a vaccine and a lot of good will be shown by all countries to get the western world in particular up and running.


You should listen to the link i posted earlier.

Everyone will join in together and make it together regardless of who comes up with the winning vaccine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 21, 2020, 10:12:16 am
You should listen to the link i posted earlier.

Everyone will join in together and make it together regardless of who comes up with the winning vaccine.

This spirit of co-operation -- so Aussie -- warms the cockles... now let's see it put into action and inspire many other corporates to see the bigger picture, the inspiring picture of 'the common good.'
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 21, 2020, 03:45:46 pm
This spirit of co-operation -- so Aussie -- warms the cockles... now let's see it put into action and inspire many other corporates to see the bigger picture, the inspiring picture of 'the common good.'

Thats actually a worldwide thing, not an aussie thing.

Seeing what this virus is doing to economies, companies know they are better off working together and killing this thing so they can go back to normal where they can ALL make more money.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 21, 2020, 05:12:52 pm
Thats actually a worldwide thing, not an aussie thing.

Seeing what this virus is doing to economies, companies know they are better off working together and killing this thing so they can go back to normal where they can ALL make more money.

Let me believe it was led by our example... ;)  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 23, 2020, 09:23:01 am
Thats actually a worldwide thing, not an aussie thing.

Seeing what this virus is doing to economies, companies know they are better off working together and killing this thing so they can go back to normal where they can ALL make more money.

Yep.  No point being the only profitable company if no one has money to pay you.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on August 24, 2020, 10:42:25 am
Got abused on my walk (take your mask off idiot... Wake up!!!  It's a government conspiracy to reduce the population by giving everyone legionnaires disease!) by a plandemic protestor wearing a box on her head... 

There's nuff nuffs out there people... Stay safe one and all.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 24, 2020, 01:45:57 pm
Got abused on my walk (take your mask off idiot... Wake up!!!  It's a government conspiracy to reduce the population by giving everyone legionnaires disease!) by a plandemic protestor wearing a box on her head... 

There's nuff nuffs out there people... Stay safe one and all.

Its amazing.

Irrespective of where you sit on this COVID pandemic, the decision to be abusive is one made by an individual, and IMHO, is a bigger blight on our society than anything else anyone can point to.

Wear it or dont wear it, I dont agree with calling out anyone irrespective of where you sit with this decision making.

We should be practising kindness to each other. 

Not this abusive crap of plandemic, or wear a mask if not wearing one.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 24, 2020, 04:58:40 pm
Interesting correlations starting to appear between acute SARS-CoV-2 infections and vitamin D deficiencies, in particular low levels of exposure to daily sunlight.

It's early days, but there are patterns that could suggest this has more to it than just a lucky coincidence. For example, homeless people seem far more likely to get an asymptomatic infection than the average person, and elderly in nursing homes or prisoners are far more likely to get severe/acute symptoms.

While homeless often have low vitamin D levels, they are typically exposed to far more sunlight per day that the average person and they make vitamin D as well as any other person, but it is a conjecture they lose it quite quickly due to other dietary deficiencies.

There is also some correlation related to dark skinned people being more susceptible to SARS-CoV-2, and it turns out they make far less vitamin D and as much as 80% of that segment of the population can be vitamin D deficient.

Sort of makes sense, but now somebody has to prove it.

Regardless, if I was in a high risk career, health, emergency services, I'd be looking to up my vitamin D by getting some extra sunlight on my face and if possible a small supplementary quantity. However, there is some risk with high doses, just like anything we can consume out of balance with our requirements. So the safe solution seems to be work hard at getting some more sunlight and let mother nature do the rest! Also ahead of using any supplements fresh pink salmon is your go to, with 1/2 your daily requirement in a serve it's got twice as much as the next best option which is tuna, then sardines and a bunch of other fishy delights, then milk, egg yokes, some cheese and meats.

Apparently any potential couch potato vegans and vegetarians are in big trouble, they are often deficient as most of their food and fruit doesn't have anywhere near enough vitamin D if they are weld indoors! So let your moody teenage daughter know!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 24, 2020, 05:55:48 pm
Interesting correlations starting to appear between acute SARS-CoV-2 infections and vitamin D deficiencies, in particular low levels of exposure to daily sunlight.

It's early days, but there are patterns that could suggest this has more to it than just a lucky coincidence. For example, homeless people seem far more likely to get an asymptomatic infection than the average person, and elderly in nursing homes or prisoners are far more likely to get severe/acute symptoms.

While homeless often have low vitamin D levels, they are typically exposed to far more sunlight per day that the average person and they make vitamin D as well as any other person, but it is a conjecture they lose it quite quickly due to other dietary deficiencies.

There is also some correlation related to dark skinned people being more susceptible to SARS-CoV-2, and it turns out they make far less vitamin D and as much as 80% of that segment of the population can be vitamin D deficient.

Sort of makes sense, but now somebody has to prove it.

Regardless, if I was in a high risk career, health, emergency services, I'd be looking to up my vitamin D by getting some extra sunlight on my face and if possible a small supplementary quantity. However, there is some risk with high doses, just like anything we can consume out of balance with our requirements. So the safe solution seems to be work hard at getting some more sunlight and let mother nature do the rest! Also ahead of using any supplements fresh pink salmon is your go to, with 1/2 your daily requirement in a serve it's got twice as much as the next best option which is tuna, then sardines and a bunch of other fishy delights, then milk, egg yokes, some cheese and meats.

Apparently any potential couch potato vegans and vegetarians are in big trouble, they are often deficient as most of their food and fruit doesn't have anywhere near enough vitamin D if they are weld indoors! So let your moody teenage daughter know!
Buy some Ostelin Vit D....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 24, 2020, 09:08:47 pm
If that's the case we need the lockdowns to end pronto.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 24, 2020, 11:16:33 pm
If that's the case we need the lockdowns to end pronto.
 The lock downs is fine, people do not need to go further than outside their front door to get all the sun they need!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 25, 2020, 12:05:51 am
The lock downs is fine, people do not need to go further than outside their front door to get all the sun they need!
No Vit D in the winter, you need the supplements..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 25, 2020, 07:35:32 am
No Vit D in the winter, you need the supplements..
I need to take it for other reasons so at least I get that side benefit.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 25, 2020, 07:47:34 am
No Vit D in the winter, you need the supplements..
 And yet home solar panels keep working! :D

(https://www.lgenergy.com.au/uploads/media_images/32b0b9178320e74e5f141dff0998c7a2628adc05.jpeg)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 25, 2020, 10:19:22 am
And yet home solar panels keep working! :D

(https://www.lgenergy.com.au/uploads/media_images/32b0b9178320e74e5f141dff0998c7a2628adc05.jpeg)

Solar panels dont wear three layers of clothing and a beanie to go outside.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 25, 2020, 11:43:04 am
Solar panels dont wear three layers of clothing and a beanie to go outside.
That is a matter for a person, not a demonstration of new strange physics during winter!

You can sit inside in the warm in a northerly aspect and get 30 ~ 60 minutes of midday sun, it still works through glass.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 25, 2020, 11:51:15 am
That is a matter for a person, not a demonstration of new strange physics during winter!

You can sit inside in the warm in a northerly aspect and get 30 ~ 60 minutes of midday sun, it still works through glass.

Its funny, how wrong we can be, and right we can be all at the same time.

https://www.solar-facts-and-advice.com/vitamin-D-from-the-sun.html

Quote
2)    UVB radiation:   Your skin requires UVB radiation to produce vitamin D.   Since glass blocks UVB – this means you need to be outdoors in the sun.  As we discussed in our section on irradiance, UVB is produced by the sun; and in our section on insolation, the amount of the sun's radiation varies with latitude, altitude  (e.g. in Denver you need 20% less time in the sun because of the altitude), weather conditions, time of day, time of year, etc.

While it is generally true that you can produce solar energy – as long as there is visible sunlight, the research on producing vitamin D from the sun seems to suggest that there is a threshold level of UVB your skin requires in order to produce Vitamin D. 

In other words – depending on where you live - the number of days and hours where there is sufficient UVB radiation your sun can use to produce Vitamin D will vary.   So while it might take you 15 minutes in the peak (10:00 AM  to 2:00 PM) time in the summer to produce the vitamin D you need – it could take much longer than that in the spring and fall  (substantially more if the weather is still chilly and you are wearing more clothing), and may not be possible at all in the winter.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 25, 2020, 12:12:07 pm
@ Thry

I spent much of my early life in a cold climate devoid of too much sunshine for months at a time. It proved to be  real problem for the darker skinned people who suffered from Rickets (caused by Vit D deficiency) unless they took a supplement.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 25, 2020, 12:21:58 pm
It's often propagated by the health industry that you need supplements, unless you have some medical condition that affects your production of vitamin-D you do not. Females are about 10x more likely than men to need supplements as they age due to biological concerns.

UV radiation is a continuous spectrum, that is divided in UVA, UVB and UVC to simplify discussions about it's effects on biology.

In reality all UV is attenuated by glass and other transparent surfaces, but it's not a cut-off filter effect. It is a curve like the graph below with UVB between 285 and 315nm, UVB is only a small percentage of solar UV radiation.

Note that graph is based on 10mm glass, most homes or buildings only have 3mm or 4mm glass!

(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-83e269ef061469716724f9f387987a02)

Car windscreens and, greenhouse glass some of which contain reflective films can greatly alter the effect. But all it does is change how much time you need to spend in the sunlit window, being behind simple glass does not stop it the production of vitamin D it just slows the rate of production!

Plus, be careful reading websites, the data might be based on and targeted for people living in the Arctic circle, but then they are pale white in general for a reason, it is not an accident many are translucent blond! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 26, 2020, 01:34:13 pm
Frankston hospital in real trouble with 700 staff being tested for Covid and patients being transferred out, fair chance to close IMO as they dont have the staff left to handle the workload unless they get other hospital or interstate help.
Three wards closed a week a go but that never made the news and a lot of the staff came down sick but again they didnt want
that making the news either .....staff are being tested even if not sick.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 26, 2020, 02:25:52 pm
I heard they moved a bunch of SARS-CoV-2 positive patients out of northern suburbs aged care into Frankston Hospital a few weeks back, I bet they regret that now!

FWIW, I also heard a rumor they did the same over at Peninsula Private Hospital, that would be the two major hospitals in the area put at risk by the transfer of patients out of the northern suburbs!

There are a bunch of Emergency Services workers down that way who are ropeable about how it was handled!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 26, 2020, 03:20:41 pm
I'm not sure what's worse.  What's revealed or what's not being told.  The secrecy is despicable, either from this government or the idiot media (or both) in not pursuing the truth.  One thing is certain ... aged care will change enormously from this point forward
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 26, 2020, 03:22:29 pm
I heard they moved a bunch of SARS-CoV-2 positive patients out of northern suburbs aged care into Frankston Hospital a few weeks back, I bet they regret that now!

FWIW, I also heard a rumor they did the same over at Peninsula Private Hospital, that would be the two major hospitals in the area put at risk by the transfer of patients out of the northern suburbs!

There are a bunch of Emergency Services workers down that way who are ropeable about how it was handled!
Its a badly managed hospital at the best of times and like Sunshine hospital in the West its under resourced and under pressure just with day to day business, both areas need another Public Hospital built and staffed properly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 26, 2020, 03:43:46 pm
Its a badly managed hospital at the best of times and like Sunshine hospital in the West its under resourced and under pressure just with day to day business, both areas need another Public Hospital built and staffed properly.
 Maybe that is the political motivation behind the current series of events, the State will put it on the Feds as public health is primarily a Fed concern?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 26, 2020, 04:05:20 pm
Maybe that is the political motivation behind the current series of events, the State will put it on the Feds as public health is primarily a Fed concern?
Dont think Dan the man will get much from Scomo and crew, they really laid into him in Parliament yesterday blaming him'for Victoria's problems and the Libs wont ever fund heartland Labor area's.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 26, 2020, 05:07:59 pm
Dont think Dan the man will get much from Scomo and crew, they really laid into him in Parliament yesterday blaming him'for Victoria's problems and the Libs wont ever fund heartland Labor area's.

Well if, and its a big IF, it comes out for certain that Dan and co flatly rejected Federal assistance and copying the other states model with the Hotel Quarantine, he's /they're farked.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 26, 2020, 05:24:15 pm
Dont think Dan the man will get much from Scomo and crew, they really laid into him in Parliament yesterday blaming him'for Victoria's problems and the Libs wont ever fund heartland Labor area's.


Yep, ScoMo and Dan had gotten along beautifully until the Aged Care homes stuff and now the fingers are a pointin'. Those of us in everyday land have known for yonks that decent and proper aged care is hard to find... too many profiteers & 'money for jam' types investing and running the places. My old man has been in BaptCare for about 3 years now and even though he's a pr1ck we used to -- until C-19 -- visit him regularly (even though he's a whingeing manipulative pr1ck, he's still blood). And the meals the folks were given were so cheap and basic it was embarrassing, along with what seemed to be 'bargain basement' staff. Some were so ill-suited to aged care it was embarrassing... just a job, and barely had a handle on English - sorry if that seems racist, just stating a fact. On the upside, his room was always very clean, they let him have his whiskey every day and I always get a call if anything is wrong with him. The older woman who is the boss where my old man is runs a tight ship and my comms with her have always be honest, up front and real. I'm not surprised they've had no C-19 cases/deaths.

My issues with aged care and how it is run, is with the meals, things for the older cats to do during the day and the profiteering bastards who get involved in this sector - glad there is a Royal Commission into the entire business.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 26, 2020, 05:47:59 pm
Yep, ScoMo and Dan had gotten along beautifully until the Aged Care homes stuff and now the fingers are a pointin'. Those of us in everyday land have known for yonks that decent and proper aged care is hard to find... too many profiteers & 'money for jam' types investing and running the places. My old man has been in BaptCare for about 3 years now and even though he's a pr1ck we used to -- until C-19 -- visit him regularly (even though he's a whingeing manipulative pr1ck, he's still blood). And the meals the folks were given were so cheap and basic it was embarrassing, along with what seemed to be 'bargain basement' staff. Some were so ill-suited to aged care it was embarrassing... just a job, and barely had a handle on English - sorry if that seems racist, just stating a fact. On the upside, his room was always very clean, they let him have his whiskey every day and I always get a call if anything is wrong with him. The older woman who is the boss where my old man is runs a tight ship and my comms with her have always be honest, up front and real. I'm not surprised they've had no C-19 cases/deaths.

My issues with aged care and how it is run, is with the meals, things for the older cats to do during the day and the profiteering bastards who get involved in this sector - glad there is a Royal Commission into the entire business.
This is the best country in the world by a mile, but it farken sucks to get old in this joint.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 26, 2020, 09:46:33 pm
Well if, and its a big IF, it comes out for certain that Dan and co flatly rejected Federal assistance and copying the other states model with the Hotel Quarantine, he's /they're farked.

There's 2 things that the media aren't speaking about which tells you its not the strategy that was the issue and that means Andrews will be fine.

1.  At the time 90% of return travellers were coming through Melbourne.   What that means is that the other states strategy's were handling much smaller numbers which makes it much easier to manage.

2.  Out of all the hotels in Melbourne used, we only have two that are in the firing line.  I know for a fact crown was housing return travellers and they have not been mentioned or implicated at all.

Im no apologist.  The ADF might have been a better strategy but that's a hindsight discussion, and it's not really relevant considering the ridges and Stamford are the only hotels mentioned.

I know of people who were in the quest South bank too.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 26, 2020, 09:53:42 pm
I heard they moved a bunch of SARS-CoV-2 positive patients out of northern suburbs aged care into Frankston Hospital a few weeks back, I bet they regret that now!

FWIW, I also heard a rumor they did the same over at Peninsula Private Hospital, that would be the two major hospitals in the area put at risk by the transfer of patients out of the northern suburbs!

There are a bunch of Emergency Services workers down that way who are ropeable about how it was handled!

There has been a big push to house covid positive aged care residents in the hospitals.

I can tell you all, that there are plenty of outbreaks that are not public.

When you are hearing about it its only because its becoming public knowledge and it needs to be addressed.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 26, 2020, 09:57:10 pm
There's 2 things that the media aren't speaking about which tells you its not the strategy that was the issue and that means Andrews will be fine.

1.  At the time 90% of return travellers were coming through Melbourne.   What that means is that the other states strategy's were handling much smaller numbers which makes it much easier to manage.

2.  Out of all the hotels in Melbourne used, we only have two that are in the firing line.  I know for a fact crown was housing return travellers and they have not been mentioned or implicated at all.

Im no apologist.  The ADF might have been a better strategy but that's a hindsight discussion, and it's not really relevant considering the ridges and Stamford are the only hotels mentioned.

I know of people who were in the quest South bank too.


Two words, Ruby Princess
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 27, 2020, 09:42:00 am
There's 2 things that the media aren't speaking about which tells you its not the strategy that was the issue and that means Andrews will be fine.

1.  At the time 90% of return travellers were coming through Melbourne.   What that means is that the other states strategy's were handling much smaller numbers which makes it much easier to manage.

2.  Out of all the hotels in Melbourne used, we only have two that are in the firing line.  I know for a fact crown was housing return travellers and they have not been mentioned or implicated at all.

Im no apologist.  The ADF might have been a better strategy but that's a hindsight discussion, and it's not really relevant considering the ridges and Stamford are the only hotels mentioned.

I know of people who were in the quest South bank too.



A very fair summary. Seems the security business will be in for a shake-up and not before time. On the surface of it you'd think that by employing these firms they'd have people who knew what they were doing - apparently not all. A lot of important lessons have be learnt from that episode.

The serious and inexcusable cracks in aged care have also been revealed. Another important lesson learnt at very high cost for many families. And the Federal Govt can duck and weave all they like but everyone knows this was their responsibility -- which doesn't remove State Govts from responsibility, either -- and they've (Feds) been negligent in not REALLY KNOWING what was going on, on their watch. Negligent govts and profiteers... what a poor pair to entrust the wellbeing of our aged to.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 27, 2020, 10:35:23 am
A very fair summary. Seems the security business will be in for a shake-up and not before time. On the surface of it you'd think that by employing these firms they'd have people who knew what they were doing - apparently not all. A lot of important lessons have be learnt from that episode.

The serious and inexcusable cracks in aged care have also been revealed. Another important lesson learnt at very high cost for many families. And the Federal Govt can duck and weave all they like but everyone knows this was their responsibility -- which doesn't remove State Govts from responsibility, either -- and they've (Feds) been negligent in not REALLY KNOWING what was going on, on their watch. Negligent govts and profiteers... what a poor pair to entrust the wellbeing of our aged to.

I would have thought that now isn't the time to go doing an investigation into what went wrong.

Identify the shortfalls.  Fix them, and then worry about who stuffed up once there is no pandemic to worry about.

This is the sort of thing that fills the public with no confidence in government.  On the one hand, we have the vast majority of people being told to stay home, stay safe, dont mingle, etc, and then we have stuff ups like cancelling farmers markets, and retraction within 24 hours, 3-4 weeks during a lockdown, and then we have a royal commission into returned travellers, and aged care, when there are literally people dieing.

The government have a lot to answer for, and one of things they keep getting wrong, is creating policy on the run for things that need to fill the public with confidence that they are able to handle things effectively.

Should our state of emergency be extended?  Probably.  If not it will be reimposed as quickly as it is able to.

Should our lockdowns continue.  No.  I think we have enough data to show that the damage to the economy and the general publics health is not that great (although that could change with a higher infection rate) and we should be throwing the same amount of resources into our health care networks and aged care networks to appropriately deal with the threat at hand.

Note, I dont advocate full normality.  This stage 4 stuff was an extreme measure required to be enacted because our virus spread was well and truly out of control.  Now that we are arresting it, its time to manage this PROPERLY.  Spend the resources protecting the vulnerable.



Close that loophole, and actually shut it.  Dont just complain publically about our plight.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 27, 2020, 11:06:35 am
I would have thought that now isn't the time to go doing an investigation into what went wrong.

Identify the shortfalls.  Fix them, and then worry about who stuffed up once there is no pandemic to worry about.

This is the sort of thing that fills the public with no confidence in government.  On the one hand, we have the vast majority of people being told to stay home, stay safe, dont mingle, etc, and then we have stuff ups like cancelling farmers markets, and retraction within 24 hours, 3-4 weeks during a lockdown, and then we have a royal commission into returned travellers, and aged care, when there are literally people dieing.

The government have a lot to answer for, and one of things they keep getting wrong, is creating policy on the run for things that need to fill the public with confidence that they are able to handle things effectively.

Should our state of emergency be extended?  Probably.  If not it will be reimposed as quickly as it is able to.

Should our lockdowns continue.  No.  I think we have enough data to show that the damage to the economy and the general publics health is not that great (although that could change with a higher infection rate) and we should be throwing the same amount of resources into our health care networks and aged care networks to appropriately deal with the threat at hand.

Note, I dont advocate full normality.  This stage 4 stuff was an extreme measure required to be enacted because our virus spread was well and truly out of control.  Now that we are arresting it, its time to manage this PROPERLY.  Spend the resources protecting the vulnerable.



Close that loophole, and actually shut it.  Dont just complain publically about our plight.




Wrong in one critical aspect Thry. And I'll try and post the chart (a jpg)! Any hints?

Saying the numbers were 'out of control' is simply emotional rhetoric.

The actual (and modelled) effective reproduction rate (DHHS data) had already peaked and was heading south before even Stage 3 restrictions were reintroduced.

And, in fact, that number was comfortably below the 'magic' 1.0 mark (around 27 July) WELL BEFORE Stage 4 restrictions. Let alone allowing any lag time for 'effect'.

Fact. And essentially confirmed by third party modelling.

So, the only reason for doing it was political.

As to the efficacy of lockdowns and other NPIs - the latest study certainly makes one's eyebrows rise!

https://www.aier.org/article/lockdowns-and-mask-mandates-do-not-lead-to-reduced-covid-transmission-rates-or-deaths-new-study-suggests/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 27, 2020, 11:51:59 am
The mass state of confusion with changing policy on the run is one reason I'd never allow Andrews that level of control.  Or anyone else.  Enough of the stuff ups
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 27, 2020, 12:38:31 pm

Wrong in one critical aspect Thry. And I'll try and post the chart (a jpg)! Any hints?

Saying the numbers were 'out of control' is simply emotional rhetoric.

The actual (and modelled) effective reproduction rate (DHHS data) had already peaked and was heading south before even Stage 3 restrictions were reintroduced.

And, in fact, that number was comfortably below the 'magic' 1.0 mark (around 27 July) WELL BEFORE Stage 4 restrictions. Let alone allowing any lag time for 'effect'.

Fact. And essentially confirmed by third party modelling.

So, the only reason for doing it was political.

As to the efficacy of lockdowns and other NPIs - the latest study certainly makes one's eyebrows rise!

https://www.aier.org/article/lockdowns-and-mask-mandates-do-not-lead-to-reduced-covid-transmission-rates-or-deaths-new-study-suggests/

No offense, FB77, but the AIER is not as unbiased or as objective as it proports... just another Libertarian organisation and very guilty of cherry picking data to fit/promote its agendas and advocacies. I believe that sticking to data and opinion from medical experts remains the path to take.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 27, 2020, 12:44:09 pm
I would have thought that now isn't the time to go doing an investigation into what went wrong.

Identify the shortfalls.  Fix them, and then worry about who stuffed up once there is no pandemic to worry about.


I actually believe we can do both - and should. The information garnered during an investigation can have a huge and beneficial impact on what is being done at present. If we got another outbreak in a particular location, due to learning about certain security organisations through investigations, we would choose the location to be 'guarded' by those better qualified... and so on.

My question remains from weeks ago... why didn't Dan leap on the 2nd outbreak well before he did, like he did on the 1st outbreak?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 27, 2020, 12:49:25 pm
No offense, FB77, but the AIER is not as unbiased or as objective as it proports... just another Libertarian organisation and very guilty of cherry picking data to fit/promote its agendas and advocacies. I believe that sticking to data and opinion from medical experts remains the path to take.

All good, I'm well aware of the heritage of AIER Baggers!

If you have some scientific evidence that supports lockdowns etc, feel free.

You want more on the anti lock down side?

https://t.co/vSPLOWSeKO?amp=1

ps who can tell me how to upload an image?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Wet Willie on August 27, 2020, 12:51:30 pm
It's a shame that after the virus is sorted, we can't turn our attention to the ICE industry that causes daily damage to our society...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 27, 2020, 01:23:13 pm
All good, I'm well aware of the heritage of AIER Baggers!

If you have some scientific evidence that supports lockdowns etc, feel free.

You want more on the anti lock down side?

https://t.co/vSPLOWSeKO?amp=1

ps who can tell me how to upload an image?

Go to preview mode and you can drag  an image in the panel below where you type
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 27, 2020, 01:24:41 pm
A picture tells 1000 words ()if the upload has worked!)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 27, 2020, 01:34:10 pm
A picture tells 1000 words ()if the upload has worked!)
So does that say that the daily cases spike lags the Reff spike by a month or so? Its weird because the first Reff spike didnt correlate to daily cases spikes but I guess testing wasnt occuring so it hard to deduce what that says. Daily tests would be good overlayed on that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 27, 2020, 01:49:12 pm
So does that say that the daily cases spike lags the Reff spike by a month or so? Its weird because the first Reff spike didnt correlate to daily cases spikes but I guess testing wasnt occuring so it hard to deduce what that says. Daily tests would be good overlayed on that.
That's the right train of thought, yes there is a lag and it's also function of testing because when you test someone you do not really know what stage of infection or contagiousness that they are at.

You will recall that the government recalled a bunch of dodgy ineffective tests around May June and banned them from import, which saw a shortage of tests kits which was rectified by the end of June early July.

Also, the Re effective reproduction rate is a measure of the rate of infection with respect to transmission, immunity, vaccination and all other mitigation measures like masks, quarantine and isolation.

The main raw measure is R0 which is the basic infection rate, that has barely changed in many months now. Readers have to be careful about it's reporting because in reality the virus has mutated and there are now many strains with varying levels of transmission, averages can be from a wide spread of contagious levels.

Another word of warning about language, all contagious diseases are infectious, but not all infectious diseases are contagious. Technically this difference is often manipulated by some segments of social media and political spectrum to make things look how they want them to look.

It's typical for the R0 to drop through the coarse of an infection, and it can mean very little about how contagious something is and more about the number of tests and other factors like natural immunity levels which are always higher than zero!

The real concern in the linked DHHS model would be the rising green bars, and why that was happening while Re dropped!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 27, 2020, 01:53:52 pm
It's typical for the R0 to drop through the coarse of an infection, and it can mean very little about how contagious something is and more about the number of tests.

Isn't that a factor of herd immunity?

Less people who can get it means less people will get it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 27, 2020, 02:00:35 pm
Isn't that a factor of herd immunity?

Less people who can get it means less people will get it.
R0 is the raw number with respect to natural immunity. If you put a hundred thousand people who had never been exposed to the virus into The G and dusted them with virus. It generally stabilises at some value like Influenza. It often starts high, presumably because there are a large number of tests for small number of infected.

Re would take into account herd immunity, if you put a hundred thousand into The G some of which had been exposed and developed an immune response, and dusted them again! It diminishes as more immunity is found in the community and more mitigation steps are taken.

If a 100% effective vaccine is invented, Re would go to zero, but R0 would stay some value because it's primarily a measure of transmission. A vaccine doesn't stop you being infected by a virus, it stops the virus you get infected with from doing you too much harm by priming the body's own defence system. Think of Re as the number we work towards for any given R0.

On websites and media there is lots of cross pollination between R0 and other figures like Re, some of it by accident some of it not! I'm sure I'm even guilty myself of generalising to the term R0, but once you see Re then you need to become more careful about the discussion because it is becoming specific to a frame of reference.

There was a good program on ABC national that put all this into lay terms a couple of months back. Much better at explaining it than myself, if I find it I'll post a link. When I sit listening to colleagues discuss this, as it has become the lunchtime topic of rigor, the jargon from the technical specialists is almost not navigable but they use it for brevity.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 27, 2020, 03:00:25 pm
It's pretty clear Dopey and his gang dropped the ball on testing and tracing for a time....no surprises there.

Now that our resident Norman Swan has gone some way to explaining the meaning of Ro and the effective rate, Re, what does it all mean?

First, indeed, Re is a subset of the Ro number - taking into account the level of susceptibility in the population - and, as we've seen in the States, we aren't necessarily one homogeneous population. Which also goes a large way to offering an explanation as to why herd immunity appears to be reached at much lower population infection rates than originally estimated.

But back on point. What is clear is that, by definition, the effective rate, Re, is a leading indicator of where the bug is going - getting it under 1.0 is the goal. If the rate of secondary infection is less than 1 to 1, it must peter out.

What stupefies me is that when they chose to reimpose Stage 3 restrictions over Melbourne, the Re had been trending consistently south toward zero (so why do it?) and there is NOTHING (as evidenced by the slope ie the rate of change of the Re line) to suggest the NPI measures (lock down, masks etc.) hastened speed of decline.

And even to be exceedingly generous, let's ignore the Stage 3 stuff.

The actual Re (and the modelled Re too) fell below 1.0 well over a week before our Chairman went for these INSANE Stage 4 measures!

Justification?

None.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 27, 2020, 03:08:38 pm
A Virologist on the ABC last night suggested that the CoVid19 virus in structure is weakening to what it was back at the start.
Growths rate in the lab is still the same but it isnt attacking good cells the way it was and that is a good chance it will become weaker and turn on itself and thats how the virus will be eradicated maybe even before a decent vaccine is available.
There are reports of re-infection in people even months later so the antibodies either dont remain or their are new/changed strains which isnt going to make finding a vaccine any easier.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 27, 2020, 03:13:59 pm
@Fly....
The reason for going to stage 4 was not because it was running away, but because the decline was going too slowly that it would extend stage 3 for longer than required.

Stage 4 was planned so that stage 3 would be required for less time than had stage 4 not been implemented at all.

So that leads us to the other question? Why no decline since masks and stage 4??

At a guess....its still too soon to tell.
At another guess....stage 4 was not a huge step up compated from stage 2 -> stage 3.
And a final guess.....people simply are not buying into it anymore. The backlash over this has been far in excess to anything i predicted. The anti-maskers, anti-government, COVID conspirators etc are growing in numbers and its ruining it for everyone.

So....how much of this is Dans fault? 
SFA
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 27, 2020, 03:15:16 pm
@LP....
So why is it typical for R0 to drop? Surely its a constant?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 27, 2020, 03:21:43 pm
A Virologist on the ABC last night suggested that the CoVid19 virus in structure is weakening to what it was back at the start.
Growths rate in the lab is still the same but it isnt attacking good cells the way it was and that is a good chance it will become weaker and turn on itself and thats how the virus will be eradicated maybe even before a decent vaccine is available.
There are reports of re-infection in people even months later so the antibodies either dont remain or their are new/changed strains which isnt going to make finding a vaccine any easier.


Yes EB, one guy in HK who tested positive twice to two different strains, but 2nd time around he was entirely asymptomatic! So, isn't that what matters? The immune system has done what it should.

Recent article on asymptomatic transmission - it's been way over played and flies in the face of all known history of virus transmissability. https://www.resmedjournal.com/article/S0954-6111(20)30166-9/fulltext

You do realise the false positive rate for this current PCR test used here is circa 2.5%, likely higher?

2.5% of 30,000 tests (which was about our daily maximum testing numbers)?

Highest daily number of cases in the recent outbreak?  ;)  ;)


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 27, 2020, 03:23:39 pm

Wrong in one critical aspect Thry. And I'll try and post the chart (a jpg)! Any hints?

Saying the numbers were 'out of control' is simply emotional rhetoric.

The actual (and modelled) effective reproduction rate (DHHS data) had already peaked and was heading south before even Stage 3 restrictions were reintroduced.

And, in fact, that number was comfortably below the 'magic' 1.0 mark (around 27 July) WELL BEFORE Stage 4 restrictions. Let alone allowing any lag time for 'effect'.

Fact. And essentially confirmed by third party modelling.

So, the only reason for doing it was political.

As to the efficacy of lockdowns and other NPIs - the latest study certainly makes one's eyebrows rise!

https://www.aier.org/article/lockdowns-and-mask-mandates-do-not-lead-to-reduced-covid-transmission-rates-or-deaths-new-study-suggests/

With all due respect FB, nothing you have stated here actually discusses any point I was making so you are disagreeing with what point that I have stated?

FWIW, I dont speak from public numbers either.  I speak from my anecdotal experience of what I am seeing at the health network I work at.

I.e.  6 weeks ago, they were actually reverting back to normal at the health network I work at.  Our covid cases being admitted were low, and elective surgery was back on the table.  So much so, that the dedicated covid ward had been halved. 

Meanwhile, It was only last week, that one of our hospitals went live with a "clean and dirty" zone in their emergency department (an indictment on whoever is running the show there) but I think they were funnelling a lot of patients elsewhere until the numbers jumped in presentations at all sites.

The data at state, national, international level can paint whatever picture people want it to, but I want to point something out.

Most of the time, statistics are a lagging indicator.

What our management and Chief Medical Officer has been stating, is that the jump in numbers of positive cases don't lead to an increase of hospitalisation with anything but a 10 day lag time, and everyone started feeling very uncomfortable the minute we got to 100 positive cases per day and the discomfort wasnt seen in the network I work at for at least another fortnight.

Even now, there is a greater number of COVID positive patients at our hospital than there was even 1 month ago.  Why else do you think we are hearing about Peninsula health having 600 staff on furlough now?

The biggest problem?

We are a population of 5 million people (roughly across the city).  Our current total of positive cases is roughly 18714.  Our current Active cases is at 3300 odd.  Our deaths are sitting at 485, and our hospitals are under considerable strain with respect to their staffing already.  We have a very small sample number of what this virus can and cannot do, and I am not even speaking about that.

We can go with the open slather approach, let COVID run rampant, have most of our hospitals unable to be staffed, and then have stroke patients, dialysis patients, cancer patients, etc go into hospital for a "standard" health problem, and then have complications from their admission by contracting Covid whilst they are in there.

Its a very short sighted based on public viewpoint, to turn around and quote numbers, without seeing how this can quickly run away from us, and that is entirely the point of masks and lockdowns.  Its not necessarily there to stop the spread.  They actually prevent the behaviour that will cause the spread.  I.e. masks are uncomfortable, so less people put themselves in situations where they must wear one, therefore the mask works because it deters a behaviour that would otherwise cause people to spread the virus around.

Even our testing numbers dont tell a story.  We have incidents of people being tested 4 times, walking away happy as larry after a few weeks developing symptoms and coming back with a positive result shocked.  The reality?  They got sick somewhere after their last test.  Therefore take the millions of tests performed, quarter the number, and you are closer to the number of people actually tested to achieve a positive result.

Do the stats you quote show any of the above data?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 27, 2020, 03:29:32 pm
@Fly....
The reason for going to stage 4 was not because it was running away, but because the decline was going too slowly that it would extend stage 3 for longer than required.

Stage 4 was planned so that stage 3 would be required for less time than had stage 4 not been implemented at all.

So that leads us to the other question? Why no decline since masks and stage 4??

At a guess....its still too soon to tell.
At another guess....stage 4 was not a huge step up compated from stage 2 -> stage 3.
And a final guess.....people simply are not buying into it anymore. The backlash over this has been far in excess to anything i predicted. The anti-maskers, anti-government, COVID conspirators etc are growing in numbers and its ruining it for everyone.

So....how much of this is Dans fault? 
SFA

But again, the gradient did not increase post Stage 3 lock down, even after allowing a lag.

And before masks.

Dan's fault? 100%.

Let's be frank, if the government was a corporate, and Dopey Dan the CEO, he would have been removed by the Board months ago.

He has presided over the greatest public health disaster in Australian history.

A staggering cost of 100s of lives (already, more into the future from suicide, DV, increased crime) and a massive economic cost to boot.

Need I go on?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 27, 2020, 03:43:41 pm
With all due respect FB, nothing you have stated here actually discusses any point I was making so you are disagreeing with what point that I have stated?

FWIW, I dont speak from public numbers either.  I speak from my anecdotal experience of what I am seeing at the health network I work at.

I.e.  6 weeks ago, they were actually reverting back to normal at the health network I work at.  Our covid cases being admitted were low, and elective surgery was back on the table.  So much so, that the dedicated covid ward had been halved. 

Meanwhile, It was only last week, that one of our hospitals went live with a "clean and dirty" zone in their emergency department (an indictment on whoever is running the show there) but I think they were funnelling a lot of patients elsewhere until the numbers jumped in presentations at all sites.

The data at state, national, international level can paint whatever picture people want it to, but I want to point something out.

Most of the time, statistics are a lagging indicator.

What our management and Chief Medical Officer has been stating, is that the jump in numbers of positive cases don't lead to an increase of hospitalisation with anything but a 10 day lag time, and everyone started feeling very uncomfortable the minute we got to 100 positive cases per day and the discomfort wasnt seen in the network I work at for at least another fortnight.

Even now, there is a greater number of COVID positive patients at our hospital than there was even 1 month ago.  Why else do you think we are hearing about Peninsula health having 600 staff on furlough now?

The biggest problem?

We are a population of 5 million people (roughly across the city).  Our current total of positive cases is roughly 18714.  Our current Active cases is at 3300 odd.  Our deaths are sitting at 485, and our hospitals are under considerable strain with respect to their staffing already.  We have a very small sample number of what this virus can and cannot do, and I am not even speaking about that.

We can go with the open slather approach, let COVID run rampant, have most of our hospitals unable to be staffed, and then have stroke patients, dialysis patients, cancer patients, etc go into hospital for a "standard" health problem, and then have complications from their admission by contracting Covid whilst they are in there.

Its a very short sighted based on public viewpoint, to turn around and quote numbers, without seeing how this can quickly run away from us, and that is entirely the point of masks and lockdowns.  Its not necessarily there to stop the spread.  They actually prevent the behaviour that will cause the spread.  I.e. masks are uncomfortable, so less people put themselves in situations where they must wear one, therefore the mask works because it deters a behaviour that would otherwise cause people to spread the virus around.

Even our testing numbers dont tell a story.  We have incidents of people being tested 4 times, walking away happy as larry after a few weeks developing symptoms and coming back with a positive result shocked.  The reality?  They got sick somewhere after their last test.  Therefore take the millions of tests performed, quarter the number, and you are closer to the number of people actually tested to achieve a positive result.

Do the stats you quote show any of the above data?



I suggested you were 'wrong' based on the out of control numbers comment.

It wasn't out of control, the cases were always going to come once the testing was cranked up.

And sure I get the lag between test/positive case and hospitalisation.

Remember, once you've tested positive, you're immediately pulled off the grid.

And I get the perceived intent of signalling.

But the data in the chart (DHHS data) simply doesn't reveal any effect from either lock down or the mask mandate. Certainly, not enough to justify their implementation when you factor in the fall out on the other side!

It's not short sighted to rely on the data. It's what has to be relied on.  Everything else is pie in the sky speculation.

And there's too much at stake to speculate I would have thought.

Sorry Thry, but your 'it would run away' but for.... claim, simply is not supported by the data. Virus do what viruses do....and again,
Outside of the homes, and we all knew what would happen based on Europe and the US if the bug got into the homes, but outside that subset, deaths have been all but zero. We can address the died with or of another day?

You may have read about the crazy outbreak of cases in Spain in recent days - i think 5000+ cases in a day.

But look at the deaths (and yes, i appreciate you'll say wait for the lag to have effect) - barely a blip!

And that is reflected in many overseas jurisdictions too.

There simply is no solid evidence to support lock downs or masks (for otherwise healthy folk).

Social distancing - yeah, I get that. Ditto hand washing.

The rest is politics.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 27, 2020, 04:15:11 pm
But again, the gradient did not increase post Stage 3 lock down, even after allowing a lag.

And before masks.

Dan's fault? 100%.

Let's be frank, if the government was a corporate, and Dopey Dan the CEO, he would have been removed by the Board months ago.

He has presided over the greatest public health disaster in Australian history.

A staggering cost of 100s of lives (already, more into the future from suicide, DV, increased crime) and a massive economic cost to boot.

Need I go on?


When you are talking about the gradient increasing, surely you mean decreasing?

The gradient has decreased since stage 3, masks and with lag, stage 4 too. Perhaps not as much as you'd hope, but i said that had to do with the differences between stage 3 and 4 being minimal.

Stage 2->Stage 3 took 1 million cars off the road.
Stage 3->Stage 4 took 250k off the road.

We can not expect to see the same drop off between stages because the expected result is not the same. Its not a linear correlation.

As for the 100's of lives Dan has 'caused' from suicide and what not.....long bow there. We could do nothing like the US and cost PLENTY more than that via Covid.

If you want to accuse Dan of anything its being overly cautious.
Given the alternative, i think its acceptable.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 27, 2020, 04:27:34 pm
FWIW....
https://www.abc.net.au/radio/melbourne/programs/mornings/suicide-rates-not-affected-by-covid-19/12601632?
Quote
The number of suicide deaths in Victoria during the coronavirus pandemic has not risen, according to data from the Coroners Court of Victoria.

State Coroner Judge John Cain says the court plans to release monthly suicide data to open up the conversation about suicide prevention.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 27, 2020, 04:34:26 pm
@LP....
So why is it typical for R0 to drop? Surely its a constant?
True, the R0 is effectively a constant for any one strain of virus, but it has to be measured first.

In the early stages the uncertainty displayed in the error bars on a scientific graph will be huge, it might be R0 = 3.0 ± 2.0, the uncertainty diminishes greatly once the sample size is big enough, when a lot of measuring has been completed! Now it might be R0 = 0.8 ± 0.2.

Also not to forget, SARS.CoV-2 today 27th August 2020 is not the same as SARS-CoV-2 three months back, there are more strains today, with some less virulent and some more virulent. Some old strains have vanished, other new ones have appeared. Many of the accumulated numbers do not differentiate.

If anybody wants a read, there is a very nice plain language PDF linked here, https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2020/04/modelling-the-current-impact-of-covid-19-in-australia.pdf
A smaller clipping is attached below.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 27, 2020, 06:55:10 pm
Perhaps, above all things, this pandemic has demonstrated how brittle our health networks are - physical and mental health. How under resourced they are. Perhaps like the military we really should have 'reserves' of medical folks / mental health professionals and physical locations ready to handle major / sudden increases.

Most of us are fully aware that our mental health resources are under-funded to an embarrassing level and like our hospitals the existing levels are already inadequate and vulnerable so when a pandemic comes along they're simply fckd (a very effective technical medical term  ;D ). And we appreciate that with systems already stretched they too easily fold hence doing everything to 'flatten' curves of admission to minimize a horrible potential that could have been avoided in the first place... with vision, common sense and health care priority.

3 Leos made an extremely important point, one based on fact and one incredibly relevant - when the inadequate system is suddenly stretched by a huge increase in admissions what happens to other urgent medical situations - the treatments 3 Leos mentioned?

I would add, who else gets pushed a little down the line? Who ends up just neglected enough to jeopardize their health further? Who replaces the front line medical folks who get the pandemic? How many 'elective surgeries' are going to become emergencies because of delays stretching to months?

And to pick up on the good points The Flying Lad from 77 made, and perhaps stretch them a little further - I wonder what kinds of results we would get in a bad influenza season, call it Satan Flu for dramatic effect, and test squillions of folks? Are we likely to come up with similar figures to C-19 - in pure numbers and fatality rates and stresses to existing medical resources?

(Just to extend upon the mental health aspect re suicides owing to lockdown - it's a reality and a tragedy, however, if our mental health departments and institutions were far better funded from the get go these folks would likely have the support they need to get through a lockdown).

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 27, 2020, 09:37:50 pm
When you are talking about the gradient increasing, surely you mean decreasing?

The gradient has decreased since stage 3, masks and with lag, stage 4 too. Perhaps not as much as you'd hope, but i said that had to do with the differences between stage 3 and 4 being minimal.

Stage 2->Stage 3 took 1 million cars off the road.
Stage 3->Stage 4 took 250k off the road.

We can not expect to see the same drop off between stages because the expected result is not the same. Its not a linear correlation.

As for the 100's of lives Dan has 'caused' from suicide and what not.....long bow there. We could do nothing like the US and cost PLENTY more than that via Covid.

If you want to accuse Dan of anything its being overly cautious.
Given the alternative, i think its acceptable.

Yes, I thought you'd pick up the incorrect gradient comment, sure it's a negative slope blah, blah but you know full well what I meant, just couldn't help yourself.

The rest of your commentary is nothing but emotional BS.

The drop off - there is none. Invalid comment sorry.

Cars on roads stat? You're running with that? Smoked a number tonight?

Accusing Dan.

He's hung himself. Doubt he'll be in Parliament by Christmas.

You're another with this Armageddon alternative logic. Lose it, it's unscientific.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 27, 2020, 09:43:27 pm
Perhaps, above all things, this pandemic has demonstrated how brittle our health networks are - physical and mental health. How under resourced they are. Perhaps like the military we really should have 'reserves' of medical folks / mental health professionals and physical locations ready to handle major / sudden increases.

Most of us are fully aware that our mental health resources are under-funded to an embarrassing level and like our hospitals the existing levels are already inadequate and vulnerable so when a pandemic comes along they're simply fckd (a very effective technical medical term  ;D ). And we appreciate that with systems already stretched they too easily fold hence doing everything to 'flatten' curves of admission to minimize a horrible potential that could have been avoided in the first place... with vision, common sense and health care priority.

3 Leos made an extremely important point, one based on fact and one incredibly relevant - when the inadequate system is suddenly stretched by a huge increase in admissions what happens to other urgent medical situations - the treatments 3 Leos mentioned?

I would add, who else gets pushed a little down the line? Who ends up just neglected enough to jeopardize their health further? Who replaces the front line medical folks who get the pandemic? How many 'elective surgeries' are going to become emergencies because of delays stretching to months?

And to pick up on the good points The Flying Lad from 77 made, and perhaps stretch them a little further - I wonder what kinds of results we would get in a bad influenza season, call it Satan Flu for dramatic effect, and test squillions of folks? Are we likely to come up with similar figures to C-19 - in pure numbers and fatality rates and stresses to existing medical resources?

(Just to extend upon the mental health aspect re suicides owing to lockdown - it's a reality and a tragedy, however, if our mental health departments and institutions were far better funded from the get go these folks would likely have the support they need to get through a lockdown).




This, even the way it has manifested (as a small fart), was a black swan.

During this second wave, which has well peaked, 45/1400 odd ICU beds were used.....

It doesn't even rank in the top 20 causes of death in Australia this year.

What planet are so many living on.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 27, 2020, 09:46:25 pm
FWIW....
https://www.abc.net.au/radio/melbourne/programs/mornings/suicide-rates-not-affected-by-covid-19/12601632?

Exactly. It's how they know circa 100% of the current 'infections' (such a wanky word) source from Dan's HQ disaster.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 27, 2020, 09:48:00 pm
FWIW....
https://www.abc.net.au/radio/melbourne/programs/mornings/suicide-rates-not-affected-by-covid-19/12601632?

No one believes that.

Indeed, it flies in the face of what Cain said not long ago - i'll try and find a reference.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 27, 2020, 10:19:03 pm
Yes, I thought you'd pick up the incorrect gradient comment, sure it's a negative slope blah, blah but you know full well what I meant, just couldn't help yourself.

The rest of your commentary is nothing but emotional BS.

The drop off - there is none. Invalid comment sorry.

Cars on roads stat? You're running with that? Smoked a number tonight?

Accusing Dan.

He's hung himself. Doubt he'll be in Parliament by Christmas.

You're another with this Armageddon alternative logic. Lose it, it's unscientific.
Couldn't help myself??

I'm trying to make sense of your ramblings.
If you are confusing up with down, then what hope do i have finding the logic in your posts?

Cars on road stats, is an example of the effect on what the difference between stages should reflect in the numbers.
Which compared to what you used......ie nothing....is not worth poo-pooing.

No drop off? So the numbers are not going down?? OK. No SIGNIFICANT drop off, perhaps, but it only takes a new breakout to stop that....and given the number of people blatantly flaunting the rules, i'm not surprised.

Quote
You're another with this Armageddon alternative logic. Lose it, it's unscientific.
My armageddon logic? I am nothing if not logical.
As i said, if you want to accuse Dan of anything, its being overly cautious.
The armageddon alternative you snigger at.....well ask the italians about taking this thing too lightly.


Quote
No one believes that.
How can anyone argue with such a well thought out and articulated scientific rebuttal?!

You have an issue with Dan, so be it, don't twist facts, and ignore others to suit that argument.....and then question other peoples logic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 27, 2020, 10:49:46 pm
Couldn't help myself??

I'm trying to make sense of your ramblings.
If you are confusing up with down, then what hope do i have finding the logic in your posts?

Cars on road stats, is an example of the effect on what the difference between stages should reflect in the numbers.
Which compared to what you used......ie nothing....is not worth poo-pooing.

No drop off? So the numbers are not going down?? OK. No SIGNIFICANT drop off, perhaps, but it only takes a new breakout to stop that....and given the number of people blatantly flaunting the rules, i'm not surprised.
My armageddon logic? I am nothing if not logical.
As i said, if you want to accuse Dan of anything, its being overly cautious.
The armageddon alternative you snigger at.....well ask the italians about taking this thing too lightly.

How can anyone argue with such a well thought out and articulated scientific rebuttal?!

You have an issue with Dan, so be it, don't twist facts, and ignore others to suit that argument.....and then question other peoples logic.

Rah, rah,

It goes back to the data, the chart. Undeniable stuff.

You can't get your head around it?

 ok.

Stick to supporting the Blues.

You're an electrical engineer right?

I expected more sorry.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 27, 2020, 10:52:05 pm
ps Kruddler.

At least this is making you think.

And you know it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 27, 2020, 11:15:27 pm
Rah, rah,

It goes back to the data, the chart. Undeniable stuff.

You can't get your head around it?

 ok.

Stick to supporting the Blues.

You're an electrical engineer right?

I expected more sorry.
Electronic engineering was a past life, but the logic required sticks with me.

Data is one thing.
Interpretation is another.

I reject your interpretation.

....and you don't know what i believe, not even close.

Because i take issue with some of your points, does not mean i disagree with all of them.
Because i take issue with some conspiracies, does not mean i dismiss all of them.

Stick to talking facts and leave your interpretations out of it.

As for making me think? Don't flatter yourself.
I actually got into a fight with my wife the other day because i pointed out that the amount of media attention this gets is over the top compared to how deadly it is. My angle was from a strictly 'killer' point of view, there are too many other things that kill more on a daily basis. I don't think this is top 10.
However, by the same token, economically it deserves coverage as it is unprecedented.

That being said....i refer to my previous point....
Stage 4 occurred NOT because of an increase in deaths/cases, but as a measure to limit the long term economic damage. A stage 4 will get us back to a status quo quicker than a drawn out stage 3. Dan Andrews wants to end this sooner rather than later, and not draw it out.

THAT is something your table won't show.

Perhaps you should do some more thinking....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 27, 2020, 11:27:55 pm
This is hilarious! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 27, 2020, 11:31:55 pm
This is hilarious! ;D
lol

I forgot to add...

*mike drop*
 ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 28, 2020, 08:59:45 am
Rah, rah,

It goes back to the data, the chart. Undeniable stuff.

You can't get your head around it?

 ok.

Stick to supporting the Blues.

You're an electrical engineer right?

I expected more sorry.


What a dreadful condescension. FB77, the amount of arrogance required to say that to K is breathtaking. Are you so glued to your opinion and perspective that you resort to a kind of intellectual snobbery toward anyone who doesn't revere your opinion and fall to their knees in agreement, as evidenced by such put-downs? Play the ball Cocko, not the man.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 28, 2020, 09:38:23 am
C'mon guys, let's keep it civil.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 28, 2020, 10:32:41 am
C'mon guys, let's keep it civil.
My perception on much of this SARS-CoV-2 debate follows my observations about political debate on things like climate change, health and economics. It's clear some debate this in good faith, while others do not.

Seemingly the concept of debating in good faith is absent from much of the social media commentary, and absent from quite a lot of modern media reporting, that seems to be due to the lack of stewardship, ownership and curation. In the old days of reporting all media reporting had attached to it stewardship, ownership and oversight(curation). Anonymity is the main problem, nobody posting crap can be exposed or identified, they feel safe behind a wall of crap!

Modern social media likes to overload the concept of curation with paranoia, the idea that something that is edited is somehow tainted, but in reality serious curation improves content by throwing out he rubbish, while uncurated content delivers the message rubbish and all, which requires the reader to wade through and sort the rubbish from reality. In the extreme those debating without good faith flood the debate with crap, bastardised cherry picked selective facts and misinforation, it is not an accident, it is a deliberate tactic that relies on the reader assuming the total content is provided in good faith.

The worst case of debating without good faith is obviously Trump and Bannon, they basically fill the airwaves with crap. Bannon is alleged to have previously publicly stated his tactic is to fill the media with so much crap content that nobody can tell crap from substance, it's bad news for everybody because the vast majority of the public are not aware of this malintent.

The good news is simply this. Once you become cognisant of the fact that not all debate is engaged in good faith, you can quickly and easily start to recognise the patterns of malintent. That little bit of knowledge effectively exposes, flushes and thoroughly removes all the crap from the debate with almost zero effort!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on August 28, 2020, 11:07:15 am
@LP.
I'll just add the caveat that not all folk who take an opposing view are acting and debating in bad faith though.
They may be wrong but they actually believe in their words and actions.
The trick is to keep an open mind... read, watch, listen.
Once you close your mind to other opinions you immediately have a bias.
Bias often turns to hate.
And when you're a hater off goes your head and on goes a pumpkin.
That's when the problems start because you can find 'evidence' to support just about any point of view or conspiracy, no matter how ridiculous it might seem on the 'dark old web.'
...and something that we may believe to be true today may not be the case tomorrow.
 




Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 28, 2020, 12:14:19 pm
@LP.
I'll just add the caveat that not all folk who take an opposing view are acting and debating in bad faith though.
They may be wrong but they actually believe in their words and actions.
The trick is to keep an open mind... read, watch, listen.
 True, the denial of genuine evidence like arguing against basic math is a real tell though!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on August 28, 2020, 12:21:31 pm
True, the denial of genuine evidence like arguing against basic math is a real tell though!

Undoubtedly.
Be careful with Science though.
When I went to school Jupiter had 12 moons.
Now it's 79 and counting. ;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 28, 2020, 12:26:32 pm
Undoubtedly.
Be careful with Science though.
When I went to school Jupiter had 12 moons.
Now it's 79 and counting. ;D  ;D  ;D
Yes no doubt, but that is a refined measurement not a deliberate misrepresentation.

The tell there is you accept the new measurement as new evidence, you don't continue to argue Jupiter has 12 moons.

I realise some might be mislead but dubious websites, and have real conviction in the argument, but putting blinkers on will hardly instill confidence in the motives behind the debate.

I'm more aware now about the mental health of the people that get involved in these debates, but I've no less conviction about debunking crap as it is remains the primary cause of the duress and many other troubles.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on August 28, 2020, 12:39:21 pm
Yes no doubt, but that is a refined measurement not a deliberate misrepresentation.

The tell there is you accept the new measurement as new evidence, you don't continue to argue Jupiter has 12 moons.

I realise some might be mislead but dubious websites, and have real conviction in the argument, but putting blinkers on will hardly instill confidence in the motives behind the debate.

I'm more aware now about the mental health of the people that get involved in these debates, but I've no less conviction about debunking crap as it is remains the primary cause of the duress and many other troubles.

The comment was meant as a bit of a joke but to use it to make the point....

I'm not sure how many moons Jupiter has.
I don't know.
No-one does.
There are currently 79 'known' moons.
I don't discount the possibility that there are more that will be discovered as detection capabilities are improved.
I'm keeping an open mind. ;)



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 28, 2020, 12:49:34 pm
The comment was meant as a bit of a joke but to use it to make the point....
 I have no detectable sense of humor!  :(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 28, 2020, 01:27:32 pm
What a dreadful condescension. FB77, the amount of arrogance required to say that to K is breathtaking. Are you so glued to your opinion and perspective that you resort to a kind of intellectual snobbery toward anyone who doesn't revere your opinion and fall to their knees in agreement, as evidenced by such put-downs? Play the ball Cocko, not the man.





Cry me a river Baggers.

Arrogance? Condescension?

Kruddler's a big boy.

Play the ball you suggest.

I did.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on August 28, 2020, 01:28:28 pm
Got abused on my walk (take your mask off idiot... Wake up!!!  It's a government conspiracy to reduce the population by giving everyone legionnaires disease!) by a plandemic protestor wearing a box on her head... 

There's nuff nuffs out there people... Stay safe one and all.

Sounds more like mental illness than conspiracy theorist but, whatever the cause, it’s not pleasant to be abused and particularly when you’re doing the right thing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 28, 2020, 02:12:44 pm
Undoubtedly.
Be careful with Science though.
When I went to school Jupiter had 12 moons.
Now it's 79 and counting. ;D  ;D  ;D

The definition of "moon" needs a serious rethink when some total moron idiots in the astronomy field claimed Pluto wasn't even a planet.  The ignorance and arrogance is astounding. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 28, 2020, 04:47:12 pm
The definition of "moon" needs a serious rethink when some total moron idiots in the astronomy field claimed Pluto wasn't even a planet.  The ignorance and arrogance is astounding. 

It was a planet before there was an actual definition of what a planet was.

Once they finally decided to define what a planet was, Pluto didn't fit the bill.

There are actually bigger rocks in the asteroid belt than pluto, and would fit the bill of being a planet moreso than what pluto does.

So do you change the criteria to fit pluto in......and let in potentially hundreds more? Or do you downgrade Pluto to a 'dwarf planet' so all those plutonites can still feel warm and fuzzy.

As an aside....what is a continent?
I'm sure you know all of the continents, but what is the definition of one? Is there an actual scientific definition of one?
;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 28, 2020, 04:49:19 pm
What a dreadful condescension. FB77, the amount of arrogance required to say that to K is breathtaking. Are you so glued to your opinion and perspective that you resort to a kind of intellectual snobbery toward anyone who doesn't revere your opinion and fall to their knees in agreement, as evidenced by such put-downs? Play the ball Cocko, not the man.

Don't worry baggers, that is flyboys way of admitting defeat. ;)

I reckon he might be nursing a hangover today as his posts seem to go downhill pretty quickly the later it got.

I do notice how he replied to you, but ignore my rebuttal. Wonder why. ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 28, 2020, 05:05:54 pm
Once they finally decided to define what a planet was, Pluto didn't fit the bill.

Who in the hell are "they"?  There's hundreds of well known scientists ahead in the queue of the IAU that refuse to accept an arbitrary decision.  Angers me ... total crap

The bonsai tree is still a tree
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 28, 2020, 05:09:43 pm
Who in the hell are "they"?  There's hundreds of well known scientists ahead in the queue of the IAU that refuse to accept an arbitrary decision.  Angers me ... total crap

The bonsai tree is still a tree
Quote
Quote
A new class of objects and how to define a planet
The IAU has been responsible for the naming and nomenclature of planetary bodies and their satellites since the early 1900s. As Professor Ron Ekers, past president of the IAU, explains:

Such decisions and recommendations are not enforceable by any national or international law; rather they establish conventions that are meant to help our understanding of astronomical objects and processes. Hence, IAU recommendations should rest on well-established scientific facts and have a broad consensus in the community concerned.(read the full article on page 16 of the IAU GA Newspaper)

The IAU decided to create a committee to gather opinions from a broad range of scientific interests, with input from professional astronomers, planetary scientists, historians, science publishers, writers and educators. Thus the Planet Definition Committee of the IAU Executive Committee was formed and quickly went about preparing a draft resolution to put to the members of the IAU. After the final meeting in Paris the draft resolution was completed. One crucial aspect of the resolution is described by Professor Owen Gingerich, Chair of the IAU Planet Definition Committee: "On the scientific side, we wanted to avoid arbitrary cut-offs simply based on distances, periods, magnitudes, or neighbouring objects". (read more in the IAU GA Newspaper, starting on page 16 of the PDF)

Well someone has to come up with standards that set the groundwork. These guys have been doing it for over 100 years, so why not?!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 28, 2020, 06:10:40 pm
Couldn't give a stuff ... Pluto is a planet.  EOS
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 28, 2020, 08:06:02 pm
Cry me a river Baggers.

Arrogance? Condescension?

Kruddler's a big boy.

Play the ball you suggest.

I did.

 :-*
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 28, 2020, 08:38:46 pm
Couldn't give a stuff ... Pluto is a planet.  EOS

lol.....i've never met someone so passionate about something so meaningless to our existance.

So....what is a continent?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 28, 2020, 09:02:48 pm
So....what is a continent?

We are
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 28, 2020, 09:10:26 pm
We are

Do 'we' include New Zealand?

What defines a continent?
What can you say is common about all known continents??
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 28, 2020, 09:22:44 pm
We're not a bloody island.  Come up with your own definitions  8)   OUT of here
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 28, 2020, 09:30:13 pm
We're not a bloody island.  Come up with your own definitions  8)   OUT of here

I honestly had no idea of this when i posed the question. Freaky.
https://www.india.com/viral/zealandia-is-earths-eighth-new-continent-scientists-discover-5million-square-kilometer-landmass-east-of-australia-1845982/
Quote
ZEALANDIA is Earth’s eighth new continent! Scientists discover 5million square kilometer landmass east of Australia

Point i am making is this, there is no definition of a continent. You just 'know' what the are.
Same with planets. There was no definition of one. You just 'knew' what they were.

Science doesn't work like that.

You need to be able to tell someone the criteria, and then they should be able to work out what fits it. If they come up with the same planets/continents, huzzah.

However, You can not tell them the answer and ask them the question, its not jeopardy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on August 28, 2020, 11:27:47 pm
It was a planet before there was an actual definition of what a planet was.

Once they finally decided to define what a planet was, Pluto didn't fit the bill.

There are actually bigger rocks in the asteroid belt than pluto, and would fit the bill of being a planet moreso than what pluto does.

So do you change the criteria to fit pluto in......and let in potentially hundreds more? Or do you downgrade Pluto to a 'dwarf planet' so all those plutonites can still feel warm and fuzzy.

As an aside....what is a continent?
I'm sure you know all of the continents, but what is the definition of one? Is there an actual scientific definition of one?
;)

Continents?  I seem to recall that we had a run in about that some time ago  :D

My oldest brother is an astronomer and he was over the moon when Pluto lost its status as a planet.  I think that his point of view was that it should never have been considered as a planet in the first place.

I haven’t really kept up with the debate but I think that the large asteroid known as Pluto has been reinstated as a planet.  I’m sure that the folk who make these decisions know a hell of a lot more than me and I’m more than happy to accept the results of their analyses.

The same reasoning has me on board with the best scientific analysis of COVID-19; I’ll take Norman Swan’s assessment as being as good as you can get.  At the other end of the scale, Andrew Blot’s ravings are as meaningful as Collingwood and Essendon supporters debating the meaning of life.  Sadly, the state of emergency powers don’t enable charges of sedition to be laid against Blot  >:(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 28, 2020, 11:36:53 pm
'Dwarf' planet.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 29, 2020, 07:49:03 am
The definition of a planet is one that has been able to clear its orbit of other bodies.

This is a cracking analogous debate meanwhile.   The status of the solar system and Pluto is only modified in name and interpretation.

Likewise covid19.  Where you sit on its threat is entirely subjective unless you take andrews approach.  His isnt subjective.  He has taken actions to Prevent the spread of a disease without worrying too much about the data regarding how bad it could be and worried solely about trying to shut it down.

Whether or not we should be doing that is an entirely different debate.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 29, 2020, 08:59:44 am
The definition of a planet is one that has been able to clear its orbit of other bodies.

That is 1 of the criteria, and specifically the one that Pluto fails. Its 'moon' charon is half its size.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on August 29, 2020, 10:55:01 am
Assistant Commissioner Luke Cornelius is the man:

"The tinfoil hat wearing brigade are alive and well out there in our community and they are taking every opportunity to leverage the current situation to serve their own ridiculous notions about so-called sovereign citizens, about constitutional issues about how 5G is going to kill your grandkids.”

“It’s just crazy, it’s batsh1t crazy nonsense. People need to wake up to themselves because the wider community is awake to you and you need to stop it.”

Nice to hear a public official telling it like it is  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 29, 2020, 11:07:47 am
That is 1 of the criteria, and specifically the one that Pluto fails. Its 'moon' charon is half its size.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRIjzu08OtAvxiZDgWGLXMIiUmiV_W1nK8LPg&usqp=CAU)

Who said I failed!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 29, 2020, 12:56:35 pm
Assistant Commissioner Luke Cornelius is the man:

"The tinfoil hat wearing brigade are alive and well out there in our community and they are taking every opportunity to leverage the current situation to serve their own ridiculous notions about so-called sovereign citizens, about constitutional issues about how 5G is going to kill your grandkids.”

“It’s just crazy, it’s batsh1t crazy nonsense. People need to wake up to themselves because the wider community is awake to you and you need to stop it.”

Nice to hear a public official telling it like it is  :)
Make him Premier now and let him keep his gun.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on August 29, 2020, 01:37:27 pm
The definition of "moon" needs a serious rethink when some total moron idiots in the astronomy field claimed Pluto wasn't even a planet.  The ignorance and arrogance is astounding. 

Ummm, that’s a display of that humor stuff Lods was just discussing... wasn’t it ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on August 29, 2020, 01:40:15 pm
Couldn't give a stuff ... Pluto is a planet.  EOS

🤣🤣
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on August 29, 2020, 01:44:08 pm
Continents?  I seem to recall that we had a run in about that some time ago  :D

My oldest brother is an astronomer and he was over the moon when Pluto lost its status as a planet.  I think that his point of view was that it should never have been considered as a planet in the first place.

I haven’t really kept up with the debate but I think that the large asteroid known as Pluto has been reinstated as a planet.  I’m sure that the folk who make these decisions know a hell of a lot more than me and I’m more than happy to accept the results of their analyses.

The same reasoning has me on board with the best scientific analysis of COVID-19; I’ll take Norman Swan’s assessment as being as good as you can get.  At the other end of the scale, Andrew Blot’s ravings are as meaningful as Collingwood and Essendon supporters debating the meaning of life.  Sadly, the state of emergency powers don’t enable charges of sedition to be laid against Blot  >:(

And that’s the truth of it, every Denis Denuto and Karen in the country are now virologists...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 29, 2020, 01:57:49 pm
I like the way the anti-Iso-COVID-Cranks claim that the lack of supporting suicide numbers is some sort of ABC led conspiracy.

But the ABC was just relaying what the Victorian State Coroner reported in his official statement, the same report being broadcast on The Dots, Channel CheatsTV and the Also Rans, but you won't hear that mentioned by the anti-ISO-COVID-Cranks, instead they will waffle on that the ABC is socialist run  lunatic asylum allegedly making stuff up to support the lock down! ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 29, 2020, 04:15:14 pm
The mass state of confusion with changing policy on the run is one reason I'd never allow Andrews that level of control.  Or anyone else.  Enough of the stuff ups

There is no confusion. Just do as your told....

and next election vote for the party who always pulls us out of the mess Labour puts us in.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 29, 2020, 04:55:54 pm
Assistant Commissioner Luke Cornelius is the man:

"The tinfoil hat wearing brigade are alive and well out there in our community and they are taking every opportunity to leverage the current situation to serve their own ridiculous notions about so-called sovereign citizens, about constitutional issues about how 5G is going to kill your grandkids.”

“It’s just crazy, it’s batsh1t crazy nonsense. People need to wake up to themselves because the wider community is awake to you and you need to stop it.”

Nice to hear a public official telling it like it is  :)

Refreshing.

C0ckheads who endanger the wider community with flagrant disregard for others are just the kinds of self-interested pr1cks who need to pull in their heads. Not a team player? Then FO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 29, 2020, 04:59:00 pm
There is no confusion. Just do as your told....

and next election vote for the party who always pulls us out of the mess Labour puts us in.

No offense MBB, but I reckon the scorecard is pretty even there. And not so sure Andrews got us into this mess -- which we seem to be getting on top of now -- lets let the investigation find out exactly who stuffed up and let down the entire team of VIC.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 29, 2020, 05:24:44 pm
No offense MBB, but I reckon the scorecard is pretty even there. And not so sure Andrews got us into this mess -- which we seem to be getting on top of now -- lets let the investigation find out exactly who stuffed up and let down the entire team of VIC.
We know, that is we have already been told, 99% of the second wave cases here in Vic have been traced back to the Hotel Quarantine debacle. So far, the ministers in charge (Jenny M), Vicpol and the security firms have not been portrayed in a very good light.  As you say, lets wait and see but many are saying Andrews wont make it to Xmas as Prem.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on August 29, 2020, 06:21:46 pm
We know, that is we have already been told, 99% of the second wave cases here in Vic have been traced back to the Hotel Quarantine debacle. So far, the ministers in charge (Jenny M), Vicpol and the security firms have not been portrayed in a very good light.  As you say, lets wait and see but many are saying Andrews wont make it to Xmas as Prem.

It happened under his watch so he needs to go. In some ways I admire his persistance but that doesn't make up for the damage and deaths he is ultimately responsable for. Jenny M should go with him.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on August 29, 2020, 08:27:54 pm
We know, that is we have already been told, 99% of the second wave cases here in Vic have been traced back to the Hotel Quarantine debacle. So far, the ministers in charge (Jenny M), Vicpol and the security firms have not been portrayed in a very good light.  As you say, lets wait and see but many are saying Andrews wont make it to Xmas as Prem.

I think that will be Xmas 2026  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 30, 2020, 07:23:50 am
I think that will be Xmas 2026  :)
Not a chance, another point is this may have taken a severe toll on him mentally. He cannot possibly be sleeping well. This is all consuming but of a different nature, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if once it's under some sort of control he walks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 30, 2020, 07:50:46 am
We know, that is we have already been told, 99% of the second wave cases here in Vic have been traced back to the Hotel Quarantine debacle. So far, the ministers in charge (Jenny M), Vicpol and the security firms have not been portrayed in a very good light.  As you say, lets wait and see but many are saying Andrews wont make it to Xmas as Prem.

Notice how in the other states they are able to get on top of things quickly because irrespective of how they get sick, people stop socialising with others stay home and actually do the right thing?

Hotel Quarantine or not every state has experienced outbreaks.  only in ours became one where people didn't care about it because they were too worried about getting on with life rather than doing the right thing and staying home when they got sick.

A security guard went menulog delivering ffs from those hotels on the same day he developed symptoms.

Pathetic. These Rhodes scholars are the problem.  We've been told since march that if you get sick stay home. 

People keep talking about the Quarantine in a way to tie the blame back to the premier but we wouldn't have 500 covid deaths if people did the right thing rather than continuing to thumb their nose at the government.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 30, 2020, 08:16:20 am
People keep talking about the Quarantine in a way to tie the blame back to the premier but we wouldn't have 500 covid deaths if people did the right thing rather than continuing to thumb their nose at the government.

Three letters ... A. D. F.  Two words ... nursing homes


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 30, 2020, 08:27:17 am
Notice how in the other states they are able to get on top of things quickly because irrespective of how they get sick, people stop socialising with others stay home and actually do the right thing?

Hotel Quarantine or not every state has experienced outbreaks.  only in ours became one where people didn't care about it because they were too worried about getting on with life rather than doing the right thing and staying home when they got sick.

A security guard went menulog delivering ffs from those hotels on the same day he developed symptoms.

Pathetic. These Rhodes scholars are the problem.  We've been told since march that if you get sick stay home. 

People keep talking about the Quarantine in a way to tie the blame back to the premier but we wouldn't have 500 covid deaths if people did the right thing rather than continuing to thumb their nose at the government.
My wife and I constantly debate this and whilst I agree in part that the this is largely due to people doing the wrong thing, I still think it comes back to those in charge putting measures in place to cater for the lowest common denominator. In any workplace incident, investigations usually focus on training, procedures, management, protocols etc. It usually goes up the chain of command and thats where ultimate responsibility lies. Thry you work in the health industry IIRC, your training and exposure makes this all second nature to you. As an Engineer and Project Manager, I have worked on many projects in the Pharmaceutical sector so the concepts of hygiene, sterility etc is second nature to me. But I have dealt with people who struggle with even the most basic of concepts with regards to the above. With all due respect to them but to expect security guards on minimum wage engaged via a Whatsapp message to grasp all these concepts instantly with little or no training is a little rich in my opinion. Yes I agree, common sense should prevail, but as I have stated on many occasions, common sense aint that common anymore. When this broke out, I initially thought "mate you had one job, guard a door and stop people coming in or out". What is being detailed now is beyond belief. They should have followed the model adopted by other states, instead...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on August 30, 2020, 08:30:37 am
Absolutely Thry!

Governments might provide protocols for controlling pandemics but its people who determine whether or not those protocols work.  We see examples of folk disregarding or blatantly disobeying the protocols every day and right across the country.

And then there’s the Oligarch’s media minions demanding that all restrictions be lifted  >:(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 30, 2020, 08:31:53 am
@Gointocarlton

How many 'people in charge' to you go through before you get to Andrews though?

Its a long bow to call for his head because 10 people under him failed to do the right thing first re training.

Of course, even if there was the proper training in place, it only takes 1 'denier' to ruin it for everyone and i don't think they will publicly out themselves as one in a job interview if its going to cost them a job.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 30, 2020, 08:38:32 am
@Gointocarlton

How many 'people in charge' to you go through before you get to Andrews though?

Its a long bow to call for his head because 10 people under him failed to do the right thing first re training.

Of course, even if there was the proper training in place, it only takes 1 'denier' to ruin it for everyone and i don't think they will publicly out themselves as one in a job interview if its going to cost them a job.
I dont know if it will get to Andrews, lets wait and see. However it may not start that low that it won't get to him though. Whilst plausible that a denier could cause a problem, I think its fair to say based on what we have heard to date thats not what we are dealing with here.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 30, 2020, 09:30:48 am
90% of international flights being directed through Melbourne + poor security company standards and training = what we got.

Hopefully the investigation will discover and reveal exactly how these poorly trained (if at all) people were entrusted to such important roles... They are the heads that should roll. This C-19 has revealed many cracks in many systems.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 30, 2020, 01:49:31 pm
Notice how in the other states they are able to get on top of things quickly because irrespective of how they get sick, people stop socialising with others stay home and actually do the right thing?

Hotel Quarantine or not every state has experienced outbreaks.  only in ours became one where people didn't care about it because they were too worried about getting on with life rather than doing the right thing and staying home when they got sick.

A security guard went menulog delivering ffs from those hotels on the same day he developed symptoms.

Pathetic. These Rhodes scholars are the problem.  We've been told since march that if you get sick stay home. 

People keep talking about the Quarantine in a way to tie the blame back to the premier but we wouldn't have 500 covid deaths if people did the right thing rather than continuing to thumb their nose at the government.

We had stricter rules than any other state. The problem was the governement were more focused on families catching up than quarantining the people who were actually infected.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 30, 2020, 02:46:50 pm
Andrew's paid plenty for three security firms that failed to deliver basic security when the ADF offer was a freebie. It backfired saying no and he lied about it if you believe the ADF senior officer who said they had the staff available.
Trump has more chance of being re-elected than Andrews IMHO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 30, 2020, 03:31:48 pm
Andrew's paid plenty for three security firms that failed to deliver basic security when the ADF offer was a freebie. It backfired saying no and he lied about it if you believe the ADF senior officer who said they had the staff available.

I know who'd I believe.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Jack Burton on August 30, 2020, 08:28:15 pm
The role of the unions in influencing Andrews' decisions is one that I am interested in hearing more about
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 31, 2020, 02:31:45 pm
My wife and I constantly debate this and whilst I agree in part that the this is largely due to people doing the wrong thing, I still think it comes back to those in charge putting measures in place to cater for the lowest common denominator. In any workplace incident, investigations usually focus on training, procedures, management, protocols etc. It usually goes up the chain of command and thats where ultimate responsibility lies. Thry you work in the health industry IIRC, your training and exposure makes this all second nature to you. As an Engineer and Project Manager, I have worked on many projects in the Pharmaceutical sector so the concepts of hygiene, sterility etc is second nature to me. But I have dealt with people who struggle with even the most basic of concepts with regards to the above. With all due respect to them but to expect security guards on minimum wage engaged via a Whatsapp message to grasp all these concepts instantly with little or no training is a little rich in my opinion. Yes I agree, common sense should prevail, but as I have stated on many occasions, common sense aint that common anymore. When this broke out, I initially thought "mate you had one job, guard a door and stop people coming in or out". What is being detailed now is beyond belief. They should have followed the model adopted by other states, instead...

Thats fine but it all falls down at this point to me:

Somewhere along the way, we have 2 hotels, who somehow became the issue, and yet Crown and the likes dont.

Why is that?

Likewise, I know a couple of Ambulance drivers who have tested positive to COVID 19.  They all take the precautions, PPE, washing down the truck, etc, but due to simple circumstance of being involved directly with patients, they ended up with COVID.

Perhaps its as simple as the disease is as infectious as they keep telling us it is, and that is why people get sick from it so the best way to not get sick is to limit your exposure to both people who might be sick, and situations where you might spread it around if you did come into contact with people who get sick.

Maybe doubling up as a security guard and a menulog driver mightnt have been the smartest idea?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 31, 2020, 03:44:54 pm
Thats fine but it all falls down at this point to me:

Somewhere along the way, we have 2 hotels, who somehow became the issue, and yet Crown and the likes dont.

Why is that?

Likewise, I know a couple of Ambulance drivers who have tested positive to COVID 19.  They all take the precautions, PPE, washing down the truck, etc, but due to simple circumstance of being involved directly with patients, they ended up with COVID.

Perhaps its as simple as the disease is as infectious as they keep telling us it is, and that is why people get sick from it so the best way to not get sick is to limit your exposure to both people who might be sick, and situations where you might spread it around if you did come into contact with people who get sick.

Maybe doubling up as a security guard and a menulog driver mightnt have been the smartest idea?


The bold bit Thry, exactly why you dont let untrained people work on the front line, what hope have they got if highly trained people are at risk?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 31, 2020, 04:32:47 pm
The bold bit Thry, exactly why you dont let untrained people work on the front line, what hope have they got if highly trained people are at risk?

It still doesnt explain why the outbreak is isolated to one or two hotels when multiple were used, and it also shows that the ADF might not have yielded any different result (if they were truly available anyway).  The early days of PPE vs the last 8 weeks are a very different proposition even in our hospital.  There was no N95 masks and face shield wearing in COVID areas up until July because they didnt have the stock.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 31, 2020, 06:30:02 pm
It still doesnt explain why the outbreak is isolated to one or two hotels when multiple were used, and it also shows that the ADF might not have yielded any different result (if they were truly available anyway).  The early days of PPE vs the last 8 weeks are a very different proposition even in our hospital.  There was no N95 masks and face shield wearing in COVID areas up until July because they didnt have the stock.
A lot of nursing staff are very unhappy about the quality of PPE provided, were promised the top stuff but received the cheap Chinese rubbish instead, uncomfortable, been marking their face and poor fitting.
I know this has been extraordinary times but you hope we have learned plenty and are never short on the basics again and spend the money on the people who need it, not millions to three security firms who couldnt do the job.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 31, 2020, 08:14:52 pm
It still doesnt explain why the outbreak is isolated to one or two hotels when multiple were used, and it also shows that the ADF might not have yielded any different result (if they were truly available anyway).  The early days of PPE vs the last 8 weeks are a very different proposition even in our hospital.  There was no N95 masks and face shield wearing in COVID areas up until July because they didnt have the stock.

You would hope the ADF wouldn't be working as Uber drivers on the side.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 31, 2020, 08:40:28 pm
You would hope the ADF wouldn't be working as Uber drivers on the side.
I remember raising a similar point about the ADF when it was revealed that the security guards were shagging the potentially infected return travellers. I suggested it wouldnt have happened if AFD staff were in charge and someone on here said something like "you dont know ADF staff very well" ;D  ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 01, 2020, 07:46:57 am
You would hope the ADF wouldn't be working as Uber drivers on the side.
I know an officer in the Army, he is not confident at all that soldiers wouldn't be found up to something on the side or boofing the guests!

In fact he thinks a some of them are trained and conditioned to find loopholes and escape routes, which they apply to the rules of engagement and conduct at every opportunity! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 01, 2020, 10:13:04 am
I remember raising a similar point about the ADF when it was revealed that the security guards were shagging the potentially infected return travellers. I suggested it wouldnt have happened if AFD staff were in charge and someone on here said something like "you dont know ADF staff very well" ;D  ;D

Yeah, I think that was David and me... military personnel have plenty of lotharios and left to their own devices would wreak havoc - wouldn't be a safe 'cavity' for miles. HOWEVER, the military personnel wouldn't be working for the security companies... big differentiation, they'd be working for military officers who would be far stricter, more organised, more strategic, more disciplined and without tolerance for -- in this case -- hotel guests going for 'food & grog' runs and military personnel 'engaging' with those they're guarding.

We've learnt a lot recently about how fckd security companies are in terms of discipline and trustworthiness... not to mention p1ss poor training. And someone must have been aware of how inept these pr1cks were before employing them, or should of at least investigated them to gain assurances as to their bona fides and reliability, especially considering how much was at stake.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 01, 2020, 11:22:09 am
Chain of command Baggers ... they were swarming in Orbost during our bushfires and they were ALL seriously good.  Even my American wife was seriously impressed 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 01, 2020, 11:57:08 am
Yeah, I think that was David and me... military personnel have plenty of lotharios and left to their own devices would wreak havoc - wouldn't be a safe 'cavity' for miles. HOWEVER, the military personnel wouldn't be working for the security companies... big differentiation, they'd be working for military officers who would be far stricter, more organised, more strategic, more disciplined and without tolerance for -- in this case -- hotel guests going for 'food & grog' runs and military personnel 'engaging' with those they're guarding.

We've learnt a lot recently about how fckd security companies are in terms of discipline and trustworthiness... not to mention p1ss poor training. And someone must have been aware of how inept these pr1cks were before employing them, or should of at least investigated them to gain assurances as to their bona fides and reliability, especially considering how much was at stake.
Poor training is an understatement....my bro inlaw did pistol training as part of his job with some of these security blokes and one of them managed to shoot the instructor in the head accidently, lucky he survived but none of them are a threat to join mensa anytime soon.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 01, 2020, 11:58:30 am
Poor training is an understatement....my bro inlaw did pistol training as part of his job with some of these security blokes and one of them managed to shoot the instructor in the head accidently, lucky he survived but none of them are a threat to join mensa anytime soon.
David Hookes would attest to that if were still with us.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 01, 2020, 12:09:58 pm
Chain of command Baggers ... they were swarming in Orbost during our bushfires and they were ALL seriously good.  Even my American wife was seriously impressed 

Spot on, CC and well summarised with those words - chain of command. There are times serious regimentation is exactly what is needed, people who take charge and take responsibility and are accountable. And don't take sh1te. It is a known fact in international military circles that the Aussies (and Kiwis) are among the best in the world.

I can't help myself... a little story from my military (R.A.N.) past. It's 1973, September (I remember the date clearly as the bloody Tiggers knocked us off in the GF) and we're on manoeuvres in Hawaii. It was us, HMAS Brisbane (a DDG class - guided missile destroyer), plus a Canadian surface ship, plus a Kiwi surface ship and one of our subs... might have been the Otway or Ovens. The Yanks were the other team and had about 7 surface ships (including an aircraft carrier) and a sub or two. Anyway, you pretend it's warfare and run around for a couple of days using electronic impact recordings which were silent, and then everything is tallied up at the end to see who got what. The Yanks reckon they wiped us all out... when the electronic 'hits' data came in, we'd wiped out every Yank ship before they got off one shot! We ended up being shouted some of the best food and drink at the officer's quarters at Pearl Harbour... what a feast and the Yanks were embarrassed but full of praise and really generous. A few of us had too much to drink and set about 'seducing' many of the American Naval Officer's wives - but that's another story for another day.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 01, 2020, 12:50:17 pm
Remember the a/c carrier Baggers?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 01, 2020, 01:34:23 pm
My father was in the forces and then police force for 30 years, as were many who returned form the war.

He'd tell you about the respect for his colleagues, and the respect you should hold them in, because the average person has no idea what they have to go through.

At the same time he would always warn to be alert of people in authority, not because they are any worse or any better than the general public, but because they have a privileged position that leads to unparalleled opportunity to bend the rules and just like the general public they aren't all above temptation. He said the biggest mistake you can make is an assumption.

Same applies to most forces and emergency services of any type.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 01, 2020, 02:14:35 pm
I used to work with a number of ex police officers.  Let's just say that they looked after their own and were always 'open to opportunities '.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 01, 2020, 02:48:52 pm
I used to work with a number of ex police officers.  Let's just say that they looked after their own and were always 'open to opportunities '.
I suppose that is why they were ex!

There are two careers that are almost irresistible to wannabe crooks, lawyer and police officer!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 01, 2020, 04:18:09 pm
And right on cue:
From HS today
Drug use in Victorian-based military personnel revealed
More than 40 Victorian-based navy, army and air force members have tested positive to drugs in the past three years. More than half came from one branch but, unlike almost all their defence force colleagues, eight were able to keep their jobs.

Victorian-based navy personnel were more likely to be caught doing party drugs than their army or air force counterparts, with ecstasy being their substance of choice.

Results from the Australian Defence Force’s Prohibited Substance Testing Program obtained by a Freedom of Information request revealed 22 navy members tested positive to a drug test in the past three financial years.

Nineteen soldiers and two airmen also tested positive in that period.

Ecstasy was the most detected drug in sailors followed by cocaine. Army personnel results showed a higher use of amphetamines.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 01, 2020, 04:42:07 pm
Service personnel have been known to love a few drinks since Pontius was a pilot!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 01, 2020, 05:11:14 pm
Remember the a/c carrier Baggers?

Sure do, USS Kitty Hawk. I also remember the refuelling ship USS Ponchatoula (had to look up Wiki to check the spelling!!!). A few of us hung out with blokes from the coast guard vessell USCGC Midgett.

Sheesh, your question sure did take me down memory lane, so much so I called a mate who served on the Brisbane with me (also a Sparker - communications) and he reminded me that when we were there an historic event took place in that the first Japanese military vessel berthed in Pearl Harbour since WW2... it was a submarine but neither of us could remember the name, only how much of an 'event' it was... not all the locals were happy!!!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 01, 2020, 05:17:50 pm
And right on cue:
From HS today
Drug use in Victorian-based military personnel revealed
More than 40 Victorian-based navy, army and air force members have tested positive to drugs in the past three years. More than half came from one branch but, unlike almost all their defence force colleagues, eight were able to keep their jobs.

Victorian-based navy personnel were more likely to be caught doing party drugs than their army or air force counterparts, with ecstasy being their substance of choice.

Results from the Australian Defence Force’s Prohibited Substance Testing Program obtained by a Freedom of Information request revealed 22 navy members tested positive to a drug test in the past three financial years.

Nineteen soldiers and two airmen also tested positive in that period.

Ecstasy was the most detected drug in sailors followed by cocaine. Army personnel results showed a higher use of amphetamines.

When considering the 1000s of military personnel who passed through Vic in the past 3 years that's a pretty low number, much lower than the % would be in the general public. You can be pretty sure that any who weren't caught by testing but were caught by other service personnel, stopped the habit - immediately.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 01, 2020, 05:20:45 pm
Service personnel have been known to love a few drinks since Pontius was a pilot!

I think you'll find that's the door over there... yep, the one to your left Fluffy One...  'since Pontius was a pilot' 😢 😢 😢
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 01, 2020, 05:26:20 pm
Its amazing how showing the ADF is imperfect too doesnt result in people perhaps re-assessing whether or not the result would have been any different.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 01, 2020, 05:32:17 pm
Its amazing how showing the ADF is imperfect too doesnt result in people perhaps re-assessing whether or not the result would have been any different.

It would have been very different... as CC pointed out, there would have been a clear chain of command - instructions with Commissioned Rank personnel being responsible...

I'd much rather an imperfect (nothing is perfect) ADF guarding my grandparents than a security company.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 01, 2020, 05:42:35 pm
I think you'll find that's the door over there... yep, the one to your left Fluffy One...  'since Pontius was a pilot' 😢 😢 😢
Found it..😁
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 01, 2020, 08:55:31 pm
It would have been very different... as CC pointed out, there would have been a clear chain of command - instructions with Commissioned Rank personnel being responsible...

I'd much rather an imperfect (nothing is perfect) ADF guarding my grandparents than a security company.

We'll never know for sure baggers. 

The amount of discussion about a communist state going around leads me to believe it would have simply reinforced that opinion about a police state.

I stand by my opinion that we were on a hiding to nothing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 01, 2020, 09:40:54 pm
Sure do, USS Kitty Hawk. I also remember the refuelling ship USS Ponchatoula (had to look up Wiki to check the spelling!!!). A few of us hung out with blokes from the coast guard vessell USCGC Midgett.

That (Kitty Hawk) was the radio call sign name for the Apollo 14 mission command module in 1971 .... chosen by the first American in space (Al Shepard) when he landed on the moon, a navy guy.  Fits in with the time period.  Thanks Baggers !!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 03, 2020, 04:58:29 pm
Here is a grim left-field turn up for the fans of urgent and swift unrestricted re-opening, ........... mold!

It turns out that many in the food and beverage industry, as well as those locking down CBD office blocks and schools, were a bit too quick to abandon ship when the Isolation curfew hit.

They made hay while the sun shone, maximising profits to the very last second, before express leaving the building and forgetting to do a bit of basic maintenance before turning off the lights, like emptying the bins, dumping the deep fryer oil, or closing the window.

As such many restaurateurs and building supervisors around the globe are returning to find food facilities over-run with mold, cooling towers overloaded with legionnaire's disease, air-conditioning ducts full of mushroom spores and pests of all sorts having entered the building.

Fans of the resumption are being warned to be very very careful in the first few days and weeks of the re-open, not to be too quick to resume dinner dates and office parties.

The safe play seems to be do it the good old fashioned Best of British Officer way and bring it up the rear! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 08, 2020, 12:14:32 pm
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/terry-mccrann/terry-mccrann-victorias-premier-must-quit-over-his-governments-ineptitude/news-story/5c61be1c41f282439074d267b749b83d

How come Daniel Andrews did not resign as Premier of Victoria on Sunday?

This is not posed as a rhetorical question or just to have a cheap shot.

His immediate resignation is the simple, unarguable and utterly undeniable logic of the fact that he has presided over the greatest public policy catastrophe in modern Australian history.

I am not talking only or even mostly about the direct failures in relation to the virus — the, to put it bluntly if brutally, 675 deaths, and counting.

But of the massive economic and financial — as well as similarly massive personal and health — havoc that Andrews has been mandatorily imposing, and will continue to impose, on the state and its 6.5 million citizens as the “cure” for his and his government’s stunning failure.

Let us be very and again undeniably clear: Sunday was all and only about incompetent government making all 6.5 million Victorians pay, and pay a crushing price for its governance failure.

If there were any accountability, if Andrews possessed the slightest shred of self-awareness of his own failure, how could he not resign?

What, it was so absolutely vital that the person who had presided over the catastrophe, was the only one who could preside over the even more devastating journey out of it?

It’s not even like the captain of the Titanic demanding that he and only he could command the lifeboats, pulling away from the sinking ship.
No, it’s much worse than that. Andrews is like that captain demanding that we entrust to him the management of even getting into the lifeboats and — hopefully — clearing the ship in the first place before it sinks.

And indeed no; not even demanding we entrust him, but just taking the right to do so. I’m the captain and you will do what I command.

The facts of the catastrophe are raw and simply undeniable. They are not a matter of subjective opinion or projection.

Victoria has had a staggering 89 per cent of the all the virus deaths in Australia. That is only “so far”; the percentage will continue to rise inexorably above 90 per cent.

Perhaps the Premier can tell us where he thinks it will finish? Indeed, will he feel vindicated in his management of his own catastrophe if he can keep it below 95 per cent?

Almost all of those Victorian deaths — something like 655 of the 675, and counting — were a direct result of the criminal negligence of the quarantine debacle.

It’s not me claiming that, it’s what the Premier’s own Chief Health Officer, Brett Sutton, has said; that genomic tracing indicated that almost all the cases in the “second wave” came from that source.

The quarantine catastrophe was a direct result of decisions made by the Andrews Government.

The cases and deaths alone were bad enough; what has made it worse, so much worse — in terms of governance failure — is the economic, financial and broader destruction, seeping deep into the lives of all 6.5 million Victorians, that the Premier has mandated.

That he has mandated, arguably unnecessarily and even punitively.
It doesn’t seem to have even occurred to the Premier — silly me, of course it wouldn’t occur to him — that all this devastation he has mandated is precisely the most crushing and irrefutable condemnation of his and the government’s inexcusable failure.

In any functioning parliamentary democracy, the premier would have held ministers of the relevant decision-making departments accountable and sacked them.

By not sacking them, the Premier has assumed to himself their governance culpability and should have resigned.

It is of course not his style; as Premier he has never held anyone inside his tent accountable for even misfeasance far less malfeasance — “high crimes and misdemeanours”, to quote from the US constitution, which now look like petty theft in comparison with this governance catastrophe.

He of course blusters and deflects in the embarrassingly childish way he goes about it. “It’s not for me to comment”; “that’s for the quarantine inquiry”; I’m totally focused on fixing things” etc.

And what of his supine, silent, spineless, uniformly incompetent cabinet?

I’m reminded of the Spitting Image skit of Margaret Thatcher presiding over a dinner with her (all-too similar) cabinet.

The waiter asks how does she like her steak? Rare she replies. And what about the vegetables? They’ll have the same as me.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 08, 2020, 01:39:24 pm
He just lurches from one disaster to the next ... but he's "grateful" to all Victorians.

Great comfort. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on September 08, 2020, 01:55:41 pm
I read today that the health department was described by an epidemologist as a empty shell compared to all other states. Dan is a disgrace and Jenny M the same as they're both in the same condition as the health department.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 08, 2020, 02:09:52 pm
I read today that the health department was described by an epidemologist as a empty shell compared to all other states. Dan is a disgrace and Jenny M the same as they're both in the same condition as the health department.
Sounds like the Victorian contact tracing system would be worthy of some close independent scrutiny.  I recall that the state government also rejected offers of assistance from outside experts in this area some time ago now. Were they trying to cover up something?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 08, 2020, 02:15:22 pm
5 cases a day or less is a hard ask given NSW cant achieve that over time, reckon that target needs to be reviewed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 08, 2020, 02:25:26 pm
5 cases a day or less is a hard ask given NSW cant achieve that over time, reckon that target needs to be reviewed.
Do you get the impression that other states are looking for ways to move out of restrictions whereas Vic continues to look for reasons to keep or extend them? I get the feeling that Dan A is paranoid and has little faith in the people and systems involved in managing the pandemic here? Not making excuses for him btw.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 08, 2020, 02:39:45 pm
Sounds like the Victorian contact tracing system would be worthy of some close independent scrutiny.  I recall that the state government also rejected offers of assistance from outside experts in this area some time ago now. Were they trying to cover up something?
Ive been told thats ADF run.

Meanwhile, my mate an ambo driver tested positive and was in lockdown for over 7 days before HE contacted THEM to do the contact tracing.

Lucky he was responsible enough to stay put.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 08, 2020, 02:43:28 pm
Do you get the impression that other states are looking for ways to move out of restrictions whereas Vic continues to look for reasons to keep or extend them? I get the feeling that Dan A is paranoid and has little faith in the people and systems involved in managing the pandemic here? Not making excuses for him btw.
Dan is trying to be Jacinda A from NZ but forgets he is running a state not a country.....I have been a supporter of the harsh lock down like what happened in NZ but you need to be able to change your thinking on the run and learn as you go and Dan seems like he has set the course on auto pilot and doesnt want to alter it for fear of being seen as wrong if things change.
He has bunkered in after ScoMo, Frymo have dissed him and its a bit of Labor vs Liberal politics now hampering the recovery.
Watched Q and A last night and the head of the AMA doesnt agree with Brett Suttons thinking so I'm wondering where Sutton is getting his advice from....next time we need a more national approach rather than the State by State approach IMO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 08, 2020, 03:15:21 pm
It's not just Dan, but Victoria that is in the gun, everybody is looking for someone to blame and if Andrew's is guilty of anything it's putting a target on Victoria's back.

You just never hear media reports about the early lock-down stages when Australia was bringing the bulk of International flights into Melbourne or other such uncomfortable facts! But you hear how families coming off those flights have pooped the COVID bed! btw., In these COVID breaches, there are always at least two parties involved, not just the security guards, etc., etc.!

I do not understand all the State and Federal finger-pointing, SARS-CoV-2 won't stop at the Murray River!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 08, 2020, 04:54:28 pm
Yep.  I have to say the idea of driving the numbers down before easing out of stage 4 lockdown doesnt seem all that wrong to me.

Whats two more weeks in the scheme of things anyway.  Right now, we are at similar levels that we were at when we entered stage 4 lockdown. 

Even the slow easing of lockdown is right.  We came out of the last lockdown too quick and look how that turned out.

At the end of the day, people are just frustrated.  Fair enough too. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 08, 2020, 05:00:01 pm
I'm a bit over this finger pointing at Dan BS.

Lets say he did resign over this.....right now. Would people be happy about that? I doubt it. I reckon the majority of the responses would be that he was spineless for walking away in the middle of a crisis......a crisis he created. They would not let up.
Of course, whoever took over could be much worse.....but all the blame would fall back on Dan no doubt.

Nobody is perfect, and if he had his time again, he might do a few things different. Sure.
#1 on the list would be do NOT trust people to do the right thing. As ultimately, thats why we are in this mess.

If he is guilty of anything, its believing Victorians will do what they are told, or what is in their best interests.

But no....we know better....we want to protest the whole thing, and at the same time make everything worse in the process by continuing the spread and ensuring lockdown continues even longer. We want to call for Dans head because we can't go out for a latte or a beer.

Look, i get it, i have never been one to bow down to authority or do as i'm told, but FFS, use your brain...do what you have been asked to do and you will get what you want.....quicker!

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 08, 2020, 05:04:20 pm
Do you get the impression that other states are looking for ways to move out of restrictions whereas Vic continues to look for reasons to keep or extend them? I get the feeling that Dan A is paranoid and has little faith in the people and systems involved in managing the pandemic here? Not making excuses for him btw.
Like the article MBB posted suggested, pretty rich to expect or put faith in the bloke who farked it to fix it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 08, 2020, 05:09:18 pm
I'm a bit over this finger pointing at Dan BS.

Well Im abit over Dan pointing the finger at me and my fellow Victorians. He may be doing his best but they farked it, we are in this mess because of them, he and his Gov needs to take responsibility.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 08, 2020, 05:12:09 pm
Well Im abit over Dan pointing the finger at me and my fellow Victorians. He may be doing his best but they farked it, we are in this mess because of them, he and his Gov needs to take responsibility.

Did he personally give corona virus to someone?

Or was it a victorian who did not do what they were told and gave it to someone?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 08, 2020, 05:13:26 pm
Did he personally give corona virus to someone?

Or was it a victorian who did not do what they were told and gave it to someone?
Dont be a DH, you know what I meant.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 08, 2020, 05:16:49 pm
Dont be a DH, you know what I meant.

I know what you mean, but do you see what i mean and why dan is blaming victorians?

As i said before. Dans biggest issue was trusting us to do the right thing. We didn't......and now we are calling for his head because we didn't do what we were told.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 08, 2020, 05:23:20 pm
I know what you mean, but do you see what i mean and why dan is blaming victorians?

As i said before. Dans biggest issue was trusting us to do the right thing. We didn't......and now we are calling for his head because we didn't do what we were told.
Trusting us or trusting the Security firms "HE" hired which used Whatsapp to onboard guards with little or no training? I am not necessarily calling for his head, I think he will be judged by the very people he has locked up. I also suggested a number of posts ago that I also think this saga will take its toll on him and he may pull the pin for his own well being.
Also, I apologise for for the DH jibe, that was unnecessary.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 08, 2020, 05:24:36 pm
Well one thing is for sure, in terms of those "managerial bureaucrats" while ignoring the politicians for now, the whole COVID situation seems to have proven something we all suspected.

Being a moron and a dickhead doesn't stop you from potentially getting a highly paid public service job, I wouldn't trust them to pump gas as they would probably wear synthetic clothing and set the joint of fire!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 08, 2020, 05:29:14 pm
Seriously, it doesnt matter anymore.  Its here now.  The security firms skimmed money off the top, and hired bargain basement staff.

That is the epitome of not giving a fork.

Ditto the returned travellers, who were not satisfied with 2 weeks in a hotel room at the expense of the tax payer.

At the end of the day, its not about this anymore.

Some of the leading voices are doctors calling for an end to the lockdowns are bleeding money via their private consulting rooms.  What does that tell you?  They have a vested interest in not being locked down anymore.

Who can you actually trust?  The bloke who is in charge, trying to implore people to help get the numbers down?  Or the ones who talk about how people arent taking their health seriously as the numbers of referals to private rooms have dropped.  Its a joke.  These guys only care about their hip pockets.  Yet, that was caused this mess to begin with.  500 doctors all signed a petition.  All of them practising at places like Cabrini, Epworth, Mulgrave private hospitals.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 08, 2020, 05:32:20 pm
Trusting us or trusting the Security firms "HE" hired which used Whatsapp to onboard guards with little or no training? I am not necessarily calling for his head, I think he will be judged by the very people he has locked up. I also suggested a number of posts ago that I also think this saga will take its toll on him and he may pull the pin for his own well being.
Also, I apologise for for the DH jibe, that was unnecessary.

Apology accepted.

No doubt it is taking a toll on him. You can see it in how he carries himself.
You can see he is busting his butt to get us all through this and everytime he thinks he's got it licked, us Victorians start a protest, or start a riot with cops, or some other stupid $hit that makes his life a whole lot harder.

Look, i know this hits close to home for you and i'm not trying to make light of the horrible situation that has come from it all.
I think plenty of heads should roll for what happened, but i think there is A LOT of misdirected anger and he is, unfairly IMHO, copping the brunt of it.

I've said before that there is probably a bunch of managers/supervisors/underlings that are more to blame than him in this situation. He didn't personally hire the company, nor train the people, nor did he personally oversee it. Others did and they should be blamed.

Ultimately though, it was us and our failure to do as we were told that was the issue, not the incompetence of the security guard in question.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on September 08, 2020, 06:54:23 pm
To get anywhere near the end steps we'll have to lock the borders, especially to NSW so we don't get the virus that we gave them. A certain irony there.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 08, 2020, 07:28:29 pm
Right from the get-go of the lockdowns I was really impressed with Dan, ScoMo and other States... not so much NSW which fckd up the whole Ruby Princess thing but they quickly learned from it.

When the first stage 4 was relaxed things looked pretty good. Oz (and the Kiwis) was the envy of the world.

Then around 90% of international returns were funneled through Melbourne. And so the sh1t show commenced... our Ruby Princess (hotel quarantines) ended up being far worse than NSW and much worse in handling. AND the Grand Canyon issues in Aged Care burst forth.

What really, really surprised me -- and I'm still none the wiser why -- was that Dan didn't leap on escalating numbers the 2nd time like he did the first time. He sat on his hands for some inexplicable reason and waited... and waited... and waited until we got into the 600s re daily new cases - the horse had bolted and was having a ball, quarantining had failing and our elderly were being kicked in the guts.

Incompetent quarantining was a major contributor. Did we not learn from the NSW Ruby Princess experience? Who was responsible for overseeing hotel quarantining? Aged Care? Who was the accountable one, the one in command, boots on the ground at the coal face assessing the every detail and on top of it all?

Now Vic officials and the ADF are involved in Sydney in teaching we Vics how to trace efficiently. Apparently our tracing was sub standard... how come? Who is responsible for such a dreadful error that has literally cost lives, business, employment, mental health and the state's economy - big time.

Seems we're finally reining in the figures and Stage 3 is in sight. And hopefully stage 2 by Christmas and the entire nation on just about the same page with borders open.

Dan commented that the buck stops with him and he is ultimately responsible. So he has to root out those accountable for the huge stuff ups and give them the flick, and if that, in fact means himself... so be it.

However, the Feds could and should have done more. It started out all cozy with a bromance between Dan and ScoMo but now it has degenerated into a political stoush. That's cr@p and cheap and plain opportunistic and does not serve the community.

In the future I really believe that the Federal Govt should take command of a pandemic and assign the states to administering and implementing the strategy with Fed help (which means ADF/BIOhaz teams running the show).

The upside of all this -- bearing in mind we were warned of this years ago and did fck all -- there will be lessons learned and a national strategy in place to leap on any such eventuality in the future... with a nationally co-ordinated approach - that means, ScoMO, take fckn charge knackers, step up to the plate. AND there must be a national standard put in place for security company's PLUS much, much, much more attention to protecting our vulnerable/aged - get those sleazy profiteers out of Aged Care.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 08, 2020, 07:41:15 pm
You know why Dan didn't jump into the next stage of lockdown straight away? Because of the backlash he was receiving from the public. People were angry. They were scared. Businesses would crumble.

He waited, he hoped, he prayed. BUT, we didn't listen and the numbers kept going the wrong way.

So he was too lenient, for our benefit.

Now, he is deemed as being too harsh.....again for our benefit as we don't listen.

He is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 08, 2020, 07:55:06 pm
We didn't listen? Is that you Dan?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 08, 2020, 08:01:04 pm
I know what you mean, but do you see what i mean and why dan is blaming victorians?

As i said before. Dans biggest issue was trusting us to do the right thing. We didn't......and now we are calling for his head because we didn't do what we were told.


My 5yo can join dots better.

It is the biggest screw up in Australian public health history.

And who sat at the head of the totem?

That known micro manager. The guy who took 7 years to complete a BA then went straight into the political butt licking game....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 08, 2020, 08:02:37 pm
Seriously, it doesnt matter anymore.  Its here now.  The security firms skimmed money off the top, and hired bargain basement staff.

That is the epitome of not giving a fork.

Ditto the returned travellers, who were not satisfied with 2 weeks in a hotel room at the expense of the tax payer.

At the end of the day, its not about this anymore.

Some of the leading voices are doctors calling for an end to the lockdowns are bleeding money via their private consulting rooms.  What does that tell you?  They have a vested interest in not being locked down anymore.

Who can you actually trust?  The bloke who is in charge, trying to implore people to help get the numbers down?  Or the ones who talk about how people arent taking their health seriously as the numbers of referals to private rooms have dropped.  Its a joke.  These guys only care about their hip pockets.  Yet, that was caused this mess to begin with.  500 doctors all signed a petition.  All of them practising at places like Cabrini, Epworth, Mulgrave private hospitals.

It matters a lot - Cedar Meats, hotel quarantine, f... ups in contract tracing = incompetent.

A blind monkey throwing darts at a board would get more things right.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 08, 2020, 08:04:30 pm
You know why Dan didn't jump into the next stage of lockdown straight away? Because of the backlash he was receiving from the public. People were angry. They were scared. Businesses would crumble.

He waited, he hoped, he prayed. BUT, we didn't listen and the numbers kept going the wrong way.

So he was too lenient, for our benefit.


Now, he is deemed as being too harsh.....again for our benefit as we don't listen.

He is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.

Leaders DO NOT do that, they lead, they take charge, they do what they know is in the public's best interest... and you never trust the public at large -- plenty of ripper folks but enough c0ckheads to fck it up for everyone else. NZ didn't hope, or pray, or wait - bang, both times Jacinda was onto it regardless of what people thought... and this a month out from elections - she risked being unpopular but knew what was best for the population and fckn jumped on it.

If Dan holds firm on this, risks being unpopular... well, better late than never but he will still cop flack for his slow response and the subsequent costs.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 08, 2020, 08:12:53 pm
Cedar meats was handled well.

They released that genomic sequencing graph and it show that they shut that spread down very quickly.

The Rydges hotel quarantine? Not so good, but that's what you get when you use cab drivers as security.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 08, 2020, 08:24:52 pm
We didn't listen? Is that you Dan?

As a collective? Did we?

I know i've done my part, but i know not everyone else has.

You want him to name the individuals? Or is this a 'team game'.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 08, 2020, 08:26:15 pm
Leaders DO NOT do that, they lead, they take charge, they do what they know is in the public's best interest... and you never trust the public at large -- plenty of ripper folks but enough c0ckheads to fck it up for everyone else. NZ didn't hope, or pray, or wait - bang, both times Jacinda was onto it regardless of what people thought... and this a month out from elections - she risked being unpopular but knew what was best for the population and fckn jumped on it.

If Dan holds firm on this, risks being unpopular... well, better late than never but he will still cop flack for his slow response and the subsequent costs.
See, you are in the lockdown camp.
You are in the minority....i think.

Most others say he has gone too hard on lockdown.

In the end, its all just educated guesswork which we are learning on the fly.

He can't win.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 08, 2020, 08:34:24 pm
As a collective? Did we?

I know i've done my part, but i know not everyone else has.

You want him to name the individuals? Or is this a 'team game'.

I did my part like 99% of Victorians. Loonies will be loonies, you can't control them. If we put the same effort into the quarantine (You know the people who had the virus) as they did for "Freedom Day" we wouldn't be in lockdown.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on September 08, 2020, 09:26:34 pm
Looking at his 'road-map' from a distance I think his strategy might be to present a worst case set of standards.
He can then soften the dates and bring them forward to a grateful state.

Politically that's better than releasing too soon and actually have to keep to or tighten restrictions down the track.
Make no mistakes, while the health considerations are still the most important element....'politics' is now a major player and will become increasingly so.

And pollies we've praised will be shown to be the old self-serving mob they've always been.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 08, 2020, 11:15:39 pm
Right from the get-go of the lockdowns I was really impressed with Dan, ScoMo and other States... not so much NSW which fckd up the whole Ruby Princess thing but they quickly learned from it.

When the first stage 4 was relaxed things looked pretty good. Oz (and the Kiwis) was the envy of the world.

Then around 90% of international returns were funneled through Melbourne. And so the sh1t show commenced... our Ruby Princess (hotel quarantines) ended up being far worse than NSW and much worse in handling. AND the Grand Canyon issues in Aged Care burst forth.

What really, really surprised me -- and I'm still none the wiser why -- was that Dan didn't leap on escalating numbers the 2nd time like he did the first time. He sat on his hands for some inexplicable reason and waited... and waited... and waited until we got into the 600s re daily new cases - the horse had bolted and was having a ball, quarantining had failing and our elderly were being kicked in the guts.

Incompetent quarantining was a major contributor. Did we not learn from the NSW Ruby Princess experience? Who was responsible for overseeing hotel quarantining? Aged Care? Who was the accountable one, the one in command, boots on the ground at the coal face assessing the every detail and on top of it all?

Now Vic officials and the ADF are involved in Sydney in teaching we Vics how to trace efficiently. Apparently our tracing was sub standard... how come? Who is responsible for such a dreadful error that has literally cost lives, business, employment, mental health and the state's economy - big time.

Seems we're finally reining in the figures and Stage 3 is in sight. And hopefully stage 2 by Christmas and the entire nation on just about the same page with borders open.

Dan commented that the buck stops with him and he is ultimately responsible. So he has to root out those accountable for the huge stuff ups and give them the flick, and if that, in fact means himself... so be it.

However, the Feds could and should have done more. It started out all cozy with a bromance between Dan and ScoMo but now it has degenerated into a political stoush. That's cr@p and cheap and plain opportunistic and does not serve the community.

In the future I really believe that the Federal Govt should take command of a pandemic and assign the states to administering and implementing the strategy with Fed help (which means ADF/BIOhaz teams running the show).

The upside of all this -- bearing in mind we were warned of this years ago and did fck all -- there will be lessons learned and a national strategy in place to leap on any such eventuality in the future... with a nationally co-ordinated approach - that means, ScoMO, take fckn charge knackers, step up to the plate. AND there must be a national standard put in place for security company's PLUS much, much, much more attention to protecting our vulnerable/aged - get those sleazy profiteers out of Aged Care.

Slight correction baggers.  I think you'll find our worst days of positive cases happened after we started locking down again.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 08, 2020, 11:16:32 pm
It matters a lot - Cedar Meats, hotel quarantine, f... ups in contract tracing = incompetent.

A blind monkey throwing darts at a board would get more things right.

Actually it doesn't.   The issue is so far behind us, it doesn't matter anymore.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 09, 2020, 01:20:25 pm
I notice the Oxford Vaccine has been pout on hold after a serious allergic reaction or side-effect suffered by a trial participant. These sorts of delays usually add months, and if not understood it can lead to a trial being cancelled, it'll be interesting to see what sort of impact it has in the current urgent environment.

This is typical, and why it is very wise to be nervous or sceptical of rushed solutions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on September 09, 2020, 01:44:20 pm
I notice the Oxford Vaccine has been pout on hold after a serious allergic reaction or side-effect suffered by a trial participant. These sorts of delays usually add months, and it if not understood it can lead to a trial being cancelled, it'll be interesting to see what sort of impact it has in the current urgent environment.

This is typical, and why it is very wise to be nervous or sceptical of rushed solutions.

So, so true. Beware the Trump magic vaccine, coming to you direct from the Nick Riviera centre for infectious disease.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 09, 2020, 02:22:52 pm
So, so true. Beware the Trump magic vaccine, coming to you direct from the Nick Riviera centre for infectious disease.

Id be wary of any vaccine at the moment.  Without knowing a lot about vaccines, or without being an expert on infectious diseases its unfathomable to me, that we would green light a vaccine for 25 million people on the current data.  our infection rate is low.  The cure could cause more issues than the disease.

I notice the Oxford Vaccine has been pout on hold after a serious allergic reaction or side-effect suffered by a trial participant. These sorts of delays usually add months, and if not understood it can lead to a trial being cancelled, it'll be interesting to see what sort of impact it has in the current urgent environment.

This is typical, and why it is very wise to be nervous or sceptical of rushed solutions.

You know, to quote trump, this might just be fake news?

I.e.  they release a "set back" publically.  Then when they announce that its a false alarm, its supposed to instill confidence that the appropriate checks and balances are being followed.

Yet:

https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/08/astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-study-put-on-hold-due-to-suspected-adverse-reaction-in-participant-in-the-u-k/

In a follow-up statement, AstraZeneca said it initiated the study hold. The nature of the adverse reaction and when it happened were not immediately known, though the participant is expected to recover, according to an individual familiar with the matter.

advertisement

The spokesperson described the pause as “a routine action which has to happen whenever there is a potentially unexplained illness in one of the trials, while it is investigated, ensuring we maintain the integrity of the trials.” The spokesperson also said that the company is “working to expedite the review of the single event to minimize any potential impact on the trial timeline.”

An individual familiar with the development said researchers had been told the hold was placed on the trial out of “an abundance of caution.” A second individual familiar with the matter, who also spoke on condition of anonymity, said the finding is having an impact on other AstraZeneca vaccine trials underway — as well as on the clinical trials being conducted by other vaccine manufacturers.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 15, 2020, 03:01:23 pm
I have been tracking this virus here and globally since  March and I can tell you this.
There was absolutely no way that Dan and his team should have failed to realise what was going to happen.
They were using poor measurements for a start.
I haven't posted here for a long time and I have littered my FB with stat after stat about this virus, to the stage where it is all I ever post about, so I don't want to do the same thing here :)

But I have serious questions in the way the government has handled this and also how they refuse to provide any meaningful answers when questioned on it.

I heard today (and it is in the road map) that they won't removed restrictions even if they hit targets before the dates mentioned as time is a factor, well I would like to know exactly what sort of factor he means here. His timeline of 14 days is already more than in reasonably required to understand where this virus is at and what the future holds of the coming 2-4 weeks, so what exactly is time above this 14 day period? Either the number is a save number to ease restrictions or it is not.

I am very firmly in the camp that believes we need restrictions and right now need the lockdown. I thought it back in March, I thought it in June etc, so I believe that we should be in the lockdown we are in, but the pathway out... This is a huge crock and not only that, but I think there are severe failings in the modelling used and certainly it sits a fair way outside my own modelling and other modelling I have seen.

But.. on Dan...
If we have to be in stage 4 with 50 cases a day over 14 days (and I think 7 - 10 is more appropriate when measuring) when going down, then surely at around 50 cases per day over the averaging period (and in this case 14 is almost criminally unresponsive when a virus is ascending), then I would like to know why the government didn't act.. and I don't buy that they didn't want to risk the rage of the people, because it was highly predictable where the numbers were going to end up.

Here are just a simple table of stats (and it is even worse when you look at 7 day averages)

Average New Cases per day over previous 14 days.
Jul 04:   50.29
Jul 10: 108.79
Jul 14: 154.36
Jul 17: 200.86
Jul 21: 266.79
July 23 - Mandatory Masks - Melbourne & Mitcham Shire
Jul 25: 307.57
Jul 29: 366.50
Aug 01: 408.50
Aug 02 Stage 4 Melbourne lockdown.

So let's say Dan didn't thinkn we needed harsh lockdowns at 50.. or 100 or 150.. I mean the reality is, they had plenty of time to introduce them and the people of Melbourne are paying a huge price for this.
The impact on the mental health (forget suicides as a figure, look at the people who are developing other mental health issues that could take months or years to recover from)
The impact on those not being tested for possible terminal illnesses etc
The impact on the economy
The impact on students

And now the impact where the community is being punished for longer than it should be, because Dan didn't act.
If Dan had implemented these policies even once we hit 200, the lockdown would not have lasted longer than 6 weeks.
If he implemented at 100, then many hundreds of lives would have been saved.
Even if he implemented stage 3 restrictions sooner, all evidence statistically showed that the numbers were significantly reduced in stage 3, then he would have been able to accurately model our way out of this virus.
By not doing that, he is gun shy and it is insane.
Mandatory masks and stage 3 restrictions should be implemented already by the end of this month.
On October 1, at least with my forecasts suggest that the numbers at that time will be at a level that might be a little too high for stage 2 restrictions, but should be comfortably manageable for stage 3 (with mandatory masks).
In late September or early October, Metro Melbourne should be between 5-15 average cases a day (7 day averaging period) and it is really hard to justify why they can't be in a similar situation to region Victoria, with the requirements of masks still.

Just 2 last things.
1) People are sick of being blamed, but there is almost certainly a reason why the age demographics have the 20-29 age bracket as having the most infections, because they really are more likely to be breaking the rules and so more likely to be spreading it. So there is some truth in the public needing to wear part of the blame for the current situation
2) What are the triggers that will move Victoria back into heaving restrictions once they are eased? Will Dan Andrews fiddle whilst Victoria burns again, or will there be clearly defined cases numbers that are triggered to reintroduce restrictions and lockdowns?


Anyway in the meantime, I hope everyone is staying safe, sticking to the plan and working to help everyone get out of the  lockdowns, then I hope Dan Andrews actually acts in a transparent and logical way and starts to give you all back at least a semblance of your lives in early October.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 15, 2020, 03:11:27 pm
Problem with that analysis is lock downs simply don't work.

That is the indisputable empirical evidence globally.

Irrespective of the efficacy of the contact and quarantining regime - which clearly either wasn't happening or was failing badly when Dopey finally realised the hotel quarantine 'system' had failed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 15, 2020, 03:20:57 pm
Worth a read.

https://mises.org/wire/evidence-keeps-piling-lockdowns-dont-work


All we need to do is (then and now):

1. Have an efficient, quick contact tracing system - not fax based (lunacy) - allowing us to identify & quarantine the 'infected' quickly.
2. Wash hands regularly.
3. Social distance sensibly.
4. Wear a mask if you're sick (or showing symptoms) and need to go out.

5. Oh and HCQ works! c19study.com   (give it early and in the right dosage!)



Game over.

No need to shut down every bloody business in the State.





Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 15, 2020, 04:55:12 pm
One thing is certain.  Anthony Fauci is a dangerous idiot as far as HCQ goes. 


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 15, 2020, 05:12:15 pm
Actually I completely disagree that lockdowns are not effective.
I don't disagree that there are alternative options as well that can be employed, such as mandatory social distancing and masks etc, I also believe that lockdowns come at a considerable cost and this needs to be weighed up against the impact of this costs, not just in financial terms.

But the lockdowns and the previous mandate on masks had very predictable impacts on the new infections seen each day. The data is clearly there to analyse, though I questions who is doing the governments analysis at times.

What worries me more, is that there is a time when lockdowns are the most effective way to get the virus to a manageable level so that allows the economy to restart, but also allows people to live a version of their life that at least resembles normal and there is a time where lockdowns are like cracking a egg with a sledgehammer. This government at the moment seems to have no concept on just how important reaching the stage where people have this semi normal life. Now it might be now as some say, it might be around the 15 cases a day mark that is closer to what I personally believe, but it is almost certainly not the <5 the government is now suggesting.

This number (less than 5 per day) is a number not seen in the state since May 2nd, that can't be the benchmark.
Some areas of regional Victoria have not seen cases in many months, there is no flexibility to the plan of the state government (imo).

I won't comment on hcq so much, other than to say, if this was a proven effective treatment, there would be a number of countries using it regularly. There are no doubt reasons this is not being recommended, so I won't get into any conspiracy theories on such a topic as that does not interest me.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 15, 2020, 05:44:15 pm
Imo Dan is prolonging the lock down primarily because he has no faith in the current Vic health systems and procedures, esp contact tracing. It seems that big efforts are being made to improve the situation, albeit very belatedly, and he is playing for as much time as he can get to allow that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 15, 2020, 06:49:50 pm
Imo Dan is prolonging the lock down primarily because he has no faith in the current Vic health systems and procedures, esp contact tracing. It seems that big efforts are being made to improve the situation, albeit very belatedly, and he is playing for as much time as he can get to allow that.
All the while crippling the economy and destroying livelihoods built over decades.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 15, 2020, 06:55:41 pm
All the while crippling the economy and destroying livelihoods built over decades.
No doubt.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 15, 2020, 08:34:16 pm
I haven't posted here for a long time and I have littered my FB with stat after stat about this virus, to the stage where it is all I ever post about....
I've noticed  :P
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 15, 2020, 08:37:45 pm
I've noticed  :P
:P
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 15, 2020, 08:42:40 pm
I see former Carlton board member Marcus Clarke QC is representing some looney cafe owner who is trying to get Dan's cerfew overturned in the Vic Supreme Court. Good luck Marcus, you'll need it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 15, 2020, 08:53:56 pm
I heard today (and it is in the road map) that they won't removed restrictions even if they hit targets before the dates mentioned as time is a factor, well I would like to know exactly what sort of factor he means here. His timeline of 14 days is already more than in reasonably required to understand where this virus is at and what the future holds of the coming 2-4 weeks, so what exactly is time above this 14 day period? Either the number is a save number to ease restrictions or it is not.

At a guess why time is a factor...
If you are told you can open your resteraunt tomorrow. Can you?
Have you got stock?
Have you got your staff ready?
Have you cleaned your restaurant? (One point has been mentioned that a lot of places have started growing mould over lockdown. That will take time to sort out)
Is there even any stock that you can get? Farmers need to get their act together, trucked to where it needs to get too....are their workers there to take the delivery?

You get my point.

Thats just a guess, and using restaurants as an example.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 15, 2020, 10:48:38 pm
I have been tracking this virus here and globally since  March and I can tell you this.
There was absolutely no way that Dan and his team should have failed to realise what was going to happen.
They were using poor measurements for a start.
I haven't posted here for a long time and I have littered my FB with stat after stat about this virus, to the stage where it is all I ever post about, so I don't want to do the same thing here :)

But I have serious questions in the way the government has handled this and also how they refuse to provide any meaningful answers when questioned on it.

I heard today (and it is in the road map) that they won't removed restrictions even if they hit targets before the dates mentioned as time is a factor, well I would like to know exactly what sort of factor he means here. His timeline of 14 days is already more than in reasonably required to understand where this virus is at and what the future holds of the coming 2-4 weeks, so what exactly is time above this 14 day period? Either the number is a save number to ease restrictions or it is not.

I am very firmly in the camp that believes we need restrictions and right now need the lockdown. I thought it back in March, I thought it in June etc, so I believe that we should be in the lockdown we are in, but the pathway out... This is a huge crock and not only that, but I think there are severe failings in the modelling used and certainly it sits a fair way outside my own modelling and other modelling I have seen.

But.. on Dan...
If we have to be in stage 4 with 50 cases a day over 14 days (and I think 7 - 10 is more appropriate when measuring) when going down, then surely at around 50 cases per day over the averaging period (and in this case 14 is almost criminally unresponsive when a virus is ascending), then I would like to know why the government didn't act.. and I don't buy that they didn't want to risk the rage of the people, because it was highly predictable where the numbers were going to end up.

Here are just a simple table of stats (and it is even worse when you look at 7 day averages)

Average New Cases per day over previous 14 days.
Jul 04:   50.29
Jul 10: 108.79
Jul 14: 154.36
Jul 17: 200.86
Jul 21: 266.79
July 23 - Mandatory Masks - Melbourne & Mitcham Shire
Jul 25: 307.57
Jul 29: 366.50
Aug 01: 408.50
Aug 02 Stage 4 Melbourne lockdown.

So let's say Dan didn't thinkn we needed harsh lockdowns at 50.. or 100 or 150.. I mean the reality is, they had plenty of time to introduce them and the people of Melbourne are paying a huge price for this.
The impact on the mental health (forget suicides as a figure, look at the people who are developing other mental health issues that could take months or years to recover from)
The impact on those not being tested for possible terminal illnesses etc
The impact on the economy
The impact on students

And now the impact where the community is being punished for longer than it should be, because Dan didn't act.
If Dan had implemented these policies even once we hit 200, the lockdown would not have lasted longer than 6 weeks.
If he implemented at 100, then many hundreds of lives would have been saved.
Even if he implemented stage 3 restrictions sooner, all evidence statistically showed that the numbers were significantly reduced in stage 3, then he would have been able to accurately model our way out of this virus.
By not doing that, he is gun shy and it is insane.
Mandatory masks and stage 3 restrictions should be implemented already by the end of this month.
On October 1, at least with my forecasts suggest that the numbers at that time will be at a level that might be a little too high for stage 2 restrictions, but should be comfortably manageable for stage 3 (with mandatory masks).
In late September or early October, Metro Melbourne should be between 5-15 average cases a day (7 day averaging period) and it is really hard to justify why they can't be in a similar situation to region Victoria, with the requirements of masks still.

Just 2 last things.
1) People are sick of being blamed, but there is almost certainly a reason why the age demographics have the 20-29 age bracket as having the most infections, because they really are more likely to be breaking the rules and so more likely to be spreading it. So there is some truth in the public needing to wear part of the blame for the current situation
2) What are the triggers that will move Victoria back into heaving restrictions once they are eased? Will Dan Andrews fiddle whilst Victoria burns again, or will there be clearly defined cases numbers that are triggered to reintroduce restrictions and lockdowns?


Anyway in the meantime, I hope everyone is staying safe, sticking to the plan and working to help everyone get out of the  lockdowns, then I hope Dan Andrews actually acts in a transparent and logical way and starts to give you all back at least a semblance of your lives in early October.




Hi mio.

Long time.  I largely agree with a lot of what you've written.   Can I ask why you have opted for 7 or 10 days vs 14?

Its hard to disagree with what you've written.   I think we ran out of the first lockdown too fast and paid for it.  We eased 3 times in 3 weeks with 7 days as the target, and it went backwards.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 15, 2020, 11:03:21 pm
Hi mio.

Long time.  I largely agree with a lot of what you've written.   Can I ask why you have opted for 7 or 10 days vs 14?

Its hard to disagree with what you've written.   I think we ran out of the first lockdown too fast and paid for it.  We eased 3 times in 3 weeks with 7 days as the target, and it went backwards.


G'day Thry.
I come to the 7-10 day timeframe because it was the timeframe that allowed me most consistently predict trends in an accurate manner, whilst also keeping the data relevant.
I have put every countries daily data into a database, along with their population sizes etc and I ran models using  3-12 days trends, I found 7 was pretty much my sweet spot, of course the change even in the 7 day trend doesn't become apparent until around 14 or so days after a change to restrictions has been made and this is due to incubation periods, testing and reporting times etc.

14 days fails on the way up and the way down, on the way up, it does not come close to providing you with data in a timely manner (just as a small example we hit 50 cases over 7 days as an average a full 4 days before we hit that same average over 14 days). The problem is you are always making decisions long after you should have trended the data.
On the way down, it is the opposite effect. Knowing that we already know the data 10 days after a date (or approximately the data) off 7 days previous data, it makes no sense to "hang on" to data that is so far out of date.
For example the data across the previous 7 days is showing about a 20% drop compared to the last 14.

So on the way up and on the way down, it doesn't keep pace with the changes in the spread of the virus well enough for my liking and at times can really misrepresent the situation, but most dramatically, this is in the ascendancy

Obviously I am not an epidemiologist, but I just treated these stats the way I always treated stats and looked at this purely from a numbers perspective.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on September 15, 2020, 11:54:16 pm
I see former Carlton board member Marcus Clarke QC is representing some looney cafe owner who is trying to get Dan's cerfew overturned in the Vic Supreme Court. Good luck Marcus, you'll need it.

Political stunt? She is trying for Liberal pre-selection...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 16, 2020, 07:30:51 am
Political stunt? She is trying for Liberal pre-selection...
There you go
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 16, 2020, 09:39:59 am
G'day Thry.
I come to the 7-10 day timeframe because it was the timeframe that allowed me most consistently predict trends in an accurate manner, whilst also keeping the data relevant.
I have put every countries daily data into a database, along with their population sizes etc and I ran models using  3-12 days trends, I found 7 was pretty much my sweet spot, of course the change even in the 7 day trend doesn't become apparent until around 14 or so days after a change to restrictions has been made and this is due to incubation periods, testing and reporting times etc.

14 days fails on the way up and the way down, on the way up, it does not come close to providing you with data in a timely manner (just as a small example we hit 50 cases over 7 days as an average a full 4 days before we hit that same average over 14 days). The problem is you are always making decisions long after you should have trended the data.
On the way down, it is the opposite effect. Knowing that we already know the data 10 days after a date (or approximately the data) off 7 days previous data, it makes no sense to "hang on" to data that is so far out of date.
For example the data across the previous 7 days is showing about a 20% drop compared to the last 14.

So on the way up and on the way down, it doesn't keep pace with the changes in the spread of the virus well enough for my liking and at times can really misrepresent the situation, but most dramatically, this is in the ascendancy

Obviously I am not an epidemiologist, but I just treated these stats the way I always treated stats and looked at this purely from a numbers perspective.

Thats fair enough.

The only thing I can really hang my hat on, is that sometimes we just dont have the same access to information that these guys tend to.

Ive noted we are on average 3 days behind, simply based on what they are doing, and then what happens.  It may not be accurated, but I seem to think that the decisions we see today are discussions had a few days ago, and the recent easing of restrictions in regional Victoria speak for that I think.

My only guess is that its a big hulking machine full of inefficiencies and quite likely a lot of indecision with respect to why and how we do things, and one of the things that we dont have to consider is trying to get a population of people to actually go along with the recommendations.

The one thing I think we can all agree on, is that the current state of play didnt come with a play book, and for the most part, there has been a lot of reasonable decision making, with a few bone head decisions along the way.  Thing is, when they go wrong they go really wrong.  A lot our general public take it quite personally when Dad says that there are people doing the wrong thing.  They shouldnt.  The people doing the wrong thing, are those that are simply going about their business like there is nothing going on.

I know of someone who has symptoms and is refusing to get tested.  They are a hayfever sufferer, but it just comes across as selfish to me.  All they are going to recommend after testing is to isolate if positive, and if negative give you the all clear.  The reasoning:  Too many false negatives and positives.  Its akin to sticking your head in the sand.

Makes me really angry.  Whether or not you believe there is a pandemic, it's a logical fallousy to potentially get said virus and then walk around with scant regard because you dont want to, when there will be no real consequence either way because you want to thumb your nose at "the system". 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 16, 2020, 10:24:26 am
The reason HCQ isn't proven to work is that the retrospective studies ignore why people are on HCQ in the first place.

It is the retrospective nature of the study that is the problem, most of the people in the study are identified from a list of survivors after the fact. They are generally already on HCQ because they are being treated for arthritis or rheumatic diseases, and they are also on a bunch of other drugs at the same time. You could easily look for a coincident illness that cures COVID and find arthritis is the miracle cure, or it could mean people who are already on HCQ are more attentive to their own health and as such act sooner when infected by COVID. ;)

Picking HCQ out of that mix is as a retrospective data analysis is a study analysis flaw known as "The Theory Dependence of Observations". That is if a study is started and designed with a specific theory, idea or hypothesis in mind, in other words an assumption, that is exactly what you find.

Worse still, in some cases the incentive to publish such a finding can be lucrative, so you find some of the people publishing these retrospective theories are not even experts but paid commentators in unaligned or loosely aligned disciplines. The tell for the experienced is that when you delve into the papers, if they are genuine papers, you find it's a repeat of the same discredited data, given a new wrapper and re-gifted!

To do a genuine study of HCQ, you have to take a large number of people like the vaccine trial, thousands of people some infected, some who were infected and some who have never been infected, all of them with an unknown current state of health or infection, give them HCQ then study the outcome as some of that population get COVID infections / reinfections naturally. It's a study that takes many many months or even years to complete, just like the vaccine trials. It is happening as I type, but the results are months and months away, and any claims to knowing a specific outcome are just dice throws by the willingly uninformed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 16, 2020, 11:54:32 am
The reason HCQ isn't proven to work is that the retrospective studies ignore why people are on HCQ in the first place.

It is the retrospective nature of the study that is the problem, most of the people in the study are identified from a list of survivors after the fact. They are generally already on HCQ because they are being treated for arthritis or rheumatic diseases, and they are also on a bunch of other drugs at the same time. You could easily look for a coincident illness that cures COVID and find arthritis is the miracle cure, or it could mean people who are already on HCQ are more attentive to their own health and as such act sooner when infected by COVID. ;)

Picking HCQ out of that mix is as a retrospective data analysis is a study analysis flaw known as "The Theory Dependence of Observations". That is if a study is started and designed with a specific theory, idea or hypothesis in mind, in other words an assumption, that is exactly what you find.

Worse still, in some cases the incentive to publish such a finding can be lucrative, so you find some of the people publishing these retrospective theories are not even experts but paid commentators in unaligned or loosely aligned disciplines. The tell for the experienced is that when you delve into the papers, if they are genuine papers, you find it's a repeat of the same discredited data, given a new wrapper and re-gifted!

To do a genuine study of HCQ, you have to take a large number of people like the vaccine trial, thousands of people some infected, some who were infected and some who have never been infected, all of them with an unknown current state of health or infection, give them HCQ then study the outcome as some of that population get COVID infections / reinfections naturally. It's a study that takes many many months or even years to complete, just like the vaccine trials. It is happening as I type, but the results are months and months away, and any claims to knowing a specific outcome are just dice throws by the willingly uninformed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxychloroquine

Reading through that tells me a lot about its viability.  Its neither a long term solution, nor a preventative, but something that will assist with healing once you are infected.  Thats fine but its not a reason of itself to disregard what we think is a bit more dangerous than the flu.

The whole point of the exercise we are currently undertaking is prevention is better than cure.  Ironically, the people most in the for HCQ are in the camp of cure is better than prevention because the data they quote come from an anti vax stand point.  Admittedly, I am in no hurry for any CV19 vaccine, but what I can understand is the following arguments:

1.  Its fundamentally a philosophical difference, with flaky data to support the opinion that it will be a magic bullet to explain why COVID isnt that big a deal.

2.  IF we let COVID out to do its thing, the people who support HCQ might find that its viability reduces the more we have to go down that road, and like you state, no real clinical study points to it being useful.

3. Based on Wiki (note, source is not biased, it simply tells you about things) states that the side effects and long term effects of using HCQ might yield worse results than getting CV19 anyway.

Attempting to put the breaks on an infectious disease spreading makes a lot of sense.  The way I see this at the moment, is that we have a bit of a seasaw going on.  The lockdowns are fine, but we cant stay in them forever and hide from the virus.  Once we get things down to a level where our health systems can cope with minute rises in infection and obtain the best outcomes possible for all those being treated without coming under undue strain, and still being able to deal with the regular flow of patients, we need to find a way to achieve a semblance of normality without all the lock downs IMHO. 

Its just not sustainable economically or socially.  Look at the impact its having on food supplies with a shortage of rice come christmas.  Thats not alarming in itself, but a lot of the systems that produce the things that keep our society going are able to be put on hold temporarily, but not indefinately.  To a degree that means "re-imagining" things to prevent the infection risks in these industries to enable a new normal to be found.

People need to get used to the idea that things are never going back to the way they were.

When it comes down to it, COVID is looking like a fairly mundane pandemic and I for one am thankful for that, but that doesnt mean we wont face another one, and with each new one that occurs we are one step closer to a new "black death" that will cause a lot of issues, and we really need to understand how bad this is quickly because the biggest issue with the current approach is that people are losing faith in the ability of those running the show to make good decisions and thats when things start becoming very dangerous particularly if the next pandemic is a doozy and happens quickly.  That also means, we need to start planning for a future state where a pandemic doesnt mean lock downs and a massive change to how we do things which will cause social and economic chaos.  The death of the big city is just the beginning of this.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 16, 2020, 12:58:29 pm
Attempting to put the breaks on an infectious disease spreading makes a lot of sense.  The way I see this at the moment, is that we have a bit of a seasaw going on.  The lockdowns are fine, but we cant stay in them forever and hide from the virus.  Once we get things down to a level where our health systems can cope with minute rises in infection and obtain the best outcomes possible for all those being treated without coming under undue strain, and still being able to deal with the regular flow of patients, we need to find a way to achieve a semblance of normality without all the lock downs IMHO. 

Its just not sustainable economically or socially.  Look at the impact its having on food supplies with a shortage of rice come christmas.  Thats not alarming in itself, but a lot of the systems that produce the things that keep our society going are able to be put on hold temporarily, but not indefinately.  To a degree that means "re-imagining" things to prevent the infection risks in these industries to enable a new normal to be found.
Absolutely agree @Thryleon

The problem I have, and why I rally against the rubbish being spread about COVID, cures and conspiracies, is that those acts are what will make the situation unmanageable.

There is some irony in having cranks claim the lockdown doesn't work, lockdown does more damage and claiming political or bureaucratic mismanagement, when it is the cranks that are the primary source of disquiet, disruption and damage. Sure there may be things that could have been done better, in every endeavour that is true which is why studying history is so valuable, but decisions can't be truly definitive because the cranks make for a shifting landscape more than the virus, they actively work against the control and cure!

There are many parallels for HCQ, political and social conspiracies in the Spanish Flu pandemic, snake oils and distractions sold by both cranks and officials, all offering learning that is currently ignored by many for the sake of short term social or political gain.

If we all went along quietly and complied to the lockdown, it would have been over weeks and weeks ago as they would have quickly regained control! It is the Karens and Coreys that are the cause of the sustained lockdown, they are not the cure for it!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 18, 2020, 01:19:52 pm
Narre Warren/Fountain gate is apparently the new covid hotspot with 9 active cases lol. Dictator Dan needs to go.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 18, 2020, 02:17:22 pm
Narre Warren/Fountain gate is apparently the new covid hotspot with 9 active cases lol. Dictator Dan needs to go.

He allowed infected people to socialise in fountain gate did he?

Sack HIM!

 ::)

Now, i don't want to tar everyone with the same brush, but Nazza Wazza is far from the most law abiding area and its highly likely that this is due to people, again, not following the rules.

If these 9 people have come in contact with 2 others each and those others came into contact with 2 others etc.

This time next week there will be 576 cases from that 'hotspot' you are currently mocking. In 1 week!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 18, 2020, 03:07:42 pm
The good people of Narre Warren, Hoppers Crossing or Toorak where one of the original "clusters" started are not at fault for this virus.

Blaming the 0.001% of the population for his own governmnent's shortfalls is despicable.

We can't stay in lockdown forever.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 18, 2020, 03:16:58 pm
The good people of Narre Warren, Hoppers Crossing or Toorak where one of the original "clusters" started are not at fault for this virus.

Blaming the 0.001% of the population for his own governmnent's shortfalls is despicable.

We can't stay in lockdown forever.

Pretty sure Dan Andrews isn't responsible for the virus either.

If that area was one of the original clusters, it should've died down months ago. Why is it still continuiung? Must be Dans fault.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 18, 2020, 03:27:16 pm
Dictator Dan was too busy stopping people like my widowed mother from seeing her grandkids that he lost focus on his main task of making sure people who actually had the virus were quarantined. Now hundreds of people have died because of his failures.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 18, 2020, 04:58:38 pm
Dictator Dan was too busy stopping people like my widowed mother from seeing her grandkids that he lost focus on his main task of making sure people who actually had the virus were quarantined. Now hundreds of people have died because of his failures.

While it is really unfortunate people have died, the fact it is only hundreds is due to lockdowns.

You wanna talk about a Dictator, look at Dictator Donald.
That is what you get from ineptness.

Take the emotion out of it, Dan Andrews has done better than 99% of the world in dealing with this.....despite a very vocal minority refusing to do as their told.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 18, 2020, 04:59:33 pm
Pretty sure Dan Andrews isn't responsible for the virus either.

If that area was one of the original clusters, it should've died down months ago. Why is it still continuiung? Must be Dans fault.

Irrelevant.

Every case since June is sourced out of the hotel quarantine disaster (and the ongoing contact tracing shambles).

Were the individuals doing the wrong thing? Darn right.

Does any of that absolve Dan (and Mikakos + DHHS folk) from taking responsibility for the greatest public health failure in Australian history?

That's simply the way the game plays out.

Heads must roll and the bigger the f... up, the bigger the scalp(s).

There is no bigger (a f... up) than this one - and Dopey knows it (that's why he insists on rambling at us day in day out).

He seeks absolution.

No chance.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 18, 2020, 05:02:35 pm
2 wrongs don't make a right.

Sacking Dan is wrong.

Any contrary argument is rife with emotion and short on logic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 18, 2020, 05:10:34 pm
Okay Kruddler just like the Hawks winning flags while we win spoons it must just be just bad luck we are the covid capital of Australia.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 18, 2020, 06:51:01 pm
Okay Kruddler just like the Hawks winning flags while we win spoons it must just be just bad luck we are the covid capital of Australia.
Again, emotion and no logic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 18, 2020, 06:59:40 pm

Every case since June is sourced out of the hotel quarantine disaster (and the ongoing contact tracing shambles).

EOS, case closed, clear your desk and don't come Monday.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 18, 2020, 07:27:22 pm
Holy mackerel... hey, K, you're on a hiding to nothing when the lynch mob need a scapegoat.

Guess what? Once you've sacrificed the scapegoat, there's no magic and a week later you feel exactly the same, in a nutshell... fck all happens!

I'm no wrap for Dan, believe me, and I'm still confused as to why he didn't jump on the lockdown once the 2nd wave hit a 100 - that question needs to be answered.

He trusted certain people (yet to be named) to get a certain tasks accomplished and they failed... whoever, 'they' are, plus the private security companies were as useful as perforated frangers.

And if Dan did refuse ADF help, then he is in strife. He may fall on his sword once everything is under control anyway.

BUT to level all blame at the feet of one person lets so many others off the hook. And wanting Dan's head on a platter is nothing more than sanitized vengeance...  just in case you don't like the term, 'scapegoating' (which humans are brilliant at).

Hotspot at Narre Warren! Now there's a surprise. Reality is that we do have c0ckheads in our community who will fck it up for the rest of us. As I mentioned previously, to look squarely at the second wave with logic only... 90% of international flights through Melbourne + c0ckhead security companies/motels = disaster just waiting to happen. Whichever capital city in this fair land of ours drew the short straw and got the bulk of international flight would have very likely gone through exactly the same shyte that we found ourselves in here in VIC.

If we wind out the lens, and look at this globally, this country has done a bloody good job. Champion job. Better than most. BUT, we sure will do things better next time, many lesson learned. Oh, and by the way, this pandemic was predicted by a number of epidemiologists who also outlined strategies for handling the pandemic... governments ignored the advice, all governments.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 18, 2020, 07:45:20 pm
EOS, case closed, clear your desk and don't come Monday.

Maybe we should let flyboy run the joint?

There's been so much talk about 'Mystery cases' and not knowing who got it from where. Thats not an issue for our man flyboy. He makes it up to suit his side of the argument and you buy it as fact.

Now where is my pitchfork.....
 ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 18, 2020, 07:49:44 pm
Holy mackerel... hey, K, you're on a hiding to nothing when the lynch mob need a scapegoat.

Guess what? Once you've sacrificed the scapegoat, there's no magic and a week later you feel exactly the same, in a nutshell... fck all happens!

Don't talk logic, they want BLOOD!!!!!   >:(  >:(  >:D

Logic is irrelevant.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 18, 2020, 08:46:32 pm
Holy mackerel... hey, K, you're on a hiding to nothing when the lynch mob need a scapegoat.

Guess what? Once you've sacrificed the scapegoat, there's no magic and a week later you feel exactly the same, in a nutshell... fck all happens!

I'm no wrap for Dan, believe me, and I'm still confused as to why he didn't jump on the lockdown once the 2nd wave hit a 100 - that question needs to be answered.

He trusted certain people (yet to be named) to get a certain tasks accomplished and they failed... whoever, 'they' are, plus the private security companies were as useful as perforated frangers.

And if Dan did refuse ADF help, then he is in strife. He may fall on his sword once everything is under control anyway.

BUT to level all blame at the feet of one person lets so many others off the hook. And wanting Dan's head on a platter is nothing more than sanitized vengeance...  just in case you don't like the term, 'scapegoating' (which humans are brilliant at).

Hotspot at Narre Warren! Now there's a surprise. Reality is that we do have c0ckheads in our community who will fck it up for the rest of us. As I mentioned previously, to look squarely at the second wave with logic only... 90% of international flights through Melbourne + c0ckhead security companies/motels = disaster just waiting to happen. Whichever capital city in this fair land of ours drew the short straw and got the bulk of international flight would have very likely gone through exactly the same shyte that we found ourselves in here in VIC.

If we wind out the lens, and look at this globally, this country has done a bloody good job. Champion job. Better than most. BUT, we sure will do things better next time, many lesson learned. Oh, and by the way, this pandemic was predicted by a number of epidemiologists who also outlined strategies for handling the pandemic... governments ignored the advice, all governments.

Love your detail Baggers, but totally IRRELEVANT.

Dan runs THE SHOW.

Any  other states have a massive disaster that lead to 100s of old folk dying? And f...d 1000s of small businesses?

Get back to me.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 18, 2020, 08:47:21 pm
Don't talk logic, they want BLOOD!!!!!   >:(  >:(  >:D

Logic is irrelevant.
No, not blood, just accountability.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on September 19, 2020, 10:39:57 am
No, not blood, just accountability.

No different than the CEO's of large companies taking the fall. Rio, AMP Westpac to name a few.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 19, 2020, 10:44:57 am
No different than the CEO's of large companies taking the fall. Rio, AMP Westpac to name a few.
CEO's get massive Golden handshakes / parachutes, when they run away from the long term damage their short term windfall strategy delivers, do you want that too for politicians? God Save America!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 19, 2020, 10:59:12 am
Love your detail Baggers, but totally IRRELEVANT.

Dan runs THE SHOW.

Any  other states have a massive disaster that lead to 100s of old folk dying? And f...d 1000s of small businesses?

Get back to me.

I'm more than happy to agree to disagree. I get your viewpoint, I simply do not agree with simplistic accusations.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 19, 2020, 01:20:00 pm
This mornings Bill passed leaves a bit to be desired.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on September 19, 2020, 01:47:09 pm
CEO's get massive Golden handshakes / parachutes, when they run away from the long term damage their short term windfall strategy delivers, do you want that too for politicians? God Save America!

I couldn't care what they get, the concept of responsibility and accountability doesn't change because of a corp payout or parliamentary pensions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 19, 2020, 02:01:14 pm
This mornings Bill passed leaves a bit to be desired.

They have absolutely lost the plot.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 19, 2020, 02:17:37 pm
Speaking of losing the plot,..Gary Ablett senior has decided to give us his opinion on the state of the world.

“We’re talking about the Illuminati, Freemasonry fraternities, secret society people who are behind all this. It’s been going on now since the plans all started with the Illuminati way back in 1776,” the Geelong great said.
“They’ve been working on this for a long time to bring in the new world order. They’re all globalists wanting a new world order so they can put Lucifer on the throne of the world.

“This virus was deliberately made and designed, and deliberately released by these people because they’re using it as camouflage for their many globalist agendas, including the main one to crash the global economy.

“They’re desperate to crash the global economy because they want to bring in a new global digital currency, cashless society that will lead to the mark of the beast which is revealed in Revelations.

“The Illuminati’s goal is also to reduce to the population of the world to 500 million … because 7.7 billion people are too hard to control.

“If you do your studying, the vaccines they’re planning to give us are very harmful to us and will kill us. And that’s what they’re trying to do, they want to wipe out a huge portion of the population.”
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 19, 2020, 02:19:32 pm
Speaking of losing he plot,..Gary Ablett senior has decided to give us his opinion on the state of the world.

“We’re talking about the Illuminati, Freemasonry fraternities, secret society people who are behind all this. It’s been going on now since the plans all started with the Illuminati way back in 1776,” the Geelong great said.
“They’ve been working on this for a long time to bring in the new world order. They’re all globalists wanting a new world order so they can put Lucifer on the throne of the world.

“This virus was deliberately made and designed, and deliberately released by these people because they’re using it as camouflage for their many globalist agendas, including the main one to crash the global economy.

“They’re desperate to crash the global economy because they want to bring in a new global digital currency, cashless society that will lead to the mark of the beast which is revealed in Revelations.

“The Illuminati’s goal is also to reduce to the population of the world to 500 million … because 7.7 billion people are too hard to control.

“If you do your studying, the vaccines they’re planning to give us are very harmful to us and will kill us. And that’s what they’re trying to do, they want to wipe out a huge portion of the population.”
Years of chemical abuse will do that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on September 19, 2020, 02:21:50 pm
Don't get me started on that piece of crap.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 19, 2020, 02:23:02 pm
Don't get me started on that piece of crap.
If you are referring to the one they call God, just a grub of a human.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on September 19, 2020, 02:28:04 pm
Years of chemical abuse will do that.

And terrible, possibly non existent, Biblical scholarship.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 19, 2020, 02:33:56 pm
Narre Warren/Fountain gate is apparently the new covid hotspot with 9 active cases lol. Dictator Dan needs to go.

Don't let the facts get in the way of your conspiracy theory MBB.
Quote
COVID CLUSTER: Health authorities have identified a 34-case cluster across five households in Melbourne's outer southeast.
Contact tracers found members of these households have continued to visit each other during restrictions -- even travelling beyond 5km.
"Hopefully, this is a really, really strong reminder... The rules are there for a reason and if they are not followed, then it makes the job that we are all doing that much harder," Premier Daniel Andrews said.
People living in the Casey and Dandenong area --particularly people who have been to the Fountain Gate shopping centre and have any symptoms -- are being urged to get tested.

It's all Dans fault. The message of 'stay home' is clearly too hard for people to comprehend.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 19, 2020, 02:35:21 pm
If you are referring to the one they call God, just a grub of a human.
x2 Hard to swallow that rubbish he wrote given what he has to answer for..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on September 19, 2020, 02:40:26 pm
Yep
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 19, 2020, 02:49:28 pm
Don't let the facts get in the way of your conspiracy theory MBB.
It's all Dans fault. The message of 'stay home' is clearly too hard for people to comprehend.

9 in Narre Warren. Casey has like 350,000 people. Dandenong is not part of Casey.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 19, 2020, 04:36:36 pm
9 in Narre Warren. Casey has like 350,000 people. Dandenong is not part of Casey.
They were your words.

Fountain gate was mentioned by both.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 19, 2020, 05:17:24 pm
Speaking of losing the plot,..Gary Ablett senior has decided to give us his opinion on the state of the world.

“We’re talking about the Illuminati, Freemasonry fraternities, secret society people who are behind all this. It’s been going on now since the plans all started with the Illuminati way back in 1776,” the Geelong great said.
“They’ve been working on this for a long time to bring in the new world order. They’re all globalists wanting a new world order so they can put Lucifer on the throne of the world.

“This virus was deliberately made and designed, and deliberately released by these people because they’re using it as camouflage for their many globalist agendas, including the main one to crash the global economy.

“They’re desperate to crash the global economy because they want to bring in a new global digital currency, cashless society that will lead to the mark of the beast which is revealed in Revelations.

“The Illuminati’s goal is also to reduce to the population of the world to 500 million … because 7.7 billion people are too hard to control.

“If you do your studying, the vaccines they’re planning to give us are very harmful to us and will kill us. And that’s what they’re trying to do, they want to wipe out a huge portion of the population.”

Well, he got one thing right... Lucifer, dyed orange, is on his throne!

Poor bugger. Been watching David Icke I suspect and slipping into too much ice. Deadly combo!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 19, 2020, 05:48:39 pm
They were your words.

Fountain gate was mentioned by both.

Fountain gate is a shopping centre in Narre warren.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 19, 2020, 07:20:54 pm
Fountain gate is a shopping centre in Narre warren.

lol....i know. We are going around in circles.
i give up.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 21, 2020, 04:46:19 pm
Take the emotion out of it, Dan Andrews has done better than 99% of the world in dealing with this.....despite a very vocal minority refusing to do as their told.

If you are talking wave 1. I agree
But the 2nd wave has been rife with mishandling and (early on in it) mixed messages.

The hotel bungle should never have occurred
The tracing methodology was substandard despite the lead time we had before the 2nd wave.
The lock downs should have occurred earlier, knowing that the data for the next 10-14 days is almost already predetermined, there is no justification whatsoever for taking so long to act.
The lessons learned from the introduction of restrictions does not seem to have been quantified.
The statistics used seems flawed.

Dan has failed Victoria in this 2nd wave.
His governments decisions making directly impacted the livelihoods of the entire states population.
Not just in the hotel bungle, but in the other methods, in the tracing, in the failing to act quickly enough.
I done some stats about 1 month ago, but I will probably need to do them again, but if Dan acted even 3 weeks earlier, we would have been in lockdown for a considerably shorter period of time and many of those that died would still be alive now.

You mention in another post that calls for Dan to be axed are irrational/emotional, but when your decision making directly costs people their life, you have blood on your hands and I think it is quite reasonable and logical for there to be serious questions about your fitness to govern.

Also, considering there is a mountain of evidence suggesting that the previous level of restrictions had a considerable impact on the virus and it's spread, it is interesting to note that we need less than 70 cases in a fortnight to go to similar levels of restrictions, but we had more than 2100 cases in the week leading up to the the implementation of mandatory masks.

From early July until July 23rd, it would be fair to compare Dan to the oft quoted saying about Nero.

Quite aside from this and I am almost apolitical when it comes to Australian politics, but it is not emotional or irrational to questions a leader when they bypass the political systems and oversight. It is reasonable to expect that your voice is being heard in parliament through your locally elected member. By constantly closing parliament Dan has taken away people's right to be represented and that is not acceptable. Absolutely there can be times where you want their entire endeavours to be dedicated to the virus, this goes without saying, but there has to be full accountability and if parliament was to be shutdown, it should have been for weeks at the most and they should have implemented remote distance parliament to ensure this representation, oversight and accountability. I don't like either side playing politics when lives are at stake, but there has to be accountability.

That reason alone, should be enough reason for people to at least question whether or not Dan is fit for the job. It might be that you conclude that he is after that, but it is not unreasonable to have a dissenting view
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on September 21, 2020, 06:32:51 pm
Dan ain't perfect,  far from it,  but would the old Liberal mates cabal have done anything better?  I shudder at the thought of oBrien being the front man for that pack of utter bastards.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 21, 2020, 06:48:39 pm
Dan ain't perfect,  far from it,  but would the old Liberal mates cabal have done anything better?  I shudder at the thought of oBrien being the front man for that pack of utter bastards.

Well it is an unknown.. Certainly a liberal premier is managing NSW so far successfully after early bungling.
And she is handling it much better than Dan has managed Victoria, I don't think this virus is impacted by which side of the political spectrum the state leader is.
I have no love for O'Brien either and really who would want to be a premier at this stage?, So Dan has one hell of a hard job.
And as I stated before, I agree with the need for lockdowns today.

But the questions about Dan are not the hypothetical questions such as whether O'Brien would have done better, but questions such as..
Has Dan done a good job?
Have his governments mistakes cost lives? How many
Have his governments management saved lives? How many
Is he going to impact lives and businesses beyond what is required?
Does he have a firm grasp on what is required to manage the virus?
Is he able to strike the balance that provides people with relief, but contains this virus?
Is the level of visibility into errors made satisfactory?
Is the level of insight of the decision making satisfactory?

If you are satisfied with these questions or your own then that is reasonable.
Personally I am not

Btw during the first wave, I applauded him and stated that his efforts were world leading.
This wasn't just a flippant comment, I compared Victoria's numbers with those of countries with a population above 5 million from a statistical point of view (excluding some because of problems with nature of testing or reporting in the country) and I meant he really was World Leading.
In early July I also said elsewhere that I back him to bring us out of this, he deserved that right even if the government mishandled quarantine and let it back into the public.
So I am certainly not a Dan hater personally. I just am very upset at what I consider that actual mishandling this 2nd wave, especially after having so much confidence in his ability to do so.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 21, 2020, 06:56:08 pm
@mateinone
re 2nd wave....
Yes, in hindsight he did act too slow.....in hindsight.
But relative to the rest of the world, he is still ahead of schedule.

Of course there are simple reasons why he acted slow.....people were already b!tching and moaning about lockdowns and how we went into them too fast etc etc.
Damned if he does, damned if he didn't.

NOW people are b!tching about staying in them too long. Which i get. But playing devils advocate, he doesn't want to go through all this BS again, so he's trying to kill it within an inch of its life and be done with it for good.

Yes, its possible to do that and come out of lockdown.
Yes, its possible to do that earlier
etc
etc

But, he's over it, we're over it. He's taking things to the nth degree so we can all move on with life.
Is it perfect? No.
Does it reduce the chance of this thing coming back to bite him in the butt? Yes.
Is he copping some flack over it? Yes. Should he? Probably.
Hotel quarantine aside, i give him a B+.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 21, 2020, 09:25:36 pm
@mateinone
re 2nd wave....
Yes, in hindsight he did act too slow.....in hindsight.
But relative to the rest of the world, he is still ahead of schedule.

Of course there are simple reasons why he acted slow.....people were already b!tching and moaning about lockdowns and how we went into them too fast etc etc.
Damned if he does, damned if he didn't.

NOW people are b!tching about staying in them too long. Which i get. But playing devils advocate, he doesn't want to go through all this BS again, so he's trying to kill it within an inch of its life and be done with it for good.

Yes, its possible to do that and come out of lockdown.
Yes, its possible to do that earlier
etc
etc

But, he's over it, we're over it. He's taking things to the nth degree so we can all move on with life.
Is it perfect? No.
Does it reduce the chance of this thing coming back to bite him in the butt? Yes.
Is he copping some flack over it? Yes. Should he? Probably.
Hotel quarantine aside, i give him a B+.

A much more balanced view than some previous posts. As far as a mark goes, initial handling, 8/10. hotel quarantine, 2/10.
So its a pass (just) from me, many people have died that shouldn't have though, thats the problem here. As for the remedial action he has taken, thats hurt financially but he had no choice I guess. I am fortunate, I can afford to state home and not work if I had to, many are less fortunate and they are who I feel sorry for (as well as those who have lost loved ones and not able to say goodbye to).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 22, 2020, 08:35:06 am
You know why Dan didn't jump into the next stage of lockdown straight away? Because of the backlash he was receiving from the public. People were angry. They were scared. Businesses would crumble.

He waited, he hoped, he prayed. BUT, we didn't listen and the numbers kept going the wrong way.

So he was too lenient, for our benefit.


Now, he is deemed as being too harsh.....again for our benefit as we don't listen.

He is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.

Sorry K, but leaders, real leaders do what is best for the community at large, when it needs doing. Real leaders know that their decisions can sometimes make people angry and worry, but they don't 'hope' and 'pray', they still act when they KNOW their actions are in the best interest of their people... they KNOW it aint a popularity contest. He did it the first time, to his credit, his failure to do it a 2nd time, when it needed to be done, needs from him a better explanation than anything we have received thus far.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 22, 2020, 08:38:57 am
Sorry K, but leaders, real leaders do what is best for the community at large, when it needs doing. Real leaders know that their decisions can sometimes make people angry and worry, but they don't 'hope' and 'pray', they still act when they KNOW their actions are in the best interest of their people... they KNOW it aint a popularity contest. He did it the first time, to his credit, his failure to do it a 2nd time, when it needed to be done, needs from him a better explanation than anything we have received thus far.
Thats fine but I see lots of people calling him Despot Dan.

Thing is, his recent Bill is very disturbing and is IMHO the worst infringement of Democratic rights I have seen in my lifetime.

Imagine being found guilty and not getting your day in Court?

Very very disturbing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 22, 2020, 08:57:10 am
We had the toughest restrictions in the country. We all followed them (except the BLM protesters), basically were as close go virus free as the other states then his government let the virus back in
Then the prick had the gall to blame all of us.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 22, 2020, 09:01:37 am
@mateinone
re 2nd wave....
Yes, in hindsight he did act too slow.....in hindsight.
But relative to the rest of the world, he is still ahead of schedule.

Of course there are simple reasons why he acted slow.....people were already b!tching and moaning about lockdowns and how we went into them too fast etc etc.
Damned if he does, damned if he didn't.

NOW people are b!tching about staying in them too long. Which i get. But playing devils advocate, he doesn't want to go through all this BS again, so he's trying to kill it within an inch of its life and be done with it for good.

Yes, its possible to do that and come out of lockdown.
Yes, its possible to do that earlier
etc
etc

But, he's over it, we're over it. He's taking things to the nth degree so we can all move on with life.
Is it perfect? No.
Does it reduce the chance of this thing coming back to bite him in the butt? Yes.
Is he copping some flack over it? Yes. Should he? Probably.
Hotel quarantine aside, i give him a B+.


In hindsight?
Even I was able to often run reasonably close simulations through the use of some pretty elementary programming and statistics and I believed as early as June 30 this outbreak was likely to be much worse than the first wave, that the signs were that a lockdown was pretty much inevitable. Now that is not because I had some secret oracle, or I have some ridiculous gift with numbers, others were publishing similar predictions, we all differed and some by wider margins, but most I looked at were suggesting the path was grim without serious action.

Dan has epidemiologists, teams of statisticians, other medical experts, connections into global resources etc... and he needed hindsight to take the first REALLY SUBSTANTIAL action against the virus earlier than late July?
If Dan has the wrong people working for him, then that his his failure also.
I certainly don't understand how he gets a B+ for his response times?

I am in the middle of rebuilding a modelling tool to determine how many people were likely directly impacted by Dan's inaction and what the differences would be if he had brought forward action plans.

I wont go into a detailed a prediction just yet, because I am not happy completely convinced I have the right model in place, but at this early stage the numbers look like they could be around 10,000 infections could have been avoided by bringing in level 3 two weeks earlier.

If it is 10,000 (or thereabouts) is that an acceptable number because Dan didn't want to frustrate people with a lockdown, which he should have been aware was absolutely going to be required.

The other thing that bringing in level 3 restrictions earlier would have done, was provided a longer framework to analyze the impact of those restrictions compared to level 4 and this could be a reason the government is loathe to go back to level  3 now, but this is idiotic, because the signs were showing significant reductions in new infections during the expected time frame after these restrictions were introduced

Of course he gets a clap for eventually moving to level 4 and even for refusing to bow to pressure, I agree level 4  has absolutely been required, When he announced 6 weeks, a friend asked my opinion and I said, 6 weeks is only a line in the sand it absolutely won't be enough so brace for longer.. So I am not asking Dan to come out and remove the quarantine today, I think it is important that it is in place, but his pathway out....
Do you rank the roadmap out a B+?
You are happy with the Melbourne Uni modelling?
You are happy with the explanation of the 14 day period?
You are happy to trust he is not depriving people of their liberties for longer than they need to be (in this future roadmap  I mean)?
You are happy with the transparency?
You are happy with question time being suspended in parliament for the time it was?
You are happy with Jenny Mikakos's answers the one time she did front?

Dan and the ALP was a very solid A+ for me in round 1
They have failed the Victorian people miserably in round 2 in my opinion and that is the reason why this period of quarantine has needed to be as long as it has been.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 22, 2020, 09:05:57 am
We had the toughest restrictions in the country. We all followed them (except the BLM protesters), basically were as close go virus free as the other states then his government let the virus back in
Then the prick had the gall to blame all of us.




To be fair, he didn't blame all of us, just the c0ckheads who blatantly broke the rules and spread the virus. What did happen, though, is that we ALL suffered due to the stupidity of some and as we're now learning, also, the incompetence of tracing equipment, quarantining and elements of government.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 22, 2020, 09:07:52 am
We had the toughest restrictions in the country. We all followed them (except the BLM protesters), basically were as close go virus free as the other states then his government let the virus back in
Then the prick had the gall to blame all of us

Yes this is a fair blight on Dan also...
His playing with the truth had me frothing in the mouth with anger at the people doing the wrong things (well and I still do), but he overplayed that and when those numbers were contradicted and he relied on semantics.

The people not following rules absolutely contributed to the virus, there is no doubt of this and we can even use age distribution of the virus as reasonable evidence to build a case to support this.

But..
The hotel bungling
The poor testing/tracing
The inaction because he "hoped" it would clear up

These absolutely are considerably bigger factors than the comparatively few people that did the wrong thing and infected people.

He should be ashamed that he was so quick to admonish Victorians, but so quick to shun questions about the governments screw ups.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 22, 2020, 09:18:05 am
There is a lot made about Dan blaming Victorians, and everyone taking it very personally.

its very "look at me".

If you broke the rules, you can wear that criticism.  If you didnt it probably doesnt apply to you, but hes not going to come out and name individual people and suburbs because they will get lynched.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on September 22, 2020, 09:20:41 am
Brad Hazzard and his NSW mates didn't exactly cover themselves in glory in a similar manner to the Vic  quarantine bungle.  Bungles - major ones - were overseen by both sides of the political spectrum.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 22, 2020, 09:25:21 am
There is a lot made about Dan blaming Victorians, and everyone taking it very personally.

its very "look at me".

If you broke the rules, you can wear that criticism.  If you didnt it probably doesnt apply to you, but hes not going to come out and name individual people and suburbs because they will get lynched.

I think it is because it is insulting to those doing the right thing and they are getting frustrated at these people, whilst also covering up goverment bungling.
For example the government did not just volunteer early that their system was overwhelmed due to the inefficient practices with tracing, instead it set neighbour vs neighbour.
People would be less angered if they didn't feel betrayed by the government's failure to self report to the public
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 22, 2020, 09:28:09 am
We had the toughest restrictions in the country. We all followed them (except the BLM protesters), basically were as close go virus free as the other states then his government let the virus back in
Then the prick had the gall to blame all of us.

He totally mismanaged the second lockdown, the quarantine, denied (and continues to deny) any suggestion the Feds made offers to assist with the ADF and his stooges who know nothing (no doubt under instruction from him) magnified the problem and hide the truth. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 22, 2020, 09:39:57 am
He totally mismanaged the second lockdown, the quarantine, denied (and continues to deny) any suggestion the Feds made offers to assist with the ADF and his stooges who know nothing (no doubt under instruction from him) magnified the problem and hide the truth. 

He lied and was caught out when the ADF said they had the manpower and the offer was made. Its going to cost him his job IMHO next election...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 22, 2020, 09:52:57 am
He lied and was caught out when the ADF said they had the manpower and the offer was made. Its going to cost him his job IMHO next election...

I thought so also, but a weak liberal party and the fact we will come out of this virus with low numbers compared to global numbers might just save him.
Come election time, many people are going to look at how are living hopefully virus free and that will be a feather in his cap, I can't see the liberal party using the slogan "Dan killed 400 people" in an election and winning too many votes.

I was pretty sure he would be gone, but reading commentary of some who still have such a blind unquestioning faith in him, I am not so convinced now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 22, 2020, 09:59:24 am
To be fair, he didn't blame all of us, just the c0ckheads who blatantly broke the rules and spread the virus. What did happen, though, is that we ALL suffered due to the stupidity of some and as we're now learning, also, the incompetence of tracing equipment, quarantining and elements of government.
Fair enough baggers but to MBB's point, why did the Gov let the BLM protest go ahead when clearly it was not in the best interests of the community from a H&S point of view given the circumstances. Everyone has a right to protest, however there are circumstances where it should be stopped and postponed during states of emergency.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 22, 2020, 10:01:23 am
I thought so also, but a weak liberal party and the fact we will come out of this virus with low numbers compared to global numbers might just save him.
Come election time, many people are going to look at how are living hopefully virus free and that will be a feather in his cap, I can't see the liberal party using the slogan "Dan killed 400 people" in an election and winning too many votes.

I was pretty sure he would be gone, but reading commentary of some who still have such a blind unquestioning faith in him, I am not so convinced now.
I personally am not looking at this from a Lib Lab Green etc point of view, I am simply making a judgement on the actions of the man in charge right now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 22, 2020, 10:04:29 am
I personally am not looking at this from a Lib Lab Green etc point of view, I am simply making a judgement on the actions of the man in charge right now.

Oh I am the same.. Personally unless there is a considerable change in the way the government handles this next few weeks, I will be voting again ALP, I don't know if it will be for liberal, but it won't be for Dan.

But it appears many people predisposed to the ALP will stick fat and there will be a number of swing votes that will wear the lie that he saved us in this 2nd wave, when in reality it would not have been hard for anyone in charge to have done a better job, as unenviable as that job is.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 22, 2020, 10:06:01 am
Has anyone else seen the timeline that I have seen?

Generally every single time Dan "lied" the timeline points to ADF support being granted in June, about 2 days before we stopped quarantining return travellers which sort of lends weight to the point that perhaps ADF support was on offer, but Andrews wasnt aware and that he isnt lying about it.

Every single "he lied" article people have shared has faulty timelines that point to ADF support being requested and granted in late June, about 3 days before the decision was made to re-route return travellers away from Melbourne when 2nd wave had already taken hold.

Context is extremely important in these discussions and I think it gets lost in a lot of hyperbole including the "Andrews blames Victorians", which I think would be a paraphrase or interpretation of comments he made describing how this all unfolded.

Anyway, Im generally Apolitical.  They are all thieves.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 22, 2020, 10:16:11 am
Fair enough baggers but to MBB's point, why did the Gov let the BLM protest go ahead when clearly it was not in the best interests of the community from a H&S point of view given the circumstances. Everyone has a right to protest, however there are circumstances where it should be stopped and postponed during states of emergency.

There are a few reasons.

1.  Imagine seeing police enforcement of that protest in much the same way we saw at Vic Market. 

2.  At the time our case numbers were all in the right direction.  He didn't actually green light the protest, and implored everyone to stay home an do the right thing.  I remember seeing him state it in the media.

3.  Optics.  Had he come out and lambasted the BLM movement, he would simply have been another sight of the oppressive white man not allowing native people their right in public.

Its very understandable why this unfolded the way it did unless you have an agenda to push against Andrews.  Personally I don't care but this one is a really big stretch to criticise him on.  It just doesnt fit the narrative unless you want it to.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/worried-about-coronavirus-daniel-andrews-urges-victorians-to-avoid-black-lives-matter-rally

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 22, 2020, 11:23:40 am
Then the prick had the gall to blame all of us.
Only if you broke the rules.

Is that post a bit of a tell about your position on political activism? ;D

btw., I'm not condemning you one way or the other, but I worry that many so called activists want to hide behind claims of social responsibility when they see fit. Ironically, through doing so, they are actually acting subversively in much the way that they accuse the authorities of being!

Social activism succeeds by being overt not covert, Gandhi would have been a dud if he had lied about his political position. ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on September 22, 2020, 11:38:44 am
Nobody let the BLM go ahead. That went head anyway,  and from memory the three organisers copped hefty fines. What was he supposed to do,  go in batons flailing?   Great optics there.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 22, 2020, 11:49:40 am
BLM, they should have made it clear they would be fining protestors
A ban in NSW of course was overturned by the Court of Appeals, so chances are we would have found ourselves in a similar fate in Victoria.
But, the optics were very poor and certainly making it clear that people would be fined would have reduced the crowd numbers, it was an idiotic time for the rally, regardless of the cause.
To be clear though, as dangerous as the protest was, on the scale of impact on the virus and the length of the lockdowns, there is not a lot of evidence to suggest it ended up having a significant impact, which is surprising.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 22, 2020, 11:51:37 am
Nobody let the BLM go ahead. That went head anyway,  and from memory the three organisers copped hefty fines. What was he supposed to do,  go in batons flailing?   Great optics there.
NSW went to court to make it illegal didnt they?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 22, 2020, 11:54:50 am
NSW went to court to make it illegal didnt they?

They did and the rally had it overturned at the court of appeals
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 22, 2020, 12:22:52 pm
Fair enough baggers but to MBB's point, why did the Gov let the BLM protest go ahead when clearly it was not in the best interests of the community from a H&S point of view given the circumstances. Everyone has a right to protest, however there are circumstances where it should be stopped and postponed during states of emergency.

When I said c0ckheads who stuff it up for everyone else, that as far as I'm concerned, includes all protestors as well as the other clowns who just flagrantly break rules to visit mates or whateverthefck. And I sure don't think that Dan should have let that go ahead... no excuses. Like those other d1ckheads who got off without a fine recently... Dan only cr@ps in his own bed when his rules are so easily bent or compromised. Yes, everyone has the right to protest... but not when you endanger other lives/breaks the rules. If protestors have half a brain they can easily realise that there are many ways for them to get their message across without rooting up things for others during a pandemic, FFS. Sometimes I think some protestors are nothing more than malcontents who just want to have a whinge - and they fck it up for the ridgy didge folks... but that's an argument for another day.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 22, 2020, 12:23:24 pm
Only if you broke the rules.

Is that post a bit of a tell about your position on political activism? ;D

btw., I'm not condemning you one way or the other, but I worry that many so called activists want to hide behind claims of social responsibility when they see fit. Ironically, through doing so, they are actually acting subversively in much the way that they accuse the authorities of being!

Social activism succeeds by being overt not covert, Gandhi would have been a dud if he had lied about his political position. ;)


I haven't broke the rules, I actually don't know of anyone who has despite dictator Dan saying we all know someone who has.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 22, 2020, 12:44:19 pm
It may be me becoming an old curmudgeon but I am sick of political expediency overruling principle these days. OK it's probably always been an issue but it seems to have become much worse in recent times. Too much lying, deception and excuse making.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 22, 2020, 01:18:36 pm
I haven't broke the rules, I actually don't know of anyone who has despite dictator Dan saying we all know someone who has.
There is some irony in protesters wearing bandanna face masks while protesting face masks, which I believe is now breaking the law in Australia.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 22, 2020, 05:48:11 pm
I'm sick of all the political talk and grandstanding that runs along as a sideshow with COVID, specifically with Dan Andrews.

People form an opinion based on which way they vote and what their party says.....and ignore the other side of things. A lot of the anti-Dan is simply anti-labour (not all mind you) dressed up in different clothing.

I think it was GI2C who said its not about labour/liberal, its about doing the job from the position we are in and ultimately how that shapes up to people in power around the world.

That is why i give him a B+. OK, he was 2 weeks to slow to jump on the second wave. 2 weeks. Donald Trump (an extreme example i admit) is what, 7 months too slow to do anything about it so far. China, Italy, England....how slow were they by comparison?

If you mapped out how each leader handled it, he'd be near the pointy end (Hence B+) based on infections, actions and communication.
Again, Perfect? No. But point to someone who has been perfect. Even if there is, there is still a Donald Trump on the other end of the spectrum.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 22, 2020, 06:30:03 pm
I'm sick of all the political talk and grandstanding that runs along as a sideshow with COVID, specifically with Dan Andrews.

People form an opinion based on which way they vote and what their party says.....and ignore the other side of things. A lot of the anti-Dan is simply anti-labour (not all mind you) dressed up in different clothing.

I think it was GI2C who said its not about labour/liberal, its about doing the job from the position we are in and ultimately how that shapes up to people in power around the world.

That is why i give him a B+. OK, he was 2 weeks to slow to jump on the second wave. 2 weeks. Donald Trump (an extreme example i admit) is what, 7 months too slow to do anything about it so far. China, Italy, England....how slow were they by comparison?

If you mapped out how each leader handled it, he'd be near the pointy end (Hence B+) based on infections, actions and communication.
Again, Perfect? No. But point to someone who has been perfect. Even if there is, there is still a Donald Trump on the other end of the spectrum.
Absolutely shouldnt be a political issue K, this is a crisis which requires every man woman and child to do their bit and be unified for the safety of all. It lasted for a little while here in Vic, but as soon as the Libs smelt blood, it was on like donkey kong and quite frankly it makes me sick (pardon the pun). Perhaps I'm naive to think it not about politics, I just like to think that during times like these, community spirit can rise to the top. Obviously not.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 22, 2020, 06:52:08 pm
It may be me becoming an old curmudgeon but I am sick of political expediency overruling principle these days. OK it's probably always been an issue but it seems to have become much worse in recent times. Too much lying, deception and excuse making.

Side by side with you on that one, Fluffy One. It's the most vulgar of opportunism that there is. Sadly, it will likely only get worse... many are buoyed by the Orange Rodent's success through lying and manipulation. We live in times when it would appear that Machiavelli is reborn.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 22, 2020, 06:55:26 pm
Absolutely shouldnt be a political issue K, this is a crisis which requires every man woman and child to do their bit and be unified for the safety of all. It lasted for a little while here in Vic, but as soon as the Libs smelt blood, it was on like donkey kong and quite frankly it makes me sick (pardon the pun). Perhaps I'm naive to think it not about politics, I just like to think that during times like these, community spirit can rise to the top. Obviously not.

Sad but true, GTC. I don't even know the name of the leader of the Libs here in Victoria, but, sheesh, as you point out... as soon as a few things went wrong this bloke slithers out of the shadows and tries to score points.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 22, 2020, 10:27:58 pm
I'm sick of all the political talk and grandstanding that runs along as a sideshow with COVID, specifically with Dan Andrews.

But isn't it also grandstanding or politicizing to suggest than anyone that thinks Dan should be gone is irrational?
Not a dig, just a question.

Quote from: kruddler
People form an opinion based on which way they vote and what their party says.....and ignore the other side of things. A lot of the anti-Dan is simply anti-labour (not all mind you) dressed up in different clothing.

Would that include me, who is very vocal about poor Dan has been? Despite that fact I consider myself in the middle, I am in the middle left and if there were two equal candidates would vote labour. The 4 best politicians in my life from a Victorian or Federal level have been Bob Hawke, Little Johnny Howard, Jeff Kennett and Steve Bracks. 2 x ALP, 2 x Lib... but I was absolutely ALP in those days and would never have voted for Kennett or Howard.


Quote from: kruddler
I think it was GI2C who said its not about labour/liberal, its about doing the job from the position we are in and ultimately how that shapes up to people in power around the world.

Well does it need to be compared to people around the world.
I mea I can't name so many other countries with the geographical situation of Victoria. No internationals (at all) after we stopped receiving them, there are not random boat people arriving on the shores of Portsea. We have almost non existant border breaches and that is with states who already have it completely under control.

We had a virus with known infection rates completely under control, failed to quarantine it and then failed to act.

Quote from: kruddler
That is why i give him a B+. OK, he was 2 weeks to slow to jump on the second wave. 2 weeks. Donald Trump (an extreme example i admit) is what, 7 months too slow to do anything about it so far. China, Italy, England....how slow were they by comparison?

If you mapped out how each leader handled it, he'd be near the pointy end (Hence B+) based on infections, actions and communication.
Again, Perfect? No. But point to someone who has been perfect. Even if there is, there is still a Donald Trump on the other end of the spectrum.

I don't even know why Donald Trump would be used in any comparison, or Putin or Iraq's leaders etc.
I can't make an argument that Papa Doc was an B+ leader because he wasn't Stalin for example.
I am not actually comparing Stalin with Trump or Papa Doc with Dan, I am just stating you can't make a comparison here. They have different powers, run vastly different geographical areas and even then, you are comparing with the worst.

What about in comparison to
Annastacia Palaszczuk
Gladys Berejiklian
Mark McGowan etc

And if you really want an international leader, how close is Dan to Jacinta Arden?

Your language suggests that 2 weeks is well not such a big deal, even when I  suggest there is quite a reasonable chance that more than 50% of infections in the 2nd wave could still have been avoided by acting more quickly.

And btw I think 2 weeks is being extremely generous to Dan, in reality he should have acted as early as 21-25 days sooner than he did. I am using that as the base timeline in my modelling, because it is that time by which he absolutely had no excuses at all, could be under no illusion at all, that this was community wide and a major infection requiring more than wet lettuce responses.

At this stage we were already almost double the total of new cases at any stage within a 7 day period in the first wave which was 506 in the week. By the time we actually went into lockdown we were at 3177 cases over the previous 7 days for Victoria.

I have no issue with you ranking him a B+ Krud, but I take issue if for example you were in any way suggesting my messages are politically bias.
I genuinely think he has down an extremely awful job and almost certainly at least 300 (and probably over 400) of the lives lost, could have been saved with early action, against data that was irrefutable.

So yes it is okay for your B+, I accept it as a reasonable representation of how you feel, but I certainly disagree.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 22, 2020, 10:53:42 pm
I really don’t understand personal offence taken to Dan saying people broke the rules and are ‘blaming us Victorians’.  Talk about a guilty conscience perhaps. Or maybe just immature.  Talk about being thin skinned.

We’re in the middle of a screwing 1 in 100 year pandemic.  Grow the hell up!

Everyone makes mistakes and certainly when you’re on the fly making decisions, hindsight will highlight the worst of the errors made.  So what do we expect our leaders to do when that occurs? Batten down and get on with the job of leading us, fronting up every day to answer AGGRESSIVE Murdoch media reporters over and over again, not once raising a sweat because god forbid you give those screwers any type of bone to run you down with.  Front up, work day and night, weekend after weekend, ask nicely not to use your DEAD FATHER in a protest that originated from Liberal HQ... or do you run off to Hawaii, smirking like a smug prick when you decide which questions you’ll answer and which you’ll turn your back to - including ones about your CONTROL of aged care that was not managed properly in NSW to begin with and then ignored when safeguards from letting it happen again are told just be put in, and not bat an eye when the hundreds of dead in aged care is your responsibility.

I know who I see as a good leader and who I see as a worthless pile of crap.  One has gotten very lucky at smirking his way around taking  absolutely no responsibility for running this damn country properly.
Amazing how biased media is shining a light up ones arse - for absolutely no worthwhile reason; whilst absolutely bludgeoning the other.

If you want a good laugh and to thank your lucky stars the Liberals are not running this show in Vic, take a look on Tim Smith MPs Facebook page and find the post he put up about asking people to vote on Dan resigning.  It really says it all 😂 dipcrap.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 22, 2020, 10:59:35 pm
Well I agree on the Liberals, I mean they are a mess and I said in another post it is only hypothetical to imagine how they would have run things, but... it is a hypothetical if I am forced to make.. I don't like.
I also agree with the worthless reporting from the likes of Sky News, but then we have left wing media also that bows down to Dan, so that works both ways, but the right wing Sky is one of the worst.
The thing that worries me most about the Liberals is that I do have concerns they would be even worse, with a "open everything" policy, which would be a disaster.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 23, 2020, 07:17:39 am
But isn't it also grandstanding or politicizing to suggest than anyone that thinks Dan should be gone is irrational?
Not a dig, just a question.
I don't think so.

The majority of people who want Dan gone will either throw in a labour or liberal reference....certainly in the media at least. Thus revealing their hand/bias.

You are able to debate the merits of someone (abusing) being in a position of power without trying to point score politically.

Do we bring up which way MLG votes when we debate whether he is the right man for the job? Liddle??
Focus on the individual and the role they are doing. Yes, obviously i get he is a politician, but people who focus on that are not looking at it from a neutral point of view...usually.

Would that include me, who is very vocal about poor Dan has been? Despite that fact I consider myself in the middle, I am in the middle left and if there were two equal candidates would vote labour. The 4 best politicians in my life from a Victorian or Federal level have been Bob Hawke, Little Johnny Howard, Jeff Kennett and Steve Bracks. 2 x ALP, 2 x Lib... but I was absolutely ALP in those days and would never have voted for Kennett or Howard.
I don't know you well enough to make that call. But as an example there is a bloke i work with who thinks he is in the middle too. He is about as strong in his beliefs as anyone and is very much 'right' to anyone who talks politics with him.....he doesn't see it that way though....which is laughable if you know him.
That being said, immediately after you and I had this debate the other day, you started a 'who would you vote for' thread, so this is weighing on your mind politically, even if it is indirectly.

Well does it need to be compared to people around the world.
I mea I can't name so many other countries with the geographical situation of Victoria. No internationals (at all) after we stopped receiving them, there are not random boat people arriving on the shores of Portsea. We have almost non existant border breaches and that is with states who already have it completely under control.

We had a virus with known infection rates completely under control, failed to quarantine it and then failed to act.

I don't even know why Donald Trump would be used in any comparison, or Putin or Iraq's leaders etc.
I can't make an argument that Papa Doc was an B+ leader because he wasn't Stalin for example.
I am not actually comparing Stalin with Trump or Papa Doc with Dan, I am just stating you can't make a comparison here. They have different powers, run vastly different geographical areas and even then, you are comparing with the worst.

What about in comparison to
Annastacia Palaszczuk
Gladys Berejiklian
Mark McGowan etc

And if you really want an international leader, how close is Dan to Jacinta Arden?
Well this is part of the problem. You talk about the inability to find a parallel with Victoria. This is both a pro and a con. In one way, it has helped us by being in a relatively unique situation. In another way it means we are going into unknown territory of sorts in how to control it.

The reason for bringing up Trump and looking internationally is simply to show that there is not a clear right and wrong, but rather a spectrum. Trump is clearly on the other end of it to Dan. I'm not saying our situations are identical, far from it, but just that there were plenty of other ways Dan could've reacted in this situation.

Personally i think the biggest issue Dan has had to face, and i've said it all along, is that he trusts Victorians too much. He outlines what we should do and he expects us to do it. No, not us, we know better. Those rules don't apply to me, i can do whatever i want because i NEED a latte.  ::)

It reminds me of the whole Myki thing. We scoured the rest of the world for a system to adopt, i think we used Tokyo and/or Japans in the end. I remember at one stage them talking to Germany about their system and how it (IIRC) lacked turnstiles when going into the train stations and what not. The question was posed, how do you make sure people are using the system and paying correctly without turnstiles....the response was, people wouldn't dream of NOT using it correctly - why would they?

A workable solution for Germany, and one that would be well and truly abused by Australians. Much like Dans guidelines IMO. Aussies don't like doing what they are told.....and THAT has cost Dan more than anything,


Your language suggests that 2 weeks is well not such a big deal, even when I  suggest there is quite a reasonable chance that more than 50% of infections in the 2nd wave could still have been avoided by acting more quickly.

And btw I think 2 weeks is being extremely generous to Dan, in reality he should have acted as early as 21-25 days sooner than he did. I am using that as the base timeline in my modelling, because it is that time by which he absolutely had no excuses at all, could be under no illusion at all, that this was community wide and a major infection requiring more than wet lettuce responses.
I'm not saying your numbers are wrong.
I'm not saying 2 weeks is insignificant.
I'm just saying that its a spectrum...and 2 weeks is not a lot of time in reality.

Mathematically, 2 weeks (or more as you imply) makes sense.
Logistically, its a bit harder to make that happen.
How much time does it take you to go through every industry in Australia with a fine tooth comb and weight up whether it is more beneficial to close it for Covid reasons, or keep it open for financial reasons?
Remember how people continued to try and pick apart each stage of the lockdowns and look for inaccuracies?
Why am i not allowed to play golf? I am social distancing, and exercising, but i can't play.....BS!

How many micro-examples need to be worked through in order to put out a new lockdown stage. I appreciate some of this work can be done prior, but to suggest its just a switch we can flick and tada.....is where the mathematical models and the real world models simply cannot line up.

So kudos for you for working out timeframes etc, but you didn't have to work out the how and why of it all.

As far as where i sit in all this from a personal point of view...
I am working in the construction industry....which in reality is one of Dans favourite sectors.
I have been largely unaffected by COVID, thankfully.

However, i was pushing for construction to be locked down as well as a means to an end for this virus, ala Ardern when we went to stage 4. I didn't want this stage 4 to have to be increased in duration, or go to a stage 5 which included construction, because he did not go hard enough in implementing it.

In the end, we've got the best of both worlds. Containing Covid and keeping the economy going somewhat via construction in the process. That is another big tick for Dan, despite being of the opinion that call was initially wrong IMO.

So again, mathematical numbers vs logistics of reality is my take on the 2nd wave side of things.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 23, 2020, 08:35:58 am
Just a quick comment... really enjoyed reading the intelligent conversation between K and MIO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 23, 2020, 09:03:24 am
Yep cracking stuff.

Meanwhile, one could also argue that you lock us down first and ask questions later about what is going to be allowed (yes I am aware of the outrage).  I think the public would probably cope well enough with that initially even if it means you go to a harsh lockdown for a few days and then give people the appropriate communication but thats a hindsight argument, and one they may employ next time.

I am of the belief there will be a next time too by the way.  It will likely happen a lot later than anyone is expecting, when COVID is a distant memory, but FLU season comes around every year, and COVID season is likely to come with it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 23, 2020, 09:07:54 am
I don't have a particular issue with regards to what you said, only that I would say most of my friends think I am left wing when I think I have moved to the center, but you are right being introspective is not always the easiest thing and I can openly say at times I have realised I have shown biases in conversations I have thought I have been impartial in.
But that is different than having an agenda in any case.

But back to the only real main issue I have problem with there.
Dan didn't have to work out how a lockdown would look with only a moments notice, not by any stretch, not did he need to do it without support.
June 30th.. This is the date that drew me back into statistically analyzing data again for this virus. July 23rd we went to stage 3. It was already apparent that steps taken at that stage would only start to impact when the virus was at a rate 3 times higher than in the peak of the first wave.
Now Dan had the 2nd half of June to start to show real concern and should have already had a clear plan in place come July 1, but as stated I worked mine out on what would have occurred with stage 3 a little over a week after that.

Dan acted much more swiftly in the first wave and deserved every plaudit thrown his way at that stage.
But you don't have weeks on end to respond in a situation like this, because it costs lives.
I think the vast majority of Victorian's supported the lockdown and again I am in that boat, but the inaction of the government to respond in an efficient manner cost hundreds of lives, that is not just a hypothetical, that is a fact. If a government was responsible for decisions resulting in this many deaths in any other situation they would face criminal charges ( not that I am suggesting Dan should actually face any charges), but at a minimum I think it is absolutely appropriate to question the response.
Apart from the death and infection rates, of course it also directly resulted in a longer period of lockdown.

There was very very little doubt that the situation was out of control by June 30th, but by 7-10 days later, it was irrefutable.
Dan found level 2 lockdowns in the first phase were not appropriate enough to resolve the issue, when the majority of cases were international travelers or contacts of international travelers. Knowing there was more of an unknown factor in the community spread it is impossible to believe the government could be clueless enough to not realise it had to act, but still it implemented soft leaf restrictions that were not enough. Some of these were okay and they did impact the degree of spread, but they were not hard enough and the government had enough information at hand that they should understood this.

If this happened in wave 1, I would understand it more (well I would have had serious questions as I was also calling for an early lockdown in wave 1), but in wave 2, with the knowledge of the virus at a more mature level, I find it inexcusable.

Somethings would seem straight forward
Lockdown Aged Care from any visitors when the virus was in the community
Have an advanced track/trace method in place
Have tests that are returning results to patients in a expedient manner.

These are just a few things that should have been in place, but also.. why was there not already a roadmap on restrictions..
We hit these trigger points, we will do this, then this.. etc
These could have been (and should have been) worked out and distributed to different sectors of the community, specifically business leaders.

Failing to prepare in the midst of a global pandemic seems negligent to me.
Dan didn't need to just look and say "okay this looks bad" and then shut things down, this could very easily have been predetermined... and again it would have saved a lot of lives and a lot of hospitalizations.


Quote from: kruddler
That being said, immediately after you and I had this debate the other day, you started a 'who would you vote for' thread, so this is weighing on your mind politically, even if it is indirectly
Well it is true I don't think Dan should be in government, but probably I would vote labour if Dan was gone (as it stands now), but I could swing to Labour is Dan fixes the situation still, just because the Liberals are so screwed as well.
But.. my interest was more general than you suggest.. Dan would have won an election in absolute landslide at the end of April, I was interested whether or not the public still felt this way or whether there was a strong or slight switch away from him. I wondered in the context that I had personally experienced this.

Also I am not against anyone voting for or against Dan. I am not against anyone thinking he done a great job or a poor job, in reality both sides have merits.
But from my perspective, I am more interested in putting the tough questions to anyone in charge.
And it happens of course that data and statistics happens to be the area I worked for a very long time, so analyzing situations and stats and facts frustrates me when I see things I don't like.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 23, 2020, 09:13:11 am
I am of the belief there will be a next time too by the way.  It will likely happen a lot later than anyone is expecting, when COVID is a distant memory, but FLU season comes around every year, and COVID season is likely to come with it.

I am also, but I think with our geographical advantages afforded us, that we should be able to have some well published trigger points that the community is aware of and can prepare for and it should have a very high chance of not requiring a full lockdown again. Data should have multiple trigger points and there should be potentially actions per LGA etc, but this should all be able to be mapped out.

But they cannot use 14 day averages for this, that is absolutely certain.
In fact I would have 1, 3, 5 & 7 day triggers and if any of these are met, they results in different levels of actions.
The first levels of restrictions can be as simple as wearing masks outside your home and restricting numbers in buildings.
And they can get much tighter, but that is just details.

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 23, 2020, 09:28:47 am
We can discuss the politics and the politicians involved in all of this but we must also look into the public service and how well that is performing in terms of systems, people and technology in place to discharge its responsibilities,  in this case manage  a pandemic. I firmly believe it is sadly lacking and the problems we have witnessed are systemic.  Politicians should be focused on sorting them out as well as managing the current crisis and we, the public, should be kept fully informed and not lied to.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 23, 2020, 09:54:52 am
We can discuss the politics and the politicians involved in all of this but we must also look into the public service and how well that is performing in terms of systems, people and technology in place to discharge its responsibilities,  in this case manage  a pandemic. I firmly believe it is sadly lacking and the problems we have witnessed are systemic.  Politicians should be focused on sorting them out as well as managing the current crisis and we, the public, should be kept fully informed and not lied to.
The trouble is the politicians know where the bread gets buttered, the bureaucracy can make life easy or hard for them so the politicians are compliant and pretty much toothless in dealing with them, the Yes Minister or The Thick of It joke isn't such a joke at all!

Unfortunately, the general public tend to lump the medical professionals in with the bureaucracy that runs health, so as the disdain for the decision making grows so does the distrust in the medical professionals which is largely an unwarranted correlation.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 23, 2020, 09:56:37 am
@mateinone
I did make a point of how work on next stage of lockdowns are worked upon prior to the actual date.
The point i make still remains though. How much time do you need to go through every inch of industry and work out what we can and can't afford to close in terms of achieving/limiting the community transmission and at the same time trying to walk a fine line economically? THEN factor in how to actually brief the public so they don't start to riot!

Just on this, the day before stage 4 was announced there was a leak of what stage 4 could look like. Without seeing a date on document, it was clear that it was pretty close to what ended up happening, however, there will still some differences between that draft and the final. Dan said in his stage 4 press conference when quizzed about some differences between the 2 that he is unaware of which version the media were looking at. This clearly suggests that there have been multiple rewrites as data becomes available.

Another thing. I cannot recall where it was, but someone was talking about a country/city that imposed some kind of lockdown and insisted on masks etc, but there was physically not enough masks for the population to actually wear, especially when factoring in the needs of hospitals and the like. Another point on logistics vs mathematics i was referring too.

Finally the majority of cases have been in aged care. I'm not sure how much has been said publicly on the matter, but some of those numbers are inflated. Some people are dying and its being put down as Covid related despite never having a test for it while they were alive, or after. I said some time back that this kind of thing was happening in the US too. I'm not sure how much of that (mis)information is politically driven, but i'm sceptical of that. Of course the aged care industry has been exposed as being sub-par....mainly federal run sections of it too which is a whole other can of worms.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 23, 2020, 10:09:58 am
But Kruddler
You seem to at one stage suggest it could have shut down, but then suggest logistics means it couldn't easily.
But why couldn't there be trigger points, I means when we were 2x, 3x, heading for 5 x and eventually ending on 7x the weekly rate from wave 1

I understand logistics are a big factor, but I don't buy that it creates the lead time we seen.
No offense Kruddler, but you seem so invested in one side of the story that you are sure there must be alternative reasons. Perhaps I am so sure of my position it makes me scoff at such reasons as being okay..

But I can't buy that we "had" to have the extra 10,000 or so infections, because Dan couldn't get the logistics right, it implies we would need to face the same scenario if there is another wave.

Also the test, track/trace was a huge stuff up.

I mean the people most responsible for the size and duration of this outbreak is the government. Yes the age demographics suggest there are people doing the wrong thing to of course and we see that with the fines and the idiots, but most people are compliant and with sensible, well implemented and strong enough restrictions in place sooner, many many lives would have been saved.

The government though does not even want to share the data on the decision making, because it goes against he public interest.
From today's papers.

Quote
Victoria’s curfew was put in place on August 2 to run from 8pm to 5am.

From September 14 it was loosened by former deputy public health commander Michelle Giles to 9pm to 5am and was due to expire on October 11.

Prof Giles had only spent nine days in the role when she signed off on the curfew and told the court she acted without any influence from Daniel Andrews or his office.

She said she made the decision based on government data that proved “a clear and direct correlation” between stage 4 restrictions and a reduction in case numbers.

However, that data remains secret data has not been tendered in court.

The Herald Sun reports that the lawyers representing the state government said they would resist the production of the data on public interest immunity grounds – which means the release of the documents would be against the public interest.

I mean come on, we don't have people mature enough to make debates and need to hide such data as though it is a state secret?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on September 23, 2020, 10:14:15 am
With the 14 day average now below trigger points for the road map, it will be interesting on Sunday to see if there are some restrictions that will be lifted early.

There is significant pressure by business and on business that I think some more will be allowed to open their doors again.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 23, 2020, 10:16:39 am
The fundamental problem as I see it is that the politicians flip between ideologies of control versus extinction, it is driving the decision making. They have people some of them qualified but some unqualified whispering in their ear.

NZ must have been a real wake up call, and certainly a game changer for anyone except the morbidly stupid, over there the politicians want to point the finger but the science is telling them the virus is now endemic like the flu.

Virus extinction is not a real world option, it never was, but it is a wish or a dream some still have!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 23, 2020, 10:30:14 am
@MIO...
Obviously with some of this i'm speculating because i don't work for the government. I said earlier that i'm playing devils advocate in parts.

For the record, i'm not saying what he has done has been perfect. Nobody is.
Instead i'm saying i can understand the overall picture to a degree and i'm not arguing the modelling as that is your baby and i trust your judgement on those things.

Again, on the overall spectrum he has done well. Would he do some things different if he had his time again? Sure. Wouldn't everybody??
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 23, 2020, 10:43:29 am
For the record, i'm not saying what he has done has been perfect. Nobody is.
Instead i'm saying i can understand the overall picture to a degree and i'm not arguing the modelling as that is your baby and i trust your judgement on those things.

Again, on the overall spectrum he has done well. Would he do some things different if he had his time again? Sure. Wouldn't everybody??

I think that is our fundamental difference, I think on the overall spectrum he has not, on the first wave.. immensely successful, on the 2nd, really awful.

Btw on the restrictions, I would ease this week, but only ever so slightly, my issue with the road map he has is the next phase.

At the current rate, without some uncharted outbreak (which can happen so easily when the numbers are so low), we are on track for being under 15 cases (average over 14 days for the state) around October 1-2.
That for me is when things get interesting, because NSW peaked at 13 cases a day averaged over 2 weeks in August and have managed to keep things relatively under control to date. Once Vicitoria's numbers go under NSW's peak numbers, it is going to be a hard sell to suggest that people really can't go and get a packet of smokes or a loaf of bread at 7/11 at 11pm at night.

I am not against it now, but it is going to be very interesting if things change... Despite all my disappointment in Dan's handling in this case, which I have posted also away from here, I have also posted that I have faith they will alter the roadmap, it is just a case of  when.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on September 23, 2020, 11:21:49 am
I don't understand why SA is opening the border with NSW,  when the cases there are hovering around ten a day or so,  not much different to Victoria which remains in stage 4 lock down.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 23, 2020, 11:31:02 am
We can discuss the politics and the politicians involved in all of this but we must also look into the public service and how well that is performing in terms of systems, people and technology in place to discharge its responsibilities,  in this case manage  a pandemic. I firmly believe it is sadly lacking and the problems we have witnessed are systemic.  Politicians should be focused on sorting them out as well as managing the current crisis and we, the public, should be kept fully informed and not lied to.

I wonder if this pandemic has woken up many to the reality of pandemics and their potential devastation. We hope that those who run the show have learned that public education & understanding becomes a priority along with future strategies to deal with another 'outbreak' swiftly and effectively. And there will be more.

Personally, I believe a national pandemic should be run out of Canberra and not by individual states. These things are much better handled when there is one centralised, co-ordinated message, that is strategically ready, informed and resourced. We need to be prepared, at all levels, for future pandemics. I hope we have learned that lesson.

The Federal Government has at its disposal the military and within the military there are highly ranked dudes who are trained, know and understand how to institute and manage/run a disciplined national strategy... advised and directed, of course, by senior, experienced, non-political medical/scientific personnel. Science loads the bullets, the military fires them whilst the govt of the day supports these folks and the community at large and is ultimately accountable - so you need a few ministers who bury partisan, ideological political crap and stand shoulder to shoulder with science, the military and the community to look after the entire nation.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 23, 2020, 05:45:19 pm
I hear people crapping on all the time about people not being in ICU during this crisis like thats all that matters.  Thing is, the ICU is no laughing matter, and just because they arent full, doesnt mean that if we let things go a bit further with COVID, they wouldnt be.

1.  ICU's are literally knife edge stuff.  If you are in one as a patient, you are either gone for all money, or are a slim chance of getting out alive.  They should be renamed Critical care units, but I think they don't want to panic people heading into them which is why they are branded ICU not CCU.

2.  The ICU's are not quick turnaround.  You dont go in one day, and then come out right as rain a couple of days after you aren't critical.  You go in on your death bed, and you end up in there for days on end in a life or death battle.  Sometimes the outcome of either can take days, weeks or months, and from what I understand we do quite well, but its no easy feat to be in an ICU.

3.  There arent as many ICU beds as everyone thinks there are.  I can tell you, that the network I work for, covers a very large catchment area, and based on additional spending we can maximise our ICU's at a grand total of 66 beds in 3 hospitals with emergency departments, and a host of others without any capability....  Food for thought, our catchment area is quite large and would have a couple of million people in it from Metropolitan Melbourne.

Sure, there are other options to flex into temporary setups, and private hospitals of which I am not aware of, but I can tell you now, that if the public understand that having 15+ patients in my network with covid is 25% of their capability to look after ANY patient requiring an ICU, then they might have a better understanding.  The ICU's are not generally packed, but they are never empty and from memory Ive never seen them less than 50% vacant at any one time.  I have only been into ICU few times during the COVID crisis, and on each occasion have seen at least a few COVID patients.  During this relatively mundane wave, there was a distinct panic about what it could potentially mean if things got out of hand with the exponential growth.

Food for thought.  Politicise this all you like, the hospital networks were struggling at one point, and there was some genuine issues with staffing the beds, irrespective of what people may have thought about hospital capacity.  Nurse to patient ratios are still a thing, and you cant open a bed if there is no one to look after the patient lying in there.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 23, 2020, 06:55:35 pm
I hear people crapping on all the time about people not being in ICU during this crisis like thats all that matters.  Thing is, the ICU is no laughing matter, and just because they arent full, doesnt mean that if we let things go a bit further with COVID, they wouldnt be.

1.  ICU's are literally knife edge stuff.  If you are in one as a patient, you are either gone for all money, or are a slim chance of getting out alive.  They should be renamed Critical care units, but I think they don't want to panic people heading into them which is why they are branded ICU not CCU.

2.  The ICU's are not quick turnaround.  You dont go in one day, and then come out right as rain a couple of days after you aren't critical.  You go in on your death bed, and you end up in there for days on end in a life or death battle.  Sometimes the outcome of either can take days, weeks or months, and from what I understand we do quite well, but its no easy feat to be in an ICU.

3.  There arent as many ICU beds as everyone thinks there are.  I can tell you, that the network I work for, covers a very large catchment area, and based on additional spending we can maximise our ICU's at a grand total of 66 beds in 3 hospitals with emergency departments, and a host of others without any capability....  Food for thought, our catchment area is quite large and would have a couple of million people in it from Metropolitan Melbourne.

Sure, there are other options to flex into temporary setups, and private hospitals of which I am not aware of, but I can tell you now, that if the public understand that having 15+ patients in my network with covid is 25% of their capability to look after ANY patient requiring an ICU, then they might have a better understanding.  The ICU's are not generally packed, but they are never empty and from memory Ive never seen them less than 50% vacant at any one time.  I have only been into ICU few times during the COVID crisis, and on each occasion have seen at least a few COVID patients.  During this relatively mundane wave, there was a distinct panic about what it could potentially mean if things got out of hand with the exponential growth.

Food for thought.  Politicise this all you like, the hospital networks were struggling at one point, and there was some genuine issues with staffing the beds, irrespective of what people may have thought about hospital capacity.  Nurse to patient ratios are still a thing, and you cant open a bed if there is no one to look after the patient lying in there.

Important post. Further to my previous missive, as part of governments waking up to the reality of pandemics and instituting all that is needed to care for large numbers of ill folks, is to address hospital shortages and ENSURE we're ready for the next one, which could very well be much worse.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 23, 2020, 07:09:53 pm
I hear people crapping on all the time about people not being in ICU during this crisis like thats all that matters.  Thing is, the ICU is no laughing matter, and just because they arent full, doesnt mean that if we let things go a bit further with COVID, they wouldnt be.

1.  ICU's are literally knife edge stuff.  If you are in one as a patient, you are either gone for all money, or are a slim chance of getting out alive.  They should be renamed Critical care units, but I think they don't want to panic people heading into them which is why they are branded ICU not CCU.

2.  The ICU's are not quick turnaround.  You dont go in one day, and then come out right as rain a couple of days after you aren't critical.  You go in on your death bed, and you end up in there for days on end in a life or death battle.  Sometimes the outcome of either can take days, weeks or months, and from what I understand we do quite well, but its no easy feat to be in an ICU.

3.  There arent as many ICU beds as everyone thinks there are.  I can tell you, that the network I work for, covers a very large catchment area, and based on additional spending we can maximise our ICU's at a grand total of 66 beds in 3 hospitals with emergency departments, and a host of others without any capability....  Food for thought, our catchment area is quite large and would have a couple of million people in it from Metropolitan Melbourne.

Sure, there are other options to flex into temporary setups, and private hospitals of which I am not aware of, but I can tell you now, that if the public understand that having 15+ patients in my network with covid is 25% of their capability to look after ANY patient requiring an ICU, then they might have a better understanding.  The ICU's are not generally packed, but they are never empty and from memory Ive never seen them less than 50% vacant at any one time.  I have only been into ICU few times during the COVID crisis, and on each occasion have seen at least a few COVID patients.  During this relatively mundane wave, there was a distinct panic about what it could potentially mean if things got out of hand with the exponential growth.

Food for thought.  Politicise this all you like, the hospital networks were struggling at one point, and there was some genuine issues with staffing the beds, irrespective of what people may have thought about hospital capacity.  Nurse to patient ratios are still a thing, and you cant open a bed if there is no one to look after the patient lying in there.
Thry, Agree with all of that, older patients come in with routine illness/operations and some quickly develop Pneumonia and its off to ICU and most pass away with or without Covid. The public think that a ventilator is a guarantee to save your life and the easy fix is buy more ventilators, get more beds. If you are on a ventilator the odds are not good and ICU nurses dont grow on trees, they are specially trained, you just cant go and throw grad nurses into a ICU and expect them to cope.
Plus there are bad hospitals and even worse hospitals, the good ones are in short supply and the really bad ones usually exist in the less affluent areas and you also you need to be an advocate for your loved one, anyone who is 85 plus will be a DNR candidate and might not even make it to ICU.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 23, 2020, 08:03:15 pm
I don't understand why SA is opening the border with NSW,  when the cases there are hovering around ten a day or so,  not much different to Victoria which remains in stage 4 lock down.

Scott Morrison spoke a few weeks ago about moving away from locking down state borders and focusing more on regions. Like if Mildura were covid free why couldn't they travel to Adelaide just because Melbourne is stuffed?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 24, 2020, 07:40:42 am
Its amazing how prevalent amnesia is in the Victorian government is, it has ravaged the place. Forget Covid sufferers filling hospital beds, they will be full of patients (Gov Officials) with severe memory loss. Only two left to front the enquiry, if they are ill as well, may need to call in troops to run the joint.  I always thought only OMG members or Gangsters suffered this condition. What a farken embarrassment!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 24, 2020, 08:26:51 am
I don't understand why SA is opening the border with NSW,  when the cases there are hovering around ten a day or so,  not much different to Victoria which remains in stage 4 lock down.

They Vic numbers will crossover soon (1st week of October) to the worst NSW numbers of the last few months (early August), but they are a fair way from NSW's current numbers of cases that are not returning travelers.
Victoria won't get to that stage until probably the 3rd week of October

Btw just another regional issue. The fact that Mildura has shutdown for this huge period of time, instead of implementing cross LGA checks with the police on the major roads is beyond me. Mildura hasn't had a case for 5 months, but was in the same level of lockdowns as Geelong.

This is another issue that really is not good enough. In reality Mildura would have been better if a bubble was created, complete with restrictions to other LGAs, but then negotiated access to NSW and SA. This would have allowed that economy to still thrive in this period, instead.. because of the bungling that has occurred elsewhere, the state government decided that regional Victoria was a "whole entity" and their economies would hang in the balance dependent on other regional areas. This seems quite ridiculous in hindsight.. I don't mind the original thought pattern behind this, but flexibility within the government should have shown up the issues such as the one described above and created solutions more specific to areas.

You would hope the government will come up with a much better process before a 3rd wave and the should already be constantly reviewing these scenarios
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 24, 2020, 01:04:18 pm
Its amazing how prevalent amnesia is in the Victorian government is, it has ravaged the place. Forget Covid sufferers filling hospital beds, they will be full of patients (Gov Officials) with severe memory loss. Only two left to front the enquiry, if they are ill as well, may need to call in troops to run the joint.  I always thought only OMG members or Gangsters suffered this condition. What a farken embarrassment!!

Scary crap, hopefully Dan hasn't been infected and he can tell us all tomorrow what he remembers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 24, 2020, 01:17:52 pm
Food for thought.  Politicise this all you like, the hospital networks were struggling at one point, and there was some genuine issues with staffing the beds, irrespective of what people may have thought about hospital capacity.  Nurse to patient ratios are still a thing, and you cant open a bed if there is no one to look after the patient lying in there.
Late last year I've went to the Alfred to visit a relative who just had bypass surgery, I'm not sure about current situation but the bulk of those those ICU wards and critical care beds were just not setup for COVID, and if they are full of COVID patients it's really bad news for people with other critical conditions! While my relative was in there a antibiotic resistant bug detected in one area caused havoc, pushing them into the corridors, and that was only affecting a couple of rooms and a couple of patients!

Which makes it quite plausible that people are dying because of COVID but without COVID, it's a feature of a pandemic that is easily overlooked by the general public but it's not lost to our health professionals!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 24, 2020, 01:20:50 pm
Late last year I've went to the Alfred to visit a relative who just had bypass surgery, I'm not sure about current situation but the bulk of those those ICU wards and critical care beds were just not setup for COVID, and if they are full of COVID patients it's really bad news for people with other critical conditions! While my relative was in there a antibiotic resistant bug detected in one area caused havoc, pushing them into the corridors, and that was only affecting a couple of rooms and a couple of patients!

Which makes it quite plausible that people are dying because of COVID but without COVID, it's a feature of a pandemic that is easily overlooked by the general public but it's not lost to our health professionals!

Particularly when people say "they're inflating the numbers".  Cause of death is flaky at the best of times.  My dad died of hematemisis as a result of liver failure, and his death certificate says re-activation of Hepatitis C.  Neither would have happened if not for his Chemotherapy treatment for a bone marrow transplant because he had Chronic Lymphocytic Leukaemia.

The outcome was the same, the cause of death the same, and the issue that killed him was a mere statistical anomaly.  Keep that in mind if anyone ever tells you about a high survival rate of some cancers, and a high death rate of others.  Its often not the cause of death, but it wont mean it wont kill you anyway.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 24, 2020, 01:45:24 pm
Pretty disturbing chat with a client yesterday, could be a one off but apparently not. At her place of employ, a major retail outlet... let's say not too far from the MCG, blatantly and flagrantly and willfully disobeyed social distancing and mask wearing. She spoke up and said she would not disobey state directives - the remaining staff did... fear of losing their job - fortunately, because she is probably their best performer, she wasn't sacked but she worked from home. She told me the 'shop' was dobbed in a few times to the Health Dept and SFA happened. I reckon someone will dob them in, and other businesses who deliberately disobey, to the media... then it'll be on for young and old.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 24, 2020, 01:51:15 pm
Particularly when people say "they're inflating the numbers".  Cause of death is flaky at the best of times.  My dad died of liver failure, and his death certificate says re-activation of Hepatitis C.  Neither would have happened if not for his Chemotherapy treatment for a bone marrow transplant because he had Chronic Lymphocytic Leukaemia.
Sorry to hear that @Thryleon‍, very same thing happened to my uncle. I would not have been any the wiser except his son and daughter-in-law were both hospital nursing staff and gave me the background causes. Sure the liver failure caused his death, by it was a bunch of other failing health issues that impacted the liver in the first place. Of course even though they were not nursing him, they could read the charts and knew exactly what was happening. Which in someways was nice, and much better than burying your head in the sand or being oblivious. They could give the whole family forewarning and most of us got the opportunity to visit while my uncle was still lucid.

I tell you why this sort of honesty is important, apologies for the long read.

When I was in my late teens my father developed bowel cancer, it was already too late to do anything about it when it was detected, he was old school and you didn't go to the doctor until you were too ill to get out of bed. First lesson, if you are unwell for anything more than a passing moment, go to the doctor. When he was in hospital, palliative care, he would have his good and bad days, when he was good they'd send him home for a few days, when he got bad he'd go back into care for more intensive treatment. When in hospital I use to visit him everyday on the way home, I had to drive past his hospital to get home, the only time I wouldn't stop by was when I knew they would be letting him home either that evening or the next morning. Anyway, he'd call telling me when that was the case, which he did one day and as usual I drove right past. That was the last time I talked to him. The doctors and nurses knew he wasn't going home, even though he felt particularly well they could see it in the numbers, they knew something was different. I appreciate it was right of the staff not to bother him with that information, I got the call next morning at work he had passed away, fortunately they had rushed my mother into the hospital to be with him. They did the right thing by him, but I felt I was big enough to handle the news and I wouldn't have driven right past his hospital on the way home the night before, of course I never complained what is the point!

I feel the obfuscation by politicians is somewhat analogous, because COVID related deaths as opposed to dying of COVID is very very real, we are being treated a bit like we cannot deal with the reality. But imaginations can be worse than the reality, even if reality is stranger!

A lot of the protesters are just spoilt brats using their imagination, you can just tell they would be the ones who spit the dummy in my example above, you can just tell they'll be the ones wailing on the TV cameras if a relative dies of COVID! They are the cause not the cure, the real reason why the politicians obfuscate!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 25, 2020, 04:56:15 pm
So with the final day of questions in the inquiry.
You would think at least one of the following 2 statements must be true.
The Victorian government so incompetent that they run the most critical program in the states recent history with absolutely no insistence on accountability, record keeping etc?
The Victorian government lying?

Btw there is every chance if the government was a listed business and have this lack of detail for an inquiry, they would face being de-registered, receive huge fine and/or face potential criminal charges.

And this is all just on ONE element, the hotel bungling.
Interesting that they are not being forced to release some of their "secret data" around their modelling and decision making, data that they insisted was in the public interest to not release.

Government without accountability and transparency... Is this Australia or Belarus?
This inquiry to me proved that the government is about protecting it's own position above all else.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 25, 2020, 05:21:09 pm
Its amazing how prevalent amnesia is in the Victorian government is, it has ravaged the place. Forget Covid sufferers filling hospital beds, they will be full of patients (Gov Officials) with severe memory loss. Only two left to front the enquiry, if they are ill as well, may need to call in troops to run the joint.  I always thought only OMG members or Gangsters suffered this condition. What a farken embarrassment!!
Nope, poor Dan has it too, goodness me. Call in the Army (pun intended).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 25, 2020, 05:33:20 pm
You would think at least one of the following 2 statements must be true.
The Victorian government so incompetent that they run the most critical program in the states recent history with absolutely no insistence on accountability, record keeping etc?
The Victorian government lying?

Both >:D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 25, 2020, 05:35:21 pm
Mikakos set up to carry the can.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 25, 2020, 05:59:25 pm
So with the final day of questions in the inquiry.
You would think at least one of the following 2 statements must be true.
The Victorian government so incompetent that they run the most critical program in the states recent history with absolutely no insistence on accountability, record keeping etc?
The Victorian government lying?


Btw there is every chance if the government was a listed business and have this lack of detail for an inquiry, they would face being de-registered, receive huge fine and/or face potential criminal charges.

And this is all just on ONE element, the hotel bungling.
Interesting that they are not being forced to release some of their "secret data" around their modelling and decision making, data that they insisted was in the public interest to not release.

Government without accountability and transparency... Is this Australia or Belarus?
This inquiry to me proved that the government is about protecting it's own position above all else.

About sums it up.

I've just finished reading as much as I could about this fiasco. I was hoping that accountability would surface, be analyzed as to how it happened, and then strategies put in place so it could never, ever, happen again.

This is like an episode of Yes, Minister... without the humour.

What Dan has to realise, and quickly, that this episode of buck-passing, denial, assumptions and plain old incompetence will only erode at least, destroy at worst, community trust in him and his government.

If this was a local council, the state government would sack the lot of them.

Well, Dan, you can accept this bullsh1t non-result and give your opponents massive ammunition or you can get to the truth, quickly... someone is accountable and even if a 'committee/collective decision' on employing private security firms, there would still be in the Minutes a record of who Proposed, who Seconded and who would Action the decision... if not - then God help us all!

As for 'believing' that NSW would have been the priority for ADF help... sorry, Dan - bullsh1t. If you were fair dinkum about protecting your people, your state, you would have been on the dogger to ScoMo insisting on troops... asap. You're the leader and it is expected of you to be pro-active and insistent on looking after your state, your people in the very best way possible... not making limp assumptions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 25, 2020, 06:00:57 pm
Andrews performance was ludicrous IMO, how can you not know who made such an important decision, and I supported him initially during the first wave with his harsh lockdown approach. Mikakos indeed has been sacrificed but its like the French revolution, you know whats coming eventually when you treat the people with contempt.
Peoples lives have been lost and I'm not sure I could contain my anger if one of my family had been lost due to this bungled decision..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 25, 2020, 06:24:44 pm
Andrews performance was ludicrous IMO, how can you not know who made such an important decision, and I supported him initially during the first wave with his harsh lockdown approach. Mikakos indeed has been sacrificed but its like the French revolution, you know whats coming eventually when you treat the people with contempt.
Peoples lives have been lost and I'm not sure I could contain my anger if one of my family had been lost due to this bungled decision..

I couldn't and I wouldn't... in fact I'm pretty p1ssed off with this entire charade now, we've all been let down badly by this bullsh1t. Dan reckons it's unacceptable that none of his ministers knows precisely who made the private security company call... well, Knackers, for your political survival you'd better bloody find out!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 25, 2020, 06:25:35 pm
Cock up of the highest order.

Greatest public health f.... up in Australian history.

Killed close to 800, destroyed the State economy and 1000s of businesses, lives and livelihoods.

Many heads must roll. Including Dopey's.

And sure, they've lined up Mikakos in the first instance.

Anyone who thinks he really doesn't know needs help.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 25, 2020, 06:31:40 pm
I couldn't and I wouldn't... in fact I'm pretty p1ssed off with this entire charade now, we've all been let down badly by this bullsh1t. Dan reckons it's unacceptable that none of his ministers knows precisely who made the private security company call... well, Knackers, for your political survival you'd better bloody find out!
Baggers..60 million on private security or close to it spent and know one knows anything about it???....someone authorized that money to be spent.  Its either incompetence or straight lying and either way the Government has to go, problem is the opposition and other parties are clueless, faceless no hopers as well.
60 mill could have been spent on the hospital workers getting proper PPE gear and not the cheap Chinese shizen carp they ended up with..source Frankston hospital staff.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 25, 2020, 07:15:26 pm
I couldn't and I wouldn't... in fact I'm pretty p1ssed off with this entire charade now, we've all been let down badly by this bullsh1t. Dan reckons it's unacceptable that none of his ministers knows precisely who made the private security company call... well, Knackers, for your political survival you'd better bloody find out!
Thats the public service for you, non accountable, entitled and think it's all big joke. If 800 people didnt die, it would be laughable. Instead, its very serious but nothing will come of it, may a Mikakos might get the Khyber but dont hold your breath.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 25, 2020, 08:42:08 pm
What if we get a 3rd wave? Would you trust this bunch to get it right?

Among a number of others, I was right there with this govt when they slammed the brakes on the initial outbreak. Ripper. But the 2nd outbreak has revealed incompetence and lies. As I posted earlier, FFS the Federal Govt must assume central control of future pandemics and hand control to the military and science/medicos. When real leadership is required, pollies have shown they're not up to it... and ScoMo needn't be so smug, remember him holidaying whilst lives were being lost in fires? He apologized... good, and got into action. Now, Dan, you've apologized... but now you have to act, decisively and with clinical objectivity, unless you're a part of the problem - and if you don't act, then we know you likely are.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 25, 2020, 08:55:45 pm
Cock up of the highest order.

Greatest public health f.... up in Australian history.

Killed close to 800, destroyed the State economy and 1000s of businesses, lives and livelihoods.

Many heads must roll. Including Dopey's.

And sure, they've lined up Mikakos in the first instance.

Anyone who thinks he really doesn't know needs help.

Whoa Nellie. Roll back the drama there FB.

Yes, there has been a serious and incredibly stupid betrayal of public trust and there must be accountability. But your obvious political bias is blinding you I suggest. The Victoria economy has not been destroyed to isolate just one of your dramatic assertions. Damaged? Yes, but never, ever, underestimate the indomitable spirit and resilience of the Australian people. Despite the stupidity and incompetence of many politicians (all sides) and many greedy banking/corporate leaders, we've recovered from their breathtaking inabilities, and will again.

Park your emotive disdain for Dan Andrews for a moment. And your obvious personal hatred for the bloke is obvious, however... have a bit of trust in those who will rebuild, over time, the VIC economy - us. There's a challenge in front of us, well, two... firstly, isolate and reveal exactly who the liars are in this state Govt, then let's get on with rebuilding the place.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 25, 2020, 09:41:07 pm
There's a challenge in front of us, well, two... firstly, isolate and reveal exactly who the liars are in this state Govt, then let's get on with rebuilding the place.
Thats easy, all of em.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Swan43 on September 25, 2020, 11:29:03 pm
Difficulty is that we have an equally incompetent and corrupt opposition. Bit like the Poms last election. Putrid choice. That said, it's generally politically healthier to turn governments over. They never learn or renew otherwise. That is unless they're fixated with fighting for the spoils of defeat. Like the Libs. Wish it was otherwise.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 26, 2020, 07:27:30 am
Baggers..60 million on private security or close to it spent and know one knows anything about it???....someone authorized that money to be spent.  Its either incompetence or straight lying and either way the Government has to go, problem is the opposition and other parties are clueless, faceless no hopers as well.
60 mill could have been spent on the hospital workers getting proper PPE gear and not the cheap Chinese shizen carp they ended up with..source Frankston hospital staff.
EB I read somewhere the figure was $92M.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 26, 2020, 07:44:41 am
What if we get a 3rd wave? Would you trust this bunch to get it right?

Among a number of others, I was right there with this govt when they slammed the brakes on the initial outbreak. Ripper. But the 2nd outbreak has revealed incompetence and lies. As I posted earlier, FFS the Federal Govt must assume central control of future pandemics and hand control to the military and science/medicos. When real leadership is required, pollies have shown they're not up to it... and ScoMo needn't be so smug, remember him holidaying whilst lives were being lost in fires? He apologized... good, and got into action. Now, Dan, you've apologized... but now you have to act, decisively and with clinical objectivity, unless you're a part of the problem - and if you don't act, then we know you likely are.
Baggers who is responsible for Quarantine, Federal or State? A mate suggested it was a Fed Gov responsibility but as I understand, Fed Gov is responsible for quarantine from a border security/surveillance  point of view. The issue the orders to quarantine (say people as an eg) but State Govs are responsible of administering and managing it to to protect the health and safety of the public. There is the Quarantine Act but there is also the National Health Security Arrangement and the responsibilities are spelt out there. I think there are structures in place, the fed gov, states and territories need to work together. I believe they did right up until the hotel quarantine decision to use private security was made by Casper the Friendly Ghost it seems.
Some light reading here:

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/health-emergencies/australia.php

This bit

II.  Structure of Public Health Crisis Management System
A.  Federal Laws and National Agreements
In addition to the states and territories having residual legislative powers in relation to health care, the management of emergencies is also not generally a matter for which the federal government may give directions to states and territories under the Constitution.  Therefore, “cooperative and collaborative mechanisms” between these levels of government are needed for the strategic coordination of responses to national emergencies, including public health crises.[11]

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 26, 2020, 08:28:10 am
Whoa Nellie. Roll back the drama there FB.

Yes, there has been a serious and incredibly stupid betrayal of public trust and there must be accountability. But your obvious political bias is blinding you I suggest. The Victoria economy has not been destroyed to isolate just one of your dramatic assertions. Damaged? Yes, but never, ever, underestimate the indomitable spirit and resilience of the Australian people. Despite the stupidity and incompetence of many politicians (all sides) and many greedy banking/corporate leaders, we've recovered from their breathtaking inabilities, and will again.

Park your emotive disdain for Dan Andrews for a moment. And your obvious personal hatred for the bloke is obvious, however... have a bit of trust in those who will rebuild, over time, the VIC economy - us. There's a challenge in front of us, well, two... firstly, isolate and reveal exactly who the liars are in this state Govt, then let's get on with rebuilding the place.

Try again baggers.

I haven't voted Liberal in over 2 decades....

I just despise arrogance and incompetence.

A dangerous mix.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 26, 2020, 08:45:04 am
Unfortunately as I see things currently there doesn't seem to be anyone on the horizon who may lead us out of this mess. Only bigots, corrupt politicians, loonies, incompetents, opportunists............
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 26, 2020, 08:50:04 am
Unfortunately as I see things currently there doesn't seem to be anyone on the horizon who may lead us out of this mess. Only bigots, corrupt politicians, loonies, incompetents, opportunists............
You're spot cookie, these are the worst bunch of polies (all parties) that I have seen ever in Victoria. Its an utter disgrace, I would feed any of them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 26, 2020, 09:45:53 am
Jenny Mikakos has stood down.
It was pretty obvious from yesterday's statements this was going to happen, but it is a good thing, because she was absolutely inept.

And it it... she was pretty damning of Andrews, making it clear she felt like she had been thrown under the bus by him
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EizD44rVoAIWeUO?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on September 26, 2020, 09:52:36 am
Jenny Mikakos has stood down.
It was pretty obvious from yesterday's statements this was going to happen, but it is a good thing, because she was absolutely inept.

And it it... she was pretty damning of Andrews, making it clear she felt like she had been thrown under the bus by him

She was thrown under a bus by the same person who was driving it.  Her tweet which I couldn't copy was telling and obviously not cleared by the premier.  The faceless pen pushers should also be the ones falling on their swords but that never happens.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 26, 2020, 09:53:44 am
She was thrown under a bus by the same person who was driving it.  Her tweet which I couldn't copy was telling and obviously not cleared by the premier.  The faceless pen pushers should also be the ones falling on their swords but that never happens.
I modified my post to include her statement
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 26, 2020, 10:02:18 am
Good !!  Waste of space ... and this'll have wider repercussions.  So it should
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 26, 2020, 10:08:18 am
She threw a few barbs. As she should.

Cracks have started to appear....who's next?

Andrews will sacrifice anyone to save his own neck.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 26, 2020, 10:31:38 am
Take this with a grain of salt, because I cannot confirm the voracity of the source, but...
There is talk Tim Pallas will be the leader, possibly by as early as tomorrow, but at the latest next week. With the supposed "word" being that Pallas has the numbers and so Dan will resign citing "family reasons" in a bloodless coup.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on September 26, 2020, 10:42:06 am
Take this with a grain of salt, because I cannot confirm the voracity of the source, but...
There is talk Tim Pallas will be the leader, possibly by as early as tomorrow, but at the latest next week. With the supposed "word" being that Pallas has the numbers and so Dan will resign citing "family reasons" in a bloodless coup.

The depth of talent in state parliament has always been shallow and if Tim transurban Pallas is next in line god help us.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 26, 2020, 10:48:22 am
And don't tell me..........Pakula in the health portfolio!!!!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 26, 2020, 11:51:49 am
Take this with a grain of salt, because I cannot confirm the voracity of the source, but...
There is talk Tim Pallas will be the leader, possibly by as early as tomorrow, but at the latest next week. With the supposed "word" being that Pallas has the numbers and so Dan will resign citing "family reasons" in a bloodless coup.
That has been swirling around for weeks. I have mates on both sides of the political fence and they have been been saying this.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 26, 2020, 11:52:22 am
And don't tell me..........Pakula in the health portfolio!!!!!
Pakula will be next to go.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on September 26, 2020, 12:10:35 pm
Agree.  I wonder when the federal health minister will also resign.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 26, 2020, 12:23:50 pm
The depth of talent in state parliament has always been shallow and if Tim transurban Pallas is next in line god help us.

Let's see the Chinese contracts Timmy >:D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 26, 2020, 01:54:28 pm
Anyone who thinks some political change can resolve the COVID situation is fooling themselves, votes don't stop a virus. Neither does having a fat wallet, just ask Donald Trump's brother!

The terrible situations unfolding in Sweden and the UK is enough evidence of that being too optimistic can be very detrimental, these are the places the COVID naysayers held high as examples of doing it right, and now the very sames regions are sliding into COVID infamy! FFS, the UK just announce £18000 fines ($32000) for quarantine breakers, as here we complain about police handing out $1500 fines locally!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 26, 2020, 02:00:37 pm
Im still of the firm belief it wont make a difference.

Im surprised we haven't had wide spread covid outbreaks across the nation at this stage.  Its only a matter of time IMHO and no procedures or quarantine will stop it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 26, 2020, 02:38:34 pm
Anyone who thinks some political change can resolve the COVID situation is fooling themselves, votes don't stop a virus. Neither does having a fat wallet, just ask Donald Trump's brother!

The terrible situations unfolding in Sweden and the UK is enough evidence of that being too optimistic can be very detrimental, these are the places the COVID naysayers held high as examples of doing it right, and now the very sames regions are sliding into COVID infamy! FFS, the UK just announce £18000 fines ($32000) for quarantine breakers, as here we complain about police handing out $1500 fines locally!

What "terrible situation" in the UK and Sweden?

Positive tests in a low prevalence population are more likely to be false positives than real positives, not to mention a positive test can also be a result of the person having had the virus up to a few months previously....

All that really matters is mortality and that's where fear mongers like you fall flat on their faces.

Cases, in isolation, mean jack.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 26, 2020, 03:43:21 pm
What "terrible situation" in the UK and Sweden?
Positive tests in a low prevalence population are more likely to be false positives than real positives, not to mention a positive test can also be a result of the person having had the virus up to a few months previously....

All that really matters is mortality and that's where fear mongers like you fall flat on their faces.

Cases, in isolation, mean jack.
Testing positive for COVID infection is not the same as testing positive to anti-bodies weeks or months later, that is a mashup of two different tests!

In any case regardless of the numbers tests being false positive is a good thing, the tests are deliberately designed that way it is not a conspiracy! Some might argue the Hippocratic oath requires it, which means it is better to tell someone they might be sick rather than telling them they aren't sick just before they die!

Technically official false positives are expressed as a fraction of all positives, not as a fraction of all tests. Some sources like to mangle the figures, whether you want to think that is accidental due to ignorance or deliberate is really a matter for the reader.

Reporting "The percentage of false positives from all positives" as "the percentage of false positives from all tests" is pretty misleading, they are two vastly different figures. In one case False positives from all tests might be 0.24%, while false positives from all positives might be 8%. Further complicating the reporting is the fact that multiple testing regimes are used, they do not have the same rate of false positive or sensitivity.

The current rate of change in positives for the UK and Sweden is disastrous for them, the derivative of the infection rate curve, dY/dX for the maths people. It's the change in the rate of infection growth. Things are looking bleak in the UK and Sweden, which is why both regions are now talking drastic action with restrictions even far exceeding Victoria's Stage 4!

Deaths lag infections by about 4 to 7 weeks, the crap is going to get real in those regions and the politicians know it which is why they are talking tough now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 26, 2020, 04:52:51 pm
Take this with a grain of salt, because I cannot confirm the voracity of the source, but...
There is talk Tim Pallas will be the leader, possibly by as early as tomorrow, but at the latest next week. With the supposed "word" being that Pallas has the numbers and so Dan will resign citing "family reasons" in a bloodless coup.

I think he has snuffed this one out pretty quickly today
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 26, 2020, 04:58:08 pm
Apparently Martin Foley will take over from Mikakos.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 26, 2020, 05:06:04 pm
Yeah Dan confirmed that.
Btw his handling of Mikakos... I would suggest if she has any dirt at all on Dan, there is a chance this comes back to bite his arse.
Because he treated her with complete disdain. Now okay, she seems to have screwed up royally and I have no issue with her resigning and it seems absolutely correct on the surface, but... Dan could not wash his hands of her any quicker if he tried.
Amazing to see.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 26, 2020, 05:12:10 pm
I wish we could see what is going down in the bureaucracy, but we may never find out!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on September 26, 2020, 06:03:44 pm
Sorry,
I'm not seeing the problem in Sweden either....
How is it worse than other countries in that area.
They had an horrific run early in the pandemic...apparently they didn't lock down as hard as other countries.
But their numbers and deaths seem to have tapered off.
Are they getting a second wave worse than other places in Europe?



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 26, 2020, 07:27:22 pm
Sorry,
I'm not seeing the problem in Sweden either....
How is it worse than other countries in that area.
They had an horrific run early in the pandemic...apparently they didn't lock down as hard as other countries.
But their numbers and deaths seem to have tapered off.
Are they getting a second wave worse than other places in Europe?


My understanding was that Sweden were not locking down at all.

In fact that were basically ignoring that there even was a pandemic.
If everybody gets it, they don't have a problem.

At least that was their initial plan, i'm not sure if they deviated from it.....but it has merit.....assuming you can't get 'reinfected' and do build up an immunity that is.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 26, 2020, 07:32:04 pm
Sorry,
I'm not seeing the problem in Sweden either....
How is it worse than other countries in that area.
They had an horrific run early in the pandemic...apparently they didn't lock down as hard as other countries.
But their numbers and deaths seem to have tapered off.
Are they getting a second wave worse than other places in Europe?

No, they're not ... nuthin' like France and Spain at least Lods
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 26, 2020, 07:46:37 pm
Sorry,
I'm not seeing the problem in Sweden either....
How is it worse than other countries in that area.
They had an horrific run early in the pandemic...apparently they didn't lock down as hard as other countries.
But their numbers and deaths seem to have tapered off.
Are they getting a second wave worse than other places in Europe?
New infection cases are just starting to spike, so much for herd immunity by attrition! ;)

So now Sweden's domestic politicians are talking regional lock-downs Victoria style. Having suffered horribly in the start with 319 deaths per million, more than tenfold higher than some neighbouring countries to preserve some fiscal posterity, they are now talking about wearing the very same regional pain as other location$. It looks like they have worn a bunch of deaths for nothing basically! The Swedes are spinning it as moving towards controlled and capped restrictions, in effect that is the same failed path that Britain had already tried.

Britain in the meantime has now legislated one of the world's highest personal fines to try and put a brake on the rapidly growing infection rate. My associates in the UK say things are looking very grim as Autumn arrives, especially with the growing number of re-infection cases and no signs of a wide-spread vaccine before mid-2021.

Globally there is a bigger problem, there are a number of studies coming out now showing significant long term cost of moderate COVID infections. These are infections that did not require hospitalisation, "Just a cold" type infections, except a significant percentage of those infected now have signs of heart and lung damage at 3 to 6 months after COVID infection.

Just a cold! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 26, 2020, 08:06:22 pm
For those waiting for a vaccine, as the politicians keep telling us that it is already organised if successfully developed.

I heard a nice summary of the chances of a successful vaccine from an immunologist talking on a Nature or Science Podcast.

Vaccine in trials proceed at the rate of 1 in 10 for each stage, with typically 4 or 5 stages but as many as 6 stages.

So that would mean;
Stage 1; 10% Proceed to Stage 2
Stage 2: 10% Proceed to Stage 3
Stage 3: 10% Proceed to Stage 4
Stage 4 through 6: About 10% Proceed Manufacturing

That is one vaccine out of every ten thousand investigated.

The speaker did reiterate that this will no be the case for the COVID vaccine, why;

Authorities have already conceded they must accept more risk to quickly find viable COVID vaccines!

Also mentioned was the fact that getting a vaccine does not mean being free of infection. Apparently many vaccines can reduce or eliminate the symptoms, but still leave the person open to be infected and capable of transmitting the virus to others, which is a major reasons many vaccines fail late in clinical trials, the vaccine makes you a super-spreader because you get infected without getting sick!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 26, 2020, 08:10:23 pm
For those waiting for a vaccine, as the politicians keep telling us that it is already organised if successfully developed.

I heard a nice summary of the chances of a successful vaccine from an immunologist talking on a Nature or Science Podcast.

Vaccine in trials proceed at the rate of 1 in 10 for each stage, with typically 4 or 5 stages.

 So that would mean;
Stage 1; 10% Proceed to Stage 2
Stage 2: 10% Proceed to Stage 3
Stage 3: 10% Proceed to Stage 4
Stage 4 through 6: About 10% Proceed Manufacture

That is one vaccine out of every ten thousand investigated.

The speaker did reiterate that this will no be the case for the COVID vaccine, why;

Things may be sped up a bit due to the start of a vaccine for SARS a decade (or so) ago. Very similar diseases, so have a bit of a head start of sorts.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 26, 2020, 08:13:59 pm
Things may be sped up a bit due to the start of a vaccine for SARS a decade (or so) ago. Very similar diseases, so have a bit of a head start of sorts.
The two major candidate vaccines are using techniques never used ever before, there is no precedent for them. The conventional pathways are not going to be delivering vaccines anytime soon.

I heard a researcher who had worked on the original SARS, in fact their programme to develop a vaccine was cancelled a few years after the SARS outbreak subsided. They said even if it had not been cancelled they still might not have a viable vaccine 14 years later, but they felt they would have been much better placed with background knowledge to deal with SARs-CoV-2, of course the programme was cut to save money!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 26, 2020, 08:15:14 pm
The two major candidate vaccines are using techniques never used ever before.
Obviously you don't have to follow the same path, but i suspect some do.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 26, 2020, 09:23:18 pm
The fairer comparison is to compare Sweden with it's Nordic neighbours.
On this comparison, it has endured a shocking death toll and a shocking case rate (and the unknown long term effects of that).
It has seen a big jump recently in cases and it doesn't have herd immunity. It needs 60-70% of the population to have herd immunity, if the virus does not mutate over the next year or so and outsmart the antibodies, or if the antibodies don't begin to disappear (which there is some evidence it does).

To have herd immunity it would require infections to be at least 8x higher than they have been, which of course is possible as we know that the true number is not really reflected in the positive test number, but the new rise in infections suggest that herd immunity has clearly not been achieved.

Now they are talking lockdowns, I would suggest losing close to 6,000 lives based purely on the strategy you undertook could be declared a disaster

CountryCasesDeathsPopulationCases Per MillDeaths Per MillTests Per Mill
Norway13,5452705,431,2542,49450186,167
Finland 9,577 3435,542,7771,72862173,227
Sweden90,923 5,88010,114,1848,990 581151,533
Denmark 25,5946475,797,0584,415112622,430
Iceland 2,56110341,767   7,49329786,609
Comparison
Australia27,015 87025,569,269 1,05734 293,979
Ans of course we should have had MUCH less, 50-70% less at least
You were 17x more likely to die from this virus if you were in Sweden, than if you were in Australia
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 26, 2020, 11:31:54 pm
It's not just the verified case count that is an issue, the number of infections exceeds the number of detections by some ratio.

Locally I heard a expert on radio state they think in Australia we only detect about 23% of infections, I haven't heard what the baseline is globally, but apparently Australia is quite good because we've tested about 1/3 of the population. That means here real infections could be 3x or 4x the detection rate.

When the number of test per head of population increase the detections increase, like Denmark and Iceland, where they have tested a large portion of the population, 60% or 70%

Now think of Sweden, where the death are almost an order of magnitude higher than Australia, Sweden's case detections exceed Denmark or Iceland but Sweden's testing is less than 15%! :o

Of course it's complicated because not everyone lives in the same geospacial, geosocial or economic conditions.

A lot of people put the stock in the graphs, but the graphs lag real-time by about 7 to 14 days, again based on an average some regions are faster others slower.

Detections always lag behind infections, if detections rise regularly at all, then infections are already on the steeper growth curve!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on September 26, 2020, 11:52:43 pm
Don't for one minute think I'm underestimating the effects of this disease.
At 66 with heart and kidney issues I can't afford to get it.
I've been pretty much housebound for six months.
I'm still reluctant to stray far from home and I keep a record of all the places I've visited.
...and I'm currently living in QLD with very few active cases

The suggestion was that Sweden and the UK are heading for a world of pain.
I'm wondering whether they'll be any worse off than other European nations.

I'm not doubting Sweden adopted a poor strategy in the beginning.
I'm just curious as to how they will go long term.

So Sweden...yep, poor during the first wave.
But let's put those first wave stats aside for one minute.
At the moment we're seeing a rising trend in their second wave but how are they comparing  with others second time around
Are they(will they be) any worse off in their second wave than others.

The charts I'm looking at show a dozen nations with greater numbers of deaths per million than Sweden.
Are we singling them out because they seemed to follow a different strategy?


.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 27, 2020, 07:09:46 am
Lods you could be right, it is possible they are being singled out, but then the comparisons are interesting.

So Spain and Italy (as an example) we know part of their high original death tolls can be attributed to underestimating the power of this disease to cause the chaos it has, they were hit earliest and I think any country hit in this way was going to suffer a similar fate.
The other thing about these countries is that besides sharing land borders with other continental countries, they have high numbers of immigrants coming through unchecked from Africa, which means there is no quarantine for many of these people and if they have the virus it is going through unchecked. Not only is it going through unchecked, but if one person on an overcrowded boat makes it to those lands undetected, then that entire boat will almost certainly be infected also. This creates a situation where each fresh boat has the potential to be another wave starter.

Sweden on the other hand shares a land border with Finland (7 day average 90) and Norway (7 day average 111) whilst maintaining a 7 day average currently of 298.
It does share a bridge with Denmark (7 day average 535), which Denmark have restricted entry to from Sweden, but Sweden has to my knowledge left open. Freight traffic is still open both ways.
Denmark being a continental (thought Nordic) country of course shares a land border with Germany (7 day average 1780).

The reason for bringing that all up is that with less migration to Scandinavian countries than continental countries, there is less unchecked travel through borders and less chance for the virus to spread. England should have less issues as they have the ability to restrict traffic (as we do), but being a "destination" country there are also more attempts at illegal entry and all the problems that come with that, especially as until mid August they had removed the 14 day quarantine between itself and France (which by the way is self-quarantine). Why the UK didn't go into harder lockdowns I really don't know they left themselves on the precipice of a huge outbreak by sitting in a middle ground and hoped it would die out. It seems quite idiotic when you think about how they brought it down from 5,000 a day to 500 (about our average here at out peak), but started to ease restrictions, in that time is has increased 10 fold.

With regards to a dozen countries having worst death tolls per million than Sweden, this is true.. but it's neighbours are all between 60-100 ranking for deaths per million and sitting 14th (12th if you remove countries of less than 100,000 population) is not really a glowing endorsement.

You are right though, I feel like Sweden is being specifically judged because they made the decision that the financial importance was greater than the importance of life. There is no doubt they could have reduced their death toll by at least 70%, or if human terms at least 4,000 lives were sacrificed in an attempt to let the rest of the country live their lives. When you make a decision like that, you need to come out a clear winner, which Sweden hasn't done and it has resulted to them considering lockdown measures..

The UK has clearly mishandled their crisis, they are a destination country for sure, but they had fair warning, whilst most people who had the virus upon hitting continental Europe will have likely passed the worst of it by the time they setup in the Calais region to try and cross to England, there will be a lot that have picked it up during their travels from the south of Europe up to Calais and I suspect these camps often have large numbers of infections due to the transient nature of the people passing through there. Still, they should have been able to control their case load much better than they have and I don't know why they have not locked down through each county with hard lockdowns and tried to grow from there.

So yes continental countries are suffering worse than Sweden, but it is still suffering worse than it to land border  neighbours.

To be honest though, I would not want to be in any European country right now. Even Austria who, in my opinion, handled the first wave better than pretty well any other European country (along with maybe Norway) is suffering a lot at the moment. It is not surprising, it is a landlocked country with 8 borders and a number of those countries are exploding. Their deaths per million despite this are 87 (ranked 70th).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 27, 2020, 08:37:31 am
Don't for one minute think I'm underestimating the effects of this disease.
At 66 with heart and kidney issues I can't afford to get it.
I've been pretty much housebound for six months.
I'm still reluctant to stray far from home and I keep a record of all the places I've visited.
...and I'm currently living in QLD with very few active cases

The suggestion was that Sweden and the UK are heading for a world of pain.
I'm wondering whether they'll be any worse off than other European nations.

I'm not doubting Sweden adopted a poor strategy in the beginning.
I'm just curious as to how they will go long term.

So Sweden...yep, poor during the first wave.
But let's put those first wave stats aside for one minute.
At the moment we're seeing a rising trend in their second wave but how are they comparing  with others second time around
Are they(will they be) any worse off in their second wave than others.

The charts I'm looking at show a dozen nations with greater numbers of deaths per million than Sweden.
Are we singling them out because they seemed to follow a different strategy?


.

The few sources of information I have seen on Sweden has them faring much worse during the second wave than their Nordic neighbours based on trend.

We wont know until we know for sure but data is coming out to show that herd immunity is impossible to achieve and they did take some lockdown measures but think of us in June and that was closer to what they did.  Businesses and schools open.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 27, 2020, 08:41:21 am
Lods you could be right, it is possible they are being singled out, but then the comparisons are interesting.

So Spain and Italy (as an example) we know part of their high original death tolls can be attributed to underestimating the power of this disease to cause the chaos it has, they were hit earliest and I think any country hit in this way was going to suffer a similar fate.
The other thing about these countries is that besides sharing land borders with other continental countries, they have high numbers of immigrants coming through unchecked from Africa, which means there is no quarantine for many of these people and if they have the virus it is going through unchecked. Not only is it going through unchecked, but if one person on an overcrowded boat makes it to those lands undetected, then that entire boat will almost certainly be infected also. This creates a situation where each fresh boat has the potential to be another wave starter.

Sweden on the other hand shares a land border with Finland (7 day average 90) and Norway (7 day average 111) whilst maintaining a 7 day average currently of 298.
It does share a bridge with Denmark (7 day average 535), which Denmark have restricted entry to from Sweden, but Sweden has to my knowledge left open. Freight traffic is still open both ways.
Denmark being a continental (thought Nordic) country of course shares a land border with Germany (7 day average 1780).

The reason for bringing that all up is that with less migration to Scandinavian countries than continental countries, there is less unchecked travel through borders and less chance for the virus to spread. England should have less issues as they have the ability to restrict traffic (as we do), but being a "destination" country there are also more attempts at illegal entry and all the problems that come with that, especially as until mid August they had removed the 14 day quarantine between itself and France (which by the way is self-quarantine). Why the UK didn't go into harder lockdowns I really don't know they left themselves on the precipice of a huge outbreak by sitting in a middle ground and hoped it would die out. It seems quite idiotic when you think about how they brought it down from 5,000 a day to 500 (about our average here at out peak), but started to ease restrictions, in that time is has increased 10 fold.

With regards to a dozen countries having worst death tolls per million than Sweden, this is true.. but it's neighbours are all between 60-100 ranking for deaths per million and sitting 14th (12th if you remove countries of less than 100,000 population) is not really a glowing endorsement.

You are right though, I feel like Sweden is being specifically judged because they made the decision that the financial importance was greater than the importance of life. There is no doubt they could have reduced their death toll by at least 70%, or if human terms at least 4,000 lives were sacrificed in an attempt to let the rest of the country live their lives. When you make a decision like that, you need to come out a clear winner, which Sweden hasn't done and it has resulted to them considering lockdown measures..

The UK has clearly mishandled their crisis, they are a destination country for sure, but they had fair warning, whilst most people who had the virus upon hitting continental Europe will have likely passed the worst of it by the time they setup in the Calais region to try and cross to England, there will be a lot that have picked it up during their travels from the south of Europe up to Calais and I suspect these camps often have large numbers of infections due to the transient nature of the people passing through there. Still, they should have been able to control their case load much better than they have and I don't know why they have not locked down through each county with hard lockdowns and tried to grow from there.

So yes continental countries are suffering worse than Sweden, but it is still suffering worse than it to land border  neighbours.

To be honest though, I would not want to be in any European country right now. Even Austria who, in my opinion, handled the first wave better than pretty well any other European country (along with maybe Norway) is suffering a lot at the moment. It is not surprising, it is a landlocked country with 8 borders and a number of those countries are exploding. Their deaths per million despite this are 87 (ranked 70th).

My brother lives in London.  UK strategy is being dictated by BREXIT.  they're trying not to inflict more damage to their economy because they have a very bleak outlook before covid19 hit and he seems to think things are about to really go pear shaped.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 27, 2020, 09:40:25 am
The few sources of information I have seen on Sweden has them faring much worse during the second wave than their Nordic neighbours based on trend.

We wont know until we know for sure but data is coming out to show that herd immunity is impossible to achieve and they did take some lockdown measures but think of us in June and that was closer to what they did.  Businesses and schools open.

Really?

There is a lot of evidence to show that herd immunity is very much achievable...and at much lower thresholds than we originally thought was needed.

The Brit Nic Lewis wrote a great paper (tying in some of the work of Garbriela Gomes).

https://www.nicholaslewis.org/herd-immunity-to-covid-19-and-pre-existing-immune-responses/

Several of the great minds in the relevant field agree.

Start with  Sunetra Gupta.

One example, from a very level headed lady - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbvO4sUg1eA

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 27, 2020, 09:45:48 am
The fairer comparison is to compare Sweden with it's Nordic neighbours.
On this comparison, it has endured a shocking death toll and a shocking case rate (and the unknown long term effects of that).
It has seen a big jump recently in cases and it doesn't have herd immunity. It needs 60-70% of the population to have herd immunity, if the virus does not mutate over the next year or so and outsmart the antibodies, or if the antibodies don't begin to disappear (which there is some evidence it does).

To have herd immunity it would require infections to be at least 8x higher than they have been, which of course is possible as we know that the true number is not really reflected in the positive test number, but the new rise in infections suggest that herd immunity has clearly not been achieved.

Now they are talking lockdowns, I would suggest losing close to 6,000 lives based purely on the strategy you undertook could be declared a disaster

CountryCasesDeathsPopulationCases Per MillDeaths Per MillTests Per Mill
Norway13,5452705,431,2542,49450186,167
Finland 9,577 3435,542,7771,72862173,227
Sweden90,923 5,88010,114,1848,990 581151,533
Denmark 25,5946475,797,0584,415112622,430
Iceland 2,56110341,767   7,49329786,609
Comparison
Australia27,015 87025,569,269 1,05734 293,979
Ans of course we should have had MUCH less, 50-70% less at least
You were 17x more likely to die from this virus if you were in Sweden, than if you were in Australia

https://www.aier.org/article/swedens-high-covid-death-rates-among-the-nordics-dry-tinder-and-other-important-factors/

and a great recent piece from Ivor Cummins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UvFhIFzaac&t=745s
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 27, 2020, 10:42:17 am
An article on News.com reveals its the Commissioner Ashton who is largely responsible for private security being used. He didnt want Police "babysitting" returned travellers. My question is, why didnt the police minister tell the silly old kent to pull his head in and do as he was told?

https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/australia/tapes-solve-the-mystery-of-victorias-covid-hotel-whodunit/news-story/68067f4af991a8dc15a962c5173a8283
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 27, 2020, 10:50:03 am
Actually GTC I don't think it would have been appropriate for police to be looking after quarantine.  Maybe PSOs would have been ok but if the ADF was offered ????

This whole affair reeks of a massive internal squabble within the government and a subsequent very amateurish cover up.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 27, 2020, 11:43:51 am
Actually GTC I don't think it would have been appropriate for police to be looking after quarantine.  Maybe PSOs would have been ok but if the ADF was offered ????

This whole affair reeks of a massive internal squabble within the government and a subsequent very amateurish cover up.

Not sure I agree about not appropriate.
The resources dedicated to maintaining quarantine etc far outweigh the resourcing that would have been required for babysitting.
Well unless there is another objection?

But of course what this doesn't speak to, is that of course the police could have also made mistakes and the ADF also.

It was just less likely they would when you compare to untrained security.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 27, 2020, 11:59:08 am
https://www.aier.org/article/swedens-high-covid-death-rates-among-the-nordics-dry-tinder-and-other-important-factors/

and a great recent piece from Ivor Cummins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UvFhIFzaac&t=745s

I watched a bit of it, but it turned me off quite quickly.

I wonder flyboy so you believe that masks have no impact on disease control in general or no impact on the transmission of covid?
Also the same goes for lockdowns?
Do you think that there have been more deaths from covid compared to other viruses?

See the reality is this guy is  picking out statistic that suit his agenda (well this is not so abnormal) and saying here is proof, whether the statistics are all accurate or not. There is a lot of "denier" material out there, much as there is a lot of material to suggest 9/11 was an insider job, man never walked on the moon etc.

The problem is I don't agree with them and I don't have the time or energy to look at each... If I was seeing statistical anomalies that made me question the data. made me question the efficacy of masks and lockdowns, then yes I would be looking for answers in these place and questioning potentially, but everything I am seeing from a statistical point of view suggests the lockdowns, and the stage 3 restrictions with masks before them, are effective. They are reducing numbers at reliably predictable rate. So I don't have a reason for throwing an alternative view in, because the data matches the hypothesis.

I can tell by your posts you read a lot, you research your data and I am not trying to be dismissive, I just have an alternate view and it is not dissimilar if I was a democrat and someone said, you need to watch Fox News, they really have the answers...

But I appreciate you taking the time to post, I did look at for a few minutes
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 27, 2020, 12:12:35 pm
Not sure I agree about not appropriate.
The resources dedicated to maintaining quarantine etc far outweigh the resourcing that would have been required for babysitting.
Well unless there is another objection?

But of course what this doesn't speak to, is that of course the police could have also made mistakes and the ADF also.

It was just less likely they would when you compare to untrained security.

I think "babysitting " was used metaphorically not literally. PSOs would have been OK imo.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 27, 2020, 12:26:29 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3BchOPjV34
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 27, 2020, 12:40:23 pm
Really?

There is a lot of evidence to show that herd immunity is very much achievable...and at much lower thresholds than we originally thought was needed.

The Brit Nic Lewis wrote a great paper (tying in some of the work of Garbriela Gomes).

https://www.nicholaslewis.org/herd-immunity-to-covid-19-and-pre-existing-immune-responses/

Several of the great minds in the relevant field agree.

Start with  Sunetra Gupta.

One example, from a very level headed lady - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbvO4sUg1eA


herd immunity only works if you actually achieve immunity.  Reinfection means herd immunity is temporary hence impossible.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 27, 2020, 12:40:46 pm
Sorry but I hate Sky, but anyway..
But I don't know why Sweden is being compared to NYC and UK in regards to when they leveled out to zero deaths, but certainly if you compare it to say Norway and Finland (I would have thought more appropriate comparisons) they took much longer to level out and their peak deaths were considerably higher.

If Australia had 230,000+ cases and 14,000 deaths, but we didn't have the lockdown, are you actually suggesting this is preferable?
I may be misreading you, but if you are suggesting there should not have been a lockdown that is a corresponding response based on population
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 27, 2020, 01:52:42 pm
What was the point of getting rid of the curfew if you can't go anywhere?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 27, 2020, 01:57:34 pm
What was the point of getting rid of the curfew if you can't go anywhere?



Late night shopping/food runs.

No longer need ubereats etc
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 27, 2020, 02:15:24 pm
Late night shopping/food runs.

No longer need ubereats etc

Yeah I agree, it was exactly about that..
Not getting a huge fine because you run out of milk in the middle of the night and want a coffee or smoke etc.
This may not seem like a significant change, but removal of the curfew does still bring significant upside.

Not that I agree with the restrictions on allowing a very small number of guests, I would have thought this was a reasonable option, but ... the answer that even with small numbers there is no masks being worn and it can still easily transmit is reasonable.

Overall, I thought today's announcements lacked in a few areas, but it did also deliver in a few areas. I am extremely happy to see the arbitrary date of 4 weeks removed, the answer on the golf course and tennis courts seems pretty average (though golf cannot easily be played in 2 hours (for 9 holes) if a course is busy, which they would be.

More positives than negatives out of today's press conference
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 27, 2020, 02:58:52 pm
You’re never going to please everyone.

I find it astonishing that people really needed to be out after 9pm with f all open anyway - we have two kids and so weren’t only organising having dinner sorted or milk in the fridge for ourselves but our kids too.  But anyway it just shows everyone will whine about something, and then when that changes they whine about something else.

Wasn’t the point of the curfew to restrict movement and give the police an easier time of being able to keep track of people doing the right thing - ie 5km radius, not visiting other households etc?

If the worst thing happening in your life atm is not being able to fish or play golf, you’re doing ok. Hang in there, we’re almost at the end  O:-)

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on September 27, 2020, 06:56:54 pm
So,  easing restrictions means  essentially tomorrow is going to be just like today I. E.  No change.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 27, 2020, 07:00:43 pm
Im not sure what everyone was expecting.   I know my mother in law in textiles manufacturing and certain other industries are returning to work tomorrow and they haven't been working for 8 weeks.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 27, 2020, 07:07:26 pm
So,  easing restrictions means  essentially tomorrow is going to be just like today I. E.  No change.

127,000 people able to go back to work.
No curfew
Schools back (when its not school holidays)

That's a fair change isn't it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 27, 2020, 08:04:03 pm
I agree with you Kruddler and in any case I am not completely for just opening everything up.
There are some things that I think are probably a little tighter than they need to be, but getting some people back to work, giving back a little freedom and at the same time keeping a tight line on the virus seems a pretty decent compromise.

I think the 5 number is a bit of an issue and as someone just pointed out to me, it means two parents and their child cannot meet up with 2 other parents and their child for exercise/playing in the park... that does seem quite ridiculous when kids and their parents can all go to the pool.

Also whilst 21 days still seems a bit longer than is actually needed to be able to read the impacts of previous changes (between about 15-18 days is enough), I can at least understand the decision making being based on the numbers, so it is acceptable, whereas the 28 days was absolutely not.
I would have also preferred to see something along the lines of the 5km limit replaced with within the same postcode or withing 5km of your home, I think against this would be a little more reasonable.

But overall as I said earlier, I think there is more good than bad in today's new personally
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 27, 2020, 08:31:03 pm
I agree with you Kruddler and in any case I am not completely for just opening everything up.
There are some things that I think are probably a little tighter than they need to be, but getting some people back to work, giving back a little freedom and at the same time keeping a tight line on the virus seems a pretty decent compromise.

I think the 5 number is a bit of an issue and as someone just pointed out to me, it means two parents and their child cannot meet up with 2 other parents and their child for exercise/playing in the park... that does seem quite ridiculous when kids and their parents can all go to the pool.

Also whilst 21 days still seems a bit longer than is actually needed to be able to read the impacts of previous changes (between about 15-18 days is enough), I can at least understand the decision making being based on the numbers, so it is acceptable, whereas the 28 days was absolutely not.
I would have also preferred to see something along the lines of the 5km limit replaced with within the same postcode or withing 5km of your home, I think against this would be a little more reasonable.

But overall as I said earlier, I think there is more good than bad in today's new personally

re the number of days....there is never going to be major changes midweek, so its either 14 or 21 days.

Going back to the mathematics vs logistics argument ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 27, 2020, 08:52:31 pm
The reactions and actions are asymmetric, but it's not due to any conspiracy or complicit behaviour.

The sanctions develop in days because detection lags infection, so things turn bad in just 48 or 72 hrs as infections grow exponentially and detection can catch up in 3 or 4 days. Further when we read 100 new cases today, due to the fact we only detect a portion of cases the scientists are thinking 300 or 400 other new cases hide somewhere in the community.

The rate of infection is unrelated to the duration of illness.

Heading the other way at the end of a cluster of infection, it then takes 2 or 3 weeks for sanctions to be unwound due to the need to prove any observed drop in numbers isn't just a bounce or some latency in the figures.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 28, 2020, 09:32:51 am
127,000 people able to go back to work.
No curfew
Schools back (when its not school holidays)

That's a fair change isn't it.

Not really.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 28, 2020, 12:00:09 pm
Hi mio.

Long time.  I largely agree with a lot of what you've written.   Can I ask why you have opted for 7 or 10 days vs 14?

Its hard to disagree with what you've written.   I think we ran out of the first lockdown too fast and paid for it.  We eased 3 times in 3 weeks with 7 days as the target, and it went backwards.


@Thryleon

You asked me this a while ago, I will share something I posted on my facebook page
It is pretty long-winded (about the norm for me  :-[ ) and it is just an example of how the longer average timelines mean it takes longer to determine your outcomes, but also leaves you behind the curve in relation to making relative decisions (imo)

(https://scontent.fmel7-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/120217738_10159055656953760_1181839184017882066_o.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=Rwqd4Ui-I44AX9ohk_x&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel7-1.fna&oh=3525eb62750e9fd89e9b0971c61299c9&oe=5F95D410)

Why lead time and average days in the stats matter..
So I have banged on an on again about the number of days that are being used for the averaging and the number of days needed to determine if the steps are working (to be sure you are not releasing restrictions to early or tightening them too late).
I have been particularly vocal around the 14 days averaging and around the 28 days that was deemed necessary (now reduced to 21 days).
I have tried to do up a little graph that shows this. What this particular graph is showing is decisions made, 7 day average loads, 14 day average loads as well as as where we were at 16 days after a decision and 21 days after a decision.
I was going to add in 28 days after a decision, but decided to leave that out, because it is quite clearly obvious by the data shown above that 28 days is absolutely not a useful piece of data to respond to a virus such as this.
So the first part
7 days vs 14 days.
The problem as shown with this data is that using 14 day averages means your data is always behind the curve, it shows it on the ascending and the descending phase, which means it is difficult to make decisions in a timely manner. On the way down, that might mean keeping restrictions for longer than is required, on the ascending phase it will likely mean that by the time your decisions are made, they need to be much stronger and for longer than what was previously required, we know when this virus cuts loose that every day matters.
With regards to the 7 day averages, I have stated previously that around 14/15-18 days are required to see if the previous steps have been successful, but this is just to conclusively state this, in reality you can already often see these trends forming over the previous days, but the 7 day average show it around this time.
With the 14 day averages as you can see below, 21 is not completely unreasonable, but in reality it should be visible a few days before this.
The other thing with these elongated averages as it makes it difficult to determine if previous steps have impacted the spread.
Take for example if you use a 14 day average after the stage 3 restrictions with mandatory masks were introduced. There is a leveling at around day 16 and a clear drop at day 20, the problem is that this day 20 is also day 10 after the level for restrictions were imposed, is there enough information to draw a clear conclusion that the masks had a serious impact on the virus? Well you can make a case, using that data, but there are questions.
With the 7 day average, we can see a clear turning at around day 13 in this graph and by a few days later (days 15/16) it is conclusive.
Of course these cannot be attributed to the level 4 lockdowns, as they were only introduced 3 days before the worm began turning.
What is also significant is that whilst it is reasonable to make a case that you can see the impact of the level 4 restrictions (you would have expected more of a leveling out), it is also fair to say that the biggest impact was seen when the level 3 restrictions were put in place, which indicates that it is not unreasonable to at least propose that level 3 restrictions with masks is all that is required to manage the situation in the current environment.
Now in any case, 21 days is "acceptable" as a method for monitoring this during the descending phase (clearly 28 days is not), but it does still seem like overkill. People can say, well what is an extra say 3 or 5 or 6 days, well if it is say 5 days now, 5 days the next level and 5 again for the last, it is an extra 2 weeks, so it is still significant, but nothing like the significance of the original dates published.
Anyway, I hope the graph is clear, it's sole intention really is to show the impact of the different timelines on decision making.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 28, 2020, 12:45:35 pm
What is also significant is that whilst it is reasonable to make a case that you can see the impact of the level 4 restrictions (you would have expected more of a leveling out), it is also fair to say that the biggest impact was seen when the level 3 restrictions were put in place, which indicates that it is not unreasonable to at least propose that level 3 restrictions with masks is all that is required to manage the situation in the current environment.
It's great info @mateinone‍ , a representation of the impact between getting an infection and having a detection.

Metrologists always state you can't control what you can't measure, and it has never been more true than in relation to COVID!

We can consider even further in relation to this data, that different COVID tests report results in different time frames, some are 48hrs while others in 5 - 7 days.

Many on here will know having been COVID tested, that a lot of the data at test sites is collected on paperbased forms, these have to go through data entry before they appear in any analysis, a process that can take longer than some tests!

As for the discussing the effect of Stage 3 versus Stage 4. I had always thought if the Norbits had adhere to Stage 3 we would never have needed Stage 4, the Stage 3 restrictions were enough. But we had the defiant minority of Norbits. I suspect Stage 4 came in primarily because of that handful of isolation and quarantine breakers, they(The Dept of Health.) needed a way to control a very vocal minority of Karens and Coreys.

FWIW, I'm glad much heavier fines now exist, and I hope they go hand in hand with much heavier penalties for not paying them!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 28, 2020, 12:47:58 pm

Thats fair @MIO, great analysis, and like you I tend to be long winded (I blame my Greek heritage for this, as its genetic in my family and general cultural.  You are often vying for the spotlight and dont relinquish it when you get it).

I paid attention to what their modelling was stating yesterday.  Most of the rest of the information they discuss is very specific, detailed and usually to do with blame and finger pointing.  For me, I dont find that stuff useful, but others might.  In any case, I was interested specifically at the modelling.

They tend to talk like they make decisions at the top over night.  Which I find interesting. 

The deputy CHO (Allan?) mentioned about the probable outcomes, based on what the modelling (two types) shows.  Generally they point to percentages, and I noted on one occasion, they made mention of if they implement X restrictions on this date, vs this date, the likelihood of resurgence of infection becomes X percentage.  On sunday they mentioned specifically the step we took to lift curfew and restrictions of meeting in public etc etc etc and it became a different likelihood based on date, which is why they have settled on longer rather than shorter to implement the next stage.

I couldnt help and a few things struck me.  1.  Why they didnt look at this last time we unlocked.  2.  The modelling might actually be faulty as it likelihood is that it contains assumptions.  3.  They didnt relax things earlier because the modelling showed a 41% probability of resurgence if they took the measures they have taken today 2 weeks ago.  4.  Why didnt they tell us the probability of resurgence if they follow through with the 23rd as proposed?  The answer might be that the data is delayed and they dont know, but given we are talking probabilities, you can hide behind that anyway.  Probabilities are not actualities, and low probablities of success can still be successful as any chance is better/worse than none. 

What that tells me, is if they have modelled incorrectly, that explains the lag time you are pointing at, and then you have to consider something.  Interpreting those models is probably quite difficult for most people, and also requires a few assumptions to be made.

Thing is, using share price analysis, we can see that models and trends are lagging indicators. 

I think that goes some way to explaining the perceived lack of action.  Even if the modelling analysis was completely up to date, they would have to use current data which is already a few days old and needs them to have a really good grasp on where the surges will come from, and what likelihood of spread we are going to see.  By the time the models are run, and the data is extracted, and then analysed, its likely a few days behind actuals, and therefore already out of date.  Id say the same were true on the way back down which is why we are ahead of schedule on the way out of lockdown.

Thing is, you still have to assume that that is the case to be correct.  If you dont assume, you end up with the exact behaviour the government has shown when choosing to implement things, and why we were both late to apply stage 3, and also applied stage 4 even though the indicators would likely have shown what you did and that it wasnt necessarily required.

What I keep hanging my hat on, is that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.  No one stuffs up on purpose, and that irrespective of what we all think, the lock downs are not a draconian measure solely implemented to cause everyone distress and get them into a communist regime.  They are there to try and simply pull numbers down.  Until the government proves thats not the case, then we have no other real choice but to share that noble aim.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: mateinone on September 28, 2020, 01:11:06 pm

Thing is, you still have to assume that that is the case to be correct.  If you don't assume, you end up with the exact behaviour the government has shown when choosing to implement things, and why we were both late to apply stage 3, and also applied stage 4 even though the indicators would likely have shown what you did and that it wasn't necessarily required.

What I keep hanging my hat on, is that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.  No one stuffs up on purpose, and that irrespective of what we all think, the lock downs are not a draconian measure solely implemented to cause everyone distress and get them into a communist regime.  They are there to try and simply pull numbers down.  Until the government proves that's not the case, then we have no other real choice but to share that noble aim.

The first paragraph here I agree with, I reasonably confident that stage 4 could have been avoided if stage 3 was implemented in a timely manner (and in fact stage 2).

The 2nd, well I agree with this, that the government's only real aim is to get over this nightmare, but I also think it is trying to cover tracks also and because of the poor decisions and responses made during this 2nd wave, the fallout is that Victorian's are not only paying for it with their health (specifically with covid infections), but also with their livelihoods due to the duration of the lockdown.

If the government was more on top of this virus throughout the course of this wave, it is hard to not draw a conclusion that they really have little idea of appropriate levels of sanctions. I feel like they were slow to react, their modelling was poor all along and continues to have issues now and as you have mentioned, I also think this government reacts in the moment. How this long in, the government does not seem to have robust contingencies already  built in that allow it to make decisions immediately upon triggers being met is beyond me. I as staggered that Dan said he was up late Saturday night finalizing Sunday's announcement.
That didn't show me how "hard he is working" (though I am very sure he is), it showed me they don't have a great grasp on this.

Of course the numbers have come down and will continue to and this strategy does work, but currently it is a one trick pony.

Anyway, hopefully this nightmare is over soon for all and there is (as the newest addition to English language) Covid Normal soon.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 28, 2020, 01:23:47 pm
One final point.  I am still gobsmacked, that we dont have a standardised national approach, and Scott Morrison and company are very absent from the running of the nation.

I would have thought that the steps to contain corona virus was a national concern, and sending an email about ADF support was likely a very half arsed measure to document what should have been a directive for the state to implement and one that clearly defined what was the expectation in the quarantine hotels.

Before anyone jumps on me for this, at our hospital accreditation is to do with quality, standards and models of care.  I would think quarantine would have similar checkpoints for everyone to hit, irrespective of public vs private security, whether or not things are done X, Y and Z, and the fact we dont have sound quarantine procedures for someone carrying an infectious disease during a pandemic is ridiculous.

Its just one more step along the way where our politicians have been found wanting.  Dan and co are not absolved in what I am saying here either.  Its just one more step along the way where I feel our national government has let us down.  If anything it speaks for how disconnected our government is from our state.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 28, 2020, 01:29:24 pm
Anyway, hopefully this nightmare is over soon for all and there is (as the newest addition to English language) Covid Normal soon.
SARS-CoV-2 or COVID will wear the label for this, maybe even the Chinese in much the same way the Spanish wore the label for the big Influenza outbreak of the 1920s.

Reality is, there have been a large number of vocal infectious diseases experts warning of this outbreak for almost 4 decades, and they were widely ignored by governments and bureaucracies, Trump and Abbott even cut their research budgets!

The real culprits are the people who have done almost nothing for decades, they have the same crap attitude towards the virus threat that they do towards climate change! That is, they can keep their money in their wallet now and it'll be somebody else's problem later, except this COVID one turned up a bit earlier than the deniers expected!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on September 28, 2020, 01:43:27 pm
SARS-CoV-2 or COVID will wear the label for this, maybe even the Chinese in much the same way the Spanish wore the label for the big Influenza outbreak of the 1920s.

Reality is, there have been a large number of vocal infectious diseases experts warning of this outbreak for almost 4 decades, and they were widely ignored by governments and bureaucracies, Trump and Abbott even cut their research budgets!

The real culprits are the people who have done almost nothing for decades, they have the same crap attitude towards the virus threat that they do towards climate change! That is, they can keep their money in their wallet now and it'll be somebody else's problem later, except this COVID one turned up a bit earlier than the deniers expected!

It's a perfect echo chamber. The populace will decry spending money on anything whose effects are unlikely or not immediately detectable as a waste of money, and governments have no interest in policies that the people won't like.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 28, 2020, 02:18:04 pm
It's a perfect echo chamber. The populace will decry spending money on anything whose effects are unlikely or not immediately detectable as a waste of money, and governments have no interest in policies that the people won't like.
You can see the pressure is mounting on Frydenberg to cut the economic repatriation package, the Hard Right are piling on the pressure to keep government intervention as small as possible and aligned to the Liberal ideology, primarily this must be via a smaller government spend.

"Let the market decide............" ........... who lives or dies, and the dead don't complain or vote!

Economists, perhaps or certainly some with a socialist bent, are already warning of the detrimental effects of being "Too Cheap" but I suspect that cry is already "Too Late"! What is Billion$ now was Million$ in the 1920s, the same mistakes are being made, history repeats. Their may be a few still alive born in that 1920s era, the money the authorities did not spend back then buys someone a luxury car now!

Those in society with little foresight, the charity / miracle seekers, are going to be burnt badly so prepare your front door for some heavy knocking!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 28, 2020, 08:01:13 pm
One final point.  I am still gobsmacked, that we dont have a standardised national approach, and Scott Morrison and company are very absent from the running of the nation.

I would have thought that the steps to contain corona virus was a national concern, and sending an email about ADF support was likely a very half arsed measure to document what should have been a directive for the state to implement and one that clearly defined what was the expectation in the quarantine hotels.

Before anyone jumps on me for this, at our hospital accreditation is to do with quality, standards and models of care.  I would think quarantine would have similar checkpoints for everyone to hit, irrespective of public vs private security, whether or not things are done X, Y and Z, and the fact we dont have sound quarantine procedures for someone carrying an infectious disease during a pandemic is ridiculous.

Its just one more step along the way where our politicians have been found wanting.  Dan and co are not absolved in what I am saying here either.  Its just one more step along the way where I feel our national government has let us down.  If anything it speaks for how disconnected our government is from our state.

With you on this one, 3 Leos.

I've banged on about pandemic handling being centralised to Canberra control but as GTC rightly indicated there are Constitutional considerations... but amendments to Constitutions are very easy to organise.

ScoMo has been Mr Nice Guy with the states and this is to be expected from someone who has been carved out of marketing. He has said some really good, supportive things...

I think the disconnection goes deep. There is now an exposed disconnection from the medical and scientific realities of a pandemic by governments and business alike. I can only repeat myself by saying we need a strong strategy for this and future pandemics that call on science and the military for guidance and containment. AND far greater investment in hospitals to better cope with any sudden high numbers AND thorough, strong public education.

I also believe the disconnect you speak of is embarrassingly apparent within government departments... maybe we've been too comfortable for too long, or our entire system of who gets into government is just sub-standard.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 29, 2020, 06:26:16 pm
I don't like Scott Morrison but unlike our premier he has done a great job through this crisis.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 29, 2020, 06:36:32 pm
I don't like Scott Morrison but unlike our premier he has done a great job through this crisis.
by diverting all international arrivals to Melbourne and washing his hands of it all?

Or by his governments inability to properly run aged care residencies so as to not see an excessive number of old people die from Covid?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 29, 2020, 09:13:11 pm
by diverting all international arrivals to Melbourne and washing his hands of it all?

Or by his governments inability to properly run aged care residencies so as to not see an excessive number of old people die from Covid?
CoVid hopefully is going to help the aged care system improve given all the bad publicity, residents were passing away of neglect and poor resourcing anyway, the public were just not aware of the numbers .A Covid outbreak is not too dissimilar to a gastro outbreak in terms of taking lives as far as aged care goes.
Every Government is the same they just turn their back on the elderly in those homes, its all too hard and too expensive to improve  conditions...you cant close all the bad ones down as there would be nowhere for the residents to go. Hospitals dont want them and they get shunted off to rehab units who shove an NFR sign on them and stick them in palliative.
Its a disgrace and not much better than turning them into biscuits like that movie " Soylent Green"..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 29, 2020, 09:24:22 pm
I don't like Scott Morrison but unlike our premier he has done a great job through this crisis.
He’s hidden behind the premiers, taking potshots here and there to labor states but otherwise done. Whole lot of sweet fa. Guy is an embarrassment to Australia.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 30, 2020, 08:03:16 am
Can't blame Scomo for Dictator Dan's failures.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 30, 2020, 08:06:27 am
He’s hidden behind the premiers, taking potshots here and there to labor states but otherwise done. Whole lot of sweet fa. Guy is an embarrassment to Australia.
I think they are all in a no win scenario.

FWIW, I though ScoMo did OK in the fires, has been a bit bland though-out the later COVID situation but he did great the first time around getting the States and Feds all around a table with the National Cabinet. The problem is the National Cabinet seems to have now fizzled as they all start taking pot shots at each other and have started picking each others pockets.

I suspect the real problem for them all is that things are not likely to go back to normal, it will be COVID normal from here on for a long time and the public will start to get complacent and or defiant. I stated early on, there is a hint of anarchy embedded in the denialists protests, and it's likely to surface further when many realise they might never get back to 100% the way it was.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 30, 2020, 08:09:01 am
Can't blame Scomo for Dictator Dan's failures.
I suppose technically we can actually blame the Feds for the whole lot.

Health related to things like a COVID pandemic is a Federal responsibility, it has been for a long long time, the Feds took the responsibility off the States I think almost 18 years ago! I'm pretty sure it was John Howard that got the ball rolling in 2003 as a response to the original SARS outbreak, the Feds wanted a Unified National approach to this sort of problem.

But they are all complicit, at the moment they are trying to come out on top by pecking at each others bones!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 30, 2020, 09:48:06 am
CoVid hopefully is going to help the aged care system improve given all the bad publicity, residents were passing away of neglect and poor resourcing anyway, the public were just not aware of the numbers .A Covid outbreak is not too dissimilar to a gastro outbreak in terms of taking lives as far as aged care goes.
Every Government is the same they just turn their back on the elderly in those homes, its all too hard and too expensive to improve  conditions...you cant close all the bad ones down as there would be nowhere for the residents to go. Hospitals dont want them and they get shunted off to rehab units who shove an NFR sign on them and stick them in palliative.
Its a disgrace and not much better than turning them into biscuits like that movie " Soylent Green"..

Well said.

I have some first hand experience here, and it's a mixed bag. I'm referring to the fact that my father is in aged care and has been for 3 years. He's 86 and has emphysema - 70 years of smoking. Still drinks a half bottle or so of whiskey a day, but apart from his lungs, all other organs are 'normal'... yep, even his liver - must be the Danish blood, seems to like alcohol (I rarely touch the stuff though). And mentally he's as lucid at 50 years agol

As the medical power of attorney I have plenty to do with the aged care home (BaptCare). The first thing I notice whenever I go into the place is that I can't wait to get out. Depressing. Many of the staff seem to be recent arrivals to Australia and this is an easy employ avenue, sorry if that sounds racist/xenophobic (it aint) but when I am gleaning info on my old man and English is not the first language of the person helping me we immediately have a communication problem... some of these people are just impatient and even rude - they obviously don't like the job. Looking after elderly humans requires special people, very special and a few where the old man is are just bloody brilliant in terms of saint like patience, joyfulness and a genuine deep interest/care. Mixed bag overall.

The overwhelming thing that comes across when walking around the home is the cost cutting. Very little effort re special initiatives to interest and engage the old folks, only the dead basics - many still have their minds and love a chat. More like 'shut them in their rooms, give them their meds, turn on their TV (baby sitter) and leave'. In some respects, crims in prison are engaged more with meaningful tasks.

The meals would be enough for some of us to neck ourselves. Bland and dead basic. And I know it aint easy feeding large numbers of people but (here he goes again about the Navy) the feeds we had in the Navy, whether land base or at sea, we bloody fantastic and plenty of variety. More cost cutting.

It is sad to see how our elderly are accommodated in these aged care homes (care? FO!). Baby sitting with the bare essentials until they cark it seems to be the underlying philosophy, and in the mean time... cha-ching! Most, if not all, of these folks have worked hard, paid their taxes, contributed and then this is how they get to spend their finals years? Shunted away and forgotten. Some cultures keep their aged working/engaged/useful until they drop... better way to go out. But some folks need expert daily medical care so being with the family is unrealistic but they could be mentally engaged with some activities (not fckn basket weaving!!). Then there are those, like my old man, who are just so disagreeable they couldn't live with family.

The Minister for Aged Care should spend a week, unannounced, in one of these homes... in fact, all pollies should spend some time in one - unannounced of course so the home doesn't get to bung on a show.

The entire system needs an overhaul with an emphasis of meaningful daily activities, better meals and employing only those who really are suited to aged care.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 30, 2020, 10:18:28 am
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/rita-panahi/rita-panahi-why-every-member-of-victorias-crisis-cabinet-must-go/news-story/4c679a19889b404146f88eaed14c389f

Quote
One down, seven to go. The resignation of hapless health minister Jenny Mikakos is a start but by no means the end of a reckoning that should see every single member of the Crisis Cabinet, including the Premier, stepping down in disgrace.

Joining them should be the well remunerated department heads who oversaw gross incompetence on a scale unparalleled in the history of this state.

Counsel assisting the hotel quarantine inquiry, Ben Ihle, summed up the calamity when he said: “The failure by the hotel quarantine program to contain this virus is (to date) responsible for the deaths of 768 people and the infection of some 18,418 others ... One only needs to pause and to reflect on those figures to appreciate the full scope of devastation and despair.”

Dan Andrews says the buck stops with him. Why should Mikakos take full responsibility for the quarantine program when it was Jobs Minister Martin Pakula’s department that selected the security companies, giving the bulk of the work to a questionable outfit that was not on the government’s approved list of contractors?

Pakula’s department gave Unified Security a $44 million payday primarily because the identity politics-obsessed far Left Andrews government was more concerned with one of the company owner’s Indigenous heritage than the ability of the firm to carry out their work safely.

The Premier and his team of incompetent senior ministers and bureaucrats may soon have more to worry about than the findings of the Coate inquiry. The prospect of facing prosecution for industrial manslaughter charges grows stronger by the day.

Indeed, it was the fear of facing criminal charges that saw so many struck with selective memory loss, according to commentator Robert Gottliebsen.

“The Victorian politicians and public servants caught in the hotel quarantine saga do not have amnesia but rather have a genuine fear that any admission of liability will cause them to be prosecuted under Victorian law,” he wrote.

“Some of those involved in the quarantine fiasco were actually part of the plotting that designed one of the most vicious industrial manslaughter acts in the Western world.”

Members of the Victorian government and bureaucracy could be prosecuted under occupational health and safety laws that carry prison terms of up to 25 years. Never has the expression “hoist with his own petard” been more apt.

Labor’s industrial manslaughter laws came into effect on July 1 this year after passing the upper house in late November. According to WorkSafe Victoria: “... for the purposes of workplace manslaughter, conduct will be considered ‘negligent’ if it involves: a great falling short of the standard of care that a reasonable person would have taken in the circumstances, and a high risk of death, serious injury or serious illness.”

Just as terrifying for the bureaucrats and responsible ministers, under the act negligent conduct also includes “a failure to act” such as failing to adequately manage, control or supervise employees, or failing to “take reasonable action to fix a dangerous situation, where failing to do so causes a high risk of death, serious injury or serious illness.”

Under Victorian law, any citizen can request WorkSafe, and then the Director of Public Prosecutions, to prosecute individuals for breaching the state’s OHS laws.

On Tuesday WorkSafe Victoria was sent a letter by Ken Phillips, executive director of Self Employed Victoria, requesting a number of individuals including the Premier, ministers Pakula and Lisa Neville, Mikakos, and 16 top public servants, a number of departments and Victorian Trades Hall Council, be prosecuted under the Occupational Health and Safety Act 2004.

The public servants named in the letter include Chief Health Officer Brett Sutton and deputy Annaliese van Diemen, Department of Premier and Cabinet secretary Chris Eccles, State Controllers Jason Helps and Andrea Spiteri, Health and Human Services secretary Kym Peake, Jobs, Precincts and Regions secretary Simon Phemister, Emergency Management Commissioner Andrew Crisp, former police chief commissioner Graham Ashton and incumbent Shane Patton, plus several other bureaucrats alleged to have failed in their duty to provide a safe worksite.

Phillips believes that the evidence heard at the Coate inquiry shows that the government caused the second outbreak and thus is culpable under the Act.

The next step will see WorkSafe chief Colin Radford, a former staffer of Steve Bracks, John Brumby and Tim Holding, either undertaking prosecutions or writing to Phillips to explain why the matter is not proceeding. If the latter occurs, Phillips can request the DPP to prosecute. Expect to see this process drag on well into 2021.

IN SHORT: Medical experts say wearing a mask when outdoors and socially distanced from others has no health benefits but Dan Andrews knows better. The Premier admits his mask edict goes beyond health advice, yet he expects Victorians to be masked even when alone at the beach. Another daft captain’s call.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 30, 2020, 10:31:23 am
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/rita-panahi/rita-panahi-why-every-member-of-victorias-crisis-cabinet-must-go/news-story/4c679a19889b404146f88eaed14c389f


Sorry, MBB, but as soon as I saw the author of this article I knew it would be highly manipulative and agenda driven with convenient cherry picking to support her agenda. Bolt's understudy. Did she really write: Medical experts say wearing a mask when outdoors and socially distanced from others has no health benefits ????? Holy crap, what a bizarre and simply stupid thing to say, wearing masks isn't in and of itself a 'health benefit', it's a preventative measure FFS  ::)  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on September 30, 2020, 10:53:33 am
Sorry, MBB, but as soon as I saw the author of this article I knew it would be highly manipulative and agenda driven with convenient cherry picking to support her agenda. Bolt's understudy. Did she really write: Medical experts say wearing a mask when outdoors and socially distanced from others has no health benefits ????? Holy crap, what a bizarre and simply stupid thing to say, wearing masks isn't in and of itself a 'health benefit', it's a preventative measure FFS  ::)  ::)

Agree, that whole enterprise is immeasurably ghastly. The modern version of Orwell's Two Minutes Hate.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 30, 2020, 11:08:05 am
Why do you need to wear mask if you are alone outdoors?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 30, 2020, 11:11:27 am
Sorry, MBB, but as soon as I saw the author of this article I knew it would be highly manipulative and agenda driven with convenient cherry picking to support her agenda. Bolt's understudy. Did she really write: Medical experts say wearing a mask when outdoors and socially distanced from others has no health benefits ????? Holy crap, what a bizarre and simply stupid thing to say, wearing masks isn't in and of itself a 'health benefit', it's a preventative measure FFS  ::)  ::)

Didn't you just cherry pick one line out of her article to discredit her?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 30, 2020, 11:14:19 am
Without saying that masks are ineffective I have read in more than one place that they are not exactly at the top of the list of effective counter measures. One description was "like trying to catch mossies in chicken wire" , but I don't claim to actually know. I personally wear one as there is nothing to lose by doing so afaic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on September 30, 2020, 11:28:59 am
Without saying that masks are ineffective I have read in more than one place that they are not exactly at the top of the list of effective counter measures. One description was "like trying to catch mossies in chicken wire" , but I don't claim to actually know. I personally wear one as there is nothing to lose by doing so afaic.

I think the general medical consensus is that they will have some effectiveness for what is essentially a respiratory illness spread by airborne particles. How much effectiveness is up for debate. But as you say, you lose nothing by wearing them. And if you move around in certain places, like supermarkets, maintaining a 1.5m distance the whole time is impossible.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 30, 2020, 12:08:25 pm
Didn't you just cherry pick one line out of her article to discredit her?

That was no cherry... that was an elephant alone in a paddock! A line like that unravels a perspective in an instant.

And as for discrediting her... sheesh, she only has to open her mouth to prove her hard right agenda, same applies to the hard left journos as well - they refuse objectivity, rationality, fairness and broadness of vision. We've mentioned it before but she and her ilk are not journos, they're shallow click-bait merchants, that's all. Look at her pinup boy, A Bolt... defending Pell with every ounce of his click-bait energy. But I digress.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 30, 2020, 12:10:49 pm
I think the general medical consensus is that they will have some effectiveness for what is essentially a respiratory illness spread by airborne particles. How much effectiveness is up for debate. But as you say, you lose nothing by wearing them. And if you move around in certain places, like supermarkets, maintaining a 1.5m distance the whole time is impossible.

I think that is a good summary. And your example is perfect. Also applies to public transport.

I don't think face masks are meant to be or are seen as a panacea. Simply another defense against harmful airborne particles.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 30, 2020, 12:13:26 pm
Why do you need to wear mask if you are alone outdoors?

What does it matter doing 180kms on the open road when no other cars are about?

We need blanket laws because too many of us are just plain stupid and will take more and more liberties.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 30, 2020, 12:49:18 pm
Didn't you just cherry pick one line out of her article to discredit her?
@madbluboy She wrote it for that reason, it's cherry picking facts and presenting them out of context that feeds the nutter conspiracy theories, So I have no problem with @Baggers highlighting it!

There was quite a nice Podcast just recently, presented by a science reporter and discussing the despair that the flood of bogus "COVID Facts" on FaceCrook / Instafraud / Twatter  is having on everyday people and friends. I think it was called Click-Sick.

The lies and half-truths that are relational (ie., correlated) are pasted so thick and fast people ignore the truth or just can't find it buried in the manure.

A reporter interviewed a former East German scientist, they were very concerned because to them the whole FaceCrook / Instafraud / Twatter COVID feed seemed very reminiscent of life in East Germany and the bombardment of official party lines and neighbourhood paranoia! Something they thought they had escaped by migrating away, but now they live with locals, some acting like the Stasi Party faithful while others act like insurgents!

A nice part of this Podcast was a discussion about how the 5G conspiracies emerged. It was launched by Russia as a disinformation tactic because the Russian economy is dead broke and can't spend enough to keep up with China and the USA on new technologies. They fear the rapid widespread adoption of 5G outside of their borders would leave their economy beached, so they spread disinformation to discredit the technology. At first on the border of Pakistan and India to leverage the fear and suspicion that exists between each side, little did they know the nutters would then attach 5G to COVID and a whole bunch of other things like 5G Microchip Trackers in your last vaccine shot! It seems the disinformation took off because the release of 5G coincided with COVID which appeared about the same time in late 2019, but by those rules of proof so did Baby Yoda and Ooshies! ;D :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on September 30, 2020, 01:26:15 pm
Leave Ooshies out of it, someone caught a good snapper on one.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 30, 2020, 01:35:46 pm
You read the Herald Sun? And quote I assume Rita Panahi?

Okay, enough said.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 30, 2020, 01:42:14 pm
You read the Herald Sun? And quote I assume Rita Panahi?

Okay, enough said.

What are you implying?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 30, 2020, 01:47:11 pm
What are you implying?
HS is a right wing leaning paper and Rita is a very poor excuse for a journo.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on September 30, 2020, 02:04:36 pm
She's not a journalist - she's an opinionist.  Doesn't have to abide by any rules of journalism, just writes whatever comes into her head - no accountability.

She's done well for herself by just sprouting her opinions.  I must admit that I agree with about 2% of them (which may be generous).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 30, 2020, 02:13:16 pm
Without saying that masks are ineffective I have read in more than one place that they are not exactly at the top of the list of effective counter measures. One description was "like trying to catch mossies in chicken wire" , but I don't claim to actually know. I personally wear one as there is nothing to lose by doing so afaic.
SARS-CoV-2 strains range from 50nm (Nanometres, Billionth of a Metre) to 200nm across, 1/5th to 1/20th the size of a micron. So in effect anywhere from 50 to 1000 of them fit across the width of a human hair. So to a virus the holes in the P2 mask material are like a person walking through the front entrance at Bunnings, but it's more complex than that.................

We emit droplets which are basically sputum, each droplet is many tens of microns(~20um) if not hundreds of microns(~200um) across, think of a droplet about the width of a human hair. We emit dozens and dozens of droplets with every word we speak, each one can contain hundreds, thousands or even millions of virus. (There are 4.2 million cubic microns in a single 200um diameter droplet, each cubic micron can potentially hold a virus.)

Droplets are the most common form of virus transmission.

We also emit aerosols, these have a bit of a flexible definition but they are typically sub-micron (Smaller than one millionth of a Metre) in size, dozens or hundreds of aerosols fit across the width of a human hair. We emit thousands and thousands of aerosols with every word we speak or every breath we exhale.

It's not clear whether aerosols contribute much to virus transmission, undoubtedly they do to some degree.

To catch a virus you have to get the right does of virus in the right location. A droplet landing in your mouth probably doesn't have any effect, but an aerosol landing in your tear duct or lung probably can set off an infection.

The masks will help stop droplets containing virus, but they might not stop virus if it is in aerosol form.

But wait there is more,

Whether a mask catches virus depends on a number of things provided the mask is correctly constructed;
 - If the mask is clean and dry, because virus are sticky they stick to clean dry surfaces if they come into contact.
   (So wear clean dry masks everyday.)
 - If the mask has some static charge, virus will be trapped, this depends on the material used and the construction.
 - If the mask has certain chemical properties the virus will be trapped, which depends on the material used.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 30, 2020, 03:01:51 pm
@ LP

And of course we have to consider the fact that "masks ain't masks". There must be huge variations in the type and construction of contraptions that are being being worn under the generic term "masks" so really is all this mask talk all that scientific anyway in terms of actual effectiveness?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 30, 2020, 04:42:10 pm
@madbluboy She wrote it for that reason, it's cherry picking facts and presenting them out of context that feeds the nutter conspiracy theories, So I have no problem with @Baggers highlighting it!

There was quite a nice Podcast just recently, presented by a science reporter and discussing the despair that the flood of bogus "COVID Facts" on FaceCrook / Instafraud / Twatter  is having on everyday people and friends. I think it was called Click-Sick.

The lies and half-truths that are relational (ie., correlated) are pasted so thick and fast people ignore the truth or just can't find it buried in the manure.

A reporter interviewed a former East German scientist, they were very concerned because to them the whole FaceCrook / Instafraud / Twatter COVID feed seemed very reminiscent of life in East Germany and the bombardment of official party lines and neighbourhood paranoia! Something they thought they had escaped by migrating away, but now they live with locals, some acting like the Stasi Party faithful while others act like insurgents!

A nice part of this Podcast was a discussion about how the 5G conspiracies emerged. It was launched by Russia as a disinformation tactic because the Russian economy is dead broke and can't spend enough to keep up with China and the USA on new technologies. They fear the rapid widespread adoption of 5G outside of their borders would leave their economy beached, so they spread disinformation to discredit the technology. At first on the border of Pakistan and India to leverage the fear and suspicion that exists between each side, little did they know the nutters would then attach 5G to COVID and a whole bunch of other things like 5G Microchip Trackers in your last vaccine shot! It seems the disinformation took off because the release of 5G coincided with COVID which appeared about the same time in late 2019, but by those rules of proof so did Baby Yoda and Ooshies! ;D :o

Have you seen, 'The Social Dilemma?' If not, I suspect you'd like it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 30, 2020, 05:26:56 pm
The masks work for one simple reason.

Making people wear them in public does more to stop people going out, than any other measure.  Its uncomfortable, people dont like wearing them, and lets assume for a moment that they work with 50% capability of stopping the virus (its probably greater than that, but its irrelevant to the point I am going to write) you are better off wearing one than not.

Simple stuff.

The day masks became mandatory was the day my workplace (hospital) emptied of non clinical facing staff.  A lot of the essentials all of a sudden became non essential and actually took themselves home to work.  Not surprising, I hate wearing one for most of the day and end up isolating myself in an area where I can get away with working on site like I need to, only putting one on when I venture out into the business to work.  Why didnt they go earlier?  Being hospital staff, and delivering any service be it clinical or not, helps the machine of a hospital work.  The staff dont order their own stuff, admin staff do.  The staff dont audit things, admin staff do.  The staff dont staff themselves, admin staff do.  Systems administrators, people delivering key initiatives to transform the patient care experience all of a sudden up and started working from home.

THAT is plenty of good reason to make them mandatory whether they function well or not.  This isnt childsplay, its an infectious disease.  The front line workers treating covid patients wear an n95, gown, gloves, face shield, and goggles and irrespective of how effective they are, they arent going to go in not wearing one, hoping like hell they aint going to catch covid.

Rita makes some valid points.   Heads probably should roll.  Jenny was a sacrifical lamb, and irrespective of how you paint it, there should have been some more concrete analysis of what was going on, who was doing it, and how it was going to be implemented.  Instead, it was silo'd operations with minimal consultation, and policy on the run.  The Andrews government has made some errors here.  Glossing over them is not a good look, but we need to ensure that its not change for changes sake, and make sure we understand why we are making said changes.

Jacinda Ardern was front and centre of New Zealands strategy for good or bad.  It was not, minister a vs minister b, or premier this or that.  SHE was on the front foot.  THAT is what leadership looks like.  We have had absentee leadership for such a long time, that we have forgotten what it looks like.  John Howard was the last competent prime minister we have had, and the rest have all be a revolving door of undermining nitwits who want the top job long enough to qualify for a juicy pension.  We the people (read idiots) keep voting in these muppets and they have found the best way to get them all on the gravy train is leadership spill.  We havent had a full termer for a very long time, and its about time we started asking for much better candidates because all of them suit the description of NERO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 30, 2020, 05:35:13 pm
Have you seen, 'The Social Dilemma?' If not, I suspect you'd like it.

It's on Netflix, I might give it a whirl Baggers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 30, 2020, 05:35:28 pm
People wearing masks are a constant reminder to social distance and follow new protocols.

Without them its easy to forget about COVID....even if it just for a second and shake someones had, give them a kiss on the cheek etc.

I remember when the whole social distance thing came out and they had a big political seminar on the matter and at the end of it, the bloke giving it went to shake someones hand. *Doh*

See someone in a mask, and remember to stay away from them
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 30, 2020, 05:41:55 pm
People wearing masks are a constant reminder to social distance and follow new protocols.

Without them its easy to forget about COVID....even if it just for a second and shake someones had, give them a kiss on the cheek etc.

I remember when the whole social distance thing came out and they had a big political seminar on the matter and at the end of it, the bloke giving it went to shake someones hand. *Doh*

See someone in a mask, and remember to stay away from them

Fair enough,  so why couldn't they have some discrete breathing holes to make them more acceptable when mainly used for that purpose. Obviously the "real" masks would still be needed in medical situations etc.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 30, 2020, 05:57:54 pm
Fair enough,  so why couldn't they have some discrete breathing holes to make them more acceptable when mainly used for that purpose. Obviously the "real" masks would still be needed in medical situations etc.
Better masks are more likely to help....but how much help are they who knows.

The better masks might be twice as effective.
But if they are 1% and 2% effective, it doesn't matter a whole lot. (example only)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 30, 2020, 06:46:30 pm
It's on Netflix, I might give it a whirl Baggers.

I think you'll find it pretty good, Fluffy One. Helped me to really grasp this social media/Facebook/Instawhatever stuff and it's ramifications. The doco also looks, briefly, at the good that it can do/has done. The interviewees are sensational, no agenda, just the facts and really, really qualified to speak on the subject. Love to hear what you think. Cheers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 01, 2020, 11:28:42 am
Dear oh dear.  Apparently we are only just removing security guards from one of the quarantine hotels now on the back of infection control risks.

Who on earth is managing this crap show?  Why have we gotten to the end of a second wave before we are even taking action on this problem?  How is it, that the vic state governments quarantine procedures have been under scrutiny since July, yet here we are in October repeating the definition of madness?

How is it that Scott Morrison has not mandated something be put in place about it?

This is beyond the joke now.  Its like watching a live studio version of Utopia being played out in front of us.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 01, 2020, 11:31:56 am
Dear oh dear.  Apparently we are only just removing security guards from one of the quarantine hotels now on the back of infection control risks.

Who on earth is managing this crap show?  Why have we gotten to the end of a second wave before we are even taking action on this problem?  How is it, that the vic state governments quarantine procedures have been under scrutiny since July, yet here we are in October repeating the definition of madness?

How is it that Scott Morrison has not mandated something be put in place about it?

This is beyond the joke now.  Its like watching a live studio version of Utopia being played out in front of us.
ScoMo is playing politics and leaving Labor Dan to dig a big hole and fall in it...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 01, 2020, 11:41:46 am
ScoMo is playing politics and leaving Labor Dan to dig a big hole and fall in it...

Dan wont get out of this pandemic alive.  Was never going to happen.  Id rather we not sacrifice one lamb and have a good hard look at the system and its short comings, and its time to turn the blowtorch on a federal government.

If they can get away with hiding behind state politics, we either need to get rid of state politics, or get rid of the national politics.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 01, 2020, 11:44:22 am
Dear oh dear.  Apparently we are only just removing security guards from one of the quarantine hotels now on the back of infection control risks.
I doubt the problems persisted.

The naughty child doesn't keep stealing the lollies after they are are caught and put under observation, the best time to use those services was probably the minute after they were publicly exposed!

( Fwiw, it reminds me of getting corporate security travel advice to areas like Columbo and Jakarta, they always use to tell you the best time to travel to those locations was straight after a bombing. Not because travel was easy or convenient, but because official observation and alert levels were raised. )

Who was running it, maybe there is more to the former Health Minister's demise than we realise?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 01, 2020, 02:08:17 pm
Dear oh dear.  Apparently we are only just removing security guards from one of the quarantine hotels now on the back of infection control risks.

Who on earth is managing this crap show?  Why have we gotten to the end of a second wave before we are even taking action on this problem?  How is it, that the vic state governments quarantine procedures have been under scrutiny since July, yet here we are in October repeating the definition of madness?

How is it that Scott Morrison has not mandated something be put in place about it?

This is beyond the joke now.  Its like watching a live studio version of Utopia being played out in front of us.

Dictator Dan is more focused on changing the laws to give his government more power than protecting us all from the virus.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on October 01, 2020, 02:56:43 pm
Dictator Dan is more focused on changing the laws to give his government more power than protecting us all from the virus.

Protecting his government from us too.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on October 01, 2020, 05:00:22 pm
Dictator Dan is more focused on changing the laws to give his government more power than protecting us all from the virus.
Do you know what a dictator is? You lose any credibility as soon as you write that.

This is how the HS refers to Andrews. It’s so juvenile.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 01, 2020, 05:19:59 pm
Do you know what a dictator is? You lose any credibility as soon as you write that.

This is how the HS refers to Andrews. It’s so juvenile.

When crape like that continues its our country doing our best mini me version of USA.

If 4 years from now we vote in someone like Kochie for PM, we've upgraded our mini me into full blown clone.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 01, 2020, 06:34:18 pm
Dear oh dear.  Apparently we are only just removing security guards from one of the quarantine hotels now on the back of infection control risks.

Who on earth is managing this crap show?  Why have we gotten to the end of a second wave before we are even taking action on this problem?  How is it, that the vic state governments quarantine procedures have been under scrutiny since July, yet here we are in October repeating the definition of madness?

How is it that Scott Morrison has not mandated something be put in place about it?

This is beyond the joke now.  Its like watching a live studio version of Utopia being played out in front of us.

I nearly fell through my dot when I read that today. Incomprehensible. Astonishing.  ::)  :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on October 01, 2020, 07:16:20 pm
Do you know what a dictator is? You lose any credibility as soon as you write that.

This is how the HS refers to Andrews. It’s so juvenile.

Well no, not at all.

It's apparent to all close to the Premier, that he is entirely autocratic and a micro manager extraordinaire.

And more than happy to circumvent the parliamentary checks and balances.

By any metric, he's acting like a dictator.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on October 01, 2020, 08:20:45 pm
Well no, not at all.

It's apparent to all close to the Premier, that he is entirely autocratic and a micro manager extraordinaire.

And more than happy to circumvent the parliamentary checks and balances.

By any metric, he's acting like a dictator.

So you say Dan is like these people?

https://www.biography.com/dictator

I’d be interested to hear peoples view that lived under an actual dictator and now live in Melbourne on 1 October 2020 to ask them if they see a difference. I’m certain they would see quite a difference.

Again, as soon as you reference dictator, your opinion meets squat.  The ‘Dictator Dan’ call originated in the Herald Sun newspaper, A Murdoch publication, home to such journalistic wonders as Andrew Bolt and Rita Panahi. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 01, 2020, 08:41:27 pm
We all live under a dictator here in Victoria. He arrests people for Facebook posts.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 01, 2020, 08:47:17 pm
We all live under a dictator here in Victoria. He arrests people for Facebook posts.
The press / media have always had to answer for what they write or speak, in other words be responsible for whatever they publish.

Why shouldn't everybody?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 01, 2020, 09:29:17 pm
The press / media have always had to answer for what they write or speak, in other words be responsible for whatever they publish.

Why shouldn't everybody?

Well why did they arrest that pregnant chick but not Sam Newman?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on October 01, 2020, 09:30:14 pm
We all live under a dictator here in Victoria. He arrests people for Facebook posts.
He personally goes and arrests people? I’ve read a number of FB posts that threaten him, suggest he wear bulletproof vests, call him a dictator, go to his dead fathers home to protest, suggest people go to his house and protest.  I sincerely hope all those nut jobs have Been arrested.

Since you read the HS you’d have seen Dickwad Sam Newman inciting people to protest and he got a visit from the police. Didn’t look like he got arrested? Wish he also would.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on October 01, 2020, 09:30:37 pm
Well why did they arrest that pregnant chick but not Sam Newman?
Yes why did she? Maybe there’s more to her story than you’re aware of?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 01, 2020, 09:43:15 pm
Hopefully we don't get a third wave as a result of this Novatel fiasco.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on October 02, 2020, 09:04:50 am
So you say Dan is like these people?

https://www.biography.com/dictator

I’d be interested to hear peoples view that lived under an actual dictator and now live in Melbourne on 1 October 2020 to ask them if they see a difference. I’m certain they would see quite a difference.

Again, as soon as you reference dictator, your opinion meets squat.  The ‘Dictator Dan’ call originated in the Herald Sun newspaper, A Murdoch publication, home to such journalistic wonders as Andrew Bolt and Rita Panahi. 


you're missing the point.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on October 02, 2020, 09:15:32 am
It will be interesting to see the response...

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/oct/01/morrison-governments-covid-19-aged-care-preparation-insufficient-royal-commission-finds?CMP=soc_567&fbclid=IwAR3Stc-X33necFf9oyOQYdFvJfH77AbOhWsFOQWW3RDVzY7fSjPv-cadcS4

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 02, 2020, 09:22:23 am
Hopefully we don't get a third wave as a result of this Novatel fiasco.

Not likely.   These were health care workers in furlough and not able to quarantine at home rather than return travellers.

I'd like to think they'd do better and actually isolate.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 02, 2020, 11:29:17 am
Cleaner at the old man's aged care home, BaptCare, tested positive for C-19. Must commend BaptCare on their regular updates to me personally re the situation there and the old man's condition. He's tested negative on the first round of tests, 2nd round today. I told them that the C-19 virus would drop dead if it made contact with my father due to his body being soaked in whiskey - got a laugh. Fingers crossed for the next round of tests... with bad emphysema the old man's chances are pretty slim if he got the bug.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on October 02, 2020, 11:54:15 am
Cleaner at the old man's aged care home, BaptCare, tested positive for C-19. Must commend BaptCare on their regular updates to me personally re the situation there and the old man's condition. He's tested negative on the first round of tests, 2nd round today. I told them that the C-19 virus would drop dead if it made contact with my father due to his body being soaked in whiskey - got a laugh. Fingers crossed for the next round of tests... with bad emphysema the old man's chances are pretty slim if he got the bug.
Hoping for a negative result for your father, the whiskey part gave me a chuckle though.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 02, 2020, 12:11:41 pm
It will be interesting to see the response...

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/oct/01/morrison-governments-covid-19-aged-care-preparation-insufficient-royal-commission-finds?CMP=soc_567&fbclid=IwAR3Stc-X33necFf9oyOQYdFvJfH77AbOhWsFOQWW3RDVzY7fSjPv-cadcS4
Yes, social media can blame the States and Premiers as much as they like, but authorities and courts know the Feds are ultimately responsible for COVID type situations and have been for years. It's doesn't matter what ScoMo or other Fed Ministers claim on the TV, the officials, lawyers, judges and bureaucrats know the law, when the bills were passed and what they mean.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 02, 2020, 01:55:24 pm
Yes, social media can blame the States and Premiers as much as they like, but authorities and courts know the Feds are ultimately responsible for COVID type situations and have been for years. It's doesn't matter what ScoMo or other Fed Ministers claim on the TV, the officials, lawyers, judges and bureaucrats know the law, when the bills were passed and what they mean.

Yep, damning stuff. But, hey, most of us who've had anything to do with aged care, in any capacity, know it is 'minimal' just about everything and a cash cow for the owners.

Now let's sit back and watch the ducking and weaving.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 02, 2020, 09:14:48 pm
Yes, social media can blame the States and Premiers as much as they like, but authorities and courts know the Feds are ultimately responsible for COVID type situations and have been for years. It's doesn't matter what ScoMo or other Fed Ministers claim on the TV, the officials, lawyers, judges and bureaucrats know the law, when the bills were passed and what they mean.
Sooooo, when people blame Dan for Vics 2nd wave, people arc up and say  "Dan didnt spread the virus" but youre saying "Feds and Scomo spread the virus"? Interesting.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on October 02, 2020, 10:55:18 pm
Sooooo, when people blame Dan for Vics 2nd wave, people arc up and say  "Dan didnt spread the virus" but youre saying "Feds and Scomo spread the virus"? Interesting.
Really? No. If you’re asking for absolute responsibility on the one hand, don’t NOT ask for it in the next. I mean really!?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 02, 2020, 11:41:42 pm
I think some on here are so stuck on looking for blame over responsibility, it's become confusion of the two.

COVID isn't spread by any authority, unless you think like Trump and blame the Chinese, of course the Chinese blame the USA for bringing COVID to Wuhan during the war games in late 2019.

Who is to the blame for the outbreak doesn't alter who is responsible for Federal Emergency health in Aged Care. Fundamentally, COVID was a Federal responsibility from day one, and more so once the UN declared it a pandemic.

The state of Aged Care was crap long before COVID, it's just that COVID found the appalling conditions to it's liking! ScoMo and the other Feds can't escape that responsibility, the minute the Federal Health crisis that is called COVID setup home in Aged Care facilities, it was beholding to the Federal Gov to act on it's Federal responsibilities, technically it didn't have the option to say sorry Out of Bounds yet that is the picture it is now trying to paint. That is patently wrong, but that doesn't mean the State is off the hook either and of course the State shares responsibility for what has happened.

Voters and citizens should be calling out the horrendous obfuscation, not picking a side for political reasons!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 03, 2020, 07:38:37 am
I think some on here are so stuck on blame look for blame over responsibility, it's become confusion of the two.

COVID isn't spread by any authority, unless you think like Trump and blame the Chinese, of course the Chinese blame the USA for bringing COVID to Wuhan during the war games in late 2019.

Who is to the blame for the outbreak doesn't alter who is responsible for Federal Emergency health in Aged Care. Fundamentally, COVID was a Federal responsibility from day one, and more so once the UN declared it a pandemic.

The state of Aged Care was crap long before COVID, it's just that COVID found the appalling conditions to it's liking! ScoMo and the other Feds can't escape that responsibility, the minute the Federal Health crisis called COVID setup home in Aged Care facilities it was beholding to the Federal Gov to act on it's Federal responsibilities, technically it didn't have the option to say sorry Out of Bounds yet that is the picture it is now trying to paint. That is patently wrong, but that doesn't mean the State is off the hook either and of course the State shares responsibility for what has happened.

Voters and citizens should be calling out the horrendous obfuscation, not picking a side for political reasons!
100%, go back and check all my posts, I have maintained all along this aint about which team you follow. All I am asking for is accountability and consequences for those who f-ed up.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 03, 2020, 08:08:47 am
100%, go back and check all my posts, I have maintained all along this aint about which team you follow. All I am asking for is accountability and consequences for those who f-ed up.



For some people here criticizing Daniel Andrews is like bagging Marc Murphy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on October 03, 2020, 08:11:54 am
Outbreaks are hard to contain when an individual went to work when they knew they had to isolate, even though isolation payments are available.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on October 03, 2020, 08:23:00 am
Some casual workers would fear losing their contract if they didn't turn up so it's not just a question of wages loss. I have some knowledge of companies that use casuals and they can be pretty ruthless about this stuff.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 03, 2020, 09:07:46 am
100%, go back and check all my posts, I have maintained all along this aint about which team you follow. All I am asking for is accountability and consequences for those who f-ed up.

Yep, and apart from a few of us I think the consensus is that this stuff up was something of a team effort!

C-19 exposed so many cracks, mm, nuh, canyons in our systems and our unpreparedness for a pandemic... despite warnings from medical folks for, literally, decades.

For mine, in a nutshell, this 'self-regulation' concept needs an overhaul and with, ultimately, accountability to govt.

Live animal/wild animal markets + poor regulation (in any country) + poor health management in general in poorer countries/regions + poor intergovernmental communication/lines of accountability (fed and state) + poorly trained private security companies + slow reaction time to 2nd outbreak + pathetic, even embarrassing aged care standards / accountability = disaster waiting to happen.

In the first lockdowns I thought all states and the feds were on the same page and we, along with NZ, led the world... bloody ripper response.

But, holy cr@p, the 2nd wave in Melbourne revealed the squabbles, politicking, blatant incompetence and buck-passing.

The feds have got to overhaul aged care and get fair dinkum about it. These folks deserve quality of life and all that entails, not kept alive on the basics until they kark it.

Dan reckons the buck stops with him, and he has acknowledged and apologized for the monumental c0ckups in Melbourne. One minister fell on her sword... but it cannot ALL be her fault, nah, not buying it. There are some senior public servants who are also accountable but they're hiding behind the scapegoat's resignation (Health Minister).

There needs to be a Royal Commission into the Vic pandemic response failures, with more heads to roll - no more scapegoats to relieve the pressure/hide behind, and some weak as p1ss people are hiding behind her resignation... as you say, GTC, accountability across the board.

As for Dan, well, there are some leaders who would take responsibility -- which he says he does -- but then they would do the honourable thing and resign, as well. BUT... look at the drongos (on both sides) who would step into the State Premiership. Dan might be the best of a pretty p1ss poor bunch... hopefully there's a potential leader here in Victorian politics that we don't know about yet. If so, I hope he/she comes forward... soon!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 03, 2020, 09:30:01 am
As for Dan, well, there are some leaders who would take responsibility -- which he says he does -- but then they would do the honourable thing and resign, as well. BUT... look at the drongos (on both sides) who would step into the State Premiership. Dan might be the best of a pretty p1ss poor bunch... hopefully there's a potential leader here in Victorian politics that we don't know about yet. If so, I hope he/she comes forward... soon!
Just dig a big hole....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 03, 2020, 03:19:13 pm
100%, go back and check all my posts, I have maintained all along this aint about which team you follow. All I am asking for is accountability and consequences for those who f-ed up.
Why do you think I was targeting your posts?

What are the consequences for the Feds, I'm assuming there will be some in addition to the calls for State heads?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 03, 2020, 03:24:15 pm


For some people here criticizing Daniel Andrews is like bagging Marc Murphy.
Perhaps, but then blaming sMurphy for all that is wrong at Carlton is just another type of misplaced scapegoating.

Just like blaming Andrews for all that is wrong with Aged Care and the National Covid response, some of us didn't realise when NSW numbers dropped after the shipped the boat loads out that COVID was all finished, and that we could ignore the increased risk of the thousands of returning international travellers funnelled through Melbourne Airport!

No worries, I best develop a myopic political focus on one solitary aspect of the COVID situation and allow all others contributors to the problem escape genuine surveillance.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 09, 2020, 04:24:28 pm
Mikakos has basically accused Dictator Dan of lying at the enquiry.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 16, 2020, 01:07:20 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2tOye9DKdQ
Yet some will have you believe targeting zero for COVID is apparently completely unreasonable!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 21, 2020, 08:09:05 am
Sobering stuff.

The US CDC reports approximately an extra 285,000 people died this year in the USA due to COVID.

And for the naysayers continually claiming it's the frail and elderly, the main age demographic affected was apparently 25-44 year olds, with a 26.5% increase in death rates!

Deny, deny, deny!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 21, 2020, 08:12:39 am
Vic hotel quarantine: Security company hired for link to former AFL star (Andrew Walker)

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vic-hotel-quarantine-security-company-hired-for-link-to-former-afl-star/news-story/7120f1fc2e01323f40f85ef3633e523a

An email from the Sydney-based security business at the centre of Melbourne’s quarantine farce to one of its subcontractor companies over “leering” at nurses and “hitting on” hotel workers reveals the subcontractor was used because of a “significant relationship” with an AFL star.

Unified Security was responsible for the bulk of quarantine work in a three-month arrangement worth $30 million-plus and engaged subcontractor Elite Protection Services (EPS) to guard the Rydges on Swanston, which became a significant source of infections in Victoria‘s second wave of Covid.

According to evidence before the official hotel quarantine inquiry, on May 11 the Principal Policy Officer for Inclusion and Employment at Victoria’s Department of Jobs, Precincts and Regions wrote to Unified’s majority owner David Millward raising “issues” including “leering comments towards nurses” and “speaking to hotel staff in ways that are overly friendly and hitting on them”.
It is unclear why the contact came from the Inclusion unit, however Unified is classified as Indigenous-owned due to Mr Millward’s heritage and the inquiry has heard the department considered engaging it was “in keeping with the state government‘s social procurement objectives of utilising Aboriginal businesses”.

This view was formed despite Unified not being on the government’s list of preferred security providers.

Four hours after the alarm was raised with Mr Millward, Unified’s Victorian manager Nigel Coppick emailed the policy officer saying security staff at the Rydges would be replaced.

Four days later, after providing the department with a report and “continuous improvement process”, a livid Mr Coppick wrote to EPS owner Andrew McLean.

“This is the second time you have failed Unified Security Group during our COVID-19 operations,” he said in an email tendered to the inquiry. “I afforded EPS an additional opportunity off the back of a significant relationship with Andrew Walker. This is something I do not normally do, however as can be displayed, this was my error.

“The potential reputational damage to our current position with Victoria Government is to (sic) significant to risk with further engagement with EPS, thus we are terminating our relationship with EPS effective immediately,” Mr Coppick said.

The Daily Telegraph can reveal the Andrew Walker referred to by Mr Coppick is a former Carlton AFL star who played more than 200 games for the Blues over 12 years to 2016.

Unified has strong ties in Australia’s elite football codes. Mr Millward provided security for the Manly Sea Eagles and trained league bad boy John Hopoate to the Australian heavyweight boxing title. Also, one of Unified’s directors is Warren Liddiard, brother of former Parramatta Eels player David Liddiard.

In his written statement to the inquiry, Mr Millward said Unified was first contacted about providing quarantine security in an email from the department’s inclusion unit received at 11.33pm on Friday, March 27.

The following night Mr Millward drove from Sydney to Melbourne to deliver a car load of personal protective equipment to workers before buses of returning international travellers began arriving at hotel quarantine at 8.30am Sunday.

Mr Millward said in his statement that Mr Walker had once been a business partner of EPS’s Mr McLean.

Email replies from Mr McLean to Unified said he had found a single EPS was responsible for both the leering and hitting on. Mr McLean said he considered the behaviour unacceptable.

Mr McLean made no comment when contacted by The Telegraph. Mr Walker did not respond, but there is no suggestion of wrongdoing by him or any of his employees. Mr Walker owns and runs a “100 per cent Aboriginal controlled” company called A2B, which provides services including security training.

Unified told The Telegraph that Mr Millward and Mr Walker had a pre-existing “professional relationship”, collaborating to identify “opportunities to train and employ young Aboriginal people.”

Mr Walker had been a point of contact with EPS and past experience gave Unified confidence “he could rectify ... issues”.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 25, 2020, 11:06:47 am
Less than 5 cases a day, still in lockdown.

Dictator Dan moving the goal posts again.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 25, 2020, 11:12:08 am
Less than 5 cases a day, still in lockdown.

Dictator Dan moving the goal posts again.

He did say previously it will be less about the numbers and more about the circumstances.
Given there was , yet another, positive case who decided not to stay home, a potential 3rd wave is underway. Give it a couple of days to make sure it hasn't spread too far, and then we'll be good to go.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 25, 2020, 11:13:56 am
Less than 5 cases a day, still in lockdown.

Dictator Dan moving the goal posts again.
its called a "pause" ;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 25, 2020, 11:16:46 am
Less than 5 cases a day, still in lockdown.

Dictator Dan moving the goal posts again.

And still derives pleasure talking down to women who dare question him as I've just seen.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on October 25, 2020, 11:22:17 am
The article MBB posted.... 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 25, 2020, 11:22:56 am
And still derives pleasure talking down to women who dare question him as I've just seen.
Did you here "Ive told you 50 times" line? What a peanut.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 25, 2020, 11:31:39 am
Good to see right-wingers being sensitive to possible misogyny. They must have been appalled by Tony Abbott’s behaviour. But I wonder whether they see damsels in distress who need male protection, which would undercut a belief in equality.

SkyNews should send in Andrew Bolt to ask questions. Being male, Dan Andrews would react in a matey way towards him. Problem solved.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 25, 2020, 11:48:04 am
We're all left wing here.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on October 25, 2020, 11:51:43 am
We're all left wing here.

Well, to paraphrase one of my old favourite teachers, it all depends on what you mean by "left wing".
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 25, 2020, 12:01:56 pm
We're all left wing here.
Easy tiger
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on October 25, 2020, 12:09:00 pm
No it's true....We took the test. ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on October 25, 2020, 12:19:57 pm
No it's true....We took the test. ;D

 8)  At least we didn't have to have a swab on a stick shoved up our noses.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on October 25, 2020, 01:10:28 pm
I'm so over all this crap that on some issues,  like people spreading it through sheer stupidity or outright negligence, I've started to lean towards the extreme right wing.  I'm over forgiving and forgetting, being all soft and "inclusive".  It hasn't worked.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 25, 2020, 01:37:04 pm
I'm so over all this crap that on some issues,  like people spreading it through sheer stupidity or outright negligence, I've started to lean towards the extreme right wing.  I'm over forgiving and forgetting, being all soft and "inclusive".  It hasn't worked.
Tend to agree, in some other countries you wouldnt be so lucky if you disobeyed the laws and the worst you got was a swab down your gob/up the nose, you might be finding a gun barrel in place of the swab or a free ticket to a labor camp instead...
Unfortunately though these outbreaks will occur and we have to live and learn to deal with them when Melbourne does fully open up again and I expect restrictions of sorts to be in place through to winter next year which will be the danger period again given whats happening overseas..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on October 25, 2020, 01:40:46 pm
Yep,  the old chestnut "I didn't know I had to stay at home and isolate" would have met with a different response elsewhere.

What did Solzhenitskyn write EB... "not happy with the bread ration comrade?   How about 9 grams? "
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on October 25, 2020, 01:48:58 pm
Today's non announcement was the most predictable yet.

As for talking down to female journalists.  I saw two questions of the press conference before I switched to WBBL.
1)  Why has it taken so long? (not sure if that was the full question before it got shut down - certainly not sure what 'it' was referring to).  She tried again with the same result.
2) What was the point of the road map? Rubbish question and treated appropriately

My test result was -1 left, +1 authoritarian.  Didn't understand some of the questions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 25, 2020, 02:05:29 pm
Ive watched about 3 press conferences.  The questions are often answered in the original speeches which is why they get the treatment he gives.

Caveat- i haven't watched today.

Most of the time its rather basic.  We have cases, we have a disease that is going to kill a lot of people and if we stuff this up, a week of early freedom could lead to months of pain.  We have the second of November as a current target date and every time things flare up from nowhere keep in mind all the numpties who say covid is a scam and don't get tested and stuff like that.

Im not debating whether or not they have a point.  Im stating that fighting lockdown is only going to lengthen how long we stay in it for.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 25, 2020, 03:02:17 pm
We made the ridiculous target and we're still in lockdown.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 25, 2020, 03:42:40 pm
The target is irrelevant, it's an arbitrary number designed to get people to understand they need to modify their behaviour under the new normal and act a certain way to allow the medical professionals to manage the situation.

But the flogs and microchip vaccine nutters are going to ruin things for everybody, they are even giving the Karens and Coreys a bad name, and we will all be stuck in this cycle of lock down for weeks or months.

If someone doubts this to be true, they need to explain away what is now happening in some of those European locations which were held up as golden examples of liberty and now have cases doubling as warned by most none political authorities. Pretty much every graph you can find for the Northern hemisphere shows a curve climbing except perhaps the death rate which is flattening, but that doesn't mean people aren't seriously harmed by a moderate or serious case of COVID, it just means medicos are getting better at helping people live through it one form or another!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 25, 2020, 04:03:33 pm
No it's true....We took the test. ;D
Yes and I started counseling on Friday.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 25, 2020, 04:04:37 pm
Yep,  the old chestnut "I didn't know I had to stay at home and isolate" would have met with a different response elsewhere.

What did Solzhenitskyn write EB... "not happy with the bread ration comrade?   How about 9 grams? "
In the case of the EPIC school in Preston, DHHS fed the infected child's parent the wrong info.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on October 25, 2020, 04:11:52 pm
Not a surprise, DHHS giving wrong info.  When our Kinder had to close and some of us needed tests, we got all sorts of things, none of it right, which wasted buckets of time on the phone.  This includes our first contact from DHHS to get tested about 10 days after they were notified of a case and one day before our quarantine was up, because Kinder advised kids to get tested.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 25, 2020, 04:43:01 pm
This includes our first contact from DHHS to get tested about 10 days after they were notified of a case and one day before our quarantine was up, because Kinder advised kids to get tested.
Not defending anyone in particular, before the nutters launch into rhetoric.

I suppose it depends how quickly the virus develops and people actually become infectious, it's not instantaneous like the media portray. It takes days and days for virus to build up enough in an exposed and infected person to be at detectable levels, for most types of tests except PCR, and about the same length of time before they become infectious. Of course not all people exposed to virus become infected.

Also, the evidence was originally hinting that children are less likely to get infected and less likely to spread the infection, the jury is still out on whether that is the case, but it is now clear  that some children who get infected can suffer bad effects from it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 25, 2020, 07:03:11 pm
We made the ridiculous target and we're still in lockdown.
Are you trying to impersonate the female reporters?

Question has been answered repeatedly. Pay attention, or stay silent.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on October 25, 2020, 09:13:48 pm
LP - It was a dog's breakfast for the Kinder and kids determined as close contacts.  Dates and advice were all over the shop and contact from DHHS to us was well outside their guidelines.  It was administrative, not anything else.  I have deleted texts, but included (amongst other things) that our quarantine period would start from before the case was diagnosed.

No agenda here, either - just what happened.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 26, 2020, 07:56:17 am
Are you trying to impersonate the female reporters?

Question has been answered repeatedly. Pay attention, or stay silent.

Is that how women are supposed to behave?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 26, 2020, 08:00:06 am
LP - It was a dog's breakfast for the Kinder and kids determined as close contacts.  Dates and advice were all over the shop and contact from DHHS to us was well outside their guidelines.  It was administrative, not anything else.  I have deleted texts, but included (amongst other things) that our quarantine period would start from before the case was diagnosed.

No agenda here, either - just what happened.
I've no doubt that was your genuine experience.

But as an outside observer, you'd be asking me to blame a process that involves people, and in my experience any process that relies on people as a subjective source of information is inherently corrupt. People are the weak link and just report the wrong information, whether it's deliberate or not!

You only have to look at the recent approval for Remdesivir as an example, all the recently completed major studies report it has no positive real world effect in treating COVID, yet Trump's apparently corrupt takeover of the CDC has resulted in it's broad approval for COVID use.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on October 26, 2020, 11:39:17 am
Correct LP, it was human error in our car and n lots of them - bad system.  It would have been really easy to have a system that auto calculated dates based on diagnosis eg. Case diagnosed dd/mm/yy close contacts to be tested +x days (provide date), quarantine while waiting for results etc.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 26, 2020, 12:06:12 pm
Correct LP, it was human error in our car and n lots of them - bad system.  It would have been really easy to have a system that auto calculated dates based on diagnosis eg. Case diagnosed dd/mm/yy close contacts to be tested +x days (provide date), quarantine while waiting for results etc.
Dodge you make it sound easy but it rarely is in the real world. COVID for example survives on a surface, and the infected person goes through a wide scale of infectiousness that may also have spanned multiple visits to the premise, while others may have also had multiple visits to the facility with varying cardinalities of exposure.

It's a horrible problem to solve, and the medicos have to walk a tightrope made from the Hippocratic oath which states "Do no harm", including not worry people when they do not have to be worried, and not enabling the prosecution of people who do not warrant prosecution. They don't get to operate on the "Smeller is the Fella" rule of investigation and detection like the media does regularly!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: tonyo on October 26, 2020, 03:16:25 pm
It's a horrible problem to solve, and the medicos have to walk a tightrope made from the Hippocratic oath which states "Do no harm", including not worry people when they do not have to be worried, and not enabling the prosecution of people who do not warrant prosecution. They don't get to operate on the "Smeller is the Fella" rule of investigation and detection like the media does regularly!
Problem is, if a medico doesn't reveal a potential outcome in any given situation, no matter how remote the likelihood, they can be sued for not communicating that miniscule risk.  And then, as suits, media and lawyer types get hold of the information and turn it into something far more sinister than it actually is.

There should be a Royal Commission into the role the Media have played during this pandemic.  Their desire for cheap headlines and stories with a minimum of background checking have contributed significantly to the misinformation and confusion.  The truth that we all want to hear is buried somewhere in a barrage of fog, because there is too much political point-scoring going on, and the Media have been only too accommodating to give oxygen to the latest whacko theory about what's going on.  And don't forget, the Media have their political agendas as well.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 26, 2020, 03:48:08 pm
There should be a Royal Commission into the role the Media have played during this pandemic.  Their desire for cheap headlines and stories with a minimum of background checking have contributed significantly to the misinformation and confusion.  The truth that we all want to hear is buried somewhere in a barrage of fog, because there is too much political point-scoring going on, and the Media have been only too accommodating to give oxygen to the latest whacko theory about what's going on.  And don't forget, the Media have their political agendas as well.

Are you serious?  A Royal Commission into the media?  This is a joke, right?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: tonyo on October 26, 2020, 04:00:45 pm
Are you serious?  A Royal Commission into the media?  This is a joke, right?

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/malcolm-turnbull-signs-kevin-rudds-petition-challenging-news-corp-media-dominance/ar-BB1amVSK

I'm not the only one who's over the Corporate Oligarchies that determine what we are supposed to think.  They print any crap that serves their purpose and are rarely if ever held accountable for the damage it can cause, because they have Governments in their pockets.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 26, 2020, 04:30:12 pm
Rudd and Turnbull? .....   ???  ::)  woteva
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 26, 2020, 05:18:40 pm
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/malcolm-turnbull-signs-kevin-rudds-petition-challenging-news-corp-media-dominance/ar-BB1amVSK

I'm not the only one who's over the Corporate Oligarchies that determine what we are supposed to think.  They print any crap that serves their purpose and are rarely if ever held accountable for the damage it can cause, because they have Governments in their pockets.


Couldn't agree more. In particular, the level to which the HUN stoop when pursuing an agenda is simply deplorable.

Breaking up these Oligarch 'empires' is imperative. Especially 'Malcontent Media', News Corp.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 26, 2020, 05:30:21 pm
Is that how women are supposed to behave?


No, its how all people should behave.

The reason why 'Dan hates women' is because it happens to be female reporters who are not paying attention and asking the questions already answered.
Just like my response to you. Was it because you were a woman.....unless their has been an operation i don't know about....no.

Just like Dan, its what was being said, not who was saying it.

Its the old Adam Goodes debate again. Was he booed because he was black? Or was he booed because he is a tool?
Danger got booed on the weekend. Lucky he wasn't black, or a female, then there would be a lot of racist and sexist people out there.  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 26, 2020, 07:01:06 pm
Is that how women are supposed to behave?


I don't think in this instance it is about 'women', but rather one woman in particular... Abbott's ex, the Mistress of Malcontent.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 26, 2020, 07:29:52 pm
If you refuse to test suspected covid positive patients then you get zero cases.....but that wouldnt happen in Victorian hospitals
would it?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 26, 2020, 07:34:10 pm
If you refuse to test suspected covid positive patients then you get zero cases.....but that wouldnt happen in Victorian hospitals
would it?

I don't know if thats gone on, i can guess by your comment, but i was saying as much earlier today.

If you thought you had it now, would you get tested for it or would you just self isolate and pretend like you never had it for the greater good?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 26, 2020, 08:04:24 pm
I don't know if thats gone on, i can guess by your comment, but i was saying as much earlier today.

If you thought you had it now, would you get tested for it or would you just self isolate and pretend like you never had it for the greater good?
So you would potentially roll the dice on your life and / or years of well-being and parenting, hoping that COVID never gets bad for you, so someone can go shoe shopping and get their hair coloured in Sth Yarra!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 26, 2020, 08:53:28 pm
I don't know if thats gone on, i can guess by your comment, but i was saying as much earlier today.

If you thought you had it now, would you get tested for it or would you just self isolate and pretend like you never had it for the greater good?

Thats exactly how we end up back here next year.

I reckon its time to start a poll.  Nearest to the pin.

When does our 3rd wave start? 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 27, 2020, 07:49:37 am
Thats exactly how we end up back here next year.

I reckon its time to start a poll.  Nearest to the pin.

When does our 3rd wave start? 
 Autumn 2021
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 27, 2020, 08:49:58 am
So you would potentially roll the dice on your life and / or years of well-being and parenting, hoping that COVID never gets bad for you, so someone can go shoe shopping and get their hair coloured in Sth Yarra!

Thats a bit extremist.

If you are young, fit and healthy, what is a positive test going to do for you?

I'm not saying i'd do it, but i guarantee a few youngings wouldn't want to know if it could mean taking away their freedom.

This is a byproduct of keeping us in lockdown so long
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 27, 2020, 09:23:28 am
Couldn't agree more. In particular, the level to which the HUN stoop when pursuing an agenda is simply deplorable.

Breaking up these Oligarch 'empires' is imperative. Especially 'Malcontent Media', News Corp.

Absolutely!

The petition website crashed after being overwhelmed with demand when I attempted to sign.  I persisted and eventually joined the multitude who have signed.

Sadly, Albo won’t support the petition  :(

And, of course, the Oligarch’s organ is questioning the validity of signatories  ;D

That brings me back to the subject, the Oligarch’s goons repeat the questions because they don’t listen.  They are programmed to follow the Oligarch’s mantra and will not deviate.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 27, 2020, 09:35:00 am
Thats a bit extremist. Maybe so, but it got the point across. Though you do feel deeply for hospitality & tourism... Mrs Baggers and I have made a point of eating out a couple of times a week to help our re-opened restaurants, and our holidays will be within Victoria supporting tourism locations in the process.

If you are young, fit and healthy, what is a positive test going to do for you? Have you seen just how this virus can effect some of our young? Long Covid in parts of the world is very real. A positive test also tells the young one to self-quarantine... wonder how that will work out?

I'm not saying i'd do it, but i guarantee a few youngings wouldn't want to know if it could mean taking away their freedom. 'Freedom' is a fascinating concept, I suggest we're more enamoured with the choice of freedom, as precious few humans on this ball in the sky are truly 'free'. But that's a psychological/philosophical/spiritual discussion for another day.

This is a byproduct of keeping us in lockdown so long. We've all had the shizens with this lockdown at various stages for various reasons. But our (Victoria's) handling of the 2nd wave will be and is a model for many countries... with the exception of guarding quarantined masses in motels, and how to protect our elderly  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on October 27, 2020, 09:47:39 am
Albo won't sign it because that's political suicide in this country.   Merde-doch is the kingmaker.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 27, 2020, 10:02:43 am
@Baggers
Don't be confused by what i wrote vs what i'd do.

I'm just pointing out what others could/would do.

I know of people have been flaunting the rules already. Further delay would not stop that from happening.

Most of these people are younger people, sure, the virus can hurt young people.....but so can driving drunk/on drugs, so can jumping out of trees, so can *insert stupid things only a younger person would do here*. You see my point?

Eventually there comes a tipping point, the hatred growing towards Dan Andrews is an indication of that. My facebook pages have been littered with rebelious remarks of late in regards to the lockdown. If Dan didn't let us out after zero cases, there would've been riots!

So this goes back to what i was saying before. Given this is how some people feel, would they put there hand up and ruin it for everyone else, or stay quiet and make everyone happy.


Remember back at school when someone did something and the whole class had to stay behind until someone owned up. Eventually the peer pressure would get someone to own up. On the odd occasion you might even get someone taking one for the team and owning up despite not doing anything wrong.

This is the same thing, but in reverse.
You are better off staying silent for the benefit of the group. Putting your hand up and doing the right thing hurts everybody else. If you are trying to do the right thing.....is that putting your hand up, or sucking it up in silence for the benefit of the group? There is no benefit in coming forward, quite the opposite.
Now when there are 100's of cases, it doesn't matter if you come forward.
But when there is only a a couple of cases state wide, what you do has a big impact on a lot of people.
Its a philosophical dilemma.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 27, 2020, 11:21:17 am
Thats a bit extremist.

If you are young, fit and healthy, what is a positive test going to do for you?
Statistically a disproportionate number of moderate to severe cases in the USA are occurring in 25 to 40 year olds, with about 1/2 of those cases experiencing significant long term effects( aka, long COVID ), it is not all about the elderly as the media like to suggest.

The actually driver of this statistic seems to be healthy young people not going to the the doctor and not being tested early enough when they first experience symptoms, I suppose they are thinking it is an old persons problem and not bad for younger patients, which is exactly as you have suggested you might do to avoid an extension to lock down! :o

Taking one for the team might be quite extreme, so be careful what you ask for!

At this stage there are no similar results reflected broadly in European locations, so it really does seem an attitude makes a difference to the outcome! But it's clear that in locations where available treatment levels are poor, India, Russia, Turkey, etc., etc., the outcome is quite bad regardless of age demographic! Of course naysayers will say death rates are higher in elderly, but long COVID is not something you would wish on anybody as a viable alternative.

Being young and willingly getting tested and treated the outcome seems good, being young and not being diagnosed or rejecting early treatment is bad. I presume nobody rejects late treatment! :o

The media have largely ignored the hypocrisy in the Trump diagnosis and treatment, it isn't like the flu, he was rapidly, radically and aggressively treated when first diagnosed. People should do the very opposite of what he stated and be quite scared and careful, because the vast bulk of general society won't get his treatment no matter how wealthy they may be!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: tonyo on October 27, 2020, 01:55:22 pm


The media have largely ignored the hypocrisy in the Trump diagnosis and treatment, it isn't like the flu, he was rapidly, radically and aggressively treated when first diagnosed. People should do the very opposite of what he stated and be quite scared and careful, because the vast bulk of general society won't get his treatment no matter how wealthy they may be!

Do we really even know if he had it?  Remarkable recovery for a 74 yo, really, only 3 days, with virtually no apparent lingering issues (and his driver didn't even wear a mask when Trump was taken for a drive-by in his hospital gown).  That, together with so many conflicting stories of how he was treated, make me wonder if he hasn't pulled a massive pre-election stunt.  His spin doctors would be only too aware that Boris Johnson's approval rating skyrocketed after he was hospitalised with COVID.  Just what a flagging Presidential candidate needed.

And now he can stand up at rallies and debates and say he knows exactly what it's like to have COVID and it's not so bad.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 27, 2020, 02:32:44 pm
And now he can stand up at rallies and debates and say he knows exactly what it's like to have COVID and it's not so bad.....
Hmmm,  "It's not so bad  ............. if it's detected and treated early!"

Boris was ill and tried to push through by self-isolating before being hospitalised, I doubt he was treated the same way as Trump, or perhaps that Trump still is for that matter! I notice Melania Trump is pretty much fully masked now, no doubt she knows what a more serious dose is like courtesy of her loving husband!

Even worse for the COVID naysayers, repeat infections are now being confirmed all over the globe meaning there is either no herd immunity or if some herd immunity exists it is very short lived.

By his inaction and wilful misinformation, Trump has probably caused more additional American COVID deaths than the Vietnam and Korean wars combined!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 27, 2020, 03:11:33 pm
Do we really even know if he had it?  Remarkable recovery for a 74 yo, really, only 3 days, with virtually no apparent lingering issues (and his driver didn't even wear a mask when Trump was taken for a drive-by in his hospital gown).  That, together with so many conflicting stories of how he was treated, make me wonder if he hasn't pulled a massive pre-election stunt.  His spin doctors would be only too aware that Boris Johnson's approval rating skyrocketed after he was hospitalised with COVID.  Just what a flagging Presidential candidate needed.

And now he can stand up at rallies and debates and say he knows exactly what it's like to have COVID and it's not so bad.....

That was my theory.

His whole point has been to deny covid was a real issue, and largely the election hinges on this, which is possibly why they are spiking in numbers so great to go with the rest of the northern hemisphere.

Also, they are holding stimulus to ransom for similar reasons.  They are trying to blame Biden's camp for not coming to an agreement regarding stimulus but meanwhile, I remember reading somewhere that Trump took control of the Fed not that long ago to help print money.

What that means, is that once the election is over, stimulus will return but by then it will be a bridge too far.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 27, 2020, 03:11:44 pm
Aircrews including flight attendants dressed in full PPE.

How safe is that going to make you feel next time you fly, if ever?

btw., The concept seems a bit misplaced and I think perhaps more about employer liability than anything else.

Some recent reports suggest the airport is far more dangerous than the aircraft cabin, although I realise this is hard to accept. But as I understand it most or many modern aircraft turnover the full volume of cabin air several times per-hour and have specific air flows designed to shower passengers with warmed and humidified externally sourced air. The fundamental concept seems to be you are safer is a small volume space that is well ventilated, than a high volume space that is poorly ventilated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 27, 2020, 03:19:11 pm
What that means, is that once the election is over, stimulus will return but by then it will be a bridge too far.
In a country, that has COVID running rampant through it's population, where you have to empty your wallet for basic health care and no real controls over the cost of medication other than interventions by the Supreme Court. How the feck does getting $500 in your pocket help?

It's like offering you a gold star while standing you in front of the firing squad!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 27, 2020, 03:26:05 pm
Also, they are holding stimulus to ransom for similar reasons.  They are trying to blame Biden's camp for not coming to an agreement regarding stimulus but meanwhile, I remember reading somewhere that Trump took control of the Fed not that long ago to help print money.
Biden has no role in this. It’s up to Congress & the White House, and this is often summarised as Pelosi, McConnell & Trump. Americans with an interest in politics would know Steve Mnuchin (Trump’s man) & Pelosi were in negotiations but McConnell warned Trump not to make a deal as fiscally conservative Republican Senators didn’t want to approve any deal.

It’s easy for Aussies to make the error of conflating Congressional Democrats with Biden. In our system, it goes without saying that the Prime Minister and the Opposition Leader control parliamentary votes. But while Biden and Pelosi are both Democrats, Biden won’t control Pelosi if he wins the election. They will have their own battles and Biden will have to negotiate with Pelosi to make sure he gets the sort of legislation he needs through Congress.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 27, 2020, 03:33:47 pm
Not confirmed, but I read reports the COVID cost to the US economy is now reported as $3.8T, which is apparently about 15% of US GDP, on top of nearly $500B in direct stimulus packages.

Shizen that's like US$4000 per person?

How the feck is this good fiscal management?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 28, 2020, 12:44:16 pm
Bit of inside gossip from the medical world...Vic Nurses being recruited for Covid Vaccination's...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on October 28, 2020, 01:18:01 pm
Bit of inside gossip from the medical world...Vic Nurses being recruited for Covid Vaccination's...

Very interesting EB. Also heard today that about 150 Vic gov staff are being redeployed and trained as hotel quarantine staff. The training includes aspects of the prison officer training course apparently.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 28, 2020, 01:19:13 pm
Bit of inside gossip from the medical world...Vic Nurses being recruited for Covid Vaccination's...
Yes, I read they are testing a potential prophylactic, not a vaccine, it is only being targeted for health professionals.

There was a smaller trial of about 300 medicos that has shown some promise in reducing the deleterious effects of a bout of COVID, and now it's being extended to about 10000 staff. But as I understand it, it doesn't stop infection, just reduces the severity and may also reduce the transmission.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 28, 2020, 01:21:26 pm
Very interesting EB. Also heard today that about 150 Vic gov staff are being redeployed and trained as hotel quarantine staff. The training includes aspects of the prison officer training course apparently.
Bit like Russia... Just to be clear, The nurses are being recruited as vaccination candidates as well as deliverers but it's just in the preparation stages and not official trials and more about numbers, volunteers etc.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 28, 2020, 01:23:25 pm
Bit like Russia... Just to be clear, The nurses are being recruited as vaccination candidates..
 In the UK they are deliberately recruiting health workers to be infected with COVID, as this can greatly accelerate the testing of an effective vaccine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on October 28, 2020, 10:06:04 pm
In the UK they are deliberately recruiting health workers to be infected with COVID, as this can greatly accelerate the testing of an effective vaccine.

Define "effective".
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 28, 2020, 10:18:10 pm
Define "effective".
One that delivers improved resistance to, immunisation against or limits transmission of Sars-CoV-2 infections in a significant percentage of recipients(> 40%) without any permanent or deleterious unwanted side-effects. An effective vaccine doesn't have to stop you getting Sars-CoV-2, it may stop you spreading the infection while reducing your own symptoms.

The reason for recruiting people to receive deliberate infections isn't to determine if the vaccine is effective or not, it is to reduce the time-frame to a conclusion of the study. There are risks though, that the study isn't properly double blind because they have to know who gets exposed to a live infection.

btw., It looks like the commonly believed concept of a single shot vaccine is dead, that is one shot and you're safe for life isn't going to happen, because there are significant numbers of re-infections appearing now in US and European hot zones. At this stage it's not clear if the second infection is better, worse or the same, it'll take many many more repeat infections before that is known.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 29, 2020, 08:49:45 am
Bit of inside gossip from the medical world...Vic Nurses being recruited for Covid Vaccination's...

I believe that it’s a nasal spray prophylactic that’s being tested EB.  Apparently it will reduce the chances of infection for health workers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 29, 2020, 09:20:45 am
I believe that it’s a nasal spray prophylactic that’s being tested EB.  Apparently it will reduce the chances of infection for health workers.
Not sure on exactly what is being delivered or tested DJ but that nurses are being sounded out for the delivery job as well as being potential candidates.It was in a information/survey format and voluntary but there is something coming Healthcare workers way but it's all in the preparation stages. I think it's all about preventing a big wave next winter like we are seeing overseas.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 29, 2020, 09:28:15 am
Id be wary of any scuttlebutt being heard here with respect to vaccinations and trials.

I am literally front line, and have heard nothing here, which means its still highly investigative.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 29, 2020, 10:38:56 am
Id be wary of any scuttlebutt being heard here with respect to vaccinations and trials.

I am literally front line, and have heard nothing here, which means its still highly investigative.
The nasal spray one isnt scuttlebut, that was on the news the other night and showed a nurse at a Melb hospital having it administered.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 29, 2020, 10:59:21 am
Id be wary of any scuttlebutt being heard here with respect to vaccinations and trials.

I am literally front line, and have heard nothing here, which means its still highly investigative.
I suppose it depends on the size of the trial and where it's being conducted, 200 or 300 could be at just one or two sites. If it's second stage, then it could be 10000 people and that you would have to know about.

The nasal spray one isnt scuttlebut, that was on the news the other night and showed a nurse at a Melb hospital having it administered.
In recent days a lot of fakery has also been on the news, in my opinion broadcast news ranks in quality no better than Facebook.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 29, 2020, 11:03:13 am
It was in a information/survey format and voluntary but there is something coming Healthcare workers way but it's all in the preparation stages. I think it's all about preventing a big wave next winter like we are seeing overseas.
Then it should be tested OS in autumn / winter conditions not here, we are moving into Spring / Summer, everything is going to look effective because if our trend follows OS we are going through a good period for the next 3 or 4 months!

There is some irony in old wives tales, "Put your jumper on little Johnny, you don't want to catch a cold!"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on October 30, 2020, 04:32:17 pm
Traffic back to sh1te today! 🤪
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 30, 2020, 04:34:19 pm
Traffic back to sh1te today! 🤪
We are all heading to Phillip Island for the Long Weekend, it's only 25km!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 30, 2020, 08:10:41 pm
Traffic back to sh1te today! 🤪
its been that way for a couple of weeks now
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 05, 2020, 02:52:12 pm
Interesting findings coming out of the UK and Melbourne research about the efficacy of BCG vaccine in providing greatly improved resistance to COVID.

If this turns out to be true it's very very good news, and we have a genuine way out of this horrible situation in the absence of a dedicated SARS-CoV-2 vaccine. Masks will probably persist, but restrictions and borders could be opened as the chance of exponential rates of infection would be greatly reduced.

I have to wonder if this "Side-effect" of the traditional TB vaccine is a reason for kids showing less infection and transmission?

Many of us who were until recently regularly travelling up into SE Asia have probably already had TB boosters.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on November 08, 2020, 10:42:07 am
For anyone listening to Dan Andrews press conference. The first question asked of him......yes from THAT female reporter was something like...
"Surely masks are only important if you are wearing them properly, i see a lot of people wearing them incorrectly."

Umm.....is she in grade 3? Duh. How can you answer that question without rolling your eyes.

Dan Andrews handled it pretty well, but fronting up day after day to those types of questions is why Dan is accused of hating females if he lets slip every now and then.
He's a more patient person than i am.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 10, 2020, 01:29:22 pm
I was quite buoyed by today's vaccine announcements, but perhaps it is a bit premature, there seems to have been little or no new peer review of the Pfizer vaccine developments since it's announcement back on the 5th of Nov.

That absence of qualified commentary is very strange to say the least, and should be a warning sign that the announcement is more about publicity and politics than good science.

Let's hope the unusually quiet peer review front is just an anomaly and there is real progress. I suspect at this stage pending reports of some real progress or a false dawn are equally likely.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: tonyo on November 10, 2020, 02:42:16 pm
There is some value for the drug companies to go the early crow, but if they do, and it ends up going pear-shaped, they may miss the vaccine bus all together as they try to re-prove their product.

There are supposedly 100+ formulations in the pipeline, and someone(s) is going to make a s***load of money out of this.

Of note, CSL have yesterday commenced full-scale production of the Oxford/AstraZeneca formulation, with the University of Queensland formula not far behind.  The idea is they will ramp up production and have product manufactured early in 2021, with the (expected) outcome that one or both of the vaccines is effective.  If a vaccine doesn't work, or isn't safe, it the product will be poured down the sink. A gamble, but one which will put us 3-6 months ahead of the usual process.

Assuming the Oxford or UofQ vaccine gets the thumbs up, we will be lucky enough to have doses ready by Feb-Mar.  Probably frontline workers first, followed by vulnerable populations.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 10, 2020, 08:41:31 pm
There is some value for the drug companies to go the early crow, but if they do, and it ends up going pear-shaped, they may miss the vaccine bus all together as they try to re-prove their product.

There are supposedly 100+ formulations in the pipeline, and someone(s) is going to make a s***load of money out of this.

Of note, CSL have yesterday commenced full-scale production of the Oxford/AstraZeneca formulation, with the University of Queensland formula not far behind.  The idea is they will ramp up production and have product manufactured early in 2021, with the (expected) outcome that one or both of the vaccines is effective.  If a vaccine doesn't work, or isn't safe, it the product will be poured down the sink. A gamble, but one which will put us 3-6 months ahead of the usual process.

Assuming the Oxford or UofQ vaccine gets the thumbs up, we will be lucky enough to have doses ready by Feb-Mar.  Probably frontline workers first, followed by vulnerable populations.


A calculated risk that given the circumstances has to be taken IMO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 12, 2020, 12:14:50 pm
Sars-CoV-2 is a seriously complex viral infection, it affects many organs with the main short term issue being the lungs. But liver, kidney, heart are all affected, and there are signs that eyes, brain and nervous system might also be targets of infection. It is not trivial to determine what is a direct effect and what is a side-effect, these things take time, years in fact.

It looks like there are many potential drugs to treat it, either as a prophylaxis or as a remedy, it appears almost none of them work broadly to claim Sars-CoV-2 won't infect or have some side-effect on some part of your body. The main successful push appears to be one of developing managements, in effect stop it doing the really bad stuff in the short term to give your own body the time to fight the infection.

So the best defence is still not get it in the first place, there are no miracle cures.

Social distancing is king, do not go where crowds are unless you have to, and when you do wearing masks should be compulsory, they do not stop you getting it and the people around you without masks should be considered your enemy stay further away. Which includes Donald Trump, because masks do greatly reduce you giving an infection to somebody else, treat people without masks as contagious, treat them like they are zombies, give and request a wide birth from them!

Things could continue like this for several years, claims we will return to normal sooner than later are likely to be very very premature!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on November 12, 2020, 01:26:44 pm
Sars-CoV-2 is a seriously complex viral infection, it affects many organs with the main short term issue being the lungs. But liver, kidney, heart are all affected, and there are signs that eyes, brain and nervous system might also be targets of infection. It is not trivial to determine what is a direct effect and what is a side-effect, these things take time, years in fact.

It looks like there are many potential drugs to treat it, either as a prophylaxis or as a remedy, it appears almost none of them work broadly to claim Sars-CoV-2 won't infect or have some side-effect on some part of your body. The main successful push appears to be one of developing managements, in effect stop it doing the really bad stuff in the short term to give your own body the time to fight the infection.

So the best defence is still not get it in the first place, there are no miracle cures.

Social distancing is king, do not go where crowds are unless you have to, and when you do wearing masks should be compulsory, they do not stop you getting it and the people around you without masks should be considered your enemy stay further away. Which includes Donald Trump, because masks do greatly reduce you giving an infection to somebody else, treat people without masks as contagious, treat them like they are zombies, give and request a wide birth from them!

Things could continue like this for several years, claims we will return to normal sooner than later are likely to be very very premature!

Some quality propaganda there LP. Gotta keep up the fear right....

Off the bat, why is it called SARC COV-2? Because it shares so much in common with SARS COV-1 - it really is not 'novel' at all.

There is no science to support the proposition the SARS COV2 has any more long term harmful effects than any other significant respiratory illness that overwhelms your immune system (if you let it). Zero.

There is also overwhelming evidence that there are several very cheap and highly effective treatments (if given early - pre hospitalisation - who would have thought to treat an illness early!) readily available but largely shunned by the powers that be - and the money machines that are Big Pharma.

Masks? Again, zero evidence that there is one iota of benefit to an otherwise healthy person wearing a mask. Zero. And a lot of evidence that wearing said masks can be, and are, harmful.

And heck, aren't we compelled to social distance any way?

It is self evident now (even if not back in March) that COVID19 is a very mild illness in the scale of pandemics over recent millenia. Indeed, in the scale of all things that kill us.

It's mortality rate continues to fall, suggesting the current mutation(s) are relatively benign (which again is the norm for these viruses).

The so called second waves in Europe and the US - nothing but casedemics. and that's there's something of a rise as Europe/US moves into winter just shows the seasonality of the bug.

A good read here by a very well respected Brit - https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-nine-worst-covid-19-biases

That we have to 'test, test, test' to even be aware that there's an issue says it all really (note the absence of data on the false positive rate of the infamous Beijing PCR test here in Victoria nor the number of cycle thresholds, amplifications, they're running with any given test).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on November 12, 2020, 01:29:12 pm
A calculated risk that given the circumstances has to be taken IMO.

Good luck with that.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 12, 2020, 02:02:32 pm
It's interesting to note that Prof Carl Heneghan is professor of evidence-based medicine but he never retracts or revises his articles when new and/or evolving evidence shows that he is wrong.  Of course, his articles aren't peer reviewed and he is paid to write stuff that hooks in readers.

An acquaintance of mine, in his early 50s and with no underlying health issues, contracted COVID-19 earlier this year in the UK.  He spent 90 days in hospital, 75 of those in a coma.  I doubt whether he will ever get back to normal.

I will be wearing a mask, social distancing, washing my hands and generally following the advice of Prof Sutton and his team.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 12, 2020, 02:13:01 pm
Some quality propaganda there LP. Gotta keep up the fear right....
Sure Donald, never give up the fight, we get it.

Off the bat, why is it called SARC COV-2? Because it shares so much in common with SARS COV-1 - it really is not 'novel' at all.
Nice twist of terms, complex and novel are not interchangeable.

There is no science to support the proposition the SARS COV2 has any more long term harmful effects than any other significant respiratory illness that overwhelms your immune system (if you let it). Zero.
That is pretty much a straight out lie claiming the opposite of the growing evidence, and as such not worth discussing.

There is also overwhelming evidence that there are several very cheap and highly effective treatments (if given early - pre hospitalisation - who would have thought to treat an illness early!) readily available but largely shunned by the powers that be - and the money machines that are Big Pharma.
Want to name some, with the evidence linking the scientific study that isn't a distorted retrospective meta-data analysis conducted by dodgy profiteers or will you just go back to Surgisphere,...again, sure not ........HCQ, even Donald din't buy that one when he fell ill, or maybe he was given all those complex and speculative treatments against his free will?

Masks? Again, zero evidence that there is one iota of benefit to an otherwise healthy person wearing a mask. Zero. And a lot of evidence that wearing said masks can be, and are, harmful.
But if you take a homepathic blend of GobSnobling you'll be completely impervious to the virus, as well as free to converse with Karens and Coreys everywhere!

It is self evident now (even if not back in March) that COVID19 is a very mild illness in the scale of pandemics over recent millenia. Indeed, in the scale of all things that kill us.

It's mortality rate continues to fall, suggesting the current mutation(s) are relatively benign (which again is the norm for these viruses).
The second wave data has exposed the exact opposite, and the death rate has settled into a fixed percentage of infections, science is closer to defining R0 at a stable rate that results from all the prophylactic measures including early intervention, masks, social distancing, not in difference to them! Yet in denialist regions like the US the infections rates go through the roof, 135000 in one day in one Mid-West state, after all the various break-outs to protest the election that must have been coincidence!

A good read here by a very well respected Brit - https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-nine-worst-covid-19-biases
Ironic isn't it? Cherry-picking some of the "Types of Bias" and applying them selectively is actually one of the types of bias described, quite bizarre. One in all in! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 12, 2020, 02:58:24 pm
I feel sorry for the denialists and conspiracy nutters now, COVID, Sweden, US hospitals with 96% full critical care beds, China and Russia deathly silent, climate change back on the agenda, life must be hell at the moment.

Donald's gone and Rupert has turned, they've lost the two primary global sources of all the good quality information in just a week.  :'(

How dare Rupert treat them that way, they've been loyal beacons of his global perspective. Who'd have thought Rupert would have dumped them and gone the way of profit over congruity, how could he have possibly identified that the vast majority is more profitable than the whining minority?

Uh-oh, maybe he's not being incongruous at all, could they have missed something, ............... what a bastard! ::)

Donald told them he'd won ...... wtf! :(

Then Malcolm tears Kelly a new one on live television, and what's that Malcolm openly accuses Kelly and/or his cohorts of expressing contradictory beliefs to the Prime Minister in private, surely not! Kelly must engage Giuliani and sue, surely the conversations of the Prime Minister weren't taped! :o

FFS, don't choke on this news, there is nowhere left to get some decent health care, apparently the beds are full of fake patients put there by big Pharma, and borders are closed, now Mexico doesn't even want you it's building a wall!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 12, 2020, 02:59:25 pm
Good luck with that.


I was referring to CSL making stock and potentially having to dump it if it failed to gain approval.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 12, 2020, 05:41:31 pm
Some quality propaganda there LP. Gotta keep up the fear right....

Off the bat, why is it called SARC COV-2? Because it shares so much in common with SARS COV-1 - it really is not 'novel' at all.

There is no science to support the proposition the SARS COV2 has any more long term harmful effects than any other significant respiratory illness that overwhelms your immune system (if you let it). Zero.

There is also overwhelming evidence that there are several very cheap and highly effective treatments (if given early - pre hospitalisation - who would have thought to treat an illness early!) readily available but largely shunned by the powers that be - and the money machines that are Big Pharma.

Masks? Again, zero evidence that there is one iota of benefit to an otherwise healthy person wearing a mask. Zero. And a lot of evidence that wearing said masks can be, and are, harmful.

And heck, aren't we compelled to social distance any way?

It is self evident now (even if not back in March) that COVID19 is a very mild illness in the scale of pandemics over recent millenia. Indeed, in the scale of all things that kill us.

It's mortality rate continues to fall, suggesting the current mutation(s) are relatively benign (which again is the norm for these viruses).

The so called second waves in Europe and the US - nothing but casedemics. and that's there's something of a rise as Europe/US moves into winter just shows the seasonality of the bug.

A good read here by a very well respected Brit - https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-nine-worst-covid-19-biases

That we have to 'test, test, test' to even be aware that there's an issue says it all really (note the absence of data on the false positive rate of the infamous Beijing PCR test here in Victoria nor the number of cycle thresholds, amplifications, they're running with any given test).


Pot calling the kettle black.

Honestly?

We have no real data to show anything conclusive.  Long term affects???  8 months ago we had no idea what was happening.    Long term isnt 8 months.

Australia as a collective has seen all of 30 000 cases.

For a country over 20 million people, that is NOTHING.

Its not a large enough sample size to prove anything, and the timeline hasnt gone on long enough to prove anything.

Remember back in June when everyone said, lets open up, and the Andrews government warned about doing too much too soon??

Well, they did too much too soon, and then we ended up with rising infections (with or without knowledge of what that means).

Then we locked down, and despite everyone stating lockdowns dont work, in this case, it appears it actually did.  We still dont know what that means moving forward, but prevention is better than cure, and no one can tell me that this is misinformation or propaganda.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 12, 2020, 08:25:13 pm
Yep, there are surprises everywhere. Doctors assumed that only people who contracted a severe infection would be at risk of long haul issues. But now it looks as though the severity might be irrelevant - even mild cases can result in long haul symptoms. And then there’s the problem posed by zoonotic transfer to animals such as the mink. The fear is that the virus might mutate and then infect humans, producing a more virulent epidemic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on November 12, 2020, 11:11:58 pm
Sure Donald, never give up the fight, we get it.
Nice twist of terms, complex and novel are not interchangeable.
That is pretty much a straight out lie claiming the opposite of the growing evidence, and as such not worth discussing.
Want to name some, with the evidence linking the scientific study that isn't a distorted retrospective meta-data analysis conducted by dodgy profiteers or will you just go back to Surgisphere,...again, sure not ........HCQ, even Donald din't buy that one when he fell ill, or maybe he was given all those complex and speculative treatments against his free will?
But if you take a homepathic blend of GobSnobling you'll be completely impervious to the virus, as well as free to converse with Karens and Coreys everywhere!
The second wave data has exposed the exact opposite, and the death rate has settled into a fixed percentage of infections, science is closer to defining R0 at a stable rate that results from all the prophylactic measures including early intervention, masks, social distancing, not in difference to them! Yet in denialist regions like the US the infections rates go through the roof, 135000 in one day in one Mid-West state, after all the various break-outs to protest the election that must have been coincidence!
Ironic isn't it? Cherry-picking some of the "Types of Bias" and applying them selectively is actually one of the types of bias described, quite bizarre. One in all in! ;D


LP,  rather than just throw cheap shots my 7yo could parry, put up some data, empirical evidence (basic data or even a RCT study - take your pick) to support any of your positions.

You mentioned HCQ - granted it needs to be taken early (given it's an anti viral in effect) and with zinc et al. - c19study.com - have a read fella, you might just learn something.

But there's also ivermectin, budesonide etc.....but no, we must have a vaccine.

You avoid entirely the issues that drown the PCR test - what does it really test for or was it meant to be solely used as a means to amplify?

How many amplification cycles are too many - the French have suggested more than 24 might be sufficient to land yourself in the bad result space, yet the Burnet Institute's work on the Victorian test (from China and we're the only State to use it) reckons 38 cycles are more or less A ok. That's laughable.

By the by, a positive test result is NOT an infection nor an illness, without accompanying symptoms and diagnoses.

It really was a facile response.

And throwing in the word 'denier' or the like - you dill. Grow the f.. up.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on November 12, 2020, 11:19:58 pm
Pot calling the kettle black.

Honestly?

We have no real data to show anything conclusive.  Long term affects???  8 months ago we had no idea what was happening.    Long term isnt 8 months.

Australia as a collective has seen all of 30 000 cases.

For a country over 20 million people, that is NOTHING.

Its not a large enough sample size to prove anything, and the timeline hasnt gone on long enough to prove anything.

Remember back in June when everyone said, lets open up, and the Andrews government warned about doing too much too soon??

Well, they did too much too soon, and then we ended up with rising infections (with or without knowledge of what that means).

Then we locked down, and despite everyone stating lockdowns dont work, in this case, it appears it actually did.  We still dont know what that means moving forward, but prevention is better than cure, and no one can tell me that this is misinformation or propaganda.

We have a whole bloody world to draw data and experience from.

Yes, we are lucky the virus never really got going here - thanks largely to the fact we're an island a long way from anywhere.

If you think lockdowns fixed 'Dan's little f... up' , you're kidding.

It was beaten well before any of the Stage 3 or 4 measures had any effect - yep, social distancing, quarantining the sick (only) basic hygiene and a dose of common sense are ample - as long as numpties like those who run Victoria aren't derelict in their duties.

as they were, often.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on November 12, 2020, 11:23:35 pm
Pot calling the kettle black.

Honestly?

We have no real data to show anything conclusive.  Long term affects???  8 months ago we had no idea what was happening.    Long term isnt 8 months.

Australia as a collective has seen all of 30 000 cases.

For a country over 20 million people, that is NOTHING.

Its not a large enough sample size to prove anything, and the timeline hasnt gone on long enough to prove anything.

Remember back in June when everyone said, lets open up, and the Andrews government warned about doing too much too soon??

Well, they did too much too soon, and then we ended up with rising infections (with or without knowledge of what that means).

Then we locked down, and despite everyone stating lockdowns dont work, in this case, it appears it actually did.  We still dont know what that means moving forward, but prevention is better than cure, and no one can tell me that this is misinformation or propaganda.

OK Thry or LP (or anyone really),

Show me a nice little research paper that shows Koch's Postulates have been met with respect to SARS COV2 and COVID19.

My ENT buddies are still scrambling on that one....

Causation. Rather important.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on November 12, 2020, 11:25:51 pm
And here's an update on UK/Ireland....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mboEkVl9ooc

It's a scam/plan there too.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on November 12, 2020, 11:33:02 pm
It's interesting to note that Prof Carl Heneghan is professor of evidence-based medicine but he never retracts or revises his articles when new and/or evolving evidence shows that he is wrong.  Of course, his articles aren't peer reviewed and he is paid to write stuff that hooks in readers.

An acquaintance of mine, in his early 50s and with no underlying health issues, contracted COVID-19 earlier this year in the UK.  He spent 90 days in hospital, 75 of those in a coma.  I doubt whether he will ever get back to normal.

I will be wearing a mask, social distancing, washing my hands and generally following the advice of Prof Sutton and his team.

Please provide an example (related to CV19) where Heneghan should have retracted ( or whatever) his work?

Peer review, it's a circus. All but worthless - as the science shows.

https://www.vox.com/2015/12/7/9865086/peer-review-science-problems
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 13, 2020, 08:11:07 am
Peer review, it's a circus. All but worthless - as the science shows.
I suspect from your own perspective this appears 100% correct, but to many of us you seem to have a penchant for picking out bogus predatory journals, unqualified opinions dressed up as a peer review, and mostly very poorly referenced and misunderstood meta data analysis as a scientific studies.

So I suspect it's not the science that has the problem! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on November 13, 2020, 08:23:56 am
Denys science, then claims “science” supports their position... 🙄
Nice work Dennis 🤣
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 13, 2020, 10:07:50 am
We have a whole bloody world to draw data and experience from.

Yes, we are lucky the virus never really got going here - thanks largely to the fact we're an island a long way from anywhere.

If you think lockdowns fixed 'Dan's little f... up' , you're kidding.

It was beaten well before any of the Stage 3 or 4 measures had any effect - yep, social distancing, quarantining the sick (only) basic hygiene and a dose of common sense are ample - as long as numpties like those who run Victoria aren't derelict in their duties.

as they were, often.

Im calling you out on your hypocrisy here.

If you don't like what is being written by anyone, then go for it.

A world of data, yet different strains in different nations, with different biology and different impacts to population.

You might want to have a good hard think about what is what.  Dan's stuff ups as you call it may have caused a wave, but that asserts something that seems to be a fallousy, and let me show you that for a moment.

Had we better quarantine procedures, there would be no second wave.

Yet, in hospital settings, with PPE being worn, we have examples of the virus infecting hospital staff.

Ergo, the quarantine scenario handled 100% properly might have yielded the exact same result over a longer period of time.  It automatically disqualifies your assertion about the quarantine.



"it was well beaten before the measures"....

Its possible the virus was hidden in the community spreading silently.  Therefore this assertion is also nothing but an unprovable assertion.

Yes, we are lucky to live in an island nation, and yes it didnt really get going, but you are asserting that widespread infection occurred irrespective because of stuff ups, so which one is it hypocrite?  It got out of hand because of stuff ups or it didnt get out of hand because of stuff ups, and we are lucky because we are an island?

Can you not see how you continue to run arguments in a fashion where you have a bet each way and call yourself the winner and everyone else the loser??

last I checked the United Kingdom isnt connected to any mainland.  keep that in mind with their 100s of 1000's of cases and their lockdowns.

Lucky they arent an Island I guess...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 13, 2020, 10:35:32 am
@Thryleon Are we wasting time debating the ill, perhaps the better strategy is empathy and gentle steering rather than combative debate?

If we look at the wider trend, disputing authority, cherry-picking news media and social media opinion, the problems and solutions become self evident.

Where does the psychosis come from, how to understand it, how to help those suffering from it?

The weight of science won't win this debate no matter how probable the evidence becomes, because true science is never certain, and the denial exists outside of science yet like the cherry-picked facts it is wrapped in fragments of scientific language and context. Ironically it's the certainty with which the science evidence is denied that exposes the error.

I can't help but feel the Trump Flip is universal, if circumstance bite like they did for Trump, the attitude will temporarily flip like Trump, then after / if recovery occurs, it flips again this time to highlight the recovery in difference to those who didn't! Of course it is true this happens, nobody outside of those seriously disturbed want to die from a case of COVID, but of course some do die as by the time the denial is overcome by concern it's too late! That is the evil in the social media debate, it's increases the death rate, words kill!

From your own perspective, you see the irony in those who argue against action from an economic rationalist perspective, demanding hospital based remediation as the better economic choice! It's a bit like Trump and Musk moving people to Mars as a cheaper alternative to addressing climate change! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 13, 2020, 12:09:25 pm
Being an island continent helps because there’s a body of water between us and infected countries.

The US is in a continent separated from China and European countries by a body of water. The UK is separated from China and European countries by a body of water.

So why are the US & UK facing exponential growth of Covid when Australia isn’t? Maybe the body of water thing isn’t such a great differentiator.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 13, 2020, 12:53:03 pm
So why are the US & UK facing exponential growth of Covid when Australia isn’t? Maybe the body of water thing isn’t such a great differentiator.
On this UK issue, my UK associates would assert freedom to speak is not by definition freedom to speak rubbish.

Freedom to speak rubbish isn't a freedom at all but a form of peer group based oppression which results from the consequences of parroting out rubbish!

They seem to think that the UK and USA suffer this equally, and they get very strong support in the above hypothesis from many associates who have emigrated to the UK or USA from totalitarian or socialist regimes!

I note the language surrounding the Victorian lock-down, the "Dictator Dan" stuff, seems to be very very similar!

Words kill, words expressed in stupidity are even more lethal! It's not stating something wrong that is the problem, it's the stubborn refusal to accept a statement was wrong in the presence of over-arching evidence that is stupid and lethal.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 13, 2020, 12:58:24 pm
It is a big difference given the relative distances and ease of travel access.  Moreover, our comparatively tiny population; i.e. Canada and the United States radically different death rates.  Multitude of reasons
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 13, 2020, 01:13:42 pm
PCR
PCR can be considered analogous to a dogs sense of smell, acute and accurate, it can identify something from a trace.

When a dog detects a fox, it's the dog's sense of smell that detects that first trace, just one of the dogs many built in senses(tests) of a fox. Then the dog's eye, ears, teeth and taste buds confirm it's about to bite on a fox and not just a log the fox once sat on! Those other senses, the other tests the dog can do, determine the truth about the dog's detection.

When deniers or sceptics concentrate on PCR as a critique of Sars-CoV-2 testing. They expose a deeply flawed and fundamental lack of understanding how test, trace and diagnosis work. PCR is potentially just the smell of a virus, there are a host of other tests that confirm the diagnosis, lab tests, scans, observations from medical professionals, it is just that PCR is very very effective at detecting a trace of Sars-CoV-2.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 13, 2020, 01:28:47 pm
Death Rates
Even worse behaviour still, is when PCR test results are deliberately cross compiled with diagnostic results and / or hospitalisations in an attempt to paint deaths rates as declining. PCR forms just one part of diagnosis, it says test here, to which other tests confirm a case! As the rate of confirmed cases rise, the relative number of hospitalisations to PCR tests will drop, due to PCR testing delivering options for early detection, detection and isolation of asymptomatic spreaders, recovered mild cases, and early intervention. But this is Deaths/PCR test number is misrepresented as declining death rates.

However death rates as a percentage of hospitalisation Deaths/Hospitalisation are pretty much a fixed ratio globally, it's a number reached that point where small local variations do not make much difference because the average is being calculated over such a big figure, and in the absence of strong lock-downs and good social distancing practises there will be more hospitalisations resulting in more deaths.

Even News Ltd have conceded and published the real figures recently, you could have knocked me over with a feather, I suppose they'v lost their biggest fan!

As Europe and the USA burns, the sceptics must be swallowing ground teeth while eating their bomb shelter wheatbix, and how do the "preppers" reconcile the conspiracy given they so readily propagate it before locking themselves down, disappearing regularly then periodically surfacing to post another brace of fake claims and false hypothesis before scuttling underground again! The Internets version of rock-throwers!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 13, 2020, 02:35:23 pm
It is a big difference given the relative distances and ease of travel access.  Moreover, our comparatively tiny population; i.e. Canada and the United States radically different death rates.  Multitude of reasons
Really? Americans might believe we’re all Crocodile Dundees who walk around in rural areas while kangaroos hop around close by. We know different. About 80% or more of us live in major coastal cities. These cities aren’t greatly different to US cities. Much of their country also has low-density country areas. Hell, the State of Wyoming only has a total population of about 500,000. Initially, the rural-dominated Red States were fairly untouched by Covid but now they’re in it up to their eyeballs.

Maybe Canada handled Covid much better than the US? After all, being a much colder country on the whole, its population was much more likely to congregate inside to take refuge from the snow and wind and the US has found that winter has been a problem for this reason. Maybe Canadians wear masks?

As for the ease of travel access, Australia had considerable tourist and business traffic, including direct flights from China. We had to deal with cruise ships. The ease of travel access is irrelevant. The only issue is whether there was an inflow of people from overseas. The virus has never cared whether those people have had to travel for days, hours or minutes. Once established in a population a small number of cases can explode exponentially. It’s then a question of whether authorities can suppress it successfully. The US has failed spectacularly.

Only Trumpists would try to blame Mexicans for bringing Covid across the border. Their cases came from people flying in from Europe and China to NY and other major cities. The US could have restricted that travel but chose not to do it. Even the China ban was porous as Americans were able to go there and back at will. Some 40,000 people flew in from China after the ban was imposed.

Simply put, pandemics cross water given air and sea travel. Whether it runs rampant depends on the response to it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 13, 2020, 03:00:29 pm
We can toss around figures all day .... US have near on 14 times our population, UK more than double.  New York alone 8.5 million. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on November 13, 2020, 03:07:54 pm
We can toss around figures all day .... US have near on 14 times our population, UK more than double.  New York alone 8.5 million. 

14x the population, but about 260x the covid death rates.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on November 13, 2020, 03:10:20 pm
I agree with Chris Hedges and Richard Wolff - the handling of the pandemic by the US government was a big factor, but the for-profit-only healthcare system is also culpable. The only developed country that doesn't have universal healthcare.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 13, 2020, 03:16:47 pm
It is a big difference given the relative distances and ease of travel access.  Moreover, our comparatively tiny population; i.e. Canada and the United States radically different death rates.  Multitude of reasons
Death rates, as a count of total deaths over the total case count, tends to hover either side of 3%, excluding one or two outlier countries.

Canada is 3.8%
USA is about 2.3%

I suppose when you talk about deaths 1.5% difference could be considered radical, but you have to keep in mind it is an average about a mean that is influenced heavily by reporting standards and politics.

The USA is a bit contrary, because states report differently dependant on politics there is no Federal standard, just like there is no Federal standard for reporting in Australia which is even more ironic given COVID is a Federal responsibility for Australia. ( I know I hear the naysayers, but if you think it's a State issue, ask yourself why the Feds bought vaccines without consulting the states who will basically buy them off the Feds. Maybe they just did it out of the goodness of Frydenberg's heart! ;D )

A good example of variability, if you die from a heart condition because you can't get into a COVID full hospital, some areas report you as a cardiac failure while others report as a COVID death, both are correct but political preferences mean most choose to report one or the other including the deniers. But it's no different than when people fleeing a bush fire die in a car crash, it's a death due to the bush fire and a road fatality. Correct reporting lists both, not one or the other, like falling off the ladder getting out of your burning 2nd story bedroom is a death from fire and ladder fall!

The global average barely deviates from 3% as each new week passes.

The huge variation region to region is deaths per million of population, which is basically a function of intervention strategy over lethality.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 13, 2020, 04:23:07 pm
Yep LP ... agree with all that
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on November 17, 2020, 11:27:14 am
https://theconversation.com/moderna-follows-pfizer-with-exciting-vaccine-news-how-to-read-these-dramatic-developments-149935
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 17, 2020, 11:38:50 am
https://theconversation.com/moderna-follows-pfizer-with-exciting-vaccine-news-how-to-read-these-dramatic-developments-149935
COVID treatment looks almost certainly to be administered like Influenza vaccine, so we shouldn't be surprised to find out the vaccination is going to be annual. I suspect this is why Vic is building a new billion dollar production facility, plus the transport/logistical issues. I note when COVID started and the transport restrictions hit very large shipments of Influenza vaccine went bad sitting stuck in transit.

People like Trump and Boris want to be very careful in declaring their immunity to soon, firstly because there are different SARs-CoV-2 strains and there is no direct evidence yet getting one delivers immunity against the others, secondly almost all reputable studies so far have shown a massive decline in anti-body counts over a 4 to 6 month period after any infection. That is on parity with Influenza immunity, which requires annual vaccination to be given at the right moment to get people through the high risk period.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 17, 2020, 05:22:34 pm
Its back on in Adelaide, Covid panickers hording and sending us back to the dark days when this started.
https://au.yahoo.com/news/got-kidding-coles-shopper-blasted-selfish-act-215119274.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 17, 2020, 10:44:22 pm
We should close the border with the Croweaters  ;)

Imagine how the bogan with a slogan would respond to that  ::)

I guess it just shows how difficult it is to keep COVID in check without a vaccine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 18, 2020, 08:41:26 am
Its back on in Adelaide, Covid panickers hording and sending us back to the dark days when this started.
https://au.yahoo.com/news/got-kidding-coles-shopper-blasted-selfish-act-215119274.html
FMD, Kimberley Clark in Mount Gambier South Australia make about 30% of the countries bog roll at that site. SA won't have a shortage if the borders close, they'll be buried alive in the stuff, KC will probably have to wind back production to stop Mount Gambier looking like a giant popcorn maker!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on November 18, 2020, 10:22:01 am
https://theconversation.com/buying-and-distributing-a-covid-19-vaccine-will-involve-hard-ethical-and-practical-choices-149980

https://theconversation.com/we-may-have-to-accept-a-good-enough-covid-19-vaccine-at-least-in-2021-148168

https://theconversation.com/you-may-be-able-to-buy-a-covid-vaccine-ahead-of-the-government-rollout-but-jumping-the-queue-comes-at-a-price-149972
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 18, 2020, 10:31:24 am
I see you've found "The Conversation" @PaulP‍ , it is generally not a popular site because of the way it's governed, crackpots do not get to post there!

On the queue jumpers, buying stuff off the Internet is fraught with danger, and for many reasons might not deliver the result the jumpers need. For example, injections are not all the same, they can or may need to be Subcutaneous (into the fat layer between the skin and muscle), Intramuscular (deep into a muscle) or Intravenous (through a vein) to be effective. If you don't know what you're doing you can waste the effort and expense as well as potentially be harmful. Secondly, you are buying from a OS source, that might not have a solution for the strain that is dominant in your domestic location, but they will still sell it to you.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on November 18, 2020, 10:34:57 am
I see you've found "The Conversation" @PaulP‍ , it is generally not a popular site because of the way it's governed, crackpots do not get to post there!

I've been reading them for about 12 months. Very good site IMO. When our finances improve, I'll certainly take up a subscription.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 18, 2020, 10:47:44 am
I've been reading them for about 12 months. Very good site IMO. When our finances improve, I'll certainly take up a subscription.
It's good even as a freebie, donating is optional. I previously would get full access when I was working with CSIRO via the CSIRO network as CSIRO are a partner/sponsor, I really miss the electronic journals I had access to during those projects. I'm not involved with any CSIRO projects at the moment so for now I'll stay as a free user, I can't say I've noticed much of a difference not having the sponsor/user access, if there is even any, but I do believe organisations that sponsor get some different level of access and editorial, at least that use to be the situation.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 18, 2020, 01:21:13 pm
With what appears to be Sars-CoV-2 having a 14 to 21 day incubation period, South Australia locking down for 6 days doesn't seem to be much more than a political move, it's a bit piss-weak really!

I realise the issues are proportionally smaller in SA, but even so how does a lock-down work within a six day period, how do they setup, will they even be finished closing avenues of distention by the time it ends?

So I suspect it'll be 6 days, as a politically agreeable starter, until about day 4 or 5 when it gets extended.

My associates in the UK said spot fires in various counties took about 4 weeks to stabilise, then the lunatics broke free protesting against restricted freedoms and effectively put a torch to earlier efforts and buried any progress they had made!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 18, 2020, 11:41:37 pm
My guess is to help tracing.  The quarantine period hasn't changed for positives and close contacts.

Locking everyone else down means if you get on top of the early spread you win.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 19, 2020, 11:16:24 am
My guess is to help tracing.  The quarantine period hasn't changed for positives and close contacts.

Locking everyone else down means if you get on top of the early spread you win.
Yep, epidemiologists are saying the 6 days is enough to break the cycle, primarily because the South Australian lock-down will be severe and the SA public are expected to be compliant over the week having seen what happened in Victoria.

 So I suppose if that is true, it seems the dissenters must have been the really the big problem in Victoria!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 19, 2020, 11:26:43 am
Ive noticed a trend during covid.  There are logical reasons behind each and every action taken even if it seems like there isn't.  You can find hypocrisies in each decision too.

Thing is thats not the point. An early 6 day lockdown is borderline sufficient provided people both get tested when they display the appropriate symptoms and isolate properly in the interim.

It all falls over when they don't get tested and fail to isolate appropriately.

A perfect example of this phenomenon is the rhetoric about mask wearing and how it doesnt help given you can take it off when you're out at a dinner service.  Thing is, if you wear it before meals and after meals that will eliminate about 4 or 5 contacts on the way to the table and passing people in the streets.  Sure the chances of it being effective reduce with more take off put on and handling, but the chances of transmission and contraction reduce with each step you take even if its not 100% effective.

Fact of the matter is, nothing is completely effective and all you're doing is reducing chance of transmission overall not elimination.

This is where the argument gets lost and is muddied.  Its akin to advocating that seatbelts don't work because people don't wear them properly or because the chance of incident isn't that high and if a serious incident occurs it wont help, but thats wrong.  Thing is its all about playing the percentages.  Assuming I have covid and you don't, the chance of you catching covid off me is reduced if both wearing masks is the important bit.  The fact that it happens anyway or is suspect is quite irrelevant. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Tragic on November 19, 2020, 11:56:49 am
Ive noticed a trend during covid.  There are logical reasons behind each and every action taken even if it seems like there isn't.  You can find hypocrisies in each decision too.

Thing is thats not the point. An early 6 day lockdown is borderline sufficient provided people both get tested when they display the appropriate symptoms and isolate properly in the interim.

It all falls over when they don't get tested and fail to isolate appropriately.

A perfect example of this phenomenon is the rhetoric about mask wearing and how it doesnt help given you can take it off when you're out at a dinner service.  Thing is, if you wear it before meals and after meals that will eliminate about 4 or 5 contacts on the way to the table and passing people in the streets.  Sure the chances of it being effective reduce with more take off put on and handling, but the chances of transmission and contraction reduce with each step you take even if its not 100% effective.

Fact of the matter is, nothing is completely effective and all you're doing is reducing chance of transmission overall not elimination.

This is where the argument gets lost and is muddied.  Its akin to advocating that seatbelts don't work because people don't wear them properly or because the chance of incident isn't that high and if a serious incident occurs it wont help, but thats wrong.  Thing is its all about playing the percentages.  Assuming I have covid and you don't, the chance of you catching covid off me is reduced if both wearing masks is the important bit.  The fact that it happens anyway or is suspect is quite irrelevant. 

i didn't realise logic is allowed when discussing covid...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 19, 2020, 12:34:53 pm
This is where the argument gets lost and is muddied.  Its akin to advocating that seatbelts don't work because people don't wear them properly
There it is @Thryleon‍ , the biggest issue, the behaviour of some minority of people!

The seatbelt issue is noice example, because the injured, the same injured that were not wearing a seatbelt, will often lawyer up and try to sue somebody for compo, which ultimately costs us all!

Deniers, Protesters, Conspiracy Nutters ==========> Victoria's past 6 months!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on November 19, 2020, 01:19:22 pm
Problems originating from a quarantine facility... Is that the SA premier's fault?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 19, 2020, 01:23:43 pm
Problems originating from a quarantine facility... Is that the SA premier's fault?
 But they used the army? :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 20, 2020, 07:16:52 am
The news said last night that one of the guards had a side gig as a food delivery driver whilst infectious.

Its all a bit of history repeating really.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 20, 2020, 08:33:34 am
The news said last night that one of the guards had a side gig as a food delivery driver whilst infectious.

Its all a bit of history repeating really.
Surely that's social media or News Ltd taking the piss!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on November 20, 2020, 09:28:18 am
How much is dependent on the individual really hit home last week for yours truly.

I was booked in for a gastroscopy and colonoscopy this week so had to have a C-19 test a few days before the procedure. I had the test last Friday, early arvo... the nose bit aint pleasant. Then I got a text at around 4am Saturday to say I was clear... barely human  ;)  :))  but certainly clear of C-19. After the test I was informed to go straight home and self isolate until the procedure (Tuesday this week). It occurred to me just how easy it would be to forget and go to the shops! Or even ignore the advice! I was a good lad and complied to the letter, helped in no small part by the person who conducted the test who really, verbally, emphasized going straight home and quarantining myself. I wonder how many people really do read the 5 or so pages of info you're given after the test?

(I have colonoscopies every 3 years as we lost our mum to bowel cancer at age 51 - all 3 of her children have now out lived her... still saddening. I've been having the colonoscopies for over 20 years and about 10 years ago a couple of tiny polyps were removed from the bowel right where my mother's cancer had developed! The gastroscopy was for celiac's as I've recently become a little sensitive to gluten - small biopsy taken to assess this... apart from this all good in the guts. Colonoscopy all clear, also.).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 20, 2020, 09:55:37 am
Good to hear Baggers ... but not so good about losing your mum.  My mother was suddenly gone at 53, but I did kiss her goodbye in the morning before I left for work .... 8 hours later ... sigh
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on November 20, 2020, 10:55:27 am
Thank you, CC. Every year mum's gone I realize just how young she was... like your mum. Like you, I did have important moments before mum passed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 20, 2020, 01:05:54 pm
The Donziger story on the climate thread appears so similar to a horrible side effect of all this global COVID stuff, that is just starting to play out.

Multinationals that are hurting are searching for a every penny they can find, and looking to step on small domestic operators in the process, and they are doing so using fiscal and legal muscle with deep lawyered up pockets in the courts. It is probably multinational business 101, pick off the weak before they recover, kick them while they are down, etc., etc., ettc..!

I suppose we see much the same in the international political argy-bargy  between China and Australia.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 20, 2020, 06:37:06 pm
Problems originating from a quarantine facility... Is that the SA premier's fault?
Turns out some f-wit lied to contact tracers about his movements causing the lockdown which is being removed on Sunday.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 20, 2020, 06:37:33 pm
But they used the army? :o
Private security.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on November 22, 2020, 11:47:33 am
https://theconversation.com/very-convincing-evidence-pfizer-now-has-the-data-it-needs-to-apply-for-covid-vaccine-approval-150443
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 22, 2020, 12:06:29 pm
Private security.
 How can that be?  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 22, 2020, 02:13:41 pm
The guy that
How can that be?  ::)
The guy that lied was a private security guard working hotel quarantine and a pizza shop.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 22, 2020, 02:40:42 pm
I think LP had his tongue firmly planted in his cheek, alluding to the outrage over Victoria going with private security.

In reality, there was nothing surprising about governments using private security. Perhaps police might have been better suited but they have political power and were never likely to accept the responsibility. Governments know that ordering police to do something they don’t want to do would result in the Police Association mobilising members to actively campaign against the government. And there are over 21,000 of them. Prison guards and nurses would probably be either too brutal or not brutal enough and are needed in their day jobs. Soldiers are hardly trained for this responsibility, especially where the powers over quarantined people are a bit unclear. But would troops come with strings attached: e.g. if you don’t open up schools & businesses right now, we’ll pull out the troops?

When State Governments have been stripped down to eliminate excess capacity, the neo-conservative model dictates that governments need to rely on pivate enterprise to fill the gaps.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on November 22, 2020, 03:04:57 pm
I would have thought that Protective Services officers (Guarda Civilia) would have been suited to the task.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 22, 2020, 03:17:01 pm
Weren’t they busy protecting stuff? It’s not like there’s a crowd of them waiting in a car park for a pick-up truck to pull up and for the driver to say he wants 5 guys to hop into the back.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on November 22, 2020, 03:22:00 pm
Was this option and ways to make it work seriously considered? Just curious.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 22, 2020, 03:34:24 pm
The option of reassigning police was considered. The Pol. Commissioner said they didn’t want to be on the first line of guards but would be the 2nd line, i.e. if someone ran away from a quarantine facility, they’d go after them.

The problem with reassigning people, whether it be police, prison officers, nurses or PSOs is that guarding quarantine facilities isn’t in their job descriptions. You can ask them nicely, but they can say no. Just as well, otherwise the Federal Government could transfer public servants and federal police to the infantry rather than bothering with conscription.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on November 22, 2020, 03:49:53 pm
Was specifically guarding quarantine facilities in anyone's job description at that time of emergency? I was under the impression that PS officers are primarily performing guarding duties in order to spare police officers from that type of firstline  duty?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 22, 2020, 04:00:08 pm
AFAIK, there are PSOs who patrol railway infrastructure. There probably are other PSOs who are specifically detailed to protect courts and the parliament building. But I don’t know whether there’s a flying squad of PSOs who can be sent anywhere they’re needed. And, of course, even if there were there’d be nothing like an unbreakable contract in the military: if a PSO didn’t want to run the risk, he or she could just resign effective immediately (if the PSOs Union didn’t pull everybody out on strike instead).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on November 22, 2020, 04:36:41 pm
A lot of speculation.  I'd still like to hear an explanation from those actually  in the know.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 22, 2020, 05:45:33 pm
If you’re lucky, you might be able to track down videos of the many press conferences and see if this was covered. Otherwise, as the Rolling Stones were wont to say, “You can’t always get what you want”.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on November 22, 2020, 07:33:55 pm
I was hoping for "Let there be more light" but maybe it's more "Welcome to the Machine".
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on November 24, 2020, 09:37:43 am
https://theconversation.com/why-the-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-is-now-a-global-game-changer-150660
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 24, 2020, 10:01:09 am
https://theconversation.com/why-the-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-is-now-a-global-game-changer-150660
Yes, it's often the logistical issues that make or break a medicine, and something that doesn't need cryogenic distribution, as well as being suitable for tailored delivery, is a big game changer. The two features combine to deliver the cheapest and fastest global solution.

For example, you can give low risk populations a lower dose and still get partial protection, while high risk populations get the full booster and obtain very high levels of protection. Many of you are already familiar with vaccines that work this way, we've either been getting vaccines for travel or having our children immunised in that two stage/tier fashion for many decades.

What is even more exciting long term, is the idea a low cost effective vaccine like this might become available for the more common corona(cold) virus. While that won't really benefit healthy young people, there is a whole gamut of society that are at very high risk from a simple cold.

The Oxford team need special kudos, there two tier trial significantly compresses the process and I think that puts them in the lead, it's probably going to change how these things are done from now on, in the past this dose/efficacy part of the development would have been completed sequentially and added years to the process.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 24, 2020, 01:06:18 pm
Got to laugh with a tinge of sadness about the China COVID situation.

For a country that reports it has stuff "under control" and asserts it's had a vaccine available for months, the Shanghai Airport situation seems somewhat contradictory! :o

And so falls another pillar of COVID denialism, I've also read that China is now blaming Italy for Sars-CoV-2, but that appears to be a gross generalisation of the connection to Horseshoe bats which have wide ranging variants. The science now indicating the specific zoonosis is highly likely to be very closely connected to a specific Chinese Horseshoe bat (Rhinolophus sinicus) population in mainland China! ::)

Interestingly, it looks like the science is stronger than ever that both Sars and Sars-CoV-2 share the very same zoonosis.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 29, 2020, 01:46:19 pm
https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/signs-sweden-has-lost-faith-with-covid-expert-anders-tegnell-as-deaths-rise-20201129-p56iu2.html

A bit slow to report his, the changes started happening 3 or 4 weeks back, but once 20 and 30 year fit and healthy types started dying or being severely disabled by suffering long term effects it was all over for this immunity strategy. Once it became the sons and daughters of the decision makers some who were previous COVID deniers, attitudes changed!

The nail on naysayers and deniers completely ignore the long term symptoms of many COVID survivors, it's like the deniers can only see or understand two binary states in complete ignorance of the middle ground, you live or you die in their eyes!

While not all people suffer severe or long term effects, living through COVID is not like being guaranteed to survive in full health, there is nothing further from the truth! It looks like for every person that dies, there is at least another one who will live with long term effects, like loss of limb control or locomotion, incontinence, liver, heart disease, lung disease or mental impairment.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 03, 2020, 05:58:22 pm
If so much as one of these muppet tennis players brings covid to Melbourne, said player, Craig Tiley and Dictator Dan need a bullet between the eyes. >:(  >:(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on December 03, 2020, 07:53:36 pm
https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/signs-sweden-has-lost-faith-with-covid-expert-anders-tegnell-as-deaths-rise-20201129-p56iu2.html

A bit slow to report his, the changes started happening 3 or 4 weeks back, but once 20 and 30 year fit and healthy types started dying or being severely disabled by suffering long term effects it was all over for this immunity strategy. Once it became the sons and daughters of the decision makers some who were previous COVID deniers, attitudes changed!

The nail on naysayers and deniers completely ignore the long term symptoms of many COVID survivors, it's like the deniers can only see or understand two binary states in complete ignorance of the middle ground, you live or you die in their eyes!

While not all people suffer severe or long term effects, living through COVID is not like being guaranteed to survive in full health, there is nothing further from the truth! It looks like for every person that dies, there is at least another one who will live with long term effects, like loss of limb control or locomotion, incontinence, liver, heart disease, lung disease or mental impairment.

I understand that Sweden has constitutional provisions that won't allow them to impose lockdown measures; it has to be voluntary.

While Sweden has done poorly in comparison to their neighbours, their results are still considerably better than Belgium, the UK and the USA.  It seems that ethnic Swedes are used self-isolating and complying with requests from Government.  More recent immigrants don't have the same cultural attributes and, anecdotally at least, are bearing the brunt of COVID.

BTW, an acquaintance of mine in the UK spent 90 days in hospital and 75 of those in a coma after contracting COVID.  I suspect that his quality of life will be much poorer for the experience.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on December 03, 2020, 07:55:02 pm
If so much as one of these muppet tennis players brings covid to Melbourne, said player, Craig Tiley and Dictator Dan need a bullet between the eyes. >:(  >:(

Are the Pakistani cricketers due here this summer?  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 03, 2020, 08:24:20 pm
Are the Pakistani cricketers due here this summer?  ::)

Don't think so ... just India and NZ
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on December 03, 2020, 11:31:15 pm
Don't think so ... just India and NZ

But the Kiwis are playing Pakistan ... if the latter can get out of quarantine 🙄
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 07, 2020, 10:14:40 am
Interesting to see that it was a police officer in Sydney who allowed the German tourists to fly out to Melbourne. Admittedly, s/he was on the 2nd day on the job but how many days on the job would you need to understand that putting a couple of possibly infected people in a plane might not be a good idea? Seems that it’s hard for people to resist sob stories or charming pleas. They need the Little Brittain “The computer says no” woman.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 07, 2020, 01:22:59 pm
Seen some ugly behaviour about today, mask deniers out and about making mask wearers feel uncomfortable.

It's not the mask deniers fault, they are thin brained types who associate masks as the root of all evil and the primary cause of their recent problems, they can't see a virus but they can see a mask. ;)

It's people like Trump that are to blame, he's burning the planet with his rhetoric, but the GOP are too scared to stop him even when it seems he is now hurting the GOP's senate election chances.

One thing that seems to have flown over the heads of the media, is Trump's recent signing of the bills relating to Chinese ownership. It's being talked up as a positive which it probably is, if it gets implemented, but nobody is asking why now, what barrier was removed that stopped Trump signing this order sooner, one made of cash I presume!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 07, 2020, 02:34:08 pm
We wont be wearing them anymore shortly anyway.

FWIW, there is no danger of transmission currently.  This may change very quickly, and I am betting that the Government actually want it to occur given this gives them a chance to wipe the egg off their faces for hotel quarantine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 07, 2020, 03:04:24 pm
We wont be wearing them anymore shortly anyway.

FWIW, there is no danger of transmission currently.  This may change very quickly, and I am betting that the Government actually want it to occur given this gives them a chance to wipe the egg off their faces for hotel quarantine.
The current situation has nothing to do with COVID, it's a behavioural issue.

The "We" part is a little presumptuous, there will be some individuals who will want to wear masks forever more just like the public do in much of Asia now. They should be free to do so without abuse, it's like choosing to be vegan and harms nobody!

The naysayers are claiming the removal of restrictions are a vindication, and that the falling numbers are also a vindication, proof that the restrictions were never needed. It's a completely back to front perspective, they completely fall to associate the falling infection rate and removal of masks as a result of the restrictions.

I saw great irony in the person who has probably rallied against wearing of masks as a restriction of liberty, rallying against peoples freedom of choice to wear a mask!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on December 07, 2020, 04:07:31 pm
I saw great irony in the person who has probably rallied against wearing of masks as a restriction of liberty, rallying against peoples freedom of choice to wear a mask!

Absolutely LP.  I reckon the 'sheeple' are the anti-maskers.

It was interesting listening to Norman Swann on the wireless this morning.  We're not out of the woods yet.  So much depends on people doing the right thing ... as well as vaccinations being available and working as intended.

BTW, Dr Swann reckons the next pandemic will be an influenza virus - something to look forward to  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 07, 2020, 05:24:35 pm
Absolutely LP.  I reckon the 'sheeple' are the anti-maskers.

It was interesting listening to Norman Swann on the wireless this morning.  We're not out of the woods yet.  So much depends on people doing the right thing ... as well as vaccinations being available and working as intended.

BTW, Dr Swann reckons the next pandemic will be an influenza virus - something to look forward to  ::)
Going to have trouble convincing health workers to have the first up vaccine, quite a few nurses and hospital staff baulking at being the initial test lab rats. Some surveys were sent out and a lot came back as a No Thanks but happy to receive later
I think the UK initial distribution and side effects etc will have a large bearing on the take up here in Aus.
Most Hospitals are expecting another wave in winter and staffing requirements are already being discussed and leave applicants told there are no guarantees of being granted leave.
Some scary reading here...https://au.yahoo.com/news/india-hundreds-infected-mysterious-deadly-illness-040435270.html..
We dont want any tourists for a long while, bad enough with those two Germans here in Aus being allowed to travel by a rookie police officer with 2 days experience on the job..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on December 07, 2020, 06:31:46 pm
Going to have trouble convincing health workers to have the first up vaccine, quite a few nurses and hospital staff baulking at being the initial test lab rats. Some surveys were sent out and a lot came back as a No Thanks but happy to receive later
I think the UK initial distribution and side effects etc will have a large bearing on the take up here in Aus.
Most Hospitals are expecting another wave in winter and staffing requirements are already being discussed and leave applicants told there are no guarantees of being granted leave.
Some scary reading here...https://au.yahoo.com/news/india-hundreds-infected-mysterious-deadly-illness-040435270.html..
We dont want any tourists for a long while, bad enough with those two Germans here in Aus being allowed to travel by a rookie police officer with 2 days experience on the job..

Interestingly, a 'lab rat' called in and spoke to Dr Swann about her experiences testing the vaccine.  She had a sore arm for a couple of days but no ill effects.

Swann was explaining how supplies of the vaccines will be limited and it will be a targeted immunisation program with health workers, aged care workers and the elderly as first cabs off the rank.  Pregnant women (or women hoping to become pregnant) and children won't get the vaccines until further testing demonstrates that they are safe for those groups.  All testing to date has been with adults and pregnant women are excluded.

It was interesting to hear how the vaccines use different pathways to counter the virus.  They are very different to the vaccines developed previously for other diseases.

By the way, the "Germans" are both Australian citizens. 

Imagine the outcry if it had happened at Melbourne Airport.  Nothing sticks to Teflon Gladys and Mr Potato Head  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on December 10, 2020, 07:12:49 pm
https://theconversation.com/the-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-is-the-first-to-publish-peer-reviewed-efficacy-results-heres-what-they-tell-us-and-what-they-dont-151755
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 10, 2020, 11:46:58 pm
Adenovirus from chimps....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 11, 2020, 08:14:07 am
Most vaccines come as some sort of animal byproduct, there is a great 40min episode of Radiolab that talks about the history of vaccines, and perhaps the most successful scientist ever to create them, and what are the costs of making them.

https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/great_vaccinator
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on December 11, 2020, 08:42:36 pm
What is a vaccine?

Simple, non medical definition.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/vaccine

Quote
a substance containing a virus or bacterium in a form that is not harmful, given to a person or animal to prevent them from getting the disease that the virus or bacterium causes.

WHat little do we know about the Pfizer vaccine recently given to Will Shakespeare (someone's taking the piss)and another old dear in the UK?

1. It does not prevent someone from catching the virus
2. It does not prevent transmission of the virus
3. At best, it likely reduces the severity of symptoms (but then so do the HCQ and Ivermectin cocktails). Both cheap, safe and well understood.

So, in essence, it's fails the test. It ain't a vaccine.

Oh, and heard the stories about the 'vaccine' causing Bell's Palsy?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 12, 2020, 10:19:29 am
5 cases today. Third wave here we come!!!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 12, 2020, 12:40:37 pm
5 cases today. Third wave here we come!!!!
They are all in quarantine as international arrivals, this is probably the new COVID normal so we better get use to it!

It's a a genuine test of how it's setup and managed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 12, 2020, 12:49:17 pm
What is a vaccine?

Simple, non medical definition.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/vaccine

WHat little do we know about the Pfizer vaccine recently given to Will Shakespeare (someone's taking the piss)and another old dear in the UK?

1. It does not prevent someone from catching the virus
2. It does not prevent transmission of the virus
3. At best, it likely reduces the severity of symptoms (but then so do the HCQ and Ivermectin cocktails). Both cheap, safe and well understood.

So, in essence, it's fails the test. It ain't a vaccine.

Oh, and heard the stories about the 'vaccine' causing Bell's Palsy?
We need not take notice of moist of the social media rubbish, Joe Average will always find correlations instead of causation and that invented Down Syndrome and Palsy rubbish is laughable! It's simply the case that given a big enough study with enough participants there will be a correlation between any number of diseases the vaccine or drug being tested, of course the participants always claim it the drug or vaccine, even when they got the placebo!

No vaccine is 100% benign, if you feed a million people peanuts or eggs you could have as many if not more deaths or adverse reactions than you get from virtually any vaccine! Many vaccines are made from eggs! ;)

No HCQ and Ivermectin do not reduce symptoms like a vaccine does, and both those given in the same aggressive doses as Trump recieved increase the likelihood of death from other complications, at the doses required to be even minimally effective they have to be administered under hospitalisation so the cost of the drug is just a trivial part of the treatment which is Trump's lie!

The cocktail of drugs Trump and Giuliani received cost about US$130K to administer and monitor in hospital per patient, so Trump and Giuliani's treatment regime if made available to just 10% of US citizen's like Trump claimed would cost the USA more than $4 Trillion dollars, that's high but about 4x what he offered when he offered to buy the USA exclusive rights for the Pfizer vaccine! When Trump made the offer, he low-balled the real costs of hospitalisation treatment for COVID, as much as he is a Clark Kent he is not a financial idiot, he or his associates probably holds shares in some of the drug companies as well! The vaccines in any form will cost about 1/100th that amount!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 12, 2020, 12:57:28 pm
Remdesivir is the one that reduces the symptoms and length of hospital stay.

Flyboy77 has mixed his arguments up.

Aside from that you can keep this vaccine i dont want it.  I dont trust it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 12, 2020, 01:05:46 pm
Remdesivir is the one that reduces the symptoms and length of hospital stay.

Flyboy77 has mixed his arguments up.

Aside from that you can keep this vaccine i dont want it.  I dont trust it.
Yep, ignoring the debate about HCQ and other treatments, it's all a fundamentally flawed debate in the shadow of prevention.

The vaccination decision that's your choice, it's everyone's choice, but then should there be some consequence of exercising that right to choose?

For example, if you work in a hospital/health system and refuse the vaccination, should you be allowed to continue work and mingle amongst those most vulnerable or those in contact with the vulnerable?

It looks like no vaccine no fly, the main reason appears to be airline liability and nothing to do with preventing transmission. What of the rights of the airline staff, the other passengers, the thousands of 3rd world dwellers you visit and brush past getting that cheap SE Asian holiday, kids who'll never be given or can afford a vaccination, hospitalisation or qualified care, but still deliver your poolside cocktail and buffet lunch? Bad luck for them?

What rights your elderly relatives, some may have cardiovascular or respiratory disease, still going to visit them at Christmas, do you still expect to roll up and have them provide you a feast at Easter while you potentially give them far more in return?

Interesting, this idea of freedom to choose, .................... choose what?

Vaccines are as much about if not more about protecting those around you, not just yourself!

We sit here under a banner of freedom, built on volunteers who chose to protect us when we couldn't protect ourselves, it seems to make the taking of an injection a relatively trivial sacrifice!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 12, 2020, 02:54:32 pm
Qantas is dead right.  Proof or no uplift at point of departure regardless of the port on THEIR metal.  Effectively, that's an abolition of code share with all their One World partners who issue tickets under the "QF" designator when it is those airlines who own the aircraft ... and there's plenty of them that operate under that arrangement ... and that will enforce those carriers' needs to fall into line with the homegrown initiative lest THEY risk their own liability. 


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on December 13, 2020, 11:53:27 am

Interesting article on the FB group “Blocked by Pete Evans” this morning on the issue of the drug companies seeking to profit and the first world governments prepurchasing a massive stockpile of vaccine at the expense of poorer countries.
I think the gist was that Australia has in excess of 100m doses, whereas the Philippines has enough for 1.5% of their population...

https://www.facebook.com/1508618869400880/posts/2703984163197672/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 13, 2020, 12:45:36 pm
Interesting article on the FB group “Blocked by Pete Evans” this morning on the issue of the drug companies seeking to profit and the first world governments prepurchasing a massive stockpile of vaccine at the expense of poorer countries.
I think the gist was that Australia has in excess of 100m doses, whereas the Philippines has enough for 1.5% of their population...

https://www.facebook.com/1508618869400880/posts/2703984163197672/
Just addressing more Facebook rubbish, things so easily debunked.

Australia has ordered just enough to vaccinate everyone in the country if everyone wanted it, two doses per person that is about 50m.

But it hasn't even been delivered or manufactured yet, so that also shows the idea of stockpiling is just rubbish.

What Western Governments are doing is guaranteeing to manufacturers is that if they setup locally to make the vaccine then they will buy a certain amount of vaccine to cover the setup costs. So at this stage the Aust Government has agreed to purchase up to 50m doses from four potential suppliers, but the UoQ is already out of the race so now that is back to Pfizer, Moderna and AstraZeneca.

The excess doses of that guaranteed purchase of vaccine will be donated to countries that cannot afford to make their own, and in fact Australia is the leader in calling for this to happen! But perhaps Philippines isn't likely to be one of them, as it is easily populous and wealthy enough to make it's own vaccine. However small and poor countries like Fiji, PNG, Cooke Islands, Myanmar, Haiti, Sri Lanka and other poor Pacific Island, Sth American or African states are likely to be recipients.

It's a bit ironic for some on Facebook to claim this is inhumane, it exposes an anti-vaccination position, or vested interests!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on December 13, 2020, 12:52:48 pm
You didn’t read the link LP.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 13, 2020, 01:05:12 pm
You didn’t read the link LP.
Sorry @northernblue, I was referring to some of the FB claims that prompt that post, I've become a bit too quick to shoot in recent times because the amount of rubbish being posted on FB and Instagram is truly extraordinary.

As for profit, I'm not overly concerned, because Pfizer and Moderna won't get many big buyers as governments know the costs. They aren't going to be able to sell it at 1000% margin like they do some other drugs. And if they want to sell at a margin, 20%, 50 or even 100% it's still going to be way way cheaper than treatment. FWIW, one of the side benefits of this accelerated trial and approval process is that the R&D cost is massively reduced!

But I think you'll find they'll buckle because there will be huge pressure on all their other product lines, they'll be ostracised by the various state regulators.

Astrazeneca (Oxford) are the smart players in this, they are effectively allowing people to gear up at no premium, by offering the vaccine at cost it causes countries to invest in compatible manufacturing technology that gives them a huge advantage going forward when licensing other drugs.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on December 13, 2020, 06:29:24 pm
I posted about Bill Gates commentary on Covid and vaccinations......from about 4 months ago?

Anyway, short version is he said that all the big companies will charge developed countries as expected....this will allow the companies to make enough of a profit that they will manufacture for the rest of world....even those countries that can't afford it will be covered by the 'rich countries' like us.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 13, 2020, 08:58:57 pm
They are all in quarantine as international arrivals, this is probably the new COVID normal so we better get use to it!

It's a a genuine test of how it's setup and managed.
There should be the following international protocol to return home:
1. quarantine in a hotel at departure port for 14days, two negative tests and you can board.
2. 14 days quarantine on arrival, two negative tests and you can go home.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 13, 2020, 11:52:18 pm
There should be the following international protocol to return home:
1. quarantine in a hotel at departure port for 14days, two negative tests and you can board.
2. 14 days quarantine on arrival, two negative tests and you can go home.
You can be infected the second you leave either quarantine, you can be infected boarding or taking the Uber home, the interval is arbitrary the reason for quarantine is traceability.

The only effective prevention regime is social distancing, masks and a vaccine, everything else is about traceability.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 16, 2020, 12:33:21 pm
"The state government is pushing for pre-flight COVID-19 testing for overseas passengers landing in Melbourne, as seven infected travellers remain in hotel quarantine." - HS

What a great idea.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 16, 2020, 01:15:39 pm
"The state government is pushing for pre-flight COVID-19 testing for overseas passengers landing in Melbourne, as seven infected travellers remain in hotel quarantine." - HS

What a great idea.
How do you police that?

Will you trust all foreign authorities to give passengers the all clear and rubber stamp?

It appears a clear and growing risk is flight crews, and passengers are in intimate contact with them!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 16, 2020, 01:15:54 pm
In principle GTC, yes ... in practice, radically different.  ALL carriers operating into Australia MUST be members of IATA (Intl air transport association) but that don't have the authority to alter the T&Cs for all passenger uplift across all carriers.  Only the federal govt can enforce that, a state government cannot.

That's why Qantas has started the push.  The complexity of bringing that into being universally, well, I could write a book about that.  Minefields
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 16, 2020, 01:23:36 pm
In principle GTC, yes ... in practice, radically different.  ALL carriers operating into Australia MUST be members of IATA (Intl air transport association) but that don't have the authority to alter the T&Cs for all passenger uplift across all carriers.  Only the federal govt can enforce that, a state government cannot.

That's why Qantas has started the push.  The complexity of bringing that into being universally, well, I could write a book about that.  Minefields
@capcom‍ -  I read the other day governments were thinking about forcing airlines to quarantine international staff from domestic staff, it seems unworkable. Especially if destinations bring in a vaccination / quarantine requirement for incoming airline staff as well as passenger arrivals.

How do you quarantine staff before departure, then require them to quarantine again on return, and still remain a viable organisation? You'd need to have staff on the job for weeks on end, on top of having them endure quarantine before and after a block of work, just to get a reasonable staff duty cycle!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 16, 2020, 01:35:15 pm
Most of our measures are unworkable.

The hardest part is that on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being a bad flu season, and 10 being the plague or the black death, this pandemic is looking like a solid 2.5.

Imagine it was worse??

We know better now, and it still could be seen to be worse, but IMHO, if it was going to be both ridiculously infectious, and deadly then I'd be all for imposing stricter measures but a year on, it looks as though this is a garden variety virus which for the most part, crisis averted.

It could get worse, but it wont be by much, unless we see it evolve into the beast I described.  We wont be so lucky on the next one.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 16, 2020, 03:19:01 pm
@capcom‍ -  I read the other day governments were thinking about forcing airlines to quarantine international staff from domestic staff, it seems unworkable. Especially if destinations bring in a vaccination / quarantine requirement for incoming airline staff as well as passenger arrivals.

How do you quarantine staff before departure, then require them to quarantine again on return, and still remain a viable organisation? You'd need to have staff on the job for weeks on end, on top of having them endure quarantine before and after a block of work, just to get a reasonable staff duty cycle!

LP, you simply can't.  Unless you want to go bankrupt.  You'd need to triple the operating crew at every port; multiply that by their network ports within Australia and it would kill the industry and any interest in operating into this country.

I can see where this is headed.  Integration of their updated covid clearance certificates within their passports, much like a visa.  That is, just by itself, a ludicrous administration overload.

Unworkable. And that's for starters
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 16, 2020, 04:47:03 pm
LP, you simply can't.  Unless you want to go bankrupt.  You'd need to triple the operating crew at every port; multiply that by their network ports within Australia and it would kill the industry and any interest in operating into this country.

I can see where this is headed.  Integration of their updated covid clearance certificates within their passports, much like a visa.  That is, just by itself, a ludicrous administration overload.

Unworkable. And that's for starters
Yes, to me it was obviously unworkable, but it has still been proposed.

Even if the cost wasn't an issue you'll have aircrew full of zombies after a heavy couple of weeks, the no shows will go through the roof, the rotating hours and variable workload do not make for a weeks on weeks off scenario like FIFO Miners. Politicians do not get it!

I knew an attendant who had been international at first for years and years, then switched to only domestic doing mostly east coast business flights. Quite awhile back there was some issue that caused a staff shortage on international flights, she had just spent a long few days doing domestic and was due for a long weekend when they asked her to go International. Apparently they can't just ask any attendant and she was only one of a few certified or qualified, etc.. She came straight off the heavy domestic week and did a stint of international between Aust, HK and Paris, and was shattered at the end of it, despite the great money she said never again, and she was very experienced and knew how to manage her way around the situation!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 16, 2020, 05:12:09 pm
How do you police that?

Will you trust all foreign authorities to give passengers the all clear and rubber stamp?

It appears a clear and growing risk is flight crews, and passengers are in intimate contact with them!
Always reasons why something can't be done, it can. It aint rocket science. These are unique and unprecedented circumstances that require unique and unprecedented thinking.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 18, 2020, 11:22:51 am
Asking travelling punters to voluntarily get tested ASAP and self-isolate, well good luck with that because it only takes one Karen to burn down the house!

Also, apparently the NSW news has stirred up a few bad memories, apparently there is some panic buying going down in some areas, presumably they think border closures will force stores will run out of stuff for Christmas so they are shopping early.

It's amazing how this stuff spreads, like a virus!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 18, 2020, 11:25:53 am
Always reasons why something can't be done, it can. It aint rocket science. These are unique and unprecedented circumstances that require unique and unprecedented thinking.
You have to operate on trust, trust that humans will do the right thing!

Unfortunately in this situation, I fear the vast bulk of people will do the right thing, while it only takes one nerd who wants badly to light the fuse just to see what happens!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 18, 2020, 11:57:24 am
You have to operate on trust, trust that humans will do the right thing!

Unfortunately in this situation, I fear the vast bulk of people will do the right thing, while it only takes one nerd who wants badly to light the fuse just to see what happens!
Trust no one. Always cater for the lowest common denominator.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 18, 2020, 01:01:30 pm
I've heard it all now, the stupidity of bureaucracy knows no bounds!

Brett Lee has been packed up and sent home from Adelaide Test commentary duties, due to the Sydney Northern Beaches COVID outbreak.

This makes perfect sense! ::)

Rather than isolate the itinerant COVID carrying NSW vagabond in situ as part of a contagious contingent, until tested all clear, SA sends them begrudgingly trudging through the public space of Adelaide's airport and pack them into a 40m long flying tin can with a few hundred innocent bystanders for the ++1hr flight home!

It's all good! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 18, 2020, 01:07:55 pm
I've heard it all now, the stupidity of bureaucracy knows no bounds!

Brett Lee has been packed up and sent home from Adelaide Test commentary duties, due to the Sydney Northern Beaches COVID outbreak.

This makes perfect sense! ::)

Rather than isolate the itinerant COVID carrying NSW vagabond in situ as part of a contagious contingent, until tested all clear, SA sends them begrudgingly trudging through the public space of Adelaide's airport and pack them into a 40m long flying tin can with a few hundred innocent bystanders for the ++1hr flight home!

It's all good! ;D
That sounds about right according to how we have dealt with things, although he would want to be home for Xmas...

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 18, 2020, 01:49:13 pm
That sounds about right according to how we have dealt with things, although he would want to be home for Xmas...
True.

FWIW, the 14 day bit is rather arbitrary if you are tested enough over a period of  4 or 5 day period. As far as I can tell it's really a number coming out of the need for self-isolation primarily in the absence of frequent testing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 18, 2020, 02:40:16 pm
Now GWS have cancelled the remaining training sessions so their interstate players can get he hell out of Sydney before the borders close, home for Christmas with that extra-little gift!

NSW, the state that state that keeps on giving!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 19, 2020, 10:27:50 am
I guess we’re going to hear scathing critiques from Scotty from Marketing, Greg Hunt & Josh Frydenberg about the NSW effort to contain Covid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 19, 2020, 01:02:21 pm
(https://i.giphy.com/media/11R5KYi6ZdP8Z2/giphy.webp)
Dictator Aunty Gladys, locking up the Northern Beaches, no hope of a latte or spritzer today!

Isn't it supposed to be Penrith or Parramatta that is full of the bad people?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 19, 2020, 01:17:16 pm
... and what was I saying about the screening of inbound flights LP and do it at the boarding port?  

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 19, 2020, 02:06:30 pm
... and what was I saying about the screening of inbound flights LP and do it at the boarding port? 
These are Australian's returning who refused to self-isolate as required, if anyone dies charge them with murder, they acted deliberately when they left their home!

Not sure any screening anywhere would have helped, but any screening would be better than this cluster of f#$k Dictator Gladys has offered us!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 19, 2020, 04:48:34 pm
30 new cases today.

Let's not get our knickers in a twist just yet.  This was always going to happen.  Through sheer dumb luck we've avoided this.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 19, 2020, 06:56:41 pm
... and what was I saying about the screening of inbound flights LP and do it at the boarding port?  

 
Thankyou, its not that farken hard.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 19, 2020, 06:58:21 pm
These are Australian's returning who refused to self-isolate as required, if anyone dies charge them with murder, they acted deliberately when they left their home!

Not sure any screening anywhere would have helped, but any screening would be better than this cluster of f#$k Dictator Gladys has offered us!
Kents, ship em back to the infested cesspool that they came from, dont care if they're aussies.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 19, 2020, 08:02:59 pm
I guess we’re going to hear scathing critiques from Scotty from Marketing, Greg Hunt & Josh Frydenberg about the NSW effort to contain Covid.

Hopefully they follow SA's lead and not ours.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 19, 2020, 09:29:32 pm
Let’s hope they can scale up the SA system to work in a State having 5 times the population and area. But if they don’t bother about population size, why not follow the lead of the Northern Territory? NT has only had 69 cases and has had no deaths. Oh, wait: isn’t the NT controlled by the ALP? Yep, forget that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on December 20, 2020, 07:41:03 am
Gladys really is the Teflon Premier; Ruby Princess, draconian border closures, bonking a corrupt politician, voting in parliament in breach of COVID regulations and now the Northern Beaches shemozzle.

Mind you, she does have that twat Barilaro as deputy, and it would be a full time job keeping an eye on his lunacy.

As for returning travellers, surely they should tested before being allowed to board the plane 🙄
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 20, 2020, 10:58:04 am
Shut the borders. It doesn’t look like NSW is willing to do what it takes to control an outbreak. Victoria might not be a shining example of how to avoid an outbreak but it’s an example par excellence of how to bring an outbreak under control.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 20, 2020, 11:51:04 am
@Mav‍  I tend to agree.

In fairness I'm not a big fan of Christmas or holidays, but I do appreciate it is a big deal for some people. However, what good is celebrating with Pop and Nan if they end up on a ventilator!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on December 20, 2020, 12:38:29 pm
Bloody hell, if this was VIC, Credlin and her buddies would be ripping into the state govt like there's no tomorrow!!

Speaking of Credlin and her buddies, I had to laugh recently when A. Bolt declared that he's had it with Melbourne and is going bush to live. Now when I heard this I thought of Bendigo or Ballarat or Gippsland or Western Districts or Kyneton... etc... nuh, relocating to the Mornington Peninsula. Yep, that's really roughing it, gettin' down and dirty in the scrub  ::)  ::)  :o  What a c0ckhead.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 20, 2020, 12:43:05 pm
I think with 800 plus deaths in Victoria we are in no position to be bagging NSW too much, Andrews has Gladys covered for stuff ups and lies. As DJ suggested I think returning travellers need the full  testing before they even get on a plane and more testing and quarantine  when they get back. Its people entering the country from overseas who will trigger outbreaks again and as GTC said I dont care if they are Aussies or not we need to be ultra cautious and depending on where they were returning from I'd be hesitant to allow them back in until it was under control in that country.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on December 20, 2020, 12:55:26 pm
I think with 800 plus deaths in Victoria we are in no position to be bagging NSW too much, Andrews has Gladys covered for stuff ups and lies. As DJ suggested I think returning travellers need the full  testing before they even get on a plane and more testing and quarantine  when they get back. Its people entering the country from overseas who will trigger outbreaks again and as GTC said I dont care if they are Aussies or not we need to be ultra cautious and depending on where they were returning from I'd be hesitant to allow them back in until it was under control in that country.

That monumental stuff up from VIC -- responding too late, then fckd up quarantining -- was for sure gigantic but we have learned our lesson and become a model. But this soft pedaling from NSW is a concern and borders should be slammed shut to keep it isolated until the coast ( ;D ) is clear... and relentless investigation is done to find out how it happened. But with all we've learned NSW does deserve no small measure of pointed questions, regardless of how huge VIC's stuff up was. And Dan may yet get the flick over those stuff ups... which will no doubt delight many.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 20, 2020, 01:05:19 pm
Yep. Scientists have discovered that octopuses learn by watching each other completing tasks. But apparently learning from others’ mistakes is beyond Gladys and her crew. Maybe they should elect an octopus as their Premier.

I can’t believe that they knew there was community transmission and they couldn’t find patient zero and yet they left pubs, restaurants and nightspots open. The expanding list of venues included in their alerts was simply farcical.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 20, 2020, 02:39:24 pm
The new strain of SARS-CoV-2 sweeping the UK is very alarming, my associates tell me the early signs are that with the new strain people are most contagious when they are asymptomatic, then they get sick in the following days or weeks!

That's shoot first ask questions later territory!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 20, 2020, 03:25:49 pm
Germany, France and Italy are having just as much trouble.  Their fast arriving winter spells very bad figures.  2021 won't change a thing.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on December 21, 2020, 01:31:04 pm
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8

Article from early October, but covers the issues well IMO. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on December 21, 2020, 01:32:28 pm
And one more :

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/masks-save-lives-heres-what-you-need-to-know-2020111921466
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 21, 2020, 01:50:59 pm
And one more :
I've never had a problem with the correct use of masks, but the vast majority of people ignore the correct part!

I see disposable masks, re-used over and over again, unwashed and unsterilised, stored in a pocket next to the wearers long suffering handkerchief which is also a very rarely rejuventated item! Then the mask comes on, goes off, sits in the cars centre console, drivers side-pocket, the wearers desk or flops around on the end of a hooked little finger like a set of prayer beads or failing in it's function as a gob closing elastic chin brace!

Then of course they pull the mask down, utter some pleasantry to a cashier, and strike all the buttons on the pin pad of the EFTPOS machine because dirty cash is banned!

Just assume those strangers are wearing a virtual mobile virus garden on their face, and you'll be much more cognisant of keeping your safe distance!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 21, 2020, 10:03:15 pm
I've never had a problem with the correct use of masks, but the vast majority of people ignore the correct part!

I see disposable masks, re-used over and over again, unwashed and unsterilised, stored in a pocket next to the wearers long suffering handkerchief which is also a very rarely rejuventated item! Then the mask comes on, goes off, sits in the cars centre console, drivers side-pocket, the wearers desk or flops around on the end of a hooked little finger like a set of prayer beads or failing in it's function as a gob closing elastic chin brace!

Then of course they pull the mask down, utter some pleasantry to a cashier, and strike all the buttons on the pin pad of the EFTPOS machine because dirty cash is banned!

Just assume those strangers are wearing a virtual mobile virus garden on their face, and you'll be much more cognisant of keeping your safe distance!
Yep..the disposables are good for 20-30mins and then should be changed like medical staff do. They build up with moisture and trap more bacteria than they prevent getting through. Everyone fiddles with them as well by hand transferring more rubbish onto the mask as people keep readjusting them. You see it everywhere that people hang them in cars off the mirror or on the dashboard to get the sun and dry out but they should be replaced.
I get it though why people dont as I was in Coles and they wanted $45 for a box of 50 x disposables, thats big money for someone struggling, for something that ends up in the bin..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 22, 2020, 10:30:59 am
I get it though why people dont as I was in Coles and they wanted $45 for a box of 50 x disposables, thats big money for someone struggling, for something that ends up in the bin..
Yep, crazy price gouging the Feds did stuff all about it.

The basic ones cost about 3c each to make, a machine knocks out about 10000 per hour, ~ 3 masks every second. They should/can be packaged and sold in bulk to end users for about 10c each and still make a tidy profit, that's a machine line earning $1000/hr and these things have been running 24x7 for nearly 6 months! For a single line at 65% duty cycle that's $2.85M/6mnths with a direct cost overhead of about $0.8M/6mnths. ( btw., The Feds sent in the army to offer free help/staffing to improve manufacturing productivity at local factories, the industry thinks they might be achieving or exceeding 85% duty cycle at an even lower unit cost. )

But the public buy them for about $1 a piece at best, most of that cash going to the middleman/retailer not the manufacturer, at the moment 100% of what we make locally is sold, so a single manufacturing line makes the middlemen/retailers about $25M in the same 6 Mnth period!

You can spray them with pure alcohol and then sterilise them in an oven, 85°C - 90°C for > 45mins, but that adds to the cost of the mask. It's only practical because the public are forced to pay a $1 each!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on December 22, 2020, 09:48:40 pm
https://aapsonline.org/mask-facts/

All this BS is just the AGW rubbish ramped up a few notches...same game plan.

PCR testing. Joke. Abject bloody joke. Not fit for purpose. Not even close.

But great for the politicians who can tweak things as they see fit.

https://swprs.org/the-trouble-with-pcr-tests/

Plenty of good reading on that site by the way.

For what other 'illness' have we ever tested symptom less people.....

Next, the fraud that is asymptomatic transmission.....

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on December 22, 2020, 10:15:01 pm
I'm not quite sure why you have this never-say-die obsession with debunking covid..........anyway, carry on.

The two articles I read on the The Swiss Policy Research site have no authors, and the site is run anonymously. It's not really a good start.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 23, 2020, 08:14:54 am
Plenty of good reading on that site by the way.
Nobody stated fiction can't be a good read! ;)

I'm not quite sure why you have this never-say-die obsession with debunking covid..........anyway, carry on.
 Yes, funny as hell.

It's like a monkey throwing crap, runs out of crap and goes and picks up the crap it's already thrown to throw it again to prove it's crap is infinite! ;D

The other day I saw a graph posted on FB, showed US COVID deaths relative to other causes of death like traffic or cancer as queues of people getting into heaven. Of course all the queues were full except the COVID queue that was empty, except to date there have been about 30000 road deaths in the US, versus about 320000 COVID deaths! Fancy trying to convince people by faking data that is already available publicly, it's like pointing at a red house and calling it black!

Geez their fecking morons! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on December 23, 2020, 08:22:40 am
Yep,  the rank hypocrisy from Gladys and her lot make me nauseous.

Same quarantine mistakes as Victoria.  Crickets.
Same failure to jump on it early and shut it down.
Why was Hume open to traffic when borders supposedly closed?
Same patchy response.
Complacent community compliance.
Won't enforce masks.
Bitch about border closures when the only sure fire method to prevent transmission is to not allow outsiders to bring it in.

Thanks Gladys.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 23, 2020, 08:25:58 am
Gladys' lack of action is making Nero the Fiddler look like a hyperactive obsessive compulsive!

She is sailing so close to tragedy for the chance of a political victory, but if it goes wrong it's going to screw the whole country. At least this time she has some Fed support, rather than washing their hands of things they are actually trying to help! But I doubt their heart is pure, they go the political leverage as well!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on December 23, 2020, 09:03:06 am
I'm not quite sure why you have this never-say-die obsession with debunking covid..........anyway, carry on.

The two articles I read on the The Swiss Policy Research site have no authors, and the site is run anonymously. It's not really a good start.

You can’t debunk something that’s fact  ::)

Meanwhile, the long term impacts of COVID are becoming clearer:

Quote
The first Australian study looking at the long-term impacts COVID-19 has published interim results.
It found 40 per cent of the people in the study had persistent symptoms two months after infection.
The most common lingering symptoms were fatigue, shortness of breath, coughing and tightness in the chest


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-23/long-term-effects-of-covid-study-in-medical-journal/13007498?utm_source=abc_news_web&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_content=link&utm_campaign=abc_news_web

Of course, conspiracy theorists will claim that this study can’t be trusted because it’s reported on the ABC  ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on December 23, 2020, 09:23:24 am
Interesting that the Feds knocked back Dan’s request for ADF personnel to help with border control because they might be needed somewhere else  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 23, 2020, 10:03:48 am
Interesting that the Feds knocked back Dan’s request for ADF personnel to help with border control because they might be needed somewhere else  ::)
It's very petty behaviour, like we offered last time and you didn't want it so now it's gone.

I don't understand the political roll of the dice in this instance, the win is trivial for many in the bigger longer picture, but the potential immediate loss is catastrophic for some!

Gladys may well celebrate single digit cases in the coming days, but only because Gladys has by negligence allowed to exportation of the infected to interstate quarantines, so the risk and cost is the burden of some other state. I do not get the media silence on this issue, maybe because most of it is headquartered in NSW!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on December 23, 2020, 10:30:28 am
@LP
The Feds are opposed to border closures - remember Scotty from marketing’s initial support for Clive Palmer’s court action against the WA Government.  It’s not good for business even if it may stop the spread of the virus.

Teflon Gladys indeed!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 23, 2020, 10:31:58 am
@LP
The Feds are opposed to border closures - remember Scotty from marketing’s initial support for Clive Palmer’s court action against the WA Government.  It’s not good for business even if it may stop the spread of the virus.

Teflon Gladys indeed!
Yes, that is just one perspective of involvement though, they are helping in NSW in a lot of other ways that they didn't in Vic due to politics.

But I agree, it's clear they choices they are making.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 23, 2020, 08:40:41 pm
Border closures aren't the answer. There needs to be a common, national approach. When there is an out break, put a ring around it. No one in or out of the area. Its not that darken hard.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 24, 2020, 07:07:32 am
I see today they have closed a loop with international flight crews must undergo mandatory 14 day quarantine in Melbourne. About  time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 24, 2020, 08:15:56 am
Precisely, just as I said last week.  Will cost each of the airlines a bomb with spare crews having to be based here to effect a quick a/c turnaround

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 24, 2020, 08:41:05 am
Ohh my, does it seem that Gladys is spreading the Christmas joy? :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 28, 2020, 03:03:39 pm
Interesting perspective, Gladys said it was OK to have a few visitors Christmas Day but NYD fireworks celebrations are taboo, is that a sign of the NSW Liberals being very heavily and too influenced by the hard Christian right? We can Happy Clap together but we mustn't be seen lighting a Penny Bunger in public! I'm not against the restrictions, but I struggle to understand how arbitrary they seem to be applied, it's like when in Vic the police allowed the BLM protests in the middle of the COVID lockdown!

Feel for Greg Norman, pretty fitness orientated but it seems he has been hit quite hard by COVID side-effects, hopefully not long term. On twitter some claim he may have been re-tweeting some of the sceptical/cynical new earther Anti-COVID posts a few months back, not now I gather! But I doubt that twitter claim is true anyway, more like Norman was debunking the loopy claims of people like Pete Evans and has been mis-quoted!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on December 28, 2020, 04:17:28 pm
@LP
The police charged the BLM organisers - not sure what happened though.

As for Norman, he is a booster for the now lame duck POTUS and praised his [mis]handling of the pandemic.  Nothing like a severe illness to provide a reality check!

I understand he’s back in hospital and is pretty crook.  I hope he gets over it but I can’t help thinking that it’s poetic justice.

Remember Malcolm Turnbull called Norman to get the POTUS’s phone number so he could congratulate him on his election win.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 30, 2020, 12:12:16 pm
Gladys is having a Barry Crocker it's like watching Dan Andrews on replay, the denial is palpable, on with the NYE Fireworks followed by the humidity packed SCG test. The spike is just another anomaly, and those unrelated cases are nothing to do with the Christmas Day breakouts, NYE roll on NSW people are good and always well behaved compared to the rest of us baddies! ::)

Craps anyone?
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3a/34/6b/3a346b536b6a6f5de274bbbff7908ec0.gif)
So does this mean Dan did a good job or that Gladys is a dickhead, it seems there is no middle ground option?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 30, 2020, 08:14:14 pm
Well 3 new cases in Melbourne. Let's see how the covid state handles this compared to SA and NSW.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 30, 2020, 08:31:56 pm
Well 3 new cases in Melbourne. Let's see how the covid state handles this compared to SA and NSW.
Interesting times, if we are getting cases in the middle of summer then it doesnt bode well for the cooler months.
Wonder if the vaccine might make an earlier appearance than expected given these cases will probably lead to more and NSW are already looking at tighter restrictions. Not sure what Gladys is doing allowing the cricket to proceed either.
I can see the Qld premier locking up the state again...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 30, 2020, 08:43:59 pm
NO more repatriations ... from anywhere
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 30, 2020, 09:38:11 pm
The 3 people have been all over the place. Oakleigh, Mentone, Glen Waverley, Fountain Gate Shops on boxing day!!

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 30, 2020, 10:15:14 pm
Granted, but doesn't look good in a wider context
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 31, 2020, 06:25:24 am
The 3 people have been all over the place. Oakleigh, Mentone, Glen Waverley, Fountain Gate Shops on boxing day!!


Are these people linked to the NSW Northern Beaches outbreak?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 31, 2020, 06:31:32 am
Yep.  Idiots
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 31, 2020, 06:36:24 am
Yep.  Idiots
I just read about the imbecile 57 year old woman, from the Northern Beaches in NSW, who sped through a check point in East Gippsland on route to SA after being refused entry. Chase was called off, she was arrested later in the day after using road spikes in Nhill. What kind of spastic does that? Its akin to an act of terrorism, as for endangering the the lives of officers at the checkpoint, she needs to do jail time.

I also saw a story yesterday about the woman who escaped quarantine, she is a looney tune claiming its all 5G, not a virus blah blah blah. She needs to be put into an asylum.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 31, 2020, 07:31:54 am
I'm surprised at the number of females I've seen on the news recently breaking the law as if it supposedly gives them some impunity.  Who in the hell do they think they are?  Crush her car.  One strike, you're out.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 31, 2020, 08:59:28 am
I just got back from Adelaide a couple of days ago and they have QR code readers in every shop.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on December 31, 2020, 09:12:12 am
Yep.  Idiots

A bit harsh Thry.  It seems that they may have been unknowingly in contact with a carrier or carriers from the Northern Beaches.  That carrier (or carriers) might be an idiot but the three women probably aren’t at fault.

It seems that the three women are known to each other and that may narrow the search for the Northern Beaches contact.  We will learn more from the Government presser.

Meanwhile, local Northern Beaches residents have called out Tony Abbott for entering the red zone with a group of MAMILs.  I wonder if he’ll be sanctioned  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 31, 2020, 11:01:53 am
... and here we go again.  Victoria impose restrictions from 1700 today.

No end to this bu.....t

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on December 31, 2020, 11:25:54 am
This is an idiot:

Quote
Police have arrested a woman from a NSW red zone who allegedly tried to evade police at a COVID-19 checkpoint in East Gippsland on Wednesday morning.

The 57-year-old woman allegedly sped through the Chandlers Creek checkpoint at 4:00am in a station wagon.

In a statement, Victoria Police said officers initially chased the woman but stopped because of the risk to the community.

She was spotted by an off-duty police offer near Nhill at 5:00pm, allegedly on her way to South Australia.

Police said officers used a tyre deflation device on the Western Highway to stop the woman's car and she was arrested without incident.

The woman was taken to a quarantine hotel by DHHS and will be interviewed after her 14-day quarantine ends.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 31, 2020, 11:52:43 am
I just got back from Adelaide a couple of days ago and they have QR code readers in every shop.
 There everywhere near me, shops, pubs, gyms, everywhere has them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 31, 2020, 01:17:56 pm
There everywhere near me, shops, pubs, gyms, everywhere has them.
Been down Peninsula since Boxing Day, virtually nada.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 31, 2020, 01:24:11 pm
And people who travelled to NSW being told to come home? Fark that, stay there for 14 days in quarantine and then test negative before you come back. These people rolled the dice now pay, I'm not paying for you this time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 31, 2020, 01:45:34 pm
Id be preparing for harder restrictions and buying a box of masks while you can still get them......
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 31, 2020, 02:44:03 pm
There everywhere near me, shops, pubs, gyms, everywhere has them.

They're all linked in SA. Once I scanned in the first place my details were saved for everywhere I go. Not the case here.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 31, 2020, 03:38:02 pm
A bit harsh Thry.  It seems that they may have been unknowingly in contact with a carrier or carriers from the Northern Beaches.  That carrier (or carriers) might be an idiot but the three women probably aren’t at fault.

It seems that the three women are known to each other and that may narrow the search for the Northern Beaches contact.  We will learn more from the Government presser.

Meanwhile, local Northern Beaches residents have called out Tony Abbott for entering the red zone with a group of MAMILs.  I wonder if he’ll be sanctioned  ::)

Harsh but fair.

This is why our government is imposing restrictions.  The minute they called pandemic I started thinking from the following perspective.

Just because I think all is ok, and I am not infected, doesn't mean everything is actually ok and we are not infected.

The northern beaches outbreak was known before Christmas.

This sounds more like knowing the risks, and thinking "she'll be right".

You want to know what I have not done willy nilly for the last 12 months?  Visited people day in day out.  I didn't go from a coffee shop in glen Waverley, to shops in fountain gate, and then to oakleigh for dinner either.

.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on December 31, 2020, 05:07:53 pm
Masks today,  lock down in what,  a week?

Thanks Gladys,  useless ****** ******.

DJC,  the woman who did the runner through the road block, would the use of deadly force to stop her be legally justified?    If it gets away again in Vic could they charge her with manslaughter or even attempted murder,  because the potential of her actions is that she is putting people at risk.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 31, 2020, 08:16:45 pm
The rumour going around is that the super-spreader is a well-to-do yachtee, who fled NSW Northern Beaches to attend the Melb-Hobart after it looked highly likely the Syd-Hobart was being banned. They along with others friends apparently wined and dined around the Melb SE suburbs for more than a week, starting at Brighton Yacht Club!

There is an anomalous case from Hallam who is apparently a staff member at one of the venues!

Looks like they've well and truly "Done all of Brighton" this time!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on January 01, 2021, 10:04:09 am
The rumour going around is that the super-spreader is a well-to-do yachtee, who fled NSW Northern Beaches to attend the Melb-Hobart after it looked highly likely the Syd-Hobart was being banned. They along with others friends apparently wined and dined around the Melb SE suburbs for more than a week, starting at Brighton Yacht Club!

There is an anomalous case from Hallam who is apparently a staff member at one of the venues!

Looks like they've well and truly "Done all of Brighton" this time!

The Melbourne to Hobart race was cancelled months ago.  The Melbourne to Devonport race was held with 22 yachts but I’m pretty sure that they didn’t accept late entries.  Of course, that doesn’t mean that the source of the outbreak isn’t a boat person who fled Gladys’s half-arsked COVID response and sought succour at the Brighton Yacht Club.

I read that a maxi-yacht in FNQ had COVID cases on board and the crew was refusing to co-operate with authorities.  I was hoping that the Feds would send a gunboat to sink it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 01, 2021, 12:11:16 pm
The Melbourne to Hobart race was cancelled months ago.  The Melbourne to Devonport race was held with 22 yachts but I’m pretty sure that they didn’t accept late entries.
Fair enough, not my area of expertise, but a entered boat has a crew and some have support crews as well, some of those crews even have families it seems!

PS; You can add The National Golf club to the list of visited venues!
I'm starting to feel sorry for this person.
Apparently they are doing it real tough, could only hire a BMW over the holiday period there were no Lexus left! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Blues15 on January 01, 2021, 08:44:36 pm
I'm surprised at the number of females I've seen on the news recently breaking the law as if it supposedly gives them some impunity.  Who in the hell do they think they are?  Crush her car.  One strike, you're out.

I don’t think this is a female thing 😆 I hear and see a lot of men being little bitches because they have to wear a mask or adhere by the covid rules and coming up with crazy conspiracies. In fact, I’ve only ever seen men not where mask only recently when I am at the shops. Just cause Karen from Brighton made the news and bob didn’t doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 01, 2021, 09:16:19 pm
HUGE difference in her actions.  Could easily have taken a life. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Blues15 on January 01, 2021, 09:20:18 pm
HUGE difference in her actions.  Could easily have taken a life. 

I mean men do things all the time that could and do take peoples lives including driving like idiots but let’s not
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 01, 2021, 10:22:04 pm
Yep
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 02, 2021, 04:45:19 pm
And the two stupid Kents that ran from police at the airport? Fine the fark out of them and make them quarantine courtesy of HRH at Hotel de Barwon.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on January 02, 2021, 11:24:51 pm
And the two stupid Kents that ran from police at the airport? Fine the fark out of them and make them quarantine courtesy of HRH at Hotel de Barwon.

I reckon they should locked in the stocks and punters encouraged to throw rotten fruit, eggs, horse sh1t, etc at them, from an appropriate distance of course  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 12, 2021, 10:58:01 am
I realise she was elderly, and that complicates things, but Richard Branson's mother dying of COVID is a prime example of the futility of any argument or war waged by COVID conspiracists and COVID deniers against the use of vaccines and other prophylactic measures like border closures, masks and social distancing.

No money in the world, no treatment in the world, can guarantee your safety from an infection in the same way that preventing it in the first place does!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 16, 2021, 01:20:37 pm
A charter plane from LA to Melbourne has 2 tennis players who have covid. What in the world are we doing?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on January 16, 2021, 02:42:52 pm
A charter plane from LA to Melbourne has 2 tennis players who have covid. What in the world are we doing?

Being totally inconsistent and disingenuous afaic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on January 16, 2021, 03:16:27 pm
Apparently, one is a member of the flight crew and the other is a hanger on.  Hard quarantine for all 60 people on the flight - good preparation for a tennis tournament  ::)

The Aussie Open probably should have been postponed or cancelled.  Any more positive test results and I suspect that it will scrapped.

On a more positive note, we've had less deaths than usual.  I guess that shows the benefits of good hygiene and staying home  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on January 17, 2021, 08:10:21 pm
It seems that some tennis players aren’t happy with the quarantine arrangements and aren’t complying.

They should pull their heads in and abide by the rules or take the next available flight.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 17, 2021, 10:45:31 pm
Pi55 off the lot.  >:D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on January 18, 2021, 07:28:50 am
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/victoria-s-economic-recovery-to-outstrip-all-other-states-as-nation-bounces-back-20210115-p56ufo.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 18, 2021, 08:18:32 am
@PaulP

Nice link Paul, but didn't you know, lockdown is doom and gloom?

The fate of the nation rests with the Feds, no matter how much responsibility they shun!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on January 18, 2021, 09:18:06 am
It seems that some tennis players aren’t happy with the quarantine arrangements and aren’t complying.

They should pull their heads in and abide by the rules or take the next available flight.

Interesting contrast in attitudes between 'team players' of the AFL and their overwhelmingly positive/constructive attitude to quarantine (there were only a few knobs) and the attitude of those in an 'individual' sport. And our players had it for months.

Interview with Pat Cash revealed that Tennis Australia had gone to extraordinary lengths to inform all tennis players of all scenarios in the event of a C-19 positive and resultant quarantining. And the need for quarantining in general.

Any player, manager, support staff person etc. who continues to complain about the strict measures in place to protect them and OUR community can FO. I'd be happy to kick in a fiver to help out with travel out of the country... along with a size 9 boot to the dot.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on January 18, 2021, 09:19:41 am
 
@PaulP

Nice link Paul, but didn't you know, lockdown is doom and gloom?

The fate of the nation rests with the Feds, no matter how much responsibility they shun!

I wonder how Josh will spin this  :-\
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 19, 2021, 10:06:39 am
If accurate this is a bit disturbing.

Coronavirus UK: COVID's long-term damage sending one in three patients back to hospital within five months (theage.com.au) (https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/one-in-three-covid-patients-in-uk-readmitted-within-five-months-20210118-p56v33.html)
(https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/one-in-three-covid-patients-in-uk-readmitted-within-five-months-20210118-p56v33.html)
As I read it, functionally without further interventions it means long term deaths from COVID will double after a sufficient period of time. That is 30% of Long COVID cases returned to hospital within a year, and 1 in 10 of those perished!

Long COVID indeed! :o

Sort of makes a mockery of economic rationalist arguments, the full price of not acting is going to skyrocket, Dan might well be a dictator but he's done us a mighty favour it seems!

Piss on the anti-maskers and COVID deniers at every opportunity, they are killing people.

FMD what has Trump done! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 19, 2021, 11:02:43 am
If accurate this is a bit disturbing.

Coronavirus UK: COVID's long-term damage sending one in three patients back to hospital within five months (theage.com.au) (https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/one-in-three-covid-patients-in-uk-readmitted-within-five-months-20210118-p56v33.html)
(https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/one-in-three-covid-patients-in-uk-readmitted-within-five-months-20210118-p56v33.html)
As I read it, functionally without further interventions it means long term deaths from COVID will double after a sufficient period of time. That is 30% of Long COVID cases returned to hospital within a year, and 1 in 10 of those perished!

Long COVID indeed! :o

Sort of makes a mockery of economic rationalist arguments, the full price of not acting is going to skyrocket, Dan might well be a dictator but he's done us a mighty favour it seems!

Piss on the anti-maskers and COVID deniers at every opportunity, they are killing people.

FMD what has Trump done! :o

one of this issues with this whole argument is that its very all or nothing.

We cannot continue to shut everything down and live a paralysed life, hiding from life because it might hospitalise people.

Sure, take the preventative measures where practical if practical.

Where its not practical, or practicable though the fix seems to be a worse outcome in some cases.  The lady who killed herself and her 3 kids, is just the beginning.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 19, 2021, 11:27:34 am
Why do we not blame the real cause ... China and Wuhan.  They are the creeping cancer
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 19, 2021, 11:31:16 am
Why do we not blame the real cause ... China and Wuhan.  They are the creeping cancer
PC
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on January 19, 2021, 07:10:45 pm
Careful,  you'll be tagged with the R word.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 19, 2021, 09:17:16 pm
Why do we not blame the real cause ... China and Wuhan.  They are the creeping cancer
Couldnt agree more, origins of Covid are still unknown and we still have rumours of it being started via a Laboratory.
The Chinese are Trump like in denials and ridiculous counter claims it didnt start in China but in the USA etc.
Bully boys economically and have the world health organisation by the Biggie smalls, pity the lesser well off countries accepting their vaccine offerings too..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 20, 2021, 08:27:24 am
I notice the corporate psychopaths want everyone back in the office ASAP.

The motivation isn't that people working from home are less productive, the problem is the corporate psychopath is inherently paranoid and the poor bastards are running themselves into the ground trying to keep watch over the dispersed staff. They want them back in the pig pen so they can stroll around and laud over them in the old bullying ways! Staff working from home, out of the eyeline, is the paranoid psychopaths worst nightmare!

But there is a problem for the psychopath, it turns out not running the office block, not having a tower of power, is more profitable for the crew in the big house. Once the IT crews solved the security and paranoia issues that good corporate governance required, working from home was a no brainer. Operating costs have plummeted, there has been no real hit on productivity, and the Board Executives are already eyeing bigger bonusses, ........................... the only real loser is the psychopath!

Even worse, it's good for the environment, CO2 emissions have plummeted, there is less traffic, staff having acclimatised are less stressed, and the bulk of the bad eggs have left the building(quit or sacked) because taking work home was their worst nightmare given they spend all day working harder at getting out of it than actually doing anything!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on January 20, 2021, 08:37:01 am
Couldnt agree more, origins of Covid are still unknown and we still have rumours of it being started via a Laboratory.
The Chinese are Trump like in denials and ridiculous counter claims it didnt start in China but in the USA etc.
Bully boys economically and have the world health organisation by the Biggie smalls, pity the lesser well off countries accepting their vaccine offerings too..

EB, I read somewhere that there was much funding and cooperation from the West, including Australia btw, for research in China  into viruses including Covid. Maybe we have ourselves to blame, at least partly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 20, 2021, 09:29:23 am
.... interesting LP.  The power savings must have been extraordinary.  Puts those extinction morons out of a "job", house sales with an integrated connected office escalate. 

But just as many blessings in that as there are curses.  Transurban profits plummet.  So it goes
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 20, 2021, 09:40:55 am
I notice the corporate psychopaths want everyone back in the office ASAP.

The motivation isn't that people working from home are less productive, the problem is the corporate psychopath is inherently paranoid and the poor bastards are running themselves into the ground trying to keep watch over the dispersed staff. They want them back in the pig pen so they can stroll around and laud over them in the old bullying ways! Staff working from home, out of the eyeline, is the paranoid psychopaths worst nightmare!

But there is a problem for the psychopath, it turns out not running the office block, not having a tower of power, is more profitable for the crew in the big house. Once the IT crews solved the security and paranoia issues that good corporate governance required, working from home was a no brainer. Operating costs have plummeted, there has been no real hit on productivity, and the Board Executives are already eyeing bigger bonusses, ........................... the only real loser is the psychopath!

Even worse, it's good for the environment, CO2 emissions have plummeted, there is less traffic, staff having acclimatised are less stressed, and the bulk of the bad eggs have left the building(quit or sacked) because taking work home was their worst nightmare given they spend all day working harder at getting out of it than actually doing anything!

I know many people who have hated working from home, and are not able to do their job properly and are therefore relying on others to enable working from home.

Similarly I know many that have thrived.

I dont think you can state with confidence that working from home has been good for everyone.  It will change as the kids go to school again, but I'd wager that productivity was not maintained from all people.  There are possibly ways to see resources who failed at working from home effectively.  they wouldnt have done the job all that well I am confident.  Some have even relied heavily on onsite resources to get the job done, and have spent more time distracting onsite staff with pointless zoom and webex meetings just to fill in the day.  Lots of talk, no action.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 20, 2021, 11:23:21 am
Some have even relied heavily on onsite resources to get the job done, and have spent more time distracting onsite staff with pointless zoom and webex meetings just to fill in the day.  Lots of talk, no action.
I agree there is a mix of success and failure, but those I've talked with who have complained about remote working frequently have a common theme of excessive meetings and excessive reporting, that reeks of some psychopath interrupting people frequently to make sure they are working and wants hard proof.

So I'd wager if it exists there is a direct relationship between a drop in productivity from remote working and this sporadic increase in excessive monitoring, a lot of it must be from those psychopaths trying to keep control, but that pattern of behaviour would be exposed by the digital records if anyone cares to look for it! So I suppose benefits or detriments are not global.

The digital footprint of meetings and demands is forensic proof of digital harassment and bullying, it must be a psychopaths nightmare, because the modus operandi is normally to blame others for blunders, and they are littering the cloud with a trail of breadcrumbs that leads back to them!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on January 20, 2021, 12:39:02 pm
Another of those situation where there is more AND rather than either/or.

The Spotted One (LP) is 100% correct re the corporate sociopath's pathological need for control (with a trust vacuum) and hence will hate people working from home. They'll claim concerns about productivity, but really it is all about control & fear. And the corporate sociopath is much more prevalent than many might believe... conservative research shows at least 20%.

In a nation where the ratio of introvert to extrovert is 60% introvert/40% extrovert you'll find that the introverts (generally speaking) will be more productive working from home, at least most of the time. Whereas the extroverts need the social interaction that the 'office' provides. Many extroverts could have gone nuts during hard lock-down and would have needed loads of Zoom meetings, etc., to satisfy their need for interaction.

As some of you know I have a family member who is a senior manager in a major organization and I read to her the Spotted One's comments re sociopaths (psychopaths)... she nodded agreement, almost enthusiastically!

In an ideal world more folks will have the choice to work from home/office and/or a % of sharing their time between both. I would expect that in 'healthy' workplaces (sociopath free zone) there will be negotiated more 'work from home' days for those who feel they are more productive working from home, and it suits the workplace. Mrs Baggers is negotiating 3 days from home, 2 from the office and there is good support for this... and she aint Robinson Crusoe.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 20, 2021, 03:23:50 pm
Some may have already read/heard the stats on CV, but supposedly only 2% of the people that get it, die. Most of them are old.
If you are under the age of 50 and get CV, you have a 0.2% chance of death......and i'm tipping most of that 0.2% are either already sick and/or are children/infants.

If you are relatively fit and healthy, you are fine.

"Only" 2%? Mostly Old? Phew, thats ok then. ::)
Seriously Krudd, sometimes you have no filter what so ever.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 20, 2021, 05:04:37 pm
EB, I read somewhere that there was much funding and cooperation from the West, including Australia btw, for research in China  into viruses including Covid. Maybe we have ourselves to blame, at least partly.
I read that initially Cookie when Covid appeared, we were doing some lab work in Geelong related to Chinese research. We pay everywhere to keep the red/northern hordes at bay and even donate to terrorist friendly countries like Indonesia so they wont invade us. We talk tough standing next to the USA meanwhile Twiggy Forrest is entertaining the same Chinese we are talking tough too and making a fortune out of our dirt(Fortescue) and collecting squillions in franking credits.
Its just contradictions everywhere and you really cant trust anyone when the money gets big....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 20, 2021, 05:15:11 pm
Mrs Baggers is negotiating 3 days from home, 2 from the office and there is good support for this... and she aint Robinson Crusoe.
@Baggers  As the Mandalorian states, I suspect for a good percentage of staff "This is the way!"

Through my R&D work I get to talk with a lot of the top end of town, State & Fed politicians and bureaucrats, legal eagles mostly in IP and Corporate Law, Execs and Tech Investors, all of them without exception do not expect the full workforce to return to the big office blocks within the next two or three years, maybe ever, they have even warned tenants not to expect more than about 40% of staff compared to pre-COVID for at least the next 18 months. (Most of the food, beverage and service facilities are sub-leased in the CBD office blocks, these people get a surprising amount of inside knowledge from the favourite customer.) Even more surprising, even when the office block in not in the CBD it won't be like it was before, they fully intend to pick the eyes out of the best of both worlds!

Obviously there will be industries that cannot work like this, health, manufacturing, etc., etc.. But if you count beans you can count them anywhere, banking is just a button press, invoices and delivery dockets the same, if you consult finances or shift shares you can do it from your hammock, and it's surprising how many people do this type of work. Good luck to them I say, unfortunately I can't join in but I get other benefits like freeways full of empty space!

There will be a price, international travel is probably never going to be cheap or simple ever again, big events like trade expos and conferences are probably going the way of dinosaurs, business junkets are kiboshed for ever, I'll probably never sit face to face with some of best international friends ever again enjoying one of their local beverages! Sinking a pint over Zoom just ain't the same!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 20, 2021, 05:34:40 pm
"Only" 2%? Mostly Old? Phew, thats ok then. ::)
Seriously Krudd, sometimes you have no filter what so ever.

Why have you gone back 10 months to bring back this post??
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 20, 2021, 05:58:38 pm
Why have you gone back 10 months to bring back this post??
Doh! Coz Im a DH and clicked on the wrong page! Apologies
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 20, 2021, 06:26:07 pm
I’m just waiting for the Victorian opposition to call for thousands of foreign fruit pickers to be allowed into the State to help out farmers. I heard a farmers’ spokesman advocating that. He said other States are doing this so there should be no problem doing it here. Well ... just 1 problem. Other States are relying on private security to manage quarantine. Given that police are now supervising quarantine hotels, there’s a maximum capacity of 200 or so. As the Liberals were in the vanguard of slamming the Victorian Government for giving this sensitive responsibility to private security, it’ll be hard for them to argue private security is the answer. But as politicians are no strangers to hypocrisy, I’m sure they’ll make the argument without embarrassment.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 26, 2021, 12:10:03 pm
No social distancing at the mass protest in the city today.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 26, 2021, 12:33:34 pm
China have decided CoVid came from labs at Fort Detrick in the USA and not Wuhan live markets, meanwhile Brazil have suggested the Chinese vaccine isnt as effective as promised which is shorthand for saying its about as effective as sucking a butter menthol.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 26, 2021, 03:48:41 pm
And again, the culprit for this global misery? 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 26, 2021, 07:02:42 pm
China have decided CoVid came from labs at Fort Detrick in the USA and not Wuhan live markets, meanwhile Brazil have suggested the Chinese vaccine isnt as effective as promised which is shorthand for saying its about as effective as sucking a butter menthol.
I have lost all respect for the Chinese, they are taking the piss and treating us and the world like fools.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on January 26, 2021, 07:12:58 pm
China have decided CoVid came from labs at Fort Detrick in the USA and not Wuhan live markets, meanwhile Brazil have suggested the Chinese vaccine isnt as effective as promised which is shorthand for saying its about as effective as sucking a butter menthol.

I read a while back that covid research was being done in US  facilities up until a few years ago,  I think during Obama's time. He cut the funding and stopped it and it was transferred to China, where it continued with US institutional support as well as from other sources including Australia. Chinese scientists have been involved from the earliest stages both in the US and other places.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 26, 2021, 08:23:38 pm
I read a while back that covid research was being done in US  facilities up until a few years ago,  I think during Obama's time. He cut the funding and stopped it and it was transferred to China, where it continued with US institutional support as well as from other sources including Australia. Chinese scientists have been involved from the earliest stages both in the US and other places.
That would be SARS and MERS research I presume?

SARS-CoV-2 is a novel virus, new to science in 2020.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 26, 2021, 11:01:51 pm
I read a while back that covid research was being done in US  facilities up until a few years ago,  I think during Obama's time. He cut the funding and stopped it and it was transferred to China, where it continued with US institutional support as well as from other sources including Australia. Chinese scientists have been involved from the earliest stages both in the US and other places.
Cookie, I'm inclined to more support the theory that Covid19 was developed by the Chinese Government for military purposes and  some how by accident found its way out of the laboratory rather than the live market theory.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on January 27, 2021, 12:11:22 am
And, for a considered assessment:

Quote
Its closest relative in nature is the RaTG13 virus, which was discovered in horseshoe bats in southwest China’s Yunnan province. The 96.2% genetic match between the two makes it highly likely that COVID-19 also originated in the bat colonies of China’s southwest border regions.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-who-china-factbox-idUSKBN29O08P
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on January 27, 2021, 12:27:34 am
Cookie, I'm inclined to more support the theory that Covid19 was developed by the Chinese Government for military purposes and  some how by accident found its way out of the laboratory rather than the live market theory.

I underwent NBC warfare training when I was a young bloke and I can’t really see how COVID could be effective for military purposes.  Yes, it would over-extend ICUs, but it would do so indiscriminately and only as long as as there wasn’t a vaccine.

There are so many more effective ways to gain a military advantage that it’s hard to see why anyone would bother trying to manipulate a virus.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on January 27, 2021, 07:53:58 am
Cookie, I'm inclined to more support the theory that Covid19 was developed by the Chinese Government for military purposes and  some how by accident found its way out of the laboratory rather than the live market theory.

I tend toward that theory too EB but the Chinese probably obtained much intellectual property and input for their research and development from western institutions  according to some of the sources I read a while ago. I  will try and find it out.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 27, 2021, 08:28:39 am
And, for a considered assessment:
Yes, in the context that 96.2% sounds small but in evolutionary terms it is hugely different, more difference than exists between a human and a cheetah,

The main driver is that at some recent time SARS-CoV-2 it became zoonotic, and the most likely mechanism is wet markets as has been the case with any number of recent novel virus. They detect many but of course most are not harmful, it's the right combination of features that turn them deadly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 27, 2021, 10:19:46 am
^^

So no chance someone identified the virus and then tried to weaponise it and stuffed up?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 27, 2021, 12:23:03 pm
I underwent NBC warfare training when I was a young bloke and I can’t really see how COVID could be effective for military purposes.  Yes, it would over-extend ICUs, but it would do so indiscriminately and only as long as as there wasn’t a vaccine.

There are so many more effective ways to gain a military advantage that it’s hard to see why anyone would bother trying to manipulate a virus.
CoVid has made a nice mess of the USA, the USA has 5 times the military capabilities of China, more money and the Chinese need an edge.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 27, 2021, 12:26:13 pm
^^
So no chance someone identified the virus and then tried to weaponise it and stuffed up?
Of course it's possible, but you have to play the percentages to be taken seriously, it's far more likely or perhaps even inevitable given it's happened before that you'd end up with a disease like this naturally than engineered and released by an accident.

China's primary guilt in this issue is wilful negligence, we shouldn't let them avoid that responsibility by focussing on a spy fantasy. Xi wants western media to spend all it's time on conspiracy theories while they continue to build artificial islands in the sea and claim foreign soils as their own.

Generally the cloak and dagger stuff is way over-stated, Occam's razor should be applied.

I underwent NBC warfare training when I was a young bloke and I can’t really see how COVID could be effective for military purposes.  Yes, it would over-extend ICUs, but it would do so indiscriminately and only as long as as there wasn’t a vaccine.

There are so many more effective ways to gain a military advantage that it’s hard to see why anyone would bother trying to manipulate a virus.
Yes, a weapon is next to useless if when you pull the trigger it's a 50/50 outcome on it exploding in your face! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 27, 2021, 12:59:40 pm
Of course it's possible, but you have to play the percentages to be taken seriously, it's far more likely or perhaps even inevitable given it's happened before that you'd end up with a disease like this naturally than engineered and released by an accident.

China's primary guilt in this issue is wilful negligence, we shouldn't let them avoid that responsibility by focussing on a spy fantasy. Xi wants western media to spend all it's time on conspiracy theories while they continue to build artificial islands in the sea and claim foreign soils as their own.

Generally the cloak and dagger stuff is way over-stated, Occam's razor should be applied.
Yes, a weapon is next to useless if when you pull the trigger it's a 50/50 outcome on it exploding in your face! ;D
I'd suggest the Chinese and their Russian neighbors have quite a few items exploding in their face on a regular basis given their
attitudes to health, safety and quality control.
Their Covid vaccine is also questionable, think they have been giving it away to minor or poorer nations...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 27, 2021, 01:07:34 pm
Their Covid vaccine is also questionable, think they have been giving it away to minor or poorer nations...
Doubt that is true, both those nations use access to stuff like that as leverage to win commercial contracts, there will be a hook that probably adds a new wing to Putin's Palace and a bonus to Xi's retirement fund!

I've always surprised by the west's obsession with Putin and Xi, in particular the western media's hell bent focus on bringing them to account. Putin and Xi are not the problem, they are the elite of the elite, the real problem is that the illiterate downtrodden majority in those countries treat blokes like that as demigods. Raise the literacy and expose the fraud to the downtrodden and they will rise up and rattle the cages of those trouble makers, leaving them too busy dealing with their backyard to bother anybody.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 27, 2021, 05:36:50 pm
^^

So no chance someone identified the virus and then tried to weaponise it and stuffed up?


I posted a link last year with an interview from a guy who literally wrote the book about how a virus could do the damage that has been caused and where it would most likely come from....and it was China.

This book was out like 10 years ago or something.

Sure, military could have done something, but reading the tea leaves, this was always going to occur naturally.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 27, 2021, 06:25:49 pm
Doubt that is true, both those nations use access to stuff like that as leverage to win commercial contracts, there will be a hook that probably adds a new wing to Putin's Palace and a bonus to Xi's retirement fund!

I've always surprised by the west's obsession with Putin and Xi, in particular the western media's hell bent focus on bringing them to account. Putin and Xi are not the problem, they are the elite of the elite, the real problem is that the illiterate downtrodden majority in those countries treat blokes like that as demigods. Raise the literacy and expose the fraud to the downtrodden and they will rise up and rattle the cages of those trouble makers, leaving them too busy dealing with their backyard to bother anybody.
Not correct, Brazil have already indicated the Chinese vaccine isnt effective as the Chinese claims, Russians are not illiterate, in fact their literacy rate is about 99% and are close to No 1 in the world with the highest level of tertiary education. Forget about Olga working in the fields all day and knocking out tank parts in the evening for a few rubels and bowl of beetroot soup.
China have a literacy rate of around 96%...
Brazil are claiming the Chinese vaccine they received is only 50% effective, its old technology and the Chinese are knocking it out in big numbers because its easy to make and store. Its been described in an analogy as a Model T Ford vaccine vs the Moderna and Pfizer offerings which were described as Tesla's in comparison.....
Both China and Russia are top 5 for military spending, thats how they rule, by force, good luck rattling cages in either country as those missing Doctors in Wuhan can tell you....



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on January 27, 2021, 06:40:08 pm
Not correct, Brazil have already indicated the Chinese vaccine isnt effective as the Chinese claims, Russians are not illiterate, in fact their literacy rate is about 99% and are close to No 1 in the world with the highest level of tertiary education. Forget about Olga working in the fields in the day and knocking out tank parts in the evening for a few rubels and bowl of beetroot soup.
China have a literacy rate of around 96%...
Brazil are claiming the Chinese vaccine they received is only 50% effective, its old technology and the Chinese are knocking it out in big numbers because its easy to make and store.
Its been described in an analogy as a Model T Ford vaccine vs the Moderna and Pfizer offerings which were described as Tesla's in comparison.....

So, China developed a biological weapon for which they have a vaccine that is only 50% effective.  Western nations have vaccines that are at least 90% effective ... That went well!  :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 27, 2021, 07:04:52 pm
So, China developed a biological weapon for which they have a vaccine that is only 50% effective.  Western nations have vaccines that are at least 90% effective ... That went well!  :o
Mass produced....poor quality....thats so Chinese.....I guess you will be passing on the Pfizer and getting that Chinese jab instead?😜😊 I dont think so...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on January 27, 2021, 08:50:41 pm
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55212787

Dated 14th January.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 27, 2021, 09:42:46 pm
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55212787

Dated 14th January.
Yeah nah thanks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 27, 2021, 11:45:23 pm
Not correct, Brazil have already indicated the Chinese vaccine isnt effective as the Chinese claims, Russians are not illiterate, in fact their literacy rate is about 99% and are close to No 1 in the world with the highest level of tertiary education. Forget about Olga working in the fields all day and knocking out tank parts in the evening for a few rubels and bowl of beetroot soup.
China have a literacy rate of around 96%...
Brazil are claiming the Chinese vaccine they received is only 50% effective, its old technology and the Chinese are knocking it out in big numbers because its easy to make and store. Its been described in an analogy as a Model T Ford vaccine vs the Moderna and Pfizer offerings which were described as Tesla's in comparison.....
Both China and Russia are top 5 for military spending, thats how they rule, by force, good luck rattling cages in either country as those missing Doctors in Wuhan can tell you....
My reference to the illiterate downtrodden was more metaphorical than objective, a commentary on worldliness, populations of apparatchiks who do not know they are because they have zero frame of reference. Sorry if I offended anyone.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 28, 2021, 08:24:33 am
My reference to the illiterate downtrodden was more metaphorical than objective, a commentary on worldliness, populations of apparatchiks who do not know they are because they have zero frame of reference. Sorry if I offended anyone.
No Probs LP, I was just pointing out its a bit of a common misconception about countries like Russia and China that they are stuck being in the dark ages. The politics is old school but the lifestyles for many are not too different to ours.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 28, 2021, 09:57:00 am
No Probs LP, I was just pointing out its a bit of a common misconception about countries like Russia and China that they are stuck being in the dark ages. The politics is old school but the lifestyles for many are not too different to ours.
Yes, probably as accused by middle America, not sure what to make of that! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on January 28, 2021, 10:49:16 am
No Probs LP, I was just pointing out its a bit of a common misconception about countries like Russia and China that they are stuck being in the dark ages. The politics is old school but the lifestyles for many are not too different to ours.



Aint that the truth, EB1 Old Son.

Sad really that the leadership of both Russia and China is so contrary to the people and culture. I have had many, many dealings with both Chinese and Russian people, rich and poor, and they're bloody rippers. In the backwoods of China and Russia you'll find some folks well behind the times, but peaceful. The worst 'backwoods' people I've ever encountered have been in the US, and they're, generally speaking, bloody scary.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 29, 2021, 03:42:53 pm
More evidence pointing to the shady Chinese regime and their cover up of Covid, at least the WHO finally look like
doing their job and stop being puppets of Beijing .
https://au.yahoo.com/news/china-accused-silencing-families-wuhan-virus-victims-who-investigation-021556798.html
Human rights lawyer Francis Boyle and his thoughts on the pandemics origins.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s56zAchvk3w
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 29, 2021, 04:07:52 pm
More evidence pointing to the shady Chinese regime and their cover up of Covid, at least the WHO finally look like
doing their job and stop being puppets of Beijing .
https://au.yahoo.com/news/china-accused-silencing-families-wuhan-virus-victims-who-investigation-021556798.html
Human rights lawyer Francis Boyle and his thoughts on the pandemics origins.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s56zAchvk3w
I think that is quite old @ElwoodBlues1‍, that interview was March or April last year. You have to keep in mind India is effectively in a border war with China, so it's motivated to guild the lily just a little! ;)

That is not to say that China hasn't been shady, it's clear from the science side that China knew of the virus long long before it announced it to the world, they had already sequenced the viral genome and released the data just a handful of days after being asked for data. A process that typically takes months and months to get right. Their eagerness to boast about their scientific prowess exposed the lie!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 29, 2021, 04:17:01 pm
I think that is quite old @ElwoodBlues1‍, that interview was March or April last year. You have to keep in mind India is effectively in a border war with China, so it's motivated to guild the lily just a little! ;)

That is not to say that China hasn't been shady, it's clear from the science side that China knew of the virus long long before it announced it to the world, they had already sequenced the viral genome and released the data just a handful of days after being asked for data. A process that typically takes months and months to get right. Their eagerness to boast about their scientific prowess exposed the lie!
https://au.news.yahoo.com/who-investigator-to-probe-wuhan-institute-virology-221207951.html
I guess the virology staff at the Wuhan lab will be on holiday when the WHO come a calling, be interesting to find out if indeed the staff had CoVid symptoms before the pandemic was unleashed on the world stage.
Chief virologist Shi Zhengli at the lab, often dubbed ‘Bat Woman’, previously told the BBC she would welcome a fair investigation at the lab, however her comments were quickly withdrawn by concerned officials.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 29, 2021, 06:54:44 pm
https://au.news.yahoo.com/who-investigator-to-probe-wuhan-institute-virology-221207951.html
I guess the virology staff at the Wuhan lab will be on holiday when the WHO come a calling, be interesting to find out if indeed the staff had CoVid symptoms before the pandemic was unleashed on the world stage.
Chief virologist Shi Zhengli at the lab, often dubbed ‘Bat Woman’, previously told the BBC she would welcome a fair investigation at the lab, however her comments were quickly withdrawn by concerned officials.
Is she the lass that has since disappeared?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 29, 2021, 11:02:13 pm
Is she the lass that has since disappeared?
Think she did go missing for a bit last year but popped up on TV in China a bit later, there was talk of her defecting to the West.
She probably had a friendly pep talk with some lovely people  from the State Security Ministry who convinced her to go back to the bat cave and resume the party line protocol...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 29, 2021, 11:25:45 pm
Very VERY good EB :) :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 30, 2021, 08:40:50 am
Just to put a modicum of balance to this argument about bio weapons.

The media we are all quoting lie to us as much as China would and would happily tell us the sort of crap we all want to hear or believe to keep us under their control.

Any report about a bat woman and bio weapon coming from them can't be trusted.  That's how you avoid confirmation bias from clouding your judgement.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 30, 2021, 12:11:49 pm
For those of you concerned by the various reports of various vaccine efficacy from 96% to 60% or less, know that efficacy as measured and reported is a very grey area, it's not a cut-off figure it's a gradient.

A vaccine that reduces symptoms can be just as effective as one that prevent infection, but how that is reported varies across global regions, and from study to study. For example, it could well be the case the Pfizer(96%) and Oxford(66%) vaccines are equally effective if reported under the same regime.

For example a vaccine might be reported as 50% efficacious because half the treated people still get infected, but it might be 100% effective at preventing acute symptoms. But how that is reported depends on the type of study and where it was conducted.

I asked a question of a researcher at CSIRO. What level of effectiveness makes a vaccine worthwhile? They replied they accept anything above 50% as being a very functional vaccine, apparently many of the seasonal shots we get can be as low as 30% efficacious, but that doesn't mean they do not still diminish an infections symptoms.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 30, 2021, 03:36:53 pm
I think you want a vaccine that prevents infection thus limiting spread and also reduces the severity of symptoms. Can't see the point if it's not real effective at both.
The Chinese vaccine is old tech making it easier to make and store like I said before.
It might be appealing to 3rd world nations or poorer countries but you wouldn't get too many Western residents wanting to be jabbed with anything China were peddling.
If you ran a poll on this site, I reckon you wouldn't get one person wanting the Chinese version...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 30, 2021, 03:54:02 pm
I think you want a vaccine that prevents infection thus limiting spread and also reduces the severity of symptoms. Can't see the point if it's not real effective at both.
That is not the case @ElwoodBlues1‍, many highly effective vaccines do not prevent infection.

For example the Hooping Cough vaccine doesn't prevent infection, but it 100% eliminates symptoms, which is why some anti-vaxers are so negligent when all they do is ask everybody else to get vaccinated and not vaccinate their own child!

FWIW, vaccines work one of two ways, they can provide an antibody response, so that generally prevents infections, or they can make the immune system T-Cells aware of proteins on the target virus or bacteria and cause the T-Cells to kill off the infection before it does harm. The T-Cell version does not stop you getting an infection, in fact T-Cells do nothing until the infection is in your system, but can be so effective at eliminating the symptoms and effects that people do not even know they have been infected.

Of all the vaccines you ever had the functional split is about 50/50, which will surprise a lot of people.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 30, 2021, 04:14:52 pm
That is not the case @ElwoodBlues1‍, many highly effective vaccines do not prevent infection.

For example the Hooping Cough vaccine doesn't prevent infection, but it 100% eliminates symptoms, which is why some anti-vaxers are so negligent when all they do is ask everybody else to get vaccinated and not vaccinate their own child!

FWIW, vaccines work one of two ways, they can provide an antibody response, so that generally prevents infections, or they can make the immune system T-Cells aware of proteins on the target virus or bacteria and cause the T-Cells to kill off the infection before it does harm. The T-Cell version does not to to stop you getting an infection, in fact T-Cells do nothing until the infection is in your system, but can be so effective at eliminating the symptoms and effects that you do not even know they have been infected. Of all the vaccines you ever had the functional split is about 50/50, which will surprise a lot of people.
Some vaccines stop you getting symptomatic disease, but others stop you getting infected too. The latter is known as “sterilising immunity”. With sterilising immunity, the virus can't even gain a toehold in the body because the immune system stops the virus entering cells and replicating.
Source: The conversation.com
I understand that most vaccines dont prevent infection but I was speaking in an ideal case...
I'm not a virologist just a simple elec engineer but getting to theme of my comments and thats the Chinese vaccine vs the others and I'm not sure you can return to normal in the big picture with one offering 50% effectiveness and others offering 90-95%.
Would you allow Brazilians, Indonesians, etc who have had the Chinese vaccine into Australia or allow them to travel without normal quarantine procedures?
 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 30, 2021, 04:19:59 pm
Some vaccines stop you getting symptomatic disease, but others stop you getting infected too. The latter is known as “sterilising immunity”. With sterilising immunity, the virus can't even gain a toehold in the body because the immune system stops the virus entering cells and replicating.
Source: The conversation.com
I understand that most vaccines dont prevent infection but I was speaking in an ideal case...
I'm not a virologist just a simple elec engineer but getting to theme of my comments and thats the Chinese vaccine vs the others and I'm not sure you can return to normal in the big picture with one offering 50% effectiveness and others offering 90-95%.
Would you allow Brazilians, Indonesians, etc who have had the Chinese vaccine into Australia or allow them to travel without normal quarantine procedures?
I agree about infection prevention being the gold standard.

I suspect detection of an immune response will be a test, how you get it makes little difference once you've got it, but how you get it is
important in other respects. Likely this will be the $0.10c per test style drop of blood on an indicator stick test that are currently being developed for SARS-CoV-2 antibodies.

A little known fact and one obviously absent in some debates, particularly for all those promoting herd immunity through ignorance, and absent at those anti-vaxer infection parties, is that viral mutation is accelerated by the human immune system. So letting people get infected as a way of creating herd immunity is downright dangerous, as it increases the number of viral variants in circulation.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on January 30, 2021, 04:36:25 pm
I'd be curious to know the country of manufacture of the standard injections Australian adults and kids receive - annual flu shot, measles, chickenpox etc.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 30, 2021, 06:46:51 pm
I'd be curious to know the country of manufacture of the standard injections Australian adults and kids receive - annual flu shot, measles, chickenpox etc.

@PaulP .... GSK Pharmaceuticals.  Based in MEL and SYD

https://au.gsk.com/en-au/contact-us/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on January 30, 2021, 07:15:14 pm
@PaulP .... GSK Pharmaceuticals

https://au.gsk.com/en-au/contact-us/

Thanks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on January 30, 2021, 07:44:52 pm
I think you want a vaccine that prevents infection thus limiting spread and also reduces the severity of symptoms. Can't see the point if it's not real effective at both.
The Chinese vaccine is old tech making it easier to make and store like I said before.
It might be appealing to 3rd world nations or poorer countries but you wouldn't get too many too many Western residents wanting to be jabbed with anything China were peddling.
If you ran a poll on this site, I reckon you wouldn't get one person wanting the Chinese version...

Spot on.

Truth be known you'd probably be hard pressed to find every day Chinese folk who'd trust anything their govt controls, especially a vaccine!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 31, 2021, 07:21:12 am
I'd be curious to know the country of manufacture of the standard injections Australian adults and kids receive - annual flu shot, measles, chickenpox etc.
Seqirus (CSL) makes flu vaccine at the Parkville facility, they are building a new $1B .facility at Tullamarine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on January 31, 2021, 08:35:53 am
Seqirus (CSL) makes flu vaccine at the Parkville facility, they are building a new $1B .facility at Tullamarine.

Thanks Nando.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on January 31, 2021, 10:56:51 pm
A friend of mine just posted this...

My brother flew from Perth to Adelaide today for work. When the WA premier announced a 5 day lock down, he was told, on arrival in Adelaide, that he would have to self isolate for 14 days.
He then immediately booked a return flight back to Perth, from where had just come, so he could self isolate and work for 5 days at home.
He has been refused entry back into Western Australia, although he lives there and just came from there.


Seems a bit crazy!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 01, 2021, 07:37:59 am
A friend of mine just posted this...

My brother flew from Perth to Adelaide today for work. When the WA premier announced a 5 day lock down, he was told, on arrival in Adelaide, that he would have to self isolate for 14 days.
He then immediately booked a return flight back to Perth, from where had just come, so he could self isolate and work for 5 days at home.
He has been refused entry back into Western Australia, although he lives there and just came from there.


Seems a bit crazy!


This is why the covid response is lambasted and not trusted.

It makes a mockery of everything.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 01, 2021, 08:02:18 am
Power hungry maniacs ... ALL of them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 01, 2021, 08:12:55 am
Doesn’t the Chinese vaccine come with a free microchip ... or is that all of them?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on February 01, 2021, 09:17:30 am
A friend of mine just posted this...

My brother flew from Perth to Adelaide today for work. When the WA premier announced a 5 day lock down, he was told, on arrival in Adelaide, that he would have to self isolate for 14 days.
He then immediately booked a return flight back to Perth, from where had just come, so he could self isolate and work for 5 days at home.
He has been refused entry back into Western Australia, although he lives there and just came from there.


Seems a bit crazy!


Astonishing!

How hard would it have been to announce on arrival in Adelaide, "For those who live (come from etc) in WA, there has been a hardening of border control in WA owing to a Covid discovery... if you reside in WA and would like to immediately return, please go to counter ******"

As the old saying goes, 'Common sense... aint so common.'
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on February 01, 2021, 09:33:54 am
Maybe some of the self righteous living west of the Eucla Roadhouse might develop some empathy for others over the next five days.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 01, 2021, 10:35:30 am
Maybe some of the self righteous living west of the Eucla Roadhouse might develop some empathy for others over the next five days.
I couldn't help but think political retribution the moment I read the headline, secession or expulsion?

The irony is the state that threatened to leave the Federation rather than open it's borders, will now put it's hand out for Federal funding.

Does the hypocrisy and randomness of decision making around COVID expose just how little some in power know, or do they know more than they let on?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 01, 2021, 12:50:30 pm
Doesn’t the Chinese vaccine come with a free microchip ... or is that all of them?
Why would they bother implanting a chip, when they can just put them in all smart phones and have everyone happily carry it around?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 01, 2021, 12:59:33 pm
Thanks Nando.
Thought you might be interested @PaulP

I've read a bit of argy-bargy online discussing the virality versus lethality, with some deniers claiming the new variants prove COVID isn't a risk because lethality hasn't risen despite increased transmission in the new variants, it's a pretty poor conclusion they've come to, firstly because deaths lag infections by a couple of months so it's too early to call, secondly because the fundamental conclusion is very wrong.

Quote from: Michael Le Page, New Scientist
A simple calculation illustrates why. Suppose 10,000 people are infected in a city and each infects 1.1 other people on average, the low end for the estimated rate of infection in England now. After a month, 16,000 people would have been infected. If the infection fatality rate is 0.8 per cent, as it was in England at the end of the first wave of infections, it would mean 128 deaths.

With a variant that is 50 per cent more deadly, those 16,000 cases would result in 192 deaths. But with a variant that is 50 per cent more transmissible, though no more deadly, there would be 122,000 cases after a month, leading to 976 deaths.
 


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on February 01, 2021, 01:15:27 pm
Thought you might be interested @PaulP

I've read a bit of argy-bargy online discussing the virality versus lethality, with some deniers claiming the new variants prove COVID isn't a risk because lethality hasn't risen despite increased transmission in the new variants, it's a pretty poor conclusion they've come to, firstly because deaths lag infections by a couple of months so it's too early to call, secondly because the fundamental conclusion is very wrong.
 

Thanks Pat.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 01, 2021, 07:38:23 pm
Why would they bother implanting a chip, when they can just put them in all smart phones and have everyone happily carry it around?

Stop being logical Thry ... you'll spoil it for the tinfoil hat brigade  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 01, 2021, 07:46:12 pm
Why would they bother implanting a chip, when they can just put them in all smart phones and have everyone happily carry it around?
There is a new series on Netflix call spycraft.
Only 1 episode in, but its eyeopening.

Its worth a viewing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on February 02, 2021, 09:39:26 am
Apparently they're already embedded within the Hardware, hence Hauwei excluded from infrastructure contracts
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 02, 2021, 09:51:44 am
Apparently they're already embedded within the Hardware, hence Hauwei excluded from infrastructure contracts
Lay people thinking about embedded chips believe they are devices you can see with your eye if you open up a gadget for inspection. But the current surveillance chips can be so small they are smaller than the fullstop at the end of this sentence. They can be soldered into a circuit and not even an expert will find them, or even worse still, most circuit boards are multi-layered laminate structures and the spy chips can be put in-between the circuit board layers sandwiched between two layers of copper.

The next generation of devices are going to be even more insidious, they can be printed with conductive polymers in what looks to everyone like normal everyday colour ink, a logo or a picture can effectively become a surveillance device. You can send a flyer to a target and bug their office, home, etc., etc., sending hundreds or thousands of them because they cost 1c a piece to make, the same cost as printing a coloured A4 page!

But perhaps if you want to discuss this stuff it needs a new thread.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 02, 2021, 06:15:25 pm
Chinese vaccine is a bummer and looks like their latest testing technique is similar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeYlUIeBaZk
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 04, 2021, 06:50:36 am
Security guard at the Aus open hotel tested positive to the mutant strain. Was only a matter of time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 04, 2021, 08:08:59 am
Yes, as much as we would like it this is not going away anytime soon. It'll be a rollercoaster of messages and emotions for some time to come.

To keep yourself sane never celebrate too soon, and certainly never throw the baby out with the bathwater at the first sign of trouble.

Do not let the naysayers get in your head, the Andrew Bolts and Alan Jones of this world who spend all day dragging you down with "coulda and shoulda", they offer no solutions and just rag on whatever is decided, and in reality there is little or no other effective choice than to act swiftly to constrain spread.

The Feds and States are learning, to stop hell from breaking loose they have to be hyper-vigilant and ultra-reactive, that means things must go from zero to hero in hours not days or weeks like before. You'll find there is less and less "From next week.... " type messaging, and far more "From tomorrow .................. "
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 04, 2021, 11:39:43 am
Its interesting.  We start vaccinating very soon.

Whats the bet we take our time getting "on top" of this officially?

It all makes it look like they simply want to give everyone the jab which was a point raised VERY early on in this.

I still dont know whats worse.  Covid or the Jab.

For a disease thats highly infectious and deadly, I havent come across too many infected people, and cant tell you many that have died from it.  If I need a vaccine to guard against something i havent caught whilst walking in and out of a hospital where they were treating the thing the whole way through, then it makes me wonder why i am bothering (yes I do go everywhere, and yes I agree prevention is better than cure, and yes I think we could do more to prevent the community transmission and no I am not diminishing the covid threat, I am simply stating that I think the vaccine is likely to cause more issues for more people than the actual virus would).

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 04, 2021, 11:53:59 am
For a disease thats highly infectious and deadly, I havent come across too many infected people, and cant tell you many that have died from it.  If I need a vaccine to guard against something i havent caught whilst walking in and out of a hospital where they were treating the thing the whole way through, then it makes me wonder why i am bothering (yes I do go everywhere, and yes I agree prevention is better than cure, and yes I think we could do more to prevent the community transmission and no I am not diminishing the covid threat, I am simply stating that I think the vaccine is likely to cause more issues for more people than the actual virus would).
@Thryleon, isn't your good health and limited exposure to infection a consequence of the restrictions and actions, that have prevented overflow in wards and loss of control over the epidemic?

Your experience is not reflected in those areas that have been indifferent to the virus, if you were walking out of a UK or USA hospital workplace, indifference leads to what has happened in the UK or USA! Also as bad as what is happening in those regions, that is only really considering the short term, the potential long term effects and costs are glaring!

I don't think the vaccines are any more of an issue than any other vaccine, so I do not understand where your concern comes from. There have already been millions and millions of people vaccinated world wide, and the numbers of those suffering illness confirmed as a reaction to the vaccine is very very small. The Norway deaths / events are not evidence of the vaccine being faulty, it's just proof that unwell frail people are more susceptible to complications from any form of treatment whether it is complicated or trivial.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 04, 2021, 12:33:00 pm
Its interesting.  We start vaccinating very soon.

Whats the bet we take our time getting "on top" of this officially?

It all makes it look like they simply want to give everyone the jab which was a point raised VERY early on in this.

I still dont know whats worse.  Covid or the Jab.

For a disease thats highly infectious and deadly, I havent come across too many infected people, and cant tell you many that have died from it.  If I need a vaccine to guard against something i havent caught whilst walking in and out of a hospital where they were treating the thing the whole way through, then it makes me wonder why i am bothering (yes I do go everywhere, and yes I agree prevention is better than cure, and yes I think we could do more to prevent the community transmission and no I am not diminishing the covid threat, I am simply stating that I think the vaccine is likely to cause more issues for more people than the actual virus would).


Lot of convincing to do to get healthcare workers on mass to take the jab,I'm pro vaccine 99.99% of the time but there just hasnt been enough testing to satisfy all the different areas of concern across the community.
A lot of people I speak to and family who work in the healthcare industry dont want the first vaccine until all the bugs are tweaked out of it . While we have low levels of infection I'd rather the rest of the world be the guinea pigs while we sit back and take notes at least for this first wave of vaccines.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 04, 2021, 01:03:36 pm
@Thryleon, isn't your good health and limited exposure to infection a consequence of the restrictions and actions, that have prevented overflow in wards and loss of control over the epidemic?

Your experience is not reflected in those areas that have been indifferent to the virus, if you were walking out of a UK or USA hospital workplace, indifference leads to what has happened in the UK or USA! Also as bad as what is happening in those regions, that is only really considering the short term, the potential long term effects and costs are glaring!

I don't think the vaccines are any more of an issue than any other vaccine, so I do not understand where your concern comes from. There have already been millions and millions of people vaccinated world wide, and the numbers of those suffering illness confirmed as a reaction to the vaccine is very very small. The Norway deaths / events are not evidence of the vaccine being faulty, it's just proof that unwell frail people are more susceptible to complications from any form of treatment whether it is complicated or trivial.

Not really.

My lack of infection has more to do with good luck and my personal responsibility when faced with situations where I may be in the presence of those carrying the virus.

I.e.  I have gone into covid wards, and I make sure I don't take it out with me, and clean myself 3 times over both on the way in and out.

Why do I need a jab, if it hasnt infected me through my PPE (note: confirmed covid positive areas, not just a ward that is designated for covid and has a few suspected)?

NOTE:  I DO NOT TREAT PATIENTS, but I do look after the equipment the staff use to treat patients.

I have put myself at more risk putting equipment in place to prevent OTHERS from getting put at risk, and as a consequence have probably worn more risk than most people more often, and have yet to be covid positive.

Now all of that is neither here nor there with respect to the Pandemic.  I have agreed and disagreed with the lockdowns for the same reason I agree and disagree with the jab, but the jab is different from the lockdowns for one reason:  Its more likely to yield really harmful results than said virus to most people.  Why?  Because this virus, is not the evil that we first thought it was for most people.  Now that we know this, I am going to point to the Hippocratic oath, and bold one line:

 
Quote
   I swear by Apollo Healer, by Asclepius, by Hygieia, by Panacea, and by all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will carry out, according to my ability and judgment, this oath and this indenture.

    To hold my teacher in this art equal to my own parents; to make him partner in my livelihood; when he is in need of money to share mine with him; to consider his family as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they want to learn it, without fee or indenture; to impart precept, oral instruction, and all other instruction to my own sons, the sons of my teacher, and to indentured pupils who have taken the Healer’s oath, but to nobody else.

    I will use those dietary regimens which will benefit my patients according to my greatest ability and judgment, and I will do no harm or injustice to them.[7] Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly I will not give to a woman a pessary to cause abortion. But I will keep pure and holy both my life and my art. I will not use the knife, not even, verily, on sufferers from stone, but I will give place to such as are craftsmen therein.

    Into whatsoever houses I enter, I will enter to help the sick, and I will abstain from all intentional wrong-doing and harm, especially from abusing the bodies of man or woman, bond or free. And whatsoever I shall see or hear in the course of my profession, as well as outside my profession in my intercourse with men, if it be what should not be published abroad, I will never divulge, holding such things to be holy secrets.

    Now if I carry out this oath, and break it not, may I gain for ever reputation among all men for my life and for my art; but if I break it and forswear myself, may the opposite befall me.[6] – Translation by W.H.S. Jones.

This vaccine, seems to be as much poison as it is preventative and cure and I am extremely worried not only about my own personal well being with this one, and the well being of those around me too.

Yes, I pity those people who get COVID, and I dont wish it upon anyone, and I want everyone safe and well, but if the means to protect people is more harmful than what you are protecting them from, then why are we doing it?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 04, 2021, 01:10:25 pm
We put a tennis tournament ahead of the health of our citizens. We brought people who we knew were positive into our state. If anyone dies because of this then the the person responsible should go to prison.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 04, 2021, 02:01:52 pm
Kristina Kenneally is the perennial whinger about bringing people home.  Can she just do the same?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 04, 2021, 02:02:48 pm
Quote
Thanks to my job as a doctor in a small regional hospital in Tirol, yesterday I received the Pfizer COVID vaccine. And although you might think that I resent the residual muscle ache (just a normal post-vaccination tenderness, no other symptoms), I actually kind of love it. My fingers keep finding it and pressing it, like a kid with a bruise.

Because it reminds me of what it means.

It means that my body's cells are ingesting the genetic material (called mRNA) from the vaccine, decoding it and making the COVID spike proteins on their surfaces.

It means that my body's immune system is, as I type these very words, encountering those spike proteins for the first time, recognising them as foreign intruders, and mounting an attack on them.

It means my body is actively creating custom-made antibodies which will stick to the spike proteins and help disable and eliminate those infected cells.

And best of all, it means any future invasions of real virus particles won't stand a chance, because my body will remember those spike proteins from the vaccination and — like flicking a switch — simply pump out floods of the same antibodies it made last time, resulting in a coordinated and speedy attack.

Science is just so bloody cool.

It sure is!

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-04/vaccine-message-to-anti-vaxxers/13114344?sf242619093=1&fbclid=IwAR21ueKGR0MtkA5WT6K6gWGsGkKjo6GsWvkv9a3FvUe4uBFV6FxyhfwewjA
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 04, 2021, 02:06:17 pm
Now all of that is neither here nor there with respect to the Pandemic.  I have agreed and disagreed with the lockdowns for the same reason I agree and disagree with the jab, but the jab is different from the lockdowns for one reason:  Its more likely to yield really harmful results than said virus to most people.  Why?  Because this virus, is not the evil that we first thought it was for most people.
Can I ask about the bit in bold, how do you weigh that?

This vaccine, seems to be as much poison as it is preventative and cure and I am extremely worried not only about my own personal well being with this one, and the well being of those around me too.
I presume you come at this from an evidence base, can you share it?

If you were able to obtain evidence on demand, what evidence would you accept that the / a vaccine is safe?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 04, 2021, 02:16:56 pm
We put a tennis tournament ahead of the health of our citizens. We brought people who we knew were positive into our state. If anyone dies because of this then the the person responsible should go to prison.
I'm not too concerned about the tournament going ahead, I don't think it should be allowed to have crowds in the current circumstance. Managing a couple of hundred players for a couple of weeks is infinitely simpler than managing 30K people per day, perhaps 250K distinct people over the tournament length!

I'm quite concerned at the amount of push-back circulating in social media this time, it looks like too many think the vaccine is a silver bullet or that COVID isn't as bad in either the short term of the long term. Politicians like Craig Kelly and COVID denying anti-vaxers like Pete Evans have a lot to answer for!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 04, 2021, 02:29:51 pm
You're not concerned about deliberately bringing infected people into our country and city to play tennis?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 04, 2021, 02:33:07 pm
It sure is!

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-04/vaccine-message-to-anti-vaxxers/13114344?sf242619093=1&fbclid=IwAR21ueKGR0MtkA5WT6K6gWGsGkKjo6GsWvkv9a3FvUe4uBFV6FxyhfwewjA
This my top takeaway from that article;
Quote
The problem is that we humans are suckers for the status quo. When life is good, we're hardwired to coast along, and not do anything to disrupt that. It's only when crap (like our health) hits the fan, that we suddenly desperately want someone to DO SOMETHING, ANYTHING, to make it better again.
Nobody would have cried or panicked more than Trump when he was diagnosed, despite have all the resources of the USA at his behest, resources that his adoring fans will never even get within sight of! That sloth stood by doing absolutely sweet feck all except paint lies about his actions, while millions of his countrymen became ill, many of them eventually dying.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 04, 2021, 02:42:15 pm
You're not concerned about deliberately bringing infected people into our country and city to play tennis?
@madbluboy It's an interesting idea if that really happened, that is if they deliberately imported a foreigner they knew was COVID infectious. Think of what that means for example to the airline and other employers, to the insurance companies?

As I understand all those arriving have to pass a negative on a COVID test before being allowed to board the plane, even Australian citizens can't get on a plane if they test positive.

I thought the players that have arrived with positives after arrival are likely to have contracted or become infectious while in transit or quarantine, it's understandable given what you get exposed to while travelling.

I think this will become the new normal for travel anyway, I can't ever see it going back to the old normal, so we better get our head around dealing with it!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 04, 2021, 02:58:19 pm
Can I ask about the bit in bold, how do you weigh that?

Simple stuff.  The initial modelling was done on every covid positive needing ECMO or an ICU admission.  That meant that people who didnt get treatment were certainties to die from it.  Thats why we locked down to prevent the spread.  Then we got case numbers in the thousands, and tens of thousands with the net result of people who were already immuno compromised really the only ones that led to really adverse outcomes (note this is not true of everyone, but we are likely to take the same approach with administering a vaccine for a net break even here).  the rest have become sick and are getting on with their lives with some ongoing symptoms that are not life threatening (for now as far as we know).  Now I don't want to diminish the risks associated with COVID and i do think we should do what is in our power to prevent these people becoming unwell, but not via injecting everyone with a jab that is both costly and developed so quickly that I am skeptical about it.  I am not an anti vaxer, and you can shut down that pete evans crap right now.


Quote
I presume you come at this from an evidence base, can you share it?

If you were able to obtain evidence on demand, what evidence would you accept that the / a vaccine is safe?

My evidence based perspective is largely formed by an opinion shared with me by an Epidemiologist before we were told that a vaccine was available and works.  He stated, that Covid being from the SARS family of viruses wont likely get a vaccine because we didnt find a SARS vaccine, and that means that any COVID vaccine is years away from being administered.  Within 6 months he is proven incorrect.

Now, call me a cynic, but its my life experience that has taught me to be one, but I think that the global pandemic has caused such a lot of disruption and panic, that the only way for the people who called it one to save face in it, is to come up with a miracle cure that sees it "vanish" as quickly as it came.  This refers you back to my previous point about it not being as bad as we thought initially.  You combine this with a vaccine hastily produced, and my sentiment is very very unlikely to shift about any vaccine they sell me.

So much so, that I might even resign if faced with the proposition of get it or go being presented to me.  I dont say that easily, ive been here for a while, and I like where I am at, but sometimes you have to do whats right, not what is easy. 

I get the flu vaccine every year largely because I have to, to do my job.  Not because I think it works, but also because there is a report sent around if I dont get one. This time, I dont think I will take such a flippant approach for a vaccine to a virus we only really started learning about a year ago.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 04, 2021, 03:22:35 pm
Simple stuff.  The initial modelling was done on every covid positive needing ECMO or an ICU admission.  That meant that people who didnt get treatment were certainties to die from it.  Thats why we locked down to prevent the spread.  Then we got case numbers in the thousands, and tens of thousands with the net result of people who were already immuno compromised really the only ones that led to really adverse outcomes (note this is not true of everyone, but we are likely to take the same approach with administering a vaccine for a net break even here).  the rest have become sick and are getting on with their lives with some ongoing symptoms that are not life threatening (for now as far as we know).  Now I don't want to diminish the risks associated with COVID and i do think we should do what is in our power to prevent these people becoming unwell, but not via injecting everyone with a jab that is both costly and developed so quickly that I am skeptical about it.  I am not an anti vaxer, and you can shut down that pete evans crap right now.
Yes, the "life threatening" part is interesting, is that what it takes for an illness to be treated seriously?

A lot of people talk about the fiscal and mental health effects of dealing with COVID lockdowns, what mental health or fiscal effects of illness induced sterility, partial paralysis or paraplegia, anosmia, myopia and the growing list of neurological disorders?

In the UK after millions and millions of cases, the statistical numbers relating to the widespread long term effects are concerning enough for me to say vaccines are worth it. The report is about 10% of cases suffer significant long term issues like those listed above, add to that we now have burgeoning reports of late fatalities from secondary admissions to hospital months and months after the initial hospitalisation. Those figures coming out of millions of cases would be pretty reliable numbers. Doesn't that count for anything?

I wonder if the COVID deniers would have been so quick to release their kids to a mild infection, if they knew there was a risk of little Jimmy or Jill becoming sterile. Of course we do not know the long term outcome, but is it worth the risk? Perhaps our old mate Pete can host a COVID party! :o

If Trump hadn't been in power and politically smashing the CDC or NIH, we'd have reliable numbers from the US as well by now, the debate would be dead and buried(bad choice of words).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 04, 2021, 03:26:40 pm
My evidence based perspective is largely formed by an opinion shared with me by an Epidemiologist before we were told that a vaccine was available and works.  He stated, that Covid being from the SARS family of viruses wont likely get a vaccine because we didnt find a SARS vaccine, and that means that any COVID vaccine is years away from being administered.  Within 6 months he is proven incorrect.

Now, call me a cynic, but its my life experience that has taught me to be one, but I think that the global pandemic has caused such a lot of disruption and panic, that the only way for the people who called it one to save face in it, is to come up with a miracle cure that sees it "vanish" as quickly as it came.  This refers you back to my previous point about it not being as bad as we thought initially.  You combine this with a vaccine hastily produced, and my sentiment is very very unlikely to shift about any vaccine they sell me.

So much so, that I might even resign if faced with the proposition of get it or go being presented to me.  I dont say that easily, ive been here for a while, and I like where I am at, but sometimes you have to do whats right, not what is easy. 

I get the flu vaccine every year largely because I have to, to do my job.  Not because I think it works, but also because there is a report sent around if I dont get one. This time, I dont think I will take such a flippant approach for a vaccine to a virus we only really started learning about a year ago.
So really you're asserting you do not think any vaccine is really regardless of available evidence, does that make this debate pointless?

It would be reasonable to declare that position when commenting, it doesn't make you an anti-vaxer but it's not a trivial perspective to start from. What do you want from some 3rd party commenting like myself, are you trying to convert?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 04, 2021, 03:45:40 pm
I'm with MBB on the tennis....its all about money and less about lives, we were happy to cancel the cricket in South Africa where there was no money to be made yet happy to have the Indians tour and it will take a nuclear war to stop a money spinner like the Ashes going ahead next summer. Those same cricketers who were at such high risk going to South Africa are all headed to the IPL to ply their trade for mega bucks and of course will get special treatment so they can re-enter the country.
The Aus open is just another sporting money spinner that wont be cancelled, tennis players and their entourage's from all parts of the glove entering our country is just too much of a risk given the new strains and whats happening in their own countries.
600 possible contacts and counting from our infected friend and a range of exposure sites, going to take a miracle for none of those contacts not to have it and not infect others and start off another chain.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 04, 2021, 04:04:57 pm
I'm with MBB on the tennis....its all about money and less about lives,
Most of the money is not connected to the crowds, it's TV, so maybe you can have a bit each way provided you do not cheap out and burn the house down in the process!

But I would not leave the firefighting and prevention drills up the organisers, they will certainly take a shortcut as the bottom line pays bonusses, I'd be all over them like a Bureaucratic rash with the threat of criminal charges for any negligence! In that circumstance they will decide themselves if it's worth it or not! Do not let them run the even at zero risk, make them accountable!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 04, 2021, 04:21:03 pm
So really you're asserting you do not think any vaccine is really regardless of available evidence, does that make this debate pointless?

It would be reasonable to declare that position when commenting, it doesn't make you an anti-vaxer but it's not a trivial perspective to start from. What do you want from some 3rd party commenting like myself, are you trying to convert?

No you are asserting that, because it makes that argument easier to attack and much easier to paint me as a Pete Evans type.  To date, I have not refused a vaccine, but this might be my first rodeo.   The anti vax crowd is who this entire argument is aimed at to start with.  I am quite balanced with my views, particularly in respect to COVID.  I have not stated the thing about the epidemiologist for the first time on this forum, and frankly, I did so thinking that I might have to make that argument again pretty quickly because they found a magic covid bullet and lo and behold here we are.

Why dont we simply keep our country COVID free for 2 years, and then get some meaningful data about what a covid vaccine means for the nations that have vaccinated, rather than become a guinea pig like the rest?

Isn't that smarter than making everyone get a vaccine?  Why?  If they give us a vaccine, and then no one gets covid it doesnt vindicate anything if we stay covid safe here.  If they give us a vaccine, and our numbers are similar, we keep wearing masks, the lockdowns continue, then there is minimal value in the vaccine too.  Instead we are jumping on board for a vaccine, that we statistically dont see in our community, and havent really seen in our community.  Will it be bad, will it be good?  Will people get sick, will they die? Can you answer these questions?

Id like to see a lot more data about all of it, but I am not going to get that choice, and you can bet your bottom dollar that my vaccine proposition is much closer to me, than it is to you.  Frankly, I think you are debating this with yourself, and not me. 


Yes, the "life threatening" part is interesting, is that what it takes for an illness to be treated seriously?
No, but the only confirmed cases I know of, are back to work, and generally symptom free aside from compromised senses of smell.

Now that in itself is bad enough, but lets place that to the side for a moment.  Lets inject people with a vaccine that we are not even confident works, because the rest of the world says so?  What about our Nurse in portugal who got the jab in her early 40's and passed away within 48 hours?

https://www.theportugalnews.com/news/2021-01-06/autopsy-concludes-that-woman-s-death-was-not-due-to-the-vaccine/57533

its ok, she didnt suffer any adverse reactions, and had no underlying health concerns.  Must have died of natural causes.

Quote
A lot of people talk about the fiscal and mental health effects of dealing with COVID lockdowns, what mental health or fiscal effects of illness induced sterility, partial paralysis or paraplegia, anosmia, myopia and the growing list of neurological disorders?

In the UK after millions and millions of cases, the statistical numbers relating to the widespread long term effects are concerning enough for me to say vaccines are worth it.
  Thats a different debate.  I am not saying vaccines are not worth it.  I dont want the COVID vaccine, and Id rather we took a different approach, rather than jumping on the Vaccine bandwagon.  We have happily kept our country rather COVID free, and I am an advocate of that approach not a vaccination.

Quote
The report about 10% of cases suffer significant long term issues like those listed above, add to that we now have burgeoning reports of late fatalities from secondary admissions to hospital months and months after the initial hospitalisation. Doesn't that count for anything?
  That counts for something with respect to what the virus is capable of doing, but if faced with a covid positive outcome, or a vaccine outcome, i choose the former not the latter in respect to where we live and our case numbers.  I am not certain to get Covid, but if i get a vaccine I am certainly worried that it will cause more harm to me than the virus will, because probability states that whilst we are covid free I am unlikely to contract it, and even if I did, probability also states that I have a high chance of having minimal issues (asymptomatic cases are far more common than symptomatic according to the case numbers and not all positive cases lead to medical treatment is another factor the data).  So far, 100% of vaccinations received a vaccine.  Sure, not all of them had adverse effects, but some do and some have, and referring back to my epidemiologist whom I quoted earlier, he asserted that they are unlikely to produce one so quickly.  Ergo, what are we ACTUALLY getting?

Quote
I wonder if the COVID deniers would have been so quick to release their kids to a mild infection, if they knew there was a risk of little Jimmy or Jill becoming sterile. Of course we do not know the long term outcome, but is it worth the risk?

If Trump hadn't been in power and politically smashing the CDC or NIH, we'd have reliable numbers from the US as well by now, the debate would be dead and buried(bad choice of words).

Not relevant, but nice try.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 04, 2021, 04:22:21 pm
Most of the money is not connected to the crowds, it's TV, so maybe you can have a bit each way provided you do not cheap out and burn the house down in the process!

But I would not leave the firefighting and prevention drills up the organisers, they will certainly take a shortcut as the bottom line pays bonusses, I'd be all over them like a Bureaucratic rash with the threat of criminal charges for any negligence! In that circumstance they will decide themselves if it's worth it or not! Do not let them run the even at zero risk, make them accountable!
You cancel the Tennis then there are no sponsors and as you say no TV so no money...the live crowd are accessories.
The players and their entourage entering the country from all parts of the world are the problem and as you say relying on organisers to be extra vigilant isnt going to work when its such a big event.
Can you trust Dan?, he was the lockdown king but now with bills to pay and elections to win, he wants a bit each way..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 04, 2021, 05:01:27 pm
No you are asserting that, because it makes that argument easier to attack and much easier to paint me as a Pete Evans type.
I haven't associated you with Pete Evans, I just made a general comment about people like Evans, you decided I was implying it was about you, why are you paranoid?

I did asked you a simple question, not related to your decision about getting or refusing a vaccine. I asked what evidence could I provide that would convince you a vaccine was safe, and in effect you replied there is no evidence I could provide that would make you think a vaccine is safe. Not by saying that directly, but it doesn't change the meaning of your response, it's not an area you can work around and not related to or painting you as a Pete Evans. type, it's a simple question. You should even ask it of yourself!

I do not know what you are looking for, so it's a simple question from my perspective as well.

Why dont we simply keep our country COVID free for 2 years, and then get some meaningful data about what a covid vaccine means for the nations that have vaccinated, rather than become a guinea pig like the rest?

No, but the only confirmed cases I know of, are back to work, and generally symptom free aside from compromised senses of smell.
That is interesting terminology, a vaccine guinea pig, when you allow an infection isn't that an infection guinea pig?

Restriction is a romantic notion, we can't even keep the dissenters at bay for a few weeks and you want them constrained for 2 years, is that realistic or are you just taking the piss? The first-hand experiences in a town with a few thousand cases is a not indicative. Are those circus tents turn into massive morgues in the USA and UK fake news, just a conspiracy?

Are the numbers less accurate where there are more cases to study, or is your personal perspective a position of privilege? Why is it so important, how do you convince me you are right and "all the rest" are wrong?

Now that in itself is bad enough, but lets place that to the side for a moment.  Lets inject people with a vaccine that we are not even confident works, because the rest of the world says so?  What about our Nurse in portugal who got the jab in her early 40's and passed away within 48 hours?

https://www.theportugalnews.com/news/2021-01-06/autopsy-concludes-that-woman-s-death-was-not-due-to-the-vaccine/57533

its ok, she didnt suffer any adverse reactions, and had no underlying health concerns.  Must have died of natural causes.
That story is as bad as those who choose to associate MMR with Down Syndrome, and a journalistic disgrace.

When you are vaccinating millions, there would be even more people that have died in the COVID vaccine waiting room, probably even more that died in a car accident on the way to the clinic, just the thought of the vaccine killed them it seems! :o

Not relevant, but nice try.
I would of thought risk is very relevant, doing nothing can hold as much risk as doing the wrong thing, as Trump demonstrated, what are they up to now in deaths?

If you can, ask your epidemiologist friend about human immune system accelerated viral mutation in the context of herd immunity and non-vaccination. I'd love to read a response.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 04, 2021, 05:52:57 pm
Lot of convincing to do to get healthcare workers on mass to take the jab,I'm pro vaccine 99.99% of the time but there just hasnt been enough testing to satisfy all the different areas of concern across the community.

Agree.

I am pro-vaccine. My wife works for CSL and somewhat indirectly helps vaccines get made.

BUT.....there is just something about this whole thing that feels like it could come back to bite us.

Everything has been rushed through. They are still working out what Covid is doing long term and they have no idea what the vaccine will do in similar.

Never get the 'new model' as soon as its out. Let people find the bugs in it and get the v2.0 which will be better off.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 04, 2021, 06:47:50 pm
I've been following death trends by country from (virtually) day one.  I cannot think of any rational argument that, in any part, explains the massive US figures and fully expected India's path to follow suit.  For months it did and in the thousands every day.  Now?  Plummeted.

I mean, WTF?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 04, 2021, 06:49:39 pm
Agree.

I am pro-vaccine. My wife works for CSL and somewhat indirectly helps vaccines get made.

BUT.....there is just something about this whole thing that feels like it could come back to bite us.

Everything has been rushed through. They are still working out what Covid is doing long term and they have no idea what the vaccine will do in similar.

Never get the 'new model' as soon as its out. Let people find the bugs in it and get the v2.0 which will be better off.
I have a daughter who is a RN and family members who are paramedics, none want the vaccine and none of their friends do either.
My son is getting married in April and his wife to be wants to start a family but the info on CoVid vaccine effects on pregnancies/newborns is zero.
Agree on the " new model theory" and in fact even Version 2 might be a gamble given the average time to produce an effective and safe vaccine for most other conditions is ten years. I do get we need it now and its been fast tracked but you cant tell me every scenario in the community has been fully tested.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 04, 2021, 07:29:53 pm
I have a daughter who is a RN and family members who are paramedics, none want the vaccine and none of their friends do either.
My son is getting married in April and his wife to be wants to start a family but the info on CoVid vaccine effects on pregnancies/newborns is zero.
Agree on the " new model theory" and in fact even Version 2 might be a gamble given the average time to produce an effective and safe vaccine for most other conditions is ten years. I do get we need it now and its been fast tracked but you cant tell me every scenario in the community has been fully tested.
Im the complete opposite EB, I have every faith in the vaccine and whilst rushed, its a different rushed. The collaboration and sharing of info around the globe by the best scientists on the planet has been like never before. I am told the the number of people used for clinical trials is many times more than the number for normal clinical trials and much more data has been available. Each to their own though, I would happily have the vaccine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 04, 2021, 07:58:19 pm
I haven't associated you with Pete Evans, I just made a general comment about people like Evans, you decided I was implying it was about you, why are you paranoid?

I did asked you a simple question, not related to your decision about getting or refusing a vaccine. I asked what evidence could I provide that would convince you a vaccine was safe, and in effect you replied there is no evidence I could provide that would make you think a vaccine is safe. Not by saying that directly, but it doesn't change the meaning of your response, it's not an area you can work around and not related to or painting you as a Pete Evans. type, it's a simple question. You should even ask it of yourself!

I do not know what you are looking for, so it's a simple question from my perspective as well.
That is interesting terminology, a vaccine guinea pig, when you allow an infection isn't that an infection guinea pig?

Restriction is a romantic notion, we can't even keep the dissenters at bay for a few weeks and you want them constrained for 2 years, is that realistic or are you just taking the piss? The first-hand experiences in a town with a few thousand cases is a not indicative. Are those circus tents turn into massive morgues in the USA and UK fake news, just a conspiracy?

Are the numbers less accurate where there are more cases to study, or is your personal perspective a position of privilege? Why is it so important, how do you convince me you are right and "all the rest" are wrong?
That story is as bad as those who choose to associate MMR with Down Syndrome, and a journalistic disgrace.

When you are vaccinating millions, there would be even more people that have died in the COVID vaccine waiting room, probably even more that died in a car accident on the way to the clinic, just the thought of the vaccine killed them it seems! :o
I would of thought risk is very relevant, doing nothing can hold as much risk as doing the wrong thing, as Trump demonstrated, what are they up to now in deaths?

If you can, ask your epidemiologist friend about human immune system accelerated viral mutation in the context of herd immunity and non-vaccination. I'd love to read a response.

Yeah nah, I've stated my point.  Its backed up by quite a few others.  Feel free to come to my work and have my vaccine for me.  They won't know its not me with the mask on and my id with no photo.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 04, 2021, 11:05:08 pm
Yeah nah, I've stated my point.  Its backed up by quite a few others.  Feel free to come to my work and have my vaccine for me.  They won't know its not me with the mask on and my id with no photo.
I fell your uncomfortable answering the question about what might be an acceptable level of evidence.

It's a question designed by Sir Karl Popper to make an debate opponent ponder their own position, especially when an opponent argues they have a position based on evidence without providing evidence. Obviously, when offering a position based on evidence there must be some way to list it, and if evidence sways an opinion there must be some threshold at which further evidence changes that opinion.

Stating more evidence is not evidence at all!

I don't require the answer, it isn't needed, the question is designed to leave you and other observers of the debate pondering what might be viable evidence.

PS; I do not think the poor journalism reporting coincident deaths with vaccinations is backed up by anyone with credibility, as it's an absurdity as I demonstrated in my answer.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 05, 2021, 10:32:21 am
I fell your uncomfortable answering the question about what might be an acceptable level of evidence.

It's a question designed by Sir Karl Popper to make an debate opponent ponder their own position, especially when an opponent argues they have a position based on evidence without providing evidence. Obviously, when offering a position based on evidence there must be some way to list it, and if evidence sways an opinion there must be some threshold at which further evidence changes that opinion.

Stating more evidence is not evidence at all!

I don't require the answer, it isn't needed, the question is designed to leave you and other observers of the debate pondering what might be viable evidence.

PS; I do not think the poor journalism reporting coincident deaths with vaccinations is backed up by anyone with credibility, as it's an absurdity as I demonstrated in my answer.

Not really, but choose to believe what makes you feel better.  This post sums up my position farely well and its an opinion shared by many who are in the direct firing line for early uptake:

Agree.

I am pro-vaccine. My wife works for CSL and somewhat indirectly helps vaccines get made.

BUT.....there is just something about this whole thing that feels like it could come back to bite us.

Everything has been rushed through. They are still working out what Covid is doing long term and they have no idea what the vaccine will do in similar.

Never get the 'new model' as soon as its out. Let people find the bugs in it and get the v2.0 which will be better off.

The advantage we have of maintaining our covid status quo for a period of time that should start seeing any real adverse results is very logical, and absolutely the path we SHOULD be taking as a nation for our own nations safety.

Instead, you are advocating a rushed vaccine to get us open quicker for the benefit of the exact people you lambast for being skeptical about lockdowns (i.e. big businesses).

Once again, look at the bigger picture, its not about a virus anymore nor is it about personal safety.  Else we would see this debate playing out much more publically and not in the halls of parliament house between the likes of Craig Kelly and co.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 05, 2021, 11:04:03 am
Not really, but choose to believe what makes you feel better.  This post sums up my position farely well and its an opinion shared by many who are in the direct firing line for early uptake:
The highlighted term is your problem, I'm asking you about what type of evidence you accept, and you deliver an opinion supported by another opinion.

It's not that hard to understand the difference.

The advantage we have of maintaining our covid status quo for a period of time that should start seeing any real adverse results is very logical, and absolutely the path we SHOULD be taking as a nation for our own nations safety.
You keep talking about advantages of your opinion without listing the risks, it's not balanced.

Instead, you are advocating a rushed vaccine to get us open quicker for the benefit of the exact people you lambast for being skeptical about lockdowns (i.e. big businesses).
You can't conduct this argument with gross generalisations, entities like Murdoch Media or the GOP are not the NIH, CDC, NHS, etc., etc..[/quote]

Once again, look at the bigger picture, its not about a virus anymore nor is it about personal safety.  Else we would see this debate playing out much more publicly and not in the halls of parliament house between the likes of Craig Kelly and co.
I think you confuse the social media opinion and news media opinion with science and research, the bulk of the studies reporting the numbers are not conducted by the companies making the vaccines and certainly not conducted by the political parties. There is not a single scientific report that suggest the vaccine is dangerous, and millions and millions of people have been inoculated already, yet that doesn't seem to be enough evidence, and the long terms effects of COVID potentially being avoided by that inoculation isn't evidence either.

Then what is the evidence you need Thry, it's a simple question?

What you have written suggests you have created a relationship that doesn't really exist, both in analysis of the commentary and subjectively in reading of this debate.

Evidence gazumps opinion, opinions like those offered by Murdoch, GOP, Kelly, Evans, and that horrendously appalling Portugeuse COVID vaccine death correlation quoted in an earlier response.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 05, 2021, 11:16:56 am
The highlighted term is your problem, I'm asking you about what type of evidence you accept, and you deliver an opinion supported by another opinion.

It's not that hard to understand the difference.
You keep talking about advantages of your opinion without listing the risks, it's not balanced.
You can't conduct this argument with gross generalisations, entities like Murdoch Media or the GOP are not the NIH, CDC, NHS, etc., etc..
I think you confuse the social media opinion and news media opinion with science and research, the bulk of the studies reporting the numbers are not conducted by the companies making the vaccines and certainly not conducted by the political parties. There is not a single scientific report that suggest the vaccine is dangerous, and millions and millions of people have been inoculated already, yet that doesn't seem to be enough evidence, and the long terms effects of COVID potentially being avoided by that inoculation isn't evidence either.

Then what is the evidence you need Thry, it's a simple question?

What you have written suggests you have created a relationship that doesn't really exist, both in analysis of the commentary and subjectively in reading of this debate.

Evidence gazumps opinion, opinions like those offered by Murdoch, GOP, Kelly, Evans, and that horrendously appalling Portugeuse COVID vaccine death correlation quoted in an earlier response.

Blah blah blah blah blah.

The end.

LP give it a rest, you are welcome to your opinion, dont attack mine asserting a position of dominance.  its bullcrap.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 05, 2021, 12:46:22 pm
Blah blah blah blah blah.

The end.

LP give it a rest, you are welcome to your opinion, dont attack mine asserting a position of dominance.  its bullcrap.
I'm not attacking your opinion or asserting my dominance over anything, in fact I'm sure I do not know the answers and happy to state that.

I've just posed a simple question about the levels of evidence you accept to form that opinion, I've never even commented on the validity of your opinion but I have effectively stated any opinion without evidence is is potentially worthless. But you provided no evidence so I can comment about he opinion either way. If they can be bothered everyone reading this thread can see that, it's blatantly obvious and nothing to do with bullcrap like that Portuguese story.

You've taken this personally, because I asked a simple question that you either couldn't answer or choose not to answer.

If you stand by your opinions, as someone who works in health like yourself, go to your senior management, the directors of the health organisations you work for, and show them what you have offered in terms of social media commentary. There are two possible outcomes.

Finally, if you want an example of evidence, let's look at the math relating to the Portuguese journalistic disgrace, using Victoria as a model.

There are roughly 6M people in Victoria, each month roughly 3500 people die, rounding to keep the sums easy that's roughly 120 per day, 5 per hour, one death every 12 minutes. If you vaccinate enough people, hundreds of thousands or millions, even just in Victoria it's almost impossible that there won't be a coincident death or illness somewhere somehow. Why? Because for example the Pfizer vaccination protocol is to sit monitored by health staff for 30 minutes after vaccination, vaccinate enough people and someone must die in the moments immediately after vaccination, regardless of the cause!  There have now been more than 10M vaccinations globally, that is the rough evidence hiding in the numbers and no opinion necessary!

I gets even worse for some wanting associate correlated deaths if you start to correct for the fact the bulk of those vaccinations have happened in just a month or two! In extreme you could vaccinate the population of Victoria twice over and 7000 would die in that correlated period! And Victoria's death rate is pretty good by global standards, not that high at all in fact far from the worst, in some regions it is almost double!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 05, 2021, 01:14:54 pm
Im the complete opposite EB, I have every faith in the vaccine and whilst rushed, its a different rushed. The collaboration and sharing of info around the globe by the best scientists on the planet has been like never before. I am told the the number of people used for clinical trials is many times more than the number for normal clinical trials and much more data has been available. Each to their own though, I would happily have the vaccine.
Fair enough GTC, its a personal choice and I understand your logic. I'm perhaps not as trusting as I was in this pandemic due to the
Herd Immunity aspect ie a few can be sacrificed for the benefit of the majority which is fine as long as you or your loved ones are not part of the few. Plus there is this battle/balance of health vs the economy, are the vaccines being rushed through to get the world back to normality and building healthier economies as the priority.
I think in Australia we can perhaps sit back and watch what happens first overseas as we have the virus under control providing we stop entry into the country. But each to their own as you say and I understand why people are keen to get vaccinated...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 05, 2021, 01:20:34 pm
But each to their own as you say and I understand why people are keen to get vaccinated...
Yes it's a freedom of choice.

Vaccination isn't about "me", it's about the people around me, some of which might be those who have no choice and cannot get vaccinated due to frailty or infancy. Like those frail elderly who died in Norway, they were trying to make the very susceptible safer and it didn't work. No different to very very young or premature infants not being suitable for vaccination against Hooping Cough!

I struggle with what I see as "recruitment" media, join us our opinion counts regardless of the evidence, it's properly bullcrap!

I bet not one of the dissenters, if they had a premature infant, would accept a critical care neonatal nurse refusing vaccination for Hooping Cough and still caring for their child! That is the hypocrisy of social media!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on February 05, 2021, 02:02:18 pm
Yes it's a freedom of choice.

Vaccination isn't about "me"...


I see it a little differently, Oh Spotted One. For me it's about You & Me... Us, Community, Team... when I get the Covid jab I'm doing it for Us.

However, I do share the suspicion of some. Although there has been unprecedented global co-operation, there is still huge truck loads of loot available to successful vaccines, and that can bring out the not-too-impressive traits of influential profiteers. But, on this occasion, I'm gonna back accountability and science... besides, a company that 'sharks it', once exposed would be bankrupt in a day.

I do, however, before having a jab, insist that science, manufacturers and governments assure me in writing that I won't suddenly become a cheats.com.au supporter following the jab. This is a not-negotiable. 😈

(I have to laugh at conspiracies re the science of vaccines... especially when the conspiracy theorist is grossly overweight or puffing on a cigarette or alcohol lover... etc.)

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 05, 2021, 02:13:00 pm
(I have to laugh at conspiracies re the science of vaccines... especially when the conspiracy theorist is grossly overweight or puffing on a cigarette or alcohol lover... etc.)

I'll give up smoking tomorrow, I can't give up now it goes down so well after a few tubes, and I'm off to buy a tattslotto ticket and that tatts agent is the local tobacconist, .................. but there is no way in hell I'm getting a jab the odds of getting a badun is too great! ;D

But I'm not gunna wear a seat belt, ................ Pfffffffff ........... seat belts are deaths traps! Do you know how many people die in car accidents wearing seats belts, way more than people who die in car accidents without seat belts on! :o

I'm not getting that COVID jab, .............. but can you book me in for some botox and a breast implant, I wanna be a Double D with a flawless deadpan smile!

FFS "Do not get the COVID jab", what do you think of my new tan, pale people shouldn't use solariums, the risk is too great they don't have my Mediterranean skin! ;)

My new tattoos are saving me heaps of money that I would have previously spent on sunscreen, does the solarium fade tattoos? FFS, do no get the COVID jab, Jenny's friend Shelly works in the office at AstraZeneca's local warehouse, she got the jab and fainted right there on the spot, we haven't seen her for weeks, it's potentially deadly! I hope she's alright we are supposed to be getting liposuction together next month for a transfer of some butt fat to our lips!

>:D  I feel I've seen all this before somewhere!  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on February 05, 2021, 02:45:25 pm
Just a question:

My understanding is that one of the vaccines reduces the symptoms/effects in the person who has received it, but doesn't reduce the transmission towards other people.

Is this correct?  If so, how is it a panacea - it would require the masses to be vaccinated for it to have a lasting effect of reducing the virus? Is this how all vaccines work? If not, please pretend I didn't ask the question!

I have only had the flu shot a couple of times - I've never had the flu.  Partly my constitution, partly luck, partly others having had it?

I'm not sure where I sit on this one - certainly believe in vaccines (polio, measles etc seem to have done pretty well!), certainly not a conspiracy theorist, I trust reputable science, but I don't have the same sense of conviction about this.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 05, 2021, 02:53:52 pm
Just a question:

My understanding is that one of the vaccines reduces the symptoms/effects in the person who has received it, but doesn't reduce the transmission towards other people.

Is this correct?  If so, how is it a panacea - it would require the masses to be vaccinated for it to have a lasting effect of reducing the virus? Is this how all vaccines work? If not, please pretend I didn't ask the question!

I have only had the flu shot a couple of times - I've never had the flu.  Partly my constitution, partly luck, partly others having had it?

I'm not sure where I sit on this one - certainly believe in vaccines (polio, measles etc seem to have done pretty well!), certainly not a conspiracy theorist, I trust reputable science, but I don't have the same sense of conviction about this.
Good questions Dodge.

You are right, more people have to be vaccinated when a vaccine doesn't stop transmission, they can work by eliminating serious symptoms so in effect the worst thing you get is a cold. In effect it's stops people needing hospitalisation and massively reduces the total cost of care, and we could go back to normal pre-COVID lifestyles. Not all vaccines work that way, some stop infection, across the board it's about 50/50.

Yes, your flu experience is partly because of vaccination and partly good luck, if you are vaccinated the type of vaccine might mean as discussed above, that you caught the Influenza virus but had no symptoms. For reference, I believe the Influenza vaccine can actually be a mix of vaccinations in one shot against several Influenza strains that can work either way. There is talk that in the future they may even be able to combine Influenza and COVID-19 into a single shot. Ultimately this feeds back into the what Baggers stated as getting the vaccine "For you and me!" In reality very few people get the flu, it can be very bad for those that do get it, it's infection rate is much much lower than COVID-19, globally it looks like COVID-19 is about 3x more infectious that recent strains of Influenza, I say recent because the rate of Influenza infection varies year to year and strains mutate. The numbers are of course averages.

There is a lot more doubt being propagated in social media about the COVID-19 vaccines, but the vast number of people already vaccinated and the very very low side-effect rates mean it's far more beneficial than leaving your fate to chance. Some might faint like the famous nurse video, but that is just coincidence or vasovagal syncope as in the case of the nurse, a fact that very nurse came out and publicly stated after the video surfaced, but that part of the story has been rejected by the social media narcissists, apparently she has gone from anti-vax hero to conspiratorial insider! btw., Syncope and an allergic response are the main reasons for the waiting period after a vaccine shot.

Depending on the area and country where someone lives, a vaccination might cost about 1/1000th the cost of an average hospitalisation. If we took Donald Trump's treatment as the baseline, then vaccines cost 1/12000th the cost of treatment, which is why his claim that he would make that therapy available to all Americans was fully bogus.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on February 05, 2021, 06:13:26 pm

I'll give up smoking tomorrow, I can't give up now it goes down so well after a few tubes, and I'm off to buy a tattslotto ticket and that tatts agent is the local tobacconist, .................. but there is no way in hell I'm getting a jab the odds of getting a badun is too great! ;D

But I'm not gunna wear a seat belt, ................ Pfffffffff ........... seat belts are deaths traps! Do you know how many people die in car accidents wearing seats belts, way more than people who die in car accidents without seat belts on! :o

I'm not getting that COVID jab, .............. but can you book me in for some botox and a breast implant, I wanna be a Double D with a flawless deadpan smile!

FFS "Do not get the COVID jab", what do you think of my new tan, pale people shouldn't use solariums, the risk is too great they don't have my Mediterranean skin! ;)

My new tattoos are saving me heaps of money that I would have previously spent on sunscreen, does the solarium fade tattoos? FFS, do no get the COVID jab, Jenny's friend Shelly works in the office at AstraZeneca's local warehouse, she got the jab and fainted right there on the spot, we haven't seen her for weeks, it's potentially deadly! I hope she's alright we are supposed to be getting liposuction together next month for a transfer of some butt fat to our lips!

>:D  I feel I've seen all this before somewhere!  ::)

 :))  :))  well you took that observation and really ran with it, Spotted One. Don't think you missed anyone!!  :))  :))
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 05, 2021, 06:52:28 pm
I see it a little differently, Oh Spotted One. For me it's about You & Me... Us, Community, Team... when I get the Covid jab I'm doing it for Us.

Spot on Baggers Ol Boy ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on February 06, 2021, 10:39:11 am
Thankfully, for an aggressively infectious, highly transmissible mutation this 'quarantine absconding' UK virus doesn't seem to be performing to its dreaded expectations.

It probably needs a few more days in Victoria, but so far, in the places it's escaped from, it doesn't seem to have impacted beyond the initial transmission.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on February 06, 2021, 07:42:49 pm
Thanks,  LP
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 07, 2021, 10:09:57 am
Thankfully, for an aggressively infectious, highly transmissible mutation this 'quarantine absconding' UK virus doesn't seem to be performing to its dreaded expectations.

It probably needs a few more days in Victoria, but so far, in the places it's escaped from, it doesn't seem to have impacted beyond the initial transmission.



My bullcrap meter is going off the charts with this pandemic.

My gut tells me either these recent cases were false positives or the virus isn't all its cracked up to be.

Why you ask?  Simple.  Someone who gets sick with a virus that is both dangerous and highly infectious doesn't even infect the people who's house he shares.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then....


Thats not take anything away from covid or its threat but I just have real problems with this whole thing. 

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 07, 2021, 12:17:58 pm
My bullcrap meter is going off the charts with this pandemic.

My gut tells me either these recent cases were false positives or the virus isn't all its cracked up to be.
Believing the virus is somehow benign because of the consequences of vigilance and swift action seems to be the exact wrong conclusion!

It's a deadly attitude to take into the public arena.

Thryleon, you've already publicly stated the precautions you take yourself having moved through quarantined areas, and you've not had COVID-19 which I presume given you work in health is confirmed by regular testing. You've also confirmed that not everyone you work with is so lucky, were they slack in their diligence?

Hopefully you don't get it, but if you do given your employment you are probably in a privileged position to be detected and treated early! The problem isn't the people who get detected early, or get symptoms and get tested early, the problem will be people who get infected, get symptoms and do nothing about it, typically the incapacitated or the dangerous deniers!

Why are the quarantine workers and their close associates different from yourself? I seriously suspect there are no longer any uniformed individuals in these positions.

What do the associates do for a living, are they aware of their housemate's employment?

How has the infected worker been trained regarding quarantine hygiene?

Perhaps they are just lucky, perhaps he is diligent at maintaining good hygiene, we hear the media reporting he is a model employee in this regard, maybe he used masks and anti-viral hand wash diligently, or perhaps they are just lucky and it's so far so good. Time will tell I suppose, but of course those close contacts are front of the line for detection and treatment now, and that is the real point of the story, the correct order of assessing events!

It's obviously not like a computer virus or a Harry Potter spell, you don't just get it with a click of a button or wave of a wand! Infections take time, disease and death follow infection building over time, weeks and months must pass before confidence can grow!

I've an associate in the UK who commutes daily past what was previously a moderately sized farming lot but is now been converted into a tented compound, a compound full of body bags pending burial, the morticians can't keep pace, he begs to differ about the benign nature of COVID-19. Can you give me a comparative virus that affects our type of city in that typical and very public way?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 07, 2021, 03:56:46 pm
Why did we allow 1000 tennis players and their entourage from numerous covid infested countries from all over the world to come here?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 07, 2021, 04:04:45 pm
Misplaced prestige and money
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 07, 2021, 06:11:29 pm
Believing the virus is somehow benign because of the consequences of vigilance and swift action seems to be the exact wrong conclusion!

It's a deadly attitude to take into the public arena.

Thryleon, you've already publicly stated the precautions you take yourself having moved through quarantined areas, and you've not had COVID-19 which I presume given you work in health is confirmed by regular testing. You've also confirmed that not everyone you work with is so lucky, were they slack in their diligence?

Hopefully you don't get it, but if you do given your employment you are probably in a privileged position to be detected and treated early! The problem isn't the people who get detected early, or get symptoms and get tested early, the problem will be people who get infected, get symptoms and do nothing about it, typically the incapacitated or the dangerous deniers!

Why are the quarantine workers and their close associates different from yourself? I seriously suspect there are no longer any uniformed individuals in these positions.

What do the associates do for a living, are they aware of their housemate's employment?

How has the infected worker been trained regarding quarantine hygiene?

Perhaps they are just lucky, perhaps he is diligent at maintaining good hygiene, we hear the media reporting he is a model employee in this regard, maybe he used masks and anti-viral hand wash diligently, or perhaps they are just lucky and it's so far so good. Time will tell I suppose, but of course those close contacts are front of the line for detection and treatment now, and that is the real point of the story, the correct order of assessing events!

It's obviously not like a computer virus or a Harry Potter spell, you don't just get it with a click of a button or wave of a wand! Infections take time, disease and death follow infection building over time, weeks and months must pass before confidence can grow!

I've an associate in the UK who commutes daily past what was previously a moderately sized farming lot but is now been converted into a tented compound, a compound full of body bags pending burial, the morticians can't keep pace, he begs to differ about the benign nature of COVID-19. Can you give me a comparative virus that affects our type of city in that typical and very public way?


Paraphrasing will get you nowhere.

Neither will anecdotal evidence.

My post isn't aimed at making out covid is benign.  If the guard was so diligent at his processes he wouldn't have gotten infected in the first place, and once he did, its reasonable he would have spread it at least somewhere else.

Thats where this falls over.

You can try and change my argument to make it easier to attack but in this regards you've made a mistake.  You have stated you want evidence, then quote some anecdotal so and so told me from London its full of body bags.  Who cares?  They have a different poem over there and my anecdotal evidence from my brother is quite contrary to what you've stated.  Neither disproves the other and neither is relevant to the price of fish and our recent security guard.

Sometimes you should realise that acknowledging this possibility does nothing to belittle covid nor the pandemic but obviously this point is lost on you.

Too busy trying to be right.  Its a position thats hard to stay in 100% of the time.

I could be 100% wrong but I've raised some very valid criticisms and not one person can say to me that the criticisms are invalidated by so and so.

In fact only if he's a false positive would he have failed to transmit it, and if that's the case the recent threat will be gone in 48 hours.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 07, 2021, 06:22:11 pm

If the guard was so diligent at his processes he wouldn't have gotten infected in the first place, and once he did, its reasonable he would have spread it at least somewhere else.


Not according to learned epidemiologists. 

The latest explanations are that the virus is capable of airborne transmission, hence the new measure of blocks of vacant rooms in the quarantine hotels.  There's also no reason why the guard may not have been infectious prior to his symptoms and isolation.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 07, 2021, 06:52:06 pm
Why did we allow 1000 tennis players and their entourage from numerous covid infested countries from all over the world to come here?
Money,  risk vs reward...thats why we cancelled the cricket tour to money poor South Africa but were happy to host the Indians.
Dan wants a bit each way these days and doesnt want the Aus Open Tennis picked up by NSW or Qld.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 07, 2021, 08:24:15 pm
Why did we allow 1000 tennis players and their entourage from numerous covid infested countries from all over the world to come here?
Bloody  disgraceful decision.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 07, 2021, 08:27:48 pm
Money,  risk vs reward...thats why we cancelled the cricket tour to money poor South Africa but were happy to host the Indians.
Dan wants a bit each way these days and doesnt want the Aus Open Tennis picked up by NSW or Qld.
If there is another serious outbreak because of the AO, he is history.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 07, 2021, 08:28:27 pm
Not according to learned epidemiologists. 

The latest explanations are that the virus is capable of airborne transmission, hence the new measure of blocks of vacant rooms in the quarantine hotels.  There's also no reason why the guard may not have been infectious prior to his symptoms and isolation.

Yet still spread it to no one else even those he lives with?

Do you guys not understand how ridiculous this sounds even if it is plausible?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 07, 2021, 09:12:44 pm
My post isn't aimed at making out covid is benign. If the guard was so diligent at his processes he wouldn't have gotten infected in the first place, and once he did, its reasonable he would have spread it at least somewhere else.
So by extension, you are confirming your work associates in the health sector who suffered COVID weren't diligent, and you do think your good fortune to date is due to your own diligence and nothing to do with good luck.

But you stated your preferred solution was to lockdown for 2 years and not accept the vaccine. If your trained associates working in the health sector are not diligent enough to make it through 1 year, what hope the rest over 2 or more years?

https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=4922.msg323009#msg323009
Quote from: Thry
Why dont we simply keep our country COVID free for 2 years, and then get some meaningful data about what a covid vaccine means for the nations that have vaccinated, rather than become a guinea pig like the rest?
This didn't help NZ, and it was community transmitted virus free!

"The UK" or "South African" strain of SARS-CoV-2 is just a mutation that can occur anytime in any location, it doesn't need to come here at all on visitors or returning citizens, because SARS-CoV-2 is already here. It's a misnomer to think you can stop it by closing the borders, in a community where SARS-CoV-2 is becoming endemic in the absence of action like a vaccine it's just a matter of time! ;)

I doubt anybody would think the body bags in London, or anywhere for that matter, is anecdotal evidence! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 07, 2021, 09:25:00 pm
If there is another serious outbreak because of the AO, he is history.
Looking like he might have got lucky with the latest outbreak and no new cases despite all the contact
that was assumed. Dan has gone from lockdown to political mode and is looking to avoid lockdowns
to win some votes. Like others I would have passed on the Tennis if I was Dan given the worldwide exposure Tennis players
and their entourage's have. Australia doesnt need to rely on vaccines if you dont let anyone in especially slack arse spoilt brat tennis players who think they are special and dont need to follow rules.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 07, 2021, 09:27:47 pm
Yet still spread it to no one else even those he lives with?

Do you guys not understand how ridiculous this sounds even if it is plausible?
I've already addressed this in my earlier post, you assert he wasn't diligent but it's completely feasible the worker is diligent and that his good practises have stopped further transmission, and your claim is contradictory to the health officials who report the worker was in fact very diligent, a model employee, but because it doesn't suit your vaccine politics you assert he wasn't diligent because he caught it, that is a contradiction and logical absurdity.

Don't slight the worker to push your cause, boost your cause with evidence, will you ever present some?

Sorry Thry, but from the outside it looks to me like the less evidence there is for a conspiracy, the better you think the conspiracy is!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 07, 2021, 09:30:26 pm
FWIW, to date 47M people have been vaccinated, and in countries where the vaccination has proceeded at full speed like Israel, where they have vaccinated almost 50% of the population, already the infection and death rate is plummeting relative to the rest of the world.

That is some mighty evidence right there, and no over the top social media claims of deadly side-effects or allergic reactions, and no need for FB anarchists or Instagram tans!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 07, 2021, 09:39:39 pm
Looking like he might have got lucky with the latest outbreak and no new cases despite all the contact
that was assumed. Dan has gone from lockdown to political mode and is looking to avoid lockdowns
to win some votes. Like others I would have passed on the Tennis if I was Dan given the worldwide exposure Tennis players
and their entourage's have. Australia doesnt need to rely on vaccines if you dont let anyone in especially slack arse spoilt brat tennis players who think they are special and dont need to follow rules.

100%
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 07, 2021, 09:49:00 pm
I've already addressed this in my earlier post, you assert he wasn't diligent but it's completely feasible the worker is diligent and that his good practises have stopped further transmission, and your claim is contradictory to the health officials who report the worker was in fact very diligent, a model employee, but because it doesn't suit your vaccine politics you assert he wasn't diligent because he caught it, that is a contradiction and logical absurdity.

Don't slight the worker to push your cause, boost your cause with evidence, will you ever present some?

Sorry Thry, but from the outside it looks to me like the less evidence there is for a conspiracy, the better you think the conspiracy is!
There are two valid reasons why Thry has a point about waiting and watching....the safety of the vaccine and unknown side effects as well as the effectiveness on a world scale.
Id rather see what happens when two nations who are 70-90% fully vaccinated allow travel and contact between their citizens.
What precautions do they still need to take, is quarantine still neccessary, what testing is still required, what new strains may have been created..in other words what can we learn before we jump in to vaccination and assume its all ok and open the doors.
If we keep the doors shut and look and learn we may save lives and be better placed, this idea we get the majority vaccinated and selling the idea to the public its all fixed is concerning IMO.
eg We have friends who love cruise ships and think once they are vaccinated its back on the boat, let the good times roll again
and they are safe....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 07, 2021, 09:50:43 pm
... and in front of what crowds?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 07, 2021, 10:20:13 pm
I've already addressed this in my earlier post, you assert he wasn't diligent but it's completely feasible the worker is diligent and that his good practises have stopped further transmission, and your claim is contradictory to the health officials who report the worker was in fact very diligent, a model employee, but because it doesn't suit your vaccine politics you assert he wasn't diligent because he caught it, that is a contradiction and logical absurdity.

Don't slight the worker to push your cause, boost your cause with evidence, will you ever present some?

Sorry Thry, but from the outside it looks to me like the less evidence there is for a conspiracy, the better you think the conspiracy is!
I've already addressed this in my earlier post, you assert he wasn't diligent but it's completely feasible the worker is diligent and that his good practises have stopped further transmission, and your claim is contradictory to the health officials who report the worker was in fact very diligent, a model employee, but because it doesn't suit your vaccine politics you assert he wasn't diligent because he caught it, that is a contradiction and logical absurdity.

Don't slight the worker to push your cause, boost your cause with evidence, will you ever present some?

Sorry Thry, but from the outside it looks to me like the less evidence there is for a conspiracy, the better you think the conspiracy is!

Yes, you are right.  God how could I have been so stupid to ever doubt you lp.

You truly know everything there is to know about this.

You should lead us all through this, you have all the answers.

I dont know if you've realized but the bigger and more answers you write, the less im reading.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on February 07, 2021, 11:32:04 pm
Just when you thought it was safe to go to Wollongong... :(

Thought I'd take a trip 'back home' for a week.
Motels booked, car booked in for a pre-travel service.

Tonight I hear that there's a positive case...and alerts are out for several venues in the Gong.
NSW Health are reacting in a way that suggests that they're not entirely confident with this case and are urging testing and isolation.

I guess its a problem many have encountered over the course of the last 12 months.

This person had been in quarantine and has tested positive on Day 16!! ...after being released on day 14.
Now hopefully their infectious period is well and truly over and there wont be further cases.
Holidays can wait, but I have many friends and family who are now a concern.

It just shows that with this virus...if you think you have a handle on it....you don't really.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 07, 2021, 11:42:01 pm
I dont know if you've realized but the bigger and more answers you write, the less im reading.
As I stated my position to Flyboy77 once before, when he was posting conspiratorial social media founded rubbish, there is no chance I'll ever let that sort of thing slip by, because it's too dangerous to innocent people!

At least I've made my position clear and stand by it, arguing using whatever facts are available, not just opinion supported by opinion. I mean this whole argy-bargy started because I asked what evidence you would accept, I didn't even push that much to ask you what evidence you have to support your claims, I don't need to!

You are painting yourself @Thryleon‍, I've no need to paint or spin anything!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 07, 2021, 11:52:45 pm
There are two valid reasons why Thry has a point about waiting and watching....the safety of the vaccine and unknown side effects as well as the effectiveness on a world scale.
I don't question that @ElwoodBlues1‍, as I stated to @Thryleon‍ getting vaccinated is a personal choice.

I don't think there is any evidence that the vaccines are unsafe, there may be a lot of social media opinion, Instagram and Facebook conspiratorial suspicions, but no reputable evidence that I can find that the vaccines aren't safe, not a skerrick.

Now almost 50M vaccine shots have been issued globally, Israel started almost 2 months ago and that is 5M people or about 50% of it's population, do you think that is not enough time or people to be building a case for or against! For me that is good enough evidence that the vaccine is safe, the reports are that where those vaccines are issued the infection and death rates are falling dramatically, for Thryleon it isn't enough. He wants more time, but more time comes at a risk also it isn't a free hit, do you think that risk of delay is a price worth paying? So I've asked a very simple question, what evidence does he require to accept that the vaccine is safe, in effect he answered nothing can be offered that can convince him! It's all there in the record of posts, or should I say isn't there in the record!

 Can you answer that same question, what evidence do you require, when will you believe the vaccines are safe?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on February 08, 2021, 01:07:20 am
Read yesterday that the Germans are now considering use of the Russian vaccine (Sputnik)? May be due to supply problems for other vaccines in Europe.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on February 08, 2021, 06:55:05 am
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis/calling-off-the-open-would-have-been-catastrophic-tiley-says-20210207-p570ct.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 08, 2021, 08:04:35 am
Read yesterday that the Germans are now considering use of the Russian vaccine (Sputnik)? May be due to supply problems for other vaccines in Europe.
It could be about supply, there is also a lot of politics and social management happening and this might be more about economics than anything else. Under EU rules EU countries have an obligation to trade with other EU nations, it might just be Russia using it's EU position to derive income via the vaccine. It might be purchased by Germany and never used, but that clears Germany of it's EU obligation, and would perhaps allow Germany to donate the vaccine as part of it's other international obligations.

There are not many published papers available regarding the Russian vaccine, it's a closed shop, I presume to get to the point of purchase somebody reputable must be doing a formal approval somewhere.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on February 08, 2021, 08:37:35 am
I don't question that @ElwoodBlues1‍, as I stated to @Thryleon‍ getting vaccinated is a personal choice.

I don't think there is any evidence that the vaccines are unsafe, there may be a lot of social media opinion, Instagram and Facebook conspiratorial suspicions, but no reputable evidence that I can find that the vaccines aren't safe, not a skerrick.

Now almost 50M vaccine shots have been issued globally, Israel started almost 2 months ago and that is 5M people or about 50% of it's population, do you think that is not enough time or people to be building a case for or against! For me that is good enough evidence that the vaccine is safe, the reports are where those vaccines are issued the infection and death rates are falling dramatically, for Thryleon it isn't enough. He wants more time, but more time comes at a risk also, do you think that risk of delay is a price worth paying? So I've asked a very simple question, what evidence does he require to accept that the vaccine is safe, in effect he answered nothing can be offered that can convince him! It's all there in the record of posts, or should I say isn't there in the record!

 Can you answer that same question, what evidence do you require, when will you believe the vaccines are safe?

I don't think any vaccine, ever, has been 100% safe. There are always individuals, as few as they may be, who will have an adverse reaction. I vividly recall those recruit school days at HMAS Cerberus when all us newbies had to line up for our inoculations. And the lines consisted of about 200 or so young blokes, left arms bare, ready for the jabs. There was always three or four 'fainters' and the odd one who'd end up in sick bay for a few days. And we were given 3 shots at the same time, Yellow Fever, one I've forgotten and TB. I remember feeling a little crook for a day or two. Every now and then you'd hear of a bloke who had such a bad reaction he was discharged out of the Navy into a public hospital for special care.

It's not hard to see why so many folks are still skeptical of inoculations. We live in a world where we spend half our time sorting bullshizen information from truth. Plus we have so many different psychological types with their attitudes to science... from paranoid mistrust to blind faith. Likewise, governments.

Fortunately, as mentioned previously, we do have choice. Personally, I will have my shot when available for a variety of reasons as mentioned previously. Plus, my confidence is science is somewhat boosted by the effectiveness of my own experiences in PTSD treatments etc.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 08, 2021, 09:29:43 am
Yet still spread it to no one else even those he lives with?

Do you guys not understand how ridiculous this sounds even if it is plausible?

Even when it comes from the head of the international quarantine organisation?

Symptom and infection variability are features of COVID - according to the scientific literature.

For example, the latest quarantine worker to test positive has a very low viral load and is unlikely to be infectious.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 08, 2021, 09:40:57 am
I don't think any vaccine, ever, has been 100% safe.

A young woman I worked with had her daughter vaccinated against polio but it resulted in the little girl contracting a mild form of polio.  As a result, the little girl had limited use of her legs and couldn’t walk unaided.  It was heartbreaking, particularly when the father pissed off and the young woman had to give up her job to care for her daughter.

Of course, the probability of that happening is minuscule but there is always a risk.

I will be getting my COVID vaccination as soon as it’s available.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 08, 2021, 09:52:58 am
I don't think any vaccine, ever, has been 100% safe.
100% correct, like eating nuts or eggs, or driving a car.

Actually that is wrong, for in most cases a vaccine is far far safer than driving a car or eating nuts.

There was always three or four 'fainters' and the odd one who'd end up in sick bay for a few days. And we were given 3 shots at the same time, Yellow Fever, one I've forgotten and TB. I remember feeling a little crook for a day or two. Every now and then you'd hear of a bloke who had such a bad reaction he was discharged out of the Navy into a public hospital for special care.
True, but if you get zero reaction the vaccine probably isn't do anything beneficial, the reaction is the sign it is working. Of course a severe reaction is a problem as already mentioned.

Of course if the vaccines were as bad as the disease as some try to make out, you wouldn't be getting a handful of anecdotal cases, out of approximately 50M vaccinations you'd be getting tens of thousands of severe reactions. Not something anyone can hide!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 08, 2021, 10:24:21 am
For example, the latest quarantine worker to test positive has a very low viral load and is unlikely to be infectious.
Yes it's quite interesting, I read an article recently that also raised issues with the validity of the 14 day quarantine when operating rolling quarantine. People moving in or out of quarantine at different stages from the same location. The call was for quarantine in batches, but to do that effectively you need a separate isolated facility for each day of arrivals on a first in / first out basis. Is there anywhere in the world operating quarantine this way?

I did read that specific hotel floors are now being designated, the State Government is spending $M on altering ducting and airflow in these hotels, or shutting down whole floors when they share some circulation.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 08, 2021, 10:32:53 am
Even when it comes from the head of the international quarantine organisation?

Symptom and infection variability are features of COVID - according to the scientific literature.

For example, the latest quarantine worker to test positive has a very low viral load and is unlikely to be infectious.

Especially when it comes from the head of a quarantine organisation.

Quote
When are viral load and viral shedding the highest?

The temporal patterns of viral shedding vary among different infections. The consensus for COVID-19 is that the viral load and viral shedding are highest on early days of the infection, peaking on or before symptoms onset. One study estimated that 44% of transmission could occur before the first symptoms show up. Another study monitored viral shedding over the course of disease progression and found that viral shedding drops 5 days after symptoms onset and stops after day 10.

COVID-19’s temporal shedding profile is in stark contrast to SARS. Viral shedding for COVID-19 peaks much earlier, and at much higher levels. Unfortunately, heaving shedding early in infection makes it harder to contain the virus, which likely contribute to COVID-19’s rapid spread.

For a virus that is both highly transmissable, and virulent, to the point where we are quaranting at all, the fact that someone in that setting tests positive (after becoming symptomatic), and isn't highly contagious should ring some massive alarm bells as far as I am concerned.

Look, I am no tin foil hat wearer nor anti vaxer despite @LP 's greatest attempts to paint me as one, and yet this sounds and reads like absolute bollocks.

@LP you really need to stop paraphrasing, and inferring meaning into my comments, and I would appreciate having this forum to ask these questions, rather than the real world where the repercussions regarding all of this are a little more permanent.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 08, 2021, 11:56:42 am
For a virus that is both highly transmissable, and virulent, to the point where we are quaranting at all, the fact that someone in that setting tests positive (after becoming symptomatic), and isn't highly contagious should ring some massive alarm bells as far as I am concerned.
@Thryleon‍  How come you haven't caught COVID-19, from your work description you are one step away from the deep end?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 08, 2021, 11:58:19 am
@Thryleon‍  How come you haven't caught COVID-19, from your work description you are one step away from the deep end?

@LP
I would appreciate having this forum to ask questions and not be on trial thankyou.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 08, 2021, 12:01:10 pm
@LP
I would appreciate having this forum to ask questions and not be on trial thankyou.
 @Thryleon‍  You mentioned your workplace exposure, it's sounds comparable to the quarantine workers if not even higher risk, why not relate that experience?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 08, 2021, 12:06:10 pm
Nobody's posts or communications, no matter how trivial the content, forum or medium, are entitled to be free of analysis, rebuttal or responsibility.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 08, 2021, 12:51:25 pm
@Thryleon‍  You mentioned your workplace exposure, it's sounds comparable to the quarantine workers if not even higher risk, why not relate that experience?

Why should I answer this question, when you have already formed an opinion on your answer, with no respect to my experience nor why I am asking the question?  Seriously LP, this is more than just someone asserting an opinion here, and pretending to be right or wrong, and like I said before, I am not on trial, I am not a COVID denier, nor do I think that the pandemic is crap, but there are inconsistencies arising that just seem like logical fallousy and I am doing my best to understand them (no thanks to your opinionated response of "hes effectively an anti vaxxer and no amount of evidence will convince him otherwise", which is something you stated about me, and not something I stated about myself, which I find abhorrent).

So, I will provide a point to ponder here and answer you with an example of my experience (yes, its been a long 12 months), and rather than simply attack what is going to be said, let it sink in for a moment, and consider this from a very balanced and logical perspective, free from your previous biases and assertions.

In 1 circumstance, we had a colleague test positive.  That colleague took the virus home and infected the 5 people they live with, resulting in a small cluster forming in Heidelberg (you guys will remember that one it happened towards the end of our second lock down).  The source of that infection was a patient, that became covid positive post admission, and anyone who went into that ward was required to be tested.  It seemed relatively straight forward.  If it made its way through the PPE procedures, it spread to others as a virus does.  Fair enough too right?  Anyone who was in contact with said person in the workplace, did so whilst taking the appropriate precautions, and seem to have dodged this infection more by good luck as well as precaution than design.  This colleague consequently DID infect the 5 people they live with, and all family members tested positive.  This is inline with what my expectations of this virus, and pandemic do, and that makes sense.

Now, we have someone from hotel quarantine become covid positive.  They went out, with members of their family and people of their household, and despite this being a more virulent, and infections strain, somehow didnt manage to transmit to their family and household.  This is not in keeping with what my expectations of this pandemic and virus are all about.

I am questioning this, because, I seek to understand, what changes here.  Sure, the PPE preparation etc prevents spread to other members of public/workplace (because frankly, you dont get on the good foot and do the bad thing with everyone you work with), but it stands to reason, that the people you share living quarters, and meals with, are more likely to become covid positive living in the same place as someone else is COVID positive particularly if no one is aware that said person is actually covid positive.

Rather than attack that point, contemplate it.  You aren't rebutting anything here, you have simply attacked the poster, for asking the questions (and jumped straight on the offensive), and then instead of seeking to understand the trepidation they might have, simply asserted that there should be no trepidation.  THAT is where I am having some serious issues with you in this topic, and this is why when you state the following:

Nobody's posts or communications, no matter how trivial the content, forum or medium, are entitled to be free of analysis, rebuttal or responsibility.

You actually are failing to analyse, understand or rebutt, you are simply trying to paint someone as something they arent, and attack them for having an opinion that questions the status quo.

last I checked, we should welcome and question opposing ideas but I dont think what you are doing here is that, instead you are shutting down what i am saying with what I would call a pseudo scientific analysis of data.  Note, I am not seeking to silence anyone with respect to this pandemic, or vaccine, or anything.  I am simply asking some questions surrounding what I am seeing is some inconsistencies with how this pandemic is playing out.  Even so, I am unlikely to go on a tirade, or join a protest in the city, or even try to convince people what to do, but I do have some real questions about these inconsistencies, and they come having had some contact with a few different people from a few different walks of life who all agree that there are some rather uncomfortable versions of the truth out there, that only become truth by asserting they are the truth ignoring bits of information along the way.  Isnt that what we call a bias?


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 08, 2021, 01:11:31 pm
@Thryleon‍  So many generalisations, what would the differences between that example Heidelberg case and the Quarantine workers case?

That example you provide isn't what I asked, I asked why you haven't caught COVID-19 based on what you have described as your workplace, what do you think is the reason?

It's just as valid for me to ask that question, as it is for you to compare or question why Heidelberg spread while Quarantine didn't.

You can try to paint these questions as personal but they are far far from it, they are investigative, I'm sorry it makes you uncomfortable. You are not the only one permitted to pose a question!

Ask all the questions you like, post all the answers you like, but don't spin whenever what you post is questioned by some 3rd party.

The act of posting invites analysis!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 08, 2021, 04:16:50 pm
So given this latest AO positive test has come from nothing.

Is it safe to assume it was a false positive?


Are we at the stage where we realise that 1 positive covid case does not mean we need to send the city into lockdown? The chances of a false positive are more likely than an actual positive nowadays,

Are we jumping at shadows a bit at the moment?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 08, 2021, 04:45:44 pm
So given this latest AO positive test has come from nothing.

Is it safe to assume it was a false positive?

Are we at the stage where we realise that 1 positive covid case does not mean we need to send the city into lockdown? The chances of a false positive are more likely than an actual positive nowadays,

Are we jumping at shadows a bit at the moment?
Yes @kruddler all good points, but have they given up confirming the source?

I think controlling the virus with diligence buys enough time not to have to over-react, but it still isn't a green light to resume post-COVID normal. The current problem seems to be that the recent cases show a degree of latency in virulence.

I'm not sure what the protocol is for reporting, do they report before they have confirmation, of course if they have identified a strain then it won't be a false positive. I gather this has changed greatly since the 1st wave, because the test result lead-time has plummeted.

I think from reporting they already moved past the false positive stage, as @DJC mentioned I believe they have already assessed viral load in the latest case, so it can't be a false positive.

I'm not sure what to make of a virus that is somewhat benign in so many but lethal in others, it's like a game of Russian Roulette!

PS; I had to laugh this morning, very early in the day after the latest case hit the news a radio station described Off Ya Tree as a florist!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 08, 2021, 11:17:16 pm
Yes it's quite interesting, I read an article recently that also raised issues with the validity of the 14 day quarantine when operating rolling quarantine. People moving in or out of quarantine at different stages from the same location. The call was for quarantine in batches, but to do that effectively you need a separate isolated facility for each day of arrivals on a first in / first out basis. Is there anywhere in the world operating quarantine this way?

I did read that specific hotel floors are now being designated, the State Government is spending $M on altering ducting and airflow in these hotels, or shutting down whole floors when they share some circulation.

The latest NSW case tested positive two days after completing 14 days quarantine.  It seems that infection may have occurred during quarantine ... or has the virus mutated again?

The problem is that we are playing catch up, but will the punters put up with measures to get ahead of the game?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 08, 2021, 11:26:14 pm
Especially when it comes from the head of a quarantine organisation.

I should have been clearer.  The person speaking on the wireless this morning is not involved in COVID quarantine.  She is a research scientist and an expert in quarantine and is the head of the international organisation of quarantine scientists.  I suspect that she knows just a tad more about quarantine than you and I :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 10, 2021, 12:28:26 pm
Two more cases of Covid via quarantine again, interesting part is the claim it was spread by use of a nebuliser.....nebuliser's and suction are banned in Victoria and I presume the rest of Australia because of transmission risks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 10, 2021, 12:48:55 pm
Two more cases of Covid via quarantine again, interesting part is the claim it was spread by use of a nebuliser.....nebuliser's and suction are banned in Victoria and I presume the rest of Australia because of transmission risks.
Yes, I wonder how the engineers deal with maintaining the required positive / negative pressures, it's obviously not as a simple as the media and people think.

I worry about the air-conditioning systems used in these big buildings / hotels, they are often have a common exchange of air connected to some roof space cooling tower, and Melbourne has long been a geographical hotspot for Legionnaire's. It's one of the big reasons I think the return to the office push is way too premature, there will be some building owner somewhere who is leaving the responsibility of getting things right up to someone else.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 10, 2021, 02:00:07 pm
Two more cases of Covid via quarantine again, interesting part is the claim it was spread by use of a nebuliser.....nebuliser's and suction are banned in Victoria and I presume the rest of Australia because of transmission risks.
Dan said there was no reason for the person not to be using it in his presser.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 10, 2021, 02:03:10 pm
Dan said there was no reason for the person not to be using it in his presser.
Best keep in mind there may be some ambiguity in regards to the term "nebuliser", some may think of an asthma inhaler or the type of nebuliser used to administer medicines to infants, while others would be thinking about a device that is used in conjunction with a ventilator. I think the media are happy to play up on that difference in meaning / understanding.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 10, 2021, 02:59:37 pm
Best keep in mind there may be some ambiguity in regards to the term "nebuliser", some may think of an asthma inhaler or the type of nebuliser used to administer medicines to infants, while others would be thinking about a device that is used in conjunction with a ventilator. I think the media are happy to play up on that difference in meaning / understanding.
Yep there is the personal variety and the ambulance variety used with intubation   .......I presume then its the personal variety used for asthma etc thats has caused the problem as like I said its been banned for use by Paramedics, probably cost lives too, I know the Para's were upset when it was banned as its a life saver.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on February 10, 2021, 04:15:50 pm
Most chronic asthmatics have on hand a portable asthma pump. Air is pumped via a plastic tube to the nebuliser which is attached to a plastic face mask. The mixture of air and Ventolin is then breathed in.  The problem from a Covid scenario is that the face mask has two cutaway sections allowing the person to inhale and exhale.  I have seen the mixture exhaled to a distance of a metre or a little more .
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 12, 2021, 07:52:39 am
I have to wonder if the quietness of this thread is reality sinking in!

Has the early crow been eaten?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 12, 2021, 07:59:54 am
Contact tracing failing again. Lockdown 3.0 here we come.
When Dan announces it he should announce his resignation as well.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 12, 2021, 08:04:26 am
Contact tracing failing again. Lockdown 3.0 here we come.
When Dan announces it he should announce his resignation as well.
Is it failing, I'm not sure if the detections are because of it failing or because of it working?

I think what has failed are the calls that restrictions were over the top, and worse still the deniers circulating public dissention, if things get too loose it may well be the case the current restrictions weren't enough!

I really do not get the inability of the public to learn from the past, and in this case the memories and lessons aren't even a year old and they have evaporated from the public consciousness.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 12, 2021, 08:25:17 am
The government haven't learned from their mistakes.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on February 12, 2021, 08:25:57 am
So,  returned travellers are Dan's fault as well?   What did you want him to do,  isolate them in a stage IIII bio hazard lab?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 12, 2021, 08:31:01 am
Less than 50% of contacts are being traced within 48 hours. The national standard in 95%.

I told you guys a month or so ago that Adelaide's contact tracing system is miles ahead of ours. Every business has the same QR system, they're all linked.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on February 12, 2021, 09:21:57 am
I'll give you that one,  the Covid app is a con job, they shouldn't have been paid.   Worthless.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on February 12, 2021, 09:52:36 am
Less than 50% of contacts are being traced within 48 hours. The national standard in 95%.

I told you guys a month or so ago that Adelaide's contact tracing system is miles ahead of ours. Every business has the same QR system, they're all linked.

All the signs were there that the state government and admin were caught out badly with a very poor tracing/tracking system when the covid crisis started last year. From my experiences in the system development business good solutions/software can take years to be developed and perfected and not just a few months, especially in complex situations. Victoria is still scrambling to sort this mess out and public expectations have not been set properly - more of an ass-covering bullcrap narrative being peddled. Look back at what happened with Myki, the Police system etc. - plenty of other examples.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 12, 2021, 10:30:05 am
Less than 50% of contacts are being traced within 48 hours. The national standard in 95%.

I told you guys a month or so ago that Adelaide's contact tracing system is miles ahead of ours. Every business has the same QR system, they're all linked.
That stat is a function of the number of cases though over the population you have to survey, isn't it?

I suspect that makes the national average a bit bogus, and I also believe there is no universal reporting standard. I think we discuss this months ago when we found out NSW was shipping infected travellers to Vic and not counting those infections in NSW. Three wise monkeys.

I'm not sure the QR code really helps unless you are certain that 100% of people use it, what you are really reporting is the number of people who used the QR code that you can trace. I was at a shopping centre two days ago, watching people entering Officeworks, I only saw one person use the QR code out of about 20 or so that entered the store, and some of that 20 were parents and children so perhaps 30 or more entered.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 12, 2021, 10:42:33 am
Less than 50% of contacts are being traced within 48 hours. The national standard in 95%.

I told you guys a month or so ago that Adelaide's contact tracing system is miles ahead of ours. Every business has the same QR system, they're all linked.
Also, not sure if this is accurate but I was told NSW returned traveler rate is 5 times ours and they are doing okish.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 12, 2021, 10:43:59 am
That stat is a function of the number of cases though over the population you have to survey, isn't it?

I suspect that makes the national average a bit bogus, and I also believe there is no universal reporting standard. I think we discuss this months ago when we found out NSW was shipping infected travellers to Vic and not counting those infections in NSW. Three wise monkeys.

I'm not sure the QR code really helps unless you are certain that 100% of people use it, what you are really reporting is the number of people who used the QR code that you can trace. I was at a shopping centre two days ago, watching people entering Officeworks, I only saw one person use the QR code out of about 20 or so that entered the store, and some of that 20 were parents and children so perhaps 30 or more entered.
What do you mean? No QR code, no entry, anywhere, period. Of course it will work.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 12, 2021, 10:47:55 am
What do you mean? No QR code, no entry, anywhere, period. Of course it will work.
Like compulsory masks in public places, ask Karen and Corey.

I had to laugh watching highlights of the tennis on the news last night, in the report background is the crowd walking the apron, perhaps 1 in 5 no mask. Nobody enforcing the rules, yet people handing out free sunscreen in case you get burnt at 7pm!

What percentage of the older people floating around shopping centres even own or carry a modern QR code capable mobile with them?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 12, 2021, 11:24:55 am
Like compulsory masks in public places, ask Karen and Corey.

I had to laugh watching highlights of the tennis on the news last night, in the report background is the crowd walking the apron, perhaps 1 in 5 no mask. Nobody enforcing the rules, yet people handing out free sunscreen in case you get burnt at 7pm!

What percentage of the older people floating around shopping centres even own or carry a modern QR code capable mobile with them?


I do LP  ;)

The VicGov QR app is quick and easy to use and the staff at the venues I frequent on the Bellarine insist on everyone signing in by QR or manually.

Earlier this week I had a great feed of mussels at a very popular and picturesque cafe where you have to order at the bar; no mask, no service.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 12, 2021, 11:41:16 am
That stat is a function of the number of cases though over the population you have to survey, isn't it?

I suspect that makes the national average a bit bogus, and I also believe there is no universal reporting standard. I think we discuss this months ago when we found out NSW was shipping infected travellers to Vic and not counting those infections in NSW. Three wise monkeys.

I'm not sure the QR code really helps unless you are certain that 100% of people use it, what you are really reporting is the number of people who used the QR code that you can trace. I was at a shopping centre two days ago, watching people entering Officeworks, I only saw one person use the QR code out of about 20 or so that entered the store, and some of that 20 were parents and children so perhaps 30 or more entered.

Why can't you just admit the other states have handled this better than us or do you think they're hiding the bodies? I'm a proud Victorian too but seriously. I went to Adelaide over Christmas and when you use their QR system for the first time it messages your phone and you confirm that it's you. It's a better system, is it full proof? Of course not but it's miles ahead of what we have here. NSW is supposed to be similar and they have been able to contain outbreaks with no major lockdowns and they have done all the heavy loading with returned travellers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 12, 2021, 11:58:36 am
Why can't you just admit the other states have handled this better than us or do you think they're hiding the bodies? I'm a proud Victorian too but seriously.
I'm not claiming they are better or worse.

I'm very cynical of The National Standard 95% figure because it is a target number not what has been achieved. The National Standard is to achieve 95% Contact Tracing, whatever that means, think about this in relation to how and when states report.

The best I can find in official reports is 85% tracing for a very limited number of cases over a short period of time, and that was for Canberra. So given 85% contact tracing is the best ever reported in Australia so far how does the country average 95%? Well it doesn't, because 95% is the target for performance not what has been achieved. In fairness, these figures lag about a month behind, but even so it's not going to be close to 95%, that number is an air swing.

Because you have reported the target value as an average, I suspect the source you got that from has also understated the achieved percentage as well, for political purposes. Otherwise why misquote the target as the average?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 12, 2021, 12:04:36 pm
Well we're at about 40% which is an epic fail by any measure.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 12, 2021, 12:06:38 pm
Covid Death Toll

Victoria: 820
NSW: 54
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 12, 2021, 12:10:30 pm
Well we're at about 40% which is an epic fail by any measure.
I'm using the Federal Health and Vic Health website for that data, it's not easy to find lots of fragments, I suppose they don't want it to be easy to avoid litigation in case they publish a wrong figure. What site does your data come from, who reports 40%?
Quote
Data for the week to 2 February 2021
Metric
Status to report*
1. Percentage of new positive cases contacted within 24 hours of DHHS being notified of positive result.
100% - 6 of 6 new positive cases contacted

2. Percentage of new positive cases interviewed within 24 hours of DHHS being notified of positive result.
100% - 6 of 6 new positive cases interviewed

3. Percentage of known contacts notified within 48 hours of DHHS being notified of positive result.
100% - 23 of 23 known contacts notified
*Data is the average result for cases notified between Wednesday 27 January to Tuesday 2 February 2021.
 
Data for the week to 26 January 2021
Metric
Status to report*

1. Percentage of new positive cases contacted within 24 hours of DHHS being notified of positive result.
100% - 15 of 15 new positive cases contacted

2. Percentage of new positive cases interviewed within 24 hours of DHHS being notified of positive result.
100% - 15 of 15 new positive cases interviewed

3. Percentage of known contacts notified within 48 hours of DHHS being notified of positive result.
100% - 24 of 24 known contact notified

*Data is the average result for cases notified between Wednesday 20 January to Tuesday 26 January 2021.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 12, 2021, 12:10:43 pm
I'd be looking at the testing as much as the app or contact tracing......
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 12, 2021, 12:14:02 pm
The big question is really, 40% or 100% of what?

It changes with politics and perspective!

Dan is Labour, Feds are Liberal, why would they both report 100% tracing over the last fortnight?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 12, 2021, 12:14:17 pm
And I don't have the slightest doubt that many many thousands DON'T have mobiles at all or phones capable of handling QR.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 12, 2021, 12:15:23 pm
I'd be looking at the testing as much as the app or contact tracing......
If you have near zero infections, and yet you test thousands and thousands, the figures are going to look great! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on February 12, 2021, 12:16:26 pm
I'd be looking at the testing as much as the app or contact tracing......


The whole end to end system including including people, processes and technology needs to be properly integrated in order to work effectively and efficiently. I seriously doubt that this has successfully been achieved as yet.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 12, 2021, 12:17:44 pm
And I don't have the slightest doubt that many many thousands DON'T have mobiles at all or phones capable of handling QR. 
In the area near where I work, the major shopping centre and one of the previous centres of a hotspot, the elderly that proliferate the centre for free air-conditioning on hot days do not even trust credit cards!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 12, 2021, 12:19:11 pm
They had a crisis meeting last night because contact tracers said on Tuesday they were only able to trace 30 something of 70 something. I can't recall the actual figure but it is about 40% and it's the reason why you won't be allowed to leave your house tomorrow.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 12, 2021, 12:21:10 pm
The only thing delaying the announcement is the tennis. How will people react if the tennis goes ahead and we're in lockdown?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 12, 2021, 12:22:31 pm
They had a crisis meeting last night because contact tracers said on Tuesday they were only able to trace 30 something of 70 something. I can't recall the actual figure but it is about 40% and it's the reason why you won't be allowed to leave your house tomorrow.

The cynic in me states that we wont lock down during the Aus open.

Imagine the pandemonium that would follow if we did.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 12, 2021, 12:24:41 pm
They had a crisis meeting last night because contact tracers said on Tuesday they were only able to trace 30 something of 70 something. I can't recall the actual figure but it is about 40% and it's the reason why you won't be allowed to leave your house tomorrow.
What is the source of the figures?

Who is the They and who reports it?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 12, 2021, 12:36:41 pm
The cynic in me states that we wont lock down during the Aus open.

Imagine the pandemonium that would follow if we did.

Lockdown and cancel the open and no one will come back here again lol.

Lockdown and keep playing in front of no crowds and there will be riots.

Wait a week and then lockdown and risk the numbers going up.

Quite the dilemma.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 12, 2021, 12:37:19 pm
What is the source of the figures?

Who is the They and who reports it?

I'm not doing this LP.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 12, 2021, 01:14:33 pm
Lockdown and cancel the open and no one will come back here again lol.

Lockdown and keep playing in front of no crowds and there will be riots.

Wait a week and then lockdown and risk the numbers going up.

Quite the dilemma.

"No, you are not allowed to see your mother, no you are not allowed to open your business.  You only have 4 reasons to go out.  1 is to be an essential worker. 2. is seek health care.  3.  Buy food.  4 excercise by yourself for one hour per day.  Unless you work at the aus open as a ball kid, a player driver, an umpire, a commentator, a camera man, a gopher, security, etc etc etc, then you can go and do as you please."

Whilst no one else is looking....  QUICK all MP's flee to Canberra before the lockdown begins at midnight.

Yep, we are stopping the spread alright.  Our pandemic response is so responsible that our politicians are running off to Canberra at the request of SCOMO.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/victorian-mps-told-to-get-to-canberra-before-midnight-20210212-p571x7.html

Then people wonder why someone who works in a health service is becoming cynical about the pandemic response.  Maybe it was because we were asked to setup a pop up testing clinic at a moments notice, only for OHS to kibosh it because of the way the cables were running across the floor....

Yep, some virus threat we have here.  Its so bad, that we are encouraging people to leave the state before a lockdown so they can meet at parliament, whilst potentially visiting a location dubbed a hot spot (for those not up to speed, Brunetti at Terminal 4 of Melbourne airport).

Is this my cognitive dissonance talking?  Perhaps.  Its hard not to be conflicted when facing such hypocrisy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 12, 2021, 01:24:52 pm
I'm not doing this LP.
Why is it so hard?

It leaves us equally correct to assume the source is either imaginary or the Federal Health Minister, so I doubt anyone can take it seriously!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 12, 2021, 01:26:59 pm
Whilst no one else is looking....  QUICK all MP's flee to Canberra before the lockdown begins at midnight.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/victorian-mps-told-to-get-to-canberra-before-midnight-20210212-p571x7.html
You know the bulk of the Federal Liberal Coalition is down on the Mornington Peninsula holding it's national conference, that is why Scomo was in Officer yesterday looking at regional building developments.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 12, 2021, 02:01:04 pm
Tennis players are essential workers LMAO!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 12, 2021, 02:02:16 pm
We played AFL and Cricket through lockdowns, why not tennis?

The problem isn't likely to be the professionally managed sports and sportspeople, the big problem is more likely to either be a Joe Average or some everyday nutter riding the rails!

A much bigger concern is poor corporate behaviour, I read the AO was touting discount tickets for the afternoon and evening sessions despite knowing a lockdown was coming.

Surely the AFLW should now form hubs and quarantine the delayed season for a week or two before resuming.

Sporadic lockdowns might be COVID normal for a long time to come!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 12, 2021, 02:15:43 pm
We didn't play footy in Melbourne during lockdown.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 12, 2021, 02:33:44 pm
What is the significance of a state border to a corona virus, is it stopped by Trump's wall, maybe we should build one too?

The UK/SA/Brazil variant hasn't simply "spread", they now know it's appeared as a similar mutation occurring independently in several locations, they know this because the genomes show a different lineage. Get enough people infected and you get a new variant, eventually, somewhere.

A lot of public media commentary seems to imply you can stop this by border closures and diligence, but you can't it's already here, it's already endemic, and the appearance of mutations is inevitable.

We might be the first location for the next big variant, they all have to start somewhere!

I wish there was a simple answer, for the benefit of everybody, but there isn't. While it's a very very remote chance, you could easily be sitting on the train next to a stray fart and you'd be fecked!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bricky on February 12, 2021, 02:35:35 pm
We didn't play footy in Melbourne during lockdown.
x2
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 12, 2021, 02:44:13 pm
Tennis players are essential workers LMAO!

Let's see some clown in the media defend that !!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 12, 2021, 03:19:16 pm
No Anzac day march and celebrations watered down but the Tennis goes on....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on February 12, 2021, 04:36:37 pm
I speak for a lot of people screw THE TENNIS
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 12, 2021, 11:42:23 pm
No Anzac day march and celebrations watered down but the Tennis goes on....

We discussed this at my local RSL meeting yesterday.  The cost of insurance, etc was simply too high for the RSL to pay then have the march cancelled as is highly likely.

It’s a different world and it won’t get back to normal even after most folk are vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 13, 2021, 10:05:13 am
Article in the paper today highlighted that almost everyone who goes to Brunetti's at the airport are heading interstate.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on February 13, 2021, 10:44:04 am
What's the saying...  "you had ONE job"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 13, 2021, 11:55:34 am
Article in the paper today highlighted that almost everyone who goes to Brunetti's at the airport are heading interstate.

Its through security past the check in area before you hit the gate.

You have to walk for like a kilometre to get there and given the time frame it sounds like an airport worker is infected (5am to 2pm is a roughly 8 hour shift with half an hour either side for early finish late finish)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 13, 2021, 12:08:54 pm
Article in the paper today highlighted that almost everyone who goes to Brunetti's at the airport are heading interstate.

How many people go there, or walk past there on any given day.

Track them and all their close contacts.

How long before you are into 10,000+ people.
Not sure what kind of contact tracing can be that quick and effective.
Hence lockdown.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 13, 2021, 12:34:33 pm
Well many of the contacts wouldn't be in Victoria. They would have got a coffee and headed to Sydney, Brisbane etc.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 13, 2021, 12:43:06 pm
Already talks of "The Snap" being extended for another week.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 13, 2021, 12:51:24 pm
We discussed this at my local RSL meeting yesterday.  The cost of insurance, etc was simply too high for the RSL to pay then have the march cancelled as is highly likely.

It’s a different world and it won’t get back to normal even after most folk are vaccinated.
Plus to expose the typical Anzac Day demographic to potential new variant of SARS-CoV-2 would be disastrous, the RSL already has a big enough problem of dwindling membership without accelerating the root cause!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 13, 2021, 12:55:10 pm
Well many of the contacts wouldn't be in Victoria. They would have got a coffee and headed to Sydney, Brisbane etc.

How do you know if they are in Victoria or not? You would have to trace them to find out!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 13, 2021, 12:57:09 pm
How many people go there, or walk past there on any given day.

Track them and all their close contacts.

How long before you are into 10,000+ people.
Not sure what kind of contact tracing can be that quick and effective.
Hence lockdown.
I haven't flown domestically much in recent years, I presume that area for domestic travellers is a sterile area(past security) and is a much for arrivals as it is departures.

If I recall it's mostly Jetstar and was perhaps Virgin before that, so presuming interstate travel is a bit of a doddle, hardly investigative journalism, it probably has a sign up stating "Domestic Terminal" ->! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 13, 2021, 01:20:58 pm
I haven't flown domestically much in recent years, I presume that area for domestic travellers is a sterile area(past security) and is a much for arrivals as it is departures.

If I recall it's mostly Jetstar and was perhaps Virgin before that, so presuming interstate travel is a bit of a doddle, hardly investigative journalism, it probably has a sign up stating "Domestic Terminal" ->! ;D

Where would people be travelling to if not interstate?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 13, 2021, 01:26:40 pm
Where would people be travelling to if not interstate?
Exactly, the media make out it's a revelation.

But back in the day I travelled interstate a bit those departure and arrival mezzanines were not demarcated, people can move freely between those areas and often did to get to their favourite eatery, store or facility! Perhaps COVID has changed that, I'd hope it has otherwise it's an untraceable nightmare.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on February 13, 2021, 02:41:20 pm
It was sold to us as a five day hold,  that's why people are (begrudgingly) tolerating it.  But it will turn nasty when it gets extended on Thursday.

Any hiatus shorter than the incubation period is worthless,  won't break the cycle.

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 13, 2021, 03:01:21 pm
Incubation period for the new strain is debatable, need blood testing for antibodies before people are considered safe.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 13, 2021, 05:01:34 pm
It was sold to us as a five day hold,  that's why people are (begrudgingly) tolerating it.  But it will turn nasty when it gets extended on Thursday.

Any hiatus shorter than the incubation period is worthless,  won't break the cycle.

 
DHHS website states it will be until Feb 26.

Wonder how long it will be before its made official?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 13, 2021, 05:11:25 pm
DHHS website states it will be until Feb 26.

Wonder how long it will be before its made official?
where does it say that?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 13, 2021, 05:29:49 pm
where does it say that?
Someone posted a screen shot earlier today and said it was from there.
I'll see if i can find it
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 13, 2021, 05:33:05 pm
Type this into google....
"dhhs vic stay safe period"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 13, 2021, 05:33:23 pm
State of Emergency Date has been extended to the 26th Feb.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 13, 2021, 06:27:36 pm
... and the suckers will buy it
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 14, 2021, 01:46:41 pm
State of Emergency Date has been extended to the 26th Feb.....

Crazy!  It should be extended at least until mid-year.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 14, 2021, 03:33:58 pm
A tale of two states.

Total travellers quarantined.
VIC.                NSW
35,666.          124,893

Total COVID cases
VIC.                NSW
20,456.          4,950

Total COVID deaths
VIC.                NSW
820.               56

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 14, 2021, 05:46:48 pm
A tale of two states.

Total travellers quarantined.
VIC.                NSW
35,666.          124,893

Total COVID cases
VIC.                NSW
20,456.          4,950

Total COVID deaths
VIC.                NSW
820.               56


They've had 3.5 more travellers, we've had 4.1 times more cases, 14.6 times more deaths, FAIL.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 14, 2021, 06:10:12 pm
At one stage during the height of one of the outbreaks wasn't Victoria the only state accepting International arrivals?

So I have to ask, what is a "Traveller", is that definition the same everywhere?

Secondly, what is "Quarantined", is the definition universally the same, is perhaps one location counting "self-isolation" the same same as hotel quarantine?

There is another issue with those figures, if they are true NSW is >300% better at preventing deaths from infections than anywhere else in the world! It's a glaring anomaly in the outcomes. On the numbers above Vic was 0.04, noting the global the average is 0.033, and NSW was 0.010. I appreciate they might be non-linear due to cases versus beds, and there are different reporting regimes by region, but generally get enough infections and you average close to the global average. Is it enough to ask why, I think so!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on February 14, 2021, 07:25:45 pm
The Stay Safe Directions (Victoria) (No 13) are revoked at 11:59:00 pm on 12 February 2021.

Stay safe period
For the purposes of these directions, the stay safe period is the period beginning
at 11:59:00 pm on 12 February 2021 and ending at 11:59:00 pm on 26 February 2021.

https://www.dhhs.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/202102/Stay%20Safe%20Directions%20%28Victoria%29%20%28No%2014%29%20-%2012%20February%202021_1.pdf

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 14, 2021, 07:29:35 pm
The Stay Safe Directions (Victoria) (No 13) are revoked at 11:59:00 pm on 12 February 2021.

Stay safe period
For the purposes of these directions, the stay safe period is the period beginning
at 11:59:00 pm on 12 February 2021 and ending at 11:59:00 pm on 26 February 2021.

https://www.dhhs.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/202102/Stay%20Safe%20Directions%20%28Victoria%29%20%28No%2014%29%20-%2012%20February%202021_1.pdf


Not sure what you are trying to point out that hasn't already been pointed out.

Old rules out.
New rules in...and are in until 26th....which is later than what we've been told.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 14, 2021, 07:50:56 pm
Hard to please, if decisions are made day to day the complaint is "We need certainty!"

btw., Perhaps it is just me, but do I detect a change in the latency of the new strain becoming detectable and infectious that isn't being reflected in figures or rules yet? As each month passes it seems 14 days is becoming less and less relevant, but it's a welded on number now!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 14, 2021, 08:25:51 pm
Hard to please, if decisions are made day to day the complaint is "We need certainty!"

btw., Perhaps it is just me, but do I detect a change in the latency of the new strain becoming detectable and infectious that isn't being reflected in figures or rules yet? As each month passes it seems 14 days is becoming less and less relevant, but it's a welded on number now!
Yep I wouldnt be locked into the 14 day time frame anymore with the new strains, also the swab test can be insufficient and blood tests for antibodies are necessary. Lets just say you could get the odd patient or two sent back in the community after testing negative by swab but then a day later the blood test comes back positive for antibodies.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 15, 2021, 10:45:16 am
Now it's too early to say if he'll lift the lockdown.

Thought it was a 5 day circuit breaker?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 15, 2021, 11:00:04 am
Now it's too early to say if he'll lift the lockdown.

Thought it was a 5 day circuit breaker?
I don't see full lockdown lifted, maybe some of the restrictions lifted but I think large numbers at events won't be seen till later in the year for example. We are heading into the cooler months and most experts are predicting more cases.
I have two children getting married this year and I don't expect either event to go ahead with normal numbers or without masks etc in fact as one is in Qld I don't expect it to go ahead at all..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on February 15, 2021, 11:05:43 am
The grandmother of a work colleague of Mrs Baggers had her Pfizer Covid shot on Saturday night and was found dead yesterday. She was elderly and her only allergy was penicillin. A pretty shattered family.  :(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 15, 2021, 11:10:15 am
Now it's too early to say if he'll lift the lockdown.

Thought it was a 5 day circuit breaker?

They listed queen vic market as a hotspot yesterday.  tier 1.


 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 15, 2021, 11:29:10 am
The grandmother of a work colleague of Mrs Baggers had her Pfizer Covid shot on Saturday night and was found dead yesterday. She was elderly and her only allergy was penicillin. A pretty shattered family.  :(
Sorry to hear that baggers.

When you combine our lockdown approach with the overarching threat of the virus itself, a more wise decision would be to get better data regarding the covid vaccine, and any potential ill effects.

No doubt they will clear the vaccine in time, and say its correlation not causation, but I have heard of people getting quite violently ill post vaccine.  That was from a health care worker in Ireland (via a colleague).  Her Sister works for the NHS over in Ireland.

Add frail and susceptible and it could be a dangerous combination.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 15, 2021, 11:30:41 am
The grandmother of a work colleague of Mrs Baggers had her Pfizer Covid shot on Saturday night and was found dead yesterday. She was elderly and her only allergy was penicillin. A pretty shattered family.  :(
Sorry to hear that Baggers, but you can put your mind at ease in relation to the vaccine.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/science-unscripted/id25342806

Same broadcast linked here for those not on Apple universe.

https://www.dw.com/en/deaths-after-covid-19-vaccines-coincidence-not-causality/av-56527310
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on February 15, 2021, 11:33:31 am
MBB is on the right track I reckon.   There was an "oh F***" moment within the government last week when the implications came home to roost.  Consequently  we were sold a 5 day shut down on the basis that it was required to quickly "knock it on the head".  The reality is that the horse had already bolted and we have community transmission again (e.g QV market is a listed hot-spot now).  The shut down now must continue well past the latency (?) period, as common sense dictates,  but the  situation  all along required this not 5 days.   We were bullcrapted to,  to cover mistakes. It will be ugly Wednesday afternoon after the press conference.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 15, 2021, 11:58:16 am
I reckon there will be a push to wait for the Novavax vaccine in preference to the other two, its been trialled in the UK and South Africa and found to perform well vs the new strains which is what we are seeing in Australia now.
I watched a bit of Q and A and while the experts didnt agree on much the pro Pfizer/Moderna/ AstraZeneca group did agree that Novavax was promising and it might have to be a three way vaccine system in Australia and that if you initially got the Pfizer version for example the next step might be getting the Novavax next year.
I dont want to be given a vaccine that is 90% effective vs the standard CoVid strain but only 50-60% effective vs the others and then expected to have a cocktail of vaccines later for better coverage. Rather just have the one that gives me more total cover and less side effects.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 15, 2021, 12:18:55 pm
I reckon there will be a push to wait for the Novavax vaccine in preference to the other two, its been trialled in the UK and South Africa and found to perform well vs the new strains which is what we are seeing in Australia now.
I watched a bit of Q and A and while the experts didnt agree on much the pro Pfizer/Moderna/ AstraZeneca group did agree that Novavax was promising and it might have to be a three way vaccine system in Australia and that if you initially got the Pfizer version for example the next step might be getting the Novavax next year.
I dont want to be given a vaccine that is 90% effective vs the standard CoVid strain but only 50-60% effective vs the others and then expected to have a cocktail of vaccines later for better coverage. Rather just have the one that gives me more total cover and less side effects.
As long as the numbers are reliable.

When it is stated they are conducting a trial all trials are not equal, nothing beats numbers and nothing beats the math. Some trials have as few as 2000 while other trials may have 50000 involved. I am not sure what number is enough, and it is almost certainly going to be the case different regions use different solutions.

I doubt any one vaccine will be a broad spectrum solution, although the single shot vaccines might be attractive from a logistical perspective if all other things are equal. Cost is now probably the least important aspect, because the cost of not vaccinating is catastrophic socially and economically.

Unfortunately we just have to accept there are big dollars involved, as well as huge liability, which as far as I know has not been waivered.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on February 15, 2021, 02:34:45 pm
Not sure what you are trying to point out that hasn't already been pointed out.

Old rules out.
New rules in...and are in until 26th....which is later than what we've been told.

Just adding facts to the discussion.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on February 15, 2021, 02:51:17 pm
Sorry to hear that baggers.

When you combine our lockdown approach with the overarching threat of the virus itself, a more wise decision would be to get better data regarding the covid vaccine, and any potential ill effects.

No doubt they will clear the vaccine in time, and say its correlation not causation, but I have heard of people getting quite violently ill post vaccine.  That was from a health care worker in Ireland (via a colleague).  Her Sister works for the NHS over in Ireland.

Add frail and susceptible and it could be a dangerous combination.

I forgot to clarify that the grandmother concerned who died the day after her jab lives in England. There are, and will be, so many dreadful stories around all of this. The woman who works with Mrs Baggers hadn't seen her 'grandma' in years and was planning to see her next year when Covid is under control.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 15, 2021, 02:52:07 pm
Just adding facts to the discussion.

In case we didn't get it the first 2 times?
 :P

DHHS website states it will be until Feb 26.

Wonder how long it will be before its made official?

State of Emergency Date has been extended to the 26th Feb.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on February 17, 2021, 12:55:11 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/17/im-an-epidemiologist-ill-be-glad-to-get-whatever-vaccine-im-offered
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 17, 2021, 01:29:14 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/17/im-an-epidemiologist-ill-be-glad-to-get-whatever-vaccine-im-offered
Yes, I haven't come across someone genuinely on the front line who won't. I do have some contacts in the critical age care system, and the demise they have witnessed from COVID is no very pleasant, no matter how small you think the risk might be! No matter how frail, how ill, drowning in your own lung fluid is not a good end.

My GP has spent the last year doing double shifts at his practise and then working in emergency / critical care at one of the hospitals with a dedicated COVID ward. I can see the impact it's had on him, he has aged terribly, he'll be in the front line to get the vaccine and if it is good enough for him it's good enough for me!

 I'm not going to risk inflicting that demise on my friends and relatives, I don't want to be the one.

Young men volunteer for war, this vaccine is like signing up!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on February 17, 2021, 02:04:43 pm
Yes, I haven't come across someone genuinely on the front line who won't. I do have some contacts in the critical age care system, and the demise they have witnessed from COVID is no very pleasant, no matter how small you think the risk might be! No matter how frail, how ill, drowning in your own lung fluid is not a good end.

My GP has spent the last year doing double shifts at his practise and then working in emergency / critical care at one of the hospitals with a dedicated COVID ward. I can see the impact it's had on him, he has aged terribly, he'll be in the front line to get the vaccine and if it is good enough for him it's good enough for me!

 I'm not going to risk inflicting that demise on my friends and relatives, I don't want to be the one.

Young men volunteer for war, this vaccine is like signing up!

Rather sad when all he had to do was pop a bit of Zinc, HCQ/Ivermectin and a decent, relevant antibiotic....

And check his Vitamin D levels. The simple stuff....

Meanwhile, back in the real world, the numbers mount (and these VAERS numbers are grossly understated numbers mind you).

Or we could question whether this virus has ever been isolated and met Koch's Postulates..... the answer being a big fat No.

Or we could ask are all these reported deaths globally really attributable to the virus and corresponding disease? the answer, again, being a big fat NO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 17, 2021, 02:14:48 pm
(https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4922.0;attach=975)
Holy Schmoly, for every 1 person who go the vaccine 1.29 people were affected, you're a dead person just being near them! :o :)

That little clarifying argument about the rubbery numbers is why you don't trust stats from that person, some unlucky people must have had two shots and died twice! ;D

The really nice one is birth defects, given pregnant woman are not yet cleared to get vaccinations either as part of trials or programs, and the vaccines have only been publicly available for 3 months even if they could! Micropregnancy?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 17, 2021, 02:19:29 pm
Rather sad when all he had to do was pop a bit of Zinc, HCQ/Ivermectin and a decent, relevant antibiotic....

And check his Vitamin D levels. The simple stuff....

Meanwhile, back in the real world, the numbers mount
Yes, because medical professionals want to spend $30K keeping you alive in an overflowing hospital, or let you die alone in a tent in a paddock somewhere, rather than offering the $30 over the counter cure! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 17, 2021, 02:45:43 pm
Yes, I haven't come across someone genuinely on the front line who won't. I do have some contacts in the critical age care system, and the demise they have witnessed from COVID is no very pleasant, no matter how small you think the risk might be! No matter how frail, how ill, drowning in your own lung fluid is not a good end.

My GP has spent the last year doing double shifts at his practise and then working in emergency / critical care at one of the hospitals with a dedicated COVID ward. I can see the impact it's had on him, he has aged terribly, he'll be in the front line to get the vaccine and if it is good enough for him it's good enough for me!

 I'm not going to risk inflicting that demise on my friends and relatives, I don't want to be the one.

Young men volunteer for war, this vaccine is like signing up!
I think you will find quite a few frontline healthcare workers not so keen to get jabbed first up especially nurses and ambo's.
In fact overall the Government are concerned there maybe a 50% only or less take up overall in Australia and are spending a lot of money trying to market the vaccines to the public in particular.
Given the scatter gun approach of which vaccine you might get and how effective is one vs the other, as well as the rushed testing its going to be a hard sell IMHO until there is more data on what works best and is the safest.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 17, 2021, 02:53:09 pm
I think you will find quite a few frontline healthcare workers not so keen to get jabbed first up especially nurses and ambo's.
In fairness, by front line I was referring to those working in COVID specific ICU wards, not just in the hospitals.

I admit that I only know a handful, we've have all heard from a few through media like the @PaulP story above.

I haven't found a verified front line COVID ICU carer who is a naysayer yet, they may exist but I haven't found a report from one that was genuine. Even that fainting nurse story turned out to be fake, common or garden variety syncope.

I have heard anecdotal stories of some refusing to work COVID ICU and also refusing COVID vaccine, that seems somewhat contradictory in logic!

I'll trust my GP, I know where he has been!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 17, 2021, 02:59:58 pm
btw., Brazil, huge 1st wave with lots of alleged local 1st wave immunity, they not going to be refusing vaccine.

They are now in a world of pain with the new strain, and begging for the vaccine regulations to be relaxed!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 17, 2021, 04:20:46 pm
btw., Brazil, huge 1st wave with lots of alleged local 1st wave immunity, they not going to be refusing vaccine.

They are now in a world of pain with the new strain, and begging for the vaccine regulations to be relaxed!
Brazil's problem is the president..an incompetent Muppet who would make Trump look like a Nobel Prize winner.
Think they are using the Chinese Sinovac vaccine and the Indian produced AstraZeneca, not sure I'd be sampling either of those two offerings.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 17, 2021, 04:31:13 pm
So Victoria is free to join the real world again and with it is a set of guidlines as to what you can and can't do.

I was browsing through the categories and noticed this one....

Quote
Adult entertainment: Brothels and sex on premises venues open, with a density quotient of 1 per 4sqm and a patron cap of
100. Electronic record keeping required. Strip club venues open, with a density quotient of 1 per 4 sqm and no seated service
requirement

Now, i've never partook, but my understanding is following that density quotient kinda defeats the purpose. lol
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 17, 2021, 05:03:40 pm
It was interesting listening to Nobel Laureate Peter Doherty on the wireless today.  He is hoping for a very rapid and thorough vaccination program with a focus on health and aged care workers.

My daughter is a frontline health worker and she can't wait to get her jab(s).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 17, 2021, 05:05:00 pm
So Victoria is free to join the real world again and with it is a set of guidlines as to what you can and can't do.

I was browsing through the categories and noticed this one....

Now, i've never partook, but my understanding is following that density quotient kinda defeats the purpose. lol

I don't think workers are included in the density quotient Krud  :-\
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 17, 2021, 05:09:17 pm
Now, i've never partook, but my understanding is following that density quotient kinda defeats the purpose. lol
Speak for yourself! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 17, 2021, 09:50:58 pm
Anyone else find it odd that the highly infectious virus travels through the air infecting people, somehow gets out into the community only infecting a half a dozen people, even going to somewhere like vic market?


As soon as they said Brunetti at terminal 4 I thought we'd see a good 10 people compromised including a couple interstate travellers 

Thats what I expected from a super infectious virus anyway.  Maybe I watch too many movies.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 18, 2021, 08:09:28 am
Anyone else find it odd that the highly infectious virus travels through the air infecting people, somehow gets out into the community only infecting a half a dozen people, even going to somewhere like vic market?
Thry, you claimed the same about the quarantine workers friends and family just days before they started testing positive, and now you are back on the same train hours after lockdown, ................. it's like Groundhog Day!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 18, 2021, 11:57:31 am
Anyone else find it odd that the highly infectious virus travels through the air infecting people, somehow gets out into the community only infecting a half a dozen people, even going to somewhere like vic market?


As soon as they said Brunetti at terminal 4 I thought we'd see a good 10 people compromised including a couple interstate travellers 

Thats what I expected from a super infectious virus anyway.  Maybe I watch too many movies.

I find it hard to believe the hotel security guard from the tennis quarantine didn't infect anybody.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 18, 2021, 12:03:40 pm
I find it hard to believe the hotel security guard from the tennis quarantine didn't infect anybody.
How does someone get an infection or avoid getting an infection?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 19, 2021, 12:08:51 pm
Interesting to hear that syringe shortages will ultimately waste vaccine, stuff like this was predicted long ago yet nothing was done about it, it's typical of Federal Bureaucracy. I suppose the Feds will claim it was the States responsibility to supply syringes!

Much of the current delay in getting vaccine is down to the already discussed shortage of suitable glass vials, I'm, not sure where the efforts got in producing a glass or ceramic lined plastic version, but in terms of production it's still the major limiting factor. The two companies with the sand monopoly are making a killing, in more ways than one!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 19, 2021, 12:51:55 pm
Interesting to hear that syringe shortages will ultimately waste vaccine, stuff like this was predicted long ago yet nothing was done about it, it's typical of Federal Bureaucracy. I suppose the Feds will claim it was the States responsibility to supply syringes!

Much of the current delay in getting vaccine is down to the already discussed shortage of suitable glass vials, I'm, not sure where the efforts got in producing a glass or ceramic lined plastic version, but in terms of production it's still the major limiting factor. The two companies with the sand monopoly are making a killing, in more ways than one!
The government is spending $800M on a new facility that is modern and pandemic ready, was in planning well before Covid hit.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 19, 2021, 01:34:23 pm
The government is spending $800M on a new facility that is modern and pandemic ready, was in planning well before Covid hit.
Lots of these things are planned but they struggle to get off the ground or complete due to bureaucracy.

We already know researchers were working of SARS coronavirus vaccines back in 2003 - 2005, but it got dropped due to cuts in funding after the previous SARS outbreak subsided. But people would be shocked to realise Drew Weissman and others had been working on mRNA vaccines including one for corona virus since 1997, and nobody took him seriously until Feb 2020.

Not only that, his group and others have mRNA vaccines set for trial for things like Malaria, Japanese Encephalitis, some cancers, Ebola, AIDS, Dengue, etc., etc. but he couldn't get traction. For a couple of reasons, first what they do with Pfizer and Moderna is different from conventional stuff like AstraZeneca so there was fear of change, the old people protecting there old ways. Secondly because the new methods need investment in new factories there is a reluctance to spend when they already have an investment, the old people protecting their old investment. It's a huge problem that comes primarily out of privatising everything.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 19, 2021, 01:56:00 pm
Lots of these things are planned but they struggle to get off the ground or complete due to bureaucracy.

What are you talking about LP? The facility is being designed as we speak, I'm working on the project!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 19, 2021, 02:22:39 pm
What are you talking about LP? The facility is being designed as we speak, I'm working on the project!!
I'm discussing how the lack of foresight impacts us all, a general incompetence.

FFS, we discussed some of these very resource issues here on this forum, we aren't omnipotent!

How can it be that a bureaucracy full to the brim of career planners and project managers can purchase more vaccine than they can use before it expires, because they haven't purchased enough syringes to dispense it?

It's not Dan or Scomo's issue, the bureaucrats are welded in place!

When that facility is built and running, then it will be time to crow about forward planning, if it can't be used to make mRNA vaccines it is probably mostly redundant before it even starts!

I read a report last weekend that Thailand which thinks of itself as a 3rd world economy, predicted it would be down the vaccine pecking order and started building it's own mRNA vaccine production facility back in Feb 2020. That is apparently due to open around about now and has enough capacity to supply us as well, so the whispers are we'll just buy the stuff from Thailand, detect a trend?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 19, 2021, 11:48:12 pm
From what I have heard about the development of COVID vaccines, the research started with the SARS outbreak.  All that was needed was a sample of the COVID virus - provided by the Peter Doherty Institute - and testing could get underway.  Government bureaucracy, albeit the CSIRO, was heavily involved.

However, I think that LP has a valid point about Governments and forward planning.  They are wedded to the election cycle and refuse to provide long term funding for future-proofing exercises, be they health, housing, education, energy, environment, etc.

The problem with the syringes is not quantity; there are more than enough.  It's that the syringes we have waste a small amount of vaccine with every injection.  The Federal Government is trying to source syringes that minimise that wastage.  Inefficient? Probably.  Incompetent? Not really.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 20, 2021, 07:57:45 am
Syringes may well be a thing of the past with the nano patch technology the way of the future. Doesn't solve the immediate shortage though.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on February 20, 2021, 03:27:43 pm
Well, it happened... I saw footage of anti-vaxxers and sure enough, couple puffing on a cigarette and a number morbidly obese folks (with apologies if it is a medical condition and not a result of gorging).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 20, 2021, 03:36:08 pm
Zombies anyone?
https://au.news.yahoo.com/zombie-infection-country-unlocks-50000-year-old-viruses-covid-034817008.html

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 20, 2021, 03:40:32 pm
Syringes may well be a thing of the past with the nano patch technology the way of the future. Doesn't solve the immediate shortage though.

If that's in any way perfected, it would save millions of lives
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on February 20, 2021, 04:34:40 pm
Zombies anyone?
https://au.news.yahoo.com/zombie-infection-country-unlocks-50000-year-old-viruses-covid-034817008.html



If that Russian crew head to Transylvania... lock up your daughters.  ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 20, 2021, 05:19:07 pm
If that's in any way perfected, it would save millions of lives
Company in Brisbane scaling up for a local version, If think first cab off the rank is measles vaccines for kids. A mate of mine reckons its a game changer.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 20, 2021, 05:20:01 pm
Well, it happened... I saw footage of anti-vaxxers and sure enough, couple puffing on a cigarette and a number morbidly obese folks (with apologies if it is a medical condition and not a result of gorging).
The unwashed out in full force today.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on February 21, 2021, 08:09:30 am
Zombies anyone?
https://au.news.yahoo.com/zombie-infection-country-unlocks-50000-year-old-viruses-covid-034817008.html

Did you ever see the tv series "Fortitude " ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 21, 2021, 11:44:23 am
The grandmother of a work colleague of Mrs Baggers had her Pfizer Covid shot on Saturday night and was found dead yesterday. She was elderly and her only allergy was penicillin. A pretty shattered family.  :(

Where was this?  The first Australian jabs are happening now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 21, 2021, 12:30:57 pm
Where was this?  The first Australian jabs are happening now.

Baggers went on to posting a clarification.  The lady lived in the UK
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 21, 2021, 04:42:58 pm
Did you ever see the tv series "Fortitude " ?
No Cookie, think I read something about being set in the Arctic or similar...is it a Zombie series?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on February 21, 2021, 06:24:02 pm
No Cookie, think I read something about being set in the Arctic or similar...is it a Zombie series?

Not a zombie series but is set in the Arctic. It is very relevant to your woolly mammoth story but I won't spoil the plot in case you want to watch it. I really enjoyed it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 21, 2021, 06:25:35 pm
Not a zombie series but is set in the Arctic. It is very relevant to your woolly mammoth story but I won't spoil the plot in case you want to watch it. I really enjoyed it.
Ok, will check it out...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 21, 2021, 10:53:09 pm
Did you ever see the tv series "Fortitude " ?

Great series and, yes, we should be worried  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on February 22, 2021, 08:46:06 am
If only we could somehow have a good C-19 news feed... ie "In the past week, 9 million people globally received their Covid vaccine shot with no severe ill effects. The 11 million from the week prior report good health... etc."

Instead, the 2 that dropped dead make the headlines and the anti-vaxxers leap on that information with absolutely no knowledge of the health status of those adversely affected by the vaccine.  ::)

I read that Israel is getting close to 35% of their population having been inoculated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 22, 2021, 09:24:21 am
I read that Israel is getting close to 35% of their population having been inoculated.
I believe that is an old total, they have already hit 50% but the published figures will lag the activity.

If only we could somehow have a good C-19 news feed... ie "In the past week, 9 million people globally received their Covid vaccine shot with no severe ill effects. The 11 million from the week prior report good health... etc."

Instead, the 2 that dropped dead make the headlines and the anti-vaxxers leap on that information with absolutely no knowledge of the health status of those adversely affected by the vaccine.  ::)
There isn't strong evidence many people were adversely affected at this stage it's just coincidence needing further investigation, although it is expected that like any vaccine some will have a serious reaction. But the risk is so low it's negligible, to date with millions already vaccinated it appears to be even lower risk than most pre-existing vaccines, and very low compared to the risk of not being vaccinated.

I find the vocal anti-vaxxers are mostly individuals who protest pretty much anything and everything.

You will note today's AO media about jeering a vaccination reference is a nice example of media negligence, the media court controversy because it rates, so they publish articles about the boos ignoring the equal or louder applause. The anti-vaxxers will only acknowledge the boos, because fundamentally they act to recruit not to inform, also keep in mind the crowd is about 25% Djoker boosters, the player who many regard as the king anti-vaxxer himself!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 22, 2021, 11:03:01 am
If only we could somehow have a good C-19 news feed... ie "In the past week, 9 million people globally received their Covid vaccine shot with no severe ill effects. The 11 million from the week prior report good health... etc."

Instead, the 2 that dropped dead make the headlines and the anti-vaxxers leap on that information with absolutely no knowledge of the health status of those adversely affected by the vaccine.  ::)

I read that Israel is getting close to 35% of their population having been inoculated.

Baggers, I will point out one inconsistency of argument here, that worries me somewhat.

If you or your loved one was directly affected by an administration of the vaccine, how happy would you be about it?

NOTE:  when the anti vaxxers advocate a "let it rip" argument with respect to COVID, because it only affects a fraction of the population adversely (figures not quoted, as I am not an advocate of this approach) the argument is much the same.

It really isnt as simple as anti vax, pro vax etc.  In this case, people are right to be skeptical.  Apparently the Pfizer vaccine has not even been granted FDA approval, and is only being administered thanks to state of emergency powers.  I understand that this is somewhat necessary evil, but it doesnt sit much better with me.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 22, 2021, 11:11:11 am
Before anyone goes on the offensive with me, I am abstaining from having an opinion, but just providing balance to these arguments now.  Its not a popular position, and it generally doesnt sit well with many, but my approach isnt one of arguing who is right, but trying to work out what is right.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/guillain-barre-syndrome.html

Quote
Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS) is a rare disorder where the body’s immune system damages nerve cells, causing muscle weakness and sometimes paralysis. While its cause is not fully understood, the syndrome often follows infection with a virus or bacteria. Each year in the United States, an estimated 3,000 to 6,000 people develop GBS. Most people fully recover from GBS, but some have permanent nerve damage.

GBS and the link to flu vaccine

In 1976, there was a small increased risk of GBS after swine flu vaccination, which was a special flu vaccine for a potential pandemic strain of flu virus. The National Academy of Medicine, formerly known as Institute of Medicine, conducted a scientific review of this issue in 2003 and found that people who received the 1976 swine flu vaccine had an increased risk for developing GBS. The increased risk was approximately one additional case of GBS for every 100,000 people who got the swine flu vaccine. Scientists have several theories about the cause, but the exact reason for this link remains unknown.

There have been several studies of the risk of GBS after flu vaccine and CDC monitors for GBS during each flu season. The data on an association between seasonal influenza vaccine and GBS have been variable from season-to-season. When there has been an increased risk, it has consistently been in the range of 1-2 additional GBS cases per million flu vaccine doses administered.

Studies suggest that it is more likely that a person will get GBS after getting the flu than after vaccination. It is important to keep in mind that severe illness and death are associated with flu, and getting vaccinated is the best way to prevent flu infection and its complications.


This is where it becomes problematic to understand and why I don't denigrate people who think they are standing up for the right thing.

We actually dont have good data surrounding this virus, what it can do, and we arguably wont have good data for quite some time about any long term adverse affects of administration of a vaccine that was hastily developed in light of the pandemic situation.

Anyone advocating either position with absolute certainty is simply confessing that they have a confirmation bias, and their opinion should be heeded with caution.   At this stage, no one really knows what will happen on a large scale with both the virus, and the vaccine and I think thats the only real position people should be taking with respect to all of this.

There is every chance that vaccine might be worse than the virus, and vice versa, and only time and studies will tell the story, not an assertion of facts on a forum like facebook, youtube, or the carlton supporters club forum.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 22, 2021, 11:21:35 am
NOTE:  when the anti vaxxers advocate a "let it rip" argument with respect to COVID, because it only affects a fraction of the population adversely (figures not quoted, as I am not an advocate of this approach) the argument is much the same.
Not at all, firstly the idea that a vaccine is solely responsible for a demise is laughable, and secondly the numbers are drastically different.

Up until today, 205,000,000 COVID vaccinations have been issued, yet the sensationalist media and anti-vaxxers highlight a handful of correlated incidents that could be severe reactions.

"Letting it Rip" would be the equivalent of putting the mutating virus on steroids and expecting a good result. It's a complete misunderstanding of how a virus evolves in relation to how immunity develops. The sort of immunity the anti-vaxxers claim will come from a release requires global deaths to be in the 8 and 9 digit category, 10 or 100 times more than now!

It really isnt as simple as anti vax, pro vax etc.  In this case, people are right to be skeptical.  Apparently the Pfizer vaccine has not even been granted FDA approval, and is only being administered thanks to state of emergency powers.  I understand that this is somewhat necessary evil, but it doesnt sit much better with me.
All the current vaccines are approved for emergency use after Stage III trials testing vaccine on 10,000 to 40,000 individuals in double blind, which bypasses Stage IV where perhaps it is required to specifically test vaccine on 100,000 or more individuals are required. But by accelerating the roll-out of emergency use Stage IV is effectively already being conducted in many regions. It's wrong to consider people as guinea pigs when vaccinated in Feb 2021, because some regions have been vaccinating since Dec 2020, it's just that each region has sovereignty over it's own approval process. But globally due to the very high numbers of people already vaccinated the trial is effectively done.

Testing 10,000,000 over 3 months is functionally the same as testing 2,000,000 over a year or 1,000,000 over two years with a good safe margin. Humans struggle with the math because it doesn't fit with personal experience. These are numbers a regular deliberate trial can only dream of!

Keep in mind the anti-vaxxers and media are referring to incidents that happened within minutes or hours of being vaccinated. How many hours have passed for those individuals already vaccinated, I don't know how to do that calculation but it will be billions of hours!

Some vaccines have been given permission to Challenge test, which makes this Stage III and IV process effectively redundant, but is not consider as scientifically rigorous as there is no double blind trial.

Despite the rare events that relate to specifics, this vaccine is already statistically safer than driving, flying, eating nuts, smoking, drinking alcohol, sunbaking, climbing a ladder, taking a shower, having a bath. I realise this doesn't fit with some people's experience, but you can't debate the math, it just is!

You might die, I might die, coincidentally or just because of the injection, or because of anaphylactic shock, but you are more likely to die trying a new food or restaurant this week!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 22, 2021, 11:42:45 am
I read a nice analogy on the web over the weekend.

Poison Smarties.

 - If COVID was a box of 100 Smarties, somewhere between 3 or 4 of the Smarties in that box would kill you if you ate them, any one of another 30 would make you ill.

 - If the COVID vaccine was Smarties, you have to eat 20,000 of those boxes before you had a 50/50 chance of getting a single Smarty death.

 Statistically, you probably find that eating 2,000,000 Smarties is likely to kill you by a range of means anyway, choking, diabetes, obesity, vitamin deficiency!

There are many ironies in the anti-vaxxer debates, perhaps none greater than the woke health aware who are fervent promoters of unpasteurised milk products, which is effectively cyanide for young babies in comparison to the risk of any vaccination!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 22, 2021, 01:38:43 pm
Where is the source for your Smarties data?





Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 22, 2021, 01:41:25 pm
Interesting article about the history of the polio vaccine(s): How a debate over two competing vaccines gripped the medical community — in 1961, Salon Click HERE (https://www.salon.com/2021/02/21/polio-and-covid-19-vaccines-jonas-salk-albert-sabin-excerpt/).

I didn’t know there were 2 polio vaccines. I’m glad I received the flavoured Sabin sugar cube rather than the Salk jab as I hate needles and they would have needed a footy team to hold me down.

Fascinating that Sabin’s live attenuated vaccine eventually mutated to cause infections.

Just the story of the hostility between Salk & Sabin makes it worth the read. Reminds me of one of the more famous scientific fights to the death between Newton and Leibniz over who invented calculus. British mathematicians fell in behind Newton while those on the continent went the other way. Prof. Jerison from MIT argues the refusal of the British to use Leibniz’s notation set British maths back by a 100 years.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 22, 2021, 01:41:53 pm
Where is the source for your Smarties data?
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

To date there are not many official published reports on allergic reactions, probably because of privacy issues, plus these typically take more than 2 or 3 months to be published. But there is a Moderna study in the USA. 9 reactions from more than 4,000,000 injections for a total of 0 deaths.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7004e1.htm
The trouble with this study is the VAERS is voluntary, and anyone can report to it not just health officials, but it's very unlikely a death wouldn't be reported.

Secondly, if there are so few cases not many people will bother studying it, it's not worth the effort because of the low relative risk and because if numbers are so low they are difficult to specifically link to the vaccine. Technically the risk of vaccination is a non-issue relative to COVID itself.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 22, 2021, 01:46:33 pm
Interesting article about the history of the polio vaccine(s): How a debate over two competing vaccines gripped the medical community — in 1961, Salon Click HERE (https://www.salon.com/2021/02/21/polio-and-covid-19-vaccines-jonas-salk-albert-sabin-excerpt/).

I didn’t know there were 2 polio vaccines. I’m glad I received the flavoured Sabin sugar cube rather than the Salk jab as I hate needles and they would have needed a footy team to hold me down.

Fascinating that Sabin’s live attenuated vaccine eventually mutated to cause infections.

Just the story of the hostility between Salk & Sabin makes it worth the read. Reminds me of one of the more famous scientific fights to the death between Newton and Leibniz over who invented calculus. British mathematicians fell in behind Newton while those on the continent went the other way. Prof. Jerison from MIT argues the refusal of the British to use Leibniz’s notation set British maths back by a 100 years.
Yes, and this is a very nice example of modern science, which now basically accepts it was a tie, I'm not sure about Jerison's observation that is a bit subjective. For the lay person, Newton's Dotted notation was very heavy reading.

btw., You have to put the outcome of those Calculus examples in context with the communications technology of the time, a international debate conducted in letters could mean a year or more before you get a response to a point! In local terms the public debate was often over before an international response even arrived.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on February 22, 2021, 01:52:04 pm
Interesting article about the history of the polio vaccine(s): How a debate over two competing vaccines gripped the medical community — in 1961, Salon Click HERE (https://www.salon.com/2021/02/21/polio-and-covid-19-vaccines-jonas-salk-albert-sabin-excerpt/).

I didn’t know there were 2 polio vaccines. I’m glad I received the flavoured Sabin sugar cube rather than the Salk jab as I hate needles and they would have needed a footy team to hold me down.

Fascinating that Sabin’s live attenuated vaccine eventually mutated to cause infections.
........................

https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/polio-salk-sabin-rivalry

This article is a quick and easy read, and seems to suggest that a combined vaccine is best.

But a report released in July last year by the World Health Organization (WHO) may provide a poetic resolution to the debate between the two camps. The answer: a combination of both vaccines may be the most effective way to defeat the disease. After a series of trials in India in 2011 and 2012, researchers found that administering the injected vaccine alongside the live virus boosted immunity significantly. Now the WHO is recommending this approach throughout the remaining polio endemic countries.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 22, 2021, 02:07:09 pm
Good read Paul. But one of the more startling claims in the Salon article (adapted by the authors from a book they’d written) was:
Quote
Mainly because of the large-scale use of Sabin's vaccine, poliovirus has largely been eradicated from the planet. Only a few natural infections occur now, mainly in Pakistan and Afghanistan where polio is still endemic. Sabin's vaccine is a live RNA virus. While it does not thrive well in humans, it does replicate in us. Since RNA replication is error prone, the virus in the vaccine could mutate to become dangerous again. The mutated virus could spread to others and cause paralysis. Indeed, most of the cases of polio seen today outside the endemic areas are caused by such mutations of the live virus in Sabin's vaccine.
This implies the mutations weren’t responsible for the polio infections in Pakistan & Afghanistan but had cropped up elsewhere. As for how many were infected by mutations and whether anyone was paralysed as a result, we aren’t told. I guess we have to buy the book to find out!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 22, 2021, 02:14:39 pm
But a report released in July last year by the World Health Organization (WHO) may provide a poetic resolution to the debate between the two camps. The answer: a combination of both vaccines may be the most effective way to defeat the disease. After a series of trials in India in 2011 and 2012, researchers found that administering the injected vaccine alongside the live virus boosted immunity significantly. Now the WHO is recommending this approach throughout the remaining polio endemic countries.
Interestingly, there are some early rumours "cross vaccination" with different types of COVID vaccine are offering similar improved results. You can expect papers by mid-year, there is one paper out but the study is so small at less than 50 patients it's not worth referencing.

This might be the biggest issue in 3rd World locations, where an initial expensive dose to high risk populations can be followed up with a cheaper generic shot. Let's hope for good news on that front!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on February 22, 2021, 02:23:29 pm
Interestingly, there are some early rumours "cross vaccination" with different types of COVID vaccine are offering similar improved results. You can expect papers by mid-year, there is one paper out but the study is so small at less than 50 patients it's not worth referencing.

This might be the biggest issue in 3rd World locations, where an initial expensive dose to high risk populations can be followed up with a cheaper generic shot. Let's hope for good news on that front!

Indeed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 22, 2021, 04:01:31 pm
Where is the source for your Smarties data?

The back of the packet?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 22, 2021, 04:09:29 pm
The back of the packet?
I wish I'd thought of that! ;D

@DJC An aside, did you notice the TGA is coming down hard on those profiteering from "Trumps COVID solutions", Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine. The crooks are all getting cease and desist orders issued this week, I'm a bit disappointed it took this long, but it's a step in the right direction.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 22, 2021, 05:36:31 pm

 Statistically, you probably find that eating 2,000,000 Smarties is likely to kill you by a range of means anyway, choking, diabetes, obesity, vitamin deficiency!
But what a way to go
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 22, 2021, 06:03:38 pm
Not at all, firstly the idea that a vaccine is solely responsible for a demise is laughable, and secondly the numbers are drastically different.

Up until today, 205,000,000 COVID vaccinations have been issued, yet the sensationalist media and anti-vaxxers highlight a handful of correlated incidents that could be severe reactions.

"Letting it Rip" would be the equivalent of putting the mutating virus on steroids and expecting a good result. It's a complete misunderstanding of how a virus evolves in relation to how immunity develops. The sort of immunity the anti-vaxxers claim will come from a release requires global deaths to be in the 8 and 9 digit category, 10 or 100 times more than now!
All the current vaccines are approved for emergency use after Stage III trials testing vaccine on 10,000 to 40,000 individuals in double blind, which bypasses Stage IV where perhaps it is required to specifically test vaccine on 100,000 or more individuals are required. But by accelerating the roll-out of emergency use Stage IV is effectively already being conducted in many regions. It's wrong to consider people as guinea pigs when vaccinated in Feb 2021, because some regions have been vaccinating since Dec 2020, it's just that each region has sovereignty over it's own approval process. But globally due to the very high numbers of people already vaccinated the trial is effectively done.

Testing 10,000,000 over 3 months is functionally the same as testing 2,000,000 over a year or 1,000,000 over two years with a good safe margin. Humans struggle with the math because it doesn't fit with personal experience. These are numbers a regular deliberate trial can only dream of!

Keep in mind the anti-vaxxers and media are referring to incidents that happened within minutes or hours of being vaccinated. How many hours have passed for those individuals already vaccinated, I don't know how to do that calculation but it will be billions of hours!

Some vaccines have been given permission to Challenge test, which makes this Stage III and IV process effectively redundant, but is not consider as scientifically rigorous as there is no double blind trial.

Despite the rare events that relate to specifics, this vaccine is already statistically safer than driving, flying, eating nuts, smoking, drinking alcohol, sunbaking, climbing a ladder, taking a shower, having a bath. I realise this doesn't fit with some people's experience, but you can't debate the math, it just is!

You might die, I might die, coincidentally or just because of the injection, or because of anaphylactic shock, but you are more likely to die trying a new food or restaurant this week!

There is still enough statistical bias in the numbers to show, that adverse outcomes vary for all ages, and that those who die "from covid" sometimes actually die from something else, AND they have covid, which simply complicates their treatment.

THAT is an uncomfortable truth, not easily explained.

THAT is why we locked down though. To stop those vulnerable people from dieing from COVID.  Statistically, if COVID led to bad outcomes, our return travellers should start heading into hospital, and having the odd covid death by now.

We dont but there might be a reason for that.  Most likely linked to the demographic of return traveller, and worker in hotel quarantine.  i.e. these people are likely younger and fitter than average.  Hence the lack of COVID deaths since we "eradicated" it. 


As for the vaccines, the story I quoted is one that should be heeded.  That H1N1 vaccine was sidelined after they jabbed 40 million people in 1973.  The data shows 1 extra case of GBS per 100 000 people.  Not significant in itself, but significant enough if you were the one who ended up with it.

Hence what I stated previously.  You are confirming your bias by subscribing to the answer of vaccines dont do any harm.  They can, and sometimes they do.  Thats not to mean we shouldnt administer it, it just means we need to be cautious about what we are doing, why we are doing it, and what the potential outcomes are.  I dont blame anyone for not wanting it, and I dont blame anyone who thinks they should get it, because they ultimately are guided by whats good for them. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on February 22, 2021, 07:19:49 pm
...
Hence what I stated previously.  You are confirming your bias by subscribing to the answer of vaccines dont do any harm.  I don't think there has been anyone on here who has demonstrated blind faith and a 100% belief that all vaccines are 'safe.' All vaccines have had issues with a small % of the community. They can, and sometimes they do.  Thats not to mean we shouldnt administer it, it just means we need to be cautious about what we are doing, why we are doing it, and what the potential outcomes are.  I dont blame anyone for not wanting it - depends why, and I dont blame anyone who thinks they should get it, because they ultimately are guided by whats good for them.

Now, 3 Leos, you were being a bit of a smarty pants ;)  -- come on, admit it  ;) -- when you asked a few posts back, in my response to a post on a more positive vaccine outlook, that if a relative of mine was harmed or died from the vaccine how would I feel? Now, you cheeky fella, I of course would be devastated and grief struck, BUT, it would NOT result in me decrying the vaccine. I would understand that the greater community good is being aided by the vaccine.

As with most medical discoveries I am confident that all Covid vaccines will continue to undergo testing and refining to improve efficacy and minimise adverse reaction potential. This is a global emergency and we are doing the best we can in the circumstances.

As I mentioned way back when I was having my vaccines on joining the RAN, most of us felt crook but recovered, about 1%, or less, of the guys had a very adverse reaction - but I, and millions of others from that era, have not had TB, Yellow Fever etc. I, and millions of others, have not had measles, polio... and so on. Some people cannot handle one of the great inventions of the 20th century, penicillin, and can get very ill, even die... but we don't discontinue penicillin because of that - we researched and found other means to help those folks (as a note of interest - indigenous folks through the ages used variations of mould /herbs etc. to treat illnesses with some success!).

The human species is damn resilient, and smart... and yet, can also be incredibly fearful and jump to, sometimes, bizarre conclusions. I don't think anyone on here, when expressing a favourable attitude to vaccines, is talking in absolutes. In a 100 years time people will look back on how we handled the pandemic and probably summize that we did the best we could with what we knew.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 22, 2021, 08:07:10 pm
It's early detection and early treatment that helps reduce the death rate, something provided by science and technology, an outcome second only to preventing COVID infections in the first place.

It's not the benevolence of the virus that reduces death rates!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 22, 2021, 08:43:24 pm
Now, 3 Leos, you were being a bit of a smarty pants ;)  -- come on, admit it  ;) -- when you asked a few posts back, in my response to a post on a more positive vaccine outlook, that if a relative of mine was harmed or died from the vaccine how would I feel? Now, you cheeky fella, I of course would be devastated and grief struck, BUT, it would NOT result in me decrying the vaccine. I would understand that the greater community good is being aided by the vaccine.

As with most medical discoveries I am confident that all Covid vaccines will continue to undergo testing and refining to improve efficacy and minimise adverse reaction potential. This is a global emergency and we are doing the best we can in the circumstances.

As I mentioned way back when I was having my vaccines on joining the RAN, most of us felt crook but recovered, about 1%, or less, of the guys had a very adverse reaction - but I, and millions of others from that era, have not had TB, Yellow Fever etc. I, and millions of others, have not had measles, polio... and so on. Some people cannot handle one of the great inventions of the 20th century, penicillin, and can get very ill, even die... but we don't discontinue penicillin because of that - we researched and found other means to help those folks (as a note of interest - indigenous folks through the ages used variations of mould /herbs etc. to treat illnesses with some success!).

The human species is damn resilient, and smart... and yet, can also be incredibly fearful and jump to, sometimes, bizarre conclusions. I don't think anyone on here, when expressing a favourable attitude to vaccines, is talking in absolutes. In a 100 years time people will look back on how we handled the pandemic and probably summize that we did the best we could with what we knew.


Well said Ol Boy, I tips me lid to ya.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 22, 2021, 08:46:30 pm
I've read enough and seen enough to take the jab and not even think twice about it.

Get on with it.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on February 22, 2021, 08:49:36 pm
I wish I'd thought of that! ;D

@DJC An aside, did you notice the TGA is coming down hard on those profiteering from "Trumps COVID solutions", Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine. The crooks are all getting cease and desist orders issued this week, I'm a bit disappointed it took this long, but it's a step in the right direction.

So Risch is making it all up is he?

Being competent at bluster doesn't make one knowledgeable....

https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Testimony-Risch-2020-11-19.pdf

Quote
As I have said on many occasions, the evidence for benefit of hydroxychloroquine used early in high-risk outpatients is extremely strong, and the evidence against harm is also equally strong. This body of evidence dramatically outweighs the
risk/benefit evidence for remdesivir, monoclonal antibodies or the difficult to use bamlanivimab that the FDA has approved for emergency use authorizations while denying the emergency use authorization for hydroxychloroquine. This egregious double standard for hydroxychloroquine needs to be overturned immediately and its emergency use authorization application approved. This is how we will get on the road to early outpatient treatment and the major curtailment of mortality.

c19study.com
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on February 22, 2021, 08:51:13 pm
I've read enough and seen enough to take the jab and not even think twice about it.

Get on with it.



you're only reading the (official) narrative then.

Try this:

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/99d35b02-a5cb-41e6-ad80-a070f8a5ee17/JSP_PP.pdfhttps://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/99d35b02-a5cb-41e6-ad80-a070f8a5ee17/JSP_PP.pdf (https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/99d35b02-a5cb-41e6-ad80-a070f8a5ee17/JSP_PP.pdf)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 22, 2021, 08:51:29 pm
When you immunise the herd you expect to lose a few along the way, I think Thry is only trying to point out you need to spend some time reducing how many " few" are lost and its an individual choice and those who choose not to be vaccinated or delay vaccination should not be ostracized or seen as jeopardizing the herd.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on February 22, 2021, 08:59:09 pm
https://theconversation.com/i-was-the-australian-doctor-on-the-whos-covid-19-mission-to-china-heres-what-we-found-about-the-origins-of-the-coronavirus-155554
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 22, 2021, 09:18:24 pm
https://theconversation.com/i-was-the-australian-doctor-on-the-whos-covid-19-mission-to-china-heres-what-we-found-about-the-origins-of-the-coronavirus-155554
You can only find whats presented to you, the Chinese had ample time to clean up any evidence they created IMHO and you look at missing doctors, wuhan lab staff being reported as ill with CoVid symptoms and I think the jury is still out on the origins of CoVid19. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on February 22, 2021, 09:23:54 pm
You can only find whats presented to you, the Chinese had ample time to clean up any evidence they created IMHO and you look at missing doctors, wuhan lab staff being reported as ill with CoVid symptoms and I think the jury is still out on the origins of CoVid19. 

Well, if it really was Made In China, then it should be of low quality and stop working as advertised after a week lol. And here we are, 12 months later..............
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 22, 2021, 09:34:20 pm
Well, if it really was Made In China, then it should be of low quality and stop working as advertised after a week lol. And here we are, 12 months later..............
Paul, I'll pay that   😄
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 22, 2021, 09:39:36 pm
When you immunise the herd you expect to lose a few along the way, I think Thry is only trying to point out you need to spend some time reducing how many " few" are lost and its an individual choice and those who choose not to be vaccinated or delay vaccination should not be ostracized or seen as jeopardizing the herd.

Pretty much.  I'm a bit more understanding of the trepidation people may have.

Most of the ones worried have a story to go with that, and usually its tied to good intentions with bad outcomes.

Combine a pandemic, with a general mistrust of the merit of our response and management of said response, add a dose of skepticism to this particular vaccine, and the anti vaccination crowd is actually much larger portion of the population than usual this time.

I fully expect that uncomfortable outcomes from this vaccination to be buried and explained away too which is why when they say the vaccine is perfectly safe people will take that with a grain of salt.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on February 22, 2021, 10:18:02 pm
Paul, I'll pay that   😄

Thanks EB. We shouldn't be too hard on the Chinese. In terms of manufacturing quality, they make things to the quality required by the person / entity commissioning the goods. They can make things as good as anyone. They just seem to be where everybody goes to make junk.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 22, 2021, 10:55:36 pm
They can't make a car to save themselves though Paul :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 23, 2021, 09:10:03 am
Interesting article outlining China’s very effective response to US claims about the “China Virus”:

Quote
Meanwhile, powerful voices in the US – from former President Trump to congressional Republicans – were working to rebrand COVID-19 as “the China virus,” amplifying fringe theories that it had been engineered by Chinese scientists.

Social media accounts that appeared to be pro-Trump or QAnon followers pushed the disinformation, repeatedly retweeting identical content that claimed China created the virus as a bioweapon, researchers at the Australia Institute’s Centre for Responsible Technology found.

As US rhetoric intensified, China went on the offensive. On February 22, People’s Daily ran a report highlighting speculation that the US military brought the virus to China, pushing the story globally through inserts in newspapers such as the Helsinki Times in Finland and the New Zealand Herald.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/anatomy-of-a-conspiracy-with-covid-china-took-leading-role-20210215-p572ow.html

Their cars might be rubbish but they’re up there with Russia when it comes to manipulating social and mainstream media.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 23, 2021, 12:11:54 pm
On this point, though, they were fighting fire with fire. Good on them for fighting back against disinformation with disinformation.

No doubt a very good case can be mounted that China should have done more to lockdown the early outbreak and should have done more to warn the international community. But Trump showed that cover-ups and minimising the risks wasn’t just part of his own playbook - it was his whole playbook. How the US could cry foul is beyond me, particularly as Trump had pulled out the US epidemiologist who was embedded in the Chinese pandemic response team just prior to the outbreak.

Does that mean other countries like Australia don’t have a right to complain? No, but: Superpower! Now, China matches the US for power and exceptionalism. What do we want to achieve by holding the Chinese to account? They’re not going to pay reparations or allow an international team to come into China to surveil their future pandemic responses. If we want the latter, we’ll need to win a war against them and then impose inspections à la Iraq. Hell, we can’t even expect an apology.

But returning to my first point, labelling Covid by its country of origin has been actively discouraged by epidemiologists. Doing so plays into the hands of racists and increases attacks on Asians. Anyone seen the video of the elderly Thai-American who was crash-tackled while walking on a footpath with such force he died? Or a picture of another Asian-American who has a large scar from 1 side of his face to the other after being slashed with a box-cutter? Hopefully, we have less to fear as we don’t have Trump’s terrorist army to deal with but the risk remains.

That just deals with the coronavirus. Of course, China has chosen to bully Australia and that naturally inspires anger. The blame for that is squarely China’s.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 23, 2021, 01:41:52 pm
I see Craig Kelly has bug out of the Coalition to the crossbench, he thinks he is Australia's Donald! ;D

You'll see a heap of this prior to the next election, wannabes who think they can be king off the back of radicals, it will be interesting to see how they survive in a compulsory voting system. Voter fragmentation will ultimately become an issue, so you find more and more cooperation between the main parties.

Personally, we need to make them responsible for their rhetoric, and send a few to the wall for the trouble they cause. But, I can see it happening as politicians are too sensitive to changes that might come back to bite them!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 23, 2021, 02:59:14 pm
I see Craig Kelly has bug out of the Coalition to the crossbench, he thinks he is Australia's Donald! ;D

You'll see a heap of this prior to the next election, wannabes who think they can be king off the back of radicals, it will be interesting to see how they survive in a compulsory voting system. Voter fragmentation will ultimately become an issue, so you find more and more cooperation between the main parties.

Personally, we need to make them responsible for their rhetoric, and send a few to the wall for the trouble they cause. But, I can see it happening as politicians are too sensitive to changes that might come back to bite them!

The collective IQ of the crossbench has just taken a massive hit and common sense is now all but absent.  On a brighter note, the chances of the Member for Hughes being re-elected are very slim.  That should see a significant lift in collective IQ of our national parliament and a similar boost to its powers of reason   :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on February 23, 2021, 11:31:49 pm
Craig Kelly took an IQ test and celebrated his negative result!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on February 24, 2021, 08:11:58 am
A positive Covid story with a number of very humourous twists. I saw the article in the NYT and today it popped up in The Age - so due acknowledgement to these two publications.

A story to warm the cockles...

Ask Lucia DeClerck how she has lived to be 105, and she is quick with an answer.

“Prayer. Prayer. Prayer,” she offers. “One step at a time. No junk food.”

Lucia DeClerck, 105, said her secret to a long life was simple. “Prayer. Prayer. Prayer,” she said. “One step at a time. No junk food.”
But surviving the coronavirus, she said, also may have had something to do with another staple: the nine gin-soaked golden raisins she has eaten each morning for most of her life.

“Fill a jar,” she explained. “Nine raisins a day after it sits for nine days.”

Her children and grandchildren recall the ritual as just one of DeClerck’s endearing lifelong habits, like drinking aloe juice straight from the container and brushing her teeth with baking soda. (That worked, too: She did not have a cavity until she was 99, relatives said.)

“We would just think, ‘Grandma, what are you doing? You’re crazy’,” said her 53-year-old granddaughter, Shawn Laws O’Neil, of Los Angeles. “Now the laugh is on us. She has beaten everything that’s come her way.”
It is a long list. Born in 1916 in Hawaii to parents who came from Guatemala and Spain, she lived through the Spanish flu, two world wars and the deaths of three husbands and a son.

She moved to Wyoming, California and back to Hawaii before finally arriving in New Jersey, where she lived with her oldest son. After turning 90, she moved to an adult community in Manahawkin, New Jersey, along the Jersey Shore, where she remained active until she injured herself in a fall about four years ago.

“She is just the epitome of perseverance,” O’Neil said. “Her mind is so sharp. She will remember things when I was a kid that I don’t even remember.”

DeClerck, the oldest resident of her South Jersey nursing home, learned that she had contracted the virus on her 105th birthday, January 25, the day after she had gotten her second dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to Michael Neiman, the home’s administrator.

At first, she said she was scared. She did not like being isolated, and she missed the daily chatter from the parade of caregivers at Mystic Meadows Rehabilitation and Nursing, a 120-bed facility in Little Egg Harbour.

She showed few symptoms, Neiman said. And within two weeks she was back in her room, holding her rosary beads and wearing her trademark sunglasses and knit hat.

To her two surviving sons, five grandchildren, 12 great-grandchildren and 11 great-great grandchildren, who call her Grandma Lucia, she has a new moniker, O’Neil said: “The 105-year-old badass who kicked COVID.”

On Monday, she got a shout-out from Governor Phil Murphy, who described a phone call with her during a coronavirus news briefing.

“What an uplifting conversation,” the Governor said.

DeClerck’s family gathered in January 2020 at Mystic Meadows to celebrate her 104th birthday before the onset of the pandemic. When they learned that she had contracted the virus, they braced for the worst.

“We were very concerned,” her son, Phillip Laws, 78, said.

“But she’s got a tenacity that is unbelievable,” he added. “And she’s got that rosary – all the time.”

A devout Catholic, DeClerck led rosary prayers each week at the nursing home and, before the pandemic, was a fixture at weekly Mass.

She raised three sons and ran a corner store for decades with her first husband, Henry Laws jnr, in Los Angeles. She married twice more after returning to Hawaii, where she worked as a home health aide and welcomed grandchildren for summer-long visits.

As the Australian Government rolls out its ambitious COVID-19 vaccination plan, who will get vaccinated first? And what vaccine will they get?

DeClerck is one of 62 residents of Mystic Meadows to have contracted the virus; four patients died, including three who were receiving hospice care, Neiman said.

“We’re as careful as possible,” he said, “but this finds a way of sneaking in.”

In January, residents were being tested twice a week, and a rapid test in the last week of the month showed that DeClerck had contracted the virus.

“At first she was a little apprehensive, a little scared, but she said, ‘God will protect me’,” Neiman said.

She had also been vaccinated, which most likely contributed to her recovery. The first studies of Britain’s mass inoculation program showed strong evidence on Monday that even one dose of vaccine can help slash coronavirus-related hospitalisations.

DeClerck is not the oldest person to beat the virus.

Europe’s oldest-known resident, Sister André, contracted the virus at 116. She celebrated with a glass of champagne on her 117th birthday earlier this month at a nursing home in Toulon, a city in south-eastern France.

Like Sister André, DeClerck may be ready for a toast.

But it is likely to involve gin and a handful of golden raisins. Her family is following suit.

“Now all of us are rushing out and getting Mason jars and yellow raisins and trying to catch up,” O’Neil said.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on February 24, 2021, 08:19:26 am
Craig Kelly took an IQ test and celebrated his negative result!

 :))  :))  :))  :))  :)) ...and apparently he spelt his name incorrectly on the test...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 24, 2021, 09:46:01 am
:))  :))  :))  :))  :)) ...and apparently he spelt his name incorrectly on the test...

According to Crage, he got his name right; everyone else is mistaken  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 24, 2021, 05:12:52 pm
Read a story on the ABC about two aged care residents who were given 4 times the dose of the Pfizer vaccine.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-24/coronavirus-queensland-vaccine-overdose-aged-care-brisbane/13179280

Hopefully nothing untoward occurs here.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on February 24, 2021, 06:23:45 pm
Read a story on the ABC about two aged care residents who were given 4 times the dose of the Pfizer vaccine.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-24/coronavirus-queensland-vaccine-overdose-aged-care-brisbane/13179280

Hopefully nothing untoward occurs here.



The doctor was untrained in administering the vaccine... WTF  :o  :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 24, 2021, 07:15:53 pm
The doctor was untrained in administering the vaccine... WTF  :o  :o
Just like the security guards in Vic Hotel Quarantine 1.0 weren't trained, how Hotels in general aren't suitable environments for proper quarantine control.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 24, 2021, 07:34:03 pm
Just like the security guards in Vic Hotel Quarantine 1.0 weren't trained, how Hotels in general aren't suitable environments for proper quarantine control.

Its ok, they were saying they are going to use Robots in hotel quarantine now.

What could possibly go wrong?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on February 24, 2021, 07:38:01 pm
Its ok, they were saying they are going to use Robots in hotel quarantine now.

What could possibly go wrong?

Daleks?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 24, 2021, 07:49:50 pm
Its ok, they were saying they are going to use Robots in hotel quarantine now.

What could possibly go wrong?
Saw that article lol
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 26, 2021, 11:45:18 am
It's amazing how long it can take for close contacts to show up as positive, the latency in this virus, what is it now 3 weeks since the primary detection and we get new cases in close contacts. That is probably way beyond 14 days!

Keep in mind that if you get a vaccine shot, it takes 2 to 3 weeks to deliver the benefits, apparently this is somehow related to how long the body takes to formulate memory T cells, and why the second shot has to be delayed by some interval to maximise the memory T cell response which is a big contributor to long term resistance.

For those interested, apparently the Pfizer vaccine maximise antibody response while the AstraZeneca vaccine maximise T cell response, which is why some are now promoting cross vaccination as a better solution long term solution. This issue of T cell formation is also a contributing reason why it appears delaying the second shot delivers and stronger result.

Nice analogy;
Think of antibodies as the bureaucrats and politicians that try to avoid a war, and the T cells as the soldiers that fight one if it breaks out! You build the army under the perception of future threats.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 26, 2021, 12:29:39 pm
What I don't get is why you can't at least ask which vaccine you're receiving.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 26, 2021, 12:40:39 pm
The vulnerable and important will get the Pfizer. The rest of us will get the B grade vaccine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 26, 2021, 12:55:41 pm
The vulnerable and important will get the Pfizer. The rest of us will get the B grade vaccine.
The illness prevention efficacy of each is similar long term, in that both are apparently reporting almost perfect efficacy for prevention of serious symptoms and illness. The figures we see quoted in the media are complex and grossly simplified, because they are combination of resistance, detention and prevention. The media think you are too dumb to understand the full details, so they deliver a simplified version.

Also, the media are often politically motivated, or perhaps some journalists or editors have shares in one or the other company. It's ironic that the media will demand transparency over conflicts of interest from politicians and bureaucrats, but do not declare their own! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 26, 2021, 01:14:45 pm
The media are not the ones who have made the decision to not give the AstraZ vaccine to the elderly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 26, 2021, 01:43:59 pm
The media are not the ones who have made the decision to not give the AstraZ vaccine to the elderly.
Do we actually have AstraZeneca vaccine available yet, is there really a choice?

btw., There may be good reasons for that, I do not know specifics about these vaccines as such but I have read that vaccines can work differently dependant on age. For examples some vaccines do not work at all in young children but work in adults, and vice versa some work in kids but not adults. A good example is perhaps the Whooping Cough vaccine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 26, 2021, 05:05:51 pm
I'd be waiting for the Novavax....
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4408574-12-reasons-novavax-beats-pfizer-for-titles-of-best-covid-vaccine-and-best-covid-vaccine-stock
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 11, 2021, 07:28:53 am
The media are not the ones who have made the decision to not give the AstraZ vaccine to the elderly.

A few politicians have decided to get the AstraZ to show that it's safe including Greg Hunt who is now in hospital with an "infection".

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 11, 2021, 09:04:26 am
A few politicians have decided to get the AstraZ to show that it's safe including Greg Hunt who is now in hospital with an "infection".



The science shows its perfectly fine and any "other" reactions are due to correlation not causation...

NOTE: I am being deliberately facetious when I state that.  I expect no honesty when there is so much at stake globally.  What I find really interesting is that a country like Greece has been vaccinating already, and yet we are seeing a 3rd wave daily spike as high as ever.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 11, 2021, 09:39:01 am
The science shows its perfectly fine and any "other" reactions are due to correlation not causation...

NOTE: I am being deliberately facetious when I state that.  I expect no honesty when there is so much at stake globally.  What I find really interesting is that a country like Greece has been vaccinating already, and yet we are seeing a 3rd wave daily spike as high as ever.

Is there a difference between "mainstream" science and "proper" science and how can we tell the difference. when political agendas are in play?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2021, 09:45:13 am
A few politicians have decided to get the AstraZ to show that it's safe including Greg Hunt who is now in hospital with an "infection".
A bacterial infection.

To date, more than 320 million doses of COVID vaccine have now been issued globally with zero attributed deaths!

All the vaccines show 100% efficacy when preventing severe cases of SARS-CoV-2. Effectiveness at preventing transmission is still unknown and will be unknown for many more weeks or months.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2021, 09:57:44 am
The science shows its perfectly fine and any "other" reactions are due to correlation not causation...

NOTE: I am being deliberately facetious when I state that.  I expect no honesty when there is so much at stake globally.  What I find really interesting is that a country like Greece has been vaccinating already, and yet we are seeing a 3rd wave daily spike as high as ever.
To date Greece has hardly vaccinated anybody, and most of the vaccinations have come in the last 30 days, it takes 2 to 4 weeks for vaccinations to build T-Cell memory and immunity.

(https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4922.0;attach=987)

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 11, 2021, 09:59:27 am
Sunrise’s caption:

Sick Hunt in Hospital  ::)

It’s not surprising that media outlets are running the line, “his condition is not believed to be linked to receiving a COVID vaccine.”  Responsible journalism would see the statement, “Minister Hunt has a bacterial infection that is not linked to his recent COVID vaccination.”
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 11, 2021, 10:05:56 am
Not buying it. With rushed vaccines you're going to have problems and AstraZ has problems.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2021, 10:09:24 am
Not buying it. With rushed vaccines you're going to have problems and AstraZ has problems.
You don't have to buy it, it's free, cheaper than a funeral! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 11, 2021, 12:11:14 pm
What concerns me is the fact that we’re 75% behind the vaccination target set by Scotty from marketing - presumably on advice from health officials.

While there’s no great urgency from a public health perspective, provided folk can cope with further lockdowns, economic recovery is very much linked to the certainty provided by immunity.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 11, 2021, 12:24:53 pm
I'm happy with that, especially with concerns over the Astrazenca vaccine in other countries.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 11, 2021, 12:34:01 pm
Just to quote LP from a different thread, pretending the vaccine science is settled is rather unscientific isnt it?

NOTE:  I am not going to reject my vaccine when my time is up to get it.  I dont like it, and I am free to not like it, and I am thankful that Italy and France have blocked the vaccines from arriving which is causing the delays as mentioned by DJC, BUT I am free to be skeptical about it and am going to be until its proven otherwise.

Food for thought, my brother had his first AstraZ vax on friday.  Spent the whole weekend in bed sick.  Not that there is anything to do in London currently but he has never felt so sick in his life.  THAT is cause for some concern, and he thinks he has had covid (not that they tested him, but they told him to isolate because his coughing was so bad he went to hospital with a ruptured blood vessel in his throat, and they still didnt test him likely because they needed to flip him through the system quickly and he wasnt in dire need of hospitilisation.

THAT is the sort of thing we are NOT being told publically.  Is he counted as COVID positive do you think?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 11, 2021, 12:46:05 pm
How old is your brother Thry?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2021, 12:55:36 pm
Just to quote LP from a different thread, pretending the vaccine science is settled is rather unscientific isnt it?

NOTE:  I am not going to reject my vaccine when my time is up to get it.  I dont like it, and I am free to not like it, and I am thankful that Italy and France have blocked the vaccines from arriving which is causing the delays as mentioned by DJC, BUT I am free to be skeptical about it and am going to be until its proven otherwise.

Food for thought, my brother had his first AstraZ vax on friday.  Spent the whole weekend in bed sick.  Not that there is anything to do in London currently but he has never felt so sick in his life.  THAT is cause for some concern, and he thinks he has had covid (not that they tested him, but they told him to isolate because his coughing was so bad he went to hospital with a ruptured blood vessel in his throat, and they still didnt test him likely because they needed to flip him through the system quickly and he wasnt in dire need of hospitilisation.

THAT is the sort of thing we are NOT being told publically.  Is he counted as COVID positive do you think?
If you don't get a reaction to the vaccine, it is not working. You have to get a sore arm, or a slight fever, a runny nose or something to show signs of an immune reaction, it's not a magical mystery invisible shield. It gives you a little of what it protects you from so you don't get a lot! You could tell your brother the full COVID-19 might be the same symptoms potentially wound up to the point of death!

Science is never settled, only fools think it is, and you won't find me writing that the science is settled anywhere, and scepticism is healthy as long as it is supported by suitable evidence. because new discoveries, new evidence, new knowledge changes the science.

I just think you need more than typical vaccine reactions to justify not getting vaccinated. people claim they get flu from the Influenza vaccine, well they do, that is how it works, but that flu doesn't kill them. And your reaction has to be more than a coincidence as well, there are so so many now vaccinated, and hardly an adverse reaction recorded.

If you gave 320 Million a dose of CoVID-19 instead of the COVID-19 vaccine, about 300,000 people would be dead within the first 28 days with more deaths to follow over the next few months!

Which is the whole point, that a weekend in bed is not worse than the ICU or death, well at least not for rational people! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 11, 2021, 01:12:50 pm
What concerns me is the fact that we’re 75% behind the vaccination target set by Scotty from marketing - presumably on advice from health officials.
Forgive me because I cannot recall the exact numbers, but someone did the math on how many vaccinations we had to do per day to get whatever target was named for pater on the year.
We were doing less than 20% of the daily target needed to achieve the goals. No hope of achieving targets.

To get your head around what that means, after 5 days of vaccinations, we are 4 days behind. Repeat. Repeat. How do catch up from that??
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2021, 01:14:21 pm
To get your head around what that means, after 5 days of vaccinations, we are 4 days behind. Repeat. Repeat. How do catch up from that??
It won't be linear though, the current rate depends on the vaccine availability and target priorities, we aren't in a general phase yet.

Even so, there is good reason to be concerned, it's not just a 60s process. Like any vaccine you have to remain in the treatment area for 15mins, to ensure no syncope or allergic reactions occur after you've left the vicinity of medical professionals. Any vaccine is the same.

To treat any number of people clinics will need to be setup to deal with the holding time, while nurses vaccinate at significantly high rates. I think you'll find eventually it is also in pharmacies and purpose built sites.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 11, 2021, 01:24:31 pm
Just to quote LP from a different thread, pretending the vaccine science is settled is rather unscientific isnt it?

NOTE:  I am not going to reject my vaccine when my time is up to get it.  I dont like it, and I am free to not like it, and I am thankful that Italy and France have blocked the vaccines from arriving which is causing the delays as mentioned by DJC, BUT I am free to be skeptical about it and am going to be until its proven otherwise.

Food for thought, my brother had his first AstraZ vax on friday.  Spent the whole weekend in bed sick.  Not that there is anything to do in London currently but he has never felt so sick in his life.  THAT is cause for some concern, and he thinks he has had covid (not that they tested him, but they told him to isolate because his coughing was so bad he went to hospital with a ruptured blood vessel in his throat, and they still didnt test him likely because they needed to flip him through the system quickly and he wasnt in dire need of hospitilisation.

THAT is the sort of thing we are NOT being told publically.  Is he counted as COVID positive do you think?

Nothing wrong with being sceptical Thry.  I think it’s a very sensible and healthy approach to take!

It would be interesting to know if your brother’s symptoms are causal or coincidental, as you mentioned in an earlier post.  I wonder if his reaction will be incorporated into the ongoing studies.

I hope he is feeling better soon.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 11, 2021, 01:27:01 pm
@LP

I'm an overseas  forum participant with many hundreds of English members.  Covid is naturally on everyone's mind.   Every last one of them had some reaction, ranging from really sore arm to lethargy to a day or two in bed.  I wouldn't have expected any less
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2021, 01:29:08 pm
@LP

I'm an overseas  forum participant with many hundreds of English members.  Covid is naturally on everyone's mind.  Every last one of them had some reaction, ranging from really sore arm to lethargy to a day or two in bed.  I wouldn't have expected any less
And that is the way it has to be for a vaccine to work!

PS: @Thryleon asked why they haven't tested his brother for COVID-19, of course just after vaccination, when you start to get an immune reaction you'll have antibodies and of course you'll test positive. So the test is somewhat pointless, they've already given you a light dose, without a count of the viral load which is really only done to those in quarantine or hospital for a confirmed COVID-19 infection they couldn't tell if it was the vaccine or if you coincidentally already had COVID-19.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 11, 2021, 01:34:09 pm
I have had the flu shot every year since 2002 and have never got sick.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2021, 01:37:35 pm
I have had the flu shot every year since 2002 and have never got sick.
Millions are in the same boat, as are millions of COVID-19 vaccinated, but some do suffer, some will just get a sore spot at the site or a runny nose and think nothing of it. It won't even be enough to associate the symptoms with the vaccine.

We had one of the office staff faint last year getting the flu shot, they'd had it before manty times but this time they developed syncope. Ironically the doctor on that day thought it was all the stress related to reading about COVID and COVID vaccinations. The power of mind over body? :o

PS: We should not ignore EU politics and bureaucracy in all this vaccine argy-bargy, there is blame to shift, smoke-screens to set and compensation dollars to be won! For every little bit of doubt sown about one vaccine, a dozen alternate suppliers step forward!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 11, 2021, 02:39:06 pm
I have had the flu shot every year since 2002 and have never got sick.
I've had it once and got sick once. I'll take my chances
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 11, 2021, 03:22:29 pm
I have had the flu shot every year since 2002 and have never got sick.
I have been crook EVERY time I've had it, some worse than others. My wife also has pretty bad reactions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2021, 03:31:01 pm
I have been crook EVERY time I've had it, some worse than others. My wife also has pretty bad reactions.
I can't recall getting seriously ill, I know people do, I have got head cold type sniffles a few times and once I had some arm nerve pain but they said that was most likely caused by the needle hitting a nerve and not the vaccine.

Of course injections aren't all the same, and different vaccines require different protocols. Some are subcutaneous while others may be intramuscular, I'm not sure if any vaccines are intravenous but it's possible.

I believe they are now working on a general purpose broad spectrum Coronavirus vaccine that will be a tablet, however, just because it's not an injection doesn't mean it will be safer. However, the plus side is they think it will work for the common cold as well!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 11, 2021, 03:35:17 pm
How old is your brother Thry?
He's 46.

He described typical Covid symptoms.  Fever, sore throat, runny nose.  Symptoms persisted for 48 hours and he stayed in bed the whole time except post vaccine without the cough he had when he ruptured the blood vessel in his throat.   Has been to hospital twice since November.


And that is the way it has to be for a vaccine to work!

PS: @Thryleon asked why they haven't tested his brother for COVID-19, of course just after vaccination, when you start to get an immune reaction you'll have antibodies and of course you'll test positive. So the test is somewhat pointless, they've already given you a light dose, without a count of the viral load which is really only done to those in quarantine or hospital for a confirmed COVID-19 infection they couldn't tell if it was the vaccine or if you coincidentally already had COVID-19.

His ruptured blood vessel in his throat was back in December.

To date, he confirms as having had COVID, and yet never got tested.

They are guessing he had covid because his first hospitalisation wasnt because of COVID, his second might have been, but either way they didnt test him, but confirmed he had it and told him to isolate.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2021, 03:39:14 pm
He's 46.

He described typical Covid symptoms.  Fever, sore throat, runny nose.  Symptoms persisted for 48 hours and he stayed in bed the whole time except post vaccine without the cough he had when he ruptured the blood vessel in his throat.  Has been to hospital twice since November.


His ruptured blood vessel in his throat was back in December.

To date, he confirms as having had COVID, and yet never got tested.

They are guessing he had covid because his first hospitalisation wasnt because of COVID, his second might have been, but either way they didnt test him, but confirmed he had it and told him to isolate.
I'm sorry to hear he's not been well, I suppose those actions you describe from the medical staff are just the failsafe defaults for all potential cases.

I wonder if he would be counted in official figures, I heard the other day on radio an epidemiologist from Melbourne Uni stating we only really detect and count about 1/3 of total cases. I presume that would be typical in western societies, the detection rate might be far lower in some locations.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 11, 2021, 03:42:39 pm
^^

Possibly.

That doesn't fill many with confidence when they report daily numbers though, considering even the tests have their limitations on accuracy.

If they are counting people with flu like symptoms that dont need hospitalisation as covid positive, then what does that mean for the stats on positive cases?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2021, 03:54:23 pm
^^

Possibly.

That doesn't fill many with confidence when they report daily numbers though, considering even the tests have their limitations on accuracy.

If they are counting people with flu like symptoms that dont need hospitalisation as covid positive, then what does that mean for the stats on positive cases?
I don't know @Thryleon‍, the infection like most infections is a spectrum, but I'm not sure the accuracy of counting infections impacts the accuracy on the counting of the dead.

Let's hope your brother, and others like him, and now safe in the short and long term. My best friend now volunteers as a Marshall one day per week at a UK football stadium which has been turned into a massive vaccination hub, these are unpaid volunteers, just trying to do the right thing. Relying on the fact they've so far had a single jab to immunise themselves against the worst of COVID. All I can say for their sake and all of us, is that I hope the science works.

There is a difference of course, for us we are unlikely to know anyone who has perished from COVID, over there within his own social circle he knows of dozens, mostly elderly parents or grandparents!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 12, 2021, 08:59:15 am
And so it begins....

https://www.3aw.com.au/iceland-norway-and-denmark-suspend-astrazeneca-vaccine-rollout/

https://www.globalresearch.ca/urgent-open-letter-from-doctors-scientists-european-medicines-agency-regarding-covid-19-vaccine-safety-concerns/5739571
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 12, 2021, 09:04:42 am
And the research says that it’s all good:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00528-6/fulltext
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 12, 2021, 09:06:15 am
And the research says that it’s all good:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00528-6/fulltext

It does nothing of the sort.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 12, 2021, 09:31:25 am
The actions in the EU are about politics and money, nothing to do with science, efficacy or safety.

The reports use words like "may have' or "associated" to infer causation without stating it, they can't state it because it doesn't exist and they risk litigation if the publish false claims.

They sow doubt without delivering supporting evidence for the allegations they make, and when you point that out, they link you to further articles full of more opinions and zero evidence. You can link to a billion wrong opinions, they are still wrong, but despite being scientifically worthless those opinions are powerful political tools.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 12, 2021, 09:39:44 am
in your opinion.

The whole vaccine thing is about "politics and money".

This whole 'pandemic' could have been dealt with a year ago if the powers that be hadn't sidelined (as they needed to do to get the EUAs) numerous repurposed drug treatments.

You can bleat till the cows come home that HCQ and Ivermectin treatments/protocols don't work but that is BS - as the data clearly shows, if treated before the viral replication process gets in full swing.

Who would have thought to fight an illness early in the cycle ie pre hospitalisation?! Madness.  ;)

Fauci and his clowns knew about this since 2005.

And Fauci has form with HIV/AIDS - almost the same play sheet.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 12, 2021, 09:45:13 am
The actions in the EU are about politics and money, nothing to do with science, efficacy or safety.

The reports use words like "may have' or "associated" to infer causation without stating it, they can't state it because it doesn't exist and they risk litigation if the publish false claims.

They sow doubt without delivering supporting evidence for the allegations they make, and when you point that out, they link you to further articles full of more opinions and zero evidence. You can link to a billion wrong opinions, they are still wrong, but despite being scientifically worthless those opinions are powerful political tools.

By the by, it's terrific that you know better than the governments of three Nordic nations!

It's pretty obvious the Health minister Hunt has had an 'adverse event' reaction to the vaccine.

Be 'funny' (not in a laughing way, maybe ironic) if Dopey Dan has suffered the same fate!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 12, 2021, 09:49:02 am
in your opinion.
The vaccine rollout is now at more than 320 Million people and the benefit in areas with high coverage like Israel are unquestionable as infection rates and hospitalisation plummet, you can't ignore the numbers and it is all delivered at the minute fraction of the cost for worthless treatments like HCQ and Ivermectin.

Even Trump knew that which is why he bid for exclusive access to the vaccines for the USA, a total amount that was about 1/1000th the cost of the treatment he received if it were given to the average person needing care, his actions expose the worthless value of his words.

That's not opinion it's now history! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 12, 2021, 09:50:41 am
By the by, it's terrific that you know better than the governments of three Nordic nations!

It's pretty obvious the Health minister Hunt has had an 'adverse event' reaction to the vaccine.

Be 'funny' (not in a laughing way, maybe ironic) if Dopey Dan has suffered the same fate!
The conspiracists are victims of correlation, positive reinforcement of a coincidence, who can't set their mind free of it and it has trapped them in misery!

Unfortunately, as everyday goes by the foolishness of those still peddling the HCQ and Ivermectin type claims grows greater and greater, almost exponentially. It's the little boy still holding his finger in the dyke to stop the flood, but the big people drained the dam long ago! The wall of vaccine derived immunity grows bigger and more resilient, every day at a staggering rate, a marvel of science and engineering.

The sky is no longer falling, the sun still shines, go outside and fell the warmth on your face, .............. but take a mask as you'll never know who you might stand next to! ;)

I'll never understand why, as millions are saved by the day, that the naysayers misery still grows. Perhaps they did their dough on some dodgy imports! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 12, 2021, 11:17:18 am
The conspiracists are victims of correlation, positive reinforcement of a coincidence, who can't set their mind free of it and it has trapped them in misery!

Unfortunately, as everyday goes by the foolishness of those still peddling the HCQ and Ivermectin type claims grows greater and greater, almost exponentially. It's the little boy still holding his finger in the dyke to stop the flood, but the big people drained the dam long ago! The wall of vaccine derived immunity grows bigger and more resilient, every day at a staggering rate, a marvel of science and engineering.

The sky is no longer falling, the sun still shines, go outside and fell the warmth on your face, .............. but take a mask as you'll never know who you might stand next to! ;)

I'll never understand why, as millions are saved by the day, that the naysayers misery still grows. Perhaps they did their dough on some dodgy imports! :o


Ad hominem attacks reflects poorly on you, no one else.

I recall the day when the role of science was to question and test the established paradigms.

No if any one dares to, they are marginalised.

But of course you know more than this guy too (Professor of Epidemiology, Yale School of Public Health, Harvey Risch)?

Quote
So what did I find about hydroxychloroquine in early use among high-risk outpatients? The first
thing is that hydroxychloroquine is exceedingly safe. Common sense tells us this, that a
medication safely used for 65 years by hundreds of millions of people in tens of billions of doses
worldwide, prescribed without routine screening EKGs, given to adults, children, pregnant
women and nursing mothers, must be safe when used in the initial viral-replication phase of an
illness that is similar at that point to colds or flu. In fact, a study by researchers at the
University of Oxford showed that in 14 large international medical-records databases of older
rheumatoid arthritis patients, no significant differences were seen in all-cause mortality for
patients who did or did not use hydroxychloroquine. The Oxford investigators also looked at
cardiac arrhythmias and found no increase for hydroxychloroquine users. This was in more
than 900,000 hydroxychloroquine users. This is examined at length in my paper in the
American Journal of Epidemiology in May. Now, the FDA posted a warning on July 1 on its
website about hydroxychloroquine used in outpatients, but we can discuss this later; the FDA
has had no systematic evidence in outpatients and erroneously extrapolated from hospital
inpatients to outpatients, what I said earlier was invalid.

About studies of hydroxychloroquine early use in high-risk outpatients, every one of them, and
there are now seven studies, has shown significant benefit: 636 outpatients in São Paulo, Brazil;
199 clinic patients in Marseille, France; 717 patients across a large HMO network in Brazil; 226
nursing-home patients in Marseille; 1,247 outpatients in New Jersey; 100 long-term care
institution patients in Andorra (between France and Spain); and 7,892 patients across Saudi
Arabia. All these studies pertain to the early treatment of high-risk outpatients—and all
showed about 50 percent or greater reductions in hospitalization or death. The Saudi study
was a national study and showed 5-fold reduction in mortality for hydroxychloroquine plus zinc
vs zinc alone. Not a single fatal cardiac arrhythmia was reported among these thousands of
patients attributable to the hydroxychloroquine. These are the non-randomized but controlled
trials that have been published.

Now we also know that all of the outpatient randomized controlled trials this year also together
show statistically significant benefit. These six studies comprised generally much younger
patients, only a fraction of whom were at high risk, so they individually had too few
hospitalizations or deaths to be statistically significant. But they all suggested lower risks with
hydroxychloroquine use, and when they were analyzed together in meta-analysis as my
colleagues and I found, this lower risk was statistically significant across the studies.

https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Testimony-Risch-2020-11-19.pdf
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 12, 2021, 11:25:28 am
Health ministers and their more than able lackeys were a fantastic cover for so many premiers who knew they'd never take the fall.  They "listened to the science", kept their people "safe" in an ar$e covering re-election exercise.  And those very same fwits now bitch that the cheap tickets offer don't favour their states.  I'd have given Queensland absolutely nothing !!

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 12, 2021, 11:41:27 am
The conspiracists are victims of correlation, positive reinforcement of a coincidence, who can't set their mind free of it and it has trapped them in misery!

Unfortunately, as everyday goes by the foolishness of those still peddling the HCQ and Ivermectin type claims grows greater and greater, almost exponentially. It's the little boy still holding his finger in the dyke to stop the flood, but the big people drained the dam long ago! The wall of vaccine derived immunity grows bigger and more resilient, every day at a staggering rate, a marvel of science and engineering.

The sky is no longer falling, the sun still shines, go outside and fell the warmth on your face, .............. but take a mask as you'll never know who you might stand next to! ;)

I'll never understand why, as millions are saved by the day, that the naysayers misery still grows. Perhaps they did their dough on some dodgy imports! :o

You really don't get it, do you.

The vaccines, and for that matter, the widespread use of lock downs, should have been the subject of extensive cost-benefit analysis.

Perhaps you don't do that in science world, but in my finance/economics/business world they are front and centre.

Lockdowns - even though we knew better and had the fallout data, we never factored in the cost of the aftermath (other deaths. mental health issues, suicides, familial destruction, SME closures etc.).

Likewise with the vaccine - in Australia - where there never has been a  pandemic - why are we taking an experimental treatment (as it is still in Phase 3 testing) when we have ZERO idea of the short to medium to long term safety issues yet?

The bug will now become endemic, just like influenza, and fluctuate seasonally.

And you obviously never read the Great Barrington Declaration - which is simply the tried and tested pathway of dealing with a pandemic.

Somehow all the rules got changed with this far from novel virus. Why?

The $$$$.

Why did the CDC change the long standing method of reporting deaths in the US in March 2020? Without which, the number of CV19 deaths in the US would have been far, far less?

COVID-19 Data Collection, Comorbidity & Federal Law: A Historical Retrospective

Science, Public Health Policy, and The Law
Volume 2:4-22
October 12, 2020

This is what's funny with you shills - you say 'follow the science, listen to the experts'.

Then science from equally qualified, often more qualified, types gets put up and you go - yeah, nah, ignore that and start attacking the man....again a lot of parallels with the AGW scam.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 12, 2021, 12:05:21 pm
The vaccines, and for that matter, the widespread use of lock downs, should have been the subject of extensive cost-benefit analysis.
If you apply the same fiscal rules to HCQ or Ivermectin they are at least an order of magnitude more expensive than the vaccines and yet still functionally ineffective at treating or preventing COVID-19 infections! Even Trump knew that, which is why he offered $1.4T for the vaccine, a cheap buy! ;)

Our local good outcome results from the efforts of health professionals and authorities, it isn't proof their efforts weren't needed, the argument you pose is a confusion of cause and effect. We don't have widespread infection because of the efforts of health professionals and authorities, not in spite of their efforts! :o

One hospitalisation costs more than hundreds or thousands of vaccinations, if the rumours are correct about Trump's hospitalisation costing north of $300,000, that money could vaccinate 10,000 people. Trump told the world all Americans were going to get access to his treatment!

Ironic that the Nordic countries went down the GBD path and got severely burnt, now they want a vaccine, but not the one they were offered. I heard a scientist talking about the GDB, which he said was fundamentally flawed because from the very beginning it ignores the 101 basics of virology, that mutations and variants can generally only occur in infected people, vaccines stop mutant variants from developing.

Q is dead, killed by 320 Million vaccinations and counting! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 12, 2021, 01:36:24 pm
You really don't get it, do you.

The vaccines, and for that matter, the widespread use of lock downs, should have been the subject of extensive cost-benefit analysis.

Perhaps you don't do that in science world, but in my finance/economics/business world they are front and centre.

Lockdowns - even though we knew better and had the fallout data, we never factored in the cost of the aftermath (other deaths. mental health issues, suicides, familial destruction, SME closures etc.).

Likewise with the vaccine - in Australia - where there never has been a  pandemic - why are we taking an experimental treatment (as it is still in Phase 3 testing) when we have ZERO idea of the short to medium to long term safety issues yet?

The bug will now become endemic, just like influenza, and fluctuate seasonally.

And you obviously never read the Great Barrington Declaration - which is simply the tried and tested pathway of dealing with a pandemic.

Somehow all the rules got changed with this far from novel virus. Why?

The $$$$.

Why did the CDC change the long standing method of reporting deaths in the US in March 2020? Without which, the number of CV19 deaths in the US would have been far, far less?

COVID-19 Data Collection, Comorbidity & Federal Law: A Historical Retrospective

Science, Public Health Policy, and The Law
Volume 2:4-22
October 12, 2020

This is what's funny with you shills - you say 'follow the science, listen to the experts'.

Then science from equally qualified, often more qualified, types gets put up and you go - yeah, nah, ignore that and start attacking the man....again a lot of parallels with the AGW scam.....


Cherry-picking one or two scientists with a contrary view does not overturn the overwhelming scientific consensus.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 12, 2021, 01:43:45 pm
Cherry-picking one or two scientists with a contrary view does not overturn the overwhelming scientific consensus.

"Consensus" is not science.

Pick a hole in the argument if you can. That's fine by me.

Running with the my expert is better than your expert line is facile. In the extreme.

And there are a lot more than one or two scientists, and very eminent ones at that, with major questions.....they just don't get the air time that shills like Fauci get....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 12, 2021, 01:50:18 pm
If you apply the same fiscal rules to HCQ or Ivermectin they are at least an order of magnitude more expensive than the vaccines and yet still functionally ineffective at treating or preventing COVID-19 infections! Even Trump knew that, which is why he offered $1.4T for the vaccine, a cheap buy! ;)

Our local good outcome results from the efforts of health professionals and authorities, it isn't proof their efforts weren't needed, the argument you pose is a confusion of cause and effect. We don't have widespread infection because of the efforts of health professionals and authorities, not in spite of their efforts! :o

One hospitalisation costs more than hundreds or thousands of vaccinations, if the rumours are correct about Trump's hospitalisation costing north of $300,000, that money could vaccinate 10,000 people. Trump told the world all Americans were going to get access to his treatment!

Ironic that the Nordic countries went down the GBD path and got severely burnt, now they want a vaccine, but not the one they were offered. I heard a scientist talking about the GDB, which he said was fundamentally flawed because from the very beginning it ignores the 101 basics of virology, that mutations and variants can generally only occur in infected people, vaccines stop mutant variants from developing.

Q is dead, killed by 320 Million vaccinations and counting! ;)

Sweden did not get "severely burnt'. You're making up stuff on the fly now.

75% of their 'COVID deaths' were in the care homes and they admit they should have done better in that context, but it got in before they knew what they were dealing with.....at the start.

Other than that, there is ZERO evidence to support a proposition that their approach was worse than the manic lockdown/masking fear mongering crap many other western nations adopted.

And much to suggest it was better.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 12, 2021, 01:54:25 pm
"Consensus" is not science.

Pick a hole in the argument if you can. That's fine by me.

Running with the my expert is better than your expert line is facile. In the extreme.

And there are a lot more than one or two scientists, and very eminent ones at that, with major questions.....they just don't get the air time that shills like Fauci get....

It’s more a matter of running with my thousands of experts rather than your one or two.  Your bloke could be right, but the odds of that are worse than the odds of winning Tattslotto.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 12, 2021, 02:10:59 pm
It’s more a matter of running with my thousands of experts rather than your one or two.  Your bloke could be right, but the odds of that are worse than the odds of winning Tattslotto.

Gees David, that's your best?

Here's the GBD.... but you'd rather back in Fauci and the likes of Soyboy Sutton? Terrific.

https://gbdeclaration.org/

A few of the original signatories. A few lightweights right?

Dr. Martin Kulldorff, professor of medicine at Harvard University, a biostatistician, and epidemiologist with expertise in detecting and monitoring infectious disease outbreaks and vaccine safety evaluations.

Dr. Sunetra Gupta, professor at Oxford University, an epidemiologist with expertise in immunology, vaccine development, and mathematical modeling of infectious diseases.

Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, professor at Stanford University Medical School, a physician, epidemiologist, health economist, and public health policy expert focusing on infectious diseases and vulnerable populations.

Dr. Alexander Walker, principal at World Health Information Science Consultants, former Chair of Epidemiology, Harvard TH Chan School of Public Health, USA

Dr. Andrius Kavaliunas, epidemiologist and assistant professor at Karolinska Institute, Sweden

Dr. Angus Dalgleish, oncologist, infectious disease expert and professor, St. George’s Hospital Medical School, University of London, England

Dr. Anthony J Brookes, professor of genetics, University of Leicester, England

Dr. Annie Janvier, professor of pediatrics and clinical ethics, Université de Montréal and Sainte-Justine University Medical Centre, Canada
Dr. Ariel Munitz, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel

Dr. Boris Kotchoubey, Institute for Medical Psychology, University of Tübingen, Germany

Dr. Cody Meissner, professor of pediatrics, expert on vaccine development, efficacy, and safety. Tufts University School of Medicine, USA
Dr. David Katz, physician and president, True Health Initiative, and founder of the Yale University Prevention Research Center, USA

Dr. David Livermore, microbiologist, infectious disease epidemiologist and professor, University of East Anglia, England

Dr. Eitan Friedman, professor of medicine, Tel-Aviv University, Israel

Dr. Ellen Townsend, professor of psychology, head of the Self-Harm Research Group, University of Nottingham, England

Dr. Eyal Shahar, physician, epidemiologist and professor (emeritus) of public health, University of Arizona, USA
Dr. Florian Limbourg, physician and hypertension researcher, professor at Hannover Medical School, Germany

Dr. Gabriela Gomes, mathematician studying infectious disease epidemiology, professor, University of Strathclyde, Scotland
Dr. Gerhard Krönke, physician and professor of translational immunology, University of Erlangen-Nuremberg, Germany

Dr. Gesine Weckmann, professor of health education and prevention, Europäische Fachhochschule, Rostock, Germany

Dr. Günter Kampf, associate professor, Institute for Hygiene and Environmental Medicine, Greifswald University, Germany

Dr. Helen Colhoun, professor of medical informatics and epidemiology, and public health physician, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

Dr. Jonas Ludvigsson, pediatrician, epidemiologist and professor at Karolinska Institute and senior physician at Örebro University Hospital, Sweden
Dr. Karol Sikora, physician, oncologist, and professor of medicine at the University of Buckingham, England

Dr. Laura Lazzeroni, professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences and of biomedical data science, Stanford University Medical School, USA
Dr. Lisa White, professor of modelling and epidemiology, Oxford University, England

Dr. Mario Recker, malaria researcher and associate professor, University of Exeter, England
Dr. Matthew Ratcliffe, professor of philosophy, specializing in philosophy of mental health, University of York, England

Dr. Matthew Strauss, critical care physician and assistant professor of medicine, Queen’s University, Canada
Dr. Michael Jackson, research fellow, School of Biological Sciences, University of Canterbury, New Zealand
Dr. Michael Levitt, biophysicist and professor of structural biology, Stanford University, USA.
Recipient of the 2013 Nobel Prize in Chemistry.

Dr. Mike Hulme, professor of human geography, University of Cambridge, England

Dr. Motti Gerlic, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel

Dr. Partha P. Majumder, professor and founder of the National Institute of Biomedical Genomics, Kalyani, India

Dr. Paul McKeigue, physician, disease modeler and professor of epidemiology and public health, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
Dr. Rajiv Bhatia, physician, epidemiologist and public policy expert at the Veterans Administration, USA

Dr. Rodney Sturdivant, infectious disease scientist and associate professor of biostatistics, Baylor University, USA
Dr. Salmaan Keshavjee, professor of Global Health and Social Medicine at Harvard Medical School, USA
Dr. Simon Thornley, epidemiologist and biostatistician, University of Auckland, New Zealand
Dr. Simon Wood, biostatistician and professor, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

Dr. Stephen Bremner,professor of medical statistics, University of Sussex, England

Dr. Sylvia Fogel, autism provider and psychiatrist at Massachusetts General Hospital and instructor at Harvard Medical School, USA

Tom Nicholson, Associate in Research, Duke Center for International Development, Sanford School of Public Policy, Duke University, USA
Dr. Udi Qimron, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel

Dr. Ulrike Kämmerer, professor and expert in virology, immunology and cell biology, University of Würzburg, Germany

Dr. Uri Gavish, biomedical consultant, Israel

Dr. Yaz Gulnur Muradoglu, professor of finance, director of the Behavioural Finance Working Group, Queen Mary University of London, England



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 12, 2021, 02:13:38 pm
Sweden did not get "severely burnt'. You're making up stuff on the fly now.
Sweden are not suspending the AstraZeneca vaccine, they publicly stated the benefit far outweighs the risk.

You've tried to build a bridge to lump Sweden in with Norway and Denmark, who in context are the subjects of this discussion, but the bridge collapsed the rest of your case is lost!

Contextus for us hominems! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 12, 2021, 02:15:19 pm
Gees David, that's your best?
I think he had you easily covered.

PS; Nice little list, full of philosophy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 12, 2021, 05:19:42 pm
Gees David, that's your best?

Here's the GBD.... but you'd rather back in Fauci and the likes of Soyboy Sutton? Terrific.

https://gbdeclaration.org/

A few of the original signatories. A few lightweights right?

Dr. Martin Kulldorff, professor of medicine at Harvard University, a biostatistician, and epidemiologist with expertise in detecting and monitoring infectious disease outbreaks and vaccine safety evaluations.

Dr. Sunetra Gupta, professor at Oxford University, an epidemiologist with expertise in immunology, vaccine development, and mathematical modeling of infectious diseases.

Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, professor at Stanford University Medical School, a physician, epidemiologist, health economist, and public health policy expert focusing on infectious diseases and vulnerable populations.

Dr. Alexander Walker, principal at World Health Information Science Consultants, former Chair of Epidemiology, Harvard TH Chan School of Public Health, USA

Dr. Andrius Kavaliunas, epidemiologist and assistant professor at Karolinska Institute, Sweden

Dr. Angus Dalgleish, oncologist, infectious disease expert and professor, St. George’s Hospital Medical School, University of London, England

Dr. Anthony J Brookes, professor of genetics, University of Leicester, England

Dr. Annie Janvier, professor of pediatrics and clinical ethics, Université de Montréal and Sainte-Justine University Medical Centre, Canada
Dr. Ariel Munitz, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel

Dr. Boris Kotchoubey, Institute for Medical Psychology, University of Tübingen, Germany

Dr. Cody Meissner, professor of pediatrics, expert on vaccine development, efficacy, and safety. Tufts University School of Medicine, USA
Dr. David Katz, physician and president, True Health Initiative, and founder of the Yale University Prevention Research Center, USA

Dr. David Livermore, microbiologist, infectious disease epidemiologist and professor, University of East Anglia, England

Dr. Eitan Friedman, professor of medicine, Tel-Aviv University, Israel

Dr. Ellen Townsend, professor of psychology, head of the Self-Harm Research Group, University of Nottingham, England

Dr. Eyal Shahar, physician, epidemiologist and professor (emeritus) of public health, University of Arizona, USA
Dr. Florian Limbourg, physician and hypertension researcher, professor at Hannover Medical School, Germany

Dr. Gabriela Gomes, mathematician studying infectious disease epidemiology, professor, University of Strathclyde, Scotland
Dr. Gerhard Krönke, physician and professor of translational immunology, University of Erlangen-Nuremberg, Germany

Dr. Gesine Weckmann, professor of health education and prevention, Europäische Fachhochschule, Rostock, Germany

Dr. Günter Kampf, associate professor, Institute for Hygiene and Environmental Medicine, Greifswald University, Germany

Dr. Helen Colhoun, professor of medical informatics and epidemiology, and public health physician, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

Dr. Jonas Ludvigsson, pediatrician, epidemiologist and professor at Karolinska Institute and senior physician at Örebro University Hospital, Sweden
Dr. Karol Sikora, physician, oncologist, and professor of medicine at the University of Buckingham, England

Dr. Laura Lazzeroni, professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences and of biomedical data science, Stanford University Medical School, USA
Dr. Lisa White, professor of modelling and epidemiology, Oxford University, England

Dr. Mario Recker, malaria researcher and associate professor, University of Exeter, England
Dr. Matthew Ratcliffe, professor of philosophy, specializing in philosophy of mental health, University of York, England

Dr. Matthew Strauss, critical care physician and assistant professor of medicine, Queen’s University, Canada
Dr. Michael Jackson, research fellow, School of Biological Sciences, University of Canterbury, New Zealand
Dr. Michael Levitt, biophysicist and professor of structural biology, Stanford University, USA.
Recipient of the 2013 Nobel Prize in Chemistry.

Dr. Mike Hulme, professor of human geography, University of Cambridge, England

Dr. Motti Gerlic, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel

Dr. Partha P. Majumder, professor and founder of the National Institute of Biomedical Genomics, Kalyani, India

Dr. Paul McKeigue, physician, disease modeler and professor of epidemiology and public health, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
Dr. Rajiv Bhatia, physician, epidemiologist and public policy expert at the Veterans Administration, USA

Dr. Rodney Sturdivant, infectious disease scientist and associate professor of biostatistics, Baylor University, USA
Dr. Salmaan Keshavjee, professor of Global Health and Social Medicine at Harvard Medical School, USA
Dr. Simon Thornley, epidemiologist and biostatistician, University of Auckland, New Zealand
Dr. Simon Wood, biostatistician and professor, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

Dr. Stephen Bremner,professor of medical statistics, University of Sussex, England

Dr. Sylvia Fogel, autism provider and psychiatrist at Massachusetts General Hospital and instructor at Harvard Medical School, USA

Tom Nicholson, Associate in Research, Duke Center for International Development, Sanford School of Public Policy, Duke University, USA
Dr. Udi Qimron, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel

Dr. Ulrike Kämmerer, professor and expert in virology, immunology and cell biology, University of Würzburg, Germany

Dr. Uri Gavish, biomedical consultant, Israel

Dr. Yaz Gulnur Muradoglu, professor of finance, director of the Behavioural Finance Working Group, Queen Mary University of London, England





The thing is Fly that some scientists, researchers, medicos, etc are more invested in economic and political outcomes than in health outcomes.  Sweden's Anders Tegnall is a prime example but he now admits that his approach was wrong, as do the Swedish King and PM.  Others have religious and/or philosophical beliefs that put them at odds with the results of rigorous scientific research.  What you end up with are opinions and/or declarations that are based on beliefs, not science.

Of course, I can trump your list with one name, Nobel Laureate Peter Doherty.  You should read the Doherty Institute newsletters for informed explanations of the efficacy of the COVID-19 measures.

https://www.doherty.edu.au/ 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 12, 2021, 05:51:06 pm
Forgive me because I cannot recall the exact numbers, but someone did the math on how many vaccinations we had to do per day to get whatever target was named for pater on the year.
We were doing less than 20% of the daily target needed to achieve the goals. No hope of achieving targets.

To get your head around what that means, after 5 days of vaccinations, we are 4 days behind. Repeat. Repeat. How do catch up from that??

As if almost on queue, the government have said they will not reach their target of vaccinating everyone (twice) by their due date (October).
Instead they hope to have everyone vaccinated once in that time.

Essentially cutting their target in half.

At the current pace, they would need to do that again to have a hope of making it, but likely fall just short.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 12, 2021, 06:59:18 pm
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-12/denmark-norway-iceland-suspend-astrazeneca-covid-shots-vaccine/13240984

I think we should suspend use of the Astrazeneca vaccine until more testing is done, South Africa suspended it as well as these other countries mentioned and I'd like to see the results of the more testing these countries are doing before we give it out on mass. If you are on blood thinners or are a clot candidate you should not be given this vaccine and I think anyone over 50 needs to be given any vaccine by their own doctor who has their medical history at hand. Relying on Govt cheapie grad doctors in clinics dangerous IMO and we dont need to wildly rush into mass vaccinations without analyzing whats happening elsewhere in the world first. We are fortunate we can learn from others mistakes and need to take advantage of being later starters in the vaccination process.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 12, 2021, 07:07:14 pm
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-12/denmark-norway-iceland-suspend-astrazeneca-covid-shots-vaccine/13240984

I think we should suspend use of the Astrazeneca vaccine until more testing is done, South Africa suspended it as well as these other countries mentioned and I'd like to see the results of the more testing these countries are doing before we give it out on mass. If you are on blood thinners or are a clot candidate you should not be given this vaccine and I think anyone over 50 needs to be given any vaccine by their own doctor who has their medical history at hand. Relying on Govt cheapie grad doctors in clinics dangerous IMO and we dont need to wildly rush into mass vaccinations without analyzing whats happening elsewhere in the world first. We are fortunate we can learn from others mistakes and need to take advantage of being later starters in the vaccination process.
EB I would have thought if you're on anticoagulants, you should safe from clots.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 12, 2021, 07:18:33 pm
EB I would have thought if you're on anticoagulants, you should safe from clots.
GTC...They dont reduce the effects to zero and if you are on the heavy duty variety like the old rat poison (warfarin) you find you are still able to get clots via interaction with other drugs, food and other underlying conditions.
Like I said only your own GP knows what you are on and as we know with a lot of older folk they take a cocktail of several drugs
which interact differently with each other. My mother in law took warferin, it was a nightmare to manage given her other conditions, dosage changed every week. You dont need a vaccine with possible clot effects adding to that, get one that is proven not to be a potential trigger ie maybe wait for the Novavax..
Are we actually checking people and working out what is the best vaccine to suit them or just randomly jabbing them with whats available?
Would you entertain a long haul flight after a couple of jabs of astrazeneca, you might not even know you are a potential clot candidate...?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 12, 2021, 07:39:16 pm
GTC...They dont reduce the effects to zero and if you are on the heavy duty variety like the old rat poison (warfarin) you find you are still able to get clots via interaction with other drugs, food and other underlying conditions.
Like I said only your own GP knows what you are on and as we know with a lot of older folk they take a cocktail of several drugs
which interact differently with each other. My mother in law took warferin, it was a nightmare to manage given her other conditions, dosage changed every week. You dont need a vaccine with possible clot effects adding to that, get one that is proven not to be a potential trigger ie maybe wait for the Novavax..
Are we actually checking people and working out what is the best vaccine to suit them or just randomly jabbing them with whats available?
Would you entertain a long haul flight after a couple of jabs of astrazeneca, you might not even know you are a potential clot candidate...?
Funny you mention not knowing about being a clot candidate. 2 months ago I ended up in hospital with severe kidney stone pain and whilst scanning for the stone, they found an "old" clot in the portal vein of my liver. So Ive been on a course of Eliquis (apixaban) until it clears. Ive also had tests to see if its genetic or from an old op. I might give the Astrazeneca jab a wide birth even though they reckon there isn't a conclusive link between the clot and the jab..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 12, 2021, 08:12:06 pm
Funny you mention not knowing about being a clot candidate. 2 months ago I ended up in hospital with severe kidney stone pain and whilst scanning for the stone, they found an "old" clot in the portal vein of my liver. So Ive been on a course of Eliquis (apixaban) until it clears. Ive also had tests to see if its genetic or from an old op. I might give the Astrazeneca jab a wide birth even though they reckon there isn't a conclusive link between the clot and the jab..
Sorry to hear you have been ill mate, and hope you are all clear of that kidney stone, clot and on the mend. I'm sure 98-99% of the population will be fine especially younger folk with the astrazeneca vaccine but you dont want to be in that 1-2 % of potential problem candidates without some input from your own medicos on the risks vs benefits and like I said I would prefer my own GP to be doing the vaccinating and being available to monitor reactions etc than some grad doctor who struggles to find a vein or give the correct dose ie like that initial older patient who copped a double dose.
Imagine that was someone inclined to clots and they get a double dose by accident, there has to be more checks and balances other than just asking people to just rock up and accept what is being jabbed into you without proper analysis of your individual health. I'd just be asking your GP/Specialist what they recommend for you rather than being told by a Govt computer what you have been assigned...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 12, 2021, 08:35:36 pm
Sorry to hear you have been ill mate, and hope you are all clear of that kidney stone, clot and on the mend. I'm sure 98-99% of the population will be fine especially younger folk with the astrazeneca vaccine but you dont want to be in that 1-2 % of potential problem candidates without some input from your own medicos on the risks vs benefits and like I said I would prefer my own GP to be doing the vaccinating and being available to monitor reactions etc than some grad doctor who struggles to find a vein or give the correct dose ie like that initial older patient who copped a double dose.
Imagine that was someone inclined to clots and they get a double dose by accident, there has to be more checks and balances other than just asking people to just rock up and accept what is being jabbed into you without proper analysis of your individual health. I'd just be asking your GP/Specialist what they recommend for you rather than being told by a Govt computer what you have been assigned...
100%  EB
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 12, 2021, 09:03:33 pm
You really don't get it, do you.

The vaccines, and for that matter, the widespread use of lock downs, should have been the subject of extensive cost-benefit analysis.

Perhaps you don't do that in science world, but in my finance/economics/business world they are front and centre.

Lockdowns - even though we knew better and had the fallout data, we never factored in the cost of the aftermath (other deaths. mental health issues, suicides, familial destruction, SME closures etc.).

Likewise with the vaccine - in Australia - where there never has been a  pandemic - why are we taking an experimental treatment (as it is still in Phase 3 testing) when we have ZERO idea of the short to medium to long term safety issues yet?

The bug will now become endemic, just like influenza, and fluctuate seasonally.

And you obviously never read the Great Barrington Declaration - which is simply the tried and tested pathway of dealing with a pandemic.

Somehow all the rules got changed with this far from novel virus. Why?

The $$$$.

Why did the CDC change the long standing method of reporting deaths in the US in March 2020? Without which, the number of CV19 deaths in the US would have been far, far less?

COVID-19 Data Collection, Comorbidity & Federal Law: A Historical Retrospective

Science, Public Health Policy, and The Law
Volume 2:4-22
October 12, 2020

This is what's funny with you shills - you say 'follow the science, listen to the experts'.

Then science from equally qualified, often more qualified, types gets put up and you go - yeah, nah, ignore that and start attacking the man....again a lot of parallels with the AGW scam.....


What are you actually trying to achieve with all this, FB? What useful purpose does it serve? Serious questions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 12, 2021, 09:53:17 pm
The thing is Fly that some scientists, researchers, medicos, etc are more invested in economic and political outcomes than in health outcomes.  Sweden's Anders Tegnall is a prime example but he now admits that his approach was wrong, as do the Swedish King and PM.  Others have religious and/or philosophical beliefs that put them at odds with the results of rigorous scientific research.  What you end up with are opinions and/or declarations that are based on beliefs, not science.

Of course, I can trump your list with one name, Nobel Laureate Peter Doherty.  You should read the Doherty Institute newsletters for informed explanations of the efficacy of the COVID-19 measures.

https://www.doherty.edu.au/ 

Tegnell has said no such thing.

He has admitted they made errors in the care homes, that's it. But who didn't?

Attached is a terrific example of the gamesmanship that exemplifies this whole con. They're just not even remotely subtle.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 12, 2021, 11:09:59 pm
So see this stuff rising out of the vaccinations?  This is where my scepticism stems from.

If the prophylactic proves to be more dangerous than the virus then that in itself is reason enough to calm down about the vaccine.

Im a healthy skeptic.  One that understands the virus is not just a flu.  The likelihood of poor outcome is low enough to warrant not vaccinating but high enough to warrant keeping it under control and preventing it spreading.  Id like to see a lot more data about the vax before we continue.

On a side note I had a rather massive dejavu moment earlier today. 

We were setting up the covid testing clinic in our transit lounge one year ago today.

Today we set up the covid vaccination clinic in the exact same way in the exact same transit lounge.

Thing is one year later they haven't learned that any process analyst can see far too many contacts from start to finish for one jab.  Imagine needing 3 staff on 3 different computers to administer one jab and thats without the pharmacists sitting in the next room making up the jabs to administer. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 12, 2021, 11:12:41 pm
Tegnell has said no such thing.

He has admitted they made errors in the care homes, that's it. But who didn't?

Attached is a terrific example of the gamesmanship that exemplifies this whole con. They're just not even remotely subtle.....

It's a bit hard to follow Dr Tegnell's arguments/statements because he changes the goalposts quite often.

To start with, it's worth noting that he was in hot water back in 2009 when he was behind the mass vaccination of Swedes with a vaccine that wasn't approved by the US FDA and was known to cause neurological disorders.  It caused narcolepsy in many Swedish children.

In April 2020, Tegnell stated, “In major parts of Sweden, around Stockholm, we have reached a plateau (in new cases) and we’re already seeing the effect of herd immunity and in a few weeks’ time we’ll see even more of the effects of that. And in the rest of the country, the situation is stable.”

As anyone with a basic knowledge of herd immunity knows, the percentage of the population that has to have contracted a disease or have been vaccinated against it varies according to how infectious it is.  For example it is >90% for measles and probably around 70% for COVID-19.  It's also worth noting that herd immunity for novel viruses has never been achieved by natural infection.

In late October 2020, Tegnell conceded that it would be "futile and immoral for a state to deliberately pursue herd immunity".  Tegnell also stated, "Throughout history there has up to now been no infectious disease whose transmission was fully halted by herd immunity without a vaccine.”

In February 2021, Dr Tegnell told Swedish public radio: "If we were to encounter the same disease again, knowing exactly what we know about it today, I think we would settle on doing something in between what Sweden did and what the rest of the world has done."

If that's not a concession that he was wrong, I don't know what is.

By the way, Sweden, with a population of 10.23M, has had 707K COVID cases and 13,111 deaths.  Neighbours Norway and Denmark, with a combined population of 11.1M, have had 297K COVID cases and 3,032 deaths.  Norway (population 5,3M) has only had 78K cases and 639 deaths.  Whichever way you crunch those numbers, Sweden's approach has been an appalling failure.  Now they are closing the border with Denmark, instituting lockdowns and just over 1M doses of vaccine have been administered.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 13, 2021, 08:25:21 am
https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/no-biological-reason-to-link-blood-clots-to-covid
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 13, 2021, 09:26:12 am
It's a bit hard to follow Dr Tegnell's arguments/statements because he changes the goalposts quite often.

As anyone with a basic knowledge of herd immunity knows, the percentage of the population that has to have contracted a disease or have been vaccinated against it varies according to how infectious it is.  For example it is >90% for measles and probably around 70% for COVID-19. It's also worth noting that herd immunity for novel viruses has never been achieved by natural infection.

In February 2021, Dr Tegnell told Swedish public radio: "If we were to encounter the same disease again, knowing exactly what we know about it today, I think we would settle on doing something in between what Sweden did and what the rest of the world has done."

If that's not a concession that he was wrong, I don't know what is.
Touché
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 13, 2021, 10:14:29 am
It's a bit hard to follow Dr Tegnell's arguments/statements because he changes the goalposts quite often.

To start with, it's worth noting that he was in hot water back in 2009 when he was behind the mass vaccination of Swedes with a vaccine that wasn't approved by the US FDA and was known to cause neurological disorders.  It caused narcolepsy in many Swedish children.

In April 2020, Tegnell stated, “In major parts of Sweden, around Stockholm, we have reached a plateau (in new cases) and we’re already seeing the effect of herd immunity and in a few weeks’ time we’ll see even more of the effects of that. And in the rest of the country, the situation is stable.”

As anyone with a basic knowledge of herd immunity knows, the percentage of the population that has to have contracted a disease or have been vaccinated against it varies according to how infectious it is.  For example it is >90% for measles and probably around 70% for COVID-19.  It's also worth noting that herd immunity for novel viruses has never been achieved by natural infection.

In late October 2020, Tegnell conceded that it would be "futile and immoral for a state to deliberately pursue herd immunity".  Tegnell also stated, "Throughout history there has up to now been no infectious disease whose transmission was fully halted by herd immunity without a vaccine.”

In February 2021, Dr Tegnell told Swedish public radio: "If we were to encounter the same disease again, knowing exactly what we know about it today, I think we would settle on doing something in between what Sweden did and what the rest of the world has done."

If that's not a concession that he was wrong, I don't know what is.

By the way, Sweden, with a population of 10.23M, has had 707K COVID cases and 13,111 deaths.  Neighbours Norway and Denmark, with a combined population of 11.1M, have had 297K COVID cases and 3,0323 deaths.  Norway (population 5,3M) has only had 78K cases and 639 deaths.  Whichever way you crunch those numbers, Sweden's approach has been an appalling failure.  Now they are closing the border with Denmark, instituting lockdowns and just over 1M doses of vaccine have been administered.


Wrong, wrong and wrong. And no, those statements are a direct result of internal political pressures.....on Tegnell.

Quote
As anyone with a basic knowledge of herd immunity knows,

Gee David, get up to speed before you launch with that sort of stuff.

Read some of Gabriela Gomes' work.

The Brit Nic Lewis is onto it too.

https://www.nicholaslewis.org/why-herd-immunity-to-covid-19-is-reached-much-earlier-than-thought-update/

It's all about the heterogeneity of populations.

15% to 20% might even get the job done.....

As for the claim that Sweden has been an appalling failure, again rubbish.

The only ones saying  Sweden is a failure is the MSM - the data does not reflect that at all.

And of course we couldn't acknowledge that the time tested methods, universally deployed, up to the end of 2019, are the optimum path.

Even with Ebola, lockdowns were never recommended., let alone mandated.

Why compare only to small Nordic nations? Strawman stuff.

Against the bigger Euro nations, they have done very well indeed.

I've already put up data on age adjusted excess deaths.....and if you want more on the Nordic comparison.....

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3674138

It's all out there, most just don't do their homework but still feel happy to espouse vacuous claims.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 13, 2021, 10:23:43 am
Here's an interesting table - Sweden barely makes it into the top 20 in Europe yet is an "appalling failure".

When all these other countries ran with draconian lockdowns, masking, et etc - screwed economies, destroyed people's lives and livelihoods etc.

But Sweden is the failure?

You do realise Sweden has a very liberal reporting system too right - in many countries a lot of the Swedish deaths would not be attributed to CV19?

And their economy barely stuttered.

What planet are you guys smoking on?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 13, 2021, 12:00:59 pm
Where there is uncertainty and where you are dealing with an unknown, I would much rather err on the side of caution and be more restrictive. I applaud those governments who have swallowed a few bitter pills and instituted measures that might seem tough, but are trying to save lives. Of course, there is a political element to this, in the sense that governments must appear to be doing something rather than nothing, but the tough love approach in this case is much better than the nonsense dished up in some countries.

The only two ways that the current data is wrong is if the broader scientific community is either corrupt or incompetent.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 13, 2021, 12:13:04 pm
The Brit Nic Lewis is onto it too.

https://www.nicholaslewis.org/why-herd-immunity-to-covid-19-is-reached-much-earlier-than-thought-update/

It's all about the heterogeneity of populations.

15% to 20% might even get the job done.....
This is a confusion of herd immunity with disease severity. Discussing heterogeneity of a virus is discussing the span of the disease throughout diverse communities from asymptomatic to deadly, it has nothing to do with immunity and disease transmission.

Actually it is much the same mistake Tegnell initially made, thinking that asymptomatic infections reduce the impact of the disease, but really they act as a resevoir of disease and mutagens, which is why Sweden is now a full bore vaccination state! If they don't act fast, they could be forked by the end of spring!

With vaccinations there are always risks, with health strategies there is always a cost, the extreme fanatical anti-COVID vaccination and anti-COVID lockdown approach taken by some is bizarre because their unwillingness to see both sides of the argument means they miss the reality completely. They can walk right over a partial valid supporting argument for their postilion, because they only talk want to talk in absolutes no matter how absurd the claims they make might be!

So no cigar again, with a whole barn to throws rocks at it's hard to imagine how someone can keep picking up the same stone and missing completely!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 13, 2021, 12:18:04 pm
Here's an interesting table - Sweden barely makes it into the top 20 in Europe yet is an "appalling failure".

When all these other countries ran with draconian lockdowns, masking, et etc - screwed economies, destroyed people's lives and livelihoods etc.

But Sweden is the failure?

You do realise Sweden has a very liberal reporting system too right - in many countries a lot of the Swedish deaths would not be attributed to CV19?

And their economy barely stuttered.

What planet are you guys smoking on?




55 Cancrie e, but smoking is not allowed on 55 Cancrie e. We developed a vaccine to thwart addiction or the need for hallucinogens.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 13, 2021, 12:24:19 pm
Just going back to Fly's reference to the Great Barrington Declaration.  This declaration was released by a libertarian think tank and a small group of scientists, many of whom have no relevant experience and all of whom have their own particular barrows to push.

The Great Barrington Declaration and the myth of naturally acquired herd immunity is discussed in some detail in Nature:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02948-4

Interestingly, the Nature article quotes a former POTUS's malapropism “herd mentality” and it seems that Auraqngzeb has unwittingly described the libertarian, conspiracy theorist, anti-science approach to the COVID-19 pandemic.

The Great Barrington Declaration has also been exposed as "a dangerous fallacy unsupported by scientific evidence" in Lancet:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32153-X/fulltext
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 13, 2021, 12:31:50 pm
Just going back to Fly's reference to the Great Barrington Declaration.  This declaration was released by a libertarian think tank and a small group of scientists, many of whom have no relevant experience and all of whom have their own particular barrows to push.
@DJC Unfortunately, we like to think scientists and doctors are empathic and heavily invested in the social good, but like any sector of society you can find some portion on a spectrum who prefer self over self-sacrifice. A percentage will always prefer strategies to preserve wealth and privilege over welfare, and fundamentally that is what GBD and others argue, the death of the downtrodden is a necessary sacrifice society must make to ensure the wealthy stay free and privileged. 1%ers, like so many other 1%ers.

You cannot logically debate with them, because they see the world selfishly, their actions belie the meaning of their words.

This is why they also commonly protest masks, not because they can't see the good it does for others, but because they can't bear the inconvenience it does to themselves.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 13, 2021, 12:58:22 pm
@DJC Unfortunately, we like to think scientists and doctors are empathic and heavily invested in the social good, but like any sector of society you can find some portion on a spectrum who prefer self over self-sacrifice. A percentage will always prefer strategies to preserve wealth and privilege over welfare, and fundamentally that is what GBD and others argue, the death of the downtrodden is a necessary sacrifice society must make to ensure the wealthy stay free and privileged. 1%ers, like so many other 1%ers.

You cannot logically debate with them, because they see the world selfishly, their actions belie the meaning of their words.

This is why they also commonly protest masks, not because they can't see the good it does for others, but because they can't bear the inconvenience it does to themselves.

Ah, so many truths in these comments, Spotted One. I would only make one correction and one elaboration.

Instead of the word, 'selfish', I would call it for what it is - narcissism.

The elaboration is with the psychology of the 'far right' type. They're fear based and terrified of losing control and their dangerous, lame and oft pathetic attempts at fighting everything is just to regain some sense of control... which they'll never succeed at whilst they are psychologically fear-based in the brain box.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 13, 2021, 01:27:00 pm
Wrong, wrong and wrong. And no, those statements are a direct result of internal political pressures.....on Tegnell.

Gee David, get up to speed before you launch with that sort of stuff.

Read some of Gabriela Gomes' work.

The Brit Nic Lewis is onto it too.

https://www.nicholaslewis.org/why-herd-immunity-to-covid-19-is-reached-much-earlier-than-thought-update/

It's all about the heterogeneity of populations.

15% to 20% might even get the job done.....

As for the claim that Sweden has been an appalling failure, again rubbish.

The only ones saying  Sweden is a failure is the MSM - the data does not reflect that at all.

And of course we couldn't acknowledge that the time tested methods, universally deployed, up to the end of 2019, are the optimum path.

Even with Ebola, lockdowns were never recommended., let alone mandated.

Why compare only to small Nordic nations? Strawman stuff.

Against the bigger Euro nations, they have done very well indeed.

I've already put up data on age adjusted excess deaths.....and if you want more on the Nordic comparison.....

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3674138

It's all out there, most just don't do their homework but still feel happy to espouse vacuous claims.

One thing about Dr Tegnell is that he doesn't let others put words in his mouth.  His admissions of underestimating herd immunity and taking Sweden down the wrong path are just that, admissions that he was wrong.

It's easy to find one or two folk with dissenting views but I prefer to rely on research published in highly regarded journals.  For example:

Quote
Given an R0 value before lockdowns in most countries of between 2·5 to 3·5, we estimate the herd immunity required is about 60–72%. If the proportional vaccine efficacy, ε, is considered, the simple expression for pc becomes [1 – 1 / R0] / ε. If we assume ε is 0·8 (80%), then the herd immunity required becomes 75–90% for the defined range of R0 values. For lower efficacies, the entire population would have to be immunised. These overall estimates ignore heterogeneities that can make these figures lower or higher in specific locations.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32318-7/fulltext



Why compare Sweden with Norway and Denmark?  I would have thought that was obvious  ::)

Norway, Denmark and Sweden are culturally and geographically Scandinavian, have common borders, the same socioeconomics, shared history, similar social welfare and health systems, and Norway and Sweden have the same climatic constraints.  Fortuitously, Norway and Denmark's combined population is almost equal to Sweden's.  All three countries have strong social contracts and civil obedience is the norm.  Norwegians and Swedes are used to long periods of isolation during long, harsh winters.  Sweden is a little different in that its constitution only permits the declaration of a state of emergency in war time.  In other words, it is comparing apples with apples and far more meaningful than comparing Sweden with Lithuania (204K cases and 3,363 deaths), or the other "herd mentality" countries like England (3.7M cases and 110K deaths) and the USA under Aurangzeb (29M cases and 545K deaths). Of course, Belgium (798K cases and 22.3K deaths) has a similar population to Sweden but its appalling COVID record reflects Belgian holiday destinations, an inadequate first response, an overwhelmed and compromised health system, freedom of movement across borders, and assumed causes of death, as well as a stratified society and infections spreading rapidly through ethic enclaves.

Similarly, there's no point in comparing Sweden with Australia and New Zealand with their natural advantages of ocean barriers to aid border control and, in Australia's case, State borders that can be closed as required.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 13, 2021, 01:56:22 pm
Ah, so many truths in these comments, Spotted One. I would only make one correction and one elaboration.

Instead of the word, 'selfish', I would call it for what it is - narcissism.

The elaboration is with the psychology of the 'far right' type. They're fear based and terrified of losing control and their dangerous, lame and oft pathetic attempts at fighting everything is just to regain some sense of control... which they'll never succeed at whilst they are psychologically fear-based in the brain box.
I didn't want to use the "n" word as I'll be accused of an ad-hominem n-hater attack! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 13, 2021, 02:06:54 pm
A recent epidemiological study comparing Norway and Sweden:

Quote
Norway and Sweden are kindred countries in regards to ethnicity, administrative systems, socioeconomics, and public health care systems. Furthermore, both have reliable, stringent, timely, and comprehensive registration of deaths.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20201116/Study-compares-deaths-in-Sweden-and-Norway-before-and-after-COVID-pandemic.aspx

Interestingly, the study postulates that Sweden's COVID-19 death toll may not be as bad as it appears because the excess mortality rate has not increased.  However, Sweden's mortality rate has been declining for several years and I think it's a case of more research required.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 13, 2021, 02:13:09 pm
A recent epidemiological study comparing Norway and Sweden:

Interestingly, the study postulates that Sweden's COVID-19 death toll may not be as bad as it appears because the excess mortality rate has not increased.  However, Sweden's mortality rate has been declining for several years and I think it's a case of more research required.
You're a patient man @DJC‍ , have you ever been an educator?

Of course, there are lots of possibilities and we cannot draw a conclusion from any recent trends, it will be years before we know the full answers to many of the questions. Drawing too much of a conclusion based on recent events is as bad as claiming there is no global warming after the odd cool summer.

But one aspect of this that cannot be ignored is the statistics, 335M vaccinated and growing at about 15M per day at the moment, and the numbers are really staking up in favour of the mainstream scientists, oddly for both COVID-19 and through the COVID-19 travel restricted emissions reductions exposing the real effect of Global Warming. But as I've just mentioned, above we can confirm the latter until things resume some semblance of normality.

PS; There is a new global health initiative being launched, it's objective is to collect in a standard format verifiable COVID-19 disease and vaccination data that includes useful but anonymized data like age, medications, pre-existing illness, etc., etc., Oddly a few jurisdictions are refusing to participate, Italy, Greece and Spain being the standouts, is it a cultural or political issue that perhaps explains the dire circumstances in some of the dissenting regions? As soon as that site goes live, I will provide links.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 13, 2021, 02:31:13 pm
You're a patient man @DJC‍ , have you ever been an educator?

Yes LP, it's one of the roles I still do from time to time.  I find it very rewarding.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 13, 2021, 02:50:24 pm
Yes LP, it's one of the roles I still do from time to time.  I find it very rewarding.
I'll never have that level of patience or restraint, it's very admirable and extremely important work.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 13, 2021, 02:56:55 pm
 Minister Greg Hunt with Cellulitis which can be linked to blood clots(deep vein thrombosis) three days after the astrazeneca jab....coincidence?  maybe ...or maybe we should suspend use of that vaccine until we know for sure and do more research like these other countries. Scott Morrison has declared it safe but Scotty from marketing forgot to take his economic hat off when he said that.....roll out the Pfizer and Novavax for sure but leave the Astrazeneca in the fridge for more testing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 13, 2021, 03:46:27 pm
30 cases of thromboembolic events have been reported among the five million people vaccinated with the AstraZeneca vaccine in the European Economic Area.  One in every one thousand people in the UK will experience thromboembolic symptoms each year.  We need to find another 4,970 vaccinated folk with thromboembolic symptoms  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 13, 2021, 04:20:54 pm
Yes LP, it's one of the roles I still do from time to time.  I find it very rewarding.

Champ.

Teachers, nurses, GPs, scientists, carers generally... to me, they're the real 'billionaires' of planet Earth. Not in $ terms but in terms of contribution and value.

Do you miss BH? Still lovin' it out west? Still got the creative facial hair design?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 13, 2021, 05:26:52 pm
Champ.

Teachers, nurses, GPs, scientists, carers generally... to me, they're the real 'billionaires' of planet Earth. Not in $ terms but in terms of contribution and value.

Do you miss BH? Still lovin' it out west? Still got the creative facial hair design?
Personally I'd chuck coppers in that group, they deal with all the awful things in our world for two tenths of SFA.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 13, 2021, 05:35:33 pm
Personally I'd chuck coppers in that group, they deal with all the awful things in our world for two tenths of SFA.
Agree....Coppers and Health staff deal with stuff that never makes the news or stats sheets because its too shocking in content.
I'd throw ambo's in there as well....just so understaffed that now they have to refuse transport to hospitals to some patients if they can get a family member to drive them to ER etc...tip.. dont say you are feeling better.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 13, 2021, 05:53:47 pm
30 cases of thromboembolic events have been reported among the five million people vaccinated with the AstraZeneca vaccine in the European Economic Area.  One in every one thousand people in the UK will experience thromboembolic symptoms each year.  We need to find another 4,970 vaccinated folk with thromboembolic symptoms  :)
South Africa have actually scrapped the Astrazeneca in favour of the Johnson/Johnson single dose, it failed vs their own Sth African strain. Its the cheap, easy to store vaccine and thats why its popular with ScottyM......
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 13, 2021, 06:09:53 pm
Considering how few covid cases and how few covid deaths we've actually had the vaccine can't have a degree of failure that is as high as reported.

We are batting at 909 deaths off 29112 positive cases.

Off 25 million people thats tiny, so if this vaccine is even moderately dangerous then we are likely to cause more damage than we solve with it at the moment.  That could easily change but you know what I mean.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 13, 2021, 06:55:00 pm
Champ.

Teachers, nurses, GPs, scientists, carers generally... to me, they're the real 'billionaires' of planet Earth. Not in $ terms but in terms of contribution and value.

Do you miss BH? Still lovin' it out west? Still got the creative facial hair design?

I'm not a teacher Shane, I just do some training, lecturing from time to time.

The only thing I miss about BH is not being able to walk over and watch a game of footy or cricket at the oval.  Even having a look at the Mustangs training when I walked home from the station was interesting.

Yes the "soul patch" is still there.  What about your mo?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 13, 2021, 07:24:50 pm
Considering how few covid cases and how few covid deaths we've actually had the vaccine can't have a degree of failure that is as high as reported.

We are batting at 909 deaths off 29112 positive cases.

Off 25 million people thats tiny, so if this vaccine is even moderately dangerous then we are likely to cause more damage than we solve with it at the moment.  That could easily change but you know what I mean.
That doesn't mean the rest of the population will never get COVID, the vaccine prevents future infections the past is almost irrelevant when compared to the potential of COVID over the coming months.

Most deadly thing might be complacency!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 13, 2021, 08:31:08 pm
That doesn't mean the rest of the population will never get COVID, the vaccine prevents future infections the past is almost irrelevant when compared to the potential of COVID over the coming months.

Most deadly thing might be complacency!
I did say that this could change.

You also assume that people who get covid get symptoms and get tested and are confirmed positive.

The ratios could be worse or better than advertised depending on false positives and false negatives or even people who are positive dont get sick and don't get tested.

You give 25 million people a vaccine and if its 1 in 1000 that end up with a problem you condemn 25000 people guaranteed to potentially save 1 in God knows how many positive who are also categorised as high risk and likely to kick it.

Its like driving yourself crazy trying to stop yourself from going crazy.

Might as well just let yourself go crazy and be done with it.

Note this isn't me stating we should let it rip.  I think what we are currently doing is a perfectly fine approach sans vaccine.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 13, 2021, 09:26:23 pm
Personally I'd chuck coppers in that group, they deal with all the awful things in our world for two tenths of SFA.

Absolutely. Sorry about that. Coppers, absolutely, got some really good copper buddies here on the Island. And although they might come under the general carer/medico heading... ambos - champs.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 14, 2021, 10:59:12 am

You give 25 million people a vaccine and if its 1 in 1000 that end up with a problem you condemn 25000 people guaranteed to potentially save 1 in God knows how many positive who are also categorised as high risk and likely to kick it.
That's 0.1% of vaccinations if it's correct, but the global stats suggest the chance of severe reaction is even lower.

The figures just for COVID-19 deaths, not including severe illness and long term COVID-19 effects, is 2000%(20x) worse! The global death average is 2.2%, for 25 million infections that is 550,000 deaths or 2200% worse than your vaccines kill example!

Using severe reactions to the vaccine as the argument just doesn't make sense, because so far the vaccines are proving 100% effective at reducing or eliminating severe COVID-19 cases, so even if your are correct that's a 2190% improvement!

COVID-19 is a Corona virus, the same as the common cold, everybody gets it sooner or later, all 25.5 million of us! Which is why the scientists are now working hard on a generic broad spectrum vaccine that has a chance of working against any variant of coronavirus.

The "do not get the vaccine it's not safe" argument, is akin to arguing against car seat belts because they only save 98% of car accident victims.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 14, 2021, 11:54:49 am
That's 0.1% of vaccinations if it's correct, but the global stats suggest the chance of severe reaction is even lower.

The figures just for COVID-19 deaths, not including severe illness and long term COVID-19 effects, is 2000%(20x) worse! The global death average is 2.2%, for 25 million infections that is 550,000 deaths or 2200% worse than your vaccines kill example!

Using severe reactions to the vaccine as the argument just doesn't make sense, because so far the vaccines are proving 100% effective at reducing or eliminating severe COVID-19 cases, so even if your are correct that's a 2190% improvement!

COVID-19 is a Corona virus, the same as the common cold, everybody gets it sooner or later, all 25.5 million of us! Which is why the scientists are now working hard on a generic broad spectrum vaccine that has a chance of working against any variant of coronavirus.

The "do not get the vaccine it's not safe" argument, is akin to arguing against car seat belts because they only save 98% of car accident victims.

Putting on a seat belt isn't going to harm you, getting a jab with a vaccine that nine countries have pulled might.
The herd immunity theory demands that some of the herd have to be sacrificed... why not keep those sacrificial numbers lower by using the safer vaccines and not the one that is the cheapest, easiest to store and distribute. It's clear the astrazeneca is the worst of the vaccines, why are we being forced into having it when other countries have suspended or scrapped it.
Why are we not waiting for the Novavax or JJ one dose variety...because they cost more to buy and store?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 14, 2021, 02:54:29 pm
The herd immunity theory demands that some of the herd have to be sacrificed... why not keep those sacrificial numbers lower by using the safer vaccines and not the one that is the cheapest, easiest to store and distribute. It's clear the astrazeneca is the worst of the vaccines, why are we being forced into having it when other countries have suspended or scrapped it.
Why are we not waiting for the Novavax or JJ one dose variety...because they cost more to buy and store?
Because they aren't necessarily better or safer, and each day that passes does take a fiscal toll.

I'm glad you pointed out that the natural herd immunity approach initially preferred by some requires a sacrifice, Viking style I suppose!

Still serious side effects or death from vaccine derived immunity would be just a fraction of the deaths or serious effects of gaining herd immunity but natural means.

@ElwoodBlues1  What is the evidence that either Novavax or J&J is safer and / or cheaper?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 14, 2021, 02:55:38 pm
Putting on a seat belt isn't going to harm you, getting a jab with a vaccine that nine countries have pulled might.
Not putting a seal belt possibly kills you, and perhaps also indicates your propensity to take risks that kill others, like not getting a jab!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 14, 2021, 02:59:52 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/three-people-in-norway-treated-for-unusual-symptoms-after-astrazeneca-covid-19-shots-20210314-p57aj3.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 14, 2021, 03:13:21 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/three-people-in-norway-treated-for-unusual-symptoms-after-astrazeneca-covid-19-shots-20210314-p57aj3.html
In the UK, they seem to think some regions where politics have overtaken science are cherry-picking correlations, because the the numbers do not show more than expected.

Phil Bryan, head of the UK Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) said reports of blood clots so far didn't exceed what would have occurred naturally in the vaccinated population.

"Available evidence does not confirm that the vaccine is the cause," he said.

More than 11 million doses of AstraZeneca's vaccine have so far been administered across the UK.

As I've mentioned before, a lot of politics in all this, EU countries profit from Pfizer and Novavax as they are made for the EU within the EU, but not so much from AstraZeneca as it manufacturing is distributed globally. J&J vaccine was developed by Janssen (Netherlands) has partnered with Merck (Germany and Belgium), so again Merck make in the EU.

The alerts and reactions do not match the level of risk exposed in the stats.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 14, 2021, 03:54:42 pm
LP you don't think we're playing politics considering AstraZ is what we have invested the most in?

It would be a disaster if it had to be canned.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 14, 2021, 04:58:31 pm
LP you don't think we're playing politics considering AstraZ is what we have invested the most in?

It would be a disaster if it had to be canned.
If it is blocked due to politics not due to medical and scientific evidence it'll be tragic, the UK can't hand out 11 million doses, and other countries millions and millions more, and not be seeing the same effects if they are real world effects.

btw., Norway is assessing about 30 deaths they think are associated with Pfizer as well, they claim they were from the first 42,000 Pfizer vaccinations, why aren't we seeing that reported? If that is true that is more than 10x higher than the alleged AstraZeneca vaccine death rate?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 14, 2021, 04:59:55 pm
In the UK, they seem to think some regions where politics have overtaken science are cherry-picking correlations, because the the numbers do not show more than expected.

Phil Bryan, head of the UK Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) said reports of blood clots so far didn't exceed what would have occurred naturally in the vaccinated population.

"Available evidence does not confirm that the vaccine is the cause," he said.

More than 11 million doses of AstraZeneca's vaccine have so far been administered across the UK.

As I've mentioned before, a lot of politics in all this, EU countries profit from Pfizer and Novavax as they are made for the EU within the EU, but not so much from AstraZeneca as it manufacturing is distributed globally. J&J vaccine was developed by Janssen (Netherlands) has partnered with Merck (Germany and Belgium), so again Merck make in the EU.

The alerts and reactions do not match the level of risk exposed in the stats.
LP, People are getting blood clots 2-3 days after the jab and you think there is no link, just coincidence?
Sth Africa canned it because it was only 25%
effective in their trials vs their own new strain.
They went with the more expensive JJ and the govt would have lost money..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 14, 2021, 05:06:39 pm
LP, People are getting blood clots 2-3 days after the jab and you think there is no link, just coincidence?
Sth Africa canned it because it was only 25%
effective in their trials vs their own new strain.
They went with the more expensive JJ and the govt would have lost money..
Firstly, I'm not in a position to postulate a link to anything, I have to listen to the experts, not the media and politicians. The experts are saying the rate of incidents is basically the same as would be expected in that number of people over that period of time. As I've said before, when you start handing out millions and millions of shots you'll get all sorts of conditions occurring coincidentally.

btw., Norway's COVID rate is accelerating, now 800 new cases per million per week. COVID-19 also causes clotting, it now listed as one of the severe conditions associated with an infection! ;)

PS; It seems a bit rich to me to now be taking vaccine advice from countries that wanted natural herd immunity to do the same job just a few months ago!

I thought J&J was supposed to be cheaper, because the media spin is the cost is similar but it is only a single dose regime? Whether it is safer is not debateable because hardly any has been issued yet, compared to Pfizer or AstraZeneca, J&J greater safety is not yet based on the same level of evidence as Pfizer of AstraZeneca!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 14, 2021, 05:22:21 pm
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnlamattina/2021/03/12/what-else-can-go-wrong-with-astrazenecas-covid-19-vaccine/?sh=e07a32e4b5cb

More countries cooling on it...Germany and France dont want a bar of it and the author of that article is suggesting the USA flog it to 3rd world nations to make a buck as its seen as inferior.  How many more countries do we need to can it before Scotty wakes up we can do better with the other vaccines.
If the English want to go down saluting the home grown product then good luck to them, doesnt mean we have to follow like sheep ...
Scotty has just had his second dose of Pfizer.....yet is spruking the AstraZ....how comforting...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 14, 2021, 05:36:27 pm
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnlamattina/2021/03/12/what-else-can-go-wrong-with-astrazenecas-covid-19-vaccine/?sh=e07a32e4b5cb

More countries cooling on it...Germany and France dont want a bar of it and the author of that article is suggesting the USA flog it to 3rd world nations to make a buck as its seen as inferior.  How many more countries do we need to can it before Scotty wakes up we can do better with the other vaccines.
If the English want to go down saluting the home grown product then good luck to them, doesnt mean we have to follow like sheep ...
Scotty has just had his second dose of Pfizer.....yet is spruking the AstraZ....how comforting...
As I've already mentioned, there is a lot of politics in all this, I'll take my advice from medical specialist and scientists not investment advisors. He might well have a case for being worried about your AstraZeneca investments given the media coverage, but nothing much he writes has relevance to the vaccination programs.

Ironically, nobody is asking given the millions and millions of doses of Pfizer already issue how they can't be reporting the same cases at the background level, is it the miracle vaccine against all illness and disease? Perhaps though it's due to selective reporting?

Most royalites paid for mRNA vaccine to the US and Germany are derived from Pfizer, not AstraZeneca.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 15, 2021, 06:59:02 am
https://www.9news.com.au/world/coronavirus-ireland-suspends-astrazeneca-vaccine/94d1ad6b-6c98-4750-9b52-0473d8b0a5ad
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 15, 2021, 08:10:54 am
https://www.9news.com.au/world/coronavirus-ireland-suspends-astrazeneca-vaccine/94d1ad6b-6c98-4750-9b52-0473d8b0a5ad
 How many cases of blood clots have Ireland had?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 15, 2021, 08:13:26 am
How many cases of blood clots have Ireland had?

Not sure you would have to ask the experts who have suspended the vaccine over there.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 15, 2021, 08:21:52 am
Not sure you would have to ask the experts who have suspended the vaccine over there.
The officials said it was precautionary based on the Norway reports, they might not have any like Denmark which apparently suspended the vaccine first based on Norway's reports despite not having any cases of it's own!

It doesn't make sense, other countries have issued millions and millions of doses, if there was even a 1.0%, 0.1% or even 0.01% chance of this being correct there would be hundreds or thousands of cases, you can't defeat the math.

I think the absence of those cases isn't a sign of a super conspiracy, it's a sign of political, media or social media meddling.

I would have thought that Israel would be right onto this, they are at about 130% vaccination rate, that is all the population has received one jab and about 1/3rd of it a second. Although not all are AstraZeneca, and they started with Pfizer as it was available first. Israel published some interesting data a few weeks back, based on insurance claim data they were able to show no increase in claims as a result of the vaccine rollout, and a reduction in COVID-19 claims. But the media ignored that, it must be a conspiracy to keep it quiet.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 15, 2021, 10:12:30 am
South Africa have actually scrapped the Astrazeneca in favour of the Johnson/Johnson single dose, it failed vs their own Sth African strain. Its the cheap, easy to store vaccine and thats why its popular with ScottyM......

I’m not sure that I would like to see public health decisions based on what’s happening in South Africa.  The study that found poor efficacy of the Astrazeneca vaccine looked at 1,000 31 year old men and it hasn’t been published or peer reviewed.

Of considerable concern is the SA Auditor-General’s report that found the SA COVID-19 related procurement is marred by opacity, corruption and mismanagement on a wide scale.

Meanwhile, “A careful review of all available safety data of more than 17 million people vaccinated in the European Union and UK with COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca has shown no evidence of an increased risk of pulmonary embolism, deep vein thrombosis or thrombocytopenia, in any defined age group, gender, batch or in any particular country.”

Ireland has temporarily suspended use of AstraZeneca’s vaccine “out of an abundance of caution”.  There’s nothing wrong with an abundance of caution except when it flies in the face of the evidence and has the potential to place folk at greater risk.  Fortunately, apart from the need to get our economy back to near normal, we don’t have the same urgency and can afford to be cautious.  However, our Therapeutic Goods Administration has received no reports of blood clots following use of the AstraZeneca vaccine in Australia. The TGA states that “extensive international experience does not indicate an increased risk of blood clots associated with the vaccine. Blood clots can occur naturally and are not uncommon.”
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 15, 2021, 12:31:18 pm
Guys you are peddling one assertion ahead of another.

The assertion that we are being told the truth about this vaccine and its side effects is likely the biggest fallousy we are being told about.

The worst still is that in lieu of other evidence countries with more severe covid issues than our own are pulling the same vaccine we are rolling out and for better or worse we currently don't have a virus to fight.

common sense states we shouldn't be using this vaccine irrespective of the assertion that its safe or are problem because even if it does the job they state it will, there is still every chance there are future unforseen consequences that can't be quantified right now and evidence is showing its borderline effective and the wrong mutation will render it useless anyway.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 15, 2021, 12:42:51 pm
common sense states we shouldn't be using this vaccine irrespective of the assertion that its safe or are problem because even if it does the job they state it will, there is still every chance there are future unforseen consequences that can't be quantified right now and evidence is showing its borderline effective and the wrong mutation will render it useless anyway.
Compared to all other vaccines not just COVID-19 vaccines, the COVID-19 vaccines are very safe. Safer than MMR, safer than Tetanus and safer than HPV. The rate of vaccination is extraordinary, and it's hard to ignore the stats. Until another like J&J  or Novavax reach vaccination counts in the tens of million authorities won't be able to make an equivalent comment, and we do not know about Pfizer because they aren't publishing the numbers which cannot be zero or that really stinks of something rotten.

I know the Global Health Initiative in partnership with Google is trying hard to open up all this data, if it does we will all get to read the standardised statistics.

All this has risen out of four diverse cases of clotting, not even the same clotting, it's ironic to think the dodginess only goes one way as @DJC rightly points out. Skip the opportunity to get ahead of the next wave, which is coming whether you like it or not, and you won't be worrying about the effects of the vaccine! I would have thought someone who works in a future potentially over-run hospital would be sensitive to that, the fact our hospitals aren't / haven't been over-run yet is the reason why we have such a good outcome!

Once Merck and GSK got involved, two companies that originally refused to take part because there was "nothing in it" from them, the waters have now been muddied. Is that coincidence? All of a sudden there is big dollars and it's worth the effort. Is this because they thought mRNA vaccines might not work, and they placed the wrong bet? Now they want to deal themselves back in!

There must have been quite a lot of ar5e kicking going on at Merck and GSK, they've let Pfizer, Moderna and AstraZeneca get a $Trillion head start!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 15, 2021, 02:28:24 pm
This reminds me of the video of Trump fans in different states chanting "Count the votes" or "Stop the votes" depending on if he was winning or not.

LP you keep talking about politics, authorities put people who died from all sorts of conditions down as covid despite knowing that's not what killed them and now they want to make excuses for people who have medical issues after receiving the vaccine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 15, 2021, 03:03:38 pm
Compared to all other vaccines not just COVID-19 vaccines, the COVID-19 vaccines are very safe. Safer than MMR, safer than Tetanus and safer than HPV. The rate of vaccination is extraordinary, and it's hard to ignore the stats. Until another like J&J  or Novavax reach vaccination counts in the tens of million authorities won't be able to make an equivalent comment, and we do not know about Pfizer because they aren't publishing the numbers which cannot be zero or that really stinks of something rotten.

I know the Global Health Initiative in partnership with Google is trying hard to open up all this data, if it does we will all get to read the standardised statistics.

All this has risen out of four diverse cases of clotting, not even the same clotting, it's ironic to think the dodginess only goes one way as @DJC rightly points out. Skip the opportunity to get ahead of the next wave, which is coming whether you like it or not, and you won't be worrying about the effects of the vaccine! I would have thought someone who works in a future potentially over-run hospital would be sensitive to that, the fact our hospitals aren't / haven't been over-run yet is the reason why we have such a good outcome!

Once Merck and GSK got involved, two companies that originally refused to take part because there was "nothing in it" from them, the waters have now been muddied. Is that coincidence? All of a sudden there is big dollars and it's worth the effort. Is this because they thought mRNA vaccines might not work, and they placed the wrong bet? Now they want to deal themselves back in!

There must have been quite a lot of ar5e kicking going on at Merck and GSK, they've let Pfizer, Moderna and AstraZeneca get a $Trillion head start!

That is shill 101 stuff LP. I hope to God you haven't got a Bill Gates poster on your bedroom wall.

Neither you, nor ANYONE for that matter, can empirically support a proposition that these vaccines are "very safe".

No one knows - there hasn't been time.

There are plenty of very eminent scientists who staunchly disagree with you and your 'friends'. That is a fact.

You do realise they are only able to be used due to EUAs which, I understand, can be withdrawn at any stage?

And that they remain in phase 3 testing?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 15, 2021, 04:06:39 pm
As i spoke about with @Thryleon before this stuff started.

I am very pro-vaccination, but i will not be at the head of the line for this vaccine. I'll wait until the data comes in on how effective ti really is, and what the side effects are.

Better to wait for update 2.0 then be the first sucker to try a new product IMO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 15, 2021, 04:13:32 pm
No one knows - there hasn't been time.
All the vaccines are remaining in Phase 3, it is more a statement about the dud mentality of the law makers who never envisaged trials on such a large scale.

The shear number of vaccinations is very strong empirical data, that more than makes up for the shorter test regime. Usually Phase 3 is a perhaps 100,000 to 300,000 people over months or years. 320M over 3 months has that well and truly covered. It's the EUAs that permit that acceleration, because nobody writing the rules ever expected such huge trial data. I won't be surprised to find it never goes back to the bad old ways, based on laws from half a century ago!

Longitudinal studies can be compressed in time by increased participant numbers.

I realise Joe Average doesn't get the 320M over 3 months is the same as 80M over a year or 20M over four years, nor do they get Monte Carlo simulations or other analysis techniques.

Unfortunately for the sceptics, and fortunately for the rest of the world, the truth of the situation is exposed by the huge numbers already safely and effectively vaccinated, and it is very very real not just an allegation!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 15, 2021, 04:26:10 pm
@LP ....
Numbers are one thing, but not all people are the same.

So just like nothing but a sample of 31yo males cannot be used accurately to predict how it will work amongst other members of the population, neither can numbers that exclude whole continents.

We are a smart monkey who has mastered many things.
100 years ago we could say the same, at the time, but how many things did we know back then that are just plain wrong nowadays. We hadn't even discovered blood types then.

What is it today that we don't know?
What is it that 100 years from now that we are doing that will seem like pure nonsense?

I'm all for science, but even science knows we don't know a hell of a lot.

So as good as all this appears to be....we simply do not really know.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 15, 2021, 04:26:26 pm
Guys you are peddling one assertion ahead of another.

The assertion that we are being told the truth about this vaccine and its side effects is likely the biggest fallousy we are being told about.

The worst still is that in lieu of other evidence countries with more severe covid issues than our own are pulling the same vaccine we are rolling out and for better or worse we currently don't have a virus to fight.

common sense states we shouldn't be using this vaccine irrespective of the assertion that its safe or are problem because even if it does the job they state it will, there is still every chance there are future unforseen consequences that can't be quantified right now and evidence is showing its borderline effective and the wrong mutation will render it useless anyway.
That is not technically correct. A coronavirus will always be a coronavirus, the vaccines issued now as already tested will always be effective to some degree.

Unfortunately, the media generalise the concept of immunity and misrepresent what the percentage effectiveness means. All the current vaccines are 100% effective at staving off the severe effects of COVID-19. As yet there are no numbers for any regarding preventing transmission, and it is interesting to see people boosting Pfizer ahead of AstraZeneca given the Pfizer trials data remains unreleased while the AstraZeneca data is public release.

if I were suspicious of anything, it would be the 98% effectiveness claimed by Pfizer, yet it's lauded by the media not questioned, despite there being insufficient data or time to know about the Pfizer vaccines it's ability to break transmission.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 15, 2021, 04:29:27 pm
I'm all for science, but even science knows we don't know a hell of a lot.

So as good as all this appears to be....we simply do not really know.
Yet numpties want to accept the 1000 x 31 year old trial as proof something is NBG with one vaccine, but rail against the evidence from a good portion of 320M vaccinations! That is the definition of cherry-picking.

The experts know far more than the people willing to post spurious commentary here, commentary that feeds fear and inhibits uptake of something that might save someone's life, commentary that has a real world effect.

Words kill, stupid words even more so, .................... see Donald Trump or QAnon!

Unfortunately or fortunately, while the naysayers are free to cloud the commentary I'm free to clarify it.

Humans are awful at understanding risk @kruddler, common sense is useless. For example give 320M people a raw carrot and many will choke with some dying, yet raw carrot is a healthy lunch for kids everywhere! ;) The USA has about 320M people, just by chance similar to the numbers vaccinated, in the USA about 12,000 kids choke on fresh fruit or veg requiring hospitalisation each year, some die. The number one choking fruit or veg is carrots, should we ban carrots and withdraw them from food stores and supermarkets. Should carrot farmers be charged with murder? In years gone by excess carrots, which store and transport very well, were shipped by wealthy countries to Africa to improve health and reduce some related dietary deficiencies that caused diseases, ........... those heartless bastards, how many kids choked!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 15, 2021, 06:06:35 pm
Numpties? Joe average?

Who do you think you are?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 15, 2021, 07:06:18 pm
Who do you think you are?
The poster highlighting the flawed logic of numpties.

fwiw, I think @DJC's inference that corruption might have something to do with minimal cohort studies, might be a bit to close to the bone for some of the Saffies to bear! Belgium and Netherland aren't much better, both cultures are world famous in research circles for ripping off IP, Netherland because it makes use of manipulative EU regulations is even more notorious and less trusted than China!

For scientists the problem calling this out is that they won't do it, they are dependant on funding and their careers live and die by a single mistake, no matter how small the risk they will never make a definitive statement even when they know published material is questionable. They just make some bland comment like, well maybe but we need further study before making the call.

In the meantime, let's ban all the carrots!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 15, 2021, 09:14:14 pm
Yet numpties want to accept the 1000 x 31 year old trial as proof something is NBG with one vaccine, but rail against the evidence from a good portion of 320M vaccinations! That is the definition of cherry-picking.

You have highlighted cherry picking with your pro-vaccination government inspired propaganda, while at the same time labelling all the governments against the vaccines (and not even against, just suspending pending more info) as having an agenda to push.

Thats like asking people who are fighting a war if they are the good guys or the bad guys. Everyone sees themselves as a good guy. Yet clearly that cannot be the case.

Its all relative and about perception.

Now again, i am very pro-vaccine and am more than happy for people to get it and will support their right to get it.
But, i'm also using some commen sense, if something will go wrong, it will go wrong initially. Hell, look at the doctor who didn't know how much of the vaccine to give people and killed them. Its not JUST about the vaccine.

Of course it doesn't matter how much data we've got, zero of it shows any potential long term issues that could be associated with it.

Sometimes people with a bit of knowledge and the best of intentions get things wrong and their are unforeseen issues that result.

My favourite story about the above is in relation to Thomas Midgley Jnr.
Short version.
He was a mechanical engineer who holds over 100 patents.
1. He managed to reduce knocking in engines by introducing an additive to petrol.
2. He managed to come up an alternative to the toxic, flammable and explosive gasses used in refrigerants in the 1920's.
3. He managed to invent a system of ropes and pulleys to help people with polio get themselves out of bed.

So what is the problem?
1. That was lead. He came up with leaded petrol which has caused untold damage to individuals worldwide via lead poisoning.
2. That was CFCs. That has ruined the ozone layer and caused untold damage to individuals worldwide via skin cancer.
3. That was for himself, amongst others. He died using that contraption as it malfunctioned and strangled him to death.

The first 2 were still being used during our lifetime, but were perfectly fine when we were kids.......or were they.

A brilliant man (not a joe average) who was a revolutionary.....that killed many by unforeseen side effects....including himself!

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

So forgive me for not jumping head first into this and being wary of potential side effects that are yet to be discovered.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 16, 2021, 07:54:39 am
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

So forgive me for not jumping head first into this and being wary of potential side effects that are yet to be discovered.
As I've mentioned at least once before in this thread, being cautious and sceptical is part of the scientific method, that is the correct way to go about things, based on evidence using repeatable and dependable observations, not based on hearsay.

The suspension of vaccine roll out is not the burial some on here have demonstrated they are interested in. Not everyone thinks reducing the global NIMBY population by horrendous death is a good idea, which is just a few small steps beyond "I'm alright Jack!". Perhaps they'll donate to build an anti-virus wall, let's start a crowdfunding site! ;D

There is a lot of politics, AstraZeneca is the only company doing this as "not for profit"! That's ruffled a lot of industry and corporate feathers, because AstraZeneca now have more than a dozen countries on board building AstraZeneca compatible facilities just like Australia. Some media types, usually business commentators, believe the idea of a big business doing something not-for-profit is antithetical to the corporate concept. Now today you'll find media starting to clarify comments, it'll be stuff like it could be related to a specific batch or it's a manufacturing error in a small quantity only. They are trying to paint out AstraZeneca's manufacturing method as unreliable, we don't want the next possible edition of Thalidomide, unfortunately these people reporting aren't bound by any ethical standards. I've seen this pattern of behaviour before, it is designed to spread doubt and brake rapid progress while opponents catch up, social media just bends over and takes a full load willingly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 16, 2021, 08:12:01 am
Of course it doesn't matter how much data we've got, zero of it shows any potential long term issues that could be associated with it.
I have to correct you on this, it's wrong to draw that conclusion based on human experience.

Problems do not just switch on at some future date, in the real world problems occur on a spectrum of time intervals like a bell curve. Some may show a problem in a few minutes, others a few weeks, others in months.

So if you do enough tests not just in medicine but also in engineering and any other manufacturing process. If something is likely to develop in the future, you have to see it already in the present when you have enough test cases, and we have a large portion of 320 Million which is a testing order of magnitude higher than anything ever before.

Secondly specific to vaccines, they do not persist in your body forever, they are only short lived. Within a month or so there is no detectable trace left, only the immune response caused by the vaccine remains detectable. Just like finding antibodies in people who have had COVID-19, but not finding COVID-19 in the same person. The two main long term immune system components are antibodies and Memory T-Cells, antibodies only last a few months or maybe a year or so, which is why you have to regularly get flu shots, Memory T-Cells are the long lived residual effect and could last a lifetime but it is not guaranteed.

The scenarios people are imagining on social media are Hollywood science fiction movie plots, not real world.

I heard an interesting discussion last night on the BBC World. The scientist commentating made the point not only have we never made vaccines like this on this scale before, we've never made syringes, needles or vials or shipped them on the same scale before either. If the problems postulated by Norway are true, they could just as easily come from a batch of any one of these things. All will be part of the review. This is assuming the effect is real and the cause is just accidental, because apparently there has already been several people arrested globally for contaminating / damaging batches of vaccine. Are humans the problem again?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 16, 2021, 09:41:08 am
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-16/germany-italy-france-suspend-use-of-astrazeneca-covid-vaccine/13251544
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 16, 2021, 10:26:55 am
GTC...They dont reduce the effects to zero and if you are on the heavy duty variety like the old rat poison (warfarin) you find you are still able to get clots via interaction with other drugs, food and other underlying conditions.
Like I said only your own GP knows what you are on and as we know with a lot of older folk they take a cocktail of several drugs
which interact differently with each other. My mother in law took warferin, it was a nightmare to manage given her other conditions, dosage changed every week. You dont need a vaccine with possible clot effects adding to that, get one that is proven not to be a potential trigger ie maybe wait for the Novavax..
Are we actually checking people and working out what is the best vaccine to suit them or just randomly jabbing them with whats available?
Would you entertain a long haul flight after a couple of jabs of astrazeneca, you might not even know you are a potential clot candidate...?

As a note that may give you some confidence, EB1 Old Son, my father was on Warfarin for about 25 years. The initial stages were difficult as they ascertained the correct dosage for him considering his emphysema, heavy drinking (which he refused to stop) and he made it through to 86 (passed away on Christmas Day just gone). Had he looked after himself better, he'd have easily passed 90.

However, I, also, will be balking at Astra and I hope our govt doesn't favour cost over community risk and continues strong scrutiny of this particular vaccine, especially when there are others which are not reporting anything other than minor reactions - which are to be expected as the immune system identifies, fights and adjusts to its job of tackling Covid should it enter the body.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 16, 2021, 10:38:00 am
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-16/germany-italy-france-suspend-use-of-astrazeneca-covid-vaccine/13251544
Rolling coverage: Australians shouldn’t hold concerns over AstraZeneca vaccine, expert says (https://www.heraldsun.com.au/coronavirus/rolling-coverage-race-to-trace-hot-spot-visitors/news-story/7015b4117f8129aa37cfb71939ace57b)

A leading Victorian epidemiologist has questioned the “extreme” decision of European regulators to pause the AstraZeneca coronavirus vaccine rollout.
Quote from: Professor Catherine Bennett
Deakin University Chair of Epidemiology Professor Catherine Bennett said it was a surprising move, given the extremely low cases of people experiencing blood clots and the lack of evidence to suggest they were caused by the vaccine.

 "It does seem a more extreme step to actually suspend. But it is a suspension, it’s only a two-week suspension and I’d be expecting them to resume in two weeks time,” she said.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 16, 2021, 10:47:03 am
I can kind of see where LP is coming from. We don't know whether those decisions to suspend the AZ vaccine are purely political, somewhat political, how much heed they have paid to their in house scientists etc. Perhaps European scientists are more risk averse.

The numbers for blood clotting etc. seem very low, but it is far too early to be drawing solid conclusions. 

What do they hope to achieve by a two week suspension ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 16, 2021, 10:54:01 am
I can kind of see where LP is coming from.

He didn't lose you after his toddlers choking on carrots anology?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 16, 2021, 10:56:02 am
Yes but given how we've responded to the covid threat you would think we'd take the same precautions with the vaccine.


It's very hard to build confidence in something you have been told is perfectly safe until it isn't and countries start suspending its administration and you are still told its perfectly safe.

Meanwhile any other assertion is dismissed as a conspiracy theory yet here we are trying to believe one assertion over the other.

The only assertion I can make with some accuracy is that we are indeed not being told the whole truth and I'd be correct more often than not.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 16, 2021, 10:56:08 am
What do they hope to achieve by a two week suspension?
It's meaningless, the alleged numbers are so low from vaccinations that have taken weeks and/or months to issue almost nothing can be achieved by the suspension. As I predicted earlier today, some sites are now reporting it's just two batches they are worried about.

What they will probably eventually state in a week or two is that the incidence of blood clots in people being vaccinated AstraZeneca doesn't deviate from the global mean, not different to any other vaccine, injection, procedure or head count. But they already know that from the 17 million AstraZeneca doses handed out in the UK, that doesn't mean any vaccine or procedure gets to avoid vigilance.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 16, 2021, 11:00:41 am
Yes but given how we've responded to the covid threat you would think we'd take the same precautions with the vaccine.

It's very hard to build confidence in something you have been told is perfectly safe until it isn't and countries start suspending its administration and you are still told its perfectly safe.

Meanwhile any other assertion is dismissed as a conspiracy theory yet here we are trying to believe one assertion over the other.

The only assertion I can make with some accuracy is that we are indeed not being told the whole truth and I'd be correct more often than not.
It's not dismissed as a conspiracy theory that is social media talk, and there are plenty of precautions being taken more than is usual.

The scientific consensus is the the alleged rate is so low it's not more than is predicted by the epidemiology of a cohort that is the same size, and that it doesn't warrant the suspension issued primarily by bureaucrats and politicians.

The problem is the case being argued to stop vaccination bears no great validity, and the points made to support that stop can actually be equally applied to both sides of the debate for and against for a net effect of zero. You cannot just selectively apply those points to one side of the debate, they have to be applied equally to both and the result them becomes null.

What isn't symmetrical is that one side of this debate is supported by the weight of vaccination numbers, which is a fact not a conspiracy or opinion.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 16, 2021, 11:23:34 am
I can kind of see where LP is coming from. We don't know whether those decisions to suspend the AZ vaccine are purely political, somewhat political, how much heed they have paid to their in house scientists etc. Perhaps European scientists are more risk averse.

The numbers for blood clotting etc. seem very low, but it is far too early to be drawing solid conclusions. 

What do they hope to achieve by a two week suspension ?
Dont think the South African scrapping of the vaccine had anything to do with politics, it failed testing with regards their own strain
and will cost them more having switched in the main to the Johnson/Johnson vaccine.
Herd immunity is fine until the herd stragglers who get picked off by a blood clot or other failure are one of your family, maybe these other countries value the lives of their citizens a bit more and are prepared to put more work into thorough testing than looking to save a dollar than some other nations.
Its also very choice when your Prime Minister sprukes the vaccine with the problems but he and his ministers have all had the alternate ie the Pfizer.....very Mary Antoinette.... let the people have the AstraZ.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 16, 2021, 11:32:46 am
Dont think the South African scrapping of the vaccine had anything to do with politics, it failed testing with regards their own strain
and will cost them more having switched in the main to the Johnson/Johnson vaccine.
How did the replication trials of the Sth African result go, nobody it seems has been able to come out and support the Sth African result so far and several countries are testing the strain!

The official position is this;
Quote
A small study of 2,000 people in South Africa has shown that the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine offers minimal protection against mild cases of the South African variant.

The study, which was based people of an average age of 31, shows that protection may be as low as 10%. The research wasn’t able to determine whether it protects against serious illness or hospitalisation, because this group of people were at low risk of serious illness. Other research suggests that the vaccine is still likely to reduce severe cases and deaths from the South African strain. More research is needed in this area.

Oxford University is working on adapting the vaccine to ensure that it protects against this variant, as well as other strains. They have said a ‘booster’ jab could be available by autumn 2021.

There are currently only a small number of cases of the South African variant, and governments have put measures in place to minimise community spread of this variant.

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 16, 2021, 11:41:17 am
He didn't lose you after his toddlers choking on carrots anology?

I must have missed it. The point being, it is not unreasonable to speculate whether the suspensions are more influenced by politics or science, given the current circumstances and given what we know about how both science and politics operate. I'm not saying LP or anyone else is right or wrong. But it's a fair question IMO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 16, 2021, 11:42:01 am
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/15/evidence-oxford-vaccine-blood-clots-data-causal-links

"It’s human nature to spot patterns in data. But we should be careful about finding causal links where none may exist"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 16, 2021, 11:46:00 am
How did the replication trials of the Sth African result go, nobody it seems has been able to come out and support the Sth African result so far and several countries are testing the strain!

The official position is this;
 
They scrapped it and its going to cost them money... They must have some serious doubts.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 16, 2021, 11:51:31 am
https://theconversation.com/data-suggest-no-increased-risk-of-blood-clots-from-the-astrazeneca-vaccine-australia-shouldnt-pause-its-rollout-157137

Another article suggesting we should not pause the AZ rollout.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 16, 2021, 11:56:29 am
https://theconversation.com/data-suggest-no-increased-risk-of-blood-clots-from-the-astrazeneca-vaccine-australia-shouldnt-pause-its-rollout-157137

Another article suggesting we should not pause the AZ rollout.
I guess the government signing a deal with CSL for 50 Million doses might also encourage Scott and crew to keep pushing it as safe. Looks like a few of his backbenchers don't agree and want it suspended..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 16, 2021, 12:01:46 pm
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-why-are-countries-suspending-the-astrazeneca-vaccine

The whole article is well worth reading, but I found the following particularly interesting :

AstraZeneca riskier than Pfizer?
AstraZeneca said its safety results for blood clotting conditions were “similar across other licensed COVID-19 vaccines”.

Professor Stephen Evans from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine said the latest publicly available data showed there were 35 reported cases of thrombocytopenia (a low blood platelet disorder) out of 54,000 “yellow card” reports after nearly 10 million AstraZeneca vaccinations.

For the Pfizer vaccine there were 22 cases out of 33,000 reports and almost 11 million doses administered.

Prof Evans said: “It is clear that the proportion of reports for this bleeding disorder is not different in the two vaccines.”
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 16, 2021, 12:26:52 pm
They scrapped it and its going to cost them money... They must have some serious doubts.
It might not cost the people making the decision anything at all, in fact some may even be better off!

But Craig Kelly says no to AstraZeneca, front page of the same media rag that said he should be barred from politics, so the decision is made! ;)

On a far more serious note, this is what we should be really worried about, major outbreaks just off our northern borders;
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/right-on-our-doorstep-australia-to-send-medical-team-to-png-as-it-battles-covid-19-outbreak-20210315-p57aqf.html

Qld and the NT must be crapting themself, the big concern is they haven't yet ruled out ongoing zoonotic transmission!

Winter is coming!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 16, 2021, 01:36:55 pm
17 million Astrazeneca jabs and what, 30 odd cases of varied forms of blood clots? As one in a thousand people suffer blood clots each year, it follows that the vaccine stops blood clots.  Or is that confusing causal with coincidental?

By the way, world COVID infection rates dropped for the first time in February.  Lockdowns, vaccinations, a combination of both, or coincidence?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 16, 2021, 01:53:26 pm
You can say the same thing about the vast majority of covid deaths in aged care.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 16, 2021, 02:12:18 pm
Its funny.

From a neutral standpoint all I see is people having their confirmation bias confirmed (yep, even suspension of the vaccine might fall into that category) BUT, the one crucial difference, is just like we shut down society because we had a virus we didnt know fully about, we have anecdotal reports coming from overseas, that this vaccine is problematic, with one crucial difference.

The people saying the vaccine is fine and it correlation not causation, are the same ones happy with the lockdown approach because it will stop the spread and save lives.  This seems to be a juxtaposition to me from what I can see, because although the motivation is driven similarly the action is actually polls apart with one being a cautious approach, and the other being about haste and no regard for any potential safety concerns.

The only safe move is to proceed cautiously on both virus and vaccine and take a front row seat on how its working out elsewhere to determine the most APPROPRIATE course of action with the knowledge that we will be safe or safe enough either way.

I am most interested in seeing whether or not the vaccine actually does anything to stem the number of deaths, and positive tests in line with numbers being tested rather than anything else.

17 million Astrazeneca jabs and what, 30 odd cases of varied forms of blood clots? As one in a thousand people suffer blood clots each year, it follows that the vaccine stops blood clots.  Or is that confusing causal with coincidental?

By the way, world COVID infection rates dropped for the first time in February.  Lockdowns, vaccinations, a combination of both, or coincidence?
  Perhaps it simply is correlation with the end of winter in the northern hemisphere.  Lets not confuse correlation with causation shall we?


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 16, 2021, 02:18:36 pm
If the AstraZ was the only vaccine I would take it just like I get the flu shot every year.  My problem is there is a better vaccine for important people and the budget one for the cattle class.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 16, 2021, 02:31:09 pm
If the AstraZ was the only vaccine I would take it just like I get the flu shot every year.  My problem is there is a better vaccine for important people and the budget one for the cattle class.
Arent there mulitple flu vaccines also (some better than others)?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 16, 2021, 02:33:12 pm
If the AstraZ was the only vaccine I would take it just like I get the flu shot every year.  My problem is there is a better vaccine for important people and the budget one for the cattle class.

The science and the numbers don't appear to suggest that one is better than the other.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 16, 2021, 02:37:22 pm
Arent there mulitple flu vaccines also (some better than others)?

This page gives some good info. It seems as though there will be 4 different vaccines available. Last updated 22nd February 2021. You don't get to choose which vaccine you get.

https://www.health.gov.au/node/18777/australias-vaccine-agreements
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 16, 2021, 02:41:21 pm
The science and the numbers don't appear to suggest that one is better than the other.
Not in terms of clotting, but in terms of effectiveness there were early numbers that suggested Pfizer was much more effective than AZ.

All that aside.... all yourself a simple question, why are the politicians getting something different to what the public are getting.
What possible reasons could there be behind it?
Come up with a list and tell me how many legitimate reasons that are not money and/or effectiveness related.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 16, 2021, 03:03:19 pm
According to this :

https://www.prevention.com/health/a35118263/astrazeneca-vs-pfizer-vs-moderna-covid-19-vaccine/

The two mRNA vaccines have a slight edge in efficacy; both Pfizer and Moderna report being about 95% effective against COVID-19 after the second shot in clinical trials. (For comparison, the annual flu shot is usually between 40 and 60% effective, per the CDC.) They also reduce the risk of severe illness even if you do become infected with SARS-CoV-2.

The Johnson & Johnson vaccine was found to be 85% effective against severe forms of COVID-19, which prevents hospitalization and death, per the FDA. The company’s phase 3 trial also reported no COVID-19-related deaths and no COVID-19 cases requiring medical intervention after 28 days in vaccinated participants.

AstraZeneca’s own study found its vaccine is 76% effective against COVID-19 for up to three months after just one dose. It also appears that the vaccine becomes more effective with a longer wait between doses; infections were less likely among those who received their booster more than 12 weeks after their initial shot compared to those who received theirs less than six weeks after. More research is needed to confirm the significance of these findings, however.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 16, 2021, 03:17:12 pm
Most people would see those numbers and go for the Pfizer if they had a choice. I don't know enough about the difference between 76% and 95% efficacy in the real world. Maybe it's a lot, but I suspect it isn't.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 16, 2021, 03:23:14 pm
It's interesting to see the keen interest in manufacturer and efficacy rates of the covid vaccines compared to others. I'm guessing most people have never given a second thought to the flu shot they get every year. I'm guessing most people just think of it as the "flu shot", get the jab and go on their way.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 16, 2021, 03:34:53 pm
Not in terms of clotting, but in terms of effectiveness there were early numbers that suggested Pfizer was much more effective than AZ.

All that aside.... all yourself a simple question, why are the politicians getting something different to what the public are getting.
What possible reasons could there be behind it?

Come up with a list and tell me how many legitimate reasons that are not money and/or effectiveness related.
The politicians aren't selectively getting one or the other, it depends on where you are as there is only limited supply of both vaccines. ;)

Some people OS have already had one of each.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 16, 2021, 03:42:04 pm
It's interesting to see the keen interest in manufacturer and efficacy rates of the covid vaccines compared to others. I'm guessing most people have never given a second thought to the flu shot they get every year. I'm guessing most people just think of it as the "flu shot", get the jab and go on their way.
The problem is, nearly all vaccines are very effective at stopping severe cases of whatever disease they target.

The numbers regarding prevention of transmission aren't really available which makes the high efficacy reported by the mRNA vaccines a bit questionable, but Modena and Pfizer refuse to publish the trial data or analysis methods, so nobody can question their claim ............ as yet.

In the vaccine industry there is a bit of push back, a lot of traditional companies like Merck and GSK refused to go down the route of mRNA vaccines, they have huge investments in conventional established (some say ancient) technologies. But of the vaccine technologies only mRNA is likely to deliver you a pill that cures a cancer, so I think people will sit up and take a serious look at this technology now. One of the long term goals of mRNA is to do a genetic test of your illness, and make you a one off private vaccine to cure your illness.

For me there is a big question about why our government is only going down the route of the AstraZeneca adenovirus methodology. I know part of the polticis about this is helping the 3rd world nations, if they aren't cured we aren't cured, and Pfizer and Moderna just do not work for the 3rd world. However, if mRNA technology takes off the local AstraZeneca investment could be redundant before it's even covered the original deposit!

An even more exciting prospect, is a peptide type vaccine in a tablet, one for Influenza is already in trials in the UK. Interestingly, the same team led by Sarah Gilbert at Oxford researches both, as well as a nasal spray, maybe that is a tell! This will never be an option for Pfizer or Moderna, .......................... am I exposing a motive for the public slanging match we see before us? A game of survival!

PS; Guess where they are also trialling such novel vaccines for Zika virus, ...................... Sth Africa ...... did someone say politics, ......... no! ;)

PS - PS; AstraZeneca and the much boosted J&J use the same technology, adenovirus based vaccines, the next version of AstraZeneca will also be single shot like J&J.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 16, 2021, 03:49:49 pm
Interesting post LP. Thanks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 16, 2021, 03:51:11 pm
When it comes to the efficacy reported by the various vaccine makers, doesn't it depend on how comparable the testing pools for the vaccines might be?

I haven't followed it very closely, so I'm not professing to have the answers. I have a fuzzy recollection that the Pfizer & Moderna vaccines were tested earlier than the others and that means they were largely tested before the South African & British variants took root. On the other hand, AZ was tested in South Africa and their variant is by far the most challenging one.  Could differences in the pools have influenced the reported efficacy of vaccines?  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 16, 2021, 04:05:22 pm
When it comes to the efficacy reported by the various vaccine makers, doesn't it depend on how comparable the testing pools for the vaccines might be?

I haven't followed it very closely, so I'm not professing to have the answers. I have a fuzzy recollection that the Pfizer & Moderna vaccines were tested earlier than the others and that means they were largely tested before the South African & British variants took root. On the other hand, AZ was tested in South Africa and their variant is by far the most challenging one.  Could differences in the pools have influenced the reported efficacy of vaccines? 
@Mav‍  We do not get to answer it because Pfizer and Moderna won't release the data, it could be they excluded certain groups from the cohort study as part of the trial setup. At this stage we will never know about those figures, ............. until we know retrospectively months or years later.

I have no problem with companies making some profit from this, in fact perhaps it makes sense for them to be required by law to sell it above cost as the survival of those companies stops us being dependant on China. I don't read anybody writing for us to wait for the SinoVac vaccine who have now jumped on board with Merck and GSK! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 16, 2021, 04:07:26 pm
Interesting post LP. Thanks.
 @PaulP‍ Sorry was still editing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 16, 2021, 04:09:17 pm
@PaulP‍ Sorry was still editing.

All good. 👍
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 16, 2021, 04:32:48 pm
If the AstraZ was the only vaccine I would take it just like I get the flu shot every year.  My problem is there is a better vaccine for important people and the budget one for the cattle class.
X100, we don't need to be rushed into the inferior vaccine in our situation, why not wait?
Would you buy the 1st model in a new range of cars or wait for the next model with the improvements/fixes? .
Problem is we have committed to 50 Mill doses via CSL, how much will it take to get out of that deal?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 16, 2021, 04:59:39 pm
Perhaps it simply is correlation with the end of winter in the northern hemisphere.  Lets not confuse correlation with causation shall we?

The downward trend in infections is worldwide Thry, not just the northern hemisphere.  But you’re right, the end of the northern hemisphere winter could be a factor. 

It will be some time before we know (a) whether it’s a trend or a speed bump and (b) if it is a trend, what’s behind it.

Fingers crossed that it will be good news 🤞
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 16, 2021, 06:34:12 pm
Djc, I was being cheeky and highlighting how that argument is rolled out very quickly except when it suits.

Speaking honestly, I think as we cut into autumn spring we should see a slight fall before a kick up south of the equator and a fall north of it, because the science shows the virus is transmissible for less time in the sun.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 16, 2021, 08:24:22 pm
Arent there mulitple flu vaccines also (some better than others)?

Yes, and older folk like me get the good one ... and for nothing  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 16, 2021, 08:28:42 pm
Djc, I was being cheeky and highlighting how that argument is rolled out very quickly except when it suits.

Speaking honestly, I think as we cut into autumn spring we should see a slight fall before a kick up south of the equator and a fall north of it, because the science shows the virus is transmissible for less time in the sun.

I think you’re probably right Thry ... and that’s a good reason to be concerned about our vaccination program falling well behind the target 🤔
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 16, 2021, 08:45:48 pm
Arent there mulitple flu vaccines also (some better than others)?

https://www.tga.gov.au/alert/2020-seasonal-influenza-vaccines

Sorry Nando. I misread your question earlier.

My wife gets one every year, and neither she nor anyone she knows (or I know) have ever asked for a specific brand / variant. Is this a thing ? Can you ask your GP / chemist etc. for a particular one ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 16, 2021, 09:23:52 pm
https://www.tga.gov.au/alert/2020-seasonal-influenza-vaccines

Sorry Nando. I misread your question earlier.

My wife gets one every year, and neither she nor anyone she knows (or I know) have ever asked for a specific brand / variant. Is this a thing ? Can you ask your GP / chemist etc. for a particular one ?
I don't think so, although my wife and a bad reaction to one she had a work and our GP asked if she knew (or could find out) which one she had.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 16, 2021, 10:05:07 pm
I don't think so, although my wife and a bad reaction to one she had a work and our GP asked if she knew (or could find out) which one she had.

I see. Thanks. My wife has been getting them for 15 years or so. She has no idea of the manufacturers, but she's never had any issues.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on March 16, 2021, 10:35:29 pm
While we argue about a vaccination, this is a snippet of 'Covid News' from Cambodia that a client of mine receives.  We are getting similar stories from other countries that the client has aid and relief projects in (incl. Myanmar - what a mess, Thailand, Uganda, Zimbabwe, DRC).

The outbreak came from a quarantine breach on Feb 20.

$2,800 to feed 69 families for a month.  $1.30 per family per day.

I have read that Covid has put back global poverty gains by seven years.  110million being plunged (back) into abject poverty.  These are people who find a way to get enough money for something for their family to eat that night.  If they don't do something, they don't eat.



I just wanted to give you a quick wee update on the latest COVID news. Cases are now over 800 and there is a sense of fear and panic among our families and kids. The kids are reporting that they are now running out of food and the parents are telling us about job losses and drops in daily income.
 
I keep thinking how unfair it is that the poor are the first to suffer, and somehow the rich get richer. Terrible. I was out on the weekend and saw so many homeless families and kids near the riverside. Loads of kids sleeping on thin mats or cardboard right there on the boardwalk. You know where I mean.
 
The news today announced that construction is underway for four new crematoriums outside of Phnom Penh, ahead of increases in COVID deaths. I find this hard news to read. The expectations for this new outbreak are obviously not good.
 
We have asked a few donors to help contribute for food parcels for out most at risk families and we have already made it half way to one month's food for 69 families and I'm sure we'll get the remaining $1400 soon enough!

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 17, 2021, 07:43:31 am
The politicians aren't selectively getting one or the other, it depends on where you are....

Its cute that you believe that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 07:56:07 am
Its cute that you believe that.
Half of them are on the news or website videos getting AstraZeneca, another bunch of them yesterday.

That tinfoil you keep offering people might be getting absorbed through your skin, you're not using the old fashioned lead type are you! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 07:59:13 am
I see. Thanks. My wife has been getting them for 15 years or so. She has no idea of the manufacturers, but she's never had any issues.
That's the way this stuff rolls, being lucky or unlucky is a complex issue!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 17, 2021, 08:03:22 am
That's the way this stuff rolls, being lucky or unlucky is a complex issue!

Yes, as I mentioned yesterday, it's interesting that most folks would not have a clue about manufacturers, efficacy rates etc. of flu vaccines, and are quite prepared to get the jab every year, yet there is a great big hullabaloo about the covid vaccine. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 08:06:35 am
Yes, as I mentioned yesterday, it's interesting that most folks would not have a clue about manufacturers, efficacy rates etc. of flu vaccines, and are quite prepared to get the jab every year, yet there is a great big hullabaloo about the covid vaccine.
Ironically, the AstraZeneca and J&J vaccines are closer in technology to the traditional Influenza vaccine than Pfizer and Moderna which are both completely new technologies, yet the sceptics want the "Trusted Pfizer." Go figure! :o

Personally I don't care which one I get, any procedure can harm you, but the chances are very very low of you being unlucky with any of the offered vaccines, they are functionally the same. That is an unequivocal truth exposed by the statistics. The cynics are almost infinitely more likely to choke on their own lunch today, be killed driving to work, slip in the shower or have a stroke while taking a dump, but they won't stop eating, driving, scrubbing or crapting!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 17, 2021, 08:34:00 am
Ironically, the AstraZeneca and J&J vaccines are closer in technology to the traditional Influenza vaccine than Pfizer and Moderna which are both completely new technologies, yet the sceptics want the "Trusted Pfizer." Go figure! :o

Personally I don't care which one I get, any procedure can harm you, but the chances are very very low of you being unlucky with any of the offered vaccines, they are functionally the same. That is an unequivocal truth exposed by the statistics. The cynics are almost infinitely more likely to choke on their own lunch today, be killed driving to work, slip in the shower or have a stroke while taking a dump, but they won't stop eating, driving, scrubbing or crapting!


Speaking of probabilities, what is the chance of an otherwise healthy unvaccinated person becoming severely ill or worse from the virus in Australia?

Less than a shark attack for all age demographics. Even the uber oldies (in this country).

So, where does the risk/reward balance sit?

And don't start on the BS that is asymptomatic transmission.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 17, 2021, 08:48:03 am
There appears to be a huge political storm going on between the UK and EU over the AZ vaccine which I won't elaborate on here. Net outcome looks like a global undermining of confidence in the AZ vaccine leaving the field open to mainly Pfizer and Sputnik V. Fascinating.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 17, 2021, 08:54:48 am
Yes, as I mentioned yesterday, it's interesting that most folks would not have a clue about manufacturers, efficacy rates etc. of flu vaccines, and are quite prepared to get the jab every year, yet there is a great big hullabaloo about the covid vaccine. 

Don't mention the fact that 13 nations in Europe have paused the use of AstraZ.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 17, 2021, 09:00:36 am
Half of them are on the news or website videos getting AstraZeneca, another bunch of them yesterday.

That tinfoil you keep offering people might be getting absorbed through your skin, you're not using the old fashioned lead type are you! ;D

At my mother in laws' hospital that she works at all the doctors got the Pfizer. She's a food monitor so she has been told that she gets the AstraZ, same as the cleaners.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 17, 2021, 09:04:42 am
There appears to be a huge political storm going on between the UK and EU over the AZ vaccine which I won't elaborate on here. Net outcome looks like a global undermining of confidence in the AZ vaccine leaving the field open to mainly Pfizer and Sputnik V. Fascinating.
The Sputnik also doubles as a hair restorer and fuel injector cleaner..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 17, 2021, 09:05:35 am
Half of them are on the news or website videos getting AstraZeneca, another bunch of them yesterday.

That tinfoil you keep offering people might be getting absorbed through your skin, you're not using the old fashioned lead type are you! ;D

Its funny how you continue to push the barrow that oversees governments are banning it....citing disinformation and secret agendas...

...at the same swallowing everything you are being fed by ours with an empty bowl asking "please sir, can i have some more".

Hypocrisy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 17, 2021, 09:09:37 am
At my mother in laws' hospital that she works at all the doctors got the Pfizer. She's a food monitor so she has been told that she gets the AstraZ, same as the cleaners.

Further to what i just wrote above, and earlier to Pauly...

Why do you think the above occurs if they are the same?
Why are the general public not told what version they will be getting?

They both might be equally effective and do their job, with 1 slightly better.
It might be the difference between a BMW and Mercedes. same same but different.

OR

It might be a Datsun 120y they are offering instead and they don't want to tell you about what you are missing out on.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 17, 2021, 09:19:42 am
The Sputnik also doubles as a hair restorer and fuel injector cleaner..

😁
I could certainly use it for the former.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 17, 2021, 09:21:28 am
Its funny how you continue to push the barrow that oversees governments are banning it....citing disinformation and secret agendas...

...at the same swallowing everything you are being fed by ours with an empty bowl asking "please sir, can i have some more".

Hypocrisy.


here, here.

I gather 20 nations in total have now paused the AZ vaccine.

Yet Scomo and his sycophantic clowns know better?

Right....

I'm still waiting for an ad campaign to be rolled out featuring Cathy Freeman, Kylie and Michael Clarke telling us how safe the vaccines are - they'd know for sure.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 17, 2021, 09:21:45 am
😁
I could certainly use it for the former.

x2
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 17, 2021, 09:21:49 am
Don't mention the fact that 13 nations in Europe have paused the use of AstraZ.

I can only go by the science says, and there is almost universal agreement that all the vaccines on offer are very good, and you should be happy and confident whichever one you receive. If you are correct, and there is a pecking order for the vaccines, then the system is corrupt, and the entire edifice of scientific recommendations and pronouncements needs to be called into question, because I have not heard a single medical expert attempt to steer patients towards one vaccine or the other.

There may well be 13 countries that have suspended AZ, but that leaves 180 odd that have not suspended it. I really don't know what to tell you. You clearly have made up your mind that the AZ is inferior, and I'm not sure another 100 pages of debate will sway you.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 17, 2021, 09:23:51 am
I can only go by the science says, and there is almost universal agreement that all the vaccines on offer are very good, and you should be happy and confident whichever one you receive. If you are correct, and there is a pecking order for the vaccines, then the system is corrupt, and the entire edifice of scientific recommendations and pronouncements needs to be called into question, because I have not heard a single medical expert attempt to steer patients towards one vaccine or the other.

There may well be 13 countries that have suspended AZ, but that leaves 180 odd that have not suspended it. I really don't know what to tell you.

We're talking all the major European nations - not Montenegro and Sardinia!

And there are dozens of eminent scientists/doctors expressing concerns.....

Playing a consensus card - is facile.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 17, 2021, 09:28:27 am
Big politics and big $s are in play folks. The truth will be elusive.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 17, 2021, 09:31:56 am
😁
I could certainly use it for the former.
Ditto, the roof could do with some new thatching...  8)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 17, 2021, 09:37:11 am
Big politics and big $s are in play folks. The truth will be elusive.
Yep, always money to be made in wars and a pandemic isn't much different.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 09:39:45 am

Speaking of probabilities, what is the chance of an otherwise healthy unvaccinated person becoming severely ill or worse from the virus in Australia?

Less than a shark attack for all age demographics. Even the uber oldies (in this country).

So, where does the risk/reward balance sit?

And don't start on the BS that is asymptomatic transmission.....
In the history of Australia, have sharks ever killed 900 people in one year(17/week)?

While it might be correct historically to compare the chances of COVID-19 virus death versus shark attacked death based on historical total figures, we aren't ever going to have a shark attack infect a whole block of flats, a retirement village, palliative care facility or fill a hospital full of patients to the brim.

At the moment Melbourne is detecting the COVID-19 virus in sewerage works all over the state, they do not know how it gets there, but it's found in remote geographically separated sites so it can only be getting there by a mobile vector like people or birds. They suspect some can be explained by people who have been infected recovered and are no getting a second dose, which based on global stats happens to a percentage of sufferers. But they fear it might be birds spreading it from treatment site to treatment site.

Complacency kills.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 09:45:49 am
At my mother in laws' hospital that she works at all the doctors got the Pfizer. She's a food monitor so she has been told that she gets the AstraZ, same as the cleaners.
We talked about this a week or two back, the Pfizer vaccine was the first to roll out weeks ahead of AstraZeneca, and health, quarantine and emergency workers got the first doses so by default they all got Pfizer.

You already know that because I know we have already discussed it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 09:49:26 am
And there are dozens of eminent scientists/doctors expressing concerns.....

Playing a consensus card - is facile.
The only scientists that count in this debate are medical scientists and viral science professionals, having Bert the Seismologist from Texas, or Norbit the Seattle Computer scientist sign an anti-vaccine petition or self report on VAERS is meaningless.

That is why the general social media consensus is facile, because most opinions on the anti-vaccine front do not count, you may as well have a million monkeys on a million computers sign a million petitions.

The only consensus that counts is the experts and they are almost universally supportive of all the vaccine regimes, yet they too are allowed to have a favourite.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 09:51:51 am
Its funny how you continue to push the barrow that oversees governments are banning it....citing disinformation and secret agendas...

...at the same swallowing everything you are being fed by ours with an empty bowl asking "please sir, can i have some more".

Hypocrisy.
No because we have global stats that expose the likely truth that can't be dismissed as opinion.

The actions so far of those nations fly in the face of the evidence, it is not supported by evidence.

I can't believe you accept such trivial evidence the vaccines aren't safe, while denying the weight of such overwhelming evidence the vaccines are safe. Hypocrisy?

FYI;
Adenovirus based vaccines have been around and researched since the 1970s.

mRNA vaccines like Pfizer and Moderna are being used the very first time, never before has mRNA vaccine made it past approval trials.

I really don't care which I get, but I have to highlight the hypocrisy of the anti-AstraZeneca / J&J claims! ( Assume the Anti-AstraZeneca people are also against J&J seeing they are functionally the same base adenovirus technology.)

Which seems ironic for Sth Africa, given they canned AstraZeneca and bought J&J? Perhaps there is another reason! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 17, 2021, 10:31:18 am
We talked about this a week or two back, the Pfizer vaccine was the first to roll out weeks ahead of AstraZeneca, and health, quarantine and emergency workers got the first doses so by default they all got Pfizer.

You already know that because I know we have already discussed it.
Wouldnt be because we have the AstraZ being locally produced by CSL @around 50 million doses.....cheaper for ScottyM obviously than buying Pfizer, JJ etc etc.....we have all talked about business/politics playing a part in Europe but you cant tell me its not the same here with CSL. The CSL blood plasma business in the USA has stalled due to Covid and lead time is about 6-9 months to get a return, accordingly the share price has dropped and both Scotty and CSL are doing each other a favor...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 10:43:20 am
Wouldnt be because we have the AstraZ being locally produced by CSL @around 50 million doses.....cheaper for ScottyM obviously than buying Pfizer, JJ etc etc.....we have all talked about business/politics playing a part in Europe but you cant tell me its not the same here with CSL. The CSL blood plasma business in the USA has stalled due to Covid and lead time is about 6-9 months to get a return, accordingly the share price has dropped and both Scotty and CSL are doing each other a favor...
You can't ignore the timeline @ElwoodBlues1.

How could the health workers at MBB's mother's work get AstraZeneca before we actually had any in the country? The first health workers only started getting AstraZeneca last week, the assertion the doctors only get Pfizer is rubbish!

MBB was posing the very same question a couple of weeks back, days before AstraZeneca even arrived in the country. The assertion/conspiracy is all built on social media rumours that are baseless. The irony being if you want to be worried about a new technology, it's the mRNA vaccines you should be more worried about! ;)

I notice you quote a lot of business / corporate investment related COVID-19 facts, I gather this comes from some corporate rag, for example the blood plasma business stalled comments you made above. What is the relevance of this downturn in altering vaccine production decisions? Aren't all those plasma business in the same boat because there are less blood donations, so there is no inherent bias across the board!

My main concern isn't funding CSL, it's why we are preferentially funding CSL for expanding old technologies, as I've mentioned before if mRNA proves safe and efficacious that older adenovirus technology could quickly become redundant. My associate asked this question to a top CSL executive at a recent sporting event, his response was they Feds will fund a second round of upgrades to include the new mRNA technologies anyway, upgrading capacity of the existing technologies was a faster to market situation! However, long term if the adenovirus route offers vaccines in a pill or nasal spray the old technology could win out, so I can understand why they aren't throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 17, 2021, 10:44:51 am
Clearly wrote she is to receive it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 10:57:02 am
Clearly wrote she is to receive it.
As will ten of thousands of other health and allied health industry workers starting from last week, because now it is available when before it wasn't. ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 17, 2021, 11:19:01 am
You can't ignore the timeline @ElwoodBlues1.

How could the health workers at MBB's mother's work get AstraZeneca before we actually had any in the country? The first health workers only started getting AstraZeneca last week, the assertion the doctors only get Pfizer is rubbish!

MBB was posing the very same question a couple of weeks back, days before AstraZeneca even arrived in the country. The assertion/conspiracy is all built on social media rumours that are baseless. The irony being if you want to be worried about a new technology, it's the mRNA vaccines you should be more worried about! ;)

I notice you quote a lot of business / corporate investment related COVID-19 facts, I gather this comes from some corporate rag, for example the blood plasma business stalled comments you made above. What is the relevance of this downturn in altering vaccine production decisions? Aren't all those plasma business in the same boat because there are less blood donations, so there is no inherent bias across the board!

My main concern isn't funding CSL, it's why we are preferentially funding CSL for expanding old technologies, as I've mentioned before if mRNA proves safe and efficacious that older adenovirus technology could quickly become redundant. My associate asked this question to a top CSL executive at a recent sporting event, his response was they Feds will fund a second round of upgrades to include the new mRNA technologies anyway, upgrading capacity of the existing technologies was a faster to market situation! However, long term if the adenovirus route offers vaccines in a pill or nasal spray the old technology could win out, so I can understand why they aren't throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Relevance is CSL need the business and Scotty needs a cheap vaccine to give to the plebs. The CSL share price has dropped about $50 and you got to keep the shareholders happy...
CSL also had a failed union with the Uni of Queensland to create their own vaccine and were/are very keen to stay in vaccine market.
Of course the locally produced variety hasn't been approved by the TGA yet..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 11:23:21 am
Relevance is CSL need the business and Scotty needs a cheap vaccine to give to the plebs. The CSL share price has dropped about $50 and you got to keep the shareholders happy...
CSL also had a failed union with the Uni of Queensland to create their own vaccine and were/are very keen to stay in vaccine market.
Of course the locally produced variety hasn't been approved by the TGA yet..
@ElwoodBlues1 Who else produces mass vaccines locally?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 17, 2021, 11:26:33 am
No because we have global stats that expose the likely truth that can't be dismissed as opinion.

The actions so far of those nations fly in the face of the evidence, it is not supported by evidence.

I can't believe you accept such trivial evidence the vaccines aren't safe, while denying the weight of such overwhelming evidence the vaccines are safe. Hypocrisy?
See that is what you are missing in this debate, with you its all black and white. It's not.

These vaccines are are all safe, nobody should stop them.
Or
You are anti vaccine who want them stopped.

How about, double checking a few things. Look at why large countries around the world are getting cold feet and reevaluating before we walk right off the cliff.

I'm just suggesting a cautious response. I'm suggesting there are things we might not know about side effects.... specifically long term that we cannot possibly know right now.
I'm suggesting that just because a government says it safe, doesn't mean it can't be safer.

These issues might have nothing to do with the vaccine specifically, maybe its the syringes, swabs or whatever else. Maybe it's nothing.
But..... there is no harm in checking, double checking and triple checking before we proceed.... and then checking one more time to be sure.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 11:29:44 am
See that is what you are missing in this debate, with you its all black and white. It's not.

These vaccines are are all safe, nobody should stop them.
Or
You are anti vaccine who want them stopped.
I've already stated caution and scepticism are a critical part of the process when based on valid scientific evidence. I've mentioned that multiple times.

So the root assumption of your post is wrong.

@kruddler  Why do you think the checking, double checking and triple checking haven't already been if not being done at the moment?

We then get back to Sir Karl Popper's question, "What evidence do you need to prove to yourself a vaccine is safe?" You don't have to answer that, but you should think about it as should any other interested readers!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 17, 2021, 11:33:08 am
The decision to suspend the vaccines in those European countries is more political than scientific. That is my contention, and I believe it's also LP's contention.

Caution and risk/reward are not black and white. What may seem overly and unnecessarily cautious to some is seen by others as reasonable precaution.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 17, 2021, 11:33:27 am
I've already stated caution and scepticism are a critical part of the process when based on valid scientific evidence. I've mentioned that multiple times.

So the root assumption of your post is wrong.

@kruddler  Why do you think the checking, double checking and triple checking haven't already been if not being done at the moment?
If my root assumption is wrong, you wouldn't be arguing against me.

Never said they are not being done. Just saying in the scheme of things, if we delay the rollout (for those who want too) then nobody gets hurt. The virus is basically dead in the country currently. We are afforded somewhat of a luxury in dealing with this in terms of time compared to other countries......lets use some of it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 11:37:36 am
Never said they are not being done. Just saying in the scheme of things, if we delay the rollout (for those who want too) then nobody gets hurt. The virus is basically dead in the country currently. We are afforded somewhat of a luxury in dealing with this in terms of time compared to other countries......lets use some of it.
You can't pose the question and deny making the inference, it's inherent in the question. Whether that is specifically targeted at me to answer as part of this debate, or a rhetorical question posed for the benefit of other readers is irrelevant. Really, posing the checking, double checking and triple checking question just comes across as tricky and evasive, you imply it is not already happening as part of the act of making the statement, that takes us back to Sir Karl Popper.

The COVID-19 virus is dead in the country, except in sewerage facilities pretty much everywhere rural or urban!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 17, 2021, 11:41:15 am
You can't pose the question...
What question are you referring too exactly?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 11:44:17 am
What question are you referring too exactly?
 See above, I'm on my phone so I usually post a bit before it gets too long to retype if I'm interrupted. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 17, 2021, 11:45:28 am
I'd be curious to know where the tipping point lies. Is there a magic number at which point suspending the AZ vaccine is justifiable ? If there was one death per country after taking the vaccine, would that justify suspension ? What about 3 blood clot incidents per country ? Would that justify suspension ? Unless the only level of risk you are prepared to tolerate is zero, there must be a tipping point that starts to spook people, and I'm wondering why the numbers currently in circulation would cause that, because statistically they seem very small.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 17, 2021, 11:49:07 am
You can't pose the question and deny making the inference, it's inherent in the question. Whether that is specifically targeted at me to answer as part of this debate, or a rhetorical question posed for the benefit of other readers is irrelevant. Really, posing the checking, double checking and triple checking question just comes across as tricky and evasive, you imply it is not already happening as part of the act of making the statement, that takes us back to Sir Karl Popper.

The COVID-19 virus is dead in the country, except in sewerage facilities pretty much everywhere rural or urban!
I don't imply that it is not already happening, (again with the black and white) i imply that it is not yet finished....or if it then it was not done thoroughly enough to begin with.

Since other countries have started getting cold feet, which is what in the last week or 2....and those numbers are growing....you believe that we have canvassed each of those countries, got their reasons for doing so, done our own research off the back of that and come to the conclusion that everything is still fine and dandy?
You have much more faith in our government than i do.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 11:49:23 am
I'd be curious to know where the tipping point lies. Is there a magic number at which point suspending the AZ vaccine is justifiable ? If there was one death per country after taking the vaccine, would that justify suspension ? What about 3 blood clot incidents per country ? Would that justify suspension ? Unless the only level of risk you are prepared to tolerate is zero, there must be a tipping point that starts to spook people, and I'm wondering why the numbers currently in circulation would cause that, because statistically they seem very small.
I think the critical point @PaulP‍ is that the deaths have to be over and above the normal level for such incidents, and the scientists are telling us they aren't.

I note some of the countries that had paused have now announced the intention to resume overnight after the EU peaks body stated there was no valid reason to suspend. The dissenters can't defeat the stats with opinion, and if they continue to dissent the liability from the consequences of leaving people unvaccinated are huge!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 17, 2021, 11:51:13 am
I'd be curious to know where the tipping point lies. Is there a magic number at which point suspending the AZ vaccine is justifiable ? If there was one death per country after taking the vaccine, would that justify suspension ? What about 3 blood clot incidents per country ? Would that justify suspension ? Unless the only level of risk you are prepared to tolerate is zero, there must be a tipping point that starts to spook people, and I'm wondering why the numbers currently in circulation would cause that, because statistically they seem very small.

Exactly.....so why is it happening?
Dig deeper and you will find one of 2 things.
1. Countries are jumping at shadows and those numbers are well within the acceptable ranges of these things.
2. There is another problem that is actually behind the suspensions.

My contention is there is no harm in doing our own research into what these other countries are seeing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 11:52:35 am
Since other countries have started getting cold feet, which is what in the last week or 2....
Some countries are now announcing the intention to resume overnight, after the EU peak body told them the suspension was unfounded.

I can't believe that intention to resume has happened so quickly by the way.

That tells you the initial suspension process was dubious if not corrupt, right from the start!

We will know in two or three days, but that flip time frame isn't coming from a scientific investigation result, it's either bureaucratic or political.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 11:57:12 am
Exactly.....so why is it happening?
Dig deeper and you will find one of 2 things.
1. Countries are jumping at shadows and those numbers are well within the acceptable ranges of these things.
2. There is another problem that is actually behind the suspensions.

My contention is there is no harm in doing our own research into what these other countries are seeing.
There is nothing wrong with digging deeper, as long as finding aren't cherry-picked.

1. Is true based purely on the stats, and unbiased actuary or epidemiologist will give you that advice.

2. Is at this time a fiction based on nothing at all but imagination.

btw; How common is thrombosis?

For reference the global average for DVT, just one of the four forms of clot claimed to be at issue, the lifetime occurrence is 2% to 5%, which I believe equates to 1 in every 1000 per year of those vaccinated coincidentally getting DVT, or half of all the registered global clot cases from just one coincidental cause, of course it's the most common cause! Most will have a sore leg, arm or headache and won't even report it, as many minor clots go unnoticed as a muscle strain or minor pain, it is possible health professionals are now detecting more of these due to "Awareness"?

Don't ask me how those stats work out it's above my pay grade, I just believe the mathematicians.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 17, 2021, 12:00:55 pm
Some countries are now announcing the intention to resume overnight, after the EU peak body told them the suspension was unfounded.

I can't believe that intention to resume has happened so quickly by the way.

That tells you the initial suspension process was dubious if not corrupt, right from the start!

We will know in two or three days, but that flip time frame isn't coming from a scientific investigation result, it's either bureaucratic or political.
The question is, was the reason to stop it or start it political....or both.
Perhaps the reason to suspend it was scientific.....perhaps not made public.....and the pressure to start it up again was political.

Too many variables. Further digging required.

With any luck, its all above board.
However, as i said from the beginning, i'm not going to be the first person lined up for it when it happens. Simply more risk involved being at the front of the queue. Acceptable risk, possibly, but more risk regardless.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 17, 2021, 12:03:54 pm
There is nothing wrong with digging deeper, as long as finding aren't cherry-picked.

1. Is true based purely on the stats, and unbiased actuary or epidemiologist will give you that advice.

2. Is a fiction based on nothing at all but imagination.

If the police get wind of a bomb threat. It falls into those 2 categories.

With a bit of digging and investigation, they can work out which one.
No harm in doing some thorough police work.....consequences could bad if you assume one or the other.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 17, 2021, 12:15:14 pm
The question is, was the reason to stop it or start it political....or both.
Perhaps the reason to suspend it was scientific.....perhaps not made public.....and the pressure to start it up again was political.

Too many variables. Further digging required.

With any luck, its all above board.
However, as i said from the beginning, i'm not going to be the first person lined up for it when it happens. Simply more risk involved being at the front of the queue. Acceptable risk, possibly, but more risk regardless.


Logical.

Question everything and question everything again.

Initially I stated this to those advocates of ivermectin remdesivir etc that why push a drug if you're certain the virus is harmless? 

That got a few thinking hard. 

The real question is, why push anything at all at this stage? 

I dont understand why any Australian is so confident of any vaccine truths or untruths.  We have less than 30000 confirmed covid cases to base any assertion of effectiveness of any vaccine so therefore we are either using a test lab to base our vaccine effectiveness on, or we are using another nations data.

Either way I'm uncomfortable with any assertion the vaccine actually works, let alone whether or not its safe for human use.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 12:28:24 pm
Logical.

Question everything and question everything again.

Initially I stated this to those advocates of ivermectin remdesivir etc that why push a drug if you're certain the virus is harmless? 

That got a few thinking hard. 

The real question is, why push anything at all at this stage? 

I dont understand why any Australian is so confident of any vaccine truths or untruths.  We have less than 30000 confirmed covid cases to base any assertion of effectiveness of any vaccine so therefore we are either using a test lab to base our vaccine effectiveness on, or we are using another nations data.

Either way I'm uncomfortable with any assertion the vaccine actually works, let alone whether or not its safe for human use.
Which is why I also asked you Popper's question weeks back, that should really get you hard thinking! ;)

PS; The concept the virus is dead or extinct in Australia is also a pure fallacy, and a very very dangerous one!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 17, 2021, 12:30:19 pm
Either way I'm uncomfortable with any assertion the vaccine actually works, let alone whether or not its safe for human use.

I'm not sure if this has been covered already, but the thought just popped into my head, so i'll expand on it here.

From my understanding, these vaccines dont stop you from getting the virus, they just make it more manageable i guess. Dull the symptoms etc.
Given that, it is believed that once the vaccine has been rolled out we will return to a more normal way of life. Travel etc.

Going a step further......that will likely increase the amount of transmissions of the virus in the public.
Since the elderly (and other immune weakened people) are more likely to be affected (in the short term at least - worst case scenario is death) are they more likely to get Covid now due to the increased number transmitting the virus....potentially unknowingly due to dulled symptoms. However, since they are still in a high risk category, could still have serious issues with it, even if they've had the vaccine.

End result, is it not simply a numbers game?
% chance of getting the virus increases <-> chance of death decreases

Hypothetically....
If the vaccine is 50% effective, but the general public are 500% more likely to get it, are you not more at risk from dying from it than you were previously?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 12:39:17 pm
As an aside, I have only a couple of valid contacts for the USA, people I can trust regardless of politics. Both I use to verify what we see in news or social media is realistically reported.

Coincidentally, one contact is quite valid for confirming the COVID-19 situation, his daughter who he loves dearly is a Federal Head of Emergency Medicine for a large segment covering some of the south eastern states. This is something that causes him significant stress, for good reason obviously.

He's told me this morning, evening his time, his daughter just rang as she does most nights and the widespread vaccination rate has seen new cases falling dramatically, hospital wards are no longer over-flowing. They've strategically targeted the most vulnerable with vaccine rollout, the relief in his voice is palpable. There is someway to go of course, but once hospitals are no longer over-loaded the death rate will plummet, it's all about how many and how fast!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 12:44:23 pm
Hypothetically....
If the vaccine is 50% effective, but the general public are 500% more likely to get it, are you not more at risk from dying from it than you were previously?
@kruddler  Efficacy figures as reported are not simple as the media interpretations make out, it's a combination of symptom prevention, infection susceptibility and transmission prevention.

50% efficacy won't mean that the severe symptoms aren't prevented in close to 100% of the vaccinated. 50% it can mean some are protected but can still get or transmit the virus at 50% of the virus Ro value.

Yes, a more transmissible virus is far more deadly than a less transmissible virus regardless of the lethality. For this reason it's wrong for the vaccinated to freely circulate among the unvaccinated, without continuing the use of protective measures.

Ironically, a virus that is more lethal can often kill less as the host dies too soon to transmit, deaths are a function of lethality versus transmission. You could make the absurd analogy that a bullet is the most lethal virus, but once you've had it you won't spread it!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 17, 2021, 12:45:15 pm
As an aside, I have only a couple of valid contacts for the USA, people I can trust regardless of politics. Both I use to verify what we see in news or social media is realistically reported.

Coincidentally, one contact is quite valid for confirming the COVID-19 situation, his daughter who he loves dearly is a Federal Head of Emergency Medicine for a large segment covering some of the south eastern states. This is something that causes him significant stress, for good reason obviously.

He's told me this morning, evening his time, his daughter just rang as she does most nights and the widespread vaccination rate has seen new cases falling dramatically, hospital wards are no longer over-flowing. They've strategically targeted the most vulnerable with vaccine rollout, the relief in his voice is palpable. There is someway to go of course, but once hospitals are no longer over-loaded the death rate will plummet, it's all about how many and how fast!

Note to LP, we live in Australia. ;)

Death rates due to overflowing hospitals are one thing. We don't have that here.

When i say the virus is basically dead here, its a relative term using places like the states as 'alive' comparison.

Our death rate is basically zero at the moment.....when people get out and about and spread it.....could it go back up....even if it is only to 5 or 10. Are they considered collateral damage for the greater good?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 17, 2021, 12:51:13 pm
Note to LP, we live in Australia. ;)

Death rates due to overflowing hospitals are one thing. We don't have that here.

When i say the virus is basically dead here, its a relative term using places like the states as 'alive' comparison.

Our death rate is basically zero at the moment.....when people get out and about and spread it.....could it go back up....even if it is only to 5 or 10. Are they considered collateral damage for the greater good?
To be clear, they only way it will be around and for it spread here, we first need to let it into the country correct? That is, returned travelers, sports people, airline staff etc.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 12:51:34 pm
Note to LP, we live in Australia. ;)
If someone doubts the vaccines work, isn't that a valid example regardless of where you live?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 12:53:08 pm
To be clear, they only way it will be around and for it spread here, we first need to let it into the country correct? That is, returned travelers, sports people, airline staff etc.
At this stage the virus is endemic, that is why they are finding live Sars-CoV-2 virus in sewerage water sampling in every Australian state. It is now in the "pretty much likely to be permanently in the environment we live in" category, it is not extinct and it is not "dead"!

Things could get bad quickly if it again goes zoonotic, assuming it was zoonotic previously.
(I think that debate is well and truly settled, even if we can't call it the China Bat Virus for political reasons.)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 17, 2021, 12:58:31 pm
At this stage the virus is endemic, that is why they are finding live Sars-CoV-2 virus in sewerage water sampling in every Australian state. It is now in the pretty much likely to be permanently in the environment we live in, it is not extinct and it is not "dead"!

Things could get bad quickly if it again goes zoonotic, assuming it was zoonotic previously.

Yes, this is a tricky time - when people start to get complacent, thinking that the worst is behind us.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2021, 01:00:43 pm
An associate I know who field services equipment for the water authorities got a chill the other night, he stood at dusk watching bats on the wing scoop water or bugs off the top of one of the local sewerage ponds. For him the connection was obvious, while some in bureaucracy still ponder how they are finding COVID-19 at widely dispersed sewerage facilities.

Perhaps a sign of a danger caused by refusing to call a spade a spade!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 17, 2021, 03:41:34 pm
We're talking all the major European nations - not Montenegro and Sardinia!

And there are dozens of eminent scientists/doctors expressing concerns.....

Playing a consensus card - is facile.

Whilst it's possible that these countries have smarter and more cautious politicians / scientists, it's also possible they are acting out of wariness / self preservation of being "the careless one" if they don't follow the leader. There's also the reality that those countries are in close proximity to one another, and share a number of things in common.  They are also part of a union, which in my view is also a factor. For now, Western European and Scandinavian countries make up the most of the suspensions. The data changes faster than one can type, but so far as I can tell, some of the countries that have suspended AZ have not actually experienced any issues within their own borders. The fact that the suspensions have thus far occurred in a localised geographical area should at least give one pause for thought.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 17, 2021, 05:07:44 pm
I hope none of the 17 million who received the AZ vaccine died of old age. It’ll be far worse than the conspiracy theory that the MMR vaccine caused autism. Imagine: don’t take the AZ vaccine or you’ll die of old age, even if you’re 18  ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 17, 2021, 05:31:48 pm
I've heard that the AZ vaccine could turn you into an avid Bombers supporter! 😳
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 17, 2021, 05:35:08 pm
I've heard that the AZ vaccine could turn you into an avid Bombers supporter! 😳
whatever it takes
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 17, 2021, 06:32:00 pm
I have never had any doubt about the Europeans propensity for getting into a bunfight about any damned thing.  This is just simply more proof of petty politics.  Stuff 'em.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 17, 2021, 11:06:20 pm
The decision to suspend the vaccines in those European countries is more political than scientific. That is my contention, and I believe it's also LP's contention.

Caution and risk/reward are not black and white. What may seem overly and unnecessarily cautious to some is seen by others as reasonable precaution.

Nailed it Paul.  Politicians worrying about their re-election chances rather than the health and well-being of their constituents.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 17, 2021, 11:08:43 pm
I've heard that the AZ vaccine could turn you into an avid Bombers supporter! 😳

In that case, no jab for me!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 17, 2021, 11:27:18 pm
Which is why I also asked you Popper's question weeks back, that should really get you hard thinking! ;)

PS; The concept the virus is dead or extinct in Australia is also a pure fallacy, and a very very dangerous one!


I didn't answer your question because frankly it was a stupid question.

I'll give you reasons people in a hospital don't catch Rona.

1.  Hand hygiene hand hygiene hand hygiene.
2.  Ppe
3.  Negative pressure air conditioning
4.  You don't eat with someone you don't know is positive.
5. You don't sleep with someone you don't know is POS.
6.  You was so frequently you're more chance of eating hand hygiene alcohol than virus.


The virus doesn't need to be dead.  People test positive for quite some time after they've tested POS so any Rona turds could be from already confirmed cases irrespective of what's been found recently.  Hospitals also have turds flushed into regular sewage.

We have 0 community transmission right now, its ludicrous that any measures are still being enforced and the longer we go without cases but with measures the more people are going to ignore any future mask mandates.

The tide is turning out there.  More people are losing belief in the pandemic and its because its been rammed down their throat that its all for your own good but ignore the inconsistencies and have blind faith we're looking out for you like we normally do when we make policy on the run, spend billions of tax payer dollars on white elephants, lie, participate in branch stacking, have leadership spills on an elected prime minister,  spend more money to win votes rather than do what's right and generally mismanage many different facets of their actual job.

So forgive those who are not blind sheep to the current health advice.  There are plenty of reasons to believe we are being fed bull manure and not many to actually believe them. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 18, 2021, 07:43:59 am
50% capacity for the G.

70% capacity for indoor movie theatres.

Who are these buffoons?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 18, 2021, 08:03:34 am
@flyboy77 How dare you question the science !!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2021, 08:12:14 am
@flyboy77 How dare you question the science !!!
It's not always science, sometimes bureaucracy, there is a big difference.

It may well be another sign of political pressure, like the AstraZeneca suspension.

But I wouldn't assume that cinemas and theatres haven't been forced to make significant changes to ventilation.

@capcom‍ Remember the Aircraft are flying virus tin cans debate, you know the general publics perception of that is wrong because you know about aircraft ventilation and how much engineering and science goes into it.

But if you want the science details, it turns out that opening windows or increasing ventilation in conjunction with social distancing decreases the possible transmission of the virus by 50% to 70%. There is some nice research done on this by Cath Noakes if you care to search her name and read it you'll be surprised how beneficial clean airflow is. Not that it is new, the actual concept has been around since Florence Nightingale.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 18, 2021, 08:56:07 am
50% capacity for the G.

70% capacity for indoor movie theatres.

Who are these buffoons?

Adelaide, Perth, Sydney 75%
Brisbane 100%
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 18, 2021, 09:00:25 am
Plenty of ventilation at the G. Will Marvel be allowed more with the roof open than closed. I guess "the science " is working on it ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 18, 2021, 09:49:01 am
The ramifications of political interference in the AstraZeneca vaccine rollout are being exposed:

Quote
Hospitals are filling up again, and politicians in several European countries have been forced to consider fresh lockdowns, even as comparable rich countries prepare for normal life to return.

“We need this vaccine,” said Germany’s best-known virologist Christian Drosten, whose regular podcast is widely followed. He cited forecasts of a resurgence in infection by Easter that could endanger Germans over the age of 60 who are next in line for a shot.

Ian Jones, a professor of virology at Britian’s Reading University, said the blood clot issue had “been picked up by politicians who don’t know one side of a virus from another”.

“It’s like falling dominoes. You just need one or two (countries) to state there’s a problem and suspend use, and then a whole lot of others will fall in place. I don’t think there have been any independent decisions.”
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-astrazeneca-europe-idUSKBN2B91XQ
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 18, 2021, 09:57:46 am
Plenty of ventilation at the G. Will Marvel be allowed more with the roof open than closed. I guess "the science " is working on it ?

What concerns me about the G are the queues for the bars and dunnies.  Even with a relatively small crowd, the dunnies are as crowded as cattle trucks.  The members’ bars aren’t really much of an improvement.

I wonder if the modelling takes the dunnie queues into account 🤔😷
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 18, 2021, 10:03:06 am
@flyboy77 How dare you question the science !!!
Or Comrade Dan
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 18, 2021, 10:36:31 am

@capcom‍ Remember the Aircraft are flying virus tin cans debate, you know the general publics perception of that is wrong because you know about aircraft ventilation and how much engineering and science goes into it.

But if you want the science details, it turns out that opening windows or increasing ventilation in conjunction with social distancing decreases the possible transmission of the virus by 50% to 70%. There is some nice research done on this by Cath Noakes if you care to search her name and read it you'll be surprised how beneficial clean airflow is. Not that it is new, the actual concept has been around since Florence Nightingale.

Thanks LP ... given the air is purged / renewed / recycled every 90 seconds for the entire cabin, it was a complete nonsense discussion from the beginning.

Not always the case though with less than modern aircraft.  Got stuck in FCL on an Aer Lingus 747 in 1978 with an obnoxious Irishman smoking fat cigars 2 rows behind me.  The whole joint stunk.

So I kicked up my own stink.   It worked :)

Yes, I'm aware of Noakes work.  She sure knows her stuff.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 18, 2021, 10:47:47 am
50% capacity for the G.

70% capacity for indoor movie theatres.

Who are these buffoons?

Well, I don't know how it happened, but I find myself in 100% agreement with you. I may need a therapist  ;) . This arbitrary figure of 50%, for an outdoor venue, compared to other public gathering places, etc., defies logic. Does 60% or more suddenly and dramatically increase risk exponentially? Nuh.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2021, 11:01:48 am
Latest cohort studies from Scotland, released in early March this year, using the entire Scottish population of 5.4M people, also a double blind study with 1.2M vaccinated and 1.2M unvaccinated people.

Both COVID-19 vaccines, 50/50 Pfizer and AstraZeneca, reduced severe infections by 85% on average just 7 days after receiving the vaccines, and reduced hospital admissions by 90%.

At 28 days Pfizer exhibited 85% efficacy, AstraZeneca exhibited 92% efficacy. This is predicted based on how the various vaccines work, antibody which is short term or Memory T-Cell which is long term.

Even better news, both vaccines have been shown to also inhibit transmission in populations older than 65 years, by between 40% and 70%.

Search = Aziz Sheikh, Edinburgh University; Mike Weekes, Cambridge University and Addenbrooke's Hospital

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 18, 2021, 11:50:22 am
The ramifications of political interference in the AstraZeneca vaccine rollout are being exposed:


Drosten. You quote Drosten?

You've been sucked in by the spin masters David.

He's one of the great shills for the 'industry'!

https://cormandrostenreview.com/report/

Read that and weep.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2021, 11:53:03 am
If you thought the EU AstraZeneca situation wasn't political, look at the developments overnight.

 - First off, a week or so ago, many EU countries state AstraZeneca is suspended it's no good we don't want it.

 - Now overnight, many of the same countries, if AstraZeneca keep exporting it we are going to seize the factories, we are in crisis we need it desperately!

It sounds like the original suspension was more about scaring off non-EU suitors, like a troll hugging his dinner refusing to share, "you don't want that stuff it'll kill you only trolls can eat it!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2021, 11:56:04 am
The ramifications of political interference in the AstraZeneca vaccine rollout are being exposed:

Ian Jones, a professor of virology at Britian’s Reading University, said the blood clot issue had “been picked up by politicians who don’t know one side of a virus from another”.
Love it, so so true!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2021, 11:59:30 am
Drosten. You quote Drosten?

You've been sucked in by the spin masters David.
@flyboy77‍  I don't think @DJC has been sucked in by anybody! ;)

Shill is an interesting term to use, does it feel like a mirror?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 18, 2021, 12:02:30 pm
The EU is in blind panic. Its vaccination program is in disarray and infection rates are not under control.  Who to blame???
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2021, 12:16:13 pm
The EU is in blind panic. Its vaccination program is in disarray and infection rates are not under control.  Who to blame???
The EU's erratic behaviour is fodder for the paranoid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 18, 2021, 12:32:22 pm
The EU's erratic behaviour is fodder for the paranoid.
The erratic behaviour of the rest of the world at the start of this pandemic was similar. Those that had the 'everything will be fine' attitude were left regretting it.

Fool me once...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2021, 12:38:22 pm
The erratic behaviour of the rest of the world at the start of this pandemic was similar. Those that had the 'everything will be fine' attitude were left regretting it.

Fool me once...
Some of the EU is on a merry-go-round, repeating the mistakes of last year like they have no short term memory, it appears partly driven by those who proselytize freedom and wealth over health! I suppose this is the pain of the economic impacts coming home, especially to those who thought they could ignore or ride out the long term warnings.

What good preserving the freedom and wealth of the dead?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 18, 2021, 01:22:27 pm
We are not the EU and as long as we maintain good border controls, testing/monitoring we dont have to run around in a panic jabbing anything with a pulse with vaccines that have question marks on them even small question marks.
We can afford to sit back and learn from these other nations who are in a jabbing frenzy because they never had proper control to start with. ie England.....half the population wouldnt know what planet they are on, Boris initiated controls too late and now is playing catchup and hoping AstraZ will be save the day.....we are smarter than them and dont need to be in a frenzy.
My daughters Australian school friend who lives in England had her 1st dose of AstraZ and has been extremely ill, she is 34 and a healthy young woman normally with a decent career as a Psychologist  which is now on hold till she recovers.
These vaccines are no sure thing to be an instant fix and come with problems, lets be careful out there and minimize the risks in Australia...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2021, 01:26:15 pm
We are not the EU and as long as we maintain good border controls, testing/monitoring we dont have to run around in a panic jabbing anything with a pulse with vaccines that have question marks on them even small question marks.
We can afford to sit back and learn from these other nations who are in a jabbing frenzy because they never had proper control to start with. ie England.....half the population wouldnt know what planet they are on, Boris initiated controls too late and now is playing catchup and hoping AstraZ will be save the day.....we are smarter than them and dont need to be in a frenzy.
My daughters Australian school friend who lives in England had her 1st dose of AstraZ and has been extremely ill, she is 34 and a healthy young woman normally with a decent career as a Psychologist  which is now on hold till she recovers.
These vaccines are no sure thing to be an instant fix and come with problems, lets be careful out there and minimize the risks in Australia...
Fair enough, we wish her well, but for every sad story you can quote there will be 1 or 10 with a minimal reaction you never hear about, just like Flu shots.

Of course that isn't unusual, it actually makes sense, when a person has minimal side effects you don't hear from them and it's business as usual, but if they get severe side effects they suffer and tell the world like an obligatory warning!

It's asymmetrical reporting and well recognised in research, which is why the UK doesn't operate an unverified and uncontrolled self-reporting system like VAERS.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 18, 2021, 01:33:47 pm
We are not the EU and as long as we maintain good border controls, testing/monitoring we dont have to run around in a panic jabbing anything with a pulse with vaccines that have question marks on them even small question marks.
We can afford to sit back and learn from these other nations who are in a jabbing frenzy because they never had proper control to start with. ie England.....half the population wouldnt know what planet they are on, Boris initiated controls too late and now is playing catchup and hoping AstraZ will be save the day.....we are smarter than them and dont need to be in a frenzy.
My daughters Australian school friend who lives in England had her 1st dose of AstraZ and has been extremely ill, she is 34 and a healthy young woman normally with a decent career as a Psychologist  which is now on hold till she recovers.
These vaccines are no sure thing to be an instant fix and come with problems, lets be careful out there and minimize the risks in Australia...
100% correct about border controls, Covid 19 doesn't just appear, you have to let it in. Keep it out (ie travellers and airline workers, there is no virus and we can afford to wait. Having said, I'm sure there some shenanigans going on in Europe with AZ vaccine suspension. More to it than meets the eye.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2021, 01:43:02 pm
100% correct about border controls, Covid 19 doesn't just appear, you have to let it in. Keep it out (ie travellers and airline workers, there is no virus and we can afford to wait. Having said, I'm sure there some shenanigans going on in Europe with AZ vaccine suspension. More to it than meets the eye.
@Gointocarlton‍ COVID-19 is endemic, it's already here.

Canada and I think France did big studies on the effects of border controls and airline shutdowns, they showed that once the virus was endemic and spreading closing borders and shutting down flights made little difference. They found the biggest impact comes from widespread testing and quarantine, I presume by quarantine they mean effective quarantine, not just shipping your infected cases off to another state. ;)

It's a fools confidence to think COVID-19 won't resurface while borders remain closed, it's already here, not vaccinating invites the next wave!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 18, 2021, 02:08:31 pm
@Gointocarlton‍ COVID-19 is endemic, it's already here.

Canada and I think France did big studies on the effects of border controls and airline shutdowns, they showed that once the virus was endemic and spreading closing borders and shutting down flights made little difference. They found the biggest impact comes from widespread testing and quarantine, I presume by quarantine they mean effective quarantine, not just shipping your infected cases off to another state. ;)

It's a fools confidence to think COVID-19 won't resurface while borders remain closed, it's already here, not vaccinating invites the next wave!
So we go zero cases for several weeks, where do the cases from?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 18, 2021, 02:47:56 pm
I can well understand the UK outlook.  They are in panic mode and have been for a year or more.   Almost "any port in a storm" will suit their needs.

They've been thru hell, believe me.  As many as 1500 deaths a day for months on end, lockdowns, waiting 'til midnite to order their groceries on a first come, first serve basis, isolation with almost no physical contact .... a vicarious sense of freedom where there is none.

No wonder I get so many emigration questions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2021, 02:51:55 pm
So we go zero cases for several weeks, where do the cases from?
They are still finding live virus is sewerage water, they even found some in Brisbane sewerage when they hadn't had a live locally transmitted case for months, and now they are hoping like hell for no further positives and avoid a lockdown.

It just means they haven't found the infected for any number of reasons. Either people aren't coming forward because the symptoms are mild, that has become a problem recently as suffers feel persecuted or it may be kids and mum and dad do not want to be locked down with them, or they could be asymptomatic, or even worse it might be spreading or building in some non-human vector like birds, bats or rats.

Either way they know it's still here in the environment, the hunt is on, and winter is coming!

Why is winter important, because just like the Flu season the virus lives longer and can circulate further in cool air or on cool damp surfaces.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 18, 2021, 03:00:51 pm
Hotel quarantine establishments are presumably connected in to the sewage system?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2021, 03:04:19 pm
Hotel quarantine establishments are presumably connected in to the sewage system?
True, some specific locations are isolated and treated separately, but they know which locations are connected to which plants anyway.

But not all sewerage systems are interconnected, they can't explain how the virus is appearing in widely diverse locations. They believe it is possibly the previously infected having a mild recurrence.

Also, the testing is much finer grained, they are out taking samples from sewerage mains in local streets, not all positive samples are coming from treatment sites at the end of the rainbow. Brisbane's recent positive's initially came from street testing, not from a sewerage plant.

Wear your mask in public to be safe.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 18, 2021, 03:10:23 pm
Drosten. You quote Drosten?

You've been sucked in by the spin masters David.

He's one of the great shills for the 'industry'!

https://cormandrostenreview.com/report/

Read that and weep.

Yes Fly, I wept with laughter when I read the qualifications and former affiliations of the authors.  There's no point posting links to articles by retired scientists and people from irrelevant fields.  The four authors who actually carried out the analysis are a molecular geneticist, a former 3D artist, a bloke who worked on the human genome project and a urologist.  Of course you know that Eurosurveillance rejected the "International Consortium of Scientists in Life Sciences" review and retraction demand.

Corman and Drosten have acknowledged that "observations based on in silico alignments should be confirmed by wet-laboratory experiments" but pointed out that their work was done on the only available sequences.  This well before the "International Consortium of Scientists in Life Sciences" submitted their "review".

As I'm sure you must know, Drosten has been targeted by political conservatives and right wing media because, in his words, "I'm the evil guy crippling the economy."

It's worth having a look at Drosten's qualifications, career highlights, awards, positions held, etc.  If you're looking for shills, I don't think that you could go past the so-called "International Consortium of Scientists in Life Sciences".
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 18, 2021, 03:33:22 pm
Next you’ll be telling us Lord Monckton isn’t a real scientist and Big Oil & Big Tobacco tried to buy research proving that their industries had nothing to do with lung cancer and climate change respectively ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2021, 03:43:08 pm
Yes Fly, I wept with laughter when I read the qualifications and former affiliations of the authors. 

It's worth having a look at Drosten's qualifications, career highlights, awards, positions held, etc.  If you're looking for shills, I don't think that you could go past the so-called "International Consortium of Scientists in Life Sciences".
They should be re-titled,

"People primarily concerned about the performance of their superannuation fund, regardless of the cost!"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2021, 03:44:35 pm
Next you’ll be telling us Lord Monckton isn’t a real scientist and Big Oil & Big Tobacco tried to buy research proving that their industries had nothing to do with lung cancer and climate change respectively ...
No! :o

Are you accusing some researchers of being motivated by money?

Isn't that proper title "Alleged Lord Monckton"? ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 18, 2021, 03:46:26 pm
Hotel quarantine establishments are presumably connected in to the sewage system?
yes exactly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2021, 03:49:59 pm
yes exactly.
Yes, true.

But when you take a dump in Collins St it doesn't distribute itself evenly around the state stopping off for a coffee at Ballarat or Colac along the way!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 18, 2021, 04:08:30 pm
Yes, true.

But when you take a dump in Collins St it doesn't distribute itself evenly around the state stopping off for a coffee at Ballarat or Colac along the way!
Understood LP, but hotel quarantine crapters will be a large contributor in sewer tests. In any case, I don't care what studies people have done elsewhere, all our outbreaks have had to to with hotel quarantine and/or international traveler/airline staff. Keep them out or properly controlled and we have no problem, it can't manifest itself or grow on a tree.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 18, 2021, 04:10:50 pm
Yes, true.

But when you take a dump in Collins St it doesn't distribute itself evenly around the state stopping off for a coffee at Ballarat or Colac along the way!

Maybe not but it puts the virus out there to be possibly spread by other vectors?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 18, 2021, 04:49:59 pm
Maybe not but it puts the virus out there to be possibly spread by other vectors?
So ends the hope of border patrols, COVID is in New Guinea!

That's a one hot chip flight for a bin chicken!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 18, 2021, 05:29:36 pm
No! :o

Are you accusing some researchers of being motivated by money?

Isn't that proper title "Alleged Lord Monckton"? ;D

Are you admitting that its possible that some things, deemed safe by governments etc, could actually have some long term issues that are swept under the carpet!

Question everything!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 18, 2021, 05:42:45 pm
Wow, the 90s called and wants the X-Files motto back. Or is it the QAnon motto?

Look! There are 1000s of rabbit holes just yonder: go down every one of them and report back in 10 years after they release you from the padded room.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 18, 2021, 05:53:42 pm
Wow, the 90s called and wants the X-Files motto returned. Or is it the QAnon motto?

Look! There are 1000s of rabbit holes just yonder: go down every one of them and report back in 10 years after they release you from the padded room.
Yep. Your right Mav.
Governments in the past were bad.
Governments now are good.

The leader is good, the leader is great... :o

https://youtu.be/U1FxfR3lg6Q
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 18, 2021, 06:13:48 pm
Talking about reporting back after going down the rabbit holes, have you closed the 9/11 conspiracy file as yet?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 18, 2021, 06:20:29 pm
Talking about reporting back after going down the rabbit holes, have you closed the 9/11 conspiracy file as yet?
That is the one conspiracy theory that science backs up and everything else does not.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 18, 2021, 07:10:30 pm
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 18, 2021, 07:15:19 pm
    Can we agree on a few things at least or should we question everything? Let’s start to assemble a few foundational facts:
    • Gravity applies to us
    • Swallowing bleach is bad for you
    • Sunlight isn’t human food.
You can do whatever you want Mav.

Its unlike you to nit pick and miss the take home message.

Oh wait...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 18, 2021, 08:48:24 pm
I’ve had my fill of bull crap conspiracy theories. Hunter Biden’s laptop, 9/11 conspiracies, Antifa being responsible for any right-wing outrage, QAnon, Hillary mudering Seth Rich, alternative facts. I don’t suggest we believe everything stated by governments or scientists, but I don’t subscribe to the idea we should disbelieve everything either. Otherwise there’s no point discussing anything as no one will agree that up is up and down is down.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 18, 2021, 08:59:57 pm
I’ve had my fill of bull crap conspiracy theories. Hunter Biden’s laptop, 9/11 conspiracies, Antifa being responsible for any right-wing outrage, QAnon, Hillary mudering Seth Rich, alternative facts. I don’t suggest we believe everything stated by governments or scientists, but I don’t subscribe to the idea we should disbelieve everything either. Otherwise there’s no point discussing anything as no one will agree that up is up and down is down.

Yes, I agree. No human institution or cultural endeavour is infallible, but society has IMO become so bifurcated and partisan that any opinion or belief that doesn't agree with your own is the result of either corruption or incompetence, or both.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 19, 2021, 07:35:10 am
I’ve had my fill of bull crap conspiracy theories. Hunter Biden’s laptop, 9/11 conspiracies, Antifa being responsible for any right-wing outrage, QAnon, Hillary mudering Seth Rich, alternative facts. I don’t suggest we believe everything stated by governments or scientists, but I don’t subscribe to the idea we should disbelieve everything either. Otherwise there’s no point discussing anything as no one will agree that up is up and down is down.

Good on you.

But if you consider the three WTC buildings were brought down by planes you have a very limited understanding of basic physics - and chemistry for that matter.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 19, 2021, 08:02:59 am
Good on you.

But if you consider the three WTC buildings were brought down by planes you have a very limited understanding of basic physics - and chemistry for that matter.


From that list, I singled this one out and used science as went is different.

It's easy to lump all the eggs in the same basket with the heading conspiracy theory.

It's harder to look into things and think for yourself.
Science calls BS on 9/11!

If the US weren't so focussed on themselves they would realise that their 'story' has more holes than a fly screen and the rest of the world is starting to see through it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 19, 2021, 08:05:18 am
Are you admitting that its possible that some things, deemed safe by governments etc, could actually have some long term issues that are swept under the carpet!

Question everything!
 No, I was taking the piss!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 19, 2021, 08:10:28 am
No, I was taking the piss!
So you are either admitted that governments and 'scientists' help cover up the negatives of smoking etc....or you are completely naive.

Which one is it?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 19, 2021, 08:16:03 am
So you are either admitted that governments and 'scientists' help cover up the negatives of smoking etc....or you are completely naive.

Which one is it?
No, I just know you or others will bite after a loss, it's pointless having any serious topics discussed here today!

Of course, scientists are like any sector of society, is no different to any other. But the chains of decision making you imply are corrupt involve thousands if not tens of thousands of people involved, no one or few have enough control to corrupt the process. The globe isn't the USA, and Trump isn't pulling the strings.

The absence of evidence is not a sign of an even greater conspiracy, the QAnon world isn't real!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 19, 2021, 08:18:48 am
Good on you.

But if you consider the three WTC buildings were brought down by planes you have a very limited understanding of basic physics - and chemistry for that matter.
Another ad hominem attack on a forum poster, who'd have thunk it!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 19, 2021, 08:19:32 am
Yes, I agree. No human institution or cultural endeavour is infallible, but society has IMO become so bifurcated and partisan that any opinion or belief that doesn't agree with your own is the result of either corruption or incompetence, or both.
One of those bifurcated worlds is fantasy, existing only in damaged minds!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 19, 2021, 08:38:17 am
Who would have guessed?

The European Medicines Agency review of the Astrazeneca vaccine found that it is "safe and effective" is "not associated" with a higher risk of blood clots.

Of course, some politicians are still vacillating when they should be vaccinating.
Title: SPLIT: 9/11 Debate
Post by: cookie2 on March 22, 2021, 11:05:17 am
One or more of the messages of this topic have been moved to 9/11 Debate
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 22, 2021, 11:12:53 am
Interesting that the efficacy / economics of the Sinopharm vaccine is now being questioned, the politics of biomed heating up again?

I'm almost certain the vast bulk of this speculation, Sinopharm, AstraZeneca, mRNA, etc., etc., will be more about dubious sales techniques than science, if you are having trouble getting a foot in the door spread an anonymous malicious rumour about the opposition! ;)


Post from LP.....Apologies, accidentally deleted original
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 22, 2021, 05:02:17 pm
Who would have guessed?

The European Medicines Agency review of the Astrazeneca vaccine found that it is "safe and effective" is "not associated" with a higher risk of blood clots.

Of course, some politicians are still vacillating when they should be vaccinating.
An agency that was jointly setup by Big Pharma and has a dubious history of not releasing any research data associated with its findings....not really a surprise they would approve AstraZ.
They were criticized over their handling of the HPV vaccine testing , they allowed drug companies to be their own judges and only the drug companies were allowed access to the research data in a code of secrecy.
They also like employing Big Pharma ex employees.....I would have a dollar or two on that without doing any research..😉
https://corporateeurope.org/en/revolving-doors/2014/06/emas-revolving-door-big-pharma-alive-and-well.

I'd be very dubious of any research carried out or the integrity of the process involving the EMA....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 22, 2021, 11:52:21 pm
An agency that was jointly setup by Big Pharma and has a dubious history of not releasing any research data associated with its findings....not really a surprise they would approve AstraZ.
They were criticized over their handling of the HPV vaccine testing , they allowed drug companies to be their own judges and only the drug companies were allowed access to the research data in a code of secrecy.
They also like employing Big Pharma ex employees.....I would have a dollar or two on that without doing any research..😉
https://corporateeurope.org/en/revolving-doors/2014/06/emas-revolving-door-big-pharma-alive-and-well.

I'd be very dubious of any research carried out or the integrity of the process involving the EMA....

Come on EB! 

The European Medicines Agency (EMA) is an agency of the European Union (EU) responsible for the scientific evaluation, supervision and safety monitoring of medicines in the EU.  It is probably world's best practice in ensuring independence with a management board of 36 who are completely independent of government and the private sector. 

EMA has seven scientific committees that are drawn from the relevant government agencies of each member country and they rely heavily on networks of scientific experts.  They have relatively few staff and don't employ ex-"big pharma" employees.

The European Ombudsman found that the complaint about EMA's safety review of HPV vaccines was without foundation and its "examination of scientific evidence was complete and it was independent."  Of course, the HPV vaccines have been in widespread use for some time now and are safe and effective.

Pharmacy companies contribute funding for the operation of EMA, as they should.  Why should taxpayers foot the bill for research into the quality, safety and efficacy of human and veterinary medicines?

Finally, the EU legislation that set up the EMA requires it to provide all EU citizens with access to all documents with the exception of personal, sensitive and commercially confidential information - almost exactly the same as our Therapeutic Goods Administration restrictions on releasing information.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 23, 2021, 12:13:45 am
Come on EB! 

The European Medicines Agency (EMA) is an agency of the European Union (EU) responsible for the scientific evaluation, supervision and safety monitoring of medicines in the EU.  It is probably world's best practice in ensuring independence with a management board of 36 who are completely independent of government and the private sector. 

EMA has seven scientific committees that are drawn from the relevant government agencies of each member country and they rely heavily on networks of scientific experts.  They have relatively few staff and don't employ ex-"big pharma" employees.

The European Ombudsman found that the complaint about EMA's safety review of HPV vaccines was without foundation and its "examination of scientific evidence was complete and it was independent."  Of course, the HPV vaccines have been in widespread use for some time now and are safe and effective.

Pharmacy companies contribute funding for the operation of EMA, as they should.  Why should taxpayers foot the bill for research into the quality, safety and efficacy of human and veterinary medicines?

Finally, the EU legislation that set up the EMA requires it to provide all EU citizens with access to all documents with the exception of personal, sensitive and commercially confidential information - almost exactly the same as our Therapeutic Goods Administration restrictions on releasing information.

DJ, They do employ Big Pharma employees as you can see in that article, they list them and as you say its Big Pharma money helping fund the EMA. Also the meat of the story of those articles is how the actual testing of medicines is done by the same companies who develop them and how they wont release any of the test data for independent scrutiny under the guise of commercial confidentiality.It doesnt get more sensitive than having a lot of peoples lives on the line and a vaccine of this nature in these circumstances doesnt come under the commercial confidential banner IMHO.
If they have nothing to fear they should allow independent testing and make all their research data available for the safety of all in this case as its a world wide emergency, it shouldnt be about the commercial aspect at all and money, but with Big Pharma it always is The EMA and the WHO have plenty in common.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 23, 2021, 07:20:17 am
https://www.prevention.com/health/a35118263/astrazeneca-vs-pfizer-vs-moderna-covid-19-vaccine/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 23, 2021, 08:00:03 am
This is how insidious the media are.

After days and days of whipping the public into an anti-AstraZeneca frenzy, this is a typical headline they run today.

Quote
‘People are spooked’: Patients snub COVID shots amid unproven blood clot fears

Healthcare experts say European regulators’ move to ‘jump the gun’ and halt rollout of the AstraZeneca vaccine will have a lasting impact on patient confidence.
The commercial media have zero morals and are unprofessional, it's all about profit, even if it comes at the expense of your mental and physical health!

Why aren't they liable, were are the civil cases and class actions against them?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 23, 2021, 08:15:20 am
My auntie in the UK got her first jab, like Thry's brother was sick as a dog for 3 days.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 23, 2021, 08:31:10 am
My auntie in the UK got her first jab, like Thry's brother was sick as a dog for 3 days.
Sorry to hear that, but at least you know it's working.

How many other relatives have had it, I believe the UK is well beyond 1/3rd the population have had at least one shot now?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 23, 2021, 11:40:55 am
0 active cases in the state.

Well done everyone.   Any chance we can resume 100% capacity crowds, and drop the masks?

We aren't getting much of a say either way, which is why so many get frustrated with the response.

I think most would happily flip between mask and no mask if required, but this seems a bit too much to continue with at this point.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 23, 2021, 12:23:19 pm
0 active cases in the state.

Well done everyone.   Any chance we can resume 100% capacity crowds, and drop the masks?

We aren't getting much of a say either way, which is why so many get frustrated with the response.

I think most would happily flip between mask and no mask if required, but this seems a bit too much to continue with at this point.

Masks gone by Fri midnight apart from public transport is what I hear.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 23, 2021, 12:32:23 pm
0 active cases in the state.

Well done everyone.   Any chance we can resume 100% capacity crowds, and drop the masks?

We aren't getting much of a say either way, which is why so many get frustrated with the response.

I think most would happily flip between mask and no mask if required, but this seems a bit too much to continue with at this point.
75% from Rnd 2 is a step in the right direction. 100% wont be far off.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 23, 2021, 12:32:42 pm
Masks gone by Fri midnight apart from public transport is what I hear.
Done, official from 6pm Frid
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 24, 2021, 11:07:24 am
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/astrazeneca-to-publish-full-us-trial-results-after-criticism-of-outdated-data-use-20210324-p57dhy.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 24, 2021, 11:13:37 am
Done, official from 6pm Frid
Think you will find a lot of medical clinics, allied professionals will still want mask wearing for the cooler months not just for Covid but for the normal flu strains etc. They do seem to have proved effective in curbing spread and I think we havent seen the last of them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 24, 2021, 11:17:39 am
Think you will find a lot of medical clinics, allied professionals will still want mask wearing for the cooler months not just for Covid but for the normal flu strains etc. They do seem to have proved effective in curbing spread and I think we havent seen the last of them.
And that's fair enough also, I will have no hesitation wearing a mask when asked to in a particular setting.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 24, 2021, 11:34:18 am
And that's fair enough also, I will have no hesitation wearing a mask when asked to in a particular setting.

I find them useful when robbing banks, servos etc.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 24, 2021, 12:11:31 pm
I find them useful when robbing banks, servos etc.
When you walk into a servo or shop wearing sunnies, baseball cap and mask (as I often do), I cant help but say to myself "this bloke thinks Im here to roll the joint".
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 24, 2021, 01:42:27 pm
More signs of politics in this vaccine saga, Europe has effectively shut off supply, Australia will go exclusively with it's home grown AstraZeneca version.

What a change a week or so ago AstraZeneca was poison in Europe and nobody wanted it, now it's more precious than gold!

Actions expose the folly of words!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 24, 2021, 02:16:52 pm
Think you will find a lot of medical clinics, allied professionals will still want mask wearing for the cooler months not just for Covid but for the normal flu strains etc. They do seem to have proved effective in curbing spread and I think we havent seen the last of them.

Can't agree EB1 as there is zero science that supports the proposition that masks do anything (good).

To digress, the whole 'fear', lockdowns etc. is based on the concoction of asymptomatic spread.

Otherwise, why wouldn't you just quarantine the symptomatic and sick?

A person has no symptoms and no illness = next to no viral load.....this is basic stuff. And widely accepted by the WHO, even into 2020. Fauci too, for that matter.

You accept that (asymptomatic spread) is BS - which again studies show it is (or so remote as to be a statistical irrelance), the wheels of the whole things fall off.

Completely.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 24, 2021, 03:59:03 pm
More signs of politics in this vaccine saga, Europe has effectively shut off supply, Australia will go exclusively with it's home grown AstraZeneca version.

What a change a week or so ago AstraZeneca was poison in Europe and nobody wanted it, now it's more precious than gold!

Actions expose the folly of words!

The EU is run by buffoons.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 24, 2021, 04:25:52 pm
Can't agree EB1 as there is zero science that supports the proposition that masks do anything (good).
Bullcrap!

Science has completely confirmed masks reduce the transmission of droplet born virus by as much as 85%.

It is true that the type of masks the general public wear might not stop aerosol based infection, primarily because the general public do not use disposable masks correctly, but that is a different thing altogether to droplet transmission. However, Dr Cath Noakes has noted controlling air turnover in buildings has a significant influence on reducing aerosol transmission. Aerosol transmission is considered to be very unlikely in open or well ventilated spaces.

Interestingly preliminary indications are this Influenza season will be less prevalent primarily due the wider global use of masks in public spaces.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 24, 2021, 04:54:25 pm
Can't agree EB1 as there is zero science that supports the proposition that masks do anything (good).

To digress, the whole 'fear', lockdowns etc. is based on the concoction of asymptomatic spread.

Otherwise, why wouldn't you just quarantine the symptomatic and sick?

A person has no symptoms and no illness = next to no viral load.....this is basic stuff. And widely accepted by the WHO, even into 2020. Fauci too, for that matter.

You accept that (asymptomatic spread) is BS - which again studies show it is (or so remote as to be a statistical irrelance), the wheels of the whole things fall off.

Completely.
Science may or may not support it Fly but three medical services, GP, Optometrist and Podiatry we use in our area are all going to persist with mask wearing on their premises for the winter months as well as the 1.5m spacing in waiting rooms.
 Went to the RSPCA today at Burwood to pick up a script for the dog and they were also still in lockdown mode, no normal walk in entry, masks and seat spacing in the vet area and only one human allowed in with the vet.
Have another appointment for the Dog next week and was told the same conditions are still applying.....
Its obviously up to each individual business how they wish to proceed but with winter coming and vaccines still rolling out I think some will be more cautious than others and continue some of the same Covid precautionary practices.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 24, 2021, 05:09:48 pm
Science may or may not support it Fly but three medical services, GP, Optometrist and Podiatry we use in our area are all going to persist with mask wearing on their premises for the winter months as well as the 1.5m spacing in waiting rooms.
 Went to the RSPCA today at Burwood to pick up a script for the dog and they were also still in lockdown mode, no normal walk in entry, masks and seat spacing in the vet area and only one human allowed in with the vet.
Have another appointment for the Dog next week and was told the same conditions are still applying.....
Its obviously up to each individual business how they wish to proceed but with winter coming and vaccines still rolling out I think some will be more cautious than others and continue some of the same Covid precautionary practices.

Oh absolutely EB,, and I was always willing to wear one in a supermarket etc for the sake of others.... not trying to tell people what to do individually!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 24, 2021, 05:46:25 pm
Was in the local shopping centre today, wearing a mask, but there were plenty of people walking around barefaced and no one appeared to be that bothered about it!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 24, 2021, 06:15:37 pm
As will ten of thousands of other health and allied health industry workers starting from last week, because now it is available when before it wasn't. ;)

She is getting the astra tomorrow. She asked for the Pfizer but was told it's reserved for doctors. Why?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 24, 2021, 07:05:49 pm
Oh absolutely EB,, and I was always willing to wear one in a supermarket etc for the sake of others.... not trying to tell people what to do individually!
So your cognitive dissonance won't let you accept fundamental, irrefutable principles of epidemiology....

That's all you're really saying. ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Blues15 on March 24, 2021, 07:19:19 pm
She is getting the astra tomorrow. She asked for the Pfizer but was told it's reserved for doctors. Why?

Are they using Pfizer though? I was talking to my doctor about the different vaccines yesterday and he seems to think that it won’t be available for use and almost everyone will receive the astra vaccine. His reasoning behind that was because the Oxford vaccine has been around for a while as they started it when SARS first came out whereas according to him the Pfizer is a bit experimental.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 24, 2021, 10:25:35 pm
.. and sobering numbers to put it mildly

Brazil had 200,000 deaths cumulative up to Dec31st 2020.  In less than three months, it's now close to 300,000!

In March 2000, it was zero !!!! 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 24, 2021, 11:59:36 pm
She is getting the astra tomorrow. She asked for the Pfizer but was told it's reserved for doctors. Why?
Is that true, the "reserved for doctors" comment.

Here is what I was advised just this afternoon, as I'm supposedly in the 1b segment.

If you are yet to have a dose you'll get AstraZeneca.

If you've already had AstraZeneca you'll get a 2nd AstraZeneca.

If you've already had a Pfizer you'll get a 2nd Pfizer.

We won't cross vaccinate as this is yet to be proven or approved.

Pfizer is only available in limited quantities because the EU put the brakes on it's export and we only had a limited quantity already here.

We make AstraZeneca here now, starting this week we have 800,000+ doses available, soon to be making 1 Million per week. The 50 million AstraZeneca we have licensed to make just covers the bulk of the vaccinated population for two shots, and it will take well into next year to get he job done.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 25, 2021, 06:35:45 am
.. and sobering numbers to put it mildly

Brazil had 200,000 deaths cumulative up to Dec31st 2020.  In less than three months, it's now close to 300,000!

In March 2000, it was zero !!!! 



I stated this once before, regarding cases of death being slippery.  Last time I did it was in favour of being careful with respect to how they're reporting covic deaths and to rebutt an argument about dying with covid not from covid.

My father had chronic lymphocytic leukaemia.   We were told that this is the cancer that is best to have, as it has a 95% survival rate beyond 15 years of diagnosis or some such bollocks with a really low death rate.  Anyway, in his treatment plan, just as his numbers were stabilising on the back of chemotherapy, they started prepping for a bone marrow transplant which was supposed to help him later in life.  They gave him a large dose of chemo to prep for this, and unfortunately for him, his liver shutdown about a month after the chemo treatment.  He died two weeks later, as the liver has over 200 metabolic functions. 

On his death certificate, cause of death was listed as hematemisis brought on by liver failure as a result of reactivation of hepatitis c.

Where does he sit in the 95% cause of death by clc?  I bet you he's on the other side (5%) yet he was never previously formally diagnosed with hep c, they estimate he had it in his system from the migration on ship to Australia.  As far as I'm concerned without clc he doesn't die from this cause, but its equally possible they used a dirty needle or a batch of chemo drugs that was unclean and couldn't categorically state why he died.  Ultimately the outcome for us is the same, so we didn't pursue it as it doesnt bring him back either way.

I stated this in covids benefit once, and I state it here to show that if the statistical reporting is as much an exercise of statistical gymnastics as it is truth, and that we might be being fed a lot of crap from around the world.

Even so, I dont state this for anything but truth seeking. 

What I would like to see is how these numbers stack up overlaid with the average death rate for this time in terms of influenza, and average deaths.  We should see a rather dramatic spike in overall deaths on a trend line during a pandemic where a disproportionate number of additional deaths are recorded.

Those stats are not mentioned much, and they are worthy of paying attention to.  It's data without context explainable by the overall drop in human activity during this pandemic but the death rate is not remarkable on average according tot he following link.

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/BRA/brazil/death-rate

I am not posting this for any reason but to encourage more questions, in the hope we gain some clarity.  The pandemic has changed how we move through society remarkably, but the slums of Brazil should not yield much social distancing IMHO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 25, 2021, 06:40:12 am
Regarding which vaccine you get.  At work, I am told it's a lottery.   Go one day you might get Pfizer.  Go another day and you'll get AZ.  where its getting tricky, is that people are rejecting and rebooking to try their luck again.

Now this is also possibly related to the wait time between jabs for protection but I just pass on what I hear.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 25, 2021, 08:01:15 am
Sorry to hear about your father @Thryleon‍, it's never easy and sometimes we just feel powerless.

The vaccine lottery is interesting, I think that is just a kind way of say they don't know what will be delivered. We can't ignore the media and social media impacts of those booking cancellations, even when they just pose a question it's not always asking in innocence!

On the Brazil charts, I notice the charts linked have a big disclaiming stating they do not include the effects of COVID beyond 2020. You would have to be a bit of a statistical wizard to detangle what is one effect from another. I gather the major influence here is the global aging population, which like the rest of the planet will be putting a cap on population. It's a huge problem coming for young children now, my actuary friend tells me in the mid 2100s there will be too many people who all grow old and frail together at the same time, and most of the world won't have the resources or income to look after them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 25, 2021, 08:22:15 am
Echo LPs sentiments @Thryleon ... but I started looking for an explanation behind brazil.

Reckon I found it

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/24/anger-in-brazil-as-bolsonaro-claims-citizens-will-soon-lead-normal-lives-as-deaths-soar-coronavirus
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 25, 2021, 08:36:21 am
Bullcrap!

Science has completely confirmed masks reduce the transmission of droplet born virus by as much as 85%.

It is true that the type of masks the general public wear might not stop aerosol based infection, primarily because the general public do not use disposable masks correctly, but that is a different thing altogether to droplet transmission. However, Dr Cath Noakes has noted controlling air turnover in buildings has a significant influence on reducing aerosol transmission. Aerosol transmission is considered to be very unlikely in open or well ventilated spaces.

Interestingly preliminary indications are this Influenza season will be less prevalent primarily due the wider global use of masks in public spaces.

Quote
Aerosol transmission is considered to be very unlikely in open or well ventilated spaces.

Gee, who would have thought?

Let's see your study. i'll rip it to shreds in seconds.....if it's even on point.

Did you read the Danish RCT study from late last year?

Or you could start here....

https://aapsonline.org/mask-facts/

But entirely typical of your standard blustering response - no supporting reference, just I'm a scientist, I know better than you - end of story..

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 25, 2021, 09:24:48 am
So the immanent reintroduction of international flights into Melb, is that for returned travellers (ie Aussie Citizens) or general holiday makers? If its for the latter, they can get f-ed
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 25, 2021, 09:34:19 am
Is that true, the "reserved for doctors" comment.

I told her she should ask for the Pfizer. She asked and was told by her boss that she would have to go to travel to Dandenong hospital for that and she said she was willing. Then the boss got back to her and said sorry the Pfizer is only for doctors.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on March 25, 2021, 09:48:26 am
I told her she should ask for the Pfizer. She asked and was told by her boss that she would have to go to travel to Dandenong hospital for that and she said she was willing. Then the boss got back to her and said sorry the Pfizer is only for doctors.

Sort of interesting but there’s nothing to substantiate the bosses knowledge/lack of, of anything.
If one of my staff wanted to know what vaccine they were getting I’d say “I’m a tiler, ask me about sticking them down shiny side up”
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 25, 2021, 09:53:43 am
And for all those who hold onto to the rhetoric that Sweden did badly - because of no lock downs, no masks etc.

This might finally get you to quieten down.

See attached.

(And no, it's not Bjorn and Benny cuddling in the nude!)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 25, 2021, 10:05:37 am
But entirely typical of your standard blustering response - no supporting reference, just I'm a scientist, I know better than you - end of story..
Do you actually read what you link, the studies completely support what I posted. You've posted a link and only picked out the bits and pieces you like from the introduction, while the whole article goes on to explain why your general anti-mask argument is completely and unequivocally wrong! ;)
Quote
A properly fitted N95 will block 95% of tiny air particles down to 0.3 μm from reaching the wearer’s face.
Most N95 rated masks (not respirators) even disposable ones filter down to sub-micron level, but they are only effective if you change them regularly which is the problem the public has. People wear the same disposable mask day in day out and once they are damp and contaminated from the moisture in exhalations they aren't as effective.
Quote
Evaluated 44 masks, respirators, and other materials with similar methods and small aerosols (0.08 and 0.22 µm)
N95 FFR filter — >95% efficiency
Medical masks — 55% efficiency
General (cloth) masks — 38% efficiency
Handkerchiefs — 2% (one layer) to 13% (four layers) efficiency.
N95 masks are the best, but not necessarily N95 respirators because they might have pressure relief valves that open during exhalation. General medical masks are almost as effective as an open window. The commercial cloth masks and other types are partially effective for droplets, the homemade single layer types of bandana or gaiter are almost useless.

That scatter gun approach you employ has shot your own argument in the foot, ................ again! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 25, 2021, 10:17:12 am
And for all those who hold onto to the rhetoric that Sweden did badly - because of no lock downs, no masks etc.

This might finally get you to quieten down.
Nobody claimed Sweden did badly, your generalising when people refer to countries like Norway and Denmark as Nordic nations, Sweden haven't followed the path of other Nordic countries at all, and it has quickly adopted a strong COVID-19 policy including vaccination and mask wearing.

Sweden is great example of what happens when you stop listening to the loopy conspiracists and start respect the science.

I can't imagine how you pick out examples that so badly support your argument, surely you aren't so unlucky that this happens by chance?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 25, 2021, 10:24:27 am
Do you actually read what you link, the studies completely support what I posted. You've posted a link and only picked out the bits and pieces you like from the introduction, while the whole article goes on to explain why your general anti-mask argument is completely and unequivocally wrong! ;)Most N95 rated masks (not respirators) even disposable ones filter down to sub-micron level, but they are only effective if you change them regularly which is the problem the public has. People wear the same disposable mask day in day out and once they are damp and contaminated from the moisture in exhalations they aren't as effective.N95 masks are the best, but not necessarily N95 respirators because they might have pressure relief valves that open during exhalation. General medical masks are almost as effective as an open window. The commercial cloth masks and other types are partially effective for droplets, the homemade single layer types of bandana or gaiter are almost useless.

That scatter gun approach you employ has shot your own argument in the foot, ................ again! ;D

You've gone and cherry picked.

You focus on the N95 masks and the like.

How many punters in the street wear N95s.....

Jesus LP, that's poor.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 25, 2021, 10:25:55 am

Nobody claimed Sweden did badly, your generalising when people refer to countries like Norway and Denmark as Nordic nations, Sweden haven't followed the path of other Nordic countries at all, and it has quickly adopted a strong COVID-19 policy including vaccination and mask wearing.

Sweden is great example of what happens when you stop listening to the loopy conspiracists and start respect the science.

I can't imagine how you pick out examples that so badly support your argument, surely you aren't so unlucky that this happens by chance?

I laughed aloud when I read that comment.

Very funny.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 25, 2021, 10:32:58 am
You've gone and cherry picked.

You focus on the N95 masks and the like.
Nope, I listed all the masks and efficacies taken from the article you link. ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 25, 2021, 10:42:10 am
I laughed aloud when I read that comment.

Very funny.
Until you get up to date you'll keep listing Sweden wrongly using outdated data and facts. The Swedish strategy has changed dramatically since the 2nd wave hit. For months now it's required face masks in hospitals, care centres, public transport and public places. It's aggressively adopted a vaccination program. Unfortunately, there is some delay between actions and results due to the way COVID infections develop, but Sweden is now on the right path using masks and getting vaccinated. It never suspended vaccinations like Norway or Denmark, it couldn't afford to.

The main historical problem for Sweden came because they loosened restrictions too soon after the 1st wave and 2nd wave, and paid a huge price. The Swedish politicians basically listened to naysayers like yourself and it bit them on the ar5e!

Now they actually now follow the Melbourne like model, and it's going to serve them very well once they get cases back to manageable limits.

FYI, the latest official finding in Sweden;
Quote
The Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences' independent review of the available evidence validates WHO's recommendations to keep a physical distance, wear a face mask, keep rooms ventilated, avoid crowds, and practise good hand and respiratory hygiene.

However, not until Dec 18, 2020, did the government give directives to start to translate more of these recommendations into practice including the use of face masks, as the trajectory of rapidly rising cases and deaths continues and intensive-care facilities and the health-care professionals are stretched to the limits in many regions in Sweden.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 25, 2021, 01:00:39 pm
Sorry to hear about your father @Thryleon‍, it's never easy and sometimes we just feel powerless.

The vaccine lottery is interesting, I think that is just a kind way of say they don't know what will be delivered. We can't ignore the media and social media impacts of those booking cancellations, even when they just pose a question it's not always asking in innocence!

On the Brazil charts, I notice the charts linked have a big disclaiming stating they do not include the effects of COVID beyond 2020. You would have to be a bit of a statistical wizard to detangle what is one effect from another. I gather the major influence here is the global aging population, which like the rest of the planet will be putting a cap on population. It's a huge problem coming for young children now, my actuary friend tells me in the mid 2100s there will be too many people who all grow old and frail together at the same time, and most of the world won't have the resources or income to look after them.
I noted that to, but here is where it gets really slippery.

1.  That chart wasnt posted to dispell anything.  Its step one in figuring out the real data (I dont have the time, effort or energy at the minute).  This chart has the information that should normally be the case.

2.  Then add the number of covid deaths reported, and you might end up with a statistical answer to how many additional deaths we should be seeing.

3.  I dont really know what to think, but there are rubbery figures around brazil officially regarding both cases and deaths because they reportedly are not able to accurately capture figures in the slums anyway.

It is all a bit too convenient with respect to getting the official numbers.

Numbers without context though are just numbers.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 25, 2021, 02:34:58 pm
It is all a bit too convenient with respect to getting the official numbers.

Numbers without context though are just numbers.
Yes, there is a lot of politics in all this, wasn't Brazil one of the locations where the political leadership initially denied COVID was a pandemic, and even when the cases started to pile up they proposed weird untenable measures for a 3rd world location like HCQ, which was allegedly related to corruption regarding the purchase of HCQ.

Even the data from Europe is unreliable, some of the more extreme countries are apparently withholding a lot of data based on privacy concerns, even though they all basically comply to the EU systems.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 25, 2021, 02:47:38 pm
That was in my link @LP ... Bolsonaro.  Overthrow assured
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 25, 2021, 02:50:18 pm
That was in my link @LP ... Bolsonaro.  Overthrow assured
I suppose he'll be "Driven Into Exile" with only his $Billions to soften the blow! ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 25, 2021, 06:33:36 pm
Until you get up to date you'll keep listing Sweden wrongly using outdated data and facts. The Swedish strategy has changed dramatically since the 2nd wave hit. For months now it's required face masks in hospitals, care centres, public transport and public places. It's aggressively adopted a vaccination program. Unfortunately, there is some delay between actions and results due to the way COVID infections develop, but Sweden is now on the right path using masks and getting vaccinated. It never suspended vaccinations like Norway or Denmark, it couldn't afford to.

The main historical problem for Sweden came because they loosened restrictions too soon after the 1st wave and 2nd wave, and paid a huge price. The Swedish politicians basically listened to naysayers like yourself and it bit them on the ar5e!

Now they actually now follow the Melbourne like model, and it's going to serve them very well once they get cases back to manageable limits.

FYI, the latest official finding in Sweden;

75% of deaths in Sweden were in the homes....

Until you get up to date you'll keep listing Sweden wrongly using outdated data and facts. The Swedish strategy has changed dramatically since the 2nd wave hit. For months now it's required face masks in hospitals, care centres, public transport and public places. It's aggressively adopted a vaccination program. Unfortunately, there is some delay between actions and results due to the way COVID infections develop, but Sweden is now on the right path using masks and getting vaccinated. It never suspended vaccinations like Norway or Denmark, it couldn't afford to.

The main historical problem for Sweden came because they loosened restrictions too soon after the 1st wave and 2nd wave, and paid a huge price. The Swedish politicians basically listened to naysayers like yourself and it bit them on the ar5e!

Now they actually now follow the Melbourne like model, and it's going to serve them very well once they get cases back to manageable limits.

FYI, the latest official finding in Sweden;

About to head off to the game. Will do Sweden later.

LP, you are the font of all knowledge - show me a paper - anything really - where SARS COV2 and COVID have met Koch's Postulates.....

I won't hold my breath.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 25, 2021, 06:47:03 pm
This is how insidious the media are.

After days and days of whipping the public into an anti-AstraZeneca frenzy, this is a typical headline they run today.
The commercial media have zero morals and are unprofessional, it's all about profit, even if it comes at the expense of your mental and physical health!

Why aren't they liable, were are the civil cases and class actions against them?


If people were spooked, it would be a lot easier to get an appointment for a jab.  Clinics are overwhelmed with folk trying make appointments and there are none available on the Bellarine or Geelong for at least a fortnight.  Hopefully, the high volume vaccination centre at the old Ford Factory will be up and running soon.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 25, 2021, 11:35:27 pm
75% of deaths in Sweden were in the homes....
It's the general public the spread the disease, and the frail, susceptible and elderly that die first from it, like those in Sweden's care homes after the Swedish politicians prematurely relaxed restrictions. But Sweden learned from that huge huge error and are now doing the exact opposite of what you demand, they are the EU's new boosters for the use of masks, vaccines and social distancing. ;)

Nobody cares about Koch's Postulate or any other 18th or 19th century science, other than to learn from the history, science which has long since been superseded. References to it are just throw away labels used by those who desire of a smokescreen to mask their lack of knowledge around the real issues. You might as well quote Niels Bohr or Nietzsche.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 26, 2021, 01:24:16 am
It's the general public the spread the disease, and the frail, susceptible and elderly that die first from it, like those in Sweden's care homes after the Swedish politicians prematurely relaxed restrictions. But Sweden learned from that huge huge error and are now doing the exact opposite of what you demand, they are the EU's new boosters for the use of masks, vaccines and social distancing. ;)

Nobody cares about Koch's Postulate or any other 18th or 19th century science, other than to learn from the history, science which has long since been superseded. References to it are just throw away labels used by those who desire of a smokescreen to mask their lack of knowledge around the real issues. You might as well quote Niels Bohr or Nietzsche.

Same rhetoric, zero substance...

Great stuff LP.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 26, 2021, 01:25:02 am
If people were spooked, it would be a lot easier to get an appointment for a jab.  Clinics are overwhelmed with folk trying make appointments and there are none available on the Bellarine or Geelong for at least a fortnight.  Hopefully, the high volume vaccination centre at the old Ford Factory will be up and running soon.

good luck....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 26, 2021, 08:10:52 am
Same rhetoric, zero substance...

Great stuff LP.
I'm afraid your post history exposes significant contradictions.

You've regularly questioned the validity of COVID by offering irrelevant references to things like Koch's Postulate, but historically in the very same forum you've consumed pages and pages arguing for the use of HCQ or Ivermectin. Those posts expose that you think the pandemic is caused by a virus because you argue for use of an anti-viral, even if they are ineffective against Sars-Cov-2.

 I dare say someone could analyse this site for positive terms around HCQ or Ivermectin and Flyboy77 would be a standout #1!

I'm a bit surprised a lawyer like yourself didn't see this contradiction before they posted so much!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 31, 2021, 09:40:04 am
https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/merkel-holds-crisis-meeting-as-some-regions-halt-astrazeneca-for-under-60s-20210331-p57ffo.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 31, 2021, 09:42:10 am
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tees-56570168
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 31, 2021, 10:18:03 am
https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/merkel-holds-crisis-meeting-as-some-regions-halt-astrazeneca-for-under-60s-20210331-p57ffo.html
I don't understand, well maybe I do, that there can be a halt in some specific regions despite there being no official reports lodged.

It feels politically driven.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 31, 2021, 10:19:07 am
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tees-56570168
I suspect this is Novavax putting the mechanisms in place to get around any potential EU export bans. They are putting a supply chain structure in place that won't be easily regulated without massively disrupting normal trade.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 31, 2021, 10:23:38 am
By the way my mother in law got the jab last Thursday and has had no side effects.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 31, 2021, 10:32:07 am
By the way my mother in law got the jab last Thursday and has had no side effects.
That's good, but the fear when you have no side-effects at all is that it hasn't worked properly.

It takes about 14 to 21 days to develop a Memory T-Cell immune response, the long term benefit, tell her to stay cautious until then.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 31, 2021, 10:53:48 am
A close friend of mine gets her first AZ jab today. I'm a bit toey about it but she's very confident it will be OK.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 31, 2021, 11:33:47 am
A close friend of mine gets her first AZ jab today. I'm a bit toey about it but she's very confident it will be OK.
@cookie2

Let's hope so, the probability is high she'll have no major problems.

The large amount of cynical and sceptical commentary is out of proportion to the risk and so it makes society paranoid. It's fair to be sceptical, but in proportion to the risk and based on facts not fictions or opinions. Apparently, just the fear caused by this social media commentary has a real world effect as it can increase events like syncope due to heightened stress levels. Blood chemistry can change in anticipation.

Studies conducted into laboratory mouse / rodent handling techniques years and years ago, which found how the technicians picked the animals up had a real world effect on stress levels and so altered the results of many studies.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: sandsmere on March 31, 2021, 11:46:07 am
I get the first jab next Wednesday.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 31, 2021, 02:18:57 pm
Germany have suspended AstraZ again for under 60s and Spain have dropped it for 80 plus patients giving them Pfizer and Moderna instead.
Think the Germans had 31 cases of rare blood clots in a couple of cities.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 31, 2021, 02:28:39 pm
Why are there no reports of significant adverse side effects with the Pfizer vaccine ? Surely, someone somewhere must have become ill, died etc. It's all very one sided IMO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 31, 2021, 02:50:22 pm
Why are there no reports of significant adverse side effects with the Pfizer vaccine ? Surely, someone somewhere must have become ill, died etc. It's all very one sided IMO.
Pfizer No of Employees 88,300 Total Equity US65.5B
AstraZenaca No of Employees 76,100 Total Equity US15.6B
probably thats why
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on March 31, 2021, 02:54:24 pm
Pfizer No of Employees 88,300 Total Equity US65.5B
AstraZenaca No of Employees 76,100 Total Equity US15.6B
probably thats why

Yes, I kind of suspected something like that. Pfizer has form for dodgy behaviour. I'm not saying that their vaccine is or isn't better, but the only negative things I can find is that after you get the second shot, you may experience headaches or some such. Surely there's more to it than that ? All vaccines can have bad side effects in certain people.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on March 31, 2021, 02:59:17 pm
Yes, I kind of suspected something like that. Pfizer has form for dodgy behaviour. I'm not saying that their vaccine is or isn't better, but the only negative things I can find is that after you get the second shot, you may experience headaches or some such. Surely there's more to it than that ? All vaccines can have bad side effects in certain people.


They ALL have form for seriously dodgy behaviour.

Sadly, mega fines for these guys are simply another cost of doing business.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_pharmaceutical_settlements

And that's the tip of the icerberg given most oversight agencies are inevitably run by ex insiders....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 31, 2021, 03:16:49 pm
Also, the EU is involved in a major blue with the UK and AZ over supplies and part of this seems to be trying to make things difficult for AZ by casting doubts.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 31, 2021, 04:08:48 pm
Why are there no reports of significant adverse side effects with the Pfizer vaccine ? Surely, someone somewhere must have become ill, died etc. It's all very one sided IMO.
EU vs The Rest? :o

It's not really nation wide health authorities doing this, it's more region by region with national politicians blinking. Germany officially it's a couple of districts out of the whole country that's postponed. I would be interested to see how many each entity employs in those regions.

The young women thing is interesting though, there were early reports young women might be at specific risk to COVID-19 if they have some condition related to MS. So I can't help but wonder if there is a coincidence, but as far as I know those concerns were dismissed. As an aside apparently a dose of Influenza is a known trigger of MS, another good reason for girls to get Influenza vaccines!

The mRNA vs Adenovirus vaccine solution is likely irrelevant, because fundamentally if the side-effects are real the J&J vaccine should be identical to AstraZeneca, but you have to always consider genetics as a factor in region to region.

AstraZeneca is doing this at cost, the others not so much!

But I have to say for me the real worry is that AstraZeneca again late today, so overnight Germany time, reports no official reports from the the German health department. That seems odd if you suspend a vaccine citing 31 severe incidents of unexpected side-effects!

btw., The media are being a bit tricky, the 31 cases are not confirmed to be blood clots, the media is using associative wording by reporting 31 cases of side-effects then discussing previous claims of blood clots in separate cases, which the initial reports dismiss in the closing paragraph if you read that far.  So a reader builds that link, and even some secondary reporting has cited blood clots. The official reports as yet give no description of the cases / side-effects.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 31, 2021, 04:53:09 pm
Why are there no reports of significant adverse side effects with the Pfizer vaccine ? Surely, someone somewhere must have become ill, died etc. It's all very one sided IMO.

Tommy Hearne posted that the jab put Marvin Hagler in hospital and then retracted it after he died.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 31, 2021, 04:53:19 pm
Hearns
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 31, 2021, 05:17:15 pm
EU vs The Rest? :o

It's not really nation wide health authorities doing this, it's more region by region with national politicians blinking. Germany officially it's a couple of districts out of the whole country that's postponed. I would be interested to see how many each entity employs in those regions.

The young women thing is interesting though, there were early reports young women might be at specific risk to COVID-19 if they have some condition related to MS. So I can't help but wonder if there is a coincidence, but as far as I know those concerns were dismissed. As an aside apparently a dose of Influenza is a known trigger of MS, another good reason for girls to get Influenza vaccines!

The mRNA vs Adenovirus vaccine solution is likely irrelevant, because fundamentally if the side-effects are real the J&J vaccine should be identical to AstraZeneca, but you have to always consider genetics as a factor in region to region.

AstraZeneca is doing this at cost, the others not so much!

But I have to say for me the real worry is that AstraZeneca again late today, so overnight Germany time, reports no official reports from the the German health department. That seems odd if you suspend a vaccine citing 31 severe incidents of unexpected side-effects!

btw., The media are being a bit tricky, the 31 cases are not confirmed to be blood clots, the media is using associative wording by reporting 31 cases of side-effects then discussing previous claims of blood clots in separate cases, which the initial reports dismiss in the closing paragraph if you read that far.  So a reader builds that link, and even some secondary reporting has cited blood clots. The official reports as yet give no description of the cases / side-effects.
I thought they were a rare form of blood clot to do with the sinus passages?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on April 01, 2021, 01:02:24 am
good luck....

It's not matter of luck - and I won't be eligible for a jab for quite a while - it's simply a matter of the Federal Government pulling its finger out.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on April 01, 2021, 01:20:32 am
LP, you are the font of all knowledge - show me a paper - anything really - where SARS COV2 and COVID have met Koch's Postulates.....

I won't hold my breath.

I hope you're not holding your breath Fly; Koch's postulates were developed specifically for diseases caused by bacteria and well before viruses were known to exist.  Koch's postulates don't apply to all diseases caused by bacteria and the concept has been considered obsolete by epidemiologists since the 1950s.

Why fart around with archaic, inapplicable concepts when the science is right before your eyes?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on April 01, 2021, 07:22:38 am
I hope you're not holding your breath Fly; Koch's postulates were developed specifically for diseases caused by bacteria and well before viruses were known to exist.  Koch's postulates don't apply to all diseases caused by bacteria and the concept has been considered obsolete by epidemiologists since the 1950s.

Why fart around with archaic, inapplicable concepts when the science is right before your eyes?



Really David? That's your best? (deja vous)

You're running with "archaic and inapplicable"? Piss poor.

Look up Thomas Rivers and get back to me.

Here, I'll even give you a few hints.

https://www.thelastamericanvagabond.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Koch%E2%80%99s-Postulates-Dr.-Kaufman-5-4.pdf
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 01, 2021, 08:06:53 am
I hope you're not holding your breath Fly; Koch's postulates were developed specifically for diseases caused by bacteria and well before viruses were known to exist.  Koch's postulates don't apply to all diseases caused by bacteria and the concept has been considered obsolete by epidemiologists since the 1950s.

Why fart around with archaic, inapplicable concepts when the science is right before your eyes?
It's just an irrelevant distraction used by detractors of COVID-19 and vaccination, to ease their way through the day as indisputable facts hit them in the face minute after minute by the millions(almost 600 milllion vaccinations to date) to confirm both the reality of the pandemic and the terrific safety and efficacy of vaccination! ;D

What Flyboy77 asks is analogous to a Nazi asking you to prove the Jews died in gas chambers, that they weren't just cremated after a natural death, or the tactics of the tobacco companies claiming in court there is no proof smoking kills! It's such an old school misdirection tactic, these days primary school kids get taught to identify it in social media! It must be outright offensive to someone like Baggers who has just lost a lifelong close friend to the disease, yet Flyboy77's deep want for a conspiracy drives his commentary harder than any empathy for fellow human can overcome.

And of course there is no logic, we can probably bother with this debate further when Flyboy77 explains why he's telling us to make use anti-virals instead of vaccines one minute, then proclaiming COVID-19 is a fiction born of conspiracy the next! A contradiction in his commentary I'm sure he recognises, but chooses to wave across his head in a classic comedy moment!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on April 01, 2021, 08:30:32 am
Well, my good friend has so far survived her first AZ jab! 😎
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on April 01, 2021, 01:53:37 pm
Getting mine now, later today.......
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on April 01, 2021, 05:01:10 pm
Really David? That's your best? (deja vous)

You're running with "archaic and inapplicable"? Piss poor.

Look up Thomas Rivers and get back to me.

Here, I'll even give you a few hints.

https://www.thelastamericanvagabond.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Koch%E2%80%99s-Postulates-Dr.-Kaufman-5-4.pdf

You don't get off that easy Flyboy  :)

Tell me why you think a 19th century scientific construct (that didn't really work anyway) should apply to 21st century virology?

Quoting Kaufman doesn't cut it.  Anyone who thinks appendicitis can be cured with an enema is a danger to himself and the world at large.  I know some people put a lot of faith in naturopaths but, to me, they are just another quack.  Furthermore, Kaufman is promoted by Pete Evans - You don't happen to have a Biocharger NG that I could borrow if I can't get a vaccination? 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on April 01, 2021, 05:04:59 pm
Getting mine now, later today.......

Had it an hour or so ago. Feeling ok so far.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 01, 2021, 05:13:52 pm
Had it an hour or so ago. Feeling ok so far.
Cookie, Any positive side effects like hair growth on the bonce, if there is I might order a double shot..?😃

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 01, 2021, 05:58:16 pm
Had it an hour or so ago. Feeling ok so far.

The second day following is supposedly the worst.  That is if you feel anything at all.  Good health mate :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on April 01, 2021, 06:19:40 pm
Cookie, Any positive side effects like hair growth on the bonce, if there is I might order a double shot..?😃

Not so far but ever hopeful.......😷
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 02, 2021, 12:23:00 am
Word on the street is take panadol when you get your jab.

Helps alleviate symptoms.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on April 02, 2021, 02:43:00 pm
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/coronavirus/covid19-australian-man-has-blood-clot-condition-after-astrazeneca-vaccine/news-story/1462d9c67cb20424a7f808ae6d6f2bde

A man has been admitted to a Melbourne hospital with a rare blood clotting condition following the AstraZeneca vaccine.

The Australian reports Australia’s chief health officers are urgently reviewing the case after he got the AstraZeneca vaccine on March 22, presented to hospital suffering fever and abdominal pain and was found to have abdominal clots with a very low platelet count.

The symptoms are similar to those seen by German scientists in patients following administration of the AstraZeneca vaccine overseas.

The condition forced Canada to suspend use of the AstraZeneca vaccine in people aged under 55.

The European Medicines Agency is investigating any links between the condition and the AstraZeneca vaccine.

The Australian Health Protection Principal Committee reportedly met today and is discussing the Melbourne case, with deputy chief health officer Michael Kidd.

An update is expected this afternoon.

The AstraZeneca vaccine is currently being produced by CSL in Melbourne.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on April 02, 2021, 04:22:56 pm
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-02/man-who-received-astrazeneca-coronavirus-vaccine-has-blood-clots/100046540

Quote
The man was vaccinated on or around March 22 and was recently admitted to Box Hill Hospital in Melbourne with serious thrombosis and a low platelet count.

It is not clear whether the man's clots are related to the vaccine dose he received. About 30,000 Australians develop thrombosis every year.

"He had low platelets, but he had clots in his liver, in his spleen and in his gut in general," Coronacast host Dr Norman Swan told ABC News.

"So, he fits the description of vaccine-induced pro-thrombotic thrombocytopenia. He fits the case description."

Australian Medical Association vice-president Chris Moy told the ABC European authorities had been investigating whether there was a link between the AstraZeneca vaccine and blood clots.

"What they found was there was definitely no overall risk of clotting throughout the community that was given the vaccine," he said.

"And that the risk was so low, the benefits of the vaccine would far outweigh any potential risk.

But they were still looking at this little group where you have this very rare occurrence.

The rate was somewhere in the order of one in maybe several hundred thousand to one in a million or so [actually between 1 in 125,000 and 1 in 1,000,000 according to Science Table COVID-19 Advisory for Ontario].

Because of the low numbers, there's a lot of work to try to work out whether this is a real association or purely chance.

"I know right throughout the world everyone is looking at this very carefully."

The Science Table COVID-19 Advisory for Ontario is worth reading:

https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/sciencebrief/vaccine-induced-prothrombotic-immune-thrombocytopenia-vipit-following-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccination/

Basically they say that you have a 1 in 100 chance of ending up in intensive care if you get COVID-19 and, compared with a 1 in 125,000 (and probably much lower) chance of developing PTT (if there is a causal link), you're better off having the vaccine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 02, 2021, 04:48:34 pm
Word on the street is take panadol when you get your jab.

Helps alleviate symptoms.
I suppose if you were paranoid or worried about clots, and you are not already on it, then low dose aspirin might be a go as well!

Personally, I'd be far more worried about clots from catching the full disease, but even so it pays to be vigilant!

I wonder if some of these cases have other complications, like they are taking NSAIDs which are notorious for introducing complications in lots of different medicines, including clots or bleeds. The clustered reports almost always seem to disappear on investigation, that indicates other mitigating circumstances. People think because something is over the counter, it's safe, so they don't even mention they taken it to  a doctor.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on April 02, 2021, 05:41:29 pm
Already on blood thinners so hopefully ok!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 02, 2021, 05:56:48 pm
Already on blood thinners so hopefully ok!
 Even more important then to have the vaccine, as it seems COVID risk is higher for people like you and me! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 02, 2021, 06:23:34 pm
Canada have canned the AstraZ for Under 55's. I believe in Aus if you are a cardiac patient or on certain meds you can ask for the Pfizer instead of the AstraZ but not sure if it has to be through a specialist or your GP clinic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 02, 2021, 07:45:14 pm
Even more important then to have the vaccine, as it seems COVID risk is higher for people like you and me! ;)

Maybe not?

https://strokefoundation.org.au/News/2021/02/11/06/28/Information-for-the-stroke-community-about-COVID19-vaccination
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on April 03, 2021, 10:56:35 am
The Indians are doing pretty darn well with this....

But heck, too much egg on people's faces, let alone criminal negligence claims, if the powers that be in western nations were to roll over and say heck, we had a fix all along.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 03, 2021, 08:26:42 pm
The Indians are doing pretty darn well with this....

But heck, too much egg on people's faces, let alone criminal negligence claims, if the powers that be in western nations were to roll over and say heck, we had a fix all along.....

Can you qualify what doing pretty well means??
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on April 03, 2021, 08:35:03 pm
Can you qualify what doing pretty well means??

I'll quantify it.

118 deaths per million. Pick a country of any significance, India's done way better.

#120 in the 'rankings'.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

All that in a poor country with many extremely high density populations.

And that's before the classification of deaths fudge that seems prevalent globally.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 03, 2021, 08:46:19 pm
I'll quantify it.

118 deaths per million. Pick a country of any significance, India's done way better.

#120 in the 'rankings'.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

All that in a poor country with many extremely high density populations.

And that's before the classification of deaths fudge that seems prevalent globally.....
China even better at 3 deaths per million, well done China lol.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on April 03, 2021, 09:01:03 pm
China even better at 3 deaths per million, well done China lol.

Indeed.

One might even suppose the 'cure' was known before the release?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 03, 2021, 09:12:10 pm
I'll quantify it.

118 deaths per million. Pick a country of any significance, India's done way better.

Though their numbers are on the increase, India's death rate has really plummeted from their highest spikes during the last few months of 2020.  Early 2021, they were right down.  Now however, they're creeping up.  I said a week back that I do this research every single damned day.  There is hardly any such thing as a common trend amongst any of them, especially geographically.  Multitude of reasons for that.  Political (look at the effin' basketcase that is Brazil) lockdowns, rollout of vaccines, populations, compliance, transport, health regimes.

If we were landlocked, we'd be in all sorts.  It'll keep our academics busy for a decade

EDIT - for "their there and they're" blues
 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 03, 2021, 09:15:34 pm
Though their numbers are on the increase, India's death rate has really plummeted from their highest spikes during the last few months of 2020.  Early 2021, they were right down.  Now however, they're creeping up.  I said a week back that I do this research every single damned day.  They're is hardly any such thing as a common trend amongst any of them, especially geographically.  Multitude of reasons for that.  Political (look at the effin' basketcase that is Brazil) lockdowns, rollout of vaccines, populations, compliance, transport, health regimes.

If we were landlocked, we'd be in all sorts.  It'll keep our "academics" busy for a decade ... if they're not too busy with their other pastimes of course
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 03, 2021, 09:18:07 pm
I'll quantify it.

118 deaths per million. Pick a country of any significance, India's done way better.

#120 in the 'rankings'.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

All that in a poor country with many extremely high density populations.

And that's before the classification of deaths fudge that seems prevalent globally.....
India don't have COVID deniers and conspiracists dominating debate like many struggling countries. Despite some mixed messages, the Indian Gov has been ultra-proactive.

It was ultra-proactive because they knew they can't treat a billion people quickly, luckily the population is not highly mobile, they embarked on a nation wide house to house training and testing regime, more tests than any other country, They adopted an early scheme to make use of masks and trained the public and people how to use them correctly, they have massive fines by their standards for people caught in public without a mask and they actually apply them. They taught the general public how to sterilise surfaces and clothing using alcohol, and also taught them how to sterilise reusable masks.

They did all this early last year knowing a vaccine was month and months away, it helped them slow the spread, but they need vaccine urgently now and they know it, because the measures they've taken won't hold and they know that as well.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on April 03, 2021, 09:20:22 pm
India don't have COVID deniers like many struggling countries.

It was ultra-proactive because they knew they can't treat a billion people quickly, luckily the population is not highly mobile, they embarked on a nation wide house to house training and testing regime, more tests than any other country, They adopted an early scheme to make use of masks and trained the public and people how to use them correctly, they have massive fines by their standards for people caught in public without a mask.

They did all early last year knowing a vaccine was month and months away, but they need it urgently, because the measures they taken won't hold and they know that.

Are you serious?

I'm still laughing.

Guess you know sfa about India....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 03, 2021, 09:29:42 pm
Are you serious?

I'm still laughing.

Guess you know sfa about India....
More than you it seems! ;)

@capcom is correct, they are now experiencing a rise in numbers, Flyboy77 must have missed that using old social media posts again! ::) Glad to see Flyboy77 is back on the COVID is a virus message again, promoting anti-virals, good sign just one or two more steps and he'll arrive at a vaccine! Of course India has it's own sites making Oxford-AstraZeneca, but it can't service it's own market fast enough, it needs help.

One big problem for India is that it bet on the Russian's and they fallen short again it seems, Sputnik V has been denied a second time due to failing efficacy, that is current news.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 03, 2021, 11:48:12 pm
More than you it seems! ;)

@capcom is correct, they are now experiencing a rise in numbers, Flyboy77 must have missed that using old social media posts again! ::) Glad to see Flyboy77 is back on the COVID is a virus message again, promoting anti-virals, good sign just one or two more steps and he'll arrive at a vaccine! Of course India has it's own sites making Oxford-AstraZeneca, but it can't service it's own market fast enough, it needs help.

One big problem for India is that it bet on the Russian's and they fallen short again it seems, Sputnik V has been denied a second time due to failing efficacy, that is current news.
Russia want tourists back and are offering to hit them up cheap in Russia when you arrive with Sputnik V to get them back.....50% Vodka and 50% Krambambulia..😉
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on April 04, 2021, 12:00:07 am
India:  10M fully vaccinated and 73M doses administered so, yes, they're doing OK.

Their fatalities per million is quite low at 118 (Sweden's is 1,3K).  However, India has a very young demographic and it is argued that their CFR (1.7 late last year) should be considerably lower.  (see https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19452829.2020.1863026).

Then there's the fact that India's CFR has been around 3.0 for much of the pandemic and it is widely believed that both infections and deaths are grossly under-reported.  That said, their “early identification and clinical management of cases” has been very effective and they don't use Hydroxychloroquine or the BioCharger NG  :)  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 04, 2021, 07:00:50 am
I'll quantify it.

118 deaths per million. Pick a country of any significance, India's done way better.

#120 in the 'rankings'.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

All that in a poor country with many extremely high density populations.

And that's before the classification of deaths fudge that seems prevalent globally.....

Kudos to them.

Is it possible that they're numbers aren't accurate?

Does their climate make a difference?

The irony is not lost on me that our most densely populated city and arguably coolest climate combination has seen the highest number of cases. 

Im happy to go through the route of zinc and any other prophylactic that works.

Where this argument falls over for me on both arguments for and against is that it seems to be a. Zero sum game when India are doing what you say they are and yet they're also vaccinating.

For anyone who wants to argue any point against this post, consider the following.  If the vaccines don't work what else do we have??
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 04, 2021, 07:06:42 am
Is it possible that they're numbers aren't accurate?
I would suggest that like China, their numbers are total BS and anyone who believes them also believes in the Easter Bunny.
By the way Happy Easter to all those who celebrate it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 04, 2021, 09:06:21 am
I would suggest that like China, their numbers are total BS and anyone who believes them also believes in the Easter Bunny.
By the way Happy Easter to all those who celebrate it.
The less mobile the populations the slower the spread, this has been confirmed in Africa by even more virulent diseases than COVID, it's the jet setting types like the USA and Europe that have the biggest short-term problems with an early rapid rise.

India, Africa, parts of Sth America and maybe even Indonesia will be a slow rise, but they won't be immune. However, countries like Indonesia already have a strong mask use ethic, they've been doing it for decades just because of the pollution.

The slow burn in the low mobility regions is a big part of the case to argue for wealthy nations to donate vaccine to poorer nations, because the waves might not have even hit yet. If they are not assisted they might bring down the global effort 12 or 18 months from now!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 04, 2021, 11:08:53 am
The less mobile the populations the slower the spread, this has been confirmed in Africa by even more virulent diseases than COVID, it's the jet setting types like the USA and Europe that have the biggest short-term problems with an early rapid rise.

India, Africa, parts of Sth America and maybe even Indonesia will be a slow rise, but they won't be immune. However, countries like Indonesia already have a strong mask use ethic, they've been doing it for decades just because of the pollution.

The slow burn in the low mobility regions is a big part of the case to argue for wealthy nations to donate vaccine to poorer nations, because the waves might not have even hit yet. If they are not assisted they might bring down the global effort 12 or 18 months from now!
Mate, come on.
India 1.4B people and 160K deaths? I wouldn't believe that if Jesus Christ came down and provided written evidence. Bodies floating down the Ganges at the best times, turn it up.
As for China with their 93K cases and 4600 deaths out of 1.44B people, I just piss myself laughing, they think we are DH's.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 04, 2021, 11:21:31 am
Mate, come on.
India 1.4B people and 160K deaths? I wouldn't believe that if Jesus Christ came down and provided written evidence. Bodies floating down the Ganges at the best times, turn it up.
As for China with their 93K cases and 4600 deaths out of 1.44B people, I just piss myself laughing, they think we are DH's.
We have no control over various regions regarding how they classify and report deaths, in just the same way that there is no universal power plug.

Some regions might record someone who is hospitalised with severe COVID and dies from cardiac issues as heart failure, while another region might classify a terminal cancer patient who dies with mild COVID as a COVID death, just accept it is what it is!

Just like some claim it is fate, some it's God's will, while others tell you it's a conspiracy!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 04, 2021, 12:07:37 pm
We have no control over various regions regarding how they classify and report deaths, in just the same way that there is no universal power plug.

Some regions might record someone who is hospitalised with severe COVID and dies from cardiac issues as heart failure, while another region might classify a terminal cancer patient who dies with mild COVID as a COVID death, just accept it is what it is!

Just like some claim it is fate, some it's God's will, while others tell you it's a conspiracy!
Be lucky if they record anything in some areas, a lot of the people wouldn't even be recorded as born.The Sikhs in the Punjab would be organised and parts of Mumbai where its wealthy and perhaps down in Goa, and the arombol tourist areas where its like little Russia but the rest of the country is a mess clouded in politics and poverty.
They are using their own vaccine which also was very rushed and even their own medical gurus have doubts on its effectiveness.
They are also producing the AstraZ and are responsible for about half the world's vaccines being made overall. Their test and trace system for covid cases is also next to useless which is hardly surprising so I'm not sure how they could accurately maintain a vaccine database etc.. and yep I have seen India up close and I have no interest in revisiting.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on April 05, 2021, 10:46:59 pm
The wheels seem to have fallen off India's COVID-19 program; new infections have shot up to over 100K per day.  That is going to put a huge strain on an already inadequate health system.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 06, 2021, 07:58:33 am
Well here is a coincidence of major proportions.

I've know a work associate who's refused to get tested for COVID despite showing some symptoms, further he wouldn't isolate and kept coming to work claiming it was just a cold, this was 3 or 4 months back. Now today we hear he's off to a specialist, guess why?

It seems he's been feeling poorly and after blood tests they discovered he has a low platelet count and possibly a blockage in some leg capillaries. He hasn't yet had the vaccine! I bet if he gets the vaccine he tells everyone it's to blame!

What I don't get is that they haven't tested him for COVID anti-bodies, or at least if they have he isn't telling anybody which wouldn't be a surprise, and the COVID App is not notifying anyone in his vicinity.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on April 06, 2021, 02:55:09 pm
The Brazil variant P1 is a worry. Apparently, it has gained a foothold in Canada and we have to hope it doesn’t hop on a plane to Oz. Apparenly, it’s on the loose in the Whistler alpine resort and that is a favourite of some Australians. IIRC, some rich arseholes caused outrage in the early days of Covid when they flew back from a US ski resort and ignored warnings to isolate, spreading it at various social gatherings.

Seems P1 is twice as transmissible and is much likelier to infect young people and make them seriously ill. We’ve staved off Covid and that gave us the time to immunise the population but Scotty from Marketing has blown that opportunity :-X
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 06, 2021, 03:09:42 pm
The Brazil variant P1 is a worry. Apparently, it has gained a foothold in Canada and we have to hope it doesn’t hop on a plane to Oz. Apparenly, it’s on the loose in the Whistler alpine resort and that is a favourite of some Australians. IIRC, some rich arseholes caused outrage in the early days of Covid when they flew back from a US ski resort and ignored warnings to isolate, spreading it at various social gatherings.

Seems P1 is twice as transmissible and is much likelier to infect young people and make them seriously ill. We’ve staved off Covid and that gave us the time to immunise the population but Scotty from Marketing has blown that opportunity :-X
Yes, the infamous Portsea/Sorrento cafe troupé!

Was it in fact Whistler they returned from or Aspen, I recall them being labelled the Aspen Spreaders? iirc They came back and said it's nothing more than a cold, then the media reported they had their own Private ICU setup at home, as you do for a cold. But went down the road for a latte and muffin anyway! ::)

btw., I agree, the new variants prevalence to infect U30s at twice the going rate is the most worrying aspect. That puts it in the Secondary School range, and as it stands we are months and months away from getting vaccines into that population, including the staff.

Scotty has turned into a marketing dud!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on April 06, 2021, 04:19:23 pm
They returned from Aspen which is in the US. Didn’t one of them go to an 18th b/day party as well?

Whistler is near Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. I heard/read a commentator say it’s popular with Aussies. Unfortunately, the Vancouver Canucks, the NHL team, is assuming most of the team has been infected with the P1 variant given how quickly it has gone thru the team.

Covid 19: 5 Things to Know about the P1 Variant Spreading in B.C. (https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/covid-19-five-things-to-know-about-the-brazilian-p-1-variant-spreading-in-b-c), Vancouver Sun.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on April 07, 2021, 07:34:36 am
https://www.9news.com.au/national/european-agency-confirms-astrazeneca-coronavirus-vaccine-blood-clot-link/adc34eaf-0f14-463e-8e28-d4191273b4a5

A top official at the European Medicines Agency (EMA) said there is a causal link between AstraZeneca's coronavirus vaccine and rare blood clots.
However it remains unclear what the connection is and whether the benefits of taking the shot still outweigh the risks of getting COVID-19.
Marco Cavaleri, head of health threats and vaccine strategy at the Amsterdam-based agency, told Rome's Il Messaggero newspaper on Tuesday there's a clear association between the AstraZeneca vaccine and the dozens of rare blood clots reported worldwide amid the tens of millions of AstraZeneca shots that have been given out.
“It is becoming more and more difficult to affirm that there isn’t a cause-and-effect relationship between AstraZeneca vaccines and the very rare cases of blood clots associated with a low level of platelets,” Mr Cavaleri said.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on April 07, 2021, 08:33:47 am
Interesting. We’ll have to watch this space.

The person who wrote the article needs to work on terminology. The scientists steered clear of saying there is a causal link, Cavaleri carefully parsing his words by saying it’s “becoming more and more difficult to affirm that there isn’t a cause-and-effect relationship”. But the scribe “filled in the gaps “ by asserting a “link”, “causal link” and “connection”. The trick is to rely on direct quotes rather than some journo’s interpretation of them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 07, 2021, 09:37:49 am
There is a link for sure between AstraZ and blood clotting IMHO, but its a bit like when car companies recall a model that might have serious problems. They only recall them when it gets to a certain number of deaths caused by the faults if its something like brake failure or an airbag crushing a few chest cavities. They work out the cutoff point where the litigation's start to make it too costly and they need to fix the problem forcing a recall.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 07, 2021, 10:19:29 am
Interesting. We’ll have to watch this space.

The person who wrote the article needs to work on terminology. The scientists steered clear of saying there is a causal link, Cavaleri carefully parsing his words by saying it’s “becoming more and more difficult to affirm that there isn’t a cause-and-effect relationship”. But the scribe “filled in the gaps “ by asserting a “link”, “causal link” and “connection”. The trick is to rely on direct quotes rather than some journo’s interpretation of them.

On a personal level, I'd rather I was given the information, and then able to make my own personal risk assessment.

I'd rather not then have my suspicions proven validated even though the assertion that "nothing will go wrong, everything is fine" with the vaccine has been repeated ad nauseum.

I stated early on, that the way the numbers of COVID are being reported, we dont have a clear understanding of what a positive case actually means for the vast majority of people.

We get told about long covid.

We get told about the bad effects of covid.

We get told about asymptomatic positive people spreading.

Thing is, we dont have a clear idea of who falls into which category and all we get told about is what is going to be the best way forward for "everyone" as a collective provided you omit certain facts and viewpoints.

Is it possible that chancing the virus is better than chancing the vaccine?

Has that study been shown?

The one part that MBB does quote states the following:

Quote
However it remains unclear what the connection is and whether the benefits of taking the shot still outweigh the risks of getting COVID-19.

When does this become clear, and looking solely at our nation, given the number of infected, the number of hospitalised, and then the number with actual symptoms, what does this mean?

The questions pile up, the answers are not very easy to find, and for someone like myself, who is given very little choice I would really like to have a clear understanding.

Its worth noting that our fact sheets at work, tow very much the company line, and Ill leave that comment to speak for itself, given I am a government employee.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 07, 2021, 11:17:15 am

The one part that MBB does quote states the following:
Quote
However it remains unclear what the connection is and whether the benefits of taking the shot still outweigh the risks of getting COVID-19.
@‍Thryleon That phrase you quote was the editorial commentary, not the official statement.

The official statement was;
Quote
He stressed the risk-benefit analysis remained positive for the AstraZeneca jab, even for young women who appear to be more affected by the clots.
It appears young women may be at risk of clots from COVID, and it may be there is a increased risk of clots from COVID vaccine. But the latest figures I've heard quoted indicate the positive differential is about 1000:1, that is 100,000 COVID infections in young women would give 1000 incidents of low platlets and clotting, but the vaccine risk if it exists would be just 1 case!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 07, 2021, 12:13:35 pm

@‍Thryleon That phrase you quote was the editorial commentary, not the official statement.

The official statement was;It appears young women may be at risk of clots from COVID, and it may be there is a increased risk of clots from COVID vaccine. But the latest figures I've heard quoted indicate the positive differential is about 1000:1, that is 100,000 COVID infections in young women would give 1000 incidents of low platlets and clotting, but the vaccine risk if it exists would be just 1 case!

Not the point.

You are simply asserting an interpretation of risk assessment not providing the tools in which one was performed.

I.e.  all risk assessments have levels of acceptable risk built in to them.

Thing is, that isn't the same for all people.  Two investors will have different risk profiles.  The assessment is never the same.  Therefore anyone asserting that their risk assessment is the one to follow is acting with a utopian outcome.  Kind of idealistic dont you think?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 07, 2021, 12:31:53 pm
Thing is, that isn't the same for all people.  Two investors will have different risk profiles.  The assessment is never the same.  Therefore anyone asserting that their risk assessment is the one to follow is acting with a utopian outcome.  Kind of idealistic dont you think?
But the risk has to be realistically assessed in a relative framework, and I don't think this vaccine risk is being correctly communicated regardless of how it is assessed.

The total statistical figures are not some idealistic perspective, in fact they are the only truth in this matter, everything else is speculation.

In relation to daily risks, it's thousands of times riskier getting in the car and driving to the clinic for the vaccine shot that it is actually getting the vaccine shot. People do that drive by choice everyday day, millions globally make that decision at the moment. I wouldn't try to calculate the death rate from that commute because I would get it wrong, but it must be catastrophic relative to the risk of the vaccine.

The death rate from COVID is not a fiction, but the death rates from the vaccine reported by social media are a fiction, mostly even for the mainstream media it is just a form of clickbait.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 07, 2021, 12:52:25 pm
But the risk has to be realistically assessed in a relative framework, and I don't think this vaccine risk is being correctly communicated regardless of how it is assessed.

The total statistical figures are not some idealistic perspective, in fact they are the only truth in this matter, everything else is speculation.

It's thousands of times riskier getting in the car and driving to the clinic for the vaccine shot that it is actually getting the vaccine shot. People do that drive by choice everyday day, millions globally make that decision at the moment. I wouldn't try to calculate the death rate from that commute because I would get it wrong, but it must be catastrophic relative to the risk of the vaccine.
Vaccine program is a one size fits all approach geared to herd immunity and with the prospect of losing some of the herd factored in by authorities. Thats all fine as long as its not you or one of your loved ones as that one in the herd that gets picked off.
As long as the majority of the herd are ok, we can keep playing games about the causes of those who do get the clots, the manufacturers can keep doing their own testing and fudging the numbers both with side effects and vaccine efficiency to keep the programs going and the money coming in.
The vaccine program is based around world government economics first and not individual health concerns.The Government have lost a fortune with Job keeper and are not about to give the plebs of the country the more expensive PFizer, Novavax or JJ vaccines. The $4 Astraz jab is what will oil the wheels of the economy better and they dont care if it is part ratsack, magic mushrooms, or causes newborns to grow two heads, thats what the plebs will be having because thats what the country can more afford.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 07, 2021, 12:56:04 pm
Vaccine program is a one size fits all approach geared to herd immunity and with the prospect of losing some of the herd factored in by authorities.
How many have been killed by the vaccine, not the social media claims, but official health department death tolls?

So far the official count is ................... zero, nought, nada, nothing .................... out of 680 Million doses injected.

So where does this statement come from?

"...with the prospect of losing some of the herd factored in by authorities"

The real problem being played out here is the $4, it's not making enough people richer or happier!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 07, 2021, 01:02:15 pm
How many have been killed by the vaccine, not the social media claims, but official health department death tolls?

So far the official count is ................... zero, nought, nada, nothing .................... out of 680 Million doses injected.

So where does this statement come from?

"...with the prospect of losing some of the herd factored in by authorities"

The real problem being played out here is the $4, it's not making enough people richer or happier!
The focus of Herd Immunity is saving the majority of the herd, the minority however small may have to be sacrificed to achieve that.
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56620646
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 07, 2021, 01:06:11 pm
The focus of Herd Immunity is saving the majority of the herd, the minority however small have to be sacrificed to achieve that.
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56620646
The problem @ElwoodBlues1‍ is that the number of deaths being reported from blood clots in the vaccinated population, is proportionally lower than the same blood clot deaths in the unvaccinated population.

On a like for like basis, it looks like if you get the vaccine you are less likely to die from this type of blood clot! :o

The media don't report the numbers of all people who suffer this type of blood clot! Early on an epidemiologist reported that in relation to the UK 31, in the same total number of people from the general population as the vaccination count there would/should be about 80 cases.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 07, 2021, 01:09:34 pm
The problem @ElwoodBlues1‍ is that the number of deaths being reported from blood clots in the vaccinated population, is proportionally lower than the same blood clot deaths in the unvaccinated population.

On a like for like basis, it looks like if you get the vaccine you are less likely to die from this type of blood clot! :o
If someone gets the astraz jab and three days later get blood clots you dont think thats a reasonable probable explanation.
Fate just timed it that their blood clots coincided with getting the jab.?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 07, 2021, 01:11:20 pm
If someone gets the astraz jab and three days later get blood clots you dont think thats a reasonable probable explanation.
Fate just timed it that their blood clots coincided with getting the jab.?
Yes exactly, if the global numbers are not faked it could be explained as fate.

Statically if the same number of general population just walked through the hospital without being vaccinated, there should be 80 clot cases in that perambulatory population in the next 30 days.

btw., Many of those reporting clots happened weeks or months after the jab, they aren't all reporting clots after 3 days, the 3 days is misleading.

I listened to a podcast where one patient developed syncope after the vaccine, was investigated and found to have a clot, but for that clot to already be in place it had to be forming hours or days before the vaccine was issued. It's not a light switch moment.

In the total population, the vaccination numbers are so huge, there will also be a percentage diagnosed post vaccination with MS, MND, cancer, diabetes, epliepsy, depression, Chron's Disease, etc., etc., etc., it's just coincidence it is not caused by the vaccines.

The media is focussed on the AstraZeneca, because of the $4, if they were genuinely concerned they be calling for J&J to be restricted as well.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 07, 2021, 01:19:49 pm
Yes exactly, if the global numbers are not faked it could be explained as fate.

Statically if the same number of general population just walked through the hospital without being vaccinated, there should be 80 clot case in that perambulatory population in the next 30 days.
https://sciencenorway.no/covid19/norwegian-experts-say-deadly-blood-clots-were-caused-by-the-astrazeneca-covid-vaccine/1830510.
When 31 Norwegians suddenly present with blood clots or what ever the number was its just a coincidence?, I find that hard to believe. That article above tells a different story, another Government on the ropes wanting the dubious EMA to bail them out from  having to confront the independent experts opinions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 07, 2021, 01:34:25 pm
The death rate in Norway is 7.9 people per 1000 per year, or 0.63 per thousand per months.

505,000 thousand Norwegians have been vaccinated over a month, of that 505,000 nearly 950 who got the vaccine would have died over the vaccination period.

I don't have Norway figures on clots, and it can vary, but the EU experts come out and stated it's comparable to the background rate.

In the USA, about 300 people die per day from thromboembolism, and there are nearly 700 cases per day (250,000 per year) of severe thromboembolism. That's a 40% mortality. If you are vaccinating large portions of the population in a month a death from a clot is an inevitable coincidence.

Just getting a plain needle with no injectable increases the risk! :o

PS; I'm not claiming it's impossible, I'm just trying to clarify the chance of it happening and being true!

Do you let your kids get in cars?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 07, 2021, 01:51:37 pm
The death rate in Norway is 7.9 people per 1000 per year, or 0.63 per thousand per months.

505,000 thousand Norwegians have been vaccinated over a month, of that 505,000 nearly 950 who got the vaccine would have died over the vaccination period.

I don't have Norway figures on clots, and it can vary, but the EU experts come out and stated it's comparable to the background rate.

In the USA, about 300 people die per day from thromboembolism, and there are nearly 700 cases per day (250,000 per year) of severe thromboembolism. That's a 40% mortality. If you are vaccinating large portions of the population in a month a death from a clot is an inevitable coincidence.

Just getting a plain needle with no injectable increases the risk! :o

PS; I'm not claiming it's impossible, I'm just trying to clarify the chance of it happening and being true!

Do you let your kids get in cars?
I always see this car argument, but here is the kicker.

Not everyone drives the same.  Not everyone drives as far or for as long.

The stats are always fudged.

Outliers are considered outliers until they aren't outliers anymore.

Its not as simple as anyone makes out.  There's lies, dammed lies, and then statistics is how the saying goes.

If I'm relatively low risk for covid (under 40, and healthy) and I get the jab and end up with blood clots (44 year old at box hill hospital) how does that risk assessment go when I work in a hospital that has seen and treated covid/scovid patients and yet have not contracted covid even during our worst infection rates whilst going into those areas?

I.e.  I will 100% get the jab, but I won't 100% get covid at this rate.  Even if I did, the chances are I won't be adversely affected with long covid based on current numbers, infection and probable outcomes but if I end up with blood clots and a low platelet count then what?

Note, this isn't an easy answer and nor should it be and its a question that has yet to be asked and before anyone goes too hard here I want you to keep in mind that for us to conceive we need to go down ARS and what impact will covid/jab have for us to conceive successfully?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 07, 2021, 02:32:24 pm
I always see this car argument, but here is the kicker.

Not everyone drives the same.  Not everyone drives as far or for as long.
The stats are always fudged.
Outliers are considered outliers until they aren't outliers anymore.
Its not as simple as anyone makes out.  There's lies, dammed lies, and then statistics is how the saying goes.
It's not what your common sense thinks it is either, you need to understand The Monty Hall problem to understand why common sense fails.

The risk isn't accumulative in a relative framework, whether you drive 1 kilometre or 1000 the chance or dying in kilometre 1 is the same as the chance of dying in kilometre 1000. And the risk in kilometre 1001 is the same as the risk in any of the previous 1000 kilometres.

Secondly, and very very importantly, when you take the vaccine jab you aren't increasing risk, you are reducing risk.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 07, 2021, 02:41:13 pm
Secondly, and very very importantly, when you take the vaccine jab you aren't increasing risk, you are reducing risk.

As Thry alluded to earlier that depends on your risk profile and this vaccination program is a one size fits all from now on with only the Astraz on offer.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 07, 2021, 02:51:59 pm
As Thry alluded to earlier that depends on your risk profile and this vaccination program is a one size fits all from now on with only the Astraz on offer.
It's a pretty selfish perspective.

Even if you get mild or asymptomatic COVID you can still transmit it while you are infectious, reducing the infection reduces the period you are infectious contributing to preventing it's spread and keeps your loved ones safer. Now it's starting to look like the vaccines reduce transmission significantly.

Aunt or Grandma (daughter, son, wife, brother or sister.) doesn't get the vaccine, fearful from all the rumours and reports, then you give them a dose of your mild COVID case, they die or suffer long COVID. Do you take the credit for that and is that part of the risk calculation?

They were just part of your risk calculation weren't they, you did consider them didn't you?

The vaccine isn't just about self, there are two sides to the risk coin, you have to always deal with both!

PS; COVID already here in the environment, you can't lock it out with a border closure or by downing all the planes and sinking all the ships.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 07, 2021, 02:57:34 pm
It's a pretty selfish perspective.

Even if you get mild or asymptomatic COVID you can still transmit it while you are infectious, reducing the infection reduces the period you are infectious contributing to preventing it's spread and keeps your loved ones safer. Now it's starting to look like the vaccines reduce transmission significantly.

Aunt or Grandma (daughter, son, wife, brother or sister.) doesn't get the vaccine, fearful from all the rumours and reports, then you give them a dose of your mild COVID case, they die or suffer long COVID. Do you take the credit for that and is that part of the risk calculation?

The vaccine isn't just about self!

PS; COVID already here in the environment, you can't lock it out with a border closure or downing all the planes.
Exactly my point...its all about the herd and not the individual so a few individuals whose risk profile or with undetected issues will have to be sacrificed for the good of the herd.
The Government just need to make that clear that a few cattle wont make it to market and we are sorry but opening borders etc is more important than you are...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 07, 2021, 03:03:03 pm
Exactly my point...its all about the herd and not the individual so a few individuals whose risk profile or with undetected issues will have to be sacrificed for the good of the herd.

The Government just need to make that clear that a few cattle wont make it to market and we are sorry but opening borders etc is more important than you are...
I've asked you this question before, who is being sacrificed?

Getting the vaccine is a free choice, but that is not saying "No" doesn't come with it's own set of consequences.

Bob doesn't get the vaccine, but he gets asymptomatic COVID and goes to "The G" with 50,000 others, does he have some relatives at the game or on the train or is it bad luck for the strangers?

Maybe one of those strangers work's with Bob's elderly mum, did he say no to his mum's vaccine too?

Although like the rest of the denial process, I'm sure the consequences of "No" will be rejected by the naysayers. Sounds a bit NIMBY!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 07, 2021, 03:47:29 pm
It's not what your common sense thinks it is either, you need to understand The Monty Hall problem to understand why common sense fails.

The risk isn't accumulative in a relative framework, whether you drive 1 kilometre or 1000 the chance or dying in kilometre 1 is the same as the chance of dying in kilometre 1000. And the risk in kilometre 1001 is the same as the risk in any of the previous 1000 kilometres.

Secondly, and very very importantly, when you take the vaccine jab you aren't increasing risk, you are reducing risk.

See that logic is flawed.

HOW you drive is just as important, than how far and for how long.

i.e.  with your driving statistics, who's level of driving are we talking?  The person who consistently speeds, and drives an older car with minimal safety features and doesnt wear a seat belt?  Are we talking about an elderly or young person with better or lesser reactive skills?  Are we talking a new car with all the mod cons, and safety measures driving at greater than or less than the speed limit?

IMHO, the factors surrounding how, what where and when you drive, is far more important than any fudged statisic.  Some people solely drive in peak hour traffic inching along at 10ks an hour.  The stats on death might profile the average driver, but dont catch all drivers behaviour, and thats where these studies really fall apart.

THATS why when people start talking about the vaccine with similar statistical analysis, and omit the key data (such as people in their 40's developing low platelet counts and bloodclots) and some flaky data on how safe and effective this vaccine is, then it already lives in assertion of grey area.

LP, think of this forum as a think tank.  I see the angle you are arguing.  You have taken the company line, and are actively pushing it.  I am of a different philosophy.  Entertain the idea, keep entertaining it, view all angles, viewpoints, perspectives, and then try and determine what the best course of action is.

This is not for one person or body to determine IMHO.  I dont want to debate COVID and its ability to impact.   All it takes is a mutation for that game to become seriously deadly, but then there is a different argument.  If people are exposed to the virus now, they might have better immunity to a mutant version.

If the deaths that are covid related are being recorded accurate (from covid, not with covid) then it also changes things.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 07, 2021, 03:56:56 pm
See that logic is flawed.
No it's not flawed @Thryleon , it's math, it's the human part of the analysis, the "common sense" that is flawed. It ignores part of the risk.

Keep that thought you have of viewing all angles, because you've ignored a chunk.

When you are injured or die driving, you do not have to be the person at fault, about 50% of cases aren't the person speeding, aren't the person risk taking, they are killed by the speeding risk taker. You don't have to be breaking the law, you can be driving and fall asleep, have a heart attack or stroke, and kill yourself and multiple others, or the person coming the other way has a heart attack, is drunk or has a stroke, how careful "you are" is somewhat irrelevant. You can be a pedestrian and be killed by a "not at fault" driver, that is why kilometre 1 is the same as kilometre 1000.

This is made famous in the movie A Beautiful Mind, the mathematical concepts of John Nash, game theory,
Quote
"Adam Smith said that the best result comes from everyone in the group doing what is best for himself, right? That's what he said. Incomplete. OK, because the best result would come from everyone in the group doing what is best for himself and the group."
"On May 23, 2015, Nash and his wife Alicia died in a car crash while riding in a taxi on the New Jersey Turnpike" they did nothing wrong!

Interestingly, it could be argued that speeding risk taker is analogous to the COVID vaccine denier!

A huge portion of 780 Million vaccine doses is not "flaky data", no matter how you want to paint it!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 07, 2021, 06:29:38 pm
I've asked you this question before, who is being sacrificed?

Getting the vaccine is a free choice, but that is not saying "No" doesn't come with it's own set of consequences.

Bob doesn't get the vaccine, but he gets asymptomatic COVID and goes to "The G" with 50,000 others, does he have some relatives at the game or on the train or is it bad luck for the strangers?

Maybe one of those strangers work's with Bob's elderly mum, did he say no to his mum's vaccine too?

Although like the rest of the denial process, I'm sure the consequences of "No" will be rejected by the naysayers. Sounds a bit NIMBY!

LP, Not everyone is proactive with their health or educated/interested in the pros and cons of vaccines. They will just do as they are told and lineup for a jab when maybe they need to consult their GP first if they have any risk factors , or find out what vaccine might suit them better. I know people who think its compulsory and they will get a fine if they dont have it. Because its the government selling the program in the news etc, the level of trust and security is high for many folk.
How many folk do you think if asked could tell you what vaccines are on offer and what side effects could possibly occur?
25% of the population?, 30%, 40%......??

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 07, 2021, 06:42:27 pm
No it's not flawed @Thryleon , it's math, it's the human part of the analysis, the "common sense" that is flawed. It ignores part of the risk.

Keep that thought you have of viewing all angles, because you've ignored a chunk.

When you are injured or die driving, you do not have to be the person at fault, about 50% of cases aren't the person speeding, aren't the person risk taking, they are killed by the speeding risk taker. You don't have to be breaking the law, you can be driving and fall asleep, have a heart attack or stroke, and kill yourself and multiple others, or the person coming the other way has a heart attack, is drunk or has a stroke, how careful "you are" is somewhat irrelevant. You can be a pedestrian and be killed by a "not at fault" driver, that is why kilometre 1 is the same as kilometre 1000.

This is made famous in the movie A Beautiful Mind, the mathematical concepts of John Nash, game theory,"On May 23, 2015, Nash and his wife Alicia died in a car crash while riding in a taxi on the New Jersey Turnpike" they did nothing wrong!

Interestingly, it could be argued that speeding risk taker is analogous to the COVID vaccine denier!

A huge portion of 780 Million vaccine doses is not "flaky data", no matter how you want to paint it!

Math assumes all situations are equal.  They aren't.

Its not perfect.  The humans performing the math is where the flaws come from lp.  Not the common sense.  The modelling is imperfect even of its the best modelling we've got and any statistician knows this.

Eddie betts didn't trouble the stats men.  He had a top game for a small forward on the weekend that had minimal possessions.

The stats say otherwise.

Speaking of stats, initially the calculations regarding covid assumed all positive cases go to icu.  Look how that modelling turned out.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 07, 2021, 06:48:09 pm
Looks like the choice may be taken away from you, govt threats of punishment perhaps?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-6z25UveEY
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on April 07, 2021, 08:55:43 pm
If you don't buy the asymptomatic transmission con, this whole fraud falls over.

John Ioannidis has just crunched the numbers - again - and whilst there are some regional differences, the overall IFR is akin to a modest flu season.

And hey presto, the flu has magically disappeared.

If that doesn't  raise your eyebrows, nothing will.

Oh, and tell me which country has been heavily vaccinated against this most deadly disease?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 08, 2021, 07:56:53 am
Math assumes all situations are equal.  They aren't.

Its not perfect.  The humans performing the math is where the flaws come from lp.  Not the common sense.  The modelling is imperfect even of its the best modelling we've got and any statistician knows this.
Math doesn't make any assumptions, people make assumptions, sometimes people make assumptions because they don't understand the math. It's not just a before or after, it can be either.

Of course the models aren't perfect, but they are still far far better than human assumptions or human common sense.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 08, 2021, 07:59:05 am
Notice the the bulk of the media hasn't reported that it was the Pfizer vaccine that elderly lady had just before she perished, why?

Do you think the reports would be the same if it were AstraZeneca?

The truth is, just like AstraZeneca, it's coincidence, noting more and nothing less.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 08, 2021, 08:00:49 am
John Ioannidis has just crunched the numbers - again - 
 Bah humbug.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 08, 2021, 08:18:05 am
I suspect this is Novavax putting the mechanisms in place to get around any potential EU export bans. They are putting a supply chain structure in place that won't be easily regulated without massively disrupting normal trade.
I see we have been taking sly deliveries of AstraZeneca from the UK factory, I suspect if we'd been a bit proactive and put a deal in place with Novavax we be getting them from them as well, as they use UK production to work around the EU restrictions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 08, 2021, 11:45:18 am
Math doesn't make any assumptions, people make assumptions, sometimes people make assumptions because they don't understand the math. It's not just a before or after, it can be either.

Of course the models aren't perfect, but they are still far far better than human assumptions or human common sense.

I learnt in high school that you can get the math wrong by plugging the wrong mix of values in even if you use the correct method to calculating.

I also learnt that statistics relies on consistent outcomes.

This is where it falls over.  Going back to driving for a moment, if you drive a car quickly and further more frequently your chance of being in an accident should rise consistent with the math, but you don't actually assert that and when I raised this point you guickly dismissed it.

The stats don't state this.  They throw out different numbers which is where the anomalies come from.  They assert that the risk is 1 in x will have an accident.  Thing is, you can be 1 in 1 and have an accident, or you can drive your whole life and not be in one.  This isn't about debunking the stats, its just that the stats are a guide not a guarantee and depending on your fortune, you may end up with different outcomes irrespective of what the studies show.

I go back to covid for one moment.  We have a small sample size that is heavily weighted to elderly in assisted living/aged care scenarios as the majority of our cases.  Using stats as a study, the numbers and outcomes are a sample size biased by our sample group are they not?  If so, then we actually don't have sound data to form a reasonable understanding of what outcomes we are going to see with respect to covid.

Its not our data we are using its data from abroad.  If we take a moment to realise our population live in vastly different conditions and have a different health profile perhaps we might end up with the stats not telling us much but what scenario we could end up with instead of what we will end up with.

Does that make sense?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 08, 2021, 11:49:50 am
I go back to covid for one moment.  We have a small sample size that is heavily weighted to elderly in assisted living/aged care scenarios as the majority of our cases.  Using stats as a study, the numbers and outcomes are a sample size biased by our sample group are they not?  If so, then we actually don't have sound data to form a reasonable understanding of what outcomes we are going to see with respect to covid.

Its not our data we are using its data from abroad.  If we take a moment to realise our population live in vastly different conditions and have a different health profile perhaps we might end up with the stats not telling us much but what scenario we could end up with instead of what we will end up with.

Does that make sense?
No.

The sample size is not small, the disease is global. You can't claim things are different here as an exemption from the global reality.

What sort of ethnicity or society makes someone or some region exempt from the global trend? Even in your own case, the figures in Greece are probably even more relevant for yourself than the figures in Australia, as many risks might be fundamentally genetic, and Greece is in a huge COVID hole!

Critics cannot arbitrarily segment the facts and data, some want to argue against the vaccine based on Norway, then they claim that what happens overseas is not relevant. It's a form of cherry-picking.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 08, 2021, 02:05:16 pm
UK looking at looking at stopping AstraZ use for under 30's....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 08, 2021, 02:14:51 pm
No.

The sample size is not small, the disease is global. You can't claim things are different here as an exemption from the global reality.

What sort of ethnicity or society makes someone or some region exempt from the global trend? Even in your own case, the figures in Greece are probably even more relevant for yourself than the figures in Australia, as many risks might be fundamentally genetic, and Greece is in a huge COVID hole!

Critics cannot arbitrarily segment the facts and data, some want to argue against the vaccine based on Norway, then they claim that what happens overseas is not relevant. It's a form of cherry-picking.


Actually I can.

We have different population density.

We have different healthcare networks and living standards.
You cannot apply the same situation to a nation that has free healthcare like us vs the pay for service model operated in the USA as one example.

We are not third world.  Our nation is quite young, our infrastructure quite new.

Given we have different variants and mutations of covid there is no guarantee that the data from some nations is even relevant with respect to what can and will happen here.

Im sorry to have burst your bubble.  It looks like you haven't considered that whilst swallowing the company line hook line and sinker.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on April 08, 2021, 07:26:45 pm
The experts have spoken.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on April 08, 2021, 07:28:25 pm
If I was over 50 I wouldn't be feeling confident.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 08, 2021, 08:10:41 pm
We have different population density.
Cities are the main COVID driver, 3rd world dispersed regions are not a feature.....so far!

COVID mutates where it is, you don't need to import anything! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 08, 2021, 08:57:17 pm
If I was over 50 I wouldn't be feeling confident.
I'm not....Astraz needs scrapping, its dangerous and the governments have been in denial trying to save a dollar.
It was rushed through not tested properly and now 50 plus people wont feel safe.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 08, 2021, 09:22:48 pm
I'm none too sure about our government "saving a dollar" when they've invested billions in combating the virus from day one EB.  I'm prepared to wait until ALL the evidence is in. 

But it's not down to the money AFAIC. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 08, 2021, 09:39:34 pm
I'm none too sure about our government "saving a dollar" when they've invested billions in combating the virus from day one EB.  I'm prepared to wait until ALL the evidence is in. 

But it's not down to the money AFAIC. 
Cap, This is the problem, Aus is carrying a big debt thanks to Covid and Jobkeeper....the AstraZ is $4 a jab and can be made here by CSL. The other vaccines cost more and in some cases getting them here and storing them correctly is also going to cost even more.
A lot of decent countries now are halting or scrapping  the AstraZ and you really have to be suspicious when the prime Minister and his cronies get the Pfizer and the plebs get the AstraZ.
I really dont how the Government can sell the idea its completely safe for over 50s either...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 08, 2021, 10:14:31 pm
I'm none too sure about our government "saving a dollar" when they've invested billions in combating the virus from day one EB.  I'm prepared to wait until ALL the evidence is in. 

But it's not down to the money AFAIC.
Yep agreed, a lot to play out here yet.

The over 50 bit seems somewhat arbitrary, it's not related to any figures or studies whatsoever. Are they targeting the young female vote, it feels like an age demographic figure plucked from social media?

If there is a risk, and it's still a huge if because despite the claims in the media the numbers still don't stack up, it's in young women under 30, that has always has been that case right from the start.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on April 09, 2021, 07:12:28 am
For what it's worth,  I still feel OK. 🤫
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 09, 2021, 11:29:11 am
For what it's worth,  I still feel OK. 🤫
Yes, great news Cookie2.

Reality is, we've issued about 450,000 AstraZeneca doses in Australia and have one clotting case that turned out to involve a patient with a whole bunch of severe pre-existing heart / lung medical conditions complicating the issue and increasing the personal risk. Not dissimilar to the now revealed elderly patient that passed a few hours after getting Pfizer which was tragic.

COVID is likely to be 20,000 times more deadly to these people than the vaccine, but you won't see the media mention that. Currently, for every 200,000 of those susceptible people that get the vaccine 1 will have a severe clot incident, while for the same group of every 10 who get COVID 1 will die!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 09, 2021, 11:48:12 am
Yes, great news Cookie2.

Reality is, we've issued about 450,000 AstraZeneca doses in Australia and have one clotting case that turned out to involve a patient with a whole bunch of severe pre-existing heart / lung medical conditions complicating the issue and increasing the personal risk. Not dissimilar to the now revealed elderly patient that passed a few hours after getting Pfizer which was tragic.

COVID is likely to be 20,000 times more deadly to these people than the vaccine, but you won't see the media mention that. Currently, for every 200,000 of those susceptible people that get the vaccine 1 will have a severe clot incident, while for the same group of every 10 who get COVID 1 will die!
A lot of the western world is changing their tune on AstraZ and there has to be a reason, these are not flea bitten countries like Cuba and the like complaining and FWIW the Pfizer also has its problems...lets just say a lot of sick nurses and paramedics that are not making the news.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on April 09, 2021, 11:58:09 am
A lot of the western world is changing their tune on AstraZ and there has to be a reason, these are not flea bitten countries like Cuba and the like complaining and FWIW the Pfizer also has its problems...lets just say a lot of sick nurses and paramedics that are not making the news.

And there were a good few rumours a few weeks back about large numbers of the ADF getting smacked around by whichever 'vaccine' they took......
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 09, 2021, 12:45:05 pm
A lot of the western world is changing their tune on AstraZ and there has to be a reason, these are not flea bitten countries like Cuba and the like complaining and FWIW the Pfizer also has its problems...lets just say a lot of sick nurses and paramedics that are not making the news.
They follow the leader ++, Germany says young women, then UK says u30s, then Aust says u50s, then NSW says everybody, it's about politics not science. The exposure risk in young women is 1:200,000 across several global locations, 1/100th the risk of the same side-effect to the contraceptive pill.

Vaccines have side-effects, even in double blind trials when issued a placebo people get sick and blame the vaccine. The nocebo effect, it's well known, the true condition exists in the difference between placebo/nocebo effects and real side-effects.
Quote
A nocebo effect is said to occur when negative expectations of the patient regarding a treatment cause the treatment to have a more negative effect than it otherwise would have. For example, when a patient anticipates a side effect of a medication, they can suffer that effect even if the "medication" is actually an inert substance.
As more negative social media commentary that exists, the more nocebo cases will surface, you/they can't help it it's in the head, and nobody is immune, only fools and idiots think they are! The best you can do is recognise the influence of external effects.

Studies have also shown that increased stress hormone levels, amplify all the side-effects and physically change outcomes.

Dogooders are actually harming people just by worrying them about something that might be bad for them!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 13, 2021, 01:44:00 pm
Governments might be reluctant to enforce policies that are seen as limiting free will, but corporations certainly are not reluctant at all!

Lots of services are being added almost daily to the list of services and employment that depend on having a vaccine passport, it will be interesting to see where this goes. Airlines, Cruise lines, Interstate Trains, Hospitality, Health Care, etc., etc.. The list grows by the day!

I realise this is all about liability, but the left won't see it that way and they will rally against it, but will they refuse to catch that bus or train?

The current legal truth is that corporations can refuse service to whoever they like.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on April 13, 2021, 03:27:41 pm
Another Covid Myth Dies the Death

https://www.aier.org/article/another-covid-myth-dies-the-death/

Quote
On April 5, however, the CDC page was replaced by a much-simplified set of instructions, which includes now this discreet note: “In most situations, the risk of infection from touching a surface is low.” Oh is that so?

The link goes to the following:

Quantitative microbial risk assessment (QMRA) studies have been conducted to understand and characterize the relative risk of SARS-CoV-2 fomite transmission and evaluate the need for and effectiveness of prevention measures to reduce risk. Findings of these studies suggest that the risk of SARS-CoV-2 infection via the fomite transmission route is low, and generally less than 1 in 10,000, which means that each contact with a contaminated surface has less than a 1 in 10,000 chance of causing an infection.

In reality? Zero.

Quote
Fortunately the New York Times did some accurate reporting on the CDC update, quoting all kinds of experts who claim to have known this all along.

“Finally,” said Linsey Marr, an expert on airborne viruses at Virginia Tech. “We’ve known this for a long time and yet people are still focusing so much on surface cleaning.” She added, “There’s really no evidence that anyone has ever gotten Covid-19 by touching a contaminated surface.”
Quote

Won't see that in the MSM.

Next for the asymptomatic take down.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 13, 2021, 03:43:55 pm
The methods of transmission are additive, not exclusive. R0 is measured and not altered by or calculated from the transmission model, the transmission model has to fit the observed R0. Proving one pathway is less infectious, just means some other mechanism has to make up for the shortfall, R0 won't change. So I'm not sure what your point is here.

Experts on transmission have said right from the start infection risks from surfaces or ingestion are very low, very early on I recall posting a comment that a virology expert claimed to catch SARS-CoV-2 from ingestion you would basically have to drink a 300mL of concentrated virus.

The main problem seems to be that spreading SARS-CoV-2 via surfaces increases the public exposure risk, it's the same functional argument as calling for the use of masks to protect others by using them correctly, as in disposing of single use masks after a single use.

The more people get exposed through contact the more likely someone becomes unlucky number 1:10000, for example from a mass transit system, who can then they can spread it locally via exhalation at a much higher rate! Of course on the mass transit system the chance remains much higher that you've inhaled COVID than collected it off a surface, but the R0 doesn't change.

Of course all this social media argy bargy goes on as Michigan locks down with thousands of new cases everyday! Michigan was pretty much 50/50 in the election, will Trump offer half the population his $30K/person treatment?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 13, 2021, 08:33:22 pm
Governments might be reluctant to enforce policies that are seen as limiting free will, but corporations certainly are not reluctant at all!

Lots of services are being added almost daily to the list of services and employment that depend on having a vaccine passport, it will be interesting to see where this goes. Airlines, Cruise lines, Interstate Trains, Hospitality, Health Care, etc., etc.. The list grows by the day!

I realise this is all about liability, but the left won't see it that way and they will rally against it, but will they refuse to catch that bus or train?

The current legal truth is that corporations can refuse service to whoever they like.

I don't know how a vaccine passport is going to work with current health information laws and freedom of information laws.

You wouldn't want this tested in court as its a medico legal minefield.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on April 14, 2021, 02:12:45 pm
The methods of transmission are additive, not exclusive. R0 is measured and not altered by or calculated from the transmission model, the transmission model has to fit the observed R0. Proving one pathway is less infectious, just means some other mechanism has to make up for the shortfall, R0 won't change. So I'm not sure what your point is here.

Experts on transmission have said right from the start infection risks from surfaces or ingestion are very low, very early on I recall posting a comment that a virology expert claimed to catch SARS-CoV-2 from ingestion you would basically have to drink a 300mL of concentrated virus.

The main problem seems to be that spreading SARS-CoV-2 via surfaces increases the public exposure risk, it's the same functional argument as calling for the use of masks to protect others by using them correctly, as in disposing of single use masks after a single use.

The more people get exposed through contact the more likely someone becomes unlucky number 1:10000, for example from a mass transit system, who can then they can spread it locally via exhalation at a much higher rate! Of course on the mass transit system the chance remains much higher that you've inhaled COVID than collected it off a surface, but the R0 doesn't change.

Of course all this social media argy bargy goes on as Michigan locks down with thousands of new cases everyday! Michigan was pretty much 50/50 in the election, will Trump offer half the population his $30K/person treatment?

You can't be serious?

The models - just like the climate models - have been shown to be so wildly wrong I'm surprised the modellers (that Ferguson idiot in the case of the Imperial College modelling) haven't been laughed out of the country and exiled.

His track record is as bad as Tim 'Flim Flam' Flannery in the climate change space.

And yeah, I know you're a true believer and nothing - not even damning empirical evidence - will change your mind.

I've kind of figured you're on the gravy train....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 14, 2021, 02:24:28 pm
You can't be serious?

The models -
You've confused a debate about models of transmission methods (How) with general purpose epidemiological / statistical models (How Many).

R0 is not a model, it's simply calculated / derived from the case numbers. R0 doesn't change if the mix of How changes, R0 prediction might be affected by the early How Many models, but once you have tens of millions of cases and millions of deaths the How Many is no longer a model and R0 becomes a hard count figure.

The researchers claiming the How is no longer so much about spread via surfaces has no bearing on the How Many which is in the past, it just means you need a better explanation of How so that the How model matches the established How Many count.

Anyway, I'm not sure what you are after, the argument you make supports more lock downs by implying the How is less likely to be a surface and more likely to be air, a far riskier proposition. If you want restrictions eased combined with simple prophylaxis you should be barracking for spread via surfaces as it's dead easy to manage.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on April 15, 2021, 08:28:09 pm
48 year old NSW woman died from blood clots a week after the vaccine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 15, 2021, 10:37:27 pm
48 year old NSW woman died from blood clots a week after the vaccine.
https://au.yahoo.com/news/nsw-woman-dies-days-after-receiving-covid-vaccine-091213267.html
AstraZ been scrapped in Denmark, the whole program is a mess now, when you fast track vaccines you just cant test
thoroughly enough in such a short time period.
They want to let people back into  Aus based on this vaccination program being successful, how is that possible now?
Guaranteed we will have Covid back if we allow Andrews and crew to let people into Victoria given how poor we are at managing quarantine procedures..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 15, 2021, 10:44:43 pm
Totally agree ....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 15, 2021, 11:01:20 pm
https://au.yahoo.com/news/nsw-woman-dies-days-after-receiving-covid-vaccine-091213267.html
AstraZ been scrapped in Denmark, the whole program is a mess now, when you fast track vaccines you just cant test
thoroughly enough in such a short time period.
They want to let people back into  Aus based on this vaccination program being successful, how is that possible now?
Guaranteed we will have Covid back if we allow Andrews and crew to let people into Victoria given how poor we are at managing quarantine procedures..
5 new cases in Hotel Quarantine today.
Re the AZ vaccine, whilst there may well be a link between clots and the vaccine, it can still be effective at preventing Covid can it not?.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 15, 2021, 11:38:33 pm
5 new cases in Hotel Quarantine today.
Re the AZ vaccine, whilst there may well be a link between clots and the vaccine, it can still be effective at preventing Covid can it not?.
I'm not a vaccine expert but I guess the theory is some protection is better than no protection. My concern would be the variants like the South African and any other that are newer and how the vaccines hold up and how well they have been tested vs the newer CoVid strains. The blood clot issue numbers are small vs the overall number of vaccinations taking place I am happy to admit but as that 48 year womans family can tell you now you could be the one who gets that random bullet in the chamber and you become that member of the herd who has to fall as part of the herd immunity where there are no guarantees.
No one wants to be the unlucky sucker who happens to have a underlying issue thats not apparent  and gets clots in weird places..
Its like buying a new car model, you dont want the initial model, you want the 3rd version onwards with all the bugs fixed to feel safer....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 16, 2021, 06:19:25 am
5 new cases in Hotel Quarantine today.
Re the AZ vaccine, whilst there may well be a link between clots and the vaccine, it can still be effective at preventing Covid can it not?.

Case numbers somehow became the yardstick for how we were tracking with covid.

The problem i see is that the real question needing to be asked with respect to cases and vaccinations is that the main data required is people admitted to hospital as a covid patient vs how many are not admitted at all.

The covid reporting has been very imbalanced making it difficult to draw some good conclusions about it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 16, 2021, 07:21:34 am
... and if anyone here is aware in their extended circle of family and friends, someone who is diabetic, they should be careful with the jab unless their blood glucose levels are in a very good place.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 16, 2021, 07:56:19 am

The covid reporting has been very imbalanced making it difficult to draw some good conclusions about it.
Yes, they should stop telling us how many are dead, nearly 3 Million now, and more about how many have long long term symptoms that are managed as outpatients.

Do we really want to know? :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 16, 2021, 08:00:55 am
... and if anyone here is aware in their extended circle of family and friends, someone who is diabetic, they should be careful with the jab unless their blood glucose levels are in a very good place.
That might just be correlation, official findings are needed.

There are two other conditions that also look to correlate, being a young female and on the pill, and having a history of blood thinners. But in fairness to the vaccines it looks on cursory inspection like the pill and COVID-19 are also a more deadly duo, particularly if you are on the pill for reasons other than avoiding pregnancy.

Secondly, it looks like unwittingly some doctors might have contributed to the demise of some patients by issuing blood thinners as a treatment for the clots, the wrong type can make the situation much much worse having a paradoxical effect. Apparently this is a known known and can be managed once a patients history is know, but that of course won't catch 100% of cases.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 16, 2021, 08:07:58 am
Case numbers somehow became the yardstick for how we were tracking with covid.

The problem i see is that the real question needing to be asked with respect to cases and vaccinations is that the main data required is people admitted to hospital as a covid patient vs how many are not admitted at all.

The covid reporting has been very imbalanced making it difficult to draw some good conclusions about it.
All I was suggesting was that the minute they allowed people from OS in, they came bearing a gift.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 16, 2021, 08:11:21 am
All I was suggesting was that the minute they allowed people from OS in, they came bearing a gift.
It's sort of only applicable once / while we are COVID free which won't be forever, sooner or later there will be domestic transmission, it's only a matter of time.

The full reservoir for COVID is not known, but it's already here to stay!

One problem we have with COVID is that the health process is bias in that it preferentially picks up harmful mutagens, there could be dozens of virulent but harmless mutagens circulating, and it won't be until one mutates to something quite harmful that we will know about it. It's completely wrong for some to claim COVID will mutate into something safe, because it doesn't stay that way, it keeps mutating.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 16, 2021, 08:18:43 am
Interesting Pfizer now hinting you need a 3rd or ongoing doses for their mRNA vaccine to keep you protected.

Got shares $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on April 16, 2021, 09:37:17 am
There are now hints beginning to circulate that an annual jab will possibly be necessary.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on April 16, 2021, 01:31:32 pm
There are now hints beginning to circulate that an annual jab will possibly be necessary.
Just like the flu.

Constantly mutating, constantly need to get the latest 'software update'.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 16, 2021, 01:37:27 pm
Just like the flu.

Constantly mutating, constantly need to get the latest 'software update'.
I suspect you'll find J&J and AstraZeneca will modify their stuff and we will be back into it, if not the cost of inoculating the planet will rise 2x to 10x on par with the proposed remedies for treating an infection.

The range of costs seems quite wide;
Bulk Estimates dependant on location:
$30-$50 per person (Adenovirus)
$90 - $150 per person (mRNA)
$600 - $1500 per person (moAB)

We need lots of bulk options to keep the bastards honest$

Either way, we need to realise this isn't going away anytime soon, so there is no point delaying the need to look at different ways for getting on with life.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 16, 2021, 08:38:24 pm
Yes, they should stop telling us how many are dead, nearly 3 Million now, and more about how many have long long term symptoms that are managed as outpatients.

Do we really want to know? :o
yes.  Id like to know exactly whats happening before getting a vaccine that could kill someone in my demographic.  Im almost 40.

As for long term managed outpatients, you'd have to know specifically what the issues are.  After all if its only 1 in 1000 chance of a long covid episode then that still matches the statistical blood clots count from the vaccine.  Right?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 16, 2021, 10:38:28 pm
yes.  Id like to know exactly whats happening before getting a vaccine that could kill someone in my demographic.  Im almost 40.

As for long term managed outpatients, you'd have to know specifically what the issues are.  After all if its only 1 in 1000 chance of a long covid episode then that still matches the statistical blood clots count from the vaccine.  Right?
I heard an epidemiologist today state how crazy it is to suspend/cut any of the vaccines, at this stage in Europe vaccination rates have fallen by about 1 million per day, and COVID cases are now rising in many locations. He said it's expected that 10%(100K) of those 1 million now not getting vaccinated daily due to the cut will get COVID, and out of that shortfall group at least 5 will die and 3000 will get long COVID, while if they had vaccinated that 100K COVID cases none would get severe or long COVID, and only 1/2 a person per day gets a clotting issue.

30% of all COVID patients, on the full spectrum from asymptomatic to severe, will suffer from some form of clotting or low platelet count issue.

0.0005% of COVID vaccine recipients get a severe clot issue.

That is interesting based on the newest news. Today it's surfaced that the UK has an almost 50/50 strike rate for clotting from Adenovirus or mRNA vaccines. It's all been kept a bit quiet on the Moderna / Pfizer side of the debate, apparently Moderna(mRNA) has been under investigation in the US for several weeks and it's not been made public.

There is lots and lots of politics going on in all this.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 16, 2021, 11:05:44 pm
I went to my Haemotologist today for my check up, I asked her the obligatory question about the AZ vaccine. She said based on what they know today:
- She would consider it safe to use for a normal healthy person, there is more chance of being killed in a car accident than dying from an AZ jab and getting a clot.
- They are however advising people with two particular types of clots to not have it at the moment
- Whilst my clot is not one of the two, because its an odd one, she is putting me in the same category and advising me not to have it for now.
- If I was in Europe, India or the US, the risk evaluation would be different given the community transmission rates and I would probably have it. Given our current community transmission situation, there is no urgency.
- In three months, they will know more and reevaluate.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 16, 2021, 11:09:10 pm
I heard an epidemiologist today state how crazy it is to suspend/cut any of the vaccines, at this stage in Europe vaccination rates have fallen by about 1 million per day, and COVID cases are now rising in many locations. He said it's expected that 10%(100K) of those 1 million now not getting vaccinated daily due to the cut will get COVID, and out of that shortfall group at least 5 will die and 3000 will get long COVID, while if they had vaccinated that 100K COVID cases none would get severe or long COVID, and only 1/2 a person per day gets a clotting issue.

30% of all COVID patients, on the full spectrum from asymptomatic to severe, will suffer from some form of clotting or low platelet count issue.

0.0005% of COVID vaccine recipients get a severe clot issue.

That is interesting based on the newest news. Today it's surfaced that the UK has an almost 50/50 strike rate for clotting from Adenovirus or mRNA vaccines. It's all been kept a bit quiet on the Moderna / Pfizer side of the debate, apparently Moderna(mRNA) has been under investigation in the US for several weeks and it's not been made public.

There is lots and lots of politics going on in all this.

I heard an epidemiologist state we wouldn't see a covid vaccine that works yet here we are less than a year later debating whether or not its worth having....

At the end of the day, its all a matter of perspective.   We are all guided by our biases, our personal beliefs, and most dangerously, a statistical analysis that seems to be made with biases in mind, and no real information.   Its amazing how they kept the blood clots and low platelet counts so quiet until the vaccine started yielding similar issues as an example of how little we are told.

Quite convenient for it to come up now isnt it?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 17, 2021, 11:25:06 am
I heard an epidemiologist state we wouldn't see a covid vaccine that works yet here we are less than a year later debating whether or not its worth having.... Yet they are still all greater > 98% effective!
At the end of the day, its all a matter of perspective.  We are all guided by our biases, our personal beliefs, and most dangerously, a statistical analysis that seems to be made with biases in mind, and no real information.  Its amazing how they kept the blood clots and low platelet counts so quiet until the vaccine started yielding similar issues as an example of how little we are told.

Quite convenient for it to come up now isnt it?
I think paranoia knows no bounds, and is a bed fellow of correlation.

btw., An epidemiologist is in effect a type of forensic statistician not necessarily a virologist or immunologist. The two seem to be conveniently and very wrongly interchanged in many public debates.

I notice nobody in the media or social media like to mention that the clotting rates in the vaccinated are still below background clotting levels, which ironically suggests all the vaccines prevent clots. That's something an epidemiologist can comment on, cherry anyone?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 17, 2021, 01:13:26 pm
I think paranoia knows no bounds, and is a bed fellow of correlation.

btw., An epidemiologist is in effect a type of forensic statistician not necessarily a virologist or immunologist. The two seem to be conveniently and very wrongly interchanged in many public debates.

I notice nobody in the media or social media like to mention that the clotting rates in the vaccinated are still below background clotting levels, which ironically suggests all the vaccines prevent clots. That's something an epidemiologist can comment on, cherry anyone?

Yeah nah not the point.

The point is that you can interchange the opinions from each one so therefore to assert yours is better than mine is what I'd call a logical fallousy.

My expert said middle of last year that no vaccine has been found for the sars family of viruses despite 12 years and a concerted effort to find one, and then wooshka.   7 months into a pandemic we have not 1, but 5 or even more options available.

Go argue with the experts rather than talking on a sports forum.  Find out why that opinion existed last year and how the science has disproven it.  I'll wait.  You seem to have better access.  Mine was a grape vine discussion.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 17, 2021, 02:51:20 pm
Yeah nah not the point.

The point is that you can interchange the opinions from each one so therefore to assert yours is better than mine is what I'd call a logical fallousy.

My expert said middle of last year that no vaccine has been found for the sars family of viruses despite 12 years and a concerted effort to find one, and then wooshka.  7 months into a pandemic we have not 1, but 5 or even more options available.
Firstly, there is a difference between an expert offering an opinion in  his area of expertise, versus commenting about some general issue like your associate.

Secondly, they are factually wrong about the vaccine history exposing a lack of knowledge. SARS-CoV(2003-2005) and MERS(2012) vaccines were in development, but back in 2015 the bureaucracy canned the spending to proceed to stage 2 and 3 trials when the spread of MERS diminished.

Of course being wrong about historical facts doesn't mean your associate was wrong about the chance of finding a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine.

The team developing it in Texas had been working on it since 2005, that is history not speculation or opinion.

Cross check facts, judge your associates opinion accordingly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 17, 2021, 03:51:26 pm
^^

Firstly, no difference in years developing a vaccine from 12 to 15 or even 20 makes me feel better about a vaccine going from all these stages through to production in 7 months.

If anything, it makes me think its all been a load of crap, and there is no better way for the governments of the world to save face than to latch onto the first vaccine passable.

Secondly, you can use a paraphrased quote of mine to discern nothing about the person's opinion whom I am quoting.  It literally is what I interpreted and pass on, therefore if I misquote him, its my lack of expertise on show, not his so to dismiss what I am saying based on that says more about you than him.

What that means for you is, you can assert what you wish, but until you test that question out on your experts end, you cant really make a determination either way, circling me back to my previous point:

For every 5 "experts" in favor of a vaccine, you are likely to find at least one who can form an opinion against it, and that's because there is no concrete answer here.  There is no magic bullet, its an anecdotal short term trial to see if this will help, because the statistics show that covid is only bad when its bad, and its not bad 100% of the time for 100% of people, therefore the studies need to contain a certain amount of assumptions built in (such as it will alleviate COVID symptoms in some strains but not all, and the cause of clots has only risen its head in media once the vaccine caused some and not one mention of blood clots came to the fore with all the media we have heard about it until now.

Before you go quoting experts, I believe these are the same type of experts that made the decision to introduce the cane toad to Australia.  It seemed like a good idea at the time, and the studies showed that they could help.  Right?



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 17, 2021, 04:11:43 pm
and the cause of clots has only risen its head in media once the vaccine caused some and not one mention of blood clots came to the fore with all the media we have heard about it until now.

Before you go quoting experts, I believe these are the same type of experts that made the decision to introduce the cane toad to Australia.  It seemed like a good idea at the time, and the studies showed that they could help.  Right?
Your confusing what is or isn't reported by the media or social media with was is or isn't discussed officially.

Clotting has been listed as significant symptom of SARS-CoV-2 from the very early days, it was one of the first severe unexplained symptoms listed by the original Wuhan whistle-blower.

It is not the experts fault that the media or social do not report everything officially reported in detail, and it's not the experts fault social media commentators rely on media or social media for facts.

Do you know anything about Cane toads, who introduced them and when? I suggest you investigate the Bureau of Sugar Research circa 1900. Hardly relevant to 2021 SARS-CoV-2!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 17, 2021, 05:22:01 pm
How many people get a flu shot every year?....not 90-95% of the population like whats required for Covid control, expecting 90% of punters to rock up every year for a Covid shot is wishful thinking especially with whats happening at the minute and all the negatives about clots, not being effective against some variants and other problems.
Unless the vaccines are a one off for a certain number of years I dont see it working and we will have to live with Covid in the community and continue safe practices. Also the Government are not going to keep stumping up the money for free vaccines, free doctors/nurses, vaccine hubs and storage facilities and will want the money back via increased medicare levies, taxes etc.
The vaccines need to be a one off shot that has an effective span in years not months, you cant be opening up borders based on the expectation 90% of the people will rock up for covid shots every year.
If you want to open up then the reality is you have Covid in the community and learn to live with it, the vaccine magic wand needs more research/testing before you can wave it and expect magical results. Been a great effort to get vaccines up to the level they are in 7-12 months but its not the panacea of cures that it was painted out to be and ScoMo looks looks like he knows it and has thrown in the towel.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on April 17, 2021, 06:24:11 pm
The new strains are more virulent and have higher mortality.  The current vaccines already have diminished effectiveness.  This is not getting better people.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 17, 2021, 07:19:46 pm
If you want to open up then the reality is you have Covid in the community and learn to live with it, the vaccine magic wand needs more research/testing before you can wave it and expect magical results.
It never stops @ElwoodBlues1‍ , it has to evolve like the virus.

The problem is the Influenza isn't as virulent at least for the current strains, so you only need a portion of the population inoculated to break the chain, COVID is far more virulent and deadly, so it needs a much higher percentage inoculated.

Long term it will be a mix of inoculation and treatment, it was always going to be that way just like any other virus, not everybody can be vaccinated regardless of which vaccine is used. The problem at the moment is the very best treatments are barely effective and also ridiculously expensive. Nobody is going to opt for the $10K+ treatments when they can issue $30 vaccines!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on April 17, 2021, 10:35:00 pm
The vaccines need to be a one off shot that has an effective span in years not months, you cant be opening up borders based on the expectation 90% of the people will rock up for covid shots every year.
If you want to open up then the reality is you have Covid in the community and learn to live with it, the vaccine magic wand needs more research/testing before you can wave it and expect magical results. Been a great effort to get vaccines up to the level they are in 7-12 months but its not the panacea of cures that it was painted out to be and ScoMo looks looks like he knows it and has thrown in the towel.

Aren’t you the bloke who keeps worrying about the poor herd members who get cut if we take the vaccine...?
And here you are pushing them to the frontline... 🤷🏼‍♂️
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 17, 2021, 11:26:41 pm
Aren’t you the bloke who keeps worrying about the poor herd members who get cut if we take the vaccine...?
And here you are pushing them to the frontline... 🤷🏼‍♂️
I'm the bloke who wants proven vaccines that have been tested properly before they are forced upon us and that are fully effective not partially effective.
I'm the bloke who wants the borders shut till we have all the above.
I'm the bloke who is pro vaccine but not pro using herd members as guinea pigs and I'm not pushing anyone. I'm just saying when a complete effective vaccine is available it needs to be a one dose shot that is good for years not months. I wouldn't push you or anyone else into what's on offer at the minute especially without a thorough analysis of your individual health status.
If your happy to test on the run and believe you will get 90% take up every year from the population  then good luck to you..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 18, 2021, 11:53:22 am
I'll repeat what I said about the young lady who passed away.  Diabetic and no doubt, high blood sugars. BAD mix
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 18, 2021, 12:07:34 pm
I'll repeat what I said about the young lady who passed away.  Diabetic and no doubt, high blood sugars. BAD mix
I agree but where was her medical advice if she is in a high risk group?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 18, 2021, 01:00:10 pm
I agree but where was her medical advice if she is in a high risk group?

They should have asked prior.  No certified and credentialed certificate, no jab.

And witnessing even that, a finger blood check on the spot to see how high she was running.  And a BP test. 

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 18, 2021, 04:16:14 pm
https://au.yahoo.com/finance/news/covid-cases-mv-aquagenie-051724598.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: sandsmere on April 18, 2021, 04:28:56 pm
Something is not adding-up about this ladies death to me.

I had my first jab 12 days ago and had to fill out a form with a lot of health questions, including diabetic stuff.

If diabetes is a big problem surely she shouldn't have had the jab. Most other illnesses were included too.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 18, 2021, 04:49:50 pm
@sandsmere ... diabetes (if well controlled levels are evident, much like someone without that condition, which by the way is indeed possible) is not an issue.  If it is uncontrolled with out of range blood sugars, that's when caution / stop is necessary.  Same rules apply to operations.  Surgeons won't touch you unless your last bloods are deemed acceptable.

All that to one side, they said she had underlying conditions (plural) but again, that's possible with diabetics, especially those that need insulin.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 18, 2021, 09:20:29 pm
Something is not adding-up about this ladies death to me.

I had my first jab 12 days ago and had to fill out a form with a lot of health questions, including diabetic stuff.

If diabetes is a big problem surely she shouldn't have had the jab. Most other illnesses were included too.
Are there different rules in different states, I know in Vic the consent forms are all locally produced?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 21, 2021, 11:55:17 am
All that to one side, they said she had underlying conditions (plural) but again, that's possible with diabetics, especially those that need insulin.
I can't help but worry people are not taking this seriously, they too quickly blamed AstraZeneca simply because they can and they wanted to, because it's the lazy way out of the curly situation, without accepting the complexity of the root causes.

Reminds me of when Italian media blamed Mattia from Unilever for the whole pandemic.

Quote
Queensland Health officials are on high-alert after a man was rushed to hospital with clots just days after receiving the Pfizer vaccine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on April 22, 2021, 08:35:23 am
This probably belongs in the Navy Andrew thread but there are reports of Health Minister Greg Hunt meeting with Essendon Football Club for advice on getting the vaccination roll out back on track.


 ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on April 22, 2021, 08:52:18 am
This probably belongs in the Navy Andrew thread but there are reports of Health Minister Greg Hunt meeting with Essendon Football Club for advice on getting the vaccination roll out back on track.


 ;)


I'm surprised it took this long for someone to make an Essendon joke. i was expecting them a lot sooner.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 22, 2021, 09:48:42 am
This probably belongs in the Navy Andrew thread but there are reports of Health Minister Greg Hunt meeting with Essendon Football Club for advice on getting the vaccination roll out back on track.

 ;)
I thought you were going to report that CheatsFC had offered to cover the states shortage of syringes, good public citizens that they are!

Aren't CheatsFC sponsored by Terumo?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 22, 2021, 09:52:15 am
Notice the Vic State Gov is now making noise on funding CSL to make mRNA, surprise, surprise. ::)

We'd discussed here that CSL was potentially milking the Federal AstraZeneca funds first, to get the pre-existing outdated kit upgraded and modernised, and that there would be further/new government investment required to kit up for mRNA.

Get what you want first, then what you really need next, I guess we were right!

The $50M is the tip of the iceberg, sorry for the cynicism.

btw., Do not confuse corporate greed with the vaccine efficacy, the scientists are genuine, the high level executives and bureaucrats not so much!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 22, 2021, 10:24:40 am
Notice the Vic State Gov is now making noise on funding CSL to make mRNA, surprise, surprise. ::)

We'd discussed here that CSL was potentially milking the Federal AstraZeneca funds first, to get the pre-existing outdated kit upgraded and modernised, and that there would be further/new government investment required to kit up for mRNA.

Get what you want first, then what you really need next, I guess we were right!

The $50M is the tip of the iceberg, sorry for the cynicism.

btw., Do not confuse corporate greed with the vaccine efficacy, the scientists are genuine, the high level executives and bureaucrats not so much!

Ive often wondered if this hasnt been one giant social engineering experiment.

Ive seen the following reactions which have always made me concerned:

1.  Its just a virus, treat it and move on.
2.  We can treat it with Remdesivir and Ivermectin.
3.  We need a vaccine, heres one that we want to administer but the public are reluctant lets give them a false one first like AZ.
4.  Manufacture genetic modificating ones like Pfizer and because of AZ shortfall, they will want Pfizer.

Interesting.

Ive seen various different modes of reaction from the public all craving something no one had ever heard of 18 months ago.

Without going into the debate regarding what the science shows, its very interesting social behaviour occurring.  I still believe the best answer is to wait and observe.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 22, 2021, 11:18:23 am
Ive seen the following reactions which have always made me concerned:

1.  Its just a virus, treat it and move on.
2.  We can treat it with Remdesivir and Ivermectin.
3.  We need a vaccine, heres one that we want to administer but the public are reluctant lets give them a false one first like AZ.
4.  Manufacture genetic modificating ones like Pfizer and because of AZ shortfall, they will want Pfizer.
Much of what you quote above is social media commentary, it's never come from health officials other than Trump and a few other 3rd world politicians.

Waiting to react ignores the massive risk of COVID that comes with doing nothing, the risk between using the vaccines now is trivial compared to risking a 3rd wave. Have look at 3rd wave parts of Europe and India now! Some of the new variants appear just as devastating for <30s as they are for >65s!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 22, 2021, 11:32:51 am
It is truly weird in Europe.  A month or so back, the UK peaks were 1000+ deaths a day.  They're now well below 100.  Poland were doing well, certainly better than France, German, Italy and Spain and hardly any deaths (comparatively) up to Oct 2020.  Now they've skyrocketed.  Stuffed if I know ........
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 22, 2021, 12:36:22 pm
https://au.yahoo.com/finance/news/worker-fired-for-refusing-vaccine-loses-appeal-015106881.html
There is an insight into what might happen if you refuse a vaccine of any sort.
If you have suffered with Herpes related conditions in the past you might want to think about the CoVid vaccines too......
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 22, 2021, 12:43:07 pm
Much of what you quote above is social media commentary, it's never come from health officials other than Trump and a few other 3rd world politicians.

Waiting to react ignores the massive risk of COVID that comes with doing nothing, the risk between using the vaccines now is trivial compared to risking a 3rd wave. Have look at 3rd wave parts of Europe and India now! Some of the new variants appear just as devastating for <30s as they are for >65s!

No, they are my own observations, and they are formed based on what I have heard bandied about.

Zinc and Remdesivir, Ivermectin being pushed by various politicians.

All of it, in demand by people who had never heard of the stuff before (Flyboy on these very forums).  Ive done some reading on both the drugs that are not available to public, and they are middling.  Side effects are very real and horrific, and effectiveness on treating covid unproven, but the social engineering to make people want it I find very intrigueing.

Note, I simply look at the psychology.  As for europe, as they come out of winter and back into summer, the graphs are simply following the current pattern. 

Sepetember will give us a lot more of an insight into whether the vaccine works at  all.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 22, 2021, 12:58:35 pm
If you have suffered with Herpes related conditions in the past you might want to think about the CoVid vaccines too......\
I haven't read that in any official channels, do you have a reference?

We need to be careful to delineate what might be genuine medical concerns with common scare tactics. Given how widespread herpes infections are in society you would have thought any connection to the vaccines would have been well and truly exposed by now. They say about 50% of the world population is exposed to herpes to some degree, that means 300 Million already vaccinated individuals have had some herpes exposure. This is where the strength of the numbers can potentially cut through the bullsh1t!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 22, 2021, 01:59:08 pm
I haven't read that in any official channels, do you have a reference?

We need to be careful to delineate what might be genuine medical concerns with common scare tactics. Given how widespread herpes infections are in society you would have thought any connection to the vaccines would have been well and truly exposed by now. They say about 50% of the world population is exposed to herpes to some degree, that means 300 Million already vaccinated individuals have had some herpes exposure. This is where the strength of the numbers can potentially cut through the bullsh1t!
Check your PM's
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 22, 2021, 01:59:37 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufEEwnVZJS0
The Bubble in trouble.....vaccinated worker with CoVid in NZ.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on April 22, 2021, 03:12:55 pm
Just jumped the queue and got my first AstraZeneca jab 😳

... and they didn’t ask about herpes!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 22, 2021, 03:20:24 pm
Just jumped the queue and got my first AstraZeneca jab 😳

... and they didn’t ask about herpes!
Smooth sailing @DJC‍ 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 22, 2021, 04:03:07 pm
Just jumped the queue and got my first AstraZeneca jab 😳

... and they didn’t ask about herpes!
That cold sore gave it away.... ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on April 22, 2021, 04:18:58 pm
Just jumped the queue and got my first AstraZeneca jab 😳

... and they didn’t ask about herpes!

👍
I'm still ok, one month on Mon until the 2nd one.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 22, 2021, 04:21:04 pm
I knew a bloke once who suffered shingles, related to herpes, it's not something you'd wish on anybody!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 22, 2021, 04:29:40 pm
I knew a bloke once who suffered shingles, related to herpes, it's not something you'd wish on anybody!
Painful on the body and dangerous when it affects your eyes....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 22, 2021, 04:45:12 pm
Painful on the body and dangerous when it affects your eyes....

Had it last year and it was sheer murder ... and not herpes related I hasten to add.  One box of antibiotics pills was $1100
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 22, 2021, 04:54:07 pm
Herpes-zoster, Varicella-zoster is part of a group of viruses called herpes viruses, which includes the viruses that cause cold sores and genital herpes. Also I believe Chickenpox is the same virus family. But there may be other ways to get shingles.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on April 22, 2021, 04:56:23 pm
Had a female friend in her early 30's who got shingles on her face and even on her eyelids.

Was very lucky that she still has her vision.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on April 22, 2021, 05:18:57 pm
I knew a bloke once who suffered shingles, related to herpes, it's not something you'd wish on anybody!

A colleague of mine used to get it from time to time, along with several other painful conditions.  She never complained and just took it in her stride.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 22, 2021, 05:37:03 pm
Had it last year and it was sheer murder ... and not herpes related I hasten to add.  One box of antibiotics pills was $1100
So much for free healthcare, thats scary for folk less well off and I'm sorry you had to suffer with the condition and ridiculous cost for the medication.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 22, 2021, 08:06:33 pm
I didn't follow medical advice to use soothing creams ... instead, loaded up on heat pads to bring it out.  It worked inside a week.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 22, 2021, 08:18:19 pm
Not many places you can get a sausage with onions in bread plus a vaccine jab, Wesfarmers have offered their Bunnings carparks as vaccine hubs I believe. No word on if the Government will take up the offer but they were used as testing hubs in some locations so its likely a few may get used, idea being its a more friendly environment to receive a jab as some punters  get uneasy at hospitals/medical clinics.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on April 22, 2021, 10:51:58 pm
Not many places you can get a sausage with onions in bread plus a vaccine jab, Wesfarmers have offered their Bunnings carparks as vaccine hubs I believe. No word on if the Government will take up the offer but they were used as testing hubs in some locations so its likely a few may get used, idea being its a more friendly environment to receive a jab as some punters  get uneasy at hospitals/medical clinics.

I had my jab at the Ford Factory in Geetroit.  It was incredibly well organised and scarily efficient ... and it looks more like an industrial plant than a hospital or clinic.  I am sure that there are many more similar idle facilities that could be used, and should be before we resort to Bunnings car parks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on April 23, 2021, 03:39:06 pm
I'm feeling a bit achy and fuzzy-headed today, which is as to be expected.

My daughter said that most of her colleagues had to take a day's sick leave after the jab.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 23, 2021, 03:40:07 pm
I had my jab at the Ford Factory in Geetroit.  It was incredibly well organised and scarily efficient ... and it looks more like an industrial plant than a hospital or clinic.  I am sure that there are many more similar idle facilities that could be used, and should be before we resort to Bunnings car parks.
 Did they make you stick around for a while after getting the jab?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on April 23, 2021, 04:06:07 pm
Did they make you stick around for a while after getting the jab?

Yes, you have to wait for 15 minutes and they check on you before you can leave.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 25, 2021, 01:07:54 pm
The Indians are doing pretty darn well with this....

But heck, too much egg on people's faces, let alone criminal negligence claims, if the powers that be in western nations were to roll over and say heck, we had a fix all along.....
(https://lymart.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/doh.gif)
Is this me being Schadenfreude? :(

Of course, he could be referring to American Indians! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on April 26, 2021, 09:24:15 am
The situation in India is tragic and a little terrifying.

When the health system is taxed beyond capacity, death rates will shoot up  :(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 26, 2021, 09:47:37 am
The situation in India is tragic and a little terrifying.

When the health system is taxed beyond capacity, death rates will shoot up  :(
It's scary as hell, a shot across the bow of every nation state not taking this situation seriously.

Further, the very last thing we need are nuclear powers damaged and desperate for political and economic survival.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on April 26, 2021, 11:26:48 am
It's scary as hell, a shot across the bow of every nation state not taking this situation seriously.

Further, the very last thing we need are nuclear powers damaged and desperate for political and economic survival.

What a lot of drivel.

Put up some data smart alec.

India's death rate  from CV19 is 140 per million.....

#119 in the ranking for most deaths per million....

The claim is 2k folk are dying from CV19 a day in India.

No mention of comorbidities of course....

Did you know, on average, circa 28,000 die EACH and EVERY day in India?

But heck, let's ramp up the MSM hysteria.....it was PNG's turn a month ago (with all of 10 deaths per million).

Now it's India's...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on April 26, 2021, 11:37:03 am
The US has responded poorly to the Indian crisis. Leaving aside the humanitarian aspects, geopolitical considerations should see the US exporting  a considerable proportion of its vaccine production to India, along with medical supplies.

The US is trying to stave off a challenge from China. Obama sought to solidify a bloc of Pacific nations united by the Trans-Pacific Partnership. By offering Asian countries economic incentives, those countries would have an economic reason to join a political union to resist China. But the dumbasses in the US were outraged it didn’t exploit those countries, using the economic power of the US to extract rents that were the privilege of colonial powers. Then Trump made this explicit with his America First agenda. That provided an opening for the Chinese Belt & Road program.

Fortunately, Xi has alienated neighbours with his preference for exercising hard rather than soft power. India had been trying to play both sides of the fence but has been angered by border skirmishes with the Chinese military. It had responded by organising naval exercises in its waters with US & Japanese forces. The Covid crisis in India presents a perfect opportunity to draw India further into a bloc resisting Chinese aggression.

And such an investment would hardly be a wasteful use of US resources when compared to the history of the US putting money into the pockets of dictators. It would be the right thing to do for humanitarian reasons and would benefit the US and the world in the mission to control Covid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 26, 2021, 01:07:58 pm
Covid aside, India and China hate each other intensely. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on April 26, 2021, 01:14:48 pm
India isn't exactly on my christmas card list either.  Going to India to get married, FFS,  really!?!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on April 26, 2021, 02:26:30 pm
Covid aside, India and China hate each other intensely. 
I’m not sure love and hate mean much when it comes to geopolitics. The Russia-Germany Non-aggression Pact was a shock given those 2 countries hated each other. Yes, no doubt both countries had their fingers crossed when it was signed and Hitler broke it when he wanted to, but it allowed them to divide up Poland and allowed Germany to take out France and almost Great Britain too. And then 2 obvious enemies, Russia and the US, became allies for the rest of the war.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 26, 2021, 03:12:28 pm
I’m not sure love and hate mean much when it comes to geopolitics. The Russia-Germany Non-aggression Pact was a shock given those 2 countries hated each other. Yes, no doubt both countries had their fingers crossed when it was signed and Hitler broke it when he wanted to, but it allowed them to divide up Poland and allowed Germany to take out France and almost Great Britain too. And then 2 obvious enemies, Russia and the US, became allies for the rest of the war.

All true, but reports from the border skirmishes between these two suggest they were particularly vicious.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on April 26, 2021, 03:55:58 pm
(https://lymart.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/doh.gif)
Is this me being Schadenfreude? :(

Of course, he could be referring to American Indians! :o


Oh look another wee lesson for LP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huEaH-boaoY
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on April 26, 2021, 04:22:21 pm
All true, but reports from the border skirmishes between these two suggest they were particularly vicious.  
True. That’s why it’s a good time for the US to lock India into a bloc. The Chinese are offering the Indians help to combat Covid; if the US doesn’t flood the zone, they will blow this opportunity.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on April 26, 2021, 04:27:04 pm
Wow, a pretty blonde. But is she an expert or an anti-vaxxer? Is she a virologist or a naturopath? Call me crazy, but you have to lead with some details about the expertise ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on April 26, 2021, 04:32:53 pm
Talking about expertise, the latest nonsense spilling from the mouth of Larry Kudlow shows why it’s reasonable to filter out those lacking in credentials. With Kudlow, his alleged credentials as an economic expert are undercut by the fact he’s a Fox News talking head and former Trump aide. In his latest rant, he claimed that Biden would soon force Americans to drink plant-based beer. Say it isn’t so, Larry!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 26, 2021, 09:05:31 pm
https://au.sports.yahoo.com/ipl-rajasthan-royals-andrew-tye-leave-back-to-australia-amid-india-covid-crisis-031802494.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 27, 2021, 07:58:07 am
Wow, a pretty blonde. But is she an expert or an anti-vaxxer? Is she a virologist or a naturopath? Call me crazy, but you have to lead with some details about the expertise ...
Like anybody with half a brain is going to spend the hour listening to a norbit with a barrow to push mangle language for fiscal benefit. ;D

They must be just burning bodies in India to keep away the frost, but wait, they have HCQ, they make it there by the tonne, cheaper by the dozen it seems, wtf! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 27, 2021, 10:23:36 am
First the EU wants AstraZeneca because it's at cost/cheaper, then they don't want it because they want a cut of the locally made Pfizer, next they want stop AstraZeneca being exported, then they pause/ban AstraZeneca because they say it's NBG.

Now they want to sue AstraZeneca for not rolling the vaccine out fast enough!

It's an EU political clown show!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 27, 2021, 11:01:57 am
Not hard to work out why people voted for Brexit, and not be part of the mess that is Brussels ....

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on April 27, 2021, 01:44:27 pm
Biden is saying the US will release its stockpile of 60 million doses of AZ to distribute amongst its allies. Mexico & Canada have previously received some but want more. But it looks like India might be the destination along with other medical supplies. That’ll be enough to vaccinate only 3% of Indians.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 28, 2021, 05:20:04 pm
Very sad Video on yahoo news of a son transporting his dead mother(CoVid) on a motor bike wedged in between himself and the son in law, no ambulance or other transport available. I didnt post the video as it might distress some but it just shows the state of the country and how bad things have got in terms of resources.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on April 28, 2021, 10:17:13 pm
Very sad Video on yahoo news of a son transporting his dead mother(CoVid) on a motor bike wedged in between himself and the son in law, no ambulance or other transport available. I didnt post the video as it might distress some but it just shows the state of the country and how bad things have got in terms of resources.

I think it also shows a resilience that is incomprehendable to those in developed countries except, perhaps, in extreme wartime. My experience of third world countries is that ambulances are the exception rather than the rule.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 04, 2021, 10:36:08 pm
I think it also shows a resilience that is incomprehendable to those in developed countries except, perhaps, in extreme wartime. My experience of third world countries is that ambulances are the exception rather than the rule.
India's private health system is very modern but the public system is a shambles and as you suggest Ambulances are in short supply although I did see a few in the major cities.
Ambulance system here isnt going that great either...no code yellow anymore and if you are deemed fit enough to travel by car etc after a medical episode they attend they will also refuse to take you to the ER and ask your family and friends to do the job.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 05, 2021, 07:55:33 am

Ambulance system here isnt going that great either...no code yellow anymore and if you are deemed fit enough to travel by car etc after a medical episode they attend they will also refuse to take you to the ER and ask your family and friends to do the job.
It's not the Ambulance system that is the problem, it's the hospitals.

The Ambos take you in and get stuck there waiting for a handover. A mate's missus got taken to Monash Medical Centre the other day from a GP office due to dizziness, the GP was worried she might be having a stroke, but when she got to Monash the hospital kept her on the stretcher for 11hrs with the Ambos staying there for 3hrs before the hospital took over. The hospital ward she ended up in was half empty! They gave her a CT san the 2nd day, then she spent another week in there waiting for an MRI and was discharged 24hrs after!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 05, 2021, 08:11:04 am
It's not the Ambulance system that is the problem, it's the hospitals.

The Ambos take you in and get stuck there waiting for a handover. A mate's missus got taken to Monash Medical Centre the other day from a GP office due to dizziness, the GP was worried she might be having a stroke, but when she got to Monash the hospital kept her on the stretcher for 11hrs with the Ambos staying there for 3hrs before the hospital took over. The hospital ward she ended up in was half empty! They gave her a CT san the 2nd day, then she spent another week in there waiting for an MRI and was discharged 24hrs after!
I have had to visit an ER a few times early this year. What I have seen is too many DH's there with silly, non urgent illness that could be dealt with by a GP or a medical clinic. I think the hospitals (at least the one I visited) were very poor at screening these people at the door and moving them on to better prioritise and cater for genuine ER patients.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 05, 2021, 08:13:44 am
I have had to visit an ER a few times early this year. What I have seen is too many DH's there with silly, non urgent illness that could dealt with by a GP or a medical clinic. I think the hospitals (at least the one I visited) were very poor at screening these people at the door and moving them on to better prioritise and cater for genuine ER patients.
In Vic a problem is Kennett closed too many mental health facilities, so every weekend the hospitals are over-loaded with people who have no real physical problem but need Psychiatric help.

Between that Kennett action and the left wing call for more pill testing the hospitals are overloaded with party drug ODs! Pill testing is nothing more than a "Smoking Doesn't Kill" Ad campaign for Es.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 05, 2021, 08:23:18 am
In Vic a problem is Kennett closed too many mental health facilities, so every weekend the hospitals are over-loaded with people who have no real physical problem but need Psychiatric help.

Between that Kennett action and the left wing call for more pill testing the hospitals are overloaded with party drug ODs! Pill testing is nothing more than a "Smoking Doesn't Kill" Ad campaign for Es.


For what its worth, on the occasions I went, the "ER cloggers" I saw didn't appear to be needing psych help, just normal people need to see a GP.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on May 05, 2021, 08:35:26 am
For what its worth, on the occasions I went, the "ER cloggers" I saw didn't appear to be needing psych help, just normal people need to see a GP.
Don’t wanna be $35 out of pocket now…
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on May 05, 2021, 09:12:28 am
This is not a simple discussion as it sounds.

There is a spectrum of behaviour that goes on.  Some of the ambulance drivers stick around, faffing about on their devices when they could be out the door.

Some of the emergency departments (rightly or wrongly) are not staffed enough to be filled, which means they have to remain until its possible to go.

Sometimes there is a queue of ambulances that have arrived (perhaps this is a point that could be better considered with a short handover, and that means freeing up 2 ambulances, but that is a difficult discussion and not as simple as it sounds).

Some of the times, the hospitals themselves are on bypass and are not accepting ambulances, which is why they end up going here there and everywhere.

In terms of filtering at the door, that is a tough ask.  The triage clerks and nurses aren't there to necessarily determine if they should be there, but rather what category of patient we are dealing with.

GP's are very hard to get into at the moment.  A few weeks ago, I was unwell on a Friday.  Couldnt get an appointment with a GP on the same day I was calling around, and the weekends are even harder because they dont all operate.  I ended up making an appointment for monday (which I cancelled) because my symptoms were flu like, I went and got a covid test (negative) and ended up cancelling my monday appointment because I wasn't feeling up to it.

Im not saying I would have gone to the hospital on Friday, but I can understand why unwell people might take themselves to hospital int he event of not being able to see a GP.

The current climate is making things very difficult for a lot of people.

Its a tough gig.  Our community has grown by a significant amount over the last 20 years.  I would wager our hospitals are not growing at the same rate, and that we are seeing more people needing to attend because the bugs are getting harder to get over which is why they dont give out antibiotics so much these days.

Health care is tricky.  Most of the reasons why things dont move has more to do with liability, than anything to do with best practise, and litigation has made things a bit more difficult than it needs to be.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 05, 2021, 12:12:30 pm
Code Yellow is for bypass on Hospitals, my new info is that it has been scrapped and that the ambulance officers will take you to the closest ER regardless of how many patients are waiting there.
If you have private insurance dont muck around with the public ER's...If In Melbourne go the the Cabrini, Knox Private ER' s and the like...yep it will cost you around $300 to be seen but you will get immediate attention and access to a specialist if required much quicker.
We are now little America healthcare wise and you need Private Insurance, if you are forced into the public system  then go to the Royal Womens if you are female,  or the Austin in Heidelberg ....If I lived in the West I would avoid Sunshine Hospital and try an inner Hospital like Royal Melbourne or John Fawkner which is private.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 05, 2021, 12:19:18 pm

If you have private insurance dont muck around with the public ER's...If In Melbourne go the the Cabrini, Knox Private ER' s and the like...yep it will cost you around $300 to be seen but you will get immediate attention and access to a specialist if required much quicker.
Just be careful if you have recently renewed or moved insurer. Coming out of COVID Insurers have been under the pump not to increase premiums as much as they would like to, so they have been very quietly revising the terms of policies so that many procedures that were previously covered in Private Hospital are now only covered in Public Hospitals(Cheaper). It's devious as hell because people think they are still paying for the same product, Scotty from Marketing is letting them get away with murder so they don't close up shop smashing the public health system!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 05, 2021, 12:20:44 pm
Health care is tricky.  Most of the reasons why things dont move has more to do with liability, than anything to do with best practise, and litigation has made things a bit more difficult than it needs to be.
Nice insight @Thryleon‍ 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on May 05, 2021, 12:40:17 pm
Another take on the Indian 'disaster'.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/india-covid-need-scientific-integrity-not-sensationalism/5744258
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 05, 2021, 01:22:21 pm
Another take on the Indian 'disaster'.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/india-covid-need-scientific-integrity-not-sensationalism/5744258
The articles confuses cause and effect, whether that is deliberate or not I'll leave to the reader.

For example they claim people are dying because "Hospitals are overloaded" in a poor health system, not because of COVID! The truth is the phrase "The Hospitals are overloaded" is a contraction of "The hospitals are Overloaded with COVID patients!" :o

And in context the major comments come from Tengra who is an anti-establishment anarchist.

The cheapest fastest solution for India's 1B plus citizens is vaccination.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on May 05, 2021, 02:01:49 pm
A rational assessment of India's COVID crisis:

Quote
INDIA’S MOUNTAIN of new covid-19 infections is like none other in the course of the pandemic. On April 30th the daily tally of new cases surpassed 400,000, making the country’s current caseload far and away the heaviest yet (the next-biggest outside India was America’s 300,000 new cases recorded on January 2nd). Even that terrible figure is sure to be an underestimate. The share of Indians testing positive for covid-19 is now 23.5%; if a greater proportion of India’s population of 1.4bn were tested, no doubt millions of new cases would be detected. Compared with the scale of South Asia’s first wave, which peaked in September, the second is shocking. South America, another region with a surging caseload, is recording 60% more cases today than at the peak of the first wave. South Asia is logging four times as many, and with hardly a sign of slowing (see chart).

Deaths are now rising rapidly, too. With nearly 3,700 on May 1st, South Asia is logging deaths at the pace the European Union reached during its calamitous peaks of April and November 2020 (see chart). This tally, too, is almost certainly an underestimate. India’s data are collected according to different standards in different places, sometimes apparently with an eye to downplaying the crisis. Some of the country’s most populous states, such as Gujarat with its 64m people or Uttar Pradesh with its 238m, are attributing only tiny fractions of their current excess deaths to covid-19. Simple observation suggests that the true death toll is higher than the official figures suggest. On one day two weeks ago 78 covid deaths were recorded in seven Gujarati cities. On the same day in the same cities 689 funerals were performed under protocols reserved for coronavirus victims.
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/05/03/indias-covid-19-crisis-has-spiralled-out-of-control


And an interesting analyses of how and why deaths due to COVID are understated, with hubris, inadequate and overwhelmed health and reporting systems, and political expediency all playing a part:

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/04/30/992451165/india-is-counting-thousands-of-daily-covid-deaths-how-many-is-it-missing


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 05, 2021, 02:18:30 pm
Code Yellow is for bypass on Hospitals, my new info is that it has been scrapped and that the ambulance officers will take you to the closest ER regardless of how many patients are waiting there.
If you have private insurance dont muck around with the public ER's...If In Melbourne go the the Cabrini, Knox Private ER' s and the like...yep it will cost you around $300 to be seen but you will get immediate attention and access to a specialist if required much quicker.
We are now little America healthcare wise and you need Private Insurance, if you are forced into the public system  then go to the Royal Womens if you are female,  or the Austin in Heidelberg ....If I lived in the West I would avoid Sunshine Hospital and try an inner Hospital like Royal Melbourne or John Fawkner which is private.


I went to the Austin and apart from a few goons in the ER who had nothing wrong with them, the service and attention was outstanding, I have zero bad to say about the Austin (Main, ONJ and Repat).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on May 05, 2021, 02:23:03 pm
https://www.medindia.net/patients/calculators/pop_clock.asp

Worth a look
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 05, 2021, 03:49:53 pm
I went to the Austin and apart from a few goons in the ER who had nothing wrong with them, the service and attention was outstanding, I have zero bad to say about the Austin (Main, ONJ and Repat).
The Austin is the best of the public system hospitals if you are Melbourne based IMHO, my daughter worked there for a while in orthopedics as a Nurse and she said it was the best that she had worked in. We had a mature part time Nurse at my last employer and she also worked in the ER at Austin part time and said same, one of the few publics that wont kick you out early unless you are fully recovered and right to go.
Its not a given that Private hospitals will treat you any better staff wise but they want to make a dollar out of you therefore will initiate diagnosis/treatment earlier and of course are happy to let you occupy a bed and then give you generous amounts of rehab all in the name of being to able rack up a healthy bill on your insurance.
The worst I have seen is Sunshine Hospital, the Government need to build another public hospital out West and resource it properly, overcrowded, too many rookie staff and the experienced staff are just overworked to the max.
Its a growth area out West and the people deserve better than what they are getting. I'd bang on about the lack of police resources as well but this isnt the thread for it..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 05, 2021, 05:30:49 pm
https://www.medindia.net/patients/calculators/pop_clock.asp

Worth a look
Fark me a person born every 2 seconds!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on May 05, 2021, 05:50:51 pm
The Austin is the best of the public system hospitals if you are Melbourne based IMHO, my daughter worked there for a while in orthopedics as a Nurse and she said it was the best that she had worked in. We had a mature part time Nurse at my last employer and she also worked in the ER at Austin part time and said same, one of the few publics that wont kick you out early unless you are fully recovered and right to go.
Its not a given that Private hospitals will treat you any better staff wise but they want to make a dollar out of you therefore will initiate diagnosis/treatment earlier and of course are happy to let you occupy a bed and then give you generous amounts of rehab all in the name of being to able rack up a healthy bill on your insurance.
The worst I have seen is Sunshine Hospital, the Government need to build another public hospital out West and resource it properly, overcrowded, too many rookie staff and the experienced staff are just overworked to the max.
Its a growth area out West and the people deserve better than what they are getting. I'd bang on about the lack of police resources as well but this isnt the thread for it..


They are building Melbournes biggest hospital in Footscray unless I am mistaken.  Will likely link up with VUT to be and education hospital as well.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 05, 2021, 05:53:00 pm
Fark me a person born every 2 seconds!
Yep thats scary and more scary when you see how those kids end up, seen Hindi kids washing in water direct from a sewage drain and their mothers washing their clothes in the same water further down the line.
Then you look at where they live, the best building in the villages is always the little brick shrine where they worship at.
You look at the Chinese one child policy and how cruelly they enforce it but thats the only way for India.
When I was young I remember reading how the Indian Government tried to encourage the use of condoms and offered vasectomy's free in these sterilization camps to encourage the men they gave them a free transistor radio.
Ended up with a lot of sick Indians, mutilations and zero return in terms of birth control....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 05, 2021, 06:07:49 pm
They are building Melbournes biggest hospital in Footscray unless I am mistaken.  Will likely link up with VUT to be and education hospital as well.


They need it but they need one closer to the growth areas like out in Werribee, Caroline Springs etc where young families are....I was horrified when I saw how one of my kids was treated. Nurses unable to setup a drip correctly for antibiotics, couldnt work out the maths and I'm talking RN's not enrolled Div 2's. The patient my daughter had to tell them what to do....lack of infection control, she ended up with an infection in her hand after a dog bite after being left for a day without proper antibiotic treatment.
The plastics team stuffing up her operation on her hand, staff running around with exposed hypodermics, we were fortunate one of her friends was working as a midwife there and was able to help and get her properly treated.
They also need to scrap this idea of offering residency for trainee overseas nurses, half of them dont care about the job and just want to live In Australia and see this as a way of being able to stay here and they get out of nursing as soon as they can.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 06, 2021, 09:49:29 am
Interesting, when you consider the science there are lots of questions why only AstraZeneca and not J&J, Pfizer or Moderna are being questioned, maybe the reason is not scientific at all.
Quote
The Press Council considered whether its Standards of Practice were breached by an article published by the Herald Sun online on 10 December 2020 headed “Allergy warning over Pfizer COVID vaccine”.

The article reported “People who suffer severe allergic reactions have been advised by UK regulators not to take the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine after two British nurses who received the jab suffered allergic reactions.” The article went on to report, under the sub headline “SIX PEOPLE DIED DURING PFIZER TRIAL”, that “Six people that took part in the Pfizer-BioNtech COVID-19 vaccine clinical trial died – including four who had received a placebo shot but the vaccine was unlikely to be the cause of their death.”
That's the compulsory publication of a Press Council finding, while it doesn't say where the complaint come from , it's not hard to imagine.

Maybe being litigious helps, suppress the debate rather than have it!

In a media heavily driven by legal concerns, it can be easy to confuse the absence of negative reports with better efficacy and safety, but reality might be nothing of the sort.

Which organisation would you trust, the one that publicly publishes it's science and then debates and defends it in the public sphere, or the one that publishes nothing and uses it's legal muscle to remove debate from the public domain?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on May 06, 2021, 10:35:13 am
Interesting, when you consider the science there are lots of questions why only AstraZeneca and not J&J, Pfizer or Moderna are being questioned, maybe the reason is not scientific at all.That's the compulsory publication of a Press Council finding, while it doesn't say where the complaint come from , it's not hard to imagine.

Maybe being litigious helps, suppress the debate rather than have it!

In a media heavily driven by legal concerns, it can be easy to confuse the absence of negative reports with better efficacy and safety, but reality might be nothing of the sort.

Which organisation would you trust, the one that publicly publishes it's science and then debates and defends it in the public sphere, or the one that publishes nothing and uses it's legal muscle to remove debate from the public domain?

I cant speak for whats going on globally, but from the brief snippets I heard on SBS news earlier this week, Moderna and J&J are now in the gun for similar blood clot issues.

Even Sputnik is being analysed.

Its only a matter of time until Pfizer comes under the gun as well.




Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 06, 2021, 11:27:13 am
I cant speak for whats going on globally, but from the brief snippets I heard on SBS news earlier this week, Moderna and J&J are now in the gun for similar blood clot issues.

Even Sputnik is being analysed.

Its only a matter of time until Pfizer comes under the gun as well.
The irony is I don't think any of it is warranted. The reason is because I've read the background case rate should be 5 to 8 cases per million, but in vaccinated people the case rate is 3 to 5 cases per million. It actually seems the vaccines prevent 2 to 3 cases per million even though they are linked with others.

By staying mum and letting AstraZeneca wear the heat for purely commercial or political reasons, the other providers have now shot themselves in the foot because they won't get the public perception back in the bottle.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 06, 2021, 11:53:39 am
I cant speak for whats going on globally, but from the brief snippets I heard on SBS news earlier this week, Moderna and J&J are now in the gun for similar blood clot issues.

Even Sputnik is being analysed.

Its only a matter of time until Pfizer comes under the gun as well.





Bit of third party gossip, maybe those with CSL connections might be able to confirm but I was told that the Astraz has poor results
in terms of the new variants and is being rejigged so those wanting the Astraz would be better waiting till the end of the year/new year.That info is via a CSL employee....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on May 06, 2021, 12:46:07 pm
Bit of third party gossip, maybe those with CSL connections might be able to confirm but I was told that the Astraz has poor results
in terms of the new variants and is being rejigged so those wanting the Astraz would be better waiting till the end of the year/new year.That info is via a CSL employee....

Hardly surprising.

I always thought we were being sold a magic bullet fix that is too good to be true.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 06, 2021, 12:47:49 pm
Hardly surprising.

I always thought we were being sold a magic bullet fix that is too good to be true.
Perhaps by politicians but not scientists.

The scientists have always said the vaccines will be like the Influenza vaccine, and have been formulated so they can be regularly tweaked. The concern is how often and how fast!

I won't comment on the behaviour of the corporates, their motive is self-evident.

PS; The clotting being investigated is commonly associated with Herparin blood thinners, the claim is the vaccines mimic Heparin in causing blood clots. But the problem is the numbers do not stack up, in either counts or categories. For example women are no longer thought to be more at risk, because the women are more likely than men to get this type of clot anyway even if they got a placebo.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on May 21, 2021, 06:58:48 pm
https://theconversation.com/im-over-50-and-hesitant-about-the-astrazeneca-covid-vaccine-should-i-wait-for-pfizer-161283

This article made a lot of sense IMO, gave a good perspective and explained the situation well.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 21, 2021, 11:02:12 pm
https://theconversation.com/im-over-50-and-hesitant-about-the-astrazeneca-covid-vaccine-should-i-wait-for-pfizer-161283

This article made a lot of sense IMO, gave a good perspective and explained the situation well.
I'd question the effectiveness of the present Astraz vs the variants , its one thing talking about Blood Clots and the risks but
its not proven against the variants at all and the " its better than nothing approach" doesnt encourage people to have a vaccine that is already under the microscope.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on May 22, 2021, 10:24:18 am
This is an ongoing study following the AstraZeneca rollout in the UK.  It’s not conclusive but it suggests that AstraZeneca is very effective.

Quote
Two doses of the Oxford/AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine may be around 85% to 90% effective against symptomatic disease, Public Health England (PHE) said on Thursday, while cautioning that it did not yet have enough data to be conclusive.

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/uk-analysis-finds-two-doses-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-85-90-effective-2021-05-20/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 22, 2021, 11:07:19 am
I'd question the effectiveness of the present Astraz vs the variants , its one thing talking about Blood Clots and the risks but
its not proven against the variants at all and the " its better than nothing approach" doesnt encourage people to have a vaccine that is already under the microscope.
I think this is an old assertion that is being rehashed in the anti-AstraZeneca media. I think it was a Canadian group that debugged those claims by donating hundreds of thousands of doses to 3rd World locations then collected the efficacy data against all variants.

The last summary I heard was that it's proven equally effective as Pfizer, J&J and Moderna against the variants in Sth America and Sth Africa.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on May 22, 2021, 11:25:20 am
This is an ongoing study following the AstraZeneca rollout in the UK.  It’s not conclusive but it suggests that AstraZeneca is very effective.


What does "effective" mean? How is it assessed? What are the benchmarks, the baselines?

On adverse events in the UK?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/987647/Coronavirus_vaccine_-_summary_of_Yellow_Card_reporting_12.05.21.pdf

Quote
As of 12 May 2021, for the UK, 58,065 Yellow Cards have been reported for the Pfizer/BioNTech
vaccine, 175,057 have been reported for the COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca, 1,462 for the
COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna and 639 have been reported where the brand of the vaccine was not
specified.

So, given 23.9 million doses, and 175k adverse events for the AZ vaccine, that is 73 adverse events for every 10000 jabs.

Further:

Quote
The MHRA has received 374 UK reports of suspected ADRs to the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine in
which the patient died shortly after vaccination, 786 reports for the COVID-19 Vaccine
AstraZeneca,
4 for the COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna and 16 where the brand of vaccine was
unspecified.

786 deaths shortly after the AZ jab,

Good luck.

And for what - a virus very much like its predecessor and extremely treatable EARLY - Ivermectin or HCQ protocols (and a few others to boot).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7410805/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxmhvZ6eEI4&t=2s

https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/hearings/early-outpatient-treatment-an-essential-part-of-a-covid-19-solution
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 22, 2021, 05:52:52 pm
And for what - a virus very much like its predecessor and extremely treatable EARLY - Ivermectin or HCQ protocols (and a few others to boot).
Now beyond doubt proven completely useless against COVID.

However, Ivermectin / HCG combination is more likely to kill the recipient due to a very specific form of heart arrhythmia that happens in about 10x as many patients as can be expected to get a severe AstraZeneca side effect. An effect being reported in several combinations that combine HCQ with either an antiviral or antibiotic.

What officially is a Yellow Card?
Quote
"The Yellow Card scheme is a mechanism by which anybody can voluntarily report any suspected adverse reactions or side effects to the vaccine. It is very important to note that a Yellow Card report does not necessarily mean the vaccine caused that reaction or event."

 


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on May 22, 2021, 05:59:10 pm
No beyond doubt proven completely useless against COVID.

But Ivermectin / HCG combination is more likely to kill the recipient due to a very specific form of heart arrhythmia that happens in about 10x as many patients as can be expected to get a severe AstraZeneca side effect. An effect being reported in several combinations that combine HCQ with either an antiviral or antibiotic.

you are clueless.

No one has suggested a combination (that comments exceeds stupidity).

10x comment is an abject lie - unsupported by anything but your hubris.

Of course, any medication can be bad for some people with certain existing pre conditions.

That's why doctors do what doctors do....  :-X

https://c19ivermectin.com/

The studies are in, you're off the pace - again.

If you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk.

Have a great evening LP.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 22, 2021, 06:02:51 pm
you are clueless.

No one has suggested a combination (that comments exceeds stupidity).

10x comment is an abject lie - unsupported by anything but your hubris.

Of course, any medication can be bad for some people with certain existing pre conditions.

That's why doctors do what doctors do....  :-X

https://c19ivermectin.com/

The studies are in, you're off the pace - again.

If you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk.

Have a great evening LP.
Ironic that you accuse me of posting redundant info, given what you have offered has now been disproved by multiple large scale studies across several different countries. So I doubt you can rain on anything with fake facts and worthless outdated claims.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on May 22, 2021, 06:10:08 pm
Ironic that you accuse me of posting redundant info, given what you have offered has now been disproved by multiple large scale studies across several different countries. So I doubt you can rain on anything with fake facts and worthless outdated claims.


Put them up - going to cite the Recovery Study?

You're full of hot air.

two tips:

1. don't give near lethal dosages to patients

2. don't give an anti viral to patients once full viral replication has already occurred.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 22, 2021, 08:25:04 pm
Put them up - going to cite the Recovery Study?

You're full of hot air.

two tips:

1. don't give near lethal dosages to patients

2. don't give an anti viral to patients once full viral replication has already occurred.
Your assertions aren't based in any truth, HCQ has been evaluated as both a prophylactic and as a treatment and been found exactly worthless on it's own on both counts. It general results are so poor some specialists are questioning how it was ever approved in the first place!

Patients who are ill with COVID develop secondary infections, some already have infections when they contract COVID, not giving them combinatory medications isn't an option. It just needs to be a safe combination and HCQ isn't part of it.

Ironically, the lethal side-effects of HCQ in combination with other medicines was known long before COVID, but ignored by it's COVID boosters. If it offered some real world benefit it might still be offered just as is a vaccine that can have rare deadly side-effects, but HCQ isn't going to be offered by other than illegal pushers of dodgy internet dealings. Brazil and India say hello!

This HCQ stuff, you bang on about it so much I think you protest a bit too much, it isn't another bet you got wrong is it, do you have a garage full?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on May 22, 2021, 09:34:17 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/may/22/world-expert-in-scientific-misconduct-faces-legal-action-for-challenging-integrity-of-hydroxychloroquine-study
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 22, 2021, 09:41:14 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/may/22/world-expert-in-scientific-misconduct-faces-legal-action-for-challenging-integrity-of-hydroxychloroquine-study
Dr Didier Raoult cases seems vexatious, he was one of the primary boosters for HCQ in Europe and has gone hard at many who call out the rather thin evidence and questionable methods used to derive his conclusions.

Not satisfied to profit from his claims, He seems to have rallied a fanatical US supporter base to threaten whistle-blowers all around the globe. In some cases his group of supporters has been caught publishing the whistle-blower's private address as an intimidation, followed up with the obligatory death threats.

There is some nice coverage of this recently in The Science Friction podcast.
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/sciencefriction/troublemakers-covid-science-research-integrity/13344772
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on May 22, 2021, 09:45:19 pm
Dr Didier Raoult cases is vexatious, he was the primary booster for HCQ in Europe and has gone hard at anyone who calls out the rather thin evidence and questionable methods used to come to his conclusions.

Not satisfied to profit from his claims, he's rallied a fanatical US supporter base to threaten whistle-blowers all around the globe. In some cases his group of supporters has been caught publishing the whistle-blower's private address as an intimidation, followed up with the obligatory death threats.

There is some nice coverage of this recently in The Science Friction podcast.
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/sciencefriction/troublemakers-covid-science-research-integrity/13344772

It's pretty seedy, litigious behaviour from a doctor / scientist. The sort of behaviour that should make one feel immediately uncomfortable and suspicious
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 22, 2021, 09:48:15 pm
It's pretty seedy, litigious behaviour from a doctor / scientist. The sort of behaviour that should make one feel immediately uncomfortable and suspicious
The podcast is well worth listening to, it seems there may be a prior history of this behaviour that should have been a warning, but Raoult's claims were championed by Trump and Bolsonaro.

The podcast is well worth a listen, the links below are even more valuable if you are so inclined.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on May 22, 2021, 09:50:03 pm
The podcast is well worth listening to, it seems there may be a prior history of this behaviour that should have been a warning, but Raoult's claims were championed by Trump and Bolsonaro.

The podcast is well worth a listen, the links below are even more valuable if you are so inclined.

Thanks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on May 23, 2021, 12:12:53 am
Just for clarity, 175,057 "yellow card" cases have been reported for the COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca in the UK after 23.9M first doses and 9.0M second doses.  Yellow card reports are not necessarily side effects of the vaccine but may be episodes that would have occurred regardless of vaccination. If all of those yellow card cases were related to vaccination, they would represent 0.53% of vaccinations.

Yellow card cases following AstraZeneca vaccination include injection-site tenderness, injection-site pain, headache, fatigue, myalgia, malaise, pyrexia (fever), chills, arthralgia, and nausea. The majority of adverse reactions were mild to moderate in severity and usually resolved within a few days of vaccination (my experience was injection-site tenderness, old aches and pains returning and malaise for a day - I often suffer from malaise, particularly after my footy team loses.).

Given that 127,500 people have died in the UK within 28 days of a positive COVID-19 test, you can see why folk are more than happy to have any of the vaccines.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: sandsmere on May 23, 2021, 09:24:36 am
We have both had the first AstreZeneca shot with no problems at all.

The time is coming that you wont be allowed on aircraft, buses and in most shops if you can't produce
proof of having the needles.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 23, 2021, 01:52:47 pm
An oldy but a goody!

(https://external.fmel5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQH30Iadzgr_tUHe&w=584&h=330&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FEys4ioDXMAgQRSQ%3Fformat%3Djpg%26name%3Dmedium&ccb=3-5&_nc_hash=AQH22HJ3cmjlomLT)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on May 23, 2021, 05:12:03 pm
Compare Astra with Pfizer. You know like for like!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 23, 2021, 05:47:28 pm
Compare Astra with Pfizer. You know like for like!
What do you want to see, what will make you accept the performance of the vaccines relative to the risk of COVID?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 23, 2021, 06:08:09 pm
As of the 11th May 2021 here is the official advice to GPs from the Royal Australian College of GPs.
Quote
A pre-print study recently uploaded to medRxiv (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.22.21255913v1.full), has found that real-world data suggest both Pfizer and AstraZeneca vaccines are equally effective, with no real difference in the level of protection offered.

The research involved 373,402 participants, and saw 1,610,562 polymerase chain reaction (PCR) tests conducted between 1 December and 3 April.

The results revealed the odds of being infected after two doses of either vaccine were reduced by 70% compared to unvaccinated individuals without evidence of prior infection, with no evidence that the benefits varied between the AstraZeneca and Pfizer vaccines.

With the two vaccines currently in circulation in Australia, Dr Kylie Quinn, Group Head and Research Fellow at RMIT’s School of Health and Biomedical Science, told newsGP the results are good news.
373,402 people tested multiple times is a significant study, it's not rumour or innuendo based on the odd person here or there.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 23, 2021, 06:08:40 pm
https://kreately.in/covid-19-vaccines-are-creating-variants-explains-nobel-prize-winner-french-virologist-luc-montagnier/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 23, 2021, 06:11:19 pm
https://kreately.in/covid-19-vaccines-are-creating-variants-explains-nobel-prize-winner-french-virologist-luc-montagnier/
This is a known consequence of any vaccine not just COVID vaccines, but it is also the natural behaviour of a virus in the wild when it is uncontrolled.

It is often used by anti-vaxxers as a argument against vaccines, but it's actually the strongest argument for compulsory vaccination because it's the unvaccinated individuals that deliver the greatest risk to the wider community.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on May 23, 2021, 06:32:56 pm
What do you want to see, what will make you accept the performance of the vaccines relative to the risk of COVID?

You have 2 vaccines. One has more dangerous side effects than the other. You comparing Astra to smoking is just deflecting.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on May 23, 2021, 06:44:46 pm
I think in the fullness of time we will have a better picture as to the relative risks / merits of the Pfizer and AstraZ vaccines. Certainly the situation on all fronts is changing, sometimes quite quickly. For now, the Pfizer is thought of as "better" because there are a small number of cases concerning the AstraZ, chiefly of course centred around blood clotting. But the numbers need to be understood and need to be put into a human context. In numerical, mathematical terms, a 0.0004% chance is worse than 0% chance, but the difference is so small that in real world usage the risks are pretty much the same IMO. There also seem to be issues around the accuracy and completeness of record keeping and data collection, which will hopefully improve in the future.

If you're starving and walking down the road, you don't walk past 1000 2 Michelin star restaurants in the hope of finding a 3 Michelin star, even though the latter may be "better." So whilst we may all prefer the Pfizer (for peace of mind etc.) the difference between the two is not nearly as big as is made out to be, and IMO is being blown out of all proportion.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 23, 2021, 06:52:55 pm
I think in the fullness of time we will have a better picture as to the relative risks / merits of the Pfizer and AstraZ vaccines. Certainly the situation on all fronts is changing, sometimes quite quickly. For now, the Pfizer is thought of as "better" because there are a small number of cases concerning the AstraZ, chiefly of course centred around blood clotting. But the numbers need to be understood and need to be put into a human context. In numerical, mathematical terms, a 0.0004% chance is worse than 0% chance, but the difference is so small that in real world usage the risks are pretty much the same IMO. There also seem to be issues around the accuracy and completeness of record keeping and data collection, which will hopefully improve in the future.

If you're starving and walking down the road, you don't walk past 1000 2 Michelin star restaurants in the hope of finding a 3 Michelin star, even though the latter may be "better." So whilst we may all prefer the Pfizer (for peace of mind etc.) the difference between the two is not nearly as big as is made out to be, and IMO is being blown out of all proportion.
What ever is the latest vaccine off the production line should be the greatest, I'll be interested to see how the Novavax goes..
https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2021-04-14/novavax-covid-vaccine-when-australia-gets-it-efficacy-rate/100064694
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on May 23, 2021, 06:58:15 pm
What ever is the latest vaccine off the production line should be the greatest, I'll be interested to see how the Novavax goes..
https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2021-04-14/novavax-covid-vaccine-when-australia-gets-it-efficacy-rate/100064694

I'm hardly an expert, but that sounds like the traditional way of making a vaccine. Basically a weak strain of the virus in question ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 23, 2021, 07:43:51 pm
You have 2 vaccines. One has more dangerous side effects than the other. You comparing Astra to smoking is just deflecting.
Comparing vaccines side effect risks to other types of daily risk is very valid, it gives people a common ground perspective.

The media is saying one is more dangerous than the other, the politicians obey public opinion and act based on politics and polls.

The truth is the scientific studies have shown them to be equivalent in all aspects, but you choose to believe the media / social media.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 23, 2021, 07:50:13 pm
I'm hardly an expert, but that sounds like the traditional way of making a vaccine. Basically a weak strain of the virus in question ?
Novavax, AstraZeneca and J&J are basically made by the same method.

They deliberately infect a vector of some sort and then collect the proteins needed to form the vaccine, in the Novavax case they use a virus and moths.

In the case of the virus vectors, AstraZeneca and J&J use Adenovirus, Novavax use Baculovirus.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on May 23, 2021, 07:54:20 pm
Novavax, AstraZeneca and J&J are basically made by the same method.

They deliberately infect a vector of some sort and then collect the proteins needed to form the vaccine, in the Novavax case they use a virus and moths.

In the case of the virus vectors, AstraZeneca and J&J use Adenovirus, Novavax use Baculovirus.

Thanks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on May 23, 2021, 08:08:36 pm
Comparing vaccines side effect risks to other types of daily risk is very valid, it gives people a common ground perspective.

The media is saying one is more dangerous than the other, the politicians obey public opinion and act based on politics and polls.

The truth is the scientific studies have shown them to be equivalent in all aspects, but you choose to believe the media / social media.

I believe the experts advising the governments in Europe and now here in Australia.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 23, 2021, 08:11:04 pm
I believe the experts advising the governments in Europe and now here in Australia.
What I posted about above in reply #2807 (https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=4922.msg334920#msg334920) is the experts advising Australian GPs the latest science and you don't accept it, so what you have written quoted above in bold is not true.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on May 23, 2021, 10:18:29 pm
AstraZeneca vs Moderna vs Pfizer vs Johnson and Johnson:

Quote
“The best vaccine is the one that’s offered the day you go in for your appointment,” says Andrew Thomas, M.D., chief clinical officer at The Ohio State University Wexner Medical Center. “All of the [available] vaccines are incredibly effective. They’re all safe.”

https://www.prevention.com/health/a35118263/astrazeneca-vs-pfizer-vs-moderna-covid-19-vaccine/



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on May 25, 2021, 10:27:47 am
Restrictions are back thanks to another contact tracing stuff up.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 25, 2021, 10:29:36 am
Restrictions are back thanks to another contact tracing stuff up.
This is the way.

I think we are pretty lucky compared to other parts of the globe and perhaps we shouldn't be complaining too much, or listening to the media which likes to make a profit from poking the bear!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on May 25, 2021, 12:01:22 pm
Restrictions are back thanks to another SA hotel quarantine stuff up.
Fixed it for you.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 25, 2021, 12:13:40 pm
I'm not sure why people think it's possible to be perfect, in any aspect of life, let alone something as difficult as controlling a virus!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on May 25, 2021, 12:30:19 pm
Fixed it for you.

Why don't you just blame India?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on May 25, 2021, 12:31:57 pm
I'm not sure why people think it's possible to be perfect, in any aspect of life, let alone something as difficult as controlling a virus!

I expect them to know which Woolworths store the case visited.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 25, 2021, 12:32:26 pm
We have friends who live near Sochi on the Black Sea in Russia and they told us the vaccination centre for them which is a large
mobile truck rolled into the area where they live and it only had one customer for the day who was a very old woman.
Uptake is very slow and not much trust in the locally made Sputnik vaccine, not sure how world borders will re-open if no one will get vaccinated.
There are even talks of financial incentives being introduced in Australia...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 25, 2021, 01:15:12 pm
There are even talks of financial incentives being introduced in Australia...
I think incentives are sad because they work, the idea you have to bribe the public to do the right thing is an indictment on modern society.

Beads for the natives!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on May 25, 2021, 01:55:48 pm
Why don't you just blame India?



Just don’t blame Federal or SA Liberals over stuffing up vaccine rollout or hotel quarantine ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 25, 2021, 02:13:13 pm
Ultimately the blame game is losing strategy because politics delays action.

I think this was inevitable, COVID is endemic now that it's part of the environment we live in, anyone who thinks we can magically hold back the COVID tide without fail forever and ever has placed a losing bet!

No individual or system is perfect, and there are even likely to be some damaged individuals in society deliberately trying to set COVID free, skirt the rules or break the law just for the hell of it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 25, 2021, 02:25:25 pm
I think incentives are sad because they work, the idea you have to bribe the public to do the right thing is an indictment on modern society.

Beads for the natives!
India tried bribing the local male population with transistor radios back in the old days to have vasectomy's...
Couldnt raise much interest..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 25, 2021, 02:27:53 pm
India tried bribing the local male population with transistor radios back in the old days to have vasectomy's...
Couldnt raise much interest..
One Qld Politician suggested offering a slab of beer for each shot, and the Qld Health Dept nearly imploded! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on May 25, 2021, 03:41:09 pm
4 additional cases this afternoon.

The Covid State strikes again!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 25, 2021, 04:26:30 pm
Ill wager a bet we'll be in lockdown by Friday.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 25, 2021, 04:38:57 pm
Ill wager a bet we'll be in lockdown by Friday.
Tend to agree...its winter now and Covid around the globe seems to ramp up in the colder months and
I can see a mini lockdown being used to control this outbreak.
Why are we allowing people back into Aus from a place like India when the quarantine system is clearly not working.
Did he pick it up in India or here in SA quarantine?.and how long was the quarantine period?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 25, 2021, 04:41:49 pm
Tend to agree...its winter now and Covid around the globe seems to ramp up in the colder months and
I can see a mini lockdown being used to control this outbreak.
Why are we allowing people back into Aus from a place like India when the quarantine system is clearly not working.
Did he pick it up in India or here in SA quarantine?.and how long was the quarantine period?


I may be wrong but I believe he picked it up the corridors of the SA quarantine hotel. Agree, though, why did we let them back. Scary bit for me is that the Aldi 200m from my house is a tier 2 exposure site in this latest outbreak.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on May 25, 2021, 05:22:27 pm
I may be wrong but I believe he picked it up the corridors of the SA quarantine hotel. Agree, though, why did we let them back. Scary bit for me is that the Aldi 200m from my house is a tier 2 exposure site in this latest outbreak.

Any clues as to how it got there?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on May 25, 2021, 05:41:26 pm
I may be wrong but I believe he picked it up the corridors of the SA quarantine hotel. Agree, though, why did we let them back. Scary bit for me is that the Aldi 200m from my house is a tier 2 exposure site in this latest outbreak.

I visited some family friends in Reservoir on Saturday night, I knew the Northern suburbs were trouble.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 25, 2021, 06:18:45 pm
Any clues as to how it got there?
No idea but they shouldnt be quarantining in hotels IMO
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on May 25, 2021, 07:02:23 pm
and the farce continues ....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 26, 2021, 05:16:10 am
Just don’t blame Federal or SA Liberals over stuffing up vaccine rollout or hotel quarantine ...
SA screwed, thousands of Port fans at The G exposed, ironic?
(https://theapopkavoice.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Return-to-Sender-765x510.jpg)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qjzjhl-QztE
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on May 26, 2021, 06:16:09 am
Its very easy to point at the system for an error, but when contact tracing highlights the wrong Woolworths in the right suburb thats a human communication error not a system issue.

The humans are the weak point in any system.

A way to fix it is to state when in doubt both woolworths are compromised.

Here is a bigger problem though.  They only identified Woolworths based on bank details but why rely on bank details at all?  I dont spend money everywhere I go.  I think people would trace themselves better if we were given some assistance in tools to do so.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 26, 2021, 08:41:45 am
Its very easy to point at the system for an error, but when contact tracing highlights the wrong Woolworths in the right suburb thats a human communication error not a system issue.

The humans are the weak point in any system.

A way to fix it is to state when in doubt both woolworths are compromised.

Here is a bigger problem though.  They only identified Woolworths based on bank details but why rely on bank details at all?  I dont spend money everywhere I go.  I think people would trace themselves better if we were given some assistance in tools to do so.
You should have to QR code EVERYWHERE you go, no ifs or buts. I think it was MBB that mentioned a while back that in SA, that's what they do.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 26, 2021, 10:06:08 am
You should have to QR code EVERYWHERE you go, no ifs or buts. I think it was MBB that mentioned a while back that in SA, that's what they do.
Agree, went out for a coffee this morning and half the people sat in the cafe didnt bother signing or coding in, people have got slack with masks too. We will be in a mini lockdown soon....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on May 26, 2021, 10:20:38 am
SA screwed, thousands of Port fans at The G exposed, ironic?
(https://theapopkavoice.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Return-to-Sender-765x510.jpg)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qjzjhl-QztE

👹 That’s called “getting your own back”.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 26, 2021, 10:34:26 am
Agree, went out for a coffee this morning and half the people sat in the cafe didnt bother signing or coding in, people have got slack with masks too. We will be in a mini lockdown soon....
6 new cases over night, 15 in total now. The MCG crowd is a risk, I reckon lockdown will start 6pm Friday for one week. An infected person also attended 2 nightclubs in Prahran, that could be bad.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on May 26, 2021, 10:36:18 am
Reckon we'll be in lock down sometime later this week.  Just as forecast.   Yet again, the serfs will pay for this monumental F*** up     
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on May 26, 2021, 10:37:11 am
You should have to QR code EVERYWHERE you go, no ifs or buts. I think it was MBB that mentioned a while back that in SA, that's what they do.

Not just QR codes, if people were encouraged to use QR codes, and their own system, then they might be able to tell you where they have been at what times.

Im happy to track myself, I am less confident in a system that allows me to input whatever data I wish.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 26, 2021, 11:35:41 am
Not just QR codes, if people were encouraged to use QR codes, and their own system, then they might be able to tell you where they have been at what times.

Im happy to track myself, ................., I am less confident in a system that allows me to input whatever data I wish.
I wish some of the vaccine critics would have the same cynical perspective of the UK Yellow Card system they keep quoting as unequivocal proof of severe side-effects! ;D

Yellow Cards are information voluntarily completed by anybody for any reason!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 26, 2021, 12:05:07 pm
https://au.news.yahoo.com/british-model-dies-days-receiving-125359033.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on May 26, 2021, 12:19:05 pm
Pete Evans in trouble again:

Quote
The celebrity chef turned conspiracy theorist Pete Evans has again been fined for promoting an array of devices and drugs as miracle cures for ailments including the coronavirus.

The former Seven Network star was on Tuesday hit with $79,920 in fines for breaching advertising requirements.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/may/25/pete-evans-fined-80000-by-health-department-for-alleged-unlawful-spruiking-of-devices-and-medicines

I can't find any information about the two oral "medicines".
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on May 26, 2021, 12:38:10 pm
On a news site of locations to avoid:

PRAHAN; Somewhere Bar, 181 Chapel Street; 10.30pm-1am on May 22-23
PRAHAN; Three Monkeys, 210 Chapel Street; 9.10-11pm on May 22; and 12.30-2am on May 23

Can't even get names of suburbs right?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 26, 2021, 12:56:34 pm
On a news site of locations to avoid:

Can't even get names of suburbs right?
It's probably published by a syndicated teenage cadet reporter based in the Philippines or Vietnam.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on May 26, 2021, 12:58:52 pm
Pete Evans in trouble again:

I can't find any information about the two oral "medicines".

He's one sick puppy.  Career, thankfully, finished
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 26, 2021, 01:43:03 pm
He's one sick puppy.  Career, thankfully, finished
I feel some people just love the dollar$ too much, and they'll do anything and say anything to get some!

What I don't get is why their followers seem to completely lack cynicism and scepticism. They accept all the COVID anti-vaxx fakery, but believe 1 Part per Billion of a weed molecule in a shaken bottle of magnetically charged free-radical mountain water sipped while sitting under a earth energy charged polypropylene wind-catcher can cure a cancer!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on May 26, 2021, 02:13:23 pm
Peak medical groups have criticised the Australian celebrity chef Pete Evans for suggesting that a $15,000 “subtle energy platform” could be used to treat coronavirus, saying such claims are baseless, ill-informed and dangerous.

Evans, a television host and paleo diet enthusiast who has previously promoted anti-vaccination ideas, was selling the BioCharger NG Subtle Energy Platform – dismissed by the Australian Medical Association as a “fancy light machine” – for $14,990 on his website.

Evans’ ad said the machine was a “subtle energy revitalisation platform”.

“Four transmitted energies stimulate and invigorate the entire body to optimise and improve potential health, wellness, and athletic performance,” the ad says.


Nothing more need be said.  Runs a close second to Peter Brock's harmonic balancer
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on May 26, 2021, 02:20:42 pm
I am not sure if I have missed something, but hopefully someone can clear these up for me:

1) I thought with previous restrictions we didn't have to scan in if we were there for less than 15 minutes.  It seems we have to scan in regardless now.  What has changed for this to be different?

2) I would assume that if I (someone) got vaccinated - first jab - now, the vaccine wouldn't be effective until after the second jab has kicked in, a bit after 12 weeks from now.  If that's the case, why the sudden surge in vaccinations.

Thanks
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 26, 2021, 02:24:03 pm
Nothing more need be said.  Runs a close second to Peter Brock's harmonic balancer
Actually, harmonic balancers or harmonic dampers are very real pulleys mounted on engines to reduce vibrations from belts or chains.

I think you are referring to the Brock Energy Polarizer, which was a techno brick you could use to smash a window when stealing cigarettes!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 26, 2021, 02:29:38 pm
I am not sure if I have missed something, but hopefully someone can clear these up for me:

1) I thought with previous restrictions we didn't have to scan in if we were there for less than 15 minutes.  It seems we have to scan in regardless now.  What has changed for this to be different?
@dodge
Officially from https://www.coronavirus.vic.gov.au/checking-qr-codes
Current Chief Health Office directions require that anyone attending one of the above-mentioned venues or facilities for a period of 15 minutes or more must check in.

This applies to everyone, whether you are an employee, customer or other visitor attending the venue on work duties. 

For example, if you’re getting a takeaway coffee and will be at a café for less than 15 minutes, it is recommended that you check-in, but not a requirement. If you’re having a coffee at the venue and may be longer than 15 minutes, you need to check in.

2) I would assume that if I (someone) got vaccinated - first jab - now, the vaccine wouldn't be effective until after the second jab has kicked in, a bit after 12 weeks from now.  If that's the case, why the sudden surge in vaccinations.

Thanks
The 1st vaccination achieves partial efficacy(~70%) after about 10 to 14 days but this diminishes after about 3 months, so you see where the 12 week delay comes from, the 2nd vaccine will boost that efficacy to close to 95% and is expected to last at least 12 months. It's all about the formation of antibodies and COVID aware T-Cells.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on May 26, 2021, 02:34:34 pm
Thanks LP
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on May 26, 2021, 02:57:54 pm
Actually, harmonic balancers or harmonic dampers are very real pulleys mounted on engines to reduce vibrations from belts or chains.

I think you are referring to the Brock Energy Polarizer, which was a techno brick you could use to smash a window when stealing cigarettes!

Yep, I was :(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 26, 2021, 03:15:50 pm
The Rage reporting that Moderna have filed papers to setup manufacture in Australia, so that is a nice mRNA alternative to Pfizer if it ever happens.

Apparently the Feds have ordered 25 Million does of Moderna.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 27, 2021, 10:07:22 am
The grubbiness of humanity is exposed with revelations/accusations surfacing overnight that a PR company linked to the Russian Sputnik-V vaccine has been offering Euro-Influencers up to EU$2000 to promote anti-Pfizer perspectives.

If the Russian's have done this to Pfizer, do you think the other vaccines are immune?

This is a perfect example of why you must not listen to social media and instead trust the stats, humans are the problem not the math!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 27, 2021, 10:30:23 am
11 more cases, total now 26 in Victoria.
Lockdown here we come and I'm thinking it will be more than 5 days as we seem to have lost control tracing wise.
Its the Indian variant which spreads quicker so time to mask up and start counting those toilet rolls..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on May 27, 2021, 10:33:02 am
11 more cases, total now 26 in Victoria.
Lockdown here we come and I'm thinking it will be more than 5 days as we seem to have lost control tracing wise.
Its the Indian variant which spreads quicker so time to mask up and start counting those toilet rolls..

Why does it keep happening to us?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 27, 2021, 10:40:25 am
Why does it keep happening to us?
This really happened in SA, the fact it is playing out in Vic is an effect not a cause, that person who contracted COVID in the SA hotel could have just as easily been from NSW, Qld or Tassie.

Secondly, there is a geographic effect, with global trends normalised for population density showing COVID spreads more in regions of low humidity and low temperature, which it is why it is worse in winter at higher latitudes.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 27, 2021, 10:45:56 am
Jayne Hrdlicka the Virgin CEO called for weakening of restrictions.

But today Virgin are the first to cancel flights in and out of Melbourne!

Hypocrits?

Actions do not match words, another reason to trust the numbers and not people's opinions! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 27, 2021, 10:48:15 am
Why does it keep happening to us?
Victoria is a border hub between other states and allowing returning people back in to Australia from places like India is madness. Quarantine has been a feck up and can't be trusted to be 100%.Dont allow anyone back in from dodgy Covid ridden countries. You want to go to India then you take your chances with regard being allowed back in..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on May 27, 2021, 11:08:04 am
If it isn't the virus stuff up, now we have Lambie banned from Qantas for some very colourful anti gay comments.  An absolute all of government circus, surrounded by greed and entitlement and (worst of all) abject stupidity.  7 day lockdown eff tonight

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on May 27, 2021, 11:16:15 am
Jayne Hrdlicka the Virgin CEO called for weakening of restrictions.

Have it on authority straight from a Virgin manager that she is despised.  POOR appointment.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on May 27, 2021, 11:28:25 am
Suppression was all about buying time to vaccinate. Fed Liberals stuffed that up. But I will give them this. The Fed Govt is brilliant at suppression. They suppress criticism as soon as it arises. If you fail abjectly to meet your target for vaccinations, get rid of declared targets. Brilliant! Problem solved.

And why didn’t they take charge of quarantining incoming flights?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on May 27, 2021, 11:41:31 am
And why didn’t they take charge of quarantining incoming flights?

They should have.  I run a very hard line on that and have done from day dot.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on May 27, 2021, 11:43:01 pm
Complacency seems to be part of our national character; "She'll be right mate!"

I suspect that we're going to have ongoing COVID outbreaks until the Commonwealth Government bites the bullet and establishes purpose built quarantine facilities, and gets its act together to ensure that folk are vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on May 28, 2021, 07:50:57 am
Why are NSW able to handle their outbreaks without locking down?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: tonyo on May 28, 2021, 08:23:15 am
Why are NSW able to handle their outbreaks without locking down?


It's a lot about geography - Melbourne is one big flat place, Greater Sydney is full of nooks and crannies, and residents tend to hang out in their specific areas.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: tonyo on May 28, 2021, 08:25:19 am
The toilet paper rush is fairly obvious - given two of the exposure sites involved Collingwood and Essendon supporters, their need is far greater - we Bluebaggers would know only too well that those two populations are absolutely full of s**t......
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 28, 2021, 08:55:12 am
The toilet paper rush is fairly obvious - given two of the exposure sites involved Collingwood and Essendon supporters, their need is far greater - we Bluebaggers would know only too well that those two populations are absolutely full of s**t......
I live in the Eastern suburbs and the knuckle heads have panicked again and stripped the shelves for toilet paper at my local Coles and Woolies.
Also gone hard on the meat and pasta too, clearly no faith in the system to control this outbreak...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on May 28, 2021, 09:11:53 am
And why should they EB?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 28, 2021, 09:40:41 am
Get yourself a bum gun for security, delivers a cool clean stream and peace of mind! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on May 28, 2021, 09:44:23 am
I live in the Eastern suburbs and the knuckle heads have panicked again and stripped the shelves at my local Coles and Woolies.
Also gone hard on the meat and pasta too, clearly no faith in the system to control this outbreak...

You either got a bloody big family or some "downstairs issues" to need an eight pack for a 7 day lockdown.  Ferals
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 28, 2021, 09:56:18 am
And why should they EB?
Fair point Prof, if they stopped letting people back into Aus and exposing them to a quarantine system that can't get it right then we wouldn't have the problems we do..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on May 28, 2021, 10:40:53 am
What do Scotty from Marketing and Carlton United Breweries have in common?

They both make Victoria bitter ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on May 28, 2021, 10:48:45 am
https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/i-dont-know-bigger-story-world-right-now-ivermectin-nytimes-best-selling-author

For those who haven't got their heads buried 2 metres in the sand......
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 28, 2021, 11:55:20 am
A couple of articles linking to genuine scientific studies, expert commentary and trial results that discuss why medical authorities do not recommend Ivermectin for attempted treatment or attempted prevention of COVID.

https://theconversation.com/ivermectin-why-a-potential-covid-treatment-isnt-recommended-for-use-157904

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 28, 2021, 12:48:06 pm
Stood down unrelated non healthcare workers etc being uses as Hotel Quarantine staff, zero qualifications or training and we wonder why we have problems? I just presumed they would be healthcare trained staff, we know of two people who couldnt plug a dog and a bone together much less follow hygiene procedures being employed for this work.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on May 28, 2021, 12:50:27 pm
https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/i-dont-know-bigger-story-world-right-now-ivermectin-nytimes-best-selling-author

For those who haven't got their heads buried 2 metres in the sand......

Im pretty sure if there was a magic bullet for all this stuff that actually worked, we would likely not be a pandemic.

Why do you think they are ignoring this?  And before you say $$, I can tell you that this pandemic has cost more money in crap, than it has generated for any one party.  PPE isnt free even for a company that stands to make a lot of money manufacturing a vaccine. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on May 28, 2021, 12:51:31 pm
Stood down unrelated non healthcare workers etc being uses as Hotel Quarantine staff, zero qualifications or training and we wonder why we have problems? I just presumed they would be healthcare trained staff, we know of two people who couldnt plug a dog and a bone together much less follow hygiene procedures being employed for this work.

Hardly surprising, our hospitals dont have enough staff most of the time.  Ditto aged care.  Why would hotel quarantine be any different?  People were cracking it about security and ADF, they are the best candidates for the job because they are both replacable, and somewhat responsible.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on May 28, 2021, 01:21:02 pm
The neo-con obsession with eliminating “excess capacity” is the problem. Going back to 2018, there were no pandemics. Why the hell pay to maintain a highly-trained workforce just in case a pandemic breaks out? After all, we can just set up a response in a week or so if we need to.

When Obama handed over to Trump, his staff handed over a manual covering pandemic response but that apparently was thrown in the bin. They had 3 virologists embedded in the Chinese pandemic response system but Trump was able to save money by withdrawing 2 of them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 28, 2021, 03:17:13 pm
Hardly surprising, our hospitals dont have enough staff most of the time.  Ditto aged care.  Why would hotel quarantine be any different?  People were cracking it about security and ADF, they are the best candidates for the job because they are both replacable, and somewhat responsible.
Speaking of Hospitals, ED's just over crowded, the Austin's was/is overflowing and one Bayside Public Hospital had people
on trolleys in corridors. This is what happens when they end Bypass and Ambos are forced to take patients to the closest hospital.
You get this build up and something resembling the Indian public system, and this is non Covid related too.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on May 28, 2021, 06:55:42 pm
Im pretty sure if there was a magic bullet for all this stuff that actually worked, we would likely not be a pandemic.

Why do you think they are ignoring this?  And before you say $$, I can tell you that this pandemic has cost more money in crap, than it has generated for any one party.  PPE isnt free even for a company that stands to make a lot of money manufacturing a vaccine. 

https://trialsitenews.com/five-rcts-recently-published-in-mainstream-scientific-journals-that-confirm-major-statistically-significant-benefits-of-ivermectin-against-covid-19-as-reported-in-several-prior-rcts/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on May 28, 2021, 06:56:49 pm
The neo-con obsession with eliminating “excess capacity” is the problem. Going back to 2018, there were no pandemics. Why the hell pay to maintain a highly-trained workforce just in case a pandemic breaks out? After all, we can just set up a response in a week or so if we need to.

When Obama handed over to Trump, his staff handed over a manual covering pandemic response but that apparently was thrown in the bin. They had 3 virologists embedded in the Chinese pandemic response system but Trump was able to save money by withdrawing 2 of them.

That's just orange man hate rubbish.

You're better than than Mav.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on May 28, 2021, 07:01:42 pm
https://trialsitenews.com/five-rcts-recently-published-in-mainstream-scientific-journals-that-confirm-major-statistically-significant-benefits-of-ivermectin-against-covid-19-as-reported-in-several-prior-rcts/

So if it works so well why are they ignoring ivermectin?

I call BS on it being worthy of discussion.

A significant difference is greater than 10% for your own knowledge. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on May 28, 2021, 07:25:09 pm
So if it works so well why are they ignoring ivermectin?

I call BS on it being worthy of discussion.

A significant difference is greater than 10% for your own knowledge. 

Thanks for the condescension. Data assessment is my area of expertise...

Call BS as much as you want, but if like LP, you can't be bothered reading the studies, don't waste my time...

https://c19ivermectin.com/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on May 28, 2021, 07:30:43 pm
That's just orange man hate rubbish.

You're better than than Mav.
You don’t like facts. Seems right-wingers have a version of Hansard: if you realise the facts are embarrassing, you have the right to claim they never existed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on May 28, 2021, 07:36:04 pm
You don’t like facts. Seems right-wingers have a version of Hansard: if you realise the facts are embarrassing, you have the right to claim they never existed.

I'm far from right wing you clown. but nice try.

Put up some substance rather than rhetoric....

Which facts don't I like?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on May 28, 2021, 07:43:45 pm
I'm far from right wing you clown. but nice try.

Put up some substance rather than rhetoric....

Which facts don't I like?
I’ll get you to do a bit of homework: list the (alleged) facts you claim were orange man rubbish and then I’ll tell you which you don’t like.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on May 28, 2021, 08:08:24 pm
You're not even funny.

Let's switch back to the real world.

Days ago, a family in Warrnambool lost their 8yo son (by drowning) at a school camp. 400 odd km from Melbourne. Zero virus out there....

The government denied their request to have more than 10 people at the lad's funeral.

Meanwhile, builders keep building (in the hot spot here in the city), footy players keep playing footy, etc.

I have an 8yo son. Who just returned from his first camp.

GAGF. If you can't acknowledge all this BS is political.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on May 28, 2021, 08:12:38 pm
Could you imagine Mav's rants on here if Scomo or Abbott ordered  lockdowns like this?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 28, 2021, 08:16:59 pm
I think we read here the genuine variations in the capacity of some individuals to deal with life's variations, this lockdown being one of them. I feel sorry for them, but as I've written before nobody must allow their confused rhetoric to go unchallenged.

It's the confused rhetoric they broadcast that feeds the vaccine hesitancy by placing fears and doubts in the thoughts of otherwise reasonable people.

As for Ivermectin, it only works treating viral infections in a very small number of cases, and it has very little efficacy in prevention and no long term immunity is delivered to the recipient, and to achieve the short term a users must take tablets costing $10-$15 each weekly for a maximum course of four tablets over about a month. Ivermectin's manufacturer recommend a complex brew of complementary medicines to ensure a result in that treatment window. But they cannot stay on it because it brings toxic side effects that will eventually cause more harm than good to the long term user That is the huge flaw in the Ivermectin argument. Wrongly many claim a single tablet is needed once a year, but that is a confusion of a regime for treatment fungal skin infections when used in conjunction with corticoid steroids.

A $2 vaccine gives 70% efficacy after 14 days, that is about 300% improvement over using Ivermectin as a preventative even if users could stay on it at $10 - $15 per week.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on May 28, 2021, 08:23:43 pm
I'm getting the Pfizer now that I can (now that 40+ can get it). Why would I have rushed to get an inferior vaccine like astra? Like everyone I work with we had to wait 2 weeks after our flu shot.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on May 28, 2021, 08:30:16 pm
You're not even funny.

Let's switch back to the real world.

Days ago, a family in Warrnambool lost their 8yo son (by drowning) at a school camp. 400 odd km from Melbourne. Zero virus out there....

The government denied their request to have more than 10 people at the lad's funeral.

Meanwhile, builders keep building (in the hot spot here in the city), footy players keep playing footy, etc.

I have an 8yo son. Who just returned from his first camp.

GAGF. If you can't acknowledge all this BS is political.
You really are a scumbag. Trying to claim you’re somehow in the shoes of a family who’ve suffered unspeakable tragedy because you have an 8 yo who returned from camp and using that to push your political views. My God, can you get any lower. Newsflash, many of us have kids who went on camp in recent years.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on May 28, 2021, 08:35:07 pm
Could you imagine Mav's rants on here if Scomo or Abbott ordered  lockdowns like this?
Wrong. I’m in favour of lockdowns to buy time for vaccinations/contact-tracing. It’s the vaccination stuff-up that rankles.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 28, 2021, 08:36:53 pm
I'm getting the Pfizer now that I can (now that 40+ can get it). Why would I have rushed to get an inferior vaccine like astra? Like everyone I work with we had to wait 2 weeks after our flu shot.
 There is no difference in the two vaccines, the social media assertions and political positions are bogus and unsupported by the statistics.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on May 28, 2021, 08:53:12 pm
Thanks for the condescension. Data assessment is my area of expertise...

Call BS as much as you want, but if like LP, you can't be bothered reading the studies, don't waste my time...

https://c19ivermectin.com/

Condescension...

I haven't bothered with that.

Give ivermectin a go for a year amd come tell me after how you're feeling.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on May 28, 2021, 08:55:05 pm
All the numerous statistics I have seen have the Pfizer at around 80% effective and the Astra Z at 60% effective. Both work well but one is clearly superior.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on May 28, 2021, 08:58:02 pm
Condescension...

I haven't bothered with that.

Give ivermectin a go for a year amd come tell me after how you're feeling.

Pathetic.

Have you read even one study? I doubt it.

Pathetic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on May 28, 2021, 09:03:30 pm
Pathetic.

Have you read even one study? I doubt it.

Pathetic.

I read the link you posted.  Ive read numerous links you've posted.

The only one being condescending is you.

Pathetic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on May 28, 2021, 09:06:57 pm
The government denied their request to have more than 10 people at the lad's funeral.

Purely in isolation, that decision was disgusting regardless of who made it.

Zero humanity.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on May 28, 2021, 09:21:16 pm
All the numerous statistics I have seen have the Pfizer at around 80% effective and the Astra Z at 60% effective. Both work well but one is clearly superior.

https://theconversation.com/im-over-50-and-hesitant-about-the-astrazeneca-covid-vaccine-should-i-wait-for-pfizer-161283

"Although phase 3 clinical trial data indicated the AstraZeneca vaccine had an efficacy of around 70%, new real-world data from the United Kingdom tells us it could be as much as 85%-90% effective in protecting against symptomatic COVID-19.

This is positive news and not far off the 95% figure for the Pfizer vaccine seen in clinical trials and in the real world."


If I was given a choice, I'd probably choose the Pfizer, but the differences, if any exist, are so minor that it's barely worth worrying about IMO.

The situation is evolving so rapidly, it's hard to keep up. We are in the early changes of a long game with covid, and how the various vaccines fare over the long term could be very different to the current state of play.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on May 28, 2021, 09:30:22 pm
And remember that reduction in infection isn’t the only important metric. If a particular vaccine eliminates death or serious damage after infection then the % reduction of infections becomes less important.

And if a vaccine prevents someone from infecting others even if it fails to avoid infection in the patient, that’s a big result too.

I’m not saying AZ can boast those qualities as I haven’t kept up with the latest studies.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on May 28, 2021, 09:50:47 pm
Purely in isolation, that decision was disgusting regardless of who made it.

Zero humanity.

Shameful. Especially considering we're watching 40+ blokes are tackling each other right now at an exposure site.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on May 28, 2021, 09:52:23 pm
If Astra was the only jab we had of course I would get it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on May 28, 2021, 10:04:59 pm
Exposure sites are listed with times to enable people who were there at those times to test themselves. That’s because the main risk is airborne infection. The period of concern can be as small as a few minutes. Rest assured, Covid won’t be hanging around in the air inside Marvel Stadium after a whole week. And presumably the bays concerned would have been disinfected (although it’s doubtful fomites live that long anyway).

AFL footballers are all tested repeatedly for Covid. That means they really are in a different category. Would all those who might attend a funeral be tested beforehand?

Let’s not compare apples & oranges.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 28, 2021, 10:19:06 pm
All the numerous statistics I have seen have the Pfizer at around 80% effective and the Astra Z at 60% effective. Both work well but one is clearly superior.
No that is not correct at all, when they are assessed together side by side using the same protocols by independent scientific authorities they are virtually identical in efficacy. The initial numbers reported by AstraZeneca and Pfizer used different measures, which made Pfizer sound superior but it isn't, but the numbers have stuck being the first thing most people heard. It was clever marketing.

Further, those false assumptions have biased data from voluntary reporting sources like the UK Yellow Card system, because people think AstraZeneca makes you sick based on social media and media commentary, they report side-effects at a higher rate. When the reporting is completed and filtered by health professionals the differences almost disappear, what remains is so small it is statistically insignificant and no quantity of FB posts can change that hard real world fact.

The problem is a lack of understanding in the reported numbers, and cherry picking of data by unscientific sources like social media and those with political motivations.

We are partially in this lockdown now because of vaccine hesitancy, the authorities have been discarding expired batches because not enough people are going to get vaccinated, not because there aren't enough staff to issue the doses! My associate went to the Sandon Hub on Thursday and told me that hub had dozens of staff ready and not enough patients to vaccinate, they were pleading with the few patients they had to please spread the word among friends and associates to go and get vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on May 28, 2021, 11:25:50 pm
I use ivermectin to worm my chooks.  It works very well.  It's also useful for treating a couple of parasitological conditions in humans.

Sadly, and not too different from the suggestion that injecting bleach could cure COVID-19, some unscrupulous folk have been advocating the use of ivermectin as a COVID treatment, with unfortunate results.

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19

It is possible that ivermectin could prove useful in treating COVID-19 symptoms but, to date, no rigorous trials have shown that to be the case.

https://theconversation.com/ivermectin-why-a-potential-covid-treatment-isnt-recommended-for-use-157904
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 29, 2021, 12:37:56 am
Purely in isolation, that decision was disgusting regardless of who made it.

Zero humanity.
How does one give an exemption to one mother and not another? Just saying.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on May 29, 2021, 01:00:45 am
How does one give an exemption to one mother and not another? Just saying.

OK.  Why not both GTC?  Set up a testing facility for others outside the 10 limit attendance, especially given that clown merlino labelled it a 7 day "circuit breaker" lockdown? 

Effin' cruel.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on May 29, 2021, 07:11:38 am
Exposure sites are listed with times to enable people who were there at those times to test themselves. That’s because the main risk is airborne infection. The period of concern can be as small as a few minutes. Rest assured, Covid won’t be hanging around in the air inside Marvel Stadium after a whole week. And presumably the bays concerned would have been disinfected (although it’s doubtful fomites live that long anyway).

AFL footballers are all tested repeatedly for Covid. That means they really are in a different category. Would all those who might attend a funeral be tested beforehand?

Let’s not compare apples & oranges.

I'm comparing celebs with ordinary people.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on May 29, 2021, 07:32:01 am
Yes, I wonder about that as well.  Us proles have to wait months for medical tests or procedures, a footballer has an incident and the next news cross shows them entering the club after scans.  Amazing how that solidly booked MRI machine was suddenly available.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on May 29, 2021, 09:53:41 am
You’re a footy fan who is outraged that the AFL takes the necessary steps to ensure games can be played. Interesting. Maybe your outrage is as sincere as Captain Renault’s in Casablanca when he closed down Rick’s Café upon being shocked to discover gambling was taking place.

AFL players may be celebs but they’re also workers. The AFL mandates testing and adherence to protocols worked out with the various governments. Remember a few players have been 86’d for breaching them. The players don’t wake up in the morning and decide they’d like their brains massaged through their nostrils just for fun.

Does the AFL have privileged access to testing? I don’t know. I remember seeing film of them attending a drive-through testing station. Maybe that was one open to the public, maybe not. Until this latest outbreak, authorities were begging Victorians to get tested and there really weren’t any queues. But access to tests has hardly been restricted. If the AFL has, like other employers such as hospitals, organised its own testing of its workers, that’s hardly a basis for crying privilege. Are players’ samples processed more quickly? Unknown. But if there are private firms that process tests more quickly at the employers expense and the government requires the AFL to pay for that service, is that celeb-style privilege?

As with the comment about MRIs, I’d be more than happy to kill off the private option in healthcare and education. Get rid of private hospitals and private schools. But until that occurs, it’s a bit rich to slam people who pay privately for those services.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on May 29, 2021, 10:35:57 am
I use ivermectin to worm my chooks.  It works very well.  It's also useful for treating a couple of parasitological conditions in humans.

Sadly, and not too different from the suggestion that injecting bleach could cure COVID-19, some unscrupulous folk have been advocating the use of ivermectin as a COVID treatment, with unfortunate results.

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19

It is possible that ivermectin could prove useful in treating COVID-19 symptoms but, to date, no rigorous trials have shown that to be the case.

https://theconversation.com/ivermectin-why-a-potential-covid-treatment-isnt-recommended-for-use-157904

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU02mdnoNws

You're being lazy David. And ill informed.

https://c19ivermectin.com/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on May 29, 2021, 11:07:32 am
And the myth of asymptomatic transmission is at the core of our governments' irrational responses to covid.

https://www.hartgroup.org/asymptomatic-spread/

An even bigger part of the con than the not fit for purpose PCT test.

https://swprs.org/the-trouble-with-pcr-tests/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on May 29, 2021, 11:15:44 am
You’re a footy fan who is outraged that the AFL takes the necessary steps to ensure games can be played. Interesting. Maybe your outrage is as sincere as Captain Renault’s in Casablanca when he closed down Rick’s Café upon being shocked to discover gambling was taking place.

AFL players may be celebs but they’re also workers. The AFL mandates testing and adherence to protocols worked out with the various governments. Remember a few players have been 86’d for breaching them. The players don’t wake up in the morning and decide they’d like their brains massaged through their nostrils just for fun.

Does the AFL have privileged access to testing? I don’t know. I remember seeing film of them attending a drive-through testing station. Maybe that was one open to the public, maybe not. Until this latest outbreak, authorities were begging Victorians to get tested and there really weren’t any queues. But access to tests has hardly been restricted. If the AFL has, like other employers such as hospitals, organised its own testing of its workers, that’s hardly a basis for crying privilege. Are players’ samples processed more quickly? Unknown. But if there are private firms that process tests more quickly at the employers expense and the government requires the AFL to pay for that service, is that celeb-style privilege?

As with the comment about MRIs, I’d be more than happy to kill off the private option in healthcare and education. Get rid of private hospitals and private schools. But until that occurs, it’s a bit rich to slam people who pay privately for those services.

Professional athletes should be high priority to get the appropriate tests done.  In this case its not just a threat to the player and players.  Its competition threatening as well as them not being able to continue without these tests and procedures.  Imagine lock down with no footy to watch....

Before anyone is outraged, hear me out regarding ordinary testing too.

These tests and procedures are all categorised into priority and they bump people up and down based on threat to life and ability to function as a human being.

The majority of people waiting on lists for procedures and waiting to see specialists have generally been assessed as non life threatening and relative to others on list, non debilitating.   Capacity and luck drives this as much as anything else.

Non debilitating might mean a lot of things but this isn't utopia and they must take a pragmatic and repeatable approach to these matters. 

If you're lucky, and not many are waiting for the same procedure for that clinic, you'll get in fast.  If there's lots waiting and its both non life threatening and non debilitating which usually is interpreted as not requiring constant care giving, or constantly in pain you'll get in.

The more time wasters I.e. people who are impacted but impatient rather than actually requiring hugh categorised reaction, the harder it is for the system to prioritize essential first.

In the case of footballers, physical tests go to professional risk and the majority of their procedures and tests will be acute which brings them to the top of the list just like any emergency emergency patient.

This is where it gets tricky. 

Conditions can become life threatening of not treated timely.  They can become debilitating if not treated quickly.

Capacity is Capacity though and footballers don't get preferential treatment just because they're footballers.  They get that treatment because the system has built in mechanisms for accommodating emergency cases requiring quick transition through the system and that capacity can be stretched when emergencies are required.

This is true for anyone.  Heart attack, diagnosis of cancer, other injuries requiring fast diagnosis of surgery.  This is not third world society or communist nations where you only get in by paying or knowing people.  This is the system.  Its imperfect but it does its best.  The majority of athletes are treated privately and pay to get the quick turnaround that Joe average could too.  Thats the difference here. 

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 29, 2021, 11:23:55 am
It is possible that ivermectin could prove useful in treating COVID-19 symptoms but, to date, no rigorous trials have shown that to be the case.
https://theconversation.com/ivermectin-why-a-potential-covid-treatment-isnt-recommended-for-use-157904
The general consensus is that Ivermectin is useful as a complimentary medication as part of a suit of compounds that can treat secondary infections caused by a COVID-19 weakened immune system.

It offers almost no detectable prophylactic function against COVID-19.

If it has any effect on COVID-19 infections it is only very mild, barely detectable in most studies that have found any positive effect at all and most have found none at all.

In the USA Ivermectin is being touted by the right wing as the correct COVID-19 solution for Africa, Mexico and India, who'd have thunk it! They think an expensive, highly profitable but barely effective treatment is better than a cheap highly effective vaccine, I wonder why?

btw., On the cost, the PBS subsidised cost of Ivermectin is about $35 a box of four, the base cost of Ivermectin is capsule form is $85 per capsule. Sure India, Africa and Mexico are going to dispense bulk Ivermectin! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on May 29, 2021, 05:29:48 pm
Anyone else get the suspicion this lockdown is going to last longer than a week?

I guess 2 at least, and in a worst case scenario where cases are still spreading we might even stretch out to 4 weeks.

The high school becoming a hotspot is about as worst case scenario as it gets.  First the kids give it to each other, then they take it home, then they take it out on the weekend to the footy, their local basketball competition, then spread it to the opposition players.

Its a contact tracers nightmare about to unfold.  Before anyone states this is rubbish, we have been living life with relative normality and over the last fortnight, speaking for myself, I saw a very lacsadaisacal approach to QR code checkins, as well as just general public behaviour.

Its like the pandemic ended and people were back to their selfish selves.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 29, 2021, 06:16:58 pm
Anyone else get the suspicion this lockdown is going to last longer than a week?

I guess 2 at least, and in a worst case scenario where cases are still spreading we might even stretch out to 4 weeks.

The high school becoming a hotspot is about as worst case scenario as it gets.  First the kids give it to each other, then they take it home, then they take it out on the weekend to the footy, their local basketball competition, then spread it to the opposition players.

Its a contact tracers nightmare about to unfold.  Before anyone states this is rubbish, we have been living life with relative normality and over the last fortnight, speaking for myself, I saw a very lacsadaisacal approach to QR code checkins, as well as just general public behaviour.

Its like the pandemic ended and people were back to their selfish selves.
I'd be thinking all of June.....case numbers are only going up and I think the contact tracing cant handle now what is
a decent spread of sites and unknowns.
Agree on the slack approach too, not everyone wearing masks and social distancing also hit and miss, you get tired of pointing to the marks on floor in shops and having to direct people in supermarkets who want to rush through the checkouts and end up breathing down your neck at the cashier.
re: Athletes..  a lot of them end up at the private ERs like Cabrini, where they get quick treatment and get to see a specialist sooner.
If you close down the private hospitals, and private schools you will only be dumping those patients/students into the public system and making the waiting times longer and the class sizes larger.
Like it or not we need the private systems and celebs/athletes do benefit because of their wealth and connections, its often unfair but until funding improves to the public system thats the way it is.
We are lucky the under resourced public hospitals and staff do such a good job in the main to handle the workload because the pollies couldnt care less..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on May 29, 2021, 09:49:49 pm
This isn’t the thread to get into the weeds concerning private schools and the like. But can I just quickly point out that the funding model Howard brought in requires the Federal Govt to match increases in funding to needy Govt schools with increases of private school funding. Build some extra classrooms in underesourced schools and you need to build a 2nd or 3rd swimming pool at Scotch College. Anyway, that’s my recollection of this nonsense and I’m happy to be corrected.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on May 30, 2021, 11:28:53 am
There are now about 20 randomized clinical trials (RCTs) of ivermectin for covid. They overwhelmingly show reductions in mortality, when used in adequate doses and in patients who are in early enough stages of the disease.

The Kory et al review encompasses both observational and RCT data. It was published in early May in a peer-reviewed journal, the American Journal of Therapeutics, and is already the most-viewed paper in the journal’s history.

https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/Fulltext/2021/06000/Review_of_the_Emerging_Evidence_Demonstrating_the.4.aspx

The Bryant, Lawrie meta analysis is very rigorous (only considers the RCTs etc) and reaches similar conclusions: about a 70% relative reduction in mortality when used in adequate doses and early enough.

https:2.1//osf.io/k37ft/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2ju5v4TAaQ&t=1166s
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 30, 2021, 12:20:40 pm
Meta analysis is analysing data from trials previously completed, some of the trials forming part of the analysis were completed almost a decade before COVID-19.

All the of the trials used at least one other drug like doxycycline or azithromycin in conjunction with ivermectin, a cocktail of pharmaceuticals, they don't know why they worked or what they worked on because the meta analysis required no analysis of secondary infections.

No specific direct treatment or prophylaxis of SARS-CoV-2 virus was demonstrated, the papers are analysis the survival of illness post COVID-19 illness, but many trials do not differentiate mild illness versus severe illness, they are just lumped into the same category.

Really these studies repeatedly demonstrate just how serious COVID-19 is and why vaccination is so important. If you get a SARS-CoV-2 infection and develop COVID-19 you are at great risk of becoming very ill from secondary infections requiring a suite of pharmaceuticals to assist, there is no silver bullet to make you better.

SARS-CoV-2 is the virus, ............... COVID-19 is the disease that SARS-CoV-2 causes........ COVID-19 is a complex set of symptoms and infections.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on May 30, 2021, 12:46:49 pm
This lock down is a total joke - town is inundated with visitors. Cruising around in their heritage cars etc.   Usual stuff - "sun's out,  flogs out".
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 30, 2021, 01:06:00 pm
A staffer at a nursing home in Melbournes West now with CoVid and no link to the other cases, its getting out of control slowly and
I cant see the lockdown lifted for a while. Winter has been a bad time for other countries and its looking that way in Melbourne which is the CoVid capital of Australia. Read this morning although the contact tracing has improved in Victoria it still isnt as good as NSW, why is that after all the grief we had previously?, the Victorian system should be the best given it should have had extra resources, training etc provided.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 30, 2021, 01:07:53 pm
A staffer at a nursing home in Melbournes West now with CoVid and no link to the other cases, its getting out of control slowly and
I cant see the lockdown lifted for a while. Winter has been a bad time for other countries and its looking that way in Melbourne which is the CoVid capital of Australia. Read this morning although the contact tracing has improved in Victoria it still isnt as good as NSW, why is that after all the grief we had previously?, the Victorian system should be the best given it should have had extra resources, training etc provided.

EB it has to be linked to another case, they just haven't made the link yet.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 30, 2021, 01:22:21 pm
EB it has to be linked to another case, they just haven't made the link yet.
GTC, I get it has to come from somewhere but clearly there is going to be a time gap on this one which means it will spread further. I liked the bit too that said staff at the nursing home will now wear full PPE gear??..... er  shouldnt they have been wearing full PPE gear anyway in a home with previous cases last time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 30, 2021, 01:25:26 pm
GTC, I get it has to come from somewhere but clearly there is going to be a time gap on this one which means it will spread further. I liked the bit too that said staff at the nursing home will now wear full PPE gear??..... er  shouldnt they have been wearing full PPE gear anyway in a home with previous cases last time.
How the residents of the aged care homes weren't mostly vaccinated months ago is a disgrace!

They've been left to the will of the Scotty's God of Happy Clappers!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on May 30, 2021, 01:37:59 pm
So much for a "closed circuit" 7 day shutdown.  Absolutely stooged again, for the fourth time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on May 30, 2021, 02:13:53 pm
I’d love to see the initial spreaders prosecuted. Fair chance they’d drunk the right-wing Kool-Aid and believed Covid Is no worse than the flu and they’d do the community a favour by spreading it so we can reach herd immunity. How else do you explain that this small number of people travelled around Melbourne more than a tourist would? And a 60 and 70 year old failed to seek any testing or treatment for 12 days only to see the 70 year old end up in ICU on a ventilator. Neither of them were vaccinated despite being eligible for months. Has all the hallmarks of a IDGAF about anybody else mentality.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on May 30, 2021, 02:36:22 pm
A staffer at a nursing home in Melbournes West now with CoVid and no link to the other cases, its getting out of control slowly and
I cant see the lockdown lifted for a while. Winter has been a bad time for other countries and its looking that way in Melbourne which is the CoVid capital of Australia. Read this morning although the contact tracing has improved in Victoria it still isnt as good as NSW, why is that after all the grief we had previously?, the Victorian system should be the best given it should have had extra resources, training etc provided.


I heard an epidemiologist on the wireless this morning stating that the system was well on top of the outbreak, ie the source of all cases is or will be known shortly and most new cases have already been isolating.  He could see no reason to extend the lockdown.

I hope he's right  :-\
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on May 30, 2021, 06:22:50 pm
Meta analysis is analysing data from trials previously completed, some of the trials forming part of the analysis were completed almost a decade before COVID-19.

All the of the trials used at least one other drug like doxycycline or azithromycin in conjunction with ivermectin, a cocktail of pharmaceuticals, they don't know why they worked or what they worked on because the meta analysis required no analysis of secondary infections.

No specific direct treatment or prophylaxis of SARS-CoV-2 virus was demonstrated, the papers are analysis the survival of illness post COVID-19 illness, but many trials do not differentiate mild illness versus severe illness, they are just lumped into the same category.

Really these studies repeatedly demonstrate just how serious COVID-19 is and why vaccination is so important. If you get a SARS-CoV-2 infection and develop COVID-19 you are at great risk of becoming very ill from secondary infections requiring a suite of pharmaceuticals to assist, there is no silver bullet to make you better.

SARS-CoV-2 is the virus, ............... COVID-19 is the disease that SARS-CoV-2 causes........ COVID-19 is a complex set of symptoms and infections.

Thanks for letting me know what a meta analysis is...

You know far more than all these experts. Right, how silly of me, of course you do.

Quote
The first finding was that ivermectin substantially reduces death amongst hospitalised patients with mild, moderate or severe covid-19. Six randomised controlled trials (RCTs) were included and the pooled estimate of reduction in the risk of death was 83% (95% CI 67-92%). “We don’t know what the precise estimate is, but even if it is on the lower estimate or even half as good it is still a substantial reduction in deaths”, say Dr Lawrie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTTqKSYHOM8&t=105s

Do you just make stuff up? That's problematic.

Do you work for one of the pharma companies? That would make sense.

https://ivmmeta.com/

Meanwhile, back in the real world, and in Oz, 210 deaths are potentially attributable to the vaccines rollout.

Quote
To 23 May 2021, 3.6 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines have been given in Australia. In this period, the TGA has received 210 reports of deaths following immunisation – 109 have been reported for the Pfizer vaccine, 94 for the AstraZeneca vaccine and seven where the vaccine was not specified. Most of these reports (93%) were for people 65 years of age and over, and over three quarters were 75 years of age and over.

https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-27-05-2021




Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 30, 2021, 07:00:28 pm
So some silly scrag at a protest yesterday was shown on the news breathing heavily on people. She was arrested (I think) by police, turns out she's an aged care worker. What farken hope have we got?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on May 30, 2021, 07:13:17 pm
So some silly scrag at a protest yesterday was shown on the news breathing heavily on people. She was arrested (I think) by police, turns out she's an aged care worker. What farken hope have we got?

Who was she breathing on?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on May 30, 2021, 07:29:10 pm
Who was she breathing on?

Thankfully for her, it wasn't me
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 30, 2021, 07:42:32 pm
Who was she breathing on?
Reporters, police. As in getting in their face and blowing our air in their faces.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on May 30, 2021, 08:08:54 pm
The pity is that she was breathing at all. She should have been strangled at birth.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on May 30, 2021, 09:36:31 pm
Vaccination rates are going to soar with the Deputy PM saying there's no rush...f#$%knuckle.  Hope not many heard him
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 30, 2021, 09:38:35 pm
The pity is that she was breathing at all. She should have been strangled at birth.
And yet, such imbeciles are amongst us and work "looking after" our elderly loved ones. I hope to god she was sacked today.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 30, 2021, 10:25:50 pm
The problem was letting that bloke come back from India....keep the borders shut. You want to holiday or live in a CoVid hotspot like India then dont expect to be let back into a secure CoVid free country. You can sort out your vaccination programs, get the best vaccines imported in all while knowing their isnt an outbreak brewing in a quarantine hotel staffed by untrained nuffies.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 31, 2021, 04:30:59 pm
https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-27-05-2021
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 31, 2021, 04:44:16 pm
https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-27-05-2021
GP gave me the ok, Mrs G2C and I booked in for next Tuesday.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on May 31, 2021, 05:05:24 pm
https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-27-05-2021

lies, damned lies and statistics.

1 in 1000 present with adverse results according to the "studies".

Your link is pointing to 6.1 out of 1000....  thats a fair stuff up of calculation.  1 in 164 have an adverse reaction unless I misread the statistics...  Or maybe the 1 in 1000 is death not a bloodclot....

Then we wonder why people arent trusting blind advice.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 31, 2021, 05:11:24 pm
lies, damned lies and statistics.

1 in 1000 present with adverse results according to the "studies".

Your link is pointing to 6.1 out of 1000....  thats a fair stuff up of calculation.  1 in 164 have an adverse reaction unless I misread the statistics...  Or maybe the 1 in 1000 is death not a bloodclot....

Then we wonder why people arent trusting blind advice.

You're building an association that isn't there, what you seem to imply is a confusion of deaths per million during the vaccination period, deaths associated from vaccinations and adverse reactions to vaccination which are 3 different numbers not all reported here.

It explains what a reported reaction is and what the background for the death rates is.

Where does your 1 in 1000 come from?

Quote
To 23 May 2021, 3.6 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines have been given in Australia. In this period, the TGA has received 210 reports of deaths following immunisation – 109 have been reported for the Pfizer vaccine, 94 for the AstraZeneca vaccine and seven where the vaccine was not specified. Most of these reports (93%) were for people 65 years of age and over, and over three quarters were 75 years of age and over. Many of the deaths relate to elderly aged-care residents.

The TGA reviews all deaths reported after vaccination and monitors for safety signals. Part of our analysis includes comparing expected natural death rates to observed death rates following immunisation. To date, the observed number of deaths reported after vaccination is actually less than the expected number of deaths.

Each year in Australia, there are about 160,000 deaths, equating to 13,300 a month or 3050 each week. In the most recent reporting year (2018)(link is external) two-thirds of these deaths were in people aged 75 years and over.

Additionally, deaths from COVID-19 disease overwhelmingly occur in the elderly. While the 20-29 age group has had the highest number of cases of COVID-19 in Australia (followed by the 30-39 age group), 94 % (852 of 910) of COVID-19 deaths in Australia(link is external) have been in those aged 70 or over.

Apart from the single Australian case in which death was linked to TTS, COVID-19 vaccines have not been found to cause death. Given the benefits of vaccination with regard to preventing severe disease, hospitalisation and death from COVID-19, particularly in older age groups, immunisation is strongly encouraged as we head into the winter months.

So of the 210 people that died sometime after being vaccinated, only 1 case has been linked to the vaccination as a severe adverse reaction, that's 1 out of 3.6 million doses. That is safer than the flu shot!

Also note how this debunks @madbluboy comments about Pfizer is safer/better. Not that you see it in the press, but if you play politics how come the media don't mention more people dying after Pfizer vaccine than AstraZeneca, why not turn your cynicism there?
 


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on May 31, 2021, 05:18:26 pm
https://rumble.com/vhp7y5-full-interview-world-renowned-doctor-blows-lid-off-of-covid-vaccine.html

Even though LP knows better....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 31, 2021, 05:23:50 pm
https://rumble.com/vhp7y5-full-interview-world-renowned-doctor-blows-lid-off-of-covid-vaccine.html

Even though LP knows better....
The naysayers and people crying wolf can't better the math, the numbers are overwhelmingly in the favour of vaccination, it's not even a contest anymore the debate is done and dusted. The naysayers lose massively.

The irony is the mass vaccination "is already the study" they say should have been done first, it is the mass trial phase and it's proven safe.

Almost a billion say hello, ........... the fat lady sings ................. crushing her opponents! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on May 31, 2021, 05:33:54 pm
We should not be using hotels for quarantine. I know it was an emergency stop-gap but that time has well passed. These should have been under construction nearly 12 months ago.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on May 31, 2021, 05:42:52 pm
Look at the thieving mongrels handed overly generous govt. contracts to police the quarantine and totally f***ed it up.  Hundreds of millions of dollars.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on May 31, 2021, 05:43:29 pm
I heard an epidemiologist today state how crazy it is to suspend/cut any of the vaccines, at this stage in Europe vaccination rates have fallen by about 1 million per day, and COVID cases are now rising in many locations. He said it's expected that 10%(100K) of those 1 million now not getting vaccinated daily due to the cut will get COVID, and out of that shortfall group at least 5 will die and 3000 will get long COVID, while if they had vaccinated that 100K COVID cases none would get severe or long COVID, and only 1/2 a person per day gets a clotting issue.

30% of all COVID patients, on the full spectrum from asymptomatic to severe, will suffer from some form of clotting or low platelet count issue.

0.0005% of COVID vaccine recipients get a severe clot issue.

That is interesting based on the newest news. Today it's surfaced that the UK has an almost 50/50 strike rate for clotting from Adenovirus or mRNA vaccines. It's all been kept a bit quiet on the Moderna / Pfizer side of the debate, apparently Moderna(mRNA) has been under investigation in the US for several weeks and it's not been made public.

There is lots and lots of politics going on in all this.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 31, 2021, 05:46:00 pm
GP gave me the ok, Mrs G2C and I booked in for next Tuesday.
I'm sure you will both be fine and I expect you to report for forum duty sore arm and all.. ;)  8)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 31, 2021, 05:59:50 pm
lies, damned lies and statistics.

1 in 1000 present with adverse results according to the "studies".

Your link is pointing to 6.1 out of 1000....  thats a fair stuff up of calculation.  1 in 164 have an adverse reaction unless I misread the statistics...  Or maybe the 1 in 1000 is death not a bloodclot....

Then we wonder why people arent trusting blind advice.


Australia is the lucky country, being in Victoria though you are not as lucky as the other states, more CoVid fatalities and more reactions to the vaccine. I think the stats are always going to be reported in a non threatening type manner that doesnt alarm too many folk so I am skeptical in some areas.
As you know things that happen in Hospitals etc dont often make the stat sheet or the news....passing in a nursing home is common place so nobody bothers to delve too deep why, so those stats are skewed to natural causes, underlying issues etc. Way more Ambo callouts to mentally affected folk in lockdown than actual Covid ill patients but those stats wont feature or the end results of those callouts.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 01, 2021, 04:38:32 pm
I'm sure you will both be fine and I expect you to report for forum duty sore arm and all.. ;)  8)
Change of plan EB, the GP rang me today and literally got an update from the health dept this morning recommending people in my situation have the Pfizer vaccine. Now the process of him lodging forms via Vicsis to get me an appt somewhere. Nothings bloody simple.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 01, 2021, 04:51:03 pm
Change of plan EB, the GP rang me today and literally got an update from the health dept this morning recommending people in my situation have the Pfizer vaccine. Now the process of him lodging forms via Vicsis to get me an appt somewhere. Nothings bloody simple.
I know people on the forum say there is no difference between the vaccines but obviously as your case has shown there is depending on the situation. Just rocking up for the jab like a lot of people have done without first checking on what their own health situation is with your GP first is crazy IMO.
I dont want the AstraZ  and dont want to be railroaded into it either...the advertising in regards getting the jab has fallen short of what I would expect in terms of explaining that you should be advised by your GP what suits best not what suits the Governments hip pocket and political agendas.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 01, 2021, 05:04:24 pm
I know people on the forum say there is no difference between the vaccines but obviously as your case has shown there is depending on the situation. Just rocking up for the jab like a lot of people have done without first checking on what their own health situation is with your GP first is crazy IMO.
I dont want the AstraZ  and dont want to be railroaded into it either...the advertising in regards getting the jab has fallen short of what I would expect in terms of explaining that you should be advised by your GP what suits best not what suits the Governments hip pocket and political agendas.
EB the TGA website link you put up was quite specific about who should not have AZ. I was unlucky enough to have one of those specific conditions.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 01, 2021, 05:33:16 pm
EB the TGA website link you put up was quite specific about who should not have AZ. I was unlucky enough to have one of those specific conditions.


GTC, I'm taking about advertising for the average man on the street that appears on the TV etc...get the jab do it for the country etc etc...there has been no mention of the TGA. More people would know what the TAB  was for more than what the Theraputic Goods Association do. How many people getting the jab actually consulted their GP but just booked in trusting what the health officials, Eddie McGuire, Scotty Cam etc etc were saying?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 01, 2021, 07:08:23 pm
GTC, I'm taking about advertising for the average man on the street that appears on the TV etc...get the jab do it for the country etc etc...there has been no mention of the TGA. More people would know what the TAB  was for more than what the Theraputic Goods Association do. How many people getting the jab actually consulted their GP but just booked in trusting what the health officials, Eddie McGuire, Scotty Cam etc etc were saying?

Fair points
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 01, 2021, 09:28:48 pm
I think this is what you guys are talking about....


(https://scontent.fmel12-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/191680922_1159971614485863_5925834372433939655_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=VT5pHvzOZL8AX93jIMY&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel12-1.fna&oh=1b297b2f49007a11aaec2c285704f678&oe=60DC5551)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 01, 2021, 10:58:31 pm
Those are some very powerful stats that the Government wont be including in any of their vaccine advertising.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 01, 2021, 11:08:43 pm
I think this is what you guys are talking about....

And only one of the 210 deaths is actually linked to vaccination  ::)

That's one of the reasons why we are lagging behind with our vaccination rollout (the Government's penny pinching is the main reason).  People accept erroneous statistics without bothering to check for themselves.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 02, 2021, 07:54:33 am
Those are some very powerful stats that the Government wont be including in any of their vaccine advertising.....
That because they are fake, a image published by anti-vaxxer on FB or Instagram as shown by the URL.

://scontent.fmel12-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/191680922_1159971614485863_5925834372433939655_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=VT5pHvzOZL8AX93jIMY&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel12-1.fna&oh=1b297b2f49007a11aaec2c285704f678&oe=60DC5551
FBCDN.net = FaceBook Content Delivery Network

There are not and were not 210 deaths "Caused by getting the vaccines", no authority has published that or posted it.

The were 210 people who died sometime after getting a vaccination, but that poster is like saying there are 210 people who died after eating breakfast. It's not a causal relationship, it's correlation.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 02, 2021, 08:15:46 am
............................................................................

There are not and were not 210 deaths "Caused by getting the vaccines", no authority has published that or posted it.

The were 210 people who died sometime after getting a vaccination, but that poster is like saying there are 210 people who died after eating breakfast. It's not a causal relationship, it's correlation.

They are being mischievous and dishonest with how they report the data. If you go to the actual URL :

https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-27-05-2021

and read through it, it clearly provides a context for the death numbers, especially in the section entitled : Reports of death following vaccination, particularly in the elderly

I note that 109 deaths have been reported for the Pfizer, and "only" 94 for the AZ. But i thought the Pfizer was the best thing since sliced bread ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on June 02, 2021, 08:56:56 am
Looks like we'll be dealing with a nasty bird 'flu as well.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 02, 2021, 09:07:45 am
They are being mischievous and dishonest with how they report the data. If you go to the actual URL :

https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-27-05-2021

and read through it, it clearly provides a context for the death numbers, especially in the section entitled : Reports of death following vaccination, particularly in the elderly

I note that 109 deaths have been reported for the Pfizer, and "only" 94 for the AZ. But i thought the Pfizer was the best thing since sliced bread ?

appreciate that but people would argue similar for deaths caused by covid so that argument is at best a nil all draw
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 02, 2021, 09:58:22 am
appreciate that but people would argue similar for deaths caused by covid so that argument is at best a nil all draw
No the officials wouldn't report COVID deaths using the same spin, that is your deliberate personal choice to publish a private perspective which clouds the reporting and not a reality of the statistics. I think what you did there either by accident or design is called muddying the waters!

The numbers are clear, unambiguous and definitive, many of the published opinions of them not so much! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 02, 2021, 10:16:22 am
No the officials wouldn't report COVID deaths using the same spin, that is your deliberate personal choice to publish a private perspective which clouds the reporting and not a reality of the statistics. I think what you did there either by accident or design is called muddying the waters!

The numbers are clear, unambiguous and definitive, many of the published opinions of them not so much! :o

No the skeptics would, and the official reported covid deaths in analysis might be a little bit each way.

There is no harm in allowing people to point out the hypocrisy when one point is argued for or against in either circumstance.

the numbers regarding cause of death are never clear, unambiguous and definitive.

Should i retell my fathers demise due to his treatment of Chronic Lymphocytic Leukaemia and the fact that the numbers show that this cancer doesnt kill?  Or should I point to his liver failure as a result of the last cancer treatment where reactivation of Hepatitis C was listed as the official reason for his liver failure?

Without the cancer, his treatment doesnt occur, and therefore his cause of death is null and void.

I expect that the CLL figures are unchanged by that statistic. 

You know what a huge tell is?  Our case numbers are rising, we have seen a nursing home resident test positive and yet she was asymptomatic at age 90.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 02, 2021, 10:24:34 am
No the skeptics would, and the official reported covid deaths in analysis might be a little bit each way.

There is no harm in allowing people to point out the hypocrisy when one point is argued for or against in either circumstance.

the numbers regarding cause of death are never clear, unambiguous and definitive.
There is no hypocrisy because the debate questioning the validity of the official public health plan is based on fake numbers and news stripped off FaceBook. The image above is a fraud, a lie perpetrated on the public by anti-vaxxers!

I wouldn't call millions of deaths globally, unambiguous, lacking clarity or without determinism! I also think specific investigations into a couple of hundred local deaths is quite definitive, and not something that can be trivially dismissed to suit a political perspective.

You know what a huge tell is?  Our case numbers are rising, we have seen a nursing home resident test positive and yet she was asymptomatic at age 90.
What is "the tell", can you explain what the link is between being asymptomatic and being an age? Personally, I don't see any good reason why a person cannot be asymptomatic at age 2 or age 120, it's just luck of the draw or perhaps luck of the genetics!
 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 02, 2021, 11:06:56 am
That because they are fake, a image published by anti-vaxxer on FB or Instagram as shown by the URL.

://scontent.fmel12-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/191680922_1159971614485863_5925834372433939655_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=VT5pHvzOZL8AX93jIMY&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel12-1.fna&oh=1b297b2f49007a11aaec2c285704f678&oe=60DC5551
FBCDN.net = FaceBook Content Delivery Network

There are not and were not 210 deaths "Caused by getting the vaccines", no authority has published that or posted it.

The were 210 people who died sometime after getting a vaccination, but that poster is like saying there are 210 people who died after eating breakfast. It's not a causal relationship, it's correlation.
The image was on Facebook, but I went to the link on the pic and found the same numbers.

I'm not making an opinion either way, but I saw that pic, checked it out, came to this thread and you guys seems to be saying the same thing, so I linked it here.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 02, 2021, 11:28:10 am
The image was on Facebook, but I went to the link on the pic and found the same numbers.

I'm not making an opinion either way, but I saw that pic, checked it out, came to this thread and you guys seems to be saying the same thing, so I linked it here.
The official TGA link does not "seem to be saying the same thing", the official TGA website has the same numbers but says the exact opposite of what the image tries to assert.

I can't comment on what website you viewed, you may have been looking at something spoofed to support the lying image!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 02, 2021, 11:45:27 am
The official TGA link does not "seem to be saying the same thing", the official TGA website has the same numbers but says the exact opposite of what the image tries to assert.

I can't comment on what website you viewed, you may have been looking at something spoofed to support the lying image!
I viewed the tga website, that's it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 02, 2021, 12:07:09 pm
I viewed the tga website, that's it.
There is nowhere on the TGA website that states there were COVID Vaccine Deaths = 210

The TGA website is neither ambiguous or misleading, the assertion it reports 210 deaths resulting from COVID vaccination is simply wrong.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 02, 2021, 12:21:16 pm
There is no hypocrisy because the debate questioning the validity of the official public health plan is based on fake numbers and news stripped off FaceBook. The image above is a fraud, a lie perpetrated on the public by anti-vaxxers!

I wouldn't call millions of deaths globally, unambiguous, lacking clarity or without determinism! I also think specific investigations into a couple of hundred local deaths is quite definitive, and not something that can be trivially dismissed to suit a political perspective.
What is "the tell", can you explain what the link is between being asymptomatic and being an age? Personally, I don't see any good reason why a person cannot be asymptomatic at age 2 or age 120, it's just luck of the draw or perhaps luck of the genetics!
 

There is hypocrisies.

Anecdotally, the vaccine deaths are correlation not causation and the covid deaths are causation not correlation.

I just provided you a clear example of ambiguity that you ignored.

Think hard lp.

We have locked down for what will be 2 weeks now for what purpose?  To eliminate the spread of virus that infects people and thus far in this outbreak has minimal impact?

Now the modelling points differently but in starting to think this is all quite pointless.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 02, 2021, 12:39:46 pm
There is hypocrisies.

Anecdotally, the vaccine deaths are correlation not causation and the covid deaths are causation not correlation.
There are no "vaccine deaths", there is one single vaccine death, your premise is based on a lie or misdirection about a statistic!

Also, partial inversion of the logic leaves the argument non-sensical.

The fact that 210 people died is real, that they were part of 3.6 million that had been vaccinated is real, the assertion that they died as a result of vaccination is false and does not exist in the reports. In formal logic it's called a false premise, and Trump and his followers have made it an artform.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 02, 2021, 12:51:53 pm
And we again get our daily dose of "settings" Sutton.  Same crap, different day.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 02, 2021, 01:14:21 pm
There is nowhere on the TGA website that states there were COVID Vaccine Deaths = 210

The TGA website is neither ambiguous or misleading, the assertion it reports 210 deaths resulting from COVID vaccination is simply wrong.
Don't shoot the messenger
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 02, 2021, 02:54:10 pm
Just to be perfectly clear, the following is copied from the TGA website:

Quote
The TGA uses its adverse event reporting system to closely monitor reports of death following COVID-19 vaccination. During the early stages of the vaccine rollout in Australia and many other countries, deaths were reported following vaccination in older people living in aged care as this is where the vaccine rollout started. Many of these deaths were in frail elderly people and were coincidental with vaccination. This was confirmed following review by the TGA and medicine regulators in the UK, Europe and the US which found no specific safety concerns from use of the vaccines in older people.

However, it is possible in frail older people that even relatively mild and expected adverse reactions following the vaccination may contribute to deterioration of an underlying illness. For this reason, the Product Information documents for both the Pfizer and the AstraZeneca vaccines provide advice about vaccinating frail elderly people (over 85 years old) and warn that the potential benefits of vaccination must be weighed against the potential risks for each individual person.

To 23 May 2021, 3.6 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines have been given in Australia. In this period, the TGA has received 210 reports of deaths following immunisation – 109 have been reported for the Pfizer vaccine, 94 for the AstraZeneca vaccine and seven where the vaccine was not specified. Most of these reports (93%) were for people 65 years of age and over, and over three quarters were 75 years of age and over. Many of the deaths relate to elderly aged-care residents.

The TGA reviews all deaths reported after vaccination and monitors for safety signals. Part of our analysis includes comparing expected natural death rates to observed death rates following immunisation. To date, the observed number of deaths reported after vaccination is actually less than the expected number of deaths.

Each year in Australia, there are about 160,000 deaths, equating to 13,300 a month or 3050 each week. In the most recent reporting year (2018)(link is external) two-thirds of these deaths were in people aged 75 years and over.

Additionally, deaths from COVID-19 disease overwhelmingly occur in the elderly. While the 20-29 age group has had the highest number of cases of COVID-19 in Australia (followed by the 30-39 age group), 94 % (852 of 910) of COVID-19 deaths in Australia(link is external) have been in those aged 70 or over.

Apart from the single Australian case in which death was linked to TTS, COVID-19 vaccines have not been found to cause death. Given the benefits of vaccination with regard to preventing severe disease, hospitalisation and death from COVID-19, particularly in older age groups, immunisation is strongly encouraged as we head into the winter months.

So, it's true that 210 people died after immunisation but 209 of those would have died anyway.  In fact, the number of people who died following immunisation is lower than would be expected from that cohort in the normal course of events.

Another story that caught my eye was Peru revising its COVID death toll from 69,000 to over 180,000 "on the advice of Peruvian and international experts."  The revised COVID death toll now correlates with Peru's excess death figures.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 02, 2021, 03:00:52 pm
So, it's true that 210 people died after immunisation but 209 of those would have died anyway.  In fact, the number of people who died following immunisation is lower than would be expected from that cohort in the normal course of events.
Exactly, ironically it looks like being COVID-19 vaccinated decreases the general death rate.

The reality is that it probably has no effect on the general death rate over the long term, it may change short term behaviour reducing the short term death rate.

My friend who is a retired actuary tells me it's impossible to decode the cause and effect around the general death rate. For example, he said less people driving or travelling to work means less traffic deaths, but more people stay at home and climb ladders!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 02, 2021, 03:04:17 pm
There are no "vaccine deaths", there is one single vaccine death, your premise is based on a lie or misdirection about a statistic!

Also, partial inversion of the logic leaves the argument non-sensical.

The fact that 210 people died is real, that they were part of 3.6 million that had been vaccinated is real, the assertion that they died as a result of vaccination is false and does not exist in the reports. In formal logic it's called a false premise, and Trump and his followers have made it an artform.

exactly my point

If you can massage the numbers to prove a point, you can do it on either side of the fence.

Each COVID death that had co morbidity, means that COVID can be interpreted as cause of death, but they would have died anyway (assumption).

Each case would be different, ergo, the same applies to those vaccinated but dead.  Why count that number if its irrelevant?

DJC states the following:

Quote
So, it's true that 210 people died after immunisation but 209 of those would have died anyway.

If that is also true of each COVID death, is COVID the killer virus its made out to be?

Before you answer that question, ask yourself whether or not that question resonates with you in any way shape or form, and also, whether or not that is a healthy question to ask.  You will find, that its actually the most appropriate question to ask, and the answer is hidden in statistics, massaged numbers, vaccinations, and foreign counts of people.  Yet here we are in Australia, with rising case numbers, a new lockdown, and no one going to hospital with COVID.


Why??
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 02, 2021, 03:10:40 pm
exactly my point

If you can massage the numbers to prove a point, you can do it on either side of the fence.
Only one side of the debate is massaging numbers, the fake news vendors. That is where you go wrong trying to paint it as a level playing field of information. It isn't a level playing field, all the information is not the same quality, in just the same way all opinions are not equal.

The stats and numbers do not lie, they are not subject to human interpretation, influence or obfuscation, they are not like opinions that can be spun bent or twisted to an individuals will!

The emphasis on wanting COVID-19 deaths proven to support or refute the COVID-19 restrictions and other actions is also flawed, it's built on the premise that COVID-19 infections that aren't deadly are somehow OK! The evidence suggests the long term effects of long COVID-19 will potentially be far far costlier than the initial deaths. As abhorrent as it may read, a funeral is far far cheaper than a treatment or long term critical care!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 02, 2021, 03:12:54 pm
The hospitals are encouraged to not report vaccine problems and find other conditions
to use as the cause of death.
Underlying causes are being used to mask the truth with emphasis on the lying. If you want the true stats speak to the staff not the tga website or the hospital administrators.
The problem statistic for that argument is as @DJC points out, total deaths have dropped. That statistic tears the concept you are asserting a new one!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 02, 2021, 03:14:14 pm
The problem statistic for that argument is as @DJC points out, total deaths have dropped. That statistic tears the concept you are asserting a new one!
Do you think every death is reported...?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 02, 2021, 03:18:55 pm
Do you think every death is reported...?
If we are talking about here in Australia, yes every death is reported and accounted for.

It regards to the global statistics, it doesn't matter as long as the method of collecting them is consistent then the count remains valid.

You are an engineer, I don't expect we have to debate Regression to the Mean or Standard Deviations, or what they mean to the general trend, or what averages mean to an assertion that some numbers might be missing or that the count was somehow imperfect.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 02, 2021, 03:29:05 pm
Only one side of the debate is massaging numbers, the fake news vendors. That is where you go wrong trying to paint it as a level playing field of information. It isn't a level playing field, all the information is not the same quality, in just the same way all opinions are not equal.

The stats and numbers do not lie, they are not subject to human interpretation, influence or obfuscation, they are not like opinions that can be spun bent or twisted to an individuals will!

The emphasis on wanting COVID-19 deaths proven to support or refute the COVID-19 restrictions and other actions is also flawed, it's built on the premise that COVID-19 infections that aren't deadly are somehow OK! The evidence suggests the long term effects of long COVID-19 will potentially be far far costlier than the initial deaths. As abhorrent as it may read, a funeral is far far cheaper than a treatment or long term critical care!

You are asserting something yourself here.

That the statistics gathered are reliable accurate, and not embelished in any way shape or form.  That any potential deaths attributed to vaccinations are not attributed to vaccinations but other causes, and that any one who is listed as a covid death, died because they got covid.

Deliberately muddying long covid into there is a bit false.  The current batch are as asymptomatic as it gets unless they are reporting something I am missing.

You are confusing the data with the interpretation here.  You state the data doesnt lie, but those giving us the statistics are interpreting the data themselves, ergo, they create the ability to hide things they dont want to display and vice versa, to pick up things they do.  That vaccine deaths are correlation, and that covid deaths are causation is itself, an interpretation.  Hence why Peru's numbers are changing based on advise from people internationally.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 02, 2021, 03:36:54 pm
You are asserting something yourself here.

That the statistics gathered are reliable accurate, and not embelished in any way shape or form.  That any potential deaths attributed to vaccinations are not attributed to vaccinations but other causes, and that any one who is listed as a covid death, died because they got covid.

Deliberately muddying long covid into there is a bit false.  The current batch are as asymptomatic as it gets unless they are reporting something I am missing.

You are confusing the data with the interpretation here.  You state the data doesnt lie, but those giving us the statistics are interpreting the data themselves, ergo, they create the ability to hide things they dont want to display and vice versa, to pick up things they do.  That vaccine deaths are correlation, and that covid deaths are causation is itself, an interpretation.  Hence why Peru's numbers are changing based on advise from people internationally.
It's not a conspiracy, there are not hundreds of thousands of health workers collaborating to paint a false picture, it's completely untenable for you to make that assertion, and you work in the health industry! Aren't you indirectly arguing that we can't trust you?

The hundreds of thousands collaborating to paint a false picture are the anti-vaxxers, cynics and radicals on FB and Instagram, and the media panders to them for profit.

The reported numbers are not interpreted, they are just reported as is. It's the sceptics and cynics doing the interpretations and distortions.

Long COVID, short COVID, weak COVID, strong COVID, deadly COVID and asymptomatic COVID are all COVID.

The infected here can thank their good fortune, and to date their better outcomes, that they are here in Australia and not India. You can thank your lucky stars you work in the Australian Health System and not Brazil, Peru, India, Turkey, etc., etc., etc..!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 02, 2021, 03:59:24 pm
If we are talking about here in Australia, yes every death is reported and accounted for.

It regards to the global statistics, it doesn't matter as long as the method of collecting them is consistent then the count remains valid.


Writing a death certificate and reporting a death are two different things..
It is a cause of death certificate not a comorbidity certificate.
Incidental diseases or medical conditions that the patient had but did not cause or contribute to the death
should not be included on a ‘death certificate but often they are when the cause of death is not verifiable without an autopsy and not every death that appears on a coroners inbox will get that far especially with the clogged waiting lists.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 02, 2021, 04:09:58 pm
Not sure what you want to assert @ElwoodBlues1‍ , the position you take seems at best arbitrary.

It reads like you assert there are deaths from vaccine that are not counted, and deaths from non-COVID or COVID-Comorbidity that are counted as COVID, you want both sides of the coin to match your call! I'd assert that is a fantasy position, unrelated to the real world.

I'd also revert to @DJC‍ point, the reality is that for your assertions to be true the total deaths would have to deviate significantly from the mean, because deaths caused by the COVID-19 vaccines or COVID-19 Comorbidities did not exist 2 years ago and a significant percentage of such deaths can only be "in addition to" not "instead of" other deaths! In areas where COVID-19 is rampant, that deviation is clear, you do no need any statistical tricks, institutional conspiracies or math errors to hide or expose it!

No matter whether you think the COVID-19 numbers are accurate or not, the baseline trends no longer meet the historical data in some regions by orders of magnitude. This is the power of big data.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 02, 2021, 05:18:27 pm
In the US, people were reported as dying from Covid despite never actually taking a Covid test.

Are Australians that much more honest than the US?
LP assures me that there is no government coverups and misinformation emanating from the US. Something doesn't add up.

I'm not on any side of the fence here, but as soon as someone posts something contrary to LPs opinion it is easily dismissed as fake news. Who does that remind you of?  :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 02, 2021, 05:21:34 pm
Not sure what you want to assert @ElwoodBlues1‍ , the position you take seems at best arbitrary.

It reads like you assert there are deaths from vaccine that are not counted, and deaths from non-COVID or COVID-Comorbidity that are counted as COVID, you want both sides of the coin to match your call! I'd assert that is a fantasy position, unrelated to the real world.

I'd also revert to @DJC‍ point, the reality is that for your assertions to be true the total deaths would have to deviate significantly from the mean, because deaths caused by the COVID-19 vaccines or COVID-19 Comorbidities did not exist 2 years ago and a significant percentage of such deaths can only be "in addition to" not "instead of" other deaths! In areas where COVID-19 is rampant, that deviation is clear, you do no need any statistical tricks, institutional conspiracies or math errors to hide or expose it!

No matter whether you think the COVID-19 numbers are accurate or not, the baseline trends no longer meet the historical data in some regions by orders of magnitude. This is the power of big data.
I'm saying its easy to sign a death certificate by listing other conditions and picking a few as a cause as in the case of older folk as it happens all the time and nobody checks what actually caused the death even though it might have been the vaccine but like I said other conditions listed will be cited as the cause.
A reported death goes to the Coroner and has to be investigated but you wait in line and it could be 12 months or so before the cause is known or no definite cause at all.
How many potential fatal covid vaccine cases do you think would make the coroners list and in turn how many Hospital Registrars and their Grad Doctor teams would just sign the Death Certificate with the usual 3-4 possibilities?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 02, 2021, 07:40:06 pm
You can't defeat the statistics.

If you assert that COVID kills and isn't reported, you can argue these might be people who were otherwise susceptible, and that might well hide or be hard to find in the figures.

But if you claim COVID vaccine kills people here in Australia, that is extra deaths you have to find, but the statistics tell you there is no increase in the death rate.

The stats are not a political opinion, they are not fake news, and they are not lies and more damn lies.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 02, 2021, 08:00:35 pm
Germany are and were renowned for assigning old age deaths to covid ... they admitted it, even if it was clearly some other pre existing condition.  Convenient



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 02, 2021, 08:19:38 pm
In the US, people were reported as dying from Covid despite never actually taking a Covid test.
In the early days of Covid, hospitals in the US didn’t have enough test kits. Doctors were told to use the kits they had on the living to determine who needed treatment. Consequently, the dead weren’t tested. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t be classed as Covid victims if their symptoms warranted it.

Just because a full autopsy isn’t conducted on someone whose head has been obliterated by a shotgun doesn’t mean the cause of death can’t be attributed to gunshot.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 02, 2021, 08:26:03 pm
In the early days of Covid, hospitals in the US didn’t have enough test kits. Doctors were told to use the kits they had on the living to determine who needed treatment. Consequently, the dead weren’t tested. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t be classed as Covid victims if their symptoms warranted it.

Just because a full autopsy isn’t conducted on someone whose head has been obliterated by a shotgun doesn’t mean the cause of death can’t be attributed to gunshot.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, sometimes that's because it's a duck.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 02, 2021, 08:29:04 pm
And US doctors are good at identifying ducks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 02, 2021, 08:31:52 pm
Bilateral Pneumonia and Congenital Heart Failure might yield covid like results though.

Likewise, you can have those things, and also die with covid and be listed as a covid death.

There is scope for some rubbery nature of figures there and that depends on what you want the data to show.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 02, 2021, 08:35:25 pm
In the early days of Covid, hospitals in the US didn’t have enough test kits. Doctors were told to use the kits they had on the living to determine who needed treatment. Consequently, the dead weren’t tested. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t be classed as Covid victims if their symptoms warranted it.

Just because a full autopsy isn’t conducted on someone whose head has been obliterated by a shotgun doesn’t mean the cause of death can’t be attributed to gunshot.
I guess the family of a very healthy person with no family history of blood clots who died a couple of days after their vaccine shot with some new large blood clots on board their body might argue the same thing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 02, 2021, 08:40:32 pm
Bilateral Pneumonia and Congenital Heart Failure might yield covid like results though.

Likewise, you can have those things, and also die with covid and be listed as a covid death.

There is scope for some rubbery nature of figures there and that depends on what you want the data to show.
Not being able to breathe is a common cause of death.....its just a bit rarer when you have a huge Blood clot in the lung of a healthy person as the cause.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 02, 2021, 08:45:50 pm
If you claim the vaccines kill people, they are extra deaths above and beyond the background rate.

Even here in Australia with our rubbish Feds we've handed out 4 million vaccine doses, but there are no extra people dying!

If the vaccine killed 1 in a 1000, that would be 4000 extra deaths, if it killed one in 100,000, that would be at least 40 extra deaths, instead we've seen the death rate drop from the usual baseline!

All claims of people dying from COVID vaccine are fiction, the numbers do not lie, the numbers have no politics or opinion!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 02, 2021, 08:47:43 pm
Are you saying that no very healthy person with no family history of blood clots died of large blood clots before Covid vaccinations started? Aren’t strokes often caused by clots? They & DVT seem to have predated Covid vaccinations.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 02, 2021, 08:51:51 pm
Are you saying that no very healthy person with no family history of blood clots died of large blood clots before Covid vaccinations started? Aren’t strokes often caused by clots? They & DVT seem to have predated Covid vaccinations.
Yes, an uncomfortable fact for some.

The type of clot the vaccine naysayers want to blame for AZ vaccination deaths is exceedingly rare, a tiny fraction of normal clot incidents and a tiny percentage of deaths from clots.

I notice none of the critics have addressed that in Australia more people died some time after being vaccinated by Pfizer, is that because they spent the last few months hitching their wagon to Pfizer? AZ bad, Pfizer good! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 02, 2021, 08:53:42 pm
People keep arguing the extremes. It's always in the middle.
The vaccines are not responsible for all those deaths and it is responsible for more than none of them....albeit indirectly in most cases.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 02, 2021, 08:58:28 pm
Are you saying that no very healthy person with no family history of blood clots died of large blood clots before Covid vaccinations started? Aren’t strokes often caused by clots? They & DVT seem to have predated Covid vaccinations.
I'm saying its irregular and given the Govt have been forced to scrap the Astraz for U50's due to clotting issues you can apply some common sense to people passing away days after receiving the vaccine.
Its interesting how the Government focus has shifted away from AstraZ and are now looking to switch focus from AstraZeneca/Pfizer vaccines to the Moderna vaccine.

The Aus Government has secured a deal with Moderna for 25 million vaccines and are now trying to hasten the onshore construction of MRNA vaccines and there are hopes Moderna could produce their vaccine in Australia as well.
The Moderna deal will see one million doses in the third quarter of the year and nine million in the late fourth quarter with the remaining 15 million to be an advanced MRNA vaccine which will be a variant booster.
Another vote of confidence in AstraZ....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 02, 2021, 08:59:51 pm
Pfizer's (mRNA) primary severe side-effect is myocarditis and pericarditis, there are as many of these events for Pfizer as there is clotting events for AZ.

Yet the health bureaucrats have reserved Pfizer for vaccine candidates with cardiology and haematology issues.

That is a blunder of politics and bureaucracy, and nothing to do with the science.

Another example of politics making a bad decision, like the AZ restrictions, it's the politics of fear and polls.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 02, 2021, 09:10:00 pm
Pfizer's (mRNA) primary severe side-effect is myocarditis and pericarditis, there are as many of these events for Pfizer as there is clotting events for AZ.

Yet the health bureaucrats have reserved Pfizer for vaccine candidates with cardiology and haematology issues.

That is a blunder of politics and bureaucracy, and nothing to do with the science.

Another example of politics making a bad decision, like the AZ restrictions, it's the politics of fear and polls.
Agree the Pfizer isnt the panacea of Vaccines at this stage either.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 02, 2021, 09:28:25 pm
We're saved !!!!

That moron female health idiot in SA has said fans shouldn't touch the ball if it flies over the fence in an upcoming match !!!

FMD.

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 02, 2021, 09:29:55 pm
We're saved !!!!

That moron female health idiot in SA has said fans shouldn't touch the ball if it flies over the fence in an upcoming match !!!

FMD.
 Nobody in the SA crowd should touch their balls, leave the balls to the professionals! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on June 03, 2021, 10:39:41 am
We're saved !!!!

That moron female health idiot in SA has said fans shouldn't touch the ball if it flies over the fence in an upcoming match !!!

FMD.

 

A mate sent me the link to her saying that. I was certain it was a joke but when looking it further realised it wasn’t.  Utter madness.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on June 03, 2021, 11:08:48 am
Agree the Pfizer isnt the panacea of Vaccines at this stage either.....

https://greatgameindia.com/israel-report-pfizer-vaccine-side-effects/

https://twitter.com/i/status/1398367017258962944

nothing to see here!
  :-[  :-[

Meanwhile, another dumb physician for LP to explain how he knows much more than....  :o

https://vimeo.com/490351508
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 03, 2021, 11:29:44 am
https://greatgameindia.com/israel-report-pfizer-vaccine-side-effects/

https://twitter.com/i/status/1398367017258962944

nothing to see here!
  :-[  :-[

Meanwhile, another dumb physician for LP to explain how he knows much more than....  :o

https://vimeo.com/490351508
Watched a video of the the senate committee looking into Covid treatments and Ivermectin was mentioned as achieving positive results overseas and why isnt the TGA looking at it? If I can find the Video I will post it, had a lot of questions on Vaccine safety, legal aspects of the vaccines etc. The Government reps were looking a tad uneasy through it all...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 03, 2021, 12:52:43 pm
The point missed by Flyboy is that COVID-19 illness is a complex suite of secondary infections and comorbidity caused by the virus Sars-CoV-2. He seems unable or unwilling to understand the difference between the disease and the virus for whatever private reason he holds.

Ivermectin used complementary with other medicines for treating those secondary infections and comorbidities is useful, but it has little usefulness in direct treatment of or as a prophylactic for Sars-CoV-2 virus infections. Compared to the Sars-CoV-2 prophylactic effects of the most basic vaccine, Ivermectin is almost useless, and 10x the price$ for a somewhat weakly effective period of just 4 weeks.

It pays to remember when discussing COVID-19, it's secondary effects and it's comorbidities, for example on the contents of death certificates, that it is a complex disease.

Now for those struggling with this concept. I can simplify it;
Sars-CoV-2 causes an infection which can weaken the immune system. That is like the ring leader breaking through the restaurant or 7/11(aka., your body) front doors(aka., your immune system) that had kept the snacks(aka., you) locked away from it's nefarious mates, like fungi, mould and bacteria, and then when it gets in it leaves the doors wide open and shouts out a "Dinner Time" invite! ;D

I think the next step in this mindless social media efficacy debate, will be naysayers highlighting cases where vaccinated people still got COVID-19 disease or a Sars-CoV-2 infection, and claiming the vaccines do not work because they weren't perfect! ;)

Quote from: Dr Roderick McRae Victorian AMA President
“We were all kind of forgetting that we’re sitting on the safe, relatively isolated periphery of a roaring global pandemic,” Dr McRae said. “The iconic Australian ‘she’ll be right’ is very, very dangerous.”

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on June 03, 2021, 07:17:26 pm
Ive hardly posted on this thread but im confused with this latest 'outbreak'

We were told this particular strain spreads at a rapid rate, a rate that we have never experienced before. Then they come out and tell us the sites of exposures from Covid active people is exploding - currently stands at just under 400 sites.

Between 30-50K of law abiding citizens have done what is asked of them and got tested per day since this current lockdown started and as I've tonight's news there is 62 total cases.

So do the math 62 active cases yet there was 400 active sites of exposure of a disease that spreads 'by even walking past someone that has it'!

So we shut down bulk of industry, wear masks inside and out, are locked up in our homes unless we are buying food or medical reason and have to listen to the media tell us daily how things are tracking - with all there usual doom words like  cases are 'spiralling' 'rocketing' early days in the lockdown to now 'exploding exposure sites'.  

Yet only 62 Victoria's have this crazy contagious strain with the first case 10 days ago.

Does something not add up here folks or am I missing something ........
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 03, 2021, 07:21:02 pm
Ive hardly posted on this thread but im confused with this latest 'outbreak'

We were told this particular strain spreads at a rapid rate, a rate that we have never experienced before. Then they come out and tell us the sites of exposures from Covid active people is exploding - currently stands at just under 400 sites.

Between 30-50K of law abiding citizens have done what is asked of them and got tested per day since this current lockdown started and as I've tonight's news there is 62 total cases.

So do the math 62 active cases yet there was 400 active sites of exposure of a disease that spreads 'by even walking past someone that has it'!

So we shut down bulk of industry, wear masks inside and out, are locked up in our homes unless we are buying food or medical reason and have to listen to the media tell us daily how things are tracking - with all there usual doom words like  cases are 'spiralling' 'rocketing' early days in the lockdown to now 'exploding exposure sites'.  

Yet only 62 Victoria's have this crazy contagious strain with the first case 10 days ago.

Does something not add up here folks or am I missing something ........
Put it in the 'short term pain, long term gain' category.

We acted too slowly last year and spent 6 weeks in lockdown, now we are paranoid and shut down too quick.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 03, 2021, 08:20:23 pm

Yet only 62 Victoria's have this crazy contagious strain with the first case 10 days ago.

Does something not add up here folks or am I missing something ........
 Yes, the incubation period, which is why the lockdown runs so much longer than the detections.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on June 03, 2021, 08:22:37 pm
Watched a video of the the senate committee looking into Covid treatments and Ivermectin was mentioned as achieving positive results overseas and why isnt the TGA looking at it? If I can find the Video I will post it, had a lot of questions on Vaccine safety, legal aspects of the vaccines etc. The Government reps were looking a tad uneasy through it all...

Now LP, if you'd read ANY of the papers I've posted (or watched the videos) you'd learn that you really have zero idea.

But that's ok, I picked you some time back. Learnings aren't necessary for one who knows everything.

The difference between the virus and the (alleged) resultant illness....irrelevant to the effectiveness of Ivermectin.

It can and does stop viral replication and it can also help post the fabled cytokine storm, when punters are on death's door in hospital.

Why isn't the TGA looking at it? Well that's a good question, isn't it.....

Indeed, the potential of Ivermectin to counter CV19 was well known well over a year ago....

http://dx.doi.org/10.13140/RG.2.2.26424.57600/2

And no one is suggesting you use Ivermectin in isolation - again, if you'd bother to read, watch and learn...alas.

Safety?

Safer than houses.

Noting no drug is perfect/ideal in all situations.... https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2008/050742s022lbl.pdf

Yet, if Ivermectin and/or HCQ had been recognised as potentially viable treatments back when - then no EUA would have been possible for the experimental vaccines....

QED.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 03, 2021, 08:31:32 pm
Ask Professor Sutton ... who is NOT a professor.  Nothing near it.  Just a "lean on" boy.

Been asked to submit his qualifications.  Won't
 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 03, 2021, 08:54:09 pm
Ive hardly posted on this thread but im confused with this latest 'outbreak'

We were told this particular strain spreads at a rapid rate, a rate that we have never experienced before. Then they come out and tell us the sites of exposures from Covid active people is exploding - currently stands at just under 400 sites.

Between 30-50K of law abiding citizens have done what is asked of them and got tested per day since this current lockdown started and as I've tonight's news there is 62 total cases.

So do the math 62 active cases yet there was 400 active sites of exposure of a disease that spreads 'by even walking past someone that has it'!

So we shut down bulk of industry, wear masks inside and out, are locked up in our homes unless we are buying food or medical reason and have to listen to the media tell us daily how things are tracking - with all there usual doom words like  cases are 'spiralling' 'rocketing' early days in the lockdown to now 'exploding exposure sites'.  

Yet only 62 Victoria's have this crazy contagious strain with the first case 10 days ago.

Does something not add up here folks or am I missing something ........

The thing that had me beat was that the first sign of outbreak with a deadly disease should have been in a healthcare setting.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on June 03, 2021, 09:46:58 pm
Capcom - Look at his LinkedIn profile, it seems to be there except for a gap from graduation to first listed job.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/brett-sutton-4b574456/?originalSubdomain=au
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 03, 2021, 09:59:16 pm
Capcom - Look at his LinkedIn profile, it seems to be there except for a gap from graduation to first listed job.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/brett-sutton-4b574456/?originalSubdomain=au

I would find it hard to believe that the Victorian Chief Health Officer would use Professor in his title if he wasn't one.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 03, 2021, 10:27:52 pm
Not from what I heard tonight guys ... from a real professor with the credentials.  I'd still like to see the evidence.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 03, 2021, 11:11:43 pm
Brett Sutton was awarded an adjunct clinical professorship by Monash Uni so the Vice Chancellor would have given him that on the basis he was an expert with an International standing in some field which I presume is connected with his overseas infectious disease work and he must have written recognized papers on that topic and achieved some acclaim. etc.
You would think there wouldnt be too many Aus Professors with pandemic experience, also some may not realize but leadership is a important part of qualifying for the title....I'd expect Sutton to be recognized beyond the title of Professor when this is finished and he will have a healthy academic career if he wants telling his story and writing medical text on the subject.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 04, 2021, 08:07:13 am
https://theconversation.com/why-do-our-covid-outbreaks-always-seem-to-happen-in-melbourne-randomness-and-bad-luck-161978

https://theconversation.com/why-has-victoria-struggled-more-than-nsw-with-covid-to-a-demographer-theyre-not-that-different-161996
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 04, 2021, 08:17:18 am
And no one is suggesting you use Ivermectin in isolation
Ahh, finally it's starting to sink in, I'm a bit surprised you admit that it's useless against Sars-CoV-2!

I'm not going to discuss those Dr Peru links much, his expertise has done them well, they've made it to No.1 on the deaths per Million chart. I'm a bit surprised you forgot to cross check that before posting, is cut and paste become the lazy way out? ::) https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Well, Dr Peru's lack of startling results is hardly surprising, seeing his treatment regime distils down to an Ivermectin 4mg, with an Aspirin a good feed of beans and a nice lie down, which I gather in Peru probably means you ain't ever getting up again! :o

Not so good for his reputation, but might not be too bad for his wallet, even if he makes nothing from Merck he'll still have swathes of land to his lonesome when his strategy is done!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 04, 2021, 10:31:57 am
We've locked up a state for the most virulent and infectious disease that has spread to 70 odd people in over 400 locations over the period of 3 weeks.

Whilst I am not in favour of "let her rip" the risk analyst in me is looking at this and wondering what the cost benefit analysis looks like.

Of course, I cant forecast what the alternative looks like, but if the modelling that has been done is done with the initial premise that x% of cases end up in ICU, and that data has changed, perhaps the risk profile has also changed to a point, where perhaps the modelling should be looked at over and over again to ensure the risk profile is still correct.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 04, 2021, 10:35:13 am
Of course, I cant forecast what the alternative looks like, but if the modelling that has been done is done with the initial premise that x% of cases end up in ICU, and that data has changed, perhaps the risk profile has also changed to a point, where perhaps the modelling should be looked at over and over again to ensure the risk profile is still correct.
Yes, this is always the case for the science side of it, it has to be a case of continual review and refinement.

It should be the same for policy, but I can't say that is the case.

Also, we need to be careful not to judge the science using the actions of politicians and bureaucrats, the two are not necessarily aligned.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 04, 2021, 02:32:36 pm
Flyboy mentioned COVID-19 Cytokine Storm, actually he referred to it as fabled, so I thought I give you a first-hand account!
Quote
Grant McIntyre is a Dundee orthodontics professor who - after an unbelievable 128 days in the hospital with COVID-19 - managed to almost fully recover. He’s become known as ‘Scotland’s sickest COVID survivor’, and he and his wife have just written a book about the experience called Dying to Live: The Last Roll of the Dice. He told Chris the full story...

Grant - The journey started towards the end of March last year in the first wave of COVID in the UK when I became progressively unwell. It suddenly became pretty clear that I was indeed suffering from COVID, and after three hospital administrations, things took a turn for the worse and I spiralled towards critical illness. For the first 50 days of that, I was unaware of what was going on. Not only did the COVID attack every corner of my body, but my own immune system mounted what was called a 'cytokine storm'. I'd never heard of this before, but it's where the immune system goes into overdrive and effectively attacks every corner of the body as well. At the same time I went to multi-organ failure. Just about every organ in my body was being destroyed. Up to this point I'd been on all sorts of oxygen therapy, and I have no idea just how much oxygen I've used during my treatment, but I'm guessing having just listened to Leith's very interesting interview that it must be quite a significant amount.

I was then put on to, in essence, a heart lung bypass machine. I had acquired a significant number of blood transfusions, and even with the oxygen machine pumping in vast quantities of oxygen into my blood, for some reason my body wasn't able to retain that oxygen and my blood oxygen levels would plummet on a regular basis whilst on the life support. The doctors were running out of options pretty rapidly, and after over a month of being on the ECMO life support machine, it was decided that the only thing left to try would be a massive dose of steroids over a significant number of days. I'm very fortunate for the doctors making that decision, because that was the turning point. And after 39 days of being on life support, I was apparently able to move an eyelid, and by day 42 to lift a finger on command from the medical and nursing staff.
You can listen to the full interview HERE at The Naked Scientist Podcast (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/sites/default/files/media/podcasts/episodes/Naked_Scientists_Show_21.06.01_chap7-10.mp3)

Cytokine storm fabled maybe not.

Calling it fabled is a bit like calling COVID-19 an "alleged" disease, I've heard that somewhere else before as well! ::)
The difference between the virus and the (alleged) resultant illness....irrelevant to the effectiveness of Ivermectin.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 05, 2021, 11:03:22 am
Appears that the karma bus has pulled into Anthony Fauci's driveway.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 05, 2021, 11:09:10 am
Appears that the karma bus has pulled into Anthony Fauci's driveway.
It'll be hard to tell truth from political spin in the coming weeks, once they started discussing China there will be all sorts of rubbish, the Russians have nothing on the Chinese when it comes to blatantly interfering and pressuring people in a public debate.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 05, 2021, 11:13:16 am
What happened to fauci?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on June 05, 2021, 11:21:01 am
Appears that the karma bus has pulled into Anthony Fauci's driveway.

And he's about to be thrown under it, along with others.  A major pivot away from China in the offing? Could be interesting.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 07, 2021, 02:18:02 pm
Can’t see how Fauci can be hung out to dry.

At the start of all this, Trump wanted to lavish praise on the Chinese as he was hoping for a big Trade deal that would secure his re-election. Anyone who thinks he would have behaved differently if only he’d been told x, y, & z just hadn’t bothered to check out his modus operandi in the preceding 3 years. At every turn, he has lavished praise on those who he thinks can be charmed into doing what he wants (e.g. Kim Jong Il) only to resort to vitriol when rebuffed (e.g. Pence).

Nothing was stopping Trump from responding to Covid. He admitted to Bob Woodward early on that Covid was a beast that was much worse than the flu but said he wanted to downplay it to avoid panic. You’d have to think that meant he didn’t want Wall Street to panic so he could boast about a buoyant Stockmarket and economy leading up to the election. He even went to the extent of framing masks as unpatriotic.

It was only when Covid was running rampant that he resorted to plan B: calling it the China virus and blaming China at every turn (while ignoring his own failure to protect his citizens from this attack).

I’m intrigued by what relevance the “origin story” has. Obviously, it would be desirable to get to the bottom of this as we’d then be able to minimise the risk of another pandemic and hone responses should one occur. But others want to sheet home blame and punish China. The difference is between holding a Truth & Reconciliation Commission (using the South African model) and Nuremberg Trials. The problem with the latter is that China is a superpower and won’t let that happen. And China’s imperative of refusing to be drawn into the blame game means it won’t participate in a scientific investigation.

Let’s assume it were possible to prove to everybody’s satisfaction that Covid escaped from the Wuhan Lab. Would that mean China would pay reparations? Not bloody likely. At best, there’d be global condemnation and that would destroy China’s reputation. Instead of being the hero to countries benefiting from Sinovac, it would receive a diplomatic black eye. That would be a great result IMO but that’s why China will do everything in its power to discredit that proof. As a convincing case requires evidence from the Chinese, good luck with that.

How badly China’s reputation would be damaged would depend on the extent of Chinese negligence or malfeasance. Remember that countries all around the world experiment with viruses, usually to get ahead of viruses which may cause pandemics in the future. A stuff up at a lab that results in a virus escaping is certainly far from what one might expect from a Bond villain. The international community would be mildly pissed off and expect that China would tighten its precautions in future. Far more opprobrium would attach to attempts to cover up the outbreak and its origin but China has largely been condemned already for failing to cover up the initial outbreak.

What would be more damaging for China is if it were working with Covid in secret as a biological weapon. There has been some reporting that some time ago some unfortunate miners were sent in to clear out bat droppings without any PPE and contracted Covid-like symptoms. The reporting suggests that this virus was then studied in labs but the Chinese never followed the protocol requiring them to notify WHO about the virus and their research. Was that breach of protocol deliberate and does it suggest military research? Perhaps, but a conspiracy theory doesn’t equal proof. Even the most extreme conspiracy theory would stop short of suggesting a deliberate release of Covid. Infecting your own people in the hope planes would carry the virus overseas would be next-level Bond villainy. It would be easier to infect people overseas and avoid fingers being pointed directly at China.

As it stands, the case that it escaped from the a Chinese lab is merely plausible rather than compelling. The weight of scientific opinion remains that it was a natural contagion.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 07, 2021, 02:28:04 pm
As it stands, the case that it escaped from the a Chinese lab is merely plausible rather than compelling. The weight of scientific opinion remains that it was a natural contagion.
Yes, this is clearly the consensus.

In reality these are two different issues, the origin of the virus and how it spread, but there is a segment of society that is vulnerable to a false premise, the Trump artform. Because they assume a virus escaping from a lab means it's an engineered virus, the false premise, after all what other sort of virus might escape a lab than a man made GMO virus?

The chance of it being an engineered virus does not increase with the chances of it escaping a lab, it's still most likely a naturally evolved contagion regardless of how it spread!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 07, 2021, 03:06:25 pm
All fair points @Mav

But it was seriously stupid for him to flip flop on the origin of covid.  About as ignorant as suggesting a second mask would make no difference to the increase in infections.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 07, 2021, 03:09:50 pm
Contact tracing.....the facts, $24 an hour.....staff member had/made two calls for the shift....yep working hard.
Staff are also not professionals just workers who have lost positions due to covid, in this case airline workers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 07, 2021, 03:58:46 pm
Contact tracing.....the facts, $24 an hour.....staff member had/made two calls for the shift....yep working hard.
Staff are also not professionals just workers who have lost positions due to covid, in this case airline workers.
Nearly all Vic contact tracers are volunteers, we have two girls here(accountants/clerks) at work that do it part time for the extra $.

I'm not sure what is expected, I haven't seen this on offer as a Tafe course!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 07, 2021, 05:45:42 pm
Nearly all Vic contact tracers are volunteers, we have two girls here(accountants/clerks) at work that do it part time for the extra $.

I'm not sure what is expected, I haven't seen this on offer as a Tafe course!
2 calls in a day isnt working hard and the job needs a level of competence, we are talking about peoples lives.
The people i know who are doing it couldnt plug a dog and a bone together much less trace the movements of CoVid infection's.
We are playing for keeps not finding work for the unemployed or those wanting some extra bingo money.
We should be using the army, police or private security operators with some expertise in the area of tracing people...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 07, 2021, 06:16:07 pm
If I had police or the army ringing me up, I’d respond “no comment” to every question.

Although it frustrates me when anti-social arseholes aren’t prosecuted when their reckless behaviour infects others, it’s clearly in the public interest for contact tracers to put them at ease so they give as much info as they can. Police and soldiers probably won’t do that.

“Hello, Detective Sergeant Jones here. Could you tell me your whereabouts over the last 2 weeks?”
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 07, 2021, 06:22:33 pm
https://www.bitchute.com/video/crcXBKSn0fRl/?fbclid=IwAR0z1vDwi1Z4dkYXNefr0PUHWtAKfrrQAHgKRRTvDyW7UXBJjfIu2RFJrgQ

Had this sent to me and its an interesting viewpoint from a very well qualified individual......
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 07, 2021, 08:13:21 pm
This pops up periodically. Sad to say, some people aren’t like fine wine: they age like milk instead. The best example is Rudy Guiliani: does anyone think of him as America’s Mayor any more?

This guy’s whole section was canned by Pfizer. Who knows whether that made him bitter. The start-up he built up and sold for a big profit ended up being a dry well. The purchaser threw out the research and wrote off the cost.

His former colleagues seem nonplussed by his behaviour and say he isn’t the guy they knew.

THIS ARTICLE (https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/health-coronavirus-vaccines-skeptic/)  from Reuter’s notes that in the UK’s 1st lockdown he opined ”there is nothing especially virulent or frightening about covid 19 … it’ll all fade away … Just a common & garden virus, to which the world overreacted” & he predicted in a subsequent tweet that it was “unlikely” the death toll in the UK would reach 40,000.

He also suggested the vaccines would make women infertile, which seems to be something that hasn’t aged well.

But if you find him credible, more power to you.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 07, 2021, 08:47:24 pm
2 calls in a day isnt working hard and the job needs a level of competence, we are talking about peoples lives.
The people i know who are doing it couldnt plug a dog and a bone together much less trace the movements of CoVid infection's.
We are playing for keeps not finding work for the unemployed or those wanting some extra bingo money.
We should be using the army, police or private security operators with some expertise in the area of tracing people...
They girls here at work do this from our office at no cost to anybody except our company, we are happy for them to use their free time, and they do the calls when they aren't busy doing their own jobs. It could easily be they only do two calls in a day if they are busy.

btw., You can't assume a tracing call is 5 minutes, our girls have been on the phone for hours sometimes trying to get information out of people who are either deliberately uncooperative to weirdly vague. A call is like an audit!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 07, 2021, 08:57:41 pm
https://www.bitchute.com/video/crcXBKSn0fRl/?fbclid=IwAR0z1vDwi1Z4dkYXNefr0PUHWtAKfrrQAHgKRRTvDyW7UXBJjfIu2RFJrgQ

Had this sent to me and its an interesting viewpoint from a very well qualified individual......
Phew, .................. what a nutjob, has been publicly campaigning against vaccines since 2018, long long before Sars-CoV-2.

Debunking his claims on COVID, for example the official reports state most children can be completely asymptomatic yet have a high virus load and be very infectious, the science has proven the exact opposite of what he claims is the reality. It turns out the intial studies show this India variant is or might be even far worse in this regard.

PCR is only the preliminary test, it's the dogs nose, after a PCR positive infected individuals have a viral load test by a secondary method different from the initial method.

In Oct 2020, Yeadon famously announced to the world that the pandemic is over, he had been stating since April 2020 that it would fade away.

He is sponsored by Robert F. Kennedy Jr, who is America's most famous anti-vaxxer. India, Brazil, Peru, Cuba, Malaysia, all say hello!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 07, 2021, 09:40:09 pm
They girls here at work do this from our office at no cost to anybody except our company, we are happy for them to use their free time, and they do the calls when they aren't busy doing their own jobs. It could easily be they only do two calls in a day if they are busy.

btw., You can't assume a tracing call is 5 minutes, our girls have been on the phone for hours sometimes trying to get information out of people who are either deliberately uncooperative to weirdly vague. A call is like an audit!
The people we know go into an office and sit there for x amount of hours as they have been laid off from their normal work.
They said its very cruisy and they dont do anything, their major gripe is people provide false numbers ...
According to them its very unprofessional and they expected more in the way of help from people with more expertise.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on June 07, 2021, 10:49:28 pm
Phew, .................. what a nutjob, has been publicly campaigning against vaccines since 2018, long long before Sars-CoV-2.

Debunking his claims on COVID, for example the official reports state most children can be completely asymptomatic yet have a high virus load and be very infectious, the science has proven the exact opposite of what he claims is the reality. It turns out the intial studies show this India variant is or might be even far worse in this regard.

PCR is only the preliminary test, it's the dogs nose, after a PCR positive infected individuals have a viral load test by a secondary method different from the initial method.

In Oct 2020, Yeadon famously announced to the world that the pandemic is over, he had been stating since April 2020 that it would fade away.

He is sponsored by Robert F. Kennedy Jr, who is America's most famous anti-vaxxer. India, Brazil, Peru, Cuba, Malaysia, all say hello!

Love the way you make high and mighty statement and never back it up with ANYTHING.

Takes a special skill.

Kids "can be completely asymptomatic yet have a high virus load and be very infectious" from "official reports" (nice little appeal to authority) but alas, as always, BS.

There's quite a lot of on point (the kids' role) science - likely stuff LP doesn't read (as he already knows it all). For example:

1. https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/early/2021/04/14/peds.2021-050182.full.pdf
2. https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/146/2/e2020004879.long?utm_source=TrendMD&utm_medium=TrendMD&utm_campaign=Pediatrics_TrendMD_0
3. https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/147/1/e2020029736?utm_source=TrendMD&utm_medium=TrendMD&utm_campaign=Pediatrics_TrendMD_0

There's plenty more of the same sort of stuff. None of it even remotely supports LP's 'position'.

PCR tests - well at least he's gently resiling from the veracity of the PCR test. i know a few who have caught COVID - none were subsequently tested with another test? Anyone else?

 And my favourite - the Indian variant - let's let Mike Yeadon explain about variants....

https://lockdownsceptics.org/how-robust-is-covid-immunity/

Quote
To date, no robust scientific evidence proves that any of the variants identified are more transmissible or deadly than the original.12 By definition, variants are clinically identical. Once there is a clinical difference then a new ‘strain’ of virus has emerged. Prior knowledge of viral mutation shows they usually evolve to become less deadly and more transmissible.13 This optimises their chance of spreading, as dead hosts tend not to spread viruses, and very ill hosts have reduced mobility and thus limit contact with others.14

Or this short piece:

https://lockdownsceptics.org/2021/05/13/boris-confirms-nothing-is-ruled-out-in-responding-to-indian-variant-how-worried-should-we-be/

Look forward to your next bout of gaslighting LP.

You have the full repertoire no question, lacking in execution perhaps....

Meanwhile, over in VAERS territory, deaths have now exceeded 5000.

Noting the level of under reporting/non reporting is massive.

A few simple graphs - nothing to see here. Carry on.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 07:49:14 am
A few simple graphs - nothing to see here. Carry on
Credibility is lost @Flyboy77 the moment those pseudo reports start quoting worthless VAERS data.

More and more people now know that like the UK Yellow Card system VAERS is a system of voluntary reporting, anybody can file a report even it seems the dead, insane or a cadre of anti-vaxxers!

Quoting VAERS and using it's data as the basis for an argument is like asking an anti-vaxxer for an unbiased opinion on hypodermics! ;D

It's interesting to to do some research on what asymptomatic and super spreader events really mean, the area of branching maths covers this network phenomenon and it's important to note that the worst case comes from moderate levels of infectivity and transmission. It seems to suggest that at either end of the extreme, very low or very high transmission will result in a disease that dies out, and it relates to the timing of infection. This seems to be common sense, a patient has to be infectious enough to transmit but not so infectious that they are detected very quickly before they can move too far. With adults and children the variation in shedding virus can be significant, several orders of magnitude with the worst being 1,000,000x more shedding than the least. It truly seems the worst case is the moderately infectious spreader who escapes scrutiny for an extended period and continues to move through society.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 08, 2021, 09:28:07 am
Are you suggesting anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers would flood a reporting system to push their agenda as they’re doing with Google reviews & the like?
Business blacklisted and hit with scathing reviews over Covid stance (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/businesses-blacklisted-and-hit-with-scathing-reviews-over-covid-stance-20210604-p57y6l.html), The Age
Can’t have business owners abide by the law now can we?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 09:56:38 am
Yeadon, a hero of the anti-vaxxers, builds many of his claims on a single false premise, which he repeats ad nauseam.

That false premise is that someone with a high enough viral load to be contagious and shed virus as a super spreader would be too sick to work or circulate in society. I believe he has made that claim in all his main videos, of which there are several versions of the same subject, although I have not personally watched all of them to confirm that.

This concept of someone with a high viral load being too sick to spread disease is the base false premise on which nearly all his other spurious claims such as the infamous "fade away of the pandemic" are based.

Melbourne delivery driver says hello! :o

None of his supporters question the allegation that the pandemic lockdown might have cost Yeadon and his team as much as an estimated EU$430M, because the lockdown delayed trials of a drug his group had been involved in inventing, a drug to treat eczema. That delay allegedly resulted in the R&D contract expiring before the drug's benchmarks were reached, benchmarks that would have seen him paid in full. Other commentators claim the trials were already showing failed results, and his product wouldn't have made the benchmark anyway because it's efficacy was poor. Bad luck for him, bad luck for his investors, another failed bet, but this is no reason for him to burn down the house to try and save a scrap of his reputation. I suppose if this is true, he and his consortium can always go and sell his new drug in Brazil, maybe he should sell that to his investors!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 08, 2021, 10:14:48 am
I just want to point out, that for an extremely infectious virus and pandemic prompting roughly 5 months worth of lockdowns and restrictions to life in Melbourne our virus numbers and threat doesn't quite measure up 1.5 years into this.

Thats not to say that covid isn't a killer, but the reaction may not be commensurate with the threat said virus poses.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 10:17:49 am
I just want to point out, that for an extremely infectious virus and pandemic prompting roughly 5 months worth of lockdowns and restrictions to life in Melbourne our virus numbers and threat doesn't quite measure up 1.5 years into this.

Thats not to say that covid isn't a killer, but the reaction may not be commensurate with the threat said virus poses.
Unfortunately, I think the actions and reactions are a function of the behaviour of the virus and the behaviour of society.

Melbourne is has become a bit notorious in the anti-vaxxer / anti-masker stakes, and that sort of socialist behaviour (almost social fascism) is highlighted by the post from @Mav
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 08, 2021, 10:19:37 am
Unfortunately, I think the actions and reactions are a function of the behaviour of the virus and the behaviour of society.

Melbourne is has become a bit notorious in the anti-vaxxer / anti-masker stakes.

Even so that would mean covid should be running riot and it isn't.  Im hearing people who initially took this very seriously turn around and scoff at it now.

For the most part they make valid observations.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 10:22:55 am
Even so that would mean covid should be running riot and it isn't.  Im hearing people who initially took this very seriously turn around and scoff at it now.

For the most part they make valid observations.
@Thryleon‍ isn't that a confusion of cause and effect, the observation must fit the order of real world events?

I hear a lot of people hurting, but it's not easy to say who must pay the price for this, who volunteers, it seems 'the they' always want to blame the other.

But just as "We are Carlton", ............... "We are Melbourne" and "We are Australia", our current circumstance is a compounding of Federal, State and Social issues.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 08, 2021, 10:28:52 am
We had nigh on 800 deaths in Victoria before it was brought under control by lockdowns and the like. The UK, US and most recently India show what uncontrolled spread can do.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 10:35:10 am
We had nigh on 800 deaths in Victoria before it was brought under control by lockdowns and the like. The UK, US and most recently India show what uncontrolled spread can do.
Yes, but uncontrolled is the critical term, in fairness to @Thryleon‍ it's fair to question the amplitude of the Victorian response as long as we get the order and magnitude of events correct.

I note there are aspects of the anti-lockdown debate that get the cause and effect and amplitude of viral transmission wrong, and that can be critical in assessing what level of action is necessary. The problem being of course that the Sars-CoV-2 R0 remains substantial and well beyond influenza or other commonly experienced viral infections. If you release restrictions, Sars-CoV-2 is not like Influenza, Sars-Cov_2 is far far worse. It only appears like Influenza at the moment because of the restrictions, not in spite of them!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 08, 2021, 11:19:29 am
But we can’t be too cute in trying to pare back the controls to the bone. Better to be too tough than too lenient. I’m sure there are people who would say that lockdowns weren’t really needed to address the rising body count in Victoria. Maybe we just needed to ramp up contact tracing and stand 2m apart rather than 1.5m.

The deficiency in contact tracing has been demonstrated by this latest outbreak. Covid was spiking but the carriers hadn’t tested positive or sought medical treatment. Contact tracers had nothing to trace.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 08, 2021, 11:31:25 am
I just want to point out, that for an extremely infectious virus and pandemic prompting roughly 5 months worth of lockdowns and restrictions to life in Melbourne our virus numbers and threat doesn't quite measure up 1.5 years into this.

Thats not to say that covid isn't a killer, but the reaction may not be commensurate with the threat said virus poses.
Fair points Thry, and as you would know well it's not like hospital ER's and ICU's are full of Covid or respitory illness patients at the minute.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 11:32:31 am
Fair points Thry, and as you would know well it's not like hospital ER's and ICU's are full of Covid or respitory illness patients at the minute.
@ElwoodBlues1‍ is that as a result of or in spite of lockdown?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 08, 2021, 11:54:36 am
@ElwoodBlues1‍ is that as a result of or in spite of lockdown?
All I know is that it's just normal business in those areas, lockdown always reduces road and workplace accidents as you would expect.
Re: Contact tracing... NSW use trained health care staff to supervise and conduct strategy with most of their tracing teams.As you would expect when there is a measles outbreak those cases are traced and hence you need a level of health care experience when questioning and asking about symptoms etc. NSW have resourced these areas better and hence have the better system.
Victoria cut funding a while back and don't have enough trained health care staff.When the pandemic hit we were under manned and couldn't cope,paying peanuts means monkeys and the Vic Government have dropped the ball on contact tracing with its under resourcing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on June 08, 2021, 12:41:33 pm
We had nigh on 800 deaths in Victoria before it was brought under control by lockdowns and the like. The UK, US and most recently India show what uncontrolled spread can do.

Even without covid 99% of them would be dead by now. It's the same as the vaccine blood clot argument.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 12:42:39 pm
All I know is that it's just normal business in those areas, lockdown always reduces road and workplace accidents as you would expect.
Re: Contact tracing... NSW use trained health care staff to supervise and conduct strategy with most of their tracing teams.As you would expect when there is a measles outbreak those cases are traced and hence you need a level of health care experience when questioning and asking about symptoms etc. NSW have resourced these areas better and hence have the better system.
Victoria cut funding a while back and don't have enough trained health care staff.When the pandemic hit we were under manned and couldn't cope,paying peanuts means monkeys and the Vic Government have dropped the ball on contact tracing with its under resourcing.
Yes, but how does this affect the current situation?

We had a quarantine leak in SA that put the boots into Victoria, with a delivery driver spending 12 days traipsing around Metro-Melbourne and some Vic regional areas while infectious. He could have come from NSW, WA, Qld, the origin is irrelevant, and the 12 days before tracing started was critical.

But how do you trace and track before the event, the only way to do that is with a check-in compliant public and here in Vic we do not have that, we have dissenters instead and those targeting compliant small business owners with social media vitriol. ............. We are Victoria!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 08, 2021, 01:04:52 pm
@Thryleon‍ isn't that a confusion of cause and effect, the observation must fit the order of real world events?

I hear a lot of people hurting, but it's not easy to say who must pay the price for this, who volunteers, it seems 'the they' always want to blame the other.

But just as "We are Carlton", ............... "We are Melbourne" and "We are Australia", our current circumstance is a compounding of Federal, State and Social issues.

I know what you are saying, but follow the below logic:



IF this virus is the threat it is.

AND we have a lot of people being not compliant with masks, gathering in spite of lockdowns, no check ins at contact tracing etc.

THEN we should have a bunch of cases that are unaccounted for in contact tracing, and a lot more COVID around in the case of a pandemic and an infectious disease (although this can be explained away by people not being tested). 

THEREFORE - Its only a matter of time until a phantom case tests positive ADMITTED IN HOSPITAL because they have contracted COVID and got sick.


IF they aren't sick, and they are positive, and they don't spread this to anyone that ends up sick or in hospital is this threat worth worrying about really?

They are all valid observations, that seem to just be ignored for the most part.

The bit I have bolded here is the one that is a real head scratcher to me. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 01:15:17 pm
I know what you are saying, but follow the below logic:

IF this virus is the threat it is.

AND we have a lot of people being not compliant with masks, gathering in spite of lockdowns, no check ins at contact tracing etc.

THEN we should have a bunch of cases that are unaccounted for in contact tracing, and a lot more COVID around in the case of a pandemic and an infectious disease (although this can be explained away by people not being tested). 

THEREFORE - Its only a matter of time until a phantom case tests positive ADMITTED IN HOSPITAL because they have contracted COVID and got sick.


IF they aren't sick, and they are positive, and they don't spread this to anyone that ends up sick or in hospital is this threat worth worrying about really?

They are all valid observations, that seem to just be ignored for the most part.

The bit I have bolded here is the one that is a real head scratcher to me.
I'm not sure it is quite valid, I think the part missing from that logic is the delay between being exposed and becoming infectious, an infected person is not instantaneously infectious.

The purpose of contract tracing to isolate individuals before they become infectious, this time around that seems to be working not failing as some claim. And we have cases of community transmission traced and confirmed. Unaccounted for cases could well be a failing of contract tracing, or deliberate non-compliance, not necessarily related to the original source or method of transmission.

I see this as a different debate to discussing lockdown. Lockdown is more about compliance and societal behaviour, once cases are identified and isolated if the public was truly complaint we might not need lockdown at all. In that regard purpose of lockdown is to limit the rate of spread so that contract tracing has time to do it's work.

Finally, let's not write off the effects of vaccinations and anti-virals, which all combine to deliver a different R0. As that situation improves, it must surely have an impact diminishing the need for lockdown, I'd suggest the surge in vaccinations is a growing public awareness of that fact. The dissenting anti-vaxx movement if followed would result in the exact opposite.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 08, 2021, 01:18:48 pm
The problem is lag time. IIRC, the 60 & 70 year olds did ultimately seek medical assistance, with the latter placed on a ventilator. But they did so reluctantly after battling Covid for close to 2 weeks (and travelling around Melbourne like tourists).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 08, 2021, 01:25:49 pm
I'm not sure it is quite valid, I think the part missing from that logic is the delay between being exposed and becoming infectious, an infected person is not instantaneously infectious.

The purpose of contract tracing to isolate individuals before they become infectious, this time around that seems to be working not failing as some claim. And we have cases of community transmission traced and confirmed. Unaccounted for cases could well be a failing of contract tracing, or deliberate non-compliance, not necessarily related to the original source or method of transmission.

I see this as a different debate to discussing lockdown. Lockdown is more about compliance and societal behaviour, once cases are identified and isolated if the public was truly complaint we might not need lockdown at all. In that regard purpose of lockdown is to limit the rate of spread so that contract tracing has time to do it's work.

Finally, let's not write off the effects of vaccinations and anti-virals, which all combine to deliver a different R0. As that situation improves, it must surely have an impact diminishing the need for lockdown, I'd suggest the surge in vaccinations is a growing public awareness of that fact. The dissenting anti-vaxx movement if followed would result in the exact opposite.

Dissenters would never get tested though.  They would spread it and it would only become apparent once someone ended up in hospital.

This outcome should have happened already really.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 01:26:24 pm
The problem is lag time. IIRC, the 60 & 70 year olds did ultimately seek medical assistance, with the latter placed on a ventilator. But they did so reluctantly after battling Covid for close to 2 weeks (and travelling around Melbourne like tourists).
This highlights the problem with early stages of COVID-19 illness, it can present like a benign cold or allergy, and then by the time secondary effects start to kick in and people are forced to present at hospital it can be very very serious indeed, and maybe too late for some!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 01:26:58 pm
Dissenters would never get tested though.  They would spread it and it would only become apparent once someone ended up in hospital.

This outcome should have happened already really.
It did, that is exactly what happened as @Mav points out, although in the current case they weren't deliberate dissenters just people oblivious to their illness!

Not wanting to persecute anybody, if they had followed the "Get Tested" mantra, instead of being indifferent, in denial or complacent, we might not be in lockdown now!

An associate pointed out another interesting COVID-19 effect which must have an impact. As a casual inner city observer he's noted from working in a inner city the tendency to avoid people who seem ill or unwell, people who sneeze or cough, they are being given a very wide birth by many, this must have some limiting effect.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 08, 2021, 01:28:35 pm
It did Thry, that is exactly what happened!

When?  I missed that part.  Was that last year?  Shouldn't the first sign on news have been a man tests positive in hospital?.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 01:32:22 pm
When?  I missed that part.  Was that last year?  Shouldn't the first sign on news have been a man tests positive in hospital?.
Well historically the very first case as a man returned from Wuhan and presenting as ill before testing positive in Monash Medical Center. Long before Vic was in lockdown, long before the boats or planes came home.

@Mav is talking about this current outbreak.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 08, 2021, 01:33:27 pm
@LP I am talking now.

If people are thumbing their noses at the outbreak like you asserted earlier, we should see this happening frequently amongst the dissenters to use your own language.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on June 08, 2021, 01:34:24 pm
Had my 5th covid test today and they did it differently. 2 swabs on each side of the throat and up each nostril, those nanobots will be taking over my body soon.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 01:34:56 pm
@LP I am talking now.

If people are thumbing their noses at the outbreak like you asserted earlier, we should see this happening frequently amongst the dissenters to use your own language.
Then that is the case @Mav refers to, community transmission from a couple of elderly tourists, who eventually presented as unwell. We are perhaps lucky they became unwell enough to present, what if they hadn't?

But I'm not sure they are the root cause, I believe they are a secondary group infected from the returned driver.

Not everybody will become so unwell to require hospitalisation. COVID-19 has a spectrum of illness, perhaps the worse case for transmission would be an initial group of moderately ill individuals who ignored testing and rocked up for work regardless. Like the infamous Portsea set, claiming that it's just a cold while having their own house retrofit with a private ICU!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on June 08, 2021, 03:00:58 pm
Delta strain came from hotel quarantine here in Melbourne, no one to blame this time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 08, 2021, 03:40:16 pm
Really? How about Scotty from Marketing? The Australian Constitution specifically states the Federal Parliament has power over quarantine. The Quarantine Act allows the government to quarantine persons flying into Australia. But this Government pulled a Trump and left it to the States to do its job. And then bitched and moaned about being asked to fund fit-for-purpose facilities.

The very first repatriation flight into Melbourne had a Sri Lankan man who was infected with the Delta variant. And he goes to a hotel rather than a quarantine facility. How predictable was that?

Don’t forget that the South Australian hotel quarantine system infected a man returning to Victoria. This isn’t a Victorian issue: it’s a hotel quarantine issue.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on June 08, 2021, 03:46:19 pm
Why are we the covid state?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 08, 2021, 04:04:34 pm
So you’re blaming the South Australians now ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 08, 2021, 04:53:37 pm
Why are we the covid state?
Lack of funding in health management, like I said NSW didnt cut their budget and had decent numbers of trained healthcare staff involved in tracing, we have airline workers, clerks and tax drivers doing it for bingo money.
Quarantine was Dan again doing it his way instead of taking up the offer of military/police help, his private security firm staff were too busy screwing the Quaranteeny's and letting them out on the town..and the company hit us up for a couple of mill into the bargain. Just been one feck up after another.....sort of stuff you expect in a 3rd world crap hole like Peru. The other States dont trust us either.. a couple of cases here and they lock the borders real quick because they know Dan and team will be struggling to contain an outbreak.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 08, 2021, 05:23:22 pm
Then that is the case @Mav refers to, community transmission from a couple of elderly tourists, who eventually presented as unwell. We are perhaps lucky they became unwell enough to present, what if they hadn't?

But I'm not sure they are the root cause, I believe they are a secondary group infected from the returned driver.

Not everybody will become so unwell to require hospitalisation. COVID-19 has a spectrum of illness, perhaps the worse case for transmission would be an initial group of moderately ill individuals who ignored testing and rocked up for work regardless. Like the infamous Portsea set, claiming that it's just a cold while having their own house retrofit with a private ICU!

For every 1 admission, there would be how many people confirmed positive LP?

How far does this spread before it actually shows up, and when you consider that for a moment, ponder a scenario where we are talking about Dissenters, who protest in the city, refuse to wear a mask, dont hand hygiene, to check in with QR codes, and in general, dont get vaccinated.  They spread this virus how far and wide, and dont get tested, which results in further outbreaks and infections that are borderline traceable.

We should see "a lot" of spot fires popping up.  We arent, we just had 73 days without a positive case.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 08, 2021, 06:36:08 pm
Quarantine was Dan again doing it his way instead of taking up the offer of military/police help
Police help? The police commissioner made it clear the police were only prepared to be the 2nd line of defence, i.e. if someone escaped from quarantine, they’d find them and bring them back. Other than that, they were involved in the “ring of steel” to keep Melburnians from fleeing to regional areas. As for the military, it seemed Scotty from Marketing was quite willing to use them as political pawns, threatening to pull them out if Victoria didn’t toe the Federal government’s line on lockdowns and the like. He refused to honour a request for a nominated number of soldiers at one stage to man the borders.

And yes, there should be more funding for health and in particular pandemic preparedness. That’s what happens when Jeff Kennett’s Razor gangs cut things to the bone in the health system.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 08, 2021, 07:10:40 pm
.... yet we never got a decent investigation into Victoria's farkups .... Like a RC

It's always been and continues to be someone else's fault. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 08:01:23 pm
For every 1 admission, there would be how many people confirmed positive LP?

How far does this spread before it actually shows up, and when you consider that for a moment, ponder a scenario where we are talking about Dissenters, who protest in the city, refuse to wear a mask, dont hand hygiene, to check in with QR codes, and in general, dont get vaccinated.  They spread this virus how far and wide, and dont get tested, which results in further outbreaks and infections that are borderline traceable.

We should see "a lot" of spot fires popping up.  We arent, we just had 73 days without a positive case.
What are you talking about, there are 80 active COVID-19 infection cases in Melbourne at the moment!

How many require hospital and other actions depends on how early they are found, it is not lock step get infected go to hospital!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 08, 2021, 08:27:23 pm
Police help? The police commissioner made it clear the police were only prepared to be the 2nd line of defence, i.e. if someone escaped from quarantine, they’d find them and bring them back. Other than that, they were involved in the “ring of steel” to keep Melburnians from fleeing to regional areas. As for the military, it seemed Scotty from Marketing was quite willing to use them as political pawns, threatening to pull them out if Victoria didn’t toe the Federal government’s line on lockdowns and the like. He refused to honour a request for a nominated number of soldiers at one stage to man the borders.

And yes, there should be more funding for health and in particular pandemic preparedness. That’s what happens when Jeff Kennett’s Razor gangs cut things to the bone in the health system.
Jeff Kennett did a lot wrong but thats a long bow to draw in regard recent events . Cuts that affect the ability of professional contract tracing in Victoria fall squarely on the shoulders of Dan Andrews who as former health minister new exactly what he was doing. Despite warnings from the DHHS in May 2019 that Victoria’s public health team responsible for contact tracing communicable diseases was dangerously understaffed compared to other states, by March in 2020 the division was pared down to only 14 members. Victoria, a state with 6.4 million people, had only six physicians in its health protection branch, compared to 24 in New South Wales and 17 in Queensland.
Andrews was the health minister trying to get rid of nurse-patient ratios and undermine other basic conditions using Howards work choices to do it..
The new Footscray Hospital is another furphy....Its portrayed as the Andrews Govt looking after the struggling west but in fact is a Public-Private partnership which just allows the Privates to rip off the public purse and wont be helping the western suburbs battler. Frankston Hospital has been promised an overhaul given its in such a mess and didnt have enough PPE gear at the height of CoVid. It often has its ER overcrowded and trolleys in the corridors but dont think Dan is looking after those poor sods in Franga...yep another Public-Private partnership which will see more nose jobs and face lifts than dealing with that under-resourced ER dept.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on June 08, 2021, 10:18:15 pm
Jeff Kennett did a lot wrong but thats a long bow to draw in regard recent events . Cuts that affect the ability of professional contract tracing in Victoria fall squarely on the shoulders of Dan Andrews who as former health minister new exactly what he was doing. Despite warnings from the DHHS in May 2019 that Victoria’s public health team responsible for contact tracing communicable diseases was dangerously understaffed compared to other states, by March in 2020 the division was pared down to only 14 members. Victoria, a state with 6.4 million people, had only six physicians in its health protection branch, compared to 24 in New South Wales and 17 in Queensland.
Andrews was the health minister trying to get rid of nurse-patient ratios and undermine other basic conditions using Howards work choices to do it..
The new Footscray Hospital is another furphy....Its portrayed as the Andrews Govt looking after the struggling west but in fact is a Public-Private partnership which just allows the Privates to rip off the public purse and wont be helping the western suburbs battler. Frankston Hospital has been promised an overhaul given its in such a mess and didnt have enough PPE gear at the height of CoVid. It often has its ER overcrowded and trolleys in the corridors but dont think Dan is looking after those poor sods in Franga...yep another Public-Private partnership which will see more nose jobs and face lifts than dealing with that under-resourced ER dept.

Some great people work in ER at Frankston and despite those shortcomings I would happily go there again.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 08, 2021, 10:32:19 pm
Some great people work in ER at Frankston and despite those shortcomings I would happily go there again.

My daughter has a very good friend who works there...the ERs are all run by good people in the public system but they
dont get the credit or the resources they deserve and the poorer maligned areas are the worst funded.
When they scrapped the bypass code yellow they just heaped more pressure on the ER's, Frankston being one of the worst hit with a pile up of ER patients....hopefully Andrews can at least throw some money at that area and improve things.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 08, 2021, 10:50:16 pm
EB, if someone in the family goes out and sells off the family assets, you can go out and buy them all back but unless you’re flush with cash that’s easier said than done. It’s easy for guys like Kennet to slash and burn and claim the credit for slashing the budget. It’s not so easy to reverse those cuts when State Governments can’t print money or put up income taxes. It’s even harder when outgoing Liberal Governments try to blow a hole in the budget by signing $15b road construction contracts on the eve of an election.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 09, 2021, 09:31:51 pm
We’re now sending infected Victorians on road trips through NSW and Qld to test their contact tracing. She managed to elude detection for 12 days before she had to go hospital. Winning!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on June 09, 2021, 09:53:17 pm
My daughter has a very good friend who works there...the ERs are all run by good people in the public system but they
dont get the credit or the resources they deserve and the poorer maligned areas are the worst funded.
When they scrapped the bypass code yellow they just heaped more pressure on the ER's, Frankston being one of the worst hit with a pile up of ER patients....hopefully Andrews can at least throw some money at that area and improve things.

A very good mate is a specialist there, doubt it would be the same person but they would know each other. He was the director of the unit at one stage.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on June 10, 2021, 01:41:02 am
I hope the road tripper gets the book chucked at them. What an idiotic act. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 10, 2021, 10:52:05 am
Unfortunately, to persuade them to be truthful about where they’ve been, they’ve probably been told they won’t be prosecuted. On the other hand, New Zealand can throw the book at the 3 Melburnians who tried to sneak in as presumably they were caught at the airport so contact tracing isn’t an issue.

One benefit of a lockdown is that it gets rid of a few arseholes.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 10, 2021, 11:04:30 am
Meanwhile in Pyonyang, get caught with a south korean dvd movie on a USB and you're shot in front of your family. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 10, 2021, 02:39:30 pm
I hope the road tripper gets the book chucked at them. What an idiotic act.
Yet TBC, it's come out they were allegedly travelling under an official exemption because they were moving house to a new job in Qld.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 10, 2021, 04:49:42 pm
https://au.news.yahoo.com/australian-woman-dies-after-astra-zeneca-vaccine-044909524.html
So its safe for over 50's to have the Astraz?...I thought only younger people were at risk.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 10, 2021, 05:05:14 pm
Yet TBC, it's come out they were allegedly travelling under an official exemption because they were moving house to a new job in Qld.
But which government issued the exemption? Surely a road trip thru NSW & Qld would have needed exemptions from both NSW & Qld govts to cross the borders as well as an exemption from Vic to leave the lockdown area ...

The suggestion in media reports was that the route taken seemed to be well chosen if the desire had been to avoid border checkpoints.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 10, 2021, 07:42:13 pm
But which government issued the exemption? Surely a road trip thru NSW & Qld would have needed exemptions from both NSW & Qld govts to cross the borders as well as an exemption from Vic to leave the lockdown area ...

The suggestion in media reports was that the route taken seemed to be well chosen if the desire had been to avoid border checkpoints.
 Were the borders actually closed?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 10, 2021, 07:44:11 pm
Were the borders actually closed?
I thought I read they were.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 10, 2021, 07:47:17 pm
So its safe for over 50's to have the Astraz?...I thought only younger people were at risk.
Age makes no difference, the side effects from any of the available vaccines are applicable to all ages with an ever so slight increase in risk for women on prescription birth control.

The age things floated around are in general a political / bureaucratic decision.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on June 10, 2021, 09:38:06 pm
Got my astra today, no side effects.  It was good to see so many people getting the jab in Hastings. The clinic I went to were doing 250 a day.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 11, 2021, 01:06:29 am
Age makes no difference, the side effects from any of the available vaccines are applicable to all ages with an ever so slight increase in risk for women on prescription birth control.

The age things floated around are in general a political / bureaucratic decision.
Why did they stop Astraz for u50's?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 11, 2021, 08:09:05 am
Why did they stop Astraz for u50's?

Politics, not science.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 11, 2021, 08:10:33 am
Why did they stop Astraz for u50's?
They made that decision before they had all the data, based on the German 30s that suffered clots, the alleged link had been made between birth control and clots. Once Germany blinked, Europe and the UK followed, before they had the numbers. Now it looks like the data suggests that overall the vaccines reduce total clotting cases per million, however, there is no win in politics to sell that message.

In reality, it shouldn't even be males in this restriction, it should just be females on birth control and even then the link is tenuous, but I gather they fear that would appear sexist. The feminists would accuse men of hogging the vaccine!

In any case, the latest data coming through suggests they now have a good handle on diagnosis and as such treating this, it won't prevent 100% of cases just as the vaccine won't stop 100% of COVID-19, but it will further reduce the severe risks.

The risks are so so low @ElwoodBlues1‍, if we applied the same level of fear to football, nobody would ever take enough risk to score a goal! We'd all be nil all draw soccer fans instead of AFL, maybe there is something in that when you look at the regions that first initiated the restrictions? :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 11, 2021, 08:15:18 am
Politics, not science.
The politics of fear, humans are so so bad at understanding risk, but for millions of years that has probably served our ancestors well so it persists in evolution! Our "common sense" is hyper tuned for a false positive on risk!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 11, 2021, 08:20:57 am
https://theconversation.com/what-are-the-side-effects-of-the-pfizer-vaccine-an-expert-explains-161667

https://theconversation.com/a-history-of-blood-clots-is-not-usually-any-reason-to-avoid-the-astrazeneca-vaccine-161889
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 11, 2021, 08:29:18 am
I've got to wonder what are a real long term effects of this pandemic, for me beyond the tragedy of lives lost, I can see a shift in power and economics.

There is significant irony in the fact that during the pandemic that has economically destroyed so many lives, the wealthier have gotten even wealthier! That doesn't bode well for a peaceful society.

If I had the cash I'd be demonstrating my philanthropy now more than ever, or else I might well be strung up in the next few years when the real economic pain starts to hit the masses globally.

Historically, the states solution to this problem is war.

Somehow, I don't see Scotty from Marketing as our Winston! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 11, 2021, 09:45:31 am
The politics of fear, humans are so so bad at understanding risk, but for millions of years that has probably served our ancestors well so it persists in evolution! Our "common sense" is hyper tuned for a false positive on risk!

Our lockdowns are the perfect example of misunderstanding risk.

The numbers game we look at is very one sided approach without equating it to risk.  From this recent lockdown we have 2 vaccinated people who are asymptomatic admitted from a aged care setting.  All the others are either mildly symptomatic or asymptomatic too with 0 hospital admission from the spread requiring care.

We just had 2 weeks of lockdown to stop the spread.

A basic risk analysis analysing the data of positive vs exposure sites vs outcome shows the lockdowns might be a bridge too far and there might be better ways to manage the pandemic without turning life off.

Those willing to sacrifice freedom for safety deserve neither freedom nor safety.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 11, 2021, 10:37:01 am
Our lockdowns are the perfect example of misunderstanding risk.

Those willing to sacrifice freedom for safety deserve neither freedom nor safety.
Interesting, is the perception of risk to freedom and civil liberty proportional and rational?

If we had more people willing to be vaccinated, wear masks and follow simple restrictive measures would we need the lockdowns at all?

Instead we have civil disobedience, protests and victimisation of innocent traders. Protests that by the way do not just target Sars-CoV-2 vaccine, but all vaccines!

It reflects pretty poorly on our society, we do not live under Mussolini, yet the reactions to his sort of dictatorship seems to survive to this day.

Interesting, in the UK the Health Authorities suggested Lockdowns should be greatly limited, not because they didn't want to control the pandemic but because the UK's experience from war years is that civil compliance breaks down after a few weeks of restriction at best, and when that happens complacency sets in and the problem becomes bigger.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 11, 2021, 11:15:43 am
Interesting, is the perception of risk to freedom and civil liberty proportional and rational?

If we had more people willing to be vaccinated, wear masks and follow simple restrictive measures would we need the lockdowns at all?

Instead we have civil disobedience, protests and victimisation of innocent traders. Protests that by the way do not just target Sars-CoV-2 vaccine, but all vaccines!

It reflects pretty poorly on our society, we do not live under Mussolini, yet the reactions to his sort of dictatorship seems to survive to this day.

Interesting, in the UK the Health Authorities suggested Lockdowns should be greatly limited, not because they didn't want to control the pandemic but because the UK's experience from war years is that civil compliance breaks down after a few weeks of restriction at best, and when that happens complacency sets in and the problem becomes bigger.


LP, this latest lockdown had everyone home for 2 weeks, the virus made its way into an aged care setting, and infected two people whom had been vaccinated, and were taken to hospital to seperate them from the rest of their community.

All the while we had 600 plus exposure sites, for less than 100 cases of community transmission in a month resulting in 0 hospital admissions to treat ill people.

Basic risk assessment tells me, that the perceived risk and actual risk doesn't quite measure up.



Risk analysis is all about the data.  The data shows that the risk profile of this disease is actually very low.  We have that data after 1.5 years of living through months of lockdowns, and rather extreme protection measures (last year, I could forgive this, but this year, it looks a bit bonkers).

Why do I have to wear a mask to walk my dog with minimal community transmission?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 11, 2021, 11:21:29 am
As an epidemiologist said a long time ago, a stitch in time saves 9.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 11, 2021, 11:26:17 am
Why do I have to wear a mask to walk my dog with minimal community transmission?
Because of the civil disobedience!

Personally, I think your argument is built on a disregard or neglect for the effects of lockdown, it seems to be asserting that the low cases numbers are a sign that lockdown is not needed and not an effect of lockdown. To me this is a confusion of cause and effect, the order of events matter.

@Thryleon‍ I'm not trying to start a war on this subject, or in the other thread for that matter, but ultimately I see these issues as a matter of trust in authority or expertise. I understand your scepticism on the data and vaccines, and I think you are correct to ask the questions, for that matter science is built on asking questions. But I'm not sure it's right to pick and choose which authorities or which bits of data to trust, regardless of the subject matter. It's very important to be consistent, perhaps even more important for making progress to be consistent than correct. It's consistency that delivers traceability and repeatability, and then eventually after even more questions a truth.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 11, 2021, 11:33:47 am
If we decide to go from an elimination strategy to managing Covid in the community, wearing masks, social distancing and restricting gatherings become more important, not less. Obviously, vaccinating to a level to ensure herd immunity would be preferable.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 11, 2021, 11:42:56 am
If we decide to go from an elimination strategy to managing Covid in the community, wearing masks, social distancing and restricting gatherings become more important, not less. Obviously, vaccinating to a level to ensure herd immunity would be preferable.
Yes, it's interesting, masks and distancing have been a social norm in some of our northern neighbours for quite a while now, but I'm a bit concerned it hasn't really helped a place like Singapore where the public is ultra compliant. Which to me is a sign that even Singapore has to a degree underestimated the risk in a hope that economic damage is minimised.

I've heard a few specialists argue that as much as masks might physically reduce transmission, it's the change in behaviour that they bring which is even more important.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 11, 2021, 12:48:05 pm
As an epidemiologist said a long time ago, a stitch in time saves 9.

That argument is one that can be followed until the appropriate data is gathered and measurable.  We have much better information about COVID, the prophylactic cost, the ongoing mental health cost, and the ongoing risk profile to warrant a review of our approach to dealing with this risk.  Thats what I want done.

Because of the civil disobedience!

Personally, I think your argument is built on a disregard for the effects of lockdown, you seem to be asserting that the low cases numbers are a sign that lockdown is not needed and not an effect of lockdown. To me this is a confusion of cause and effect, the order of events matter.

No, my argument is built on the premise and factual data that shows we are ruining many lives trying to save few lives.


Thats the same argument being mounted for vaccinating against Covid too by the way.  You know the one you are advocating based on the data that we might potentially ruin few lives trying to save the many (so to speak) which means we should vaccinate. 

Dont worry about wars.  This isnt about war.

I dont need to be right, I want to challenge my own thinking here, which is why I am asking such questions on a footy forum, devoid of the emotive arguments you get from people who take this all very personally and dont add enough balance to their arguments.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 11, 2021, 12:59:03 pm
That argument is one that can be followed until the appropriate data is gathered and measurable.  We have much better information about COVID, the prophylactic cost, the ongoing mental health cost, and the ongoing risk profile to warrant a review of our approach to dealing with this risk.  Thats what I want done.

No, my argument is built on the premise and factual data that shows we are ruining many lives trying to save few lives.

Thats the same argument being mounted for vaccinating against Covid too by the way.  You know the one you are advocating based on the data that we might potentially ruin few lives trying to save the many (so to speak) which means we should vaccinate. 

Dont worry about wars.  This isnt about war.

I dont need to be right, I want to challenge my own thinking here, which is why I am asking such questions on a footy forum, devoid of the emotive arguments you get from people who take this all very personally and dont add enough balance to their arguments.
Firstly, vaccines save lives they do not cost them, as mentioned earlier if the data is followed on deaths after vaccination is shows that the broad trend is that deaths from clots are reduced. The problem is social media and media bend the category, they ignore the general trend and want to discuss a very specific subset cherrypicked for the purpose which they want portrayed as the norm.

I'm not sure what ruining a life means in the pandemic lockdown perspective, much of the pain and suffering is a consequence of civil disobedience  against the lockdown rather than the mechanics of the pandemic lockdown itself. While I concede the lockdown civil disobedience doesn't exist without the lockdown, I can't say that low case numbers would persist in the absence of lockdown.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 11, 2021, 01:26:39 pm
I would personally prefer governments and people to be more cautious than less in situations like this. There will be negative outcomes and criticisms no matter what policies the government has in place.

If we followed a more sensible model rather than the rubbish American capitalist system, we would have planned and budgeted for such an event long ago (scientists has stated for decades that such an event was beyond any shadow of a doubt, a matter of when, not if). That way, we could have had proper restrictions and financial / mental health etc. support for the citizens, and the impacts on society would be less. We've had the double whammy of a financial meltdown and a pandemic, and the great majority of people will be struggling for a long time IMO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on June 11, 2021, 01:32:14 pm
Why did they stop Astraz for u50's?

It killed a few young healthy people. If they only give it to over 50s then if you die they can use your age against you.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 11, 2021, 02:07:20 pm
It killed a few young healthy people. If they only give it to over 50s then if you die they can use your age against you.
The four latest patients with Blood Clots from AstraZ are all over 50...i guess underlying causes will be the excuse given.
Just heard a younger man over in Greece had the AstraZ and was next found dead next day...perfectly healthy up until then.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 11, 2021, 03:08:48 pm
Firstly, vaccines save lives they do not cost them, as mentioned earlier if the data is followed on deaths after vaccination is shows that the broad trend is that deaths from clots are reduced. The problem is social media and media bend the category, they ignore the general trend and want to discuss a very specific subset cherrypicked for the purpose which they want portrayed as the norm.

The data shows that the vaccine has indeed been linked with death you seem to ignore this and want to explain it away.  Why?

Quote
I'm not sure what ruining a life means in the pandemic lockdown perspective, much of the pain and suffering is a consequence of civil disobedience  against the lockdown rather than the mechanics of the pandemic lockdown itself. While I concede the lockdown civil disobedience doesn't exist without the lockdown, I can't say that low case numbers would persist in the absence of lockdown.

Surely even you are a bit more worldly to see the effects of lock down on people?

People are actually suffering LP.  Some of them are being denied medical treatment because COVID (cancellation of all non life threatening elective surgery isn't exactly leaving people in a situation where they are happy and healthy.

Some people are struggling to put food on the table.  Some people have lost their careers let alone their jobs.

Businesses (particularly small ones) have gone under.

That leaves people feeling a lot of angst.

The few people I know who had covid, and had extended symptoms are now 100% fine.

No ongoing issues, nothing.

People are going through grief, alone.
People are having weddings with no guests.
People are having kids, and their fathers are not being allowed to spend more than an hour a day with them for the first days of their life.
People are being admitted to hospital near death and being denied access by their family.  That grief of not being able to say goodbye (covid or not) is no easier.
People are dying of terminal illnesses during this period, having spent their last few months doing nothing.  They are already dead, they are just waiting for the finality of death because life in lockdown isnt exactly living, unless you have a steady income stream, a cushy job where you can work remotely, or an essential service.

Then you have the inability to see people.  Widows and widowers have a bubble mate, but they aren't exactly living their best life.

Its very myopic to think that this is all easy enough  with no consequences.

Not everyone has a nice home to lock down in.  They might live in a share house, or live in a really unfriendly suburb.

Foodbanks have never had less food and people to work for them feeding the poor and the homeless.

I am bamboozled by your response and the lack of empathy it shows. 


Its quite absurd. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 11, 2021, 03:24:29 pm
So, to sum up: vaccines are dangerous and aren’t the answer but we shouldn’t have lockdowns or restrictions either. Just let it rip because people will be 100% after a while.

Operating businesses is a risk/reward scenario. If you’re unlucky enough to be starting out when a depression hits, you may lose your business. If you’ve started up a burger joint and a Maccas opens up across the road, good luck. In either case, you’re not going to get much of a chop out from government.

I wonder what country people think when owners of regional tourist venues demand that the government let Melburnians travel freely to their towns so their businesses will prosper. I wonder if any residents would prefer to see the infected stay where they are.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 11, 2021, 03:40:15 pm
I wonder what country people think when owners of regional tourist venues demand that the government let Melburnians travel freely to their towns so their businesses will prosper. I wonder if any residents would prefer to see the infected stay where they are.
@Mav‍ I was thinking on this very issue last night when watching the reaction to the Qld absconders.

Just a week ago we had regional tourism operators demanding Melbournians be set free, when that couple escaped and turned positive without blinking many of the same were asking for them to be jailed!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 11, 2021, 03:41:44 pm
I am bamboozled by your response and the lack of empathy it shows.
And they'll live to tell the tale to their descendants, like so many of their ancestors who survived a war!

I have to wonder if those lonely and isolated might also be some of the most likely to suffer at the hands of Sars-CoV-2, disease tends to work that way.

Much of the commentary surrounding the pain of lockdown is a commentary about human nature, and not directly the effects of lockdown. I will continue to assert, if the dissenters went away, the lockdown would be swifter and more effective, and we might not be in the 3rd or 4th iteration. We do not have far to go to test this, interstate or Auckland will suffice.

I'll give you a nice example.
A small little local discrete private gym, frequented and subscribed to by a fairly affluent set. Many of these people are doctors, medical specialists, politicians, accountants, lawyers, well to dos, many merely inconvenienced by the lockdown. They go here because it's discrete, only a couple of hundred members and they won't run into people they do not want to talk to. For some their income is not diminished, for some they are even turning more profit not operating a mainstream office. But they can't go to gym so they cancel the $6 to $10/week memberships heaping duress on the little gym operator. If the gym survives, when things return to normal, patrons will have to sit in their and listen to them bragging about their favourite under $500 Burgundy, or their next holiday to a private French run Fiji resort, or how servicing costs of the Astin Martin have gone through the roof, if the gym survives. They have the power to maintain the quality of life and financial status of that gym operator, but instead they opt to save their pittance per week and suspend or cancel their memberships, what's in it for them after all they aren't getting their $6 worth! Of course if the gym operator doesn't survive the pandemic, they'll be sprouting soliloquys of such shame and pity, how harsh life can be!                 Such is human nature!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 11, 2021, 04:12:45 pm
The one that amazed me was when a farmers’ representative was advocating a few months back that the Victorian Government should allow hundreds (or was it thousands?) of people in from overseas to pick fruit and the like. When the journo noted the government’s position was that only a small number of people could be processed through hotel quarantine and that included returned travellers, he helpfully suggested we could get them to quarantine in other countries so they could be waved through on arrival. I can just imagine if Scotty from Marketing’s National Party mates had rammed that one down our throats, the Fed Govt would be blaming the States for mishandling the influx.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 11, 2021, 04:56:02 pm
So, to sum up: vaccines are dangerous and aren’t the answer but we shouldn’t have lockdowns or restrictions either. Just let it rip because people will be 100% after a while.

Operating businesses is a risk/reward scenario. If you’re unlucky enough to be starting out when a depression hits, you may lose your business. If you’ve started up a burger joint and a Maccas opens up across the road, good luck. In either case, you’re not going to get much of a chop out from government.

I wonder what country people think when owners of regional tourist venues demand that the government let Melburnians travel freely to their towns so their businesses will prosper. I wonder if any residents would prefer to see the infected stay where they are.

False, you are paraphrasing not summarising.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 11, 2021, 04:56:59 pm
And they'll live to tell the tale to their descendants, like so many of their ancestors who survived a war!

I have to wonder if those lonely and isolated might also be some of the most likely to suffer at the hands of Sars-CoV-2, disease tends to work that way.

Much of the commentary surrounding the pain of lockdown is a commentary about human nature, and not directly the effects of lockdown. I will continue to assert, if the dissenters went away, the lockdown would be swifter and more effective, and we might not be in the 3rd or 4th iteration. We do not have far to go to test this, interstate or Auckland will suffice.

I'll give you a nice example.
A small little local discrete private gym, frequented and subscribed to by a fairly affluent set. Many of these people are doctors, medical specialists, politicians, accountants, lawyers, well to dos, many merely inconvenienced by the lockdown. They go here because it's discrete, only a couple of hundred members and they won't run into people they do not want to talk to. For some their income is not diminished, for some they are even turning more profit not operating a mainstream office. But they can't go to gym so they cancel the $6 to $10/week memberships heaping duress on the little gym operator. If the gym survives, when things return to normal, patrons will have to sit in their and listen to them bragging about their favourite under $500 Burgundy, or their next holiday to a private French run Fiji resort, or how servicing costs of the Astin Martin have gone through the roof, if the gym survives. They have the power to maintain the quality of life and financial status of that gym operator, but instead they opt to save their pittance per week and suspend or cancel their memberships, what's in it for them after all they aren't getting their $6 worth! Of course if the gym operator doesn't survive the pandemic, they'll be sprouting soliloquys of such shame and pity, how harsh life can be!                 Such is human nature!

The ones that commit suicide wont live to tell the tale, and some of them wont really have a life post lockdown.  A lot of people have gone to the wall because of covid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 11, 2021, 05:00:21 pm
The ones that commit suicide wont live to tell the tale, and some of them wont really have a life post lockdown.  A lot of people have gone to the wall because of covid.
 Yes, this is true.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 11, 2021, 05:39:57 pm
The ones that commit suicide wont live to tell the tale, and some of them wont really have a life post lockdown.  A lot of people have gone to the wall because of covid.
Agree, Hardly an ambulance call for actual CoVid cases...however attempted suicide calls and drug OD calls are way up every lockdown. Deaths in those cases wont make the news and wont be included as CoVid casualties.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 11, 2021, 07:30:29 pm
False, you are paraphrasing not summarising.
Either way would be valid. Paraphrasing is restating the meaning of a text or passage using other words (I’m paraphrasing an online dictionary here). So as both are legitimate techniques, feel free to address my post rather than blowing it off.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 11, 2021, 07:33:44 pm
A lot of people have gone to the wall because of covid.
Correct. Covid is the culprit. And it has killed a lot of people as well. Let’s make sure we beat it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 11, 2021, 09:05:49 pm
Let's see what evolves with China. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 11, 2021, 10:32:52 pm
Either way would be valid. Paraphrasing is restating the meaning of a text or passage using other words (I’m paraphrasing an online dictionary here). So as both are legitimate techniques, feel free to address my post rather than blowing it off.

You know what mav, I'm a public servant health care worker labor voter.  For some reason you keep calling me right wing.

You are deliberately painting the point I am not making.

1.  Im not an anti vaxer.
2.  Covid this far has caused less damage to Australia than the protective measures.


I have ust discovered inside word this lockdown has been a social engineering experiment to encourage vaccine take up and the biggest damage the panic lockdowns cause is faith in the pandemic message.

Ala the boy who cried wolf.

When the wolf comes this pandemic will be the reference point. 

As for rebutting your post, there's no point.  You will dismiss it like Trump would.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 11, 2021, 10:34:22 pm
Correct. Covid is the culprit. And it has killed a lot of people as well. Let’s make sure we beat it.

We aren't beating covid.  Its going to dissappear into nothing as the next version of a flu.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 12, 2021, 12:53:31 am
Agree, Hardly an ambulance call for actual CoVid cases...however attempted suicide calls and drug OD calls are way up every lockdown. Deaths in those cases wont make the news and wont be included as CoVid casualties.
Can you point me to the source for this?

I just listened to some official who claimed this stuff and general crime was down 35%, based on reports from emergency services. Apparently there has just been a big national study completed as part of a global study.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on June 12, 2021, 06:29:45 am
We aren't beating covid.  Its going to dissappear into nothing as the next version of a flu.

It will leave a massive legacy in many ways though in its impact on society, whether intended or not.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 12, 2021, 09:16:31 am
Can you point me to the source for this?

I just listened to some official who claimed this stuff and general crime was down 35%, based on reports from emergency services. Apparently there has just been a big national study completed as part of a global study.
Two Ambulance Officers who work at Frankton and Dandenong and an ER nurse who works in the Eastern suburbs at a Public Hospital and another who works at an inner Melbourne hospital. You want the real facts about all the cock ups then you go to the people on the frontline not the massaged stats you read on govt websites etc..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 12, 2021, 11:43:58 am
@Thryleon, I imagine if the boy cried wolf early on and 800 of the town’s flock had been slaughtered by the wolf, the townsfolk would have been a little more willing to heed his calls later on.

Unfortunately, human nature suggests otherwise. Case in point: hurricanes in the US. The hurricane warning system is pretty accurate. But of course hurricanes don’t follow a rigid path. They can and do change direction and lose strength. Many towns have dodged a bullet when this happens and the locals are cynical the next time a warning is issued. And then disaster strikes. The same could be said here about bushfire warnings.

As with hurricane warnings, epidemiologists can only call them as they see them and if we’re lucky and those predictions don’t pan out this time, we should just count our lucky stars.

If we want to draw a better analogy from the literary world, maybe epidemiologists are like Cassandra in Greek mythology. She was blessed by the Gods with the ability to foresee coming disasters but cursed by ensuring her warnings fell on deaf ears.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 12, 2021, 01:47:51 pm
Two Ambulance Officers who work at Frankton and Dandenong and an ER nurse who works in the Eastern suburbs at a Public Hospital and another who works at an inner Melbourne hospital. You want the real facts about all the cock ups then you go to the people on the frontline not the massaged stats you read on govt websites etc..
So that is no hard data, just a couple of opinions.

The 'official' I listened to was an academic summarising an independent international study that UNSW was participating in, not sure they have any reason to colour the results in the favour of Vic Health or Vic Pol, and the academics are probably socialist anyway! Are you asserting Scotty from Marketing is bending the arm of UNSW academics to bodgey up the records to make Dan Andrews look nice? :o

To me it sounded like the anonymised data came mostly from official unified Federal records. The study has not been released yet, it must still be in peer review, hopefully it appears on somewhere like The Conversation soon.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on June 12, 2021, 02:46:19 pm
LP you keep asking for data but if anyone puts up data that doesn't support your opinion you dismiss it. You do this with any topic on this forum.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 12, 2021, 04:14:30 pm
LP you keep asking for data but if anyone puts up data that doesn't support your opinion you dismiss it. You do this with any topic on this forum.
@madbluboy
Elwood made an assertion deaths from suicide and other hospitalisations like drug overdose were up, it's far to ask for the source, I was hoping he'd provide it because I'd just been listening to a preliminary report that suggested the very opposite. But he didn't provide numbers just relayed opinions so I never got to dismiss any data he provided, because there wasn't any!

Opinions are not data, opinions are next to worthless because they are coloured by human experience and perceptions.

When that report gets formally published I'll link it here somewhere, it'll contain numbers on cases, admissions, arrests, etc., etc., that is data not someone's opinion!

I'm not dismissing the experience of people either, it's just that what happens in a location or on a specific shift might not be representative of the general trend, someone's experience can be generally unreliable to the global trends even if their observations are correct.

fwiw, I was hoping Elwood would publish or link something with hard numbers that contradicts what I'd heard, because I suspect such reports could well be political as he suggests. But to refute it you need hard data, not opinions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 12, 2021, 05:39:12 pm
Only those with serious physical or mental health issues admitted for further treatment are included in any Govt data. In addition, clinical data from emergency departments (EDs) or primary health care services doesnt currently capture those presenting with intentional self-harm conditions. In cases of fatal drug overdose etc it will have respiratory failure as cause of death, unless its a crime or undetermined cause. A patient who is revived at the scene of an ambulance callout will not be admitted if they are considered to have recovered. They would have to admit themselves voluntarily.....so CoVid doesnt really have a heading when it comes to accurate stats.
Do you honestly think the Government would want data released that pointed to a massive increase in attempted suicides, drug overdoses etc under their lockdown conditions?
I'm just telling you what the people at the front line are dealing with and its not masses of Covid cases like in India etc, Covid wards in Victoria are empty but mental health issues are up.....and they dont all make the stat sheet.
You are entitled to believe the Government data but I'll go with the people at the coalface who I can trust...if the official you listened to is suggesting CoVid has reduced mental health stats and crime like you suggested I find that laughable....


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 12, 2021, 07:23:57 pm
https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/face-masks-should-continue-forever-says-british-scientist-20210611-p5807s.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 12, 2021, 07:48:02 pm
https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/face-masks-should-continue-forever-says-british-scientist-20210611-p5807s.html

Like that'll last ... typical idiot
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 12, 2021, 09:57:10 pm
Only those with serious physical or mental health issues admitted for further treatment are included in any Govt data. In addition, clinical data from emergency departments (EDs) or primary health care services doesnt currently capture those presenting with intentional self-harm conditions. In cases of fatal drug overdose etc it will have respiratory failure as cause of death, unless its a crime or undetermined cause. A patient who is revived at the scene of an ambulance callout will not be admitted if they are considered to have recovered. They would have to admit themselves voluntarily.....so CoVid doesnt really have a heading when it comes to accurate stats.
Do you honestly think the Government would want data released that pointed to a massive increase in attempted suicides, drug overdoses etc under their lockdown conditions?
I'm just telling you what the people at the front line are dealing with and its not masses of Covid cases like in India etc, Covid wards in Victoria are empty but mental health issues are up.....and they dont all make the stat sheet.
You are entitled to believe the Government data but I'll go with the people at the coalface who I can trust...if the official you listened to is suggesting CoVid has reduced mental health stats and crime like you suggested I find that laughable....
Ignoring what is reported about the how and why, if there are more deaths it shows in the totals, you don't need any other piece of data except the count relative to the monthly historical averages!

Critics can't assert there are more ODs, suicide attempts and mental health issues while at the same time complain that the system is broken with slower response and longer wait time due to COVID, yet get a better outcome! That is the absurdity of what is being asserted, there is more of everything bad, but a better outcome because the number of deaths hasn't increased or has even dropped despite all these increased attempts and ODs!

Lots of people have made this assertion of increased deaths by suicide and ODs every lockdown, many on social media, many in traditional media, it has become part of the anti-lockdown mantra, but not one has shown that the numbers actually increase. If I recall correctly in the 2nd lockdown when these accusations were made the Bureau of Statistics reported we actually had less deaths versus typical historical averages, as well as lower crime stats and lower pollution levels.

I'm, pretty confident the total official death count is accurate, so where to............................?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on June 13, 2021, 10:58:57 am
As l read here I keep wondering when Pete Evans is going to pop up…
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 13, 2021, 11:38:46 am
Interesting article in the Age today in which medical people note that the Covid response has crushed seasonal flu in Australia.

Quote
There hasn’t been a single flu death reported in 2021, and there were less than 40 in 2020. This compares to more than 800 in 2019, a particularly bad season.
There were just nine cases of the flu confirmed in the first week of this month, according to the Immunisation Coalition. So far this year, there have been just 60 notifications of influenza in Victoria and 32 in NSW. Queensland has seen the most cases – at 171.

I guess we have to say Covid measures have saved around 1500 lives that would have been lost to influenza. And a few people vying for the Darwin Award have been saved from themselves as well: fewer people falling off cliffs while taking selfies or having their heads splattered by trees while sticking them out of trains to feed pictures to their instagram accounts.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 13, 2021, 01:11:57 pm
Perhaps we should all "celebrate" after a "conversation" ... I'm sure Bandt and Fauci will be along to suggest we must "follow the science".   ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 13, 2021, 01:17:27 pm
Interesting article in the Age today in which medical people note that the Covid response has crushed seasonal flu in Australia.

I guess we have to say Covid measures have saved around 1500 lives that would have been lost to influenza. And a few people vying for the Darwin Award have been saved from themselves as well: fewer people falling off cliffs while taking selfies or having their heads splattered by trees while sticking them out of trains to feed pictures to their instagram accounts.

Why don't we continue lockdowns in the future during peak flu season. We could save MORE lives then.

Given that the flu is kills more australians than covid.

While we are at it, lets reduce all speed limits to 30km/h. Lower speeds = lower deaths. Hell, lets make it 20, we'll save more!

There is a limit to how practical it is to saving lives.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 13, 2021, 01:25:20 pm
Sorry. I should have realised that only negative side-effects of the Covid response are to be considered. Let’s speculate about suicides instead.

You note I referred to side-effects. That’s because the goal was to reduce deaths and serious harm from Covid. And we’ve hit it out of the park so far. No doubt we’re all very happy about that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 13, 2021, 02:10:59 pm
Sorry. I should have realised that only negative side-effects of the Covid response are to be considered. Let’s speculate about suicides instead.

You note I referred to side-effects. That’s because the goal was to reduce deaths and serious harm from Covid. And we’ve hit it out of the park so far. No doubt we’re all very happy about that.
If the goal is to reduce deaths and ignore whatever other effects might be occuring, then there is a job at the AFL in the rules committee for them. Unintended consequences mean anything?

As i said, if reducing deaths at the expense of everything else is all that matters, reduce the speed limit.....or ban cars altogether. ZERO deaths from vehicles!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 13, 2021, 03:16:28 pm
And that’s where the dramatic reduction in flu deaths comes in. It’s an unintended consequence which must be weighed against any negative unintended consequence. 1500 lives saved is a pretty handy offset in that regard, don’t you think?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 13, 2021, 04:42:52 pm
Sometimes these things are annoying at the start, and then just become habits that you no longer really think about. Speed reductions around school zones were introduced in 2001. There was of course the usual outrage about impracticality, inconvenience etc., but now it makes perfect sense. And speed limits for cars in urban areas have tended to come down, not up.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 13, 2021, 07:34:03 pm
I reckon if we kill everyone on the planet by lethal injection, we'll be more environmentally friendly, prevent all car accidents,  plane crashes, save millions of animals from slaughterhouses, eliminate cancer deaths,  flu deaths etc.

Best part is, Carlton will go down in history as having won the most grand finals.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 13, 2021, 07:35:20 pm
Sometimes these things are annoying at the start, and then just become habits that you no longer really think about. Speed reductions around school zones were introduced in 2001. There was of course the usual outrage about impracticality, inconvenience etc., but now it makes perfect sense. And speed limits for cars in urban areas have tended to come down, not up.

40 zones still annoy the crap out of me and I'd love to see the stats on their impact on road safety.  Id wager minimal impact statistically.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 13, 2021, 07:40:06 pm
Can’t help you on 40 kmh zones but there’s heaps of evidence that the Covid restrictions used around Australia have saved heaps of lives.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 13, 2021, 08:04:15 pm
40 zones still annoy the crap out of me and I'd love to see the stats on their impact on road safety.  Id wager minimal impact statistically.

I'm sure you can find information around if you look. Quite apart from that, the logic that lower speeds make cities safer would be pretty watertight I would think.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 13, 2021, 08:21:11 pm
I'm sure you can find information around if you look. Quite apart from that, the logic that lower speeds make cities safer would be pretty watertight I would think.

Posted by who?   We had a senior cop saying a few years back on 3AW the VIC road toll should be zero !!!  What a f'wit idiot.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 13, 2021, 08:22:12 pm
I'm sure you can find information around if you look. Quite apart from that, the logic that lower speeds make cities safer would be pretty watertight I would think.

I reckon if we take cars off the road the roads will be safer
#covidrestrictionlogic
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 13, 2021, 08:24:31 pm
I reckon if we take cars off the road the roads will be safer
#covidrestrictionlogic
I gotta say I am sick and tired of the restrictions now. Surely 1 or 2 cases means get back to normal. Just call it now and lets all get on with it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 13, 2021, 08:47:59 pm
My personal favourite is the family I know of who were told they had to stay home without electricity on Thursday instead of taking their 5 kids to the grandparents house because it was outside the 10km zone.

Meanwhile scomo is over in the UK.

God forbid he dial in to a summit.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on June 13, 2021, 09:13:00 pm
40 zones still annoy the crap out of me and I'd love to see the stats on their impact on road safety.  Id wager minimal impact statistically.

Good grief, go stand in front of a car doing 40, then try one doing 60 and get back to us…
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 13, 2021, 09:47:40 pm
Good grief, go stand in front of a car doing 40, then try one doing 60 and get back to us…

Had to read it a few times to make sure you weren't telling me to go kill myself.

40 zones aren't just at schools you know right?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on June 13, 2021, 09:52:44 pm
Had to read it a few times to make sure you weren't telling me to go kill myself.

40 zones aren't just at schools you know right?

I’ll  use  two  finger  spacing  for  you.
A  car @  40kmh  gives  you  and  the  car  more  time  to  avoid  a  collision  and  greatly  reduces  the  said  impact.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 13, 2021, 11:46:44 pm
The energy of impact, kinetic energy, varies with the square of the speed.

Double the speed you hit 4 x harder, speed up from 40 to 60 = 60/40  = 1.5, , so 1.5 * 1.5 = 2.25, or 225% more force.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 13, 2021, 11:57:23 pm
The energy of impact, kinetic energy, varies with the square of the speed.

Double the speed you hit 4 x harder, speed up from 40 to 60 = 60/40  = 1.5, , so 1.5 * 1.5 = 2.25, or 225% more force.

Impressive.

Let's make top speed limits 20 then.

Another 250% slower.

You've convinced me its a great idea.

Actually let's make it 10ks instead just for good measure.  Will take 4 hours to communicate 40 k's but its all worth it to reduce the road toll to 0.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 14, 2021, 03:05:38 am
I reckon if we take cars off the road the roads will be safer
#covidrestrictionlogic
I am gobsmacked that people are not understanding the logic I pointed out. Clearly you do. I think we are in the minority.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 14, 2021, 07:54:11 am
Impressive.

Let's make top speed limits 20 then.

Another 250% slower.

You've convinced me its a great idea.

Actually let's make it 10ks instead just for good measure.  Will take 4 hours to communicate 40 k's but its all worth it to reduce the road toll to 0.
I read a pretty funny analogy about Sutton earlier. It said if he worked in the botanic gardens, he would run weed killer through the sprinkers to kill all the weeds. No regards for all the plants and lawns, but the weeds will be dead.
This stuff makes no sense now. You can go to a brothel but not a gym, FFS fellas.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: deepbluesee on June 14, 2021, 08:06:56 am
Quote from: Gointocarlton iller through the sprinkers to kill all the weeds. No regards This stuff makes no sense now. You can go to a brothel but not a gym, FFS fellas. [/quote
/>
I read a pretty funny analogy about Sutton earlier. It said if he worked in the botanic gardens, he would run weed killer through the sprinkers to kill all the weeds. No regards for all the plants and lawns, but the weeds will be dead.
This stuff makes no sense now. You can go to a brothel but not a gym, FFS fellas.
FYI both gyms and brothels are currently closed in metro Melb.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 14, 2021, 08:30:27 am
FYI both gyms and brothels are currently closed in metro Melb.
My bad, I thought I read somewhere brothels were open.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 14, 2021, 08:35:12 am
My bad, I thought I read somewhere brothels were open.
There was a meme going around that went something like this...

Quote
You can go to a bottle-shop to buy booze
You can then go to a safe injecting room and shoot up.
You can then go to a brothel and....

But you can't go visit your family and friends, or visit a gym.
Only in Melbourne.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 14, 2021, 09:17:15 am
Thai massage parlours are open though.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 14, 2021, 09:20:40 am
I am gobsmacked that people are not understanding the logic I pointed out. Clearly you do. I think we are in the minority.
Reduction to absurdity isn't logic, it's philosophy, Greece and Rome sorted that one out when Plato was a pup. However the term is used as part of mathematical proofs in a very specific context.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 14, 2021, 10:24:04 am
Reduction to absurdity isn't logic, it's philosophy, Greece and Rome sorted that one out when Plato was a pup. However the term is used as part of mathematical proofs in a very specific context.

Proving the absurd is possible, then winding it back to our current levels paints a dramatic picture in which you guys continue to ignore.

Absurdity is just an arbitrary line someone drew.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 14, 2021, 10:31:25 am
I couldn't give a fork about football crowds, being able to travel interstate, I just want to be able to allow family into my home so we can make Salamis this weekend FFS. And by hook or by crook, we'll be doing it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 14, 2021, 10:45:28 am
Absurdity is just an arbitrary line someone drew.
It's a very specific point of debate in philosophy and math.

If you want to argue the absurd you have to look at all aspects and not cherry-pick specific features, the global effects.

For example, if you want to argue 10kph reduces deaths, then you have to look at the effect of 10kph on all deaths, not just road deaths. Like if the emergency services could only travel at 10kph, or if food delivery only operated at 10kph, or if disaster relief vehicles only travelled at 10kph, or the effects of increased emissions per kilometre, etc., etc., etc..

Much like the COVID-19 restrictions, the speed limits are applied in very specific circumstances, and not globally as the absurd argument suggests.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 14, 2021, 10:48:33 am
It's a very specific point of debate in philosophy and math.

If you want to argue the absurd you have to look at all aspects and not cherry-pick specific features, the global effects.

For example, if you want to argue 10kph reduces deaths, then you have to look at the effect of 10kph on all deaths, not just road deaths. Like if the emergency services could only travel at 10kph, or if food delivery only operated at 10kph, or if disaster relief vehicles only travelled at 10kph, or the effects of increased emissions per kilometre, etc., etc., etc..

Much like the COVID-19 restrictions, the speed limits are applied in very specific circumstances, and not globally as the absurd argument suggests.

You realise you are making the exact point i was making.  :D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 14, 2021, 10:53:52 am
You realise you are making the exact point i was making.  :D
Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression, I'm not really discussing anyone's specific points, in fact I haven't read much of any of that discussion. I saw a few absurd claims so I thought I'd discuss reduction to absurdity, it's quite useful around here.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 14, 2021, 11:04:45 am
I’m not going to play Jenga with you guys. Seems you’re able to take out all of the bottom blocks but still your top blocks remain in place.

Let’s have a lockdown where for businesses it’s business as usual and where there are no restrictions placed on mixing socially. That should work ...

As epidemiologists have often said, you might be done with Covid but Covid isn’t done with you. People may become complacent and frustrated but Covid doesn’t let up.

As for consistency, that’s overrated. If you want complete consistency, get a computer. Humans are notoriously hard to organise and finding loopholes is the national pastime. Reminds me of Fatprick Smith who argued that the AFL had to outlaw taking pack marks with the knee raised if it were to be consistent with its attempts to protect the head in tackles and bumps. Gimme a break!

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 14, 2021, 11:07:19 am
I’m not going to play Jenga with you guys. Seems you’re able to take out all of the bottom blocks but still your top blocks remain in place.

Let’s have a lockdown where for businesses it’s business as usual and where there are no restrictions placed on mixing socially. That should work ...

As epidemiologists have often said, you might be done with Covid but Covid isn’t done with you. People may become complacent and frustrated but Covid doesn’t let up.

As for consistency, that’s overrated. If you want complete consistency, get a computer. Humans are notoriously hard to organise and finding loopholes is the national pastime. Reminds me of Fatprick Smith who argued that the AFL had to outlaw taking pack marks with the knee raised if it were to be consistent with its attempts to protect the head in tackles and bumps. Gimme a break!

I agree.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 14, 2021, 11:08:04 am
I’m not going to play Jenga with you guys. Seems you’re able to take out all of the bottom blocks but still your top blocks remain in place.

Let’s have a lockdown where for businesses it’s business as usual and where there are no restrictions placed on mixing socially. That should work ...

As epidemiologists have often said, you might be done with Covid but Covid isn’t done with you. People may become complacent and frustrated but Covid doesn’t let up.

As for consistency, that’s overrated. If you want complete consistency, get a computer. Humans are notoriously hard to organise and finding loopholes is the national pastime. Reminds me of Fatprick Smith who argued that the AFL had to outlaw taking pack marks with the knee raised if it were to be consistent with its attempts to protect the head in tackles and bumps. Gimme a break!


Sooooo, can I make Salami?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 14, 2021, 11:21:22 am
Yes, but only vegetarian Salami. Your arteries will thank me.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 14, 2021, 12:10:26 pm
Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression, I'm not really discussing anyone's specific points, in fact I haven't read much of any of that discussion. I saw a few absurd claims so I thought I'd discuss reduction to absurdity, it's quite useful around here.

You love jumping into arguments you don't understand.

You could save everyone some time if you just read a little more before you jumped in.  ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 14, 2021, 01:08:58 pm
You love jumping into arguments you don't understand.

You could save everyone some time if you just read a little more before you jumped in.  ;)
I didn't jump into the debate, you referred to what is fundamentally a reduction to absurdity as logic, and I pointed out in my reply post it's philosophy (https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=4922.msg338213#msg338213), whatever subject you were debating was irrelevant at that point.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 14, 2021, 01:18:04 pm
I didn't jump into the debate, you referred to what is fundamentally a reduction to absurdity as logic, and I pointed out in my reply post it's philosophy (https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=4922.msg338213#msg338213), whatever subject you were debating was irrelevant at that point.
Whatever floats your boat.

You jumped into the debate, touted some philosophical nonsense and then agreed with what i was saying citing you didn't even know what was being debated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 14, 2021, 02:01:36 pm
You jumped into the debate, touted some philosophical nonsense and then agreed with what i was saying citing you didn't even know what was being debated.
That's partially correct, but it's not nonsense, I used a comment in your post to introduce and clarify a related subject, I didn't need to know what you and the others were debating.

The misuse of the term logic is no different to the common misuse of the term theory.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 14, 2021, 02:03:20 pm
Here’s a way to open up the way for businesses, letting the free market regulate things rather than government. All businesses that open for business must have Public Liability (Covid Cover); failure to have it or trading in such a way that the cover is invalidated constitutes a criminal offence and persons involved in managing companies committing those offences are personally liable for any damages awarded by a court.

That would allow business people to roll the dice but they’d have to foot the bill if they crap out. Leave it to the Insurance companies to dictate standards various types of businesses should respect. And with genomic testing and contact tracing, it shouldn’t be too hard for personal injury law firms to hold reckless operators responsible via class actions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 14, 2021, 02:09:58 pm
That would allow business people to roll the dice but they’d have to foot the bill if they crap out.
I suppose you could argue most of the dissenters wouldn't bother, if they became liable they wouldn't have any funds or assets to cover the damages of any claim, they'd use legal aid to fight the case ( the public pays ), if they were fined they wouldn't pay so the sheriff / courts would pursue them ( so the public pays again ), if they go to jail the public pays for that as well.

So it would probably become a tax on the compliant leaving them at the mercy of the non-compliant.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 14, 2021, 02:10:16 pm
Minor changes to established mores, laws etc. are not to be compared to absolutes. No Australian politician to my knowledge has ever advocated wholesale removal of cars from the streets and they never will, although there are benefits to doing so, and they would be obvious. What you do see is a nip and tuck approach, such as small sections of the CBD where cars are not permitted (many cities have had this for ages), reduced speed around school zones etc.

Histrionics don't help anyone. You can quibble about whether the speed limit should be 40, 38, 21 kmh, but you can't quibble about the fact that they make cities safer.

I'm sure citizens of many cities around the world are enjoying the cleaner air that comes from being forced to work form home, another unintended benefit of covid control measures.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 14, 2021, 02:29:24 pm
I think much of this tangential debate is about the psychology of humans, those who think that things must be returned to 'normal', versus those who think things can and must change forever.

Pretty much all of the big issues, equality, racism, climate change, etc., etc.. all fall in the same broad category, most of the dissent is really fighting change.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 14, 2021, 02:38:11 pm
Minor changes to established mores, laws etc. are not to be compared to absolutes. No Australian politician to my knowledge has ever advocated wholesale removal of cars from the streets and they never will, although there are benefits to doing so, and they would be obvious. What you do see is a nip and tuck approach, such as small sections of the CBD where cars are not permitted (many cities have had this for ages), reduced speed around school zones etc.

Histrionics don't help anyone. You can quibble about whether the speed limit should be 40, 38, 21 kmh, but you can't quibble about the fact that they make cities safer.

I'm sure citizens of many cities around the world are enjoying the cleaner air that comes from being forced to work form home, another unintended benefit of covid control measures.


lol....way to miss the point.

Let me explain because i must be making my point too subtley.

Lockdown = good because less people die from covid ......is 1 point of view.
Lockdown = bad because more people die from suicide, are financially ruined etc etc from the results of lockdowns.

IMO, looking at lockdown = good because less people die from covid is very much oversimplifying things.
Look at the ripple effect that has on the people, the businesses, the city and the country that has occurred from these lockdowns. Even compare that with other states and their lockdowns.
It is not SIMPLY about how many people are NOT dying from COVID because of lockdowns.

Now, the analogy was this. If it is SIMPLY about deaths directly from Covid and nothing else matters, then, again, that is an oversimplified view.
Looking at that view in another scenario...
Speed limits are dropped to save lives. It works, no arguments. If we drop it by more....it will save more lives. If we ban cars altogether, it will reduce lives lost from car accidents to zero. So, if its just about death toll, ban cars. However, there is a reason we don't.....its just not practical.
Someone, somewhere said that 40 zones are a comfortable compromise between saving lives and being practical. If you asked someone else, they probably would've come up with a different 'magic number' other than 40, lets say 50. A third person more cautious person may have yet another number, say 30. Its all based on a persons point of view on what they are trying to achieve and how practical (or not) that arbitrary number is.
Some people, say the '50' guy, may take into account the financial aspect of slowing cars down too much as not being practical.
The '30' guy points to saving more lives.....but doesn't take into account that people would need to be on the roads for longer (they can't go as fast) which means more cars on the road at once, and more traffic as a result. Also be away from home and family for longer.
Unintended consequences directly related to the 'choice' of speed and what they were trying to achieve (lower deaths from cars) but not realising that it meant more time away from home which could lead to more stress etc etc.

So back to lockdowns....someone somewhere made a judgement on when and for how long we should go into lockdowns. Clearly that view is different to those of the other states. Victoria has been in more lockdowns that everyone else combined i believe...and by a fair margin IIRC.
So.....is it not possible that the people who are deciding on lockdowns have gone overly cautious and are putting people under more stress than is really required for the sake of minimal improvement in deaths from covid....and at the same time causing more deaths from unintended consequences of these lockdowns?

In short, focussing on deaths from covid at the expense of everything else is overly simplistic and flat out wrong IMO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 14, 2021, 03:35:23 pm
For every person that dies of COVID-19, there are many others that will suffer from the growing list of related long term effects, at great cost to the community.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 14, 2021, 04:03:49 pm

In short, focussing on deaths from covid at the expense of everything else is overly simplistic and flat out wrong IMO.

It's pretty b00dy stupid to call for fewer cars on the road and then rely on public transport that runs on electricity which requires the burning of coal and you demolish power stations. 

Addle brained decisions versus obvious consequences.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 14, 2021, 08:51:56 pm
Victoria has had way more deaths than other States. More deaths/infections means tougher measures to arrest exponential spread.

Love the way some are reinventing the wheel and expecting a standing ovation. The Herald Sun and SkyNews made it their mission to take down Daniel Andrews. Remember the Dictator Dan sledges? And of course the Liberal leader tried to take the ball and run with it. Lockdowns are imprisoning the innocent! Think of the kids and mental health! Masks are an infringement of civil liberties! The measures imposed are excessive and we can manage with much less interference from Govt! The cure can’t be worse than the disease!

They were all flummoxed by how little their joint campaign achieved. They were astonished by how popular “Dictator Dan” remained. The Herald Sun dialled back the rhetoric.

The reason the attack failed was that the overwhelming majority realise Covid is a lethal pandemic and it requires a vigorous response. That hasn’t changed.

We’re told other States have a more relaxed or sensible attitude towards controlling Covid. And yet our northern neighbours reacted with alarm when a handful of Victorians crossed their borders. And we know West Australia has been to the High Court to retain its border lockdown.

I’m thinking politicians are the last people on Earth who will impose more repressive restrictions on the public than are necessary. I’d imagine Labor MPs are sick and tired of being approached by hotel lobbyists and gym owners. I’m sure the Government has heard from mental health professionals and business people. The idea that some keyboard warriors have seen something that has been missed in setting policy is laughable. And I’d imagine they actually have more data to guide decision-making than the bald assertions made in this thread.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 14, 2021, 10:04:54 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/dec/21/daniel-andrews-apologises-for-botched-hotel-quarantine-program-in-victoria

No its not Dans fault, he fecked up quarantine, didnt know who authorized the private security, and cut funding to the infectious disease tracing area.
Head of the enquiry, retired Judge Jennifer Coate found Andrews and the former health minister, Jenny Mikakos, had played no part in the decision to use private security??????, and while the police minister, Lisa Neville, was aware of the proposal, the report found she was not responsible. The jobs minister, Martin Pakula, “appears not to have been told” until after private security was engaged.
So millions got paid to that muppet security firm and no one knew anything about it?...thats re-assuring...

He decided he needed a sacrificial lamb to appease the restless natives so he threw  Jenny Mikakos under the CoVid bus to save his reputation......of course they both were doing their Sgt Schultz impersonation(I know nothing) but she had to take one for the team as far as Dan was concerned and save the leader.
The outbreaks of Covid-19 in two quarantine hotels – the Rydges on Swanston (now known as the Park Hotel) and the Stamford Plaza – accounted for more than 20,000 cases of Covid-19 and more than 800 deaths.
How lucky Dan is to have such a lame and impotent opposition led by a faceless leader....he might do a Bradbury and we might have to suffer another three years of his mismanagement....

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 14, 2021, 10:20:39 pm
We're pretty stupid in Victoria sometimes @ElwoodBlues1 ...  >:(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 14, 2021, 11:46:26 pm
What? There were 20,000 cases in quarantine hotels? Wait a minute ... there must have been a few cases of infected people leaving those hotels and then it ripped through the community. You’d almost say it was highly infectious and lockdowns were required to stop the spread. But maybe that was too harsh and we should have considered suicidality and the loss of businesses. Like, how bad could it have ended up?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 15, 2021, 12:47:32 am
You’d have thought those who are concerned about the impact of lockdowns would concentrate on the reports that deaths from heart attacks and diabetes have increased in the wake of Covid. Among the possible causes are failing to seek or continue medical treatment for such serious conditions, lack of exercise while staying home, adopting unhealthy habits, change of lifestyle including loss of work, and  stress. These aren’t exclusive to lockdowns of course as they also apply to those who have tried to minimise their risk of exposure when that wasn’t mandated and to those who have been anxious about Covid generally. It’ll be interesting to see where the studies take us.

The data from overseas is perhaps less relevant than Australian data. In particular, the US is probably a poor comparison. The health system over there is heavily reliant on health insurance. The uninsured often defer seeking medical treatment for fear of being bankrupted after doing so (and the uninsured have a lower life expectancy as a result). Unfortunately, many Americans have relied upon insurance coverage provided by their employers. Presumably, a lot of Americans lost their health insurance along with their jobs when the pandemic hit.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 15, 2021, 07:25:14 am
You’d have thought those who are concerned about the impact of lockdowns would concentrate on the reports that deaths from heart attacks and diabetes have increased in the wake of Covid. Among the possible causes are failing to seek or continue medical treatment for such serious conditions, lack of exercise while staying home, adopting unhealthy habits, change of lifestyle including loss of work, and  stress. These aren’t exclusive to lockdowns of course as they also apply to those who have tried to minimise their risk of exposure when that wasn’t mandated and to those who have been anxious about Covid generally. It’ll be interesting to see where the studies take us.

The data from overseas is perhaps less relevant than Australian data. In particular, the US is probably a poor comparison. The health system over there is heavily reliant on health insurance. The uninsured often defer seeking medical treatment for fear of being bankrupted after doing so (and the uninsured have a lower life expectancy as a result). Unfortunately, many Americans have relied upon insurance coverage provided by their employers. Presumably, a lot of Americans lost their health insurance along with their jobs when the pandemic hit.

Could argue those deaths are exacerbated by lockdowns and the health services putting a lot of their surgeries on hold, people being stressed about how they are going to make ends meet.  Home schooling kids.  Kids are definitely impacted in ways that won't show for years.

Meanwhile, your arguments are too simplistic.

1.5 years later this doesn't look like a pandemic to me but a massive over reaction.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 15, 2021, 08:12:10 am
Could argue those deaths are exacerbated by lockdowns and the health services putting a lot of their surgeries on hold, people being stressed about how they are going to make ends meet.  Home schooling kids.  Kids are definitely impacted in ways that won't show for years.

Meanwhile, your arguments are too simplistic.

1.5 years later this doesn't look like a pandemic to me but a massive over reaction.
Over reaction? Not really, I think we have seen it slaughter other countries so control is important. Have we taken it to the extreme? Possibly here in Victoria but there is no way they were going to allow a repeat of the first Quarantine outbreak to occur so I can understand the caution. Perhaps they need to devise a mechanism to control specific out breaks (ie localised lockdowns or the like) although we can see with this latest one how quickly it spreads from one suburb to another and another etc.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 15, 2021, 10:12:46 am
Its really hard to quantify.  We've had the majority of our cases and death in an aged care setting.

Its like conducting an opinion poll and extrapolating results against a population with a sample size that doesn't represent the majority.

When you factor in massaging of statistics (comorbidities ignored) it has hairs on it.

Did you go make salami?  Where can I pick one up??
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 15, 2021, 10:13:35 am
On a side note just got my first Pfizer dose.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 15, 2021, 10:22:43 am
Its really hard to quantify.  We've had the majority of our cases and death in an aged care setting.

Its like conducting an opinion poll and extrapolating results against a population with a sample size that doesn't represent the majority.

When you factor in massaging of statistics (comorbidities ignored) it has hairs on it.

Did you go make salami?  Where can I pick one up??
Not yet mate, maybe this weekend if we get out of jail and I can get the meat from my supplier. I'll let you know in 10 weeks ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Slowhand on June 15, 2021, 12:26:37 pm
Was looking forwatd to watching our young Ocean Grove Seniors take on Flag favourites Torquay this weekend. 
But wait -

No Spectators allowed, No Bar, No Canteen.

FFS enough is enough........ >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 15, 2021, 12:38:53 pm
Long COVID-19 is real, it isn't just about deaths.

Currently the global average for long COVID-19 is that 15% of people infected survivors still have significant symptoms beyond 3 months. The spectrum ranges from headaches and twitches to serious heart and lung or neuromuscular conditions, it even looks like some who were classified as asymptomatic in the initial diagnosis will also be affected in someway long term.

In the USA the researchers fear is that many more cases go undiagnosed than they realise, some are now being picked up as high viral load but asymptomatic using flow cytometry and lateral flow tests, which are very sensitive compared to PCR but for medium and high level infections will give very reliable viral load counts. Initially they thought only about 5% of cases might be asymptomatic and infectious, but the early figures are showing up to 35% of cases are asymptomatic with medium to high viral load and infectious. If 15% of those have long term health effects the impact of Sars-CoV-2 is going to be significant and very expensive. In the USA obviously a lot of it is privatised, but in a place like here or the UK the burden on the public health system could be disastrous for everyone, even those who think staying isolated and healthy are going to be hit, imagine what might happen to health insurance costs!

When you start to add these impacts to the more immediate deadly effects, you can understand why the authorities are so jumpy.

For those of you who trust The Economist or Forbes, here is a nice plain language summary in Forbes,

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2021/04/11/how-common-is-long-covid-new-studies-suggest-more-than-previously-thought/?sh=6f5aa1a6ee03

This article makes a claim that in one study they found vaccination even after an infection reduces long COVID symptoms, I haven't found the sources for that I'd be a bit sceptical, the reporting articles paraphrase a lot so you have to be careful, and they might just be local effects based on small numbers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 15, 2021, 12:53:48 pm
Interesting counterpoint in the UK. The conservative Government has just extended their lockdown for 4 more weeks. This is despite 60% of the population having had the first dose vaccine. And it’s also despite the current total of infections being a mere fraction of those at the peak a few months back. But the move was driven by a fairly steep recent rise (off a small base) that is blamed on the Delta variant. The hope is that the extended lockdown buys time to ensure 80% of the population can be vaccinated.

Many Tory MPs are frothing at the mouth, saying the lockdown is too excessive given the sorts of concerns raised in this thread.

Bear in mind Australia has botched its vaccination program and only around 20% of the population has received a 1st dose and hardly anyone has had the 2nd.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 15, 2021, 01:01:53 pm
Interesting counterpoint in the UK. The conservative Government has just extended their lockdown for 4 more weeks.
Yes, you have to wonder what they know regarding the health and financial costs of COVID-19.

I'd imagine if we'd been at that level of vaccination our country would be wide open under Scotty from Marketing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 15, 2021, 01:06:13 pm
The message is "own the criminal" and it must apply in this instance.  It surely will
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 15, 2021, 02:15:12 pm
WWG1WGA
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 15, 2021, 02:44:49 pm
The UK "lock downs"  are not what people here think they are.

https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-52530518


Quote

Some Covid restrictions in England will stay in place for now, the government has confirmed.

It had hoped to "remove all legal limits on social contact" from 21 June. That's been put back until 19 July - although a review will take place in two weeks.

So, this is what has been announced today.  FYI, my brother lives in London so I have a local viewpoint of what has been going on as well even though it is through one persons lens.

in any case:

Quote
What's been announced?

The delay is because of concerns over the Delta variant of Covid. Cases are growing by about 64% per week and in the worst affected areas are doubling, UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson said.

More time is needed to vaccinate people before remaining rules can be lifted, the PM said.

However, a few restrictions are being lifted:

    The number of guests at a wedding will no longer be limited to 30, although venues and hosts will have to do a risk assessment to ensure social distancing can take place (similar rules apply to wakes)
    Care home residents will not necessarily have to self-isolate after leaving their care homes, and they will be able to nominate an "essential care-giver" who can visit, even if they are self-isolating
    Children can go on overnight trips in groups of 30 with, for example, the Scouts or Guides, or as part of summer residential schools
    Also, large events pilots will continue, including more Euro 2020 games and a number of other sports, arts and music events

There is a lot in there, but fork me, if we are going to compare the pandemic impact, to people who are currently free to travel across europe (never mind their own nation) we might want to visit what "restrictions" look like for them.

Ill re-iterate something here.  The English Premier League season, and European Champions League was hindered for a few weeks in total, and has had the odd spot fire and for the most part continued without fans as scheduled.

Look whats happening here by contrast.  FWIW, my brother just attended a music festival this weekend in Reading.  (Outside of his LGA).


AS an aside, I am a follower of Jason Byrne (irish comedian) and he calls the Irish government, (Gobsh-ites) as being lacksdaisacal with the approach. 


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 15, 2021, 03:06:03 pm
Look whats happening here by contrast.  FWIW, my brother just attended a music festival this weekend in Reading.  (Outside of his LGA).
Does your brother get to Madejski Stadium much?

I've seen a few games there, soccer and rugby union, it's a reasonable venue for something privately owned and developed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 15, 2021, 03:11:47 pm
Yes, the UK lockdown is different. For a start, it’s a NATIONAL lockdown that’s 4 months old and the restrictions and it’s now in Stage 4, with the earlier restrictions being harsher. And they now have 60% of their population protected by a first dose. When will we be able to claim that; maybe at the end of this year if we’re lucky? But if we were at 60% right now, I’d imagine heads would be exploding in Melbourne if we still had any lockdown.

And don’t minimise the current restrictions: the Brits certainly aren’t: Restaurants & Pubs “face collapse” during extended England lockdown (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jun/14/restaurants-and-pubs-face-collapse-during-extended-england-lockdown), the Guardian.
Quote
The Night Time Industries Association chief executive, Michael Kill, said the government had “switched the lights off” for the sector by extending restrictions – which include a bar on nightclubs reopening and limits on large events and performances – without offering any new help.

An NTIA survey found that one in four night-time economy firms, such as nightclubs and bars, don’t expect to survive the extra four weeks.
And we’re in our 2nd week of lockdown with a lessening of restrictions after the 1st week.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 15, 2021, 03:32:07 pm
Does your brother get to Madejski Stadium much?

I've seen a few games there, soccer and rugby union, it's a reasonable venue for something privately owned and developed.

I couldn't tell you he's in the notting hill area and has spent the last year hanging out with his mates and not adhering to their "strict" lockdowns in which you could go and do whatever with minimal policing.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 15, 2021, 03:33:01 pm
Yes, the UK lockdown is different. For a start, it’s a NATIONAL lockdown that’s 4 months old and the restrictions and it’s now in Stage 4, with the earlier restrictions being harsher. And they now have 60% of their population protected by a first dose. When will we be able to claim that; maybe at the end of this year if we’re lucky? But if we were at 60% right now, I’d imagine heads would be exploding in Melbourne if we still had any lockdown.

And don’t minimise the current restrictions: the Brits certainly aren’t: Restaurants & Pubs “face collapse” during extended England lockdown (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jun/14/restaurants-and-pubs-face-collapse-during-extended-england-lockdown), the Guardian.And we’re in our 2nd week of lockdown with a lessening of restrictions after the 1st week.

You would have to live there to understand their lockdowns but my brother had a better Easter and Christmas than we did in the height of their lockdowns. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 15, 2021, 04:01:09 pm
I’m guessing he doesn’t like going to nightclubs ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 15, 2021, 04:09:53 pm
I’m guessing he doesn’t like going to nightclubs ...

Said he had a great time in Camden town a couple of weeks ago.

Live music and nightlife.

Maybe the rules are written but unfollowed...  🤫🤫🤫
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 15, 2021, 04:53:52 pm
There are plenty of people here, no doubt, who don’t seem to be restricted by the current rules.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 16, 2021, 12:10:03 am
Hmmm ... looks like the Hotel Quarantine system has stuffed up again. But this time it was in NSW. Seems Covid jumped between 3 returned travellers. As we know from the SA breach, if someone is infected at the end of their quarantine period, Covid hitches a ride out of Hotel quarantine. This is not a system that is fit for purpose.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 16, 2021, 12:15:40 am
No return travellers then no problems..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 16, 2021, 02:37:56 pm
No return travellers then no problems..
Should have started building a purpose designed facilities in April last year. The money this rubbish has cost the governments they could have built 10 facilities. Experts (I personally know one expert in containment facilities) wrote to the Governments in March last year telling them hotels would not cut it and why. They were ignored in typical government bureaucratic fashion until only recently, too late. You pissed 8-10 valuable months up against the wall. We have so many extremely  smart, talented people, world leaders in the field, in this country and yet we are so dumb. I have collaborated with people in other countries in design of various types of facilities in the Pharma space and I can tell you from experience, our engineers and architects run rings around their overseas counterparts. So frustrating.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 16, 2021, 04:13:24 pm
Yep. Elimination just bought us time to build fit-for-purpose facilities and conduct a speedy vaccine rollout. But I guess instead it fed a fingers-crossed approach in the hope they could save a few dollars on those 2 priorities.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 16, 2021, 05:16:04 pm
Don't get started on qr codes and contact tracing.  It took 12 months to get a decent system for checking in everywhere using the Victoria app whilst an over complicated and engineered Bluetooth app took precedence.

Our governments obsession with making all our decisions for us is stupid when they can't make any of their own. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on June 16, 2021, 11:08:15 pm
For any who are serious about  this virus thing.

3 hours, but a truly exceptional listen/watch to three very bright dudes.

Of course LP will know better, even better than the inventor of the mRNA mechanism, but that's ok, we should all bow in the presence of greatness.,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_NNTVJzqtY
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 17, 2021, 08:27:44 am
Of course LP will know better, even better than the inventor of the mRNA mechanism, but that's ok, we should all bow in the presence of greatness.,
Your willingness to misrepresent the position of Dr Robert Malone by association with Kirsch and Weinstein exposes your willingness to deceive in this debate.

For those interested but haven't time to listen to the full debate, this was a "What if" COVID can be driven to extinction, based on Weinstein's premise that Ivermectin is safe, cheap and effective.

Firstly, even in the debate they refer to Ivermectin use as part of a complimentary drug regime, not in isolation. Secondly, in the regime Weinstein profligates, the cost of Ivermectin is 500% more than the vaccines and must be ongoing on an annual basis, even without the cost$ of the complimentary drugs required. Like Remdesivir, some but not all of the complimentary drugs are hundreds or thousands of dollars per dose. You can hear this at about the 1:49 min mark.

Secondly, the very concept of the debate, extinction of Sars-CoV-2 is laughable. Dr Malone doesn't describe to that, it's a fairy tale scenario, and Kirsch and Weinstein basically talk over him to shut that point down. Sars-CoV-2 is endemic, that means it in the environment not just humans, you can't just treat humans and make it extinct, because for example it is in birds, bats, cats, dogs and any other number of viral vectors.

Weinstein keeps referring to all the anti-viral alternatives as "cheap and safe" ignoring that most aren't cheap at all, and not necessarily safe either. For example he talks about the complimentary use of Ivermectin and Fluvoxamine in one moment, then later warns of the Fluvoxamine cognitive side-effects, while Kirsch argues for Fluvoxamine use in children while claiming it's safe over a 14 day treatment period, yet 14 days won't get the extinction job done. The safety of these drugs is based on the concept they are administered to a small portion of the population(patients), and so the side-effect risk is low, but in the prophylactic regime that Weinstein promotes it is required to issue them to billions of healthy people on an ongoing basis.

Kirsch is correct in one point, Sars-CoV-2 is so complex there is no one correct safe solution, but Ivermectin boosters can't use Kirsch's arguments as support because he states multiple times in this debate that Ivermectin as anti-viral is of minimal benefit.

Weinstein always refers to Ivermectin's use in some kind of reasonable combination, without discussing the combination $ or the side-effects of those combinations! Some of the combinations Weinstein discusses will result in ongoing cost$ 1000% higher than the cost of the vaccines, some with serious well known long term side-effects if used long term which are far worse than the vaccine side-effects.

When the large scale studies become available, due in the 4th Qtr of this year, the outcome will be of interest to everyone, but until that data is available it's a coin toss if any of these drugs have any real benefit.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on June 17, 2021, 08:30:33 am
Firstly, thank you again to PAULY, for introducing me to 'The Conversation.' Such a high level of journalism.

This article today I, personally, found really helpful among a plethora of confusing and misinformation.

https://theconversation.com/which-covid-vaccine-is-best-heres-why-thats-really-hard-to-answer-161185?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20June%2017%202021%20-%201976519392&utm_content=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20June%2017%202021%20-%201976519392+CID_756b5685e4ba2ca8200e9e5b2191cd2d&utm_source=campaign_monitor&utm_term=Which%20COVID%20vaccine%20is%20best%20Heres%20why%20thats%20really%20hard%20to%20answer
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 17, 2021, 09:57:49 am
The Delta variant is serious. Here’s why it's on the rise (https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/the-delta-variant-is-serious-heres-why-its-on-the-rise), National Geographic.

Good article. This observation is really interesting:

Quote
If a mutation gives a virus a fitness or reproductive advantage, that mutation tends to evolve independently around the world. Delta, its closely related variants, and the highly contagious Alpha variant all carry a mutation at position 681 of the spike protein, which is thought to be an evolutionary game changer that also makes it easier for SARS-CoV-2 to invade the host cell and spread. This mutation is fast becoming common in COVID-19 viruses around the globe.

I guess I’ve been assuming that we can keep the Delta variant out of Australia with proper border controls. But it seems that is only part of the answer. If any Covid strain flourishes in Australia, eventually we’ll end up with the Delta variant or worse. Learning to live with the virus as advocated by the “we have to open up and get on with business” crew means we’ll eventually end up with a virus that causes “breakthrough infections” in the fully vaccinated. We just have to hope new vaccines come out that will continue to give us an edge over Covid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 17, 2021, 10:55:45 am
The Delta variant is serious. Here’s why it's on the rise (https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/the-delta-variant-is-serious-heres-why-its-on-the-rise), National Geographic.

Good article. This observation is really interesting:

I guess I’ve been assuming that we can keep the Delta variant out of Australia with proper border controls. But it seems that is only part of the answer. If any Covid strain flourishes in Australia, eventually we’ll end up with the Delta variant or worse. Learning to live with the virus as advocated by the “we have to open up and get on with business” crew means we’ll eventually end up with a virus that causes “breakthrough infections” in the fully vaccinated. We just have to hope new vaccines come out that will continue to give us an edge over Covid.

Surely keeping it out minimises the chances of it flourishing though Mav? The low case numbers thus far is also a plus I would guess.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 17, 2021, 11:30:45 am
For sure. If we allowed free entry to those coming from India without any quarantine or testing, we’d be overrun by the Delta variant within a few weeks. Keeping out the “foreign” Delta variant is critical. But the article points out that we can’t proceed on the assumption that we can allow less dangerous variants to circulate as eventually they’ll mutate into the Delta variant or worse. Therefore we have to get as close to elimination as possible as well as keeping the Delta variant out. The problem is that the armchair epidemiologists amongst us tend to assume that our success in wrangling the virus to date means we can assume we’re only going to get better at containment so we can relax our controls. The problem is Covid is also improving and it’ll be just like an arms race. We need to improve quarantine and vaccination rates to stay ahead in the race.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on June 17, 2021, 11:32:20 am
Astra Z only recommended for 60+ now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 17, 2021, 11:43:05 am
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/people-are-shopping-around-for-preferred-vaccines-rollout-causes-problems-for-gps-20210616-p581fa.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 17, 2021, 12:12:06 pm
Astra Z only recommended for 60+ now.
Should be scrapped... I believe insurance companies are concerned about long haul travel and increased claims for thrombosis, blood clots and will either up premiums or refuse to pay.
Why doesn't the govt bite the bullet and scrap the AstraZ, why continue this mass experiment on 60 plus lab rats..
Qld are giving over 50s the choice of Pfizer or AstraZ... Dan needs to do similar in Victoria.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 17, 2021, 12:35:59 pm
Should be scrapped...
What to replace it with?

I think this is just a sign of more political and bureaucratic interference.

The risk data doesn't indicate that any one vaccine is better or safer than the other, so I have to wonder if the bureaucrats are feathering the bed to avoid litigation, leave the choice up to the punter and the oldies could die of COVID-19 anyway!

Nobody wants to kill anybody, that is only natural.

The problem I see is that the latest data is pointing to long COVID-19 being much more serious than previously expected, even in the young.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 17, 2021, 12:47:10 pm
What to replace it with?
Read my updated post above... Why should 60 plus citizens be put at risk..?
Its not the Soylent Green era yet...
Italy have just scrapped it for U60s too...
Why continue pushing the age back?.. Just end it now and scrap the AstraZ..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 17, 2021, 12:50:16 pm
Read my updated post above... Why should 60 plus citizens be put at risk..?
Its not the Soylent Green era yet...
Hmmm, the real world data suggests the complications from Pfizer are quite different but just as serious, I think PaulP or Mav have already pointed that out in this thread.

The truth is any vaccine in some very rare cases has unwanted side-effects, it may be a case of better the devil you know, especially now that researchers in Melbourne are saying they can early diagnose the treat AZ TTS side-effects.

We do not want to see our kids getting a mild dose of COVID-19, then dropping dead of a heart attack or stroke on the football pitch months later.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 17, 2021, 12:57:03 pm
Should 50-60 year olds have priority access to Pfizer over 40-50 year olds or over 30-40 year olds who haven’t yet been eligible for any vaccine in Vic? What about under 30s? I’d think that those in the 50-60 year age group who have failed to get any vaccine over the last month or so should have no priority unless they’re otherwise in a vulnerable category. There’s insufficient supplies of Pfizer vaccine already and they should compete for spots.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 17, 2021, 01:40:04 pm
What does the data show about long covid?

Is it prevalent?  I.e. out of 100% of cases, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50% experience long covid??


We got told about this highly infectious, and virulent, and transmissable disease.

We have also been told a lot of bollocks about it, half truths, incomplete truths, random guesses, and very little transparency about it all which makes it all problematic for anyone to formulate a proper opinion.

The realist in me sees a fundamental problem.  We analyse, 1's and 0's.  The data is just data after all, its the assumptions formulated on said data that becomes a bit rubbery as we speculate on impact based on assumptions using data that is global but not modelled on the same demographics. 

The assumptions (rightly) will be geared to a worst case scenario in a plan for the worst hope for the best scenario.

Even an extrapolated sample size of Australian data is not really telling of the story.  We have 800 deaths out of 30000 that was a sample size heavily impacted by outbreaks in aged care settings which will produce biased results.

Thats not to belittle what happened here, or take away from the fact that people died or that people have gotten sick.

This is purely an effort to highlight some very real issues.

What does our data show?

Did many go to hospital because of covid or with covid?

What are the impacts aside from some flaky symptoms that are flu like?

What are the impacts of long covid (my only two first hand sources are sense of taste and smell impacted, and the other with random chest tightness but is bipolar, has anxiety and was relatively unscathed otherwise and only quit smoking in April of last year, after smoking for 20 years)?

How many of our recent cases got admitted to hospital?  What was the impact of these recent 100 odd cases we have found out about to their health and well being?  We dont need names, ages, date of births, just some high level information about the demographics will do:  i.e. of our 100 odd, we had x that were aged 0-10, 10-20 etc and of those x were admitted to hospital for treatment with the following symptoms (etc etc etc).

Instead we get told about numbers numbers numbers and we need to lockdown for everyone's safety because this highly dangerous and transmissable strain, never really gets discussed about impacts which leaves a vacuum for people to fill in their own information with their own faulty assumptions which sways public opinion.

You know, I came to the following realisation and it actually is a better thing for people to know that the government was being transparent.  Instead we here this rhetoric about the approach to lockdowns.  From midnight friday, xyz is in place or no longer in place.  This is bad information and approach that is geared towards control and enforcement.  Instead we should be hearing "we have discovered X, and we encourage Y, and from midnight tonight we will be policing it to try and get on top of this but encourage that if you can do the 5 reasons you should and must do those reasons where possible"  THAT is a better message and people are going to go raid the shops anyway and do what they need to do before going home, so we may as well do that.  Instead we get this wishy-washy approach which is half bad communication, and bad planning.  You know, if they said we are now recommending X as of right this minute based on the changing landscape, it would do more to instill confidence in people than the rubbery appraoch we have and it might make people consider their actions more, rather than squeezing in that holiday and running up the coast in a caravan they might be more responsible.  They might not, but that's happening anyway and the longer we proceed like this, after 1.5 years of this bamboozling mess, the harder its going to be to get people to do the responsible thing based on good information and using valued judgements.  Instead we encourage them to do "whatever it takes (deliberate use to highlight the real issues)" to get back to "normal".

Tell people the hard truths.  Pandemics are responsible for global changes to normality and normality shifted as a result of them.

We don't know enough about COVID to draw any real conclusion, so this is the state of play:

1.  Covid globally has caused a pandemic to occur and thus far we have thanks largely to good fortune and some decent planning (nope, politicians will never do this) avoided it becoming an epidemic here (terminology deliberate, look them up).

2.  It seems to cause issues and grief regardless of age but not in all cases.  you can gamble with your health if you wish, but dont blame us later if it goes pear shaped.

3.  There is a lot of asymptomatic spread here, and thats ok, but globally that might not be the case and show the data.  Our cases might simply be good luck, but here is the data on what WE have seen, vs what the world has seen which is WHY we take our appraoch (take people with you, dont just talk at them.  Some will STFU because of it, rather than fill in the blanks.

4.  The vaccines are our best protection method but we might see the virus mutate to resist them rendering them useless (dont pussy foot about it, just say it as it is).  You don't have to have one, we won't make you take one, but you would feel pretty stupid if you ended up a statistic with one being made available to you that you refused to take because XYZ excuse. The reality is, we are doing our best here, but we just dont know enough so we are encouraging those most at risk to go for it, and let the others do what they think is necessary (messaging is better).

5.  After seeing the way the government keep bungling every thing up, why on earth would anyone buy into some conspiracy theory about the suppression of one treatment over another anyway?  There is nothing to suggest that the vaccine isnt just a placebo to calm the masses (this is my personal favourite as it is the most polarising, and I expect no one officially to come out and say it).

6.  The alternative medicines are as horrific as any vaccine with side effects.  Most doctors pushing said treatments are likely to be in big pharma's pocket anyway.  So, we will make these drugs available to you if you want them, but you decide if you want them knowing that these are the side effects.

This is really not hard.  For some reason, society has gone down a road where we insist on protecting everyone from themselves. 

Let them decide whats good for them, and then let natural selection do the rest.

I have seen this play out in a lot of walks of life.  We insist on protecting people from themselves.  Stop it.  Let them be what they want, and protect yourselves and stop mandating others do similar.  We can all barricade ourselves indoors for the next 10 years if we must, and the life we live wont be worth talking about which is a complete waste of time, effort and energy.  Encourage people to do what they want to.  Life is too short to spend any extended period of time being told you cannot because the big bad wolf is  out there, and we know he is out there, but when you look out the window, he is nowhere to be seen.

Draw your own conclusions here.  I don't have answers for you, but here is my reason for me being vaccinated:

IF I take covid into an ICU, and I am a direct cause for one patient being sick and ergo dying ahead of their time, because I refused a vaccine, I probably couldn't bear the thought of ignoring the bit in bold.  Apply the same to my loved ones.  This was not an easy decision to make, because my assumption is that this vaccine is at best a time buying exercise for a world in a "pandemic" which in time we will look back and see that COVID wasnt really that big a deal.

That might be a best case scenario really, but I see it as massively likely, but even so, in case its not (nothing is certain in life) I took my vaccine anyway.  The part that everyone is going to have time coming to terms with, is vaccine or not, will covid's impact be any different?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 17, 2021, 01:52:06 pm
Quote from: Thryleon
I have seen this play out in a lot of walks of life.  We insist on protecting people from themselves.  Stop it.  Let them be what they want, and protect yourselves and stop mandating others do similar.
I want to be protected from other people. That’s the idea behind drink-driving laws and many other types of laws. If someone wants to commit suicide in their own home, so be it. No point outlawing suicide. But if someone thinks they have the right to endanger everyone else, their claim to individual freedom is BS. In a decent society, people should be willing to rally together for the common good. If they won’t, that’s when laws are required.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 17, 2021, 01:53:31 pm
What does the data show about long covid?

Is it prevalent?  I.e. out of 100% of cases, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50% experience long covid??

Even an extrapolated sample size of Australian data is not really telling of the story.  We have 800 deaths out of 30000 that was a sample size heavily impacted by outbreaks in aged care settings which will produce biased results.
Thry, there is no real long COVID-19 data for Aust but the early USA data is saying 30% of all COVID-19 infections will result in some form of long COVID-19 health impact. They can't tell you what those impacts will be because they are on a spectrum from mild head aches, loss of smell/taste, to in the worst case heart and kidney failure. But they are already getting enough of an idea in the US on the potential cost$ simply because they have so so many cases, there is UK data due out in the coming weeks.

If the US stats are global, then of our 30000 cases 10000 would suffer long term COVID-19 effects.

Even Flyboys Ivermectin boosters are crapting themselves, because it looks like once long COVID-19 kicks in there is little or no effective treatment for it, and none of them expected asymptomatic types to suffer long COVID-19 but it looks like from the US stats even asymptomatic types can get long COVID-19. Those patients are going to become DALY or QALY statistics. For example, in the US long COVID-19 stats there are indications a percentage of infected will come out of it with diabetes, and that applies as a spectrum across all ages not just elderly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 17, 2021, 02:28:41 pm
Should 50-60 year olds have priority access to Pfizer over 40-50 year olds or over 30-40 year olds who haven’t yet been eligible for any vaccine in Vic? What about under 30s? I’d think that those in the 50-60 year age group who have failed to get any vaccine over the last month or so should have no priority unless they’re otherwise in a vulnerable category. There’s insufficient supplies of Pfizer vaccine already and they should compete for spots.
Those in the 50 plus range should have equal opportunity to get the Pfizer. Why have Queensland decided to offer the choice?
Why should older Australians be lab rats for a dodgy vaccine that no one wants.
The Govt signed a deal with CSL to produce AstraZ but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have a choice. There are plenty of older folk with conditions that will make it risky for them to have AstraZ.. Why not scrap it now and play it safe..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 17, 2021, 02:41:54 pm
The rollout had a stage where only those 60+ were eligible for the vaccine (leaving aside vulnerable categories and certain workers. Then at a certain date, it was 50+ and 60+ people had no priority over 50+ people. Now  those who are 40+ are eligible, meaning the 50-60 year olds have no priority over the 40-50 year olds. Surely you’re not suggesting the 50-60 year olds should now be able to claim priority over the 40-50 year olds? And surely it’s time for the general category to be opened up to the 30+ ...

EDIT: I think we’re saying the same thing EB - the 50 to 60 year olds should have no priority concerning the Pfizer vaccine and should have just the same right as others in the under-60s general category. I guess the only issue you’ve taken further is the right of over-60s to chose Pfizer. If 60 is a safe limit, then the Govt should be able to only offer AZ given the need to ration Pfizer. Over 60s don’t have to take it. But I’m not in any position to comment on whether it’s safe or not.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 17, 2021, 03:03:25 pm
It's something of a mess but is much of it perceived or does it actually have some teeth?

The speed in distribution is arguably more in question imo rather than the "brand" of vaccine.

I'm not about to assign blame to that with the Feds, much the same as I didn't with floods or the all too recent bushfires, but this is an unseemly political bunfight.    
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 17, 2021, 04:25:15 pm
The rollout had a stage where only those 60+ were eligible for the vaccine (leaving aside vulnerable categories and certain workers. Then at a certain date, it was 50+ and 60+ people had no priority over 50+ people. Now  those who are 40+ are eligible, meaning the 50-60 year olds have no priority over the 40-50 year olds. Surely you’re not suggesting the 50-60 year olds should now be able to claim priority over the 40-50 year olds? And surely it’s time for the general category to be opened up to the 30+ ...

EDIT: I think we’re saying the same thing EB - the 50 to 60 year olds should have no priority concerning the Pfizer vaccine and should have just the same right as others in the under-60s general category. I guess the only issue you’ve taken further is the right of over-60s to chose Pfizer. If 60 is a safe limit, then the Govt should be able to only offer AZ given the need to ration Pfizer. Over 60s don’t have to take it. But I’m not in any position to comment on whether it’s safe or not.
Mav, I'm just saying over 60's should have the right to choose Pfizer and the Government should order more instead of persisting with Astraz. Should they have priority over 30-50 year olds...No......but when the Queensland Govt are offering the choice I find it difficult to understand how the Federal Govt are pushing the AstraZ to over 60's and where are the Qld govt getting their supplies of Pfizer from if there is shortage everywhere else.
I think if the Federal Govt scrapped the Astraz and ordered more Pfizer then the vaccination numbers would rapidly increase as I read its the 50-69 year old age group that is lagging in vaccination takeup and the answer why is fairly obvious..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 17, 2021, 07:32:07 pm
Dr Norman Swan is my go to man for most things medical and his Coronacast is very informative.

He has been vaccinated ... with AstraZeneca.  However, he maintains that the Government stuffed up by not ordering different vaccines and more of them.  In other words, rather than penny-pinching with modest purchases, the approach taken with Moderna should have been adopted with all approved vaccines.

I guess you have to lump that in with the failure to build purpose-built quarantine facilities.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 17, 2021, 09:10:49 pm
I want to be protected from other people. That’s the idea behind drink-driving laws and many other types of laws. If someone wants to commit suicide in their own home, so be it. No point outlawing suicide. But if someone thinks they have the right to endanger everyone else, their claim to individual freedom is BS. In a decent society, people should be willing to rally together for the common good. If they won’t, that’s when laws are required.


Lock yourself in your house then.

Covid vaccine will protect you from severe symptoms, but it doesnt stop people from catching cocid nor will it stop people from spreading it.

You can't mandate everyone else be locked up for your safety.

Thats impractical.  Maybe you could move to Antarctica where you'll be safe?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 17, 2021, 09:24:49 pm
And yet the government did mandate restrictions. All to protect me. No one else. Amazing I have that much pull, eh?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 17, 2021, 09:30:56 pm
I want to be protected from other people. That’s the idea behind drink-driving laws and many other types of laws. If someone wants to commit suicide in their own home, so be it. No point outlawing suicide. But if someone thinks they have the right to endanger everyone else, their claim to individual freedom is BS. In a decent society, people should be willing to rally together for the common good. If they won’t, that’s when laws are required.

Yes, I agree.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 17, 2021, 09:46:46 pm
https://theconversation.com/australians-under-60-will-no-longer-receive-the-astrazeneca-vaccine-so-whats-changed-162930

Gives a pretty good summary IMO. Basically, being super cautious.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bricky on June 18, 2021, 06:43:16 am
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/victoria-s-qr-codes-badly-made-developers-say-20210617-p581r6.html
Agree with this, when we were in South Australia several months ago their QR codes loaded much quicker and had a lot less bloat than our Vic app
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 18, 2021, 07:29:26 am
Nature Coronapod - Long COVID
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01603-w

Nice 10min plain language listen, not to much jargon and what jargon they use they explain. No hard data but that is not the point of this podcast, it's basically there to cut through the political, corporate and social media spin.

There are a lot of other Podcasts on the Nature Podcast page, https://www.nature.com/nature/articles?type=nature-podcast
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 18, 2021, 08:01:48 am
On the current AZ debacle, the bureaucrats are wasting millions of 1st doses, lots of people won't go back for a 2nd dose, why?

Interestingly I had an associate in the related chemical industry tell me this sort of change to the recommendations was coming weeks ago, not because of health issues, but apparently there are big glitches in our vaccine supply and manufacturing chain with huge numbers of doses being wasted, in some cases whole batches counting in the millions have been scraped. She said the bureaucrats were going to manipulate the rules to control demand.

Watch what happens, they'll either tell you that you can have any vaccine as the 2nd dose, or they will change the recommendations yet again! If my associate is correct it's all about the supply chain, the Feds do not want to look like they don't know what they are doing!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 18, 2021, 09:27:32 am
People wont go back for a 2nd dose of AstraZ because its dodgy. My wife's relations in Ontario rang for her birthday and said no one wants or trusts the Astraz and only want the Moderna and Pfizer. In fact I think it may have been canned already in Ontario and Calgary plus results using the other vaccines for the 2nd dose have proved more effective than the AstraZ. Governments around the world should stop using it and admit the public don't trust this vaccine and no amount of spin from celebs in ads or Government officials is going to sway perception. You won't get a decent take up until people are offered a choice.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 18, 2021, 10:13:14 am
On the current AZ debacle, the bureaucrats are wasting millions of 1st doses, lots of people won't go back for a 2nd dose, why?

Interestingly I had an associate in the related chemical industry tell me this sort of change to the recommendations was coming weeks ago, not because of health issues, but apparently there are big glitches in our vaccine supply and manufacturing chain with huge numbers of doses being wasted, in some cases whole batches counting in the millions have been scraped. She said the bureaucrats were going to manipulate the rules to control demand.

Watch what happens, they'll either tell you that you can have any vaccine as the 2nd dose, or they will change the recommendations yet again! If my associate is correct it's all about the supply chain, the Feds do not want to look like they don't know what they are doing!

Pot meet kettle.

Tin foil hat theory.

It lives in the same area as the pandemic is a control mechanism and doesn't actually exist.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 18, 2021, 10:13:59 am
And yet the government did mandate restrictions. All to protect me. No one else. Amazing I have that much pull, eh?

Sure they did and each time they do they lose more public trust.

Communist China sounds more your cup of tea mav.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 18, 2021, 12:08:16 pm
Or maybe life under Dictator Boris would be better. Imagine, 4 months of restrictions ...

But surely everyone saw what was hiding in plain sight with that name. Those Russians have taken over the Tory party in the UK just as they took over the GOP in the US! God those commies are sneaky! But I guess we can’t believe our lyin eyes as your brother says that this is all fake news.

Now Gladys has been dragged kicking and screaming into a mask mandate and maybe more to come. But then again her surname sounds like it would have fitted into the former Soviet bloc, so maybe this was always about a commie infiltration.

Love you hard right types. Your freedoms trump everyone else’s. You can do whatever you want while others can only do what doesn’t interfere with you or deviate from what you think they should be doing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 18, 2021, 12:10:35 pm
Combating the long term effects of COVID:

https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2021/release/combating-long-term-effects-of-covid?referrer=organic_social&referrertype=linkedin&fbclid=IwAR1HuxcTHCyl6gCC361OKQ3LDPp-Q_g5IZUug9IROuIKtM0A0xiO2DbuxS8

I can’t wait to get my second AstraZeneca jab!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on June 18, 2021, 12:17:55 pm
Combating the long term effects of COVID:

https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2021/release/combating-long-term-effects-of-covid?referrer=organic_social&referrertype=linkedin&fbclid=IwAR1HuxcTHCyl6gCC361OKQ3LDPp-Q_g5IZUug9IROuIKtM0A0xiO2DbuxS8

I can’t wait to get my second AstraZeneca jab!

Mine is next week.  I'm happy to go ahead with it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 18, 2021, 01:20:47 pm
Or maybe life under Dictator Boris would be better. Imagine, 4 months of restrictions ...

But surely everyone saw what was hiding in plain sight with that name. Those Russians have taken over the Tory party in the UK just as they took over the GOP in the US! God those commies are sneaky! But I guess we can’t believe our lyin eyes as your brother says that this is all fake news.

Now Gladys has been dragged kicking and screaming into a mask mandate and maybe more to come. But then again her surname sounds like it would have fitted into the former Soviet bloc, so maybe this was always about a commie infiltration.

Love you hard right types. Your freedoms trump everyone else’s. You can do whatever you want while others can only do what doesn’t interfere with you or deviate from what you think they should be doing.

Hard right...

We don't need to imagine 4 months of restrictions.  We actually lived it.

I am advocating that people be left to their civil freedoms.

You are advocating infringing on others.  Which ones the fascist??

Ill give you a clue, it aint me.  You are welcome to lock yourself up, but if the vaccine works as well as everyone says it does, once you are vaccinated, you should be an advocate of letting it rip.  If not, you are just controlling others.  Right?

Looks like someone has identified a trait in themselves they dislike and like to attack in others if you ask me.  I am giving you the freedom to lock down just dont mandate everyone do as you do.





Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 18, 2021, 01:46:20 pm
Wow, I’ve gone from Communist to Fascist in the space of 1 tweet. I’m waiting with bated breath for the next tweet but I fear you’ve gone too hard too early. You should have left a little ammunition in reserve ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 18, 2021, 01:52:41 pm
https://au.news.yahoo.com/astrazeneca-antibody-cocktail-fails-prevent-112634030.html?.tsrc=fp_deeplink
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 18, 2021, 02:27:13 pm
https://au.news.yahoo.com/astrazeneca-antibody-cocktail-fails-prevent-112634030.html?.tsrc=fp_deeplink
For people already infected it's unlikely for any vaccine or antibody therapy to work well, it takes weeks for full immunity to build. It's a bit of a moon shot!

I've read some people on social media comparing this antibody therapy to fecal transplants, but that is very wrong. A fecal transplant introduces good bacteria to compete with and displace bad bacteria. It's a war in your gut not in your blood stream, and you probably have this happen dozens of time per year whenever you ingest some raw food.

Foreign antibodies introduced to your blood stream are not a normal occurrence.

For me that report just proves how important it is to be vaccinated before you get a Sars-Cov-2 infection.

Personally, without having any expertise, I think antibody therapies are far far riskier than the vaccines. Vaccines cause your own body to make it's own antibodies, antibody therapy introduces a foreign or synthetic antibody. There is a possibility when introducing a foreign antibody that someone's immune system will react strongly.

Making your own antibodies is a normal everyday occurrence, from pretty much any infection based illness.

Phage therapy is very popular in the Soviet block, it's closer to antibody therapy, but when it goes wrong it's seriously devastating.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 18, 2021, 02:37:05 pm
Pot meet kettle.

Tin foil hat theory.

It lives in the same area as the pandemic is a control mechanism and doesn't actually exist.
Not really, it's just general commentary on human nature, all those panels are susceptible to the authorities that select them. You might see a whistle-blower, but usually that comes after the fact, very rarely do they stick up their head before the battle is decided. They exist in self-preservation.

Surely you are not asserting that people don't have motives for different behaviours, because based on all you have to say about the lockdown so far that would seem to be cherry-picking!

We bump the age limit up to 60, some jurisdictions drop it to 40, both cite the very same science as justification for acting exactly opposite. Some locations have even approved AZ for kids. That is about bureaucracy and human nature, nothing to do with science.

If they really wanted to just follow the science, they'd be recommending AZ for men and Pfizer for women, regardless of age. But they won't because the woke feminists will scream murder and misogyny. So instead they just set an genderless whatever the feck you identify as age bracket.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 18, 2021, 02:41:52 pm
Combating the long term effects of COVID:

https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2021/release/combating-long-term-effects-of-covid?referrer=organic_social&referrertype=linkedin&fbclid=IwAR1HuxcTHCyl6gCC361OKQ3LDPp-Q_g5IZUug9IROuIKtM0A0xiO2DbuxS8

I can’t wait to get my second AstraZeneca jab!
Yep, feck that long COVID, even if you had a mild infection you could be in for long term pain.

The naysayers in the media and politics just aren't respecting the long term effects of a Sars-CoV-2 infection. They spend all their time talking about the deaths, ignoring the disabilities. I think that Nature Podcast I linked asserted much the same, it talks a bit about QALY and DALY.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 18, 2021, 02:46:11 pm
For people already infected it's unlikely for any vaccine or antibody therapy to work well, it takes weeks for full immunity to build. It's a bit of a moon shot!

I've read some people on social media comparing this antibody therapy to fecal transplants, but that is very wrong. A fecal transplant introduces good bacteria to compete with and displace bad bacteria. It's a war in your gut not in your blood stream, and you probably have this happen dozens of time per year whenever you ingest the some raw food.

Foreign antibodies in introduced to your blood stream are not a normal occurrence.

For me that report just proves how important it is to be vaccinated before you get a Sars-Cov-2 infection.

Personally, without having any expertise, I think antibody therapies are far far riskier than the vaccines. Vaccines cause your own body to make it's own antibodies, antibody therapy introduces a foreign or synthetic antibody. There is a possibility when introducing a foreign antibody that someone's immune system will react strongly.

Making your own antibodies is a normal everyday occurrence, from pretty much any infection based illness.

Phage therapy is very popular in the Soviet block, it's closer to antibody therapy, but when it goes wrong it's seriously devastating.
Not my field of expertise, its an interesting angle in treatment but seems full of issues, risks, lack of conclusive results..
This link is a bit of an overview of it all, you are right about the Russians dabbling with it although no data available.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/monoclonal-antibodies-for-covid-19-what-do-we-know-so-far#Anti-CD6-monoclonal-antibodies
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 18, 2021, 02:54:41 pm
Not my field of expertise, its an interesting angle in treatment but seems full of issues, risks, lack of conclusive results..
This link is a bit of an overview of it all, you are right about the Russians dabbling with it although no data available.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/monoclonal-antibodies-for-covid-19-what-do-we-know-so-far#Anti-CD6-monoclonal-antibodies
While there are legitimate hopes for macrophage therapy in treating very serious illness, like cancer, over in Russia it's their health system version of homeopathy. They use it for everything, with extreme claims it can cure poorness, change your luck, or even make your dingle dangle longer!

There are stories of miracle cures for people western medicine had given up on, but there are stories of young wannabe girls going to be treated for acne and ending up on a slab in a morgue!

That is not to say monoclonal antibody or macrophage research isn't worthwhile or isn't viable, but it would be truly ironic for vaccine naysayers to boost either ahead of a 50 year old vaccine technology like AZ or Novavax!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 18, 2021, 04:00:40 pm
https://theconversation.com/concerned-about-the-latest-astrazeneca-news-these-3-graphics-help-you-make-sense-of-the-risk-162175
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on June 18, 2021, 04:30:32 pm
Mother in law has had her second jab and has been experiencing cramps in her legs. The doctor said it's a side effect and to keep an eye on it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 18, 2021, 04:47:50 pm
Wow, I’ve gone from Communist to Fascist in the space of 1 tweet. I’m waiting with bated breath for the next tweet but I fear you’ve gone too hard too early. You should have left a little ammunition in reserve ...

You have never heard of red fascism?

I am shocked, here I was thinking you knew everything.

I leave you this point to ponder:

Quote
The world will now understand that the only real 'ideological' issue is one between democracy, liberty and peace on the one hand and despotism, terror and war on the other.

Liberty, Equality, Fraternity.

look to our leaders to determine whether or not your freedom is slipping away from you for your own good:

Have your vaccine its safe (3 months later, over 60's only).
Flies to NZ and UK to even though we are in a global pandemic, the vaccine is no guarantee of transmission nor efficacy, and yet goes anyway...
Sutton goes to Canberra for an awards ceremony just as we are unlocking the state on our most recent outbreak and we have a rule implemented that states no trip to mount bulla without a negative swab....

Dont question the leader!  Where have we heard that one before? 

The outrage in me grows because I see the hypocrisy both up close and personal every day and have done so for the last year which leads me to believe the following:

This disease isn't dangerous, nor is it highly transmissable.

ELSE:  Scomo stays home because the vaccine isn't bullet proof and mr Sutton doesnt go to Canberra for an awards ceremony at a time, where we cant go to the snow without a covid test.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 18, 2021, 04:58:03 pm
Of course the hard right would come up with “red fascism”. These are the guys who blame Antifa for the insurrection while peaceful Trump-supporting patriots and picnic-goers enjoyed the wonderful carnival atmosphere in and around the Capitol building. And of course as Majorie Green-Taylor has noted, the Nazi party was the National Socialist German Workers' Party so it was a communist front. As if right-wingers with their love of individual freedoms would ever impinge on the rights of others ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 18, 2021, 05:05:07 pm
How about the dingbat from Victoria who tried to escape hotel quarantine in Qld but ended up in hospital after a big fall. “You’ll never take my freedom!” ... splat ... I guess you can, after all.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on June 18, 2021, 05:07:22 pm
Mother in law has had her second jab and has been experiencing cramps in her legs. The doctor said it's a side effect and to keep an eye on it.

Meanwhile, the side effects mount....

https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-17-06-2021

or the UK....

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions#history

Nothing to see here.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 18, 2021, 05:54:11 pm
5 out of those 12 new cases of TTS are over 60 with one being a 59 year yet the Government say its safe for 60 plus citizens to have the AstraZ???????...How many folk out there actually would look at the TGA website to get all these updates/warnings/what to look for etc? Not many IMHO. Why isnt this information being broadcast along with Scotty Cams message to go and get jabbed?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 18, 2021, 06:11:27 pm
This disease isn't dangerous, nor is it highly transmissable.
Good to see you’re owning the belief that drives your posts. Any restriction, no matter how insignificant, would be unwarranted if your belief were correct.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 18, 2021, 06:30:57 pm
Notice that 40% of reported clot cases are considered serious, 23 for Australia.

13 of the 23 required ICU, 2 of the 13 sadly perished.

For both Pfizer and AZ, about 75% of cases are female.

Most male cases are elderly and/or have significant underlying health issues.

So far in Australia there have been 6.1 Million doses administered, I think that means it is safer than eating nuts!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 19, 2021, 08:32:28 pm
Pfizer jab 1 done, only side effect is Carlton is still s-house.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 19, 2021, 08:51:25 pm
Pfizer jab 1 done, only side effect is Carlton is still s-house.

Some psychedelics in the vaccine would have been very handy right about now. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 20, 2021, 12:14:09 am
Good to see you’re owning the belief that drives your posts. Any restriction, no matter how insignificant, would be unwarranted if your belief were correct.
I'm all for being cautious when its a reasonable thing to do.  I championed the effort last year.  Was all for it.

Then this thing kicked in called critical thinking.  I know the motivation is noble but this risk averse approach to dealing with covid is really eating away at the fabric of our society and im seeing lotsof people lose hope and the will to continue.

Meanwhile im watching Hungary vs France play in a packed puskas arena (67000 capacity) while they go through 100 covid cases a day in the summer time.

We didn't have footy played in the state for 2 weeks off 100 cases in a fortnight in the winter time when covid is at its worst.

It doesn't add up Mav.  Covid just isn't that big a deal.  If it were we wouldn't be seeing these things play out.

We'd be hearing about devastating case numbers, and players being sidelined with illness.

Food for thought.  44% of their nation fully vaccinated, less than 55% having had at least one dose.

Its more advanced than we are but they also actually have cases.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 21, 2021, 12:44:01 am
Victor Orban and his far right party are in power in Hungary. Oddly enough, his party has used soccer as a way to entrench its power. They currently control 10 of the 12 top clubs and will increase that to 11 next season. The big stadium is a jewel in the crown. Of course holding the International was politically important. Was it safe? Maybe, but I’m not sure that was a deal-breaker.

Is it simply a coincidence that another far right leader, Brazil’s Bolsonaro, has hosted a big soccer event, Copa America, despite Covid-hit Latin countries being reluctant to act as hosts?

But apart from them both being more than a bit fascist (or as I like to call them, Blue Communists), they have approached Covid quite differently. Bolsonaro treats Covid as a hoax and does bugger all to stop it. He’s Brazil’s Trump. He even shares Trump’s hard-on over HCQ. He didn’t start his own warp-speed program regarding vaccines though. As a result, Brazil has been as slow to roll out vaccines as Australia. Like Australia, it blew off repeated offers from Pfizer. Now, it has suffered more than 500,000 deaths, making it 2nd only to the US for deaths.

By contrast, the Hungarians suffered a massive 3rd wave, boasting the world’s highest mortality rate at the time. Restrictions were brought in to control it and Orban instituted a massive vaccination program. Controversially, he embraced the Russian and Chinese vaccines to make it happen. For a nation of around 10 million, the death toll stands at over 30,000 but it led the EU in April for vaccination rates along with Malta. As you noted, its vaccination rate is way beyond Australia’s. Added to the natural immunity recovered Covid patients may have, they may be close to herd immunity. In fact, Hungary issues “immunity cards” to those who have been vaccinated and requires customers to produce them to enter restaurants and even soccer matches. Perhaps, the crowd at the international match you mention were required to produce such cards in order to be part of that crowd.

I don’t think Hungary’s Covid response shows that Covid is nothing to worry about or that we should just let it rip. It seems quite the opposite. Vaccinations are the key to their re-opening.

If only Scotty from Marketing had capitalised on the elimination efforts to roll out vaccines quickly. Imagine if we could accelerate uptake with something like an immunity card conferring access to events and travel. But how could we do this when a large percentage of the population hasn’t been eligible for vaccinations?




Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 21, 2021, 08:01:38 am
Mav, the message behind what im saying isn't political.

Its analytical.

Covid is a disease that isn't cutting people down the way we were first told it would. 

We'll see what happens in NSW from here but I see them a bit slower to go into meltdown and lock everyone down. 

The point to showing hungary was that despite a global pandemic people are willing to go to a game that they are allowed to in numbers. 

This isn't a worry for them on a people level.

The populace is where you see the trouble not in government strategy.  Crowds attending games in their droves even in a nation with over 800k positive cases.

Its a tell.

Whether or not you equate that to letting it rip or not is a different story but letting it rip doesn't mean everyone has to go out it. Just means that people can make the choice to. 

For starters we should be playing footy in empty stadoums as scheduled rather than seeing the afl swing around frantically trying to reschedule games.

Whether or not crowds can attend can be subject to vaccination, a negative test, online booking for tickets, temperature checks etc.  Instead we get low rates of transmission become shut all borders from midnight tomorrow night rather than implement some rules that are easy to maintain with or without outbreaks that are able to see some semblance of normality resume. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 21, 2021, 10:09:34 am
Yes, let’s open up to vaccinated people. Fully vaccinated people should have some sort of immunity/vaccine passport that allows them to bypass restrictions. But to make that fair in Australia, vaccinations have to be open to everybody who wants one (and to those who don’t but will have one to gain the benefits that go with the passport).

I’d imagine the right wingers will rise up as one against this idea, though, as they’ll say anti-vaxxers can’t be discriminated against. So we’re back to square one. We have to treat the vaccinated as if they haven’t been vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 21, 2021, 12:14:20 pm
Covid is a disease that isn't cutting people down the way we were first told it would.
Doesn't that depend on where you are and when, go somewhere the health system is over run to reconfirm that and the story might be very different.

It seems our health system isn't over-run because of the aggressive restrictions, not in spite of them!

And I'll reiterate, COVID deaths are only one measure, long COVID is going to become a much bigger issue if effective treatments are not found. If the restrictions and lockdowns buy time to develop those treatments, then that is probably a good thing.

If too many 20 somethings get heart or kidney disease, that's a lifetime of care dollar$ we will all be subsidising, it is not an insignificant risk!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 21, 2021, 12:24:49 pm
Yep, it must be a galling paradox for epidemiologists and politicians. If measures they implement are successful in containing Covid, critics will say the low impact of Covid shows those measures were unnecessary.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 21, 2021, 01:21:05 pm
You seriously think those agreeing with the anti vaxxers are right wing?  I'd suggest the complete reverse is closer to the truth.

EDIT
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 21, 2021, 01:33:13 pm
https://theconversation.com/anti-vaccination-beliefs-dont-follow-the-usual-political-polarization-81001
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on June 21, 2021, 02:11:59 pm
We have numerous treatments presently available, known about since early 2020 (in the case of Ivermectin), earlier (15 years earlier) in the case of HCQ but alas, should the authorities accept there's a viable treatment, you can't issue an EUA.....

Here's the latest, greatest on Ivermectin.

https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/Abstract/9000/Ivermectin_for_Prevention_and_Treatment_of.98040.aspx

And who knew 303 folk have died in Australia coincidentally within days/weeks of taking the jab?

(Of course, if you're expecting to die in the immediate term, the jab is always your top priority!)

https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-17-06-2021

So much for the time tested Precautionary Principle.

https://c19ivermectin.com/


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 21, 2021, 02:18:29 pm
You seriously think those agreeing with the anti vaxxers are right wing?  I'd suggest the complete reverse is closer to the truth.
The division is not along political lines, there has always been a very strong anti-vaxx movement based on economics rather than politics. Historically, it's the well-to-do inner city dwellers who are least likely to be vaccinated and more likely to have unvaccinated children for any vaccine not just COVID.

I've heard it described as a new world entitlement, they are entitled to have you vaccinated for their personal benefit!

I blame the Hippocratic Oath, or various aborted versions of it!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 21, 2021, 02:30:00 pm
For those interested a meta-analysis is a statistical analysis of multiple previous studies, there is a nice description of Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-analysis

While meta-analysis can be useful, the big problem is they are easily distorted by selection methods, what studies/data to include and what studies/data to reject. It's most useful when all studies are included, but this can even become problematic when bogus studies/data become numerically dominant. At that time a meta-analysis becomes worthless and must be supplanted by a large study.

Adding any quantity of small studies together no matter how many does not supersede the results of a single large study, because all small studies are likely to contain the same bias. As Wikipedia puts in quite nicely;
Quote
A meta-analysis of several small studies does not always predict the results of a single large study. Some have argued that a weakness of the method is that sources of bias are not controlled by the method: a good meta-analysis cannot correct for poor design or bias in the original studies. This would mean that only methodologically sound studies should be included in a meta-analysis, a practice called 'best evidence synthesis'.
This is a big reason why the hacks are always posting/quoting you results of a meta-analysis, often nested as a meta-analysis of a meta-analysis of a meta-analysis.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 21, 2021, 02:57:43 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/national/fears-astrazeneca-reputation-has-been-tarnished-beyond-repair-20210619-p582fl.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 21, 2021, 05:06:25 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/national/fears-astrazeneca-reputation-has-been-tarnished-beyond-repair-20210619-p582fl.html
The Pfizer is doing its fair share of damage too as a previously healthy 18 year old in Melbourne with extreme SVT can tell you but it probably wont make the news because the media are being told to can negative side effect stories. He might be looking at a pacemaker now given his heart rate is still rapid so thats the end of any sporting career for him..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 21, 2021, 06:02:50 pm
I think that a vaccine for a novel virus isnt correlated to previous anti vax sentiments.

Most people are apprehensive of virus and vaccine for the same reasons.

Some people are only apprehensive about the virus, some are only apprehensive of the vaccine.

All of them are valid concerns.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on June 21, 2021, 07:00:12 pm
I think that a vaccine for a novel virus isnt correlated to previous anti vax sentiments.

Most people are apprehensive of virus and vaccine for the same reasons.

Some people are only apprehensive about the virus, some are only apprehensive of the vaccine.

All of them are valid concerns.



I get the flu shot every year.
My kids got all their vaccinations.
I've never worried about vaccines....but I did have a pause and think with this one.
In the end I had it as soon as I was able.

Simply because the covid is such a concern I think there is a feeling for some that the development of vaccines has been fast tracked.
We're still not sure about each vaccines efficiency with different strands and any side effects.
The fact that we're pretty much in control of outbreaks and respond quickly means that folks feel they have the luxury of just holding off for a bit until things are a little clearer.
It's a no brainer for most that they'll be vaccinated in the end because the alternative can be deadly.
Watch folks rush to get the jab when things look like they may get out of  control.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 21, 2021, 07:20:23 pm
Yes, let’s open up to vaccinated people. Fully vaccinated people should have some sort of immunity/vaccine passport that allows them to bypass restrictions. But to make that fair in Australia, vaccinations have to be open to everybody who wants one (and to those who don’t but will have one to gain the benefits that go with the passport).

I’d imagine the right wingers will rise up as one against this idea, though, as they’ll say anti-vaxxers can’t be discriminated against. So we’re back to square one. We have to treat the vaccinated as if they haven’t been vaccinated.
With decisions there are consequences, that's life. Cant have your cake and eat it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 22, 2021, 10:25:16 am
I agree. If I were appointed dictator for a day, I’d implement a vaccine passport without any reservations. But there’s no way the Federal Government will go there. The vaccinated will remain handcuffed to the unvaccinated. The unvaccinated will remain the dictionary definition of free riders.

Interesting article in The Atlantic: Expect the Unexpected From the Delta Variant (https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/06/expect-unexpected-delta-variant/619245/).

It considers why the UK’s Alpha variant didn’t cause an expected Springtime wave in the US save for an outbreak in Michigan despite being 50% more transmissible than the original virus.

Quote
Delta has gotten so much attention because it has the most troubling collection of traits yet: It is markedly more transmissible than Alpha, can sicken a large proportion of people who have had only one dose of a vaccine (though not those who have had two), and may even cause more severe disease. All of this is enough to be a warning, especially as Delta is now responsible for 10 percent of U.S. cases and rising. But as with Alpha, which was also suspected to be more severe, how the variant ends up behaving in the real world will depend on more than its biology. It will also depend on how we—the virus’s hosts—choose to behave, how many more people we vaccinate, and, to some extent, how lucky we get.

All of these factors are likely to have played a role in the Alpha-associated springtime spike in Michigan. According to cellphone mobility data from that period, people in the state had gone back to nearly pre-pandemic levels of movement, says Emily Martin, an epidemiologist at the University of Michigan. The Alpha variant also got to Michigan relatively early, and happened to find its way into groups of young people who were not yet eligible to be vaccinated. “It was sort of bad timing,” Martin told me. If Alpha had arrived a little later, or the vaccines a little earlier, then Michigan might have looked more like the rest of the country, where immunization was able to blunt Alpha’s impact. In the race between variants and vaccines elsewhere in the U.S., vaccines won.

Two concepts about viral spread help explain why timing and chance make such a difference. First, the coronavirus spreads exponentially, which means that even a slight delay in mitigation efforts can lead to dramatically different outcomes. Second, the virus’s spread is what epidemiologists call “overdispersed,” which means that the majority of patients do not infect anyone else but a small handful might infect dozens of people. In other words, most sparks of infection do not catch fire. But occasionally a single infection might cause an early super-spreader event, which ends up seeding a major outbreak. “Looking from state to state, it can be like, ‘Well, why is this state doing well versus that state?’ Sometimes it’s just luck,” says Adam Lauring, a virologist at the University of Michigan.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 22, 2021, 10:41:01 am
Studies suggest Covid (or some condition caused by Covid) shrinks parts of the brain and this brings with it concerns that it might set up dementia further down the road. The studies aren’t yet peer-reviewed though.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 22, 2021, 10:42:51 am
Doesn't that depend on where you are and when, go somewhere the health system is over run to reconfirm that and the story might be very different.

It seems our health system isn't over-run because of the aggressive restrictions, not in spite of them!

And I'll reiterate, COVID deaths are only one measure, long COVID is going to become a much bigger issue if effective treatments are not found. If the restrictions and lockdowns buy time to develop those treatments, then that is probably a good thing.

If too many 20 somethings get heart or kidney disease, that's a lifetime of care dollar$ we will all be subsidising, it is not an insignificant risk!

Our health system has never really been under pressure to date, even with the 100's of cases per day.

The lockdowns have caused more grief through the baby boom we are currently experiencing for the health services than covid ever caused.

That could change, but whilst we remain on the path to elimination it wont.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 22, 2021, 10:57:54 am
What would your preferred solution be, Thryleon?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 22, 2021, 11:35:44 am
What would your preferred solution be, Thryleon?

To what?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 22, 2021, 11:37:02 am
Gladys says hello! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 22, 2021, 12:07:19 pm
To what?
If you were placed in charge, how would you deal with Covid without resorting to restrictions? Would you just trust that there’d be no spike in infections? Perhaps you wouldn’t care whether one occurred because it’s no big deal? But what would you do?

It’s easy to fixate on the costs of a course of action if you don’t have to worry about proposing alternatives. For instance, funding the military in Australia is a massive cost. There isn’t anyone trying to invade us now and absent the arrival of white colonists we’ve never been invaded before. So we could save a lot of money by disbanding the military.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 22, 2021, 12:30:21 pm
As LP noted, NSW is now facing a surge: 10 new cases. Perhaps Victoria overreacts to spikes but after a massive death toll when one got away from it, this is understandable. NSW has been lucky so far, but as the Atlantic article notes that may just have been due to the dumb luck of having no superspreaders in the past. If they’ve crapped out this time, Gladys’ reluctance to impose anything more than mask mandates might bite her in the arse.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on June 22, 2021, 12:33:56 pm
As LP noted, NSW is now facing a surge: 10 new cases. Perhaps Victoria overreacts to spikes but after a massive death toll when one got away from it, this is understandable. NSW has been lucky so far, but as the Atlantic article notes that may just have been due to the dumb luck of having no superspreaders in the past. If they’ve crapped out this time, Gladys’ reluctance to impose anything more than mask mandates might bite her in the arse.

...and let's see if the anti-Vic sentiment from the HUN (Rita P in particular) is taken up re NSW and their Premier!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 22, 2021, 12:46:25 pm
For instance, funding the military in Australia is a massive cost. There isn’t anyone trying to invade us now and absent the arrival of white colonists we’ve never been invaded before. So we could save a lot of money by disbanding the military.

Defence spending is 2.1% of GDP ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 22, 2021, 12:52:44 pm
As LP noted, NSW is now facing a surge: 10 new cases. Perhaps Victoria overreacts to spikes but after a massive death toll when one got away from it, this is understandable. NSW has been lucky so far, but as the Atlantic article notes that may just have been due to the dumb luck of having no superspreaders in the past. If they’ve crapped out this time, Gladys’ reluctance to impose anything more than mask mandates might bite her in the arse.
 It'll be different now, it's in a Liberal state and it is in Scotty's backyard, he'll call in the army!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 22, 2021, 01:11:09 pm
Defence spending is 2.1% of GDP ...
So, it’s just US$34 billion per year. Imagine what we could do with that. Free uni courses, much better healthcare, schooling, infrastructure etc.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 22, 2021, 01:19:00 pm
Is Gladys is playing Federal sponsored roulette with people's physical wellbeing and welfare purely for political gain, or is it a balanced approach?

If the crape hits the fan it'll be labelled irresponsible roulette, if it levels out they call her a genius, despite the outcome being mostly left to chance!

They can't pull the trigger, so they are going to creep up to the cliff edge and hope they have time to change their mind before they fall!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 22, 2021, 01:46:47 pm
So, it’s just US$34 billion per year. Imagine what we could do with that. Free uni courses, much better healthcare, schooling, infrastructure etc.

And destroy alliances, international commitments in a threatened world?  This isn't the utopian land of Star Trek.  Or surrender monkeys.    
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 22, 2021, 01:50:28 pm
Or surrender monkeys.
France stood up for us against China at the G7, ............ it's not like they buy uranium off us, ................. sacre bleu! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 22, 2021, 01:56:00 pm
If you were placed in charge, how would you deal with Covid without resorting to restrictions? Would you just trust that there’d be no spike in infections? Perhaps you wouldn’t care whether one occurred because it’s no big deal? But what would you do?

It’s easy to fixate on the costs of a course of action if you don’t have to worry about proposing alternatives. For instance, funding the military in Australia is a massive cost. There isn’t anyone trying to invade us now and absent the arrival of white colonists we’ve never been invaded before. So we could save a lot of money by disbanding the military.

I'd stage the imposition of restrictions so that things continue relatively as normal until otherwise required, and am watching NSW with intrigue.  My assumption is that they will get on top of this relatively quickly.  The data shows 32 positive cases over 7 days for over 160 000 tests.  The latest 10 are all close contacts and household members of those already positive.  Which means, that their response is so far commensurate with the risk.


Seperate to that, I would be imposing practical safe guards to prevent outbreaks from growing before they begin  in a future state to try and keep normality normal for as long as possible.  Regular testing of someone coming out of hotel quarantine is a requirement for one month post quarantine.

I have witnessed lines of people waiting to get tested where they are all in each others faces, and there is no booking system for a test.  Implement one, so that way you know who is coming where and when, rather than seeing a bunch of people standing around waiting to get tested.  Yes, walk ins are ok, but Ive seen more scope for spread waiting to be tested than in a lot of places, and that was including during our big outbreaks last year.

I wouldn't be cancelling all the elective surgeries at the first sign of outbreak, because we should have mandatory testing for those going in for elective surgery.  No negative test, no surgery and that continues irrespective of outbreak landscape to ensure that surgery and health care workers are protected.  Cancelling all non essential surgeries at the first sign of outbreak, is problematic for a whole host of reasons, and I see no reason why they were cancelled recently.

The rules about new born dads only having 1 hour a day with mum and new born during out breaks is stupid and should be removed irrespective of outbreak.  Let them have a test in the lead up to birth, and then you can be somewhat sure about their covid free state (and if unwell dont come at all, your new born will thank you later).  I know of one infant in NICU who's parents were both allowed to visit seperately for less than 1 hour at a time....  Useless.  They are more likely to walk out, catch covid, and then walk back in with it, than they are to go in and stay in for the day.

Schools continue until outbreaks implicate those students, and then into isolation unless wider restrictions result in more online learning.

Footy plays on with or without fans, as scheduled.  The players are subjected to regular covid tests, and for the most part, should be playing on irrespective of covid state.  The fact that there is this big rush to "get out" wreaks of stupidity as once we declare a lockdown, the point is to catch positive people before they run off, so the big rush to leave results in a potentially quick and large spread, instead of encouraging good behaviours.  Result more spread, not less.

QR codes....  What is the point in QR coding people at a service station to fill up their car?  They spend more time qr coding than they do with the attendant and that just makes people hang around longer.  Practicality should trump the necessity to record things for the sake of it.

I am not advocating free movement of everyone, but there are better ways to do this than simply lock everyone up in a panic.  I am not even privy to the information that they all have to come up with some of this stuff because I am aware that the government knows more than it tells its people.  Gladys not locking down is a tell in itself that this one will fizzle out.

What I do know, is that the mandatory testing of front liners is wanting.  I know at the airport and in the health care networks the tests are not happening to the staff that are required.  The mask wearing is something that lacks common sense.  If you walk into a hospital as a staff member, that just put a mask on in the car, they require you change it in the hospital.

Quantitive and Qualitative risk analysis is missing from a lot of our measures.  I can go to a restaurant with 100 strangers where we all eat maskless, but I cannot go to a wedding with 100 people whom I know, and whom are more likely to avoid going if unwell because they dont want to kill aunty ruby (or maybe they do, but thats beside the point).

I went to a christening of twins in Feb.  Over 100 people, not one chance of catching covid even though we were in restrictions a week later.

We make vaccines available.  AZ, Pfizer, whatever.  We tell everyone exactly what the hold up is, why its taking so long, and then at some point when everyone has had access to a vaccine, and declined to take it we let it rip until things get out of hand and we can revert back to controlling its spread again. 

 We are going to have periods where there is overlap between vaccine where people are at risk, but I can tell you now, that the administration of vaccines in the hospital is on a first come first serve basis.  You  walk in as a health care worker and you get one, irrespective of whether you are a cleaner or a surgeon because they didnt both prioritising.  The fact they are discouraging  too many from one department to go at one time, and to go just before a break between shifts is an indicator, that they know about side effects and the illness and sick leave caused by it.  If people are refusing vaccines, well, statistics are statistics.  You would feel pretty bloody stupid getting a disease you could have protected yourself against if it has a bad outcome attached, and thats a learning opportunity for the anti vax movement that will help us all in the long run so perhaps natural selection will work for the greater good there.

You know, I look abroad and we have been given a lot of hyperbole about this disease, and yet we dont have a 3rd world health care system, we dont even have a risk averse approach to covid (if IT issues occur, the IT guys go into the covid ward which is a massive tell about the covid risk because why would  you send someone in if it was truly dangerous who doesn't need to go in, particularly for a mundane issue like one workstation offline or to install a fax machine when papers can be passed around quite easily or revert to electronic documentation, but I digress).

I dont speak from a position of not seeing some of the hypocrisy up close and personal, which means either the hospital workers are cognisent of the risk, and then take more risks than necessary anyway (doubtful) or the risk isnt as great as we are being told about, and the news out there is to encourage people to limit their stupidity outside of covid infection, in case they become the super spreader you guys describe.

Since covid started, I lead a rather simple existence.  Catch ups with different families are a fortnight apart, just in case you only hit my side or my mrs side.  We generally do grocery shopping, and stay at home activities where possible unless we need something else.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 22, 2021, 02:37:45 pm
Thryleon, it seems to me that you aren’t proposing a response which is much different from the status quo. You are really proposing a number of tweaks, many of which I wouldn’t oppose.

I agree that the 14 day quarantine is a bit arbitrary and is a bit of a compromise between public safety and individual freedom. Frequent post-release testing would be sensible, especially as there’s a risk of being infected in hotel quarantine while exiting. But keeping track of those who have just been released would be a challenge as they’d no doubt feel like their lives have been upended enough at that stage. Again, testing queues are a compromise required to ensure a sufficient volume of tests: bookings and staggered entry would be ideal, of course. Football games are moved to avoid crowd less games: bad for TV coverage and a loss at the gate. And if they’re played in a Covid hotspot, opposing teams may be unable or unwilling to come and incur quarantine restrictions. But I wouldn’t be against your proposals.

It really does come down to whether a possible outbreak should trigger tight restrictions until the extent of infections is known and addressed. NSW will indeed be interesting in this regard.

But for me vaccinations are the key. I don’t have a problem with opening up when we’re approaching herd immunity and everyone has had the opportunity to be fully vaccinated (i.e. both doses). But we’re nowhere near that. For instance, I’ve only had the 1 dose and that gives me only a 33% chance of resisting infection but the 2nd dose in August will increase that to 60-90%.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 22, 2021, 02:47:28 pm
And destroy alliances, international commitments in a threatened world?  This isn't the utopian land of Star Trek.  Or surrender monkeys.    
I guess you could argue that the lack of immediate threats is due to the military expenditure and those who assume we could have had the same level of protection if the military didn’t exist are wrong. Much like I would argue that those who say the low level of Covid infection would have been the same in the absence of restrictions are naive.

And I guess you would argue that the absence of visible military threats doesn’t mean they aren’t developing. Much as I’d argue that the absence of a new Covid wave doesn’t mean one is not on the horizon.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 22, 2021, 03:02:33 pm
Schools continue until outbreaks implicate those students, and then into isolation unless wider restrictions result in more online learning.
The problem here seems to be that when a virus variant is fast moving, due to the lag in diagnosis, by the time you get a positive case detection it's too late and you're in another snap lockdown anyway.

I sympathise with teachers and other school staff, they are in someway being treated by the general public as canaries.

Are you going to test all the kids pre-emptively? If so what happens to the poor kid who is first off the block, dragged out of school to be the eternal target of ridicule!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 22, 2021, 04:36:57 pm
NSW have a better contact tracing dept staffed correctly with more trained healthcare staff, I would expect NSW to have better control and shorter restriction periods...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 22, 2021, 05:19:46 pm
Don’t worry, that means we’ll have a priority draft pick in the next contact tracing national draft.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 22, 2021, 08:23:00 pm
Thryleon, it seems to me that you aren’t proposing a response which is much different from the status quo. You are really proposing a number of tweaks, many of which I wouldn’t oppose.

I agree that the 14 day quarantine is a bit arbitrary and is a bit of a compromise between public safety and individual freedom. Frequent post-release testing would be sensible, especially as there’s a risk of being infected in hotel quarantine while exiting. But keeping track of those who have just been released would be a challenge as they’d no doubt feel like their lives have been upended enough at that stage. Again, testing queues are a compromise required to ensure a sufficient volume of tests: bookings and staggered entry would be ideal, of course. Football games are moved to avoid crowd less games: bad for TV coverage and a loss at the gate. And if they’re played in a Covid hotspot, opposing teams may be unable or unwilling to come and incur quarantine restrictions. But I wouldn’t be against your proposals.

It really does come down to whether a possible outbreak should trigger tight restrictions until the extent of infections is known and addressed. NSW will indeed be interesting in this regard.

But for me vaccinations are the key. I don’t have a problem with opening up when we’re approaching herd immunity and everyone has had the opportunity to be fully vaccinated (i.e. both doses). But we’re nowhere near that. For instance, I’ve only had the 1 dose and that gives me only a 33% chance of resisting infection but the 2nd dose in August will increase that to 60-90%.

The main point of difference is when.

The main point of difference is that I think we've gone too hard too early. 

That and I think aspiring to zero is unrealistic. 



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 22, 2021, 10:46:22 pm
Don’t worry, that means we’ll have a priority draft pick in the next contact tracing national draft.
Dan would be like our recruiters and stuff that up as well...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 23, 2021, 02:51:17 pm
Seems the new cases tally is consistently in double figures in NSW. Victorians know all about that ...

They regard a birthday party as a superspreader event, so Sydney’s luck has run out. But it could have been worse: the last outbreak in Melbourne was sparked by some infected people travelling all over the place but in Sydney the infected people have stayed in their local area.

The restrictions are now breeding like rabbits:
Non-essential travel from the affected areas to regional areas is banned.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on June 23, 2021, 06:20:07 pm
Mother in law has had her second jab and has been experiencing cramps in her legs. The doctor said it's a side effect and to keep an eye on it.

Has got worse and is off work, having scans tomorrow.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 23, 2021, 06:37:20 pm
Has got worse and is off work, having scans tomorrow.
Hope all goes well for her MBB.....the vaccines are as a scary as CoVid, there is no way of predicting the side effects....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 23, 2021, 07:27:45 pm
@madbluboy .... best wishes she gets well :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on June 23, 2021, 08:45:18 pm
Has got worse and is off work, having scans tomorrow.

I hope they get on top of this quickly, MBB. Wishing her a speedy recovery. Best wishes, mate...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 23, 2021, 09:27:24 pm
Not good news. Hope all goes well.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 23, 2021, 10:07:35 pm
Has got worse and is off work, having scans tomorrow.
All the best to MIL MBB.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on June 23, 2021, 10:38:23 pm
Interesting article.

https://mediainequality.com/2021/06/20/fleeting-contact-one-phrase-two-reactions/?fbclid=IwAR0dSS_qiKh6SskY9OD4fUZqdz-deatH1749FyqE8amUik582unKzpbTQb0

(hope MIL gets better quickly, MBB)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 23, 2021, 11:30:46 pm
The good Dr Fielding left out the 820 deaths in Victoria and also didn't disclose she is a long time labor member but we won't hold that against her in terms of political bias..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on June 24, 2021, 12:49:28 am
It was obvious of her bais when reading it - doesn't mean there aren't a couple of valid points.   It sometimes helps you understand things better,  can strengthen your stance or just make you shake your head! 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 24, 2021, 07:53:21 am
It was obvious of her bais when reading it - doesn't mean there aren't a couple of valid points.  It sometimes helps you understand things better,  can strengthen your stance or just make you shake your head!
Yes, a political and self-promoting article but it does have some good points.

Fundamentally, the modern media is just a paid arm of social media, they are mostly bloggers getting syndicated by someone like Murdoch because it's the lowest cost way to run a newspaper or magazine, and they count their own numbers reporting the issue as strong supporting evidence.

There are very few professional journalists left, this is why once they pick a direction they will all fall into line like a shoal of fish, even if they are swimming head first into a shark!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 24, 2021, 09:04:36 am
It was obvious of her bais when reading it - doesn't mean there aren't a couple of valid points.   It sometimes helps you understand things better,  can strengthen your stance or just make you shake your head! 
Im more in the shake my head camp with the good Dr Fielding but I take your point.
I think I remember seeing her on Q&A on the ABC which of course has reps from both major parties usually as well neutrals and the odd Greta Thunberg for a bit of spice and the good Dr was flushed out for her pro labor views. Which is fine but she should disclose she is a long term paid up member when she comments on political issues...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 24, 2021, 10:03:43 am
It's a weird description but I get it, Gladys has basically parachuting NSW off the cliff, and either way the outcome is the same you'll end up at the bottom of a one way journey with no return!

There will be a bit of nervousness now that politicians are turning up positive, they are serial hand shakers, highly mobile and out doing the meet and greet despite sensible restrictions. I wonder how many Bushies and CWA members the agriculture minister had a cuppa with over the last couple of weeks. They've all come together in one location, then spread like the wind Bullseye, trailed by a team of PAs and advisors!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 24, 2021, 03:00:07 pm
First is was SA, now it's NSW, shipping COVID cases to Victoria!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 24, 2021, 09:06:30 pm
Has got worse and is off work, having scans tomorrow.
Don't know if its been mentioned yet, but how old MBB?

*fingers crossed*
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on June 24, 2021, 09:24:50 pm
Best wishes to the MIL MBB.
It looks like the doc was onto it pretty quickly.
One of the issues for some may be deciding when to go and get things checked.
When does a minor side effect turn into a major one?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on June 24, 2021, 10:34:09 pm
Had my 2nd AZ today - fingers crossed - OK so far.

Hope all goes well MBB.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 25, 2021, 10:05:30 am
Good on ya, Cookie. You go from around 33% to about 90% protection and overseas experience suggests it is effective against the Delta variant. And breakthrough infections are much less serious.

Gladys reflects on her unwillingness to go hard on suppressing the Delta superspreader event:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WkqgDoo_eZE&feature=youtu.be&noapp=1 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WkqgDoo_eZE&feature=youtu.be&noapp=1)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 25, 2021, 10:17:23 am
Gladys reflects on her unwillingness to go hard on suppressing the Delta superspreader event:
Scotty from Marketing has her back, of course he has because he has been asleep at the wheel leaving our fate to the Grace of God!

I presume they'll end up blaming Dan!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 25, 2021, 10:32:07 am
I can’t believe there hasn’t been outrage over the revelation the limo driver was unvaccinated (and was apparently not a great fan of PPE). The explanation for allowing this was that excluding unvaccinated drivers would leave fewer drivers available than they wanted. Bugger me ... isn’t that just a structural limitation that should have limited the number of flights coming in? If I go to the Emergency Department for treatment, I don’t want to hear that receptionists and cleaning crew are seeing patients in order to cope with the flow of cases.

Surely if they’d offered to double or triple payments to drivers but only vaccinated drivers could move flight crews, the unvaccinated drivers would have fallen over themselves in the rush to be vaccinated. And what about the other cliché solution to all things Covid-related: the ADF? There are plenty of drivers in their transport sections and they’re presumably all vaccinated. And if getting police to sit on a chair to keep an eye on a floor in a quarantine hotel is a good use of their time, then surely police driving limos is worthwhile too ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 25, 2021, 10:46:20 am
I can’t believe there hasn’t been outrage over the revelation the limo driver was unvaccinated (and was apparently not a great fan of PPE). The explanation for allowing this was that excluding unvaccinated drivers would leave fewer drivers available than they wanted. Bugger me ... isn’t that just a structural limitation that should have limited the number of flights coming in? If I go to the Emergency Department for treatment, I don’t want to hear that receptionists and cleaning crew are seeing patients in order to cope with the flow of cases.
They are not forcing anybody  to be vaccinated, there are staff, nurses and doctors in hospital emergencies departments that have chosen not to be vaccinated.

You do not even have to be vaccinated to work at a COVID testing centre.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 25, 2021, 10:56:23 am
That’s just deplorable. And there’s a massive difference between forcing someone to have a vaccine and limiting various types of work to those who are vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 25, 2021, 11:43:47 am
I can’t believe there hasn’t been outrage over the revelation the limo driver was unvaccinated (and was apparently not a great fan of PPE). The explanation for allowing this was that excluding unvaccinated drivers would leave fewer drivers available than they wanted. Bugger me ... isn’t that just a structural limitation that should have limited the number of flights coming in?

Taxis picking up aircrews are always vans, never "cars".  No other means of efficient transport from airports to / from hotels exist.  All comes back to every driver being vaccinated, be it Tullamarine or any other origin airline port, domestic or international.

Policing that?  Impossible.  For now.    
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 25, 2021, 11:59:15 am
Four Sydney LGAs placed in lockdown as NSW records 22 new COVID-19 cases (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-25/bondi-covid-19-cluster-grows-after-nsw-records-22-infections/100243242), abc.net.au

Gladys rolled the dice and scored snakes eyes. Now the question will be how much more damage has been created by delaying this.

Love the way the CMO said no lockdowns were needed because their contact tracers were getting to all close contacts anyway. But the Victorian who attended a superspreader event wasn’t contacted by the NSW contact tracers. Either that means they weren’t worried about those outside NSW or they weren’t getting to everybody. And the former is unlikely as they’d still want to know who the Victorian might have exposed before leaving NSW.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 25, 2021, 12:03:07 pm
Four Sydney LGAs placed in lockdown as NSW records 22 new COVID-19 cases (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-25/bondi-covid-19-cluster-grows-after-nsw-records-22-infections/100243242), abc.net.au

Gladys rolled the dice and scored snakes eyes. Now the question will be how much more damage has been created by delaying this.

Love the way the CMO said no lockdowns were needed because their contact tracers were getting to all close contacts anyway. But the Victorian who attended a superspreader event wasn’t contacted by the NSW contact tracers. Either that means they weren’t worried about those outside NSW or they weren’t getting to everybody. And the former is unlikely as they’d still want to know who the Victorian might have exposed before leaving NSW.
It's smoke and mirrors, but I do not understand why, what is the point of the delay because there is no winning in this as the situation is already a negative, you are only trying to avoid an even bigger loss!

btw., The governments aren't building hugely expensive quarantine facilities just to use for a few months, that action exposes what the officials really think about the duration of this Sars-CoV-2 event, ................. or the next one! Maybe Gladys is trying to drum up some business to justify the cost! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on June 25, 2021, 01:06:49 pm
With the outbreak in Sydney and subsequent lockdowns of certain LGAs (which could still bite Gladys on the clacker through being insufficient) I wonder what the HUN opinion (bullshizen merchants) writers such as Rita P will have to say seeing as how she shizen-canned Vic and licked the boots of Gladys?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on June 25, 2021, 01:15:20 pm
Don't know if its been mentioned yet, but how old MBB?

*fingers crossed*

59.

They couldn't see any evidence of clotting, just have to monitor it. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on June 25, 2021, 01:17:45 pm
NSW has done all the heavy lifting, they should have more cases and deaths than the rest of the country put together.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 25, 2021, 01:59:51 pm
They are not forcing anybody  to be vaccinated, there are staff, nurses and doctors in hospital emergencies departments that have chosen not to be vaccinated.

You do not even have to be vaccinated to work at a COVID testing centre.
The reality is as well that being vaccinated doesnt prevent you getting sick and spreading the virus..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on June 25, 2021, 02:02:34 pm
And this shows exactly how deadly the Indian variant was in the UK.

This variant started appearing in the UK at the start of April.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtOu7jx3snQ&t=43s
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on June 25, 2021, 02:04:32 pm
The reality is as well that being vaccinated doesnt prevent you getting sick and spreading the virus..

Indeed, the recent upswing in case numbers in UK (amongst highly vaccinated population in summer mind you too) suggests the vaccines themselves are a vector in the increase.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 25, 2021, 02:21:15 pm
Not to mention they cause spoons to stick to your head.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 25, 2021, 02:44:43 pm
And this shows exactly how deadly the Indian variant was in the UK.

This variant started appearing in the UK at the start of April.
I suspect that is confusing the efficacy of up to date treatments and effects of vaccination with how contagious a variant can be if left unchecked, and it also ignores the possible long term effects of COVID-19 sufferers as a burden on society. Which is really becoming the key issue given you can't kill the old and frail twice, but you can leave the survivors maimed for decades!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 25, 2021, 02:49:15 pm
The reality is as well that being vaccinated doesnt prevent you getting sick and spreading the virus..
It might not prevent illness but it does diminish the serious effects of illness, which could well be why places like the UK and USA aren't seeing a spike in deaths from the Delta variant, eventually the numbers will expose the truth. 

The early reports from large scale trials also suggest being vaccinated reduces transmission even if it doesn't totally prevent it, but the final numbers are not due out until Sept this year.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 25, 2021, 03:00:50 pm
It might not prevent illness but it does diminish the serious effects of illness, which could well be why places like the UK and USA aren't seeing a spike in deaths from the Delta variant, eventually the numbers will expose the truth.

The early reports from large scale trials also suggest being vaccinated reduces transmission even if it doesn't totally prevent it, but the final numbers are not due out until Sept this year.
Agree it prevents deaths but the un-vaccinated driver would still be a threat even if he had been vaccinated.
I do understand that all viruses mutate and the idea of decreasing virus circulation by vaccination will decrease mutations which is also a primary reason to have effective vaccines apart from protecting the individual.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 25, 2021, 03:25:29 pm
Driving at or under the speed limit doesn’t prevent crashes, so we should get rid of speed limits.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 25, 2021, 05:07:06 pm
59.

They couldn't see any evidence of clotting, just have to monitor it. 

Good news!  I hope she continues to improve.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 25, 2021, 05:12:35 pm
Four Sydney LGAs placed in lockdown as NSW records 22 new COVID-19 cases (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-25/bondi-covid-19-cluster-grows-after-nsw-records-22-infections/100243242), abc.net.au

Gladys rolled the dice and scored snakes eyes. Now the question will be how much more damage has been created by delaying this.

Love the way the CMO said no lockdowns were needed because their contact tracers were getting to all close contacts anyway. But the Victorian who attended a superspreader event wasn’t contacted by the NSW contact tracers. Either that means they weren’t worried about those outside NSW or they weren’t getting to everybody. And the former is unlikely as they’d still want to know who the Victorian might have exposed before leaving NSW.

It was excruciating listening to Gladys trying to avoid saying "lockdown"  ::)  It must be hard trying to toe Scotty's line when it looks like the sh1t is about to hit the fan.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 25, 2021, 05:12:52 pm
Driving at or under the speed limit doesn’t prevent crashes, so we should get rid of speed limits.
Research shows that even a small decrease in speed significantly reduces the likelihood of a crash. If a crash does occur, slower speeds limit the severity of injuries. According to the Monash University Accident Research Centre, reducing speed by 11% would reduce road deaths by 40%.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 25, 2021, 05:15:53 pm
A bit like vaccines reduce infections, severity of illness and transmission even if not by 100%.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 25, 2021, 06:22:51 pm
Typical Federal Govt manoeuvring: finally, it has agreed to build a quarantine facility in Mickleham (close to Tulla airport) after insisting it be built in Avalon. Leaving aside the considerable time it will take for it to be built, we’ll finally be rid of the hotel quarantine system, right? Not so fast ... the deal is conditioned on the hotel quarantine system continuing at current levels. It will be in addition to it, not a replacement >:D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 25, 2021, 06:40:43 pm
Research shows that even a small decrease in speed significantly reduces the likelihood of a crash. If a crash does occur, slower speeds limit the severity of injuries. According to the Monash University Accident Research Centre, reducing speed by 11% would reduce road deaths by 40%.

Very very questionable IMO and in any event, would that apply to all current zones?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 26, 2021, 11:28:41 am
29  new cases in NSW ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 26, 2021, 12:11:33 pm
Insidious threat, but we knew that long ago.  We're all gonna have to live with this and the massive hit on the economy.  Wuhan wet markets, my arse.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on June 26, 2021, 12:19:15 pm
29  new cases in NSW ...

Gladys is going to have to chow down on humble pie very soon... bet she's regretting her criticisms of Vic. She should be thinking of her population, not political one-ups-manship. Wonder what Rita P from the HUN will write... after pumping up Gladys' tyres over Vic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on June 26, 2021, 12:21:27 pm
Insidious threat, but we knew that long ago.  We're all gonna have to live with this and the massive hit on the economy.  Wuhan wet markets, my arse.

Spot on, CC old cock. And I think the whole world knows that bloody thing escaped from a lab. In a few years China will be slapped with the biggest class action you've ever seen. Won't pay it, but the loss of face (behind closed doors) will be massive... they'll deny it forever, now that they've destroyed the lab and any person who could blab.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 26, 2021, 12:38:28 pm
https://theconversation.com/covid-19-why-lab-leak-theory-is-back-despite-little-new-evidence-162215
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on June 26, 2021, 01:00:34 pm
Gladys is going to have to chow down on humble pie very soon... bet she's regretting her criticisms of Vic. She should be thinking of her population, not political one-ups-manship. Wonder what Rita P from the HUN will write... after pumping up Gladys' tyres over Vic.

How about you wait till they have 800 deaths before getting excited.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 26, 2021, 01:51:52 pm
How about you wait till they have 800 deaths before getting excited.


Hopefully it won't come to that MBB. 

The NSW Government is getting stuck into the Commonwealth about the vaccine rollout, and so they should.

Insidious threat, but we knew that long ago.  We're all gonna have to live with this and the massive hit on the economy.  Wuhan wet markets, my arse.

The Commonwealth has really dragged the chain with vaccination and quarantine, the only two realistic measures with the potential to limit COVID's impact.

On a slightly different topic, I am reading Alice Roberts "Ancestors" and I was interested to read that the scientists extracting DNA from ancient human skeletal remains also extract ancient disease DNA and are able to track the evolution of those diseases.  For example, the plague was around much earlier than previously known and underwent mutations that changed its method of transmission and mortality.

Now there's a study published in "Current Biology" that found a coronavirus epidemic broke out in East Asia around 25,000 years ago and lasted 20,000 years   :o
https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0960-9822%2821%2900794-6

I should add that there's another study indicating that a major COVID-19 genetic risk factor is inherited from Neanderthals!

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2818-3
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 26, 2021, 02:17:31 pm
Insidious threat, but we knew that long ago.  We're all gonna have to live with this and the massive hit on the economy.  Wuhan wet markets, my arse.
Chinese lied about Live Bat's being held at that lab and we assisted with Research at Geelong where there were also live bat's. The Who investigation was a sham and that creepy Batwoman head of that Wuhan lab knows exactly what went on but is toeing the Party line.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on June 26, 2021, 02:37:19 pm
How about you wait till they have 800 deaths before getting excited.


I find absolutely nothing to get excited about regarding human suffering and death or Gladys' breathtaking shallowness/politicking.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 26, 2021, 03:05:48 pm
When the dust settles and the history of covid is written, it may indeed be the case that a lab leak was the real cause, but until such a time, I'd be keeping an open mind.

Nudge nudge type cynicism and bias are no substitute for evidence and genuine analytical ability IMO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 26, 2021, 04:00:54 pm
When the dust settles and the history of covid is written, it may indeed be the case that a lab leak was the real cause, but until such a time, I'd be keeping an open mind.

Nudge nudge type cynicism and bias are no substitute for evidence and genuine analytical ability IMO.

Live bats in a wet market?  Very likely.

Bats in a lab causing COVID? Science fiction perhaps 🤔

By the way, I have eaten a bat.  In hindsight it wasn’t the best choice on the menu and it was terribly over cooked.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 26, 2021, 04:01:58 pm
You seriously expect a persecuting lying cheating communist regime to offer any evidence of their guilt?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 26, 2021, 04:29:18 pm
You seriously expect a persecuting lying cheating communist regime to offer any evidence of their guilt?

Only if it’s in their interest to do so.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 26, 2021, 04:43:52 pm
Quote from: Health Minister Brad Hazzard
"I just want to emphasize that the concerns we have at the moment are extraordinary, The Delta variant of this virus is certainly moving around our community far faster than anyone could have imagined and it's up to us to fight back."
Really? Haven’t critics spent the last week or so saying this is why NSW needed to impose a lockdown as soon as the Delta variant started to spread?

When I read that, it took me back to an episode of Frontline in which the EP was going ballistic at a journo who’d been sent to film a segment at the butterfly enclosure where some super rare moths had been added to the collection but he’d managed to kill them all when he used heavy duty lights to get better shots. He started to defend himself by saying, “How was I supposed to know moths would be attracted to ...” but gave up when he realised how stupid he’d been.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 26, 2021, 04:52:22 pm
When the evils of lockdowns ceases to be a viable avenue of attack, I guess the Wuhan lab theory will have to do.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 26, 2021, 04:59:17 pm
Live bats in a wet market?  Very likely.

Bats in a lab causing COVID? Science fiction perhaps 🤔

By the way, I have eaten a bat.  In hindsight it wasn’t the best choice on the menu and it was terribly over cooked.
The Chinese lied about having live Bats...until old video came out, thats the issue and the Aus Govt were not exactly forthcoming about the research assistance they supplied either.
Huang Yanling, who worked at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, was one of scores of doctors, scientists, activists and journalists who disappeared during the Chinese Communist Party's suspected cover-up. She was known as patient zero..and meant to be the first CoVid victim and has not been found since.
As Cap suggested I wouldnt trust a regime that squash people with tanks or revisit Nazi death camps or as the Chinese call them re-education camps. I prefer my bats in caves or pollinating crops rather than on my plate....                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 26, 2021, 05:36:15 pm
I'd be 100% in favour of a proper investigation into the origin of the virus, but a Google search for "Huang Yanling Wuhan" doesn't inspire much confidence. The majority of the first 30 hits are from Murdoch papers or others like the Daily Mail. There isn't one I could find in the first 30 that appears reputable IMO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 27, 2021, 01:01:58 am
I'd be 100% in favour of a proper investigation into the origin of the virus, but a Google search for "Huang Yanling Wuhan" doesn't inspire much confidence. The majority of the first 30 hits are from Murdoch papers or others like the Daily Mail. There isn't one I could find in the first 30 that appears reputable IMO.

I'm not sure whether the Murdoch media is more credible than the propaganda produced by the Chinese Communist Party, but the same must be said for tweets about "patient zero".

Huang Yanling was a post graduate student at the Wuhan Institute of Virology but she hasn't published anything since 2015.  I suspect that the Chinese Communist Party doesn't have the ability to manipulate the very broad range of academic publications and the absence of publications by Huang Yanling is real rather than a COVID conspiracy theory.

It seems that "patient zero" is more likely to a be someone who contracted COVID-19 a couple of months before the Wuhan outbreak.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 27, 2021, 09:01:07 am
Food for thought most of today's espionage end up being false flag attacks.

The Spanish flu was only named the Spanish flu because Spain was the first country to report on it.

I know people like to point the finger at Wuhan but odds are if this is man made and everyone is pointing the finger at China we've all been hoodwinked.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 27, 2021, 10:03:59 am
Food for thought most of today's espionage end up being false flag attacks.

The Spanish flu was only named the Spanish flu because Spain was the first country to report on it.

Many believe it was in Kansas ... but safe to say that with next to no commercial passenger air travel, many many millions more would have died. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 27, 2021, 10:23:18 am
Many believe it was in Kansas ... but safe to say that with next to no commercial passenger air travel, many many millions more would have died. 

Apparently reporting of “Spanish” flu was suppressed by the warring nations.  As Spain wasn’t involved in the war, its media was free to report anything.

While there was no air travel, tens of thousands of military personnel were transported to and from the war.  Returning servicemen brought the virus to Australia.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 27, 2021, 10:29:02 am
Apparently reporting of “Spanish” flu was suppressed by the warring nations.  As Spain wasn’t involved in the war, its media was free to report anything.

While there was no air travel, tens of thousands of military personnel were transported to and from the war.  Returning servicemen brought the virus to Australia.
Yes, one current hypothesis is that Spanish Flu actually started in the USA or at least accelerated there, it may have come out of Sth America or Africa, more importantly there is also some strong evidence that if the USA had been forthright in reporting the Spanish Flu rather than hiding it for political/military reasons millions might have been saved. Which seems ironic given the current argy bargy about China.

China's political position is interesting, even though it has technology and manufacturing capacity it has almost no resources that it needs to take advantage of it's other strengths, some analysts claim the only way forward for China on this trajectory is war and I'm sure nobody wins that! They also have huge domestic problems, a rapidly aging population and massive domestic debt that will almost certainly default if not on technical grounds then cultural grounds.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 27, 2021, 10:33:25 am
Greg Hunt being forced to order a review into the CSIRO and their involvement in the Wuhan Bat research along with some Aus Uni's.The CSIRO have been caught telling porkies about live bat's being used and Matt Canavan won't let it go in the Senate.
The idea that Aus taxpayer money has been used to assist these Chinese researchers in return for what I don't know and has been covered up is disgraceful.
Uni's here will sell their soul for the Chinese money so that doesn't surprise me they are involved.
Let's hope its not another sham like the Who investigation was in Wuhan.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 27, 2021, 10:47:47 am
Greg Hunt being forced to order a review into the CSIRO and their involvement in the Wuhan Bat research along with some Aus Uni's.The CSIRO have been caught telling porkies about live bat's being used and Matt Canavan won't let it go in the Senate.
The idea that Aus taxpayer money has been used to assist these Chinese researchers in return for what I don't know and has been covered up is disgraceful.
Uni's here will sell their soul for the Chinese money so that doesn't surprise me they are involved.
Let's hope its not another sham like the Who investigation was in Wuhan.
We don't need to assist China, nor does CSIRO, we are beholding to them and they place(unwilling) operatives inside Australian Institutions dressed up as students and colleagues, they have had the keys to the cellar for decades. I've been involved in at least two major projects that saw all the IP stolen and funnelled to China, the only defence we have against it is international patents, but China doesn't really care as it's theft is used in it's domestic market and to supply a handful of sympathetic countries like Taiwan, Nth Korea, Malaysia and even hypocritically the Philippines. Big data is changing this game, because it's now become ridiculously easy to find plagiarism and IP theft, the concept of the digital canary trap.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on June 27, 2021, 08:34:59 pm
SA to announce restrictions tomorrow because they have 3 cases in quarantine lol.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on June 27, 2021, 08:57:43 pm
It's a bed crapting exercise.

Across the nation.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 27, 2021, 09:44:45 pm
Greg Hunt being forced to order a review into the CSIRO and their involvement in the Wuhan Bat research along with some Aus Uni's.The CSIRO have been caught telling porkies about live bat's being used and Matt Canavan won't let it go in the Senate.
The idea that Aus taxpayer money has been used to assist these Chinese researchers in return for what I don't know and has been covered up is disgraceful.
Uni's here will sell their soul for the Chinese money so that doesn't surprise me they are involved.
Let's hope its not another sham like the Who investigation was in Wuhan.

Greg Hunt ordering an enquiry into CSIRO?  That's weird because Christian Porter is the responsible Minister ... but then, the report is in a Murdoch paper.

It's interesting to hear what CSIRO has to say:

Quote
Following two articles which appeared in The Australian on 25 June 2021 (CSIRO, unis in 10 joint research projects with Wuhan lab and Gain-of-function research risks), as the Chief Executive of Australia’s national science agency it is important your readers have the facts about the CSIRO and our research. Accusations around lack of transparency are both misinformed and offensive to the researchers who have worked to safeguard Australia for the last century.

Since the pandemic began, our researchers have worked tirelessly to help protect Australia. This has included pre-clinical testing of potential vaccines, tracking emerging variants of concern, monitoring wastewater to detect hotspots, and supporting domestic manufacturing and testing of surgical masks. This is in addition to our regular work protecting Australia from a host of other diseases like avian flu, zika, white spot prawn, and foot and mouth disease.

CSIRO has never shied away from talking about its research, including with bats. This research underpins much of our understanding of infectious diseases, and enabled us to help create a successful vaccine to treat Hendra virus. All our infectious disease research is conducted in line with strict ethical, biosecurity and regulatory requirements. All research is fully transparent and publicly available.
 
Our involvement in bat research was first raised by Ms Markson early last year. On 28 April 2020 I issued a statement (Statement from CSIRO regarding bat research) that acknowledged that research into bats underpins much of our understanding of zoonotic diseases, but that we don’t currently undertake research on live bats at the Australian Centre for Disease Preparedness (ACDP).

Like people, bats are mammals, except unlike people, bats can carry viruses like Ebola, rabies or SARS, without becoming sick. Understanding more about the immune system of bats, the viruses they may carry, and how these viruses affect them, holds huge potential for how we might be able to protect Australians.

Infectious diseases need a global response. CSIRO has worked with China, the US and other countries on bat research because bat viruses in Asia pose a threat to Australia. CSIRO also works with the US, Japan, Malaysia, France, Indonesia, India, the UK and PNG on a range of other infectious diseases. All of this is done to help protect Australians from potential future pandemics. The speed of the global response to COVID-19 has been attributed to excellent international scientific collaboration.

The ACDP is internationally recognised as a world class, global laboratory, and is one of Australia’s major defence systems against the increasing threat of infectious diseases. I am proud of the work that our teams at this facility do to keep Australians safe.

As the national science agency, we support the pursuit of knowledge, whether that be by scientists, the public or media, however this reporting is speculative and misleading. The Australian’s readers and our public deserve better.

Dr Larry Marshall
Chief Executive, CSIRO

I think that I will place my trust in CSIRO rather than the anti-science organs of the Oligarch.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on June 27, 2021, 10:00:02 pm
Greg Hunt ordering an enquiry into CSIRO?  That's weird because Christian Porter is the responsible Minister ... but then, the report is in a Murdoch paper.

It's interesting to hear what CSIRO has to say:

I think that I will place my trust in CSIRO rather than the anti-science organs of the Oligarch.

Nothing to do with the science, all about the politics...just like the bug.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 28, 2021, 12:27:08 am
Greg Hunt ordering an enquiry into CSIRO?  That's weird because Christian Porter is the responsible Minister ... but then, the report is in a Murdoch paper.

It's interesting to hear what CSIRO has to say:

I think that I will place my trust in CSIRO rather than the anti-science organs of the Oligarch.
Not really weird given Christian Porter might have a few more problems than the CSIRO's participation in live bat research with the Chinese with an issue of a legal nature hanging over his head.
The CSIRO issued a statement they didn't have any involvement in live bat research but later after being caught out lying the Chief Operating Officer had to admit it was true.
The answers provided to Senator Matt Canavan indicated involvement in the main with Hendra virus research but in fact the CSIRO had been involved in research with the infamous Bat lady since 2010 with the Covid virus. Of course all roads lead back to Anthony Fauci who supported gain of function research and didn't tell senior White House officials he was lifting the ban on that type of research.
Fauci in 2012 said that this type of research could cause a pandemic.. He wrote in the American society for Microbiology, he said the benefits outweighed the risks.
Given all that I think its reasonable to be skeptical and wanting some answers but I dont expect the truth to come out given all the politics involved.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 28, 2021, 01:22:05 am
This is all about politics and false flags pointing blame for the mismanagement of the pandemic.

Hard to believe anything News Ltd, you can cherry-pick your line in their rags because they flip from Covid-19 is a hoax to Covid-19 is weapons research in just a couple of pages.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on June 28, 2021, 04:19:36 am
Interesting development:
https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/singapores-surprising-new-plan-to-live-with-covid-revealed/news-story/52fa2c29252daeb4a3c634e1658f6901
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on June 28, 2021, 07:45:25 am
Interesting development:
https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/singapores-surprising-new-plan-to-live-with-covid-revealed/news-story/52fa2c29252daeb4a3c634e1658f6901

Common sense.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 28, 2021, 08:01:35 am
Singapore has vaccinated 86% of it's 5.7M population.

Politically it wants to convince other countries to open up now so that it doesn't suffer further economic damage, that is as mercenary as it gets!

But the concept of living with Sars-CoV-2 or some other variant makes sense, because it's endemic so it is not going away, just get vaccinated and we can all get mostly back to normal, but we might not get back to 100% normal ever so do not expect it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 28, 2021, 08:15:03 am
It's interesting to hear some social media and News Ltd spiel about banning research on gain of function, beating the drums to encourage throwing of rocks at Fauci.

I notice some of it coming from the USA and many ardent Pfizer boosters AZ denigrators, which seems a tad odd in that mRNA vaccines like Pfizer and Moderna are basically built out of gain of function research, while there competitors AZ and J&J are basically traditional. No gain of function probably no mRNA vaccines.

Ironic isn't it?

While here in Oz the right wing has even more ironically jumped into bed with Extinction Rebellion and Peta align politicians drumming up hysteria to point the finger at the mostly scientific left, with the sympathetic politicians seeing it as a backdoor to totally banning live animal research. Of course all this masks the ineptitude of the Federal government, they get there political false flag to blame somebody else for our circumstance. In the meantime I gather the crooked politicians won't divest themselves of shares in companies that import medicine and vaccine from China.

Australia is already just about the most heavily regulated bioresearch locality on the planet. We lose billion of dollar$ and hundreds of valuable researchers every year to OS destinations like the UK, Europe, China and the USA. Not due to funding as many suspect, but because our heavily regulated sector has failed to keep it's laws up to date with the ever increasing technology, globally we are seen as legal luddites which forces our researchers to move their research OS to allow it to continue. In fact if we updated the laws many of the big trusts would fund the research to continue here because it's cheaper than doing it in London or New York. No amount of money will fix it, and Scotty from Marketing hasn't that willpower to go against his Happy Clapping supporter base to move those laws.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 28, 2021, 08:57:12 am
This is all about politics and false flags pointing blame for the mismanagement of the pandemic.

Hard to believe anything News Ltd, you can cherry-pick your line in their rags because they flip from Covid-19 is a hoax to Covid-19 is weapons research in just a couple of pages.
CSIRO lied in their statement and misled a senator when questioned... Not cherry picking
at all. Greg Hunt has been forced to order an enquiry. If the CSIRO have nothing to hide then it shouldn't be a problem...
The Who investigation into the Wuhan Labs was your political sham. They never asked or pushed the live bats being used or stored angle as they didn't want to upset the Who's no2 funding source in China.
That Bat woman is about as trustworthy as those worms they were feeding in those live bat's in the Video and the USA are trying to hide their own involvement and interest in what is chemical weapons research under the guise of scientific research.
However the Chinese fecked it up at that lab and we know the rest... Even their vaccine is a dud and doesn't work and was just a PR stunt. Their behaviour is deplorable with tariffs, trying to bully us economically and their sabre rattling antics need to be met head on. They need to be held to account and made to pay..


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 28, 2021, 09:21:04 am
Interesting development:
https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/singapores-surprising-new-plan-to-live-with-covid-revealed/news-story/52fa2c29252daeb4a3c634e1658f6901
Quote
Vaccination first, then reduce restrictions
Vaccination was key. The road map out of the current measures couldn’t begin until more people had been jabbed.
Singapore is set to have given two-thirds of its residents at least one jab within weeks and to have two thirds fully vaccinated by early August.
Singapore has recorded some fully vaccinated locals getting Covid-19, but none of them have had serious symptoms.
Meanwhile, in Australia only 2.8% of the population has been fully vaccinated & 23.91% have had 1 dose (according to a graphic in The Age). For us to think about following Singapore’s lead without doing the work is like a 200 kg couch potato being inspired by the story of a long distance runner to enter a marathon tomorrow without any preparation.

Why has the “rollout” been so poor? Here’s Michelle Grattan’s take: View from the Hill: COVID battle on a knife edge (https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2021/06/28/view-from-the-hill-covid-battle-on-a-knife-edge/), The Conversation.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 28, 2021, 10:31:05 am
Some wag referred to it as a "stroll out" rather than a roll out.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 28, 2021, 11:40:45 am
https://www.smh.com.au/national/my-fellow-over-60s-you-need-to-be-vaccinated-yesterday-your-vaccine-is-available-abundant-and-safe-20210627-p584mx.html

by John Dwyer
Immunologist and emeritus professor of medicine, UNSW.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 28, 2021, 12:17:49 pm
CSIRO lied in their statement and misled a senator when questioned... Not cherry picking
at all. Greg Hunt has been forced to order an enquiry. If the CSIRO have nothing to hide then it shouldn't be a problem...
The Who investigation into the Wuhan Labs was your political sham. They never asked or pushed the live bats being used or stored angle as they didn't want to upset the Who's no2 funding source in China.
That Bat woman is about as trustworthy as those worms they were feeding in those live bat's in the Video and the USA are trying to hide their own involvement and interest in what is chemical weapons research under the guise of scientific research.
However the Chinese fecked it up at that lab and we know the rest... Even their vaccine is a dud and doesn't work and was just a PR stunt. Their behaviour is deplorable with tariffs, trying to bully us economically and their sabre rattling antics need to be met head on. They need to be held to account and made to pay..

Sarah Henderson, another stooge of the Oligarch, is now calling for an enquiry into the CSIRO.  I'm not sure that she would be doing that if one had already been announced  :-\   And Christian Porter, the responsible Minister, has said nothing  ::)

This article has been overtaken by events (vaccine availability) and was published well before the WHO investigation but it does give a good account of the likely origins of COVID-19:

https://www.publish.csiro.au/ma/pdf/MA20013

There are very few organisations that I trust less than the Oligarch's media empire.  The CCP is one of them, but it's a close-run race.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 28, 2021, 01:12:56 pm
Sarah Henderson, another stooge of the Oligarch
Needless to say lots and lots of politics in this, with Deakin's Geelong campus in Sarah's backyard benefitting massively from any shifts in Federal funding away from CSIRO, or should I say any change in the distribution of funding.

But this is not new news to those of us involved or connected with this sector long term, it's a bitch fight for every last Fed dollar! Deakin has been doing very very well in recent years, but at the moment there is a significant Western District bent to the Federal and State representation.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 28, 2021, 01:20:48 pm
Nice 1st hand report from someone working on the ground in Wuhan.

https://www.theage.com.au/world/asia/australian-scientist-the-sole-foreign-researcher-at-the-wuhan-lab-speaks-out-20210628-p584sv.html

Quote
Danielle Anderson was working in what has become the world’s most notorious laboratory just weeks before the first known cases of COVID-19 emerged in central China. Yet, the Victorian virologist still wonders what she missed.
Interesting that Anderson and lots of her Wuhan colleagues attended a Singapore Conference on Nipah virus before being vaccinated and were tested for COVID, none indicating they had tested positive for COVID antibodies, not even something to get excited about. I gather you won't find that in News Ltd or the Hansard as it doesn't suit the politics! Some on here will do doubt use that info somewhere to claim Sars-CoV-2 is a hoax! ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 28, 2021, 02:27:46 pm
^^

I reckon Sars-Cov-2 is not a hoax and to accuse anyone of thinking so is a bit false anyway as I think people have looked at this pandemic and decided its not that dangerous (rightly or wrongly).



Whilst that doesn't mean a lot for anyone, its worthy to consider the golfer who was leading the tournament, and was not far from the final hole when news of his positive test came through and he was inconsolable.

He was immediately out of a tournament he was leading and likely to win given he was 5 strokes ahead, he was tapped on the shoulder, and then embraced by others.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-06/covid-19-jon-rahm-tests-positive-while-leading-us-pga-event/100193772

Quote
Rahm, the defending champion and current world number three, seemed poised for victory in Dublin.

He had produced a commanding performance that included a hole-in-one to complete his second round and an 8-under-par 64 to tie two tournament records.

Quote
He was the first positive asymptomatic case as part of the Tour's contact-tracing protocols.

It was a shocking turn of events for Rahm given the timing.

He was close to perfect on the back nine, running off six birdies in an eight-hole stretch to turn a one-shot lead into a six-shot cushion.

Rahm tied the Memorial record for largest 54-hole lead set by Tiger Woods in 2000.

Now I get it, he won the covid lottery and he was asymptomatic, but is he just lucky or is this closer to the norm than not?

I think this is where the majority of people (including myself) struggle with the whole covid situation.

Whilst we can count ourselves all quite lucky considering low case numbers, it appears that we were quite unlucky last year in the fact that it got into our aged care facilities.

Its a tough tightrope to walk and it would be nice to know more about it all I guess.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 28, 2021, 02:31:23 pm
From world champions to laughing stock: Sydney in lockdown, borders shut and hardly anyone vaccinated. How long can Australia go on like this? CNN (https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/27/australia/sydney-lockdown-australia-covid-pandemic-intl-cmd/index.html).
Quote
In the window of a vintage shop in the Sydney suburb of Annandale, a sign expresses the frustration of many Australians with their country's pandemic strategy.
"Dear Customers, We will be closed for the foreseeable future because Scott Morrison is a useless dickhead who only ordered enough vaccine to vaccinate 4% of the population 18 months into a pandemic," reads the sign, shared on Twitter, in reference to the Australian Prime Minister.
  :))
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 28, 2021, 03:00:38 pm
"Dear Customers, We will be closed for the foreseeable future because Scott Morrison is a useless dickhead who only ordered enough vaccine to vaccinate 4% of the population 18 months into a pandemic"

I don't know of anyone who's been turned away from receiving a jab and 25 million doses were ordered in April and May 2021.  So who is this Annandale dickhead?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 28, 2021, 03:12:54 pm
https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-vaccines/covid-19-vaccine-government-response/australias-vaccine-agreements

This is the official government page, that shows each vaccine and the doses purchased / manufactured / secured for each one.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 28, 2021, 03:17:48 pm
Now I get it, he won the covid lottery and he was asymptomatic, but is he just lucky or is this closer to the norm than not?

I think this is where the majority of people (including myself) struggle with the whole covid situation.
Possibly, but in the USA they are starting to realise that being asymptomatic doesn't mean you won't be impacted, recent early reports from some large longitudinal studies suggest as many as 30% of asymptomatic and mild cases are reporting deleterious effects 3 to 6 months later. For this reason they are now calling for a renewed push for effective treatments as well as vaccination.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 28, 2021, 03:21:23 pm
https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-vaccines/covid-19-vaccine-government-response/australias-vaccine-agreements

This is the official government page, that shows each vaccine and the doses purchased / manufactured / secured for each one.
Yes, the ordering isn't the supply problem if the supply problem really exists at all, it's the delivery timeline which most reports do not mention.

Regardless, at my local vaccination centre the staff there were begging people to come at get vaccinated right up until the last Melbourne lockdown, and then they were flooded with patrons, I bet it's the same in Sydney.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 28, 2021, 04:49:48 pm
Sarah Henderson, another stooge of the Oligarch, is now calling for an enquiry into the CSIRO.  I'm not sure that she would be doing that if one had already been announced  :-\   And Christian Porter, the responsible Minister, has said nothing  ::)

This article has been overtaken by events (vaccine availability) and was published well before the WHO investigation but it does give a good account of the likely origins of COVID-19:

https://www.publish.csiro.au/ma/pdf/MA20013

There are very few organisations that I trust less than the Oligarch's media empire.  The CCP is one of them, but it's a close-run race.
Porter is a lame duck minister of Science and Industry and the 5th minister in that role in 5 years.
I doubt whether he has authority or the willingness to order a pencil sharpener given he is being hidden away from the spotlight
after his legal issues.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 28, 2021, 05:56:09 pm
"Dear Customers, We will be closed for the foreseeable future because Scott Morrison is a useless dickhead who only ordered enough vaccine to vaccinate 4% of the population 18 months into a pandemic"

I don't know of anyone who's been turned away from receiving a jab and 25 million doses were ordered in April and May 2021.  So who is this Annandale dickhead?


Ordered but not received!

Dr Norman Swan thoughts on our Government's vaccine procurement:

Quote
“I’ve now had three sources telling me the same story, including from the United States, of what happened with Pfizer last June,” Swan told ABC Radio Melbourne host, Rafael Epstein, earlier this month.

“And if these three separate sources are right, what happened with Pfizer last June is that they wanted to make Australia an example to the world about how to roll it out, a bit like Israel or other places, and they said, ‘How much do you want and when do you want it?’

As we reported in January, Israel implemented a world-leading Covid-19 vaccine roll-out, with preferential vaccine access from Pfizer playing an indispensable role. Being a small country with a modern health system, Israel was offered first access to the vaccine in exchange for real-world data on safety and efficacy in a population-wide roll-out via its health system’s vaccine surveillance programs.

According to Swan, “On 10 July [2020], there was a meeting, and what I’m told happened at that meeting is that there was an inexperienced person there with procurement. They were pretty rude, and they said, ‘Oh, well, you’re going to have to give us all your IP,’  which is an amazing thing to have said, and then started nickel-and-diming on the cost.

“Essentially, the conversation stopped, and then they came back in November, the Commonwealth and only got 10 million doses. They should have got 40 million so that it was a true back-up.”

If Swan’s sources are correct, the Commonwealth’s blunder on the vaccine is responsible for the ongoing lock-downs and border restrictions Australians are having to live with. While Australians are still struggling to get an appointment to be vaccinated, Israeli doctors have been calling people to offer them the vaccine since late February.

By late March, 60% of Israelis had already received their first shot, which is about as many people as wanted to be vaccinated at all.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 28, 2021, 06:02:11 pm
Porter is a lame duck minister of Science and Industry and the 5th minister in that role in 5 years.
I doubt whether he has authority or the willingness to order a pencil sharpener given he is being hidden away from the spotlight
after his legal issues.

Porter may be a lame duck Minister and he has some problems but, under our version of the Westminster system, Ministers can only act on the portfolios/departments/legislation to which they are appointed by the PM and sworn in by the GG.  Hunt could only order an inquiry into the CSIRO if he was acting Minister in Porter's place.  I do not believe that Porter is still on "sick leave".
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 28, 2021, 07:03:34 pm
Wow! We’re Nation number 94 on the vaccinations table. But at least we’re above India ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 28, 2021, 10:23:26 pm
Interesting factoid about the super-spreader party in Sydney:  Thirty people attended and 24 ended up infected with COVID-19, the other six were vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on June 29, 2021, 06:19:41 am
Interesting factoid about the super-spreader party in Sydney:  Thirty people attended and 24 ended up infected with COVID-19, the other six were vaccinated.

You do realise that a positive test result does not mean you're infected with anything at all necessarily?

And have you missed the latest out of the UK  - more are dying from the vaxxed cohort than the unvaxxed....

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/997418/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_17.pdf

(which clearly shows the delta variant is as dangerous as a warm fart)

And the numbers of deaths?

“We see 16 serious side effects per 100,000 vax, and the number of fatal side effects is at 4.11/100,000 vax. For 3 deaths prevented by vax we have to accept 2 inflicted by vax.

This lack of clear benefit should cause govts to rethink their vax policy.”

https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/9/7/693/htm
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 29, 2021, 08:02:05 am
The UK released official figures for vaccine related deaths just last week, which was based on a study of the last 19.6 million doses the UK has issued. For all vaccines and all complications the latest figures are;

For under 40s the side-effect death rate from vaccines is approx 0.8 people per one million dose, for over 40s it is approx 2.3 people per one million doses.

There was no vaccine that was spectacularly safer or worse than any other.

For Sars-CoV-2 by comparison to the vaccine, if those million were left unvaccinated, the Delta variant will seriously infect more than 258,000 people, with approx 30% of that 258,000 suffering serious and long term illness, and 6,000 of the 258,000 dying.

When you compare that the earlier variants, in which there would be about 70,000 serious cases from the million and 1,800 deaths.

So for those a little dusty on the math, that means Sars-CoV-2 is more lethal than the worst case scenario for the vaccines somewhere between 780 times for all variants, and 2600 times for the Delta variant!

It becomes pretty clear why they take the Delta variant so seriously.

btw., The vaccine politics of it all is exposed by the stats, because it turns out less people die from AZ in the under 40s than in the over 40s, but I suppose nobody wants to see young people suffer long term health effects so the oldies get the AZ. Of course the decisions are made relative to the lethality of COVID-19 illness for different age groups, but unfortunately death is only one measure as the USA is about to find out.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on June 29, 2021, 08:24:21 am
https://theconversation.cmail20.com/t/ViewEmail/r/E4BDE5B83B9BA4922540EF23F30FEDED/DFB0020512B27996ED4007335B4C37B5

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on June 29, 2021, 08:30:06 am
You live on another planet LP.

Your Delta numbers are spurious, if not facile too.

So explain how case numbers in the UK are rising in a hugely vaccinated population (with much of the balance with natural immunity from previous infection or existing immunity).

Deaths in the UK?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

Quote
The MHRA has received 425 UK reports of suspected ADRs to the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine in which the patient died shortly after vaccination, 904 reports for the COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca, 5 for the COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna and 22 where the brand of vaccine was unspecified.

But heck, it's OK, they were old anyway!

Quote
The majority of these reports were in elderly people or people with underlying illness. Usage of the COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca has increased rapidly and as such, so has reporting of fatal events with a temporal association with vaccination however, this does not indicate a link between vaccination and the fatalities reported. Review of individual reports and patterns of reporting does not suggest the vaccine played a role in the death.

So no autopsy...and of course anyone who thinks themselves on the brink of deaths races out to get the vaccine right!

Occam's Razor 101.

Whilst you're at it LP, flick me the studies where they've isolated SARS COV2 would you?



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 29, 2021, 08:48:28 am
https://theconversation.cmail20.com/t/ViewEmail/r/E4BDE5B83B9BA4922540EF23F30FEDED/DFB0020512B27996ED4007335B4C37B5

This is the article in question ;

https://theconversation.com/contrasting-nsw-and-victoria-lockdown-coverage-reveals-much-about-the-politics-of-covid-and-the-media-163482
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on June 29, 2021, 09:26:33 am
This is the article in question ;

https://theconversation.com/contrasting-nsw-and-victoria-lockdown-coverage-reveals-much-about-the-politics-of-covid-and-the-media-163482


Did I stuff up the link, Pauly? Wouldn't be surprised!

Such an important article from 'The Conversation' - the place I now go for truly objective, unbiased and intelligent reporting. Thank you, Pauly.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 29, 2021, 10:08:11 am
Common sense has prevailed and AstraZeneca is to be made available to younger folk again 🙂😷
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 29, 2021, 10:21:43 am
Did I stuff up the link, Pauly? Wouldn't be surprised!

Such an important article from 'The Conversation' - the place I now go for truly objective, unbiased and intelligent reporting. Thank you, Pauly.

Yes, the Conversation is a breath of fresh air in the poisonous atmosphere generated by the Oligarch’s minions. 

Meanwhile, John “Brumbies” Barilaro has broken ranks and admitted that NSW should have gone into lockdown much earlier.  He is a loose cannon but I think he’s right in this case; Gladys has opened Pandora’s box 🙁😷
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 29, 2021, 10:30:28 am
Did I stuff up the link, Pauly? Wouldn't be surprised!

Such an important article from 'The Conversation' - the place I now go for truly objective, unbiased and intelligent reporting. Thank you, Pauly.


Balanced? Maybe maybe not. Yes the latest outbreak resulted from the SA hotel quarantine but the local Vic contact tracers botched one of the first exposure sites by naming the wrong Wollies store. Why wasn't this mentioned in the article. There were other failings in the local systems which we were told were  gold star.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 29, 2021, 11:09:00 am
Balanced? Maybe maybe not. Yes the latest outbreak resulted from the SA hotel quarantine but the local Vic contact tracers botched one of the first exposure sites by naming the wrong Wollies store. Why wasn't this mentioned in the article. There were other failings in the local systems which we were told were  gold star.

https://theconversation.com/where-did-victoria-go-so-wrong-with-contact-tracing-and-have-they-fixed-it-147993

Meanwhile, the COVID-infected father of the superspreader party host still hasn’t been contacted by NSW officials 🙄

Still, all of the outbreaks stem from returned travellers and hotel quarantine failures.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 29, 2021, 01:26:50 pm
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting
Aaah, the old yellow card routine, voluntary reporting, a bit like asking a 1970s Sth African if they are racist!

For reference;
Quote
Part of our monitoring role includes reviewing reports of suspected side effects. Any member of the public or health professional can submit suspected side effects through the Yellow Card scheme. The nature of Yellow Card reporting means that reported events are not always proven side effects. Some events may have happened anyway, regardless of vaccination. This is particularly the case when millions of people are vaccinated, and especially when most vaccines are being given to the most elderly people and people who have underlying illness.
Where does this definition come from that seems to undermine the validity of the yellow card scheme, ........................ and also undermines your own conclusions, ............................. from the very report you linked! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 29, 2021, 01:39:49 pm
The political side of this bureaucratic bungling is putting everyone at jeopardy.
Quote
General practitioners say they have been blindsided by a decision overnight regarding their administration of the AstraZeneca to under-60s. Some doctors say they are so confused by conflicting advice they are unwilling to administer the vaccine to younger cohorts until they receive official guidance.

Prime Minister Scott Morrison announced a new indemnity scheme on Monday night, which will allow GPs to administer the AstraZeneca vaccine to any adult who wants it regardless of their age.

From today, all Australians can walk into their general practices and request an AstraZeneca vaccine.
The bureaucrats are so reactive to political and social opinion, they are disregarding the science and flipping almost weekly.

In hindsight it was never about the science and all to do with blame, but none of us, well most of us, won't be surprised about that!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 29, 2021, 01:49:26 pm
https://theconversation.cmail20.com/t/ViewEmail/r/E4BDE5B83B9BA4922540EF23F30FEDED/DFB0020512B27996ED4007335B4C37B5
Then you look at The Hun and other News Ltd rags today, and they are telling millenials why they should not to worry and get the AZ vaccine ASAP.

News Ltd has no face, they've spent many months making spurious suggestions AZ will kill you, now it's being suggested as the ultimate miracle cure which you you get without hesitation.

@Baggers  It's exactly as your link suggests, and all about politics!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 29, 2021, 02:00:59 pm
The rats are fleeing a sinking ship:
Don’t blame me for Sydney cluster, it’s NSW’s problem: PM (https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/don-t-blame-me-for-sydney-cluster-it-s-nsw-s-problem-pm-20210624-p583x2), AFR.
Quote
Facing growing dissatisfaction from premiers about the supply of vaccination stocks, the Prime Minister blamed the NSW government for a failure to enforce mandatory vaccination rules to cover a driver of international aircrew who passed on the virus.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 29, 2021, 02:10:32 pm
I reckon it’s time to switch the focus to vaccinating the young. The oldies have had their opportunity to be vaccinated. By all means, ensure nursing home residents and staff are vaccinated and ensure frontline workers are as well. But what demographic is most likely to be out and about? Young people.

The original prioritisation of older people took into account that they would be more likely to be severely affected by Covid. But now we need to address transmission rates. It appears that The Delta variant is quite happy using the young as vectors, perhaps unlike previous strains.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 29, 2021, 02:23:51 pm
But this IS albeit indirectly, the fault of NSW.  Any cab can be hailed for whatever reason of carriage.  Airports and suburbs.  Same as a bus or a tram.  ALL public transport operators must be vaccinated and cleared regardless of state.  We are so farken stupid sometimes, that rule should have been instituted last year.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 29, 2021, 02:48:30 pm
The rats are fleeing a sinking ship:
I think this could be seen coming for weeks now, the argy bargy has all been about plausible deniability.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 29, 2021, 02:50:29 pm
Agree absolutely, Capcom. A fear you’ll have a shortage of workers if you require vaccinations is the tail wagging the dog. Safety protocols protecting 3rd parties shouldn’t be relaxed just to increase productivity. We’ve seen in the trucking industry that pressuring drivers to stay on the road 24/7 might make them more productive but the costs to the community are substantial.

If drivers are a bottle neck in handling flights, either incentivise drivers to vaccinate or recruit by raising conditions, or reduce flights so the bottleneck disappears.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on June 29, 2021, 03:42:14 pm
Then you look at The Hun and other News Ltd rags today, and they are telling millenials why they should not to worry and get the AZ vaccine ASAP.

News Ltd has no face, they've spent many months making spurious suggestions AZ will kill you, now it's being suggested as the ultimate miracle cure which you you get without hesitation.

@Baggers  It's exactly as your link suggests, and all about politics!
Well, it seems The Age took notice of The Conversation and published a good article on the same premise... the blatant and crass favouratism afforded the LNP states from News Ltd.

If News Ltd was an individual they'd be in a psych ward under treatment for Borderline Personality Disorder.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 29, 2021, 03:44:26 pm
Well, it seems The Age took notice of The Conversation and published a good article on the same premise... the blatant and crass favouratism afforded the LNP states from News Ltd.

If News Ltd was an individual they'd be in a psych ward under treatment for Borderline Personality Disorder.
By lunchtime the very same News Ltd rags had put Greg Hunt front page as part of a giant header saying Pfizer is preferred for under 60s. Then it magically disappeared.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on June 29, 2021, 03:51:00 pm
By lunchtime the very same News Ltd rags had put Greg Hunt front page as part of a giant header saying Pfizer is preferred for under 60s. Then in magically disappeared.

Noticed the same thing. Does their hypocrisy know no bounds?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 29, 2021, 03:52:58 pm
Noticed the same thing. Does their hypocrisy know no bounds?
btw., They are publishing another story that Pfizer and Moderna if mixed and matched are a miracle cure offering years of COVID resistance and no need for boosters.

No they know no bounds, they are complicit in creating an unmanageable hysteria.

You could argue the News Ltd lefthand doesn't know what the righthand is doing, if you choose to be so gullible as to think it is just innocent commentary.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on June 29, 2021, 05:35:30 pm
I wonder when we can expect Peta Credlin and her group of sycophantic reporters from News Ltd to  attend a news conference held by the saviour of Australia, Queen Gladys, and her health minister, and grill them on the obvious failure of the NSW Health Dept to follow regulations or to have regulations in place to avoid covid spread.

It goes without saying that each question will be asked in as scornful a manner as possible and, irrespective of the answer, will be asked several times again by the gutter press reporters.

Flushed with success they could then put meaningful questions to  the Prime Minister of NSW concerning the vaccine rollout shambles and the failure to build dedicated quarantine facilities, and why they will be  built not in place of but it in conjunction with continued hotel quarantine facilities. 



 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on June 29, 2021, 08:20:12 pm
In all the excitement of building new quarantine facilities around the country, don’t lose track of the fact that the NT’s facility was constructed by private industry and handed back to the NT gov as early as possible because of its maintenance costs, I’m 98% sure the figure was $250,000 per month to maintain the place empty and have security in place, Covid couldn’t come quick enough because there was serious talk of running a bulldozer through the place because of its drain on our already overloaded coffers.
Be careful what you wish for…
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 29, 2021, 08:28:00 pm
In all the excitement of building new quarantine facilities around the country, don’t lose track of the fact that the NT’s facility was constructed by private industry and handed back to the NT gov as early as possible because of its maintenance costs, I’m 98% sure the figure was $250,000 per month to maintain the place empty and have security in place, Covid couldn’t come quick enough because there was serious talk of running a bulldozer through the place because of its drain on our already overloaded coffers.
Be careful what you wish for…
True, but whats the cost to the economy of deaths and lockdowns?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on June 29, 2021, 08:33:36 pm
True, but whats the cost to the economy of deaths and lockdowns?

No doubt, but it’s a bit like how much insurance do you want to pay for ?
We all know the first cash strapped gov will start “trimming” the maintenance costs of such facilities, and that’s the problem, they are empty facilities that need to be ready to go in a weeks notice, pandemic, bushfire, cyclone relocation points.
The cost is why we didn’t have them…
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 29, 2021, 08:35:21 pm
No doubt, but it’s a bit like how much insurance do you want to pay for ?
We all know the first cash strapped gov will start “trimming” the maintenance costs of such facilities, and that’s the problem, they are empty facilities that need to be ready to go in a weeks notice, pandemic, bushfire, cyclone relocation points.
The cost is why we didn’t have them…
Dunno, what price do you put on 820 Australians no longer with us?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on June 29, 2021, 09:00:25 pm
Dunno, what price do you put on 820 Australians no longer with us?

Do I get to select the 820 ? 😎

Sadly they are departed and we can’t help them.

Again I ask you insurance… how much are you prepared to pay in premiums ?
More than you earn in income ? Half ? 5% ?

I understand what you’re saying and don’t disagree, I’m just pointing out that if these centers are to be properly built and fit for purpose AND ready to go then the bastards (politicians) won’t be trimming their salaries to make the budget work.

I think if we want a pandemic facility the NT one has provided the blueprint, but I’m not sure that one (or more) in each state is financially workable. Maybe one other, both federally funded and everyone (foreign arrivals at least) funnels through them probably doesn’t work for local cases though.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 29, 2021, 09:18:04 pm
Do I get to select the 820 ? 😎

Sadly they are departed and we can’t help them.

Again I ask you insurance… how much are you prepared to pay in premiums ?
More than you earn in income ? Half ? 5% ?

I understand what you’re saying and don’t disagree, I’m just pointing out that if these centers are to be properly built and fit for purpose AND ready to go then the bastards (politicians) won’t be trimming their salaries to make the budget work.

I think if we want a pandemic facility the NT one has provided the blueprint, but I’m not sure that one (or more) in each state is financially workable. Maybe one other, both federally funded and everyone (foreign arrivals at least) funnels through them probably doesn’t work for local cases though.

Then you also have to consider how well equipped are our health services to deal with a pandemic if it hit in earnest and inundated them.

A lot of the older hospitals around are extremely under equipped and service a large catchment.

Prevention is better than cure I agree, but this is to a degree a zero sum game.  The money used in quarantine could go a long way to service the community in a variety of ways and the shortfalls are enormous.

I understand what you're saying.  A quarantine facility purpose built is a luxury.  Thing is people need to understand that the risks of escape done dissappear because there is a facility.  They just decrease.

The few leaks we hear about are very incidental and coincidental. 

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 29, 2021, 09:30:58 pm
Do I get to select the 820 ? 😎

Sadly they are departed and we can’t help them.

Again I ask you insurance… how much are you prepared to pay in premiums ?
More than you earn in income ? Half ? 5% ?

I understand what you’re saying and don’t disagree, I’m just pointing out that if these centers are to be properly built and fit for purpose AND ready to go then the bastards (politicians) won’t be trimming their salaries to make the budget work.

I think if we want a pandemic facility the NT one has provided the blueprint, but I’m not sure that one (or more) in each state is financially workable. Maybe one other, both federally funded and everyone (foreign arrivals at least) funnels through them probably doesn’t work for local cases though.
The 820 might have been preventable though, if this thing has taught us anything, its that we need to be better prepared.
Deaths aside, from a financial point of view, the Mrs and I have worked hard over the years and have saved a penny or 10. She can work from home as she's a teacher, so can I if I have to so no problems there. Unfortunately, far too many people are are not as lucky as me and they are the people I literally lose sleep over. Mortgages, school fees, bills, food on the table with no money coming in, it makes me sick to the core just thinking about it. As nation, we need to be much better prepared for the next "Scotsman" (no offence to the Scottish, its a reference to the crazy Scott who came out of the bushes from nowhere during an Olympic Marathon and took out the leader). We have to have learnt a lesson surely.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on June 29, 2021, 10:14:16 pm
You both make great points @Thryleon & @Gointocarlton.
Ideally we could trust people to go home and stay home… 🤣

I’m going through my first lockdown, we were locked down last year, but I and every other tradie was flat out quoting work for a gov stimulus package 🙄
On Sunday arvo darwin was put into lockdown, then on Monday arvo they listed “casual contact” sites, one of which was Darwin Bunnings on Saturday morning, guess where I was on Saturday morning…?
Their exposure timeframe drifted over the course of Monday and night, initially 10-10:15 Saturday, my receipt was date stamped 10:09 🙄😬
I rang the Covid hotline and finally got a call back at 9pm Monday night, only to be put on hold again… got a call this morning confirming that the exposure time was 10:30-10:40 Saturday, so I’m in the clear.
But it gets you thinking about you exposure… my customer and her partner, her daughter, my wife, the houses that my wife cleaned on Sunday morning, her cleaning boss, the lady we dropped some produce off to, the woolies that I went to for my usual weekly shop on Sunday lunch (when everyone in darwin turned up to panic buy, most without masks) then on Monday me and my wife’s return to woolies, and bottle shop prior to hearing about my possible Bunnings exposure… geez !!
The numbers are breathtaking !
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 29, 2021, 11:40:13 pm
You both make great points @Thryleon & @Gointocarlton.
Ideally we could trust people to go home and stay home… 🤣

I’m going through my first lockdown, we were locked down last year, but I and every other tradie was flat out quoting work for a gov stimulus package 🙄
On Sunday arvo darwin was put into lockdown, then on Monday arvo they listed “casual contact” sites, one of which was Darwin Bunnings on Saturday morning, guess where I was on Saturday morning…?
Their exposure timeframe drifted over the course of Monday and night, initially 10-10:15 Saturday, my receipt was date stamped 10:09 🙄😬
I rang the Covid hotline and finally got a call back at 9pm Monday night, only to be put on hold again… got a call this morning confirming that the exposure time was 10:30-10:40 Saturday, so I’m in the clear.
But it gets you thinking about you exposure… my customer and her partner, her daughter, my wife, the houses that my wife cleaned on Sunday morning, her cleaning boss, the lady we dropped some produce off to, the woolies that I went to for my usual weekly shop on Sunday lunch (when everyone in darwin turned up to panic buy, most without masks) then on Monday me and my wife’s return to woolies, and bottle shop prior to hearing about my possible Bunnings exposure… geez !!
The numbers are breathtaking !

They sure are!

Apparently the contact tracers here in Victoria can spend four hours or more on the phone to one contact before they're satisfied that they know all of their exposure sites and contacts.  It's a huge task and good luck to them.

And, speaking of luck, it's bad luck that the COVID-Safe app was a dud.  It could have saved a lot of work and perhaps even some lives if it had been able to do what it was claimed  ::)

Good to hear that you're in the clear and I hope it stays that way.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 30, 2021, 01:46:11 am
Interesting article in the SMH: The truth about what vaccines are achieving, from a country getting it right (https://amp.smh.com.au/world/europe/the-truth-about-what-vaccines-are-achieving-from-a-country-getting-it-right-20210628-p5852n.html?__twitter_impression=true)
The opening 2 paragraphs and the last paragraph are:
Quote
By now you’ve probably heard Scott Morrison’s argument, which goes something like this: Australia can’t yet talk about a post-pandemic future because we still don’t know whether vaccines guarantee a return to normality.

To illustrate the point, the Prime Minister regularly notes COVID-19 cases are climbing in Britain even though 85 per cent of all adults have been given one dose of a vaccine and 62 per cent the full two.

...

The Prime Minister is entitled to defend his strategy. But he also has an obligation to not cherry pick the facts about a vaccination program far more successful than his own.

It makes these points:
The fact that the double vaccinated are still being infected and some are dying is due to the vulnerability of older people:
Quote
David Spiegelhalter, the chair of the Winton Centre for Risk and Evidence Communication at Cambridge, and Anthony Masters, a statistical ambassador for the Royal Statistical Society, have a simple explanation for why so many fully vaccinated people died: the vaccines are not perfect and older people will always be at most risk.

“The risk of dying from COVID-19 is extraordinarily dependent on age: it halves for each six to seven year age gap,” they wrote in The Guardian. “This means that someone aged 80 who is fully vaccinated essentially takes on the risk of an unvaccinated person of around 50 – much lower, but still [it’s] not nothing, and so we can expect some deaths.”
This highlights the need to vaccinate the workers at aged care centres as well as the residents.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 30, 2021, 12:47:00 pm
Given the rising numbers interstate, and the number of people returning to Vic from red zones, it's very hard to see us avoiding another lockdown, but fingers crossed they will all do the right thing and quarantine.

 But I fear some of those returning were actually lockdown escapees who went interstate for the very reason of avoiding a lockdown, and now they are returning for much the same reason, so I think they are highly unlikely to quarantine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 30, 2021, 12:53:29 pm
I think we need to get our testing requirements sorted before we worry too much about the rest.

Identifying a threat is probably a bit more important than mitigating against it.

i.e.  I just spoke to one of the stores men at our health service and he advised me he has had one covid test the whole way through.

This in itself isnt a massive issue, but when you consider he stocks the shelves in ICU, Theatres, and all manner of other locations, I think it would be reasonable enough to see all staff that work onsite in high risk locations tested once a fortnight.

I myself as an IT support worker have only been tested reactively (symptoms) like him, and that means that we have multiple workers who only get tested once symptomatic.

Is that a much bigger risk profile than anything else?  Id say so.  Sure we all wear masks and stuff, but we are more likely to super spread in an environment where things are dire than anyone else, and there is literally no requirement to test unless symptomatic or exposed.  Thats a bit silly.  We villify the people fleeing lockdowns, but lets face it, when you declare a lockdown starting from X tomorrow, then that in itself leaves too much scope for people to simply leave.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 30, 2021, 01:25:43 pm
People simply "escape" to avoid the ensuing 14 day isolations.  The states act with unchallenged impunity and then blame the Feds.  Chaos and dirt cheap politics follow.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on June 30, 2021, 01:47:53 pm
People escape because they’re selfish. If they’re infected, they can obtain treatment at their new location and they can wander around to their heart’s content until they need to be treated. That they might infect others is not their problem. They don’t care. That’s pretty apparent from the extent many have gone to in order to avoid quarantine.

People who aren’t selfish when they leave an area with a Covid outbreak would ensure they’re tested to ensure they aren’t infectious and isolate until they’re cleared. They’re not the ones we worry about. It’s the selfish ones who couldn’t give a *#$@ we worry about.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 30, 2021, 03:53:57 pm
People escape because they’re selfish. If they’re infected, they can obtain treatment at their new location and they can wander around to their heart’s content until they need to be treated. That they might infect others is not their problem. They don’t care. That’s pretty apparent from the extent many have gone to in order to avoid quarantine.

People who aren’t selfish when they leave an area with a Covid outbreak would ensure they’re tested to ensure they aren’t infectious and isolate until they’re cleared. They’re not the ones we worry about. It’s the selfish ones who couldn’t give a *#$@ we worry about.

I don't have an argument with any of that @Mav .... just like that Bunnings b**ch or others who think rules, let alone human decency don't apply to them. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on June 30, 2021, 08:48:10 pm
Did I stuff up the link, Pauly? Wouldn't be surprised!

Such an important article from 'The Conversation' - the place I now go for truly objective, unbiased and intelligent reporting. Thank you, Pauly.


Thanks Baggers and Paul for the link.  A most interesting article.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 01, 2021, 07:31:58 am
These imbecile polies again confusing everyone over AZ for under 60s and it takes soldier to come out and explain it properly (the guy in charge of rolling it out explained in on CH7 news).

ATAGI recommends mRNA Pfizer for under 60s BUT you can go to your GP and have a conversation about having AZ if you want.

The silly slag QLD CHO should be sacked immediately, every expert slamming her..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 01, 2021, 08:12:08 am
What an utter debacle.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 01, 2021, 08:48:59 am

The silly slag QLD CHO should be sacked immediately, every expert slamming her..

But that other fool "Premier Palace" just gave Young the plum job of QLD GG.  Both dumbarse hypocrites. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 01, 2021, 09:10:21 am
Disappointing that abounding egos and petty politics and one-ups-manship blind so many pollies and health officers to why they're there - for the people of this country, you flogs.

Mind you, had ScoMo got his priorities right, and acted instead of yapping many, many months ago, Pfizer would have been far more widely administered and available and our population would have a far higher vaccination rate that the abysmal 5% at present... should be closer, with competent pollies, to 60+%!!!

Time for all Premiers, Feds and CHOs to be shoved in a room together, told they're not being let out until they have a united strategy for the benefit of all Aussies and all messages will be consistent with each other. Actually not that difficult but, as I mentioned above, when egos, ideologies and unhealthy competitiveness come into play - c0ckups abound and News Ltd opinion writers have a field day.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 01, 2021, 09:30:54 am
Scomo trying to flog the cheaper AstraZ to the U40s because boxes of it are piling up everywhere because no wants it and he didn't order enough Pfizer.
Then wanting to lay the responsibility on GPs to make the call and go against the ATAGI recommendations. You can understand why GPs would be nervous.. If a young person dies on their watch it will be them wearing the responsibility even if Scomos indemnity holds up in court.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on July 01, 2021, 09:58:56 am
Scomo trying to flog the cheaper AstraZ to the U40s because boxes of it are piling up everywhere because no wants it and he didn't order enough Pfizer.
Then wanting to lay the responsibility on GPs to make the call and go against the ATAGI recommendations. You can understand why GPs would be nervous.. If a young person dies on their watch it will be them wearing the responsibility even if Scomos indemnity holds up in court.

GPs want indemnity and Scotty jumped the gun before announcing his decision ... and falsely implying that it was a national cabinet decision.

Surely, it’s not too hard to put appropriate measures in place and develop a national consensus to get people vaccinated ASAP. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 01, 2021, 10:49:17 am
The hard data shows the real world risk is very very low, if the u40s don't vaccinate and get COVID-19, more of them will die from COVID-19 or suffer seriously debilitating long term health effects than the risk of sever complication from a vaccine side-effect.

If a million people get vaccinated, one might die from a directly attributed side-effect of any vaccine. If a million people do not get vaccinated, only about 30 have to get COVID-19 for the risk of one person dying to be equally the same as the one million who got vaccinations! The math puts the political and social media debate to shame, it is a non-contest, vaccines (any vaccine) will save lives. That doesn't even consider the fact that the Sars-CoV-2 is highly contagious, and the likelihood of more than just 30 unvaccinated individuals getting infected is very high. In the UK for every one million unvaccinated / vaccinated individuals they average at the moment about 70,000 infections, with that number set to rise under the new variant some are predicting a 300% increase. The only thing stopping the UK death rate soaring, in fact it is plummeting, is that they have a large percentage of the UK population already vaccinated with at least one dose.

Arguing against using the available vaccines is a bit like a passivist arguing not to attack because they will shoot us, when the enemy is Putin's KGB hit squad and they already have a gun cocked and pointed at your forehead! The anti-vaxxers are like the French in the war, don't shoot I surrender!

Cynics will argue those numbers do not apply here in Oz, but that is a symptom of our lockdowns not a symptom of the virus or vaccinations. At the moment we do not have 70,000 infections per-million because of the lockdowns. If we do lose control of the outbreak, we will have hundreds per million dying from COVID-19 illness.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 01, 2021, 11:06:15 am
Scomo trying to flog the cheaper AstraZ to the U40s because boxes of it are piling up everywhere because no wants it and he didn't order enough Pfizer.
They've ordered many times what they need, they can keep ordering as much as they like but they aren't being supplied, do not get sucked in by the media, Oz is not a priority for Pfizer we are on the long long delivery lead-time.

It's easy to shout wait for the Pfizer, but the reality is we'll have people waiting until they are dead or debilitated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 01, 2021, 11:16:14 am
Social media and media carry on about the risk of dying directly from an adverse reaction to a vaccination.

I came across an interesting stat today. If you give one million people injections between 200 and 500 people get a staphylococcus infection, about 10% of those getting infections are then at risk of dying. The figures are similar for sepsis, but statistically I do not know how they combine, and it won't be simple addition. Interestingly, the stat doesn't change even if you inject nothing at all, if it's just a needle stick  injury with no substance issued, it's a bit like the old rose thorn story!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 01, 2021, 11:41:14 am
The UK deaths continue but nowhere close to the numbers where they were 6 / 9 months back.

They've done a great job.  Similar to some European countries (Italy / France / Germany)
into bringing the numbers down.

Poland were a major exception but even they seem to be on top of it now.  

Pretty damned resilient.  I never look at simply Terra Australis.  I look at the world.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 01, 2021, 11:44:13 am
The UK deaths continue but nowhere close to the numbers where they were 6 / 9 months back.
Not many COVID-19 deaths coming from vaccinated individuals over the last few months, just a handful that in number which falls within the efficacy claims. The vaccines help many, but they won't help everyone!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 01, 2021, 12:00:05 pm
I know that the data is the data, but the data is somewhat detached from the human experience and we can lose sight of the forest from the trees.

I just got told a story, about a mum aged 40 who had a severe reaction to AZ, where she was on an induced coma in ICU for 3 weeks as a result to bleeding on the brain. 

She is a damned if you do and damned if you don't story as she is also a thyroid cancer sufferer which would make her a high risk to COVID as well.

Thing is, 40 year old, 2 daughters, and is now going to spend the better part of the next 12 months learning to walk, talk and feed herself.

This is the human side to this snakes and ladders coin flip stuff about vaccines, and rightly or wrongly (correlation vs causation is not mine to judge) but 10 days out from the AZ vaccine with constant headaches is a tell that maybe the two are linked, but that's not my expert judgement, nor the point of this post.

Her name is Alyssa.  Her story has been published to a facebook page called Verde Baby.  If its not a true story, then its despicable.  If it is a true story, then it goes back to why some healthy skepticism isn't a problem, and why perhaps when we post on social media about data, numbers, strategy and what not, it all gets a bit lost in the story of the right thing is not necessarily the right thing for everyone.

IF AZ is capable of doing this to a 40 year old then we need to rethink the strategy.  Sure some people are going to say its 1 in how many, but thats one too many via a deliberate strategy for mine.  The risk profile cant be that high, and imagine this lady doesnt pull through, and then her daughters are left without a mother?  COVID may not have actually done that to her (it might have but we cant know any different now).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: sandsmere on July 01, 2021, 12:27:44 pm
I know that the data is the data, but the data is somewhat detached from the human experience and we can lose sight of the forest from the trees.

I just got told a story, about a mum aged 40 who had a severe reaction to AZ, where she was on an induced coma in ICU for 3 weeks as a result to bleeding on the brain. 

She is a damned if you do and damned if you don't story as she is also a thyroid cancer sufferer which would make her a high risk to COVID as well.

Thing is, 40 year old, 2 daughters, and is now going to spend the better part of the next 12 months learning to walk, talk and feed herself.

This is the human side to this snakes and ladders coin flip stuff about vaccines, and rightly or wrongly (correlation vs causation is not mine to judge) but 10 days out from the AZ vaccine with constant headaches is a tell that maybe the two are linked, but that's not my expert judgement, nor the point of this post.

Her name is Alyssa.  Her story has been published to a facebook page called Verde Baby.  If its not a true story, then its despicable.  If it is a true story, then it goes back to why some healthy skepticism isn't a problem, and why perhaps when we post on social media about data, numbers, strategy and what not, it all gets a bit lost in the story of the right thing is not necessarily the right thing for everyone.

IF AZ is capable of doing this to a 40 year old then we need to rethink the strategy.  Sure some people are going to say its 1 in how many, but thats one too many via a deliberate strategy for mine.  The risk profile cant be that high, and imagine this lady doesnt pull through, and then her daughters are left without a mother?  COVID may not have actually done that to her (it might have but we cant know any different now).

Very sad story regarding that lady Thry.

I am due to have the second jab next Tuesday.
I saw my GP last week and asked him some questions about vaccine ( astra zenica ).
He asked me if I drove a car. I said yes and he said that every time I use the car I am around 3000 times more likely to
have a driving accident  than I am having a problem with AZ.

Interisting .
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 01, 2021, 12:32:25 pm
Thryleon, watch out for Facebook and other Social Media “news”. There was a doco about the anti-vaxxers on SBS last night. That detailed how they co-opted he death of a baby to promote their industry. The mother had been sleeping with the baby regularly until she noted it had stopped breathing. Obviously, it would have been tough for the mother to accept a conclusion that her baby had died of SIDS related to co-sleeping. But the anti-vaxxers rode to her rescue, saying the MMR vaccine caused her baby’s death. The mother found solace in her baby becoming the poster child for the anti-vaxxer movement/industry.

Anti-vaxxers are dab hands at using Facebook to run scare campaigns.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 01, 2021, 12:39:50 pm
Here’s an article about such campaigns:
How anti-vaxxers target grieving moms and turn them into crusaders against vaccines (https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/how-anti-vaxxers-target-grieving-moms-turn-them-crusaders-n1057566), NBC.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 01, 2021, 01:00:00 pm
IF AZ is capable of doing this to a 40 year old then we need to rethink the strategy.
Is it though, or is the main problem taking a social media post on face value?

Not wanting to diminish real world side-effects, it seems somewhat arbitrary how they are allocated and goes along political lines as some suggest, the biggest tell is the absence of claims from certain segments which the statistics suggest are equal, some are just not covered by the media / social media.

In the USA under the VAERS system, they uncovered a bunch of infant deaths attributed to Sars-CoV-2 vaccinations, of course infants do not get such vaccinations but that is the problem with voluntary reporting, it's hijacked by bogus content just like social media. These reports are analogous to claiming 5G killed my baby, and in effect they are either a prelude to a spurious compensation claim or the sign of a significantly damaged psyche.

Some humans are just awful awful entities whether it is deliberate or accidental!

The Australian numbers for vaccinations of AZ are as follows, as reported by the head of the AMA;
Quote
Australian Medical Association President Dr Omar Khorshid said AstraZeneca was a safe vaccine.

“No scientists that I’ve heard has said that AstraZeneca is a dangerous vaccine, because, yes, there are serious risks, but they’re one in 40,000. And the death rate [from clotting] in Australia is less than one in two million,” he said.

“The reason [ATAGI changed the advice] is because the benefit side of the equation changes. This idea that there’s so much more risk in vaccinating young people is just not true.”
So in Australia it's 0.5 deaths per million from attributable vaccine side-effects, even better than the UK!

Social media hysteria put into overdrive by a tricky and selective reporting from the professional media.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 01, 2021, 02:10:12 pm
Thryleon, watch out for Facebook and other Social Media “news”. There was a doco about the anti-vaxxers on SBS last night. That detailed how they co-opted he death of a baby to promote their industry. The mother had been sleeping with the baby regularly until she noted it had stopped breathing. Obviously, it would have been tough for the mother to accept a conclusion that her baby had died of SIDS related to co-sleeping. But the anti-vaxxers rode to her rescue, saying the MMR vaccine caused her baby’s death. The mother found solace in her baby becoming the poster child for the anti-vaxxer movement/industry.

Anti-vaxxers are dab hands at using Facebook to run scare campaigns.

When they specifically state northern NSW, John Hunter Hospital, and then post the story about part 1 and 2 on facebook of what happens to Alyssa, I am likely to believe the story.  This wasnt a click bait story.  A friend from high school whom I know personally shared this account, and knows this person through small business largely conducted online.

I am posting this, because like LP is stating about numbers, the statistics show that SOMEONE eventually is a statistic, and that even though the statistic hasn't shown a death, given this lady is a cancer sufferer, will it even show a reaction?  Data is data.  "It doesnt lie" but people can paint whatever story they wish, if the agenda is great enough (such as an Australian Government that has sunk a lot of money in AZ and opted against something different).

If this were a story from the United States, I would be more inclined to simply ignore the story but generally in Australia, this is unusual to see.  Sure, it might be "sponsored" and the timing is significant (NSW going into lockdown as recently as last week and a likely surge in vaccinations) but Im not here to make a judgement about that.

Most of the voices against COVID state that the numbers and data show (same logic applied differently) that Covid only kills the old and the vulnerable.  The Vaccine seems similarly poised to only have an adverse reaction to the vulnerable, and the majority will be fine.  (Note same logic and that irony is not lost on me).

The main difference between them is that one is a deliberate administration.  Covid might not infect everyone.  The Vaccine if administered will cause this reaction.  The numbers ignore this fact.  Its a qualifying statement that is uncomfortable.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 01, 2021, 02:11:33 pm
Is it though, or is the main problem taking a social media post on face value?

Not wanting to diminish real world side-effects, it seems somewhat arbitrary how they are allocated and goes along political lines as some suggest, the biggest tell is the absence of claims from certain segments which the statistics suggest are equal, some are just not covered by the media / social media.

In the USA under the VAERS system, they uncovered a bunch of infant deaths attributed to Sars-CoV-2 vaccinations, of course infants do not get such vaccinations but that is the problem with voluntary reporting, it's hijacked by bogus content just like social media. These reports are analogous to claiming 5G killed my baby, and in effect they are either a prelude to a spurious compensation claim or the sign of a significantly damaged psyche.

Some humans are just awful awful entities whether it is deliberate or accidental!

The Australian numbers for vaccinations of AZ are as follows, as reported by the head of the AMA;So in Australia it's 0.5 deaths per million from attributable vaccine side-effects, even better than the UK!

Social media hysteria put into overdrive by a tricky and selective reporting from the professional media.


Possibly true.

I am not the sole source of knowledge on all things Vaccines, and dont pretend to be.

The hardest part, is pulling apart the various half truths, mis truths and qualifiying arguments to use the statistics.  Like you said the raw data doesnt lie, but if recorded differently, it can tell a different story.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 01, 2021, 02:13:37 pm
Very sad story regarding that lady Thry.

I am due to have the second jab next Tuesday.
I saw my GP last week and asked him some questions about vaccine ( astra zenica ).
He asked me if I drove a car. I said yes and he said that every time I use the car I am around 3000 times more likely to
have a driving accident  than I am having a problem with AZ.

Interisting .

Yes statistically you are more likely to be killed driving a car.

Im no anti vaxxer, Im getting my second pfizer jab on Tuesday and two weeks later, Ill go get my flu vax.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 01, 2021, 02:22:27 pm
Scomo trying to flog the cheaper AstraZ to the U40s because boxes of it are piling up everywhere because no wants it and he didn't order enough Pfizer.
Then wanting to lay the responsibility on GPs to make the call and go against the ATAGI recommendations. You can understand why GPs would be nervous.. If a young person dies on their watch it will be them wearing the responsibility even if Scomos indemnity holds up in court.
GPs have indemnity as I understand. I saw
A dude on TV this morning on the news, he does the commercials about vaccinations. I think is part of the AMA. He said ignore the goose in QLD, talk to your GP, risk is extremely low. I also heard the Epidemiologist lady with funny hair say dont get your info from facebook and forums. I laughed and thought of this joint😂😂
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 01, 2021, 02:26:15 pm
They've ordered many times what they need, they can keep ordering as much as they like but they aren't being supplied, do not get sucked in by the media, Oz is not a priority for Pfizer we are on the long long delivery lead-time.

It's easy to shout wait for the Pfizer, but the reality is we'll have people waiting until they are dead or debilitated.
the army dude said as much, we are competing with the rest of the world for Vaxs and are doing as best we can.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 01, 2021, 02:28:01 pm
@Thryleon‍  I suspect the story you relate is a perfect example of why people must take advice from specialists and not politicians or bureaucrats.

A sad as the events are, if you are a cancer sufferer and in treatment, your risk of a COVID-19 death still probably far outweighs the risk of a vaccine related death.

In this case, @Mav‍ offering his warning about social media is even more relevant, not because in this case it is necessarily malicious, just wrong in the conclusion. If the lady in the high risk category concerned had not been vaccinated, and had then died of getting COVID-19 complications, it is probably the case that some of the family or friends would be blaming the authorities for not making the vaccine available, this is the sad truth.

Humans are very poor at assessing risk.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 01, 2021, 02:40:47 pm
https://verdebaby.com.au/pages/about-us

Alyssa is the lady with the thyroid cancer, who ended up in hospital.

You can shout about the data until the cows come home, this is not a nice story, and if true, is simply a story for people to hear.

The type that the risk assessing folk in government, (who according to LP are human and are very poor at assessing risk) are notching down as 1 in how many LP?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 01, 2021, 02:56:41 pm
I’m sure every case related to adverse reactions and Covid infections is awful.

For instance, here’s one concerning a mother of a 13 year old boy who committed suicide after enduring long-Covid for 13 months: Dawson’s Creek writer Heidi Ferrer takes her own life after battling ‘long COVID’ (https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/dawsons-creek-writer-heidi-ferrer-takes-her-own-life-after-battling-long-covid-c-3150983), 7News.

How bad would it have to be for a mother of a teen to suicide?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 01, 2021, 03:03:00 pm
The type that the risk assessing folk in government, (who according to LP are human and are very poor at assessing risk) are notching down as 1 in how many LP?
@Thryleon‍ Nobody is diminishing the severity of the situation, and how painful this is.

But you write and post like the flipside of this action is a rainbow of happy outcomes, when in reality in some cases there will only be degrees of suffering!

Alysa's case is valid in the context of the warning @Mav‍ offered about social media, it is too easily used and manipulated to discourage people from being vaccinated without discussing the risk of not being vaccinated. These are perfect examples of a logical fallacy / false equivalence.

The flipside of not being vaccinated to reduce the risk of a vaccine side-effect, is not guaranteed long lived happiness, in fact the risk of a bad outcome from not being vaccinated is greater.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 01, 2021, 03:06:14 pm
I’m sure every case related to adverse reactions and Covid infections is awful.

For instance, here’s one concerning a mother of a 13 year old boy who committed suicide after enduring long-Covid for 13 months: Dawson’s Creek writer Heidi Ferrer takes her own life after battling ‘long COVID’ (https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/dawsons-creek-writer-heidi-ferrer-takes-her-own-life-after-battling-long-covid-c-3150983), 7News.

How bad would it have to be for a mother of a teen to suicide?
US Health officials are now saying 30% of all COVID-19 cases, mild, severe or asymptomatic, will experience some form of long COVID-19 illness. It's the big price of not being vaccinated and trying on the naturally earned herd immunity that the media and social media are not discussing.

Some EU block countries that went down the natural herd immunity path, are now heading for a long term national health train wreck. Ironically they have started pumping vaccine into citizens on the premise that giving vaccination after an infection reduces the effects of long Covid-19, but that is unproven. Is that a bet we really want to take while waiting for the gift horse to arrive?

As an aside; Zerafa was right to protect his elderly entourage, Tszyu is the fool manipulating the circumstance, and the NSW Minister who slighted Zerafa for wanting to delay the Newcastle fight until the current COVID situation stabilised is a dead set moron!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 01, 2021, 03:11:31 pm
The hardest pill to swallow are the "health professionals" ... by and large, they're effin' useless.

SA, QLD, VIC, NT, NSW .... rubbish promoted nobodies.  Bitter of me but I don't care
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 01, 2021, 03:15:03 pm
The hardest pill to swallow are the "health professionals" ... by and large, they're effin' useless.

SA, QLD, VIC, NT, NSW .... rubbish promoted nobodies.  Bitter of me but I don't care
I've heard it stated that it is a bit like if your no good with money work in a bank! The assertion being that some Health Bureaucrats are failed researchers or specialists that got out of the hands on stuff and entered administration, the next step for some being entering politics. Note I said "some", it cannot be used to generalise.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 01, 2021, 03:24:37 pm
@Thryleon‍ Nobody is diminishing the severity of the situation, and how painful this is.

But you write and post like the flipside of this action is a rainbow of happy outcomes, when in reality in some cases there will only be degrees of suffering!

Alysa's case is valid in the context of the warning @Mav‍ offered about social media, it is too easily used and manipulated to discourage people from being vaccinated without discussing the risk of not being vaccinated. These are perfect examples of a logical fallacy / false equivalence.

The flipside of not being vaccinated to reduce the risk of a vaccine side-effect, is not guaranteed long lived happiness, in fact the risk of a bad outcome from not being vaccinated is greater.

I dont know if you can prove I have written anything of the sort, but from memory I dont believe i have made that assertion.

If anything the inverse is true and you can apply that one at yourself.  You seem to think that the vaccine movement is fine, and there is not one bad outcome to be had, and that they are statistically outliers.  The thing is, you can manipulate the data to show this, and we both know that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 01, 2021, 03:34:46 pm
I’m sure every case related to adverse reactions and Covid infections is awful.

For instance, here’s one concerning a mother of a 13 year old boy who committed suicide after enduring long-Covid for 13 months: Dawson’s Creek writer Heidi Ferrer takes her own life after battling ‘long COVID’ (https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/dawsons-creek-writer-heidi-ferrer-takes-her-own-life-after-battling-long-covid-c-3150983), 7News.

How bad would it have to be for a mother of a teen to suicide?

Am I discouraging anyone from taking a vaccine and chancing COVID?

I think you will find, that I am looking at AZ here, and sharing one story about someone who is currently a stroke survivor, and who's life will equally debilitated by the adverse reaction she had.

This is to show that AZ potentially does what COVID did to this lady.  Will Pfizer?  Will the numbers show the same thing?  Are the numbers and data and risk assesments regarding these things even remotely the same?   Are the same numbers about the adverse reactions to COVID as reliable as the initial estimates regarding the number of COVID positive patients requiring hospitilisation, requiring ECMO, requiring life support and an ICU bed?

Or, is it possible that all the data is unreliable?

I dont have answers.  I only have questions and like you say, dont believe everything you read on a forum. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 01, 2021, 03:50:13 pm
You seem to think that the vaccine movement is fine, 
 There it is ...............................
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 01, 2021, 05:18:12 pm
^^

Ill show you mine if you show me yours (I have deliberately modified this confirmation to protect my and my employers identity:

CAUTION: This email is from outside of  XXXXXHealth. Only open attachments and click on links that you are expecting.
  

Dear Thryleon,
 
You’ve recently changed your COVID-19 Vaccination booking appointment.
 
Here is your updated bookings.
 
Your appointment summary
 
 
TXXXXXXXXXXXXXs
06-Jul-2021 10:48 AM
XXXXXXX Hospital Pfizer, XXXXXXXXXXXXXX VIC, XXXX.
 
        
 
Your QR Code
 
On the day of your appointment, you should bring this email (on your phone or printed). This may be used to check you in.
 
 
 
 
 
You may be asked to provide proof of identity, occupation or household membership to demonstrate your eligibility before you receive your vaccination.
 
 
Important information about COVID-19 vaccines
 
Based on the latest health advice you will get a COVID-19 vaccine based on your age. If you are 60 years or over you will get the AstraZeneca vaccine. If you are aged under 60 years you will get the Pfizer vaccine. 

You should wait at least 7 days between a dose of the COVID-19 vaccine and a dose of any other vaccine.

You should speak to your doctor if you have questions about your health and COVID-19 vaccines. You can also call the Victorian Coronavirus hotline on 1800 675 398.

You cannot attend a vaccination booking, if within 14 days of your appointment, you or a close contact develop symptoms, are exposed to a possible case of COVID-19, are awaiting a test result or are told to isolate or get tested.

What to bring with you to your appointment?
•   ID such as a passport or drivers licence to show your age.
•   Proof of your eligibility such as an employee ID card, NDIS number, or carers documentation
•   A Medicare card or Individual Healthcare Identifier, if you have one
•   A face mask
Need to change your appointment?
 
Simply log on to the COVID-19 booking portal and click on 'I need to change my vaccine appointment' to make any changes to your booking or call the Victorian Coronavirus hotline on 1800 675 398. If you need an interpreter, call the Victorian Coronavirus Hotline on 1800 675 398 and press 0.
 
Questions?
 
You should speak to your doctor if you have questions about your health and COVID-19 vaccines.
 
For more information on the COVID-19 vaccine rollout in Victoria view the Australian Government's COVID-19 vaccination program website.
 
Thank you for helping keep Victoria COVIDSafe.
 
Regards,
COVID-19 Vaccination Team.
 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 01, 2021, 05:23:01 pm
^^

Ill show you mine if you show me yours (I have deliberately modified this confirmation to protect my and my employers identity:

CAUTION: This email is from outside of  XXXXXHealth. Only open attachments and click on links that you are expecting.
  

Dear Thryleon,
 
You’ve recently changed your COVID-19 Vaccination booking appointment.
 
Here is your updated bookings.
 
Your appointment summary
 
 
TXXXXXXXXXXXXXs
06-Jul-2021 10:48 AM
XXXXXXX Hospital Pfizer, XXXXXXXXXXXXXX VIC, XXXX.
 
        
 
Your QR Code
 
On the day of your appointment, you should bring this email (on your phone or printed). This may be used to check you in.
 
 
 
 
 
You may be asked to provide proof of identity, occupation or household membership to demonstrate your eligibility before you receive your vaccination.
 
 
Important information about COVID-19 vaccines
 
Based on the latest health advice you will get a COVID-19 vaccine based on your age. If you are 60 years or over you will get the AstraZeneca vaccine. If you are aged under 60 years you will get the Pfizer vaccine. 

You should wait at least 7 days between a dose of the COVID-19 vaccine and a dose of any other vaccine.

You should speak to your doctor if you have questions about your health and COVID-19 vaccines. You can also call the Victorian Coronavirus hotline on 1800 675 398.

You cannot attend a vaccination booking, if within 14 days of your appointment, you or a close contact develop symptoms, are exposed to a possible case of COVID-19, are awaiting a test result or are told to isolate or get tested.

What to bring with you to your appointment?
•   ID such as a passport or drivers licence to show your age.
•   Proof of your eligibility such as an employee ID card, NDIS number, or carers documentation
•   A Medicare card or Individual Healthcare Identifier, if you have one
•   A face mask
Need to change your appointment?
 
Simply log on to the COVID-19 booking portal and click on 'I need to change my vaccine appointment' to make any changes to your booking or call the Victorian Coronavirus hotline on 1800 675 398. If you need an interpreter, call the Victorian Coronavirus Hotline on 1800 675 398 and press 0.
 
Questions?
 
You should speak to your doctor if you have questions about your health and COVID-19 vaccines.
 
For more information on the COVID-19 vaccine rollout in Victoria view the Australian Government's COVID-19 vaccination program website.
 
Thank you for helping keep Victoria COVIDSafe.
 
Regards,
COVID-19 Vaccination Team.
 


I got the same shpeel when I booked my AZ. Word for word.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 01, 2021, 05:39:57 pm
Good to see they're changing their language:

Quote
The TGA has received and reviewed 335 reports of deaths in people who have recently been vaccinated and found that two were definitely linked to vaccination.

The other 333 were mere coincidence!

Only an extra 17 dead this week.

https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-01-07-2021
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 01, 2021, 05:40:30 pm
https://au.news.yahoo.com/woman-dies-first-dose-of-astra-zeneca-vaccine-064532651.html?.tsrc=fp_deeplink
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 01, 2021, 06:20:54 pm
@ElwoodBlues1

A lot of "Don't you know who I am?" in that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 01, 2021, 06:37:31 pm
https://au.news.yahoo.com/woman-dies-first-dose-of-astra-zeneca-vaccine-064532651.html?.tsrc=fp_deeplink

...the woman had another very serious and recent underlying health condition, and UK authorities have ordered a post-mortem to assess whether this condition, along with the impact of long plane and car travel from Australia to the UK, had a role in her death...

Serious underlying health issues and boards a long haul flight after AZ vaccination!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 01, 2021, 06:39:47 pm
69 cases of TTS from 4.8M doses. That's pretty low risk IMO. Still limited information coming to us about pre existing illnesses, health status etc. of the unlucky 69. To my reading, those numbers don't indicate that we should forego the vaccine and choose a White King Frappe instead. There's definitely a risk, but there is with anything in life, even the Pfizer. It's a major problem IMO that big numbers of AZ doses are being wasted when way too many in developing countries don't have any vaccines at all.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 01, 2021, 06:57:21 pm
69 cases of TTS from 4.8M doses. That's pretty low risk IMO. Still limited information coming to us about pre existing illnesses, health status etc. of the unlucky 69. To my reading, those numbers don't indicate that we should forego the vaccine and choose a White King Frappe instead. There's definitely a risk, but there is with anything in life, even the Pfizer. It's a major problem IMO that big numbers of AZ doses are being wasted when way too many in developing countries don't have any vaccines at all.

Could not agree more @PaulP :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 01, 2021, 06:57:55 pm

69 cases of TTS from 4.8M doses. That's pretty low risk IMO. Still limited information coming to us about pre existing illnesses, health status etc. of the unlucky 69. To my reading, those numbers don't indicate that we should forego the vaccine and choose a White King Frappe instead. There's definitely a risk, but there is with anything in life, even the Pfizer. It's a major problem IMO that big numbers of AZ doses are being wasted when way too many in developing countries don't have any vaccines at all.
Thats all fine as long as its not you or a loved one who lucks out....my daughters MIL has a clot behind her eye and is partially blind in that eye, she has been told no to any of the available vaccines by her specialist.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 01, 2021, 07:16:29 pm
Thats all fine as long as its not you or a loved one who lucks out....my daughters MIL has a clot behind her eye and is partially blind in that eye, she has been told no to any of the available vaccines by her specialist.

I agree. Nobody wants to admit it, but sometimes in life you get unlucky. I'd be pretty pissed if I or one of my loved ones was one of those 69, but not pissed with the science or the vaccines, just pissed with the firmament, and lucking out big time. The vaccines do way more good than harm, but no doubt there are casualties along the way. I wish it weren't the case.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 01, 2021, 07:54:47 pm
I don't know of anyone who's been turned away from receiving a jab and 25 million doses were ordered in April and May 2021.  So who is this Annandale dickhead?

My wife was told today that they had run out of pfizer so she couldn't get vaccinated.

I'm tipping she wasn't the only one.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 01, 2021, 07:59:17 pm
Reminds me of arguments about compulsory seat belts. Opponents seized on the freak cases where someone not wearing a seat belt was thrown clear of a car that burst into flames after a crash to say that it should be up to each person to weigh the pros and cons.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 01, 2021, 08:26:52 pm
Thats all fine as long as its not you or a loved one who lucks out....my daughters MIL has a clot behind her eye and is partially blind in that eye, she has been told no to any of the available vaccines by her specialist.
All the more reason why the rest of us should be getting the vaccines, to protect people who genuinely cannot!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 01, 2021, 08:30:26 pm
...the woman had another very serious and recent underlying health condition, and UK authorities have ordered a post-mortem to assess whether this condition, along with the impact of long plane and car travel from Australia to the UK, had a role in her death...

Serious underlying health issues and boards a long haul flight after AZ vaccination!
For those who do not travel internationally, passengers do not need a vaccination to die of thrombosis on a international flight, it's a real known risk and high altitude flying is probably the most common cause of DVT other than being bed ridden.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 01, 2021, 08:50:42 pm
Thats all fine as long as its not you or a loved one who lucks out....my daughters MIL has a clot behind her eye and is partially blind in that eye, she has been told no to any of the available vaccines by her specialist.

Don't like to read that @ElwoodBlues1 ... worrying.  My best. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 01, 2021, 09:04:27 pm
I agree. Nobody wants to admit it, but sometimes in life you get unlucky. I'd be pretty pissed if I or one of my loved ones was one of those 69, but not pissed with the science or the vaccines, just pissed with the firmament, and lucking out big time. The vaccines do way more good than harm, but no doubt there are casualties along the way. I wish it weren't the case.
A fair assessment....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 01, 2021, 09:06:26 pm
Reminds me of arguments about compulsory seat belts. Opponents seized on the freak cases where someone not wearing a seat belt was thrown clear of a car that burst into flames after a crash to say that it should be up to each person to weigh the pros and cons.

Yep, 1970.  Sir Arthur Rylah and 1st country in the world to do it. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 01, 2021, 09:10:26 pm
Don't like to read that @ElwoodBlues1 ... worrying.  My best. 
Thanks Cap, she was nearly totally blind in that eye but is on thinners and has regained some of her sight but is seen as a high risk.
She also has a bad cholesterol problem and is intermittent with her medication which is on her but the specialist advice was wait
and see what improvements in the vaccines can be made and they will revisit that advice.
Loves her footy and is a big Saints supporter so she hasnt had much to cheer about of late....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 01, 2021, 09:13:12 pm
Reminds me of arguments about compulsory seat belts. Opponents seized on the freak cases where someone not wearing a seat belt was thrown clear of a car that burst into flames after a crash to say that it should be up to each person to weigh the pros and cons.
My father wrapped his Valiant around a pole (Drivers side) in Brunswick Rd Brunswick just after I was born in 1967. If he was wearing a seatbelt he wouldn't have survived (they found him on the passenger side part of the bench seat). Never stopped him wearing one when it became compulsory.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 01, 2021, 09:14:49 pm
My father wrapped his Valiant around a pole (Drivers side) in Brunswick Rd Brunswick just after I was born in 1967. If he was wearing a seatbelt he wouldn't have survived (they found him on the passenger side part of the bench seat). Never stopped him wearing one when it became compulsory.
 Yep, you can be lucky ........................... and unlucky, as Ben Cousins might say ................... "Such is Life!"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 01, 2021, 09:21:50 pm
Yep, 1970.  Sir Arthur Rylah and 1st country in the world to do it. 
Interesting bloke was Artie Rylah....I remember he was the one to allow Sunday Sport which everyone now takes for granted.
Did a lot of stuff people didnt like too but what he did escapes my memory as I was very young.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 01, 2021, 09:24:59 pm
Interesting bloke was Artie Rylah....I remember he was the one to allow Sunday Sport which everyone now takes for granted.
Did a lot of stuff people didnt like too but what he did escapes my memory as I was very young.
Abolished the Six O'clock Swill didn't he?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 01, 2021, 09:33:05 pm
Thanks Cap, she was nearly totally blind in that eye but is on thinners and has regained some of her sight but is seen as a high risk.
She also has a bad cholesterol problem and is intermittent with her medication which is on her but the specialist advice was wait
and see what improvements in the vaccines can be made and they will revisit that advice.
Loves her footy and is a big Saints supporter so she hasnt had much to cheer about of late....

Is your MIL on statins?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 01, 2021, 09:42:38 pm
Is your MIL on statins?
Not sure would have to ask....its my daughters MIL but I'll find out, problem is she doesnt take her meds regularly and doesnt follow
the diet regime she should. No she isnt over weight either, and is a tall thin lady.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 01, 2021, 09:49:53 pm
Unfortunately, Cooper Ratten is an example of someone who would have benefitted from wearing a seatbelt. A cop who was part of the crew investigating that crash told me it took them some time to find Cooper as he was thrown well clear of the car in long grass. He reckoned if he'd worn a seat belt, he would have lived. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on July 01, 2021, 11:26:32 pm
An interesting study from a couple of months ago:

Quote
People who contract COVID-19 are also 100 times more likely to experience cerebral venous thrombosis (CVT) than the general population, a new pre-print Oxford University study has found.
 
The research, conducted in the wake of numerous high-profile clotting cases linked to people who had received the AstraZeneca vaccine, found around 39 in one million people with COVID are diagnosed with CVT, compared with 0.4 per million people who had not contracted the disease.
 
CVT was also found to be more common among people who received either the Pfizer, Moderna or AstraZeneca COVID vaccines – at a rate of between 4–5 per million – meaning people with coronavirus are between 8–10 times more likely to develop the blood clots than those who have been vaccinated against it.
 
‘There are concerns about possible associations between vaccines and CVT, causing governments and regulators to restrict the use of certain vaccines. Yet, one key question remained unknown: “What is the risk of CVT following a diagnosis of COVID-19?”,’ co-lead author Professor Paul Harrison said.
 
‘We’ve reached two important conclusions. Firstly, COVID-19 markedly increases the risk of CVT, adding to the list of blood clotting problems this infection causes.
 
‘Secondly, the COVID-19 risk is higher than seen with the current vaccines, even for those under 30; something that should be taken into account when considering the balances between risks and benefits for vaccination.’
https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/blood-clots-up-to-10-times-more-common-with-covid
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 02, 2021, 08:28:40 am
My father wrapped his Valiant around a pole (Drivers side) in Brunswick Rd Brunswick just after I was born in 1967. If he was wearing a seatbelt he wouldn't have survived (they found him on the passenger side part of the bench seat). Never stopped him wearing one when it became compulsory.

Glad your dad got out of the accident okay... must have been really travelling to wrap a Valiant around a pole, they were one solid piece of machinery.

Through the 60s us kids were either Ford or Holden... not Baggers, I was a Valiant kid, especially the Valiant S. I convinced dad and mum to get a Valiant Regal in '69. Ripper car. Sorry, I digress...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 02, 2021, 08:31:15 am
Glad your dad got out of the accident okay... must have been really travelling to wrap a Valiant around a pole, they were one solid piece of machinery.

Through the 60s us kids were either Ford or Holden... not Baggers, I was a Valiant kid, especially the Valiant S. I convinced dad and mum to get a Valiant Regal in '69. Ripper car. Sorry, I digress...
Pouring rain, turning a corner, probably too quick and spun. The curse of the Valiant light rear end is what he blamed :D  :D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 02, 2021, 08:55:01 am
Pouring rain, turning a corner, probably too quick and spun. The curse of the Valiant light rear end is what he blamed :D  :D

He's right, they were notoriously light in the rear.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 02, 2021, 09:28:38 am
Gee another long lost memory.  My brother had a push button auto.  AP5?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 02, 2021, 10:14:44 am
He's right, they were notoriously light in the rear.
Yes, my parents had one as well, the rear end was very light for a rear wheel drive with many running the 4L Hemi engine. We had the obligatory Valiant Regal Wagon VF, seat down, dogs, surfboards and kids in the back in those days. They used to come with venetian blinds on the rear windows, the VE had a rear window with a locking winder.

They upgraded a few years later the VH model with the squarish headlight. The VH also had the 4L Hemi engine but a heavier rear end, unbreakable and the transmissions were good too. Reliability became an issue for my mum, because she wanted a new car and dad didn't want to get rid of the Valiant because it just kept on going, the VH had no winder but had a key operated electric rear window, that was notorious for flattening the battery at family picnics and such.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on July 02, 2021, 11:08:25 am
Gee another long lost memory.  My brother had a push button auto.  AP5?

The AP5 was the last model with the push button auto. I bought mine in '64.  I still remember that lovely slant 6 motor. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 02, 2021, 11:19:38 am
The AP5 was the last model with the push button auto. I bought mine in '64.  I still remember that lovely slant 6 motor.
Great motors to work on, so much room under the hood you could almost stand in there with the engine on some models. Now you have to be an octopus just to disconnect a coil.

My uncle had a push button Dodge around that same vintage, late 50s early 60s, owned a fleet of big yank tanks because he could get the whole family crammed in, big catholic families back in those days. My favourite was a De Ville four door hard top, I think it was around a 1960 model, not sure if that one was push button or column shift. I know one of them had a horizontal row of chrome shift buttons on the dash kids just couldn't resist once they had been told don't touch!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 02, 2021, 12:18:09 pm
I think we need to start a thread on early car memories! Sorry to hijack the thread... my first was a Hydromatic Eh Holden, two tone. Killed it in the first month hanging doughnuts in the local park!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 02, 2021, 05:21:50 pm
School friend had a Valiant Pacer with a slant 6 motor, the mounts on the seats failed when he had a slight collision and he got rid of it. Think there was a recall with regard seat mounts not long after, nice looking car though and I guess they would be worth a few bob today with collectors if you had one mothballed in the garage.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 02, 2021, 06:21:34 pm
Unfortunately, Cooper Ratten is an example of someone who would have benefitted from wearing a seatbelt. A cop who was part of the crew investigating that crash told me it took them some time to find Cooper as he was thrown well clear of the car in long grass. He reckoned if he'd worn a seat belt, he would have lived. 
That whole thing happened somewhat near me. A workmate knew one of the others.

I heard that he was thrown 100m from where the car ended up.
Not sure a seat belt would've helped that.

They were supposedly going 140km/h+
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 02, 2021, 06:53:38 pm
Gee another long lost memory.  My brother had a push button auto.  AP5?
My dad had the AP5 Safari Wagon, push button auto blood red with a white roof. The one he wrapped around the pole was a green S Series.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 02, 2021, 06:56:45 pm
Yes, my parents had one as well, the rear end was very light for a rear wheel drive with many running the 4L Hemi engine. We had the obligatory Valiant Regal Wagon VF, seat down, dogs, surfboards and kids in the back in those days. They used to come with venetian blinds on the rear windows, the VE had a rear window with a locking winder.

They upgraded a few years later the VH model with the squarish headlight. The VH also had the 4L Hemi engine but a heavier rear end, unbreakable and the transmissions were good too. Reliability became an issue for my mum, because she wanted a new car and dad didn't want to get rid of the Valiant because it just kept on going, the VH had no winder but had a key operated electric rear window, that was notorious for flattening the battery at family picnics and such.
The last Valiant Dad had was a VJ Regal with a 245 hemi. Unfortunately I ran it off the road near Serpentine, hit a ditch and damaged it beyond repair. It was supposed to be a hand me down to my brother, ooops!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 02, 2021, 09:12:28 pm
That whole thing happened somewhat near me. A workmate knew one of the others.

I heard that he was thrown 100m from where the car ended up.
Not sure a seat belt would've helped that.

They were supposedly going 140km/h+
Just going off what I was told. Remember, though, that the driver was jailed for 5 years, so he survived. And Cooper was in the rear, so I assume there was at least another survivor in the front passenger seat (and there may have been other survivors in the rear with Cooper). I’m guessing the fact he wasn’t wearing a seatbelt may have been the difference.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 03, 2021, 12:44:19 am
The last Valiant Dad had was a VJ Regal with a 245 hemi. Unfortunately I ran it off the road near Serpentine, hit a ditch and damaged it beyond repair. It was supposed to be a hand me down to my brother, ooops!
 I've got a lot of relatives near Serp, good footy club, Loddon Valley League back then.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 03, 2021, 11:27:41 am
So, 35 new cases in NSW, 6 of which aren’t linked. Looks like the lockdown will be extended. But it’s perhaps a lockdown in name only. Apart from certain types of businesses such as hairdressers, it seems just about every business can claim it provides an essential service. And the beaches are packed. It seems that Gladys’ “no lockdown” mantra is now entrenched in Sydney’s psyche.

One of the more bizarre news stories focussed on the arrest of a couple of old hippies running an organic food store. Not only did they refuse to wear masks inside, they banned customers wearing them and warned vaccinated people against entering in order to avoid contamination.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 03, 2021, 11:54:33 am
One of the more bizarre news stories focussed on the arrest of a couple of old hippies running an organic food store. Not only did they refuse to wear masks inside, they banned customers wearing them and warned vaccinated people against entering in order to avoid contamination.
It's mostly just pandering to a demographic for profit, a bit like holistic remedies or homeopathy.

They'll be arrested, released with little fines, and profit even more from the raised profile with a fresh flock of nutters flocking to their café!

In the meantime, Scotty from Marketing is heading down The Way of God's Will!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on July 03, 2021, 02:02:43 pm
So, 35 new cases in NSW, 6 of which aren’t linked. Looks like the lockdown will be extended. But it’s perhaps a lockdown in name only. Apart from certain types of businesses such as hairdressers, it seems just about every business can claim it provides an essential service. And the beaches are packed. It seems that Gladys’ “no lockdown” mantra is now entrenched in Sydney’s psyche.

One of the more bizarre news stories focussed on the arrest of a couple of old hippies running an organic food store. Not only did they refuse to wear masks inside, they banned customers wearing them and warned vaccinated people against entering in order to avoid contamination.

It may be worth noting that Glady faces an election in NSW, whereas Victoria, WA and SA do not.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 03, 2021, 04:14:52 pm
It may be worth noting that Glady faces an election in NSW, whereas Victoria, WA and SA do not.
It's a hell of a bet, it's not a certainty, it's probably at best a bet that is 50/50, and could turn sour!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 03, 2021, 05:12:57 pm
If that newest number doesn't constitute grounds for the continuation of "lockdown" I'm not sure what would.  How airlines are surviving during this chaos is beyond me.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 03, 2021, 05:44:19 pm
If that newest number doesn't constitute grounds for the continuation of "lockdown" I'm not sure what would.  How airlines are surviving during this chaos is beyond me.
Freight, and heaps of it, gouging everybody at every opportunity.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 04, 2021, 01:25:16 pm
I got my second and final covid shot earlier today (Pfizer). Supposedly the next day is when you start feeling side effects, so I'll post back in the next day or two.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on July 04, 2021, 02:18:11 pm
I got my second and final covid shot earlier today (Pfizer). Supposedly the next day is when you start feeling side effects, so I'll post back in the next day or two.

I just want it be said, should the worst be the worst Paul, we love you 👍🏼
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 04, 2021, 02:24:47 pm
I just want it be said, should the worst be the worst Paul, we love you 👍🏼

Thanks, I love you too matey.  :-*
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2021, 10:40:00 am
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/05/why-living-with-covid-would-not-be-the-same-as-flu

The article mainly focusses on the UK, but no doubt has information for everyone.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2021, 10:40:37 am
Oh, and 48 hours after my final jab, no issues or adverse side effects.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 06, 2021, 11:18:37 am
Oh, and 48 hours after my final jab, no issues or adverse side effects.
Good to hear
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2021, 11:19:55 am
Good to hear

Thanks GTC.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 06, 2021, 12:01:44 pm
The article mainly focusses on the UK, but no doubt has information for everyone.
Yes, it exposes the hoax that is contained in the "COVID is just the Flu" messaging propagated by the Anti-Vaxx / Anti-Lockdown movement.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 06, 2021, 12:06:03 pm
As a keen F1 fan I'm somewhat saddened by the pending suspension of the GP, but when you see what is happening in NSW at the moment, then even worse what is happening in Malaysia and Indonesia as countries F1 attendees might transit, it's disheartening but understandable.

Of course this is not just about us here, it's about what teams and media must do to get here, there is a massive difference between quarantine and compliance for a 1hr Inter-EU flight versus a 12hr - 14hr International travel leg.

The high R0 value of the Delta variant makes the next few months even more difficult.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 06, 2021, 01:26:19 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/05/why-living-with-covid-would-not-be-the-same-as-flu

The article mainly focusses on the UK, but no doubt has information for everyone.

What the article fails to mention - or discuss - is that, irrespective of the rate of reproduction (which events both in the UK and here would throw in doubt as to how infectious is actually is), the rates of hospitalisations and deaths are negligible.

Their nice little chart leaves out some key data - here it is, direct from the NHS.

Cases are cases. Clearly the virulence of the Indian strain is remarkably low - as virology 101 would suggest from first principles.

The Delta hype is simply that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 06, 2021, 01:27:55 pm
Yes, it exposes the hoax that is contained in the "COVID is just the Flu" messaging propagated by the Anti-Vaxx / Anti-Lockdown movement.

For most age demographics this virus is far less virulent than a normal season flu.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 06, 2021, 01:55:53 pm
What the article fails to mention - or discuss - is that, irrespective of the rate of reproduction (which events both in the UK and here would throw in doubt as to how infectious is actually is), the rates of hospitalisations and deaths are negligible.
That is perhaps a confusion of the consequences and benefits of vaccination with the fundamental characteristics of the virus.

Regarding virulence:
The R0 is a growth factor, Influenza's R0 is suggested to be 1.3, normal COVID-19 is about R0 of 2.5, the COVID Delta variant R0 is initially showing as 7.0. This is massively different because the reproduction number describes exponential growth.

Influenza R0 = 1.3, after 4 generations the infection count is just 2.8

COVID-19 R0 = 2.0, after 4 generations the infection count is 16

COVID-19 Delta R0 of 7.0, after 4 generations the infection count is 2401

Even if the COVID Delta variant is 100x less lethal than Influenza it works out just as deadly, unfortunately in the real world COVID-19 Delta it is more deadly/lethal than Influenza.

Also, with a higher the R0 a much higher percentage of community resistance must be achieved to reach herd immunity, an R0 of 2.0 requires about 60% resistance, an R0 of 7.0 requires about 90% resistance.

The basic math is why the authorities are crapting themselves about the COVID-19 Delta variant.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2021, 02:09:04 pm
There's not a single thing I've read from any reputable immunologist, epidemiologist, specialist etc. that states the seasonal flu is a bigger issue than covid, or that covid (in whatever variant) is hyped up to be something bigger than it is. Not one. The dangers of covid may not necessarily be that it is "inherently" more dangerous than the flu. It may simply be a bigger problem because we don't have herd immunity, have not built up some kind of antibody resistance, and because of the unavailability (until recently) of any treatment or vaccine. Nevertheless, in the present, it is a way bigger issue than the flu.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 06, 2021, 02:10:01 pm
Covid-19’s Delta variant means it’s ‘absolutely essential’ to protect children from infection, experts say (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-06/children-need-covid-protection-vaccines-experts-say/100269228), ABC.

Seems long-Covid is a major concern. Now, if Covid is just like flu, why haven’t we ever heard about long-flu?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 06, 2021, 04:02:01 pm
Oh, and 48 hours after my final jab, no issues or adverse side effects.

Wrapped to hear that, Pauly.

I had the first AZ recently (at last finished selling PI home and moving), and experienced over the next 24/36 hrs mild flu like symptoms - very mild headache for a few hours, touch of fatigue, bit itchy for a hour or so, injection site mild tenderness/pain and a little toss and turn first night's sleep. No fevers, chills, sweats. Thank the gods, no loss of appetite!!

I found it interesting that everyone else at the clinic, besides me, was actually quite young - under 50s and a few in their 30s.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 06, 2021, 04:06:53 pm
Covid-19’s Delta variant means it’s ‘absolutely essential’ to protect children from infection, experts say (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-06/children-need-covid-protection-vaccines-experts-say/100269228), ABC.

Seems long-Covid is a major concern. Now, if Covid is just like flu, why haven’t we ever heard about long-flu?

Fancy bringing logic and common sense to the argument!! What are you smoking, Wingman MAV?  ;)  ;)  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 06, 2021, 04:07:59 pm
I got my second pfizer jab as expected earlier today.

Ill keep you posted if anything occurs.

From Pauls link:

Quote
But the vaccines do much more to prevent death than transmission of the virus, so cases of Covid are expected to rise for some time yet. The larger the epidemic grows, the more chance the virus has of finding vulnerable people who have not had their shots, or are not sufficiently protected by the vaccine. While the vaccines dramatically weaken the link between cases and deaths, they are unlikely to break it entirely.

My skepticism is more about what happens with or without vaccine and how we really determine the true impact of it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2021, 04:08:12 pm
Wrapped to hear that, Pauly.

I had the first AZ recently (at last finished selling PI home and moving), and experienced over the next 24/36 hrs mild flu like symptoms - very mild headache for a few hours, touch of fatigue, bit itchy for a hour or so, injection site mild tenderness/pain and a little toss and turn first night's sleep. No fevers, chills, sweats. Thank the gods, no loss of appetite!!

I found it interesting that everyone else at the clinic, besides me, was actually quite young - under 50s and a few in their 30s.

Thanks matey. Good to hear your symptoms were on the mild side, and importantly, no effect on your appetite.  :D

 I believe with the AZ, the first shot is the worst wrt symptoms, so you should be good to go with No 2.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 07, 2021, 01:45:47 pm
Interesting to hear that there is now burgeoning evidence for Delta strain that suggests the hospitalisation rate is equally spilt around Under 50s and Over 50s. It's no longer Grandma and Grandpa, now it's sons and daughters.

I suppose we can expect a shift in the blogger dominated professional media.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 07, 2021, 02:25:28 pm
Tough week for the anti-Lockdowners. Gladys extends the NSW lockdown, saying it has been effective in reducing movement around the metro area and has helped to bring exponential spread under control.

Orwell’s Animal Farm offers a way forward when absolute positions need to be watered down. Sure, “All lockdowns are bad” might not work any more. But we can just change it to, ”NSW lockdowns good, Victorian lockdowns bad”.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 07, 2021, 04:10:27 pm
Tough week for the anti-Lockdowners. Gladys extends the NSW lockdown, saying it has been effective in reducing movement around the metro area and has helped to bring exponential spread under control.

Orwell’s Animal Farm offers a way forward when absolute positions need to be watered down. Sure, “All lockdowns are bad” might not work any more. But we can just change it to, ”NSW lockdowns good, Victorian lockdowns bad”.

Well said. Dare I say that had Gladys reacted as VIC did recently that the spread would have been halted sooner? Sheesh, I don't know what came over me to suggest such a thing  ::)  ::)  :-X  Dare I also suggest that had VIC handled our recent outbreak exactly as Gladys has the media, especially News Ltd., would have been rolling out Rita P and Andrew B with scathing opinion pieces. "Oh the hypocrisy," he said, shaking his his head.

When a political ego dictates decisions we get... well, look at NSW.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 07, 2021, 05:18:41 pm
That is perhaps a confusion of the consequences and benefits of vaccination with the fundamental characteristics of the virus.

Regarding virulence:
The R0 is a growth factor, Influenza's R0 is suggested to be 1.3, normal COVID-19 is about R0 of 2.5, the COVID Delta variant R0 is initially showing as 7.0. This is massively different because the reproduction number describes exponential growth.

Influenza R0 = 1.3, after 4 generations the infection count is just 2.8

COVID-19 R0 = 2.0, after 4 generations the infection count is 16

COVID-19 Delta R0 of 7.0, after 4 generations the infection count is 2401

Even if the COVID Delta variant is 100x less lethal than Influenza it works out just as deadly, unfortunately in the real world COVID-19 Delta it is more deadly/lethal than Influenza.

Also, with a higher the R0 a much higher percentage of community resistance must be achieved to reach herd immunity, an R0 of 2.0 requires about 60% resistance, an R0 of 7.0 requires about 90% resistance.

The basic math is why the authorities are crapting themselves about the COVID-19 Delta variant.

Thanks teacher for the maths lesson - you arrogant dill. ROFL.

Basic maths or basic modelling?

Models are a function of GIGO - and that's all we've seen from all and sundry wrt the bug. From that dill at the Imperial College to the buffoons who were modelling here last year - orders of magnitude off reality....

The data doesn't lie - Delta/Indian was in full bloom in UK well before the vaxxing was done to any significant degree - as my charts evidence - and not even a blip. Again, cases mean jack if there is no uptick in hospitalisation or deaths.

It was the cry here - and nada - and guess what a new strain surfaces.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 07, 2021, 05:48:34 pm
Covid-19’s Delta variant means it’s ‘absolutely essential’ to protect children from infection, experts say (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-06/children-need-covid-protection-vaccines-experts-say/100269228), ABC.

Seems long-Covid is a major concern. Now, if Covid is just like flu, why haven’t we ever heard about long-flu?

So give them ivermectin. FMD, a lot of gullible folk here.

As for Mav's anti lockdowners having a hard time.

I've got two young kids, shame on you, you pompous ......

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/mental-health/attempted-suicide-rates-among-victorian-teenagers-soar-by-184-per-cent-in-past-six-months-kids-helpline-reveals/news-story/db9d5136075a7c7edf4750a0391b0653
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 07, 2021, 06:55:09 pm
So give them ivermectin. FMD, a lot of gullible folk here.

As for Mav's anti lockdowners having a hard time.

I've got two young kids, shame on you, you pompous ......

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/mental-health/attempted-suicide-rates-among-victorian-teenagers-soar-by-184-per-cent-in-past-six-months-kids-helpline-reveals/news-story/db9d5136075a7c7edf4750a0391b0653
I mentioned previously that ambo callouts were way up for mental health problems with CoVid mainly and that info was from ambo officers at the coalface and not the govt stats who dont record that type of info unless its a hospital admission..
Hardly an ambo callout for Covid itself though during the peaking months..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 07, 2021, 07:36:43 pm
So give them ivermectin. FMD, a lot of gullible folk here.

As for Mav's anti lockdowners having a hard time.

I've got two young kids, shame on you, you pompous ......

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/mental-health/attempted-suicide-rates-among-victorian-teenagers-soar-by-184-per-cent-in-past-six-months-kids-helpline-reveals/news-story/db9d5136075a7c7edf4750a0391b0653

FB77. How about making a point without resorting to insults and putdowns - they don't strengthen your argument.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 07, 2021, 08:25:54 pm
FB77. How about making a point without resorting to insults and putdowns - they don't strengthen your argument.

Do you ask the same of LP Baggers?

He's as condescending as they come.....

https://www.covidmedicalnetwork.com/media/interviews/asia-pacific-today/vaccine-rollout-must-stop.aspx
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 07, 2021, 08:56:12 pm
I'm not comfortable taking covid advice from a cardiologist.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 07, 2021, 09:08:34 pm
ps I'll apologise, I do get rather emotional when unequivocal data is put up and the likes of LP have nothing to counter it with but do so anyway.

I run three businesses - 1.5 of them have been destroyed by these entirely (aside maybe the first few weeks at the start of this thing last year) pointless, useless, idiotic lockdowns.

I'm ok but I worry for the future of my kids and indeed, this once great State - laid bare by a charlatan.

When the likes of Mav put up stuff suggesting lockdowns are just A ok, i blow smoke.

Never in the history of pandemics have lockdowns been advocated by any public health authority prior to the start of 2020.

For the very reason that the net damage to society and the economy is simply too great. And this was always very well understood and accepted.

And the data clearly shows the flu is a bigger killer than this virus in all the younger age demographics (maybe up to 40 or 45, i can't be bothered digging out the data now). If you don't want to believe that, sobeit. But you're wrong.

For that I'm sorry.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 07, 2021, 09:09:34 pm
I'm not comfortable taking covid advice from a cardiologist.

And bang, limp ad hominem attack.

soft as Paul, real soft.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 07, 2021, 09:19:30 pm
And bang, limp ad hominem attack.

soft as Paul, real soft.

Some of us don't have the time to investigate every garbologist, greengrocer, taxi driver, cardiologist etc., who think they know better than the experts in their field. And very few of us possess your obvious talents for data analysis.

If that makes me an ad hominem attacker, I can live with that.

We're just trying to follow the rules, the expert advice, and do the right thing, to protect ourselves, and protect others. If you believe it's all a hysterical overreaction, that is a matter for you.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 07, 2021, 09:44:25 pm
Do a very simple Google search, " is covid more dangerous than the flu", and see the hits that show up. Here's a very small sample :

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/14/is-covid-more-deadly-and-contagious-than-seasonal-flu

https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=252335

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20201218/covid-19-is-far-more-lethal-damaging-than-flu-data-shows#1

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30527-0/fulltext

It's not correct to assume that damage to economy and society is the reason why lockdowns etc. haven't been used in the past. The Spanish flu killed anywhere between 17 and 100 million people. The standard range is given as 20-50 million. Covid so far has killed 4 million. Maybe the restrictions, in association with other advancements tied to modern society, have actually been useful ? Certainly not without fallout, but useful ?

All global crises, whether they be wars, pandemics, severe economic crashes etc., have significant negative impacts, across the physical, mental, financial and emotional spectrum.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on July 07, 2021, 10:38:49 pm
I'm thinking when it comes to this particular pandemic nobody can be considered an expert.
It moves and changes in mysterious ways and what is expert advice today may not be as expert 6-12 months down the track.

What I do feel is there are some really poor attempts at blame shifting at both the federal and state level by political parties of both persuasions.
I find that really unproductive.
Covering up your own failings by pointing to mistakes or problems at another level of government is pretty transparent.

And it's not only the blame game at governmental level that's distasteful.
There's a nasty side to it to for some (a few) folks.
'Sucked in Victoria' or 'Sucked in NSW'  appears to be the sentiment when  there is a need for a lockdown.
It's almost like they're barracking for a worse result for the other states.
There's obviously an element of "Well, they weren't real sympathetic to our plight when we were struggling", but I suspect that was a perception rather than a reality."
The fact is that most decent people feel for those struggling in lockdown and it's more a case of 'Thank heavens it's not us this time, but it could very well be next time.'

The strange thing about it is... that all Australian states, no matter what party is in power have handled it much better than the majority of countries.
Different states have had different approaches, they've mostly learned from any mistakes and have managed to reel in numbers that in many places continued to spiral out of control.
We've done really well actually, considering it's a situation unlike any we've experienced in our lifetimes and although such a pandemic has been talked about in the past as a possibility amongst the common folk, it's really been the stuff of movies.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 07, 2021, 11:06:29 pm
Just don't excuse that dumb idiot female in Qld.  She's hated for bloody good reason.  Rant over but waiting to be reignited.  Just a quarter moon in a tent cent town.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 08, 2021, 12:28:51 am
So give them ivermectin. FMD, a lot of gullible folk here.

As for Mav's anti lockdowners having a hard time.

I've got two young kids, shame on you, you pompous ......

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/mental-health/attempted-suicide-rates-among-victorian-teenagers-soar-by-184-per-cent-in-past-six-months-kids-helpline-reveals/news-story/db9d5136075a7c7edf4750a0391b0653
You aren’t the only one with kids you contumelious c*#@.

And I don’t have any desire to see mine with long term physical or mental effects following Covid.

Save your snake oil for your own kids.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 08, 2021, 12:47:02 am
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-02/delta-coronavirus-variant-symptoms-vaccines-spread/100255804

Further to Fly's post with his link to the medical expert in the USA, you can form your own opinion on the contents of that interview but this ABC news link above does seem to support at least one aspect of that interview in suggesting that while the Delta variant spreads quicker the first data in a study from the UK is showing the mortality rate lower only 0.3 and the symptoms less severe and more in line with a bad cold. Early days as the article suggest and I'm no medical expert but if that trend continues you would have to question our approach in terms of vaccines/lockdowns and if indeed the virus is starting to mutate itself to a safer livable level. Just read that half the recent deaths in England of Covid19 were people who had been vaccinated. Its confusing with conflicting data/opinions to make informed decisions...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 08, 2021, 08:02:18 am
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-02/delta-coronavirus-variant-symptoms-vaccines-spread/100255804

Further to Fly's post with his link to the medical expert in the USA, you can form your own opinion on the contents of that interview but this ABC news link above does seem to support at least one aspect of that interview in suggesting that while the Delta variant spreads quicker the first data in a study from the UK is showing the mortality rate lower only 0.3 and the symptoms less severe and more in line with a bad cold. Early days as the article suggest and I'm no medical expert but if that trend continues you would have to question our approach in terms of vaccines/lockdowns and if indeed the virus is starting to mutate itself to a safer livable level. Just read that half the recent deaths in England of Covid19 were people who had been vaccinated. Its confusing with conflicting data/opinions to make informed decisions...


It's precisely for these reasons, i.e we still don't know exactly what covid is or what we're dealing with, or how it will pan out, that it's better to be safe than sorry. Being overly cautious is the right approach IMO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 08, 2021, 08:07:42 am
Just read that half the recent deaths in England of Covid19 were people who had been vaccinated.
Last night the UK Health minister announced no deaths of any vaccinated individuals in the last 40 or so COVID-19 deaths.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 08, 2021, 08:17:23 am
Delta variant spreads quicker the first data in a study from the UK is showing the mortality rate lower only 0.3 and the symptoms less severe and more in line with a bad cold.
That's not really true, the Delta R0 is close to 7.0, while the normal COVID-19 R0 is 2.5, these are the base of an exponent n that represents infection cycles, so you know the even if the lethality of Delta is 100x less it would be still equal or more deadly because of the huge number of more people it infects!

R0n if n = 2, then 2.52 = 6.25, the infection grows over six cycles 2.56 approximately as 2.5, 6, 15, 39, 97, 244

R0n if n = 2, then 72 = 49, the infection grows over six cycles 7.06 approximately as 7, 49, 343, 2401, 16807, 117649

The report you reference is really a sly and cynical use of math, sly because reporting a death rate in the absence of a scale is deceptive, cynical because it assumes the listener has no concept of math, exponents and exponential growth, so by reporting small numbers they hope to persuade people for political purposes.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 08, 2021, 08:36:35 am
Some of us don't have the time to investigate every garbologist, greengrocer, taxi driver, cardiologist etc., who think they know better than the experts in their field. And very few of us possess your obvious talents for data analysis.

If that makes me an ad hominem attacker, I can live with that.

We're just trying to follow the rules, the expert advice, and do the right thing, to protect ourselves, and protect others. If you believe it's all a hysterical overreaction, that is a matter for you.

https://www.a4m.com/peter-a-mccullough.html

Oh, a Masters in Public Health.

Which experts are you listening to Paul?

Have you checked their qualifications given.....?


Quote
Some of us don't have time....

Very funny.

Any chance you have a PAYG job Paul, LP?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 08, 2021, 08:40:27 am
All the crazy theories, published political opinions and nutter anti-vaxx conspiracies are undone by the most basic math, no matter what the claim it has to be supported by the available data or else it's simply wrong.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 08, 2021, 08:41:46 am
That's not really true, the Delta R0 is close to 7.0, while the normal COVID-19 R0 is 2.5, these are the base of an exponent n that represents infection cycles, so you know the even if the lethality of Delta is 100x less it would be still equal or more deadly because of the huge number of more people it infects!

R0n if n = 2, then 2.52 = 6.25, the infection grows over six cycles 2.56 approximately as 2.5, 6, 15, 39, 97, 244

R0n if n = 2, then 72 = 49, the infection grows over six cycles 7.06 approximately as 7, 49, 343, 2401, 16807, 117649

The report you reference is really a sly and cynical use of math, sly because reporting a death rate in the absence of a scale is deceptive, cynical because it assumes the listener has no concept of math, exponents and exponential growth, so by reporting small numbers they hope to persuade people for political purposes.


And what is your source for stating an R0 of 7.0?

The rate of reproduction has nothing to do with death numbers LP.

And the proof is in the pudding - you know, actual deaths.

That is where your fear mongering fails entirely.

I've put up the NHS' paper previously, and if you need a hand understanding the data, just ask.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/997418/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_17.pdf

Briefing Paper 16 also very good.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 08, 2021, 08:46:23 am
You aren’t the only one with kids you contumelious c*#@.

And I don’t have any desire to see mine with long term physical or mental effects following Covid.

Save your snake oil for your own kids.

Snake oil?

Because the official narrative is questioned by a lot of very serious, well qualified folk?

Says a lot really - don't tell me you've bought yourself a couple of Brett Sutton pillow slips.

That sounds about right.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on July 08, 2021, 08:51:44 am
4 million deaths now  :(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 08, 2021, 09:07:14 am
This is obviously a very sensitive topic guys but let's try and keep the personal attacks and insults out of it. Thanks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 08, 2021, 09:20:15 am
4 million deaths now  :(

And perhaps a million or so more if China / Nth Korea released their figures.  Not that I'm losing a great deal of sleep over that. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 08, 2021, 09:33:54 am
4 million deaths now  :(

But in light of the fact that 56 million odd folk die each and every year....

And then we have some significant demarcation issues....

According to H. Ealy, M. McEvoy et al

“Had the CDC used its industry standard, Medical Examiners’ and Coroners’ Handbook on Death Registration and Fetal Death Reporting Revision 2003, as it has for all other causes of death for the last 17 years, the COVID-19 fatality count would be approximately 90.2% lower  than it currently is.” (Covid-19: Questionable Policies, Manipulated Rules of Data Collection and Reporting. Is It Safe for Students to Return to School? By H. Ealy, M. McEvoy, and et al., August 09, 2020


The bottom line is that excess deaths simply aren't showing up in the data in most countries.

Make of that what you will.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 08, 2021, 09:47:43 am

And what is your source for stating an R0 of 7.0?

The rate of reproduction has nothing to do with death numbers LP.
The current R0 fundamental estimate for Delta variant is derived from the latest Delta variant data from the UK, it's in the official reports.

The number of deaths is directly related to the reproduction rate(R0) in the most basic way. How R0 can be controlled by vaccines, early detection and effective treatments is a critical factor in reducing overall deaths. At the potential point Delta overwhelms hospitals the concept of control and contain because irrelevant and the R0 reverts to the fundamental rate with less traditional entities like workplaces now vying to issue vaccines.

Boris has taken a very interesting political stance, basically only unvaccinated people are now dying in the UK, and he has a large hold-out in the population refusing to be vaccinated, so he's opened the flood gates. When he did this it seems the vaccine resistance crumbled and the very early figures indicate they have experienced a massive surge in vaccine uptake.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 08, 2021, 09:54:22 am
Very good news overnight for vaccinated females.

Early reports are that female vaccination is safe for women wishing to fall pregnant, and is very likely to be safe for women who are already pregnant, far far safer than risking a bout of COVID-19.

A large UK study of vaccinated women found no transfer of vaccine to the fetus or baby, this finding was as expected because there is no know mechanism for a vaccine to transfer to the fetus or infant from the mother, so the finding confirms the vaccination is functionally safe for pregnant mothers.

Secondarily, there is no detection of the vaccines in mother's milk and there is detection and transfer of antibodies in mother's milk. How infants naturally get immunity to many diseases is by the uptake of antibodies from their mother's milk in the first few weeks of life. This is seriously good news, because it means children born to mother's who have been vaccinated will probably have some level of natural and potentially life long immunity to Sars-CoV-2.

Immunity formed in infants is different to immunity formed in adults, due to changes in how our bodies behave as we age, adult gained immunity is unlikely to be permanent and will require boosters, but infant gained immunity has a very good chance of being some form of life long resistance. I don't know the specifics of how or why it works like this, just that is the way it is.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 08, 2021, 10:06:19 am
But in light of the fact that 56 million odd folk die each and every year....

And then we have some significant demarcation issues....

According to H. Ealy, M. McEvoy et al

The bottom line is that excess deaths simply aren't showing up in the data in most countries.
Brought to you and sponsored by Robert F. Kennedy Jr, aka., the King of Anti-vaxxers, credibility lost!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 08, 2021, 10:11:27 am
Without wanting to say a lot about whats right or wrong, there is a lot of testing of individuals happening who arent actually sick.

If its so dangerous you need to be tested to know you have it, is it even dangerous?

This is hard to quantify too.  People who are positive today in future might experience longevitiy of life issues through other illness and we cant test for that.  It could be nothing or it could be something, but depending on the assumptions made, it skews the data.

Darned if you do, darned if you dont.

Its why I look at both sides of the argument and cant work out what the best course of action is so to see a government erroring on the side of caution is likely a reasonable outcome.  Where it falls flat for mine, is that the response doesnt match the risk, therefore, its a rethink required.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 08, 2021, 10:17:42 am
Where it falls flat for mine, is that the response doesnt match the risk, therefore, its a rethink required.
The real risk is exposed in those countries without a valid response, India, Malaysia, Indonesia, they show the fundamentals.

Here the apparent reduced risk a result of the lockdowns and other measures to restrict the R0, you can't remove those controls and expect the numbers to remain low, the suggestion the response can be scaled back and it'll still be OK is the exact opposite of what the rest of the globe is experiencing.

A massive tell is how quiet some wealthy influential regions have become, in particular some that were initially loudly sceptical and propagated herd immunity as the only solution have almost disappeared from the debate, that is in part because they are now falling like dominoes into the line with the reality of the pandemic situation.

The fundamentals are the same everywhere, restrict or slow the transmission, keep the case numbers low allowing hospitals to deal with he ill in sensible levels and death rates are reduced.

Even in it's heavily vaccinated environment, the UK which has almost 70% of it's population vaccinated, is predicting 50000 Delta variant cases a day in the coming weeks as lockdown is removed. I don't know what that translates to in Australia's environment if you open up and only have 15% of the population vaccinated, but the risk indicates it is potentially devastating for our tiny economy. Interesting too, in the UK the critics are nervous Boris is not accounting for the costs and effects of long COVID in his sums, he just wants the economy back to normal as quickly as possible. If the numbers remain as is, and the Delta variant hits 50,000 cases a day, that's still about 30 to 50 deaths per day in unvaccinated individuals. It's not hard to see what Boris has done, he has basically initiated a get vaccinated or suffer the consequences policy.

Keep in mind, because the Delta variant R0 is much higher, the resistance levels for herd immunity must be greater than 90%, so 70% vaccination doesn't cut it!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 08, 2021, 10:21:13 am
The real risk is exposed in those countries without a valid response, India, Malaysia, Indonesia, they show the fundamentals.

Here the apparent reduced risk a result of the lockdowns and other measures to restrict the R0, you can't remove those controls and expect the numbers to remain low, the suggestion the response can be scaled back and it'll still be OK is the exact opposite of what the rest of the globe is experiencing.

A massive tell is how quiet some wealthy influential regions have become, in particular some that were initially loudly sceptical and propagated herd immunity as the only solution have almost disappeared from the debate, that is in part because they are now falling like dominoes into the line with the reality of the pandemic situation.
That depends on what you want your data to show based on outcomes and then you see a regularly tested rugby players contract torn up for hosting a party at home with a bunch of others that are similarly tested more regularly than the average health care worker.

There is no mandatory testing occurring of staff in Health Care.  None that has been discussed, or that I know of, and I would be one that would be in the gun, because I have travelled frequently from site to site, and between sites during this entire pandemic.

Its a massive tell, that they make up the rules as they go.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 08, 2021, 10:38:38 am
There is no mandatory testing occurring of staff in Health Care.  None that has been discussed, or that I know of, and I would be one that would be in the gun, because I have travelled frequently from site to site, and between sites during this entire pandemic.
Are you asserting you worked in a COVID Ward, or have been exposed to COVID cases, and not been tested?

Isn't one of the fundamental problems with COVID over-running a hospital that fact that staff are forced to isolate compounding the problem of patient ratio even further?

My GP works as an emergency medicine doctor in local hospitals, and also volunteers in COVID wards, when he comes off a rotation he has to isolate and wait for a negative result before he can return to his general practice, it's limited how many regular patients he can see. I presume he isn't being treated differently from the majority.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 08, 2021, 11:07:29 am
Are you asserting you worked in a COVID Ward, or have been exposed to COVID cases, and not been tested?

Isn't one of the fundamental problems with COVID over-running a hospital that fact that staff are forced to isolate compounding the problem of patient ratio even further?

Im not asserting it, I am telling you I have gone into a covid ward on multiple occasions, including SCOVID areas at multiple emergency departments in multiple hospitals and at no time has mandatory testing been discussed at my place of employment.

Not only that, I went in on one occasion not wearing an N95 mask, and was only told once I was in there that I forgot to check my mask.  I went in, didnt get a test, but resolved the issue with the equipment that I was there to check (replaced equipment in the covid ward, and setup a new MFD with fax capabilities) and then walked out.

My GP works as an emergency medicine doctor in local hospitals, and also volunteers in COVID wards, when he comes off a rotation he has to isolate and wait for a negative result before he can return to his general practice, it's limited how many regular patients he can see. I presume he isn't being treated differently from the majority.

Sounds like he is being tested more frequently than staff that work in hospitals.  At my health service, its a way more reactive approach to testing, and most people I know have only been tested reactively and this includes the stores man who delivers to each and every single ward in the hospital.   You know, fluids, bandages, or any other consumables like masks etc.

When I tell you that things are not what you think they are, I can state this with the utmost confidence, because I am exposed to more than the average person.  I am happy to share more details via PM if you wish.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 08, 2021, 11:13:46 am
Just read that half the recent deaths in England of Covid19 were people who had been vaccinated. Its confusing with conflicting data/opinions to make informed decisions...
As I posted a few days ago, this article addresses that observation: The truth about what vaccines are achieving, from a country getting it right (https://amp.smh.com.au/world/europe/the-truth-about-what-vaccines-are-achieving-from-a-country-getting-it-right-20210628-p5852n.html?__twitter_impression=true), SMH.
Quote
Of the 92,000 Delta cases, 1320 people were admitted to hospital. Only 190 had been double vaccinated.

Sadly 117 people died – more than half of whom were partially or fully vaccinated. This sounds worrying but here again another complex story sits behind the headline number.

David Spiegelhalter, the chair of the Winton Centre for Risk and Evidence Communication at Cambridge, and Anthony Masters, a statistical ambassador for the Royal Statistical Society, have a simple explanation for why so many fully vaccinated people died: the vaccines are not perfect and older people will always be at most risk.

“The risk of dying from COVID-19 is extraordinarily dependent on age: it halves for each six to seven year age gap,” they wrote in The Guardian. “This means that someone aged 80 who is fully vaccinated essentially takes on the risk of an unvaccinated person of around 50 – much lower, but still [it’s] not nothing, and so we can expect some deaths.”
Quote
And nobody in England aged under 50 and double jabbed has died from the Delta variant this year.
Unfortunately, vaccinating the elderly doesn’t give them the same immunity as a vaccinated young person.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 08, 2021, 11:17:28 am
@LP I have only been tested twice.  Once at work when I woke up with the sniffles and couldnt conciously answer the question about having no symptoms, and once when I was unwell and couldnt go to work, nor could I go to the doctors without a test.

So I got Covid tested, and that's all she wrote.

My cousin has been tested more times because of his kids being symptomatic (and negative) than I have and he works from home for a telecommunications company.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 08, 2021, 11:19:02 am
2 days after pfizer and I am starting to get the aches and pains of feeling unwell, have become a bit nasily with a tickle in the throat. 

Might not be related.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 08, 2021, 11:25:59 am
You will get tested more if you work at multiple hospitals/clinics my daughter works at one hospital but also does agency work.
Agency staff have to provide regular covid test results to be allowed to work.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 08, 2021, 11:28:15 am
ps I'll apologise, I do get rather emotional when unequivocal data is put up and the likes of LP have nothing to counter it with but do so anyway. Believe me, I do understand passion and very strong emotions, but being too invested in wanting others to accept our viewpoint is a recipe for overwhelming frustration and dis-ease... as the stoics understands, you cannot control what others do and think. You can put your best foot forward with information, and that's it, it helps our sanity to understand that.

I run three businesses - 1.5 of them have been destroyed by these entirely (aside maybe the first few weeks at the start of this thing last year) pointless, useless, idiotic lockdowns. I really empathize with this. And I sincerely feel for you. Losing livelihood/income and watching some dreams vanish is simply awful and creates terrible distress and even loss of hope and is a recipe for mental health issues. Been there, know the sense of loss and how much it hurts. Most of us do need to 'vent' and as part of that we often search for blame.

I'm ok but I worry for the future of my kids and indeed, this once great State - laid bare by a charlatan. I also feel enormous concern for young folks. Imagine being a 3 year old today having to accept that big humans wear masks and then one day they won't... what effect will this have on their emotional development? You've mentioned previously your concern for the the effects of lockdowns on the mental health of many folks (especially businesses). Well, at the risk of sounding tedious, as someone with anxiety and depressive issues, I go through hell at the mention of lockdowns. The feeling of being 'trapped' triggers the PTSD big time, this time last year I sailed very close to my final breath. I get it. And that's where we bump into the mental health stigma big time and the poor understanding, handling and chronic under funding assigned to such a complex but huge reality. Stigma? So many of us, mostly males, deny it until we're finally hit by the severity of a mental health issues and face two choices - admit problem and get help, or escape the pain, permanently. Then, even if many of us admit needing help there are inadequate resources because of national denial, politically, culturally and individually.

This nation and all states are still great. We're still living in one of the best few lands on this ball in the sky. Most of our pollies are doing the best they can with what they know, but their ridiculous ideologies have provided appalling stumbling blocks from which we will learn - hopefully (not holding my breath). All state pollies have done much better than the Federal pollies. Many lessons learned, and it often takes a disaster for we humans to learn/wake up. Those of vision are often ignored until such times... and those of vision you'll find in business, health care and science - not politics.

When the likes of Mav put up stuff suggesting lockdowns are just A ok, i blow smoke. Again, please try not become so invested FB. I saw nothing in anything of any of Wingman Mav's posts to suggest a blaise disregard for those who suffer during a lockdown. He was simply expressing a view regarding the benefits he sees/saw in lockdowns. Many share this view but it does not suggest by implication heartlessness toward those who hurt during lockdowns... to repeat myself.

Never in the history of pandemics have lockdowns been advocated by any public health authority prior to the start of 2020. Perhaps in time we'll learn enough from this pandemic to put strategies in place to prevent such extremes.

For the very reason that the net damage to society and the economy is simply too great. And this was always very well understood and accepted. I reckon many authorities found themselves in a rock/hard place predicament... damned if you do, damned if you don't. But it seems those in charge put human life, death/illness by pandemic, as their number one priority in terms of strategy and action. Hard to argue with the intent.

And the data clearly shows the flu is a bigger killer than this virus in all the younger age demographics (maybe up to 40 or 45, i can't be bothered digging out the data now). If you don't want to believe that, sobeit. But you're wrong. What worries me about this view is are you suggesting to allow C19 to run through the community, unchecked, and to tolerate the deaths, long term illnesses, especially among our aged, infirmed and otherwise immune compromised folks? if so, that would insinuate a survival of the fittest kind of thing? I hope you're not suggesting that would be okay. This new strain, Delta, is apparently harming young folks as well and it would seem lockdowns, for now, are helpful in protecting young and old alike.

After reading this post from you yesterday, I actually felt deeply concerned re the distress your were obviously experiencing and thought long and hard last night and earlier today about how I could possibly offer, anything, to communicate an understanding of your view and worries for your businesses, family and state and perhaps some humble attitudes/ideas on how to deal with them in difficult times. Believe me, I know what it's like. Last year's lockdown had me looking right in the face of total black, a place where there was no tomorrow, where time didn't exist - a place devoid of all hope. I reached out for help, insisted on help, and got it (sorry for the repetition).

Hopefully out of all this we learn not only about pandemics, but also about how significant education re human mental health must be an on-going priority, along with a dramatic increase in resources for this area.

For that I'm sorry.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on July 08, 2021, 12:52:31 pm
That depends on what you want your data to show based on outcomes and then you see a regularly tested rugby players contract torn up for hosting a party at home with a bunch of others that are similarly tested more regularly than the average health care worker.

There is no mandatory testing occurring of staff in Health Care.  None that has been discussed, or that I know of, and I would be one that would be in the gun, because I have travelled frequently from site to site, and between sites during this entire pandemic.

Its a massive tell, that they make up the rules as they go.

My daughter is a health care worker and she has had to test three times (so far) and stay away from work until she got negative results.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 08, 2021, 12:54:53 pm
https://theconversation.com/why-is-delta-such-a-worry-its-more-infectious-probably-causes-more-severe-disease-and-challenges-our-vaccines-163579
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 08, 2021, 01:02:29 pm
My daughter is a health care worker and she has had to test three times (so far) and stay away from work until she got negative results.

So let me change that to "at my organisation".

Is that 3 times in 1.5 years DJC?

I can tell you I too have had testing twice in 1.5 years both times because I was symptomatic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on July 08, 2021, 02:00:46 pm
So let me change that to "at my organisation".

Is that 3 times in 1.5 years DJC?

I can tell you I too have had testing twice in 1.5 years both times because I was symptomatic.

Yes, in 1.5 years Thry.

I haven't had a test because I haven't had a sniffle since the pandemic started ... and I've probably just put the mockers on myself  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 08, 2021, 03:30:33 pm
No matter how bad people think it is under lockdowns, it will eventually be many many times worse under no restrictions at all while we have such low vaccination rates.

Sooner or later those countries with no restrictions get into such bad pandemic situation's they are forced towards even stronger archaic limits on freedom than we have experienced here in Australia.

It's completely ridiculous to think the alternatives are somehow better, because it's an inevitability that it goes bad not just a chance it might.

I have to laugh that many complaining about lockdowns also argue against vaccines, how ironic that they protest against the only true economically viable and fastest way out of the regular lockdowns, vaccines. It makes me think they are disingenuous!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 08, 2021, 03:48:34 pm
LP, I agree. If folks want lockdowns to be a thing of the past, then everybody needs to get vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 08, 2021, 03:53:12 pm
LP, I agree. If folks want lockdowns to be a thing of the past, then everybody needs to get vaccinated.
I feel sorry for them @PaulP, I see the pain first-hand across many businesses and industries, but at the end of the day what they spruik as some sort of totalitarian regime is not much at all.

Not even as oppressive as the war time restrictions our parents or grand-parents suffered. Those generations would surely laugh at our 1st world complaints, then they would get on with what needs to be done to get through it, but they had a perspective of sacrifice as opposed to privilege!

If getting a $10 and 2 second sting in your arm once or twice in a couple of months is all you have to endure to be able to head out and earn a crust to buy yourself a nice steak dinner, life isn't so bad!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 08, 2021, 04:13:22 pm
I often wonder how the News Ltd right leaning boosters reconcile the information they tout and scavenge from News Ltd rags, many times the stories are perspectives of an Andrew Bolt or a Rita Panahi, using questionable sources of information and opinion. We cynics are told they are on the money, and that we who pursue vaccinations and restrictions are the real naivé, 5G and all that other harmful stuff!

Then News Ltd goes and publishes a story like this,
Quote
More men with Covid have erectile dysfunction

Doctors want more studies done to look at the suspected links between Covid-19 and erectile dysfunction as cases rise among men.
News Ltd spent weeks telling you COVID is a con, long COVID a myth, vaccines are death, and lockdowns are about political control, and now they tell you that if you get COVID it's going to be boners begone!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 08, 2021, 04:45:59 pm
I feel sorry for them @PaulP, I see the pain first-hand across many businesses and industries, but at the end of the day what they spruik as some sort of totalitarian regime is not much at all.

Not even as oppressive as the war time restrictions our parents or grand-parents suffered. Those generations would surely laugh at our 1st world complaints, then they would get on with what needs to be done to get through it, but they had a perspective of sacrifice as opposed to privilege!

If getting a $10 and 2 second sting in your arm once or twice in a couple of months is all you have to endure to be able to head out and earn a crust to buy yourself a nice steak dinner, life isn't so bad!
Yep. If you flip the script, conservative heads would explode:
I can just see the freedom-loving right-wingers fighting for those freedoms ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 08, 2021, 05:20:36 pm
Yep. If you flip the script, conservative heads would explode:
  • Individuals have the right to refuse government mandates where they conclude their health may be at risk, no matter how the community might benefit.
  • The Government can’t penalise the individual even if the individual benefits from a free ride on the sacrifice of others.
  • The biggest threat to a person’s health that can be imposed on the individual by the government is to draft that individual and send him or her into combat.
  • An individual should therefore have the right to refuse combat duties.
  • Individuals who are already part of the armed forces should also have the right to refuse to fight given that many who volunteered did so for economic reasons.
I can just see the freedom-loving right-wingers fighting for those freedoms ...

Aint that the truth. Remember Malcolm Moore interviewing Republican Senators, during their pro 'go get 'em' strategies for the Middle East wars, if their sons and daughters were being sent to fight? Crickets and tumbleweeds.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 08, 2021, 05:32:39 pm
LP, I agree. If folks want lockdowns to be a thing of the past, then everybody needs to get vaccinated.

Ditto, Pauly.

I had two chief motivators to getting 'the jab.' 1) Good old Aussie team spirit - all in together to help/support each other in getting this pandemic under control/more manageable  & less threatening to all our lives & 2) To lessen my chances of a potentially severe reaction to C19.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 08, 2021, 06:05:44 pm
Aint that the truth. Remember Malcolm Moore interviewing Republican Senators, during their pro 'go get 'em' strategies for the Middle East wars, if their sons and daughters were being sent to fight? Crickets and tumbleweeds.
Drafts are actually a pretty good way of forcing politicians to confront the possibility of losing loved ones when deciding whether to go to war. If your only son might be drafted and killed, maybe you’ll be less gung-ho about going to war. And the sort of protests that erupted when the draft was used in the Vietnam War is feared.

But that’s only the case when the draft can’t be dodged by the rich and powerful and as we know that’s not the way it works. Trump’s Daddy somehow managed to get a doctor to certify that little Donnie was unfit to serve in Vietnam because of heel spurs. Donnie claimed afterwards they just disappeared on their own even though that’s medically impossible. George Dubya was drafted but his Daddy managed to ensure he saw out his service stateside in the national guard. I’d imagine a lot of draftees who ended up in cushy posts sitting behind a desk had connections.

In Australia, IIRC uni students could defer being drafted and back then uni students paid full fees unless they had scholarships. The rich were well-placed to ensure their dim witted progeny could enrol in someuni course.

The US Supreme Court was recently asked to rule that drafts should apply to both males and females but refused to do so. I’d imagine conservatives weren’t happy with the optics of a High School Prom Queen coming back from a war minus a leg or otherwise disfigured.

During the Gulf Wars, the US was able to avoid a draft by mobilising reservists and former military personnel. Those poor bastards were often from disadvantaged backgrounds and had only been lured into joining to gain access to lower cost education and the like.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on July 08, 2021, 08:24:43 pm
Aren't the US armed services the biggest employer in the country?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 08, 2021, 08:48:05 pm
"I ain't no senator's son"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 08, 2021, 09:06:01 pm
Yep, John Fogarty went mental when Trump played Fortunate Son at his rallies given that it was written about guys like Trump!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 08, 2021, 11:13:43 pm
https://au.news.yahoo.com/third-australian-dies-after-receiving-astra-zeneca-vaccine-091543332.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 08, 2021, 11:25:45 pm
https://au.news.yahoo.com/third-australian-dies-after-receiving-astra-zeneca-vaccine-091543332.html
Very sad that has happened, but it's 3/5,000,000 AZ doses, Covid-19 would be thousands of times worse.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 09, 2021, 12:42:58 am
Very sad that has happened, but it's 3/5,000,000 AZ doses, Covid-19 would be thousands of times worse.
I guess that woman will never know her chances and lucked out.
I'm not sure what the medical/anatomy difference is between a 59 year old qualifying for Pfizer and a 61 year being refused?
Being told to go to your Doctor for advice, being recommended by your Dr to have the Pfizer then rocking up to to a vaccination clinic to be told you dont qualify under the very inadequate and small guidelines and being told you have to have the Astraz regardless of your GP's recommendations. Not sure how the Government expect to reach vaccination targets or gain the trust of the 60 plus age groups to be vaccinated when GPs advice is ignored.
If that woman who died had qualified for the Pfizer she might still be alive......she just got unlucky being born 2 years too early.
How can a Government make that call without a margin of safety in terms of years...


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 09, 2021, 05:22:48 am
You can't cover for every possible eventuality ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 09, 2021, 06:39:03 am
https://au.news.yahoo.com/third-australian-dies-after-receiving-astra-zeneca-vaccine-091543332.html

I'd love to see what the "review" on the deaths of  the other 352 people entailed.

A phone call, a quick text?

Appears a remarkable coincidence....

Quote
Since the beginning of the vaccine rollout to 4 July 2021, over 8.2 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines have been given. The TGA has received and reviewed 355 reports of deaths in people who have recently been vaccinated and found that only three were linked to immunisation.

https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-08-07-2021

Meanwhile, if you doubt the COVID-flu comparison, here's some data:

https://swprs.org/covid-versus-the-flu-revisited/

COVID is very, very much an old person's disease (indeed, arguably, albeit sadly, a nursing home disease) - look at the age of death against the average!

https://swprs.org/studies-on-covid-19-lethality/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 09, 2021, 07:57:24 am
If that woman who died had qualified for the Pfizer she might still be alive......she just got unlucky being born 2 years too early.
How can a Government make that call without a margin of safety in terms of years...
There are 76 AZ thrombosis cases of varying degree, there are exactly 38 Pfizer cases of Myocarditis (Heart Inflammation), about the same number of people are in ICU for both vaccines.

Nobody can argue that Pfizer as the flipside of AZ is greatly better without doing it from some point of ignorance, be it wilful or accidental ignorance.

There was a reason they banned that Publican from giving away drinks with vaccinations, because if they gave away alcohol with vaccinations the statistics suggest far more people would die from an alcohol related incident than from the potential vaccine side-effects. The Publican's heart was in the right place, but he didn't understand the risks. This is a prime example of where people's "common sense" fails and the math just rolls brutally on oblivious to our feelings, our thoughts or our best intentions.

Anyway, some of you might get your wish regarding lockdowns and the experiment of a free running Delta variant, it looks like the NSW Politicians are losing their will and are about to pull the lockdown plug. They've had 40 more cases overnight, and today NSW have sent out the lockdown compliance police, but the backroom guff is the resolve of the backbenchers is failing and Gladys is close to folding.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 09, 2021, 09:02:27 am
Yep, pride goeth before a fall. From “We don’t do lockdowns” to “Ok, we’ll do a half-arsed lockdown” to “Oops, we should have done it sooner and the cat’s out of the bag now”.

Scotty from Marketing is also copping a whack in the media. When Victoria locked down, he was none too impressed and resisted giving a benefit to Melburnians who were out of work and when he did provide one he made it clear that it would be payable only after savings were exhausted. But he was straight on the front foot when NSW locked down, declaring it won’t be asset-tested for Sydneysiders. Some are calling him the PM of NSW.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 09, 2021, 12:37:53 pm
Gladys is primarily sending some scary messaging to the backbenchers today, but I don't think they care, I suspect they are happy to roll the dice to see if they can retain a seat! It's lowest common denominator stuff, and if a few of you die to keep the pigs at the trough, then so be it!

Gladys needs some attitude to pull the white ants into line;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StkasLs-QmE
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 09, 2021, 01:03:11 pm
Here it is, the proof if anyone actually needed it!
Quote
ScoMo backs Melbourne pub’s free post-jab beers

The Prince Alfred Hotel in Port Melbourne announced last week they would offer a free drink to anyone vaccinated at a nearby hub.  Co-owner Tom Streater spruiking the offer on the hotel's facebook page.

Scott Morrison has weighed in after authorities ordered a Melbourne pub to stop offering free pints to patrons after their Covid jab, saying “common sense will prevail”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuxJqIs2a-Y
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on July 09, 2021, 04:49:50 pm
Yep, pride goeth before a fall. From “We don’t do lockdowns” to “Ok, we’ll do a half-arsed lockdown” to “Oops, we should have done it sooner and the cat’s out of the bag now”.

Scotty from Marketing is also copping a whack in the media. When Victoria locked down, he was none too impressed and resisted giving a benefit to Melburnians who were out of work and when he did provide one he made it clear that it would be payable only after savings were exhausted. But he was straight on the front foot when NSW locked down, declaring it won’t be asset-tested for Sydneysiders. Some are calling him the PM of NSW.

Scotty's biggest recent blunder was congratulating Gladys for not imposing a lockdown a day before she announced that folk would have to stay at home.  No wonder he's keeping a very low profile  ::)

More importantly, the documentary "Cracking COVID" will screen on the ABC on Tuesday 13 July at 2030.  After listening to Peter Doherty and Sonya Pemberton on the wireless this arvo, I think that it will be an interesting and enlightening doco.

I should add that Doherty reckons that it's pure luck that NSW hasn’t experienced more COVID breakouts and they will have to impose very tough restrictions if they are to get this one under control.  Too little, too late.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 10, 2021, 11:16:32 am
I'm not a big fan of the term luck, it suggests good luck, bad luck, a coin toss.

If you open up unvaccinated populations COVID-19 running rampant isn't a coin toss, it's not a 50/50 proposition it's a certainty, the only thing random is the when not the if!

All this good luck bad talk makes people think they can be lucky or unlucky with Sars-CoV-2 like a coin toss, nothing is further from the truth! The virus does not care about victims being a mug punter or having punter's lament! To Sars-CoV-2 you are just another puddle of nutrients.

There is no point taking this crap seriously after the fact, it'll be too late for too many.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 10, 2021, 12:13:14 pm
NSW is in serious trouble.  New cases is one thing, ICUs entirely another.  Can't brush that off.

This will be long haul for many many months.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 10, 2021, 02:45:31 pm
Imagine if they’d locked down properly just a week earlier ...

The lethargic response will cost NSW squillions and that’s what will most concern Gladys & Scotty although deaths and hospitalisations will hurt them politically.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 10, 2021, 02:59:18 pm
FMD, it's reported so so differently for NSW, if Dan had acted that slow they would have strung him up!

More female privileges?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 10, 2021, 03:33:13 pm
FMD, it's reported so so differently for NSW, if Dan had acted that slow they would have strung him up!

More female privileges?

Nothing to do with gender IMO. Murdoch right wing media bias. Julia Gillard and Jacinda Ardern prove that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 10, 2021, 03:34:02 pm
Nothing to do with gender IMO. Murdoch right wing media bias. Julia Gillard and Jacinda Ardern prove that.
Nimby?

It's scary to watch.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 10, 2021, 03:50:32 pm
Nimby?

It's scary to watch.

If the Libs were in power in Victoria, you'd get much the same reporting as Gladys IMO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on July 10, 2021, 04:26:34 pm
 
Nothing to do with gender IMO. Murdoch right wing media bias. Julia Gillard and Jacinda Ardern prove that.

Or the fact we had hundreds of cases a day that left 800+ dead.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 10, 2021, 04:51:12 pm

Or the fact we had hundreds of cases a day that left 800+ dead.

This topic has been discussed ad nauseam in this thread. There's nothing I could add to any of that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 11, 2021, 10:32:40 am
NSW COVID-19 outbreak nears 500 cases as state braces for Delta case record (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-11/nsw-covid-19-numbers-set-to-get-worse-today/100283652)
Quote
But Professor Bowtell said these new restrictions were "not enough to turn the rising numbers around".

"They are not like the stage-four restrictions in the gold-standard state for these things, which is Victoria."

Professor Bowtell said case numbers remained high because the initial lockdown was delayed by 10 days and there were two weeks of "lockdown lite".

"This should never have happened, but here we are."

He believes the exponential growth in the number of close contacts, of which there are now more than 14,000, comes back to the fact a lot of retail is still operating.

The Murdoch press must be horrified that someone has dared to describe its prey, the Victorian Govt, as gold standard. After all, it’s only Scotty from Marketing who can give out gold ⭐️ to (Liberal) States.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 11, 2021, 10:58:06 am
NSW COVID-19 outbreak nears 500 cases as state braces for Delta case record (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-11/nsw-covid-19-numbers-set-to-get-worse-today/100283652)
The Murdoch press must be horrified that someone has dared to describe its prey, the Victorian Govt, as gold standard. After all, it’s only Scotty from Marketing who can give out gold ⭐️ to (Liberal) States.


Scotty from Marketing, the Prime Minister of NSW, is in a world poop at moment, not being able to hide from his appalling slo-mo (ScoMo, the slomo?) handling of the vaccine rollout... stroll out, as some have said. To punctuate this Singapore has delayed its lifting of the bubble with Oz owing to... drum roll, slow roll out of vaccines and the situation in NSW.

J Kennedy has a message for you, SloMo...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBTqE2OgMB4
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 11, 2021, 11:11:22 am

Or the fact we had hundreds of cases a day that left 800+ dead.

Can hardly dismiss that horrendous FU when the dust settles
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 11, 2021, 11:32:53 am

Or the fact we had hundreds of cases a day that left 800+ dead.

...and they learnt from it, making appropriate changes. Pity Gladys is too proud to adopt the VIC approach. Pollies and their fragile egos. If ever there was a call for a bipartisan attitude, it's now. The dreadful putdown comments made about Vic only recently by Gladys have back to bite her on the clacker, big time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on July 11, 2021, 11:54:26 am
...and they learnt from it, making appropriate changes. Pity Gladys is too proud to adopt the VIC approach. Pollies and their fragile egos. If ever there was a call for a bipartisan attitude, it's now. The dreadful putdown comments made about Vic only recently by Gladys have back to bite her on the clacker, big time.

Unfortunately you'll need hundreds of people to die to win this argument, hope that doesn't happen and I hope you don't either. We know Mav is barracking hard.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 11, 2021, 12:04:27 pm
77 new cases in NSW, 1 dead (woman in her 90s), if that was in Vic, Dictator Dan would have locked us in our bedrooms for weeks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 11, 2021, 12:30:56 pm
Unfortunately you'll need hundreds of people to die to win this argument, hope that doesn't happen and I hope you don't either. We know Mav is barracking hard.

This is a very poor line of argumentation. You know that covid can spread like wildfire, you know that it only takes a few selfish inconsiderate people to do great damage despite best practice policies from governments. You know that there are many players and stakeholders involved in successful management of something like this. There's no point in giving a blow by blow account of what went down. It's already been covered earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 11, 2021, 12:45:59 pm
77 new cases in NSW, 1 dead (woman in her 90s), if that was in Vic, Dictator Dan would have locked us in our bedrooms for weeks.

Of the 77, only 22 not from existing known sources (presumably already quarantined) or overseas sources (definitely quarantined).

22 not as scary as 77 of course.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 11, 2021, 01:07:56 pm
This is a very poor line of argumentation. You know that covid can spread like wildfire, you know that it only takes a few selfish inconsiderate people to do great damage despite best practice policies from governments. You know that there are many players and stakeholders involved in successful management of something like this. There's no point in giving a blow by blow account of what went down. It's already been covered earlier in this thread.

Do we know that really?

Sure, that is what the media (and even LP) tell us, but what do the numbers tell us?

Yesterday in NSW, in  the midst of the 'hyper contagious' Delta strain, 82 out of 48,754 test came up positive (and I won't revisit the flaws in the PCR test again - https://swprs.org/the-trouble-with-pcr-tests/ - other than to say it appears all States have been running the test at Ct amplification rates far in excess of what is reasonable).

82 of 48,754 = 0.17%

1 old lady died (condolences), but on average 460 odd folk die each and every day in this country. Perspective!

The simple fact is that CV19 is remarkably (far more than flu) targeted to hammer the older age demographics - and no one else - under 50, it's neither here nor there - see chart.

There are presently 112 folk in hospital, 18 in ICU.

Yet in the last bad flu season, 2019, there were 250 odd folk in ICU.

Meanwhile, in the UK, one of the highest vaxx populations, globally, case numbers are exploding - over 30,000 now compared to 600 odd the same time a year ago.

Out of 257 people to die from the DELTA Variant, 92 were unvaxxed,  47 Single vaxxed and 118 Double vaxxed.

Hmmm. Draw your own conclusions.

Over in the US, VAERS reported vaccine related deaths tops 9,000.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 11, 2021, 01:19:08 pm
One thing I do know I'm heartily sick of are the cops and their meaningless threats.  Same old same old every single day.

Many people don't care anymore and won't listen to state governments like they once did.

Or the trumped up "health professionals"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 11, 2021, 01:40:23 pm
The Sars-CoV-2 Delta strain no longer shows a preference for the elderly, with the 50/50 spilt between young and old cases shifted to about 50 years old. Previously it was up at about 65 years old so that is a 15 year shift in the pivot point.

I'm not sure what people think, but if they think people in the 35 to 50 year old bracket are oldies then we are in serious trouble!

Despite the cherry-picked figures reported by some websites, the official UK government figures will tell you death and infection rates for double vaccinated individuals is reduced to at least 1/3rd of single or non-vaccinated.

Using VAERS or the Yellow Card system for data is like asking the Hitler Neo Nazi youth for an unbiased opinion if Judaism, the VAERS and Yellow Card self-reporting systems are broken by self-reporting radicals making those voluntary reporting systems virtually worthless. The only true data is the data coming out of hospitals and ICUs.

There is irony in anti-vaxxers arguing against vaccination based on deaths of double vaccinated patients from the Delta variant, they seem to have arrived at the logic that the virus is so deadly vaccines won't save you, but the also argue against lockdowns, they can't have it both ways.

If vaccines can't help you lockdowns and restrictions will become the norm that is self-evident. If you want to avoid lockdowns get vaccinated, the rate of infection and death drops by 70% which seems somewhat worthwhile!

Delta variant is leaving young people with severe long COVID effects, death is one of those long term effects.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 11, 2021, 02:57:38 pm
The Sars-CoV-2 Delta strain no longer shows a preference for the elderly, with the 50/50 spilt between young and old cases shifted to about 50 years old. Previously it was up at about 65 years old so that is a 15 year shift in the pivot point.

I'm not sure what people think, but if they think people in the 35 to 50 year old bracket are oldies then we are in serious trouble!

Despite the cherry-picked figures reported by some websites, the official UK government figures will tell you death and infection rates for double vaccinated individuals is reduced to at least 1/3rd of single or non-vaccinated.

Using VAERS or the Yellow Card system for data is like asking the Hitler Neo Nazi youth for an unbiased opinion if Judaism, the VAERS and Yellow Card self-reporting systems are broken by self-reporting radicals making those voluntary reporting systems virtually worthless. The only true data is the data coming out of hospitals and ICUs.

There is irony in anti-vaxxers arguing against vaccination based on deaths of double vaccinated patients from the Delta variant, they seem to have arrived at the logic that the virus is so deadly vaccines won't save you, but the also argue against lockdowns, they can't have it both ways.

If vaccines can't help you lockdowns and restrictions will become the norm that is self-evident. If you want to avoid lockdowns get vaccinated, the rate of infection and death drops by 70% which seems somewhat worthwhile!

Delta variant is leaving young people with severe long COVID effects, death is one of those long term effects.

You're conflating.

The reported death number (257) is a system number - nothing to do with VAERS or the like - but of course you know that. Cherry picked? Not at all.

Your Hitler Youth analogy is beyond silly (trying to be polite) and another facile straw man attempt.

As for VAERS, or the EMA or Yellow  Card numbers, of course far from perfect, but are they a legitimate signal?

Of course they are.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 11, 2021, 03:11:21 pm
Some more cherry picking from the UK:

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 11, 2021, 03:30:28 pm
We had hundreds die in Victoria at the peak of the original CoVid19 outbreak and there are conflicting reports of the Delta being more or less deadly and I think its going to be important going forward to see if this version is indeed more deadly or the virus while spreading at a greater rate is killing as many people. Hopefully the mutations will make it weaker and we have less fatalities and learn a bit more, as for Gladys she has been caught on the fence playing popularity politics vs an extreme lockdown.....no real middle ground for her. We can really only judge her when this outbreak is controlled and the number of fatalities.
The difference between her and Dan to me is the lack of ownership from Dan with regard the quarantine debacle where he botched the security and then lied about who was responsible afterwards. But that is old news and I hope the people of NSW dont have the same numbers of fatalities we did, my wife has a lot of her family in NSW and I hope Gladys gets her act together and does a better job than Dan initially did and learns from where we went wrong in Victoria.
Its not a contest we just dont want to see NSW suffer like we did in Victoria and keep their fatalities to a minimum.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 11, 2021, 03:36:59 pm
Some more cherry picking from the UK:
Didn't you tell us Delta variant isn't worth worrying about because it's less lethal?

Could it be your ignoring the increased virulence and choosing the bits and pieces of figures you want to support your argument.

Weren't you arguing the lower fatality of Delta variant meant we could open up, and now you're posting something that tells us it kills more even when they are vaccinated?

Or perhaps I should I just highlight the rather dogdy nature of the linked image as shown below;

 - I didn't know report was spelt with double "P", as in Repport No.8, I'll correct that for the future.

 - Report No.8 was published in Dec 2020, are they predicting the future and quoting figures for future document dates. This seems to be confirmed by the link at the bottom of the image, yet the 3rd line of the charts suggests otherwise, 09/07/2021, innocent mistake or something else?

Figures stripped from various different locations and misused to paint a picture for political purposes I suspect. Looks genuine at first, but is patently a fabrication with just the smallest amount of cross checking exposing the truth about it!

(https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4922.0;attach=1084;image)
The Brits always get their spelling wrong in official docs, and publish a link to current data with a date 8 months in the past. ::)

We understand the pain people suffer, we get that the lockdowns are hurting and the concept of vaccination is scary, we feel sorry for people in this situation on all counts, but sources wilfully lying about or ignoring obvious errors doesn't make things right.

It's absurd to claim or assert the government officials and politicians will stand up in the media and report the exact opposite of what their official reports have published in hard copy. It's career ending behaviour, and It doesn't happen.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 11, 2021, 03:57:38 pm
There aren't any significant policy or leadership differences between NSW and Victoria. They both used hotels for quarantine, they both used private security firms to monitor those hotels. It could have gone t1ts up just as easily in NSW. Most of the Victorian deaths are still aged care related. Dan at the very least tried to be proactive, and get on the front foot to tackle it head on, rather than the wait-and-see approach in NSW.

At any rate, covid is far from over, and in the final analysis it could look very different to what it does now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 11, 2021, 04:09:25 pm
And outright LIED about the offer of the ADF.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 11, 2021, 04:13:09 pm
Unfortunately you'll need hundreds of people to die to win this argument, hope that doesn't happen and I hope you don't either. We know Mav is barracking hard.
Said like someone who believes in magical thinking. Unfortunately, magical thinking counts for diddly-squat. Covid will do whatever it does. If it kills people, it won’t have anything to do with me. And Gladys’ magical thinking won’t protect us any more than Trump’s confident assertions that cases would go down to nothing and Covid would just disappear one day.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 11, 2021, 04:13:14 pm
There aren't any significant policy or leadership differences between NSW and Victoria. They both used hotels for quarantine, they both used private security firms to monitor those hotels. It could have gone t1ts up just as easily in NSW. Most of the Victorian deaths are still aged care related. Dan at the very least tried to be proactive, and get on the front foot to tackle it head on, rather than the wait-and-see approach in NSW.

At any rate, covid is far from over, and in the final analysis it could look very different to what it does now.
The NSW Health department have the learnings from the Vic outbreak and the treatment of Vic patients, so we would hope the outcomes are better, but given the reluctance to force restrictions, or the NSW Public reluctance to comply, it seems the beneficial outcome from that previous experience will be marginal at best. When you read the public commentary in NSW, they still are in denial, it's hard to believe.

Very early in the 1st outbreak, the UK Health Dept publicly stated the biggest problem would be long term compliance of the public, this was their experience from the various wars that imposed restrictions and constraints on the activities of the general public, people can be expected to comply for a few weeks or a couple of months, but after that complacency and wilful disobedience set in.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 11, 2021, 04:19:40 pm
SloMo...
Love it! SloMo’s vaccine strollout (this isn’t a race, after all :) )
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 11, 2021, 04:24:45 pm
If you drill down further and further as you examine the spread of covid, you eventually reach the point where the lack of preparedness in most countries is a result of decades of neoliberal ideology.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 11, 2021, 04:24:58 pm
There aren't any significant policy or leadership differences between NSW and Victoria. They both used hotels for quarantine, they both used private security firms to monitor those hotels. It could have gone t1ts up just as easily in NSW. Most of the Victorian deaths are still aged care related. Dan at the very least tried to be proactive, and get on the front foot to tackle it head on, rather than the wait-and-see approach in NSW.

At any rate, covid is far from over, and in the final analysis it could look very different to what it does now.
I thought NSW utilised Army personal during the first cruise ship outbreak that was offered as opposed to private security.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 11, 2021, 04:25:10 pm
Love it! SloMo’s vaccine strollout (this isn’t a race, after all :) 
Too many politicians live by the mantra if you do nothing you can't be blamed for making a mistake, but this is one case where doing nothing is the biggest mistake of all!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 11, 2021, 04:27:45 pm
If you drill down further and further as you examine the spread of covid, you eventually reach the point where the lack of preparedness in most countries is a result of decades of neoliberal ideology.
And in regard to far more issues than just the pandemic! ;D

Let the bastards be bastards, because bastards do not survive, except they may take a shizen load of the rest of us with them!

Small government should not be conflated with no government.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 11, 2021, 04:43:13 pm
I thought NSW utilised Army personal during the first cruise ship outbreak that was offered as opposed to private security.

Not sure GTC. They probably mixed and matched, maybe the ADF didn't want to do it long term. I can't really remember.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 11, 2021, 04:45:09 pm
Not sure GTC. They probably mixed and matched, maybe the ADF didn't want to do it long term. I can't really remember.
Im only going by recollection, I recall Andrews being criticised for refusing ADF assistance whilst the other states like NSW did accept.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 11, 2021, 04:50:38 pm
Im only going by recollection, I recall Andrews being criticised for refusing ADF assistance whilst the other states like NSW did.

I'm not sure. The offical inquiry into the Victorian government covid response seemed to indicate a communication breakdown and a breakdown in the chain of command wrt to the ADF/no ADF debate. This is one of those things that is drawn along political lines, and i don't really want go there. It just ends up as a to and fro that goes nowhere.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on July 11, 2021, 05:00:23 pm
My son plays footy with a State MP's son, who said  the country wants & needs NSW to sort this out - offered no blame except to say NSW didn't have to learn some of the things that Vic did, which are now causing NSW problems. Also with some population vaccinated (particularly elderly) that will give some protection, so hopefully hospitalisation and death rates are reduced.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 11, 2021, 05:16:28 pm
We had hundreds die in Victoria at the peak of the original CoVid19 outbreak and there are conflicting reports of the Delta being more or less deadly and I think its going to be important going forward to see if this version is indeed more deadly or the virus while spreading at a greater rate is killing as many people. Hopefully the mutations will make it weaker and we have less fatalities and learn a bit more, as for Gladys she has been caught on the fence playing popularity politics vs an extreme lockdown.....no real middle ground for her. We can really only judge her when this outbreak is controlled and the number of fatalities.
The difference between her and Dan to me is the lack of ownership from Dan with regard the quarantine debacle where he botched the security and then lied about who was responsible afterwards. But that is old news and I hope the people of NSW dont have the same numbers of fatalities we did, my wife has a lot of her family in NSW and I hope Gladys gets her act together and does a better job than Dan initially did and learns from where we went wrong in Victoria.
Its not a contest we just dont want to see NSW suffer like we did in Victoria and keep their fatalities to a minimum.

^^^In red.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 11, 2021, 06:11:32 pm
Im only going by recollection, I recall Andrews being criticised for refusing ADF assistance whilst the other states like NSW did accept.

He simply couldn't recall in his testimony ... so of course, not guilty. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 11, 2021, 09:48:13 pm
I'm not sure. The offical inquiry into the Victorian government covid response seemed to indicate a communication breakdown and a breakdown in the chain of command wrt to the ADF/no ADF debate. This is one of those things that is drawn along political lines, and i don't really want go there. It just ends up as a to and fro that goes nowhere.
Communication breakdown, Is that what they call it they days? All that crapfull enquiry uncovered was how rampant amnesia is in the Labour Party. Disgraceful.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 11, 2021, 09:58:14 pm
Communication breakdown, Is that what they call it they days? All that crapfull enquiry uncovered was how rampant amnesia is in the Labour Party. Disgraceful.

Like I said, people see it through party lines. If you're anti-Labor, then it was a farce, cover up etc. He was trying to organise a state-wide covid policy in some crazy time frame (36 hours I think I read somewhere), with Lord knows how many minions to instruct, how many of those that you need to rely on to do their job, how many decisions that need to be signed off etc.

The awful death toll could have easily happened elsewhere.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 11, 2021, 10:06:43 pm
A lot of people love dancing on graves, don’t they? Just watch them get outraged when we criticise Gladys over deaths in NSW. Then they’ll be saying we’re so horrible for dancing on graves.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 12, 2021, 09:13:09 am
Communication breakdown, Is that what they call it they days? All that crapfull enquiry uncovered was how rampant amnesia is in the Labour Party. Disgraceful.

I think you'll find, GTC, good buddy, that convenient amnesia is a pill that most pollies, regardless of being Left or Right or Moderate, take on a daily basis. Along with three other pills - 1) @rse covering, 2) everything is their fault & 3) if anything good happens, it was my doing (and I'll launch a media saturation campaign to ensure you know it).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 12, 2021, 09:51:53 am
Im only going by recollection, I recall Andrews being criticised for refusing ADF assistance whilst the other states like NSW did accept.
For what, from the son of a friend who is in the Armed Services, it seems his highlight experience was mostly forming a guard of honour at politician pressers? And they apparently had a barrage of army staff preparing and delivering meals for over-run volunteers, emptying bins, and even some allegedly weeding gardens. Accepted, it may well be the army decided to do the weeding voluntarily after standing around with feck all to do for days and days on end.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 12, 2021, 10:13:47 am
Interesting times.

A massive Welcome trust multination study has just completed as part of the Recovery Initiative. 45,000+ Sars-CoV-2 infection patients, 184 sites, multiple countries, 4000+ doctors and researchers.

Some key takeaways;
 . Treatments are no replacement for avoiding infection, vaccines are still the best and safest option.
 
 - Aspirin is useless.
 - Hydroxychloroquine is useless.
 - Convalescent Plasma is useless.
 - Azithromycin is useless.
 - Colchicine is useless.
 - Lopinavir-Ritonavir is useless.

 + Dexamethasone helps reduce deaths and aids recovery in up to 1/3rd of hospitalised patients.
 + Regeneron's monoclonal antibody has helped reduce death's in patients that do not have their own immune response.
 + Tocilizumab reduces deaths in patients hospitalised with COVID-19.

The actual results linked here, https://www.recoverytrial.net/results

Some of the lead people involved in this massive study have in the recent weeks been awarded knighthoods, it's estimated the study has saved more than 1 million lives in just a few months.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 12, 2021, 11:27:48 am
112 cases ...

And we find that an infected removalist drove from NSW to Victoria and then SA before returning to Sydney where he tested positive. That’s why I’m looking on in horror and bemusement at what they’re (not) doing in NSW. It’s only a matter of time before they return us to lockdown.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 12, 2021, 11:45:28 am
Correct @Mav .... just our daily diatribe, regardless of government.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 12, 2021, 11:45:32 am
Do we rename her Gladys Burythemall?

Some will call louder than ever for closed borders, but it's probably too little too late, and it looks like permits for work invalidate that effort anyway. The solution was possibly a swift and decisive lockdown, but that opportunity is lost.

Death from Sars-CoV-2 as horrendous and unfortunate that it may be, it is not the real long term cost of this pandemic, and the authorities seem to give little regard to personal or societal cost of surviving with debilitating long term effects.

New studies starting to surface expose long term issues include thrombotic patina(clots in fine capillaries), neurotoxic and cognitive effects and also long term hypoxia(silent hypoxia). One recent study exposed almost 10% of asymptomatic Sars-CoV-2 cases showed signs of reduced grey matter, a sign of asymptomatic hypoxia (silent hypoxia). They don't know yet what will happen to these people long term, it's a bit grim!

There are estimates that in the UK between 3% to 8% of all infection cases, symptomatic or asymptomatic, may eventually leave the workforce and never return to work. The cost is likely to be horrendous and the impact of that on things like national disability schemes will be devastating.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 12, 2021, 12:03:00 pm
Fairfax publish photos of Gladys looking like Darth Vader.
(https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.25%2C$multiply_0.9591%2C$ratio_1.5%2C$width_538%2C$x_257%2C$y_143/t_crop_custom/q_86%2Cf_auto/4505670a401e02fcce0f90a3c671a18de5b8f7d7)
(She'd be well advised to perhaps wear something other than black, and perhaps update the hairstyle before Skywalker arrives!)

News Ltd concentrate on Rudd and Turnbull's "Meddling in the vaccine rollout!"

ScoMo seems to have withered and died on the vine or perhaps while hiding under the bed sheets like Foo, meanwhile the vaccination message disappears behind a phalanx of political headlines.

Our political leadership lacks ............................., that is all I can say about it!

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 12, 2021, 12:09:45 pm
Interesting claim by Raphael Epstein:
Quote
Who is defined as a close contact?

This is a crucial question because so many of the daily new cases in Sydney are out and about while infectious.

From a distance, it looks like NSW is counting close contacts in a way that only catches about a third as many people as the contacts currently tracked by Victoria.

This May, Victoria had over 100 primary contacts for every case. Going on Saturday's count, NSW would have had over 50,000 on that method but it declared only 15,000.

Victoria learnt a hard and bitter lesson. You need to identify not just the "contact", the person who had been to an exposure site.

You need to identify all the contacts of each of those contacts. And then you need to go further to the third ring: the contacts of contacts of contacts. And they all need to be asked to isolate until the closest contact to the initial case has been cleared by a health department.

It was well into November last year before Victoria learnt this lesson.
Four questions NSW needs answers for as its COVID outbreak intensifies (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-12/four-questions-for-nsw-as-its-covid-outbreak-intensifies/100284790), abc.net.au

Is this true? If so, the NSW contact tracing system is hardly the “gold standard”.

If only AFL coaches had been seconded to run the pandemic response across Australia. The AFL is a monkey-see, monkey-do industry. There’s no copyright or patents: if a competitor is doing something right, you copy it. If you don’t know what the secret ingredient is, you poach a coach or player to tell you. But it seems politicians are more worried about maintaining their brand rather than learning from others.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 12, 2021, 12:13:07 pm
Is this true? If so, the NSW contact tracing system is hardly the “gold standard”.
A trick of politics is that you get to choose the tape measure!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 12, 2021, 02:16:20 pm
Along with that bitchy "Queensland hospitals are for Queenslanders" statement, they're all pathetic.  Pay rises in the state.  Flying to Tokyo for absolutely no reason.  Promoting that addle brained fool Young to Governor General.  Seriously sick and backward state.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on July 12, 2021, 02:42:40 pm
Seriously sick and backward state.

...but the weather's pretty good. ;)  :D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 12, 2021, 03:13:48 pm
https://au.news.yahoo.com/woman-dies-after-first-dose-of-astra-zeneca-vaccine-043838472.html?.tsrc=fp_deeplink
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 12, 2021, 08:03:51 pm
https://twitter.com/billshortenmp/status/1414484926078935043?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet (https://twitter.com/billshortenmp/status/1414484926078935043?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet)
(https://twitter.com/billshortenmp/status/1414484926078935043?s=20)
(https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/comments/oilrz7/bill_shorten_calls_the_vaccine_rollout_a_crap/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 12, 2021, 08:21:20 pm
Mav, I assume you check Kevin Rudd's twitter feed from to time ? Worth it IMO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 12, 2021, 08:47:31 pm
I don’t follow any Twitter accounts, Paul. Maybe I should, but life is too short, if not 128 characters short!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 12, 2021, 08:52:58 pm
I don’t follow any Twitter accounts, Paul. Maybe I should, but life is too short, if not 128 characters short!

I find it quite amusing / useful to check Rudd's tweets every once in a while. I reckon I'd spend about 5 minutes every week.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 13, 2021, 10:15:53 am
It is interesting to hear the debate around the "shock" ads being used in NSW, with health experts feeling the Ad undermines their professionalism and ethics.

I suppose the problem is that the Ad isn't there to compete with reality, it has to compete with the vaccine far mongering and false remedy dawns offered by Facebook, Youtube, Instagram and Pete Evans.

I appreciate two wrongs do not make a right, I can't see a quick way out of this!

I feel they could just as easily report some of the occasional but real world long COVID-19 effects, droopy dicks, ovarian adhesions, partial blindness, paraplegia, quadriplegia, etc., etc..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 13, 2021, 11:30:01 am
It is interesting to hear the debate around the "shock" ads being used in NSW, with health experts feeling the Ad undermines their professionalism and ethics.

I suppose the problem is that the Ad isn't there to compete with reality, it has to compete with the vaccine far mongering and false remedy dawns offered by Facebook, Youtube, Instagram and Pete Evans.

I appreciate two wrongs do not make a right, I can't see a quick way out of this!

I feel they could just as easily report some of the occasional but real world long COVID-19 effects, droopy dicks, ovarian adhesions, partial blindness, paraplegia, quadriplegia, etc., etc..
Bit hard to sell Astraz when the scoreline is three dead from the vaccine and one death(90 year old) from Delta in Aus.....
I know of one Primary school where the staff want to be vaccinated but have refused the AstraZ on mass and want the Pfizer.
Vaccination levels in Australia will only improve when we have more Pfizer and the Astraz is scrapped.....
They can run all the ads they like but the people have spoken and ScoMo and crew need to listen.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 13, 2021, 11:55:16 am
Bit hard to sell Astraz when the scoreline is three dead from the vaccine and one death(90 year old) from Delta in Aus.....
I know of one Primary school where the staff want to be vaccinated but have refused the AstraZ on mass and want the Pfizer.
Vaccination levels in Australia will only improve when we have more Pfizer and the Astraz is scrapped.....
They can run all the ads they like but the people have spoken and ScoMo and crew need to listen.
The number of people in ICU from AZ and Pfizer apparently remains roughly the same, not sure what the long term outcome is going to be for people with severe myocarditis.

The public pick up on AZ, because that is what gets reported, and because there is a way to test for a potential link. The problem with myocarditis is that there is no trace showing up in the tests that links it to mRNA vaccine, so people could well be dying from Pfizer related myocarditis but it won't be reported as either possible or confirmed.

But the truth of all vaccines isn't the number of vaccine side-effect deaths, it's the number of lives saved by vaccines.

If you give the same number of people a pot of beer that you give a vaccination, in this case nearly 6M now, apparently there will be roughly 100x more deaths from the beers than there would be from vaccine side-effects. That's 300 alcohol deaths versus 3 vaccine deaths that we know of.

In NSW a leading ICU Dept head was queried last night on the ABC about how many of the people in NSW ICU had been vaccinated or double vaccinated, the reporter was trying to paint a picture that vaccination wasn't safe or was somehow questionable or ineffective, I presume to play up on fears of people.

The answer of how many of those in NSW ICU were COVID-19 patients with single or double vaccination, .................. zero!

There is no need for big men to be scared of a little needle, and the bad outcomes are really just very unfortunate.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 13, 2021, 12:18:16 pm
Most people would rather take their chances with Imflamation of the heart than Blood Clots. Scomo telling folk to get the 2nd jab at the 6-8 week is another debacle.. Less Protection and now news it might require a booster 3rd jab.
The term "unfortunate" is an easy way of saying as long as its not my family its OK to
lose a few people to friendly fire.. The short term affect from serious blood clots is usually death.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 13, 2021, 12:23:10 pm
Most people would rather take their chances with Imflamation of the heart than Blood Clots. Scomo telling folk to get the 2nd jab at the 6-8 week is another debacle.. Less Protection and now news it might require a booster 3rd jab.
The term "unfortunate" is an easy way of saying as long as its not my family its OK to
lose a few people to friendly fire.. The short term affect from serious blood clots is usually death.
A teenage mother in my family died from heart inflammation, the idea myocarditis it somehow worth a chance is ridiculous, it's equally deadly to all age groups.

The assertion in the last sentence above is pretty offensive, you should remove it from your post, it's beneath your usual standards.

If a female in your family gets COVID-19, they have a 30% chance they get long COVID-19, myocarditis and thrombosis are known common symptoms of COVID-19 infections for both severe COVID cases and as a long symptom in mild COVID cases. That's 30% of total infections not just 30% of severe cases.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 13, 2021, 12:43:42 pm
A teenage mother in my family died from heart inflammation, the idea myocarditis it somehow worth a chance is ridiculous, it's equally deadly to all age groups.

The assertion in the last sentence above is pretty offensive, you should remove it from your post, it's beneath your usual standards.

If a female in your family gets COVID-19, they have a 30% chance they get long COVID-19, myocarditis and thrombosis are known common symptoms of COVID-19 infections for both severe COVID cases and as a long symptom in mild COVID cases. That's 30% of total infections not just 30% of severe cases.
Its not offensive and flippant you term folk who have passed way through AstraZ unfortunate?
If the 70 year old in SA who had just died had been given the PFizer she would still be alive...
If the Mods have an issue with my post they can remove it ...you are welcome to ask them to do so if you remain offended.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 13, 2021, 12:51:07 pm
Nobody diminishes the seriousness of the situation.

As I have explained here more than once before before I avoid the term luck because people read bad or good luck as being the natural alternative of each case, that's dumb punter think.

The truth is there is no "good luck" in this pandemic situation, there is only varying degrees of bad luck, the vaccine greatly(massively beyond any possible question) diminish your chance of misfortune.

Get Sars-CoV- 2 as a bit of "bad luck" and your luck isn't going to turn, there will only be varying degrees of how bad it gets!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 13, 2021, 12:55:17 pm
So. it looks like EB believes we should maintain the elimination strategy forever with periodic lockdowns, masks, density limits and the like. Otherwise he wouldn't be citing death statistics that pertain to that strategy. If we decided to release the Kraken and decided to live with Covid in the community, we wouldn't be talking about a handful of deaths: we'd be talking about hundreds or thousands.

I want to see the end of the elimination strategy but we can only do that ethically when we have 60% or more vaccinated. The botched vaccination rollout is holding us all hostage. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 13, 2021, 12:57:27 pm
I want to see the end of the elimination strategy but we can only do that ethically when we have 60% or more vaccinated. The botched vaccination rollout is holding us all hostage.
This is so true, it's self-evident in the numbers appearing globally.

But I'd assert based on the latest figures, it now looks like the immunity levels will need to be in the 80% plus range, this is partly due to the apparent reduced efficacy against Delta strain, and partly due to the failing community tolerance for compliance.

Let's hope the updated vaccines being tested now improve the efficacy against both Alpha and Delta.

I heard an epidemiologist on a podcast last night make a very valid point last night regarding letting COVID run free, this will greatly accelerate the production of variants and that could well create a variant that our vaccines have zero efficacy against. He stated it's not a case of trying one direction then if it doesn't work going back to the old way, when you make one choice you might remove the other.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 13, 2021, 01:12:51 pm
I'm yet to hear about a 2nd jab being a different vacc from the first.  Wonder what the implications of that might be. Some suggest it's quite effective.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 13, 2021, 02:01:37 pm
So. it looks like EB believes we should maintain the elimination strategy forever with periodic lockdowns, masks, density limits and the like. Otherwise he wouldn't be citing death statistics that pertain to that strategy. If we decided to release the Kraken and decided to live with Covid in the community, we wouldn't be talking about a handful of deaths: we'd be talking about hundreds or thousands.

I want to see the end of the elimination strategy but we can only do that ethically when we have 60% or more vaccinated. The botched vaccination rollout is holding us all hostage. 
My preference is no elimination strategy either with safe vaccines on the proviso we are not needlessly eliminating the public in the process.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 13, 2021, 02:14:30 pm
This is an argument that is muddled and not really conducted on meaningful grounds. You can be quite certain that there will be deaths associated with Pfizer (there probably already are) and with any future vaccines. This is beyond doubt. So do we ban all vaccines which cause a death ? If not, what is the tipping point between acceptable and unacceptable death rates ? 1 dead, 20 dead, 100 ? Is 1 life worth less than 100 ? Is that a fair or sensible way of looking at it ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 13, 2021, 02:14:35 pm
Maybe we should ban elective surgery - no surgery is completely safe. It’d knock heaps off the budget bottom line.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 13, 2021, 02:20:33 pm
Covid killed a man in his 70s in NSW today. Deaths are a lagging indicator, occurring a couple of weeks after infection. As yesterday had 112 new cases, the chances are there will be more deaths in the next few weeks. Fingers crossed we beat the odds.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 13, 2021, 02:58:50 pm
This is an argument that is muddled and not really conducted on meaningful grounds. You can be quite certain that there will be deaths associated with Pfizer (there probably already are) and with any future vaccines. This is beyond doubt. So do we ban all vaccines which cause a death ? If not, what is the tipping point between acceptable and unacceptable death rates ? 1 dead, 20 dead, 100 ? Is 1 life worth less than 100 ? Is that a fair or sensible way of looking at it ?
@PaulP‍ what would be the death rate of 6M needle stick injuries?

The hysteria is caused by the media's heavily biased reporting.

Further the deaths are not trivial or incidental as vaccine opponents like to try and make out, somewhat ironically given the heavy focus of those issuing vaccines is to save lives at all cost.

Those front line in the vaccination effort are running themselves into the ground trying to save the public from it's indifference and it's ignorance!

One wonders how quickly wars would evaporate if only over 50s could be conscripted, enlisted and sent off to battle with the officer class?

Don't vaccinate my little girl I can protect her, but God help you if she gets COVID because I'll bring hell upon you all for doing this to her! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 13, 2021, 03:02:41 pm
Interesting comparison: the risk of dying from general anaesthetic seems to be somewhere between 4 and 33 per million. That risk doesn’t seem to scare anyone off surgery.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 13, 2021, 03:03:45 pm
Interesting comparison: the risk of dying from general anaesthetic seems to be somewhere between 4 and 33 per million. That risk doesn’t seem to scare anyone off surgery.
Nose job or bigger tits anyone, some expensive pearly whites?

Imagine that death rate if you include the implants, how many of those nurses who tell you the vaccine kills have some of those? :o

My GP wouldn't remove a mole in my hair line a few weeks back, because he thought it wasn't anything important to worry about and even seemingly trivial unnecessary surgery is apparently dangerous. He must have been thinking about risk vs benefit! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 13, 2021, 05:09:58 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jul/13/delta-surge-could-leave-hundreds-of-thousands-with-long-covid
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 13, 2021, 06:32:31 pm
https://theconversation.com/no-we-cant-treat-covid-19-like-the-flu-we-have-to-consider-the-lasting-health-problems-it-causes-164072
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on July 13, 2021, 06:55:48 pm
Covid killed a man in his 70s in NSW today. Deaths are a lagging indicator, occurring a couple of weeks after infection. As yesterday had 112 new cases, the chances are there will be more deaths in the next few weeks. Fingers crossed we beat the odds.

Are Covid deaths more important then those related to mental health which have skyrocketed?

The over reaction and over the top scare tactics of the media and pollies is causing more damage in society then Covid IMO. This virus has a 99% cure rate amongst all those except the elderly or sick so no doubt protect all those in that bracket but let the the bulk go about their business and try and lead some sort of a normal 'happy' life.

I can't listen to the news anymore as its the same depressing, negative scare mongering BS every time.  How are we supposed to get the young motivated and mentally well when we surround these poor people with such an overload of negative news. Every single article is written like the world is about to end. 

I mean there has been no covid death in Victoria for over a year we have had no case in the community for weeks yet we are still made to wear masks when we go to a shopping centre. Why?  I know many will think what's the big deal but some cant handle these sorts of restrictions on their life- fair enough if its is out of control and rampant but surely these sorts of restrictions are not needed now. Let folk enjoy a normal life and stop with the over the top restrictions that slowly slowly society is becoming immune to having them remain. How sad is this and how much is this affected the young man and women in our country. 

The increased suicide rate is not even remotely discussed enough as they are too busy quoting exposure sites -the waste of young lives is just so sad and the effect on the poor suffering families left behind is a far bigger issue imo and is hardly ever considered as the media and pollies refuse to acknowledge it. Talk to any ambo and they will tell you straight up how bad it is at the moment.    
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 13, 2021, 07:00:30 pm
I wonder whether losing a friend or family member to Covid improves one’s mental health. And what about those who have battled long-Covid for 13 months only to give up and commit suicide? Wonder whether their friends and family are affected ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on July 13, 2021, 08:43:29 pm
I wonder whether losing a friend or family member to Covid improves one’s mental health. And what about those who have battled long-Covid for 13 months only to give up and commit suicide? Wonder whether their friends and family are affected ...

Pls don’t tell me you’re implying that the soaring mental illness and suicide figures are are due to covid deaths or long term covid illness. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 13, 2021, 08:54:34 pm
Pls don't tell me you're implying the friends and family of the 800 who died from Covid suffered no negative mental health effects.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 13, 2021, 09:20:28 pm
By the way, I just checked up on the suicide data for Victoria. In 2019 when Victorians were blissfully ignorant of Covid, the total was 718. In 2020 after lockdowns and restrictions and the mayhem wreaked by Covid, the total was 698. Hmmm ... a drop of 20.

No doubt there has been an increase in calls to mental helplines. But was this due to the mayhem wreaked by Covid or the effects of lockdowns and other restrictions? No matter how we responded to it, Covid was always going to negatively affect us psychologically and economically.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 13, 2021, 09:27:06 pm
By the way, I just checked up on the suicide data for Victoria. In 2019 when Victorians were blissfully ignorant of Covid, the total was 718. In 2020 after lockdowns and restrictions and the mayhem wreaked by Covid, the total was 698. Hmmm ... a drop of 20.

No doubt there has been an increase in calls to mental helplines. But was this due to the mayhem wreaked by Covid or the effects of lockdowns and other restrictions? No matter how we responded to it, Covid was always going to negatively affect us psychologically and economically.

Yes, reported here :

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/suicides-in-victoria-dip-despite-fears-pandemic-would-drive-increase-20210118-p56uwp.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 13, 2021, 10:58:51 pm
Are Covid deaths more important then those related to mental health which have skyrocketed?
OK, so now I have to ask, where did this come from?

It's fair to ask, as the source matters greatly, it tells us who and what to trust.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on July 13, 2021, 11:04:54 pm
Bit hard to sell Astraz when the scoreline is three dead from the vaccine and one death(90 year old) from Delta in Aus.....
I know of one Primary school where the staff want to be vaccinated but have refused the AstraZ on mass and want the Pfizer.
Vaccination levels in Australia will only improve when we have more Pfizer and the Astraz is scrapped.....
They can run all the ads they like but the people have spoken and ScoMo and crew need to listen.


Two confirmed deaths from 5 million AstraZeneca jabs EB.  The COVID case fatality rate in Australia is around 2.9%.

Reluctance to get the AstraZeneca vaccine is based on media hysteria, a vacillating government and anti-vaxxer lies rather than any real health risk.

I'm looking forward to getting my second AstraZeneca jab on Friday  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 14, 2021, 12:22:21 am
OK, so now I have to ask, where did this come from?

It's fair to ask, as the source matters greatly, it tells us who and what to trust.
As I said previously mental health calls as ambulance call outs only get registered if there is a hospital admission.....there was a 40% increase in calls to mental health agencies in 2020. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 14, 2021, 12:30:01 am
As I said previously mental health calls as ambulance calls outs only get registered if there is a hospital admission.....
Shawny was posting about deaths.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 14, 2021, 12:40:46 am
Shawny was posting about deaths.
I think we have to distinguish between attempts and deaths.......20 less deaths doesnt mean more attempts.
This link might show more what Shawny is alluding too with regards mental health and Covid.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-25/one-in-10-victorians-considered-suicide-in-2020-research-finds/100242310
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 14, 2021, 07:56:17 am
I think we have to distinguish between attempts and deaths.......20 less deaths doesnt mean more attempts.
This link might show more what Shawny is alluding too with regards mental health and Covid.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-25/one-in-10-victorians-considered-suicide-in-2020-research-finds/100242310
I doubt it means anything but less.

That linked article gives you no baselines, you can't tell if it's a rise, fall or flat.

When the deaths are counted in the many hundreds, for a process that has a relative low completion rate, you aren't going to see a sudden statistical shift in the percentages. If only 1:10 attempts are successful, and my understanding is that is roughly the figure, and there is a drop in deaths by 40 or 50 doesn't that mean by association hundreds of less attempts?

The various groups debating working from office or home are telling us the bulk of employees are happier now they aren't in the office 5 days a week. One large organisation I deal with are telling me productivity is up, the only people unhappy, the ones losing out are the corporate psychopaths who have lost their overview of staff.

I'm not sure what to think, I accept it's way way more complex than our simple analysis can surmise, but the numbers do not lie.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 14, 2021, 08:49:14 am
The correct approach is to provide proper resources and support services for the most vulnerable and those most at risk. The correct approach is not to let people run free, because those support services aren't there. If we hadn't had decades of penny pinching scoundrels running the show and worshipping the almighty bottom line, this wouldn't be an issue.

The focus should not be on whether lockdowns are creating an increased risk, the focus should be on why around 700 Victorians take their own life, even before covid. Lockdowns are an evil because they present an increased risk ? What about the myriad of other evils and failings that give rise to so many tragic deaths ? Why aren't we capable of producing children that develop into fully functional, fully developed adults, physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually whole ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 14, 2021, 08:54:56 am
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/mental-health/attempted-suicide-rates-among-victorian-teenagers-soar-by-184-per-cent-in-past-six-months-kids-helpline-reveals/news-story/db9d5136075a7c7edf4750a0391b0653

You should read the whole story to get a fuller picture, but a fair whack of those calls to the helpline are from kids in abusive households.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on July 14, 2021, 09:04:47 am
Pls don't tell me you're implying the friends and family of the 800 who died from Covid suffered no negative mental health effects.

Of course I'm not but im also not agreeing that COVID deaths or illnesses in this country are a big cause to MH issues.  Anyhow each to their own on that point as its impossible to factual about it.

My point in my original post was meant to be directed to the issues or by product of how Covid is dealt with and that IMO restrictions would be much better handled if they were directed at the sick and the elderly who are the main group at danger here instead of a blanket restriction which is having a much bigger effect on the young then the risks this particular virus itself has on those in the other group.

The effect on our youth is profound with the way this is being handled and frustratingly its generally glossed over. As I said all the media talk is over dramatized, all negative, scary and bloody depressing for those who don't battle MH yet there is no stopping or pulling back by anyone regardless of how the pandemic is tracking at a particular time. Even when we seem to get on top of an outbreak instead of maybe talking about something else they will find a 'possible exposure site' to spread fear and make those thinking we can get on with a normal life back to worrying again.

Its way over the top and can be reduced or balanced without it affecting the Covid plan but may very well help those young in our community that are really doing it tough.

Im not going to go into details as its too personal but i can assure you i am speaking from personal experience with this one.      
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on July 14, 2021, 09:07:15 am
Limit your media exposure.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 14, 2021, 09:18:07 am
I doubt it means anything but less.

That linked article gives you no baselines, you can't tell if it's a rise, fall or flat.

When the deaths are counted in the many hundreds, for a process that has a relative low completion rate, you aren't going to see a sudden statistical shift in the percentages. If only 1:10 attempts are successful, and my understanding is that is roughly the figure, and there is a drop in deaths by 40 or 50 doesn't that mean by association hundreds of less attempts?

The various groups debating working from office or home are telling us the bulk of employees are happier now they aren't in the office 5 days a week. One large organisation I deal with are telling me productivity is up, the only people unhappy, the ones losing out are the corporate psychopaths who have lost their overview of staff.

I'm not sure what to think, I accept it's way way more complex than our simple analysis can surmise, but the numbers do not lie.

Well said, Oh Spotted One.

Commenting on suicide, attempted, contemplated or otherwise, is a tricky business as without demonstrating compassion and empathy you could easily come across as cold-hearted or glib. (Talking about me commenting, not you, Spotted One... your words were well chosen).

At the concern of dragging out tired old information, as I have shared on this forum, I am someone who has experienced going to that very bleak place including during our extended lockdown. As an aside, I share this information, perhaps ad nauseam, as you never know who might be reading it for the first time and it just might help them - that is my motive (and don't worry, there are times I share my story of survival and horror and it bores the shizen out of me... but it aint about me, its about who may benefit).

Anyway, I point out that the article said, 'seriously considered.' And that got my attention. Now here is where I have to be delicate and not come across as debunking or trivialising. There are a couple of big steps after 'seriously considered'. 'Seriously considered' tells me someone is likely anxious, depressed and/or feeling that they're trapped or have no options... it's still big steps to the next stages. Many folks at various times of their lives think about sewerage pipe as a way to stop the hurt/escape etc, but statistics on those who 'seriously consider' and then actually go to the next step or two would be very interesting, perhaps even dramatic. Fortunately, though, and though stressed to the max and inadequately resourced & supported, we have brilliant mental health supports in this country; brilliant people in this country to aid folks through dark times. I was not surprised to see that the actual suicide figures for last year were not all that different to the year before. Again, I stress, that is not to downplay the horror of successful and attempted suicide and the valid concern and action to do more for those feeling this way - that's a given.

Often, kinda like C19 taking the elderly, infirmed, immune compromised folks etc, lockdowns can be the last straw for some already struggling with mental health issues. They're brittle, like yours truly, to begin with so stepping over the edge is not such a big move - but that could be anything, to motivate to the next step, not just lockdowns. Improving mental health awareness and support mechanisms is imperative. It has to be a huge priority to support folks during any and all periods in their lives when they 'seriously consider' removing themselves from planet Earth and you'll no doubt find other very concerning issues to deal with, as I mentioned earlier. Personally, as concerned as I am about folks 'seriously considering' sewage pipe during lockdowns (so concerned that I put my dosh where my gob is and actually help out)... I am deeply, very deeply concerned about domestic violence during lockdowns - the damage that does to thousands, annually, is often for life... and generational.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 14, 2021, 09:20:47 am
Limit your media exposure.
Yes, very very good advice, especially if you are not prepared to do the cross checking work needed to verify what is reported.

Professional media irresponsibly paint a pictures to suit their revenue stream and politics, social media, Facebook, Instagram, Tic Tok, is an order of magnitude worse than professional media!

Unfortunately, the era of a reliable and responsibly media is long long gone!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 14, 2021, 09:28:39 am
Well said, Oh Spotted One.

Commenting on suicide, attempted, contemplated or otherwise, is a tricky business as without demonstrating compassion and empathy you could easily come across as cold-hearted or glib. (Talking about me commenting, not you, Spotted One... your words were well chosen).

At the concern of dragging out tired old information, as I have shared on this forum, I am someone who has experienced going to that very bleak place including during our extended lockdown. As an aside, I share this information, perhaps ad nauseam, as you never know who might be reading it for the first time and it just might help them - that is my motive (and don't worry, there are times I share my story of survival and horror and it bores the shizen out of me... but it aint about me, its about who may benefit).

Anyway, I point out that the article said, 'seriously considered.' And that got my attention. Now here is where I have to be delicate and not come across as debunking or trivialising. There are a couple of big steps after 'seriously considered'. 'Seriously considered' tells me someone is likely anxious, depressed and/or feeling that they're trapped or have no options... it's still big steps to the next stages. Many folks at various times of their lives think about sewerage pipe as a way to stop the hurt/escape etc, but statistics on those who 'seriously consider' and then actually go to the next step or two would be very interesting, perhaps even dramatic. Fortunately, though, and though stressed to the max and inadequately resourced & supported, we have brilliant mental health supports in this country; brilliant people in this country to aid folks through dark times. I was not surprised to see that the actual suicide figures for last year were not all that different to the year before. Again, I stress, that is not to downplay the horror of successful and attempted suicide and the valid concern and action to do more for those feeling this way - that's a given.

Often, kinda like C19 taking the elderly, infirmed, immune compromised folks etc, lockdowns can be the last straw for some already struggling with mental health issues. They're brittle, like yours truly, to begin with so stepping over the edge is not such a big move - but that could be anything, to motivate to the next step, not just lockdowns. Improving mental health awareness and support mechanisms is imperative. It has to be a huge priority to support folks during any and all periods in their lives when they 'seriously consider' removing themselves from planet Earth and you'll no doubt find other very concerning issues to deal with, as I mentioned earlier. Personally, as concerned as I am about folks 'seriously considering' sewage pipe during lockdowns (so concerned that I put my dosh where my gob is and actually help out)... I am deeply, very deeply concerned about domestic violence during lockdowns - the damage that does to thousands, annually, is often for life... and generational.
@Baggers‍ thanks for the very personal objective summary, so many of us are only distant observers.

You're probably aware of what goes on around suburban football clubs in the headspace issue, one of my own boys has lost three mates from his junior or senior teams. There is an organisation run by some parents who come and talk to clubs as a match day function, I can't overstate the importance of those efforts, talking about it, and how gruelling it is on those who present no matter how many times they repeat the exercise. So many are at a loss on how to proceed, but it's certainly the case that talking is the significant first step.

I'm glad to be still reading your posts.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 14, 2021, 09:28:59 am
Limit your media exposure.

To echo the Spotted One, that is top advice. And in my mental health talks that is near number 1 on my list of suggestions (for mental health).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 14, 2021, 09:31:40 am
I think NB was suggesting that reducing “doom-scrolling” would help to reduce anxiety. Not a bad strategy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 14, 2021, 09:38:16 am
It's not just social media.

A great example of how the media flip to suit their revenue stream and demographic;
Take a look at Panahi has completely flipped on Gladys, even before Bolt, it's almost bordering on a form of malpractice! This screws around with vulnerable people, and excessively impacts people in the least likely frame of mind to think through the the details of what they read. It's reprehensible behaviour targeted at and worshipping the almighty dollar at the expense of society.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 14, 2021, 09:40:24 am
I doubt it means anything but less.

That linked article gives you no baselines, you can't tell if it's a rise, fall or flat.

When the deaths are counted in the many hundreds, for a process that has a relative low completion rate, you aren't going to see a sudden statistical shift in the percentages. If only 1:10 attempts are successful, and my understanding is that is roughly the figure, and there is a drop in deaths by 40 or 50 doesn't that mean by association hundreds of less attempts?

The various groups debating working from office or home are telling us the bulk of employees are happier now they aren't in the office 5 days a week. One large organisation I deal with are telling me productivity is up, the only people unhappy, the ones losing out are the corporate psychopaths who have lost their overview of staff.

I'm not sure what to think, I accept it's way way more complex than our simple analysis can surmise, but the numbers do not lie.

I wanted to comment on your other, very well raised point and more significant than many folks realise - working from home, and more specifically, the greater than people believe, proliferation of 'corporate sociopaths' delivering misery to employees. The Spotted One, is... well... spot on.

A huge majority of employees have found that they love a flexibility of going into the office and working from home. And to address the highly manipulative argument from some 'bosses' that folks are less productive working from home - this is absolute bullshizen. A brilliant article from Harvard last year pointed out, conclusively, that better than 80% of folks are actually MORE productive working from home.

For these sociopaths/narcissists it is nothing more than them cracking it due to losing their control, their grip, their intimidation of employees. I've met a number of them, and confronted them over this - they hate it and get very angry, when presented with the facts of raised productivity when working from home.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 14, 2021, 10:54:54 am
https://theconversation.com/federal-help-for-nsw-triggers-slanging-match-between-andrews-and-morrison-governments-164404
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 14, 2021, 10:55:09 am
Its also worth not trivialising the domestic violence figures.  I remember them state a over 200% increase in domestic violence episodes.

Thats not to condone the behaviour, or to state they are a direct result of lockdowns.

I know of quite a few relationships that were on the verge of breaking down, that the COVID situation caused the eventual break down, some that were strengthened in the face of adversity, and by the by, those that status quo remained.

The kids are going to be the ones we wont know how seriously or badly effected they were for quite some time and not just from the past 1.5 years, but the return to normality, and any PTSD they might suffer simply looking the world in the face.

By contrast it might effect them positively in ways we wont understand in terms of breeding resilience in generations that previously have not faced much adversity (in our society anyway).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 14, 2021, 11:11:51 am
Gobsmacked, stunned, speechless... Rita P and Terry M (HUN opinion writers) have turned on Gladys and SloMo (Prime Minister of NSW).  :o  :o  ::)  :-X
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 14, 2021, 11:30:47 am
Its also worth not trivialising the domestic violence figures.  I remember them state a over 200% increase in domestic violence episodes.

Thats not to condone the behaviour, or to state they are a direct result of lockdowns.

I know of quite a few relationships that were on the verge of breaking down, that the COVID situation caused the eventual break down, some that were strengthened in the face of adversity, and by the by, those that status quo remained.

The kids are going to be the ones we wont know how seriously or badly effected they were for quite some time and not just from the past 1.5 years, but the return to normality, and any PTSD they might suffer simply looking the world in the face.

By contrast it might effect them positively in ways we wont understand in terms of breeding resilience in generations that previously have not faced much adversity (in our society anyway).

Sorry, 3 Leos, but I have to pull you up on a little of what you say. I hope I haven't misread what you say... if so, I apologize.

1. That 200% rise in domestic violence is ONLY what is reported... let me assure you that the real figure is much higher. Similar to sexual abuse/violations/rape... much goes unreported. Why? Fear. Fear of retribution, fear of loss of somewhere to live, fear of livelihood, fear of stigma.

2. PTSD is not something that once you become resilient, it is healed or even reduced significantly or gone. PTSD, despite the shallow cures you might hear of, never goes, in fact it often worsens with age - it's about management. It is like a huge growling beast sitting on your shoulder for life. There are far, far better ways to become resilient than through suffering/trauma.

3. Perhaps the term PTSD is so bandied about these days that some of us are becoming immune to its horror/impact. Sheesh, some folks claim PTSD after what I would call 'minor' (but nonetheless traumatic) events - perhaps too easily diagnosed these days. If you lose a leg in a traumatic circumstance, you might very well become 'resilient' out of necessity... but you'll always walk with a limp.

Perhaps we'll meet up at a game one day and I'll communicate to you in person what happened to me. Or you can talk openly with another war vet, ambo person, police person, nurse, doc etc... who has PTSD and you'll learn it is a huge life changer in so many respects.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 14, 2021, 11:45:47 am
Sorry, 3 Leos, but I have to pull you up on a little of what you say. I hope I haven't misread what you say... if so, I apologize.

1. That 200% rise in domestic violence is ONLY what is reported... let me assure you that the real figure is much higher. Similar to sexual abuse/violations/rape... much goes unreported. Why? Fear. Fear of retribution, fear of loss of somewhere to live, fear of livelihood, fear of stigma.

2. PTSD is not something that once you become resilient, it is healed or even reduced significantly or gone. PTSD, despite the shallow cures you might hear of, never goes, in fact it often worsens with age - it's about management. It is like a huge growling beast sitting on your shoulder for life. There are far, far better ways to become resilient than through suffering/trauma.

3. Perhaps the term PTSD is so bandied about these days that some of us are becoming immune to its horror/impact. Sheesh, some folks claim PTSD after what I would call 'minor' (but nonetheless traumatic) events - perhaps too easily diagnosed these days. If you lose a leg in a traumatic circumstance, you might very well become 'resilient' out of necessity... but you'll always walk with a limp.

Perhaps we'll meet up at a game one day and I'll communicate to you in person what happened to me. Or you can talk openly with another war vet, ambo person, police person, nurse, doc etc... who has PTSD and you'll learn it is a huge life changer in so many respects.

I just had a quick read, and I either haven't articulated myself correctly, or you have misread what I have tried to state (probably a bit of both).

Either way, call it a miscommunication, because we largely agree.

Ill try and clarify.

1.  Domestic Violence has increased as a result of the COVID situations, and simply people being locked in together for long periods of time, rightly, wrongly, reported or otherwise.  The figure I quoted was a remembered number off the news, and how it applies to the landscape is not to be trivialised and any inability for me to remember this is my error, not what is reported, or how the episodes play out (not all domestic violence is reported as an example).  The 200% increase would be the confirmed calls to help, but even my percentage is a quote from memory and therefore, a number to accentuate how big a rise it is, rather than factual quoting.

2.  I wasn't trying to link, PTSD and resilience.  The resilience I was mentioning was more about Gen Snowflake, and how they need everything done for them, or have been produced as a result of helicopter parenting, where the kids are so dependant on things being provided to them, they have no concept of how to self entertain, or cope with their feelings properly.

3.  The youth growing up with the spectre of COVID, and lockdowns hanging over their shoulder, are going to have elements of PTSD regarding this situation.  This was where I was trying to head when I mentioned PTSD.

My final summation was a mixed bag of things, that I probably could have articulated better.

No need to explain more in person about what occurred, I think we have messaged privately, and I have nothing but respect for everyone else and empathy with any of their situations, and just consider anything written an error of communication than anything else.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 14, 2021, 12:05:27 pm
Gobsmacked, stunned, speechless... Rita P and Terry M (HUN opinion writers) have turned on Gladys and SloMo (Prime Minister of NSW).  :o  :o  ::)  :-X
Merchants of misery, pain for profit.

They would do well in the S&M industry.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 14, 2021, 12:11:23 pm
97 new cases in NSW and the lockdown has been extended by 2 weeks. Some public health officials are calling for a lockdown that’s harsher than Victoria’s as the Delta variant is more transmissible, otherwise new cases will just stabilise.

The Liberal opposition have lost their biggest weapon: pointing to NSW to show “Dictator Dan” didn’t need to lock down as he did. They can still argue this, of course, but it ends up a bit like the “What have the Romans ever done for us?” skit. They’ve gone from a black and white issue to a very gray one. Instead they might choose to attack him for not locking down harder and more quickly even if that would be hypocritical given their trenchant criticism of lockdowns and restrictions. Of course, they may well argue both even if they are mutually exclusive, especially if they can micro-target different audiences.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on July 14, 2021, 12:16:36 pm
Melbourne folks check your news for exact details... Carlton v Geelong game (MCC area) is an exposure site.

(SKY NEWS)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 14, 2021, 12:19:16 pm
The Liberal opposition have lost their biggest weapon: pointing to NSW to show “Dictator Dan” didn’t need to lock down as he did. They can still argue this, of course, but it ends up a bit like the “What have the Romans ever done for us?” skit.
Funny, I thought of Python myself, but for me it was just a flesh wound!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 14, 2021, 12:19:32 pm
At least Michael O’Brien, the Victorian Liberal leader, has won the consolation prize. The Sydney removalists have shared the love and Victoria now has 7 new cases. God bless the family who moved back to Melbourne and then breached quarantine.

O’Brien might benefit from another lockdown in Victoria even though NSW would be responsible for it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 14, 2021, 12:27:06 pm
Melbourne folks check your news for exact details... Carlton v Geelong game (MCC area) is an exposure site.

(SKY NEWS)
Mmmm, it'll be interesting to see how the AFL react to this.

If they want to be proactive it might be back to no crowds or reduced crowds just to be safe, as long as they don't be a Gladys and wait until the outbreak goes above and beyond. If the AFL want to be seen as the community leader they claim to be, reacting too slowly won't be the acceptable solution.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on July 14, 2021, 12:48:11 pm
From what section of the ground do our injured players watch a game?

If it's a 'dodgy' area no doubt they've interacted with other players since the game.

The season could be in a bit  of strife, so crowds mightn't be an issue.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 14, 2021, 12:51:58 pm
I saw Marchbank in the AFL Members section when he had his neck injury. Fingers crossed that’s where they hang out.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on July 14, 2021, 01:04:38 pm
I guess the key is the 'bubble'.
How limited is the contact between AFL players and others at present.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 14, 2021, 01:26:44 pm
In regards to this stated "AFL bubble", I suppose they get to and from their specially reserved seats through the same crowd of regulars as they always do.

In recent weeks, due to injuries, we must have moved several players in and out of the bubble to transition between AFL and VFL.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 14, 2021, 01:31:22 pm
Chances are the quarantine-breaching family fled Sydney and returned to Melbourne to avoid the lockdown. But then they brought the lockdown with them. They're currently locked down in an apartment block with all of their unfortunate neighbours and it won't be too long before everyone else gets to enjoy it too. I wonder how popular they are in their apartment block. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out which family returned after an absence or moved in a week ago.  

Edit: Maybe I've rolled 2 families into 1. Apparently, the Maribyrnong family is compliant but the Campbellfield family breached quarantine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 14, 2021, 05:53:40 pm
Chances are the quarantine-breaching family fled Sydney and returned to Melbourne to avoid the lockdown. But then they brought the lockdown with them. They're currently locked down in an apartment block with all of their unfortunate neighbours and it won't be too long before everyone else gets to enjoy it too. I wonder how popular they are in their apartment block. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out which family returned after an absence or moved in a week ago.  

Edit: Maybe I've rolled 2 families into 1. Apparently, the Maribyrnong family is compliant but the Campbellfield family breached quarantine.
Maybe Im being harsh but the only way I can describe them is that they are selfish kents. Same with the removalists who refuse to comply on their movements.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 14, 2021, 06:18:31 pm
... and sink that luxury yacht.  That'd be nice
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 14, 2021, 06:57:05 pm
Maybe Im being harsh but the only way I can describe them is that they are selfish kents. Same with the removalists who refuse to comply on their movements.

Not being harsh in the slightest, GTC good buddy. They are self-interested pr1cks who've endangered an entire state and should be called to account... in no uncertain manner. Time to make an example of those who think they're above the law, above their fellow citizens. Fck 'em.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 14, 2021, 08:50:14 pm
Not being harsh in the slightest, GTC good buddy. They are self-interested pr1cks who've endangered an entire state and should be called to account... in no uncertain manner. Time to make an example of those who think they're above the law, above their fellow citizens. Fck 'em.
No argument from me ol mate. The selfishness staggers me. I caught bits and pieces of 60 minutes the other night and they were talking about how Europe has dealt with covid. They have all pitched in and done the right thing (from a lockdown and lax point view) and have gotten to the point where they can manage it and live normally. We have gone backwards in that regard here, too much Seppo influence me thinks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on July 14, 2021, 09:20:53 pm
Anyone with any inside news on whether a lockdown will be announced tomorrow?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 14, 2021, 09:34:09 pm
Anyone with any inside news on whether a lockdown will be announced tomorrow?
No inside news but if you go by our track record, it looks likely. If we had the number of cases NSW has had, Dictator Dan would lock us up in our bedrooms let alone our homes.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on July 14, 2021, 10:03:35 pm
I was sent a message from somebody in hospitality that they have been informed that it is now likely Victoria will announce a snap lockdown tomorrow morning.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 14, 2021, 10:11:29 pm
I was sent a message from somebody in hospitality that they have been informed that it is now likely Victoria will announce a snap lockdown tomorrow morning.
Wouldnt surprise me.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 14, 2021, 10:16:17 pm
FFS ... this endless bullcrap.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 14, 2021, 10:39:20 pm
No argument from me ol mate. The selfishness staggers me. I caught bits and pieces of 60 minutes the other night and they were talking about how Europe has dealt with covid. They have all pitched in and done the right thing (from a lockdown and lax point view) and have gotten to the point where they can manage it and live normally. We have gone backwards in that regard here, too much Seppo influence me thinks.
europe....

You have to go back to pre pandemic to see case numbers as low as ours.
Im not sure they have cancelled a summer tourist season the whole time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 14, 2021, 11:15:26 pm
Get the vaccine rollout rolling and we might be able to avoid yo-yo lockdowns. Give SloMo the arse. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 14, 2021, 11:17:21 pm
Get the vaccine rollout rolling and we might be able to avoid yo-yo lockdowns. Give SloMo the arse. 

Yeah, went well in the UK.

You know everything Mav, explain this....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 14, 2021, 11:23:35 pm
That's easy, they just didn't have enough Ivermectin to go around ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 15, 2021, 07:17:42 am
So we're back to the same routine.  Masks and who knows what else will follow.  Seriously stupid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 15, 2021, 07:47:03 am
That's easy, they just didn't have enough Ivermectin to go around ...
They needed Alan Jones to tell them what they were doing was wrong.

On a more serious note, this talk about the concept of virus extinction and it being some sort of ongoing focus of health authorities is misplaced, they aren't focussed on extinction anymore and they haven't been for a long time because it's impossible. Maybe politicians still talk in those terms, to clam up the nutter masses into thinking stuff can eventually go 100% back to the way it was before, but you shouldn't believe them.

The lockdowns and restrictions are the consequence of a one very simple number, R0 = 7

Sars-CoV-2 is now endemic, technically it has always been endemic, it is just that it wasn't endemic in human or where humans were. Now that it is, vaccines are the only way out of the repeating cycle.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 15, 2021, 07:53:15 am
Well, if anyone deserves long-Covid, it’s Jair Bolsonaro. He has had persistent hiccups for the last 10 days preventing him from speaking and causing severe abdominal pain. It’s as though he’s been silenced by God.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 15, 2021, 08:04:40 am
Well, if anyone deserves long-Covid, it’s Jair Bolsonaro. He has had persistent hiccups for the last 10 days preventing him from speaking and causing severe abdominal pain. It’s as though he’s been silenced by God.
I saw a documentary once on people that suffer continuous hiccups, not very pleasant, not something you'd wish on anybody. Sort of like issuing your own built in never ending version of water torture.

Makes you think about getting Whooping Cough vaccination to protect the infants, I bet hiccups could be just as bad.

Is it COVID related? Ironically the hiccups could be. The phenotype of Long COVID is so wide it can manifest as damage to the nervous system across your whole body. Officials have observed a full gamut of effects from small ticks and twitches to full quadriplegia.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 15, 2021, 08:19:03 am
Supposedly, a surgeon has diagnosed him with a bowel obstruction and wants to operate. Bolsonaro blames recent dental implants. But it also fits Covid.

I have no magical powers and don’t believe in magical thinking. I can’t do any harm to anyone by wishing something on them. But this prick is causing a lot of harm to Brazilians and it would be a Godsend if Covid takes him out (and very fitting too).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 15, 2021, 08:22:19 am
Supposedly, a surgeon has diagnosed him with a bowel obstruction and wants to operate. Bolsonaro blames recent dental implants. But it also fits Covid.

I have no magical powers and don’t believe in magical thinking. I can’t do any harm to anyone by wishing something on them. But this prick is causing a lot of harm to Brazilians and it would be a Godsend if Covid takes him out (and very fitting too).
 Yes, emotional versus rational thinking, it is a battle for everyone that some of us win some of us don't, but we never win them all! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 15, 2021, 09:35:07 am
Guys

I understand these situations are emotionally charged, but we dont have to turn on each other.

I overheard someone say, why did the family have to move states now....  When is more appropriate to make a move from one state to another?  Its not like it wouldn't have been planned months ahead of time, and we dont live in a dictatorship where this isnt possible.  Covid has been around for over 1.5 years now.  These questions are at best, idiotic.

I sometimes hear people say stuff, because its all about their own personal perspective, but when push comes to shove, the rule books are not written, the process, and procedure, unfamiliar, and even the whole covid situation interstate, unprecedented (NSW have had stuff all outbreak to deal with until now, so to see them lack a bit of foresight based on our own experience with this is a bit short sighted IMHO).

Anyway, when it all comes down to it, keep yourselves safe, keep the judgement minimum, and keep the heads up so we can all come out the other side of this a little bit more well adjusted than previously because the vast majority of people in public have lost the compassion for each other and if we lose that then we have nothing as a society. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 15, 2021, 09:46:54 am
Guys

I understand these situations are emotionally charged, but we dont have to turn on each other.

I overheard someone say, why did the family have to move states now....  When is more appropriate to make a move from one state to another?  Its not like it wouldn't have been planned months ahead of time, and we dont live in a dictatorship where this isnt possible.  Covid has been around for over 1.5 years now.  These questions are at best, idiotic.

I sometimes hear people say stuff, because its all about their own personal perspective, but when push comes to shove, the rule books are not written, the process, and procedure, unfamiliar, and even the whole covid situation interstate, unprecedented (NSW have had stuff all outbreak to deal with until now, so to see them lack a bit of foresight based on our own experience with this is a bit short sighted IMHO).

Anyway, when it all comes down to it, keep yourselves safe, keep the judgement minimum, and keep the heads up so we can all come out the other side of this a little bit more well adjusted than previously because the vast majority of people in public have lost the compassion for each other and if we lose that then we have nothing as a society. 


I think you'll find some of us are angry at the removalists because they lied to authorities and failed to abide by the conditions of entry into VIC. That resulted in very understandable ire. As I said before, I hope they throw the book at the pr1cks. Most folks play ball and are team players - ripper. But I am glad we have zero tolerance for those who lie.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 15, 2021, 11:08:01 am
I think you'll find some of us are angry at the removalists because they lied to authorities and failed to abide by the conditions of entry into VIC. That resulted in very understandable ire. As I said before, I hope they throw the book at the pr1cks. Most folks play ball and are team players - ripper. But I am glad we have zero tolerance for those who lie.
As much as we have some disdain for those that deliberately resist the efforts of the wider general public and health authorities, we must not allow this to deteriorate into mob rule or we become as bad or worse than those who are persecuted.

When the mob rules any of us could be next, have a look at Sth Africa at the moment, fear what might happen just north of the border in Indonesia next, it exposes the global futility of separatism, isolation and viral extinction! What happens there eventually impacts us, just like the global effects of Capital Hill.

Due process, always and every time!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 15, 2021, 11:20:54 am
When the mob rules any of us could be next, have a look at Sth Africa at the moment

Or it appears, Cuba. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 15, 2021, 11:34:21 am
Overseas in Sth American countries they shoot CoVid law breakers, lock them in Dog cages....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on July 15, 2021, 12:59:21 pm
Crazy messaging from Gladys this morning.   Did I hear correctly?  " dont seek medical attention if you're sick"???  I assume this is out of concern for medical staff.   People are forgetting that vaccination doesn't stop you from becoming a transmission vector,  it attenuates the severity of the disease.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 15, 2021, 01:04:02 pm
We've a massive problem because the shizen response and mixed messaging from NSW authorities means that the people there do not isolate until the feel unwell. They think they don't have to isolate, it's not their problem, then someone close to them gets seriously ill and the find out they have been positive and infectious for days!

The net result is day after day dozens of infectious NSW Norbits are roaming freely around in the community.

Just like it has fecked up 1st Class Cricket, NSW Privilege is killing the country, Gold Standard sure, but Gold Standard Flogs! They gone from "No Need for us to Lockdown", to "We are all in this together" at light speed, Scotty couldn't push it out any faster!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 15, 2021, 01:51:40 pm
Looks like lockdown again from midnight. Not yet clear how long it will last.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 15, 2021, 02:13:25 pm
Overseas in Sth American countries they shoot CoVid law breakers, lock them in Dog cages....
I got a gun and am I pretty good shot on the ducks and rabbits!!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 15, 2021, 03:41:02 pm
https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-15-07-2021

Thankfully, 373 of the 377 deaths are mere coincidence. Phew.

Plus, a few highlights:

1. 83 cases of TTS (incl. 32 Tier 1 clots in strange places)
2. 31 cases of ITP
3. 52 cases of Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS)!!!!
4. 50 cases of myocarditis (heart inflammation) and pericarditis (inflammation of the heart membrane).

As they say in the movies, collateral damage!

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 15, 2021, 04:01:56 pm
I think you'll find some of us are angry at the removalists because they lied to authorities and failed to abide by the conditions of entry into VIC. That resulted in very understandable ire. As I said before, I hope they throw the book at the pr1cks. Most folks play ball and are team players - ripper. But I am glad we have zero tolerance for those who lie.

Yes well, these reports may not be accurate, and irrespective of where they sit, my comment was for people who state, "why do they have to move now?"

People have lives to lead, and im pretty confident they don't believe they were sick or infected. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on July 15, 2021, 04:39:59 pm
Time to get rid of State governments. >:(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 15, 2021, 04:42:36 pm
Yes well, these reports may not be accurate, and irrespective of where they sit, my comment was for people who state, "why do they have to move now?"

People have lives to lead, and im pretty confident they don't believe they were sick or infected. 

Totally agree, people do have lives to lead and have to move house from time to time... Mrs Baggers and I moved house during our last lockdown - we had to move because the place was sold and the new owners needed a place to live!!! Important to note that our removalists adhered to all C19 protocols - masks and regular hand cleaning with alcohol based products (no, not vodka!!!). And the cleaners who prepared the place for the newbies also adhered to all C19 protocols... even making sure we weren't present at the time of the clean. Everyone was a team player. We were able to travel freely toward sold home and new home, but, again, adhered to all C19 protocols.

I repeat that my ire was raised when it was reported that the removalists in questions were uncooperative when questioned and did not adhere to appropriate C19 protocols. It aint hard to be a team player, and such an attitude is actually the 'Aussie spirit', which I respect and admire.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 15, 2021, 04:52:36 pm
https://theconversation.com/a-tougher-4-week-lockdown-could-save-sydney-months-of-stay-at-home-orders-our-modelling-shows-164483
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 15, 2021, 04:58:13 pm
5 day lockdown in Melbourne starting midnight.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 15, 2021, 09:31:15 pm
Totally agree, people do have lives to lead and have to move house from time to time... Mrs Baggers and I moved house during our last lockdown - we had to move because the place was sold and the new owners needed a place to live!!! Important to note that our removalists adhered to all C19 protocols - masks and regular hand cleaning with alcohol based products (no, not vodka!!!). And the cleaners who prepared the place for the newbies also adhered to all C19 protocols... even making sure we weren't present at the time of the clean. Everyone was a team player. We were able to travel freely toward sold home and new home, but, again, adhered to all C19 protocols.

I repeat that my ire was raised when it was reported that the removalists in questions were uncooperative when questioned and did not adhere to appropriate C19 protocols. It aint hard to be a team player, and such an attitude is actually the 'Aussie spirit', which I respect and admire.

Nothing wrong with taking exception to things, I just think we need a bit more compassion as a society.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 15, 2021, 10:15:19 pm
Time to get rid of State governments. >:(

They're rubbish.  Every last one of them.   
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 15, 2021, 10:15:29 pm
https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-15-07-2021

Thankfully, 373 of the 377 deaths are mere coincidence. Phew.

Plus, a few highlights:

1. 83 cases of TTS (incl. 32 Tier 1 clots in strange places)
2. 31 cases of ITP
3. 52 cases of Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS)!!!!
4. 50 cases of myocarditis (heart inflammation) and pericarditis (inflammation of the heart membrane).

As they say in the movies, collateral damage!


373?....Thats a lot of underlying causes.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on July 15, 2021, 10:31:24 pm
Some more detailed advice for those who may have attended

Quote
Victorian Department of Health
39m  ·
Were you at the MCG on Saturday afternoon for the Carlton v Geelong game?
Due to transmission that has occurred within the Members’ Reserve, our public health teams are updating the public health advice for this exposure site.
TIER 1 UPDATE – PERCY BEAMES
The Percy Beames Bar on Level 2 of the Members’ Reserve is now a Tier 1 exposure site between 4:00 and 4:30pm, and between 5:20 and 5:50pm, on Saturday 10 July.
If you were at this bar during any of those times, you must immediately isolate, get a test, and quarantine for 14 days following the exposure. Contact us at 1300 651 160.
TIER 2 UPDATE – ALL AREAS
All sections of the Members Reserve between the hours of 4:00pm and 8:00pm on Saturday 10 July  – not just Level 2 – is now a Tier 2 exposure site. If you were in the Members’ Reserve in those times, immediately isolate, get a test, and stay isolated until you receive a negative result.
Some people within the Members’ Reserve who we have subsequently identified as coming into close contact with a confirmed case will also be messaged directly from the Department and be instructed to quarantine for 14 days.
PUBLIC TRANSPORT REMINDER
Did you catch PT to and from the game?
The Route 70 tram departing Flinders St/Swanston St at 3:46pm and arriving at the MCG at 3:53pm is a Tier 1 exposure site.
If you were on this tram, you must immediately isolate, get a test, and quarantine for 14 days following the exposure – and contact us at 1300 651 160. If you are unsure, contact us and get a test.
The train after the game from Jolimont Station to Flinders St – departing 7:13pm and arriving 7:20pm – is a Tier 2 exposure site. So is Jolimont Station from 7:05. If you were on the train or platform in those times, immediately isolate, get a test, and stay isolated until you receive a negative result. If you are unsure, get tested.
YOUNG AND JACKSON REMINDER
Did you have a drink before the game?
Young and Jackson, at the corner of Flinders and Swanston St, between 2:40pm and 4:10pm on 10 July, is a Tier 1 exposure site.
If you were there during any of this time, you must immediately isolate, get a test, and quarantine for 14 days following the exposure. Contact us at 1300 651 160.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 15, 2021, 10:40:04 pm
Yes well, these reports may not be accurate, and irrespective of where they sit, my comment was for people who state, "why do they have to move now?"

People have lives to lead, and im pretty confident they don't believe they were sick or infected. 

Moreover, at a bigger picture level, viruses do what viruses do (i.e. spread).....there's always going to be 'escape'.

To think otherwise is fantasy.

T
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 15, 2021, 10:41:41 pm
373?....Thats a lot of underlying causes.....

My guesstimate - these vaccines will be stopped within 2-3 months. Globally.

Too much collateral damage.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 15, 2021, 10:50:09 pm
My guesstimate - these vaccines will be stopped within 2-3 months. Globally.

Too much collateral damage.
Tend to agree some will be removed from use and a lot will depend on data coming out of countries like England and the USA where they have a bigger sample size of effectiveness vs new strains vs side effects.
They are talking about having 3rd booster shots here for AstraZ given they want to cut the waiting time down between the 1st and 2nd shots now we have outbreaks, not sure if the public will embrace all that given the slow take up already and a preference for Pfizer among many.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 15, 2021, 11:49:30 pm
373?....Thats a lot of underlying causes.....

Where's LP when you need him?  ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 15, 2021, 11:50:14 pm
https://www.theepochtimes.com/question-everything_3892808.html

"Science doesn’t flip-flop like that. Politics does. Science has become politicized. We need to decouple science from politics. It’s being manipulated to serve corporate and political agendas. Anyone criticising “The Science” is silenced harshly. People are smart and if given accurate information they can make the right decisions for themselves and their communities. Unfortunately, people are being misinformed and fear-mongered with non-stop death reports, apparently vanishing immunity, and the threat of new variants."
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 16, 2021, 01:50:54 am
I took your advice and questioned everything. I found out that the Epoch Times is associated with the Falun Gong and has been a huge supporter of Donald Trump. They see him as heaven sent to take down the Chinese communist party. Apart from seeing communists everywhere, they've also adopted QAnon conspiracy theories and believe in the deep state cabal of lefty paedophiles raping children and drinking their blood yada yada yada.  The author seems to have psychology qualifications and writes childrens' books and is associated with PANDA, a Covid-sceptic organisation run by an actuary/private equity investor. I probably prefer some greater expertise in the area.

Thank God you warned me to question everything Flyboy or I might have been sucked it by that nonsense. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 16, 2021, 07:51:22 am
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/24/technology/epoch-times-influence-falun-gong.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2021, 07:55:43 am
Where's LP when you need him?  ;D

Sorry I couldn't type I was laughing too much!

In the meantime, I was sitting and waiting for my graph to rise!

(https://www.aihw.gov.au/getmedia/22f1e2cc-4561-4619-afb7-8956cf71a794/Fig4-1_24Feb2021.png.aspx)
Eventually someone will get it, given how deadly those vaccines are, I mean imagine if we issue them to millions of people, the carnage!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 16, 2021, 08:18:48 am
Nothing wrong with taking exception to things, I just think we need a bit more compassion as a society.



Couldn't agree more re compassion/empathy. Sadly, there are those who will take advantage of kindness and trust so we need boundaries to let these people know that there is a line and a limit. It would certainly seem that the removalists crossed that line, but any anger at the folks who moved house is very misguided - they applied for and received permits so, yes, compassion for them as innocents in all of this is absolutely required.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 16, 2021, 08:28:40 am
Couldn't agree more re compassion/empathy. Sadly, there are those who will take advantage of kindness and trust so we need boundaries to let these people know that there is a line and a limit. It would certainly seem that the removalists crossed that line, but any anger at the folks who moved house is very misguided - they applied for and received permits so, yes, compassion for them as innocents in all of this is absolutely required.
I was going to post virtually the same thing. The removalists did the wrong thing, now man up and assist those that need the information to assist the greater community.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 16, 2021, 08:50:38 am
My guesstimate - these vaccines will be stopped within 2-3 months. Globally.

Too much collateral damage.

Will you bet your house on AZ/Pfizer & Co all being abandoned by mid October? Come on, show us how convinced you are.

I had my first jab a little while back and the only side effect, a little disconcerting, was growing a new ear on the back of my head... has its uses. The only painful part was the second injection when the microchip was injected... now that smarted.

With the numbers of first jab folks and second jab folks combined, just over 9 million Aussies have had C19 vaccines, and just over 9 million of those have survived.

When, last year here in Vic, we allowed the virus to run loose before belatedly locking down... did we (tragically) lose anyone? Were there any deaths?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2021, 09:14:03 am
Keep in mind vaccines are always evolving and developing like the virus they target, even the vaccines we get commonly like Polio and Measles are not the same as the day they started many decades ago, the real shock would be if the Pfizer and AZ aren't being refined.

The deniers will claim that sort of vaccine evolution is a stopping and changing to a new vaccine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 16, 2021, 09:19:40 am
Am fully vaccinated, second Pfizer jab received Sat, zero side effects to report.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 16, 2021, 10:12:09 am
Am fully vaccinated, second Pfizer jab received Sat, zero side effects to report.

Good stuff Nando.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 16, 2021, 10:15:24 am
What we, in the contemporary sense, understand by vaccines, have been around since the very late 1700's. Since then, their efficacy and effectiveness is undisputed. A number of infectious diseases brought under control, and a small number eradicated altogether. The idea that some or all of the covid vaccines will be pulled from the market is beyond crazy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 16, 2021, 10:48:47 am
AstraZ will be phased out in Aus imo in favour of Pfizer and Moderna.
Not sure if the USA have approved it and you might need a jab of Pfizer to travel there once borders open up.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 16, 2021, 11:00:56 am
I took your advice and questioned everything. I found out that the Epoch Times is associated with the Falun Gong and has been a huge supporter of Donald Trump. They see him as heaven sent to take down the Chinese communist party. Apart from seeing communists everywhere, they've also adopted QAnon conspiracy theories and believe in the deep state cabal of lefty paedophiles raping children and drinking their blood yada yada yada.  The author seems to have psychology qualifications and writes childrens' books and is associated with PANDA, a Covid-sceptic organisation run by an actuary/private equity investor. I probably prefer some greater expertise in the area.

Thank God you warned me to question everything Flyboy or I might have been sucked it by that nonsense. 

You always play the man Mav, not the ball.

Says it all.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 16, 2021, 11:05:02 am
Dr Tess Lawrie calling it out in the UK.

http://medisolve.org/yellowcard_urgentprelimreport.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1k77rN0K-7pcCaQ7A4heGucozyaz_JXL5ctl-wWfEtbx8kVFVLCbgUC3w

Feel free to explain the numbers in the attachment LP.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2021, 11:05:18 am
You always play the man Mav, not the ball.

Says it all.
If crooks and charlatans get offered up as supporting evidence, it is probably pointless to get offended when they are exposed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 16, 2021, 11:06:09 am
AstraZ will be phased out in Aus imo in favour of Pfizer and Moderna.
Not sure if the USA have approved it and you might need a jab of Pfizer to travel there once borders open up.


Novavax (sp?) coming soon too?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 16, 2021, 11:07:34 am
If crooks and charlatans get offered up as supporting evidence, it is probably pointless to get offended when they are exposed.

Straw man argument.

As usual you fail to put up anything substantive....

It's the standard, listen to me, I know best.

Are you related to dopey Dan by chance?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2021, 11:14:27 am
Dr Tess Lawrie calling it out in the UK.

http://medisolve.org/yellowcard_urgentprelimreport.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1k77rN0K-7pcCaQ7A4heGucozyaz_JXL5ctl-wWfEtbx8kVFVLCbgUC3w

Feel free to explain the numbers in the attachment LP.
Offering reports based on the unfiltered Yellow Card scheme is pointless, because unfiltered it almost worthless data collected by what is a voluntary self-reporting scheme by any capable member of the public capable of completing the forms for themselves or on behalf of another. My UK associate advises me the protestors stand outside vaccination clinics offering to help patients complete a report mere minutes after an injection, in effect touting for naysayer business like a PETA protestor harassing clients of a butcher!

When the real experts cut out the questionable reports and other plainly false claims from that data, the denial apparatchiks then claim it is a global conspiracy. Apparently we have to take the deliberate false claims and obvious errors unfiltered without question!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2021, 11:15:18 am
Are you related to dopey Dan by chance?
Is that playing the man deliberate or accidental irony, should I ask @Mav‍ ?

A 7 minute memory limit?
You always play the man Mav, not the ball.

Says it all.
You offered a qualifying source, @Mav exposed the source as a charlatan, much as I did with the Robert F "The King of Anti-Vaxxers" Kennedy Jr  rubbish offered that was offered up a few days back. Then you claim it's a personal attack on you as a form of misdirection.

Play the data not the man might be good advice for you to follow! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 16, 2021, 11:15:46 am
You always play the man Mav, not the ball.

Says it all.
Maybe you should avoid picking up the ball if you don’t like being tackled.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 16, 2021, 11:16:08 am
Novavax (sp?) coming soon too?
Yep...and it has been hyped up to be superior but again its untested on the masses so those choosing to have it will be the lab rats.
Not sure how it's priced per jab either.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2021, 11:26:07 am
Yep...and it has been hyped up to be superior but again its untested on the masses so those choosing to have it will be the lab rats.
Not sure how it's priced per jab either.
Variety is the spice of life, there is burgeoning evidence cross vaccination might provide the best response of all. Resilient systems have redundancy built in either by accident or by design.

What is the technology of the Novavax based vaccine solution?

Have you been vaccinated @ElwoodBlues1 , what is your personal stance on this issue?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 16, 2021, 11:42:01 am
From a switched on Associate Professor of Viral Immunology in Canada.

They issues are well broken down for quick access.

https://dryburgh.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/2021-06-15-Byram-Bridle-Children-and-COVID-19-Vaccines-full-guide_-FINAL.pdf
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 16, 2021, 11:42:56 am
Maybe you should avoid picking up the ball if you don’t like being tackled.

Your tackling is about as innocuous as most of our current players. Sadly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 16, 2021, 11:46:25 am
Seems to have put your nose out of joint though. And to think I didn’t need to lower myself to name-calling like you do.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 16, 2021, 11:54:41 am
Very funny Mav - i never realised you were so sensitive petal. Sorry  ::)

To digress, more on the Delta variant from a US expert.

https://www.francesoir.fr/videos-les-debriefings/analyse-des-assertions-scientifiques-macron-mccullough#.YO_T0DzPNU4.twitter
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2021, 11:55:16 am
From a switched on Associate Professor of Viral Immunology in Canada.

They issues are well broken down for quick access.

https://dryburgh.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/2021-06-15-Byram-Bridle-Children-and-COVID-19-Vaccines-full-guide_-FINAL.pdf
Best not show @ElwoodBlues1‍ those reports because it will destroy his confidence in Pfizer, and Novavax will be even worse if you think the relative size of the trial study bears much importance! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 16, 2021, 12:02:27 pm
Best not show @ElwoodBlues1‍ those reports because it will destroy his confidence in Pfizer, and Novavax will be even worse if you think the relative size of the trial study bears much importance! :o

That study is 200 pages long, and I'd guess even if I did read it all, a fair whack would go over my head. Just reading the executive summary, it seems to focus on "children, adolescents and young adults of child bearing age". The first two are obvious enough, but what age group does the last category include ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2021, 12:04:42 pm
Very funny Mav - i never realised you were so sensitive petal. Sorry  ::)

To digress, more on the Delta variant from a US expert.

https://www.francesoir.fr/videos-les-debriefings/analyse-des-assertions-scientifiques-macron-mccullough#.YO_T0DzPNU4.twitter
We can't take anything offered by Dr Peter "HCQ" McCullough seriously, he's been discredited repeatedly for the last six months with every formal large scale study showing his original paper is worthless, at least in a scientific context, politically perhaps the paper is quite valuable when much of your funding comes from the certain right wing sources.

And yes, an R0 = 7.0 is about a magnitude more infectious than R0 = 2.5, so actually worse than 3x, the 3x Macron allegedly states, well maybe that a lost in translation moment, the question is was that a mistake on Dr HCQ's part of deviously manipulated for political purposes?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 16, 2021, 12:08:03 pm
Very funny Mav - i never realised you were so sensitive petal. Sorry  ::)
Hmmm ... I thought you were the one who did the “Look Mum, he’s hitting me routine”. Just pointing out I have higher standards than you, both in invective and when sorting credible information from BS.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2021, 12:09:50 pm
That study is 200 pages long, and I'd guess even if I did read it all, a fair whack would go over my head. Just reading the executive summary, it seems to focus on "children, adolescents and young adults of child bearing age". The first two are obvious enough, but what age group does the last category include ?
When you read lots and lots of these papers you get use to cutting through the padding and going to the specific claims that the conclusions are based on, they have to stand up in the math. But most of them come back to questionable sources like the Yellow Card or VAERS surveys, which is like polling the MCG exit crowd about Toowoomba Local Council Politics, sure some will know what you are talking about but the delirious remainder will just make it up!

Here is a nice (It stands up to scrutiny) critique of Dr HCQ's claim;
https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/vaccines-are-a-safer-alternative-for-acquiring-immunity-compared-to-natural-infection-and-covid-19-survivors-benefit-from-getting-vaccinated-contrary-to-claims-by-peter-mccullough/
Quote
While infection tends to grant better immunity than vaccination most of the time, getting the disease is associated with a higher risk of death and health complications. Vaccines generate immunity in people while avoiding the risks associated with the disease itself. The amount of spike protein generated by COVID-19 vaccination is too low to cause damage.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 16, 2021, 12:15:21 pm
And the real culprit escapes scrutiny again ... China. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 16, 2021, 12:20:51 pm
Variety is the spice of life, there is burgeoning evidence cross vaccination might provide the best response of all. Resilient systems have redundancy built in either by accident or by design.

What is the technology of the Novavax based vaccine solution?

Have you been vaccinated @ElwoodBlues1 , what is your personal stance on this issue?
I'm no scientific expert but the Novavax is based on older proven technology that was used to design the Hep B vaccine and the Pertussis vaccine. Reported Trials have shown it to be more effective with less side effects but again those trials would be small in numbers and you would need to look at age groups for effectiveness/side effects etc.
While being based on older technology it has the advantage of whats known in the business world as a late start so they have had a chance to look at the other vaccines and learn a bit more about how they have fared.
Have I been vaccinated?....No...Will I get Vaccinated?....Yes...when I think there is a vaccine/s that suits my criteria, needs and more data available to make that choice. Never been one to follow the herd especially especially when politicians with agendas are directing the traffic...
Hopefully the Novavax is that vaccine but I'm sure if it as superior as being marketed that ScoMo and friends will be saving it for themselves before it filters down to the plebs...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2021, 12:23:22 pm
I'm no scientific expert but the Novavax is based on older proven technology that was used to design the Hep B vaccine and the Pertussis vaccine. Reported Trials have shown it to be more effective with less side effects but again those trials would be small in numbers and you would need to look at age groups for effectiveness/side effects etc.
While being based on older technology it has the advantage of whats known in the business world as a late start so they have had a chance to look at the other vaccines and learn a bit more about how they have fared.
Have I been vaccinated?....No...Will I get Vaccinated?....Yes...when I think there is a vaccine/s that suits my criteria, needs and more data available to make that choice. Never been one to follow the herd especially especially when politicians with agendas are directing the traffic...
Hopefully the Novavax is that vaccine but I'm sure if it as superior as being marketed that ScoMo and friends will be saving it for themselves before it filters down to the plebs...
@ElwoodBlues1

So do you want the truth, or would you prefer to stick with your beliefs?

Can you define what qualifies as the highlighted part?
Will I get Vaccinated?....Yes...when I think there is a vaccine/s that suits my criteria, needs and more data available to make that choice.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 16, 2021, 12:26:02 pm
So do you want the truth, or would you prefer to stick with your beliefs?

What would your version of the truth be?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 16, 2021, 12:30:51 pm
And more positive research on Ivermectin....

https://bird-group.org/official-ivermectin-prevents-and-treats-covid/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 16, 2021, 12:34:17 pm
Your tackling is about as innocuous as most of our current players. Sadly.

If it was so 'innocuous' why did you arc up so?

An important distinction. What Wingman MAV pointed out -- Epoch/Falon Gong/Qanon -- in response to your point of argument was to question the sources of your information. That is NOT playing the man, that is playing the ball.

You referred to Wingman MAV as 'petal' - that is condescension, which is personal, which is playing the man.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 16, 2021, 12:35:43 pm
We can't take anything offered by Dr Peter "HCQ" McCullough seriously, he's been discredited repeatedly for the last six months with every formal large scale study showing his original paper is worthless, at least in a scientific context, politically perhaps the paper is quite valuable when much of your funding comes from the certain right wing sources.

And yes, an R0 = 7.0 is about a magnitude more infectious than R0 = 2.5, so actually worse than 3x, the 3x Macron allegedly states, well maybe that a lost in translation moment, the question is was that a mistake on Dr HCQ's part of deviously manipulated for political purposes?

His original study?

This?

https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(20)30673-2/fulltext

Show me where it's been canned, debunked whatever.....

You're just making stuff up again.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 16, 2021, 12:39:48 pm
If it was so 'innocuous' why did you arc up so?

An important distinction. What Wingman MAV pointed out -- Epoch/Falon Gong/Qanon -- in response to your point of argument was to question the sources of your information. That is NOT playing the man, that is playing the ball.

You referred to Wingman MAV as 'petal' - that is condescension, which is person, which is playing the man.

Where did I arc up?

That article by Abir Ballan has been published widely in many different places (she has a Masters in public health and a background in public health, psychology, and education). - none of you has even once referenced any of the content. Not once.

The obfuscation by tying it to Falon Gong or Qanon or whatever is ludicrous.

Petal, condescension is Mav's middle name....fair crack.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2021, 12:42:10 pm
What would your version of the truth be?
@ElwoodBlues1‍ 

I don't have a version of anything, only accurate information

Pertussis, Diphtheria, Tetanus are bacterial infections, the technology and methods used to make those vaccines has no relationship to viral vaccines like AZ, Novavax and Pfizer. Whoever told you that lead you up the garden path of irrelevance. Researchers artificially insert bacterial fragments or proteins into a host like a yeast to create a vaccine.

Novavax and AZ are made by the same fundamental method, researchers artificially insert genes into a known human benign viral vectors like Adenovirus or Baculovirus.

Hep B vaccine is typically a blend of up to 6 distinct vaccines that are all made by a variety of different methods, it pretty much covers the lot including ones you list as safe and others you list as unsafe.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 16, 2021, 12:44:23 pm
@ElwoodBlues1

So do you want the truth, or would you prefer to stick with your beliefs?

Can you define what qualifies as the highlighted part?
Will I get Vaccinated?....Yes...when I think there is a vaccine/s that suits my criteria, needs and more data available to make that choice.


One with less serious side effects with relation to my/family medical history, that is more effective for longer periods between jabs and that is accepted clearly as the best by Medical opinion universally and not by defined what can produced more cheaply or will assist the time frame of the economic aspirations of the Government in my own country.
Here is another version of the truth......
 https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/06/novavax-now-best-covid-19-vaccine/619276/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2021, 12:50:25 pm
One with less serious side effects with relation to my/family medical history, that is more effective for longer periods between jabs and that is accepted clearly as the best by Medical opinion universally and not by defined what can produced more cheaply or will assist the time frame of the economic aspirations of the Government in my own country.
Here is another version of the truth......
 https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/06/novavax-now-best-covid-19-vaccine/619276/
Yes, this is an interesting depiction / version.

You know the author's claims are based on a single clinical trial of only 7,580 dose of Novavax, which she claims delivers more accurate results than the hundreds of millions of doses of Pfizer that have been issued.

Do you think it's odd the article contains no comparison to AZ, given that AZ and Novavax use the same technology, does that not ring your suspicion bell?

Does a US perspective colour color the resulting conclusions, do you think there is just a slight chance it's a paid advertisement for Novavax?

If the millions and now approaching billions of people already vaccinated with either Pfizer and AZ, who are now living healthy lives and getting on with life not enough evidence to satisfy you, what is then?

You made an interesting comment about "being effective for longer", so I presume you don't mean Novavax which is relatively new and as such lacks any longitudinal evidence?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 16, 2021, 01:00:50 pm
I think we have to accept that in our society, there will be those who will follow the prevailing scientific and medical orthodoxy, and those who will follow the path less traveled, alternative therapies, natural medicines and the like. For all of us, whichever path you take, may you be safe, healthy and virus free.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 16, 2021, 01:04:01 pm

Yes, this is an interesting depiction / version.

You know the author's claims are based on a single clinical trial of only 7,580 dose of Novavax, which she claims delivers more accurate results than the hundreds of millions of doses of Pfizer that have been issued.

Do you think it's odd the article contains no comparison to AZ, given they use the same technology, does that not ring your suspicion bell?

Does a US perspective colour color the resulting conclusions?

As I said early days and I would want more data because the masses will be the lab rats like they have been for AZ and Pfizer etc......didnt think she was pushing the barrow of any vaccines really, dismissed the Johnson from the USA, and praised the other vaccines. Even went on to say that Pharma is a gamble  and that all the vaccines are wonderful just that Novavax in her opinion was better and yep based on a small sample size from the UK.
Very promising but would I be jabbing myself with Novavax right now....No...not until I had more evidence of success in all areas of concern. If it is proven better then I have no doubt it will be priced accordingly and supplies limited which wont suit the world wide rollouts. As I said just another version of the truth to be read and weighed up against all the other versions floating around and I'll make my mind up when the medical jury's around the world can agree..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 16, 2021, 01:18:49 pm
I think we have to accept that in our society, there will be those who will follow the prevailing scientific and medical orthodoxy, and those who will follow the path less traveled, alternative therapies, natural medicines and the like. For all of us, whichever path you take, may you be safe, healthy and virus free.
Paul, you are making me sound like a Hippie driving a Kombie van and deriving my medical information from Snoop Dogs weed Dealer😀. I'm definitely not that and pro Western medicine and its very much just deciding which Western Medicine is best IMHO.
I just think with CoVid numbers low in Aus I can afford to wait a bit longer and make a more informed decision as more data become available. Hope you and the family stay healthy and virus free too....same to all our forum members.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2021, 01:24:16 pm
Very promising but would I be jabbing myself with Novavax right now....No...not until I had more evidence of success in all areas of concern.
Isn't the public you refer to as Lab Rats going to the source of your evidence for Novavax as well?

By inference from your apparent stated qualification, why are future Novavax vaccine recipients somehow rated more highly or differently from those that already exist for Pfizer or AZ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 16, 2021, 01:29:12 pm
I personally think a lot of posturing on these forums is going to yield no meaningful result.

Most people passionate enough to state their position, have generally already made their choice, and no amount of talking about it is going to change it, and before anyone comes to me and states anything different to this, have a look at where we all sit on the coaching situation at Carlton.  We are similarly divided opinions rightly or wrongly.

@LP the only thing I am waiting on is a response regarding where you sit re vaccination, have you had yours?

Beyond that, I've had mine, but I'm siding with the Greeks who are currently protesting en masse who believe it shouldn't be made mandatory to function in society. 

I do believe people should have the right to choose, and whether or not that is natural selection at work will be another story.  The people who chose not to vaccinate, will find out soon enough whether or not it was the right decision but they should get their shot at their desired choice of vaccination whether it be right or wrong.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 16, 2021, 01:30:23 pm
Paul, you are making me sound like a Hippie driving a Kombie van and deriving my medical information from Snoop Dogs weed Dealer😀. I'm definitely not that and pro Western medicine and its very much just deciding which Western Medicine is best IMHO.
I just think with CoVid numbers low in Aus I can afford to wait a bit longer and make a more informed decision as more data become available. Hope you and the family stay healthy and virus free too....same to all our forum members.

My post was a general comment, and not aimed at anyone in particular. Let's face it, people only look for what supports their pre existing opinions. I can't think of one forum member, be they pro or anti vaccine, who has been swayed by anything on here to switch sides. Anyone who relies on a football forum for covid / medical advice has already donated their brain to science IMO. The medical establishment is big enough to be conflicting and contradictory, you can find studies that are pro / anti Ivermectin, studies that are pro / anti vaccine, all done by supposed experts in their field. What's a poor guy to do ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2021, 01:32:28 pm
@LP the only thing I am waiting on is a response regarding where you sit re vaccination, have you had yours?
Yes, as a posted weeks ago I've been vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 16, 2021, 01:34:06 pm
Yes, as a posted weeks ago I've been vaccinated.

I missed that post.

Which one did you get, AZ or Pfizer?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2021, 01:36:03 pm
I missed that post.

Which one did you get, AZ or Pfizer?
AZ was the only vaccine available in the country at the time I was vaccinated, there was no choice, and in any case I took the official recommendation and talked to my GP first who advised it makes no difference.

Interestingly, my GP mentioned just last week that all the vaccines now look like they'll need a booster at about 12 to 18 months after the first doses. When I asked him what happens if availability changes, because no doubt it will, he said it doesn't matter it can be whatever is available. He says the official position of no cross vaccination will eventually change because it's politically driven not health and science driven.

(I note as discussed with @ElwoodBlues1 above about Hep B, and like our common as muck Flu vaccines, many everyday vaccines are actually a blend of more than one type.)

But you may recall, I mentioned my GP volunteers(When I say volunteer, he is paid but freely chooses to do that work above his own commitments.) in Emergency Medicine at some big regional hospitals and has worked first hand in COVID ICU, without graphically stating it he thinks the non-vaccination alternative is unspeakable.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 16, 2021, 01:43:54 pm
AZ was the only vaccine available in the country at the time I was vaccinated, there was no choice, and in any case I took the official recommendation and talked to my GP first who advised it makes no difference.

Interestingly, my GP mentioned just last week that all the vaccines now look like they'll need a booster at about 12 to 18 months after the first doses. When I asked him what happens if availability changes, because no doubt it will, he said it doesn't matter it can be whatever is available. He says the official position of no cross vaccination will eventually change because it's politically driven not health and science driven.

But you may recall, I mentioned my GP volunteers in Emergency Medicine at some big regional hospitals and has worked first hand in COVID ICU, without graphically stating it he thinks the non-vaccination alternative is unspeakable.

I did something similar with my doc. I explained to him that within an hour of my first AZ jab, I could feel the effects, especially in tender areas of my carcass, areas of mild arthritis. He explained that wasn't the vaccine directly but my immune system responding/kicking into action - a normal, healthy response.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2021, 01:48:07 pm
I did something similar with my doc. I explained to him that within an hour of my first AZ jab, I could feel the effects, especially in tender areas of my carcass, areas of mild arthritis. He explained that wasn't the vaccine directly but my immune system responding/kicking into action - a normal, healthy response.
Yes, you can take comfort from that, because it means your own immune system is reacting. People who get no response at all are really left in a grey area about the vaccines usefulness for them, unless they eventually do an antibody test!

btw., I notice the UK is talking about rolling out antibody tests on a massive scale, the cheap swipe it on your tongue type, dribble on a stick type or diabetes like pin prick tests, that shows coloured lines like a pregnancy test. I think they are called lateral flow tests, or something like that. They want to find the people who are not yet protected by vaccination so they change try and things up for them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 16, 2021, 01:52:51 pm
How did you go with it any side effects?

When I got my second Pfizer, 48 hours later I felt a bit dizzy, loss of appetite, a bit nauseous, a bit hot cold, not feverish, but like I was subject to one, and didnt sleep very soundly (thanks to hot cold).  Sore arm, all the way up to the shoulder.

The nurse told me that they still arent sure how people of different genetic diversity will respond and that they are working hard to capture this information.


I got mine more out of duty to the workplace, and public than anything else.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 16, 2021, 01:56:42 pm
Nice line in an article in The Monthly underneath pictures of Gladys and SloMo:
Quote
The woman who refused to learn from the past and the man who failed to plan for the future.
Unfortunately, I can’t find the article to make sure I got the quote 100% right.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2021, 01:58:53 pm
How did you go with it any side effects?
For me I only had some localised swelling, perhaps I had some sore joints a few days later like a flu shot but at my age I get that anyway from any number of causes so how could I tell what caused it? I can't report any specific side effects other than the swelling without them being classed subjective.

My wife got some chills, and the next day had a few aches and pains again similar to the flu shot. She was a bit fatigued but she worries about that stuff, too much doom scrolling, so is it the shot or is it keeping herself awake worrying about it?

I've a colleague who has been on and off work after getting his shot, he claims it's the vaccine but I don't know which one he got, except that his symptoms started after he had a cardiac stress test and nearly fainted. He suffers from very low heart rate. It turns out the poor bastard, they got the stress test wrong the first time they did it and made him do it again a few minutes later, two in a row inside an hour, then after he got nausea and nearly fainted so they told him his feeling unwell wasn't normal it must be the vaccine. So now he thinks it's the vaccine and not their stuff up! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 16, 2021, 02:01:51 pm
Nice line in an article in The Monthly underneath pictures of Gladys and SloMo:Unfortunately, I can’t find the article to make sure I got the quote 100% right.

https://www.themonthly.com.au/today/rachel-withers/2021/15/2021/1626329203/twin-failings
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2021, 02:07:55 pm
Gladys is slowly and softly lowering NSW into the pit hell by a rope, while at the same time claiming that she's trying to save them.

Scotty, I have no idea what Scotty is doing, primarily because it seems on close inspection he is doing nothing at all!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz40vwcTGFo
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 16, 2021, 02:09:43 pm
Thanks Paul
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 16, 2021, 02:14:42 pm
Thanks Paul

👍
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 16, 2021, 02:26:47 pm
It'll be interesting to see how many people get their 2nd shots on some modified schedule other than the official schedule.

It turns out most of those timings are merely recommendations and not hard rules, 12 weeks, 6 weeks, 4 weeks whatever you've had or been told is not global or universal. It seems beyond about 4 weeks it is perhaps more about managing availability of the vaccine, than the efficacy of the treatment regime.

I do know it takes about 4 weeks for Antibodies or Killer-t cells to form, so about 4 weeks is the minimum.

An interesting thought, if the bulk of the population get vaccinated and someone doesn't, where does that leave them if the rest of the population can still be infected and transmissive without any obvious symptoms? I think this is where the Preppers will claim they should have already prepared the bomb shelter, because they are left surrounded by the Zombie masses!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on July 17, 2021, 12:32:19 am
I got my second AZ jab today (actually it was yesterday).  Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately), lockdown caused a rush at the old Ford factory and there was a queue snaking around the carpark. 

Folk like me who were getting their second AZ jab were called to a separate queue.  Although our queue was much shorter than the Pfizer queue, it moved at snail's pace and the Pfizer folk were getting done quickly.  Anyway, I got out of there an hour and a half after my scheduled appointment and that's not really worth complaining about in the overall scheme of things.

It was interesting to read Barwon Health posters confirming what my perusal of the scientific literature and the raw data indicate; there's virtually no difference between the efficacy and risks of AZ and Pfizer ... but that horse has bolted through the Government's inept handling.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 17, 2021, 09:30:54 am
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/16/englands-covid-unlocking-a-threat-to-the-world-experts-say
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 17, 2021, 11:22:47 am
Wow! Gladys' idea of tougher restrictions is asking people to "do x y an z if they can please" (ie a half pregnant lockdown). She has also shut down the construction industry which should cause some anarchy amongst the militant construction unions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 17, 2021, 11:23:55 am
According to Michael Smerconish (a Republican CNN host), hospital admissions for Covid are spiking in his hometown of LA but all of the admissions were unvaccinated.  Ironically, the anti-vaxxers will no doubt be spreading the news of the spike in admissions as proof that the vaccine doesn't work. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 17, 2021, 11:39:15 am
Wow! Gladys' idea of tougher restrictions is asking people to "do x y an z if they can please" (ie a half pregnant lockdown). She has also shut down the construction industry which should cause some anarchy amongst the militant construction unions.

Clueless. She just doesn't get it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 17, 2021, 11:59:55 am
So what is it about saying Gucci is an essential service that you just don’t get Baggers?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 17, 2021, 12:09:49 pm
As Queen sang "under pressure" ....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 17, 2021, 06:12:43 pm
Seems if you are a Celeb the rules are different during CoVid...Ms Caitlyn Jenner formerly Mr Bruce Jenner of Kardashian fame has just arrived in Australia to pocket half a mill to appear on that rubbish reality show Big Brother.
Yet you regularly see on the news/current affairs shows family of genuine Australian citizens unable to return home to due the strict rules to see very sick or dying loved ones, and these are  folk who have been vaccinated/tested.
Not sure where Ms Jenner is serving her Quarantine but I bet it isnt in your local Budget Motel with a TV Dinner for nourishment..
Wonder what that cost the TV network concerned to get approval for the wonderful Ms Jenner to grace us with her presence in these tough times, hope the money goes to those in need but thats unlikely....


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 17, 2021, 06:39:54 pm
Seems if you are a Celeb the rules are different during CoVid...Ms Caitlyn Jenner formerly Mr Bruce Jenner of Kardashian fame has just arrived in Australia to pocket half a mill to appear on that rubbish reality show Big Brother.
Yet you regularly see on the news/current affairs shows family of genuine Australian citizens unable to return home to due the strict rules to see very sick or dying loved ones, and these are  folk who have been vaccinated/tested.
Not sure where Ms Jenner is serving her Quarantine but I bet it isnt in your local Budget Motel with a TV Dinner for nourishment..
Wonder what that cost the TV network concerned to get approval for the wonderful Ms Jenner to grace us with her presence in these tough times, hope the money goes to those in need but thats unlikely....



Same with the silly bitch from from England who has come over to appear on it. She rubbished quarantine requirements and reckons covid is hoax. Turn her around and Fark her back off to the crapehole she came from I say.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 17, 2021, 06:58:49 pm
Isn't Jenner an "it"?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 17, 2021, 07:17:54 pm
It wasn't funny when Sam Newman tried it, and it isn't funny now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 17, 2021, 08:38:11 pm
TFB
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 18, 2021, 12:11:56 pm
Isn't Jenner an "it"?

Apparently trans women are real women too...

Despite the lack of bits required to be a woman and the pathology reports pointing to them being male.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 18, 2021, 12:46:31 pm
Maybe we need some term for females who can conceive. Instead of Miss or Mrs. Jane Doe, we could say Breeder Jane. And we don’t need any term for anyone else such as post-menopausal or infertile women, women who’ve had hysterectomies or trans women because they don’t count anyway. After all, females = babymakers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 18, 2021, 12:52:12 pm
I've worked with a number -- probably dozens -- of folks who identify as a different gender to their outward appearance. None of them had two heads. Strangely they all had only one head, coupla legs, two eyes and ears and more importantly they all, to a person, had feelings, fears, loves, joys, disappointments, hurts and so on. And they could all think. I guess it comes down to respect for the other and their perspectives  ;)  ;)  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 18, 2021, 01:00:32 pm
Cate McGregor was a decorated soldier before transitioning. Hard to see how a military man would choose to transition to a woman unless she felt compelled to do so. There was nothing flippant, attention-seeking or political about her decision.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 18, 2021, 01:09:33 pm
105 cases in NSW. Seems to be bouncing around 100 as experts predicted if the lockdown wasn’t a hard lockdown. Still around 30 cases who weren’t isolated before being tested.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 18, 2021, 01:39:17 pm
MBB, how's your mother in law ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on July 18, 2021, 01:39:59 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6PVIhGUYAIQz5V?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on July 18, 2021, 01:42:34 pm
MBB, how's your mother in law ?

Fine, driving back from Adelaide now, not sure why lol?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 18, 2021, 01:44:24 pm
Fine, driving back from Adelaide now, not sure why lol?

That's good news.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on July 18, 2021, 01:46:49 pm
Clearly whatever has come from Sydney and has locked as down again is worse than anything we've had before. When we locked down a couple of months ago we had cases at Marvel and the MCG and it didn't spread like this.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 18, 2021, 01:54:40 pm
But the experts have been screaming this from the rooftops for a long time. That’s why it was bizarre that the NSW Health Minister mused something to the effect of “Who knew how contagious this Delta variant is?” as the outbreak accelerated with fleeting contact spreading infections. Why didn’t Gladys realise that she couldn’t rely upon the previous rate of transmission in calibrating her response?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 18, 2021, 02:19:03 pm
After Ruby Princess, very very stupid.   
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 18, 2021, 07:08:28 pm
Clearly whatever has come from Sydney and has locked as down again is worse than anything we've had before. When we locked down a couple of months ago we had cases at Marvel and the MCG and it didn't spread like this.
Sydney haven't really locked down that hard, until yesterday all shops were still open, people were still roaming around malls and shopping precincts in the thousands.

That is why Delta spiked in NSW and not in Vic, the MCG and the AAMI park is a big concern now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 18, 2021, 07:11:02 pm
Same with the silly bitch from from England who has come over to appear on it. She rubbished quarantine requirements and reckons covid is hoax. Turn her around and Fark her back off to the crapehole she came from I say.
Ha! Ch7 has dumped the silly slag because of her antics. Back you to go crapville!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 19, 2021, 04:41:30 pm
The media are reporting the removalists that spread COVID-19 to Vic, have just had their 50yo mother die from COVID-19, I suppose the media inference is they killed their mum with COVID-19 but maybe she had it first!

That is why you get vaccinated people! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 19, 2021, 04:50:09 pm
The media are reporting the removalists that spread COVID-19 to Vic, have just had their 50yo mother die from COVID-19, I suppose the media inference is they killed their mum with COVID-19 but maybe she had it first!

That is why you get vaccinated people! :o

It's awful news either way, but I don't think these are the same removalists that travelled between Victoria and NSW. I think they only travelled within NSW.

https://www.2gb.com/breaking-mother-of-covid-positive-removalists-found-dead/

Nine News reporter Laura Tunstall told Luke Grant the COVID-positive brothers, who broke health orders by travelling to regional NSW while knowingly infected, were understood to be isolating with their mother.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 19, 2021, 05:00:01 pm
It's awful news either way, but I don't think these are the same removalists that travelled between Victoria and NSW. I think they only travelled within NSW.

https://www.2gb.com/breaking-mother-of-covid-positive-removalists-found-dead/

Nine News reporter Laura Tunstall told Luke Grant the COVID-positive brothers, who broke health orders by travelling to regional NSW while knowingly infected, were understood to be isolating with their mother.
Yes, awful news.

Initially Fairfax were claiming they were two of the crew that came to Vic and SA, but they have changed that to Central NSW.

I suppose they may be protecting their ID, as the media would be in breach if they allowed them to be identified for obvious reasons.

Interestingly, they allegedly continued working as removalists even after they had been advised they were COVID positive, I have nothing to add.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 19, 2021, 05:05:52 pm
Yes, awful news.

Initially Fairfax were claiming they were two of the crew that came to Vic and SA, but they have changed that to Central NSW.

I suppose they may be protecting their ID, as the media would be in breach if they allowed them to be identified for obvious reasons.

Interestingly, they allegedly continued working as removalists even after they had been advised they were COVID positive, I have nothing to add.

The removalists in question are claiming language barriers / difficulties. I normally avoid Sky News like the Plague - anyway............

https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/coronavirus/sydney-removalists-blame-language-barrier-after-being-accused-of-spreading-covid19-to-the-regions/news-story/eeaf479f44ba54cfec7c7ee0e9cdb916
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 19, 2021, 05:39:01 pm
The twin removalists have been identified and pictured in the paper... along with the tragic info that their mother, in her 50s, has been found deceased. She was alleged to be C19 positive and likely passed due to the virus.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 19, 2021, 10:06:47 pm
Interesting that Gladys doesn’t bother to acknowledge deaths and commiserate with the loved ones. Dan Andrews always did. Quite a comparison and the media has noticed.

There have been 5 deaths in NSW so far but you wouldn’t know it. The Health Dept spox deals with the deaths and this means it gets less coverage. Unfortunately for Gladys, the media was never going to allow the death of the removalists’ mother to be swept under the carpet.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on July 20, 2021, 01:11:15 am
Interesting that Gladys doesn’t bother to acknowledge deaths and commiserate with the loved ones. Dan Andrews always did. Quite a comparison and the media has noticed.

There have been 5 deaths in NSW so far but you wouldn’t know it. The Health Dept spox deals with the deaths and this means it gets less coverage. Unfortunately for Gladys, the media was never going to allow the death of the removalists’ mother to be swept under the carpet.

The news clip I saw showed them acknowledging the death.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 20, 2021, 07:19:47 am
Interesting that Gladys doesn’t bother to acknowledge deaths and commiserate with the loved ones. Dan Andrews always did. Quite a comparison and the media has noticed.

There have been 5 deaths in NSW so far but you wouldn’t know it. The Health Dept spox deals with the deaths and this means it gets less coverage. Unfortunately for Gladys, the media was never going to allow the death of the removalists’ mother to be swept under the carpet.

Actually, based on averages, there would have been circa 120 deaths in NSW yesterday.

But let's wet the bed over 1 death related to covid.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 20, 2021, 08:01:02 am
The current estimate of global COVID-19 mortality is 6 million to 10 million extra deaths over the last 12 months. Web utilities only offer rough estimates based on algorithms, so you find something like World-o-Meter reporting lower figures like 4.1 million deaths. But the effects of Sars-CoV-2 are not linear, so these estimates can be easily out by 50% to 100%, but they are close enough not to be an order of magnitude out.

In reality, it's a very hard number to find so you only ever find a wide range being reported, and usually coming from NGOs.

Interestingly, because of the wide variance in bureaucratic capabilities in different regions, some countries might not report accurate figures at all, or perhaps lag behind by 12 to 18 months.

Then there are regions that deliberately under or over-report for political purposes.

We've less deaths locally because of the actions of our health officials and political leaders, not that they can't do better, but at least most of them have done something. We are also lucky to be in a region with access to vaccines, which deliver a massive diminishing effect on the death rate.

But as I've mentioned before, the real long term worry is the effects of long COVID-19, and there should be a significant emphasis on finding therapies and treatments for people who suffer debilitating effects. Of course if a sufferer ends up with significant organ damage, there will be no therapy. The question is yet to be answered how much vaccination diminishes long COVID, not enough time has passed.

I've heard it stated that if you look up and down a typical local suburban street, there is between 1 in 10 and 1 in 20 people that for whatever reason cannot be vaccinated, I suppose those who can be vaccinated are their defenders. It's sort of like the inverse of war times, when a percentage left our shores to defend liberty for the rest of us!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 20, 2021, 08:16:19 am
The current estimate of global COVID-19 mortality is 6 million to 10 million extra deaths over the last 12 months.

Thanks to the non reporting from a certainly very detestable country to the north of us
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 20, 2021, 10:33:42 am
Thanks to the non reporting from a certainly very detestable country to the north of us
We just gave Indonesia one Billion dollars to help them with Covid. Same country who knock off all our fish and promote terrorism..
We also provide them with regular foreign aid as well apart from the Covid money..
Happy to help our little  Pacific Island friends, PNG etc but paying protection money to Indonesia is pathetic politics IMHO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 20, 2021, 11:20:57 am
https://www.smh.com.au/national/experts-blast-local-research-into-covid-treatments-decry-lack-of-effort-to-understand-vaccine-take-up-20210719-p58aw0.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 20, 2021, 11:32:42 am
Lockdown extended in Vic by 7 days. Had a laugh watching Dan Andrews dump on Sydney. He repeatedly stated that Covid was out of control in Sydney while advising that Victorians in Sydney can no longer return to Victoria as of right. They now need to seek permission to return on compassionate grounds if they don’t qualify under set exemptions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 20, 2021, 11:49:43 am
Happy to help our little  Pacific Island friends, PNG etc but paying protection money to Indonesia is pathetic politics IMHO.
I think they are very strong Allies in the battle with China, we should work more closely with them.

I've travelled there a lot, not just as a tourist but for business and when I say a lot I mean enough to learn the rudimentary language. For most Indonesians China is sworn enemy, they'll happily take the Chinese money, but you should not confuse Bureaucratic pork barrelling with acceptance or compliance. If the government or authorities try to make them compliant under Chinese Directives there would be an uprising, most Indonesians see China as stealing their jobs.

The terrorism stuff comes mostly from the Western Provinces, West Sumatra, Medan, Aceh, and leaks across from Malaysia and the continent that houses many alleged radicals like the BMI. Nearly all the Bali bombing stuff has it's roots in Malaysia or further north.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 20, 2021, 12:23:44 pm
Just to clarify, I was referring to the scum in China.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 20, 2021, 01:50:54 pm
There’s an interesting theory China’s drive to be the World’s dominant superpower might be thwarted by, of all things, a population crisis. You’d think with a billion people, they’d have nothing to fear on that score. But the 1 child policy has led to a population that’s aging with little prospect of an influx of migrants to address this issue. Unfortunately, this might drive China to achieve global dominance before it needs to redirect its attention inwards.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 20, 2021, 02:03:55 pm
1.4 billion @Mav :)  A freakin' lot.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 20, 2021, 02:21:59 pm
But the 1 child policy has led to a population that’s aging with little prospect of an influx of migrants to address this issue. Unfortunately, this might drive China to achieve global dominance before it needs to redirect its attention inwards.
They scrapped the 1 Child Policy 2016 but it didn't increase the birth-rate, now in May this year it's become one of each plus an extra.

However, they have a issue in that the youth are rapidly becoming westernised, and are likely to opt for wealth over family, I believe Sth Korea has a similar youth problem. The kids are growing up thinking an episode of "Friends" is normal, having a townhouse apartment with a 75" TV to yourself and eating in the café downstairs is what life is meant to be like!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 20, 2021, 05:01:34 pm
US media are labelling the Delta variant as The Pandemic of the Unvaccinated

In areas with low vaccination rates hospitalisation cases are up this week by as much as 40%, averaging 33% increase in states with less than 50% vaccination. If the Delta variant follows the same trend line of the other variants, US health officials have warned deaths will start rising about 2 to 3 weeks behind the hospitalisations.

In countries with high vaccination rates, places like Israel, the bulk of the rising new cases are coming from groups previously unvaccinated. In Israel's case this is the u16 age group who were previously excluded from getting Pfizer. Now they have lowered the age cut-off to 12.

This is the reality of Delta variant summed up in a picture, because it's infecting young people;

(https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/GettyImages-1233844176-800x532.jpeg)

Anthony Church says farewell to his daughter through a pain of glass, she is in hospital ICU recovering from COVID-19.

Feck that for a joke, go and get vaccinated!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 20, 2021, 07:32:54 pm
Yep, time to bring in vaccine mandates & vaccine passports. I’ll help to hold down Flyboy so he can get his jab.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 20, 2021, 08:15:53 pm
US media are labelling the Delta variant as The Pandemic of the Unvaccinated

In areas with low vaccination rates hospitalisation cases are up this week by as much as 40%, averaging 33% increase in states with less than 50% vaccination. If the Delta variant follows the same trend line of the other variants, US health officials have warned deaths will start rising about 2 to 3 weeks behind the hospitalisations.

In countries with high vaccination rates, places like Israel, the bulk of the rising new cases are coming from groups previously unvaccinated. In Israel's case this is the u16 age group who were previously excluded from getting Pfizer. Now they have lowered the age cut-off to 12.

This is the reality of Delta variant summed up in a picture, because it's infecting young people;

(https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/GettyImages-1233844176-800x532.jpeg)

Anthony Church says farewell to his daughter through a pain of glass, she is in hospital ICU recovering from COVID-19.

Feck that for a joke, go and get vaccinated!

Heart breaking to see that picture @LP ... how do you comfort that guy in such a scene
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 20, 2021, 08:52:18 pm
Apparently 40% of 0eople hospitalised with covid in the UK are double vaccinated.

Its not the shield people think it is.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 20, 2021, 09:11:29 pm
Apparently 40% of 0eople hospitalised with covid in the UK are double vaccinated.

Its not the shield people think it is.

The official statement (corrected from an earlier one) is that 60% of hospital admissions are unvvacinated, which means the remaining 40% would be either single dose or double dose. I don't think you can assume how many of those have received both shots. Being admitted to hospital is bad enough, but you'd need to see the severity of illness / symptoms, duration of stay in hospital etc. between the two groups to draw further conclusions. They're not all on the same level simply because they've been admitted. The other issue is long covid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 20, 2021, 09:33:59 pm
The official statement (corrected from an earlier one) is that 60% of hospital admissions are unvvacinated, which means the remaining 40% would be either single dose or double dose. I don't think you can assume how many of those have received both shots. Being admitted to hospital is bad enough, but you'd need to see the severity of illness / symptoms, duration of stay in hospital etc. between the two groups to draw further conclusions. They're not all on the same level simply because they've been admitted. The other issue is long covid.

Just passing on what I've heard.

I dont care about figures, I care about facts.

Fact.  The vaccine isn't a magic bullet fix for covid and guarantees nothing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 20, 2021, 09:50:28 pm
Just passing on what I've heard.

I dont care about figures, I care about facts.

Fact.  The vaccine isn't a magic bullet fix for covid and guarantees nothing.

I don't really know what to make of that. I find your second and third sentences rather strange to be honest. There may people somewhere on the planet that think the vaccines are a guarantee, but that is much more a comment on them. The amount of information out there on covid is suffocating. If after all that, those people still don't understand what a vaccine does, I'm not sure what else can be done to get through.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 20, 2021, 09:51:00 pm
Apparently 40% of 0eople hospitalised with covid in the UK are double vaccinated.

Its not the shield people think it is.
No vaccine has 100% efficacy, no vaccine has ever had 100% efficacy.

When you vaccinate whole country populations you still have hundreds of thousands of people that the vaccines won't work for, but you will still save or reduce the suffering of millions!

There is a term for sowing doubt about vaccines in the way some try, it's called Seeding Certain Uncertainty. The naysayers basically argue that the vaccine isn't perfect, so the inference is why bother, but nobody ever claimed the vaccines are perfect, and it is only the naysayers that try to assert imperfection is somehow unworthy or a fail.

The vaccines are overwhelmingly successful, there is no need to fear them and there is certainly no need to spread the seeds of doubt.

The hunt for perfection should never become the enemy of good or excellent.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 20, 2021, 10:07:29 pm
I don't really know what to make of that. I find your second and third sentences rather strange to be honest. There may people somewhere on the planet that think the vaccines are a guarantee, but that is much more a comment on them. The amount of information out there on covid is suffocating. If after all that, those people still don't understand what a vaccine does, I'm not sure what else can be done to get through.

You got an answer commensurate with your response.

People admitted to hospital are generally not well.

Its important that irrespective of vaccination rates our future is actually likely to be worse than we are seeing today.

As for sowing vaccine doubt, that is neither here nor there.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 20, 2021, 10:17:21 pm
....................................
People admitted to hospital are generally not well.

Its important that irrespective of vaccination rates our future is actually likely to be worse than we are seeing today.
..............................

Players on an AFL injury list are also not well. Some might only be on that list for a week, and other might be gone for 12 months. Not all hospital admissions are the same, and without comparing the various issues I mentioned above, it's difficult to say much more.

The whole point of mass vaccination is precisely to achieve a better future.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 20, 2021, 10:55:20 pm

Its important that irrespective of vaccination rates our future is actually likely to be worse than we are seeing today.
 .................. better than it could have been!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 20, 2021, 11:21:00 pm
If you two stopped arguing for an outcome and exercised a modicum of understanding you'd quickly discover the following thought process and point being made.

In a situation where nsw has 85 odd in icu off less than 5000 cases, in a future state where we are all vaccinated irrespective of Vaccination we are going to see rising hospitalisation off rising positive cases.

Even if this is a better outcome to the alternative (no this isn't an argument against Vaccination) the worst is still ahead of us and its a lot worse than our current state of being.

THAT is the fact.  Or are you guys too busy pushing an outcome that the reality of our situation hasn't dawned on you?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 20, 2021, 11:29:39 pm
THAT is the fact.  Or are you guys too busy pushing an outcome that the reality of our situation hasn't dawned on you?
It's not a certainty though that these cases will be ICU, long term hospitalisation of critical care, or that the ratios of severe to mild won't be adjusted by the vaccine, and there is no doubt there would be far far more without the vaccines.

Hospitals will thank the vaccine, much like the cheering crowds at Wimbledon thanking some of it's inventors, without the vaccine the consequence is unmanageable and unmentionable.

The assertion that things will get worse and that is someway a justification to decry the vaccines is ridiculous and bizarre coming from someone in the health industry. What other motive do you have for the drive by comment PaulP reacted to?

Sowing seeds of doubt is serious, somewhere someone will be petrified of the vaccine as a result of those inferences, and they will die. I'd even safely assert some already have forgone the opportunity to vaccinate and have died as a result!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 21, 2021, 07:00:59 am
If you two stopped arguing for an outcome and exercised a modicum of understanding you'd quickly discover the following thought process and point being made.

In a situation where nsw has 85 odd in icu off less than 5000 cases, in a future state where we are all vaccinated irrespective of Vaccination we are going to see rising hospitalisation off rising positive cases.

Even if this is a better outcome to the alternative (no this isn't an argument against Vaccination) the worst is still ahead of us and its a lot worse than our current state of being.

THAT is the fact.  Or are you guys too busy pushing an outcome that the reality of our situation hasn't dawned on you?

Where does the 85 in ICU number come from?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on July 21, 2021, 08:40:52 am
Just passing on what I've heard.

I dont care about figures, I care about facts.

Fact.  The vaccine isn't a magic bullet fix for covid and guarantees nothing.

Analysis carried out in the UK indicates:

> the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine is 96% effective against hospitalisation after 2 doses.

> the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine is 92% effective against hospitalisation after 2 doses.

Not perfect, but not bad.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 21, 2021, 08:52:22 am
Analysis carried out in the UK indicates:

> the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine is 96% effective against hospitalisation after 2 doses.

> the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine is 92% effective against hospitalisation after 2 doses.

Not perfect, but not bad.

If someone told me I had a 92% chance of winning Tattslotto this w/e, I'd dare to fantasize about how I'd spend the loot.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 21, 2021, 09:01:16 am
Remember, age is a massive variable. A double-vaccinated 80 year old only has the resistance of an unvaccinated 50 year old. That’s a massive improvement but there’s still plenty of room for infection. An article from a month or so ago claimed that no double-dosed under-50 year olds had died this year in the UK. If that’s still true, that would be a remarkable endorsement of vaccinations.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 21, 2021, 09:08:36 am
Interesting article by a science reporter from The Age:

Worried about AstraZeneca? Me too. The way we think about risk might be the problem (https://www.theage.com.au/national/worried-about-astrazeneca-me-too-the-way-we-think-about-risk-might-be-the-problem-20210720-p58beh.html), The Age.

Quote
I have spent nearly the entire pandemic reporting on the science of vaccines. The evidence leaves us in no doubt: they are one of humanity’s greatest medical inventions and are directly responsible for saving tens of millions of lives.
Hence, why I’m surprised that I find myself fretting just a little as I wait for Thursday – when I’m scheduled to get my first AstraZeneca jab.
I know the risk pales in comparison to others I take every day, yet I am worried about getting a blood clot and dying.
The answer to why this is – why I find myself worrying far more about AstraZeneca’s side effects than I probably should – reveals how our brains think about risk. And how they often get it wrong.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 21, 2021, 09:17:17 am
Analysis carried out in the UK indicates:

> the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine is 96% effective against hospitalisation after 2 doses.

> the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine is 92% effective against hospitalisation after 2 doses.

Not perfect, but not bad.

Meanwhile, 60% of hospitalised patients in the UK with COVID have been double vaxxed.

How that equates to 90%++ efficacy in stopping hospitalisation is anyone's guess.

Reeks of blatant lies.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1417615440327495684

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on July 21, 2021, 09:29:36 am
Meanwhile, 60% of hospitalised patients in the UK with COVID have been double vaxxed.

How that equates to 90%++ efficacy in stopping hospitalisation is anyone's guess.

Reeks of blatant lies.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1417615440327495684



Fake news Flyboy!

The corrected statement is 6 out of 10 people hospitalised with COVID aren’t vaccinated.  There’s no breakdown of the 4 out of 10 and it’s possible that 1 or even 2 out of 10 may be fully vaccinated, particularly if they are older folk.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 21, 2021, 09:31:23 am
If you two stopped arguing for an outcome and exercised a modicum of understanding you'd quickly discover the following thought process and point being made.

In a situation where nsw has 85 odd in icu off less than 5000 cases, in a future state where we are all vaccinated irrespective of Vaccination we are going to see rising hospitalisation off rising positive cases.

Even if this is a better outcome to the alternative (no this isn't an argument against Vaccination) the worst is still ahead of us and its a lot worse than our current state of being.

THAT is the fact.  Or are you guys too busy pushing an outcome that the reality of our situation hasn't dawned on you?

It seems that the underlying point of this post has been missed because this has disintegrated to a pro vax anti vax argument rather than a discussion about the over arching pandemic.

Are you people ignoring this on purpose?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on July 21, 2021, 09:44:12 am
It seems that the underlying point of this post has been missed because this has disintegrated to a pro vax anti vax argument rather than a discussion about the over arching pandemic.

Are you people ignoring this on purpose?


There is broad agreement among epidemiologists and infectious disease experts (including Prof Cheng on the wireless this morning) that mass vaccination is the only way to mitigate the impacts of COVID.  Your opinion is important but really doesn’t carry much weight in the context of expert scientific analysis.

Yes, people will still be infected with COVID, and some unfortunates will be hospitalised and some of them will die, but its impact will be greatly reduced and life will be closer to pre-COVID normal.

Analysis of ancient DNA has revealed that there was a COVID pandemic 25,000 years ago.  It lasted for 20,000 years!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 21, 2021, 10:09:54 am
Looking forward, I'm no expert but those English figures regarding hospital admissions don't suggest you can open up borders to everyone safely even with the majority fully vaccinated. With the virus mutating and spreading you are still going to have 30-40 % of folk at risk of being in hospital especially in the older range.
As Thry suggested it's not the panacea that governments are making it out to be and life won't be going back to normal anytime soon.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 21, 2021, 10:24:44 am
Looking forward, I'm no expert but those English figures regarding hospital admissions don't suggest you can open up borders to everyone safely even with the majority fully vaccinated. With the virus mutating and spreading you are still going to have 30-40 % of folk at risk of being in hospital especially in the older range.
As Thry suggested it's not the panacea that governments are making it out to be and life won't be going back to normal anytime soon.

The Delta strain seems every bit as concerning for the young.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 21, 2021, 10:32:36 am
As Thry suggested it's not the panacea that governments are making it out to be and life won't be going back to normal anytime soon.
Who in the official sphere told you it would return to as-was normal?

The officials talk about getting through it, they talk about resuming some semblance of normality, but they don't talk about things going back to the way it was. They do however mention the only chance of that happening is through vaccination, is that deliberately ambiguous or just a foible of language and comprehension.

The only people I can find making such a claim, that things can go back to as-was, are those promoting a throw in the towel position to let it run free. I presume they will be the same people screaming for doctors and scientists to help them as they or a family member is wheeled into the ICU, or suing hospitals because they didn't save a family member, or begging governments for disability compensation and assistance.

Bizarrely I gather none of us involved in this debate will be shocked if and when that happens to be a Karen, lifetime COVID Pension anyone?

If Thry wants to worry about hospitals filling up, it seems strange to want to exclude a discussion about vaccine hesitancy and the fake news circulated that promotes that vaccine hesitancy. To me that is the key issue, not just some ancillary issue. I gather from the other responses it's not just me that thinks that, but apparently those like minded individuals must also be mindless drones being herded like sheep by the "experts" who have concealed the true reality from us, a reality only discovered by the enlightened users of Instagram and FaceBook! ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 21, 2021, 10:55:47 am
This isn't about vaccine hesitancy, or what vaccine is better etc. This is the end game, numbers in hospitals from countries who are well advanced in their programs and close to the levels where experts say we need to be to stop lockdowns. My question is could you safely open up our borders based on those results in England?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 21, 2021, 10:57:23 am
Boris made the wrong call .... again.  47,000 new cases yesterday and 100 deaths?  Bumbling  idiot.  Instead of concentrating on ridiculous zero emissions you tool, control the current crisis.   




Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 21, 2021, 10:57:56 am
Who in the official sphere told you it would return to as-was normal?

The officials talk about getting through it, they talk about resuming some semblance of normality, but they don't talk about things going back to the way it was. They do however mention the only chance of that happening is through vaccination, is that deliberately ambiguous or just a foible of language and comprehension.

The only people I can find making such a claim, that things can go back to as-was, are those promoting a throw in the towel position to let it run free. I presume they will be the same people screaming for doctors and scientists to help them as they or a family member is wheeled into the ICU, or suing hospitals because they didn't save a family member, or begging governments for disability compensation and assistance.

Bizarrely I gather none of us involved in this debate will be shocked if and when that happens to be a Karen, lifetime COVID Pension anyone?

If Thry wants to worry about hospitals filling up, it seems strange to want to exclude a discussion about vaccine hesitancy and the fake news circulated that promotes that vaccine hesitancy. To me that is the key issue, not just some ancillary issue. I gather from the other responses it's not just me that thinks that, but apparently those like minded individuals must also be mindless drones being herded like sheep by the "experts" who have concealed the true reality from us, a reality only discovered by the enlightened users of Instagram and FaceBook! ::)

You really only see things one way dont you?

The hospitals are as important (if not more important) to focus on for some of us.

Why?  Well, some of us actually work in them for one thing, and for another, once COVID hits the hospitals ability to actually serve and protect ALL patients (irrespective of what is wrong with them) is going to come under some serious pressure in a way we have yet to really experience through this pandemic.

My underlying point, is with or without a successful vaccination program, the worst of this is ahead of us, and this means that people have time to prepare themselves for that eventually when it occurs, because right now, I see a lot of head in sand reactions from people, including those that thumb their nose at the pandemic and are travelling about because they are vacccinated. 

Lets not forget, there is still the capability for this thing to evolve again, and for our vaccination to be as useful as drying your hair in the shower. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 21, 2021, 11:13:01 am
Boris made the wrong call .... again.  47,000 new cases yesterday and 100 deaths?  Bumbling  idiot.  Instead of concentrating on ridiculous zero emissions you tool, control the current crisis.   





My cousins in England first thoughts after the lockdown was lifted was to head straight to the pub and make up for lost drinking time.
Its like the Pandemic never existed, Boris is a nuffy but he doesn't have much to work with in terms of brain cell numbers with the population.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 21, 2021, 11:47:18 am
Lets not forget, there is still the capability for this thing to evolve again, and for our vaccination to be as useful as drying your hair in the shower.
I agree entirely, and the chance of that happening greatly increases when less people are vaccinated.

This pandemic is not just about Delta, the current growing global outbreak will almost certainly be an aggregation of the original strain, the Alpha strain and the Delta strain, and the next deadly strain if one appears. None have died off, disappeared or evaporated as The Donald proselytised to the nutter hoards.

There are two very dangerous concepts in this debate, one is alluded to by Elwood discussing the behaviour of his UK relatives on Freedom Day, the other is that extinction is both a plan and a possibility. Both concepts promote complacency on a massive social scale, we will bid our time and then be set free!

The thought that the vaccinations aren't perfect should not be indirectly or incidentally inferring the idea of doing nothing while waiting for something better to come along, not acting is very dangerous and not incidental. Doing nothing is not the safe option.

As much resource should be piled into hospitals as is being piled on vaccine production, but unfortunately the historical evidence suggests that won't happen. The talisman of this current pandemic have been warning authorities since the 1990s, and have been ignored. The lockdowns, the restrictions, the vaccinations are a consequence of ignoring those warnings. Historically it is the political equivalent of waiting for your car to breakdown before you do a service.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 21, 2021, 12:02:30 pm
110 new locally acquired cases to 10pm last night in NSW. Gladys is doing a great job at maintaining the rate of around 700 new locally acquired cases per week. An applaudable consistency.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 21, 2021, 12:18:59 pm
What you say is right, Thryleon, but this just illustrates the dilemma when it comes to persuading the public to vaccinate.

If we treat vaccinated and unvaccinated people as the same, many people will think there’s no benefit to being vaccinated. Of course, the benefit is avoiding infection or reducing its severity but some people think they’re bulletproof anyway. If they can see that they’ll be able to travel more freely, for instance, then they’ll do it even if they don’t think they’re at risk. That’s a better carrot than lotteries or free beer. Well, maybe not better than free beer ...

Then we have the issue of the efficacy of the vaccine. Yes, there’s a risk of the vaccinated being overconfident, but there’s much more risk of the unvaccinated losing interest in the vaccine if its benefits aren’t clear. Anti-vaxxers would love to undermine confidence in vaccines by saying some vaccinated people die of Covid and implying there’s no benefit in being vaccinated. It would be a disaster if public health authorities in the face of such an anti-vaxxer campaign agreed that vaccination might not protect people.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on July 21, 2021, 01:05:30 pm
Are there any anti vaxxers here?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 21, 2021, 01:07:02 pm
22 new cases in Melbourne.
The Foo Fighters have just performed a concert and insisted on entry to Vaccinated fans only...Dave Grohl copping some flak from a few other muso's for discriminating against the non vaccinated. I guess thats his right though if he considers he is protecting his band, crew and fan base.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 21, 2021, 01:20:03 pm
The Foo Fighters have just performed a concert and insisted on entry to Vaccinated fans only...Dave Grohl copping some flak from a few other muso's for discriminating against the non vaccinated. I guess thats his right though if he considers he is protecting his band, crew and fan base.
As much as I understand the sentiment, I can't see how this can possibly be policed, it just sets up everyone for a plethora of fake vaccination certificates to deal with, etc., etc...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 21, 2021, 02:26:44 pm
As much as I understand the sentiment, I can't see how this can possibly be policed, it just sets up everyone for a plethora of fake vaccination certificates to deal with, etc., etc...
Was thinking the same, how do you check everyone and know their vacc credentials are valid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 21, 2021, 02:27:09 pm
Are there any anti vaxxers here?
Literally no one identifies as an anti-vaxxer.

I flicked between radio stations on the night before the Victorian lockdown searching for news about the outbreak. I had the misfortune to land on 3AW in time to hear a talkback caller blaming vaccines for all the deaths in the UK and claiming the “inventor” of the RNA vaccines had said they were unsafe to use prior to 3 or 4 years of clinical trials. The host shut him down, saying something to the effect of, ”Surely you’re not arguing against vaccines - they’re the only way out of this pandemic”. There was a pregnant pause and then the caller said, “I’m not an anti-vaxxer - I’m pro-choice!”

Anti-vaxxers have learnt from the right-wing playbook. Never admit what you’re against: always say you’re pro something that sounds nice. Don’t say you’re against Blacks voting - say you’re in favour of measures to stop electoral fraud. Don’t say you’re against restricting gun sales to dangerous people - say you’re in favour of gun rights or the 2nd Amendment.

Unfortunately, left-wingers tend to like being controversial and provocative. For example, whoever invented the slogan “Defund the Police!” should be shot. Few if any people were proposing this. Instead the proposal was to increase the amount spent on crime prevention, for instance by addressing mental illness rather than police with little experience in that area shooting people in the grips of psychosis. But you’d have to think the slogan took off because they wanted to piss off the police.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 21, 2021, 02:33:04 pm
Look up Lori Lightfoot, mayor of Chicago.  Frightening anti white racist.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 21, 2021, 02:38:56 pm
It's a funny thing, in many of the debates it's ultimately the truth that becomes the real victim.

Modern media is pretty weak at demanding accountability, the problem being that profit is mostly driven by the misnomer that all opinions are equal. It's the false equivalence issue raising it's head again!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 21, 2021, 02:49:16 pm
It's a funny thing, in many of the debates it's ultimately the truth that becomes the real victim.

Modern media is pretty weak at demanding accountability, the problem being that profit is mostly driven by the misnomer that all opinions are equal. It's the false equivalence issue raising it's head again!

Ignore the main-stream media and you'll be uninformed. Watch/listen/read the main-stream media and you'll be misinformed. Take the time to go to credible, objective sources.

Main-stream media summary: sensationalize, polarize, exaggerate, lie, divide, create fear = clicks. Clicks=loot. Loot = another yacht for owner along with power to influence media to be more sensational, polarizing, exaggerating, dishonest, divisive and fear mongering. The end.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on July 21, 2021, 05:08:28 pm
110 new locally acquired cases to 10pm last night in NSW. Gladys is doing a great job at maintaining the rate of around 700 new locally acquired cases per week. An applaudable consistency.

The University of Melbourne modelling team that has guided Victorian Government responses to COVID outbreaks has crunched the NSW numbers:

https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/how-long-till-sydney-gets-out-of-lockdown
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on July 21, 2021, 06:09:40 pm
Unfortunately, left-wingers tend to like being controversial and provocative. For example, whoever invented the slogan “Defund the Police!” should be shot. Few if any people were proposing this.

Since you brought it up, where was the left-wing in shouting this down at the time? Plenty have walked back on their statements post that time but there were not many front and centre when it was going on.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on July 21, 2021, 06:12:14 pm
Look up Lori Lightfoot, mayor of Chicago.  Frightening anti white racist.

Another creation from the left led entitlement factory. This is a key responsibility that the left is yet to acknowledge and more importantly act upon. If we are to focus on the right-wing nuts then I don't see why the left does not also clean house.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 21, 2021, 06:44:24 pm
There's nothing I could find on the internet about any racist issues with Lori Lightfoot. That business about banning white journos from the 2 year anniversary press conference sounds like a strange political stunt that went awry, and more likely an attempt to distract her disgruntled supporter base from what appears to be a lack of action on issues if import. The white journos have had access to every other opportunity to ask questions. Sounds like a beat up to me.

https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/lori-lightfoot-journalists-media/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 21, 2021, 06:56:39 pm
Since you brought it up, where was the left-wing in shouting this down at the time? Plenty have walked back on their statements post that time but there were not many front and centre when it was going on.
Disagree. Biden disowned it point-blank. And most just treated it as hyperbolic while explaining that they wanted more funding for crime prevention. By comparison, Republicans regularly refused to comment on the regular outrages committed by leader of the GOP, Trump, and his merryband of QAnon insurrectionists,

My problem with the slogan was that it didn’t even mean what it seemed to say. No one was seriously suggesting there would be no police, and the left needn’t take responsibility for anarchists who did. All it did was to give right wingers the chance to engage in their favourite sport: saying the left wingers would rape your kids and kill you where you stand.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 21, 2021, 06:57:16 pm
It isn't.  But think what you like.  I don't care @PaulP
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 21, 2021, 07:52:15 pm
Literally no one identifies as an anti-vaxxer.

I flicked between radio stations on the night before the Victorian lockdown searching for news about the outbreak. I had the misfortune to land on 3AW in time to hear a talkback caller blaming vaccines for all the deaths in the UK and claiming the “inventor” of the RNA vaccines had said they were unsafe to use prior to 3 or 4 years of clinical trials. The host shut him down, saying something to the effect of, ”Surely you’re not arguing against vaccines - they’re the only way out of this pandemic”. There was a pregnant pause and then the caller said, “I’m not an anti-vaxxer - I’m pro-choice!”

Anti-vaxxers have learnt from the right-wing playbook. Never admit what you’re against: always say you’re pro something that sounds nice. Don’t say you’re against Blacks voting - say you’re in favour of measures to stop electoral fraud. Don’t say you’re against restricting gun sales to dangerous people - say you’re in favour of gun rights or the 2nd Amendment.

Unfortunately, left-wingers tend to like being controversial and provocative. For example, whoever invented the slogan “Defund the Police!” should be shot. Few if any people were proposing this. Instead the proposal was to increase the amount spent on crime prevention, for instance by addressing mental illness rather than police with little experience in that area shooting people in the grips of psychosis. But you’d have to think the slogan took off because they wanted to piss off the police.

Thats one way to silence all opposing thought by discrediting the person before they have spoken.

If people don't want a vaccine their entitled to not get one.
At worst its natural selection at work, at best it will prove the vaccine effectiveness vs not getting one.

IMHO, this is a failing of left wingers.  They paint everyone as wrong and them as right.

The Greeks had the right idea.  An enlightened mind will entertain an idea without accepting it and opposition thought should always be encouraged to validate your thoughts.  After all, an idea is only proven correct or incorrect if challenged.  Anything else is propaganda.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on July 21, 2021, 08:19:24 pm
Thats one way to silence all opposing thought by discrediting the person before they have spoken.

If people don't want a vaccine their entitled to not get one.
At worst its natural selection at work, at best it will prove the vaccine effectiveness vs not getting one.
Possibly Thry, but they should pay a penalty for not doing their part for the common good; no welfare payments, no air travel, no attending public gatherings, sporting events, live music, etc.

IMHO, this is a failing of left wingers.  They paint everyone as wrong and them as right.
Isn't that what fundamentalists of most persuasions do?  It's a failing to single out any group, faction, society or population for perceived faults.

The Greeks had the right idea.  An enlightened mind will entertain an idea without accepting it and opposition thought should always be encouraged to validate your thoughts.  After all, an idea is only proven correct or incorrect if challenged.  Anything else is propaganda.
It's all well and good to encourage free-thinking, but we're not talking about ideas.  It's scientific method vs conjecture.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 21, 2021, 08:20:51 pm
So right wingers don’t paint everyone else as wrong  :-*  :-*

Here’s a tip: don’t watch FoxNews or SkyNews or listen to Alan Jones and his ilk.

The problem with your ode to libertarianism is that anti-vaxxers are pushing propaganda and misinformation rather than trying to contribute to debate. And vaccine refusal risks the health of the rest of the population. By all means, if someone wants to smoke cigarettes, let them. But if they want to smoke in restaurants or the like then there are clashing individual freedoms, the right to smoke vs. the right to avoid 2nd-hand smoke.

You argued a while back that we should let Covid rip after those that wanted a vaccine had been vaccinated. Underpinning your argument was the idea that the vaccinated would then be safe. But we’ve all been debating the significance of breakthrough infections for the last few days: they do occur, so the unvaccinated do endanger the vaccinated. And the more the unvaccinated are infected, the greater the risk that there’ll be mutations that beat the vaccine.

Just get the damn jab.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 21, 2021, 08:35:49 pm
@DJC
1.  They are paying a penalty.  They are effectively gambling with their health.  The vaccine doesnt stop spreading, therefore, getting vaccinated will likely not change how this thing moves.

2.  True enough, but only the left seem to use this tool.  It attacks the person not the idea.  A clock is still right twice a day even if it is broken.

3. Scientific method is fine, but even scientists agree that there is more than one way to do science and it would be unscientific not to question the science.  Food for thought there, our early modelling of covid made an assumption each positive case ends up with an ICU admission.  Our understanding of this has already changed.  We also have discovered asymptomatic spreading.  Our testing for that has and has not changed.  Symptoms still seem to be the dictation of when someone gets tested (unless near a confirmed positive case) when we should be prophylactic testing everyone in the more at risk settings.

Anyway, here is a quote:

Quote
The practices of science

But it’s not time to forget everything we thought we knew about how scientists work, says Heidi Schweingruber. She should know. She’s the deputy director of the Board on Science Education at the National Research Council, in Washington, D.C.

In the future, she says, students and teachers will be encouraged to think not about the scientific method, but instead about “practices of science” — or the many ways in which scientists look for answers.

Schweingruber and her colleagues recently developed a new set of national guidelines that highlight the practices central to how students should learn science.

“In the past, students have largely been taught there’s one way to do science,” she says. “It’s been reduced to ‘Here are the five steps, and this is how every scientist does it.’“

But that one-size-fits-all approach doesn’t reflect how scientists in different fields actually “do” science, she says.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 21, 2021, 08:38:44 pm
So right wingers don’t paint everyone else as wrong  :-*  :-*

Here’s a tip: don’t watch FoxNews or SkyNews or listen to Alan Jones and his ilk.

The problem with your ode to libertarianism is that anti-vaxxers are pushing propaganda and misinformation rather than trying to contribute to debate. And vaccine refusal risks the health of the rest of the population. By all means, if someone wants to smoke cigarettes, let them. But if they want to smoke in restaurants or the like then there are clashing individual freedoms, the right to smoke vs. the right to avoid 2nd-hand smoke.

You argued a while back that we should let Covid rip after those that wanted a vaccine had been vaccinated. Underpinning your argument was the idea that the vaccinated would then be safe. But we’ve all been debating the significance of breakthrough infections for the last few days: they do occur, so the unvaccinated do endanger the vaccinated. And the more the unvaccinated are infected, the greater the risk that there’ll be mutations that beat the vaccine.

Just get the damn jab.



We are still going to have to let this thing rip, with or without vaccination, seems to only change whom is protected to what level.

Vaccination against COVID is dangerous for some people.  That's no reason to not do it.  You are effectively applying the same argument in reverse.

Therefore our arguments are more on the same page, than not, just applied differently.  Ergo, we are both arguing against ourselves because neither can assert a position of correct, because what is right changes depending on your perspective.


I am not absolving right wingers, but you start with the position of attacking them to discredit them because they are right wingers.  Right wing ideals do have valid arguments, irrespective of if you agree with them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 21, 2021, 08:54:16 pm
As you noted, our arguments aren’t diametrically opposed and that was true of our earlier discussion. I have no problems with such discussions. But you’d have to admit the right wingers in the US aren’t engaged in good faith arguments. For instance, all the FoxNews hosts are vaccinated and the channel has Covid protocols. Murdoch cancelled his 80th birthday party for fear of catching Covid. And yet their hosts bash the vaccine relentlessly, disputing its efficacy and alleging various conspiracies about it. Even though Trump could have claimed credit for the vaccine program, Republicans and other right wingers are increasingly spurning the vaccine and right wingers are ecstatic about that. It seems that “owning the libs” is all that matters and they’re willing to die for that privilege.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 21, 2021, 09:34:01 pm
And now there’s another Greek letter to worry about ... Lambda. And I’m not talking eigenvalues in linear algebra.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 21, 2021, 09:45:44 pm
As you noted, our arguments aren’t diametrically opposed and that was true of our earlier discussion. I have no problems with such discussions. But you’d have to admit the right wingers in the US aren’t engaged in good faith arguments. For instance, all the FoxNews hosts are vaccinated and the channel has Covid protocols. Murdoch cancelled his 80th birthday party for fear of catching Covid. And yet their hosts bash the vaccine relentlessly, disputing its efficacy and alleging various conspiracies about it. Even though Trump could have claimed credit for the vaccine program, Republicans and other right wingers are increasingly spurning the vaccine and right wingers are ecstatic about that. It seems that “owning the libs” is all that matters and they’re willing to die for that privilege.

I cant really comment on the states.  I see them as the current version of lets say the Roman Empire.  They are a waning empire, and I see evidence of the sphere of influence shifting over to China, and I haven't personally dismissed that this pandemic was launched by the States, in a false flag effort to point the finger at China for releasing said virus (if it is indeed man made).  Before anyone shouts this down, I am training in cyber security and this theory is in line with geopolitics and who is the bigger players in that space, and how they act.  USA uses attack as a form of defense, and that makes sense when you consider that most cyber technology was developed there giving them an edge.

With the news (this also applies to sports news), I came up with a simple formula a long time ago.  Propaganda.  Own the media, own the worlds opinion.  This is also a hall mark of the French Revolution which powers the people machine for an outcome.  You can topple governments with propaganda alone, because people will do it for you.

I do believe people should be encouraged to free think.  Pushing an opinion one way or another is IMHO, not encouraging people to use the brain power they possess and simply reduces everyone to a lemming.  That is a problem for me. 

I have taken the vaccine.  I made my choice, based on my factors, but fundamentally, the COVID risk is largely one I have been told about.  Numbers on the news statistics, and no real first hand knowledge of whether or not people have COVID, something and COVID etc.  I have heard people coughing and it sounds rough, but at the same time, its no worse than any other nasty cough I have heard someone have.  I have generally had to place my faith that this is all legitimate, real, and that the numbers are not a complete fabrication, in spite of what I have witnessed first hand, and the clear juxtaposition it shows me regarding the threat both perceived and qualified with data that could very well be painted with a certain light.  It is not helpful that I know first hand information of anyone who has become COVID positive but not seriously sick, and I don't necessarily want to find out that way either which makes things difficult from a belief perspective.  Before anyone refutes this, its a bit like knowing someone died.  There is a state of denial we go into where we cant really believe it, which is why I personally believe that mourning periods run for 40 days.  It is about coming to terms with it all, and skipping through the stages of grief, but this is also personal and different people get there on their own steam.

I got vaccinated, but I did so, for reasons that I came to the conclusion of my own volition using free thinking, and arrived at that conclusion.  I think that on a fundamental level, this should be encouraged, and any enforcement of vaccination serves only to make people not want it.  If you ever want to see that psychology at work force anyone to do something they arent sure about, and you quickly meet a more stubborn response and push back.  You want to see a population of anti vaxxer, from what I can see the quickest way to arrive there is force vaccination. 


The opposing ideals are very loud in my personal circles.  They range from a variety of sources both in the health care industry, and from non health care industries.  No one ever believes they are wrong, and arguing with them, is akin to having teeth pulled, because the counter arguments are dismissed before they are even heard.  Thing is they dont spout pseudo science.  I see them sharing videos such as how ethanol oxide is a carcinogen and is used to sterilise the swabs that people take when tested, and how this could contribute to a variety of cancers along the way.  I recognise this is imperfect, hence why I seem to sit on the fence a bit.  We simply ignore one risk for another, and all it takes is for someone to miss one risk (human error which is more likely to kill us than anything else from what I have witnessed) and we end up doing more harm than good, because we are focussed on one outcome.  The saying the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Look, on a carlton forum its generally what I call a conversational think tank.  A place for people to raise some questions, not be dismissed as a subset of general society.  Its anonymous and people like myself come here to test theories that are much harder to discuss in the real world where the consequences are a bit more permanent (particularly when it comes to asking about Covid).

Oh and before we get to Lambda, we will go from Delta to Epsilon, Zeta, Theta, Iota, Kappa (its an alphabet I know explicitly, so will be interesting if we ever get to Omega).

;)


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 21, 2021, 10:22:01 pm
Let’s hope it doesn’t get to Omega. In Star Trek canon, the Omega particle was capable of extinguishing all life.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 21, 2021, 10:28:47 pm
Let’s hope it doesn’t get to Omega. In Star Trek canon, the Omega particle was capable of extinguishing all life.

Good one Seven
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on July 21, 2021, 11:13:00 pm
It doesn't seem that long ago that we were discussing India, the virulence of the Delta strain and how well or how bad India was handling the pandemic.

It seems that COVID may be "modern India's worst human tragedy."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-21/india-covid-deaths-could-be-in-the-millions/100310602?utm_medium=social&utm_content=sf247814345&utm_campaign=fb_abc_news&utm_source=m.facebook.com&sf247814345=1&fbclid=IwAR2EuaETn3eGfGNnIQce__WyEYFKMo_hn3Bpwp9WkeUZMMpMfpN9iwvaqrQ
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 21, 2021, 11:21:33 pm
It doesn't seem that long ago that we were discussing India, the virulence of the Delta strain and how well or how bad India was handling the pandemic.

It seems that COVID may be "modern India's worst human tragedy."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-21/india-covid-deaths-could-be-in-the-millions/100310602?utm_medium=social&utm_content=sf247814345&utm_campaign=fb_abc_news&utm_source=m.facebook.com&sf247814345=1&fbclid=IwAR2EuaETn3eGfGNnIQce__WyEYFKMo_hn3Bpwp9WkeUZMMpMfpN9iwvaqrQ

Yes.  Calm the public.  Utter nonsense
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 22, 2021, 08:05:02 am
The University of Melbourne modelling team that has guided Victorian Government responses to COVID outbreaks has crunched the NSW numbers:

https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/how-long-till-sydney-gets-out-of-lockdown
It's highly likely there are departments in both the State and Federal Health authorities that already had these types of figures, ............... and yet they can't pull the triggers!

Imagine the complaints if people were told 6 to 8 weeks from the get go, but we have to go early and hard, otherwise it's going to be 5 months!

What happened to just telling the public the truth?

I complain about naysayers and deniers being merchants of doubt, I think in our leaders we have a electoral college of certain uncertainty!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on July 22, 2021, 09:07:37 am
It's highly likely there are departments in both the State and Federal Health authorities that already had these types of figures, ............... and yet they can't pull the triggers!

Imagine the complaints if people were told 6 to 8 weeks from the get go, but we have to go early and hard, otherwise it's going to be 5 months!

What happened to just telling the public the truth?

I complain about naysayers and deniers being merchants of doubt, I think in our leaders we have a electoral college of certain uncertainty!

The modelling team offers their services to any governments, free of charge.  Their work is fascinating and it’s incredible how slight changes to a variable will result in very different outcomes.

Best of all, they’re so open and transparent with their work.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 22, 2021, 09:58:07 am
The University of Melbourne modelling team that has guided Victorian Government responses to COVID outbreaks has crunched the NSW numbers:

https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/how-long-till-sydney-gets-out-of-lockdown

Great article, thank you, David. (I trust you realise my comment about Gladys doing a great job with her consistency to keep daily nos high was heavily laced with sarcasm  ;) ) So had Gladys adopted the VIC model from the get-go how many weeks of lockdown & lockdown lite could have been avoided?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 22, 2021, 02:54:33 pm
Interesting developments.

In the US, conservative politicians and media are starting to advocate vaccination. Previously, FoxNews’ nighttime hosts were anti-vaxxers and you’d have to think management was supporting or orchestrating that for ratings and therefore $$. But Sean Hannity has now told viewers he has been vaccinated and it’s safe and effective, urging viewers to do the same. Chris Ruddy, owner of Newsmax, has released an editorial extolling vaccinations. Ron DeSantis, Governor of Florida and a Republican leading the chase to be the Republican Presidential candidate in 2024 has begged Floridians to vaccinate, saying that just about all of the recent admissions to hosputal were unvaccinated. Mitch McConnell, GOP Senate leader, and Steve Scalise, GOP deputy leader in the House, have both joined in calls to vaccinate. This is a welcome development even if Trump supporters might be unmoved. Why now? Maybe conservatives are realising they don’t want to go to the 2022 midterms as the anti-vaxxer party, especially after Biden used his bully pulpit to call them out.

It also seems that Singapore has backflipped on its “learn to live with Covid” strategy, according to News.com.au. Only 4 days ago, restrictions were relaxed, e.g. groups of 5 vaccinated people could eat in restaurants (up from 2) and 5 people could socialise. But Covid then spiked and now restrictions have been reintroduced, e.g. only takeaway food is allowed and groups of more than 2 are prohibited.
https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/global/singapore-reintroduces-covid19-restrictions-days-after-relaxing-rules/news-story/d9ec0e764ce24e0279a2bf7c2fba1d45 (https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/global/singapore-reintroduces-covid19-restrictions-days-after-relaxing-rules/news-story/d9ec0e764ce24e0279a2bf7c2fba1d45)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 22, 2021, 03:30:00 pm
It also seems that Singapore has backflipped on its “learn to live with Covid” strategy, according to News.com.au. Only 4 days ago, restrictions were relaxed, e.g. groups of 5 vaccinated people could eat in restaurants (up from 2) and 5 people could socialise. But Covid then spiked and now restrictions have been reintroduced, e.g. only takeaway food is allowed and groups of more than 2 are prohibited.
https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/global/singapore-reintroduces-covid19-restrictions-days-after-relaxing-rules/news-story/d9ec0e764ce24e0279a2bf7c2fba1d45 (https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/global/singapore-reintroduces-covid19-restrictions-days-after-relaxing-rules/news-story/d9ec0e764ce24e0279a2bf7c2fba1d45)
Ignoring what is happening in most places this is a hell of a tell. I'd say Singapore was "The Gold Standard" for Sars-CoV-2 preparedness, having learned the lessons of the original Sars. Then just a few weeks back they were all in with the UK in calling for borders to be opened up to save the economies, and now as you point out Singapore has flipped. I think it's a safe bet the UK might be back in the bleachers soon as well.

A lot of this is because they see the infected average age dropping very quickly, ICU's are no longer the preserve of +65 year olds or the chronically ill comorbidities, we are seeing otherwise healthy 20 or 30 somethings starting to fill beds.

Then there is the rising infection rate in the under 16 sector, which for the original strains was almost rarer than hens teeth, but is now becoming common place.

I am cynical though, because I suspect the aging bureaucrats and politicians no longer see themselves getting priority access to an ICU bed when they may be competing for slots with children and youths. So now they are "Ya'll better get a vaccine!"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 22, 2021, 04:19:58 pm
Ignoring what is happening in most places this is a hell of a tell. I'd say Singapore was "The Gold Standard" for Sars-CoV-2 preparedness, having learned the lessons of the original Sars. Then just a few weeks back they were all in with the UK in calling for borders to be opened up to save the economies, and now as you point out Singapore has flipped. I think it's a safe bet the UK might be back in the bleachers soon as well.

A lot of this is because they see the infected average age dropping very quickly, ICU's are no longer the preserve of +65 year olds or the chronically ill comorbidities, we are seeing otherwise healthy 20 or 30 somethings starting to fill beds.

Then there is the rising infection rate in the under 16 sector, which for the original strains was almost rarer than hens teeth, but is now becoming common place.

I am cynical though, because I suspect the aging bureaucrats and politicians no longer see themselves getting priority access to an ICU bed when they may be competing for slots with children and youths. So now they are "Ya'll better get a vaccine!"

The whole use of the term 'infection' is a con if you're basing it on positive PCR test results. Without clinical diagnosis.

Here in Victoria, with the fabulous BGI (B = Beijing) PCR test:

"Any result up to Ct of 40 is considered positive. Cycle thresholds of 40-45 are examined with further testing."

https://health.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2020/06/post-market-validation-of-the-beijing-genomics-institute-bgi-sars-cov-2-real-time-pcr-platform.pdf

NSW run their tests at up to 40 to 45x cycles.

The great Fauci says, in This Week in Virology this month:

“If you get a cycle threshold of 35 or more … the chances of it being replication-competent are minuscule.”

Which is backed up by the science.

Quote
At a ct of 30, 20% of samples remained positive; at a ct of 35, 3% ; "at a ct above 35, no sample remained positive (infectious) in cell culture.

Other studies suggest a lower cycle threshold number is necessary for some level of validity:

https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/71/10/2663/5842165

Quote
SARS-CoV-2 Vero cell infectivity was only observed for RT-PCR Ct < 24 and STT < 8 days. Infectivity of patients with Ct > 24 and duration of symptoms > 8 days may be low. This information can inform public health policy and guide clinical...

Kary Mullis himself said 20x (which is 2 to the power of 20 remember) was the maximum that should be used.

Essentially 100% false positives at cycle threshold numbers of 35 or more.

https://swprs.org/the-trouble-with-pcr-tests/

Moreover, as the WHO states:

Quote
The cycle threshold needed to detect virus is inversely proportional to the patient’s viral load. Where test results do not correspond with clinical presentation, a new specimen should be taken and retested using the same or different NAT [Nucleic Acid Technology] technology.

And this is why the pollies get to muck around with our lives at their whim - off the back of an unfit for purpose test, never designed or meant for diagnostic purposes.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 22, 2021, 05:15:19 pm
There is no conspiracy, just some conspiracists with a very poor understanding of how the testing works, cherry picking isolated facts and twisting them painted in a technical veneer.

Discussing PCR cycle thresholds is a distraction and diversion, labs only proceed to calculate the viral load after a positive detection, primarily because the system is deliberately weighted towards false positives which is the safe option, but these are all filtered out when viral loads are calculated.

Firstly, the labs just do not have the time to test all the samples collected to a deep thermal cycle threshold. Most are processing using the system defaults of 20 to 30 thermal cycles(equipment dependant) requiring between 30min to 60min to complete a PCR run.

The typical systems use 20 to 30 thermal cycles, the reports comparing the BGI PCR system are discussing the ability of the BGI to replicate the sensitivity and accuracy of the existing systems as part of a validation against systems most of which are not BGI. But even so it does not mean the BGI PCR systems are run to a high number of cycles as asserted by some detractor claims.

I believe the default BGI PCR use 30 cycles, the validation claim is that at 30 cycles the BGI will miss cases with very low viral load, not report false positives at a much higher rate. One cause/outcome is not the inversion of the other, asserting that the BGI needs more cycles to achieve low level sensitivity leads to more false positives is a false equivalence, because they just don't use it that way!

Secondly, the process is false positive biased at about 3% of all positives are false positives, and that is at the calibrated run length for the default of 20 to 30 thermal cycles(equipment dependant), so too many more cycles and you get a false positive anyway which is clearly not the case give how many positives are reported as a percentage of all tests. Do enough cycles with any machine and you get a false positive, which is why positive results are always repeated.

Finally, verification typically occurs by other means/methods and can take several days to complete, this is when you get confirmations of both viral load and the variant. After verification, the false positive rate falls from 3% of all positives to about 1 in 10000 of all positives, hardly an earth shattering conspiracy! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 22, 2021, 05:23:52 pm
https://www.9news.com.au/national/australia-astrazeneca-vaccine-two-deaths-recorded-in-past-week-from-rare-blood-clotting-disorder/7605e3d5-29fc-4408-9638-b08b2ccca39f

6 Deaths from AstraZ vs 5 Deaths from the Delta Variant?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 22, 2021, 06:22:32 pm
https://www.9news.com.au/national/australia-astrazeneca-vaccine-two-deaths-recorded-in-past-week-from-rare-blood-clotting-disorder/7605e3d5-29fc-4408-9638-b08b2ccca39f

6 5 Deaths from AstraZ vs 5 Deaths from the Delta Variant?
EFA
https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/two-more-deaths-linked-to-astrazeneca-vaccine
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 22, 2021, 08:07:53 pm
I’m keen to apply EB’s statistical analysis to other real world causes of death.

We think of nuclear weapons being scary, but if you total all deaths from firearms/guns compared to nuclear weapons since gunpowder was invented, it’s clear that firearms/guns have caused many, many times more deaths than nuclear weapons. Clearly, firearms/guns should be banned and private ownership of nuclear weapons should be allowed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 22, 2021, 08:57:21 pm
I’m keen to apply EB’s statistical analysis to other real world causes of death.

We think of nuclear weapons being scary, but if you total all deaths from firearms/guns compared to nuclear weapons since gunpowder was invented, it’s clear that firearms/guns have caused many, many times more deaths than nuclear weapons. Clearly, firearms/guns should be banned and private ownership of nuclear weapons should be allowed.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki had about 100k of their citizens welded into the landscape who probably wouldnt agree with you.....
Nuclear testing in the USA contributed to about 340-460k excess deaths over a 20 odd year period..
This link also reports on the effects of Nuclear weapons.....you might like to apply your analytical skills and report back.
https://www.gcsp.ch/global-insights/75-years-later-nuclear-weapons-still-kill
Kim Jong Un is a big believer in Private ownership of Nuclear weapons, loves a bit of recreational ballistic missile fun does KJ....you always see him at his happiest when he has just let one fly, you are in good company with your theory on Private ownership.
https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/korea-703886.jpg.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 22, 2021, 09:06:04 pm
5-11 million Russians died in action in WW2 and none from nuclear weapons. And guns/firearms have been killing people in armed conflict as well as civilian conflicts for a millenium.    
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 22, 2021, 09:39:05 pm
5-11 million Russians died in action in WW2 and none from nuclear weapons. And guns/firearms have been killing people in armed conflict as well as civilian conflicts for a millenium.    
From memory the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS had MG42's, 88's and the odd Tiger tank, no nuclear weapons to fire unfortunately for them. I'm sure if they had a couple of Ballistic Missiles that they would have stayed at home with the fire on, a good schnapps and just pushed a few buttons, closest they got were the V1 and V2 rockets but alas for them the war was lost at that stage.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 22, 2021, 10:09:07 pm
From memory the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS had MG42's, 88's and the odd Tiger tank, no nuclear weapons to fire unfortunately for them. I'm sure if they had a couple of Ballistic Missiles that they would have stayed at home with the fire on, a good schnapps and just pushed a few buttons, closest they got were the V1 and V2 rockets but alas for them the war was lost at that stage.

Some estimate that Stalin was responsible for 20 million Russian deaths. Made the Germans look like amateurs.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 22, 2021, 10:19:05 pm
I guess you could argue that the dearth of death from nuclear weapons might be due to them being available only in 1945, the fact that most countries don't have access to them, and the restraint by those that have have them. So, maybe it isn't fair to compare nuclear weapon deaths given that guns have been available for a millennium and the enthusiasm countries and individuals have demonstrated towards using them on each other.

But I guess that means we need to compare apples with apples when we cite statistics.

You compared deaths attributed to AZ over 6 months in Australia to deaths in NSW from Covid over a month (and most infections were more recent than that). There's little point looking at deaths outside that period in NSW (and Australia) given the elimination strategy had been successful for months before that. The vaccination program was all about preparing for what happens when the elimination strategy ends or fails. However bad the Covid crisis might be in NSW now, it's nothing compared to what would happen if Covid runs rampant throughout not only NSW but Australia (but the Australia-wide death toll of 915 might be a better indicator). That's when deaths would mount, but AZ might reduce that death toll. That means the comparison you make isn't a great metric.

Maybe the best metric might be the number of deaths attributable to AZ vs. lives saved by it. But even that would fail to account for serious long-Covid illness. 

I wonder how many lives epidemiologists would say were and will be saved by the AZ vaccine, especially if Covid ends up circulating freely?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 22, 2021, 10:29:17 pm
closest they got were the V1 and V2 rockets but alas for them the war was lost at that stage.

Once America was involved, it was all over. 



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 22, 2021, 10:35:04 pm
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 22, 2021, 11:00:49 pm

[/quote]
I guess you could argue that the dearth of death from nuclear weapons might be due to them being available only in 1945, the fact that most countries don't have access to them, and the restraint by those that have have them. So, maybe it isn't fair to compare nuclear weapon deaths given that guns have been available for a millennium and the enthusiasm countries and individuals have demonstrated towards using them on each other.

But I guess that means we need to compare apples with apples when we cite statistics.

You compared deaths attributed to AZ over 6 months in Australia to deaths in NSW from Covid over a month (and most infections were more recent than that). There's little point looking at deaths outside that period in NSW (and Australia) given the elimination strategy had been successful for months before that. The vaccination program was all about preparing for what happens when the elimination strategy ends or fails. However bad the Covid crisis might be in NSW now, it's nothing compared to what would happen if Covid runs rampant throughout not only NSW but Australia (but the Australia-wide death toll of 915 might be a better indicator). That's when deaths would mount, but AZ might reduce that death toll. That means the comparison you make isn't a great metric.

Maybe the best metric might be the number of deaths attributable to AZ vs. lives saved by it. But even that would fail to account for serious long-Covid illness. 

I wonder how many lives epidemiologists would say were and will be saved by the AZ vaccine, especially if Covid ends up circulating freely?

I'm interested in deaths from the new variant Delta which is causing us the problems now vs deaths from the vaccines and in particular the age groups. I'm wondering why a Prime Minister with no medical qualifications would encourage people to get get jabbed with a vaccine that ATAGI his vaccine advisory group have said is only suitable for over 60's.
He wants to alter their advice to fit his political agenda, It’s a constant appeal, I can assure you,” Morrison said......his constant appeal has cost a 44 and a 48 year old their lives IMO. Morrison IMHO has been putting unfair pressure on ATAGI and avoiding his responsibility for the lack of Pfizer for the age groups ATAGI designated.
My issue isnt with AstraZ vs Pfizer etc its with a PM trying to play catchup politics by putting other Australians at greater risk..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 22, 2021, 11:07:47 pm
I definitely agree Scotty from Marketing should have spread the risk by sourcing a number of different vaccines.  Snubbing Pfizer was disastrous.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 22, 2021, 11:13:39 pm
Once America was involved, it was all over. 




They only got involved when the Japs got ahead of themselves and attacked Pearl Harbor, they were happy to keep supplying everyone with equipment, keep the war running and make a dollar out of everyone. Hitler made the wrong move attacking Russia, he could have attacked England instead , would have won that easy but attacked Russia and it was downhill from there.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 22, 2021, 11:19:43 pm
Yep EB .... two wars on two fronts.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on July 23, 2021, 12:16:20 am
They only got involved when the Japs got ahead of themselves and attacked Pearl Harbor, they were happy to keep supplying everyone with equipment, keep the war running and make a dollar out of everyone. Hitler made the wrong move attacking Russia, he could have attacked England instead , would have won that easy but attacked Russia and it was downhill from there.


Operation Sealion - the invasion of Britain - was cancelled in Sep 1940 when Luftwaffe losses from the Battle of Britain were so great that the invasion could not succeed.

Operation Barbarossa - the invasion of Russia - began on 22 Jun 1941, long after Hitler had given up on invading Britain.

As for Pearl Harbour, the Japanese didn't get "ahead of themselves", all three US Pacific fleet carriers were at sea when the Japanese attacked.  The war could have taken a very different course if the carriers had been sunk at Pearl Harbour.  Neutralising  the US Navy's Pacific fleet was a key element of Japan's strategy, and they nearly pulled it off.

The US provided military equipment to the Allies via Lend-Lease which meant that no payments were required until the end of the war.  The US was the recipient of reverse Lend-Lease military equipment from Britain after it entered the war.  It was actually in the USA's interest to end the war quickly so they could get payment, hence their insistence on the bringing D-Day forward.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on July 23, 2021, 12:45:47 am
Interesting the figures in Dr John Campbells video. He was saying 67% vaccinated in the UK.

https://youtu.be/Jv3Q74CLU1c
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 23, 2021, 02:02:13 am
Operation Sealion - the invasion of Britain - was cancelled in Sep 1940 when Luftwaffe losses from the Battle of Britain were so great that the invasion could not succeed.

Operation Barbarossa - the invasion of Russia - began on 22 Jun 1941, long after Hitler had given up on invading Britain.

As for Pearl Harbour, the Japanese didn't get "ahead of themselves", all three US Pacific fleet carriers were at sea when the Japanese attacked.  The war could have taken a very different course if the carriers had been sunk at Pearl Harbour.  Neutralising  the US Navy's Pacific fleet was a key element of Japan's strategy, and they nearly pulled it off.

The US provided military equipment to the Allies via Lend-Lease which meant that no payments were required until the end of the war.  The US was the recipient of reverse Lend-Lease military equipment from Britain after it entered the war.  It was actually in the USA's interest to end the war quickly so they could get payment, hence their insistence on the bringing D-Day forward.
I know about the lend lease agreement and yes the USA didn't supply arms. I'm talking American industry, Henry Ford was a nazi supporter and had factories in Europe run by American managers as did GM, Ford sold the Germans parts and aircraft lubricants.
GM supplied motors for Nazi trucks, Standard Oil were also supplying oil for fuels. They were disgraceful and used Panamanian flagged boats to ship it.

Ford even pressured the govt not to bomb his factories and got a compo package after the war worth millions because they did get bombed. Reported that Hitler had a photo of Henry Ford at the Reichstag and loved the bloke. Was that bad that the American troops found GMs sub brand Opel had been building motors and aircraft when they invaded Europe..
Roosevelt wanted Ford to up production at home but instead they were focused on their euro business. Ford was asked to build Rolls Royce Merlin engines but Henry himself knocked back the idea.
Those companies copped scrutiny after the war but hired a heap of legal teams to deflect the flak.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 23, 2021, 08:11:54 am
    On the 7 News tonight, 2 interesting stats were given:
    • 6 million AZ doses have been administered in Australia.
    • According to a WHO advisor, In UK the 18-24 year olds are the age category with most infections of Delta over the last month, followed by the 5-18 year olds.
Did you know if you handed out 6,000,000 bags of peanuts to a random sample of population, you'd have 150,000 hospitalisations from allergic reactions of which you'd get 750 adult deaths and up to 3,000 infant deaths. :o

Sort of makes the risk from the scientifically formulated free vaccine injection seem pretty low, mother nature is pretty deadly though!

Do they still leave bowls of peanuts as a free snack on some bars?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 23, 2021, 08:31:36 am
Interesting the figures in Dr John Campbells video. He was saying 67% vaccinated in the UK.

https://youtu.be/Jv3Q74CLU1c
Nice link @spf‍ , really helps people understand herd immunity and the benefits of vaccination, as long as not too many of the population decide to leave getting a vaccination up to somebody else! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 23, 2021, 08:57:54 am
There is no conspiracy, just some conspiracists with a very poor understanding of how the testing works, cherry picking isolated facts and twisting them painted in a technical veneer.

Discussing PCR cycle thresholds is a distraction and diversion, labs only proceed to calculate the viral load after a positive detection, primarily because the system is deliberately weighted towards false positives which is the safe option, but these are all filtered out when viral loads are calculated.

Firstly, the labs just do not have the time to test all the samples collected to a deep thermal cycle threshold. Most are processing using the system defaults of 20 to 30 thermal cycles(equipment dependant) requiring between 30min to 60min to complete a PCR run.

The typical systems use 20 to 30 thermal cycles, the reports comparing the BGI PCR system are discussing the ability of the BGI to replicate the sensitivity and accuracy of the existing systems as part of a validation against systems most of which are not BGI. But even so it does not mean the BGI PCR systems are run to a high number of cycles as asserted by some detractor claims.

I believe the default BGI PCR use 30 cycles, the validation claim is that at 30 cycles the BGI will miss cases with very low viral load, not report false positives at a much higher rate. One cause/outcome is not the inversion of the other, asserting that the BGI needs more cycles to achieve low level sensitivity leads to more false positives is a false equivalence, because they just don't use it that way!

Secondly, the process is false positive biased at about 3% of all positives are false positives, and that is at the calibrated run length for the default of 20 to 30 thermal cycles(equipment dependant), so too many more cycles and you get a false positive anyway which is clearly not the case give how many positives are reported as a percentage of all tests. Do enough cycles with any machine and you get a false positive, which is why positive results are always repeated.

Finally, verification typically occurs by other means/methods and can take several days to complete, this is when you get confirmations of both viral load and the variant. After verification, the false positive rate falls from 3% of all positives to about 1 in 10000 of all positives, hardly an earth shattering conspiracy! :o

That looks to be a rather self serving response.

The ad hominem attack - I know more than you so butt out - classic LP.

The default BGI # of cycles - as per the manufacturer's specs - 38x.

Talking about 20-30 cycles blah blah is straw man stuff - from what very little information is released here and in NSW, it is undeniably clear that 40+ is common.

They wouldn't proclaim they were running tests at 40-45x if the vast majority weren't. Factoid.

Are some run at 20-30? Possibly.

But the fact remains that the greater majority of positive testees are showing little or no symptoms - which strongly suggests little or no viral load which strongly suggests more cycles are being run.

What is a positive detection in any event? Yes, well let's not forget all the PCR test is amplify a given sample, nothing more, nothing less.

And there's a matching with some sort of pre installed primer.

Verification? Of what, the PCR positive? By what means? And what are you verifying? You can't by definition verify a flawed test.

And given you're so good at stats, you'd know that it in a low prevalence population, where there is little virus, the % of false positives is very likely to be high - to the point numerically, that every result could well be a false positive.

You claim ongoing, later verification - likely true. Though i'd like to see what they do...

But by then the damage has already been done right.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 23, 2021, 09:42:25 am
I still find myself somewhat surprised that there are some brains out there that believe comparing the number of folks who sadly pass away after a vaccine with those who pass from the virus, is a legitimate comparison??? Wouldn't you compare, if you must, the numbers of those who died from the vaccine with the number of folks 'saved' by the vaccine???

In the interest of disclosure, I am p1ss poor at algebra, advanced mathematics and so on. In fact during such lessons at school I was the kid daydreaming, putting live crickets down the shirt of the girl sitting in front of me or doing imitation farts. After form 4 at Frankston High School we could drop all math subjects before going on to year 11. Ripper. I was more your science, psychology and sociology/anthropology nerd... oh, and sport, mmmm sport.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 23, 2021, 10:06:03 am
That looks to be a rather self serving response.

The ad hominem attack - I know more than you so butt out - classic LP.

The default BGI # of cycles - as per the manufacturer's specs - 38x.

Talking about 20-30 cycles blah blah is straw man stuff - from what very little information is released here and in NSW, it is undeniably clear that 40+ is common.

They wouldn't proclaim they were running tests at 40-45x if the vast majority weren't. Factoid.

Are some run at 20-30? Possibly.

But the fact remains that the greater majority of positive testees are showing little or no symptoms - which strongly suggests little or no viral load which strongly suggests more cycles are being run.

What is a positive detection in any event? Yes, well let's not forget all the PCR test is amplify a given sample, nothing more, nothing less.

And there's a matching with some sort of pre installed primer.

Verification? Of what, the PCR positive? By what means? And what are you verifying? You can't by definition verify a flawed test.

And given you're so good at stats, you'd know that it in a low prevalence population, where there is little virus, the % of false positives is very likely to be high - to the point numerically, that every result could well be a false positive.

You claim ongoing, later verification - likely true. Though i'd like to see what they do...

But by then the damage has already been done right.


FB, no need to lead with 'self-serving' comment to the Spotted One before making your legitimate point. Though I do get it... El Spotto can come across as a know-all (look who's talking FFS). When I first joined this forum I thought he was an app that would automatically have an opinion on everything, absolutely everything. BUT, what I've come to understand and respect is an obvious high intelligence and legitimate concern for his fellows. Likewise, you. Both your opinions are valued.

Back to Covid. I recall very vividly your strong concern and care for your kids. And when I heard and read of what this Delta strain is doing to the young and very young I immediately thought of my grandson and your kids and the kids of my family & friends. The vaccines and the strategies to get them into everyone and the strategies (lockdowns) to protect as many people as possible could very well be the things that will protect your kids. And I believe kids are at increased risk of long-covid.

I now ask myself what is the next mutation of virus? First, elderly/sick/diabetics/immune compromised are the most vulnerable. Then Delta comes along, far more transmissible and increasingly dangerous to our young. Our vaccines may be chasing this pr1ck of a virus for years and years... but I'd rather give myself a fighting chance with a vaccine AND I'd rather wear a mask at every opportunity to protect others from my exhalations/sneezes/coughs etc. should I get the damn thing... and be asymptomatic. If I'm at a supermarket, kids are playing near me and I sneeze into my mask & sleeve... well, thank fck for that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 23, 2021, 10:07:42 am
    On the 7 News tonight, 2 interesting stats were given:
    • 6 million AZ doses have been administered in Australia.
    • According to a WHO advisor, In UK the 18-24 year olds are the age category with most infections of Delta over the last month, followed by the 5-18 year olds.

This is good data but what is the impact of these infections is a more important question from where I sit.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 23, 2021, 10:33:14 am
This is good data but what is the impact of these infections is a more important question from where I sit.
Watch the video @spf‍ linked above, the UK doctor touches on the difference in symptoms between unvaccinated and vaccinated and why that is an important distinction when discussing infections in both groups. It's a first class plain language summary.

To summarise if you've not got the time to watch it.

 - The infection in vaccinated groups are mostly producing trivial symptoms, headaches, runny nose, sore throat.

 - The infections in unvaccinated groups are increasing in under 30s but decreasing in unvaccinated overall, probably due to the reduced availability of infection targets, UK 67% fully vaccinated so naturally there are less unvaccinated to infect.

 - Under 30s now form a higher percentage of hospitalisations and ICU critical care for Delta variant.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 23, 2021, 10:41:26 am
That looks to be a rather self serving response.

The ad hominem attack - I know more than you so butt out - classic LP.
I can fully see why you think my criticism is personal, I'm criticising global behaviours that you seem to locally replicate! ;)

Oddly there is nothing in the document that you link to support your claims, it's primarily a discussion on the calibration and verification of various PCR systems / methods and how they compare.

Posting lengthy documents to seemingly support spurious claims just by the documents presence, to add a semblance of technical or scientific credibility, it is a fairly obvious and repeated tactic by lobbyist groups going back to the tobacco industry that published pages and pages of documents accompanied by heavily distorted summaries. Of course if anybody actually reads the whole document they quickly know the truth.

Oddly, versions of many of the points I listed are even contained in the very document linked which supports my conclusions, has it not been read by the naysayers or are they just deliberately cherry-picking headlines or a brief segments of the summary to support the distorted conclusions they publish?

It is a bit like arguing infections are up in heavily vaccinated regions, without clarifying the case severity or viral loads, given that many infections in vaccinated individuals only present very mild or no symptoms, it can only be assumed the naysayer claims are a deliberate distortion to try and discredit the effectiveness of vaccines. Reminds me of Pete Evans.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 23, 2021, 11:32:34 am
The dissertations on this topic are endless.  I'm heartily sick of it, but I'm hardly alone either.

Nonetheless, life (such as it is) goes on.  Hopefully not with China.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 23, 2021, 11:58:11 am
https://www.9news.com.au/national/australia-astrazeneca-vaccine-two-deaths-recorded-in-past-week-from-rare-blood-clotting-disorder/7605e3d5-29fc-4408-9638-b08b2ccca39f

6 Deaths from AstraZ vs 5 Deaths from the Delta Variant?
There may well only be 5 deaths to date from NSW COVID cases in recent times, maybe 6 now according to the news today.

But as the doctor in the video linked in the earlier (https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=4922.msg343176#msg343176) @spf‍ message (https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=4922.msg343176#msg343176) points out, COVID deaths lag hospitalisations by a few weeks, and deaths can explode when the hospital system gets overrun.

How many hundreds or thousands of COVID cases a day can Australian hospitals deal with if we ignore the warnings and then by chance the flood gates open?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 23, 2021, 12:12:41 pm
Gladys calling for the vaccination program to be ‘refocused’. Does that mean redirecting vaccine supplies to Sydney?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 23, 2021, 12:14:52 pm
Gladys calling for the vaccination program to be ‘refocused’. Does that mean redirecting vaccine supplies to Sydney?
Probably. They need to get it under control in NSW or we will ALL suffer the consequences.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 23, 2021, 12:17:00 pm
Gladys calling for the vaccination program to be ‘refocused’. Does that mean redirecting vaccine supplies to Sydney?
Do you sense the shift in blame?

They are softly / indirectly claiming the Sydney problem is the fault of the Feds and general public for not being vaccinated, and nothing to do with the lack of NSW State Gov action. "We tried to help you, but we couldn't because of the Feds, or because you wouldn't be helped or help yourself, so now it's everybody's problem!"

FFS, just a week or so ago responding to a question from a reporter about the relative lack of action / lockdown in NSW compared to Vic, Gladys implied Victoria was negligent and acted / overreacted inappropriately! She was still trying to paint NSW as the gold standard, I saw that as placing a bet in case good fortune favoured the path they had chosen, .............. but she lost and with her we all lost because she was betting with everybody's welfare not just the welfare of NSW!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 23, 2021, 12:18:21 pm
Probably. They need to get it under control in NSW or we will ALL suffer the consequences.
It's going to happen anyway, those statements are just laying the political groundwork to obfuscate blame.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 23, 2021, 12:32:02 pm
Politicians are simply not geared to engineer positive outcomes to emergencies.   But hey, don't worry, climate change is the priority.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 23, 2021, 12:55:27 pm
So here are some observations that I can state with some confidence after watching SPF's video (this might come across a bit anti vax, but bear with me and look past that, because its apparent vaccinations are going to on balance of scales, achieve better outcomes rather than worse with one question mark which Ill arrive at towards the end).

1.  Vaccinations or not, the worst of this is still ahead of us as a nation. 

2.  Lockdowns and restrictions to daily life are largely a necessary evil and will only be more severe and restrictive in the future.

3.  Vaccinations are absolutely going to look like a worse outcome in the short term, because its clear to see that any side effects we are having are going to outweigh the infections, and hospitalisation (at least in the short term) as a result of covid, simply because of a numbers game.  The only way that relationship flips, is if we let it rip.

4.  Vaccination is going to protect you better than not being protected (unless it hurts you).

5.   There is still a very real possibility, that once we get a fair way down this journey, the evolution of Covid could be horrendous and we are worse off.

I think its important that people do what they need to in order to protect themselves, and their loved ones.  I dont think covid is going away, and this thing is here to stay with the only real question mark being how bad is this going to get (and news flash, we have only just scratched the surface of this one as a nation).

I think the coming winter in the UK is going to be the most illuminating part of this as we are roughly 2 years behind the rest of the world with this, and anyone who tells you they know how this is going to pan out, is largely talking out of their backsides.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 23, 2021, 01:11:24 pm
3.  Vaccinations are absolutely going to look like a worse outcome in the short term, because its clear to see that any side effects we are having are going to outweigh the infections, and hospitalisation (at least in the short term) as a result of covid, simply because of a numbers game.  The only way that relationship flips, is if we let it rip.

4.  Vaccination is going to protect you better than not being protected (unless it hurts you).
The problem I have with this #3 perspective is that it is basically stated in ignorance of the flip side of the actions of any vaccine, that is keeping hospitalisation numbers low by reducing / preventing severe disease.

It's a weird sort of an argument, like claiming you can use a gun to stop the enemy killing you, like the cause and event is unidirectional.

It's an argument that you virtually contradict in point #4, but that also is asymmetrical because #4 without explicitly stating it implies the risk from the vaccine and Sars-CoV-2 is equal or proportional, but it isn't.

I think as Mav, Baggers or DJC pointed out before, the correct way to look at this what would be the outcome of 6 Million COVID cases versus 6 Million vaccinations. It's a fair question and a very fair comparison to make, because without vaccination we will eventually get to 6 Million COVID cases based on current Sars-CoV-2 virality, it would only be a matter of time. Should we do that math based on global averages?

Actually, I've heard the #3 argument before, .............. it's a dressed up something like the NRA claiming more guns will mean less crime, where they completely ignore the criminal effects of having more guns available?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on July 23, 2021, 01:25:25 pm
Binchicken is a snake and has gotten lucky too many times (Ruby princess, etc) and hopefully this is it.

she is doing a good job of saying it's the FEd's fault now and even the language of Chant 'National emergency' - ah ha - so you were both sniping Vic from the sidelines our long lockdown last year and Binchicken even had the audacity to be smug about Vic's success last week or the week before, and now oh it's a national emergency? not your incompetency? nor your no guts to actually do what needed to be done to reign it in before numbers exploded?

HOpefully the good of this will see her and scumo fighting, pair of dirty rats. 

How is anyone still saying Scumo is doing a good job, it is bewildering.  he and binchicken have both ridden a wave of luck and i cant believe people aren't seeing thru their bullcrap.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 23, 2021, 01:37:29 pm
https://theconversation.com/a-major-ivermectin-study-has-been-withdrawn-so-what-now-for-the-controversial-drug-164627
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 23, 2021, 01:40:11 pm
https://theconversation.com/a-major-ivermectin-study-has-been-withdrawn-so-what-now-for-the-controversial-drug-164627
Sell your shares, if you're an investor it's yet another failed bet.

Bad luck for those selling boot loads of the fake stuff from gymnasium carparks, getting some comeuppance like the bog roll hoarders! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 23, 2021, 01:49:46 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/national/unqualified-and-dishonest-the-experts-who-undermined-confidence-in-astrazeneca-will-cost-australians-lives-20210722-p58c1f.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 23, 2021, 01:57:35 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/national/unqualified-and-dishonest-the-experts-who-undermined-confidence-in-astrazeneca-will-cost-australians-lives-20210722-p58c1f.html
Thanks for the link @PaulP‍.

Yet it feels a bit dishonest also for the SMH crew to now be reporting from this perspective, it reads like an "I didn't do it!" moment.

Not sure if anyone agrees, but I've sensed a shift in the Fairfax position once Delta started showing up as impacting younger victims. News Ltd resisted longer, but now even the far right commentators are swinging.

Not that the News Ltd people do it with any significant amount of empathy or community mindedness. Paraphrasing Andrew Bolt for example, he is now basically stating "Let's all get vaccinated so we can throw open the flood gates for the naysayers to suffer their chosen fate and perish!" This is the guy that spent months telling us Sars-CoV-2 wasn't as bad as the annual flu, now he's asking us to let it loose so it can kill everybody who is keeping us in lockdown.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 23, 2021, 02:01:02 pm
On the political side of things, as dissatisfied as we are with the actions of many and hold an expectation for change, history tends to favour incumbents in times of plague, pestilence and conflict.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 23, 2021, 02:05:13 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/national/unqualified-and-dishonest-the-experts-who-undermined-confidence-in-astrazeneca-will-cost-australians-lives-20210722-p58c1f.html
Quote
Proof of the strategy appeared to be in the pudding.
>:(

OMG, has a saying ever been more mangled? The proof is never in the pudding unless police are investigating whether a poisoned pudding did someone in. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 23, 2021, 02:07:10 pm
>:(

OMG, has a saying ever been more mangled? The proof is never in the pudding unless police are investigating whether a poisoned pudding did someone in. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Come on @Mav‍ you have to love a twice mangled mixed metaphorical tautology, nothing is better than embedding a tongue twister into the proof.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 23, 2021, 02:19:25 pm
When I first joined this forum I thought he was an app that would automatically have an opinion on everything, absolutely everything.
@Baggers‍ 
https://youtu.be/SxBkN5UsPz0?t=3
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 23, 2021, 02:24:24 pm
I love how some sayings degenerate over time.

Everyone knows the saying, “The exception proves the rule.” It’s used by people to suggest that a few instances that defy the rule make the rule more credible. But it actually means that if you exclude things inconsistent with the rule in the statement of the rule, you end up with a rule that you can show to be true. So “With the exception of some marsupials, mammals don’t lay eggs” is true and useful (unless I’ve missed some others).

An even better example is, “All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?” :D

Funny how things end up meaning the opposite ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 23, 2021, 02:32:46 pm
@Baggers‍
https://youtu.be/SxBkN5UsPz0?t=3

 :))  :))  :))  :))  glad you took my observations about your good self with the good-hearted spirit with which they were intended.  ;)  ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 23, 2021, 02:38:18 pm
Binchicken is a snake and has gotten lucky too many times (Ruby princess, etc) and hopefully this is it.

she is doing a good job of saying it's the FEd's fault now and even the language of Chant 'National emergency' - ah ha - so you were both sniping Vic from the sidelines our long lockdown last year and Binchicken even had the audacity to be smug about Vic's success last week or the week before, and now oh it's a national emergency? not your incompetency? nor your no guts to actually do what needed to be done to reign it in before numbers exploded?

HOpefully the good of this will see her and scumo fighting, pair of dirty rats. 

How is anyone still saying Scumo is doing a good job, it is bewildering.  he and binchicken have both ridden a wave of luck and i cant believe people aren't seeing thru their bullcrap.
How long will Big M tolerate Berrijekylandhyde "slagging" him and his government?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 23, 2021, 02:41:13 pm
The problem I have with this #3 perspective is that it is basically stated in ignorance of the flip side of the actions of any vaccine, that is keeping hospitalisation numbers low by reducing / preventing severe disease.

It's a weird sort of an argument, like claiming you can use a gun to stop the enemy killing you, like the cause and event is unidirectional.

It's an argument that you virtually contradict in point #4, but that also is asymmetrical because #4 without explicitly stating it implies the risk from the vaccine and Sars-CoV-2 is equal or proportional, but it isn't.

I think as Mav, Baggers or DJC pointed out before, the correct way to look at this what would be the outcome of 6 Million COVID cases versus 6 Million vaccinations. It's a fair question and a very fair comparison to make, because without vaccination we will eventually get to 6 Million COVID cases based on current Sars-CoV-2 virality, it would only be a matter of time. Should we do that math based on global averages?

Actually, I've heard the #3 argument before, .............. it's a dressed up something like the NRA claiming more guns will mean less crime, where they completely ignore the criminal effects of having more guns available?

Like I said, understand the way the data works, and youll arrive at the conclusion.

25 million double vaccinated people will yield x amount of deaths (currently .009 of 6 million).

Covids numbers are similar in our population, and this is an argument that will be hijacked (much like you have here) and the point was made to show you how this is going to be presented (is being presented).

#4 doesnt contradict it.  They are both true observations of how this is going to pan out.

Just call me predicting the future.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 23, 2021, 02:59:48 pm
25 million double vaccinated people will yield x amount of deaths (currently .009 of 6 million).
Are there any vaccine related deaths from the second dose?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 23, 2021, 04:57:46 pm
Sell your shares, if you're an investor it's yet another failed bet.

Bad luck for those selling boot loads of the fake stuff from gymnasium carparks, getting some comeuppance like the bog roll hoarders! :o

Biggest beat up ever.

The study was withdrawn before the author was given the opportunity to address/respond to the alleged deficiencies.

And even if dodgy stuff was going on with that study, it doesn't effect the veracity of every other study.

The stuff works but actions like this are uber convenient for big pharma and governments.

https://c19ivermectin.com/



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 23, 2021, 06:26:40 pm
Biggest beat up ever.

The study was withdrawn before the author was given the opportunity to address/respond to the alleged deficiencies.

And even if dodgy stuff was going on with that study, it doesn't effect the veracity of every other study.

The stuff works but actions like this are uber convenient for big pharma and governments.

https://c19ivermectin.com/






60 peer reviewed studies 56 (93.6%) of which report POSITIVE EFFECTS.

The random chance of these studies being wrong is a whopping 1 in 2TRILLION. 

I rest my case.

Watch video here - https://fb.watch/v/WPDs8WGj/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 23, 2021, 07:37:09 pm
Surely at least 2 gazillion to 1 ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 23, 2021, 08:22:03 pm
Are there any vaccine related deaths from the second dose?

No idea but the data doesn't lie.  If we continue eliminating covid before we let it rip then the numbers will initially show that the vaccine is as dangerous as the disease and that will absolutely without a shadow of a doubt change once we let it rip (which is a fair accompli).

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 23, 2021, 10:17:10 pm
I had to laugh:
NSW police commissioner confirms Premier declined army support with Covid-19 crisis (https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/news/nsw-police-commissioner-confirms-premier-declined-army-support-with-covid19-crisis/news-story/72ecea3c4281190e18e6bbb86719a75d), News.com.au.

She seems to be intent on reproducing all aspects of the big 2nd lockdown in Victoria. I’m sure conservatives will roast her alive for turning down Army assistance.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 23, 2021, 10:23:50 pm
They will ... not just conservatives either.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on July 23, 2021, 10:46:16 pm
What a distorted, egotistical view Gladys presents of NSW's position amongst the states by calling it "a national emergency".
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 24, 2021, 12:56:35 am
No idea but the data doesn't lie.  If we continue eliminating covid before we let it rip then the numbers will initially show that the vaccine is as dangerous as the disease and that will absolutely without a shadow of a doubt change once we let it rip (which is a fair accompli).
 I don't think that the data will ever show that, it can't ever be as deadly as the virus, it is already an impossibility!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 24, 2021, 01:04:54 am
I don't think that the data will ever show that, it can't ever be as deadly as the virus, it is already an impossibility!

Based on our current level of cases, death and transmission if we wait until everyone is vaccinated to let it rip, that's actually a plausible.  We've had more deaths in our state from the vaccination in 2021 than we have from covid as an example.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 24, 2021, 01:33:12 am
Based on our current level of cases, death and transmission if we wait until everyone is vaccinated to let it rip, that's actually a plausible.  We've had more deaths in our state from the vaccination in 2021 than we have from covid as an example.
 You need to review your logic, then do the math.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 24, 2021, 07:52:49 am
What a distorted, egotistical view Gladys presents of NSW's position amongst the states by calling it "a national emergency".
To be fair, if they dont get it under control (and so far they have demonstrated they aren't), we could be all Farked if it ravages other states. Dictator Dan said as much yesterday in his presser yesterday.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 24, 2021, 08:21:26 am
You need to review your logic, then do the math.

No i dont.  It makes perfect sense.  A 48 and 44 year old from both vic and tas died earlier this week after being jabbed.

I know you think the jab is perfect, its not.

Ergo, as we approach full vaccination provided we see a similar approach to eliminating covid in our community (sfa cases hospitalised this year in victoria with 0 covid deaths in 2021) then we are going to see in Melbourne alone 12 million jabs for .009% bad outcomes vs 0 bad outcomes.

Rather than argue with me (again to prove no point) you need to understand that i state this as a pre emptive rebuttal to anyone arguing against the use of said vaccines that the worst of this is still to come and the only protection we have against letting it rip is vaccination. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 24, 2021, 08:58:02 am
To be fair, if they dont get it under control (and so far they have demonstrated they aren't), we could be all Farked if it ravages other states. Dictator Dan said as much yesterday in his presser yesterday.

They're in a world of trouble, that's for sure.  Not the first time they've stuffed up.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 24, 2021, 09:07:41 am
They're in a world of trouble, that's for sure.  Not the first time they've stuffed up.
Cap the strange bit is, they handled the Ruby Princess with perfection. 744 people walked off that ship riddled with Covid and they managed to contain it by being diligent and strict. This outbreak has been a diabolical shambles, more of exercise in trying to show Victoria how to handle outbreaks. Clearly they haven't shown us crap.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on July 24, 2021, 09:50:04 am
No i dont.  It makes perfect sense.  A 48 and 44 year old from both vic and tas died earlier this week after being jabbed.

I know you think the jab is perfect, its not.

Ergo, as we approach full vaccination provided we see a similar approach to eliminating covid in our community (sfa cases hospitalised this year in victoria with 0 covid deaths in 2021) then we are going to see in Melbourne alone 12 million jabs for .009% bad outcomes vs 0 bad outcomes.

Rather than argue with me (again to prove no point) you need to understand that i state this as a pre emptive rebuttal to anyone arguing against the use of said vaccines that the worst of this is still to come and the only protection we have against letting it rip is vaccination. 

Priongenic?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 24, 2021, 10:01:50 am
What a distorted, egotistical view Gladys presents of NSW's position amongst the states by calling it "a national emergency".
Given Scotty from Marketing is the PM of NSW, it all makes sense! :D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 24, 2021, 10:02:46 am
Gonna be the long haul route outta here @Gointocarlton ... think it will be uglier than what some presume :(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 24, 2021, 10:37:44 am
No i dont.  It makes perfect sense.  A 48 and 44 year old from both vic and tas died earlier this week after being jabbed. Do you know the health history of those two folks who sadly passed away?

I know you think the jab is perfect, its not. I've not -- could be wrong -- ever interpreted anything the Spotted One has written that stated the vaccines are perfect.

Ergo, as we approach full vaccination provided we see a similar approach to eliminating covid in our community (sfa cases hospitalised this year in victoria with 0 covid deaths in 2021) then we are going to see in Melbourne alone 12 million jabs for .009% bad outcomes vs 0 bad outcomes. This confuses me, 3 Leos. Again, I could be wrong but, 1) We've seen 0 deaths in VIC this year primarily because there have been strong strategies to protect the community (locksdowns, masks, strong hand washing ethic etc). But when we reach, say, 65% vaccine levels in the community and many measures are relaxed, are you saying that 0 deaths / life threatening infections will not occur? 2) Does your reckoning take into consideration that there will likely, eventually, be around 20% of our community who will not get vaccines for whatever reason? Do you not believe that these unprotected people would likely be vulnerable to infection with potentially negative health outcomes? 3) Does your reckoning take into consideration that this virus, unlike the usual virus' that lessen over time, will worsen and strengthen in transmissibility and effect (a la the Delta strain)?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 24, 2021, 10:42:15 am
No i dont.  It makes perfect sense.  A 48 and 44 year old from both vic and tas died earlier this week after being jabbed.

I know you think the jab is perfect, its not.
Nobody I know taking a rational vaccination position has claimed that, certainly no scientists and no health professionals. Vaccines haven't got 100% efficacy, and they won't be without patients who have reactions, the assertion vaccines aren't perfect is only used by naysayers and anti-vaxxers to create certain uncertainty.

btw., If you answered my earlier question about the reactions to 2nd doses, really thought about it and both possible answers, you'd realise how silly your assertion is that the vaccines will at some point become deadlier than the endemic virus. It just takes a little bit of mindful thought before making a statement to realise how wrong the assertion you've repeated here is.

I'll prompt you to think about this by asking some basic questions if you like, but don't get defensive if it makes your earlier posts look somewhat silly?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 24, 2021, 11:01:08 am
HuffPost reports the Offensive Line coach of the Minnesota Vikings is on the cusp of being booted from the NFL because he refuses to take the vaccine. That’s the way to do it. He still gets to choose to remain unvaccinated if he wishes, but he just has to stop putting others at risk. In the NFL, he’d be putting the Vikings at risk as the NFL has introduced a new rule that any team that has to pull out of a game because of positive Covid tests will forfeit that game if it can’t be rescheduled.

Interesting to hear the Republican Governor of Alabama going ballistic over her fellow Alabamians’ reluctance to vaccinate. When asked what she was going to do about it, she said she’d done everything she could and it was time to blame the unvaccinated. So what’s the pathetic percentage of fully vaccinated people there? 34%.

Sitting at 12%, we could only dream of such a figure. The fact that this is due to a lack of supply rather than a willingness to take the vaccine just makes it worse.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 24, 2021, 11:12:58 am
There is, from what I've read, plenty of AZ doses sitting around unused, unloved and unwanted. At least the government has made a commitment to donating these to other countries in our region, so a massive big ups for that.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jun/27/australias-surplus-astrazeneca-covid-vaccines-will-be-donated-to-neighbouring-countries
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 24, 2021, 11:22:10 am
Keep one back for me.

163 cases in NSW. They’re on the way to setting a new record. It seems the current record, set in the initial outbreak last year, is around 240 for a daily figure and around 200 on a 7 day average.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 24, 2021, 11:26:42 am
There is, from what I've read, plenty of AZ doses sitting around unused, unloved and unwanted. At least the government has made a commitment to donating these to other countries in our region, so a massive big ups for that.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jun/27/australias-surplus-astrazeneca-covid-vaccines-will-be-donated-to-neighbouring-countries
Yep, I believe we are exporting a million a week to Indonesia, PNG, Fiji and other Pacific Island nations, it must be burning for the right wing anti-vaxxer racists to hear the vaccines they refuse are saving some SE Asian lives! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 24, 2021, 11:28:04 am
Keep one back for me.

163 cases in NSW. They’re on the way to setting a new record. It seems the current record, set in the initial outbreak last year, is around 240 for a daily figure and around 200 on a 7 day average.
I'm hoping like hell we break the global trend and this doesn't convert into deaths over the next 2 to 3 weeks, the health authorities will deserve a medal if they can prevent that from happening!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 24, 2021, 11:29:12 am
There is, from what I've read, plenty of AZ doses sitting around unused, unloved and unwanted. At least the government has made a commitment to donating these to other countries in our region, so a massive big ups for that.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jun/27/australias-surplus-astrazeneca-covid-vaccines-will-be-donated-to-neighbouring-countries
Probably coming up to the expiry date as well.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 24, 2021, 11:36:59 am
If the AZ doses are not considered good enough for us how come we think they’re good enough for others?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 24, 2021, 11:43:04 am
Probably coming up to the expiry date as well.....
AZ has quite a long shelf life compared to Pfizer, the new version of Pfizer only just starting to appear on shelves has a longer shelf life than the original.

I've heard they were throwing Pfizer away by the thousands early due to the short shelf life and onerous storage requirements, I've also been told by someone that claims to have CSR contacts that stopping the Pfizer waste is the real reason why they adjusted the eligible age groups.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 24, 2021, 12:03:15 pm
For an old Greenie like me, one thing that has always bugged me about the Pfizer is the storage requirements (all those doses at -70 degrees would carry a significant environmental cost). The other thing is that any long term issues with Pfizer remain unknown, because it's a new technology. The AZ, whatever issues exist with DVT etc., is a technology that has been road tested for decades. And it is much lower maintenance.

Having had the Pfzier, I  might wake up one day with gills, or worse, a die hard Essendon supporter lol.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 24, 2021, 12:07:38 pm
If the AZ doses are not considered good enough for us how come we think they’re good enough for others?
I’m sure Indonesia could distribute all the AZ doses we give them among 60+ year olds if they wish. Hell, with their population they could give them to 90+ year olds without making much of a dent. And if they take a more pragmatic approach to giving it to younger age groups, would they be wrong?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 24, 2021, 12:23:17 pm

baggers don't bite, LP is just being contrary because he can't agree to disagree on a hypothetical scenario where we have vaccinated significantly (i can't believe how often i have to repeat this) that at the current rate (bold ticked underlined etc) of adverse reaction to covid and the vaccine we will likely (qualifying statement) see more adverse reactions to the vaccine in the short term (qualifying statement) than we will from covid until (qualifying statement) we let it rip and then and only then will that relationship flip.

So my point is that the crap show surrounding covid is yet to really begin and the video spf showed us that normality is gone and you can get used to lockdowns in the medium term.

Understand?



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 24, 2021, 12:24:24 pm
Nobody I know taking a rational vaccination position has claimed that, certainly no scientists and no health professionals. Vaccines haven't got 100% efficacy, and they won't be without patients who have reactions, the assertion vaccines aren't perfect is only used by naysayers and anti-vaxxers to create certain uncertainty.

btw., If you answered my earlier question about the reactions to 2nd doses, really thought about it and both possible answers, you'd realise how silly your assertion is that the vaccines will at some point become deadlier than the endemic virus. It just takes a little bit of mindful thought before making a statement to realise how wrong the assertion you've repeated here is.

I'll prompt you to think about this by asking some basic questions if you like, but don't get defensive if it makes your earlier posts look somewhat silly?

Can you stop arguing a point that fundamentally agrees with your position regarding vaccines?

Talk about sounding stupid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 24, 2021, 12:46:56 pm
Having had the Pfzier, I  might wake up one day with gills, or worse, a die hard Essendon supporter lol.
Gimme blod clots any day.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 24, 2021, 12:52:53 pm
Gimme blod clots any day.

 ;D

Hey GTC, do you have any Sheedy posters I can borrow ? I think it's already starting lol.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 24, 2021, 01:07:58 pm
baggers don't bite, LP is just being contrary because he can't agree to disagree on a hypothetical scenario where we have vaccinated significantly (i can't believe how often i have to repeat this) that at the current rate (bold ticked underlined etc) of adverse reaction to covid and the vaccine we will likely (qualifying statement) see more adverse reactions to the vaccine in the short term (qualifying statement) than we will from covid until (qualifying statement) we let it rip and then and only then will that relationship flip.

So my point is that the crap show surrounding covid is yet to really begin and the video spf showed us that normality is gone and you can get used to lockdowns in the medium term.

Understand?
He may not, can't or won't be able to understand something that is so fundamentally flawed, the assertion about the vaccine severe reactions exceeding COVID acute cases hasn't been correct in the past, isn't correct in the present and won't be correct in the future. It's just fear mongering.

Unlike the accusations made we do know and realise that vaccines aren't perfect, at best they only protect about 90% of the population, with a significant percentage of the population either being unable to take the vaccine or not developing a resistance as a result of having it. That leaves roughly 2,500,000 people vulnerable in Australia alone, and we already have 916 deaths from just over 32,000 COVID cases. Extrapolate the current death rate for the 2,500,000 potential cases. 2,500,000 / 32,000 X 916 = 71,562 deaths

Now, the reality is adverse reactions to vaccines doses is not linear, most who will get a bad reaction get in on the first dose, so 2nd doses can be virtually ignored. That means only half the doses used to vaccinate the population is the critical number.

We have 6 deaths linked to 6,000,000 vaccinations, even if in the grim worst case all the current ICU cases potentially linked to AZ or Pfizer do not make it, that number peaks at 24 per 6,000,000 doses.  We've about 18,000,000 first doses remaining to issue given that not everyone is eligible. So at the current adverse reaction rate, 18,000,000 potential 1st vaccinations, 18,000,000 / 6,000,000 x 24 = 72 deaths

Basic math exposes the folly of the assertion that vaccines at any stage become as deadly as COVID. The numbers might change marginally in some direction for better or worse, but they won't drift from the current trend in a ratio of 1000:1. Globally, even in the best cases scenario, they been able to reduce the death rate in the ratio 100:1, that still leaves 720 potential COVID deaths to 72 potential vaccine deaths, if we leave vaccine deaths at the worst case and COVID deaths at the best case. However, it looks like that 100:1 reduction ratio cannot be sustained and 10:1 is more likely to be the real long term number, and even that depends heavily on resource availability. So 7,200 COVID deaths for 72 vaccine deaths looks realistic possibility.

But of course many have stated this all along, you get vaccinated to protect those around you not just to protect yourself!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 24, 2021, 01:11:27 pm
;D

Hey GTC, do you have any Sheedy posters I can borrow ? I think it's already starting lol.
Yeah I do Pauly, they are a homemade though but I used only the best quality Sorbent paper I could find.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 24, 2021, 01:35:48 pm
With all these new cases in NSW, it seems much of the QF fleet will be mothballed for some time to come.         
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 24, 2021, 02:19:55 pm
He may not, can't or won't be able to understand something that is so fundamentally flawed, the assertion about the vaccine severe reactions exceeding COVID acute cases hasn't been correct in the past, isn't correct in the present and won't be correct in the future. It's just fear mongering.

Unlike the accusations made we do know and realise that vaccines aren't perfect, at best they only protect about 90% of the population, with a significant percentage of the population either being unable to take the vaccine or not developing a resistance as a result of having it. That leaves roughly 2,500,000 people vulnerable in Australia alone, and we already have 916 deaths from just over 32,000 COVID cases. Extrapolate the current death rate for the 2,500,000 potential cases. 2,500,000 / 32,000 X 916 = 71,562 deaths

Now, the reality is adverse reactions to vaccines doses is not linear, most who will get a bad reaction get in on the first dose, so 2nd doses can be virtually ignored. That means only half the doses used to vaccinate the population is the critical number.

We have 6 deaths linked to 6,000,000 vaccinations, even if in the grim worst case all the current ICU cases potentially linked to AZ or Pfizer do not make it, that number peaks at 24 per 6,000,000 doses.  We've about 18,000,000 first doses remaining to issue given that not everyone is eligible. So at the current adverse reaction rate, 18,000,000 potential 1st vaccinations, 18,000,000 / 6,000,000 x 24 = 72 deaths

Basic math exposes the folly of the assertion that vaccines at any stage become as deadly as COVID. The numbers might change marginally in some direction for better or worse, but they won't drift from the current trend in a ratio of 1000:1. Globally, even in the best cases scenario, they been able to reduce the death rate in the ratio 100:1, that still leaves 720 potential COVID deaths to 72 potential vaccine deaths, if we leave vaccine deaths at the worst case and COVID deaths at the best case. However, it looks like that 100:1 reduction ratio cannot be sustained and 10:1 is more likely to be the real long term number, and even that depends heavily on resource availability. So 7,200 COVID deaths for 72 vaccine deaths looks realistic possibility.

But of course many have stated this all along, you get vaccinated to protect those around you not just to protect yourself!

Lp.  You missed the part where we continue eliminating covid which means no further deaths vs the adverse reactions still to come in the remaining 70% of the population.

Your maths is fine you forget the fact that im hypothesising that our current vaccination increases at a rate significantly greater than infection.

Check your logic.

Oh forget it, this is way over your head
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 24, 2021, 04:39:17 pm
I’m sure Indonesia could distribute all the AZ doses we give them among 60+ year olds if they wish. Hell, with their population they could give them to 90+ year olds without making much of a dent. And if they take a more pragmatic approach to giving it to younger age groups, would they be wrong?

If we think it’s OK for them to give it to their youngies why don’t we give it to ours? Would that be seen as pragmatic?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 24, 2021, 04:43:32 pm
HuffPost reports the Offensive Line coach of the Minnesota Vikings is on the cusp of being booted from the NFL because he refuses to take the vaccine. That’s the way to do it. He still gets to choose to remain unvaccinated if he wishes, but he just has to stop putting others at risk. In the NFL, he’d be putting the Vikings at risk as the NFL has introduced a new rule that any team that has to pull out of a game because of positive Covid tests will forfeit that game if it can’t be rescheduled.

Interesting to hear the Republican Governor of Alabama going ballistic over her fellow Alabamians’ reluctance to vaccinate. When asked what she was going to do about it, she said she’d done everything she could and it was time to blame the unvaccinated. So what’s the pathetic percentage of fully vaccinated people there? 34%.

Sitting at 12%, we could only dream of such a figure. The fact that this is due to a lack of supply rather than a willingness to take the vaccine just makes it worse.

Im not a fan of this approach but the logic seems a bit broken to me.

If im vaccinated and the person next to me isn't, what difference does it make to me?

Note: vaccinated people are still catching covid and still transmitting covid, and they are also going to hospital with covid.

Those who choose to remain unvaccinated run a personal risk and thats their choice, but largely its quite irrelevant to the price of fish isn't it?

This is an honest question seeking to understand the rationale rather than anything else.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 24, 2021, 05:11:14 pm
Vaccinations may reduce the transmission of the Delta Variant in 2 ways: vaccinated people:

I think there’s some evidence to support both propositions, but I’m not informed enough to go further than that.

If either or both of the above propositions are correct, then the more people vaccinate, the less transmission there will be in the community. The odds of vaccinated and unvaccinated people being infected will then be reduced.

Any reduction in transmission rates will help to prevent Covid mutating into more dangerous variants, or at least will help to delay those mutations. More dangerous variants will be a threat to both vaccinated and unvaccinated people.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 24, 2021, 05:23:14 pm
If we think it’s OK for them to give it to their youngies why don’t we give it to ours? Would that be seen as pragmatic?
In a country where Covid is circulating a lot, it’s a lot easier to disregard the fear of individuals that they might die of side effects. The logic becomes that there is a much greater chance of a person of any age dying of Covid as opposed to side effects.

Individuals are also more likely to make a rational choice to vaccinate if they have a 1% chance of dying from Covid and a 0.00001% chance of dying from side effects (I’m putting those percentages up only for the sake of argument: the actual percentages might be different).

In Australia, the prospect of the Eastern States eliminating Covid in the near future makes it harder to weigh risks and benefits.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 24, 2021, 06:08:12 pm
ITAGI now recommending people esp in SW Sydney to consider AZ. Risk profile apparently changing esp in light of the new strain.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 24, 2021, 07:09:57 pm
Lp.  You missed the part where we continue eliminating covid which means no further deaths vs the adverse reactions still to come in the remaining 70% of the population.
Except that is the second equation, based on the current rate of adverse effects it's 72 deaths for about 24,000,000 1st vaccinations if we assume the worst case that everyone is ICU perishes as grim as that may be.

If we use the current real world adverse reaction numbers, it's a lower total of 18 deaths for 24,000,000 vaccinations, or 1/50 the number of COVID-19 deaths already accumulated, ignoring future COVID-19 deaths which will increase but hopefully not too much. However, there is no chance of constraining COVID-19 deaths to a number lower than adverse vaccine reaction deaths.

Of course, even a fully vaccinated 90% population, you can't eliminate COVID-19 which leaves 10% of the population vulnerable.
Oh forget it, this is way over your head
IC you've become offended, that was a tad predictable.

I thought you would support Flyboy in avoiding ad hominem attacks, yet I'm not surprised.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 24, 2021, 07:16:40 pm
ITAGI now recommending people esp in SW Sydney to consider AZ. Risk profile apparently changing esp in light of the new strain.
It takes weeks and weeks to get the efficacy benefit of vaccination, Gladys has left it too late, the only solution left open to NSW now is a crazy hard lockdown to massively slow the rate of spread, she needs to put a curfew in place and create a temporary police state.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 24, 2021, 07:31:00 pm
Vaccinations may reduce the transmission of the Delta Variant in 2 ways: vaccinated people:
  • may be less likely to become infected, and if you’re not infected you won’t give it to anyone else.
  • may be less infectious if they do become infected and may therefore be less likely to infect others than unvaccinated people.

I think there’s some evidence to support both propositions, but I’m not informed enough to go further than that.

If either or both of the above propositions are correct, then the more people vaccinate, the less transmission there will be in the community. The odds of vaccinated and unvaccinated people being infected will then be reduced.

Any reduction in transmission rates will help to prevent Covid mutating into more dangerous variants, or at least will help to delay those mutations. More dangerous variants will be a threat to both vaccinated and unvaccinated people.

For those who have listened to Stuff You Should Know podcast, one of the 2 blokes there has got covid recently and talked about it.
He said him and about 14 other people all went out to dinner together at some resteraunt. All of them were completely vaccinated.
40% of them have since come down with COVID despite this.
Where he is they won't don't test to tell him which strain it is, but he's pretty confident it is the delta strain. His Doc is saying it appears to be only 60% effective against the delta strain.
He said he felt crap for a couple of days, and its pretty much just like the common cold. He is able to continue the podcast and he just sounds a little bit congested, but otherwise fine.


Going back to the Vikings coach refusal to get vaccinated,  i hadn't heard that yet. Do you know his name?

I'm not sure if the NFL is within their right to kick him out. But i understand why they would want too.
But riddle me this....if he has a condition where its not recommended for him to get vaccinated....is he not within his rights to take legal action? Or if he is forced to, and does, and gets a side effect from it, could he not do the same?

Dangerous ground being entered into.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 24, 2021, 07:38:05 pm
For those who have listened to Stuff You Should Know podcast, one of the 2 blokes there has got covid recently and talked about it.
He said him and about 14 other people all went out to dinner together at some resteraunt. All of them were completely vaccinated.
40% of them have since come down with COVID despite this.
Where he is they won't don't test to tell him which strain it is, but he's pretty confident it is the delta strain. His Doc is saying it appears to be only 60% effective against the delta strain.
He said he felt crap for a couple of days, and its pretty much just like the common cold. He is able to continue the podcast and he just sounds a little bit congested, but otherwise fine.
At the Sydney family gathering where none were vaccinated, 24 out of 24 attendees were infected with Delta, apparently some are now in hospital which is a bit concerning because it suggests the hospitalisation rate is higher than expected for Delta. For the earlier strains you would expect just 1 out of 24 being hospitalised regardless of the age spread. We don't get to find out the real figures due to privacy laws.

btw., I think it's a tell about the spread of misinformation to assert 60% efficacy isn't a good result, historically this is about as good as vaccines get, the 78% and 97% efficacies reported earlier were questionable.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 24, 2021, 07:45:07 pm
Rick Dennison: https://www.espn.com.au/nfl/story/_/id/31869652/rick-dennison-minnesota-vikings-assistant-refusing-covid-19-vaccine-sources-say (https://www.espn.com.au/nfl/story/_/id/31869652/rick-dennison-minnesota-vikings-assistant-refusing-covid-19-vaccine-sources-say)

But the story doesn’t appear on HuffPost any more. Maybe debunked?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 24, 2021, 07:51:21 pm
If a pilot develops epilepsy or diabetes, he’s out of a job. If a coach can’t or won’t comply with a measure intended to protect his team and the NFL, isn’t he out of a job?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 24, 2021, 08:53:08 pm
If a pilot develops epilepsy or diabetes, he’s out of a job. If a coach can’t or won’t comply with a measure intended to protect his team and the NFL, isn’t he out of a job?

Not entirely true ... I know some diabetic pilots
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 24, 2021, 09:13:47 pm
Not entirely true ... I know some diabetic pilots
True. There was a ban but now if a diabetic jumps a number of hurdles s/he can fly commercially. Still, it wasn’t until 2020 that a pilot with type 1 diabetes was certified to fly commercially in Australia.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 24, 2021, 11:32:08 pm
Except that is the second equation, based on the current rate of adverse effects it's 72 deaths for about 24,000,000 1st vaccinations if we assume the worst case that everyone is ICU perishes as grim as that may be.

If we use the current real world adverse reaction numbers, it's a lower total of 18 deaths for 24,000,000 vaccinations, or 1/50 the number of COVID-19 deaths already accumulated, ignoring future COVID-19 deaths which will increase but hopefully not too much. However, there is no chance of constraining COVID-19 deaths to a number lower than adverse vaccine reaction deaths.

Of course, even a fully vaccinated 90% population, you can't eliminate COVID-19 which leaves 10% of the population vulnerable.IC you've become offended, that was a tad predictable.

I thought you would support Flyboy in avoiding ad hominem attacks, yet I'm not surprised.

Nah you're arguing for the sake of arguing a hypothetical that is at worst an observation and plausible and frankly quite meaningless.

It was one observation in a post that you have fixated upon, twisted and have decided to try and assert dominance about because you ignored the qualifying statements thinking you know better than everyone you know it all a d have decided to assert a position against a point rather than just accepting its a plausible outcome.  This forum isn't about you.  Im not flyboy and I couldn't care less what you have to say.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 24, 2021, 11:40:49 pm
If a pilot develops epilepsy or diabetes, he’s out of a job. If a coach can’t or won’t comply with a measure intended to protect his team and the NFL, isn’t he out of a job?
If he is potentially physically unable to comply....should he be out of the job? Its not as if it was in their job description when they took the job.
If it is against someones religion to do something, are they sacked too?


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 24, 2021, 11:43:46 pm
I worry more about the shocking precedent this sets.

Forcing a vaccine will result in a greater number of anti vaxxers as people already disbelieve.

Give them time, let them come to terms that covid is here to stay and let natural selection take its course.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 24, 2021, 11:44:43 pm
Rick Dennison: https://www.espn.com.au/nfl/story/_/id/31869652/rick-dennison-minnesota-vikings-assistant-refusing-covid-19-vaccine-sources-say (https://www.espn.com.au/nfl/story/_/id/31869652/rick-dennison-minnesota-vikings-assistant-refusing-covid-19-vaccine-sources-say)

But the story doesn’t appear on HuffPost any more. Maybe debunked?


I didn't see this post when i replied before, but it confirms what i suggested.
Quote
In a memo released by the league this summer, the NFL said any unvaccinated Tier 1 staff member must provide a valid religious or medical reason for not receiving the vaccine. Losing Tier 1 status prohibits coaches from being on the field and in meeting rooms and having direct interactions with players.

Interesting side note that this does not apply to players though.

I guess money talks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 25, 2021, 12:41:01 am
I worry more about the shocking precedent this sets.

Forcing a vaccine will result in a greater number of anti vaxxers as people already disbelieve.

Give them time, let them come to terms that covid is here to stay and let natural selection take its course.
Agree, More people will embrace the vaccines when there is more choice for all age groups, if you have 3-4 to choose from instead of being railroaded into one because of your age then citizens will feel in control of their own destiny.
Having a medically unqualified PM going against his vaccine advisory groups medical advice and pushing one vaccine to suit his political and economic agenda isnt going to fly in a country with low infection levels. Either is telling a citizen who is 60 and one day old you cant have the same vaccine as a citizen who is 59 and 364 days old...

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on July 25, 2021, 07:21:32 am
We don't have to worry about antivaxers, would only be about 5 percent of the population. I only know of one couple who wouldn't vaccinate their kids because they believe it causes autism. The irony is their youngest's school was pressuring them to see a pediatrician as they believed he was on the spectrum.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 25, 2021, 08:23:02 am
Agree, More people will embrace the vaccines when there is more choice for all age groups, if you have 3-4 to choose from instead of being railroaded into one because of your age then citizens will feel in control of their own destiny.
Having a medically unqualified PM going against his vaccine advisory groups medical advice and pushing one vaccine to suit his political and economic agenda isnt going to fly in a country with low infection levels. Either is telling a citizen who is 60 and one day old you cant have the same vaccine as a citizen who is 59 and 364 days old...


I don't know thats true about the PM going against advisory groups. The advice from ATAGI has always been to consult your GP with all vaccines, IIRC that's what the both the PM and Andrews said when it was suggested that younger people could get AZ if they wanted to. Re the 60 +/- 1 day, I remember both an AMA guy and an ATAGI or TGA rep saying its a line in the sand they had to draw, that is they had to pick a number (with some science) but speak to your GP.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 25, 2021, 08:52:23 am
I know these demos are giving me the irrits.  It's a very bad look for law and order.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 25, 2021, 09:00:14 am
Give them time, let them come to terms that covid is here to stay and let natural selection take its course.
Bad luck for those who legitimately can't get vaccination, they risk greater harm for the preservation of rights for the deniers!

No accountability for making a choice that harms others, didn't @Mav already take you through this?

The freedom of choice can be preserved, but with consequences when that choice harms others.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 25, 2021, 09:35:01 am
I don't know thats true about the PM going against advisory groups. The advice from ATAGI has always been to consult your GP with all vaccines, IIRC that's what the both the PM and Andrews said when it was suggested that younger people could get AZ if they wanted to. Re the 60 +/- 1 day, I remember both an AMA guy and an ATAGI or TGA rep saying its a line in the sand they had to draw, that is they had to pick a number (with some science) but speak to your GP.
That was pushing the responsibility onto GPs, you go to a GP and they only give you the pros and cons, they don't want to make hard recommendations.
The advice was no AZ for under 60s from ATAGI, it was Scomo who pushed for younger people to have it and not ATAGI even with GP advice.. He has been lobbying them to change their advice officially.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 25, 2021, 09:40:40 am
That was pushing the responsibility onto GPs, you go to a GP and they only give you the pros and cons, they don't want to make hard recommendations.
The advice was no AZ for under 60s from ATAGI, it was Scomo who pushed for younger people to have it and not ATAGI even with GP advice.. He has been lobbying them to change their advice officially.

Mine did.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 25, 2021, 09:46:15 am
Bad luck for those who legitimately can't get vaccination, they risk greater harm for the preservation of rights for the deniers!

No accountability for making a choice that harms others, didn't @Mav already take you through this?

The freedom of choice can be preserved, but with consequences when that choice harms others.

Who can't get vaccinated? 

You guys go from take-off to 6th gear with this stuff.


Mavs post is still hypothetical and he even stated he's not qualified to say.

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

Spf's video shows growing transmission with vaccination not decreasing, because people are still transmitting the virus, and you aren't immune from it, the vaccine decreases likelihood of serious hospitalisation because the immune response is accelerated.

At this point, its too early to make that claim and force vaccination.   The only benefit is in hospital care and cost of that.

Let's see how UK goes through winter (currently summer when covid virtually vanished last year) and then we can determine using the science and data as to whether or not mandatory vaccination is any different.

I understand the hypothetical that it could lead to less transmission but if people aren't sick they won't get tested and they might not even worry and continue infecting others anyway. 

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 25, 2021, 09:50:44 am
Mine did.
I'm talking more younger folk with no existing conditions and the offer of AZ, my son was supplied with info and said the choice was his.. Older folk with pre existing conditions on certain meds would come with more medical evidence to support a recommendation. ie my daughters MIL to be has clots behind one eye and other issues and was told no AZ or Pfizer... Maybe Novavax if and when approved but nothing for now..



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 25, 2021, 10:59:11 am
Mine did.
Mine too.

My GP basically talked through the risks of both vaccine and Sars-CoV-2, then I asked him what he would do and he recommended I get whatever vaccine you can get as quickly as possible. But I realise my GP he has been volunteering on the COVID-19 front line at several of the big Melbourne Metro hospitals since the 1st wave.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 25, 2021, 11:05:07 am
. ie my daughters MIL to be has clots behind one eye and other issues and was told no AZ or Pfizer... Maybe Novavax if and when approved but nothing for now..
Your daughters MIL is a prime example of why the rest of us should get vaccinated, because there are many people who cannot be vaccinated for whatever reason, including those who develop no immunity from vaccines, those vulnerable groups all rely on herd immunity levels being achieved, the only way to protect them is to reduce the risk of transmission.

People act with a veneer of care, even the naysayers and anti-vaxxers often claim they do what they do because they fear for others, but actions expose reality. I think to claim empathy and care, it is reasonable to think a demonstration of doing the right thing by others as well as self is a basic measure.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 25, 2021, 12:56:12 pm
I feel sorry for Stephen Harmon's family, the Hillsong apparatchik (Scomo's Church) who poked fun at vaccinations on social media, dead from COVID-19 at only 34 years of age.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UijhbHvxWrA
It was just a flesh wound.

I wonder if profit is sometimes a primary motivation for faith, how much wealth he would have potentially reaped if he had only survived the bet he placed.

How many people listened to him, how many of those people have or will share his fate!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 25, 2021, 03:01:44 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/national/if-sky-can-put-jones-dangerous-stuff-to-air-what-can-t-you-put-on-australian-tv-20210723-p58cgx.html

Only the first section is relevant.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 25, 2021, 04:19:22 pm
Scientists warn of different Covid variants combining and sharing traits as infections rise (https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/covid-variants-delta-cases-latest-b1888851.html), the Independent.

Apparently, the fear is there’ll be “recombination events” where 2 variants share dangerous traits.

Quote
In the early days of the pandemic, due to the limited genetic diversity of Sars-CoV-2 at the time, recombination was seen as largely inconsequential, with similar-looking variants exchanging much of the same genetic coding between each other.
“It has happened, but it hasn’t happened in such a way that it’s caused, as far as I’m aware, a major advantage to the virus,” said Prof Thomson.
But as the virus continues to spread – particularly in countries where it is given free rein to do so – it will build up genetic diversity that could make recombination more pronounced, and produce an offspring variant that carries concerning characteristics.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 25, 2021, 04:25:14 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/national/if-sky-can-put-jones-dangerous-stuff-to-air-what-can-t-you-put-on-australian-tv-20210723-p58cgx.html

Only the first section is relevant.
Dont disagree on Peter Fitzsimons views on Jones and Kelly, they are unqualified to be giving those opinions and Sky shouldnt be airing them...the irrelevant section did make me laugh, where Fitzsimons bags out Jeff Bezos and other large scale entrepreneurs for indulging in some spacecraft recreation and references the rich and the poor argument.
Of course he didnt or forgot to mention he drives a very expensive Tesla and that the proceeds of that purchase went to another  Space Voyager entrepreneur in Elon Musk and that both Peter and his overpaid TV personality wife who likes her coin are probably one of the few who can afford such a new age Electric car. I guess if you are going to do your bit for the planet then Peter and Lisa want to do it in style but we wont tell those poor folk that Jeff and Elon are meant to have overlooked.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 25, 2021, 05:11:44 pm
God, how I hate those two shoutheads. >:D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 25, 2021, 05:20:29 pm
I think I heard correctly, news reports that new modelling out of the US predicting back up to 800+ deaths a day from Delta by October. Daily cases are driving towards 43,000, not good.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 25, 2021, 05:32:17 pm
I think I heard correctly, news reports that new modelling out of the US predicting back up to 800+ deaths a day from Delta by October. Daily cases are driving towards 43,000, not good.
The US is a unique problem, due to the low vaccine uptake in some regions and the widely varying management of the epidemic along state lines, before Gladys was set upon us I thought we were in a much better place here in Oz, but I'm afraid that has been exposed as folly! However, despite the late action, our states are not as openly defiant as some US regions.

The world gets to sit by and observe a first hand Full HD web stream real-time experiment of some US regions letting it loose!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on July 25, 2021, 05:35:29 pm
Count me as well Cap... Just because you're an ex-sportsman with the means to voice an opinion doesn't mean you deserve to be heard.   He who can shout loudest doth a cogent argument maketh.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 25, 2021, 05:38:51 pm
He who can shout loudest doth a cogent argument maketh.
OMG, I've been so so wrong about Bolt, Jones, Trump and many many others! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 25, 2021, 05:51:32 pm
Dont disagree on Peter Fitzsimons views on Jones and Kelly, they are unqualified to be giving those opinions and Sky shouldnt be airing them...the irrelevant section did make me laugh, where Fitzsimons bags out Jeff Bezos and other large scale entrepreneurs for indulging in some spacecraft recreation and references the rich and the poor argument.
Of course he didnt or forgot to mention he drives a very expensive Tesla and that the proceeds of that purchase went to another  Space Voyager entrepreneur in Elon Musk and that both Peter and his overpaid TV personality wife who likes her coin are probably one of the few who can afford such a new age Electric car. I guess if you are going to do your bit for the planet then Peter and Lisa want to do it in style but we wont tell those poor folk that Jeff and Elon are meant to have overlooked.

This probably isn't the place to be advocating for first class, global mass transportation systems in lieu of private cars, nor is it the place to go one better and advocate the New Urbanism model for urban design.

FitzSimons and his ilk don't bother me too much. He is undoubtedly a Champagne Socialist, but more often than not he makes sense and he at least tries.

If we must have private modes of transport, electric cars are a worthwhile effort IMO, a nascent technology with plenty of room for improvement. And hopefully the prices come down soon.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 25, 2021, 07:00:05 pm
I think I heard correctly, news reports that new modelling out of the US predicting back up to 800+ deaths a day from Delta by October. Daily cases are driving towards 43,000, not good.
They also said worst case could be 240K cases and 4000 deaths a day.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 25, 2021, 08:59:14 pm
The USA is a very different beast thanks largely to their private healthcare networks and lack of public health care.

Its a combination that produces different results particularly if it generates additional profits.

I think the UK is a better case study because the NHS is closer to Medicare for us.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 26, 2021, 08:20:12 am
He who can shout loudest doth a cogent argument maketh.

Empty vessels make the most noise. The squeaky wheel gets the oil... nothing like some juicy sayings/cliches on a crisp Monday morning.

Ah, the information age... a gradual lesson in discerning the difference between shyte and shinola...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 26, 2021, 09:20:35 am
Just read how this Delta strain of Covid is hitting NSW, and spoke to a Doc buddy on the ground dealing with it. Seems Delta is far more democratic and claims lives and causes serious illnesses in most age groups. We 'olds' were beginning to feel expendable by some folks advocating... "Hey, just let it rip..."

I read the story of the 38 year old woman with no health issues who tragically passed away from Covid in NSW. I was so glad that a paper took it upon themselves to publish a story that emphasized that the numbers we see, which we can easily become anesthetized to, is actually, every single time, a person (regardless of age) with dreams, hopes, loving relationships and so on.

Seems also that in NSW the ICUs are filling up fast and already being tested - spoke to a Doc buddy in Mosman who is seeing first hand what's happening and how many just from his practice and other practices he knows, are headed to ICUs. Didn't someone here suggest that there are FA people in ICUs and that Covid was not as dangerous as the vaccines? (The 38 year old woman had not been vaccinated I learned from him).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 26, 2021, 09:45:59 am
Empty vessels make the most noise. 
Is that wise words from a submariner?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 26, 2021, 09:57:12 am
Seems also that in NSW the ICUs are filling up fast and already being tested - spoke to a Doc buddy in Mosman who is seeing first hand what's happening and how many just from his practice and other practices he knows, are headed to ICUs.
This is always going to be the problem, the virus spreads exponentially growing demand for COVID-19 resources exponentially. I hope for everyone's sake they don't hit the tipping point, because that will trigger the Federal Health system equivalent of an SOS!

The side effects of the vaccine grow linearly not exponentially, our hospitals can far more easily deal with the side-effects of the vaccine, provided they aren't overrun with COVID-19 patients. You don't have to isolate people with vaccine side-effects, they won't infect the staff, you don't have to put anywhere near as many of them into an ICU and in most cases they'll recover with no long term side-effects! Further as each week passes, the health authorities are getting better at detecting and treating the vaccine side effects, so we see the serious case number dropping.

I feel for friends and associates in the State and Federal Authorities, some of them are currently policing borders, it's not something they want to do and not something they signed up for, but they are forced into the chaos unleashed on Australia by the inaction of the NSW State Government. I've heard the armed forces have war gamed the setup and placement of field hospitals, they are seriously considering getting COVID-19 patients out of the public system so they keep the public system as sterile as possible, the armed forces have the kit, it's basically the same kit they use for chemical or biological warfare defence.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 26, 2021, 10:34:21 am
Is that wise words from a submariner?

 :))  :))  :))  Unfortunately, no. I wanted to serve whilst in the RAN on subs but was too tall! 6ft and the limit was 5ft 10ins. Did spend time working in moored and dry docked subs. So I did the next best thing once all my 'Sparker' (communications, radio - morse, encryption, code breaking etc.) training was complete... small ships. So the bulk of my sea duty was patrol boats - crew of 18. My first stint though, as a 17 yr old was aboard a big ship - Guided Missile Destroyer - HMAS Brisbane... or 'The Flying 41' as she was known. You had to do this before training in those days.

Once ensconced on patrollies, a circumnavigation of Australia, stopping at little ports all the way around, was the highlight. Going through a major storm in Bass Straight, complete with 90 degree rolls, was a terrifying yet exhilarating experience. PTSD experiences were a low light (first ship/Asia/war zone). When you dip your navigation lights in the oggun (Naval term for the sea) you need a regular supply of clean durps (undies).

Ah, we ex military types love yapping on about our experiences! When we enjoy watching a game together sometime, don't get me started on my adventures in 'pusses' (Navy word for the Navy. Army - Pongos. Air Force - Blue Orchids).

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.navy.gov.au%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2FBrisbane_15.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.navy.gov.au%2Fhmas-brisbane-ii&tbnid=D6nwo1I8mzw3CM&vet=12ahUKEwjV08qfzf_xAhUkKHIKHQ9bDFgQMygKegUIARC_AQ..i&docid=LCGakyZxWybK5M&w=1000&h=664&q=hmas%20brisbane%20ddg%2041&client=firefox-b-d&ved=2ahUKEwjV08qfzf_xAhUkKHIKHQ9bDFgQMygKegUIARC_AQ
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 26, 2021, 10:40:43 am
:))  :))  :))  Unfortunately, no. I wanted to serve whilst in the RAN on subs but was too tall! 6ft and the limit was 5ft 10ins. Did spend time working in moored and dry docked subs. So I did the next best thing once all my 'Sparker' (communications, radio - morse, encryption, code breaking etc.) training was complete... small ships. So the bulk of my sea duty was patrol boats - crew of 18. My first stint though, as a 17 yr old was aboard a big ship - Guided Missile Destroyer - HMAS Brisbane... or 'The Flying 41' as she was known. You had to do this before training in those days.

Once ensconced on patrollies, a circumnavigation of Australia, stopping at little ports all the way around, was the highlight. Going through a major storm in Bass Straight, complete with 90 degree rolls, was a terrifying yet exhilarating experience. PTSD experiences were a low light (first ship/Asia/war zone). When you dip your navigation lights in the oggun (Naval term for the sea) you need a regular supply of clean durps (undies).

Ah, we ex military types love yapping on about our experiences! When we enjoy watching a game together sometime, don't get me started on my adventures in 'pusses' (Navy word for the Navy. Army - Pongos. Air Force - Blue Orchids).
Love it, thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 26, 2021, 10:49:03 am
Once ensconced on patrollies, 
My very good friend was a sparky/radio operator on small patrol boats in Vietnam, spent much of his time after his tour in Holsworthy for various misdemeanours.

Listening to him it sounds like training in the navy was quite broad and first class back in those days, not sure it's the same now as it's all become very task specific with specialists for everything. He went on to be a big wig at Telstra before he retired, turns out knowing your way around navy comms was a great foundation for the public phone system. Lot's of his mates ended up as Telstra Lineys.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 26, 2021, 11:14:06 am
145 new cases in NSW, 51 of whom were infectious while in the community. Hard to see this turning around without the harshest of lockdowns.

On the other hand, the fact NSW has been able to avoid exponential growth is a testament to the efficacy of lockdowns and restrictions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 26, 2021, 11:36:41 am
My very good friend was a sparky/radio operator on small patrol boats in Vietnam, spent much of his time after his tour in Holsworthy for various misdemeanours.

Listening to him it sounds like training in the navy was quite broad and first class back in those days, not sure it's the same now as it's all become very task specific with specialists for everything. He went on to be a big wig at Telstra before he retired, turns out knowing your way around navy comms was a great foundation for the public phone system. Lot's of his mates ended up as Telstra Lineys.

Firstly, massive apologies for the off topic stuff.

Radio Operator (Sparker) was my branch. We were known as the 'elite' branch and the highest paid, non-commissioned rank. I know a good number of mates who went into telecommunications when they 'paid off' (discharged). My best mate and I both went into the media. Me, commercial radio, him commercial TV. I did think of AIr Traffic Controller until I found out about the stress!!!! I almost got a permanent job as the the communications dude in a lighthouse - would have loved that.

So your mate did a tour of Holsworthy, eh? Naughty boy. You had to really transgress to do a stint at that hell-hole! Unusual for a Sparker too... we were renowned for being the squeaky clean sailors, well we had to be as we had Top Secret clearance.

Back to Covid. Yep, well said, Wingman MAV. NSW does seem to have Covid in a 'holding pattern' at present. But you cannot see their lockdown being lifted for many weeks.

Conservative media opinion writers have a lot to answer for, for their early fear mongering, pseudo science and general ignorant cockheadedness around vaccines. Their backflip of late is somewhat infuriating. And let's not get started on SloMo's profound lack of vision and leadership.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 26, 2021, 12:37:34 pm
The Sydney shock jocks are the biggest problem. 2GB’s Ben Fordham was a big supporter of Gladys but turned his guns on her when she announced the lockdown. Alan Jones has continued to attack the lockdown although Ray Hadley attacked both of them over their stances.

Lest we forget how much sway Alan Jones has (or at least had), IIRC a Labor PM (I think it was Rudd) sent the guy who he was about to name to the Defence Ministry to see Alan Jones to seek his advice on that portfolio. Obviously, it was less to seek advice than avoid excoriation, but it’s amazing that Labor felt it needed to pander to a right-wing shock jock. How much harder would it be for a conservative Premier when he could incite her base to turn on her.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 26, 2021, 12:40:32 pm
So your mate did a tour of Holsworthy, eh? Naughty boy.
Yes, he garnished a reputation for having occasional friendly disputes with superiors, oddly(maybe not) quite a few ended up good friends afterwards. They would have him charged but at the same time look after him, I suppose it's who you know. I've heard his former officers laud his ability, he had a bit of talent for diagnosing and predicting faults in systems, and would be used as a bit of a trouble-shooter on problems, but he will tell you the day to day on board would get the better of him and he'd blow off steam. Mind you, he was their boss at the time in post service careers!

To me his officers are an example of old world professionalism you don't see now, kyboshing Mitch Robinson is an example of a modern failure, and especially around this COVID stuff and politics. Nobody backtracks, corrects course or admits a blunder to fix their stuff ups, they just deny deny deny and push on even if it is to wider derision and oblivion.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 26, 2021, 12:42:34 pm
How much harder would it be for a conservative Premier when he could incite her base to turn on her.
Jones and his following, ironically a large proportion of which are older females, have no tolerance for females in command. But I'm afraid Gladys is only reinforcing those perceptions with an inability to take off in any positive direction.

Modern politicians do not want to make a mistake, they see mistakes as death, better to do nothing than to make a mistake, ............ but indecision is also deadly in certain circumstances.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 26, 2021, 02:19:12 pm
Jones and his following, ironically a large proportion of which are older females, have no tolerance for females in command. But I'm afraid Gladys is only reinforcing those perceptions with an inability to take off in any positive direction.

Modern politicians do not want to make a mistake, they see mistakes as death, better to do nothing than to make a mistake, ............ but indecision is also deadly in certain circumstances.

Spotted One... so sorry to hear of you contracting Covid. But I am confident that the staff at the San Diego Zoo will take good care of you.  ;D  ;D  ;D

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 26, 2021, 02:24:13 pm
Spotted One... so sorry to hear of you contracting Covid. But I am confident that the staff at the San Diego Zoo will take good care of you.  ;D  ;D  ;D 
 Winter is coming! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 26, 2021, 02:35:31 pm
Well my, my my. Just returned from the GP to schedule my 2nd AZ dose and get my PTSD meds prescription, and witnessed a woman in her 30s in tears at reception. Why? She had had her first AZ dose the other day and was having some adverse reactions and was terrified that she was going to die. And guess what she was quoting as to the reason why... all the pseudo science peddlers, anti-vaxxer info and what friends had told her about the vaccines being more dangerous than Covid!! Fortunately one of the Docs saw her immediately - naturally I didn't mind her going in ahead of my appointment.

Got me to thinking about the mental health impact on folks from vaccine fear mongerers and the further damage to those already with a mental health issues from these -- well meaning -- ignorant, misinformed drongos.

When she came out from seeing the Doc, I went in (to the same Doc). Terrific fella. He told me a little of her concerns. She was experiencing the mild effects of the vaccine, mild headache, muscle aches and slight rise in temperature. Little he could say placated her fear. When I left and went to my car, she was still pacing the car park, in tears. Yours truly had a chat with her... she's much better now. I confess to feeling very tempted to dropping the next anti-vaxxer I meet.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 26, 2021, 02:36:45 pm
Winter is coming! ;)

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/25/us/snow-leopard-coronavirus-san-diego-trnd/index.html

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 26, 2021, 03:33:35 pm
Well my, my my. Just returned from the GP to schedule my 2nd AZ dose and get my PTSD meds prescription, and witnessed a woman in her 30s in tears at reception. Why? She had had her first AZ dose the other day and was having some adverse reactions and was terrified that she was going to die. And guess what she was quoting as to the reason why... all the pseudo science peddlers, anti-vaxxer info and what friends had told her about the vaccines being more dangerous than Covid!! Fortunately one of the Docs saw her immediately - naturally I didn't mind her going in ahead of my appointment.

Got me to thinking about the mental health impact on folks from vaccine fear mongerers and the further damage to those already with a mental health issues from these -- well meaning -- ignorant, misinformed drongos.

When she came out from seeing the Doc, I went in (to the same Doc). Terrific fella. He told me a little of her concerns. She was experiencing the mild effects of the vaccine, mild headache, muscle aches and slight rise in temperature. Little he could say placated her fear. When I left and went to my car, she was still pacing the car park, in tears. Yours truly had a chat with her... she's much better now. I confess to feeling very tempted to dropping the next anti-vaxxer I meet.
You're a bloody good man Baggers, she was lucky you were around. Your good deed for the day is day, have a beer on me.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 26, 2021, 03:40:11 pm
You're a bloody good man Baggers, she was lucky you were around. Your good deed for the day is day, have a beer on me.

Thank you, GTC. I'm a sucker for folks in distress, when she learned what I did she asked if I could talk with her brother (addiction issues).

Is it okay if I have a few beers on you tonight!! Full strength of course  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 26, 2021, 03:41:46 pm
When I left and went to my car, she was still pacing the car park, in tears. Yours truly had a chat with her... she's much better now. I confess to feeling very tempted to dropping the next anti-vaxxer I meet.

You're a good man @Baggers !!  Those crazies need to be silenced.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 26, 2021, 04:20:14 pm
You're a good man @Baggers !!  Those crazies need to be silenced.

They're doing so much harm, CC old son. Just c0ckheads.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 26, 2021, 04:57:59 pm
I confess to feeling very tempted to dropping the next anti-vaxxer I meet.
Some call themselves her friend! :o

I think I have mentioned this previously in this very forum, if I can find the report I'll post a link.

There was a report late last year or early this year from a UK Health group, it studied the deleterious effects of duress and stress on vaccination and other medicine, it did a study in both animal and human models. They found that the stress and duress, be it induced in animals or caused by the turd-burgling anti-vaxxers was in fact deadly than any injection! Summarised, when people are under duress/stress it imparts real world chemical changes in a patients body, those changes can go on to cause medicines and vaccines to act differently.

For the sceptics the speaker then cited the common scenario in dealing with children, some adult sedatives can be a stimulant for children, it has a name called a Paradoxical Reaction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradoxical_reaction

Indeed, it seems FaceBook, Instagram and Twitter can kill you!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 26, 2021, 05:27:07 pm
Don’t say that! I’m needle-phobic and when I went for the jab they put me in a separate room on a bed (maybe for my safety but probably so I didn’t scare off everyone waiting for a free cubicle). If your theory about stress affecting the vaccine is right, I’m rooted.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 26, 2021, 06:47:08 pm
I read a headline that some women are claiming their breasts have gotten bigger since the Pfizer jab. If it does have an effect on appendages, bring it on ;D  ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 26, 2021, 06:52:53 pm
I read a headline that some women are claiming their breasts have gotten bigger since the Pfizer jab. If it does have an effect on appendages, bring it on ;D  ;D

Beats an implant !!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on July 26, 2021, 10:02:52 pm
I read a headline that some women are claiming their breasts have gotten bigger since the Pfizer jab. If it does have an effect on appendages, bring it on ;D  ;D

So anyone tried it? What's the verdict?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 26, 2021, 10:27:33 pm
This isn't necessarily a good thing - Google gynecomastia!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: deepbluesee on July 27, 2021, 07:51:08 am
https://youtu.be/ndj2oygQlRY
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 27, 2021, 08:04:21 am
Gravity will level the playing field.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 27, 2021, 11:06:05 am
Dan Andrews has celebrated seeing off Delta twice, giving the credit to Victorians working together, saying no other jurisdiction in the world has managed to do that. Meanwhile, 172 new local cases in NSW.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 27, 2021, 12:49:52 pm
Dan Andrews has celebrated seeing off Delta twice, giving the credit to Victorians working together, saying no other jurisdiction in the world has managed to do that. Meanwhile, 172 new local cases in NSW.

I will never believe a word he says on any subject ... the deaths record speaks for itself.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 27, 2021, 01:10:46 pm
I will never believe a word he says on any subject ... the deaths record speaks for itself.
Yes, the Vic deaths tally is huge so far, but I have to admit that most of the historical deaths came in Federally run aged care facilities that Scotty wanted to handball responsibility for!

Hundreds might have been saved if Scotty cared as much for the Vic elderly as he does for his NSW electorate!

In the interim, Gladys is telling everyone how good she has done! :o

None of them deserve a gold star, not a single one!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 27, 2021, 01:18:55 pm
Capcom, your 2 statements don't seem to be connected. That you won't believe a word he says is no doubt true. But the deaths last year don't seem to be a basis for that position.

Deaths in NSW are accelerating but fortunately the most vulnerable segment of the population, older people, has been largely protected by vaccinations. That should help NSW avoid the number of deaths that occurred amongst completely unprotected older folk last year. And hopefully the Federal Govt has made sure the aged care facilities under its aegis aren't as vulnerable now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 27, 2021, 01:29:14 pm
Has anyone heard any news regarding local footy, I can't find anything relevant?

I think it's getting close to the point local footy seasons will be scrubbed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 27, 2021, 01:35:36 pm
Capcom, your 2 statements don't seem to be connected. That you won't believe a word he says is no doubt true. But the deaths last year don't seem to be a basis for that position.

Deaths in NSW are accelerating but fortunately the most vulnerable segment of the population, older people, has been largely protected by vaccinations. That should help NSW avoid the number of deaths that occurred amongst completely unprotected older folk last year. And hopefully the Federal Govt has made sure the aged care facilities under its aegis aren't as vulnerable now.

But they are ... Andrews had no Delta to deal with at that time.  Last thing I want to do is bring this back to a state by state death count.  Jenny Mikakos?  Cedar meats?  ADF?

Anyway, I don't like him ... or Gladys for that matter
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 27, 2021, 01:36:41 pm
Community sport is back on for kids and adults, both for training and competition. Don't know what the rule will be regarding spectators though.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 27, 2021, 01:43:44 pm
Capcom, Covid may have got smarter but we've also learnt a lot about fighting it. Alpha was plenty bad enough to handle when we had much less idea about how to fight it last year. Remember we had nuffies promoting HydroChloroquine as the silver bullet. Now we have vaccines. We've had the benefit of learning from mistakes committed over the last 18 months. Clearly, Victoria has learnt all the lessons over that time while NSW failed to do so.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on July 27, 2021, 03:15:49 pm
Dr John Campbell talking about post-vaccination transmission. It does make me wonder about all the language politicians are using about the Vaccine being our way out to 'freedom' and more importantly in containing 'spread'.

https://youtu.be/wNbs4LCgrcY

**Edit: It also brings into question the efficacy of the proposed Vaccine passport. Do we see a return to pre-travel shots prior to taking holidays? Perhaps something tied to changing seasons, the school year or financial year change?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on July 27, 2021, 04:11:41 pm
Capcom, Covid may have got smarter but we've also learnt a lot about fighting it. Alpha was plenty bad enough to handle when we had much less idea about how to fight it last year. Remember we had nuffies promoting HydroChloroquine as the silver bullet. Now we have vaccines. We've had the benefit of learning from mistakes committed over the last 18 months. Clearly, Victoria has learnt all the lessons over that time while NSW failed to do so.

Clearly we are the gold standard now, Dan doesn't really need to boast about it though. Just let the results speak for themselves.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 27, 2021, 04:35:43 pm
How can it be that NSW had 172 cases today, with a large percentage of those cases(79) circulating freely while infectious in the public spaces, and yet they are unwinding some lockdown regions?

I'd be slamming the border shut as well, people will flea to regions where lockdown is reduced and spread the virus!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 27, 2021, 07:13:13 pm
NSW lockdown extended by 4 weeks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 27, 2021, 07:37:21 pm
It will be longer than that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 28, 2021, 09:24:07 am
Clearly we are the gold standard now, Dan doesn't really need to boast about it though. Just let the results speak for themselves.

Yes. He clearly learned the lessons from last year and is taking protecting his state very seriously. But as Wingman MAV pointed out, many of the deaths last year were due to the Federal Govs poor handling of their responsibility to aged care... over quite some time. Who is the Federal Health Minister?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 28, 2021, 09:32:33 am
Dr John Campbell talking about post-vaccination transmission. It does make me wonder about all the language politicians are using about the Vaccine being our way out to 'freedom' and more importantly in containing 'spread'.

https://youtu.be/wNbs4LCgrcY

**Edit: It also brings into question the efficacy of the proposed Vaccine passport. Do we see a return to pre-travel shots prior to taking holidays? Perhaps something tied to changing seasons, the school year or financial year change?



My understanding is that once vaccinated you are far better protected from developing severe symptoms. However the vaccines will continue to evolve, develop and improve as this Covid thing mutates into stronger variants. We've got it for a long time.

I would imagine that those who choose to remain unvaccinated will really be playing Russian Roulette... especially with the very young, ill and immune compromised folks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 28, 2021, 09:45:16 am
As an aside, when I visited our new GP the other day -- having sold up and moved recently -- I had a good chat with him about vaccines, especially in light of the young woman living in fear after her jab who he'd just seen. Interesting dude. English, mid to late 40s. Anyway, turns out he has a PhD in a related field - his wall is filled with all manner of medical degrees, no wonder he has a long waiting list - vast expertise above and beyond his GP qualifications. Not your sausage meat GP. Notorious for running way behind schedule as he doesn't hesitate to spend as much time with his patients as is needed.

So I asked him what vaccine he chose for himself. He didn't hesitate to say AZ for himself and his wife. Why? The AZ technology is tried and true whereas the newer technology he doesn't quite trust yet. Just one cats view, but he put his money where his mouth is... or in this case, his and his wife's life. Interesting.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 28, 2021, 10:05:53 am
Indonesia seems to be going thru a VERY rough ride.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on July 28, 2021, 11:06:40 am
Yes. He clearly learned the lessons from last year and is taking protecting his state very seriously. But as Wingman MAV pointed out, many of the deaths last year were due to the Federal Govs poor handling of their responsibility to aged care... over quite some time. Who is the Federal Health Minister?

Why can't you just blame our government?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 28, 2021, 12:35:18 pm
So I asked him what vaccine he chose for himself. He didn't hesitate to say AZ for himself and his wife. Why? The AZ technology is tried and true whereas the newer technology he doesn't quite trust yet. Just one cats view, but he put his money where his mouth is... or in this case, his and his wife's life. Interesting.
The technology used for AZ has been around since the 60s, I made the point it's Pfizer that is the newbie, but the social media types paint AZ as unproven technology which is the exact opposite of the real situation.

Social media also paints Novavax and J&J as tried and tested, they are the same technology as AZ.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 28, 2021, 01:34:19 pm
The technology used for AZ has been around since the 60s, I made the point it's Pfizer that is the newbie, but the social media types paint AZ as unproven technology which is the exact opposite of the real situation.

Social media also paints Novavax and J&J as tried and tested, they are the same technology as AZ.
Novavax is different if you read the link below, even my GP said it looks very promising but said it will create problems in terms of more people wanting it and turning away from the Pfizer like what has happened with AstraZ.
My prediction is they will delay introducing it to allow for full takeup of Pfizer, its meant to be delayed now and not here until 2022 ...
https://theconversation.com/what-is-novavax-australias-third-covid-vaccine-option-and-when-will-we-get-it-157227
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 28, 2021, 01:59:01 pm
Why can't you just blame our government?


For what?

Just to be pedantic, I prefer accountability to blame. There is absolutely no doubt, in hindsight, that the very late lockdown by VIC last year resulted in much suffering, likewise the Feds poor handling of aged care. But all our governments were still learning about this virus and how to deal with it so dreadful mistakes were inevitable - though the Feds poor efforts in aged care for many years contributed greater due to their neglect. The pressing point is, did we learn from it? Seems VIC and most other states did. Seems NSW didn't.

Most important is how we deal with it now and for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 28, 2021, 02:07:58 pm
Novavax is different if you read the link below, even my GP said it looks very promising but said it will create problems in terms of more people wanting it and turning away from the Pfizer like what has happened with AstraZ.
My prediction is they will delay introducing it to allow for full takeup of Pfizer, its meant to be delayed now and not here until 2022 ...
https://theconversation.com/what-is-novavax-australias-third-covid-vaccine-option-and-when-will-we-get-it-157227

This Novavax seems very encouraging. Probably end up being my, and many others folks', 3rd jab next year. Hope we get to manufacture it here... supporting local industry and employment opportunities.

No doubt technologies will keep evolving until we get on top of this thing. And more stringent safety measures will be enforced in labs fcking around with these viruses. ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 28, 2021, 03:10:29 pm
Novavax is different if you read the link below, even my GP said it looks very promising but said it will create problems in terms of more people wanting it and turning away from the Pfizer like what has happened with AstraZ.
My prediction is they will delay introducing it to allow for full takeup of Pfizer, its meant to be delayed now and not here until 2022 ...
https://theconversation.com/what-is-novavax-australias-third-covid-vaccine-option-and-when-will-we-get-it-157227
As I understand the AZ, Novavax and J&J only differ in manufacture by targeting different segments of the virus, with all three using the same fundamental manufacturing process.

Novavax uses synthetic component, made in the lab to mimic a part of the virus, introduced by a neutral vector. AZ and J&J use a segment of virus DNA introduced using a neutral vector.

I heard it summarised, Pfizer/Moderna are completely new synthetic, Novavax is 50/50 new synthetic / natural traditional, and AZ and J&J are 100% natural traditional. That is natural as in as natural as they can be, and synthetic as in novel.

The age of the technologies used is the give away, AZ, Novavax and J&J uses techniques in manufacture around since the 60s. The mRNA vaccines made by Pfizer and Moderna did not exist until about the mid 2000s.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 28, 2021, 04:13:54 pm
This Novavax seems very encouraging. Probably end up being my, and many others folks', 3rd jab next year. Hope we get to manufacture it here... supporting local industry and employment opportunities.

No doubt technologies will keep evolving until we get on top of this thing. And more stringent safety measures will be enforced in labs fcking around with these viruses. ;)
Novavax is on the smaller size compared to Pfizer and Astra who are Big Pharma, it does manufacture in Sth Korea and I think might have something going on in India but requires a bit of sponsorship to make things happen unlike the other two.
Bill Gates is one who has tipped in some money to help fund Novavax projects, not sure if they would get any money to help them set up in Australia. Moderna is the company more likely to setup in Australia but they usually partner with other companies to help manufacture and peddle their products.
As LP has suggested in previous posts the business aspects and marketing of vaccines seems as important to these companies as the finished product and although no fan of AstraZ vaccine I am happy to admit it has fallen victim to Pfizer's bigger brand name on the world stage and more aggressive marketing tactics.
AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson have committed to not making a profit from the pandemic, while Moderna and Pfizer did not. AstraZeneca reserved the right, however, to declare the pandemic phase over and take profits from later vaccine sales.
 At the start of 2020, Novavax was a clinical-stage biotech with minimal revenue and no products on the market. Now, it has trailing revenues of more than $475 million, and by the end of this year, it might be selling two different vaccines,earning more than $4 billion in annual revenue.
IMHO while these companies are giving us vaccines for little cost at the minute, we have to remember they have been funded by Euro Goverments, the USA Government and some privates, that wont continue after the pandemic is seen as controlled and the price will rise as AstraZ Officials have indicated.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 28, 2021, 04:21:35 pm
Nice summary @ElwoodBlues1

I think AZ have been very tactical, a COVID vaccine might not even be part of their long term plan, as they got a bunch of governments to fund the setup of local vaccine manufacture based on their technologies. But that requires patents and contracts to defend which is expensive.

Pfizer have gone for more immediate gains, with closed proprietary techniques some of which is commercial in confidence.

I'm not sure which tactic is wiser long term.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 28, 2021, 04:59:02 pm
Nice summary @ElwoodBlues1

I think AZ have been very tactical, a COVID vaccine might not even be part of their long term plan, as they got a bunch of governments to fund the setup of local vaccine manufacture based on their technologies. But that requires patents and contracts to defend which is expensive.

Pfizer have gone for more immediate gains, with closed proprietary techniques some of which is commercial in confidence.

I'm not sure which tactic is wiser long term.
Pfizer paid out 2.3 billion in a legal case over false marketing of one of their products in 2003 and have had a  string of legal cases against them. They must have a legal dept as big as their research area as they always seem to be involved in some dubious actions. I'm sure they will stop at nothing to make sure they are the Government preferred subsidized supplier of Booster Vaccines in as many countries as they can, this is big business after the pandemic is under control, not often when a Big Pharma company can have everyone essentially forced to have their product twice a year or pay triple for the alternative.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 28, 2021, 10:04:03 pm
https://au.news.yahoo.com/china-lashes-australias-national-vaccine-embarrassment-113859129.html?.tsrc=fp_deeplink

The Old Chinese propaganda machine in full swing, they seem to have forgotten about Wuhan and the origins of this outbreak.
Same bunch of Funsters have vowed to take down our Iron Ore industry as well and switch supply to Brazil, the latter have had all sorts of problems with their mining, Covid etc and production dropped to nothing causing the Chinese to have to buy all their IO off us and pay top dollar and they have been squealing about it. Now they want Brazil to get back online mining their brains out with political inducements I presume  so they can get the price of IO dropped and screw our economy as punishment for our siding with the USA, Japan, Taiwan etc etc....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 28, 2021, 10:26:50 pm
F**k china
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 28, 2021, 11:10:17 pm
Farkem, they take us and the world for fools, they are dumb as a box of rocks. Got a Chinese acquaintance who is part of a Uni buddies WhatsApp group Im in, you should see the crap the gullible kent peddles on it, I tear him a new one weekly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2021, 11:09:45 am
Oh boy ...  239 new cases in NSW. Of these, 66 were infectious in the community, 22 were in isolation for part of their infectious period and the isolation status of 70 cases remains under investigation. There’s now disagreement amongst modellers about whether the current restrictions in NSW can bring numbers down.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 29, 2021, 11:19:35 am
Oh boy ...  239 new cases in NSW. Of these, 66 were infectious in the community, 22 were in isolation for part of their infectious period and the isolation status of 70 cases remains under investigation. There’s now disagreement amongst modellers about whether the current restrictions in NSW can bring numbers down.
On average, the number of infectious in the community seems to be a trend line that is rising, it's very hard to see how the partial lockdown can work!

I wonder if those comments about disagreement between modellers is a disagreement between real modellers and epidemiologists or just noise from some opponents of lockdown. When Scotty from marketing starts to appear like the voice of reason, Gladys has a huge problem!

My associates in the UK paint a grim picture after freedom day, they are setting vaccination records but it's the doubters and those wilfully disobeying that are screwing over those efforts. My associates seem more stressed about the anti-vax dissenters than they are about the vaccines or dose of COVID, while I don't think that is necessarily a rational line of thought, I can understand why they have that perception. They seem to fear that the ongoing wilful resistance won't change, but the publics willingness to push through may fade, and the anarchists win! When that happens, those with legitimate reasons why they can't be vaccinated, lose big time!

It's interesting that the shock jocks keep on keeping on with the subversive message, because it's effectively barracking for their own demise given there is a very good chance their entrenched supporter base will ultimately be the biggest victim!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2021, 11:46:31 am
I can only go the headline as I’m blocked by the paywall: Scientists split over whether Sydney’s lockdown is tight enough to tame outbreak (https://www.theage.com.au/national/nsw/scientists-split-over-whether-sydney-s-lockdown-is-tight-enough-to-tame-outbreak-20210728-p58dpk.html), The Age.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 29, 2021, 11:52:30 am
On average, the number of infectious in the community seems to be a trend line that is rising, it's very hard to see how the partial lockdown can work!

I wonder if those comments about disagreement between modellers is a disagreement between real modellers and epidemiologists or just noise from some opponents of lockdown. When Scotty from marketing starts to appear like the voice of reason, Gladys has a huge problem!

My associates in the UK paint a grim picture after freedom day, they are setting vaccination records but it's the doubters and those wilfully disobeying that are screwing over those efforts. My associates seem more stressed about the anti-vax dissenters than they are about the vaccines or dose of COVID, while I don't think that is necessarily a rational line of thought, I can understand why they have that perception. They seem to fear that the ongoing wilful resistance won't change, but the publics willingness to push through may fade, and the anarchists win! When that happens, those with legitimate reasons why they can't be vaccinated, lose big time!

It's interesting that the shock jocks keep on keeping on with the subversive message, because it's effectively barracking for their own demise given there is a very good chance their entrenched supporter base will ultimately be the biggest victim!
The English need a dose of brain cells injected with every vaccine, they won't modify their behaviour and think the vaccine allows them to ignore social distancing, wearing masks and sanitising.
Boof head Boris is clueless and the best thing we can do is lock the borders tight and keep the party loving Poms out of our country.
I'm surprised my English dopey relo's haven't contracted CoVid... The alcohol in their bloodstream must be killing the virus like it has their brain cells.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on July 29, 2021, 11:58:14 am
Reckon the NSW cops will come down REALLY hard on any demos this weekend should they occur. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 29, 2021, 12:09:17 pm
Reckon the NSW cops will come down REALLY hard on any demos this weekend should they occur. 

I think any demos will see the Police use a bit more force than usual, Demos are a disgrace in these tough times and
a waste of police and health resources not to mention the high risk of CoVid transmission.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 29, 2021, 12:13:33 pm
I can only go the headline as I’m blocked by the paywall: Scientists split over whether Sydney’s lockdown is tight enough to tame outbreak (https://www.theage.com.au/national/nsw/scientists-split-over-whether-sydney-s-lockdown-is-tight-enough-to-tame-outbreak-20210728-p58dpk.html), The Age.
Don't bother, they only offer generic identities for the alleged Gladys boosters while directly naming those who call for much stronger lockdowns. I suspect the boosters do not really exist at all and that the media have just re-purposed select parts of adjunct reports!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2021, 12:14:26 pm
One thing I read suggests the difficulty with the modelling is that only 40% of people are staying home. If 80% of people stayed home, the lockdown might be more successful.

One problem is that keeping shops open and classing those that work there as essential workers means those workers need to leave the house to go to work. And those workers are probably more likely to hail from the locked down areas than from the elite North Shore.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 29, 2021, 12:20:54 pm
I can only go the headline as I’m blocked by the paywall: Scientists split over whether Sydney’s lockdown is tight enough to tame outbreak (https://www.theage.com.au/national/nsw/scientists-split-over-whether-sydney-s-lockdown-is-tight-enough-to-tame-outbreak-20210728-p58dpk.html), The Age.

If you delete your cache and history you should be able to access both the Age and SMH. I think there's a 5 article limit, unless it changed recently.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 29, 2021, 12:50:12 pm
One problem is that keeping shops open and classing those that work there as essential workers means those workers need to leave the house to go to work. And those workers are probably more likely to hail from the locked down areas than from the elite North Shore.
Gladys had boutique clothing stores and bespoke shoe stores as essential businesses.

It was a lockdown joke!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2021, 06:15:55 pm
Unbelievable! The traffic controller at the Moonee Valley Covid Testing site who tested positive had refused the vaccine. The unvaccinated shouldn’t be employed in jobs where they’re likely to come into contact with infected people . Sack any who aren’t vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on July 29, 2021, 07:10:34 pm
Unbelievable! The traffic controller at the Moonee Valley Covid Testing site who tested positive had refused the vaccine. The unvaccinated shouldn’t be employed in jobs where they’re likely to come into contact with infected people . Sack any who aren’t vaccinated.

Why do people relate being vaccinated with reducing the chance of transmission?  The vaccines offer little to no resistance to contracting Covid and no help at all against transmitting it.  They are both solely formulated to reduce the severity of Covid to assist which inturn reduces the pressure on the public health system.

I know if you watch the daily ground hog day reports many give the impression that if you have the vaccine you are safe to be around and we will only be safe and Covid free once the whole nation (starting off as the elderly, then included the mid age now that want children vaccinated) but this is just another lie for those in charge.  The current vaccines are for the sole personal protection of those who receive it and hence why i see very little benefit in vaccinating young adults and are dead against vaccinating children! As a matter of fact once they included vaccinating children in their PR spin, that was the point when i started to really wonder if the advise we are getting is accurate and hence why imo its every persons choice to take it or not to take it. I'm perfectly fine either way and think each person should have the discussion with their doctor and make a decision accordingly and as children have little issue with Covid exposing them to these sorts of vaccines is a far greater risk as they simply havent been around long enough to see the real effects on them.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 29, 2021, 08:13:04 pm
Unbelievable! The traffic controller at the Moonee Valley Covid Testing site who tested positive had refused the vaccine. The unvaccinated shouldn’t be employed in jobs where they’re likely to come into contact with infected people . Sack any who aren’t vaccinated.
And did I hear correctly that he visited his GF at the Maribyrnong apartment that was in total isolation? Sack and fine the kent and his GF immediately.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 29, 2021, 10:03:01 pm
Myth busters.

1.  The unvaccinated guy may not have refused a vaccine, he just wasn't vaccinated.  Not long ago, they were turning people away for first dose because Pfizer wasn't available.

2.  He wasn't involved in close contact with people being tested he just worked at the site in moonee valley.

3.  He visited his girlfriend at the Newport apartments that have resulted in them being shut down, not whilst they were shut down.

Now I've got that out of the way, I'll post another myth buster.

Yes its true, vaccination doesn't stop you catching nor spreading the virus, BUT if you did catch covid the window of viral shedding and load, will likely be smaller in someone who is vaccinated vs someone unvaccinated.

You could argue that someone vaccinated might be more likely to spread it if they ignore mild symptoms because they might not even know they're sick, but either way there's no guarantees.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/100332454



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2021, 11:00:04 pm
Myth busters.

1.  The unvaccinated guy may not have refused a vaccine, he just wasn't vaccinated.  Not long ago, they were turning people away for first dose because Pfizer wasn't available.
The media report was that he was offered the vaccine and turned it down.  I don’t post rumours drawn from social media or Snowy from the Pub.

2.  He wasn't involved in close contact with people being tested he just worked at the site in moonee valley.
We’d better hope he caught it at the testing sire and that’s the working theory of authorities. All it takes is a conversation with someone coming for a test. If this assumption is incorrect, then there’s a mystery case in the community who infected him at some unknown place. That’ll ring alarm bells.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 30, 2021, 05:23:56 am


What constitutes refusal of a vaccine anyway?

Did he sign a waiver saying he wouldn't get one?

According to the abc article i googled this is the quote:

Quote
"It's an important point that this individual was not having really close, direct contact with people coming through those testing sites, as someone who was assessing to direct traffic," he said.

I know people refusing to take a vaccine that currently are health care workers and will get one on their terms.

You see a lot in our health care networks.  I know people who have some trepidation in vaccination.   They're delaying for now but not refusing.   I imagine this guy is similar.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 30, 2021, 09:17:41 am
Online dictionary definition of ‘refuse’:
Quote
indicate that one is not willing to accept or grant (something offered or requested).
"she refused a cigarette"
A refusal can be a one-time-only thing. Running with the example of the woman who refused a cigarette, she may well have accepted a cigarette the next time one was offered.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on July 30, 2021, 09:24:24 am
Or she could be a foaming at the mouth anti smoker, we’ll never know.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 30, 2021, 09:35:14 am
It looks as though we Victorians have dodged a bullet, though. Apparently, the Traffic Controller’s close contacts have all tested negative so far, so the chances are he didn’t infect anyone.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 30, 2021, 10:21:33 am
Any advocates of letting it run free before enough of the population are vaccinated need to have a good look at how it all went wrong for Netherland over the last two months. Spiking at 11,000 cases a day two weeks ago, and still sitting at 3,500 cases a day at the moment despite starting the countries hardest lockdown so far back in early June.

https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=netherland+covid&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

They get to find out over the next few weeks how bad it could get as the deaths lag infections by about 3 to 4 weeks on average, although that lag/delay is lengthening as doctors get better at treating COVID-19.

Netherland only had about 35% of the population fully vaccinated when it opened up, when the Sars-CoV-2 specialists were telling them they needed more than 75% vaccinated. The politicians ignored the advice.

Gladys placed a similar bet! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 30, 2021, 10:55:38 am
We can also look at the UK. They have a vaccination rate we can only dream about 56% fully vaccinated (with the rate of vaccination for over-18s being about 88% for 1 dose & 70-80% fully vaccinated). When Boris Johnson dropped all restrictions on 'Freedom Day', the fear was the UK would unleash Covid on the world. But infection rates are going down. This is a hopeful sign: vaccinate over 60% (and preferably 80%) of the population and get back to living without Covid causing mayhem. Fingers crossed things go well in the UK.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 30, 2021, 10:57:28 am
We can also look at the UK. They have a vaccination rate we can only dream about, 88% or thereabouts. When Boris Johnson dropped all restrictions on 'Freedom Day', the fear was the UK would unleash Covid on the world. But infection rates are going down. This is a hopeful sign: vaccinate over 80% of the population and get back to living without Covid causing mayhem. Fingers crossed things go well in the UK.
I think you should relate those figures to @shawny‍ , the UK's result is supporting proof that vaccination helps reduce infections and reduce transmission.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 30, 2021, 11:22:25 am
The CDC is concerned that vaccinated people infected with Covid are as infectious as unvaccinated people who are infected. Studies suggest that (of course, more work needs to be done). That's why the CDC changed its advice to require masks indoors and out regardless of vaccination status.

However, if vaccines prevent a good percentage of recipients from getting Covid, then that reduces the rate of infection in the population. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 30, 2021, 11:58:31 am
The CDC is concerned that vaccinated people infected with Covid are as infectious as unvaccinated people who are infected. Studies suggest that (of course, more work needs to be done). That's why the CDC changed its advice to require masks indoors and out regardless of vaccination status.

However, if vaccines prevent a good percentage of recipients from getting Covid, then that reduces the rate of infection in the population.
I think the problem is that public compliance is often taken for granted, but public compliance rarely is ever matches the guidelines. The UK found this out when they did some large scale studies of sporting events, public compliance with the rules was apparently below 15%, and the biggest problem was exposed to be public behaviour around the events not in the venue. The homes, pubs and clubs people gathered at before or after. I suspect the same will apply with office workers on the morning coffee run or post work socialising!

The fundamental is that for compliant behaviour the vaccines seem to reduce both infection and transmission, but if people change their behaviour too radically the level of exposure changes and the figures then vary. I heard a couple of experts on podcasts a few weeks back who predicted this "over-correction" in public behaviour would cause a spike in the UK that should quickly settle.

Ideally the correct public path is cautious freedom, not unlimited celebration!

I suppose the worry is that being vaccinated encourages people to slack off and not to follow the rules that keep unvaccinated people safe.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 30, 2021, 01:04:18 pm
CNN reporting an internal CDC document warns Delta infections are likely more severe and Delta is spread as easily as chickenpox. Further, there are about 35,000 breakthrough infections per week in the US.

The good news in the report: vaccines are still 90% effective in preventing hospitalisation or death (a 25-fold reduction). The rate of breakthrough infections is minute given there are 75 million vaccinated people in the US (0.046%).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 30, 2021, 01:26:46 pm
CNN reporting an internal CDC document warns Delta infections are likely more severe and Delta is spread as easily as chickenpox.
It's hard to acknowledge that post when the only option is a "Like" button!   :(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 30, 2021, 02:15:05 pm
Apparently, the CDC report actually suggests vaccines are 80% effective rather than 90%; in other words, there’s a bit of a dip, particularly with older and immuno-suppressed people. The R0  is reportedly between 5 and 9 whereas the original R0 was between 2 and 3.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 30, 2021, 02:59:15 pm
The R0  is reportedly between 5 and 9 whereas the original R0 was between 2 and 3.
Yes, this is correct, the original strain R0 was about 2.5, the Delta Strain R0 is around 7.

People see that number and think is only 2x or 3x, but it's part of a growth calculation so 7 is hundreds or thousands of times more infectious than 2.5.

The approximate formula is R0n, where n is the number of infection cycles.

Our video doctor friend did a nice summary, for some reason this video sometimes loads part way through the video and you have to go back to the start to get at the basics;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDL6XZ8DDbs
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 30, 2021, 03:07:41 pm
Apparently, the CDC will publicly reveal its report on Friday, US time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 30, 2021, 03:18:57 pm
Apparently, the CDC will publicly reveal its report on Friday, US time.
The problem will be numbers like R0 depend on public behaviour, the real numbers are calculated assuming certain environmental conditions which include percentages of good or bad human behaviour. They have the 80/20 rule for example, 80% of cases are spread by only 20% of people.

But if public behaviour changes radically, for example of we all bunker down like Preppers, or if we all go stupid and party like it's 1999, the R0 will change dramatically.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 30, 2021, 03:19:45 pm
Apparently, China is battling an outbreak of Delta Covid in 8 provinces and 41,000 people are locked down in Beijing. Seems it came into China on a flight from Russia. Tokyo is setting a record with 4,000 daily infections, with hospitals bursting at the seams.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 30, 2021, 03:21:08 pm
Tokyo is setting a record with 4,000 daily infections, with hospitals bursting at the seams.
That may be an old figure, I've read that today Tokyo might hit 10,000 cases in one day, and that Japan wide it may double!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 31, 2021, 08:14:30 pm
https://au.news.yahoo.com/30-times-more-deadly-fears-covid-variants-could-merge-084519240.html?.tsrc=fp_deeplink
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 01, 2021, 07:36:52 am
Stretching the Pfizer interval from three to six weeks will probably have some effect on reducing the efficacy, but it is probably the right thing to do given the vast bulk of Delta cases are unvaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 01, 2021, 08:16:38 am
Stretching the Pfizer interval from three to six weeks will probably have some effect on reducing the efficacy, but it is probably the right thing to do given the vast bulk of Delta cases are unvaccinated.

According to the scientist I think it was spfs video it showed it actually yields better effects in the UK than it has in Israel.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 01, 2021, 10:43:38 am
Sober reading on Pfizer.

https://doctors4covidethics.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Pfizer-pharmacokinetics-and-toxicity.pdf
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 01, 2021, 10:47:19 am
According to the scientist I think it was spfs video it showed it actually yields better effects in the UK than it has in Israel.
Yes after the 2nd shot, but a longer interval after only the 1st dose increases the time risk of infection or transmission.

There is not much solid data on the difference between Pfizer and AZ for the Delta variant after only the 1st shot, but both appear to be about 65% effective at that early stage. The people I've heard talking about this suggest cross vaccination is the best strategy to maximise efficacy, but not many regions are doing it. However it's likely they will start to cross vaccinate as Delta grabs hold, so that patients get a strong reaction for both antibodies and T-Cell immunity.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 01, 2021, 10:51:30 am
Yes after the 2nd shot, but a longer interval after only the 1st dose increases the time risk of infection or transmission.

There is not much solid data on the difference between Pfizer and AZ for the Delta variant after only the 1st shot, but both appear to be about 65% effective at that early stage. The people I've heard talking about this suggest cross vaccination is the best strategy to maximise efficacy, but not many regions are doing it. However it's likely they will start to cross vaccinate as Delta grabs hold, so that patients get a strong reaction for both antibodies and T-Cell immunity.

T cell immunity from the vaccines? we'll see.

65% efficacy for delta - ROFL.

This guys reckons closer to zero.

https://rumble.com/vjs5hv-dr-peter-mccullough-on-australias-plan-to-open-the-borders..html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 01, 2021, 10:52:50 am
Sober reading on Pfizer.

https://doctors4covidethics.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Pfizer-pharmacokinetics-and-toxicity.pdf
The risks from Pfizer or AZ are similar, only the popular media / social media differentiate and that causes a public / political reaction.

The paper you link is a bit ordinary, it is talking about real world effects but exacerbates the bad effects. Also if you look at the last page and all the anonymous references, that's often a comment about the poor quality of the data and the inability of others to reproduce the results. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 01, 2021, 10:55:54 am
T cell immunity from the vaccines? we'll see.

65% efficacy for delta - ROFL.

This guys reckons closer to zero.

https://rumble.com/vjs5hv-dr-peter-mccullough-on-australias-plan-to-open-the-borders..html
Popular media and unqualified commentary associate efficacy with immunity, but efficacy is not purely a measure of immunity, efficacy is a combination of immunity / resistance as well as a reduction of symptoms and transmission.

A vaccine can even delivery zero immunity but still be high in efficacy if it greatly diminishes acute symptoms.

Almost no vaccine in history offers 65% immunity, or even 50% immunity, but that doesn't mean that they aren't delivering 65% or greater efficacy.

The way this is reported in social media alludes to some controversy, but there isn't and it could be the case that if they are measured the same way AZ and Pfizer are equal in efficacy. However there is a debate going on asking for global standards for measuring efficacy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 01, 2021, 11:11:05 am
Media are conflating two distinctly separate aspects of Sars-CoV-2 and trying to build some controversy.

The media are quoting experts who say there is no hope of elimination, and publishing conclusions that is due to the failed vaccination scheme or failed efficacy. But that is not true.

The experts are saying there is no hope of elimination because Sars-CoV-2 is now endemic and the chance to eliminate it is long passed us by.

Reduced vaccinations rates extend the pandemic, and delayed roll out is the primary reason for this, not reduced efficacy.

Many people are getting vaccinated too late, they left it to the last minute and as such even after vaccination they have not had enough time to develop a strong enough reaction to the vaccine. It takes about 4 weeks bare minimum for a vaccine dose to work.

Scotty and Gladys left it too late, they started off with the wrong tactic and also acted too slowly, and now that is a price NSW and Australia is paying or will pay.

It's alarming how silly some people can be, I know several who immediately departed Vic when the lockdown was lifted, leaving for the Gold Coast / Sunshine Coast! Now they are stuck there with a 14 days mandatory isolation if they return, they can't leave their accommodation and have limited restaurants or commercial services open for a next few days. They don't get that it's not over for any of us until it is over for all of us.

The quickest way out of this is for everyone to comply, if they don't then we are almost stuck in this loop forever, or at least until effective post infection treatments become available.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 01, 2021, 11:27:22 am
And NSW has another very bad preceding day number of cases.  A mess.  The natives must be getting very restless.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 01, 2021, 12:03:36 pm
Many people are getting vaccinated too late, they left it to the last minute and as such even after vaccination they have not had enough time to develop a strong enough reaction to the vaccine. It takes about 4 weeks bare minimum for a vaccine dose to work.
I watched an interview with a nurse in the US who said patients being admitted with Covid often beg her for the vaccine but she has to tell them it’s too late for that. Another nurse reported that she has had Covid patients on death’s door who refuse to accept they have Covid (a bit like Trump refusing to accept that he lost to “that guy”).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 01, 2021, 12:20:30 pm
Another nurse reported that she has had Covid patients on death’s door who refuse to accept they have Covid.
You know as well as I do, it's really 5G! :o ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on August 01, 2021, 01:53:06 pm
Sober reading on Pfizer.

https://doctors4covidethics.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Pfizer-pharmacokinetics-and-toxicity.pdf

I couldn't get past the first sentence of the second paragraph.   Not referenced and subjective.  First paragraph was interesting and was willing to go on!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 02, 2021, 04:37:51 pm
Cue the caterwauling ... looks like sports events will require proof of vaccinations and private businesses will be able to exclude the non-vaccinated as well. Not yet, but later on this year maybe. About bloody time! We should hire Arnold Swartznegger to do an advert telling the wankers who will bog on about their right to choose that “You have the right to die!”
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 02, 2021, 04:47:36 pm
Interesting that Warne was fully vaccinated and still got Covid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 02, 2021, 04:55:02 pm
Interesting that Warne was fully vaccinated and still got Covid.

The big question is... how crook did he get? Vaccinations won't necessarily prevent getting Covid, their primary task as I understand it, is preventing life threatening illness.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 02, 2021, 05:13:56 pm
Agree @Baggers ... won't know for a while as it was o'nite news at 5 a.m. today.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 02, 2021, 09:17:23 pm
The latest from the UK.

Tables 4,5 and 6 surely tell a story....

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1005517/Technical_Briefing_19.pdf
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 02, 2021, 09:59:58 pm
The latest from the UK.

Tables 4,5 and 6 surely tell a story....

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1005517/Technical_Briefing_19.pdf

What story do you assert they tell?

Honest question.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 03, 2021, 09:27:59 am
Agree @Baggers ... won't know for a while as it was o'nite news at 5 a.m. today.

Just read the article in the HUN with Warney reporting on his symptoms - mild. As he is in England he is seeing first hand the terrible impact and is a strong advocate for the 'double jab'. He got the Pfizer.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 03, 2021, 10:54:12 am
What story do you assert they tell?

Honest question.  

Not an assertion, but rather some easily drawn conclusions drawn from Government sourced empirical data.

Table 4 - the rate of death from the Alpha (UK) strain is more than 5 times the rate of death from Delta (Indian). Attachment 2.

              (and it would appear this is independent of any vaccine 'effect' looking at the previous reports)

Conclusion: Delta is far less virulent (which fits with virology 100).

Table 6 - Secondary attack rates (transmission in a more scary way) - Alpha 10.2%, 5.6% (household, non household)

              Delta 11.0, 5.8% - that is, same same as Alpha.

Conclusion: Delta is pretty much on a par with Alpha in terms of transmissability - despite the BS from many quarters. Which fits with what didn't happen with the Delta outbreak in Melbourne.

Table 5 - the real stand out.

            (see attachment 1 for a snippet)

The table shows 121,402 cases of Delta of the unvaccinated. 165 have sadly died. 0.1% of cases.

The table also shows 28,773 Delta cases in the fully vaccinated, 224 people sadly died. 0.8% of cases.

Conclusion: The PHE data shows that people who have received two doses of a CV19 vaccine have a 507% higher chance of dying due to the Delta variant than people who are unvaccinated.


Do your best LP.

And here's the laughable Burnet report Scomo and the Premiers plan to use to justify ongoing lockdowns....i'll comment more later (yet to read it in full) but this one chart caught my eye.

Risk benefit for the u50s, arguably even u60s??

https://www.burnet.edu.au/system/asset/file/4835/Burnet_Institute_Long-term_COVID-19_control_requires_a_combination_of_high_vaccination_and_intermittent_control_measures.pdf
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 03, 2021, 11:25:39 am
There is nothing in the data tables linked in the original document that supports Flyboy's conclusions, readers can investigate this on their own if they really want to take it further.

Flyboy has confused lethality with virulence.

Some of the figures Flyboy wants to misuse are percentages of percentages, and have to be judged relative to the duration/appearance of both the original and Delta strains. In effect Flyboy has published conclusions without regard to the underlying meaning of the figures.

The 2nd Burnet document is a simulation/model of what Long Term COVID might be like under high vaccination rates and various other mitigation schemes. The proportion of cases has to be measured relative to the percentage of the population, in this case if as many as 75% of people were vaccinated and 25% of people were not! When that consideration is made the simulation/model figures suggest the exact opposite of Flyboy's conclusions. Flyboy's conclusions of course contradict the documents own conclusions which are summarised on the very first page.

Severe COVID-19 is severe COVID-19, vaccination reduces your chance of getting severe COVID-19, but if you get severe COVID-19 it may not matter whether you have been vaccinated or not, you could just be misfortunate enough to be in the group the vaccines do not really work for. The true measure of this simulation/model is relative to the expected populations of people in each selected category.

As an aside;
Death and infection rates are a consequence of many factors, simple surveys and head counts that do not offer age or social demographics do not paint the full picture. It looks like with the spread of Delta reinfection rates are rising, the original strain is not providing strong immunity to the Delta strain, but you can't kill the vulnerable twice!

However, Delta is proving lethal in younger demographics.

Many vulnerable, even some who are double vaccinated and vulnerable, or perhaps those who become complacent will continue succumb to both the original strain and Delta. Why? Because vaccination does provide 100% immunity, nobody claimed vaccination had 100% efficacy, nobody has ever claimed that it's only a criticism levelled by those wishing to create certain uncertainty.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 03, 2021, 11:30:45 am
Listen to me only says LP, I know better.

(when clearly you don't).

Ignore the empirical data, rely on the models LP says (because they're far more scary). Yeah, good one.

The conclusions I drew could be reached by any switched on 8yo doing a comprehension test.

Very charitable of you to let others "take it further".

Such magnanimity!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 03, 2021, 11:41:24 am
Quote
However, Delta is proving lethal in younger demographics.

An LP special.

In Australia, 13 dead, the youngest was that 38yo lady (who may well have had one shot, the NSW authorities won't confirm or deny).

In the UK, back to the recent report.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1005517/Technical_Briefing_19.pdf

Table 4 again (page 14 for LP who can't find it seemingly):

Alpha deaths under 50 - 66 deaths or 0.1%

Delta? u50 - 45 or 0.0%

(ok, 0.02% if you go to 2dp).

Keep trying LP.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 03, 2021, 12:08:37 pm
An LP special.
There is no argument to have, there is nothing in the document that supports your conclusions.

In my opinion your hope is to influence people with a drive-by attack, it is a pretty poor ethic because to work it has to assume the forum's members are either too lazy, too stupid or don't care enough to look into and understand the lengthy documents you link. So in that context you can magically quote isolated figures and we will support your conclusions through shear volume or apathy without question.

I don't think our forum associates are stupid or lazy, they are more than capable of reading those documents and coming to their own conclusions, so I don't have the need to spell out here why each and every point you make is spurious. In many cases the claims you have made are so spurious they can be disproved with only a cursory glance, some documents contradict or disprove your hypothesis in the opening summary!

In effect you're just throwing darts, cherry-picking random figures that you think can support your case. You're the boy who cried wolf and the sad thing is even if you do eventually find something credible nobody will believe you, such a waste!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 03, 2021, 12:23:10 pm
I'm sure people will readily note your inability (yes, failure) to actually even attempt to refute the data or the primary school maths that I have used accurately.

But feel free to keep taking pot shots - good for a laugh.

A drive by attack? Spurious? Cherry picking?

By posting a link to a (complete, unadulterated) UK Government report that contains some very clear data that very clearly refutes your fragile narrative?

Are you suggesting the Report is fraudulent LP?

Or just that it should be ignored as you know better (again)?

As you correctly highlight, for once, people aren't dumb.

They can - and will - draw their own conclusions.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on August 03, 2021, 12:48:56 pm
The summary page from Fly's post probably covers the issues.

The risk assessment linked in the summary (attached) - is to be read in conjunction.  The information isn't static and will change as more information is known.

There is high confidence in two measures and low confidence in another two.

 



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 03, 2021, 12:55:09 pm
There is nothing in the data tables linked in the original document that supports Flyboy's conclusions, readers can investigate this on their own if they really want to take it further.

Flyboy has confused lethality with virulence.

Some of the figures Flyboy wants to misuse are percentages of percentages, and have to be judged relative to the duration/appearance of both the original and Delta strains. In effect Flyboy has published conclusions without regard to the underlying meaning of the figures.

The 2nd Burnet document is a simulation/model of what Long Term COVID might be like under high vaccination rates and various other mitigation schemes. The proportion of cases has to be measured relative to the percentage of the population, in this case if as many as 75% of people were vaccinated and 25% of people were not! When that consideration is made the simulation/model figures suggest the exact opposite of Flyboy's conclusions. Flyboy's conclusions of course contradict the documents own conclusions which are summarised on the very first page.

Severe COVID-19 is severe COVID-19, vaccination reduces your chance of getting severe COVID-19, but if you get severe COVID-19 it may not matter whether you have been vaccinated or not, you could just be misfortunate enough to be in the group the vaccines do not really work for. The true measure of this simulation/model is relative to the expected populations of people in each selected category.

As an aside;
Death and infection rates are a consequence of many factors, simple surveys and head counts that do not offer age or social demographics do not paint the full picture. It looks like with the spread of Delta reinfection rates are rising, the original strain is not providing strong immunity to the Delta strain, but you can't kill the vulnerable twice!

However, Delta is proving lethal in younger demographics.

Many vulnerable, even some who are double vaccinated and vulnerable, or perhaps those who become complacent will continue succumb to both the original strain and Delta. Why? Because vaccination does provide 100% immunity, nobody claimed vaccination had 100% efficacy, nobody has ever claimed that it's only a criticism levelled by those wishing to create certain uncertainty.

Just because I didn't highlight the hospitalisation numbers doesn't mean I don't get the difference between mortality and virulence.

But thanks.

Re the Burnet model, more garbage out of the Gates' stable....



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 03, 2021, 01:01:00 pm
The summary page from Fly's post probably covers the issues.

The risk assessment linked in the summary (attached) - is to be read in conjunction.  The information isn't static and will change as more information is known.

There is high confidence in two measures and low confidence in another two.




It's a facile risk assessment to be fair.

The risk assessment is entirely qualitative, not quantitative!

Funny how they have a low confidence in a comment "Delta has at least an equivalent case fatality rate to Alpha" when their own data suggests quite the opposite ie Delta 5x LESS deadly.

The numbers are the numbers - and yes, they will change over time BUT Delta is pretty much 100% now in UK (has been for some time). Alpha numbers are now all but set in stone (as that strain has disappeared).

 



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 03, 2021, 01:39:10 pm
The summary page from Fly's post probably covers the issues.

The risk assessment linked in the summary (attached) - is to be read in conjunction.  The information isn't static and will change as more information is known.

There is high confidence in two measures and low confidence in another two.
Thanks @dodge‍ , a measured response.

It's interesting to see how the public react to the science when it is communicated fairly conservatively.

We know scientific claims won't be made when they can't be strongly supported, so formal commentary based on early trends will always be conservative, the scientists want more data. Scientists won't make the early crow mistake that the HCQ boosters did. To some degree that leaves scientific and technical reports open to misuse and abuse as we know, however nobody having a rational look at this stuff will disagree with the conservative perspective taken by the scientists.

If the scientists go early they don't have enough data to be confident to the levels they would like, so the naysayers and critics take a cheap shot claiming there isn't enough data to support the conclusions or predictions. If the scientists don't go early they can see people might suffer, the critics will claim they should have been warned.

It's a no win for the scientists, but they persist because they know it is the right thing to do!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 03, 2021, 01:41:50 pm
Just because I didn't highlight the hospitalisation numbers doesn't mean I don't get the difference between mortality and virulence.
What you did or didn't post is irrelevant, it's your original conclusion you post that exposes your confusion.

The falling mortality of the original strains, and the rising case numbers of the Delta strain, would eventually expose the myth of what you persist with if it wasn't for the mitigation steps being taken. The delayed cross over is a consequence of mitigation not in difference to it.

Mitigation steps that included improved understanding of Sars-CoV-2, better treatment regimes, snap lockdowns, wide spread vaccinations, faster contact tracing and better quarantine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 03, 2021, 01:56:54 pm
Here is my reaction.

After a long time stewing about whats right and wrong, irrespective of where you sit on covid (lets face it, no one has any real idea of the long term impact of contracting covid) the idea that we can prevent people from getting sick rather than cure them after they have gotten sick, is at worst, logical.

Practically speaking it becomes a bit grey.  Do we unlock and lockdown incessently?  No, thats not really that practical, but the alternative isnt really any more practical, and the result might be that people simply choose themselves to stay home anyway (social data is backing this up).

I think we are all a bit fatigued.  I dont worry about the ranting and raving.  For the most part, no one is listening overly to what goes on in a football forum anyway.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 03, 2021, 02:02:55 pm
I think we are all a bit fatigued.  I dont worry about the ranting and raving.  For the most part, no one is listening overly to what goes on in a football forum anyway.
I understand @Thryleon

But I will always respond, simply because forums like this one, Facebook, Instagram or Twitter can through there influence kill or maim people with disinformation or misrepresented data.

It is not and never will be an innocent or trivial debate free of consequences.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 03, 2021, 02:09:12 pm
I understand @Thryleon

But I will always respond, simply because forums like this one, Facebook, Instagram or Twitter can through there influence kill or maim people with disinformation or misrepresented data.

It is not and never will be an innocent or trivial debate free of consequences.
Fair enough LP.

Thing is, people are going to have their platforms.  I recognised something about social media a while ago.  Ever noticed, that its almost a giant propaganda machine anyway?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 03, 2021, 02:18:04 pm
If Flyboy is correct, the mystery is why Gladys & Slomo have battened down the hatches as Delta started gathering strength.

After all, Gladys’ position was “We don’t do lockdowns!” She loved to smirk when asked why she wasn’t following Victoria’s example. She had every reason to respond to Dan Andrews and the media like the Norman soldiers in Monty Python & the Holy Grail:
Quote
“I don’t want to talk to you no more, you empty-headed animal-food-trough wiper. I fart in your general direction.“

Slomo would have happily joined her, given that he has taken a beating over the slow rollout leaving us vulnerable to Delta. But despite having every political reason to hold her line, she has instead capitulated and ordered increasingly severe lockdowns and Slomo has tried to convince everyone that he’s going to kick the strollout into top gear.

Perhaps if Gladys had retained Flyboy as her data analyst she wouldn’t have been bum-rushed into a rookie mistake.

Or maybe the real data analysts warned her that laughing at Tim the rabbit would end up with blood on her hands.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 03, 2021, 02:26:05 pm
Thing is, people are going to have their platforms.  I recognised something about social media a while ago.  Ever noticed, that its almost a giant propaganda machine anyway?
Yes that is one of it's potential features, but it doesn't mean everything is propaganda, and a lot of the really nasty stuff is pretty easy to disprove.

The experts haven't lost their voice entirely, they are just much much harder to hear over the throng of nutbags and lunatics.

btw., I'm not opposed to someone like Flyboy posing questions, in fact we need sceptics and healthy scepticism is how science really works. But science never works by deliberately cherry-picking or misrepresenting the data, in science if you fake it you're f#$%!d!

The crooks who do misrepresent data, even if they have a PhD after their name, aren't scientists!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on August 03, 2021, 02:34:51 pm
It's a facile risk assessment to be fair.

The risk assessment is entirely qualitative, not quantitative!

Funny how they have a low confidence in a comment "Delta has at least an equivalent case fatality rate to Alpha" when their own data suggests quite the opposite ie Delta 5x LESS deadly.

The numbers are the numbers - and yes, they will change over time BUT Delta is pretty much 100% now in UK (has been for some time). Alpha numbers are now all but set in stone (as that strain has disappeared).

Low confidence in fatality rate, as the numbers are low (they state this).  They also have had essentially 6 weeks of high Delta cases against ~14 mnths Alpha data.  I would hope that they would be looking at the data impassively and making informed conclusions as they are working in depth with this everyday.  Personally, I am pretty OK with taking British Health at their word.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 03, 2021, 02:51:15 pm
Low confidence in fatality rate, as the numbers are low (they state this).  They also have had essentially 6 weeks of high Delta cases against ~14 mnths Alpha data.  I would hope that they would be looking at the data impassively and making informed conclusions as they are working in depth with this everyday.  Personally, I am pretty OK with taking British Health at their word.
@dodge‍  That's it you're speaking too much sense, it has no place here, get out of the pool! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 03, 2021, 04:03:33 pm
What you did or didn't post is irrelevant, it's your original conclusion you post that exposes your confusion.

The falling mortality of the original strains, and the rising case numbers of the Delta strain, would eventually expose the myth of what you persist with if it wasn't for the mitigation steps being taken. The delayed cross over is a consequence of mitigation not in difference to it.

Mitigation steps that included improved understanding of Sars-CoV-2, better treatment regimes, snap lockdowns, wide spread vaccinations, faster contact tracing and better quarantine.

Who the f... are you to tell me what I am thinking?

Any idiot knows that lockdowns have never previously been recommended in history, prior to 2020, as EVERYONE with half a clue knows the cost of  lockdown is simply far, far too great.

And here you are advocating them. There's my assessment of your confusion.

You might be 'good' in your world, I've only seen lightweight obfuscation from you thus far.

Any conclusions I have drawn are irrefutable on the evidence presented.

No one doubts the numbers might slide, one way or the other, that is to fudge the issue though.

Dodge saying there is only 6 weeks data on Delta?

Delta has been the dominant strain in the UK since the end of March.....

The maths isn't hard.





Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 03, 2021, 04:06:12 pm
If Flyboy is correct, the mystery is why Gladys & Slomo have battened down the hatches as Delta started gathering strength.

After all, Gladys’ position was “We don’t do lockdowns!” She loved to smirk when asked why she wasn’t following Victoria’s example. She had every reason to respond to Dan Andrews and the media like the Norman soldiers in Monty Python & the Holy Grail:
Slomo would have happily joined her, given that he has taken a beating over the slow rollout leaving us vulnerable to Delta. But despite having every political reason to hold her line, she has instead capitulated and ordered increasingly severe lockdowns and Slomo has tried to convince everyone that he’s going to kick the strollout into top gear.

Perhaps if Gladys had retained Flyboy as her data analyst she wouldn’t have been bum-rushed into a rookie mistake.

Or maybe the real data analysts warned her that laughing at Tim the rabbit would end up with blood on her hands.

You can see the numbers as readily as I Mav.

If you want to disagree with my maths (which is Grade 4 maths) feel free....

It's nothing to do with me being 'right or wrong'.

It is the data. Hard empirical data. Not dodgy, wishy washy, easily manipulated black box models.

If I've made a computational error, I'll gladly put my hand up. I haven't.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 03, 2021, 04:43:14 pm
Who the f... are you to tell me what I am thinking?
Most of us write what we think, it's a dead giveaway, but I'll keep in mind for future debates you might be contrary to that! :o

As I've already responded, the documents you post do not support the conclusions you post, in fact the docs suggest the very opposite of your claims because the data is qualified and so it's context is important. Which I think is partly the point @dodge was making, and which seems quite reasonable.

Nobody is claiming the documents got the math wrong .........................! ;)

The spread of Delta comes after the learnings taken from the original strain, and after the actions taken to mitigate Sars-CoV-2, @dodge was quite right to point out this asymmetry, which is made obvious in the report and influences the conclusions. That important context is easily missed if disparate data points are cherry-picked from across the document.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 03, 2021, 05:14:52 pm
Any idiot knows that lockdowns have never previously been recommended in history, prior to 2020, as EVERYONE with half a clue knows the cost of  lockdown is simply far, far too great.
I suppose if you ignore history like the Spanish Flu you could be correct, ..........but maybe not! :o
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/how-cities-flattened-curve-1918-spanish-flu-pandemic-coronavirus

And they never did archaic things in the past like requiring masks! ::)
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/1217B/production/_112170147_04gettyimages-515181868.jpg)

I get you are hurting @flyboy77‍ , but protesting, denying or declining appropriate action while potentially promoting harmful behaviours or solutions is not the fastest way out of this. In fact your actions may extend the pain!

If you need it resolved quickly, if you want to get back as close to normal as can ever be expected, then get everyone vaccinated who can be vaccinated as soon as possible, get your family vaccinated, get your friends vaccinated and get on with it as quickly as possible while complying with the flattening of the curve and the mitigation strategies! ;)

They got it in 1918 and they didn't need the Interwebs to understand why! :o

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/986A/production/_112181093_gettyimages-592850496.jpg)
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/BFD3/production/_112170194_09gettyimages-1982467.jpg)
Court was held in open spaces to avoid indoor crowds.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 03, 2021, 05:26:27 pm

Any idiot knows that lockdowns have never previously been recommended in history, prior to 2020, as EVERYONE with half a clue knows the cost of  lockdown is simply far, far too great.


This idiot seems to vividly recall from his history lessons and an ABC special on the 'Spanish Flu' (so named not because it came from Spain, but that Spain was the first nation to provide accurate statistics and information) that Sydney did in fact resort to shutting many businesses, closing schools, entertainment venues and so on. The unemployment level spiked as a result of these 'lockdown' measures, along with mandatory masks and fines for those not wearing masks. Until these measures were instituted the virus was spreading uncontrollably. These measures did slow the infections and reduce death rates.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 03, 2021, 07:07:54 pm
Yes, no doubt lockdowns and masks have been used in the past, perhaps not to this extent, but the principle is exactly the same.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on August 04, 2021, 12:41:34 am
If you're interested, here's some real science about COVID-19, not half-arsed garbage from charlatans:

First up there's "COVID research: a year of scientific milestones" published in Nature: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00502-w

One little snippet to whet your appetite:

Quote
A large clinical trial has found no evidence that the drug hydroxychloroquine protects people from COVID-19.

Some world leaders have embraced hydroxychloroquine as a treatment for COVID-19 or as an agent to prevent the disease. David Boulware at the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis and his colleagues randomly assigned 821 people to take either hydroxychloroquine or a placebo within 4 days of exposure to SARS-CoV-2 (D. R. Boulware et al. N. Engl. J. Med. http://doi.org/dxkv; 2020). Some study participants were health-care workers who had contact with infected people; others shared a house with an infected person.

Then there's "A look into the future of the COVID-19 pandemic in Europe: an expert consultation" published in The Lancet: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(21)00162-9/fulltext

A brief quote from that paper follows:

Quote
Our starting point is the situation as of spring 2021. During the COVID-19 waves in winter 2020–2021, many European countries experienced high numbers of infections that, in some places, overwhelmed hospitals. This was partly due to insufficient ICU capacity in some countries [[2]]. Delayed responses and lower effectiveness of non-pharmaceutical interventions (NPIs) compared to the first wave also played a part [[3]]. Even countries that have had relatively few cases and a low death toll until then were hit severely in the winter. As of early 2021, Europe is experiencing another surge in cases, which appears to have peaked in April 2021. The emergence and severity of these waves has varied greatly across Europe (see Fig. 1, Fig. 2). The future development of the pandemic will also likely be heterogeneous. In the following sections we focus on three key factors that contribute to this heterogeneity.

The science is unequivocal and I really don't understand how/why anyone can't see that. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 04, 2021, 08:41:22 am
The science is unequivocal and I really don't understand how/why anyone can't see that.
@DJC‍  Thanks for the links.

Unfortunately, for many I think the real science doesn't matter, Sars-CoV-2 has become more a political issue than a issue of health and welfare. That is at least until they get sick, at which time it all changes and it becomes doctors and scientists aren't doing enough to save me, ................... ! ;)

Having listened to lots of experts understanding the heterogeneity is key.  They can study and use that info to correctly and quickly lead to Sars-CoV-2 being used against itself, hopefully leading to better more efficacious vaccines that can stop infection and transmission as well as reducing case severity. In the long term the hope is we will have a vaccine that like the Influenza vaccine is a blend built on several less virulent strains but in total more effective, as well as a predictive model that will allow the more accurate forecasts of future Sars-CoV-2 strains, much like in already done with the Influenza vaccines.

An interesting side effect of Sars-CoV-2, the mitigation steps taken to address Sars-CoV-2 might be throwing a short term spanner in the Influenza modelling. Some experts are warning the plummeting Influenza case rate could have a detrimental effect on the models used to predict next seasons Influenza strains. Apparently, like the Sars-CoV-2 vaccines the Influenza vaccine doesn't stop us getting Influenza, it mostly just moderates the symptoms so the infection becomes mild or asymptomatic. But researchers still use how the current strains spread to feed data into the predictive modelling for next years Influenza. The lack of cases is ironically bad for the model, as a result there are doubts about which future strains are most likely to be prominent, the experts worry not enough is being done now to prepare for next years Influenza.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 04, 2021, 08:58:27 am
If you're interested, here's some real science about COVID-19, not half-arsed garbage from charlatans:

First up there's "COVID research: a year of scientific milestones" published in Nature: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00502-w

One little snippet to whet your appetite:

Then there's "A look into the future of the COVID-19 pandemic in Europe: an expert consultation" published in The Lancet: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(21)00162-9/fulltext

A brief quote from that paper follows:

The science is unequivocal and I really don't understand how/why anyone can't see that. 

As we used to say in the Navy (oh, cr@p, here he goes again!), David -- Top Hole (where the premium rum was kept in them thar days of wooden ships).

As is my bent, I am fascinated by 'deniers' and the psychology of such folks and why they're drawn, somewhat compulsively, to such fringe and extremist views and the rejection of any science that is counter or different to their stance. I'll share some of my findings another time... not just my findings I should add. This is a phenomena that is well researched and reported on by a number of experts in the professions of psychology, psychiatry and allied fields.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 04, 2021, 09:58:29 am
The AFR had an article suggesting that to return to normal @70%Vaccination levels the global modelling says we would have to accept up to 20 deaths per day.
Pre Covid 8 people died per day in Australia from Influenza/Virus leading to pneumonia which may surprise some.
The AFR are of course balancing that vs the need to rebuild the world economies.
Selling 20 deaths a day including some vaccinated people in those numbers won't be an easy sell as well as carrying high numbers of infections maybe for a couple of years.
It may take mask wearing and light restrictions still applying to see the end of lockdowns even with decent vaccination rates..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 04, 2021, 10:15:26 am
If you're interested, here's some real science about COVID-19, not half-arsed garbage from charlatans:

First up there's "COVID research: a year of scientific milestones" published in Nature: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00502-w

One little snippet to whet your appetite:

Then there's "A look into the future of the COVID-19 pandemic in Europe: an expert consultation" published in The Lancet: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(21)00162-9/fulltext

A brief quote from that paper follows:

The science is unequivocal and I really don't understand how/why anyone can't see that. 

Gee, you go away for half a day and the boys gather round for a back slapping session.

So be it.

1. The Spanish Flu

They did not lock down, they quarantined the sick.

Healthy people were not.

Masks - indeed, the likely causes of most of the deaths due to Bacterial Pneumonia.

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/bacterial-pneumonia-caused-most-deaths-1918-influenza-pandemic

Quote
Pathologists of the time, he adds, were nearly unanimous in the conviction that deaths were not caused directly by the then-unidentified influenza virus, but rather resulted from severe secondary pneumonia caused by various bacteria.

That is, due to dirty masks.

2. HCQ

David Boulware is a shill.

The science gents?

https://c19hcq.com/

C'mon David and Baggers, highlight the half arsed science?

And guess what, with an anti viral, yes, won't work if the storm has already hit. No one denies that.

The infamous UK 'Recovery trial?

It dosed the subjects 2400mg in the first 24 hours. That is a near lethal dosage.

Designed to fail.

3. Ivermectin

Unlike HCQ, Ivermectin appears to have some (very good) outcome in folk post hospitalisation.

Both drugs are cheap, readily available in large volume and have a remarkable safety profile over decades.

https://bird-group.org/health-professionals-resources/

and

https://c19ivermectin.com/

And there are numerous other EARLY treatments too.

Doctors have suggested more than half of the COVID attributed deaths could have been avoided with early treatment.

Love the Group think though folks.

Sadly, it's not me in denial.

Quote
As is my bent, I am fascinated by 'deniers' and the psychology of such folks and why they're drawn, somewhat compulsively, to such fringe and extremist views

Baggers, your condescension is an embarrassment.

I expected better from you.

But when one forms their views from the (largely) compromised MSM and the back of cereal packets, well.....


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 04, 2021, 10:18:50 am
And here's some more fringe science from fringe groups on masks.

https://aapsonline.org/mask-facts/

Or you could even read the gold standard Danish RCT study.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33205991/

With additional commentary here:

https://swprs.org/danish-mask-study-no-benefit/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 04, 2021, 10:26:20 am
Oh, and Sweden?

So, yes, there are very clearly alternatives to lockdowns and mask mandates....

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/excess-mortality-across-countries-in-2020/?s=09

https://www.aier.org/article/sweden-despite-variants-no-lockdowns-no-daily-covid-deaths/

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 04, 2021, 10:48:48 am
That's the way to do it! New York City is introducing a requirement that anyone working at or seeking to enter restaurants or other indoor entertainment or gyms must show proof of vaccination. Everyone is happy. After all, anyone who is worried about chips being slipped into the vaccine don't have to take it and they don't have to mix any longer with those cyborgs who've been duped.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 04, 2021, 11:03:42 am
Oh, and Sweden?

So, yes, there are very clearly alternatives to lockdowns and mask mandates....

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/excess-mortality-across-countries-in-2020/?s=09

https://www.aier.org/article/sweden-despite-variants-no-lockdowns-no-daily-covid-deaths/
Sweden did some interesting things that left in on the brink of political chaos, when the news about it's failing strategy got bad, it stopped reporting COVID case figures, and tried to rewrite the rules about what is a COVID death to make the numbers look better. The Swedish public are furious, it looks like they will turf out the government.

The Swedish government's action has made it look like a totalitarian state, which is somewhat ironic for it to be offered up as a beacon of hope towards COVID freedom!

The second link is an outright fabrication, Sweden gets more than 1200 deaths per Million of population. So far they have had more than 14,000 die. That was just up until the point they stopped reporting, now open source estimates from NGOs are estimating the death rate has risen beyond 1600 per Million of population. Australia has about 36 deaths per Million. If we used Sweden's results to model a similar response in Australia, Australia would already have more than 38,000 COVID deaths, almost as much as all Australian deaths in the great wars!

In Sweden the bad numbers have been rising not falling! :o

Of course they will eventually get to a peak, via one way or the other, but at what cost.

It turns out that the Herd Immunity strategy is an economic disaster as well, they have a small highly skilled population that is being massively disrupted by the symptoms of Long COVID. So far it's economy has dropped -3.5%, not the -1.5% often reported which is actually a 2022 forecast from the Swedish Central bank, not a real number. Now the sceptics will say -3.5% is nothing, but that is relative to Sweden's EU neighbours which have faired much better after taking a more conventional approach, some have even experienced some 2021 growth! ;)

On COVID-19 cases relative to it's neighbours, countries like Denmark, Finland and Norway, it turns out Sweden is 500% worse off in most key infection and case rates.

Finally, the quarterly COVID-19 fatality rate for Sweden is 0.5% per case, worse than the world average of about 0.3% per case. This is despite Sweden being a well resourced technologically advanced country, it should be doing better than most not worse. So not only do they have more cases, they are below par at treating them!

No wonder the Swedish public is furious!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 04, 2021, 11:14:46 am
"How dare you" !!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 04, 2021, 11:32:26 am
Back in the real world, Covid's just doing what it does. Sydney reports 233 cases and unfortunately a man in his 20s just died. He reached day 13, telling nurses (he wasn't in hospital) that he was just a little fatigued. Then his condition deteriorated rapidly.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 04, 2021, 11:45:03 am
Back in the real world, Covid's just doing what it does. Sydney reports 233 cases and unfortunately a man in his 20s just died. He reached day 13, telling nurses (he wasn't in hospital) that he was just a little fatigued. Then his condition deteriorated rapidly.
I'm hoping like hell Sydney buck the trend, but I fear this could well be the lead in for the lag that exists between infection and the final outcome.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 04, 2021, 11:46:13 am
Sweden did some interesting things that left in on the brink of political chaos, when the news about it's failing strategy got bad, it stopped reporting COVID case figures, and tried to rewrite the rules about what is a COVID death to make the numbers look better. The Swedish public are furious, it looks like they will turf out the government.

The Swedish government's action has made it look like a totalitarian state, which is somewhat ironic for it to be offered up as a beacon of hope towards COVID freedom!

The second link is an outright fabrication, Sweden gets more than 1200 deaths per Million of population. So far they have had more than 14,000 die. That was just up until the point they stopped reporting, now open source estimates from NGOs are estimating the death rate has risen beyond 1600 per Million of population. Australia has about 36 deaths per Million.

In Sweden the bad numbers have been rising not falling! :o

Of course they will eventually get to a peak, via one way or the other, but at what cost.

It turns out that the Herd Immunity strategy is an economic disaster as well, they have a small highly skilled population that is being massively disrupted by the symptoms of Long COVID. So far it's economy has dropped -3.5%, not the -1.5% often reported which is actually a 2022 forecast from the Swedish Central bank, not a real number. Now the sceptics will say -3.5% is nothing, but that is relative to Sweden's EU neighbours which have faired much better after taking a more conventional approach, some have even experienced some 2021 growth! ;)

On COVID-19 cases relative to it's neighbours, countries like Denmark, Finland and Norway, it turns out Sweden is 500% worse off in most key infection and case rates.

Finally, the quarterly COVID-19 fatality rate for Sweden is 0.5% per case, worse than the world average of about 0.3% per case. This is despite Sweden being a well resourced technologically advanced country, it should be doing better than most not worse.

No wonder the Swedish public is furious!

I laughed.

So you ignore entirely the excess death numbers. Terrific.

You claim Sweden's death rate is rising now?

Weird. How can an 'average ' rate increase is recent numbers are declining. Confabulation, my guess.

My Swedish mates tell me it barely rates a mention over there these days....

Comparing Sweden to here is straw man fallacy stuff.

Anyway, the data doesn't lie, despite your limp protestations.

Herd immunity - your comments suggests you don't understand the concept.

Are you slipping out of your depth?

Comparing to the other Nordic countries and not Euro countries in general, again, straw man spin.

If you'd looked at excess deaths in the years up to 2020, you'd see Sweden had remarkably lower than average deaths for two consecutive years....there was a lot of 'dry tinder' unfortunately.

#36 globally, #24 in Europe....see attached.

LP, I do love the fact you also just put up 'opinion' without any substance/supporting data other than it supports your narrative.

Are you a science or a marketing guy? Perhaps you're one of Dopey's 100 strong PR team?

For others, who are keen to learn more about the hyped Delta bug...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRQ8bneI7vs&t=2s
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 04, 2021, 11:51:38 am
I laughed.
People often laugh when they a wrong or confused, it's an autonomic nervous response, like going red in the face when embarrassed! ;D

Some more official Sweden figures; (uncoloured and unadulterated.)

As of August 3rd, 14,657 people have been confirmed as having died after testing positive for the coronavirus in Sweden (adjusted down from 14,655 on July 30th). Sweden normally updates its data Tuesday-Friday at 2pm, but the country’s database for registering infectious diseases was closed for some days due to security reasons, which means updates on the data have been irregular.
( It's all good news! )  ::)

Since the start of the outbreak, 7,619 coronavirus patients have been in intensive care as of August 3rd (up from 7,608 on July 30th). The numbers also include those who die after receiving intensive care and patients who have recovered and been discharged.

There have been 1,101,900 confirmed cases of the coronavirus according to data reported on August 3rd (up from 1,100,040 on July 30th).
 
( ~500 per day! )

6,433,921 people had been given at least one dose of a vaccine against the coronavirus as of August 3rd, and 4,266,100 had been given two doses. This means 52.1 percent of the Swedish adult population has now had two doses.
( For a country that is apparently promoting herd immunity through natural infection it is sure going like the clappers now with vaccinations! )

Everyone in Sweden is urged to stay at home and get a coronavirus test if they are at all sick (even a mild cough or sore throat), practice social distancing, work from home if possible, and socialise with as few people as possible.
( Aren't they going for natural herd immunity? ) Maybe not! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 04, 2021, 11:52:55 am
People often laugh when they a wrong or confused, it's an autonomic nervous response, like going red in the face when embarrassed! ;D

Ad hominem attack is the domain of fools or the ignorant.

Which are you?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 04, 2021, 11:59:11 am
"How dare you" !!!
@capcom  You were right!

( @Baggers - Another Darth Vader moment! )
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 04, 2021, 11:59:23 am
Ad hominem attack is the domain of fools or the ignorant.

Which are you?
Says the king of the ad hominem attack.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on August 04, 2021, 02:14:43 pm
The world passed 200 million notified cases of COVID-19 yesterday along with 4,258,000 deaths.  That gives a CFR of about 2.13% but some folk still reckon it's no worse than seasonal flu.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 04, 2021, 02:22:42 pm
People often laugh when they a wrong or confused, it's an autonomic nervous response, like going red in the face when embarrassed! ;D

Some more official Sweden figures; (uncoloured and unadulterated.)

As of August 3rd, 14,657 people have been confirmed as having died after testing positive for the coronavirus in Sweden (adjusted down from 14,655 on July 30th). Sweden normally updates its data Tuesday-Friday at 2pm, but the country’s database for registering infectious diseases was closed for some days due to security reasons, which means updates on the data have been irregular.
( It's all good news! )  ::)

Since the start of the outbreak, 7,619 coronavirus patients have been in intensive care as of August 3rd (up from 7,608 on July 30th). The numbers also include those who die after receiving intensive care and patients who have recovered and been discharged.

There have been 1,101,900 confirmed cases of the coronavirus according to data reported on August 3rd (up from 1,100,040 on July 30th).
 
( ~500 per day! )

6,433,921 people had been given at least one dose of a vaccine against the coronavirus as of August 3rd, and 4,266,100 had been given two doses. This means 52.1 percent of the Swedish adult population has now had two doses.
( For a country that is apparently promoting herd immunity through natural infection it is sure going like the clappers now with vaccinations! )

Everyone in Sweden is urged to stay at home and get a coronavirus test if they are at all sick (even a mild cough or sore throat), practice social distancing, work from home if possible, and socialise with as few people as possible.
( Aren't they going for natural herd immunity? ) Maybe not! :o

A PCR 'confirmed' positive
Says the king of the ad hominem attack.

You're a laugh Mav.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on August 04, 2021, 02:36:59 pm
A paragraph from an interesting, if disturbing, commentary on Sweden's COVID failure from a couple of Swedes in The Lancet:

Quote
While other countries are closing down in response to this new surge in cases, Sweden is opening up—high schools were opened on April 1, 2021. To continue on the same trajectory in the face of current trends, without timely action by agency and government leadership, raises concerns about governance and accountability, and ultimately about fundamental ethics and values.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00885-0/fulltext

The letter was published a while back so the figures are lower than they are now. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 04, 2021, 02:38:55 pm
Sweden have today announced it expects the public will need a 3rd dose of vaccine and is making provisions accordingly, that seems to be a lot of expensive trouble to go to for a country going for herd immunity!

As for COVID issues, hardly talked about over there in Sweden apparently, except when related to issues discussed on the front pages of every newspaper or news related website!
Quote
- Sweden’s parliament has backed a no-confidence vote in the centre-left prime minister, Stefan Löfven, making him the first premier to be ousted by opposition MPs in the country’s history and giving him a week to resign or call snap elections.

 - Swedish PM Stefan Löfven resigns after losing confidence vote

 - Löfven urges Sweden’s parliament to try to form new government instead of holding early general election

My Swedish mates tell me it barely rates a mention over there these days....
Who needs enemies with friends like that! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 04, 2021, 03:22:12 pm
As ABBA would say S.O.S
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 04, 2021, 03:22:58 pm
Sweden have today announced it expects the public will need a 3rd dose of vaccine and is making provisions accordingly, that seems to be a lot of expensive trouble to go to for a country going for herd immunity!

As for COVID issues, hardly talked about over there in Sweden apparently, except when related to issues discussed on the front pages of every newspaper or news related website! Who needs enemies with friends like that! :o

You're conflating LP.

Not even  a nice try.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 04, 2021, 03:58:22 pm

Quote
Quote from: flyboy77 on Today at 11:46:13 AM

My Swedish mates tell me it barely rates a mention over there these days....

Who needs enemies with friends like that! :o

No, they're just not bed wetters.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 04, 2021, 04:01:52 pm
No, they're just not bed wetters.


I gotta hand it to you FB, you're a tenacious fella. If our Blueboys showed your spirit we wouldn't lose a game.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 04, 2021, 04:17:50 pm

Baggers, your condescension is an embarrassment. You missed the point.

I expected better from you. Don't. Your expectations of me are of very little consequence or interest.

But when one forms their views from the (largely) compromised MSM and the back of cereal packets, well..... Wrong, but hey, if shallow assumption is your strategy to invalidate another's opinion... well, what does that say about you?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 04, 2021, 04:32:25 pm

1. The Spanish Flu

They did not lock down, they quarantined the sick.

Healthy people were not.


You failed to acknowledge the reality that businesses were closed and public gathering heavily curtailed etc. Economic impact. Mental health impact. Unemployment impact. Mm, certain similarities to a lockdown, most folks would reasonably interpret.

Masks were mandatory and fines issued for non-compliers. Also sounds somewhat similar to what we experience currently with... gulp... lockdowns.

And state borders were closed...

Pretty sure the folks in Sydney in 1919 would say it felt like a 'lockdown'... and with good reason.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 04, 2021, 04:37:17 pm
Comparing to the other Nordic countries and not Euro countries in general, again, straw man spin.
Hmm, I think Sweden is the one in the middle, surrounded by Denmark, Norway and Finland?

(https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/images/destination-map-sweden.png)

Didn't your Swedish mates tell you where they live, ................ are they trying to avoid you? :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 04, 2021, 04:42:59 pm
As ABBA would say S.O.S

... --- ...  ;D  (Morse code for SOS... couldn't help myself, still deeply ingrained).

--. ---   -... -.-- ..- . ...  (any Morse buffs?)

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 04, 2021, 04:43:17 pm
You're conflating LP.
Yes, I often associate Politicians being ousted after a no confidence vote with the lead stories in the newspapers discussing the reversal of their failed COVID policies.

How silly of me!  :-[
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on August 05, 2021, 01:01:13 am
I’ve tried to keep this brief, but it is a little lengthy (and possibly preachy, sorry) - apologies and thanks to those who take the time to read it.

The thread now has nothing to do with Covid, but instead who is right, wrong, which information is right or wrong with a bit of name calling thrown in.

This is my Covid Story.

The first person that I knew that got Covid was in about April 2020 - my cricket captain, aged late 40s.  He is an asthmatic.  He was in hospital for several weeks.  Got sent home.  Relapsed and was a lot closer to death than most of us have been – he won’t tell us exactly how serious it was, but we know it wasn’t good.  He is still suffering, with his asthma being worse, and breathing is more difficult.  I know of a couple of others who didn’t really have many symptoms (20-30 year olds).

The other local story from its early days was from a colleague.  His mate and wife both caught Covid.  The mate recovered, yet the wife had still no sense of taste 6 months later.  I haven’t had any recent info as to whether it has been recovered.

The ‘flu pretty much affects people the same way, with the same symptoms.  Covid doesn’t.  There are heaps of different symptoms and reactions.

One of my clients works with some of the poorest people in the world.  Countries such as Myanmar, DRC (Republic of Congo), Laos, Cambodia, Uganda, Zimbabwe, Indonesia, Thailand, India – there are a few more.  Across the countries, there are about 55 project partners.

Nearly every day we get updates – about how they almost have sell the very little they have as someone in the family needs oxygen, so can’t go to a public hospital, how they have even less money, as they can’t do the day-to-day work which gives them money for food that day, about how the people trafficking trade is increasing, as people are more desperate for money, so they sell their children, how some of the project partners are risking their lives in running food programs in countries that are beset with war/fighting/rebels, how the close acquaintances, husbands, wives are dying/have died from Covid, how a test costs US$50 – a fortune for some of these people, so they aren’t done.

We have to keep working with these people – we obviously can’t visit them.  We need to be accountable to donors – so we ask the partners for their reports on the projects.  ‘Please find the report attached, with photos’.  Asked the partner for the attachment – sorry I forgot.  I was taking one of our workers to hospital to get oxygen as they are suffering badly – and we want them to send us the report?

In one region, there is escalated fighting between factions, natural disasters, Covid is rife and there are severe food shortages.  People aren’t allowed out of their houses, yet they have no money saved to help them live.  Their landlords kick them out because they can’t pay rent, so they have to go to the streets.

The gains in reducing poverty over the last decade and more have essentially been wiped out.  This is going take a long time to recover from.

We are fortunate and privileged in Australia – most of us don’t appreciate how much, or how wealthy we are.

Yes, we have governments and politicians that we don’t agree with.  They make decisions that we don’t understand – but we voted for them and we aren’t willing to do their job.  It is about time we, as a country grew up, reduced our sense of entitlement and outrage, stopped the ‘extreme right and left’ shouting matches and looked after each other and our communities.

How do we do this for Covid?  Be ‘sheeple’ and proud of it.  Wear a mask.  Is it inconvenient – yes.  Do they work - yes and no.  Where they don’t, it’s an inconvenience, where they do, we are helping to reduce people catch it.  Get a vaccination (or two).  Risks and side effects are not worse than other vaccinations.  If we don’t vaccinate, we’ll be living in this crazy world for evermore.  Our CHOs and politicians are telling us this is the measuring stick to end the yo-yo of restrictions that we have. 

These steps won’t eradicate Covid, but they will help us be able to get back to a life that is better than many are living right now.
It is not about each of us as individuals, it is about us as partners, families, housemates, neighbours and communities.  The only way out is to work together to achieve the result.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 05, 2021, 07:17:22 am
I’ve tried to keep this brief, but it is a little lengthy (and possibly preachy, sorry) - apologies and thanks to those who take the time to read it.

The thread now has nothing to do with Covid, but instead who is right, wrong, which information is right or wrong with a bit of name calling thrown in.

This is my Covid Story.

The first person that I knew that got Covid was in about April 2020 - my cricket captain, aged late 40s.  He is an asthmatic.  He was in hospital for several weeks.  Got sent home.  Relapsed and was a lot closer to death than most of us have been – he won’t tell us exactly how serious it was, but we know it wasn’t good.  He is still suffering, with his asthma being worse, and breathing is more difficult.  I know of a couple of others who didn’t really have many symptoms (20-30 year olds).

The other local story from its early days was from a colleague.  His mate and wife both caught Covid.  The mate recovered, yet the wife had still no sense of taste 6 months later.  I haven’t had any recent info as to whether it has been recovered.

The ‘flu pretty much affects people the same way, with the same symptoms.  Covid doesn’t.  There are heaps of different symptoms and reactions.

One of my clients works with some of the poorest people in the world.  Countries such as Myanmar, DRC (Republic of Congo), Laos, Cambodia, Uganda, Zimbabwe, Indonesia, Thailand, India – there are a few more.  Across the countries, there are about 55 project partners.

Nearly every day we get updates – about how they almost have sell the very little they have as someone in the family needs oxygen, so can’t go to a public hospital, how they have even less money, as they can’t do the day-to-day work which gives them money for food that day, about how the people trafficking trade is increasing, as people are more desperate for money, so they sell their children, how some of the project partners are risking their lives in running food programs in countries that are beset with war/fighting/rebels, how the close acquaintances, husbands, wives are dying/have died from Covid, how a test costs US$50 – a fortune for some of these people, so they aren’t done.

We have to keep working with these people – we obviously can’t visit them.  We need to be accountable to donors – so we ask the partners for their reports on the projects.  ‘Please find the report attached, with photos’.  Asked the partner for the attachment – sorry I forgot.  I was taking one of our workers to hospital to get oxygen as they are suffering badly – and we want them to send us the report?

In one region, there is escalated fighting between factions, natural disasters, Covid is rife and there are severe food shortages.  People aren’t allowed out of their houses, yet they have no money saved to help them live.  Their landlords kick them out because they can’t pay rent, so they have to go to the streets.

The gains in reducing poverty over the last decade and more have essentially been wiped out.  This is going take a long time to recover from.

We are fortunate and privileged in Australia – most of us don’t appreciate how much, or how wealthy we are.

Yes, we have governments and politicians that we don’t agree with.  They make decisions that we don’t understand – but we voted for them and we aren’t willing to do their job.  It is about time we, as a country grew up, reduced our sense of entitlement and outrage, stopped the ‘extreme right and left’ shouting matches and looked after each other and our communities.

How do we do this for Covid?  Be ‘sheeple’ and proud of it.  Wear a mask.  Is it inconvenient – yes.  Do they work - yes and no.  Where they don’t, it’s an inconvenience, where they do, we are helping to reduce people catch it.  Get a vaccination (or two).  Risks and side effects are not worse than other vaccinations.  If we don’t vaccinate, we’ll be living in this crazy world for evermore.  Our CHOs and politicians are telling us this is the measuring stick to end the yo-yo of restrictions that we have. 

These steps won’t eradicate Covid, but they will help us be able to get back to a life that is better than many are living right now.
It is not about each of us as individuals, it is about us as partners, families, housemates, neighbours and communities.  The only way out is to work together to achieve the result.

Thanks for sharing dodge, well said, perspective is always the leveller.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 05, 2021, 09:36:38 am
Yes, I often associate Politicians being ousted after a no confidence vote with the lead stories in the newspapers discussing the reversal of their failed COVID policies.

How silly of me!  :-[

Meanwhile, on the ground in Sweden, daily deaths from (with +PCR test) or with CV19 have averaged less than 1 (yes, one) per day for at least a month.

As we all know (by now) that PCR tests do not determine, or diagnose, illness.

Sure sniffs of herd immunity to me.

Oh and you also failed to mentioned, the minority party likely to lead is far right.

Think BNF.

Funny, how you omit, when likely you know full well, the inconvenient truths.

Nothing to do with the virus. Try disdain for the long standing multi-culturist policies!

(note, checking a few web sites seldom beats talking to people on the ground)

The only serious metric of Sweden's success or failure is their excess death count. Both against their own past and other Euro/global nations. noting, their crisis was a nursing home crisis too.

If you need a hand interpreting the data, happy to assist.

But carry on.





Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 05, 2021, 09:42:23 am
I’ve tried to keep this brief, but it is a little lengthy (and possibly preachy, sorry) - apologies and thanks to those who take the time to read it.

The thread now has nothing to do with Covid, but instead who is right, wrong, which information is right or wrong with a bit of name calling thrown in.

This is my Covid Story.

The first person that I knew that got Covid was in about April 2020 - my cricket captain, aged late 40s.  He is an asthmatic.  He was in hospital for several weeks.  Got sent home.  Relapsed and was a lot closer to death than most of us have been – he won’t tell us exactly how serious it was, but we know it wasn’t good.  He is still suffering, with his asthma being worse, and breathing is more difficult.  I know of a couple of others who didn’t really have many symptoms (20-30 year olds).

The other local story from its early days was from a colleague.  His mate and wife both caught Covid.  The mate recovered, yet the wife had still no sense of taste 6 months later.  I haven’t had any recent info as to whether it has been recovered.

The ‘flu pretty much affects people the same way, with the same symptoms.  Covid doesn’t.  There are heaps of different symptoms and reactions.

One of my clients works with some of the poorest people in the world.  Countries such as Myanmar, DRC (Republic of Congo), Laos, Cambodia, Uganda, Zimbabwe, Indonesia, Thailand, India – there are a few more.  Across the countries, there are about 55 project partners.

Nearly every day we get updates – about how they almost have sell the very little they have as someone in the family needs oxygen, so can’t go to a public hospital, how they have even less money, as they can’t do the day-to-day work which gives them money for food that day, about how the people trafficking trade is increasing, as people are more desperate for money, so they sell their children, how some of the project partners are risking their lives in running food programs in countries that are beset with war/fighting/rebels, how the close acquaintances, husbands, wives are dying/have died from Covid, how a test costs US$50 – a fortune for some of these people, so they aren’t done.

We have to keep working with these people – we obviously can’t visit them.  We need to be accountable to donors – so we ask the partners for their reports on the projects.  ‘Please find the report attached, with photos’.  Asked the partner for the attachment – sorry I forgot.  I was taking one of our workers to hospital to get oxygen as they are suffering badly – and we want them to send us the report?

In one region, there is escalated fighting between factions, natural disasters, Covid is rife and there are severe food shortages.  People aren’t allowed out of their houses, yet they have no money saved to help them live.  Their landlords kick them out because they can’t pay rent, so they have to go to the streets.

The gains in reducing poverty over the last decade and more have essentially been wiped out.  This is going take a long time to recover from.

We are fortunate and privileged in Australia – most of us don’t appreciate how much, or how wealthy we are.

Yes, we have governments and politicians that we don’t agree with.  They make decisions that we don’t understand – but we voted for them and we aren’t willing to do their job.  It is about time we, as a country grew up, reduced our sense of entitlement and outrage, stopped the ‘extreme right and left’ shouting matches and looked after each other and our communities.

How do we do this for Covid?  Be ‘sheeple’ and proud of it.  Wear a mask.  Is it inconvenient – yes.  Do they work - yes and no.  Where they don’t, it’s an inconvenience, where they do, we are helping to reduce people catch it.  Get a vaccination (or two).  Risks and side effects are not worse than other vaccinations.  If we don’t vaccinate, we’ll be living in this crazy world for evermore.  Our CHOs and politicians are telling us this is the measuring stick to end the yo-yo of restrictions that we have. 

These steps won’t eradicate Covid, but they will help us be able to get back to a life that is better than many are living right now.
It is not about each of us as individuals, it is about us as partners, families, housemates, neighbours and communities.  The only way out is to work together to achieve the result.


So Dodge, sorry about your cricket buddy.

Straight up question, you don't believe his outcome would have been better, much better, if he had had the option of access to an Ivermectin protocol early in his illness?

As for the 3rd world nations, no argument, but is the long standing blight of TB (and even poor sanitation) any less concerning?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 05, 2021, 10:07:34 am
I’ve tried to keep this brief, but it is a little lengthy (and possibly preachy, sorry) - apologies and thanks to those who take the time to read it.

The thread now has nothing to do with Covid, but instead who is right, wrong, which information is right or wrong with a bit of name calling thrown in.

This is my Covid Story.

The first person that I knew that got Covid was in about April 2020 - my cricket captain, aged late 40s.  He is an asthmatic.  He was in hospital for several weeks.  Got sent home.  Relapsed and was a lot closer to death than most of us have been – he won’t tell us exactly how serious it was, but we know it wasn’t good.  He is still suffering, with his asthma being worse, and breathing is more difficult.  I know of a couple of others who didn’t really have many symptoms (20-30 year olds).

The other local story from its early days was from a colleague.  His mate and wife both caught Covid.  The mate recovered, yet the wife had still no sense of taste 6 months later.  I haven’t had any recent info as to whether it has been recovered.

The ‘flu pretty much affects people the same way, with the same symptoms.  Covid doesn’t.  There are heaps of different symptoms and reactions.

One of my clients works with some of the poorest people in the world.  Countries such as Myanmar, DRC (Republic of Congo), Laos, Cambodia, Uganda, Zimbabwe, Indonesia, Thailand, India – there are a few more.  Across the countries, there are about 55 project partners.

Nearly every day we get updates – about how they almost have sell the very little they have as someone in the family needs oxygen, so can’t go to a public hospital, how they have even less money, as they can’t do the day-to-day work which gives them money for food that day, about how the people trafficking trade is increasing, as people are more desperate for money, so they sell their children, how some of the project partners are risking their lives in running food programs in countries that are beset with war/fighting/rebels, how the close acquaintances, husbands, wives are dying/have died from Covid, how a test costs US$50 – a fortune for some of these people, so they aren’t done.

We have to keep working with these people – we obviously can’t visit them.  We need to be accountable to donors – so we ask the partners for their reports on the projects.  ‘Please find the report attached, with photos’.  Asked the partner for the attachment – sorry I forgot.  I was taking one of our workers to hospital to get oxygen as they are suffering badly – and we want them to send us the report?

In one region, there is escalated fighting between factions, natural disasters, Covid is rife and there are severe food shortages.  People aren’t allowed out of their houses, yet they have no money saved to help them live.  Their landlords kick them out because they can’t pay rent, so they have to go to the streets.

The gains in reducing poverty over the last decade and more have essentially been wiped out.  This is going take a long time to recover from.

We are fortunate and privileged in Australia – most of us don’t appreciate how much, or how wealthy we are.

Yes, we have governments and politicians that we don’t agree with.  They make decisions that we don’t understand – but we voted for them and we aren’t willing to do their job.  It is about time we, as a country grew up, reduced our sense of entitlement and outrage, stopped the ‘extreme right and left’ shouting matches and looked after each other and our communities.

How do we do this for Covid?  Be ‘sheeple’ and proud of it.  Wear a mask.  Is it inconvenient – yes.  Do they work - yes and no.  Where they don’t, it’s an inconvenience, where they do, we are helping to reduce people catch it.  Get a vaccination (or two).  Risks and side effects are not worse than other vaccinations.  If we don’t vaccinate, we’ll be living in this crazy world for evermore.  Our CHOs and politicians are telling us this is the measuring stick to end the yo-yo of restrictions that we have. 

These steps won’t eradicate Covid, but they will help us be able to get back to a life that is better than many are living right now.
It is not about each of us as individuals, it is about us as partners, families, housemates, neighbours and communities.  The only way out is to work together to achieve the result.


Thank you, Dodge.

Thank you for carving through our petty squabbles, graphs and stats, arguments, put-downs and so on, to get to the core, the very humanity of this pandemic. I feel guilty that I allowed myself to be drawn into the 'games'. Considering my profession, I should have known better.

So beautifully yet simply you reminded us all of what this is REALLY all about.

I read your post a number of times, tears in eyes. Initially, tears of guilt for my part in the games, then tears for the suffering of so many.

As GTC so perfectly commented, you brought perspective into sharp focus, slicing through intellectual considerations to the very real pain and suffering of so many - the humanity and the cruel reality.

There was nothing preachy in your deeply valuable and courageous contribution to this conversation. There is something quite inspirational about such honesty. Thank you.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on August 05, 2021, 10:22:10 am
Fly, what I believe regarding ivermectin is irrelevant.  I'm an accountant - LHS=RHS with some interpretations thrown in, not immuniologist or health/disease expert.  I am not going into details of treatment, causes who is doing things better, trying to interpret stats that experts have already interpreted for something I don't understand.

Regards to TB (and plenty of other illnesses/viruses/diseases and issues), simplistically, there has been a lot of progress in educating communities, getting clean water systems to remote areas, economic empowerment and many other initiatives.  The effect that Covid has had on these communities in such a short time removes a lot of the gains, as people are in strict survival mode and the health systems can't cope.  At this client, we know the circumstances of the people that we are working in and know that life is tough - really tough.  This is now on a different level.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 05, 2021, 11:10:47 am
... and NSW has another bad day :(  262 new cases / 5 deaths.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 05, 2021, 11:21:02 am
Some good news ...

The CDC had inferred from the Cape Cod outbreak that breakthrough cases could transmit the Delta virus as much as infected unvaccinated people. This was apparently based on the observation that breakthrough cases had big viral loads in their noses and upper respiratory tracts. But apparently Israeli researches have found that, despite the big viral loads, breakthrough cases aren't very infectious: only 10% infect 1 person. 

That would strengthen the argument that vaccination helps to reduce the spread of Covid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 05, 2021, 11:40:56 am
I’ve tried to keep this brief, but it is a little lengthy (and possibly preachy, sorry) - apologies and thanks to those who take the time to read it.
No need to apologise, for what it is worth I have associates and family in Indonesia and Malaysia experiencing much the same as you have described.

Trump like Western perspectives, FB, Instagram and the various forms of anti-vaxx movement are largely an irrelevant distraction from what is real. There is no magic bullet for these locations, they can barely afford to use those cheapest of vaccine solutions, let alone waste money on ineffective transient snake oil that lines some investors pocket!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 05, 2021, 11:50:38 am
Straight up question, you don't believe his outcome would have been better, much better, if he had had the option of access to an Ivermectin protocol early in his illness?
FFS, don't you get it.

Not only is treatment and possible cure far more expensive than the vaccine, for the ever so slight possible solution it delivers, to be safely administered free of serious side-effects it first has to be diagnosed, administered and monitored by doctors in clinics and hospitals to safely achieve what little benefit they may offer if any at all! That assumes none of the deleterious side-effects of widespread use of a strong drug like Ivermectin, which are more common than the side-effects of the vaccines.

That is not even achievable, available or affordable for the Australian Outback, let alone poor individuals in 3rd world countries like @dodge‍ lists. As for cheap, it's only cheap by Western standards because something like our PBS subsidies here in Oz will cover more than 80 or 90% of it's cost! Cheap is also relative, even if they could get it for AUD$20 a tablet for many residents in those locations that is more than a typical months wage per tablet, and a basic course is four tablets over about a month! Further, I'm ignoring the black market and the counterfeit or fake stuff that would just rip them off in those regions anyway, which are so numerous they probably far outnumber the genuine stuff!

Further in the context of the @dodge post your TB comment is an outright insult!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 05, 2021, 11:51:44 am
... and NSW has another bad day :(  262 new cases / 5 deaths.
Talking about a 3 day snap lockdown in Vic
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 05, 2021, 12:16:14 pm
Talking about a 3 day snap lockdown in Vic

That would not surprise me at all.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 05, 2021, 12:24:37 pm
Talking about a 3 day snap lockdown in Vic

If it hits, it will hit tomorrow night midnight.

I said it to the MRS this morning.

One case late yesterday means, that they are testing a whole school today, and notifying close contacts to get tested today.  Most of those results wont come through until tomorrow, so they wont lock it down until earliest tomorrow night midnight, and it will be more to do with where the current positive has been whilst infectious.

Basically they half know already, but hopefully this one is localised and over before it begins like the one we did in Feb that started and ended at 3 days.

Happy either way, life isnt that exciting anyway.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 05, 2021, 12:28:34 pm
Talking about a 3 day snap lockdown in Vic

That would be a very dangerous political gamble.  This isn't a Federation, more like seven countries the way some of these imbecile premiers have been acting.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 05, 2021, 12:30:57 pm
It will be from tonight possibly as early as 6pm to avoid packed bars and restaurants.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 05, 2021, 12:33:37 pm
It will be from tonight possibly as early as 6pm to avoid packed bars and restaurants.
Probably too late for tonight.

Still you never know. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 05, 2021, 01:10:46 pm
Its time to start taking the proverbial out of everything and everyone to entertain ourselves about this.

Laughter being the best form of medicine or what not.

Found this, thought it was generally hilarious.  Not everyones cup of tea, but lets not worry too much.  For anyone who isnt aware, Milo Kerrigan is a parody of an ex champion boxer off Full Frontal.  I know it doesnt pass todays standards as this is not something to poke fun at so if its not your thing, just keep scrolling. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ynU1qhQ4iU
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 05, 2021, 01:17:18 pm
Its time to start taking the proverbial out of everything and everyone to entertain ourselves about this.

Laughter being the best form of medicine or what not.

Found this, thought it was generally hilarious.  Not everyones cup of tea, but lets not worry too much.  For anyone who isnt aware, Milo Kerrigan is a parody of an ex champion boxer off Full Frontal.  I know it doesnt pass todays standards as this is not something to poke fun at so if its not your thing, just keep scrolling. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ynU1qhQ4iU


 :))  :))  :))  :))  :))  thank you, 3 Leos. Good belly laugh here. Ah, Milo Kerrigan... classic. We never miss Mad As Hell... Shaun Micallef - love him.

Milo for Prime Minister! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 05, 2021, 04:01:47 pm


I've put plenty of data up, you guys (some of you) simply ignore it.

No comment on Sweden's excess deaths in 2020 vis a vis other years or against other nations?

Nah, it disrupts your narrative so you avoid it.....

Masks. Outside hospital settings an abject waste of time. All the science says that. Both pre and post COVID.

No RCT study in over 40 years has come to any other conclusion.

Though undoubtedly good for a bit of virtue signalling.





Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 05, 2021, 04:18:24 pm
Masks. Outside hospital settings an abject waste of time. All the science says that. Both pre and post COVID.

No RCT study in over 40 years has come to any other conclusion.
In just a few seconds using Google Scholar I found more than 50 RCTs for mask use, including mask use in homes and public, that show good mask efficacy going back to and including historical documents from 1910.

Here is even a conclusion from one completed in Australia back in 2008 after SARS that covers both SARS and Influenza.
Quote
Overall, evidence from RCTs and observational studies is informative, but not compelling on its own. Both the Australian influenza RCT and the Beijing households observational trial found around 80% efficacy among compliant subjects, and the one SARS household study of sufficient power found 70% efficacy for protecting the wearer. However, we do not know whether the results from influenza or SARS will correspond to results for SARS-CoV-2, and the single observational study of SARS-CoV-2 might not be replicated in other communities.

( C. R. MacIntyre et al., Randomized, Controlled clinical Trial of mask use in households to prevent respiratory virus transmission. Int. J. Infect. Dis. 12, e328 (2008). )
The big problem with mask efficacy seems to be the Norbits who refuse to wear them or refuse to wear them properly, string em high! ;)

Maybe the search engine Flyboy77 is using is shizen, something has to be wrong for him to have missed so many obvious RCTs! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 05, 2021, 04:24:36 pm
Lockdown 6.0
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 05, 2021, 04:25:38 pm
Didn’t the Burnett Institute publish a study giving much of the credit for controlling Covid outbreaks in Victoria to mask mandates?

Edit:
Quote
The mandating of masks during Melbourne’s COVID-19 second wave in July 2020 was the single-most important control measure and “turned the epidemic around”, new world-leading Burnet Institute research shows.

The study, published in the journal PLOS ONE, highlights the effectiveness and critical importance of masks as a key tool to prevent community spread of the highly infectious Delta variant in Australia and globally.

World-first study shows effectiveness of masks in preventing COVID transmission (https://www.burnet.edu.au/news/1473_world_first_study_shows_effectiveness_of_masks_in_preventing_covid_transmission), Burnet Institute.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 05, 2021, 04:39:46 pm
Lockdown 6.0

Can't wait for his next bullsh1t press conference.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 05, 2021, 05:00:41 pm
I've put plenty of data up, you guys (some of you) simply ignore it.

No comment on Sweden's excess deaths in 2020 vis a vis other years or against other nations?

Nah, it disrupts your narrative so you avoid it.....

Masks. Outside hospital settings an abject waste of time. All the science says that. Both pre and post COVID.

No RCT study in over 40 years has come to any other conclusion.

Though undoubtedly good for a bit of virtue signalling.


I am more than happy to, respectfully, agree to disagree, and leave it at that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 05, 2021, 05:07:25 pm
Can't wait for his next bullsh1t press conference.  
Unfortunately, people have done the wrong thing...again...so here we are. Its not bullcrap, look at NSW.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 05, 2021, 05:15:43 pm
Time to bring in vaccine passports and drive vaccinations. And prepare the police to meet any anti-lockdown protestors vigorously with mass arrests. I’m sick and tired of them treating themselves as if they have a veto over health measures that the majority want.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 05, 2021, 05:21:05 pm
She's not getting off lightly either GTC .... but I hate this effin' carousel with arbitrary decision making every five minutes.  Fark the lot of them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 05, 2021, 05:23:05 pm
She's not getting off lightly either GTC .... but I hate this effin' carousel with arbitrary decision making every five minutes.  Fark the lot of them.
I for one am confident (after 6 times) our health officials in Vic make the right calls when advising the Premier (unlike other states).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 05, 2021, 05:25:06 pm
Guys, you are better off accepting it is what it is.

Its highly liberating.

The lockdowns happen because they have a sufficient number of primary contacts of each positive case to warrant stopping further spread.

They are short, they are annoying, but the alternative isnt necessarily any better, and even if it starts off that way, it wont end that way.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 05, 2021, 05:26:56 pm
You'd bloody well hope so after 800 dead GTC !!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 05, 2021, 05:41:51 pm
Guys, you are better off accepting it is what it is.

Its highly liberating.

The lockdowns happen because they have a sufficient number of primary contacts of each positive case to warrant stopping further spread.

They are short, they are annoying, but the alternative isnt necessarily any better, and even if it starts off that way, it wont end that way.

👍
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 05, 2021, 05:47:20 pm
Guys, you are better off accepting it is what it is.

Its highly liberating.

The lockdowns happen because they have a sufficient number of primary contacts of each positive case to warrant stopping further spread.

They are short, they are annoying, but the alternative isnt necessarily any better, and even if it starts off that way, it wont end that way.
Thry, my favourite and most used saying is "it is what it is". I have accepted it since Lockdown 1.0 mate.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 05, 2021, 05:49:00 pm
You'd bloody well hope so after 800 dead GTC !!
To be fair, the Premier said today "we aren't going back to that" acknowledging the disastrous second wave, thats why they are doing what they are doing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 05, 2021, 06:43:47 pm
Time to bring in vaccine passports and drive vaccinations. And prepare the police to meet any anti-lockdown protestors vigorously with mass arrests. I’m sick and tired of them treating themselves as if they have a veto over health measures that the majority want.

Can't really do that until everyone can get the vaccine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 05, 2021, 06:45:06 pm
https://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw-woman-34-dies-of-rare-condition-after-astra-zeneca-vaccine-073155370.html?.tsrc=fp_deeplink
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 05, 2021, 07:50:58 pm
Apparently we only get federal funding if we do a 7 day lockdown.  I thought it was a bit odd when they announced it.    Was only expecting 3 days.  Surely they wouldn't do this would they?

Just to clarify Federal funded support for lockdown (as in the people who are forced home).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 05, 2021, 08:53:18 pm
Surely they wouldn't do this would they?

If all that is true, then yes he would.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 05, 2021, 11:51:51 pm
Given the last lockdown lasted about 10 days or so, there would have been little point making it a 3 or 5 day lockdown. If we’re done in 7 days, I’ll be ecstatic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on August 06, 2021, 09:18:38 am

As for the 3rd world nations, no argument, but is the long standing blight of TB (and even poor sanitation) any less concerning?

Fly, below is a small example of a recent water/sanitation project - the improvements to a village are incredible. 

Meet Mr Boundao...for the 1st time in his life, he has his own toilet! 🙌🏽  🚽  Till now, his family would defecate right outside the house, their animals would eat the faeces and bring disease to the family and village due to poor sanitation. His family was often sick due to the close contact between humans and animals. This problem was particularly bad during the rainy season. But they didn't know any different......
Our partners lived and worked alongside 4 villages in the area, providing proper sources of clean water, toilets for most households, hygiene education and training to maintain the systems. Mr Boundao now understands the importance of hygiene and good sanitation. He was able to build his own toilet close to his house, and thanks to the new water system in the village, he and his family have enough water to drink, wash themselves AND flush their toilet!
Mr Boundao is very thankful for the huge improvement the project has brought to his life and his village
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on August 06, 2021, 09:32:22 am
I must admit to feeling a bit shattered yesterday with the new lockdown.  While knowing how we are vs the third world, we live in our world and the attached circumstance - our emotions and concerns about our situation are still valid.

There is a huge cost to these lockdowns as has been pointed out before - mentally, socially and economically.  The cost to the hospitality industry of continually having to throw out stock that will go off, the effort and energy of having to cancel and re-schedule anything social and celebratory multiple times takes its toll.

Thanks Thry, for adding your coping mechanism and outlook.

What does 'learning to live with Covid' mean?  If there is a better way than lockdowns, what is it?  The plan to move on from Covid has been announced by the Government (they are good at announcements...) - is it enough for right now?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 06, 2021, 09:54:31 am
IMO, Dodge, lockdowns and elimination should have been used to buy us time to vaccinate quickly. But the Federal Government has been like a uni student who used swot vac to party and then tries to cram everything in the night before the exam. Right now, we should have been where we’ll be early next year. Unfortunately, it seems that outbreaks and subsequent lockdowns are the only way to generate supply of and demand for vaccines.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 06, 2021, 09:58:53 am
We wont be going back to normal even with high vaccination levels and masks/social distancing are something we are going to have to live with for a while IMHO. Cousins of my wife bought a cafe/restaurant in Sydney middle of last year and our now faced with the fact they will only ever be able to have the place half full. Took out a business loan thanks to a mortgage broking shark to buy what they thought was a cheap bargain and now want some of the family to help them out with money or they could lose their home which was security.
This is the other side of CoVid, people going bankrupt and ending up with nothing after failed business ventures and money grabbing vultures exploiting people being desperate.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 06, 2021, 10:10:31 am
IMO, Dodge, lockdowns and elimination should have been used to buy us time to vaccinate quickly. But the Federal Government has been like a uni student who used swot vac to party and then tries to cram everything in the night before the exam. Right now, we should have been where we’ll be early next year. Unfortunately, it seems that outbreaks and subsequent lockdowns are the only way to generate supply of and demand for vaccines.
Firstly the Fed government along with a large US/Australian Pharma company were committed to building pandemic ready vaccine facility well before Covid broke, fact. Secondly, buying in vaccinations from other parts of the world where all the big players are when youre an outpost and pimple like Australia is no mean feat. I think we did well to secure the doses we did if I'm honest. As for lining up locally with CSL to make the AZ vaccine, it was the only choice the government really had. Pfizer doesnt manafucture it here and isn't big enough or ready to make here it anyway. CSL was. Do you think CSL was going to get in bed with Pfizer to contract make their vaccine for them? Yeah right. Be like Carlton and Collingwood sharing coaching/IP resources.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 06, 2021, 10:13:13 am
We wont be going back to normal even with high vaccination levels and masks/social distancing are something we are going to have to live with for a while IMHO. Cousins of my wife bought a cafe/restaurant in Sydney middle of last year and our now faced with the fact they will only ever be able to have the place half full. Took out a business loan thanks to a mortgage broking shark to buy what they thought was a cheap bargain and now want some of the family to help them out with money or they could lose their home which was security.
This is the other side of CoVid, people going bankrupt and ending up with nothing after failed business ventures and money grabbing vultures exploiting people being desperate.

These stories are the real cost of Covid and it makes me sick to the core. As I have stated previously, I hope we as a nation have learnt a few lessons from this thing, I know I have.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 06, 2021, 10:18:36 am
I like the nuance in your post EB. You’ve blamed Covid for your in-laws plight rather than the lockdowns or restrictions that are used to contain it. And I’m sure everyone can empathise with their plight as we’ve all suffered to some degree (though, I hope, not to the same degree). Sure, cafés & restaurants have always been risky, but who could have foreseen they’d be swept away by a tsunami like this?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 06, 2021, 10:25:56 am
IMO, Dodge, lockdowns and elimination should have been used to buy us time to vaccinate quickly. But the Federal Government has been like a uni student who used swot vac to party and then tries to cram everything in the night before the exam. Right now, we should have been where we’ll be early next year. Unfortunately, it seems that outbreaks and subsequent lockdowns are the only way to generate supply of and demand for vaccines.
Yep, the politicians placed a bet driven by short term economic arguments, to look after their business constituency, but almost ignored the "What If we get it Wrong" consequences and now it's actually hurt the commerce even more.

Ironically, I note the banks are today playing ball voluntarily pausing mortgage repayments, but cynically it won't help if after the pause they just want mortgagees to catch up. I understand there are contractual issues that have to be sorted for this to change, but given most terms are many years or many decades surely there is time and they can act more aggressively in the short term. But I heard one economist claim that the problem is the banks know that after a bust comes a boom, and they know that long term they can get a bigger slice of the boom by grabbing a bigger slice now while the buying is cheap. So maybe that voluntary action is not so altruistic!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 06, 2021, 10:30:00 am
I like the nuance in your post EB. You’ve blamed Covid for your in-laws plight rather than the lockdowns or restrictions that are used to contain it. And I’m sure everyone can empathise with their plight as we’ve all suffered to some degree (though, I hope, not to the same degree). Sure, cafés & restaurants have always been risky, but who could have foreseen they’d be swept away by a tsunami like this?
Yes, being a newbie in that sector would not help, supplier issues, functional changes, you would be learning on the ropes while the shape of the ring and opponent keeps changing.

Ironically, in my area some food based services are booming, I think it's partially just luck of the draw. They have reduced wages because they don't employ wait staff, and sales are up dramatically based on takeaway and home delivery. Others that were primarily focussed on seated service have been smashed. Obviously, experience must play a part, especially in managing waste.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 06, 2021, 10:35:01 am
This is the other side of CoVid, people going bankrupt and ending up with nothing after failed business ventures and money grabbing vultures exploiting people being desperate.
Yes, this is horrendous, I think the government has been far too negligent in this area, they have allowed too many to become victims or 3rd party predators. Dodgy financiers, bridging finance crooks, the lowest of the low some of who are profiteering from the collateral victims of COVID-19!

The Feds could have stopped all this by having the big commercial banks act more responsibly for the longer term, I'm surprised the big banks didn't take the opportunity to cut the crooks out of the market, they could have probably done so with Fed Reserve support. Not that the big banks aren't also crooks from time to time, or all the time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 06, 2021, 10:38:12 am
I like the nuance in your post EB. You’ve blamed Covid for your in-laws plight rather than the lockdowns or restrictions that are used to contain it. And I’m sure everyone can empathise with their plight as we’ve all suffered to some degree (though, I hope, not to the same degree). Sure, cafés & restaurants have always been risky, but who could have foreseen they’d be swept away by a tsunami like this?
Mav, they are nice people but have a history of poor decision making with business and lost their parents home to the bank
when another business venture failed. Buying a cafe/restaurant in CoVid times given the extreme lockdown rules in Aus is like buying a surfboard when there is a Tsunami due the next day....a dumb decision which we warned them against.
They want my wife, her sister and brother to give them a loan, they are Slavic/Nth Italians so the family are close and there is this expectation its our duty to help. My wifes sister and her husband have already said No so of course the pressure is on us and her brother to find the money.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 06, 2021, 10:51:36 am
Mav, they are nice people but have a history of poor decision making with business and lost their parents home to the bank
when another business venture failed. Buying a cafe/restaurant in CoVid times given the extreme lockdown rules in Aus is like buying a surfboard when there is a Tsunami due the next day....a dumb decision which we warned them against.
They want my wife, her sister and brother to give them a loan, they are Slavic/Nth Italians so the family are close and there is this expectation its our duty to help. My wifes sister and her husband have already said No so of course the pressure is on us and her brother to find the money.
Tough situation EB
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 06, 2021, 10:55:48 am
Oh boy! I missed the point they’d bought after the pandemic hit. What a risky gamble.

I can’t believe they’d look to relatives to bail them out. If I went to Crown casino and lost $200k at the roulette wheel, I wouldn’t have the chutzpah to tell relatives they needed to foot the bill.

In the taxi industry, taxi owners would band together in a form of Insurance pooling. If one of them was sued over a crash, they’d share the costs (and perhaps also share the costs of fixing the taxi). But that was all organised ahead of time and featured reciprocal obligations. Any owner who was deemed to be a cowboy wouldn’t be allowed into the pool. But here, your in-laws have, unbeknownst to you, effectively made you a co-borrower who is jointly responsible for the loan. You had no chance to assess risk or opt out. And if the café had gone gangbusters, no doubt you wouldn’t have shared In the success.

I don’t envy you. There’ll be heaps of pressure from the family and ironically the sister who refused to pay will probably have some reason why you should pay when she didn’t, thus successfully passing the hot potato. I like to read Ask Prudence in Slate and so many people write in with variations of this issue.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 06, 2021, 11:09:31 am
Bit more to it....We had my daughters wedding planned for Palm Cove in Qld late August...not our idea but her husband to be has a flash well paid job and wanted a more upmarket affair. That of course was cancelled due to CoVid but family concerned have this idea we were paying for this wedding and now have X amount of dollars spare after it was cancelled.
My daughter doesnt want to disclose what hubby to be does or gets paid to anyone so everyone else has the idea we have money to throw around for fancy weddings and they can hit us up.
Another family member was the mortgage broker who arranged them the loan after other financial institutions said No....of course he is keeping a very low profile.....same bloke got my wifes nephew who is in his 1st year after his apprenticeship as an Electrician,newly married and not on big money a large housing loan which he is struggling to pay off after being talked into it.
If interest rates go up he will be in trouble too.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 06, 2021, 11:18:25 am
I’d tell a white lie and say the fiancé’s family were footing the bill for the wedding. That would mean you wouldn’t be putting your daughter and her fiancé in the gun. But that would only work if the in-laws-to-be aren’t known to your extended family. If they’re from the same community, they’d be on the phone immediately.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 06, 2021, 11:34:38 am
Sheesh EB .... really poorly thought out investments if I may say.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on August 06, 2021, 11:58:32 am
Meanwhile, on the ground in Sweden, daily deaths from (with +PCR test) or with CV19 have averaged less than 1 (yes, one) per day for at least a month.

As we all know (by now) that PCR tests do not determine, or diagnose, illness.

Sure sniffs of herd immunity to me.

Oh and you also failed to mentioned, the minority party likely to lead is far right.

Think BNF.

Funny, how you omit, when likely you know full well, the inconvenient truths.

Nothing to do with the virus. Try disdain for the long standing multi-culturist policies!

(note, checking a few web sites seldom beats talking to people on the ground)

The only serious metric of Sweden's success or failure is their excess death count. Both against their own past and other Euro/global nations. noting, their crisis was a nursing home crisis too.

If you need a hand interpreting the data, happy to assist.

But carry on.







I'm not sure that excess death count is the only metric, but:

Quote
Countries in northern Europe have generally experienced much lower mortality rates throughout the pandemic. Some Nordic nations have experienced almost no excess deaths at all. The exception is Sweden, which imposed some of the continent’s least restrictive social-distancing measures during the first wave.
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker

Of its north Europe neighbours, only Estonia comes close to both Sweden's excess deaths and deaths (per 100,000) officially attributed to COVID-19 for the 12 months to March 2021.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 06, 2021, 12:01:22 pm
@EB

Gee EB afaic those relos have huge and unrealistic expectations of you as cousins of your wife! Must be a cultural thing? I wouldn’t consider the financial affairs of a cousin to be any of my business let alone lending/giving them money. Sorry to hear that you have been placed under such pressure. Not helpful I know but I would be telling them to feck off.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on August 06, 2021, 12:05:55 pm
That's messy, EB!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 06, 2021, 12:34:00 pm
I’d tell a white lie and say the fiancé’s family were footing the bill for the wedding. That would mean you wouldn’t be putting your daughter and her fiancé in the gun. But that would only work if the in-laws-to-be aren’t known to your extended family. If they’re from the same community, they’d be on the phone immediately.
They are not that cashed up and coming off a major feckup regarding a land sale they got ripped off from....long story
so that wont work unfortunately.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 06, 2021, 12:43:37 pm
Sheesh EB .... really poorly thought out investments if I may say.
Cap, Got another story thats even worse but I'll save that for a later day.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 06, 2021, 12:56:12 pm
According to 7News:
Quote
In what appeared to be a shift in tone, NSW premier Gladys Berejiklian told reporters “we now have to live with Delta one way or another”.
Just weeks earlier, she had said the community “couldn’t live reasonably” with the highly transmissible variant.
An admission of sorts that she didn’t lock down hard or fast enough and it’s now out of control. Interesting to see where she goes with it. Is she now going to echo SloMo’s “we have to open up and learn to live with Covid” approach? Wouldn’t put it past her to try to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 06, 2021, 12:57:47 pm
That's messy, EB!
Dodge, You can pick your friends and you can pick your wife but you cant pick the family that come with them...not that I can talk my relo's are equally as dismal in most cases. There should be a trade week for relo's....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 06, 2021, 01:12:00 pm
Dodge, You can pick your friends and you can pick your wife but you cant pick the family that come with them...not that I can talk my relo's are equally as dismal in most cases. There should be a trade week for relo's....

Gold. I could think of a couple I'd trade out. Although I doubt I'd get much in return. Maybe a relo Council Cleanup lol.

To be fair, I dare say such feelings are probably mutual lol.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 06, 2021, 01:18:20 pm
Gold. I could think of a couple I'd trade out. Although I doubt I'd get much in return. Maybe a relo Council Cleanup lol.

To be fair, I dare say such feelings are probably mutual lol.

I like the Council Cleanup idea, I could just bundle them up out on the front nature strip like tree branches....I need a few nature strips though, probably an oval...😉
Watched "The Purge" series of Films recently...interesting concept..😛
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 06, 2021, 01:25:53 pm
Cap, Got another story thats even worse but I'll save that for a later day.....

Good God !! ... worse than that?  Enabling failure is not one of my virtues.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 06, 2021, 02:07:20 pm
Dodge, You can pick your friends and you can pick your wife but you cant pick the family that come with them...not that I can talk my relo's are equally as dismal in most cases. There should be a trade week for relo's....
Amen to that EB1.

We are all imperfect people trying to live a perfect life.  What could possibly go wrong?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 06, 2021, 02:36:05 pm
Good God !! ... worse than that?  Enabling failure is not one of my virtues.  
Not mine either but Mrs E is a soft gentle soul who takes family matters to heart and I have to tread carefully with my more direct approach...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 06, 2021, 02:38:35 pm
Not mine either but Mrs E is a soft gentle soul who takes family matters to heart and I have to tread carefully with my more direct approach...

My outlaws have certainly caused me some occasional grief over the years.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 06, 2021, 02:42:00 pm
Not mine either but Mrs E is a soft gentle soul who takes family matters to heart and I have to tread carefully with my more direct approach...
In Italian there is a saying, "ogni casa ha la sua croce" which translated means every house has its own cross (or crucifix) ie every house has its own problems. I'm sure most of us can dig up some stories that would make interesting reading. Perhaps thats a topic for another thread ;D 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 06, 2021, 02:43:09 pm
In Italian there is a saying, "ogni casa ha la sua croce" which translated means every house has its own cross (or crucifix) ie every house has its own problems. I'm sure most of us can dig up some stories that would make interesting reading. Perhaps thats a topic for another thread ;D

Go for it GTC…..😎
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 06, 2021, 02:57:19 pm
In Italian there is a saying, "ogni casa ha la sua croce" which translated means every house has its own cross (or crucifix) ie every house has its own problems. I'm sure most of us can dig up some stories that would make interesting reading. Perhaps thats a topic for another thread ;D 
As Thry said its very hard to get everything perfect in life, that new thread would be interesting reading, you always think the grass is greener until you hear about someone elses life...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 06, 2021, 05:00:21 pm
As Thry said its very hard to get everything perfect in life, that new thread would be interesting reading, you always think the grass is greener until you hear about someone elses life...
Exactly. I remember when my dad passed away (at 59, very young), mum was pretty bitter and angry at the world. Always carrying on about why me? Why our family. It wasn't until I sat her down one day and rattled off all the ill health and death other families had experienced or were experiencing that she finally realised it wasn't a conspiracy against her by some greater being. In sport they talk about only worrying about inside the four walls, in my mu'ms case, she had to look outside them to gain some perspective.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 06, 2021, 06:10:13 pm
Lost my mum at 53 ... man, that was tough.  Was in a very foul mood for months.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 06, 2021, 06:45:26 pm
Lost my mum at 53 ... man, that was tough.  Was in a very foul mood for months.

Feel for you mate. My dear and much loved mum went at 59 after a cruel battle with cancer. I was gutted, long story, and took a long time to recover. Life never really looked quite the same after that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 06, 2021, 06:58:10 pm
EB1, mate, of little consequence but my heart goes out to you, Mrs EB1 and your brother-in-law & family. This is an extraordinarily unfair stress and pressure to be placed under... not only financially, but morally. Not to mention the psychological/emotional toll.

(Love the Italian quote from GTC about every home/family having its cross to bear. I'd take that a step further and suggest that every individual has her/his cross to bear. And only individual accountability and responsibility (which requires courage/honesty) will give us the clearest understanding of how best to deal with our troubles... because, for starters, we'll learn our part in our probs).

I can relate to your horror story, on a professional level, as I found myself on two separate occasions in the past few years embroiled in very near exactly the same situation. Both occasions they were Greek folks and both occasions there was a cultural expectation to bail out family who'd made poor business decisions or failed to have a plan B for tough times or built the business on vulnerable foundations. Amazing how some folks can start spending the money of the wealthier family member, a kind of entitlement, and it's exactly that attitude that got them into the cr@p in the first place. Both my clients were self made millionaires... their siblings/other family members, not so much. Let's not get into sibling competitiveness/jealousy/rivalry.

Long story short, both my clients were (and still are!!) ripper folks with loving hearts for other family members. And their loving hearts had been taken advantage of on a number of occasions. We devised an ethical strategy to give them the loan underpinned by accountability, honesty and responsibility... strings attached, strings that would teach them integrity and business acumen. I won't go into the details -- far too lengthy -- but suffice to say it was a strategy that gave repayment and responsibility and transparency the best chance. Then we sailed the expected rough seas of push-back, anger and guilt manipulation.

As I explained to the guys, people who get an easy bail-out cannot be relied upon for repayment and you're setting yourself up to be an easy target for their next financial failure. Accountability and responsibility (strings) ensured a line in the sand/very reasonable expectation. Give a person a fish... bla bla bla. And if they refuse the conditions of the loan... well, that's their decision.

EB1, if I can be of any help in this at all, please don't hesitate to PM me.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 06, 2021, 07:01:14 pm
Feel for you mate. My dear and much loved mum went at 59 after a cruel battle with cancer. I was gutted, long story, and took a long time to recover. Life never really looked quite the same after that.

Never did to me @cookie2 .. kissed her goodbye as I went off to work, 12 hours later, brain aneurysm. I was inconsolable.

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 06, 2021, 07:05:00 pm
Lost my mum at 53 ... man, that was tough.  Was in a very foul mood for months.

Can relate CC old mate, lost my mum at 51. Bowel cancer. (think I've shared this before). A feisty, highly intelligent, red-head. That was 34 years ago and I still miss her to this day and chat to her regularly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 06, 2021, 07:09:47 pm
Feel for you mate. My dear and much loved mum went at 59 after a cruel battle with cancer. I was gutted, long story, and took a long time to recover. Life never really looked quite the same after that.
Lost my mum at 53 ... man, that was tough.  Was in a very foul mood for months.
@Cap and Cookie......sorry to hear about the early passing of your mothers, way too young. Mums get taken for granted sometimes and you really miss them when they have passed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 06, 2021, 07:36:40 pm
Can relate CC old mate, lost my mum at 51. Bowel cancer. (think I've shared this before). A feisty, highly intelligent, red-head. That was 34 years ago and I still miss her to this day and chat to her regularly.

Lost count of the number of times when I wondered a fast or a lingering passing would have been better.  40 years later, still no answer @Baggers ... but sincere thanks to all of you :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 06, 2021, 07:48:24 pm
Lost count of the number of times when I wondered a fast or a lingering passing would have been better.  40 years later, still no answer @Baggers ... but sincere thanks to all of you :)

Gotta be honest mate, I wonder if any difference matters. We did get to say good-bye but witnessing the horrible decline and wasting of such passionate and beautiful person still haunts me. And even though we knew the end was coming, when it came it was a massive shock and a heart-wrenching loss, a void never to be filled. I felt the same with my dad only 8 months ago. Even though he was a pr1ck in so many ways, love looks beyond behaviour. I apologize for any sorrow indulgence or sanctimoniousness.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 06, 2021, 08:10:44 pm
The last few posts hit a nerve with me.

We lost dad at 56.  He was unlucky.  Liver failure as a result of chemo that was to prep him for a bone marrow transplant.  Went from stabilizing red and white blood cell balance and generally looking all good with his chronic lymphocytic leukaemia to feeling like his insides and had been burnt, and subsequently hospitalised in two weeks.  Turns out a human can survive about a month total without a functioning liver. 

We carry a piece of our loved ones with us everywhere we go.  You don't get over it, you just get used to it is the best way to put it. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Milhanna13 on August 06, 2021, 08:46:36 pm
My old man was 75, and even that was too early.  Felt a little silly (and selfish, knowing others lost theirs much earlier) being a middle aged bloke, feeling sorry for himself that he lost his dad, but that’s how it felt and still does.  

Still, to this day (7 years later), reach for my phone to call him, when something happens with the Blues.  JSOS’ game in the ruck last week would’ve lead to a 20min phone call!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 06, 2021, 09:03:27 pm
My old man was 75, and even that was too early.  Felt a little silly (and selfish, knowing others lost theirs much earlier) being a middle aged bloke, feeling sorry for himself that he lost his dad, but that’s how it felt and still does.  

Still, to this day (7 years later), reach for my phone to call him, when something happens with the Blues.  JSOS’ game in the ruck last week would’ve lead to a 20min phone call!!
When my Mum passed away I would grab the phone to ring her months after to chat about the kids or something happening at work as she was always interested and then realize that call wasnt going to be possible so I feel for you not being able to share with your father.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 06, 2021, 09:03:57 pm
EB1, mate, of little consequence but my heart goes out to you, Mrs EB1 and your brother-in-law & family. This is an extraordinarily unfair stress and pressure to be placed under... not only financially, but morally. Not to mention the psychological/emotional toll.

(Love the Italian quote from GTC about every home/family having its cross to bear. I'd take that a step further and suggest that every individual has her/his cross to bear. And only individual accountability and responsibility (which requires courage/honesty) will give us the clearest understanding of how best to deal with our troubles... because, for starters, we'll learn our part in our probs).

I can relate to your horror story, on a professional level, as I found myself on two separate occasions in the past few years embroiled in very near exactly the same situation. Both occasions they were Greek folks and both occasions there was a cultural expectation to bail out family who'd made poor business decisions or failed to have a plan B for tough times or built the business on vulnerable foundations. Amazing how some folks can start spending the money of the wealthier family member, a kind of entitlement, and it's exactly that attitude that got them into the cr@p in the first place. Both my clients were self made millionaires... their siblings/other family members, not so much. Let's not get into sibling competitiveness/jealousy/rivalry.

Long story short, both my clients were (and still are!!) ripper folks with loving hearts for other family members. And their loving hearts had been taken advantage of on a number of occasions. We devised an ethical strategy to give them the loan underpinned by accountability, honesty and responsibility... strings attached, strings that would teach them integrity and business acumen. I won't go into the details -- far too lengthy -- but suffice to say it was a strategy that gave repayment and responsibility and transparency the best chance. Then we sailed the expected rough seas of push-back, anger and guilt manipulation.

As I explained to the guys, people who get an easy bail-out cannot be relied upon for repayment and you're setting yourself up to be an easy target for their next financial failure. Accountability and responsibility (strings) ensured a line in the sand/very reasonable expectation. Give a person a fish... bla bla bla. And if they refuse the conditions of the loan... well, that's their decision.

EB1, if I can be of any help in this at all, please don't hesitate to PM me.
Check your PM's Shaneo...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on August 06, 2021, 09:18:51 pm
My old man was 75, and even that was too early.  Felt a little silly (and selfish, knowing others lost theirs much earlier) being a middle aged bloke, feeling sorry for himself that he lost his dad, but that’s how it felt and still does.  

Still, to this day (7 years later), reach for my phone to call him, when something happens with the Blues.  JSOS’ game in the ruck last week would’ve lead to a 20min phone call!!

Don’t feel selfish mate. Your dad is your dad and even though the longer you have them the more grateful you are when they are gone the loss is still hard regardless.

I lost mine at 61 from Bowel cancer 15 years ago. I was 33 at the time which I still felt like a kid and wondered how I would cope without him. He was by far the biggest influence on my life.

Sad to see so many on here loss loved ones to cancer. My mum had breast cancer at 33 and my wife had it at 23 and again twice in her 30s. Watched my father in law who was an amazing man die at home from It as well.
craphouse illness that changes your life forever whether you survive it or not and in many ways.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 07, 2021, 08:34:29 am
29 cases today and we have had lockdowns or restrictions for the last month.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 07, 2021, 08:56:57 am
29 cases today and we have had lockdowns or restrictions for the last month.
At that rate this one will last 8 months
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 07, 2021, 09:10:40 am
Gettin' ugly alright
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 07, 2021, 09:17:24 am
As Covid improves, we get slacker. Last Wednesday I was watching my son’s footy training with another 4 fathers in the vicinity. I was the only one masked notwithstanding the law required masking outdoors, we’d just come out of a lockdown and the signs were there we’d be going back into lockdown. And when we need to lockdown, you can always trust the antilockdown nuffies to spread it around just a little bit more.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 07, 2021, 09:30:48 am
As Covid improves, we get slacker. Last Wednesday I was watching my son’s footy training with another 4 fathers in the vicinity. I was the only one masked notwithstanding the law required masking outdoors, we’d just come out of a lockdown and the signs were there we’d be going back into lockdown. And when we need to lockdown, you can always trust the antilockdown nuffies to spread it around just a little bit more.

Yep.

I went into a health food shop on Wednesday last and I was the only one of around a half dozen people wearing a mask, including the two behind the counter. Oh the irony.  >:(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 07, 2021, 09:32:57 am
29 cases today and we have had lockdowns or restrictions for the last month.

All linked to known outbreaks I understand.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 07, 2021, 09:51:14 am
All linked to known outbreaks I understand.
Think I read  none were in quarantine so they were out and about, rolling lockdowns predicted for the rest of the year both in Victoria and NSW.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 07, 2021, 09:54:57 am
Yep.

I went into a health food shop on Wednesday last and I was the only one of around a half dozen people wearing a mask, including the two behind the counter. Oh the irony.  >:(
The owners of a health food shop in Sydney were arrested by the police a while back. Although masks were required in shops, this couple of old hippies had refused admittance to anyone wearing a mask. Their logic was that people wearing masks tend to touch them and that means they might then transfer the Covid to the produce. That might have been some sort of admission masks trap the virus before it’s breathed in, but I’m guessing it was just the best excuse they could think of to justify their anti-masker stance.

Asian countries must be bemused by anti-maskers. They’ve been masking up for years,
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 07, 2021, 09:58:34 am
I have no problem with masks
btw but working really well in Indonesia?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 07, 2021, 10:02:58 am
Happy to amend to “some” Asian countries! I’m guessing the ones affected by SARS.

By the way, the testing regime is pretty slick these days. I was tested yesterday about 2pm and got a negative result text 8am.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 07, 2021, 10:41:58 am
All linked to known outbreaks I understand.

None in isolation while infected.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 07, 2021, 10:47:44 am
All linked to known outbreaks I understand.
Problem is the origin of the outbreaks is still a mystery.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 07, 2021, 10:48:54 am
Yep.

I went into a health food shop on Wednesday last and I was the only one of around a half dozen people wearing a mask, including the two behind the counter. Oh the irony.  >:(
That deserves a phone call to the authorities in my book.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 07, 2021, 10:57:19 am
Problem is the origin of the outbreaks is still a mystery.

Its not a mystery, they just don't want to say.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 07, 2021, 11:02:08 am
Its not a mystery, they just don't want to say.
Why?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 07, 2021, 11:14:02 am
Its not a mystery, they just don't want to say.

No doubt we are not privy to all of the details.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 07, 2021, 11:25:24 am
Could well be wrong, but those two removalists I imagine? 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 07, 2021, 11:38:25 am
Hot off the press, from a US pathologist....

https://rumble.com/vkopys-a-pathologist-summary-of-what-these-jabs-do-to-the-brain-and-other-organs.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 07, 2021, 11:58:21 am
https://theconversation.com/meet-rumble-canadas-new-free-speech-platform-and-its-impact-on-the-fight-against-online-misinformation-163343
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 07, 2021, 12:08:57 pm
https://www.factcheck.org/2021/04/scicheck-idaho-doctor-makes-baseless-claims-about-safety-of-covid-19-vaccines/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 07, 2021, 12:09:51 pm
Hot off the press, from a US pathologist....

https://rumble.com/vkopys-a-pathologist-summary-of-what-these-jabs-do-to-the-brain-and-other-organs.html
Hot off the press from FactCheck.org: Idaho Doctor Makes Baseless Claims About Safety of COVID-19 Vaccines (https://www.factcheck.org/2021/04/scicheck-idaho-doctor-makes-baseless-claims-about-safety-of-covid-19-vaccines/).

Surely you could post some more reputable stuff. If you’d posted about a Doctor screaming about Demon blood, at least that would have been more interesting.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 07, 2021, 12:10:08 pm
https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/not-all-coronaviruses-are-seasonal-contrary-to-pathologist-ryan-coles-claim-covid-19-vaccines-are-effective-at-preventing-illness/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 07, 2021, 12:12:00 pm
Beat me to it Paul! Posting here is like an Olympic event: every second matters :D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 07, 2021, 12:16:49 pm
https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/local/208/garden-city-doctor-reacts-fact-checking-his-statements-lawmakers/277-6d4ba8c6-3eb7-4334-bfe2-2052c57a7e0e

It's undoubtedly true IMO that mRNA vaccines have never been used in humans before, and as such the long term effects are unknown. This leaves open the possibility that long term effects will be either negligible or bad. We can only conclude an unknown outcome, not automatically assume that because long term effects are not known they will automatically be bad. I think in this instance, Ryan Cole's comments may have been taken a little out of context. He claims that both he and his kids have been vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 07, 2021, 12:18:05 pm
It doesn't help that his video (at least in the link provided above) is from Rumble.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 07, 2021, 12:26:53 pm
Yep. Rumble Sends Viewers Tumbling Toward Misinformation (https://www.wired.com/story/rumble-sends-viewers-tumbling-toward-misinformation/), Wired.
Quote
Rumble claims that it does not promote misinformation or conspiracy theories but simply has a free-speech approach to regulation. However, our research reveals that Rumble has not only allowed misinformation to thrive on its platform, it has also actively recommended it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 07, 2021, 12:34:44 pm
Vaccinations is the only way to beat covid. We haven't been able to have visitors in our homes for a month and we had 29 cases in one day.
Sydney are locked down and it still can't stop this.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 07, 2021, 12:37:11 pm
Treatments for covid is just nonsense. If everyone got covid how are you going to treat them all?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 07, 2021, 12:58:37 pm
True. The irony is that vaccinations are driven by these outbreaks but those rushing to get the jab are too late to protect themselves against this outbreak. I’m still waiting for my 2nd shot and even when I get it I’ll have to wait another 2 weeks for it to give me maximal benefit.

There was an article from a science reporter in The Age who pointed out that people irrationally take into account the likelihood they’ll be infected with Covid in the next week or so. When Covid is well contained, people therefore think there’s little risk of infection, so the infinitesimal risk of an adverse reaction to the vaccine isn’t worth taking. The reporter points out that we should be assuming we’ll all be exposed to Covid at some point in the future, so we should weigh the risk of death or serious injury from a Covid infection against the risk of death or serious injury from taking the vaccine. And particularly for older people, taking the vaccine is the only rational choice. As the reporter points out, who has managed to escape colds or flu over the last few years? Once Covid becomes endemic, it’s only a matter of time until it does the rounds.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 07, 2021, 01:04:52 pm
Vaccinations is the only way to beat covid. We haven't been able to have visitors in our homes for a month and we had 29 cases in one day.
Sydney are locked down and it still can't stop this.


That doesn't stop people from doing the wrong thing, visit each other and this case, spread the virus resulting in another lockdown. If people did the right thing, we'd at least stand half a chance. As for all the cockheads protesting the other night, I'd just put a bullet between their eyes (apologies if this offends but...)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 07, 2021, 01:28:06 pm
I'm liking this thread more and more by the day! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 07, 2021, 04:25:37 pm
Hot off the press from FactCheck.org: Idaho Doctor Makes Baseless Claims About Safety of COVID-19 Vaccines (https://www.factcheck.org/2021/04/scicheck-idaho-doctor-makes-baseless-claims-about-safety-of-covid-19-vaccines/).

Surely you could post some more reputable stuff. If you’d posted about a Doctor screaming about Demon blood, at least that would have been more interesting.

Those fact check sites are drivel.

As is your usual, incapable of addressing the substance so swipe at the man.....

He's a nationally recognised pathologist. Eminently qualified to comment.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 07, 2021, 04:33:31 pm
Those fact check sites are drivel.

As is your usual, incapable of addressing the substance so swipe at the man.....

He's a nationally recognised pathologist. Eminently qualified to comment.
The Pfizer and AZ death rates globally are very similar, the AZ deaths are primarily related to the 1st shot, the Pfizer deaths are equally distributed between 1st and 2nd shot. Both average between 1 and 2 deaths per million doses.

Hmm, his math is drivel, 11,045 vaccine deaths in the US would need 11,045,000,000 vaccination doses to even get close to that tally! Unless of course Pfizer is magically 30x to 40x more deadly just to Americans! He also mentions "25,000", "45,000" vaccine deaths in the USA.

He claims "they report" not one death from vaccine, he claims "they tell you" nobody hurt from vaccine, he claims "that is what 'they' tell you"

That is his lie, a few of them, obvious lies!

The USA has only purchased about 500,000,000 Pfizer doses, and has only issued 208,000,000 Pfizer doses to July 2021, so based on the 208,000,000 Pfizer doses issued the Dr is claiming 53 deaths per million vaccine doses!

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 07, 2021, 04:46:37 pm
Hmm, his math is drivel, 11,045 vaccine deaths in the US would need 1,200,000,000 vaccinations! Unless Pfizer is 4x more deadly just to Americans!

He claims "they report" not one death from vaccine, nobody hurt from vaccine, he claims "that is what they tell you"

That is his lie!

The USA has only purchased about 500,000,000 Pfizer doses, and has only issued 208,000,000 Pfizer doses to July 2021! :o

Hear of the word hyperbole LP?

What rubbish. The 11,000? He's simply citing VAERS - which everyone knows vastly under reports the reality.

Bleat as long and hard as you like, the facts are the facts.

And you've done exactly zero to provide ANY evidence to refute any of the data I've put up.

Ah, the UK's latest variant report was out yesterday. Simply confirms my earlier conclusions (and slams yours).

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1009243/Technical_Briefing_20.pdf

My last comment on this as too many of you have your heads firmly below ground.

Caveat emptor.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 07, 2021, 05:01:50 pm
My last comment on this as too many of you have your heads firmly below ground.
Awww, sorry to see you run away, didn't mean to hurt. :(

Taking your ball and going home, or can I call a Waaahmbulance!

PS: Just trying to live up to the Ad Hominem accusations! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 07, 2021, 06:14:52 pm
Those fact check sites are drivel.

As is your usual, incapable of addressing the substance so swipe at the man.....

He's a nationally recognised pathologist. Eminently qualified to comment.
I’ve noticed you tend to project your faults on others. You regularly engage in ad hominem attacks but accuse others of using that tactic. And then you condemn taking “swipes at the man” but you do so immediately after declaring “Those fact check sites are drivel.” Hypocritical at best.

Of course, you know the fact check article we posted didn’t just say “he’s a wanker”. The fact checkers critiqued the good doctor methodically and compendiously. Just to take but 1 aspect:
Quote
To those bogus claims, Cole has now added: “mRNA trials in mammals have led to odd cancers. mRNA trials on mammals have led to autoimmune diseases — not right away, six, nine, 12 months later.”

We asked Cole to provide support for those claims, and he referred us to a 2018 paper published in the journal Nature Reviews Drug Discovery that reviewed trials and studies of various, earlier mRNA vaccines.

But that paper doesn’t support his statement.

Norbert Pardi, a research assistant professor of medicine at the University of Pennsylvania, was the lead author of the paper. He told us in an email, “No publications demonstrate that mRNA vaccines cause cancer or autoimmune diseases.”

Pardi’s 19-page paper does make one passing reference to autoimmune diseases, which is what Cole highlighted to us.

The paper says: “A possible concern could be that some mRNA-based vaccine platforms induce potent type I interferon responses, which have been associated not only with inflammation but also potentially with autoimmunity. Thus, identification of individuals at an increased risk of autoimmune reactions before mRNA vaccination may allow reasonable precautions to be taken.”

But, Pardi explained, he and the other researchers included that passage because they wanted to note some potential concerns. However, he emphasized that “no scientific evidence has confirmed that these concerns are real.”

It’s also worth noting that the paper predated the COVID-19 pandemic by two years, so it doesn’t include any information specifically about the COVID-19 vaccines.

Simply put, “there is no scientific evidence that shows that mRNA vaccines cause autoimmune diseases,” Pardi said. “Multiple clinical trials have been performed with mRNA vaccines in the past 10 years and none of them found that mRNA vaccination caused autoimmune diseases. Further, we are not aware of any studies showing an autoimmune disease appearing many months after vaccination as Dr. Cole inaccurately suggests.”

Likewise, Dr. Roger Shapiro, associate professor of immunology and infectious diseases at Harvard’s T.H. Chan School of Public Health, told us in an email that he was unaware of any study that would support Cole’s claim that the vaccines are carcinogenic.

“There is nothing in the science of mRNA vaccines that would suggest carcinogenicity, and they have been tested in humans for other diseases before COVID-19,” Shapiro said. “mRNA rapidly breaks down in the body, and probably does not last long enough to act as a carcinogen.”

“Regarding autoimmunity,” he said, “this is always a concern with any medical product, but there is no evidence to date suggesting it, and it does not seem any more likely than with other vaccines. mRNA is made all the time in our bodies, and delivering it by vaccine should not be different.”

Dr. Dean Winslow, an infectious disease physician at Stanford Health Care, concurred with the other experts with whom we spoke. In a phone interview, he characterized Cole’s claims about cancer as “fearmongering” and said, “There’s just no scientific basis for that.”

“We’re talking about these very small fragments of messenger RNA that don’t hang around for long at all,” he said, noting that the mRNA vaccines have been in use for almost six months and have been “very safe, very well-tolerated vaccines.”

Winslow recognized that some people are concerned that the mRNA from the vaccine might persist in their bodies and somehow change their genetics or cause long-term effects. So he emphasized that the vaccines have small fragments of RNA, which survive only briefly and carry information about the virus that causes COVID-19.

Similarly, Pardi told us, “COVID-19 mRNA vaccines do not alter our DNA and they get rapidly degraded so they do not promote cancer formation.”
Fancy that: the good doctor makes a bombshell claim that mRNA trials had led to autoimmune disease but when challenged he sought to rely on a paper whose lead author says his paper didn’t support that claim. And experts in the area call Cole out for fearmongering and having no scientific basis for his claims.

And remember this is just one baseless claim amongst others that were methodically  debunked.

Well, well, well, it looks as though the good doctor is nationally recognised as a fraud.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 08, 2021, 08:06:01 am
Fancy that: the good doctor makes a bombshell claim that mRNA trials had led to autoimmune disease but when challenged he sought to rely on a paper whose lead author says his paper didn’t support that claim. And experts in the area call Cole out for fearmongering and having no scientific basis for his claims.
I can't help but feel that I have come across this tactic before!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 08, 2021, 08:41:48 am
As Covid improves, we get slacker. Last Wednesday I was watching my son’s footy training with another 4 fathers in the vicinity. I was the only one masked notwithstanding the law required masking outdoors, we’d just come out of a lockdown and the signs were there we’d be going back into lockdown. And when we need to lockdown, you can always trust the antilockdown nuffies to spread it around just a little bit more.

People are tired.  Mask wearing was only going to go so far.  I hate them, everyone I know hates them, and I truly believe they are a mild prophylactic anyway and that the benefits of mask wearing is largely based in results in changes to the way people go out.  The majority dont go out because they don't want to wear a mask (whether they agree or disagree with wearing it).  It means people go out when they have to, not when they want.  Thats the benefit of mask wearing. 

Most people don't wear them properly and I've witnessed enough people not wearing them frequently enough for it to be continuing silent spreading.

My mums cousin died on Thursday.  She had made biscuits as is tradition to take to the grieving family and they bought some coffee and a bottle of brandy to take around.  She was on the fence about going so I said to her go around.  You're not going for a fun time, and you're making sure a grieving family know that someone is thinking of them.  Even if you don't go in that's enough.

People are care giving to their loved ones.  Most people need to do this.  We can't just sit around waiting for the end of this and I know first hand of more people to suffer mentally with covid so far than physically.  I do expect that equation to change in time but I think its a bit ridiculous that people can't safely see loved ones in their own houses but somehow can out in public.  That's a load of bullcrap really.

Found out about a healthcare workers partner who committed suicide 5 weeks ago.  This isn't ducks and drakes here.  People are struggling with this stuff. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on August 08, 2021, 09:33:32 am
Sorry to hear that.   For every single person who is undergoing serious physical,  mental or financial pain due to CoViD there seems to be a excess of denialists,  escapists or downright selfish c**ts.

I'm getting tired and frustrated of the "we're all in this together" schtickt when that's clearly rubbish and the reason we're in trouble... Until the above latter group gets in line with the minority trying to do the right thing we'll never, ever get on top of this thing - never.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 08, 2021, 09:36:17 am
I’ve noticed you tend to project your faults on others. You regularly engage in ad hominem attacks but accuse others of using that tactic. And then you condemn taking “swipes at the man” but you do so immediately after declaring “Those fact check sites are drivel.” Hypocritical at best.

Of course, you know the fact check article we posted didn’t just say “he’s a wanker”. The fact checkers critiqued the good doctor methodically and compendiously. Just to take but 1 aspect:Fancy that: the good doctor makes a bombshell claim that mRNA trials had led to autoimmune disease but when challenged he sought to rely on a paper whose lead author says his paper didn’t support that claim. And experts in the area call Cole out for fearmongering and having no scientific basis for his claims.

And remember this is just one baseless claim amongst others that were methodically  debunked.

Well, well, well, it looks as though the good doctor is nationally recognised as a fraud.




Quote
No publications demonstrate that mRNA vaccines cause cancer or autoimmune diseases.

And therefor they're safe?

Gee, that's stellar logic. ROFL. Were you pissed when you wrote  that?

Nationally recognised? By a couple of unknown nobodies....how about discussing the content?

Cole's hardly the only one raising big questions. Robert Malone, who essentially invented the mRNA technology, is another.

Stephanie Seneff, a highly regarded biophysicist another.....

https://ijvtpr.com/index.php/IJVTPR/article/view/23

Pfizer's Japanese biodiversification study, in itself, should be ample evidence in itself to halt these vaccines  until further is known.

If you hadn't noticed, mRNA vaccines are brand, shiny new and folk who question them get ostracised, not funded for studies that will likely conclude they're bad.

ADE is the big fear. why had all earlier attempts at making vaccines for corona viruses failed?

https://doi.org/10.3389/fimmu.2021.640093

By all means bury your brains 8 feet under and refuse to consider the' 'other' side....

As Baggers so eloquently said (paraphrasing), do I really give a toss what you think?

As for your ad hominem allegation, BS.

I work with data professionally, I get data and I can interpret data.

You lot ( a good few of you sadly) just opine without any supporting evidence....it's clear LP has long got way with his bully boy "I know more than you' mantra.....well, that's kindergarten stuff.

I'll leave you with a few simple images.

Interpret them as you see fit.

ps Mav, I suggest you read up on what constitutes an ad hominem attack. Me saying a fact check site is carp is not an ad hominem attack on you. By definition.






Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 08, 2021, 09:53:00 am
Those vaccine passports are going to work a treat!

https://twitter.com/i/status/1423754200274677761

And kapow, fading after 6 months = NOT a vaccine. Jus a flawed gene technology.

2ND Israeli study (1st here: https://twitter.com/andrewbostom/status/1421877354708750341) confirms mRNA C19 vax wanes significantly within 5mos (146d), and for those 60+ yo ↑’s risk of SARSCOV2 infection by ~3-fold vs. <146d

https://medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.03.21261496v1.full.pdf
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 08, 2021, 10:32:20 am

And therefor they're safe? 77, you're putting words/interpretations into the mouth of another. The quote that Wingman MAV shared, simply quoted that there is no evidence that xyz causes cancer. Full stop. You're manufacturing an interpretation to suit you narrative. No vaccine, no medication is 100% safe. You simply cannot think in absolutes when it comes to medications and vaccines.

If you read the sheet listing potential side-effects and risks associated with the medication I take for the management of PTSD (anxiety/depression disorders), you'd be fear struck and not touch it. But the alternative is far worse - poor quality of life and the potential for worsening mental health to the point of contemplating yourself leaving planet Earth. The plusses far, far out weigh the side-effects. I need liver function tests every 12 months to monitor the potential harmful effects of the medication - so what do I do about these potential, very real side-effects, etc? I ensure my diet includes foods that aid and support my liver function. That's taking responsibility for your own health. 22 years of liver function blood tests have revealed my liver is doing great.

If you want to focus on the things which potentially harm our bodies you need look no further than alcohol, sugar and processed foods. They do far more harm than any vaccines and many medications - a diet of these things fast tracks diabetes, heart disease, some cancers, some mental illnesses and so on.

Gee, that's stellar logic. ROFL. Were you pissed when you wrote  that? Putdowns never aid or strengthen your argument - ask yourself why you so need to do such things. In fact such putdowns only weaken your argument and succeed in divisiveness. This response and attitude will never strengthen or validate your opinion or supporting data.

By all means bury your brains 8 feet under and refuse to consider the' 'other' side.... again with the putdown... but what I do read into this sentence, and it is an assumption only, is someone wanting to be acknowledged for his contribution. Very reasonable. But whenever we do share any contribution pushback and questioning come with the territory... and it is often NOT personal, but you have an unfortunate tendency to get personal in response.

As Baggers so eloquently said (paraphrasing), do I really give a toss what you think? You used my comment to you totally out of context which is really quite manipulative. My comment to you was in relation to your expectations of me. To re-iterate, your expectations of me are of little to no interest to me.

As for your ad hominem allegation, BS. Not so. Sorry Cocko, but you do get personal. And you might want to acquaint yourself with the psychological fact/phenomenon of 'projection.'

I work with data professionally, I get data and I can interpret data. Okay, an important skill, but that does NOT assume nor is it evidentiary/proof that you are always right.

You lot ( a good few of you sadly) just opine without any supporting evidence....it's clear LP has long got way with his bully boy "I know more than you' mantra.....well, that's kindergarten stuff. I've never read anything from the Spotted One that stated he knew more than you... you simply interpreted his questioning of your data personally. Believe me, I know what it is like to be overly sensitive - again, an assumption only on my part (that you may be too sensitive to questioning).

I'll leave you with a few simple images.

Interpret them as you see fit.

ps Mav, I suggest you read up on what constitutes an ad hominem attack. Me saying a fact check site is carp is not an ad hominem attack on you. By definition. His ad hominem comment did not relate to your data or the interpretation thereof, it related to the manner in which you communicated your data.







Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 08, 2021, 11:52:36 am
I cant see Vaccine Passports working short or medium term, travel bubbles with safe countries like New Zealand who have low numbers of infections and tight controls I could see happening but even with 70-80% vaccine rates you just cant open up Australia to everyone from around the globe. Breakthrough infections are happening and the virus will continue to produce variants which will need modified Booster vaccines to deal with and you just cant trust who or what rocks up from another country saying they are vaccinated. I was watching the cricket from England and the dopey Poms are all crammed into together with no seat spacing, hanging around the bars all jammed in and clearly dont give a feck about social distancing.
7 day average was 23k cases a day about a week ago, They have 70% of the population with one dose and 60% with two doses......this is close to what everyone is praying for out here to open up and they are averaging 23k cases a day.
As well as Vaccinations they need to be working on treatments as well because this isnt going away anytime soon and opening up is still going to mean a lot of sick folk going by those English figures.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on August 08, 2021, 02:12:09 pm
Yep,  vaccine passports won't work EB because the nuffies and people who are "special" will find a way to wriggle out if it.  Not enough uptake so ineffective.    Just like the age care homes where residents are refusing vaccines,  or the dumb bitch from the tower block on the news last night "lock down is against my rights,  but I'm not gonna get the jab because somebody tells me to" or my SIL,  who has been sucked into the cult of stupidity of the conspiracy theories and refuses point blank to vaccinate, wear a mask etc.

This is going to be years people.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 08, 2021, 02:24:03 pm
And therefor they're safe?
This tactic is called creating certain uncertainty, twisting the concept that nothing is perfect to then allege something that isn't perfect is therefore faulty.

Cole's hardly the only one raising big questions. Robert Malone, who essentially invented the mRNA technology, is another.
Drew Weissman invented mRNA vaccines in collaboration with Dr. Katalin Karikó, Malone wrote a paper in a related field and then later falsely claimed he was the inventor of mRNA vaccines on his personal blog. I presume that was trying to lay the grounds for a money grab from what Malone recognises as a future billion $ industry. Malone must have failed because he sure seems bitter now!

I work with data professionally, I get data and I can interpret data.
Some of us will recall you told us you were a lawyer in this very thread, just before you sprayed a heap of abuse when I exposed the dodgy facts in one of your posts. Down the rabbit hole! :o

Of course most of us stick to debating the facts unless we are highlighting a contradiction, you are the one that makes it personal as @Mav correctly points out.

You lot ( a good few of you sadly) just opine without any supporting evidence....it's clear LP has long got way with his bully boy "I know more than you' mantra.....well, that's kindergarten stuff.

ps Mav, I suggest you read up on what constitutes an ad hominem attack. Me saying a fact check site is carp is not an ad hominem attack on you. By definition.
Wowza, ........... didn't even make it to the end of the post before contradicting yourself! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 09, 2021, 02:28:44 pm
I’ve noticed you tend to project your faults on others. You regularly engage in ad hominem attacks but accuse others of using that tactic. And then you condemn taking “swipes at the man” but you do so immediately after declaring “Those fact check sites are drivel.” Hypocritical at best.
Surely, you understood that these were 2 separate (though related) criticisms of you, Flyboy. The first is that you regularly use ad hominem attacks against those who post in this thread. The other is that you regularly dismiss any expert we cite as being worthless or corrupt. Your “swipe at the man” directed at the fact checker who carefully analysed and rebutted the good doctor’s theories and also directed at all the experts cited is an example of the latter.

Interesting to see Nick Coatsworth, former deputy CMO to the Federal Government is still maintaining the rage against Victoria: Public health leaders regret failure to rebuke anti-vaxxers, ‘zero COVID’ advocates (https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/public-health-leaders-regret-failure-to-rebuke-anti-vaxxers-zero-covid-advocates-20210806-p58gmf.html), the SMH.

Quote
Former deputy chief medical officer Nick Coatsworth, one of the government’s top advisers in the early phase of the pandemic, said authorities underestimated the influence of commentators and academics who advocated an indefinite zero-COVID strategy and denigrated the AstraZeneca vaccine – and deliberately chose not to call them out publicly.

We always took the view in government, myself included, that this was a small group of people who didn’t have that much influence, and we would create more problems for ourselves if we started questioning academic freedom or asking people to stay in their swim lane,” Dr Coatsworth told The Sun-Herald and The Sunday Age.

“I actually think that was the wrong position to take. We should have been a lot firmer. We needed stronger voices out there. If I had my time again I think I would have been as forthright as I have in the last couple of weeks, [but] six months earlier.”

Dr Coatsworth, who is now executive director of medical services at Canberra Health Services, has recently used speeches, opinion pieces and social media to speak out against an indefinite “zero-COVID” approach and warn Australians must prepare for the virus to circulate as borders open.

He had suggested reopening at a vaccination rate of 50 per cent but called for the country to unite behind the 70 and 80 per cent targets modelled by the Doherty Institute and adopted by national cabinet.

Dr Coatsworth said he regretted underestimating the influence of zero-COVID advocates in the academy, whose commentary has shaped the discourse on COVID-19 management in Australia.

“There’s a very strong network in Australian academia that is pro COVID-zero,” he said. “There’s some very influential policy people, particularly down in Victoria, who have that particular view.

Extreme zero-COVID views look good, but they can have a fair few negative consequences that are difficult to count.”

Long-serving former Health Department secretary Jane Halton – who also sat on the government’s National COVID-19 Commission Advisory Board – did not agree with Dr Coatsworth about COVID-zero advocates but admitted the public health community had failed to counter misinformation about vaccines, especially AstraZeneca, and it was possibly too late to reverse the damage.

“I think nobody really understood how really problematic information that’s been circulating on social media – unchecked and unchallenged – has been for confidence in vaccines generally, and in AstraZeneca in particular,” Dr Halton told The Sun-Herald and The Sunday Age.

“We’ve all been out advocating vaccination. But I don’t think we’ve said enough about why people shouldn’t believe a lot of what they read. We shouldn’t assume that people understand all of these issues.”

So, when Dr Nick was given a chance to lash anti-vaxxer misinformation, he lashes Victoria instead. And his threshold for opening up is when somewhere between 30% and 40% of the total population is vaccinated ...

Was this guy driving Slomo’s “We’ve got to open up and live with Covid” line or did he just fall in line? Is he now justifying his efforts or maybe trying to win preselection with the Liberals?

It seems to me that “zero Covid extremists” are a figment of his imagination. Those wanting elimination see it as a stopgap until vaccinations reach herd-immunity levels. That’s pretty much the National Covid Cabinet’s approach.

One comment to the article summed it up pretty nicely. To paraphrase, zero-Covid’s a thing because Covid 1 or Covid 300 isn’t - because of exponential growth, those numbers aren't stable. To keep new Covid cases around 300 as Gladys is doing, you still need harsh lockdowns and restrictions.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 09, 2021, 02:41:43 pm
I'd also like to ask Dr Nick why he singles out Victoria. In what way are the Govts (and their advisors) in SA, Qld, & WA more relaxed about living with Covid? I would have thought WA is just about the most extreme. The fact he tries to limit his attack to 1 State suggests he's following military doctrine of not opening up wars on multiple fronts. Trying to otherise 1 State is pretty shabby from a public health advocate. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 09, 2021, 02:45:51 pm
I'd also like to ask Dr Nick why he singles out Victoria. In what way are the Govts (and their advisors) in SA, Qld, & WA more relaxed about living with Covid? I would have thought WA is just about the most extreme. The fact he tries to limit his attack to 1 State suggests he's following military doctrine of not opening up wars on multiple fronts. Trying to otherise 1 State is pretty shabby from a public health advocate.
Lots of politics going on here, is this something to do with Canberra being stuck in the middle of NSW?
 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 09, 2021, 04:39:26 pm
Lots of politics going on here, is this something to do with Canberra being stuck in the middle of NSW?
 
Bit like the cricket, its easier to get a game in the test team if you play for NSW....of course Dangerous Dan being hardcore Labor doesnt help either and you have ScoMo looking after his Liberal lacky in Gladys..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 09, 2021, 09:26:43 pm
Moves against Berejiklian tomorrow ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 09, 2021, 09:32:34 pm
Moves against Berejiklian tomorrow ...

Pretty damning report on her on 7:30 earlier.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 09, 2021, 10:12:31 pm
Don't think New South Wales folk are as forgiving as Victorians.  Lord of the flies moment.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 10, 2021, 09:22:32 am
Sobering data from Iceland: Iceland deals with growing Delta outbreak as high vaccination rates stop deaths (https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/global/iceland-deals-with-growing-delta-outbreak-as-high-vaccination-rates-stop-deaths/news-story/b970a814615715e573d67b3a1c1525f0), News.com.au.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 10, 2021, 09:45:05 am
Sobering data from Iceland: Iceland deals with growing Delta outbreak as high vaccination rates stop deaths (https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/global/iceland-deals-with-growing-delta-outbreak-as-high-vaccination-rates-stop-deaths/news-story/b970a814615715e573d67b3a1c1525f0), News.com.au.
For a small nation Iceland have a very good and modern free health care system. Family friend did a teacher exchange position for 12 months there and said its a very well run country.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 10, 2021, 09:53:37 am
Sobering data from Iceland: Iceland deals with growing Delta outbreak as high vaccination rates stop deaths (https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/global/iceland-deals-with-growing-delta-outbreak-as-high-vaccination-rates-stop-deaths/news-story/b970a814615715e573d67b3a1c1525f0), News.com.au.

Terrific article, thank you Wing Man MAV, very real important information can be easily gleaned from what is happening there.

I've had the thought for a while now that masks will become a part of our lives for some time to come. The apparent dramatic reduction in seasonal the flu suggests the effectiveness of masks and social distancing.

I think most of us know that the vaccinations won't have an enormous impact on transmissiblility (but masks/distancing etc., do) but do have an important impact on severity of symptoms once infected - this was my primary reason for getting vaccinated, to lessen symptoms therefore aiding me to remain working and not ending up a burden on the hospital system.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 10, 2021, 10:46:54 am
The worst of this crap show is yet to come.  Irrespective of vaccinations.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 10, 2021, 11:17:14 am
The worst of this crap show is yet to come.  Irrespective of vaccinations.
Yes no doubt, the issues of long COVID-19 are really just starting, the need for effective treatments should be a priority but it is not getting the political attention it needs. Long COVID-19 has no age barriers.

The two sets of interviews below are worth listening to, they are interviews of doctors in the UK who also happen to be COVID-19 patients, a bit dark in spots but they also have some very positive moments. Twenty somethings should be listening to these stories.

Science Friction Podcast.
The long COVID doctors (Part 1 of 2) (35mins)
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/sciencefriction/long-covid-doctors-patients-uk-symptoms-coronavirus-pandemic/13467564

The long COVID doctors (Part 2 of 2) (32mins)
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/sciencefriction/long-covid-doctors-a-year-on-uk-symptoms-coronavirus-pandemic/13477284
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 10, 2021, 11:24:58 am
The worst of this crap show is yet to come.  Irrespective of vaccinations.

Yep, even with a vaccinated population life isnt going back to normal anytime soon ,as Iceland shows you can still have a lot of sick people in Hospital even if you get low death rates leading to a strain on resources. Opening up Australia for travel etc is still a long way off imho...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 10, 2021, 11:50:30 am
For those of you who wonder why the political and social media war of words relating to efficacy and safety or AZ vs Pfizer, despite there being much evidence for better or safer performance form one or the other.

Pfizer / Moderna reported $9.6B profit for the year just finished.

Pfizer forecast $26B for the coming financial year, then after the various social media and political AZ backlash, Pfizer revised the forecast to $45.6B!

AZ do the vaccine at cost.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 10, 2021, 11:55:09 am
For those of you who wonder why the political and social media war of words relating to efficacy and safety or AZ vs Pfizer, despite there being much evidence for better or safer performance form one or the other.

Pfizer / Moderna reported $9.6B profit for the year just finished.

Pfizer forecast $26B for the coming financial year, then after the various social media and political AZ backlash, Pfizer revised the forecast to $45.6B!

AZ do the vaccine at cost.
AZ are taking profits when the pandemic is under control....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 10, 2021, 12:18:24 pm
AZ are taking profits when the pandemic is under control....
I think they publicly stated they "Reserved the right to take profits once the pandemic was under control", but it's a bit meaningless in the context of what is happening now.

Money is motive$ ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 10, 2021, 12:34:56 pm
For those of you who wonder why the political and social media war of words relating to efficacy and safety or AZ vs Pfizer, despite there being much evidence for better or safer performance form one or the other.

Pfizer / Moderna reported $9.6B profit for the year just finished.

Pfizer forecast $26B for the coming financial year, then after the various social media and political AZ backlash, Pfizer revised the forecast to $45.6B!

AZ do the vaccine at cost.
100% Correct
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on August 10, 2021, 01:12:46 pm
The report from Iceland is sobering -  Vaccination is purely a mitigation strategy.   We're going to have to learn to live with this bastard for a long time yet.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 10, 2021, 01:46:02 pm
The report from Iceland is sobering -  Vaccination is purely a mitigation strategy.  We're going to have to learn to live with this bastard for a long time yet.
Yes, and Iceland has been a Pfizer/Moderna stronghold from the beginning, I think the use of Pfizer vaccine out numbers the others by at least 2:1, with AZ and Janssen also in use.

There may also be genetic diversity components coming into play here, Iceland is often a test case for some disease trials for the reason it has lower genetic diversity and some unique society wide health and wellbeing issues.

In health, one solution never fits all, and before the naysayers get on board, nobody ever claimed it did!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 10, 2021, 02:33:08 pm
Politicians are pissweak in this country.

I've been browsing through some of the argy bargy going down in NSW at the moment, the bureaucrats and politicians are starting to play race and privilege cards as an excuse for not getting a handle on the outbreak sooner. They are basically victim blaming, weakly pointing the finger at the uneducated, welfare dependant English as a second language types in Western Sydney!

These are the same people the greens blame for wasting too much energy because they don't have homes full of $30 LED light bulbs, and use 30 year old electric, gas or oil heaters, and feck up the climate with wood burners and bottled gas. FFS, they still drive, and they do so by using cars which run on petrol or diesel.

Those poor people, can't live with them it seems, better to be a green activist living off annual $150K government arts grants!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 10, 2021, 03:42:10 pm
Politicians are pissweak in this country.

I've been browsing through some of the argy bargy going down in NSW at the moment, the bureaucrats and politicians are starting to play race and privilege cards as an excuse for not getting a handle on the outbreak sooner. They are basically victim blaming, weakly pointing the finger at the uneducated, welfare dependant English as a second language types in Western Sydney!

These are the same people the greens blame for wasting too much energy because they don't have homes full of $30 LED light bulbs, and use 30 year old electric, gas or oil heaters, and feck up the climate with wood burners and bottled gas. FFS, they still drive, and they do so by using cars which run on petrol or diesel.

Those poor people, can't live with them it seems, better to be a green activist living off annual $150K government arts grants!

Without wanting to go over old ground, we did similar last year with certain communities and the lock down responses.

I have also seen some people comment this year about our recent outbreak, and certain cultural traditions.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 10, 2021, 04:48:20 pm
100% Correct
I think they publicly stated they "Reserved the right to take profits once the pandemic was under control", but it's a bit meaningless in the context of what is happening now.

Money is motive$ ;D
....Novavax I believe are struggling with Production and there are rumors the USA Govt have pulled funding on them but also talk Pfizer have been pressuring the Govt for that money as well as they have the largest Production setup and want to get the Monopoly on vaccines world wide.
Pfizer will do anything to make some coin and are always in court defending their products and dodgy business tactics...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 10, 2021, 11:09:16 pm
How anti-vaxxers weaponized Ivermectin, a horse de-wormer drug, as a COVID-19 treatment (https://www.salon.com/2021/08/09/how-anti-vaxxers-weaponized-and-promoted-ivermectin-a-horse-de-wormer-drug-as-a-covid-19-treatment/)
Quote
According to Dr. Amesh Adalja, a senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins Center, the right-wing obsession with Ivermectin may be important to that demographic merely because it sows distrust in science in general while stirring up vaccine skepticism.

"Politics got injected into it, and then Ivermectin became a crusade for certain individuals, as a way to kind of deflect the importance of the vaccine," Adalja told Salon. "It's the same kind of story of the politics of this pandemic that's driven a lot of the interest in Ivermectin — and when I do interviews on ivermectin I get a slew of hate mail."

...

"There's no evidence that Ivermectin has a beneficial effect in treating COVID-19," Adalja said. "Studies that are there are of poor quality, none of which really has an unequivocally positive result. One of the studies which was touted to provide the most evidence has been shown to be invalid study."

...

Imran Ahmed, CEO of Center for Countering Digital Hate, said that promoting the idea that treatments like Ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine can treat COVID-19 fall into one of three categories of misinformation promoted by anti-vaccine influencers. The three misinformation categories, Ahmed said, include "COVID isn't dangerous," "vaccines are dangerous," and the idea that you "can't trust doctors."

"This is all part of the spreading of the idea that vaccines might not be the safest way of dealing with this," Ahmed said.[It's part of] 'the government's trying to kill you with a vaccine,' and blah, blah. It's an extremist narrative."
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 11, 2021, 11:30:59 am
Gladys is going to open things up at 70% vaccinated, and then she will blame the failure of the vaccines for the hell she unleashes across NSW and Australia.

It is so obvious the message may as well be tattooed on her forehead!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 11, 2021, 11:43:56 am
If you’re playing SimCity and your current settings aren’t reducing a negative trend, don’t you change the settings? I guess that’s only a computer game, though. In real life, you can apparently do nothing and expect a miracle.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 11, 2021, 12:26:38 pm
Anyone living in the West might want to note that Western Health is down about 250 staff and not accepting patients in ER at Sunshine/Footscray Hospital. Same thing happened at Frankston last year when they had a CoVid outbreak amongst staff and its very hard to get agency staff to want to work in those situations.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 11, 2021, 04:25:17 pm
Anyone living in the West might want to note that Western Health is down about 250 staff and not accepting patients in ER at Sunshine/Footscray Hospital. Same thing happened at Frankston last year when they had a CoVid outbreak amongst staff and its very hard to get agency staff to want to work in those situations.


There are two more hospital networks with positive doctorss not getting much of a media go.  One is the royal childrens hospital, and the other is a private hospital.  The Irony, is that the private hospitals Doctor, has apparently been very outspoken on his vaccination status and not pro.

I dare say no more on public forum.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 11, 2021, 05:01:19 pm
Just 1 point of clarification. The RCH doctor wasn't in RCH while infectious. He was in the annex to the RCH where doctors have private rooms. It has a separate entrance and lifts. But it shares common areas with the RCH, so this is of debatable significance. I've been their with my son. When you leave the private rooms and go down in the lift to the lobby, you either head out the exit or you can go in the opposite direction and there's a long walkway with shops and cafes. If you reach the other end of the walkway, you're at the RCH. So, he might not have gone into the RCH himself but he could easily have infected those who were heading there. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 11, 2021, 05:49:18 pm
Just 1 point of clarification. The RCH doctor wasn't in RCH while infectious. He was in the annex to the RCH where doctors have private rooms. It has a separate entrance and lifts. But it shares common areas with the RCH, so this is of debatable significance. I've been their with my son. When you leave the private rooms and go down in the lift to the lobby, you either head out the exit or you can go in the opposite direction and there's a long walkway with shops and cafes. If you reach the other end of the walkway, you're at the RCH. So, he might not have gone into the RCH himself but he could easily have infected those who were heading there. 

You have to go through a full on check in process to get into the wards now. My 4 year old son was in there a couple of months ago and my wife had to go downstairs each day to line up to get a new sticker.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 12, 2021, 02:56:56 pm
Gladys hard at work!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnVPmPznQVg
Nothing but net!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 12, 2021, 04:17:34 pm
You have to go through a full on check in process to get into the wards now. My 4 year old son was in there a couple of months ago and my wife had to go downstairs each day to line up to get a new sticker.
I hope all is well with your boy MBB.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 12, 2021, 04:28:06 pm
I hope all is well with your boy MBB.

x2
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 12, 2021, 05:21:28 pm
You have to go through a full on check in process to get into the wards now. My 4 year old son was in there a couple of months ago and my wife had to go downstairs each day to line up to get a new sticker.

My heart goes out to you, your missus and little boy, MBB.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 12, 2021, 07:12:53 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/astrazeneca-lead-scientist-says-delta-makes-mass-testing-pointless-in-uk-20210811-p58hpe.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 12, 2021, 09:15:33 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/astrazeneca-lead-scientist-says-delta-makes-mass-testing-pointless-in-uk-20210811-p58hpe.html

One of my early points that counting cases is not really important if there aren't many getting sick,  HOWEVER I did speak to my contact at work who tested positive today and one year on she still suffers from shortness of breathe and also still has weird smells that aren't existing (the egg like unleaded smell that cars emit sometimes).

We still have a lot to learn about covid but we probably should worry more about clinical impacts rather than cold like symptoms.

Its a real lose lose argument.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 14, 2021, 04:01:10 pm
Wowza, the two main papers that supported the use of Ivermectin and HCQ have found to be faked.

While looking at a meta-analysis study a UK researcher discovered that firstly many of the studies repeat identical sentences, thinking that it was an indication of plagiarism he engaged support from a group of IT specialists to perform a deep data analysis of all the papers.

What they then found was very alarming, hundreds of trial patients having identical patient data, identical age, size, weight, blood count, viral load, this is statistically impossible. It's like finding a hundred identical twins spread around the globe, centuplets! :o

This prompted them to look into it further, of course guess what they found, many of the participating patients listed in the trial, as having consented to be part of the trial, had actually died before the trials for Ivermectin and HCQ had even started!

The authors of the original papers stated, "We've done nothing wrong!", .............. it seems except plagiarism and fraud! :o

Why am I not surprised! ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 14, 2021, 06:58:46 pm
Flyboy doesn’t care about academic and scientific fraud. He’ll say it’s just swiping at the man. He had no problem with that guy Dr Cole who made sensational claims and “supported” them by misrepresenting actual scientists’ work.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 14, 2021, 10:11:29 pm
The Ivermectin push does seem to be just a figleaf for antivaxxers. The big tell is that those who push it also claim vaccines are dangerous and ineffective. I could understand if proponents of Ivermectin argued that vaccines are a great first-line of defence but when infections occur more treatments are needed.

I have no problems with existing medications being trialled to see if they might give doctors another option. I don’t have a “vaccine or nothing” mentality. Steroids have proved of some use in about a third of cases. If it works, great. But one of the attractions of using pre-existing drugs at their usual dosage is that their contraindications and side-effects are known. But if the dosage is substantially increased in order to work against Covid, new safety trials are required and can only be justified if there is enough evidence that the drug will work at reasonably safe levels. Claims Ivermectin kills Covid in Petri dishes seems to be a long way from proving this. And it seems the initial testing involved high doses:

Quote
The initial lab studies into ivermectin’s effect on the coronavirus involved very high concentrations of the drug. These were many times higher than can be achieved in the body at doses recommended to treat parasites.
https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/what-now-for-ivermectin (https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/what-now-for-ivermectin)

And the above article suggests later studies have concluded it’s not effective.

In any event, the University of Oxford was to start a trial in June, so we’ll have some decent data at the end of it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 15, 2021, 05:15:32 pm
About time some of these idiot law breakers were hit with huge fines.  I'd have doubled them to $10,000.  $50,000 for anyone from extinction rebellion
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 15, 2021, 05:20:16 pm
About time some of these idiot law breakers were hit with huge fines.  I'd have doubled them to $10,000.  $50,000 for anyone from extinction rebellion

I would just fine everyone the same whether they're protesting, getting pissed outside pubs or celebrating ramadan.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 15, 2021, 05:42:01 pm
Agreed. There should also be Govt ads emphasising what's not permitted in the current lockdown. Not that anyone really is ignorant but those ads would strip away the "I didn't know - I thought supervising my kids at the park so they could exercise meant I was allowed to bring down the picnic equipment and an esky and have a BBQ with a dozen friends". And the pub one is an easy one to shut down: the police can fine anyone drinking in the streets IIRC.   

I also love the "Walking at 1 km/h and stopping frequently to chat with people I know for 10 minutes is such vigorous exercise that I can't be expected to wear a mask". Or the "I'm carrying an empty coffee cup, so I qualify for the 'drinking or eating' exemption". And I wasn't aware there was a "talking into your mobile phone (or rather, shouting into it)" exemption
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on August 15, 2021, 06:14:27 pm
And the pub one is an easy one to shut down: the police can fine anyone drinking in the streets IIRC.   

All those outlets providing 'takeaway' liquor in cups are breaching their red line plan anyway. You have never been allowed to do that pre-covid. All should be fined by liquor licensing. If they are providing packaged liquor they know will be consumed in the street, then they shouldn't be doing it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on August 16, 2021, 07:43:50 am
Half of Melbourne took advantage of the nice weather this weekend to have a jolly down the Bellarine.   This "lock down" is an utter joke.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 16, 2021, 08:59:47 am
As NSW has shown, if you have a half-arsed lockdown, you get half-arsed results.

It’s not enough to have a strict lockdown on paper. It needs to be enforced. The police might be front and centre at lockdown protests but they’re invisible elsewhere. It doesn’t take Sherlock Holmes to track down the obvious breaches of lockdown rules but it seems the police turn a blind eye to them. And when something like the St Kilda engagement party comes to light, all the attendees probably escape any action because the contact tracers need their cooperation.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 16, 2021, 09:01:23 am
Half of Melbourne took advantage of the nice weather this weekend to have a jolly down the Bellarine.   This "lock down" is an utter joke.
HS showing people crammed into a house holding an engagement party. We are just as bad as NSW.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 16, 2021, 09:25:17 am
The Ivermectin push does seem to be just a figleaf for antivaxxers. The big tell is that those who push it also claim vaccines are dangerous and ineffective. I could understand if proponents of Ivermectin argued that vaccines are a great first-line of defence but when infections occur more treatments are needed.

I have no problems with existing medications being trialled to see if they might give doctors another option. I don’t have a “vaccine or nothing” mentality. Steroids have proved of some use in about a third of cases. If it works, great. But one of the attractions of using pre-existing drugs at their usual dosage is that their contraindications and side-effects are known. But if the dosage is substantially increased in order to work against Covid, new safety trials are required and can only be justified if there is enough evidence that the drug will work at reasonably safe levels. Claims Ivermectin kills Covid in Petri dishes seems to be a long way from proving this. And it seems the initial testing involved high doses:
https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/what-now-for-ivermectin (https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/what-now-for-ivermectin)

And the above article suggests later studies have concluded it’s not effective.

In any event, the University of Oxford was to start a trial in June, so we’ll have some decent data at the end of it.

Have you looked at any of the studies?

c19ivermectin.com

https://bird-group.org/health-professionals-resources/

Far better studied, tested and understood than any of the current vaccines. Terrific safety profile too.

Oh, haven't heard of Professor Borody?

Another conspiracy nutter?

The world knew in March 2020 (earlier actually), Ivermectin kills 99.98% of SARS-COV2 in vitro....after that crickets from the regulatory authorities. I wonder why.

https://covexit.com/australian-gps-can-legally-prescribe-ivermectin-triple-therapy-protocol-professor-borody/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 16, 2021, 09:37:30 am
I’m sure if you splashed hydrochloric acid over the Covid virus in a Petri dish, those suckers wouldn’t last long. In fact, if you put a Covid patient into a hydrochloric acid bath, that would kill the virus too.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 16, 2021, 10:16:07 am
I’m sure if you splashed hydrochloric acid over the Covid virus in a Petri dish, those suckers wouldn’t last long. In fact, if you put a Covid patient into a hydrochloric acid bath, that would kill the virus too.
And it seems the initial testing involved high doses:
A bit of an understatement.

A recent Nature article suggests that not only were the results unreproducible as part of a number of replication studies, the dose of the horse worming drug Ivermectin was so so high that if you administered it to the general public you would destroy the kidneys of a large percentage of patients! They mentioned that the dose used which produced sporadic results in a petri dish was hundreds of times the normal dose.

Anyway, they already know that if you administer Ivermectin to millions of patients, even at the normal dose levels, you will end up with hundreds of hospitalisations per million from Ivermectin side-effects with some of those people ultimately requiring life long dialysis.

Ivermectin, which is neither a treatment or a prophylactic for Sars-CoV-2, is just touted by COVID-19 sceptics as part of a rock throwing exercise.

FYI, feedback on the main major Ivermectin study used to boost it's efficacy;
Quote
“The authors claimed they conducted the study between the 8th of June and 20th of September 2020, however most of the patients who died were admitted into hospital and died before the 8th of June according to the raw data. The data was also terribly formatted, and includes one patient who left hospital on the non-existent date of 31/06/2020.”

There were other concerns.
“In their paper, the authors claim that four out of 100 patients died in their standard treatment group for mild and moderate Covid-19,” Lawrence said. “According to the original data the number was 0, the same as the ivermectin treatment group. In their ivermectin treatment group for severe Covid-19, the authors claim two patients died, but the number in their raw data is four.”
So they are caught out manipulating the data and patient records to make Ivermectin look good! Of course to lay people 2 or 4 doesn't sound like much, but the study was so small that 2 or 4 is all the deaths that occurred in the study group, so erasing a couple deaths here or adding a couple of survivors there results in a +50% improvement!

When the raw data was re-analysed with out the manipulated figures, the results matched closely with all the replication studies, and that finding is patients in the Ivermectin trial survived or perished by chance!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 16, 2021, 11:04:25 am
Without digging too deeply into stats, numbers or what not, I can categorically state that people i know are all experiencing lockdown fatigue on some level and a lot of them are really struggling with this now.

Its very easy to sit there and state "do the right thing" when the right thing is very much putting lives on hold for a lengthy period of time, all to stop the spread in a group of people who seem determined to do the exact opposite. 

I dont have the answers, but I post this here to try and get some people to exercise even one modicum of human emotion/empathy rather than sitting on their high horse, telling the world how their dictatorship should run.

I watched EPL with full crowds over the weekend.  Are we sure we are getting this approach correct?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 16, 2021, 11:10:03 am
But the beauty of submitting fraudulent studies is that their retraction or rejection down the track leaves meta-analysis studies which incorporated those studies standing. So, skewing the meta-analysis studies by fraudulent BS allows the BS artists to cite good faith meta-analyses and medical/scientific opinions based upon them to support their arguments down the track. This is yet another Trump-style tactic such as when he was trying to strong-arm the DOJ to "Just say that the election was corrupt & leave the rest to me". You just need a figleaf to hide your fraudulent manipulations.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 16, 2021, 11:22:43 am
Rumour is the curfew is coming back.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 16, 2021, 11:26:34 am
Rumour is the curfew is coming back.
I'm moving to Italy
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 16, 2021, 11:33:26 am
Yep, heard that rumour too. I couldn't give a feck about empathising with those who break a law that's trying to keep people healthy. Just follow the damn law. By the way, I just love that we need to empathise with scofflaws when there's zero empathy shown by some towards those who take a knee or refuse to stand during the national anthem (which is no crime at all) as a protest against racism.

The only way to avoid lockdowns in the near future is to try to stamp out Covid. Suppression rather than elimination is a fine theory but as NSW has shown it's not possible to keep new case numbers stable once you have it in the community. You need to resort to harsher lockdowns/restrictions to avoid it growing exponentially. And if people want to blow off restrictions because they're too important to be part of community action for the common good, then the restrictions will only grow more invasive. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on August 16, 2021, 11:54:48 am
I knew it was coming, 3 day lockdown in Darwin and top end NT.
Guy released from NSW quarantine, passed through Canberra enroute  to Darwin has tested positive.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 16, 2021, 11:56:39 am
If you were a cynic, you'd wonder whether NSW is deliberately exporting Covid to avoid being isolated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 16, 2021, 11:58:40 am
You can't put an old head on the young shoulders who think they're immune ... baseball bats.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 16, 2021, 12:03:33 pm
A 9pm to 5am curfew in Melbourne metro area being talked about according to news report on 3AW.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 16, 2021, 12:06:09 pm
Yep, heard that rumour too. I couldn't give a feck about empathising with those who break a law that's trying to keep people healthy. Just follow the damn law. By the way, I just love that we need to empathise with scofflaws when there's zero empathy shown by some towards those who take a knee or refuse to stand during the national anthem (which is no crime at all) as a protest against racism.

The only way to avoid lockdowns in the near future is to try to stamp out Covid. Suppression rather than elimination is a fine theory but as NSW has shown it's not possible to keep new case numbers stable once you have it in the community. You need to resort to harsher lockdowns/restrictions to avoid it growing exponentially. And if people want to blow off restrictions because they're too important to be part of community action for the common good, then the restrictions will only grow more invasive. 

This is why people like you are dangerous.

You are the type that would go around dobbing people in, in nazi germany "because they aint following the rules" only to find out, that the people harbouring Jews knew they were going to get killed, so risked their own lives to save them. 

Lockdowns are here to stay, as per Mark McGowans statements regarding 0 tolerance to covid approach with or without 80% vaccination.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 16, 2021, 12:35:33 pm
No, you're exactly the type to have dobbed in the Jews. My oh my, you would have hated how they separated themselves from the rest of the community, just like indigenous Australians. They shouldn't get any protection until someone tracks down those 2 people who insulted you about your Greek heritage.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 16, 2021, 12:39:40 pm
The NSW premier just said even if they had 80% vaccination we would still have restrictions with 400 cases a day.
We are going to be locked up for a long time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 16, 2021, 12:43:29 pm
Curfew back, playgrounds closed, work permits required. For 20 cases a day. Dictator Dan is back!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 16, 2021, 12:45:32 pm
No, it's because of 600 cases a day or worse. That's how exponential growth works.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 16, 2021, 12:47:04 pm
Curfew back, playgrounds closed, work permits required. For 20 cases a day. Dictator Dan is back!
Do we know when work permit requirements start?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 16, 2021, 12:48:24 pm
Thry and Mav could you please call a halt to your current discourse as it seems to be going down a dangerous and distasteful path that does not belong on this forum.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 16, 2021, 12:48:38 pm
11.59pm tomorrow night whereas other restrictions come into force 11.59pm tonight.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 16, 2021, 12:49:37 pm
Thry and Mav could you please call a halt to your current discourse as it seems to be going down a dangerous and distasteful path that does not belong on this forum.
Yep, invoking the Holocaust is a pretty despicable low.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 16, 2021, 12:53:24 pm
Do we know when work permit requirements start?

Not sure but Dan is going to punish hard working Victorians because they couldn't control a couple of hundred pub crawlers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 16, 2021, 12:56:51 pm
Surely you saw this happening in your local area. I certainly did. The new rules pretty much address what I was observing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 16, 2021, 12:58:42 pm
The question, though, is whether the police will bother to enforce them. Not much point making those rules if people openly flout them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on August 16, 2021, 01:04:19 pm
So the many pay for the few.   Getting close to over it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 16, 2021, 01:11:34 pm
I wish it were the few. It may be that the few were initially a few, but many followed their lead when they saw that "everybody is doing it". 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 16, 2021, 01:25:00 pm
So kids can't go to school, play outside but 40 blokes can get together each week tackling each other?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on August 16, 2021, 01:28:30 pm
So the many pay for the few.   Getting close to over it.

You're not on your own mate.

Instead of conceding that maybe we need to look at other options to control this Dan and his oversized ego wont let him do it. He was waiting patiently for the minute he had an opportunity to point the finger a someone else and use that event to enforce toughen more barbaric restrictions - he pulled the trigger without a second delay without a minute concern care empathy on what these further restrictions are going to do to 99% of the law abiding population who have had enough.  

Too many are obsessed with Covid and 'number of cases' against the number the of actual deaths that pandemic is producing in our country all while ignoring the severe effect these over the top restrictions are having on millions of victorians.

We have decimated small business, mental illness in the younger groups is out of control, and mark my words thousands more will die from serious illnesses like cancers, heart disease etc as early detection and proper management is impossible in these crazy times.

    
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on August 16, 2021, 01:33:35 pm
The NSW premier just said even if they had 80% vaccination we would still have restrictions with 400 cases a day.
We are going to be locked up for a long time.

At least she's honest on that point.

Dictator Dan alludes to us being able to roam free once we hit the magical 80% mark.

Kidding our self.   
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 16, 2021, 01:43:28 pm
So kids can't go to school, play outside but 40 blokes can get together each week tackling each other?
As a Carlton supporter, I'm very much in favour of stopping AFL games.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on August 16, 2021, 01:51:11 pm
Yep.  And as Thry pointed out, these lockdowns are becoming much harder to cope with - his feedback from friends and colleagues is much the same as mine.

It is an abject failure of our politicians - particularly Feds.  National Cabinet is a ruse to deflect responsibility from Feds and force it to the states.  This is only going to have the states go political for their own survival - which they have done, to the detriment of the country.  The bun fight is ludicrous.  I don't care who is responsible (ultimately) for quarantine or securing vaccines.  Just get it done.  Don't market it, don't grandstand, just do it.  Be consistent, show us that the country is working together and give us solutions.

What is it that we have to do to 'learn to live with it'?  Wear masks - half the pickles don't anyway.  Socially distance - half the pickles don't anyway.  Restrict some elements of movement - half the pickles don't anyway.  How did Delta get to Vic?  Pickles in NSW that didn't do the right thing.  They are only randomly enforceable laws.

I'm jack of it - yet I'm also very lucky - I haven't suffered any financial set back, haven't lost any work or reduced hours (they have actually increased significantly, but I don't bill the extra).  I have lost some social contact, but that doesn't phase me too much.  The kids are starting to suffer from losing the social contact and extra curricular activities, the Mrs is taking 1/2 days annual leave, so she can help with school.  My full sympathies go to those that are suffering mentally, socially and financially.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on August 16, 2021, 01:51:44 pm
The original messaging was "we have to lock down to protect the vulnerable".  When I hear about residents of retirement villages etc refusing vaccines I start to query what's the point of lock down.   Sorry Dan, the messaging ain't working for me.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 16, 2021, 03:26:03 pm
Greed comes to the forefront again.  People waiting for a possible $300 handout (thanks Albanese for sowing that seed of uncertainty you idiot) and those that simply won't accept a vaccine.  Dumb as.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 16, 2021, 04:03:42 pm
The NSW premier just said even if they had 80% vaccination we would still have restrictions with 400 cases a day.
We are going to be locked up for a long time.
NSW are in all sorts of shizen, her announcement is about softening the coming blows, within the next week or two there is a better than 50/50 chance they'll be wishing they still had only 400 a day!

I heard a Sydney based Doc on the radio today saying the metro ICU's are just about cooked, not just because of patient numbers, but because they have so so many staff unavailable in isolation, with the remainder working OT double and triple shifts. He said it can't continue, and if the public don't break from it's hell bent track then the health system will break!

It's quite hard to get hold of confirmed NSW stats, I have no idea why, they seem to guard everything making it very hard to cross check those claims!

This is exactly a consequence of not locking down early enough or hard enough, and as a result the @Thryleon predictions about things getting much much worse for the health sector before they get better will likely come true!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 16, 2021, 05:15:33 pm
NSW are in all sorts of shizen, her announcement is about softening the coming blows, within the next week or two there is a better than 50/50 chance they'll be wishing they still had only 400 a day!

I heard a Sydney based Doc on the radio today saying the metro ICU's are just about cooked, not just because of patient numbers, but because they have so so many staff unavailable in isolation, with the remainder working OT double and triple shifts. He said it can't continue, and if the public don't break from it's hell bent track then the health system will break!

It's quite hard to get hold of confirmed NSW stats, I have no idea why, they seem to guard everything making it very hard to cross check those claims!

This is exactly a consequence of not locking down early enough or hard enough, and as a result the @Thryleon predictions about things getting much much worse for the health sector before they get better will likely come true!
Thry is right about getting worse, Frankston Hospital had a lot of staff infected last year at the peak and had to go on bypass, close wards etc but those stats wont make the news, same this year with Western health at Sunshine Footscray as I remarked before.
One of the problems with ICU staff is they take a while to train up, you just cant pick nurses up off any ward and dump them in ICU and expect them to do the job properly...you can have the beds and equipment but you get staff sick/infected and then you dont have many backups in those specialty areas.
Pandemics quickly highlight the gaps in the healthcare system and the lack of resources, State Premier's and the Fed Government need to fund the building of more hospitals, train and pay specialist staff properly and stop relying on the good nature of these caregivers to save the day. Ditto for Paramedics....they found money to increase the drug testing of these life savers but cant be bothered fixing the problems in the system which lead to the mental breakdowns and staff leaving the job..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 16, 2021, 05:39:52 pm
McGowan is determined to isolate WA.  Lot of tit for tat at the moment.  But is this gets outta hand in remote western NSW communities, Berejiklian will really have a problem.

And she knows it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 16, 2021, 06:06:39 pm
Thry is right about getting worse, Frankston Hospital had a lot of staff infected last year at the peak and had to go on bypass, close wards etc but those stats wont make the news, same this year with Western health at Sunshine Footscray as I remarked before.
I saw a news item about that after your post, so were 100% on the money. Sadly, that gives credibility to your other observations.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 16, 2021, 06:38:19 pm
I saw a news item about that after your post, so were 100% on the money. Sadly, that gives credibility to your other observations.
It is sad the people who staff our hospitals are some of the best in the world but funding and administration of the system is crippled by politics, unfortunately the poorer areas in the West in both Melbourne and Sydney get the scraps,  yet are usually the ones with the highest need and in this case the area with the highest infections rates and lowest take up of vaccinations.
You then get these party pub crawl fwits who want to defy the law, create more infections and drain more resources....same drunk clowns beat up on paramedics, attack nurses then they leave the system or turn to addictive solutions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 16, 2021, 07:32:52 pm
If we'd have slapped on $5000 fines from day one, the message might have got through to most of these bastards.  Just like we should at airports with lying foreigners on Border control.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 16, 2021, 08:04:04 pm
If we'd have slapped on $5000 fines from day one, the message might have got through to most of these bastards.  Just like we should at airports with lying foreigners on Border control.


>:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 16, 2021, 08:20:22 pm
>:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(

At me?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 16, 2021, 08:58:11 pm
Thry is right about getting worse, Frankston Hospital had a lot of staff infected last year at the peak and had to go on bypass, close wards etc but those stats wont make the news, same this year with Western health at Sunshine Footscray as I remarked before.
One of the problems with ICU staff is they take a while to train up, you just cant pick nurses up off any ward and dump them in ICU and expect them to do the job properly...you can have the beds and equipment but you get staff sick/infected and then you dont have many backups in those specialty areas.
Pandemics quickly highlight the gaps in the healthcare system and the lack of resources, State Premier's and the Fed Government need to fund the building of more hospitals, train and pay specialist staff properly and stop relying on the good nature of these caregivers to save the day. Ditto for Paramedics....they found money to increase the drug testing of these life savers but cant be bothered fixing the problems in the system which lead to the mental breakdowns and staff leaving the job..

I spoke to a bloke at work today which i've known for years, but only see occasionally. He had Covid. He said it took him 5 months to actually get over. No hospital stay required, but knocked him about pretty bad. He'd be late 40's and in decent shape.

He caught it from his wife who is a nurse....and caught it with plenty of other people through contact with Covid positive patients.
I'm not sure what hospital his wife works at but he works out of bayswater and i know he's further out of the CBD than that. Chances are, she works at Frankston hospital. Plenty of nurses and doctors got it at the same time.

I remember reading such stuff on here, but i don't recall hearing about it in the media.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 16, 2021, 09:32:44 pm
I spoke to a bloke at work today which i've known for years, but only see occasionally. He had Covid. He said it took him 5 months to actually get over. No hospital stay required, but knocked him about pretty bad. He'd be late 40's and in decent shape.

He caught it from his wife who is a nurse....and caught it with plenty of other people through contact with Covid positive patients.
I'm not sure what hospital his wife works at but he works out of bayswater and i know he's further out of the CBD than that. Chances are, she works at Frankston hospital. Plenty of nurses and doctors got it at the same time.

I remember reading such stuff on here, but i don't recall hearing about it in the media.
Yep, a lot of stuff doesnt make the media, my daughter lives out West and doesnt even bother with Sunshine Hospital, goes straight into the City for the Royal Womens or Royal Melbourne.
She wants to start a family next year but isnt happy with being in the Sunshine hospital zone and wants to move....its not the Hospital as such it just the lack of staff and overcrowding in ER etc. One Public Hospital serving such a large growing area is a disgrace and when the ER is full you have a mile long line of people waiting.
Its like the Police where she lives...you make a call after 8pm and they arrive half an hour later as there is no local manned station after a certain time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 16, 2021, 10:33:37 pm
Yep, a lot of stuff doesnt make the media, my daughter lives out West and doesnt even bother with Sunshine Hospital, goes straight into the City for the Royal Womens or Royal Melbourne.
She wants to start a family next year but isnt happy with being in the Sunshine hospital zone and wants to move....its not the Hospital as such it just the lack of staff and overcrowding in ER etc. One Public Hospital serving such a large growing area is a disgrace and when the ER is full you have a mile long line of people waiting.
Its like the Police where she lives...you make a call after 8pm and they arrive half an hour later as there is no local manned station after a certain time.

Well said, EB1.

Disgrace is a good and appropriate word.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 17, 2021, 03:35:52 am
Well it’s 3:30 am and I can’t sleep, just pondering zero covid, the new lockdown and curfew, the latest world events and wondering where all of this stuff is leading us. A lot seems to rest on the vaccination program.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on August 17, 2021, 03:57:04 am
Well it’s 3:30 am and I can’t sleep, just pondering zero covid, the new lockdown and curfew, the latest world events and wondering where all of this stuff is leading us. A lot seems to rest on the vaccination program.

Israel thought that at one time. Now it's booster shots. We do live in interesting times.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 17, 2021, 07:57:19 am
Well it’s 3:30 am and I can’t sleep, just pondering zero covid, the new lockdown and curfew, the latest world events and wondering where all of this stuff is leading us. A lot seems to rest on the vaccination program.
It's not healthy to think about these things at 3am, I know I do it too!

In fairness to the experts, I'm not sure I've ever heard a real expert claim extinction is a possibility, at least as things stand at the moment. In fact I'd say experts now state the exact opposite, extinction is impossible. The real experts called for early action, some of the experts have been calling for preparative action for almost two decades, and politicians vacillated, then when the virus hit and spread when it was way too late to go for extinction, long after the virus had become endemic and part of our genome, the politicians then called for extinction, ironic isn't the right word!

Zero COVID will be learning to live with Sars-CoV_2, and the next version of Sars, learning to manage them and it, Sars, Sars-CoV-2 and the next are now part of our evolution! After all, it seems much of our very DNA is a collection of virus fragments.

We hate lockdowns, but the lockdowns aren't about extinction, they buy time, time needed by experts to make sure our loved ones are not the price paid for the freedom of everyone!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 17, 2021, 10:01:48 am
Imagine how the CMOs are sleeping now, Cookie.

When we had zero Covid, we were in the eye of the hurricane. It was pretty sweet. Now, the hurricane is moving and the eye of the storm is moving away from us rapidly, no matter how much we chase it.

The business/cafe/restaurant/pub owners will finally get the certainty they've craved. No more cycles of going into lockdown and coming out of it, rinse & repeat. The bad news is that the constant solution is now going to be permanent lockdowns or restrictions until vaccination rates approach 80%. That'll take months. I think the owners will look back on the cycle of closings & re-openings as the good ol' days.

What is the alternative? As EB has pointed out, the health system is starting to fail even though Victoria only has 20 odd new cases a day. So how is it going to cope when we have around 500 cases as in NSW?

"Letting it rip" will cause carnage. You can guarantee all the people who quaffed wine in the parks a few days ago and who are now whingeing about mental fatigue will be screaming for action once we again have reports of people being turned away from hospital to die at home or refrigerator trucks being used to store the dead. When one of their wine-guaffing mates or, worse, his or her child, dies of Covid, they'll be looking for someone to blame and it won't be their circle of friends.   
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 17, 2021, 10:23:43 am
@LP and Mav
Hear what you are saying guys and I would hate to be a CMO right now. I acknowledge that we are in a fight and that measures are tough but probably reasonable under the circumstances. My main deep fear is of getting back our freedoms when we reach whatever Covid normal turns out to be, as deemed by government.

The world order "coincidentally" is in a state of flux. Where will all of this leave us and our children  and their children? Plenty of food for thought and I tend to be a bit of a ruminator by nature.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 17, 2021, 10:26:37 am
The world order "coincidentally" is in a state of flux. Where will all of this leave us and our children  and their children? Plenty of food for thought and I tend to be a bit of a ruminator by nature.
COVID cutting free presents vast almost limitless opportunities for Clark Kent's and Charlatans.

I wonder if COVID wasn't out and about would the current situation in Afghanistan be different? How you answer that then raises a further question, what happens when COVID is past?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 17, 2021, 10:31:38 am
COVID cutting free presents vast almost limitless opportunities for Clark Kent's and Charlatans.

I wonder if COVID wasn't out and about would the current situation in Afghanistan be different? How you answer that then raises a further question, what happens when COVID is past?

Assuming of course that Covid ever becomes "past"?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 17, 2021, 10:33:45 am
Assuming of course that Covid ever becomes "past"?

Covid will eventually move out of the public eye, and just become a part of the viral background hum, like all the others. Nobody knows how long it will take, but we'll get there.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 17, 2021, 10:35:15 am
Covid will eventually move out of the public eye, and just become a part of the viral background hum, like all the others. Nobody knows how long it will take, but we'll get there.

Hope you're right Paul.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 17, 2021, 10:36:39 am
Assuming of course that Covid ever becomes "past"?
True, it may never be 100% past, but I'm certain in the future it will be moderated in some form or another.

There is a problem that strikes to the heart of democracy and it's war on oppressive regimes. Some do not value life to the same degree as does a smaller Western democracy like our own. There are some who may just view the toll of COVID, even if it counts into the millions, as the required collateral damage needed to win the wider philosophical war!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 17, 2021, 10:38:31 am
Hope you're right Paul.

It will definitely happen - our body's ability to adapt to viruses is historically and scientifically proven. It's just a matter of time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 17, 2021, 10:42:07 am
True, it may never be 100% past, but I'm certain in the future it will be moderated in some form or another.

There is a problem that strikes to the heart of democracy and it's war on oppressive regimes. Some do not value life to the same degree as does a smaller Western democracy like our own. There are some who may just view the toll of COVID, even if it counts into the millions, as the required collateral damage needed to win the wider philosophical war!

We are seeing the US now less willing to be involved in such struggles and its main concerns focussing on China and the Pacific. How that may affect us remains to unfold.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 17, 2021, 10:44:51 am
I share your concern over the effect of Covid on the political level. But I'm less concerned about the Government trying to use Covid as a means of manipulating the populace as in 1984 where the 3 large states would shift allegiances so they could keep their populations on a permanent war footing.

My concern is that the anti-Lockdown, anti-Masker & anti-Vaxxer campaigns will be used by the far right to gain ground: Political ambitions and anti-lockdown protests: How neo-Nazis seek to spread influence (https://www.theage.com.au/national/political-ambitions-and-anti-lockdown-protests-how-neo-nazis-seek-to-spread-influence-20210813-p58imf.html), The Age.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 17, 2021, 10:49:36 am
Covid will eventually move out of the public eye, and just become a part of the viral background hum, like all the others. Nobody knows how long it will take, but we'll get there.

We'll soon see the fatalities cross 5 million ... like hell it will.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 17, 2021, 10:54:58 am
I share your concern over the effect of Covid on the political level. But I'm less concerned about the Government trying to use Covid as a means of manipulating the populace as in 1984 where the 3 large states would shift allegiances so they could keep their populations on a permanent war footing.

My concern is that the anti-Lockdown, anti-Masker & anti-Vaxxer campaigns will be used by the far right to gain ground: Political ambitions and anti-lockdown protests: How neo-Nazis seek to spread influence (https://www.theage.com.au/national/political-ambitions-and-anti-lockdown-protests-how-neo-nazis-seek-to-spread-influence-20210813-p58imf.html), The Age.

I tend not to be so concerned about the far right as I believe that we, and I mean the West, has an ingrained repulsion to it, memories of relatively recent experiences. A good example of this would be France where despite a very strong push Le Pen just cannot get the required traction.  I believe some people here flirt with some of their rhetoric but overall the true far right would be a long way from ever gaining serious power. Of course we always need to guard against wolves in sheep's clothing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 17, 2021, 10:58:45 am
We are seeing the US now less willing to be involved in such struggles and its main concerns focussing on China and the Pacific. How that may affect us remains to unfold.
Biden screwed up Afghanistan by pulling all the troops out knowing the Afghan Army were hopeless and the Taliban would just walk in without firing a shot and take over.
5 weeks ago he said it was unlikely the Taliban would make any attempt to sieze control.
The Chinese must be thinking it could be time to make a move too..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 17, 2021, 10:59:37 am
Remember, Trump took the US down the isolationist, America-First path well before Covid. But Covid will no doubt strain resources and lead to a more selfish world view. The US really should have been taking advantage of Covid to rebuild strained alliances by donating medical supplies and vaccines but it has failed to do so.

Afghanistan was a snafu. Bush decided he was going to go to war against 2 Middle Eastern countries and then stick around for nation-building. What the hell was he thinking? The speedy collapse of the Afghan Government shows he merely built a house of cards. You would have thought he would have learnt from the folly of the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan (or the history of failed attempts at occupation). 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 17, 2021, 11:01:44 am
Cookie, the US almost had a successful coup by the far right. Yes, the US is more right-wing than Australia, but we tend to follow in their footsteps.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on August 17, 2021, 11:16:11 am
Wonder how Richmond are going to wriggle out of this one Caro.   Prestia out on the piss during lock down... Not a good look.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 17, 2021, 11:18:06 am
Biden screwed up Afghanistan by pulling all the troops out knowing the Afghan Army were hopeless and the Taliban would just walk in without firing a shot and take over.
5 weeks ago he said it was unlikely the Taliban would make any attempt to sieze control.
The Chinese must be thinking it could be time to make a move too..
Didn't Obama start the withdrawal of troups, I thought the deal struck by Trump was that the withdrawal of troups would be completed this year provided the Taliban honours it's commitment to prevent the operation of Al-Qaeda with Taliban controlled regions.

What is happening now might change massively in coming years.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 17, 2021, 11:23:29 am
Wonder how Richmond are going to wriggle out of this one Caro.   Prestia out on the piss during lock down... Not a good look.
Professer E, this isn't a footy site. Oh, wait a minute ...  :-[  :D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 17, 2021, 11:26:00 am
Didn't Obama start the withdrawal of troups, I thought the deal struck by Trump was that the withdrawal of troups would be completed this year provided the Taliban honours it's commitment to prevent the operation of Al-Qaeda with Taliban controlled regions.

What is happening now might change massively in coming years.
I wouldnt be doing any deals with the Taliban ever....they have just released all the ISIS prisoners that were being held in Afghanistan and it will be another war in the making. CoVid is a nice cover for these militants to operate in with the world having its hands full with a pandemic  and the USA pre-occupied with China.
https://theconversation.com/how-joe-biden-failed-the-people-of-afghanistan-and-tarnished-us-credibility-around-the-world-166160
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 17, 2021, 11:29:44 am
I wouldnt be doing any deals with the Taliban ever....they have just released all the ISIS prisoners that were being held in Afghanistan and it will be another war in the making. CoVid is a nice cover for these militants to operate in with the world having its hands full with a pandemic  and the USA pre-occupied with China.
But the Taliban deal was done wasn't it?

I feel sections of the current media are trying to repaint history, Obama and Biden did not do that deal.

I agree it was stupid, Al-Qaeda is just a label, like referring to a mass murderer as a crusader!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 17, 2021, 11:45:25 am
Cookie, the US almost had a successful coup by the far right. Yes, the US is more right-wing than Australia, but we tend to follow in their footsteps.

Mav I think the progressive left is also very strong in the US which could well lead to an ugly clash with the right.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 17, 2021, 12:09:33 pm
Mav I think the progressive left is also very strong in the US which could well lead to an ugly clash with the right.

Better believe it @cookie2 .... trouble is many of them can't even see it. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 17, 2021, 12:37:44 pm
Better believe it @cookie2 .... trouble is many of them can't even see it.
Personally, I think the problems are again the labels, they are used like a shield to hide behind as well as a catch-all category.

I think when you look at the very extreme edges of either the left or the right you'll find very little difference, both elicit extremes of discrimination, the only difference is the features that they target in those discriminations.

I note here in Australia, the extremists of the left or right complain loudly that there is too little difference between the moderates on either side of the fence, the extremists complain that the moderates are all the same!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 17, 2021, 12:57:59 pm
Mav I think the progressive left is also very strong in the US which could well lead to an ugly clash with the right.
The problem is that "the progressive left" in the US is basically the centre in Australia. When medicare for all is seen as an extremist view, that tells you a lot.

My perception is that trying to organise left wingers is like wrangling cats. They're pretty much going off in different directions. You have the hippies, the greenies, the socialist left, the pro-Union left, the NSW left. It's a miracle that they've split into only 2 parties in Australia. The right-wing, on the other hand, has increasingly tended towards authoritarianism and coalesces around Trump-like figures.

When someone as right-wing as Liz Cheney is considered too left-wing for the Republican Party, there's trouble ahead. She'd regard Peter Dutton and Matt Canavan as communists. As for Antifa, that isn't even a group. The sole role for those who are tagged with that name seems to be counter-protesting against the Nazis. That's a commendable activity in my book. It's not as though you hear about them kidnapping people a la the Red Brigade or robbing banks.   
https://youtu.be/ZTT1qUswYL0 (https://youtu.be/ZTT1qUswYL0)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 17, 2021, 01:09:38 pm
@ Mav

Both "sides" look pretty well organised and funded to me. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 17, 2021, 01:29:55 pm
Right-wing extremists are considered by the FBI as the major terrorist threat inside the US. More so than Islamic extremists. Left-wing extremists hardly rate. The insurrection on 5 Jan was just one example of it. Sometimes, both-side-ism isn't balanced, it's just wrong.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 17, 2021, 01:59:40 pm
But the Taliban deal was done wasn't it?

I feel sections of the current media are trying to repaint history, Obama and Biden did not do that deal.

I agree it was stupid, Al-Qaeda is just a label, like referring to a mass murderer as a crusader!
Biden and Trump both stuffed it up but Biden kept the intitial agreement and even used Trumps envoy didnt he?
The Pentagon warned Biden what was happening but he dithered around like he usually does and now is blaming the Afghan army. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9898177/How-Joe-botched-Afghanistan-Biden-ignored-Pentagon-warnings-Taliban-over.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 17, 2021, 02:17:11 pm
Right-wing extremists are considered by the FBI as the major terrorist threat inside the US. More so than Islamic extremists. Left-wing extremists hardly rate. The insurrection on 5 Jan was just one example of it. Sometimes, both-side-ism isn't balanced, it's just wrong.

Extremists are extremists in my book, both equally dangerous to democratic society.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 17, 2021, 02:28:10 pm
Biden and Trump both stuffed it up but Biden kept the intitial agreement and even used Trumps envoy didnt he?
The Pentagon warned Biden what was happening but he dithered around like he usually does and now is blaming the Afghan army. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9898177/How-Joe-botched-Afghanistan-Biden-ignored-Pentagon-warnings-Taliban-over.html
I suspect he knew what was going to happen and, like Trump, he waved the agreement around like Neville Chamberlain's piece of paper that guaranteed peace in our time. My guess is that Biden has just stolen the Captain Renault "I'm shocked, shocked to find gambling going on in this place" reaction from Casablanca. The mistake the US made was to occupy Afghanistan in the first place. When and how was the US ever going to leave without the Taliban taking over? There's been talk about withdrawal for the last decade: plenty of time for the Afghan Govt to prepare for that eventuality. The truth is they would never have been able to stand on their own 2 feet even if the withdrawal took 100 years to complete.

I feel sorry for the Afghanis who bought into a future without the Taliban. Not only is their future far different than what they'd been led to believe but many will have no future at all.

By the way, the Republican Party boasted on its website about the historic treaty Trump reached with the Taliban. That's now been deleted and no doubt it's being shoved down the memory hole as we speak. No doubt Trump will deny he ever made any such agreement as soon as next week. Anything to the contrary will just be fake news. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 17, 2021, 11:02:57 pm
Another article about Ivermectin, this time from The Age’s science reporter Daniel Mannix (whose previous work has impressed me):
Ivermectin, COVID-19, and making sense of scientific evidence (https://www.theage.com.au/national/examine-ivermectin-and-understanding-scientific-evidence-20210817-p58jd0.html), The Age.

It contains a lot of stuff about where to find credible information and how to sort the good from the bad. In particular, he recommends reviews by Cochrane, “an international non-profit bringing together top scientists to review evidence and produce easy-to-understand reports, using a special Cochrane method that eliminates sources of bias, like the insidious role of drug company funding.”

Quote
Australia’s federal government wisely funded Cochrane to set up a COVID-19 taskforce here, made up of representatives from across Australia’s medical societies. They are independent and unafraid; willing to point out a drug the government has purchased to treat COVID-19 might not work.

For these three reasons - independence, Cochrane methodology, representation across the medical spectrum - we can have a very high degree of confidence in their findings.

Compare that to c19early.com, one of the leading ivermectin websites. Put on your critical thinking hat, and ask: is an independent, government-funded, Cochrane-using panel made up of scientists drawn from across Australia’s leading institutions, or… a website put up anonymously... best placed to scrutinise the evidence?

Every week - seriously, every week - the Cochrane taskforce reviews all the new evidence generated on how to prevent and treat COVID-19. All this goes online. You can look up any treatment you want here. Just hit Ctrl-F on your keyboard.

Here’s its recommendation on ivermectin: Do not use ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19 outside of randomised trials with appropriate ethical approval.

Click on ‘research evidence’ and you can see a collection of all the published ivermectin data, sorted by outcome. But the more important thing to look at is the columns on the right.

Certainty of evidence takes into account the quality of the study. A study might claim to find ivermectin works, but if the quality is low, we cannot have faith in that finding. The evidence for every single clinical outcome for ivermectin is either low or very low quality.

There is simply not enough evidence to show whether ivermectin is helpful or harmful for patients with COVID-19.

Quote
Let’s turn, now, to a study that is actually quite good.

It’s called the TOGETHER trial. It’s a randomised controlled trial, and it’s very large. It publishes all its trial methodology online for everyone to read. Mr Meyerowitz-Katz describes it as a “masterpiece of science”.

The full findings haven’t been published yet, so we should treat them with a grain of salt. But the conclusions are available via a PowerPoint slide. They found essentially no benefit to ivermectin.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 18, 2021, 01:23:51 pm
Saw this today, thought it was worth repeating in regards to NSW;
Quote from: Dr Sara Marzouk, Aug 18, 2021
There is a lag of 2-3 weeks between case numbers and increased hospitalisations and deaths.
The 391 people in hospital, and the 66 people in ICU, are the culmination of figures 2-3 weeks ago when the daily numbers were half of what we are reporting today.
Also for those still banging on about being Anti-COVID-19 vaccination, this from a US Hospital on the 18th of Aug.

(https://scontent.fmel14-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/s960x960/238073906_10159928066282044_2776460745902600130_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=9267fe&_nc_ohc=hIM95qARvLEAX8XVzv9&tn=H5SzkRRUHVsGABVs&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel14-1.fna&oh=3717dff62d2769b810e20e8003a87315&oe=61211F6C)
Notice the trend?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 18, 2021, 01:32:29 pm
Who are the anti vaxxers?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 18, 2021, 02:01:22 pm
Who are the anti vaxxers?
Whoever can get it, and yet won't!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 18, 2021, 02:07:11 pm
Whoever can get it, and yet won't!
So the people who don't line up for the latest iphone for 12 hours before it is launched are anti-iphone??

Thats a BS call.

Plenty of reasons that people who are eligible but have not yet got it yet.....and lumping everyone in as anti-vaxxers shows about as much understanding as actual anti-vaxxers
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 18, 2021, 02:08:17 pm
Plenty of reasons that people who are eligible but have not yet got it yet.....and lumping everyone in as anti-vaxxers shows about as much understanding as actual anti-vaxxers
"Won't" is not the same as "can't", "can't yet", "will" or "will later!" ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 18, 2021, 02:41:00 pm
Meanwhile, data out of Israel shows that vaccine 'efficacy' past 6 months is poor.

Note the roll out of the 'booster' narrative in the MSM....

Yet, no safety data on a 3rd jab (or the inevitable 4th, 5th, 6th.....). I'm sure LP can identify the arithmetic sequence .... O0
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 18, 2021, 02:54:26 pm
Whoever can get it, and yet won't!

Okay. I got the Pfizer jab but I don't want my wife to get the Astra. Am I an anti vaxxer?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on August 18, 2021, 03:01:24 pm
Okay. I got the Pfizer jab but I don't want my wife to get the Astra. Am I an anti vaxxer?

Maybe your "a choicer".
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 18, 2021, 03:06:07 pm
Okay. I got the Pfizer jab but I don't want my wife to get the Astra. Am I an anti vaxxer?

Not an anti vaxxer, but maybe not relying on the best available information to make a decision IMO. I would check with your wife's GP, and see what they say. They may on certain occasions recommend one or the other.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on August 18, 2021, 03:20:36 pm
Half of Melbourne took advantage of the nice weather this weekend to have a jolly down the Bellarine.   This "lock down" is an utter joke.

A friend of mine from Barwon Heads has a 4WD with the name of a car dealer from Werribee on the number plate trim.  An outraged local keyed his 4WD 🙄

I haven’t noticed much in the way of extra traffic and I had to prove that I was a local before I could get a coffee.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 18, 2021, 03:24:13 pm
Not an anti vaxxer, but maybe not relying on the best available information to make a decision IMO. I would check with your wife's GP, and see what they say. They may on certain occasions recommend one or the other.

The government website says
The Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI) recommends the COVID-19 vaccine by Pfizer (Comirnaty) is preferred in adults aged under 60 years.
In people 60 years and over, ATAGI continue to advise that the benefits of vaccination with the AstraZeneca vaccine outweigh the risks associated with vaccination.
This recommendation is based on:

the increasing risk of severe outcomes from COVID-19 in older adults (and hence a higher benefit from vaccination), and
the increased risk of thrombosis with thrombocytopenia following AstraZeneca vaccine in those under 60 years.
There appears to be a small risk of TTS in people 60 years and over, but this risk appears to be lower than in younger people. Cases overseas have been reported at all ages.

If you are under 60 years of age and have already had your first dose of the AstraZeneca vaccine, and did not experience abnormal side effects, ATAGI recommends you still receive your second AstraZeneca dose. This will provide you with greater coverage against severe illness from COVID-19.

People who are considering vaccination with AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine should be aware of this potential complication as part of providing informed consent.

The COVID-19 AstraZeneca vaccine can be used in adults aged under 60 years where the benefits clearly outweigh the risk for that individual and the person has made an informed decision based on an understanding of the risks and benefits.

If you are aged 18-59 years of age, you can choose to receive the AstraZeneca vaccine:

following an appropriate assessment of suitability by a qualified health professional; and
if you provide verbal or written consent.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on August 18, 2021, 03:29:48 pm
“In today's CoronaCheck, we explain how statistics concerning COVID-19 cases among vaccinated people can mislead.”

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-06/coronacheck-israel-higher-numbers-vaccinated-people-infected/100353540

It’s always good to have an expert untangle the metrics 🙂😷
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 18, 2021, 04:12:35 pm
The government website says
The Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI) recommends the COVID-19 vaccine by Pfizer (Comirnaty) is preferred in adults aged under 60 years.
In people 60 years and over, ATAGI continue to advise that the benefits of vaccination with the AstraZeneca vaccine outweigh the risks associated with vaccination.
This recommendation is based on:

the increasing risk of severe outcomes from COVID-19 in older adults (and hence a higher benefit from vaccination), and
the increased risk of thrombosis with thrombocytopenia following AstraZeneca vaccine in those under 60 years.
There appears to be a small risk of TTS in people 60 years and over, but this risk appears to be lower than in younger people. Cases overseas have been reported at all ages.

If you are under 60 years of age and have already had your first dose of the AstraZeneca vaccine, and did not experience abnormal side effects, ATAGI recommends you still receive your second AstraZeneca dose. This will provide you with greater coverage against severe illness from COVID-19.

People who are considering vaccination with AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine should be aware of this potential complication as part of providing informed consent.

The COVID-19 AstraZeneca vaccine can be used in adults aged under 60 years where the benefits clearly outweigh the risk for that individual and the person has made an informed decision based on an understanding of the risks and benefits.

If you are aged 18-59 years of age, you can choose to receive the AstraZeneca vaccine:

following an appropriate assessment of suitability by a qualified health professional; and
if you provide verbal or written consent.

We've had this discussion many times before, and there seems little point in rehashing it. People who have convinced themselves that the Pfizer is better / safer / less dangerous will continue to believe that, and act accordingly.

The AZ is based on old, tried and true technology. Once you've had your shots, and had no issues, you should be comfortable in the knowledge that long term effects have been ironed out. The Pfizer is based on mRNA technology - this technology is newer, and before covid, was limited in use to test rats and the like, and also in human clinical trials for rabies and influenza. The first time they were available on a mass scale and approved for use in humans on such a scale was covid. Long term effects of such technology on a large scale is simply not known. The scientific community is not expecting any issues, but there's no way of knowing for sure.

So mbb, if you wake up one day and you've morphed into a 30cm plastic Arnie action figure, complete with face paint and a button on the back that calls out "chill out dickwad !" when you press it, look no further.  :D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 18, 2021, 05:03:01 pm
Meanwhile, data out of Israel shows that vaccine 'efficacy' past 6 months is poor.
No it doesn't.

Efficacy doesn't just mean "complete prevention" or "complete resistance", that inference is just a gross generalisation vaccine cynics make.

Efficacy is a compound measure of what a vaccine does to reduce transmission, prevent infection and prevent severe disease. Which is the exact point of the message from Saratosa Memorial Hospital was making with it's chart above (https://scontent.fmel14-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/s960x960/238073906_10159928066282044_2776460745902600130_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=9267fe&_nc_ohc=hIM95qARvLEAX8XVzv9&tn=H5SzkRRUHVsGABVs&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel14-1.fna&oh=3717dff62d2769b810e20e8003a87315&oe=61211F6C).

Just as the Influenza vaccine do not stop everyone getting the flu, the Sars-CoV-2 vaccines won't stop everyone getting COVID-19. But all the vaccines are very efficacious at reducing transmission, reducing infections and preventing severe disease. Which then reduces hospitalisations, reduces ICU admissions and reduces the need for ventilation. ;)

Finally, if you have a high percentage of the population already vaccinated, in Israel's case more than 80%, and a new variant starts to infect people, you will ironically have more vaccinated people being infected than unvaccinated people being infected because it's just either simple count or a percentage reported without regard to the severity of the cases or the otherwise healthy.       Hmmm, I think it's called arithmetic! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 18, 2021, 05:13:54 pm
“In today's CoronaCheck, we explain how statistics concerning COVID-19 cases among vaccinated people can mislead.”

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-06/coronacheck-israel-higher-numbers-vaccinated-people-infected/100353540

It’s always good to have an expert untangle the metrics 🙂😷
The following bit was probably the most informative, because it turns the Social Media tactics back on themselves.
Quote
In her blog post Professor McGowan outlined a situation in which 90 per cent of a group of 20 people were vaccinated. Four people in the group contracted COVID-19, including two who were unvaccinated and two who were, which means that 50 per cent of the infections were among vaccinated people.

By another measure, however, the same scenario showed that 100 per cent of unvaccinated people got sick, compared to just 11 per cent of vaccinated people.

In this case, the vaccine would be seen to be 89 per cent effective.
How many football pitches is that?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 18, 2021, 06:46:06 pm
https://www.sydney.edu.au/marie-bashir-institute/news-and-events/news/2021/08/05/should-i-wait-for-pfizer-the-case-for-astra-zeneca-now.html

An open letter of sorts, signed by various medical professionals, summarising why you should take whatever vaccine is available to you, rather than waiting for Pfizer. Dated 5th August.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 18, 2021, 06:47:01 pm
https://www.sydney.edu.au/marie-bashir-institute/news-and-events/news/2021/08/05/should-i-wait-for-pfizer-the-case-for-astra-zeneca-now.html

An open letter of sorts, signed by various medical professionals, summarising why you should take whatever vaccine is available to you, rather than waiting for Pfizer. Dated 5th August.
Raise the bat Pauly, you've made the triple ton of pages.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 18, 2021, 07:06:55 pm
Raise the bat Pauly, you've made the triple ton of pages.

Lol. A dubious honour.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 19, 2021, 08:52:50 am
57 cases.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 19, 2021, 08:55:43 am
Sydney took over a month to hit 50 cases for the record. Despite our tougher lockdowns we are going up quicker.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on August 19, 2021, 09:06:35 am
57 cases.

Not as bad as it seems. 44 were in quarantine.
So 13 is the real number.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 19, 2021, 09:10:12 am
Not as bad as it seems. 44 were in quarantine.
So 13 is the real number.

Hopefully, reminds of last year when the numbers spiked right before the lockdown extensions or controversial rulings then would drop a day or two later.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 19, 2021, 09:28:30 am
Not as bad as it seems. 44 were in quarantine.
So 13 is the real number.

Correct ... Will wait to see today's NSW numbers.  Proposed anti vaxxers protest this weekend.  Rubber bullets please
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 19, 2021, 09:31:33 am
Not as bad as it seems. 44 were in quarantine.
So 13 is the real number.
That’s if we assume those people who were supposed to be quarantining were quarantining 100% of the time. I fear there were different levels of compliance amongst those 44.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 19, 2021, 09:43:04 am
Correct ... Will wait to see today's NSW numbers.  Proposed anti vaxxers protest this weekend.  Rubber bullets please
At least MBB will finally have an answer to his “Who are the anti-vaxxers?” question ...     :P :))
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 19, 2021, 12:04:56 pm
681 new cases in NSW (predictions say this may rise to 3000 a day after 30 days) and just short of 10,000 infections since mid-June. Good on ya, Gladys, you're a legend! What a masterstroke: who would have thought a slow response would be so brilliant. I hope emergency services take note: if a fire starts in the bush, don't rush into things. Maybe give it a week or so and see if a few blokes with water pistols can turn it around.  But I guess ambulance services would say they've been doing that for years. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on August 19, 2021, 12:33:00 pm
Yep,  how many people are going to pay for bin chicken's hubris?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 19, 2021, 12:42:42 pm
Ruby Princess should have been a lesson.  These NSW idiots (listening Hazzard?) don't have a clue.  They're just so 'effin slow ... and we poor schmucks in Victoria have had over 200 days in lockdown.  FFS.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 19, 2021, 03:10:06 pm
(predictions say this may rise to 3000 a day after 30 days)
Just listened to an epidemiologist on radio, they think unless something extraordinary happens NSW will be 2,000 a day before the end of the month, and 10,000 a day by the end of Sept. That is an effective R0 = 3.0 every 14 days, if not for the lockdowns and vaccinations the R0 would be much higher, at this stage the restrictions have halved the effective transmission rates. But R0 = 3.0 still isn't great!

Vic have a very slight chance of not following that trend, and if Vic can't halt the spread it will be almost miracle territory if the same doesn't eventually happen in other states.

The big problem all the states have is non-compliance in the general public, too many people prepared to burn down the farm to get it over with. I suspect people touting that solution are ignorant of the long term effects! :o

I've also heard/read that this Delta variant is problematic because the incubation period is a bit more of a variable, it can turn up in a patient after 72hrs or as long as two weeks! So they expect to start making 14 days the default isolation period for everybody now, Tier 1, 2 , 3 or whatever!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 19, 2021, 03:16:40 pm
It's concerning that we have had 50 cases in a day despite being locked down for 4 of the last 5 weeks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 19, 2021, 03:18:29 pm
https://au.yahoo.com/news/vaccine-efficacy-wanes-under-delta-232414781.html

https://au.yahoo.com/news/pfizer-vaccine-effectiveness-declines-faster-014845033.html

Seems we are going to need booster jabs sooner than later and getting people to keep coming back isnt going to be easy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 19, 2021, 03:22:53 pm
It's concerning that we have had 50 cases in a day despite being locked down for 4 of the last 5 weeks.
The authorities knew this was coming, they should communicate it better and perhaps people would then understand why they have to follow the COVID-19 guidelines.

Now the important number is the case difference between those circulating in the community and those already in isolation. At the moment we've most cases coming from people already in isolation, that has to stay that hat way for it to diminish the spread. But he numbers still have to rise yet, they won't fall until you see the cases outside of isolation very very low.

For example today they reported about a dozen outside of isolation, of which they think 4 or so were circulating while infectious. If they have been in close contact with others freely circulating in the community those 4 can turn into about 30 in just one infectious cycle.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 19, 2021, 03:29:51 pm
Seems we are going to need booster jabs sooner than later and getting people to keep coming back isnt going to be easy.
It's a bit of a misleading or ambiguous report, because efficacy isn't just about infections. The concept in the media that the vaccines will stop infection is fundamentally wrong, and such studies used as the basis of media reports are a bit misleading. Many scientists and science communicators are a bit naivé, they report in a manner that allows findings to be mis-used or mis-quoted. What the science behind this really means to say is that you are not possibly safe unless you have been effectively vaccinated.

I do understand why they report that, it's because of the people who can't or won't get vaccinated, nobody is safe, the public can't wait this out and hope everybody around them will do the right thing, because even if they do anyone can still be infected and they can still transmit the virus to someone who isn't vaccinated.

Getting boosters won't necessarily reduce the infection rate, and the more people that get vaccinated will only lead to a higher percentage of cases being people already vaccinated. But in the countries with high vaccination rates acute cases are now made up of as high as 99% unvaccinated people, so the efficacy of the vaccines turns out to be very very high.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on August 19, 2021, 10:58:28 pm
Just listened to an epidemiologist on radio, they think unless something extraordinary happens NSW will be 2,000 a day before the end of the month, and 10,000 a day by the end of Sept. That is an effective R0 = 3.0 every 14 days, if not for the lockdowns and vaccinations the R0 would be much higher, at this stage the restrictions have halved the effective transmission rates. But R0 = 3.0 still isn't great!

Vic have a very slight chance of not following that trend, and if Vic can't halt the spread it will be almost miracle territory if the same doesn't eventually happen in other states.

The big problem all the states have is non-compliance in the general public, too many people prepared to burn down the farm to get it over with. I suspect people touting that solution are ignorant of the long term effects! :o

I've also heard/read that this Delta variant is problematic because the incubation period is a bit more of a variable, it can turn up in a patient after 72hrs or as long as two weeks! So they expect to start making 14 days the default isolation period for everybody now, Tier 1, 2 , 3 or whatever!

Think that's something? Check out what is happening in Israel. Now 8,000 cases and rising. This is from a country that was an early adopter for vaccinations and had have 60% vaccination rate from March this year. Delta is resetting the agenda.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 20, 2021, 12:15:55 pm
Did I just read correctly in The Age that in NSW only now are masks mandatory outdoors!! Plus an admittance that stronger measures should have been adopted since day 1!!!

I'm going back to read the article again.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 20, 2021, 12:39:15 pm
You read it correctly @Baggers ... and lockdown to 01 October in that state.  How could you be so stupid with not enforcing that policy?  Delta is clearly something else thanks to the chinks

Careful what you wish for, dictator Dan is on the verge of making the lockdown even tougher.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 20, 2021, 12:47:00 pm
Chairman hunchback is capable of anything.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 20, 2021, 12:53:34 pm
Careful what you wish for, dictator Dan is on the verge of making the lockdown even tougher.

If NSW has taught people anything, its better to go too hard too soon than to risk not going hard enough, soon enough.

Its easy for me to say who has not really been affected too much by it all, but i think the NSW situation is going to be a big wake up call to a few Vics.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 20, 2021, 01:14:05 pm
Careful what you wish for, dictator Dan is on the verge of making the lockdown even tougher.

One is an emergency response to a failing.

The other is preventative.

Both are terribly difficult for many.

And to be honest and perhaps too revealing. I am personally one of those, from a mental health perspective, who suffers pretty badly on announcement of a lockdown, and during a lockdown. I feel instantly 'trapped' which triggers my PTSD quite badly. I aint Robinson Crusoe. I can inform you that DVA/Open Arms and many RSLs are run off their, under resourced, feet during such times.

In real terms what does that mean? On lockdown announcement and news stories of escalating infections, I experience: shortness of breath (anxiety asthma, although I don't have asthma), shaking, loss of appetite (a severe symptom for this little black duck!! ;) ), IBS, nightmares, uncontrollable short bursts of weeping, loss of interest in most things I enjoy, hot and cold sweats and waves of severe panic. Dealing with these things and getting them under control, takes days, at times weeks, and involves assistance from other professionals in my field. A couple of times emergency intervention.

But at no stage do I blame, lash out at or feel critical of those in Victoria making these lockdown decisions.

If I do feel angry at anyone, it's the self interested, ignorant b@stards who flout the lockdown rules creating it more difficult for everyone, by creating more Covid breaches and infections. In fact I've felt angry enough at these pr1cks to stupidly wonder, for a brief moment, if a half ounce of lead behind the left ear isn't the cure to rid ourselves of these fools (would never seriously consider it, but sure have felt it - fleetingly). I am certainly supportive of legal measures to get these clowns off the streets to protect the greater majority of good folks who are team players, as draconian as that may seem.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 20, 2021, 01:25:06 pm
Yesterday I was out for a walk and needed to make a call at a toilet in a local recreation reserve. In the kids playground was a young mum with two kids, no masks, and the kids playing happily on swings that had a large PLAYGROUND CLOSED sign attached. Un..feckin’…believable.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on August 20, 2021, 01:40:47 pm
Careful what you wish for, dictator Dan is on the verge of making the lockdown even tougher.

  We have witnessed the failed Gladys mockdown experiment in NSW, and the scrambling today to impose further restrictions there.

And we have heard the Far Right mouthpiece, Jeff Kennett, giving his view to all and sundry about the need to "learn to live with the virus", although never giving details of how that might be done.

Given the rising number of unlinked cases in the community in Melbourne, what do you suggest we should do?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 20, 2021, 01:41:29 pm
Yesterday I was out for a walk and needed to make a call at a toilet in a local recreation reserve. In the kids playground was a young mum with two kids, no masks, and the kids playing happily on swings that had a large PLAYGROUND CLOSED sign attached. Un..feckin’…believable.
Did you give them a serve? I would have cut loose.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 20, 2021, 02:00:35 pm
Did you give them a serve? I would have cut loose.

I did on Wednesday, to two young women (bogans) who strolled into Woolies, no QR Code check-in, snouts in the air as they approached and walked past the young Woolies employee trying to encourage people to check-in properly. She remained silent, and seemed intimidated.. I didn't and wasn't, just infuriated.

Baggers: "Hey, you two you forgot to check-in."
Heads turned. The two offenders gave me a dirty look and shook their heads, dismissively.

Baggers: "So you're better than all these people." Arm sweeps, indicating other shoppers, some who've stopped to watch the exchange. "When you fail to check-in and ignore lockdown rules you are actually saying to all these good folks, these team players, that you're better than them and don't give a stuff about them. How long have you two been better than everyone else here?" I've got a big voice.

They told me to 'get f*cked'.
Baggers: "Thank you. Later tonight, all going well." Such a smart @rse I am.

I was then surprised to hear others with comments of, "Yeah," "Exactly," and a few other words of agreement.

The pair turned, muttered expletives, and stormed out.

I hated doing it, but will do it again if needed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 20, 2021, 03:11:40 pm
Me?  It would have been "get out or I'll smash your face in"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 20, 2021, 03:27:24 pm
Did you give them a serve? I would have cut loose.

I gave them a glare and shaped to take a photo with my phone. She gave a steely glare back, swept up the kids and took off. No words exchanged.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 20, 2021, 05:03:17 pm
  We have witnessed the failed Gladys mockdown experiment in NSW, and the scrambling today to impose further restrictions there.

And we have heard the Far Right mouthpiece, Jeff Kennett, giving his view to all and sundry about the need to "learn to live with the virus", although never giving details of how that might be done.

Given the rising number of unlinked cases in the community in Melbourne, what do you suggest we should do?



Are we winning are we? 50 cases a day despite our tough lockdown.

Kennett far right? Serious?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 20, 2021, 05:05:00 pm
I did on Wednesday, to two young women (bogans) who strolled into Woolies, no QR Code check-in, snouts in the air as they approached and walked past the young Woolies employee trying to encourage people to check-in properly. She remained silent, and seemed intimidated.. I didn't and wasn't, just infuriated.

Baggers: "Hey, you two you forgot to check-in."
Heads turned. The two offenders gave me a dirty look and shook their heads, dismissively.

Baggers: "So you're better than all these people." Arm sweeps, indicating other shoppers, some who've stopped to watch the exchange. "When you fail to check-in and ignore lockdown rules you are actually saying to all these good folks, these team players, that you're better than them and don't give a stuff about them. How long have you two been better than everyone else here?" I've got a big voice.

They told me to 'get f*cked'.
Baggers: "Thank you. Later tonight, all going well." Such a smart @rse I am.

I was then surprised to hear others with comments of, "Yeah," "Exactly," and a few other words of agreement.

The pair turned, muttered expletives, and stormed out.

I hated doing it, but will do it again if needed.


Would you have done it if it was two young blokes?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 20, 2021, 05:27:25 pm
Would you have done it if it was two young blokes?


I've done similar with blokes. Gender doesn't matter. If you're asking if I wouldn't do it to blokes for fear of getting the cr@p punched out of me... nuh. If that happened, so be it. What matters is speaking up.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 20, 2021, 05:38:26 pm
I've done similar with blokes. Gender doesn't matter. If you're asking if I wouldn't do it to blokes for fear of getting the cr@p punched out of me... nuh. If that happened, so be it. What matters is speaking up.

Well said @Baggers :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 20, 2021, 05:40:31 pm
I've done similar with blokes. Gender doesn't matter. If you're asking if I wouldn't do it to blokes for fear of getting the cr@p punched out of me... nuh. If that happened, so be it. What matters is speaking up.
Good an ya mate. I called out a bloke at Wollies a few weeks ago, Tatts from a-hole to breakfast, he put a mask on.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 20, 2021, 06:51:54 pm
Just heard from a client interstate who owns and operates a very successful small business -- we were chatting about Covid -- that more and more clients are asking that sales people who visit them be fully vaccinated! The ball is rolling.

He also mentioned to me (one eyed BlueBagger) that he'd read that there are early stage discussions/explorations on how to get a crowd to the grand final of fully vaccinated fans (presumable also tested within a few days of attendance along with isolation after receiving a negative result)! What a message that would send. I don't know any of the details only that the idea has been floated.

If this and other initiatives were explored re opening businesses to fully vaccinated customers it may help out economically in no small measure. Though the opposition to such an initiative would no doubt open the flood gates to all manner of protest, even division. But it also might be the motivation some people need. Interesting topic for discussion and what other measures might be put in place to help out folks hurt by extended lockdowns.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 20, 2021, 06:57:08 pm
Just heard from a client interstate who owns and operates a very successful small business -- we were chatting about Covid -- that more and more clients are asking that sales people who visit them be fully vaccinated! The ball is rolling.

He also mentioned to me (one eyed BlueBagger) that he'd read that there are early stage discussions/explorations on how to get a crowd to the grand final of fully vaccinated fans (presumable also tested within a few days of attendance along with isolation after receiving a negative result)! What a message that would send. I don't know any of the details only that the idea has been floated.

If this and other initiatives were explored re opening businesses to fully vaccinated customers it may help out economically in no small measure. Though the opposition to such an initiative would no doubt open the flood gates to all manner of protest, even division. But it also might be the motivation some people need. Interested topic for discussion and what other measures might be put in place to help out folks hurt by extended lockdowns.
Sister in law works for Auspost in Sydney and there is a story circulating the management will insist on all staff being vaccinated as well as having regular rapid antigen tests. Staff who refuse will be given a dont come Monday....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on August 20, 2021, 06:58:31 pm
Good
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 20, 2021, 07:49:12 pm
We will, before too long, be required to carry, maybe via a phone app, our personal “permissions” passport which will include vax status. This will determine where and when we will be allowed to go. Some call it social scoring but anyway……
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 20, 2021, 08:13:21 pm
VACCINATION CARD

Hello.
-Hi, table for two, please.
-Sure, and your name.
-Cody.
-Great. And do you and your guest have your vaccination cards?
-Hmmm well first..Can you tell us who our server will be?
-Um, looks like Brad will be your server tonight.
-Great. Can you show us Brad's vaccination card?
-Um...
-And also, can you provide me with proof that Brad is not a carrier of HIV, Hepatitis A or B, or any other communicable diseases?  Same for you and the kitchen staff.
-Um...
-Also, we would prefer not to be served by someone who is on or uses recreational drugs such as marijuana, cocaine, meth, fentanyl, etc, so if you could provide us with Brad's most recent tox screen, that would be great. Matter of fact, imma need to see all of your employees medical history.
-Um... Let me get the manager for you.
-That would be great, thanks.  Make sure they have their vax card and medical records please. 

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 20, 2021, 08:20:50 pm
VACCINATION CARD

Hello.
-Hi, table for two, please.
-Sure, and your name.
-Cody.
-Great. And do you and your guest have your vaccination cards?
-Hmmm well first..Can you tell us who our server will be?
-Um, looks like Brad will be your server tonight.
-Great. Can you show us Brad's vaccination card?
-Um...
-And also, can you provide me with proof that Brad is not a carrier of HIV, Hepatitis A or B, or any other communicable diseases?  Same for you and the kitchen staff.
-Um...
-Also, we would prefer not to be served by someone who is on or uses recreational drugs such as marijuana, cocaine, meth, fentanyl, etc, so if you could provide us with Brad's most recent tox screen, that would be great. Matter of fact, imma need to see all of your employees medical history.
-Um... Let me get the manager for you.
-That would be great, thanks.  Make sure they have their vax card and medical records please.

Give it a couple of years, maybe not that long, apps are ready now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: rocky on August 20, 2021, 08:28:18 pm
VACCINATION CARD
Hello.
-Hi, table for two, please.
-Sure, and your name.
-Cody.
-Great. And do you and your guest have your vaccination cards?
-Hmmm well first..Can you tell us who our server will be?
-Um, looks like Brad will be your server tonight.
-Great. Can you show us Brad's vaccination card?
-Um...
-And also, can you provide me with proof that Brad is not a carrier of HIV, Hepatitis A or B, or any other communicable diseases?  Same for you and the kitchen staff.
-Um...
-Also, we would prefer not to be served by someone who is on or uses recreational drugs such as marijuana, cocaine, meth, fentanyl, etc, so if you could provide us with Brad's most recent tox screen, that would be great. Matter of fact, imma need to see all of your employees medical history.
-Um... Let me get the manager for you.
-That would be great, thanks.  Make sure they have their vax card and medical records please. 
Manager : Hi there, I'm the manager and just like every establishment in the hospitality industry I have the right to refuse someone from entering my business, or refuse to serve someone, as long as I don't breach any anti-discrimination laws. So you and your partner can F off.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 20, 2021, 08:29:44 pm
It's unreal .... what next, branding?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 20, 2021, 08:42:43 pm
We will, before too long, be required to carry, maybe via a phone app, our personal “permissions” passport which will include vax status. This will determine where and when we will be allowed to go. Some call it social scoring but anyway……

https://theconversation.com/vaccination-passport-apps-could-help-society-reopen-first-they-have-to-be-secure-private-and-trusted-157219

Leaving aside mbb's rather peculiar linking of a worthy idea with hypothetical OTT behaviour in order to discredit the original idea, I say anything that can get us closer to normal sooner rather than later is worthwhile. As is always the case, success or failure will reside in the implementation and details.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 20, 2021, 09:05:35 pm
https://theconversation.com/vaccination-passport-apps-could-help-society-reopen-first-they-have-to-be-secure-private-and-trusted-157219

Leaving aside mbb's rather peculiar linking of a worthy idea with hypothetical OTT behaviour in order to discredit the original idea, I say anything that can get us closer to normal sooner rather than later is worthwhile. As is always the case, success or failure will reside in the implementation and details.

It will indeed be a brave new world Paul and as always the devil will be in the detail.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 20, 2021, 11:05:22 pm
Rumour.. harsher lockdown conditions on there way in Victoria. 1km limit, 1 hour exercise, no takeaway food or coffee.
One shopping trip per week only..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on August 20, 2021, 11:47:12 pm
Heard the Same.

Have we ever had 1kms
Before???
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 21, 2021, 07:46:22 am
Wow, will the SS be re-formed to patrol the streets?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 21, 2021, 08:58:05 am
61 new cases today in Vic, tougher restrictions likely.........ABC News.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 21, 2021, 09:09:52 am
Spun me out reading the above. Where's the Xanax... just kidding.

I hope we don't go that far. Hospitality is doing it hard enough without closing them down, completely. Unless, of course, they are properly compensated.

But what I hope more than anything is that those doing the wrong thing -- no masks, distancing etc. -- do the right thing. A pointless hope, I fear.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on August 21, 2021, 10:40:24 am
Rumour.. harsher lockdown conditions on there way in Victoria. 1km limit, 1 hour exercise, no takeaway food or coffee.
One shopping trip per week only..

The dictator will not stop folks till he whips out 1000s to suicide, small businesses gone forever, breaks families up, no city trade, all because he has a fascination with a target of 0 infection in society to a virus strain that is NOT AS BAD as the previous but is highly contagious.  He will not listen and he will not stop.
 
We all acknowledge the government must put start and safe measures in place to protect the elderly and push thru the vaccination of all those who want it but he refuses to acknowledge any effect this is having on the young and middle age of our community and i see it first hand and its out of control folks.

Like his 'i cant remember' answers to questioning he never ever admits he has it wrong and will continue on his merry way of making our state a laughing stock locally and internationally while he is in charge.

He mocks other states records yet wont acknowledge his part in the debacle that lead to 10 times the deaths of any state in the country.

Disgraceful and its only getting worse.
 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 21, 2021, 10:51:42 am
This is what you need to be more worried about than Dan's actions.

(https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.951%2C$multiply_1.0582%2C$ratio_1.5%2C$width_756%2C$x_48%2C$y_0/t_crop_custom/q_86%2Cf_auto/49f55eefdcfbfed51e3dc1e604208c1da1a5a318)
https://www.theage.com.au/national/nsw/hunt-for-sydney-man-who-tested-positive-to-covid-19-failed-to-isolate-20210821-p58koj.html

A young involuntary celibate loser, fully viral loaded and as deadly to some people as a bullet, deliberately spreading Sars-CoV-2 like some sort of viral warfare jihadi!

But you have to feel sorry for him as well, he'll end up a loner, killing relatives and friends as well as "the enemy", maybe he'll kill even more friends and relatives than enemies if his associates and relatives follow his anti-vaxx edict!

It doesn't matter what his mental state is like, how well he is educated, what religion he follows, his race, colour, wealth and post-code are all irrelevant. The only thing that matters is he has made a decision to effectively fully weaponize his infection.

You as an individual can't defend yourself against this, so the only thing authorities can do is lockdown everyone and hope that good people do the right thing, which will highlight those who don't, limit the damage they can do and make them easier to detect!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 21, 2021, 10:55:31 am
The dictator will not stop folks till he whips out 1000s to suicide, small businesses gone forever, breaks families up, no city trade, all because he has a fascination with a target of 0 infection in society to a virus strain that is NOT AS BAD as the previous but is highly contagious.  He will not listen and he will not stop.

The nature of the beast .. let's see what happens this arvo with the protests. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 21, 2021, 10:59:40 am
This is what you need to be more worried about than Dan's actions.

(https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.951%2C$multiply_1.0582%2C$ratio_1.5%2C$width_756%2C$x_48%2C$y_0/t_crop_custom/q_86%2Cf_auto/49f55eefdcfbfed51e3dc1e604208c1da1a5a318)
https://www.theage.com.au/national/nsw/hunt-for-sydney-man-who-tested-positive-to-covid-19-failed-to-isolate-20210821-p58koj.html

A young involuntary celibate loser, fully viral loaded and as deadly to some people as a bullet, deliberately spreading Sars-CoV-2 like some sort of viral warfare jihadi!

But you have to feel sorry for him as well, he'll end up a loner, killing relatives and friends as well as "the enemy", maybe he'll kill even more friends and relatives than enemies if his associates and relatives follow his anti-vaxx edict!

Feel sorry for that mongrel trash?  Enemy of the state
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 21, 2021, 11:04:31 am
Feel sorry for that mongrel trash?  Enemy of the state
They are products of that state, enemies do not have to come from beyond.

Lot's of countries now understand the toughest enemy is most like going to come from within! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on August 21, 2021, 11:25:36 am
The dictator will not stop folks till he whips out 1000s to suicide, small businesses gone forever, breaks families up, no city trade, all because he has a fascination with a target of 0 infection in society to a virus strain that is NOT AS BAD as the previous but is highly contagious.  He will not listen and he will not stop.
 
We all acknowledge the government must put start and safe measures in place to protect the elderly and push thru the vaccination of all those who want it but he refuses to acknowledge any effect this is having on the young and middle age of our community and i see it first hand and its out of control folks.

Like his 'i cant remember' answers to questioning he never ever admits he has it wrong and will continue on his merry way of making our state a laughing stock locally and internationally while he is in charge.

He mocks other states records yet wont acknowledge his part in the debacle that lead to 10 times the deaths of any state in the country.

Disgraceful and its only getting worse.
 

As I write this I hear that NSW has just recorded 825 new cases.  How is it that you direct all your criticism at Andrews and give Gladys a pass?

We are on the cliff's edge because of NSW inaction allowing the infection to come here.

NSW hospitals are close to collapse with the number of people presenting for Covid treatment. 

You bang on about the number of deaths last year in Victoria but conveniently forget to mention that the fault for those deaths lies at the feet of the federal govt, and in particular Colbeck, who failed to vaccinate the elderly in Commonwealth run nursing homes.

Do you ever watch the NSW daily press meetings?  I have yet to hear Gladys give a straight answer to a question, in direct contrast to Dan who answers every question asked of him.





Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 21, 2021, 11:43:57 am
The stand with Dan cult always blaming others.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on August 21, 2021, 11:51:20 am
As I write this I hear that NSW has just recorded 825 new cases.  How is it that you direct all your criticism at Andrews and give Gladys a pass?

We are on the cliff's edge because of NSW inaction allowing the infection to come here.

NSW hospitals are close to collapse with the number of people presenting for Covid treatment. 

You bang on about the number of deaths last year in Victoria but conveniently forget to mention that the fault for those deaths lies at the feet of the federal govt, and in particular Colbeck, who failed to vaccinate the elderly in Commonwealth run nursing homes.

Do you ever watch the NSW daily press meetings?  I have yet to hear Gladys give a straight answer to a question, in direct contrast to Dan who answers every question asked of him.







I don’t like any of them but at least gladys stubbornness cause 800 plus deaths that could have been avoided.

All I’m saying is restrictions need to be proportionate to the level of threat. And I’m not referring to case numbers which mean little to me it’s hospitalisation and death numbers that should be the numbers that carry weight - in nsw today 825 cases reported where only 58 are confirmed in the community but they prefer to use the case numbers and they provide more fear in the community which give the pollies more power to enforce these harvest lockdowns seen in comparison to death rates anywhere in the world.

3 people died over night in nsw where the Covid pandemic is supposed to be running rampant.

How many people live in nsw? 3 deaths…….

No wonder we are a laughing stock and the flip side effort of this is being hidden and trying to eliminate the virus is absolute madness.

We can’t live in lockdown forever.
 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 21, 2021, 12:18:28 pm
They are products of that state, enemies do not have to come from beyond.

Lot's of countries now understand the toughest enemy is most like going to come from within! ;)

I hope the authorities find him ... and do him harm.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 21, 2021, 12:22:12 pm
The restrictions we have had for the last 2 weeks are more than enough if people comply. Punishing the 99% who are complying isn't going to make the other 1% change their ways.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 21, 2021, 12:37:38 pm
This is what you need to be more worried about than Dan's actions.

(https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.951%2C$multiply_1.0582%2C$ratio_1.5%2C$width_756%2C$x_48%2C$y_0/t_crop_custom/q_86%2Cf_auto/49f55eefdcfbfed51e3dc1e604208c1da1a5a318)
https://www.theage.com.au/national/nsw/hunt-for-sydney-man-who-tested-positive-to-covid-19-failed-to-isolate-20210821-p58koj.html

A young involuntary celibate loser, fully viral loaded and as deadly to some people as a bullet, deliberately spreading Sars-CoV-2 like some sort of viral warfare jihadi!

But you have to feel sorry for him as well, he'll end up a loner, killing relatives and friends as well as "the enemy", maybe he'll kill even more friends and relatives than enemies if his associates and relatives follow his anti-vaxx edict!

It doesn't matter what his mental state is like, how well he is educated, what religion he follows, his race, colour, wealth and post-code are all irrelevant. The only thing that matters is he has made a decision to effectively fully weaponize his infection.

You as an individual can't defend yourself against this, so the only thing authorities can do is lockdown everyone and hope that good people do the right thing, which will highlight those who don't, limit the damage they can do and make them easier to detect!

An inconvenient truth, Spotted One. Well said. Nail. Head.

One of our biggest worries, even enemies, walks among us.

Too simple and easy to see problems through the eyes of our political ideologies. The human need for blame and scapegoating is only fed by blind loyalty to an ideology. Einstein once said (paraphrased) that once you see the world through a political ideology, you no longer have use for your brain. You only need the brain stem... to breathe and walk. You'll think what you're told to by your chosen blind loyalty. It's why I don't have a political allegiance. Personally, I think there is no difference between the far right and far left... both ends house zealots and fools (is that tautology?).

The essence, IMHO, of what you posted Spotted One -- a searing truth -- is that most blame for the spread of this virus lies at the feet of those within the community who refute the virus or its dangers and hence disregard safeguards for them, their friends and families and the broader community at large. Equally, the anti-vaxxer lunies. Then there are those who just don't give a sh1t about others. Then there are those who are oblivious due to some cognitive impairment or cultural isolation or language/communication difficulties.

Yes, had SloMo and the Federal Govt at large not been so disgracefully negligent of their responsibility to aged care, then the shocking Victorian death toll last year would not have been anywhere near 800+. And the operators of these aged care facilities also have blood on their hands.

Yes, had Gladys been more pro-active and less politically driven then NSW would not be going through this horror today.

Yes, had Dan acted sooner last year than he did the death toll would have been far less... and the failings of the Feds and aged care operators wouldn't have been so exposed. An unfortunate team effort!

But as is often the case in a community problem of this magnitude, relying on politicians to 'save' us is pointless. This is our problem. And by each and everyone one of us committing to measures that minimise virus transmission -- masks, social distancing, hand sanitizing -- then we have half a chance.

BUT, there is one more measure, an exceedingly important ingredient in slowing this contagions spread. Us. The community. Calling out those who flagrantly break the laws of lockdown and the laws of social responsibility. Not aggressively or violently. Each in our own way. The Fluffy One gave dissenters he encountered a stern and effective look that changed behaviour. I did it my way last Wednesday. CC did it his way. A photo of dissenters to police. A phone call to police with a rego number. We need to assist and support the cops in this highly unpleasant task. Though very mindful NOT to cross the line into vigilantism.

These dissenters need to know that the greater community is opposed to their behaviour. And that we will act.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 21, 2021, 12:41:14 pm
And there we have it from our ABC ... illegal marches right now across the CBD called "peaceful".

FO Buttrose. >:D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on August 21, 2021, 12:42:33 pm
Ah there were 630 odd out in the community in Nsw not 50 odd.

I absolute despise the dictator Dan rhetoric, so you know what a dictatorship in real terms looks like?

You also do know the CHO is the one that makes the recommendations right? Not Dan personally?

You know Chant has made recommendations that Gladbag has ignored, right? Their hospitals are full, and they ain’t seen nothing yet - it is going to get ugly.  Very sadly. Had she not been written up by pro Lib media the Murdoch trash rags about how she saved Australia and gold standard bullcraptery, you would think her ego wouldn’t be so out of control that she’d admit she was wrong earlier and do what she needed to do.

Parties in Maroubra and hundreds at a funeral 👌🏼 Where there were infectious people. Great job NSW, thanks a bunch gold 🌟 indeed.

Also you say you see it yourself the young and Middle Aged are suffering - in my circles we are ok, my kids are ok, their friends are ok, we’re all complying with health orders and being patient and doing our best. I’ve picked up another job to help with the family finances that I can do from home and anyone could’ve applied from - census - so I’m helping myself. Trying to help local businesses where I can too.

Trying to stay positive for my kids, role modelling resilience amongst a 1 in 100 year pandemic.

Also the world laughing at us? Please stop watching Fox News. I saw that bullcrap video, where they interviewed Christensen 😂 I mean seriously, that guy is an absolute chump! Where Fox News might be reporting Texans are laughing at us, I have a friend from there who I see her friends back in Texas and Florida writing on her fb posts, they are terrified! The governor had banned masks! They’re terrified for their children going to school and getting Covid. There are bodies piling up on refrigeration trucks and lines around the hospital, there ain’t no more room for others - and this is a place where vaccinations are higher.

Direct your anger appropriately - scumo failed Australia with his bullcrap vaccine ‘it’s not a race’ and Gladbag has kicked us in the guts with her liberal ideology! When it comes down to it, keeping everything open really isn’t the best idea is it, otherwise they would not now be locking the place down!

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 21, 2021, 12:43:35 pm
The restrictions we have had for the last 2 weeks are more than enough if people comply. Punishing the 99% who are complying isn't going to make the other 1% change their ways.

Probably more like 90-95% are complying and 5-10% are not.

Yes, the higher % of folks are suffering because of the 5-10%. Time for the higher % to let the c0ckheads know that we will say something, we will report them. As I mentioned previously, it's up to us in the community to no longer be passive when seeing a wrongdoer. Speak up. Let them know it aint only the cops they need look out for... it's every person behind a mask they need look out for.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 21, 2021, 12:56:20 pm
Bravo MICKYO on your attitude and leadership re supporting your family and friends. Champ.

In the process of what you point out, how about we also apply some pressure to those who refuse to be team players. Let's apply peaceful but accountable commentary to those who endanger us all with their lack of social responsibility. Be that through a friendly but firm reminder to them of their behaviour or for those wanting to avoid confrontation, an anonymous call to cops will also help. When the community at large -- the team players -- and not only the law enforcement folks, are seen as threats to the ignorant and dangerous behaviour of dissenters then we stand a chance of a far high co-operation to thwart this contagion... and the threat of harsher and more lockdowns.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on August 21, 2021, 01:29:41 pm
Bunch of idiots on the Cbd and I’m reading people with young children in prams! Would you put your kids in that environment? FMD. Knowing the police will be holding their line, you’re recklessly causing your child a chance of being injured. Special kinds of morons.

They’re just yelling and screaming, I would say most are there just to stick it to the man and run around like dipcraps.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 21, 2021, 01:36:37 pm
Bunch of idiots on the Cbd and I’m reading people with young children in prams! Would you put your kids in that environment? FMD. Knowing the police will be holding their line, you’re recklessly causing your child a chance of being injured. Special kinds of morons.

They’re just yelling and screaming, I would say most are there just to stick it to the man and run around like dipcraps.



Well said, MickyO. Spot on summary.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 21, 2021, 01:58:31 pm
How many people live in nsw? 3 deaths…….
So like the RTA Advertisements, can we pick 3 of your family at random to sub?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on August 21, 2021, 05:27:25 pm
So like the RTA Advertisements, can we pick 3 of your family at random to sub?

I thought you were better then that. Is that all you have to justify rules that are being discussed as not relative to the threat?

So based on your mentality let’s stay in lockdown for possibly the next decade as Covid even with vaccines is still going to take lives and in the process let’s decimate the economy lose a large percentage of small businesses, spiral mental health which includes increased suicide number that no one seems to consider as they are hidden, stop all levels of education and that is based on even one death being too much as that one may just be your mum your sister etc.

I thought you were smarter than that LP.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 21, 2021, 05:46:15 pm
I thought you were better then that. Is that all you have to justify rules that are being discussed as not relative to the threat?

So based on your mentality let’s stay in lockdown for possibly the next decade as Covid even with vaccines is still going to take lives and in the process let’s decimate the economy lose a large percentage of small businesses, spiral mental health which includes increased suicide number that no one seems to consider as they are hidden, stop all levels of education and that is based on even one death being too much as that one may just be your mum your sister etc.

I thought you were smarter than that LP.
Nobody is asserting what you claim, you are debating a fantasy, both in the historical points you critique and the potential future you claim!

If the protestors stop protesting and started vaccinating the whole lockdown landscape would change, just as it has in Israel there may be more cases but there will be far far fewer hospitalisations per million from those cases.

It is the vaccine dissenters that extend the pain not the health authorities, not the politicians.

Ironically, I see a bunch of 50 and 60 year olds also protesting the vaccine, why is that ironic. Because many of them having been about in the 50s and 60s were marched down by mum or dad to the free Polio vaccine hub, typically at a primary school or in some cases a temporary tent, and given a free jab. Nearly all of them wearing the scars of that vaccination on their upper arm, they have accepted a right they now deny other today. They need mummy or daddy to return and give them a slap around the ears!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 21, 2021, 06:30:22 pm
Kids getting pepper sprayed!
Well done Dan!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 21, 2021, 06:44:25 pm
Kids getting pepper sprayed!
Well done Dan!
Who brings kids to protests that always turn violent.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 21, 2021, 06:48:25 pm
Who brings kids to protests that always turn violent.

Morons.

Does that mean we pepper spray their kids?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 21, 2021, 07:09:03 pm
Charge the parents with neglect & take the kids off them. Then vaccinate them and give them back  ^-^
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 21, 2021, 07:11:00 pm
Charge the parents with neglect & take the kids off them. Then vaccinate them and give them back  ^-^

Agreed and also suspend the police officers who did it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 21, 2021, 07:20:08 pm
... and the 7 police officers in hospital?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 21, 2021, 07:22:32 pm
All those big brave protestors with they Anonymous masks on, real tough!

How about those nerds who pushed the kid forward to cop a face full of pepper spray, or the norbit who hid behind he child's pram as the big brave protestors charged past her on retreat!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 21, 2021, 07:36:20 pm
... and the 7 police officers in hospital?

What about them?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 21, 2021, 07:41:43 pm
What about them?

Whose side are you on?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 21, 2021, 07:43:05 pm
Whose side are you on?

It's not a game of football.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on August 21, 2021, 07:48:33 pm
Nobody is asserting what you claim, you are debating a fantasy, both in the historical points you critique and the potential future you claim!

If the protestors stop protesting and started vaccinating the whole lockdown landscape would change, just as it has in Israel there may be more cases but there will be far far fewer hospitalisations per million from those cases.

It is the vaccine dissenters that extend the pain not the health authorities, not the politicians.

Ironically, I see a bunch of 50 and 60 year olds also protesting the vaccine, why is that ironic. Because many of them having been about in the 50s and 60s were marched down by mum or dad to the free Polio vaccine hub, typically at a primary school or in some cases a temporary tent, and given a free jab. Nearly all of them wearing the scars of that vaccination on their upper arm, they have accepted a right they now deny other today. They need mummy or daddy to return and give them a slap around the ears!

You avoiding replying to my post and bought in other factors I made no comment on.

My point is and has been all along that restrictions should be centred around protecting the biggest group at danger the elderly and the sick.

But no out leader Dan runs prefers a blanket restrictions that effects everyone regardless of how serious the real danger is to them.

He runs his own show doesn’t answer to anyone and his obsession with zero transmission will run our state on many levels beyond repair.

Anyhow that’s my opinion and you can have yours.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 21, 2021, 07:54:00 pm
Morons.

Does that mean we pepper spray their kids?
I doubt they directly pepper sprayed the kids, Im sure they were standing next to moron adults who got sprayed. Coppers just doing their job, kids cant pick parents.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 21, 2021, 07:56:59 pm
What about them?
Nothing, completely normal to smack coppers in the head.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 21, 2021, 08:06:37 pm
Simple. Don't use pepper spray if there are kids there.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 21, 2021, 08:14:39 pm
Simple. Don't use pepper spray if there are kids there.

Dont bring kids to a protest that is illegal.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 21, 2021, 08:23:30 pm
Dont bring kids to a protest that is illegal.

Agreed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on August 21, 2021, 08:45:15 pm
Simple. Don't use pepper spray if there are kids there.

Why do you think this fcktards bring their kids to this sort of thing? So they can hide behind them.

Disgusting.  I hope they’re investigated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 21, 2021, 08:56:47 pm
Anyway it's clear we're not all in this together lol.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on August 21, 2021, 09:10:09 pm
3 deaths in nsw today. 2 in their 90s the other in their 80s. 
But 800 plus cases is the headline act.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 21, 2021, 09:19:50 pm
3 deaths in nsw today. 2 in their 90s the other in their 80s. 
But 800 plus cases is the headline act.

We the people have done an amazing job in Victoria but get no credit.  Now we are just being shat on by a power hungry tyrant who is losing control and got himself involved in a pissing contest with the Federal and NSW governments.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on August 21, 2021, 09:32:56 pm
We the people have done an amazing job in Victoria but get no credit.  Now we are just being shat on by a power hungry tyrant who is losing control and got himself involved in a pissing contest with the Federal and NSW governments.

Yep and he just waits for the first opportunity to use the stupidity of a few idiots to enforce stricter and stricter rules which he can then loves to confirm this is why the lockdown is failing.

His a piece of work this bloke.

It’s not working Dan and it’s not going to when your wanting zero cases in the community.

But its our fault not his. Ever.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 21, 2021, 09:34:38 pm
Th floggings will continue until morale improves.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 21, 2021, 09:54:48 pm
My point is and has been all along that restrictions should be centred around protecting the biggest group at danger the elderly and the sick.
Now you are inventing another point that wasn't part of your earlier post.

The health authorities put the restrictions, lockdowns and curfews in place, using laws enacted by the politicians. They do so to protect the most value resource in a pandemic, our hospitals and health care staff. The tactic is designed to slow the rate of acute cases to avoid hospitals being overrun with cases. It's a pretty simple model to understand if you are reasonable.

It's not about the schools, businesses or social events, what good are they for those on ventilators or the dead?

Unfortunately, it's the dissenters and anti-vaxxers that scupper the progress towards reduced restrictions and COVID safe opening for small business.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 21, 2021, 10:43:28 pm
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta

I think we will have to get used to lockdowns and masks etc for a while, Israel are busy whacking 3rd doses of Pfizer into citizens and still have very high infection rates. There is no way known we will tolerate the same level of infections as Israel without lockdowns being used. Waning immunity is the major problem, the Israeli data is the best around as suggested and we all know that what happens overseas will be happening here eventually. The Government are going to have sell the idea of boosters sooner than later for those folk who got vaccinated early because Joe Average in Aus thinks when we have 70-80% vaccination rates here we can all stick on our party hats and call it job done...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on August 21, 2021, 10:58:46 pm
.
It's not about the schools, businesses or social events, what good are they for those on ventilators or the dead?


Omg. Nearly 8000 cases of Covid in under 19 year olds in aust.
Resulting in one death to a young man who sadly had a pre existing live threading Heath issues. Can you think rationally about that for a moment. 1 death in 8000 cases under 19. 1 death in under 19 year olds yet that age group is locked up in conditions that border on cruelty.

But hey that one death could be your family member so let’s continue on the way we are till there is no cases.

Absolute madness.

Like I keen saying lockdowns need to be proportionate and ours aren’t and this causes more rated young deaths then the virus ever would. 

That’s it for me on this one.

I will leave it there mate as I get too worked up.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 22, 2021, 04:04:33 am
Omg. Nearly 8000 cases of Covid in under 19 year olds in aust.
Resulting in one death to a young man who sadly had a pre existing live threading Heath issues.

I will leave it there mate as I get too worked up.
How come you're not worked up by the 7999?

Based on UK and USA figures about 30% get some form of long COVID, or nearly 2700 'kids'! Of that 2700 about 10% are going to have detectable heart, lung or nervous system damage, that is about 270 u19s that might suffer life long debilitating effects.

Despite all that damage to the kids, we still don't solve this by disrespecting those elders who have died, to state it is just 3 here or just 4 there is scandalous, if you want to debate that here, good luck!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 22, 2021, 10:21:23 am
Quote from: Seneca
Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass,
it is about learning to dance in the rain.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 22, 2021, 10:35:04 am
29,000 hospitalisations for the flu in some 7 months of 2017, but no one called it a “pandemic” (or wet the bed daily).

Today there are 514 in hospital for COVID.

1. https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/097F15A91C05FBE7CA2581E20017F09E/$File/2017-season-summary-22112017.pdf
2. https://health.gov.au/news/health-alerts/novel-coronavirus-2019-ncov-health-alert/coronavirus-covid-19-case-numbers-and-statistics

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 22, 2021, 10:46:26 am
29,000 hospitalisations for the flu in some 7 months of 2017, but no one called it a “pandemic” (or wet the bed daily).

Today there are 514 in hospital for COVID.
Yes, we didn't have lockdown for Influenza and look how bad things got, and that is for a disease with an R0 that is only a fraction of Sars-CoV-2! ;)

Luckily the lockdown and vaccines are working at slowing Sars-CoV-2, and now it looks like we will get an effective early treatment with several new drugs proving useful, the TGA has already approved Sotrovimab. But vaccines will remain the cheapest and safest option, and Sotrovimab can't be used for patients under 12 or under 40kg.

Sotrovimab is very expensive;
A single course which is 10 x 0.8ml intravenous doses costs about US$2200, the vaccines cost between $8 and $50 per dose.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 22, 2021, 11:07:29 am
Yes, we didn't have lockdown for Influenza and look how bad things got, and that is for a disease with an R0 that is only a fraction of Sars-CoV-2! ;)

Luckily the lockdown and vaccines are working at slowing Sars-CoV-2, and now it looks like we will get an effective early treatment with several new drugs proving useful, the TGA has already approved Sotrovimab. But vaccines will remain the cheapest and safest option, and Sotrovimab can't be used for patients under 12 or under 40kg.

Sotrovimab is very expensive;
A single course which is 10 x 0.8ml intravenous doses costs about US$2200, the vaccines cost between $8 and $50 per dose.

And again, you dismiss Ivermectin (or HCQ for  that matter).

Despite many world experts being adamant.

bird-group.org/health-professionals-resources/

Prof. Thomas Borody - https://covexit.com/australian-gps-can-legally-prescribe-ivermectin-triple-therapy-protocol-professor-borody/

(reckon this guy might know a tad more than you LP)

We wouldn't even have a problem at all.

But viable treatment options = no EUA = no bucks for the vaxx companies.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on August 22, 2021, 11:19:14 am
Yes, we didn't have lockdown for Influenza and look how bad things got, and that is for a disease with an R0 that is only a fraction of Sars-CoV-2! ;)

Luckily the lockdown and vaccines are working at slowing Sars-CoV-2, and now it looks like we will get an effective early treatment with several new drugs proving useful, the TGA has already approved Sotrovimab. But vaccines will remain the cheapest and safest option, and Sotrovimab can't be used for patients under 12 or under 40kg.

Sotrovimab is very expensive;
A single course which is 10 x 0.8ml intravenous doses costs about US$2200, the vaccines cost between $8 and $50 per dose.

And who makes Sotrovimab?

GSK, who (essentially) own Pfizer!

https://www.sotrovimab.com/

Safety - who knows!

https://www.sotrovimab.com/hcp/clinical-safety-variant-info/

Got an EUA, but has a safety profile history of a few weeks....hmmm.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 22, 2021, 12:09:37 pm
Until the Together study is in, STFU about ivermectin. But by all means feel free to swallow a handful of horse de-wormer if you want. After all, isn’t freedom just the right to kill yourself through stupidity?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 22, 2021, 12:12:37 pm
Anyway, I’m now double-vaxxed, so we can start vaccine passports now  :))
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 22, 2021, 12:41:17 pm
Many drugs and medicines are useful as part of a complimentary regime, they can be used to target complex illness that results from cross infections (known as comorbidity).

But being useful as a treatment for a comorbidity is a world away from a drug or medicine being effective against a specific virus or bacteria.

Piling together a swath of drugs and medicines in a complimentary regime to treat one single virus is a bit like opening a safe with a nuclear bomb! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 22, 2021, 01:34:45 pm
Israel keeps turning up as a terrific example of the efficacy of the vaccines, despite what the naysayers claim.

In early reports of a study following thousands of fully vaccinated health workers, only 2.6% of fully vaccinated health workers experienced breakthrough Sars-CoV-2 infections, and in each case that was following exposure to severely infected patients. In effect it shows full vaccination is truly demonstrating better than 95% efficacy as claimed by both Pfizer and AZ.

The vaccines aren't perfect, within the breakthrough group a percentage of them still suffer long term COVID-19 effects. But even so that percentage, about 10% of the 2.6%, is greatly reduced relative to the unvaccinated cohort. In effect only 0.27% of vaccinated experienced long term Sars-CoV-2 effects versus about 15% of the unvaccinated cohort!

The official report and final figures should be available within the next month or so.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on August 22, 2021, 01:58:11 pm
The protest yesterday in Melbourne was illegal.  The opposition leader is in a dilemma.  Do I come out and condemn the protest and those that attended and lose more support among our supporter base?  Or do I stay silent, inferring support of an illegal activity.  If I support the action and am a leader, should I have attended?

As he has stayed silent, does he support the action?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on August 22, 2021, 02:09:22 pm
All the numbers about who is hospitalised and the death rates always ignore this fact - the hospitals themselves say they are stretch to capacity at the rate they’re getting now - we are seeing the Royal Melb have a case that infected a health care worker and now X amount of hospital staff have to quarantine for two weeks so now your workforce is down X amounts - health care professionals aren’t an infinite resource.  In fact I have read somewhere along the way that nurses are quitting in droves, sick and tired of watching people actively work against their own best interests and these poor workers then having to pay the price.

So we open up and let it rip - are you happy to gasp for oxygen at home or watch your loved one go through the same, because there’ll be no room for them? Add in if you’ve unfortunately got a medical condition that requires you to have Drs and nurses look after or your loved ones does, are you happy for them to have to make do at home with what you have on hand because there is no room/drs/nurses to help you?

Until we’re all vaccinated and they find a better way that this horrid thing can be treated from
Home, we can’t just let it rip.

Honestly - let’s listen to the medical people - I don’t see what they have to Gain - most are exhausted and just trying to do their job!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 22, 2021, 03:34:11 pm
All the numbers about who is hospitalised and the death rates always ignore this fact - the hospitals themselves say they are stretch to capacity at the rate they’re getting now - we are seeing the Royal Melb have a case that infected a health care worker and now X amount of hospital staff have to quarantine for two weeks so now your workforce is down X amounts - health care professionals aren’t an infinite resource.  In fact I have read somewhere along the way that nurses are quitting in droves, sick and tired of watching people actively work against their own best interests and these poor workers then having to pay the price.

So we open up and let it rip - are you happy to gasp for oxygen at home or watch your loved one go through the same, because there’ll be no room for them? Add in if you’ve unfortunately got a medical condition that requires you to have Drs and nurses look after or your loved ones does, are you happy for them to have to make do at home with what you have on hand because there is no room/drs/nurses to help you?

Until we’re all vaccinated and they find a better way that this horrid thing can be treated from
Home, we can’t just let it rip.

Honestly - let’s listen to the medical people - I don’t see what they have to Gain - most are exhausted and just trying to do their job!
Re: the latter, shortage in ICU/ER nurses, they are leaving the job and the system is stretched..

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 23, 2021, 10:28:48 am
A conservative radio host in the US fell for the Anti-Vax/Ivermectin idiocy: Conservative Radio Host Who Mocked Vaccines Dies of COVID-19 (https://www.thedailybeast.com/conservative-radio-host-phil-valentine-who-recorded-beatles-parody-about-vaccines-dies-from-coronavirus), Daily Beast.

Quote
He had said of the vaccine, “I have a very low risk of A) Getting COVID and B) dying of it if I do. Why would I risk getting a heart attack or paralysis by getting the vaccine?” He also said at the time that he had been taking the anti-parasite medication ivermectin, a drug that comes in different forms for animals and humans. The drug has recently been touted as a sort of COVID miracle cure by conservatives, despite no solid evidence it is effective against the virus and health officials sounding the alarm over people poisoning themselves with the animal version of the drug.

Not a great advertisement for Ivermectin. But if I were a test-tube, I’d rush out and buy it because it has cured a lot of test-tubes apparently.

Unfortunately for Phil Valentine, he was sucked in by the conservative con. He should have realised that he just needed to say he was against vaccines and for Ivermectin: he should have got himself vaccinated while telling his audience that they should refuse the vaccine. Republicans in Congress refuse to say whether they’ve been vaccinated on the grounds that the legislation protecting medical confidentiality prevents them from answering that question (which it doesn’t). It turns out they can have their cake and eat it too. They can win praise from Anti-Vaxxers while keeping themselves safe.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 23, 2021, 11:20:28 am
I'm somewhat buoyed by NSW holding the figures to 800 cases a day, presuming they are genuine, once it gets into those numbers it's hard to tell what is accurate. However, I'll reserve getting to excited given they only mandated masks for the first time today! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 23, 2021, 03:46:47 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/you-are-not-a-cow-warning-over-use-of-livestock-anti-worm-drug-in-the-us-20210823-p58l3i.html

Just remember ladies and gents - you are not cows. Moo.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on August 23, 2021, 03:53:53 pm
Yea I saw that report 😂 you can’t make this stuff up!

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/21/us/phil-valentine-dies-covid.html

This is just - whst!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 23, 2021, 03:54:15 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/premier-abandon-your-plans-to-open-up-when-we-hit-6-million-jabs-20210822-p58kxb.html

This is more for NSW, but clearly the principle is applicable in all States.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 23, 2021, 04:05:08 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/premier-abandon-your-plans-to-open-up-when-we-hit-6-million-jabs-20210822-p58kxb.html

This is more for NSW, but clearly the principle is applicable in all States.
With Burythemall in charge I really can't work out what is a valid statement. Lots of statements seem to have a lifetime of about a week, usually prefaced by we aren't going to make the same mistakes as Victoria, or we won't be going down that track, until they do!

It's like,
Never ending stalling - Lal lal laaaa lal lal la lal lal la!
Never ending stalling - Lal lal laaaa lal lal la lal lal la!
Never ending stalling - Lal lal laaaa lal lal la lal lal la!
Never ending stalling - Lal lal laaaa lal lal la lal lal la!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 23, 2021, 04:20:44 pm
https://theconversation.com/how-will-delta-evolve-heres-what-the-theory-tells-us-165243

This article gives a pretty good layperson's introduction.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 25, 2021, 11:02:27 am
https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/the-fate-of-astrazeneca-s-vaccine-business-is-in-the-balance-20210825-p58lna.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 25, 2021, 11:11:08 am
https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/the-fate-of-astrazeneca-s-vaccine-business-is-in-the-balance-20210825-p58lna.html
Think AstraZ is dead in the water, even here people are cancelling their AZ appointments hoping to get Pfizer.
Been some business talk that Moderna may partner with CSL, the former usually partner with another company rather than having their own production facilities as they are a smaller operation unlike Pfizer who have and build their own labs.
Going to be good money in Booster shots, wonder how long the Government will continue to subsidise vaccinations..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 25, 2021, 11:19:27 am
Think AstraZ is dead in the water, even here people are cancelling their AZ appointments hoping to get Pfizer.
Been some business talk that Moderna may partner with CSL, the former usually partner with another company rather than having their own production facilities as they are a smaller operation unlike Pfizer who have and build their own labs.
Going to be good money in Booster shots, wonder how long the Government will continue to subsidise vaccinations..

I still think it's a shame it's come to this. Lots of hysteria about a very low chance of problems.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 25, 2021, 11:23:43 am
It’ll be interesting to read a history of Covid vaccines, but we’ll have to wait a few years for that so the dust can settle.

There was a news story about concerns that Moderna might have a problem with myocarditis. It’s interesting there have been no concerns over Pfizer. If only I could fire up the Delorean and grab me a copy of the authoritative history of Covid vaccines to see whether that has been a triumph of science or a tribute to PR.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on August 25, 2021, 11:27:59 am
I’m off for my 2nd AZ this arvo, if I don’t come back tell Teaguey I love him…
🤣
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 25, 2021, 11:31:13 am
It’ll be interesting to read a history of Covid vaccines, but we’ll have to wait a few years for that so the dust can settle.

There was a news story about concerns that Moderna might have a problem with myocarditis. It’s interesting there have been no concerns over Pfizer.
None reported by the media is not the same as none, but like AZ the risk is very very low.

I looked into this a few weeks back, I haven't seen recent figures but a month or two back in Australia we had effectively just as many serious vaccine side-effect ICU cases for Pfizer as we had for AZ. The Pfizer cases were almost all myocarditis related with one or two related to clots, the AZ cases were all related to clots.

Apparently this is better than normal for any vaccine, if they were all given in such numbers in such a short time frame we'd find the same or worse for Influenza, Measles, even Tetanus shots.

I didn't know this until a few weeks back but apparently issuing Tetanus shots are already limited in some way to avoid serious side-effects.

There is so much reporting now it's becoming harder and harder to find specific items, but if you are lucky and give it a try you'll find these figures somewhere in official reports a month or so back.

PS; There is a clear differential appearing between the effects of 1st and 2nd shots. For AZ if you have no bad reaction to the 1st shot your effectively clear for the 2nd shot with hardly any 2nd shot AZ reactions appearing. The exact opposite appears to apply for Pfizer, for Pfizer the 1st shot has less reactions than the 2nd shot, with more serious side-effects coming from the 2nd shot. The effect / differential is so strong that some scientists think we should be cross vaccinating.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 25, 2021, 11:34:02 am
I’m off for my 2nd AZ this arvo, if I don’t come back tell Teaguey I love him…
🤣

Good luck matey. I'm sure you'll be fine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 25, 2021, 11:47:03 am
Wouldn’t it be amusing if heroin or speed addicts are among the Anti-Vaxxers?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on August 25, 2021, 12:03:08 pm
Wouldn’t it be amusing if heroin or speed addicts are among the Anti-Vaxxers?

Experimenting with recreational drugs is fine… according to some 🤪
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on August 25, 2021, 12:10:18 pm
I’m off for my 2nd AZ this arvo, if I don’t come back tell Teaguey I love him…
🤣

I had mine the other day.  The worst part about the first shot was taking off the bandaid.  They didn't put a bandaid on after the second one...Good luck, NB.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 25, 2021, 12:10:35 pm
Come to think of it, the Opiod epidemic is a big thing in the Deep South States that are havens for the Anti-Vaxxers. I can just imagine them munching on Oxycodone while sharing vaccine conspiracy stories. And then there are those who are happy to swallow horse dewormer but won’t take the vaccine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on August 25, 2021, 12:15:16 pm
Come to think of it, the Opiod epidemic is a big thing in the Deep South States that are havens for the Anti-Vaxxers. I can just imagine them munching on Oxycodone while sharing vaccine conspiracy stories. And then there are those who are happy to swallow horse dewormer but won’t take the vaccine.

I suspect there’s a cause and effect between the drug use and drug rejection amongst the addled…
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 25, 2021, 12:31:12 pm
And then there are those who are happy to swallow horse dewormer but won’t take the vaccine.
You don't have to swallow.

Cheap as Chips from the local Feed Store, comes in a giant syringe with a long rubber tube you can attach, can be absorbed several ways so there are several administering options! ;D

On a more serious note, that little rise in NSW is a bit of a worry, the number has ever so slightly gone in the wrong direction a few days after a weekend of protests and escapees. If NSW can keep it stable they have done well, but it could be on the rise again by the weekend.

Last weeks prediction was possibly 2000 NSW cases a day by the end of this week, there are some on the NSW health side questioning the figures as possibly under-reporting, but I think they look legit if not perhaps a bit delayed, especially given the regional spread now you might find the numbers are lagging.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on August 25, 2021, 12:43:52 pm
You don't have to swallow.

Cheap as Chips from the local Feed Store, comes in a giant syringe with a long rubber tube you can attach, can be absorbed several ways so there are several administering options! ;D

On a more serious note, that little rise in NSW is a bit of a worry, the number has ever so slightly gone in the wrong direction a few days after a weekend of protests and escapees. If NSW can keep it stable they have done well, but it could be on the rise again by the weekend.

Last weeks prediction was possibly 2000 NSW cases a day by the end of this week, there are some on the NSW health side questioning the figures as possibly under-reporting, but I think they look legit if not perhaps a bit delayed, especially given the regional spread now you might find the numbers are lagging.
Apparently found in Merimbula waste water and MP there rightly saying it’s very bad!

Merimbula you’d think have a big elderly population - this is not great 😞
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 25, 2021, 01:00:37 pm
I’m off for my 2nd AZ this arvo, if I don’t come back tell Teaguey I love him…
🤣
I've just had my first Pfizer 10 minutes ago.
No 2nd head yet....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on August 25, 2021, 01:47:14 pm
It won't happen overnight, Krud, but it will happen!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 25, 2021, 01:50:10 pm
It won't happen overnight, Krud, but it will happen!
I'll keep you posted if any lumps start to form.

1 hour on and not even a sore arm.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on August 25, 2021, 01:57:38 pm
In seriousness, my brother and SIL had no issues after their first Pfizer.  After the second, my brother got some severe headaches and had to be driven home - lasted maybe 24 hours, SIL had no issues.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 25, 2021, 02:33:40 pm
I've just had my first Pfizer 10 minutes ago.
No 2nd head yet....

I had no reaction from my first shot but I didn't feel well after the second.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on August 25, 2021, 02:50:34 pm
I had a very sore arm after my second Pfizer but that was it.  Partner had a headache for a few days but nothing major.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 29, 2021, 12:08:53 pm
Gladys Burythemall the Wicked Witch of The Shire casts her spell to snuff out the lives of few more unwanted residents of The Land of In-Between.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9a/47/30/9a4730ae8704c661cd57a68c2caf75b7.gif)
Let them eat cake!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on August 29, 2021, 12:12:37 pm
I had a very sore arm after my second Pfizer but that was it.  Partner had a headache for a few days but nothing major.

Were the two connected Mickey?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 29, 2021, 12:28:11 pm
1200 new cases in NSW today, 6 deaths and one breakthrough death with a fully vaccinated victim. Victoria extending the lockdown with around 90 cases announced today. Scary stuff in NSW and looks like its going be lockdown for both states for a long while yet.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 29, 2021, 12:58:13 pm
1200 new cases in NSW today, 6 deaths and one breakthrough death with a fully vaccinated victim. Victoria extending the lockdown with around 90 cases announced today. Scary stuff in NSW and looks like its going be lockdown for both states for a long while yet.

They will hit the 70 or 80 percent (whichever it is) vaccination target before us. They will come out of lockdown in November, we will probably be locked down for Christmas.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on August 29, 2021, 01:36:20 pm
1200 new cases in NSW today, 6 deaths and one breakthrough death with a fully vaccinated victim. Victoria extending the lockdown with around 90 cases announced today. Scary stuff in NSW and looks like its going be lockdown for both states for a long while yet.

About 10 days ago when NSW was averaging about 750 new cases a day, an epidemiologist in Sydney said he expected 1200 cases a day by the end of August and 4000 cases a day by the end of September.

His first forecast is correct.  If the figures trend towards his second forecast the NSW hospital system will be completely overrun before new shipments of vaccine arrive in October.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 29, 2021, 03:16:22 pm
They will hit the 70 or 80 percent (whichever it is) vaccination target before us. They will come out of lockdown in November, we will probably be locked down for Christmas.
Not sure even with high vaccination rates that some states will put away the lockdown tool. Israel are struggling with the vaccinated getting infected and having to give boosters due to the vaccine waning in protection. Australia wont tolerate the case numbers and deaths IMO that are still going to happen with 70-80% vaccination rates.
ScoMo is going to have to sell the idea of losing some cattle to get to the other side of the mountain....kids under 12 are going to be also vaccinated and trials are on overseas so its a long way from being over IMHO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 29, 2021, 03:18:53 pm
About 10 days ago when NSW was averaging about 750 new cases a day, an epidemiologist in Sydney said he expected 1200 cases a day by the end of August and 4000 cases a day by the end of September.

His first forecast is correct.  If the figures trend towards his second forecast the NSW hospital system will be completely overrun before new shipments of vaccine arrive in October.

We hit 80 cases 12 days quicker than they did so god help us.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 29, 2021, 04:04:36 pm
We hit 80 cases 12 days quicker than they did so god help us.
NSW took 6 weeks longer to get to a half-ar5ed level of lockdown, they only required outdoor facemasks 14 day ago!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 29, 2021, 04:08:18 pm
NSW took 6 weeks longer to get to a half-ar5ed level of lockdown, they only required outdoor facemasks 14 day ago!

and yet we have gone up quicker.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 29, 2021, 04:11:07 pm
and yet we have gone up quicker.
I'm not sure what your point is, what are you predicting or trying to compare?

Are you saying Vic testing and tracing is better, or are you asserting NSW have their hands over their eyes?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on August 29, 2021, 04:27:15 pm
and yet we have gone up quicker.

Yep another Dan lie.

He criticised NSW of waiting before locking down hard constantly banging on how we don’t want to be like them and that the only way to treat Covid is to lock down fast and hard which ensures the lockdown will be short and we don’t have to go in and out if lockdowns because no one wants that. Those were his words. How did that one work out dan?

That was over a month ago and we are about to cop another extension. Do his words ever match the reality.  Surely now anyone with half a brain doesn’t trust or listen to a word he says.

And again case numbers are the scaring tool to lock us down like prisoners but I’m curious how many deaths in Victoria had this dangerous deadly virus taken in Victoria during lockdown 6? 
I’m interested as I know (according to Dan) its a
deadly virus that forced him for our safety to add banning children playgrounds to his list of lockdowns.

I’m guessing the number is massive.

 🤡 show goes on.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 29, 2021, 04:52:32 pm
I'm not sure what your point is, what are you predicting or trying to compare?

Are you saying Vic testing and tracing is better, or are you asserting NSW have their hands over their eyes?

Dan says we don't want to be like NSW but we are locked down like them. We have been locked down more than anyone.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 29, 2021, 04:55:54 pm
Dan says we don't want to be like NSW but we are locked down like them. We have been locked down more than anyone.
I still do not get your point, are you saying Vic is worse off than NSW or that Vic is hiding the case numbers?

NZ is locked down harder than Vic or NSW, and has locked down harder than Australia on every occasion, but they have 83 cases today faster than either Vic or NSW, they are a tiny country with cities 1/5th the size of Melbourne or Sydney. But what does it mean, what is your point?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 29, 2021, 05:03:50 pm
NZ? We have been locked down for over 200 days.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 29, 2021, 05:08:34 pm
NZ? We have been locked down for over 200 days.
Yes what does that mean, are you saying Victorians do not obey lockdowns?

As I understand, NZ or parts of it is now up to about day 150 of lockdown. But even so I do not get the specific relevance, some locations around the globe have never locked down, and others have bene locked down for almost a year.

If you are trying to make a point, what is it?

Are you saying Sars-CoV-2 behaves differently south of the Murray River?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 29, 2021, 05:11:17 pm
Andrews will dream up any excuse to keep us that way ... real or imagined.  But Berejiklians addresses become more bizarre by the day.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 29, 2021, 05:17:43 pm
Andrews will dream up any excuse to keep us that way ... real or imagined.  But Berejiklians addresses become more bizarre by the day.
Burythemall is starting to use Fawlty Towers like strategies in the daily press conference, "Don't mention the War!"

Dan is more the "Awwww, I don't like it Jim, I don't like it one bit!" type, you can tell he is a farmer use to talking about the weather!

I'm not sure there is any direct comparison that can be made the really means anything.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 29, 2021, 05:52:51 pm
and yet we have gone up quicker.

What do you expect when you have mass gatherings of thousands of people educated from social media protesting in the streets for their 'freedom'?

Super spreading event accelerating transmissions in the community.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 29, 2021, 06:05:00 pm
What do you expect when you have mass gatherings of thousands of people educated from social media protesting in the streets for their 'freedom'?

Super spreading event accelerating transmissions in the community.

I expected us to do better the NSW because we have been mocking them for a month.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 29, 2021, 06:29:13 pm
I expected us to do better the NSW because we have been mocking them for a month.

I dont think the virus cares about how much mocking people do.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 29, 2021, 06:34:38 pm
I dont think the virus cares about how much mocking people do.

Ok Dan.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 29, 2021, 06:59:34 pm
Ok Dan.

This is the best you've got?

Now either you are suggesting that Covid has become self aware, or you simply do not have a comback to an obvious flaw in your logic.

Your political preference should have no impact on your logic reasoning.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 29, 2021, 07:01:19 pm
Ok Dan.
I think you're just being disruptive.

I thought you would have offered a valid point, but you are just stoking the flames of certain uncertainty. Facebook is the best place for that sort of discussion, lots of ra ra and little substance.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 29, 2021, 07:08:59 pm
I think you're just being disruptive.

I thought you would have offered a valid point, but you are just stoking the flames of certain uncertainty. Facebook is the best place for that sort of discussion, lots of ra ra and little substance.

Sounds a lot like you actually.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 29, 2021, 07:12:23 pm
Sounds a lot like you actually.
I genuinely asked you about the point you were trying to make, and you just responded with rhetoric which has now come across as disingenuous.

If in some context the numbers really mean anything, relative to the bulk of our lockdowns now almost 12 months ago, I'd really like to know. Also in the context of the original strain versus Delta.

I'm not sure any valid comparison can be made.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 29, 2021, 07:23:28 pm
You weren't being genuine LP so cut the bull.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 29, 2021, 07:24:48 pm
You weren't being genuine LP so cut the bull.
There is no bull, nobody is laughing, it's not a joking matter!

I'll re-ask my original questions about the fastest to 80 or so cases point that you made;

 - I'm not sure what your point is, what are you predicting or trying to compare?

 - Are you saying Vic testing and tracing is better, or are you asserting NSW have their hands over their eyes?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 29, 2021, 07:44:41 pm
The point is made, you know this.

Dan mocked Sydney about their lockdown not being strong enough and that's the reason they're in the crap but we are tracking worse despite our stronger lockdown.
Our government were too busy looking at Sydney (They don't really look at us by the way, it's a one way rivalry kind of like us and Adelaide) that they fell asleep at the vaccination wheel. Today Dan is trying to blame Scomo for lack of supply despite everyday this week saying how many thousands of available appointments we have. (Which was the best thing he has done)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 29, 2021, 07:46:26 pm
The point is made, you know this.

Dan mocked Sydney about their lockdown not being strong enough and that's the reason they're in the crap but we are tracking worse despite our stronger lockdown.
Our government were too busy looking at Sydney (They don't really look at us by the way, it's a one way rivalry kind of like us and Adelaide) that they fell asleep at the vaccination wheel. Today Dan is trying to blame Scomo for lack of supply despite everyday this week saying how many thousands of available appointments we have. (Which was the best thing he has done)

It doesn't matter what Dan says if people continue to flaunt the rules and protest.

What part of this do people not get through their head?
Its not about politics, its about staying the F*** home!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 29, 2021, 08:11:08 pm
Preaching to the converted.

The problem is the 95% of people doing the right thing are starting to get pissed off. Certain cultures don't give a toss what Dan says, I don't like him but I obey his rules. An Indian guy I work with slipped up the other day when he put on facebook his daughter's birthday cake being cut. 7 year old daughter, his wife and himself were in the pic and his wife was holding a baby. AT work I asked him who the baby was? His niece was the answer. Okay I said and I guess the parents where there, obviously one took the picture. Yeah he said nervously, they're our "bubble family." This guy is an engineer, he's not stupid but he would get away with it because of cultural issues.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 29, 2021, 08:22:26 pm
I think you're heading into dangerous territory there MBB, but the greater issue is not that the territory is dangerous, more that it's simply incorrect. This can rapidly and easily descend into simply trading anecdotes, rather than an understanding of incorrect / unlawful / disobedient behavior as being independent of culture or race.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 29, 2021, 08:33:39 pm
I think you're heading into dangerous territory there MBB, but the greater issue is not that the territory is dangerous, more that it's simply incorrect. This can rapidly and easily descend into simply trading anecdotes, rather than an understanding of incorrect / unlawful / disobedient behavior as being independent of culture or race.

What?  No.  Don't bother.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on August 29, 2021, 10:37:47 pm
Preaching to the converted.

The problem is the 95% of people doing the right thing are starting to get pissed off. Certain cultures don't give a toss what Dan says, I don't like him but I obey his rules. An Indian guy I work with slipped up the other day when he put on facebook his daughter's birthday cake being cut. 7 year old daughter, his wife and himself were in the pic and his wife was holding a baby. AT work I asked him who the baby was? His niece was the answer. Okay I said and I guess the parents where there, obviously one took the picture. Yeah he said nervously, they're our "bubble family." This guy is an engineer, he's not stupid but he would get away with it because of cultural issues.
Are you being serious here?

Okay a bunch of 20yo wannabe female influencers had a party and put it on Instagram, in Victoria. They were white dumb arses.

Harry Garside, medal winning boxer - white Australian - took himself off to the cop shop this morning because as another idiot he had a party with his mates last night and again put it on social media. Has taken full responsibility for his stupidity and has accepted what I assume is $5,000 fine from each of his guests.

A bunch of jockeys partying in an Air bnb in Mornington a few days ago - white Australian.

Commonality here is - white Australian. And Stupid. And selfish!

So rather than blaming Dan l, who doesn’t actually make our health orders, just follows them - how about you direct your anger and frustration where it should be. Selfish arseholes - whether they’re anti vaxxers or just entitled.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 29, 2021, 10:39:11 pm
Preaching to the converted.

The problem is the 95% of people doing the right thing are starting to get pissed off.
Yes, 95% of people are starting to get pissed off.....at the 5% (and growing) who are not doing the right thing.

I had a lengthy and somewhat heated debate with my cousin over facebook the other day about this whole thing. He was one of those wankers who went to the protest. He was spouting all the social media schooled nonsense about vaccines causing autism etc etc etc. My body my choice. Me me me.
He told me he's done his research and has some doctors and scientists on his side and told me to do my research. There were a few other people involved in the argument too.
One of those people was my cousin on the other side of the family, who happens to be a doctor. My auntie (his mum) who is a vet. My wife, who is a scientist, a microbioligist who works at a company who helps make various vaccines. Despite providing him with peer-reviewed evidence, backed up by scientists and doctors i knew and are not part of some 'cover-up', he knew better.  ::)

Point i'm making is this.
Some people cannot be taught.
Some people cannot be told.
Some people cannot be 'normal'.

These are the people that are ruining it for everyone else.

Now, you keep blaming Dan Andrews and some words he has said about NSW or whatever. Answer me this...What the hell do you expect Dan Andrews to do with 'those types'?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on August 29, 2021, 10:48:14 pm
Nsw are f’kd.

And gladbag is so stubborn she won’t revert from her plan - and you know because she f’kd up so badly and how many doses of vax had to be diverted to help them get their people vaxed, literally people in regional NSW had their vax taken off them because of her stupidity!

Scumo grovelled to Poland and got a million doses, 500k went straight to NSW - are you happy as a Victorian that the PM throws all his support into NSW and nothing to others? I presume you’re a lib voter, you’re okay with scumo don’t hold a hose, doing that?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 29, 2021, 10:52:29 pm
Just on the vaccine.....shortage now.

I got my 1st the other day as i posted in this thread (still no side effects BTW) as i was getting stuck i asked when the next one is supposed to be. She said to book it only for about 3-4 weeks away. Done.

...or so i thought.

Earliest you can book now is 6 weeks away.

About the same day Dan Andrews said that all year 12 students are going to be vax'd before their exams start......so now there is a mad rush for everyone and no time/doses to do it.

Largely due to NSW and binchicken up there.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on August 29, 2021, 10:54:39 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/nothing-in-our-studies-ever-prepared-us-for-this-a-nurse-on-sydney-s-frontline-tells-it-like-it-is-20210827-p58mha.html

Yep, let’s learn to live with it.

Too bad if you don’t get a bed or oxygen if you need it - for Covid or some other condition. Tough crap hey? Let’s not actually listen to the people working their guts out trying to keep us safe and healthy.

Nah let’s listen to that pork barrelling binchicken!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 29, 2021, 10:59:27 pm
Further to my post before re facebook argument...with nuffies.

There was a radio guy in the US who is 'one of them'. I wish i could remember his name, but i barely took it in.
On his show he was anti vax, PLANdemic blah blah. Backed himself in against the virus, no masks the whole 9 yards.
Karma bus hit him.
Got Covid
....and died.

Like a bunch of lemmings....follow him straight over the cliff!*


* side note.....thats actually a myth. Lemmings don't do that, its based on some movie from forever ago and it found its way into the public as 'fact'.....just like vaccines and autism!

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 29, 2021, 11:01:01 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/nothing-in-our-studies-ever-prepared-us-for-this-a-nurse-on-sydney-s-frontline-tells-it-like-it-is-20210827-p58mha.html

Yep, let’s learn to live with it.

Too bad if you don’t get a bed or oxygen if you need it - for Covid or some other condition. Tough crap hey? Let’s not actually listen to the people working their guts out trying to keep us safe and healthy.

Nah let’s listen to that pork barrelling binchicken!
The people wanting the end of lockdown aren't considering the consequences for Joe Average, Burythemall and Scomo carry little risk, they'll get a private bed and oxygen, we aren't going to run out like India or Indonesia.

But we won't have staff in hospitals to service everyone, Joe Average, Uncle Amir, Nono and Nona, bad luck for them.

The staff are already overloaded, they don't need the numbers to double, and the models says things will go up five or ten fold! Sure they might not die, many have been vaccinated, but months and months of overloaded hospitals driving broken good hearted staff out of the game!

The Norbits though want their Brunswick St coffee, brunch dates, a pot at the pub, illegal burnouts, a bitch has gotta shop the bros have to pump their iron, the entitled self is more important than all others for any reason at any level of risk, until ........................ Until they realise the cost and then we all know the very same people will bitch like cut snakes at being abandoned. Facebook lied to them, it wasn't their fault, Dan's not helping me! Another certainty just like the sunrise!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 29, 2021, 11:01:43 pm
Just on the vaccine.....shortage now.

I got my 1st the other day as i posted in this thread (still no side effects BTW) as i was getting stuck i asked when the next one is supposed to be. She said to book it only for about 3-4 weeks away. Done.

...or so i thought.

Earliest you can book now is 6 weeks away.

About the same day Dan Andrews said that all year 12 students are going to be vax'd before their exams start......so now there is a mad rush for everyone and no time/doses to do it.

Largely due to NSW and binchicken up there.
Technically there is a shortage but there are bulk cancellations and you just have to know someone who is in the know or check with local clinics through the day and you can get an appointment. There is a website that also lists appointments at all the clinics but you have to be quick as people want Pfizer and those Pfizer clinic appointments get filled extra quick.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 29, 2021, 11:13:56 pm
Technically there is a shortage but there are bulk cancellations and you just have to know someone who is in the know or check with local clinics through the day and you can get an appointment. There is a website that also lists appointments at all the clinics but you have to be quick as people want Pfizer and those Pfizer clinic appointments get filled extra quick.

I looked for the next appointment as soon as i got home and it was 6 weeks.

I tried a few different places to get the 2nd jab and they were all 6 weeks. The same exact day. Not a single appointment between any of them earlier than that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on August 29, 2021, 11:16:16 pm
https://news.yahoo.com/texas-anti-mask-freedom-rally-045722778.html

This guy? Protesting his freeeeeedoms!

Well now he is free of any authority at all and his wife is free of a husband and his 3, soon to be 4, children are free of their dad

Blooody stupid. And avoidable.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 29, 2021, 11:24:02 pm
https://news.yahoo.com/texas-anti-mask-freedom-rally-045722778.html

This guy? Protesting his freeeeeedoms!

Well now he is free of any authority at all and his wife is free of a husband and his 3, soon to be 4, children are free of their dad

Blooody stupid. And avoidable.
What can we do to stop this rubbish happening, bad enough that he hurts himself, but his family are in many ways innocent victims, certainly the kids are innocent victims. There will be people he's been in contact with before he ended up hospitalised that are also unwell.

Social media has a lot to answer for, in the long run the people in the big house are going to go after the likes of FB and YouTube! When this is all done the politicians, particularly the USA, will want to hang somebody, it's their culture!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 29, 2021, 11:25:30 pm
I looked for the next appointment as soon as i got home and it was 6 weeks.

I tried a few different places to get the 2nd jab and they were all 6 weeks. The same exact day. Not a single appointment between any of them earlier than that.
You have to be at the clinics around 4.30pm if you can be bothered or ring late in the day to check the cancellations....they have to throw Pfizer vials out due to expiry reasons and there are often leftovers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 29, 2021, 11:33:09 pm
You have to be at the clinics around 4.30pm if you can be bothered or ring late in the day to check the cancellations....they have to throw Pfizer vials out due to expiry reasons and there are often leftovers.
I've booked now. Its not a huge issue, i just wanted it sooner and needed the certainty of when i can get it and plan work around it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 29, 2021, 11:34:38 pm
https://news.yahoo.com/texas-anti-mask-freedom-rally-045722778.html

This guy? Protesting his freeeeeedoms!

Well now he is free of any authority at all and his wife is free of a husband and his 3, soon to be 4, children are free of their dad

Blooody stupid. And avoidable.
The story i read the guy had already died.

Its highly likely there is more than 1 in the same boat.

But that is basically the same thing i was talking about, yes.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 29, 2021, 11:38:57 pm
Follow up.....that guy did die.
https://news.yahoo.com/caleb-wallace-anti-mask-freedom-005759054.html
Quote
“He was so hard-headed,” Jessica Wallace told the Standard-Times. “He didn’t want to see a doctor, because he didn’t want to be part of the statistics with COVID tests.”

Caleb Wallace had been a vocal opponent to pandemic restrictions and mandates, appearing in interviews criticizing school closures and mask policies as well as organizing a July 4 “Freedom Rally” last year to protest government restrictions. He also founded “The San Angelo Freedom Defenders,” a group that hosted a separate rally last year to “end COVID tyranny.”
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 30, 2021, 05:07:12 am
They changed it to 6 weeks between doses for Pfizer.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 30, 2021, 06:42:15 am
And NSW have racked up 17 million in fines.  Like it
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 30, 2021, 06:53:01 am
Are you being serious here?

Okay a bunch of 20yo wannabe female influencers had a party and put it on Instagram, in Victoria. They were white dumb arses.

Harry Garside, medal winning boxer - white Australian - took himself off to the cop shop this morning because as another idiot he had a party with his mates last night and again put it on social media. Has taken full responsibility for his stupidity and has accepted what I assume is $5,000 fine from each of his guests.

A bunch of jockeys partying in an Air bnb in Mornington a few days ago - white Australian.

Commonality here is - white Australian. And Stupid. And selfish!

So rather than blaming Dan l, who doesn’t actually make our health orders, just follows them - how about you direct your anger and frustration where it should be. Selfish arseholes - whether they’re anti vaxxers or just entitled.

Yeah named, shamed, suspended, fined.

Protesters were fired upon with rubber bullets, arrested, fined.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 30, 2021, 08:07:50 am
.....just like vaccines and autism!
A deliberate act of fraud by an anti-vax researcher / doctor.

There is a group of individuals who believe medical technology is the cause of global overpopulation and poverty, too many people dividing not enough resources, so they follow an ethos of campaigning to remove stuff that keeps people alive to return the world to a state of natural attrition. They do this under a guise of spreading a false message about harm these medical interventions allegedly do in an effort to scare people away from all treatments.

The irony here is that the guy who published the false autism claims, allegedly had a severe accident on a bike and called the ambulance! You can all die, but he must be saved it seems!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 30, 2021, 09:35:37 am
A deliberate act of fraud by an anti-vax researcher / doctor.

There is a group of individuals who believe medical technology is the cause of global overpopulation and poverty, too many people dividing not enough resources, so they follow an ethos of campaigning to remove stuff that keeps people alive to return the world to a state of natural attrition. They do this under a guise of spreading a false message about harm these medical interventions allegedly do in an effort to scare people away from all treatments.

The irony here is that the guy who published the false autism claims, allegedly had a severe accident on a bike and called the ambulance! You can all die, but he must be saved it seems!

FWIW, i did some research into that. Supposedly the 'study' that this whole thing stemmed from was done on a study of 12, yep count them, 12 people. Clearly insignificant results that could not be used to verify anything. Of course it failed peer reviews and studies of 1.5mil (instead of 12) clearly prove otherwise. The guys behind the study admit defeat but the damage was done.

....and now wannabe, self educated youtube 'scientists' and their leader Jenny McCarthy say otherwise....and people who don't know better continue to peddle false claims.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 30, 2021, 09:38:07 am
-
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 30, 2021, 09:40:04 am
There was a radio guy in the US who is 'one of them'. I wish i could remember his name, but i barely took it in.
On his show he was anti vax, PLANdemic blah blah. Backed himself in against the virus, no masks the whole 9 yards.
Karma bus hit him.
Got Covid
....and died.
Phil Valentine. What shocks me is that he was taking Ivermectin and he still got Covid  :-*
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 30, 2021, 09:44:32 am
Phil Valentine. What shocks me is that he was taking Ivermectin and he still got Covid  :-*
Thats the one i was talking about!

Not surprised there is a couple of similar types who fit the bill.  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on August 30, 2021, 09:47:27 am
Sample size of n = 12 says it all really doesn't it Kruddler.   Wonder why it didn't pass peer review?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 30, 2021, 09:48:53 am
Sample size of n = 12 says it all really doesn't it Kruddler.   Wonder why it didn't pass peer review?
It SHOULD say it all.

However, we have seen that 'small details' like that mean nothing to the youtube generation! They always know better!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 30, 2021, 10:40:22 am
There's an interesting background to Trump's famously idiotic question about whether disinfectant could be injected into the body to clean the system of Covid.

It seems that conmen trying to sell bleach as a cure for autism had repurposed it as a Covid cure. That wasn't too hard as they were  promoting it on the basis that "it can cure 99% of all illnesses including cancer, malaria, HIV/Aids as well as autism". Man, he should be up for the Nobel Prize. Makes you wonder what the 1% of illnesses it didn't treat were ...

So the chief conman, "Archbishop" Mark Grenon, had written to Trump before that infamous press conference and his band of 30 merry conmen had also been bombarding him with letters and had reached out to his aides:
Revealed: leader of group peddling bleach as coronavirus 'cure' wrote to Trump this week (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/revealed-leader-group-peddling-bleach-cure-lobbied-trump-coronavirus), The Guardian.

I'm not sure if he was the same guy who was mentioned in a doco about the tactics of Anti-Vaxxers. That guy was selling a nebuliser which converted the bleach into a mist so it could be inhaled. It, too, was spruiked as a cure for autism but was repurposed into a Covid cure. 

The "Archbishop" has been charged with offences in Florida and argued unsuccessfully that his con was protected as he was selling bleach through his "Church", Genesis II.

This possible basis for Trump asking such a profoundly stupid question at least provides some explanation for why he did it. But in true Trump form, it adds sleaze, conspiracy theory peddling and shameless pandering to the religious right & the far right.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 30, 2021, 10:40:48 am
It SHOULD say it all.

However, we have seen that 'small details' like that mean nothing to the youtube generation! They always know better!
On FartBook, Twiddler and InstaGrope, it only takes one!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on August 30, 2021, 11:16:46 am
Only a lousy 1300 new cases (close enuff) in NSW.  They're paralyzed. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on August 30, 2021, 11:41:38 am
Only a lousy 1300 new cases (close enuff) in NSW.  They're paralyzed. 

If only they were paralyzed they would get on top of it…
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 30, 2021, 03:28:46 pm
Thats the one i was talking about!

Not surprised there is a couple of similar types who fit the bill.  ::)
Yep, this one might also be the one you were thinking of: Right-Wing Radio’s ‘Mr. Anti-Vax’ Marc Bernier Dies Of Coronavirus (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/marc-bernier-coronavirus-death_n_612c3b12e4b0231e369d5419), HuffPost.

I don’t know whether to respect these guys for being true to their stated beliefs or facepalm over their stupidity. The right wingers in the US have perfected grifting. They say one thing and drive their supporters to follow their calls while happily doing the opposite. The best example was Trump calling on his rally crowd on 6Jan to march on the Capitol building. He promised he’d march with them, but of course he just went home to watch the mayhem unfold on the TV.  Then you have the right wing stoking the QAnon obsession with supposed Democrat child sex trafficking while Trump acolyte Matt Gaetz is actually being investigated for child sex trafficking and another Trump acolyte Jim Jordan argues he didn’t know about sexual abuse perpetrated by the head wrestling coach when he was an assistant coach under him. And the Minnesota GOP is imploding after its big donor was charged with child sex trafficking charges while the party chair failed to heed multiple warnings.

So why didn’t these jokers just say they were against vaccination while getting vaccinated on the sly. It’s not as though they would have had anything to fear if they’d been found out. The Trump base doesn’t care whether they are shown to be hypocrites: all they care about is that they voice their support for their hot-button issues.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 30, 2021, 03:33:14 pm
So why didn’t these jokers just say they were against vaccination while getting vaccinated on the sly. It’s not as though they would have had anything to fear if they’d been found out. The Trump base doesn’t care whether they are shown to be hypocrites: all they care about is that they voice their support for their hot-button issues.
Umm, ............... ahhh ...................... because they were also morons? :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 30, 2021, 06:29:41 pm
Yep, this one might also be the one you were thinking of: Right-Wing Radio’s ‘Mr. Anti-Vax’ Marc Bernier Dies Of Coronavirus (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/marc-bernier-coronavirus-death_n_612c3b12e4b0231e369d5419), HuffPost.

Nah it was the first one....because it was a 'younger' guy and 'Valentine' rang a bell.

As i stated though, i'm not surprised there is more than 1 though. We're up to 3 in a week and i'm sure there are plenty more we've missed, or coming.

Wonder what excuses their followers will have to explain their deaths. CIA? NSA? KGB?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 30, 2021, 07:07:10 pm
They all pale in comparison to the flat earther who launched himself in a home made rocket to prove the earth is flat.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 31, 2021, 12:30:24 pm
https://au.yahoo.com/news/covid-nsw-1164-new-cases-premier-christmas-hint-012021782.html

Gladys is dreaming.......modelling by the Doherty institute has 1500 people dead over a 6 month period if we open up with 70% vaccination rates. Thats around 60 a week, dont see the NSW or Aus public copping those levels along with large infection rates...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 31, 2021, 12:50:51 pm
And now for the new Sth African variant which kicks Delta’s arse:  Doomsday’ Covid variant detected in South Africa even worse than Delta strain (https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/doomsday-covid-variant-detected-in-south-africa-even-worse-than-delta-strain/news-story/cd272bb749122954f3e58322be40be53), Hun.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 31, 2021, 01:05:29 pm
And now for the new Sth African variant which kicks Delta’s arse:  Doomsday’ Covid variant detected in South Africa even worse than Delta strain (https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/doomsday-covid-variant-detected-in-south-africa-even-worse-than-delta-strain/news-story/cd272bb749122954f3e58322be40be53), Hun.
If this is correct there is also a variant coming in Sth America as well, Brazil / Peru that looks quite bad as well.

But it is interesting listening to the epidemiologists. If a variant becomes is too lethal it turns out it will kill / maim too fast to spread widely, the most deadly virus is the one that strikes a balance between lethality and transmission.

I've heard a nice analogy about pest control. To control pests the best solutions are the ones that allow the chemical to be taken back to the colony and spread before killing the infected. If a control measure kills too quickly the infected die in the field before they take it back to the colony. This is why most rodent or ant control chemicals kill slowly, they allow the control measure to be taken back and fed to the colony before impacting the initial wave. The same applies to the virus, if infected become too sick too soon and pass away too quickly, it won't spread as much. I realise this is little comfort to the families of the departed!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 31, 2021, 01:35:00 pm
Interesting that Dan is on the front foot regarding a negation of the Freedom Day idea, it will be interesting to see what Scomo does, especially in hindsight of what has happened in the UK to hospitals and emergency services.

The general public do not get it, they think the rules are all about them, the bulk of the entitled general public are oblivious to the plight of the hospitals and health care sector.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 31, 2021, 02:15:47 pm
I think the anti-lockdown types had a naive and incorrect belief that if they could blow up Covid-0, Governments would have little choice but to allow life to go back to normal. In reality, the only hope of living a life that approximates the old normal is to stay at Covid-0. Once that's impossible, we'll be in permanent lockdown. Just to keep new infections at around 100 a day requires hard restrictions. And when spikes take it above that figure, hard lockdowns are needed. The only other way out is high vaccination rates, but I suspect there's a big overlap between anti-Lockdowns, anti-Maskers & anti-Vaxxers. If so, the anti-Lockdowners will ensure both that we won't stay at Covid-0 & we'll be unable to open up safely.   
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 31, 2021, 02:49:56 pm
The only other way out is high vaccination rates, but I suspect there's a big overlap between anti-Lockdowns, anti-Maskers & anti-Vaxxers. If so, the anti-Lockdowners will ensure both that we won't stay at Covid-0 & we'll be unable to open up safely.
Yes, this seems self-evident, so the net effect of disobedience is that restrictions remain for longer than necessary, the cultural tug-of-war.

They are the naughty kid, standing in the corner, expecting to be released by throwing a tantrum!

I'm very worried about the youth, a large segment is too easily influenced by social media, they are accepting of the certain uncertainty to the point they appear paranoid of authority. It's neither a safe or natural position that they take, because there is such bias in how they weigh the legitimacy of the information. Their friend who claims COVID shrinks your dick or swells your tits, is less doubted than the doctor who claims long COVID is very serious and real!

They almost seem oblivious the risk of new strains, and come across as so entitled that they appear dismissive of the concept that things can get much much worse than it currently is, they are already claiming they have been assaulted to the maximum degree!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 31, 2021, 04:20:08 pm
Let nature take its course with them LP.

Survival of the fittest and all that.

Maybe they can all get a collective Darwin award?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 31, 2021, 04:56:54 pm
I think the anti-lockdown types had a naive and incorrect belief that if they could blow up Covid-0, Governments would have little choice but to allow life to go back to normal. In reality, the only hope of living a life that approximates the old normal is to stay at Covid-0. Once that's impossible, we'll be in permanent lockdown. Just to keep new infections at around 100 a day requires hard restrictions. And when spikes take it above that figure, hard lockdowns are needed. The only other way out is high vaccination rates, but I suspect there's a big overlap between anti-Lockdowns, anti-Maskers & anti-Vaxxers. If so, the anti-Lockdowners will ensure both that we won't stay at Covid-0 & we'll be unable to open up safely.   

Sad but true. As an old teacher of mine said many, many years ago - 'Never underestimate human denial.'

Seems present commentary puts relaxation of some restrictions at a vaccination rate of at least 70%... hoping for 80%.

As K mentioned, the 'denialists' will simply learn the hard way, putting themselves as front running for the upcoming Darwin Awards. Not to mention how they'll potentially further burdening our health services.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 31, 2021, 10:51:20 pm
https://au.yahoo.com/news/twice-as-fast-alarm-new-coronavirus-strain-detected-040606799.html
https://au.news.yahoo.com/grim-new-covid-record-worlds-most-vaccinated-country-113800485.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 01, 2021, 10:15:41 am
I think the anti-lockdown types had a naive and incorrect belief that if they could blow up Covid-0, Governments would have little choice but to allow life to go back to normal. In reality, the only hope of living a life that approximates the old normal is to stay at Covid-0. Once that's impossible, we'll be in permanent lockdown. Just to keep new infections at around 100 a day requires hard restrictions. And when spikes take it above that figure, hard lockdowns are needed. The only other way out is high vaccination rates, but I suspect there's a big overlap between anti-Lockdowns, anti-Maskers & anti-Vaxxers. If so, the anti-Lockdowners will ensure both that we won't stay at Covid-0 & we'll be unable to open up safely.   

I had a good laugh at your misguided certitude.

I'd love to see some data to support your assertion that hard lock downs are necessary to keep cases down....other NPIs have ben shown to be just as effective.

and quite frankly, there  is ample data out of the UK to suggest hospitalisation rates are being driven by the vaxxed. Go figure.

Is the NSW hospital system really overwhelmed by 140 cases in ICU?

https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2020/surge-capacity-australian-intensive-care-units-associated-covid-19-admissions

Meanwhile, data continues to emerge suggesting that the vaccines are next to useless against variants. Which is all that remains these days....

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.22.457114v1.full.pdf

So, good luck with your 6 monthly jabs.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 01, 2021, 10:36:56 am
Often counting resources is quite a simplistic argument ignoring the real issues as @Thryleon‍ pointed out numerous times.

Even in the very report linked above;
Quote
Based on current workforce data from the 175 respondent ICUs, maximal surge would require an additional 4092 senior medical staff (345% above baseline staffing), and an additional 42 720 registered nursing staff would be required (365% above baseline staffing)
Who'd have thought that an ICU bed could not run itself! :o

The NSW public can just ask for a polite bend over and pull a 3x increase in skilled ICU staff out of the Premier's ar5e! ;D

Perhaps we can bring the extra staff from India or Indonesia, quick place an Ad on 457-Jobs-R-Us! ::)

(https://media1.giphy.com/media/VvVhcK99JgauA/giphy.gif?cid=790b7611f738a81a66a03e6e7a31d038e683e13b7175b6b6&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 01, 2021, 12:41:11 pm
Flyboy, you might get lucky with the variants: maybe Ivermectin might finally work on one of them. Ivermectin fans will be like Powerball “investors” waiting with bated breath to see if their numbers come up this time.

By the way, here’s a good article about those pushing Ivermectin: People Are Eating Horse Paste To Fight COVID. These Doctors Are One Reason Why, HuffPost. (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/horse-paste-ivermectin-flccc_n_612d1980e4b02be25b5edd15)

The article deals with the Front Line Covid Critical Care Alliance, a group of Doctors who desperately sought to repurpose existing medications to give them some weapons to battle Covid when nothing else was available. They had a big win with a combination of the steroid methylprednisolone and other drugs and supplements. They pressed on despite resistance in the medical community until studies confirmed the effectiveness of steroids in treating serious cases. But then they backed the wrong horse based on dodgy studies. While steroids operate as anti-inflammatories and there’s a plausible way they might help treat Covid, it’s much harder to see how Ivermectin, an anti-parasitic rather than anti-viral medication, would help.

As the article notes, initially the FLCCCA was trying to find a stopgap pending the arrival of effective vaccines but it seems the support from right wingers and anti-vaxxers has worked to stop the FLCCCA recommending vaccines.

The article quotes Dr Eric Osgood, a former member of the FLCCCA who quit because of the group’s failure to endorse vaccines:
Quote
“[Ivermectin] shouldn’t have been promoted as a vaccine alternative or a miracle cure,” he said. “People are drinking sheep drench! If that’s not a call to use your clout and influence to say, ‘Enough is enough! Get your shots!’ then I just don’t know.”

But even the remaining members of the FLCCCA are worried that the Delta variant is kicking Ivermectin’s arse:
Quote
And as the delta variant continues to infect the nation, even Kory admits that ivermectin (the human kind) is no match for it, tweeting on Aug. 9, “I have experienced and am getting reports from FLCCC Alliance members that Delta variant patients crashing into ICU’s ... are not showing responses to MATH+. We are demoralized and frightened. Early treatment is CRITICAL. Every household should take I-MASK+ upon first symptoms.”
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 01, 2021, 02:05:27 pm
Flyboy, you might get lucky with the variants: maybe Ivermectin might finally work on one of them. Ivermectin fans will be like Powerball “investors” waiting with bated breath to see if their numbers come up this time.

By the way, here’s a good article about those pushing Ivermectin: People Are Eating Horse Paste To Fight COVID. These Doctors Are One Reason Why, HuffPost. (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/horse-paste-ivermectin-flccc_n_612d1980e4b02be25b5edd15)

The article deals with the Front Line Covid Critical Care Alliance, a group of Doctors who desperately sought to repurpose existing medications to give them some weapons to battle Covid when nothing else was available. They had a big win with a combination of the steroid methylprednisolone and other drugs and supplements. They pressed on despite resistance in the medical community until studies confirmed the effectiveness of steroids in treating serious cases. But then they backed the wrong horse based on dodgy studies. While steroids operate as anti-inflammatories and there’s a plausible way they might help treat Covid, it’s much harder to see how Ivermectin, an anti-parasitic rather than anti-viral medication, would help.

As the article notes, initially the FLCCCA was trying to find a stopgap pending the arrival of effective vaccines but it seems the support from right wingers and anti-vaxxers has worked to stop the FLCCCA recommending vaccines.

The article quotes Dr Eric Osgood, a former member of the FLCCCA who quit because of the group’s failure to endorse vaccines:
But even the remaining members of the FLCCCA are worried that the Delta variant is kicking Ivermectin’s arse:

You've never heard of Penicillin Mav? Used by humans and animals alike for many a decade.

Ivermectin - the sheep drench line is a great straw man line (well poor really).

Ivermectin has been on the WHO's most essential drug list since circa 1980.

You reckon it doesn't work - you base that on the spin you read on cereal packets or worse....

I look at the data - and the evidence is overwhelming with next to zero risk of any adverse side effects.

c19ivermectin.com

or Tess Lawrie's meta study undertake to the highest Cochrane standard.

https://bird-group.org/health-professionals-resources/

Do you really think these types (Lawrie, Kory, Meduri, Cadegiani, Malone etc.) are all just crazy nutters?

https://ivmmeta.com/

Why is your view better than theirs?

Do you back slappers here ever actually read any of this stuff or just run a 'fact check' search and grab a hold of that biased garbage?

Osgood? Looks like he got bought....

And there are many other viable treatments too for that matter.

Here's hoping you don't have Soyboy Sutton bed sheets.

Speaking of which, Slug Gate #2 resumes at 2.30pm.

https://t.co/YHHNQFi8xX?amp=1

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 01, 2021, 02:39:34 pm
You've never heard of Penicillin Mav? Used by humans and animals alike for many a decade.
Why don't we just use Penicillin then, Flyboy? Could it be because it's an anti-bacterial rather than an anti-viral? We all know Penicillin doesn't work against the flu let alone Covid. Still, an antibacterial is closer to the mark than an anti-parasitic medication.

Osgood? Looks like he got bought....
^-^ Classic ...

I have no problem with you using Ivermectin. Have at it. You never know, maybe using horse dewormer will end up with you drawing admiring glances in the urinals at half-time in Carlton games.  Maybe you'll start showing the gentler personality of horses, although you'd probably need to stop taking that Tasmanian Devil medication first. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 01, 2021, 04:28:56 pm
Why don't we just use Penicillin then, Flyboy? Could it be because it's an anti-bacterial rather than an anti-viral? We all know Penicillin doesn't work against the flu let alone Covid. Still, an antibacterial is closer to the mark than an anti-parasitic medication.
 ^-^ Classic ...

I have no problem with you using Ivermectin. Have at it. You never know, maybe using horse dewormer will end up with you drawing admiring glances in the urinals at half-time in Carlton games.  Maybe you'll start showing the gentler personality of horses, although you'd probably need to stop taking that Tasmanian Devil medication first. 

I know you're not as dumb as your recent batch of comments.

The reference to Penicillin was by way of analogy. Duh.

Your smug comments re Ivermectin simply tells me you've been too lazy to read any of the literature - happy to run with the facile government/MSM narrative....

Re the current vaccines, it's hardly earth shattering logic to grasp that as the bugs change, a vaccine designed to subdue an original strain (which has faded away), might not work for the new variants - Delta etc. (think the flu).

Why are our Governments running with a 70%++ vaccine popn. threshold, when they now know (very well indeed) the efficacy and duration are extremely limited?

It's spin and nothing but fear porn.

Illogical. Ditto the whole vax passport caper given no reduction in transmission, no reduction in catching it.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 01, 2021, 04:49:01 pm
Seems you missed the admission by one of the great advocates of Invermectin, Dr Kory, that the Delta variant isn't responding to Invermectin. He concedes he's demoralised & frightened. But that's only because he sees what's happening to patients. Unburdened by this sort of observation, your confidence isn't dented at all. 

The thing about vaccines is that they can be tweaked to respond to new variants or new vaccines can be formulated. But what can we do with Ivermectin? Is there an Ivermectin 2 or Ivermectin 3 waiting in the wings? Maybe we can mix it with bleach to clean the body of Covid ...

I'm looking forward to vaccine passports. I'll be able to go to the footy, pubs and restaurants again. No doubt there'll also be a vaccine passport for those who are protected by Ivermectin. It should give users access to free bales of hay, free gelding. and trips to the Middle East on live-cattle ships. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 01, 2021, 05:02:16 pm
Firstly, the risks of Ivermectin include oedema, tachycardia, myocarditis, pericarditis, seizures, coma and liver damage.

The recommended safe adult dose of Ivermectin for typical disease treatment scenarios is 12mg dose given at a +90 day interval, at that dose there are risks of significant side-effects including the oedema, tachycardia, myocarditis, pericarditis, seizures, coma and liver damage listed above.

Even at the normal dose, when you scale up to issue this medicine to millions of patients the rate of serious side effects is many many times the risk of side-effects from the Sars-CoV-2 vaccines.

FWIW, the normal Ivermectin dose is repeated at an interval of 3 to 12 months.

The India HCW Ivermectin study used the equivalent of 2 x 24mg doses of Ivermectin given just 3 days apart, a 400% higher dose in 1/10th the time, the increased risks of serious side-effects is enormous! Possibly killing as many people as untreated Sars-CoV-2 per million.

In the USA they are just starting to see people roll up to hospitals with serious disease resulting from the self-administration of Ivermectin, it's killing people or leaving them with long term disease as bad as or worse than if they had got COVID-19! On top of that, it offers them zero protection against Sars-CoV-2, so they are actually increasing the risks not reducing them.

Ignoring all those facts, the truth of the Ivermectin lie is in Sth America, where millions and millions of doses were issued at the hand of corrupt politicians and killed so many people from direct side effects, even ignoring that the Ivermectin did nothing to arrest the spread of Sars-CoV-2 and nothing to mitigate COVID-19 disease.

Now we have the Peru / Brazil Sars-CoV-2 variant emerging, probably aided by the false Ivermectin treatment regime.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 01, 2021, 05:13:01 pm
The recommended safe dose of Ivermectin for typical disease treatment scenarios is 12mg dose given at a +90 day interval, at that dose there are risks of significant side-effects including oedema leading to tachycardia, myocarditis, pericarditis, coma and or liver damage.

Even at the normal dose the rate of serious side effects is many many times the risk of side-effects from the vaccines. Fwiw, the normal dose is repeated at an interval of 3 to 12 months.

The India HCW Ivermectin study used the equivalent of 2 x 24mg doses of Ivermectin given just 3 days apart, the increased risks of serious side-effects is enormous! Probably killing as many people as untreated Sars-CoV-2 per million.

[

BS LP.

https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/FLCCC-Alliance-I-MASKplus-Protocol-ENGLISH.pdf

Ivermectin has a remarkable safety profile.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.30.20236570v1.full

You really do come across as a shill. You're just making stuff up again. Sadly.

Anyway, some common sense from one of the world's best biostatisticians....

https://rumble.com/vj8b4x-stanfords-dr.-john-ioannidis-destroys-the-covid-lockdown-narrative.html

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 01, 2021, 05:13:55 pm
Seems you missed the admission by one of the great advocates of Invermectin, Dr Kory, that the Delta variant isn't responding to Invermectin. He concedes he's demoralised & frightened. But that's only because he sees what's happening to patients. Unburdened by this sort of observation, your confidence isn't dented at all. 

The thing about vaccines is that they can be tweaked to respond to new variants or new vaccines can be formulated. But what can we do with Ivermectin? Is there an Ivermectin 2 or Ivermectin 3 waiting in the wings? Maybe we can mix it with bleach to clean the body of Covid ...

I'm looking forward to vaccine passports. I'll be able to go to the footy, pubs and restaurants again. No doubt there'll also be a vaccine passport for those who are protected by Ivermectin. It should give users access to free bales of hay, free gelding. and trips to the Middle East on live-cattle ships. 

Feel free to post where Kory has said this....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 01, 2021, 05:22:42 pm
Ivermectin has a remarkable safety profile.
I suppose if you want to tweak the stats, and you kill all those people with Ivermectin, you can't have COVID-19 kill them as well, so win win for Merck shareholders! ;D

You obviously do not read what you link, or you have no comprehension of what you link because those studies support what I have posted.

The invitro anti-viral studies you linked were even 30% higher doses again than the India HCW trial and demonstrated no efficacy in patients.

The invitro trials did manage to kill some virus, as you would expect at that dose, I suppose the learning is that you can kill just about anything with anything given you administer enough of something. Probably take out a few livers and lungs as well! :o
My God, I've just realised what that means ................... Bring on the Beers! ;)

PS; Alcoholism is up during lockdown, so a double benefit of lockdown is increasing the beers and killing virus while restricting it's spread! Another win win! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 01, 2021, 05:26:14 pm
Just in case you missed it the first time, Flyboy:
Quote
And as the delta variant continues to infect the nation, even Kory admits that ivermectin (the human kind) is no match for it, tweeting on Aug. 9, “I have experienced and am getting reports from FLCCC Alliance members that Delta variant patients crashing into ICU’s ... are not showing responses to MATH+. We are demoralized and frightened. Early treatment is CRITICAL. Every household should take I-MASK+ upon first symptoms.”
People Are Eating Horse Paste To Fight COVID. These Doctors Are One Reason Why, HuffPost. (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/horse-paste-ivermectin-flccc_n_612d1980e4b02be25b5edd15)

Yeah, I know, he's been bought ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 01, 2021, 05:33:58 pm
The safety profile of a drug is a function of the number of patients treated, for something used so sparingly in humans Ivermectin at it's normal dose is quite safe, about as deadly as general anaesthesia, but even general anaesthesia is far deadly than the vaccines per million patients.

The arguments for Ivermectin have no basis in fact or math, it's just become a pandemic meme.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 02, 2021, 08:00:35 am
It's like winning Tattslotto when stories like this surface at an appropriate moment?
Quote
A Sydney COVID-19 patient has been treated in hospital for an overdose of the drug ivermectin and other underground “cures” ordered online.

The person is now recovering at home after presenting to Westmead Hospital’s emergency department with vomiting and diarrhoea caused by the drug, according to the Western Sydney Local Health district.

“Thankfully they didn’t develop severe toxicity, but it didn’t help their COVID either,” Westmead Hospital toxicologist Associate Professor Naren Gunja said.
We shouldn't really be surprised though, it's probably inevitable!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on September 02, 2021, 09:04:48 am
Meanwhile the average punter is trapped at home,  no job,  bills racking up,  while trapped in an endless loop of lock down with the end  some nebulous date in the future.  Couldn't even give us the decency of giving us a date.  Over it. Give us something, anything
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 02, 2021, 09:14:31 am
Meanwhile the average punter is trapped at home,  no job,  bills racking up,  while trapped in an endless loop of lock down with the end  some nebulous date in the future.  Couldn't even give us the decency of giving us a date.  Over it. Give us something, anything
I understand the frustration.

But when people ask that question it suggests they think the authorities know the answer, which contradicts all the accusations like "The government / health authorities don't know what they are doing!"

If they don't know what they are doing, it means they do not know the answer, so in effect that complaint is a request to be deceived!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 02, 2021, 09:25:15 am
Then you get morons like Joe Rogan;
Quote
The podcaster described coming home Saturday and feeling "very weary" and having a headache. After testing positive the next morning, he said he "immediately threw the kitchen sink at it, all kinds of meds -- monoclonal antibodies, ivermectin, Z-pac, prednisone, everything." Now, he says, "I feel great. I really only had one bad day. Sunday sucked."
FMD, what a dickhead and a crap message to send the public, takes prednisone along with a phalanx of drugs then tells the world you feel great!

Who'd have thunk it, roids make you feel terrific, so does weed but it won't cure COVID!

Further I'm calling bullcrap on Joe's monoclonal antibody message, unless he thinks something genuine that costs US$3650 a dose in the USA is a viable alternative to $35 vaccine, if he claims his version of the monoclonal antibody was cheap, then it's fake! For reference, here in Australia under the PBS they are still AUD$650 per dose, 10x the local cost of a vaccine dose! :o

These morons are complaining about the high cost of lockdowns sending people broke, are they that thick they can't see the contradiction in their message, do they think their solution is free? ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 02, 2021, 10:10:18 am
Record case number today - 175 cases. Week 5 into a short, sharp one week circuit breaker lockdown.  And this is the plan from our leader before anything major changes. 

We need to get the population to 70-80% vaccinated (this part is possible) but then the next bit is where the issue is. We need to have very very small case numbers (and im not talking hundreds is his words) before our freedoms are back makes sense at anyone? Unless im missing something according to this plan we stay in lockdown till we average say 10-20 cases a week or maybe less, then he have some lockdown measures relaxed as we are doing well and have things at a manageable level but heres the major hurdle that myself a man of average intelligence sees............ HTF do those manageable 10-20 cases stay at those levels and not escalate when more people are out and about? This strain is highly contagious so it will again rise back to 40-50 then into the 100s again which is when he will then say sadly 'we have no option but to lock down hard again'!

His logic for these crazy lockdowns against this strain make no sense as unless you completed eliminate it and lock the state down to the rest of the country and world this strain is not going away.

Based on this plan vaccinated or not these harsh stay at home lockdowns folks are here in this state indefinitely as our leaders have no credible honest workable plan out as being stubborn in trying to eliminate this strain is nonsense and the rest of the world know it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 02, 2021, 10:12:51 am
I understand the frustration.

But when people ask that question it suggests they think the authorities know the answer, which contradicts all the accusations like "The government / health authorities don't know what they are doing!"

If they don't know what they are doing, it means they do not know the answer, so in effect that complaint is a request to be deceived!

So I'm curious LP as you seem to be very knowledgeable on this topic based on the about of posts. Are you happy with how this is being handled by those we have to adhere to?

If you were leading this state what's the plan?   
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on September 02, 2021, 10:16:48 am
We'll never get those vaccination levels,  there's insufficient supplies and too many hold outs.   It's a number chucked out to appease the masses,  they're stalling while dog paddling around looking for a solution,  which I fear doesn't exist.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 02, 2021, 10:21:35 am
Record case number today - 175 cases. Week 5 into a short, sharp one week circuit breaker lockdown.  And this is the plan from our leader before anything major changes. 

We need to get the population to 70-80% vaccinated (this part is possible) but then the next bit is where the issue is. We need to have very very small case numbers (and im not talking hundreds is his words) before our freedoms are back makes sense at anyone? Unless im missing something according to this plan we stay in lockdown till we average say 10-20 cases a week or maybe less, then he have some lockdown measures relaxed as we are doing well and have things at a manageable level but heres the major hurdle that myself a man of average intelligence sees............ HTF do those manageable 10-20 cases stay at those levels and not escalate when more people are out and about? This strain is highly contagious so it will again rise back to 40-50 then into the 100s again which is when he will then say sadly 'we have no option but to lock down hard again'!

His logic for these crazy lockdowns against this strain make no sense as unless you completed eliminate it and lock the state down to the rest of the country and world this strain is not going away.

Based on this plan vaccinated or not these harsh stay at home lockdowns folks are here in this state indefinitely as our leaders have no credible honest workable plan out as being stubborn in trying to eliminate this strain is nonsense and the rest of the world know it.
High Vaccination rates are no panacea to success, Israel and England are already in booster shot mode and Scomo is going to have to explain to the public that 60 deaths a week will be normal if you go by the Doherty
modelling.. The South African variant is worse than Delta from what I have read and will require the vaccines being tweaked.
Gladys might open up NSW but there is no way, Dan, WA, Qld will do same IMHO..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 02, 2021, 10:21:56 am
Record case number today - 175 cases. Week 5 into a short, sharp one week circuit breaker lockdown.  And this is the plan from our leader before anything major changes. 
Isn't the problem that it is being spread by people who either refuse to adhere to restrictions and social distancing, or for whatever reason cannot adhere to those restrictions?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 02, 2021, 10:27:28 am
Simple .... no national cohesion.  The constitution must change to prevent some of these states maniacal rule to continue.  Start with that "woman" in Queensland.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 02, 2021, 10:29:43 am
Joe Rogan is just the latest to join a long conga line of loud and proud anti-vax & pro-ivermectin conservatives who have caught Covid despite the magic of ivermectin. Among those who've died are Phil Valentine, Marc "Mr.Anti-Vax" Bernier, Dick Farrel (all conservative radio hosts), Captain Joe Manning (Georgia police officer), & 30 year old Caleb Wallace (anti-vax co-ordinator).  Most if not all of them used Ivermectin before contracting Covid as a type of non-vaccine vaccine, thus helping to disprove its effectiveness in that regard. 

Bear in mind that these deaths only garnered media attention because of their belligerent stances and prominence. Presumably, much lower-profile pro-Ivermectin anti-vaxxers are filling up cemeteries in southern US States. I would have thought that the public would be well served if statistics concerning hospitalisation & death caused by Covid included vaccination status and the use of alternative medications like Ivermectin.  

I have to give Flyboy credit, though. Once I pointed out that Dr Kory has despaired about Ivermectin's lack of impact against the Delta variant, he seems to have backed off. The funny thing is that Ivermectin advocates have revelled in the ability of the Delta variant to cause breakthrough cases, but they haven't twigged that any effect Ivermectin may have had against the original Covid strain may be completely negated by more virulent strains.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 02, 2021, 10:31:56 am
We need to get the population to 70-80% vaccinated (this part is possible) but then the next bit is where the issue is.
The scientists are actually saying it looks like Delta requires better than 90% vaccinated, 70% is the political sell.
 
We need to have very very small case numbers (and im not talking hundreds is his words) before our freedoms are back makes sense at anyone? Unless im missing something according to this plan we stay in lockdown till we average say 10-20 cases a week or maybe less, then he have some lockdown measures relaxed as we are doing well and have things at a manageable level but heres the major hurdle that myself a man of average intelligence sees............
I think people are really victims of mixed messaging, that results from some limited direct quotes and a wider media and social media interpretation.

There is a difference between the goal and reality, I do not know of any credible health official that thinks extinction is currently achievable, and in the opinion of health officials extinction hasn't been since more than a year ago when politicians missed he first boat. But that doesn't mean they stop trying given the massive overarching high cost of failing!
 
HTF do those manageable 10-20 cases stay at those levels and not escalate when more people are out and about? This strain is highly contagious so it will again rise back to 40-50 then into the 100s again which is when he will then say sadly 'we have no option but to lock down hard again'!
We probably won't, but if it was the 4th Qtr and our team gave up you'd be livid, you might even sack the coach. Yet here you are preaching a form of surrender!

Based on this plan vaccinated or not these harsh stay at home lockdowns folks are here in this state indefinitely as our leaders have no credible honest workable plan out as being stubborn in trying to eliminate this strain is nonsense and the rest of the world know it.
That is really an accusation you have made based on opinion, is it is not part of any official plan you, I or anybody has heard, and it is obvious that extreme opinion cannot be reality.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 02, 2021, 10:34:16 am
Just watch the "there's no point trying to suppress Covid" people spin on a dime and become "the government should have prevented deaths by suppressing Covid" people when the deaths start accelerating.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 02, 2021, 10:37:45 am
High Vaccination rates are no panacea to success, Israel and England are already in booster shot mode and Scomo is going to have to explain to the public that 60 deaths a week will be normal if you go by the Doherty
modelling.. The South African variant is worse than Delta from what I have read and will require the vaccines being tweaked.
Gladys might open up NSW but there is no way, Dan, WA, Qld will do same IMHO..
@ElwoodBlues1 Agreed.

The booster shots are more about controlling exploding health cost by minimising acute symptoms requiring hospitalisation, a thousand vaccine shots are so much cheaper than even one individual person spending an afternoon in a hospital bed.

The deaths being recorded now in Israel and the UK are now largely in the unvaccinated population, I saw some figures last week that suggests current UK COVID-19 deaths are now 98% unvaccinated and 2% breakthrough vaccinated. But this is just a reality of math when the bulk of the population become vaccinated and restrictions are removed for everybody.

After lockdown, the effect of Sars-CoV-2 is minimised in the vaccinated, and at the same time the effect of Sars-CoV-2 is amplified in the unvaccinated because the virus has become ubiquitous in free people everywhere.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 02, 2021, 10:40:12 am
Isn't the problem that it is being spread by people who either refuse to adhere to restrictions and social distancing, or for whatever reason cannot adhere to those restrictions?

So what hope do we have LP? 

You are never ever ever going to get full and total adhering of every rule by every single person in the community. And if it only take a hand full of people out of 6mil to cause it to fail it means the plan is not feasible and it has 0% of success.

Hence why I said we better stop listening to the carrot danglers in power and admit we are living like this for a very very very long time as we have no credible plan to work to.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 02, 2021, 10:45:57 am
So I'm curious LP as you seem to be very knowledgeable on this topic based on the about of posts. Are you happy with how this is being handled by those we have to adhere to?

If you were leading this state what's the plan?
I'm not particularly knowledgably of the epidemiology I just accept what the scientific consensus coming from real scientists, and largely ignore the radical spin applied to points cherry-picked from reports and data by critics like Sky News or Facebook Experts.

The first really hard step that hasn't even happened yet is making vaccination compulsory for anybody eligible to get it, but it is political and mental health poison so it will only ever happen as a last ditch solution.

God help us if we get a variant that looks deadly to children, anarchy will pursue because the governments will without hesitation make vaccination compulsory and the self-entitled denialists will become radical extremists in their refusal.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 02, 2021, 10:49:29 am
So what hope do we have LP? 

You are never ever ever going to get full and total adhering of every rule by every single person in the community. And if it only take a hand full of people out of 6mil to cause it to fail it means the plan is not feasible and it has 0% of success.

Hence why I said we better stop listening to the carrot danglers in power and admit we are living like this for a very very very long time as we have no credible plan to work to.
It's a position of ignorance, because like the politician, and the scientist, nobody including you or me knows what is next step in the evolution of Sars-CoV-2.

That "handful" you refer to is a huge assumption, you assume it's not one of yours, you assume it's old people, you assume there are no other significant long term health costs, which ultimately cost every one physically or economically!

I've heard estimates that the long term economic cost, that the big dollars of ongoing COVID-19, could be as high as 6x the total cost of the epidemic in the short term!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 02, 2021, 10:58:11 am
Given there'll be pressure on hospitals to cope with Covid-related admissions, I would fully support ethical rules regarding access being amended so the unvaccinated are at the end of the queue.  By unvaccinated, I mean those who were eligible for vaccination (excluding those who had a legitimate medical reason for their failure to vaccinate). Doctors and nurses have gnashed their teeth over anti-vaxxers in the US receiving double-lung transplants when Covid catches up with them. If you have to choose who gets beds and who is sent home, their vaccination status should be a prime criterion.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 02, 2021, 11:00:56 am
Given there'll be pressure on hospitals to cope with Covid-related admissions, I would fully support ethical rules regarding access being amended so the unvaccinated are at the end of the queue.  By unvaccinated, I mean those who were eligible for vaccination (excluding those who had a legitimate medical reason for their failure to vaccinate). Doctors and nurses have gnashed their teeth over anti-vaxxers in the US receiving double-lung transplants when Covid catches up with them. If you have to choose who gets beds and who is sent home, their vaccination status should be a prime criterion.
I understand this position but I'm not sure I'd agree, it sends a society down a specific path that is not based on social equity, to me the ultimate path of this direction becomes health care for the wealthy.

Why do I think that?

Because access to something like acute health care will depend on a status, and the cost of achieving that status will rise as a defacto form of regulation, just purely based on market forces. There will always be some better level of care available to the wealthy, and that will mean they end up at the front of the queue as the best candidate for such procedures.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 02, 2021, 11:06:54 am
AFAIK, variations on this already occur. Whether someone is willing to give us smoking affects eligibility for transplants and the like (I stand to be corrected on this).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 02, 2021, 11:16:56 am
So what hope do we have LP? 

You are never ever ever going to get full and total adhering of every rule by every single person in the community. And if it only take a hand full of people out of 6mil to cause it to fail it means the plan is not feasible and it has 0% of success.

Hence why I said we better stop listening to the carrot danglers in power and admit we are living like this for a very very very long time as we have no credible plan to work to.

I've been saying since our very first lockdown, the biggest problem our government has is that it trusts the people to do the right thing.

Now they've done their best to try and achieve this, but you will never get it. Thats why they 'dangle the carrot' because its a way of keeping more people in line in the hope of eliminating this.

If the government says, 2 months of lockdown, people lose their $h!t and don't follow the rules from day 1.
If the government says 2 weeks, and then.....2 weeks and then....2 weeks...etc. People are more able to cope "its only just 2 weeks"

However, we are getting to the 'boy who cried wolf' side of things and its no longer working.

A new strategy needs to be put in place....somehow....to try and curb this before its too late.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 02, 2021, 11:18:42 am
AFAIK, variations on this already occur. Whether someone is willing to give us smoking affects eligibility for transplants and the like (I stand to be corrected on this).
Yes this is true.

But I'd argue that is not a variation on the same concept, smoking is relatively free and ubiquitous being equally available to both poor and wealthy.

The fear I have is that the ultimate selection of candidates for health care would be favoured or influenced by some highly expensive treatment that was beyond the reach of the average person.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 02, 2021, 11:21:44 am
Given there'll be pressure on hospitals to cope with Covid-related admissions, I would fully support ethical rules regarding access being amended so the unvaccinated are at the end of the queue.  By unvaccinated, I mean those who were eligible for vaccination (excluding those who had a legitimate medical reason for their failure to vaccinate). Doctors and nurses have gnashed their teeth over anti-vaxxers in the US receiving double-lung transplants when Covid catches up with them. If you have to choose who gets beds and who is sent home, their vaccination status should be a prime criterion.

Right so if thats your thinking im guessing you would also be fine with if you are over the ideal weight range and now need heart bi-pass surgery you will happily go to back and let all those young, fit people patients ahead of you? 

What if you smoked 20 years ago and now need lung cancer treatment your fine to go to the back behind all those who never smoked.

If you drink and require treatment to your liver or a related organ you go behind all those who never touched the bottle.

What about melanoma - if you sunbaked or went in a solarium you go to the back over a young person with fair skin that has never seen the sun?  

And if you're a diabetic and overweight....  sorry mate back of the line as there is young fit people who care for their body well ahead of your sorry self. 

I could go on and on.

Majority of us will fit into one of these categories and easy to make these rules about a topic that suits you but are you also happy to apply similar thinking across all health matters even when you will be at the back of the queue? 

Be honest now..... 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 02, 2021, 11:23:05 am
There is some irony hidden in protests of the anti-vaxxers and COVID deniers, that perhaps the greatest social leveller is globally available cheap and effective vaccination.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 02, 2021, 11:32:25 am
I've been saying since our very first lockdown, the biggest problem our government has is that it trusts the people to do the right thing.

Spot on.

It's that 5-10%, or so, who willfully and consciously ignore the measures to limit the spread, who fck it up for the rest of us.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 02, 2021, 11:32:30 am
I could go on and on.
I have no doubt at all about that.

I don't agree with this "opening the floodgates" argument that both LP and you are raising. If the change be specific to Covid cases, then we deal with any attempt to make similar changes in respect of other situations on a case-by-case basis. Making this change wouldn't increase the strength of those attempts.

Triage protocols exist already and various factors are already used by hospitals to ration access. I don't know what factors are used and I suspect that hospitals don't widely disseminate them as pile-ons would ensue.  Maybe EB might know.

In any event, as long as such changes were publicised beforehand, then those who make a choice to remain unvaccinated would make that choice in the full knowledge of its implications. If you know that there won't be a month-long intensive air-sea rescue attempt involving the Navy, Airforce & Border Force if you try to paddle by yourself to NZ, maybe you'd think twice about doing it.     
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 02, 2021, 12:10:42 pm
Mav....what you are saying makes sense if its done correctly.

However, like lockdowns, people don't do things correctly.

Its open for exploitation. Simplest form being the wealthy 'buying' treatment that they would not otherwise get. A little donation here, a favour there, a bump in grades on top....You see my point.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 02, 2021, 12:29:04 pm
That's unavoidable anyway, Kruddler. For instance, as LP notes, monoclonal antibodies are really expensive but rich people can pay for them. It's already an unequal system. The unvaccinated rich would merely jockey for care at private hospitals. That wouldn't be cured if we gave them equal or even preferential access to public hospitals. At least the vaccinated would have to compete against far fewer unvaccinated when it came to obtaining life-saving care.

And the fake immunisation passport would be far less of a problem when it comes to hospital admissions than going to a restaurant. The admissions people could directly access vaccine status in a way that a maitre d' could not.

There was a story today about an unvaccinated woman who was caught flying into Hawaii using a fake immunisation certificate. It wasn't really difficult to spot the breach: her vaccination certificate said she'd been immunised with the "Maderna" vaccine  :))
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 02, 2021, 01:34:24 pm
If we get to 90% would we need vaccine passports?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 02, 2021, 02:06:43 pm
I have no doubt at all about that.

I don't agree with this "opening the floodgates" argument that both LP and you are raising. If the change be specific to Covid cases, then we deal with any attempt to make similar changes in respect of other situations on a case-by-case basis. Making this change wouldn't increase the strength of those attempts.

Triage protocols exist already and various factors are already used by hospitals to ration access. I don't know what factors are used and I suspect that hospitals don't widely disseminate them as pile-ons would ensue.  Maybe EB might know.

In any event, as long as such changes were publicised beforehand, then those who make a choice to remain unvaccinated would make that choice in the full knowledge of its implications. If you know that there won't be a month-long intensive air-sea rescue attempt involving the Navy, Airforce & Border Force if you try to paddle by yourself to NZ, maybe you'd think twice about doing it.     


Based on the fact you didn’t answer any of my post and highlighted just the last throwaway line only, I will take that it’s a clear NO to you accepting being pushed back in the queue - you only want that system applied to Covid patents that have not been vaccinated.

Thought so.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 02, 2021, 02:11:54 pm
You need to work on your English comprehension skills. I stated explicitly that this should only apply to Covid cases. Why read between the lines if you can just read the words instead?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 02, 2021, 02:28:57 pm
You need to work on your English comprehension skills. I stated explicitly that this should only apply to Covid cases. Why read between the lines if you can just read the words instead?

Play the ball mate not the man- I know it may be hard when you someone asks you a question you don’t want to answer.

So the bottom line once you remove all the spin is the rule ‘only applies Covid cases’ 🙄

So typical.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 02, 2021, 02:35:34 pm
Don't try the "I had to parse your posts extremely carefully to prove that you won't apply that rule other than to Covid because you were trying to hide that fact" game when I stated it explicitly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on September 02, 2021, 03:11:04 pm
Quote
A Sydney COVID-19 patient is recovering from a self-inflicted bout of diarrhoea and vomiting brought on by an unproven drug, health officials say, the latest round in a battle against self-medicating Australians.

Westmead Hospital toxicologist Associate Professor Naren Gunja said the patient arrived at the emergency department recently having overdosed on Ivermectin and other "supposed COVID 'cures'" ordered online.
...

The drug, used widely on farm animals and with no proven evidence it works against COVID-19, is not approved to treat the disease in Australia or any other wealthy western nation.

The Therapeutic Goods Administration, which has approved the drug only for the purpose of roundworm, scabies and inflammatory rosacea, last week warned of a significant increase in imports.

A spokesperson told The Guardian that Australian Border Force officers looking for potentially unlawful imports had noticed a more than tenfold increase.

"The TGA strongly discourages self-medication and self-dosing with Ivermectin for COVID-19 as it may be dangerous to your health," the organisation said in a release issued on August 23.

"There is insufficient evidence to validate the use of Ivermectin in patients with COVID-19."

Even Ivermectin manufacturer Merck doesn't recommend the drug against COVID-19, warning early this year there was "no scientific basis for a potential therapeutic effect" and noting a "concerning lack of safety data in the majority of studies."

America's Food and Drug Administration famously came out even harder against increasing reports of Ivermectin usage.
"You are not a horse. You are not a cow. Seriously, y'all. Stop it," the agency said.

https://www.9news.com.au/national/coronavirus-australia-using-unproven-covid-cure-ivermectin-lands-sydney-patient-in-hospital/4f6fade5-dca0-455f-b342-c66c8f19dcc6
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 02, 2021, 07:10:14 pm
https://au.news.yahoo.com/two-more-deaths-linked-to-astra-zeneca-vaccine-080602439.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on September 02, 2021, 08:11:20 pm
https://theconversation.com/whats-the-mu-variant-and-will-we-keep-seeing-more-concerning-variants-167183

Handy explanation for us non technical types IMO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 03, 2021, 08:24:26 am


Because the patent has expired and they're introducing a new drug! Duh.

You do realise it has been on the WHO's list of most essential human drugs for decades and won the Nobel Prize in 2015?

https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2015/campbell/facts/

We've known here about it since early 2000, but chose to run with 'we're thinking about starting up a trial that will start in 2024 and run to 2028' (terrific the sense of urgency)

There's also an earlier study - kills 99.98% in vitro - couldn't find it just now.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32251768/

You guys sure love the koolaid.

Israel - kaboom.

Three jabs now mandated....by early 2023 the 4th....notice a pattern?

Not getting it yet kids? (wondering why case numbers are exploding in Oz?)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 03, 2021, 08:26:19 am
https://au.news.yahoo.com/two-more-deaths-linked-to-astra-zeneca-vaccine-080602439.html

https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-02-09-2021

About to crack 500 reported deaths, but thankfully 486 of them are coincidences....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 03, 2021, 08:50:35 am
Just in case you missed it the 1st & 2nd time, Flyboy:
Quote
And as the delta variant continues to infect the nation, even Kory admits that ivermectin (the human kind) is no match for it, tweeting on Aug. 9, “I have experienced and am getting reports from FLCCC Alliance members that Delta variant patients crashing into ICU’s ... are not showing responses to MATH+. We are demoralized and frightened. Early treatment is CRITICAL. Every household should take I-MASK+ upon first symptoms.”
People Are Eating Horse Paste To Fight COVID. These Doctors Are One Reason Why, HuffPost. (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/horse-paste-ivermectin-flccc_n_612d1980e4b02be25b5edd15)

So, if your lead medical expert is dismayed by the lack of effectiveness of Ivermectin in the face of the Delta variant, isn’t the vaccine the only protection we have?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 03, 2021, 08:55:06 am
And just remember the wise words of Dr Eric Osgood, a former member of Dr Kory’s Alliance:
Quote
“[Ivermectin] shouldn’t have been promoted as a vaccine alternative or a miracle cure,” he said. “People are drinking sheep drench! If that’s not a call to use your clout and influence to say, ‘Enough is enough! Get your shots!’ then I just don’t know.”
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 03, 2021, 08:56:18 am
Because the patent has expired and they're introducing a new drug! Duh.

You do realise it has been on the WHO's list of most essential human drugs for decades and won the Nobel Prize in 2015?

https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2015/campbell/facts/

We've known here about it since early 2000, but chose to run with 'we're thinking about starting up a trial that will start in 2024 and run to 2028' (terrific the sense of urgency)

There's also an earlier study - kills 99.98% in vitro - couldn't find it just now.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32251768/

You guys sure love the koolaid.

Israel - kaboom.

Three jabs now mandated....by early 2023 the 4th....notice a pattern?

Not getting it yet kids? (wondering why case numbers are exploding in Oz?)

As you rightly point out Israel is proof that while vaccinations reduce the severity of Delta they do stuff all reducing transmission, in fact they may even accelerate transmission.

Therefore Dan dangling the carrot again saying relaxing of rules will occur once get to 70-80% vaccinated is absolute BS. 

This strain cant be contained even with stringent lockdowns such as we have had. Until our leaders accept that we must live with this and stop focusing on fear mongering 'case numbers' we will lose more young lives to suicide then we ever will lose to Delta (2 deaths in Victoria in last 10 months). 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 03, 2021, 09:04:57 am
You’re right: we can’t continue to protect the unvaccinated. It’s bad luck for them that they can’t rely upon herd immunity to protect them. Bring in vaccine passports and send them to the back of the queue if they catch Covid and then we can open up and improve the mental health of the youth.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 03, 2021, 09:18:16 am
You’re right: we can’t continue to protect the unvaccinated. It’s bad luck for them that they can’t rely upon herd immunity to protect them. Bring in vaccine passports and send them to the back of the queue if they catch Covid and then we can open up and improve the mental health of the youth.

Which bit aren't you understanding?

Looks to me like you're not even protecting yourself.

If vaccines work, how does my vaccination status affect you?

https://t.co/bUAsmNYNX7?amp=1

And these numbers include the obviously targeted sub groups - the immune compromised, the fatties, etc.

If you're otherwise healthy, the survival rates are higher again.

But you're keen to jump on the Israeli style jab for life program....your choice.

And I won't even start on the adverse events.

What a bed wetting society we have become....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 03, 2021, 09:22:31 am
By the by, did Dan stick to his word? We all know the answer...

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/huge-expansion-our-health-system-fight-coronavirus

Quote
01 April 2020
Victoria’s health system will receive a massive $1.3 billion injection to quickly establish an extra 4,000 ICU beds as we respond to the coronavirus pandemic and protect Victorian lives.

Premier Daniel Andrews and Minister for Health Jenny Mikakos announced the boost, which will secure the ICU equipment, staff and space we need to meet the expected surge in case load at the peak of the pandemic.

At present, Victoria’s public and private health services have approximately 450 fully equipped and staffed ICU beds, but we know that won’t be nearly enough if the spread of the coronavirus continues.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/as-world-watched-new-york-and-milan-victoria-tripled-icu-capacity-to-avoid-covid-nightmare-20210717-p58akm.html

Quote
Since last April Victoria has brought about 1600 new ICU and critical care beds online as part of a $1.3 billion healthcare investment, tripling the state’s capacity and doubling it in regional and rural areas. The funding included hospital building upgrades, ventilation improvements and critical care equipment purchases.

A new ICU unit has been built at Casey Hospital but much of the additional capacity has been found within the public health system by upgrading beds to be able to cater for critically-ill patients.

“Throughout the pandemic, health services across the globe have been overwhelmed by COVID-19 outbreaks. Luckily no health system in Australia has experienced this. We never wanted to see scenes like that repeated in Victoria,” a government spokesman said.

“Our unprecedented investment tripled Victoria’s ICU capacity with the ability to scale up even further [to 4000 beds] if required.

Note to bed wetters - there are currently 20 (twenty) CV19 ICU cases in Victoria (the whole bloody State).

https://www.health.gov.au/news/health-alerts/novel-coronavirus-2019-ncov-health-alert/coronavirus-covid-19-case-numbers-and-statistics#cases-admitted-to-hospital
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 03, 2021, 09:26:01 am
You’re right: we can’t continue to protect the unvaccinated. It’s bad luck for them that they can’t rely upon herd immunity to protect them. Bring in vaccine passports and send them to the back of the queue if they catch Covid and then we can open up and improve the mental health of the youth.

Yep that will work and yep that will happen. You really are a master thinker.

At least in your head anyway. 🤨
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 03, 2021, 09:29:09 am
Sorry if I offended you. I just assumed you were vaccinated like everyone else on here (save for Flyboy), but I can see how you'd take offence if you aren't. 

But take solace in Flyboy's statistical analysis. Your chances of catching Covid and needing hospitalisation are vanishingly small apparently and If you are sent to the back of the queue, it's not very long so you should be fine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 03, 2021, 10:02:04 am
Great getting more ICU beds /equipment but you need to train more ICU nurses as its a speciality field and stop the experienced ones leaving the profession and start paying them properly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 03, 2021, 10:44:20 am
By the by, did Dan stick to his word? We all know the answer...

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/huge-expansion-our-health-system-fight-coronavirus

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/as-world-watched-new-york-and-milan-victoria-tripled-icu-capacity-to-avoid-covid-nightmare-20210717-p58akm.html

Note to bed wetters - there are currently 20 (twenty) CV19 ICU cases in Victoria (the whole bloody State).

https://www.health.gov.au/news/health-alerts/novel-coronavirus-2019-ncov-health-alert/coronavirus-covid-19-case-numbers-and-statistics#cases-admitted-to-hospital

The BS media spin in this is out of control. Scare mongering with numbers that suit their narrative is beyond belief.

Hospital icu will be overrun yet only 20 cases in ICU across every hospital in the whole state!

This virus is dangerous, this variant attacks the young and is deadly……..  thousands of cases yet only 3 Deaths in 10 months.

Yet leaders refuse to acknowledge the souring  health rates, costs to the economy that out great grand children will be left to repay and unprecedented suicides.

And all this in the strictest and longest running lockdown in the WORLD!!

But the good news is according to Dan once we get to 80% vaccinated he will remove lockdowns (see Israel) .

Yeah that makes perfect sense.

We are a laughing stock.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on September 03, 2021, 11:07:30 am
The BS media spin in this is out of control. Scare mongering with numbers that suit their narrative is beyond belief.

Hospital icu will be overrun yet only 20 cases in ICU across every hospital in the whole state!

This virus is dangerous, this variant attacks the young and is deadly……..  thousands of cases yet only 3 Deaths in 10 months.

Yet leaders refuse to acknowledge the souring  health rates, costs to the economy that out great grand children will be left to repay and unprecedented suicides.

And all this in the strictest and longest running lockdown in the WORLD!!

But the good news is according to Dan once we get to 80% vaccinated he will remove lockdowns (see Israel) .

Yeah that makes perfect sense.

We are a laughing stock.

Are you not paying attention to what’s happening on NSW?

COVID patients are being intubated in ambulances because there are no beds for them.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 03, 2021, 11:21:03 am
Could the only 3 deaths from Covid thing have something to do with the Covid-0 thing for almost all of the 10 months?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 03, 2021, 11:51:59 am
1400 new cases in NSW and 12 Deaths.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 03, 2021, 12:05:52 pm
I don’t get peoples preoccupation with ‘the rest of the world is laughing at us’. According to who - Fox News presenters who would kill their own grandma for an extra buck.  The UK vaxed the Fck out of their population very fast and we are lucky to have SlowMo who told us it wasn’t a race!

A big problem is your hatred of Dan blinds you to the facts presented by health officials across the board including the AMA.  There are a smattering of epidemiologists such as Catherine Bennett who sways with the breeze, that say open up only at 70-80% first vax and even then slowly. The majority of them say keep closed as long as possible to drive down Numbers and increase vax rates.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 03, 2021, 12:06:21 pm
True, EB. As has been pointed out by experts, everyone in Australia will be exposed to Covid at some point. We're not in Kansas any more Toto. Each of us should do what we can to ensure that when we're exposed, our immune system can repel the invaders or at least minimise the extent of the subsequent illness. Obviously vaccines are a major part of our preparations, but masking and social distancing also help to reduce the extent of any exposure.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 03, 2021, 12:06:29 pm
The suicide stats have been shown time and again to be false, they are not bigger than ever before but should not be used as a throwaway line to ‘open up and let it rip’ - and I think you would agree that a pandemic is going to cause mental anguish for every person on the planet! Everyone has their own fears - whether they be money, business, health, loved ones, long Covid, their children’s health - mental/physical/both! Everyone is experiencing a degree of mental distress.    Regardless of lockdown.  States with no Covid have anxiety other states will give it to them, they worry for loved ones, being able to travel, their businesses.

We are in a pandemic.

The Victorian Chief Psychiatrist encourages and supports the measures in place, weighing up everything.

I won’t go on about that as people reading may be distressed and I don’t want to add to that - please seek support for yourself/loved ones and please be careful in how you speak of this issue as there are triggers.

Please seek help if you need it. Talk to someone, it will help.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on September 03, 2021, 12:10:27 pm
Nice post Micky.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 03, 2021, 12:13:23 pm
http://media.healthdirect.org.au/publications/healthdirect-Mental-Health-Services-Infographic_Apr-2021.pdf

Numbers for help lines.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 03, 2021, 12:30:02 pm
The BS media spin in this is out of control. Scare mongering with numbers that suit their narrative is beyond belief.

Hospital icu will be overrun yet only 20 cases in ICU across every hospital in the whole state!

This virus is dangerous, this variant attacks the young and is deadly……..  thousands of cases yet only 3 Deaths in 10 months.

Yet leaders refuse to acknowledge the souring  health rates, costs to the economy that out great grand children will be left to repay and unprecedented suicides.

And all this in the strictest and longest running lockdown in the WORLD!!

But the good news is according to Dan once we get to 80% vaccinated he will remove lockdowns (see Israel) .

Yeah that makes perfect sense.

We are a laughing stock.
Compare deaths overseas vs deaths here.
Compare lockdowns overseas vs lockdowns here.

I suspect you will find a very similar bell curve, and its not a coincidence.

Prevention is better than the cure.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 03, 2021, 01:08:53 pm
The suicide stats have been shown time and again to be false, they are not bigger than ever before but should not be used as a throwaway line to ‘open up and let it rip’ - and I think you would agree that a pandemic is going to cause mental anguish for every person on the planet! Everyone has their own fears - whether they be money, business, health, loved ones, long Covid, their children’s health - mental/physical/both! Everyone is experiencing a degree of mental distress.    Regardless of lockdown.  States with no Covid have anxiety other states will give it to them, they worry for loved ones, being able to travel, their businesses.

We are in a pandemic.

The Victorian Chief Psychiatrist encourages and supports the measures in place, weighing up everything.

I won’t go on about that as people reading may be distressed and I don’t want to add to that - please seek support for yourself/loved ones and please be careful in how you speak of this issue as there are triggers.

Please seek help if you need it. Talk to someone, it will help.
Well said, Micky.

Yes, the lockdowns do add another level of stress and may expose some vulnerabilities that were being managed for a great number of individuals. It could be a tipping point for some.

I, along with you, would strongly urge anyone experiencing mental health issues -- especially anxiety & depressive problems -- to acknowledge their difficulties and reach out for support, you are not alone and there are plenty of appropriately experienced folks to offer support and effective strategies for dealing with these harsh realities. It is NOT an indication of any weakness to ask for help... in fact, it's quite the opposite - courageous.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 03, 2021, 01:17:29 pm
Prevention is better than the cure.

Agree but there is always a tipping point and IMO in this state we have passed it.   My point is we cant continue to live this way and sadly there is no credible roadmap out of it as Dan is obsessed with case numbers and wants close to zero before relaxing restrictions. Blind Freddie knows that is not going to happen.

Thing is if the government really want those on the fence to believe their spin that the vaccine is the answer and the way out of these lockdowns explain to me why there isn't freedoms that only apply to citizens that have had both jabs? Why do those who had had it have to wait for others who are dragging there feet. Wouldn't it push all those who have doubts if they can actually see the extra freedom the vaccines provides them. Since the very start of Pandemic our leader just talks and talks before changing the goalposts time and time again. How are you supposed to really believe anything that comes out of his mouth

I know several people who have had both shots - they are locked up like me.
 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 03, 2021, 01:55:44 pm
Can you remind of us of any occasion where Dan Andrews has said there will be just 1 fixed response to Covid? If you can, then we'll happily concede he lied. But I think you'll find that he has made the obvious point repeatedly that the response will change as the circumstances change. When there was 0 Covid restrictions were relaxed and when outbreaks occurred lockdowns were imposed. By the way, you might have missed it but he has recently accepted that there'll be no return to Covid-0, so he has flagged that the response now will change to ensure the numbers stay manageable. Moving the goalposts? I'd say Gladys and the Delta variant have moved us to a wholly new stadium. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 03, 2021, 02:06:07 pm
Thank your lucky stars that we ain't living under palacechooks pyonyang paradise.  Disgusting.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 03, 2021, 02:39:18 pm

I know several people who have had both shots - they are locked up like me.
 
My partner and I have both had both shots - it is unfortunately what it is.  I’ll continue to do as asked for the greater good and that is for others to get vaxxed too to give those of us who want the vax to have a chance of living with Covid hopefully reasonably unaffected.

It’s absolutely unbelievable that people are having to wait - the rollout has been an absolute fail! Why every school/community centre etc wasn’t enlisted to become a vaccination centre with more than enough for everyone, clear guidelines on how to get an appt etc. it’s an embarrassment the farce the Feds have shown.

But I guess when you ‘don’t hold a hose mate’ and continue to get away with your inept governance by 70% Murdoch run media in this country, then this type of thing is our reward. Hopeless.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 03, 2021, 04:10:06 pm
The suicide stats have been shown time and again to be false, they are not bigger than ever before

Stop talking out of your arse.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on September 03, 2021, 04:18:31 pm
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-20/rise-of-self-harm-mental-health-services-covid-pandemic/100305640

This article is from July this year. For Victoria, NSW, and Queensland, rates of suicide have not increased since the start of the pandemic. There have been increases in calls to mental support services, and increase in attempts to self harm.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 03, 2021, 04:21:24 pm
A lot has happened since July Paul.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on September 03, 2021, 04:26:32 pm
A lot has happened since July Paul.

Maybe, but i can't find anything online that seems reliable and is more recent than July.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 03, 2021, 04:35:25 pm
Stop talking out of your arse.
Really?

July was 4 weeks ago.

The fact remains a Pandemic pushes everyone into distress at varying degrees, absolutely.

Anyway not going to continue to talk about it for reasons said earlier.  Just because anecdotally you’ve heard of this person or that person, doesn’t mean it’s more due only to being in a lockdown.

We have someone close to our family attempt - 17yo. Thankfully found in time, he had prior mental health conditions and has now been diagnosed with one and getting the help needed.  That was between lockdowns.

Anyway as I said earlier I don’t want to distress anyone so would prefer not to keep talking about it save to say the world has changed in the past 18months and that’s unsettling to me, and I suspect everyone.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 03, 2021, 05:06:08 pm
I'll leave this with you - if you think anything will change with 70% or 80% vaxx rates.

My 8yo can assist with interpreting the numbers.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 03, 2021, 05:12:32 pm
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-20/rise-of-self-harm-mental-health-services-covid-pandemic/100305640

This article is from July this year. For Victoria, NSW, and Queensland, rates of suicide have not increased since the start of the pandemic. There have been increases in calls to mental support services, and increase in attempts to self harm.

Can't comment about the suicide rate (haven't seen data) but I have heard first hand anecdotal stories from paramedics.

Self harm - a clear, well defined precursor to suicide - often a 6 to 18 month lag, is off the charts. And some....

That comes from a very high up dude I know in a very high up place.

So we have a choice here - open up and a few vulnerable types will get very ill and a fewer number again may die (and by all means get vaxxed if you want to - all power to you)

OR

do what we are doing & sacrifice a generation of kids (and see many more deaths).

Destroy pretty much all small business and bump the domestic/familial violence stats skyward.

The choice is clear.

Don't be a bed wetter.

ps if certain people want to lock themselves behind doors on an ongoing basis, knock yourself out. Freedom of choice!

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 03, 2021, 05:23:05 pm
Discussed this before and I will concur with Fly on the Paramedics stories, we have Paramedic connections in the family and both have said callouts for mental health issues related to CoVid are high. As I have said before only if a patient is admitted to hospital do they become a statistic so unsuccessful suicides who recover on location for example wont make the stat sheets.
Even the ambulance crews are drug tested more due to the stress levels and nursing is a profession that has always had its problems with addictions and that has also got worse during CoVid.
The TV series Nurse Jackie was entertaining but the bottom line was she was on the gear and getting it from inhouse sources.....whoever wrote that show wasnt making it up and our frontline heathcare workers are strung out with CoVid and we are going to lose some of the best in the business thanks to the lack of Government support and I suspect its the same in most States.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on September 03, 2021, 05:27:00 pm
This is a pretty touchy subject, and I think we need to tread carefully.

Anecdotal stories have their place, but they are not a substitute for a good sample space of tabulated data that enables us to see the bigger picture, the broad societal trends. Until such information is forthcoming, I suggest we park the anecdotal fallacies, and the Appeal to Authority fallacy, and pause for a moment.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 03, 2021, 05:31:49 pm
Can't comment about the suicide rate (haven't seen data) but I have heard first hand anecdotal stories from paramedics.

Self harm - a clear, well defined precursor to suicide - often a 6 to 18 month lag, is off the charts. And some.... What!

That comes from a very high up dude I know in a very high up place. Jesus?

So we have a choice here - open up and a few vulnerable types will get very ill and a fewer number again may die (and by all means get vaxxed if you want to - all power to you)

OR

do what we are doing & sacrifice a generation of kids (and see many more deaths).

Destroy pretty much all small business and bump the domestic/familial violence stats skyward.

The choice is clear.

Don't be a bed wetter.

ps if certain people want to lock themselves behind doors on an ongoing basis, knock yourself out. Freedom of choice!


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 03, 2021, 05:47:19 pm

Self harm - a clear, well defined precursor to suicide - often a 6 to 18 month lag, is off the charts. And some....


An extremely irresponsible assertion on your part. You should delete this post. Did you even consider who might be reading this comment? Whoever told you this is totally wrong. Self-harm does NOT automatically assume suicide. Terrible post. I'd be happy to illuminate you on the facts, re self-harm by PM.

Anyone who has a relative/loved one/friend who self-harms, please DON'T be alarmed by 77s assertion. Treatment and care for these folks is often very successful.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 03, 2021, 05:54:10 pm
This is a pretty touchy subject, and I think we need to tread carefully.

Anecdotal stories have their place, but they are not a substitute for a good sample space of tabulated data that enables us to see the bigger picture, the broad societal trends. Until such information is forthcoming, I suggest we park the anecdotal fallacies, and the Appeal to Authority fallacy, and pause for a moment.
I'd have a bit more faith in the anecdotal stories from real people at the coalface than the selective Govt stats.....
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-12/paramedics-have-one-of-australias-most-dangerous-jobs/12872962
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 03, 2021, 05:54:55 pm
An extremely irresponsible assertion on your part. You should delete this post. Did you even consider who might be reading this comment? Whoever told you this is totally wrong. Self-harm does NOT automatically assume suicide. Terrible post. I'd be happy to illuminate you on the facts, re self-harm by PM.

Anyone who has a relative/loved one/friend who self-harms, please DON'T be alarmed by 77s assertion. Treatment and care for these folks is often very successful.

Why is that irresponsible? Was I making light of the problem? Quite the contrary.

Did I say every instance of A leads to B?

Of course it depends on the individual circumstances.

And if a mod considers it should be taken down, we'll I'll accept that without question.

And you can illuminate me can you?

As you've said to me often enough, do I care what you think?

 I think my source has illuminated me well enough thanks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 03, 2021, 06:02:17 pm
By the by, for the bed wetting society who says we can't open up because Armageddon..ala Dan's dopey Burnet modelling.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/uk-daily-covid-admissions

And the UK has had well over 30k cases a day for weeks now.

Let's say an average of 35000 cases....

Or here:

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 03, 2021, 06:14:02 pm
https://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw-premier-covid-vaccine-boosters-needed-annually-064431477.html
In the USA which is mainly a Pfizer vaccinated population Boosters are being recommended at 8 months so anyone here in Aus who was was part off the early vaccination process will probably need another in a couple of months.
Without Boosters we will be right back where we started and I think the Govt will have trouble selling the idea thats its the same deal as your ordinary flu shot which is aimed at the 65 plus age group.
We also need more data and testing with regards Boosters and their side effects etc, its a long way from over even with high Vaccination rates and IMO the important stat will be maintaining high vaccination rates and how to get the vaccinated to return at the same levels every 8-12 months.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 03, 2021, 06:41:09 pm
And to round the story out, here's the UK death numbers....

Loose numbers 175 death a day in UK from people 'with' CV19.

Average age circa 80+ (but I need to firm that up).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 03, 2021, 06:53:39 pm
And to round the story out, here's the UK death numbers....

Loose numbers 175 death a day in UK from people 'with' CV19.
"Loose numbers" is I gather your term for .................... not quite true in this context?

175 deaths in a day is the global average for the whole UK pandemic, 87 UK deaths yesterday from COVID, how many were vaccinated? ;)

Since Freedom Day the UK is average 104 deaths a day, early reports are that 98% of them are unvaccinated, but it will take several more weeks before the numbers are finalised as they use 28 days as the critical cut-off.

Up massively since the lockdown ended, but I thought you stated lockdowns do not work?


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 03, 2021, 07:13:51 pm
An extremely irresponsible assertion on your part. You should delete this post. Did you even consider who might be reading this comment? Whoever told you this is totally wrong. Self-harm does NOT automatically assume suicide. Terrible post. I'd be happy to illuminate you on the facts, re self-harm by PM.

Anyone who has a relative/loved one/friend who self-harms, please DON'T be alarmed by 77s assertion. Treatment and care for these folks is often very successful.

But you're back slapping people here saying suicide is not up based on numbers from before our current lockdown? Are you that politically bias or that stupid?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 03, 2021, 07:32:32 pm
"Loose numbers" is I gather your term for .................... not quite true in this context?

175 deaths in a day is the global average for the whole UK pandemic, 87 UK deaths yesterday from COVID, how many were vaccinated? ;)

Since Freedom Day the UK is average 104 deaths a day, early reports are that 98% of them are unvaccinated, but it will take several more weeks before the numbers are finalised as they use 28 days as the critical cut-off.

Up massively since the lockdown ended, but I thought you stated lockdowns do not work?




I've seen you trying to be 'cute' before. You're a fail. Not up for debate. Sorry.

I put the chart up - and here it is again.....feel free to run an average....i didn't feel a need to be accurate to 4 dp. Feel free.

If that's your best shot, you're conceding the argument.

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths

Now, and expecting a few ranters on the source, here's Robert Malone, talking some sense.

Even LP will learn something, but he would never admit it.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/dr-robert-malone-mrna-vaccine-inventor-on-latest-covid-19-data-booster-shots-and-the-shattered-scientific-consensus_3979206.html?utm_source=Morningbrief&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=mb-2021-09-03&est=NhIwyl3%2F23HMGNDgSzAT9UGpgE%2B2W6C9VAH%2Fbh4zanea2KVnkLwwXhwudgsVzPDMwFGicLj8HuTR






Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 03, 2021, 07:45:14 pm
https://www.news.com.au/world/uk-cases-have-flatlined-since-freedom-day/video/87ca2f2b0bd07b85888ecc38bb1922bd

Sorry to ruin your spin...LP?

"Loose numbers" is I gather your term for .................... not quite true in this context?

175 deaths in a day is the global average for the whole UK pandemic, 87 UK deaths yesterday from COVID, how many were vaccinated? ;)

Since Freedom Day the UK is average 104 deaths a day, early reports are that 98% of them are unvaccinated, but it will take several more weeks before the numbers are finalised as they use 28 days as the critical cut-off.

Up massively since the lockdown ended, but I thought you stated lockdowns do not work?




LP says

Quote
Up massively since the lockdown ended,

Feel free to help him see the explosion....in the attached picture...clearly needs help.

You left yourself exposed there LP. You're better than that right?


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 03, 2021, 08:29:17 pm
Can you remind of us of any occasion where Dan Andrews has said there will be just 1 fixed response to Covid? If you can, then we'll happily concede he lied. But I think you'll find that he has made the obvious point repeatedly that the response will change as the circumstances change. When there was 0 Covid restrictions were relaxed and when outbreaks occurred lockdowns were imposed. By the way, you might have missed it but he has recently accepted that there'll be no return to Covid-0, so he has flagged that the response now will change to ensure the numbers stay manageable. Moving the goalposts? I'd say Gladys and the Delta variant have moved us to a wholly new stadium. 
Are we talking about the same man here.

Can’t be.

The one I was referring to lied under oath with the old  ‘i can’t recall’ to several questions? 

I guess you believed him with that? Yeah of course you did.

That’s it for me on this.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 03, 2021, 09:16:19 pm
By the by, for the bed wetting society who says we can't open up because Armageddon..ala Dan's dopey Burnet modelling.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/uk-daily-covid-admissions

And the UK has had well over 30k cases a day for weeks now.

Let's say an average of 35000 cases....

Or here:

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare



What are you actually trying to say?

UK has heaps of cases.....because they have a higher vaccination rate compared to us....and they've opened up.

Isn't that common sense?

Isn't the whole reason we are in lockdown because our vaccination rate is not comparable to the rest of the world......we've been too slow to vaccinate because we did so well with cases early. Now its come back to bite us.

So i ask again, what is your point?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 03, 2021, 09:23:58 pm
Kruddler, you have to understand that Flyboy doesn't believe the vaccines have any effect or should I say any positive effect. It seems he believes that vaccinations actually cause Covid infections. So, as the Clint Eastwood quote goes, "What we have here is a failure to communicate".
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 03, 2021, 09:25:24 pm
Kruddler, you have to understand that Flyboy doesn't believe the vaccines have any effect or should I say any positive effect. It seems he believes that vaccinations actually cause Covid infections. So, as the Clint Eastwood quote goes, "What we have here is a failure to communicate".

I usually understand what he is at least trying to say, even if it flawed logic. I can't really find any logic in that at all, flawed or otherwise.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 03, 2021, 09:25:37 pm
It's important for those interested to understand what they might be looking at and how it is represented.

Over what period the data is collected, how it is represented and how it is charted and what is it discussed against.

For example, if you are looking for a short term trend over the last month or so, then reporting the data as an average of the whole of last year or even from the start of the epidemic will misrepresent what is being discussed, the context of the discussion is important.

If a entity links to a logarithmic chart and makes a statement in relation to some earlier linear change, the graph can easily be misrepresented. Fortunately the links provided in some of the reports above allow the viewer to choose the data period, as well as the linear or logarithmic representation.

For example UK Freedom Day is a bit over a month ago, so offering a chart that averages the data from the last month data with all the data of the last year and claiming things haven't changed much is quite deceptive. Of course in recent days the average won't change much, it can't because the recent data is so small relative to the amount of historical data.

Of course if you are anti-lockdown it paints a good picture for opening up if you report that total pandemic averages have changed little in the last month or so since Freedom Day.

Sometimes when critics respond it can be the parts of the response that are absent from a reply that can be the real tell. For example, the current issue that the a massive percentage of recent UK deaths come from unvaccinated.

And also, if you were anti-vaccine it is not convenient to respond to the point that a large percentage of people currently perishing since Freedom Day are unvaccinated, regardless of however many deaths are occurring.

It's an obvious effect of opening up with a large percentage of the population already vaccinated, that you'll have an explosion of cases in unvaccinated. But the unvaccinated sacrificial lamb part of these events seem to be conveniently ignored by some!

In any case, we know that the high vaccine efficacy prevents severe disease, the vaccine stop people dying but they do not stop people being infected.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 03, 2021, 09:29:02 pm
I usually understand what he is at least trying to say, even if it flawed logic. I can't really find any logic in that at all, flawed or otherwise.
I don't think you'll find any logic at all, that may be your problem! ;D

I've never seen a COVID critic so eager to publish some data that shows them to be wrong!

Personally, I mentioned this before, it's awkwardly cherry-picking the odd chart and trying to spin it as some form of anti-COVID / anti-vax support, either in the hope nobody actually looks deeply at the data, or perhaps lazily not having looked deeper at the data before listing it. Because so often the links actually assert the exact opposite of what Flyboy spins!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 03, 2021, 09:34:30 pm
I don't think you'll find any logic at all, that may be your problem! ;D

I've never seen a COVID critic so eager to publish some data that shows them to be wrong!

Thats ok.

I've had a few tonight, but i didn't think i'd had that many!  :o

It makes sense that it doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 04, 2021, 03:44:38 pm
Hopefully Flyboy can explain how this article fits in to his theory that Covid can't overwhelm the health system:
‘Stressed’ Victorian hospitals brace for COVID’s third wave (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/stressed-victorian-hospitals-brace-for-covid-s-third-wave-20210903-p58ols.html), The Age.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 04, 2021, 06:30:04 pm
Notice how our government have softened their stance in the last week despite numbers skyrocketing?
I'm sure it has nothing to do with the big union rally planned for the 18th September.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 04, 2021, 07:28:48 pm
Are they holding the rally in a playground?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 04, 2021, 08:25:00 pm
Are they holding the rally in a playground?

Why not. Dan said they are now very safe so would be a good place for a protest.

I’m sure you remember the playgrounds - that was where (based on medical advice of course) ‘I can’t remember’ Dan had no option but to close them rope them off and deem them unsafe. This all happened when we had just 20 cases a day (6 million population).

But then typically he flips and re opens them when we are averaging 200 cases a day! but is all good as thankfully again it’s based on the sound medical advise he is receiving.

Makes perfect sense ‘ I can’t recall’ Dan.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on September 04, 2021, 09:10:17 pm
We keep being told that when 70 percent of the adult population is vaccinated restrictions will ease, the states will begin opening up, and we can all be more positive about the near future.

And yet in Northern Ireland yesterday, with a population of 1.5 million people and 73 percent of the adult population fully vaccinated, there were 1,460 cases of covid and nine deaths recorded.

Also, it was reported that their hospitals are overwhelmed with covid cases and in the last three weeks 176 of their red flag cancer operations have had to be postponed.

It seems that the Federal government is hiding the reality of what lies ahead for us in the months leading up to Christmas and beyond.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on September 04, 2021, 09:17:32 pm
The politicians and the populace need some good news and some hope for the future, which is fair enough. But I don't think the science is on the same page :

https://theconversation.com/opening-up-when-80-of-eligible-adults-are-vaccinated-wont-be-safe-for-all-australians-166818
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on September 05, 2021, 12:54:56 am
We keep being told that when 70 percent of the adult population is vaccinated restrictions will ease, the states will begin opening up, and we can all be more positive about the near future.

And yet in Northern Ireland yesterday, with a population of 1.5 million people and 73 percent of the adult population fully vaccinated, there were 1,460 cases of covid and nine deaths recorded.

Also, it was reported that their hospitals are overwhelmed with covid cases and in the last three weeks 176 of their red flag cancer operations have had to be postponed.

It seems that the Federal government is hiding the reality of what lies ahead for us in the months leading up to Christmas and beyond.

I have my doubts it is exclusively the Federal Government. I think the national cabinet is well aware.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on September 05, 2021, 02:06:47 am
I think this is an interesting watch:
https://youtu.be/J5D44HWw68U

Pay particular attention to Prof Bowtells segment.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on September 05, 2021, 05:28:11 pm
I like Bowtell. His opinion is straight to the point and easily understood, unlike so much of the political waffle we have to endure on a daily basis.

I was disturbed to hear on late night news yesterday that bayside suburbs from Elwood to Black Rock had 45 percent of the eligible adult population double vaccinated while suburbs in the north and west currently with the highest covid cases had vaccination rates of the same group at a low 23 percent.

If the current high level of infection is not enough to motivate people in those areas to vaccinate, I don't know what will.

It would seem that the light at the end of the tunnel representing 80 percent double vaccination is diminishing to a pinprick of light.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 05, 2021, 06:36:35 pm
I like Bowtell. His opinion is straight to the point and easily understood, unlike so much of the political waffle we have to endure on a daily basis.

I was disturbed to hear on late night news yesterday that bayside suburbs from Elwood to Black Rock had 45 percent of the eligible adult population double vaccinated while suburbs in the north and west currently with the highest covid cases had vaccination rates of the same group at a low 23 percent.

If the current high level of infection is not enough to motivate people in those areas to vaccinate, I don't know what will.

It would seem that the light at the end of the tunnel representing 80 percent double vaccination is diminishing to a pinprick of light.


The wealthier suburbs always have a higher takeup, think its the same story in Sydney too with the west lagging the others.
Lack of education, poor English skills etc due to higher migrant population lead to that poorer understanding of how serious things are. They rely a lot on leadership from the different communities to show the way and the Government need to zero in on those leaders and help them spread the word.
The 80% is a bit of furphy given its 80% of the adult population they are talking about...IMHO it will need to be 70-80% of the entire population including eligible children and thats going to be a hard sell getting parents to agree to getting youngsters jabbed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 05, 2021, 08:32:17 pm
The government funded SBS?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on September 05, 2021, 11:10:51 pm
The wealthier suburbs always have a higher takeup, think its the same story in Sydney too with the west lagging the others.
Lack of education, poor English skills etc due to higher migrant population lead to that poorer understanding of how serious things are. They rely a lot on leadership from the different communities to show the way and the Government need to zero on on those leaders and help them spread the word.
The 80% is a bit of furphy given its 80% of the adult population they are talking about...IMHO it will need to be 70-80% of the entire population including eligible children and thats going to be a hard sell getting parents to agree to getting youngsters jabbed.


I think during the second or third lockdown it was realised that in just the City of Wyndham residents speak  a combined total of 150 different languages and dialects.   I gained the impression that community leaders were approached then to try to get the importance of testing and vaccination through to their communities.

Compounding the problem is the fact that a minority of residents are not able to read or write in their own language,  ensuring that they will be unaware of how our society operates.

The 80% is a furphy if it does not include eligible children.  Without them included the true vaccination rate falls to the low 50s, well below the safe figure for opening up. If Gladys and the PM continue building false expectations based on 80% of vaccinated adults only, then our hospital sector is going to be placed in an impossible position.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 06, 2021, 01:04:47 pm
The 80% is a furphy if it does not include eligible children.  Without them included the true vaccination rate falls to the low 50s, well below the safe figure for opening up. If Gladys and the PM continue building false expectations based on 80% of vaccinated adults only, then our hospital sector is going to be placed in an impossible position.
My concern isn't the vaccination of children in the short term, as the data appears to support the idea that "in the short term" Sars-CoV-2 isn't going to cause severe illness in children. However, I do worry about the long term effects in those infected children and what impact that may have on the health system. Children, especially very young children, are not cheap to treat and there are far fewer specialist resources available for them with most being centrally located!

On opening up, in terms of Delta the 80% vaccination rate in adults is almost the bare minimum. It's basically tripping over the finish line in last place.

It looks like Gladys Burythemall's procrastination has ultimately brought NSW undone, epidemiologists were predicting 2000 cases a day a couple of weeks back, and I thought NSW did well to keep that in check, but in reality all the half-ar5ed restrictions did was slow the rise in numbers. They are now predicting 2000 day within the next fortnight. NSW just isn't locking down hard enough and haven't had anywhere near the vaccine uptake they need, sooner or later they will be forced to lockdown really hard as hospitals overload.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 06, 2021, 01:16:37 pm
Victoria's cases are going up quicker.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 06, 2021, 01:42:24 pm
Victoria's cases are going up quicker.
I presume you mean as a percentage of each state's case count, because in the last 7 days Vic had roughly 450 new cases(+65%), while NSW had about 9500(+30%)?

I still do not get the point you are trying to make, what you are trying to assert or what you want to claim!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 06, 2021, 02:05:20 pm
I presume you mean as a percentage of each state's case count, because in the last 7 days Vic had roughly 450 new cases(+65%), while NSW had about 9500(+30%)?

I still do not get the point you are trying to make, what you are trying to assert or what you want to claim!

Go from zero. Basic math as you love to say.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 06, 2021, 02:17:45 pm
Go from zero. Basic math as you love to say.
I suppose assuming the contact tracing was a constant it might have some relevance, otherwise you must make adjustments for how that has changed over time to get a viable relative measure. Remember the argy-bargy over which state was better, that exists because they are/were different.

Also to be pedantic how each jurisdiction define a positive might be an issue, also how each jurisdiction positives, I'm not sure if we have a Federal standard yet.

Of course the starting point is relative when you discuss percentages, going from 1 case to 2 is 100% increase. Just like the original wave, the worst figures come early on, the real trend is only resolved after a much longer period.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 06, 2021, 02:20:10 pm
Victoria's cases are going up quicker.

You thought otherwise?

When you have 1000's of protesters together, this was the only result that could have happened....and i don;t think we've peaked out yet.

FWIW, my brother got a message that he was at a tier 1 site.....it was later downgraded to tier 2 (he's negative)...the site? Vaccination centre!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on September 07, 2021, 04:26:34 pm
I've just got back from Bunnings.  I have a ticket that would get me inside during the lockdown but, if I do need something urgently, I click and collect.  Two blokes left the store while I was waiting for my order, .  One had a bottle of Seasol and was wearing his mask under his chin.  The other bloke had a can of spray paint and had his mask under his nose  ::)

On the way home I heard reports about the religious gathering in Ripponlea  >:(

There really are some farkwits out there!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 07, 2021, 04:30:38 pm
One had a bottle of Seasoland was wearing his mask under his chin.  The other bloke had a can of spray paintand had his mask under his nose  ::)
You've got to get the layout of the garden beds just right, it's nearly peak growing season for weed! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 07, 2021, 04:36:15 pm
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/09/these-scientists-are-developing-a-single-vaccine-to-combat-every-different-covid-19-variant/ (https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/09/these-scientists-are-developing-a-single-vaccine-to-combat-every-different-covid-19-variant/)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on September 07, 2021, 05:54:04 pm
Sounds like its going to get very nasty down at Ripponlea..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 07, 2021, 07:22:10 pm
Sounds like its going to get very nasty down at Ripponlea..
Drunken New Years revellers!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 07, 2021, 08:52:37 pm
I've just got back from Bunnings.  I have a ticket that would get me inside during the lockdown but, if I do need something urgently, I click and collect.  Two blokes left the store while I was waiting for my order, .  One had a bottle of Seasol and was wearing his mask under his chin.  The other bloke had a can of spray paint and had his mask under his nose  ::)

On the way home I heard reports about the religious gathering in Ripponlea  >:(

There really are some farkwits out there!

Curious what were you there for?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on September 07, 2021, 10:13:50 pm
Razor wire,  a hacksaw,  cable ties,  4 by 2s,  nails.... Beefing up the old home security?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on September 08, 2021, 02:47:45 am
Interesting watch. I have not heard a lot about them here.

Did SWEDEN have the right COVID-19 STRATEGY all along?
https://youtu.be/8IBo1KvNSX4
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 08, 2021, 08:05:40 am
Curious what were you there for?
Weed killer?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 08, 2021, 08:22:36 am
Interesting watch. I have not heard a lot about them here.

Did SWEDEN have the right COVID-19 STRATEGY all along?
https://youtu.be/8IBo1KvNSX4
Sweden like Israel has one of the highest vaccination rates going around, they are already up near 80% despite also having one of Europe's highest infection rates. ( A bit ironic given the anti-vaxers hold them up as an example for herd immunity. ) I think that combined with other various restrictions and measures they did or didn't take made it a more dynamic environment, but keep in mind they still have had 15,000 people perish to get to this point!

They suffered a significant recent (over Sweden's winter) increase in deaths, as the toll of not locking down affects the vulnerable population. There may be other geographic and societal considerations as well, that may have an impact on how Sars-CoV-2 is transmitted and survives in the environment.

We've seen these seasonal trends before starting with the 1st wave, people always come out and talk about such trends like they are definitive but I feel that is based on the individual politics of the groups involved. Nobody and no region seems to escape the long term effects, you can only delay them to save lives in the process.

The biggest tell might be that bordering countries surrounding Sweden had about 1/5th the Swedish death rate.

Fans of anti-lockdown tout Sweden as the solution, but the economic price it has paid is still quite high, having been ostracised by many of it's neighbours it paid a pretty high economic price, still had the high death rates and now has a significant long term long COVID health cost / burden.

Perhaps, it really comes down to the political price put on a life!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on September 08, 2021, 11:40:43 am
I don’t really agree with this sort of site, it can be a continuation of the division that has dominated politics (and seemingly life) for the past 10-15 years, admin feel free to chop it if you desire.

There was talk earlier about anti vaxers who had met their match in COVID…

https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 08, 2021, 12:46:36 pm
For those of us with friends or relatives in the USA things are looking grim over there, too many lockdown dissenters and anti-vaxers, some US states are starting to see hospitals get overrun.

So they are resorting to selective treatment, that is those with the best prospect of survival gets treatment the rest must fend for themselves. I've a friend/associate in the southern states who has a daughter working in emergency health care, for years he's been a leave it up to God's will type, declining vaccines and espousing freedom of choice, the stereotypical profile. Now, as he watches his king hearted daughter struggle and crumble under the pressure of being part of an overwhelmed health system he finally gets it, but for so so many it way too late! The straw that broke the camels back for his daughter was arriving at work and seeing heavily armed guards / private security refusing ill people entry to the hospital, maybe 1 in 10 gets past the outdoor triage tent!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: tonyo on September 08, 2021, 12:52:23 pm
Sweden like Israel has one of the highest vaccination rates going around, they are already up near 80% despite also having one of Europe's highest infection rates. ( A bit ironic given the anti-vaxers hold them up as an example for herd immunity. ) I think that combined with other various restrictions and measures they did or didn't take made it a more dynamic environment, but keep in mind they still have had 15,000 people perish to get to this point!

They suffered a significant recent (over Sweden's winter) increase in deaths, as the toll of not locking down affects the vulnerable population. There may be other geographic and societal considerations as well, that may have an impact on how Sars-CoV-2 is transmitted and survives in the environment.

We've seen these seasonal trends before starting with the 1st wave, people always come out and talk about such trends like they are definitive but I feel that is based on the individual politics of the groups involved. Nobody and no region seems to escape the long term effects, you can only delay them to save lives in the process.

The biggest tell might be that bordering countries surrounding Sweden had about 1/5th the Swedish death rate.

Fans of anti-lockdown tout Sweden as the solution, but the economic price it has paid is still quite high, having been ostracised by many of it's neighbours it paid a pretty high economic price, still had the high death rates and now has a significant long term long COVID health cost / burden.

Perhaps, it really comes down to the political price put on a life!

The King of Sweden admitted in December that they had got it wrong, due to the amount of death, especially among the elderly.

That's the problem with just quoting statistics - it looks at cases and deaths like it's a batting average for a cricketer.  It doesn't consider the stories behind the statistics, and the people and their families who have suffered.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 08, 2021, 12:57:32 pm
For those of us with friends or relatives in the USA things are looking grim over there, too many lockdown dissenters and anti-vaxers, some US states are starting to see hospitals get overrun.

So they are resorting to selective treatment, that is those with the best prospect of survival gets treatment the rest must fend for themselves. I've a friend/associate in the southern states who has a daughter working in emergency health care, for years he's been a leave it up to God's will type, declining vaccines and espousing freedom of choice, the stereotypical profile. Now, as he watches his king hearted daughter struggle and crumble under the pressure of being part of an overwhelmed health system he finally gets it, but for so so many it way too late! The straw that broke the camels back for his daughter was arriving at work and seeing heavily armed guards / private security refusing ill people entry to the hospital, maybe 1 in 10 gets past the outdoor triage tent!
A normal day pre Covid in the USA public hospital system is for the ER's to shut around 10pm and the long line of people waiting to be told to come back the next day and try again.The land of milk and honey isnt so sweet if you dont have money and private health insurance, hopefully we never get that like here in Australia and turn sick people away.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 08, 2021, 01:09:44 pm
A normal day pre Covid in the USA public hospital system is for the ER's to shut around 10pm and the long line of people waiting to be told to come back the next day and try again.The land of milk and honey isnt so sweet if you dont have money and private health insurance, hopefully we never get that like here in Australia and turn sick people away.
Under COVID there are health locations here now in NSW and Vic that are already like that, they sit all day and get the come back at 8am tomorrow and you might see a doctor!
 
PS; There is an interesting tension that exists under the health care system already. A triage nurse told somebody I know recently in the future not to come into ED under their own steam, in the future call an ambulance and you will be seen immediately on arrival. But of course the stretched ambulance service is saying do not call an ambulance unless you really need it! I can't believe this is the situation where our State and Federal Health systems have landed!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 08, 2021, 01:42:31 pm
For those of us with friends or relatives in the USA things are looking grim over there, too many lockdown dissenters and anti-vaxers, some US states are starting to see hospitals get overrun.

So they are resorting to selective treatment, that is those with the best prospect of survival gets treatment the rest must fend for themselves. I've a friend/associate in the southern states who has a daughter working in emergency health care, for years he's been a leave it up to God's will type, declining vaccines and espousing freedom of choice, the stereotypical profile. Now, as he watches his king hearted daughter struggle and crumble under the pressure of being part of an overwhelmed health system he finally gets it, but for so so many it way too late! The straw that broke the camels back for his daughter was arriving at work and seeing heavily armed guards / private security refusing ill people entry to the hospital, maybe 1 in 10 gets past the outdoor triage tent!
Which is why they should adjust the admission protocols to put the unvaccinated at the back of the queue. If you do the right thing and vaccinate yourself but you still get a breakthrough infection, your reward is to be up the front of the queue. But if you declare you have the freedom to choose not to vaccinate, you have the freedom to wait at the back of the queue in the hope you'll be seen.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 08, 2021, 01:50:17 pm
I don’t really agree with this sort of site, it can be a continuation of the division that has dominated politics (and seemingly life) for the past 10-15 years, admin feel free to chop it if you desire.

There was talk earlier about anti vaxers who had met their match in COVID…

https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/
Such a site would be useful if anti-vaxxers & vaccine hesitant people would surf it. But let's face it, they don't want to hear bad news. Far better for online news sites to run stories about prominent anti-vaxxers who die as anti-vaxxers & vaccine hesitant internet surfers are more likely to see those headlines & be affected by them.

It's the least that someone who has spread misinformation and disinformation about vaccines could do to redress their malign influence: be a cautionary tale for others of their persuasion.

Unfortunately, anti-vaxxers still profit when their own die: "They said vaccines would stop Covid but look at all those people dying from Covid! Vaccines don't work!" It doesn't matter that the unvaccinated are the main victims.

And we need death and hospitalisation stats which show breakdowns by age and vaccination status. For instance, breakthrough infections are hardly surprising amongst double-jabbed 80 year olds as they only have the immunity of an unvaccinated 50 year old. But hospitalisations after breakthrough infections amongst fit 20 year olds would be alarming. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on September 08, 2021, 04:40:10 pm

 For instance, breakthrough infections are hardly surprising amongst double-jabbed 80 year olds as they only have the immunity of an unvaccinated 50 year old.

Wow!  I did not know that.  Let's hope a few stiff whiskys will kick my immune system along.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 08, 2021, 04:59:42 pm
Wow!  I did not know that.  Let's hope a few stiff whiskys will kick my immune system along.

I can highly recommend the Sottish remedy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 08, 2021, 05:03:53 pm
It was asserted by an expert quoted in an article regarding breakthrough infections published in the SMH 3months back. Who knows whether the intervening period has changed the modelling. The thrust is that the risks are heavily age-dependent. IIRC, the suggestion was that the risk doubles for every 7 years' increase in age.   
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 08, 2021, 05:08:15 pm
Here's what I posted about it before:
Interesting article in the SMH: The truth about what vaccines are achieving, from a country getting it right (https://amp.smh.com.au/world/europe/the-truth-about-what-vaccines-are-achieving-from-a-country-getting-it-right-20210628-p5852n.html?__twitter_impression=true)
The opening 2 paragraphs and the last paragraph are:
Quote
By now you’ve probably heard Scott Morrison’s argument, which goes something like this: Australia can’t yet talk about a post-pandemic future because we still don’t know whether vaccines guarantee a return to normality.

To illustrate the point, the Prime Minister regularly notes COVID-19 cases are climbing in Britain even though 85 per cent of all adults have been given one dose of a vaccine and 62 per cent the full two.

...

The Prime Minister is entitled to defend his strategy. But he also has an obligation to not cherry pick the facts about a vaccination program far more successful than his own.
It makes these points:
  • Infections were always going to increase as the UK came out of lockdown.
  • While infections are up, deaths are much lower than previously for comparable cases.
  • Of the 92,000 people infected with the Delta variant since Feb, only 7.8% involve those who were double vaccinated.
  • Nobody in England aged under 50 and double jabbed has died from the Delta variant this year.
  • It’s believed the vaccines have prevented about 7 million from being infected.
The fact that the double vaccinated are still being infected and some are dying is due to the vulnerability of older people:
David Spiegelhalter, the chair of the Winton Centre for Risk and Evidence Communication at Cambridge, and Anthony Masters, a statistical ambassador for the Royal Statistical Society, have a simple explanation for why so many fully vaccinated people died: the vaccines are not perfect and older people will always be at most risk.
Quote
“The risk of dying from COVID-19 is extraordinarily dependent on age: it halves for each six to seven year age gap,” they wrote in The Guardian. “This means that someone aged 80 who is fully vaccinated essentially takes on the risk of an unvaccinated person of around 50 – much lower, but still [it’s] not nothing, and so we can expect some deaths.”
This highlights the need to vaccinate the workers at aged care centres as well as the residents.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 08, 2021, 05:18:37 pm
Intriguing that SloMo's tune has changed a lot since that article was published. Now 70% vaccination is fine & dandy. I guess we shouldn't be surprised at a politician changing tune so spectacularly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 08, 2021, 05:36:02 pm
70%.... is 70% of the adult population only...as Israel are now finding out you need to be doing older children as well and I think I read there are trials on for 5 year old and above kids as well. I'm not a real fan of jabbing young kids with untested vaccines and I think its going to be a heavily debated issue. My kids are all adults so I'm glad I dont have to make that decision...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on September 08, 2021, 06:58:03 pm
I wonder if we will see it here before the end of the year.

NOVAVAX: A “Traditional” VACCINE for COVID-19 soon to be released?
https://youtu.be/DcZIcRCKgss
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on September 08, 2021, 07:34:23 pm
https://theconversation.com/why-are-we-seeing-more-covid-cases-in-fully-vaccinated-people-an-expert-explains-166741
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 09, 2021, 09:22:49 am
On a day when Victoria has recorded over 300 new cases, there’s some good news from the front.

Quote
Appearing on the ABC’s 7.30 last night, Professor Sarah Gilbert said that while “there may be a first booster program … I wouldn’t expect it to happen every single year”.
“We’re going to develop long-term immunity to this virus. I think that the most vulnerable, the oldest members of society, those who are immunocompromised are going to need regular boosters,” she added.
“But for younger people, we normally see good maintenance of immune responses.”
While the Pfizer vaccine offers slightly higher protection following a second dose compared to AstraZeneca, studies have found its protection fades faster.

There’s also the suggestion that breakthrough infections may confer superimmunity, not just against the variant that caused the breakthrough infection but against all Covid variants.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 09, 2021, 09:37:15 am
But you're back slapping people here saying suicide is not up based on numbers from before our current lockdown? Are you that politically bias or that stupid?

Not backslapping, and political ideology has nothing to do with it. One suicide, anywhere, any time, is one too many. You won't find any insensitivity to any human trauma or suffering from this little black duck. Take it easy, MBB old son. We're all in this together. If you query my motives, just ask me to explain rather than engaging negative accusations. Always happy to oblige.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 09, 2021, 10:04:51 am
Better Data on Ivermectin Is Finally on Its Way (https://www.wired.com/story/better-data-on-ivermectin-is-finally-on-its-way/), Wired.

Quote
EDWARD MILLS CAME to the meeting last month with very good data. A clinical trials expert at McMaster University, Mills was presenting new results from a trial that is looking at how well half a dozen different drugs treat Covid-19—not for the people so sick they’re in the emergency room or the hospital, but in people whose symptoms haven’t gotten that bad yet. People sick at home, in other words.

At his online talk, put on by the National Institutes of Health, Mills’ slides told the tale: A relatively safe, familiar, cheap drug reduced the relative risk of mild Covid getting worse by nearly 30 percent. The drug is fluvoxamine, a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor—an antidepressant. (It’s also an anti-inflammatory, and inflammation and an overreacting immune system are hallmarks of serious Covid infection, so that might be why it seems to help).

But Ivermectin finished in a statistical dead heat with placebos! So unimpressive was its performance that it's been dumped from the trial :))

Quote
But political activists didn’t turn metformin into a rhetorical tool; ivermectin has stans so aggressive they make Gamergaters seem chill. Mills says he and his colleagues have been abused and threatened by ivermectin adherents; the trial designers even went through the rigorous process of changing the dosage administered to comport better to the fans’ preferred regimen of three days instead of just one. “We tested, what, seven other drugs? Nobody abuses us about the other drugs. We even showed one of them worked,” Mills tells me. His team touted positive results for fluvoxamine, “and that crowd doesn’t seem to care. If you ask them, ‘Why do you feel so strongly about ivermectin?’ they will say, ‘Because we feel there should be a cheap, effective drug that can be used by poor people.’ OK, well, we have that. We have it with fluvoxamine, and with inhaled budesonide. Why do they not care about those drugs? They don’t have an answer. They just want to talk about ivermectin.

It's pretty obvious this fixation with Ivermectin is only a figleaf for anti-vaxxers. They get to push an alternative to vaccines as they know they can't just tell people not to take a life-saving vaccine. They get to argue they're not anti-science at all (even though they're unwilling to acknowledge what the scientists say). And it becomes a political rallying point.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 09, 2021, 10:45:25 am
I wonder if we will see it here before the end of the year.

NOVAVAX: A “Traditional” VACCINE for COVID-19 soon to be released?
https://youtu.be/DcZIcRCKgss
Novavax is having trouble with funding , production and sourcing of materials. There is another rumour I read that the Government
might have pulled its part of the funding and some are suggesting Pfizer execs might have leaned on the Govt to delay Novavax entering the market.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 09, 2021, 11:51:15 am
NSW heading to the pub by the end of October, ..................... to toast the dead or dying! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 09, 2021, 11:54:44 am
Novavax is having trouble with funding , production and sourcing of materials. There is another rumour I read that the Government
might have pulled its part of the funding and some are suggesting Pfizer execs might have leaned on the Govt to delay Novavax entering the market.
There is very little technical reason to push for Novavax if you already have AZ available, the technologies are so similar they could be considered almost identical with the choice of vector making very little difference. The general feedback from regions already using both AZ and Novavax is that the efficacy and side-effect profiles are effectively identical.

Novavax is to AZ, what Moderna is to Pfizer.

Really, the whole Novavax / AZ / Pfizer / Moderna debate is another case of social media spreading "Certain Uncertainty", the Interwebs version of asking someone who has finally made a decision, "ARE YOU SURE?"

FWIW, you can throw a whole bunch of other competing vaccines into this debate, the global differences are so minimal.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on September 09, 2021, 12:29:59 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/national/double-masking-is-our-secret-weapon-against-delta-20210830-p58nbu.html

Double masking is the new black.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 09, 2021, 12:40:14 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/national/double-masking-is-our-secret-weapon-against-delta-20210830-p58nbu.html

Double masking is the new black.
I'm not a big fan of this bloke, he's an IT researcher but he never states that in his articles, he lets people think he is some sort of health or virology expert.

Now he's alluding that masks were his idea, despite millions in SE Asia wearing them for most of the past 15 years!

When he published his first articles, he made a big deal about cloth masks you make at home, this was on the basis that coronavirus spreads purely by droplets, which turns out to be gravely wrong. While reducing or eliminating droplet transmission helps, it doesn't make you "safe"!

I wonder if he has published anything on a site like The Conversation, if so it would be interesting to read the feedback! ;)

Quote
I led a scientific team that in April 2020 wrote the first and largest evidence review of masks effectiveness against the spread of COVID-19. I published an op-ed in The Washington Post and formed the #Masks4All movement that kick-started mask wearing in the US and globally. High-quality masks were not available then. So, we focused on studying cloth masks, which people could make themselves.
This sort of stuff is like claiming, I've read all the literature from many other hard workers, and I've given them a tick of approval so you can trust me, they get my gold star!

The second last sentence is pure rubbish, high quality disposable masks that perform far better than home made cloth have been a staple of the medical industry for about 30 years! The problem was when COVID hit there were groups and countries that resorted to stockpiling them!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 09, 2021, 12:40:30 pm
There is very little technical reason to push for Novavax if you already have AZ available, the technologies are so similar they could be considered almost identical with the choice of vector making very little difference. The general feedback from regions already using both AZ and Novavax is that the efficacy and side-effect profiles are effectively identical.

Novavax is to AZ, what Moderna is to Pfizer.

Really, the whole Novavax / AZ / Pfizer / Moderna debate is another case of social media spreading "Certain Uncertainty", the Interwebs version of asking someone who has finally made a decision, "ARE YOU SURE?"

FWIW, you can throw a whole bunch of other competing vaccines into this debate, the global differences are so minimal.

Absolutely.

As has been said... the best vaccine is the one that is readily available.

By the way, I had my 2nd AZ shot almost 2 weeks ago. No problemmo - sore injection site for about 3 days. Though when the microchip passed through the syringe into my arm it was a little painful.  ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 09, 2021, 12:47:13 pm
By the way, I had my 2nd AZ shot almost 2 weeks ago. No problemmo - sore injection site for about 3 days. Though when the microchip passed through the syringe into my arm it was a little painful.  ;D
Just make sure you get the shirt off and into plenty of natural sun, it's a new generation technology chip based on green energy so it is solar powered!

If you do not want to be tracked, stay inside in the deep dark dank dungeon for as long as possible, ........... or cut your arm off! Of course the chip is very very small, so it can migrate around the body, so you'll need to keep that in mind when deciding where that sun should be shining, or what to cut off!

On a serious note, the duress caused by all the published social media uncertainty is far far deadlier than any of the vaccines!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 09, 2021, 12:49:00 pm
Just make sure you get the shirt off and into plenty of natural sun, it's a new generation technology chip based on green energy so it is solar powered!

Of course if you do not want to be tracked, stay inside in the deep dark dank dungeon for as long as possible, ........... or cut your arm off!
Don't forget to live in a faraday cage.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 09, 2021, 12:53:01 pm
Don't forget to live in a faraday cage.
I've upgraded my tinfoil to copper! ;)

I hear The Donald uses NASA surplus gold!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 09, 2021, 01:05:16 pm
I've upgraded my tinfoil to copper! ;)

I hear The Donald uses NASA surplus gold!
I knew there was something different about you....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 09, 2021, 02:11:14 pm
Majority Of Men Who Took Ivermectin In Study Ended Up Becoming Sterile (https://www.ladbible.com/news/latest-majority-of-men-who-took-ivermectin-in-study-ended-up-becoming-sterile-20210909), LadBible.

I’ve changed my mind. We should encourage right-wing nutters to take Ivermectin, for the good of society. :))
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 09, 2021, 02:31:27 pm
But Ivermectin finished in a statistical dead heat with placebos! So unimpressive was its performance that it's been dumped from the trial :))
Even worse, the dose tested was very high, 400mg per kilogram, that is 2x to 3x the usual dose of that drug and repeated daily for three days, a very short interval. The usual dose is 150mg per kilogram repeated at a 30 day interval, so really the 400mg daily over a 72hr period is almost 10x the normal dose, and statistically it still did feck all versus Sars-CoV-2!

But the idea it did nothing isn't quite right.

At that dose some portion of the test group are possibly going to have serious side-effects from Ivermectin. The study of course is investigating Ivermectin vs Sars-CoV-2, not Ivermectin vs Personal Health.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 09, 2021, 02:55:13 pm
Which is why I posted about the alleged link to sterility.

Forced sterilisation of mental incompetents has a very sordid history: the Nazis weren't the only ones to go down that path in the name of Eugenics. But the incredible thing here is that it's a voluntary program! Right-wingers are encouraging other right-wingers to sterilise themselves while non-right-wingers are trying to warn them not to go down that path. It's breathtakingly beautiful :))  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 09, 2021, 02:58:44 pm
Which is why I posted about the alleged link to sterility.

Forced sterilisation of mental incompetents has a very sordid history: the Nazis weren't the only ones to go down that path in the name of Eugenics. But the incredible thing here is that it's a voluntary program! Right-wingers are encouraging other right-wingers to sterilise themselves while non-right-wingers are trying to warn them not to go down that path. It's breathtakingly beautiful :))  
When this is made into a doco, this would be the background music...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNBL5OMeuno
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 09, 2021, 03:03:21 pm
Just make sure you get the shirt off and into plenty of natural sun, it's a new generation technology chip based on green energy so it is solar powered!

If you do not want to be tracked, stay inside in the deep dark dank dungeon for as long as possible, ........... or cut your arm off! Of course the chip is very very small, so it can migrate around the body, so you'll need to keep that in mind when deciding where that sun should be shining, or what to cut off!

On a serious note, the duress caused by all the published social media uncertainty is far far deadlier than any of the vaccines!

 :))  :))  :)) ... hang on, I've got a strange persistent urge to scratch my clacker! Wait... hang on... it's sunburn! Well that should power it for a few more days!!  ;D

Ps Mrs Baggers and I are now wearing full length copper plated condoms. Oh no... hang on... airholes, we forgot to make ai...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 09, 2021, 03:03:37 pm
We've finally found a way to persuade gun-obsessed Americans to shoot blanks rather than lethal rounds ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 09, 2021, 03:12:48 pm
The next Darwin Awards are going to make great reading!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 09, 2021, 07:40:07 pm
Which is why I posted about the alleged link to sterility.

Forced sterilisation of mental incompetents has a very sordid history: the Nazis weren't the only ones to go down that path in the name of Eugenics. But the incredible thing here is that it's a voluntary program! Right-wingers are encouraging other right-wingers to sterilise themselves while non-right-wingers are trying to warn them not to go down that path. It's breathtakingly beautiful :))  
Collingwood and Port Adelaide wouldnt have any supporters based on Forced sterilization of mental incompetents...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 09, 2021, 07:54:42 pm
Collingwood and Port Adelaide wouldnt have any supporters based on Forced sterilization of mental incompetents...

ADL ain't that far behind
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 09, 2021, 08:11:54 pm
ADL ain't that far behind
Don't sell the tiger army short.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 09, 2021, 08:49:36 pm
Don't sell the tiger army short.

I didn't.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on September 09, 2021, 10:42:25 pm
Collingwood and Port Adelaide wouldnt have any supporters based on Forced sterilization of mental incompetents...

And after today’s social media effort by cfc/Carlton media they won’t be breeding either…
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 10, 2021, 09:54:13 am
Interesting to see the US mandating vaccination for Federal employees, because a blanket approach is clearly untenable given there will be some small percentage of employees with very legitimate physical reasons for not being vaccinated. For example, some people have a demonstrable allergy to the components of many vaccines.  It feels like it is an invitation for legal anarchy!

But then some will argue, it's no difference to failing the medical to join the military or to get a pilot's license or diving permit. Or vaccinating the military before a tour of duty.

After 9/11 a lot of the licensing stuff was technically much harder to qualify, more rigorous, which is somewhat ironic given the so very weak approach to US gun law reform, I concede they have some new rules forcing delays to obtaining a weapon.

I wonder what will come of that mandate?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 10, 2021, 10:11:35 am
Maybe the unvaccinated should be required to wear flowing white robes and to ring a bell?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 10, 2021, 11:31:40 am
Lovely ... Berejiklian ends all daily briefings from Monday.  Now to watch the fallout from that.  It's what you're paid for woman ... front up stupid and do your bloody job. 



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 10, 2021, 11:59:09 am
Lovely ... Berejiklian ends all daily briefings from Monday.  Now to watch the fallout from that.  It's what you're paid for woman ... front up stupid and do your bloody job. 




Agree...trying to run away from responsibility is never the sign of a good leader. Had to laugh at Kerry Chant too who had a brain lapse when she was mentioning a new world order, its like NSW will be emerging from an apocalypse when its over and be a separate country governed by a totalitarian  government where the citizens are slaves to the state.
Reckon Gladys and Kerry might have got ahead of themselves and are forgetting they are elected by the people and have a responsibility to serve the people...not the other way around.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 10, 2021, 12:11:53 pm
Biden faces a problem in the US we don't really face here. Trump voters & most of the GOP have joined forces with anti-vaxxers to make the vaccine a political issue (as has happened with masks as well). Certainly, the Labor & Liberal Parties are pushing vaccination, so much so that Slomo & Gladys are looking at it as the way out of the current imbroglio.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 10, 2021, 12:36:02 pm
Had to laugh at Kerry Chant too who had a brain lapse when she was mentioning a new world order.

Nicola Spurrier (SA), Chant and Jeanette Young (QLD) are all, quite simply, deranged.  Totally incapable nobodies, and the public know it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 10, 2021, 12:42:24 pm
Biden faces a problem in the US we don't really face here. Trump voters & most of the GOP have joined forces with anti-vaxxers to make the vaccine a political issue (as has happened with masks as well). Certainly, the Labor & Liberal Parties are pushing vaccination, so much so that Slomo & Gladys are looking at it as the way out of the current imbroglio.

Trump told all his fans to get vaccinated, they booed him lol.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 10, 2021, 01:17:46 pm
I saw an interview with George Conway (the husband of Kellyanne Conway & committed anti-Trumper) well before that rally. He was asked why Trump didn't lean into the vaccine and promote it as the "Trump Vaccine". Conway noted that people think that Trump can get his fans to follow his every word but Conway suggested Trump had been successful by telling them what they wanted to hear. And they didn't want to hear about vaccines or masks, so he wasn't going to risk his supposed political clout by telling them to do something that they'd reject out of hand. And then Trump proved Conway both right and wrong by trying to go there. But he did back off much quicker than Guy Sebastian.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 10, 2021, 01:52:42 pm
Maybe the unvaccinated should be required to wear flowing white robes and to ring a bell?

 :))  :))

...and push carts up and down the street. Cue... Monty Python.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 10, 2021, 07:02:10 pm
Bang! The TGA has banned GPs in Australia from prescribing Ivermectin as a Covid treatment.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 10, 2021, 08:30:30 pm
Bang! The TGA has banned GPs in Australia from prescribing Ivermectin as a Covid treatment.

That'll make headlines in the US... then the orange person worshippers will scream communism!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on September 11, 2021, 05:50:28 am
What was pushed in Wilcannia regarding ivermectin was reprehensible.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 11, 2021, 09:57:29 am
The FOI gift that keeps on giving.

The same biodistribution studies released from Japan showing LNP accumulation in the ovaries of rats were actually released by the TGA in a FOI document here

https://tga.gov.au/sites/default/files/foi-2389-06.pdf

Why weren't women told?

Note the spleen and liver too.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 11, 2021, 10:00:40 am
Short sharp 7 day lockdown is the way to contain this strain our premier said. He also said we don’t want to be like NSW.

6 weeks later still in lockdown and up to 450 cases.  Give us a few more weeks and watch us surpass NSW

How can anyone ever doubt ‘I can’t recall’ Dan.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 11, 2021, 10:09:30 am
What was pushed in Wilcannia regarding ivermectin was reprehensible.

I wasn’t aware of that. Agreed, absolutely despicable.

Indigenous Australians in Covid-hit Wilcannia targeted by ivermectin spruiker (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/09/indigenous-australians-in-covid-hit-wilcannia-targeted-by-ivermectin-spruiker), The Guardian.

It was particularly sleazy that they intended to direct market Ivermectin to residents after community leaders and medical practitioners gave them a firm no.

I’d like to think this low act was what forced the TGA to act, but in the main it seems it was to stop runs on Ivermectin which is needed by sufferers of scabies, Ross River Fever and the like.

I wonder why there aren’t tighter controls over the Telehealth system. Surely it wouldn’t take much to figure out that a conspiracy theorist with a stethoscope had become the go-to guy for stuff like Ivermectin. And the health practitioners’ regulators should intervene much more.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 11, 2021, 11:32:47 am
There are concerns over the NSW policy which sees Covid patients remain at home with daily Telehealth checkups. That’s great for the Govt as it reduces the demand for beds in hospitals. But there have been deaths where patients did okay for a couple of weeks but then had precipitous crashes. I hope Victoria doesn’t go down that path.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 11, 2021, 11:50:35 am
There are concerns over the NSW policy which sees Covid patients remain at home with daily Telehealth checkups. That’s great for the Govt as it reduces the demand for beds in hospitals. But there have been deaths where patients did okay for a couple of weeks but then had precipitous crashes. I hope Victoria doesn’t go down that path.
It will if the sick live in the West and rely on one Public Hospital to service a massive area.....Sunshine Hospital equates to Liverpool Hospital, under staffed, under resourced and bearing the brunt of CoVid cases in the western suburbs of both Melbourne and Sydney. Nurses have been told to shut up as well about under staffing/poor conditions, cant comment on covid cases or they risk losing their jobs. Telehealth is no substitute for a proper consultation and physical examination, we are living in a modern Western country not the Amazon jungle..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 11, 2021, 12:09:50 pm
No need for racist comments ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 11, 2021, 12:13:40 pm
No need for racist comments ...

It is not racist and I stand by them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 11, 2021, 12:20:11 pm
Replace 1 word with “Chinese” and there won’t be an issue.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 11, 2021, 01:26:30 pm
It is not racist and I stand by them.

Now CC good buddy about the last thing you need from me is a lecture. But, you're better than that, Knackers. Those kinds of terms only worsen prejudice, racism and dangerous tensions. Like you, I bet you know plenty of Asian folks who are bloody rippers. In fact, most people are bloody rippers. It's the Chinese Communist Party that deserves our deep suspicion.  ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 11, 2021, 02:53:54 pm
@Baggers ... I was referring to the CCC, not the general populace.  They're hardly responsible for unleashing a virus that has killed 4.6 million.  And yes, I know quite a few Asians and by and large, they're good people.  Do I trust China in any way?  Never.  They're liars and snarling hypocrites hell bent on exerting their authority over countries.  Just look at their treatment of us (tariffs), the mockery they make of being a developing country (they've landed probes on Mars FFS) and escape doing SFA about their own emissions.

I know you weren't lecturing me mate ... but I'll be stuffed if I'll be lectured by them



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on September 11, 2021, 02:55:19 pm
Now CC good buddy about the last thing you need from me is a lecture. But, you're better than that, Knackers. Those kinds of terms only worsen prejudice, racism and dangerous tensions. Like you, I bet you know plenty of Asian folks who are bloody rippers. In fact, most people are bloody rippers. It's the Chinese Communist Party that deserves our deep suspicion.  ;)

What the hell is everyone talking about? What was racist?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 11, 2021, 03:11:13 pm
What the hell is everyone talking about? What was racist?
Ch*nks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 11, 2021, 03:13:41 pm
@Baggers ... I was referring to the CCC, not the general populace.  They're hardly responsible for unleashing a virus that has killed 4.6 million.  And yes, I know quite a few Asians and by and large, they're good people.  Do I trust China in any way?  Never.  They're liars and snarling hypocrites hell bent on exerting their authority over countries.  Just look at their treatment of us (tariffs), the mockery they make of being a developing country (they've landed probes on Mars FFS) and escape doing SFA about their own emissions.

I know you weren't lecturing me mate ... but I'll be stuffed if I'll be lectured by them





Neither will I be lectured by the CCC. Appalling, corrupt scoundrels who don't hesitate facilitating the 'vanishing' of outspoken citizens. Not far off being a 'terrorist' regime (the CCC). Many of us, like you, are infuriated by their abuses of power.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 11, 2021, 03:17:17 pm
The FOI gift that keeps on giving.

The same biodistribution studies released from Japan showing LNP accumulation in the ovaries of rats were actually released by the TGA in a FOI document here
Nothing to see here, Flyboy77 is peddling certain uncertainty, the report conclusions are the exact opposite of the fears Flyboy77 wants to promote.

The report notes LNP(Lipid Nano-Particles, the particles which encapsulate the mRNA vaccine) also form in the body naturally as a response to inflammation, and the detected LNP levels are not outside the normal range expected for an inflammatory response.

Further no detrimental effect is expected from the LNP levels found in the study, the conclusions are that this response should be noted and monitored which is the perfect reasonable and the sensible option. It does not mean there is something to fear.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 11, 2021, 04:18:13 pm
Nothing to see here, Flyboy77 is peddling certain uncertainty, the report conclusions are the exact opposite of the fears Flyboy77 wants to promote.

The report notes LNP(Lipid Nano-Particles, the particles which encapsulate the mRNA vaccine) also form in the body naturally as a response to inflammation, and the detected LNP levels are not outside the normal range expected for an inflammatory response.

Further no detrimental effect is expected from the LNP levels found in the study, the conclusions are that this response should be noted and monitored which is the perfect reasonable and the sensible option. It does not mean there is something to fear.

The report also omits any longer term data - 9 day is the norm, at least....

Odd that.

Conclusions can't be drawn on a lack of - or no - data.

But thanks LP. For trying to wash away the unwashable.

https://ajkay.substack.com/p/childhood-interrupted
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 11, 2021, 04:27:53 pm
The FOI gift that keeps on giving.

The same biodistribution studies released from Japan showing LNP accumulation in the ovaries of rats were actually released by the TGA in a FOI document here

https://tga.gov.au/sites/default/files/foi-2389-06.pdf

Why weren't women told?

Note the spleen and liver too.


You should see what happens to lab rats and mice when fed a typical western diet of processed foods, high sugar and high carbs (not complex carbs). Those figures you have go through the roof... especially bad for liver, kidneys, heart, brain, pancreas, immune system... and so on. Doesn't take long for the rats and mice to be obese, diabetic with developing cardiac issues!!

If you're going to be passionate about something, be passionate about the food (or excuse for food) we shove in our cakeholes. No grey areas, universal agreement (scientifically) and the proof is walking our streets, shopping centres and hospital corridors - walking their IVs out into the car park for a coupla durries. And too many families teach their kids to consume cr@p, breeding more unhealthy, overweight, sick humans. And that's without factoring in that toxic substance we guzzle - alcohol. https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohols-effects-health/alcohols-effects-body

No vaccine yet has anywhere near the toxic effects on the human body than that of a bad diet - especially alcohol, processed foods and white poison (sugar). Then there's smoking... you get the drift.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on September 12, 2021, 08:43:23 pm
Think we have problems?

Israel records over 10,000 Covid cases in 24 hours
https://youtu.be/vZHCWu1t0aQ
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 12, 2021, 09:09:16 pm
It's not necessarily bad for the vaccinated. In the case of the fully vaccinated, it seems that what doesn't kill you does make you stronger. A breakthrough infection produces a big kick to the immune system. But the key to this is "what doesn't kill you". It wouldn't be great if you ended up dying, so doctors aren't keen on the idea of the fully vaccinated hosting "pox parties" with a view to boosting their immunity. but if it happens in the ordinary course of events, it's like winning Tatts.

It seems unvaccinated people who survive Covid infections often don't have the same level of immunity as the fully vaccinated and the immunity doesn't last as long. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 13, 2021, 11:49:18 am
Think we have problems?

Israel records over 10,000 Covid cases in 24 hours
Interesting about some new research coming through, conducted by the UK Health in relation to global trends. They should be publishing a report soon that will show short interval mRNA (Pfizer / Moderna) vaccination is the delivering the weakest long term transmission prevention profile. I heard an audio summary of the report predicted that Israel would apparently be the worst case, because Israel vaccinated predominantly with Pfizer on a very short interval between the 1st and 2nd doses, just 21 days (3 weeks).

For this reason the finding is that Israel and other countries using short vaccination intervals will be forced to issue booster shots, and ironically those booster shots should actually be a cross vaccination instead of more mRNA.

Think about that when our Federal authorities dropped the interval from 12 to 6 weeks, it's basically putting a regime in place that will require a 3rd dose. No wonder they want more people taking AZ, because a 3rd dose of Pfizer means the cost of Pfizer goes up 50%!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 14, 2021, 09:44:50 am
According to 7News.com.au:
Quote
Doctors say anti-vaxxers are visiting GPs and demanding a medical exemption in a desperate attempt to avoid getting the COVID-19 vaccine.
It comes after state leaders flagged that only those who are double jabbed or have a medical certificate will get to enjoy “freedoms” such as visiting the pub and going to the gym.
Watch the video above for more on this story
President of the Royal Australian College of General Practitioners Doctor Karen Price told Sunrise the issue is becoming “a big problem” across Australia.
“I hear it all over from our members about people coming in demanding certificates for an exemption for vaccination and it’s causing real pressure,” she said.
Dr Price explained that there are only a very small number of genuine reasons why a doctor can supply a jab exemption.
However, as there are multiple different jabs approved for use in Australia - including AstraZeneca, Pfizer and Moderna - it’s highly unlikely a patient would be unable to take every single one of them.
“The guidelines are pretty clear, there are very, very few medical exemptions for vaccinations and if you can’t have one vaccine, you can have another.”
...
Dr Price said she is encouraging vaccine hesitant Australians wo want to enjoy the freedoms to “come in and talk about what their fears and concerns are” rather than asking their GP for an exemption.
“If they’re asking for an exemption certificate and they don’t fit the criteria, then they’ve probably had a dose of misinformation.”
Let’s hope the demand for dodgy certificates allows the identification of Anti-vaxxer doctors and their deregistration and leads to a series of highly publicised prosecutions of Anti-Vaxxers for forgery.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 14, 2021, 10:45:45 am
There are ways around everything.  But this issue will tend to fuel much antagonism. And I'm not referring to the insane and irrational anti vaxxers.  Biden's learning this the hard way.                               
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 14, 2021, 11:09:17 am
Biden isn't learning this the hard way. He knows the GOP has already allied itself to the anti-vaxxers and the anti-maskers. He's learnt the lesson already that there's no point trying to humour them: just go bang. Let the GOP squeal all they like. The reality is that the majority want the vaccination drive to succeed and they blame the anti-vaxxers for standing in the way. Apart from in ruby-red States which are already controlled by the GOP, the anti-vax/anti-mask policies are likely to hurt the GOP when elections come.

The only way "this issue will tend to fuel much antagonism" is that vaccine refusal will result in the vaccine passport system being necessary. The anti-vaxxers know they need to try to undermine that system and that will lead to the certification process being strengthened to thwart their attempts. Showing proof will have some inconvenience attached to it, but the majority will appreciate being able to avoid mixing with the unvaccinated. God bless the unvaccinated anti-vaxxers: they're so generous they want to share everything they have with us. The majority will blame the anti-vaxxers for the inconveniences they face.   
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 14, 2021, 11:17:25 am
I suppose there is a fundamental problem in that society can propagate untruths free of liability, but I do wonder how long that will persist under the current political system because it seems to be self-destructive.

Currently, the only motive to pursue this is through potential financial claims against large commercials entities like FB or Youtube.

But sooner or later it seems inevitable that this social movement will bite it's own tail. The first test will be when the wealthy estate of a deceased individual chooses to sue a commercial entity, then perhaps those individuals who were unvaccinated as well.

I know some will argue that there is a burden of proof, but it's actually the anti-vax movement that is diminishing that burden of proof by it's very actions. They'll get what they are asking for, the right to make a judgement based on an unfounded and unsupported opinion. They seem oblivious that the the rules they crave can be turned back on them!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 14, 2021, 11:53:00 am
I think a major delusion is that anti-vaxxers will get away with thumbing their noses at the vaccination passport system in the way anti-maskers & anti-lockdown protesters have. Sure, a few of them copped fines, but they haven't really been dealt with as criminals unless they assaulted police or destroyed property. But anti-vaxxers who try to bring the system to its knees by forging exemptions or vaccination certificates will be crossing the Rubicon. That will draw prosecutions for such dishonesty offences as making and uttering false documents (forgery) or obtaining financial advantage or property by deception (theft). Convictions for those offences will cause them far more problems than a fine for not wearing a mask.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 14, 2021, 12:11:04 pm
The politics of Sars-CoV-2 is very interesting, if not a little bit disturbing.

In particular the horror stories coming out of regions that have used Sinopharm and Sinovac, the efficacy is so low the outcome borders on chance, it reminds me of that "street fogging" the Chinese did to scare the public into staying home.
Quote
Sinovac, how efficacious is the vaccine? A large phase 3 trial in Brazil showed that two doses, administered at an interval of 14 days, had an efficacy of 51% against symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection, 100% against severe COVID-19, and 100% against hospitalization starting 14 days after receiving the second dose
Countries like Malaysia and Indonesia would severely dispute these claims! Even the 14 day interval is highly dubious, it flies in the face of knowledge on how human bodies react to vaccines. Stuff just doesn't normally happen that quickly, never has and probably never will! Keep in mind both vaccines are "weakened whole virus" vaccines, that is the work at the same rate as the virus, not much much faster. So how can it be that they are administered in 14 day intervals when a Sars-CoV-2 infection might even be asymptomatic or undetectable after just 14 days? To get natural or vaccine immunity, you have to get infected, develop resistance/response and fight it off, then begin to recover before you'll even have a detectable presence of long term T-Killer cells.

It's perhaps another potential error along the same lines of Israel's 21 day vaccine cycle.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 14, 2021, 12:32:41 pm
As if anyone would trust a Chinese Vaccine.....I think even Kim Jong turned it down and preferred the Russian sputnik version complete with rocket fuel additive. Nth Korea of course have zero cases...... ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 14, 2021, 01:01:01 pm
As if anyone would trust a Chinese Vaccine.....I think even Kim Jong turned it down and preferred the Russian sputnik version complete with rocket fuel additive. Nth Korea of course have zero cases...... ;)
It's not really the vaccine efficacy that is the issue, it's the idea it works with two doses at a 14 day interval, that suggests the efficacy figures for the specific promoted 14 day regime are a tad rubbery.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 14, 2021, 01:20:11 pm
How about these ideas to counter the campaign to circumvent the vaccine passport system via exemptions:
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 14, 2021, 01:27:13 pm
Presenting a fake certificate works against the anti-vaxers own agenda, so we do not need excessive validation, they want to go without certificates not promote the use of fake certificates. Faked certificates just make the anti-vaxers appear to the general public like an even smaller minority than they already are!

I think there is already enough governance, after all anti-vax doctors are also a minority, and all the other doctors do not want to be put at risk.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 14, 2021, 01:41:43 pm
And yet anti-vaxxers have used dodgy exemptions to avoid MMR vaccination requirements since day dot. The issuing of exemptions should be closely regulated. Let’s face it, someone with a fair dinkum medical condition which makes vaccination problematic will have a pretty obvious medical history to rely upon; someone who has no history but seeks an exemption anyway should be put through their paces. That's also true of workcare and TAC claims: some cases will be obvious while others will be scrutinised much more carefully. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 14, 2021, 01:51:49 pm
And yet anti-vaxxers have used dodgy exemptions to avoid MMR vaccination requirements since day dot. The issuing of exemptions should be closely regulated. Let’s face it, someone with a fair dinkum medical condition which makes vaccination problematic will have a pretty obvious medical history to rely upon; someone who has no history but seeks an exemption anyway should be put through their paces. That's also true of workcare and TAC claims: some cases will be obvious while others will be scrutinised much more carefully.
But they are exposed by that behaviour, it is only a cheat when nothing happens.

It is interesting how Sars-CoV-2 is going to change things, the widespread adoption of rapid PCR is going to allow health investigators to more routinely locate patient zero in all cases of viral infection, not just during a pandemic. Then the question becomes an issue of legal liability, because the chain of infection will be known with each person in the transmission chain leaving a little imprint of themselves on the virus they shed which acts like a fingerprint.

Who gets it from Agnes?
.....
I got it from Agnes
She got it from Jim
We all agree it must have been
Louise who gave it to him
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 14, 2021, 02:46:06 pm
The notion there's no point imposing a vaccine system because there are ways around it flies in the face of other government programs. The most obvious comparison is to underage use of fake identity cards to gain entry to licensed premises. That has been going on since time immemorial. Rather than taking the view there's no point continuing that prohibition, governments across the world have refused to back down. on the other hand, one would hope that governments take a less punitive approach against kids: treating them as naughty boys and girls is a better way to go.

A similar observation can be made about the "War on Drugs". For over 50 years, the US Govt in particular has been fighting a losing battle against drug use. But no government has managed to make much of a dent in the drug trade. If you want drugs, you can get them. A harm minimisation model would make more sense, but the prohibition model still reigns supreme.

Then you have the black economy. The fact no government can kill off that way of avoiding the tax system doesn't mean it will be permitted any time soon.

You also have systems which are more analogous to the vaccine passport system. Where the vaccine passport system seeks to protect health and life (and encourage vaccination), rules that restrict access to compensation schemes and welfare programs seek to protect taxpayer dollars and encourage working. To me, protecting health is more important, but let's not get stuck on that issue. Rules are adjusted to make it harder to rort the system, often reaching the point of trying to humiliate and frustrate people out of staying within the system. I doubt those who are dismayed by a system being created which seeks to make life hard for those who try to rort the vaccination passport system would be so aggrieved by the strategies used to make life hard for the unemployed or injured workers.  It boils down to saying the good ol' boys and gals who are worried about their "freedom" are more sympathetic than the unemployed or injured workers. 
 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 14, 2021, 02:53:38 pm
Just listened to a nurse on the radio pleading with adolescents and other young adults to take Sars-CoV-2 seriously. It seems some of the wards are starting to fill with people who didn't need to be vaccinated because "COVID doesn't hurt young people!", maybe they won't die but that doesn't mean they won't be harmed!

Not sure where that nurse was situated, I missed the start of the interview.

Globally, I believe the long term COVID effects in youth are similar to the long term effects of Glandular Fever or Hepatitis in teenagers, which some significant portion of them suffering very long term health impacts, and even some who may be partially debilitated for life! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 14, 2021, 03:01:12 pm
The notion there's no point imposing a vaccine system because there are ways around it flies in the face of other government programs. The most obvious comparison is to underage use of fake identity cards to gain entry to licensed premises. That has been going on since time immemorial. Rather than taking the view there's no point continuing that prohibition, governments across the world have refused to back down. on the other hand, one would hope that governments take a less punitive approach against kids: treating them as naughty boys and girls is a better way to go.
I'm not arguing against a system, I'm arguing that the measures and penalties in place already for such misbehaviour are enough!

Usually, it's not the lack of a law but the lack of implementation that burns society, a bit like the rules in AFL, eh?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 14, 2021, 03:12:56 pm
And I say they’re not enough. Check out the article about the attempt to use Wilcannia as a pop-up Ivermectin trial. There was some Sydney doctor who was poised to write out Ivermectin prescriptions via the TeleHealth system to bypass the reisitance from the local doctors and community leaders. Doing nothing and allowing anti-vaxxers to make the vaccine passport system a joke will result in the general public seeing it as useless red tape. And that’s the goal of anti-vaxxers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 14, 2021, 03:39:21 pm
Boris has scrapped the vax passport idea in England, people will get fake passports, the dark web will provide software cracks etc etc for the govt apps. Plus business owners will want every patron they can get given they have suffered financial losses, it gets discussed everytime we are getting takeaway coffees etc from a couple of cafes we go to and they all said they would serve people without vax passports. As is half the folk entering cafes, supermarkets, petrol stations etc dont check in anyway...just dont know how you would police such a system and I cant see police wanting much involvement with it either.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 14, 2021, 03:47:20 pm
Trying to support your argument with “Even Boris won’t do it ...” doesn’t seem convincing. He’s just a Trump-style politician who’s more interested in selling miracle cures which relieves him of the responsibility of making hard decisions which might piss people off. He’s just the type to say he wants a vaccine passport system so he can then “reluctantly” torpedo the idea.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 14, 2021, 04:06:02 pm
I'm a bit confused about the UK situation, it's reported as vaccine Passports, but as I understand it they are basically canning travel visas of all types over the coming winter months whether you have a vaccine certificate or not!

But the media like to paint it as a win for those in the anti-vaccine passport stakes, I suspect it'll return when they have another crack at re-opening the borders. My UK associates tell me they have a huge problem now, the re-opened too soon, flooded the hospitals with B and C-Grade COVID cases and as a result people are dying from recoverable heart attacks and strokes while they wait for a bed!

It's all apparently being driven by those who won't get vaccinated, they are now 98% of cases, yet they are happy to occupy a hospital bed for apparently something they don't need a vaccine for!

I get the social media calls for a "tough crap" approach, but I doubt those who sacrifice themselves in the care of others would ever agree to it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 14, 2021, 04:06:24 pm
Trying to support your argument with “Even Boris won’t do it ...” doesn’t seem convincing. He’s just a Trump-style politician who’s more interested in selling miracle cures which relieves him of the responsibility of making hard decisions which might piss people off. He’s just the type to say he wants a vaccine passport system so he can then “reluctantly” torpedo the idea.
You have to make it work and that means throwing resources at it and expecting business owners to play along too....having a us vs them mentality wont work in business when people have done it hard and you want to throw more regulations at them.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 14, 2021, 04:14:33 pm
You have to make it work and that means throwing resources at it and expecting business owners to play along too....having a us vs them mentality wont work in business when people have done it hard and you want to throw more regulations at them.
Agree, I think there are much better ways to waste money than creating more rules and regulations that won't be implemented or enforced anyway, at least on the commercial side!

But I do make a point of difference about borders, and it looks like here in Oz we'll have eVax Certs attached to our ePassport before long. That is almost impossible to fake for anyone except a foreign government, personally I'm all for it, because I travel a lot or at least use to travel a lot and anything that makes getting through customs easier and faster is a win win! Airports are my purgatory, the plane is an oasis(I do tend to be at the pointy end), and home is heaven!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 14, 2021, 04:22:13 pm
How's that 43% rating trending Biden?  Be finished in the mid terms
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 14, 2021, 04:22:52 pm
Agree, I think there are much better ways to waste money than creating more rules and regulations that won't be implemented or enforced anyway, at least on the commercial side!

But I do make a point of difference about borders, and it looks like here in Oz we'll have eVax Certs attached to our ePassport before long. That is almost impossible to fake for anyone except a foreign government, personally I'm all for it, because I travel a lot or at least use to travel a lot and anything that makes getting through customs easier and faster is a win win! Airports are my purgatory, the plane is an oasis(I do tend to be at the pointy end), and home is heaven!
Agree I think for international travel with passports and anything to with airlines in general it can be introduced and policed properly but at local level cafes, pubs, sporting events, hotels/motels, tourism etc its going to be much harder and more open to fraud as well as lack of enforcement if it is going to cost small business money.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 14, 2021, 04:27:19 pm
Read these figures today, not sure if that relates to the nurse I heard earlier.
Quote
More than 500 of the state’s total active cases are children under nine, and 85 per cent of the 3799 active cases are people aged under 60.

Of Victoria’s active cases:

563 are under 9 years of age.
647 are aged 10 to 19.
906 are in their 20s.
603 are in their 30s.
Youth don't get it!

There is no need for a tautology to explain that phrase. :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 14, 2021, 04:29:10 pm
That assumes the unvaccinated are monolithic in their refusal to vaccinate. In reality, many will respond to vaccination passports by getting vaccinated.

This is obvious from the article I originally quoted. The desperate search for compliant GPs doesn’t suggest to me that we’re dealing with an army of dark-web activists. No doubt there will still be a rump of hold-outs, but they can be pursued as criminals.

I’m sure when a few businesses get closed down, the message will get around. The law isn’t just something the right-wingers get to use against left-wingers, after all. The law’s the law.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 14, 2021, 04:36:12 pm
I’m sure when a few businesses get closed down, the message will get around.
It's a perspective problem, there will be some businesses that profit from it as well and for many that lure is no different than a Tattersalls jackpot or The Daily Quaddie!

Gambling addiction is real, and it doesn't just apply to betting it applies to any risk, and the different risks taken are just other manifestations of the same fundamental behaviour!

It's why when you debate this issue on here with certain individuals you get the feeling they suffer from punters lament!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 14, 2021, 04:45:31 pm
By the way, how often in the last few years have you been in a pub or restaurant when someone has been happily puffing away on a cigarette inside? The rarity of such incidents isn’t just due to mindless enforcement of the law. Fact is non-smokers had no great desire to be breathing in a cloud of smoke just to humour a few people who felt they had the right to inflict their habit on others. Owners of restaurants realised they’d lose business if they didn’t enforce the law.

If there is a vaccine passport and it’s obvious the owners of a restaurant blow off that scheme, rest assured they’ll lose customers who don’t want to be seated in a room with the unvaccinated. There was a restaurant around where I live which closed down when they opened up for anti-lockdown protesters in defiance of restrictions. Though there were people who supported the actions of the owners, there were many who made it clear that they would never return to the restaurant. The owners bowed to the inevitable and announced they were closing for good.

Don’t underestimate how much businesses have to lose if the vaccinated believe their safety isn’t of great concern to the owners.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 14, 2021, 10:37:32 pm
By the way, how often in the last few years have you been in a pub or restaurant when someone has been happily puffing away on a cigarette inside? The rarity of such incidents isn’t just due to mindless enforcement of the law. Fact is non-smokers had no great desire to be breathing in a cloud of smoke just to humour a few people who felt they had the right to inflict their habit on others. Owners of restaurants realised they’d lose business if they didn’t enforce the law.

If there is a vaccine passport and it’s obvious the owners of a restaurant blow off that scheme, rest assured they’ll lose customers who don’t want to be seated in a room with the unvaccinated. There was a restaurant around where I live which closed down when they opened up for anti-lockdown protesters in defiance of restrictions. Though there were people who supported the actions of the owners, there were many who made it clear that they would never return to the restaurant. The owners bowed to the inevitable and announced they were closing for good.

Don’t underestimate how much businesses have to lose if the vaccinated believe their safety isn’t of great concern to the owners.

As usual you have it ass about.

The tide is turning.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 14, 2021, 10:38:43 pm
Read these figures today, not sure if that relates to the nurse I heard earlier.Youth don't get it!

There is no need for a tautology to explain that phrase. :o


Staggers me that a seriously bright chap like you focuses on 'case' numbers...

Perhaps I got it wrong....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 14, 2021, 10:51:03 pm
As usual you have it ass about.

The tide is turning.
Great news that the vaccination rates are up. We can all celebrate.  8)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 15, 2021, 09:25:29 am
Staggers me that a seriously bright chap like you focuses on 'case' numbers...

Perhaps I got it wrong....
Yes, well ignoring the usual "Ad Hominem, go the man" approach.

The counts might not be relevant, but the changing age profile / distribution certainly is! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 15, 2021, 01:22:02 pm
Typically our road map out always had a degree of cloudiness about it. Whilst many believe the key to getting freedoms back lies in vaccination levels ‘I can’t recall’ Dan threw in a new term today which is typical in his handling of this.

He added in lockdowns will not only be determined by vaccination rates but also but hospital admissions. Of course he would never lock himself into disclosing a figure we can’t exceed or some type of clear number. He is too smart for that transparency.  It makes sense too but he never said that when he was dangling the carrot of freedom to those who took the vaccination did he. Of course he didn’t.

Knew this was coming and that he would find a way to continue locking up the state (but also keep construction going of course!) he just needed to introduce something to give him an out and he has it now and who can argue with it.

‘I can’t recall’ Dan is a the absolute master of having a way to change the goal posts without changing the goal posts.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 15, 2021, 01:29:51 pm
Goal posts don’t exist. Pandemics don’t equal footy games.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 15, 2021, 01:57:18 pm
Goal posts don’t exist. Pandemics don’t equal footy games.

Oh is that the reason.  I also hear this pandemic has a wide range of symptoms even to those who didn’t contract it.

Amnesia being a common one.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 15, 2021, 02:14:00 pm
‘I can’t recall’ Dan is a the absolute master of having a way to change the goal posts without changing the goal posts.

He is a deceitful lying bast@rd.  They're the "nice" things I can say about him.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 15, 2021, 02:23:08 pm
Construction is only operating at 25% of what they say they need which is of course 4 times the usual number.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 15, 2021, 02:24:49 pm
He is a deceitful lying bast@rd.  They're the "nice" things I can say about him.

He's a great politician.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 15, 2021, 02:40:16 pm
Construction is only operating at 25% of what they say they need which is of course 4 times the usual number.

Exactly. Its so predicable how this government excludes construction from the restrictions yet retail sectors that most would trust more to follow strict rules about density and social distancing  masks etc have been closed for majority of this pandemic leaving the majority of them now beyond repair and unlikely to reopen.

Same goes for hospitality. That industry is almost  never going to return. Well definitely won’t in our lifetime.

Heard the City and Lygon st are 2 areas where 70% of shops have for lease signs in windows.

All while majority of the construction sector is still ploughing on.

Double standards with the usual union pull overriding a balanced and fair go for all sectors.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 15, 2021, 02:45:09 pm
So Covid has killed the hospitality sector. Sheep happens in a pandemic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 15, 2021, 02:54:21 pm
Construction is only operating at 25% of what they say they need which is of course 4 times the usual number.
I've family, friends and associates in the building industry.

They aren't really constrained by the lockdown, they are constrained by the lack of available materials. That is the main reason they are working at reduced capacity, they would be flat out on new builds if they could get materials. Home renovations and small refurbishments won't help as the small jobs are at the very back of the queue for obtaining supplies, and changing the lockdown state won't fix that problem. It's the lack of material supply from overseas that is the problem, there are local suppliers, but the big boys have sucked up all the local materials at a premium price the bulk of the industry won't or can't pay!

I've another associate that is a hardware importer, mostly fixtures and fittings(furniture) for doors and windows, etc., etc.. They have containers and containers of stuff stuck somewhere between China and Australia, typically Singapore or Hong Kong, waiting for ships to be released from quarantine. They are so desperate they have started having containers unpacked by hand and sending urgent quantities by air, this drives the cost through the roof so end users buy less and less.

The next thing that will happen is that the small builders on fixed contracts are going go belly up, because they are stuck on terms they can no longer meet, and changes to the lockdown do nothing to help them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 15, 2021, 02:58:51 pm
Exactly. Its so predicable how this government excludes construction from the restrictions yet retail sectors that most would trust more to follow strict rules about density and social distancing  masks etc have been closed for majority of this pandemic leaving the majority of them now beyond repair and unlikely to reopen.
They haven't stopped the retailers trading at all, they have stopped foot traffic, but they can market and sell online all they like. But like the construction industry, many of them can't get materials or stock to sell so the lockdown point becomes mute!

Example, I tried repetitively to get some specialist IT materials locally over the last few weeks, search every state, but came up with nothing, nada not a thing, nobody local wants to purchase and hold stock, so I got it faster and cheaper from Canada. Skimming is dead, if that is your only business plan you are screwed after this pandemic sorts itself out!

Some food industries that adopted local produce and home delivery or pick ups are booming, but it becomes very competitive, they now compete with a whole suburb or region of suppliers not just the local shopping centre. I do feel sorry for them, because every retailer is now measured against the best, not just the best nearby.

I doubt any of us can generalise, it's not as simple as point and blame! I do not know who or what they will blame next, they will get some freedom back but the shizen will remain. The news media selling us freedom as the cure is really selling a new version of snake oil!

No country or region is going to open up and burn the local health system so 20-somethings can go back to the monster rave, or industry sweat shops can refill with children, it's not going to happen. So the world better get it's head around the future!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 15, 2021, 04:28:56 pm
I've family, friends and associates in the building industry.

They aren't really constrained by the lockdown, they are constrained by the lack of available materials. That is the main reason they are working at reduced capacity, they would be flat out on new builds if they could get materials. Home renovations and small refurbishments won't help as the small jobs are at the very back of the queue for obtaining supplies, and changing the lockdown state won't fix that problem. It's the lack of material supply from overseas that is the problem, there are local suppliers, but the big boys have sucked up all the local materials at a premium price the bulk of the industry won't or can't pay!

I've another associate that is a hardware importer, mostly fixtures and fittings(furniture) for doors and windows, etc., etc.. They have containers and containers of stuff stuck somewhere between China and Australia, typically Singapore or Hong Kong, waiting for ships to be released from quarantine. They are so desperate they have started having containers unpacked by hand and sending urgent quantities by air, this drives the cost through the roof so end users buy less and less.

The next thing that will happen is that the small builders on fixed contracts are going go belly up, because they are stuck on terms they can no longer meet, and changes to the lockdown do nothing to help them.

I'm in the building industry and what you say has some merit, but not entirely true.

Yes, reduced numbers does make a difference. On bigger sites its limited to 25% of normal capacity, how they determine what normal is i'm not sure as numbers vary dramatically depending on what, when and how they are building.

For the smaller sites, normal residential housing, they are limited to 5 on site plus a supervisor. This can also have a dramatic affect on building....again, depending on the stage they are up too. Its not uncommon for there to be double that on site if not more. Clearly, half as many people means things are taking twice as long.

Yes, the shortages are certainly hurting the industry. Timber shortage has been going for a year now and the quality of builds will suffer as a result in my opinion. Can't get 90x45 anywhere unless you are a big builder, so 90x35 it is, which is obviously less structurally sound. There are rules and regulations you need to follow, but i guarantee not everyone is. I wouldn't like to be buying a new house right now. Its not just timber, but many overseas items, usually more high-end stuff, but not limited too.

Personally, i haven't been too affected by Covid up until recently where i opted to take holidays to limit the people on site. Thankfully i had enough holiday pay, although i'd struggle of the xmas break. Ultimately, this happened to coincide with me changing jobs to a new role which will be largely unaffected as its a bigger company. So good timing all round.

So the construction industry has been restricted, without being crippled. Some might argue its similar to the hospitality industry that are allowing take away only. Or retail that are allowing click and collect only. The biggest difference between those industries is that the building industry generally doesn't have to cover the rent of a brick and mortar store, whereas the others usually do. THAT is what is crippling the industry. Give some kind of rental exemptions and we won't be seeing so many stores close.

Everyone's situation is different.

Its easy to tarnish a whole industry with 1 brush, but the construction industry is so vast and varied that you'd need a Phd to work out if you were allowed to work or not. You simply cannot stop the entire industry.
What happens if there is burst water pipes? Leaky gas pipes?
Power gone out?
Broken window?
Leak in the roof.....or no roof at all in mid construction.
What happens if something is not structurally sound?.....or due to weather/storms becomes not structurally sound?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on September 15, 2021, 04:59:21 pm
[quote author=LP link=msg=351825 date=16



No country or region is going to open up and burn the local health system so 20-somethings can go back to the monster rave, or industry sweat shops can refill with children, it's not going to happen. So the world better get it's head around the future!
[/quote]

I agree.  Gladys and Dan know what is coming but they have to keep the truth from the majority of the population who cannot or will not accept the terrible toll which will continue to be exacted by this pandemic on health and businesses.

The majority view seems to be that when we reach 80% double vaccination of the over 16 population, which equates to approximately 53% of the total population, we will be back to a pre pandemic lifestyle with a few restrictions, as yet not outlined.

Look no further than Singapore for a reality check.  With a population of 5.5 million and with over 80% of their total population vaccinated, two days ago they had 500 cases a day and expect to be up around 2,000 cases a day within two weeks.

An epidemiologist in WA today said that if that state were to open its borders with an 80% vaccination rate of the over 16 population, his projections showed that within a very short time WA Health would be overwhelmed by approx 240,000 cases.

We do need to get our heads around the future.









Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 15, 2021, 06:51:43 pm
I will be shocked if we don't get over 90% of the 16+ population vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 15, 2021, 08:53:21 pm
https://au.news.yahoo.com/victorian-premier-refuses-to-offer-pfizer-over-60-s-095537916.html
Dan is really on a power trip and must be dreading when CoVid ends and he has to go back to being mild mannered Dan Andrews instead
of Super Dan the almighty ruler of Victoria and holder of the magic elixir that everyone wants.
Let them eat cake Dan or in this case Vaxzevria or what ever they are trying to disguise it as this week, hope the over 60's vote his sorry Ar$e out next election.
Obviously his ego is more important than Over 60's health and even though most of the other other states are now offering a choice to get vaccination levels up he wants to be different Dan and keep his power trip going.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 15, 2021, 09:40:44 pm
It's looking like AZ is better protection anyway, OS stats are hinting AZ treated people do not lose immunity / resistance as quickly as the mRNA vaccinated people.

Also the 12 week regime looks to be superior to the 6, 4 or 3 week regimes, but it's early days.

I tend to trust the scientists claiming cross vaccination is the way to go as they have no political motive for doing so, the same cannot be said for politicians or some others! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 15, 2021, 10:27:35 pm
Vaxzevria or what ever they are trying to disguise it as this week
As everybody knows, the reason it has been renamed is to adopt the name used in the EU. Apparently, there was a risk that Aussies dosed with AZ wouldn't have been regarded by the EU as being vaccinated with approved vaccines. Apart from the difference in name, our AZ is manufactured in Australia.  It seems renaming the vaccine will ensure the EU recognises it. This seems to be a bit weird, but remember we're dealing with the EU here and bureaucracy is the name of the game.

I was vaccinated with AZ, so if the renaming allows me to enter European countries in the future, I will thank whoever is responsible for the change.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on September 16, 2021, 12:15:41 am
https://au.news.yahoo.com/victorian-premier-refuses-to-offer-pfizer-over-60-s-095537916.html
Dan is really on a power trip and must be dreading when CoVid ends and he has to go back to being mild mannered Dan Andrews instead
of Super Dan the almighty ruler of Victoria and holder of the magic elixir that everyone wants.
Let them eat cake Dan or in this case Vaxzevria or what ever they are trying to disguise it as this week, hope the over 60's vote his sorry Ar$e out next election.
Obviously his ego is more important than Over 60's health and even though most of the other other states are now offering a choice to get vaccination levels up he wants to be different Dan and keep his power trip going.




I'm a senior and I have a completely different view regarding people over 60 refusing to be vaccinated with AZ.  In fact I regard them as an absolute embarrassment to our age group.

Anyone in the senior age group would have seen the damage and heartache caused by polio, whooping cough, tb, etc, etc, and would have jumped at the chance of being vaccinated when vaccines were released.

We know that Pfizer is safe for the young, and we know that AZ is safe for the over 60 group.  Millions of doses of AZ have been given to the elderly in Australia without problems resulting.  So what level of stupidity is required to demand Pfizer when we do not have enough for our young and AZ is readily available?

Both Gladys and Dan were coy when questioned today about the availability of Pfizer in October, bearing in mind that we have already brought shipments forward and doses will need to be transferred to the UK and Singapore in the coming months.  Clearly, there is not enough available to everyone who wants it.

I watched several elderly couples being interviewed tonight who said it was their right to choose their vaccine. Hello!  Where did that right spring from?

When asked what he would do about it, one old fool said that he would exercise his right to Pfizer and would wait his turn rather than have AZ.

 It just reinforces the view that stupid people do not become wiser with age.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 16, 2021, 01:11:29 am



I have a different view and have friends who have been advised by their doctor to have Pfizer but when presented to be jabbed have been refused even with a note from their Doctor. AZ isnt safe for all over 60 IMO just as Pfizer isnt safe for everyone either depending on an individuals medical profile and candidates need to be advised by their Doctor on which is safer. My daughters MIL cant have AZ due to blood Clot issues but cant have Pfizer either being 60 plus and has been told to wait.
Other states want their vaccination rates up quickly so are offering both, where are their supplies coming from?
I dont have a problem with younger folk having priority but when Pfizer vials are thrown away at the end of each day due to cancelled appointments I cant work out why over 60s who want them cant have those about to be expired doses if they are on a waiting list. Like it or not AZ is a damaged brand and to beat vaccine hesitancy I think like the other States Victoria should offer the choice where possible ie youngsters a priority but any spare or going to waste Pfizer allowed into the arms of over 60's.
We want better vaccination numbers and need to be more flexible IMO and not have a Premier giving attitude to over 60's...thats not going to get them jabbed and more likely the opposite.
Especially a Premier who fecked up Quarantine with his Private security debacle, cost lives and then couldnt remember/lied about the details in front of a Inquiry and threw his health minister under the bus to save himself. He is the last person to be lecturing 60 plus year olds on the merits of ethical behaviour IMHO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 16, 2021, 08:01:51 am
There is no use the media highlighting these inequities now, they caused them!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 16, 2021, 08:04:50 am
Especially a Premier who fecked up Quarantine with his Private security debacle, cost lives and then couldnt remember/lied about the details in front of a Inquiry and threw his health minister under the bus to save himself. He is the last person to be lecturing 60 plus year olds on the merits of ethical behaviour IMHO.

But he never makes a mistake, does he? ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 17, 2021, 01:59:24 pm
I thought this was a pretty clever move by a US hospital, they have basically called out staff requesting vaccine exemptions on the basis of a moral / religious objections to vaccines using foetal cells as part of vaccine development.

Basically the hospital position is do not be a hypocrite. You can be exempt from the vaccines if you want, but you have to be consistent with your claim, and exclude yourself from all the medicines that have been developed using foetal cell lines. This including a bunch of day to day stuff.
Quote
The list includes Tylenol, Pepto Bismol, aspirin, Tums, Lipitor, Senokot, Motrin, ibuprofen, Maalox, Ex-Lax, Benadryl, Sudafed, albuterol, Preparation H, MMR vaccine, Claritin, Zoloft, Prilosec OTC, and azithromycin.
Now wouldn't that be interesting if those rules applied here, removing the option to pick and choose.

If you apply for an exemption or exclusion that must be applied globally! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on September 17, 2021, 04:51:15 pm


I have a different view and have friends who have been advised by their doctor to have Pfizer but when presented to be jabbed have been refused even with a note from their Doctor. AZ isnt safe for all over 60 IMO just as Pfizer isnt safe for everyone either depending on an individuals medical profile and candidates need to be advised by their Doctor on which is safer. My daughters MIL cant have AZ due to blood Clot issues but cant have Pfizer either being 60 plus and has been told to wait.
Other states want their vaccination rates up quickly so are offering both, where are their supplies coming from?
I dont have a problem with younger folk having priority but when Pfizer vials are thrown away at the end of each day due to cancelled appointments I cant work out why over 60s who want them cant have those about to be expired doses if they are on a waiting list. Like it or not AZ is a damaged brand and to beat vaccine hesitancy I think like the other States Victoria should offer the choice where possible ie youngsters a priority but any spare or going to waste Pfizer allowed into the arms of over 60's.
We want better vaccination numbers and need to be more flexible IMO and not have a Premier giving attitude to over 60's...thats not going to get them jabbed and more likely the opposite.
Especially a Premier who fecked up Quarantine with his Private security debacle, cost lives and then couldnt remember/lied about the details in front of a Inquiry and threw his health minister under the bus to save himself. He is the last person to be lecturing 60 plus year olds on the merits of ethical behaviour IMHO.


I think NovaVax may make an appearance later this year. That may be the half way house for those that cannot have the other vaccines.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 17, 2021, 06:13:45 pm
I think NovaVax may make an appearance later this year. That may be the half way house for those that cannot have the other vaccines.
Japan are very keen on Novavax and its reported that it will be made in Sth Korea, they have had issues with supply of materials as well as funding issues from the US Government. It has had some very good early testing reviews in England and is very promising but there isnt enough data yet to show if its any better or worse than the others at this stage. I think it will be more of a niche vaccine as it doesnt have the massive world wide production capabilities that Pfizer or AZ have but of course if it proves effective with less side effects then everyone will want it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 17, 2021, 07:52:12 pm
it doesn't have the massive world wide production capabilities that Pfizer or AZ have but of course if it proves effective with less side effects then everyone will want it.

IMO this is the biggest concern/apprehension facing the average person as to whether to have it or not its the unknown side effects and the fact they will not and cant give any data on it mid to long term safety as the normal testing processes have not been able to be applied to this one?

There will be no comparing of side effects and then make a decision as the Pfizer and AZ side effects wont be known for many years.
 
How those who are advocating pregnant women to take the vaccine can look at them self in the mirror is anyone's guess.  Who in the right mind while having a delicate fetus forming inside them would without the pressure of media/pollies etc happily accept a vaccine when there is no side effect data available and put bluntly they cannot tell you 100% if its safe for the mother let alone a fetus.  I mean has there even been one pregnant women die of this strain in Australia and yet they try and scare poor mothers into taking it.  And no recourse later will make up for babies being born with health issues.

Madness.   
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 17, 2021, 08:46:55 pm
IMO this is the biggest concern/apprehension facing the average person as to whether to have it or not its the unknown side effects and the fact they will not and cant give any data on it mid to long term safety as the normal testing processes have not been able to be applied to this one?

There will be no comparing of side effects and then make a decision as the Pfizer and AZ side effects wont be known for many years.
 
How those who are advocating pregnant women to take the vaccine can look at them self in the mirror is anyone's guess.  Who in the right mind while having a delicate fetus forming inside them would without the pressure of media/pollies etc happily accept a vaccine when there is no side effect data available and put bluntly they cannot tell you 100% if its safe for the mother let alone a fetus.  I mean has there even been one pregnant women die of this strain in Australia and yet they try and scare poor mothers into taking it.  And no recourse later will make up for babies being born with health issues.

Madness.   
If you are going to complain about pregnant women getting the vaccine, at least understand that it is a FOETUS, not fetus.
If thats your understanding of English, i'm not going to trust your understanding of Science.

FWIW, my wife is a microbiologist/protein biochemist who specialises in infectious diseases and vaccine research.
Forgive me if i'm going to trust her judgement over yours.
My sister in law is pregnant with her first child and we had no trouble encouraging her to get the vaccine.

If you want links to this to educate yourself on the topic, i can provide them for you.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 17, 2021, 09:06:26 pm
IMO this is the biggest concern/apprehension facing the average person as to whether to have it or not its the unknown side effects and the fact they will not and cant give any data on it mid to long term safety as the normal testing processes have not been able to be applied to this one?

There will be no comparing of side effects and then make a decision as the Pfizer and AZ side effects wont be known for many years.
 
How those who are advocating pregnant women to take the vaccine can look at them self in the mirror is anyone's guess.  Who in the right mind while having a delicate fetus forming inside them would without the pressure of media/pollies etc happily accept a vaccine when there is no side effect data available and put bluntly they cannot tell you 100% if its safe for the mother let alone a fetus.  I mean has there even been one pregnant women die of this strain in Australia and yet they try and scare poor mothers into taking it.  And no recourse later will make up for babies being born with health issues.

Madness.
Actually, statistically speaking, the huge number of doses issued is a valid substitute for issuing less doses and waiting many more years.

I know you don't believe that, but it is just the way it is! It's because side-effects do not happen lock step in time, but on a spectrum of intervals after vaccination. So by the time you have injected enough people you should be seeing the appearance of early cases if there is going to be some significant side-effects. Side-effects like efficacy is represented on a bell curve.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 17, 2021, 09:17:05 pm
If you are going to complain about pregnant women getting the vaccine, at least understand that it is a FOETUS, not fetus.
If thats your understanding of English, i'm not going to trust your understanding of Science.

FWIW, my wife is a microbiologist/protein biochemist who specialises in infectious diseases and vaccine research.
Forgive me if i'm going to trust her judgement over yours.
My sister in law is pregnant with her first child and we had no trouble encouraging her to get the vaccine.

If you want links to this to educate yourself on the topic, i can provide them for you.
I cant get a read on the vaccine for pregnant women debate, my daughter who wants to start a family was referred to two different Obstetrician-gynecologists and one said the vaccines were safe and the other said no if you were pregnant. Her sister inlaw who is pregnant was told No vaccine as well by another specialist...what to believe?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 17, 2021, 09:20:21 pm
I cant get a read on the vaccine for pregnant women debate, my daughter who wants to start a family was referred to two different Obstetrician-gynecologists and one said the vaccines were safe and the other said no if you were pregnant. Her sister inlaw who is pregnant was told No vaccine as well by another specialist...what to believe?


If nothing else, the chance of the mother getting Covid and the effect that would have on the foetus is far more likely (and worse) than any potential effect the vaccine could have on the foetus.

That aside, there are personal circumstances that would cause a doctor(s) to say yes/no other than because the vaccine is not safe....but that is what is usually assumed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 17, 2021, 09:35:28 pm
If nothing else, the chance of the mother getting Covid and the effect that would have on the foetus is far more likely (and worse) than any potential effect the vaccine could have on the foetus.

That aside, there are personal circumstances that would cause a doctor(s) to say yes/no other than because the vaccine is not safe....but that is what is usually assumed.
My daughter has had issues with Polycystic ovaries but has tested fine recently and also had the extra testing for genetic issues as well with no problems found. Not sure of her SIL's medical profile, I would have thought like you that more risk in passing on CoVid in the short term....

https://arkmedic.substack.com/p/the-curious-case-of-the-miscalculated?justPublished=true

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 18, 2021, 01:52:21 am
If you are going to complain about pregnant women getting the vaccine, at least understand that it is a FOETUS, not fetus.
If thats your understanding of English, i'm not going to trust your understanding of Science.

FWIW, my wife is a microbiologist/protein biochemist who specialises in infectious diseases and vaccine research.
Forgive me if i'm going to trust her judgement over yours.
My sister in law is pregnant with her first child and we had no trouble encouraging her to get the vaccine.

If you want links to this to educate yourself on the topic, i can provide them for you.

As you know I rarely comment on your posts or your replies to my posts for that matter but this one got to me. Like (I’m nearly certain) many on here I find your posts are rarely if ever accepting of people’s ‘ opinions’ generally have a condescending slate and mostly angled towards you not ever backing down in attempting to convince everyone you’re an authority on every single topic discussed. Apart from that you’re usually rude and find a way to get personal.

Your reply confirms the above.

Your poor wife 🤦🏻‍♂️
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 18, 2021, 02:02:30 am
I cant get a read on the vaccine for pregnant women debate, my daughter who wants to start a family was referred to two different Obstetrician-gynecologists and one said the vaccines were safe and the other said no if you were pregnant. Her sister inlaw who is pregnant was told No vaccine as well by another specialist...what to believe?


EB if 2 out 3 specialists advise against it wouldn't that be enough to cast real doubt on it? 

Massive risk and burden to carry if it turns out bad.

I mean specialists say no to mums eating raw fish, blue cheese, no glass of wine but hey let’s stick a vaccine in that has not had the usual testing with no long term data and hope for the best on a growing baby.

What am I missing here.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 18, 2021, 05:01:54 am
As you know I rarely comment on your posts or your replies to my posts for that matter but this one got to me. Like (I’m nearly certain) many on here I find your posts are rarely if ever accepting of people’s ‘ opinions’ generally have a condescending slate and mostly angled towards you not ever backing down in attempting to convince everyone you’re an authority on every single topic discussed. Apart from that you’re usually rude and find a way to get personal.

Your reply confirms the above.

Your poor wife 🤦🏻‍♂️
There is one thing to have an opinion on something football related that is rather subjective.
There is another to have an opinion on something that is based on science or in your case zero evidence and if people believe it, it can ruin lives.
I will not apologise for defending science against the uninformed masses and if your feelings got hurt by my personal reply then I hope it shocks you into thinking about what you say in the future that can cause harm to others.
In response to you calling me out on that personal approach, I suggest you reread your response.... or are you exempt from your own rules?  Hypocrite.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on September 18, 2021, 07:46:42 am
If you are going to complain about pregnant women getting the vaccine, at least understand that it is a FOETUS, not fetus.
If thats your understanding of English, i'm not going to trust your understanding of Science.

I thought both were acceptable spellings.

(but these days I get my 'here' and 'hear'... and 'there' and 'their' mixed up when I'm writing ) ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 18, 2021, 08:33:04 am
I thought both were acceptable spellings.

(but these days I get my 'here' and 'hear'... and 'there' and 'their' mixed up when I'm writing ) ;D
Depends what country you are in.

It seems he's been reading a lot of american propaganda with that spelling. ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 18, 2021, 08:47:40 am
Depends what country you are in.

It seems he's been reading a lot of american propaganda with that spelling. ;)

Wrong.  Unless you ignore this

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b&q=What+is+the+difference+between+fetus+and+foetus%3F&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjEsNXgiofzAhXFQ3wKHWnBB7sQzmd6BAg7EAU&biw=893&bih=526&dpr=0.9
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 18, 2021, 08:49:53 am
I thought both were acceptable spellings.

(but these days I get my 'here' and 'hear'... and 'there' and 'their' mixed up when I'm writing ) ;D

Try wear / we're / where @Lods :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 18, 2021, 09:44:24 am
EB if 2 out 3 specialists advise against it wouldn't that be enough to cast real doubt on it? 

Massive risk and burden to carry if it turns out bad.

I mean specialists say no to mums eating raw fish, blue cheese, no glass of wine but hey let’s stick a vaccine in that has not had the usual testing with no long term data and hope for the best on a growing baby.

What am I missing here.
Shawny, my daughter is an RN so is under a fair bit of pressure to get jabbed through work as is and needs to make a decision in the next 4-5 weeks.There is evidence from overseas studies about miscarriages, changes to menstrual cycles etc but medical professionals have been told to toe the party line in Aus and not speak out with regards concerns. Nurses too have been told not to adopt an antivax stance either even though a lot are leaving the job and the Nurses Fed wants a covid allowance payment to stop the
drain of talent quitting the job.
My expectation is she will have to have the vaccine or face losing her ability to work in the hospital system.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 18, 2021, 10:36:03 am
Shawny, my daughter is an RN so is under a fair bit of pressure to get jabbed through work as is and needs to make a decision in the next 4-5 weeks.There is evidence from overseas studies about miscarriages, changes to menstrual cycles etc but medical professionals have been told to toe the party line in Aus and not speak out with regards concerns. Nurses too have been told not to adopt an antivax stance either even though a lot are leaving the job and the Nurses Fed wants a covid allowance payment to stop the
drain of talent quitting the job.
My expectation is she will have to have the vaccine or face losing her ability to work in the hospital system.

That is absolutely disgusting mate. Poor girl. Our PM bangs on it won’t be mandatory in this country yet the main industries won’t allow you to work without it.

I’m in the building game and our guys only decision now is either take the vaccine or find another  occupation. Sad but no option as you simply can’t get onto any building site without it.

To inflict more pain I have 4 regional blokes (3 are fully vaccinated and the other had his first shot) and out of the blue due to the latest restrictions those poor blokes are out of work indefinitely as they are banned from entering metro from regional

So many double standards so many inconsistencies you end up just throwing your arms in the air and giving up. Nothing surprises me anymore.

We get led on that once we are fully vaccinated and the population reaches a certain percentage of vaccination our lives can go back to some level of normality yet the longer his pandemic goes on ‘mr I can’t recall’ finds new ways to justify more pain for citizens that have followed his advice.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 18, 2021, 10:50:25 am
Wrong.  Unless you ignore this

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b&q=What+is+the+difference+between+fetus+and+foetus%3F&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjEsNXgiofzAhXFQ3wKHWnBB7sQzmd6BAg7EAU&biw=893&bih=526&dpr=0.9
Like much of Wikipedia, that the Google USA version of "the world", like they call baseball the World Cup.

English not Amglish!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 18, 2021, 10:52:01 am
I thought both were acceptable spellings.

(but these days I get my 'here' and 'hear'... and 'there' and 'their' mixed up when I'm writing ) ;D
These days your US softhair redrived autodirect spiel chucker does it for you!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 18, 2021, 10:55:29 am
FFS, having a baby and not being vaccinated is about 1500% riskier than having a baby and being vaccinated, mostly doctors avoid making the call to ensure they are not left liable by mere coincidence.

Even after the local Feds legislated to removed legal liability, many local medicos follow on the behaviour and recommendations of overseas doctors who still have legal liability. Much of social media makes commentary ignoring the issue of legal liability altogether!

This is a problem made by lawyers, not a problem caused by science, vaccines or politicians.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 18, 2021, 11:04:09 am
We get led on that once we are fully vaccinated and the population reaches a certain percentage of vaccination our lives can go back to some level of normality yet the longer his pandemic goes on ‘mr I can’t recall’ finds new ways to justify more pain for citizens that have followed his advice.
Wow, the penny has just dropped for the "let's force everybody to attend a pox party, whether they want to or not" camp. Covid 0 was the evil that had to be ended, pronto. No doubt the theory was that this would hasten re-opening. But it doesn't seem to have worked out that way, has it?

The irony is that we had a lot more freedom when he had Covid 0. And a well-vaccinated population would have made it a lot easier for contact tracers to maintain that long-term but inherently unstable solution.

Now, due to the behaviour of absolute ass-hats, we're facing lockdowns and restrictions stretching on ad nauseum. Because no Australian government will allow exponential growth of Covid, if only because the health system would collapse. 

Well, it's your pox party so you can cry if you want to, as the song says.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 18, 2021, 11:13:22 am
There are some terrific ideas on social media about dealing with Sars-CoV-2 and letting it rip, letting a few people die for the greater good, dynamically improving the gene pool while saving a few dollars!

Really innovative stuff, not heard since Sir Francis Galton and Josef Mengele were boys!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Bluesers on September 18, 2021, 11:16:09 am
Wrong.  Unless you ignore this

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b&q=What+is+the+difference+between+fetus+and+foetus%3F&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjEsNXgiofzAhXFQ3wKHWnBB7sQzmd6BAg7EAU&biw=893&bih=526&dpr=0.9

According to who?   An American of course.   Giving an American opinion, and according to American authored journals..    And they are never wrong, are they?  About anything.
Frankly,  idgaf which spelling,  it's a bit like gaol/jail to me  -  we all know what it means.
I thought the posters here were above semantics.... 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 18, 2021, 11:45:09 am
According to who?   An American of course.   Giving an American opinion, and according to American authored journals..    And they are never wrong, are they?  About anything.
Frankly,  idgaf which spelling,  it's a bit like gaol/jail to me  -  we all know what it means.
I thought the posters here were above semantics.... 

So why raise it when I did not?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 18, 2021, 01:11:28 pm
Wow, the penny has just dropped for the "let's force everybody to attend a pox party, whether they want to or not" camp. Covid 0 was the evil that had to be ended, pronto. No doubt the theory was that this would hasten re-opening. But it doesn't seem to have worked out that way, has it?

The irony is that we had a lot more freedom when he had Covid 0. And a well-vaccinated population would have made it a lot easier for contact tracers to maintain that long-term but inherently unstable solution.

Now, due to the behaviour of absolute ass-hats, we're facing lockdowns and restrictions stretching on ad nauseum. Because no Australian government will allow exponential growth of Covid, if only because the health system would collapse. 

Well, it's your pox party so you can cry if you want to, as the song says.

That's the best excuse/argument you have to my post implying its sad that regional employees who are fully vaccinated followed all the rules are within the spate of 48 hours out of work if they work in metro Melbourne. These are not rule breakers rather the opposite. You do understand not everyone that challenges the running of the pandemic is a D-head, protesting in the 1000s or doing lines of coke at illegal parties. The shear majority may not agree but follow the rules. I know that doesn't suit your narrative but its a fact. The same way as this virus has a 95% survival rate. Again doesn't suit your spin but its a fact.

If you want to blame every F up this 'i cant recall' leader makes on the minority of idiots who break the law and do self minded acts, you really are showing your bias and your ignorance. 

The man you blindly seem to support no matter what is the very same man with the blood of 700 plus lives lost last year due to his stubbornness on quarantine or maybe again it was the 1% of the population who broke the rules.

And maybe Dan simply did not recall any of his decisions when questioned.   :o  :-X     
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 18, 2021, 02:07:21 pm
No, I just love anti-vaxxers trying to act like normal people so they can sew confusion. Love the attempt you made to float the idea that the vaccines are mutagenic and it's an outrage that women would need to run that risk in order to work. I'm surprised you didn't try it on with the other half of the population as well. After all, Professor Nicki Minaj has revealed that vaccines can make balls swell, rendering men impotent and sterile. Wow! How could anybody look himself or herself in the mirror after forcing men to run that risk!

So let's see, vaccines shouldn't be taken by any female who is still capable of having children. And it shouldn't be taken by any males who may wish to have children later on or have penetrative sex at some point. And of course it goes without saying it would be an outrage if children were to be vaccinated as we should wait until they turn 18 and can make that decision as adults. And of course anyone in the 60+ age group should boycott vaccines if they can't choose their own favourite.

Looks like we won't go close to herd immunity, doesn't it? After all, the 70% figure only equates to about half of the population, and we should really be looking at a population-wide coverage of 80% or maybe 90%.

Yep, let's just let it rip instead as herd immunity is a pipe dream.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 18, 2021, 02:12:25 pm
If you want to blame every F up this 'i cant recall' leader makes on the minority of idiots who break the law and do self minded acts, you really are showing your bias and your ignorance. 

The man you blindly seem to support no matter what is the very same man with the blood of 700 plus lives lost last year due to his stubbornness on quarantine or maybe again it was the 1% of the population who broke the rules.

And maybe Dan simply did not recall any of his decisions when questioned.   :o  :-X     
Can I ask - what is your super beef with Dan? I don’t get the ‘Dan is locking us up for his power trip’ rhetoric at all. I do not see any advantage to him as a leader whatsoever in these lockdowns.

You know he is given advice to follow in accordance with public health orders, right?

Why are you so personally against him but don’t seem to have the same level of vitriol to Slowmo and his inept leadership and fellow MPs in Hunt Frydenburg Dutton and co? Is it just dyed in the wool Liberal ideologies across the board? Or has a state ALP directive personally effected you badly along the way? I am really curious.

I don’t follow Dan’s leadership blindly but i trust in the advice he’s been given plus I admire him following thru with what he’s said he’ll do - which is mostly and only needs to change due to the ever changing nature of a worldwide pandemic.

The only reason 95% survival rate has been achieved is there’s an bazillion people with underlying health conditions - which by the way include obesity, asthma, diabetes; Which many people have - that have had no choice but to have hidden themselves away from having a chance of catching it.

Feds were responsible for the 800 aged care deaths - they didn’t bother to take any learnings from the Newmarch deaths in NSW and left those poor people unprotected. In Viv State run homes the number was not many at all.

But hey for some Reason Slowmo seems to walk thru these conversations like a hero snd Dan is a dICtaTOR - it’s such a juvenile and incorrect response.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 18, 2021, 02:21:08 pm
And don't forget it's apparently Dan who's trying to force people to vaccinate rather than SloMo & Gladys (even though they're reliant on vaccinations to open up). Naughty Dan!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on September 18, 2021, 02:34:43 pm
Can I ask - what is your super beef with Dan? I don’t get the ‘Dan is locking us up for his power trip’ rhetoric at all. I do not see any advantage to him as a leader whatsoever in these lockdowns.

You know he is given advice to follow in accordance with public health orders, right?

Why are you so personally against him but don’t seem to have the same level of vitriol to Slowmo and his inept leadership and fellow MPs in Hunt Frydenburg Dutton and co? Is it just dyed in the wool Liberal ideologies across the board? Or has a state ALP directive personally effected you badly along the way? I am really curious.

I don’t follow Dan’s leadership blindly but i trust in the advice he’s been given plus I admire him following thru with what he’s said he’ll do - which is mostly and only needs to change due to the ever changing nature of a worldwide pandemic.

The only reason 95% survival rate has been achieved is there’s an bazillion people with underlying health conditions - which by the way include obesity, asthma, diabetes; Which many people have - that have had no choice but to have hidden themselves away from having a chance of catching it.

Feds were responsible for the 800 aged care deaths - they didn’t bother to take any learnings from the Newmarch deaths in NSW and left those poor people unprotected. In Viv State run homes the number was not many at all.

But hey for some Reason Slowmo seems to walk thru these conversations like a hero snd Dan is a dICtaTOR - it’s such a juvenile and incorrect response.

Many questions I've been wondering myself.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 18, 2021, 02:54:01 pm
Scomo and Dan are both flogs but only one of them has locked Victorians up for 7 months. By the way where was Dan's gestapo yesterday when his construction workers were blocking the roads yesterday?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on September 18, 2021, 03:24:08 pm
Its fairly easy for me to sit here in Darwin and point this out to you, but if the self important among you southerners would just sit still for 2 weeks you'd then be able to ease up on the restrictions.
You'd be better served directing your ire at them than any of the politicians
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 18, 2021, 03:54:36 pm
You wouldn't believe the idiocy or plain lawbreaking that's been going on down here, Northernblue. One family in Newport tested positive for Covid and were required to quarantine. As everyone knows, that means they had to stay at home 24/7, no ifs or buts. They were repeatedly found down the shops doing their shopping and buying food. Nothing could stop them from going out short of incarceration and their neighbours were not amused.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 18, 2021, 04:23:07 pm
Scomo and Dan are both flogs but only one of them has locked Victorians up for 7 months. By the way where was Dan's gestapo yesterday when his construction workers were blocking the roads yesterday?
Again, why is it a personal thing that ‘Dan has locked us up for 7 months’? It is not him personally alone with opposite health advice doing this to get his rocks off? It takes strength in leadership to stick by unpopular decisions that are in the best interests of the many, even if the many don’t see it like that.

The hero tradies spent a total of 45’minutes clogging up roads, then it rained and they all ran home. Pitiful.  What has been explained to me today is that the tradies have fought hard for proper amenities to be provided by builders on site which is why they took offence when the sheds were taken away. Not because they couldn’t sit next to their mate but be able to actually sit down for a break. Personally I think the Optics were shocking - partner is a tradie and came home with bluster about it yesterday but then saw the anti vaxers jumped onboard as an anti-lockdown, anti-vax movement, which they were not aiming for - stupid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 18, 2021, 04:25:01 pm
Its fairly easy for me to sit here in Darwin and point this out to you, but if the self important among you southerners would just sit still for 2 weeks you'd then be able to ease up on the restrictions.
You'd be better served directing your ire at them than any of the politicians

Your first part was right.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 18, 2021, 04:30:45 pm
Again, why is it a personal thing that ‘Dan has locked us up for 7 months’?

And you really saw the need to ask that question?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on September 18, 2021, 04:30:54 pm
The suggestions that any politician are on a "powertrip" because they are enforcing the advice of I don't know, professionals who are in place to offer said advice... seems just a little rediculous.

I can and do understand the frustrations of you guys who are the collatoral damage between the government and the anti vaxers/anti science brigade.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 18, 2021, 04:32:14 pm
Can I ask - what is your super beef with Dan? I don’t get the ‘Dan is locking us up for his power trip’ rhetoric at all. I do not see any advantage to him as a leader whatsoever in these lockdowns.

You won't get a legitimate answer to that, because there isn't one. Its just what the social media propaganda machine has been filling these heads with.

I've encountered these same arguments by others on construction sites. Having some apprentice plumber who dropped out of school at 15 trying to teach me science (or his backward version of it) and inform me about how vaccines work (as i mentioned elsewhere, my wife specialises in it) was a particularly interesting day.
They all peddle the same uninformed BS that they learned off facebook and Joe Rogan etc.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on September 18, 2021, 05:14:35 pm
That's the best excuse/argument you have to my post implying its sad that regional employees who are fully vaccinated followed all the rules are within the spate of 48 hours out of work if they work in metro Melbourne. These are not rule breakers rather the opposite. You do understand not everyone that challenges the running of the pandemic is a D-head, protesting in the 1000s or doing lines of coke at illegal parties. The shear majority may not agree but follow the rules. I know that doesn't suit your narrative but its a fact. The same way as this virus has a 95% survival rate. Again doesn't suit your spin but its a fact.

If you want to blame every F up this 'i cant recall' leader makes on the minority of idiots who break the law and do self minded acts, you really are showing your bias and your ignorance. 

The man you blindly seem to support no matter what is the very same man with the blood of 700 plus lives lost last year due to his stubbornness on quarantine or maybe again it was the 1% of the population who broke the rules.

And maybe Dan simply did not recall any of his decisions when questioned.   :o  :-X     

The Interim Report of the Royal Commission into Aged Care was tabled in Parliament on 31 October 2019.
Part 1  begins under the heading "A Shocking tale of Neglect."

Between that date and mid-August last year, when a close relative died in a federally funded nursing home in suburban Melbourne, nothing was done by the Federal Government to act on the changes recommended by the Royal Commission. 

You make the claim that Dan has the blood of 700 lives on his hands, but the facts show that 800 of the approx. 850 covid deaths occurred in federally funded nursing homes.

  Why is your anger not directed towards possibly the most incompetent minister since federation, 
Senator Richard Colbeck?  He is the invisible man since his appearance before a Senate committee where he embarrassed  himself with his lack of knowledge of his portfolio.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 18, 2021, 05:20:00 pm
And you really saw the need to ask that question?
Yep - what’s your answer?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 18, 2021, 05:25:22 pm
Yep - what’s your answer?

The litany of his lies and cover ups might be a good start
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 18, 2021, 05:25:40 pm
Why is your anger not directed towards possibly the most incompetent minister since federation, 
Senator Richard Colbeck? 

....because there hasn't been any social media propaganda put out by Dan and the state government, only by the other side to cover their tracks in areas like this.

You expect logic from the illogical.

Its ironic that the anti-dan, anti-vax, anti-government types label everyone following the science as 'sheep' when they are the ones who are being lead to the slaughter by misinformation and doing it with a smile on their face that only ignorance can provide.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 18, 2021, 05:26:50 pm
You won't get a legitimate answer to that, because there isn't one. Its just what the social media propaganda machine has been filling these heads with.
I fear you’re right.

I used to read the Herald Sun and over time noticed it became most like a celebrity and footy rag and the writing got worse and worse.  It really got super dumbed down.

I used to hate The Age, it was a bit too businessy for me but then I found myself finding information from there rather than the HS.

Then the changes that started seeping in when Costello took over became obvious and during last years reporting, I found it to be uninformative and anti Victorian - not Anti Dan - anti Victorian. Because head office changed to Sydney and most journos are Syd based.

I think we all just want facts. That is all I want. I don’t want bias, I am not a woke leftie at all, I am most certainly not a right winger and mostly despise the right.  I sit on the left not for my benefit but for the benefit of others - personally our family circumstances mean we sit in the middle and probably it wouldn’t make a difference for us who is in. But I would prefer the poor or immigrants etc be given help rather than the rich be given even more.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 18, 2021, 05:28:39 pm
The litany of his lies and cover ups might be a good start
What lies and cover ups?

Again where’s the vitriol towards scomo - it’s not a race, then gives me vax to gladbag when she fks up and crows about how good nsw vax is - when taking from other states and regional nsw.

What about hunt lying about not being able to get pFizer earlier?

What about Colbeck doing nothing and having people die under his watch?

Honestly look at what you’re hearing and seeing and note that it is a 70% Murdoch media in this country, you don’t think those libs deserve scrunitu? And tell me how much of it you see, honestly? Ask why? Why was gladbag able to not get harangued at her pressers - why did she walk thru the Ruby princess disaster - yes a royal commission said she and nsw health fkd up - tell me why they don’t face headlines like Dan does?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 18, 2021, 05:46:21 pm
Why did he not submit to a RC.
Why did he hide Cedar meats.
Why did he suddenly have an attack of the "don't recalls".
Why was he called a liar in Federal Parliament by the use of the ADF.
Why didn't he disclose the financials of his hirings of hotel security staff.

He is a born liar.

And don't think for a second I'll defend Berejiklian or Hazzard over the Ruby Princess.  I won't.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 18, 2021, 06:46:15 pm
When are they going to hold a RC into the rorting of the JobKeeper scheme? The Fed Govt handed out millions of dollars to companies without providing for any clawback if those companies made a killing out of the pandemic. But when challenged, Josh Fraudenberg claimed this wasn’t a bug: it was a feature. He told Leigh Sales that a lot of companies wouldn’t have taken the money if they had to repay it if they made out like bandits. So, to make sure they could stuff money into their corporate supporters’ pockets they made the payments into unconditional gifts. But they’d already done a good job of keeping corporates honest by sacking Christine Holgate.

Un-fracken-believable  :-[
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 18, 2021, 07:03:37 pm
Scomo and Dan are both flogs but only one of them has locked Victorians up for 7 months. By the way where was Dan's gestapo yesterday when his construction workers were blocking the roads yesterday?

Crickets.

Then again his back can’t take another accidental fall down the stairs either.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Bluesers on September 18, 2021, 07:15:07 pm
So why raise it when I did not?
Raise what?   I'm not really sure what you refer to,  but even though I quoted your post, the main point I was making was really in relation to another poster.   I'm sorry that you seem to have taken it so personally.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 18, 2021, 07:15:59 pm
Can I ask - what is your super beef with Dan? I don’t get the ‘Dan is locking us up for his power trip’ rhetoric at all. I do not see any advantage to him as a leader whatsoever in these lockdowns.

You know he is given advice to follow in accordance with public health orders, right?

Why are you so personally against him but don’t seem to have the same level of vitriol to Slowmo and his inept leadership and fellow MPs in Hunt Frydenburg Dutton and co? Is it just dyed in the wool Liberal ideologies across the board? Or has a state ALP directive personally effected you badly along the way? I am really curious.

I don’t follow Dan’s leadership blindly but i trust in the advice he’s been given plus I admire him following thru with what he’s said he’ll do - which is mostly and only needs to change due to the ever changing nature of a worldwide pandemic.

The only reason 95% survival rate has been achieved is there’s an bazillion people with underlying health conditions - which by the way include obesity, asthma, diabetes; Which many people have - that have had no choice but to have hidden themselves away from having a chance of catching it.

Feds were responsible for the 800 aged care deaths - they didn’t bother to take any learnings from the Newmarch deaths in NSW and left those poor people unprotected. In Viv State run homes the number was not many at all.

But hey for some Reason Slowmo seems to walk thru these conversations like a hero snd Dan is a dICtaTOR - it’s such a juvenile and incorrect response.

Can’t stand federal or state leadership at the moment. But if I was to rank them ‘I can’t recall’ Dan has no company on the integrity front let me tell you.

Don’t need to look far - just glance at the state by state death numbers. That says enough I reckon. Then he proceed to lie under oath which summed the guy up. Bottom of the barrel.

Once a liar always a liar in my book. Don’t trust a word that comes out of his mouth and never will.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Bluesers on September 18, 2021, 07:22:30 pm


Once a liar always a liar in my book. Don’t trust a word that comes out of his mouth and never will.

And he is different from 99% of the other politicians in this country how?
And before you post a reply, I am neither a supporter or otherwise.   Do not live in that state or have any association,  just pointing out that most of them, federal, state or otherwise constantly tell us lies.    It's just lies by degrees, according to each individuals' needs at any given time  -  all entirely funded by the ignorant taxpayers.     :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 18, 2021, 07:36:52 pm
And he is different from 99% of the other politicians in this country how?
And before you post a reply, I am neither a supporter or otherwise.   Do not live in that state or have any association,  just pointing out that most of them, federal, state or otherwise constantly tell us lies.    It's just lies by degrees, according to each individuals' needs at any given time  -  all entirely funded by the ignorant taxpayers.     :o
I'm still waiting for those 4000 icu beds/staff Dan promised with that 1.3 billion he allocated. Wonder where that money went?
Maybe he paid that private security firm that he doesn't know who approved or allocated the funds for..
Most politicians are good liars, Dan couldn't even claim to be that...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 18, 2021, 07:39:31 pm
I'm still waiting for those 4000 icu beds/staff Dan promised with that 1.3 billion he allocated. Wonder where that money went?
Maybe he paid that private security firm that he doesn't know who approved or allocated the funds for..
Most politicians are good liars, Dan couldn't even claim to be that...

Couldn’t have said it better EB.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 18, 2021, 07:42:30 pm
Crickets.

Then again his back can’t take another accidental fall down the stairs either.
Do you believe Luke Sayer pushed him down the stairs because he cracked on to his underage daughter?

Do you really believe he was pushed?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 18, 2021, 07:47:22 pm
I'm still waiting for those 4000 icu beds/staff Dan promised with that 1.3 billion he allocated. Wonder where that money went?
Maybe he paid that private security firm that he doesn't know who approved or allocated the funds for..
Most politicians are good liars, Dan couldn't even claim to be that...

He can't recall @ElwoodBlues1
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 18, 2021, 07:52:32 pm
Why did he not submit to a RC.
Why did he hide Cedar meats.
Why did he suddenly have an attack of the "don't recalls".
Why was he called a liar in Federal Parliament by the use of the ADF.
Why didn't he disclose the financials of his hirings of hotel security staff.

He is a born liar.
Didn’t they have any inquiry into the hotel quarantine issues? That was Peta Cretins ‘silver bullet that would bring down the Andrews gov’ yet here we are 🙄
How did he hide cedar meats?
I’d suggest when you’re busy like a Mofo you don’t actually recall everything said and done in meetings and phone calls to the T.
The security firms were on the Federal list of who to use.
VicPol didn’t want the ADF on the ground due to them wanting to be the only dept armed on the ground plus they decided the optics of having armed soldiers would alarm citizens and cause more tension on the ground.

NSW used private security firms too - have you found out who they were and who paid for them?

There were leaks from NSW quarantine too but you wouldn’t know it from the media reporting.

I mean the driver that has spread delta was working for NSW quarantine service with no PPE 🙄 yet we seem to all move past those discretions just fine.

Re the tradies, they disrupted streets for one hour max on a Friday, peacefully protesting.  Personally I think they’re morons but what point is there for Dan or Foley to mention it - I suspect
setka is working hard to get the issue resolved, at least if he has any decency he would be.

Are you in support of those protestors today that have put 10 cops in hospital? Were you there?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 18, 2021, 07:55:14 pm
I'm still waiting for those 4000 icu beds/staff Dan promised with that 1.3 billion he allocated. Wonder where that money went?
Maybe he paid that private security firm that he doesn't know who approved or allocated the funds for..
Most politicians are good liars, Dan couldn't even claim to be that...
What’s this about and when was it said? What do you think has happened to that money? Do you think he’s put it away for himself or given it to the unions? Legit Question.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 18, 2021, 08:04:41 pm
Also didn’t it come out the hotel quarantine breach wasn’t security anyway - which was just a ruse my Murdoch and cretin and co to distract and confuse - it was the night duty manager of the hotel which took it home to his family which then spread out.

So if 800 old people in aged care died and 99% of those were in Federal run homes, I don’t understand the logic that Dan killed them. At all. I don’t see how anyone can see that?

So who cares there was security instead of ADF
at VicPol request - they had nothing to do with the spread anyway I don’t believe.

Again how did Slowmo not have the foresight to build proper quarantine facilities at the beginning of a pandemic rather than rely on mid city hotels? Again, this guy walks thru unchallenged much about that.

I do actually thank you both Capcom
And Shawny for answering my question. I am always interested to hear why someone feels a way and how they see it compared to me.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 18, 2021, 08:06:33 pm
So little time, so many "look over there" comments.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on September 18, 2021, 08:13:07 pm
Why did he not submit to a RC.
Why did he hide Cedar meats.
Why did he suddenly have an attack of the "don't recalls".
Why was he called a liar in Federal Parliament by the use of the ADF.
Why didn't he disclose the financials of his hirings of hotel security staff.

He is a born liar.

And don't think for a second I'll defend Berejiklian or Hazzard over the Ruby Princess.  I won't.





As to your first point, were the findings of the Coates Enquiry not to your liking?

As to your third point, he was not called a liar in Federal Parliament: the relevant minister disputed Dan's version of events.  Given the current memory failures of current ministers and the complete breakdown of ministerial responsibility, who knows who is right. The allegation that he was called a liar can be sheeted home to - surprise, surprise - the Murdoch press and Sky News.

I see that you haven't been critical of the role Scomo has played over the last 18 months, so I suppose it is then open for Dan to use the Scomo Defence for the other three points you mention  "I don't hold a hose, mate."


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 18, 2021, 08:31:53 pm
You've got one short memory.  The liar said he was never offered ADF support.  Records show he was, multiple times.  A VERY senior officer in the Army told the Senate he was.  It was on TV.  Watch it.

But of course it's all Murdoch.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 18, 2021, 08:38:02 pm
FMD, 120 pregnant women in isolation due to Sars-CoV-2 exposure, I hope like hell it works out for the best!

Think about that 120 number, and the typical COVID statistics!

Get vaccinated, one little baby suffers because of protester antics then as far as I'm concerned all the protesters deserve to be gutted like a fish. I realise some of the protesters do not value children and women, they can always breed a few more eh?

But I value them, and most of us do!

Infants don't get a choice in your selfish protesting ways!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 18, 2021, 08:43:07 pm

Re the tradies, they disrupted streets for one hour max on a Friday, peacefully protesting.  Personally I think they’re morons but what point is there for Dan or Foley to mention it - I suspect
setka is working hard to get the issue resolved, at least if he has any decency he would be.

Re setka, he has been pretty public during this covid crises, taking out ads on the radio throughout.
His latest ad is telling construction workers to get the jab. He consulted his doctor and he got it and wants everyone else to do the same.

It's a voice of reason from a group that fails to see it. Not sure if it will make a difference, but it certainly can't hurt.

Fwiw, I'm very much anti cfmeu. Protesting having smoke outside is a very union complaint. Someone get those union boys some cement quick smart.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 18, 2021, 08:49:51 pm
What’s this about and when was it said? What do you think has happened to that money? Do you think he’s put it away for himself or given it to the unions? Legit Question.
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/huge-expansion-our-health-system-fight-coronavirus
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-17/melbourne-nurses-petition-seeks-covid-payment/100469712
Well he isnt giving to Nurses....like I said previously they are leaving the job and most wont be coming back. Underpaid, over worked and Dan
isnt looking after them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 18, 2021, 08:52:17 pm
FMD, I'm going to sit in the middle of a road in the Australian midday sun, eating a charred mystery bag of meat substitute cooked in monounsaturated oil simulant and wrapped in bread loaded with preservatives and three dozen synthetic alternatives to food, then lean back and have a smoke next to a guy who hasn't cleaned his teeth today, washed his hands or wiped his ar5e properly since his last on-site cubicle crap sans sink and toilet paper. Then I'll suck down a second Winnie Blue quickly before smoko ends.

At the end of the day drop by my mates for a snort of speed, joint or a slab of VB on the way home, before taking a K to help me get to sleep! Sometimes I do go to the gym on the way home, but I'm fresh out of roids this week and don't want to waste workout!

But feck me if I let those dangerous health workers and medicos stick me with that deadly needle!

Reminds me of the Norbits that keep telling me safety harnesses are dangerous, ............. you know deadly like seatbelts!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 18, 2021, 09:04:09 pm
Hospitality to reopen for outdoor dining and students back at school, lockdown distance extended to 25k's....as part of Dans Roadmap if targets are reached.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 18, 2021, 11:31:26 pm
So little time, so many "look over there" comments.
From me?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 18, 2021, 11:33:04 pm
You've got one short memory.  The liar said he was never offered ADF support.  Records show he was, multiple times.  A VERY senior officer in the Army told the Senate he was.  It was on TV.  Watch it.

But of course it's all Murdoch.
But it doesn’t matter!? NSW use ADF.

Vicpol Did not want ADF on the ground in Vic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 18, 2021, 11:35:29 pm
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/huge-expansion-our-health-system-fight-coronavirus
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-17/melbourne-nurses-petition-seeks-covid-payment/100469712
Well he isnt giving to Nurses....like I said previously they are leaving the job and most wont be coming back. Underpaid, over worked and Dan
isnt looking after them.
That really craps me and I’ll be honest and say I’ve not seen that - which I guess shows if you don’t have personal reasons to keep an eye on everything going on, you will miss big things getting shafted. That’s disappointing / can the union do something about this!? They should! I guess I am for the worker above all else.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 18, 2021, 11:38:22 pm
Partner told me sheds were Vocal about sheds being shut WITHOUT WARNING - which is where I guess they need to all be cuddled about what’s coming 🙄

In terms of the jab, apparently vocal they won’t tell us what do to, mob - that were whispering yo each other the next day ‘I’m getting my first jab tomorrow’ type talk.

Unions should look after their workers. But in a health crisis it’s everyone help those most
Vulnerable where you can which includes getting the jab!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 19, 2021, 06:59:28 am
From me?

Nope
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 19, 2021, 01:47:36 pm
Perhaps the tide is turning.

https://youtu.be/WFph7-6t34M

Watch the whole 8 hours+ (or watch for 15 minutes or so from the 4hours, 10 minute mark....).

Might even give LP cause for reflection!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 19, 2021, 02:31:46 pm
Dan's playing his part....

Yes, it's booster time folks (even though the FDA has knocked it back for most folk).

Next Pfizer (and ors.) 2 pill a day regime to go in tandem with the never ending boosters.

What's the bet the pills are an Ivermectin copycat? Just 100x the price.

Poor dumb Dan.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1439431187856908288
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 19, 2021, 02:48:55 pm
Watch the whole 8 hours+ (or watch for 15 minutes or so from the 4hours, 10 minute mark....).

Might even give LP cause for reflection!
Not really.

Firstly, presenting a clip of a 3rd party presenting to the FDA panel is not the same as the FDA  presenting a report to the public, so in this case you are trying to represent someone submitting an opinion to the FDA as the FDA reporting which is a deceptive use of the meeting recording.

Secondly, someone presenting VAERS data in discussing children is immediately bogus, asserting that data is applicable to children who are not part of VAERS data and have not been vaccinated is again deceptive. It's a known known that is ignored by presenters is that children frequently develop lifelong immunity from vaccinations while adults typically do not develop lifelong immunity from the very same vaccine.

The V is VAERS means "Voluntary" and in the USA that can be anybody including anti-vaxers or COVID sceptics, those bogus reports and records aren't excluded and go a long way to explain the spike in VAERS reporting is more of a social media movement than valid science!

Finally, Israel issues are known knowns, Israel opted for a 21 days vaccination schedule which greatly reduced the immune response developed by adult patients. Concluding this is applicable to children and youth is deceptive because they have only recently been included in the vaccination program.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 19, 2021, 03:12:15 pm
I think asking folk to get Boosters and maintaining vaccination levels at 70-80% might be a hard ask. I wouldnt expect that high a percentage 2nd and 3rd time around.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 19, 2021, 03:14:53 pm
I think asking folk to get Boosters and maintaining vaccination levels at 70-80% might be a hard ask. I wouldnt expect that high a percentage 2nd and 3rd time around.
Many of us get Flu shots every year without question, if the sceptics are correct shouldn't it be one for life?

Why do or should we think a coronavirus vaccine will be different?

Sars-CoV-2 is far far worse than the Flu, why would we be less motivated?

Most of this booster related debate is Certain Uncertainty being promoted by anti-vaxers and COVID sceptics.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 19, 2021, 03:29:00 pm
Many of us get Flu shots every year without question, if the sceptics are correct shouldn't it be one for life?

Why do or should we think a coronavirus vaccine will be different?

Sars-CoV-2 is far far worse than the Flu, why would we be less motivated?

Most of this booster related debate is Certain Uncertainty being promoted by anti-vaxers and COVID sceptics.
I'll disagree and the stats show why....The many of us is mainly in the older population....think about 66% over 65 years of age had the flu shot this year.
According to Flutracking, only 45 per cent of Australians 18-64 in 2021 have had their flu vaccine – compared with 71.8 per cent at the same time last year.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 19, 2021, 05:11:07 pm
Next Pfizer (and ors.) 2 pill a day regime to go in tandem with the never ending boosters.

What's the bet the pills are an Ivermectin copycat? Just 100x the price.
In the same way that ivermectin does no better than placebos in trials but no doubt at 100x the price. Jeez, if you want a placebo, just put a teaspoon of sugar in a glass of water and drink that. That'll save you heaps of running around, you'll be taking in much less sugar than a Coke and it costs a fraction of a cent.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on September 19, 2021, 05:44:46 pm
While I haven't followed this debate closely I'm wondering if anyone on here have chosen not to be vaxed?  I learn't that a family member is an anti vaxer and I find it useless to argue with such idiots, its becomming like politics and religion and to be kept away from polite company.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 19, 2021, 06:02:16 pm
Safe bet that Flyboy hasn't been vaccinated and won't be unless the men with the butterfly nets catch him. Now he has a partner in crime in Shawny who may also be a little bit anti-vax. Interestingly, though, Flyboy & Shawny haven't interacted in this thread despite their common interests, so you have to wonder whether they're 2 people or 1.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on September 19, 2021, 06:08:51 pm
Safe bet that Flyboy hasn't been vaccinated and won't be unless the men with the butterfly nets catch him. Now he has a partner in crime in Shawny who may also be a little bit anti-vax. Interestingly, though, Flyboy & Shawny haven't interacted in this thread despite their common interests, so you have to wonder whether they're 2 people or 1.

Does Flyboy wear a tin hat?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 19, 2021, 06:21:53 pm
I think Flyboy and Shawny are two excellent posters entitled to their opinions and its not healthy creating an "us against them culture". CoVid has created this vax vs antivax theme pitting different opinions/posters against each other and I find it a form of bullying when posters are singled out for having a minority/different view and IMO everything is still unresolved in terms of vaccines and outcomes and thats from novice opinions all the way up to the top end to medical professional opinions.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on September 19, 2021, 07:10:12 pm
https://theconversation.com/ivermectin-whether-formulated-for-humans-or-horses-is-not-a-treatment-for-covid-19-167340

A pretty good snapshot on the current state of play. Worth a read IMO.

What does the data show about ivermectin for treating COVID-19 in people? There are some promising findings in critically ill patients, but more high-quality data needs to be collected, particularly for those with mild or silent COVID. That’s currently in progress.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 19, 2021, 07:15:38 pm
I think Flyboy and Shawny are two excellent posters entitled to their opinions and its not healthy creating an "us against them culture". CoVid has created this vax vs antivax theme pitting different opinions/posters against each other and I find it a form of bullying when posters are singled out for having a minority/different view and IMO everything is still unresolved in terms of vaccines and outcomes and thats from novice opinions all the way up to the top end to medical professional opinions.

Agree. It’s a great pity that people feel the need to resort to put downs and attacks on the integrity and intelligence of others in order to push their own agendas. The value of this thread has been demeaned as a result imo.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 19, 2021, 07:17:30 pm
Flyboy & Shawny haven't interacted in this thread despite their common interests, so you have to wonder whether they're 2 people or 1.
There is an interesting piece of academic software that can establish that, it was originally written to identify plagiarism but it's advanced analysis exposes when posters have too closely matched characteristics like when one person posts under multiple pseudonyms.

But I think it would be cruel, because statistically there will be several bipolar people on here posting under different identities.

In any case, they aren't publishing science or fact despite sometimes wanting it painted as such, they are just publishing opinions and opinions can be shared.

Actually, if you want to win a debate in an online forum using two identities and posting arguments for and against is a great way to garnish support from both sides of the debate, if you are so inclined you can steer a debate towards your preference. But that plagiarism software will expose that, your language is your language of thought, you can't change it. But the tactic is the forum equivalent of Dorothy Dixers, which for me greatly devalues the utility of web forums, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, etc., etc.. as those sites are rife with such tactics..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 19, 2021, 07:22:11 pm
Safe bet that Flyboy hasn't been vaccinated and won't be unless the men with the butterfly nets catch him. Now he has a partner in crime in Shawny who may also be a little bit anti-vax. Interestingly, though, Flyboy & Shawny haven't interacted in this thread despite their common interests, so you have to wonder whether they're 2 people or 1.

Mav, you are one of the first to pull others up when you don't like the words they have used in a post yet you think its ok to write this sort of online character attack singling out 2 posters who don't share your view. And the really sad part is you post it completely out of the blue. 

Very disappointing post and thankfully you're behavior is in the minority on this site or i would find another to use.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 19, 2021, 07:23:31 pm
I think Flyboy and Shawny are two excellent posters entitled to their opinions and its not healthy creating an "us against them culture". CoVid has created this vax vs antivax theme pitting different opinions/posters against each other and I find it a form of bullying when posters are singled out for having a minority/different view and IMO everything is still unresolved in terms of vaccines and outcomes and thats from novice opinions all the way up to the top end to medical professional opinions.




Appreciate your post Elwood. If only others had your level of integrity and manners the world would be a much better place. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 19, 2021, 07:43:59 pm
Appreciate your post Elwood. If only others had your level of integrity and manners the world would be a much better place. 
No Probs Shawny, its a forum for opinions not put downs and I may not agree with posters opinions but will always defend their right to have an opinion if put forward in the right manner and both you and Flyboy always argue your views in the right manner and are valued members. I think Cookie nailed it with his post ....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 19, 2021, 07:55:35 pm
I'll disagree and the stats show why....The many of us is mainly in the older population....think about 66% over 65 years of age had the flu shot this year.
According to Flutracking, only 45 per cent of Australians 18-64 in 2021 have had their flu vaccine – compared with 71.8 per cent at the same time last year.
Some of this is a delay resulting from the two week exclusion period surrounding vaccine shots, I think you'll find the Flu shot stats catch up as more people pass the 2nd vaccine shot.

I know my local doctors are pushing getting the flu shot, once you are two weeks past your second Sars-CoV-2 shot.

However, there is also an issue this year, in that the reduced presence of Influenza due to the widespread use of masks has meant the type of flu shots being offered are more generic than previous.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on September 20, 2021, 03:22:42 pm
Quick curiosity - anyone who has kids is required to get them vaccinated against a whole heap of things over a 4 year period, starting from about 6 months old.

Without the vaccinations, they are not allowed to attend child-care, kinder or school.

Where are the protests about this (you can't tell us what to put into our kids)?

There seems to be a pattern - no drinking at pubs, so instead people will congregate outside them, drinking.  Wonder why this then becomes a banned activity.  Parents and kids at parks, no masks, no social distancing with parents just meeting and talking to each other.  Then wonder why this is banned.  Construction industry disregards maximum numbers onsite.  Wonders why tea-rooms/compulsory vacc is introduced.

Pretty easy.  Follow some easy rules and we can all get out of this rubbish way of living more quickly, more easily and with less restriction when vacc targets are reached.  Your 'rights' are no more important than mine, so just f#@$% do it, stop carrying on as if you or your opinion about this matters - it just makes life harder for everyone.

Maybe, though, it is just an extension of a whole heap of other things.  The tax act was once quite thin, but due to 'loopholes' needed to be expanded.  Parliamentarians once resigned when they broke standards, so maybe that's where it is breaking down.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on September 20, 2021, 03:25:13 pm
I think Flyboy and Shawny are two excellent posters entitled to their opinions and its not healthy creating an "us against them culture". CoVid has created this vax vs antivax theme pitting different opinions/posters against each other and I find it a form of bullying when posters are singled out for having a minority/different view and IMO everything is still unresolved in terms of vaccines and outcomes and thats from novice opinions all the way up to the top end to medical professional opinions.




I don't usually have strong opinions Elwood and prefer to live and let live ( just ask Paul lol).  I think I may have too many good friends who are in the very front line of emergency and ICU and it upsets me what they are going through now and what the consequences of the unvaccinated are being projected to have in the future.

It was explained to me that the baby boomer generation are more community minded where as later generations are more the me, me and me minded. Whilst there are always exceptions perhaps its true.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on September 20, 2021, 04:29:24 pm
I don't usually have strong opinions Elwood and prefer to live and let live ( just ask Paul lol)..............................................

I'm keeping my eye on you bratblue.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on September 20, 2021, 05:30:43 pm
I'm keeping my eye on you bratblue.




With your new avatar you can refer to me as grasshopper.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 20, 2021, 05:39:58 pm
Very Violent protests in Melbourne with building workers getting the rubber bullet treatment, be interested in what Krudd and Shawny think of proceedings. Police have been over the top and Andrews should have responded to the workers questions a bit earlier instead of making them wait and get frustrated which has led to violence.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on September 20, 2021, 06:02:27 pm
Curious what were you there for?

Fencing staples and netting clips; I had to repair one of the stock fences.  I could have got them off the shelf at our rural supplier (an essential business) but I preferred click and collect.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on September 20, 2021, 06:05:05 pm
Apparently Bill Gates has let it slip that the 5G chips are actually in the Ivermectin ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 20, 2021, 06:18:16 pm
Very Violent protests in Melbourne with building workers getting the rubber bullet treatment, be interested in what Kruud and Shawny think of proceedings. Police have been over the top and Andrews should have responded to the workers questions a bit earlier instead of making them wait and get frustrated which has led to violence.


... and his grip on power seems to slip again. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 20, 2021, 06:27:25 pm
... and his grip on power seems to slip again. 
Agree....I believe Dan has just closed the construction Industry or is about too..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 20, 2021, 06:38:47 pm
Very Violent protests in Melbourne with building workers getting the rubber bullet treatment, be interested in what Kruud and Shawny think of proceedings. Police have been over the top and Andrews should have responded to the workers questions a bit earlier instead of making them wait and get frustrated which has led to violence.

Same industry, different ends of the spectrum in terms of attitudes towards this whole debate.

I've got no doubt that the construction industry is frustrated.
There are 2 things at play here IMO.
1. The CFMEU has given the majority of workers (its members) a sense of entitlement. They generally think they can do what they want. People power. Strike. Me me me. This has transitioned to an area well outside their jurisdiction, but the attitude remains.
I made mention of CFMEU boss John Setka having rather regular ads on radio and his latest one is actually trying to get his workers to get the jab....he knows he has a problem.

2. The majority of people in the construction industry are because they are good with their hands, not their brains. A large amount never finish high school. Nothing wrong with that, people learn differently and have different interests. However, their understanding of Science is usually very much limited. Their understanding of the scientific method, almost non-existant. As a result, a lot of their information comes from 'dodgy' sources....because they simply don't know better.

Combine the 2 and we have a big issue as we are seeing.

Before Covid was even a thing, the highest suicide rates were to....
1. Males
2. Occupations in the construction industry
3. Aged between 19 and 39.
That is the perfect storm for the construction industry. People are losing mates, and they've had enough. They respond with what they think is best......which in reality, doesn't help the situation at all.

I've got uncles who are cops.
I've got family and friends who are tradies.

I see both sides of it.

Cops did what they needed to do.
Tradies are turning on eachother now, including Setka, because he 'has been turned by the government' in their eyes.

Its a giant schmozzle that is essentially created due to '1 and 2' above.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 20, 2021, 06:42:06 pm
Agree....I believe Dan has just closed the construction Industry or is about too..
Just heard the same thing.

Supposed to start a new job next Monday. This should be fun.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 20, 2021, 06:43:36 pm
Dan is shutting it all down lol. That will teach them for standing up to their fuhrer.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 20, 2021, 06:50:46 pm
Just heard the same thing.

Supposed to start a new job next Monday. This should be fun.
Bad timing for you, hopefully you new employer is not affected too much.
We have tradies in the family who rely on new builds and are going to be affected, got big mortages too.
They have been doing some private jobs but this is going to put them under pressure financially....they have all been jabbed as far as I know and are not happy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 20, 2021, 06:57:12 pm
But all lockdown are based on health advice, never tit for tat.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 20, 2021, 06:57:33 pm
Bad timing for you, hopefully you new employer is not affected too much.
We have tradies in the family who rely on new builds and are going to be affected, got big mortages too.
They have been doing some private jobs but this is going to put them under pressure financially....they have all been jabbed as far as I know and are not happy.
I know the first day is basically a meet and greet, then an online induction of sorts, not sure what is planned from there, but i will be able to ride it out without too much drama.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 20, 2021, 06:58:13 pm
But all lockdown are based on health advice, never tit for tat.
Health advice is based on 'super spreader' events, which is caused by construction industry strikes/protests.

Surely you are smart enough to put 2 and 2 together.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 20, 2021, 07:57:28 pm
Very Violent protests in Melbourne with building workers getting the rubber bullet treatment, be interested in what Krudd and Shawny think of proceedings. Police have been over the top and Andrews should have responded to the workers questions a bit earlier instead of making them wait and get frustrated which has led to violence.


Personally I've never been a fan of the unions even though in some areas I guess they are a necessary evil - generally have little to no regard for their employer and pretty much take what they can get and will walk off site at the drop of a hat. I've seen them shut down a site because the builder didn't have a roof covering the lunch sheds to the toilets and said they are in the process of erecting one and it would be up within a week -well that wasn't acceptable and they demanded it be done that day so the builder was forced to shut the site kick every contractor off until they were satisfied and allowed it to reopen.

Its this sort of crap that sees most real hard workers trades dislike them as they get the a bad name for whole industry which is very unfair as most tradies work bloody hard and like my boys have long lasting strong relationships with their employers.  If you are mid size contractor in the building game there is little incentive IMO to grow your business as you are more likely to have to look at projects for the Tier 1 builders and all those sites have strong union presence and that's when the fun starts if your not geared up for it.

Unfortunately its the minority that cause this reaction that is likely to affect the whole industry where the majority are innocent hard honest workers and companies who don't want to get involved in protests full stop. Look in my circle most workers and employers would have preferred to have been offered the choice to take the vaccine but just prefer to accept it and move on as if it good enough for health workers to have to take it its good enough for construction (however i have heard that no decision has been made if parliament will be a vaccine requirement workplace....... surely)  The union still have strong ties and big pull over the Tier 1 projects which employ a huge amount of workers and companies directly and indirectly and if they don't accept this restriction they can make life very hard for many innocent parties which is wrong but unfortunately its the way it still is. If the unions kick in their heels things can get very ugly. 

Wonder if the unions think they can bully Dan into backflipping here -  I mean he did talk up and not deliver the additional 4000 ICU beds he promised early last year so it wouldn't be the first time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 21, 2021, 12:24:28 am
But all lockdown are based on health advice, never tit for tat.
Do you just quote crap from
The Herald sun? You sound so juvenile with your little barbs and diCTAtor dAN commentary 🙄

They said get a jab to be on site by 23 sept, after the disgusting display today they’ve shut it all
Down because the companies and union wouldn’t come To an agreement on the hours worked without it amenities/sheds (they never call them tearooms!) and the anti vax crowd jumped onto that.

Selfish bastards that don’t want a little pinchy ouchie jab, many of which they got thru childhood and many of which their parents got to get them born in the first place!  Look at the photos, half the crowd is in trackies and runners. No tradie turns up to building sites in that - bunch of brought in thugs thinking kicking a dog and hurling crates was the way to achieve the outcome they wanted.

Why anyone would be supporting these scumbags is unbelievable.

Every other industry has had to bend with this pandemic except these guys, now they can’t even take two needles - mind you some of them don’t seem to mind injecting other things…. Interesting
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 21, 2021, 08:04:52 am
Health advice is based on 'super spreader' events, which is caused by construction industry strikes/protests.

Surely you are smart enough to put 2 and 2 together.

So construction has been safe for the last 18 months until today? Nonsense.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 21, 2021, 08:29:01 am
So construction has been safe for the last 18 months until today? Nonsense.
It only takes one incident, whether that happens on Day 1 or Day 450 makes no difference!

I thought there were a couple of very specific events recently that have caused the recent problems, it may be that the building union protests are mostly coming from staunch anti-vaxers within the union or within build sites. It's really the unions problem to sort that out, I think they will do it quite quickly, the majority are not going to suffer for a vocal minority.

The anti-vaxers shout loud, it gives them the false impression they are numerous and dominant, but far far from it, the smart-ar5e ones know they are minority so they hide down the back egging the others on.

As for the shutdown I don't see that the health authority had any choice, too much widespread non-compliance forced it's hand, which has led to companies being fined or threatened with fines for COVID non-compliance, and the subsequent reaction by companies was to remove or restrict access to certain facilities.

I'm not sure there is anything murky about any of the official actions, although politics will muddy the waters as it is certainly clouding the reasons for the protests.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on September 21, 2021, 09:04:09 am
Will this ban apply to all building activity including smaller home building projects? Does anyone on here know?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 21, 2021, 09:11:21 am
So construction has been safe for the last 18 months until today? Nonsense.
1. Delta has been said time and again it is a more virulent strain that seen before
2. Tradies on in particular a big site in box hill were breaching strict Covid protocols put in place. Apparently a bikie gang ran that site and everyone was too gutless to pull them onto line then it was too late when they spread it everywhere
3. Partner told me of no masks in lifts, sitting next to each other in sheds even tho chairs are roped off
4. You have a thug group within a bigger group who initially protested lack of amenities on site then anti vaxerss jumped on board
5. Suggest you check out Josh Jones, he said it well yday - you need a stack of tickets,cards, safety courses, safety gear, to step on site. These are MANDATORY!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 21, 2021, 09:31:33 am
Will this ban apply to all building activity including smaller home building projects? Does anyone on here know?
Apparently all
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 21, 2021, 09:36:52 am
Apparently all
Got some new builds going on in our area and they are all halted.
Neighbors having a garage rebuild which is continuing this morning.
Our dog let them know not to park their vans too close, woke us up and a few others :-*
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 21, 2021, 09:44:22 am
This government seems to have one tool in the tool box regardless of the task. Its called the lockdown tool. 

Does he ever think of a solution that focus on the rule breakers alone without crippling the whole industry or am i asking too much from this guy.

Triple the fines for businesses found to be breaking the rules. Triple the fines for individuals blatantly breaking the rules and praise those who follow the rules and show support for them by allowing them to continue.  Pilling everyone in the one basket starts to make the honest rule followers doubt things as they are not being shown any support for doing the right thing.

Considering the past with lockdowns hard to be convinced a 2 week lockdown achieves anything other then again show if you don't obey Dan he will simply lock us all you down. He loves the power he has and cant come up with any other tactic to control the actions of a few idiots.

What's the solution when reopening occurs and the same mindless protests occurs  - does he return to this tool box and grabs the lockdown tool again?  Madness in a state that has suffered enough.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on September 21, 2021, 09:45:51 am
F the CFMEU and it's kin.   From alI those who have lost work while these classless meat heads stay in work yet biatch about minutiae around "conditions".  To all those who had paid with additional lock down time because these Muppets can't stay in their area,  wear a mask,  stay metre apart, wash their freaking hands or get vaccination.  Sorry fellas,  you've flushed all you social licence down the toilet.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 21, 2021, 09:54:18 am
So construction has been safe for the last 18 months until today? Nonsense.

Plenty of others have had their say about this already, but i'll repeat a few things.

1. Protests. The first one, which i said at the time, would lead to an explosion of cases and the opposite of what they wanted. Clueless anyone who thought otherwise.
The one yesterday is the final straw. Property is getting damaged, factions are being created, chaos ensuing.

2. Big sites are spreading it. As others have mentioned and are not following the rules.
Like any industry, if you don't follow the rules, new ones will be made.

Just like when only a few apartment blocks were closed down because they were spreading it.
Just like when parts of regional vic were closed down because they were spreading it.

Its not rocket science.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 21, 2021, 10:10:23 am
I can’t wait for the shenanigans when the vaccine mandate applies to the health system. How any medically trained professional could refuse the vaccine when they of all people can see the damage it inflicts is beyond me. Keeping their patients safe should be their priority. If they won’t do that, then we’re best off flushing them from the system and taking the short-term pain.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 21, 2021, 10:29:05 am
Its not rocket science.
Unfortunately @kruddler I do not think it is the people doing the bulk of the day to day grunt that are the problem, most just want to earn a quid and get in, get done and get onto the next job as quickly as possible. It's the malingerers that are the subversives, it's always been that way.

FYI, in the old days when I was young and hot headed I was an FoC, the real workers were never a problem it was always the ones who do the least making the most noise! The Union and the Builders would do well to ID the culprits and quietly kybosh them going forward, they will then find 95% of the problems disappear on most sites.

If they cause trouble on sites and disrupt everybody earning a wage, they are not good union members at all, in fact they are the very opposite of representing the ideology of a fair days pay for a fair days work!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 21, 2021, 11:31:31 am
the real workers were never a problem it was always the ones who do the least making the most noise!
^ this

Partner said it’s seems to be mainly the labourers the ones that haven’t needed to go to tafe and night school to earn their spots and worked hard to do their best. It’s the ones that are getting paid $1k a week to sweep the sheds or do menial jobs and now how dare anyone tell them that for the greater good we need to stand together and get jabbed!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 21, 2021, 11:34:27 am
Poor owner of my local cafe, said the tradies were what was keeping him being able to open for the day, now done. He’s really upset!

But go ahead you bunch of loud morons and fight for your rights (when it suits you and only serves you, of course 🙄)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 21, 2021, 11:37:02 am
Watched that video violence outside the CFMMEU this morning.  Dunno a unionist that would ever kick an innocent dog ... what a mongrel POS he is.  Infiltrated riots again. 

So much for Law and Order
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 21, 2021, 11:43:00 am
Watched that video violence outside the CFMMEU this morning.  Dunno a unionist that would ever kick an innocent dog ... what a mongrel POS he is.  Infiltrated riots again. 

So much for Law and Order
Yeah tradies don’t go to work dressed in jeans and runners…. POS - someone must know him!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 21, 2021, 11:43:11 am
NSW now have almost 250 in ICU with about 120 on ventilators, and the fools protesting still think it's all a conspiracy!

Ironically, have a look at some of the protesters, 170cm x 120kg, they want to be reserving a front row seat in the ventilator isle. Some poor nurse is going to wreck her back trying to turn those tools over to wipe their ar5e after they've crap themselves in a coughing fit!

Do like the UK, face down and ar5e to the universe covered in a splatter sheet!

FMD, imagine walking into that to start your shift, I'm afraid I'd just go the euthanasia route. They want to forget worrying about the vaccine jab and consider the green dream! But therein lies the problem, many of us have sons and daughters who care, they roll up and look after these morons like they are precious and rare. Treat them with respect, nurse them through the best they possibly can, and be treated poorly for doing it!

Which of course highlights the real issue, it's not the numbers of ventilator machines that is the problem, it's the staff needed to maintain and monitor each unit that is the limiting factor. Ventilators aren't like phone chargers, you can't just hook someone up to it and walk away!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 21, 2021, 11:54:09 am
The other thing about putting angry tradies out of work after a protest....

...with all this time on the hands, what do you think they will do? More potests!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 21, 2021, 11:58:18 am
NSW now have almost 250 in ICU with about 120 on ventilators, and the fools protesting still think it's all a conspiracy!

Ironically, have a look at some of the protesters, 170cm x 120kg, they want to be reserving a front row seat in the ventilator isle. Some poor nurse is going to wreck her back trying to turn those tools over to wipe their ar5e after they've crap themselves in a coughing fit!

Do like the UK, face down and ar5e to the universe covered in a splatter sheet!

FMD, imagine walking into that to start your shift, I'm afraid I'd just go the euthanasia route. They want to forget worrying about the vaccine jab and consider the green dream!

But there in lies the problem, many of us have sons and daughters who care, they roll up and look after these morons like they are precious and rare. Treat them with respect, nurse them through the best they possibly can, and be treated poorly for doing it!

Which of course highlights the real issue, it's not the numbers of ventilator machines that is the problem, it's the staff needed to maintain and monitor each unit that is the limiting factor. Ventilators aren't like phone chargers, you can't just hook someone up to it and walk away!
Good ICU nurses are 12 months in training, the money isn't that much extra than a non specialist RN either so you are talking very dedicated nurses wanting such a responsible job. Dan hasn't been looking after them so they are they are leaving the job...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 21, 2021, 11:58:45 am
The other thing about putting angry tradies out of work after a protest....

...with all this time on the hands, what do you think they will do? More potests!
Forget nuclear subs, time to kit up the police and Feds with serious gear.

Do like the UK or Europe, armoured vans with robot controlled water canons, strobes, tear gas and rubber bullets, and that is just for some soccer matches I've been at!
 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 21, 2021, 11:59:36 am
Good ICU nurses are 12 months in training, the money isn't that much extra than a non specialist RN either so you are talking very dedicated nurses wanting such a responsible job. Dan hasn't been looking after them so are they are leaving the job...
Why should they care for those who disrespect and devalue them?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 21, 2021, 12:02:29 pm
I've often thought the police need a tactical stand-up unit.

Someone who hangs back from the crowd and hangs crap on them via loudspeaker in the best social media tradition, it seems to be the only thing that some people understand!
"Hey fatso, why are you here protesting vaccinations, you need your mates back at work soon so they can crane you into the ICU!"

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 21, 2021, 12:10:04 pm
Why should they care for those who disrespect and devalue them?
Good Nurses care for everyone, it's often a thankless task.. The Australian system of training is very good and Aus nurses are in high demand around the world.
Pity Governments here rely on their caring good nature and don't reward them well enough.. Same with Paramedics...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 21, 2021, 12:21:58 pm
Those posts I made as light hearted as they may be are rooted in little reality, have any of you by chance read the latest science about the developments for the next generation of ventilators?

If you haven't you'll never guess how they work.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 21, 2021, 12:28:58 pm
At least the Govt is trying to protect Nurses from recalcitrant colleagues who don’t GAF about them. I’m sure there are many who’ll be far happier when they don’t have to worry about them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 21, 2021, 12:44:08 pm
Personally, the government is too invested in protecting minority rights, in reality this protest won't even be 1% of the Union and far far less of the construction industry.

I'm pegging most of them won't be missed if they DCM.

I realise that is a bit of a Duterte solution, but how can they argue against it, when they are arguing to let the virus run loose with those that die having done so for the good of all?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 21, 2021, 01:15:18 pm
At least the Govt is trying to protect Nurses from recalcitrant colleagues who don’t GAF about them. I’m sure there are many who’ll be far happier when they don’t have to worry about them.
They would probably prefer the Govt's take care of their parking issues....most lose $120 a week in Hospital parking fees, thats if they can get a park and then have to find a street a mile away if those parks are full and have a nice unsafe walk in the dark to their car. They are used to getting blood tested every second week when they get covered in some patients blood splatter or junkie pulling their cannula out etc...or getting hit on by some nutter who wants to grope them.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 21, 2021, 01:26:37 pm
Or would they prefer to be free of colleagues who think their freedom includes their freedom to infect colleagues and patients? Lethal virus vs. parking fees. I guess that's a tough choice ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on September 21, 2021, 02:16:57 pm
My daughter wants to be a paramedic EB.   I've said no freaking way unless she gets her second dan black belt.  For her graduation  I'm going to get her a flick baton.  Grope this junkie c***
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 21, 2021, 06:26:44 pm

My daughter wants to be a paramedic EB.   I've said no freaking way unless she gets her second dan black belt.  For her graduation  I'm going to get her a flick baton.  Grope this junkie c***
Tough job Prof, they have my full respect, one of my daughters best friends became a paramedic after being an RN.
Not an easy job to qualify in either as the standards are high, lot of burn outs and fatigue due to over work and thats led to extra drug testing of paramedics which hasnt gone down well.
The Government need to pay them better, provide more staff and look after their mental health too.
Good luck to your daughter, we need more young people wanting to be Paramedics and looking after the community.
The level of stress and violence also depends a lot on where you work, my Daughters friend works at Frankston and we have another contact who works at Dandenong and you earn your money in both those locations.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 21, 2021, 06:42:13 pm
Or would they prefer to be free of colleagues who think their freedom includes their freedom to infect colleagues and patients? Lethal virus vs. parking fees. I guess that's a tough choice ...
Nurses dont get a lot of time to do inventory's on who is vaccinated and who isnt, you also get a lot of transient and agency staff so your workmates change most days. They just assume every patient is a risk to a certain extent and take precautions to protect themselves. There is a small antivax presence in the Nursing community like most other workplaces and they work around it, you dont want to lose good senior nurses because they are presently unvaccinated and be left with vaccinated nitwits who cant plug a dog and a bone together or work out simple maths when setting up an IV.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 21, 2021, 07:15:14 pm
While I agree about health work wages, paying them more won't really solve the problems in the system.

They need a lot more staff and a lot more ambulance crews.

The first thing they should do is kybosh the nerd bean counters doing time and motion studies on ambulance crews and ED staff to ensure they are operating at full efficiency!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 21, 2021, 07:21:34 pm
As "nurses don't get a lot of time to do inventories on who is vaccinated and who isn't, you also get a lot of transient and agency staff so your workmates change most days", that just emphasises how necessary it is to get the anti-vaxxers out of the system. If you're right that it's only a small presence in the nursing profession, then there shouldn't be much disruption and it will be justified to protect other staff and patients.

If the hospitals struggle to obtain competent staff, then they should send the nuffies to look after the anti-vaxxer patients. No reason why the pandemic of the unvaccinated should create problems for everyone else.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 21, 2021, 07:55:31 pm
While I agree about health work wages, paying them more won't really solve the problems in the system.

They need a lot more staff and a lot more ambulance crews.

The first thing they should do is kybosh the nerd bean counters doing time and motion studies on ambulance crews and ED staff to ensure they are operating at full efficiency!
Agree....LP, ....When can you start as Health Minister?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on September 22, 2021, 12:50:06 am
While I agree about health work wages, paying them more won't really solve the problems in the system.

They need a lot more staff and a lot more ambulance crews.

The first thing they should do is kybosh the nerd bean counters doing time and motion studies on ambulance crews and ED staff to ensure they are operating at full efficiency!

A mate recently retired after a career as an ambo - most recently in a very senior role.  He's neither a nerd or a bean counter but a very experienced operational ambo.  His take is that they don't have enough ambulances (or spare parts for the ambulances they have) for additional staff.  That means that newly qualified paramedics (my niece just qualified) can't get the 12 months in the passenger seat they need as the next step in their career path.

My niece will probably have to go interstate to progress her career.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 22, 2021, 08:10:47 am
A mate recently retired after a career as an ambo - most recently in a very senior role.  He's neither a nerd or a bean counter but a very experienced operational ambo.  His take is that they don't have enough ambulances (or spare parts for the ambulances they have) for additional staff.  That means that newly qualified paramedics (my niece just qualified) can't get the 12 months in the passenger seat they need as the next step in their career path.

My niece will probably have to go interstate to progress her career.
My reference to "more ambulance crews" assumes the new hardware to go with them, and the same for nurses and health care staff.

Authorities just have to wear the cost of having some of them idle when things are quiet, there is in my opinion a point at which operations become too lean.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on September 22, 2021, 09:24:01 am
My reference to "more ambulance crews" assumes the new hardware to go with them, and the same for nurses and health care staff.

Authorities just have to wear the cost of having some of them idle when things are quiet, there is in my opinion a point at which operations become too lean.

Locating that point correctly is the $64000 question.
It’s all good until you (me) needs that urgent ambo…
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 22, 2021, 09:47:46 am
Interesting article. I’m clearly not as angry as many in the US, but then again Covid and its enablers aren’t anywhere near as bad in Australia:

The Unbelievable Grimness of HermanCainAward, the Subreddit That Catalogs Anti-Vaxxer COVID Deaths (https://slate.com/technology/2021/09/hermancainaward-subreddit-antivaxxer-deaths-cataloged.html), Slate.

Quote
It is cruel, a site for heartless and unrepentant schadenfreude. This is a place where deaths are celebrated, and it is not the only one. While endless ink has been spilled on the anger of Trump voters and Fox News viewers and QAnon adherents, there are other angers that haven’t been nearly as well explored. The exhaustion and fury doctors and nurses feel, for example, as they deal yet again with overwhelmed ICUs. Instead of being hailed as heroes, this time around they’re risking their lives to serve while walking through anti-vax protesters and being called murderers or worse by misled family members demanding or indeed suing for sick unvaccinated relatives on ventilators to be dosed with ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine or vitamin C. There is the anger of family members of those without COVID who are dying or sicker than they should be because treatment was delayed or denied to them at dozens of hospitals that had no beds available. There’s the frustration of parents trying to keep their children safe, the constant, destabilizing calculations and adaptations people are forced into when (for instance) the governor of Texas prohibits schools from taking safety measures and then two teachers at a single school die, forcing closures once again. There’s the run-of-the-mill anger of those weary of living under pandemic conditions and demoralized—in the most literal sense—by the selfishness of their compatriots.

Subscriptions to the HermanCainAward subreddit are increasing exponentially, from 2,000 subscribers on July 4 to 5,000 at the beginning of August to more than 100,000 on Sept. 1 to 243,000 Friday to 276,000 today. If that rate is any indication, rage is growing toward anti-vaxxers deliberately prolonging the pandemic out of an anti-social and deadly understanding of their rights. Now, it’s true that not everyone on the subreddit assents to its spiteful premise: One exhausted nurse wrote a long post about how much one of her anti-vax patients suffered, as an attempt at counterbalance. She acknowledged her own compassion fatigue but also urged readers to think harder about how we got to this sorry pass. Plenty of the discussions do orbit around that basic question. But most of the comments are angry. A collection of screenshots generally elicits a common sentiment: The person got their just desserts.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 22, 2021, 10:04:52 am
Locating that point correctly is the $64000 question.
It’s all good until you (me) needs that urgent ambo…
This is where they start putting a $ figure on lives, and in my opinion the point at which some of the bureaucrats and politicians lose the plot.

You can see where the "let it rip" mentality comes from, when people starting thinking that the cost of saving lives is too high!

I listened to a podcast a week or two back that likened the "let it rip" attitude to the purge, if a small portion have to die to improve the economics and gene pool then so be it, for the greater good!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 22, 2021, 11:13:29 am
Nice set of explainers from CSIRO.
Science explainer: Are COVID-19 vaccines effective against the Delta variant? – CSIROscope
(https://blog.csiro.au/vaccines-effective-delta-variant/?utm_source=Snapshot-2021-09&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=Snapshot&utm_source=SNAPSHOT+September+2021&utm_campaign=2d53397a12-&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_009008983a-2d53397a12-216913550)
Quote
Is Delta more deadly?
The WHO says this variant of concern has an increased risk of hospitalisation. This is unsurprising because increased transmissibility could go hand-in-hand with case severity until most of the world’s population is vaccinated.
A study from February to June in Canada, yet to be peer-reviewed, compared non-variants of concern with Delta. It found people infected with the Delta variant were:
105% more likely to be hospitalised
241% more likely to be admitted to an intensive care unit
121% more likely to die from the disease.

For the other three variants of concern, these values were 52%, 89% and 51% respectively.
This shows the Delta is the most problematic variant of concern to date.
Pretty succinctly explains why the goal posts are shifting!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 22, 2021, 11:38:54 am
I'd stay away from those protests, apparently some of the participants have been seen with logos from the Indonesian BMI which is the youth section of the PDI.

In Indonesia the BMI is associated with the young radicals BMI loosely translates to Young Bulls of Indonesia, the logo is below.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/31/PDI_Perjuangan.svg/1200px-PDI_Perjuangan.svg.png)
Maybe it's someone who has hijacked the logo, but you'd want to be sure because the BMI have a strong affinity to the Bali terrorist group.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 22, 2021, 12:38:42 pm
The Age is reporting that vaccinations will be mandatory for all staff at schools and early childhood centres.

1st doses must be had or booked by 18 October & the 2nd dose must be administered by November 29 unless exempted.

Good to see the Govt isn't allowing a small group of numbskulls to veto action.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on September 22, 2021, 05:29:06 pm
The only football supporter I saw arrested at the Shrine protest just had to be wearing a Carlton scarf. ::)
Prompting of course the old.... "not going well on or off the field!" comment.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Bluesers on September 22, 2021, 06:14:22 pm
The only football supporter I saw arrested at the Shrine protest just had to be wearing a Carlton scarf. ::)
Prompting of course the old.... "not going well on or off the field!" comment.

Most likely an unhappy supporter who had thrown it in the bin,
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on September 22, 2021, 06:47:10 pm
Looks like Point lonsdale has received an exemption from lock down for "economic reasons".  Hey Lisa,  our town is 7 km away and we're struggling too,  can we be exempted too?

In a month's time,  when cricket season starts,  I predict that the first ball in Port Vs. Queenscliffe C grade...well the batsman wont be stepping forwards.

As Orwell said... "all animals are equal,  but some are more equal than others"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on September 22, 2021, 07:07:54 pm
I just caught some footage of the rioters at the Shrine.  One brainiac exclaimed, "Let them shoot us on hollowed ground.  On hollowed ground!"

 ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 22, 2021, 07:09:54 pm
I just caught some footage of the rioters at the Shrine.  One brainiac exclaimed, "Let them shoot us on hollowed ground.  On hollowed ground!"

 ::)

Well, that about sums them up.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on September 22, 2021, 07:10:18 pm
Looks like Point lonsdale has received an exemption from lock down for "economic reasons".  Hey Lisa,  our town is 7 km away and we're struggling too,  can we be exempted too?

In a month's time,  when cricket season starts,  I predict that the first ball in Port Vs. Queenscliffe C grade...well the batsman wont be stepping forwards.

As Orwell said... "all animals are equal,  but some are more equal than others"

The Borough of Queenscliffe wasn't in lockdown.  It only applies to CoGG and Surf Coast.

More than 80% of the Borough's residents are fully vaccinated too so they fully deserve to escape lockdown.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 23, 2021, 10:31:40 am
What distraction are you gonna use today Andrews?   Crying out for some decent management and politicians are totally incapable of providing it. 

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 23, 2021, 11:26:53 am
What distraction are you gonna use today Andrews?   Crying out for some decent management and politicians are totally incapable of providing it. 



Yep 100% agree. He has one go to solution for any situation that this pandemic throws up.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 23, 2021, 11:28:56 am
I'd say the attack of the Nazi man-babies is a pretty good distraction!

It's amusing to imagine the idealogical gymnastics conservatives are doing right now:
Quote
It's an outrage: no one should ever disrespect the Shrine of Remembrance as these guys are doing! But they're right-wingers like me ... What would I think if the BLM protesters had done this? Shhhh ... they're not BLM protesters, they're our guys. It's okay to disrespect the Shrine of Remembrance as long as they're doing it to protect our FREEDOM!

At least the right-wingers have had some practice at doing these mental somersaults. They would have looked on as the right-wingers slammed the BLM protesters for disrespecting the police and then marched under the Blue Lives Matter banners. But when the Trumpistas staged an insurrection, carrying their Blue Lives Matter signs into the Capitol Building, they used those very banners to beat the police. Just as in Orwell's Animal Farm, the right-wingers no doubt daubed an exception under the Blue Lives Matter slogan: "unless you stand in our way".
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on September 24, 2021, 09:04:08 am
So, one of the rioters has been admitted to hospital with COVID.  Poetic justice perhaps but could it signal a super-spreader event.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 24, 2021, 10:01:16 am
So, one of the rioters has been admitted to hospital with COVID.  Poetic justice perhaps but could it signal a super-spreader event.

Was bound to happen but case numbers were escalating north (700 plus cases a day), up for weeks all while the state remains in full lockdown, 9PM curfews, 5Km BS.  Protester make a bad situation worse - but eitherway we were not winning.

First strain our leader cost us 800 lives that could have been avoided and the Delta strain 'I cant recall' took the title of most locked up place on EARTH. The bloke doesn't do things by halves i have to give him that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 24, 2021, 10:23:02 am
So, one of the rioters has been admitted to hospital with COVID.  Poetic justice perhaps but could it signal a super-spreader event.

Highly unlikely. Only a few thousand people spread out walking around the city all day. HIs close contacts will most likely get it.

First person I know has tested positive to covid, got it from work.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 24, 2021, 10:25:04 am
Of course it was only a matter of time until the “protests” would become superspreader events. The real question is whether the organisers would be happy with that outcome.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 24, 2021, 11:13:08 am
... 11 more deaths in NSW.  Shudder to think of the tragic social impacts on families. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 24, 2021, 11:15:29 am
Highly unlikely. Only a few thousand people spread out walking around the city all day. HIs close contacts will most likely get it.
First person I know has tested positive to covid, got it from work.
Unmasked "protesters" shoulder-to-shoulder at the Shrine yelling and forming rugby scrums, what could go wrong with that? Remember, the NSW removalists managed to infect people in the flat in Maribyrnong who then went to the MCG & infected 2 people who weren't sitting close to them. Just being outside isn't enough to avoid infection. You need to observe some precautions such as masking and maintaining social distance and these louts weren't doing that.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 24, 2021, 12:42:23 pm
... 11 more deaths in NSW.  Shudder to think of the tragic social impacts on families.
It will become far worse next month if the local trend follows the global trend, the 12 to 14 week mark is when the long term cases seem to give up the fight.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on September 24, 2021, 03:51:56 pm
Highly unlikely. Only a few thousand people spread out walking around the city all day. HIs close contacts will most likely get it.

First person I know has tested positive to covid, got it from work.

Not so sure about that; the bloke from Barwon Heads was able to infect folk at the G.  There's also a confirmed case of transmission between two children walking together.  The nurses who were spat on will be concerned ... and justifiably furious.

A friend's grandson has just tested positive.  He got it at chldcare.  Fortunately, he doesn't seem all that unwell and his parents and grandmother are fully vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 24, 2021, 05:16:59 pm
We all understand how it spreads. Indoors is worse than outdoors.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 24, 2021, 05:33:24 pm
In the US, they found that Trump's open-air rallies were usually superspreader events. Even though the open-air would reduce transmission, it wouldn't eliminate it. The fact his supporters refused to wear masks or social distance helped the Delta variant beat the odds.

EDIT: It probably wasn't even the Delta variant back then. It was probably the original Covid or the Alpha variant: much less transmissible and yet it still turned Trump's rallies into superspreader events. Imagine what the Delta variant would have done ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on September 24, 2021, 05:57:23 pm
We all understand how it spreads. Indoors is worse than outdoors.

But do enough understand that masks, social distancing and staying at home are part of minimising transmission ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 24, 2021, 06:05:39 pm
In the US, they found that Trump's open-air rallies were usually superspreader events. Even though the open-air would reduce transmission, it wouldn't eliminate it. The fact his supporters refused to wear masks or social distance helped the Delta variant beat the odds.

Delta while Trump was in power?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 24, 2021, 06:18:50 pm
Delta while Trump was in power?
You're right! I didn't see your post until after I edited my post but it occurred to me as it did to you that there was a bit of an anachronism. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 24, 2021, 07:38:27 pm
But do enough understand that masks, social distancing and staying at home are part of minimising transmission ?


Yes.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 24, 2021, 07:41:24 pm
In the US, they found that Trump's open-air rallies were usually superspreader events. Even though the open-air would reduce transmission, it wouldn't eliminate it. The fact his supporters refused to wear masks or social distance helped the Delta variant beat the odds.

EDIT: It probably wasn't even the Delta variant back then. It was probably the original Covid or the Alpha variant: much less transmissible and yet it still turned Trump's rallies into superspreader events. Imagine what the Delta variant would have done ...

What would you consider a bigger super spreader?

The 5000 dick heads walking around the city the other day or the infamous engagement party?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 24, 2021, 08:25:29 pm
That will be apparent in retrospect (tho the engagement party will take some beating).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 24, 2021, 09:00:18 pm
I'm still furious about both
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on September 25, 2021, 01:20:00 pm
X2.  The flagrant disregard for the wider community is breath taking,  the selfishness is  unbelievable, especially from the hat wearing mob.   They're very fast to jump on any perceived threat, but their attitude to the community that they are actually a part of,  whether they want to acknowledge it or not,  has been laid bare to see.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 25, 2021, 01:38:52 pm
Interesting discussion about dealing with misinformation and disinformation:
From QAnon to anti-vaccination, scholar Andy Norman says we face a scourge of "mind parasites" (https://www.salon.com/2021/09/24/from-qanon-to-anti-vaccination-scholar-andy-norman-says-we-face-a-scourge-of-mind-parasites/), Salon.
Quote
One of the important things that I took from this book was this idea that our beliefs are not private. This both-sides-ism, "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion" doesn't help and is actively toxic. You say there are certain worldviews that are just toxic.

When people start doing things that harm others, I think we start to develop grounds for objecting to those behaviors, and belief is just like that. If you believe things that don't harm others, fine. But if you believe things that indirectly do harm others, they become a matter of public concern. So if I believe that vaccines are the spawn of the devil and refuse to vaccinate my kids, my kids end up being harmed. My beliefs can harm others. If I believe irresponsible things and end up casting my votes or for a would-be authoritarian leader, I end up harming the entire public.

When you dwell on examples of beliefs that harm others, you realize that it's perfectly irresponsible to indulge the idea that everyone is entitled to their beliefs. It lets our beliefs both drift away from what's genuinely helpful and moral, but it also lets them drift away from reality and lets them drift away from each other. And when our worldviews drift too far apart, as we're seeing now, it gets really hard to have productive conversations and to keep a specific experiment together. So for social reasons, for truth and honesty reasons, and for moral reasons, we need to get rid of the idea that belief is where everyone is entitled to their opinion, and instead adopt a more public spirited concept of belief.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on September 25, 2021, 10:27:25 pm
It’s interesting that the corporates are running advertisements promoting vaccination.  It’s also interesting how much better they are than the lame efforts by the Federal Government.  Of course, the corporates have the best advertising agencies and past campaigns to build on.  The Government, on the other hand, is constrained by the requirement to go with the lowest quote and a lack of imagination.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 26, 2021, 09:03:15 am
Melbourne fans gathering at the MCG, apparently that's okay.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 26, 2021, 10:02:36 am
Melbourne fans gathering at the MCG, apparently that's okay.

Wonder why…. Maybe it’s cause law abiding folk that followed the rules for the last 18 months have had enough and lost faith in the lack of leadership and belief with the clown running this state.  Running it to the ground more like it.

How he remains with any authority is criminal. After last years disaster his government promised on april 1 we would not be in and out of lockdown in 2021 as we would be prepared with the additional 4000 icu beds. Finally one media outlet had the balls to ask during the week why this never occurred and where the funding has gone but typically Dans amnesia returned and failed to answer the question or provide any clarity. He is consistent on one thing - lying and deceiving.

So hard to stay the course when ship if being led by  a captain who lies, rarely if ever keeps his word and has a on again off again memory condition. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on September 26, 2021, 10:23:46 am
Still waiting to see if we come out of lock down on the Bellerine after the massive case numbers down here.    Crickets.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 26, 2021, 10:28:56 am
Don't count on it Prof
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on September 26, 2021, 11:41:13 am
Still waiting to see if we come out of lock down on the Bellerine after the massive case numbers down here.    Crickets.

22 active cases and no increase, and 81.2% of folk have had their first vaccination; is that enough?  We need to improve on 53% fully vaccinated.

Surf Coast has 90% with their first vaccination and Queenscliffe has 95%.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 26, 2021, 12:48:39 pm
Quote
There was also good news for the city of Geelong, which will be released from lockdown at midnight despite the diagnosis of six new cases on Saturday.

"There are still cases there and perhaps in another environment in previous times, we would have stayed in lockdown to drive those numbers down to a hard zero," Deputy Chief Health Officer Deb Friedman said.

"But that's no longer in line with our management of this virus, under the national plan."

https://au.yahoo.com/news/warning-as-victoria-eases-lockdown-restrictions-022317760.html (https://au.yahoo.com/news/warning-as-victoria-eases-lockdown-restrictions-022317760.html)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on September 26, 2021, 01:03:51 pm
We're free Prof!  :D

I had a delicious Barramundi in Queenscliff, and a feed of fish chips near Portarlington pier before lockdown (not on the same day!).  I might go back and do it again.  Best of all, our neighbours' cellar door and bistro will be open next weekend  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 26, 2021, 01:16:41 pm
https://au.yahoo.com/news/warning-as-victoria-eases-lockdown-restrictions-022317760.html (https://au.yahoo.com/news/warning-as-victoria-eases-lockdown-restrictions-022317760.html)

Is he serious? How are we supposed to take this guy seriously when he proudly announces these sorts of irrelevant easings to a place he has turned into a prison because he has no clue how to control anything without just locking it down. Short and sharp was the plan.

He gives the most locked up place on earth a whole extra 5km to move. You can’t make this stuff up.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 26, 2021, 01:41:17 pm
Is he serious? How are we supposed to take this guy seriously when he proudly announces these sorts of irrelevant easings to a place he has turned into a prison because he has no clue how to control anything without just locking it down. Short and sharp was the plan.

He gives the most locked up place on earth a whole extra 5km to move. You can’t make this stuff up.
Shawny, real question - where do you get your news from? Is it Herald Sun? Just curious, because you and Capcom and Madboyblue all have this real visceral hatred of Dan and seem to find this whole epidemic and lockdowns, to be his personal fault.

The protests over the past week are being hashtagged #murdochriots because the language and actually one of the banners took its comment straight off the Herald Sun.

I know many people don’t believe Andrews is doing a good job, but I want to know what is it you’d prefer him to do? If the HS was reporting this as they do NSW, I wonder if you’d feel differently?

It’s a genuine curiosity I have.

He spoke about the 4,000 icu beds in today’s presser. Basically that it takes time to train up and recruit that many nurses to be skilled enough to run 4,000 beds. but that also we wouldnt want to have 1,000 ICU beds full let alone 4,000.

I’m not saying he hasn’t lied, every politician lies.

But I see him as genuinely hard working and trying his best, with 100% blowback but most media in this State plus our inept Fed Gov.

So you disagree that the 800 dead from
Last year were from FEDERALLY RUN aged care? STATE RUN aged care came through with I think 20 deaths, not sure on that.

How can it be Dan’s fault? How come he doesn’t get a gold star from you for the state run aged care coming thru unscathed, yet you point the finger at him For the deaths in fed run? Honestly that makes no sense to me.

Do you know other countries are going in and out of lockdown all the time? Singapore has gone back into one recently. There is no quick fix unfortunately.

Do you have equal hatred of Jeroem, Foley and Sutton? Or do you believe the diCTAtor dAN theory in that he is the one making every decision regardless of what others say? And he is doing so to keep everyone miserable?

I think Australia and other island nations are in such a unique position, we all could’ve squashed Covid snd been free communities. How come you’re not pointing the finger at the feds to say why was a quarantine station not built in March 2020
In the middle of this massive country, to take in overseas travelers? Why was it left to the states to repurpose hotels in the middle of the city? That just makes no sense. Yet someone scumo is not getting grilled over this very basic thing he could’ve arranged early on, and we’d all be free to live our lives. No Covid spread.

Please also stop with the Dan stuffed quarantine by not having the AFD. that is a Sky News rhetoric and Peta had all the evidence to bring down the Andrews government one year ago - yet, here we all sit.

I think you’re a good person that is suffering or your children are, it is frustrating, it feels never ending. But we will get there ☮️

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 26, 2021, 02:10:06 pm
Shawny, real question - where do you get your news from? Is it Herald Sun? Just curious, because you and Capcom and Madboyblue all have this real visceral hatred of Dan and seem to find this whole epidemic and lockdowns, to be his personal fault.

Which government funds aged care in Victoria?  Federal.  Which government is charged with running them?  State.  My "hatred'?  Way too kind a word.  The pr1ck has an excuse for everything.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 26, 2021, 02:44:04 pm
Interesting article:  Half of unvaccinated workers say they’d rather quit than get a shot – but real-world data suggest few are following through (https://theconversation.com/half-of-unvaccinated-workers-say-theyd-rather-quit-than-get-a-shot-but-real-world-data-suggest-few-are-following-through-168447), The Conversation.

Given vaccinations & everything Covid is much more politicised in the US than here, the statistical analysis is pretty relevant. It would seem that even the anti-vaxxers in the Deep South give in after talking tough.

The vaccine mandates announced in Victoria are already being credited with boosting the vaccination rate.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on September 26, 2021, 03:44:12 pm
Shawny, real question - where do you get your news from? Is it Herald Sun? Just curious, because you and Capcom and Madboyblue all have this real visceral hatred of Dan and seem to find this whole epidemic and lockdowns, to be his personal fault.

The protests over the past week are being hashtagged #murdochriots because the language and actually one of the banners took its comment straight off the Herald Sun.

I know many people don’t believe Andrews is doing a good job, but I want to know what is it you’d prefer him to do? If the HS was reporting this as they do NSW, I wonder if you’d feel differently?

It’s a genuine curiosity I have.

He spoke about the 4,000 icu beds in today’s presser. Basically that it takes time to train up and recruit that many nurses to be skilled enough to run 4,000 beds. but that also we wouldnt want to have 1,000 ICU beds full let alone 4,000.

I’m not saying he hasn’t lied, every politician lies.

But I see him as genuinely hard working and trying his best, with 100% blowback but most media in this State plus our inept Fed Gov.

So you disagree that the 800 dead from
Last year were from FEDERALLY RUN aged care? STATE RUN aged care came through with I think 20 deaths, not sure on that.

How can it be Dan’s fault? How come he doesn’t get a gold star from you for the state run aged care coming thru unscathed, yet you point the finger at him For the deaths in fed run? Honestly that makes no sense to me.

Do you know other countries are going in and out of lockdown all the time? Singapore has gone back into one recently. There is no quick fix unfortunately.

Do you have equal hatred of Jeroem, Foley and Sutton? Or do you believe the diCTAtor dAN theory in that he is the one making every decision regardless of what others say? And he is doing so to keep everyone miserable?

I think Australia and other island nations are in such a unique position, we all could’ve squashed Covid snd been free communities. How come you’re not pointing the finger at the feds to say why was a quarantine station not built in March 2020
In the middle of this massive country, to take in overseas travelers? Why was it left to the states to repurpose hotels in the middle of the city? That just makes no sense. Yet someone scumo is not getting grilled over this very basic thing he could’ve arranged early on, and we’d all be free to live our lives. No Covid spread.

Please also stop with the Dan stuffed quarantine by not having the AFD. that is a Sky News rhetoric and Peta had all the evidence to bring down the Andrews government one year ago - yet, here we all sit.

I think you’re a good person that is suffering or your children are, it is frustrating, it feels never ending. But we will get there ☮️



My sentiments exactly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on September 26, 2021, 04:20:01 pm
Which government funds aged care in Victoria?  Federal.  Which government is charged with running them?  State.  My "hatred'?  Way too kind a word.  The pr1ck has an excuse for everything.



As well as being responsible for the funding of aged care in Victoria the Commonwealth Government 's responsibilities include the regulation for quality of care standards in those facilities.

Under John Howard funding arrangements were changed to allow private operators to self regulate the ratio of trained staff to residents.

The Royal Commission into the Aged highlighted the incompetence of successive federal ministers in failing to maintain standards.  It was pointed out that time and time again operators of nursing homes were given official notice of visits to check compliance with the regulations -  unannounced visits were never undertaken by the department.

When covid hit it was found many staff workers in privately owned, federally funded nursing homes were working shifts across several homes in order to make ends meet, thus helping to spread covid.

As I've asked before on this thread: why the hatred for Dan and not a word about the failures of the Federal Government and responsible ministers?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 26, 2021, 04:29:59 pm
I don't owe you (or anyone else) an answer to that so don't waste your time.  I've said before MANY TIMES I hate a lot of people on both sides of politics.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on September 26, 2021, 04:43:12 pm
Suitably righteous of you… 🙄
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 26, 2021, 04:56:03 pm

As I've asked before on this thread: why the hatred for Dan and not a word about the failures of the Federal Government and responsible ministers?



I answered you before, I'll say it again.

Scomo is a flog but Andrews is the one who has destroyed our great city.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 26, 2021, 05:03:58 pm
Suitably righteous of you… 🙄

.. and your interest in my opinion is?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on September 26, 2021, 05:51:51 pm
.. and your interest in my opinion is?

I don't owe you (or anyone else) an answer to that so don't waste your time
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 26, 2021, 06:05:49 pm
I don't owe you (or anyone else) an answer to that so don't waste your time

Well considered and original response  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 26, 2021, 06:19:09 pm
Interesting article:  Half of unvaccinated workers say they’d rather quit than get a shot – but real-world data suggest few are following through (https://theconversation.com/half-of-unvaccinated-workers-say-theyd-rather-quit-than-get-a-shot-but-real-world-data-suggest-few-are-following-through-168447), The Conversation.

Given vaccinations & everything Covid is much more politicised in the US than here, the statistical analysis is pretty relevant. It would seem that even the anti-vaxxers in the Deep South give in after talking tough.

The vaccine mandates announced in Victoria are already being credited with boosting the vaccination rate.
190 staff have left the ED at a large inner Melb hospital in the last 18 months, wards are full and vaxed patients with side effects are
clogging up ED's and taking up resources. If numbers ever reach the modelling figures of 2000 cases the hospital system will collapse in Melbourne.
Real world data isnt so real, you need to speak to the staff at the hospitals to get the real picture...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 26, 2021, 06:25:14 pm
Rumored there could be a bit of Novavax finding its way to Melbourne as well in the next 3-4 weeks.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 26, 2021, 06:35:07 pm
190 staff have left the ED at a large inner Melb hospital in the last 18 months, wards are full and vaxed patients with side effects are
clogging up ED's and taking up resources. If numbers ever reach the modelling figures of 2000 cases the hospital system will collapse in Melbourne.
Real world data isnt so real, you need to speak to the staff at the hospitals to get the real picture...


My mother in law was a career long nurse who went into early retirement.
Her husband worked in the hospital system as well transporting patients around in the covid wards, he went into an even earlier retirement.

These are not isolated cases. Overworked and in high risk environments.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 26, 2021, 06:44:59 pm
My mother in law was a career long nurse who went into early retirement.
Her husband worked in the hospital system as well transporting patients around in the covid wards, he went into an even earlier retirement.

These are not isolated cases. Overworked and in high risk environments.
A lot of Nurses are getting out of the job, its become a nightmare profession to work in. They need to build more Hospitals and
staff them correctly instead of trying to screw every last drop of blood out of the staff they have left now.
According to Dan whose amnesia has cleared up the 4000 ICU beds and equipment he promised have been found in a Warehouse.....lots of rats, cockroaches and mice in that Warehouse requiring ventilators.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 26, 2021, 06:58:01 pm
190 staff have left the ED at a large inner Melb hospital in the last 18 months, wards are full and vaxed patients with side effects are
clogging up ED's and taking up resources. If numbers ever reach the modelling figures of 2000 cases the hospital system will collapse in Melbourne.
Real world data isnt so real, you need to speak to the staff at the hospitals to get the real picture...
I'd probably prefer real world data. The problem with anecdotal evidence is that it usually comes from a small sample. For instance, if you listen to anti-vax or vaccine-sceptical health workers, you'll probably get a pretty skewed version of reality. Vaccine mandates are the way to go, even if some health workers will fall by the wayside. But I'd be happy for the Govt. to throw some money into raising staffing levels.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on September 26, 2021, 07:02:50 pm
I'd probably prefer real world data. The problem with anecdotal evidence is that it usually comes from a small sample..................................

I agree. There's a logical fallacy simply called the Anecdotal Fallacy, which is a very common technique used in argumentation. I favour the collection of both anecdotal and real world data, and I suspect this is what more frequently happens.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 26, 2021, 07:07:47 pm
190 staff have left the ED at a large inner Melb hospital in the last 18 months, wards are full and vaxed patients with side effects are
clogging up ED's and taking up resources. If numbers ever reach the modelling figures of 2000 cases the hospital system will collapse in Melbourne.
Real world data isnt so real, you need to speak to the staff at the hospitals to get the real picture...

Frightening @ElwoodBlues1 ... so glad I'm well out of that chaos.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 26, 2021, 07:30:14 pm
Shawny, real question - where do you get your news from? Is it Herald Sun? Just curious, because you and Capcom and Madboyblue all have this real visceral hatred of Dan and seem to find this whole epidemic and lockdowns, to be his personal fault.

The protests over the past week are being hashtagged #murdochriots because the language and actually one of the banners took its comment straight off the Herald Sun.

I know many people don’t believe Andrews is doing a good job, but I want to know what is it you’d prefer him to do? If the HS was reporting this as they do NSW, I wonder if you’d feel differently?

It’s a genuine curiosity I have.

He spoke about the 4,000 icu beds in today’s presser. Basically that it takes time to train up and recruit that many nurses to be skilled enough to run 4,000 beds. but that also we wouldnt want to have 1,000 ICU beds full let alone 4,000.

I’m not saying he hasn’t lied, every politician lies.

But I see him as genuinely hard working and trying his best, with 100% blowback but most media in this State plus our inept Fed Gov.

So you disagree that the 800 dead from
Last year were from FEDERALLY RUN aged care? STATE RUN aged care came through with I think 20 deaths, not sure on that.

How can it be Dan’s fault? How come he doesn’t get a gold star from you for the state run aged care coming thru unscathed, yet you point the finger at him For the deaths in fed run? Honestly that makes no sense to me.

Do you know other countries are going in and out of lockdown all the time? Singapore has gone back into one recently. There is no quick fix unfortunately.

Do you have equal hatred of Jeroem, Foley and Sutton? Or do you believe the diCTAtor dAN theory in that he is the one making every decision regardless of what others say? And he is doing so to keep everyone miserable?

I think Australia and other island nations are in such a unique position, we all could’ve squashed Covid snd been free communities. How come you’re not pointing the finger at the feds to say why was a quarantine station not built in March 2020
In the middle of this massive country, to take in overseas travelers? Why was it left to the states to repurpose hotels in the middle of the city? That just makes no sense. Yet someone scumo is not getting grilled over this very basic thing he could’ve arranged early on, and we’d all be free to live our lives. No Covid spread.

Please also stop with the Dan stuffed quarantine by not having the AFD. that is a Sky News rhetoric and Peta had all the evidence to bring down the Andrews government one year ago - yet, here we all sit.

I think you’re a good person that is suffering or your children are, it is frustrating, it feels never ending. But we will get there ☮️



My children are severely suffering mate as is the majority of states when you live in the most locked up place on earth. I do sincerely appreciate your reply as you are genuine but obviously we are sitting on different sides of the fence and view things accordingly.

This man is a stone faced liar which as you rightly point out all political figures are but his lies were done under oath where he was asked to respond to the process in place that ultimately lead to the death of 700 plus Victorian’s so they are on a completely different level to the standard daily lies pollies make. This very point is enough for him to never ever be allowed to hold a place in power again.
He stubbornly refused to follow the rest of the country quarantine set up that whatever way you want to interpret it resulting in hundreds of lives that would have been spared like they were in every other state that did it differently.
He then promised 4000 icu beds which was only said to take some pressure of him yet when it came down to it he never delivered one extra bed. Not one!  The nurse number not being able to service those beds argument is tied into him as well - of course he didn’t think of that part as he original promise was not thought out as he says what he needs to at the time to get thru rather then coming up with thought out practical polices that may actually help. The poor nurses are overworked and like ambos are severely underpaid and he has done nothing - absolutely nothing to assist them at all. Yet funny thing is he didn’t miss the opportunity to give himself a pay rise did he? He is the last person that needed that rise and the audacity to take it speaks volumes of his ego and power trip he is on. He is accountable to no one which is a utter disgrace.

He locked up kids playgrounds ffs when we had 20 odd cases based on advise and re opened them when we had 200 cases. Incompetent and nonsensical decisions are consistent under his reign such as the utter stupidity of restricting the movements of citizens that are already on their knees to 5km increments. All for his control as from a health perspective there is no sense in that rule at all.
These are facts that can’t be disputed and as such he should not be leading the state and imo should be on manslaughter charges the same way in my business if my negligence caused the death of one employee let alone 700 plus I would be held accountable. Amnesia would not provide me the get out of jail card that he was afforded the luxury of using.

Disgraceful and criminal.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 26, 2021, 09:05:57 pm
Frightening @ElwoodBlues1 ... so glad I'm well out of that chaos.
It is Cap, the system is stretched and propped up by agency nurses, however when a specialty nurse is required ie Cardiac..often it will just be an RN without that specialty training who is sent to fill in that shift/s so the standard of care drops.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 26, 2021, 09:53:40 pm
All the health recommendations are based on case track and trace, the count isn't the primary driving factor.

Once cases are identified and quarantined, rules can change, but it's the mystery cases, protests and deliberate wilful disobedience that keeps the ground shifting on the health regulators.

It's interesting to hear nothing from the radical right who have been using Gladys Burythemall's freedom template as a basis for calling Victoria's Dan to account, mostly via Murdoch's Peta (Frankenstein's Bride) Credlin. So what happens today, Gladys cancels the NSW promises and falls into line with federal health recommendations for the higher vaccination target before freedoms can apply. Why, because her terrific numbers excluded much of regional NSW, now the truth appears, Sydney CBD was vaccinated at the expense of the rest of the state, and now the cases have headed for a country holiday!

So now the targets for NSW and Vic are almost identical. Credlin will still be calling for Vic to re-open at the same time as NSW, ignoring that the Vic vaccination rate is lagging primarily due to the Fed bias in distribution of vaccines. Gladys still claims it's because NSW does a better job, better at being thieves is probably the best analogy, second only to being better at screwing over the rural constituency!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on September 26, 2021, 11:01:57 pm
Which government funds aged care in Victoria?  Federal.  Which government is charged with running them?  State.  My "hatred'?  Way too kind a word.  The pr1ck has an excuse for everything.

Wrong!

The State Government runs some aged care facilities.  The vast majority are private sector or not for profits but all are the responsibility of the Federal Government. 

Interestingly, the facilities run by the State Government had the lowest COVID infection/fatality rates.

If you're going to criticise the State Government, it's probably a good idea to get your facts right. 

The current "leader" of the Victorian Libs was a minister in my department and I find it hard to characterise his performance/integrity without resorting to profanity.  Let's just say that if he was the Premier now, the scale of the clusterfeck would enormous.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on September 26, 2021, 11:19:19 pm
Thanks for answering Shawny, I appreciate it. I’m so sorry your kids are really hurting.

You’re right I suppose where you sit now is how you view it - besides loss of doing what we want my family has maintained our life pretty much in terms of work. My kids are ok remote learning and otherwise are ok.

I disagree on the lies you’ve attributed to Dan and view him as a strong leader. But understand that due to your circumstances you see it differently.

I hope Covid screws off for all our sakes.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on September 26, 2021, 11:30:28 pm
The Doherty Institute is not the government.  It is an independent research body with some of the smartest, most knowledgeable people in the country working on the COVID pandemic.  I like to read their updates because I know that they are based on the best science and they shine a light at the end of the tunnel.

For example:
Quote
... once we achieve 70%-80% vaccination we will see less transmission of COVID-19 and fewer people with severe illness, and therefore fewer hospitalisations and deaths. COVID-19 won’t go away but it will be easier to control in the future. These estimates come from the modelling work completed to date led by the Doherty Institute and commissioned by the Commonwealth Government to advise on the National Plan to transition Australia's National COVID-19 Response

This level of vaccination will make it easier to live with the virus, as we do with other viruses such as the flu. However, it won’t be possible to maintain a situation where there are no cases at all. The focus will shift to keeping the number of people going to hospital and dying at a minimum.

In an average year of influenza, we would roughly have 600 deaths and 200,000 cases in Australia. Any death is a tragedy, but our health system can cope with this. In the COVID-19 modelling, opening up at 70% vaccine coverage of the adult population with partial public health measures, we predict 385,983 symptomatic cases and 1,457 deaths over six months. With optimal public health measures (and no lockdowns), this can be significantly reduced to 2,737 infections and 13 deaths.

We’ve learned from watching countries that have removed all restrictions that there is no ‘freedom day’. We will need to keep some public health measures in place – test, trace, isolate and quarantine – to keep the reproduction number below 1, but as vaccination rates increase, we’ll be able to ease up further and it is unlikely that we will need generalised lockdowns.

Once we reach 70% vaccine coverage, opening up at tens or hundreds of cases nationally per day is possible, however, we will need vigilant public health interventions with higher case loads.
https://www.doherty.edu.au/news-events/news/statement-on-the-doherty-institute-modelling

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 26, 2021, 11:46:11 pm
The Doherty Institute is not the government.  It is an independent research body with some of the smartest, most knowledgeable people in the country working on the COVID pandemic.  I like to read their updates because I know that they are based on the best science and they shine a light at the end of the tunnel.
This little bit of is something that isn't spoken about enough.
Quote
We’ve learned from watching countries that have removed all restrictions that there is no ‘freedom day’. We will need to keep some public health measures in place – test, trace, isolate and quarantine – to keep the reproduction number below 1, but as vaccination rates increase, we’ll be able to ease up further and it is unlikely that we will need generalised lockdowns.
This truth is pretty much completely ignored by mainstream media and most political commentary.

When I read some of the comments here it is clear some believe in the concept of "Freedom Day", which is an ironic term given letting it run loose at moderate vaccination dates results in the ultimate removal of freedom for some people, death!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 27, 2021, 12:32:20 am
https://www.doherty.edu.au/uploads/content_doc/DOHERTY_MODELLING_INTERIM_REPORT_TO_NATIONAL_CABINET_17TH_SEPTEMBER_2021.pdf
For those who want a look into the future........cant see lockdowns being lifted to any great extent even at 70%.
Hope those high seeding figures never happen and the knuckleheads in the community show some common sense and continue safe practices .
Remembering Victoria has about 800 ICU beds and NSW has a few more.
Gladys has been telling some more porkies too claiming that NSW can get that up to 2000 quickly....
AMA vice president Chris Moy, has accused the Berejiklian government and health authorities of being “flippant” in insisting the New South Wales health system can expand its intensive care capacity to 2,000 beds, warning that if it is able to source enough staff to care for that many patients, hospitals would be in a state of “catastrophe”.
Moy is talking about home care for some less ill CoVid patients with GP's and visiting nurses providing that care including equipment being installed in patient homes.
Moy believes GPs are the “missing link” in NSW’s Covid surge contingencies, and said that without them alleviating hospital workers, “I don’t know where staff to care for 2,000 ICU patients would come from”.
Good luck with getting GP's to fill in the gaps, State governments should have thought more about training more ICU nurses and paying them properly.
Promising beds you cant deliver is one thing but forgetting about providing trained staff is another...and for the record its 12 months to train an ICU Nurse and not every Nurse
has the ability so you have to get the best to be putting their hand up for the role.

He also believes highly skilled nurses who have recently left ICUs to work in the state’s Covid vaccine clinics will need to be recalled to intensive care units if a surge in serious coronavirus hospitalisations eventuates.
ER and ICU Nurses wont like that given they get paid more jabbing CoVid vaccines into arms and get to go home at a normal time.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 27, 2021, 12:43:40 am
https://www.doherty.edu.au/uploads/content_doc/DOHERTY_MODELLING_INTERIM_REPORT_TO_NATIONAL_CABINET_17TH_SEPTEMBER_2021.pdf
For those who want a look into the future........cant see lockdowns being lifted to any great extent even at 70%.
Hope those high seeding figures never happen and the knuckleheads in the community show some common sense and continue safe practices .


EB, has there been any advise on the rules of quarantine if exposed once the state opens. Surely not the same 14 day quarantine is going to apply if your fully vaccinated?

Everyone concedes opening up will have case numbers heading north so the chances of being near live with or at a tier one site is going to be a much higher probability then we currently have. Hopefully if your fully vaccinated that rule doesn’t apply.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 27, 2021, 12:53:48 am
Thanks for answering Shawny, I appreciate it. I’m so sorry your kids are really hurting.

You’re right I suppose where you sit now is how you view it - besides loss of doing what we want my family has maintained our life pretty much in terms of work. My kids are ok remote learning and otherwise are ok.

I disagree on the lies you’ve attributed to Dan and view him as a strong leader. But understand that due to your circumstances you see it differently.

I hope Covid screws off for all our sakes.

Thanks micky. Agree that Covid views are skewed depending on your personal situation.  I know some that are getting nice government kickbacks for doing no less or more then they ever have as a casual worker which IMO is wrong yet they checked and it’s legal so they are taking it. If they are ok mentally don’t have children to be concerned about they will view Covid very differently to someone who may have lost there business struggling to keep there home and has family with mental health concerns to top it off.

We all need to consider others in these stressful times. As a country we have always helped a mate when they needed it - bloody sad to see this virus causing separation and lack of empathy as many want to divide us based on their vaccine views, whether someone wears a mask while walking their dog or questioning if they really needed to buy weed killer at Bunnings as it wasn’t essential.

No one knows the luggage some people are carrying so think about that before throwing insults.

Take care brother and thanks for your kind words.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 27, 2021, 12:58:31 am
EB, has there been any advise on the rules of quarantine if exposed once the state opens. Surely not the same 14 day quarantine is going to apply if your fully vaccinated?

Everyone concedes opening up will have case numbers heading north so the chances of being near live with or at a tier one site is going to be a much higher probability then we currently have. Hopefully if your fully vaccinated that rule doesn’t apply.
Shawny...I'm not across the quarantine likely changes, but my personal opinion is I'd be surprised if Dan was to lower the number of days that quickly and now Gladys has scrapped Freedom day I reckon its going to be a slow transition in NSW as well.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 27, 2021, 07:58:45 am
Wrong!

https://www2.health.vic.gov.au/ageing-and-aged-care/residential-aged-care
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on September 27, 2021, 09:27:47 am
https://www2.health.vic.gov.au/ageing-and-aged-care/residential-aged-care

You didn’t read what you linked?

Quote
Residential aged care is for older people who can no longer live at home. Services provide continuous supported care ranging from help with daily tasks and personal care to 24-hour nursing care. People wanting to find out more information about residential aged care should visit the My Aged Care website or call the My Aged Care contact centre on 1800 200 422.

The Commonwealth Government is responsible for the provision of residential aged care services in Victoria. This includes regulation for quality of care standards and funding under the Aged Care Act 1997.

Residential aged care services are delivered by a range of providers including not-for-profit, private and public sector organisations.

The Victorian Government plays a key role in residential aged care through its funding contribution and support for high quality care in public sector residential aged care services (PSRACS).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 27, 2021, 09:47:00 am
I'd probably prefer real world data. The problem with anecdotal evidence is that it usually comes from a small sample. For instance, if you listen to anti-vax or vaccine-sceptical health workers, you'll probably get a pretty skewed version of reality. Vaccine mandates are the way to go, even if some health workers will fall by the wayside. But I'd be happy for the Govt. to throw some money into raising staffing levels.
The real world data is from hospital administrators beholding to the government's who fund them and who set targets for them to achieve and who lie to the public to protect their funding and cover up mistakes to prevent expensive payouts.
I'll stick with the people on the front line who do the work..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 27, 2021, 10:18:45 am
The real world data is from hospital administrators beholding to the government's who fund them and who set targets for them to achieve and who lie to the public to protect their funding and cover up mistakes to prevent expensive payouts.
I'll stick with the people on the front line who do the work..
It's not a big conspiracy, the workers just see their own little section and their wider/global opinions are coloured by rumours and whispers of disenfranchised and sometimes paranoid associates.

It's the same in every big business, look at construction now held ransom by a clear minority, health is no different!

It's a weird nexus, because at the moment "The Man" has less control than ever before, not being on the ground in the trenches has greatly diminished the influence of corporate psychopaths. Yet the whisper network is worse than ever before, because that is the way the network works best not because things are better or worse than before. Now the power of "The Man" has moved into the very loud voice of the previously isolated radical who have gained a voice!

Finally, it's human nature to need someone to blame, the bad is always someone's fault, "Someone did it to me!" It's never just an outcome driven by circumstances.

Just like Dan's fault for lockdowns, Big Pharma corruption banning Ivermectin, the China virus, the Wuhan Lab, it's all finger-pointing!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 27, 2021, 11:34:53 am
It's not a big conspiracy, the workers just see their own little section and their wider/global opinions are coloured by rumours and whispers of disenfranchised and sometimes paranoid associates.

It's the same in every big business, look at construction now held ransom by a clear minority, health is no different!

It's a weird nexus, because at the moment "The Man" has less control than ever before, not being on the ground in the trenches has greatly diminished the influence of corporate psychopaths. Yet the whisper network is worse than ever before, because that is the way the network works best not because things are better or worse than before. Now the power of "The Man" has moved into the very loud voice of the previously isolated radical who have gained a voice!

Finally, it's human nature to need someone to blame, the bad is always someone's fault, "Someone did it to me!" It's never just a outcome driven by circumstances.

Just like Dan's fault for lockdowns, Big Pharma corruption banning Ivermectin, the China virus, the Wuhan Lab, it's all finger-pointing!
Nothing to do with conspiracy's.....Its the real world from the people doing the work.
The look at the wider picture and ignoring the workers at the frontline is just a lame excuse for having your head in the sand and not wanting to confront the truth and blindly support the Governments misleading lies that everything is ok.
Health is not a priority in Australia and the system is failing because it isnt being supported, we will become a replica of the system in the USA and only the wealthy will receive decent care,  that will be the bottom line.
CoVid has just exposed the cracks in a system that was falling apart already......
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 27, 2021, 03:45:51 pm
The health system is indeed stuffed in the US ... diabetics die there every day as they can't even afford insulin.  Fifth grade.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on September 27, 2021, 03:55:11 pm
Thanks for your perspective, Shawny.

The playground thing punished kids for parents taking far too many liberties.  They were often full with organised catch ups, no masks or social distancing - not what was supposed to happen, which is why they were banned until the political heat got too much. 

On another note, the guy who helped organise the protests wants his legal costs covered.  Not exactly taking responsibility for your actions, is it?  I wonder how much he's going to raise, now that it's been publicised.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 27, 2021, 04:00:42 pm
Thanks for your perspective, Shawny.

The playground thing punished kids for parents taking far too many liberties.  They were often full with organised catch ups, no masks or social distancing - not what was supposed to happen, which is why they were banned until the political heat got too much.
This is my problem with it, as I see it many of the parents are using the kids as a backdoor to freedom, walking around chatting with mates, sipping from empty disposable coffee cups, filling the same from water fountains, and pretending to eat never ending apples or doughnuts so they can remain mask less. It shows how little these individuals think of everybody else!

On another note, the guy who helped organise the protests wants his legal costs covered.  Not exactly taking responsibility for your actions, is it?  I wonder how much he's going to raise, now that it's been publicised.
I doubt he'll profit from it but you never know, he'll get some support but not as much as he thinks, there are so many trying on the same tactic it's become a scam!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 27, 2021, 05:49:35 pm
I must say I don't really care if right-wingers rip off other right-wingers. That's the game on that side of the fence. The rich guys somehow persuade the poor guys to give them money. Best example is Trump. He went from ripping off property tycoon wannabees by enrolling them in "Trump University" and his most recent gig is to monetise the Big Lie, getting average Joes & Janes to contribute to his "legal fighting fund" (which he doesn't have to spend on lawyers). He even came up with an admittedly ingenious tactic of hiding a check box on the donation page so unwitting small dollar donors who thought they were making a one-off contribution ended up making weekly payments. The deplorables are just sheep who are going to be shorn. If they aren't shorn by 1 guy, sure enough they'll be shorn by another. Grifters gonna grift.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 28, 2021, 10:26:23 am
There's hope there's finally a pill which can treat Covid. Surprise, surprise, it ain't Ivermectin. These pills are anti-viral: they work against viruses ... which Ivermectin doesn't do.

A pill to treat Covid-19: 'We're talking about a return to, maybe, normal life' (https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/27/health/covid-treatment-pill-khn-partner/index.html), CNN

Quote
"Oral antivirals have the potential to not only curtail the duration of one's covid-19 syndrome, but also have the potential to limit transmission to people in your household if you are sick," said Timothy Sheahan, a virologist at the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill who has helped pioneer these therapies.

Antivirals are already essential treatments for other viral infections, including hepatitis C and HIV. One of the best known is Tamiflu, the widely prescribed pill that can shorten the duration of influenza and reduce the risk of hospitalization if given quickly.

The medications, developed to treat and prevent viral infections in people and animals, work differently depending on the type. But they can be engineered to boost the immune system to fight infection, block receptors so viruses can't enter healthy cells, or lower the amount of active virus in the body.

At least three promising antivirals for covid are being tested in clinical trials, with results expected as soon as late fall or winter, said Carl Dieffenbach, director of the Division of AIDS at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, who is overseeing antiviral development.

"I think that we will have answers as to what these pills are capable of within the next several months," Dieffenbach said.

The top contender is a medication from Merck & Co. and Ridgeback Biotherapeutics called molnupiravir, Dieffenbach said. This is the product being tested in the Kellys' Seattle trial. Two others include a candidate from Pfizer, known as PF-07321332, and AT-527, an antiviral produced by Roche and Atea Pharmaceuticals.

They work by interfering with the virus's ability to replicate in human cells. In the case of molnupiravir, the enzyme that copies the viral genetic material is forced to make so many mistakes that the virus can't reproduce. That, in turn, reduces the patient's viral load, shortening infection time and preventing the kind of dangerous immune response that can cause serious illness or death.

So far, only one antiviral drug, remdesivir, has been approved to treat covid. But it is given intravenously to patients ill enough to be hospitalized, and is not intended for early, widespread use. By contrast, the top contenders under study can be packaged as pills.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 28, 2021, 11:24:31 am
There are two big problems with anti-virals as far as I can tell.

Firstly, most work best when given very early, that means a massive increase in screening/testing for early signs of infection.

Secondly, the few being tested at the moment are horrendously expensive, meaning doctors are hesitant to prescribe them.

The most recent drugs approved cost above $2500 per course of treatment like Sotrovimab(Intravenous), this new Molnupiravir drug greatly reduces that cost but is still about $1000 per treatment. Still that is at least 1/10th the cost of basic hospitalisation.

The trick seems to be combine the use of these drugs with vaccination, vaccination slows the development of disease enough that you can get a detection in time to treat with the anti-virals which then greatly reduces hospitalisations.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 28, 2021, 01:22:47 pm
They can be used sparingly. When someone tests positive, they can be administered to their close contacts to break the chains of transmission. And if we end up having cheap and accurate home testing, treating the infected person early becomes more viable.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 28, 2021, 01:25:29 pm
They can be used sparingly. When someone tests positive, they can be administered to their close contacts to break the chains of transmission. And if we end up having cheap and accurate home testing, treating the infected person early becomes more viable.
Do you think this also a tell as to why Merck never bought into the vaccine development, maybe this drug has been near completion for some time, and very good long acting vaccines would make it obsolete?
 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 28, 2021, 01:34:08 pm
I would have thought the best strategy was for pharmaceutical companies to cover the field in aggregate rather than every company having a finger in every pie. Same thing with AIDS, but in reverse order. The retrovirals were created first and the search for a vaccine goes on.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 29, 2021, 12:03:57 pm
There was an epidemiologist weeks ago who warned that the worst was yet to come for NSW, with deaths peaking in Oct, Gladys Burythemall even whispered Darth Vader style much the same a couple of weeks back.

Today Sept 29th in NSW there are 15 deaths, what is going to be the peak? :o

Murdoch's media must be raptured, they can badger the politicians to shorten the dose intervals then get a 2nd crack at ratings complaining about all the later deaths and what little has been done about them!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 29, 2021, 08:00:43 pm
So do fully vaccinated citizens fall into the same basket as unvaccinated when we hit the target percentages and the state opens up regarding quarantining rules?

I would have thought the vaccine being as successful as we are told is means the rules wont apply to the fully vaccinated but the word im getting is quarantine will be the same rules for everyone. 

Opening up is undoubtedly going to increase the cases and inturn exposure sites so the odds of being exposed are highly likely therefore the risk of having to quarantine will be a hell of lot higher then it is now. Likely that everyone will be exposed in the first few months and if even double vaccinated are going to be sent to quarantine for a full 14 days seems like this is something many haven't considered.

Hard to book a holiday and plan much which the threat of quarantine which can drop like a hammer at any moment. And this time around there is no more government grants and kickbacks softening the blow so watch for the anger once people realise we are still all in the same basket which was not how getting vaccinated and having our freedom back was sold to us.  

Please someone tell me i have this wrong?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 29, 2021, 09:03:11 pm
There was an epidemiologist weeks ago who warned that the worst was yet to come for NSW, with deaths peaking in Oct, Gladys Burythemall even whispered Darth Vader style much the same a couple of weeks back.

Today Sept 29th in NSW there are 15 deaths, what is going to be the peak? :o

Murdoch's media must be raptured, they can badger the politicians to shorten the dose intervals then get a 2nd crack at ratings complaining about all the later deaths and what little has been done about them!
Check out the latest Doherty modelling and those low and high seed tables...if those figures come to fruition the heath system will have collapsed....Lockdowns will continue in a medium format IMO even with 70-80 vaccination rates of over 16's.
https://www.doherty.edu.au/uploads/content_doc/DOHERTY_MODELLING_INTERIM_REPORT_TO_NATIONAL_CABINET_17TH_SEPTEMBER_2021.pdf
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on September 29, 2021, 09:46:33 pm
Check out the latest Doherty modelling and those low and high seed tables...if those figures come to fruition the heath system will have collapsed....Lockdowns will continue in a medium format IMO even with 70-80 vaccination rates of over 16's.
https://www.doherty.edu.au/uploads/content_doc/DOHERTY_MODELLING_INTERIM_REPORT_TO_NATIONAL_CABINET_17TH_SEPTEMBER_2021.pdf


Was near the northern hospital today and counted 12 ambos in a row lined up waiting to drop patients off. Never seen that before and reckon the system is already bursting at the seems.

Those 4000 plus icu beds would have come in handy wouldn’t they. Instead if numbers predicated eventuate as you rightly point out we will pull further ahead in the longest lockdown place on earth regardless of vaccination numbers. The narrative like many aspects of this pandemic that we just need to get vaccinated to return to a normal life is another lie.

Disgusting to think these so called leaders had over 18 months to prepare the health system and as usual they do sfa but talk and then point the fingers elsewhere and find scapegoats at every opportunity when questioned. And while I’m venting the stupidity of federal government to announce that funding will cease once vaccination targets are met makes little sense unless for some reason they want the vaccination numbers to slow up.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 29, 2021, 10:36:58 pm
Was near the northern hospital today and counted 12 ambos in a row lined up waiting to drop patients off. Never seen that before and reckon the system is already bursting at the seems.


Those 4000 plus icu beds would have come in handy wouldn’t they. Instead if numbers predicated eventuate as you rightly point out we will pull further ahead in the longest lockdown place on earth regardless of vaccination numbers. The narrative like many aspects of this pandemic that we just need to get vaccinated to return to a normal life is another lie.

Disgusting to think these so called leaders had over 18 months to prepare the health system and as usual they do sfa but talk and then point the fingers elsewhere and find scapegoats at every opportunity when questioned. And while I’m venting the stupidity of federal government to announce that funding will cease once vaccination targets are met makes little sense unless for some reason they want the vaccination numbers to slow up.

Yep 4000 beds means more new hospitals unless you are turning other facilities into hospitals and of course you need staff.
Was never going to happen, its all been shambolic and normal life is a long way off and you are so right about preparation.
The time to build and implement was after the 1st wave, China built several new hospitals and real quick because they knew CoVid would be back and our leaders did nothing of significance like that.
Of course its just a few ambos in their own area whinging and everything is fine....😉
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-29/victoria-ambulance-hospital-health-system-covid-strain/100499266



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 29, 2021, 10:39:44 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/us-panel-backs-covid-19-boosters-only-for-elderly-high-risk-20210918-p58ss4.html

In a surprising turn, the panel rejected, by a vote of 16-2, boosters for almost everyone. Members cited a lack of safety data on extra doses and also raised doubts about the value of mass boosters, rather than ones targeted to specific groups.
Heard Joe Biden had his booster today...not sure if he knew what he was being jabbed for....bet he didnt know he was a lab rat for that safety data either.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on September 29, 2021, 11:33:08 pm
Four CFMEU staff have tested positive to COVID after last week's riots and many others are in quarantine.  It looks like ignoring social distancing and not wearing masks in the open air is a good way to spread the Delta variant.  I wonder how many other rioters and their close contacts have symptoms and are not getting tested.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on September 29, 2021, 11:59:21 pm
Was near the northern hospital today and counted 12 ambos in a row lined up waiting to drop patients off. Never seen that before and reckon the system is already bursting at the seems.

Those 4000 plus icu beds would have come in handy wouldn’t they. Instead if numbers predicated eventuate as you rightly point out we will pull further ahead in the longest lockdown place on earth regardless of vaccination numbers. The narrative like many aspects of this pandemic that we just need to get vaccinated to return to a normal life is another lie.

Disgusting to think these so called leaders had over 18 months to prepare the health system and as usual they do sfa but talk and then point the fingers elsewhere and find scapegoats at every opportunity when questioned. And while I’m venting the stupidity of federal government to announce that funding will cease once vaccination targets are met makes little sense unless for some reason they want the vaccination numbers to slow up.


It really doesn't matter how many beds and how much equipment you have if you do not have the staff.

I saw an interview with a public hospital specialist the other day who was asked a question relating to numbers of beds and staffing levels.  He said that each covid patient in ICU needed 24 hour attention by two covid trained nurses per shift - a total of six nurses working eight hour shifts. He added that the work was exhausting as the nurses also had to turn the patients in their beds.

He was asked about training and said that an experienced nurse needed an additional 12 months training to work in covid wards but because of the additional workload imposed on staff since covid patients began arriving in hospitals last year there was not enough time to set aside for training.

Another Melbourne public hospital specialist interviewed tonight said his colleagues in Sydney have told him the position is far worse in Sydney hospitals than the public is being told, and staff are exhausted.

Given our hospitals are following hard on the heels of those in NSW it is easy to imagine the collapse of public hospitals in both states when we open up and restrictions ease.





Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2021, 12:11:09 am
It really doesn't matter how many beds and how much equipment you have if you do not have the staff.

I saw an interview with a public hospital specialist the other day who was asked a question relating to numbers of beds and staffing levels.  He said that each covid patient in ICU needed 24 hour attention by two covid trained nurses per shift - a total of six nurses working eight hour shifts. He added that the work was exhausting as the nurses also had to turn the patients in their beds.

He was asked about training and said that an experienced nurse needed an additional 12 months training to work in covid wards but because of the additional workload imposed on staff since covid patients began arriving in hospitals last year there was not enough time to set aside for training.

Another Melbourne public hospital specialist interviewed tonight said his colleagues in Sydney have told him the position is far worse in Sydney hospitals than the public is being told, and staff are exhausted.

Given our hospitals are following hard on the heels of those in NSW it is easy to imagine the collapse of public hospitals in both states when we open up and restrictions ease.






Yep staff are the key and ICU training is 12 months with or without the Covid training. The RNs who do it also tend to be the best of breed both academic wise as well as practically so it's not for everyone. With pay levels not that much better you are also relying on the most dedicated and who will work double shifts, you don't get many agency fill ins who are ICU trained.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 30, 2021, 04:27:11 am
Criminal negligence.  Just wait until this morning's figures are released.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 30, 2021, 08:37:27 am
1438 new cases .... what a stuff up
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 30, 2021, 08:53:48 am
Four CFMEU staff have tested positive to COVID after last week's riots and many others are in quarantine.  It looks like ignoring social distancing and not wearing masks in the open air is a good way to spread the Delta variant.  I wonder how many other rioters and their close contacts have symptoms and are not getting tested.



They were inside the building.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 30, 2021, 08:55:24 am
Lucky we didn't mock NSW.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 30, 2021, 09:05:23 am
Those who wanted to let it rip are getting their wish. But as the old saying goes, be careful what you wish for as you might just get it. And it won’t be pretty.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 30, 2021, 09:10:53 am
Those who wanted to let it rip are getting their wish. But as the old saying goes, be careful what you wish for as you might just get it. And it won’t be pretty.

Yep, I know a family who has it. Mother and son are the sickest they have ever been by far and they aren't in the hospital figures.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 30, 2021, 09:11:05 am
By the way, the NSW vaccine mandate for health workers comes into force tomorrow. We’ll be able to see just how many workers still refuse to vaccinate. Even if that number is substantial, getting rid of the anti-vaxxers is well worth it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2021, 09:24:35 am
A grad certificate in critical care is 11k at Uni.
A critical care nurse(ICU) gets about $50-60 a week more only, most have to pay parking of around $25 a day. Its also a job where you work a lot of double shifts as their are few agency backups and you can't leave the unit a nurse down. The Government won't fund enough spots at Uni either so most have to pay the 11k. Good luck retaining what's left after Covid burns them all out...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 30, 2021, 09:34:32 am
A grad certificate in critical care is 11k at Uni.
A critical care nurse(ICU) gets about $50-60 a week more only, most have to pay parking of around $25 a day. Its also a job where you work a lot of double shifts as their are few agency backups and you can't leave the unit a nurse down. The Government won't fund enough spots at Uni either so most have to pay the 11k. Good luck retaining what's left after Covid burns them all out...


When my kids were at the RCH I was shocked the nurses didn't get discounted parking, only the night shift did.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 30, 2021, 09:58:22 am
A grad certificate in critical care is 11k at Uni.
A critical care nurse(ICU) gets about $50-60 a week more only, most have to pay parking of around $25 a day. Its also a job where you work a lot of double shifts as their are few agency backups and you can't leave the unit a nurse down. The Government won't fund enough spots at Uni either so most have to pay the 11k. Good luck retaining what's left after Covid burns them all out...


EB1, I just hit the roof when I read this. Nurses charged for parking! FFS.

Generally speaking I confess to being angered and flabbergasted at how we so poorly remunerate nurses and allied health care workers. P1sses me off, to be candid. Likewise, educators/teachers. Not to mention police and other emergency workers. In a just world these people would be paid substantially more.

I don't begrudge other professions that are paid highly, though some salaries and bonuses boggle the mind when considering the community contribution, or the lack, thereof. I feel a social justice rant coming on, so I'll stop here.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2021, 10:24:44 am
Some of the nurses do runners and will follow another car out quickly. Some of the parking attendents let them through too if they are regulars but management are watching more closely now.
The other alternatives are park a distance away and walk which a lot do but then take your chances walking to your car in the dark late at night and have a nutter follow you.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 30, 2021, 10:26:46 am
A grad certificate in critical care is 11k at Uni.
A critical care nurse(ICU) gets about $50-60 a week more only, most have to pay parking of around $25 a day. Its also a job where you work a lot of double shifts as their are few agency backups and you can't leave the unit a nurse down. The Government won't fund enough spots at Uni either so most have to pay the 11k. Good luck retaining what's left after Covid burns them all out...


Yet Andrews accepted a pay rise.  As did all the other political trash of course.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 30, 2021, 11:06:06 am
Some of the nurses do runners and will follow another car out quickly. Some of the parking attendents let them through too if they are regulars but management are watching more closely now.
The other alternatives are park a distance away and walk which a lot do but then take your chances walking to your car in the dark late at night and have a nutter follow you.

 :o  :-X
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on September 30, 2021, 11:11:34 am
They were inside the building.

Really?

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/cfmeu-outbreak-president-tests-positive-setka-in-isolation-20210929-p58vp6.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 30, 2021, 11:20:04 am
When my kids were at the RCH I was shocked the nurses didn't get discounted parking, only the night shift did.
Yep, I was at a CBD hospital recently, I couldn't believe the staff and nurses we forced to park kilometres away to get all day parking at a reasonable rate or free. All the parking around the hospital was 1, 2 or 4 hrs at $4/hr which is useless for staff, and Wilson effectively charge you $18/day provided your are in before a certain time and out after a certain time, if not it gets bumped to $65/day, the crazy entry and exit time forces workers to hang around the area to save $50/day on parking. So most park far away and walk.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 30, 2021, 11:21:41 am
Really?

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/cfmeu-outbreak-president-tests-positive-setka-in-isolation-20210929-p58vp6.html

Yeah really. The office was packed with Setka's bikie mates.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2021, 11:22:08 am
https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/decisionssigned/html/2021fwcfb6015.htm?fbclid=IwAR2KXUD0eLLC7cn7HX0d9MtLJDE6HiZagLoForUJHjeVIblHZyd3wQrDdm0

Interesting test case regarding the firing of a admin worker at a nursing home for vaccination refusal....

Final comments

[179] Research in the context of COVID-19 has shown that many who are ‘vaccine-hesitant’ are well educated, work in the health care industry and have questions about how effective the vaccines are in stopping transmission, whether they are safe to take during pregnancy, or if they affect fertility. 37 A far safer and more democratic approach to addressing vaccine hesitancy, and therefore increasing voluntary vaccination uptake, lies in better education, addressing specific and often legitimate concerns that people may hold, and promoting genuine informed consent. It does not lie in censoring differing opinions or removing rights and civil liberties that are fundamental in a democratic nation. It certainly does not lie in the use of highly coercive, undemocratic and unethical mandates.

[180] The statements by politicians that those who are not vaccinated are a threat to public health and should be “locked out of society” and denied the ability to work are not measures to protect public health. They are not about public health and not justified because they do not address the actual risk of COVID. These measures can only be about punishing those who choose not to be vaccinated. If the purpose of the PHOs is genuinely to reduce the spread of COVID, there is no basis for locking out people who do not have COVID, which is easily established by a rapid antigen test. Conversely, a vaccinated person who contracts COVID should be required to isolate until such time as they have recovered.

[181] Blanket rules, such as mandating vaccinations for everyone across a whole profession or industry regardless of the actual risk, fail the tests of proportionality, necessity and reasonableness. It is more than the absolute minimum necessary to combat the crisis and cannot be justified on health grounds. It is a lazy and fundamentally flawed approach to risk management and should be soundly rejected by courts when challenged.

[182] All Australians should vigorously oppose the introduction of a system of medical apartheid and segregation in Australia. It is an abhorrent concept and is morally and ethically wrong, and the anthesis of our democratic way of life and everything we value.

[183] Australians should also vigorously oppose the ongoing censorship of any views that question the current policies regarding COVID. Science is no longer science if it a person is not allowed to question it.

[184] Finally, all Australians, including those who hold or are suspected of holding “anti-vaccination sentiments”, are entitled to the protection of our laws, including the protections afforded by the Fair Work Act. In this regard, one can only hope that the Majority Decision is recognised as an anomaly and not followed by others.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 30, 2021, 11:28:31 am
I have to say that if I were in charge of running a campaign to improve conditions for nurses, I’d also focus on things like parking fees rather than a proposed rise in pay. On its face, it appears unjust that nurses have to pay to work.

But this is not an isolated unfairness. The tax system seeks to preclude or dissuade workers from claiming deductions for expenses they must make to work. All those thousands of people who had to travel into the city to their work couldn’t deduct travel expenses and few employers paid for those expenses. While the ATO saved some pennies on those non-deductions, a flood of non-taxed profits left the country by simple accounting tricks like multinational companies being able to deduct consultancy fees paid to subsidiaries in tax havens in Monaco and the Cayman Islands. And while the Federal Govt ruthlessly sought to claw back JobKeeper payments to individuals, they were proud to say companies could keep their payments even if their profits had trebled during Covid shutdowns. All of this is unfair but that won’t change.

Then you have the problem of FBT. What are the implications for hospitals if they provide free parking for staff? If they have to pay top dollar for that parking to the Federal Govt, it would make more sense to increase pay rather than give fringe benefits.

Has the need to pay parking been factored into salaries via negotiations with Unions? You’d think so, but of course that doesn’t prevent this issue being the spearhead of a pressure campaign.

Then you have the fact that the benefits of free parking wouldn’t be felt evenly by all nurses. Some would be able to make their way to work cheaply because they live close to work or public transport is practical for them or they can ride bikes or motorbikes and avoid parking fees. Or because they work at smaller hospitals or medical centres, they already can find free parking.  They would prefer pay increases rather than accept lower salaries in exchange for free parking.

Do hospitals enter into separate workplace agreements with some freedom to address particular parking issues or are agreements industry-wide? Are parking fees part of the hospital revenues or are they paid to private operators?

I would certainly be supportive of improving conditions generally for nurses. The trick is finding that money given the Federal Govt won’t bankroll it and the Victorian Govt has few other ways of raising revenue. Maybe a short-term Covid-bonus might be worthwhile in retaining and recruiting staff while the Covid crush hits the hospital system.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 30, 2021, 11:29:36 am
Not sure any individual is entitled to physically harm others through deliberate invocation of their personal preferences.

There is a huge difference between someone who legitimately cannot be vaccinated and someone who can but refuses vaccination.

People who legitimately cannot be vaccinated and totally reliant on those that can be vaccinated will be vaccinated.

People who legitimately cannot be vaccinated are also the silent victims of those who can be vaccinated but refuse to be vaccinated.

The anti-vaccination stance is not symmetrical in rights, because it leads to more harm than the pro-vaccination movement.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 30, 2021, 11:31:04 am
Then you have the problem of FBT. What are the implications for hospitals if they provide free parking for staff? If they have to pay top dollar for that parking to the Federal Govt, it would make more sense to increase pay rather than give fringe benefits.
Hospitals are primarily run by bean counters, they extract profit from parking and get paid a bonus for doing so, they have no desire to provide it for free!

Focus on triple baseline ideology, reward the bean counters only for improving all aspects of operation and maximising benefits for both the hospital and for it's staff, and the equation will change. Do not reward bean counters for robbing the poor!

In Germany where a post war mandate means staff have to form part of the business executive/board, things run much much better because nobody has the power to profit at the expense of others. It the primary reason for the strong drive in it's economy, everyone profits from improvements.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 30, 2021, 11:46:23 am
As a health care eployee, the parking situation is as follows:

Everyone (CEO to cleaner) can elect to be charged for parking.  Salary sacrificed pre-tax.  The real world cost is actually quite small.  The problem is capacity and access and that's where it becomes an issue that is not easily solved.

If everyone wants one, there isn't enough available and there is a wait list to get car parking access. (thats my health service anyway).

There are staff electing not to have parking, but there is a sense of entitlement to it, and refusal to pay for it.  Thing is, we all pay for it out of our taxes anyway. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 30, 2021, 11:48:52 am
As a health care eployee, the parking situation is as follows:
Great to see you back and about!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2021, 11:52:20 am
Some hospitals offer permanent full time day shift nurses a discount on parking, usually about $4. Councils make a fortune out of local parking and fines as well so are loathe to help by removing restrictions or offering permits. There were suggestions that security guards would be used to escort staff to cars parked further away at night but that seems to have gone through to the keeper.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2021, 11:54:47 am
Great to see you back and about!
x2
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 30, 2021, 12:00:02 pm
On a personal level, I left this forum for various reasons, and have returned for my own reasons too which Im not going to go too heavily into here, but I can see that people continue to see things through their own myopic lenses, rather than looking at the bigger picture here.

The standard you walk past is the one you are willing to accept.

No jab no job, is an abysmal way to run things, and on a societal level, we need to think really hard about what we are doing to people.  From a health service perspective, they cannot have un vaccinated employees running around the place either so it becomes a real conundrum and simply mandating it shows a government that is out of touch with its society, and anyone advocating no jab no job, should take a really good hard look at themselves. 

When you start to resemble certain dictatorships that have occurred throughout history, it sets a really dangerous precedent for society as a whole.  I have not been a fan of people and their opinions on these subjects for the last couple of months. 

What I see playing out publically is downright appalling.  Many of these people are acting in misguided ways to achieve whatever goals they are trying to, but I struggle to see any real common sense in any of this stuff.

Vicpol, to serve and protect.  That includes democratic rights of the populace you are employed by.

The tradies have not covered themselves in glory (the attack on the journalists abhorrent to say the least) kicking dogs, ridiculous, and defending the indefensible.  Its downright outrageous and Ive had a gutful.  We are in the midst of a pandemic and its bloody serious, and people are too busy being weaponised by political motivations, and not fighting simply for their rights.  Stop being tools.

Finally, victorian and federal government.  This petty and draconian approach to shutting down conversations is ridiculous and actually welcomes the exact reaction you are fighting against.  Have the conversations, and dont let the media drive it.  Ive heard more information about all subjects covid by comedians on the ABC than I have from accredited doctors and politicians.  Where are the think tank discussions broadcast on TV that go in depth about the precise modelling you are basing your restrictions on?  Why isnt there more information out there, encouraging people to seek medical advise regarding the vaccine and NOT TO FOLLOW FING SOCIAL MEDIA!!!

I have similarly had enough of people claiming a lot about everything.  Simple equation.  You have questions about vaccination?  go talk to health professionals.  Get your answers, and then determine the appropriate course of action.  The government have absolutely not provided any real information to people here about the vaccines, their manufacture, where they get.  If you have to go searching to find it, you have stuffed this up. 

Really really shocked that we have descended to the general level of lunacy that i see perpetuated as truths these days across society and have had a gutful of all the politicised rhetoric I hear.  This is serious, or its crap, but either way, treat the public with the respect they deserve.

RANT OVER.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 30, 2021, 12:00:13 pm
A guy I work with just got a call from his wife saying their doctor vaccinated their 8 year old daughter.  His wife asked if she was too young but the doctor said that she is old enough. The doctor called her half an hour later saying they made a mistake and they have to make some calls and she might have to go to hospital for monitoring.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 30, 2021, 12:02:32 pm
Thanks for the welcome back I have missed the place, and have spent significant time post operation at home, so it shows just how serious I was about having a break. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 30, 2021, 12:03:55 pm
Good to see you back Thry.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 30, 2021, 12:10:59 pm
https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/decisionssigned/html/2021fwcfb6015.htm?fbclid=IwAR2KXUD0eLLC7cn7HX0d9MtLJDE6HiZagLoForUJHjeVIblHZyd3wQrDdm0

Interesting test case regarding the firing of a admin worker at a nursing home for vaccination refusal....
What you fail to point out is that the comments you quoted were by the dissenting member. The majority ruled against the worker’s appeal and therefore ruled that the mandate was enforceable. They also lashed her crapulent “medical experts”. Surely you aren’t a believer that the minority rules?

More specifically, I hope you aren’t against the mandate in the health industry. As you point out, the lot of Nurses isn’t easy and eliminating the worry about unvaccinated co-workers increasing the risk to others is at least one thing we can do to make their lot more bearable.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on September 30, 2021, 12:20:15 pm
Welcome back Thry. :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 30, 2021, 12:27:51 pm
I think it's perfectly reasonable that certain careers require certain minimum standards and qualifications. For example, if you look after the aged or vulnerable then I think it's fair you should be well trained and vaccinated to prevent harm to your charges.

to me part of the problem is this gross generalisations, no vaccine doesn't mean "not any job", unless it is globally applied. It doesn't have to be globally applied but it's the lazy way to police the policy, so that is what happens on the basis that we are all equal, but all are not equal and never will be, all being equal is a logical fallacy.

For example, in the construction industry, there are jobs that hardly see someone come within 10m of someone else all day, and that permit the sterilisation of your work environment between shifts, like many drivers or plant operators like those on cranes or forks. So no vaccination no job is not globally applicable, but you then have to accept such positions might be limited, so by the very nature of the job, all is not equal.

I've a friend who's daughter highlights some of the hypocrisy of the vaccination choice / anti-vaccination movement. Historically she is anti-vaccination, and she is now pregnant and refuses to be vaccinated out of concerns for the baby. But she has told her family, parents, siblings and cousins, they cannot visit her unless they are vaccinated against both COVID and Whooping Cough. How long must they obey this inequality, forever and ever and ever?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 30, 2021, 12:35:04 pm
Quote
1. Position
The RACGP:
  • supports mandatory COVID-19 vaccination for healthcare workers
  • proposes this requirement includes general practitioners (GPs), practice nurses, reception staff and other members of the practice team undertaking patient facing roles as appropriate
  • highlights the potential benefits of widespread vaccination amongst healthcare workers, including:
  • protection of healthcare workers, who by nature of their work and interaction with the community are at greater risk of contracting COVID-19
  • reduced transmission of COVID-19 from healthcare workers to patients and other team members
  • reducing disruption to health services when healthcare workers are infected with COVID-19
  • considers that vaccination of healthcare workers supports the medical profession’s duty of care and builds vaccine confidence in the community.
https://www.racgp.org.au/advocacy/position-statements/view-all-position-statements/clinical-and-practice-management/mandatory-covid-19-vaccination-healthcare-workers (https://www.racgp.org.au/advocacy/position-statements/view-all-position-statements/clinical-and-practice-management/mandatory-covid-19-vaccination-healthcare-workers)[/list]

Apologies for the problems with the bullets: bullets 4-6 are supposed to be indented, but that’s beyond me.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on September 30, 2021, 12:44:37 pm
x2

x 3

Now where's GTC? :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2021, 01:06:55 pm
What you fail to point out is that the comments you quoted were by the dissenting member. The majority ruled against the worker’s appeal and therefore ruled that the mandate was enforceable. They also lashed her crapulent “medical experts”. Surely you aren’t a believer that the minority rules?

More specifically, I hope you aren’t against the mandate in the health industry. As you point out, the lot of Nurses isn’t easy and eliminating the worry about unvaccinated co-workers increasing the risk to others is at least one thing we can do to make their lot more bearable.
My daughter is a vaxed RN, three of her friends who are senior RNs with specialities are not vaxed and you want to fire them and  replace them with what? How many lives is that going to cost, there needs to be a way to still employ highly skilled nurses unvaxed and not have them leave the job.
I don't want a mandate that sacks highly skilled staff replaces them with div2 enrolled trainees from parts unknown looking for an easy way to get to get residency and burns the remaining skilled nurses who have to cover for them....there is enough of that happening already.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on September 30, 2021, 01:10:51 pm
Thanks for the welcome back I have missed the place, and have spent significant time post operation at home, so it shows just how serious I was about having a break. 

Welcome home, 3 Leos. I trust all in hospital went well and you'll soon be fit and dangerous.

As I've mentioned before, from a mental health/psychological viewpoint, never underestimate the power of human fear. Something politicians and others in positions of power know and capitalise on to manipulate others to their own selfish, personal benefit. But many of us get sucked into these games and divisiveness. Fear becomes an incredible motivator and creates all manner of biases and ignorances. Also breeds intolerance. To a large extent fear has its roots in something known as 'death anxiety.' Prof Sheldon Solomon has been providing heavily researched material on this phenomenon for almost 50 years. Crudely summarised, with human consciousness comes the awareness of self, including the awareness that each one of us will die. Many folks, vulnerable to this fear, live in denial and become victim to all manner of unhealthy avoidances and manipulations.

Already many, many folks who've had the jab (or two) are developing a class distinction from those who haven't, for whatever reason. Remember, there are plenty of folks who do not get the jab due to health/legitimate reasons.

Already many businesses are telling other businesses they deal with that they will not allow unvaccinated sales people to enter their premises. HR execs throughout the country, indeed many parts of the world, are now grappling with this. A pub in Sydney put up a sign saying they happily accept unvaccinated people... only to be boycotted by vaccinated people whose numbers are far greater - almost sent them broke.

This will be a social and moral dilemma to play out over the coming months and sadly, will be hijacked by politicians and extremist media to peddle their own divisive, exclusive agenda. Troubling times.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 30, 2021, 01:22:52 pm
My daughter is a vaxed RN, three of her friends who are senior RNs with specialities are not vaxed and you want to fire them and  replace them with what? How many lives is that going to cost, there needs to be a way to still employ highly skilled nurses unvaxed and not have them leave the job.
I don't want a mandate that sacks highly skilled staff replaces them with div2 enrolled trainees from parts unknown looking for an easy way to get to get residency and burns the remaining skilled nurses who have to cover for them....there is enough of that happening already.
Chances are they won’t be fired as they’ll vaccinate. They’ve found in the US that staff were happy to talk tough with pollsters but few followed through. The higher the qualifications, the more difficult it is to walk away.

And if a few unvaccinated walk away, the benefits outweigh the costs.

By the way, let’s not lose sight of the fact that this is not just a Victorian policy. It’s just about in force in NSW and WA is doing the same. And it’ll be hard for unvaccinated nurses to travel overseas to ply their trade if they can’t get on planes or get through immigration if they’re not vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2021, 01:35:44 pm
Chances are they won’t be fired as they’ll vaccinate. They’ve found in the US that staff were happy to talk tough with pollsters but few followed through. The higher the qualifications, the more difficult it is to walk away.

And if a few unvaccinated walk away, the benefits outweigh the costs.

By the way, let’s not lose sight of the fact that this is not just a Victorian policy. It’s just about in force in NSW and WA is doing the same. And it’ll be hard for unvaccinated nurses to travel overseas to ply their trade if they can’t get on planes or get through immigration if they’re not vaccinated.
My information is that unvaxed FT permanent nurses will be placed on unpaid leave and not fired as its illegal under Fair Work conditions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 30, 2021, 01:40:56 pm
So why were you raising the concern about firings?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on September 30, 2021, 02:05:15 pm
My daughter is a vaxed RN, three of her friends who are senior RNs with specialities are not vaxed and you want to fire them and  replace them with what? How many lives is that going to cost, there needs to be a way to still employ highly skilled nurses unvaxed and not have them leave the job.
I don't want a mandate that sacks highly skilled staff replaces them with div2 enrolled trainees from parts unknown looking for an easy way to get to get residency and burns the remaining skilled nurses who have to cover for them....there is enough of that happening already.


Two unvaccinated nurses recently caused the suspension of cardiac surgery at a major Sydney hospital while the surgeons, nurses, anaesthetists isolated for 14 days.  How many lives will similar incidents cost?
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/unvaccinated-nurses-bring-heart-procedures-to-standstill-in-sydney-hospital-20210916-p58s7v.html

Health workers are under great pressure and they deserve to have a safe workplace and that includes minimising exposure to COVID.  Of course, people can choose not to vaccinate and others can choose not to have them in the workplace.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 30, 2021, 02:19:15 pm
I understated the breadth of the mandate across Australia. WA, NSW, Qld, Tassie and Victoria have them. The AMA has called on the National Cabinet to impose a nationally consistent mandate over the entire country that covers all health workers, including GPs: https://www.ama.com.au/media/ama-wants-nationally-consistent-mandatory-covid-vaccination-all-healthcare-staff (https://www.ama.com.au/media/ama-wants-nationally-consistent-mandatory-covid-vaccination-all-healthcare-staff)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 30, 2021, 02:29:42 pm
Chances are they won’t be fired as they’ll vaccinate. They’ve found in the US that staff were happy to talk tough with pollsters but few followed through. The higher the qualifications, the more difficult it is to walk away.

And if a few unvaccinated walk away, the benefits outweigh the costs.

By the way, let’s not lose sight of the fact that this is not just a Victorian policy. It’s just about in force in NSW and WA is doing the same. And it’ll be hard for unvaccinated nurses to travel overseas to ply their trade if they can’t get on planes or get through immigration if they’re not vaccinated.
Some are genuinely scared while others are genuinely selfish, externally it is often impossible to tell. The selfish are sometimes quite clever, the clever ones are not dumb selfish, they work on the fringes of logic and can elicit support with clever arguments.

That friend I posted about earlier, that is genuinely dumb selfish, but she is completely oblivious to her hypocrisy and thinks she is entitled to have all her friends and family bend to her will so she can choose to swim against the tide. It reminds me of the movie Something About Mary and '7 Minute Abs'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB2di69FmhE
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2021, 02:36:17 pm
So why were you raising the concern about firings?
It's the same as firing them without any legal repercussions....but you know that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2021, 02:42:58 pm
Two unvaccinated nurses recently caused the suspension of cardiac surgery at a major Sydney hospital while the surgeons, nurses, anaesthetists isolated for 14 days.  How many lives will similar incidents cost?
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/unvaccinated-nurses-bring-heart-procedures-to-standstill-in-sydney-hospital-20210916-p58s7v.html

Health workers are under great pressure and they deserve to have a safe workplace and that includes minimising exposure to COVID.  Of course, people can choose not to vaccinate and others can choose not to have them in the workplace.
Thats fine but when you sack or remove skilled nurses from the system you need to replace them with same...not dope growers from Cambodia wanting a residency visa who have trouble working out which end of a hypodermic is the sharp bit.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 30, 2021, 02:46:21 pm
The mandate should carry legal protection for employers in the health industry so they can enforce it without fearing SLAPP suits in retaliation. If a healthcare worker is unvaccinated after the deadline expires, s/he is automatically fired (subject to exceptions for valid excuses). Simples. No litigation allowed.

By all means, have an appeal available to a medical board where there’s a disagreement over the validity of an excuse, but that’s about it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 30, 2021, 02:48:58 pm
I suppose you could flip this argument, and also ask how many valuable and skilled health workers might walk away simply because they are being forced to work for long hours in close proximity to a vocal minority who are greatly increasing the level of risk?

They are sitting next to each other, sharing keyboards, pens, clipboards, toilets, lunch rooms, change rooms, showers, lifts, etc., etc., etc.!

If you were susceptible to that sort of worry then work would become very onerous, it is another layer above dealing with patients. Sort of like the halitosis riddled boss peering over your shoulder!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 30, 2021, 02:50:02 pm
I think we all need to take a big breathe about this stuff.

Generally, you need to put yourself on both sides of this.

1.  we have a new vaccine.  Nurses arent joe average.  They aren't anti vax per se, but they will have an experience of the health care networks, and how they function which makes their stance slightly easier to understand than the run of the mill anti vaxxers who seem to pedal an entirely different mantra.  People tend to form their perspectives based on life experience, and simply ignoring and belittling this thought process from what I would consider a medical professional, has its own issues.  Remember, if these people aren't doing their job properly, they wouldnt be in the system to start with. 

2.  irrespective of where you sit on the mandatory jab situation, the nurses should have a right to not lose their jobs, if they are in the above category instead we need to work with, understand, and educate (this has been a sever shortfall of the current communication strategy).  Im sure Q&A could arrange for better conversations to play out.  I have had to have one too many arguments with people over what is at best, faulty thinking that confirms their biases both for and against vaccination and this is in the general public.  They get their information through faulty sources and fill in gaps, where gaps appear.  Dangerous in and of itself.

3.  From the publics perspective, catching covid off an unvaccinated health care worker, is simply not an outcome that is going to do anything positive for anyone.

4.  That means that all public health staff are going to have be mandatory vaxxed like it or not.

This doesnt mean that they are out of a job though.  There are alternatives.  They can do frequent rapid tests to ensure they arent working if positive.  They can also be put in situations, where being vaccinated is less important i.e. working in facilities where people are fully vaccinated or potentially be in charge of surgical bookings which is not a face to face role, and does require a working knowledge of health and the health care system.

There is too much high horse stuff going on either way IMHO.  There are assertions of knowledge, that are just simply impossible to know and generally the anti vax sentiment is more guilty of this than the pro, but the trepidation from the vaccine cautious who I put in a category of their own, is perfectly understandable and hence why I am less difinitive on it.  Ultimately the benefits of vaccination clearly outweigh the pitfalls but if people are not really sold, then forcing them to get vaccinated might yield worse outcomes for society, where you end up with riots at the CFMEU offices as a classic example.  I have no doubt, that the language surrounding the jab is what fueled that, and then shutting down that industry hurt the many to try and stop the few, and in turn, simply created a bigger problem.

What was the use in that?  there was none.  I think policing a mandatory jab is going to be a lot harder anyway because it relies on overly draconian measure put in place that the majority will reject.  The consequence?  you have created the movement you are trying to squash, when it should have been welcomed, debated and talked to.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 30, 2021, 02:59:06 pm
While I sympathise it is not symmetrical, there is a difference between ideology and real world on both sides of this argument.

The cost of giving the unvaccinated liberty while keeping people as safe as possible is high, and the risk of allowing the unvaccinated the liberty to work in critical environments without excessive cost or administrative overheads is also high.

If I'm a cold, calculating economist, accountant or epidemiologist I potentially calculate that the cost of job losses is the lowest cost, but obviously not for the individual!

There may be solutions in the long term, but nobody is going to have the political will or be prepared to take the higher risk path in the short term. It sucks for some but it's just the way it is!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2021, 03:18:18 pm
Critical Care Nurses have to do daily rapid antigen tests as well as weekly nasal swab tests as do CoVid ward staff and a couple of other specialty areas. I dont have a problem with removing staff who are not vaccinated  but I do have a problem with replacing them with lesser staff or no staff at all. There seems to be a misunderstanding that all nurses are the same and can all do the same functions and that the remaining qualified staff have to carry and cover for the inexperienced replacements.
The Public system is broken and CoVid has just exposed the cracks both the Governments both Federal and State need to fix it.....as the population increases you need more hospitals and need to be training more staff at the same high standard.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on September 30, 2021, 03:48:14 pm
My daughter is a vaxed RN, three of her friends who are senior RNs with specialities are not vaxed and you want to fire them and  replace them with what? How many lives is that going to cost, there needs to be a way to still employ highly skilled nurses unvaxed and not have them leave the job.
I don't want a mandate that sacks highly skilled staff replaces them with div2 enrolled trainees from parts unknown looking for an easy way to get to get residency and burns the remaining skilled nurses who have to cover for them....there is enough of that happening already.


On reading your post, what springs to mind is the thought of three unvaccinated senior RNs working with patients more likely than not to have compromised immune systems. 

No doubt the three of them are well, otherwise they would not be working.  If they should catch covid their chances of survival are far greater than the patients under their control.

The question I have is this: given the dreadful situation facing staff and patients in our hospitals,  how many lives can they cost if they remain unvaccinated?

It just blows my mind that so-called responsible people knowingly place others in harm's way.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2021, 04:03:35 pm
On reading your post, what springs to mind is the thought of three unvaccinated senior RNs working with patients more likely than not to have compromised immune systems. 

No doubt the three of them are well, otherwise they would not be working.  If they should catch covid their chances of survival are far greater than the patients under their control.

The question I have is this: given the dreadful situation facing staff and patients in our hospitals,  how many lives can they cost if they remain unvaccinated?

It just blows my mind that so-called responsible people knowingly place others in harm's way.
They have regular rapid antigen tests as well as nasal swab testing, two will probably have the vaccine but the other one will more than likely refuse and not be allowed to work which is a shame as she is a brilliant ER nurse both academically and practically and provided great advice to my family when we needed it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on September 30, 2021, 04:26:40 pm
NSW Supreme Court hearing on now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRJYXZn7HPE

My word the lawyers acting for the Plaintiffs are terrible. Zero chance of a win.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2021, 04:47:41 pm
NSW Supreme Court hearing on now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRJYXZn7HPE

My word the lawyers acting for the Plaintiffs are terrible. Zero chance of a win.
Got sent same.....Marcus Clarke i think it was looks and sounds the part but the others
look like they were waiting for afternoon tea to be served...
Dr Gale didnt have much in the reference bin either....
Video has been pulled......
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 30, 2021, 05:04:41 pm
Let’s assume for the sake of argument that a nurse should have the right to work if s/he has concerns that s/he may be harmed by the vaccine, even if the risk is speculative and there’s a countervailing risk to patients and coworkers. Then shouldn’t the patients have a similar right to refuse to be treated by unvaccinated nurses? After all, as a subset of the population they have more to fear from Covid than the average punter. If you’re a transplant patient going in for a checkup, would you want to reduce the risks of being infected by staff?

To exercise such a right to object, the unvaccinated status of staff would need to be communicated to patients and a sufficient number of suitably qualified vaccinated staff would need to be available to avoid patients being forced by circumstances to accept treatment from unvaccinated staff. Of course, anti-vaxxers will say forcing the unvaccinated staff to reveal their status is like the Nazis forcing the Jews to wear yellow Stars of David ...

Should the privacy and rights of unvaccinated staff take priority over the rights of patients? Should patients be told that their fears are unreasonable and their nurses’ vaccination status is not theirs to know?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2021, 05:15:25 pm
Let’s assume for the sake of argument that a nurse should have the right to work if s/he has concerns that s/he may be harmed by the vaccine, even if the risk is speculative and there’s a countervailing risk to patients and coworkers. Then shouldn’t the patients have a similar right to refuse to be treated by unvaccinated nurses? After all, as a subset of the population they have more to fear from Covid than the average punter. If you’re a transplant patient going in for a checkup, would you want to reduce the risks of being infected by staff?

To exercise such a right to object, the unvaccinated status of staff would need to be communicated to patients and a sufficient number of suitably qualified vaccinated staff would need to be available to avoid patients being forced by circumstances to accept treatment from unvaccinated staff. Of course, anti-vaxxers will say forcing the unvaccinated staff to reveal their status is like the Nazis forcing the Jews to wear yellow Stars of David ...

Should the privacy and rights of unvaccinated staff take priority over the rights of patients? Should patients be told that their fears are unreasonable and their nurses’ vaccination status is not theirs to know?
Patients have the right to refuse treatment from a staff member regardless of CoVid, you can ask for a different nurse as long as the request is appropriate. ie you cant ask for the white nurse......or the pretty one.
Older folk might ask for the Italian, Greek, Manderin speaking nurse etc etc........
If you dont want the unvaccinated nurse then I am sure she will be happy to pass you over to another nurse and reduce her workload...
Unfortunately for Nurses they dont get to choose their patients...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 30, 2021, 05:25:32 pm
Who determines whether a request for another nurse based on vaccination status is reasonable? Perhaps unvaccinated nurses would consider such a request should be refused in order to protect their civil rights.

And the other nurses would be happy to absorb the extra work? What refusal rate would cause problems? Should a hospital refuse to have more than a certain number of unvaccinated for fear of being unable to meet demand or would that be an unreasonable restraint of trade? Maybe we could put the unvaccinated nurses in the ED to work on unconscious patients who are in no position to object.

Are you sure the unvaccinated senior nurse you were referring to would be happy to alert patients to his or her vaccination status? What about the wider subset of unvaccinated workers?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 30, 2021, 06:06:29 pm
I’m going to assume the ED nurse hasn’t been advising patients of his or her unvaccinated status at all. Which is strange in a profession in which full and informed consent is foundational and we’re in the middle of a bloody pandemic. And I’ll also assume his or her ED doesn’t enquire of patients whether they are okay with unvaccinated staff. In other words, nurses’ health concerns trump patients’ health concerns. And no doubt it’s advantage nurses as almost all patients would assume the nursing staff are vaccinated. Like, it would be crazy if they weren’t, wouldn’t it?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2021, 06:42:47 pm
Nurses in critical care wards, cardiac, covid only wards etc are rapid antigen tested daily and nasal swabbed weekly so unvaccinated or vaccinated you would be very unlucky to to be infected by those Nurses. As far as I know declaring your vaccination status hasnt been deemed necessary by Hospital Management at this stage but they could wear black uniforms with a Grim Reaper symbol , you wouldnt miss them that way.
Daytime Ward administrators determine decision making with regards Nurses and Patients so they would make a call on changing Nurses if a patient made such a request. After hours it would be the Senior in Charge RN....
Ed's are full of nasties....most ED nurses are getting blood tests for HepC and the like etc every month from Blood Splatters , needle stick injuries from dealing with Meth Addicts, Crack Heads,  etc and you get the odd nutter on the wards who wants to pull his Canula out and splatter you with it because the horrible nurse wants him to take his meds or do his obs and he was playing with himself and wants to finish his business...CoVid is just another nasty to add to the list for nurses, just chuck on your PPE and hope it does its job for you and the patients.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 30, 2021, 07:05:05 pm
I'll take that as a concession nurses don't do anything themselves to alert patients. And yay, administrators will always put their patients' interests first rather than worry about nurses going to war over their medical privacy or disruption caused by frequent requests for nursing changes ...

I'm sure you can read the tea leaves ... any patient who arks up over a nurse's unvaccinated status will be waiting a long time before they're seen. Of course patients could ask, but when you have a long wait in ED you won't want to be bumped. Or if you're booked in for surgery and then object to one of the nurses, you'd expect your operation will wait for another day.

Interesting that you are quite happy to write off any fear a patient might have as unreasonable, but the vaccination fears or objections of unvaccinated nurses are determinative no matter how remote risks associated with vaccination might be. And your opinion that patients are better off being treated by experienced unvaccinated staff is a little bit paternalistic. Better for patients to be bumrushed into accepting this by confronting them with a bureaucratic system which makes patients fear the Soup Nazi treatment if they don't go along to get along.   
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2021, 08:26:55 pm
I'll take that as a concession nurses don't do anything themselves to alert patients. And yay, administrators will always put their patients' interests first rather than worry about nurses going to war over their medical privacy or disruption caused by frequent requests for nursing changes ...

I'm sure you can read the tea leaves ... any patient who arks up over a nurse's unvaccinated status will be waiting a long time before they're seen. Of course patients could ask, but when you have a long wait in ED you won't want to be bumped. Or if you're booked in for surgery and then object to one of the nurses, you'd expect your operation will wait for another day.

Interesting that you are quite happy to write off any fear a patient might have as unreasonable, but the vaccination fears or objections of unvaccinated nurses are determinative no matter how remote risks associated with vaccination might be. And your opinion that patients are better off being treated by experienced unvaccinated staff is a little bit paternalistic. Better for patients to be bumrushed into accepting this by confronting them with a bureaucratic system which makes patients fear the Soup Nazi treatment if they don't go along to get along.   

ED Tip...say you have chest pains and feel weak down one side...you will jump to the front of the line.
You can still get CoVid off a vaccinated nurse if they are loaded...I'd rather see their latest CoVid test or Rapid antigen than their pretty green document off the MyGov site. They might have been one of the early jabbers and like the Israeli's have found the vaccine has waned and in need of a booster. So your bullet proof vaccinated nurse might be a tad more dangerous than you think and you might want him or her jabbed in front of you before they wheel you away on that gurney......
Why are you so worried if you are double vaxxed about the unvaccinated but coVid tested nurse?.......If I'm vaxxed I want the 10 year experienced unvaccinated nurse looking after me rather than the Enrolled vaccinated grad nurse from parts unknown here looking for a residency visa and who wouldnt know a syringe pump from a coffee maker....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 30, 2021, 08:39:49 pm
But that’s you. Surely patients have a right to know and make their own decisions. I’d prefer the experienced double-vaccinated nurse who does rapid antigen testing. Apparently some Irish nurses are coming our way. They’re vaccinated and their accents are to die for.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2021, 09:20:07 pm
But that’s you. Surely patients have a right to know and make their own decisions. I’d prefer the experienced double-vaccinated nurse who does rapid antigen testing. Apparently some Irish nurses are coming our way. They’re vaccinated and their accents are to die for.
Those Irish Nurses might bring the MU and Lambda variant with them.....think Ireland has some fresh cases, that MU is a nasty one, worse than Delta and more resistant to the vaccines if I read right.
I wouldnt get too close to those Irish Nurses or let my mask fall off either.....their accents might induce a little droplet of MU coming your way and indeed they might be to die for or should that be die from....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on September 30, 2021, 09:36:30 pm
We definitely now have a two tier society; the covidians and the non-covidians.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 30, 2021, 09:38:22 pm
So rapid antigen testing wouldn’t help much to protect us from Irish nurses. But it means unvaccinated Aussie nurses are safe as houses.

By the way, what I’ve read suggests the Delta variant is the undisputed champion of the Covid world. Maybe some other strains have minor belts in crappy leagues, but don’t let that fool you.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 30, 2021, 10:41:02 pm
Fun and games in the case challenging the NSW vaccine mandate.

Quote
It is argued the vaccination requirement, which will also apply to attending certain retail premises from October 11, is unlawful and invalid on several grounds.

These include that Mr Hazzard had no power to make the orders, failed to consider a number of relevant matters, considered irrelevant matters, and breached the requirements of natural justice.

Barrister Peter King, appearing for construction worker Mr Kassam, said it will be argued Mr Hazzard failed to investigate or inquire as to alternative treatment methods for COVID-19.

He asked vaccine expert Professor Kristine Macartney, a member of the Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI), about the opinion of a nutritionist that zinc, vitamin D and vitamin C “would be safe and effective treatments for COVID-19 patients”.

“No, I don’t agree with that,” Professor Macartney said.

Mr King raised a range of other drugs, including ivermectin – which is commonly used to treat parasites including worms – hydroxychloroquine, aspirin, asthma medication singulair, and the antibiotic doxycycline.


Professor Macartney said she has not personally been involved in any studies about the drugs’ effectiveness in treating COVID-19, but she has apprised herself of all the available evidence and reviews.

Asked about the effects of COVID-19 vaccines on pregnant women, including one of the plaintiffs, Professor Macartney said there is “a growing body of evidence on the safety of vaccination in pregnancy”, leading to the recommendation pregnant women receive the vaccination.

She said if a pregnant woman becomes infected with the virus “there is quite significant evidence of risk to the pregnant woman and the foetus”, including miscarriage.

Professor Macartney said COVID-19 vaccines have had one of the largest clinical trials of any vaccine in history, and rejected the contention that they are an “experiment”.

NSW Deputy Chief Health Officer Dr Marianne Gale said vaccination is associated with a reduction in onward transmission, which could stop a worker from catching the virus and spreading it to their household.

In written submissions, lawyers for aged care worker Ms Henry included a lengthy description of the process of injecting a vaccine into someone’s arm, describing it as an “invasive medical procedure”.

The submissions also reference the Magna Carta, which is said to confer a common law right to work, and a recent dissenting decision by one member of the Fair Work Commission, which criticised mandatory vaccination

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/expert-asked-about-vitamin-c-zinc-during-court-challenge-to-covid-19-vaccine-mandate-20210930-p58w09.html (https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/expert-asked-about-vitamin-c-zinc-during-court-challenge-to-covid-19-vaccine-mandate-20210930-p58w09.html)
Have to laugh at the bolded bits. Denis Denuto rides again! There’ll no doubt be much reliance placed on “the vibe”.

I bet the tension was at fever pitch when the experts were asked about zinc, vitamin C, HCQ, Ivermectin etc. Will the expert say they are viable treatments? Anything is possible, right? But then the stunning and entirely unpredictable response that they weren’t viable alternatives must have shaken everyone to the core. I hope it sets the scene for the usual parade of loopy proponents to give evidence and endure ritual humiliation.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 30, 2021, 10:46:49 pm
Surely the Plaintiffs will trot out the Chinese medicine practitioner who was such a colourful part of the FWC case. Shakespeare knew that every serious story needs a bit of comic relief.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on September 30, 2021, 11:46:31 pm
Maybe the NSW Plaintiffs’ valiant crusade will count for naught as News.com.au is reporting that tomorrow the National Cabinet will consider a nation-wide vaccine mandate covering public hospitals, ambulance services, private hospitals, GPs, private nurse offices, consulting offices, pharmacies and private pathology centres. Even student nurses and doctors on work experience placements and Defence Department health services will be covered.

Of course Murdoch has tried to spin this as a controversial move. The report even includes a reference to George Christensen sending out a video comparing Covid mandates to slavery and apartheid. But as I’m not sure that either Christensen or Murdoch think slavery and apartheid are bad things, it’s hard to say whether that is an attack or a defence of the mandates.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 01, 2021, 08:06:38 am
Patients have the right to refuse treatment from a staff member regardless of CoVid,
Customer, patient, call them whatever you like.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 01, 2021, 09:42:04 am
Just spoke with a family member who is an HR boss at a multi national who said that they have a quandary with a sales person who refuses to get a jab. On further investigation said sales person explained that relatives overseas said one of them had a bad reaction to one of the vaccines  --  not life threatening or requiring hospitalization -- so that's the reason for refusing the shot. There is plenty of this going on... the misinformation and overreaction is more widespread than we may think. Due to the misinformation when folks have soreness and mild fevers they immediately think of the misinformation and then fear for their lives.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 01, 2021, 09:47:49 am
We definitely now have a two tier society; the covidians and the non-covidians.

I wouldn't call less than 10% a tier.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 01, 2021, 10:49:34 am
Just spoke with a family member who is an HR boss at a multi national who said that they have a quandary with a sales person who refuses to get a jab. On further investigation said sales person explained that relatives overseas said one of them had a bad reaction to one of the vaccines  --  not life threatening or requiring hospitalization -- so that's the reason for refusing the shot. There is plenty of this going on... the misinformation and overreaction is more widespread than we may think. Due to the misinformation when folks have soreness and mild fevers they immediately think of the misinformation and then fear for their lives.

Trinidadian rapper Nicki Minaj came out with this airhead classic:
Quote
My cousin in Trinidad won’t get the vaccine cuz his friend got it & became impotent. His testicles became swollen. His friend was weeks away from getting married, now the girl called off the wedding. So just pray on it & make sure you’re comfortable with ur decision, not bullied

She has a gadzillion followers and some of them began protesting against the vaccination.  Of course, the jab doesn't give you bigger balls but, because of Minaj's influence, she was contacted by the White House doctor and given a crash course in the pros and cons of vaccination.  Last I heard she said she was going to get the jab.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 01, 2021, 10:56:34 am
Last I heard she said she was going to get the jab.
By the time they repent it is all too late, it's like Hitler saying sorry to the Jews just before he pulls the trigger!

The Minajery, Trumpites and other nut job groups are killing people over and above what damage the virus does directly, they should be charged and jailed!

How can it be they expect and demand that health workers obey the Hippocratic oath and "Do no harm", yet they see it their privileged right to spread harmful and deadly misinformation primarily just to line their own pockets, "String em up, and string em high!"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 01, 2021, 11:30:00 am
CDC Bulletin;
Quote
Those who are pregnant or were recently pregnant have a higher chance of pregnancy complications, illness and death from COVID-19, a new CDC report says.

More pregnant people in the US died of COVID in August than in any other month in the pandemic, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said Wednesday in a recommendation for "urgent action." The CDC recommends pregnant people, those who were recently pregnant, people who are breastfeeding and everyone who wants to be pregnant in the future get a COVID-19 vaccine. The agency cites data that shows an increased risk for death from COVID-19 and pregnancy complications, which include preterm birth and ICU admission for newborns.

Only 31% of pregnant people in the US were vaccinated as of Sept. 18, according to the CDC. And while the total risk of death remains low, pregnant people have a 70% increased risk of dying from symptomatic COVID-19 compared with people who aren't pregnant. Of pregnant people being hospitalized either from COVID-19 or labor and delivery, 97% weren't vaccinated, the agency said.
We can thank FB and other ar5e-wipe social media for scaring the shizen out of young women, preventing them from being vaccinated!
 
I suppose some feck wit will claim they should have taken HCQ or Ivermectin while pregnant!

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 01, 2021, 12:00:19 pm
No jab No work. All sectors.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on October 01, 2021, 01:04:36 pm
Gladys has just resigned as NSW premier.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 01, 2021, 01:21:37 pm
Gladys has just resigned as NSW premier.
Has Burythemall has found a way out of being held responsible and accountable?

Not only out of the top job but she is getting out of politics ASAP!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 01, 2021, 01:25:51 pm
Gladys has just resigned as NSW premier.
Maybe she has a cruise booked on the Ruby Princess...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 01, 2021, 01:51:07 pm
Maybe she refused to vaccinate and the mandate got her.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 01, 2021, 02:03:48 pm
If only palace chook would follow. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 01, 2021, 02:07:52 pm
Maybe she refused to vaccinate and the mandate got her.
You can order her a Stripe shirt, Grim Reaper badge and send her to one of your re-education camps for the evil cult of the unvaccinated...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 01, 2021, 04:03:30 pm
No, the best analogy is that the unvaccinated should be like a player who suffers possible concussion: pull them out of the game so they’re not a danger to themselves or others and only let them play again once the danger has passed. That senior RN should take a break for a while.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on October 01, 2021, 06:33:25 pm
Gladys has just resigned as NSW premier.

She instantly steps aside for this which is on the very minor scale to our guys crimes all while Dan marches on as if we have forgotten the 800 lives lost due to his incompetence and sheer stubbornness. The latest work cover inquiry has confirmed no individual will be found responsible. What a joke.     

 Its not surprising the people start doing there own thing and stop listening to the instructions when its bought to us by a liar who has run out of respect tickets.  

Glady should have taken a leaf out of Dan's legal defence playbook. It seems the 'I cant recall' response is the best defence in this country to avoid any prosecution and she could of just continued on like our man without missing a beat. What a corrupt and farcical system we have in this country.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 01, 2021, 07:03:10 pm
Minor scale? Corruption is what ICAC is investigating. Of course, right-wingers wouldn’t think that’s serious.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 01, 2021, 07:13:25 pm
ICAC saw a NSW premier resign for accepting a 3K bottle of wine.  Per effin spective.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 01, 2021, 08:13:23 pm
If I didn’t know better, I’d have thought you were making a satirical comment, capcom  :P

Just have a think about what you’ve said: $3,000 isn’t chickenfeed. Otherwise, she wouldn’t have resigned. I think you’ll agree she’s a tough cookie and she wouldn’t have resigned if she’d been stopped for speeding. And of course it isn’t a simple bottle of wine: it’s linked to alleged rorting of grants. She’ll apparently be battling to escape unscathed. Let’s just back over that for emphasis: she didn’t resign on a whim, she just accepted what was unavoidable.

But you’d be right to wonder why she needs to fall on her sword while SloMo’s Ministers escape pretty much unscathed after the sports rorts affair, the car parks for marginal seats affair and Christian Porter’s tours de force. Now Angus Taylor has served a short banishment, he’s back! No doubt Porter will only need to wait a few moments before he’s back on the front bench too ...

PS: Are you sure there’s a $3,000 bottle of wine at the heart of this? Isn’t the main issue that her allegedly corrupt fellow Liberal and her secret boyfriend of 5 years was rorting grants through a company he controlled?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 01, 2021, 09:16:51 pm
If I didn’t know better, I’d have thought you were making a satirical comment, capcom  :P

Just have a think about what you’ve said: $3,000 isn’t chickenfeed. Otherwise, she wouldn’t have resigned. I think you’ll agree she’s a tough cookie and she wouldn’t have resigned if she’d been stopped for speeding. And of course it isn’t a simple bottle of wine: it’s linked to alleged rorting of grants. She’ll apparently be battling to escape unscathed. Let’s just back over that for emphasis: she didn’t resign on a whim, she just accepted what was unavoidable.

But you’d be right to wonder why she needs to fall on her sword while SloMo’s Ministers escape pretty much unscathed after the sports rorts affair, the car parks for marginal seats affair and Christian Porter’s tours de force. Now Angus Taylor has served a short banishment, he’s back! No doubt Porter will only need to wait a few moments before he’s back on the front bench too ...

PS: Are you sure there’s a $3,000 bottle of wine at the heart of this? Isn’t the main issue that her allegedly corrupt fellow Liberal and her secret boyfriend of 5 years was rorting grants through a company he controlled?

Try Barry O'Farrell (NSW Premier 2014), NOT Berejiklian. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 01, 2021, 09:52:53 pm
 :D There ya go: I was wondering where you got that!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 01, 2021, 10:01:24 pm
A good memory ....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 01, 2021, 10:46:30 pm
Interesting history. Apparently Nick Greiner set up ICAC with a view to uncovering the scandals during Neville Wran’s time as Premier but it has now taken down 3 Liberal Premiers: Greiner himself, O’Farrell and now Gladys.

It seems both Greiner and O’Farrell were cleared by ICAC after they resigned: see HERE (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10048115/The-ICAC-hit-list-anti-corruption-watchdog-brought-NSW-Premiers.html). No doubt Gladys hopes for the same.

It does seem strange that ICAC has caused 2 Premiers to resign only to clear them later. Although with O’Farrell, failing to declare a $3000 gift from a company seeking govt contracts was a bit concerning. The whole idea of pecuniary interests declarations is to help stop bribery.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 02, 2021, 12:29:59 pm
I noted a while back that pharmaceutical companies were racing to produce oral antiviral medication for Covid, but it appears Merck is just about to win the race:
How Merck's antiviral pill could change the game for Covid-19 (https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/how-mercks-antiviral-pill-could-change-the-game-for-covid-19), National Geographic.
Merck pill could cut COVID risk in half but won't be a 'miracle' cure for coronavirus, scientists say (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-02/merck-pill-not-a-miracle-cure-for-covid-says-baylor-s-hotez/100509346), abc.net.au.

Merck's trial was stopped early because it was so successful (ethical rules say you can't continue a trial with a group unprotected by placebos when it's clear a drug is effective). There were 8 deaths in the placebo group and none in the medicated group. in the placebo group, 14.1% were hospitalised within the 29 days of the study while the medicatation halved that rate in those taking the medication. Considering that those in both groups were high risk and were all shown by testing to be be Covid-positive (including with Delta and Mu variants) before the trial began, that's not bad. Merck is now applying for emergency use authorisations in the US and around the world.

The benefit of this drug is that it comes in a course of tablets: 4 pills twice a day for 4 days. There is currently no oral antiviral medication for Covid. Patients can be treated at home and that would free up beds in hospitals.. On the other hand, monoclonal antibodies, whilst effective, are administered intravenously and that obviously needs to be done by medical staff. 

Of course, it'll earn Merck a pretty packet. The US Govt has already bought courses at US$700 a pop. But the Federal Govt would no doubt put it on the PBS scheme which would reduce its cost to patients and providing it free would be cost-effective when you look at the cost of hospitalising someone for a month or so. Presumably, it might only be available to those who were enrolled in the trial, in other words those who have at least 1 risk factor including being over 60, obese, immunocompromised from other conditions or having underlying heart or pulmonary disease, among others. But I can just imagine the flipside of the argument that the over-60s made that they shouldn't be shut out of Pfizer just because they're over 60: 59 year olds will argue there's no basis for shutting them out if someone just a year older is eligible.   

Apparently, monoclonal antibodies are more effective still (85% effective in reducing hospitalisation and death) but cost 3 times more. Does Medicare provide these currently? Can the oral medications be a first line of defence and then monoclonal antibodies might be provided if they fail? 

In any event, it would be great if this drug is available to treat patients before the hospitals are overrun.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on October 02, 2021, 01:58:44 pm
No jab No work. All sectors.

I'd expect the majority of AFL players won't have an issue with this.
I'm just curious though....the AFL would have to make it a mandatory requirement as well.
Otherwise we have the situation where Victorian based players are impacted, yet it's not necessarily a requirement for interstate players.
I haven't seen anything, but has the AFL already moved towards vaccination being compulsory.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 02, 2021, 02:16:29 pm
Of course, it'll earn Merck a pretty packet. The US Govt has already bought courses at US$700 a pop. But the Federal Govt would no doubt put it on the PBS scheme which would reduce its cost to patients and providing it free would be cost-effective when you look at the cost of hospitalising someone for a month or so.
The government should make it free, it's an order of magnitude cheaper than a hospital visit, if they make it too expensive or even moderately expensive there will be very vulnerable people who delay and then need to be hospitalised destroying the benefit and the savings.

Like the intravenous treatments, it's most effective administered early, so ideally you do not want people waiting until they are sick. If someone is positive have it ready to administer. There is talk of allowing doctors clinics to administer the intravenous treatments or even have RNs doing it in homes.

Merck might have won the race to be first, but GSK and others won't stop, the prize is too high, and the variants will keep coming.

I've also read recently an auto-injector version being tested, works like diabetic or Epi pens, should be easy to use.

This is very exciting, we need this to work and quickly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 02, 2021, 11:55:31 pm
A brother of a friend, 65yo still fit lean healthy tradie working in and around Melbourne. Had previously had one AZ vaccine shot a couple of weeks before getting the sniffles, thought they were a vaccine side-effect, but got worse after a couple of days so got tested, .......... positive!

Isolated at home, said he had no major problems, felt a bit unwell like having the lurgy, was talking to friends and family on the phone who suggested he should go back to his doctor as he sounded unwell.

Promised them he'd get a nights rest and go tomorrow.

Tomorrow never come around!

Barely a week after testing positive and he was gone!

No blood clots, no stroke, no cancer, no underlying major disease found by the coroner, as he was found passed at home by his son it had to be fully investigated, just COVID, nothing more and nothing less.

You do not have to be unwell or have some other illness.
You do not need to have some co-morbidity.
You do not need to be overweight.
You do not need to be frail.

All you have to do is get it!

Don't feck around, get vaccinated, if your ill get help, don't take the risk, and don't delay!

The only thing you know is that you don't know, so do as the ads say, if you have a cough or runny nose, fever, sore throat, whatever cold or flu like symptoms no matter how mild, get tested, it's free, it's fast, and it could save your life!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 03, 2021, 11:33:46 am
Wise words LP and condolences to your friend.

Unfortunately, your friend’s brother did have 1 factor that put him in a susceptible category: his age. We don’t think of our immune systems deteriorating with age as we we can’t measure it or assess it ourselves, unlike our hair, skin and sporting performance. But a fully-vaccinated 80 year old only has the resistance to Covid of an unvaccinated 50 year old (and nowhere near the resistance of a fully vaccinated 50 year old). I don’t know what the comparison would be for a fully vaccinated 65 year old, but the vaccine will only partially reverse the ravages of time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on October 03, 2021, 01:07:00 pm
Wise words LP and condolences to your friend.

Unfortunately, your friend’s brother did have 1 factor that put him in a susceptible category: his age. We don’t think of our immune systems deteriorating with age as we we can’t measure it or assess it ourselves, unlike our hair, skin and sporting performance. But a fully-vaccinated 80 year old only has the resistance to Covid of an unvaccinated 50 year old (and nowhere near the resistance of a fully vaccinated 50 year old). I don’t know what the comparison would be for a fully vaccinated 65 year old, but the vaccine will only partially reverse the ravages of time.

I'm 67.
Double vaccinated but with kidney and heart issues.
I've just recovered from a respiratory illness which included a severe cough that lasted two months.
I had 4 tests over that time just to keep making sure what I was experiencing wasn't Covid, but if Covid is worse than that (and I'm sure it is) I don't think being double vaccinated will make a huge difference.

But I'm quite happy to do it for others.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 03, 2021, 01:18:58 pm
I'm 67.
Double vaccinated but with kidney and heart issues.

But I'm quite happy to do it for others.
It's also a factor of age that the efficacy of the vaccines diminish quicker, so once/if they start offering boosters you should not hesitate to check with your doctor and get it if you are eligible.

Glad to hear your vigilant, my mates brother made the primary error of disregarding the initial sniffles and it cost him his life! I suppose part of the problem is people do not want to believe they might have it, when the reality is more than likely we'll all get it at some stage, and the earlier you are diagnosed and treated the better.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 03, 2021, 01:30:49 pm
Yep, we have to operate on the assumption that every one of us will at least be exposed to Covid at some point. The trick is to put it off as long as possible so effective treatments are available when the bell tolls for us. Double vaccination may well be enough to help you survive even if there’s no guarantee, but if it slows down Covid’s progression so that you have time to take these new oral antivirals then it will have done its job.

Imagine being in that first wave of cases when the doctors had no idea how to treat Covid patients ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 03, 2021, 02:31:29 pm
Apparently international cricketers and tennis players are except from the no jab no work mandate.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 03, 2021, 03:09:08 pm
Novak has caught Covid so many times he must be immune by now ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 03, 2021, 07:13:38 pm
Sorry to read of your friend's tragic story, Spotted One. Sadly, there have been too many of these and likely many more to come.

When you look at the statistics of those going into intensive care the under vaccinated and not vaccinated are disproportionately represented. The message is clear.

Look after yourself, Principal LODS. Glad you're fully vaccinated.

My uncle by marriage in NSW, who's had heart surgery, bowel surgery (cancer), six months of chemo, colostomy bag for around 9 months and is 70, is fully vaccinated and got Covid a coupla months ago... mild sniffles, no hospitalisation needed. And he's on all manner of medication for his ticker.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 03, 2021, 08:31:44 pm
Wow, that’s a good result!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 04, 2021, 08:52:38 am
Wow, that’s a good result!

He went through all of that over about a 4 year period... first the bowel cancer (ignored symptoms - tough guy) which was pretty well established. Bag for a while. Then when the bag was removed and he was finished with chemo, 3 hospitalisations with heart attacks so then the ticker surgery... and so on. He only got tested for Covid on the insistence of my aunt as she noticed his sniffles - and her own.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 04, 2021, 09:09:15 am
I often wonder when the daily new infections stats come out what the real infection rate is in, say, our state? Some of the stats, %s and data gurus on here might know the answer to that one.

Mrs Baggers was reading some interesting research over the weekend on Covid and blood groups - mortality rates by age groups etc. Early stages but interesting. Long way to go but it seems the older blood groups (Os) do a little better in terms of survival.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 04, 2021, 10:40:08 am
I often wonder when the daily new infections stats come out what the real infection rate is in, say, our state?
Effective R0 was 1.5 on average for Vic in recent times so the restrictions are working, but they are breaking it down by region now so some areas like the Northern Suburbs or Dandenong / Cranbourne are quite a bit higher at about 3.5.

They can basically tell which areas aren't complying with lockdown restrictions based on the R0 calculation for that region!

The raw R0 for Delta is now estimated to be above 8.5, so that is basically as bad as polio, measles or chicken pox, but that is an estimate and not the effective R0. Effective R0 is a function of all countermeasures offsetting the virus capability. However, the raw R0 estimate gives you an idea of how bad things could get if they let it rip in dense unpopulated communities.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 04, 2021, 11:01:03 am
FWIW, the cost of not vaccinating and allowing infections to run free is starting to reveal itself in joint studies run by Chinese doctors and the US AMA.

JAMA Open (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2784558#nav)
Quote
In this cohort study of 2433 patients who had been hospitalized with COVID-19, the most common symptoms at 1 year after discharge were fatigue, sweating, chest tightness, anxiety, and myalgia. Patients with severe disease had more post infection symptoms and higher chronic obstructive pulmonary disease assessment test scores.
45% of post COVID sufferers report symptoms at 1 year, these are symptoms validated by doctors not self-reporting like VAERS, and that isn't the Delta variant which wasn't yet about when those patients recovered! :o

This high societal and economic cost has been known to be the case regarding Sars-CoV-2 since the initial outbreak, it is completely ignored by the COVID sceptics and lockdown dissenters.

I've heard some epidemiologists report that calculations of the long term economic cost produce estimates as high as 6.5x the initial cost of the pandemic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 04, 2021, 11:20:34 am
He went through all of that over about a 4 year period... first the bowel cancer (ignored symptoms - tough guy) which was pretty well established. Bag for a while. Then when the bag was removed and he was finished with chemo, 3 hospitalisations with heart attacks so then the ticker surgery... and so on. He only got tested for Covid on the insistence of my aunt as she noticed his sniffles - and her own.
It might just be 1 case, but it shows being fully vaccinated means those who might be in several categories of susceptibility don’t need to think of themselves as sitting ducks. That’s cause for optimism in a pessimistic world.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 04, 2021, 11:25:13 am
It might just be 1 case, but it shows being fully vaccinated means those who might be in several categories of susceptibility don’t need to think of themselves as sitting ducks. That’s cause for optimism in a pessimistic world.
Another example of vaccine optimism can be taken from The Rage reports today about Silverton, Colorado, Delta still spreading despite 99.9% vaccination but vaccinated are not dying from it!
Quote
The county logged its first hospitalisations of the pandemic in early August – this year, not 2020. Five summer residents were hospitalised. Three ended up on ventilators: Two recovered and the third, a 53-year-old woman, died at the end of August. All were believed to be unvaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 04, 2021, 01:35:48 pm
From a SMH report:
Quote
About 15,000 additional doses of a new COVID-19 treatment already showing promise in Sydney’s hospitals will arrive in Australia this week.
Sotrovimab, a novel monoclonal antibody treatment administered by a one-time intravenous infusion, was approved by the Therapeutic Goods Administration on August 20.
The treatment has been shown to reduce hospitalisation or death by 79 per cent for adults with mild to moderate COVID-19 at risk of developing a more severe disease.
Professor Greg Dore, an infectious diseases physician at St Vincent’s Hospital, said the treatment was having a “potential impact” on reducing intensive care numbers, and was particularly useful as it could be administered to people receiving treatment for COVID-19 at home during a short appointment.
“We just bring them in for a couple of hours ... it is administered over 30 minutes or half an hour and a half observation period after that they go home,” he explained.
In a statement, federal Health Minister Greg Hunt said the treatment “has the potential to protect Australians from developing serious disease, and reduce hospitalisations and death in people who are at high risk from COVID-19″.
“Vaccination, however, continues to remain the most important and safest way for Australians to protect themselves and their loved ones from COVID-19,” he said.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 04, 2021, 02:15:19 pm
The recent addition of oral antivirals and another monoclonal antibody treatment to the doctors’ armoury is really encouraging. The death rate from Covid will continue to diminish. But there’s a couple of perverse public policy implications:

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 04, 2021, 04:07:09 pm
As this stage we shouldn't assume the side-effects of Sotrovimab or Merck's new Molnupiravir will be trivial, even though they both may well be life saving!

Not sure anti-vaxers would be convinced to take a new medicine over any vaccination old or new, which always does my head in when discussions of Ivermectin surface given Ivermectin's arm long list of potential serious side-effects. They have zero logic, logic is not part of their discussions!

Some of you may have stumbled across the stories relating to the strong arm protestors being diagnosed positive, and in particular how they dramatically changed tune once confronted by the reality of COVID ICU. I'm not sure what to think, they deserve privacy but I can't help but think they deserve to be exposed as well!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 05, 2021, 08:55:25 am
Only 1763 new cases ... who you gonna blame now andrews?  Cretin.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 05, 2021, 09:48:04 am
I don’t know about him, but I blame the cretins who’ve worked tirelessly to spread a lethal virus. That’s one thing the scriptwriters of Contagion got wrong. They had the populace resorting to violence to secure the vaccine and protect themselves. Where were the anti-vaxxers, anti-maskers and anti-lockdowners trying to throw a spanner in the works? I guess that truth is stranger than fiction and the scriptwriters thought inserting such characters into the film would make it ridiculous.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 05, 2021, 04:59:30 pm
Looks like MBB has an answer to his question about whether the protests after the construction shutdown were at least as much of a superspreader event as the infamous engagement party: COVID cases linked to violent CFMEU protests surge to seven, union says (https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/covid-cases-linked-to-violent-cfmeu-protests-surge-to-seven-union-says-c-4154702), 7news.com.au.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 05, 2021, 05:06:11 pm
Looks like MBB has an answer to his question about whether the protests after the construction shutdown were at least as much of a superspreader event as the infamous engagement party: COVID cases linked to violent CFMEU protests surge to seven, union says (https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/covid-cases-linked-to-violent-cfmeu-protests-surge-to-seven-union-says-c-4154702), 7news.com.au.
The let it rip unrestrained Sars-CoV-2 R0 for Delta variant is now calculated at about 8.5, in the next week or so it could get very grim for some of them if they were also anti-vaxers!

Of course that assumes they also ignored social distancing and mask wearing away from the protests, but I wouldn't be surprised to find some contradictory behaviours around family and friends.

Another emerging vector are again the illegal gym patrons, they are at it again having already been responsible for one spreader event last year!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 05, 2021, 05:17:14 pm
Looks like MBB has an answer to his question about whether the protests after the construction shutdown were at least as much of a superspreader event as the infamous engagement party: COVID cases linked to violent CFMEU protests surge to seven, union says (https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/covid-cases-linked-to-violent-cfmeu-protests-surge-to-seven-union-says-c-4154702), 7news.com.au.

Define superspreader. The family I know who were infected was from a factory where an infected worker infected 19 people who brought it back to their houses.

Yeah but blame the protesters, Gladys, Trump whatever else suits your agenda.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 05, 2021, 05:22:24 pm
Define superspreader. The family I know who were infected was from a factory where an infected worker infected 19 people who brought it back to their houses.
@madbluboy‍ we have to assume protestors won't have themselves tested like the general public, so seven is a lot!

That is probably seven seriously ill, not seven mildly ill or asymptomatic! ;)

So then you extrapolate in the other direction to usual, if serious illness remains at about 15% of cases that means there is about another 46 infected circulating!

At R0 = 8.5 they can become more than 3300 in just two cycles of infection!
46 x 8.5 x 8.5 = ~3323 the approximate formula is xR0n where n is the number of cycles and x is the starting case count.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 05, 2021, 05:34:01 pm
Yep. Compare it to the infamous engagement party. In all likelihood, the attendees weren’t anti-vaxxers or anti-lockdowners, they just would have thought there was bugger all chance of being infected given we were close to Covid-0 at the time and they trusted that the other attendees were responsible people who wouldn’t be infected. IIRC, many were wearing masks. I’m guessing when they learned one of their number had been Covid positive, they would have been lining up to be tested.

On the other side of the fence, when anti-vaxxers get sick enough to seek medical assistance they often dispute the diagnosis of Covid on the basis it doesn’t exist or they were fully protected by Ivermectin or Vitamin C. That mob won’t get tested until they or their associates are forced into hospital.

PS: Memory fail! I had another look at the video and couldn’t see any masks! Interesting that 2 infected people were among the gathering. Maybe they wouldn’t have been lining up for testing, but I’m guessing the tracers were able to identify them all through the video and the sheepish hosts.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 05, 2021, 07:22:01 pm
High-profile Mongols bikie member, Dylan Goddard aka "The Destroyer",  spent time in a Covid intensive care unit after attending the protest/riot.  I believe he said, "COVID is real" upon his discharge from hospital.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 05, 2021, 07:41:02 pm
Almost 1800 people got covid yesterday, over 99% of them had nothing to do with protests.

More chance of getting the disease from your local Coles or Woolies than walking around the city holding a sign.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 05, 2021, 07:43:53 pm
@madbluboy‍ we have to assume protestors won't have themselves tested like the general public, so seven is a lot!

That is probably seven seriously ill, not seven mildly ill or asymptomatic! ;)

So then you extrapolate in the other direction to usual, if serious illness remains at about 15% of cases that means there is about another 46 infected circulating!

At R0 = 8.5 they can become more than 3300 in just two cycles of infection!
46 x 8.5 x 8.5 = ~3323 the approximate formula is xR0n where n is the number of cycles and x is the starting case count.

You don't have to and shouldn't assume anything.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 05, 2021, 07:55:05 pm
You don't have to and shouldn't assume anything.
You're completely right, the protestors definitely won't be tested and only those who become seriously ill will be counted as they eventually enter hospital.

So for every single one that enters hospital, there are another three highly contagious that haven't! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on October 05, 2021, 08:18:05 pm
Almost 1800 people got covid yesterday, over 99% of them had nothing to do with protests.

More chance of getting the disease from your local Coles or Woolies than walking around the city holding a sign.

Nah mate. Didn’t you know thousands going thru coles and woolies daily can’t possibly spread Covid cause they are doing what Dan asked. Covid knows it’s legal to touch the same shelves walk shoulder to shoulder as long as your food shopping then Covid is dormant

Yet any illegal gathering whether it’s 5 people watching the Gf or a union protest in the open air is a disaster and always a super-spreader that causes Covid to spread out of control and infect 1000s 🤔

Crazy to think the blind faith people have in this liar. The bloke finds an excuse in every situation. The cases were heading north in a hurry during the early 1 week short sharp lockdown and have not slowed up. He ignorantly scoffed at NSW position saying we don’t want to be like nsw so we lock down early to prevent it. Our lying leader has no clue folks by now you should have worked that out and to think he is still allowed in any position of power is as I’ve said before is farcical and criminal.

Yet there are still those no matter what he does or doesn’t do defend him and the second any group met illegally they have the scapegoat they needed to blame escalating cases on. Thing is every day during this lockdown we have countless areas where people can met legally and cause major outbreaks yet because it’s within the rules it’s not front and centre.

Unbelievable.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 05, 2021, 08:43:32 pm
Almost 1800 people got covid yesterday, over 99% of them had nothing to do with protests.

More chance of getting the disease from your local Coles or Woolies than walking around the city holding a sign.
Where does that percentage come from? Is it your assumption?

By the way, that’s what a superspreader event is: people present become infected and then they spread it to their family and friends and then that widening group infects strangers in Coles or Woolies. If the protesters went for tests on the way home and isolated until they received a negative test, there wouldn’t be much of an issue. But what do you think the chances are that they did that: not 99%, I bet.

And how many of the protesters were quietly walking around the city holding signs? You’ve no doubt seen the footage showing almost entirely unmasked people packed in as tightly as in a mosh pit at a rock concert shouting in close proximity to others. I might be making a rash assumption here, but I’m assuming they weren’t vaccinated either. If only high definition slow-motion cameras had zoomed in on those events, maybe they could have documented a miasma of spittle floating above the protesters and might even have tracked some droplets on the way to their destinations, à la Contagion or Outbreak.

But the kicker is that it isn’t necessary to show that new infections emanated solely from the protests. What we need is to reduce the growth of Covid. If we hadn’t had these protests, the new case numbers would be lower. And that’s not an assumption.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 05, 2021, 11:14:50 pm
Almost 1800 people got covid yesterday, over 99% of them had nothing to do with protests.

More chance of getting the disease from your local Coles or Woolies than walking around the city holding a sign.

I have to ask, where did your 99% figure come from?  I don't think it's based on any of the scientific modelling. 

There's more chance of getting COVID by getting together with folk in someone's home.  The chances of getting COVID by shopping in a supermarket while wearing a mask and social distancing are pretty low but checking in with the QR code means that you'll be tracked if you're exposed. 

The chances of getting COVID by taking part in protest/riot and not wearing a mask and/or social distancing may not be high but, because no-one knows who was there and the participants are unlikely to be tested, we won't know whether it was a super-spreader event until folk are in ICU or are found dead at home. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on October 05, 2021, 11:32:17 pm
I have to ask, where did your 99% figure come from?  I don't think it's based on any of the scientific modelling. 

There's more chance of getting COVID by getting together with folk in someone's home.  The chances of getting COVID by shopping in a supermarket while wearing a mask and social distancing are pretty low but checking in with the QR code means that you'll be tracked if you're exposed. 

The chances of getting COVID by taking part in protest/riot and not wearing a mask and/or social distancing may not be high but, because no-one knows who was there and the participants are unlikely to be tested, we won't know whether it was a super-spreader event until folk are in ICU or are found dead at home. 

This is true provided all the points you raise occur yet in the real world they don’t. People on all levels relax and get comfortable when a lockdown goes on and on and on and on. It’s human nature like it or not.

Go to cafe for a coffee and social distancing never happens. Bunnings is pretty bad too.  I see a big percentage without masks or with them on their chin and see heaps walk in straight past the QR check in. Never seen one stopped as long as you show your Bunnings card you’re in.

And try social distancing when they have one cashier open. Doesn’t happen mate.

It’s simplistic to think that supermarkets, Bunnings building sites cause low levels of spread because of tracking masks and social distancing. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 05, 2021, 11:45:18 pm
Another new treatment is on the way! AstraZeneca is seeking an Emergency Use Authorisation from the FDA regarding AZD7442. Apparently it reduces the risk of those jabbed with it developing Covid symptoms by 77%.

This jab isn’t a vaccine though. Vaccines act by prompting the body’s immune system to recognise and attack the Covid virus. But vaccines don’t have all that much benefit for immune-compromised people as the immune system often fails to respond as needed. This drug instead contains lab-made antibodies which stay in the body for months.

Apart from giving the immune-compromised some immunity they lack, perhaps it might also augment the immune response of those who have received a vaccine, but whether the benefits of this drug and vaccines are cumulative isn’t clear.

It is a cause for optimism that treatments and prophylactics such as this drug and other vaccines are being released at a steady clip and they are starting to fill in the gaps in vaccine coverage. Yet another reason to do everything we can to make sure we can delay infection as long as possible.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 05, 2021, 11:54:36 pm
This is true provided all the points you raise occur yet in the real world they don’t. People on all levels relax and get comfortable when a lockdown goes on and on and on and on. It’s human nature like it or not.

Go to cafe for a coffee and social distancing never happens. Bunnings is pretty bad too.  I see a big percentage without masks or with them on their chin and see heaps walk in straight past the QR check in. Never seen one stopped as long as you show your Bunnings card you’re in.

And try social distancing when they have one cashier open. Doesn’t happen mate.

It’s simplistic to think that supermarkets, Bunnings building sites cause low levels of spread because of tracking masks and social distancing. 

You must live in a different world to me.  Of course I see the odd feckwit with their mask under their nose and the occasional older citizen can't quite do the QR code, but they are a tiny minority.  The vast majority are doing the right thing in my neck of the woods and, from what my friends and family tell me, that's the case across the nation.

It's not simplistic to follow the best modelling available.  It's simplistic to think that your observations trump the best scientific minds .... but that's why we're in a pickle; too many folk think that reading something online is research   :(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on October 06, 2021, 02:05:28 am
It's simplistic to think that your observations trump the best scientific minds .... but that's why we're in a pickle; too many folk think that reading something online is research   :(

Not sure I said anywhere my observations were superior to the real experts but ok.

I made the point that the worlds longest lockdown is not done the job out great man said it will and was a fail. Similar to his first fail where we lost 800 lives while the rest of country lost under 200 combined over the same period!

And if you think it only failed because of the spreading from a few open air protests and GF parties in a city with over 6 million residents well i just don’t buy that. Not saying I’m right just my thoughts on it tell me there is more to the numbers rocketing then that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on October 06, 2021, 03:48:06 am
Not sure I said anywhere my observations were superior to the real experts but ok.

I made the point that the worlds longest lockdown is not done the job out great man said it will and was a fail. Similar to his first fail where we lost 800 lives while the rest of country lost under 200 combined over the same period!

And if you think it only failed because of the spreading from a few open air protests and GF parties in a city with over 6 million residents well i just don’t buy that. Not saying I’m right just my thoughts on it tell me there is more to the numbers rocketing then that.

Once again, here are the facts: a Federal Government enquiry into the private nursing homes funded and controlled by the Federal Government in Victoria found the following:

1. Poor infection control.
2. Severely depleted staff numbers.
3. Inadequate emergency planning.
4. Deficient leadership.

In total, 655 (82 percent) of the 801 residents who died  in nursing homes were in private aged care, the responsibility of the Federal Government and, in particular, the then Minister for the Aged, the totally incompetent Richard Colbeck, who is now conspicuous by his absence as he has been hidden from public scrutiny to avoid further questioning.

 

These facts have been known for months, yet you keep banging on about Dan bearing responsibility for 800 deaths and you continue to say nothing of the failings  of the federal Department for the Aged in the matter.

Then you seem to have a memory lapse when blaming Dan for the failure of the lockdown.  We were at zero cases per day when two furniture removalists from NSW brought the Delta strain across the border, caused in part by the failure of Gladys to control the virus in NSW.

 Had Gladys not lost control, and had the Federal Government not placed all its eggs in one basket last year when it concentrated on purchasing AZ only, and had shown responsibility in purchasing Pfizer as well, the country would now be in a much better position to face the coming months of strain on our hospitals and allied health services.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 06, 2021, 07:33:23 am


I have to ask, where did your 99% figure come from?  I don't think it's based on any of the scientific modelling. 

There's more chance of getting COVID by getting together with folk in someone's home.  The chances of getting COVID by shopping in a supermarket while wearing a mask and social distancing are pretty low but checking in with the QR code means that you'll be tracked if you're exposed. 

The chances of getting COVID by taking part in protest/riot and not wearing a mask and/or social distancing may not be high but, because no-one knows who was there and the participants are unlikely to be tested, we won't know whether it was a super-spreader event until folk are in ICU or are found dead at home. 

Considering there are hundreds (not an assumption, Brett Sutton's words) of exposure sites including homes and workplaces that are not publicly listed  yes the protests are less than 1%.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 06, 2021, 07:56:28 am

Considering there are hundreds (not an assumption, Brett Sutton's words) of exposure sites including homes and workplaces that are not publicly listed  yes the protests are less than 1%.
Not all exposures are equal.

Although any incidents can cause a transmission, walking past someone at arms length in a sparsely populated supermarket is not the same as standing shoulder to shoulder packed in together screaming at the police for 2 hrs. That's pretty obvious!

Of course what happens next is important too, if you get in a car alone and go straight home and isolate, or if you hop on a tram or train ignoring social distancing and mask rules.

All incidents are reported as an exposure site, but it's obvious all are not equal!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 06, 2021, 08:00:50 am


The funniest part is I have been accused by the lefties on here of questioning scientific minds and their modelling (which I didn't) but only one poster on here puts up their own modelling and they never question him.

Oh wait is LP the scientific mind I shouldn't be questioning?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 06, 2021, 08:06:09 am

The funniest part is I have been accused by the lefties on here of questioning scientific minds and their modelling (which I didn't) but only one poster on here puts up their own modelling and they never question him.

Oh wait is LP the scientific mind I shouldn't be questioning?
I'm not sure you need science to tell the difference between those events, can I ask why you specifically believe all exposure sites are equal?

Have we had a supermarket based super spreader event yet?

Most commercial retail have had density caps and new ventilation guidelines they have to follow, and have been doing so for more than a year now, so do schools now. The two main events from schools that have caused super-spreading are because they largely ignored social distancing guidelines and packed too many students and staff into confined poorly ventilated spaces for an event.

Of course limiting the spread all only works if everyone obey the basic rules, ........... Doh!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 06, 2021, 08:09:45 am
I'm not sure you need science to tell the difference between those events, can I ask why you specifically believe all exposure sites are equal?

No. Indoors is worse than outdoors.

That's why we are allowed to catch up in parks but not homes. Unless you are holding up an anti Dan sign then it's dangerous.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 06, 2021, 08:19:34 am
No. Indoors is worse than outdoors.

That's why we are allowed to catch up in parks but not homes. Unless you are holding up an anti Dan sign then it's dangerous.
While obeying social distancing rules and still wearing your mask, it's pretty obvious.

They were mostly protesting Setka weren't they, at least I think that is what the non-Murdoch news showed me?

They are free to protest and conduct themselves as they like, they don't get shot for protesting like in China. I suppose it's why we don't randomly walk through parks attacking young picnicking families who are wearing their masks while getting the kids some outdoor time, we don't want to be hypocrites! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 06, 2021, 08:31:46 am
Tarring every protester with that brush is like saying every cop is like that coward who walked up behind that guy and slam tackled his head into the ground.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 06, 2021, 08:39:14 am
Tarring every protester with that brush is like saying every cop is like that coward who walked up behind that guy and slam tackled his head into the ground.



Was that one of the guys who put a cop in the hospital first?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 06, 2021, 08:48:25 am
Was that one of the guys who put a cop in the hospital first?


No and he didn't have a knife either that Dan's Facebook army tried to pretend.

The cop was suspended. If you or I did it we would be serving prison time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 06, 2021, 08:55:21 am
Quote
Young men who were at the rally on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday are now being picked up in rapid tests as they are taken to hospital, the Herald Sun reports.
https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/australia/australia-covid-news-live-lockdown-restrictions-cases-and-vaccinations/news-story/379c7b11ac05da50fcfd8c5dfc3c9090 (https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/australia/australia-covid-news-live-lockdown-restrictions-cases-and-vaccinations/news-story/379c7b11ac05da50fcfd8c5dfc3c9090)

That qualifies as an admission against interest by Murdoch.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 06, 2021, 10:10:10 am
The cop was suspended.
A police officer or other public official being suspended as part of an investigation is procedural, part of the investigation routine, and it means nothing in terms of guilt or innocence, but the media like to imply that it means guilt.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 06, 2021, 10:15:17 am
That qualifies as an admission against interest by Murdoch.
There is some considerable irony in workers falling in line behind the opinions of the hard right, commentators like Credlin, Jones, Bolt, Panahi and Murdoch Media, now it seems when times suit the defenders of the working class people! :o

To borrow a phrase from @madbluboy‍;

Wapping happened! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 06, 2021, 10:25:04 am
And the left using a wife beating scumbag like Setka to preach about how to behave.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 06, 2021, 10:27:51 am
And the left using a wife beating scumbag like Setka to preach about how to behave.
Talking about beatings, Wapping happened!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 06, 2021, 10:34:53 am
I agree the suspension doesn't mean guilt. But the policeman who slam-tackled that guy would need to have a pretty good reason for doing that if he's to avoid being found guilty. If the concern was that he was armed or in other ways dangerous to apprehend in a less violent fashion, maybe this is one of those situations in which a taser may have been less injurious.

I am tickled the tackle evoked much pearl-clutching from right-wingers though. They're quite happy to see a bit of retribution or "attitude adjustment" inflicted on leftwing protesters, e.g. BLM protesters.  But when it's one of their own "freedom fighters", the strongarm tactics they love to see police use are suddenly inhumane. As always, this is best exemplified by Trump and his disciples. Trump even encouraged the police to slam the heads of suspects into police cars as they were loading them in, telling the police they were being too nice to them. And the Trumpists were incensed that the police opposed their insurrection (although in truth they were much less muscular than they would have been if it had been a mob of leftwing protesters trying to storm the Capitol). One insurrectionist shot and killed by a Capitol police officer as she was trying to break through into the Capitol building was so much worse than the series of shootings of blacks by police.

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 06, 2021, 10:44:14 am
And the left using a wife beating scumbag like Setka to preach about how to behave.

Scumbag?  You're too kind MBB.  I know it's complicated but I have to wonder why/how an intelligent woman can live with a creature that's lower than sharksh1t  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 06, 2021, 10:55:47 am
Yep, that would and should disqualify him from just about every job, save perhaps the role of Commonwealth Attorney-General.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 06, 2021, 10:58:08 am
Yep, that would and should disqualify him from just about every job, save perhaps the role of Commonwealth Attorney-General.
Nthmond Drunken Chopstick Champion
Prime Minister Wall Puncher
Preferred Coach King Hit

Humanity is littered with contradictions.

Might a CheatsFC player refuse the jab? :o ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 06, 2021, 12:58:13 pm
Might a CheatsFC player refuse the jab? :o ;D

Now that made me laugh... :))  :))
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on October 06, 2021, 01:08:19 pm
...
Might a CheatsFC player refuse the jab? :o ;D

Zaharakis did.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 06, 2021, 01:44:56 pm
There was the photo that made the news of some of the protesters doing lines after the protest and the point was made that it was pretty hypocritical. Whilst the authenticity of that photo may be debated, the odds are that some of the protesters are happy to smoke, inhale or inject drugs despite warnings that they may be cut or mixed with dangerous substances (leaving aside the dangers posed by the pure product).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 06, 2021, 01:45:47 pm
Zaharakis did.
Has struggled to get a game since, no jab no play! :o

CheatsFC, always ahead of the curve!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 06, 2021, 02:31:29 pm
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-06/ibac-premier-daniel-andrews-cfa-volunteers-pay-dispute/100517280

One way or another ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 06, 2021, 02:53:00 pm
Dan the man with the selective memory who cant find his 4000 beds/Ventilators or answer questions  but happy to fund the likes of Revolver Upstairs and Section 8 under the guise of live music. Two well known drug haunts where you can buy your smack and go on a week long bender, think Revs had a dead body at the back of a couch for three days and the staff didnt even know because you cant tell the difference given everyone is so wasted...
Quote attributable to Minister for Creative Industries Danny Pearson  

“Our music industry creates and supports thousands of jobs – injecting millions into our economy. The programs will revive our music culture by supporting local businesses and workers, so they can continue to do what they do best.”
Wonder if the Danny's Andrews and Pearson have actually set foot in Revs and Section 8.....injecting millions into the economy.....thats one way of putting it....

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 06, 2021, 03:16:44 pm
There was the photo that made the news of some of the protesters doing lines after the protest and the point was made that it was pretty hypocritical. Whilst the authenticity of that photo may be debated, the odds are that some of the protesters are happy to smoke, inhale or inject drugs despite warnings that they may be cut or mixed with dangerous substances (leaving aside the dangers posed by the pure product).

Can confirm, have seen video footage of two guys in high viz snorting white powder behind a wall out the front of someones house.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 06, 2021, 03:21:44 pm
On a side note, regarding our 4000 bed ICU facilities, I think people are mis-representing the sheer volume of work and money that would be possible to deliver it.


I think its a bit mad to expect this to occur irrespective of what people think was promised.

Politicians tend to use qualifying statements.  Funding 4000 beds is fine, but where and looking at delivering it, and actually delivering it are two different beasts. 

Where are you going to get the appropriate facility that can handle the requirements from every single level of health care?

Don't get too sucked into this political hyperbole people.  The ICU beds are an iceberg situation.

1.  4000 beds is enormous.  I work at a 10 story hospital in the eastern suburbs that doesnt have capacity for more than 1000 TOTAL hospital beds in one building (being generous).

2.  we have talked about specialised nursing already.  Doctors who specialise in treatment are in as short a supply as nurses, so having a dedicated ICU facility outside of a hospital is pie in the sky stuff which will absolutely leave us with a shortage of staff to do the non covid stuff. 

3.  Where can this facility exist outside of our hospital network taking account the aforementioned, whilst still adequately allowing safe places for donning and doffing PPE for staff, treating patients in a clinically safe environment, with access to emergency operating theatres at a moments notice, with all the appropriate drugs on hand, and the refrigeration to house them, the cleaning facilities for people to adequately sterilise this location, as well as meal prepping facilities, storing fluids in a controlled environment where they arent subjected to wild swings in temperature as well as house all the relevant systems for health information management that are both secure, and functional for the admissions, transfer and discharge of patients with all the telephony available, as well as the support networks for staff to grab a tea or coffee safely and go to the bath room, shower etc. 

Now that I have highlighted the impossible task of the above, we have patients with varying needs.  Some are mental health.  Some peadiatric, others will be natal, and neo natal, and then you need an entire different army of staff to come with for those areas, because as we have touched on before, this is not a one sized fits all approach.

So, any talk, of 4000 beds, its fraught with danger.  You want to hang Andrews out to dry, sure, go for it, but any reliance on that, is our worst case covid scenario, and any facility that is setup to make use of 4000 "pop up" beds, if actually required means the pandemic has taken a turn for the worse, and we are going to be seeing an alarmingly high death rate.

I was privy to this new build hospital that went up and opened in october of 2014.  This is one of the best facilities in the state, and it is still woefully inadequate to be a site for these 4000 beds.  We only have 20 icu beds.  We might be able to expand up to 31 utilising our Surgical Suites and utilising our Cardiology wards single bed rooms (we have less than 10 of those which overlap with our ICU).  That might be where a good few hundred of the additional ICU capacity comes from across ALL hospitals that currently exist in the network, but flippant political hyperbole surrounding what the network can do, is not helpful to anyone and pretending that 4000 beds was promised stamped and then not delivered is most likely a massive stretch.  Its also worth remembering at the time, that mikakos was still in the system, and that we were travelling down a road where the assumption was that each and every covid positive patient was going to require ECMO, and intubation.

The game has changed.  The breaks we have put on this has achieved much better outcomes than people think for a wider population of people and if we end up with 4000 people in an ICU bed at one time in this state, i would hate to be covid positive in that equation.




Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 06, 2021, 04:21:42 pm
I think with Dan the problem is he hasnt delivered anything......if he had delivered 100 new ICU beds with new staff/equipment everyone would have been happy much less 4000 which I agree is a huge task more akin to a country like China where they can knock up a lot of hospitals very quickly given their huge infrastructure setup plus train up staff quicker due to the huge population.
Victoria has about 800 ICU beds and NSW a few more than 840 last I read and Gladys was also talking up another 1000 beds...
My problem with Dan and Gladys is treating the public like fools......
Where is the quarantine facility that was promised?........Dan has had since the 1st wave to improve facilities in Victoria but its easier to lockdown than spend money unless its on drug dens. Dont make extreme false promises when the crisis is this serious, provide beds as promised and not false comfort.
 


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 06, 2021, 04:21:49 pm
Thanks for the insight @Thryleon

I was at the CSIRO / Synchrotron a few weeks back, nearby to the new Victorian Heart Hospital and was impressed by how quickly it has risen out of the ground. It's costing upwards of $600M to build and counting, will 'only' have 206 beds with 20 of those being ICU. I think by the time it has opened it will have taken about 5 years to build, and it's small compared to say Monash Medical Centre.

I never understood the 4000 ICU bed references, and they never talk about the timeframe. Unless someone in health is being tricky with the definition of ICU, of course an ICU bed in a political / public service / bureaucratic definition might mean just that, the bed with a ventilator and not much else! ;)

I think Australia's total ICU capacity is only about 3500 ICU beds.

Those types of declarations are happening in every state at many levels from politicians to public servants, is it a sign they are planning for this pandemic to persist much much longer than we already think is way too long?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 06, 2021, 04:27:40 pm
Where is the quarantine facility that was promised?........Dan has had since the 1st wave to improve facilities in Victoria but its easier to lockdown than spend money unless its on drug dens.
I think you missed a trick, from any state public servant there was no when in any of those declarations, that doesn't mean never, but realistically it doesn't mean tomorrow either!

I'm pegging they'll build more ICU beds, but it's something they were warned to do almost two decades ago when Sars hit in preparation for now, so the question is will it be ready for the next big one?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 06, 2021, 04:48:17 pm
Can also confirm across 3 hospitals out in the east, we had expanded our ability to "flex" ICU up by 30%.

Still way under 100 beds total, but to say they have done "nothing" again is selling everything a bit short.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 06, 2021, 04:54:13 pm
I think you missed a trick, from any state public servant there was no when in any of those declarations, that doesn't mean never, but realistically it doesn't mean tomorrow either!

I'm pegging they'll build more ICU beds, but it's something they were warned to do almost two decades ago when Sars hit in preparation for now, so the question is will it be ready for the next big one?
We need them now not in ten years time......we have had the luxury of watching the rest of the world deal with the pandemic given our geographical location and we knew that come winter like everywhere else in the world it was coming back with a new format in Delta but Dan was doing a Nero and fiddling instead of building and training.
Dan thought Lockdowns would do the job and he could get ground zero with cases because it worked before with the original less virulent CoVid19 so I dont need the safety net of more beds/staff.
When he promised 4000 beds those in the know all laughed because he left out all the associated requirements like Staff, Hospitals/facilities to put the beds and staff in...was only the poor Joe average public who got fooled by this compulsive liar
that we were going to get the backup plan to lockdowns that we needed.
Now we have a lot of cases, lockdown has failed to quell he numbers and Hospitals are crammed....I'll give you the tip too that one inner Melb Hospital ED was that full with Vaccine side effect patients that other patients had to be moved to other Hospitals.
Its a mess and Dan has to wear the responsibility like Gladys did and by the way I dont vote for either Labor or Liberal.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 06, 2021, 05:04:53 pm
Can also confirm across 3 hospitals out in the east, we had expanded our ability to "flex" ICU up by 30%.

Still way under 100 beds total, but to say they have done "nothing" again is selling everything a bit short.


Beds are the easy bit.....
From the Age..but behind a paywall...
Doctors say Victoria’s intensive care units would be forced to ration specialist staff and have them treat many more patients to cope if hundreds of seriously ill people hit hospitals by mid-December as predicted.
Without properly trained ICU staff that take 12 months to do a Critical Care Cert at Melb Uni then nothing works.......Nurse have to fork out 11k without a Govt subsidized place.
I want Beds in Hospitals with properly trained Nurses and Critical Care specialist Doctors.......Dan has been told what it takes he just failed to deliver, he wont even give Nurses a CoVid payment.
Not good enough in a Pandemic when he knew 12 months ago he need to be building/training....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on October 06, 2021, 06:38:15 pm
and by the way I dont vote for either Labor or Liberal.

Do you allocate preferences on the ballot paper? If so, the likely you do.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on October 06, 2021, 06:40:43 pm
I am tickled the tackle evoked much pearl-clutching from right-wingers though. They're quite happy to see a bit of retribution or "attitude adjustment" inflicted on leftwing protesters, e.g. BLM protesters.  But when it's one of their own "freedom fighters", the strongarm tactics they love to see police use are suddenly inhumane. 

What "attitude adjustment" was inflicted on the BLM protesters? Are you referring only to the United States, more broadly the world, or what has gone on in Melbourne?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 06, 2021, 06:44:03 pm
I don't vote, period.  Bailed out of that obligation
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on October 06, 2021, 07:52:54 pm
..................................................... and by the way I dont vote for either Labor or Liberal.

Hmm, so no Labor, no Liberal. You're almost certainly not a Greens voter, which tends to leave independents, fringe parties, or Katter / Palmer / Centre Alliance types.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 06, 2021, 09:00:54 pm
spf, the US are world leaders of authoritarian right-wing rule, but as always where the US goes, Australian right-wingers follow.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 06, 2021, 09:08:46 pm
Hmm, so no Labor, no Liberal. You're almost certainly not a Greens voter, which tends to leave independents, fringe parties, or Katter / Palmer / Centre Alliance types.


Obvious you don't know a lot about voting options.  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on October 06, 2021, 09:26:52 pm
What Are The Potential Downsides To mRNA Vaccines For COVID-19?

https://youtu.be/ZDrgu4w4pp8
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 06, 2021, 10:31:44 pm
What Are The Potential Downsides To mRNA Vaccines For COVID-19?
They often leave out one important point when discussing the limits of knowledge in studies. With any drug or vaccine the size of the cohort produces a synthetic result similar to a longer or shorter term study, so a 350,000 cohort for 120 days "might" produces results that scale to be be equivalent to a 35,000 cohort for 1200 days.

I write 'might' because it is variable based on the long term characteristics of a disease. For example a disease that presents in hours versus one that presents in weeks. So the ratio isn't a hard and fast indicator, but the scaling effect is still very real.

The reason for this is that while science talks about side-effects and immunity appearing on average, the side-effects really present across time as part of a normal distribution. That is some small percentage of any initial long term effects would present early well ahead of the average FWHM. So the bigger the study, the sooner you know there will be some long term side effects.

(https://miro.medium.com/max/1200/1*IdGgdrY_n_9_YfkaCh-dag.png)

In the case of Sars-CoV-2 vaccines they are being issued in the hundreds of millions of doses, larger than any cohort study ever conducted before. Due to the high number of doses issued, early acute long term side-effect cases would already be presenting in significant numbers, not in tens or hundreds of people, not one here or there as FB or Tic Tok try to make out, but in hundreds of thousands or even millions of people already. The area in green on the left of this graph.

When hundreds of millions of vaccines doses have already been issued, those little green areas on the lead or tail of the bell curve graph would represent millions of people with early or late presentation of acute long term side-effects if any existed. As yet they just haven't presented in any significant number, and are unlikely to now that so many doses are issued, but as the doctor points out correctly the risk can never be zero.

So you can take solace the vaccines are likely very very safe, perhaps the safest humanity has ever made!

Just an aside, if the graph was global COVID cases, those little green areas would be the number of people dying, at the moment that sits at about 4.8M deaths!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 06, 2021, 10:56:47 pm
Hmm, so no Labor, no Liberal. You're almost certainly not a Greens voter, which tends to leave independents, fringe parties, or Katter / Palmer / Centre Alliance types.

That's very strong on me not voting for the Greens...how did you arrive at that theory?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on October 06, 2021, 11:04:39 pm
Dr. John Campbell discusses Covid immunity - Natural versus vaccine immunity.

https://youtu.be/9bamaEMftg4

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on October 07, 2021, 07:18:55 am
That's very strong on me not voting for the Greens...how did you arrive at that theory?

Just reading your material over 15 or 16 years, you never struck me as a Greens kind of guy.

As an aside, once you remove the 2 major parties plus the 3rd wheel (used to be the Democrats, now the Greens) there isn't really all that much left. I think 2 major parties plus very little else is an appalling state of affairs. There's very little genuine choice. Much better IMO the way it is in some European countries where 5 or so parties get decent votes and hold a good amount of power. The situation in the US is worse.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 07, 2021, 07:37:48 am
Just reading your material over 15 or 16 years, you never struck me as a Greens kind of guy.

As an aside, once you remove the 2 major parties plus the 3rd wheel (used to be the Democrats, now the Greens) there isn't really all that much left. I think 2 major parties plus very little else is an appalling state of affairs. There's very little genuine choice. Much better IMO the way it is in some European countries where 5 or so parties get decent votes and hold a good amount of power. The situation in the US is worse.

I can't comment for all nations but in Greece you end up with 3 or 4 representations of the same stuff anyway, and see people changing parties accordingly.

Kke were far left, pasok moderately left and over the years its not uncommon for them to alternate leaving people more capable of being hoodwinked into voting for the wrong party because reps change parties more frequently and some may not notice.

Politics is broken more because they provide people the illusion of choice then maintain the status quo, and the rulers are far too disconnected from the true lifestyle of Joe average.  I wonder how these lockdowns would occur in situations where leaders had young children and not a device for each one to use for home schooling in an equation where IT hardware wasn't easy to come by and technology is a luxury purchase?

My sister has 3 kids in primary school and luckily for her I was able to repurpose some items marked for disposal and give her access two laptops she could use for them else they were dividing up 2 computers among 5 people to use for home schooling and working from home.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on October 07, 2021, 07:59:08 am
What are your opinions on Yanis Varoufakis ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 07, 2021, 08:30:10 am
Dr. John Campbell discusses Covid immunity - Natural versus vaccine immunity.
Dr Campbell's conclusions make an even stronger case for cross vaccination, and they support the idea that B and T cell development is even stronger in people who have had any two exposures to either, Sars-CoV-2, AZ or Pfizer.

This isn't new information, there have been many virologists and epidemiologists pushing this stance for many months now, but it's being largely ignored by the media and as such it gathers zero political momentum.

Interestingly, the new GSK and Merck wonder drugs for treating Sars-CoV-2, might inhibit or diminish B and T cell production, the studies looking into that are really just beginning. I don't know if those concerns are founded in any substantial science or not, just that it is being looked at, the suggestion does have a feel to it not unlike the vaccine disinformation that Merck and GSK happily allowed to circulate early on, a bit of doubt about competitor products never hurts the bottom line!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 07, 2021, 08:43:47 am
My sister has 3 kids in primary school and luckily for her I was able to repurpose some items marked for disposal and give her access two laptops she could use for them else they were dividing up 2 computers among 5 people to use for home schooling and working from home.
As an aside to this last point, I've been helping guys at work setup Raspberry Pi 4b for use at home for their kids and grandchildren. You can get a kit including a case and cables for under about $150, and you end up with a NUC style Debian Linux box that runs LibreOffice, etc., on any HDMI capable display.  The biggest expense is often keyboard and mouse if you have to add them in assuming you can't get hold of old ones, the Logitech K400s work quite well as a combo and can be found quite cheaply. Because Raspian is targeted at young kids learning to be coders, even though oldies can use it for IoT dev, it's setup to be quite simple to manage compared to a normal Debian distro, and has some useful generic controls for printers, WiFi, etc., etc.. You still need to have a home WiFi or Ethernet setup, because at that price there is no real-time clock in those devices, so they get the date and time off the network. Being Linux, and being Raspberry PI, they are also easy to pre-configure in kiosk mode so that a power cycle cleans all the garbage.

In a decade or so we might have a whole generation of tech heads come out of this pandemic!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 07, 2021, 09:52:47 am
Epidemiologist warns Covid will spread ‘like wildfire’ in Victoria if rules are relaxed now (https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/epidemiologist-warns-covid-will-spread-like-wildfire-in-victoria-if-rules-are-relaxed-now/news-story/7defd0fe091c1e4f1f472363a407e555),news.com.au

Quote
An epidemiologist has poured cold water on calls by business groups and others to overhaul Victoria’s isolation rules, saying any change would cause the virus to spread “like wildfire”.

Nancy Baxter also says the reason the state’s outbreak is being controlled is because of the stay-at-home requirement, despite the focus on vaccination.

...

“The lower we can keep the numbers, the safer we can keep our hospitals, so when we do open up, we have the space to put the patients that are going to increase, because because of openings.”

Dr Baxter said before the AFL grand final long weekend she hoped Victoria would beat predictions by getting vaccinated as quickly as possible and bring numbers down.

But a failure by Victorians to abide by rules helped drive the outbreak.

“All of us know people who are not following the rules and most of the time they get away with it,” she said.

“But the more people in our community that have COVID, the more the chances that they’re not going to get away with it and they’re going to fuel the outbreak.

“I do think the narrative is a bit precious that somehow the government is to blame for the increase in people in isolation, when actually it’s because we’re not following the rules and the cases are spreading, and so there’s more people in isolation.”
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 07, 2021, 10:06:17 am
EB, looks like the Mu variant has been beaten by Delta: How the once-feared mu variant all but disappeared (https://www.salon.com/2021/10/06/how-the-once-feared-mu-variant-all-but-disappeared/), Salon.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 07, 2021, 10:10:35 am
EB, looks like the Mu variant has been beaten by Delta: How the once-feared mu variant all but disappeared (https://www.salon.com/2021/10/06/how-the-once-feared-mu-variant-all-but-disappeared/), Salon.
That's good news Mav, that looked nasty... how you doing with those Irish nurses ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 07, 2021, 10:20:34 am
That's good news Mav, that looked nasty... how you doing with those Irish nurses ;)

There’ll have to be a flood of them to give me a decent chance.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 07, 2021, 10:26:01 am
What are your opinions on Yanis Varoufakis ?

I actually thought quite highly of him from the few times I heard him speak, but the reality is as follows.  As an Australian born to Greek migrants, I recognise that Greeces national politics are driven by geopolitical factors, which leaves governing Greece stuck between a rock and a hard place, where you are constantly having to bend to the whims of others as an otherwise small economic and military player in a region that is dominated by your neighbours.  I am also more likely to be shaped by the opinions of my family members who have their own opinions driven by their own anecdotal experiences with life.  I use their political spectrum as an example, because now that you mention Varoufakis, I forgot all about the middle left Syriza, who have been dominated by policies and ideologies more alligned with far left ideology.  The best and brightest minds have been fleeing Greece for generations, and their workforce hampered by rampant nepotism.  They have a long way to go as a nation, but the challenges are enormous.  Makes me wonder whether or not the monarchy in exile was in the nations best interests because since then they have had a military Junta, and then decades of left leaning politicians, which has resulted in a rather dramatic shift back towards nationalism almost a necessity. 

Anyway, Im glad he resigned when he did, as it showed him as being one of the few constituants of politics who seems to have left Greek politics with their reputation relatively in tact, BUT even that fact depends on whom you ask!


As an aside to this last point, I've been helping guys at work setup Raspberry Pi 4b for use at home for their kids and grandchildren. You can get a kit including a case and cables for under about $150, and you end up with a NUC style Debian Linux box that runs LibreOffice, etc., on any HDMI capable display.  The biggest expense is often keyboard and mouse if you have to add them in assuming you can't get hold of old ones, the Logitech K400s work quite well as a combo and can be found quite cheaply. Because Raspian is targeted at young kids learning to be coders, even though oldies can use it for IoT dev, it's setup to be quite simple to manage compared to a normal Debian distro, and has some useful generic controls for printers, WiFi, etc., etc.. You still need to have a home WiFi or Ethernet setup, because at that price there is no real-time clock in those devices, so they get the date and time off the network. Being Linux, and being Raspberry PI, they are also easy to pre-configure in kiosk mode so that a power cycle cleans all the garbage.

In a decade or so we might have a whole generation of tech heads come out of this pandemic!

Future generations are by default more involved with technology which would have occurred with or without the pandemic (evidenced by our last 30 years), and the global chip shortage isnt solely about computers.  money is only half the problem when an organisation like ours is waiting greater than 6 months for new devices because HP cant supply to keep up with demand. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on October 07, 2021, 10:31:45 am
Thanks Thry.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on October 07, 2021, 11:53:47 am
EU could start review of Covid pill ‘in days’ - FROM THE H/S (this is the 'anti-viral drugs being spoken about recently)

The EU’s medicines watchdog could within days start a review of an oral Covid drug produced by the US pharmaceutical firm Merck, a senior official said on Tuesday local time.

Merck said last week that its drug molnupiravir was shown to reduce hospitalisations by 50 per cent, bringing closer the dream of a simple pill to treat the coronavirus pandemic.

“What I can say is that indeed we will be considering whether to start a rolling review for this compound in the next days,” Marco Cavaleri, head of vaccine strategy at the European Medicines Agency, told journalists.

Cavaleri said the Amsterdam-based agency was aware of some “top-line results that are being communicated by the company” about its new drug.

Merck said on Friday it planned to submit an application to the US FDA and other regulatory bodies worldwide for the drug.

It said trial results on 770 patients showed there were no deaths among patients who received the drug compared to eight deaths in the placebo group.

Under a rolling review, the EMA can speed up drug approvals by examining safety and efficacy data as they are released, instead of waiting until after a formal application for authorisation is filed by the manufacturer.

Approval can take several months.

The Merck pill has been hailed as a possible breakthrough because until now Covid therapeutics — which treat the disease as opposed to vaccines, which prevent it — have so far been administered intravenously.

The EMA meanwhile raised hopes that vaccine booster doses could offer a long period of protection against Covid.

The agency on Monday authorised a third booster dose of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine for people aged 18 and over, six months after their initial two jabs, amid fears that it offers diminishing protection.

“What we’re seeing at least with this vaccine is that the immune response is indeed much higher than what we’ve seen after the second dose,” Cavaleri said.

“Which means that potentially we will have quite remarkable amounts of neutralising antibodies, also for much longer than six months.”
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on October 07, 2021, 11:56:47 am
Dr. John Campbell discusses 'Antiviral game changer' - Merck and Ridgeback.


https://youtu.be/qVW2QqHUJUw
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 07, 2021, 12:07:25 pm
How come we aren't seeing a flurry of social media posts about Sweden and Denmark halting the use of Moderna for u18s.

Given how quickly social media and news media piled on AZ it seems a tad selective in reporting?

I've been posting here that the side-effects although different for Pfizer/Moderna are as comparable common as those for AZ, it's been known for almost 6 months since the initial trial results surfaced.

Why are Sweden and Denmark taking this stance now?

Is it just coincidence that it happens just as GSK and Merck issue remedies, am I justified in being cynical?

Someone always profits from a little bit of corporate doubt.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 07, 2021, 12:32:15 pm
How come we aren't seeing a flurry of social media posts about Sweden and Denmark halting the use of Moderna for u18s.

Given how quickly social media and news media piled on AZ it seems a tad selective in reporting?

I've been posting here that the side-effects although different for Pfizer/Moderna are as comparable common as those for AZ, it's been known for almost 6 months since the initial trial results surfaced.

Why are Sweden and Denmark taking this stance now?

Is it just coincidence that it happens just as GSK and Merck issue remedies, am I justified in being cynical?

Someone always profits from a little bit of corporate doubt.

It was the second story on the heraldsun website.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 07, 2021, 12:40:25 pm
I'm guessing it would have been number 1 if the HS wasn't contractually bound to run a Dictator Dan article in the top slot  :))
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 07, 2021, 12:46:43 pm
It was the second story on the heraldsun website.
The coverage is trivial compared the AZ blood clots saga.

I remain convinced some of this rumour comes from within the industry, it's the same tactic we saw used against AZ, J&J , Novavax and Sputnik. The Moderna side-effects were exposed in the clinical trials and they are virtually identical to Pfizer, which in number are virtually identical to AZ, J&J, Novavax and Sputnik.

That little bit of doubt means that countries change what they buy, this is what it is all about, it has nothing to do with real world effects or emergencies.

Notice recently things have gone quiet locally about AZ, because as the vaccinations levels increase it turns out for some reason as yet unknown locally issued AZ is even safer than OS results! There is some thought it comes down to genetics and also domestic trends in other related medications, like the type of pain killers we use here compared to other countries.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 07, 2021, 02:35:17 pm
^^  follow moderna's share price and that will give you a better answer.

Contrast with Pfizer.

Pre pandemic vs post pandemic.

Then you realise that AZ is being produced by CSL and the CSL share price hasnt really taken much of a hit during covid.

;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 07, 2021, 04:34:05 pm
^^  follow moderna's share price and that will give you a better answer.
A lot of the share price stuff is driven by very short term players, the long game is very different, it's hard to detangle.

I think AZ was quite clever, by sub-licensing manufacturing to many governments they basically had a bunch of AZ compatible facilities built around the globe at someone else's expense, but the product those facilities make is licensed. Now if AZ invent some new drug or treatment for whatever disease or treatment, those locations are already invested in AZ technology will be unlikely to look at alternatives, they'll just license the next AZ product by default. They already have the kit, they already have the skilled staff, they already have most of the know how, they just need the license and they are up and away!

I think it is smarter than the Moderna / Pfizer closed shop approach, to scale up manufacture those two have to build new facilities at their own risk. So what do they do when something like GSK or Merck put that investment at risk, how do they fight back?

By contrast AZ doesn't have to, they didn't foot the bill, the only risk is a short term royalty for a massive long term benefit!

The detractors are really only looking at the short term, and not the long game. The Pfizer/Moderna approach looks more profitable in the short term as long as the existing established product is not undercut. So they have to undermine all the alternatives and keep investing in their own capacity.

Might be a short selling opportunity in there somewhere?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 07, 2021, 04:45:24 pm
Love it! An anti-vaxxer was walking down Hollywood Boulevard using a bullhorn to spread her nonsense about Covid being a hoax. But she learned a valuable lesson: don't ask a question to which you don't know the answer, even if (or especially when) the question is a rhetorical one:

Quote
ANTI-VAXX PROTESTER: Do you see all of these homeless people around. Are they dead in the street with COVID? Hell no. Why?

HOMELESS PERSON (walking by): Because I’m vaccinated you dumb fu#k.

Man Demolishes Vaccine Opponent's Argument About Homeless People In Just 6 Words (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/homeless-response-vaccine-opponent_n_615df0ade4b0896dd1ac2aec), Huffpost.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 07, 2021, 05:17:36 pm
A lot of the share price stuff is driven by very short term players, the long game is very different, it's hard to detangle.

I think AZ was quite clever, by sub-licensing manufacturing to many governments they basically had a bunch of AZ compatible facilities built around the globe at someone else's expense, but the product those facilities make is licensed. Now if AZ invent some new drug or treatment for whatever disease or treatment, those locations are already invested in AZ technology will be unlikely to look at alternatives, they'll just license the next AZ product by default. They already have the kit, they already have the skilled staff, they already have most of the know how, they just need the license and they are up and away!

I think it is smarter than the Moderna / Pfizer closed shop approach, to scale up manufacture those two have to build new facilities at their own risk. So what do they do when something like GSK or Merck put that investment at risk, how do they fight back?

By contrast AZ doesn't have to, they didn't foot the bill, the only risk is a short term royalty for a massive long term benefit!

The detractors are really only looking at the short term, and not the long game. The Pfizer/Moderna approach looks more profitable in the short term as long as the existing established product is not undercut. So they have to undermine all the alternatives and keep investing in their own capacity.

Might be a short selling opportunity in there somewhere?
You didn't check did you?

Dont obsfucate the most likely answer to your own question.

Pfizer in 2017 was trading at $31.79 us.  In 2021 it hit a high of $51.86 after a low of only $27.00 when covid hit.

Moderna however after being at a low of $18.60 5 years ago, is now trading at a whopping $302.42 USD per share and is down from a 52 week high of $497.49.

;)

THAT's why no one cares to report on Modernas side effects.

Dont believe the noise you hear on social media.  Its sponsored propaganda, and its a powerful vehicle because it caters to an audience who are capable of liking and sharing the content.  Jump on, and you will see a variety of content that all takes advantage of the algorithm.  The more you read about a topic, the more you see about that same topic.

The majority of users are too involved in it to look through the crap.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 07, 2021, 08:16:44 pm
Dont believe the noise you hear on social media. 
I'm not obfuscating anything, I hypothesised about this several times over the last year and have remained consistent.

I'm not on social media much, I really only go there when I need to get hold of someone via Messenger. Much of what I see and comment on comes from friends or family members trying to show me stuff.

The short sell comment was specifically aimed at Moderna.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on October 07, 2021, 08:44:17 pm
Love it! An anti-vaxxer was walking down Hollywood Boulevard using a bullhorn to spread her nonsense about Covid being a hoax. But she learned a valuable lesson: don't ask a question to which you don't know the answer, even if (or especially when) the question is a rhetorical one:

Man Demolishes Vaccine Opponent's Argument About Homeless People In Just 6 Words (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/homeless-response-vaccine-opponent_n_615df0ade4b0896dd1ac2aec), Huffpost.

So, if vaccines (these current cv19 ones) are so effective, why the hate and heat on the unvaxxed to get jabbed?

You're safe as houses right?

(or perhaps you've seen the data out of Israel, the UK etc and you too appreciate they're a waste of bloody space against delta and likely future variants and will require ongoing multi annual jabs just to keep the drug company coffers topped up?)

Buyer's remorse.

QED.

ps who's hanging out for the Pfizermectin pill?

Let me know what your missus says.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 07, 2021, 09:21:35 pm
I wonder if an average student was offered tuition that would guarantee 90% in an exam, would s/he say, “No thanks, that isn’t 100% so it’s no good”.

In a binary world, I guess that would be the way. If you don’t get 100%, you must have got 0%. There’s nothing in between.

I can see now why you think Ivermectin can compete with vaccines. Ivermectin's 0% success rate is the same as the 90% effectiveness of the vaccines as neither is 100%. It makes sense, I guess.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on October 07, 2021, 09:40:34 pm
I wonder if an average student was offered tuition that would guarantee 90% in an exam, would s/he say, “No thanks, that isn’t 100% so it’s no good”.

In a binary world, I guess that would be the way. If you don’t get 100%, you must have got 0%. There’s nothing in between.

I can see now why you think Ivermectin can compete with vaccines. Ivermectin's 0% success rate is the same as the 90% effectiveness of the vaccines as neither is 100%. It makes sense, I guess.

Your analogy is a little skewed.

Rather then comparing  a pear to pineapple you need to confirm first if the tuition which ensures a 90% mark comes completely risk free. Or is there like the vaccine some chance of unknown and possible health risks/side effects that won’t be known for 5 plus years if you take that tuition?

That changes the question somewhat don’t you think but thats a fairer analogy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 07, 2021, 09:59:37 pm
possible health risks/side effects that won’t be known for 5 plus years if you take that
Where did you get that 5 years?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 07, 2021, 10:01:59 pm
I guess if we were in the Middle Ages, we'd be fearful of the "chance of unknown and possible health risks/side effects that won’t be known for 5 plus years". We'd also be scared to death when eclipses happened and the Church would put anyone to death who had the temerity to suggest we evolved from animals. Thank God we don't live in those times, hey ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 07, 2021, 10:03:44 pm
So, if vaccines (these current cv19 ones) are so effective, why the hate and heat on the unvaxxed to get jabbed?
Because people who genuinely can't be vaccinated aren't just collateral damage for your desire for profit and freedom!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 07, 2021, 10:05:40 pm
So, if vaccines (these current cv19 ones) are so effective, why the hate and heat on the unvaxxed to get jabbed?

You're safe as houses right?

This is the argument of the selfish and ignorant.

Think about those who can't get jabbed
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on October 07, 2021, 10:59:48 pm
Where did you get that 5 years?

Plucked a figure in saying 5 - I’m sure you know I was implying the long term side effects are unknown.

I hope you can tell me I’m wrong in all honesty like most  I would be very relieved to know it has no long term health effects for all age groups but doubtful you can provide that evidence.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 07, 2021, 11:29:15 pm
Your analogy is a little skewed.

Rather then comparing  a pear to pineapple you need to confirm first if the tuition which ensures a 90% mark comes completely risk free. Or is there like the vaccine some chance of unknown and possible health risks/side effects that won’t be known for 5 plus years if you take that tuition?

That changes the question somewhat don’t you think but thats a fairer analogy.

That's the issue right there!  Why on earth would health risks or side effects become apparent after five years?

All of the COVID vaccines, well apart from the Chinese and Russian varieties, have undergone more testing than any previously developed vaccine.

I've had vaccinations/inocculations for polio, measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough, tetanus, diptheria, tuberculosis, seasonal flu and probably several others.  None of them have gone through the same testing regime as the COVID vaccinations yet I'm still alive and kicking 60-70 years later.  That probably wouldn't be the case if I hadn't had those vaccinations.  It's called progress.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 07, 2021, 11:30:49 pm
Plucked a figure in saying 5 - I’m sure you know I was implying the long term side effects are unknown.

I hope you can tell me I’m wrong in all honesty like most  I would be very relieved to know it has no long term health effects for all age groups but doubtful you can provide that evidence.

Ok lets play this what if game.

What are the long term effects of getting covid naturally?

Considering we don't have long term effects of this vaccine, let me propose an alternative.

Can you show me evidence of long term side effects from any other vaccine?

Why should this one be different?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 08, 2021, 07:55:51 am

Can you show me evidence of long term side effects from any other vaccine?
Other than the fact most of us won't ever get polio, the tracking chips still enable FB to send me Ads for things I was talking about! ;D

On a more serious note, I see this long term bad side-effects meme as a cross between Long COVID and Vaccination.

It's built on a social media misunderstanding or misrepresentation that Long COVID effects 'appear' after some extended period, as opposed to having the virus do some immediate damage now that degrades health further over time potentially lasting a lifetime!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 08, 2021, 08:43:56 am
1838 new cases and 5 deaths for Victoria.  The place NOT to be.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 08, 2021, 10:39:22 am
1838 new cases and 5 deaths for Victoria.  The place NOT to be.

Although our hospitalisations and deaths are significantly lower than NSW at the same number of infections.

I’m not sure why that is; earlier diagnosis perhaps?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 08, 2021, 10:42:11 am
Although our hospitalisations and deaths are significantly lower than NSW at the same number of infections.

I’m not sure why that is; earlier diagnosis perhaps?

We have a higher vaccination rate at the same stage.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 08, 2021, 10:52:55 am
We have a higher vaccination rate at the same stage.

I wasn’t sure about that but that would explain it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 08, 2021, 11:11:01 am
To help drag us out of the Middle Ages, let’s see how science explains that Covid vaccines don’t cause problems that arise years later:

No, COVID vaccines don’t stay in your body for years (https://theconversation.com/no-covid-vaccines-dont-stay-in-your-body-for-years-169247), The Conversation.

Quote
A common myth of vaccines that has appeared in recent months is the accusation they remain active in the body for extended periods of time – a claim which has increased vaccine hesitancy in some people.

However, vaccines are cleared from your body in mere days or weeks. It’s the immune response against the SARS-CoV-2 virus that appears to last for a long time.

This isn’t due to the vaccines themselves remaining in the body. Instead, the vaccines stimulate our immune system and teach it how to respond if we’re ever exposed to the coronavirus.

If you’re not an anti-vaxxer, educate yourself so you don’t spread misinformation and conspiracy theories. If you are an anti-vaxxer, STFU.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 08, 2021, 11:44:18 am
To help drag us out of the Middle Ages, let’s see how science explains that Covid vaccines don’t cause problems that arise years later:

No, COVID vaccines don’t stay in your body for years (https://theconversation.com/no-covid-vaccines-dont-stay-in-your-body-for-years-169247), The Conversation.

If you’re not an anti-vaxxer, educate yourself so you don’t spread misinformation and conspiracy theories. If you are an anti-vaxxer, STFU.
Na mate, havent you seen the latest meme?  It alters your DNA...  :D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 08, 2021, 11:50:18 am
Maybe we’d all be better off if we do turn into lizard-people. Then global warming would be a godsend  O:-)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on October 08, 2021, 12:26:08 pm
To help drag us out of the Middle Ages, let’s see how science explains that Covid vaccines don’t cause problems that arise years later:

No, COVID vaccines don’t stay in your body for years (https://theconversation.com/no-covid-vaccines-dont-stay-in-your-body-for-years-169247), The Conversation.

If you’re not an anti-vaxxer, educate yourself so you don’t spread misinformation and conspiracy theories. If you are an anti-vaxxer, STFU.

If you say so.

But don’t exclude the far left Dan loving pro vaccer from that same advice. Those types can also STFU and stop acting like their a virology professor
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 08, 2021, 12:31:17 pm
Unlike the rest of us, he has the advantage of receiving advice from top epidemiologists and doctors. Even better, his information doesn’t come from Facebook or TikTok.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 08, 2021, 12:37:19 pm
No, COVID vaccines don’t stay in your body for years (https://theconversation.com/no-covid-vaccines-dont-stay-in-your-body-for-years-169247), The Conversation.
The Conversation is a ripper isn't it.

The problem it has though is that most of it's content is over the head of the nutters and conspiracy theorists, their vocabulary seems to end at 140 characters, although some of the more experienced types seem to get to 280 characters now. So even if you send them a link they'll never read past the first paragraph! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on October 08, 2021, 01:02:34 pm
Leaving aside people's likes and dislikes. voting preferences etc., the continental drift that has occurred in political discourse over the last few decades must be pretty significant if the Andrews Labor government is considered Far Left.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 08, 2021, 02:27:50 pm
Even more so if the Biden administration is considered socialist. By Australian standards, he’s about as far left as John Howard.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 08, 2021, 02:37:53 pm
Apparently VicPol is investigating Dan for not wearing a mask 🙄😷
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 08, 2021, 02:58:12 pm
Even more so if the Biden administration is considered socialist. By Australian standards, he’s about as far left as John Howard.

Biden may not be ... but his administration certainly is.  Pelosi, AOC, Harris, Kerry etc.  The chaos in Mexico, Afghanistan, IRS staff to be massively increased, 3 billion for "tree equity", free college for illegals crossing the border ... I could go on.  Now on a 36% approval rating.  They're finished   
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on October 08, 2021, 03:03:27 pm
Biden may not be ... but his administration certainly is.  Pelosi, AOC, Harris, Kerry etc.  The chaos in Mexico, Afghanistan, IRS staff to be massively increased, 3 billion for "tree equity", free college for illegals crossing the border ... I could go on.  Now on a 36% approval rating.  They're finished   

And so many thought it couldn’t get any worse then trump. Hmmmm
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on October 08, 2021, 03:14:16 pm
What the Biden administration is attempting is at the lower end of what has existed in many European countries for a long time, countries with far greater equality and far better outcomes for the majority of their populations. The sort of decency and equality of opportunity and equal access to resources that the Yanks can't even dream of. A country that is completely beholden to corporate interests and right wing masochistic jingoism. They are lost.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 08, 2021, 03:18:35 pm
Capcom, are you sure you’re a Carlton supporter?  :P

We’ve all learnt that being ahead at quarter time is no guarantee of winning. Hell, even having a decent lead at 3 quarter time has inspired little confidence. Doggies fans have learnt the same lesson.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 08, 2021, 03:26:23 pm
And so many thought it couldn’t get any worse then trump. Hmmmm

Can't wait for the mid terms.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 08, 2021, 03:28:51 pm
Capcom, are you sure you’re a Carlton supporter?  :P

We’ve all learnt that being ahead at quarter time is no guarantee of winning. Hell, even having a decent lead at 3 quarter time has inspired little confidence. Doggies fans have learnt the same lesson.

Mav, solid navy blue  8)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 08, 2021, 03:32:09 pm
Apparently VicPol is investigating Dan for not wearing a mask 🙄😷

Fined $400 for not following the CHO’s directions 🙄
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 08, 2021, 03:33:35 pm
Apparently VicPol is investigating Dan for not wearing a mask 🙄😷
Yep...There is the Masked Singer but Dan has his own show now called the Maskless Premier...
https://au.yahoo.com/news/daniel-andrews-faces-200-fine-alleged-covid-mask-breach-033115084.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 08, 2021, 03:35:22 pm
Clever play to move the focus away from his corruption investigation.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 08, 2021, 03:38:50 pm
Clever play to move the focus away from his corruption investigation.
Dan wouldnt remember if there was an investigation or if he was wearing a mask would he?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 08, 2021, 03:43:56 pm
Biden may not be ... but his administration certainly is.  Pelosi, AOC, Harris, Kerry etc.  The chaos in Mexico, Afghanistan, IRS staff to be massively increased, 3 billion for "tree equity", free college for illegals crossing the border ... I could go on.  Now on a 36% approval rating.  They're finished   

You do realise that the 37% rating is only independent voters?  Biden’s approval rating has certainly declined across the board but it is still higher than Aurangzeb’s at the same stage of his presidency.

It certainly is a nation of contrasts, my cousins in Texas are very progressive but a mate from Texas has the US flag upside down on his backpack to indicate his country is in distress 🤔
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 08, 2021, 03:56:12 pm
SA has just ordered that all workers in a healthcare setting must have a 1st dose of vaccine by 1 November to keep working and must book in for the 2nd dose within a month after that. So much for refuseniks being able to leave Victoria to dodge the mandate.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 08, 2021, 04:12:06 pm
You do realise that the 37% rating is only independent voters?  Biden’s approval rating has certainly declined across the board but it is still higher than Aurangzeb’s at the same stage of his presidency.

It certainly is a nation of contrasts, my cousins in Texas are very progressive but a mate from Texas has the US flag upside down on his backpack to indicate his country is in distress 🤔

You do realise I'm married to one and have dozens of friends in the States that I communicate with every day ... on both sides of the growing divide
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 08, 2021, 04:23:01 pm
An anti vaxxer at my work thinks that when the authorised worker restrictions are lifted he won't have to get vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 08, 2021, 04:29:46 pm
You do realise I'm married to one and have dozens of friends in the States that I communicate with every day ... on both sides of the growing divide

Yes, I did know that.  As I mentioned above, I have family in Texas and several mates who I communicate with most days.  A sizeable number of my former colleagues are ex-pat Americans too, as is one of my neighbours. 

A bit before my time, but one of my cousins was married to Atkins Jefferson McLemore, a cowboy, goldminer and newspaperman who represented Texas as delegate-at-large in the Sixty-fourth and Sixty-fifth United States congresses, 1915–19.

It is a diverse nation but the "growing divide" is no larger than it has been in the past, and considerably smaller than it was in the first half of the last century.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 08, 2021, 04:35:30 pm
Interesting trivia question:

When did the US Government impose its first mass mandated vaccination or inoculation?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 08, 2021, 04:57:33 pm
Answer: George Washington ordered the mass inoculation of the 40,000 strong Continental Army in 1777 against smallpox. This was done by infecting them with the less virulent cowpox which would immunise them against smallpox. Technically, this wasn’t a vaccination as it involved infection with a “live” virus rather than activating the immune system with inactive virus fragments or similar.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on October 08, 2021, 05:32:27 pm
An anti vaxxer at my work thinks that when the authorised worker restrictions are lifted he won't have to get vaccinated.

I wouldn’t be so quick to think he’s wrong yet. It won’t be the first time Dan back flips.

I tried to get additional labour for a city job we are on and was told labour hire is struggling as there is still a fair percentage that are not even single vaccinated - I was quite surprised tbh. The girl I go through for labour said you would be shocked at the numbers that are willing to stay home and not work then get the vaccine.
 
In fairness especially early days I wasn’t keen on it either and was really against my children taking it but as we all love travelling interstate and I need to go on site from time to time the decision was taken from me. Once my kids decided to get it I was always going to follow despite admitting parts of the handling of it I made me feel uneasy.

Anyhow I got it but I guess if you don’t have commitments maybe live alone and have the cash to sit idle you could stand firm for a few more months and see how things play out.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 08, 2021, 06:07:11 pm
I wouldn’t be so quick to think he’s wrong yet. It won’t be the first time Dan back flips.

I tried to get additional labour for a city job we are on and was told labour hire is struggling as there is still a fair percentage that are not even single vaccinated - I was quite surprised tbh. The girl I go through for labour said you would be shocked at the numbers that are willing to stay home and not work then get the vaccine.
 
In fairness especially early days I wasn’t keen on it either and was really against my children taking it but as we all love travelling interstate and I need to go on site from time to time the decision was taken from me. Once my kids decided to get it I was always going to follow despite admitting parts of the handling of it I made me feel uneasy.

Anyhow I got it but I guess if you don’t have commitments maybe live alone and have the cash to sit idle you could stand firm for a few more months and see how things play out.

That's the thing isn't it; a choice between getting somewhere close to normal or staying as we are now.  I know where I'd rather be.

I wasn't sure whether it would be constitutional but all Victorian members of parliament have to produce evidence of vaccination before they can attend parliament now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on October 08, 2021, 07:57:04 pm
That's the thing isn't it; a choice between getting somewhere close to normal or staying as we are now.  I know where I'd rather be.

I wasn't sure whether it would be constitutional but all Victorian members of parliament have to produce evidence of vaccination before they can attend parliament now.

True. I have got to the point where I caved in - just cant live this sort of locked up existence for much longer. I miss my mates and my extended family terribly. The little things that i used to take for granted like catching up for a BBQ or a few beers I really miss the most. Just cant wait to have face to face conversation with those close to me. 
  
And it regards to parliament reckon there would have been bloodshed if they had a different set of rules then us. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 08, 2021, 08:13:07 pm
True. I have got to the point where I caved in - just cant live this sort of locked up existence for much longer. I miss my mates and my extended family terribly. The little things that i used to take for granted like catching up for a BBQ or a few beers I really miss the most. Just cant wait to have face to face conversation with those close to me. 

As the record holder for the longest locked down city in the world, no surprise.  The worst run state in the commonwealth  >:D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on October 08, 2021, 08:19:41 pm
As the record holder for the longest locked down city in the world, no surprise.  The worst run state in the commonwealth  >:D

I'm starting to swing to that view myself- would never have believed it before this.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 08, 2021, 08:38:45 pm
I'm starting to swing to that view myself- would never have believed it before this.

You'd get a lesser sentence for murder
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 08, 2021, 08:48:23 pm
I'm starting to swing to that view myself- would never have believed it before this.
Ambulance service is near collapse now as well, call centre overwhelmed and waiting times at a critical level.
Army been called in to supply drivers, the call centre I believe has also had to call on trainee Paramedics to help staff as well.
I'd be worrying too about the mandate and how many experienced healthcare and other workers they may lose who do not want to get vaccinated and will be lost to the system and where the replacements are coming from.
Dan looks rattled, as Carlton fans we know well how coaches look when they are clueless what to do in the coaching box and Dan has got that look IMHO.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 08, 2021, 09:09:41 pm
Ambulance service is near collapse now as well, call centre overwhelmed and waiting times at a critical level.
Army been called in to supply drivers, the call centre I believe has also had to call on trainee Paramedics to help staff as well.

And two people supposedly died from heart attacks as a result of slow ambulance response?

At least that what was said today on the news.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 08, 2021, 09:56:15 pm
This is a good way to prioritise health services:
Woman who refuses Covid vaccine due to religious beliefs denied kidney transplant (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/covid-vaccine-kidney-transplant-christian-b1934676.html), Independent.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on October 08, 2021, 10:04:20 pm
And two people supposedly died from heart attacks as a result of slow ambulance response?

At least that what was said today on the news.

We had to call an ambulance a few nights ago for our daughter. Without going into details we are not the type to call an ambulance unless we think we need one.

My wife waited at least 4-5 mins to get through After at least 30 mins waiting for the ambo to arrive I called back this time and waited 7.20sec this time to get thru.
The person who allocates the 000 call stayed on the phone with me the whole time constantly saying ‘we will get thru sir’ and I’m right here with you sir’ and ‘they will answer sir’ before finally getting through to them.  I asked if they could advise how long the wait would be and was told they could not confirm but are very busy.

In the end things improved at our end and the danger had passed thankfully so I ended up cancelling and had to call back a third time and again waited similar times to get through.

Very worrying to have an emergency service in a country like this that is so utterly overwhelmed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 08, 2021, 10:30:55 pm
Give the wilfully unvaccinated a box of Ivermectin rather than a trip in an ambulance. Problem solved.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 08, 2021, 10:58:16 pm
Give the wilfully unvaccinated a box of Ivermectin rather than a trip in an ambulance. Problem solved.
Maybe if inner city ER's were not clogged with Vaccine side effect patients both real and the over anxious we might do a little better too....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 08, 2021, 11:17:49 pm
But they’re mostly not taking ambulances to get there or hospital beds, unlike the unvaccinated who are questioning their life choices while attached to ventilators.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on October 08, 2021, 11:22:10 pm
Give the wilfully unvaccinated a box of Ivermectin rather than a trip in an ambulance. Problem solved.

Mav I will say this once. Be very careful with those sorts of sarcastic comments when I am speaking honestly about my family.

Best you don’t go there.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 08, 2021, 11:38:19 pm
Given you and your kids had the vaccine, I can’t see your problem.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on October 08, 2021, 11:44:32 pm
Given you and your kids had the vaccine, I can’t see your problem.

Last chance.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 08, 2021, 11:49:57 pm
Do with your last chance whatever you like. I don’t want it and never asked for it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 08, 2021, 11:53:50 pm
I will say, however, that it is perfectly reasonable to note that the ambulance services and hospitals wouldn’t be so stressed if they didn’t need to deal with the pandemic of the unvaccinated. Claiming a personal veto over comment is not on.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on October 09, 2021, 12:26:02 am
Sadly this pandemic has turned a few obsessed to the point that anyone with a different view is seen as no longer deserving of any respect regardless of there situation. I explained my personal situation  which my daughter welfare was in immediate danger and I made no reference to Covid yet a
cowardly poster who has gotten ahead of himself over this virus thinks it’s acceptable to sarcastically reply and turn the situation into some sort of joke.

This is never on and against everything I stand for. Comments like that are very easily made when you’re hiding behind the security of your computer screen.

Family is a no go zone. It’s a line you don’t cross. Anyone with an ounce of respect knows that.

I’m going to leave the site.

Will miss the majority of posters but some people have got the better of me and I prefer to do other things they get worked up over morons who think they know it all.

Good health to all and Go blues.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 09, 2021, 12:33:10 am
None of my comments were about you or your family. They were related to the topic in this thread. At no stage did you suggest your family had any issue with Covid. You still haven’t. If you had a personal stake in the topic, you should have declared it or perhaps avoided this thread.

Don’t try to claim I made light of your family’s medical issues. I didn’t.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mantis on October 09, 2021, 01:18:14 am
That's the thing isn't it; a choice between getting somewhere close to normal or staying as we are now.  I know where I'd rather be.

I wasn't sure whether it would be constitutional but all Victorian members of parliament have to produce evidence of vaccination before they can attend parliament now.

Not true by what was stated at the daily announcement by the Victorian government today. MP’s/parliament politicians have only recently been given a mandate to be vaccinated with the first dose by the 22nd of this month. It might be a requirement to stretch this by a week to the 29th of October. The media had plenty to ask as to why every other essential worker needs the first dose by the 15th of October. “Different settings and we handle the members of parliament in our own way through discussions” was the response. Even the CHO Brett Sutton had nothing to add to the line of questions. You would think there would be a common standard for such an issue. Fact is that there are political members that are not vaccinated and still attending parliament for duties by what the authorities have stated Friday.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 09, 2021, 05:25:02 am

I’m going to leave the site.

We'll be all the poorer for your absence @shawny  :(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 09, 2021, 09:02:53 am
Sadly this pandemic has turned a few obsessed to the point that anyone with a different view is seen as no longer deserving of any respect regardless of there situation. I explained my personal situation  which my daughter welfare was in immediate danger and I made no reference to Covid yet a
cowardly poster who has gotten ahead of himself over this virus thinks it’s acceptable to sarcastically reply and turn the situation into some sort of joke.

This is never on and against everything I stand for. Comments like that are very easily made when you’re hiding behind the security of your computer screen.

Family is a no go zone. It’s a line you don’t cross. Anyone with an ounce of respect knows that.

I’m going to leave the site.

Will miss the majority of posters but some people have got the better of me and I prefer to do other things they get worked up over morons who think they know it all.

Good health to all and Go blues.

Shawny, I really do understand, and, yep, family and matters of the heart are a no go zone. But your contributions are deeply appreciated by most. Please don't allow someone lacking empathy to determine your involvement... then the d1ckhead wins. Focus on the value of the sincere posters... so many folks here have much to offer in different ways.

This site would be poorer without you. I and others here get that whoever crossed the line actually caused hurt to you and yours. Fck 'em. Give it another lash, mate. You and this site are worth it. Sadly, there are too many insensitive pr1cks in this world. I'm positive the vast majority of folks here would welcome you back, wholeheartedly. And with respect to you and yours.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 09, 2021, 09:46:07 am
Shawny, Just to echo Cap and Baggers thoughts, you will be missed if you leave the forum and you are a quality poster and united in Navy Blue with us all. Swimming against the tide isn't easy and we need diverse opinion not just on the forum but everywhere else too and you always crack in hard with your thoughts so I hope you reconsider...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 09, 2021, 10:40:11 am
Yep, I definitely agree family matters trump all. When our boy through no fault of his own throws us into a 14 day isolation because scumbag antivaxxers make it their mission to spread a lethal disease, it pisses me off.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 09, 2021, 11:29:26 am
This sort of situation is playing out all over the state, it's basically what the ICU nurses warned about in their union's recent media campaign, the risk of regret weighs far heavier on one side of this argument than the other, and nurses suffer when at the last moment patients flip but by then it's all too late.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 09, 2021, 11:39:32 am
As an aside, I heard virologist/epidemiologist talk on the radio two nights back, it was live talk on a BBC World channel, and I haven't found an internet copy yet but if I do I will post it.

They said most of the debate lacks a critical 3rd perspective and that has allowed a fantasy to persist, the fantasy is that vaccines kill.

Now at first this seems controversial, because we all know people can have severe reactions, but it is really coming from a very broad 3rd perspective. Statistically the truth is the vaccines save about a 1000 for every 1 they hurt! Where does that come from? Well COVID kills about 1000 out of every million, (In Western economies) while vaccine reactions kill 1 out of every million while saving about 970, vaccines aren't perfect, they won't save everybody, but statistically that is how effective the vaccines are, and it's almost unprecedented in history.

What about the 1?

The virologist/epidemiologist started their analysis from this perspective. It's sad that people die from a vaccine reaction, but it's highly likely that people who suffer badly or die from an adverse Sars-CoV-2 vaccine reaction are highly susceptible to the very same from the real Sars-CoV-2 virus. It is also highly likely that just like the common cold we will all get Sars-CoV-2 at some stage. So it's far better to issue the vaccines in controlled conditions, monitor the vaccine recipients in controlled conditions, try to identify and assist the 1 early, than to allow Sars-CoV-2 to run wild and kill the 970 that the vaccines would have saved.

This seems like a very sensible and reasonable position.

I definitely haven't related all the critical points as I was listening late at night, but you can see the general perspective this virology specialist was coming from. It makes sense.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 09, 2021, 12:28:15 pm
The Conversation is getting very very good at responding to various social media memes and misinformation in real time.

No, COVID Vaccines don't stay in your body for years! (https://theconversation.com/no-covid-vaccines-dont-stay-in-your-body-for-years-169247?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=The%20Weekend%20Conversation%20-%202081920553&utm_content=The%20Weekend%20Conversation%20-%202081920553+CID_20687d56d1b8f67088f0c260fd9061ee&utm_source=campaign_monitor&utm_term=to%20explain)

The sooner this real information gets out in the public, the better.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 09, 2021, 12:46:28 pm
I posted that yesterday but it bears repeating. I love the tweet from Dr Esther Choo, the whole series of tweets being:

Quote
I’m having so many conversations about the concern that vaccines interfere with cells’ genetic material but no one seems freaked out that viruses jump right in there and make our cells little virus factories.

I mean, this description from medical news-net: “This typically occurs by the virus inserting its genetic material in host cells, co-opting the proteins to create viral replicates, until the cell bursts from the high volume of new viral particles.”

Vaccines are so polite and elegant in comparison: “if you would, ma’am, make a scrap of spike protein to present to your immune system for its consideration? I’ll see myself out now.” “Be well… Be well.”
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 09, 2021, 01:31:18 pm
2nd dose done.

Still no 2nd head, no ability to see in the dark, or green glow.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 09, 2021, 01:31:58 pm
A mate from the States reckons folk are claiming that the vaccine has made them magnetic and are demonstrating this by showing coins and cutlery sticking to various parts of their anatomy.  Of course, all US coins (except for WW2 era steel cents) are made to be nonmagnetic as is good quality stainless steel cutlery  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 09, 2021, 01:36:36 pm
A mate from the States reckons folk are claiming that the vaccine has made them magnetic and are demonstrating this by showing coins and cutlery sticking to various parts of their anatomy.  Of course, all US coins (except for WW2 era steel cents) are made to be nonmagnetic as is good quality stainless steel cutlery  ::)
I once saw a sci-fi b-grade movie from maybe the 50's that had people being locked in place by magnets. It made me question if people were ever that dumb.

The above seems to prove it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 09, 2021, 01:44:14 pm
I experimented with a rare earth magnet DJC. It wasn't attracted whatsoever to Aussie coins but it stuck to all our cutlery and most of the kitchen implements. Maybe that says more about our cutlery than anything else! But the whole vaccine magnetism thing is comedy gold. There was a conspiracy theorist a while ago who gave evidence before a Red State parliamentary enquiry (I can't recall which State) and she couldn't get her spoon to stick to her forehead no matter what she did but she kept up her prattle about magnetism to the very end   :))
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 09, 2021, 01:51:45 pm
not sure if it was the one I saw but this youtube clip is pretty close:
https://youtu.be/qWI0YiSmTKs (https://youtu.be/qWI0YiSmTKs)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 09, 2021, 02:07:37 pm
not sure if it was the one I saw but this youtube clip is pretty close:

Mad as cut snakes!

I liked the anchorman's "train to crazy town" line; so apt.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 09, 2021, 02:11:47 pm
The Commonwealth Government is trying to bring in 2,000 health workers to shore up the health system.  I hope they will all be double-vaxxed  :)

Letting the health system run down was always going to come back and bite us on the butt.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 09, 2021, 03:22:59 pm
The Commonwealth Government is trying to bring in 2,000 health workers to shore up the health system.  I hope they will all be double-vaxxed  :)

Letting the health system run down was always going to come back and bite us on the butt.
Let's hope they are trained to the appropriate standard we expect in Australia..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 09, 2021, 03:28:56 pm
I can stick plastic spoons to my forehead, like I'm one of the X-Men, and I can bend them!

Given it's plastic, does that make me Polymath?

If those protesters are wearing any polyester they are forked! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on October 09, 2021, 05:03:16 pm
More smoke and mirrors from the Federal Govt.  Yesterday Greg Hunt announced that as from next week Australians who are severely immunocompromised will be offered the option to receive a third Covid dose.

My brother, who is in that category, rang his surgery today to book an appointment for next week.
Unfortunately, the surgery has received no information concerning a booster shot and he was told to ring back Monday week when more information could be available - but who knows!

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 09, 2021, 05:18:19 pm
Your brother might benefit from the new AstraZeneca treatment, Macca. The problem with vaccines is that they rely upon teaching the body to produce the antibodies that will then fight off any infection in the months following vaccination. But some people, especially the immunocompromised, aren't great at producing those antibodies in the quantity needed. The new AstraZeneca drug is an injectable which pumps long-lasting artificial antibodies into muscles and they presumably augment the body's naturally-generated antibodies.

That drug is yet to be approved for use and who knows what side-effects and contra-indications it will have. I'd also imagine it is compatible with booster shots anyway, so there's probably no need to choose between them or put anything on hold.

As always, this is just brainstorming. I'm not a doctor, so rely on the medical advice rather than my musings.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 09, 2021, 05:29:31 pm
More smoke and mirrors from the Federal Govt.  Yesterday Greg Hunt announced that as from next week Australians who are severely immunocompromised will be offered the option to receive a third Covid dose.

My brother, who is in that category, rang his surgery today to book an appointment for next week.
Unfortunately, the surgery has received no information concerning a booster shot and he was told to ring back Monday week when more information could be available - but who knows!

Governments seem to announce "initiatives" without previously informing those who will be expected to provide the service or product.

Hitting the news cycle at the right time is more important than planned implementation  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on October 09, 2021, 05:56:02 pm
Your brother might benefit from the new AstraZeneca treatment, Macca. The problem with vaccines is that they rely upon teaching the body to produce the antibodies that will then fight off any infection in the months following vaccination. But some people, especially the immunocompromised, aren't great at producing those antibodies in the quantity needed. The new AstraZeneca drug is an injectable which pumps long-lasting artificial antibodies into muscles and they presumably augment the body's naturally-generated antibodies.

That drug is yet to be approved for use and who knows what side-effects and contra-indications it will have. I'd also imagine it is compatible with booster shots anyway, so there's probably no need to choose between them or put anything on hold.

As always, this is just brainstorming. I'm not a doctor, so rely on the medical advice rather than my musings.

Thanks, Mav.  I'll mention it to him.  He is in remission after treatment for an aggressive type of leukaemia  and his immune system is just about shot.  It's one of the reasons I am angry with anti-vaxxers and people who put their so-called personal freedoms above the rights of the general community.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on October 09, 2021, 06:03:59 pm
Governments seem to announce "initiatives" without previously informing those who will be expected to provide the service or product.



Hitting the news cycle at the right time is more important than planned implementation  ::)

 What you have said is correct.  The failure of the initiatives to arrive at the time announced causes unnecessary worry and anxiety for people who are already battling serious illnesses.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 09, 2021, 06:21:03 pm
Macca, I totally agree with you that it's hard to accept that the holdouts have little concern for the common good. Here's an interesting article by a psychologist who was involved with analysing what might persuade them to vaccinate.

COVID vaccine hesitancy: spell out the personal rather than collective benefits to persuade people — new research (https://theconversation.com/covid-vaccine-hesitancy-spell-out-the-personal-rather-than-collective-benefits-to-persuade-people-new-research-160824), The Conversation.

So much for social cohesion. They're about as community-minded as Montgomery Burns  ::)

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on October 09, 2021, 08:19:44 pm

Macca, I totally agree with you that it's hard to accept that the holdouts have little concern for the common good. Here's an interesting article by a psychologist who was involved with analysing what might persuade them to vaccinate.

COVID vaccine hesitancy: spell out the personal rather than collective benefits to persuade people — new research (https://theconversation.com/covid-vaccine-hesitancy-spell-out-the-personal-rather-than-collective-benefits-to-persuade-people-new-research-160824), The Conversation.

So much for social cohesion. They're about as community-minded as Montgomery Burns  ::)


That's an interesting article, but the percentage of anti-social people within the community is depressing.

After so many months of lockdown, the ever looming threat of Covid,  and the failure of collective benefits arguments failing to sway the views of a hardcore group, I've lost interest in attempting to change their minds.

 I hope the Victorian government has the resolve to carry through with its plan to place restrictions on the unvaccinated when we open up.  The loss of privileges may be one way of forcing the anti-social to become a little more sociable.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 10, 2021, 12:21:04 am
How we treat people is more important than whether or not someone is vaccinated.

If you are contributing to that social divide then maybe a free country isn't for you. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 10, 2021, 09:42:07 am
2nd dose done.

Still no 2nd head, no ability to see in the dark, or green glow.



After my second jab I did notice another head beginning to grow under my left armpit, but fortunately, very fortunately, the 5G network stopped this and caused the second head to atrophy and fall off.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 10, 2021, 09:44:45 am
I once saw a sci-fi b-grade movie from maybe the 50's that had people being locked in place by magnets. It made me question if people were ever that dumb.

The above seems to prove it.

I must confess to loving a good 50s sci-fi. Some real classics from that decade. The one with Leslie Nielson as the spaceships captain is a beaut.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 10, 2021, 09:50:11 am
The Commonwealth Government is trying to bring in 2,000 health workers to shore up the health system.  I hope they will all be double-vaxxed  :)

Letting the health system run down was always going to come back and bite us on the butt.

Aint that the truth. Probably the biggest inconvenient truth of the past 2 years. Well said, David.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 10, 2021, 10:02:02 am
I must confess to loving a good 50s sci-fi. Some real classics from that decade. The one with Leslie Nielson as the spaceships captain is a beaut.
Oh this wasn't a good one. lol
I saw parts of it on tv late night about 20 years ago.
Never have worked out what it was, but the magnetic humans stuck with me from the absurdity.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 10, 2021, 10:05:26 am
Klaatu barada nikto
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 10, 2021, 10:46:53 am
Klaatu barada nikto
I always thought it was 'Verata'
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 10, 2021, 10:50:04 am
I must confess to loving a good 50s sci-fi. Some real classics from that decade. The one with Leslie Nielson as the spaceships captain is a beaut.
The Day the Earth Stood Still, (1951), it's a ripper! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on October 10, 2021, 10:53:16 am
The Day the Earth Stood Still, (1951), it's a ripper! ;D

Yep, I remember seeing that as a kid at a Sat morning session at the local flea pit. Blew my mind! Starred Michael Rennie iirc.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 10, 2021, 10:58:45 am
So, Julian Assange is a COVID denier and anti-vaxxer.  Who’d have thunk it?  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 10, 2021, 10:59:44 am
The Day the Earth Stood Still, (1951), it's a ripper! ;D

Yep. Michael Rennie was brilliant. Funny how the message of the movie from 1951 is still very applicable.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 10, 2021, 11:00:45 am
So, Julian Assange is a COVID denier and anti-vaxxer.  Who’d have thunk it?  ::)
In there somewhere is the difference between real science questioning evidence and outright paranoia that can be the science denier!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 10, 2021, 11:01:29 am
Mike Rennie left us at 61 and Klaatu was his character name.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NZXmq-E2tM
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 10, 2021, 11:04:17 am
Yep. Michael Rennie was brilliant. Funny how the message of the movie from 1951 is still very applicable.
Yep, great movie, if only the modern film makers spent more time on plots and dialogues than special effects some of the modern films would be an order of magnitude better. When it's cold and rainy some of those old black and white movies they play at the weekend remind me of just how dependant modern films are on special effects and whiz bang.

I suppose that is why we find Nordic Noir so compelling!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 10, 2021, 11:07:58 am
Yep, I remember seeing that as a kid at a Sat morning session at the local flea pit. Blew my mind! Starred Michael Rennie iirc.

You do remember correctly, Fluffy One. Iirc I saw it at a cinema in Moonee Ponds around 1960. Used to go there on my own... who'd allow a 5 yo to go to a cinema alone today!! Spent many a day roaming the streets on my patma late fifties to early sixties. Saw many great movies... and caught many an amazing grasshopper and butterfly at the botanical gardens there, just next to St Monica's Catholic School - funny how that place turned out to be the most dangerous and traumatic place I went! (apologies for this stuff in this thread, probably belongs in movies or general threads... :-[ )
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 10, 2021, 11:08:48 am
Yep, great movie, if only the modern film makers spent more time on plots and dialogues than special effects some of the modern films would be an order of magnitude better. When it's cold and rainy some of those old black and white movies they play at the weekend remind me of just how dependant modern films are on special effects and whiz bang.

I suppose that is why we find Nordic Noir so compelling!

Couldn't have said it better, Spotted One.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on October 10, 2021, 11:13:42 am
How we treat people is more important than whether or not someone is vaccinated.

If you are contributing to that social divide then maybe a free country isn't for you. 

Perhaps you could direct that comment to anti-vaxxers who, not content with having their views, seek to harm the general community with their actions.

I suggest that people holding " freedom marches" without wearing masks, deliberately making vaccination appointments with no intention of attending, and, on a personal note, a group forcing the closure of a local eye surgery last Thursday by refusing to wear masks, are the ones contributing to the social divide.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on October 10, 2021, 11:39:11 am
So, Julian Assange is a COVID denier and anti-vaxxer.  Who’d have thunk it?  ::)

I cant find anything on the internet to this effect. At any rate, he has been to hell and back, and can barely tell one day from another. I'd be cutting him some slack on this one, assuming it's even true.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 10, 2021, 12:16:50 pm
@PaulP‍ looks like you're going all Lotus Eater?

(https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=1230;type=avatar)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 10, 2021, 12:27:06 pm
10,000 allowed to the Melbourne cup in 3 weeks. What a joke.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on October 10, 2021, 12:27:09 pm
@PaulP‍ looks like you're going all Lotus Eater?

Hopefully that doesn't mean you think my posts are produced in a state of narcosis lol.

The lotus avatar is inspired by Hinduism.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 10, 2021, 12:30:16 pm
Agreed Macca. Here's an article on the abc.net.au site which documents the efforts of anti-vaxxers to promote social cohesion:COVID vaccine letters target GPs and pharmacists demanding they 'cease and desist' or face 'punishment' (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-10/gps-pharmacists-in-firing-line-of-anti-vaxxers/100497554).

Let's not forget about the time they threw urine at staff at either a vaccination or Covid testing site and ripped down marquees they were using. Charming folk.
 
They've been busy unleashing a firehose of lies and disinformation on the public through social media. The Age (through AP) reports they have an unlikely ally in their efforts (the article mostly discusses the US experience). It appears a subset of chiropracters are the Scientologists of the medical world as they're scornful of the efforts of mainstream medical practitioners: 

 Anti-vaccine chiropractors rising force of COVID-jab misinformation (https://www.theage.com.au/world/north-america/anti-vaccine-chiropractors-rising-force-of-covid-jab-misinformation-20211009-p58yle.html)
Quote
At a time when the surgeon general says misinformation has become an urgent threat to public health, an investigation by The Associated Press found a vocal and influential group of chiropractors has been capitalising on the pandemic by sowing fear and mistrust of vaccines.

They have touted their supplements as alternatives to vaccines, written doctor’s notes to allow patients to get out of mask and immunisation mandates, donated large sums of money to anti-vaccine organisations and sold anti-vaccine ads on Facebook and Instagram, the AP discovered. One chiropractor gave thousands of dollars to a Super PAC that hosted an anti-vaccine, pro-Donald Trump rally near the US Capitol on January 6.
...

Public health advocates are alarmed by the number of chiropractors who have hitched themselves to the anti-vaccine movement and used their public prominence and sheen of medical expertise to undermine the nation’s response to a COVID-19 pandemic that has killed more than 700,000 Americans.

Australia has not been immune from the trend either, with one Melbourne chiropractor suspended for spouting anti-vax claims.
...

But the pandemic gave a new platform to chiropractors who had been stirring up anti-vaccine misinformation long before COVID-19 arrived, driven by interpretations of 19th century chiropractic beliefs that medicine interferes with the body’s natural flow of energy.

Chiropractic was founded in 1895 by D.D. Palmer, a “magnetic healer” who argued that most disease was a result of misaligned vertebrae. Its early leaders rejected the use of surgery and drugs, as well as the idea that germs cause disease. Instead, they believed the body has an innate intelligence, and the power to heal itself if it is functioning properly, and that chiropractic care can help it do that.

This led many to reject vaccines – even though vaccines are not within their scope of practice. Instead, they treat conditions through spine and musculoskeletal adjustments, as well as exercise and nutritional counselling. A 2015 Gallup survey found an estimated 33.5 million adults had seen a chiropractor in the previous 12 months.

Even before the pandemic, many chiropractors became active in the so-called “health freedom” movement, advocating in state legislatures from Massachusetts to South Dakota to allow more people to skip vaccinations.
...

AP could find no national numbers of vaccination rates among chiropractors, but Oregon tracks vaccine uptake among all licensed health providers, and the numbers show chiropractors and their assistants are by far the least likely to be vaccinated – and far less than the general public.

So what is the appropriate public policy response? How do we counter outright lies and intimidation? Unsurpisingly, the anti-vaxxers are worked into a frenzy by vaccine mandates. Just imagine if everyone bar the anti-vaxxers gets vaccinated and this helps bring an end to the pandemic. Not great for the anti-vax movement and in the short-term it kills a nice little earner they've got going with the sales of miracle cures and fundraising.

So they promote a PR campaign that we should be compassionate to those they turn into anti-vaxxers or vaccine-hesistants. We shouldn't expect everyone to do their bit in an effort to staunch the Covid onslaught, we're told. And we should be prepared to foot the bill for them when a predictable portion of them need expensive medical treatment and lengthy hospital stays which muscle out others who need those services. We should treat them as a religion or race unto themselves: in other words, it's SEGREGATION or APARTHEID just as in the Deep South of the US before the Civil Rights Movement or in South Africa! That PR campaign is disgusting, Sam Frost tried this on for size when she posted a sobbing video bemoaning this segregation and thankfully the backlash was so immediate and strong she took the video down and disabled her account. 

Mandates and vaccine passports are effective in pushing the disinformation-affected hesitants over the line. Quite apart from encouraging people to do something which will benefit them and the community, they're also defensible on the basis that they simply acknowledge that the unvaccinated are more likely to spread a deadly disease than the fully vaccinated.

In particular, a mandate in the healthcare setting means we force the wingnuts out of the system. Not having a nurse or chiropracter terrorising parents about vaccinating themselves and their kids is a win in itself.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 10, 2021, 12:30:47 pm
I cant find anything on the internet to this effect. At any rate, he has been to hell and back, and can barely tell one day from another. I'd be cutting him some slack on this one, assuming it's even true.

Assange tweeted that vaccination did more harm than COVID and implied that it was a conspiracy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on October 10, 2021, 12:34:51 pm
Assange tweeted that vaccination did more harm than COVID and implied that it was a conspiracy.

He's in pretty bad shape, and I would disregard that type of nonsense, especially since he doesn't even appear to have a twitter account.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on October 10, 2021, 12:36:16 pm
I doubt he would even be allowed access to a computer.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 10, 2021, 12:56:31 pm
I doubt he would even be allowed access to a computer.

It's on the Wikileaks feed ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 10, 2021, 01:04:56 pm
10,000 allowed to the Melbourne cup in 3 weeks. What a joke.
Agree..havent seen my kids who are all jabbed for months but we can all go to a horse race and bunch up together.......
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 10, 2021, 01:10:27 pm
Mike Rennie left us at 61 and Klaatu was his character name.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NZXmq-E2tM

Learn something new every day.

FWIW...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn7hbghmd44
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 10, 2021, 01:18:43 pm
You'd have to think all of the attendees would be double vaxxed ... not that I'd ever defend andrews.  Was he ever interrogated on that?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on October 10, 2021, 01:28:53 pm
It's on the Wikileaks feed ...

I don't use twitter much, but I've just spent 10 minutes doing searches and advanced searches on the wikileaks twitter account, and found nothing. Do you have a link that takes you to the actual quote / tweet ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 10, 2021, 01:42:53 pm
Agree..havent seen my kids who are all jabbed for months but we can all go to a horse race and bunch up together.......

Get on the beers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 10, 2021, 01:49:04 pm
If only we treated others with more empathy and compassion:

Victoria‘s shameful response to true stories from the front line of the fight against Covid (https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/victorias-shameful-response-to-true-stories-from-the-front-line-of-the-fight-against-covid/news-story/987b1198820cbfbd404ea43da2f51ee1), news.com.au.

Quote
A young man stood up in front of all of Victoria and spoke bravely about a deeply personal experience. What followed was disgusting.

Imagine for a second how daunting it would be to stand up in front of Victoria’s press gallery and tell your harrowing story about being infected with Covid-19, knowing that perfect strangers will use the footage to spread dangerous misinformation and label you a liar and a paid actor.

That is what happened this week to a young man suffering the harrowing effects of long Covid — symptoms that turned him from a world-class college athlete into a shadow of his former self and left him unable to get out of bed months after contracting the virus.

Will, who spoke genuinely and with good intentions beside the Premier Daniel Andrews this week, has since been subjected to the most vile comments by conspiracy theorists and anti-vaxxers who still, 20 months into the pandemic, find new reasons to believe Covid-19 is harmless.
...
Michelle, who is the ICU nursing unit manager at the Royal Melbourne Hospital, was targeted a day earlier when the Andrews government wheeled her out to share horrifying anecdotes from the front line of the fight against Covid.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 10, 2021, 02:03:05 pm
Get on the beers.
I'm all for a drink, but I'm dead surprised one of the conditions of opening up public events might be that they are either completely dry or light beer only like the MCG public areas.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 10, 2021, 02:12:18 pm
I'm all for a drink, but I'm dead surprised one of the conditions of opening up public events might be that they are either completely dry or light beer only like the MCG public areas.

...which begs the question, are they there to enjoy the Melbourne Cup, or create an excuse to get on the turps and get shizen faced? I suspect my question is rhetorical.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 10, 2021, 02:13:34 pm
...which begs the question, are they there to enjoy the Melbourne Cup, or create an excuse to get on the turps and get shizen faced? I suspect my question is rhetorical.
Well my recommendation is to stay home and watch this for free!

https://archive.org/details/The.Day.The.Earth.Stood.Still1951
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 10, 2021, 06:25:30 pm
Well my recommendation is to stay home and watch this for free!

https://archive.org/details/The.Day.The.Earth.Stood.Still1951

Spotted One, you bloody ripper. You're on the Christmas list!! Now everyone knows what I'll be watching -- again -- tonight. Can't thank you enough, Squire. :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 10, 2021, 08:13:11 pm
We're going off in tangents but "Earth Versus the Flying saucers" should get a look in :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_ykY1CIhwc
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 11, 2021, 12:10:56 am
I don't use twitter much, but I've just spent 10 minutes doing searches and advanced searches on the wikileaks twitter account, and found nothing. Do you have a link that takes you to the actual quote / tweet ?

No Paul.  A COVID-denier posted the link in response to a warning about a contact site on one of our local community pages.  The post was deleted after some forthright comments.  It seemed genuine - I don't know how hard it is to fake a twitter post - and was written in typical Assange-speak.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on October 11, 2021, 07:19:38 am
No Paul.  A COVID-denier posted the link in response to a warning about a contact site on one of our local community pages.  The post was deleted after some forthright comments.  It seemed genuine - I don't know how hard it is to fake a twitter post - and was written in typical Assange-speak.

Hmm. If you've followed the story of what's been happening with Julian, how he's been treated, his physical and mental health etc., you may understand my skepticism.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 11, 2021, 08:31:38 am
Ecuador must've got sick of the bills.   ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on October 11, 2021, 09:35:10 am
NSW going off.
Arguments over admittance restrictions already.
This could be a really messy day.

Victoria will probably get a good idea about 'how not' to reopen.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 11, 2021, 10:10:13 am
NSW going off.
Arguments over admittance restrictions already.
This could be a really messy day.

Victoria will probably get a good idea about 'how not' to reopen.

We're off to a great start. Melbourne cup before schools.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 11, 2021, 10:17:34 am
Shiny happy people .. thanks REM
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 11, 2021, 10:27:29 am
NSW going off.
Arguments over admittance restrictions already.
This could be a really messy day.

Victoria will probably get a good idea about 'how not' to reopen.
Is it caused by the naivety of the general public, many have an expectation that opening up means going back to the way things were before?

I'm not sure if even the media has been selling that message.

I wonder if it's just a manifestation of the fear of change, and how difficult some people find dealing with change of any sort even perhaps when that change is a clear improvement! I bet @Thryleon sees this sometimes working in IT, you change a system or device to something that is markedly better and easier, faster and more accurate but some users just want the old one back.

 I'm not asserting the societal changes as a result of Sars-CoV-2 are better, but I am pretty sure they are largely unavoidable. I'm also cynical enough to realise some will attempt to profit form that change, whether it is financially or politically.

So to deal with this what should be done, perhaps just do as the new NSW Premier has asked and be kind! But isn't that also one of the arguments for getting the jab if you can, and many didn't listen to that? ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on October 11, 2021, 10:47:42 am
It's early in the day in Greater Sydney.
We'll have a better idea how folks are responding as the day goes on.

My daughter has about a week to go before her second shot, then a couple of weeks for it to fully kick in.
She originally wasn't scheduled to get her first shot until November but as the supply increased she was able to get it moved forward.
It will be a little difficult, and perhaps a more dangerous time, for the younger ones like her who are in a bit of limbo for a few weeks.
Caught between two jabs.
Some of her friends will be out and about and mixing.
Case numbers, we are told, will increase.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2021, 10:49:01 am
For Victoria, the regional trial of a sign-in app will be a must-pass test. If they can’t get a simple yet secure app up and running, it’ll be a messy reopening. I wonder how much collaboration there was amongst the states and territories in developing these apps (I’d hope a lot).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 11, 2021, 10:53:47 am
Opening regionally is interesting, because despite case numbers being low or zero, vaccination rates in some regional areas are low as well. There is no uniform uptake of vaccine in NSW and Vic regional areas, and it's even worse in SA and Qld.

I presume that governments are happy to accept the risk in low population density regions, as they can handle the case load using city hospitals, but that assumes the suburban regions don't have any significant outbreak. I'm not sure what happens in Vic if the modelling turns out to be true, they got the counts  95% correct in NSW but were out in the timing duration. In Vic the modellers are saying we will get to 3000 positive cases a day.

Up in NSW apparently there were some nasty scenes overnight when some of the big chain stores opened, people cracked it when they rolled up to find they had to join a queue and numbers were still being restricted on entry, social distancing measures were still enforced, I'm not sure why they would think it wouldn't be that way! They must have thought they could role up at midnight and waltz into the department store like they were back in 2019. I appreciate this might be a minority of trouble makers, some needing genuine assistance while others are deliberately trying to stir up trouble. We will know in 10 to 14 days if this turns sour, I know the UK suffered a significant spike after opening that took many weeks of public health hell to resolve.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 11, 2021, 10:54:41 am
8 year old with a burst appendix turned away from a well known public hospital because the ED was full of covid patients vaxxed and unvaxxed plus vaccine effect patients both real and the over anxious variety.
Told to go to the RCH who duly saved the child but it was close..
If we open up in crazy fashion and get a mass uptake in cases it's going to result in more non covid fatalities as the health system will be over whelmed..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 11, 2021, 11:04:42 am
8 year old with a burst appendix turned away from a well known public hospital because the ED was full of covid patients vaxxed and unvaxxed plus vaccine effect patients both real and the over anxious variety.
Told to go to the RCH who duly saved the child but it was close..
If we open up in crazy fashion and get a mass uptake in cases it's going to result in non covid fatalities as the health system will be over whelmed..
Let's not cast uncertainty here, it's most likely the vast bulk of patients in the ED requiring serious care were unvaccinated, statistically the figure has been as high as 85% of ED patients are not vaccinated.

I can't think of a better argument for being vaccinated than that little girl and others like her, I suppose some don't care because she's not their own, so she is not their problem!

It's never just been about COVID patients, it always been about what the system can handle in total, relative to the potential exponential growth in COVID cases.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 11, 2021, 11:17:08 am
Let's not cast uncertainty here, it's most likely the vast bulk of patients in the ED requiring serious care were unvaccinated, statistically the figure has been as high as 85% of ED patients are not vaccinated.

I can't think of a better argument for being vaccinated than that little girl and others like her, I suppose some don't care because she's not their own, so she is not their problem!

It's never just been about COVID patients, it always been about what the system can handle in total, relative to potential exponential growth in COVID cases.
Vaxxed patients get symptoms and run to ERs too, chest pains mean ECGs and blood tests from over anxious just vaxxed are clogging up the system.
Vaxxed patients don't die but still clog the system when they present to ED with a runny nose and want reassurance.
So the system is clogged and no extra staff or resources have been provided to offset increased numbers.
You open up on mass and those cases will skyrocket and non covid patients will find themselves without proper care..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 11, 2021, 11:39:58 am
Child comes first
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 11, 2021, 11:47:01 am
Perhaps you could direct that comment to anti-vaxxers who, not content with having their views, seek to harm the general community with their actions.

I suggest that people holding " freedom marches" without wearing masks, deliberately making vaccination appointments with no intention of attending, and, on a personal note, a group forcing the closure of a local eye surgery last Thursday by refusing to wear masks, are the ones contributing to the social divide.



I'm directing my comment to everyone.
This transcends a rather temporary moment in time to do with a pandemic response.

https://www.abc.net.au/religion/human-rights-and-mandatory-covid-19-vaccinations/13577278

This article is incredibly well written, and there are quite a lot of people that need to take a good hard look at themselves with the sorts of vitriol that comes out of their mouths, both pro and anti. 

Quote
Possible implications of mandatory vaccination

Mandatory vaccination has significant implications for human rights and the nature of government power which need to be clearly understood. For a start, it has implications for the nature of consent, which is the centrepiece of our society’s public sexual morality. This norm dictates that sexual activity must only be engaged in with each party’s free and willing consent. Section 10(c) of the Charter Act mirrors this by stating that a person must not be subjected to medical treatment without his or her full, free, and informed consent.

Despite this clear requirement for free consent, the foreshadowed vaccine mandate means any person working in Victoria will need to be vaccinated, regardless of their personal views, subject to the threat of losing one’s livelihood if a person fails to comply. This arguably poses an alarming precedent. Does this mean that reluctant compliance given under sufferance is now sufficient to constitute consent? Does consent now include compliance under the threat of harm?

Bodily autonomy is another highly important value in the modern West. The concept of autonomy dictates that all people are free to deal with their bodies as they wish, free from control or coercion by another, and underlies such things as abortion and transgender rights. However, if a person can be forced against his or her will to be vaccinated for the common good, does this signal an erosion of bodily autonomy?

Mandatory vaccination signals that there is no area of life exempt from political and governmental control. Even fundamental questions of human autonomy and bodily integrity are now subject to regulation by the state — in this case, by executive order.

Finally, compulsory vaccination treats the decision as to whether to be vaccinated or not as a decision that needs to be made on our behalf by others. Every problem in society is a technocratic problem for governments and experts to solve. This effectively infantilises the population, treating people as if they cannot be trusted to make responsible decisions. And yet democracy is predicated on the principle of popular sovereignty, the idea that parliamentarians and the government are elected by and accountable to the people. We can be trusted to determine who will govern us but not fundamental questions of our own bodily integrity.

Many will agree with compulsory vaccination, but this sets a precedent of government control which is unlikely to stop with vaccination.

Benjamin Saunders is a Senior Lecturer at Deakin Law School.

This is on many levels, not the right way to do this.

Where is the education on this subject for those who wish to remain unvaccinated?

Why are they being hit at their comply or else? 

Is this the world you want to live in, where people force you to do things, or else you are out of a job, out of medicare, out of education for your children and yet this is where you have lived your life paying taxes and electing people to protect these very fundamental aspects of modern society?

I know people who are otherwise upstanding citizens, who have a family, and are now looking at the prospect of taking a vaccine under duress, because they dont know how they are going to put food on the table, and both parents are going to be out of work.

Rather than poke fun at these people, accuse them of causing the pandemic that we find ourselves in, education, and empathy are the better path to this, because very soon we are going to have a family of 5 on the streets, because they are renting, and not able to earn an income, not able to work even though both are gainfully employed, and the only way out is to take a needle that they dont see the value in taking because our government has failed to simply educate people on the benefits of doing so.

The amount of misinformation that proliferates out there is mindboggling, and we can see the divide on this very forum.  I took a brief hiatus because of one vitriolic poster who seems very disconnected from the real world.  Irrespective, I decided that taking a stop from the forum was a break I needed, but you dont make an impact sitting on the sidelines.



We have a very polarising thing going on, but I've stated this on numerous occasions, the quickest way to lose a lot of people who are truly unsure of whether or not this is the right thing to do, is mandate a response, at the threat of loss of lives and livelihood.  The biggest issue that it creates?  Next time, where this is actually the right thing to do, you are going to have a lot of people that just dont see the merit in it, particularly when you hear stories of 16 year old girls going to hospital with heart problems within 48 hours of being vaccinated. 



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2021, 11:48:41 am
Vaxxed patients get symptoms and run to ERs too, chest pains mean ECGs and blood tests from over anxious just vaxxed are clogging up the system.
Vaxxed patients don't die but still clog the system when they present to ED with a runny nose and want reassurance.
Chalk up another win for anti-vaxxer disinformation ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 11, 2021, 12:04:51 pm
Chalk up another win for anti-vaxxer disinformation ...
Not about vaxxed or non vaxxed it's about providing extra resources for a already stretched health system and what a large uptake in cases will mean and how it affects the man in the street expecting normal services. Its about kids getting proper heath care and not a vaxxed vs non vaxxed scorecard which you seem to be wanting.
The Governments including State and Federal need to provide resources rather than planning
how many planes we can get up and running or cruise ships..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2021, 12:35:29 pm
Thryleon, that’s 1 guy’s legal opinion and when cases come to court they are matched by an opposing legal submission which will also be incredibly well written and perhaps even more so. This is the sort of dispute that’s currently being heard by the NSW Supreme Court. When decisions start coming out of superior courts, we’ll have the answer about the legal enforceability of vaccine mandates.

Let’s acknowledge that no one will be physically or even legally forced to take the vaccine. Suggestions to the contrary are pure rhetoric. Like it or not, that’s a pretty major factor in challenging vaccine mandates.

As for blaming a failure of governments to educate, the old saying is apt: “A lie gets halfway around the world before truth puts on its boots”. No government has found a way to counter the firehouse of lies and disinformation through social media. Imagine how hard it would be for a regional government to fund an education campaign that would target its electorate as comprehensively as global anti-vaxxer propaganda. No doubt Government websites throughout Australia would educate anyone who bothers to access them. The media has educated the public via extensive interviews with epidemiologists and doctors. How do you educate someone who doesn't watch those interviews but instead binge-watches antivax propaganda promoted by algorithms whose sole aim is to keep people engaged with its site's content? 



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 11, 2021, 12:47:56 pm
How do you educate someone who doesn't watch those interviews but instead binge-watches antivax propaganda promoted by algorithms whose sole aim is to keep people engaged with its site's content?
This is a fundamental problem with social media, which is why globally many governments are starting to look into the way they do business, the governments are trying to address social media's complete lack accountability!

I notice some mainstream media is getting on this bandwagon as well, but there will be political hurdles, some want the freedom to publish whatever they like with impunity!

It is why I've always offered the opinion that you should be very careful what you publish on the internet, no matter what some may naively think it never goes away, delete is not always gone!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2021, 01:02:50 pm
Child comes first
You'd think so, wouldn't you ...

The last time I went to an ED, it was because I managed to drop something really heavy on my foot and my foot blew up inside my steelcapped boot. I thought it may be broken but X-Rays showed later that this wasn't the case. While I was waiting, the nurse would periodically come up and ask whether there was any pain but I reiterated it only hurt to walk and otherwise I had hardly any pain. Meanwhile, a steady flow of other patients came in. One guy had cut his hand open with an angle grinder and had it wrapped up with a bloody cloth. I thought for sure he'd jump ahead of me and I wouldn't have had any problem with that. But I was called up before him. That made me wonder about the triage system!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 11, 2021, 01:14:24 pm
That made me wonder about the triage system!
A relative was waiting for a scan having been diagnosed with cancer by some biopsy or blood test, sitting in the queue at Epworth for hours on end he was next in the line when he got bumped to the next day, so CA could get an immediate scan on Steve Waugh's hammy.

I'm not blaming Waugh, it's not his fault it is the system!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2021, 01:17:14 pm
I took a brief hiatus because of one vitriolic poster who seems very disconnected from the real world.  Irrespective, I decided that taking a stop from the forum was a break I needed, but you dont make an impact sitting on the sidelines.

I know how you feel! I had 1 vitriolic poster suggesting I was the type who would have handed over Jewish people in Hitler's Germany for extermination. Can you believe that? It's hard to think of anything more vile, vitriolic and despicable than invoking the holocaust in that way. You'd think someone like that should have spent a bit of time reflecting on his behaviour.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 11, 2021, 01:39:12 pm
There is a lot of broad assumption that goes on around this Sars-CoV-2 event, mostly it's people with a little bit of information filling in the blanks.

I had an associate rant at me about Dictator Dan over the weekend, on and on he went in a foul mood because one of our favourite specialty retailers has decided to close it's door for good. My associate was adamant it was all because of the economic damage wrought from an "unending chain of spurious lockdowns", very colourful emotive language.

But meaningless language in the light of the true situation, Sars-CoV-2 is a cause but not what people think. The business owners are older approaching retirement age but not yet ready to retire, two lovely people but they both have some significant underlying health issues. They care about the customers and do not want to keep the business at arms length, and they do not want to disrespect their customers by failing to deliver the accepted level of service. So they've change the business model and will get out of face to face retail to keep themselves safe and still deliver high quality products and service but now purely from online trading. The business isn't suffering at all, in fact as it expands into online it's thriving, the change away from physical retail is just a rational tactical move that will hopefully see them safely into retirement.

But my associate won't have a bar of that, it's all Dictator Dan's fault, the pandemic itself has little to do with it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on October 11, 2021, 02:01:14 pm
Is this the next problem after Covid?

Dr. John Campbell discusses we are starting to see a major resurgence of illnesses like common colds, flu and stomach bugs, respiratory-type indicators increased nationally particularly, 1-14 years - the return of the 'common cold' and that with isolation our immunity has dropped.

https://youtu.be/7Vsp5DJtsXM
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 11, 2021, 03:08:08 pm
I know how you feel! I had 1 vitriolic poster suggesting I was the type who would have handed over Jewish people in Hitler's Germany for extermination. Can you believe that? It's hard to think of anything more vile, vitriolic and despicable than invoking the holocaust in that way. You'd think someone like that should have spent a bit of time reflecting on his behaviour.

You mean it wasn't you that said that we should round up all the vaccinated and put them in their own special state with its own border?

You are a chronic self loather though, so I wouldn't be surprised.  Happy to discriminate against anyone provided it fits your political agenda.  We are not as equal as you are Mav!  Good to know.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2021, 03:15:02 pm
Great to see you setting such a fine example when it comes to inflammatory and vitriolic remarks. You're nothing but a hypocrite.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 11, 2021, 03:17:05 pm
Thryleon, that’s 1 guy’s legal opinion and when cases come to court they are matched by an opposing legal submission which will also be incredibly well written and perhaps even more so. This is the sort of dispute that’s currently being heard by the NSW Supreme Court. When decisions start coming out of superior courts, we’ll have the answer about the legal enforceability of vaccine mandates.

Let’s acknowledge that no one will be physically or even legally forced to take the vaccine. Suggestions to the contrary are pure rhetoric. Like it or not, that’s a pretty major factor in challenging vaccine mandates.

As for blaming a failure of governments to educate, the old saying is apt: “A lie gets halfway around the world before truth puts on its boots”. No government has found a way to counter the firehouse of lies and disinformation through social media. Imagine how hard it would be for a regional government to fund an education campaign that would target its electorate as comprehensively as global anti-vaxxer propaganda. No doubt Government websites throughout Australia would educate anyone who bothers to access them. The media has educated the public via extensive interviews with epidemiologists and doctors. How do you educate someone who doesn't watch those interviews but instead binge-watches antivax propaganda promoted by algorithms whose sole aim is to keep people engaged with its site's content? 





Mav, did you read that article?
In its entirety where it talks about the charter of human rights?  Not just the quote I outlayed?   It is just one element of a very interesting legal minefield we are about to traverse.  Sure, its one guys opinion, but he is not just one guy, he is a teacher of future lawyers.

On a seperate topic, the majority of people I know of, who you propose have listened to the anti vax algorithm, are not what you think they are.

You assume far too much about them.  I see them all every day, in the front lines, genuinely questioning what we are being told, because they don't know what to believe, what is right, what is right for them, and because we as a liberated society have encouraged questioning what doesnt seem right (and that relies on a lot of people applying their brains with 0 bias, which is very difficult at the moment).

Going to the vic.gov website is extremely informative, but Dan Andrews press conferences are something I elected to turn off very eary on in this pandemic, because I could see the reaction to his words on the podium, from people who heard the same thing I did, and somehow managed to draw a very different conclusion about all the measures (I concluded framed by their own life experience).  It was then that I realised, that the message from the government in isolation, is simply another part of the problem.


Real Problem:  It should be a spectrum.  We have gone with a Utopian approach to this which is as much in the health services interest, as it is everyone else's and most people who are smart recognise this, and the reality is, that people frame all of whats going on through their life experience and how this has impacted them personally.   The hardest part, is that we haven't really had a proper covid journey, and the few elements we have seen, have seen political backlash (last years aged care in vic).

I can show you a multitude of different videos discussing the nuances of all of this (for and against), and conclude, that someone is correct, but that is just people choosing to believe one thing over another, but when those beliefs are linked to a world view, a lifestyle a method of earning a living, and the Utopian response runs contrary to those things, what do you think the outcome is?

Overwhelming acceptance?  No.  The opposite is true.  It becomes harder to accept. 

This is Portugal's COVID response:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-05/how-portugal-managed-to-have-the-highest-rates-of-vaccination/100514138

Whilst politicians are telling people what to do, in an equation where they don't agree with the pandemic response, because politics, personal situation etc, rather than take the road of mandate (or in their opinion dictate) you open the conversation, and you can actually make more positive change, and win peoples hearts and minds (politicians take note).

You know, in the lead up to getting vaccinated, I did a lot of soul searching (as well as "research")  in the end I discovered a few things about why I wouldn't and largely it was about myself.  Fear was driving me more than critical thinking.  Ego was another.  The fear was the fear of what a "experimental" vaccine might do, and the unknown.  I recognised early through my arrogance that COVID would likely not hurt me.  I feared the vaccine more than covid for various reasons, one being my ego.  Once I recognised this, I had a tumultuous time once again, by my ego which then engaged my critical thinking to "research" Covid, and the stats, and all the data, the vaccines, etc.  Whilst I battled with this, I went to sleep one night, and realised that I fear was once again in the driving seat (its hard to recognise and this is a super long post, apologies and bear with me) and then I recognised a simple truth.  You cant find the answers online, because its an echo chamber.  It is literally going to give you what you look for and thats what the majority of people are finding.  Ways to discredit a pandemic that they deny exists so they wont have to take a vaccine they are fearful of.

Personally, I think that education is best.  If you don't, you can disagree if you like, but the one truth I see coming, is that mandating vaccination is problematic to do with the charter of human rights.  We are going to see a lot of people who may lose their job drag a few things through courts, some people who are trying to simply enforce the mandating of the vaccine are going to cop it in the neck as a consequence, and if we do need this to occur again in future, the government has allowed enough mis-trust of them to fester to the point, where things are problematic, and as EB1 says, its also their workforce in the health system we are talking about here.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 11, 2021, 03:17:59 pm
Great to see you setting such a fine example when it comes to inflammatory and vitriolic remarks. You're nothing but a hypocrite.
Takes one to know one!!

:D

How many posters have you made leave this forum now??
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2021, 03:24:41 pm
Gee, takes one to know one ... that takes me back to primary school days. Didn't you get suspended after your Hitler comment (not that I sought or wished that)? At least you had a bit of time to reflect (though it didn't seem you used the time all that well).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2021, 03:34:01 pm
It's interesting that EVERY State has announced vaccine mandates in the healthcare sector. The US Govt has announced vaccine mandates for federal employees. Italy, France etc. Makes you think, doesn't it?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2021, 04:06:11 pm
By the way, it pisses me off that anti-vaxxers are trying to co-opt “discrimination” in the fight against mandates. There are specific classes of people who are protected from discrimination and anti-vaxxers aren’t one of them. There’s heaps of discrimination that isn’t regulated. If an employer requires a degree or a VCE certificate, that’s allowed. Employers can refuse to employ people with tattoos. Paedophiles aren’t protected from being sacked by schools or childcare centres. Essendon footballers weren’t able to complain about discrimination against athletes who used PEDs. Hell, gay people weren’t even able to use anti-discrimination legislation to avoid being sacked by Catholic schools.

The great thing is that vaccine mandates don’t discriminate against people who hold anti-vax views. If they vaccinate, they can express as much antipathy towards vaccinations as they wish and the mandate won’t stop them working. But try telling a black person s/he can just avoid discrimination by changing his or her skin colour or a gay person can avoid discrimination by praying the gay away ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 11, 2021, 04:07:09 pm
Gee, takes one to know one ... that takes me back to primary school days. Didn't you get suspended after your Hitler comment (not that I sought or wished that)? At least you had a bit of time to reflect (though it didn't seem you used the time all that well).

I would have thought play on would have been the call....  ;) 

Just because I deleted my account at the time, doesnt mean I wasnt reading.




Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 11, 2021, 04:24:59 pm
Lumping people who choose not to get vaccinated against COVID into one category of "anti vaccer" does a lot of people a disservice.

We are simply creating yet another social issue, that we are going to have to solve. 

Quote
Human rights issues

Section 10(c) states that a person must not be subjected to medical treatment without his or her full, free, and informed consent. Because vaccination is a medical procedure, forcing a person to be vaccinated against his or her will is a clear violation of this right.

Section 12 states that every person lawfully within Victoria has the right to move freely within Victoria and to enter and leave it, and has the freedom to choose where to live. Requiring that a person may not travel to his or her place of employment without being vaccinated limits this right.

Section 13 states that a person has the right not to have his or her privacy unlawfully or arbitrarily interfered with. Requiring a person to disclose his or her vaccination status to an employer or a government agency potentially limits this right.

Section 14 states that every person has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, religion, and belief, and that a person must not be coerced or restrained in a way that limits his or her freedom to have or adopt a religion or belief in observance or practice. Conscience is a person’s conviction as to what is right and wrong. Some people may object on political grounds, believing that it is not the proper role of government to force people to be vaccinated, even if they do not object in principle to vaccination. Some people are genuinely concerned that receiving a vaccination poses a substantial risk of physical injury or harm. Some people may object on religious grounds to being vaccinated — for example, because tissue or cells from aborted foetuses have been used in the development of the vaccines. For all these categories of people, forcing a person to be vaccinated violates that person’s freedom of conscience or religious beliefs, or forces them to do something they believe is potentially harmful.

Underlying all the rights protected by the Charter Act is the concept of autonomy and dignity. Each person has the right to determine for himself or herself matters of bodily integrity including whether to be vaccinated.

As we simply create yet another wave of societal issues, we are now going to see a section of society who choose to thumb their nose at the mandates, and I suspect it would have been smaller, and less of a problem, had we just let the virus take care of the anti vaccers, without shoving it down people's throats.

Particularly in the context of people knowing of others who have had adverse reactions to the vaccine, and no one test positive to covid yet. 

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2021, 04:31:03 pm
Good to see you saw what I posted. That's still my view. I'm happy to fight my own battles and I'm happy to cross swords/hatchets with you and bury the hatchets afterwards. But when you start digging up your hatchet, you surely wouldn't mind if I dig mine up too ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2021, 05:01:55 pm
I think you'll find the vaccine mandates have been responsible for increasing the vaccination rates and the number of holdouts has decreased. Overseas experience has shown that 50% of them talk tough to canvassers before D-Day arrives, saying they'd rather quit than be forced into taking the vaccine. But when push comes to shove, only 1-2% follow through.

Personally, I wouldn't mind if the mandates were repealed after the date for full vaccination. That would see most would end up fully vaccinated. But that sort of bluff would destroy the credibility of the government concerned, so that's not going to happen. On the other hand, if a court quashes the mandate after the date for full vaccination, face would be saved. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2021, 05:35:08 pm
Here ya go:   Fewer than than 0.1% of NSW health staff have quit due to Covid vaccination mandates (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/oct/09/less-than-01-of-nsw-health-staff-have-quit-due-to-covid-vaccination-mandates), The Guardian.

Only 136 quit rather than vaccinate. The Liberal Government is crowing that the mayhem predicted by the Labor opposition didn't come to pass.

Quote
But according to Brett Holmes, the general secretary of the NSW Nurses and Midwives Association, opposition to mandates among staff have been overblown. Holmes said that while a small number of his members had resigned after the mandate, feedback suggested many of those were leaving the industry because of what he called “pandemic fatigue”.

But Holmes is concerned about staff shortages. In northern NSW, often held up as a stronghold of vaccine hesitancy, he said shortages had been a problem long before the pandemic.

So it's hard to be exact when it comes to the effect of the vaccine mandate. Some who have quit didn't do so because of the vaccine mandate, but the article also points out that others may be stood down for failing to vaccinate and may quit later.  But it doesn't seem that the feared backlash has occurred.

Final submissions were heard in the NSW Supreme Court cases of Al-Munir Kassam v Bradley Ronald Hazzard & Natasha Henry v Brad Hazzard last Wednesday, so that decision should be handed down reasonably soon.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2021, 06:51:38 pm
Tom Browne says AFL sources suggest vaccinations won't be made mandatory in the AFL but there are only a few hesitants whose hands will be forced anyway as air travel will require vaccination.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 11, 2021, 08:51:31 pm
I had to kick a guy of a construction site today because he wasn't vaccinated.

Initially he played the "but i've got my first jab booked in x weeks" and i felt for him, but it didn't change anything.
Upon further chatting, he ended up going into the usual spiels about dictator dan, how he wants to have kids some day and doesn't want his dna altered by the vaccine which has been 'proven' by videos he's seen on facebook etc etc.
Claims all pro-vaccine ads are paid actors and all the governments of the world are in the pocket of big pharma.

etc.

I'm not sure he ever did have his first jab booked in at all after hearing all that.

I spent a good hour with him chatting about the whole thing and trying to convince him that what he has heard via social media is basically nonsense. I got through a little bit, but an hour long chat is not going to reverse months/years of misinformation programming.

He was a good kid who is very confused.

I think the government needs to get on the front foot and debunk a lot of myths that similar people believe.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 11, 2021, 10:02:15 pm
Which government?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 11, 2021, 10:37:07 pm
I had to kick a guy of a construction site today because he wasn't vaccinated.

Initially he played the "but i've got my first jab booked in x weeks" and i felt for him, but it didn't change anything.
Upon further chatting, he ended up going into the usual spiels about dictator dan, how he wants to have kids some day and doesn't want his dna altered by the vaccine which has been 'proven' by videos he's seen on facebook etc etc.
Claims all pro-vaccine ads are paid actors and all the governments of the world are in the pocket of big pharma.

etc.

I'm not sure he ever did have his first jab booked in at all after hearing all that.

I spent a good hour with him chatting about the whole thing and trying to convince him that what he has heard via social media is basically nonsense. I got through a little bit, but an hour long chat is not going to reverse months/years of misinformation programming.

He was a good kid who is very confused.

I think the government needs to get on the front foot and debunk a lot of myths that similar people believe.


Exactly my point.  18 months into the pandemic and running commentary from the usual suspects but you dont see one proper q and a from epidemiologists or doctors, scientists on television, just Dan, the CHO,  and whomever else they roll out to talk. 

This leaves a vacuum.  One that gets filled by talk with stuff they interpret from a presser, which might be an error, or misquote or whatever. 

They have very much failed to have proper engagement with people about why there is an issue and instead have resorted to the stick in respect to getting vaccinated rather the carrot.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2021, 11:10:29 pm
They bring in an ICU nurse to talk about the horrible experiences of Covid patients and their nurses and anti-vaxxers go to town on her.

They bring in a long-Covid sufferer to talk about the terrible effects it has had on his life and anti-vaxxers dox him, accuse him of lying and being a paid crisis actor etc, etc.

I'm thinking anything the government does by way of education will of itself be seen as proof that the conspiracy theories are true. Why else would the government be lying, presenting crisis actors etc, etc.

There's the conundrum.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 11, 2021, 11:25:38 pm
Exactly my point.  18 months into the pandemic and running commentary from the usual suspects but you dont see one proper q and a from epidemiologists or doctors, scientists on television, just Dan, the CHO,  and whomever else they roll out to talk. 

This leaves a vacuum.  One that gets filled by talk with stuff they interpret from a presser, which might be an error, or misquote or whatever. 

They have very much failed to have proper engagement with people about why there is an issue and instead have resorted to the stick in respect to getting vaccinated rather the carrot.



You must watch different TV Thry.  Dr Norman Swan is a regular on the ABC (TV and radio) and responds to questions from the punters.  Many other doctors, epidemiologists, immunologists, scientists, the team that does the modelling for the CHO, the Doherty Institute, the Garvan Institute, etc, etc are also regulars.

The thing is that the conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers and neo-nazis are deaf to science and logic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on October 12, 2021, 01:41:49 am
The thing is that the conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers and neo-nazis are deaf to science and logic.

For me this is part of the problem, the narrative that has been allowed to develop. Your post is very common now, have a look at the language - "conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers and neo-nazis", and this is demonizing those that feel different to yourself.

If you want people onboard, then you have to speak their language. You don't know their language. Many simply raise their voices, speaking louder and more aggressively expecting that will do something. It just alienates them more.  Name calling and being disparaging is not bringing them with you. Congratulations to all those that engage in it, you have contributed to the beginnings of a resistance. The disaffected and disenfranchised now have a place to call home.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on October 12, 2021, 03:18:33 am
For me this is part of the problem, the narrative that has been allowed to develop. Your post is very common now, have a look at the language - "conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers and neo-nazis", and this is demonizing those that feel different to yourself.

If you want people onboard, then you have to speak their language. You don't know their language. Many simply raise their voices, speaking louder and more aggressively expecting that will do something. It just alienates them more.  Name calling and being disparaging is not bringing them with you. Congratulations to all those that engage in it, you have contributed to the beginnings of a resistance. The disaffected and disenfranchised now have a place to call home.

After reading your post I went back to an article referred to by Mav a few days ago in The Conversation under the heading COVID vaccine hesitancy.  In part, it said:

"People who are hesitant tend to be suspicious of authority.........in many cases we've found that the vaccine hesitant are susceptible to misinformation.
Fuelling this may be a sense of marginalisation.  Vaccine hesitant people are a little more likely to believe that they are of lower social status.  Feeling that society doesn't care about them they are unwilling to trust what they are told by politicians and scientists."

I agree with DJC, and a consistent message explaining the benefits of covid vaccination both for the individual and society in general is delivered clearly by all state premiers, CHOs, medical experts, etc on a daily basis.

I don't think the message is the problem. To me  the problem is that it is not the message the vaccine hesitant want to hear.

I remember earlier this year when Fox News in the USA reluctantly declared Biden the winner of their election.  It was not the news its listeners wanted to hear and within a matter of days a third of them abandoned Fox and went to Far Right radical stations that continued to preach the nonsense they were used to hearing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 12, 2021, 07:17:03 am
Fox news called it marginally later but gave Biden a bigger winning margin when they did because they use different data. But yeah why don't you just make crap up.

Also why are we still going on about antivaxxers? NSW has over 90% and all the other states are following.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 12, 2021, 07:35:18 am
Tom Browne says AFL sources suggest vaccinations won't be made mandatory in the AFL but there are only a few hesitants whose hands will be forced anyway as air travel will require vaccination.

and you won't be allowed in the venues.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 07:43:26 am
Fox news called it marginally later but gave Biden a bigger winning margin when they did because they use different data. But yeah why don't you just make crap up.
No Macca got that right. IIRC, Trump was initially angered by Fox News calling Arizona for Biden before CNN or the broadcast channels and the pro-Trump nighttime hosts were angry the news/election team had undermined the Trump strategy of simply claiming the win (and we know that strategy would continue until Biden’s inauguration and beyond). There were heated phone calls between Trump’s campaign team & Murdoch and Fox with Donnie Jr trying to get involved too. The Trump team kept up the attacks on Fox, and Trump called out Fox for calling the election. The Trump fans turned on Fox and for a time it looked like NewsMaxx & OAN would benefit. I can’t see what you think was made up.

EDIT: Daily Beast has just published this: Trump Whines to Newsmax About Fox News Keeping Analyst Who Called Arizona for Biden (https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-whines-to-newsmax-about-fox-news-keeping-analyst-who-called-arizona-for-biden).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 12, 2021, 07:54:39 am
Good for them being angry but they called it. Fox's projections throughout were more more for Biden than CNN.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 12, 2021, 08:09:27 am
Good for them being angry but they called it. Fox's projections throughout were more more for Biden than CNN.
They(Murdoch News) were trying to stir up trouble, make it seems like the published result didn't match the exit poll data so the nuffies could claim a stolen election and rigged result.

You could be forgiven for thinking that Fox was trying to cause a riot! ;)

Even Murdoch's own family called him out, which is why Fox flipped and Trump then cracked the sads!
PS: The very same flip/thing is happening right now on climate denial, initiated by Murdoch's own family members, now Murdoch's former staunch supporters want to claim the silly old feck has gone senile
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 08:33:50 am
Good for them being angry but they called it. Fox's projections throughout were more more for Biden than CNN.
But that was Macca’s point. The Fox election analysts gave an accurate assessment to their viewers (no one’s disputing that as Fox election analysts are highly regarded)  but rather than accept that information they turned to Newsmax and OAN because they told them what they wanted to hear.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on October 12, 2021, 09:24:07 am
We have some pretty smart folk on here.
We have fairly robust discussions.
We're pointed to a lot of research on a variety of subjects.
The Covid one is no different.

That's not a 'suck-up' it's what I truly believe.
I'm a bit of a mug when it comes to 'in depth' information on this topic.
I got vaccinated because the 'nice' ladies on the telly told me to...and I'm crap scared of getting covid.
So these comments may be full of holes and feel free to point them out.

As MBB pointed out NSW passed the 90% first jab yesterday.
As I mentioned in an earlier post my daughter had an initial booking for her first jab in November but was able to get it moved forward.
NSW would still be doing many first jabs.... so by December that figure would probably be up around the 92-93%
Having had the first jab, you would assume that nearly all those people would have their second and by the end of the year that will be 92-93% double vaccinated.

This rate of vaccination will almost certainly follow the same  trend in Victoria, and even the more hesitant states will also eventually follow.
It probably takes an outbreak to kick start things.

So given at least a 90%  uptake that leaves around 8-10% of folks that might not get vaccinated.
They fall into two groups

The anti- vaxxers...
These folks are zealous. They are as committed to their views as any pro-vaxxer. You will not change their minds. They wont get vaccinated.

Then there is the reluctant vaxxer...
These people are genuinely torn. They're worried about things like side effects, they believe the vaccines have been a bit rushed, they're cautious, and the uncertainty is fuelled by conflicting information they see on the internet. They may be of an age where they believe it's a 50-50 choice -'mild' covid or vaccine...but these people can be convinced.
The question is what's the best way to convince them.
spf and Macca made mention of the language before.
Notice that the Premiers and Health officers don't use harsh language.
It's not a blaming and shaming message.
It's almost a pleading to get vaccinated.
"Do it for your family and friends."
They're also adding benefits like additional freedoms, but it's all done with a positive tone.

So let's assume we eventually move a few of these people.
Suddenly that vaccinated percentage is pushing even higher.

Now the virus is being labelled as the disease of the unvaccinated.
So it stands to reason that those not vaccinated, like the rest of us, will eventually get Covid.
...and with the virus the unvaccinated (those that don't die) will get a degree of natural immunity from having had it.
Then we're all protected (to some extent).
The only real uncertainty is the burden long term health issues will place on the Health systems.

...and perhaps (perish the thought) a mutation that is vaccine resistant, and then we're back to square one.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 09:45:53 am
Just as an aside: Fox News is a bit like Two Faces out of Batman. Many members of the straight news division are highly regarded and their election analyst team is very good. But like a Transylvanian village, things get crazy when night falls. That's when they unleash "personalities" like Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity, Jeannette Pirro and Laura Ingraham. These on-air personalities go out of their way to say they're not journalists and journalistic ethics don't apply to them.

For instance, when Tucker Carlson and Fox were sued for defamation, the judge summarised the (successful) argument of the Fox News lawyers:

Quote
Fox persuasively argues that given Mr. Carlson's reputation, any reasonable viewer 'arrive(s) with an appropriate amount of skepticism' about the statement he makes.
...
Whether the Court frames Mr. Carlson's statements as 'exaggeration,' 'non-literal commentary.' or simply bloviating for his audience, the conclusion remains the same - the statements are not actionable."

It's astounding that Fox would attack the credibility of its biggest star, but he isn't a news guy.

On the other hand, Chris Wallace, Shep Smith and Neil Cavuto are held in high esteem by journos and hosts on other channels. In particular, Chris Wallace, a registered Democrat, is news royalty given his father Mike Wallace was a big star and former 60 Minutes host and he's a feared interviewer. Shep Smith has now gone to NBC but it's incredible he spent the last 2 years at Fox after coming out as gay; imagine what the Fox viewers thought about that!

I'd expect the same would be true to an extent with Sky News over here (although I've never bothered to watch it). David Speers was a Chris Wallace type at Sky before crossing to the ABC recently. But then you have your Alan Jones, Andrew Bolt & Peta Credlin types who wouldn't claim to be "fair and balanced", the motto of Fox News. 

So, when I make disparaging comments about Fox, I'm not putting everyone at that channel in the same boat (but just about every nighttime host is on that plague ship). 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 12, 2021, 10:00:30 am
I've a psychologist / psychiatrist friend who continually corrects me for the use of inclusive language, not because she doesn't understand what I'm saying or that she thinks I'm racial, but because many either won't understand, will switch off or will deliberately hear what they want to hear rather than listen to the points under debate.

But the use of inclusive language can be a tell, for example when a clear minority uses inclusive terms like 'we', 'they', 'us', etc., etc., and even 'you' or 'I' is often a sign they believe everybody is onboard with their position. That perspective might not be the fault of the minority, it can be a falsity promulgated by social media algorithms that reinforce the false perspective by delivering whatever makes the user click on more links.

Users actually have to actively and deliberately work against the algorithm to get a balanced perspective, and it's something law makers in many countries are now looking to change through legislation. I'm not sure that anyone can put the AI back in the bottle, but the best way to keep it under control might be to make it's masters accountable.

There is some irony hidden here, in that if traditional media acted this way the social media entities like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Google would explode with criticism!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 12, 2021, 10:01:31 am
When the government removed the ability to litigate if the vaccines proved problematic then you created suspicion and doubt.
You also had vaccines being made available to certain age groups and other age groups were denied the same choices so you created a divide in the community.
Dan fecked up quarantine, lied so why would anyone trust anything coming out of his mouth especially a mandate supported by heavy handed police action. That's China or Nth Korean style politics...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 12, 2021, 10:07:06 am
When the government removed the ability to litigate if the vaccines proved problematic then you created suspicion and doubt.
Why do people who can have the vaccine but refuse to have it still hold the right to sue for COVID treatment, or sue for harm as a result of failed or imperfect COVID treatment?

I have no problems with the legal stance to protect health care workers(Like your family) and the health care system, that is basically what the law is about, stopping innocent bystanders become collateral damage and stopping spurious claims being weaponised to cripple the system. At the time the laws were introduced there were doctors communicating threats made against them by the anti-vax movement, threats which were designed to scare doctors and health workers away from participation in the vaccination effort.

To me the law just didn't go far enough, if someone can have a vaccine but refuse it then they shouldn't be able to sue the health care workers or system for the harm COVID or a COVID treatment does. Refusing COVID treatment is always an option, but it seems very few do!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 10:10:14 am
Heavy-handed police action? Wow, that's a bit of an exaggeration right there. Has a goon squad been formed I don't know about with batons at the ready?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 12, 2021, 10:12:59 am
Heavy-handed police action? Wow, that's a bit of a tell right there. Has a goon squad been formed I don't know about with batons at the ready?

A tell of what?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 12, 2021, 10:18:01 am
a mandate supported by heavy handed police action.
Didn't the crowd charged the police @ElwoodBlues1‍ , wasn't that the moment it all changed?

Prior to that moment, the police seemed to be doing what they normally do for any such mass protest, and it was quite interesting to see the length the protestors would go to persuade the public, burly building workers dressing up as elderly women for example. Yet I'm apparently misinformed and mislead by the other side of the debate!

I don't see VicPol in clown suits or goose stepping down Collins St!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 10:20:52 am
I'm happy to amend that, MBB. Hopefully EB can explain how the police enforcing a vaccine mandate (which is restricted at this stage to policing aggressive protests and might in future entail attending premises where unvaccinated people react aggressively to being denied entry) would be heavy handed. Should police refuse to enforce the law (as some Sheriffs do in the US)? Let's assume the Victorian Supreme Court rejects attempts to invalidate the mandate. Would it then be okay for the police to intervene if violence or criminal damage is threatened or occurring?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 12, 2021, 10:40:41 am
Watch the news, police throwing punches football style, a senior police officer just resigned.
@ElwoodBlues1‍ acting a bit like Murdoch and misrepresenting a circumstance doesn't make a perspective right.

The officers own union issued a public statement hope that she gets the help she requires, with a message that concluded with contact details for mental health lines, I suppose not all the officer's duress is applied from one side of the debate, which seems a reasonable position given the area she specifically worked in!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 10:55:42 am
It seems you would advocate defunding the police, EB! You know there are many occasions where the police abuse their powers but no doubt you would say that those are the exception not the rule and shouldn't be used to taint the police as a whole. Yet in this case you suggest that examples of police going off on a frolic of their own should be used to taint the laws being enforced and the lawmakers' intentions. Did Dan Andrews urge police to use unlawful force? Maybe you have some private information about that, but it doesn't seem that anything in the public domain would support such a claim.

The difficulty of putting up anecdotal evidence of police that you know is that it's hard to refute what may be patent exaggerations. But in this case I'm happy to call BS. So Dan wanted police to "arrest mums and their kids" in the playground according to your impeccable sources. Really? I'm surprised your sources were in direct contact with him. Do you think that he might have expected fines to be handed out? Maybe you could get some photos of baby-sized handcuffs police were sent to round up offending toddlers.

And it's okay for police to use pepper spray and batons on the streets but not against violent protesters? How did the anti-vaxxers obtain an immunity from methods the police use generally? If you don't like the use of pepper spray and batons, you should be campaigning against their use by police, period. Tell your police mates/family they should refuse to carry them or use them. Make a stand on ethics which isn't situational. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 12, 2021, 11:02:26 am
You must watch different TV Thry.  Dr Norman Swan is a regular on the ABC (TV and radio) and responds to questions from the punters.  Many other doctors, epidemiologists, immunologists, scientists, the team that does the modelling for the CHO, the Doherty Institute, the Garvan Institute, etc, etc are also regulars.

All I am trying to say, is compare this to the coverage Megan Markle received when her and Harry shed their royal titles for a moment or the latest series of the bachelor.  I say a proper community engagment Q&A not reporters asking stage managed questions.  If Joe Bloggs from Croydon could send in a question, it would go much further than a reporter asking someone a staged managed question, but I also recognise that these things could be twisted by the wrong people, and that the answers are not clear cut too in some cases which could also cause a bit of a stir (in fact, this might be more of an issue than not).

The ABC isn't quite the place for a lot of the people who would rather watch netflix and pay tv, and I recognise the challenge, but I think there is a disconnect between government and capturing the publics attention, and I point back to the echo chamber that is the internet (and is definately the tool of choice for the people most likely to resist vaccination).

I've found out more information from the show question everything which is rather satirical, and this forum than I have from the idiot box.  There is a reason it has that term, but frankly, thats where this should be run and won.

I know plenty of people who turned off the press conferences, when it became very apparent that they weren't being transparent with what they knew (*but I understand that its difficult to be that transparent when you are quoted as stating you will provide 4000 beds).  I had never heard of Norman Swan until your post as one more example of what I am talking about. 

Quote
The thing is that the conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers and neo-nazis are deaf to science and logic.

This is not what these people are.

Anti-Vaxxers.  They are not instituting the final solution.  Most of them actually live their lives a bit like hippies.  They eat clean, they grow their own produce, they shop at farmers markets, they buy natural remedies, they try and stay organic, they have gluten/fodmap diets and intolerances or generally just a bit of different (note, different, not better or worse) view of what is healthy for people.  They are very conscious of what goes into their bodies and dont necessarily believe that modern medicine is out to help people because unfortunately, we live a very consumer based lifestyle, and lots of our modern medicines are synthetic versions of naturally occurring things that are being monetised in the health system (according to them, I recognise, that this is not 100% correct, but there are circumstances where it is).  These are the people I know of.  They live in green wedge, and try and get outdoors, walk around in nature barefoot to ground themselves and believe that community is important, and they have been isolated from their support networks.  They do tend to get hoodwinked by the Qanon conspiracies, and believe in a bunch of crap to go with it, but they do no harm to others and tend to look at most of the Trumpish stuff from the sidelines (genuinely the people I know, are your stand up, walk hard, corporate white collar types) but have genuinely been left with a feeling of not knowing what to believe anymore.

Neo-nazis.  Who are these people?  Where do you find them, and what subset of society do they actually occupy?  The answer, is that this is a throw away term to label people who just dont see the world the way people do.  Conspiracy theorists...  Its the year 2021, and we label a hair dryer with warning labels, not to use in the shower.  Some of them are just idiotic, but the reality is, that the internet is a powerful propaganda tool, and instagram is perpetuating false body images to people who should and do know better, but cannot see past the filters because of a trigger it gives them.  Flat earthers are a thing again, because some very convincing arguments make their way onto the internet, until you remember about the story of Eratosthenes, and how he was able to guess the circumference of the earth within a very small variance of error, just by measuring the suns shadow. 

I prefer to put these people in a different camp.  They are just like those suffering with poor mental health.  They usually latch onto these things, to explain away part of life that they cannot rationalise in their own minds.

How do we deal with people suffering with their mental health?  We dont judge them, we support them, we listen to them, and once they feel heard, usually they start to heal and will come along.

Mav stated something earlier about the mandates abroad.  These sections of society exist everywhere, and there are varying degrees with how this will be policed.  In Greece, the majority of the country has been non smoking for the last 20 years but it was common to see people smoking right next to a no smoking sign with no ramification.  The cultures are different, and there are better ways to bring these people to the party.  Hell, letting them have the experience of finding out a loved one got sick with COVID, will make it real enough for them to buy in, and these guys are not going to flood the system.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 12, 2021, 11:07:23 am
There is SOOO much to play out here, it is becoming really serious.  The wagons are circling.




  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 11:44:19 am
I’m glad to see there’s support for minority vetoes over laws passed by democratically-elected governments and legislatures. But it shouldn’t be just a right-wing veto. For instance, union-busting legislation should be ignored. By all means, allow courts to issue orders pursuant to those laws but those orders shouldn’t be enforced at all. Everyone should treat them as if they were just opinion letters published in newspapers and the police should just refuse to enforce them. Fair’s fair, after all.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 12, 2021, 11:47:58 am
@ElwoodBlues1‍ acting a bit like Murdoch and misrepresenting a circumstance doesn't make a perspective right.

The officers own union issued a public statement hope that she gets the help she requires, with a message that concluded with contact details for mental health lines, I suppose not all the officer's duress is applied from one side of the debate, which seems a reasonable position given the area she specifically worked in!

Everyone has agendas.

The ABC labelled some youtube streamer called the real Ruskan Fake News! This dude just walks around filming protests live unedited, he barely speaks lol.

How is that fake?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 12, 2021, 11:54:36 am
I'm happy to amend that, MBB. Hopefully EB can explain how the police enforcing a vaccine mandate (which is restricted at this stage to policing aggressive protests and might in future entail attending premises where unvaccinated people react aggressively to being denied entry) would be heavy handed. Should police refuse to enforce the law (as some Sheriffs do in the US)? Let's assume the Victorian Supreme Court rejects attempts to invalidate the mandate. Would it then be okay for the police to intervene if violence or criminal damage is threatened or occurring?

I'm fine with law and order applied across the board.

Violent protesters- arrest.
Peaceful protesters- let them go.

There was one protest a while ago that the police told them to move on. The group all moved on their separate ways to their train lines but the cops followed one group and attacked them, unprovoked.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 12:02:34 pm
I'd also be happy to let peaceful protesters go (save I'd draw a line at neo-nazis marching thru the streets with Tiki torches yelling anti-semitic slogans). But while I don't condone police use of excessive force, exposing a wider segment of the community to it means it's not so easy for it to be ignored.  It was probably a bit of an eye-opener for EB, for instance.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 12, 2021, 12:51:56 pm
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria-s-outbreak-response-a-template-for-what-not-to-do-20211012-p58z5n.html

Crisis reveals character and can lead to political revolutions. The Long Depression of the late 1800s sent shockwaves around the globe and, in The Origins of Totalitarianism, Hannah Arendt credits it with giving birth to the New Imperialism that drove the dire scramble for Africa.

The depression hit Australia hard in the 1890s fomenting a brutal confrontation between employers and trade unions that gave birth to the Australian Labor Party.

In the run-up to Federation, the division that animated politics in Australia’s colonies was the split between the Free Traders, who held sway in NSW, and the Protectionists, who dominated Victoria. The power of labour lay not in colonial parliaments but in its unions.

The battle between bosses and workers exploded in June 1890 when a wrenching maritime strike began with wharfies refusing to handle wool that had been shorn by non-union labour.

A 13-year-old Jack Lang witnessed a clash outside his home on Sydney’s Liverpool Street, as workers tipped wool bales off wagons bound for the port. In I Remember, the future Labor premier recounts that a delegation of employers implored acting Premier Sir William McMillan to issue arms to the troops and put down what they called “an insurrection”. McMillan agreed but an appalled Sir Henry Parkes left his sickbed to countermand the order, reprimanding McMillan whose political career never recovered.

Attitudes were different in Victoria. There, Cabinet ordered the troops to arms and “the city [was] placarded with the Unlawful Assemblies Act”.

On the evening of August 30, ahead of a trade union rally the next day, the commanding officer of the Victorian Mounted Rifles, Lieutenant Colonel Tom Price, addressed his men in a speech that that would ricochet around the nation.

“Let there be no half measures,” the colonel said. “You will each be supplied with forty rounds of ammunition and leaden bullets, and if the order is given to fire don’t let me see one rifle pointed up in the air. Fire low and lay them out ...lay the disturbers of law and order out so that the duty will not again have to be performed. Let it be a lesson to them.”

The protest was peaceful and the Victorian Premier, of course, disavowed the sentiment uttered by the offending officer he had ordered on to the streets.

Much has changed in 131 years and much appears to be much the same. Responding to the same crisis, NSW and Victoria have cut different paths. In the eyes of the neo-protectionist “progressives”, the great crime of former premier Gladys Berejiklian was to have a “mockdown”; that is to err on the side of leaving her people free for as long as possible.

Happily we got to witness a real-time, real-world example of the many benefits of a proper lockdown in a demographically identical jurisdiction. Its world-leading exponent, Victorian Premier Dan Andrews, rolled off the bench to fire low and lay the disease out.

And the evidence is in. When the lockdowns are lined up from day zero NSW did significantly better than Victoria on every day in both suppressing the disease and in lifting the vaccination rate. There has also been less civil disorder.

It turns out that when you reflexively imprison people they get sick of it. Some take to the streets in protest and, clearly, a great many others just silently disobey the absurd demands of their overlords. When the dust settles on this pandemic and the world assesses how to deal with a future crisis Victoria will be used as a template of what not to do.

Through Berejiklian and now Dominic Perrottet, NSW is beating the trail for Australia because no matter what the COVID-free states might believe, they are behind, not ahead, on the path out. One day, they will have to exit by the same door. Their great advantage is time, and they are squandering it by not forcing the pace of vaccination.

Soon a royal commission should be called into the COVID-19 responses of all Australian governments, with the sole aim of learning from our successes and mistakes.

That is what Parkes did in an effort to trace the causes of the strikes. It led to the establishment of the first machinery of conciliation and arbitration. Lang recalled that Parkes was invited to address a trade union conference where he offered some telling advice.

“Instead of breaking the law, why don’t you send your own members into Parliament and make the laws so that there will be no need to break them,” Parkes said.

The first branch of what would become the Australian Labor Party was formed in Balmain and 52 candidates were selected to contest the 1891 NSW election. Just months later, in their first electoral battle, the nascent party won 35 seats.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 12, 2021, 12:54:38 pm
How is that fake?
I suppose it depends if what he all that he films is real or artificially orchestrated.

I believe it was alleged or exposed that he or someone connected to him was actually facilitating some events, creating their own news as it were, which is a tad ironic!

I suppose, everyone has agendas, are all agendas equal?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 12, 2021, 01:00:10 pm
Through Berejiklian and now Dominic Perrottet, NSW is beating the trail for Australia because no matter what the COVID-free states might believe, they are behind, not ahead, on the path out. One day, they will have to exit by the same door. Their great advantage is time, and they are squandering it by not forcing the pace of vaccination.
I'm not sure, and I'm not omnipotent, but that last sentence seems to be a direct contradiction of the articles general conclusion.

I would have thought compulsory vaccination is effectively forcing the pace of vaccination, and it looks to be working! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 01:01:23 pm
Interesting thoughts on Chris Uhlmann in Crikey (https://www.crikey.com.au/2017/08/25/abc-political-editor-chris-uhlmann-has-to-go/).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 12, 2021, 01:03:37 pm
Interesting thoughts on Chris Uhlmann in Crikey (https://www.crikey.com.au/2017/08/25/abc-political-editor-chris-uhlmann-has-to-go/).
Regardless of his political of social bent, when publishing an article it pays to be referentially self-consistent.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 12, 2021, 01:04:05 pm
I suppose it depends if what he all that he films is real or artificially orchestrated.

I believe it was alleged or exposed that he or someone connected to him was actually facilitating some events, creating their own news as it were, which is a tad ironic!

I suppose, everyone has agendas, are all agendas equal?

I watched him live on youtube for about 10 minutes one morning (There was hardly anyone there) and he was just walking around. He was asked about 5 times for his press ID in the short time I viewed. The police handcuffed and arrested a young asian woman who couldn't or wouldn't tell them why she was out. The police let some other guys (who actually looked like protestors) go after their ID checked out and they were told to put their masks on.

The footage was unedited.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 12, 2021, 01:09:36 pm
The footage was unedited.
No doubt, I never claimed all his work was staged.

It's a bit like a lie, get caught just once it throws everything into disregard, we sack politicians just being caught once, so that is the defacto standard for all public commentary. I'd be a hypocrite if I bagged News Ltd and didn't highlight such questions directed at independents as well.

Let's not forget, people watching him on Youtube earns him money, and money corrupts, he isn't doing this out of the good of his heart!

Perhaps even worse, he answers to nobody, not to a shareholder, not to a board, probably just his bank balance and conscience!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 01:10:27 pm
Regardless of his political of social bent, when publishing an article it pays to be referentially self-consistent.
True. I also noted that paragraph when I read it. But remember he was really only addressing lockdowns and said nothing about vaccine mandates (and NSW imposed its vaccine mandate in the health sector before Victoria). Yet the article is apparently being cited as a criticism of vaccine mandates given that this is the issue du jour.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 12, 2021, 01:10:45 pm
I'm not sure, and I'm not omnipotent, but that last sentence seems to be a direct contradiction of the articles general conclusion.

I would have thought compulsory vaccination is effectively forcing the pace of vaccination, and it looks to be working! :o

It has pushed indecisive people over the line (3 contractors at work are getting it done today) but we have outcast "anti vaxxers". There is one antivaxxer at my work and he is one of the nicest blokes you could ever meet. A lot nicer than any of us in this thread lol and certainly not a neo nazi. He is taking a month off Long Service Leave hoping the mandate goes away.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 12, 2021, 01:17:20 pm
True. I also noted that paragraph when I read it. But remember he was really only addressing lockdowns and said nothing about vaccine mandates (and NSW imposed its vaccine mandate in the health sector before Victoria). Yet the article is apparently being cited as a criticism of vaccine mandates given that this is the issue du jour.
having worked in the industry, I know very well that articles like this, professional articles, are deliberately fashioned to be ambiguous, they are designed to capture as many people from both sides of the argument as possible and will discard credibility as part of doing that!

Interestingly, the internet has greatly reduced the quality of such commentary, because in the past the content passed through a phalanx of sub-editors and editors who would pick it apart, have it reviewed and revised, fact checked long before it hit the street. Now sometimes it's published isn't even passed over by the legal department and gets tagged as 'opinion' to avoid liability.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 01:31:51 pm
MBB, I don’t think there’s a suggestion that anti-vaxxers are all neo-Nazis or even natural allies. The concern is that the neo-Nazis, alt-Right, and anti-vaxxers have promoted Covid-related protests as a recruiting tool. Your average Covid-vaccine-hesitant isn’t going to be attacking police or harassing health workers. For the committed anti-vaxxer, Covid vaccines are just another vaccine that pisses them off. The MMR vaccine is still front and centre.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 12, 2021, 01:43:36 pm
It has pushed indecisive people over the line (3 contractors at work are getting it done today) but we have outcast "anti vaxxers". There is one antivaxxer at my work and he is one of the nicest blokes you could ever meet. A lot nicer than any of us in this thread lol and certainly not a neo nazi. He is taking a month off Long Service Leave hoping the mandate goes away.

Thats roughly the description of the bloke I work with.

Married, 3 kids.  Naturapathic lifestyle, has sworn away all sorts of foods that dont agree with him, stays off sugar, doesnt smoke, doesn't really drink alcohol, believes in the healing power of dandelion tea, and the sun, takes his shoes and socks off whenever we are at a park.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 02:01:06 pm
That's why vaccine mandates are so good. These 2 guys are lambs to the slaughter when it comes to Covid. Call me cynical, but naturopathic remedies would be as effective as crucifixes in warding off the Delta variant. Employers are then given motivation to redeploy them away from the front line. Not only do they benefit but the community does as well. Win-win.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 12, 2021, 02:04:00 pm
Ruskan is a mate of Avi Yemeni who draws plenty of heat from all areas of the community and authorities would see him as a problem child like AY.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 02:36:45 pm
Crikey's take on the Real Rukshan: click HERE (https://www.crikey.com.au/2021/09/24/real-rukshan-live-stream-melbourne-protest/)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 12, 2021, 02:49:10 pm
MBB, I don’t think there’s a suggestion that anti-vaxxers are all neo-Nazis or even natural allies. The concern is that the neo-Nazis, alt-Right, and anti-vaxxers have promoted Covid-related protests as a recruiting tool. Your average Covid-vaccine-hesitant isn’t going to be attacking police or harassing health workers. For the committed anti-vaxxer, Covid vaccines are just another vaccine that pisses them off. The MMR vaccine is still front and centre.

We need a label for XR and ANTIFA.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 02:58:33 pm
You're joking, right? ANTIFA is a label. It's just a shortening of anti-fascist, and just describes people who counter-protest against fascists as in Charlottesville. Yet Trump and conservatives like to treat it as a gang or party with some central organisation. Even the FBI has acknowledged it isn't a group, it's an ideology.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 03:05:51 pm
The Governor of Texas, Gregt Abbott, has become the saviour of those who are concerned for their autonomy over their own bodies:
Texas Governor Bans All Vaccine Mandates In The State (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/texas-governor-ban-vaccine-mandates_n_6164c509e4b0c1ab4bb7adbe), Huffpost.

As vaccine protestors would say, "My body, my choice". The only problem with that is that such protestors have hijacked that slogan from the pro-Choice movement and yet Abbott signed into law an anti-abortion law that enables anti-abortion activists to sue anyone who gives any assistance to those who seek abortions, even if that's just giving them a lift. It seems that the right to control one's own body free of government interference is a bit of a slippery concept.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 12, 2021, 04:36:49 pm
Crikey's take on the Real Rukshan: click HERE (https://www.crikey.com.au/2021/09/24/real-rukshan-live-stream-melbourne-protest/)

All I did was click on your link and read the article and now my phone is getting alerts saying thanks for subscribing to crikey.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 04:44:42 pm
I clicked on the link I posted (which is just what you get when you google Rukshan) and there's nothing like that on my end. There's a blocked pop-up saying Crikey wants to send notifications, but that's pretty standard when you surf the net. Perhaps time to adjust your settings?

There's also a banner headline giving the option to subscribe as there is with most news sites. You didn't get click-happy did you?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 12, 2021, 04:47:17 pm
Open the link in a private browser session/tab and it opens up fine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 12, 2021, 04:54:44 pm
For those interested in a bit more depressing, not rapidly vaccinating the globe is becoming a huge issue.

I heard an epidemiologist complaining that there is now an Ebola outbreak happening in tandem with a COVID outbreak. Apparently this is very bad news, as in keep virologists up at night bad news, it seems if a patient gets both there is a small possibility the two somehow combine to make a new super-virus. I thought they were taking the piss like a Hollywood movie script!

I was waiting for the virologist who was also on the panel to step in a kybosh the idea, but they didn't, I'm not sure what to think of that silence! :o

Apparently, one of the mechanisms that Sars-CoV-2 might diversify itself is to combine with the product of some other common virus, even like a rhinovirus(common cold). The more people that get infected, no matter how severe, the greater than chance of it happening!

The one and only truly good solution with a chance of working, get vaccinated!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 04:58:40 pm
There has certainly been commentary from experts before that different variants of Covid can result in a recombination which combines the most troubling aspects of those variants. Of course, it requires the patient to catch both. But I haven't heard of 2 different viruses combining in that way.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 12, 2021, 05:00:50 pm
There has certainly been commentary from experts before that different variants of Covid can result in a recombination which combines the most troubling aspects of those variants. Of course, it requires the patient to catch both. But I haven't heard of 2 different viruses combining in that way.
I have heard of two versions of COVID in one patient though, I suppose it depends on the mechanics or chemistry of the situation.

Basically, they said if there are enough such cases, it will happen eventually, I presume they mean case counts in the millions.

Cynics will claim researchers talking about this stuff are just using scare tactics to encourage vaccination, but they weren't particularly emotive about the issue, just talked some cold hard facts and highlighted that while the chance isn't high, it is not zero either.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 05:05:12 pm
The most bizarre thing I read (and I posted it at some stage in this thread) is that preventing Delta from coming into Australia wouldn't have guaranteed that we wouldn't have ended up with Delta. Supposedly, it's only a matter of time for such a mutation to develop if Covid circulates in the community. If it evolves to become the dominant strain overseas, evolution says it will develop that way here too.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 12, 2021, 05:29:00 pm
For me this is part of the problem, the narrative that has been allowed to develop. Your post is very common now, have a look at the language - "conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers and neo-nazis", and this is demonizing those that feel different to yourself.

If you want people onboard, then you have to speak their language. You don't know their language. Many simply raise their voices, speaking louder and more aggressively expecting that will do something. It just alienates them more.  Name calling and being disparaging is not bringing them with you. Congratulations to all those that engage in it, you have contributed to the beginnings of a resistance. The disaffected and disenfranchised now have a place to call home.

Actually, what I wrote is correct, and I could have added a few more groups such as anarchists, alt right, far left, etc.

People with vaccine hesitancy are not necessarily deaf to science and logic but "conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers and neo-nazis" are.

I have friends and family who are/were vaccine hesitant and many are now vaccinated; some because they accepted the overwhelming evidence, some because it was necessary for them to keep their job, and some because of peer pressure.  Some justify their position by reference to common conspiracy theories and that, to me, makes them conspiracy theorists.

A good friend is computer scientist/data analyst who is currently studying for a second degree in earth science.  Her father is an eminent doctor in Malaysia.  She describes herself as vaccine hesitant but, when explaining her hesitancy, referred me to a speech by Eric Clapton.  Now, Eric is one of my favourite musicians but, apart from the fact that he knows nothing about medicine, science, immunology, epidemiology, etc, his speech simply trotted out the same tired old conspiracy theories.  Is my friend vaccine hesitant or a conspiracy theorist?  Hint; she's into doomsday prepping.

Another friend also describes herself as vaccine hesitant but is also anti-lockdown, anti-mask and dubious about how real COVID is.  She explains her vaccine hesitancy as concern about the side-effects.  Yesterday she announced that she was going to be vaccinated in order to keep her job and asked if folk could tell her what side-effects they had experienced.  Of course, some folk had mild side-effects but most said that it was business as usual.  So, her vaccine hesitancy was based on a fear of something she hadn't bothered to investigate.  Rather than talking to her GP, her "investigation" involved posting a question on Facebook  ::)

Other friends are committed vegans and anti-vaxxers; their children are not vaccinated at all and I think their grandchildren aren't vaccinated either.  Nice people, and very successful, but the mumbo-jumbo they use to explain their anti-vaxxer beliefs is trying ... and they look sickly to me  :-\

Also why are we still going on about antivaxxers? NSW has over 90% and all the other states are following.

MBB poses a valid question; it looks like those who won't or can't be vaccinated will make up an insignificant part of our population and the threat of transmission from them will probably decrease as they follow the "natural" path to herd immunity.  However, they may still pose a threat in the short term as did the two unvaccinated, COVID-infected cardiac surgery nurses in a Sydney hospital recently.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 12, 2021, 05:45:58 pm
You're joking, right? ANTIFA is a label. It's just a shortening of anti-fascist, and just describes people who counter-protest against fascists as in Charlottesville. Yet Trump and conservatives like to treat it as a gang or party with some central organisation. Even the FBI has acknowledged it isn't a group, it's an ideology.

I don't need a lesson from you regarding what the acronym ANTIFA represents.  >:(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 12, 2021, 05:51:01 pm



I clicked on the link I posted (which is just what you get when you google Rukshan) and there's nothing like that on my end. There's a blocked pop-up saying Crikey wants to send notifications, but that's pretty standard when you surf the net. Perhaps time to adjust your settings?

There's also a banner headline giving the option to subscribe as there is with most news sites. You didn't get click-happy did you?

I did update my phone last week so it might be a Google Chrome setting.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 12, 2021, 05:52:36 pm
The family I know who got covid are not allowed to get vaccinated for 6 months.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 12, 2021, 06:03:28 pm
The family I know who got covid are not allowed to get vaccinated for 6 months.

Interesting!

The guidelines say:

Quote
Vaccination can be deferred for up to 6 months as past infection reduces the chance of reinfection for at least this amount of time.

There is no requirement to delay vaccination.

There seems to be plenty of vaccine so it wouldn't be to eke out supplies.  Perhaps it's just someone mis-reading the guidelines and that wouldn't be a first.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 12, 2021, 06:15:25 pm
@DJC
You also need to be full health to get the jab.

Guy i know who got Covid said it took him 6 months to get back to 'normal'.

So maybe thats why the 6 month wait was mentioned.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 12, 2021, 06:38:02 pm
@DJC
You also need to be full health to get the jab.

Guy i know who got Covid said it took him 6 months to get back to 'normal'.

So maybe thats why the 6 month wait was mentioned.

Yep, the guidelines go on to state:

Quote
People should not be vaccinated until they have recovered from the acute illness.

If a patient tests positive for COVID-19 between their first and second doses, the patient should not receive their second dose until they have recovered from the acute illness.

People with prolonged symptoms from COVID-19 beyond 6 months should be vaccinated on a case by case basis.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 12, 2021, 06:51:07 pm
The Vaccine hesitant, anti vaxxers are not white supremacists looking to create a fascist state along the lines of Hitler.
Hitler was a believer in Vaccines but actually relaxed smallpox mandates on vaccines hoping to remove more " inferiors from the planet" A quote from Hitler in 1942 ...

In the field of public health there is no need whatsoever to extend to the subject races the benefits of our own knowledge. This would result only in an enormous increase in local populations, and I absolutely forbid the organization of any sort of hygiene or cleanliness crusades in these territories. Compulsory vaccination will be confined to Germans alone, and the doctors in the German colonies will be there solely for the purpose of looking after the German colonists. It is stupid to thrust happiness upon people against their wishes. Dentistry, too, should remain a closed book to them.

So Hitler was pro vaccine but didnt want to share it with those he wished to exterminate...so I think we need to drop the anti vaxxers are all neo nazis  theory because its incorrect and abusive. They might not want the vaccine but its not because they want to setup a fascist state as we already have one of those in Victoria or close to it..
Maybe we can have a night of the long knives and get rid of those brown shirted anti vaxxers and vax hestitant inferiors, might as well get the street people, homeless, over 80's and make a night of it...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 07:03:16 pm
Not sure who you think is equating anti-vaxxers & neo-Nazis, EB, but this is what I wrote a couple of pages back:
Quote
MBB, I don’t think there’s a suggestion that anti-vaxxers are all neo-Nazis or even natural allies. The concern is that the neo-Nazis, alt-Right, and anti-vaxxers have promoted Covid-related protests as a recruiting tool. Your average Covid-vaccine-hesitant isn’t going to be attacking police or harassing health workers. For the committed anti-vaxxer, Covid vaccines are just another vaccine that pisses them off. The MMR vaccine is still front and centre.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 07:12:19 pm
I don't need a lesson from you regarding what the acronym ANTIFA represents.  >:(
It's not an acronym as the letters aren't the initial letters of other words. It's a shortening. But at least you're aware its a label, so there's no need for another label to describe it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 12, 2021, 07:13:04 pm
Not sure who you think is equating anti-vaxxers & neo-Nazis, EB, but this is what I wrote a couple of pages back:
Mav, I am just commenting on the neo nazi fascist tag that gets used to describe anti vaxxers as a throw away line and how extreme and ignorant it is. I think someone else said same, maybe Thry and just wanted to point out that is a incorrect description and that we need to be careful how we label people.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 07:25:01 pm
Sure, I agree with that. Many groups aren't homogenous blocs and there's a lot of different influences within them. I doubt the Nimbin anti-vaxxers are even conservative. They fit more into the hippy left or anarchist category if anything. But there can be some pretty strange bedfellows. One that surprised me is that Muhammad Ali met with the KKK as he shared the view that it was better to keep whites and blacks separate. A popular saying in the US is "It's complicated ...".
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 12, 2021, 07:45:50 pm
It's not an acronym as the letters aren't the initial letters of other words. It's a shortening. But at least you're aware its a label, so there's no need for another label to describe it.

Patronising at your absolute best ... pathetic really
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 08:46:26 pm
Good to see you dealing with the point there.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 11:13:29 pm
According to news.com.au:
Quote
The news comes as the Victorian government announced it is splashing hundreds of millions of dollars to help boost the state’s public health capacity for increased Covid infections once the state opens up.
The Andrews government will also spend $2.5m in a desperate bid to lure more healthcare workers to the state to help fight the Covid pandemic.
Health Minister Martin Foley announced the multimillion-dollar investment as the state recorded an additional 1466 new locally acquired Covid-19 cases and eight more deaths on Tuesday.
Mr Foley said the package would help recruit up to 1000 healthcare workers living overseas to help ease the pressure on Victoria’s hospital staff dealing with Covid.
“This group will largely be made up of returning Australians who have wanted to come back to our healthcare workforce,” he said.
Nurses, doctors, midwives and a range of allied health professionals will be recruited under the plan.
“To be eligible for this program, healthcare workers need to have an existing employment contract with a Victorian healthcare service and have the active professional registration in place and to be ready to travel,” Mr Foley said.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 11:23:34 pm
A cross-party report has slammed Boris’ Covid response:
UK lawmakers slam government's 'reactive' early Covid response in new report (https://edition.cnn.com/2021/10/12/europe/uk-covid-response-report-intl-hnk/index.html), CNN.
Quote
Among the biggest failures of the government's approach was an initial policy at the start of the pandemic of trying to manage the spread of Covid, rather than stop it spreading altogether, the lawmakers said.
They also criticized a delayed lockdown, failures in the UK's contact-tracing program, and a lack of attention given to the most vulnerable, specifically those in the social care sector and at-risk communities -- namely Black, Asian and other ethnic minorities. The report also said there was little interest in learning from the experiences of other countries, such as those in East Asia that were the first to deal with the pandemic.
One bright spot for the UK government, however, is the speedy and effective deployment of its vaccine program, the report highlighted.
...
The report said the government -- backed by scientific advisers -- made a "serious early error" during the first three months of the pandemic by not rigorously moving to stop the virus' spread, an approach adopted by many East and Southeast Asian countries.
"This amounted in practice to accepting that herd immunity by infection was the inevitable outcome," the report said, with the likely result in "hundreds of thousands of deaths."
The UK&#39;s troubled coronavirus response becomes more complicated
The UK's troubled coronavirus response becomes more complicated
The UK has reported 138,167 fatalities from Covid-19 since the pandemic started, according to Johns Hopkins University data -- more than any other country in Western Europe.
Other countries and places in Europe and Asia, including China, Taiwan, Vietnam, Thailand and South Korea, implemented strict border controls, social distancing and early lockdowns as soon as cases emerged -- some as early as January 2020 -- to control the pandemic.
The report said there was a degree of "groupthink" between official scientific advisers and the government in which ministers did little to question the advice they received and that meant the UK was "not as open to approaches being taken elsewhere."
This led to a delay in the nationwide lockdown, which was imposed in the UK on March 23, 2020.
"However, even when UK policy had changed to bring in a comprehensive national lockdown, the role of non-pharmaceutical interventions against Covid-19 was complex, inconsistent and opaque for most of the rest of 2020," the report added.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 12, 2021, 11:28:22 pm
These articles always condemn.  Lockdown too early, lockdown not early enough, they cater to their audience.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 11:36:34 pm
Save in this case it’s a cross-party report after hearing evidence. But yes, I agree such reports come down to opinions about what was done by others. It’s newsworthy as it’s a big deal in the UK though maybe it won’t end up making a political impact.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 12, 2021, 11:37:24 pm
Mav, I am just commenting on the neo nazi fascist tag that gets used to describe anti vaxxers as a throw away line and how extreme and ignorant it is. I think someone else said same, maybe Thry and just wanted to point out that is a incorrect description and that we need to be careful how we label people.

Lots of the demonstrators/rioters are neo-nazi, alt right, and/or fascists EB.  It's a strange mix of the extreme opposite sides of the political spectrum with anarchists, and far left extremists rubbing shoulders with folk who just want to be left alone.  The problem is that the extremists are using the unhappy few to push their agendas.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2021, 11:48:36 pm
That’s supported by articles such as this one from news.com.au (not a known left-wing site, to put it mildly):
Far-right extremists hijacked tradie Covid anger to fuel chaos and groom new recruits, expert claims (https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/farright-extremists-hijacked-tradie-covid-anger-to-fuel-chaos-and-groom-new-recruits-expert-claims/news-story/fd14c99693cc6a61b32d6bc30acbfee9).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 13, 2021, 12:15:04 am
That’s supported by articles such as this one from news.com.au (not a known left-wing site, to put it mildly):
Far-right extremists hijacked tradie Covid anger to fuel chaos and groom new recruits, expert claims (https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/farright-extremists-hijacked-tradie-covid-anger-to-fuel-chaos-and-groom-new-recruits-expert-claims/news-story/fd14c99693cc6a61b32d6bc30acbfee9).
It says far right nationalists and anti vaxxers have come together over Covid and capitilized over Covid uncertainty.
This is my point....Being Anti vax doesn't mean connections to far right nut jobs, that article makes that association and this is how anti vax, vax hesitant people are being viewed and are being grouped in with these professional anti government types..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2021, 12:49:48 am
I don't read it that way, but I can see why you do. That's what I was suggesting with the strange bedfellows comment earlier. There are essentially different groups coming together in common cause against those in charge. I'd imagine the neo-Nazis would be happy to beat the crap out of the Nimbin type anti-vaxxers at any other time who in turn would loath the neo-Nazis. Each group would be hoping to take advantage of the protests (and indeed the other groups) for their own purposes. And then you have a bloke like Craig Kelly hoping to gain the support of all the different groups that are part of the wider campaign. Very messy but very concerning that the far right might be able to use this as a recruiting tool. And it's those who aren't part of any group who are the ones who are seen as forming the potential pool of recruits. It's just politics.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on October 13, 2021, 02:43:11 am
The depressing news is that Craig Kelly's new political party, completely lacking any policies and with him mouthing off against the democratic process with meaningless slogans, has recruited 64,000 members. 

Words fail me.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 13, 2021, 08:03:54 am
The family I know who got covid are not allowed to get vaccinated for 6 months.
I heard that a recovery from a COVID infection gives about 6 months of immunity to the specific infection strain, but that type of immunity is not as broad acting or as long lasting as the vaccines. Just this week I also listened to a podcast from Europe that recommends people who have had COVID should get a booster shot of vaccine within 12 weeks and they might be as protected as people who have had two vaccine shots. I think one of those Dr Campbell videos SPF linked also stated something similar.

There is a difference though between a real COVID infection and a COVID vaccine, the real infection apparently supresses the immune system of the patient and the vaccine doesn't. But I don't know what that means for getting the vaccine.

Could this be related to some other medicine they have been given?

Now Europe and the USA are also talking about potentially doing cross vaccination for the booster shots, the evidence is getting stronger this is producing the best immunity. But there are still concerns about potential side effects if you do this for a lots and lots of people, so they are talking cross vaccination for vulnerable people only at this stage.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 13, 2021, 08:48:44 am
I know 3 people in the UK who've had triple jabs (all Pfizer) and all good.  But things can change with the China virus
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 13, 2021, 09:33:56 am
Boosters in the USA are as LP said for older folk ie 65 plus and those with serious ongoing health conditions.Lack of safety data being the concern..
I think people should be blood tested to work out their immunity levels before receiving boosters.. Dr Campbell raised some interesting points on those videos.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 13, 2021, 09:44:06 am
Setup my phone for this vax certificate, easy to do and you hit the icon next to the check in bar and go across to certificates and you get a nice tick in a green box with your details displayed giving you permission to resume a normal life...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2021, 10:48:53 am
I have a Samsung that won’t download the requisite iteration of Android. Such is life ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 13, 2021, 11:46:21 am
I heard that a recovery from a COVID infection gives about 6 months of immunity to the specific infection strain, but that type of immunity is not as broad acting or as long lasting as the vaccines. Just this week I also listened to a podcast from Europe that recommends people who have had COVID should get a booster shot of vaccine within 12 weeks and they might be as protected as people who have had two vaccine shots. I think one of those Dr Campbell videos SPF linked also stated something similar.

There is a difference though between a real COVID infection and a COVID vaccine, the real infection apparently supresses the immune system of the patient and the vaccine doesn't. But I don't know what that means for getting the vaccine.

Could this be related to some other medicine they have been given?

Now Europe and the USA are also talking about potentially doing cross vaccination for the booster shots, the evidence is getting stronger this is producing the best immunity. But there are still concerns about potential side effects if you do this for a lots and lots of people, so they are talking cross vaccination for vulnerable people only at this stage.

At our work IPAC are not okaying vaccinating if you were infected within 6 months.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 13, 2021, 11:46:45 am
Seperately, this is why i say empathising and education is key. 

https://www.theage.com.au/national/is-there-any-point-in-arguing-with-people-20211012-p58z7v.html

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2021, 12:05:34 pm
I’m not sure the article supports your argument. It points out that there’s a backlash effect which means that presenting contrary facts can have the perverse effect of strengthening beliefs. The expert quoted says:

Quote
The evidence does not suggest that humans are unable to argue sensibly. Rather, it is a small group of people – the most entrenched – who are least likely to be convinced by a good argument.

The obvious solution to that, says Dr Grant, is to simply ignore them.

“If it’s a democratic vote, what do we need to get to? 50 per cent plus one. There are a whole bunch of issues in society where you don’t need to convince everyone .... even on vaccines.”

That’s the idea behind the vaccine mandate, a policy enacted by democratic governments around the world.

 Now, if you’re saying that there are vaccine hesitants who might be persuaded by facts, then I agree we should attempt to understand their concerns and educate them. But as we’ve discussed before, it’s hard to say how this could be achieved in the current social media environment.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 13, 2021, 12:08:27 pm
I’m not sure the article supports your argument. It points out that there’s a backlash effect which means that presenting contrary facts can have the perverse effect of strengthening beliefs. The expert quoted says:

That’s the idea behind the vaccine mandate, a policy enacted by democratic governments around the world.

LOL

No, the article doesnt, but your reaction proves its true!!

:D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on October 13, 2021, 12:09:01 pm
Setup my phone for this vax certificate, easy to do and you hit the icon next to the check in bar and go across to certificates and you get a nice tick in a green box with your details displayed giving you permission to resume a normal life...

I've been through the set up process EB but I can't see the icon on the SV app to reference the Vax certificate.  Did this happen immediately in your case or does it take some time?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2021, 12:29:55 pm
I guess we were reading different articles, Thryleon.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2021, 12:38:06 pm
There’s some hope on the social media front: Meet The Medical Experts Debunking COVID Misinformation On TikTok (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/doctors-tiktok-covid-vaccine_l_6164664be4b06a986bd28ddb), HuffPost.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 13, 2021, 12:47:59 pm
I've been through the set up process EB but I can't see the icon on the SV app to reference the Vax certificate.  Did this happen immediately in your case or does it take some time?
Cookie, its the square button/icon with the tick and scribble next to the large check in button that you click to go through to the QR target screen. Took me a while to work out you have to click that to access your vaccination certificates.
This is after of course you have done the linking with the MyGov/Medicare stuff and followed the steps..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 13, 2021, 01:36:22 pm
There’s some hope on the social media front: Meet The Medical Experts Debunking COVID Misinformation On TikTok (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/doctors-tiktok-covid-vaccine_l_6164664be4b06a986bd28ddb), HuffPost.

Can say I saw a brilliant one shared on facebook where someone was saying all the typical anit vaccine statements, and they had a scientest overlay responding and correcting.

Was brilliant, but I cant find a way to share on here. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 13, 2021, 01:50:42 pm
Can say I saw a brilliant one shared on facebook where someone was saying all the typical anit vaccine statements, and they had a scientest overlay responding and correcting.

Was brilliant, but I cant find a way to share on here.
Was it a young US doctor? I can't think of her name but there is a young US doctor who has published a whole swath of myth debunking TikTok videos targeted at adolescents to stop them being impacted by activist fear mongering. I don't have TikTok but I've seen one or two examples presented in mainstream media.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on October 13, 2021, 01:55:27 pm
Cookie, its the square button/icon with the tick and scribble next to the large check in button that you click to go through to the QR target screen. Took me a while to work out you have to click that to access your vaccination certificates.
This is after of course you have done the linking with the MyGov/Medicare stuff and followed the steps..

Thanks EB. I dont yet have that button.  Mine is a button to view check in history.  Maybe it takes a while for the link to become active?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 13, 2021, 02:01:37 pm
Thanks EB. I dont yet have that button.  Mine is a button to view check in history.  Maybe it takes a while for the link to become active?
Should appear as soon as the App updates, maybe your App isn't updating?

I suppose it could be carrier related, they can and do block some Apps and updates at various times to control bandwidth.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on October 13, 2021, 02:36:43 pm
Should appear as soon as the App updates, maybe your App isn't updating?

I suppose it could be carrier related, they can and do block some Apps and updates at various times to control bandwidth.
Thanks LP
App update shows "Pending ".
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2021, 02:49:14 pm

Northern Territory announces mandatory vaccines for workers and $5000 fines for those who don’t comply (https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/australia/northern-territory-announces-mandatory-vaccines-for-workers-and-5000-fines-for-those-who-dont-comply/news-story/d1f86632da29575488918d55590f814c)
Quote
One Australian jurisdiction has announced one of the strictest vaccine mandates in the world with certain people facing huge fines.

Looks like vaccine mandates cover the whole of Australia and were put in place by both Liberal and Labor Governments.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 13, 2021, 03:03:00 pm

Northern Territory announces mandatory vaccines for workers and $5000 fines for those who don’t comply (https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/australia/northern-territory-announces-mandatory-vaccines-for-workers-and-5000-fines-for-those-who-dont-comply/news-story/d1f86632da29575488918d55590f814c)
Looks like vaccine mandates cover the whole of Australia and were put in place by both Liberal and Labor Governments.
What if you dont have the 5k....jail?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2021, 03:11:42 pm
Same as any other fine, I’d imagine (other than tollway fines which for some reason are dealt with more harshly). Application could be made to convert the fine to community work. I’m not sure the fines are being enforced anyway and I recall a news story a while back that few mask/isolation fines were being paid in Victoria.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 13, 2021, 03:17:45 pm
Same as any other fine, I’d imagine (other than tollway fines which for some reason are dealt with more harshly). Application could be made to convert the fine to community work. I’m not sure the fines are being enforced anyway and I recall a news story a while back that few mask/isolation fines were being paid in Victoria.
Probably wont be allowed to do any work in the community no jab, no work.....maybe making masks rather than number plates in jail or organ donation before those far right loony antivaxxers remains are made into biscuits Soylent green style.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2021, 03:21:08 pm
Not sure there’d be any demand for anti-vaxxer Soylent Green. But if they find a way to kill off the virus during production, it just might work.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2021, 03:29:56 pm
I suspect these big fines are Monopoly money fines. In a year’s time if Covid is safely in the rear view mirror, chances are fines will be withdrawn and fines paid will be refunded. The on-the-spot fines in the thousands of dollars are well above fines courts would impose for more serious offending.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 13, 2021, 04:27:53 pm
I suspect these big fines are Monopoly money fines. In a year’s time if Covid is safely in the rear view mirror, chances are fines will be withdrawn and fines paid will be refunded. The on-the-spot fines in the thousands of dollars are well above fines courts would impose for more serious offending.
I'm not so sure, the piggy banks will be empty but I'm sure they will still be funding bonuses somewhere somehow!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2021, 05:39:35 pm
It would be hard to get done for working in contravention of the covid mandate as employers will be after proof of vaccination. Should workers provide forged vaccination certificates or faked exemptions, the proverbial will hit the fan with more serious charges. Forgery and deception charges would be more problematic than a fine. An employer who allows unvaccinated workers to work when prohibited will be a more tasty target for prosecution that the workers themselves. No doubt the anti-vax movement needs a martyr and someone will put up his or her hand to do the honours.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 13, 2021, 09:16:22 pm
Update from the anti-vax conspiracy theory guy i kicked off site on Monday...

Called him today, and he showed up, with vaccination card in hand. Said he got it that day and was sore for a couple hours and then good as gold.

If we could all turn 1 anti-vaxxer, we'd have this licked in no time!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2021, 09:22:01 pm
It would take more than that in the NT:
Vax rollout 'mugged' in remote parts of NT, (https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/7468293/vax-rollout-mugged-in-remote-parts-of-nt/) Canberra Times.
Quote
Chief Minister Michael Gunner says the rollout has been "mugged" by the campaigners and unvaccinated people could die if the Delta variant makes it to the territory.
"At the end of the day, with all the best information, with all the goodwill, with all the repeated attempts, there are some people, in some communities, who have said 'no' to the jab, and could keep saying 'no'," he told reporters on Wednesday.
"We can't hold people down and stick the needle in their arm. It is their choice, and some are choosing against it."
Data published by the NT government shows vaccine uptake is lagging in 33 of the 51 communities.
The is no data for another 33 where the commonwealth is managing the vaccine rollout, with Mr Gunner saying the NT is "flying blind" in those communities.
Some, like Alpurrurulam in the Barkly region and Ikuntji in Central Australia, have first-dose rates below 15 per cent.
Many others have double-dose rates well below 40 per cent.
Dr Heggie says the situation has become serious as he asked "who is going to take responsibility for the first Aboriginal death (in the NT)".
"I know some of the influencers and they are from the US anti-vax lobby and faith organisations," he said.
"They are using social media, particularly in Aboriginal communities."

Dr Heggie warns that if vaccination rates remain low, the only way to save lives will be further travel restrictions in remote areas.
NT Police Commissioner Jamie Chalker said the virus could reappear in the NT at any time and it was possible unvaccinated Aboriginal Territorians could pay a heavy toll.
"Delta is mobile," he said.
"We are far too vast as a jurisdiction to prevent its entry long term."
Mr Gunner cited Yuendumu, in Central Australia, as an example of a community where the rollout was lagging.
Health workers have visited the community of 700 people six times since the rollout started in the NT, but few residents have had a jab.
Meetings have been held with leaders and elders and vaccine information has been provided in the local language, along with vaccination incentives.
"Despite all of these blitz efforts, despite the fact the vaccine has been sitting in the fridge there for months, just 20 per cent of eligible people in Yuendumu have received their first shot," Mr Gunner said.
"It is just an unfortunate reality that some Territorians, across the whole territory, have been mugged by misinformation."

Overall, 61 per cent of people in remote areas of the territory have had their first vaccine dose, with 46 per cent fully vaccinated.
Across the NT, 78 per cent of people have had their first vaccine dose and 65 per cent are fully vaccinated
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on October 14, 2021, 10:52:34 am
When Delta does get into the communities they will all scramble to get jabbed.
Problem is that NT has actually been too successful in keeping it out, life here has pretty much rolled along unchanged and many will think that they’ll get it (the jab) when they need it, which of course will be too late for some of them…
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 14, 2021, 10:55:34 am
When Delta does get into the communities they will all scramble to get jabbed.
That is the major problem, it spreads so fast it's too late by then!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 14, 2021, 10:58:32 am
How can we tell if vaccine scare-mongering among indigenous and ethnic groups is the result of religious or anti-vax zealots, or a deliberate tactic used by racists and bigots to have a devastating effect on a resident minority?

Are we naïve enough to think some neo-Nazi types might not hide among anti-vax zealots and push to promote those views in say Africa, India or Sth America?

To me this is no different to the rumours that ISIS was trying to weaponize asymptomatic Sars-CoV-2 carriers among Western populations, if you think one is possible the other must also be possible.

If someone is brazen enough to think it's right for some to sit at the back of the bus, or on the roof, do not be surprised to find they care very little about someone falling off! These people do exist, they are not always obvious.

As Hollywood as it sounds, I would not put it past some mining executive, landholder or bureaucrat thinking a dose of COVID might be the best way to deal with an unmoveable obstruction like a resident mob. Of course this is a psychopath or sociopath perspective, but then some careers / jobs attract that type and often reward them!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 14, 2021, 04:29:22 pm
Social media keeps understating the seriousness of COVID, it loops through a series of spurious claims, it's just a cold, my body my choice, vaccines kill, and then it's rinse and repeat.

A specialist I saw today cut through the crap and told me dying from Sars-CoV-2 related disease is like drowning gradually and continuously for several weeks while a master torturer does just enough to keep you from dying, a viral version of waterboarding! Except in this case the torturer is a health professional doing all they can to help you survive, and being distraught knowing full well that if things go bad at some point nothing they can do is going to help!

Most who end up like this walked or were wheel-chaired into hospital, and never saw family or friends again.

Ultimately many people have a stroke or heart attack from the physical duress, even if they are in a COMA so that the mind doesn't know what the body is suffering, it is still physically stressful!

My specialist is a good man, I can tell from his demeanour he is greatly affected by his work volunteering in a COVID ICU, and his great fear is that he can never be sure of the patients level of 'awareness', what if they know exactly what is happening, can feel it all, can see it all, can hear it all, can smell it all, but are paralysed and cannot communicate their awareness!

And some want to let COVID rip so that the lucky can survive!

What about the poor bastards who don't, is that slight risk of falling unwell from being vaccinated worth risking the potential horror described above?

The doctor would rather die peacefully than go through what he described above, so he is pro-choice advocate for euthanasia, but he has no choice for you, he has to try and save you once you hit that ICU bed!

All this grimness isn't just purely a result of the disease, it's also piled on health workers by the dissenters, who often end up in the above circumstance having ignored the warnings. The critics who diminish the health workers efforts and belittle their daily experiences, the critics who flip when confronted by reality!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on October 15, 2021, 12:41:50 am
Today's Daily Telegraph has a front page story detailing the results of its investigation into the circumstances surrounding the limousine driver contracting Covid, which resulted in the NSW "mockdown" and subsequently the ending of our doughnut days and current lockdown.

The story from Gladys and the NSW Government after their brief investigation has always been that the limousine driver had complied with the regulations, was not to blame, and everybody "look over there."

However, the Daily Telegraph has uncovered the fact that for months prior to the driver contracting Covid the NSW Health Dept had been aware that the limousine company which employed the driver had not been complying with Health regulations but did not know how to get the company to comply.

The two Sky News commentators discussing the article believe that talk-back radio in NSW will be inundated with calls today.  I'm sure the same will happen here when the news breaks.

Until now I have never been able to understand why Gladys decided suddenly to resign as state premier and also to leave parliament.  I now believe she knew that this story could not be kept under wraps and provided further impetus for her to get out while the going was good.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 15, 2021, 07:33:53 am
2000 cases oh let's blame Gladys.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2021, 09:01:53 am
Hell no, she’s on her way to sainthood after being a martyr to ICAC, so best avoid that.

Brilliant opinion piece from Michael Gerson in the Washington Post. When you’re reading this, bear in mind he is a neo-conservative and former speechwriter for George Dubya:

Quote
Vaccine resisters sacrificing their jobs are not heroes
“Poor is the nation that has no heroes,” Cicero said. But poorer still is a nation with the kind of heroes celebrated on Fox News.

The nation’s leading purveyor of lethal medical advice during a pandemic (trademark pending) has recently elevated the resisters against coronavirus vaccines — an airline pilot here, a nurse there — as models of citizenship. These abstainers are risking their livelihoods in the cause of … what? Well, that depends on your view of the vaccines themselves.

For generations we’ve had vaccine mandates, particularly for childhood diseases, in every state plus D.C. Few thought to call this tyranny because communities have a duty to maintain public health, and individuals have a duty to reasonably accommodate the common good — even if this means allowing your child to be injected with a substance carrying a minuscule risk of harm.

So there can be no objection rooted in principle to vaccine mandates, unless you want to question them all the way down to measles, mumps and rubella. The problem must be covid-19 in particular.

If the coronavirus vaccines are risky, experimental concoctions with frequent side effects, then government and business mandates are social coercion run amok. We might as well mandate vaping.

But if these vaccines are carefully tested and encourage greater immunity to a deadly disease, with minimal risk of side effects, then the “heroism” of vaccine resisters takes on a different connotation: It means resisters are less courageous and more selfish than your average 6-year-old getting a second MMR dose. Perhaps vaccine mandates should be modified to include lollipops for whingeing malcontents.

So which view is correct? If only there were empirical means, some scientific method, to test the matter. If only there had been three phases of clinical trials, involving tens of thousands of volunteers, demonstrating the drugs to be safe and effective. If only the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Food and Drug Administration were constantly monitoring safety concerns about the vaccines. If only we could estimate the number of covid deaths that might have been prevented if vaccine uptake were higher.

To break the suspense — we do live in such a world. “From June through September 2021,” concluded a recent Peterson-KFF report, “approximately 90,000 covid-19 deaths among adults likely would have been prevented with vaccination.” So the matter is simple: Who is making vaccination more likely to take place, and who is not?

In this light, it’s hard to blame the small group of workers who have been misled into believing that liberty is the right to infect your neighbors with a deadly pathogen. The main fault lies with the media outlets that spotlight and elevate such people, and with political figures who seek their political dreams by encouraging lethal ignorance.

In the latter category, the Republican governors Ron DeSantis of Florida and Greg Abbott of Texas are the repellent standouts. If the coronavirus could vote, these men would be governors for life. Most recently, Abbott issued an executive order saying “no entity” could impose vaccine mandates in his state. So far, many Texas business entities have treated his order with contempt, preferring to comply with President Biden’s vaccinate-or-test mandate.

In my political youth, conservatives praised state governments as “laboratories of innovation.” Now they’re graveyards of sanity and public spirit. And the actual graveyards provide evidence.

The effectiveness of vaccine mandates is demonstrated by current practice. The United States has generally high rates of coverage for childhood vaccinations. But in states that make it easy to gain an exemption — for religious or sometimes “philosophical” reasons — the rates of coverage decline. And we’ve seen outbreaks of preventable diseases such as measles as a result.

For my part, I’m not even sure what a “religious” exemption means in the case of covid. I understand that a few religious traditions object to receiving medical care entirely. But I don’t think this is the main excuse for evangelicals seeking exemptions from covid vaccinations. What type or tradition of religion asserts the right to avoid minor risks and inconveniences in service to our neighbors? The Church of Perpetual Selfishness? The coven of Ayn Rand? Do Christians really want to be identified as people who permit breast augmentation but frown on vaccination? Getting vaccinated is not only good public health; it is also a small but important act of generosity.

Abbott and his ilk are seeking a morally desolate world in which people demand their autonomy even if it kills their neighbor. But there is a better world in which institutions have duties to the health and safety of citizens, and citizens have obligations to the health and happiness of one another. That is not only a better place to live — it is a place where more of us would remain alive.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 15, 2021, 10:00:01 am
Yes it goes to the heart of the problem, many dissenters actually see themselves as the messiahs, believing they can see something the rest of the poor general public cannot. In effect they are duping themselves with a mirage but also hurting the innocent as collateral in the process!

But that is not Abbott. The psychopaths in media and society also see something, and this may include someone like Abbott who cannot be an idiot, they see an opportunity to manipulate the minority for profit and power, telling the dissenters what they want to hear to enlisting support. Abbott is no different to Alan Jones, Andrew Bolt, Rita Panahi, Peta Credlin or Rupert Murdoch, it is just that Abbott 'profits' in a different way via the same mechanism!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 15, 2021, 10:05:25 am
Many people not taking the vaccine have a profound mistrust for the motivation to do so and the medical professionals telling us to.

There is a saying, you reap what you sow.

I've been to plenty of GP doctors who provide the service of see you, give certificate then dismiss you and on next visit talk to you like they've never seen you before.

Ive finally found one over the last 10 years that recognised me and discussed my last visit with me and then spotted what I was there to see her about before I told her what was happening and am hanging onto this GP as they are rare.

You might simply be seeing disenfranchised people turn to alt medicine because they aren't getting the care they think they should be from medical professionals.

The thing is both sides are wrong in that equation.  People expect a lot from medical professionals but they can't know everything about everyone.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 15, 2021, 10:36:25 am
Many people not taking the vaccine have a profound mistrust for the motivation to do so and the medical professionals telling us to.

There is a saying, you reap what you sow.

I've been to plenty of GP doctors who provide the service of see you, give certificate then dismiss you and on next visit talk to you like they've never seen you before.

Ive finally found one over the last 10 years that recognised me and discussed my last visit with me and then spotted what I was there to see her about before I told her what was happening and am hanging onto this GP as they are rare.

You might simply be seeing disenfranchised people turn to alt medicine because they aren't getting the care they think they should be from medical professionals.

The thing is both sides are wrong in that equation.  People expect a lot from medical professionals but they can't know everything about everyone.

One of my pet peeves. But I get the economics of the health care system. Takes an exceptional GP to not be 're educated' by the sausage meat attitude of many clinic owners... get 'em in, find out what's wrong asap, get 'em out the door, get the loot, then get the next one in. So many docs start with the right attitude, but then the workload becomes horrendous.

Like you, 3 Leos, we've found a GP who doesn't have a stop watch. Down side is you can wait for a while to see him... I always ring beforehand to see how far behind schedule he is... usually about an hour! I've learned to get in early, or straight after lunch! He's a ripper and is now a family friend.

The system needs changing but also we citizens need to become more informed and responsible re our own health/diet/exercise.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 15, 2021, 01:52:15 pm
An interesting spin on all this liberty and freedom of choice debate is where a business stands versus the individual. It may well be true some individual liberties have been violated and cannot be enforced on the individual, but it's not clear at all that business cannot be forced to be compliant, and I suspect this is where it goes next.

If they make the digital certificate process two-factor, where Part-A comes from the individual and Part-B comes from the business, a bit like PKI, then they can track and trace businesses that fail to comply, simply because some clients will have legitimate Apps and certificates. They may not be able to penalise a fraudulent individual, but they can surely make accepting forgeries very expensive or uncomfortable for the a business. Auditors would quickly see a trend appearing in the trading data for any business that was 'sympathetic' to fraudulent clients.

In effect they can make it so onerous on fraudsters or fraudulent businesses that it potentially becomes impossible to deal!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on October 15, 2021, 06:47:54 pm
Hell no, she’s on her way to sainthood after being a martyr to ICAC, so best avoid that.

Brilliant opinion piece from Michael Gerson in the Washington Post. When you’re reading this, bear in mind he is a neo-conservative and former speechwriter for George Dubya:


Brilliant? Facile more likely.

Why is CV19 anything to do with politics?

And herein lies your problem:

Quote
But if these vaccines are carefully tested and encourage greater immunity to a deadly disease, with minimal risk of side effects

That is laughable.

They have not been carefully tested - a blatant lie - studies are still ongoing. I understand some animal studies were skipped and several other tests eg relating to fertility.

They do not encourage greater immunity - even the manufacturer's acknowledge this fact.

And there is not minimal risk of side effects (and no one has any idea about the longer term issues - as we aren't there yet).

Brilliant?

Far from it.




Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 15, 2021, 07:02:25 pm
And there is not minimal risk of side effects (and no one has any idea about the longer term issues - as we aren't there yet).

Brilliant?

Far from it.
This may or may not be correct.

BUT...
We do know of some long term effects from Covid.

There is 2 doors.
You can 'take your chances' with the most likely safe long term effects before door #1 (get vaxed)
or
Go behind door #2 where you know there is something that can give you long term effects or even kill you....and those around you.

For some unknown reason you are choosing door #2.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2021, 07:51:10 pm
Judge dismisses challenges to NSW COVID-19 vaccination orders for workers (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-15/judge-rules-out-challenges-to-nsw-covid-19-vaccination-orders/100543888), abc.net.au.
Quote
Each unvaccinated worker cited similar concerns about insufficient long-term data on COVID-19 vaccine safety and side effects.

The cases used various arguments to attack the validity of the health orders but contained common threads.

They contended that the orders violated rights to bodily integrity and privacy, implemented civil conscription, represented a breach of natural justice and were made by Health Minister Brad Hazzard without clear legislative authority.

He said any consideration about the reasonableness of orders should be undertaken by reference to the objects of the public health act, which were "directed exclusively at public safety".

The judge found that if an order was made interfering with freedom of movement and differentiating on "arbitrary grounds" unrelated to public health risks, such as race or gender, it would be at "severe risk" of being found to be invalid.

"However, the differential treatment of people according to their vaccination status is not arbitrary," Justice Beech-Jones wrote in his judgment.

"Instead, it applies a discrimen, namely vaccination status, that on the evidence and the approach taken by the minister is very much consistent with the objects of the Public Health Act."

The judge further rejected a constitutional argument about civil conscription and an asserted inconsistency with the immunisation register act.

"So far as the right to bodily integrity is concerned, it is not violated as the impugned orders do not authorise the involuntary vaccination of anyone," he said.

"Curtailing the free movement of persons, including their movement to and at work, are the very type of restrictions that the public health act clearly authorises."

The judgment was broadcast over a live stream on YouTube where some 40,000 people watched. Let’s hope the vaccine hesitant now have another reason to stop tilting at windmills and get their jabs like responsible citizens do for the public good.

Of course, the Victorian challenges may be able to find more support in the bill of rights, but the more general notion that vaccine mandates are unfair and unreasonable has taken a major hit.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2021, 08:01:34 pm
I’d just emphasise that this line is relevant to every jurisdiction:

Quote
"So far as the right to bodily integrity is concerned, it is not violated as the impugned orders do not authorise the involuntary vaccination of anyone," he said

I know that opponents of vaccine mandates like to say they force people to take vaccines, but that’s not true. There is still a choice and no force is used. A failure to vaccinate won’t mean the unvaccinated will be shut out of work in their field or from entertainment venues permanently. They can wait for Covid to pass and those restrictions will end, just as lockdown restrictions come and go. Any restriction is temporary.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2021, 08:47:48 pm
Anyone wonder why Ivermectin was being pushed?

Australians still keen to buy Covid-19 drug ivermectin, as misinformation complaints are investigated (https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/australians-still-keen-to-buy-covid19-drug-ivermectin-as-misinformation-complaints-are-investigated/news-story/34a8ed478ee2cfb4ee865127b0cf7fcb), news.com.au.

Quote
According to hacked data provided to The Intercept, a network of health care providers pocketed millions of dollars selling drugs like ivermectin through online consultations.

It found that America’s Frontline Doctors, a right-wing group founded last year to promote pro-Trump doctors during the pandemic, was working with a small network of health care companies to create concern around vaccines, and to push people into investing in unproven treatments.

At least $15 million was reportedly spent by patients on consultations and medications combined, with some people paying exorbitant prices for drugs like ivermectin.

And I thought they were doing it to help people ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on October 15, 2021, 08:55:12 pm
Judge dismisses challenges to NSW COVID-19 vaccination orders for workers (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-15/judge-rules-out-challenges-to-nsw-covid-19-vaccination-orders/100543888), abc.net.au.
The judgment was broadcast over a live stream on YouTube where some 40,000 people watched. Let’s hope the vaccine hesitant now have another reason to stop tilting at windmills and get their jabs like responsible citizens do for the public good.

Of course, the Victorian challenges may be able to find more support in the bill of rights, but the more general notion that vaccine mandates are unfair and unreasonable has taken a major hit.

It will be appealed.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on October 15, 2021, 08:58:35 pm
Anyone wonder why Ivermectin was being pushed?

Australians still keen to buy Covid-19 drug ivermectin, as misinformation complaints are investigated (https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/australians-still-keen-to-buy-covid19-drug-ivermectin-as-misinformation-complaints-are-investigated/news-story/34a8ed478ee2cfb4ee865127b0cf7fcb), news.com.au.

And I thought they were doing it to help people ...

You need to get out more Mav.

It works.

c19ivermectin.com

Funny how these new pills are so wonderful, with a lower efficacy....hmmm.

Wait? They cost 100x as much? That can't be....surely...

Thomas Borody says hi. To your missus too.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on October 15, 2021, 08:59:41 pm
c19ivermectin.com (http://c19ivermectin.com)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2021, 09:00:31 pm
I didn’t realise the drug has its own website. it must work against Covid, then.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2021, 09:27:23 pm
It will be appealed.
When do you think the judgment of the appellate court will be handed down? If it’s well after the start of the vaccine mandate, how many just get vaccinated rather than waiting? Time’s against the anti-vaxxers (as well as 1 Supreme Court Judge).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 16, 2021, 10:30:02 am
Good to see an anti-vaxxer baggage handler with Virgin enjoyed his freedom so much he infected 7 co-workers and sent at least 50 into isolation. Of course, maybe those 57 or more didn’t feel as free as they would have liked.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Micky0 on October 16, 2021, 11:11:43 am
Good to see an anti-vaxxer baggage handler with Virgin enjoyed his freedom so much he infected 7 co-workers and sent at least 50 into isolation. Of course, maybe those 57 or more didn’t feel as free as they would have liked.
Local case in my area - was told he had a dozen mates over, even though he knew he had Covid, didn’t give them the decency of telling them and alas he is in hospital and they all have Covid hoping they don’t end up with their mate.

This is one story of countless. And the stats yesterday were 67% of new infections were under 40.  So the pretend tradie anti vax freedom fighters really didn’t know what they were talking about. Who’d have thought.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 16, 2021, 11:47:36 am
That's shameful.

I hope the authorities don't engage in discrimination with this guy. If he manages to get out of hospital, they should throw him in jail as he's just a criminal. And they shouldn't segregate him even if he doesn't like mainstream.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 16, 2021, 01:07:40 pm
Who would have thunk that Trump would trump a quick fix profit making enterprise that kills 3rd world citizens over a drug that might actually help people. The least racist man in America, ....................... or a hidden agenda!

There are good things that come out of this, the snake oil providers made so much Ivermectin and have so much excess where it was banned that it's getting cheaper and cheaper to worm our horses! ;D

The only trouble is, we've been warned by the veterinarians that a lot of the cheap stuff is ex-black market coming out of dodgy providers and is fake, like magnesium tablets blended with all sorts of fillers, fake seems to be a common trend in that whole Ivermectin supply chain saga! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 16, 2021, 01:21:06 pm
Interesting outcome of Clive Palmer’s move to boost HCQ use. He imported bulk quantities for use against Covid which he wanted to donate to the Federal Government. But he conditioned the donation on a sticker thanking Palmer for providing the HCQ which had to be attached to every box/dose. The Federal Govt instead publicly praised him but this wasn’t enough. Now thousands of doses are about to be destroyed rather than used to address health issues for which they were originally designed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 16, 2021, 01:24:21 pm
Interesting outcome of Clive Palmer’s move to boost HCQ use. He imported bulk quantities for use against Covid which he wanted to donate to the Federal Government. But he conditioned the donation on a sticker thanking Palmer for providing the HCQ which had to be attached to every box/dose. The Federal Govt instead publicly praised him but this wasn’t enough. Now thousands of doses are about to be destroyed rather than used to address health issues for which they were originally designed.
HCQ has some use in co-morbidities, provided diagnosis and treatment of an associated condition is completed early enough, so that is a hell of a waste!

I can see it wouldn't be donated to the 3rd world state as it may be sold off for profit as a COVID preventative / cure which it isn't. But there is evidence in tropical zones that if you get certain secondary bacterial infection or co-infection of something like Dengue or Malaria that some HCQ treatment could be of some use. However, because there are issues of liver and kidney damage it's not something they can just hand out, it has to be done in a suitable supervised environment. HCQ acts on the secondary infections, not Sars-CoV-2.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 16, 2021, 01:28:14 pm
Apparently lupus sufferers pleaded for it to be made available to them (and HCQ is used for rheumatoid arthritis as well). They found it hard to obtain HCQ when it was the forerunner to Ivermectin.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 16, 2021, 01:30:04 pm
Apparently lupus sufferers pleaded for it to be made available to them (and HCQ is used for rheumatoid arthritis as well). They found it hard to obtain HCQ when it was the forerunner to Ivermectin.
Yes thanks for that reminder, I often forget about the deleterious supply chain effects of the fake cure pushers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 16, 2021, 01:36:29 pm
There is something I do not understand about all this pandemic and vaccine stuff going on. COVID now approaches the road toll, while under restrictions it's about as deadly as drink driving, if let run free it will/would become far worse, I'm not sure what toll smoking has, but it is also unequivocally bad.

For both those issues the Feds run stark shock campaigns designed to make people very aware of the real world effects, but for COVID nothing! Yet death from COVID is as an ugly and expensive end as lung cancer or emphysema.

Why not show the public the real world effects, we've been doing it for other causes for years? :o

I worry that the reason we don't is because many in the political system are sceptics, it is a bit like climate change!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mantis on October 16, 2021, 07:38:05 pm
LP. I am sure we have had advertisements on the television regarding sick people in hospital beds looking like they are near death. One of a big strong gentleman laying on his belly warning people of how dangerous covid is or can be. As for real world causes I cannot comment. They don’t state the cost to society that I have noticed. It would be interesting to see how much the profits have increased with the manufacturers of the vaccines. I wonder if the government benefits from these profits. Just asking the question. Not speculating anything with my comments. Strange to see government employees and MP’s being some of the last to have work mandates considered to keep them working away from home. If legal action was ever taken against the government for such mandates is that not a conflict of interest or to the government benefit? Just asking a question again. No speculation here.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 16, 2021, 09:11:47 pm
@LP.

There is a level of this stuff not worth doing i think.

At some point, we just have to say let it rip vaccine or no vaccine.

The hospitals are yet to really feel the pressure so let's make it happen.  The rest of the hesitant will get their answer.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on October 16, 2021, 09:54:15 pm
Over the past weeks I have been made aware by friends of the frightening situation facing patients and staff in our public hospitals emergency departments, and the near certainty that the position will worsen shortly.

In this situation, would it be feasible for the state government to select a date - say 30 November - and advise the public that any unvaccinated person presenting at hospital with covid (with the exception of people with the appropriate medical exemption) after that date would be billed a proportion of their hospital treatment costs because of the unnecessary strain they would be placing upon the already strained health system?

Any measure that has an impact on peoples' hip pockets seems to capture their attention, and I refer to the threat in recent years to cut funds to unvaccinated children at day care, and the last few weeks with mandated vaccination for essential work.  In both instances vaccination rates improved.









Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 17, 2021, 01:29:45 pm
State governments can't do that AFAIK, Macca. There was a rumour running in anti-vaxxer circles that the Victorian Government would refuse hospital access to unvaccinated patients but it was soon pointed out that the State Governments had no role in this as the agreements b/w State and Federal Governments require hospitals to take medicare patients. AFAIK, the same agreement would stop State Governments requiring a co-payment.

Of course, the Federal Government could impose co-payments, but that's not going to happen. Slomo wants to get the States to do the dirty work and he's not going to wade into controversy. Federal Labor wouldn't be impressed either as they fought to prevent the Liberals imposing a co-payment as Labor feared that would enable the Liberals to gut the medicare system over time.

I would have thought there should have been a quota system which protected beds needed by other departments such as cancer and cardio wards. Then the triage policy could have been adjusted to prioritise the vaccinated when covid patients exceeded the number of beds available for them. But fairness would require such policy changes to be publicised beforehand to allow the unvaccinated to become vaccinated. It's too late to do that now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 17, 2021, 02:00:23 pm
@LP.

There is a level of this stuff not worth doing i think.

At some point, we just have to say let it rip vaccine or no vaccine.

The hospitals are yet to really feel the pressure so let's make it happen.  The rest of the hesitant will get their answer.

...and in the meantime, those who are vaccinated and have other medical emergencies will be the ones suffering because they won't be seen and/or attended to efficiently enough as a result.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 17, 2021, 03:42:36 pm
...and in the meantime, those who are vaccinated and have other medical emergencies will be the ones suffering because they won't be seen and/or attended to efficiently enough as a result.


Been a lot of over anxious vaccine patients too with side effect issues that are usually anxiety driven rather than real.
Chest pains means you are top of the to be seen list and that means ECG's ,blood tests plus demanding of a bed and more heavy monitoring and this is partly what is clogging up ER's. Better hope when lockdowns are lifted in Melbourne we dont get more road accidents because its really going to hit the fan in terms of resources being stretched...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 17, 2021, 04:42:01 pm
Better hope when lockdowns are lifted in Melbourne we dont get more road accidents ...
I've been lucky not to have stopped working from the office, but I can tell you the roads have become frightening than ever!

Firstly, norbits who now have all the empty freeway space are driving like lunatics on ice. Secondly, those who are now driving far less seem to have lost all the skills while thinking they are still Juan Fangio. Wait till the jams return and patience runs out, it'll be chaos!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 17, 2021, 05:06:23 pm
Agreed. Roads have been scary during lockdown. Moron drivers behave worse with less traffic and then mix that with people who don't know how to drive who were probably catching public transport before.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 17, 2021, 07:59:32 pm
...and in the meantime, those who are vaccinated and have other medical emergencies will be the ones suffering because they won't be seen and/or attended to efficiently enough as a result.



We can't hide in our homes forever kruddler.

We've had government mandates, everyone has had their chance to get vaccinated we need to start returning to as normal as possible.

Our lockdowns are going to be less effective anyway as we proceed with freedoms for the vaccinated and the unvaccinated are going to continue to remain so until they change their mind or the mandate is lifted.


When the hospitals feel some pressure we can adjust again but thus far, I see a lot of extremely tired people in health care who are as exhausted from the protection measures and lack of social life as they are from the pandemic.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 17, 2021, 08:08:01 pm
Over the past weeks I have been made aware by friends of the frightening situation facing patients and staff in our public hospitals emergency departments, and the near certainty that the position will worsen shortly.

In this situation, would it be feasible for the state government to select a date - say 30 November - and advise the public that any unvaccinated person presenting at hospital with covid (with the exception of people with the appropriate medical exemption) after that date would be billed a proportion of their hospital treatment costs because of the unnecessary strain they would be placing upon the already strained health system?

Any measure that has an impact on peoples' hip pockets seems to capture their attention, and I refer to the threat in recent years to cut funds to unvaccinated children at day care, and the last few weeks with mandated vaccination for essential work.  In both instances vaccination rates improved.












You would be hard pressed to make a tax payer foot the bill for health care their taxes are supposed to cover.

It will get worse, but there are measures in place that haven't been required at this stage and im pretty sure where I work a 700 (there are more but they've closed beds for donning and doffing ppe) bed hospital with less than 100 covid patients means there's a bit of room to move.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 17, 2021, 08:29:49 pm
Also, we are all going to catch covid.  Considering the bulk of us have vaccinated recently you're better off catching it within the next few months. 

I'll remind you at this point that I'm a hospital worker who got double jabbed by July.  Id rather catch covid now than in April next year.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 17, 2021, 08:58:56 pm
We can't hide in our homes forever kruddler.

We've had government mandates, everyone has had their chance to get vaccinated we need to start returning to as normal as possible.

Our lockdowns are going to be less effective anyway as we proceed with freedoms for the vaccinated and the unvaccinated are going to continue to remain so until they change their mind or the mandate is lifted.


When the hospitals feel some pressure we can adjust again but thus far, I see a lot of extremely tired people in health care who are as exhausted from the protection measures and lack of social life as they are from the pandemic.


I'm just pointing out that letting everyone 'be free' is not the end of the argument and there are consequences to that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 17, 2021, 09:47:03 pm
I'm just pointing out that letting everyone 'be free' is not the end of the argument and there are consequences to that.
While I'm optimistic, I suspect a lot of people are going to be shocked by how limited this "new free" might potentially become in the weeks and months ahead.

Mostly, this desire to cut loose is a prayer we hear being spoken for winding the clock back, not a commentary about the reality of the future, the idea this free is free like before is potentially quite far from the truth.

I think this because at this stage the science seems to indicate natural immunity is rather poor and short lived, Sars-CoV-2 has a trick of suppressing the immune system which is why vaccines are still a far better solution than getting a Sars-CoV-2 infection. But it looks like neither, getting a vaccination or surviving an infection, is a permanent solution.

Let's hope the bean counters don't slash funding like they did back in 2003 when Sars waned, but this is also a prayer and I'm not fully confident humanity won't repeat it's same mistakes!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on October 17, 2021, 10:28:41 pm

You would be hard pressed to make a tax payer foot the bill for health care their taxes are supposed to cover.

It will get worse, but there are measures in place that haven't been required at this stage and im pretty sure where I work a 700 (there are more but they've closed beds for donning and doffing ppe) bed hospital with less than 100 covid patients means there's a bit of room to move.

Thry, I understand the point of your first sentence.

What annoys me is the fact that the Federal Government has spent taxpayer dollars allocated for health on vaccines to protect every eligible person,  and yet those who refuse to have the vaccine, for whatever reason, unnecessarily overload the health system when they contract covid.

When this happens people with other medical conditions are denied their rights to health care which they have also paid for with their taxes.

i know four people who have had elective surgery cancelled as a direct result of covid overloading of the health system.




Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 18, 2021, 12:00:23 am
Thry, I understand the point of your first sentence.

What annoys me is the fact that the Federal Government has spent taxpayer dollars allocated for health on vaccines to protect every eligible person,  and yet those who refuse to have the vaccine, for whatever reason, unnecessarily overload the health system when they contract covid.

When this happens people with other medical conditions are denied their rights to health care which they have also paid for with their taxes.

i know four people who have had elective surgery cancelled as a direct result of covid overloading of the health system.





Couple of Stroke patients I know got moved due to CoVid overload in a inner Melb hospital, everyone knows cases will increase with opening up and loosening of restrictions , you just have to hope infected patients on the whole only have mild systems and dont present at Hospital.
I'm with Dr Norman Swann and reckon accepting International travelers is crazy and just looking for a new strain to jump into the country. Rather we just open state borders and see how we go and leave the overseas travel to other countries and see how they go first so we can learn from their mistakes or if successful follow their strategies.
Some of my sons dumb inlaws want to jump on cruise ships again because packages are cheap but I'd sink any cruise ship entering our waters unless those companies can prove they are on top of controlling infection and checking passengers properly.
Too many moving parts in terms of transient crews, stop overs, transient passengers getting on and off at different locations etc etc.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 18, 2021, 10:35:29 am
Look guys, its a pandemic.

Thus far we have dodged a lot of covid patients going to hospital at all and the "strain" on the health system is being over stated purely based on a few anecdotals.  The number of covid patients we have in our hospitals at all at the moment is the thing to look for, and look how NSW is tracking with their covid journey.  We are only at worst a few weeks behind them in both vaccinations, and although our numbers look a bit ordinary, the facts are as follows:

We have a grand total of 777 current cases admitted.  The relaxing of restrictions with current vaccine coverage is unlikely to lead to a sharp increase in hospitalisation.

There are 151 ICU, 94 on ventilators.

In NSW, they currently have 606 in hospital, 132 in ICU, and 71 on ventilators and there last few weeks have seen falling case numbers at really strong rates, which indicates that the vaccinations do stop the spread.

Yes, the pandemic is going to continue. 
Yes the worst of it is ahead of us. 
No, opening up is not going to lead to thousands of covid patients clogging hospitals (reference NSW).
No, we are not going to get to 0, and
Yes we are going to see hospitals under some level of strain but the hospitals at the moment, aren't even close to straining.

Normality needs to resume.  Its simple stuff.  We are 13 days away from 80% double vaxed, and 4 days away from 90% single vaxed.  By the start of December, we are going to see 90% of our population in victoria double vaxed.

As we have seen from history, it would take months to infect the remaining people in large numbers who aren't getting vaccinated and only a small percentage of those remaining actually go to hospital.  The majority of people holding out beyond this time, are more likely to go get vaccinated out of fear of opening up, than they would if we stay with significant restrictions which feeds their anti Dan, anti Vax agenda, covid is fake and this is all about control agenda, rather than makes them see that all of this was done for their own well being.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 18, 2021, 11:45:19 am
I wonder if the various apps will prevent anti-vaxers booking their "escape" to Bali.

I have to expect they'll try, and if they do and end up infected, who foots the repatriation bill?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 18, 2021, 12:50:45 pm
In NSW, they currently have 606 in hospital, 132 in ICU, and 71 on ventilators and there last few weeks have seen falling case numbers at really strong rates, which indicates that the vaccinations do stop the spread.
You'd think that this is the rational conclusion to draw, but conspiracy theories are like the Black Knight: it doesn't matter how many fatal cuts they suffer, they never die. The success of the vaccination program will be used against it: "They said it would kill a lot of people but it didn't, so we know Covid was a hoax". And anti-vaxxers will try to credit Ivermectin, Vitamin C and sunlight for the better-than-expected hospitalisation data. It really doesn't matter if you lose the war as long as you get to rewrite history to say you won.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 18, 2021, 01:35:48 pm
You'd think that this is the rational conclusion to draw, but conspiracy theories are like the Black Knight: it doesn't matter how many fatal cuts they suffer, they never die. The success of the vaccination program will be used against it: "They said it would kill a lot of people but it didn't, so we know Covid was a hoax". And anti-vaxxers will try to credit Ivermectin, Vitamin C and sunlight for the better-than-expected hospitalisation data. It really doesn't matter if you lose the war as long as you get to rewrite history to say you won.
The other more modern day problem is that there is an opportunity to profit.

There are already anti-vaxers posing questions about the hypothetical burden of responsibility if they are refused entry to a venue, or even if they are admitted to a venue and catch COVID off the venue staff! I'm assuming they are preparing for litigation so they can orchestrate the circumstance.

There are some truly horrid humans in the world!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on October 18, 2021, 07:26:48 pm
Dr. Omar Khorshid discusses: The reality in public hospitals in Australia right now, opening up, and vaccinations.

https://www.ama.com.au/media/dr-omar-khorshid-hospitals-and-opening-vaccinating-children-under-12-over-60s-and-mandatory
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on October 18, 2021, 07:34:24 pm
I was not aware of this:

Petition EN3313 - Freedom of Vaccine Choice in Australia

https://www.aph.gov.au/e-petitions/petition/EN3313
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 18, 2021, 07:43:40 pm
Dr. Omar Khorshid discusses: The reality in public hospitals in Australia right now, opening up, and vaccinations.

https://www.ama.com.au/media/dr-omar-khorshid-hospitals-and-opening-vaccinating-children-under-12-over-60s-and-mandatory
I drove past a major suburban hospital today and there was a queue of Ambulance 10 or 12 units deep just in the entrance driveway, I've never seen that before and I've been driving past this hospital for 20 years!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 18, 2021, 07:44:59 pm
I was not aware of this:

Petition EN3313 - Freedom of Vaccine Choice in Australia

https://www.aph.gov.au/e-petitions/petition/EN3313
Is this the petition started by pensioners who wanted to overturn the Pfizer age cut off?

Not sure if it's been co-opted now for other nefarious reasons.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 18, 2021, 11:29:40 pm
I was not aware of this:

Petition EN3313 - Freedom of Vaccine Choice in Australia

https://www.aph.gov.au/e-petitions/petition/EN3313

For a start, it's not true that "businesses and state borders [are] unconstitutionally close (sic) to unvaccinated Australians".  Several court cases have shown that the various State health orders are constitutional.  More to the point, if folk want to start a petition, it would be an idea to have a fact check and a proof read first. 

In Victoria, anyone aged 12 years and over can receive the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.  Anyone aged 18 years and over can receive the AstraZeneca vaccine.  So, apart from spreading misinformation about "constitutional rights", what's the petition trying to achieve?

Interestingly, it's apparent that the side effects from the Pfizer vaccine are worse and more common than those from the AstraZeneca vaccine.  The AstraZeneca vaccine also seems to be more effective and recipients probably won't need a booster.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 19, 2021, 07:34:58 am
Pfizer has more side effects but it hasn't killed anyone in Australia yet. I think NZ has had one death.

We don't record which vaccine covid patients who have been jabbed have had but overseas they have and pfizer clearly has fared better.

Astra does last longer but will probably need a booster anyway. Sutton last week said the info he has received is that the boosters further strengthen your protection to the virus by 10 times and he couldn't say it would last a life time but it looks like it would last years. Bring on the boosters!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 19, 2021, 07:44:28 am
Colin Powell has died from a breakthrough infection. His death is noteworthy of itself but right-wingers in the US are trying to use it as proof vaccinations don’t work. But at 84 years of age and suffering from multiple myeloma, he was dependent on the kindness of strangers,

What Colin Powell’s Death Really Means About the Vaccines (https://slate.com/technology/2021/10/colin-powell-vaccine-breakthrough-infection-concern.html), Slate.

Quote
A crucial fact about Powell being left out of many headlines: He had been previously diagnosed with multiple myeloma. Multiple myeloma is a blood cancer that devastates the immune system—in particular, the blood’s plasma cells that produce antibodies. Only 50 percent of blood cancer patients produce antibodies in response to vaccination, and even after a booster, 33 percent still fail to produce antibodies.A crucial fact about Powell being left out of many headlines: He had been previously diagnosed with multiple myeloma. Multiple myeloma is a blood cancer that devastates the immune system—in particular, the blood’s plasma cells that produce antibodies. Only 50 percent of blood cancer patients produce antibodies in response to vaccination, and even after a booster, 33 percent still fail to produce antibodies.
...
”Multiple myeloma is not curable, so while he may (or may not) have been on active treatment, his disease, and his age, made him more vulnerable to breakthrough infection, complications, and death,” said Dr. Gwen Nichols
...
Widespread vaccination, all else being equal, lowers community spread among both the vaccinated and the unvaccinated. Less spread means someone vulnerable, like Powell, would be less likely to become infected in the first place—regardless of the vaccination status of his close contacts. When combined with added precautions such as masks in crowded public spaces, vaccination remains one of the best tools we have. Powell’s death is a reminder that vaccination is an individual choice with community ramifications. Although many people with risk factors may look healthy and live healthy lives, they depend on people with stronger immune systems to protect them.

Hear, hear.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 19, 2021, 09:17:41 am
For a start, it's not true that "businesses and state borders [are] unconstitutionally close (sic) to unvaccinated Australians".  Several court cases have shown that the various State health orders are constitutional.  More to the point, if folk want to start a petition, it would be an idea to have a fact check and a proof read first. 

In Victoria, anyone aged 12 years and over can receive the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.  Anyone aged 18 years and over can receive the AstraZeneca vaccine.  So, apart from spreading misinformation about "constitutional rights", what's the petition trying to achieve?

Interestingly, it's apparent that the side effects from the Pfizer vaccine are worse and more common than those from the AstraZeneca vaccine.  The AstraZeneca vaccine also seems to be more effective and recipients probably won't need a booster.

This rings true to moi, David.

Mrs Baggers had the Pfizer double dose and I had the AstraZeneca double dose. Although neither of us experienced bad reactions/side effects aside from the understandable immune response, Mrs Baggers definitely experienced more discomfort and for longer. Interestingly, my sister (a year younger than me) also had the AstraZeneca and her husband the Pfizer. Similar results with those guys. My brother-in-law experienced discomfort for a few days, my sister the next day only. None of us has has a chronic illness though my sister has had pneumonia 3 times and mild asthma.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 19, 2021, 09:49:38 am
Astra will be dead in the water in Australia in 2022. I'd be expecting a big uptake on Novavax for boosters if it gets here.
Pfizer has been the main vaccine causing side effect issues in hospital ERs from my info.
Lot of chest pains and it's across the age groups. One inner Melb hospital was clogged with side effect patients and was on bypass.
Its the second jab causing the problems too..
The USA are only allowing boosters for over 65s and the real vulnerable. Be interesting to see any data on whether mixing your vaccines is safer than having say three shots(including booster) of the same type.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 19, 2021, 10:05:27 am
The things you DON'T hear @ElwoodBlues1 .... think I'll be getting a jab today thanks to a (unrelated) hospital visit last night.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 19, 2021, 01:25:00 pm
wtf is wrong with Djokovic?

One minute he is all chest thumping and bravado regarding being staunchly anti-vax and spreading bizarre COVID conspiracies, then the next minute he's all demure and reserved while refusing to answer a question about if he has had a vaccination?

Maybe they should ask him if he has any testicles?

Mr Joker grow some balls. Either stick with your conviction or admit you've flipped, because sitting on the fence just highlights that you live a life of privileged double standards and utter elite hypocrisy.

( I suspect the media have inside word that he has flipped, which would be a massive about face, and potentially costly to him given some related sponsorship deals from certain wellness providers. Who'd have thunk cash earnings, commissions and dividends defeat empathy and morality! )
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 19, 2021, 11:35:54 pm
It looks like Professor Borody has a financial interest in the ivermectin treatment he has been pushing ... Say it ain't so, Joe!:

Doctor who advocated Covid-19 therapy including ivermectin applied for patent on same unproven treatment (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/oct/18/doctor-who-advocated-covid-19-therapy-including-ivermectin-applied-for-patent-on-same-unproven-treatment), The Guardian.

Not only had he applied for a patent (which he rarely disclosed when lobbying governments or giving interviews) but he also was busy prescribing ivermectin before the TGA shut down that business opportunity.

Don't the Ivermectin crowd argue that we shouldn't trust vaccines because Big Pharma is out to make money from it? I guess if that's your line, it's not great when the doctors pushing ivermectin are doing the same.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 20, 2021, 11:48:58 am
There is more than one reason to follow what the British Government are doing.

The American system is fully privatised.  Whenever my friends sent me videos about the alternative to our governments approach using any data out of the USA I automatically dismissed them stating to find me an Australian source, because how can you have faith in a fully privatised health care network, that is ultimately a money maker? 

That's not to say that the people in it, are not acting in their clients best health interests, nor does it mean that they are only in it to make money, but in that equation they are serving two masters, and one of them is about profits.  Profits and best interests rarely go hand in hand.  What it does mean, if you are affluent, you are likely to find a treatment that will work for you than someone who has less money.  When those resources are stressed by a pandemic, they have a financial interest to look after as well as wellness, which means any group of doctors going against the COVID grain from the USA need to be viewed with a level of healthy skepticism. 

I am comfortable following the British model, and when you have stuff all information coming from Europe about Ivermectin, its a concrete tell that someone is out there to make some cash.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 20, 2021, 12:12:04 pm
Interesting political connections between right-wing dark money and ivermectin activists in the US. Over there, the GOP is becoming the anti-vaxxer party as part of its campaign to unite everyone with a grievance about anything. Here, both Labor & the Liberals are pro-vax with the far right trying to pander to anti-vaxxers (e.g. Craig Kelly). 

The conservative group using the courts to push ivermectin on COVID patients (https://www.salon.com/2021/10/16/the-conservative-group-using-the-courts-to-push-ivermectin-on-patients/), Salon.

There's also an interesting connection between wellness influencers and the far right:
The dark side of wellness: the overlap between spiritual thinking and far-right conspiracies (https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/oct/17/eva-wiseman-conspirituality-the-dark-side-of-wellness-how-it-all-got-so-toxic), The Guardian.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 20, 2021, 12:23:59 pm
The conservative group using the courts to push ivermectin on COVID patients (https://www.salon.com/2021/10/16/the-conservative-group-using-the-courts-to-push-ivermectin-on-patients/), Salon.

There's also an interesting connection between wellness influencers and the far right:
The dark side of wellness: the overlap between spiritual thinking and far-right conspiracies (https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/oct/17/eva-wiseman-conspirituality-the-dark-side-of-wellness-how-it-all-got-so-toxic), The Guardian.
Personally, I think the government or corporate conspiracy side is way overstated, if any conspiracy exists it's the conspiracy to use advertised conspiracies as a smokescreen for charlatan types practises purely targeted at income over welfare.

It's about time the mainstream media started calling it out for what it is rather than offering a lot of it up as alternative opinions!

For me mainstream media and social media are equally culpable, and all for profit, so it's about time society stripped a few of them of their wealth, it's the only thing they care about!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 20, 2021, 02:14:05 pm
It's not about conspiracies, it's about politics. As I noted, in the US the right wing can take power by mobilising those with grievances as they'd be motivated to vote: that's crucial as in a voluntary voting system getting out the vote is half the game.

In Australia, compulsory voting means that sort of strategy won't work well. But it can work in the Senate as a handful of votes can get you a seat if preferences break your way. Mobilising a militant minority can work even better. That's the strategy Craig Kelly is using. I don't know whether he believes any of the nonsense he's selling. He doesn't need to believe it to benefit from it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 20, 2021, 02:28:56 pm
It's not about conspiracies, it's about politics.
Ultimately the politics is also about obtaining power or influence to build wealth and affluence.

It's the fundamental truth of someone like Trump, it's not about power, obtaining power is a means to an end, if there was no ultimate financial gain or financial security from obtaining power he and others like him(Kelly) wouldn't be in the gig!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 20, 2021, 03:13:59 pm
True. Trump is all about the grift.

But there's also a narcissistic need to be admired, loved, feared and respected. In the US, money begets power, and power begets money. And those with money and power are idolised.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 20, 2021, 03:57:16 pm
More fake outrage coming from the hospitality industry, relating to compulsory vaccinations versus nothing yet for nurses.

Let hospitality workers, office workers, factory workers, etc., etc., remain unvaccinated. But require them to wear for their full working day all the same PPE that vaccinated and unvaccinated health workers and hospital nurses must now wear, and there the comparison ends! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 20, 2021, 04:13:45 pm
More fake outrage coming from the hospitality industry, relating to compulsory vaccinations versus nothing yet for nurses.

Let hospitality workers, office workers, factory workers, etc., etc., remain unvaccinated. But require them to wear for their full working day all the same PPE that vaccinated and unvaccinated health workers and hospital nurses must now wear, and there the comparison ends! ;)

I beg your pardon, but healthcare workers were stood down if they hadnt at least booked their first vaccine dose last thursday.

12.01 on Friday the 15th was the end of their  working  elligibility.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 20, 2021, 04:22:20 pm
I beg your pardon, but healthcare workers were stood down if they hadnt at least booked their first vaccine dose last thursday.

12.01 on Friday the 15th was the end of their  working  elligibility.
As I wrote "More fake outrage ................... "

But even if it were true, the working circumstance is clearly not equal! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 20, 2021, 04:41:27 pm
Got a letter from my son's kinder saying he can go next week if both parents are double vaxxed. However this rule doesn't apply after November 5th.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 20, 2021, 04:48:05 pm
I beg your pardon, but healthcare workers were stood down if they hadnt at least booked their first vaccine dose last thursday.

12.01 on Friday the 15th was the end of their  working  elligibility.


Construction workers the same.

No vax, no work.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 20, 2021, 05:56:00 pm
Jen Psaki, the White House press secretary, was asked by her nemesis, Pete Doocey from Fox News, about reports of mass police stand downs in the wake of the vaccine mandate. She questioned him about where he got his 'facts' from and he conceded he was basing this on a mere prediction from 1 police source.

She then hit him out of the park by asking him a question: "What's the leading cause of death amongst police officers in the US this year?"

He had no answer, so she supplied it: "The leading cause of death amongst police officers is Covid 19". Bang!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 20, 2021, 06:13:30 pm
On Thursday night it's not safe to be out after 9pm but then at midnight it becomes safe and you're allowed out.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 20, 2021, 06:21:21 pm
I beg your pardon, but healthcare workers were stood down if they hadnt at least booked their first vaccine dose last thursday.

12.01 on Friday the 15th was the end of their  working  elligibility.


Correct.....vaxxed agency nurses have been getting more work offers this week..
@LP ..Full PPE gear has been a prerequisite in certain hospital wards for a while, no one wants a dose of HepC or be transmitting
anything nasty to vulnerable patients. Our Dentist and her crew had adopted fairly extensive PPE gear long before CoVid too, anywhere where
you can get blood splatter you need it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 20, 2021, 06:56:13 pm
On Thursday night it's not safe to be out after 9pm but then at midnight it becomes safe and you're allowed out.

Pedantic much?

Common sense rule will come into play and if anyone is given a fine, im pretty sure they will get off.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 20, 2021, 09:55:40 pm
What do people actually want to do on Thursday after 9 anyway?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mantis on October 21, 2021, 01:22:56 am
What do people actually want to do on Thursday after 9 anyway?

Take out the rubbish bin without breaking health regulations maybe? After all it is bin night in my neighbourhood.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 21, 2021, 08:11:11 am
What do people actually want to do on Thursday after 9 anyway?
Gather as hoons and lay rubber outside some poor saps front door!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 21, 2021, 09:14:09 am
What do people actually want to do on Thursday after 9 anyway?

You don’t want to know Thry  :D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 21, 2021, 09:50:51 am
Someone like Bolsonaro is going to the wall for his misrepresentation of the pandemic which has allegedly caused deaths of more than a 1/4 of a million people!
Quote
Early in the pandemic, he referred to COVID-19 as a "little flu." Later, he suggested that the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine can turn people into crocodiles.

In a lengthy report released Wednesday, the 11-member committee said that Bolsonaro allowed the pandemic coronavirus to spread freely through the country in a failed attempt to achieve herd immunity, leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. The report also took aim at Bolsonaro's promotion of ineffective treatments, such as hydroxychloroquine. The committee blames the president's policies for the deaths of more than 300,000 Brazilians.

In addition to crimes against humanity, the committee accused Bolsonaro of quackery, malfeasance, inciting crime, improper use of public funds, and forgery.
I don't see any difference between this guy and Trump, yet American's chose to attacked the Whitehouse instead!

Maybe they should re-label Trump as Trolsonaro, could they be the same person, have you ever seen them stand side by side live?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 21, 2021, 10:14:09 am
Take out the rubbish bin without breaking health regulations maybe? After all it is bin night in my neighbourhood.

Pretty confident you can take your bins out without breaking regulations.

Seriously the amount of crap I've seen people complaining about.

The curfews should have been scrapped weeks ago but the andrews government created a millstone for themselves with their lockdown strategy.  It couldn't be eased with rising cases because it became an admission of it not being warranted.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 21, 2021, 10:14:29 am
What do people actually want to do on Thursday after 9 anyway?

Nothing for the last couple of months but back when we were free I played basketball. Late games start at 9:40.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 21, 2021, 10:33:23 am
The curfews should have been scrapped weeks ago but the andrews government created a millstone for themselves with their lockdown strategy.  It couldn't be eased with rising cases because it became an admission of it not being warranted.
Agree, but the big problem I see isn't the removal of restrictions or lockdowns but the inability of sections of the public to accept things aren't going back to the way it was anytime soon.

The idea things become 'normal' at midnight is just a lockdown lifting myth spread by the various forms of media.

Away from our local region they are just starting to learn about this is areas that are now showing the early signs of reduced immunity. Too many holdouts and too many in a rush to return to 'normal' are causing massive issues in various health systems. I've friends and associates in Europe that describe some public behaviour as wilful self-destruction, a pandemic anarchy!

If the public was willing and sensible about it's behaviour, wearing masks and social distancing, the lockdowns and restrictions could have been lifted a long time ago, it's not the health authorities, public servants or politicians that are to blame, it's the behaviour of some segments of the general public!

Wait and see what happens this weekend when the "breaking loose" brigade hit the semi-suburban regions like the Bass Coast, Mornington or Bellarine Peninsula and find vaccinaton certificates are required and roudy visitors are far less than broadly welcome. Having been fully closed for so long no small trader is going to risk a Health Authority forcing them into a fresh quarantine just to satisfy some hold-outs demand for independance. My advice is to keep yourself and your family well away until the surge ends!

In my area authorities have also already warned us of inside information they have relating to crooks targeting the tourist destinations as visitors drop their guard, in particular make sure you've a good car lock, that is if you can find a car park without getting into a dispute! The poor weather might be a godsend!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 21, 2021, 10:40:57 am
Woolworths, apparently Australia’s largest private employer, is now mandating vaccines.

It seems the opposition to vaccine mandates has subsided. A storm in a tea cup.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 21, 2021, 10:48:16 am
EnGeneIC: Potential new Covid-19 vax for mutant strains to be developed in Australia (https://www.news.com.au/technology/science/human-body/engeneic-potential-new-covid19-vax-for-mutant-strains-to-be-developed-in-australia/news-story/7bdd1d096b2734f27e043bc45805206a), news.com.au.

Quote
An Australian biotech tech company is the first in the world to develop a potential nanocellular Covid-19 vaccine that’s expected to be more efficient against mutant strains and better suited for patients with compromised immune systems.

The unique drug developed by Sydney-based company EnGeneIC has shown a better immune response and 95 per cent efficacy in its preclinical animal studies.

Phase 1 clinical trials in healthy humans have begun at Melbourne’s St Vincent’s Hospital to test the safety and appropriate dosage. Another trial is due to established in Sydney.

According to the company, the vaccine can be kept at room temperature, has a shelf life of more than three years and doesn’t have any added stabilisers or chemicals.

There is a focus on making the drugs suitable for patients with compromised immune systems — such as people with cancer, auto-immune diseases and other chronic diseases — who may not respond effectively to existing vaccines.

EnGeneIC co-chief Jennifer MacDiarmid said there was no vaccine to date that was directed towards immune-compromised people and they were excluded from other vaccine trials that wanted emergency approval.

“People with cancer, auto-immune diseases, chronic diseases, or even older individuals have a degree of immune-deficiency and are not likely to respond effectively to current vaccines,” she said.

“Our (cancer clinical) trials also show that our treatment is very safe since it does not harm healthy cells, and in fact it is groundbreaking in that it results in activation of healthy white blood cells (immune cells) in these vulnerable patients.”
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 21, 2021, 10:49:10 am
Woolworths, apparently Australia’s largest private employer, is now mandating vaccines.

It seems the opposition to vaccine mandates has subsided. A storm in a tea cup.
That explains the aftermath of something I saw last night, a group of thugs invaded a local supermarket hit and run style ripping down the QR codes and safety messages while spray painting some illegible graffiti.  Perhaps that was the motivation of this protest, except they attacked both a Woolworths and IGA using the same technique, leaving a bunch of junior staff to clean up the mess they had created in just a few minutes!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 21, 2021, 11:21:50 am
No accounting for some mongrels. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 21, 2021, 11:32:17 am
No accounting for some mongrels. 
No that crap didn't happen before covid.

The infected anti vaxxers are like rabid zombies.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 21, 2021, 11:37:44 am
Caroline Springs, Delahey. etc get the supermarkets rolled by  gangs on a regular basis, walk into the store in numbers, take what they want then run out. Kids from overseas african backgrounds who also like to knock off top end cars in the area too.
Always at night when the cops are half an hour away due to no 24 hour station in the area.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 21, 2021, 11:58:18 am
And we stupidly allowed them in.  If we ever get back to increasing immigration, then we MUST screen nationalities / countries very carefully.  Ask Nixon ("I had to eat") who said we didn't have african gangs.  Useless waste of space
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 21, 2021, 12:16:28 pm
 ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 21, 2021, 12:58:54 pm
No that crap didn't happen before covid.

The infected anti vaxxers are like rabid zombies.
They specifically targeted the QR check-in codes, hand-sanitiser stations and social distancing posters in two supermarkets that are 150m apart and touched nothing in-between!

There is no limit to the amount of damage one dickhead can do, check out the morons using Nazi slogans as part of the anti-vax process. This sort of behaviour will lead to someone getting killed and not from a virus, it's abhorrent!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 21, 2021, 08:32:49 pm
Want to know where the anti-vaxer, COVID denier distrust of science comes from, just ask Ridley Scott and Hollywood or watch a re-run of Alien! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on October 22, 2021, 12:18:07 am
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-21/afl-aflw-no-jab-no-play-vaccination-policy/100558224

AFL following Essendons lead…
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 22, 2021, 01:00:12 am
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-21/afl-aflw-no-jab-no-play-vaccination-policy/100558224

AFL following Essendons lead…
https://www.womens.afl/news/75120?app_referral_name=AFL%20Live&app_referral_version=41104

And not 1 hour before this announcement was made one of the biggest players in aflw 'mysteriously' sits out.
Coincidence?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 22, 2021, 10:51:03 am
Probably not.

Can I just state, in the Greek psyche is a deep seeded mistrust of governing authorities, and it is largely to do with corruption.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 22, 2021, 05:49:29 pm
Salt Lake County analysed their vaccination data by birth dates to ID which Zodiac signs are vaccine hesitant:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCFxPq0VIAALTYy?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on October 23, 2021, 12:21:13 am
Salt Lake County analysed their vaccination data by birth dates to ID which Zodiac signs are vaccine hesitant:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCFxPq0VIAALTYy?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)


Could you locate one sorted by MBTI profiles, preferably overlaid against the astrological charts?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 23, 2021, 01:15:09 am
No, this is state of the art - why mess with perfection.  ;D

I knew it was those damn Scorpios that we’re stuffing things up for everyone else!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 23, 2021, 08:37:27 am
Thats about as scientific as USA are capable of.....which is rather embarrassing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 23, 2021, 11:46:15 am
Could you locate one sorted by MBTI profiles, preferably overlaid against the astrological charts?

SPF, you've got Carl Jung turning in his grave  ;)  ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 23, 2021, 11:49:11 am
Salt Lake County analysed their vaccination data by birth dates to ID which Zodiac signs are vaccine hesitant:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCFxPq0VIAALTYy?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)



I suspect they're taking the P one double five.  ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 23, 2021, 03:06:29 pm
I think they’re real stats but they were compiled for the fun of it and to get younger people talking about vaccinations. Have you seen the nonsense “stats” circulating on Facebook? For some reason, someone puts together a list of random first names of girls who are going to marry before they turn 25 etc. Or someone will post that you have to kiss the 3rd person on your @ list. I can’t see why anyone would be amused by that nonsense, but clearly they’re popular.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on October 23, 2021, 03:12:27 pm
I suspect they're taking the P one double five.  ;D

Interesting that you mention that, gemini the twins being listed as 55...
theyve used no science but they did think about it... :D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 23, 2021, 04:01:39 pm
Interesting that you mention that, gemini the twins being listed as 55...
theyve used no science but they did think about it... :D
Not a lot going on in Salt Lake city I reckon.....its the centre of everything Mormon and wholesome produce like the Osmonds.
Lot of other stuff to make you sick and wear a mask other than CoVid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 23, 2021, 05:49:14 pm
Interesting that you mention that, gemini the twins being listed as 55...
theyve used no science but they did think about it... :D

 :))  :))  :)) Mrs Baggers is one of those them thar Gemini dudes. I showed her the stats and away she went... talking, analyzing, talking, analyzing... I fully expect a thesis by later this evening, and a Ph.D by Friday.  :'(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 23, 2021, 06:37:48 pm
:))  :))  :)) Mrs Baggers is one of those them thar Gemini dudes. I showed her the stats and away she went... talking, analyzing, talking, analyzing... I fully expect a thesis by later this evening, and a Ph.D by Friday.  :'(
Tea Leaf time!

Our head of house means business when the runes come out, but maybe we are a bit older, I think she believes Vikings is our family documentary!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 23, 2021, 07:13:09 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqwHxTjXgS4
This bloke posts health reports on a finance report I follow and I rate his opinions, he is a cardiologist by trade
and gives an overview on the vaccines and while I have had Pfizer myself and havent been a fan of AstraZ he gives a decent explanation and opinion on AZ and breaks down the technology into simple terms along with the other vaccines.
Like to see Novavax get its act together production wise but thats going to take time while we see results from Japan come through and form some decent clinical trial data. Think the Japs scrapped Moderna after metal particles were found in some batches they received and they have gone Novavax.

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 23, 2021, 08:07:44 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqwHxTjXgS4
This bloke posts health reports on a finance report I follow and I rate his opinions, he is a cardiologist by trade
and gives an overview on the vaccines and while I have had Pfizer myself and havent been a fan of AstraZ he gives a decent explanation and opinion on AZ and breaks down the technology into simple terms along with the other vaccines.
Thanks for that video, don't know much about the doctor but it's a nice plain language explanation.

As each week passes they find more and more explanations why the few people that get side-effects from various vaccines get them, and they then work to manage that accordingly.

No matter what new vaccine or treatment they introduce, the more doses they issue the more side-effects they will find, it's just a simply statistical relationship.

This means in someway the safest vaccines are the ones they have already issued lots of doses for, as they are now the known knowns! ;)

Finally, one point in relation to the doctors post. The way that companies and countries calculate efficacy is not standardised, and in some cases the way the data is treated and collected is protected and subject to NDAs as commercial in confidence. So it's very hard to compare the efficacy of one versus the other based on the claimed figures, the best way to cut through to the truth is the effect of the vaccine to treatment on the public. Because so many doses of all have been issued globally, the emergency use is 1000x greater than any typical trial, the real world effects are a much more reliable indicator than any manufacturer's claim.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 23, 2021, 09:40:44 pm
Tea Leaf time!

Our head of house means business when the runes come out, but maybe we are a bit older, I think she believe Vikings is our family documentary!

The better half was born on the 23rd, me on the 25th.  Same month but 2 different star signs
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 24, 2021, 08:45:39 am
No wonder India's covid death rate has really plummeted ... a billion doses?

Bloody good job so far and 75% with at least one dose. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 24, 2021, 09:19:10 am
No wonder India's covid death rate has really plummeted ... a billion doses?

Bloody good job so far and 75% with at least one dose. 

Particularly when you consider the degree of difficulty!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 24, 2021, 10:45:18 am
No wonder India's covid death rate has really plummeted ... a billion doses?

Bloody good job so far and 75% with at least one dose. 

A guy I work with has lost 15 family members in India to covid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mantis on October 24, 2021, 11:29:58 am
A guy I work with has lost 15 family members in India to covid.

That is tragic. Sorry to hear that. I hope your work college has support for his loss.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 24, 2021, 11:50:02 am
A guy I work with has lost 15 family members in India to covid.

Not forgetting those tragedies for a minute.  They're good people but a bit slow in reaction to their covid problems. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 24, 2021, 12:30:13 pm
They're good people but a bit slow in reaction to their covid problems.
Early on Indian officials initially got sucked into the Bolsonaro solution, a HCQ / Ivermectin black hole, I presume sold on the idea those options were effective and a safe cheap solution given the enormity of the billion people problem!

Things unravelled so quickly there they had no choice but to go down the vaccine route.

India and Bangladesh have also completed some very good fundamental work. India did very good early work on the efficacy of masks and how to make functional home made versions and importantly how to use them effectively.

Bangladesh did even better and they have published the definitive double blind randomised trial that proved masks work in both indoor and outdoor spaces beyond doubt, the Bangladesh study covered more than 380,000 people in two cities. They even did it in a manner that conformed to the highest standards of medical ethics, and by comparison all other studies are so small they are now irrelevant!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 25, 2021, 10:03:21 am
As if Delta wasn’t bad enough ...

Now we have Delta Plus, a variant of the variant. It is gaining ground against its sibling in the UK, suggesting it’s more transmissible. The CDC is keeping an eye on it in the US but at the moment it hasn’t gained much traction there.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 25, 2021, 10:04:51 am
Unvaccinated tennis players will be allowed at the Aus open but they have to quarantine for 14 days.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 25, 2021, 10:11:05 am
Double standards AGAIN

EDIT - Govt has nixed it ... good work Tennis Australia, you clowns
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 25, 2021, 10:37:22 am
I’d be interested to know how rigorous the quarantine would have been. I’m thinking they would have been allowed out to practice, go to the gym, go for runs and eat in any premises that could lawfully have served them. In other words, the quarantine you do when you’re not in quarantine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 25, 2021, 10:38:41 am
Delta Plus has also gained a foothold in Israel.

Those are the two places to keep an eye on.  UK and Israel.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 25, 2021, 10:50:51 am
Unvaccinated tennis players will be allowed at the Aus open but they have to quarantine for 14 days.
They have to do hard quarantine, then stay in a bubble outside of being on court, very few will take up that offer as they will be at a huge disadvantage unable to practise, prepare and socialise to the same degree as vaccinated players. They are basically segregated from everybody else outside of being on court.

By the authorities not saying no it basically puts the decision back onto the individual regarding vaccination or no vaccination, it's basically the same as the rules for unvaccinated locals and I don't see it as a double standard at all!

You are free not to be unvaccinated, but everyone else is not obliged to make special arrangements to comply with your choice.

As far as I can tell, they are the same basic quarantine rules for returning unvaccinated Australian's, and the reduced freedoms are basically the same, excluding the bubble the international players must obey after quarantine ends.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 25, 2021, 10:58:42 am
Thinking more about the Aus Open, we need to avoid thinking about current restrictions. What will be the restrictions come the start of the new year? It may be that there won't be many restrictions in Victoria save perhaps for mask mandates and perhaps vaccine passports. Maybe they won't even exist.

The real quandary for TA is getting the players into Australia. If the Federal Govt allows unvaccinated people into Australia by then provided they do 14 days quarantine, then the Victorian Govt may not have any restrictions that will stop unvaccinated players from playing in the Aus Open. The only issue would be whether vaccine mandates will apply to players. Who knows what the vaccine mandate will be by then? After all, there's a current challenge to the vaccine mandate wending its way through the Supreme Court with 100 plaintiffs attached to it. 

The ball seems to be firmly in the Fed Govt's court. Maybe the TA email was more of a projection of the restrictions that will apply in the new year rather than a suggestion that they will have an exemption from current restrictions. But if that's the case, this was a PR blunder as it's easy to assume it's a case of TA getting an advantage. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 25, 2021, 11:05:26 am
Thinking more about the Aus Open, we need to avoid thinking about current restrictions. What will be the restrictions come the start of the new year? It may be that there won't be many restrictions in Victoria save perhaps for mask mandates and perhaps vaccine passports. Maybe they won't even exist.
I think one of the problems is the Feds are perceived to be having a bob each way, calling for states to open up but then enforcing quarantine rules confuses the public, but I don't see those decisions as a contradiction at all!

They won't make any genuine changes for months, it'll be early in the New Year before we see significant changes if any. At the moment the current conditions favour vaccinated and healthy people, the politicians see themselves in that group with very few acknowledging their own age or fragility. That's a problem of human perception, old, frail or vulnerable is always someone else when the observer is healthy! But the risk is some new variant won't respect those boundaries, in much the same way that Delta has bent the age limits.

As much as some new variant can be a negative, it also has some positives, because vaccine refusal has plummeted as more and more youthful cases of COVID surface. There are very few youthful hold outs now, and rightly so, adolescents are no longer seeing themselves as immune!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 25, 2021, 10:30:54 pm
I think one of the problems is the Feds are perceived to be having a bob each way, calling for states to open up but then enforcing quarantine rules confuses the public, but I don't see those decisions as a contradiction at all!

They won't make any genuine changes for months, it'll be early in the New Year before we see significant changes if any. At the moment the current conditions favour vaccinated and healthy people, the politicians see themselves in that group with very few acknowledging their own age or fragility. That's a problem of human perception, old, frail or vulnerable is always someone else when the observer is healthy! But the risk is some new variant won't respect those boundaries, in much the same way that Delta has bent the age limits.

As much as some new variant can be a negative, it also has some positives, because vaccine refusal has plummeted as more and more youthful cases of COVID surface. There are very few youthful hold outs now, and rightly so, adolescents are no longer seeing themselves as immune!

As Dan Andrews pointed out on the wireless today, the Federal Government has placed a quota on the number of unvaccinated Australians who can return to Australia, quite rightly, because our quarantine capacity is limited.   Andrews said that it would be wrong to give priority to unvaccinated tennis players and I think that's fair enough.  I'm assuming that the returning Aussies have valid reasons for not being vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 26, 2021, 05:17:38 am
Dan is happy to force spectators and workers at the Australian open to be vaccinated why is he gun shy here?
Wouldn't be worried about the tournament going to Sydney would he?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 26, 2021, 12:47:58 pm
Wife took her dad and our 4 year old out to a cafe this morning. Her dad was rejected because he isn't double jabbed yet, he gets his second shot tomorrow.
The young lady who rejected them copped an earful, not from my wife or her father who was embarrassed but my son who was promised a milk shake.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on October 26, 2021, 01:31:27 pm
4 year olds aren't the easiest to deal with when they lose it, and trying to teach them anything can sometimes feel like a waste of time, but hopefully it was explained to him that the young lady was trying to do the right thing, and I assume he was offered a takeaway milkshake, which is not a bad consolation prize.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 26, 2021, 01:40:38 pm
While MBBs partner was a victim of circumstance not everyone out and about at the moment is acting innocently.

There are some horror stories coming out of various outer metro regions from last weekend relating the abhorrent behaviour of antivaxxers targeting small businesses. I feel genuinely sorry for the small business owners, they have every right to make a living and they are also free to choose compliance or non-compliance with the law, when they choose to comply they should not have to put up with cockheads roaming around lighting fires!

Several small café owners have also been targeted with vandalism for complying with the current laws.

Of course this is why vigilantism is illegal, no matter what side of the debate it exists on it will nearly always hurt the innocent! I also fear there is a rising intolerance that might see some very bad outcomes.

I also find it ironic that the staunch anti-vaxers aren't out targeting and closing some big venue like a popular pub full of punters, instead they seem to always target Ma and Pa type businesses, it's gutless and exposes the protestors as the parasites that they are!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 26, 2021, 02:30:39 pm
Shades of BLM riots. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 26, 2021, 03:05:30 pm
Wife took her dad and our 4 year old out to a cafe this morning. Her dad was rejected because he isn't double jabbed yet, he gets his second shot tomorrow.
The young lady who rejected them copped an earful, not from my wife or her father who was embarrassed but my son who was promised a milk shake.
Went to get a haircut where they were vigilant with wanting vax certificate but then went to a cafe with my wife for lunch and they didnt bother checking at all even though they had a sign up saying no vax no service.
I volunteered my check in certificate and they had zero interest, Reject shop didnt even have anyone on the entrance, people just strolling straight through. Cant see this vax cert/passport requirement holding up for very long, staff just cant be bothered...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 26, 2021, 03:13:53 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9lh7lqZojc
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on October 26, 2021, 03:45:14 pm
Haircuts are taking longer.  Mine seemed to take ages - hair was the longest it had been for about 35 years.

We must have done the same thing Elwood - hairdresser checked, cafe didn't, in spite of sign saying they would, although they do know who I am - didn't have to worry about ordering even after lockdown, they still remembered what I have.

It is the un-policeable rule.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 26, 2021, 04:56:47 pm
Haircuts are taking longer.  Mine seemed to take ages - hair was the longest it had been for about 35 years.

We must have done the same thing Elwood - hairdresser checked, cafe didn't, in spite of sign saying they would, although they do know who I am - didn't have to worry about ordering even after lockdown, they still remembered what I have.

It is the un-policeable rule.


Dodge, The salon had the owner at the front desk doing the checking and even helping some older ladies/gents with their phone apps. My usual hairdresser was fresh from her 2nd jab had the headaches/ brain fog happening and said she couldnt be bothered checking and was over it all.
My haircut didnt take that long given there isnt as much to work with these days.😉

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 27, 2021, 09:50:00 am
Scomo has confirmed that the unvaccinated can come into the country providing they quarantine.
 
Now Andrews has to be the one to block Novak and co from playing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 27, 2021, 10:19:09 am
I've been chatting with associates in the Northern Hemispehere overnight, they are not confident at all as winter approaches up there. They think our current COVID decline is a false dawn similar to that experienced in the UK and Israel, buying the politicians, health officials and bureaucrats time to ready themselves for the next wave.

Specifically we spoke about the right wing attack on scientists and health officials, they said it was the same there earlier this year when falling numbers started a wave of enquiries labelling the predictions of epidemiology experts alarmist and extreme, then as things got colder cases started rising again! As a result a lot of foreign governments are putting the same rules in lace that are proposed here, which is a portent to much harder lockdowns next time around if it happens!

So what will NSW or Qld do if things turn ordinary after summer, I think I'd rather have prior warning like the Vic bill than just having new rules sprung on me unannounced like might happen in NSW or Qld.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 27, 2021, 10:21:17 am
Scomo has confirmed that the unvaccinated can come into the country providing they quarantine.
 
Now Andrews has to be the one to block Novak and co from playing.
The rules here are nothing special, Novak cannot even fly freely around the USA without providing proof of vaccination just like the NBA or NFL players.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 27, 2021, 10:37:52 am
Why in the feck do we need this arrogant person to play in the tournament?   Stuff him 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 27, 2021, 10:47:20 am
Why in the feck do we need this arrogant person to play in the tournament?   Stuff him 

At one stage 30% of the players were anti vax including a number of top seeds.
Dan didn't want to make the call on this in case Tennis Australia decided to say FU to him and move it to Sydney who are already trying to steal the GP from us.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 27, 2021, 10:54:27 am
With respect, so what?  And trust me, I can't stand andrews

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 27, 2021, 11:37:26 am
So what will NSW or Qld do if things turn ordinary after summer, I think I'd rather have prior warning like the Vic bill than just having new rules sprung on me unannounced like might happen in NSW or Qld.
It has a more immediate effect in Victoria. Once it's passed into law, the Govt can reissue the vaccine mandate and the Human Rights Charter won't be available to challenge it. The current Supreme Court challenge will fail, just as Clive Palmer's suit against the WA Govt failed after legislation was passed that prevented such an action.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 27, 2021, 12:55:16 pm
The tennis players are happy to use Australia as a political pawn, but watch them all fall into line by the time the US Open comes around, they have a will so weak you can bend it with a dollar bill!

Reminds me of Macron, all puff and bluster with Australia, but already within days or even hours, back cap in hand visiting the US and UK!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 27, 2021, 01:06:42 pm
Scomo has confirmed that the unvaccinated can come into the country providing they quarantine.
 
Now Andrews has to be the one to block Novak and co from playing.

And he's done just that.  It seems that State Governments have to apply for an exemption to enable unvaccinated people to enter the country and Andrews has advised that Victoria won't be seeking an exemption.

Winning the tournament may be within reach of more players this time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 27, 2021, 01:23:56 pm
It'll be interesting to see if Dan's critics do a big 180 and switch from slamming Dan for applying a double standard to unvaccinated tennis players by allowing them to play to slamming him for not recognising that the Aus Open needs an exemption. That's the thing about total opposition: it doesn't matter what the Govt does, you just take the opposite position on everything it does. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 27, 2021, 01:32:43 pm
It'll be interesting to see if Dan's critics do a big 180 and switch from slamming Dan for applying a double standard to unvaccinated tennis players by allowing them to play to slamming him for not recognising that the Aus Open needs an exemption. 
I'll be more surprised if they don't flip, I expect it!

Can we run a lottery on who goes off first, Credlin, Bolt, Panahi or maybe a outsider like Jones?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 27, 2021, 01:44:26 pm
I'll be more surprised if they don't flip, I expect it!

Can we run a lottery on who goes off first, Credlin, Bolt, Panahi or maybe a outsider like Jones?

Have any of them commented on the Australian open yet?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 27, 2021, 01:52:21 pm
Have any of them commented on the Australian open yet?
Only Sky is commenting today specifically about the Aust Open, Panahi and Bolt have a long running series of commentary about major events, vaccine passports and exemptions surrounding major events. But they frame that commentary in the context of local freedoms rather than visitor or player impact.

It's political, they will all make commentary even if it is framed ambiguously.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 27, 2021, 03:51:35 pm
I've been chatting with associates in the Northern Hemispehere overnight, they are not confident at all as winter approaches up there. They think our current COVID decline is a false dawn similar to that experienced in the UK and Israel, buying the politicians, health officials and bureaucrats time to ready themselves for the next wave.

Specifically we spoke about the right wing attack on scientists and health officials, they said it was the same there earlier this year when falling numbers started a wave of enquiries labelling the predictions of epidemiology experts alarmist and extreme, then as things got colder cases started rising again! As a result a lot of foreign governments are putting the same rules in lace that are proposed here, which is a portent to much harder lockdowns next time around if it happens!

So what will NSW or Qld do if things turn ordinary after summer, I think I'd rather have prior warning like the Vic bill than just having new rules sprung on me unannounced like might happen in NSW or Qld.

Most alarming, is that Israel released the shackles, at the beginning of their summer, with almost 0 positives per day.

Its taken some time for things to get to a pretty awkward spot for them, but awkward nonetheless.

The worst of this is STILL very much ahead of us, and I keep telling people (despite whether or not they want to listen) that how we treat people during this very testing time, is almost as important as the pandemic response.

If society decends to levels where the common person "couldnt give a stuff" about others, then we are in all sorts of trouble COVID or 0 COVID. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 27, 2021, 04:47:29 pm
Most alarming, is that Israel released the shackles, at the beginning of their summer, with almost 0 positives per day.

Its taken some time for things to get to a pretty awkward spot for them, but awkward nonetheless.

The worst of this is STILL very much ahead of us, and I keep telling people (despite whether or not they want to listen) that how we treat people during this very testing time, is almost as important as the pandemic response.

If society decends to levels where the common person "couldnt give a stuff" about others, then we are in all sorts of trouble COVID or 0 COVID.
Agreed, the next big issue might not be COVID directly but the indirect overload of hospitals and health care staff as we open up. I suspect like yourself the worst is potentially ahead of us, a lot hangs in the balance subject to the new treatments because immunity it seems won't be everlasting.

As I've said several times, we can open up but we must still respect the safe basics, and I fear it will descend into a free for all.

Japan is also a nice model to monitor, it has basically preceded what has happened in NSW and Vic and now enters winter, they are not confident at all and have a large chunk of the population vaccinated. A population that is far far more compliant than here! :o

Bejing has locked down millions even though they are nearly all vaccinated with Sinovax, note we are about to approve Sinovax locally.

These are significant tells!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 27, 2021, 08:22:14 pm
A guy I know lost his brother in the phillipines to covid, he was 42. He had 2 jabs of Sinovax.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 27, 2021, 11:52:56 pm
Agreed, the next big issue might not be COVID directly but the indirect overload of hospitals and health care staff as we open up. I suspect like yourself the worst is potentially ahead of us, a lot hangs in the balance subject to the new treatments because immunity it seems won't be everlasting.

As I've said several times, we can open up but we must still respect the safe basics, and I fear it will descend into a free for all.

Japan is also a nice model to monitor, it has basically preceded what has happened in NSW and Vic and now enters winter, they are not confident at all and have a large chunk of the population vaccinated. A population that is far far more compliant than here! :o

Bejing has locked down millions even though they are nearly all vaccinated with Sinovax, note we are about to approve Sinovax locally.

These are significant tells!

The TGA has recognised Sinovax and Covishield (India's version of AstraZeneca) but will not approve them.  That means that neither vaccine will be used in Australia but folk fully vaccinated with either will be permitted to enter Australia.

It was interesting listening to Norman Swan today.  He was discussing the impact of vaccine passports on infection rates in Israel and Denmark. 

He was asked whether a vaccinated person should socialise with an unvaccinated friend.  The answer was "Yes, unless you have children." 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 28, 2021, 08:12:55 am
The TGA has recognised Sinovax and Covishield (India's version of AstraZeneca) but will not approve them.  That means that neither vaccine will be used in Australia but folk fully vaccinated with either will be permitted to enter Australia.
That resolves a problem for a lot of travellers.

I've heard that acknowledging the vaccines is just the first step with further applications to come in the weeks that follow, but I admit I'm not familiar with the process. The comments seemed to make sense, by getting the vaccinations accepted they basically use arriving vaccine recipients as local proof that the vaccines provide efficacy. If they didn't arrivals would have to be re-inoculated and they lose the evidence. So the strategy is that unless there are excessive numbers of cases appearing in arriving Sinovax recipients they are unlikely to refuse a future application.

A lot of the pressure for this to happen is coming out of education and tourism sectors, they want Asian travellers back!

Ironically, being re-vaccinated won't be a bad thing for the vast majority of people!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 28, 2021, 07:56:24 pm
A guy who does some work for us has had to take off until the end of the year (at least).

His Mum, dad and grandfather who all live together have all copped covid. He has to look after them. He is double vaxed (not sure about them) but will almost certainly get it too.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 29, 2021, 09:17:30 am
A friend’s three year old grandson was infected with COVID at childcare last month.  Fortunately, he wasn’t very ill and is back to full health.  His parents and grandmother are fully vaccinated and, despite the little fellow’s best efforts and generous sharing of bodily fluids, they were not infected.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 29, 2021, 09:42:40 am
Victoria’s 91.3% first dose rate is first rate. I’d imagine the committed anti-vaxxers will make it hard to improve much on that figure.

But that figure needs to be reduced to reflect the vaccination rate in the whole community as it includes only those 16 years and over. Assuming around 20% are younger than that, then the first dose vaccination rate goes down to about 73% of the community. But that figure would have to be increased to reflect vaccinations in the 12-15 year age group unless those vaccinations are included already in the 91.3% figure.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 29, 2021, 12:31:20 pm
Victoria’s 91.3% first dose rate is first rate. I’d imagine the committed anti-vaxxers will make it hard to improve much on that figure.

But that figure needs to be reduced to reflect the vaccination rate in the whole community as it includes only those 16 years and over. Assuming around 20% are younger than that, then the first dose vaccination rate goes down to about 73% of the community. But that figure would have to be increased to reflect vaccinations in the 12-15 year age group unless those vaccinations are included already in the 91.3% figure.

The 91.3% figure is 16s and older.

79% of Victoria's 12-15 year olds have received their first vaccination and 45% are fully vaccinated.  That's an amazing result given the timeframe.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 29, 2021, 12:57:04 pm
Victoria’s 91.3% first dose rate is first rate. I’d imagine the committed anti-vaxxers will make it hard to improve much on that figure.

But that figure needs to be reduced to reflect the vaccination rate in the whole community as it includes only those 16 years and over. Assuming around 20% are younger than that, then the first dose vaccination rate goes down to about 73% of the community. But that figure would have to be increased to reflect vaccinations in the 12-15 year age group unless those vaccinations are included already in the 91.3% figure.


The anti vaxxer I work with just gave up and got it done. He was going to hold out till the state of emergency finished but realised nothing is going to change with Dan's super power bill about to go through.

We have a contractor who visits here most days who got an exemption till December by signing up for a trial for the Aussie vaccine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mantis on October 30, 2021, 03:02:53 am
Dan Andrews super bill. The Pandemic Management bill will be a big problem for the entire community in Victoria. It will create many problems if it gets through. Allowing rules and restrictions including restrictions of movements based on “individual attributes and characteristics “ applies to any living person on this planet. Don’t we all have individual attributes and or characteristics? Wow. Welcome back to the Second World War with what the Nazi regime put into place. Just asking a question. Just saying what is going on. No speculation here. Democracy under question? Maybe.? Maybe not?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 30, 2021, 08:04:26 am
I wouldn't trust him to take a dog for a walk ... power mad
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on October 30, 2021, 08:30:16 am
The sooner we concede - or at least discuss openly - that this current batch of CV19 vaccines are next to useless - we might have a chance as a society.

VE, cited as a relative measure is a useless measure without looking at, in tandem, the absolute efficiency.

Time to revisit the swag of early treatments readily available (absent TGA 'bans').

c19early.com

2 jabs + 2 boosters in a 12 month period = NOT a vaccine.

Don't stop infection or transmission = destroys the argument for any form of vaccine passport.

Latest data out of the UK - vaccinated folk have higher rates of infection and hospitalisation than the unvaxxed....in all age deciles above 30.

Just a money generating, poorly conceived treatment. On a good day.

Let's see who steps up - so gleefully and readily for the ongoing series of boosters....

For a disease that was #38 on the causes of death in Australia in 2020 (pre vaccine). When the great majority of those CV19 related were caused by government malfeasance.

Meanwhile, our beloved Premier, true to form, forgetting (again) he's a public servant.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/coronavirus/state-government-makes-lastminute-bid-to-stop-lockdown-files-release/news-story/c755c2002617bb4867f77ccb432f0d90
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on October 30, 2021, 10:45:52 am
Yep, take Ivermectin instead, yada, yada, yada ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on October 30, 2021, 11:01:50 am
VERY interesting reading this morning how and why India's death numbers have dropped like a stone.

Turns out they (allegedly) have a natural body immunity to the virus.  In a way, I'm not surprised by that given their living conditions over many generations and a build up of resistance.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 30, 2021, 02:43:43 pm
VERY interesting reading this morning how and why India's death numbers have dropped like a stone.

Turns out they (allegedly) have a natural body immunity to the virus.  In a way, I'm not surprised by that given their living conditions over many generations and a build up of resistance.

From what I've read, just under 70% of the Indian population now has COVID antibodies, indicating that they have been vaccinated or have been exposed to the virus.  Only 52% of the population has had one vaccination so a significant number of those with COVID antibodies must have had the virus.  This represents a serious undercount of infections; 33 undetected infections for every one detected  :o

Undercounting COVID cases and deaths has been a feature of the pandemic in India.  Excess deaths has been estimated at between 3.4 and 4.9M and the official COVID death toll is 400,000.

Similar sharp declines in case numbers were observed in the UK, the Netherlands and Israel after the most recent spikes and were explained as likely to be the result high vaccination rates and high infection levels.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 02, 2021, 10:52:58 am
I'd prefer DJC's explanation. But I'll follow the science, wherever that leads. If it does transpire that Indians have stronger immunity against Covid, then so be it. But clear scientific evidence would be required rather than conjecture.

The 2 intuitive arguments against the idea would be:

Unfortunately, commonplace harsh and unsanitary conditions don't tend to confer stronger immunity. That's the reason why there has been so much concern for indigenous communities and minorities such as black Americans. Poorer access to healthcare and good nutrition leaves people more susceptible to Covid rather than more protected from it. Disadvantage reduces life expectancy rather than increasing it.

That's not to say that there aren't people who have a greater level of natural immunity against Covid. That's the benefit of genetic diversity through sexual reproduction. Clones produced by asexual reproduction would always have the same strengths and weaknesses. For species using that method of reproduction, a fatal new disease will wipe out the whole population.  With sexual reproduction, some may well survive and allow the species to regenerate. There was even 1 guy, Stephen Crohn, who was totally resistant to HIV thanks to a genetic mutation. There was talk early on in the pandemic that some blood types may be less affected by Covid than other blood types. So I can buy the idea that there are some people in every community who have little to fear from Covid but I doubt that there are entire populations who have that golden ticket.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 02, 2021, 11:19:53 am
The Victorian vaccine mandate challenge will be heard in late November or early December. The Judge who will hear it has just ruled against a motion by the plaintiffs to get her to withdraw from the case due to perceptions of bias. That's a great start to the plaintiff's case. Unless you know you're going to lose anyway, it aint a great idea to piss off the Judge. But it's great for conspiracy theorists. Ironically, if she had withdrawn from the case, the trial would have been delayed until the new year given that she was alllocated the case because she was the only one who could hear it this year.

Given that the mandated 2nd dose is supposed to be 26 November, will there be many who hold out for the ruling? And if the new pandemic legislation does go through, will the plaintiffs get any benefit out of a win in Court?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 02, 2021, 08:01:13 pm
An interesting correlation to the India scenario is that the bat blamed for Sars-CoV-2 spreads and migrates across the Asian Subcontinent from India to China, and early on some science sources thought the genetics pointed to a origin in the subcontinent, but that was lost in the lab leak and wet market hypothesis.

So it's quite possible that initial finding was on the money and India may have some natural immunity.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 02, 2021, 09:04:29 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong, the only way a population can gain a natural immunity to a disease is for those who are susceptible to it to die from it or at least be rendered infertile. Then natural selection will enable those who are genetically resistant to it become dominant. That would take a long time to play out and the mass deaths would be legendary.

The other way is for the population to be widely exposed to a disease and develop an immunity that might in some cases be life-long. But leaving aside the messy theory about epigenetics, that immunity wouldn’t be passed on to the next generation as there’d be no genetic change or mutation. This was historically the way Europeans were able to survive smallpox and then use it against indigenous populations in the Americas as a biological weapon. Children who were infected with smallpox wouldn’t become very sick and they’d be immune for life.

But if the latter method had caused Indians to develop widespread immunity that predated Covid-19, that means Covid-19 was circulating in India well before it escaped from Wuhan. If this were even a possibility, the Chinese would have been yelling it from the rooftops. As they haven’t, we can stick a fork in that idea.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on November 02, 2021, 11:42:56 pm
Perhaps India had a mild case of the disease and that mutated into the one that came out of wuhan....and continues to mutate today.

That'd offer some kind of immunity without the need for conspiracy theories wouldn't it?
It could simply be China had no knowledge of it.
There has always been some question marks on time frames....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 02, 2021, 11:47:28 pm
Perhaps India had a mild case of the disease and that mutated into the one that came out of wuhan....and continues to mutate today.

That'd offer some kind of immunity without the need for conspiracy theories wouldn't it?
It could simply be China had no knowledge of it.
There has always been some question marks on time frames....


Not with the official death rate in India, and definitely not with the likely death rate.  They were hit very hard.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 03, 2021, 12:49:23 am
Not with the official death rate in India, and definitely not with the likely death rate.  They were hit very hard.
Agree....about 40% of children in India dont get registered at birth, the authorities cant have accurate figures.
They had cremation grounds in Gujarat that had fires going 24 hours a day burning bodies, dont think they were counting.
Official figures have the death rate getting close to 5 mill but modelling done in the USA reckon its between 2-5 times that..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 03, 2021, 02:53:02 am
If India's genetic immunity is real we have no idea of when it was gained, the roots of Sars or Sars-CoV-2 could be thousands of years, don't think too recent.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 03, 2021, 08:13:26 am
Not only would the Indians have struggled to keep reliable stats on Covid infections and deaths even if they had prioritised that task, I doubt there was the political will to do so. There’s always a temptation for politicians to minimise the extent of a problem that develops under their watch, but Prime Minister Modi had more reason than most to do so. His party ran an election campaign during the pandemic and the campaign relied heavily on Trump-style rallies with massive crowds standing shoulder to shoulder. Critics slammed him over this and the last thing he wanted was official confirmation that Covid deaths had exploded afterwards.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 03, 2021, 08:17:08 am
Not only would the Indians have struggled to keep reliable stats on Covid infections and deaths even if they had prioritised that task, I doubt there was the political will to do so. There’s always a temptation for politicians to minimise the extent of a problem that develops under their watch, but President Modi had more reason than most to do so. His party ran an election campaign during the pandemic and the campaign relied heavily on Trump-style rallies with massive crowds standing shoulder to shoulder. Critics slammed him over this and the last thing he wanted was official confirmation that Covid deaths had exploded afterwards.
Yes very true, this is no different to Africa and Sth America, even if accuracy was wanted the infrastructure just isn't present to keep a tab on things anyway.

Months ago I read an estimate that reported COVID case counts in Africa might be as much as one quarter of the real case count. But it should not surprise us, because even here, in the UK or the USA the stats do not catch every case.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 03, 2021, 05:30:39 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c3rWBSJZTk
My preference if a booster required....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on November 04, 2021, 11:46:58 am
Mate runs a retail place in Northcote.

In the first three hours yesterday,  verbally abused by 5  customers,  who refused to mask up,  sign in, provide hard copy contact details or  show proof of vaccination as required by the new mandates. 

Massive fines for retailers that are found to have "unregistered" (I can't think of a better word)  people on the premises.

Thanks Dan, you're not the poor bastard who has to enforce the rules you rammed through.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 04, 2021, 12:13:35 pm
My preference if a booster required....
Based on what I have been reading, I think it makes perfect sense to get a cross vaccination as the booster shot.

Firstly, the early results suggest it looks like the key to having a broader spectrum immunity is not to be welded onto any single vaccine. People should be aware that this idea of a blended solution is what has been happening with the influenza vaccines for years so it is not something new or experimental but it is a very old school practise.

Secondly, no one vaccine works for 100% of the population, any single vaccine at best will provide 85% of the population with some protection, but for a different vaccine it might not be the same 85% protected. So by mixing and matching you reduce the number of people who are unprotected.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on November 04, 2021, 03:11:16 pm
I had an unsettling experience yesterday with an anti-vaxxer. I was shopping at a Good Guys store, minding my own business,  when I was approached by a mid-forties male who began talking to me with the fervour of a religious zealot.

In a loud voice he told me that governments (unspecified) were to blame for Covid. Further, he said nobody knows what is in the vaccines and that his research led him to the conclusion that one man was responsible for it all - Bill Gates.

If this guy represents the typical anti-vaxxer then there is no turning them.  His manner was such that I just got out of the store as fast as I could.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 04, 2021, 03:44:10 pm
If this guy represents the typical anti-vaxxer then there is no turning them.  His manner was such that I just got out of the store as fast as I could.
The bell has already been rung! ;)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dt1b5EIX4AIfPbQ.jpg)

All jokes aside, there are a lot of nutters roaming around shopping centres accosting people for wearing masks, etc., etc., they don't get the irony of imposing their space invading will on others! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 04, 2021, 03:48:45 pm
That was the best response, Macca. Trying to reason with them is like arguing with a toddler. It's an impossible mission: they aren't bound by facts or logic.

Was he wearing a mask or did he believe the mask mandate is just a method malevolent governments have used to inflict hypoxia on people so they're easier to manipulate? Geez, I never want surgeons to operate on me: they've all suffered brain damage from being starved of oxygen in operating theatres ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 05, 2021, 10:43:48 am
Looks like season might be over for Green Bay's Aaron Rogers, COVID positive, no valid vaccination, tried to pass off homeopathy as a valid Sars-CoV-2 immunisation.

Now if they(Wisconsin) follow global best practise he can't be vaccinated for six months since being COVID positive, and as an unvaccinated player he'll effectively be out of the game unless the NFL make some special exemption.

Serve him right for trying to defraud the game and it's participants!

I think Green Bay Packers should be within their rights to try and reclaim lost revenue by suing the practitioner, and withhold Roger's payments for lying to the club!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 05, 2021, 11:03:43 am
I had an unsettling experience yesterday with an anti-vaxxer. I was shopping at a Good Guys store, minding my own business,  when I was approached by a mid-forties male who began talking to me with the fervour of a religious zealot.

In a loud voice he told me that governments (unspecified) were to blame for Covid. Further, he said nobody knows what is in the vaccines and that his research led him to the conclusion that one man was responsible for it all - Bill Gates.

If this guy represents the typical anti-vaxxer then there is no turning them.  His manner was such that I just got out of the store as fast as I could.

I think that religious zealot is an apt comparison.

They (anti-vaxxers) wouldn't know what research is, let alone how to conduct research, and they have simply formed a belief based on conspiracy theories, misinformation and half-truths.  I guess it's evolution at work.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 05, 2021, 11:10:59 am
I guess it's evolution at work.
The trouble is our taxes pay to keep them healthy, technology and bureaucracy working against natural selection / evolution.

All the while the nutters continue to infect innocent bystanders, in particular those innocent bystanders who for whatever reason might not be able to be vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 05, 2021, 11:49:18 am
Looks like season might be over for Green Bay's Aaron Rogers, COVID positive, no valid vaccination, tried to pass off homeopathy as a valid Sars-CoV-2 immunisation.

Now if they(Wisconsin) follow global best practise he can't be vaccinated for six months since being COVID positive, and as an unvaccinated player he'll effectively be out of the game unless the NFL make some special exemption.

Serve him right for trying to defraud the game and it's participants!

I think Green Bay Packers should be within their rights to try and reclaim lost revenue by suing the practitioner, and withhold Roger's payments for lying to the club!
The AFL couldn't afford to have the sort of stuff happening right now in the NFL. First, the Las Vegas Raiders coach bites the dust due to racist and other -ist emails which also involved a Washington FC official, and just recently Henry Ruggs III was "released" by the Las Vegas Raiders after killing a woman in a massive crash after veering into the rear of her car while travelling at 250 kmh with a BAC of 0.16%. The NFL must be envious the AFL only has to deal with Jordan De Goey. 

What an idiot Rodgers is. Doesn't he know that Ivermectin is the silver bullet?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 05, 2021, 12:07:04 pm
What an idiot Rodgers is. Doesn't he know that Ivermectin is the silver bullet?
How do you know it wasn't Ivermectin or HCQ in the homeopathic mix? ;D

"Everybody knows" after it's been diluted a million fold it's vigorously succussed to make it a billion times more potent, so it's at least a thousand times better than a normal dose, I mean it's obviously the case! ;)

(https://caitandtiff.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/22a-john-shaken-gif.gif)

I'm currently marketing a new high tech version (See below), it's called a fullbody successer, for those times when you get an injection, capsule or pill that can't be diluted. It also works for chemotherapy, radiotherapy and other "nucular" medicines! ;)

(https://media1.giphy.com/media/3o7qE1v9aDr31BSlNe/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47ko128nhgid9a4ivwf6cz16ymyx780a496o257ltq&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)

But you must not do it too close to a 5G tower or it will amplify the negative energies, and FFS never have a hot drink just before using it! We had one trial patient who tried that with some herbal tea and the latent heat was immediately amplified a billion fold turning him instantly into a pyroclastic cinder, which his wife now cherishes mounted on a white gold negative energy neutralised chain!

A word of warning about these powerful methods.

We thought we were onto something a year or two ago, Homeopathic Petrol. One drop in a litre, then succuss but at this stage it's nowhere near dilute enough and it's too weak, you have to take a drop from this and go through two or three more cycles of dilution and succussion before you get to the working petrol substitute that you can put straight into the car at the cost of a few cents per megalitre. But unfortunately, trying to make a high octane version for drag racing, our Beirut test lab went one step too far and things got very nasty!

(https://d21rhj7n383afu.cloudfront.net/washpost-production/The_Washington_Post/20200804/5f29845e46e0fb00013fa383/5f299c59cff47e0009898333_1450955028646-chsuqu_t_1596562523380_640_360_400.gif)

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 05, 2021, 12:14:33 pm
Looks like Rodgers is being slammed for being a diva, lying about being vaccinated, and the NFL and Green Bay having 1 rule for him and another for the lesser guys.

He tried to be cute by saying he'd been "immunised" when a reporter asked him if he'd been vaccinated. He might have been able to say he hadn't actually lied (although this was clearly a grey lie at least), but he went from grey lie to blatant lie when he added “There’s guys on the team that haven’t been vaccinated. I think it’s a personal decision. I’m not going to judge those guys.” To be clear, the NFL refused his request that his homeopathic remedies should be treated as vaccinations.

The one rule for Aaron and another for everyone else thing comes from the fact that the NFL and presumably someone at Green Bay was aware he was unvaccinated and yet Green Bay and the NFL allowed him to attend media events without masking, contrary to clear NFL protocols. Many unvaccinated players attend to those commitments by zoom instead.     
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 05, 2021, 12:53:47 pm
2 cases from the Melbourne cup. 10,000 people there. No one calling it a superspreader event though.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 05, 2021, 02:00:15 pm
2 cases from the Melbourne cup. 10,000 people there. No one calling it a superspreader event though.
Will it be though?

It's a test for vaccination, social distancing measures, mitigation and crowd behaviour. I have to wonder if everybody was really vaccinated, or were there exemptions offered for some who had legitimate reasons for not being vaccinated?

Do we know how the positives were found, PCR or Lateral Flow Tests?

Do events like that get testing priority? I think in the timeframe offered it's too early to be confirmed, secondary tests as part of track and trace for primary contacts would still be running now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 05, 2021, 02:31:29 pm
Interesting to read that Pfizer has been linked to over 250 myocarditis cases in Australia, that count not including pericarditis, I believe that myocarditis count alone is more than the total Astrazeneca TTS, yet Pfizer myocarditis side-effects still hardly get a mention!

Pfizer's myocarditis side-effect happens in any patient, almost randomly distributed across age groups, Astrazeneca TTS in now know to be specific to a subset of the population that have a precursor condition known as APS. They can test in advance and tell patients if they have a high chance of getting Astrazeneca related TTS.

I just do not understand why the media has this reporting bias, I have to assume there are vested interests or that it's a face saving exercise because a change exposes the earlier bias and errors present in the reporting.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 05, 2021, 02:45:26 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c3rWBSJZTk
I have to correct one thing the CCO states in this video.

Responding to a question he refers to both Pfizer and AZ as mRNA vaccines which is obviously wrong, he'd know that and a CCO like that does not "misspeak" such facts, it's well rehearsed and he'll roll it out hundreds of times in interviews, he stumbled / stuttered out "those two" after being asked about all three, Pfizer, AZ and Moderna.

If he stood up in front of his peers and said that he'd be laughed off stage, you can hear it from the 41 second mark below, it's marketing spin. None of the companies involved are genuine or free of guilt in this regard!

https://youtu.be/-c3rWBSJZTk?t=41
For clarity;
AZ = Adenovirus, circa 1960s
Novavax = Protein Subunit, circa 1980s
Pfizer/Moderna = mRNA, circa 2000s

None were invented last couple of years like the anti-vaxers want you to believe!

Sinovax and Sputnik are even older, they are related to killed (inactivated) virus vaccines going back to the first ever sterile vaccines that were used in the early 1900s!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on November 05, 2021, 05:42:25 pm
All the while the nutters continue to infect innocent bystanders, in particular those innocent bystanders who for whatever reason might not be able to be vaccinated.

Okay, can we stop with this because IT IS NOT TRUE. This is FALSE.

If you have been vaccinated, you can STILL carry the virus, infect others and also contract Covid. This continual peddling of this type of information which NOBODY HERE has pulled up, just contributes to the various conspiracy theories going around.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 05, 2021, 06:36:48 pm
Interesting to read that Pfizer has been linked to over 250 myocarditis cases in Australia, that count not including pericarditis, I believe that myocarditis count alone is more than the total Astrazeneca TTS, yet Pfizer myocarditis side-effects still hardly get a mention!

Pfizer's myocarditis side-effect happens in any patient, almost randomly distributed across age groups, Astrazeneca TTS in now know to be specific to a subset of the population that have a precursor condition known as APS. They can test in advance and tell patients if they have a high chance of getting Astrazeneca related TTS.

I just do not understand why the media has this reporting bias, I have to assume there are vested interests or that it's a face saving exercise because a change exposes the earlier bias and errors present in the reporting.
How many people has Pfizer/Moderna actually killed in Aus?..we have had two family members with issues, both males in their early 30's, one had myocarditis from Pfizer  and was taken to hospital for a 2 day stay and the other had Moderna which brought him out in lumps on his collarbone which were Lipoma's caused by a reaction to the vaccine, he also had a bad rash around the area. Sputnik has been a disaster in Russia, no one wants it, we have friends there who live down south on the Black sea coast and take up is about 30%, death rate is a lot higher than reported too, everyone wants to get across to Turkey to get Pfizer given the mistrust of the local product.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 05, 2021, 08:02:11 pm
Okay, can we stop with this because IT IS NOT TRUE. This is FALSE.

If you have been vaccinated, you can STILL carry the virus, infect others and also contract Covid. This continual peddling of this type of information which NOBODY HERE has pulled up, just contributes to the various conspiracy theories going around.

Yes, but the chances are minute compared to non-vaccinated folk.  Furthermore, the symptoms experienced by vaccinated folk are generally much milder.

Have you been taking note of the percentages of infected folk who are unvaccinated?

The bottom line is get vaccinated or prepare to get very sick 🙁
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on November 06, 2021, 01:30:06 am
Yes, but the chances are minute compared to non-vaccinated folk.  Furthermore, the symptoms experienced by vaccinated folk are generally much milder.

Have you been taking note of the percentages of infected folk who are unvaccinated?

The bottom line is get vaccinated or prepare to get very sick 🙁

Actually the bottom line is this: Stop spreading misinformation which was what my post was in reply to.

Quote from: LP on November 05, 2021, 11:10:59 AM
All the while the nutters continue to infect innocent bystanders, in particular those innocent bystanders who for whatever reason might not be able to be vaccinated. - AND COULD BE INFECTED BY VACCINATED PEOPLE AS WELL.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 06, 2021, 02:47:24 am
Okay, can we stop with this because IT IS NOT TRUE. This is FALSE.

If you have been vaccinated, you can STILL carry the virus, infect others and also contract Covid. This continual peddling of this type of information which NOBODY HERE has pulled up, just contributes to the various conspiracy theories going around.
The nutters are space invading unmasked anti-vaxing gob5h!tes with zero respect for those around them.

Plenty of us have talked through the relative risks of infection and transmission, myself included!

Freedom comes at a price, always has always will, it's the anti-vaxers that want the free lunch in this case, they aren't the defenders of freedom, they limit the rest of us for their own selfish beliefs! The 2c social media logic they peddle about defending freedom is completely backwards!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 06, 2021, 02:55:39 am
How many people has Pfizer/Moderna actually killed in Aus?..we have had two family members with issues, both males in their early 30's, one had myocarditis from Pfizer  and was taken to hospital for a 2 day stay and the other had Moderna which brought him out in lumps on his collarbone which were Lipoma's caused by a reaction to the vaccine, he also had a bad rash around the area. Sputnik has been a disaster in Russia, no one wants it, we have friends there who live down south on the Black sea coast and take up is about 30%, death rate is a lot higher than reported too, everyone wants to get across to Turkey to get Pfizer given the mistrust of the local product.
The distrust in Sputnik and Sinovax is that they don't deliver resistance, it's not driven by the idea that Pfizer is safer but that it does the job!

If Pfizer is killing less as a percentage it was primarily due to knowledge about how to treat the side-effects, they still don't have the why. AZ was statistically already as safe as Pfizer, and now they have the why they can treat the side-effects it should become even safer!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 06, 2021, 09:03:46 am
How many people has pfizer killed in Australia?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 06, 2021, 09:46:14 am
The distrust in Sputnik and Sinovax is that they don't deliver resistance, it's not driven by the idea that Pfizer is safer but that it does the job!

If Pfizer is killing less as a percentage it was primarily due to knowledge about how to treat the side-effects, they still don't have the why. AZ was statistically already as safe as Pfizer, and now they have the why they can treat the side-effects it should become even safer!
The distrust in Sputnik is that the locals don't trust the Government and what's in the vaccine. I have read it isn't as effective but that's not the main reason take up is poor.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on November 06, 2021, 09:58:14 am
The nutters are space invading unmasked anti-vaxing gob5h!tes with zero respect for those around them.

Plenty of us have talked through the relative risks of infection and transmission, myself included!

Freedom comes at a price, always has always will, it's the anti-vaxers that want the free lunch in this case, they aren't the defenders of freedom, they limit the rest of us for their own selfish beliefs! The 2c social media logic they peddle about defending freedom is completely backwards!

LP, the point was Stop spreading misinformation, and this is directed to EVERYONE - this has gone on too long. It should have been pulled up long ago and has not been. Anti-mask wearing, anti-vaxxers aside, the information being perpetuated is simply false and needs to be called out as such. Anyone CAN be a carrier of Covid 'vaccinated' or not.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 06, 2021, 10:19:39 am
LP, the point was Stop spreading misinformation, and this is directed to EVERYONE - this has gone on too long. It should have been pulled up long ago and has not been. Anti-mask wearing, anti-vaxxers aside, the information being perpetuated is simply false and needs to be called out as such. Anyone CAN be a carrier of Covid 'vaccinated' or not.

Completely agree @spf
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 06, 2021, 10:49:30 am
LP, the point was Stop spreading misinformation, and this is directed to EVERYONE - this has gone on too long. It should have been pulled up long ago and has not been. Anti-mask wearing, anti-vaxxers aside, the information being perpetuated is simply false and needs to be called out as such. Anyone CAN be a carrier of Covid 'vaccinated' or not.

Yes, anyone can be be a carrier but the probability of a vaccinated person being a carrier is significantly lower than a non-vaccinated person.

According to a study published in the Lancet, breakthrough infections may occur in less than 30% of the vaccinated population (all age groups, ethnicity, etc). If you’re not infected, you can’t be a carrier.

The other major finding from that study is that only 10% of vaccinated folk, if infected, will develop serious symptoms.

If you’re not vaccinated, there is a very high probability that you will become infected and pass COVID on to others, and particularly the under 12s who can’t be vaccinated yet.

We’re around 90% vaccinated in my part of the world.  We still have folk demanding the right to their freedom to refuse vaccination but they’re few and far between.  QR codes, mask discipline and vaccination certificates are the norm and I’m pretty confident that, in the unlikely event that I will come into contact with someone with COVID, my chances of avoiding infection are pretty good.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on November 06, 2021, 11:53:13 am
I kind of see the point being made.
I think it's the talk in "absolutes" that some folk have an issue with.

"Have the vaccine you're safe as houses."
"Don't have it and you're f**ked."

It's not that straight forward
Different folk will respond in different ways and there will be some unvaccinated with nothing more than a sniffle, and some double vaccinated who will die.
The reality is even amongst the unvaccinated the symptoms will not be severe in most cases.
That's what were were told before the vaccines.
In most cases it's not severe and age and underlying conditions are a major factor.
But unvaccinated you're more likely to get a bad dose and spread it easier.

As DJC points out what the vaccine does for most people is that it reduces the impact of covid.
That's good enough for me to go with it...and there is the added incentive that my actions may prevent me from spreading it because if I catch it I will have it in a reduced form.

It's not so much misleading information.
It's more not emphasising (by omission) that the vaccine is not a cure-all it's just a rather significant barrier.

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 06, 2021, 11:58:08 am
I wonder whether this sort of argument ever happened in the military.
General Smith: Armour on tanks protects tank and crew from shells from opposing tanks and artillery.
General Jones: But armoured tanks are still destroyed by opposing tanks or artillery, so there's no point having armour. Why not save money and allow tanks to strip their armour to make them faster and more agile?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on November 06, 2021, 12:44:14 pm
The AFL couldn't afford to have the sort of stuff happening right now in the NFL. First, the Las Vegas Raiders coach bites the dust due to racist and other -ist emails which also involved a Washington FC official, and just recently Henry Ruggs III was "released" by the Las Vegas Raiders after killing a woman in a massive crash after veering into the rear of her car while travelling at 250 kmh with a BAC of 0.16%. The NFL must be envious the AFL only has to deal with Jordan De Goey. 

What an idiot Rodgers is. Doesn't he know that Ivermectin is the silver bullet?
https://www.nfl.com/news/aaron-rodgers-explains-decision-to-not-get-covid-19-vaccination-in-first-comment
Quote
After learning he had contracted the virus, the 37-year-old said he consulted with podcast host Joe Rogan on treatments.

"I've been taking monoclonal antibodies, ivermectin, zinc, vitamin C and D, HCQ (Hydroxychloroquine) … and I feel pretty incredible," Rodgers said.
This man ain't no idjit.


(https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/4cb09af27b1dc2c0f6eb6f400b09f120)


...and might i say as a Vikings fan.....F*** the packers and Aaron Rodgers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 06, 2021, 12:45:01 pm
Wow, Aaron Rodgers is channelling Nixon who once declared "I am not a crook!" (spoiler alert, yes he was).

Aaron Rodgers has declared "not an anti-vax flat earther" (spoiler alert, it looks as though he is).

Aaron Rodgers Gives Wild Anti-Vaccine Interview After Catching COVID-19 (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/aaron-rodgers-anti-vaccine-interview_n_618572b3e4b0c8666bdc8f98), Huffpost.

And we come full circle: he says he's taking Covid treatment advice from Joe Rogan, who also caught Covid and is an advocate of Ivermectin.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on November 06, 2021, 12:47:04 pm
Wow, Aaron Rodgers is channelling Nixon who once declared "I am not a crook!" (spoiler alert, yes he was).

Aaron Rodgers has declared "not an anti-vax flat earther" (spoiler alert, it looks as though he is).

Aaron Rodgers Gives Wild Anti-Vaccine Interview After Catching COVID-19 (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/aaron-rodgers-anti-vaccine-interview_n_618572b3e4b0c8666bdc8f98), Huffpost.

And we come full circle: he says he's taking Covid treatment advice from Joe Rogan, who also caught Covid and is an advocate of Ivermectin.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/02/28/b0/0228b0ae5c5fc21959ac4fe5b11b6e2d.png)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 06, 2021, 01:14:40 pm
Yep, got me. I'd say great minds think alike, but you, me, or both of us might be offended by that!   :P
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 06, 2021, 02:00:27 pm
Testing positive is not the same as being infectious, this is where the general population's understanding of catching and spreading COVID goes wrong,

You can test positive but have a very low viral load, so as such the chance you will transmit it become very low. That is primarily why some people are declared as low risk after being found positive. Your chance of catching Sars-CoV-2 depends on the amount of virus you get exposed to. It's true if you are unlucky, very unlucky, you could catch it from the one single virus but the chances are very low less than winning tattslotto.

People with vaccination are likely to have a very low viral load if positive, and as such they are much less likely to transmit.

@spf‍ This is why being vaccinated matters, and it is not disinformation or misinformation, it is the reason there is a huge difference between the risk of spread through unvaccinated versus the vaccinated positive cases.

Some studies have found vaccinated positives cases have an average viral load three orders of magnitude lower than unvaccinated cases, that is 1000x lower! But none of the studies are big enough to be definitive, although they are consistent with the expectations of the virologists.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 06, 2021, 02:33:01 pm
Yep, this is the problem with combatting disinformation. If you don't make the message simple enough to put on a bumper sticker, then no one will bother to listen to the message (& even if they do, the qualifications will be enough to turn them off). The misinformation and disinformation on social media is so persuasive as the messages are so strong and unqualified: Vaccines don't work! Vaccines will kill you! Ivermectin is better than vaccines!

But of course as soon as the message is crafted for the social media audience, the anti-vaxxers will take advantage of the fact the message isn't nuanced. And we have the preposterous idea that if double-vaccinated people can still catch Covid, there's no real difference between them and unvaccinated people.

It reminds me of an election campaign in which Barry Jones had the education portfolio and had produced a large blackboard on which he had a flow chart of various policy proposals and their effects. It was classic Barry Jones as he was a noted egghead (and he came to prominence as a quiz champion in Pick a Box). But of course such a complex presentation was just asking for ridicule and the Liberals were happy to oblige.   
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on November 06, 2021, 05:05:08 pm
How do you craft it Mav?
We're dealing with a vast range of ideas, experiences and intellectual capacity.
But we may be selling the Australian population a bit short.
Realistically , the message is getting through, and vaccination rates are sky high.

The main message is get vaccinated for the protection of yourself and others.
Good message.

Do we not mention that you can still get covid, you can still pass it on and still maybe get very sick.
That's important to know, otherwise the other strategies like mask wearing, check ins, social distancing are compromised.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 06, 2021, 05:34:03 pm
How do you craft it Mav?
We're dealing with a vast range of ideas, experiences and intellectual capacity.
But we may be selling the Australian population a bit short.
Realistically , the message is getting through, and vaccination rates are sky high.

The main message is get vaccinated for the protection of yourself and others.
Good message.

Do we not mention that you can still get covid, you can still pass it on and still maybe get very sick.
That's important to know, otherwise the other strategies like mask wearing, check ins, social distancing are compromised.

Dont think the message of the latter has been sold very well, lot of vaccinated folk think that have got the jab/s and thats job done so its party time.
 Not sure the probable requirement for Boosters is being broadcast well enough either, you open up International borders and we will be getting new cases with probable new strains and that will mean boosters for many who were vaccinated early IMHO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 06, 2021, 05:47:23 pm
It ends up as in an unequal fight, though, when anti-vaxxers can take potshots on 1 narrow issue but pro-vaxxers are expected to repeat the totality of the information surrounding Covid-suppression policies every time they open their mouths.

Like it or not, rhetorical matters are a concern when trying to persuade people. Just ask advertisers: that's why radio ads which are required to provide the fine print in financial and other products include those details via someone speaking at a rate that makes it hard to understand what s/he's saying. Otherwise, focus is lost, as with the famous scene from The Life of Brian: "All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"

It's a problem every student writing an essay has to confront: there's always a pet paragraph, quote or point that has to be ditched to make a better essay. And if you have 4 great points, it makes more of an impact if you can stay with a triplet.

Now, that doesn't mean that there's any lying by omission. In a thread like this, I could take you to a few hundred posts that have discussed just the point that allegedly has been hidden. And every government or health advisory online would have that information somewhere. Often the FAQ is the best place for it, e.g.

Or people could just Google reputable governmental or health websites to find the answers to those questions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on November 06, 2021, 07:55:33 pm
Everyone knows the real facts are on YouTube… 🙄
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 06, 2021, 08:19:42 pm
It ends up as in an unequal fight, though, when anti-vaxxers can take potshots on 1 narrow issue but pro-vaxxers are expected to repeat the totality of the information surrounding Covid-suppression policies every time they open their mouths.

Like it or not, rhetorical matters are a concern when trying to persuade people. Just ask advertisers: that's why radio ads which are required to provide the fine print in financial and other products include those details via someone speaking at a rate that makes it hard to understand what s/he's saying. Otherwise, focus is lost, as with the famous scene from The Life of Brian: "All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"

It's a problem every student writing an essay has to confront: there's always a pet paragraph, quote or point that has to be ditched to make a better essay. And if you have 4 great points, it makes more of an impact if you can stay with a triplet.

Now, that doesn't mean that there's any lying by omission. In a thread like this, I could take you to a few hundred posts that have discussed just the point that allegedly has been hidden. And every government or health advisory online would have that information somewhere. Often the FAQ is the best place for it, e.g.
  • If I'm double-dosed, does that mean I can forget about masks, washing my hands and social distancing?
  • If I'm double-dosed, can I still contract Covid?
  • If I contract Covid when I'm double-dosed, can I still spread Covid?

Or people could just Google reputable governmental or health websites to find the answers to those questions.
Reputable Governmental?........that would be excluding any  Government websites from Victoria via Dan Andrews Government I presume because Reputable Government doesnt apply in this case. Reputable and the Vic Government being an oxymoron...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 06, 2021, 08:46:00 pm
There's 3 Liberal governments to look to if you think the right is always right.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 06, 2021, 11:29:03 pm
I dont understand what all the fuss is about.

Most people are vaccinated.

The minority that are not are going to find out whether or not they should have been vaccinated in due course.

Either they are correct and those who vaccinated did so for nought.  Or getting vaccinated is correct and we are about to see natural selection at work.

To hit this home, I dont see why there is an argument against vaccination, because the majority of the counter arguments are juxtaposed.

Covid is fake.
The government want to control everyone, so they're forcing obedient tax paying citizens to take a vaccine that will kill them to protect against a man made virus that was designed to kill people, so I won't take a vaccine.

Short sighted thinking really.

I dont understand what the kerfuffle is about from those who are vaccinated.   Go live your lives in peace. 



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 06, 2021, 11:30:12 pm
Reputable Governmental?........that would be excluding any  Government websites from Victoria via Dan Andrews Government I presume because Reputable Government doesnt apply in this case. Reputable and the Vic Government being an oxymoron...

On what basis?

Compare the information on the Victorian Government website with that of any other State or Territory, or the Commonwealth.  They're virtually identical ... and four of our nine governments are LNP.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 07, 2021, 12:12:58 am
On what basis?

Compare the information on the Victorian Government website with that of any other State or Territory, or the Commonwealth.  They're virtually identical ... and four of our nine governments are LNP.
On this basis...
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/not-sustainable-dozens-of-covid-19-patients-missing-from-icu-figures-20211102-p59567.html
The Age on Thursday viewed data from the federal Critical Health Resource Information System, which showed there were currently 181 coronavirus patients in Victorian ICU beds - 67 more patients and almost 63 per cent higher than the 114 publicly reported by the state’s Health Department.
One senior intensive care physician has expressed frustration that Victoria’s daily ICU numbers were continually being misrepresented by the government, describing the state’s intensive care system as “so close to a crisis, it’s not funny”.





Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on November 07, 2021, 08:13:22 am
I dont understand what all the fuss is about.

Most people are vaccinated.

The minority that are not are going to find out whether or not they should have been vaccinated in due course.

Either they are correct and those who vaccinated did so for nought.  Or getting vaccinated is correct and we are about to see natural selection at work.

To hit this home, I dont see why there is an argument against vaccination, because the majority of the counter arguments are juxtaposed.

Covid is fake.
The government want to control everyone, so they're forcing obedient tax paying citizens to take a vaccine that will kill them to protect against a man made virus that was designed to kill people, so I won't take a vaccine.

Short sighted thinking really.

I dont understand what the kerfuffle is about from those who are vaccinated.   Go live your lives in peace. 

I think the majority of the issues are people worrying about family members who can not get vaccinated for health reasons.....or even young kids who cannot get vaccinated.

The more unvaccinated adults there are, the more chance of the 'weaker' population getting it who can not get vaccinated.

Not specifically directed at you but there is a pretty clear division between anti-vaxers and everyone else. Anti-vaxers talk about the whole pandemic from their point of view. I, I, I, me, me, me. The other side of the fence usually bring friends and family into the discussion.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 07, 2021, 10:46:45 am
On this basis...
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/not-sustainable-dozens-of-covid-19-patients-missing-from-icu-figures-20211102-p59567.html
The Age on Thursday viewed data from the federal Critical Health Resource Information System, which showed there were currently 181 coronavirus patients in Victorian ICU beds - 67 more patients and almost 63 per cent higher than the 114 publicly reported by the state’s Health Department.
One senior intensive care physician has expressed frustration that Victoria’s daily ICU numbers were continually being misrepresented by the government, describing the state’s intensive care system as “so close to a crisis, it’s not funny”.


The Age reporter should have looked more closely at the figures.  The 64 (not 67) ICU patients are not listed as COVID cases because they are no longer infectious.  That's how COVID cases have always been reported and there is no under-reporting of ICU cases or the fact that the 64 patients are in ICU because they had COVID.  The critical figure is that 98% of Victorian COVID ICU cases are unvaccinated.

But that's missing the point that all jurisdictions carry basically the same information about COVID, the same FAQs, etc.  Go to any State, Territory or Commonwealth COVID website and you'll get the same information.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 07, 2021, 12:06:34 pm
The Age reporter should have looked more closely at the figures.  The 64 (not 67) ICU patients are not listed as COVID cases because they are no longer infectious.  That's how COVID cases have always been reported and there is no under-reporting of ICU cases or the fact that the 64 patients are in ICU because they had COVID.  The critical figure is that 98% of Victorian COVID ICU cases are unvaccinated.

But that's missing the point that all jurisdictions carry basically the same information about COVID, the same FAQs, etc.  Go to any State, Territory or Commonwealth COVID website and you'll get the same information.
I'll disagree and go with what was reported in the Age and what the medical staff know to be the truth, how many are in the beds has nothing to do with the vaccination rates. The critical issue is the misrepresentation of figures by a corrupt government....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 07, 2021, 04:22:32 pm
I think the majority of the issues are people worrying about family members who can not get vaccinated for health reasons.....or even young kids who cannot get vaccinated.

The more unvaccinated adults there are, the more chance of the 'weaker' population getting it who can not get vaccinated.

Not specifically directed at you but there is a pretty clear division between anti-vaxers and everyone else. Anti-vaxers talk about the whole pandemic from their point of view. I, I, I, me, me, me. The other side of the fence usually bring friends and family into the discussion.


I get that, but the reality is, that no matter how badly I want people to march to the beat of my drum they aren't going to if they don't think its in their best interests to do so.

People aren't going to get vaccinated without a personal reason to do so whether we like it or not.

Those who can't get vaccinated i empathise with but the options for them are very few and far between and might simply mean needing to live very differently.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 07, 2021, 05:07:09 pm
Some Vaccine news......apart from completing a regulatory submission in Aus and other countries for their CoVid19 vaccine I have heard on the grapevine that Novavax are testing a Covid-nanoFlu vaccine in about 10 sites around Australia and have recruited 50-70 year old healthy adults to test out their combo vaccine. Moderna have a combo vaccine in experimental phase but havent advanced it to clinical testing yet so it looks like for the future it will be a one jab does all approach for CoVid/Flu related vaccines.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 07, 2021, 05:13:43 pm
I'll disagree and go with what was reported in the Age and what the medical staff know to be the truth, how many are in the beds has nothing to do with the vaccination rates. The critical issue is the misrepresentation of figures by a corrupt government....

From the Age article:

Quote
Dr Holley said while he did not believe there was any deliberate intention by the Victorian government to mislead the public, the administrative discrepancies between states highlighted the need for a nationally consistent standard on how coronavirus cases in ICUs were recorded.

“It would be very preferential at a national level that we are unified in our reporting, so there is no confusion,” he said.

A Victorian Health Department spokesman confirmed that the daily COVID-19 data released by state officials only reflected infectious patients.

“This is consistent with reporting COVID-19 in the community,” he said, adding the number of people in ICU – infectious with COVID-19 or otherwise – is monitored closely and factored into hospital planning.
...

Melbourne intensive care doctor David Pilcher said the system of only publicly reporting “active” coronavirus cases first emerged last year as it was the easiest way to record the daily numbers.

He said it initially didn’t make much of a difference to the official count because most patients last year were typically treated as infectious as it wasn’t obvious when they could be safely considered cleared of the virus.

Earlier this week, Professor Pilcher confirmed there were more than 60 patients who were in Victorian intensive care units due to COVID-19 who weren’t included in the “active” figures, including many of the most seriously ill, placed on a heart and lung machine.

The researcher was concerned the public would have a false impression about the workload being created by COVID-19 patients, especially when these dozens of beds might be needed due to demand created by Victorians needing beds after critical surgery or after accidents during the festive season.

However, Professor Pilcher said he didn’t believe there was “malicious intent” on behalf of the Victorian Health Department in its reporting of the COVID-related intensive care admissions - rather it had just become hard to change.

So, the system of recording active cases that Victoria has used throughout the pandemic is now "misrepresentation by a corrupt government".  I'd rather go with the opinion of the ICU practitioners quoted in the Age article.

The number of folk in the ICU beds has everything to do with the vaccination rates. 98% of COVID ICU cases are unvaccinated.  If they were vaccinated, the probability of them getting COVID and requiring an ICU bed would be significantly lower.  Practically, it's the unvaccinated 5% (25% in some municipalities) that are putting our ICUs under pressure.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 07, 2021, 06:35:58 pm
From the Age article:

So, the system of recording active cases that Victoria has used throughout the pandemic is now "misrepresentation by a corrupt government".  I'd rather go with the opinion of the ICU practitioners quoted in the Age article.

The number of folk in the ICU beds has everything to do with the vaccination rates. 98% of COVID ICU cases are unvaccinated.  If they were vaccinated, the probability of them getting COVID and requiring an ICU bed would be significantly lower.  Practically, it's the unvaccinated 5% (25% in some municipalities) that are putting our ICUs under pressure.
The senior intensive care physician, who spoke to The Age on the condition of anonymity as he was not authorised to speak publicly, said despite a decline being reported in the official daily hospital numbers last month, the true number of COVID-19 patients in ICU had been hovering near 190 every day for weeks.

“You’ve got a system in Victoria that’s so close to being overwhelmed it has just skated by over the last few weeks,” the doctor, who works at a large Melbourne hospital, said.

I'll agree to disagree  and like I said I'll go with the ICU Dr's and staff working in the Melbourne Hospitals who are on the front line and the article confirms what I have been told by people who know staff at those hospitals. Staff have been deterred from speaking  so it must be serious when senior physicians are speaking off the record to the media like "the Age"
There needs to be an Australian standard in reporting cases and I find it confusing how the states report differently especially the two largest and main affected in NSW and Victoria.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 07, 2021, 07:27:52 pm
Un-Vaccination rates are the whole point, they are the reason hospitals are overwhelmed whether that is true or not!

98% of hospitalisation cases are unvaccinated, they beg for the vaccine, but by then it's all too late!
Quote from: The Rage
Others come to the realisation too late that the deadly virus is real, begging for a vaccine before being hooked up to a ventilator, unsure whether they will regain consciousness.

“It has been incredibly challenging and distressing,” Western Health intensive care director Craig French said.

There is a tiny resuscitation table for newborn babies in the corner of the ward following a surge in pregnant, unvaccinated women being admitted, putting them and their unborn babies in heightened danger of severe outcomes.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/in-the-icu-where-only-maria-is-vaccinated-others-die-in-disbelief-20211105-p596gc.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 07, 2021, 08:53:27 pm
Maybe this might explain why hospitals are being overwhelmed:
Quote
Superspreaders’ vow to return
The latest figures come as organisers of protests against vaccine mandates and proposed pandemic laws threaten to march every week until their demands are met.

A crowd of self-proclaimed superspreaders marched through Melbourne’s CBD on Saturday in a bid to “kill the bill” which will go before the Victorian Upper House that would give the government specific powers in a pandemic.

These would be used as an alternative to state of emergency declarations that need to be renewed every four weeks.

Protesters cheered as a man took to the stage to “thank” his “fellow superspreaders”.

“Tomorrow the hospitals will be full,” he said.

Victoria's Covid cases grow as 'superspreaders' vow to fill hospitals (https://au.news.yahoo.com/victorias-covid-cases-grow-as-super-spreaders-vow-to-fill-hospitals-231514954.html), Yahoo News.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 07, 2021, 11:25:57 pm
The senior intensive care physician, who spoke to The Age on the condition of anonymity as he was not authorised to speak publicly, said despite a decline being reported in the official daily hospital numbers last month, the true number of COVID-19 patients in ICU had been hovering near 190 every day for weeks.

“You’ve got a system in Victoria that’s so close to being overwhelmed it has just skated by over the last few weeks,” the doctor, who works at a large Melbourne hospital, said.

I'll agree to disagree  and like I said I'll go with the ICU Dr's and staff working in the Melbourne Hospitals who are on the front line and the article confirms what I have been told by people who know staff at those hospitals. Staff have been deterred from speaking  so it must be serious when senior physicians are speaking off the record to the media like "the Age"
There needs to be an Australian standard in reporting cases and I find it confusing how the states report differently especially the two largest and main affected in NSW and Victoria.

So, a senior intensive care physician at one hospital has a better take on the overall COVID numbers in ICUs than the Health Department?  Give me a break!

For a start, public and private hospital employees may only speak to the media with permission.  To do otherwise requires anonymity.  That's not Government deterring staff from speaking out, it's standard media management that dates back to the Kennett years when it comes to public hospitals, and even longer in the case of private hospitals;

I have family and friends in the public and private health systems and half of the folk in my neighbourhood are surgeons working in Geelong and Melbourne.  They consistently state that, while our health system is under-funded and under stress, it is coping very well with the additional burden of COVID cases taking up ICU beds.

And for a first hand account of what it's like in an ICU with COVID patients:

Quote
Increasingly, the vast majority filling the [Sunshine Hospital's Intensive Care Unit] are severely ill unvaccinated people, some who remain adamant that COVID-19 does not exist even when they are succumbing to the virus.

Others come to the realisation too late that the deadly virus is real, begging for a vaccine before being hooked up to a ventilator, unsure whether they will regain consciousness.

“It has been incredibly challenging and distressing,” Western Health intensive care director Craig French said.

“Patients and their families have expressed the belief that they don’t have COVID, it’s not real to them, even though they are critically ill or somebody they love is very, very sick.”
https://www.theage.com.au/national/in-the-icu-where-only-maria-is-vaccinated-others-die-in-disbelief-20211105-p596gc.html

In July this year, opposition health spokesperson, Georgie Crozier, criticised the Victorian Government for increasing ICU and critical care beds from 499 (ICU) beds in July 2020 to 1606, arguing that we would never need that many.  Aren't you glad that the LNP aren't in charge of our health system? 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mantis on November 08, 2021, 12:43:13 am
I just wonder when people understand the new public health and well-being act or pandemic management plan has a huge effect on how we will live in 2022. It has been passed in the lower house, and will be up for grabs in the upper house 16th to 18th of this month. The new PHW Act 2021. 100 plus pages. Please read every page. Ignore 80% full vaccinated population. 90% population. 95% population vaccinated. We have been sold a certain level of vaccinated population of Victorians giving us a chance to live with a virus that can’t be held to zero levels. Like the old influenzas of past, it can’t be removed from the planet of the earth because it evolves. It mutates to exist. We will open up he flood gates by Dan Andrews promises. It won’t happen properly. He will allow 80,000 people at the Boxing Day test on day one. He will allow Christmas to exist as normal as possible for all to experience. I fear what this Pandemic Management bill will see for us all in 2022. I fear the worst. Not for me. I am an old Kent that could drop off the earth tomorrow and feelI have lived a life of freedom and fun for many years. So many fun years that I feel blessed. $20,909 fines for not wearing a mask. $90,000 for forgetting to check in a shop with QR codes. 2 years jail time for either, both or worse? Dan forgot his mask once. He paid a $400 fine. He announced it for all to hear on TV. Where does this new bill help see us in the future? It ignores the judicial system because it is a pandemic management plan. It has a special panel to set your complaints to a group to complain to. A selected panel that the Premier of the state has selected as an independent group. How independent is that?

I am not a pro Liberal party Victorian. I just need to hear and see what is real. Not the hidden fact that more than 13 teenagers have been diagnosed with Myocarditis after a vaccine in South Australia. Hard to see this as a once in a million case by studies. Not to forget those above that age that add to these statistics. I am not an anti-vaxer. I have been jabbed or I would have lost my job. My daughter which I love with all my heart tells me the figures stated in the media are not what she can see in her every day life at work. She is a nurse at the biggest hospital in Victoria. We are all fecked. Dan Andrews has screwed us all. The media tells us very little. If I have said something that states I can’t contribute to this site again, then I will say good bye and thanks for having me here. We are in big trouble next year and you heard first femme here.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 08, 2021, 01:55:15 am
So, a senior intensive care physician at one hospital has a better take on the overall COVID numbers in ICUs than the Health Department?  Give me a break!

For a start, public and private hospital employees may only speak to the media with permission.  To do otherwise requires anonymity.  That's not Government deterring staff from speaking out, it's standard media management that dates back to the Kennett years when it comes to public hospitals, and even longer in the case of private hospitals;

I have family and friends in the public and private health systems and half of the folk in my neighbourhood are surgeons working in Geelong and Melbourne.  They consistently state that, while our health system is under-funded and under stress, it is coping very well with the additional burden of COVID cases taking up ICU beds.

And for a first hand account of what it's like in an ICU with COVID patients:

In July this year, opposition health spokesperson, Georgie Crozier, criticised the Victorian Government for increasing ICU and critical care beds from 499 (ICU) beds in July 2020 to 1606, arguing that we would never need that many.  Aren't you glad that the LNP aren't in charge of our health system? 
I have a large representation of my family  and extended family in the medical system and I'll respectfully disagree.....I'm not a Labor or LNP voter either and have stated that previously although I am happy to applaud Andrews and his crew when they find the 1.3 billion which was promised for those 4000 ICU beds and training of staff etc..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 08, 2021, 01:58:23 am
I just wonder when people understand the new public health and well-being act or pandemic management plan has a huge effect on how we will live in 2022. It has been passed in the lower house, and will be up for grabs in the upper house 16th to 18th of this month. The new PHW Act 2021. 100 plus pages. Please read every page. Ignore 80% full vaccinated population. 90% population. 95% population vaccinated. We have been sold a certain level of vaccinated population of Victorians giving us a chance to live with a virus that can’t be held to zero levels. Like the old influenzas of past, it can’t be removed from the planet of the earth because it evolves. It mutates to exist. We will open up he flood gates by Dan Andrews promises. It won’t happen properly. He will allow 80,000 people at the Boxing Day test on day one. He will allow Christmas to exist as normal as possible for all to experience. I fear what this Pandemic Management bill will see for us all in 2022. I fear the worst. Not for me. I am an old Kent that could drop off the earth tomorrow and feelI have lived a life of freedom and fun for many years. So many fun years that I feel blessed. $20,909 fines for not wearing a mask. $90,000 for forgetting to check in a shop with QR codes. 2 years jail time for either, both or worse? Dan forgot his mask once. He paid a $400 fine. He announced it for all to hear on TV. Where does this new bill help see us in the future? It ignores the judicial system because it is a pandemic management plan. It has a special panel to set your complaints to a group to complain to. A selected panel that the Premier of the state has selected as an independent group. How independent is that?

I am not a pro Liberal party Victorian. I just need to hear and see what is real. Not the hidden fact that more than 13 teenagers have been diagnosed with Myocarditis after a vaccine in South Australia. Hard to see this as a once in a million case by studies. Not to forget those above that age that add to these statistics. I am not an anti-vaxer. I have been jabbed or I would have lost my job. My daughter which I love with all my heart tells me the figures stated in the media are not what she can see in her every day life at work. She is a nurse at the biggest hospital in Victoria. We are all fecked. Dan Andrews has screwed us all. The media tells us very little. If I have said something that states I can’t contribute to this site again, then I will say good bye and thanks for having me here. We are in big trouble next year and you heard first femme here.
Your daughter sees what my daughter does, if they ban you then they can ban me too...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 08, 2021, 05:32:38 am
Yeah, where are those beds?  Just more bu11crap
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 08, 2021, 10:19:55 am
It seems weird that health workers would comment on alleged unreported cases of myocarditis, and connect that to the political decision chain as causal.

Personally, to me that looks like a link that is a great outcome from some pretty good spin coming from trillion$ pharma, swallowed hook line and sinker by the people under their direct sphere of influence, the people working in health! Of course it does not mean the workers are complicit, just that they are influenced by those around them.

I've been saying right from the start, for all the vaccines there is no functional difference in side-effect levels or rates, people seem to want to believe otherwise for either personal motivation, be it wealth building or social media presence. The apparent bias in the reporting is stark, and people's willingness to accept the absence of criticism for some suppliers is a huge tell.

I don't know who to believe or why, but I will always look at all sides with equal levels of scrutiny and cynicism because there are far to many agendas to accept any of this as it is spoken!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 08, 2021, 11:33:48 am
Whats weirder is people on a forum ignoring what is possibly true and the fact that there is rather draconian measures put in place that are both harmful and dangerous.

Mantis has had very little to say on his subject and has raised some very real and serious concerns.  The myocarditis is possibly real.

Regarding the icus coping very well, the place I work at just re-opened 14 beds today that they had closed for staffing issues.  Thats out of a total of less than 70 across 3 sites to staff it properly at one. One of the other sites has come back online today. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 08, 2021, 11:50:08 am
Whats weirder is people on a forum ignoring what is possibly true and the fact that there is rather draconian measures put in place that are both harmful and dangerous.

Mantis has had very little to say on his subject and has raised some very real and serious concerns.  The myocarditis is possibly real.

Regarding the icus coping very well, the place I work at just re-opened 14 beds today that they had closed for staffing issues.  Thats out of a total of less than 70 across 3 sites to staff it properly at one. One of the other sites has come back online today. 
The Myocarditis issues Mantis raised are real, one Melb ER was clogged with vaccine side effect patients with imaginary and real symptons all wanting ECG's and Blood tests.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 08, 2021, 12:00:46 pm
Given that I haven't bothered to read the Bill, I can't comment on specifics. But my impression is that it takes away the CHO's sole power to impose health orders and instead places it in the hands of the government. In reality, that will temper the severity of health orders as the CHO's almost exclusive focus is on controlling pandemic outbreaks. The Government will have to take into account other interests such as the needs of the business and sports/entertainment sectors.  The Government of the day will also have no ability to shift the blame for restrictions onto the CHO and will have to answer for any restrictions on a political level (even more than is currently the case).

Rather than being worried that it's too draconian, my concern would be that a future Liberal Government would use it to hobble any attempts to counter future pandemics as has been the case in Florida where Governor De Santis has attempted to ban mask mandates that mayors have sought to impose. But at least from a governance point of view, it makes sense to ensure health decisions are appropriately balanced against other interests.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 08, 2021, 01:30:00 pm
The Myocarditis issues Mantis raised are real, one Melb ER was clogged with vaccine side effect patients with imaginary and real symptons all wanting ECG's and Blood tests.
The point I was making was related to apportioning of blame to politicians as opposed to just openly discussing the real world side-effects of Pfizer, in context of it's almost complete absence of discussion in mainstream media.

Liberal, Labor or Monster Raving Looney, it's not their fault if Myocarditis cases do not appear in the official record.

It's most likely to do with the threat of willing litigation against hospitals and authorities by some pharma for wrongly apportioning blame in the absence of an established scientific link. This litigious behaviour of some pharmaceutical companies probably has more to do with the trend in discussions and reporting than the actual science. Note, some are making vaccine for immediate great profit, while others have waved profit in the short term to allow a chance for the pandemic to be controlled across all economies!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mantis on November 09, 2021, 03:38:54 am
LP. The point I am trying to make is that we the people have the rights of full disclosure. We have the rights to hear what happens in the real world including our country and state. News cane announced as a coincidence and people be told it is not proven fact that side effects are a result that contributes to serious health issues. Let us not paint over a potential issue like a lick of paint on a mould infested wall in a house to get a better sale result by hiding what might be a damp issue which could cause serious respiratory issues to a buyer. The media should be held accountable to present information to the people. The government should not hold them to ransom to keep their trap shut. We the people pay taxes, yes? These taxes pay politicians in some shape or form, yes? We elect people into power, yes? We do so so that they have a chance to voice what the people need and want in parliament, yes? They represent us, the people, yes? I might have agreement on one or two of these above.

Now more importantly, the government is doing what they feel is required by the best advice they find to protect the health and well-being of the people they represent, yes? They state this at state and federal levels, yes? So it is apparent that everything is working fine by the greater community. However if something should appear to be a slight concern to the health of the constituents that the government represent, should it be investigated? No, because it is a known side effect to a vaccine. Should at an absolute minimal level be looked at that with multiple vaccines available, that the age group, gender type, or any other reason be a reason to reconsider an alternative vaccine? No because they are trying to achieve the same result? To get more than 80% of the population fully vaccinated? Hang on a second and back the truck up. Now I am getting p1ssed off and excuse my very fluent French. Is the percentage of fully vaccinated people more important than what it may do if somehow a certain vaccine suits age groups better? No just take the jab as 40,000 people have been tested and these are the statistics. Wait a moment. We are nor operating in the real world. We are vaccinating millions of people in our state. The trend appears to vary from what initial test may have shown. Maybe we should offer an alternative and monitor those with any side effects and offer them our full support. No because the government is not responsible for side effects of any medical process.

Now, my blood pressure is rising. You political blood sucking leeches are really about to do my f@cking head in. I like many the people of Victoria have endured lockdowns. 5km for your place of residence as they state. I am sure as a dumb f@ck that is interperatated as stay home. Unless you meet 5 needs to do so. Out of this boundary distance. To buy food. Sure enough this old bastard needs to eat and I can buy food very close to my sh1t hole I live in. Medicine from a chemist. Fine, like vitamin pills or ventolin as there is nothing of interest there.  Kathy is a very hot young girl, with such a polite attitude that she could sell tampons and I would buy them just because she might get a commission for the sale. Back off guys I saw her first. I mean she is my daughters age and has such a nice personality that it is impossible to not buy more than you need just to talk to such a pleasant person.

Care giving. I really have no person who really cares for me and no person who needs my care. Then there is work. This is one I will come back to soon. I like many required a permit to work. Why? The reason was that it was 27km away from my sh1t hole (place of residence). Last but not least, to go to a doctor or be tested for the covid 19. I never see doctors because I haven’t had a sick day in almost 4 years and 6 months. 2 of those years during the peak of the virus. The virus that spreads at light speed as Dan Andrews claimed. It is contagious so please ignore that comment. So I followed all the rules, including that mask. The one that makes asthmatic people feel like they are suffocating. Hang on a second. That is me. Hey, I am someone in this story. So I have followed all rules and tried to do the 1.5m distancing everywhere I go for a long, long time.

Then it happened. I was told it was my choice. Jab or job. Get a jab or lose your job. Really? I have paid my taxes that pay those that I elected into power to RULE my life. Those that are there to represent my views, opinions and hear my voice. Like the old system of a shop steward of a company representing my union. The union I paid my hard earn dollars for. So why do I pay taxes? To have someone decided what is best for my life? To decide what will be best for my future? Have I not paid enough taxes in my life? Have I not paid for the wages of those I have elected? When will they finally listen to the constituents and remember that they represent the people. Be the voice of those that put them into power. Those that can vote another person to sit in their seat next time elections take place. I took the jab by the way, so don’t hate me as an anti anything or a conspiracy theorist. I need to eat. I need to live. So does my dog who I love to bits. He has been my rock over the last 8 months. More than family or friends. This whole issue is dividing family and friends. Dividing people that is causing turmoil and hate because people have different views. Separations in relationships. Hate between family members. Problems in the workplace. It is f@cked and don’t take my word for it.

Just look at it from perspective. You elected people into government. No crystal ball there to know what would happen. Would any other candidate have done better? Who knows. Just promise me one thing in life. Love those that matter. Stand by your opinion even if if might be wrong. Voice your opinion. Don’t be rude about it but don’t hesitate to be heard. I hear it is your given right. Just don’t get locked up in jail. I hear it isn’t a great place to sleep. On a personal note it isn’t, but I will always make you feel welcome.

Sorry but I can’t comment on the Pharma companies. Kickback theories will get me in trouble. Sorry LP.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2021, 10:52:16 am
You keep raising the possibility you'll be booted for expressing your feelings about the pandemic response, Mantis. I can't see how that would happen as you're just expressing honestly the emotional toll it has taken on you. Even those of us who may disagree with you about the governance issues wouldn't have a problem with that. I'm sure you have everyone's sympathy. Even though everyone would have been detrimentally affected by the pandemic and pandemic response to some extent, the effects and the emotional toll would fall on people unevenly.

An article that goes to the heart of the public benefit of vaccine mandates is:  How Easily Can Vaccinated People Spread COVID? (https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/11/vaccinated-spread-the-coronavirus/620650/), The Atlantic.

Quote
Vaccinated people spread the virus less overall because they are significantly less likely to get infected in the first place. In early September, the CDC found that six unvaccinated people were testing COVID-positive for every one vaccinated person. But there are plenty of reasons to be optimistic beyond that. Some recent research shows that even once they’ve been infected, the vaccinated are less likely to spread the coronavirus than the unvaccinated. “We’re back in this category of, Yeah, it can happen, but it seems to be a very rare event,” Ross Kedl, an immunology professor at the University of Colorado School of Medicine, told me.

He pointed me to two studies, neither of which has been peer-reviewed, to make his point. One shows that although transmission did occur among the vaccinated in Provincetown, those cases represent what Kedl calls a “very limited” proportion out of the total number of infections that occurred as part of that outbreak. In the other study, researchers in the United Kingdom found that the Pfizer and AstraZeneca vaccines consistently reduced transmission downstream of breakthrough cases. Much of the original Delta concern was based on something called “viral load”—the amount of virus a person carries while infected. But the researchers concluded that viral load is just one of many factors correlated to transmission reduction. In other words, even if vaccinated and unvaccinated people have the same viral load, it may not necessarily mean they are just as likely to spread the virus.

One reason for this may be that vaccinated people carry less infectious virus particles, as (not-yet-peer-reviewed) research from the Netherlands has recently illustrated. Although it’s widely assumed that virus particles carried by the vaccinated and unvaccinated are the same, basic principles of immunology actually predict otherwise, Kedl told me. Virus particles expelled by a vaccinated person are thought to be coated in antibodies—some of which are produced in the nose and mouth and are considered part of “mucosal” immunity—so “we can expect less of a downstream transmission,” he said.

Other researchers have come to similar conclusions. “The data are very clear that vaccinated individuals are less likely to spread the virus to others than unvaccinated individuals,” Christopher Byron Brooke, an assistant professor at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, told me in an email. A recent paper Brooke co-wrote showed that vaccinated people shed less virus, stop shedding virus sooner than the unvaccinated, and shed particles that are less infectious—supporting the notion that they’re less likely to transmit disease. One study from the Netherlands found a 63 percent reduction in household transmission among the vaccinated. That’s a testament to our vaccines: Homes are a “setting where the deck is heavily stacked towards transmission since members of a household are in extremely close contact for long stretches of time,” Brooke said. (However, another recent study didn’t find a statistically significant difference in household transmission between vaccinated and unvaccinated people.) Ultimately, Brooke said, you can certainly say the transmission risk for vaccinated people is lower, “but I don’t really know how you define ‘low.’”

It's best to be cautious about the use of preprint studies. Where they relate to a slow-moving scientific field, no one would even bother with them until they've been validated by peer review and/or their results have been reproduced. In a fast-moving, life-and-death pandemic, they are a bit of a necessary evil. But accepting them as evidence runs the risk of accepting fraudulent, faked or biased studies or simply those that have poor methodology. Those risks have been exemplified by the rash of studies touting Ivermectin which have been withdrawn, retracted, or dismissed. But the experts quoted and the preprint studies referenced do at least show that there may well be quantitative and qualitative differences in the way infected vaccinated people spread Covid compared to infected unvaccinated people. And this may well amplify the differences in the likelihood of vaccinated and unvaccinated people contracting Covid, which seems to be established quite clearly by real world evidence.

As the article also shows, just being vaccinated isn't enough. Being vaccinated doesn't mean we're back to 2019. The vaccinated need to be behave cautiously and social distancing and masking inside will continue to be recommended. MBB has on a number occasions slammed the Govt for allowing mass gatherings at big events like the Melbourne Cup with the sole apparent precaution being that they're limited to the double-vaccinated. I also worry about that, but I can see why the Government needs to loosen the reins at this point.    

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 09, 2021, 12:55:44 pm
@Mantis‍ I understand the stress the lockdowns and mandates have caused and I don't question those effects on individuals, they are what they are as @Mav‍ has pointed out. But it's clear to me from what you have written is that some of your concerns seem to far outweigh the risks, perhaps it is a miscalculation of the the risk of one action versus the risk of another action or even a miscalculation of the risk of inaction.

In the era of a pandemic, doing nothing is not safe, doing nothing kills more people than doing something, so those who have to make a decision have no choice, be they politicians or health officials. We can all debate what to do, what is good what is bad, what might have been better, but doing nothing is never an option!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 09, 2021, 12:58:01 pm
LP. The point I am trying to make is that we the people have the rights of full disclosure. We have the rights to hear what happens in the real world including our country and state. News cane announced as a coincidence and people be told it is not proven fact that side effects are a result that contributes to serious health issues. Let us not paint over a potential issue like a lick of paint on a mould infested wall in a house to get a better sale result by hiding what might be a damp issue which could cause serious respiratory issues to a buyer. The media should be held accountable to present information to the people. The government should not hold them to ransom to keep their trap shut. We the people pay taxes, yes? These taxes pay politicians in some shape or form, yes? We elect people into power, yes? We do so so that they have a chance to voice what the people need and want in parliament, yes? They represent us, the people, yes? I might have agreement on one or two of these above.

Now more importantly, the government is doing what they feel is required by the best advice they find to protect the health and well-being of the people they represent, yes? They state this at state and federal levels, yes? So it is apparent that everything is working fine by the greater community. However if something should appear to be a slight concern to the health of the constituents that the government represent, should it be investigated? No, because it is a known side effect to a vaccine. Should at an absolute minimal level be looked at that with multiple vaccines available, that the age group, gender type, or any other reason be a reason to reconsider an alternative vaccine? No because they are trying to achieve the same result? To get more than 80% of the population fully vaccinated? Hang on a second and back the truck up. Now I am getting p1ssed off and excuse my very fluent French. Is the percentage of fully vaccinated people more important than what it may do if somehow a certain vaccine suits age groups better? No just take the jab as 40,000 people have been tested and these are the statistics. Wait a moment. We are nor operating in the real world. We are vaccinating millions of people in our state. The trend appears to vary from what initial test may have shown. Maybe we should offer an alternative and monitor those with any side effects and offer them our full support. No because the government is not responsible for side effects of any medical process.

Now, my blood pressure is rising. You political blood sucking leeches are really about to do my f@cking head in. I like many the people of Victoria have endured lockdowns. 5km for your place of residence as they state. I am sure as a dumb f@ck that is interperatated as stay home. Unless you meet 5 needs to do so. Out of this boundary distance. To buy food. Sure enough this old bastard needs to eat and I can buy food very close to my sh1t hole I live in. Medicine from a chemist. Fine, like vitamin pills or ventolin as there is nothing of interest there.  Kathy is a very hot young girl, with such a polite attitude that she could sell tampons and I would buy them just because she might get a commission for the sale. Back off guys I saw her first. I mean she is my daughters age and has such a nice personality that it is impossible to not buy more than you need just to talk to such a pleasant person.

Care giving. I really have no person who really cares for me and no person who needs my care. Then there is work. This is one I will come back to soon. I like many required a permit to work. Why? The reason was that it was 27km away from my sh1t hole (place of residence). Last but not least, to go to a doctor or be tested for the covid 19. I never see doctors because I haven’t had a sick day in almost 4 years and 6 months. 2 of those years during the peak of the virus. The virus that spreads at light speed as Dan Andrews claimed. It is contagious so please ignore that comment. So I followed all the rules, including that mask. The one that makes asthmatic people feel like they are suffocating. Hang on a second. That is me. Hey, I am someone in this story. So I have followed all rules and tried to do the 1.5m distancing everywhere I go for a long, long time.

Then it happened. I was told it was my choice. Jab or job. Get a jab or lose your job. Really? I have paid my taxes that pay those that I elected into power to RULE my life. Those that are there to represent my views, opinions and hear my voice. Like the old system of a shop steward of a company representing my union. The union I paid my hard earn dollars for. So why do I pay taxes? To have someone decided what is best for my life? To decide what will be best for my future? Have I not paid enough taxes in my life? Have I not paid for the wages of those I have elected? When will they finally listen to the constituents and remember that they represent the people. Be the voice of those that put them into power. Those that can vote another person to sit in their seat next time elections take place. I took the jab by the way, so don’t hate me as an anti anything or a conspiracy theorist. I need to eat. I need to live. So does my dog who I love to bits. He has been my rock over the last 8 months. More than family or friends. This whole issue is dividing family and friends. Dividing people that is causing turmoil and hate because people have different views. Separations in relationships. Hate between family members. Problems in the workplace. It is f@cked and don’t take my word for it.

Just look at it from perspective. You elected people into government. No crystal ball there to know what would happen. Would any other candidate have done better? Who knows. Just promise me one thing in life. Love those that matter. Stand by your opinion even if if might be wrong. Voice your opinion. Don’t be rude about it but don’t hesitate to be heard. I hear it is your given right. Just don’t get locked up in jail. I hear it isn’t a great place to sleep. On a personal note it isn’t, but I will always make you feel welcome.

Sorry but I can’t comment on the Pharma companies. Kickback theories will get me in trouble. Sorry LP.

Mate, you have articulated so well what I have not been able to.

Who polices the policemen?

Thats the tricky part.  These guys are shooting from the hip and making laws.  I have stated a few times, that the government really needs to take people with them on this journey.

Because I speak to a few medical professionals, I do hear things that the average person does not.  From an ICU nurse, those people with COVID in our ICU's are the sickest people they have seen in 30 years of nursing.

Normally, you would go from a 7 day stint, to one day on the ward, and through rehab, discharge, and reviews via outpatients.

Instead, we have 3 weeks on machines which only save the person 50 percent of the time.

This isnt a comorbidity thing.  It seems a bit random (which is in itself scary).

Like you, I have complied, but to think that we have been given any real choices here is an illusion.  The governments have caused a few problems themselves.  Through  enforcing playground lockdowns, construction lockdowns, etc, when it likely didnt need to, and it became a hit them where it hurts move, rather than a public health move.

There are lots of problems with the pandemic handling from a governance perspective, but I do think they were on a hiding to nothing, and not much else would be different.

Beyond that, I know of what was a healthy 30+ year old, who has currently had myocarditis as a consequence of being vaccinated.  Not allowed to drive, or exercise.


The hardest part of all of this, is that we dont get a do over, without vaccination to see how we would have been effected.  The majority of our people checking in with patients in community pathways are going to be fine, irrespective of whether they are covid positive. 

Has the solution caused as many issues as the virus?  Difficult to quantify, but those who got their vaccine, and are currently in not a good way, will think so.

One thing that I keep coming back to, is how is it, that we get so impacted here in victoria, and yet somehow the rest of Aus is insulated from this?  They all had the chance for it to flare up, and yet it didnt.  even NSW, I am hearing and seeing their testing numbers, and I have stated this before, that we are not testing people in the right spots well enough, or often enough.  I work at multiple health services, and have only had to produce a negative test when symptomatic to return to work.  Ive been tested twice in almost 2 years now.

Meanwhile in NSW, you must produce a negative test to continue working.   How frequently?  Im not sure, but have a look at the variance in our testing numbers. 

To go with this, I had an Arthroscope on my knee back in August.  Had an overnight stay at a private hospital.  At the time, our covid numbers were low, and despite me working in a health service, there was absolutely 0 covid protocol to follow on day of procedure and overnight stay to follow aside from "are you symptomatic?".

On March 11 of 2020, I returned from Perth to Melbourne on a flight that had come from Asia via Perth to Melbourne.  On the 9th, I had taken a day trip to Rottnest Island, on a packed ferry full of overseas travellers.  The first case on our shores was Jan 25th for anyone who has been paying attention.  I returned to work on the 12th, went to the gym that night, and then developed a sinus infection on the 13th, and had 2 days of sick leave, and didnt meet the criteria for testing at that time, even though I had setup equipment in the covid testing clinic at a Hospital on the 12th.  I had to gown up and go in to do this.

I dont say this to discourage anything.   Just sharing my story.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 09, 2021, 01:11:07 pm
Has the solution caused as many issues as the virus?  Difficult to quantify, but those who got their vaccine, and are currently in not a good way, will think so.
Statistically that is not hard to quantify at all, the detrimental effects of COVID are orders of magnitude worse than the detrimental effects of the vaccines.

We are just learning now of the impacts of vaccine denial and scaremongering, tragically exposed in the rising numbers of young pregnant women rolling up to hospital COVID infected, and suffering long term effects to themselves and their babies because they have been frightened out of vaccination by social media scaremongering bastards!

The effects are not asymmetric, the scaremongers and their adjutants might not be adversely affected but that doesn't mean others won't. It seems otherwise healthy pregnant women are potentially the most vulnerable group, because not only are they at greater risk due to decreased immune response during pregnancy, they are responding for two or more!

So people trying to convince me the effects of lockdown and mandates has a huge detrimental effect on their wellbeing are doomed to fail, they aren't even in the same category as those who genuinely need our attention, care and respect. I'll always from an opinion in favour and bias towards a young mum who has been negatively impacted by Instagram, Twitter, FB and other Doomscrolling activities ahead of some privileged adult male complaining about a tough life!

Like pregnant women there will be thousands of similar genuine health care cases that sit well ahead of every anti-lockdown protestor, Dan hater and mask denier!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mantis on November 09, 2021, 01:42:12 pm
MAV. Very interesting reading. I rarely speak unless I have a serious passion about a topic and what you say has another interesting subject matter for me to bring up. I suddenly feel like I might become the noisy little blue arse fly that gets trapped between your bedroom window and the drapes at night. Bzzzzzz bouncing against the glass until you have had enough that you waste an entire can of Mortein spray to shut the bugger up to get some sleep. Back to two topics now. I read a few times some small concerns about particular vaccines that have been changed in certain countries based on what is being noticed in the real world. Not from previous tests but more so what government bodies have seen as tends after they expose the use on the population of the people. I think Moderna was one that was questioned for certain people and was not recommended for continuous use in certain people. May it be age or what particular reasons. I think age appears to be one of the reasons we have different vaccines. I assume they use different ways to do the spike protein process to have the human body build antibodies to help deal with SARS type natural immunity. If the government bodies of certain countries have changed how they advise immunisation then this is a start to better manage potential health implications to their communities. It must be case that under initial advisory steps are taken by manufacturers of medications and test performed to consider them safe to begin with. However things change in the real world and it is the duty of care for the government to monitor and make changes accordingly. Don’t rush to get the masses vaccinated as a form of a race to see which country leads the statistics on percentage of fully vaccinated people. This isn’t AFL, NFL, FIFA grand final, super bowl, World Cup etc bragging rights.

You are attempting to protect the community and serve your people and need to do it with some form of due diligence. Think once, twice and three times before you act and put systems in place. The old school rule of risk assessment and monitor the results regularly. Make changes as required. Put a stop to a program temporarily while further risk management gives you better confidence to help protect everyone. Is it a stupid method of better health and well-being of all? Maybe? Real life statistics and implementation of real risk management.

Onto my new dilemma. This blue arse fly will do your head in MAV, so I apologise in advance. Let me state you own a cafe in the city of Melbourne. You probably don’t but for the exercise let us say you do. As we get further along with the vaccinated population of 80% plus fully dosed people, you will need to have a certain allowed number of patrons come to consume food and beverages at your cafe by the end of this year 2021. Some indoor and some outside if the premises allow to do so. Assuming a 4 square metre rule, maybe 2 square metre rule. Maybe 1.5m social distancing. There will be some form of limitations. Without being certain we will still have something in place to avoid large numbers in an area to avoid large spread of covid. Yes? Sounds feasible. Not silly but feasible and helping the people to avoid community transmission. I might come to your cafe as I would like to help small business and would appreciate you allowing me to make a booking. With further benefits I may be allowed to line up on the pavement and wait for my seat when it is available. Oops, small problem potential as it might have people not follow a 1.5m distancing gap and it might be a tiny issue at worst. Maybe these distance issues may be lifted by then. Maybe yes, or no. No certainty yet. I for some reason decided not to come to your cafe Mav. I again apologise as I have made another appointment. May we leave your cafe for 2022. I booked tickets in advance for the Boxing Day test match day one. Dan has allowed 80,000 to possible talks of 85,000 people. I am over the moon. Wow. How exciting. I can stand shoulder to shoulder for a while before the gates open. Great. Just lovely. Then I get to sit next to so many sweaty, smelly, and potentially infected people from around 10am in the morning and ending around 6pm in the afternoon. Eight hours of no gap between myself and the sweaty bastards around me. Not including the time it took me to enter the gates to get into the stadium. These are very large numbers. Probably not including staff supplying food and drinks. Security staff. Police and quite possibly more. Probably similar to Melbourne Cup. As you have mentioned. Does money rise above the needs for safety and our potential health? Is there something I don’t see or understand? Just asking the question. I don’t see consistency. The Cup had 10,000 people allowed to attend. Then we move towards 80,000 plus. Will there be restrictions on small businesses that doesn’t follow the same theme? Don’t play us for fools if this becomes the case. We do have the mental capacity to see through things where money might be a driving force for settings. I think we do if this becomes the case. Blue arse fly over and out.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 09, 2021, 01:52:32 pm
Statistically that is not hard to quantify at all, the detrimental effects of COVID are orders of magnitude worse than the detrimental effects of the vaccines.

We are just learning now of the impacts of vaccine denial and scaremongering, tragically exposed in the rising numbers of young pregnant women rolling up to hospital COVID infected, and suffering long term effects to themselves and their babies because they have been frightened out of vaccination by social media scaremongering bastards!

The effects are not asymmetric, the scaremongers and their adjutants might not be adversely affected but that doesn't mean others won't. It seems otherwise healthy pregnant women are potentially the most vulnerable group, because not only are they at greater risk due to decreased immune response during pregnancy, they are responding for two or more!

So people trying to convince me the effects of lockdown and mandates has a huge detrimental effect on their wellbeing are doomed to fail, they aren't even in the same category as those who genuinely need our attention, care and respect. I'll always from an opinion in favour and bias towards a young mum who has been negatively impacted by Instagram, Twitter, FB and other Doomscrolling activities ahead of some privileged adult male complaining about a tough life!

Like pregnant women there will be thousands of similar genuine health care cases that sit well ahead of every anti-lockdown protestor, Dan hater and mask denier!

The NUM from our Emergency department out here disagrees with you.

The statistics that are quoted, need to be truly accurate, but if it doesnt suit the stategy what incentive is there for everything to be released accurately?  Whom polices the policemen?

The answer:  Themselves.  They are a law unto themselves, accountability is not a strong suit, its finger pointing, deflection, and numbers on a chalkboard.

You are way too dismissive of voices of true dissent, and are too busy looking at the conspiracy theorists, and lumping everyone into one category.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mantis on November 09, 2021, 02:00:15 pm
@Mantis‍ I understand the stress the lockdowns and mandates have caused and I don't question those effects on individuals, they are what they are as @Mav‍ has pointed out. But it's clear to me from what you have written is that some of your concerns seem to far outweigh the risks, perhaps it is a miscalculation of the the risk of one action versus the risk of another action or even a miscalculation of the risk of inaction.

In the era of a pandemic, doing nothing is not safe, doing nothing kills more people than doing something, so those who have to make a decision have no choice, be they politicians or health officials. We can all debate what to do, what is good what is bad, what might have been better, but doing nothing is never an option!

Just can’t give an argument to this. Doing nothing is just pure ignorance. Cannot be anything but behind this exact point. Maybe a better monitoring system and risk assessment plan. To adapt to prevention while allowing an ability to change. Multiple vaccines available. Change things if something appears to be a better option. Keep risks as low as possible. It might already exist. I hope so and hope they continue to improve the vaccine process. I took Astra by the way but only through research on potential effects. It appeared to give me less risk.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 09, 2021, 02:01:19 pm
The NUM from our Emergency department out here disagrees with you.
No, I'd assert the numbers agree perfectly with the statistics.

"We" are not some local special case, the numbers are global and universally applicable, the statistics expose that truth about infections versus vaccines and it is unequivocal. The numbers are infinitely more accurate than any subjective opinion or first-hand experience, experience which by relative scale to the global statistic is almost irrelevant!

It's laughable that individual persons try to paint themselves, their circumstance or location as special or privileged in the perspective of global cases!

We are not lucky, we are not special, we are not different, the pandemic follows the same rules here that it follows in New Delhi, London, Chile, Zimbabwe or Cairo!

PS; There are plenty policing the statistics, it is the easiest thing to police, the first ledgers to appear in this global pandemic were independent 3rd party statistics, and the idea that the statistics lie or have been deliberately politically misrepresented when they fail to present a preferred narrative is if anything the real global conspiracy. The statistics are so damming for the anti-vax and anti-mask narrative, the deniers tried their very best to adulterate free and open voluntary databases.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 09, 2021, 02:20:57 pm
No, I'd assert the numbers agree perfectly with the statistics.

"We" are not some local special case, the numbers are global and universally applicable, the statistics expose that truth about infections versus vaccines and it is unequivocal. The numbers are infinitely more accurate than any subjective opinion or first-hand experience, experience which by relative scale to the global statistic is almost irrelevant!

It's laughable that individual persons try to paint themselves, their circumstance or location as special or privileged in the perspective of global cases!

We are not lucky, we are not special, we are not different, the pandemic follows the same rules here that it follows in New Delhi, London, Chile, Zimbabwe or Cairo!

PS; There are plenty policing the statistics, it is the easiest thing to police, the first ledgers to appear in this global pandemic were independent 3rd party statistics, and the idea that the statistics lie or have been deliberately politically misrepresented when they fail to present a preferred narrative is if anything the real global conspiracy. The statistics are so damming for the anti-vax and anti-mask narrative, the deniers tried their very best to adulterate free and open voluntary databases.

Look, I and EB1, both have sources in Emergency departments seeing an increase in presentations of Myocarditis in an age group that ordinarily wouldnt see them.

I am not latching onto this as anything but a question mark.  You however, disimiss it far too easily by explaining it away.  All it means is that you are believing everything you are being told.  Thats fine.  It is after all how it works, but my question is, how can we believe all we are told, when we are not being told everything?

Knowing how statistical analysis works, is anyone even looking at that data?  Dont just dismiss it, you know what I am saying.  Open your mind to the idea, that perhaps the vaccine route, is a lesser of two evils, one we might not have had to follow if we were simply more open to the idea, that we need to keep COVID out.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 09, 2021, 02:25:42 pm
Look, I and EB1, both have sources in Emergency departments seeing an increase in presentations of Myocarditis in an age group that ordinarily wouldnt see them.

I am not latching onto this as anything but a question mark.  You however, disimiss it far too easily by explaining it away.  All it means is that you are believing everything you are being told.  Thats fine.  It is after all how it works, but my question is, how can we believe all we are told, when we are not being told everything?
Anyone here on this forum knows that I have written multiple times that the side-effects of Pfizer are real and equal to those of AZ, with myocarditis or pericarditis being the major side effects of Pfizer.

I've pretty much been the only regular poster here making that claim against Pfizer, the exact opposite of your accusation against me!

What I completely reject is that the magnitude of the global side-effects of all vaccines in anyway approaches the magnitude of the global effects of Sars-CoV-2. The assertion the side-effects of vaccine are equal or comparable to COVID is laughable!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on November 09, 2021, 02:29:36 pm
The NUM from our Emergency department out here disagrees with you.

The statistics that are quoted, need to be truly accurate, but if it doesnt suit the stategy what incentive is there for everything to be released accurately?  Whom polices the policemen?

The answer:  Themselves.  They are a law unto themselves, accountability is not a strong suit, its finger pointing, deflection, and numbers on a chalkboard.

You are way too dismissive of voices of true dissent, and are too busy looking at the conspiracy theorists, and lumping everyone into one category.



In a global pandemic, whatever the differences are in the motivations from the voices of true dissent and conspiracy theorists, the message is the same: do not get the jab!

My wife is a chronic asthmatic. If she were to catch Covid, do you think she would feel happier if it were to have been caught from a true dissenter rather than a conspiracy theorist?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 09, 2021, 02:33:29 pm
My wife is a chronic asthmatic. If she were to catch Covid, do you think she would feel happier if it were to have been caught from a true dissenter rather than a conspiracy theorist?
And there will be many cases like your wife, thousands suffering or living in fear in silence, far more than all the conspiracy theorists, deniers or dissenters combined!

While in the meantime grown men claiming to be upholding our rights dress up like elderly women and charge at police lines because they can't go to the pub for a piss up!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2021, 02:34:26 pm
Mantis, I opened up this thread intending to post about the Atlantic article but when I saw your post I could hardly have done so without commenting on your post. So the Atlantic article wasn't a can of Mortein, even if the juxtaposition might suggest the contrary. :)

For sure, if you reckon the Andrew Govt should be voted out, cast your vote that way. Although I'm a rusted on ALP voter, I'm not an ALP member and couldn't be bothered trying to change others' voting intentions, if that were even possible. One thing that irks me, though, is the notion that pandemic restrictions and mandates are tyrannical and anti-democratic when they are in fact implemented by democratically-elected governments. That's the point of elections. Conservatives are all law & order when conservative governments are elected: elections have consequences, if you don't like the laws, go back where you (or your ancestors) came from. But the moment a Labor Government comes in, suddenly the Government has no right to interfere with individual freedoms irrespective of the public interest, therefore the laws should be flouted as a moral crusade.   

This sort of attitude is on full display in the US with attempts to undermine the voting process, the rise of "sovereign rights", and the undermining of constitutional rights such as the right to abortion. An interesting article about Christian Dominionists paints a troubling picture of an anti-democratic strain of thought that has been influential in the rightwing in the US: How extremist Christian theology is driving the right-wing assault on democracy (https://www.salon.com/2021/10/31/how-extremist-christian-theology-is-driving-the-right-wing-on-democracy/), Salon. And there are echoes of that thinking apparent over here too.

The issue of consistency in pandemic rules is certainly a minefield. When the Government has tried to be consistent by cracking down on parents taking advantage of playgrounds to enjoy picnics with friends when otherwise that wasn't permitted, it was pilloried with the idea being that this should have been ignored. But when big events happen, people get out the fine tooth combs to tease out inconsistencies with other entertainment venues.

Firstly, consistency is overrated. I remember listening to Fatprick Smith telling KB that the AFL's new rules to protect the head against bumps were desirable, but the AFL should act consistently when it came to marking situations. He believed a player who raised his knee or otherwise threw himself into a pack should be rubbed out if he made contact with the head of another player. If you live your life being a slave to consistency, then it will be a mess. There are nuances and differences between situations. In the big event example, opening them up to double-vaxxed people drives vaccinations and that's in the public interest. As those events are generally more secure than your average cafe, it's easier to ensure that only the double-vaxxed gain entry. The small mom & pop cafe will find it hard to enforce those rules as they don't have turnstiles protected by security with police in attendance to quell disturbances. Anti-vaxxers find it harder to make an impact at those events than they do at the local cafe. If you want to make an impact on the mood of the State by providing bread and circuses, this is the way to go. I don't like it particularly and I wouldn't want to go to those events but I can see their utility in psychological terms. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 09, 2021, 02:37:57 pm
The small mom & pop cafe will find it hard to enforce those rules as they don't have turnstiles protected by security with police in attendance to quell disturbances.
Exactly.

The protestors are not the brave defenders of the weak and oppressed that they claim to be, but are the jackals feeding on the outliers and isolated fringes of the herd. It is utterly gutless behaviour!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 09, 2021, 02:40:08 pm
And no-one appears to notice how the global numbers have dropped ... dear me.

But the NT chief minister and that arse McGowan squeal like stuck pigs at every chance they get to make political capital. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 09, 2021, 02:43:51 pm
The issue of consistency in pandemic rules is certainly a minefield. When the Government has tried to be consistent by cracking down on parents taking advantage of playgrounds to enjoy picnics with friends when otherwise that wasn't permitted, it was pilloried with the idea being that this should have been ignored. But when big events happen, people get out the fine tooth combs to tease out inconsistencies with other entertainment venues.
I had a discussion along similar lines just the other day, we looked at how Burythemall had used police and health officials to target specific demographics, it would have been impossible to do the same here in Victoria without being slammed as a racist! Burythemall got away with it because in the zones that concentrated focus was on a lot of non-Australians, Pacific Islanders and Kiwis or 457 workers, and because she had the support of a Federal government!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 09, 2021, 02:44:54 pm
But the NT chief minister and that arse McGowan squeal like stuck pigs at every chance they get to make political capital.
Yet nobody criticising those governments seems to notice the very low vaccination rates in those regions, or associate it as a cause to retain restrictions until vaccination rates climb!

If they let COVID into indigenous outposts do you think they would be lauded for opening the states to preserve "privilege white freedom"? They are on a hiding to nothing needing to protect a minority from another minority!

Again COVID doesn't discriminate, you can't wait it out, it will get to where you are eventually it is just a matter of when!

One day there will be one last unvaccinated person who never got COVID, and he'll proudly state "I told you so", without any thanks for the efforts! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on November 09, 2021, 02:49:30 pm
.....................................

This sort of attitude is on full display in the US with attempts to undermine the voting process, the rise of "sovereign rights", and the undermining of constitutional rights such as the right to abortion. An interesting article about Christian Dominionists paints a troubling picture of an anti-democratic strain of thought that has been influential in the rightwing in the US: How extremist Christian theology is driving the right-wing assault on democracy (https://www.salon.com/2021/10/31/how-extremist-christian-theology-is-driving-the-right-wing-on-democracy/), Salon. And there are echoes of that thinking apparent over here too.
..........................

This has been building for a long time. The Christian Right in the US are very powerful and very wealthy. They have established their owns schools, universities, politicians, wealthy donors, media outlets etc. We should be very afraid. They mean business, and they're not the types that can reason all that well.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 09, 2021, 02:51:54 pm
This has been building for a long time. The Christian Right in the US are very powerful and very wealthy. They have established their owns schools, universities, politicians, wealthy donors, media outlets etc. We should be very afraid. They mean business, and they're not the types that can reason all that well.
I'm not sure we have to consign ourselves to watching this from far anymore! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2021, 02:52:14 pm
Authoritarians don't need to reason. Might is right, and when you have God on your side you're as mighty as they come.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 09, 2021, 02:53:53 pm
Authoritarians don't need to reason. Might is right, and when you have God on your side you're as mighty as they come.
Religion is a bit different, if they die in ICU it is God's will, if they survive it is God's will, ................ you can't argue with that because you have no influence over God's will!

Combine that with Authoritarian or should we say, Autocracy, and things get very bad very quickly. What could possibly be worse, ......... putting a narcissistic psychopath in the big chair? Where could that possibly happen? ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 09, 2021, 03:03:08 pm
Yet nobody criticising those governments seems to notice the very low vaccination rates in those regions, or associate it as a cause to retain restrictions until vaccination rates climb!

Quite aware of that LP.  In fact, very.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on November 09, 2021, 03:14:18 pm
One thing that I keep coming back to, is how is it, that we get so impacted here in victoria, and yet somehow the rest of Aus is insulated from this?  They all had the chance for it to flare up, and yet it didnt.  even NSW, I am hearing and seeing their testing numbers, and I have stated this before, that we are not testing people in the right spots well enough, or often enough. 

When you have each state in charge of themselves, and making up their own rules, there will always be one state that is the harshest, and one state which is the most lenient. Doesn't matter how far each way they are, it will always be the case.

As it happens, we are in victoria, the harshest hit. What does all that mean? Not much really.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 09, 2021, 03:22:35 pm
As it happens, we are in victoria, the harshest hit. What does all that mean? Not much really.
Some of it is down to circumstances, for example there is a global trend that further you are away from the equator the outcome will be different, the thought being regional weather and humidity plays a role. Other differences are important too, like the timing of the outbreaks versus the season, and the general social demographic. The timing of the availability of vaccines relative to the outbreaks, there are lots of applicable factors.

Also no doubt there are some political issues, like the difference in Federal support to Liberal or Labor states, or the willingness of each state to accept military interventions and co-ordination.

There are many such local effects, and this is where the generalisations do not apply, but even so local critics cannot escape the global averages.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on November 09, 2021, 03:24:16 pm
Some of it is down to circumstances, for example there is a global trend that further you are away from the equator the outcome will be different. Other differences are important too, like the timing of the outbreaks versus the seasons.

Also no doubt there are some political issues, like the difference in Federal support, or the willingness of the state to accept military interventions and co-ordination.

There are many such local effects, and this is where the generalisations do not apply, but even so local critics cannot escape the global averages.

There are plenty of reasons for it, some geographical, some political, some social....but in the end, it still doesn't mean much.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 09, 2021, 03:27:21 pm
There are plenty of reasons for it, some geographical, some political, some social....but in the end, it still doesn't mean much.
Agreed, which is why I always prefer global data over regional experience.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on November 09, 2021, 03:53:26 pm
I think we just have to be a little careful with some of the generalisations.
I'd hazard a guess that the majority of LNP voting/Right wing leaning/Christian folk in NSW have been double jabbed.
Other states will no doubt follow suit...there's nothing like an outbreak to bump the vaccination rate.

I have two friends who are lay preachers (Uniting church) and they're amongst the most fervent supporters of vaccination, so it's not a religious thing either. Among friends and family the majority of practicing religious folk have had at least one dose.

We're talking a miniscule amount of actual dissenters (less than 7% and decreasing in NSW) who are refusing to be vaccinated.
Add a bit more for those for whom vaccination is not recommended.
Half or more non-vaxxed have genuine (in their minds) reasons for doing so, nothing to do with their political leanings.
Many of those may get sick and be hospitalised...and gain a natural immunity (and likely be converted as they experience the full effects of the disease.)

I suspect we're arguing a position that has already been weighed, measured and found completely acceptable to the majority of Australians.
They're happy to be vaccinated.

Full disclosure, rubbery figures over the top restrictions....there may be elements of all that, but in any war the first casualty is truth and the worst possible time to try and sort that out is in the middle of the battle where the focus should be on the enemy...the disease.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 09, 2021, 04:49:04 pm
Most of the cafes my wife and I have been attending dont bother with checking your vaccination status, a couple have said they just dont have time or initially spent too much time trying to instruct some folk how to either display the status or link their medicare to their MyGov. A lot of older folk dont have a clue about technology and rely on their children or others to help them out and as one cafe owner said to me that the Government should provide a service at Centrelink or at the local council where folk who are not across the technology can receive instruction or get a print out of their vaccination status to show on entry.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2021, 05:37:55 pm
People unvaccinated 'by choice' in Singapore will no longer get free COVID-19 treatment, (https://www.sbs.com.au/news/people-unvaccinated-by-choice-in-singapore-will-no-longer-get-free-covid-19-treatment/be67ba2d-8cba-4021-ba6d-25b28154d31c) sbs.news

Quote
The Singaporean government has said unvaccinated people "disproportionately contribute" to the strain on the country's healthcare resources.

Harsh, but fair. Getting people to put their money where their mouths are would have been a good policy in Australia (after giving the unvaccinated the opportunity to back down). As EB & others have noted, ICU stays are much longer for Covid than other causes and many of the drugs that are now available to treat infections are costly. Even better would have been a quota system for the unvaccinated so that Covid care wouldn't dominate other vital services. 

The Singaporean solution is pretty much what happens in Victoria if you don't register a car and end up causing an accident which requires the TAC to pay for medical expenses or lost wages. The TAC will pay out but then will sue to recover those payments from you. The unvaccinated would be like gamblers putting their houses on the roll of the dice. If you throw craps, you lose your house. That's freedom for you.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 09, 2021, 05:40:43 pm
A lot of older folk dont have a clue about technology and rely on their children or others to help them out

And that's just going to get worse.  They just didn't grow up with PCs and Microsoft never bothered with a stripped down release that catered just for their needs.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2021, 05:51:23 pm
I think we just have to be a little careful with some of the generalisations.
I'd hazard a guess that the majority of LNP voting/Right wing leaning/Christian folk in NSW have been double jabbed.
Lods, my comment was about Christian Dominionists and the article details their beliefs. That term doesn't simply embrace all  Christians or even all conservative Christians. Just as importantly, it isn't confined to the clergy. It certainly can apply to far right politicians and activists. Broadly speaking, it refers to those who believe that only laws derived from God are valid (and welfare programs and human rights legislation are not derived from God) and Christians are given dominion over the resources of the world to the exclusion of non-believers. If a "lesser magistrate" directs, laws of men can be ignored, even if that involves murder. They really desire a fundamentalist theocracy. I'm thinking that the majority of right-wing leaning Christian folk in NSW wouldn't subscribe to that sort of religious extremism.

As the article points out, the ultimate aim of the Christian Dominionists, a theocratic State, might be unachievable, but they have influenced far-right thinking and have given moral justification to odious beliefs (e.g. racism and a benevolent view of slavery).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on November 09, 2021, 06:12:44 pm
And that's just going to get worse.  They just didn't grow up with PCs and Microsoft never bothered with a stripped down release that catered just for their needs.
I'm pretty good with the technology side of things (doing some computer programming in a past life) and even i struggled.
I got stuck in an endless loop of verification and linking that simply wouldn't work with MyGOV and service victoria app.
Ultimately i had to download a completely different app to get it to work, but that was found by sheer luck rather than any info i could find online.

I pity some of the older folks who wouldn't even know what an app store is.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 09, 2021, 07:33:45 pm
I'm pretty good with the technology side of things (doing some computer programming in a past life) and even i struggled.
I got stuck in an endless loop of verification and linking that simply wouldn't work with MyGOV and service victoria app.
Ultimately i had to download a completely different app to get it to work, but that was found by sheer luck rather than any info i could find online.

I pity some of the older folks who wouldn't even know what an app store is.

I had a similar problem but managed to resolve it without seeking help from a young person.  I channeled the IT Crew  :)

It's just as well that I did because every cafe/restaurant we've been to has insisted on sighting our vaccination certificates.  They all said that they're getting 100% compliance and no-one arcing up.

You're right about older folk.  There should be a service to help folk get their vaccination certificate and an analog alternative for folk who don't do digital.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on November 09, 2021, 08:25:19 pm
My father in law doesn't even have a mobile - he's 84- let alone a smart phone.  He carries around a print out which seems to satisfy staff.

My parents don't have individual email addresses, so can't both register for My Gov.  Dad also refuses to update his phone, so his phone isn't new enough to register anyway.  Don't know what he is doing to get into places.  Mum by default is the same!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 09, 2021, 08:31:58 pm
But they soldier on ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on November 09, 2021, 08:36:12 pm
I also carry a paper print out - works fine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on November 09, 2021, 08:40:38 pm
Yes, they do, Cap.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: bratblue on November 09, 2021, 09:26:18 pm
I was talking to my mates Mrs last night who's an ICU specialist at a big Melb hospital. Some of the things she said was that all of her covid patients are unvaxxed. Most have other health problems like obesity diabeties smokers etc. They aren't dying like they used to with better treatments but they will be ruined for life anyway. It takes eleven people to turn them over which happens twice a day. They are all in a coma and on ventilators. Their families almost always go and get vaxxed when they see how sick there loved ones are. The nurses and docs are getting totally worn out and are sick of having to wear all the stuff they need to work in a covid ward. It costs 4000 a day per patient and most stay for a long time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on November 09, 2021, 09:27:44 pm
Sorry - tangent, which I'm good at.

My FIL owned a shop.  When he retired nearly 10 years ago, the most current technology he had was the old credit card 'click-clack' machine.  Didn't even have a cash register.  These newfangled phone things don't work for him.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 09, 2021, 09:27:50 pm
In a global pandemic, whatever the differences are in the motivations from the voices of true dissent and conspiracy theorists, the message is the same: do not get the jab!

My wife is a chronic asthmatic. If she were to catch Covid, do you think she would feel happier if it were to have been caught from a true dissenter rather than a conspiracy theorist?



She's probably going to be ok. 

Particularly if she got vaccinated.

Thats the reality.

The fit and healthy thirty something year olds or the teenage girls ive heard of having myocarditis might just have long lasting effects to protect her in the odd chance she fell to the wrong end of break through infection.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myocarditis/symptoms-causes/syc-20352539

https://www.myocarditisfoundation.org/about-myocarditis/

There is a lot of sensationalism regarding this.  Im double vaxxed have been for almost 6 months.

Plenty of examples ive heard of in the exact demographic of people least effected by covid.

16 year olds going to hospital two days after being vaccinated with heart issues isn't what I would call playing the percentages.

Here is the issue.  Some of us are so blinded by protecting those of us whom we know are vulnerable (who can be protected by vaccination) yet are unnecessarily exposing fit healthy and well people to a vaccine that IS causing a heart conditions to occur in young people.

Thats ok, they should get myocarditis at 16. 

Oh, I'm not saying dont get the jab.  I'm saying that perhaps the jab is a stupid idea for people not at risk.

But we've committed to that above all else. Rightly or wrongly.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 09, 2021, 09:36:05 pm
Myocarditis and / or pericarditis are also both effects of COVID, as is thrombosis, facts conveniently overlooked by vaccine naysayers.

The scientists now know TTS happens in people with APS, a condition which also more than doubles their risk of COVID death.

But who cares, let them get COVID at some random time in some random place with unknown treatment availability, perhaps so they can hide out for a few days as it's just a cold, rather than vaccinate them at a known time and place to be monitored by specialists from the earliest possible stages.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 09, 2021, 10:13:42 pm
Must say with EB and Thry posts, it's great to get the inside running on all perspectives to this bloody frightening pandemic.     

I read them all of course, regardless of member            
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 09, 2021, 11:27:49 pm
Must say with EB and Thry posts, it's great to get the inside running on all perspectives to this bloody frightening pandemic.     

I read them all of course, regardless of member            
Cap, I just relay some of the stuff I get told, plenty of info I can't relay as well due to confidentiality and trust from those providing the info. Thry's info and observations are always accurate and delivered with a balanced perspective..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 10, 2021, 02:13:02 am
I just got back from driving one of my grandsons home from hospital.  His mouth and throat were swollen and he had difficulty breathing.  My daughter, who is a health worker, thought it was probably a reaction to a virus he has had for a couple of days (COVID test was negative) and called an ambulance.  The ambulance arrived within 10 minutes, he was in the emergency department 10 minutes later and was seen by a doctor immediately.

The doctor confirmed my daughter's "diagnosis" and gave the young fellow antihistamines and steroids.  They kept him under observation for a couple of hours and I drove him back home at about 0030, tired and a little wobbly but much better.

Mrs DJC was in ICU recently after a bad reaction to post-operative drugs.  Most of the ICU beds were empty and there were 5 or 6 ICU nurses providing Mrs DJC with excellent care.  They often had time for a chat and most were concerned about the potential for their ICU to be overwhelmed if vaccination rates weren't high enough.

Of course, both of the above were in Geelong, aka Sleepy Hollow.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mantis on November 10, 2021, 03:11:48 am
Here is an interesting read. Something that might show some form of accountability. I hope it isn’t a link others have attached. I always have trouble with attached links.

https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-vaccine-claims-scheme?fbclid=IwAR1MkzDvqf-KXUg7Fwm8SEZ5FDwZbwmJVNFw6zy3H8rxHquAAjZv2hLEMlA

If this works at least it might guide people to look in the right direction if something isn’t right and you need to follow up on a side effect. I hope nobody needs to feel any real side effects of any kind. Let me know if this site is genuine and if my attempt to put a link in place works. It appears to be quite recent. Do the walls have ears and eyes on this forum?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on November 10, 2021, 08:05:23 am
She's probably going to be ok. 

Particularly if she got vaccinated.

Thats the reality.




Thry, my wife and I have  been double vaccinated since July and expect to get a booster shot late January.

Just as an aside, my immuno-compromised brother and his wife moved from Sydney to Byron Bay a fortnight ago to live close to their adult children.  So far he has been unable to find a doctor who is not into "wellness" and natural remedies.

Last night he told me the local schools are having trouble remaining open as up to 40 percent of the teachers are refusing to be vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 10, 2021, 08:22:38 am
Here is an interesting read. Something that might show some form of accountability. I hope it isn’t a link others have attached. I always have trouble with attached links.

https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-vaccine-claims-scheme?fbclid=IwAR1MkzDvqf-KXUg7Fwm8SEZ5FDwZbwmJVNFw6zy3H8rxHquAAjZv2hLEMlA

If this works at least it might guide people to look in the right direction if something isn’t right and you need to follow up on a side effect. I hope nobody needs to feel any real side effects of any kind. Let me know if this site is genuine and if my attempt to put a link in place works. It appears to be quite recent. Do the walls have ears and eyes on this forum?
The scheme was announced quite a while back, the website lags a bit(months).

Governments and bureaucrats move so slowly the pandemic will probably be over before the first claim is ever processed! ;)

On this slow progress, some friends got smashed in the second storm that went through SE-Melbourne a fortnight back, now almost two weeks without power, no compo for the 1st week as it only kicks in second week. Insurers telling them it will be weeks or months before assessment and claim processing. That fits with my experience a few months back when we got smashed by a storm, insurers told us there was a 4 month waiting list as they are still processing people in Gippsland from the 2019 fires! So it is not always bureaucracy that moves slowly, so much for privatisation!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 10, 2021, 09:39:55 am
God bless America.
(https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/nearly-eight-in-ten-believe-or-are-unsure-about-at-least-one-common-falsehood-about-covid-19-or-the-vaccine-640x747.png)
Ironic eh, over there they think COVID deaths are exaggerated, here we think vaccine side-effects are understated, there seems to be a unifying bias in those subjective opinions,.

For the life of me I can't make out what it is! :-\
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 10, 2021, 10:22:55 am
You just knew this was coming, ultimately is it good or bad, what about here in OZ?

https://www.theage.com.au/world/asia/singapore-will-stop-free-treatment-of-unvaccinated-covid-patients-20211109-p597d3.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 10, 2021, 10:28:35 am
You just knew this was coming, ultimately is it good or bad, what about here in OZ?

https://www.theage.com.au/world/asia/singapore-will-stop-free-treatment-of-unvaccinated-covid-patients-20211109-p597d3.html


Didn't they just execute a mentally challenged small time drug dealer?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 10, 2021, 11:12:32 am
Thry, my wife and I have  been double vaccinated since July and expect to get a booster shot late January.

Just as an aside, my immuno-compromised brother and his wife moved from Sydney to Byron Bay a fortnight ago to live close to their adult children.  So far he has been unable to find a doctor who is not into "wellness" and natural remedies.

Last night he told me the local schools are having trouble remaining open as up to 40 percent of the teachers are refusing to be vaccinated.

I understand.  This is a very delicate, and difficult thing for people.

No one wants to cause harm to anyone else, right?

So, when I hear that my colleagues 16 year old daughter has multiple class mates who have ended up in an Emergency Department with heart rates well over healthy levels, on the back end of receiving a vaccine, and our Triage Managers son who is in his 30's was admitted and is no longer able to drive a car because of myocarditis, and is now on a treatment plan for that and inelligible for a second vaccine, then what?

Sure.  This is anecdotal.  My anecdotal account of the pandemic doesn't quite measure up to the threat most people pin to COVID either, but, I am not stupid enough to believe that this is anything but my anecdotal view, when you hear it backed up by others, it changes things, and does raise some concerns and questions. 

We also need to be mindful that being fully transparent about vaccine side effects is a hinderance to "getting back to normal" because it will cause hesitancy in those who are truly unsure what they should do.  Not just here, but globally.  No one wants to hear that the vaccines aren't perfectly safe when they have been administered on a scale globally the way they have.  Not when the companies producing these things have basically signed away the liability to the individual receiving.  Not when people are starting to resume normal life, economies of scale are starting to return to normal, the government gets to avoid funding hospital beds for covid patients to quote yourself to the tune of $4000 a day, to administer a relatively cheap vaccine to make our covid problem dissapear and resume normality.

Thing is, are they just filling everyone with a false sense of security?

I don't have these answers.  When I hear first hand accounts of vaccine side effects, vs a lack of first hand of covid positives, it starts to make one a bit concerned that they are being hoodwinked.  When you work in and among front liners (I just completed setup of an area for the COVID community pathways call centre and have spoken to those staffing it and what they are seeing in the community of covid positives that arent in hospital or perhaps not even needing treatment), it makes it even harder to believe, but not impossible.  So we come to forums like this, and get told to get back into our boxes and stop asking questions.  I still think vaccination is the right thing to do, but maybe the risk assessments surrounding who gets and who shouldn't is the part that needs to be done better?


The one thing I did before I got vaccinated, is understand, that the only thing I know, is that I know nothing, it then becomes a matter of what and whom do you believe.  Sure, you can believe everyone that tells you vaccination is the key to beating covid.  yes, but the cane toad was once the answer to a different issue and it was backed by science, and has created its own problem.  Will the vaccine do similar?  I have no choice but to believe the health professionals, but when the counter argument is an argument that literally suits nobody then what?

Understand something.  When the world is returning to normal, and we still have people asking questions, odds are its because those questions have some validity to them.  Not just "dissenters" or "conspiracy theorists" or anti vaxxers.  When you see people attacking the validity of the question, without any real investigation or reasoning, then that in itself is a warning sign worth paying attention to.

https://pestsmart.org.au/toolkit-resource/how-did-the-cane-toad-arrive-in-australia/





Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 10, 2021, 11:31:46 am
Didn't they just execute a mentally challenged small time drug dealer?
They don't discriminate, wealth or poverty, health or illness is no excuse, if you deal drugs on the Asian Peninsula, Thailand, Malaysia or Indonesia, you're gone!

That is how the law should be or else you end up with a wealth based outcomes like the USA, where it comes down to the lawyer you can afford!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 10, 2021, 07:25:18 pm
https://au.yahoo.com/news/wont-be-happening-brisbane-cafe-owner-vows-to-defy-covid-orders-063221323.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 10, 2021, 07:29:18 pm
The labour governments are tearing this country apart, I can't see myself ever voting for them again.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 10, 2021, 08:22:00 pm
https://au.yahoo.com/news/wont-be-happening-brisbane-cafe-owner-vows-to-defy-covid-orders-063221323.html

Very interesting.

As a vaccinated person, I dont have an issue either way, but can you imagine the litigation that comes in, if someone contracts COVID at this premises? 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 10, 2021, 10:37:28 pm
Very interesting.

As a vaccinated person, I dont have an issue either way, but can you imagine the litigation that comes in, if someone contracts COVID at this premises? 
As you know you can still carry Covid(reduced load) if you are vaxxed and infect other vaxxed/unvaxxed customers and I guess some customers might have medical exemptions but clearly the owner doesnt care and wants his coin rather than following the rules. Even in Victoria mask wearing seems optional for some people indoors and social distancing seems to have waned as well especially in supermarkets where you get customers breathing down your neck at the checkout who wont stick to their spot on the ground and want to rush you through.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 10, 2021, 10:39:56 pm
https://au.yahoo.com/news/chinas-major-covid-dilemma-as-rest-of-the-world-opens-up-105306690.html

Hope Dan doesnt read this....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 10, 2021, 10:52:33 pm
I spoke to a guy in his 20's who just got his second jab a week ago.

Now had ongoing heart symptoms but has been cleared by his doctor.

Doesn't want his booster when its time.

Understandable. 

Apparently his doctor has seen it in 20 to 25% of his patients.

I told him to follow his doctor's orders and if having some heart issues get to hospital rather than dilly dally or wait.  People are happy to waste an ED'S time at the best of times, so having heart issues should see you go in.

Is anyone else coming across this? 

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 10, 2021, 11:17:33 pm
I spoke to a guy in his 20's who just got his second jab a week ago.

Now had ongoing heart symptoms but has been cleared by his doctor.

Doesn't want his booster when its time.

Understandable. 

Apparently his doctor has seen it in 20 to 25% of his patients.

I told him to follow his doctor's orders and if having some heart issues get to hospital rather than dilly dally or wait.  People are happy to waste an ED'S time at the best of times, so having heart issues should see you go in.

Is anyone else coming across this? 


Had one family member who had Pfizer come down with chest pains and was taken to hospital by ambulance.
30 year old fit police officer who looks after himself and he was very uncomfortable and stayed in hospital for a couple of days.
As you say Chest Pains jumps you to the top of the waiting list because it can also be heart trouble etc that is not vaccine induced and everyone gets the ECG's, blood tests etc to make sure. Had my Son in law come down with a lump on his collarbone and rash after his initial dose of Moderna, again a very fit strong young bloke in his early 30s. Due for his second dose this Friday and still has the lump, had tests including a ultrasound and it was diagnosed as a vaccine induced Lipoma. It has gone down a little but he is concerned it might flair up again with the next dose.
Boosters I think will be problematic for people who have had  more serious issues and I think LP's idea of a different vaccine to the initial type you had might be a better way to go.
A couple of the ER's I get info about have seen a rise in patients attending for vaccine side effect issues, chest pains of course even mild do create anxiety which amplifies the symptoms and the majority are usually cleared quickly to go home after they have a normal ECG, blood test but they do clog up ER's and its usually the ones with pre existing conditions that require more treatment.
For sure its the male in that late 20's early 30s that seem to be affected more from what I hear..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 10, 2021, 11:22:07 pm
Nothing first, second or nth hand, not even any suggestions of any kids in our school or footy teams having any side effects (though there was 1 kid with a positive Covid test). That doesn't undermine what you've been told, I hasten to add. Maybe I'm a mushroom (in my experience, kids don't volunteer much info about anything). 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on November 11, 2021, 12:15:23 am
They don't discriminate, wealth or poverty, health or illness is no excuse, if you deal drugs on the Asian Peninsula, Thailand, Malaysia or Indonesia, you're gone!

That is how the law should be or else you end up with a wealth based outcomes like the USA, where it comes down to the lawyer you can afford!

Problem is that especially in Thailand money talks AND allows one to walk… google Red Bull heir.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 11, 2021, 06:59:27 am
Problem is that especially in Thailand money talks AND allows one to walk… google Red Bull heir.

My God ... he got away with that?  Unbelievable.  But you're right, corruption runs deep over there.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 11, 2021, 08:06:08 am
Problem is that especially in Thailand money talks AND allows one to walk… google Red Bull heir.
True, but that is more about corruption and that is everywhere. It's not like some countries where you can legally pay your way out of a criminal offense by offering a poor victim some compensation.

In the Red Bull case they illegally smuggled him out of Thailand then by hook or crook they had the charges dropped, but I'm not sure that means he can go back there and not face charges for fleeing the country, he is effectively in exile like that kid who killed the people in Melbourne.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 11, 2021, 09:02:05 am
like that kid who killed the people in Melburne.

Punett Puneet is likely to be extradited. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 11, 2021, 09:43:31 am
Punett Puneet is likely to be extradited.
When it happens it happens, those charges have not been dropped which is quite a bit different to the Red Bull heir. Not that I'm defending the Red Bull heir because he's guilty as sin, but corruption is what corruption does. btw., I do believe that the heir's family offered the police officer some financial recompense, I'm not sure what happened.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 11, 2021, 11:49:32 am
At least he learnt a few things while in Australia. He blended the Christopher Skase and Alan Bond fakery in his attempt to con the courts. Now he's moved on to warning about the dangers of sending him to the Abu Ghraib prison in Australia.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 11, 2021, 06:24:34 pm
An interesting study reported in Lancet found that "Vaccine effectiveness [after a the third dose of vaccine] ... was estimated to be 93% (231 events for two doses vs 29 events for three doses; 95% CI 88–97) for admission to hospital, 92% (157 vs 17 events; 82–97) for severe disease, and 81% (44 vs seven events; 59–97) for COVID-19-related death."  The study is based on data from Clalit Health Services, the provider of mandatory health-care coverage for over half of the Israeli population'

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02249-2/fulltext
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mantis on November 12, 2021, 03:02:27 am
Dr Mark Hobart of a medical clinic in the Sunshine area had his clinic raided of all client records and employee records. Being investigated for fraudulent activity. Medical exemptions is the main issue. He was known to warn Brett Sutton in the past about vaccines. Risks and the fact he claimed they should only ever be voluntary like the flu vaccines. He was asked by the Department of health services to hand over all his clients medical files and refused. Was told to end his medical work and lose his clinic. Then he got raided Wednesday and everything was taken from his office. You will read articles in the media made public that should keep me safe from disclosing details. Some information states giving medical exemptions without justification by what is under the emergency state rulings. Where only an exemption exists if you have had a severe reaction to a covid accepted vaccine. To have severe proven reactions to the contents of each vaccine. To be of acute illness that prevents you from being administered the vaccine temporarily. Hence the reason the doctor in question has drawn the attention to himself. In the way that is it stated he has made regular media posts against vaccinations and appears to be part of the anti-vaccine alliance. Part of the drive to move towards the human rights that was a part of what people had prior to state emergency limitations. Apparently medical confidentiality doesn’t exist anymore. I also read multiple articles about possible false vaccinations.

Probably not a good thing to read. I admire bending rules, but if being a vigilante is a way to do duties, it will never end well. I myself don’t agree with the criteria of a medical exemption. “A serious reaction to a vaccine administered “. Which could be a problem. My theory of risk factor again being some concern. “A serious concern to specific ingredients of each vaccine that could cause detrimental results”.  Obviously based on past history. “An acute medical condition that prevents you from being administered a vaccine temporarily “. I would be surprised if this was the only story I have read about my topic of discussion. I didn’t make this up by the way. It is there on the internet for you to see. Sometimes in the general media. I am thinking things are serious becoming a way of who can bend rules better to suit their own needs. Could we ever have imagined things like this in our great country in the past? What is it I am missing? I am serious getting confused. Moral obligations and obligations to the people? Who do we ever trust again? Bats and f@cking China. They need to be accountable for what the world is experiencing. Did I just say something racist, or against the animal kingdom? I am tired and need to sleep. Mantis signing off. Night.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 12, 2021, 06:52:30 am
Hi Mantis

Thanks for your post.  An enlightened mind will always question something before accepting it.

The big questions are as follows:

Is this doctor bulk billing?  If so, then this muddies the waters for this.  The health department are just as responsible for ensuring malpractice doesn't occur and the medical records are also something that falls to the department of health.

Health information management is a tricky business but the government have generally had free reign to access these via the appropriate authorities for auditing.

Don't fall into the trap of advocating for someone who may not actually be worth advocating for.

These things are actually very complex and are often overly simplified to elicit a very specific response.

The propaganda machines are working overtime and I think we are seeing the sort of mobilising of people and ideals that tend to be seen during revolutions.

The trick there is to look through it.  Figures and organisations tend to orchestrate these happenings which simply shifts the power from one set of rulers to another.  The big question is whom is driving it...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on November 12, 2021, 07:28:42 am
An interesting study reported in Lancet found that "Vaccine effectiveness [after a the third dose of vaccine] ... was estimated to be 93% (231 events for two doses vs 29 events for three doses; 95% CI 88–97) for admission to hospital, 92% (157 vs 17 events; 82–97) for severe disease, and 81% (44 vs seven events; 59–97) for COVID-19-related death."  The study is based on data from Clalit Health Services, the provider of mandatory health-care coverage for over half of the Israeli population'

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02249-2/fulltext

Gee, why only tell 1/10th of the story David?

Do you want a lesson on RRR vs. ARR? ARR is about 1%. Citing RRR without the ARR is deceitful.

Or you could then throw in the recent Swedish study:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3949410

And then on transmission - total fail:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264262v2

And then on the vaccine fall out - inexcusable....

https://stevekirsch.substack.com/p/why-cant-anyone-explain-how-these?

Quote
My analysis of the VAERS records showed 5 of the 13 died of cardiac arrest. That’s not normal for kids. In a recent 5 year period (2015 to 2019), there have been zero deaths listing cardiac arrest in that age group (as you might expect). Zero deaths in 5 years! So the 5 deaths are both excess and suspicious and merit investigation. But not according to the CDC.

https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-11-11-2021

Only 647 coincidental deaths now. Sweet.




Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 12, 2021, 08:15:49 am
All immunity against all disease wanes over time, none of it is life long, which is why the elderly are more vulnerable to all disease than the young.

Only naysayers, anti-vaxers and COVID deniers makes claims around vaccines being imperfect as an argument against use, rational people understand that nothing is perfect and openly discuss the need for boosters and research into ongoing monitoring and treatment. As @DJC has done above.

Nobody who is rational has ever sold the public a forever solution, nobody who is rational has ever claimed things will return to be 100% the way they were before using technology that is available now, nobody who is rational has ever made claims of solution perfection.

Making repetitive cases against such alleged claims of failures to achieve perfection is arguing a ghost, the alleged failure doesn't exist because the alleged claims of being perfect never did!

The whole naysayer argument is an elaborate 'smokescreen', a construction designed to imply a conflict of opinion and a lack of consensus amongst specialists, ironically it is a tactic copied from the annals of the cigarette industry's opposition to deleterious effects of smoking.

What really surprises me, it that many naysayers keep posting links to peer reviewed papers that conclude the exact opposite of their conspiracy claims! I suppose they really think that nobody will or has read them, simply because they didn't! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on November 12, 2021, 01:17:10 pm
LP, you really piss me off. Your certitude is shill like. And wrong.

And you never address any specifics raised other than in rhetorical verbiage. Opposite conclusions? Funny.

Equal viral loads - you're clearly not a rocket scientist.

COVID vaccine mandates are necessary because the protected need to be protected from the unprotected by forcing the unprotected to use the protection that didn't protect the protected.

Smokescreens, you read the article about the kids dying? You think that's a smokescreen? Words fail me (polite ones)...

Stop being cheer leaders folks, this is serious stuff.

I'll just leave you lot with this....

https://www.habingfamily.com/obituary/michael-mike-granata
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 12, 2021, 01:22:03 pm
LP, you really piss me off. Your certitude is shill like.
Should he follow your lead in offering up nuanced interpretations of data which admit the possibility that vaccines work and Ivermectin doesn't? The Chinese Communist Party is more accepting of opposing views than you.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 12, 2021, 01:48:54 pm
@MAV‍ I'm relaxed about this, nobody can debate fake news and fake claims with real facts, just as the absence of evidence is never evidence of absence you can't win those debates, because counter-arguments will just be invented.

Much of the spurious content we find it necessary to debug exists only in a fantasy. As such I only feel obliged to offer a valid response to a heretical claim once, after that any continual repetition or replay of the same old same old claims is merely building evidence of lunacy. Like someone who listens to hours and hours of music on a iPod, with three songs on shuffle! :o

Should he follow your lead in offering up nuanced interpretations of data which admit the possibility that vaccines work and Ivermectin doesn't?
"Nuanced" seems pretty generous, ............. "bastardised" seems a better fit! :D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 12, 2021, 03:29:45 pm
Gee, why only tell 1/10th of the story David?

Do you want a lesson on RRR vs. ARR? ARR is about 1%. Citing RRR without the ARR is deceitful.

No, the paper I referenced is not a clinical trial but a real life study.

Or you could then throw in the recent Swedish study:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3949410

Yes, the effectiveness of all vaccines wanes over time.  My cousin has to have his childhood vaccinations again because he no longer has immunity.  It has been known for some time that an annual COVID vaccine will be necessary.

And then on transmission - total fail:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext

I'm not sure how much reliance you can place on a study involving only 231 individuals and no controls for other factors.  However:

Quote
Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts. Host–virus interactions early in infection may shape the entire viral trajectory.

That seems like a win to me.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264262v2

Relevance?  The bottom line is that vaccinated folk have less chance of infection and have less sever symptoms if they do get COVID.  For example, another real life study, this time from Canada:

Quote
Just seven fully vaccinated Albertans in their 50s have been admitted to an intensive care unit with COVID-19 since mid-May.

That compares to 181 unvaccinated people of the same age — despite the fact that there are far fewer of them.

Fully vaccinated 50-somethings were admitted to ICU at a rate of less than 3 per 100,000.

The rate among the unvaccinated, by comparison, was 139 per 100,000.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-severe-outcomes-covid-vaccination-1.6178449[/quote]

And then on the vaccine fall out - inexcusable....

https://stevekirsch.substack.com/p/why-cant-anyone-explain-how-these?

Nothing like a bit of fake news!  In fact:

Quote
CDC reviewed 14 reports of death after vaccination. Among the decedents, four were aged 12–15 years and 10 were aged 16–17 years. All death reports were reviewed by CDC physicians; impressions regarding cause of death were pulmonary embolism (two), suicide (two), intracranial hemorrhage (two), heart failure (one), hemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis and disseminated Mycobacterium chelonae infection (one), and unknown or pending further records (six).

It's also worth noting that the 14 reports of death arose after approximately 8.9 million US adolescents aged 12–17 years had received the Pfizer vaccine.

https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-11-11-2021

Only 647 coincidental deaths now. Sweet.

Yes, people die, and particularly those aged 65 and over.  The vast majority of the 656 folk who died after immunisation were 65 and over.  Inccidentally, the age standardised death rate for January to July 2021 was 246.1, comparable to the 245.8 recorded in 2020 and below the historical average of 262.5.  Not that 656 deaths would have much impact on our death rate but there's no reason to assume that the 647 deaths are anything but normal deaths from ischaemic heart disease or other common causes of death.

It is worth noting that only 9 deaths are linked to immunisation after 36.9 million doses have been administered. 

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on November 12, 2021, 05:37:53 pm
You're kidding David. Laughable frankly.

Did I ever say vaccines don't wane?

Name me another 'vaccine' that is dead useless after 6 months and next to useless after 2-3 months?

If you believe only 9 deaths of the 655 odd are caused by the vaccines, you must believe in Santa Claus.

You seen the report someone must complete? Not for the faint hearted.

Zero autopsies.

Fake news?

You refute studies and facts with rhetoric.

Miss this one?

https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635

Who would have thought a reputable company like Pfizer might fudge data. Oh wait.

Oh wait..... https://projects.propublica.org/graphics/bigpharma

Their partner GSK ain't squeaky clean either.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 12, 2021, 06:39:51 pm
Did I ever say vaccines don't wane?

Name me another 'vaccine' that is dead useless after 6 months and next to useless after 2-3 months?
The flu vaccine. So where do I pick up my prize?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 12, 2021, 07:13:40 pm
The fact that a person received a COVID-19 vaccine some time prior to their death does not of itself make their death
reportable to the coroner. Underlying causes is a very convenient way of not having perform an autopsy, I think its very common sense to assume that Doctors would not be encouraged by hospital admins to investigate or write death certificates with CoVid19 Vaccination as the probable cause of death. As most would know death certificates written up with underlying causes usually include all known conditions the deceased suffered from but I'd bet CoVid vax isnt in on too many of those lists as a potential cause of death. Respiratory failure is a favourite that covers a myriad of conditions because its the end result when you pass.....too easy to write that instead of investigating the real cause especially something sensitive like a vaccine caused death...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 12, 2021, 07:22:37 pm
The fact that a person received a COVID-19 vaccine some time prior to their death does not of itself make their death
reportable to the coroner. Underlying causes is a very convenient way of not having perform an autopsy, I think its very common sense to assume that Doctors would not be encouraged by hospital admins to investigate or write death certificates with CoVid19 Vaccination as the probable cause of death. As most would know death certificates written up with underlying causes usually include all known conditions the deceased suffered from but I'd bet CoVid vax isnt in on too many of those lists as a potential cause of death. Respiratory failure is a favourite that covers a myriad of conditions because its the end result when you pass.....too easy to write that instead of investigating the real cause especially something sensitive like a vaccine caused death...


No one wants to hear the vaccines have an issue.

Except people who don't want it.

That in itself is cause for concern.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 12, 2021, 10:37:18 pm
https://au.news.yahoo.com/surge-is-coming-europe-facing-covid-rises-despite-vaccine-coverage-204353441.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 12, 2021, 11:02:04 pm
Back in September Flyboy contributed a post that included the statement:

Quote
You do realise it [Ivermectin] has been on the WHO's list of most essential human drugs for decades and won the Nobel Prize in 2015?

I didn't respond at the time but now I think I should.  Ivermectin did not win the Nobel prize.  No drug has ever won the Nobel prize.  It is a prize that is awarded to people. 

The truth of the matter is that Satoshi Omura and William Campbell were awarded the 2015 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for their research that demonstrated that Ivermectin (developed back in the 1970s as a veterinary medicine) is effective in treating parasitic infections in humans as well as animals. 

At around the time of Flyboy's post, many prominent COVID-deniers and Ivermectin-boosters were making almost identical claims that Ivermectin "won" the Nobel Prize.  Of course, that got me thinking that someone or something was orchestrating a campaign and the COVID-deniers and Ivermectin-boosters were simply falling into line with their approved statements or catchphrases.

In response to the outrageous and blatantly wrong claims of the COVID-deniers and Ivermectin-boosters, Dr William Campbell was moved to make the following statement:

Quote
I utterly despise and deny the remarks attributed to me on social media on September 8, 2021,” he wrote. “I reject both the substance and the tone of the remarks, and resent their presentation as a direct quotation. The tweet in question was not concerned with science. I am a biologist with no claim to expertise in the clinical evaluation of drugs against viral infections. Thus, I have not taken a stand in support of, or against, the efficacy of ivermectin against COVID-19.

Anyone who claims that Ivermectin "won" the Nobel Prize or has any application beyond treating parasitic infections in humans and animals is playing fast and loose with the truth.. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 12, 2021, 11:11:42 pm
You're kidding David. Laughable frankly.

Did I ever say vaccines don't wane?

Name me another 'vaccine' that is dead useless after 6 months and next to useless after 2-3 months?

If you believe only 9 deaths of the 655 odd are caused by the vaccines, you must believe in Santa Claus.

You seen the report someone must complete? Not for the faint hearted.

Zero autopsies.

Fake news?

You refute studies and facts with rhetoric.

Miss this one?

https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635

Who would have thought a reputable company like Pfizer might fudge data. Oh wait.

Oh wait..... https://projects.propublica.org/graphics/bigpharma

Their partner GSK ain't squeaky clean either.


Well, none of the COVID vaccines are dead useless after 6 months but the flu vaccine is. 

The facts don't support your position Flyboy and conspiracy theories don't cut the mustard.  Unless you can come up with empirical evidence it's probably best just to fade away.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 13, 2021, 04:25:25 am
Firstly no Vaccines wane, vaccine effectiveness remains against the targeted strain but viral strains evolve.

Resistance from vaccination may diminish, but the immune system is complex and the measures of resistance only survey small parts of the immune system like neutralizing antibodies.

In Silico(computer) and In Vitro(Petri dish) and not the same as In Situ/Vivo(people).

Vaccines like Influenza are often a blend of new and old vaccines design to target In Silico predictions of viral evolution.

Resistance from immunization is a variable person to person, the best evidence comes from the billions of immunized people not dying or being hospitalized.

Infections are only part of the story because viral load matters, vaccination remains efficacious at reducing acute symptoms and viral load months or years after immunization.

Neutralizing antibody counts can fully or fractionally diminish over time, but that is only the simplest available measure, B-cell and T-cell immunity remains and it is the combination of many factors that deliver efficacy. Efficacy is not just a measure of antibody levels but a complex array of effectiveness measures.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 13, 2021, 04:47:43 am
Drugs shown to have some efficacy In Silico or In Vitro do not always work In Situ/Vivo, in fact most do not!

Example Ivermectin is a demonstrated 3CL Protease inhibitor In Silico, and at ridiculously high dose In Vitro it kills a virus like Sars-CoV-2, but at safe dose In Situ/Vivo it did nothing, it was worse than chance. And they have tested it in millions of people now either through the actions of nefarious despots or very large trials.

Now that doesn't mean they won't find a way to combine and deliver Ivermectin in some way to specifically target Sars-CoV-2, but for now that mechanism doesn't exist. But we should hope they do find a way because it might be cheaper solution!

Proving 3CL Protease inhibition does not prove efficacy, it is just a broad label. Like pieces of metal shaped into keys that superficially look the same they can be cut subtly differently and as such one key does not work opening every lock. If being labelled a 3CL Protease Inhibitor was all you need there are dozens of drugs that should work, but no one drug works on every virus, it is not as simple as applying the broad label suggests.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on November 13, 2021, 09:07:53 am
And for the shills - Ivermectin vs Pfizermectin.

Follow the $$$$.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufy2AweXRkc
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on November 13, 2021, 09:11:34 am
Well, none of the COVID vaccines are dead useless after 6 months but the flu vaccine is. 

The facts don't support your position Flyboy and conspiracy theories don't cut the mustard.  Unless you can come up with empirical evidence it's probably best just to fade away.

Is that right David. If you don't read what I put up you really are not well placed to comment.

Excess deaths and excess numbers of weird illnesses are just conspiracy?

You clearly have trouble interpreting government sourced data?

Let me know which chart or table you need help understanding?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on November 13, 2021, 09:14:27 am
Drugs shown to have some efficacy In Silico or In Vitro do not always work In Situ, in fact most do not!

Example Ivermectin is a demonstrated 3CL Protease inhibitor In Silico, and at ridiculously high dose In Vitro it kills a virus like Sars-CoV-2, but at safe dose In Situ it did nothing, it was worse than chance. And they have tested it in millions of people now either through the actions of nefarious despots or very large trials.

Now that doesn't mean they won't find a way to combine and deliver Ivermectin in some way to specifically target Sars-CoV-2, but for now that mechanism doesn't exist. But we should hope they do find a way because it might be cheaper solution!

Proving 3CL Protease inhibition does not prove efficacy, it is just a broad label. Like pieces of metal shaped into keys that superficially look the same they can be cut subtly differently and as such one key does not work opening every lock. If being labelled a 3CL Protease Inhibitor was all you need there are dozens of drugs that should work, but no one drug works on every virus, it is not as simple as applying the broad label suggests.


The high dose claim is just another lie.

Ivermectin has been used widely and very successfully to treat CV19. Why deny it?

c19ivermectin.com

https://covid19criticalcare.com/covid-19-protocols/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on November 13, 2021, 09:27:46 am
David says:

Quote
Well, none of the COVID vaccines are dead useless after 6 months but the flu vaccine is.

Your government says:

"Get a CV19 booster no later than 6 months after your last jab otherwise you're regarded as unvaxxed."

I wonder why that would be?

LP must know surely.

Maryanne Demasi says - https://maryannedemasi.com/publications/f/covid-19-passports-are-illogical-say-experts?blogcategory=COVID-19
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on November 13, 2021, 10:19:09 am
Worth watching the first 15 minutes or so (if you're in a hurry).

This is the guy developing the COVAX vaccine in Adelaide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x2ieHuj8zU

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 13, 2021, 11:06:16 am
The high dose claim is just another lie.

Ivermectin has been used widely and very successfully to treat CV19. Why deny it?

c19ivermectin.com

https://covid19criticalcare.com/covid-19-protocols/
Bad news, Brazil and India say hello, even at normal or in India's case about 15x normal dose levels! ;D

Quote
It was a mix of vitamins and other pills that President Jair Bolsonaro touted as early treatments for COVID-19, well before vaccines became widely available to prevent and minimize coronavirus infections.

Among the “kit” drugs were the malaria pill hydroxychloroquine and the antiparasitic tablet ivermectin.

Brazilian authorities even at one point launched an app, called TrateCov, (“TreatCov[id]” in English) which recommended the same seven “kit” drugs to all its users. (The evidence base for that protocol leaned heavily on data from Dr. Flávio Cadegiani, who’s now a member of the FLCCC, a US-based ivermectin propaganda machine.)

But Brazilians quickly discovered – through heart-wrenching personal experience – the limits of treating COVID-19 with ivermectin. Brazil suffered some of its worst death rates yet in late 2020 and early 2021, even in heavily ivermectin-dosed areas, as the more transmissible P1 variant spread quickly across the country.

The biggest Ivermectin experiments on earth missed it by that much, massive fail for reasons I've already addressed above (https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=4922.msg355999#msg355999), not all protease inhibitors are equal, case closed!

Since he started his Ivermectin / Pfizer rant Dr John Campbell has been questioned about Brazil and India multiple times, yet he refuses to address the Ivermectin it in his videos and continues on with his anti-Pfizer rant! Unfortunately it probably exposes him as a paranoid big pharma conspiracist which will no doubt devalue some of his earlier good work. I suppose everyone can fall off the rails after a bout of illness! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on November 13, 2021, 11:12:38 am
Maryanne Demassi is your poster girl for truth…?
How’s your wifi signal ?
🤣🤣🤣

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 13, 2021, 11:16:49 am
I dont know much, but what I've seen is over the last 2 years, painters, electricians and mechanics seem to have more health advice regarding a pandemic with categorical statements of fact than any medical professionals i know which is cause enough to state with accuracy that there is no miracle drug out there that works irrespective of the assertions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 13, 2021, 11:32:49 am
There is a bit of a social media movement pushing 3CL protease inhibitors, actually any protease inhibitor but mostly Ivermectin, it is a gross oversimplification of reality.

Yes, many drugs are protease inhibitors, and inhibiting protease can stop viral replication. But not every drug that can inhibit protease works to stop every virus. The spurious claims are misleading, like Dr John Campbell's reference to molecule and carbon atom counts. So I'll make a simple analogy as a counterpoint.

Two houses can have the same number and shape ceramic tiles in the same mix of colours, but one may be a T shaped hip roof from 1980, and the other a cathedral gable from 1876! Counting tiles is not a valid description of the structure.

We know many protease inhibitors do squat, even others do plenty but will kill you faster than the virus, it all comes down to that structure! That is why the devil is in the detail. For a protease inhibitor to work it has to have both the correct structure to get where it needs to be, and be inserted at exactly the right moment, otherwise the virus will most likely replace it as that is what a virus does.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 13, 2021, 12:06:38 pm
I dont know much, but what I've seen is over the last 2 years, painters, electricians and mechanics seem to have more health advice regarding a pandemic with categorical statements of fact than any medical professionals i know which is cause enough to state with accuracy that there is no miracle drug out there that works irrespective of the assertions.

Probably the most sensible comment in the almost 400 pages of this thread  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 13, 2021, 12:11:15 pm
At least Flyboy has stopped relying on Thomas Borody when pushing Ivermectin. He was his go-to guy a while back. But then it came out Borody had taken a patent out on his ivermectin protocol and had been making out like a bandit prescribing it to patients until the Federal Govt restricted the ability of doctors to prescribe Ivermectin. I guess when you want to argue that everyone who advocates the use of vaccines is a shill of big Pharma and is making money off the vaccine program, it's a bit inconvenient when your star witness is making money off pushing Ivermectin. And it's even more inconvenient when your star witness gave evidence in the NSW Supreme Court in the challenge to the vaccine mandates alongside another Ivermectin advocate in Professor Ian Brighthope and the Judge preferred the evidence of the government expert.

So damning was the decision in the Supreme Court of NSW that anti-vaxxers circulated a faked transcript of the testimony of the government expert, Professor Kristine Macartney, which had her saying that vaccinated people were 13 times more likely to catch Covid than unvaccinated people. What an absolute outrage that they descend to that level of dishonesty. Ivermectin is just a figleaf for these arseholes to pretend that they wouldn't be happy to see millions die just so they can win their war.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 13, 2021, 01:13:01 pm
At least Flyboy has stopped relying on Thomas Borody when pushing Ivermectin.
Why am I not surprised they turn out to be grifters?

I'm surprised any of the anti-vax Ivermectin grifters have the time to continue with business, I suppose you have to take every opportunity, but I would have thought they would be flat out appealing / protesting Nathan Buckley's suspension from the bar!

I think I'll refer to them as Lemmings or perhaps even Stoolies from here on, the more they push their agenda the more they expose it's con, although perhaps neither term is accurate given if they practise what they preach they probably have more in common with the Dodo!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on November 13, 2021, 08:49:57 pm
At least Flyboy has stopped relying on Thomas Borody when pushing Ivermectin. He was his go-to guy a while back. But then it came out Borody had taken a patent out on his ivermectin protocol and had been making out like a bandit prescribing it to patients until the Federal Govt restricted the ability of doctors to prescribe Ivermectin. I guess when you want to argue that everyone who advocates the use of vaccines is a shill of big Pharma and is making money off the vaccine program, it's a bit inconvenient when your star witness is making money off pushing Ivermectin. And it's even more inconvenient when your star witness gave evidence in the NSW Supreme Court in the challenge to the vaccine mandates alongside another Ivermectin advocate in Professor Ian Brighthope and the Judge preferred the evidence of the government expert.

So damning was the decision in the Supreme Court of NSW that anti-vaxxers circulated a faked transcript of the testimony of the government expert, Professor Kristine Macartney, which had her saying that vaccinated people were 13 times more likely to catch Covid than unvaccinated people. What an absolute outrage that they descend to that level of dishonesty. Ivermectin is just a figleaf for these arseholes to pretend that they wouldn't be happy to see millions die just so they can win their war.

Follow the money trail... who is funding Invermectin claims, and feeding the propaganda?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 13, 2021, 09:07:10 pm
Follow the money trail... who is funding Invermectin claims, and feeding the propaganda?
Psychopaths preserving their income and investments ahead of preserving human life. Ivermectin is a cheapest thing they can throw at Sars-CoV-2 while still claiming it has some potential functionality. It's ubiquitous because it's already pretty much everywhere livestock exists, and so they can claim they are throwing money at the problem while not actually needing to make a fresh purchase.

At least Ivermectin has some potential if they can find a complimentary drug that they can combine it with to get a result, but on it's own it's worthless.

The claims surrounding HCQ are far more nefarious, the poor Brazilians copped the rough end of both from that crook Bolsonaro!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mantis on November 14, 2021, 12:17:22 am
Saw footage today on the news of the protesters in Melbourne again in very large numbers. Speculated estimates of over 50,000 people in and around Parliament House and Treasury Gardens. Protests against one of the main issues is the new amendment to an existing State of Emergency bill. Spoken of as being the Pandemic Management bill PHW act 2021. Very few viewings on TV for me. Probably what happens when you do the graveyard shift and live like a Vampire. I catch more of what is happening in Victoria and Australia on the internet than I do on TV. It was good to see little on no violence. Not real intervention or actions by the police. Always a case of people against vaccines as a mandate. That has been a part of what division we have in society at the moment.

The bill is in a review process before the upper house politicians in Victoria form the 16th of this month through to the 18th when the vote for this bill will take effect. With the numbers that the party in power with affiliates leaves them with a need to have the cross bench members to vote against the recommendation. However it was stated on the news that 3 cross bench members agree and have stated it to the media that they will vote yes, that this is all that is required to pass this bill.

The arguments against come as suggested amendments to what is in this 100 plus page document. By the President of the Victorian Bar Council, who was implicated in the bill as a supporter and endorsing the document, while stating multiple times by mail to be against it. Sending messages to the current government to amend the details to avoid further invasion of human rights. Same goes for the President of Liberty Victoria. However once the vote has been taken and recorded the issue will be final.

We could expect changes but I seriously don’t see anything major before 2022. I predict the new State of emergency plan under Pandemic Management will be activated on the 16th of December and not acted on. Allowyus to get through Christmas. Boxing Day test. New Years celebrations and what an interesting Tv viewing of the year that was that will be. Then we start a new year 2022 and we have no idea what is in front of us.

I will stay here posting all I hear and see. I love debating and exchanging views. Not always something I agree but I swear to God if someone posts a view I was against and didn’t have an argument because my thoughts had no back up. I would say no argument. I can’t justify my view. It now leads to some concerns again. It might be a case that I should be banned from posting late at night. It is when I am awake and able to do my best work. By best I actually means spin sh1t as this little old man has little to go on and depend on what I see and hear. I have just viewed multiple video interviews on the internet. It worries me and it might explain a few things to me. A few members of the medical world, nurses and doctors have announced a strange phenomena. Gagging orders by email from the EUA regarding vaccines about to be introduced to the public back as far as 2020. Most of these during the course of 2021. Stating that if there is any form of negativity spread about vaccines for covid or any form of leading people to avoid future vaccines or attempting to promote medical exemptions it could and would lead to losing registration and licences to practice in the field of medical help. Has anyone heard of this in the medical field. I actually have today. I can’t say where but on a quiet note I was told to not mention names. Surely this must be something conspiracy theorists would have a field day about. I now remember hearing friends who looked for medical exemptions and were told I could lose my licence and practice doing this.

Hence, is it true that a number of nurses and doctors have left their field of work due do to some form of moral conflict to serve the people? I know some that have left but not certain why just yet. I see numbers of the police force that are at protests with a similar situation. Some could be because they are not vaccinated. Some could be for moral reasons.

Her is the best for last. Sex workers. Let me just call them sex relief practitioner members. I had many people I talk to that are single get their relief of every day covid stresses this way. Don’t worry about scanning in Sir, we don’t give a f@#k. We will give that to you but don’t worry about masks. What about your vaccine status? What vaccine status? To allow me to enter and get what I need. Pay your money, get your unload, and leave the building. Are sex relief workers under the essential services of work? Are they mandated to be jabbed? What about their clients? Should that be called customers?  What about contact tracing in this field? I can’t even say he or she, because it could be a he that was a she, or a she that was a he, transsexual, bi or more than I as and old fart could possibly imagine. Is there a spread of anything that would make you think? How do you do the 1.5 metre distancing thing unless you are a horse? Keen o hear more about the medical industry and nurses and doctors. I am hearing more about people leaving the business than I ever have before. It will put a strain on the system. Makes me feel sad. The people help us with medical needs are leaving. Is this true?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 14, 2021, 06:55:22 am
We could expect changes but I seriously don’t see anything major before 2022
I love reading your interest and perspective on this, I think it is probably far more than just COVID or vaccines and needs to have a separate thread!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 14, 2021, 08:10:36 am
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/world/netherland-lockdown-covid-bars-restaurants-mark-rutte-virus-austria-b965814.html%3famp

Make the most of this summer everyone.  The lockdowns are beginning again in Europe.  Right on time, just as winter is taking a hand hold in earnest.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on November 14, 2021, 09:06:59 am
Went out for lunch at a restaurant for the first time in a forever, and after receiving the bill, i'll be happy to go back into lockdown. lol

I think a few places have jacked up their prices, and fair enough really, since lockdowns have killed them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 14, 2021, 09:33:40 am
Re Nurses and Dr's gagged... Yep Nurses were told no negative vaccine waves and to see the beauty in those vaccine jabs.
Don't know about Dr's but the hospital variety would have to run everything by the Registrar who gives permission to make public comment normally anyway.
Covid is back in Europe and vaccine rates in some countries are an issue, getting people to get boosters is going to be another story to watch. England has been slow in getting boosters and I think that's going to be the case in a lot of countries where folk think its job done with the initial jabs.
Can see a booster mandate in Victoria with Dan in full power trip mode...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 14, 2021, 10:30:50 am
In Victoria, we don't have to wait for Winter to come around again; we're still in it. It's freezing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 14, 2021, 11:06:26 am
Mantis, it sounds nefarious to limit the ability of nurses to say whatever they want to patients or in public, but should nurses have a right to spread disinformation or misinformation? If a nurse is an anti-vaxxer, should it be permissible for him or her to scare patients out of taking the vaccine with lies told in service of a greater cause? What about a nurse in an obstetric ward who wants to tell every pregnant woman that their children will be born deformed if they vaccinate themselves? If nurses have a right to free speech in their workplaces then they couldn't even be moved or disciplined. You'd have to try to clean up around them. And how many hours would you need to spend with a terrorised pregnant woman to talk her around after an anti-vaxxer has finished with her?

The problem is that we see professions, particularly helping professions, as monoliths. But they are large communities which have their share of wackos and evildoers. We've had solicitors who steal their clients' money, barristers who sell out their clients to the police, police who rape, murder and sell drugs, doctors who believe in demon blood, and nurses who kill their patients. As a reality check, who is the granddaddy of anti-vaxxers? Andrew Wakefield, who was a doctor at the time he faked case studies he said showed that MMR vaccines caused autism. He was deregistered as a result. I suppose anti-vaxxers would say that was an outrageous attempt to strip him of his right to free speech and prevent him from getting his message out to the people.  

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mantis on November 14, 2021, 01:13:52 pm
Re Nurses and Dr's gagged... Yep Nurses were told no negative vaccine waves and to see the beauty in those vaccine jabs.
Don't know about Dr's but the hospital variety would have to run everything by the Registrar who gives permission to make public comment normally anyway.
Covid is back in Europe and vaccine rates in some countries are an issue, getting people to get boosters is going to be another story to watch. England has been slow in getting boosters and I think that's going to be the case in a lot of countries where folk think its job done with the initial jabs.
Can see a booster mandate in Victoria with Dan in full power trip mode...

The booster program is being worked on. Mr Foley has brought the topic up a number of times as has the Covid Commander. People I work with think the job is done after the 2nd vaccination. I tell them we will see a booster program which has been mentioned. It would have to be a part of an on going plan you would think. How else would we maintain a vaccinated status without it? I don’t think people understand how we will be living with Covid and what the rules will be in the next year or so. It doesn’t end with two shots. Especially once state to state borders open up and international travel and movement is in full swing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 14, 2021, 02:31:38 pm
Went out for lunch at a restaurant for the first time in a forever, and after receiving the bill, i'll be happy to go back into lockdown. lol

I think a few places have jacked up their prices, and fair enough really, since lockdowns have killed them.
I don't mind the prices being raised a bit given the lower density seating, but I expect quality and service at the higher price to make it worthwhile to eat in.

A lot of places are doing themselves in by giving half the service, average product and a 90min limit for almost double the price.

In my area the more experienced foodies are doing hybrid trading, some in-house complimented by a shed load of home delivery.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 14, 2021, 03:06:34 pm

[/quote]
The booster program is being worked on. Mr Foley has brought the topic up a number of times as has the Covid Commander. People I work with think the job is done after the 2nd vaccination. I tell them we will see a booster program which has been mentioned. It would have to be a part of an on going plan you would think. How else would we maintain a vaccinated status without it? I don’t think people understand how we will be living with Covid and what the rules will be in the next year or so. It doesn’t end with two shots. Especially once state to state borders open up and international travel and movement is in full swing.
Novavax and Moderna are working on a combo vaccine that does your regular flu and Covid.
Novavax are testing it here in Aus on 50-70 year olds , I see this as your once a year booster shot for the future.
In the USA the booster program is for 65 year olds at this stage or was last time I read about it due to safety concerns for other age groups.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on November 14, 2021, 03:13:02 pm
I don't mind the prices being raised a bit given the lower density seating, but I expect quality and service at the higher price to make it worthwhile to eat in.

A lot of places are doing themselves in by giving half the service, average product and a 90min limit for almost double the price.

In my area the more experienced foodies are doing hybrid trading, some in-house complimented by a shed load of home delivery.
This is a place in Carlton (not on Lygon) that we've been going to for over a decade now. Always had quality service, and food. As its Carlton, prices have always been on the higher end anyway....but even then....Thankfully portion sizes are decent, so i was a bit heavier walking out, even if the hip pocket was very much lighter.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 14, 2021, 04:30:57 pm
You'd imagine the boosters would be rolled out in the same order as the original vaccines were offered: in other words, over 65s and those with co-morbidities first. Mostly, that just reflects that they had been vaccinated earlier and  their immunity would therefore wane earlier. But then again, the AZ vaccine had a 3 month gap in between doses while Pfizer only had 1 month's gap or even less, so that would have compressed the time line a bit.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mantis on November 14, 2021, 04:58:26 pm
Mav. I agree with the weather as we are only 2 weeks away from summer and this is not the kind of weather we would expect this late in the year. Not on a regular basis. I read your reply to my post and great points made. I think there is potential for problems when people in certain fields of work offering opinions. Opinions are very often based on personal perceptions. I also see danger in telling truths that could create panic and give people more to worry about than they need to. Rogue operators as I would choose to manipulate situations to benefit their own needs is just wrong and should be punished. The biggest issue however is the grey zone between the truth and what is perceived to be the best for everyone in terms of health and well-being. Is a gagging order (if that is a correct term to use) a way to manage a program of vaccine mandates. I call it as a mandate as we see well and truly if you don’t comply with health orders, you must work from home. If you exercise your right to choice, you will not have a passport to allow you entry into restaurants, retail stores, freedom of movement etc. Sure enough you won’t be jabbed, but you will be restricted from doing many things you might need and enjoy. Stopping people from telling the truth can also be dangerous. I have always considered it as a duty of care in any field of work. Honesty is required if you have ethics. That is where the grey zone comes into play. How do you answer questions you are asked? Do you tell people what you see and experience first hand? Do you direct people to manufacturers specifications and tested results? Does this divert the attention of people to direct any liability to the manufacturers and pharmaceutical companies? Remember the movie “A few good men”. “I want the truth”. “You can’t handle the truth”.  How do some of the people operate in their field of work? What is it that we really know? How much is really an opinion based on personal perception and belief, and how much is pure fact? Not manufacturers facts, but real life experienced fact?

Probably why we are here discussing our views. We are probably more in this grey zone than, pro or against any government programs. I myself am lost. I see people leave the police force, leave nursing placings after many years, and now I hear doctors doing similar. Do they feel they can’t serve the community and still follow orders and instructions? Thank god life is so simple and easy to understand or we would have nothing to talk about here. I would rather know everything and make life choices to suit what is best for me. On another note, is it best a new thread is started on the new Pandemic bill? I will have lots to say there. Lots.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 14, 2021, 05:06:52 pm
You'd imagine the boosters would be rolled out in the same order as the original vaccines were offered: in other words, over 65s and those with co-morbidities first. Mostly, that just reflects that they had been vaccinated earlier and  their immunity would therefore wane earlier. But then again, the AZ vaccine had a 3 month gap in between doses while Pfizer only had 1 month's gap or even less, so that would have compressed the time line a bit.
Reckon it will be just be the expiry date 6 months after your last jab and there will be choice and quantity of vaccines available for all age groups. With Europe struggling with another surge I'd expect a very strong campaign from the Government to get everyone done quicker and more efficiently second time around.
ScoMo wont be letting the booster program lag like the initial rollout and Dan will be have the finger on the mandate button waiting to push it like Xi has his finger on the button waiting to send missiles Taiwan's way...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 14, 2021, 08:46:29 pm
They've already started boosters at work.

6 months after your second jab you can your third.

Im due jan 6th.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 15, 2021, 12:01:58 pm
For those who think the vaccine mandate over here is over the top, Austria has announced that it will impose a lockdown of the unvaccinated aged 12 upwards when 30% of ICU beds are taken by Covid patients. The unvaccinated will then be allowed outside only for limited reasons. Austria only has a vaccination rate of 65%. By the way, Austria is controlled by conservatives (the senior partner in a power-sharing arrangement).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 15, 2021, 12:09:02 pm
Even our alleged "World Record Lockdown" is a really a bogus description, compared to the lockdowns in some regions ours was a "Clayton's Lockdown!"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 15, 2021, 12:41:05 pm
The anti-lockdown protesters must look at Eastern Europe and fantasise about what they could have achieved in Australia if they'd been more successful:
As COVID-19 Surges In Eastern Europe, Leaders Slow To Act (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/as-covid-19-surges-in-eastern-europe-leaders-slow-to-act_n_61911a55e4b04e5bdfd13e01), Huffpost.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 15, 2021, 05:22:23 pm
They've already started boosters at work.

6 months after your second jab you can your third.

Im due jan 6th.

16 Jan for me Thry.

I'm not entirely happy about getting Pfizer as the booster.  I know that mixing vaccinations is meant to be more effective but I know that I won't have side effects from AZ.  Still, the chances of severe side effects from Pfizer are pretty slim.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 15, 2021, 07:05:46 pm
16 Jan for me Thry.

I'm not entirely happy about getting Pfizer as the booster.  I know that mixing vaccinations is meant to be more effective but I know that I won't have side effects from AZ.  Still, the chances of severe side effects from Pfizer are pretty slim.

Id rather have AZ next time around, but we are being given 0 option.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 16, 2021, 11:46:25 am
Call me a cynic, simplistic or whatever you like,

VaccinatedUnvaccinated
1Population (Approx)80%20%
2In Hospital COVID related (Approx)5%95%
Why don't the row 1 percentages match the row 2 percentages?

If the vaccines and masks do not work or are unsafe shouldn't there be at least proportional representation in hospitals, but instead of the unvaccinated being 1 case out of every 5 hospitalisations, it seems unvaccinated are approximately 19 out of every 20 hospitalisations!

Ignoring this sort of fundamental characteristic of the pandemic, so as to arrive at some weird and complex conclusion, seems to be a common trait of COVID denial and vaccine hesitancy!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 16, 2021, 11:59:40 am
I don't get the publicly stated desire for Novavax, or the seemingly unfounded belief it will be somehow safer with less side-effects than the current alternatives.

For that matter I don't get the underlying belief that "treatments or cures" are also safer with less side-effects, certainly that is not the case with snake-oil like Ivermectin whether it works on not!

On Novavax, here in Australia the Novavax trials showed most have only mild to moderate side effects, with a small percentage experiencing some serious acute side effects, But the total participants in both trials was only 1500 people.

Given Pfizer or AZ serious acute side-effects occur at the rate of 1 per 100000 people, the confidence in Novavax being better is greatly overstated, because if only 1 out of 1500 people got a serious acute side-effect during the Novavax trial, that scales to 66 per 100000! :o

The biggest formally reported trial of Novavax so far has been about 40000 people, still far too small to judge an equivalence.

I'll be pleasantly gobsmacked if Novavax is significantly better, it would probably have to be the safest vaccine in history to improve on the others!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 16, 2021, 12:41:56 pm
I don't get the publicly stated desire for Novavax, or the seemingly unfounded belief it will be somehow safer with less side-effects than the current alternatives.

For that matter I don't get the underlying belief that "treatments or cures" are also safer with less side-effects, certainly that is not the case with snake-oil like Ivermectin whether it works on not!

On Novavax, here in Australia the Novavax trials showed most have only mild to moderate side effects, with a small percentage experiencing some serious acute side effects, But the total participants in both trials was only 1500 people.

Given Pfizer or AZ serious acute side-effects occur at the rate of 1 per 100000 people, the confidence in Novavax being better is greatly overstated, because if only 1 out of 1500 people got a serious acute side-effect during the Novavax trial, that scales to 66 per 100000! :o

The biggest formally reported trial of Novavax so far has been about 40000 people, still far too small to judge an equivalence.

I'll be pleasantly gobsmacked if Novavax is significantly better, it would probably have to be the safest vaccine in history to improve on the others!
Novavax has been adopted by Indonesia and that will be a very decent trial sample.....my daughters MIL who has severe medical issues was advised no AZ or Pfizer/Moderna by her specialists but both said Novavax was ok for her if and when it arrives so it does have some support in the medical community.
As I said before they are also leading the way in a combo vaccine that is being trialled here in Aus on the quiet and in a few other countries for the 50-70 year old age groups.
Supporters of AZ seem a tad concerned about Novavax for some strange reason and maybe see it as taking decent market share if they can get their production issues sorted.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 16, 2021, 01:02:58 pm
Novavax has been adopted by Indonesia and that will be a very decent trial sample.....
Sputnik, Sinovax, CoronaVac, Covaxin, AZ, Pfizer, Moderna, J&J and others have already issued about 3.2 Billion doses. I doubt any of them have much to fear, because it's highly unlikely Novavax exits any large scale roll out unscathed.

I'm quite cynical because the Novavax push appears to me to be more profit orientated than science based.

For reference, because they are selling vaccines for profit Novavax, Pfizer and Moderna are about 400% more expensive on average to the end user than AZ, Sinovax, Sputnik, Covaxin, etc., etc...

From a manufacturing perspective, it might be harder to make a mRNA hybrid (Influenza / Sars-CoV-2) vaccine, than it will be to formulate the same in viral vector(AZ) or protein sub-units(Novavax). I suspect in terms of Sars-CoV-2 it would be the mRNA vaccines that might lose out longer term.

PS: About 90% of vaccinations in Indonesia to date are Sinovax / CoronaVac, Indonesia they are not a big player in mRNA or Viral Vector. I wonder if the Indonesia Novavax push part of getting in on Australia's obligation under Covax to donate millions of doses of vaccine, whatever that vaccine may be? It feels like the sort of deal Scomo might do for some nuclear sub support in return!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on November 16, 2021, 02:15:24 pm
I’m not sure I’d be placing much faith in the indo govs accounting.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 16, 2021, 02:17:21 pm
My wife's friend who's in her early 50s was in ICU on the weekend with covid. If she wasn't fully vaxxed she would probably be dead.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on November 16, 2021, 03:23:44 pm
Something I have not seen in many, many months - long queues at the Covid testing stations at Brighton East and Bentleigh East.
These areas are included in the highest rates of vaccination take-up, so what am I missing?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 16, 2021, 04:11:18 pm
These areas are included in the highest rates of vaccination take-up, so what am I missing?
The effects of social media and breakthrough infections.

Do some flights resume later this week, testing negative within 72hrs of departure is required in some cases?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 16, 2021, 04:56:36 pm
Sputnik, Sinovax, CoronaVac, Covaxin, AZ, Pfizer, Moderna, J&J and others have already issued about 3.2 Billion doses. I doubt any of them have much to fear, because it's highly unlikely Novavax exits any large scale roll out unscathed.

I'm quite cynical because the Novavax push appears to me to be more profit orientated than science based.

For reference, because they are selling vaccines for profit Novavax, Pfizer and Moderna are about 400% more expensive on average to the end user than AZ, Sinovax, Sputnik, Covaxin, etc., etc...

From a manufacturing perspective, it might be harder to make a mRNA hybrid (Influenza / Sars-CoV-2) vaccine, than it will be to formulate the same in viral vector(AZ) or protein sub-units(Novavax). I suspect in terms of Sars-CoV-2 it would be the mRNA vaccines that might lose out longer term.

PS: About 90% of vaccinations in Indonesia to date are Sinovax / CoronaVac, Indonesia they are not a big player in mRNA or Viral Vector. I wonder if the Indonesia Novavax push part of getting in on Australia's obligation under Covax to donate millions of doses of vaccine, whatever that vaccine may be? It feels like the sort of deal Scomo might do for some nuclear sub support in return!
Novavax will be marketed as Covovax in Indonesia and will be made by the Indian Pharma Serum Institute known as SII, I believe the WHO are expecting Novavax to donate to the Covax program for smaller countries with no money via their production with SII.
Greg Hunt has said no more AZ(Covaxin) in Aus after the last batch is produced and most of that is to be given away to pacific neighbors due to the poor takeup. Penny Wong wants it to go to Indonesia and wants the Government to continue to make it for poorer countries but last time I heard Hunt speak he said this batch will be the last.
Pfizer is the dominant player in the world and will dominate the non chinese market along with Moderna and make up 75% of that market. They will also be introducing new updated vaccines by mid 2022 and are banking on the fact everyone will want their newer tweaked vaccines rather than other companies older tech.
Dont disagree Pfizer and Moderna are money makers first and health providers 2nd and according to the Financial Times will be raking in 30-$54 billion which is double what the projected earnings were initially around 30 billion according to other analysts, Moderna no slouches either with 20-$38 billion...
Pfizer have also got in first for paediatric approval as well which will form a large part of their sales next year when many countries start approving vaccine jabs for kids...
Its going to be one way traffic business wise and thats a concern in terms of producing the best vaccines vs the best marketing and production programs which is what Pfizer have over the other vaccine providers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 16, 2021, 08:32:46 pm
Pfizer is the dominant player in the world and will dominate the non chinese market along with Moderna and make up 75% of that market.
I've had a look at a few sources to cross check this, are you sure about that stat?

I think it may be worthwhile cross checking your source of information, I can't find anything that matches those claims, either in future orders, vaccines delivered or vaccines issued. I've checked with Nature, Nikkei and Bloomberg, they all have relative up to date stats.

Also Vaxzevria will continue to be made by CSL until the end of the 53 million dose order, production in Melbourne is expected to continue through 2022. I realise it won't continue to be called AstraZeneca, but I think that is a bit of a play on words by Hunt.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 17, 2021, 01:47:05 am
FiercePharma.com, The Financial Times and Airfinity were the sources for those figures from memory.
I said in my previous post that AZ would be produced by CSL to complete the contract but a lot of those doses are expected to be donated to pacific Neighbors.
Pfizer also have some viral treatment tablet coming out as well but I don't know any details.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 17, 2021, 01:15:06 pm
Very interesting trend in the USA with mainstream doctors starting to take their fringe dwelling minority counterparts to task.

It looks like the bulk of the doctors working in health care are fed up with the fringe dwellers drumming them up more business than they have capacity to handle, so through official channels the mainstream medicos are taking to task the fringe doctors who have been pushing useless drugs like Ivermectin and HCQ.

In some cases the majority has even initiated group action against individuals when the peak bodies in some states failed to act due to political interference!

I wonder if mainstream journalists, lawyers and politicians will follow suit?

It looks like the majority is starting to get fed up, not sure this is a good thing though, to go to war with fanatics you must be prepared to become one!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 18, 2021, 08:27:35 am
Yay, a new vaccine is entering trials. This one trains a type of white blood cell, T-cells, to kill the virus as soon as it infects any cells.

A "T-cell priming" vaccine could provide better COVID-19 immunity than mRNA vaccines (https://www.salon.com/2021/11/17/t-cell-priming-vaccine/), Salon.

I wonder when they're going to bring out Ivermectin 2, the new, improved Ivermectin?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 18, 2021, 10:20:05 am
I wonder when they're going to bring out Ivermectin 2, the new, improved Ivermectin?
Pfizer's new tablet is already basically a modified protease inhibitor, so in effect a re-engineered version of drugs like Ivermectin and other similar protease inhibitors.

With some irony, some previous Ivermectin pushers and now are taking a new political position and trying to disparage the new Pfizer drug by associating or highlighting it's similarity with Ivermectin. Funny, eh, they should all be renamed Flip Wilson!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 18, 2021, 10:24:04 am
Yay, a new vaccine is entering trials. This one trains a type of white blood cell, T-cells, to kill the virus as soon as it infects any cells.

A "T-cell priming" vaccine could provide better COVID-19 immunity than mRNA vaccines (https://www.salon.com/2021/11/17/t-cell-priming-vaccine/), Salon.
Until safety and efficacy is proven, these things are all pipe dreams.

They design / theorise all sorts of stuff In Silico, but despite being based on real world chemistry and physics much of it is closer to science fiction than science fact. After they sort out how to actually make it, not trivial and in some cases even impossible, going to In Vitro is the next step, and if it's safe then it is probably to animal trials before In Situ / Vivo trials. The whole process can take decades.

Much of the vaccines currently in use were already in development or use decades ago, that is why they became available so fast. That's were the anti-vax claims about "new" and "unproven" are bullshizen, even the newest of the set the mRNA vaccines, those techniques have been in trial and development since the early 2000s!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 18, 2021, 11:07:05 am
The article says it is about to enter a small-scale clinical trial, so it must already have succeeded in preclinical trials. The first patient will receive it in Jan 2022. The control group of 13 will receive placebos, while the other group of 13 will receive the vaccine. Interesting to read that the vaccine group will receive varying doses, which suggests they're trying to speed up the trial process by blending Phase 1 & 2. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 18, 2021, 12:00:51 pm
The article says it is about to enter a small-scale clinical trial, so it must already have succeeded in preclinical trials. The first patient will receive it in Jan 2022. The control group of 13 will receive placebos, while the other group of 13 will receive the vaccine. Interesting to read that the vaccine group will receive varying doses, which suggests they're trying to speed up the trial process by blending Phase 1 & 2.
Good then, but any claims or suggestions of a technology being safer are vastly overstated.

Really, the current vaccines are not that much more risky than having a bare needle inserted, so it is very hard to see how any new technology can be significantly or substantially better and that applies to Novavax as well!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 18, 2021, 12:45:58 pm
I understand why you would be concerned that promotion of new vaccines might undermine confidence in those that exist already. But the silver lining of the pandemic is that it has accelerated medical science in the way that wars have accelerated technology. The British were still flying biplanes at the start of WWII and by the end of the war they had jets. We've fast-forwarded through a decade of normal research into coronaviruses. It'll be interesting to see whether this ends up giving us better ways of suppressing the flu, for instance.

Stories like this are also a bit of an antidote to the pessimism of those who say that Covid will manage to evade vaccines, so why put your eggs in the vaccine basket. Yes, Covid may well mutate so that existing vaccines struggle to fight it (although recent articles suggest that there's reason to think Covid may find it hard to improve on Delta), but they can be tweaked or replaced by new vaccines or treatments. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 18, 2021, 04:56:46 pm
Nurses in NSW now have to prove they caught CoVid at work to receive any compensation, thats probably part of the reason that 20000 Nurses quit the job this year and gave up their registration. Why bust your Ar$e saving lives, risking your life and working double shifts for peanuts when no one gives a feck about your health, this country has some serious problems with the standard of government and the lack of common sense being shown.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 18, 2021, 05:02:57 pm
I'm sure this video will be of interest to fans and non fans of Ivermectin....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufy2AweXRkc
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 18, 2021, 06:05:36 pm
Nurses in NSW now have to prove they caught CoVid at work to receive any compensation, thats probably part of the reason that 20000 Nurses quit the job this year and gave up their registration. Why bust your Ar$e saving lives, risking your life and working double shifts for peanuts when no one gives a feck about your health, this country has some serious problems with the standard of government and the lack of common sense being shown.


Talk about spitting chips over that stupid decision !!!  20,000 nurses is even worse EB ...  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 18, 2021, 11:10:36 pm
According to Kylie Ward, the CEO of the Australian College of Nursing, around 20,000 nurses leave the profession every year.  That's a 5% churn rate; high, but not unexpected in a high-pressure, low-reward workforce.

The vaccine mandate has resulted in less than 1% of the nursing workforce leaving the profession.

One of my family members is a nurse and he's thriving in the current environment.  I guess it takes all types as well as individual employment arrangements.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 19, 2021, 10:59:21 am
Only in America ... apparently, anti-vaxxers who vaccinate because of vaccine mandates are trying to return to their unvaccinated state by bathing in borax etc. It would be a sneaky way to get the anti-vaxxers to vaccinate: amplify the conspiracy theory that vaccination can be reversed so anti-vaxxers can have their cake and eat it too. Sadly, the "vaccine reversal process" isn't entirely without risks, so doing this would be a tad unethical.

Quote
Bad science has an unsettling tendency to lead to hazardous consequences, as indicated by people willingly scrubbing themselves with a chemical that can lead to nausea, diarrhea, weakness, drowsiness, headaches and convulsions. Other supposed vaccine removal techniques include practices like cupping, an ancient medical method that involves creating suction on the skin; slicing up the injection site with a razor to remove the vaccine contents; trying to use syringes to "remove" an injection; and anything that can plausibly fit under the trending hashtag #vaccinedetox.

Anti-vaccine conspiracy theorists say you can "reverse" vaccines with Borax (https://www.salon.com/2021/11/16/anti-vaccine-conspiracy-theorists-say-you-can-reverse-your-vaccine-with-borax/), Salon.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 19, 2021, 11:46:34 am
According to Kylie Ward, the CEO of the Australian College of Nursing, around 20,000 nurses leave the profession every year.  That's a 5% churn rate; high, but not unexpected in a high-pressure, low-reward workforce.

The vaccine mandate has resulted in less than 1% of the nursing workforce leaving the profession.

One of my family members is a nurse and he's thriving in the current environment.  I guess it takes all types as well as individual employment arrangements.
Over 12000 jobs for nurses in Aus vacant, the problem with those 20000 leaving is you need the breakdown of who they are and what they do ie if they are ICU and ER for example then you wont be getting the replacements from the Grad sector.
I keep hearing all this BS about getting Nurses from the UK to fill the gaps here in Aus, this is where people not involved in the health care sector have no idea as there are around 37000 vacancies in the UK for Nurses so its a worldwide problem.
Its no secret in the industry either that agencies send non specialist agency nurses to fill specialist Nursing positions just to get the business and its because they just dont have those extra qualified nurses on their books.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 19, 2021, 12:02:58 pm
Anti-vaccine conspiracy theorists say you can "reverse" vaccines with Borax (https://www.salon.com/2021/11/16/anti-vaccine-conspiracy-theorists-say-you-can-reverse-your-vaccine-with-borax/), Salon.
We should invest in salt therapy centres and start a rumour it draws out the vaccine!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 19, 2021, 12:10:13 pm
I'm sure this video will be of interest to fans and non fans of Ivermectin....
I like him generally, but he has become a bit east/west since his own health scare, and especially when he buys into the political / corporate stuff. He spent a whole video recently countering with people who have critiqued some of his own work, something in the past he would have just ignored.
 
When you analyse it you can take this recent stuff either way, that he is claiming that if the new Pfizer works then Ivermectin should work, or that he is claiming we know Ivermectin doesn't work so the new Pfizer drug won't. He implies all this without actually stating it, is he being deliberately ambiguous?

At a deep level you can even find some ghastly mistakes in that recent video, that I have to wonder are they accidental or deliberate.

Maybe like we discussed in another thread on another issue, it's perhaps time for a good nap!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 19, 2021, 12:52:30 pm
The interesting thing is that he isn't a Doctor. He has a Ph.D in nurse education, but I'm guessing most assume he's a doctor of medicine when they view his videos. He's apparently working as a nurse, and I'm guessing that they don't call him Dr Campbell when he's working.

That's not to say his stuff is to be discounted just because he isn't a medical doctor. After all, nurses have medical qualifications too and a nurse educator would need to be able to understand relevant recent research and make it easily digestible by a wide range of nurses. They would, of necessity, be more academically-oriented than nurses in general practice (and he has a number of post-grad qualifications). And he does do a good job of explaining matters to those of us who aren't health workers.

However, if the plaintiffs in NSW and Victorian challenges to the vaccine mandate sought to rely upon his expert evidence, he'd be blown out of the water by the respective States' experts.

And I was waiting for him to consider whether Ivermectin transcended the "good idea in theory" and became a viable prophylactic in practice. Maybe he did do this in other videos, but this is the main event. I wonder how we would explain the fact that decent studies have shown Ivermectin doesn't work any better than placebos and whether he'd agree that the only studies that suggest otherwise are tainted by poor methodology or outright fraud.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 19, 2021, 02:15:15 pm
Over 12000 jobs for nurses in Aus vacant, the problem with those 20000 leaving is you need the breakdown of who they are and what they do ie if they are ICU and ER for example then you wont be getting the replacements from the Grad sector.
I keep hearing all this BS about getting Nurses from the UK to fill the gaps here in Aus, this is where people not involved in the health care sector have no idea as there are around 37000 vacancies in the UK for Nurses so its a worldwide problem.
Its no secret in the industry either that agencies send non specialist agency nurses to fill specialist Nursing positions just to get the business and its because they just dont have those extra qualified nurses on their books.


My ex-sister in law, as a senior nurse, used to make regular trips to India to recruit nurses for the mental health area.  She would sign up 100s on each trip.  If the pay and conditions are better, they will come - but it does leave the donor country short.

My daughter worked in the UK health system, where she was authorised to do far more than her qualifications permit in Australia.  If her experience is anything to go by, lots of UK nurses would jump at the chance to work in our system, flawed as it is.  Indeed, a couple of the nurses I spoke to when Mrs DJC was in ICU recently had come from the UK and Sri Lanka.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 19, 2021, 03:59:46 pm
I wonder how we would explain the fact that decent studies have shown Ivermectin doesn't work any better than placebos and whether he'd agree that the only studies that suggest otherwise are tainted by poor methodology or outright fraud.
I think the issue of what studies have shown is now vastly over-debated given what happened in Brazil and India, the studies just proved that even if the Ivermectin used in India and Brazil was dodgy, as the Ivermectin boosters claimed to counter the Brazil and India fails, it would make no difference because the real stuff is NFG anyway!

The fat lady has sung, Ivermectin is a COVID spud, but probably still useful for some related comorbidity!

The problem is Norbits won't differentiate between protease inhibitors, but a chunk of supersonic lead is a protease inhibitor, as is borax and the waters of the Dead Sea! Perhaps the best protease inhibitor is dying of COVID, that puts a dead stop to it!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 19, 2021, 04:36:53 pm
I started watching another youtube video from the same guy but I couldn't believe what a tosser he is, so I stopped watching. I'll force myself to go back to it later maybe.

His aim was to debunk a BBC article and his first gambit was to mock the journalists.
Quote
On a completely separate matter, I've had a bit of a bad tummy lately, I must say. I'll tell you what I'm going to do, I'm going to a journalist to get it properly diagnosed. They'll know what's wrong with me. Can you imagine it: you're going for an operation and someone walks up to you wearing green scrubs and says' "I'm Mr Smith. I'm a journalist and I'm going to be doing your anaesthetic and this is Mrs Patel, she's the journalist and she'll be doing the operation." I don't think so! These people are journalists, and as far I can see they're just journalists; they're not science graduates, they're not doctors, and yet they seem to have this great wisdom they kindly bestow on the rest of us, so that's nice ... 

He then takes a swipe at the study that was the basis for the article as the lead author was a 'student' (although he begrudgingly acknowledged the other authors seem to be well qualified). Given that the study was about documenting the evident duplication of patient data and evident fraud in preprints and the refusal of the authors of other preprints to reveal their data, what the hell has that got to do with the price of fish in China. But he says that using the word fraud isn't nice, so there.

Reality check: what a self-own! If I turned up to have an operation and Nurse Johnnie was going to be my anaesthetist or surgeon, I'd be off like a shot. And the "student' was a doctoral candidate, and it's safe to conclude he'll match Nurse Johnnie's Ph.D very shortly.  

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 19, 2021, 04:46:25 pm
Reality check: what a self-own! If I turned up to have an operation and Nurse Johnnie was going to be my anaesthetist or surgeon, I'd be off like a shot. And the "student' was a doctoral candidate, and it's safe to conclude he'll match Nurse Johnnie's Ph.D very shortly.
Yes, no doubt he's fallen off the sensible wagon lately, not sure why, maybe that health issue was a tad bit more serious than Bali Belly!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 19, 2021, 05:06:00 pm
I started watching another youtube video from the same guy but I couldn't believe what a tosser he is, so I stopped watching. I'll force myself to go back to it later maybe.

His aim was to debunk a BBC article and his first gambit was to mock the journalists.
He then takes a swipe at the study that was the basis for the article as the lead author was a 'student' (although he begrudgingly acknowledged the other authors seem to be well qualified). Given that the study was about documenting the evident duplication of patient data and evident fraud in preprints and the refusal of the authors of other preprints to reveal their data, what the hell has that got to do with the price of fish in China. But he says that using the word fraud isn't nice, so there.

Reality check: what a self-own! If I turned up to have an operation and Nurse Johnnie was going to be my anaesthetist or surgeon, I'd be off like a shot. And the "student' was a doctoral candidate, and it's safe to conclude he'll match Nurse Johnnie's Ph.D very shortly.  

 
Sorry to tell you but a nurse anaesthetist in many cases is responsible for administering anaesthesia before a surgical procedure. Its the next level up from ICU Nursing and usually another three years of hard yakka to qualify. Think there is a national exam to be passed also to get registration.
Not easy to get into and you usually get offered rather than apply via surgeon recommendations and working as a surgical nurse, Probably the best paid of the nursing jobs, lot of work in delivery of babies, smaller procedures etc, cosmo stuff etc...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 19, 2021, 05:37:16 pm
Sorry to tell you, Nurse Johnnie aint a nurse anaesthetist.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 20, 2021, 07:28:07 am
Austria announced a full lockdown and compulsory vaccination, not many holdouts left, winter is coming!

While hoping it won't happen, any local business not planning for more lockdown around March or April next year is just crazy, they need to become preppers because at some point in this the Fed's are going to stop the breast feeding!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 20, 2021, 11:35:31 am
https://youtu.be/w4sUuFBEo2g
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 20, 2021, 11:38:05 am
https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2021/antivirals-and-the-covid-treatment-landscape
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 20, 2021, 11:46:24 am
Pfizer are an order of magnitude better at marketing than the other drug companies, they seem more switched on to promoting stuff directly to the general public than the others who traditionally sell mostly to doctor and health officials.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 22, 2021, 10:27:01 am
Quote
Aussie TV icon Ernie Dingo has been hit with death threats after he stepped up to help Western Australia lift its lagging vaccination rates.
...

“People don’t sit down and talk a lot with our elders and that’s what the issue is,” Dingo told the ABC earlier this week.

“It’s a slow pace, when you sit down with the elders, you’ve got to sit through. You learn more by never asking a question. But in this case, we need to speed things up.”
https://www.news.com.au/entertainment/celebrity-life/ernie-dingo-targeted-by-antivaxxers-hit-with-death-threats-over-covid-vaccination-campaign/news-story/c389f57a262e880a6b94857eef54bb8a

Fair enough if people don't want to get vaccinated, they will pay the price ... but why do they resort to threats of violence to stop the provision of factual information and encouragement of our most vulnerable folk to vaccinate?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 22, 2021, 10:36:08 am
Why are governments threatening people who don't get vaccinated?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 22, 2021, 10:49:26 am
Why are governments threatening people who don't get vaccinated?

The far more pertinent question is why are businesses doing just that !!  They set the tone.  They have that right.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 22, 2021, 11:03:44 am
Why are governments threatening people who don't get vaccinated?


Threatening?  Isn't it just providing a choice; get vaccinated and this lot of restrictions will no longer apply?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 22, 2021, 11:04:14 am
The far more pertinent question is why are businesses doing just that !!  They set the tone.  They have that right.

Economics.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 22, 2021, 11:42:56 am
Economics.


Hardly ... certainly not the airlines.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 22, 2021, 12:18:10 pm
Economics.
Yes, the cost of enforcement is trivial compared the cost of fines, or even worse the cost of yet another lockdown.

But I fear we'll be very very lucky to avoid what is happening in Europe at the moment, regardless!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 22, 2021, 01:05:31 pm
So it seems in breaking news that Gladys Burythemall actually did!

To enact the tactics and half-ar5ed restrictions some have lauded her for, which resulted in the NSW mess and the spread, she basically ignored the official health department recommendations which were ironically quite similar to those enacted in Victoria.

Now if we did that it would be a fine or a prosecution!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 22, 2021, 01:10:19 pm
Hardly ... certainly not the airlines.

Professor Simon Loertscher, Director, Centre for Market Design,University of Melbourne, and Dr Ellen Muir, Stanford University, have a different view:

Quote
As a direct result of the ongoing global pandemic, we are living with an economic downturn whose scope and magnitude is staggering.

Governments around the world, including the Australian government, face a difficult balancing act – managing a serious public health crisis without causing economic and social devastation.
...

Managing the dynamics of a dangerous pandemic isn’t a familiar or comfortable experience for economists and policy makers. But neither is it a comfortable experience for epidemiologist to entertain the idea of tolerating some level of spread for a deadly disease. This is uncharted territory for all.

Given the stakes, we need to find our path fast, and learn on the go.

This crisis is different from any other in living memory. It requires adaptive thinking that accounts for complex tradeoffs between managing the pandemic and managing economic and social well-being.

This can be achieved by targeting an appropriately chosen constraint, like the capacity of the healthcare system.

Implementing this approach requires that we build new models that combine economic and epidemiological data, and collect accurate data concerning the course of the epidemic through widespread testing.

The challenge is formidable but the concerted, whole-hearted and decisive effort defeated fascism eighty years ago – so there is no reason to believe we have to surrender to this virus, or the inevitable pandemics to come in the future.
https://fbe.unimelb.edu.au/newsroom/the-economics-of-covid-19

Of course, the most compelling evidence is the fact that enterprises are happily complying with government mandates or, in many cases, pre-empting them or going beyond the mandated requirements.  For example, Alan Joyce led the way in announcing that all QANTAS passengers must be fully vaccinated.  The economic imperative is to keep COVID under control.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 22, 2021, 01:18:01 pm
The economic imperative is to keep COVID under control.
It's going to become even more divisive in the long term, at the moment it's basically a minority pushing back against the restrictive social and commercial measures. But I fear we'll be in for a lot more trouble when the vast majority get sick of being dragged into restrictions by what they perceive as the actions a handful, even if those actions only have a trivial effect it won't be human nature to judge it as such.

People need to have something to blame!

COVID is what COVID does and the measures are obviously about limit the damage not finding a cure, so I fear some unscrupulous authorities may also finger-point to distract the majority from the imperfect solutions. The last thing authorities need is more people pushing back against vaccines and boosters, God help the health system, even with a high uptake it's still strained!

The Feds have a lot to answer for, they've delivered the message very poorly, and I'm sure any moment in the sun they might find won't last! They have sold people a cure when no cure exists, there never has been and probably never will be a long lasting cure or immunity for a coronavirus, if such a thing existed it should have already evolved by now naturally! Evolution has probably already tested every variation we can either discover or invent a million times over.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 22, 2021, 02:20:09 pm
Of course, the most compelling evidence is the fact that enterprises are happily complying with government mandates or, in many cases, pre-empting them or going beyond the mandated requirements.  For example, Alan Joyce led the way in announcing that all QANTAS passengers must be fully vaccinated.  The economic imperative is to keep COVID under control.

IATA governed the rules, NOT Qantas and not the Feds !!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 22, 2021, 02:42:51 pm
Didnt Joyce plan to sack all the ground staff then try and hire staff again at reduced rates and conditions through an external provider and wants a RyanAir model airline? All this after taking the Government money....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 22, 2021, 04:33:50 pm
Didnt Joyce plan to sack all the ground staff then try and hire staff again at reduced rates and conditions through an external provider and wants a RyanAir model airline? All this after taking the Government money....

He did @ElwoodBlues1 ... but I believe it was targeted at outsourcing the handling (catering / ground crew / marshallers / fuelling / baggage load and unload) to competitive bids.

Catering for example is hardly done by any airline anymore. 

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on November 22, 2021, 05:06:33 pm
Why do the government make it so bloody hard to get a vaccine certificate!?! Tried to get one for my daughter today, apparently if they're over 14 you can't do it on their behalf.   Then the Muppet I dealt with didn't even know the operating hours of the service.  What a sh1t show.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 22, 2021, 05:49:56 pm
Why do the government make it so bloody hard to get a vaccine certificate!?! Tried to get one for my daughter today, apparently if they're over 14 you can't do it on their behalf.   Then the Muppet I dealt with didn't even know the operating hours of the service.  What a sh1t show.
You should get a printed certificate when you get your second jab IMO via your medicare number....was in Kmart today and an older couple didnt have a phone setup with the app and had no idea about the printed version either. Like I have said before it you are going to mandate vaccinations and want certificates/proof then make it easy for folk who are older or not tech savvy.
You get the jab and you walk out with your proof on the spot....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 22, 2021, 06:05:57 pm
IATA governed the rules, NOT Qantas and not the Feds !!

Joyce was one of the first airline CEOs to promote the idea of a vaccination passport for air travel.  This time last year, the Murdoch media got stuck into Joyce for proposing mandatory vaccination for airline travelers and claimed that it wouldn't work.  That was well before the IATA had developed a position/policy on vaccinations.  It had introduced a passenger spacing model that wasn't accepted by all member airlines (around 80% of the world's airlines are members).

See: https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/health-safety/why-alan-joyces-no-covid-vaccine-no-fly-rule-wont-work/news-story/0dadc0ce814fa17685bbb6f219e6acab?utm_source=SEM&utm_medium=PPC_SEM&utm_campaign={campaign}&gclid=Cj0KCQiA-eeMBhCpARIsAAZfxZATiyvSfv1ZZ0LA0nbY07M50_duxpiuj6Aq84N2GLAlnMdZrvjgeiQaAjEzEALw_wcB

I wonder if they're still convinced that mandatory vaccination for airline travelers won't work.

IATA set up the vaccination passport model and app for its members.  However, it doesn't make the regulations for individual airlines or nations.  The Federal Government decides who comes to Australia and under what conditions.  Similarly, QANTAS determines what's best for its business, not IATA.  Have a look at the IATA website to see the travel restrictions map and the range of restrictions imposed by governments, ours included.

QANTAS also has a vaccination bonus program for its frequent flyers and it was the first major Australian company to mandate vaccination for its workforce.  That's not altruism, it's all about profits, as well as Australian workplace laws.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 22, 2021, 06:30:00 pm
Joyce was one of the first airline CEOs to promote the idea of a vaccination passport for air travel.  This time last year, the Murdoch media got stuck into Joyce for proposing mandatory vaccination for airline travelers and claimed that it wouldn't work.  That was well before the IATA had developed a position/policy on vaccinations.  It had introduced a passenger spacing model that wasn't accepted by all member airlines (around 80% of the world's airlines are members).

See: https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/health-safety/why-alan-joyces-no-covid-vaccine-no-fly-rule-wont-work/news-story/0dadc0ce814fa17685bbb6f219e6acab?utm_source=SEM&utm_medium=PPC_SEM&utm_campaign={campaign}&gclid=Cj0KCQiA-eeMBhCpARIsAAZfxZATiyvSfv1ZZ0LA0nbY07M50_duxpiuj6Aq84N2GLAlnMdZrvjgeiQaAjEzEALw_wcB

I wonder if they're still convinced that mandatory vaccination for airline travelers won't work.

IATA set up the vaccination passport model and app for its members.  However, it doesn't make the regulations for individual airlines or nations.  The Federal Government decides who comes to Australia and under what conditions.  Similarly, QANTAS determines what's best for its business, not IATA.  Have a look at the IATA website to see the travel restrictions map and the range of restrictions imposed by governments, ours included.

QANTAS also has a vaccination bonus program for its frequent flyers and it was the first major Australian company to mandate vaccination for its workforce.  That's not altruism, it's all about profits, as well as Australian workplace laws.

You are so wide of the mark, it's a joke.  You clearly know nothing about global alliances, interline, GDS reservations distribution and the massive interface between carriers across the world.

Without the QF designator, Qantas is effectively dead.  Joyce proposed vaccination passports VERY early in the piece when there were no intnl ops.  By international concurrence, they will become part of the airport structures for check in just as passports have done in the past.  IATA have now introduced rules which will quickly require  compliance.

But hey, I only did this for 42 years. what would I know?  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 24, 2021, 04:31:13 pm
You are so wide of the mark, it's a joke.  You clearly know nothing about global alliances, interline, GDS reservations distribution and the massive interface between carriers across the world.

Without the QF designator, Qantas is effectively dead.  Joyce proposed vaccination passports VERY early in the piece when there were no intnl ops.  By international concurrence, they will become part of the airport structures for check in just as passports have done in the past.  IATA have now introduced rules which will quickly require  compliance.

But hey, I only did this for 42 years. what would I know? ::)


Indeed! 

IATA did not and cannot "govern" the rules.  The Federal Government determines whether folk can enter the country and QANTAS determines the rules for its staff and passengers.  IATA's vaccine passport, as proposed by Joyce, is a tool its affiliates use.  The Federal Government will permit unvaccinated passengers to be carried under certain conditions, passenger caps, quarantine, etc.  QANTAS may agree or decline to carry such passengers.  Not all airlines and not all governments have the same requirements and Spain, Mexico, Croatia, Madeira, Greece, Cyprus, Slovenia, India and the UAR do not require those entering their countries to be vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 24, 2021, 04:47:38 pm
Id rather have AZ next time around, but we are being given 0 option.
@Thryleon‍, looks like you are on the money.

Recent reports suggest in the latest wave older people who had AZ in the UK are faring much much better than their Pfizer or Moderna jabbed mainland European counterparts.

Science had already suggested that for some reason the Adenovirus vaccine produced a much stronger T-Cell response than the mRNA version, I gather the latest COVID wave across Europe proves it. I suppose one day science will work out why.

In the meantime, I think it's best to be cross vaccinated, as the latest studies suggest cross vaccination, or even the possibility of getting a mild Sars-CoV-2 infection while fully vaccinated, delivers a superior result to just having more of the same.

I suppose if we ignore those who get no benefit from the vaccines, and also ignore the unvaccinated, that is a pretty strong argument for opening up now, but it won't help the health system. Unfortunately, it's immoral to do so!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on November 24, 2021, 06:04:42 pm
https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/1033137///?fbclid=IwAR3iX_i1EUFmrB9Y_O8EqQlJ0-nCIFpuCeuW8Psp4Cf8P1KYVy_ev14XJeo

Brian Cook is feeling positive…
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 24, 2021, 06:13:11 pm
Indeed! 

IATA did not and cannot "govern" the rules.  The Federal Government determines whether folk can enter the country and QANTAS determines the rules for its staff and passengers.  IATA's vaccine passport, as proposed by Joyce, is a tool its affiliates use.  The Federal Government will permit unvaccinated passengers to be carried under certain conditions, passenger caps, quarantine, etc.  QANTAS may agree or decline to carry such passengers.  Not all airlines and not all governments have the same requirements and Spain, Mexico, Croatia, Madeira, Greece, Cyprus, Slovenia, India and the UAR do not require those entering their countries to be vaccinated.

A guy I work with is going to India next week and he needed to get a vaccine passport and he had to pay for his own covid test which ranges from $150-$400 depending on how quick he wants the result.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 27, 2021, 09:16:33 am
Oh boy ... WHO has declared the new Sth African variant as a Variant of Concern and named it Omicron.

It has made it's way quickly through the 1st 2 stages of classification: Variant under Monitoring (24/11/21), Variant of Interest (26/11/21) and now meets the criteria for a Variant of Concern:
Quote
Variants of Concern (VOC)
Working definition:
A SARS-CoV-2 variant that meets the definition of a VOI (see below) and, through a comparative assessment, has been demonstrated to be associated with one or more of the following changes at a degree of global public health significance:
  • Increase in transmissibility or detrimental change in COVID-19 epidemiology; OR
  • Increase in virulence or change in clinical disease presentation; OR
  • Decrease in effectiveness of public health and social measures or available diagnostics, vaccines, therapeutics.
 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 27, 2021, 09:47:24 am
Exactly what I said yesterday ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on November 27, 2021, 10:13:33 am
Looking to get my booster soon. Gee how time flies.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on November 27, 2021, 03:13:34 pm
Waste of time if that Omicron strain gets here
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on November 27, 2021, 03:16:19 pm
Oh boy ... WHO has declared the new Sth African variant as a Variant of Concern and named it Omicron.

It has made it's way quickly through the 1st 2 stages of classification: Variant under Monitoring (24/11/21), Variant of Interest (26/11/21) and now meets the criteria for a Variant of Concern:

By rights it should have been named Xi.

And was it not first found in Botswana from what I have read.

Not much to see in the new cases, new deaths data, but heck with double vaxxers showing a marked disdain for the 3rd shot booster, need some leverage to keep the sheeple under control....

Until Pfizermectin saves the day!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on November 27, 2021, 03:17:22 pm
Not sure about it being a waste of time, but yeah they seem pretty concerned that it might be capable of evading our current vaxx
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on November 27, 2021, 03:41:13 pm
And just for the record, this variant has been known since at least July:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/07/how-scientists-detect-new-covid-19-variants/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on November 27, 2021, 03:58:25 pm
And just for the record, this variant has been known since at least July:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/07/how-scientists-detect-new-covid-19-variants/

Are you telling me that they didn't release it yesterday... that they've been stockpiling it for months ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on November 28, 2021, 08:13:58 am
Are you telling me that they didn't release it yesterday... that they've been stockpiling it for months ?

Stockpiling isn't the right word, but this one has clearly been chosen (out of how many, literally thousands of mutations/variants?) to be the next go to scare everyone thing.

Commentary out of SA suggests it causes only mild illness....though there will be outliers of course.

“So far we’ve seen very mild cases… I’m not sure why everyone is up in arms.”

Angelique Coetzee, chair of the South African Medical Association.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1464678499193700352

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on November 28, 2021, 09:46:00 am
Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water..........cue Jaws music!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 28, 2021, 10:32:41 am
We have the means to determine the nationality of every passenger on inbound operations.  That Qatar plane should have not been allowed to deboard.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 28, 2021, 11:27:03 am
https://au.yahoo.com/news/new-omicron-strain-found-in-three-more-countries-scary-221516591.html

I wouldnt be planning any overseas holidays.......Dan will be dusting off the lockdown button.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 28, 2021, 11:51:19 am
So we've alienated a whole subset of society for relatively nought?  Who would have thunk it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 28, 2021, 11:52:20 am
Before the usual suspects chime in, have a think about the number of people who felt coerced into this vaccine and what they might think next time around.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on November 28, 2021, 12:24:11 pm
Yes, we should have let it rip until the most dangerous variant emerged - no lockdowns, no masks, no social distancing . Then when we were confident Covid could get no worse, we should have waited for the scientists to come up with a vaccine or treatment for it. That's best epidemiological practice right there. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on November 28, 2021, 12:49:29 pm
Why should they think differently next time around?  They know that at the moment they have the best available protection against the Delta strain, which is not going away any time soon.

My hope is that they have the mental capacity to understand that, just like the emergence of new strains of the flu virus every year requiring a jab of a varied vaccine, the same procedure will likely be needed every year with Covid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on November 28, 2021, 12:57:13 pm
A question or two for those who have studied this a bit.

Once a new variant becomes dominant does that  eventually mean that the previous strain dies out.
How many folks still get the Alpha strain these days.
Will the Omicron mean the demise of Delta?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on November 28, 2021, 01:11:54 pm
Stockpiling isn't the right word, but this one has clearly been chosen (out of how many, literally thousands of mutations/variants?) to be the next go to scare everyone thing.

Commentary out of SA suggests it causes only mild illness....though there will be outliers of course.

“So far we’ve seen very mild cases… I’m not sure why everyone is up in arms.”

Angelique Coetzee, chair of the South African Medical Association.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1464678499193700352



Why cant there be a new variant that doesn't involve a conspiracy Fly ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 28, 2021, 01:55:40 pm
A question or two for those who have studied this a bit.

Once a new variant becomes dominant does that  eventually mean that the previous strain dies out.
How many folks still get the Alpha strain these days.
Will the Omicron mean the demise of Delta?
@Lods

It's not that the other strains disappear, it's just that the newer faster spreading strains are more dominant, and as the first in can lead to some immunity/resistance against the other strains. They basically compete to occupy the same space.

So far Omicrons concern isn't that it's more deadly, the main issue is that previous Sars-CoV-2 infections offer zero immunity to it.

Vaccine efficacy against Omicron is not yet known because the areas most affected by Omicron have very low vaccine uptake due to short supplies. Something the WHO warned the world about when Western Governments started booster vaccines rather than sharing the resource. We aren't safe until we are all safe, a fact vaccine deniers ignore!

Omicron is shown to mutate very aggressively / quickly, as such it's a potential source of new strains.

While that might not be an issue for people who are mildly affected, people with vulnerabilities and long COVID symptoms could be in severe strife! It's a chook raffle, there are those who think it's OK to spin the big wheel, I suppose they also think The Hunger Games or Soylent Green might be our real future!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 28, 2021, 02:05:20 pm
Why cant there be a new variant that doesn't involve a conspiracy Fly ?
@northernblue

Apparently you are the conspiracy eater, and "they" are the oracles of truth!

Who knows, a few hundred more variants and they might find one that is vulnerable to Ivermectin, then you'll be in trouble because they were right all along. They just knew it! :)

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/44/7b/af/447baf0cc4c23d49d3ec8efdb7db4a49.jpg)

Perhaps you need to book some time with the Oracle, so you can see the truth,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAXtO5dMqEI
There is no virus, it's you that infects! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 28, 2021, 09:59:33 pm
Yes, we should have let it rip until the most dangerous variant emerged - no lockdowns, no masks, no social distancing . Then when we were confident Covid could get no worse, we should have waited for the scientists to come up with a vaccine or treatment for it. That's best epidemiological practice right there. 

No just didn't need to ostracise everyone and force people who were hesitant into getting vaccinated of fear of being a social outcast.

Look at Liam Jones as an example.  Not even a pre season complete and its going to be irrelevant whether he got vaccinated or not but he's had to retire, leave us with a gaping hole in defense and he's missing out on 400k etdtimated at minimum.

No one has been victorious in that scenario.

Keep in mind im double vaxxed and im going for my booster Jan 6th.

Why?  I work in a hospital and my risk profile is different to average Joe.


The measures, fine.  The vaccines fine.  The vaccine mandate and draconian response?  Not fine.  No where near fine. A massive issue, and one that has guaranteed that if there is another vaccine required a bigger portion are going to skip it irrespective of vaccine mandates. 

The noise in the city is growing larger not smaller.

You guys are too arrogant thinking you know better.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on November 28, 2021, 10:22:48 pm
No just didn't need to ostracise everyone and force people who were hesitant into getting vaccinated of fear of being a social outcast.

Look at Liam Jones as an example.  Not even a pre season complete and its going to be irrelevant whether he got vaccinated or not but he's had to retire, leave us with a gaping hole in defense and he's missing out on 400k etdtimated at minimum.

No one has been victorious in that scenario.

Keep in mind im double vaxxed and im going for my booster Jan 6th.

Why?  I work in a hospital and my risk profile is different to average Joe.


The measures, fine.  The vaccines fine.  The vaccine mandate and draconian response?  Not fine.  No where near fine. A massive issue, and one that has guaranteed that if there is another vaccine required a bigger portion are going to skip it irrespective of vaccine mandates. 

The noise in the city is growing larger not smaller.

You guys are too arrogant thinking you know better.

Do you really believe that if a further vaccine shot is required the removal of mandates will result in fewer people skipping their jab than if mandates are retained?  If so, where is the proof either in Australia or worldwide?

Unlike you, I do not believe that people who hold views different from mine are either arrogant or know better.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 28, 2021, 11:10:58 pm
Israel have locked their international borders with only one case of the new variant, I think now we have to presume that any new arrival from another country is a potentially carrying the new strain whether they have been anywhere near Africa or not.
Not enough information at this stage to panic but just be more careful...our old friend Dr/Nurse John Campbell gave his latest analysis....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdkCVeWc1pQ
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 29, 2021, 08:18:30 am
Get you ar$e into gear Morrison.  NO MORE inbound flights that pick up South African passengers.  You Duckhead !!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on November 29, 2021, 08:25:48 am
No, he’ll just dither around until the states take the bull by the horns and then talk about “keeping people safe” and complain about the economic damage the states are doing and then at the next election he’ll go back to talking about keeping people safe again…
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 29, 2021, 08:28:09 am
Get you ar$e into gear Morrison.  NO MORE inbound flights that pick up South African passengers.  You Duckhead !!!
It's probably too late, it's already in at least a dozen countries outside of Africa, some of which we have an already established travel bubble like Singapore, in any case it looks like stopping travel either domestic or international doesn't really help much. It may change the when and even that is debatable, but it has no effect on the if!

There are already cases popping up in regions that have zero direct contact with Sth Africa, that means it was already circulating weeks ago as globally they only test a small percentage of cases!

The biggest influence you can have is social distancing, mask use and limiting gatherings. But if there is no public will to adhere to these guidelines then that is a massive problem, because it's just a paper trail and has little meaning.

It's interesting to observe, I have 1st hand contact with several dissenting objectors, they object to the masks, they object to the vaccines, they don't believe COVID is serious and object to the restrictions. But both got vaccinated and wore masks when COVID got close to home! Both stopped breaking the rules. The irony is this, the minute they were in the clear they went back to objecting, they can't help it, it is what they do, they are slaves to the conspiracy meme!

If you think the proposed laws were draconian, you might be seeing a whole new level in coming weeks and months simply because people won't adhere, and the money is running out!

I feel sorry for the health workers, they are the road kill resulting from the wilful disobedience.

I notice today there is a proposal to raise the Medicare levies for unvaccinated, what use is that if most of the wilful dissenters are already on welfare? The politicians have no idea what to do, all they can do is make new laws on pieces of paper, they seem unable to follow the science!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 29, 2021, 08:36:30 am
Just look at the vaccination rates in these African countries!!! ... few higher than 22%

Pretty effin' obvious.  Shoot, I'm angry.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 29, 2021, 08:40:10 am
Just look at the vaccination rates in these African countries!!! ... few higher than 22%

Pretty effin' obvious.  Shoot, I'm angry.
Have you had your booster, that would make 3 shots for you, most in Africa have 0?

It's not always about wilful dissent, sometimes it is about lack of opportunity. Pfizer, AZ, J&J, Moderna, Novavax, etc., etc., have all come out overnight making a joint statement and asked people to obey the rules, because they know that if the public can't behave in a manner that slows transmission the cause is lost. Those companies need the Western society to behave itself, so that they can direct the resources to the 3rd world. Instead we march!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 29, 2021, 08:49:07 am
That's no reason to allow any of them to fly, not when their destination is Australia.  Ban them and the airlines that carry them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on November 29, 2021, 09:54:53 am

It's interesting to observe, I have 1st hand contact with several dissenting objectors, they object to the masks, they object to the vaccines, they don't believe COVID is serious and object to the restrictions. But both got vaccinated and wore masks when COVID got close to home! Both stopped breaking the rules. The irony is this, the minute they were in the clear they went back to objecting, they can't help it, it is what they do, they are slaves to the conspiracy meme!


Never underestimate the power of human denial. Ignore-ance.

In my line of work we often come across a similar dynamic... eventually. Plenty of people (sadly, mostly males) who, when confronted with strong mental health issues/symptoms, do nothing. Why? Because, "If I don't see a shrink and I don't take medication, then I haven't got xyz." Yep, very real. How many blokes ignore enlarged prostate symptoms? Fear... and fear breeds ignorance.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on November 29, 2021, 10:48:13 am
@ Baggers
Denial is also a powerful driver Baggers. If something doesn't fit with a person's deeply held beliefs or is an inconvenient truth then denial can come into play, often for otherwise quite intelligent individuals.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 29, 2021, 10:48:26 am
Do you really believe that if a further vaccine shot is required the removal of mandates will result in fewer people skipping their jab than if mandates are retained?  If so, where is the proof either in Australia or worldwide?

I believe that when you make someone do something, anything that they are not sure about, their first inclination is to say, no.

I believe that these same people would suffer from FOMO, and that they would eventually roll up their sleeves and give in without a mandate because rightly or wrongly the virus is here to stay.

In essence, we drove a lot of people who would have gotten their vaccine away from making this decision, and simply recruited a bunch that got vaccinated reluctantly and as a future consequence, will likely end up with fewer protected when the time comes to roll up your sleeve again.

Quote
Unlike you, I do not believe that people who hold views different from mine are either arrogant or know better.

I entertain all ideas before I accept them.  Perhaps I am guilty of being ignorant to the large swathes of people out there, and that mandating was the best way to get it across the line, but I do know that a lot of the people who initially have rebelled are going to feel very vindicated if the vaccine doesn't do anything to curb the virus but now we have multiple issues to fight.

We now have a bunch of people who have no scope to earn an income, in a society that is largely vaccinated, facing the prospects of future mask wearing, and restrictions who are not going to do it.

The government will have a much larger group of people thumbing their noses at the rules, refusing to social distance, and will absolutely ditch the masks, and they will simply point to Omicron, the statistics, call everyone a bunch of sheeple for believing the government knows what its doing.


I stated this not long ago for a reason.  The quickest way to create an anti vaccer, is to mandate a vaccine.  To mandate a vaccine that has proven to be largely ineffective, is the quickest way to abuse the trust that those who had faith in you had.  That simpy means to larger alienation.

Remember the latest lockdown?  How tired of it everyone was, so they did as they pleased, and irrespective of what the scribes on here say, our journey with Delta is proving to be way more damaging, because of what we went through in 2020?

Those who are fail to learn the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them.  Our control measures are simply going to be ignored moving forward, because everyone is completely over it, and has had enough of it all, and next mandate possibly wont go as successfully as a consequence, and the shame in it is that if our journey with COVID to date is indicative of the future, things are only going to get worse.

Oh, and for anyone not paying attention, Omicron is already on our shores in hotel quarantine, and one of those passengers has already visited victoria over the weekend according to my gossip.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: sandsmere on November 29, 2021, 10:55:23 am
That's no reason to allow any of them to fly, not when their destination is Australia.  Ban them and the airlines that carry them.





Agree 100%.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 29, 2021, 10:56:00 am
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/victorian-authorities-investigate-suspected-omicron-case-as-state-records-1007-cases-three-deaths-20211129-p59cxy.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on November 29, 2021, 11:38:58 am
Does anyone happen to have a theory on why the latest variant of concern seems to have skipped over two of the Greek letters in the alphabet?

After Lambda, its Mu, Nu, Xi then Omicron, but they seem to have danced over two letters.

Popular opinion is because Xi (pronounced by the anglicized version sounding more like Gi phonetically) is because its remarkably similar sounding to the Chinese leaders name (Ji Jing Ping).

The stupidity in it, is thats actually pronounced Ksi, and sounds more like an X sound, so dont know why they would skip it, and why they bastardise the pronounciation of the Greek alphabet so much (Mu, is more of a Mi sound).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 29, 2021, 12:05:22 pm
The Who's second largest benefactor is China so we can't associate them with Covid origins by having names that make them upset can we...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 29, 2021, 12:23:54 pm
The Who's second largest benefactor is China so we can't associate them with Covid origins by having names that make them upset can we...

Heresy against doctrine @ElwoodBlues1 ... but the walking dead from Delaware will look after it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: tonyo on November 29, 2021, 12:27:00 pm
The biggest concern with the Omicron strain is the press hyperbole that follows it - the media scrum is creating their own spin which almost inevitably will be far worse than the reality.   That is more dangerous than the virus itself, as it will lead to an ill-informed public that demands that the politicians do something, and we don't need knee-jerk reactions right now.

Agree on stopping flights from Africa, but let's not all crawl back into our bunkers....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on November 29, 2021, 01:03:31 pm
Hope you see the humour in this, Thry.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 29, 2021, 01:08:14 pm
China isn't a WHO benefactor.  They make a substantial assessed contribution based on their GDP, as do all members, but they don't make a voluntary contribution.  WHO's major benefactors are the UK, Sweden, Norway and Australia so, if anyone's pulling strings, it's Boris (the UK's assessed and voluntary contributions exceed China's assessed contribution).  China doesn't give money away.

According to WHO: “‘Nu’ is too easily confounded with ‘new’, and ‘Xi’ was not used because it is a common last name ... best practices for naming disease suggest avoiding causing offence to any cultural, social, national, regional, professional or ethnic groups”.

In fact, Xi is the 708th most common surname, so I guess there's some merit to WHO's reasoning, but I wonder if they consulted with Ms Goodrem before naming the Delta strain  ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 29, 2021, 02:17:04 pm
If it was called "Trump" they wouldn't have thought twice about it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 29, 2021, 02:57:58 pm
China isn't a WHO benefactor.  They make a substantial assessed contribution based on their GDP, as do all members, but they don't make a voluntary contribution.  WHO's major benefactors are the UK, Sweden, Norway and Australia so, if anyone's pulling strings, it's Boris (the UK's assessed and voluntary contributions exceed China's assessed contribution).  China doesn't give money away.

According to WHO: “‘Nu’ is too easily confounded with ‘new’, and ‘Xi’ was not used because it is a common last name ... best practices for naming disease suggest avoiding causing offence to any cultural, social, national, regional, professional or ethnic groups”.

In fact, Xi is the 708th most common surname, so I guess there's some merit to WHO's reasoning, but I wonder if they consulted with Ms Goodrem before naming the Delta strain  ;)
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/china-who-multimillion-dollar-contribution-political-power-move-2020-4
The above is my point.....they suddenly got over generous when questions got asked and when the USA under Trump pulled money.
They manipulate when it suits their political agenda...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 29, 2021, 03:38:57 pm
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/china-who-multimillion-dollar-contribution-political-power-move-2020-4
The above is my point.....they suddenly got over generous when questions got asked and when the USA under Trump pulled money.
They manipulate when it suits their political agenda...


Even with that contribution (not yet listed on the WHO website), China is still well behind the UK and, presumably, the USA again, now that Aurangzeb has gone.   You're right, they don't give money away for nothing and they were quick to exploit the vacuum created by Aurangzeb, but their influence over the WHO isn't as great as they would like, and considerably less than the West.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 29, 2021, 05:52:26 pm
My son in law is a partner in a graphic/industrial design company.  They have been working from home until recently but all partners and staff returned to the office two weeks ago.

One of the team was an anti-vaxxer, as was his wife.  The wife's father is now very sick with COVID so they changed their minds and had their first shot.  I believe that the former anti-vaxxer remarked, "COVID is real!".  Unfortunately, the bloke became ill and tested positive for COVID.  He was infectious while at work so the entire company had to isolate and test.  My son in law and his other colleagues are all fully vaccinated and all tested negative on day 6 of isolation.  Their building was being deep-cleaned today and they're all working from home again.  The former anti-vaxxer is not seriously ill but he's not all that popular at the moment.  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on November 29, 2021, 05:59:23 pm

The Who's second largest benefactor is China so we can't associate them with Covid origins by having names that make them upset can we...

The Who haven't been any fun since Keith Moon died. :(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 29, 2021, 06:01:22 pm
My son in law is a partner in a graphic/industrial design company.  They have been working from home until recently but all partners and staff returned to the office two weeks ago.

One of the team was an anti-vaxxer, as was his wife.  The wife's father is now very sick with COVID so they changed their minds and had their first shot.  I believe that the former anti-vaxxer remarked, "COVID is real!".  Unfortunately, the bloke became ill and tested positive for COVID.  He was infectious while at work so the entire company had to isolate and test.  My son in law and his other colleagues are all fully vaccinated and all tested negative on day 6 of isolation.  Their building was being deep-cleaned today and they're all working from home again.  The former anti-vaxxer is not seriously ill but he's not all that popular at the moment.  ::)

They obviously don't know how it works.
J Brown and his radio co host both got it and spread despite being full vaxxed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on November 29, 2021, 06:26:54 pm
No just didn't need to ostracise everyone and force people who were hesitant into getting vaccinated of fear of being a social outcast.

Look at Liam Jones as an example.  Not even a pre season complete and its going to be irrelevant whether he got vaccinated or not but he's had to retire, leave us with a gaping hole in defense and he's missing out on 400k etdtimated at minimum.

No one has been victorious in that scenario.

Keep in mind im double vaxxed and im going for my booster Jan 6th.

Why?  I work in a hospital and my risk profile is different to average Joe.


The measures, fine.  The vaccines fine.  The vaccine mandate and draconian response?  Not fine.  No where near fine. A massive issue, and one that has guaranteed that if there is another vaccine required a bigger portion are going to skip it irrespective of vaccine mandates. 

The noise in the city is growing larger not smaller.

You guys are too arrogant thinking you know better.

A couple points on this.

1. Jones didn't HAVE to retire. He had a choice, he chose not to get vaccinated, which meant he couldn't play. He could've stayed on the list at minimum wage. He chose not to bother and retired.

2. re 'Draconian response'...
Of all the 'anti-vaxxers' and 'my body my choice-ers' what is one of their main gripes with the lockdown mandates? The damage it is doing to the people, mentally.....which is mainly due to the economic impacts of the lockdowns.
With that in mind, the AFL is a billion dollar industry which employs thousands of people. There is a risk that the whole AFL could be brought to its knees, putting 1000's out of work, costing millions etc etc.
The AFLW had its season cancelled (in finals no less!). The same thing can happen to the AFL.

To quote Star Trek...."The Needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few......or the one."
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 29, 2021, 07:23:35 pm
How did Omricon get in to the country when the unvaxxed can't come in?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 29, 2021, 08:14:53 pm
They obviously don't know how it works.
J Brown and his radio co host both got it and spread despite being full vaxxed.

Who doesn’t know how what works?

My son in law’s company followed the procedures to the letter and, despite a couple of days’ exposure to their infected colleague, escaped infection.  One of the partners is severely immuno-compromised.

The only mistake they made was allowing the former anti-vaxxer to attend the workplace until he was fully vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on November 29, 2021, 09:15:22 pm
How did Omricon get in to the country when the unvaxxed can't come in?
Why do you ask questions like this when you know the answer?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 29, 2021, 10:22:06 pm
How did Omricon get in to the country when the unvaxxed can't come in?
As you know, no vaccine is perfect, even if everybody gets vaccinated, people can still get infected. You have to think of the efficacy as a number that represents chance.

Surrounding yourself with infected people, not social distancing, not wearing a mask, is basically exposing yourself to more and more virus. Like playing the pokies, given enough spins you eventually get a jackpot but still lose overall, the math works against you! Some get the jackpot on the first spin, others can play years and not get a single one, but if they keep playing no matter what luck they've had in the past the math says they eventually lose!

btw., That is how the pokey money laundering works, they pump megabucks through the machines knowing full well they only get 85% of every dollar they feed in returned, that's the math at work. The minimum 15% they lose is the price they happily pay for the cleaners!

Just because you may be double vaccinated, do not gullibly think you are impervious to the virus, chance your hand enough and you will lose!

If a vaccine has 85% efficacy, it doesn't mean it protects 85 of every 100 people, that's the simplistic explanation we give the kiddies. What it really means is that every time you are exposed to an infectious dose you have 85% chance of being protected, or 15% chance of getting infected, every time you are chancing your luck!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 29, 2021, 10:38:59 pm
The Who haven't been any fun since Keith Moon died. :(
Only my generation would get that humour.....😉
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on November 29, 2021, 10:43:26 pm
And just for the record, this variant has been known since at least July:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/07/how-scientists-detect-new-covid-19-variants/

Fly, when did you first read this article ?
Did you read it in July 2021 or yesterday ?

The article spends most of its time discussing the Alpha and Delta mutations and the research and study of them.
I ask because I was reading an abc article where they quoted the SA Dr as saying she detected the Omicron mutation in early November 2021 when some peoples symptoms weren’t “classic”
I’m of the belief that the weforum.org has rehashed the July article and basically added the first 3 paragraphs to provide an updated perspective of the changes and mutations of virus, in particular Covid.

It’s a downside of the digital age… the written word can mutate faster than any virus. 🤣
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on November 29, 2021, 10:46:30 pm
The biggest concern with the Omicron strain is the press hyperbole that follows it - the media scrum is creating their own spin which almost inevitably will be far worse than the reality.   That is more dangerous than the virus itself, as it will lead to an ill-informed public that demands that the politicians do something, and we don't need knee-jerk reactions right now.

Agree on stopping flights from Africa, but let's not all crawl back into our bunkers....

Sure gather facts from your trusted news source, but the chief medical officers are the only ones anyone should be listening to, certainly not Slowmo and his mates/enemies
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 29, 2021, 10:47:13 pm
Who doesn’t know how what works?

My son in law’s company followed the procedures to the letter and, despite a couple of days’ exposure to their infected colleague, escaped infection.  One of the partners is severely immuno-compromised.

The only mistake they made was allowing the former anti-vaxxer to attend the workplace until he was fully vaccinated.

How is Omricon in the country?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on November 29, 2021, 10:52:30 pm
The Who haven't been any fun since Keith Moon died. :(

 :))  :))  :))

So that's why when the WHO are staying in motels they chain the TVs to the walls, and put bars on the windows! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 29, 2021, 10:55:18 pm
How is Omricon in the country?
They don't check for variants all the time, it could have already been here for weeks hiding in plain sight given most cases are mild!I

A traveller, a migratory bird, some goods, cargo, lots and lots of ways, it might even be naturally evolving at more than one location! Perhaps the precursors were already here!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 30, 2021, 12:05:13 am
How is Omricon in the country?

I think that the pertinent question is why wouldn't the Omicron variant in the country.  Vaccination isn't 100% proof against infection and Omicron is apparently more infectious than previous variants.  As we've seen recently, travelers to Australia from other parts of the world may have begun their journeys in southern Africa.  I'm not sure why the Commonwealth isn't requiring overseas travelers to quarantine, perhaps because we don't have the quarantine facilities we should have established at the start of the pandemic.

It seems that, while the Omicron strain is highly contagious, its symptoms are relatively mild.  This could be the virus mutating itself to the point where it's no longer a pandemic.  Here's hoping!

By the way, the suspected Omicron case in Victoria has turned out to be a false alarm.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 30, 2021, 12:20:08 am
Fly, when did you first read this article ?
Did you read it in July 2021 or yesterday ?

The article spends most of its time discussing the Alpha and Delta mutations and the research and study of them.
I ask because I was reading an abc article where they quoted the SA Dr as saying she detected the Omicron mutation in early November 2021 when some peoples symptoms weren’t “classic”
I’m of the belief that the weforum.org has rehashed the July article and basically added the first 3 paragraphs to provide an updated perspective of the changes and mutations of virus, in particular Covid.

It’s a downside of the digital age… the written word can mutate faster than any virus. 🤣

Yes, the version of the article with several sentences added to make reference to the omicron variant was published on 26 November 2021, shortly after the South African scientists identified the new variant.

Digital authors/publishers have a responsibility to maintain and explain version control.  Failure to do so means that the unwary disseminate fake news.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on November 30, 2021, 12:22:16 am
Only my generation would get that humour.....😉

I like what you did there EB  :)

First record I ever bought  8)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 30, 2021, 12:38:08 am
I like what you did there EB  :)

First record I ever bought  8)
Cheers DJ.....I remember going to watch Pinball Wizard with Roger Daltrey as part of an English class ,we went on the magic bus😉.
1st LP record I bought was Aqualung by Jethro Tull....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on November 30, 2021, 06:01:15 am
Only my generation would get that humour.....😉

You better you bet
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on November 30, 2021, 09:48:22 am
Cheers DJ.....I remember going to watch Pinball Wizard with Roger Daltrey as part of an English class ,we went on the magic bus😉.
1st LP record I bought was Aqualung by Jethro Tull....

Sorry to but in... Aqualung - classic. Ian Anderson, genius... and just a little dash of crazy.

Back on topic. Good to see a measure of backing off the alarmist stuff from the mainstream media on the new Covid strain. I'm trying not to be reductionist, dismissive or in denial of something that may become more nasty. But this state and its peoples are still in 'lockdown fatigue'.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 30, 2021, 10:15:08 am
They don't check for variants all the time, it could have already been here for weeks hiding in plain sight given most cases are mild!I

A traveller, a migratory bird, some goods, cargo, lots and lots of ways, it might even be naturally evolving at more than one location! Perhaps the precursors were already here!

Why can't you just give the real answer? Saying the fully vaccinated brought it in doesn't make you an anti vaxxer.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 30, 2021, 10:22:55 am
Why do you ask questions like this when you know the answer?

Why do we have to incorrectly blame anti vaxxers for spreading the virus?
It's not going to convince them, mocking them when they die actually has a better effect. The Herman Cain Awards have changed a few minds.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on November 30, 2021, 11:46:28 am
Sorry to but in... Aqualung - classic. Ian Anderson, genius... and just a little dash of crazy.

Back on topic. Good to see a measure of backing off the alarmist stuff from the mainstream media on the new Covid strain. I'm trying not to be reductionist, dismissive or in denial of something that may become more nasty. But this state and its peoples are still in 'lockdown fatigue'.

Saw a news segment yesterday on ABC where an 'expert' whose name I missed actually suggested that omicron could displace delta, which could be a good thing if it causes people to get a lot less sick even if it is more virulent.
I offer no personal opinion I hasten to add.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 30, 2021, 12:26:42 pm
Why can't you just give the real answer? Saying the fully vaccinated brought it in doesn't make you an anti vaxxer.
Vaccinated or unvaccinated that's a traveller, I don't discriminate! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 30, 2021, 12:29:04 pm
Why do we have to incorrectly blame anti vaxxers for spreading the virus?
@madbluboy Right here in OZ at the moment they make up for 95 out of every 100 hospitalised patients, it's a tell, and it's not discrimination it is just the truth!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 30, 2021, 12:32:41 pm
Vaccinated or unvaccinated that's a traveller, I don't discriminate! ;)

They were vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 30, 2021, 12:33:44 pm
@madbluboy Right here in OZ at the moment they make up for 95 out of every 100 hospitalised patients, it's a tell, and it's not discrimination it is just the truth!

Don't change the subject.

We're talking about catching and spreading the virus.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 30, 2021, 12:36:08 pm
Don't change the subject.

We're talking about catching and spreading the virus.
So you think hospitalisation rates aren't an indicator for catching and spreading the virus?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 30, 2021, 12:38:32 pm
So you think hospitalisation rates aren't an indicator for catching and spreading the virus?



No.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 30, 2021, 12:43:35 pm
At this stage they do not know all the possible vectors for Sars-CoV-2, for what it is worth they still do not know all the vectors for Sars-CoV-1 from back in 2003 and they never will now as the strain has gone extinct in the lab.

The idea people can debate the how and where a virus crossed a border is as rubbery as how it crossed a species or escaped a lab.

There are lots of spurious media or social media claims designed to stir trouble, the are nearly 100% wrong and rely on communicating ambiguously with only part of the full story.

An aside, they found Sars-CoV-2 on the seats and surfaces of mothballed airliners that had been parked in the desert for two weeks, something they said could not happen. Then they claim the sponsors product, your Amazon, Apple, Google or Ebay delivery, it's packaging, etc., etc., is completely safe and the virus can only come in via a person. One of those two facts must be a lie!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 30, 2021, 12:47:47 pm
Vaccinated people spread covid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 30, 2021, 12:48:52 pm
Vaccinated people spread covid.
All people spread Sars-CoV-2, some people will shed more virus than others.

COVID is the disease it causes.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 30, 2021, 12:55:22 pm
Australia has been in lockdown, non-essential travel banned, international arrivals and departures restricted, yet Caroline Wilson gets COVID while on a "European family holiday in Amsterdam."

Yet the media is all "Poor Poor Caroline!", we are supposed to feel pity, while most of us couldn't even get a haircut!

Is WIlson the epitome of White Female Privilege?

You'll hear crickets from the media about this, because the media is using the Arts and Entertainment Exemptions to escape travel bans, yet the media tell the general public we are bad and irresponsible and our actions cause lockdowns!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on November 30, 2021, 02:37:57 pm
Why do we have to incorrectly blame anti vaxxers for spreading the virus?
It's not going to convince them, mocking them when they die actually has a better effect. The Herman Cain Awards have changed a few minds.

Think you're pointing this at the wrong guy.

I'm saying people should get vaccinated. I'm not saying that vaccinated people can't transmit the disease.
Is it less likely they will get it? Yes.
Is it less likely they will transmit it? Yes.
Is it 100% foolproof? No, never said it was.

It doesn't change the argument though....get vaccinated and stop protesting the mandate to be vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 30, 2021, 02:40:19 pm
This continual bogus assertion in social media that the risk of transmission from unvaccinated and vaccinated is the same doesn't help.

Firstly it's an outright lie, secondly it makes some people think why bother getting vaccinated.

Getting vaccinated reduces your risk and also reduces the risk you transmit to those around you!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on November 30, 2021, 02:43:30 pm
Only my generation would get that humour.....😉
Who are you?....to suggest its a generational thing?
I'm not quite a spring chicken, but my eyes are good enough that I can see for miles and miles and miles and miles....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on November 30, 2021, 02:45:58 pm
Vaccinated people spread covid.

....and so do unvaccinated people.

Through shear weight of numbers, you are more likely to get it through an unvaccinated person at present....but thats because there is more of them and they are able to do more things, whereas unvaxxed have to sit at home and not socialise.

You are smart enough to understand all this, but for some reason you are playing the fool.....for what purpose i'm not sure.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 30, 2021, 02:46:11 pm
This continual bogus assertion in social media that the risk of transmission from unvaccinated and vaccinated is the same doesn't help.

Firstly it's an outright lie, secondly it makes some people think why bother getting vaccinated.

Getting vaccinated reduces your risk and also reduces the risk you transmit to those around you!

No it's an outright lie to blame the unvaccinated for spreading the virus.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 30, 2021, 03:44:52 pm
No it's an outright lie to blame the unvaccinated for spreading the virus.
Not at all, it's right to claim unvaccinated spread the virus more than vaccinated, and it's right to claim all people can transmit the virus, and it's also right to claim vaccinated transmit virus less than unvaccinated.

Your trying to build a case that vaccinated international travellers spread the virus, but they are quarantined on arrival still and have to isolate if they test positive during that quarantine period. It's a myth that is spread by the anti-vax movement that the virus travels globally and exclusively on the back of vaccinated people as the only way it moves about, so they can then claim that is proof vaccination is pointless, but the assertion they make is not accurate because it is based on cherry-picking. Ironic that they choose to discriminate when the protest claimed discrimination, hypocrites?

People travelling are heavily observed, they are documented and tracked, they are not how random cases pop-up and spread like a wildfire! As for Omicron it has popped up in people who are not travellers and have no traceable close contacts with people who have been to or are from Sth Africa. But that reality doesn't suit the anti-vax or anti-lockdown narrative because they can't find a vaccinated traveller to blame!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 30, 2021, 04:04:41 pm
No I said the vaccinated spread the virus. Stop spinning crap.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 30, 2021, 04:07:21 pm
No I said the vaccinated spread the virus. Stop spinning crap.
People know why you ask the questions you post, you're not innocent or naivé!

The readers get your assertions, this isn't The Three Stooges and you aren't Curly!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 30, 2021, 04:08:42 pm
People know why you ask the questions you post, you're not innocent or naivé!

I'm not innocent?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 30, 2021, 04:13:19 pm
I'm not innocent?
Making indirect assertions or inferences is not innocent, it's probably closer to passive-aggressive.

I'm not the first poster to debate this with you and I'm unlikely to be the last.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 30, 2021, 04:24:13 pm
I posted a fact that cannot be disputed.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 30, 2021, 04:31:50 pm
I get it, you're sitting watching someone else's chess game with your finger on the rook because it's the most important piece.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on November 30, 2021, 07:37:49 pm
No I said the vaccinated spread the virus. Stop spinning crap.


What is your next fact going to be?
Water is wet?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on November 30, 2021, 07:47:47 pm
What is your next fact going to be?
Water is wet?

Why does the truth bother you?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on November 30, 2021, 07:53:28 pm
Why does the truth bother you?

The truth doesn't bother me, your ingnorance does.

I have literally said the same thing myself before.....and again.

You are saying it like its the first time its ever been said. You may as well be saying you discovered electricity.
I'm happy for you to further your education in any way you can, but don't assume you are the only one who has that knowledge.
A lot of people got there a hell of a lot quicker than you.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 01, 2021, 12:56:07 pm
It makes a mockery of ostracising people from society who didnt get vaccinated, and I think thats the important part of MBB's post.

Personally this predates covid, but the insistence to save the ignorant from themelves these days is antithesis to natural  selection at work.

Whilst many wont agree with that, it is what it is.  Thats not to say dont make people take some precautions, but if you give them every chance to do the right thing, and they dont, then its literally their funeral.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 01, 2021, 01:26:17 pm
https://au.yahoo.com/news/moderna-vaccine-boss-issues-bleak-omicron-warning-000100373.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 01, 2021, 01:45:17 pm
Thats not to say dont make people take some precautions, but if you give them every chance to do the right thing, and they dont, then its literally their funeral.
I understand your defence of their free will, but the decision they make doesn't just hurt themselves, at a bare minimum it costs us all in the $$$$$$$$$ and potentially much more!

What though when a hospital ICU is full of unvaccinated COVID cases, and I believe the current percentages are still well over 95% of ICU COVID cases being unvaccinated or recently single vaccinated? (Is there is some irony in protestors getting wind of a close contact positive, then getting vaccinated at the last moment, but all too late?) The price might include some tax payer who did the right thing, got vaccinated, wore a mask, social distanced, didn't break the rules, may still perish because can't get an ambulance, or they are stuck on a trolley in the corridor having a stroke, anaphylaxis or heart attack while the unvaccinated are ventilated day after day, week after week, all at that dying tax payer's expense!

Isn't the preservation of rights symmetrical, do we only care for the protestor?

In the mainstream news and social media, it feels like the squeaky wheel is getting all the attention and setting the path for the rest of us!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 01, 2021, 01:47:24 pm
I can see Boosters being enforced especially with a tweaked vaccine/s to protect vs the new variant....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on December 01, 2021, 01:58:02 pm
It makes a mockery of ostracising people from society who didnt get vaccinated, and I think thats the important part of MBB's post.

Personally this predates covid, but the insistence to save the ignorant from themelves these days is antithesis to natural  selection at work.

Whilst many wont agree with that, it is what it is.  Thats not to say dont make people take some precautions, but if you give them every chance to do the right thing, and they dont, then its literally their funeral.

There is an element of self-preservation in trying to save the ignorant from themselves.

As an example: I can stand next to a morbidly obese person for as long as I want to and know that his/her condition will not affect me in any way, and I also know that if they continue stuffing their face daily with thousands of extra calories then natural selection will take its course sooner rather than later.

However, as I understand the message of the CHOs and epidemiologists, if I stand next to an unvaccinated person with Covid who refuses to believe he has the virus, then I am the one facing the real prospect of an early funeral.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 01, 2021, 02:09:04 pm
I suppose the dissenters will be dancing with joy over the news Greg Hunt is a retire, they'll almost certainly spin it as a win.

But will any of the cynics, sceptics, dissenters and protestors ponder what might force a career politician to look into the near future and decide they are getting out of the game?

A thoughtful Joe Average might rightly be concerned, unexpected political retirements are becoming a worrying trend!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on December 01, 2021, 03:59:52 pm
The Greek Government is introducing a recurring monthly fine of 100 Euros for unvaccinated over 60s.

Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis said the fine was necessary to protect more than half a million unvaccinated elderly Greeks.  However, it seems that increased pressure on a frail healthcare system is a major factor.

While many governments have made COVID vaccinations mandatory for workers in the health industry and other sectors, Greece is the first country to mandate vaccination for an age group.  An interesting development  :-\
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 01, 2021, 04:09:03 pm
^^

Its elliciting the exact opposite reaction.  This could be revolutionary.  I see it amongst the comments of my relatives.

I keep telling people this but they dont seem to want to hear it.

Also, the Greek government has historically been extremely relaxed regarding implementing fines and penalties but that is a very side argument to this. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on December 01, 2021, 04:36:00 pm
The mandating of medical treatments and procedures would be a very worrying development, at least for me anyway.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on December 01, 2021, 05:51:32 pm
It makes a mockery of ostracising people from society who didnt get vaccinated, and I think thats the important part of MBB's post.

Personally this predates covid, but the insistence to save the ignorant from themelves these days is antithesis to natural  selection at work.

Whilst many wont agree with that, it is what it is.  Thats not to say dont make people take some precautions, but if you give them every chance to do the right thing, and they dont, then its literally their funeral.

The problem with the 'natural selection' logic is that its not just themselves its hurting.
If they want to jump off a cliff to prove they can fly, don't try and stop them.
If they want to not get vaccinated, then that effects others who can't or are high risk, it hurts the economy when we go into lockdown. It hurts those who need medical attention but beds, nurses and resources are taken up by them.

So i don't mind your logic, it just can't be applied in this instance IMO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on December 01, 2021, 09:55:21 pm
^^

Its elliciting the exact opposite reaction.  This could be revolutionary.  I see it amongst the comments of my relatives.

I keep telling people this but they dont seem to want to hear it.

Also, the Greek government has historically been extremely relaxed regarding implementing fines and penalties but that is a very side argument to this. 

The thing is that the Greek health system was barely coping before COVID.  It's in dire straits now and will only get worse as the next wave hits.  Fining people for not vaccinating may be an extreme and counter-productive measure but the logic behind the decision is clear.

I reckon they'd get a better response if they used positive reinforcement rather than punitive measures.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 02, 2021, 02:17:15 pm
It's a funny thing, we still read lots of debate about AZ vs Pfizer with people dancing on the grave of the AZ vaccine.

Now as more Pfizer related cases of Myocarditis or Pericarditis surface, it seems as was always the true case, that the risk differential between AZ and Pfizer is now negligible, yet there is still very little noise on social media about Pfizer side-effects excluding the odd mainstream media story that surfaces. This is odd, because it looks like the risk of Myocarditis or Pericarditis doesn't diminish with each shot of MRNA vaccine (Pfizer or Moderna), the risk is basically the same with each and every shot.

This is not the same as AZ, Novavax, J&J or the others, they report most reactions on the first dose, and greatly reduced risk of side-effects on the 2nd or 3rd dose.

I suspect social media doesn't like taking a backwards step when reality exposes it's claims as a simply wrong!

Locally and in the UK, some people seem to be fairing much better than others when it comes to break through infections, and it simply looks to be because they were issued with AZ.

I think the smart bet would be, if you've had Pfizer get AZ as your booster or perhaps Novavax, and if you've already had AZ then have another one or have Novavax!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 02, 2021, 08:17:25 pm
Another candidate in the anti-vaxxer Darwin Awards:

Anti-vax televangelist dies after using "protocols" his TV network promoted to treat COVID (https://www.salon.com/2021/12/01/anti-vax-televangelist-dies-after-using-protocols-his-tv-network-promoted-to-treat/), Salon.

The 64 year old founder of Daystar, the world's 2nd-largest Christian TV network, Marcus Lamb, has died of Covid after railing against vaccines and promoting bogus treatments.

Quote
Lamb's wife, Joni, said on the network Tuesday that her husband, who also had diabetes, "got the COVID pneumonia." She said the treatments promoted on Daystar failed to save her husband.

"We were trying to treat the COVID and pneumonia with the different protocols we use, including the ones we talk about on Daystar. We used those — I myself used them and had breezed through COVID," she said. "It caused his blood sugar to spike and a decrease in his oxygen. He 100% believed in everything that we've talked about here on Daystar. ... We still stand by that, obviously."

The Lambs have repeatedly touted ivermectin, which the Food and Drug Administration warns is not a "safe or effective" COVID treatment, and hydroxychloroquine, an anti-malarial drug embraced by Trump that has repeatedly been shown to be ineffective against the coronavirus and potentially dangerous to users. Joni Lamb and others at the network have railed against not just COVID vaccines but also flu and HPV immunizations. The network recently filed a lawsuit over the Biden administration's vaccine mandate, calling it a "sin against God's Holy Word" and arguing that making employees get immunized would "potentially cause them to sin." The network's website calls vaccines "the most dangerous thing your child could face."

As a televangelist would well know, those who live by the sword die by the sword.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on December 02, 2021, 11:30:18 pm
The Sheppard took him for more important work…

🙄🤦🏼‍♂️
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 05, 2021, 01:10:55 pm
Interesting that the challenge to the vaccine mandate in Victoria will be heard on 15 March 2022: https://www.supremecourt.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-12/20211129%20Harding%20v%20Sutton%20%28No%202%29%20%5B2021%5D%20VSC%20789.pdf (https://www.supremecourt.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-12/20211129%20Harding%20v%20Sutton%20%28No%202%29%20%5B2021%5D%20VSC%20789.pdf)

Apparently, the trial judge's warning that the case needed to be streamlined if it were to be heard before Xmas didn't move the plaintiffs. The above ruling clips the wings of the plaintiffs anyway, prohibiting any attempt to use expert witnesses to opine on whether the mandate should have been imposed considering all the circumstances. The judge has made it clear that the issue before her is whether the CHO made orders within his power rather than reconsidering that decision afresh.

It makes you wonder whether there's any public interest or any interest at all in the outcome of this case now. By March, we'll be a world away from where we are now and any orders that may exist then will be made under an entirely different legislative structure. What's the point?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 05, 2021, 02:17:51 pm
It makes you wonder whether there's any public interest or any interest at all in the outcome of this case now. By March, we'll be a world away from where we are now and any orders that may exist then will be made under an entirely different legislative structure. What's the point?
They appear to be trying to paint any subsequent legislative changes as a win for their actions, to boost future support.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on December 05, 2021, 03:47:24 pm
Do the plaintiffs have a generous benefactor covering their legal costs?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 09, 2021, 11:50:22 am
Wow, scientists believe Ivermectin will save lives: Click HERE. (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12-01/invecterim-sealions-deadly-parasite-research-endangered/100663006)

Pfizer is reporting lab tests "showed its booster produced a 25-fold increase in the levels of antibodies capable of fighting off Omicron." Whether boosters will work as well in the real world is yet to be determined: Pfizer says lab tests show COVID booster may offer protection against Omicron, (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12-09/pfizer-says-booster-may-be-effective-against-omicron/100685352) abc.net.au.

It seems Omicron results in milder symptoms anyway, so should we be hoping Omicron spreads like crazy and shuts out Delta? I guess the only problem is Omicron seems to be an example of recombination: when a person is infected at the same time by different Covid strains, the features of those different strains can be mix-and-matched to create a new strain. On its own, Omicron might not be too bad but if it infects someone at the same time as Delta, who knows what will result ...

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 09, 2021, 04:59:02 pm
It seems Omicron results in milder symptoms anyway, so should we be hoping Omicron spreads like crazy and shuts out Delta?
Perhaps, but there are some worrying early signs that Omicron is affecting children worse than adults and that is a big worry especially for pre-schoolers and infants.

However, the numbers studied so far are low, so that effect could be a statistical aberration, more definite advice will become available in the coming weeks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 11, 2021, 10:43:14 am
The Greek Government has imposed monthly "health levies" on unvaccinated over-60s:
Quote
Those above 60 who refuse the shot will start paying a 100 euros ($120) monthly fine beginning next month.

“It’s not a penalty. I’d say it’s a health levy, motivation for precaution, a boost to life, but also an act of justice towards the vaccinated majority,” said Mitsotakis. “We can’t have people being deprived of public health services they need because certain others have dug in their heels and refuse to do what is self-evident.”

The measure appears to have had some success. Some 60,000 seniors signed up for the vaccine within a week – as many as had signed up in all of November.
As COVID surges, Greece pursues unvaccinated with fines and vans, (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/12/10/as-covid-surges-greece-pursues-unvaccinated-with-fines-and-vans) Al Jazeera.

It seems that carrots aren't enough; sometimes sticks are necessary. And of course anti-vaxxers would argue that carrots are discriminatory anyway.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 11, 2021, 06:38:07 pm
The service nsw app is way more difficult to use than the service Victoria app.

For starters, battery drain is an issue.

Checking out whilst is a massive pain in the backside is a useful feature, and service vic might want to think about this.

Beyond that registration was more difficult and linking to mygov even worse.  Particularly for my wife whos maiden name is on her Medicare card still.  She needed her marriage certificate.

We should have a national app really.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on December 11, 2021, 11:06:44 pm
The service nsw app is way more difficult to use than the service Victoria app.

For starters, battery drain is an issue.

Checking out whilst is a massive pain in the backside is a useful feature, and service vic might want to think about this.

Beyond that registration was more difficult and linking to mygov even worse.  Particularly for my wife whos maiden name is on her Medicare card still.  She needed her marriage certificate.

We should have a national app really.

Certainly should be a National approach, but that would require national leadership instead of someone looking to be able to point at scapegoats when it will suit him.
I jumped into the SA, Vic, NSW and Qld apps last night, it wasn’t too bad, I’ve got my pass to enter SA next week sorted, tomorrow I need to do the same for my techno challenged wife… that will be challenging.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 12, 2021, 06:53:40 am
My advice is do it early.  It was pure luck my wife has recently got a new job and had a photo of her marriage certificate on her phone.  If not she wouldn't be able to use it.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 12, 2021, 08:36:18 am
Great to read The Rage exposing the bogus antivax and antimask altruism is really motivated by profit, the protest organizers rip in the cash selling protest accessories and snake oil that are leveraged with group think inclusivity, ironic given they accuse big pharmaceutical and politicians of the same to isolate / exclude them.
Quote
You can buy caps and t-shirts, pseudo-medical COVID treatments, even social media sites and legal advice - it’s all part of the deal when you are marching for freedom.
I suppose the cries of the protest organisers is a takes one to know one scenario, who do you trust now?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 12, 2021, 12:33:54 pm
The Perils of Flawed Research and the Ivermectin Debacle (https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/science-is-flawed-covid-19-ivermectin-and-beyond), Medical News Today.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 12, 2021, 01:41:14 pm
The Perils of Flawed Research and the Ivermectin Debacle (https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/science-is-flawed-covid-19-ivermectin-and-beyond), Medical News Today.
I like the below excerpt the best.
Quote
The clinical study was entirely fabricated and later withdrawn from the preprint server, subsequent to great scandal.

The ivermectin story somehow got even worse from there. In late 2020, studies started popping up showing what can only be described as simply incredible results for the medication — a 90% mortality benefit or a 100% reduction in cases when used as a prophylactic.

After nearly a year, myself and other data sleuths demonstrated that many of these studies probably never happened, but the damage was well and truly done long before the first fake paper was retracted.
Pro-Ivermectin papers and studies that are nothing more than marketing claims for snake-oil profiteering. Raking in sales and investors, and worse in the 3rd world were there is very little official oversight the marketing drives the distribution of counterfeits that are often laced with addictive compounds or even poisons. People in low income countries desperate to secure a safe future for their children buys these fakes to give to their kids! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 12, 2021, 01:58:12 pm
Uncle Max Dulumunmun Harrison, an 85 year old Yuin man, dies of COVID related complications in a COVID ward in NSW. Just a couple of weeks after he spoke out at an anti-vax mandate rally and contracted Sars-CoV-2.

His protest associates and family try to spin it as death from asthma related complications and "other" underlying conditions!

Yet apparently it's the health officials and pharmaceutical executives that protestors accuse of spin! :o

Sure he was 85, might have lived to 100 if he and his surrounding associates were vaccinated!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 12, 2021, 02:06:24 pm
I love the Illinois protestors.

Illinois was trying to put through a bill forcing anti-vaxers to pay their own way through hospital.

These are the same protestors that tell you COVID is a cold, vaccines kill and masks do not work.

Yet when the government tried to process the bill those same protestors rained death threats upon officials, they'll cut your head off and kill your family if they can't be treated in hospital at the tax payers expense!

God bless America!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 12, 2021, 02:16:07 pm
Bob Carr has the same idea. This is from an interview with Peter FitzSimons, ‘You ignored warnings’: Bob Carr on why the unvaccinated should pay for their COVID healthcare, (https://www.smh.com.au/national/you-ignored-warnings-bob-carr-on-why-the-unvaccinated-should-pay-for-their-covid-healthcare-20211210-p59gma.html) SMH:
Quote
Fitz: I was fascinated by a tweet you did in November. You said “We must follow Singapore and legislate no medical or hospital expenses to be reimbursed to people who are not vaccinated without medical justification and then contract COVID. You ignored warnings and got the disease. You pay for your wilful stupidity, not us.” Do you stand behind that?

BC: Yes. And I speak for two categories. The overstressed frontline workers in our health system. They shouldn’t have to look after simpletons who believe rubbish on the web, and ignore medical advice. Second, Australians with manageable conditions like diabetes or asthma who may face a life-or-death crisis from contracting COVID. They have rights too.

PF: You will be accused by the nutters of being “a fascist” pushing “medical apartheid”, and threatened with facing a modern version of the Nuremberg trials. This is consistent with something that seems to be seeping into Australia from American: extreme-right nuttery. How dangerous is it and what can be done about it?

BC: Very dangerous. America started climate change denialism. It was picked up from American think tanks funded by the carbon lobby and let loose here by right-wing Coalition politicians. We’ve seen extremists adopting postures devised by gun-toting QAnon warriors with their animal head-dress, threatening the breezy freedoms of Aussie life.

PF: What can be done about it, Bob?

BC: It needs principled people on the conservative side of Australian politics to speak out, to stand up against it, as Malcolm Fraser did on racism, or as John Howard did on guns and say we want nothing to do with your noxious agenda. Stop this. This is Australia, full of funny friendly people who can boast a higher civic IQ.

PF: Do you view Scott Morrison as one of those principled people?

BC: The challenge is in his court.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 13, 2021, 09:25:01 am
I would look at those sort of laws for smokers or junkies before someone who doesn't want to be vaccinated for a virus.
Criminals (real ones like murderers) who have been injured during an arrest or committed self harm would be at the top of the tree.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 13, 2021, 09:31:12 am
Dec 10 (Reuters) - Most of the 43 COVID-19 cases caused by the Omicron variant identified in the United States so far were in people who were fully vaccinated, and a third of them had received a booster dose, according to a U.S. report published on Friday.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) said that of the 43 cases attributed to Omicron variant, 34 people had been fully vaccinated. Fourteen of them had also received a booster, although five of those cases occurred less than 14 days after the additional shot before full protection kicks in.
While the numbers are very small, they add to growing concerns that current COVID-19 vaccines may offer less protection against the highly transmissible new variant.
Among the Omicron cases, 25 were in people aged 18 to 39 and 14 had traveled internationally. Six people had previously been infected with the coronavirus.

Most of them only had mild symptoms such as coughing, congestion, and fatigue, the report said, and one person was hospitalized for two days. Other symptoms reported less frequently including nausea or vomiting, shortness of breath or difficulty breathing, diarrhea and loss of taste or smell.
The CDC said that while many of the first reported Omicron cases appear to be mild, a lag exists between infection and more severe outcomes. Symptoms would also be expected to be milder in vaccinated persons and those with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 13, 2021, 09:46:13 am
The CDC said that while many of the first reported Omicron cases appear to be mild, a lag exists between infection and more severe outcomes. Symptoms would also be expected to be milder in vaccinated persons and those with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection.
I think it's too early to tell, but the growing restrictions and actions in Europe suggest it's more severe or a bigger issue than we are being lead to believe, I'm still concerned about the long term impact of Omicron on young children as children and infants seem to be more affected by Omicron than the other variants. Of course, most children and infants are not vaccinated.

Great to read that the vaccines still have good efficacy at reducing the severity of disease from the Omicron variant.

As we get more variants the likelihood we'll get breakthrough infections grows, and given that in many or the reporting locations the bulk of population are vaccinated it's natural to have more vaccinated people detected with infections than unvaccinated. However, as long as the vaccines provide some efficacy the fundamentals haven't changed, and in European Omicron affected regions more than 70% of ICU intubation/ventilation cases remain as unvaccinated people. That doesn't mean the chance of individual transmission is increased, it just means the number of vaccinated far outweigh the number of unvaccinated. Fundamentally the big constant remains, if you're unvaccinated and get Sars-CoV-2 you are about 10x more likely to be hospitalised and require intubation or ventilation, you're 10x more likely to become a burden on the health system, you're cost of care is likely to be far more expensive to society.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 13, 2021, 09:55:59 am
So nsw dropping the mandatory checking in and vaccine cert checking on Wednesday.

Border to qld is open from today. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 13, 2021, 09:58:09 am
I read an article discussing boosters that said the moderna booster worked better than pfizer or astra but the Novavax as a booster smashed them both especially after two shots of astra.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on December 13, 2021, 09:59:23 am
Dec 10 (Reuters) - Most of the 43 COVID-19 cases caused by the Omicron variant identified in the United States so far were in people who were fully vaccinated, and a third of them had received a booster dose, according to a U.S. report published on Friday.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) said that of the 43 cases attributed to Omicron variant, 34 people had been fully vaccinated. Fourteen of them had also received a booster, although five of those cases occurred less than 14 days after the additional shot before full protection kicks in.
While the numbers are very small, they add to growing concerns that current COVID-19 vaccines may offer less protection against the highly transmissible new variant.
Among the Omicron cases, 25 were in people aged 18 to 39 and 14 had traveled internationally. Six people had previously been infected with the coronavirus.

Most of them only had mild symptoms such as coughing, congestion, and fatigue, the report said, and one person was hospitalized for two days. Other symptoms reported less frequently including nausea or vomiting, shortness of breath or difficulty breathing, diarrhea and loss of taste or smell.
The CDC said that while many of the first reported Omicron cases appear to be mild, a lag exists between infection and more severe outcomes. Symptoms would also be expected to be milder in vaccinated persons and those with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection.

I think it's pretty well established that vaccinated people still pass the virus on.
The fact that the majority of eligible folks in the country are now double vaccinated means that most of the ongoing transmission will come from vaccinated folks.
The borders here in Queensland opened today.
Restrictions apply to the unvaccinated, yet the expectation is that we'll see a sharp increase in the number of people affected.
It means that the spread of Covid in Queensland will come mostly from the vaccinated.

That's just the reality
The key is that the vaccine should result in a milder form of the illness in most folks...but there will still be some people who will end up in  hospital....and we have no real idea of the effectiveness of the vaccine against variants. The jury is still out.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 13, 2021, 10:05:37 am
I read an article discussing boosters that said the moderna booster worked better than pfizer or astra but the Novavax as a booster smashed them both especially after two shots of astra.
It's quite possible, the science seems to indicate cross vaccination is clearly delivering the best antibody response and better long term adaptive immune response ( T-Cell and B-Cell memory).

Pfizer works OK but it's efficacy is perhaps overhyped, the pharmaceutical companies are clearly all massive commercial entities, but it appears to me that Pfizer is an order of magnitude ahead of the others in terms of marketing and promoting it's product. I worry that a lot of it's spin is about it's balance sheet more than curing the pandemic, Pfizer's CEO pushing more frequent and earlier boosters shots should be an alarm bell for the authorities, the science should be pursuing better outcomes not just more of the same!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 13, 2021, 10:10:45 am
The fact that the majority of eligible folks in the country are now double vaccinated means that most of the ongoing transmission will come from vaccinated folks.
@Lods  That might not be correct, viral load and shedding determines how infectious someone might be, while there may be more vaccinated people roaming around it still appears that they shed less virus, have lower viral loads and remain less likely to transmit by about an order of magnitude. Based on uptake that probably means if you get Sars-CoV-2 it's still more likely you get it from someone unvaccinated.

It's not a simple situation to evaluate, the math is serious complicated, too much of the media coverage talks like getting infected is easy like getting fur off you from contact with a cat or dog. If you pass or brush against infected people they aren't all putting you at the same level of risk, and that level of risk is non-linear.

There remains a risk that vaccinated or unvaccinated could become super-spreaders, but it's wrong to assume all is equal, the chance of a vaccinated person becoming a super-spreader is very very low, several orders of magnitude lower.

Finally, being vaccinated is a clear indicator of willingness to comply with health directives, social distancing, mask wearing in hazard zones, getting tested if unwell. It makes a difference and all feeds back into the math.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 13, 2021, 10:27:22 am
Boris Johnson: UK Faces 'Tidal Wave' Of Omicron Cases, (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/covid-omicron-uk-johnson_n_61b6624fe4b068effecc16a8) Huffpost.

Perhaps Boris Johnson isn't well placed to inform the masses given that he would welcome a distraction from his political problems (including the fallout from the revelation his Tories held parties during the lockdown and had a laugh about it). But the epidemiologists are more credible:
Quote
Johnson’s announcement came hours after the government raised the country’s official coronavirus threat level, warning the rapid spread of the omicron variant had pushed the U.K. into risky territory.

The chief medical officers of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland said the 1of the highly transmissible new strain “adds additional and rapidly increasing risk to the public and health care services” at a time when COVID-19 is already widespread. They recommended raising the alert level from 3 to 4 on a 5-point scale. The top level, 5, indicates authorities think the health care system is about to be overwhelmed.

The doctors said early evidence shows omicron is spreading much faster than the currently dominant delta variant, and that vaccines offer less protection against it. British officials say omicron is likely to replace delta as the dominant strain in the U.K. within days.

“Data on severity will become clearer over the coming weeks but hospitalizations from omicron are already occurring and these are likely to increase rapidly,” they said.

Concerns about the new variant led Johnson’s Conservative government to reintroduce restrictions that were lifted almost six months ago. Masks must be worn in most indoor settings, COVID-19 certificates must be shown to enter nightclubs and people are being urged to work from home if possible.

Many scientists say that’s unlikely to be enough, however, and are calling for tougher measures, which the government so far has resisted.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 13, 2021, 10:59:24 am
I read an article discussing boosters that said the moderna booster worked better than pfizer or astra but the Novavax as a booster smashed them both especially after two shots of astra.
I want the Novavax and its been prescribed for my daughters MIL who has multiple health issues and cant have the others but is the same old story with supply being the issue and its also going to cost more.
Moderna gave my Son in Law lumps along his collarbone and a shingles type rash after one dose......
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on December 13, 2021, 01:40:03 pm
@Lods  That might not be correct, viral load and shedding determines how infectious someone might be, while there may be more vaccinated people roaming around it still appears that they shed less virus, have lower viral loads and remain less likely to transmit by about an order of magnitude. Based on uptake that probably means if you get Sars-CoV-2 it's still more likely you get it from someone unvaccinated.


I can get my head around the fact that you're a lot less likely to get it from a vaccinated person due to the lesser impact of the  virus on their system and the load they carry but surely that's countered by the number of folks vaccinated and still passing it on.

Failing clear data we really have no idea as to where the transmission is coming from...and I'm not sure you how you measure where you've caught it from.
There are so many variables, including waning protection in some of the early vaccinated.

With the Queensland situation we really shouldn't have any 'interstate unvaccinated' roaming free so it will be interesting to see if it takes hold. I think a rise in cases is the expectation from the health folk.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 13, 2021, 03:23:25 pm
It's nonsense to try to aggregate the risk of vaccinated people passing on Covid in order to say unvaccinated people are no longer a problem.

Forget about aggregation. If the average unvaccinated person is more likely to catch and infect others with Covid than the average vaccinated person (and yes, a lot of work has to be done in assessing those risks), that's a reasonable basis to impose mandates and the like.

The CDC reports that only 28% of fatal accidents in the US involve alcohol impairment. As sober drivers are 3 times more likely to be involved in fatal accidents, does that mean we shouldn't try to keep drunk drivers off the road? Maybe it would be better to concentrate on the increased risk of an alcohol-affected driver being involved in a collision compared to a sober driver rather than the aggregate statistics. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 13, 2021, 03:36:09 pm
Comparing someone who doesn't want to get vaccinated to someone getting sloshed and getting behind the wheel is beyond reaching.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 13, 2021, 03:42:43 pm
No, it's simple probability and statistics. The point is only how aggregation is nonsensical. If you saw a statistician using the same methodology to compute the probability that 5 tosses of a coin result in 3 heads and a random group of 5 people has 3 females in it, would you seriously argue that it would be outrageous to compare people and coins?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 13, 2021, 03:49:57 pm
I can get my head around the fact that you're a lot less likely to get it from a vaccinated person due to the lesser impact of the  virus on their system and the load they carry but surely that's countered by the number of folks vaccinated and still passing it on.
It's to do with the level of viral load and viral shedding relative to what level of virus you have to take up to have a good chance of being infected.

Can I offer some simplistic numbers to explain the chance/risk concept because I do not know the real figures, if so read on?

Let's say you need to take on a viral load of 1,000 to have a chance of being infected, but a vaccinated person might only be shedding a load of 100, they are giving you 1/10th of a chance of being infected. This is per unit time/exposure. An unvaccinated person might be shedding 100,000, you still only need 1,000 to have a chance but now that one contact is giving you 100 chances to get infected. In ratio that makes you 1000x more likely to get the virus off the person shedding 100,000 versus the person shedding 100, from the same level of exposure.

btw., How much virus and bacteria can you shed? When I asked this of an associate in the field they mentioned that a healthy person sheds about 50,000 virus or bacteria particles with every deep breath, while simply coughing and/or sneezing can shed 10x to 50x more!

Now think about these figures and how the vaccine providers might calculate efficacy, where does that 95% or 97% efficacy figure come from, knowing that shedding is part of the calculation it clear how these ratios can relate to deliver vastly different outcomes!

PS; I want to be clear about this because naysayers will latch onto the figures, I do not know the real numbers. I've used powers of 10 to simplify the explanation, it may be that the real world numbers are 3, 30 and 3000 or 15, 150 and 15000, whatever they are isn't important it's the relationship between them. The ratios may even be non-linear requiring the use of exponents, roots and complex numbers (The reason why I used the term simplistic rather than imaginary!) Also the term "a chance" might be 50/50, or 60/40, or 40/60, etc., etc..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on December 13, 2021, 04:13:12 pm
It's nonsense to try to aggregate the risk of vaccinated people passing on Covid in order to say unvaccinated people are no longer a problem.

Forget about aggregation. If the average unvaccinated person is more likely to catch and infect others with Covid than the average vaccinated person (and yes, a lot of work has to be done in assessing those risks), that's a reasonable basis to impose mandates and the like.

The CDC reports that only 28% of fatal accidents in the US involve alcohol impairment. As sober drivers are 3 times more likely to be involved in fatal accidents, does that mean we shouldn't try to keep drunk drivers off the road? Maybe it would be better to concentrate on the increased risk of an alcohol-affected driver being involved in a collision compared to a sober driver rather than the aggregate statistics. 

I'm certainly not suggesting that (in bold)...

There seems to be a bit of a line of thinking that if you mention vaccinated folk spread covid you're helping promote the philosophies of the unvaccinated.

In actual fact having some confusion over the fact that you're still at risk is surely a dangerous practice...it leads to a false sense of security.
Folks should be aware of all the issues surrounding the disease and vaccines.

In a situation that changes day by day anyone who thinks they have all the answers probably needs to take a pause.
Advice can change quickly.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12-11/booster-access-brought-forward-to-slow-spread-of-omicron-variant/100693484

Quote
"There is no evidence to suggest, at the moment, that an earlier booster does of the current covid-19 vaccines, will augment the protection against the omicron variant," Chief Medical Officer Paul Kelly said on December 3.

But much more has been learned about the Omicron variant since then, including its transmissibility, and the advice has now been changed.

Omicron has thrown into question some of the strategies and effectiveness used with the Delta strain, just as Delta meant a change from previous strains (need for boosters).
The next variant might present even more challenges.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/how-omicron-appears-to-be-infecting-britain-despite-the-vaccine/ar-AARJzDr?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

"Get vaccinated, get your boosters" is the best current advice...but the challenge remains that there is still a lot of work needed to stay ahead of this thing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on December 13, 2021, 04:24:09 pm
It's to do with the level of viral load and viral shedding relative to what level of virus you have to take up to have a good chance of being infected.

Can I offer some simplistic numbers to explain the chance/risk concept because I do not know the real figures, if so read on?

Let's say you need to take on a viral load of 1,000 to have a chance of being infected, but a vaccinated person might only be shedding a load of 100, they are giving you 1/10th of a chance of being infected. This is per unit time/exposure. An unvaccinated person might be shedding 100,000, you still only need 1,000 to have a chance but now that one contact is giving you 100 chances to get infected. In ratio that makes you 1000x more likely to get the virus off the person shedding 100,000 versus the person shedding 100, from the same level of exposure.

btw., How much virus and bacteria can you shed? When I asked this of an associate in the field they mentioned that a healthy person sheds about 50,000 virus or bacteria particles with every deep breath, while simply coughing and/or sneezing can shed 10x to 50x more!

Now think about these figures and how the vaccine providers might calculate efficacy, where does that 95% or 97% efficacy figure come from, knowing that shedding is part of the calculation it clear how these ratios can relate to deliver vastly different outcomes!

PS; I want to be clear about this because naysayers will latch onto the figures, I do not know the real numbers. I've used powers of 10 to simplify the explanation, it may be that the real world numbers are 3, 30 and 3000 or 15, 150 and 15000, whatever they are isn't important it's the relationship between them. The ratios may even be non-linear requiring the use of exponents, roots and complex numbers (The reason why I used the term simplistic rather than imaginary!) Also the term "a chance" might be 50/50, or 60/40, or 40/60, etc., etc..

Let's for a minute say we go with your figures.
What happens when a mutated variant comes into play for which a vaccine does not offer the same protection?
If the Omicron takes off it is liable to displace the currently dominant Delta.
As I said we can only go with the best current advice (that's my own personal position) but it seems to me the covid is staying one step ahead.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 13, 2021, 04:32:33 pm
Let's for a minute say we go with your figures.
What happens when a mutated variant comes into play for which a vaccine does not offer the same protection?
If the Omicron takes off it is liable to displace the currently dominant Delta.
As I said we can only go with the best current advice (that's my own personal position) but it seems to me the covid is staying one step ahead.
But at the moment the game remains as stated, and the vaccines still have efficacy.

The new legislation taken up here and abroad is designed to slow the spread, to buy time for the evolution of vaccines by slowing the infections. At this stage it is working, the biggest risk is public non-compliance not the virus. Even though it's a fantasy and impossible, if when the virus was first detected we all locked down for a month and remained distanced, it would be extinct now.

No matter how contagious a virus needs a vector to spread and that vector is generally formed by a combination of actions from people who are in a proximity. In close proximity, one infected unvaccinated person might be the equivalent of 10, 100 or 1000 infected vaccinated people.

Omicron impacts efficacy in many ways, transmission is only one of probably dozens of terms in a very complex real world equation. None of us can escape Sars-CoV-2 forever, eventually we will all get it or some future variant, because it's now endemic. That's why closing borders can't work, it encourages bad behaviour by allowing people to resume the old ways and those old ways are now inherently risky, because from here onwards spread is always a mater of when not if! It is almost as bad as doing nothing like the protestors basically demand.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on December 13, 2021, 04:41:32 pm
But at the moment the game remains as stated, and the vaccines still have efficacy.

...and that's kind of at the root of what troubles me.
Are we playing last week's game when the real worry is the game ahead?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 13, 2021, 04:46:33 pm
...and that's kind of at the root of what troubles me.
Are we playing last week's game when the real worry is the game ahead?
Even if the vaccines lose efficacy, the restrictive measures still work to slow or even stop the spread, as long as there is compliance by the public. This lack of compliance is what makes deniers / protestors such a risk to everyone else, and if the game changes they will be persecuted by mob rule, they are already such a minority, God help them if they are not prepared to help themselves and the rules of the game change!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on December 13, 2021, 07:32:05 pm
Comparing someone who doesn't want to get vaccinated to someone getting sloshed and getting behind the wheel is beyond reaching.

More people die by horses and cows than lions.
Doesn't mean Lions are not dangerous though, just statistically there are more of them and more chances of accidents happening as a result.

antivaxxers are basically saying they'd prefer to be in a cage with a lion than with a cow. Thats how nonsensical that 'logic' is.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 13, 2021, 08:13:42 pm
MBB won't like you comparing the unvaxxed to apex predators ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 14, 2021, 10:33:53 am
Norway bans the booze, like we have things to complain about! :o

As I've said before and stand by it, our lockdown was a relative Clayton's lockdown compared to some locations, the local cries about a world record, etc., etc., are spin mostly for political purposes. All lockdowns are not the same!

Relative to some foreign locations our local restrictions and inconveniences were hardly a locked down at all!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 14, 2021, 10:45:32 am
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/president-bidens-job-approval-sinking-inflation-crime-covid/story?id=81701113

As BTO sang, "you ain't seen nothing yet"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 14, 2021, 10:52:31 am
Norway bans the booze, like we have things to complain about! :o

Hardly ... in pubs and restaurants.  Overreach

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12-14/norway-bans-serving-alcohol-covid-omicron/100697718
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 14, 2021, 11:01:07 am
Really? The good townsfolk in Victoria came out with their pitchforks and torches when there was a crackdown on pubs serving alcohol to patrons who drank it on the footpath as well as alcohol being consumed around playgrounds in pop-up picnics. And you think banning alcohol sales at pubs and restaurants would be met with a shrug in Victoria?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 14, 2021, 12:53:17 pm
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/president-bidens-job-approval-sinking-inflation-crime-covid/story?id=81701113

As BTO sang, "you ain't seen nothing yet"
I think it is probably worthwhile to browse the knowledge base before making too much of any of that,

https://www.ipsos.com/en

It's amazing the answers you can get when you either ask a specific question, or poll a specific demographic. Then if you pick and choose results, some may refer to that as cherry-picking the answers, you can paint whatever picture you like!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 14, 2021, 01:09:02 pm
I think it is probably worthwhile to browse the knowledge base before making too much of any of that,

https://www.ipsos.com/en

It's amazing the answers you can get when you either ask a specific question, or poll a specific demographic. Then if you pick and choose results, some may refer to that as cherry-picking the answers, you can paint whatever picture you like!

It's pretty feckin' clear he's on the nose everywhere ... so paint that on your easel.  Lowest rating and it will get worse.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 14, 2021, 04:19:45 pm
The CDC has revealed that 1% of Americans over the age of 65 have died of Covid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 14, 2021, 04:24:13 pm
It's pretty feckin' clear he's on the nose everywhere ... so paint that on your easel.  Lowest rating and it will get worse.
Biden isn't capable of doing the job, he isn't with it half the time and it's sad watching a bloke struggling to deal with the onset of dementia..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 14, 2021, 04:48:53 pm
Biden isn't capable of doing the job, he isn't with it half the time and it's sad watching a bloke struggling to deal with the onset of dementia..

Come the mid terms, this nightmare will be over.  And CNN, MSNBC already know it.  So does that shop front store dummy Harris. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 14, 2021, 05:00:11 pm
Come the mid terms, this nightmare will be over.  And CNN, MSNBC already know it.  So does that shop front store dummy Harris. 

I think Biden is just a figurehead that will be rolled out less and less until as you say its over......funny thing though he has said he wants to contest again in 2024. Harris approval rate is lower than Bidens.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 14, 2021, 05:09:53 pm
At 27% (inflated IMO) she's a complete fraud.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on December 14, 2021, 05:17:30 pm
I think Biden is just a figurehead that will be rolled out less and less until as you say its over......funny thing though he has said he wants to contest again in 2024. Harris approval rate is lower than Bidens.....

Interesting to speculate as to whose hand(s) are up the back of his jacket working him?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 14, 2021, 05:25:31 pm
It's pretty feckin' clear he's on the nose everywhere ... so paint that on your easel.  Lowest rating and it will get worse.
I don't really care who these articles talk about, Biden, Trump, whoever it may be!

The media and pollsters can't escape criticism when they are selectively publishing. They have to be held to account for taking a political position over just reporting the facts without cherry-picking.

Local readers should be far more worried about the quality of local reporting, or polls, than what some remote politician is doing!

There is no point sledging politicians when much of the material people read is tainted by the media organisation's or pollster's politics.

The summary offered in that ABC report constructed via selective reporting parts of a larger IPSOS poll is the same dodgy mechanism that allowed all the Ivermectin metadata studies to persist. It's not lost on me that the ABC wouldn't hesitate to highlight the dodgy Ivermectin studies, then it acts the very same way! Of course the ABC if cornered would claim it's only an opinion(a selected perspective) and not a broad summary.

It's the willingness for local media and think tanks to cherry-pick in the hope of garnishing or matching public opinion(Ratings pay$) that allows nefarious entities like China and Russia to succeed in corrupting the debate.

There is a significant difference between blogging for dollar$, and unbiased professional reporting!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on December 14, 2021, 05:53:59 pm
The CDC has revealed that 1% of Americans over the age of 65 have died of Covid.
I'd be very highly sceptical of any figures like that coming out of america.

Of that 1%, i reckon 10% would've actually had a covid test. The rest, assumed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 14, 2021, 08:31:20 pm
Given the way Red States are trying to play down Covid, it's more likely that's a conservative figure. Well, a figure concerning dead conservatives anyway.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 14, 2021, 09:08:30 pm
Or its accurate and covid isn't that big a deal.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 14, 2021, 09:21:19 pm
Not if you're in the 99%, I guess. And the 1% don't seem to be complaining much.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 15, 2021, 10:27:23 am
NSW numbers have exploded and that was before allowing the unvaxxed back into society. Looks like Omricon is a bad one.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 15, 2021, 10:35:13 am
NSW numbers have exploded and that was before allowing the unvaxxed back into society. Looks like Omricon is a bad one.
Its bad in England, the vaccines are not as effective in limiting the spread.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 15, 2021, 10:36:17 am
The big hope is that it's more like a less serious flu than Delta and it crowds Delta out. The only problem with that scenario is that we've seen Covid isn't static. It can mutate once again and become more lethal. Fortunately, evolution/natural selection isn't driving Covid towards greater lethality. Reproduction and spread is the name of the game.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 15, 2021, 10:59:56 am
It's sure as hell hurting Germany and Poland as well.  Send Kerry "new world order" Chant over there.  She's got all the answers.

One in every three Europeans unvaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 15, 2021, 11:06:18 am
The AFL would be battening down the hatches right now as winter will compound the problem for us. I sure hope this won't result in the 3rd year in a row of abandoned Melbourne metro competitions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on December 15, 2021, 11:28:36 am
I think a lot of them have lost the plot.
So many inconsistencies and backflips.
The QLD press conference is a dog's breakfast
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 15, 2021, 01:31:14 pm
Can someone explain logically why Liam Jones retired again?

It took less than 4 months to prove a ridiculous decision seeing back pedalling already.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.smh.com.au/national/australia-news-live-nsw-eases-covid-19-rules-as-cases-grow-across-state-victoria-tasmania-s-borders-reopen-20211214-p59hie.html

Sure the competition blah blah blah. Its irrelevant already and the season hasn't even started.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on December 15, 2021, 02:37:26 pm
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/president-bidens-job-approval-sinking-inflation-crime-covid/story?id=81701113

As BTO sang, "you ain't seen nothing yet"

Why is this in the COVID thread?  There is specific thread for Biden.  In fact, you started it  :)

Moving posts is a pain in the butt so you may wish to post this again in the Biden thread.  I will delete your post in this thread later today.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 15, 2021, 02:42:19 pm
Can someone explain logically why Liam Jones retired again?
Some vaccine mandates remain, and I believe despite what happens in retail settings you'll still need vaccine certificates to fly.

The problem for Liam and other dissenters, is that potential liability means some commercial entities with enough financial and legal clout to defend their position, are going to continue to require vaccination certificates for people to access those services. I doubt States or Feds will make that practice illegal, at the moment the Feds guarantee the right decline service, but you never know in minority politics.

Insurers are already putting caveats on policies, that mean if you do not enforce vaccine requirements you won't be covered by insurance against litigation. Businesses are as a result in a no win situation, primarily caused by a piss-weak Federal government.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 15, 2021, 02:53:23 pm
NSW numbers have exploded and that was before allowing the unvaxxed back into society. Looks like Omricon is a bad one.
Where is the breakdown of Delta vs Omicron for NSW?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on December 15, 2021, 03:36:59 pm
Where is the breakdown of Delta vs Omicron for NSW?

https://www.msn.com/en-au/health/medical/omicron-variant-expected-to-become-dominant-strain-in-australia-as-nsw-records-1-360-new-covid-cases/ar-AARP7Ha?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

"The new data from the Kirby Institute comes as Covid-19 case numbers in New South Wales jumped again on Wednesday to 1,360, 25 of them are the Omicron variant."

Delta is still number one ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 15, 2021, 03:47:20 pm
Some vaccine mandates remain, and I believe despite what happens in retail settings you'll still need vaccine certificates to fly.

The problem for Liam and other dissenters, is that potential liability means some commercial entities with enough financial and legal clout to defend their position, are going to continue to require vaccination certificates for people to access those services. I doubt States or Feds will make that practice illegal, at the moment the Feds guarantee the right decline service, but you never know in minority politics.

Insurers are already putting caveats on policies, that mean if you do not enforce vaccine requirements you won't be covered by insurance against litigation. Businesses are as a result in a no win situation, primarily caused by a piss-weak Federal government.

Mate, I appreciate the sentiment but professional footballers aren't really at any real covid risk.  We've had very few cases result in any real impact to sports globally aside from causing issues to fielding a team once positive and as we've seen in the EPL recently it's mattered little whether vaccinated or not.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 15, 2021, 04:06:43 pm
Mate, I appreciate the sentiment but professional footballers aren't really at any real covid risk.  We've had very few cases result in any real impact to sports globally aside from causing issues to fielding a team once positive and as we've seen in the EPL recently it's mattered little whether vaccinated or not.
Once again, the problem is not unidirectional, you need to think this through from many perspectives, the litigation might not be from the players, does the AFL run it's own private jet reserved for it's own use, are flights shared by other people, what about the flight crew, cleaners, baggage handlers, security and ground staff?

We wouldn't be laughing now if Cook had kicked the bucket, and he is every bit as critical to our fate as some 20 year old kicking the pill around the park!

I'm sure the lawyers and health insurers will be fully understanding, and forgive the airlines for having allowed the unvaccinated sporting superstar to travel, cough and sneeze all over a now ventilated client. I'm sure the patients lawyers won't act in an opportunistic manner, it's not like the lawyers have behaved poorly before, it would be a first if they sued wouldn't it as they always act in societies best interest, or perhaps it's that they act in interest$ best interest!

Anyway, how would they establish a link, it's not like they could litigate on a idea! ::)

If you can find a way to have the general public accept that level of discrimination and waiver their private right to litigate then it's all good!

PS; I would like to sell you a pixie garden that is full of golden egg crapping geese, it's a bargain! Wait on too late, I've sold it to Perrottet, in the meantime you all just continue to take on responsibility for yourself and do the right thing! ;D

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 16, 2021, 01:01:43 pm
I can't help but think, that Perrottet's team have come out and claimed 25,000 COVID cases a day by the end of Jan, so that if it doesn't get to that figure they can claim "A job well done!"

One of the reasons I'm sceptical is that there are regions of much higher density, with larger populations and less health services than Sydney or Melbourne, that aren't getting to much more than 50,000 a day!

To think dispersed NSW could get to that figure seems a stretch, I wonder what Perrottet's Federal colleagues think of his proclamation, surely if NSW do get to 25,000 a day Scomo is a dead man walking!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 16, 2021, 04:58:19 pm
Once again, the problem is not unidirectional, you need to think this through from many perspectives, the litigation might not be from the players, does the AFL run it's own private jet reserved for it's own use, are flights shared by other people, what about the flight crew, cleaners, baggage handlers, security and ground staff?

We wouldn't be laughing now if Cook had kicked the bucket, and he is every bit as critical to our fate as some 20 year old kicking the pill around the park!

I'm sure the lawyers and health insurers will be fully understanding, and forgive the airlines for having allowed the unvaccinated sporting superstar to travel, cough and sneeze all over a now ventilated client. I'm sure the patients lawyers won't act in an opportunistic manner, it's not like the lawyers have behaved poorly before, it would be a first if they sued wouldn't it as they always act in societies best interest, or perhaps it's that they act in interest$ best interest!

Anyway, how would they establish a link, it's not like they could litigate on a idea! ::)

If you can find a way to have the general public accept that level of discrimination and waiver their private right to litigate then it's all good!

PS; I would like to sell you a pixie garden that is full of golden egg crapping geese, it's a bargain! Wait on too late, I've sold it to Perrottet, in the meantime you all just continue to take on responsibility for yourself and do the right thing! ;D



I think you're missing the point that the unvaccinated are about to be given the green light to play on.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on December 16, 2021, 05:19:49 pm
I think you're missing the point that the unvaccinated are about to be given the green light to play on.

That may be so, but they might be playing russian roulette.

Darwins theory of evolution will get to work now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 16, 2021, 05:33:47 pm
That may be so, but they might be playing russian roulette.

Darwins theory of evolution will get to work now.

Im not arguing against that or disputing it.  I think the only reason to dump Liam comes back to a team ethos dynamic.

I hear Jurgen klopp got asked a similar question at a press conference.  He mentioned all his players have been vaccinated.  Thats important from a one in all in scenario.  He was asked whether or not he would only consider vaccinated players when they started signing players again, and he answered it very much awkwardly admitting that they hadn't considered that at this stage, but admitted they might do. 

Now if thats the case, that's fine, but its important to consider that this may not be a factor anymore and im saying this that people should get vaccinated. 

Liam isn't alone with losing his job and career over it.  Its been a massive price to pay and the short term reversal of the rules has meant that these people are going to be even more butter and twisted about it.

Also if our lack of key defenders is a problem next year no one is going to care particularly if covid causes grief to the season again next year with the unvaxxed out.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on December 17, 2021, 02:07:23 am
I have just read in the Saturday online Age that an infected person with the "wildly infectious" strain attended a birthday party last Saturday at Elwood Bathers which was attended by Dan Andrews.  Apparently urgent measures are being taken to contact all attendees.

We regularly go to Elwood Bathers and find their security is excellent.  No one is allowed entry unless proof is shown of being double vaccinated.

If this person has Omicron then it makes current checking of cafes and restaurants ineffective and creates a whole new problem.

Whatever the  strain it looks like we have opened up too quickly and with the new easing of restrictions the future appears quite murky.





Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 17, 2021, 07:54:43 am
I have just read in the Saturday online Age that an infected person with the "wildly infectious" strain attended a birthday party last Saturday at Elwood Bathers which was attended by Dan Andrews.  Apparently urgent measures are being taken to contact all attendees.

We regularly go to Elwood Bathers and find their security is excellent.  No one is allowed entry unless proof is shown of being double vaccinated.

If this person has Omicron then it makes current checking of cafes and restaurants ineffective and creates a whole new problem.

Whatever the  strain it looks like we have opened up too quickly and with the new easing of restrictions the future appears quite murky.






Went to a birthday party at an Indian Restaurant last weekend. About 100 people in attendance and no one at the door, anyone could walk in unchecked and join proceedings.
Very tight inside for space too, perfect for an evening of Covid although the food probably would have overpowered any virus... Not a fan.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 17, 2021, 10:05:18 am
This situation is evolving quite rapidly, I'm not sure it's wise to make too many long distance travel plans between now and the early New Year. Just have some contingencies set aside for the if, buts and maybes.

Europe had a little golden period over it's summer because the spread of Delta and the other strains slowed over the warmer months, but that does not appear to be the case for Omicron in our summer, and now I've heard rumours of yet another potential variant. It may also be the case that Omicron is turning out to be a lot nastier for higher latitudes, partially Africa might have found it to be more benign because of the warmer climate and underlying genetics.

Now in Europe even countries that have been more reluctant to act in the past are pulling the pin early on significant restrictions, for me this is a bit of a tell. Part of the problem they have got at the moment is that the Omicron variant is spreading faster than the scientists can work out what it does, what it's risks are and how to treat it.

If I had to guess, the game now seems to be changing in some regions to totally stop infections to stop variants on the basis that the continual emergence of variants makes the situation unmanageable. So if we thought previous lockdowns were harsh, there is a chance we could be in for a significant shock over the next few months!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 17, 2021, 10:38:41 am
So much for the notion the Pandemic Management Act was no longer necessary as the pandemic was over or the claim that governments were just using Omicron as an excuse to seize power. Maybe the concern over Omicron was justified. Who would have thunk it?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on December 17, 2021, 11:48:50 am
Getting Moderna booster shot next week.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 17, 2021, 01:16:40 pm
So much for the notion the Pandemic Management Act was no longer necessary as the pandemic was over or the claim that governments were just using Omicron as an excuse to seize power. Maybe the concern over Omicron was justified. Who would have thunk it?
I wonder if @Thryleon has noticed anything at work, they seem to be taking Omicron very seriously in the health sector, I suspect the minute there was a hint of a chance it was not particularly good for kids to get Omicron the game changed, before then COVID was just an old persons disease!

If it is bad for kids, the protestors are going to have a whole new level of stuff to complain about!

My wife predicted this last year, she told me if kids were getting sick nobody would tolerate all the protest and anti-vax crap that was going on! I'd wouldn't dare or be stupid enough to protest if it turns out kids are vulnerable, what will Craig Kelly do?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 17, 2021, 01:29:07 pm
How can you predict what an idiot would do? The only certainty is that it'll be something stupid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 17, 2021, 01:31:33 pm
How can you predict what an idiot would do? The only certainty is that it'll be something stupid.
He'll do what serves his own interests best, every time!

Hard right types like Alan Jones and Andrew Bolt have clammed up, their prime constituency is grandparents so they aren't going to come out and make "bad luck for the grandkids" type statements!

I can't believe Scomo made the statement he made today, in effect saying no to any future restrictions and prioritising protecting livelihoods over reducing infections, if those infections turn out to be kids that quote will be turned by the media into "Scomo said save jobs not kids!"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 17, 2021, 01:58:59 pm
I wonder if @Thryleon has noticed anything at work, they seem to be taking Omicron very seriously in the health sector, I suspect the minute there was a hint of a chance it was not particularly good for kids to get Omicron the game changed, before then COVID was just an old persons disease!

If it is bad for kids, the protestors are going to have a whole new level of stuff to complain about!

My wife predicted this last year, she told me if kids were getting sick nobody would tolerate all the protest and anti-vax crap that was going on! I'd wouldn't dare or be stupid enough to protest if it turns out kids are vulnerable, what will Craig Kelly do?

Nothing at this stage.  Business as usual.  The hospitals aren't flip flopping with policy.  They flip wards from covid to non covid and back to covid and thats about it.  Visitors not allowed.  Etc.  Ive spent the last week in nsw so most of what I know is 7 days plus old.

I do know that they are implementing teams to watch the positives and contact them in order to understand whether or not hospitalisation is likely or not.  Lots of hospital in the home going on too.  Contact tracers picked up and went home and haven't returned to site yet.

It is what it is.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 17, 2021, 05:38:09 pm
So, Ch7 News claims that hospitalisations for Covid are surging. But didn't the armchair epidemiologists assure us that wouldn't happen? Seems they're about as reliable as armchair recruiters, selectors and coaches ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 17, 2021, 11:56:12 pm
So, Ch7 News claims that hospitalisations for Covid are surging. But didn't the armchair epidemiologists assure us that wouldn't happen? Seems they're about as reliable as armchair recruiters, selectors and coaches ...

Who knows.  Apparently a high rate of vaccination doesn't work either. 

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 18, 2021, 12:13:54 am
Define "doesn't work". You don't need to be a salesman on a shopping channel to figure out "It keeps you alive" is a pretty good marketing slogan.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 18, 2021, 12:37:10 am
The ATAGI statement, hot off the presses: ATAGI statement on Omicron variant (https://www.health.gov.au/news/atagi-statement-on-omicron-variant).

And an interesting and cautious article in the Intelligencer:  And Now for the Good News About Omicron (https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/12/and-now-for-the-good-news-about-omicron.html).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 18, 2021, 08:42:29 am
Sutton believes ICU admissions have peaked and 90 percent are unvaccinated.
Fatality rates for ICU cases under 70 are 0.15 per cent.
Over 70 is 14.8 percent.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 18, 2021, 02:33:52 pm
A UK study suggests that there's not much evidence Omicron results in less severe symptoms than Delta. It's less optimistic in that regard than the South African data.

It's true that it's a preliminary finding and we'll obtain more clarity as time goes on, but it's a big red flag. 

Dr Robert Wachter, the Chair of the University of California Medical Department, notes that simple mathematics means that Omicron would have to be far milder than Delta to offset its greater transmissibility and immune evasion. He considers that the UK study suggests Omicron will cause havoc in the US hospital system as a result but notes that there's some evidence from South Africa that it may burn itself out after a couple of months. He advocates hunkering down while that happens and getting the booster to ensure one's immunity is as high as it can be. He says he'll be wearing N95 masks and avoiding indoor parties or restaurants when he can't be sure whether others are fully vaccinated (and in this regard he means not only having 2 doses but also the booster).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 18, 2021, 10:52:12 pm
Dr Robert Wachter, the Chair of the University of California Medical Department, notes that simple mathematics means that Omicron would have to be far milder than Delta to offset its greater transmissibility and immune evasion. He considers that the UK study suggests Omicron will cause havoc in the US hospital system as a result but notes that there's some evidence from South Africa that it may burn itself out after a couple of months.
Yes, the devil is always in the detail, let's hope that last assertion is correct.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 19, 2021, 09:03:01 am
Losing the hyperbole for a moment, wherever you stand on covid here is a snapshot at next year for us in Melbourne. 

We have Liverpool who lost 2 players from their starting lineup on Friday morning our time and 1 from the bench because they returned a positive result to a lateral flow test.

Last night our time 6 premier league games were scheduled to go ahead and only 1 ended up getting played.

Irrespective of vaccine status (Jurgen klopp has come out on record stating his team is 100% double vaccinated at Liverpool or near enough meaning that there is likely the odd exception, and some have boosters) yet he is losing players and the competition is being shut down anyway.

Vaccination serves only one purpose.   Protection against serious illness and as we get more variants that might be a problem too. 

This isn't a pro anti or whatever post.


This is one to highlight that some of the stuff we do has no real common sense attached to it.  I was in the northern rivers area of nsw last week and on Wednesday they relaxed restrictions from check in and show proof of vaccination (way more on to it than melbourne) to walk around as you please no mask, no checking in, no proof of vaccination.  They are still doing more prophylactic testing than we are.

I dont have the answers to anything and I'm not pretending to, but this isn't going to go away, and next year we are likely facing disruptions again unless we change our testing from exposure to clinical impact.  I dont see the benefit in testing everyone for the sniffles or every time they are at an exposure site whilst our hospitalisation remains low and we have so many protected by vaccination.

Keep in mind I know how many patients are being monitored in isolation when I say this too.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 19, 2021, 09:48:43 am
Doctors push for stronger action to quash Omicron outbreaks (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/doctors-push-for-stronger-action-to-quash-omicron-outbreaks-20211218-p59ino.html). The Age.
Quote
The Omicron variant is spreading so quickly that experts fear soaring cases may overwhelm hospitals and cause mass illness and death, even if the strain is found to be significantly milder than other COVID-19 variants.

Australian Medical Association president Omar Khorshid has urged state governments including Victoria to use a combination of proven measures such as masks and social distancing as well as vaccination to flatten the new wave of COVID-19 infections.

He joined many infectious diseases experts now warning that failure to urgently take simple steps to reduce the spread of Omicron could result in the need for lockdowns or other drastic measures later.

Quote
“I feel a bit of a sense at the moment that we’ve got our heads in the sand a little bit about what’s happening with Omicron,” Professor Trauer said.

“We need to shift our mindset towards realising that we not be heading for a normal summer, particularly in places like New South Wales and Victoria.”

Quote
University of Sydney infectious diseases paediatrician Robert Booy, who has previously supported decisions made by the NSW government, said: “The restrictions in NSW are being unwound too quickly. We are now ideologically driven and the public health advice has become secondary.”

Not a great time for NSW to have a Premier from the religious right.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 19, 2021, 11:40:39 am
Not a great time for NSW to have a Premier from the religious right.
Parrotsay is a fundamentalist Christian nuffy, not dissimilar to Scomo, they have faith that fate is always in the hands of God and that God saves the righteous, so do I presume they think everyone dying is somehow immoral?

But from my school days I remember hearing a reading that went something like, "God helps those who help themselves!", I think it was intended to infer God rewards those with a work ethic! But I think Parrotsay takes that literally, and thinks it means each for their own!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 19, 2021, 11:42:16 am
The problem with Omicron isn't the severity it's the rate of transmission, that ugly R0 value keeps popping up it's head again!

We know vaccines only protect somewhere between 85% and 90% of recipients, that means despite vaccination our hospitals can be overwhelmed in very little time at all if suitable measures are not taken to slow the spread.

Australia can't keep the effects of COVID out by closing it's borders or stopping flights, that just transfers the pain into a different form or time. People keep worrying about their morning coffee and the inability to go out for brunch at the café, when they should be worrying about what will happen in Indonesia or China if Omicron progresses unchecked, and how the desperation of nearly 2 Billion people will affect Australia.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on December 19, 2021, 11:54:34 am
Not a great time for NSW to have a Premier from the religious right.

But it's happening in Queensland too.
Health and Safety have given way to political considerations.
It's lovely we've opened up for Christmas but the consequences of that won't be realised for a month two yet.
By the end of summer we could be heading the same way as NSW and Vic. in terms of numbers.

No masks ( until a day or two ago), no lockdowns, cases increasing a huge influx of visitors for Christmas and Summer Holidays.
Easing of restrictions was planned for high vaccination rates with Delta.
Omicron comes along (with probably reduced vaccination protection) but it's still full steam ahead.

Lot's of folks are less than happy with opening at this time.
Yes we have to open but at a time but it's the 'timing' of this that makes folks question the decisions.

"Merry Christmas" cards will soon be replaced by "Hope you get well soon"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 19, 2021, 01:04:53 pm
"Merry Christmas" cards will soon be replaced by "Hope you get well soon"
I hope not, but I understand that fear.

I think the Christian Right infiltration of politics has left Australia at the mercy of a religious holiday. They aren't going to close not matter what, I doubt there is a chance in hell that they'll do like Netherland and restrict Christmas Day to 2 visitors, and Netherland was quite conservative in it's restrictions yet did enough to stop the 4th wave, but the consequence of that was a general public that became complacent and they have the lowest double vax / booster rate uptake in Europe, and are now paying a high price.

Some regions are seeing Omicron cases tripling in as many days, the public in general do not understand the non-linear nature of the threat.

If you are big into Christmas do what is smart. Wear your mask in public no matter what nuffy attacks you at the shops, keep the family exposure to a minimum, stay away from the shops and public places as much as possible, reserve your social efforts over the coming week for the family and friends get together, the price of staying safe for a few days and not suffering more and wider restrictions is a very small price to pay!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on December 19, 2021, 05:38:39 pm
I think the Christian Right infiltration of politics has left Australia at the mercy of a religious holiday.

I'd say the 'religious right' has very little to do with decisions regarding Christmas.

Religion left the stage long ago.
It's Santa time.
It's the biggest family time of the year.
And it's school holidays, and therefore family holiday time....all have very little  to do with 'left and right' politics and  more to to with people pressure to relax restrictions.

Folks are off the leash, and we'll have to wait and see what the consequences are!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 20, 2021, 08:15:39 am
I'm not sure if the journalist or editor who wrote the below thought through the sub-headline, it reads like something the work experience kid would write and then be laughed out of the office.
Quote
As a human being, Matthew Knott was alarmed by much of what he was witnessing. As a journalist, he was electrified.
It's a functional admission that sensationalism and profit overshadows morality.

Was it accidental, or is it a cry for help in a world media dominated by profitable bloggers?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 20, 2021, 08:21:45 am
Only old, fat, unhealthy people die from COVID, the protestors told me.

So this bloke will be safe, 50s, vaccinated, healthy, athletic, lean, lungs of an elite singer ........................... ! :o

(https://e3.365dm.com/21/12/2048x1152/skynews-carlos-marin-il-divo_5620619.jpg)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 20, 2021, 09:27:37 am
Fauci warns Omicron will cause record-high coronavirus hospitalisations, deaths in US (https://www.theage.com.au/world/north-america/fauci-warns-omicron-will-cause-record-high-coronavirus-hospitalisations-deaths-in-us-20211220-p59iv9.html), The Age.

Quote
He continued to urge the unvaccinated to get their shots and those who have received only two doses of either the Pfizer or Moderna mRNA vaccines to get booster doses. Although vaccines cannot be the only layer of protection against the Omicron variant, he said, defeating the pandemic would not be possible without them.

If I became dictator for a day, I'd be re-imposing mask mandates for sure.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 20, 2021, 09:38:51 am
Fauci warns Omicron will cause record-high coronavirus hospitalisations, deaths in US (https://www.theage.com.au/world/north-america/fauci-warns-omicron-will-cause-record-high-coronavirus-hospitalisations-deaths-in-us-20211220-p59iv9.html), The Age.

If I became dictator for a day, I'd be re-imposing mask mandates for sure.
Ditto...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 20, 2021, 10:23:51 am
Fauci warns Omicron will cause record-high coronavirus hospitalisations, deaths in US (https://www.theage.com.au/world/north-america/fauci-warns-omicron-will-cause-record-high-coronavirus-hospitalisations-deaths-in-us-20211220-p59iv9.html), The Age.

If I became dictator dan for a day, I'd be re-imposing mask mandates for sure.

Agreed
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 20, 2021, 10:55:09 am
NSW with 2500 more cases and increasing numbers in hospital and ICU, and Boris looking at a 2 week lockdown in England.
Bit of talk that Boosters might also be pushed forward to 4 months......
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 20, 2021, 11:14:48 am
Interesting, it seems that many small non-retail businesses and traders, despite having suffered over the pandemic, have opted to close early for Christmas.

Non-retail business is slow anyway, and this week means almost nothing to many of them as companies stop discretionary spending in the lead-up to Christmas and almost nobody starts a new project at this time of year, so rather than risk getting stuck with an isolation order over Christmas just for staying open in a null week, they effectively pulled the pin last weekend.

I'm a bit surprised but it sort of makes sense, they don't want another COVID impacted holiday period!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 20, 2021, 11:23:57 am
Hard to outrun a virus ....

And fewer countries are reporting the true numbers, fearful they'll scare the horses.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 20, 2021, 01:35:43 pm
@madbluboy I see what you did there  :))
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on December 20, 2021, 04:32:53 pm
NSW with 2500 more cases and increasing numbers in hospital and ICU, and Boris looking at a 2 week lockdown in England.
Bit of talk that Boosters might also be pushed forward to 4 months......

Boris looks on the verge of losing his job over his handling of Covid, among other issues. Photos of him partying during a Covid restrictions period.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 20, 2021, 11:09:03 pm
Boris looks on the verge of losing his job over his handling of Covid, among other issues. Photos of him partying during a Covid restrictions period.
Boris had Covid and was very ill, him partying like that was terrible behaviour for a PM.
The English are their own worst enemy on a lot of fronts from Covid to cricket...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 21, 2021, 11:10:47 am
I couldn't believe that Ch7 ran a clip of Nurse Jackie pontificating on Covid last night. With the profusion of well-qualified epidemiologists and infectious disease doctors willing to talk to the media, they run a former nurse educator? Methinks someone didn't do their due diligence.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 21, 2021, 11:38:27 am
Over 3000 new cases in NSW. Having a border with NSW is like living next door to a hoarder who can't squeeze enough flammable material and accelerants into his house and backyard.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 21, 2021, 12:08:50 pm
I couldn't believe that Ch7 ran a clip of Nurse Jackie pontificating on Covid last night. With the profusion of well-qualified epidemiologists and infectious disease doctors willing to talk to the media, they run a former nurse educator? Methinks someone didn't do their due diligence.
In this regard, the variability of the reports you watch or read will always depend on the politics of the sub-editor, producer or organisation involved.

Fox(News Ltd) have even built a profitable organisation based almost purely on artificially constructed conflicts between their own shows or columnists. They learned long ago that conflict and disagreement pays. Seven or The Dot will be no different!

Because the influencing people are mostly faceless it can be hard to decode the message, you just have to remain aware that the opinion of the individual might not represent the opinion of the organisation, and vice-versa. Being deliberately flaccid is part of that process, they never want to be definitive.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 21, 2021, 12:22:55 pm
Did I hear correctly that the Aurangzeb was booed last night for announcing he'd had taken a booster shot?

Why, when he's got HCQ and Ivermectin at his disposal?

How do his supporters, rationalise his actions against the public blurb / ideology?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 21, 2021, 02:51:23 pm
What booster is everyone getting?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on December 21, 2021, 03:43:12 pm
My wife and i had Moderna yesterday.  So far no side effects.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on December 21, 2021, 04:17:59 pm
What booster is everyone getting?
Its better to mix your booster, so if you had pfizer, get moderna.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 21, 2021, 04:21:40 pm
How do his supporters, rationalise his actions against the public blurb / ideology?
I recall a George Conway interview in which he said that Trump was great at reading the anger of his supporters and playing to it and Trump knew he had to be careful about going against the flow. If Trump were to come out now and tell his supporters that they were crazy if they didn't get vaccinated and they should also wear masks, he'd become the enemy.

Whenever he admits he has been jabbed, he quickly assures his supporters that no one should challenge their decisions not to do the same. Why he doesn't just lie about it as he does about everything else is harder to figure out. Maybe he's trying to get ahead of the story in case it leaks or maybe he wants to claim the credit for the vaccine program (and if it's the latter, surely he realises his supporters don't think anyone deserves any credit for the vaccine program).

I'd probably add a gloss to Conway's analysis though. He did influence his supporters to buy into conspiracy theories by telling them Covid was a hoax or nothing to worry about or that HCQ would protect them against the Democrat disease. But once that train started rolling, he realised he'd be run over by it if he tried to stand in its way.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on December 21, 2021, 05:14:56 pm
Moderna booster tomorrow after originally vaccinating with AstraZeneca. 

We had a choice between Pfizer and Moderna and opted for the latter.  No particular reason as the side effects seem to be the same.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on December 21, 2021, 05:51:51 pm
Moderna booster tomorrow after originally vaccinating with AstraZeneca. 

We had a choice between Pfizer and Moderna and opted for the latter.  No particular reason as the side effects seem to be the same.

Had my Moderna booster today to complement the first two Astras. So far so good, no apparent ill effects.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 21, 2021, 08:31:21 pm
Modelling (IIRC from the Burnett Institute) suggests new cases in Australia may reach 200,000. That's almost 1% of the population!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 21, 2021, 08:46:57 pm
Modelling (IIRC from the Burnett Institute) suggests new cases in Australia may reach 200,000. That's almost 1% of the population!!

Their modelling has been way off so far but a broken clock is right twice a day.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 21, 2021, 08:57:42 pm
My bad - it's the Doherty Institute modelling. And it assumes no low to medium restrictions are introduced.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 22, 2021, 12:04:56 am
Modelling (IIRC from the Burnett Institute) suggests new cases in Australia may reach 200,000. That's almost 1% of the population!!

Is that per day?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 22, 2021, 06:53:16 am
Is that per day?

I believe it is ... but it's absolute rubbish.  Stupid (and downright dangerous) to even suggest it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on December 22, 2021, 07:13:53 am
200000 cases a day?
As long as their  close contacts are isolating I don't see a problem.  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 22, 2021, 07:33:31 am
I'd put them out of business if they're that inept at modelling.  Wackheads 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on December 22, 2021, 08:13:05 am
Do we have a drama pandemic?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 22, 2021, 08:22:48 am
The Public Health Unit of the University of NSW predicted 25,000 new cases a day in NSW by the end of January (while noting the prediction doesn't factor in booster shots). Bracing though these predictions might be, they highlight what exponential growth means. Another way of seeing the same phenomenon is by looking at the huge spike in actual daily figures from the UK. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 22, 2021, 08:33:07 am
Doherty modelling has proved inaccurate and tends to be worst case scenario. Governments like them that way to help sell the idea they are doing a good job dealing with Covid by always being well under those extreme targets imho. Not sure if those figures include u12s either.
Those numbers point to 8000 icu cases over the time frame used which would collapse the hospital system. Think we need to go back to masks, reducing crowd numbers, and limiting arrivals but not go into a mad panic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 22, 2021, 08:33:25 am
The Public Health Unit of the University of NSW predicted 25,000 new cases a day in NSW by the end of January (while noting the prediction doesn't factor in booster shots). Bracing though these predictions might be, they highlight what exponential growth means. Another way of seeing the same phenomenon is by looking at the huge spike in actual daily figures from the UK. 

That sounds more realistic. We always knew when we opened up that the numbers were going to shoot up. Hopefully when we're 80% triple dosed they stop broadcasting the numbers and just give the ICU and death figures.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 22, 2021, 08:43:03 am
Help might be on the way!

Melbourne researchers trial use of common blood-thinning drug heparin to combat COVID-19 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12-22/melbourne-researchers-trial-use-of-common-drug-to-combat-covid/100717224), abc.net.au.

Quote
Nearly two years later, with the help of researchers at Melbourne, Monash and Oxford Universities, his team has been able to replicate international findings that heparin can block the transmission of COVID-19 and prevent infection.

The spray coats the nose but does not go down into the lungs. The researchers say it is cheap, easy to distribute and is expected to be effective against mutant strains of the virus including the Omicron variant.

"It won't matter if a new variant comes along, this drug will block that protein from infecting the cells," Professor Campbell said.

"I'm very confident that we can demonstrate that it will work, and people will be using this before they go to the shops and before they go to school."
Quote
Director of the Medicines Manufacturing Innovation Centre at Monash University, Michelle McIntosh, has spent the past 20 months working on the best possible formulation for the nasal spray.

She said some coronavirus vaccines had limited distribution in some countries because they needed to be stored at ultra-low temperatures.

"One of the wonderful things about heparin is it is already available on the market as an approved product for another purpose, it doesn't require refrigeration and can be stored in plastic vials so it can be distributed very widely and effectively," Professor McIntosh said.

"We are not proposing this as an alternative to a vaccination, it is a supplement for people who can't be vaccinated, but we do imagine it will be very widely used."
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 22, 2021, 09:40:41 am
Irrespective of where you sit on covid, our hospitals run as lean as possible at the best of times.  They know how many are coming, what demographics, why they are likely to come and have planned to within a degree of additional capacity if and when required.

Covid has the ability to cause bedlam to that.  Think of what happened supply chain wise last year.  Everything is geared to a just in time and just enough for manufacturing.  Likewise health care to make it as resource efficient as possible.

 Anyone ever seen a hospital waiting room empty?  13 years ive been in 2 different health services and the one take away i have for everyone is whilst the model is scalable its not easy to do so for a variety of factors.

Add a pandemic with even a moderate kick up in care and presentations and you result in a lot of issues.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on December 22, 2021, 10:56:30 am
Speak to people in various industries and retail - supply chains were/are at close to collapse eg the Adblue debacle.   Seen the empty seatainer farms at Altona etc?  Just handling and moving stuff ATM is difficult.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 22, 2021, 11:34:07 am
The Public Health Unit of the University of NSW predicted 25,000 new cases a day in NSW by the end of January (while noting the prediction doesn't factor in booster shots). Bracing though these predictions might be, they highlight what exponential growth means. Another way of seeing the same phenomenon is by looking at the huge spike in actual daily figures from the UK.
All the models have to be judged in a frame of reference for the model, for example some are "if all restrictions are removed", while others base themselves on "restrictions as currently applied" and adopted.

The media just lump all the reporting and modelling in as "like for like" but it isn't, it's not the epidemiologists that are confused or in error, it's the media and also how the media is manipulated for political purposes. But it's pretty easy to cut through all that spin if you choose to do so!

The media will take a worst case scenario and report it as the peak and infer a high probability, when it reality it's the peak with a very low probability. All the predictions fall on a bell curve of some sort, even when you see a hyperbolic or parabolic curve it's usually just a subsection of a larger bell curve.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 22, 2021, 11:50:46 am
Yep, in this case the modelling assumes no attempts at suppressing spread. That means it's a worst-case scenario. Ordinarily you'd think that means it's ridiculous as governments will be forced to act. But who knows what will happen in NSW? Perrotet seems committed to ditching any restrictions. And such predictions are a useful counter to those who say we should just let it rip and learn to live with the virus. They're in a bizarre situation of saying "Don't worry about those dire predictions as the Govt won't let it rip" and then later saying that the interventions were unnecessary and useless and we should have just let it rip.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 22, 2021, 12:27:14 pm
Nobody's questioning Parrotsay's rhetoric, but it appears to be laying the foundations for deflecting blame for decisions made on economic basis over welfare.

Also, not much is being written about the low reported NSW death rate versus Vic, lower numbers in Vic for week and weeks now with proportionally higher deaths. The naysayers will claim Dan has inflated he figures, but I suspect it's more likely Parrotsay has done the exact opposite. The reason for me forming this opinion is that there seems to be a disconnect between the duress reported by NSW Health / Hospital staff and Parrotsay's reported death rates. Something seems a bit stinky!

Statistically, it should approach the national / global average once you have enough cases on a regular basis, but NSW seems to be delivering a Christmas miracle, have they have beaten the math or are they calling a spade a surfboard? Note that as of yesterday in NSW Omicron was still not yet the dominant strain but as a percentage it's rising very fast.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 22, 2021, 12:36:44 pm
3,763 new cases in NSW, 1,503 new cases in Vic. Will this be like the recent Delta outbreak where we ended up overtaking NSW?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 22, 2021, 12:38:37 pm
3,763 new cases in NSW, 1,503 new cases in Vic. Will this be like the recent Delta outbreak where we ended up overtaking NSW?
Geographically, probably that is going to be the case, but I'm not sure if Omicron follows the same rules regarding polar proximity.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 22, 2021, 12:52:17 pm
I'll wait and see what winter brings in the northern hemisphere.  They're lousy numbers already and so many countries have been lying about their figures.  180,000 cases in the States yesterday, 1800 deaths.  And climbing. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 22, 2021, 12:58:22 pm
Around 2 weeks ago (7/12/22), there were 297 cases in hospital (47 in ICU) in Victoria.

Today, there are 394 cases in hospital (70 in ICU), an increase of around 32% and 49% respectively.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 22, 2021, 02:36:53 pm
Interesting to read the Heparin claims being made in the media, I wonder what the dose is for treating Sars-CoV-2, but it's hard to see it used prophylactically given the potential bad effects of over-use.

So I presume they are talking a boutique treatment for those people with COVID who qualify as candidates.

Given strokes / haemorrhages are a potential side-effect of heparin, is it wise to be spraying up your nose in the close proximity to or bypassing the blood / brain barrier?

FYI
Quote
One way to bypass the blood brain barrier and thus treat diseases of the brain is to use the nasal route of administration and deposit drugs at the olfactory region of the nares, from where they travel to the brain via mechanisms that are still not clearly understood, with travel across nerve fibers and travel via a perivascular pathway both being hypothesized.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 22, 2021, 03:42:40 pm
Different rules for elite tennis players and public plebs it seems...Comrade Dan and Craig Tilley have organised medical exemptions for certain players unnamed to be allowed to play the Aus open, The Djoker being one of the prime suspects and they dont even have to state their vaccination status unless they choose to do so...
Seems the privacy of elite tennis players is more important than the health of Victorians..but hang on we do have Dan's anti Magna Carta Pandemic Legislation to save us......

No medical exemption for Russian tennis player Natalia Vikhlyantseva though ,forced to miss the grand slam because her vaccine isn't recognised by Australian authorities.
Vikhlyantseva, who was set to compete in qualifying for the Melbourne Park tournament in January, is vaccinated with the Sputnik V vaccine.
They must think with that rocket fuel vaccine in her body she might be a fire hazard.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 22, 2021, 04:13:38 pm
Would he be missed?  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 22, 2021, 04:26:08 pm
Would he be missed?  
The money is what they might miss,  the SA Govt are allowing a tennis tournament for the ladies to go ahead as well, with players quarantined in Victoria at the minute. If they are vaccinated then fine but Vic city folk are still locked out of SA I believe and when you have different rules for different folk where exemptions are based on the money doing the talking then you leave yourself open for criticism. People have been prevented from seeing critically ill loved ones etc yet sporting events that make big money or carry prestige are allowed to continue and that applies to all state governments.
With Omicron in its early days here in Aus you would think some consistency in rules would apply across the board and if players wont get vaccinated then they forfeit the right to play..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 22, 2021, 04:43:42 pm
Saved again ... by a rampant idiot just now on channel 9.  She pleaded with the boxing day crowd not to shout on if you happen to be masked at the MCG should you infect someone else.  Where did they dig up these nitwits?  Back to your knitting dear
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 23, 2021, 11:52:29 am
Mask mandate is back in Vic from midnight tonight. Masks indoors and outdoors in crowds of 30000 or more (except where seated). Seems the exception for seated patrons pretty much means the Boxing Day Test crowd won't have to mask.

By the way, that means the worst-case scenario posited by the Doherty Institute is now off the table as it was premised on governments and individuals making no attempts to stop the spread. Here's an article from The Age which analyses how such "predictions" should be interpreted:   Scary numbers and worst-case scenarios: Why modelling is not a forecast. (https://www.theage.com.au/national/scary-numbers-and-worst-case-scenarios-why-modelling-is-not-a-forecast-20211222-p59jm4.html)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 23, 2021, 12:28:20 pm
The UK which is about the size of Victoria and has a population of 67 million just hit 100,000 cases in a day.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 23, 2021, 01:28:18 pm
NSW is already at 47% of that UK new cases figure after adjusting for population.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 23, 2021, 01:40:32 pm
Parrottsay lifted the lid on this shizen by effectively forcing removal of restrictions nationally, he must thinks he's Russell Crow!

(https://c.tenor.com/8zqTsY1fY6sAAAAC/gladiator-russell.gif)

Instead he rode us blind into a tree full of hollow promises, now the whole country is going to suffer!

As much as he is hated, sitting at home there in WA Premier Mark McGowan must have a glib smile today, he's got bugger all COVID to deal with and a wallet full of Eastern Australian GST to spend! But he won't escape COVID, he can only delay things and hope technology catches the COVID cure before it migrates to Perth. WA Winter is coming!

(https://hobieclass.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/winter.jpeg)

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 24, 2021, 07:55:45 am
Good  (and bad) news out of the UK: Omicron hospital risk is up to 70 per cent lower than Delta, UK says, (https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/omicron-hospital-risk-is-up-to-70-per-cent-lower-than-delta-uk-says-20211224-p59jxm.html), The Age.

The good news is that:
Quote
An individual with Omicron is 50 per cent to 70 per cent less likely to be admitted to hospital, compared with the Delta strain, the UK Health Security Agency said on Thursday (local time). They are also between 31 per cent and 45 per cent less likely to attend emergency departments with Omicron than with Delta.


The bad news is that:
Quote
However, data from the HSA also showed that while a booster improves protection, it starts to wane more rapidly than with Delta, and is 15 per cent to 25 per cent lower from 10 weeks after the third dose.

The agency also cautioned that the highly infectious nature of the variant could still lead to significant numbers of severe illness that squeeze the health service. Daily cases in the UK soared to a record of 119,789 on Thursday, piling pressure on Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who is waiting until after Christmas to make a final decision on new possible restrictions.
...
It’s still unclear how the decreasing booster effect will factor into protection against severe disease. The current round of booster shots may still protect people from being hospitalised or getting severely ill, even as defence against infection wanes. UK officials want to see how that data develops before recommending a fourth dose, or moving toward a vaccine modified for Omicron.
...
Israel has already announced it will give people aged over 60 a fourth dose over fears that a booster that has not been administered within the last three to four months has lower protection against Omicron.

It'll take time to figure out whether Omicron ends up being better or worse for us than Delta. Which will have the upper hand: the increased transmissibility and vaccine evasiveness or the decreased virulence? Unfortunately, we'll have to wait until the picture becomes clearer. But for now we can still hope that Omicron will be more like the flu. Footy season 2022 might still see a return to normal.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 25, 2021, 09:04:34 am
Good  (and bad) news out of the UK: Omicron hospital risk is up to 70 per cent lower than Delta, UK says, (https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/omicron-hospital-risk-is-up-to-70-per-cent-lower-than-delta-uk-says-20211224-p59jxm.html), The Age.

The good news is that:

The bad news is that:
It'll take time to figure out whether Omicron ends up being better or worse for us than Delta. Which will have the upper hand: the increased transmissibility and vaccine evasiveness or the decreased virulence? Unfortunately, we'll have to wait until the picture becomes clearer. But for now we can still hope that Omicron will be more like the flu. Footy season 2022 might still see a return to normal.

A pipe dream.

We are going to have minimal lockdowns but maximum impact on playing lists.

The English premier league have already resxheduled 20 odd matches over the last few weeks with the latest casualty being Liverpool vs leeds tomorrow night.

Worth remembering these guys have deep squads, and heavy fixturing lists, but either way they still have trouble fielding teams with the ability to dip into their under 19 cohorts.

Liverpool played Tottenham with no less than 3 first choice players out because they returned a positive test on match day.  From an already depleted midfield through injury and suspension they started an 18 year old I've never heard of before. 

Unless we stop testing and revert to clinical presentations only, we are going to see bedlam next season as teams lose players to covid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 25, 2021, 10:15:14 am
We have to pin our hopes on the "burnout" theory: Omicron will rip through the population causing widespread infection (The Age had a headline that 10% of Londoners are infected with it now) but then it burns out just as quickly as it developed. One figure thrown around is it will take 2 months. That would do nicely for the AFL. Maybe it nixes the preseason comp, but who cares about that? Edit: It would, however, pretty much kill the AFLW season, so that's not great.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 25, 2021, 10:55:09 am
The other thing is that Covid protocols might change as we learn more about the Omicron variant. It's wise to be cautious before enough data accumulates, but when that happens it may become apparent that we can treat it like the flu (i.e. a player who tests positive withdraws but doesn't take close contacts with him).

What we shouldn't do is shoot from the hip and draw that conclusion before the data is in. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 25, 2021, 03:17:46 pm
The other thing is that Covid protocols might change as we learn more about the Omicron variant. It's wise to be cautious before enough data accumulates, but when that happens it may become apparent that we can treat it like the flu (i.e. a player who tests positive withdraws but doesn't take close contacts with him).

What we shouldn't do is shoot from the hip and draw that conclusion before the data is in.
As long as people respect sensible protocols and avoid putting our hospital staff and hospitals to the sword!

But I fear the hospital queues will be full to the brim with naysayers, it seems to be regret drives forward as many cases as the virus! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on December 25, 2021, 08:46:29 pm
As long as people respect sensible protocols and avoid putting our hospital staff and hospitals to the sword!

But I fear the hospital queues will be full to the brim with naysayers, it seems to be regret drives forward as many cases as the virus! ;)

Not quite hospital queues, yet, but testing sites have been turning people away due to the sheer numbers of people wanting to be tested.

If people can't get tested, and can't find out if they've got it, what hope do we have of containing it?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 27, 2021, 09:42:08 am
If you needed proof of how dangerous it is to fight the deep state, how about the shocking news that right-wingers attending a "Re-Awaken America" Rally (featuring Alex Jones, the My Pillow guy, & the disgraced General Flynn) have been poisoned with Anthrax.
Quote
JovanHuttonPulitzer™ #JovanHuttonPulitzer@JovanHPulitzer·
Dec 23
1. To my friends tried to keep this underwraps until we knew what we were dealing with but Evidence suggest that several of us were targeted by biological agents at an event This has wreaked havoc on my system w all of the most dangerous symptoms appearing Scary to say the least
2. From rashes, to blistering,  passing blood to 2 solid days of haculicinations Massive fever storms drenching me and not abating BUT STILL NO definitive diagnosis yet All I know is zombie symptoms would be easier than these  symptoms.
3. I want to thank you for prayers and thank you for your well wishes You guys are the best This will not take me down and it's just part of the grand adventure we are all on together God's not done w me yet so the left isn't gonna escape what's coming  Loce you all
PODCAST Special Message: Anthrax? Anarchists’ Attack? What happened in Dallas? Was this a freak exposure to bacteria or was an evil hand played in an attempt to silence the truth? Malicious or just misadventure?
https://twitter.com/JovanHPulitzer/status/1473674598868819983?s=20 (https://twitter.com/JovanHPulitzer/status/1473674598868819983?s=20)

In my opinion, there's little doubt they were targetted by biological agents at the rally. Maybe it's more likely the biological agent was Covid rather than Anthrax though. Exhibit A for that outrageous speculation would be that one of the poisoned attendees, Doug Kuzma, a Covid-denial podcaster and Ivermectin proponent, is in hospital receiving treatment for Covid, lying sedated and on a ventilator. Apparently, his lungs are badly damaged and aren't responding well to treatment.
 Right-Wing Podcaster Reportedly On Ventilator For COVID After Attending Rally, (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/doug-kuzma-covid-ventilator-reawaken-america_n_61c7c6e4e4b0bb04a6308680), HuffPost.

Don't you just love the creativity of these wingnuts? When reality hits them in the face, there's always a conspiracy theory to help them to avoid facing it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 27, 2021, 04:04:16 pm
I hereby nominate Frederic Sinistra for a Darwin Award!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 28, 2021, 04:52:06 pm
The CDC shortened the isolation period from 10 days to 5 days for those infected as well as making a similar change to the quarantine period for close contacts. This is due to growing evidence that the infected are  most infectious 2 days before and 3 days after symptoms emerge. If this were implemented in Australia, it would make it far easier for the AFL to run its competitions. Players would miss a week only. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 28, 2021, 05:19:52 pm
The CDC shortened the isolation period from 10 days to 5 days for those infected as well as making a similar change to the quarantine period for close contacts. This is due to growing evidence that the infected are  most infectious 2 days before and 3 days after symptoms emerge. If this were implemented in Australia, it would make it far easier for the AFL to run its competitions. Players would miss a week only. 

The AFL's only problem is WA who the other states need to start holding to account.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 28, 2021, 05:32:48 pm
Who gives a stuff about them?  Or their duckhead premier ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 28, 2021, 06:35:28 pm
Surely the Perth teams can just play their season as an away season!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 28, 2021, 08:16:07 pm
Surely the Perth teams can just play their season as an away season!

Or they can sit out. Maybe we could play an international rules game against them at the end of the season.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 29, 2021, 09:42:52 am
Looks like a reduction in isolation/quarantine time is being considered in Australia according to The Age. Not only that, the definition of close contact might be tweaked to reduce the number of people who are required to quarantine. As I suggested, that may have a pretty big impact at AFL level.

There's also a suggestion that at-home rapid testing is better than PCR testing in current circumstances given it's better at determining if someone is currently infectious while PCR testing can return positive results well after someone has ceased to be infectious.

All this is unfolding while Victoria is starting to spike (3767 new cases) while NSW is going exponential (11,201 new cases). And the report from Imperial College concluded "these estimates translate into Omicron VE estimates of between 0% and 20% PD2 and between 55% and 80% PD3 against Omicron, consistent with other estimates"; in other words, full vaccination with 2 doses is only 0-20% effective while the booster fares much better with 55-80% effectiveness. And being infected with Covid confers almost no resistance to re-infection with Omicron (so anti-vaxxers can stop hosting their pox-parties). Pardon me while I rush off to book in for the booster ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 29, 2021, 10:21:25 am
I never understood the advice that if you test positive at home which is 97% accurate that you should go out and line up with hundreds of people and nurses just to make sure.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on December 29, 2021, 10:33:42 am
Agreed. Lining up has always bemused me. I went to drive-through testing stations where the risk was limited to the staff who took the swabs. I did line up to get the vaccine, but there was no reason to believe that the people in the queue were any more likely to be infected than any randoms you might find in the streets (and perhaps less as vaccine clinics tried to keep the infected out). On the other hand, in the testing queues there'd be people who fear they have been infected, so there's a pretty good chance that a few people in the queue are infectious.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 29, 2021, 01:18:24 pm
Close contact definition changed to make the numbers look better by not clogging testing facilities. It's DIY testing now in the main with Rat Kits, already watched one couple walk out of the chemist because they thought the Rat Kits were free. Governments are going to have to provide them free for low income earners, pensioners etc or people won't test themselves..
You don't want symptomatic people fronting up at chemist's either infecting others because testing lines are too long. Need more collection and lab staff....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 30, 2021, 11:04:20 am
If you don't get tested, you can't test positive.  

If you don't check in anywhere, you can't be a close contact.

If people ceased these activities how would our pandemic look?

This post is half tongue in cheek, but we are traveling at massive positive case load for really low numbers in hospital currently.   Modelling forecasting a peak in feb, but the goalposts have shifted a lot over the last month. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 30, 2021, 12:52:04 pm
Very true Thry ... but how do we define cases against infection types?  Massive increases in the former, weird assignments of deaths.  That is, what is attributable to Delta as opposed to Omicron?

Deaths plummeted in the UK, they rose exponentially in the States in the last 24 hours.
And case numbers remained relatively consistent with trend.
 
What was it?  13 deaths VIC 1 death NSW and they have way over double the number of infections.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 30, 2021, 02:35:20 pm
Walked past about four chemists and all with signs saying sold out of Rapid Test kits.....Not sure how ScoMo thinks this new DIY regime is going to work if you cant get the test kits.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 30, 2021, 03:21:18 pm
Very true Thry ... but how do we define cases against infection types?  Massive increases in the former, weird assignments of deaths.  That is, what is attributable to Delta as opposed to Omicron?
Nationally they have stopped testing for variants, the results come too slowly to be of any real use anyway!

I wouldn't call 745 in NSW hospitals low numbers, I realise it's a low percentage relative to the cases, but the problem with Omicron is the the R0 is so high even at very low hospitalisation rates you can go from a few hundred in hospital to a few thousand in hospital in the blink of an eye! That is the tightrope locations like the UK and USA are walking right now, when the beds run out the death rate won't remain low!

Even so, I'm still far more worried about the lone term effects of Omicron on kids and infants, it's not being given enough respect simply because it's perceived as low death risk. But if you end up with 15% of cases having some degree of long term disability with an very wide age spread, then the co$t will be crippling to the economy for decades and decades!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on December 30, 2021, 03:26:30 pm
Walked past about four chemists and all with signs saying sold out of Rapid Test kits.....Not sure how ScoMo thinks this new DIY regime is going to work if you cant get the test kits.
All part of Scomos plan, someone else to blame.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 30, 2021, 03:30:14 pm
Interesting to read a recent report on the national outlook, when politicians promised more ICU beds in the year up to Nov 2021 the total number of available ICU beds fell by 10% because of staffing shortages!

As @Thryleon and others have pointed out, it makes no difference how many beds and ventilators you provide if there is nobody to staff them!

Presuming the trend continues, this drop is happening as COVID expands. The public think they'll be OK, they'll get Omicron and as the media states it's milder so they'll have a short stay in hospital and it will be all good, that whole fantasy can evaporate in just a week or two at the current rate of case growth!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 30, 2021, 04:10:17 pm
The staffing shortages is (for mine) a great concern.  Who wouldn't suffer burn out at the rate they've been going for 2 years.  And what we know now are the exploding cases of recent days, not those yet to come to light.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 31, 2021, 10:28:56 am
Just a couple of weeks back the media laughed at and derided that scientist in NSW who predicted 25K cases a day, most of us including myself thought he was talking worst case!

Now they are saying if they can't get the brakes on 150k a day is a possibility in NSW, God help the hospitals and staff, Australia is not equipped to deal with this, never was and never will be!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 31, 2021, 10:45:26 am
Just a couple of weeks back the media laughed at and derided that scientist in NSW who predicted 25K cases a day, most of us including myself thought he was talking worst case!

Now they are saying if they can't get the brakes on 150k a day is a possibility in NSW, God help the hospitals and staff, Australia is not equipped to deal with this, never was and never will be!
Yep, numbers today from NSW are scary, the death, hospital admission ratios etc are no worse but having so many cases increases those numbers significantly and you are right its going to stress the system bigtime.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 31, 2021, 10:53:39 am
The staffing shortages is (for mine) a great concern.  Who wouldn't suffer burn out at the rate they've been going for 2 years.  And what we know now are the exploding cases of recent days, not those yet to come to light.
ICU nurses dont earn that much more than ordinary RN's and considering the training/schooling required vs the pressure you are under you are relying on the goodwill and care factor to keep them in the job but that only stretches so far.
You also dont get many ICU trained nurses working for agencies, ditto for Cardiac and the other specializations. Agencies will send out an ordinary RN as a fill in but they often dont have the specialization required and it shouldnt be allowed but it happens.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 31, 2021, 11:16:51 am
ICU nurses dont earn that much more than ordinary RN's and considering the training/schooling required vs the pressure you are under you are relying on the goodwill and care factor to keep them in the job but that only stretches so far.
You also dont get many ICU trained nurses working for agencies, ditto for Cardiac and the other specializations. Agencies will send out an ordinary RN as a fill in but they often dont have the specialization required and it shouldnt be allowed but it happens.
Anyway EB1, that same report I read about available ICU beds dropping mentioned that to reach Australia's emergency ICU bed cap, which doubles the number of available ICU beds, you need an extra 40k fulltime ICU nurses, it's not going to happen, it's a fantasy! For each 24x7 ICU bed, you must need about 20 staff to both directly service the bed and to maintain supply chain and support logistics / services!

For example, they said if every Australia Emergency Surge ICU bed was occupied, there are not enough technicians available across the country to keep all the gadgets running for more than a month or so! They would have to change the rules / laws about compliance and calibration to make it work, but that then opens them(hospitals/staff) up to the opportunistic lawyer to litigate when things go wrong!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 31, 2021, 11:22:57 am
Just a couple of weeks back the media laughed at and derided that scientist in NSW who predicted 25K cases a day, most of us including myself thought he was talking worst case!

Now they are saying if they can't get the brakes on 150k a day is a possibility in NSW, God help the hospitals and staff, Australia is not equipped to deal with this, never was and never will be!

Doherty institute modelling suggested 250,000, not 25,000.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 31, 2021, 12:30:58 pm
Doherty institute modelling suggested 250,000, not 25,000.
And that means the sceptics were right? :o

If this was a closest to the pin there was only one winner, and it's not the naysayers, the naysayers didn't even make it through the heats! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on December 31, 2021, 12:54:15 pm
And that means the sceptics were right? :o

If this was a closest to the pin there was only one winner, and it's not the naysayers, the naysayers didn't even make it through the heats! ;)

All I'm saying is the 250,000 is a highly unlikely figure. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 31, 2021, 12:58:09 pm
All I'm saying is the 250,000 is a highly unlikely figure. 
Agree the Doherty modelling always seems extreme imho..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 31, 2021, 01:35:31 pm
Australia only did 277,000 tests yesterday and that's turning people away. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on December 31, 2021, 02:53:32 pm
Australia only did 277,000 tests yesterday and that's turning people away. 
Thats the thing that the modelling doesn't take into account.

Its all nice and pretty on a computer simulation, but reality simply cannot push through enough tests to confirm/deny people so the higher the numbers the more inaccurate they actually are.

The other day when our positive cases were down just happened to coincide with testing centres being closed down because they couldn't push through enough people. The majority of those people were simply getting tested for travel reasons.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 31, 2021, 03:59:44 pm
Thats the thing that the modelling doesn't take into account.
Agreed, in fact they already concede that the real case number is far higher.

I can't disagree with that claim because the modelling is spot on in regard to predicting 15% of tests will be positive but will represent only 30% to 50% of cases in the wider community.

So by extrapolation, to get to 250K confirmed positive cases in a day you would have to test 1.7M people, which is clearly not ever going to happen in Australia! We are not even sustainably meeting the current demand which is about 1/5th of that!

There is also a bit of an assumption, the media has gone quiet on variants like Omicron is the last, that is a big if!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on December 31, 2021, 07:57:21 pm
In Queensland they opened up despite a new variant to which they weren't certain vaccines gave adequate protection.

Now they've scrapped the need for an exit isolation test one day after it was decided on.
Folks should 'go to the beach' rather than get tested
Now they're sending 'close contact' health workers back to work.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/covid-healthcare-staff-who-are-close-contacts-to-be-ordered-back-to-work-20211231-p59l6t.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0gOeiSbE4_00wn0cQ3kPVxr9vUVjS-21wzZgdkx2l_qeBgPhD4k7ZDYio#Echobox=1640937812


And it came to pass, that at Christmas 2021 the folks in charge said WTF...and gave up.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 31, 2021, 11:26:05 pm
In Queensland they opened up despite a new variant to which they weren't certain vaccines gave adequate protection.

Now they've scrapped the need for an exit isolation test one day after it was decided on.
Folks should 'go to the beach' rather than get tested
Now they're sending 'close contact' health workers back to work.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/covid-healthcare-staff-who-are-close-contacts-to-be-ordered-back-to-work-20211231-p59l6t.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0gOeiSbE4_00wn0cQ3kPVxr9vUVjS-21wzZgdkx2l_qeBgPhD4k7ZDYio#Echobox=1640937812


And it came to pass, that at Christmas 2021 the folks in charge said WTF...and gave up.
Yep no rapid test after your 7 day quarantine ends, just head back out and infect a few others so ScoMo can save a few dollars.
All healthcare workers back on deck too at the end of their 7 day quarantine and I know that nurses who applied for leave in the Vic public system are being told to not count on getting it in the forthcoming months.
Israel using their healthcare workers as lab rats in a study for the 4th dose boosters...how many boosters can you keep having?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 01, 2022, 01:25:09 pm
Do we need a reminder that flu shots are seasonal? If we had to pay $1,000 a shot for a Covid booster, we'd need to crunch the numbers whether another shot is worth it. But when they're free (disregarding that we all pay indirectly for government expenditure), then where's the problem?

The search for the holy grail will continue: a vaccine that targets part of the virus that doesn't mutate. There was an article a little while ago that covered Australian scientists who had been developing computer technology to determine stable parts of cancer cells to target. They had broadened their research to cover Covid. A rare disease or illness only attracts limited research money and man-hours, but a global pandemic draws much more resources. Cynics will claim that Big Pharma may already have formulated such a universal vaccine but, like the Saudis supposedly hoarding all manner of petrol-replacing products, they're sitting on it so they can keep the vaccine dollars coming in. But no doubt there's a few scientists out there who'd quite like a Nobel prize for bringing the pandemic to an end. Until that happens, I'm happy to take the boosters (or new vaccines to combat new strains) from time to time.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 01, 2022, 02:16:27 pm
Here's an interview on the ABC's PM with the Director of The Doherty Institute:
Doherty Institute Director explains why COVID precautions are being eased (https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/pm/doherty-dir-explains-why-covid-precautions-easing/13693386), abc.net.au

As she explains, the settings for public health policies are dictated by risk management strategies. Given that the testing resources are fairly fixed in the short term (and the shortage of RATs is down to the Federal Govt), the changes to isolation and quarantine policies are more about making the best use of what we have.

She also notes the data from the UK and South Africa suggests that Omicron leads to milder symptoms, so that changes the risk management calculations.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 01, 2022, 06:16:37 pm
Looks like ScoMo doesnt want to foot the bill anymore for bulk testing and what has to give in return is the increase in the number of hospital admissions so that becomes a problem for the States...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 02, 2022, 02:20:37 pm
Here's an article co-written by the Director of the Doherty Institute:  Why our big COVID switch is wise (https://www.theage.com.au/national/why-our-big-covid-switch-is-wise-20211231-p59l42.html), The Age.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on January 03, 2022, 02:16:07 am
Late I know but just read a report that a Swedish tech start up, DSruptive Subdermals has developed a microchip device that can be implanted under the skin, similar to those used for pets. Apparently it would cost 100 euros and could carry a persons medical history and vaccination status, all easily scannable. Conspiracy theory?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 03, 2022, 07:51:06 am
Short steps away from nano technology. :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on January 03, 2022, 01:34:35 pm

From the time it takes from getting tested to getting a result  means some folks are on the road to recovery or in a bit of strife by the time they get their results. Rapid tests are being scalped so they're in short supply. I've just come from the shops and it's probably more noticeable than ever that folks are nervous about close contact. So much for being 'freed up' with high vaccination rates. Groups are now doing their own contact risk tracing through things like facebook and rightly or wrongly many people are probably as concerned as at any time during the pandemic. I suspect there's an element of loss of faith and many are feeling an uncertainty about things we're being told.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 03, 2022, 02:18:09 pm
High vaccination rates have helped avoid high hospitalisations & ICU admissions. And those who've been double-jabbed are in a position to receive boosters which should help even more. Gotta put that in the win column.

AFAIK, there was never any promise made that vaccinations would kill off Covid. Maybe Scotty from Marketing might have insinuated that, but none of the epidemiologists or infectious disease doctors made that claim. It was true and remains true that vaccinations were pretty much the only hope of returning to normal but that hope was dependent on Covid doing the right thing.

If there are halfwits out there who believed there was a guarantee that vaccinations = party time, then more the fool them. If they can't see that Omicron has moved the goalposts, then they're showing their stupidity.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 03, 2022, 02:50:52 pm
Talking about nonsense and stupidity:  PM says he won't 'undercut' retailers by funding free rapid antigen tests, (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-03/morrison-resists-free-rapid-antigen-testing-for-covid/100735518) abc.net.au.

Why doesn't he go the whole hog and declare that he doesn't want to undercut funeral directors by trying to limit Covid?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on January 03, 2022, 03:26:23 pm
If they can't see that Omicron has moved the goalposts, then they're showing their stupidity.

Stupid
Yep
That's pretty much the point.
The Queensland Government set an opening date based on Delta.
The time was set for a period that meant with Christmas and School Holidays there would be a huge influx of people into the State.
Omicron came along with no certainty at that time that it was a milder form of the virus and no real idea about vaccine effectiveness.... and they still went ahead with that change.
At that point they lost me.
Now there would have been many unhappy folks if that change  hadn't gone ahead....but there are a lot of equally unhappy and worried people around at the moment.
An opening at a date other than school holidays and Christmas, with most folks boosted would have been the more sensible approach once Omicron came into play.

As for hospitalisations, ICU's and deaths let's see what that looks like in 3 or 4 weeks time.
Omicron might be milder, it spreads quicker....the theory is that will even things out in terms of pressure on the health systems.
But Omicron might just as easily overwhelm that system.
Already positive cases are about a month ahead of where they were expected to be in QLD...and that's with lots of people saying what's the point in getting tested if it takes 5 days for results or not getting tested because they now don't fit the description of a ridiculous close contact definition.

I've followed all the directions from the health folk since the start of the pandemic.
Government and Health seemed to be on the same page.
Now I'm not so sure...and that destroys your confidence.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 03, 2022, 03:47:05 pm
Unfortunately, governments are too sensitive to the straw man arguments of the stupid who claim they were promised a return to normal. I'd guess that there would have been little point in the Qld government trying to suppress Christmas and NY celebrations as there would have been mass non-compliance anyway. They could have shut down commercial premises but good luck trying to stop gatherings in private premises.

Like you, I would be happy for governments to go back to the drawing board as Omicron might as well be an entirely different pandemic. Everything should be back on the table. But that does raise the issue of what would work in the battle against Omicron. Unfortunately, what worked with Covid before Delta is pretty much irrelevant now. Lockdowns and contact-tracing are so last year. It's a no-brainer now that anyone who wants to avoid contracting Covid should be getting a booster, wearing a mask when mixing with other people and avoiding crowds.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on January 03, 2022, 04:01:47 pm
From what I'm seeing here....and it may be different in other places, is that ordinary people are now taking ownership of the fight.
Now that Christmas New Year is behind us.....

They're wearing masks....even in places it's not mandated.
Socially distancing to the point where they're crossing the road to keep away from other folks.
Booking in for boosters at the first available opportunity.
Setting up facebook groups that provide information as to where positive cases have visited. (our government's given up on that)
Working from home wherever possible
....and staying home much more than in the pre-covid times.
Apart from a shop every couple of days I don't see the need to go out.

As the positive  numbers grow businesses probably won't be much better off in terms of patronage compared  to lockdowns now the festive season is behind us.
Overheads in keeping open will be hit by a lack of customers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 03, 2022, 04:03:33 pm
And a lack of staff. A coffee shop down the road from me has closed temporarily for that reason.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 03, 2022, 05:46:11 pm
And a lack of staff. A coffee shop down the road from me has closed temporarily for that reason.
I've picked up a trend amongst the youth, they are actively pursuing Omicron infections but it's not clear why.

It may be that they think once they got it they can socialise together, on the basis you can't be infected when you are already infected.

But I suspect there may be an even darker side to this, that I picked up on overhearing a phone conversation at the supermarket, and it is linked to COVID payments.

It may be for many kids, given some work low paid jobs / casual with unpaid annual leave, that it is more desirable and lucrative to be infected with Omicron and paid to isolate amongst friends during the holiday period! In effect a paid extended holiday based on the assumption Omicron is mild, but of course there is a risk!

I'm not sure how the current rules work, and if this meme travelling through the youth is legitimate?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 03, 2022, 06:08:34 pm
Meanwhile, in the paradise of Xian China, 5000 dead (minimum) and lockdown where you can't even leave your home, even for shopping.  Evergrande will fold within weeks and Grandpa Xi is headed for major trouble.  Long time comin' :) :)

   


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 03, 2022, 06:49:17 pm
Meanwhile, in the paradise of Xian China, 5000 dead (minimum) and lockdown where you can't even leave your home, even for shopping.  Evergrande will fold within weeks and Grandpa Xi is headed for major trouble.  Long time comin' :) :)

   



They are probably rounding up some more animals as we speak, if they are not using bats to create epidemics they are murdering helpless dogs in Yulin with that disgusting festival they run each year.
Disgraceful nation....Xi will have to bailout Evergrande, we will suffer of course economically with iron ore demand down and there will be a credit crunch. Most of the debt is in China so Xi and his motley crew can probably deal with it if they want to, China dont usually bail out companies but Evergrande is so big it might have to.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 03, 2022, 07:36:19 pm
It's why every hard line communist country never survives.  Stunting growth of those who've grown to thrive on some personal wealth will eventually rise and kill the leaders who would deny them their freedoms.  A very old saying; the tree of liberty must always be watered with the blood of tyrants

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on January 03, 2022, 07:39:03 pm
I've picked up a trend amongst the youth, they are actively pursuing Omicron infections but it's not clear why.

It may be that they think once they got it they can socialise together, on the basis you can't be infected when you are already infected.

But I suspect there may be an even darker side to this, that I picked up on overhearing a phone conversation at the supermarket, and it is linked to COVID payments.

It may be for many kids, given some work low paid jobs / casual with unpaid annual leave, that it is more desirable and lucrative to be infected with Omicron and paid to isolate amongst friends during the holiday period! In effect a paid extended holiday based on the assumption Omicron is mild, but of course there is a risk!

I'm not sure how the current rules work, and if this meme travelling through the youth is legitimate?

A mates 20yo son who is on a Basketball scholarship in Canada phoned home excitedly on New Years morning to let mum and dad know that he’s got Covid… 🤷🏼‍♂️
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on January 03, 2022, 07:40:08 pm
I’d have thought tyrants rather than communists.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 03, 2022, 08:48:24 pm
They are probably rounding up some more animals as we speak, if they are not using bats to create epidemics they are murdering helpless dogs in Yulin with that disgusting festival they run each year.

As a life long dog lover, their level of supposed "humanity" makes me sick. Repulsive beyond belief @ElwoodBlues1 .  >:D

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on January 04, 2022, 12:36:37 pm
I went to Woolworths for a shop this morning around 8.30am
As soon as I entered the store I was struck by the fact that the fruit and vegetable and meat sections looked like they hadn't been restocked

Luckily there weren't too many folks shopping.
They only had the express aisles and the self-checkouts open.
They had the other available staff busy starting on filling up the empty shelves.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/supermarkets-struggle-to-keep-up-with-demand-as-covid-19-spreads-among-workers/ar-AASoNJk?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 04, 2022, 09:47:59 pm
Djoker gets an exemption.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on January 04, 2022, 10:16:25 pm
Djoker gets an exemption.

It’s called “Personal responsibility”
🙄🙄
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 05, 2022, 11:50:46 am
I know this is more personal than not, but I made a decision over the holidays to resign from the health service I work at.

I have been advising a few people and they all seem to respond with, you are leaving too? 

An indicator of the general level of staff satisfaction and well being.

I have gone to a new opportunity which is a bit of a sideways move, but I dont think Ill regret leaving and the new place seems more invested in their staff.  Grabbed my booster today, and finishing up friday week.  Might use up some of that sick leave I have barely touched over the last 13 years with an "adverse reaction".



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 05, 2022, 01:12:41 pm
I know this is more personal than not, but I made a decision over the holidays to resign from the health service I work at.
Good luck in the new role @Thryleon

I think there will be a trend across all industry with people moving, either because of extended periods of duress, or simply because the pandemic has forced change to the careers they were already in. Most careers are affected in some way, change everywhere!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 05, 2022, 05:21:46 pm
Good luck in the new role @Thryleon

I think there will be a trend across all industry with people moving, either because of extended periods of duress, or simply because the pandemic has forced change to the careers they were already in. Most careers are affected in some way, change everywhere!

There will certainly be plenty of people looking for a new career.
Not sure those same people can afford the years of schooling it might take to get them to fill a lot of the health care roles that have been vacated though.

I've mentioned before that my Mother-in-law was a career nurse who 'called it quits' and retired early.
Her husband, who had a recent career change and despite only working in the industry for a few years went into an even earlier retirement.....like 10 years early!

Both off the back of Covid and the pressures/risks that it puts on you, and your extended family.

That being said, my Sister-in-law has just become a qualified doctor, so 2 out, 1 in.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 05, 2022, 05:26:22 pm
Its also worth mentioning, that my niece (20yo) now has Covid after going out for dinner somewhere. Everybody who was at that dinner now has it. Unsure if they caught it at the dinner, or one of them bought it to the dinner.

Also, my SIL's BF got covid from a recent trip to NSW just before Xmas.

Was supposed to be seeing both for xmas but both decided not to come, just in case, as they were feeling unwell. Smart call, and thankful for that call, dodged 2 bullets in 1 day.

Had a friend of mine tell me that one of their family members deliberatly decided not to get tested just in case the test came back positive as they didn't want to miss their xmas catchup! Thankfully, they eventually got tested, negative, but that would've infected about 20 others.

Gone are the days where you didn't know anyone with covid.
Its coming for all of us sooner or later.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 05, 2022, 05:42:18 pm
Good luck in the new role @Thryleon

I think there will be a trend across all industry with people moving, either because of extended periods of duress, or simply because the pandemic has forced change to the careers they were already in. Most careers are affected in some way, change everywhere!

Ive been told the opportunity I am going to is only open because the person who vacated it refused to get vaccinated.

Ill be based at another government organisation, but on behalf of a managed service provider.

Its a brave new world for me, I have spent the last 13 years at 2 health services so this will be a very different scenario.  Note to anyone who is interested in a leg up, there are opportunities available that wouldn't ordinarily be open for people who might fall short on qualifications, simply because there is a shortage of people out there and a lot of roles are opening up because of Covid.  You might even find, that previously where one person was required companies are putting 2 resources in, just in case of a covid layoff.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 05, 2022, 06:15:02 pm
Note to anyone who is interested in a leg up, there are opportunities available that wouldn't ordinarily be open for people who might fall short on qualifications, simply because there is a shortage of people out there and a lot of roles are opening up because of Covid.  You might even find, that previously where one person was required companies are putting 2 resources in, just in case of a covid layoff.

You'll be fine Thry ....your history and work ethic stands you in good stead :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 05, 2022, 06:35:23 pm
Ive been told the opportunity I am going to is only open because the person who vacated it refused to get vaccinated.

Ill be based at another government organisation, but on behalf of a managed service provider.

Its a brave new world for me, I have spent the last 13 years at 2 health services so this will be a very different scenario.  Note to anyone who is interested in a leg up, there are opportunities available that wouldn't ordinarily be open for people who might fall short on qualifications, simply because there is a shortage of people out there and a lot of roles are opening up because of Covid.  You might even find, that previously where one person was required companies are putting 2 resources in, just in case of a covid layoff.




Thry, You will be fine as Cap suggested, we know a few frontline nurses who have called it quits or gone into other healthcare areas. There is a burnout factor in healthcare services and I reckon you have done your time and will be happier elsewhere.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on January 05, 2022, 06:45:16 pm
Yep
Good luck with the change Thry.

There are quite a few areas that will be impacted long term by the pandemic.

It's a bit bizarre
Just around where I live roads and shops today are as quiet, in fact quieter, than at any time during lockdowns.
So we open up for the sake of the economy, but people have introduced their own forms of lockdown.
Not sure where that leaves the economy.

It's probably just a period of readjustment after Christmas, combined with increasing case numbers...but some businesses are probably no better off than they were during lockdown.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 05, 2022, 07:27:07 pm
 Vic Ambulance service has gone code red which means not enough vehicles/crews to service the metro area.
Long lines at Western health ER with Covid symptoms and rumours of lockdown measures...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 06, 2022, 09:32:31 am
Finally, there's some reason to be happy that Barnaby Joyce is back in the Cabinet. Let's hope he can use the skills honed in dealing with Johnny Depp against The Joker. He'd be much better than the spineless Scotty from Marketing who has spent the last week trying to avoid responsibility for the situation. Now his own Border Force is involved, that aint going to wash anymore.

I never warmed to Djokovic even after the shuttle drivers who drove players from their hotels to the stadium described him as one of their friendliest and funny customers. But the arrogance is out there for all to see now. Can you imagine Federer or Nadal acting in this way?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 06, 2022, 09:40:18 am
We gave him an exemption, copped massive backlash as he was flying here then detained him for 10 hours before changing our minds. Laughing stock of the world.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on January 06, 2022, 10:02:30 am
We gave him an exemption, copped massive backlash as he was flying here then detained him for 10 hours before changing our minds. Laughing stock of the world.

Difficult to describe it any differently.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on January 06, 2022, 10:09:20 am
Finally, there's some reason to be happy that Barnaby Joyce is back in the Cabinet. Let's hope he can use the skills honed in dealing with Johnny Depp against The Joker. He'd be much better than the spineless Scotty from Marketing who has spent the last week trying to avoid responsibility for the situation. Now his own Border Force is involved, that aint going to wash anymore.

I never warmed to Djokovic even after the shuttle drivers who drove players from their hotels to the stadium described him as one of their friendliest and funny customers. But the arrogance is out there for all to see now. Can you imagine Federer or Nadal acting in this way?

Yep.

SloMo is to leadership what a flathead is to a marlin. He has two cards in his deck - 1) Slogans ...2) (Shallow) Pep talks. Sometimes he marvelously combines the two. Dutton is rubbing his hands together.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 06, 2022, 10:11:50 am
Another sister in law of mine now has covid.
Getting too close to home.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 06, 2022, 10:13:59 am
Another sister in law of mine now has covid.
Getting too close to home.

I know heaps of people now. Will be shocked if I don't have it by the end of the month.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 06, 2022, 10:20:11 am
Yep, I'm glad I'm getting a booster today.

Surely, the Federal Govt could have cancelled his visa anyway on character grounds, to wit being an outspoken anti-vaxxer. And then there's his father's feeble attempt at mounting an insurrection, although to be fair anti-vaxxers everywhere are now swapping their hi-vis gear for "I love Novak" T-shirts before heading out for another rally (if they can find any mates who have such T-shirts, that is).

Love Titus O'Reilly's
TWEET (https://twitter.com/TitusOReily/status/1478840549490577415?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet).

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 06, 2022, 10:36:51 am
I know heaps of people now. Will be shocked if I don't have it by the end of the month.
I can't get my booster yet (another few weeks i think)
my kids can't get vaccinated yet.

going back to work/school (from holidays) is going to cause a lot of dramas.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 06, 2022, 10:45:20 am
We gave him an exemption, copped massive backlash as he was flying here then detained him for 10 hours before changing our minds. Laughing stock of the world.

Which government authority gave him an exemption?  THAT'S the question
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on January 06, 2022, 10:46:16 am
I know heaps of people now. Will be shocked if I don't have it by the end of the month.

When you factor in the number of folks who get C19 and are asymptomatic, plenty of us may have already had it and didn't know!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on January 06, 2022, 10:48:13 am
Love Titus O'Reilly's
TWEET (https://twitter.com/TitusOReily/status/1478840549490577415?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet).

 :))  :)) Love your work, Titus!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 06, 2022, 10:59:46 am
Which government authority gave him an exemption?  THAT'S the question

Federal and Victorian authorities reviewed all the applications. Problem is they're blind applications, they didn't know Novak's was approved till he announced it. Would have been interesting if he didn't announce it and just rocked up, might have got through.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 06, 2022, 11:04:33 am
Which government authority gave him an exemption?  THAT'S the question
No it isn't. AFAIK, the framework is that the Victorian Govt is responsible for determining whether people, including travellers, have permission to work in the State. The Federal Govt has the constitutional power and responsibility of regulating entry into Australia. The Federal Government has the power to refuse entry to someone who has a work permit in Victoria.

It appears there is a difference between the Victorian Govt's grounds for a medical exemption and those the Federal Govt recognises. The Victorian Govt accepts infection with Covid in the preceding 6 months as a ground for granting a medical exemption while the Federal Govt does not. Both Govts are entitled to their own standards.

The real question is why the Federal Govt didn't make this clear before Djokovic flew to Australia. It's not as though it his arrival is a surprise. The debate over whether Djokovic should be allowed to play has been going on for months. Surely, someone in the Ministry of Immigration could have been asked to look into the issue in the months before it culminated in his arrival. Maybe they're all flat out trying to keep asylum seekers in Nauru. 

PS: This is all a bit speculative as none of us knows exactly why Djokovic was given an exemption and why the Border Force decided his paperwork was out of order. I hope any Federal Court action will reveal exactly what went on and there are no restrictions preventing the press from reporting on it. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 06, 2022, 11:21:16 am
He tried to get around the system ... and the Federal court should not help him.  Send him home.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 06, 2022, 11:29:58 am
If Djokovic was given a medical exemption based on infection with Covid over the preceding 6 months, I hope that claim was supported by clear medical evidence. I'll explode if it becomes apparent Djokovic was taken at his word that he tested positive on a self-administered RAT and he didn't see any doctors because he doesn't believe in that sciency stuff. There's no way avowed anti-vaxxers should be allowed to get away with "the dog ate my homework" excuses.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 06, 2022, 11:49:53 am
What annoys me even more is the Serbian President calling in the Australian ambassador.

Over a bl00dy tennis player?  Grow up.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 06, 2022, 11:53:18 am
What annoys me even more is the Serbian President calling in the Australian ambassador.

Over a bl00dy tennis player?  Grow up.

Well they said he could come and then locked him in a room for 10hrs.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 06, 2022, 12:00:39 pm
Have you ever watched Border Security on TV? That's the way it's done. Generally, if the paperwork's rejected the traveller will have the option of taking the next flight out. If they want to challenge the decision, then they're detained until that challenge runs its course. Sure, it's okay for the average traveller to be locked in a room for 10 hours, but Djokovic should have been allowed to leave with his entourage because he isn't the average traveller.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 06, 2022, 12:04:13 pm
Well they said he could come and then locked him in a room for 10hrs.
It now looks like his claim of having an exemption is bogus, there are leaks that claim the reason given is 'natural immunity" to COVID.

So at the moment it looks like Djoker just rolled up and tried to legally bully his way into the country never having had a exemption or visa to travel here without immunisation!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 06, 2022, 12:07:37 pm
It now looks like his claim of having an exemption is bogus, there are leaks that claim the reason given is 'natural immunity" to COVID.

So at the moment it looks like Djoker just rolled up and tried to legally bully his way into the country never having had a exemption or visa to travel here without immunisation!

That's not what Craig Tiley said yesterday.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 06, 2022, 12:12:59 pm
It's too early to say whether you're right or wrong, MBB. We're in the dark. At the very least, the Federal Government should have made its position clear to Djokovic before he jumped on the flight. Scotty from Marketing is acting as if his arrival was unexpected but it wasn't.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 06, 2022, 12:14:17 pm
That's not what Craig Tiley said yesterday.
It looks like Tiley and others may have taken Djoker or his entourage at their word and were potentially led up the garden path, I suppose given medical record / privacy issues they had no choice but to believe it.

Now it seems, to me at least, that the reports now surfacing indicate someone has lied!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 06, 2022, 12:15:50 pm
It's too early to say whether you're right or wrong, MBB. We're in the dark. At the very least, the Federal Government should have made its position clear to Djokovic before he jumped on the flight. Scotty from Marketing is acting as if his arrival was unexpected but it wasn't.
This position assumes the question was asked before he left, this seems to contradict reports that the application failed in flight, so it looks like nobody checked before he left.

It may be the media reports of having an exemption were all part of the plan to sway public opinion in an attempt to apply political pressure and get past the local customs and quarantine rules.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 06, 2022, 12:17:43 pm
Tennis players are frequent flyers all over the world. They need to know that they can enter a country if they've been approved.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 06, 2022, 12:18:21 pm
This position assumes the question was asked before he left, this seems to contradict reports that the application failed in flight, so it looks like nobody checked before he left.

It may be the media reports of having an exemption were all part of the plan to sway public opinion in an attempt to apply political pressure and get past the local customs and quarantine rules.

We're you asleep yesterday?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 06, 2022, 12:34:19 pm
We're you asleep yesterday?
It looks like the system was being gamed, they(someone) placed a bet they could bully their way through the system using public pressure to get a special exemption, and lost the bet!
Quote
Federal health authorities told Tennis Australia boss Craig Tiley on two occasions in writing that people who were not vaccinated and had contracted COVID-19 in the past six months would not be granted quarantine-free travel to Australia.

The emergence of two letters from the Department of Health and Health Minister Greg Hunt in November casts doubt over why tennis star Novak Djokovic was granted an exemption to play in the Australian Open by health panels set up by Tennis Australia and the Victorian government.
Yesterday people were blaming Dan and Victoria, and it looks like at State level politics wasn't even involved!

Yet people want to stick with yesterday's headlines even though they now appear to be proven false/wrong!

What some stated publicly over the last two days was clearly false.
Quote
According to multiple sources, the world No.1 men’s player applied for an exemption on the basis that he had contracted COVID-19 in the previous six months.

In a letter sent to Mr Tiley on November 18, Department of Health first assistant secretary Lisa Schofield said “people who have previously had COVID-19 and not received a vaccine dose are not considered fully vaccinated”.

Ms Schofield said such people would “not be approved for quarantine-free entry, regardless of whether they have received foreign vaccination exemptions”.
They've known this for two months, it was repeated to them again on the 29th of Nov, and they still chose to roll up without an exemption, yet they claimed they had an exemption just yesterday knowing they didn't have one.

If this was a Chinese tennis player some would be asking for them to be instantly deported! Well maybe they should be, but so should Djoker!

Anyway, all it seems Djoker needs to do is the quarantine period, and he's good to go!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 06, 2022, 12:55:07 pm
If Novak was a nobody he would be through but because he is high profile vocal antivaxxer they blocked him.
Exemptions are supposed to be for people who want to be vaccinated but can't. We know the Djoker will never get vaxxed so he should have been told he was not welcome from the moment it was mandated for anyone who wants to work in Victoria.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 06, 2022, 12:59:47 pm
If Novak was a nobody he would be through but because he is high profile vocal antivaxxer they blocked him.
Exemptions are supposed to be for people who want to be vaccinated but can't. We know the Djoker will never get vaxxed so he should have been told he was not welcome from the moment it was mandated for anyone who wants to work in Victoria.
It was the Feds who blocked his non-quarantine entry into Australia, twice!

All he has to do is complete quarantine, like everybody else in the same situation inducing the "nobodies"! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 06, 2022, 01:10:19 pm
That would get him in the country but not the tournament. He needed the medical exemption to play tennis in Victoria.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 06, 2022, 01:27:39 pm
Bit of a worry that a man in his 20s dies in the NSW from Covid, especially as he allegedly had no underlying conditions. I guess he may have had an undiagnosed underlying condition for all we know, but still its a worry.

I've had the booster now, so in 2 weeks time I'll be mosh-pit-ready.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 06, 2022, 04:02:40 pm
https://www.foxsports.com.au/tennis/australian-open-2022-novak-djokovic-visa-latest-news-detained-at-airport-deported-scott-morrison-press-conference-analysis/news-story/15c8d0eb74c067622b696770febb01dd

Not flattering ....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 06, 2022, 04:35:44 pm
This hit the nail on the head:
Quote
Whatever the case, it’s hard to escape the feeling all of this government blowback was put into play during Djokovic’s flight as politicians quickly realised the Pandora’s box they’d invited in by not flatly rejecting Djokovic’s application the moment it arrived.

Scotty from Marketing had tried to say it was up to the Victorian Govt to determine whether players could play and he tried to wash his hands of it and deny any responsibility. Then Djokovic put him on the spot and, suddenly, it became a Fed Govt issue. Scotty from Marketing could easily have sent a clear message through the media or even directly to Djokovic. He's hardly a man of mystery as his every move is foreshadowed in his tournament schedule and he has an agent who is happy to field sponsorship and advertising offers at any time of the day or night.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 06, 2022, 05:58:25 pm
Interesting headline in YahooSport: "Aussie tennis icon takes brutal swipe at 'tone deaf' Djokovic". Tennis fans might be surprised to find out that the icon was Sam Groth. Surely that underestimates his importance to the sport. Maybe Legendary Australian Superstar would be more fitting ... 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on January 06, 2022, 10:04:19 pm
Heard a great joke today... "Djokervic should play doubles with a CoVid nurse,  that way the crowd get a chance to cheer a real hero"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 07, 2022, 07:38:26 am
Heard a great joke today... "Djokervic should play doubles with a CoVid nurse,  that way the crowd get a chance to cheer a real hero"

What about an unvaxxed nurse? Did they lose their hero badge in December?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 07, 2022, 07:54:08 am
Giving Novak an inside view of that detention centre might bite Scomo on the ar$e.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 07, 2022, 08:08:00 am
Giving Novak an inside view of that detention centre might bite Scomo on the ar$e.

Why?  He should have just flown home.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 07, 2022, 08:24:22 am
Why?  He should have just flown home.

We have given a world wide star an inside look at how we treat asylum seekers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 07, 2022, 08:47:57 am
Obviously I don't glorify a tennis player to anywhere near the level you do.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 07, 2022, 09:19:23 am
Is anyone really surprised that amateur hour and red tape seems to be the order of the day?


For those that are playing at home, Novak is not your regular anti vaxer.

He's a confessed Vegan which makes his feats to become not only world number one, but arguably the greatest Male Tennis player of all time even more remarkable.


The irony is not lost on me, that most people seem to be making this more about how they view Novak on a personal level. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 07, 2022, 09:21:12 am
Is anyone really surprised that amateur hour and red tape seems to be the order of the day?
Also legal loopholes, media spin, deception, white male privilege and theft.
 
In the long run, this guy will leave quarantine, roll up to play, get armchair treatment from the event organisers to placate his rage, and earn yet another hollow victory built more of intimidation and deception than skill!

Whingers are winners!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 07, 2022, 09:24:19 am
Also legal loopholes, media spin, deception, white male privilege and theft.
 
No one is spinning more than the people on this forum.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 07, 2022, 09:26:45 am
No one is spinning more than the people on this forum.
Yes, you are absolutely right, Djoker really is Jesus!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on January 07, 2022, 09:35:55 am
More about bureaucratic bungling, politics and incompetence.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 07, 2022, 10:04:31 am
Is anyone really surprised that amateur hour and red tape seems to be the order of the day?


For those that are playing at home, Novak is not your regular anti vaxer.

He's a confessed Vegan which makes his feats to become not only world number one, but arguably the greatest Male Tennis player of all time even more remarkable.


The irony is not lost on me, that most people seem to be making this more about how they view Novak on a personal level. 
Similar could've been said about a former world number 1 who came back from cancer to reclaim his title.

I'm not sure if tennis players are on the same gear as cyclists, Lance Armstrong says hi, but it's hardly done with just diet and hard work.
Maria Sharapova was on something legal for a decade before it was banned.

Personal or not, don't put these athletes up on a pedestal, you will be disappointed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 07, 2022, 10:10:30 am
No Vax, so no Visa and no medical exemption.. What was so difficult.?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 07, 2022, 10:15:24 am
He's so used to pushing around chair umpires and tournament directors that he naturally assumes he can do that outside the tennis bubble.

You can see that in the reaction of Novak and Serena to being ejected from the US Open (Novak for smacking a ball into a lineswoman's throat and Serena for threatening to shove a ball down the throat of a diminutive lineswoman). Normal people would realise they'd gone too far and be crestfallen but not these 2. Novak blew off the scheduled press conference after the game which would have been a perfect opportunity to show remorse. Serena's reaction to being docked points for coaching from the stands was the classic reaction of someone who thinks rules should be bent for the stars.

But why wouldn't they feel they have that privilege? After all, the ATP and WTA are run by the players. Unlike team sports, there's no coach who can discipline them either. The players employ their coaches and are free to sack them if they speak too freely. We've seen how well Tennis Australia was able to control Bernard Tomic when he started throwing his weight around.

The classic was when Richard Gasquet was able to escape a ban after a positive test on match day for cocaine. He argued it must have been on the lips of a girl he kissed in a bar which outraged the girl involved. And Andre Agassi boasted in his autobiography that he was also able to avoid a drugs ban by forging a letter from his mum.

The truly remarkable thing is that the sport has also thrown up 2 role models in Federer and Nadal. How did that happen?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 07, 2022, 10:27:45 am
No Vax, so no Visa and no medical exemption.. What was so difficult.?

Rafael Nadal did a number on him and backed Australia.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 07, 2022, 10:29:20 am
Bit of a worry that a man in his 20s dies in the NSW from Covid, especially as he allegedly had no underlying conditions. I guess he may have had an undiagnosed underlying condition for all we know, but still its a worry.

I've had the booster now, so in 2 weeks time I'll be mosh-pit-ready.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/nsw/talented-powerlifter-and-scientist-identified-as-young-man-who-died-with-covid-20220107-p59mht.html

Another reason to get the booster.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 07, 2022, 10:38:24 am
A Guardian article makes an interesting point. The next major on the calendar is the French Open. Macron has declared that he wants to "piss off" unvaccinated citizens, so unless Covid dies away by May Novak could be banned from playing there.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 07, 2022, 10:39:43 am
https://www.theage.com.au/national/nsw/talented-powerlifter-and-scientist-identified-as-young-man-who-died-with-covid-20220107-p59mht.html

Another reason to get the booster.
Yep, he was double-vaccinated too and that didn't save him.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on January 07, 2022, 10:40:37 am
I think it was Weimar who said something yesterday like "the vaccines have only 10% efficacy after 4 months".  I nearly drove off the road when I heard that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 07, 2022, 10:48:37 am
Rafael Nadal did a number on him and backed Australia.

Wonder why? no conflict there lol. With Novak forced out it's a hollow win for whoever takes the crown which would be sad if it's Zverev's maiden.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 07, 2022, 10:49:47 am
A Guardian article makes an interesting point. The next major on the calendar is the French Open. Macron has declared that he wants to "piss off" unvaccinated citizens, so unless Covid dies away by May Novak could be banned from playing there.

This might add to his legacy like Muhammad Ali.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 07, 2022, 10:58:08 am
I think it was Weimar who said something yesterday like "the vaccines have only 10% efficacy after 4 months".  I nearly drove off the road when I heard that.
Governments have undersold the omicron strain and now its starting to bite the hospital system. Staff being pulled from other wards in hospitals to try and cope with the influx.
NSW health system are expecting 400 hospital cases per day and will have to triage patients.
We have three family members with Covid and two are very unwell and are are only 30.
We should have had lockdowns of sorts when the testing system was overwhelmed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 07, 2022, 11:00:35 am
Except that Ali's holiday was a consequence of refusing to fight a stupid war in which thousands of people died and Novak's is a consequence of his refusal to take a vaccine which is keeping thousands of people alive. They can be compared only because they occupy opposite ends of the spectrum.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 07, 2022, 11:24:55 am
We have three family members with Covid and two are very unwell and are are only 30.
We should have had lockdowns of sorts when the testing system was overwhelmed.

I agree ... we jumped too early.  The case numbers are staggering and I certainly have no faith in the accuracy of the reported numbers any longer from many many countries. 

Best wishes to your family members EB.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 07, 2022, 11:37:46 am
I agree ... we jumped too early.  The case numbers are staggering and I certainly have no faith in the accuracy of the reported numbers any longer from many many countries. 

Best wishes to your family members EB.
Thanks mate..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 07, 2022, 11:43:44 am
https://www.theage.com.au/national/nsw/talented-powerlifter-and-scientist-identified-as-young-man-who-died-with-covid-20220107-p59mht.html

Another reason to get the booster.
People in general are not taking this Omicron variant seriously, they are assessing risk under the old fake media parameters in which Sars-CoV-2 was alleged not to be very serious for kids. That was never true and Omicron is different/worse for kids and youth, maybe it's milder for adults in the long term, the scientists have been telling us this for weeks and weeks and nobody in the mainstream media is listening.

The media is full of and run by adults and old people, taking a very selfish perspective and basically throwing kids and youth to the wolves!

All the premises about COVID being mild and not serious for kids are bullcrap, and completely ignore the potential long term non-lethal effects of getting Sars-CoV-2 infection. The foolish "COVID doesn't affect kids" perspective is built on the false premise that "If it's non-lethal it's OK!"

Despite being not as frequent the potential serious side-effects of COVID for youth and children are every bit as acute as Chicken Pox, Mumps, Measles or Rubella!

Don't listening to Facebook, Tik Tok or Instagram, they don't care about your kids, they only care about clicks!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on January 07, 2022, 01:12:22 pm
Just to let everyone know there is a nasty, non-covid virus out in the community at the moment.

My wife and I had our booster shots on 20 December.  On 28 December we became ill, showing all of the covid symptoms except for not having a temperature.  The results of two RAT tests for each of us were negative, but we are still too ill to leave home.

Our daughter has told us that a friend of hers in her forties, double vaccinated, has been ill with the same symptoms since Christmas Day and has also tested negative.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 07, 2022, 01:51:29 pm
Just to let everyone know there is a nasty, non-covid virus out in the community at the moment.

My wife and I had our booster shots on 20 December.  On 28 December we became ill, showing all of the covid symptoms except for not having a temperature.  The results of two RAT tests for each of us were negative, but we are still too ill to leave home.

Our daughter has told us that a friend of hers in her forties, double vaccinated, has been ill with the same symptoms since Christmas Day and has also tested negative.
Yep, @Macca37 I can confirm this, I have contacts suffering the very same, nasty cough, sore throat, congestion, loss of appetite, multiple negative COVID tests. Our local Chemist was the first to alert us to it, but they don't want to make a big deal about it because they still want people to make sure they get COVID tested if the have such symptoms.

I don't need to remind people the health authorities have been warning of this, nature deplores a vacuum and the pandemic has left a gaping hole for a new flu or some other virus to slot into!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 07, 2022, 01:54:07 pm
Yep, @Macca37 I can confirm this, I have contacts suffering the very same, nasty cough, sore throat, congestion, loss of appetite, multiple negative COVID tests. Our local Chemist was the first to alert us to it, but they don't want to make a big deal about it because they still want people to make sure they get COVID tested.
Not sure how accurate it is but i've heard reports that omicron is better detected via a saliva swab and the up the nose ones are coming back negative, even if the patient has it.

Could explain a few things with people being sick, but negative.

Not sure how accurate any of that is though.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 07, 2022, 01:59:21 pm
Not sure how accurate it is but i've heard reports that omicron is better detected via a saliva swab and the up the nose ones are coming back negative, even if the patient has it.

Could explain a few things with people being sick, but negative.

Not sure how accurate any of that is though.
The tests I've seen people using require you to swab both the nasal cavity and the back of the throat.

The drive through tests have always been like that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 07, 2022, 02:07:38 pm
Similar could've been said about a former world number 1 who came back from cancer to reclaim his title.

I'm not sure if tennis players are on the same gear as cyclists, Lance Armstrong says hi, but it's hardly done with just diet and hard work.
Maria Sharapova was on something legal for a decade before it was banned.

Personal or not, don't put these athletes up on a pedestal, you will be disappointed.


I don't idolise people very flippantly.

In fact, my idolatry of sports stars wanes the more money involved in becoming the greatest there is.  It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.  Very difficult to become the world number 1, but when you get there, the dollars for simply being there can sustain you at the top (ala Hawks, and recruiting players cheaply during their recent reign).


Nobody should have lost their livelihood over these choices, and this recent Novak flip flop makes the government look like the rabble they are.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 07, 2022, 02:26:56 pm
Not sure how accurate it is but i've heard reports that omicron is better detected via a saliva swab and the up the nose ones are coming back negative, even if the patient has it.

Could explain a few things with people being sick, but negative.

Not sure how accurate any of that is though.

I know someone who did a rapid test and a PCR within an hour of each other and the rapid was  negative but the PCR came back positive.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 07, 2022, 03:04:06 pm
Macca, the flu is going to rebound now the lockdowns have ended. Despite the anti-vaxxers arguing that Covid is no worse than the flu and behaving as if the flu is no worse than a paper cut, the reality is that flu can be a serious disease. Unfortunately, there's also the Flurona which is where someone catches both the flu and covid. Best wishes on a swift recovery for your wife and yourself.

Interesting comments from Abul Rivzi, a former Deputy Secretary of the Department of Immigration:  Why stopping Djokovic at airport was worst outcome for all, (https://www.9news.com.au/national/novak-djokovic-visa-debacle-an-australian-failure-former-immigration-official-claims/6a63bad0-5d7f-4551-8bc9-849d54503ed3), 9News.

He notes that the Govt blew 2 opportunities to stop Djokovic before he arrived in Australia: 1. They should have refused the visa instead of granting it, & 2. Australian Border Force staff would have been supervising the boarding of the flight in Dubai (?) and should have pulled Djokovic out of the queue or off the plane.

Quote
Mr Rizvi said intercepting and turning people around at the border "should only be done in absolute emergencies or when there has been dramatic changes in circumstances or some other alarming thing has happened."

Djokovic might then be able to rely on an administrative law principle: he had a legitimate expectation that he would be admitted to Australia and undertook a lengthy flight in reliance on that expectation.

Mr Rivzi hit the nail on the head when he pretty much described Scotty from Marketing's MO in dealing with fiascos:

Quote
If Djokovic wins his appeal, the Government could appeal that ruling.
However, if Djokovic wins, Mr Rizvi said the Government will probably "let it go from that point and look to blame somebody else".
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 07, 2022, 03:37:18 pm
Australian Border Force staff would have been supervising the boarding of the flight in Dubai (?) and should have pulled Djokovic out of the queue or off the plane.

THAT would be an international airport first.  Don't believe it for a second
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 07, 2022, 03:42:25 pm
I wouldn't have the faintest one way or the other. But that's what he said.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on January 07, 2022, 05:20:12 pm
THAT would be an international airport first.  Don't believe it for a second

I’m no expert but I couldn’t see how/why Australian Border Force Officers would be loitering at overseas international airports either, barring a specific “sting”
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 07, 2022, 05:32:31 pm
I’m no expert but I couldn’t see how/why Australian Border Force Officers would be loitering at overseas international airports either, barring a specific “sting”

It's an impossibility @northernblue ... he's either an idiot, or a liar. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 07, 2022, 05:56:10 pm
This from the AFR on 10/3/20:
Quote
Travel advisories for Italy look set to be strengthened this week, as Australian Border Force officers are deployed at overseas airports to enforce coronavirus protections.
Border Force officers monitor passengers at overseas airports (https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/border-force-officers-monitoring-passengers-at-overseas-airports-20200310-p548k4).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 07, 2022, 06:11:43 pm
This from the AFR on 10/3/20: Border Force officers monitor passengers at overseas airports (https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/border-force-officers-monitoring-passengers-at-overseas-airports-20200310-p548k4).

Near on 2 years ago.  And did it actually transpire? 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 07, 2022, 06:21:57 pm
I look forward to your research on this issue. Or it might form part of Djokovic's case. There's a few issues that are just speculative at the moment.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 07, 2022, 07:10:43 pm
I know someone who did a rapid test and a PCR within an hour of each other and the rapid was  negative but the PCR came back positive.
That's quite possible, PCR is almost 1000x more sensitive and will pick up an infection much earlier.

I've heard testing specialists advise that lateral flow tests(RAT) should be repeated about 3 days apart before an all clear is given. I think some states have something similar as a basic requirement. A lot of tests that can be bought come in pairs for that very reason.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 07, 2022, 10:18:32 pm
Didn't realise registering your positive Rat test made you eligible for a $750 payment.
That's a nice invitation for rorting...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 07, 2022, 11:09:04 pm
Didn't realise registering your positive Rat test made you eligible for a $750 payment.
That's a nice invitation for rorting...

Why do you think you can't buy the bloody tests anywhere!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 08, 2022, 07:29:40 am
Well, well well ... looking for a new job tiley?

https://www.news.com.au/sport/tennis/novak-djokovic-fiasco-leaked-tennis-australia-letter-damning-for-organisation/news-story/21e176212d1ec7e362018d0b7a13b6b0
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 08, 2022, 10:47:42 am
Yep, it's hard to see how he can stay. He was either trying to circumvent the entry requirements so he could attract the best field or he was unbelievably stupid. Either way, he goes.

Does this help or hurt Djokovic? It helps Djokovic in a PR sense as it suggests he may well have been relying on TA advice rather than trying to barge his way through. TA is the bad guy rather than him. But it might be bad for Djokovic's Federal Court case. It shifts blame away from the Federal Govt to a private organisation. The Federal Govt would be able to counter Djokovic's attempt to suggest the Federal Govt had created a legitimate expectation he was entitled to enter Australia. It was TA which created that legitimate expectation. Moreover, once TA had been firmly advised that the "infected within 6 months" exception wasn't valid for entry to Australia, the Federal Govt would be able to argue it was reasonable for it to assume that TA would ensure medical exemptions would meet the Federal Govt standards.

On the other hand, the Federal Govt isn't totally off the hook. The letter shows it was well aware that there was a glaring difference between medical exemptions granted for the purposes of Victorian events and those that would be valid for entry into Australia. In other words, it was well aware that medical exemptions granted in Victoria couldn't be relied on to establish a right to enter. It should have scrutinised entry paperwork more carefully. Did Greg Hunt communicate with the Immigration Minister and the ABF to ensure that unvaccinated players didn't jump on a plane? I'd imagine Djokovic's lawyers will be homing in on this issue.

That's where the comments from Mr Rivzi come in. Visas shouldn't have been granted on the strength of TA paperwork without verifying that any exemption met Federal Govt criteria. And if there were ABF officers at Dubai Airport, they should have asked Djokovic on what grounds he had obtained a medical exemption. They should have been alerted to watch out for ATP & WTA players and verify their paperwork.   

On the other hand, would it be fair to say that TA was almost like a representative of all of the players, including Djokovic? It seems players were leaving TA to deal with the government as workers would leave a Union to deal on their behalf. The more that TA is identified with the players, the more the players are tainted by the misbehaviour of TA.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 08, 2022, 11:48:23 am
Djoker can play, all he has to do is complete the Fed's quarantine requirement, and then accept the State's exemption from vaccination to work.

I just do not get why some people always have to try and break the rules, no matter what they do they spend all their efforts looking for a short cut, advantage or cheat relative to Joe Average.

For me it displays a lack of character, a desire to set themselves above others, which is why Djoker gets the White Male Privilege tag!

I do wonder if his claims of having already had COVID are genuine, because if they are then issuing a simple medical certificate and this whole saga evaporates, because that hasn't already happened it suggests he's lied about having COVID! I suppose his association with some rather bogus miracle COVID cures and other health treatments is a big motivation to depart from the truth, there is no better miracle cure than never having it to start off!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 08, 2022, 12:39:41 pm
I'm thinking Tiley seems to do what the Concierge does in a hotel: anything that'll keep the guests happy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 08, 2022, 12:48:41 pm
France's sports minister said the unvaxxed are free to play in the French Open.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 08, 2022, 12:50:41 pm
Australia stationing Border force personnel at any intnl airport to intercept any passenger from flying is simply preposterous.  How do you position those staff ahead of the flight.  How about an unforseen schedule change to the flight.  How would they know if that passenger would be a "no show".  Who would wear those ridiculous economic costs.

Exactly why it is the carrier's responsibility to check the credentials to the degree they can and then the onus falls on the passenger to have the paperwork is all in order when they land here.

I know of no country that doesn't do exactly the same thing and the destination port then approves passage or sends them home.  A casual look at "Border Security" would tell you that.  This is ALL on Djokovic and TA. 



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 08, 2022, 01:32:27 pm
Exactly why it is the carrier's responsibility to check the credentials to the degree they can and then the onus falls on the passenger to have the paperwork is all in order when they land here.

I know of no country that doesn't do exactly the same thing and the destination port then approves passage or sends them home.  A casual look at "Border Security" would tell you that.  This is ALL on Djokovic and TA.
Yes, I agree.

I've travelled a lot, on one flight there was a problem sending the passenger manifest, the flight officer talked the passengers through the full procedure and why there would be a delay landing, because they hadn't been able to transmit the document early enough to get the tick of approval on time to disembark. Air Traffic Control would put the plane in a holding pattern pending a gate being allocated. @capcom will know this better than me but as far as I know it is always the flight officers who send the passenger manifest to the destination sometime after departure and get cleared for landing while in transit. I suppose once the planes left the ground the passenger list isn't going to change! ;D

Sometimes very very rarely, I've had this happen twice in 40 years and hundreds of flights, your plane gets meet with a border control team to collect an individual before the rest of the passengers can disembark/deplane, I gather this was the Djoker scenario.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 08, 2022, 02:32:01 pm
4 people at my work positive. I'm stuffed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 08, 2022, 02:32:20 pm
Yes, I agree.

I've travelled a lot, on one flight there was a problem sending the passenger manifest, the flight officer talked the passengers through the full procedure and why there would be a delay landing, because they hadn't been able to transmit the document early enough to get the tick of approval on time to disembark. Air Traffic Control would put the plane in a holding pattern pending a gate being allocated. @capcom will know this better than me but as far as I know it is always the flight officers who send the passenger manifest to the destination sometime after departure and get cleared for landing while in transit. I suppose once the planes left the ground the passenger list isn't going to change! ;D

Sometimes very very rarely, I've had this happen twice in 40 years and hundreds of flights, your plane gets meet with a border control team to collect an individual before the rest of the passengers can disembark/deplane, I gather this was the Djoker scenario.

OK.

1.  The crew do NOT send a manifest to anyone.  They (the flight attendants) have a copy of it so they know who is sitting where assuming they each have their boarding passes on their person in the event they must return to their original seats in prep for landing.  That is a DCS weight and balance matter and way beyond the scope of this response.

The manifest goes to the arrival port via head office ops control and originally sourced from the departure port DCS manager in charge.  He's the guy responsible for having it signed off by the captain ... and it bears huge personal responsibility.

2.  Border control (using that term VERY loosely for the moment as it's almost always the State Feds) will be used for a PIC (passenger in custody) escort, unruly idiots under arrest for actions during flight, disabled passengers, spraying the cabin prior to disembarkation,  NEVER border control.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 08, 2022, 02:33:30 pm
Who gave Novak a visa?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 08, 2022, 09:06:25 pm
Anybody want a bit of light reading?
https://www.fcfcoa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2022-01/MLG%2035%20of%202022%20-%20Applicant%27s%20submissions.pdf (https://www.fcfcoa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2022-01/MLG%2035%20of%202022%20-%20Applicant%27s%20submissions.pdf)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on January 09, 2022, 09:29:51 am
Cirsten Weldon, an author, “influencer”, QAnon conspiracy theorist and committed COVID-denier and anti-vaxxer has died of COVID.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 09, 2022, 10:08:45 am
Cirsten Weldon, an author, “influencer”, QAnon conspiracy theorist and committed COVID-denier and anti-vaxxer has died of COVID.

We should do a Pagan-esque 'Hall of shame' for all the covid denier/anti-vaxxers who die from covid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 09, 2022, 10:18:24 am
There are a few sites dedicated to exactly that. One site was the subject of an article in Slate and I posted about it a while ago:
Quote
Interesting article. I’m clearly not as angry as many in the US, but then again Covid and its enablers aren’t anywhere near as bad in Australia:

The Unbelievable Grimness of HermanCainAward, the Subreddit That Catalogs Anti-Vaxxer COVID Deaths (https://slate.com/technology/2021/09/hermancainaward-subreddit-antivaxxer-deaths-cataloged.html), Slate.

Quote
It is cruel, a site for heartless and unrepentant schadenfreude. This is a place where deaths are celebrated, and it is not the only one. While endless ink has been spilled on the anger of Trump voters and Fox News viewers and QAnon adherents, there are other angers that haven’t been nearly as well explored. The exhaustion and fury doctors and nurses feel, for example, as they deal yet again with overwhelmed ICUs. Instead of being hailed as heroes, this time around they’re risking their lives to serve while walking through anti-vax protesters and being called murderers or worse by misled family members demanding or indeed suing for sick unvaccinated relatives on ventilators to be dosed with ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine or vitamin C. There is the anger of family members of those without COVID who are dying or sicker than they should be because treatment was delayed or denied to them at dozens of hospitals that had no beds available. There’s the frustration of parents trying to keep their children safe, the constant, destabilizing calculations and adaptations people are forced into when (for instance) the governor of Texas prohibits schools from taking safety measures and then two teachers at a single school die, forcing closures once again. There’s the run-of-the-mill anger of those weary of living under pandemic conditions and demoralized—in the most literal sense—by the selfishness of their compatriots.

Subscriptions to the HermanCainAward subreddit are increasing exponentially, from 2,000 subscribers on July 4 to 5,000 at the beginning of August to more than 100,000 on Sept. 1 to 243,000 Friday to 276,000 today. If that rate is any indication, rage is growing toward anti-vaxxers deliberately prolonging the pandemic out of an anti-social and deadly understanding of their rights. Now, it’s true that not everyone on the subreddit assents to its spiteful premise: One exhausted nurse wrote a long post about how much one of her anti-vax patients suffered, as an attempt at counterbalance. She acknowledged her own compassion fatigue but also urged readers to think harder about how we got to this sorry pass. Plenty of the discussions do orbit around that basic question. But most of the comments are angry. A collection of screenshots generally elicits a common sentiment: The person got their just desserts.
There's another one which deals with the evangelicals who've died after fighting a holy war against Covid warnings.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 09, 2022, 10:35:07 am
It's a lot easier to feel sorry for Renata Voracova than it is Novak Djokovic. She's a 38 year old journeywoman doubles specialist with a lowly ranking of 81 in the world after a career high of 29. Her career prizemoney is just $US1.8m which sounds good until you consider all the travel & accommodation expenses she's paid over the years. Novak has earned $US153m, leaving aside the offcourt earnings he rakes in.

She was waived through on arrival and played a match before being detained by the ABF after the Djokovic saga started. She ended up in the same refugee hotel that Djokovic is staying in and has decided to leave Australia forthwith as she believes she won't have time to properly prepare for her matches now.

She says she was going to get the vaccine but unfortunately caught Covid before she did. Given her lowly status, there's no chance Tennis Australia went out of its way to bend the rules for her, and as she'd be operating on a shoestring budget there's little doubt she needed to rely upon Tennis Australia to organise her paperwork. I hope Tennis Australia reimburses her for her expenditure on this ill-fated trip.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 09, 2022, 11:03:50 am
It's a lot easier to feel sorry for Renata Voracova than it is Novak Djokovic. She's a 38 year old journeywoman doubles specialist with a lowly ranking of 81 in the world after a career high of 29. Her career prizemoney is just $US1.8m which sounds good until you consider all the travel & accommodation expenses she's paid over the years. Novak has earned $US153m, leaving aside the offcourt earnings he rakes in.

She was waived through on arrival and played a match before being detained by the ABF after the Djokovic saga started. She ended up in the same refugee hotel that Djokovic is staying in and has decided to leave Australia forthwith as she believes she won't have time to properly prepare for her matches now.

She says she was going to get the vaccine but unfortunately caught Covid before she did. Given her lowly status, there's no chance Tennis Australia went out of its way to bend the rules for her, and as she'd be operating on a shoestring budget there's little doubt she needed to rely upon Tennis Australia to organise her paperwork. I hope Tennis Australia reimburses her for her expenditure on this ill-fated trip.
Very true, although it's perhaps not quite as bad as you suggest, most of the big tournaments cover basic flights and accommodation, or at least partially reimburse the players with an allowance.

I agree, there is no chance she got special treatment, but then if she had Djoker would have a more legitimate claim so they are probably very lucky they didn't bend the rules for her.

Personally, I've no problem with Djoker playing unvaccinated as long as the tournament obeys suitable isolation conditions and he completes the mandatory quarantine. However, I can see where it becomes unfair to those who have lost their job because they are not vaccinated, some people have no choice as isolation is impossible in many service roles.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 09, 2022, 12:31:01 pm
Voracova must be stabbing her Novak doll with needles right now. In a parallel universe in which Novak isn't a notorious anti-vaxxer, she's preparing for the Aus Open right now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 09, 2022, 01:27:26 pm
No special rules for sportspeople, you get vaxxed or you don't enter Australia.
Liam Jones at least was honest enough to tell the truth about his status. Novax as he is now known should have pulled out of the tournament initially and saved everyone the hassle.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 09, 2022, 02:31:55 pm
No special rules for sportspeople, you get vaxxed or you don't enter Australia.
Liam Jones at least was honest enough to tell the truth about his status. Novax as he is now known should have pulled out of the tournament initially and saved everyone the hassle.

The court of public opinion will be interesting to see should he be granted Federal permission.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 09, 2022, 03:03:01 pm
It'll be interesting watching Scotty from Marketing trying to deflect blame. No doubt, the Govt had the ability to exclude Djokovic and didn't.

Of course, he'll try to blame the Vic Govt but the Vic Govt was entitled to use the same framework as it uses for all other events. Indeed, it would have created a storm if the Vic Govt had set separate rules for the AusOpen as this would have been used as proof of special treatment for elite tennis players (even if they were in some ways harsher). That framework applies to those who are in the country either because they live here or because the Federal Govt has allowed them in.

Quote
Two expert panels – set up by the Victorian Health Department and Tennis Australia – deemed Djokovic eligible for an exemption to play at the Open. However, this exemption applied only to his participation in the Open and held no legal status at the federal border where Commonwealth officials applied their own test to his exemption claims for a visa.
We need them: Tennis Australia pleaded for vaccine exemption for players, (https://www.theage.com.au/sport/tennis/we-need-them-tennis-australia-pleaded-for-vaccine-exemption-for-players-20220108-p59mqu.html) The Age.

It would be amusing if ScoMo tried to argue that Victoria should have fallen in behind the Fed Govt. After all, Victorians haven't forgotten that when we were trying to keep Covid out of Victoria, ScoMo paid little heed to our stricter requirements. He resumed international travel over pleas from Victoria and other states and then said it was Victoria's problem if travellers coming into Sydney immediately hopped onto domestic flights to Melbourne.

But a major problem for ScoMo will be that the Fed Govt never seemed to deal with the Vic Govt over the AusOpen issue. As the above article notes, the Acting Premier, Jacinta Allan, has given TA a please explain, saying TA didn't advise the Vic Govt about Hunt's comments. I'm sure if Hunt had involved the Victorian Govt, we would have heard about it by now. It almost looks like Hunt proceeded on the basis that this was a Fed Govt issue.

It also looks like TA won't accept the blame:
Quote
Tennis Australia’s response to those reports, sent at 10.14pm on Friday, said: “We reject completely that the playing group was knowingly misled. Informing players they could get into the country on a medical exemption was taken from the Smart Traveller website that Greg Hunt directly referred us to.”

The article also notes tennis officials have privately fumed that there was further correspondence after the letters Hunt relies on and the Fed. Govt didn't make its position clear.

It's also hardly surprising Djokovic's proof of prior infection isn't all that great:
Quote
Three sources familiar with Djokovic’s paperwork, speaking anonymously to detail confidential documentation, said evidence to support the player’s exemption was “minimal” and was only supported by one doctor.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 09, 2022, 05:33:58 pm
And BANG!

Quote
Federal government officials told Tennis Australia the Victorian government was responsible for assessing vaccine exemptions, according to leaked correspondence that shows Victoria’s Chief Health Officer Brett Sutton declared people with a prior infection could enter Victoria quarantine-free.

The new letters also show federal officials declined to check exemption applications in advance of travellers boarding planes, which could have avoided the need for Novak Djokovic’s paperwork to be examined for the first time only when he arrived at Melbourne Airport.
Leaked letters: Federal authorities advised vax exemptions were Victoria’s responsibility, (https://www.theage.com.au/sport/tennis/leaked-letters-federal-authorities-advised-vax-exemptions-were-victoria-s-responsibility-20220109-p59mw9.html) The Age.

It looks like ScoMo's pathological drive to avoid taking responsibility for anything is about to deliver Djokovic a win in Court. WTF? How the hell did his government refuse to scrutinise visa applications which were clearly its responsibility?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 09, 2022, 06:02:08 pm
Unless I've missed something it seems to me News Ltd media is using the same set of letters between TA and the Feds to explain vastly different versions of events, it's not feasible for all the News Ltd conspiracies to be correct. I don't get how they can publish such contradictory claims without being held to account, to me it's deliberately misrepresenting the facts to drum up a controversy!

God knows what they publish overseas!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 09, 2022, 06:15:06 pm
Can someone tell me anything Scomo has actually done as PM?

As far as i can tell he is very good on pointing the finger.....and going on holidays....and letting states do whatever they want.

What does he do exactly?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 09, 2022, 06:19:02 pm
What does he do exactly?
How do you think he got the Scotty from marketing nickname, he's an ideas man!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Lrbw4-vkFM
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on January 09, 2022, 06:47:26 pm
Can someone tell me anything Scomo has actually done as PM?

As far as i can tell he is very good on pointing the finger.....and going on holidays....and letting states do whatever they want.

What does he do exactly?

As far as I can ascertain, K, he's just a large sack of defecating meat... that can also walk and grin.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 09, 2022, 09:11:42 pm
Are you guys saying Dictator Dan couldn't stop Novak from playing the Aus Open whether he got in the country or not?
He banned residents here from seeing their families for months.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 09, 2022, 09:24:21 pm
This thread has become comedy gold.

Lots of calling a Balkan national someone of white male privilege.   Let me tell you, the WASPS who this description applies to do not see Novak as one of them.

White Anglo Saxon Protestant.

Not orthodox Christian from the Balkans.  He grew up in a war torn Serbia which broke off from the former Yugoslavia which literally translates to the land of southern slavs,  with slavs coming from the word for slaves.

He does have white skin though.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 09, 2022, 09:58:26 pm
This thread has become comedy gold.

Lots of calling a Balkan national someone of white male privilege.   Let me tell you, the WASPS who this description applies to do not see Novak as one of them.

White Anglo Saxon Protestant.

Not orthodox Christian from the Balkans.  He grew up in a war torn Serbia which broke off from the former Yugoslavia which literally translates to the land of southern slavs,  with slavs coming from the word for slaves.

He does have white skin though.



My mate went there about 5 or 6 years ago and some buildings still haven't been repaired from the NATO bombings.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 09, 2022, 11:15:36 pm
Are you guys saying Dictator Dan couldn't stop Novak from playing the Aus Open whether he got in the country or not?
He banned residents here from seeing their families for months.
So, you want him to be a dictator? Interesting ...

If he were to avoid being a dictator, that would probably involve applying Victorian rules regarding medical exemptions rules without fear or favour. Maybe we need the Liberals to take over so they can start making a few Captain's calls again ;) 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 09, 2022, 11:43:10 pm
Or maybe The Federal Govt could have just enforced its own rules given it has the exclusive power to regulate entry to Australia. Just think how easily it could have done so. All it had to do was require anyone relying on a state-based medical exemption to state in the application for a visa on what ground or grounds the medical exemption was granted. In Djokovic's case, the answer would have been prior infection. Then the Immigration Dept would have refused the application for a visa. Gee, that's not hard is it?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 10, 2022, 07:03:33 am
My mate went there about 5 or 6 years ago and some buildings still haven't been repaired from the NATO bombings.

Not surprising.  Novak was born in 1987, and his nation was at war for no less than 7 years in the 1990's.  I believe there was further conflict in the 2000's too.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 10, 2022, 07:13:57 am
I'm blaming all of them for this fiasco.

Scomo
Dan
Tiley

Clearly they all knew he was coming.

Novak whether you like him or not followed the rules.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 10, 2022, 07:34:42 am
Not surprising.  Novak was born in 1987, and his nation was at war for no less than 7 years in the 1990's.  I believe there was further conflict in the 2000's too.
I believe his family moved from Montenegro to Monte Carlo when he was a teenager!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 10, 2022, 10:02:10 am
The Fed Govt's submissions in response reserve the ABF's right to detain Djokovic again with  view to deporting him even if the Court decides the current case in Djokovic's favour due to procedural error. That's a well-beaten path in refugee cases.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 10, 2022, 11:50:40 am
Confining myself solely to the way the Judge is engaging with Djokovic's lawyers (and not my own assessments of the parties' cases), I'd place a big bet on Djokovic winning his case. Of course, it isn't even half-time in the case as the Govt's lawyers have yet to speak. But all of the questioning from the Judge suggests he has a very dim view of the behaviour of the ABF/Govt. That's not the usual scenario. Usually a Judge puts each party under pressure by probing their weak points. In this case, he's emphasising Djokovic's strong points and almost taking them further.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 10, 2022, 12:10:18 pm
What more could this man have done?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 10, 2022, 12:55:47 pm
I believe his family moved from Montenegro to Monte Carlo when he was a teenager!
via Germany at ages 12.

How was his childhood given you seem to know so much about it?

Would we define someone growing up living in ear shot of war, gun shots, bombings as privileged? 

He is one of the lucky ones from his nation, but the Balkans have been invaded and reinvaded longer than Australia was a federated nation, and was at war, as recently as, less than 30 years ago.

The assertion of white male privilege applies to him like it would someone who fled east Timor and settled in Australia.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 10, 2022, 01:17:26 pm
Like a reformed smoker.

It's not about where you came from, it's about how you now choose to act around others! ;)

You'd think someone who has allegedly seen and experienced such suffering and hardship would be far far better at reading the room. Instead he doesn't just seem tone deaf, he acts with indignance towards those who have been bitten by the pandemic! :o

It's OK for workers with legitimate reasons for being unvaccinated to lose their job so that Djoker can compete safely in an unvaccinated state, they get nothing from him but a virtual spit in the face, as do the hundreds of unpaid volunteers, many wrapped head to toe in PPE, who donate time and effort to enable his earning million$ and million$!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 10, 2022, 01:23:23 pm
Yes, it was terrible that the Serbians refused to stop their Ethnic Cleansing in Kosovo and that resulted in NATO bombing them. Whether or not NATO committed war crimes by bombing the Serbians, I'll leave to the the historians and experts in international law. But Serbian leaders were convicted of war crimes, so playing the victim card on Serbia's behalf is a bit surprising.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 10, 2022, 04:30:23 pm
Yes, it was terrible that the Serbians refused to stop their Ethnic Cleansing in Kosovo and that resulted in NATO bombing them. Whether or not NATO committed war crimes by bombing the Serbians, I'll leave to the the historians and experts in international law. But Serbian leaders were convicted of war crimes, so playing the victim card on Serbia's behalf is a bit surprising.
I think this is a rather seperate argument.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/22/sport/novak-djokovic-profile-us-open-spt-intl/index.html

Quote
It's March 24, 1999, and the air strikes on the Serbian capital mark the beginning of what would be a 78-day campaign by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) to try and bring to an end atrocities committed by Yugoslavia's then-president Slobodan Milosevic's troops against ethnic Albanians in the province of Kosovo.
While his father, Srdjan, helped his mother, Dijana, who temporarily lost consciousness after hitting her head against the radiator following the first explosion, Djokovic searched for his brothers, eight-year-old Marko and four-year-old Djordje, in their pitch dark apartment.

"At 11, I was the big brother," the top-ranked Serb wrote in "Serve to win," his 2013 autobiography. "I'd been holding myself responsible for their safety ever since NATO forces started bombing my hometown of Belgrade."

In the first chapter of his autobiography, titled "Backhands and Bomb Shelters," Djokovic vividly recalls the night that changed his life forever.
After Dijana regained consciousness, the Djokovic family entered the unlit streets of Belgrade and tried to make their way to the nearby apartment building of an aunt's family, which had a bomb shelter.
While his parents ran down the streets, holding his younger brothers, Djokovic suddenly found himself all alone after he fell flat on his face in the street.
"And then it happened," Djokovic wrote. "Rising up from over the roof of our building came the steel gray triangle of an F-117 bomber."
"What happened next would never leave me," he said. "Even today, loud sounds fill me with fear."
The bomber dropped two laser-guided missiles right over his head, which struck a hospital building a few streets away.
"I remember the sandy, dusty, metallic shell in the air, and how the whole city seemed to glow like a ripe tangerine," Djokovic said in his book.
The streets now covered in light, Djokovic spotted his parents and brothers in the far distance, and chased after them until they all reached the concrete shelter safely.
There were about 20 families hiding in the shelter.
"There were children crying. I didn't stop shivering for the rest of the night," Djokovic said in his book.
In a 2015 interview with CNN television, Djokovic recalled the bombing campaign, during which he and his family would spend each night in the shelter from 8 p.m., and only had electricity for a few hours each day.
"Those times are certainly something that I don't wish for anybody to experience," he said. "Two-and-a-half months, every single day and night, bombs coming into the city. We saw planes flying over our heads, and literally rockets and bombs landing half a mile away."

You don't have to like him, you don't have to empathise with the Serbs.  You don't have to like them either (in my experience, most anglo saxons, hate people from the balkans anyway)  but to label someone who went through that, white male and privliged??

Nup.  Sorry, thats crap.

If you didnt see war in your nation when you were 12, you cant comment here and call him privileged.


Like a reformed smoker.

It's not about where you came from, it's about how you now choose to act around others! ;)

You'd think someone who has allegedly seen and experienced such suffering and hardship would be far far better at reading the room. Instead he doesn't just seem tone deaf, he acts with indignance towards those who have been bitten by the pandemic! :o

It's OK for workers with legitimate reasons for being unvaccinated to lose their job so that Djoker can compete safely in an unvaccinated state, they get nothing from him but a virtual spit in the face, as do the hundreds of unpaid volunteers, many wrapped head to toe in PPE, who donate time and effort to enable his earning million$ and million$!

I actually dont think anyone should have lost their job over being vaccinated, particularly with our current outcomes and landscape.  I can state that I know of vaccinated people hospitalised with Covid, and I can also state I know of unvaccinated people who have experienced COVID, and have not needed any health or hospital help.

Its all a sliding scale, and the one size fits all approach is problematic.  Professional athletes are risking their lives and livelihood, and as it turns out make no difference to anyone elses risk profile.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 10, 2022, 04:41:47 pm
No matter what happened in their past, nobody gets a free hit at being an ar5ehole to the rest of humanity!

White male privilege isn't a birth right, you have to earn it by your actions! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 10, 2022, 05:25:08 pm
Novak wins!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 10, 2022, 07:48:25 pm
Rumours he is about to be arrested and kicked out of the country.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 10, 2022, 09:53:05 pm
You don't have to like him, you don't have to empathise with the Serbs.  You don't have to like them either (in my experience, most anglo saxons, hate people from the balkans anyway)  but to label someone who went through that, white male and privliged??
...
If you didnt see war in your nation when you were 12, you cant comment here and call him privileged.

I'm guessing you're well aware I never used the label white male privilege. Whatever p!ssing contest you and LP are having over that, leave me out of it.

If you look back at my posts, you'll see I had a go at the privilege rich tennis superstars exercise. I cited 2 examples: Djokovic & Serena Williams. You'll note there's no through line there when it comes to being white males. 

As for the notion being a child witness to bombings in your youth gives you lifelong immunity from being regarded as privileged, my counter-example is Queen Elizabeth II who was in Buckingham Palace when it was bombed by the Germans and lived through the Blitz well aware of the toll it was taking on Londoners. She was about 14. Would it be outrageous to consider her privileged? (Edit: Queen Elizabeth, Queen Elizabeth II's mother, was the one who was present; the then princess and her sister were sent to the country).

No one's suggesting Novak was privileged when he was a child, but he sure is now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 11, 2022, 07:16:50 am
I'm guessing you're well aware I never used the label white male privilege. Whatever p!ssing contest you and LP are having over that, leave me out of it.

If you look back at my posts, you'll see I had a go at the privilege rich tennis superstars exercise. I cited 2 examples: Djokovic & Serena Williams. You'll note there's no through line there when it comes to being white males. 

As for the notion being a child witness to bombings in your youth gives you lifelong immunity from being regarded as privileged, my counter-example is Queen Elizabeth II who was in Buckingham Palace when it was bombed by the Germans and lived through the Blitz well aware of the toll it was taking on Londoners. She was about 14. Would it be outrageous to consider her privileged? (Edit: Queen Elizabeth, Queen Elizabeth II's mother, was the one who was present; the then princess and her sister were sent to the country).

No one's suggesting Novak was privileged when he was a child, but he sure is now.

The whole point of being privileged is to have been born into your success, safety and a position of privilege.

Quote
White privilege is a social phenomenon intertwined with race and racism.[1] The American Anthropological Association states that, "The 'racial' worldview was invented to assign some groups to perpetual low status, while others were permitted access to privilege, power, and wealth."[19] Although the definition of "white privilege" has been somewhat fluid, it is generally agreed to refer to the implicit or systemic advantages that people who are deemed white have relative to people who are not deemed white. Not having to experience suspicion and other adverse reactions to one's race is also often termed a type of white privilege.[2]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege

This term doesn't apply to people from the Balkans.  His treatment isn't one born of privilege.  Have a look at how he has always been viewed irrespective of what you think of him, and at this point ill throw Adam goodes at you and how there is a point of racism to his treatment.

Novak and people who hail from the balkan peninsula in general do not have a warm and fuzzy experience in the western world and have always been viewed as second class citizens to Anglo Saxons.

He may have been granted white male privilege now that he is at the top of Tennis but he has not been given that as a result of being white or male its because he has money and that would apply unilaterally to anyone who went from rags to riches who would automatically be held in that esteem because our society values wealth.

Im calling out what is obviously BS personal bias.  I dont see the relevance in quiting a monarch.  When Novak was dodging bombs and living without electricity most privleged 12 year olds were watching power rangers and playing with ninja turtles. 

Kilian Mpabbe and Paul Pogba are they privileged?  Do they have white male privilege even though they are black?

Interesting question. 


Finally, because I'm replying to this thread, you chimed in with something I replied to you, and im cognisant that you have not bandied about that term, but irrespective you seem to be continuing your argument.  This has become something more akin to validation of LP's point which makes you an associate by default.  Someone who boos Goodes not because he was acting like a flog but have joined the voices of racist boos and are similarly racist.

I have not stated that Novak is not a flog here.  He behaves in a manner that makes it hard to like him at times, but in this circumstance this opinion has driven public response prior to any real wrong doing on his behalf.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 11, 2022, 07:52:39 am
The whole point of being privileged is to have been born into your success, safety and a position of privilege.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege

This term doesn't apply to people from the Balkans. 
I can see why you are getting stressed, you've chosen to obey a very limited scope of the term, when in a more modern broader scope it's got nothing to do with who your parents are, and everything to do with how you behave, maybe even for people who aren't so white! ;)

It applies to anyone, even Balkans who behave a certain way putting their own importance and self-interests ahead of and above others or the rest of society. I'm not sure why you seem to think the Balkans would have some special exemption, the same rules that apply to everyone else apply to Djoker, and yet ....................... it seems not, it seems he is special!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on January 11, 2022, 08:33:52 am
And this applies equally in Australia.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/omicron-makes-bidens-vaccine-mandates-obsolete-covid-healthcare-osha-evidence-supreme-court-11641760009?mod=mhp
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 11, 2022, 09:08:50 am
Thryleon, I don't agree with your attempt to restrict the definition of privilege. I'll leave you to hash it out with LP and the makers of dictionaries.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 11, 2022, 10:41:42 am
The latest science indicates vaccinated are approximately 8x less likely to suffer long term effects from all COVID variants, this is over and above the already greatly reduced risk of getting a SARS-CoV-2 infection in the first place. Vaccination reduces the risk of infection for all SARS-CoV-2 variants.

Breakthrough infections occur at approximately 1/10th the rate of infections in unvaccinated, similar benefits are shown in hospital admissions and acute/intensive care.

Sufferers of SARS-CoV-2 breakthrough infections also appear to be 4x less likely to experience severe long term symptoms.

Preliminary findings also indicate are that any unvaccinated sufferers of long COVID will experience reduced severity of symptoms if they proceed to be vaccinated once eligible.

Vaccination, win, win, win and win! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 11, 2022, 10:59:23 am
Greg Baum over at The Rage (https://www.theage.com.au/sport/tennis/novak-a-secret-vax-fan-you-re-djoking-20220110-p59n91.html) has a nice perspective of all this Djoker stuff;
Quote
If you don’t believe Djokovic misused an escape clause this year, have a close read of the ATAGI protocols that were co-opted to his case. The relevant clause allows an exemption for someone with “PCR-confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection, where vaccination can be deferred until six months after the infection”.

That’s deferred, not refused point-blank. Deferred, not laughed in the face of. As noted by former ATAGI chair Allen Cheng, it is meant to apply to people in Australia who when safe can have the vaccine. It is not meant to provide a PPE-lined avenue into the country for those who have no intention of being inoculated, now, later or ever.

Think about it for a moment: the way to get around Australia’s COVID-19 public health protection protocols is to get COVID-19. Just head down to your local dance club, take a few deep breaths, pop into your nearest PCR shop on the way home and voila!

Does anybody truly believe that Djokovic is claiming exemption now on the basis that he will dutifully have a jab in six months when the scales fall from his eyes? That’s Novak Djokovic, globally known virulent vaccination opponent – sceptic won’t do, because his mind is not open on this. Djokovic, blithe COVID-19 fellow-traveller? Djokovic, family-anointed leader of the free world? Jab-free, that is.
A behaviour, only available to the lawyered up wealthy it seems, quite a privilege!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 11, 2022, 11:57:09 am
He didn't win because he's rich, he was able fight because he's rich.

He won because he didn't do anything wrong.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 11, 2022, 11:59:57 am
The latest science indicates vaccinated are approximately 8x less likely to suffer long term effects from all COVID variants, this is over and above the already greatly reduced risk of getting a SARS-CoV-2 infection in the first place. Vaccination reduces the risk of infection for all SARS-CoV-2 variants.

Breakthrough infections occur at approximately 1/10th the rate of infections in unvaccinated, similar benefits are shown in hospital admissions and acute/intensive care.

Sufferers of SARS-CoV-2 breakthrough infections also appear to be 4x less likely to experience severe long term symptoms.

Preliminary findings also indicate are that any unvaccinated sufferers of long COVID will experience reduced severity of symptoms if they proceed to be vaccinated once eligible.

Vaccination, win, win, win and win! ;D

That's all that you need to know about getting vaccinated.

The additional lies about only the unvaccinated spreading it hasn't aged well at all. Not expecting any apologies though.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 11, 2022, 12:10:16 pm
He didn't win because he's rich, he was able fight because he's rich.

He won because he didn't do anything wrong.
He won because the Fed Govt stuffed up. If it had wanted to keep unvaccinated anti-vaxxers out, it should have been like shooting fish in a barrel. But the Govt put a lid on the barrel and put it inside a bank vault, making the job of shooting the fish so much harder.

The article LP referenced talked about whether he should have been able to make bad faith use of a medical exemption under the Victorian system. If the Fed Govt had wanted to enforce a tougher approach by rejecting those who obtained the medical exemption on the ground of prior infection, it could have done so easily. Making that clear on the material it published and having Immigration Officials weeding out such applications for visas before granting them would have been a good start.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 11, 2022, 12:12:06 pm
That's all that you need to know about getting vaccinated.

The additional lies about only the unvaccinated spreading it hasn't aged well at all. Not expecting any apologies though.
Not sure what you assert, if you are more likely to get it, and you are more likely to get it when you are unvaccinated, then you are more likely to spread it, it's pretty basic.

Vaccinated people have reduced chance of getting it, if they do get it a breakthrough infection it will most likely be less severe, and once they have got it they are less likely to spread it.

Vaccinated people who get a breakthrough infection are likely to have the infection for a much shorter period of time, if they become infectious they are likely to stay infectious for a shorter period of time, they will also most likely have less long term side effects.

Getting an infection and being infectious are two different things, which are often not distinguished by much of the media coverage.

Nobody credible ever said vaccines deliver 100% efficacy, that is just a rock that the vaccine naysayers like to throw around!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 11, 2022, 12:13:01 pm
The additional lies about only the unvaccinated spreading it hasn't aged well at all. Not expecting any apologies though.
Was that ever stated as a black and white proposition? Or was it the more muted version that the unvaccinated were more likely to spread it than the vaccinated? If the latter, that was most likely true and it may well be true also of Omicron.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 11, 2022, 12:14:43 pm
Not sure what you assert, if you are more likely to get it, and you are more likely to get it when you are unvaccinated, then you are more likely to spread it, it's pretty basic.

Vaccinated people have reduced chance of getting it, if they do get it a breakthrough infection it will most likely be less severe, and once they have got it they are less likely to spread it.

Vaccinated people who get a breakthrough infection are likely to have the infection for a much shorter period of time, if they become infectious they are likely to stay infectious for a shorter period of time, they will also have less long term side effects.

Nobody credible ever said vaccines deliver 100% efficacy, that is just a rock that the vaccine naysayers like to throw!

Lies.
Covid has ripped through my workplace. Everyone is wearing masks, socially distanced and vaccinated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 11, 2022, 12:18:35 pm
Lies.
Covid has ripped through my workplace. Everyone is wearing masks, socially distanced and vaccinated.
It only takes one person, it may not have been an employee even, and the probability is that it's someone who either gained no benefit from being vaccinated or was effectively unvaccinated. Someone who has experienced diminished efficacy.

It's not an "either or" / "yes or no" scenario, it's about chance, risk and probability.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 11, 2022, 12:19:24 pm
He won because the Fed Govt stuffed up. If it had wanted to keep unvaccinated anti-vaxxers out, it should have been like shooting fish in a barrel. But the Govt put a lid on the barrel and put it inside a bank vault, making the job of shooting the fish so much harder.

The article LP referenced talked about whether he should have been able to make bad faith use of a medical exemption under the Victorian system. If the Fed Govt had wanted to enforce a tougher approach by rejecting those who obtained the medical exemption on the ground of prior infection, it could have done so easily. Making that clear on the material it published and having Immigration Officials weeding out such applications for visas before granting them would have been a good start.

I agree with all of that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 11, 2022, 12:25:48 pm
He didn't win because he's rich, he was able fight because he's rich.
He won because he is elite rich, a family of vast individual and combined wealth that enable Djokers contrary behaviour.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 11, 2022, 12:27:40 pm

He won because he is elite rich, a family of vast individual and combined wealth that enable Djokers contrary behaviour.

He won because he had a medical exemption despite scomo saying he didn't.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 11, 2022, 12:46:43 pm
Is it politically wise for the Immigration Minister, Alex Hawke, to emphasise that he has the power to cancel Djokovic's Visa in his discretion? The only advantage to the Govt would be that it might send a message to Djokovic and his family that it's best not to gloat to the media about winning the court case.

By raising the issue, however, it makes it clear Djokovic's continued presence in Australia is due to a Govt decision, not a court decision. Unless Hawke follows through and cancels the Visa, Scotty from Marketing completely loses any advantage he might have had in running a Tampa redux campaign.  He could still try to run the 'We will decide who comes to this country' line, but if Alex Hawke doesn't act then that would probably be met with scorn. If the Visa is cancelled, it will probably just focus attention on how inept the handling of this saga has been. Either way, the opposition will have a field day.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 11, 2022, 12:53:20 pm
He won because he had a medical exemption despite scomo saying he didn't.
He did not and does not have an exemption from doing quarantine, you are melding together two different issues, it's not one-in-all-in.

I don't care about his vaccine exemption, if he had COVID he can't be vaccinated, but he shouldn't get special elite considerations over and above those afforded to you, me or anybody else!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 11, 2022, 01:06:38 pm
He did not and does not have an exemption from doing quarantine, you are melding together two different issues, it's not one-in-all-in.

I don't care about his vaccine exemption, if he had COVID he can't be vaccinated, but he shouldn't get special elite considerations over and above those afforded to you, me or anybody else!

I agree he shouldn't have an exemption but he does.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 11, 2022, 01:48:43 pm
Whatever the outcome of this sorry event, this will NEVER happen again.  Tennis Australia MUST follow only Federal rules.  Still want him flown home
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 11, 2022, 02:39:04 pm
He won because he had a medical exemption despite scomo saying he didn't.


nah, he won because he's got white male privilege after having become rich.

Irrespective of the fact he isn't considered properly white by anglos, wasn't born into riches, and is privleged only because he's an elite athlete like the rest of them and is treated the same.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 11, 2022, 02:47:49 pm
Irrespective of the fact he isn't considered properly white by anglos

Strange thing to say
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on January 11, 2022, 03:12:38 pm
Strange thing to say

It is a little.
I'm just wondering where it's coming from...
I noticed a Greek flag amongst the protestors, there may have been more than one.
Do Greeks in general feel some type of affinity with the Serbs, Thry.
It's not something I was aware of and is there a background to that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 11, 2022, 03:21:46 pm
Strange thing to say
Yes, at least somewhat out of context.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on January 11, 2022, 03:24:44 pm
nah, he won because he's got white male privilege after having become rich.

Irrespective of the fact he isn't considered properly white by anglos, wasn't born into riches, and is privleged only because he's an elite athlete like the rest of them and is treated the same.

Would that be all "anglos"? Sounds like a pretty wide-ranging assumption about a very large group of individuals.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 11, 2022, 04:33:34 pm
Would that be all "anglos"? Sounds like a pretty wide-ranging assumption about a very large group of individuals.
 
 (https://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/6215137278?profile=original)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 11, 2022, 04:40:32 pm
The person with the biggest egg on his face is going to be the judge if the Feds choose to pursue Djoker over the anomalies on his arrival documents.

Somewhat ironic, wealthy, talented, but it seems he may be too stupid to remember social media posts about the destinations he had visited in the preceding fortnight! A forgotten foggy memory side effect of COVID, but COVID is harmless isn't it Mr Djoker?

Excuse Me, ....... Excuse Me!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 11, 2022, 05:40:37 pm
Nothing but a witch hunt.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 12, 2022, 10:20:27 am
It is a little.
I'm just wondering where it's coming from...
I noticed a Greek flag amongst the protestors, there may have been more than one.
Do Greeks in general feel some type of affinity with the Serbs, Thry.
It's not something I was aware of and is there a background to that.

Kind of.

Some of it dates back to Orthodox Christianity, Geo Politics, and a break away from the Ottoman empire.  Some of it is steeped in Byzantine empire, and is similar to the Uno Fazza Uno Razza with the Italians.  It all dates back to Roman times, and is quite irrelevant these days, but in the last couple of hundred years, the break up of the ottoman empire has contributed to that affinity.  There is even talk of Greeks having taught the Cyrillic alphabet to the people from that region, and when you look at Cyrillic and Greek there is a sharing of script there that looks familiar in some places (possibly like the skandinavians.


Strange thing to say


This is my experience of living in Australia.

I am white and have white privilege to minority groups, true dark skinned people, the LBGTQI community and females (i am male).

I am not truly one of the club like some of the others. 

I have been told to f%ck off back to where I came from as recently as 2017, from someone who is "more australian" and am leaving a place where people who have names with 2 syllables in them continually end up in leadership roles, whilst any more, and you get tokenism at best, with respect to leadership roles.

Would that be all "anglos"? Sounds like a pretty wide-ranging assumption about a very large group of individuals.

Not all people are guilty of the same crimes, but yet, when the boos were going for Adam Goodes, they did all end up racists didnt they?

Just applying the same argument.  If the shoe fits, you can wear it or not.  Your choice, but I find it interesting to see that people don't like being lumped into one group like this, but are happy to do it to others. 







Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 12, 2022, 10:57:52 am
You have to be very careful trusting what you read in mainstream media.

I read today the case numbers and deaths, about 35K cases and 21 deaths, News Ltd had stated for Victoria. Then I go to The Rage, it it states 35K cases for NSW and 21 deaths. Something seems wrong, both sites had screen grabs of Tweets to support the report, it is like the name of the state was changed and the figures remained the same!

Then I go to the official sites, the 35K cases and 21 deaths is NSW, and 40K cases and 13 deaths in Vic as of 10am today, it may change of course.

The media seems to be getting it's figures from a 3rd party aggregator site, and that site seems to have munged the figures. It is lazy reporting, but I sometimes wonder if it is deliberate use of a questionable source for sensationalism! But that is hard to imagine as the numbers are universally bad, so making bad even more bad is pretty pointless!

btw., This will get fixed up on both sites during the day, the numbers will change, but for many many readers the damage is already done!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on January 12, 2022, 11:07:05 am
Kind of.

Some of it dates back to Orthodox Christianity, Geo Politics, and a break away from the Ottoman empire.  Some of it is steeped in Byzantine empire, and is similar to the Uno Fazza Uno Razza with the Italians.  It all dates back to Roman times, and is quite irrelevant these days, but in the last couple of hundred years, the break up of the ottoman empire has contributed to that affinity.  There is even talk of Greeks having taught the Cyrillic alphabet to the people from that region, and when you look at Cyrillic and Greek there is a sharing of script there that looks familiar in some places (possibly like the skandinavians.

 

This is my experience of living in Australia.

I am white and have white privilege to minority groups, true dark skinned people, the LBGTQI community and females (i am male).

I am not truly one of the club like some of the others. 

I have been told to f%ck off back to where I came from as recently as 2017, from someone who is "more australian" and am leaving a place where people who have names with 2 syllables in them continually end up in leadership roles, whilst any more, and you get tokenism at best, with respect to leadership roles.

Not all people are guilty of the same crimes, but yet, when the boos were going for Adam Goodes, they did all end up racists didnt they?

Just applying the same argument.  If the shoe fits, you can wear it or not.  Your choice, but I find it interesting to see that people don't like being lumped into one group like this, but are happy to do it to others.

Can you please tell me when you think I did this?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 12, 2022, 11:26:02 am
This would be over if they just got rid of the vaccine mandate which is useless now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 12, 2022, 11:28:07 am
This would be over if they just got rid of the vaccine mandate which is useless now.
The vaccine mandate helps reduce/prevent severe COVID cases, and that is saving hundreds or nationally thousands of lives, and stopping our hospitals being over-run!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 12, 2022, 11:29:28 am
The vaccine mandate helps reduce/prevent severe COVID cases, and that is saving hundreds or nationally thousands of lives, and stopping our hospitals being over-run!

Helped.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 12, 2022, 11:33:32 am
This will be looked back on as a shameful time in Australia's history treating the unvaxxed as deplorables.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 12, 2022, 11:37:23 am
Its tricky.  The word seems to be coming out that of the people hospitalised, most are hospitalised with not by covid.

This poses a logistical issue for a few reasons, but largely its risk to other patients with similar co morbidites and liability.

How you treat a covid positive patient for cardiac issues, where other cardiac patients cannot catch covid as it might hurt them, is a real problem.

Beyond that, we will see in time.  The mandates have caused a few issues, but like the boy who cried wolf, when the future strikes, and a vaccine does actually work, you will have bred much greater mis trust in a lot of people, given the current state of play. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 12, 2022, 11:48:48 am
Helped.
Still is.

It's a shifting demographic, Omicron affects a different spread of ages to Delta or earlier strains.

They'll mandate the boosters next, because it's obvious beyond doubt that vaccinations reduce the case load in hospitals. The economic cost benefit must be 1000x compared to just 3 or 4 days in hospital, let alone those who spends days or weeks in intensive care!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 12, 2022, 11:52:19 am
This will be looked back on as a shameful time in Australia's history treating the unvaxxed as deplorables.
Not sure what to make of your reference to deplorables. If you're referring to Hillary's comment, she was spot on. It may have been politically unwise to say what she said but Trump's embrace of white supremacy has proved her point many times over.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 12, 2022, 11:55:26 am
3 positives at work have had a booster. The vaccine doesn't stop you getting it or spreading it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 12, 2022, 11:56:02 am
Its tricky.  The word seems to be coming out that of the people hospitalised, most are hospitalised with not by covid.

This poses a logistical issue for a few reasons, but largely its risk to other patients with similar co morbidites and liability.
Canonical issues aside, infections from COVID are a very real issue and yet much of the mainstream gets bogged down in the debate of a category.

Nobody can deny the cost of a jab versus the cost of hospitalisation, yet some in the mainstream still argue against vaccinations even though the vast majority of COVID hospitalisations are people who are otherwise unvaccinated without a valid reason for being so!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 12, 2022, 11:56:38 am
3 positives at work have had a booster. The vaccine doesn't stop you getting it or spreading it.
Vaccine reduces your chance of getting it and spreading it, and it looks like it may also alleviate symptoms in long COVID sufferers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 12, 2022, 11:57:13 am
So you're saying on an anecdotal basis that the booster has a 0% efficacy? Maybe there needs to more data before you can go there.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 12, 2022, 12:05:45 pm
I'm certainly not opposed to the idea of changing policies to address the different problems posed by Omicron. But the notion that we should just ditch everything and let it rip totally because current strategies don't act as an impenetrable barrier to Omicron seems to be a bit extreme. If we don't use vaccines, what should we do? Do we instead start to shut down pubs and restaurants or does that impinge on the ability of people to move around freely and make their own decisions? Do we mandate masks and if so do we treat anti-maskers as deplorables? What's the alternative being proposed? It's easy to whinge about what exists but harder to come up with solutions which will not be lambasted by some as an affront to their freedoms.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 12, 2022, 12:08:00 pm
We have let it rip.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 12, 2022, 12:34:33 pm
So the logic is to let it rip completely? Either we shut down completely or let it rip completely? Can't there be an intermediate setting?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 12, 2022, 12:51:29 pm
This is my experience of living in Australia.

I am white and have white privilege to minority groups, true dark skinned people, the LBGTQI community and females (i am male).

I am not truly one of the club like some of the others.


I get it Thry, but that's a personal perception is it not, rather than a mainstream view?


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 12, 2022, 02:39:00 pm
Not sure what to make of Djoker's latest confessions, his little faux pas might not make much difference to him or other big names, they can forego the $.

Many of his tennis peers cannot afford to lose the money that comes from being declared positive and losing the opportunity to play or travel to tournaments.

I suspect that declaration is going to lose Djoker some good will and trust amongst his peers.

It wouldn't be surprising to find the WTA introduces compulsory testing, they had basically defended not doing so by claiming the players are making the sacrifices and doing the right thing! Not all it seems! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 12, 2022, 03:37:51 pm
This is my experience of living in Australia.

I am white and have white privilege to minority groups, true dark skinned people, the LBGTQI community and females (i am male).

I am not truly one of the club like some of the others.


I get it Thry, but that's a personal perception is it not, rather than a mainstream view?




I suppose it is.

The big question is, is it correct?

Again, like all issues, its very difficult to paint one thing with the same brush.  In isolation, lots of the covid strategy makes no sense.  In combination with other factors, even the most ridiculous has a logical and lateral, risk aversion to it, even if the risk is quite small.

Its all very much to do with the experience not solely born of one persons life, but a systemic thing, and if ever you think to yourself, that he might be talking based on just an anecdotal view, have a think about how the white privilege gets bandied about by others.  Am I riding on coat tails?  Am I potentially correct?  Or, is it possible, that I have faced some descriminatory action that has led me to this particular junction?

The answer is a combination.  Not all people are racist.  Not all people are prejudiced.  Not all people face discrimination.  The ones that do, often stay quiet about it because unless you rise above it, you give it power over you and you give it the sort of power thats intended when people actually discriminate against you.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on January 12, 2022, 05:18:37 pm
We have let it rip.

MBB, old son. If only it were that simple. From one simple viewpoint... about 8% of Aussies aged over 12 are unvaccinated. These people are at increased risk of needing hospitalisation upon infection. Now if the hospitals continue to be inundated with Covid cases -- beyond their resources -- then other surgeries and medical needs are shunted down the queue, increasing the risk of serious illness, even death from other health care issues - including mental health. There are other factors as well.

Our healthcare system is deeply under resourced as it is, without Covid. Moderating the flow of Covid infected folks (especially unvaccinated) is the only humane solution available. As Wing Man MAV suggested, either/or / extreme thinking will create too many unnecessary problems.

Hopefully, our less than intelligent authorities will realise that our health care system needs strong improvement. The smarter Party will realise this and make it an election pillar.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on January 12, 2022, 05:23:25 pm
3 positives at work have had a booster. The vaccine doesn't stop you getting it or spreading it.
Vaccination does reduce transmissibility and most importantly, severity of symptoms.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on January 12, 2022, 05:54:24 pm
Kind of.

Some of it dates back to Orthodox Christianity, Geo Politics, and a break away from the Ottoman empire.  Some of it is steeped in Byzantine empire, and is similar to the Uno Fazza Uno Razza with the Italians.  It all dates back to Roman times, and is quite irrelevant these days, but in the last couple of hundred years, the break up of the ottoman empire has contributed to that affinity.  There is even talk of Greeks having taught the Cyrillic alphabet to the people from that region, and when you look at Cyrillic and Greek there is a sharing of script there that looks familiar in some places (possibly like the skandinavians.

 

This is my experience of living in Australia.

I am white and have white privilege to minority groups, true dark skinned people, the LBGTQI community and females (i am male).

I am not truly one of the club like some of the others. 

I have been told to f%ck off back to where I came from as recently as 2017, from someone who is "more australian" and am leaving a place where people who have names with 2 syllables in them continually end up in leadership roles, whilst any more, and you get tokenism at best, with respect to leadership roles.

Not all people are guilty of the same crimes, but yet, when the boos were going for Adam Goodes, they did all end up racists didnt they?

Just applying the same argument.  If the shoe fits, you can wear it or not.  Your choice, but I find it interesting to see that people don't like being lumped into one group like this, but are happy to do it to others. 


I think I get where you're coming from, 3 Leos.

I would contend that most 'Anglo Aussies' are decent, every day folks.

Although I am 'very' Anglo (Scandinavian and English blood... along with Irish and Scottish) I was brought up in a home with a Landscape Architect/Gardener father who employed many different ethnic background folks (tradies/labourers). In fact my father would often comment that he leaned toward employing Greeks, Italians and Slavic folks, as, in his view, these people were harder and more reliable workers for his business. My parents never demonstrated racially prejudiced comments... perhaps the popular belief that prejudice is taught rather than inherent in our nature is in fact true.

I'm sorry you had to endure hurtful, racist slurs. Tells you of the ignorance of the persecutor rather than Aussies as a whole. There will likely always be folks who are unintelligent and abusive in respect to their views of anyone 'different.' I can assure you that to this day, I have to be careful who I share my PTSD stuff with... yep, some of the breathtakingly stupid comments I have heard are so wrong. Plenty of horribly judgemental barbs delivered by mental health issues ignorant people. However, this is powerfully counter balanced by the compassion and empathy from most Aussies. We're a young country... but already way ahead of many others (in terms of accepting difference) in regards to our fairness and willingness to 'give a go' to just about anyone.

As for Djokovic, I don't think his treatment has anything to do with ethnicity... he's a public figure and some will just hate on him because they don't like his attitude or hair cut! But if he is found to have manipulated the system, that 'fair go' of Aussies will evaporate pretty quickly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 12, 2022, 06:03:06 pm
Hopefully, our less than intelligent authorities will realise that our health care system needs strong improvement. The smarter Party will realise this and make it an election pillar.

Maybe @Baggers ... but that takes years to ramp up and a helluva lot more staff, all unpredictable 3 years back. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 12, 2022, 07:01:42 pm
Vaccination does reduce transmissibility and most importantly, severity of symptoms.

Your second part is correct.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 12, 2022, 07:03:58 pm
MBB, old son. If only it were that simple. From one simple viewpoint... about 8% of Aussies aged over 12 are unvaccinated. These people are at increased risk of needing hospitalisation upon infection. Now if the hospitals continue to be inundated with Covid cases -- beyond their resources -- then other surgeries and medical needs are shunted down the queue, increasing the risk of serious illness, even death from other health care issues - including mental health. There are other factors as well.

Our healthcare system is deeply under resourced as it is, without Covid. Moderating the flow of Covid infected folks (especially unvaccinated) is the only humane solution available. As Wing Man MAV suggested, either/or / extreme thinking will create too many unnecessary problems.

Hopefully, our less than intelligent authorities will realise that our health care system needs strong improvement. The smarter Party will realise this and make it an election pillar.

I didn't say let it rip, I said they have let it rip.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 12, 2022, 07:07:54 pm
Also whenever I say the vaccine doesn't stop you getting it there is no need to preach to me about deaths and hospitalisations. I have stated numerous times that I'm pro vaccine and that they save lives. Our own lives.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 12, 2022, 10:27:24 pm
Vaccination does reduce transmissibility and most importantly, severity of symptoms.
This whole statement is 100% accurate!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 13, 2022, 07:15:52 am
Where's your data? 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 13, 2022, 07:57:53 am
Where's your data?
The best data is coming out of Europe, in fact some of the European states that were previously skeptics are now lauding vaccination. Even the Danes who officially tried hard to be sceptical about vaccination could only find small percentage changes from the efficacy baselines for both Delta and Omicron. If the vaccines did not work against Omicron the percentage changes would have to be hundreds of percent, as you have to keep in mind the Danes are writing about percentage changes to a figure of about 10 - 15% percent.
Quote
Unvaccinated prospective secondary cases had similar attack rates in households with the Omicron and Delta VOCs at 29% and 28%, respectively. However, fully vaccinated individuals had SAR of 32% in households with the Omicron and 19% in households with the Delta VOC. Meanwhile, Omicron rendered a SAR of 25% in booster-vaccinated individuals, whereas Delta correlated to a SAR of only 11% in this cohort.

Seven days after the primary episode, which was considered a positive test result in this study, the cumulative chance of probable secondary cases rose from 33-41% to roughly 87-89%. The chances of secondary infection were higher in cases where the primary case, which was the first individual within a household to test positive, was with the Delta VOC rather than with the Omicron VOC.
So effectively, the same efficacy figures that apply to Delta effectively apply to Omicron.

Listening to the BBC overnight, the COVID report suggests new data coming out will confirm the vaccines efficacy for Omicron is still above 75%, that viral load of Omicron is reduce 1000x in vaccinated people who have had the booster, and that breakthrough infections are 2x more likely to come from an unvaccinated carrier than a vaccinated carrier. (Even though on average people are surrounded by 10x more vaccinated people than unvaccinated, you are still 2x more likely to be infected by the unvaccinated carrier, the risk is not just a function of head count it is also a function of viral load and mutation rates(Each variant VOC has hundreds or thousands of subtypes, the more viral load the more subtypes exist.)) This is interesting because if correct the UK study will confirms modelling studies conducted earlier by ATAGI, that vaccination still has high efficacy against severe disease, and that is exactly how the vast majority of vaccines work.
Quote
A mathematical modelling study has examined the relationship between neutralising antibody titres and vaccine effectiveness estimated in epidemiological studies. The investigators predicted that six months after primary immunisation with an mRNA vaccine, efficacy for Omicron is estimated to have waned to around 40% against symptomatic disease, and 80% against severe disease (36.7% [95% CI: 7.7-73], 70.9% [95% CI: 32.9-91.5] and 81.1% [95% CI: 42.1-96] for the AstraZeneca, Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, respectively). A booster dose with an mRNA vaccine has the potential to increase efficacy for Omicron to 86.2% (95% CI: 72.6-94%) against symptomatic infection and 98.2% (95% CI: 90.2-99.7%) against severe infection.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 13, 2022, 08:02:34 am
Omicron data is starting to pile out of research centres now, over the next 3 to 4 weeks you will be flooded with it!

It typically takes about 3 months for new COVID papers to be drafted, submitted and peer-reviewed.

We must not forget even this is a massive achievement, in days gone by you would replace the word months with years!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 13, 2022, 08:48:36 am
There is a point that I find difficult to understand.

Had we not vaccinated, would the pandemic look any different?

Its really difficult to quantify (and I don't think anyone really wants to find out because that cat is out of the bag once its out and there is no changing it). 

Thing is, we should see a disproportionate number of cases, and excess deaths in regions where vaccination rates are low.

I.e.  There is a region of India, called Utter Pradesh.  They have registered few cases, and I would wager, have been able to vaccinate fewer rather than more in a population of over 200 million people.  Their numbers dont look ridiculous, and Id wager their access to health care slim.

For data's sake.

Their population: 

Population as of 2021 according to this page: https://www.indiaonlinepages.com/population/uttar-pradesh-population.html

They have counted:  35.9 million cases, and 484k covid deaths.

They have vaccinated, 9.37b total doses, so have 3.92 billion fully vaccinated.  50% of their population.

You can spin these numbers how you like, and possibly support a variety of outcomes.  One thing I can state, is that they likely have population not counted, that similarly cant test positive, when you deal with such a logistical nightmare (look whats happening to our ability to count cases reliably in a city with 6 million people at a relatively small number of cases per day).

Irrespective of how you count this, should there not be a remarkably high number of excess deaths in those sorts of populations?  Vaccination rate is fairly low, so you would estimate the ability to protect in such a large population would be tricky, and their ability to distance, mask wear, do all the hand washing would be negligible too.

It's the sort of thing that never really rates a mention, and I understand why, its of no great comparison to us here in the western world, with big Australian backyards and not so much poverty. 



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 13, 2022, 09:06:59 am
Patient zero at my work came in last Tuesday sick as a dog and was blaming their sore throat on a big new years.
That night their adult daughter tested positive. She did a rapid test which confirmed she was positive. She was in contact with 5 co workers that day and all were positive by Saturday. Now almost everyone who were in contact with them are becoming positive. Everyone is vaccinated. One guy brought the virus home to his wife and 3 kids, all vaxxed and all are positive. By what measure is the vaccine stopping transmition?

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 13, 2022, 09:25:31 am
By what measure is the vaccine stopping transmition?
Efficacy is not just a measure of infection prevention, in fact historically most high efficacy vaccines do not stop infection, efficacy is a measure of how a vaccine prevents severe / acute disease as well as how they reduce the risk of infection and transmission.

For example you can have a high efficacy vaccine if it stops most or all severe disease but does not stop infection / transmission at all.

You won't find any credible scientific or health source that claims the Sars-CoV-2 vaccines stop infection, that line of debate only ever comes from the anti-vax movement or others spinning selective reports for political purposes.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 13, 2022, 09:46:46 am
Telling the truth is not spinning.

If I take the virus home to my unvaccinated 5 and 6 year old boys me being vaccinated doesn't protect them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 13, 2022, 09:57:56 am
Telling the truth is not spinning.

If I take the virus home to my unvaccinated 5 and 6 year old boys me being vaccinated doesn't protect them.
It reduces their risk of being infected but it doesn't reduce the chance of them developing symptoms if they are infected.

If they are able to be vaccinated the evidence suggest they will be strongly protected against severe disease, but only you can make up your mind on that. For children and youth Omicron has changed the game, because it doesn't seem to have the same age bias that previous strains had.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 13, 2022, 10:02:51 am
I must be writing in another language. I give up.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 13, 2022, 10:06:37 am
I must be writing in another language. I give up.
 Your chance of giving them COVID is reduced, it's pretty obvious.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 13, 2022, 10:12:59 am
Your chance of giving them COVID is reduced, it's pretty obvious.

Not in the real world.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 13, 2022, 10:56:49 am
Not trying to stir the pot here, MBB, but the cluster you've described suggests that your workplace might not be well suited to limiting infections. Of course, I know nothing about how it's set out so that's just speculative. And unfortunately bad luck can result in a highly improbable series of events happening: it's just the flip side of the more fortunate case of someone winning Tattslotto.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 13, 2022, 12:09:10 pm
Not in the real world.
The world obeys the math, it always obeys the math, it's human perceptions that are wrong.

Extending what happens or is experienced personally to what happens globally is the same false logic that tells Trump supporters that the China virus is a cold!

But I'll stick with Jimmy Carr's interpretation of that experience when he asks his audience;
Quote
“Do you think we overreacted to COVID-19?” After some audience roar back with a resounding ‘YES,’ he adds: “Yeah, a lot of the survivors think so.”
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 13, 2022, 12:13:37 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQj6IgegGYo
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 13, 2022, 12:34:30 pm
Also whenever I say the vaccine doesn't stop you getting it there is no need to preach to me about deaths and hospitalisations. I have stated numerous times that I'm pro vaccine and that they save lives. Our own lives.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 13, 2022, 12:58:04 pm
Whether someone is pro or anti vaccine doesn't make a difference to debating any points that get posted, the response is in context to claims and assertions that have implicit meanings or foundations, so the response can discuss them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 13, 2022, 01:01:27 pm
Things appear to be getting worse for Djoker, it's hard to get a read on what will happen, I think he'll still play in the open.

Allegations surfacing now that it appears he has also broken Spanish law, you just know the media is going to Nadal to comment!

On a side issue, it looks like Rebecca Maddern sucked in the planet by taking the ratings tricks she had learned off the likes of McGuire and Newman on the Footy Show, and applying them to the Ch.7 News broadcast! btw., Not that McGuire or Newman invented it, but they did take it to a new level with lots of fake conflict.

fwiw; Years ago I saw this same trick applied first hand by Scotty Palmer at The Truth, pumping up a conflict in print, a conflict in which someone had threatened to knock his block off, I think it was Crackers Keenan, just so everybody tuned into the weekend World of Sport segment!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 13, 2022, 01:12:46 pm
What's the point of NSW mandating antigen test results, who is going to verify any of it, it will just artificially inflate the figures so that the death rate looks better for the Conservatives pushing the open slather!

And you just know it's bogus reporting that will deliver a $750 extra holiday week off for the some nefarious types, that ship has already sailed, and these people will shamelessly drain the kitty so that the money runs out for people who really need it!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 13, 2022, 01:15:43 pm
Whether someone is pro or anti vaccine doesn't make a difference to debating any points that get posted, the response is in context to claims and assertions that have implicit meanings or foundations, so the response can discuss them.


You're not even debating my point.

You posted some crap about the world obeying math and posted a Jimmy Carr video. Who was that for?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 13, 2022, 01:16:41 pm
I must be writing in another language. I give up.

Nah I understand what you are stating, but apparently its as follows:

If you are vaccinated, your likelihood of transmission changes.  It may only halve that probability over a shortened duration, but its still reduced.

The math doesn't lie, but the argument is still the same on both sides.  The vaccine doesn't stop transmission (it is a limiting factor) of which might not be so limiting, because  positive people with fewer symptoms are more likely to "get on with it" which is an entirely different argument altogether.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 13, 2022, 01:59:03 pm
You're not even debating my point.

You posted some crap about the world obeying math and posted a Jimmy Carr video. Who was that for?
I see, math is crap.

There are other people on the forum besides yourself, not every post like the Jimmy Carr video is in response to something you've stated, it's just a funny video on a COVID related subject!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 13, 2022, 02:30:08 pm
I see, math is crap.

I didn't write that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 13, 2022, 02:42:22 pm
I didn't write that.
There is no escaping what is implied in the written word, the reader is free to infer the meaning of all that is written.

Some authors even do so deliberately, playing in the margins of ambiguity.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 13, 2022, 03:06:45 pm
Move over Ivermectin, the new kid on the block is Cannabis! Looks like some compounds in Cannabis help to bind the virus, but unfortunately they degrade at high temperatures so a blunt or bong probably won't do the trick:  Could cannabis prevent COVID? To the authors of a new study, it sure looks like it, (https://www.salon.com/2022/01/12/could-cannabis-prevent-covid-to-the-authors-of-a-new-study-it-sure-looks-like-it/) Salon.

Meanwhile, Tucker Carlson is trying to push Viagra as the new Ivermectin. I'd try both although together they probably tend to cancel out.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 13, 2022, 03:25:28 pm
Cannabis and Viagra there's a combination, it might not cure COVID but who the feck cares!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 13, 2022, 04:11:24 pm
Not really useful information, but it fits this thread.

Some interesting argy bargy in research chat circles overnight, with some suggesting there is now clear evidence Omicron is not universally infective, it seems that certain blood types / ethnicities are vastly under-represented in the ICU.

It is seen by a significant segment of the research community as "politically unfashionable" to even talk about, they vehemently oppose the idea, I suppose that is the friendly description of the differences.

Proponents of the hypothesis think discussing it is critical, because it could lead to the fastest gold standard cure/treatment!

You can imagine how divisive it could become if someone was labelled / identified as having special anti-COVID genes, it would be an automatic class distinction, so it's understandable that some widely oppose the concept, but they might not be able to prove it's wrong.

It could be a wtf moment for some people, but is it real or is it fake?

I'll pop into the sunglass shops on the way home and buy some polaroids!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 13, 2022, 04:40:15 pm
You're not even debating my point.

With all due respect MBB, your point has been debated, many times over.
I'm not sure if you miss the replies, don't take them in, or are just stirring the pot, but it has been answered.

I provided an answer previously in relation to you asking about the numbers of infections of vaccinated people are higher than anti-vaxers.
It went something along the lines of this....

Yes, more people who are vaccinated are testing positive to Covid compared to unvaccinated.
However, More people die every year from horses and cows than die from lions. Does that mean that lions are less dangerous? Or does that mean the sheer weight of numbers of horses and cows 'skew' the data.
Its all relative.


Now, same can be said with vaccinated vs unvaxed and the likelyhood of it being passed on.
You are more likely to get it from a vaccinated person than an unvaccinated person, partially because there are a whole lot less unvaccinated people that you actually can come in contact with.

Firstly, the new strain is making the vaccine less effective (not useless, just LESS effective). So even if it only stops 10% (or whatever % Omicron is) of people from getting it (compared to 70% or whatever the other strains were), it is definitely still worth getting it.

Secondly, the other benefit is what you pass on (as a vaxxed person) is slightly less severe than had you not been vaxxed as well. Which makes it worth it as well.

Finally, its less than ideal, but there is an effect that you cannot ignore.....well you seem to be trying, but you shouldn't ignore it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 13, 2022, 04:41:41 pm
I'll pop into the sunglass shops on the way home and buy some polaroids!
Polaroids?

Ray Bans?? They Live?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on January 13, 2022, 05:02:12 pm
With all due respect MBB, your point has been debated, many times over.
I'm not sure if you miss the replies, don't take them in, or are just stirring the pot, but it has been answered.

I provided an answer previously in relation to you asking about the numbers of infections of vaccinated people are higher than anti-vaxers.
It went something along the lines of this....

Yes, more people who are vaccinated are testing positive to Covid compared to unvaccinated.
However, More people die every year from horses and cows than die from lions. Does that mean that lions are less dangerous? Or does that mean the sheer weight of numbers of horses and cows 'skew' the data.
Its all relative.


Now, same can be said with vaccinated vs unvaxed and the likelyhood of it being passed on.
You are more likely to get it from a vaccinated person than an unvaccinated person, partially because there are a whole lot less unvaccinated people that you actually can come in contact with.

Firstly, the new strain is making the vaccine less effective (not useless, just LESS effective). So even if it only stops 10% (or whatever % Omicron is) of people from getting it (compared to 70% or whatever the other strains were), it is definitely still worth getting it.

Secondly, the other benefit is what you pass on (as a vaxxed person) is slightly less severe than had you not been vaxxed as well. Which makes it worth it as well.

Finally, its less than ideal, but there is an effect that you cannot ignore.....well you seem to be trying, but you shouldn't ignore it.

Exactamundo.

Perhaps if we could see the % of fully vaxxed folks hospitalised vs unvaxxed hospitalised with C19 (Delta or Omicron) it would reveal a rather telling story (I've already heard it is heavily skewed to unvaxxed... to be hospitalised). I don't know where to find such figures ...cue the Spotted One! ;)  ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 13, 2022, 05:04:30 pm
If you didn't like Victoria's lockdowns, at least they weren't lightning lockdowns as practised in China. Here's a story about what I assume is a "leftover girl" (i.e. a woman over 26 who parents fear will never find a husband) whose parents organised 10 blind dates for her. One of her dates invited her over to show off what he thought were his brilliant culinary skills but during the meal the Government locked down his locality. She ended up in a 4-day-long 1st date with him, made all the more awkward given she described him as "mute as a wooden mannequin"!
Woman Stuck At Blind Date’s House After Swift COVID Lockdown In China, (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/woman-blind-date-china-covid-lockdown_n_61df2f38e4b09724bb95e673) HuffPost.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 13, 2022, 05:09:21 pm
Exactamundo.

Perhaps if we could see the % of fully vaxxed folks hospitalised vs unvaxxed hospitalised with C19 (Delta or Omicron) it would reveal a rather telling story (I've already heard it is heavily skewed to unvaxxed... to be hospitalised). I don't know where to find such figures ...cue the Spotted One! ;)  ;D
Also whenever I say the vaccine doesn't stop you getting it there is no need to preach to me about deaths and hospitalisations. I have stated numerous times that I'm pro vaccine and that they save lives. Our own lives.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 13, 2022, 05:37:16 pm
I tried to work out what I'd do in Alex Hawke's position and I came up with a great idea. Following the script written by Barnaby Joyce, he could come up with a piece of theatre which would transcend the Johnny Depp/Amber Heard hostage video. Djokovic could be given an ultimatum: either you take the jab in front of the world's media or your Visa will be cancelled and you'll be deported. That would be such a fitting end to the saga :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 13, 2022, 05:41:47 pm
I tried to work out what I'd do in Alex Hawke's position and I came up with a great idea. Following the script written by Barnaby Joyce, he could come up with a piece of theatre which would transcend the Johnny Depp/Amber Heard hostage video. Djokovic could be given an ultimatum: either you take the jab in front of the world's media or your Visa will be cancelled and you'll be deported. That would be such a fitting end to the saga :)

Do you think he got covid and went out exposing people or he faked getting covid and is now caught up in the lie?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 13, 2022, 05:43:07 pm
@MBB...
You reply to a reply, but ignore the actual reply you say you have never gotten.

You going to take issue with any of my response? Ignore it? Ask the same question in a week or 2?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 13, 2022, 06:08:22 pm
Do you think he got covid and went out exposing people or he faked getting covid and is now caught up in the lie?
I reckon the latter but of course my gut instinct isn't evidence. If I'm right, though, it would just highlight how arrogant he is that he couldn't be bothered making sure his actions were consistent with the lie.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 13, 2022, 06:25:46 pm
@MBB...
You reply to a reply, but ignore the actual reply you say you have never gotten.

You going to take issue with any of my response? Ignore it? Ask the same question in a week or 2?

@MBB...
You reply to a reply, but ignore the actual reply you say you have never gotten.

You going to take issue with any of my response? Ignore it? Ask the same question in a week or 2?

Sorry, I was going to reply but kept getting interrupted by my kids.

I thought your second last paragraph was true until you debunked that. Liam Jones thread pages 5.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 13, 2022, 06:32:52 pm
Bernard Tomic positive.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 13, 2022, 06:41:59 pm
Sorry, I was going to reply but kept getting interrupted by my kids.

I thought your second last paragraph was true until you debunked that. Liam Jones thread pages 5.


That may have changed with Omicron though.

Each strain is slightly different.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 13, 2022, 07:09:00 pm
That's the only positive thing I've seen written about Tomic for years.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 13, 2022, 07:43:33 pm
Life can be a great leveler for some.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 14, 2022, 12:04:53 pm
It's now been a week since Djokovic was detained and rather than a decision we have indecision. Not a great omen for Djokovic as it suggests his claim of being infected on 16 December is being put under the microscope.

There is no justification for the delay otherwise. Alex Hawke clearly has a discretion to cancel visas and he would be able to call on his department and top barristers to make sure any decision he makes is bullet-proof. That preparatory work could have started as soon as he was detained last Friday and didn't need to wait for the Federal Court case. It's a personal discretion vested in the Minister for Immigration, so there's no need for him to wait for the Cabinet to make a decision. In fact, if he allowed Cabinet or the Prime Minister to dictate the decision, he'd be making a reviewable error. Of course, only the naive would think he would pay no heed to politics and the advice of his cabinet colleagues, but delaying the decision would spark conspiracy theories that he took into account improper considerations.

To make sure he is seen to take into account all relevant matters, he would have put Djokovic's lawyers in the hot seat. He would have called on them to make submissions to him regarding whether he should exercise his discretion to cancel the visa. This is pretty convenient because he can then state in shorthand that he's taken into account all of the matters Mr Djokovic has raised (or he can list those matters in his reasons for decision). That can be done pretty quickly, and if Djokovic's lawyers have failed to make speedy submissions, I'm sure Hawke would have blamed them for the delay.

So I reckon it's London to a brick that the delay is a result of a full-fledged investigation by the Federal Police and the ABF into the claim of prior infection. If it could be shown his medical exemption was obtained by fraud or Djokovic hid other matters that would have resulted in the cancellation of the visa, that would be a knock out blow for Djokovic. And it would result in a fairly large delay as natural justice would require the Minister to give Djokovic's lawyers a chance to respond to any proof of wrongdoing that might be uncovered. It would be the Holy Grail for Hawke: if Djokovic is caught red-handed, even his own supporters would find it hard to complain if he were deported. Public opinion in Australia would fall pretty much completely behind his expulsion.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 14, 2022, 12:22:57 pm
Hawke is taking FAR too long. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 14, 2022, 01:01:53 pm
Hawke is taking FAR too long.
Is it an accident?

I've heard behind the scenes it's a political nightmare. So it may be that they are choosing the moment such that they are seen to do the right thing, but Djoker still gets to play. A ban that is then swiftly overturned in court, too late to prevent Djoker playing before the tournament starts/concludes.

I've also heard accusations that Conservative Federal and NSW State governments are colluding to get the next Aust Open into NSW, basically doing their best to throw a spanner in the works for this years event! I'm afraid even as a remote rumour it feels like something Scotty from Marketing and Parrotsay would be right into!

As an aside there are also some F1 rumors going around that NSW has sought an assurance from F1 that if this years race fails to go ahead without full crowds the next contract moves to NSW.

All this really does is paint Australia as a clown destination for such events, and it opens the door for foreign competitors, you wouldn't be surprised to find we loose both!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 14, 2022, 04:46:17 pm
As an aside there are also some F1 rumors going around that NSW has sought an assurance from F1 that if this years race fails to go ahead with full crowds the next contract moves to NSW.

All this really does is paint Australia as a clown destination for such events, and it opens the door for foreign competitors, you wouldn't be surprised to find we loose both!
NSW have been trying to steal the F1's for about 10 years now.
They have just redone the Albert Park Circuit and made it more of a track that encourages overtaking.

No way NSW could get a suitable track up and running in time that would be a better spectacle with better racing that what exists now.
As for the 'benchmark' of full crowds. No such thing. Its basically majority gen admin. Grand stand seating might make up 20% of the overall crowds and as a result, its impossible to predict what a 'full crowd' would even look like.

I can almost guarantee that crowds will be down, simply because a lot of people fly internationally to come to Melbourne for the first race of the year.
Now...
1. It is not the first race of the year, thus less appealing.
2. Less people are allowed in from overseas, and less are wanting to go anywhere from oversees.
3. Locals are a bit gun shy in going out and about at present, preferring to watch from the safety of their isolated living rooms....and i think that will be a trend for every race this year.

FWIW, i think F1 recently extended the Melbourne contract anyway. Its there until 2025.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 14, 2022, 04:50:07 pm
As for the 'benchmark' of full crowds. No such thing. Its basically majority gen admin. Grand stand seating might make up 20% of the overall crowds and as a result, its impossible to predict what a 'full crowd' would even look like.
 
Sorry I fixed up that line, I did mean to write "without" full crowds.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 14, 2022, 04:52:08 pm
FWIW, i think F1 recently extended the Melbourne contract anyway. Its there until 2025.
Yes, the rumor is specific to the next contract, so in fact NSW would have 3 years to get ready if they can trigger the decision after the 2022 race.

I presume that NSW want it decided now, because if this shizen pandemic gets sorted 2023 would be a bumper event! The F1 glitterati will be among the first to resume international travel!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 14, 2022, 05:06:21 pm
Yes, the rumor is specific to the next contract, so in fact NSW would have 3 years to get ready if they can trigger the decision after the 2022 race.

I presume that NSW want it decided now, because if this shizen pandemic gets sorted 2023 would be a bumper event! The F1 glitterati will be among the first to resume international travel!
Its all good in theory, but NSW simply can't draw a crowd like sports made Melbourne can.
F1 is more than happy with the event in Melbourne (last 2 years being a hiccup, sure, but thats worldwide)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 14, 2022, 06:01:22 pm
Immigration Minister Alex Hawke cancels Novak Djokovic's visa, tennis player to be deported, (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-14/novak-djokovic-visa-cancellation-decision-immigration-minister/100748386) abc.net.au
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 14, 2022, 06:22:03 pm
Australia doesn't deserve a grand slam.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 14, 2022, 06:28:31 pm
Immigration Minister Alex Hawke cancels Novak Djokovic's visa, tennis player to be deported, (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-14/novak-djokovic-visa-cancellation-decision-immigration-minister/100748386) abc.net.au
(https://static.dw.com/image/50769182_401.jpg)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 14, 2022, 06:30:45 pm
So Djokovic was more of a threat to us than Scomo's Hillsong orgies?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 14, 2022, 06:33:53 pm
Pack your bags sunshine.  Good riddance. :P  :P  :P
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 14, 2022, 06:48:54 pm
So Djokovic was more of a threat to us than Scomo's Hillsong orgies?
The Liberals are hellbent on exempting Christian organisations from discrimination and other laws, so we shouldn't be surprised. Hopefully, the Coalition won't be able to pass their religious freedom to discriminate laws.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 14, 2022, 09:11:18 pm
Djokovic is getting an urgent hearing at 9.45 pm tonight. A assume it'll be the sake judge as last time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 14, 2022, 09:43:06 pm
FFS, it looks like I was wrong. The reasons for decision apparently say the Minister assumes Djokovic did all that he was required to do, had suffered Covid and legitimately received a vaccine exemption, that he poses little risk to anyone in Australia, and is of good character. It looks like he exercised it on the ground that Djokovic's continued presence in Australia would excite anti-vaxxer sentiment in Australia. Holy hell.

It looks like Djokovic's counsel was right to wonder whether the decision was left to 6pm on Friday night in the hope it would make it hard for Djokovic to challenge the decision.

I should say I haven't read the reasons and I'm just going off what Djokovic's counsel, Mark Woods QC, said to the Judge in tonight's hearing.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 14, 2022, 10:14:02 pm
I can't believe how inept the Govt has been. Fair dinkum, it's so easy for the Govt to win this sort of case. It's 60 points up in the final quarter. Yet it looks like it'strying to lose it. If betting on the result was allowed, the bookies would be screaming blue murder right now. Real keystone cops stuff. Maybe the reasons aren't as bad as Mark Woods QC makes out ... 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on January 15, 2022, 12:56:48 am
Getting a little off topic but one of the classic examples of white male privilege is the Duke of York.  Yes, he's a protestant but there is hardly a drop of Anglo-Saxon blood in his body.  He comes from good German and Greek stock.  His partner in crime, Jeffrey Epstein, was Jewish but still used his white male privilege to feed his sick desires.  And then there's Ghislaine Maxwell, obviously female and the daughter of an orthodox Jew, but still guilty of exploiting her position of privilege at the expense of innocents; female but generally from relatively privileged backgrounds.

I'm not sure how relevant the concept of white male privilege is, rich folk do OK at the expense of poor folk regardless of ethnicity and religion.  That brings me to the concept of WASP, a particularly American term used to describe the American political elite, generally of British descent.  However, in recent times, it is applied to all Americans of Northern and North Western European heritage.  The concepts of WASP and white male privilege (today it's generally white privilege without the emphasis on male, and I think that has marginally more relevance) aren't one and the same. It's also worth noting that "white" in the context of white privilege is defined as people with European ancestral origins.

As with most attempts to classify/categorise folk on the basis of their ethnicity and/or religion, WASP is a flawed concept.  My heritage is mainly British with a dash of Irish and Scandinavian but I don't have any Anglo-Saxon ancestry.  I don't believe in an imaginary being but my ancestors were equally protestant and catholic - more fool them!  My British ancestors were yeoman farmers, so relatively privileged, but those who came to Australia were strictly working class labourers, until my generation.

Novax is privileged because he's worth a mint and he comes from a society where males are valued more than females.  It's interesting that Serbian PM Ana Brnabić is more conciliatory in her comments about the Australian Government's actions than that lunatic Vučić (still, I wouldn't mind seeing Vučić duke it out with Scotty from marketing à la Frankie Goes to Hollywood's Two Tribes).  Ana clearly sees that Novax is an arrogant prick with a dangerous, anti-social attitude.

Moving a little further off topic, in 1989 I attended the World Archaeological Congress on Archaeological Ethics and the Treatment of the Dead in South Dakota.  The Indigenous representatives caucused and came up with a resolution that they presented to the congress.  All was going well until the two Sami representatives objected because they hadn't been invited to the caucus.  They tore strips off the other Indigenous representatives for excluding them on the basis of their skin colour.  As a descendant of Indigenous Britons, I could probably have mounted an argument for inclusion too.  However, being five generations removed from the home of my ancestors must reduce the veracity of any such claim.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 15, 2022, 08:03:18 am
The Liberals are hellbent on exempting Christian organisations from discrimination and other laws, so we shouldn't be surprised. Hopefully, the Coalition won't be able to pass their religious freedom to discriminate laws.

My cousin's child lasted 1 year at a Christian school. They called him to pick up his son because he was wearing an inappropriate costume for book week.  Apparently if you dress up as Harry Potter you are into witchcraft
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 15, 2022, 09:36:08 am
That's hardcore, MBB! My son went to a Catholic primary school and every 2nd boy went to Book Week as Harry Potter. Easiest costume ever: a plastic wand and plastic round spectacle frames from the 2 dollar shop and bingo. The Priest at the school was hardcore too and was probably seething but the principal generally kept him under control.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on January 15, 2022, 05:48:44 pm
It's a difficult task to find a RAT test.
You line up for hours and then wait a week for results
and then.....

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/almost-100000-victorians-told-they-will-not-get-their-pcr-test-results/ar-AASNvYS?li=AAgfYrC

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on January 15, 2022, 07:13:57 pm
It's a difficult task to find a RAT test.
You line up for hours and then wait a week for results
and then.....

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/almost-100000-victorians-told-they-will-not-get-their-pcr-test-results/ar-AASNvYS?li=AAgfYrC



Folk here on the Bellarine Peninsula are reporting that they're getting their PCR test results within 24 hours.  The pressure on the system must have eased.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 15, 2022, 07:45:29 pm
Folk here on the Bellarine Peninsula are reporting that they're getting their PCR test results within 24 hours.  The pressure on the system must have eased.

Mother in law got tested on Monday, still waiting.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on January 15, 2022, 08:13:45 pm
Folk here on the Bellarine Peninsula are reporting that they're getting their PCR test results within 24 hours.  The pressure on the system must have eased.
The introduction of RAT testing should have had an effect on reducing waiting times for PCRs but...
People are fed up with waiting for hours in a queue....knowing that there is no guarantee of a quick...or as has been seen 'no' result
RAT test are offered as an alternative....but you can't get them without great difficulty
I suspect some folks have reached the point where they feel a bit abandoned and left to their own devices.
It becomes dangerous when caught in this type of limbo because rather than getting tested when they should, people are waiting until their symptoms become more entrenched, or obvious.
I think a lot of these folks are still conscious of the need to stay home and as such are self isolating but they're putting themselves at risk of accessing help much later than they should.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 16, 2022, 08:23:37 am
Mum caught covid last Saturday with the rest of the people they went out for dinner with.

The ones that got tested at the deakin uni testing site didn't get their results or have had to wait 6 days.

My sisters in laws got tested in Coburg and got a positive result 14 hours later (they were at dinner with mum).

Everyone had the same symptoms.  My sister never registered a positive result, and waiting 6 days for her pcr result (negative) but when I spoke to her she had severe covid symptoms (more like glandular fever or tonsillitis for 48 hours) which were identical to mums symptoms (MUM tested positive on a RAT). 

This is what it is, but keep these experiences in mind when people start looking to places like India for statistics on covid cases, vaccines, positives and etc. 


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 16, 2022, 11:44:19 am
Back to the Djokovic case for a moment.

Taking his name out of the equation, the whole episode is a bit concerning.

A person applies for a visa, and is granted entry.

Upon arrival there is an issue with paperwork vis type et al, and the visa is cancelled.

The case goes to a judicial tribunal, and a judgement call is made weighing up all the details and ruling in favour of the person who was deemed to have done what was required and the visa reinstated.

A politician has elected to cancel the visa because its in public interest to do so.


Forgetting Djokovic for a moment we have an example of another tennis player who was allowed in on same travel visa and only detained upon his arrival which speaks for the fact that the regulations aren't clear and the visa decision a bit of a misnomer.

I dont really like the sound of this.  The majority of the justification seems to sit in territory of we have been locked down and he should be too.  Mranwhile when Anastasia went to Tokyo last year we barely could visit people in their own homes, and when scomo went to the g8 summit in the UK, I believe we might have been in lockdown.

I have issues with all of this, and the genre public service response.  Some hyper aggressive adherence to rules and regulations that are a bit dehumanised in all of.  I know of staff who have medical exemptions from getting the vaccine based on clear side effects (Bells Pawlsy) which has resulted in her not being allowed to work in her job in elective surgery any more, and required to work from home.

I know of another mum who has been terminated in lieu of early maternity leave because thats the rule.  Get vaccinated or don't.  She was a high risk pregnancy and there was no ifs buts or maybes.  She even said I won't return until fully vaccinated and no early mat leave was allowed.

There are a lot of elements of we can enforce the rules in a much better fashion which doesn't result in the ostracising of people.  Not all work for everyone and some people like Novak and Liam Jones have to suffer the consequences of not getting vaccinated, but there is an element of mismanagement going on here that is being swept by.  I dont like that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 16, 2022, 04:05:04 pm
Not all work for everyone and some people like Novak and Liam Jones have to suffer the consequences of not getting vaccinated, but there is an element of mismanagement going on here that is being swept by.  I dont like that.
My only problem with all this is that lawyers profit in the margins and actively look for them, but those marginal advantages are not available to Joe Average.

Today, we effectively have a full bench sitting in judgement of a potential tennis match on their day off!

For me the Pub Test is would Joe Average get the same advantages and treatment? I think the answer in all cases is clearly not, and your work associates are a prime example, I'm not sure what can be done about that it's a matter of privilege, some have it and some don't!

My understanding is there has already been more than one person, a minor player and a coach deported in this manner, but they are not Djoker. The lawyers never come to their defence, I suppose there was no money in it!

On a separate issue, nobody could seriously believe Djoker's anti-vaccine attitude has changed, that assertion is made by his lawyers as a justification for him being allowed to stay, it is a joke and unprovable because it's opinion/speculation, but because of the falsified paperwork by he or his entourage it's clear beyond doubt he or they have a willingness for deception on his behalf.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 16, 2022, 06:19:15 pm
^^ Lawyers are lawyers.

They're a necessary evil who argue about legalities so the rest of us don't need to worry about the ins and outs of everything.

The rest is just details.

The details are important, but in terms of your pub test I know of as many people who will argue for Novak as I do who would argue against him, and where you sit is a choice made on many factors.

My wife herself stated that if she needed to be vaccinated to watch him, he should be vaccinated to play, and I simply stated to her that whether or not someone is vaccinated shouldn't be anyone's business but their own.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 16, 2022, 06:49:15 pm
My wife herself stated that if she needed to be vaccinated to watch him, he should be vaccinated to play, and I simply stated to her that whether or not someone is vaccinated shouldn't be anyone's business but their own.

Yes and no.

Victorians are sick of being told to follow the rules and jump through hoops. Finally we are (almost) all on the same page and doing the right thing......and then some privileged primadonna comes in and wants to challenge all that.
There is a right way and a wrong way to go about things, and his selfish, stuck up 'look at me out partying all over the world' vibe is something that we won't stand for.

So you wanna rub it in peoples faces, then suffer the consequences. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 16, 2022, 06:58:29 pm
Unaminous ruling ... can't dismiss that too easily. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 16, 2022, 07:37:20 pm
I'm ashamed to be an Australian today, wish I never became a citizen.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 16, 2022, 07:48:16 pm
https://www.theshovel.com.au/2022/01/14/pastor-djokovic-attend-two-week-aust-open-church-youth-camp/
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 16, 2022, 08:23:14 pm
https://www.theshovel.com.au/2022/01/14/pastor-djokovic-attend-two-week-aust-open-church-youth-camp/
Can't tell if you are serious....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 16, 2022, 08:24:07 pm
I'm ashamed to be an Australian today, wish I never became a citizen.
Interesting! Not born Australian?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on January 16, 2022, 08:35:15 pm
I'm ashamed to be an Australian today...........

I agree. Joke of a process and joke of a decision. His supposed views on vaccination have been known for at least 12 months - they have had negligible impact, given that he has effectively said nothing on the issue, and given that the Australian population is around 92-95% double vaccinated. Yep, he's a real influencer, that Novak.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 16, 2022, 08:54:30 pm
Yep, he's a real influencer, that Novak.
The best and worst of humanity always starts in a minority.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on January 17, 2022, 12:05:48 am
No doubt healthy Australians take comfort from the fact that between 92 and 95 % of the population are double vaccinated. 

However, people who suddenly develop life threatening illnesses requiring immediate hospitalisation but who cannot receive it because the wards are filled with non vaccinated covid patients from the remaining 5 to 8%,  most surely would not take a benign  view of the current situation.

I read on the weekend of the dilemma facing a surgeon who had to move an extremely ill cancer patient from an icu ward to make way for a non vaccinated covid patient.

In the real world small percentages can mean the difference between life and death.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 17, 2022, 06:38:08 am
Unaminous ruling ... can't dismiss that too easily. 

"Vučić said he was sure Djokovic “would have been treated differently if he hadn’t come from Serbia … If he was from another country, the approach would be completely different"


Oh please !!  Shut up fool
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 17, 2022, 08:14:59 am
However, people who suddenly develop life threatening illnesses requiring immediate hospitalisation but who cannot receive it because the wards are filled with non vaccinated covid patients from the remaining 5 to 8%,  most surely would not take a benign  view of the current situation.

In the real world small percentages can mean the difference between life and death.
I found out last week I have a relative in this very situation, found out he requires bypass surgery but because of the expected COVID surge they are delaying, they do not want him in the Alfred ICU with the risk of COVID and staff shortages, so they put him on some pretty harsh medication and are monitoring him at home in the interim, they think he will stay in that situation for at least 2 weeks until they are confident to proceed. As a 60 year old it's very serious situation, but as they stated if he gets COVID in recovery the situation is even worse because they have to give him some drugs to suppress his immune system as part of the procedure.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on January 17, 2022, 08:35:50 am
A nice bit of political theater. The government gets a temporary respite by keeping their never ending covid stuff ups off the front pages, and they get to show how they are "tough on border security", just in time for an election.

Maybe ScoMo has an autographed copy of Howard's LNP playbook. Look under T for Tampa. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on January 17, 2022, 08:37:40 am
No doubt healthy Australians take comfort from the fact that between 92 and 95 % of the population are double vaccinated. 

However, people who suddenly develop life threatening illnesses requiring immediate hospitalisation but who cannot receive it because the wards are filled with non vaccinated covid patients from the remaining 5 to 8%,  most surely would not take a benign  view of the current situation.

I read on the weekend of the dilemma facing a surgeon who had to move an extremely ill cancer patient from an icu ward to make way for a non vaccinated covid patient.

In the real world small percentages can mean the difference between life and death.

Well said. I confess that this galls me.

Firstly, I acknowledge that there are those who cannot for legitimate medical/health reason have a vaccination. However, there are those who refuse a vaccination based on pure stupidity, ignorance or breathtaking selfishness/arrogance. And these clowns have effectively hijacked our health care system. Fortunately, most Aussies are team players.

This is a 100% true story. A dear friend of mine in Gippsland is an anti-vaxxer. I asked her why recently. She replied that there is a hidden protein in the vaccine which will lead to those who've had the vaccine, dying from the flu in the future. Apparently this protein is designed to eliminate much of humanity. She was almost in tears when I told her I'd had both AZs and will be having the booster. Out of character, I just nodded... didn't challenge her on this view. I decided it would be pointless... like asking 2kgs of cheese to understand electricity - pick your battles. And this is an intelligent woman, an English teacher. Speechless.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 17, 2022, 09:24:58 am
I have no problem with rabid anti-vaxxers being shut out of Australia. Robert F. Kennedy or Andrew Wakefield can stay where they are, although given their ability to use social media keeping them out is more symbolic than anything. The case for exclusion is even better regarding alt-right activists who want to argue that government vaccination programs are a deep state way of killing the population or taking away their freedoms (and banning GOP politicians from coming to Australia would therefore be appropriate). But Novak as a lightning rod for anti-vaxxers? That's a bit of a stretch.

Anyway, Omicron has certainly created fresh challenges. Personally, I would have been happier if the Victorian Govt had increased restrictions to slow down the rate of infection. But it seems the hope is that Omicron will burn itself out quickly and intervention isn't advisable. I guess we'll only know whether that gamble will pay off in hindsight. At the very least, this hands-off approach certainly makes those who saw the Pandemic Management Act as a power play by the Victorian Govt look a bit silly. 

In the meantime, the hospitalisation numbers have ballooned from about 300 a few weeks back to 1229. And they're steadily rising.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on January 17, 2022, 10:16:31 am
A nice bit of political theater. The government gets a temporary respite by keeping their never ending covid stuff ups off the front pages, and they get to show how they are "tough on border security", just in time for an election.

Maybe ScoMo has an autographed copy of Howard's LNP playbook. Look under T for Tampa. 

Yep. Expecting anything other than populist decisions from SloMo is pure fantasy - such a glib, shallow, one-dimensional character.

The govt ads running at present declaring that the govt has secured millions of RATs... which will be available in the coming weeks!!!! ...is an embarrassing boast. Oh dear.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 17, 2022, 10:42:24 am
I bet tennis Australia wasn't expecting the 3 year ban on Djoker returning!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 17, 2022, 10:58:49 am
If Covid isn't an issue next year or if Djokovic gets jabbed, that won't be an issue. It's easily waived.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on January 17, 2022, 11:26:26 am
In some respects Novak being sent off has probably prevented a bit of a circus.
It's a bit like the old Hans Christian Andersen tale...'The Emperor's New Clothes.'

You'd have all the double vaccinated folks sitting in the stands while the King is in the 'altogether' out on centre court.
The reception may not have been the best.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 17, 2022, 11:44:08 am
In some respects Novak being sent off has probably prevented a bit of a circus.
It's a bit like the old Hans Christian Andersen tale...'The Emperor's New Clothes.'

You'd have all the double vaccinated folks sitting in the stands while the King is in the 'altogether' out on centre court.
The reception may not have been the best.
Agree, there may well be concerns in both directions relating to this, it is definitely not the simple either / or scenario the media debate.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on January 17, 2022, 02:40:25 pm
My three grandsons all have COVID.  The eldest has had two vaccinations and the younger two were booked in for their first vaccinations this week  ::)  They each have slightly different symptoms but basically similar to common cold symptoms.

My daughter and son in law, both triple vaxxed, haven't tested positive ... yet. 

They were supposed to come to our place for a family gathering yesterday but pulled out when the boys developed symptoms.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 17, 2022, 02:47:26 pm
They were supposed to come to our place for a family gathering yesterday but pulled out when the boys developed symptoms.
Wishing them well DJC.

I heard a Euro podcast overnight discussing Omicron trends, and it fits your description perfectly. Omicron can re-infect double vaxed after about 3 months, it can also openly re-infect people who had Delta. It looks like the 3rd booster of either AZ or Pfizer gives strong resistance to Omicron infection for up to 8 weeks starting about 2 weeks after the 3rd jab, and good long term efficacy against severe disease.

Even though Omicron can re-infect, all the vaccines as well as any prior natural Alpha or Delta infection should offer good efficacy for the reduction of severe symptoms. It also appears some other types of recent Corona Virus infection (Common cold variants) are offering some efficacy in the reduction of severe symptoms.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 17, 2022, 02:53:39 pm
I assume Tiley will be in some corner crying .... if you wanna bash anyone, start with him.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 17, 2022, 02:55:16 pm
Interesting to hear a bunch of super fit tennis professionals discussing the impact of COVID on their performance, sort of makes a mockery of those who want to paint Sars-CoV-2 as a sniffle!

These people are not Joe Average, they are uber-fit with beyond average cardio /  aerobic capacity, and Sars-CoV-2 has knocked them around!

And no, they weren't all make excuses post a loss, some of them are winners!

Youth courtesy of Facebook, Instatwit, Tik Croc and other social media platforms are not taking COVID seriously enough in my opinion.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 17, 2022, 02:58:24 pm
I assume Tiley will be in some corner crying .... if you wanna bash anyone, start with him.
I heard a rumour today going around some media circles there were credible threats made against Djoker, and also credible threats made against the general public on Djoker's behalf, so there might be far more to his re-export than just the vaccine stance. So much so security has now had to be beefed up at the tennis!

In trying to game the system, the various parties might have gone close to unleashing hell, it just takes one spark!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 17, 2022, 10:08:44 pm
Looks like Novax might have not be allowed to play the French Open either:
Quote
France’s vaccine pass law, approved by parliament on Sunday, will require people to have a certificate of vaccination to enter public places such as restaurants, cafes, cinemas and long-distance trains.

“The rule is simple. The vaccine pass will be imposed, as soon as the law is promulgated, in establishments that were already subject to the health pass,” the ministry said.

“This will apply to everyone who is a spectator or a professional sportsperson. And this until further notice.

“Now, as far as Roland Garros is concerned, it’s in May. The situation may change between now and then and we hope that it will be more favourable. So we’ll see, but clearly there’s no exemption.“
Unless Covid recedes, he'll have to wait for Wimbledon.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 18, 2022, 09:44:50 am
My associate in NSW says the shizen is starting to hit the fan up there in the health system, they think they opened up too rapidly, and now things are going backwards.

Parrotsay was sprouting the low deaths as a justification for opening up, and he is apparently back peddling faster than reverse footage of Charlie Chaplin cycling!

The problem is not linear, most of us here knew that, everyone who doesn't have their head in the sand knows it, the lag between opening up, getting lots of new cases in a short period of time, and the chain of deaths looks like it's going to bite them on the ar5e! They haven't respected the math!

I do worry about the removal of border restrictions, apparently exporting relatives to locations that have beds has become "a thing", but the health system is altruistic and won't refuse treatment to the hospital shoppers!

PS: Code Brown for Vic, does that mean it's crap yourself time?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 19, 2022, 07:53:09 am
It's only a few percent, you hear and read that often.

It's only a few percent more contagious, it's a few percent less deadly, the vaccines have a few percent less efficacy.

Such is the tale of Omicron, the latest UK data suggests Omicron transmission is up about 10% relative to Delta, up from 21% to 31%. Just 10%, it's not much at all, and yet!

It's amazing what impact a few percent can have, and this is happening under reduced, partial and self-imposed lockdowns, yet there are still pundits asking for things to be thrown wide open, if they do it won't be a few percent, the health system pain will be 2x or 3x the current problem!

What does 2x or 3x look like if what we currently experience is the result of just a 10% change?

Humans are awful at evaluating risk, personal opinion is worthless, while the math is effectively a god despite the derision of the science on social media. A 10% increase in the risk of transmission, a removal of some or all restrictions because we perceive Omicron as less deadly, and we are in our current situation with far more people hurting than ever happened under lockdowns! But the Feds think they will save a dollar, hoorah! ;) Well, that saving seems to be evaporating by the second, too many dodgy economic hypotheses from economic B-Graders again, we suffer this over and over again, while the politicians pork barrel billion$ people can't get a cheap lateral flow test and health workers can't get PPE or masks, all could be solved for the price of a carpark it seems, ............. and yet! :o

The good news is, well perhaps bad news if you are an anti-vaxer, it looks like for any vaccine the 3rd booster is delivering massive efficacy, not only against severe symptoms but also increased prevention, much of the data suggesting between 85% and 98% efficacy for the 3rd shot for any brand of vaccine!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 19, 2022, 09:04:56 am
The fallout from this mess will be incalculable.  That state by state bitching just as bad

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on January 19, 2022, 11:20:48 am
My three grandsons all have COVID.  The eldest has had two vaccinations and the younger two were booked in for their first vaccinations this week  ::)  They each have slightly different symptoms but basically similar to common cold symptoms.

My daughter and son in law, both triple vaxxed, haven't tested positive ... yet. 

They were supposed to come to our place for a family gathering yesterday but pulled out when the boys developed symptoms.

My daughter and son in law now have COVID too; just mild cold symptoms.

My daughter says the boys are well enough to wrestle and make a lot of noise  ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 19, 2022, 12:32:37 pm
Here's 2 articles about combatting Omicron:

The Age article is from Liam Mannix who IMO is a brilliant science reporter.

The Salon article reveals Pfizer is releasing an Omicron-specific vaccine in March.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on January 19, 2022, 12:46:00 pm
My three  and a half year old grandson calls it "The Sickness".
He doesn't know a world where folks dont regularly mask up.
He doesn't know a world without Covid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 19, 2022, 01:08:59 pm
My three  and a half year old grandson calls it "The Sickness".
He doesn't know a world where folks dont regularly mask up.
He doesn't know a world without Covid.
It must give you a reason to persist, so that you can show your Grandson the beauty of the world as it should be!

This impact of the pandemic on your grandson is in my opinion the worst of the worst.

I care nothing for the bleating adults who wail over their lost privileges, they can't have a pint, they have to stay home and cook, the gym is closed and Pilates is cancelled, shallow wails that expose a world of self-importance and narcissism!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 19, 2022, 01:15:31 pm
My 7yo got his first jab yesterday. No issues.

I'm trying to book my booster now, website is buckling under the pressure and i can't get through!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 19, 2022, 02:25:56 pm
My 7yo got his first jab yesterday. No issues.

I'm trying to book my booster now, website is buckling under the pressure and i can't get through!
Not sure what you had before, but if it was Pfizer or AZ then try / consider getting Moderna for this one, there is growing evidence that the Moderna booster in combination with the others is delivering the best broad spectrum efficacy.

Rough figures I've seen touted;
Az-Az-Az = 75%
Pfizer-Pfizer-Pfizer = 85%
Az-Az-Pfizer = 85%
Pfizer-Pfizer-Az=83%
Az/Pfizer - Az/Pfizer - Moderna = 94%
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 19, 2022, 04:22:01 pm
Not sure what you had before, but if it was Pfizer or AZ then try / consider getting Moderna for this one, there is growing evidence that the Moderna booster in combination with the others is delivering the best broad spectrum efficacy.

Rough figures I've seen touted;
Az-Az-Az = 75%
Pfizer-Pfizer-Pfizer = 85%
Az-Az-Pfizer = 85%
Pfizer-Pfizer-Az=83%
Az/Pfizer - Az/Pfizer - Moderna = 94%

Yeah i know varying your booster offers best protection....and have said that same thing on this site when others have asked.

At the end of the day i went for a 3rd dose of pfizer. Why? Well i know i don't get a bad reaction to it and there's current theory about omicron needing its own vaccine from March anyway.  So whichever way you go, a better version is coming, so i went for 'stick with what works for me' with the knowledge i'll be better protected in the future by the 'new' vaccine anyway.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on January 19, 2022, 04:54:00 pm
Not sure what you had before, but if it was Pfizer or AZ then try / consider getting Moderna for this one, there is growing evidence that the Moderna booster in combination with the others is delivering the best broad spectrum efficacy.

Rough figures I've seen touted;
Az-Az-Az = 75%
Pfizer-Pfizer-Pfizer = 85%
Az-Az-Pfizer = 85%
Pfizer-Pfizer-Az=83%
Az/Pfizer - Az/Pfizer - Moderna = 94%

I heard the same thing from medico buddies... premium seems to be Pf+Pf+Mod.
I'm booked in for my booster on Saturday - just on 4 months after my 2nd Az. And having had Az twice I'll be opting for a Pf or Mod whichever is available. My sister had Az/Az and the Pf booster last week... she got the same sore arm as first Az but otherwise no problemo.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 19, 2022, 08:18:04 pm
I heard the same thing from medico buddies... premium seems to be Pf+Pf+Mod.
I'm booked in for my booster on Saturday - just on 4 months after my 2nd Az. And having had Az twice I'll be opting for a Pf or Mod whichever is available. My sister had Az/Az and the Pf booster last week... she got the same sore arm as first Az but otherwise no problemo.
Just a public service announcement. You only have to wait 3 months for a booster now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 20, 2022, 08:11:28 am
And perhaps there it is, the fraud exposed.
Quote
Copenhagen: The pandemic has blocked Novak Djokovic’s march to tennis history, so the 34-year-old may be pinning his hopes on a cure for COVID to get his hands on another glorious grand slam before time runs out.

The Serbian superstar, who became a focus of the global vaccine debate over his failed attempt to enter Australia without being inoculated, holds a majority stake in a Danish biotech firm aiming to develop a treatment to counter COVID-19, the company’s CEO told Reuters.
Do what I say
Not what I do
All get sick
And I'll cure you! ;)

How will the anti-vaxing Djoker boosters rationalise this?

btw., There are scientists arguing against the type of solution being developed, because irreversible long term suppression/blocking of that process in cells is potentially far more dangerous than any vaccine!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 20, 2022, 08:16:11 am
You have to feel for her family!
Quote
Singer dies after getting Covid on purpose!
A well-known, unvaccinated European singer has died just days after intentionally catching Covid-19, leaving behind her shattered family. Czech folk singer Hanka Hek has died after intentionally catching Covid.
I wonder if her last words/lyrics were , "But I have a natural immunity!", the situation is depressingly sad because it impacts everyone in some way!

Yeah right, Parrotsay / Scomo, let it rip!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on January 20, 2022, 08:55:33 am
Moderna has announced that it will have a combined seasonal influenza and COVID vaccination in a couple of years.

Pfizer has announced that it is developing a combined COVID vaccination and erectile dysfunction treatment ...


Sorry, blame my son for that  :-*
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on January 20, 2022, 09:16:37 am
Moderna has announced that it will have a combined seasonal influenza and COVID vaccination in a couple of years.

Pfizer has announced that it is developing a combined COVID vaccination and erectile dysfunction treatment ...


Sorry, blame my son for that  :-*

Just a small prick in the arm?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on January 20, 2022, 09:26:40 am
Moderna has announced that it will have a combined seasonal influenza and COVID vaccination in a couple of years.

Pfizer has announced that it is developing a combined COVID vaccination and erectile dysfunction treatment ...


Sorry, blame my son for that  :-*

 :))  :)) Creative. Your son obviously has a good sense of humour.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: deepbluesee on January 20, 2022, 12:20:58 pm
I actually heard recently that they are giving Viagra to some gents in aged care.


Stop them falling out of bed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 20, 2022, 01:03:57 pm
The Tennis Australia 2022 Aust Open COVID Testing Policy as summarised by Alexander Zverev;

(https://www.macmillandictionary.com/external/slideshow/thumb/emoji_evil_thumb.jpg)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 20, 2022, 04:16:03 pm
Now novak is considering suing us for 6 million bucks.  What a stand up guy ....  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 20, 2022, 04:35:14 pm
Now novak is considering suing us for 6 million bucks.  What a stand up guy ....
Seems to need urgent funds for that COVID cure he is working on! ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: townsendcalling on January 20, 2022, 06:23:49 pm
Sue us for $6m and we uphold our 3 year ban that is hanging over his head.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 21, 2022, 01:04:11 pm
https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/this-is-an-end-serbia-revokes-rio-tinto-s-lithium-mine-licences-20220121-p59q4f.html

A Serbian protest group posted on social media on Friday calling for Rio Tinto to be given a “one-way ticket back to Australia”. “Serbia is not for sale!” it said.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 21, 2022, 01:48:03 pm
https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/this-is-an-end-serbia-revokes-rio-tinto-s-lithium-mine-licences-20220121-p59q4f.html

A Serbian protest group posted on social media on Friday calling for Rio Tinto to be given a “one-way ticket back to Australia”. “Serbia is not for sale!” it said.
The timing of the announcement might be political, but the resolution to block mining has been on the cards for several years, it's not new, even before the pandemic formal opposition started in 2019 just after Rio Tinto applied.

fwiw, I believe mining had not even started, if it got through the political / legal process it was slated to begin in 2023.

Serbia has been trying to get one of the big global mining companies to develop the site since about 2002.

I suppose the media and some political groups want you to think it's because of Djoker, but there is no connection.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 21, 2022, 02:38:25 pm
The timing of the announcement might be political, but the resolution to block mining has been on the cards for several years, it's not new, even before the pandemic formal opposition started in 2019 just after Rio Tinto applied.

fwiw, I believe mining had not even started, if it got through the political / legal process it was slated to begin in 2023.

Serbia has been trying to get one of the big global mining companies to develop the site since about 2002.

I suppose the media and some political groups want you to think it's because of Djoker, but there is no connection.

https://firstsportz.com/tennis-novak-djokovic-backs-the-growing-protests-in-serbia-over-the-rio-tinto-mining/

5th December.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 21, 2022, 02:46:18 pm
https://firstsportz.com/tennis-novak-djokovic-backs-the-growing-protests-in-serbia-over-the-rio-tinto-mining/

5th December.
It's a long bow to assert some connection. Djoker was opposing it effectively asserting Vucic was a pig with his head in the Rio Tinto trough, yet Vucic was the one going into bat for Djoker even after that Rio Tinto argy bargy!

What it says to me is that Djoker is very good at reading the room, and it may well be that his followers are both anti-vax and anti-corporate/commercial. Ditto Vucic!

Even so this mining issue is years old, and even Djoker back in December 2021 was a very late comer to the debate, the decision was basically already made but still under the appeals process!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 21, 2022, 03:11:33 pm
A long bow is saying Djokovic wants everyone to get sick so he can sell the cure.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 21, 2022, 03:14:42 pm
Jack Darling is an anti-vaxxer and has been banned from the club until he gets the jab.

Weitering missed match sim today due to "Health and safety protocols" - eg has covid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 21, 2022, 04:01:31 pm
Jack Darling is an anti-vaxxer and has been banned from the club until he gets the jab.

Weitering missed match sim today due to "Health and safety protocols" - eg has covid.

McGowan not opening the borders till they're 80% triple dosed. Eagles and Dockers will have to move into hubs.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 21, 2022, 04:04:40 pm
A long bow is saying Djokovic wants everyone to get sick so he can sell the cure.
Yes true, it was a bit cheeky, and yet he won't make money from his investment without illness!

But to Djoker and his anti-vax entourage COVID is just a cold isn't it, why does it even need a cure?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 21, 2022, 04:06:49 pm
Jack Darling is an anti-vaxxer and has been banned from the club until he gets the jab.
There were a lot of naysayers when Jones announced his position, "It could only happen at Carlton" type arguments and fingerpointing.

But there will be plenty of others they are just not making it into the public arena yet, Jones was the first he won't be the last!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 21, 2022, 05:58:19 pm
There were a lot of naysayers when Jones announced his position, "It could only happen at Carlton" type arguments and fingerpointing.

But there will be plenty of others they are just not making it into the public arena yet, Jones was the first he won't be the last!
"It could only happen at.....[insert team here]"
We just happened to be the first and/or perhaps the biggest name.

As an aside, we can never get our train completely back on the tracks without the odd self-imposed derailing. Salary cap, board challenges, sacked coaches, brownlow shenanigans, sacked coaches....etc
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 22, 2022, 09:51:40 am
Cam Ellis yeoman is also untaxed and been put on Brisbane's inactive list.

Vic/nsw dates were ages ago (ala Jones retiring) but qld SA wa dates ended on Friday
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 23, 2022, 04:38:59 pm
Seems like the booster vaccines are very effective:    Older Victorians the hardest hit by latest COVID-19 wave, (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/older-victorians-the-hardest-hit-by-latest-covid-19-wave-20220122-p59qd4.html)The Age.
Quote
The new data also reveals Victorians who have received their third dose are being admitted to hospital at extremely low rates, with older people yet to receive their third vaccine dose the hardest hit.

It shows just 45 people who have received three doses of a COVID-19 vaccine have needed a hospital bed – less than 5 per cent of the 1029 coronavirus patients in hospitals on Saturday. The majority were aged 70 or over.
...
“I haven’t seen anyone really unwell who has had a booster dose,” said Dr Kasha Singh, an infectious diseases physician at the Royal Melbourne Hospital.
...
Patients who have received a third dose of COVID-19 vaccine represent less than 4 per cent of current hospital admissions up to Saturday, according to Health Department data. It’s a significant statistic since almost 30 per cent of adult Victorians have now received a booster, and those that become eligible first are more likely to have conditions putting them at higher risk from COVID-19.
The article notes that Delta had caused more illness in younger people while Omicron appears to be of most concern to older people.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 23, 2022, 04:41:44 pm
Seems like the booster vaccines are very effective:    Older Victorians the hardest hit by latest COVID-19 wave, (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/older-victorians-the-hardest-hit-by-latest-covid-19-wave-20220122-p59qd4.html)The Age.The article notes that Delta had caused more illness in younger people while Omicron appears to be of most concern to older people.
Yes, very interesting how the story evolves as more data arrives, pretty much end of story for the naysayers, but then most reasonable people already knew that was most likely the case!

I suspect this is telling us what most experts already knew and have been stating, long term immunity against Coronavirus is highly unlikely and the Flu / Sars annual combi vaccine is most likely. Get enough people vaccinated early in a preventative manner, well before the pandemic starts, and it won't get a strong hold!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on January 23, 2022, 05:30:12 pm
Back on 7 January I posted that my wife and I had had our booster shots on 20 December and became ill with a non-covid virus on 28 December.

It has taken until today for us to be well enough to leave home.  The symptoms were similar to having the flu with a permanent head cold and cough but without a temperature.  Our doctor has said we will never know what virus caused the problem.

Unfortunately, it seems we have more to contend with than just covid.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 23, 2022, 05:43:48 pm
Good to hear both of you are getting over whatever it was Macca. Not a great time to catch a mystery illness given the fears you'd naturally have about Covid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on January 23, 2022, 06:03:06 pm
Thanks, Mav.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on January 23, 2022, 07:40:02 pm
As an aside... I was startled to read The Age on-line headline a moment ago, 'Schools Prepare For RAT Rush...' That's all the kids need, plague of rodents...  :-[
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on January 23, 2022, 08:07:36 pm
As an aside... I was startled to read The Age on-line headline a moment ago, 'Schools Prepare For RAT Rush...' That's all the kids need, plague of rodents...  :-[

There's a good rodent exterminator from a place called Hammelin I understand.  Provides some good musical entertainment whilst he works too!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 23, 2022, 08:38:43 pm
There's a good rodent exterminator from a place called Hammelin I understand.  Provides some good musical entertainment whilst he works too!
I think I know him, is that Danny Kaye? :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on January 24, 2022, 07:38:14 am
I think I know him, is that Danny Kaye? :o

Danny Kaye, there's a blast from the past alright.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on January 24, 2022, 08:10:33 am
"The pellet with the poison's in the vessel with the pestle. The chalice from the palace has the brew that is true..." comedy classic. Danny was one of my fave actors as a kid. Behind the scenes, another sad comic besieged by depression. But so incredibly talented.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 24, 2022, 08:47:37 am
Apparently Boris Johnson has declared stay at home orders over, and is encouraging regular BAU activities.  Mask wearing not being enforced as well. 

Ireland also easing their restrictions (they were more severe than the UK).  My brother is spewing as he finally landed a role where he could work from home in London, and now he is dissapointed, that they are implementing a return to work strategy that sees him attend 5 in every 10 business days.

I just told him to be grateful that he has a job.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on January 24, 2022, 08:51:37 am
What's a RAT?   Where do you get them from? What mythical thing is this?     I've got rodents in my back shed but there ain't any RATs around here.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on January 24, 2022, 09:53:28 am
"The pellet with the poison's in the vessel with the pestle. The chalice from the palace has the brew that is true..." comedy classic. Danny was one of my fave actors as a kid. Behind the scenes, another sad comic besieged by depression. But so incredibly talented.

He was a big fave of my dear departed mother. She loved his movies,  especially Walter Mitty.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 24, 2022, 10:04:27 am
Apparently Boris Johnson has declared stay at home orders over, and is encouraging regular BAU activities.  Mask wearing not being enforced as well. 

Ireland also easing their restrictions (they were more severe than the UK).  My brother is spewing as he finally landed a role where he could work from home in London, and now he is dissapointed, that they are implementing a return to work strategy that sees him attend 5 in every 10 business days.

I just told him to be grateful that he has a job.
I realise the people in the decision chain probably do know more about what is going on than most of us, but I've heard more than one European based Epidemiologist declare in the last couple of weeks that in their view this pandemic still seems closer to the beginning than the end. Maybe they are just pessimists, but maybe not! :o

We all want it to be over, but I suspect a lot of the decisions are now more political and economic than health based, and that seems to be a driving factor in the great resignation overseas. People are not silly, they can see when somebody is putting dollars ahead of health, even though the bulk of people might not say anything!

I find it bizarre that many protestors claim those of us who get vaccinated and obey the restrictions are mindless sheep who can't see the wool being pulled over our eyes by the deep state. Yet most of us see the irony, having been exposed to a new way of working, having been prepared to change and adapt perhaps a new softer way of living on the planet, yet it's the protestors that object to this change and want us to return to the old ways, the way things were! Back to the daily commute, back to the million monkeys bashing away at a million typewriters, out of the home office or garden studio and back to the corporate sweatshop overlooked by the man. It seems the protestors are more aligned with The Boris and The Establishment than they would care to admit, and less aligned to the rest of us, truly ironic!

What was that someone wrote about people who dost protest too much?

Finally, what of the push back from regions, the great resignation brings a great migration. On a regular basis I'm already reading stories of semi-rural conflict. "They" move out of the city to the regions, but "they" want the convenience lifestyle so they bring development, if it is a wider trend it seems to be missing the point! Many who have for a long time lived and worked in the outer semi-rural regions can no longer afford to buy a property in their own town, demand skyrockets prices along with it!

@Thryleon I can see the need for change, but I'm not sure I have the will power or bravery to act on it like you have done!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on January 24, 2022, 01:09:40 pm
LP, re the push back from regions.  A very good example of this was in a two page spread in The Age outlining the conflict between the owner of Jayco and long-term residents of Nagambie.

It was reported that he wants to spend a considerable amount of money on development in the area which will result in a doubling of the population.

This has upset many current residents because they fear their way of life is under threat from "progress".

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 24, 2022, 03:13:49 pm
LP, re the push back from regions.  A very good example of this was in a two page spread in The Age outlining the conflict between the owner of Jayco and long-term residents of Nagambie.

It was reported that he wants to spend a considerable amount of money on development in the area which will result in a doubling of the population.

This has upset many current residents because they fear their way of life is under threat from "progress".
@Macca37 Actually, I haven't read that article but by coincidence I know some people from Melbourne that have a holiday farmlet up near Jamieson, they specifically bought there as a weekender so it wouldn't be overrun as you described, and now there is an influx of newbies who are loading up with proposals to turn local watering holes and cafés into fine dining, the locals are not happy! The fine dining stuff is OK for occasional victors, but residents and regular weekenders do not want to be paying $35 for a Fish-n-Chip main course, they just want a regular pub with regular family meals!

I could tell you another story, but if I post it I'd probably get banned or labelled a bigot, let's just say identifying as a DINK up there doesn't make you many friends. I think a safe rule when travelling is always fit in with the locals, when you get wherever you are going don't try to make it like home! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on January 24, 2022, 03:32:47 pm
Andrews is copping more criticism over his 'code brown' response which is designed to ease pressure on the health system. He's already backflipped on IVF being deemed as elective, which was always going to happen once the media jumped on the young women emotional TV appearance about her missing her chance to have children. All of a sudden the science supported IVF not being elective -X

Now senior surgeons are saying the blanket restriction has not been thought through as there are a several 'elective' surgeries that  apply very little pressure to the health system yet assist patients getting better quicker and ease the pressure on another back log once restrictions are lifted. He said day procedures that don't require stays overnight can be safely preformed during this time and stopping them is simply non sensical.

We have 120 odd in ICU in a state of over 6.5 million. One ICU bed per 55,000 in a state with 90% plus vaxed against statistically the weakest Covid variant and we are lead to believe the system is overwhelmed to the extent where restrictions this dire are necessary.   If this is true then our health system needs a serious overhaul.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 24, 2022, 04:09:18 pm
Andrews is copping more criticism over his 'code brown' response which is designed to ease pressure on the health system. He's already backflipped on IVF being deemed as elective, which was always going to happen once the media jumped on the young women emotional TV appearance about her missing her chance to have children. All of a sudden the science supported IVF not being elective -X

Now senior surgeons are saying the blanket restriction has not been thought through as there are a several 'elective' surgeries that  apply very little pressure to the health system yet assist patients getting better quicker and ease the pressure on another back log once restrictions are lifted. He said day procedures that don't require stays overnight can be safely preformed during this time and stopping them is simply non sensical.

We have 120 odd in ICU in a state of over 6.5 million. One ICU bed per 55,000 in a state with 90% plus vaxed against statistically the weakest Covid variant and we are lead to believe the system is overwhelmed to the extent where restrictions this dire are necessary.   If this is true then our health system needs a serious overhaul.

Whilst I share the sentiment over the last few weeks at work I noticed that the furlough numbers at my old healthcare employer were at roughly 10% of the workforce being off for at least the last 4 weeks.

This doesn't apply solely to medical staff.  People eat, linen gets washed, people are admitted and booked in, payroll staff organise for pay, it work is done, health information services apply coding data nurse educators provide nurses with education etc.

Each department runs with minimal staff at maximum efficiency.   The pandemic has caused a burnout in these places on a level I personally hadn't seen before.  Thing is the pandemic response has been as big an issue as the pandemic itself.  You have a lot of staff who have had no meaningful break from work, and no time off at all. 

They are monitoring 10000 patients in the community along with pcr testing, and vaccine administration, and the regular fulfilment of services despite what the numbers look like on covid statistics.

Surgical booking and the like, is something that can scale.  Despite "restrictions" category 1 and category 2 patients continue their surgeries as scheduled and what isn't happening are the cat 3s and 4s (which are bing done as category 1 because there is no sense stopping everything when not necessary).

The pandemic isn't stopping hospitals from operating, they just aren't using 100% capacity to cater for surge where necessary.   Thing is, that's a sliding scale.

Don't buy into the external noise.  They don't listen to what's going on in the healthcare networks its designed to make you outraged.

The real question I have is why are you outraged?

The health care networks are stretched staff wise but not because the kick up in patients solely, its because of the potential kick up.  One health service monitoring over 10k patients who are covid positive and not admitted is something someone needs to plan for even if you don't think it's necessary because if they all need up needing care, it does need some provisioning and the code brown is as much about furlough as it is the pandemic.  There is no use someone being monitored for a cardiac arrest or stroke by a covid positive nurse or doctor or pushed around by a covid positive PSA or served food by a covid positive kitchen staffer.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 24, 2022, 04:25:58 pm
@LP Regarding change the only thing permanent is change.  During the pandemic ive operated on a plan for the worst and plan for the best case scenario but ultimately my employer made it easy for me to embrace change because of their sheer short sightedness (yes, Vic health).

I plunged 10% of cash into the stock market last year to Kickstart a retirement fund.  Tick.  Bought blue chip stocks at discounts not seen since the GFC, and most have recovered quite nicely.

I commenced a course in cyber security to leverage a growing demand in my industry whilst in lockdown.  This may or may not pay off but im learning things which is good enough and at worst broadens my skillset.

The other thing I've done is leveraged the vaccine mandate to get myself a promotion and career growth using the vaccine to my advantage.  Lots of anti vax sentiment in IT land, has resulted in shortages of people who will be dedicated to the task and appropriately qualified.   Thats got me into a role i lack formal qualifications for but I have some experience doing as part of a helper of sorts.  End result a smaller company recognised i can fill a hole and have taken a bit of a gamble based on my potential to fill the need.



These things will pay dividends in time, once covid is a thing of the past and maybe sooner if I'm lucky, but even if covid is here to stay, I've done what I can to profit from a crap situation, now its do what I can to avoid infection and stay safe.  Easy enough to do. 

All the while I have been critical of some of the strategy and government response, for its somewhat hypocrisy.   As a health care worker I spent more time in the covid firing line than the average employee.  I didn't qualify for the payments that other employees got for being in that firing line because of a lack of understanding of people to see that some staff go into the danger zone and come out again rather than doing a full shift in an equivalent where there were no covid positive patients.

This also meant no proactive testing for us.  A big stuff up from staff who only see the patient care experience from the clinical perspective which was arguably what made it easy for me to jump out of that space.

Ironically, I'm facing more restriction from my new client side about attending than I did at a health service who publically told staff not to move around and then internally asked why it took so long to see someone from IT and encouraged seeing more people as soon as possible. 

This is where the government lack empathy for the common person and are solely reacting with a lack of fore thought to all the things.  Its like the effort goes into the key visible reaction rather than the unseen prevention and a cynic will state its because no votes or glory is won in areas that aren't publicly visible...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 24, 2022, 05:32:23 pm
Re code Brown...
Instead of the government trying to get a grasp on the intricacies of the hospital system, and the differences between hospitals....

.... why not allow hospitals to make their own calls?
If they want to cancel ivf, day surgeries etc etc then do it.  If not, don't. If they want to change their mind, then do it.

Is it not that simple?
What am I missing?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on January 24, 2022, 07:39:23 pm
Re code Brown...
Instead of the government trying to get a grasp on the intricacies of the hospital system, and the differences between hospitals....

.... why not allow hospitals to make their own calls?
If they want to cancel ivf, day surgeries etc etc then do it.  If not, don't. If they want to change their mind, then do it.

Is it not that simple?
What am I missing?



Exactly!   But that takes common sense which this government during this pandemic has shown an inability to use and with a power trip premier at the helm a blanket restriction is more in his kit bag.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 24, 2022, 08:23:31 pm
It isn't that simple.

Follow the funding model for hospitals and you will have your answer.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 24, 2022, 08:26:39 pm
It isn't that simple.

Follow the funding model for hospitals and you will have your answer.

OK, so money controls everything, we know that, but what does that change in this scenario?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on January 24, 2022, 09:03:10 pm
It isn't that simple.

Follow the funding model for hospitals and you will have your answer.

So the surgeons at the coal face saying they should proceed with certain elective procedures are ill informed?

I have had to deal with a few of the very top surgeons over the years and there is no greater respect I have for anyone in any field then those guys. There are hero’s, who work crazy hours because they are devoted to the cause and apart from being the smartest people I have ever encountered, there wasn’t much about the health and hospital system as a whole they did not have a good grip on.

So if you saying we should take the governments decision over several respected surgeons view who have spoke against the restriction not a chance.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on January 24, 2022, 09:23:14 pm
So the surgeons at the coal face saying they should proceed with certain elective procedures are ill informed?

I have had to deal with a few of the very top surgeons over the years and there is no greater respect I have for anyone in any field then those guys. There are hero’s, who work crazy hours because they are devoted to the cause and apart from being the smartest people I have ever encountered, there wasn’t much about the health and hospital system as a whole they did not have a good grip on.

So if you saying we should take the governments decision over several respected surgeons view who have spoke against the restriction not a chance.
the surgeons are not running the place.

The government are the ones who set the accreditation standards. 

The government funds the place using tax payers dollars.

The nurses are generally the ones that run hospitals.

Surgeons, are surgeons.  Brilliant at what they do, but they don't run health services, even if they run their own private practise.  Most of them are poor at anything but their specialty.  In fact, they're highly specialized and usually pretty crap with the finer details of things outside their profession including being notoriously bad at managing finances.

Next time you speak to your top notch surgeon, ask them about how the health services are funded.

They wouldn't know.  They don't know that the government funds e erything based on health information managers applying codes to each and every treatment that is administered in a hospital encounter.  Heck, most of them don't even write their own notes.

The government doesn't do a Stirling job of everything.  I've been employed by a health service since Chris Judd last played for West coast, and the biggest issue I had with what they did with money was how they consumed their budget to ensure they got a similar amount next year, but they do service all parts of the community in like fashion, and they don't share staff across health services because there are additional considerations there regarding employment contracts, resourcing, training, and ensuring that staff actually know what they're doing at each health service.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on January 24, 2022, 10:21:34 pm
the surgeons are not running the place.

The government are the ones who set the accreditation standards. 

The government funds the place using tax payers dollars.

The nurses are generally the ones that run hospitals.

Surgeons, are surgeons.  Brilliant at what they do, but they don't run health services, even if they run their own private practise.  Most of them are poor at anything but their specialty.  In fact, they're highly specialized and usually pretty crap with the finer details of things outside their profession including being notoriously bad at managing finances.

Next time you speak to your top notch surgeon, ask them about how the health services are funded.

They wouldn't know.  They don't know that the government funds e erything based on health information managers applying codes to each and every treatment that is administered in a hospital encounter.  Heck, most of them don't even write their own notes.

The government doesn't do a Stirling job of everything.  I've been employed by a health service since Chris Judd last played for West coast, and the biggest issue I had with what they did with money was how they consumed their budget to ensure they got a similar amount next year, but they do service all parts of the community in like fashion, and they don't share staff across health services because there are additional considerations there regarding employment contracts, resourcing, training, and ensuring that staff actually know what they're doing at each health service.





Fair enough.

Agree to disagree on this one. I would back the surgeons in and the ones I knew had a lot of knowledge about the system they operated in. I understand your point just struggle to back the government over them. 

Anyhow on a completely different front you mentioned Chris Judd. My wife and I happen to sit with the great man and his family on a plane last week. Very down to earth all of them and couldn’t believe how well behaved the kids are!  Chris looks like he could still play by the way. His son had a cough and beck said don’t worry it’s not corona and chris grinned and said it’s not a good time to have a cough!
Geez I loved watching him in his prime. How many games when you could really see he was on another level to everyone on the field.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 25, 2022, 09:31:00 am
Aaron Rodgers Rips Joe Biden And 'Fake White House' In Anti-Vax Rant, (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/aaron-rodgers-joe-biden_n_61ee8b66e4b03c2b084cbb5d)HuffPost.

What is it about rich sports stars that make them think they understand medical science? What a drop kick. I might just have to re-watch the ending of the Packers' playoff game. The universe has a sense of humour.

How this guy ever was invited to host Jeopardy on the basis he's some sort of intellectual has me beat. Learning at the feet of Professor Rogan isn't much by way of accreditation.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 25, 2022, 10:13:05 am
Baby ‘turned blue’ after bizarre Covid advice from underground Telegram group, (https://www.news.com.au/technology/online/baby-turned-blue-after-bizarre-covid-advice-from-underground-telegram-group/news-story/d95817780804165478b2a4edb92fa586) news.com.au.

Reporters from Vice had infiltrated a QAnon Telegram group which shared tips on treating Covid (not that they believe in Covid) with Ivermectin and the like. A young father of a 6 month old asked for advice given his wife had tested positive for Covid a week before and the baby began suffereing "flu-like symptoms". He wondered whether Ivermectin was suitable for babies.

Quote
“Baby aspirin to thin the blood a little and drop any fever and I would put some ivermectin on the bottoms of her feet,” one group member responded — while others said he should wait to take advice from “experts” in ivermectin usage on the group.

One user called Katie, who claimed to be an expert, piped up.

“From what I understand, yes it is safe to give to an infant, however please stop calling it Covid, it’s not Covid, it’s a simple cold. That’s how we got in this mess to begin with,” Katie wrote.

Jason took the advice and gave his baby a dose of ivermectin.

“We gave her two doses of ivermectin at 50mg each. That’s what was recommended by someone on here. She got really sick after that. Related? I don’t know,” Jason claimed in an update.

Within minutes, Jason reported that his little girl’s condition was deteriorating.

“Baby threw up. Is that common side effect? She’s also turning a tad blue,” Jason said.

Shockingly, somebody said this had happened to their child as well and they took him to hospital — something Jason wasn’t keen to do.

Jason responded: “We don’t trust hospitals. I told my son to give her more ivermectin.”

Group members pleaded with Jason to go to the hospital.

“That baby needs to go to the ER. Do not hesitate,” one group member called Barbara, who said she was a respiratory therapist, wrote. “I’ve seen too many go south due to O2 levels being low. The blue is hypoxia and that’s lack of oxygen at the tissue level. Please!”

Finally, Jason told the group, the child was taken to hospital.

“[My] son is taking baby to urgent care. Against my wishes but I’m praying for her. It’s in God’s hands now,” Jason wrote before later adding an update that Ruby was “doing better.”

“God knew what to do even though I thought hospital was certain death,” Jason wrote on Wednesday night. “Thanks for everyone’s advice.”

Oh boy ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 25, 2022, 10:47:16 am
Baby ‘turned blue’ after bizarre Covid advice from underground Telegram group, (https://www.news.com.au/technology/online/baby-turned-blue-after-bizarre-covid-advice-from-underground-telegram-group/news-story/d95817780804165478b2a4edb92fa586) news.com.au.

Reporters from Vice had infiltrated a QAnon Telegram group which shared tips on treating Covid (not that they believe in Covid) with Ivermectin and the like. A young father of a 6 month old asked for advice given his wife had tested positive for Covid a week before and the baby began suffereing "flu-like symptoms". He wondered whether Ivermectin was suitable for babies.

Oh boy ...
These people need their anonymity removed and to be charged, that child is better off with some other family.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 25, 2022, 12:20:39 pm
As countries open borders, in the hope that the public's will to travel resumes soon, I don't get why we not testing every traveller that arrives on the spot.

A RAT test takes about 10 to 15min to complete, way faster than it takes to get through border control and customs quarantine. It's not hard to imagine they could issue a RAT for each arriving passenger sometime prior to passport checks, and get the result prior to collecting baggage and clearing customs quarantine.

When there have been regional terrorist threats the heightened levels of security promote countries doing manual bag searches of full aircraft, sometimes more than once, up in SE Asia it's quite common to go through scanners then a manual baggage check at the gate.

So they can't really argue it's too hard to swab everyone from an arriving flight, a few dozen health care workers could each do a passenger a minute comfortably because each passenger already has identifying documents. Most of the domestic testing lag is due to forms that would not be needed in arrivals. In any case, swabbing for a RAT is as fast as if not faster than having your carry on checked.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on January 25, 2022, 01:21:12 pm
Booster done. Had it yesterday. So... Az+Az+Moderna booster. Sore arm, tired but no temperature, headaches etc. Almost 5 months between 2nd Az and Mod. 24 hours on and continuing to improve.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on January 25, 2022, 01:57:48 pm
Booster done. Had it yesterday. So... Az+Az+Moderna booster. Sore arm, tired but no temperature, headaches etc. Almost 5 months between 2nd Az and Mod. 24 hours on and continuing to improve.
I had my booster on friday. triple pfizer.

I'm not sure i was 100% before i got it, but i certainly wasn't after.
Sore arm (for the first time)
achy+tired....sensitive to touch.
Lasted all of the weekend and some of monday.

Didn't stop me from doing anything, more of a mild inconvenience.,,,,much better than the alternative.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on January 25, 2022, 06:49:21 pm


https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/dan-andrews-pandemic-response-is-rated-the-worst-in-australia/ar-AAT742A?ocid=entnewsntp

Any other result would be laughable.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 25, 2022, 06:57:44 pm
Quote
Associate Professor Rob Manwaring from Flinders University said he believed some of the pushback against the Andrews government was political.

'Basically, a sizeable majority were supportive of the strong lockdown measures,' he told the Herald Sun.

'But in this and the NSW score, you can see a small but vocal minority who really pushed back; there is a partisan effect here, I am willing to bet, of trenchant liberals and anti-Labor sentiments.'
Yep, Victoria is the only State where the opposition sided with the anti-maskers, anti-vaxxers & anti-lockdowners. Shame, shame shame!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on January 25, 2022, 07:21:07 pm

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/dan-andrews-pandemic-response-is-rated-the-worst-in-australia/ar-AAT742A?ocid=entnewsntp

Any other result would be laughable.


Never get in the way of a totalitarian
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 26, 2022, 10:44:55 am
Interesting move by Neil Young, telling Spotify either they address Joe Rogan's fake vaccine and COVID news channel or they have to withdraw all his content.

Imagine if Neil Young gets a few more major artists on board, the artists have nothing to fear because they are the majority and all they have to do is stand together!

btw., Joe Rogan was a big peddler of Trump's Regeneron cure, in fact Joe claimed at one stage he used it himself, but it's been withdrawn after being found to be useless against Sars-CoV-2! This type of misinformation is peddled, mostly stuff like HCQ, Ivermectin, Regeneron as a cure by the likes of Trump and Rogan, springs from COVID naysayers confusing a useful treatment for a comorbidity with Sars-CoV-2 treatment. If you get an ancillary infection, a parasite, bacteria or some secondary virus, doctors might find them useful, but against Sars-CoV-2 alone they are useless.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on January 26, 2022, 06:01:07 pm
My daughter's brother in law is a theatre nurse.  He explained that their case load is 50-75% of pre-COVID times but the COVID protocols, furloughs, etc mean that he is working longer and harder than he did pre-COVID. 

On a brighter note, my daughter's family have finished their COVID ISO and came over today for a swim and a game of cricket  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on January 27, 2022, 05:18:32 pm
Interesting move by Neil Young, telling Spotify either they address Joe Rogan's fake vaccine and COVID news channel or they have to withdraw all his content.

Imagine if Neil Young gets a few more major artists on board, the artists have nothing to fear because they are the majority and all they have to do is stand together!

btw., Joe Rogan was a big peddler of Trump's Regeneron cure, in fact Joe claimed at one stage he used it himself, but it's been withdrawn after being found to be useless against Sars-CoV-2! This type of misinformation is peddled, mostly stuff like HCQ, Ivermectin, Regeneron as a cure by the likes of Trump and Rogan, springs from COVID naysayers confusing a useful treatment for a comorbidity with Sars-CoV-2 treatment. If you get an ancillary infection, a parasite, bacteria or some secondary virus, doctors might find them useful, but against Sars-CoV-2 alone they are useless.

Just reading that it's not Neil Young's call  as to whether or not his music appears on Spotify. Apparently he sold the rights for $150 mill some years ago now! He has subsequently withdrawn his demand it is reported. Who cares🤭 .
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 27, 2022, 06:31:52 pm
Just reading that it's not Neil Young's call  as to whether or not his music appears on Spotify. Apparently he sold the rights for $150 mill some years ago now! He has subsequently withdrawn his demand it is reported. Who cares🤭 .
I think it is interesting to think artists might take this sort of stand against Spotify or similar social media streaming services, probably many of which are either Google or Meta owned.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 27, 2022, 08:22:03 pm
Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Blasts FDA For Halting Drugs Ineffective On Omicron, (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ron-desantis-fda-ineffective-drugs-omicron_n_61f076c3e4b01d3f29939a5c) HuffPost.

The FDA in the US has pulled the EUAs given to Regeneron & Eli-Lilley for their moniclonal antibody treatments. The Regeneron antibody treatment became famous when it was used to treat Trump when he contracted Covid. The EUAs were pulled as these treatements have no effectiveness against Omicron.

Quote
The FDA announcement was expected, as both drugmakers have said for weeks that the treatments are less able to target omicron because of its mutations. In updated drug labeling released Monday, the FDA said omicron appears 1,000-fold less vulnerable to Regeneron’s drug and nearly 3,000-fold less vulnerable to Lilly’s drug.

Quote
Federal officials said the FDA decision was supported by several independent studies, including a peer-reviewed paper published in the journal Nature last month. In that study, a consortium of European researchers tested the ability of several antibody drugs to neutralize a live sample of the virus, concluding that Lilly and Regeneron’s antibodies “were inactive against omicron.”

The American Medical Association, the nation’s largest physician group, said it agreed with the FDA decision, issuing a statement that read: “Limiting the use of these treatments will help ensure patients receive the best available therapy.”

Bizarrely, Florida Governor Ron De Santis has railed against this decision, blaming Biden for 'medical authoritarianism' even though it was an FDA decision. Biden's spox said it was amazing that De Santis is advocating for patients to be able to use treatments that don't work. Not surprising really: if you're going to campaign against vaccines & masks which work, you need to have some miracle cure to take their place. HCQ & Ivermectin are fake treatments, and now treatments that used to work no longer work.

This exposes how ridiculous the Ivermectin push was. If Covid mutates and renders ineffective some treatments that were effective, how can Ivermectin shills argue that in vitro results using high concentrations of Ivermectin and flawed or fraudulent early studies are relevant now? It's not as though there was any real evidence that Ivermectin was effective against the original Covid strains but there's absolutely no evidence they work against Delta or Omicron. Flyboy used to argue that the way governments and vaccine makers adjusted vaccination programs and the vaccines themselves to maintain the effectiveness of vaccinations was somehow an admission of failure. But when we compare vaccines to treatments such as Regeneron's, we see that adaptability is a strength not a weakness when dealing with a mutating virus.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on January 27, 2022, 11:32:08 pm

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/dan-andrews-pandemic-response-is-rated-the-worst-in-australia/ar-AAT742A?ocid=entnewsntp

Any other result would be laughable.


Shawny - this still says that 63% reckon he went just OK to very well?  145 of the 403 Victorians surveyed answered in the negative and 254 in the positive the rest were getting splinters.  Wouldn't take this seriously - either way.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 28, 2022, 01:03:06 pm
How COVID and it's comorbidities are selectively reported is truly disturbing at times. The truth behind ICU is even scarier than the published death figures as simplistic as they are, they distort perception when you read something like, 30 deaths today, most deaths over 65, etc., etc..

It paints a picture that young people (< 30) are exiting the pandemic unscathed, when the reality is nothing could be further from the truth.

The severe long term effects of COVID are significantly present in the population across the age spectrum, no researcher as yet can definitively report why and science cannot yet predict who is at risk.

It's the statistics that tell us elderly are at more risk of death, counting the dead comes too late, but even then the why is not always clear.

Even foggier is the how and why behind non-lethal severe disease, severe disability or long COVID, and it will probably be that way for years to come!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 28, 2022, 01:12:07 pm
Shawny - this still says that 63% reckon he went just OK to very well?  145 of the 403 Victorians surveyed answered in the negative and 254 in the positive the rest were getting splinters.  Wouldn't take this seriously - either way.
Such a small survey, just way too small to be representative, for example the last unrestricted Vic State Liberal Party conference I'm aware of was held in Ballarat with over 1200 attending, would you run the poll there?

Such a small poll can grossly distort the outcome, as can being selective about where and when you ask the question as well as the question you ask.

I think the small number should make the reader very suspicious of the results.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 28, 2022, 01:46:06 pm
The four factors that could lead to long COVID, The Age. (https://www.theage.com.au/world/north-america/the-four-factors-that-could-lead-to-long-covid-20220127-p59rs1.html)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 28, 2022, 02:00:13 pm
The four factors that could lead to long COVID, The Age. (https://www.theage.com.au/world/north-america/the-four-factors-that-could-lead-to-long-covid-20220127-p59rs1.html)
Yes, I saw this yesterday, but it is far from the full story.

When it comes from the US it's highly likely to be something the Board of a Uni do rather than the research group, the Uni/College will throw out public summaries / papers very early in the process just like this one in the hope they will attract funding / investment.

One of the big problems with Sars-CoV-2 is the a suite of symptoms is so vast, the last summary I saw listed several dozen related symptoms and conditions attributed to Sar-CoV-2 infections. There is pretty much not an organ in your body it can't infect/impact. This has a very real and detrimental effect in trying to characterise COVID as a disease, because virtually everyone on the planet is less than perfect and it seems Sars-CoV-2 loves finding a weakness!

I suppose that broadness is one of the major contributing factors that eventually leads to a lot of debate about what is a COVID case or death.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 29, 2022, 11:03:26 am
So, now we have son of Omicron, a variant of the variant. Apparently, it's more transmissible than the original.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on January 29, 2022, 11:46:41 am
So, now we have son of Omicron, a variant of the variant. Apparently, it's more transmissible than the original.

I read an article from the UK where the data shows that influenza is more deadly than omricon. Delta by comparison was twice as deadly as influenza. Hopefully the son or cousin of omricon is milder again.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on January 29, 2022, 12:06:07 pm
I read an article from the UK where the data shows that influenza is more deadly than omricon. Delta by comparison was twice as deadly as influenza. Hopefully the son or cousin of omricon is milder again.

As nice as that thought is, there’s no guarantees.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 29, 2022, 01:19:03 pm
And unfortunately there's no guarantees there won't be a completely new variant coming along. Omicron has been a bit of a mystery. Scientists didn't see it coming and there are gaps in its family tree. To explain the gaps, there are 2 theories (and may be others):

Whatever the reason for Omicron being a surprise to epidemiologists might be, it appears that new mutations can suddenly appear like Captain Kirk transporting down from the Enterprise. Life wasn't meant to be easy, I guess ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 29, 2022, 01:20:35 pm
I read an article from the UK where the data shows that influenza is more deadly than omricon. Delta by comparison was twice as deadly as influenza.
I suspect that explanation will be based on percentages.

Be careful of articles that are comparing percentages because there are nowhere near as many Influenza cases as Sars-CoV-2 (Alpha, Delta or Omicron), so as a percentage of cases Sars-CoV-2 Omicron may be less deadly, but on average there are way way more cases of Omicron is far far easy to transmit.

We know when the figures are normalised, which scales the count so they can be directly compared, there are many more deaths from COVID as Influenza, I've read figures as high as 10:1. But it is hard to tell because historical data used for Influenza stats is very poor, and relative to modern Sars-CoV-2 data there haven't been any serious Influenza pandemics in recent decades.

PS; From what I can tell in the last decade Australia's worst Influenza year resulted in about 1000 deaths in a calendar year, across Australia we've had about a 1000 COVID deaths just in the month of January 2022.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on January 29, 2022, 02:59:07 pm
Just reading that it's not Neil Young's call  as to whether or not his music appears on Spotify. Apparently he sold the rights for $150 mill some years ago now! He has subsequently withdrawn his demand it is reported. Who cares🤭 .

Warner Brothers own the rights to Neil Young's music.  They acted on his behalf in pulling his music from Spotify.

Quote
“Before I told my friends at Warner Bros about my desire to leave the Spotify platform, I was reminded by my own legal forces that contractually I did not have the control of my music to do that,” Young wrote on his official website Wednesday. “I want to thank my truly great and supportive record company Warner Brothers – Reprise Records, for standing with me in my decision to pull all my music from Spotify. Thank You!”

Joni Mitchell has also removed her music from Spotify and I would have expected nothing less from her  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on January 29, 2022, 03:47:38 pm
Warner Brothers own the rights to Neil Young's music.  They acted on his behalf in pulling his music from Spotify.

Joni Mitchell has also removed her music from Spotify and I would have expected nothing less from her  :)

I really don't give a stuff DJ, it's been many a long year since I listened to any of their work and I don't use Spotify. Good luck to both of them and their families. 😎
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 29, 2022, 03:56:44 pm
I really don't give a stuff DJ, it's been many a long year since I listened to any of their work and I don't use Spotify. Good luck to both of them and their families. 😎
I think the main point isn't the who or what, it's the why and the what if!

Is this the start of the arts majority, who by the way are hurting more than most in the shadow of the pandemic, telling the media platforms that enable the fluffernutters who's stupidity extends everybody's pain, that enough is enough?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on January 29, 2022, 08:36:42 pm
Another candidate for the Darwin Award:
Washington State Trooper Who Quit Over Vaccine Mandates Reportedly Dies Of COVID, HuffPost (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/robert-lamay-gov-jay-inslee-vaccine-mandates-covid-19-washington_n_61f4d1d4e4b04f9a12bd8084)
Quote
Washington State Trooper Robert LaMay, who grabbed headlines when he blew up at Gov. Jay Inslee (D) over vaccine mandates, has died of COVID-19, KIRO news radio reported Friday.

He was 50.

LaMay signed off on his last day on the job on video saying: “Jay Inslee can kiss my ass.”

“We don’t do vaccines,” he told Fox News in an interview last year after he quit, referring to himself and his family. “We don’t do flu shots or any of that stuff.”

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 01, 2022, 11:16:50 am
Looks like some of the anti-vaxers in the AFL are going to blink and use the selection of the Novavax option as a "right to choose" get out clause!

Ironic that the same fragments of spike protein that exist in Pfizer or Moderna are somehow OK when it is delivered in different wrapper, regardless if the holdouts can use it as an excuse to get vaccinated then it's all good! But I'm not sure many of them will be convinced if they are truly anti-vax!

The whole issue seems to pivot on allergies, or perceived allergies, like when some vaccines cause problems for vegans because they are based on eggs. Which in itself seems a misunderstood concept in social media, there is a stark difference between an adjuvant and an anaphylactic shock!

Social media confuses an adjuvant, something which increases the bodies immune response, with an allergen that might lead to anaphylactic shock. In reality it should be far more alarming to people if they get no immune response at all, because if you get nothing it is possibly doing nothing!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 02, 2022, 10:00:24 am
Sad news for the Wheatley family, I wish them well.

Sometimes it's the simplest observation or question that exposes the lie.

If Joe "The Gish" Rogan and Donald Trump are right about Sars-CoV-2, that a few cheap tablets and a perhaps a costly jab can allegedly cure the flu like disease, then why are filthy rich people like Glenn Wheatley dying of COVID complications?

Are the naysayers going to assert Wheatley, along with a few other millionaires/billionaires, would rather perish, suffer or be disabled than pay for a cure that probably costs them less to buy than the price of a luxury car service?

The truth is all the money in the world buying all the cures you can find won't help the Portsea Private ICU set if it happens that Sars-CoV-2 takes a liking to your genetics!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 02, 2022, 04:00:42 pm
I read a mainstream media article today that exposes the inequity of Facebook, Instagram and Spotify, and how complicit they have become in spreading COVID misinformation for profit.

Joe "The Gish" Rogan gets about $100M per annum from Spotify for spreading his garbage information, apparently that's about 20x the going rate for the same number of hits/streams paid to a musician or singer.

Now if those social media platforms are truly paying Rogan $100M per annum for his COVID dribble, how much do the platforms make from COVID disinformation, it must be billion$ and billion$?

If this exposed detail is true, how could anyone trust or believe Rogan or any social media platform ever again?

Now it seems this is going to blow up for the social media giants, not because of those rallying against COVID disinformation, but because of the remuneration disparity, dollar$ talk!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 02, 2022, 04:12:37 pm
He isn't the biggest anti vaxxer going around. It was one of his podcasts at the start of the pandemic that informed me how bad covid is.

He's just becoming another victim of cancel culture.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 02, 2022, 04:32:56 pm
He's just becoming another victim of cancel culture.
Looks like he pulled the wool over a few eyes, if he gets cancelled it seems he can afford it! ;D

An associate at work did a quick calculation on what local girl "Tone ands I" would be worth if Spotify and other social media valued and remunerated her the same as Joe "The Gish" Rogan. Apparently she has earned about $43M from streaming of her hits, if she got Rogan's pay deal she would earn about $720M!
(Rather than hits I think he used some complex time basis, equivalent streaming minutes per artist)

Has Tones and I been ripped off?

Rogan is a king of spin, he uses the Gish Gallop technique, slick and smooth but very very little of what he speaks stacks up.
Quote
Gish Gallop is a technique, named after the creationist Duane Gish who employed it, whereby someone argues a cause by hurling as many different half-truths and no-truths into a very short space of time so that their opponent cannot hope to combat each point in real time.
It sounds slick, it sounds knowledgeable, but when it's slowed down and analysed it turns out to be a hundred different flavours of the same bull5h1zen!

How much does internet nurse Dr John Campbell get paid, and does this explain his sometimes controversial deviations from reality?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 03, 2022, 08:21:55 am
I thought I might have been harsh on Joe Rogan when I gave him the label "The Gish".

Then today I found this article that makes an analogy with Gwyneth Paltrow, Joe "Goop" Rogan, ............. ouch!
https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/02/joe-just-conversations-rogan-defends-misinformation-like-a-classic-grifter/

He is just one step away from Fish Slapping it seems, accompanied by a jar of "training modality" vitamins, allegedly a bargain for about US$140 a bottle!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 03, 2022, 03:11:02 pm
Crosby, Stills and Nash have joined Neil Young in pulling their music from Spotify:

Quote
We support and agree with Neil: Joe Rogan’s podcast on Spotify is dangerous misinformation.

While committed to the expression of alternative opinions, knowingly spreading misinformation during this global pandemic has deadly consequences.

Older folk will be frantically downloading 🙄
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 03, 2022, 03:24:01 pm
A few more hop on for a ride aboard the Marrakesh Express
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on February 03, 2022, 03:46:14 pm
Just crank up the YouTube.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on February 04, 2022, 07:48:16 am
Got a problem with Crazy Horse DJC?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on February 04, 2022, 09:43:39 am
Crosby, Stills and Nash have joined Neil Young in pulling their music from Spotify:

Older folk will be frantically downloading 🙄

Older folk have the vinyl ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 04, 2022, 09:54:38 am
As each day passes it's looking more and more like the COVID disinformation thing is really just a smokescreen, a trigger to vent some backlash against social media over royalty disparities, based on what Rogan earns rightly so!

I don't get why younger artists are yet to jump on board, maybe they are scared to losing the followers, but perhaps they are more beholding to the social media royalties than the older artists who tasted success under different conditions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 04, 2022, 08:30:45 pm
Older folk have the vinyl ;)

True, but then there were share houses, house parties and folk who never returned borrowed LPs (that’s long players rather the the Spotted One).

I started cleaning my vinyl collection as a lockdown activity.  Gave it up after 15 or so 🙄
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 05, 2022, 01:09:18 am
True, but then there were share houses, house parties and folk who never returned borrowed LPs (that’s long players rather the the Spotted One).

I started cleaning my vinyl collection as a lockdown activity.  Gave it up after 15 or so 🙄
Do you remember those special cleaning heads you could buy, looked like a micro toothbrush? Sat on a swingarm opposite the needle.

Some people used a magic duster, looked like a whiteboard eraser.

FMD, they still sell them!
https://www.discrepancy-records.com.au/anti-static-goat-hair-vinyl-lp-record-cleaning-arm?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI85yNoZ7m9QIVEZNmAh2DZg-HEAQYASABEgJW0fD_BwE
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 05, 2022, 05:20:01 am
Do you remember those special cleaning heads you could buy, looked like a micro toothbrush? Sat on a swingarm opposite the needle.

Some people used a magic duster, looked like a whiteboard eraser.

FMD, they still sell them!
https://www.discrepancy-records.com.au/anti-static-goat-hair-vinyl-lp-record-cleaning-arm?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI85yNoZ7m9QIVEZNmAh2DZg-HEAQYASABEgJW0fD_BwE

Vinyl started outselling cds a couple years ago for the first time since cds were a thing.
It's becoming big business with 'new' bands releasing their albums on vinyl to cash in on the trend.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 05, 2022, 08:12:45 am
RSD sales in the States prove that !!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 05, 2022, 01:08:51 pm
Vinyl started outselling cds a couple years ago for the first time since cds were a thing.
It's becoming big business with 'new' bands releasing their albums on vinyl to cash in on the trend.

I have a friend who is a very successful younger musician and her last album was vinyl.  I chucked my old stereo years ago and had to buy a new turntable to play the album she gave me.  Of course, I'm now playing the vinyl albums I refused to throw out.  I did ditch my singles collection - apart from the Aunty Jack coloured record  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on February 05, 2022, 02:59:53 pm
I have a friend who is a very successful younger musician and her last album was vinyl.  I chucked my old stereo years ago and had to buy a new turntable to play the album she gave me.  Of course, I'm now playing the vinyl albums I refused to throw out.  I did ditch my singles collection - apart from the Aunty Jack coloured record  :)

Similar here... I did ditch my old (high quality :'( ) Turntable and amp and speakers... but I did hang on to all my albums and singles  ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 05, 2022, 03:15:06 pm
Similar here... I did ditch my old (high quality :'( ) Turntable and amp and speakers... but I did hang on to all my albums and singles  ;D
I think I've told this story before, but my missus had a garage sale and gave away / sold all my mothballed HiFi kit while I was on an OS business trip. Rotel, Harmon Kardon, Peterson, TEAC, Audio Technica, etc., etc.. One bloke saw the value in the whole lot and got a bargain, I think if I sit still for too long it'll be my fate as well! I actually know who bought it, it's setup in a south facing sunroom / studio / retreat and used quite a lot as a complete system, so at least it's not been resold and I'm not that fussed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 05, 2022, 03:16:49 pm
Vinyl started outselling cds a couple years ago for the first time since cds were a thing.
It's becoming big business with 'new' bands releasing their albums on vinyl to cash in on the trend.

Im not sure if its the fact that people don't buy media anymore.

Vynil isn't rising its cds falling as Spotify and apple music take over.  Who wants to house a collection anymore?  A couple of years back, a friend of mine gave me all his DVDs.  With the invention of Netflix and co he doesn't need them anymore. 

It is what it is.  Vynil is still the djs plaything. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 05, 2022, 04:39:07 pm
Similar here... I did ditch my old (high quality :'( ) Turntable and amp and speakers... but I did hang on to all my albums and singles  ;D

I have so many hand signed gems (bands / individuals) they're worth a lot.  Collectors fraternities are common.  Just gotta know how valuable they are and how to protect them.  The foot slog over decades was worth every inch.

Most millenials will never understand the "warmth" of vinyl sound against a CD.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 05, 2022, 05:45:49 pm
Many milennials wouldn't have listened to a CD either! :P
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 05, 2022, 05:55:56 pm
True
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on February 05, 2022, 06:16:42 pm
Recently moved house so I disposed of all my old vinyls, cds and dvds to save space. The vinyls were in demand which surprised me but cds and dvds not so much. In fact many op shops are reluctant to take them, along with books, these days. Anyway,  I ripped all of my music collection to an electronic library several years ago now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on February 05, 2022, 06:51:46 pm
Recently moved house so I disposed of all my old vinyls, cds and dvds to save space. The vinyls were in demand which surprised me but cds and dvds not so much. In fact many op shops are reluctant to take them, along with books, these days. Anyway,  I ripped all of my music collection to an electronic library several years ago now.

Op shops are a bit 'diamonds or stones' for vinyl.
It's usually James Last, Des O'Connor, Kamahl or the greatest hits of the Mormon Tabernacle choir. ;D

I struck a bit of a gem at our local yesterday.
Most of my vinyl (around 400 records) would be 80% late fifties and 1960s material.
Someone had dropped off a batch of singles without covers from that era to the lifeline store.
They were selling them for $1.00 a record but the store had a 60% discount day so I snapped up a heap.
Played them all yesterday afternoon and despite the lack of protective covers they were all in pretty good condition.
I've had no problems keeping and storing my records.
I can't say they're all in great shape...they've been played to death over the years.

(Have we drifted off topic a bit...might need a separate thread.)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on February 05, 2022, 07:34:02 pm
I have a friend who is a very successful younger musician and her last album was vinyl.  I chucked my old stereo years ago and had to buy a new turntable to play the album she gave me.  Of course, I'm now playing the vinyl albums I refused to throw out.  I did ditch my singles collection - apart from the Aunty Jack coloured record  :)

I also have the Auntie Jack 7” picture disc.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 06, 2022, 09:07:44 am
Im not sure if its the fact that people don't buy media anymore.

Vynil isn't rising its cds falling as Spotify and apple music take over.  Who wants to house a collection anymore?  A couple of years back, a friend of mine gave me all his DVDs.  With the invention of Netflix and co he doesn't need them anymore. 

It is what it is.  Vynil is still the djs plaything. 
My wife has some vinyl stashed somewhere.
She has an extensive CD collection to which i have contributed to as well
We both have a very large collection of DVDs as well.

Yet, we use spotify for our music, netflix, stan etc for our movies.
She wanted to show the kids the movie twister the other day and after 10 minutes looking for the DVD (we definitely have it somewhere) she opted to re-subscribe to Stan to see it  ::)

I can't remember the last time we physically put some kind of disc into a device.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on February 06, 2022, 09:28:13 am
It's always a changing scenario... and for some it's a case of moving (or not moving) with the technology.
The thing I find funny is the vinyl revival after we were told it was a thing of the past.
To each his own, but maybe don't be too quick to completely get rid of old material...(except maybe your Beta tapes.) ;D

I don't use Spotify.
In the last week I've played Vinyl, CD and Youtube for my music.

I do have subscriptions to a number of movie streaming services but I've also watched a couple of DVDs in the last few days.
My movie tastes are a bit like my music, and I like a lot of the older movies that just aren't available on the streams, so I'm always on the lookout for older DVDs.

I picked up a DVD copy of the '300 Spartans' through the week.
It's the Richard Egan (Leonidas) version and is a much better movie than that 300 crap with Gerard Butler.
But I digress...

Plex and Tubi are free subscription services that offer a good selection of those older movies and TV shows.
A lot of the material is B grade stuff but it brings back fond memories of the Saturday afternoon picture session. ;)  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 06, 2022, 09:39:05 am
I do have subscriptions to a number of movie streaming services but I've also watched a couple of DVDs in the last few days.
My movie tastes are a bit like my music, and I like a lot of the older movies that just aren't available on the streams, so I'm always on the lookout for older DVDs.
I have a lot of older movies on DVD.
I have the entire Hitchcock selection.
Everything Kubrick has ever done.
Some of the original horror movies from Nosferatu, Dracula, Wolf man etc etc

Still...i only seem to watch those same movies when i come across them on the streaming services.
I recently watched a few hitchock movies on Stan. Ditto Kubrick.

These are probably your more high profile older movies, which might be easier to find, but they are generally out there.
I watched an old 50's sci-fi one called the Magnetic Monster on stan a little while back which i hadn't seen before.
Depends what you are after.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on February 06, 2022, 09:42:16 am
I've started a new thread on Streaming...so we can return to the covid conversation.
One of the mods may like to move the last dozen or so posts across to there...or we can just continue here....

https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=5812.msg358532#new
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 10, 2022, 04:06:11 pm
Interesting article about Ivermectin:
‘You will not believe what I’ve just found.’ Inside the ivermectin saga: a hacked password, mysterious websites and faulty data, (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/you-will-not-believe-what-ive-just-found-inside-the-ivermectin-saga-a-hacked-password-mysterious-websites-and-faulty-data-11644240013) Market Watch.

I've never heard of Market Watch - it appears to be what you'd imagine, a stock market news site. As to why it has a long story on Ivermectin, I have no idea. The article itself seems to be well-written & informative.

Most of it has previously been covered by other articles. It summarises the research fraud that has been behind the Ivermectin push. But it takes the Ivermectin story a bit further with the following:

Quote
Edward Mills, a health-sciences professor at Canada’s McMaster University, is co-investigator of the Together clinical trial, another rigorous study that is evaluating nine different repurposed drugs as COVID-19 therapies, including ivermectin. It recently completed the ivermectin analysis but found it “did not demonstrate an important benefit,” Mills said in an email. The research may be published this month, he said.

Nevertheless, there is an idea circulating among scientists like Mills that ivermectin may be more likely to benefit COVID-19 patients in areas of the world with a high prevalence of parasitic worms. “What is possible is that co-infection of parasites with COVID may worsen health outcomes,” Mills said.

This is an idea also raised by Boulware, the scientist working on the University of Minnesota’s ivermectin study. Corticosteroids, like dexamethasone, are now considered the standard of care for severely ill COVID-19 patients; however, these drugs can cause what is called a “hyperinfection” and sometimes be fatal in a patient who has a parasitic infection. It’s possible that additional data about ivermectin gathered from different patient populations could show the drug being more beneficial in people who live in parasitic regions of the world, they say.

However, most native-born Americans don’t have parasites. And, since 2005, the U.S. policy has been to recommend that refugees from Africa, Asia, the Middle East, Latin America and the Caribbean receive treatment or presumptive antiparasitic treatment — including ivermectin — before arriving in the U.S.

“In certain patient populations, if you have a parasitic infection, it certainly can be beneficial if you’re giving steroids,” Boulware said. “Does that mean [as an] outpatient-setting early therapy in the U.S. that there’s a benefit? We don’t know that, and so I think that is an unknown question.”

For now, the healthcare professionals who have been put in the position of saying “no” to prescribing ivermectin are waiting for the data from the U.S. trials. Dr. Rani Sebti, an infectious-disease physician at Hackensack Meridian Health hospital system in New Jersey, says he’s been fielding calls from primary-care doctors in the U.S. and abroad about whether to prescribe ivermectin when patients ask for it.

“I cannot sit here and tell you ivermectin is the worst drug in the world,” he said. “I need to see a good prospective, double-blind, placebo-controlled study. And then when we get that study, it will answer the question for good.”

That Ivermectin might have a role to play in treating Covid patients who have parasitic infections either hasn't been raised in articles I've read before (or at least the point wasn't made clearly enough for me to appreciate it). It's a very interesting speculation about the interplay between steroids & Ivermectin. Of course, even if that speculation is correct, it does nothing to justify the hard-on Ivermectin shills have for treating patients In the USA & Australia where few patients would be affected by parasites.

It also reports that fairly conclusive evidence about Ivermectin's effectiveness will be published soon (quite apart from the 1st paragraph of the above quote which notes the Together trial found no important benefit from Covid):
Quote
Good data on ivermectin coming soon

Sometime this winter or early spring, a randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind trial sponsored by the National Institutes of Health that is testing ivermectin in 1,000 patients is expected to produce results, says Dr. Susanna Naggie, the vice dean for clinical research at Duke University’s medical school and the researcher running the trial.

The University of Minnesota’s randomized study has enrolled 1,196 participants, one-third of whom received ivermectin. (Both trials are evaluating several repurposed drugs as possible COVID-19 treatments.) Within the next few weeks, the Minnesota institution is expected to share the first findings from the ivermectin part of its trial, nearly two years after the first preprint examining ivermectin’s viability was published. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on February 10, 2022, 05:00:13 pm
Or you could look at the plethora of studies.....quoting Boulware? Laughable.

c19early.com

Just because you believe it doesn't work, doesn't make it so.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on February 10, 2022, 05:07:49 pm
Just because you believe it does work, doesn’t make it so…
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 10, 2022, 05:24:48 pm
Or you could look at the plethora of studies.....quoting Boulware? Laughable.

c19early.com

Just because you believe it doesn't work, doesn't make it so.
If you'd bothered to read the article, you'd have realised there was little point in trying to boost a bullshizen site:
Quote
A mysterious website

There’s one website often cited by ivermectin’s supporters: c19early.com. It’s got a clean, white layout and says it has pulled together “real-time analysis of 1,387 studies” for a wide-ranging list of potential COVID-19 therapies that can be used for early treatment, as of Feb. 7. It includes URLs like Ivmmeta.com and Hcqmeta.com.

No one I spoke with, including Kory, knows who runs the website. The website’s Twitter account has been suspended, and emails asking for information about who owns or operates the site were not returned. Some of the treatment protocols listed are provided by the FLCCC.

“It would be fascinating to know who’s behind such a massive effort,” Meyerowitz-Katz said. “It’s pseudoscientific nonsense, but it is also absolutely a huge effort.”

When I first dropped a sentence written several times on the site — “Elimination of COVID-19 is a race against viral evolution” — into Google, several websites with URLs that have nothing to do with COVID-19 or healthcare pop up with that description. Many of the top search results lead to online pages that have been moved or deleted, but one link redirects to a website selling Stromectol, the brand name for the form of ivermectin marketed by drug giant Merck to treat parasitic worms. That site, which says it is owned by Canadian Pharmacy Ltd., lists phone numbers in London and New York City. Both go directly to a generic voicemail.

Boulware, who is based in Minneapolis, said he messaged a website promoting ivermectin about a year ago, to see if it would accept his help with the medical information being put out. The site has some great charts, he said, but, in some cases, the data were not valid. When the responses to his emails were returned in the middle of the night, it made him wonder if the site’s operators were based in a foreign country. He speculated that maybe the website could be Russian disinformation or coming from a generic-drug maker in India trying to skirt FDA regulations.

“Those websites are a lot of effort. They’re really detailed,” Boulware said. “So it’s got to be either someone who has a lot of free time on their hands, or someone’s got a financial motivation or a political-disinformation motivation.”
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: flyboy77 on February 11, 2022, 07:55:39 pm
Just because you believe it does work, doesn’t make it so…

You lot (yes, I generalise, sorry to those who have an open mind) are such sheep.

You clearly read jack sh%t, yet think you know it all (the old cereal packet professor).

You really think Kory doesn't know because some dumb ass ignorant journo makes that statement? Not that that's a relevant question in any event.

And by the by, any of you read any of the studies linked therein? (i know the answer)

Are you suggesting they're fake or made up?

The data doesn't lie - and I note none of you actually critiques any of the papers referenced therein?

Typical lazy ad hominem carp.

Ivermectin is but one of many viable early treatments, and if those percentages don't whack you in the face and make you pay attention, our society really is doomed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 11, 2022, 09:42:22 pm
You lot (yes, I generalise, sorry to those who have an open mind) are such sheep.

You clearly read jack sh%t, yet think you know it all (the old cereal packet professor).

You really think Kory doesn't know because some dumb ass ignorant journo makes that statement? Not that that's a relevant question in any event.

And by the by, any of you read any of the studies linked therein? (i know the answer)

Are you suggesting they're fake or made up?

The data doesn't lie - and I note none of you actually critiques any of the papers referenced therein?

Typical lazy ad hominem carp.

Ivermectin is but one of many viable early treatments, and if those percentages don't whack you in the face and make you pay attention, our society really is doomed.

Lets assume what you say is true.

Why does 95% of the worlds population, including 99% of doctors disagree with you?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 11, 2022, 11:52:25 pm
Meta analysis into Sars-CoV-2 is obsolete, has been since late 2020. We don't need bogus duplication of fake reports from in vitro models when we have billions of viable and successful in situ inoculations to learn from!

The old tactic of presenting a copy of a duplicate of a replica of a fake as new is so passe mushroom grows on it, it's been cancelled like Trump's cure and Bolsonaro! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on February 12, 2022, 01:39:39 am
You lot (yes, I generalise, sorry to those who have an open mind) are such sheep.

You clearly read jack sh%t, yet think you know it all (the old cereal packet professor).

You really think Kory doesn't know because some dumb ass ignorant journo makes that statement? Not that that's a relevant question in any event.

And by the by, any of you read any of the studies linked therein? (i know the answer)

Are you suggesting they're fake or made up?

The data doesn't lie - and I note none of you actually critiques any of the papers referenced therein?

Typical lazy ad hominem carp.

Ivermectin is but one of many viable early treatments, and if those percentages don't whack you in the face and make you pay attention, our society really is doomed.

Problem is you’re so woke that you can’t think straight.
How’s your photocopier going ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 12, 2022, 01:13:25 pm
Saw a bloke down the supermarket that I haven't seen in quite a while so we stopped for a masked mid store up yack. Usual stuff, covid blah blah blah. I said the usual "Oh well, we are all vaccinated so we just get on with life now". He then proceeds to tell me he spent two weeks in ICU severely ill at xmas time. He suspects having contracted it from someone who visited his house that supposedly ill.
I asked if he was vaccinated at the time and he said "Nah, I've made stand against the government and refuse to".
Go job mate, nice stand, nearly cost you your life imbecile.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 13, 2022, 10:11:29 am
Nice article that discusses the hold the conspiracy theorists exert on individuals, and what level the nutters might be prepared to go to further their cause, and a lot of those nefarious actors are of course doing it for profit, T-Shirts, Badges, Posters, Manifestos, all for sale. I'm sure history has shown us this all before!

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/falling-into-the-freedom-movement-and-getting-out-20220104-p59lsl.html

It all starts with a simple anti-vaccination social media post, and from then on the true believers are blind.

Something to think about for those who read those posts, marvel at the absurdity, and then scroll on past without responding!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on February 13, 2022, 11:43:00 am
Nice article that discusses the hold the conspiracy theorists exert on individuals, and what level the nutters might be prepared to go to further their cause, and a lot of those nefarious actors are of course doing it for profit, T-Shirts, Badges, Posters, Manifestos, all for sale. I'm sure history has shown us this all before!

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/falling-into-the-freedom-movement-and-getting-out-20220104-p59lsl.html

It all starts with a simple anti-vaccination social media post, and from then on the true believers are blind.

Something to think about for those who read those posts, marvel at the absurdity, and then scroll on past without responding!

Ditto, Spotted One. Great article. Scratch the surface of most extremists/conspiracy theorists and you'll discover a disenfranchised/traumatized/wounded person looking for somewhere to 'belong' - one of our most basic instincts.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 13, 2022, 03:22:06 pm
And once they've found a place in the conspiracy movement, they know they'll lose everything if they leave. Like those leaving the Church of Scientology, they know they'll be shunned by those they'd befriended. For Ash Jackson, that was history repeating. Once she came out as Trans, she lost her friendships at her Church. It's hardly surprising that anti-vaxxers are willing to risk death to stay within the group, although you'd think little white lies would be in order: get vaxxed and tell everybody that you aren't.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on February 13, 2022, 04:23:15 pm
Don’t they bring out the spoons to check if you’ve been vaxxed…? 🙄
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 13, 2022, 04:59:26 pm
Don’t they bring out the spoons to check if you’ve been vaxxed…? 🙄
Nah, it's gone high tech these days, they use detector hats, because you glow under UV if you have been vaccinated!

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71dnuLjdfUS._AC_SL1500_.jpg)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 16, 2022, 01:21:09 pm
I wonder if Jack Darling's Mummy-In-Law knows that the MCG and Optus are 5G super-hubs?

Maybe he'll have to play games at those venues with his cohunes wrapped in tinfoil!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 16, 2022, 05:05:48 pm
Saw a bloke down the supermarket that I haven't seen in quite a while so we stopped for a masked mid store up yack. Usual stuff, covid blah blah blah. I said the usual "Oh well, we are all vaccinated so we just get on with life now". He then proceeds to tell me he spent two weeks in ICU severely ill at xmas time. He suspects having contracted it from someone who visited his house that supposedly ill.
I asked if he was vaccinated at the time and he said "Nah, I've made stand against the government and refuse to".
Go job mate, nice stand, nearly cost you your life imbecile.

The thing is that his stand puts at risk those who haven't yet been vaccinated (I mean children not Freedumbers) as well as those who can't have elective surgery or run the risk of COVID infection while in hospital with something else.  Then there's the toll on healthworkers.

Nice work bloke in the supermarket  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 16, 2022, 06:06:20 pm
60% of ICU patients have had two shots.

You need the booster now.

By the way I have covid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 16, 2022, 06:21:47 pm
The majority of people banging on about covid be it for or against, seem to spend most of their time convincing themselves of their chosen position.

I myself think that it has been blown way out of proportion to the risk, and understand why we have done everything we have until now, but its time to release the breaks.  The fact that we STILL cannot travel interstate freely is a bit of a joke.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on February 16, 2022, 07:00:06 pm
60% of ICU patients have had two shots.

You need the booster now.

By the way I have covid.

I hope you make a speedy recovery, BB.

So if 60% of those in ICU have had 2 jabs does that mean about 40% are unvaccinated, if so, when you consider about 7% of the population is unvaccinated, it suggests that the unvaccinated are disproportionately represented.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on February 16, 2022, 07:14:29 pm
60% of ICU patients have had two shots.

You need the booster now.

By the way I have covid.

Take care MBB and hopefully a quick recovery.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 16, 2022, 08:27:55 pm
Take care MBB and hopefully a quick recovery.


Touch wood I have zero symptoms but my 6 year old has had a fever for 3 days.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 16, 2022, 08:57:53 pm
60% of ICU patients have had two shots.

You need the booster now.

By the way I have covid.

It's not surprising that there's a high percentage of vaccinated folk in ICUs:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-03/how-to-interpret-omicron-covid-vaccination-rates-in-icu-hospital/100800114

Quite a few of my family members - unvaccinated children and vaccinated adults - have had COVID in the last month.  One toddler went to hospital with a very high temperature but most had mild symptoms and recovered quickly.

Let's hope your 6 year old gets over his fever soon.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 16, 2022, 09:00:10 pm
It's odd ... racing thru my town atm but I've been tested and all OK.  Luck of the draw.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 16, 2022, 10:14:45 pm
Luck of the draw will be interesting to examine in hindsight. Obviously, the absence of comorbidities is an advantage, but in years to come there will be more clarity about who won the genetic lottery so they were pretty well immune to Covid. Early on, there was speculation that some blood types had advantages. My son has been pinged as a close contact 3 times but hasn't caught it while his friends have. Who knows why.

There were even some people during the HIV/AIDS epidemic who were immune to it.

Hope you and your little tacker bounce back quickly MBB. Any illness involving our kids is bad but it's worse when there's uncertainty about how bad it might affect them. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 17, 2022, 11:59:21 am
My son actually tested negative to the nasal swabs provided by the school but positive to some oral ones we have.

He seems much better today which is day 4.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 17, 2022, 12:13:19 pm
Luck of the draw will be interesting to examine in hindsight. Obviously, the absence of comorbidities is an advantage, but in years to come there will be more clarity about who won the genetic lottery so they were pretty well immune to Covid.

My wife got it and is only now recovering ... hence the "luck" bit.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 17, 2022, 04:06:03 pm
Isn't it amazing how small the world really is for the peddlers of vaccine, wind farm and 5G and other conspiracies.

It turns out the same doctor who allegedly rallies against Wind Farms and 5G due to Electromagnetic Hypersensitivity Syndrome is on the cause of AFL players wanting to avoid vaccinations.

Guess what, the very same doctor is allegedly in the complimentary integrated medicine game, combine stuff like naturopathy and homeopathic treatment regimes with conventional medicine for a holistic approach. In lay terms, selling aspirin wrapped in snake-oil, or perhaps that is a $0.02 Ivermectin or $3.00 HCQ pill with an accompanying bioactive shake for $35.

Something tells me the doctors primary skill might be sniffing out a lucrative cause, write a cheap letter now, get a potential cut of a big settlement later, but if not it does confirm that he or his people have some great skills, self-promoting and marketing because he finds them all!

btw., Some of you won't be surprised to read that many of the local conspiracy (COVID, vax, gun lobby) websites are re-badged versions of the very same sites that were rolled out for Trump's election campaign. Just like Trump's staff for his Florida hotels it's all outsourced, this time from Bangladesh instead of Mexico! Apparently even the photographs of the website owners are fakes generated by an AI, sites making hundred$ or thousand$ of dollars a day in hits, and all run by 3rd world IT professionals for as little as $30/day! So it comes down to money again, profit over morality!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 17, 2022, 06:42:57 pm
My son actually tested negative to the nasal swabs provided by the school but positive to some oral ones we have.

He seems much better today which is day 4.
Good news.

I posted a couple weeks back (i think) that omicron was reported as being more easily detected via oral swabs. With other strains it was basically the opposite.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 19, 2022, 10:36:42 am
Looks like the AFL might be getting close to a return to normal. The Vic Govt is allowing full crowds & fortress WA has been breached meaning teams may be free to fly into & out of WA during the season.

The dark cloud overhead is the likelihood that winter will spike Covid infections.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 19, 2022, 12:10:59 pm
Looks like the AFL might be getting close to a return to normal. The Vic Govt is allowing full crowds & fortress WA has been breached meaning teams may be free to fly into & out of WA during the season.

The dark cloud overhead is the likelihood that winter will spike Covid infections.
It will be interesting to see what "Flying Freely in and out of WA" means, given the experience of visiting AFLW teams!

Seemingly, it's taken to the old Princes Park cold showers for visitors to a whole new level. The AFLW players made it sound like the visitor facilities basically had 50 people crammed into an unlit dungeon and crapping in a communal bucket!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 22, 2022, 02:04:32 pm
"Political affiliation should not be a factor in clinical treatment decisions."
https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/02/ivermectin-fails-another-covid-trial-as-study-links-use-to-gop-politics/

Oops I did it again!
(http://d279m997dpfwgl.cloudfront.net/wp/2019/09/AP_19266750139135-1000x667.jpg)

Yet another serious study shows nothing of use in Ivermectin dosing, which confirms earlier trials.

Earlier trials such as the large Malaysian trial.
Quote
Overall, the authors of the Malaysian trial conclude that, in their "randomized clinical trial of high-risk patients with mild to moderate COVID-19, ivermectin treatment during early illness did not prevent progression to severe disease. The study findings do not support the use of ivermectin for patients with COVID-19."

Some of you with a darker sense of humour may quip about "Trump killing off his support!"
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 22, 2022, 10:52:36 pm
Uk pulling all covid restrictions a month earlier than anticipated.

Green light for normality resumed. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 22, 2022, 11:16:10 pm
I was interested to see how Flyboy's favourite site c19early.com handled the bad news of these randomised trials. I looked at how it dealt with the earlier Malaysian randomised trial conducted by Lim et al. abstracted HERE (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35179551/)
Quote
Main outcomes and measures: The primary outcome was the proportion of patients who progressed to severe disease, defined as the hypoxic stage requiring supplemental oxygen to maintain pulse oximetry oxygen saturation of 95% or higher. Secondary outcomes of the trial included the rates of mechanical ventilation, intensive care unit admission, 28-day in-hospital mortality, and adverse events.

Results: Among 490 patients included in the primary analysis (mean [SD] age, 62.5 [8.7] years; 267 women [54.5%]), 52 of 241 patients (21.6%) in the ivermectin group and 43 of 249 patients (17.3%) in the control group progressed to severe disease (relative risk [RR], 1.25; 95% CI, 0.87-1.80; P = .25). For all prespecified secondary outcomes, there were no significant differences between groups. Mechanical ventilation occurred in 4 (1.7%) vs 10 (4.0%) (RR, 0.41; 95% CI, 0.13-1.30; P = .17), intensive care unit admission in 6 (2.4%) vs 8 (3.2%) (RR, 0.78; 95% CI, 0.27-2.20; P = .79), and 28-day in-hospital death in 3 (1.2%) vs 10 (4.0%) (RR, 0.31; 95% CI, 0.09-1.11; P = .09). The most common adverse event reported was diarrhea (14 [5.8%] in the ivermectin group and 4 [1.6%] in the control group).

Conclusions and relevance: In this randomized clinical trial of high-risk patients with mild to moderate COVID-19, ivermectin treatment during early illness did not prevent progression to severe disease. The study findings do not support the use of ivermectin for patients with COVID-19.

It is widely regarded as debunking ivermectin as a treatment for Covid, but the anonymous author simply decided to ignore the statistical analysis that "For all prespecified secondary outcomes, there were no significant differences between groups" and assert that the study proved that Ivermectin reduced mortality by 69% to 75%. S/he claimed "The mortality reduction is consistent with the results from all trials to date. While not reaching the significance threshold with the specified test, Bayesian analysis shows a 97% probability that ivermectin reduces mortality". S/he concluded that this "equate(s) to ~4 million lives saved if adopted at the start of the pandemic.:  https://c19ivermectin.com/lim.html#rn0 (https://c19ivermectin.com/lim.html#rn0)

Apparently, the anonymous author felt s/he was able to apply statistical polyfilla that allowed him/her to draw such conclusions as well as a dark inference that there was "substantial investigator bias with a preference for a null result". That's despite the study being peer reviewed.

It seems that the anonymous site is the equivalent of the Black Knight claiming "It's only a flesh wound" in response to mortal blows. If that's the way the site manipulates studies that are clearly contrary to its support of ivermectin, it can't be taken seriously. 

At some point, I'll look at how it has dealt with the retractions of fraudulent and improper studies & papers and whether it has noted the cautions added to metastudies based in part on them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 22, 2022, 11:22:12 pm
Uk pulling all covid restrictions a month earlier than anticipated.

Green light for normality resumed. 

The UK "duel fuel" increases (eff April) will wake up the masses .... up 54% or an annual bill of $4000 AUD.

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 23, 2022, 10:03:10 am
The c19early.com site includes the withdrawn Elgazzar study that allegedly considered 200 patients, but it does note that it has been withdrawn. Does that mean it's conclusions are no longer part of the mashup offered by the site regarding Ivermectin? Who can say?

However, the site also lists a meta-analysis by Bryant et al. which did include the Elgazzar study. There's no mention made in the details offered for that analysis that this is at this is now a highly controversial analysis given that the Elgazzar study's alleged 200 patients and amazingly supportive conclusions would have had a large impact on the meta-analysis. Bryant is fighting a rearguard action to defend his paper by saying Elgazzar still stands behind the validity of his study and excluding it from the meta-analysis wouldn't make much of a difference. But many call BS on that.

In any event, a site that doesn't note that controversy and exclude the results of the meta-analysis pending a final determination of the claims of Bryant and Elgazzar isn't worth the paper it's not written on.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 23, 2022, 10:33:22 am
Interesting to see how that site treated the Together trial published on 6/8/2021 which was conducted in Brazil and supervised by McMaster University, Canada.

The "data" from the trial which presumably is fed into the site's mashup showed an 18% improvement in mortality and a 9% improvement in extended ER observations. You'd imagine that such results would be celebrated but instead the site devotes screenfuls of takedowns to prove that the study is corrupt and untrue. It's almost as if the trial actually concluded that Ivermectin was useless.

And indeed the trial concluded that ivermectin showed “no effect whatsoever” on the trial’s outcome goals — whether patients required extended observation in the emergency room or hospitalization.

How can adverse studies be included in the site's "meta-analysis" as positive ones? Amazing ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 23, 2022, 01:04:24 pm
How can adverse studies be included in the site's "meta-analysis" as positive ones? Amazing ...
At this stage all meta analysis is redundant in regards to COVID, we've millions of global physical cases to use and no longer need to extrapolate obscure results from aggregating smaller studies especially smaller meta analysis studies.

In any case, there are serious questions of validity whenever meta analysis aggregates meta analysis, many say that is invalid by default.

Meta analysis is supposed to aggregate smaller physical studies, field trials, in situ, lab in vitro, etc., etc., to simulate a bigger/broader physical trail, not an aggregation of other meta analysis. In effect meta analysis of meta analysis is like a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy.

Even worse, many of the meta analysis in the aggregation refer to the same fault physical trials. It's like using footage of one single car accident to explain every car accident that ever happened.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 24, 2022, 11:34:02 pm
Clive Palmer is in hospital with COVID.  I know that you’re not supposed to take pleasure in other folk’s suffering, but stuff it; the kent deserves all he gets.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on February 25, 2022, 08:23:48 am
Clive Palmer is in hospital with COVID.  I know that you’re not supposed to take pleasure in other folk’s suffering, but stuff it; the kent deserves all he gets.

And for spamming my Mobi !!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 25, 2022, 12:45:00 pm
Clive Palmer is in hospital with COVID.  I know that you’re not supposed to take pleasure in other folk’s suffering, but stuff it; the kent deserves all he gets.
Yes, it's not good for anybody, especially older and overweight.

But it is another knife in the COVID is just the flu brigade, and ironically at least at one stage I believe Palmer was one advocating an open up and let it rip policy.

He's loaded, surely he can just buy a batch of Trump's or Rogan's miracle cure and get straight back to work like it's a sniffle!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 25, 2022, 01:07:47 pm
With Omicron having a wide impact I'm noticing a lot of people returning to work with persistent coughs, and what I might describe as mental fogginess, lethargy / fatigue, etc., etc..

The mental fogginess might well be a result of the cough, with potential poor sleep patterns as a result, it could be slightly reduce oxygen levels if lungs are at reduced capacity. Some of their doctors are advising them that these symptoms might persist for up to 3 months after the infection.

So much for a bit of a sniffle, I can't say I've ever had a cold that still affects me weeks or months later!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 25, 2022, 01:18:58 pm
For me it was a minor sore throat and headache.
My wife the same.
6 year old had a temperature for 3 days.
5 year old had a temperature for 1 day.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 25, 2022, 01:29:44 pm
For me it was a minor sore throat and headache.
My wife the same.
6 year old had a temperature for 3 days.
5 year old had a temperature for 1 day.
Yes I appreciate it is different for different people. One person at work had four out of five family members in the house get it, one never got it at all, while another spent one night in hospital on oxygen.
 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 25, 2022, 04:35:10 pm
My nephew and his brother in law (niece’s husband) both got the Delta strain at the end of November (in the Bendigo JB HiFi apparently).  Both were double-vaxxed.  My nephew felt tired and lethargic for a couple of days, my niece’s husband had a high temperature and had aches and pains for a week.  Neither have any long-lasting symptoms.

Our local greengrocer got the Omicron strain in January and was very sick for a couple of days and felt the after effects for a couple of weeks.  Family members who have also had Omicron (daughter, son in law, grandchildren, niece, etc) were just a little off colour for a day or two.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 25, 2022, 04:41:48 pm
Our local greengrocer got the Omicron strain in January and was very sick for a couple of days and felt the after effects for a couple of weeks.  Family members who have also had Omicron (daughter, son in law, grandchildren, niece, etc) were just a little off colour for a day or two.
This seems to be a very common pattern.

There is a still a bit of argy bargy going around in relation to why, various answers related to genetics and blood types, but I suspect that is an oversimplified argument.

FWIW, there were preliminary reports they had pegged the why for the initial strain, but both delta and Omicron proved them wrong.

The pandemic seems to dynamically attract quack assessments and sweeping conclusions, so you just know anytime someone comes out with a definitive answer it's going to bite them on the ar5e!

The current one seems to be a political declaration that "We are achieving endemicity", which is being used as a hashed together and misused proxy for herd immunity, but the virus becoming endemic means nothing of the sort. Just because it might now be endemic, doesn't mean it is benign, Malaria, Tuberculosis, Anthrax and Polio are endemic!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 25, 2022, 05:24:03 pm
Clive Palmer is in hospital with COVID.  I know that you’re not supposed to take pleasure in other folk’s suffering, but stuff it; the kent deserves all he gets.
Sorry DJ but that's an ordinary thing to say about a fellow Australian I'm afraid no matter what side of the political fence one sits.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on February 25, 2022, 07:11:03 pm
Sorry DJ but that's an ordinary thing to say about a fellow Australian I'm afraid no matter what side of the political fence one sits.

Sorry, it’s got nothing to do with political fences.
The guy is a degerative arsewipe of the highest caliber.
On his public face at least, he possesses zero positive moral and ethical values, whilst it is possible he could have some behind closed doors, I doubt it…
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on February 25, 2022, 10:47:54 pm
Sorry DJ but that's an ordinary thing to say about a fellow Australian I'm afraid no matter what side of the political fence one sits.

Nothing to do with his politics G2C; it's about his ongoing campaign to discourage vaccination and fight other measures put in place by governments of both persuasions to minimise the impact of COVID.  I think it's called karma.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on February 26, 2022, 10:30:26 am
Nothing to do with his politics G2C; it's about his ongoing campaign to discourage vaccination and fight other measures put in place by governments of both persuasions to minimise the impact of COVID.  I think it's called karma.



Although I wouldn't wish harm upon Palmer, I find his actions and in particular his divisiveness quite reprehensible - and UnAustralian. He's not a team player. Well over 90% of Aussies have shown themselves to be team players through Covid, its a most impressive and unique characteristic of the Aussie culture.

It will be difficult for Palmer to garner sympathy for his present struggle as most folks see him as nothing more than a self-interested (narcissistic?) yobbo with too much money, and his struggles may well be of his own making.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 26, 2022, 10:52:15 am
Anybody who tries to whip up support amongst anti-vaxxers/maskers/mandates/lockdowners, plays footsie with guys like Kelly & Christensen, and then tries to hide a Covid diagnosis when he catches Covid is the lowest form of scum. If he'd been open about it and addressed its ramifications, maybe there might have been some redemption for him. Fair dinkum, even Trump took the vaccine and the booster and tried to persuade his followers to do the same despite earlier treating it as a hoax and pushing HCQ as a miracle cure. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 26, 2022, 11:02:13 am
Fair dinkum, even Trump took the vaccine and the booster and tried to persuade his followers to do the same .................
I'm not sure that makes him better or smarter, maybe Trump was motivated in just the same way as Palmer, and could see his support literally dying off!

I really do not get how someone smart enough to become a billionaire can be so stupid, so therefore it must be wilful deception of their followers and that leaves them as the lowest of the low. I doubt either is better than the other!

It all reminds me a bit of the Orange people and Rajineesh, the primary difference is the business suits!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 26, 2022, 11:23:00 am
Trump actually went out over his skis when he told his followers at a rally they should get the vaccine and the booster like he did. They booed him and he backed off quickly and told them it was a personal choice and everybody should do as they wanted. This was a demonstration of what George Conway from the Lincoln Project noted about Trump's relationship with his followers: he was so successful because he was able to understand what they felt and he just reflected that back to them. He was a lightning rod for disaffection rather than a leader who is capable of persuading them to change their thinking. The vaccine "misstep" was a rare example of Trump misunderstanding what his followers felt. (That's not to say he was blameless in creating that attitude - he got that bandwagon rolling with his assertions about hoaxes and the like, but once it gathered momentum he was incapable of changing its course).

Here's another reason to vaccinate in order to minimise the damage Covid might do to us:

Can COVID make your dick shrink?, abc.net.au (https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/the-hook-up/covid-dick-can-your-dick-shrink-erectile-dysfunction/13767550)

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 26, 2022, 11:26:13 am
And just when were the covid vaccines developed and introduced in the U.S.?  December 2020.  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 26, 2022, 11:34:13 am
Your point being ... ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 26, 2022, 01:10:22 pm
Nothing to do with his politics G2C; it's about his ongoing campaign to discourage vaccination and fight other measures put in place by governments of both persuasions to minimise the impact of COVID.  I think it's called karma.



Karma was Dan Andrews falling down the stairs.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 26, 2022, 01:45:52 pm
Your point being ... ?

That Trump was in his last year of the presidency ... isn't that obvious ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 26, 2022, 03:35:19 pm
Karma was Dan Andrews falling down the stairs.
Was Karma the name of the bloke that pushed him?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 26, 2022, 05:03:02 pm
That Trump was in his last year of the presidency ... isn't that obvious ?
Your point being?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 27, 2022, 12:48:22 pm
Coronavirus came from Wuhan market and not Chinese lab, twin studies say, The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/26/coronavirus-wuhan-market-chinese-lab-studies)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 27, 2022, 01:42:13 pm
No proof of that claim whatsoever.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 27, 2022, 03:08:51 pm
I guess non-conspiracy theories are held to a higher standard than conspiracy theories. After all, the absence of evidence in support of a conspiracy theory is proof that it's true, because the conspiracy is designed to suppress that proof.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 27, 2022, 03:16:31 pm
After all, the absence of evidence in support of a conspiracy theory is proof that it's true,
How could it be any other way!

btw., Did we ever start a "Climate change, Andrew Bolt Queensland floods" thread?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 27, 2022, 08:12:05 pm
No proof of that claim whatsoever.
Any proof of any alternative?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on February 27, 2022, 09:21:54 pm
Any proof of any alternative?

There’s this video on YouTube… 🙄
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 27, 2022, 09:59:35 pm
There’s this video on YouTube… 🙄
Is that the one with the guys wearing camo and talking really loud and missing teeth?

Or the guys wearing 'make america great again' hats and joe rogan t-shirts?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 27, 2022, 10:10:36 pm
Any proof of any alternative?

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/02/26/science/covid-virus-wuhan-origins.html?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20220226&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=cta&regi_id=70059035&segment_id=84084&user_id=40608e3f7e716b627f2eb1551778d56d

Read ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 27, 2022, 11:23:36 pm
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/02/26/science/covid-virus-wuhan-origins.html?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20220226&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=cta&regi_id=70059035&segment_id=84084&user_id=40608e3f7e716b627f2eb1551778d56d

Read ...
Read.
“I think what they’re arguing could be true,” Dr. Bloom said of the new studies. “But I don’t think the quality of the data is sufficient to say that any of these scenarios are true with confidence.”

'Quality of data means they can't be sure.'
Does not mean it was released there from a lab.

If that's a you've got, I pity you.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on February 28, 2022, 06:13:22 am
Read.
“I think what they’re arguing could be true,” Dr. Bloom said of the new studies. “But I don’t think the quality of the data is sufficient to say that any of these scenarios are true with confidence.”

'Quality of data means they can't be sure.'
Does not mean it was released there from a lab.

If that's a you've got, I pity you.

If that's your conclusion so be it.  All from people with no peer reviewed papers on their work, and a secretive lab to which they have no access .. in short, they don't know and you sure as hell don't.  But carry on.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on February 28, 2022, 07:45:51 am
🤣
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 28, 2022, 08:01:46 am
............... and a secretive lab to which they have no access ..
That's not quite true, there were even a number of Australian's in that Wuhan Lab at the time, they are now back in Australia and have largely been ignored by mainstream and social media. I believe there were even Americans and Canadians working in the Wuhan lab at the time.

As I understand the Wuhan lab is like a twin of the Geelong facility, part of a set of watchdogs labs spread around the globe that monitor for this very thing. They are staffed with both local and foreign researchers under a UN agreement.

Blaming that lab is a bit like blaming the bloodhound for the body it finds!

You should be more worried about the gain of function research proposals that were rejected by the Wuhan administration, what happened to the people that made those proposals, and where did they go to next looking for funding?

An aside; I've visited analogous facilities for nanotechnology development, there is one wright here in Melbourne built with the assisted expertise of the people who built Geelong, they are very similar to a biosecurity / pathogen lab in that they are ultraclean containment workspaces. There are no opaque walls or places to hide research, the whole building is eerie double glazed glass walls with negative down drafts and manage pressure differentials everywhere. More like a weird all glass James Bond movie lab than secure compartments. Whatever floor you are on you can see pretty much everybody excluding some big bits of kit hiding people away like giant microscopes, fridges, ovens, monitors, etc., etc.. Even if some facility needs a solid wall they have viewing portholes. The facility is deliberately designed that way and everybody is vigilant because someone else's mistake can destroy years of your own work or put you at risk. These are the cleanest least secretive places on earth, people(the public) do not get to see in them because we are basically walking piles of portable filth!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 28, 2022, 07:58:27 pm
If that's your conclusion so be it.  All from people with no peer reviewed papers on their work, and a secretive lab to which they have no access .. in short, they don't know and you sure as hell don't.  But carry on.


That is my conclusion.

Its also the conclusion of the guy you wanted everyone to read. Not sure why you can't see that.

To bring this back to footy for a second.

What he is saying, is that based on the shots on goal, the distances of the balls kicked around the ground, it can not be determined that there was a breeze blowing to one end of the ground. There may very well have been a breeze, but there is not enough data to say so with certainty.
People there felt a breeze.
People predicted a breeze prior to the game.
If there was a breeze, it would result in data basically the same as that.
Evidence can not prove there was not a breeze.

But....we can not be 100% sure there was a breeze based on the data alone.

What you are reading from that is.....that there was no footy and it was actually a monster truck rally....and it was in a dome.

How and why you get to that conclusion based on the above information is anybodys guess, but thats something only you can answer.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on March 01, 2022, 03:34:35 pm
Ahh - it's our turn.

Our boy (10) tested -ve on a RAT before school yesterday.  Got home, looked like crap.  Had a temp of 39, tested again and +ve.

Looks like he is following the pattern of other kids that we know who got it, so he should be OK in a couple of days.

Fever is down to the low 38s, but we all have to isolate for the week and hope that we don't take it in turns to test positive.

No idea where he got it from - there are quite a few options!

Had to let his cricket team know (I'm the coach), make arrangements for training, match, after match mini celebration for the end of the season, work out what to do for the fathers'/son game on Sunday and he gets to miss the presentation day as well.  Had to let his tennis team know as well - as well as opposition for both sports.  Then there is the school run around, and friends who he mucked around with on the weekend.  After that is the other extra curricular activities for both of them as well to advise that they won't be attending this week.

After doing the school stuff (the better half did this), we have been contacted by the council's health service, who were pretty friendly and just going over things.  We get to do a daily check in with them.

Then there's all our stuff - cancelled planned client visits, couple of medical appointments, planning day on Sat for a client etc.  Letting all the extracurricular activities know.  I think doing this you realise sometimes how much goes on in our lives, 

Hopefully, he is the only one that will get Covid, however, if we are all to get it, hopefully it is close to within a week of each other.  Worst case scenario is that we get it one week at a time and our daughter (6) is the last one - so she would have to isolate for 4 weeks.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 01, 2022, 03:55:14 pm
Ahh - it's our turn.

Our boy (10) tested -ve on a RAT before school yesterday.  Got home, looked like crap.  Had a temp of 39, tested again and +ve.
Sorry to hear that Dodge, I hope he is all clear and you're good to go ASAP.

As mild as Omicron can be it's still a massive inconvenience and worth taking seriously just in case.

It's a weird situation here, this time of year weather changing we see people getting sore throats and sniffles from the usual aircon on / aircon off cycles you get in office buildings. It's incredibly disruptive now because in the past you just took it for granted, now it's stay home get a test, come in get a sore throat, stay home get a test, rinse and repeat, people can't make any assumptions anymore because they just know if they do they might be shizen out of luck! Must be even worse around schools.

In the middle of all this, after all that time locking down and doing the right thing, it's masks off which feels a bit premature!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 01, 2022, 04:30:39 pm
Sorry to hear that, Dodge. It's a bit of a conundrum, Apparently, Pfizer's vaccine for kids doesn't do much for them. It does help reduce the severity of symptoms but the protection only lasts for about 1 month! How can you stop Covid circulating amongst kids at school?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on March 01, 2022, 04:42:57 pm
It's more a PITA then anything.  He is particularly shattered about missing all the cricket stuff this weekend.  The kids' school has been lucky - it's not very big (~300), but less than 20 cases.  Other bigger schools around us have had up to 25% staff and students away - that's disruptive.

We're (again) very lucky - we get free RATs from school for the kids and both our sets of parents get a free box a month being elderly - some have been passed on to us.  Not what the system was designed for, but we won't say no.

One lesson is that if there is a +ve RAT and you're not convinced, ignore it and get a PCR.  We've had friends get a false +ve RAT and report it, then tell their school that the PCR has come back -ve.  Bad luck.  The schools have to go by what was originally reported.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 01, 2022, 07:46:42 pm
The accuracy of tests has to be considered alongside how rare (or otherwise) an illness is.

A common problem in probability classes is as follows:
Quote
A test for a certain rare disease is assumed to be correct 95% of the time: if a person has the disease, the test result is +ve with a probability of 0.95  & if the person doesn't have the disease the test result is negative with probability 0.95. A person drawn at random from a certain population has a 0.1% chance of having the disease.

Q. What's the probability that a random person who tests positive actually has the disease?
Due to the vagaries of conditional probability, the answer is surprisingly 0.01866 (1.866%). You'd think a test that's 95% would translate to a 95% chance of a correct positive, wouldn't you?

Of course, the chance of a random person having Covid is higher than 0.1% given that around 0.1% of the Victorian population are reported as new daily cases.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 02, 2022, 09:12:04 am
Jim Jordan promises to "investigate" Dr. Fauci if GOP retakes the House this year, Salon. (https://www.salon.com/2022/03/01/jim-jordan-promises-to-investigate-dr-fauci-if-retakes-the-this-year/)

For conspiracy theorists, the "Lab Leak Theory" is just like the door-to-door salesman's foot in the door: it's not the objective - it's only a means to an end. In this case, the end is to blame those who are battling Covid with creating it and handing it to the Chinese as a bio-weapon.

Quote
At the center of this theory is the allegation that the National Institutes of Health (NIH) at one point provided a grant to the Wuhan Institute of Virology for "gain-of-function" research, a process in which a virus is genetically altered in order to anticipate ways it may mutate in the future. Supporters of the lab leak theory contend, by that logic, that the coronavirus which causes COVID-19 is a man-made "supervirus," generated in a lab, whose origins have been covered up by leading health officials, including Fauci.

According to the Washington Post, there is no clear evidence that the NIH funded any such research. Furthermore, most scientists have concluded that the lab leak theory is unlikely, although it cannot entirely be ruled out. The dearth of evidence for the claim hasn't stopped conservatives from repeatedly accusing Fauci of masterminding the pandemic.

...

On Sunday, the New York Times cited two extensive new studies backing the idea that COVID-19 originated from a live animal market in Wuhan, China. This was largely the consensus earlier into the pandemic.

Jordan appeared unconvinced, writing of the report this week: "These aren't new facts or new studies. This 'new' info is from the same crew that told Fauci it came from a lab but suspiciously changed their tune and were rewarded with a 9 million dollar grant."

According to the Times, the two novel studies have been verified by multiple independent experts, which renders the lab leak increasingly unlikely.

"When you look at all of the evidence together, it's an extraordinarily clear picture that the pandemic started at the Huanan market," said Michael Worobey, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Arizona.

Yes, the fact the Chinese blocked an international investigation into the outbreak adds fuel to the conspiracy. But let's face it, the reflex of the Chinese is to deny & control the story. I'd imagine stray comments about who farted in the lift would see the loose lips sent off for "re-education", let alone more substantial criticisms (e.g. Peng Shuai).
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 02, 2022, 09:47:41 am
But let's face it, the reflex of the Chinese is to deny & control the story. I'd imagine stray comments about who farted in the lift would see the loose lips sent off for "re-education", let alone more substantial criticisms (e.g. Peng Shuai).
I've seen first-hand a young woman detained simply because she walked into the line of an "official" as they got out of a car, not actually making contact or colliding, just got in the way because she was focussed on her phone while walking down Hengshan Rd. If she had paused and dipped her head like the other locals she would have been allowed to to go on her way!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 02, 2022, 09:51:05 am
I heard a podcast yesterday, the former author, flat earther and anti-vaxer and COVID conspiracist Rob Skiba died last year from COVID.

A sad end to a parasite who basically profited from selling conspiracy theory books to gullible people, well at least we can't accuse him of not walking the walk!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 02, 2022, 02:03:00 pm
Here's a very good (and long) article in Scientific American regarding the Lab Leak Theory: The Lab-Leak Hypothesis Made It Harder for Scientists to Seek the Truth (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-lab-leak-hypothesis-made-it-harder-for-scientists-to-seek-the-truth/).

It articulated quite nicely a process it called "conspiratorial cognition":
Quote
In normal scientific inquiry, as evidence emerges, the remaining space for plausible hypotheses narrows. Some facets continue to be supported, and others are contradicted and eventually precluded altogether. Some of the strongest advocates for a lab origin for SARS-CoV-2 changed their views as they learned more. Baltimore, for instance, withdrew his “smoking gun” comment when challenged by additional evidence, conceding that a natural origin was also possible. Revising or rejecting failed hypotheses in light of refuting evidence is central to the scientific process. Not so with conspiracy theories and pseudoscience. One of their hallmarks is that they are self-sealing: as more evidence against the conspiracy emerges, adherents keep the theory alive by dismissing contrary evidence as further proof of the conspiracy, creating an ever more elaborate and complicated theory.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 02, 2022, 05:53:00 pm
There is a comprehensive article in Nature too, "The COVID lab-leak hypothesis: what scientists do and don’t know".  It dates to June but still provides a good overview of the various hypotheses:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01529-3

Quote
Another feature of SARS-CoV-2 that has drawn attention is a combination of nucleotides that underlie a segment of the furin cleavage site: CGG (these encode the amino acid arginine). A Medium article that speculates on a lab origin for SARS-CoV-2 quotes David Baltimore, a Nobel laureate and professor emeritus at the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, as saying that viruses don’t usually have that particular code for arginine, but humans often do — a “smoking gun”, hinting that researchers might have tampered with SARS-CoV-2’s genome.

Andersen says that Baltimore was incorrect about that detail, however. In SARS-CoV-2, about 3% of the nucleotides encoding arginine are CGG, he says. And he points out that around 5% of those encoding arginine in the virus that caused the original SARS epidemic are CGG, too. In an e-mail to Nature, Baltimore says Andersen could be correct that evolution produced SARS-CoV-2, but adds that “there are other possibilities and they need careful consideration, which is all I meant to be saying”.

The article concludes:

Quote
As Biden's investigation commences and the WHO considers the next phase in its origin study, pandemic experts are bracing themselves for a long road ahead. “We want an answer,” says Jason Kindrachuk, a virologist at the University of Manitoba in Winnipeg, Canada. “But we may have to keep piecing bits of evidence together as weeks and months and years move forward.”





Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 03, 2022, 09:16:45 am
And we'll pass the 6 million mark of global deaths by Saturday ... if we haven't already.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 03, 2022, 11:04:41 am
And we'll pass the 6 million mark of global deaths by Saturday ... if we haven't already.
There was a epidemiologist on the BBC last week who stated most experts already accept the official reported figure is likely to be only 40% of the real world figure, because some regions notoriously only report figures from major population cities but on the ground authorities know the regional areas are suffering worse outcomes because of the lack of resources! Apparently there are some regions that for either political or resource reasons still do not report Sars-CoV-2 deaths at all, the figures we read are just statistical modelling.

I think that Dr Campbell in his vlog had a rant about this a few weeks back, and why we need to be careful about official figures. Of course sceptics straight away cried out misrepresenting his warning as being about "exaggeration of deaths", when in fact the point he made was the exact opposite and about under-reporting in 3rd world locations, we cannot extrapolate what happens in London or Melbourne as typical for 3rd world locations, the models based on western cities that bristle with health clinics and hospitals are not valid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 03, 2022, 11:57:41 am
There was a epidemiologist on the BBC last week who stated most experts already accept the official reported figure is likely to be only 40% of the real world figure, because some regions notoriously only report figures from major population cities but on the ground authorities know the regional areas are suffering worse outcomes because of the lack of resources! Apparently there are some regions that for either political or resource reasons still do not report Sars-CoV-2 deaths at all, the figures we read are just statistical modelling.

I think that Dr Campbell in his vlog had a rant about this a few weeks back, and why we need to be careful about official figures. Of course sceptics straight away cried out misrepresenting his warning as being about "exaggeration of deaths", when in fact the point he made was the exact opposite and about under-reporting in 3rd world locations, we cannot extrapolate what happens in London or Melbourne as typical for 3rd world locations, the models based on western cities that bristle with health clinics and hospitals are not valid.

A point from an article on excess mortality:

Quote
First, not all countries have the infrastructure and capacity to register and report all deaths. In richer countries with high-quality mortality reporting systems, nearly 100% of deaths are registered. But in many low- and middle-income countries, undercounting of mortality is a serious issue. The UN estimates that, in “normal” times, only two-thirds of countries register at least 90% of all deaths that occur, and some countries register less than 50% — or even under 10% — of deaths. During the pandemic the actual coverage might be even lower.

I understand that the "6 million mark" is based on reported deaths so it's got to be a gross under-estimate of actual COVID deaths ... and we still have COVID-deniers  :(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 03, 2022, 12:02:48 pm
Covid has been the most lethal hoax in history.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 03, 2022, 12:26:10 pm
A point from an article on excess mortality:

I understand that the "6 million mark" is based on reported deaths so it's got to be a gross under-estimate of actual COVID deaths ... and we still have COVID-deniers  :(
Yep, I think the point that BBC broadcast was trying to make was that people should not be surprised to find that in a decade or so the real toll, that is the count, triples current estimates.

I suppose this doesn't sit well with some, if they want to deny COVID, or if they want to paint a picture of how badly local authorities have done, you would use the lowest international estimate. In reality, our lockdowns have largely worked, as do the vaccines. Shock, horror! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 08, 2022, 12:20:20 pm
Yet another pandemic / lockdown side-effect, the cats out of the bag!

https://www.theage.com.au/national/gonorrhoea-epidemic-hits-citys-outer-suburbs-20220302-p5a0vv.html

Everybody is back on the job! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 08, 2022, 01:28:54 pm
Some things we'll never cure save for living like a Trappist monk ... a weird world we live in
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 08, 2022, 04:27:02 pm
Covid is effectively over.  Any concerns over it are well and truly masked by goings on in the ukraine, and the sooner we get rid of masks and get on with it the better.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 08, 2022, 05:03:46 pm
Covid is effectively over.  Any concerns over it are well and truly masked by goings on in the ukraine, and the sooner we get rid of masks and get on with it the better.
I'll defer a call on the pandemic being over at least until Oct 2022.

The experts (epidemiologists and virologists) seem a bit 50/50.

The West seems overly optimistic, and is largely ignoring the unvaccinated state of Africa, until it's over for everyone many experts say it is not over for anyone. We've already seen the disruption boarder closures and the like can do, globally, regardless of what and which region triggers them!

Also, I had a long conversation with my GP a couple of days back, he is dreading the coming Flu season, they don't even have a clue of a Flu vaccine direction yet and we are normally getting jabbed in April. His big worry is a new variant or dwindling resistance to COVID combined with the Flu.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 08, 2022, 05:10:52 pm
Covid is effectively over.  Any concerns over it are well and truly masked by goings on in the ukraine, and the sooner we get rid of masks and get on with it the better.

Tell that to the dimwit in W.A.  But it has dramatically subsided internationally, I agree Thry.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on March 08, 2022, 05:38:48 pm
Maybe in a macro sense, Thry.  Not so for those who are still catching it and having to isolate.  While it generally seems to knock people around for a few days,  the family isolation part is really hard for many. (Often followed by glad we've had it now).

Plenty of elderly are being cautious.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 08, 2022, 05:57:51 pm
Maybe in a macro sense, Thry.  Not so for those who are still catching it and having to isolate.  While it generally seems to knock people around for a few days,  the family isolation part is really hard for many. (Often followed by glad we've had it now).

Plenty of elderly are being cautious.


Yep. Mrs Baggers and I were isolating a coupla weeks back with Covid.

Symptoms were mild for a few days with the worst bit being the lethargy. For me there was no real sore throat or cough and usually with flu's I get a shocker of a sore throat - swallowing red hot razor blades kind of hurt, but with Covid just a very mild croakiness. Guess the triple vaxx prevented more severe symptoms. But it does linger after the worst has gone.

My GP was candid in admitting that the medical fraternity is still learning about Covid and its on-going/lingering effects. I got an outbreak of hives (Urticaria) when it seemed to have gone, but Zyrtec got rid of them after a few days. I suspect the 'Covid fat lady' hasn't tuned up her vocal cords just yet.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on March 08, 2022, 07:09:11 pm
We're getting it one at a time.   I have just about finished my week.   Didn't eat for three days - razor blades were too much.   The amount of phlegm I've coughed up is too much!  Other than that it has been a bad head cold experience. Coming good now.

Mrs +ve today.   Well see how she goes...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 08, 2022, 09:55:06 pm
Maybe in a macro sense, Thry.  Not so for those who are still catching it and having to isolate.  While it generally seems to knock people around for a few days,  the family isolation part is really hard for many. (Often followed by glad we've had it now).

Plenty of elderly are being cautious.


Absolutely!

Apart from the consequences of a bout of Omicron, there’s the potential impact of the next variant.

It’s good that folk are optimistic, but optimism doesn’t count for much in the face of modelling that’s proved to be very reliable.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 08, 2022, 10:00:07 pm
I got an outbreak of hives (Urticaria) when it seemed to have gone, but Zyrtec got rid of them after a few days. I suspect the 'Covid fat lady' hasn't tuned up her vocal cords just yet.
You're about the 4th person I've heard talk about hives, it must be a thing!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 08, 2022, 10:40:39 pm
Sorry guys, the dissenters were right all along.  It hasn't been and isn't that big a deal.  We should be seeing a really high rate of disease and death in those communities that havent been vaccinated (the very places the variants are supposed to come from).

Thing is, even there, although they do have excess death, it isnt in any sort of volume that suggests that COVID is or ever will be that big a deal.

Obviously, I attribute our outcomes to the breaks being applied, not letting it rip, vaccinations, etc, but lets face it, its been blown way out of proportion and we can all say that fairly confidently now. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 08, 2022, 11:59:50 pm
Sorry guys, the dissenters were right all along.  It hasn't been and isn't that big a deal.  We should be seeing a really high rate of disease and death in those communities that havent been vaccinated (the very places the variants are supposed to come from).

Thing is, even there, although they do have excess death, it isnt in any sort of volume that suggests that COVID is or ever will be that big a deal.

Obviously, I attribute our outcomes to the breaks being applied, not letting it rip, vaccinations, etc, but lets face it, its been blown way out of proportion and we can all say that fairly confidently now. 

I suggest that you look at that the statistics before making such an absurd claim Thry.

Even the relatively benign Omicron variant is 40% more lethal than seasonal flu.

Folk who can’t help their kids with their homework are claiming epidemiological expertise and it just doesn’t wash.

I’m not an epidemiologist and don’t claim any expertise at all in that field.  However, I have written peer-reviewed papers and reviewed papers by others.  I know how to read and interpret scientific articles and have kept abreast with the latest COVID publications.  Anyone who thinks that COVID isn’t a big deal is a conspiracy theorist or has problems with comprehension.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 09, 2022, 12:48:04 am
ABC Radio Melbourne is running a segment where folk who have lost a family member can put a story to the statistic.  Apart from giving families the opportunity to talk about their lost loved ones, the segment has utterly destroyed the notion that co-morbidity is an equal factor in "deaths with COVID".  It is a fact that folk with "underlying conditions" may have lived for decades with those conditions. 

It's a great opportunity for folk to celebrate and remember the lives of family members who, until now, have largely been reduced to numbers in official statistics.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 09, 2022, 06:44:53 am
I'm reluctant to dismiss well over 6 million deaths and governments that have mishandled its management, however it has exposed many flaws in the system and how many bureaucrats and politicians repetitively lied to cover their utter incompetence.

The harm it has inflicted at every possible level is incalculable.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 09, 2022, 08:37:11 am
I'm reluctant to dismiss well over 6 million deaths and governments that have mishandled its management, however it has exposed many flaws in the system and how many bureaucrats and politicians repetitively lied to cover their utter incompetence.

The harm it has inflicted at every possible level is incalculable.
Remember, the genuine pandemic scientists report that the official figure of about 6 million could be as low as only 30% of the real world total, most think it's around only 50%.

The missing balance is all those deaths in unvaccinated and / or 3rd world populations that is sometimes described in the privileged western hemisphere social media as "deaths we are not seeing!" It's not hard to poke holes in what I think is best described as the Interweb perspective.

I heard another rather startling report yesterday, it relates to long COVID and the fact that regardless of what figure is allocated to the official death rate, the long COVID situation remains reported in tens of percent. Think about that, if COVID deaths really are 0.3%, but long COVID remains in the 10 - 15% range, for every official death there are 30 to 50 long COVID sufferers who have an uncertain future. How many million is that, 180M to 300M people if the 6 million is the real total, which they say it isn't? Nobody can advise them what happens down the track, if they get the flu or some other virus what might COVID has done to their immune system, how will it react? The experts think it is a coin toss, and we are heading into decades of related comorbidity linkable / traceable back to Sars-CoV-2, and this also applies to people who think they have escaped harm!

Sometimes getting over a viral infection makes you stronger, ............... sometimes it doesn't!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 09, 2022, 09:01:58 am
I suggest that you look at that the statistics before making such an absurd claim Thry.

Even the relatively benign Omicron variant is 40% more lethal than seasonal flu.

Folk who can’t help their kids with their homework are claiming epidemiological expertise and it just doesn’t wash.

I’m not an epidemiologist and don’t claim any expertise at all in that field.  However, I have written peer-reviewed papers and reviewed papers by others.  I know how to read and interpret scientific articles and have kept abreast with the latest COVID publications.  Anyone who thinks that COVID isn’t a big deal is a conspiracy theorist or has problems with comprehension.

I am not an epidemiologist either, I'm simply looking at the state of play and calling a spade a spade.  It isn't a big deal.  It was absolutely correct to take a cautious approach, but we can see now, that if this were a truly dangerous virus, we would be in all sorts, particularly on my train this morning where I almost didn't even get a seat. 

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/21539483/covid-19-black-death-plagues-in-history

This article is balanced.  It gives the disease the merit it deserves, yet also highlights why this opinion is fair enough.  Its also worth noting, that there is no conspiracy, it isnt a sham, I never declared it one, I just simply saw that we took appropriate precautions, and now we can largely breathe a sigh of relief that the bullet is well and truly dodged.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 09, 2022, 09:32:42 am
Remember, the genuine pandemic scientists report that the official figure of about 6 million could be as low as only 30% of the real world total, most think it's around only 50%.

@LP ... I never suggested otherwise.  Quite a few countries have lied about the true numbers, of that I have no doubt.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 09, 2022, 10:08:27 am
ABC Radio Melbourne is running a segment where folk who have lost a family member can put a story to the statistic.  Apart from giving families the opportunity to talk about their lost loved ones, the segment has utterly destroyed the notion that co-morbidity is an equal factor in "deaths with COVID".  It is a fact that folk with "underlying conditions" may have lived for decades with those conditions. 

It's a great opportunity for folk to celebrate and remember the lives of family members who, until now, have largely been reduced to numbers in official statistics.

The average age of the covid deaths in Australia was 83 or 84 which is above life expectancy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 09, 2022, 10:27:56 am
The average age of the covid deaths in Australia was 83 or 84 which is above life expectancy.

The median age of COVID deaths in Australia is currently 82, slightly lower than life expectancy, and significantly lower than it was late last year.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on March 09, 2022, 10:34:55 am
My cousin was due to have a 60th birthday party next week.
Folks were flying in from interstate.
Her son has tested positive so it's off, and the immediate family are isolating.
Air fares and accommodation refunds need to be checked out but the bottom line is that it's caused a lot of disruption for a lot of people...and concern for the family at a time of supposed celebration.
It's not over until it's over ;)

One of the ironies of the situation is that people can suggest it didn't have the impact we were warned about, but was that because we did go hard with some of the strategies including high vaccination numbers before opening up?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 09, 2022, 10:37:20 am
The median age of COVID deaths in Australia is currently 82, slightly lower than life expectancy, and significantly lower than it was late last year.

How many more decades were they going to live for?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 09, 2022, 10:41:01 am
Australian Bureau of Statistics report on Covid deaths misrepresented by rightwing media, The Guardian. (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/feb/23/australian-bureau-of-statistics-report-on-covid-deaths-misrepresented-by-rightwing-media)
Quote
The Australian Bureau of Statistics last week released a new report on Covid mortality in Australia. The data is important – it exposes the inequality in how the pandemic is affecting Australians, with deaths higher among people from lower socioeconomic areas, and shockingly high death rates for people born outside Australia.

Experts told Guardian Australia a key reason for this is Australia’s reliance on migrants to undertake essential, insecure work and a failure of government to engage migrant communities early in pandemic planning.

These are issues rarely heard about from politicians and some media outlets during the pandemic, despite the trends being clear since at least August 2020.

However, rightwing radio hosts and columnists saw something different in the figures – support for an ongoing narrative that lockdowns and other interventions represented an “overreaction” or were the result of a “scare campaign”.

[quotes various media pundits]

Fordham, Panahi, Hildebrand and Murray all got the percentage of Covid deaths with underlying health conditions wrong, citing 91% or 92% when it should actually be 69.5%.

They’ve used the number of cases where only Covid was reported on the death certificate, which is 220 or 8.6% of total Covid deaths in this period, and subtracted this from the total.

However, they should have included a further 560 deaths where another condition was “reported with causal sequence of events only”. This means those people did not have a pre-existing chronic condition prior to the chain of events leading to death, but conditions that developed due to Covid-19, such as pneumonia.

While this may seem a bit complicated, the ABS clearly states within the same report the actual number of deaths with pre-existing chronic conditions in very plain terms: “Pre-existing chronic conditions were reported on death certificates for 1,776 (69.5%) of the 2,556 deaths due to Covid-19 deaths outlined in this report.”

A chronic problem
Another major issue is that several of these commentators imply that deaths are somehow not fully attributable to Covid if people had a chronic health condition.

Again, the ABS report states in clear terms that this is not the case: “The majority [2,556] of these 2,639 deaths were due directly to Covid-19”.

While various health conditions and other factors such as age can put you at an increased risk of dying if you catch Covid, it is an increased risk, not a guaranteed death sentence. To put it another way – if it weren’t for Covid these people would not have died when they did.

It’s also important to realise that a very large number of Australians have chronic health conditions (I’ve got one myself!), so implying that deaths of entirely healthy people are somehow more important is unhelpful.

The Australian Institute of Health and Welfare (AIHW) estimates that 47% of Australians aged 18 and over had one or more chronic health conditions, and this rises to 60% in the 45 to 64 age bracket, and to 80% for those over 65.

While the AIHW figures include conditions like back problems and mental and behavioural conditions not included in the ABS Covid deaths report, other figures show how widespread these conditions are. One in three Australians have high blood pressure, and a similar proportion of adults are obese. Both are on the list of the pre-existing chronic conditions listed in the ABS report.

The Y2K fallacy
Another issue with several of the opinion pieces is that they make an argument that I’ve taken to calling the “Y2K fallacy“ for lack of a better term.

They’re using the comparatively low number of Covid deaths relative to other deaths over the same period to make the argument that people overstated the seriousness of Covid or the need for various interventions.

However, this ignores the fact that this comparatively low number of deaths has been achieved by interventions including lockdowns, border controls, mask rules and vaccinations, and without these, the death toll would have undoubtedly been higher. One estimate in October 2020 suggested Australia’s interventions may have saved 16,000 lives. The prime minister, Scott Morrison, suggested in May 2021 that Australia had avoided the loss of 30,000 lives.

That’s not to say that every intervention necessarily worked, or that there wasn’t a health and financial cost to strict policies like lockdowns and border controls, but to argue that these death numbers show that we have “needlessly crippled our societies” is misleading in the extreme.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on March 09, 2022, 11:14:56 am
How many more decades were they going to live for?

Why does that matter?  Heartless comment
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 09, 2022, 11:17:56 am
How many more decades were they going to live for?
When you asked that question did you look at your parents and think another year or two doesn't really matter, I know you didn't so why pose it?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 09, 2022, 12:03:35 pm
https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/covid-19-mortality-australia

The majority (2,556 deaths) of the 2,639 deaths registered with or from COVID to 31 January 2022 were due directly to COVID-19.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 09, 2022, 12:12:18 pm
When you asked that question did you look at your parents and think another year or two doesn't really matter, I know you didn't so why pose it?

My dad died 4 years ago, 60 years old.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 09, 2022, 12:21:23 pm
My dad died 4 years ago, 60 years old.
I'm sorry to hear that, my apologies.

But you get my point regardless.

Assuming they are in good / reasonable health, even perhaps with some underlying chronic condition, we don't look at parents and relatives and think another year or two doesn't really matter.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 09, 2022, 12:26:20 pm
https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/covid-19-mortality-australia

The majority (2,556 deaths) of the 2,639 deaths registered with or from COVID to 31 January 2022 were due directly to COVID-19.
Yep, how this is reported and varies from region to region is more about politics, finance and funding.

The general public assume the reporting is like for like, a COVID death is a COVID death, but it isn't, laws aren't the same region to region, insurance policies vary, government funding mechanisms vary, welfare varies, political and media pressure varies accordingly.

A nice example, my UK associate has relatives somewhere in Europe, he tells me that in their location COVID deaths are not reported as an official COVID only death because there are no mechanisms in place to cover health care costs and welfare for a COVID case, so the doctors "look after" the families by listing a comorbidity like pneumonia, and then the case goes through the health care system unhindered. They are more cynical, they think it's remaining like that so that politicians can stand up and claim we don't have a COVID problem, because the incumbents are politically anti-lockdown, technically it is not a lie!

Not just across international boundaries, but even across our own country the reporting was initially inconsistent state to state, it's worth recalling this when we discuss head counts. Labels matter!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 10, 2022, 12:27:44 pm
There's concern in NSW that the BA2 Omicron Subvariant is causing a spike in cases as it's more transmissible than the BA1 subvariant:
Brad Hazzard concerned at rise of COVID-19 Omicron sub-variant BA2, flags case spike, abc.net.au (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-10/nsw-covid-concern-at-rise-of-ba2-sub-variant/100898154)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 10, 2022, 12:30:36 pm
There's concern in NSW that the BA2 Omicron Subvariant is causing a spike in cases as it's more transmissible than the BA1 subvariant:
Brad Hazzard concerned at rise of COVID-19 Omicron sub-variant BA2, flags case spike, abc.net.au (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-10/nsw-covid-concern-at-rise-of-ba2-sub-variant/100898154)
We should all be hoping it's a false alarm.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 10, 2022, 12:45:48 pm
Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the MCG ...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 10, 2022, 12:47:36 pm
Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the MCG ...
Let's not put the cart before the hearse!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 10, 2022, 09:08:54 pm
There's concern in NSW that the BA2 Omicron Subvariant is causing a spike in cases as it's more transmissible than the BA1 subvariant:
Brad Hazzard concerned at rise of COVID-19 Omicron sub-variant BA2, flags case spike, abc.net.au (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-10/nsw-covid-concern-at-rise-of-ba2-sub-variant/100898154)


Rising cases of the sniffles and sore throats coming to a stadium near you.

Ba2 is unlikely to evade vaccine protection. 

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 10, 2022, 09:29:57 pm
The media is drawing a !ink between COVID and Warne, now Senator Kitching also at 52!

Not sure there is a link, but would you take that risk, just a sniffle isn't it?

Are you sure?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on March 10, 2022, 10:54:54 pm
LP the implied link is with the vaccination,  not Covid.  There has also been noise about many athletes having heart issues post jabs.

One of the anti vax messages is (supposed) high rates of myocarditis following jabs.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 10, 2022, 11:31:56 pm
Don't worry, it's just a sniffle!

Quote
Even a mild case of COVID-19 can increase a person’s risk of cardiovascular problems for at least a year after diagnosis, a new study shows. Researchers found that rates of many conditions, such as heart failure and stroke, were substantially higher in people who had recovered from COVID-19 than in similar people who hadn’t had the disease.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00403-0
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2022, 01:36:02 am
LP the implied link is with the vaccination,  not Covid.  There has also been noise about many athletes having heart issues post jabs.
That is a different issue and the mechanism is known, this new issue is post COVID / Long COVID related.


 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 11, 2022, 07:37:37 am
Nothing to with his lifestyle at all.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on March 11, 2022, 07:47:25 am
Nothing to with his lifestyle at all.

That was along my line of thinking when it happened.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2022, 08:00:11 am
Nothing to with his lifestyle at all.
I don't think there is any doubt 30+ years of smoking is a contributor, or perhaps other aspects of his lifestyle, but does that mean we shouldn't be taking the added COVID risk more seriously?

If you read back through this thread, you'll find I've always asserted that Pfizer and Moderna caused an issue, they weren't the safe alternatives to Az that the media painted, but I also asserted that COVID itself in the absence of vaccines also caused an issue. If fact the scientists have been saying this almost from day one, that COVID causes Cardio Pulmonary problems.

What this really exposes is another flaw in the "Let it Rip" mentality, or that a "mild Omicron infection" is somehow safer and more effective than the vaccines! The science shows it clearly isn't, vaccine side-effects are almost exclusively restricted to a very narrow group of individuals who have certain risk factors, and will present within hours or days of being vaccinated. By comparison post COVID heart complications are happening across the spectrum, and can occur weeks and months later!

For this reason, it pays for everyone to be vigilant. Don't just assume it's a sniffle or you are a bit off-colour, accepting that sniffle assertion blindly increases your risk many fold, get checked out!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 11, 2022, 08:43:32 am
^^

Stop fear mongering.

Its not helpful.  Covid isnt just a cold, but it is comparable to the sniffles now.  Its over, lets get on with it.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 11, 2022, 09:06:30 am
Apparently, Jack Darling has been vaccinated and the only thing stopping him from rejoining the Eagles now is the paperwork:
“They Just Needed Some Positive News”: Eagles Boosted By Darling Vaccination Revelation, SEN. (https://www.sen.com.au/news/2022/03/10/they-just-needed-some-positive-news-eagles-boosted-by-darling-vaccination/)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 11, 2022, 09:45:29 am
^^

Stop fear mongering.

Its not helpful.  Covid isnt just a cold, but it is comparable to the sniffles now.  Its over, lets get on with it.



The ten folk who passed away in Victoria over the last 24 hours would probably disagree ... if they could!

The 32 folk in ICU and nearly 200 in hospital would probably disagree too.

Our local greengrocer and my niece’s husband definitely disagree.

Then there’s the medical and scientific community 🙄
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 11, 2022, 10:18:02 am
The ten folk who passed away in Victoria over the last 24 hours would probably disagree ... if they could!

The 32 folk in ICU and nearly 200 in hospital would probably disagree too.

Our local greengrocer and my niece’s husband definitely disagree.

Then there’s the medical and scientific community 🙄

Whats the answer then?

Hide indoors, locked away doing nothing?

We have all gotten vaccinated.  We are all still wearing masks in public. 

When we lost my dad back in 2005, we all declared that life was precious and you shouldnt take a minute for granted because it might be the last minute you get to spend with your loved ones.  Two years on, we are now in a position where we are adequately protected to get on with it and with the knowledge that the majority of people will be perfectly fine, but these statistics you quote, and these cases LP point to aren't necessarily people who are in hospital because of covid, and (I would know because I saw it up close and personal for the last couple of years) and many of the people I know who are aged, vulnerable, vaccinated, AND got COVID, are still alive and kicking quite happily.

COVID isnt the threat everyone told you it was.  Sorry to burst your bubble.



The sooner you all come to terms with the fact that its a matter of when not if, and the fact that when you do it, the odds are overwhelmingly stacked in favour of a perfectly fine recovery and minimal symptoms, the better you will feel about it.

The numbers arent worth talking about, the world is very much ok with COVID, and our infections are not that high considering the trains are full again.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2022, 10:43:47 am
^^

Stop fear mongering.

Its not helpful.  Covid isnt just a cold, but it is comparable to the sniffles now.  Its over, lets get on with it.
How can I be fear mongering when I'm commenting on stuff that is making front page headlines across all states?

It's being discussed in mainstream media like it's something new and something to be feared. Well it is something to be cautious about, but it's nothing new, it's the reality of COVID from day one that the denialists have largely disregarded and disrespected.

Fools will listen to those who are sprouting the "It's the sniffles" spin and go about their lives ignorant of a real world real life risk.

Omicron is neither benevolent or selective, if you think you can be oblivious and indignant towards it then you are probably just setting yourself up for a horrible surprise. Continue to be vigilant, continue to be careful, continue to be observant, do not be complacent, it may save your own or somebody else's life!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2022, 10:47:13 am
Whats the answer then?

Hide indoors, locked away doing nothing?

We have all gotten vaccinated.  We are all still wearing masks in public.
Well, the answer isn't becoming an Ostrich, it's not wise to sprint off across a mostly grassy paddock when you know it's has land mines!

That's the problem, when people start up with the "It's the sniffles" bullsh1t people think that masks and social distancing are no longer needed, and that is an attitude that can and probably will cost someone somewhere their health!

The smart thing is to be as cynical about the "let it rip" mentality as the anti-vaxxers continue to be about the vaccines, because those two assertions come from the very same root!

There plenty of ways to get on with life, but nobody ever stated you could just go back to "the way we were", except maybe Barbara Striesand!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 11, 2022, 11:03:10 am
Whats the answer then?

Hide indoors, locked away doing nothing?

We have all gotten vaccinated.  We are all still wearing masks in public. 

When we lost my dad back in 2005, we all declared that life was precious and you shouldnt take a minute for granted because it might be the last minute you get to spend with your loved ones.  Two years on, we are now in a position where we are adequately protected to get on with it and with the knowledge that the majority of people will be perfectly fine, but these statistics you quote, and these cases LP point to aren't necessarily people who are in hospital because of covid, and (I would know because I saw it up close and personal for the last couple of years) and many of the people I know who are aged, vulnerable, vaccinated, AND got COVID, are still alive and kicking quite happily.

COVID isnt the threat everyone told you it was.  Sorry to burst your bubble.



The sooner you all come to terms with the fact that its a matter of when not if, and the fact that when you do it, the odds are overwhelmingly stacked in favour of a perfectly fine recovery and minimal symptoms, the better you will feel about it.

The numbers arent worth talking about, the world is very much ok with COVID, and our infections are not that high considering the trains are full again.

I agree with most of that Thry, although public transport use remains at around one third of pre-pandemic levels, and COVID is definitely the threat that we feared; 6M deaths worldwide (and we know that figure is grossly understated and global excess deaths could be as much as 24M - see https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00104-8#correction-0).

I think that contracting COVID is inevitable and, with luck, vaccination and no underlying compromising conditions, it should be a relatively mild illness.  However, there are exceptions and some folk I know have been very ill.  Then there's long COVID and the increased risk of heart problems and strokes. 

It all seems to be going according to the modelling, with the exception of the Delta variant that caught everyone unawares.  Another curve ball could be heading our way or we could be dealing with another seasonal flu-like illness ... with complications.  Of course, that's just us with our relatively sophisticated health and governance systems.  It's a different kettle of fish in other parts of the world. 

It's also interesting to look at the Australian median death rates by ethnicity.  Some groups in our country are being hit much harder.  That could be down to socio-economic factors or cultural/religious attitudes to vaccination and/or medical treatment.  I don't think that it could be different population demographics, but it could be.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2022, 11:10:38 am
It's also interesting to look at the Australian median death rates by ethnicity.  Some groups in our country are being hit much harder.  That could be down to socio-economic factors or cultural/religious attitudes to vaccination and/or medical treatment. I don't think that it could be different population demographics, but it could be.
It seems to be the driver of quite a lot of the dissent.

I listened to an RN report last week that claimed it's deliberately leveraged in social media by groups that have less then genuine motives.

The silly thing is, the tell that the social media spin is bullcrap is the number of wealthy people popping off the planet due either directly to COVID or potentially to a COVID related comorbidity. It's happening front page right before the publics eyes, and it makes a mockery of all the conspiracy theories that a rooted in socio-economic or ethnicity prejudice.

COVID is not wealthy white individuals manipulating your life and wellbeing for profit, Sars-CoV-2 is neither racist or bigoted, it's harming or killing everyone equally, it's killing the wealthy too!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 11, 2022, 12:06:48 pm
The point of the governmental warnings over the new subvariant is to persuade people to get the booster. The booster offers much more protection against Omicron but the "it's just the sniffles" talk helps to drive down the demand for the booster.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2022, 12:25:57 pm
The point of the governmental warnings over the new subvariant is to persuade people to get the booster. The booster offers much more protection against Omicron but the "it's just the sniffles" talk helps to drive down the demand for the booster.
There is a problem going to surface, and it relates to re-infection.

People are starting to get re-infected on quite short cycles, the immunity offered by Omicron dwindles very quickly, and people are presenting 8 or 10 weeks after being infected and they are infected again.

The vaccines have done the job, they don't have acute symptoms, but the need to avoid an immune system overload means they can't be vaccinated. I think if I recall the minimum interval is now 6 weeks clear health before the Sars-CoV-2 vaccine.

With the lead-time to vaccination being several weeks and the short re-infection cycle it's becoming a bigger issue to find a window for the best practice safe treatment, they may be forced to move to a riskier model.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 11, 2022, 12:32:46 pm
There is a problem going to surface, and it relates to re-infection.

People are starting to get re-infected on quite short cycles, the immunity offered by Omicron dwindles very quickly, and people are presenting 8 or 10 weeks after being infected and they are infected again.

The vaccines have done the job, they don't have acute symptoms, but the need to avoid an immune system overload means they can't be vaccinated. I think if I recall the minimum interval is now 6 weeks clear health before the Sars-CoV-2 vaccine.

With the lead-time to vaccination being several weeks and the short re-infection cycle it's becoming a bigger issue to find a window for the best practice safe treatment, they may be forced to move to a riskier model.

My daughter just had her booster, six weeks after completing her COVID isolation.  The post-vaccination symptoms were worse than COVID  ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2022, 12:35:32 pm
My daughter just had her booster, six weeks after completing her COVID isolation.  The post-vaccination symptoms were worse than COVID  ::)
Pfizer?

At least when you get a reaction you know it's working, I'm more worried about people who get a mild dose of COVID then conclude the vaccines aren't required.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 11, 2022, 12:38:52 pm
Today I have heard LP allude to covid killing Shane Warne and just at lunch I overheard a man saying it was the booster shot that did him in.

Bullcrap from both sides.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 11, 2022, 12:43:49 pm
Pfizer?

At least when you get a reaction you know it's working, I'm more worried about people who get a mild dose of COVID then conclude the vaccines aren't required.

I think it was Pfizer.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2022, 12:49:38 pm
Today I have heard LP allude to covid killing Shane Warne and just at lunch I overheard a man saying it was the booster shot that did him in.

Bullcrap from both sides.
I haven't alluded to COVID killing Warne, however I'm commenting on articles in media that are doing that, and I'm also discussing the real world effects of COVID that are relevant and have been known for a long long time.

As far as I can ascertain, Warne could not have recently had a booster shot because he only had COVID a few weeks before he left Australia, I believe across all federal jurisdictions you need to be negative for six weeks before you are allowed a booster shot.

If Warne had a booster shot it must have been before he got COVID the second time, he'd had COVID twice.

Do we know what "Fully Vaccinated" is in Thai terms, some regions are two shots while others are three, maybe Thailand was the chosen destination because you only need two shots?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 11, 2022, 12:56:23 pm
The media is drawing a !ink between COVID and Warne, now Senator Kitching also at 52!

Not sure there is a link, but would you take that risk, just a sniffle isn't it?

Are you sure?

If someone else wrote this and changed the word covid to vaccination you would have went to town on them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 11, 2022, 01:01:14 pm
If someone else wrote this and changed the word covid to vaccination you would have went to town on them.
And I'd be justified.

You made an erroneous assumption, to be valid to travel you have to be fully vaccinated for some period before departing, you can't get the jab and fly out tomorrow. If a vaccine is going to cause myocarditis it's not going to be weeks or months after you get the jab, it'll be a day or two, a few days at most.

Secondly, vaccine induced myocarditis in 50+ year olds is almost completely absent from global data, the occurrence is so rare in mature adults it's barely counted, the main problem is youth and 20 somethings.

The scientists are actually saying the cause is likely quite complex, COVID might make someone more susceptible to some secondary infection, a comorbidity. For that reason it is very wise to remain vigilant, just because someone got mild symptoms doesn't mean they have escaped harm. I'm working today with people who are acting like clowns because they recently had COVID and "can't get it again", out on the piss overnight, complaining about hangovers and headaches.

It may still be that the Senator was very recently vaccinated, the media and social media coverage is premature, which was my point when I highlighted how alarmist the latest media commentary is becoming.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 11, 2022, 08:55:11 pm
‘This is our biggest killer’: Shock deaths put spotlight on heart disease, The Age. (https://www.theage.com.au/healthcare/this-is-our-biggest-killer-shock-deaths-put-spotlight-on-heart-disease-20220311-p5a3ry.html)

Quote
Cardiovascular doctors and researchers are trying to ascertain whether COVID-19 infections have long-term effects on the heart, with a major study published in Nature Medicine finding incidents of serious cardiac and cardiovascular problems were higher among people infected with the virus.

The study analysed the health records of more than 150,000 patients from the US Department of Veterans Affairs and found that COVID-19 patients were 63 per cent were more likely to have a heart attack and 52 per cent more likely to have a stroke than control groups.

Cardiologist Stephen Nicholls, from Monash University’s Victoria Heart Institute, said it was plausible that heart disease could result from a COVID-19 infection, but the science was still evolving.

“We know that COVID can cause inflammation of the heart muscle and the pericardium ... it also can cause an increased clotting tendency,” he said.

Peter Barlis, a cardiologist at the Northern and St Vincent’s hospitals in Victoria, said patients suffering a heart attack while infected with COVID-19 tended to have worse outcomes, including a higher chance of clots and injury to the heart muscle.

However, he said the link between COVID-19 and cardiovascular disease should not be overstated, as there were still many unknowns. It was crucial to monitor the heart conditions of people with acute COVID-19 infections to study any long-term effects, he said.
The other problem noted is that Covid restrictions and caution reduced the number of people getting heart checks and also had an effect on mental health.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 14, 2022, 10:05:33 am
The NFL has been using an unproven measure to get players with Covid back on the field fast, Salon. (https://www.salon.com/2022/03/13/the-nfl-has-been-using-an-unproven-measure-to-get-players-with-back-on-the-field-fast_partner/)

Interesting article which highlights the lack of a diagnostic test that is able to give a timely indication that an infected player has ceased to be infectious. PCR tests will report infection even after the player ceases to be infectious. That will no doubt be an issue the AFL has to tackle too and it might adopt the NFL's policy as more players will be available to play under it.

To determine whether a player remained infectious, the NFL adopted a threshold of 2 negative PCR tests or 2 "faintly positive" PCR tests or 1 of each. They defined "faintly positive" as having a cycle threshold (or Ct value) of 35 or higher. The Ct value reports "how many times the [PCR] machine had to copy the genetic material of the virus in the sample before it yielded enough to actually see". A high Ct value suggests there's so little genetic material in the sample that the PCR machine needed to copy it over and over until there was enough to detect. That would suggest the person who provided the sample didn't have enough Covid to be infectious.

But that test remains controversial as it isn't a standardised measure and is affected by how the sample is taken; e.g. did the patient cough before the sample was taken or did the person who took the sample hit the right spots.

It seems it's halfway between solid science and witchcraft but it may well be a good halfway solution.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 14, 2022, 10:52:53 am
GP's here are telling people they are basically no longer infectious 7 days after first developing symptoms and testing positive, not sure how that has come about but it seems to be widely applied. The idea is that 7 days after symptoms appear you are already past shedding live virus.

The researchers seem to think people are most likely highly infectious just before symptoms appear, that sort of makes sense because symptoms are actually a sign that someone's body has detected the virus and begun defending itself. This also explains how Sars-CoV-2 is so readily and widely transmitted, you've spread it well before you get sick.

Tough gig being a medical professional and virologist, you almost have to predict the future.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 14, 2022, 11:05:38 am
Players may well test positive after taking routine Covid tests without displaying symptoms. Then the "7 days from first symptoms" test wouldn't apply.

And even 7 days would be too long for AFL clubs. Say a player displayed symptoms on the Friday and tests positive. He'll miss the weekend game, but the 7 day rule would mean he couldn't train with the team in the following week. Depending on how established that player is in the team, that may mean he isn't considered available for selection for the 2nd week in a row. AFL clubs would prefer to be able to conduct a couple of PCRs to get the player back in training mid-week.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 14, 2022, 11:16:00 am
Players may well test positive after taking routine Covid tests without displaying symptoms. Then the "7 days from first symptoms" test wouldn't apply.

And even 7 days would be too long for AFL clubs. Say a player displayed symptoms on the Friday and tests positive. He'll miss the weekend game, but the 7 day rule would mean he couldn't train with the team in the following week. Depending on how established that player is in the team, that may mean he isn't considered available for selection for the 2nd week in a row. AFL clubs would prefer to be able to conduct a couple of PCRs to get the player back in training mid-week.
I don't think the AFL will care, it's no worse than a minor injury, there is luck in the timing especially if players have to be tested on game day.

I believe in the education sector staff test twice weekly, Monday and Thursday or something similar.

As I see it club's can't have it both ways, the relaxed regime and the extra list numbers, they need to commit to one strategy or the other rather than have a bob each way!

All this is going down in under the assumption Omicron is the end game, I think that it is 50/50 at best, I wouldn't want to put my faith in modified testing only to have a new variant surface and scupper everything, I'd be going the extra numbers from day dot!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 14, 2022, 03:07:07 pm
Players may well test positive after taking routine Covid tests without displaying symptoms. Then the "7 days from first symptoms" test wouldn't apply.

And even 7 days would be too long for AFL clubs. Say a player displayed symptoms on the Friday and tests positive. He'll miss the weekend game, but the 7 day rule would mean he couldn't train with the team in the following week. Depending on how established that player is in the team, that may mean he isn't considered available for selection for the 2nd week in a row. AFL clubs would prefer to be able to conduct a couple of PCRs to get the player back in training mid-week.

Just throwing it out there that the AFL already have a policy in place and we've seen it in place for the AFLW so far.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 14, 2022, 03:21:56 pm
But what does it say about returning after a positive test? I know there's a protocol just as I know there are secret sauces used by McDonalds. My casual Googling doesn't give me any details of either.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 14, 2022, 05:30:40 pm
Once I registered my positive test I hot a message saying I have to isolate for 7 days and are not required to test again for 30 days.

Of course I tested myself after 7 days and I was still positive. Even 10 days later I was still positive. Haven't tested since.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 14, 2022, 07:17:41 pm
Once I registered my positive test I hot a message saying I have to isolate for 7 days and are not required to test again for 30 days.

Of course I tested myself after 7 days and I was still positive. Even 10 days later I was still positive. Haven't tested since.
In the old days of contact tracing and isolation for 14 days after a positive test, it was not recommended to retest (PCR at the time) at the end of the 14 days as they said you could test positive for many months. The key was that you were no longer infectious. Many bosses wanted a negative test before allowing workers to return by the gov advice was that it was not necessary and not enforceable for the reason given above and being infectious.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 14, 2022, 07:52:31 pm
But what does it say about returning after a positive test? I know there's a protocol just as I know there are secret sauces used by McDonalds. My casual Googling doesn't give me any details of either.

Its about as clear as the free agency compensation formula.......nobody knows.

The AFL don't talk about Covid, they talk about 'health and safety protocols'. Which is code for Covid, but could also cover players needing to isolate....if that is even still a thing.

All that being said, if one of the girls missed a game through 'H+S P', they usually played the following week. Sometimes they'd miss 2 weeks. I guess it depends on how well they are feeling as much as anything else.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 14, 2022, 08:29:51 pm
Yep, I'd say the Covid Protocol is about as accessible to the public as the interplanetary plan for Earth to be destroyed to make way for a bypass in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
Quote
"But the plans were on display . . ."
"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."
"That's the display department."
"With a torch."
"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."
"So had the stairs."
"But look, you found the notice, didn't you?"
"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying Beware of the Leopard."
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 17, 2022, 11:57:52 am
The AFLW has shown that the AFL can't put Covid in the rearview mirror just yet. Covid has run though Collingwood's AFLW team and their final has been postponed as a result. Apparently, they wouldn't be able to field more than a handful or 2 of players.

We're heading towards colder weather aka flu season when people tend to spend more time inside and the new sub-variant is one of the most transmissible diseases known to man. No wonder the AFL is barrelling ahead with an extra list of 20 backup players per team.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 24, 2022, 12:34:51 pm
COVID is a con, just a cold, can be cured with a handful of cheap worm tablets and some sensible bed rest, we should open up as our liberty is impinged!

Clive Palmer says hello, lucky to live apparently despite all his wealth! :o

Sure he is overweight, sure he isn't healthy, but he has resources available to him beyond 1000x that of the common person!

I've several associates who have been through COVID at various levels now, some asymptomatic, others needing hospitalisation, several of them just aren't the same weeks and months after coming out the other side of the infection. Depressed, foggy, distracted, confused, exhausted, the difference before and after for these unlucky few is stark.

I drive on freeways daily about 1hr each way, something has degraded the skills of many drivers, something has changed the behaviour, I'll be gobsmacked if as more and more return to work we don't see accidents increase, another hidden cost!

Are these issues the price we will all pay in the long term that far far outweighs the initial loss of life?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on March 24, 2022, 12:53:01 pm
Man, it's a weird thing!

As previously mentioned, my son got it, but pretty mildly.  He passed it onto me - I had a razor blade throat (didn't eat for two days), could have filled up a swimming pool with the amount of phlegm that was going on and felt crap.  No fever.  My wife got it and it seemed like a bad head cold for her.

I had no energy for about 10 days afterwards.  Going to the shops to get milk took about an hour to recover from.  Couldn't concentrate, felt really fatigued, but not tired (if that makes sense).  OK now.

Daughter hasn't had it at all.  We were testing here daily while my wife was isolating.

Interestingly, we spoke to the Covid hotline, and we didn't need to start the isolation period again for the new infections, so our daughter went back to school at the same time as our son, while my wife and I were isolating. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 24, 2022, 12:55:49 pm
Interestingly, we spoke to the Covid hotline, and we didn't need to start the isolation period again for the new infections, so our daughter went back to school at the same time as our son, while my wife and I were isolating.
Yep, this seems to be the technical difference between being ill like having symptoms and being infectious.

The general public think you are infectious when you are ill, but it seems by the time you are ill the infectious period has mostly passed.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 25, 2022, 08:23:19 am
The time for vigilance is not over yet,

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/03/omicron-is-trouncing-the-argument-for-natural-immunity-to-covid/

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2201607

The long term trick here is going to be vigilance combined with early and appropriate action, people need to adjust because things are not going back to the way they were anytime soon.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 05, 2022, 11:16:26 am
I fear our politicians are demonstrating just how indifferent they can be to the plight of everyday people.

Scomo in particular seems to be using a popularist viewpoint to call for changes to the COVID ISO rules, while in the background case numbers and deaths are now starting to rise for the first time in many weeks. Some domestic regions are even re-establishing COVID wards, which is a tad alarming for those of us watching on.

Scomo has basically made a very public bet using everybody's welfare, that things won't get bad by the time election day comes around, which can only be 4 to 6 weeks away! A vote for Scomo is a vote for freedom, except it looks like it won't be, he is betting that a new COVID wave doesn't hit before we vote!

Fortunately, the number of ICU cases is low as a percentage of total cases, but the case spike is alarming and the total is quite quite big in some regions. From what I can tell Omicron is about 1/3rd as acute as other variants, but that is offset by increased virulence and seemingly reduce resistance in over 65s.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 05, 2022, 04:13:22 pm
^^

I understand that the numbers are concerning, but the reality is that across the globe people are living in relative normality and not wearing masks, attending the office etc, and whilst cases rise, the hospitalisations are low.  If you eliminated the positives that werent even that sick, then the concern is actually not too great in the greater populace.  I can tell you, I have caught the train for the last 2 months, and still no where near it.

Somehow, in my sisters household, her son copped it, then 4 days later she did, and then a week later the middle child caught it at school.  Brother in law is still negative, and they have taken 0 measures.  IF you cant catch it living with someone who is positive (note same bed, not really isolating etc) then a lot of the iso rules are a bonafide waste of time.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on April 05, 2022, 04:16:35 pm
Vaccination requirements easing in QLD.

https://www.9news.com.au/national/coronavirus-queensland-update-more-restrictions-eased-across-queensland-from-thursday-april-14/c168af87-0633-47f3-a5b9-9cce0d7285d7

Quote
Most venues across Queensland will be open to unvaccinated people as the state eases a raft of COVID-19 restrictions next week.
Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk announced today that hospitality and tourism venues will be open to "everyone regardless of vaccination status" from 1am on Thursday April 14.
The venues include pubs, clubs, cafes and restaurants, theme parks, casinos and cinemas, weddings, showgrounds, galleries, libraries, museums and stadiums.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 05, 2022, 04:23:37 pm
IF you cant catch it living with someone who is positive (note same bed, not really isolating etc) then a lot of the iso rules are a bonafide waste of time.
They are flat out trying to find out why this happens, it is quite a common story in households with many generations and it's not always the young people that avoid a dose, if they can work out the why it could lead to a breakthrough treatment / cure.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on April 05, 2022, 05:54:05 pm
80% of my work have had it now. Some of the remaining have never taken a test so there is a good chance they have had it too.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on April 05, 2022, 08:08:51 pm
80% of my work have had it now. Some of the remaining have never taken a test so there is a good chance they have had it too.

Exactly.

Reports in the media of one in six people having had Covid made me laugh. So many folks (that I know) have had symptoms but haven't had a test.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on April 05, 2022, 08:31:53 pm
I don't know 1 person in my side of the family that has had it.
Not me, my brothers, my parents, my grandparents, my uncles/aunties/cousins etc. Not 1.
My wifes side of the family has had several people have it, a lot of them from travelling interstate etc.

From my 6 families of regular friends, its gone through 2 families only.

From 7 similarly roled people at my work, only 1 has got it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 05, 2022, 08:38:58 pm
After a very slow start, Omicron has gone through my family, friends and workmates. If I had to guesstimate, 50-60% of every person I know has had it. Me, my wife and youngest daughter haven't. My eldest and her partner are currently isolating with it. My Mum and MIL haven't.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 08, 2022, 07:58:37 am
They Trumpernutters spent years telling us COVID was fake and it was just a cold.

Now they are out dancing in the streets "Cos COVIDs gunna kill Pelosi!"

Completely consistent and rational behaviour!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on April 08, 2022, 10:26:45 am
Considering Vic and NSW state governments are seriously looking at dropping mandates for unvaxed with word being they will be allowed back into restaurant bars etc I wonder if the afl will also do a back flip.

Probably not as I’m there would have been a fair portion of players that got it when they didn’t really want to so would probably just cause them more issues.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 08, 2022, 10:43:32 am
Considering Vic and NSW state governments are seriously looking at dropping mandates for unvaxed with word being they will be allowed back into restaurant bars etc I wonder if the afl will also do a back flip.
This is not the universal push that the media are making out, it's being driven by Scomo for political purposes, he has a number of seats on the brink and is pushing for every trivial vote he can find, including the nutter vote.

If Scomo goes down this path, the rest of the general public should drop him like a hot rock!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 08, 2022, 10:44:18 am
Considering Vic and NSW state governments are seriously looking at dropping mandates for unvaxed with word being they will be allowed back into restaurant bars etc I wonder if the afl will also do a back flip.

Probably not as I’m there would have been a fair portion of players that got it when they didn’t really want to so would probably just cause them more issues.

They wont create policy on the run.

The policy was based on list management decisions made towards the end of last year, and that will stay in place for season 2022.

Season 2023 will be interesting for the likes of Liam Jones though if the vaccine mandates drop.

FWIW, they wont remove the mandate from all settings.  Health care and government workers will forever need to be vaccinated now but we might see some spin that becomes covid and flu vaccine combined.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 08, 2022, 01:03:10 pm
They wont create policy on the run.

The policy was based on list management decisions made towards the end of last year, and that will stay in place for season 2022.

Season 2023 will be interesting for the likes of Liam Jones though if the vaccine mandates drop.

FWIW, they wont remove the mandate from all settings.  Health care and government workers will forever need to be vaccinated now but we might see some spin that becomes covid and flu vaccine combined.


Agree...Nurses still being sacked for not getting the booster.I know of three specialist nurses who had bad side effects from the second jab who refused the booster and were fired soon after. Stupid waste of talent and a waste of money given the training and experience they had.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 08, 2022, 01:29:20 pm

Agree...Nurses still being sacked for not getting the booster.I know of three specialist nurses who had bad side effects from the second jab who refused the booster and were fired soon after. Stupid waste of talent and a waste of money given the training and experience they had.
@ElwoodBlues1 Makes even less sense when the science clearly shows the booster can any of the available vaccines.

Again, it is another case of politics and bureaucracy getting in the way of progress.

btw; The strong side-effects of the 2nd jab are it seems a known known for Pfizer / Moderna.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 08, 2022, 01:37:27 pm
Life under the chairman ... who now has had his powers extended (again) because of that deal struck with patten. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on April 08, 2022, 03:32:44 pm
Considering Vic and NSW state governments are seriously looking at dropping mandates for unvaxed with word being they will be allowed back into restaurant bars etc I wonder if the afl will also do a back flip.

Probably not as I’m there would have been a fair portion of players that got it when they didn’t really want to so would probably just cause them more issues.
No chance IMO.

It would be bad for the brand if some unvaxed player got covid and ended up in ICU.
Better to be safe than sorry
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 08, 2022, 04:58:01 pm
No chance IMO.

It would be bad for the brand if some unvaxed player got covid and ended up in ICU.
Better to be safe than sorry
Its interesting having been in hospital recently you find its the staff in the main who have come down with CoVid rather badly, the patients seem well looked after in that regard and handled with a safety first approach but when you talked to the nurses etc I was surprised at how many were agency fill ins or poached from other wards, other hospitals because of how many regulars had tested positive for CoVid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on April 08, 2022, 08:10:20 pm

Agree...Nurses still being sacked for not getting the booster.I know of three specialist nurses who had bad side effects from the second jab who refused the booster and were fired soon after. Stupid waste of talent and a waste of money given the training and experience they had.

My wife is one who won’t get the booster because of how crook she was from her second jab. Been nearly 6 months and she is still affected.  And she is not on her own. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on April 08, 2022, 08:24:04 pm
Gee @shawny .... sure hope for her sake (and yours of course) that life gets back to where it should.  My best wishes to you.   :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 10, 2022, 09:35:17 pm
Ollie Wines joining the list of young people with heart issues. The Sunday footy show via Damian Barrett raised the alarming rise in heart issues and other side effects like Bells Palsy after having the 2nd dose of vaccine or booster shot. Matthew Loyd of course has just had a bad dose of Bells Palsy as has my daughter in law who has spent a week in hospital undergoing auto immune testing.
I'm not anti vax and have had my three shots but my heart issues were also only three weeks after the booster.
Imho there needs to be more investigation into the side effects and vaccine safety.
Medical testing prior to boosters should be available imo for those with family history and anti body level testing for Covid so those not needing boosters don't get them. All the best to Shawnys wife for a quick full recovery...

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on April 10, 2022, 10:24:33 pm
Ollie Wines joining the list of young people with heart issues. The Sunday footy show via Damian Barrett raised the alarming rise in heart issues and other side effects like Bells Palsy after having the 2nd dose of vaccine or booster shot. Matthew Loyd of course has just had a bad dose of Bells Palsy as has my daughter in law who has spent a week in hospital undergoing auto immune testing.
I'm not anti vax and have had my three shots but my heart issues were also only three weeks after the booster.
Imho there needs to be more investigation into the side effects and vaccine safety.
Medical testing prior to boosters should be available imo for those with family history and anti body level testing for Covid so those not needing boosters don't get them. All the best to Shawnys wife for a quick full recovery...



Thanks EB and I totally agree with everything you say but don’t hold your breath thinking we will be getting any accurate side effect data anytime soon.

It’s not good for business.

All I know is I won’t be pushed with taking any booster and will wait and see the severity of the particular strain we are dealing with and will make a decision then.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 10, 2022, 10:26:43 pm
Don't let a coincidence detail your lives.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on April 10, 2022, 10:55:44 pm
I see the Sunday Footy Show has ventured into the medical field, pontificating about Lloyd's Bell's Palsy and Ollie Wines' health issues. Well, I shouldn't say pontificating because they just did the Donald Trump thing of saying people are asking questions.

I contracted Bell's Palsy too. In my case, it was years ago and I never figured out how that happened. Maybe SciFi is right and ripples in time went into the past caused by my booster.

And maybe that's what happened to Nathan Eagleton. Fit footballers don't collapse on field for no reason.

PS: Both Bell's Palsy and myocarditis have been associated with Covid infection too.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 11, 2022, 09:43:05 am
Yes I've read quite a few Bell's Palsy R&D articles in recent years, and I believe Lloyd had it previously before the pandemic.

I had always thought that men and women were affected equally, but apparently when looking at age distribution I was surprised to read how common it is for younger women. Also it's under-diagnosed, the speculation is that many do not even realise they have had it as the symptoms and side-effects can be very mild and are usually not permanent, a twitchy feeling in an eyelid or eyebrow might be all people notice. There have been some suggestions contraceptive pills are also a contributing cause in young women, but these all seem to be correlation rather than causation, and the researchers pointed out that the same correlation could easily point to increasing sexual activity in adolescents and this might point to some commonly encountered viruses.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on April 11, 2022, 10:49:23 am
When I had it, the first symptom was it changed my perceptions of taste: I was at a restaurant and I was p!55ed off that the meal I'd ordered had an overpowering taste of orange. The woman I was with tasted it and said there was no orange taste at all. Then later that night I woke up with the pillow case touching my eyeball. From there, my inability to close my eye was very obvious and I needed an eye patch and one side of my face including the corner of my mouth just dropped. The way the doctor explained it then was a facial nerve had died but it would regrow in time. I was warned, though, that sometimes the regrown nerves didn't connect correctly with the existing ones, like rewiring the electrics in a car and getting left and right indicators mixed up. An example, apparently, was the TV journalist Paul Lyneham who had a weird grimace when he tried to smile. Fortunately for me it all went back to normal.

While causation still seems to be a mystery, viruses seem to be a suspect. In my case, I hadn't had any flu or other virus AFAIK. Is there some virus which is asymptomatic other than initiating Bell's Palsy? Could those who have recently contracted Bell's Palsy have suffered breakthrough Covid infections that were asymptomatic other than initiating Bell's Palsy? As the mRNA vaccines don't contain live virus, would they even have the ability to kill facial nerves? What are the chances that an immune response generated by this vaccine would be so specific as to kill facial nerves and nothing else? It's all very speculative but very interesting all the same.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 11, 2022, 11:02:36 am
I know some here are clinging desperately to the fact that the vaccines are perfect and cause no harm, but the fact of the matter is that there is anecdotal accounts of young fit and previously healthy people suddenly suffering bouts of myocarditis, and bells palsy in many walks of life.

I know one nurse who suffered Bells on her booster and is no longer allowed to work onsite even with the ATAGI exemption, and is reverting to booking patients through outpatient clinics.  I also know of a guy in his early 30's who ended up with myocarditis who was previously fit and healthy and was in the fitness industry and has a gym in his house at home.

I don't know enough about all of it to make a judgement either way, but trying to explain these things away as correlation serves no purpose.

Thing is, there is an economic reality to all of this.  The vaccine was pushed out, because someone would have had to perform a cost benefit analysis of pros and cons of getting vaccinated in gen pop, vs gen pop getting covid and requiring treatment.

That analysis will include, greater presenations in ICU, vs greater presentations in perceived side effects, vs cost of producing and implementation of vaccines vs not doing it in terms of outcomes for all at a general level.  This would not have been done using conservative numbers, but modelled on an aggressive form of the virus causing quite a lot of angst, which may or may not have come to fruition (hard to argue how it would have been here, vs 3rd world countries).

Someone in the know made those choices, and did so having to weigh up the fact that all of this isn't free and there is a bill to foot.  At some point, the percentages will be low enough to make the vaccinations the lesser of two evils.  The other being an unknown quantity to start with built on modelling.   This isnt to state that the process was corrupted, but just a plain old risk assessment using factors that may or may not have been true for all people.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 11, 2022, 11:14:26 am
While causation still seems to be a mystery, viruses seem to be a suspect. In my case, I hadn't had any flu or other virus AFAIK. Is there some virus which is asymptomatic other than initiating Bell's Palsy?
The Chicken Pox, Mumps and several other Herpes Zoster like viruses have a strong association and might not present any other symptoms at all, or even something trivial like a cold sore. I believe at least 25% to 50% of us carry them as they are endemic, and most will have no symptoms at all.

Could those who have recently contracted Bell's Palsy have suffered breakthrough Covid infections that were asymptomatic other than initiating Bell's Palsy?
As I understand the literature this is a distinct possibility for most of the serious COVID symptoms, which is why those "COVID is just a cold" claims made by the Trumpians are so innately stupid.

As the mRNA vaccines don't contain live virus, would they even have the ability to kill facial nerves? What are the chances that an immune response generated by this vaccine would be so specific as to kill facial nerves and nothing else? It's all very speculative but very interesting all the same.
Yes it is interesting, but maybe it's unlikely an inflammatory response that was so mild as to be asymptomatic could lead to the required level of apoptosis. But I suppose given most cases are not permanent it's not impossible, in recent years inflammatory conditions are being identified as the big contributor to many of these conditions. But to assert it's vaccine, as Barrett tried to stir up in the media is correlation / coincidence. I note Barrett has backtracked today and so he should!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 11, 2022, 11:16:28 am
I know some here are clinging desperately to the fact that the vaccines are perfect and cause no harm, but the fact of the matter is that there is anecdotal accounts of young fit and previously healthy people suddenly suffering bouts of myocarditis, and bells palsy in many walks of life.
Nobody has claimed the vaccines are perfect.

The numbers of people suffering Myocarditis and Bell's Palsy is normal, the rare occurrences associated with COVID and or vaccine are low compared to the normal occurrence rate. The case numbers have not statistically significantly increased, and it's normal for the age group between teenage and 60 to the be group primarily affected.

I suspect most cases of Bell's Palsy and Myocarditis are sudden, I don't know anyone who planned it ahead of time and made a reservation.

What has changed is that social media has given them something to blame.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on April 11, 2022, 11:26:59 am
Remember that "anecdotal evidence" was what led to the false claim that the MMR vaccine caused autism. No one should bother with anecdotal evidence: at best, it might identify areas in which actual research should be conducted.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 11, 2022, 11:32:48 am
Remember that "anecdotal evidence" was what led to the false claim that the MMR vaccine caused autism. No one should bother with anecdotal evidence: at best, it might identify areas in which actual research should be conducted.
Yes, that is the definition of a correlation, however we have to remember that was also the act of a nefarious actor who put profit ahead of welfare.

The correlation is the intuitive part of the R&D caper, at which point he science should take over and make a derivative finding, but that's the big money spend many diseases will never see.

btw., The vaccine related myocarditis is very very specific, they can test for it, there is no need to speculate, in fact if they wanted to they now know enough that they can test in advance, but the very low occurrence rate does not justify the expense and it turns out now they know what causes it they also know the effective treatment. Early diagnosis though is still critical, so if you are unwell to the point of being breathless you should be getting checked out.

On the COVID related acute illness, it looks like the new medicines are going to effectively eliminate a lot of this driving the occurrence rate below the baseline, they really can't do any more than that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 11, 2022, 11:45:19 am
As an aside to this discussion, the inability of Ivermectin to reduce the occurrence of any COVID symptoms to baseline level is derivative and unequivocal proof that the use of Ivermectin is complete shizen for the treatment of COVID.

Ivermectin couldn't even deliver a loose correlation that left it in with a chance!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 11, 2022, 12:42:47 pm
Nobody has claimed the vaccines are perfect.

The numbers of people suffering Myocarditis and Bell's Palsy is normal, the rare occurrences associated with COVID and or vaccine are low compared to the normal occurrence rate. The case numbers have not statistically significantly increased, and it's normal for the age group between teenage and 60 to the be group primarily affected.

I suspect most cases of Bell's Palsy and Myocarditis are sudden, I don't know anyone who planned it ahead of time and made a reservation.

What has changed is that social media has given them something to blame.
I know some here are clinging desperately to the fact that the vaccines are perfect and cause no harm, but the fact of the matter is that there is anecdotal accounts of young fit and previously healthy people suddenly suffering bouts of myocarditis, and bells palsy in many walks of life.

I know one nurse who suffered Bells on her booster and is no longer allowed to work onsite even with the ATAGI exemption, and is reverting to booking patients through outpatient clinics.  I also know of a guy in his early 30's who ended up with myocarditis who was previously fit and healthy and was in the fitness industry and has a gym in his house at home.

I don't know enough about all of it to make a judgement either way, but trying to explain these things away as correlation serves no purpose.

Thing is, there is an economic reality to all of this.  The vaccine was pushed out, because someone would have had to perform a cost benefit analysis of pros and cons of getting vaccinated in gen pop, vs gen pop getting covid and requiring treatment.

That analysis will include, greater presenations in ICU, vs greater presentations in perceived side effects, vs cost of producing and implementation of vaccines vs not doing it in terms of outcomes for all at a general level.  This would not have been done using conservative numbers, but modelled on an aggressive form of the virus causing quite a lot of angst, which may or may not have come to fruition (hard to argue how it would have been here, vs 3rd world countries).

Someone in the know made those choices, and did so having to weigh up the fact that all of this isn't free and there is a bill to foot.  At some point, the percentages will be low enough to make the vaccinations the lesser of two evils.  The other being an unknown quantity to start with built on modelling.   This isnt to state that the process was corrupted, but just a plain old risk assessment using factors that may or may not have been true for all people.


Agree, the amount of young people with cardiac issues isn't normal.
Having a entire cardiac rehab group full of young people isn't normal and that's the staffs opinion not mine.
Not just myocarditis either, these are people with blood clots causing blockages.
Bells Palsy cases are 3.5 - 7 times higher after Covid vaccinations according to some studies.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00273-5/fulltext

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on April 11, 2022, 12:52:39 pm
A guy I work with was diagnosed with MS last year. Was on treatment and was doing well until...

4 weeks after his second shot he had a flare up.

Then he was doing well again until...

4 weeks after his 3rd shot he had a flare up.

His specialist has told him not to get anymore shots.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 11, 2022, 12:57:35 pm
Agree, the amount of young people with cardiac issues isn't normal.
Having a entire cardiac rehab group full of young people isn't normal and that's the staffs opinion not mine.
Not just myocarditis either, these are people with blood clots causing blockages.
Bells Palsy cases are 3.5 - 7 times higher after Covid vaccinations according to some studies.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00273-5/fulltext
That is not quite what the paper states, you need to be careful when quoting.

Expected occurrence during mRNA vaccine trials (recipients)Actual occurrence during mRNA vaccine trials (recipients)Actual occurrence during mRNA vaccine trials (doses)
∼3 to 7 cases (15–30 cases per year)∼21 cases (89 cases per year)∼10 cases (44 cases per year)
1:14 285 to 1:28 5701:14 285 to 1:28 5701:50001:10 000
During a trial some recipients get a placebo, and in the study there was no correction for recipients who previously suffered Bell's Palsy. It's expected that like Guillain-Barre Syndrome some infections, vaccinations and other causes of inflammation might trigger a reoccurrence. But these people will still investigate it because there is a correlation.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on April 11, 2022, 06:01:27 pm
As the mRNA vaccines don't contain live virus, would they even have the ability to kill facial nerves? What are the chances that an immune response generated by this vaccine would be so specific as to kill facial nerves and nothing else? It's all very speculative but very interesting all the same.

I don't bother getting flu shots anymore. I've had it twice. Both times afterwards i've got sick.
Flu shots don't contain a live virus, so i don't think i've gotten sick from that.
However, your body has to fight against that and gets weakened as a result, so if you were not 100% fit before, one of the numerous viruses/bateria can get a hold that would not have had the chance previously.

Could be the same thing with Covid and bells palsy....or whatever else you wanna bring up.

Its not directly CAUSED by the vaccine, but could be a knock on from getting it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 11, 2022, 06:38:24 pm
I don't bother getting flu shots anymore. I've had it twice. Both times afterwards i've got sick.
Flu shots don't contain a live virus, so i don't think i've gotten sick from that.
However, your body has to fight against that and gets weakened as a result, so if you were not 100% fit before, one of the numerous viruses/bateria can get a hold that would not have had the chance previously.

Could be the same thing with Covid and bells palsy....or whatever else you wanna bring up.

Its not directly CAUSED by the vaccine, but could be a knock on from getting it.
Daughter In Law had spinal taps which showed high inflammation markers which her doctors said they had seen before in younger women ages 20-30 about 3-4 weeks after the vaccine. She was treated with corticosteroid's and the markers were reduced and one side of her face came back to normal after contracting Bells Palsy. She had been transferred to another hospital that was specializing in this treatment for the condition after being in ER, no visitors, not even close relatives or my son allowed.
She had MRI brain scans and numerous auto immune tests, all negative for any other underlying causes.....no conclusive diagnosis and no denial that the booster could have caused issues just the information that the symptoms may persist for a while.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on April 11, 2022, 09:09:48 pm
Quote
Port Adelaide star Ollie Wines has dismissed suggestions the heart issue he suffered midway through last Thursday night’s loss to Melbourne was triggered by COVID vaccination.

The 27-year-old experienced nausea and dizziness during the AFL game and left Adelaide Oval at halftime to receive further treatment in hospital.

In the days since there has been speculation the heart issue may have been linked to myocarditis, an inflammation of the heart muscle that can potentially be caused by an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine.

However both Wines and his cardiologist have since ruled out that possibility after the star midfielder was released from hospital on Friday evening.

“It’s nothing to do with that (vaccines). It’s completely unrelated,” Wines told reporters on Monday.

“It’s more a heart rhythm issue that is pretty common in elderly people and elite athletes.

“Once it was explained to me it was very reassuring and there’s not too many long-term effects.

“The prognosis is really positive. I’ve got a few more tests to come and to see the cardiologist again but at this stage it’s not a big issue.”
Port Adelaide star Ollie Wines responds to vaccine speculation after heart problem during loss to Melbourne, 7News.com.au (https://7news.com.au/sport/afl/port-adelaide-star-ollie-wines-responds-to-vaccine-links-after-heart-problem-during-loss-to-melbourne-c-6409591)

Oh well, that was fun while it lasted.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on May 02, 2022, 08:47:05 am
I realise that anything COVID now seems old hat,  but we had a family member become a statistic overnight.  Stay safe people.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 02, 2022, 09:06:16 am
I realise that anything COVID now seems old hat,  but we had a family member become a statistic overnight.  Stay safe people.
Numbers climbing back up in the USA, may be time to dust off the mask for winter...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on May 02, 2022, 10:35:04 am
Their cases and death rates really hit the high in Jan / Feb 2022.  After losing over a million people, the graphs now see a dramatic fall.  But I've long given up in trusting the reports.

South Korea / Thailand are still getting hit hard.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 02, 2022, 10:36:41 am
I realise that anything COVID now seems old hat,  but we had a family member become a statistic overnight.  Stay safe people.
Very sorry to hear that ProfE, the truth doesn't fit with the desires of society or the pending Federal elections, but reality is a lot of genuine experts are still saying this COVID shizen is far far from over!

People should do themselves a big favour and keep staying on the side of caution.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 02, 2022, 10:38:04 am
Port Adelaide star Ollie Wines responds to vaccine speculation after heart problem during loss to Melbourne, 7News.com.au (https://7news.com.au/sport/afl/port-adelaide-star-ollie-wines-responds-to-vaccine-links-after-heart-problem-during-loss-to-melbourne-c-6409591)

Oh well, that was fun while it lasted.
We should be thankful not every AFL player is a Jones, I have to commend Wines for taking a higher road!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 02, 2022, 01:03:10 pm
I realise that anything COVID now seems old hat,  but we had a family member become a statistic overnight.  Stay safe people.
Sorry to hear that Prof
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on May 02, 2022, 01:36:43 pm
I realise that anything COVID now seems old hat,  but we had a family member become a statistic overnight.  Stay safe people.

Not good news!  Sorry to hear that,

The deaths keep mounting but rarely rate a mention now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 17, 2022, 08:53:38 pm
Covid back with 20 deaths in Vic the last 24 hours and a lot of new cases.
The AMA want us wearing masks again in more crowded locations like supermarkets etc...wonder if Dan will go back to some Covid measures or the federal and state political landscape will dim his enthusiasm...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on May 17, 2022, 09:23:35 pm
A decent federal gov would be leading and supporting the states not making them fly solo and then pinging off a few rounds at them when it suited them to do so.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on May 17, 2022, 09:41:09 pm
Covid back with 20 deaths in Vic the last 24 hours and a lot of new cases.
The AMA want us wearing masks again in more crowded locations like supermarkets etc...wonder if Dan will go back to some Covid measures or the federal and state political landscape will dim his enthusiasm...

Not until after the election
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 17, 2022, 09:59:26 pm
A decent federal gov would be leading and supporting the states not making them fly solo and then pinging off a few rounds at them when it suited them to do so.
I'm no fan of the Federal or Vic state government and both imho are more interested in votes than covid numbers and that AMA are obviously concerned that Covid numbers are increasing and I'd like to see some response from someone in charge at both levels of government.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 17, 2022, 10:00:16 pm
Not until after the election
My point...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on May 17, 2022, 10:39:20 pm
Just agreeing with you eb1.

A cynic would say, that even if we needed restrictions (im not convinced we do) they wouldn't implement any until next year
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 17, 2022, 10:47:23 pm
Just agreeing with you eb1.

A cynic would say, that even if we needed restrictions (im not convinced we do) they wouldn't implement any until next year
Agree...Covid restrictions are way too unpopular to be discussed/raised during an election period..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on May 17, 2022, 11:56:37 pm
Agree...Covid restrictions are way too unpopular to be discussed/raised during an election period..

But I thought it was all about the science EB 🤔 or did Dan forget again.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on May 18, 2022, 07:20:49 am
My family has been hit with influenza. Much worse than the covid we experienced. Took my 7 year old to monash hospital and they said they have been smashed with influenza. Kids were coming from Pakenham and Berwick because their hospital had a 6 hour wait.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 18, 2022, 07:50:36 am
My family has been hit with influenza. Much worse than the covid we experienced. Took my 7 year old to monash hospital and they said they have been smashed with influenza. Kids were coming from Pakenham and Berwick because their hospital had a 6 hour wait.


I started yesterday with I thought were cold/flu symptoms (tested neg in the morning), tested pos to Covid last night. My wife tested pos this morning. The flu is rampant however.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 18, 2022, 07:58:05 am
Covid back with 20 deaths in Vic the last 24 hours and a lot of new cases.
The AMA want us wearing masks again in more crowded locations like supermarkets etc...wonder if Dan will go back to some Covid measures or the federal and state political landscape will dim his enthusiasm...
Yep, I started wearing masks again last weekend when I heard some medicos on the radio warning people, you won't get the mask call from the politicians because of the election, they are all too gutless and won't offer a bipartisan approach which shows you just how little they really care for the general public. But I bet you will start to see them all starting to wear masks! ;)

The current problem is people getting a double whack, Flu and COVID, and the early indicators are it looks like if you had COVID makes you far more vulnerable to a severe dose of the Flu. Which is very bad news for everybody but especially those that can't be vaccinated. I suspect that is why I saw cars queuing at the COVID vaccination centre yesterday for the first time in many many weeks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 18, 2022, 11:13:17 am
My family has been hit with influenza. Much worse than the covid we experienced. Took my 7 year old to monash hospital and they said they have been smashed with influenza. Kids were coming from Pakenham and Berwick because their hospital had a 6 hour wait.


Yep, a few hospital ER's on bypass and lots of sick staff with influenza and CoVid, as LP rightly points out if you get the double whack then you are going to be very sick. Hope your son is feeling better, my daughter in law spent some time in Monash recently with Bells Palsy, its a very busy hospital who take a lot of overflow and difficult cases from the smaller privates...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on May 18, 2022, 03:37:37 pm
My family has been hit with influenza. Much worse than the covid we experienced. Took my 7 year old to monash hospital and they said they have been smashed with influenza. Kids were coming from Pakenham and Berwick because their hospital had a 6 hour wait.



Yep, flu went through our family too.
One of my kids had a temp of 40. I only managed 38.2.
Basically everyone had a week off (i only had a day, but i didn't need to see anyone to do my job so was back at it)
Neighbours kids got it a week after us.
Rippng through the schools.

I felt as bad as i have for 20-odd years since i last had the flu.
Haven't had covid yet *touch wood*
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on May 18, 2022, 03:49:45 pm
My cousins (two brothers) and their families are on their second week of iso in 5 months from covid.

I have been commuting too and from the city by public transport each and every business day since Feb 22, and have yet to spend significant time with a known positive case.





Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 18, 2022, 03:54:55 pm
I have been commuting too and from the city by public transport each and every business day since Feb 22, and have yet to spend significant time with a known positive case. 
That is probably good luck more than good design.

How is the CBD, back to normal?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on May 18, 2022, 04:11:28 pm
^^  It has been very busy.  Despite them saying that PT uptake has only returned to 70% I have crammed onto at least one service where I could smell the peoples armpits next to me.

The city is a mixed bag.  Busy some days.  Quiet others.  I dont venture too far from my city block though, and am in the Law precinct of the city. 

There has been at least one instance where I have failed to get a seat all the way from Greensborough on the Train on the way in.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 26, 2022, 10:10:29 am
I heard a disturbing figure yesterday, I'm not sure if it is true, but it highlights the vulnerability of the ill and elderly under the ignorance of the Federal authorities.

In the 2 years of lockdown under various state lead restrictions around the country a total of 2000 Australians perished from COVID.

In the 6 Months after the Feds forced the country to open the flood gates another 5000 have perished from COVID.

That's a hell of a price to pay just so some screaming numbats can freely wander down the street without a mask for a coffee and some baklava! But I suppose they don't care about the vulnerable who can't help themselves and need the communities protection, the numbats only have eyes on their own prize me thinks!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on May 26, 2022, 11:09:57 pm
I heard a disturbing figure yesterday, I'm not sure if it is true, but it highlights the vulnerability of the ill and elderly under the ignorance of the Federal authorities.

In the 2 years of lockdown under various state lead restrictions around the country a total of 2000 Australians perished from COVID.

In the 6 Months after the Feds forced the country to open the flood gates another 5000 have perished from COVID.

That's a hell of a price to pay just so some screaming numbats can freely wander down the street without a mask for a coffee and some baklava! But I suppose they don't care about the vulnerable who can't help themselves and need the communities protection, the numbats only have eyes on their own prize me thinks!

I heard Dr Karl discussing this figure on jjj last week
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on May 26, 2022, 11:29:02 pm
I heard a disturbing figure yesterday, I'm not sure if it is true, but it highlights the vulnerability of the ill and elderly under the ignorance of the Federal authorities.

In the 2 years of lockdown under various state lead restrictions around the country a total of 2000 Australians perished from COVID.

In the 6 Months after the Feds forced the country to open the flood gates another 5000 have perished from COVID.

That's a hell of a price to pay just so some screaming numbats can freely wander down the street without a mask for a coffee and some baklava! But I suppose they don't care about the vulnerable who can't help themselves and need the communities protection, the numbats only have eyes on their own prize me thinks!

Honest question, why choose baklava and not a slab of VB?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on May 26, 2022, 11:35:27 pm
Honest question, why choose baklava and not a slab of VB?


He couldn’t find a greek flag…
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on May 27, 2022, 12:02:01 am
Honest question, why choose baklava and not a slab of VB?

Baklava wins hands down any day of the week Thry!

It would be more of a contest if it was a slab of IPA  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 27, 2022, 08:10:07 am
Honest question, why choose baklava and not a slab of VB?
The strongest dissenting demographic and those mobilising the minorities are not the VB drinking trade demographic, in fact most tradies and truckies I talk to are fully supportive of the vaccinations and restrictions as are most of the general public. The more insidious group are the inner city dwellers / influencers who brunch daily, surviving on smashed avo and patisseries in between smashing a Pete Evan's magic potion and going to a spin class! They are there behind the scenes stoking the fires, but you won't find them on the front line, you'll find them nudging opinion with a precisely timed Instagram or Tik Tok post.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on May 27, 2022, 08:38:29 am
He couldn’t find a greek flag…

I was thinking this way he could line up anyone from the middle east who claims to make the best Baklava.

Meanwhile, during the pandemic we saw illegal gatherings in the Jewish community, the Indian community, the Islamic community, and yet here we are utilising inner city pastry diners smashed avocado eaters which is an aged demographic not an ethnic minority.  I think someone's bigotry is on show, and they hit a place that is universally disrespected.

When anyone likes to think about this, it might be worth remembering, that it was a Greek aged care facility that was hit hardest by the pandemic in the first year, thanks largely to the incompetence of those in charge of running hotel quarantine.




Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on May 27, 2022, 08:58:08 am
Thankfully, I've got a bloody good memory.  Not a pathetic "I don't recall" to save his sorry arse
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 27, 2022, 09:47:44 am
You can substitute baklava with any other inner city popular patisserie or other baked good you like, croissant, muffin, the message won't change, but at least pick one they actually purchase! ;)

And I always thought baklava was Turkish/ Ottoman, but I happy to be corrected if the Greeks claim to have invented it.

For the remainder of the paranoia on display, I can't be much assistance!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on May 27, 2022, 09:55:56 am
I'm guessing you've never been cross-examined capcom. O/wise you'd know that the biggest mistake you can make as a witness is to present a reconstructed memory as an actual memory. Justice Vasta of the Supreme Court of Queensland was sacked after the Court found that he'd given evidence in a proceeding with more certainty than his recollection should have allowed. You can either remember something or you can't. You might think that you'd remember everything if you had been in charge but I wonder if the early stages of the pandemic response would have allowed that. I'm guessing the usual procedures of minute-taking gave way to a whirlwind of decisions being made on the fly. Of course, Dan's political opponents would have been keen for him to be charged with perjury over his testimony and would have hoped Jennifer Coates would have gone to town on him. They also would no doubt have been trying to sic IBAC onto him as well as trying to encourage the DOJ and friendly police to take up the cudgels. Crickets on that score.  
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 20, 2022, 10:21:26 am
Just a few weeks back the Fed Bureaucrats handed out Australia Day gongs to the likes of Palaszczuk's crew for how well they "managed" COVID, now it comes out that what they were really good at, better than others, is cooking the books to make things look better than they actually were! :o Qld had 2.5x the number of infection cases that it actually claimed it had, and actually had a higher rate than NSW or Vic, which points to the effects of environment that impacts the disease.

Further, NSW, "The Gold Standard" as I recall someone labelling it, was only 2% better off than Vic despite the claims of how badly things were being managed south of the border! Geographically, using the Qld experience as a basis, NSW should have been far far better off and it wasn't!

How do they know all this to be true, the government approved studies into blood samples collected during the pandemic, which meant they can go back and match records against the figures!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on June 20, 2022, 10:32:11 am
NSW did all the heavy lifting with returned travellers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 20, 2022, 10:40:48 am
NSW did all the heavy lifting with returned travellers.
Yes, they lifted them onto a bus, train or plane and shipped them interstate!

The proven winner here is WA, lockdown 10x tougher than Vic, NSW or Qld, and only 1/10th the number of cases, it pretty much confirms lockdowns win in the short term!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on June 20, 2022, 11:00:05 am
Nice try.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 20, 2022, 11:44:19 am
Nice try.
 
 Numbers don't lie
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on June 20, 2022, 11:48:52 am

 Numbers don't lie

They don't, especially those returned traveller ones you forgot about.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 20, 2022, 12:05:32 pm
They don't, especially those returned traveller ones you forgot about.
But didn't Scomo stop the boats? :o ;D

Much of that previous reporting is based on political claims, I'm not sure how much of any of it can be trusted, and the current release of science data just proves how rubbery the political reporting can be.

Qld claimed it had just a handful of cases, and the right wing media types lapped it up as a failure of the south somehow distorting that into proof the lockdowns do not work, we now know that stellar Qld performance was based on creative accounting!

It seems out Qld took a Three-Wise-Monkeys approach to COVID management, don't test and you won't find!

For me the more important result of this is the impact of environment on the pandemic, it must surely tell us something, perhaps something that those living in the tropics already know!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: capcom on June 20, 2022, 01:40:56 pm
Just a few weeks back the Fed Bureaucrats handed out Australia Day gongs to the likes of Palaszczuk's crew for how well they "managed" COVID, now it comes out that what they were really good at, better than others, is cooking the books to make things look better than they actually were!

Surely you didn't expect the truth out of her lying mouth? 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 20, 2022, 03:22:56 pm
Surely you didn't expect the truth out of her lying mouth?
I'm not sure what to expect, but the insiders would know the truth and yet people are being given knighthoods based on performance assessments was built on lies!

It devalues the gongs, and makes it appear more like a bit of back scratching, you lie for me I gong you!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 20, 2022, 08:23:24 pm
This probably comes under the heading of panic behavior rather than CoVid, went to my local Coles and all the toilet paper was again missing on mass which is nothing new in these times but also went to the produce section and found all the bags of salad, mixed salad, spinach, rocket etc all gone as well. Cabbage was another green veg conspicuous by its absence, only the expensive fresh lettuce remained all be it in short supply.
I wonder if people in Ukraine behave this way or is it just our culture?....seems with the floods and rain that ruined the crops in Aus its also stopped replanting so this should go on for a while. Add the rising cost of fuel and energy and its going to be a long year ahead as well as with supply and demand issues with overseas products.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 20, 2022, 08:46:20 pm
I wonder if people in Ukraine behave this way or is it just our culture?....seems with the floods and rain that ruined the crops in Aus its also stopped replanting so this should go on for a while.
I'm very cynical, I've already heard stories this morning of people reselling to metropolitan restaurants over last weekend, doing an Arthur Daley with a box of greens! One of those wax coated cardboard boxes full of Iceberg lettuce for $120!

Our local supermarket was selling lettuce for $15/head.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 20, 2022, 09:23:17 pm
This probably comes under the heading of panic behavior rather than CoVid, went to my local Coles and all the toilet paper was again missing on mass which is nothing new in these times but also went to the produce section and found all the bags of salad, mixed salad, spinach, rocket etc all gone as well. Cabbage was another green veg conspicuous by its absence, only the expensive fresh lettuce remained all be it in short supply.
I wonder if people in Ukraine behave this way or is it just our culture?....seems with the floods and rain that ruined the crops in Aus its also stopped replanting so this should go on for a while. Add the rising cost of fuel and energy and its going to be a long year ahead as well as with supply and demand issues with overseas products.
We have our own veggie garden. We usually plant various types of lettuce, cherry tomato's, cucumber etc. For whatever reason we neglected it over the past 6 months. We have no lettuce, when normally there is too much. We could've paid off our mortgage with the prices its going for currently!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 20, 2022, 09:41:42 pm
I'm very cynical, I've already heard stories this morning of people reselling to metropolitan restaurants over last weekend, doing an Arthur Daley with a box of greens! One of those wax coated cardboard boxes full of Iceberg lettuce for $120!

Our local supermarket was selling lettuce for $15/head.
I was a Minder fan so I appreciate the analogy...nothing surprises about enterprising opportunists.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 20, 2022, 09:45:35 pm
We have our own veggie garden. We usually plant various types of lettuce, cherry tomato's, cucumber etc. For whatever reason we neglected it over the past 6 months. We have no lettuce, when normally there is too much. We could've paid off our mortgage with the prices its going for currently!
We always talk about our own veggie garden but never get around to it, maybe this spring is the time...
Seeds etc will probably be ten times the price...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on June 20, 2022, 09:46:37 pm
I decided to give our two vegie beds the winter off.  Bad choice this year!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on June 21, 2022, 08:38:42 am
We always talk about our own veggie garden but never get around to it, maybe this spring is the time...
Seeds etc will probably be ten times the price...

Veggie garden is a real passion of this little black duck. Always get my seeds from Eden Seeds Qld... heirloom. Cos lettuce is the only lettuce we grow... Iceberg has all the nutrition of a mouth full of air and water! Grow Rocket, two varieties, Kale and Coriander. Then carrots, beetroot, radish, basil, cauliflower and broccoli. Yum. In summer... pumpkin and no less than 15 different varieties of tomatoes... make our own tomato sauce and pasta sauce. Yum.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on June 21, 2022, 08:46:16 am
I love a vege garden.  I need to really feed and dig over my beds, as last few seasons disease has set in and ruined too many crops.  Also not getting as much produce as I used to.  Snails and slugs really cause a bit of grief to the garden at our place, so it makes it difficult.    Digging over has also become a bit harder because of knee surgery last year, so I need to give that a bit more time.  Might skip this summer and go again next year.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on June 21, 2022, 09:05:56 am
The crap weather has killed off all my winter produce, given up on it. 

Spent the last three weeks dealing with COVID,  have never been so ill. Missus was critically ill at one stage.   Now barely have the energy, will or motivation to get out of bed in the morning.

I don't understand how the world works anymore,  I don't understand why it's all too @$*ing hard out there.  Can't get this,  or that, no work,  no people.... It's like the whole world has just given up.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 21, 2022, 09:06:49 am
Veggie garden is a real passion of this little black duck. Always get my seeds from Eden Seeds Qld... heirloom. Cos lettuce is the only lettuce we grow... Iceberg has all the nutrition of a mouth full of air and water! Grow Rocket, two varieties, Kale and Coriander. Then carrots, beetroot, radish, basil, cauliflower and broccoli. Yum. In summer... pumpkin and no less than 15 different varieties of tomatoes... make our own tomato sauce and pasta sauce. Yum.
Nice, I'm envious....Agree on Cos vs Iceberg, can't get into Kale though and don't get the hype around it, yep nothing like the home made Sugo on your Pasta.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 21, 2022, 10:38:12 am
I had my fourth vaccination a couple of weeks ago. That makes 2 X AstraZeneca, 1 X Moderna and 1 X Pfizer.  Apart from feeling a bit seedy after my first AZ, I’ve had no side effects.

My only complaint is that my mobile phone coverage hasn’t improved 🤔
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 21, 2022, 11:27:54 am
I had my fourth vaccination a couple of weeks ago. That makes 2 X AstraZeneca, 1 X Moderna and 1 X Pfizer.  Apart from feeling a bit seedy after my first AZ, I’ve had no side effects.

My only complaint is that my mobile phone coverage hasn’t improved 🤔
The current vaccines are still all made OS, so you'll only receive foreign 5G transmissions, no use to any of us here in Oz!

Scomo wasn't switched onto having the chips changed to local transmission bands!  >:(
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on June 21, 2022, 01:31:26 pm
Nice, I'm envious....Agree on Cos vs Iceberg, can't get into Kale though and don't get the hype around it, yep nothing like the home made Sugo on your Pasta.

 :))  :)) agree, re Kale. I cheat... olive oil, dash of balsamic and generous grating of authentic aged remano parmagiano... yum.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on June 21, 2022, 01:35:56 pm
I had my fourth vaccination a couple of weeks ago. That makes 2 X AstraZeneca, 1 X Moderna and 1 X Pfizer.  Apart from feeling a bit seedy after my first AZ, I’ve had no side effects.

My only complaint is that my mobile phone coverage hasn’t improved 🤔

 :))  :)) likewise... symptoms and phone coverage ( ;D ) though the urge to bay at the moon is new...  :-[
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on June 21, 2022, 02:29:18 pm
:))  :)) agree, re Kale. I cheat... olive oil, dash of balsamic and generous grating of authentic aged remano parmagiano... yum.

I happened to catch Maggie Beer cooking kale on a TV program.  The most important step in the process of cooking kale is removing the petiole (thick white 'stem') and only using the blade (leafy part).  From memory, she blanched the leaves, then fried in EVOO with garlic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on June 21, 2022, 02:32:21 pm
My favourite pasta dishes my wife makes is with cavolo nero or broccoli rabe.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 21, 2022, 03:15:35 pm
........................., broccoli rabe.
I make a sort of mushroom, spinach and tomato salsa that can also use rabe or broccolini as an alternative to spinach, apparently spinach can disagree with some people if they eat too much and rabe is a good alternative. The good thing about using rabe versus spinach is that you can cook rabe longer and it will not break down, so it can be prepared earlier and left on low to keep warm, unlike spinach which is really cook and serve or it disintegrates.

In a little good quality butter sauté some garlic and chunky mushroom pieces on high heat, once they are caramelising add some whole cherry tomatoes to char, keep it all moving, when the mushrooms are reduced and tomatoes charred turn down the heat and stir through some rabe or spinach to steam on low with a lid on for a just a couple of minutes, put the whole lot of a thick slice of toast maybe with a drizzle of olive oil, and top with a poached egg!

I have used the same sauté to stir through and bulk up a pasta, again rabe works great because you can get it ready early and toss it through the pasta when the pasta is just perfectly ready to serve.

For people who do not like garlic but maybe like a bit of bite, swap the garlic out for a little dried chilli flakes or even some finely chopped fresh chilli. I find if I use just a little bit of dried chilli flakes(< 1/4 tsp) early in the sauté I don't have to and won't use as much salt, but I do find cracked pepper added late with the steamed greens also goes very well.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on June 21, 2022, 03:22:41 pm
I happened to catch Maggie Beer cooking kale on a TV program.  The most important step in the process of cooking kale is removing the petiole (thick white 'stem') and only using the blade (leafy part).  From memory, she blanched the leaves, then fried in EVOO with garlic.

I eat all my veggies raw, hence the 'toppings' but I do only eat the leaves. But Mrs Baggers prefers her kale cooked... so I'll use that recipe (I do the cooking at home, Mrs Baggers could burn water) and let her know it comes from Uncle David ;D  ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 21, 2022, 05:18:26 pm
My favourite pasta dishes my wife makes is with cavolo nero or broccoli rabe.
Yummm
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on June 22, 2022, 08:38:49 am
All that delicious food talk yesterday, and with Mrs Baggers away for the week cleaning up a work issue, guess who cooked up a feast for himself last night?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on June 22, 2022, 06:36:07 pm
All that delicious food talk yesterday, and with Mrs Baggers away for the week cleaning up a work issue, guess who cooked up a feast for himself last night?

Make sure you've got enough for the whole class Baggers.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on June 23, 2022, 02:26:51 pm
It is almost cold enough (and I have the time), to make Coq au vin.

This recipe is similar to what I make:
https://www.recipetineats.com/coq-au-vin/

I think a bottle of this may work well for the base:
https://www.aldi.com.au/en/groceries/liquor/wine/wine-detail/ps/p/humo-blanco-chilean-organic-cabernet-sauvignon-750/

I picked up a tray of drumsticks from the market for $10.00 a few weeks back. I will hopefully use them all. I will probably make a sweet potato mash, with side greens.

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 19, 2022, 04:00:11 pm
Governments are now pretty piss-weak at taking action in the COVID fight, it is paralysis by minority rule!

The irony is that many of the same people protesting COVID restrictions are highly likely to be the first in the line for COVID class actions and compensation, you know that is going to be true!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 19, 2022, 06:58:06 pm
Governments are now pretty piss-weak at taking action in the COVID fight, it is paralysis by minority rule!

The irony is that many of the same people protesting COVID restrictions are highly likely to be the first in the line for COVID class actions and compensation, you know that is going to be true!
People know the rules now.

The responsible ones, will be responsible.

The 'trouble-makers' will go about there lives risking themselves and those around them.
Darwins survival of the fittest in practice.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 19, 2022, 07:16:24 pm

Odds are most of us will be fine. 

Im still yet to catch covid and catch the train to and from the city and have done every business day since Feb 22nd.

Not sure what all the fuss is about.

I haven't had a booster since January and don't exactly live like a hermit.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 19, 2022, 07:21:50 pm
Odds are most of us will be fine. 

Im still yet to catch covid and catch the train to and from the city and have done every business day since Feb 22nd.

Not sure what all the fuss is about.

I haven't had a booster since January and don't exactly live like a hermit.
I haven't caught it yet either, nor my wife or kids.

See basically 20 different people every day.

Seem to be one of the last remaining from our extended families and group of friends.

I'm starting to wonder if maybe we've had it and just didn't notice.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on July 19, 2022, 08:26:30 pm
RSV put my youngest in hospital for 7 days, he required oxygen at one stage, he had a fever for 5 days with his temperature peaking at 39.8. Got out yesterday.

Covid gave him a mild temperature of 37.5 for one afternoon.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 20, 2022, 01:16:07 pm
@madbluboy‍  Glad to hear your young one is out, look after him.

Reality is none of the conditions can be consider in isolation, getting one can affect the other even if it's weeks or months apart. Worst case might be getting both at the same time which I believe is a major problem with those most susceptible.

It is a "because of" or "as well as" scenario, not "instead of" something!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 20, 2022, 01:55:37 pm
I spoke to soon.

One of my kids has covid now.
Wife and other kid are sick, but tested negative.
I've started with a sniffle this morning, haven't been tested yet as i just found out.

Yay.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 20, 2022, 02:14:18 pm
My son & I tested positive recently & did the week’s iso. I’d had a cough for a month beforehand which waxed and waned and I tested negative on a RAT. But then a month later I tested positive on a RAT at the tail end of the cough.

If the cough was unrelated to Covid, then I had no symptoms. If the coughing was a symptom, then it was unpleasant but more of an annoyance than anything. Mucous would accumulate in the upper respiratory tract and then I’d cough continually for what seemed like ages. Sometimes, I’d wonder when I’d be able to take the next breath. Unfortunately, that would interrupt my sleep. But it was no worse than a pre-Covid cold.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 20, 2022, 02:19:47 pm
I spoke to soon.

One of my kids has covid now.
Wife and other kid are sick, but tested negative.
I've started with a sniffle this morning, haven't been tested yet as i just found out.

Yay.
You should probably get the family in for PCRs. They’re more reliable as they “amplify” the sample. The downside is that the Health Dept will know of any positives and the isolation period is known as well. Fair bet that many who test positive on RATs don’t register that result with the Health Dept. imagine if the whole family has to observe the same isolation period …
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 20, 2022, 02:30:07 pm
Wishing all the sick folks and their loved ones a complete and speedy recovery.

Mrs Baggers and I have both had Covid (both also triple vaxxed) and think we were lucky. Bit of sniffle, odd cough for a day, loadsa sneezing ...but that was about it. Mrs Baggers reckons if she hadn't tested positive she'd not have known she had it! Wonder how many folks are in the same boat? This was about a month ago. I also got the flu (haven't had a flu shot) but, it, also was mild for a few days, bit tired, minimal phlegm. No temperature with either.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 20, 2022, 02:34:04 pm
You should probably get the family in for PCRs. They’re more reliable as they “amplify” the sample. The downside is that the Health Dept will know of any positives and the isolation period is known as well. Fair bet that many who test positive on RATs don’t register that result with the Health Dept. imagine if the whole family has to observe the same isolation period …
Wife and kids all had PCR's, only 1 came back back positive.
They are use RATs every few days, all been negative.....i only rat when i feel a little off, all been negative.

I'm (now) working from home today and tomorrow, but will make time for a PCR at some stage and suggested we test the wife and other kid again.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on July 20, 2022, 04:58:02 pm
It's running wild....and I reckon the number of folks with it is far greater than the 'official' figures indicate.

I was supposed to go in to hospital to have a bladder stone removed yesterday.
It's not causing me any great discomfort but it is fairly large.

I got a bit of a sniffle on Monday night that was till there yesterday morning so I did a RAT.
Positive.
Surgery cancelled and unable to be done for 6 weeks.
The thing that struck me was from just having a few sniffles at around 7.00am I was in bed with chills and fever by 10am (about the time I would have been leaving for the hospital)

I spent the day in bed and by this morning I was feeling much better.
Still a bit blocked up and have a cough, but hopefully that's as bad as it gets.
I'm double vaxed with double boosters.
I was also able to get onto my doctor and got a script for some anti-virals.

I registered the RAT...all very easy, and today I had a call from QLD health just to run through how I was feeling. They're going to call back Friday.

Assuming (and no guarantees ) the worst is over and I keep improving it was like a bad flu..but shorter duration.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 20, 2022, 05:03:36 pm
Assuming (and no guarantees ) the worst is over and I keep improving it was like a bad flu..but shorter duration.
Yes, this seems to be the most common trend, people feel pretty ordinary for a short period but recover more quickly than this years flu, this years flu seems to linger for weeks.

Of course, that is perhaps an average response, the extremes are rather more disconcerting because some people don't recover, while others roam around freely while completely asymptomatic and highly contagious.
 
Of course we all need to be careful how we discuss this, because in pretty much any forum you'll find the whole spectrum.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 20, 2022, 05:08:11 pm
PCR test done.

Now we play the waiting game.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 20, 2022, 06:13:21 pm
Let's hope governments have woken up to themselves and will invest heavily in health care... both in terms of services and staff conditions/remunerations.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 20, 2022, 06:57:56 pm
Let's hope governments have woken up to themselves and will invest heavily in health care... both in terms of services and staff conditions/remunerations.
Good luck, won't ever happen, health care staff are always expected to suffer for the good of the community and made to feel guilty if they complain.
Expect the high turnover of staff to continue and ER's to be flooded and one day it's going to lead to what happens in the USA where they have closing times for ER's and you have to line up again  the following day or go the privates where you have to pay a fee..
In NSW now they have standalone ER clinics where you can pay to be seen straight away with full facilities.
Think they are starting down here in Victoria too, guess where the best ER staff will be poached to work at. ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on July 20, 2022, 07:36:29 pm
In late January I posted that my wife and I had been laid low by a virus for over 3 weeks.  No temperature, no infection but feeling wretched with flu-like symptoms. Tests were negative.  At the time we had just had our third shot.

Three weeks ago we both went down again with the same symptoms but with the addition of a hacking cough which has kept us up at nights.  We were too ill to go out of the house and had to rely on our adult children to supply our needs.  RAT and PCR tests were negative.  We have both had the fourth shot and the flu shot.  As of today I think we have recovered from whatever virus it is.

My concern is that being in the senior age category our immune systems are losing or have already lost protection against Covid, yet there is no talk of a further booster shot.

We certainly live in anxious times.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 20, 2022, 09:22:03 pm
There are supposed to be new vaccines (rather than general boosters) on the way tailored to the BA.4 & BA.5 variants.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 20, 2022, 09:28:34 pm
By the way Macca, if you come down with anything in future, the advice is to get a PCR test immediately. That way, you’ll be able to receive anti-viral medications that are available to those who are 70+. Those anti-virals are most effective when administered within a few days of infection.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Macca37 on July 20, 2022, 11:12:21 pm
By the way Macca, if you come down with anything in future, the advice is to get a PCR test immediately. That way, you’ll be able to receive anti-viral medications that are available to those who are 70+. Those anti-virals are most effective when administered within a few days of infection.

Thanks for the advice, Mav.   I had not kept up to date with the anti-viral medications.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 21, 2022, 11:25:36 am
If you ever do test positive, Macca, whether by RAT or PCR, immediately arrange a Telehealth consultation with a GP (perhaps via the Coronavirus hotline?) and obtain a prescription for the oral anti-virals. The GP can send that to your Chemist electronically and the medication can be picked up by friends or family (or maybe even DoorDash or the like). Speed is the key for best results.

There’s an article in The Guardian highlighting the lack of advertising concerning the oral anti-virals and other Covid matters and the Govt says that’ll roll out soon, so you wouldn’t be the only one who hasn’t heard about them.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 21, 2022, 11:58:02 am
In NSW now they have standalone ER clinics where you can pay to be seen straight away with full facilities.
Think they are starting down here in Victoria too, guess where the best ER staff will be poached to work at. ?
It's a bad situation, because they have no obligation to accept patients.

I know a friend who had COVID recently, went to one of those clinics for express treatment and was turned away to the government run clinic. They then went to a local GP and was also turned away to the government run clinic. In the end they had to do a telehealth appointment to get to the next step. It was just a waste of the fee, because the next step is going to the government run clinic for a PCR test.

The clinics are using telehealth like a triage, and the private ER's are cherry-picking who's money they want to take!

It's all very Americanised, and I can see it causing some major problems in the public hospitals.

Interestingly, when I had my stent fitted I was warned things were heading this way by the public cardiology nurse. Initially I went to a private hospital with it's own cardiology unit and catheter lab as per my insurance policy, etc., but then got transferred to a public hospital as a private patient. The staff at the public hospital says it happens all the time, the less profitable cases and the cases that are likely to be problematic, get handballed to the public system. The cardiology nurse said you are better off going private in public from the get go, because if there are any unexpected problems that is where you end up anyway.

The UK model is much better than the American model, but the American model is what makes private investors wealthy, and politicians take the path of least resistance or cost. The politicians go where their bread will be buttered in the future!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 21, 2022, 12:10:30 pm
The biggest issues with hospital, is that they are run by staff who are well versed in running medical care, but not how to run an efficient business.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 21, 2022, 12:13:07 pm
The biggest issues with hospital, is that they are run by staff who are well versed in running medical care, but not how to run an efficient business.
I get that, but I gather if you were crook you would rather be treated by a experienced health care worker than a bean counter! ;)

I think the desire to make everything a profit centre is a major cause of modernity's ills.

So should some things just be a service that is financially underwritten by society?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 21, 2022, 12:19:06 pm
I get that, but I gather if you were crook you would rather be treated by a experienced health care worker than a bean counter! ;)

I think the desire to make everything a profit centre is a major cause of modernity's ills.

So should some things just be a service that is financially underwritten by society?

Of course, why would I want medical treatment from a bean counter?

A bean counter is more adequately positioned to run a business though.  There is an over representation of health care professionals in management roles, when they probably should stick to managing patient care.  Most of them arent good people leaders let alone business leaders. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 21, 2022, 12:35:01 pm
Of course, why would I want medical treatment from a bean counter?

A bean counter is more adequately positioned to run a business though.  There is an over representation of health care professionals in management roles, when they probably should stick to managing patient care.  Most of them arent good people leaders let alone business leaders.
I get it, but if the bias was the other way with the bean counters governing the health care it might be far worse!

Is the experienced health worker who is a inefficient manager the lesser of two evils?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 21, 2022, 12:39:55 pm
Test has come back negative.

I guess thats a good thing, but i feel a lot worse than my boy who is positive. He's running around like nothing.

Not sure how accurate these tests are with the latest variant as everyone in the house is sick at the same time, but only one of us is positive and i find it hard to believe that he has kept it to himself. Sharing beds, drinks and food, but hasn't transmitted it?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 21, 2022, 08:13:04 pm
It's a bad situation, because they have no obligation to accept patients.

I know a friend who had COVID recently, went to one of those clinics for express treatment and was turned away to the government run clinic. They then went to a local GP and was also turned away to the government run clinic. In the end they had to do a telehealth appointment to get to the next step. It was just a waste of the fee, because the next step is going to the government run clinic for a PCR test.

The clinics are using telehealth like a triage, and the private ER's are cherry-picking who's money they want to take!

It's all very Americanised, and I can see it causing some major problems in the public hospitals.

Interestingly, when I had my stent fitted I was warned things were heading this way by the public cardiology nurse. Initially I went to a private hospital with it's own cardiology unit and catheter lab as per my insurance policy, etc., but then got transferred to a public hospital as a private patient. The staff at the public hospital says it happens all the time, the less profitable cases and the cases that are likely to be problematic, get handballed to the public system. The cardiology nurse said you are better off going private in public from the get go, because if there are any unexpected problems that is where you end up anyway.

The UK model is much better than the American model, but the American model is what makes private investors wealthy, and politicians take the path of least resistance or cost. The politicians go where their bread will be buttered in the future!
If you need Cardiology care public is the way to go, private in a public hospital setting doesn't mean you are guaranteed anything extra , it's all about availability and being a cardiac patient you will get your own room initially anyway after a stent insertion.
The public hospital I was in for my stent begged me to allow them to charge me as a Private patient as they needed the money.
They agreed to pay my excess so keen were they to get the private claim across the line. Fully agree it's going the way of the USA and even the meds were on the claim invoice.
The care was first class in the public hospital I was in and the staff excellent but you just worry for the future as they were all over worked and often doing double shifts due to the lack of qualified replacements given Cardiology is a specialist area..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 21, 2022, 09:49:17 pm
Test has come back negative.

I guess thats a good thing, but i feel a lot worse than my boy who is positive. He's running around like nothing.

Not sure how accurate these tests are with the latest variant as everyone in the house is sick at the same time, but only one of us is positive and i find it hard to believe that he has kept it to himself. Sharing beds, drinks and food, but hasn't transmitted it?
Maybe your boy is the last in the family to get it and the rest of you had it without symptoms recently?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 22, 2022, 08:34:40 am
I get it, but if the bias was the other way with the bean counters governing the health care it might be far worse!

Is the experienced health worker who is a inefficient manager the lesser of two evils?

LP, this argument seems to be escaping you, which is ironic given you bleat about the AFL pigs feeding at the trough.

The health care version is the same thing.  Matron runs the hospital.  Its been the case for 60 years.

Thing is, matron doesnt understand macroeconomics, and how efficiency is bourne out of some of the transformational shift that technology can bring, BUT, they dont have time to do it.

They dont have time for it, because they dont make time for it.  Why do you think that they end up paying agency staff exhorbitant figures to fill holes?

The bean counters arent being listened to, because there is no room to negotiate on patient care.

Finally, there are hospitals out there that do have a relatively good amount of business acumen in the executive director levels, but they often report in to a nurse, and then you get wildly swinging strategy as a result.

FWIW, working in an IT department at a hospital, there are too many clinical people making business decisions, about a clinical information system, because they dont understand that the system cannot do the work for the clinician, but thats what they are trying to create. 

Finally, nepotism, and jobs for the "boys" is rife in the public healthcare space. 

My wife and I have both worked in a variety of hospital settings.  The majority of my experience is public, and management left a lot to be desired particularly when it came to process and procedure, especially when their were ex clinical staff turned into business leaders, rather than business leaders leading clinical staff.  Long story short, the best run hospital my Mrs worked for, had a history of appointing DOCTORS in the role of CEO and it was a private hospital, because most of them run their private practises BEFORE running an entire hospital, or health network, which means they know the tricks of the trade on how to get patients in, how to get them good care, whilst still running an efficient business.

She has been in a public institution for 6 months, and there is institutional push back against reforms that will yield performance improvement because of long standing cultural push back.

Good business leaders, defer to their subject matter experts when decisions can impact the business adversely.  Bad ones, dictate.   Guess which description matches the public hospital experience??  ;) 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 22, 2022, 08:39:39 am
Maybe your boy is the last in the family to get it and the rest of you had it without symptoms recently?
Seems counter intuitive since we are all sick now.
Not impossible, but improbable.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 22, 2022, 11:13:24 am
LP, this argument seems to be escaping you, which is ironic given you bleat about the AFL pigs feeding at the trough.
I think that's a huge stretch to associate Matrons climbing the career ladder with AFL Past Players getting jobs for the boys.

I've a relative who was a "Matron" and became a senior business manager at a major Melbourne Metro hospital, it was a 24x7 job overloaded with bureaucracy and a continual ongoing battle against bean counters putting profit before health care. Business hours, after hours, weekends, holidays, while in transit, 24x7 it never stopped, there was never any clocking off. Her priority was to preserve the level of care, first and foremost, that is the function of hospitals, not creating jobs, not creating profits, not paying bonusses or dividends.

In my opinion she could have left health and earned far more doing a far easier job in corporate or industrial circles, so I've nothing but admiration for those who do this type of work with a relatively extreme workload and usually at far less remuneration than some suited up bureaucrat or executive bean counter.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 22, 2022, 09:17:21 pm
I think that's a huge stretch to associate Matrons climbing the career ladder with AFL Past Players getting jobs for the boys.

I've a relative who was a "Matron" and became a senior business manager at a major Melbourne Metro hospital, it was a 24x7 job overloaded with bureaucracy and a continual ongoing battle against bean counters putting profit before health care. Business hours, after hours, weekends, holidays, while in transit, 24x7 it never stopped, there was never any clocking off. Her priority was to preserve the level of care, first and foremost, that is the function of hospitals, not creating jobs, not creating profits, not paying bonusses or dividends.

In my opinion she could have left health and earned far more doing a far easier job in corporate or industrial circles, so I've nothing but admiration for those who do this type of work with a relatively extreme workload and usually at far less remuneration than some suited up bureaucrat or executive bean counter.
sounds like a megalomaniac who wouldn't delegate to me.

The hospital runs with or without the executive team.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 22, 2022, 10:12:19 pm
sounds like a megalomaniac who wouldn't delegate to me.
Hard to delegate when the bean counters leave you understaffed. ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 23, 2022, 07:08:08 am
Hard to delegate when the bean counters leave you understaffed. ;)
lp the ones in charge are the ones who dictate how the money is misused.  The bean counters dictate the budget for each department.

At the end of the financial year they all churn through their annual budget spending money on whatever they can, so they don't lose their budget for next year.

What you're implying that business people can't run a business that they aren't subject matter experts in.

I.e.  Kernahan was better equipped to run Carlton than Luke Sayers is.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 23, 2022, 01:02:59 pm
What you're implying that business people can't run a business that they aren't subject matter experts in.
Not at all that conclusion is an assumption you have made.

My perspective is that you are better off being cared for by and under the guidance of a person who exclusively has your health and wellbeing prioritised over profit, rather than someone who is going to be paid a bonus for cutting costs or increasing margin.

Most health managers / executives are not health care workers, they are business people. I know the top person at three different Melb hospitals, through my R&D work on additive printing for replacement hips and cranial caps for cancer or acute injuries, and not one is a doctor or Matron, they are all professional business types mostly that have come out of bureaucracy although one is a former industrial pharmacy executive.

I don't know a Matron on the planet who would accept cutting nursing staffing given the option, they do not do that job for decades first to get were they get by being focussed on finances, and I can't say I ever meet a nurse that got into the gig for the cash!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 23, 2022, 01:42:23 pm
sounds like a megalomaniac who wouldn't delegate to me.

The hospital runs with or without the executive team.


Thry I have a female friend who has just left the hospital industry mainly because of (her words not mine) "too many female managers who were utter bitches that I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire".
She reckons she will never work for a female manager ever again.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on July 23, 2022, 03:20:54 pm
Thry I have a female friend who has just left the hospital industry mainly because of (her words not mine) "too many female managers who were utter bitches that I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire".
She reckons she will never work for a female manager ever again.
You do realise females can be corporate psychopaths too, it's not a gender specific or exclusive condition!

A massive problem right at the moment is quotas, the best females are not getting the jobs, because the psychopaths without restraint or morality leverage the politically correct woke quota rules to get jobs they aren't really qualified to do. We saw A-Grade examples of that in the bureaucracy during the pandemic. Once in the henhouse, the psychopath wreaks havoc.

I'm not a fan of quotas is such critical roles, it should be the person who is best suited / qualified to do the job.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on July 23, 2022, 04:00:24 pm
I'd be digging a little deeper before I came to any conclusions based on anecdotes. Myself, my brother, and my wife have all been in the workforce a long time, and we've all had male and female managers (my brother works in the medical industry). Each of us can point to males and females that have been great, and also those that have been lousy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on July 23, 2022, 04:07:16 pm
In 2015 my oldest was rushed to the RCH as soon as he was born and spent the first 2 months of his life there.
In 2017 my youngest was rushed to the RCH the day after he was born and spent his first month of his life there and that year a further 2 months from multiple stays.

The hospital then was unbelievable, you couldn't ask for better care.

Last year my youngest spent a week there and my wife and I thought wow this place has slipped a bit, the care not as good as it once was.
Last week he was there again and the care was terrible. They have hardly any nursing staff and the ones that are there don't care.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on July 23, 2022, 09:02:51 pm
Not at all that conclusion is an assumption you have made.

My perspective is that you are better off being cared for by and under the guidance of a person who exclusively has your health and wellbeing prioritised over profit, rather than someone who is going to be paid a bonus for cutting costs or increasing margin.

Most health managers / executives are not health care workers, they are business people. I know the top person at three different Melb hospitals, through my R&D work on additive printing for replacement hips and cranial caps for cancer or acute injuries, and not one is a doctor or Matron, they are all professional business types mostly that have come out of bureaucracy although one is a former industrial pharmacy executive.

I don't know a Matron on the planet who would accept cutting nursing staffing given the option, they do not do that job for decades first to get were they get by being focussed on finances, and I can't say I ever meet a nurse that got into the gig for the cash!
what?

Ive just stated that hospitals have too many clinical staff in senior leadership positions (nurses run hospitals) and you've argued black and blue against it, just to state im making an assumption about what you're saying. 

Make up your mind.  Clinical people are highly specialised and not well rounded individuals.  Notoriously bad at managing their own finances let alone running a hospital.

I have the utmost respect for them and their profession, BUT, they're road to management is too linear and not rounded enough.

Thats why they make poor business leaders.  You want to tell me why thats wrong or just want to slap off bean counters again?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on July 23, 2022, 09:48:12 pm
In 2015 my oldest was rushed to the RCH as soon as he was born and spent the first 2 months of his life there.
In 2017 my youngest was rushed to the RCH the day after he was born and spent his first month of his life there and that year a further 2 months from multiple stays.

The hospital then was unbelievable, you couldn't ask for better care.

Last year my youngest spent a week there and my wife and I thought wow this place has slipped a bit, the care not as good as it once was.
Last week he was there again and the care was terrible. They have hardly any nursing staff and the ones that are there don't care.



Hopefully your kids are all ok now mate.  Nothing worse then when your child needs a stay in hospital.

This state is a shambles on the health care front and while it’s being led by a narcissistic leader with amnesia and party that has again been found to be corrupt to the core sadly all we get is excuses rather then any real plan to improve things. Ambo waiting times have never been so bad. Not a time to have a heart attack or a sick child.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 24, 2022, 10:47:31 am
In 2015 my oldest was rushed to the RCH as soon as he was born and spent the first 2 months of his life there.
In 2017 my youngest was rushed to the RCH the day after he was born and spent his first month of his life there and that year a further 2 months from multiple stays.

The hospital then was unbelievable, you couldn't ask for better care.

Last year my youngest spent a week there and my wife and I thought wow this place has slipped a bit, the care not as good as it once was.
Last week he was there again and the care was terrible. They have hardly any nursing staff and the ones that are there don't care.



A system under extreme pressure will bring out the worst in some (resorting to type) and the best in others. But everyone has a limit in terms of workload and expectation.

The first question I ask myself is how the hell did our health care system become so vulnerable, so below par when really needed to stand up? You probably have to go back to when Kennett tore the guts out of health care (mental health included) to satisfy the bottom line (loot). Then successive governments not being bold, caring or visionary enough to effect meaningful repairs and growth.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 24, 2022, 11:03:43 am
I'd be digging a little deeper before I came to any conclusions based on anecdotes. Myself, my brother, and my wife have all been in the workforce a long time, and we've all had male and female managers (my brother works in the medical industry). Each of us can point to males and females that have been great, and also those that have been lousy.

Yep.

Reality is that health care workers (physical and mental health) are no different to motor mechanics, chefs, CEOs, builders, IT professionals, etc. They're all people and there are good and bad, regardless of how highly trained they are.

I could trot out anecdotes galore to support each side of the ledger.

I know a really experienced, highly trained clinical psychologist working at a major Melbourne hospital who I wouldn't send a cabbage to for help. I know a neurosurgeon working out of Cabrini who I wouldn't trust to operate on separating garlic cloves. Yet I know an Orthopaedic surgeon working out of Frankston Private, a Psychiatrist working out of the Albert Road Clinic, etc. who I'd recommend, easily, to my daughters. And the motor mechanic who services my chariot is a bloody ripper... and I've encountered breathtaking incompetence from some along the journey.

Shop around. Letters after someone's name are no guarantee at all.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 24, 2022, 11:39:05 am
A system under extreme pressure will bring out the worst in some (resorting to type) and the best in others. But everyone has a limit in terms of workload and expectation.

The first question I ask myself is how the hell did our health care system become so vulnerable, so below par when really needed to stand up? You probably have to go back to when Kennett tore the guts out of health care (mental health included) to satisfy the bottom line (loot). Then successive governments not being bold, caring or visionary enough to effect meaningful repairs and growth.

Some people forget that the health care system is made up of people.
People have been under ever increasing amounts of stress.
People have been basically underpaid for a long time.
People have started choosing quality of life over the stresses of working within the health care system.

I know of 2 people who took early retirement.
1 who started having babies again to get themselves out of that system.
Several others who have contemplated a completely different career path.

Don't underestimate the fragilty of people in the healthcare system.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on July 24, 2022, 12:01:31 pm
Some people forget that the health care system is made up of people.
People have been under ever increasing amounts of stress.
People have been basically underpaid for a long time.
People have started choosing quality of life over the stresses of working within the health care system.

I know of 2 people who took early retirement.
1 who started having babies again to get themselves out of that system.
Several others who have contemplated a completely different career path.

Don't underestimate the fragilty of people in the healthcare system.


Well said, K.

This is a matter close to my heart. Having worked in mental health for 30 years, and still doing so, the human factor is tantamount to moi in any work situation. When people in health care work, they give... relentlessly... of themselves. To me these are about the most valuable folks on this ball in the sky. The people in health and education should be cherished and relentlessly acknowledged, valued and supported with all we have. The demands are beyond most folk's comprehension.

I've been burnt out and fckd up on a few occasions, which was one of the motivators to writing novels and screenplays... an outlet that harnesses the imagination and provides excellent escape from the incredible demands of care. Rewarding demands, and I wouldn't have it any other way, but demands that necessitate other outlets to prevent burnout and maintain life balance/enjoyment.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on July 24, 2022, 12:06:50 pm
Baggers,  isn't it true that in any large group of people you will find a range of personality types, usually in a bell curve type distribution.  I suppose a particular profession may attract particular types so bell curves may vary.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on July 24, 2022, 04:14:52 pm
Interesting perspective:
‘Health system in distress’: how ambulance ramping became a major problem, The Guardian. (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/may/07/health-system-in-distress-how-ambulance-ramping-became-a-major-problem)

In short, ambulance ramping is a problem across the States and increasing the number of ambulances isn’t the silver bullet. Access bottlenecks due to shortages of hospital staff and beds and the aged care sector’s reliance on hospitals were exacerbated by Covid.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on July 24, 2022, 04:29:26 pm
Interesting perspective:
‘Health system in distress’: how ambulance ramping became a major problem, The Guardian. (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/may/07/health-system-in-distress-how-ambulance-ramping-became-a-major-problem)

In short, ambulance ramping is a problem across the States and increasing the number of ambulances isn’t the silver bullet. Access bottlenecks due to shortages of hospital staff and beds and the aged care sector’s reliance on hospitals were exacerbated by Covid.

I know someone who works in a hospital who liases with ambulance services as part of their job to decide what types of patients they must take at any given time and which patients they must ship off to other hospitals.
So....heart attacks might be high risk, but falls or concussions etc might go somewhere else.
These decisions are ever changing depending on how each hospital is coping at any given time.

Hospitals get overwhelmed with ambulances dropping off patients. The thing is an ambulance cannot simply drop a patient at the door and leave for the next one. They have to wait until the patient gets signed over. If there is 1 (or 2) people whose job that is to take a patient, assess them and send them where they need to be and then get back down to the next ambulance, that takes some time.
If there are 17 ambulances out the front, that takes a lot of time to get through.
That time is people waiting for an ambulance elsewhere.

You can have 3000 ambulances out there, but if they are stuck at hospitals waiting to drop off patients, it doesn't help the system.

You need to eliminate the bottle neck first....and the bottle neck is at hospitals.

Its been the problem all along, Covid is overwhelming the hospitals.....and everyone else is suffering as a result.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on August 15, 2022, 01:35:55 pm
So Brett Sutton has just announced in his own words ‘despite 2, 3 or 4 booster shots of covid vaccine the vaccine has now shown that it does not assist in preventing covid’

Who would have thought!!

So in other words we are all responsible for our own protection of covid and whether the guy beside you is vaccinated or not your risk of contracting covid does not change.

With that in mind why were unvaccinated forced to leave their positions as nurses, policemen construction, emergency works - oh except those in law (they were exempt) wonder why that was…….but that’s another story.  And unfairly blokes like Jones or Djokovic that decided they don’t want the vaccine were treated by the majority as outcasts and scumbags who only care about themself.

Our healthcare and emergency services are undermanned and under enormous pressure and how much I’m of that is due to not allowing the unvaccinated to keep their position, a position we need them more then ever now.

The pollies are a disgrace they lie stretch the truth deceive then when they are found out they are never dealt with they way the general public would have been and find a way to just continue on. They chop  and change the rules as it suits them and then demand we take their ‘health advice’ as though it’s gospel. Nothing can be further from the truth. I was conned into having the first double dose and still struggle with some of the side effects and have covid twice and as well as covid I’ve had the flu twice!  My last ‘cold’ I reckon was at least 3 years ago and don’t even remember when I had the flu last.
Got the vaccine and had them both twice in the last 18 months!! Really makes you wonder…..

Absolutely disgraceful how this pandemic has been handled and how those who stood their ground were treated. Time to admit they got it wrong and give the unvaccinated their jobs back.


 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 15, 2022, 01:43:40 pm
So Brett Sutton has just announced in his own words ‘despite 2, 3 or 4 booster shots of covid vaccine the vaccine has now shown that it does not assist in preventing covid’

Who would have thought!!

So in other words we are all responsible for our own protection of covid and whether the guy beside you is vaccinated or not your risk of contracting covid does not change.

With that in mind why were unvaccinated forced to leave their positions as nurses, policemen construction, emergency works - oh except those in law (they were exempt) wonder why that was…….but that’s another story.  And unfairly blokes like Jones or Djokovic that decided they don’t want the vaccine were treated by the majority as outcasts and scumbags who only care about themself.

Our healthcare and emergency services are undermanned and under enormous pressure and how much I’m of that is due to not allowing the unvaccinated to keep their position, a position we need them more then ever now.

The pollies are a disgrace they lie stretch the truth deceive then when they are found out they are never dealt with they way the general public would have been and find a way to just continue on. They chop  and change the rules as it suits them and then demand we take their ‘health advice’ as though it’s gospel. Nothing can be further from the truth. I was conned into having the first double dose and still struggle with some of the side effects and have covid twice and as well as covid I’ve had the flu twice!  My last ‘cold’ I reckon was at least 3 years ago and don’t even remember when I had the flu last.
Got the vaccine and had them both twice in the last 18 months!! Really makes you wonder…..

Absolutely disgraceful how this pandemic has been handled and how those who stood their ground were treated. Time to admit they got it wrong and give the unvaccinated their jobs back.

This has been going on for the better part of 2.5 years now, but some people are still missing the basics.

No, it doesn't prevent Covid. Nobody said it did. You may be prevented from getting it, but at a minimum...
It limits the intensity,
which limits the amount of people who end up in ICU
which limits the amount of people we need to find a bed for
which limits the amount of people who miss out on a bed
which limits the amount of people who die.

Which in turn eases the strain on the health care system so people who have 'regular issues' like heart attacks can actually get an ambulance when they need one, which again, limits the people who die.

But sure....its all BS.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 15, 2022, 02:13:33 pm
Shawny, is there a link available where I can read this quote from Brett Sutton (the one in your first paragraph) ?

I had a quick look, but found nothing. It's a pretty strange thing to say for someone in his position.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 15, 2022, 02:18:34 pm
I think Shawny has fallen foul of a beat up about Sutton's community action statement that was rolled out in the last week of July. There are a bunch of hack stories going around, written word and video, paraphrasing and selectively summarising what Sutton had to say.

In that statement Sutton said is was critical to get your 3rd or 4th boosters to prevent/reduce COVID causing ICU admissions, and he called for the public to take affirmative action on masks, social distancing and the like to minimise COVID numbers. After all, it is a numbers game. But the get your boosters part is being edited out, and the hacks are again running with the "vaccines don't stop COVID" shizen yet again, despite unequivocal evidence that the vaccines save lives!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 15, 2022, 02:18:47 pm
This has been going on for the better part of 2.5 years now, but some people are still missing the basics.

No, it doesn't prevent Covid. Nobody said it did. You may be prevented from getting it, but at a minimum...
It limits the intensity,
which limits the amount of people who end up in ICU
which limits the amount of people we need to find a bed for
which limits the amount of people who miss out on a bed
which limits the amount of people who die.

Which in turn eases the strain on the health care system so people who have 'regular issues' like heart attacks can actually get an ambulance when they need one, which again, limits the people who die.

But sure....its all BS.
I get the theory about limiting the body count with more jabs but the ambulance system is broken in Victoria with or without CoVid and the ER's are full to overflowing with ramping at extreme levels despite the Governments denials.
Staff are leaving in droves and we have Private Hospitals now being being recruited and forced to close wards for patients to take up the slack and supply facilities and staff.
The reality is more people are passing due to CoVid with the new strains than the original but no one wants to talk about it
or do anything to fix the system and its the Herd mentality approach and when its the economy vs losing some of the herd the economy wins...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 15, 2022, 02:19:55 pm
I get the theory about limiting the body count with more jabs but the ambulance system is broken in Victoria with or without CoVid and the ER's are full to overflowing with ramping at extreme levels despite the Governments denials.
Staff are leaving in droves and we have Private Hospitals now being being recruited and forced to close wards for patients to take up the slack and supply facilities and staff.
The reality is more people are passing due to CoVid with the new strains than the original but no one wants to talk about it
or do anything to fix the system and its the Herd mentality approach and when its the economy vs losing some of the herd the economy wins...

100% the ambulance system is broken.

The last thing they need though is more fuel on the fire....which Covid adds.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 15, 2022, 02:23:04 pm
100% the ambulance system is broken.

The last thing they need though is more fuel on the fire....which Covid adds.
Sutton was actually addressing this issue in his community action statement. He wants the public to act in the absence of political action, to take all possible precautions to diminish COVID infections, reducing strain on the health system.

Don't wait to be told to wear a mask, vaccinate or isolate, do it now voluntarily for the sake of the public health system!

If people think the health system is bad, wait and see what happens in education over the coming months, it's been completely mismanaged with the top end keeping their high wages through COVID while the grunt level gets overloaded / offloaded. The grunt is going to leave in droves when this school year is done!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 15, 2022, 03:41:10 pm
I think Shawny has fallen foul of a beat up about Sutton's community action statement that was rolled out in the last week of July. There are a bunch of hack stories going around, written word and video, paraphrasing and selectively summarising what Sutton had to say.

In that statement Sutton said is was critical to get your 3rd or 4th boosters to prevent/reduce COVID causing ICU admissions, and he called for the public to take affirmative action on masks, social distancing and the like to minimise COVID numbers. After all, it is a numbers game. But the get your boosters part is being edited out, and the hacks are again running with the "vaccines don't stop COVID" shizen yet again, despite unequivocal evidence that the vaccines save lives!

Thanks.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 15, 2022, 04:14:11 pm
I think Shawny has fallen foul of a beat up about Sutton's community action statement that was rolled out in the last week of July. There are a bunch of hack stories going around, written word and video, paraphrasing and selectively summarising what Sutton had to say.

In that statement Sutton said is was critical to get your 3rd or 4th boosters to prevent/reduce COVID causing ICU admissions, and he called for the public to take affirmative action on masks, social distancing and the like to minimise COVID numbers. After all, it is a numbers game. But the get your boosters part is being edited out, and the hacks are again running with the "vaccines don't stop COVID" shizen yet again, despite unequivocal evidence that the vaccines save lives!

Yep, it's not about vaccines preventing Covid, it's how about how they reduce the severity of Covid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 15, 2022, 05:18:30 pm
Let’s hope Flyboy will stop by to update us on how well Ivermectin works on the new Omicron subvariants.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 15, 2022, 05:56:04 pm
Still havent tested positive after 8 months of catching PT to and from the city.  In amongst a bunch of kids, going past the Austin Hospital, continuing past Flinders street station, going to Flagstaff.

Not sure whats going on, but I hope I get it whilst they still make you isolate for 7 days because I forsee a time when they stay isolate only whilst symptomatic.  Not sure how under pressure hospitals are either.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 15, 2022, 06:00:57 pm
Still havent tested positive after 8 months of catching PT to and from the city.  In amongst a bunch of kids, going past the Austin Hospital, continuing past Flinders street station, going to Flagstaff.

Not sure whats going on, but I hope I get it whilst they still make you isolate for 7 days because I forsee a time when they stay isolate only whilst symptomatic.  Not sure how under pressure hospitals are either.

You might be one of the those cats, 3 Leos, who is asymptomatic. Mrs Baggers tested positive once with no symptoms at all.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 15, 2022, 06:19:30 pm
You might be one of the those cats, 3 Leos, who is asymptomatic. Mrs Baggers tested positive once with no symptoms at all.
Ive been testing twice a week since I changed jobs.  Hospital never cared whether or not we were testing at all.

NFI.

Don't really understand what all the fuss is about.  Suspect that a lot of people are leveraging the climate to take advantage of sick leave.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 15, 2022, 07:58:46 pm
Ive been testing twice a week since I changed jobs.  Hospital never cared whether or not we were testing at all.

NFI.

Don't really understand what all the fuss is about.  Suspect that a lot of people are leveraging the climate to take advantage of sick leave.
Its called taking the piss :D
And I dont suspect it, I know it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 15, 2022, 08:00:57 pm
Don't really understand what all the fuss is about.  Suspect that a lot of people are leveraging the climate to take advantage of sick leave.
Stats suggest 15% of people won't get COVID with or without vaccination, they still do not know why, maybe you're in the 15%!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on August 15, 2022, 08:25:58 pm
This has been going on for the better part of 2.5 years now, but some people are still missing the basics.

No, it doesn't prevent Covid. Nobody said it did. You may be prevented from getting it, but at a minimum...
It limits the intensity,
which limits the amount of people who end up in ICU
which limits the amount of people we need to find a bed for
which limits the amount of people who miss out on a bed
which limits the amount of people who die.

Which in turn eases the strain on the health care system so people who have 'regular issues' like heart attacks can actually get an ambulance when they need one, which again, limits the people who die.

But sure....its all BS.

Firstly yes they did say it reduces your odds of getting it! The narrative was then conveniently changed when the numbers kept increasing despite the bulk of the population being vaccinated. But they still went to the extent of preventing the unvaccinated from majority of workplaces (excluding the law fraternity of course)

My point is their mandates were mainly sold on a mantra that is now proven to not be the case and these mandates have crippled a lot of industries none more important then our undermanned health system. And if you say they did it because of the effect the unvaccinated may have on the health system why not use the same mandates for

Heavy drinkers
Smokers
Obese
Drug users (nah we have injecting rooms instead for them)

All of the above are self inflicted and why should they take a bed up (same as a unvaccinated patient does remember) over me who looks after himself and the above list is likely to have a longer term effect on health care system then a Covid patient.

What am i missing.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 16, 2022, 08:05:19 am
Firstly yes they did say it reduces your odds of getting it! The narrative was then conveniently changed when the numbers kept increasing despite the bulk of the population being vaccinated. But they still went to the extent of preventing the unvaccinated from majority of workplaces (excluding the law fraternity of course)
There was never a change in narrative., that spread and the growing case numbers is exactly what should happen as a virus spreads through the population, the science of epidemiology is the study of such events and I'm sure the epidemiologists know more about it than Facebook, News Ltd or just about everyone else.

Unvaccinated are many many times more likely to end up in ICU, so it's reasonable that they should be restricted, otherwise through the results of their deliberate choice to avoid vaccination they are putting the kibosh on a resources shared with and paid for by everybody, and deliberately spreading the disease to those people who have no choice and cannot be vaccinated, anti-vaxers are k@#ts!.

The problem isn't the health system, politics or the law, the problem is the hypocritical behaviour of the anti-vaccination lobby, refusing the jab then crying like babies for a life saving cure! Like we didn't see that coming, becuase that is what the anti-vaxxers do better than anything else, bitch like cut snakes!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 16, 2022, 08:17:27 am
My point is their mandates were mainly sold on a mantra that is now proven to not be the case
Your point is wrong.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 16, 2022, 08:19:10 am
Anti-vaxxing k@#nts!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WHSVOVLmNY
If you don't mind, I'd rather have the choice not to be your friend!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on August 16, 2022, 10:23:16 am
It seems there are a lot of different experiences with this thing.
I'm one month post positive.
The first day was the worst (chills and fever) after that I got access to some anti-virals and the symptoms cleared up pretty quickly.
Then about a week later the cough, which hadn't been too bad, started to get a bit worse, and is still hanging around.
I re-tested on around days 10 and 14 (two weeks).
There was still a faint second line on both occasiions.
I tested again this morning, after developing a few sniffles over-night, and I'm clear (must be a day-care head cold from the grandkids).

There will no doubt be a lot of follow up research on the effects of the virus.
One interesting one may be the 'covid fog'.

I like to do a lot of online quizzes and puzzles.
Trivia stuff-History Geography, Science, Entertainment etc.

I was doing a quiz the other night that required me to match the names of movie stars to their photographs.
It's the kind of task I usually have little trouble with and usually get them all or miss on  one or two.

In this quiz there were 20 photos of fairly well known stars.
I ended up missing 8.
They were 8 I knew very well and included folks like Val Kilmer, Morgan Freeman and Anthony Hopkins.
I could see them in their films, but the names just wouldn't come to me before I ran out of time.
It was really frustrating and I suspect it's similar to the way folks with Alzheimers must sometimes feel.
Knowing but not able to verbalise it.

I had a similar problem later with a flag quiz.

Now here's the strange part.
It seemed to only happen with 'image' matching....picture/ name, flag/ country
On a general knowledge quiz around the same time I had no trouble with written questions.

The other strange thing is that if I were to repeat that 'film star' quiz today I'd have no trouble...I can even remember most of them now without looking at the quiz.
It's like the covid deleted an information block or processing unit from the brain and then the quiz task rebooted it and corrected the error.
Weird.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on August 16, 2022, 10:30:39 am
We had the same issue ... Seems to be unable 'to join the jots', start or concentrate tasks.  I recognise that face and the movies he was in but can't quite recall the name. Lot better 10 weeks later.

Just a bit off for a while,  not as sharp as usual.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on August 16, 2022, 10:38:38 am
Your point is wrong.

No it's not. They sold the idea the vaccine stops you getting it which was a lie.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on August 16, 2022, 10:46:27 am
No it's not. They sold the idea the vaccine stops you getting it which was a lie.

Thank you.

I specifically recall hearing countless times in dans BS daily presses how unvaccinated are a risk to the vaccinated and that’s the primary reason the unvaccinated will be alienated and locked out of majority of places. Otherwise why do that??

Same way as so many said how dangerous it is to have jones anywhere near the playing group.

Or did they forget that as well.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on August 16, 2022, 11:07:31 am
Not exactly sure who "they" are, that said vaccines stop you from getting covid. I never heard anyone reputable, be they medical professionals or politicians, who said those words. I remember hearing that getting the vaccine is your best chance of prevention, not that in and of itself, it is prevention.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on August 16, 2022, 11:23:17 am
Anti-vaxxing k@#nts!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WHSVOVLmNY
If you don't mind, I'd rather have the choice not to be your friend!

This was written in the 50s, but not released until the 80s.  I loved Tom Lehrer when growing up, along with Flanders and Swann.  A few of my faves are Be Prepared, Vatican Rag, Poisoning Pigeons in the park, The elements. 

Back to Covid - it is really weird how it affects everyone really differently, although the elements seem to be the same.  Also really weird how it is vastly different within a family.  Hope all get better quickly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 16, 2022, 11:31:44 am
It seems there are a lot of different experiences with this thing.
I'm one month post positive.
The first day was the worst (chills and fever) after that I got access to some anti-virals and the symptoms cleared up pretty quickly.
Then about a week later the cough, which hadn't been too bad, started to get a bit worse, and is still hanging around.
I re-tested on around days 10 and 14 (two weeks).
There was still a faint second line on both occasiions.
I tested again this morning, after developing a few sniffles over-night, and I'm clear (must be a day-care head cold from the grandkids).

There will no doubt be a lot of follow up research on the effects of the virus.
One interesting one may be the 'covid fog'.

I like to do a lot of online quizzes and puzzles.
Trivia stuff-History Geography, Science, Entertainment etc.

I was doing a quiz the other night that required me to match the names of movie stars to their photographs.
It's the kind of task I usually have little trouble with and usually get them all or miss on  one or two.

In this quiz there were 20 photos of fairly well known stars.
I ended up missing 8.
They were 8 I knew very well and included folks like Val Kilmer, Morgan Freeman and Anthony Hopkins.
I could see them in their films, but the names just wouldn't come to me before I ran out of time.
It was really frustrating and I suspect it's similar to the way folks with Alzheimers must sometimes feel.
Knowing but not able to verbalise it.

I had a similar problem later with a flag quiz.

Now here's the strange part.
It seemed to only happen with 'image' matching....picture/ name, flag/ country
On a general knowledge quiz around the same time I had no trouble with written questions.

The other strange thing is that if I were to repeat that 'film star' quiz today I'd have no trouble...I can even remember most of them now without looking at the quiz.
It's like the covid deleted an information block or processing unit from the brain and then the quiz task rebooted it and corrected the error.
Weird.


To quote a very much used argument to debunk a lit of things, correlation doesn't equal causation.

I suspect the majority of covid positive people are acutely aware of it, and as a consequence attribute things to it.

I have a persistent cough at the moment despite not having tested positive, or having even been sick.

Is it covid?  Or is this normal and im like that?

Not sure.  I have my days when my memory works well.  I have my days when I can't remember simple terminology.

The factors could be illness, or it could be stress from seeing your footy team cough up a game from a winnable position or it could be covid fog.

You know the fog that has seen everyone reaching for a treat or a coffee or a tea at 3.30 every day since i can remember?

Im not yet 40 but close enough.  Have noticed the last few years this has been getting worse.  Is it lock down?  Is it the stress of a pandemic?  Did I get cpvid that caused it?  Or am I just getting on a bit and feeling my mortality?

Or is it simply what happens to people.  People are variable in their performance.  Brain works well some days and not so well the other.  I imagine that a proper neuro doctor would be able to explain why covid fog can't be a symptom of covid because they should effectively follow a change in physiology to match the degradation of memory but you would only be able to benchmark against a before and after brain scan which limits the pool to people already having neurological issues and ergo can't really draw any meaningful data. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on August 16, 2022, 12:06:06 pm
To quote a very much used argument to debunk a lit of things, correlation doesn't equal causation.

I suspect the majority of covid positive people are acutely aware of it, and as a consequence attribute things to it.

I have a persistent cough at the moment despite not having tested positive, or having even been sick.

Is it covid?  Or is this normal and im like that?

Not sure.  I have my days when my memory works well.  I have my days when I can't remember simple terminology.

The factors could be illness, or it could be stress from seeing your footy team cough up a game from a winnable position or it could be covid fog.

You know the fog that has seen everyone reaching for a treat or a coffee or a tea at 3.30 every day since i can remember?

Im not yet 40 but close enough.  Have noticed the last few years this has been getting worse.  Is it lock down?  Is it the stress of a pandemic?  Did I get cpvid that caused it?  Or am I just getting on a bit and feeling my mortality?

Or is it simply what happens to people.  People are variable in their performance.  Brain works well some days and not so well the other.  I imagine that a proper neuro doctor would be able to explain why covid fog can't be a symptom of covid because they should effectively follow a change in physiology to match the degradation of memory but you would only be able to benchmark against a before and after brain scan which limits the pool to people already having neurological issues and ergo can't really draw any meaningful data.

It may be as you say Thry...
But then again it may be that there is an issue with the virus affecting the memory and thought processes of some of us.

The effects of the virus are still largely not understood.
But the 'covid fog' is certainly something that is being looked at.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/what-is-covid-19-brain-fog-and-how-can-you-clear-it-2021030822076

Covid symptoms vary greatly from individual to individual
The length of symptoms also varies.

I can only go on my own experience, and a task I'd normally find realtively easy, and not one I've had trouble with before, became frustratingly complicated.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on August 16, 2022, 01:11:00 pm
Probably, you don’t want to read this right now Lods: COVID and the brain: researchers zero in on how damage occurs, Nature. (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01693-6)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 16, 2022, 01:28:27 pm
It may be as you say Thry...
But then again it may be that there is an issue with the virus affecting the memory and thought processes of some of us.

The effects of the virus are still largely not understood.
But the 'covid fog' is certainly something that is being looked at.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/what-is-covid-19-brain-fog-and-how-can-you-clear-it-2021030822076

Covid symptoms vary greatly from individual to individual
The length of symptoms also varies.

I can only go on my own experience, and a task I'd normally find realtively easy, and not one I've had trouble with before, became frustratingly complicated.



So, not wanting to be dismissive of Covid Fog, because I have only my anecdotal experiences to draw off, and even that is removed from a positive case by at least a household (most of my extended family have caught it, myself and the wife have been to the best of our knowledge covid free and very healthy over the last few years) these are the exact same things that people state to do to combat mental health issues, as well as being healthier in general:

Quote
What might help clear the brain fog?
To help clear the brain fog, I recommend pursuing all of the activities that we know help everyone’s thinking and memory.

Perform aerobic exercise. You may need to start slow, perhaps just two to three minutes a few times a day. While there is no established “dose” of exercise to improve brain health, it’s generally recommended you work toward 30 minutes a day, five days a week.
Eat Mediterranean-style meals. A healthy diet including olive oil, fruits and vegetables, nuts and beans, and whole grains has been proven to improve thinking, memory. and brain health.
Avoid alcohol and drugs. Give your brain the best chance to heal by avoiding substances which can adversely affect it.
Sleep well. Sleep is a time when the brain and body can clear out toxins and work toward healing. Make sure you give your body the sleep it needs.
Participate in social activities. We are social animals. Not only do social activities benefit our moods, but they help our thinking and memory as well.
Pursue other beneficial activities, including engaging in novel, cognitively stimulating activities; listening to music; practicing mindfulness; and keeping a positive mental attitude.

All of it very valid.  I hope only to try and challenge you to think, is this really covid fog?  Or is it simply a result of a body having fought an infection?

Id suggest the latter.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 16, 2022, 01:30:12 pm
Probably, you don’t want to read this right now Lods: COVID and the brain: researchers zero in on how damage occurs, Nature. (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01693-6)
This is the part the naysayers do not get, they think it's a cold or sniffles for most people and they'll be OK, but that is just a guess based on sweeping conclusions that after the infection clears you will be back to normal.  But something like polio says hello, a rash for some, a life sentence for others!

FWIW, the it'll be OK if it doesn't kill you is the very same wrong conclusion people make about things going back to the way they were after lockdown. They are oblivious to the way the world has changed, yet it's all happened before back with the Spanish Flu. The world was a different place before and after the Spanish Flu, it's just that the social media naysayers are either ignorant of that fact or just ignore it!

Some percentage of people struggle to accept change, regardless if that change is for the better or worse, they will just always oppose change.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 16, 2022, 01:33:32 pm
Also, keep in mind that psychosomatic is a thing. 

If you believe it, it might be true and you might have brain fog.

Quote
from Mav's article:
Early in the pandemic, researchers speculated that the virus might cause damage by somehow entering the brain and infecting neurons, the cells responsible for transmitting and processing information. But studies have since indicated3 that the virus has difficulty getting past the brain’s defence system — the blood–brain barrier — and that it doesn’t necessarily attack neurons in any significant way.

The experts don't agree, and the data will show a variety of outcomes that will drive someone's agenda one way, but I suspect that my covid immunity might simply stem from the fact that I don't really think its that big a deal and ergo, it isnt.


Also, when I read information that is full of qualifying statements, its an assumption with minimal evidence that can somewhat be proven in some cases but not others, and usually speaks from a theory that is yet to go mainstream.  No point even worrying about it until it becomes a known known. 

So long as you still despise Collingwood and barrack for the Blues, Id suggest your brain is fine. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 16, 2022, 01:38:43 pm
COVID like many other diseases always was and always will be a spectrum of illness, ranging from inconsequential to deadly.

btw., That aspect of COVID is what makes it so very hard to prevent or treat.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on August 16, 2022, 02:11:55 pm
So long as you still despise Collingwood and barrack for the Blues, Id suggest your brain is fine.

What's a Collingwood ???

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 16, 2022, 02:24:48 pm
What's a Collingwood ???
Collingwood is a famous English cricketer, world famous in fact!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on August 16, 2022, 02:27:00 pm
I guess the thing I was trying to highlight was the nature (in my case ) of the memory malfucntion.
It was a specific type of task image/name matching rather than a written question.
I wonder about the issues with others.

Thry
I hope you can continue to avoid it but there may come a time when you will be infected.
If you'd asked me three days after the initial infection I would have said it's 'no biggy'.
But then other symptoms kick in.
Maybe it's all in the mind.
You'd have to experience it to understand (Not that I'd wish that on you)
Walking up the hill while waiting for the car to be serviced yesterday I had to stop a couple of times.
I feel I'm on the mend, that's but I'm nowhere near like my normal self of just a month ago.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 16, 2022, 02:58:22 pm
Thank you.

I specifically recall hearing countless times in dans BS daily presses how unvaccinated are a risk to the vaccinated and that’s the primary reason the unvaccinated will be alienated and locked out of majority of places. Otherwise why do that??

Same way as so many said how dangerous it is to have jones anywhere near the playing group.

Or did they forget that as well.
You are less likely to get it if you are vaccinated, you are certainly less likely to get super sick from it if you are vaccinated.
That doesn't mean it stops you getting it. It means it stops you getting it to the same extent as those not vaccinated.

There is a difference.

As we've discovered time and time again in this saga, people hear what they wanna hear and make judgement based on misunderstanding, and misinformation in most anti-vaxxers.

For the average joe out there, they don't understand how covid works, vaccines work, flattening the curve works etc etc.
This is why we have experts, so we don't need to know.

However, one person tries to paraphrase someone and 'disprove' it and that supposedly invalidates the whole argument....despite the paraphrasing missing the point.

One example of this is masks.
Wear masks and help stop the spread

Now people see that and dive into it, the virus is so small it can get through the masks....thus...masks do nothing. ITS BS!

However, that is only half the idea IMO.
1. Wear a mask can limit the distance the virus can spread through it, compared to no mask.
eg Spraying water through a flyscreen won't stop the water getting through, but it limit how far it gets.

2. The part people are oblivious too, the psychology of wearing a mask. It is a constant reminder that you need to be careful.
You see someone with a mask on and it reminds you (i need to stay 1.5m away, not shake hands etc) it reminds you that you need to sanitise your hands when you touch something etc.
So masks are working as a reminder, even if they are not working as a face force-field.

But, prove some virus can get through a mask and the whole concept of masks is BS! Only to the ignorant.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on August 16, 2022, 03:03:23 pm
You are less likely to get it if you are vaccinated, you are certainly less likely to get super sick from it if you are vaccinated.
That doesn't mean it stops you getting it. It means it stops you getting it to the same extent as those not vaccinated.

There is a difference.

As we've discovered time and time again in this saga, people hear what they wanna hear and make judgement based on misunderstanding, and misinformation in most anti-vaxxers.

For the average joe out there, they don't understand how covid works, vaccines work, flattening the curve works etc etc.
This is why we have experts, so we don't need to know.

However, one person tries to paraphrase someone and 'disprove' it and that supposedly invalidates the whole argument....despite the paraphrasing missing the point.

One example of this is masks.
Wear masks and help stop the spread

Now people see that and dive into it, the virus is so small it can get through the masks....thus...masks do nothing. ITS BS!

However, that is only half the idea IMO.
1. Wear a mask can limit the distance the virus can spread through it, compared to no mask.
eg Spraying water through a flyscreen won't stop the water getting through, but it limit how far it gets.

2. The part people are oblivious too, the psychology of wearing a mask. It is a constant reminder that you need to be careful.
You see someone with a mask on and it reminds you (i need to stay 1.5m away, not shake hands etc) it reminds you that you need to sanitise your hands when you touch something etc.
So masks are working as a reminder, even if they are not working as a face force-field.

But, prove some virus can get through a mask and the whole concept of masks is BS! Only to the ignorant.

More to the point “Only to the really, really intelligent” because they believe they are smarter than experts in the field.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 16, 2022, 03:05:55 pm
More to the point “Only to the really, really intelligent” because they believe they are smarter than experts in the field.
Thats one way of looking at it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on August 16, 2022, 04:01:44 pm
Actually the public use masks horrendously, because the disposables most of us wear are only fully effective when they are dry and fresh, that is why in a medical setting they are often changed multiple times per day.

It's all about attracting or repelling fluids, for the techno speak it's hydrophobic(water repel) or hydrophilic(water attract). The little viruses / particles need conditions to be just right to float or move about, too dry and they get stuck, too wet and they get bogged, they want things just right like Little Red Riding Hood.

Now too wet isn't an option for masks, because the level of too wet needed to stop the virus will also stop you breathing. So too dry is the only viable option, but with every exhalation we make the mask a little more wet, and at some point the mask goes from being too dry to just right. At that time the virus slides over the fibres like butter on hot teflon, wraps itself in a little moisture packet, and gets fired at the next available passer-by with every sledge or expletive spoken, like a little viral bullet.

However, lucky for us one other aspect of a mask still keeps working, even when conditions have become just right for a virus a mask stops us firing out bigger particles, bigger heavier particles can travel further than small particles, bigger particles evaporate slower than small particles. Using a mask and restricting the particle size diminishes the chances of infecting somebody else, and to a lesser effect reduces your own chance of being infected.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on August 16, 2022, 04:40:09 pm
I guess the thing I was trying to highlight was the nature (in my case ) of the memory malfucntion.
It was a specific type of task image/name matching rather than a written question.
I wonder about the issues with others.

Thry
I hope you can continue to avoid it but there may come a time when you will be infected.
If you'd asked me three days after the initial infection I would have said it's 'no biggy'.
But then other symptoms kick in.
Maybe it's all in the mind.
You'd have to experience it to understand (Not that I'd wish that on you)
Walking up the hill while waiting for the car to be serviced yesterday I had to stop a couple of times.
I feel I'm on the mend, that's but I'm nowhere near like my normal self of just a month ago.



Cheers LODS.

I made my peace of when not if when i committed to taking PT to work.

I hope you feel better soon.  Don't take my posts as being dismissive of anything.  I don't know any different, but I take a lot of heart from cancer survivors, who have made it all about mentality, confidence and positivity.

It doesn't change their plight though, and that they are in the life and death battle of their lives, and will likely eventually succumb, but if you can stick your finger up at it along the way it might actually help you feel better and as a consequence beat it.  We don't need to look too far to find that example.  As far as Im concerned he is still one of our captains. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 16, 2022, 04:49:35 pm
Actually the public use masks horrendously, because the disposables most of us wear are only fully effective when they are dry and fresh, that is why in a medical setting they are often changed multiple times per day.

It's all about attracting or repelling fluids, for the techno speak it's hydrophobic(water repel) or hydrophilic(water attract). The little viruses / particles need conditions to be just right to float or move about, too dry and they get stuck, too wet and they get bogged, they want things just right like Little Red Riding Hood.

Now too wet isn't an option for masks, because the level of too wet needed to stop the virus will also stop you breathing. So too dry is the only viable option, but with every exhalation we make the mask a little more wet, and at some point the mask goes from being too dry to just right. At that time the virus slides over the fibres like butter on hot teflon, wrap itself in a little moisture packet, and get fired at the next available passer-by with every sledge or expletive spoken, like a little viral bullet.

However, lucky for us one other aspect of a mask still keeps working, even when conditions have become just right for a virus a mask stops us firing out bigger particles, bigger heavier particles can travel further than small particles, bigger particles evaporate slower than small particles. Using a mask and restricting the particle size diminishes the chances of infecting somebody else, and to a lesser effect reduces your own chance of being infected.
Correct, Hospital staff change masks on a regular basis because they get soggy and are a flytrap for bacteria and anything else floating around and its an issue in the community because most people dont change their masks but just leave them hanging on the mirror or dashboard to dry out and then re-wear them usually until the elastic straps break.
As most who have visited private hospitals, rehabs and nursing home settings will find they make you put on a fresh mask at the door when you enter, well at least the well run ones do......
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on August 16, 2022, 05:13:22 pm
Actually the public use masks horrendously, because the disposables most of us wear are only fully effective when they are dry and fresh, that is why in a medical setting they are often changed multiple times per day.
I don't disagree with this, or anything you wrote. Seeing some karens cut holes in their masks so they can sip straws or breath better is evidence of even worse behaviour. But rather bog people down with science, which these types of people can not, or do not understand, i offered an alternative 'working' that they provide.

The whole thing is just an example of fixating on one point is completely missing others. Which is what the majority of anti-vaxers and anti-establishment (eg anti-dan) continue to do.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on August 16, 2022, 06:52:04 pm
I guess the thing I was trying to highlight was the nature (in my case ) of the memory malfucntion.
It was a specific type of task image/name matching rather than a written question.
I wonder about the issues with others.

Thry
I hope you can continue to avoid it but there may come a time when you will be infected.
If you'd asked me three days after the initial infection I would have said it's 'no biggy'.
But then other symptoms kick in.
Maybe it's all in the mind.
You'd have to experience it to understand (Not that I'd wish that on you)
Walking up the hill while waiting for the car to be serviced yesterday I had to stop a couple of times.
I feel I'm on the mend, that's but I'm nowhere near like my normal self of just a month ago.



Sure do relate to this, Principal LODS.

Recently I wrote here, like any self-respecting smarty pants, that I'd had Covid a while back and the symptoms were pretty mild, which was true. Then I got the seasonal flu, which floored me for about 5 days. Red hot razor blades in the throat when coughing. Then a week later (last week)... Covid struck again, obviously due to lowered immunity due to flu, this time nothing mild about it. Not bad enough to go to the doc or hospital, but debilitating and still, mmm... how do I put this without being gross... clearing unpleasantly coloured debris from the shnozzle. Like a bad cold now.... stuffy head, mild temperature etc. So my thoughts are with you esteemed friend, I haven't ventured for a long walk as yet! I hope your recovery speeds up and is complete.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on August 16, 2022, 07:13:39 pm
Sure do relate to this, Principal LODS.

Recently I wrote here, like any self-respecting smarty pants, that I'd had Covid a while back and the symptoms were pretty mild, which was true. Then I got the seasonal flu, which floored me for about 5 days. Red hot razor blades in the throat when coughing. Then a week later (last week)... Covid struck again, obviously due to lowered immunity due to flu, this time nothing mild about it. Not bad enough to go to the doc or hospital, but debilitating and still, mmm... how do I put this without being gross... clearing unpleasantly coloured debris from the shnozzle. Like a bad cold now.... stuffy head, mild temperature etc. So my thoughts are with you esteemed friend, I haven't ventured for a long walk as yet! I hope your recovery speeds up and is complete.

Same to you Baggers.
I guess the moral to the story is with Covid...it's not over until it's over.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on September 04, 2022, 07:53:16 am
https://theconversation.com/cutting-covid-isolation-and-mask-mandates-will-mean-more-damage-to-business-and-health-in-the-long-run-189862
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 04, 2022, 11:46:35 am
https://theconversation.com/cutting-covid-isolation-and-mask-mandates-will-mean-more-damage-to-business-and-health-in-the-long-run-189862
Unfortunately, there is now a very high likelihood we are all going to pay a high price for politically servicing the complaints of minority interests.

I can tell you unequivocally, the effects of opening up and the increasing COVID case count, are far wider and far more damaging to industry and commercial enterprise than the original restrictions, Actually, our restrictions were almost Clayton's restrictions compared to some international regions, and COVID is not even peaked in some foreign locations yet, the chance of it returning here is very very high.

All this "freedom" so some very very small minority can head back to the pub for a smoke and piss up, cast a marginal vote, and have their high risk ways expose them to COVID!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 04, 2022, 07:27:59 pm
I can categorically state that the only time the wider communitu of people are worried about covid is when its time to go to work.

Beyond that, if there is a social event, a footy game, a dinner, a theatre production, a shopping trip, a holiday, a plane ride, they are happy to get out and about, but they're not pleased to attend the workplace.

I dont blame anyone for this, but the majority of people are well and truly done with the pandemic and most people aren't worried about catching it aside from the inconvenience to their social life.

One of the guys I work with has been socialising happily, but is not keen to come to the rather empty office more than once a fortnight.

Im not judging people for this.  Its perfectly natural but I think you can't really be worried about covid if you're going out and about but not really concerned about it, and I think that despite what the statistics state about covid, no one is really worried about it now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on September 20, 2022, 07:51:42 am
It's news like the following that drives me to continue warning against complacency, history is littered with similar effects, just because you can't see something happening immediately like Polio or Rubella, doesn't mean you shouldn't take it seriously.

Quote
Now a report published in Nature Medicine and led by researchers from Washington University suggests whether we’ve had COVID – even a mild case – could be added to that checklist. Expert authors Clare Arnott, Jamie Cham and Bruce Neal from the George Institute for Global Health and University of Sydney note the large-scale study highlights our limited understanding of the full consequences of COVID infection.

The big concern is that medium- to long-term harm to the body’s blood vessel network (the vascular system) appear more common than previously thought. Between 30 days and a year after recovery from COVID, survivors studied were 52% more likely to have a stroke, 63% more likely to have a heart attack, and 72% more likely to develop heart failure. When scaled to 600 million COVID infections worldwide, the implications are enormous.
Potentially, there may be many naysayers who can have "It was only mild!" etched on their headstones, and many more of their "involuntary associates" who can write "Thanks Mate"!
 
 
 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on September 30, 2022, 05:17:10 pm
Just been to SIngapore.  Interesting that:
 - masks are compulsary on public transport - 100% of people wear them. (you wouldn't know that in Melbourne)
 - masks optional in Taxis - some drivers asked us to wear them, others didn't care
 - masks were optional on the flight home - it seemed that most non-caucasians wore them, not many caucasians did
 
Mainly cultural/regime differences, but interesting.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on September 30, 2022, 05:23:42 pm
Just been to SIngapore.  Interesting that:
 - masks are compulsary on public transport - 100% of people wear them. (you wouldn't know that in Melbourne)
 - masks optional in Taxis - some drivers asked us to wear them, others didn't care
 - masks were optional on the flight home - it seemed that most non-caucasians wore them, not many caucasians did
 
Mainly cultural/regime differences, but interesting.


Interesting. Thanks for that.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2022, 06:23:16 pm
Just been to SIngapore.  Interesting that:
 - masks are compulsary on public transport - 100% of people wear them. (you wouldn't know that in Melbourne)
 - masks optional in Taxis - some drivers asked us to wear them, others didn't care
 - masks were optional on the flight home - it seemed that most non-caucasians wore them, not many caucasians did
 
Mainly cultural/regime differences, but interesting.

Didnt they have SARS first and adopted the mask regime then and were very quick to implement them for CoVid too....
I still see plenty of folk from Asian backgrounds wearing masks today and they still seem very concerned about CoVid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on September 30, 2022, 06:42:13 pm
I think many Asians wear masks to mitigate the air pollution or at least feel better about it.
They also dont seem to mind a minor inconvenience to help others
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: spf on September 30, 2022, 08:28:42 pm
Just returned from Manila, masks are still mandatory everywhere (even outside), not long ago you also had to wear a face shield with the mask as well. Apparently it was heavily enforced.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 30, 2022, 09:32:30 pm
Iso being kiboshed shortly
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 30, 2022, 09:32:59 pm
Iso being kiboshed shortly
2 weeks from now i believe.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on September 30, 2022, 09:33:30 pm
Iso being kiboshed shortly

Covid is over. Only 9000 cases and 60 deaths this week.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on September 30, 2022, 09:35:24 pm
I Still haven't tested positive.

I dont think I ever will either.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on September 30, 2022, 09:35:53 pm
I Still haven't tested positive.

I dont think I ever will either.
Ditto
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on September 30, 2022, 10:14:26 pm
Dunno how you guys figure that…?
I’m a Covid virgin too, but as they say in the classics, past performance is no guarantee of future returns
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 01, 2022, 12:43:20 am
Expect another COVID spike in November.

It seems that our governments have decided that it’s not worth mandating masks or isolation if non-compliance is the norm 🙁
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on October 01, 2022, 07:00:35 am
I think the citizenry and governments have consigned covid to the dustbin of history, rightly or wrongly. The medicos and science types are saying that ending the mandatory quarantine period is unwise and puts the public at risk.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on October 01, 2022, 10:36:06 am
https://theconversation.com/if-you-think-scrapping-covid-isolation-periods-will-get-us-back-to-work-and-past-the-pandemic-think-again-191670
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 01, 2022, 11:21:58 am
You can't blame the population, they want to go back to the old ways, they think declaring it's over is the first major step. It's a form of naivety, although we know some might not be altruistic the bulk just innocently want life to go back to the way things were.

Of course, like the various pandemics before it that won't be the case, never was going to be and likely never will be!

My recommendation to you is that if you are older, if you have some pre-existing condition that makes you vulnerable, wear a mask, even if you are healthy wear a mask in crowded public spaces. The science is clear, avoiding COVID is critical for your long term health. I can't believe some are willing to accept the risk when the outcome of being unlucky is so high, that inability to understand the risk seems to be a human fallibility.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 01, 2022, 11:29:25 am
Expect another COVID spike in November.

It seems that our governments have decided that it’s not worth mandating masks or isolation if non-compliance is the norm 🙁
Yes perhaps, the bigger issue might well be March / April 2023 when the bulk of the population haven't bothered to have a booster and autumn arrives with protection waning.

There might be some panic, because the resources required to massively vaccinate the population in a swift manner are being disassembled right now, if the panic comes the resources just won't be there!

So my advice, get a timely booster, perhaps Jan / Feb next year, and respect the pandemic threat.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 01, 2022, 01:14:18 pm
You can't blame the population, they want to go back to the old ways, they think declaring it's over is the first major step. It's a form of naivety, although we know some might not be altruistic the bulk just innocently want life to go back to the way things were.

Of course, like the various pandemics before it that won't be the case, never was going to be and likely never will be!

My recommendation to you is that if you are older, if you have some pre-existing condition that makes you vulnerable, wear a mask, even if you are healthy wear a mask in crowded public spaces. The science is clear, avoiding COVID is critical for your long term health. I can't believe some are willing to accept the risk when the outcome of being unlucky is so high, that inability to understand the risk seems to be a human fallibility.

Its not declared over, it is over. 

Globally its all finished.  People are more focussed on hyper inflation and making up for lost time. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 01, 2022, 05:09:22 pm
Think the economy will take precedence over health rightly or wrongly...Inflation has spiraled everywhere and the Ukraine war has sent energy prices skyward and created shortages.
I'm with LP and think you have to be proactive yourself and wear a mask, social distance etc if you feel vulnerable, the Government dont care anymore and wont be funding what they were previously in terms of assistance or providing the resources for CoVid clinics and you are on own even with testing.
Most governments now are in damage control with regards their economy and fearing recession, cash rates wont be coming back down to 0.1% ever again and the RBA started way too late in terms of raising rates to fight inflation and the Aus economy is going to suffer as will households meaning CoVid will be taking a back seat in terms of headlines.
I expect like LP and DJ that CoVid will spike again and next winter it will probably be a new strain and we will find hospitals stretched again and lots of people sick but it wont be making the headlines like it was and it will be silent epidemic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on October 01, 2022, 06:21:34 pm
Think the economy will take precedence over health rightly or wrongly...Inflation has spiraled everywhere and the Ukraine war has sent energy prices skyward and created shortages.
I'm with LP and think you have to be proactive yourself and wear a mask, social distance etc if you feel vulnerable, the Government dont care anymore and wont be funding what they were previously in terms of assistance or providing the resources for CoVid clinics and you are on own even with testing.
Most governments now are in damage control with regards their economy and fearing recession, cash rates wont be coming back down to 0.1% ever again and the RBA started way too late in terms of raising rates to fight inflation and the Aus economy is going to suffer as will households meaning CoVid will be taking a back seat in terms of headlines.
I expect like LP and DJ that CoVid will spike again and next winter it will probably be a new strain and we will find hospitals stretched again and lots of people sick but it wont be making the headlines like it was and it will be silent epidemic.

i don't think its that the governments don't care exactly. More that we cannot continue going down the path indefinitely as there isn't an infinite amount of money to assist us with.

Economy will continue to go down the drain causing people to lose houses...and jobs etc etc

Ultimately, its a more manageable situation. As has been said....people know how to look after themselves now, its on them to do it for their own good.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 01, 2022, 06:31:30 pm
Its not declared over, it is over. 

Globally its all finished.  People are more focussed on hyper inflation and making up for lost time.
The ending of restrictions is not the end of the pandemic, the virus doesn't give a stuff what any human thinks on either side of the debate.

The ending of restrictions is the ending of official support, basically resources and finances are being pulled, this time next year the need for vaccines and expensive treatments probably won't have diminished, but they won't be subsidised either.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on October 01, 2022, 06:45:45 pm
The ending of restrictions is not the end of the pandemic, the virus doesn't give a stuff what any human thinks on either side of the debate.

The ending of restrictions is the ending of official support, basically resources and finances are being pulled, this time next year the need for vaccines and expensive treatments probably won't have diminished, but they won't be subsidised either.

As Mav said a few months back, you might be finished with covid, but covid might not be finished with you.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 01, 2022, 06:48:49 pm
i don't think its that the governments don't care exactly. More that we cannot continue going down the path indefinitely as there isn't an infinite amount of money to assist us with.

Economy will continue to go down the drain causing people to lose houses...and jobs etc etc

Ultimately, its a more manageable situation. As has been said....people know how to look after themselves now, its on them to do it for their own good.
Think its about bang for buck with Governments and votes being the bang part.......lot more people worried about their bottom line than their Rat Tests and we have already seen gentlemen Jim Chalmers scrounging around for dollars to pay the bills and has even gone down the franking credits route again allbeit a different path trying to score some money.
CoVid resources cost and its not sexy anymore to be throwing money at out of work taxpayers like ScoMo did trying to buy votes and I think Albo in particular will be looking at ways to pay down debt and keep a lid on house prices and mortgages.
Dan and the invisible opposition led by Matthew Guy in Victoria might throw some money at health as part of their pledges to build hospitals and provide more beds in needy Melbourne areas but I cant see Albo providing too much coin given he needs to prove he can manage the economy first and unless CoVid deaths take off in a big way overseas and here I cant see the Government/s getting that interested in revisiting the bad old days of CoVid and being proactive anymore.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 01, 2022, 06:49:48 pm
As Mav said a few months back, you might be finished with covid, but covid might not be finished with you.
I missed that one, kudos to @Mav because it is so true!
 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on October 01, 2022, 09:38:49 pm
I'm wondering...
I suspect there are a lot of folks at the moment who don't register their positive RAT tests with the Health folk.

I suspect this move will result in even less people complying...it's the effect of a message that basically says....treat it like other illnesses, stay home if you're sick and go to the hospital if you're really unwell.

That probably means we won't know when a wave is hitting and the extent of it until the big numbers hit the hospitals.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on October 01, 2022, 10:37:54 pm
Nothing surer Lods
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 02, 2022, 01:00:02 am
The ending of restrictions is not the end of the pandemic, the virus doesn't give a stuff what any human thinks on either side of the debate.

The ending of restrictions is the ending of official support, basically resources and finances are being pulled, this time next year the need for vaccines and expensive treatments probably won't have diminished, but they won't be subsidised either.
im still waiting for covid to start with me.

I actually miss lock down because life resembled a simple way of life and there was more empathy in the world.

Covid is a toothless tiger.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on October 02, 2022, 07:57:05 am
Covid is a toothless tiger.

Might be better to wait until you actually meet the tiger to see whether it's toothless.
I met him....and the bastard bit me. ;)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 02, 2022, 08:15:16 am
COVID still averages about 10% lethality globally, that is a bit too high for me to show hubris about having it defeated, it would be tempting fate.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 07, 2022, 11:23:09 pm
So, Chairman Dan has decided that the pandemic is over and the emergency powers will come to an end next Wednesday.

I'm not sure that Dan's decision is right - we still have a rampant neurological virus with unknown longer term issues - but he has stepped into line with the other States and Territories.

I guess that means that the conspiracy theorists who so vehemently opposed Victoria's legislative response to the pandemic will have to admit that they were wrong.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 08, 2022, 07:14:10 am
Right before the election as predicted.

My mum has covid now and she is very sick. Has had a fever for 5 days, have to check in on her this morning.
Been a while since her 3rd shot so her protection has probably dropped a bit, if she was unvaccinated I have no doubt she would be in hospital.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 08, 2022, 07:31:27 am
Right before the election as predicted.

My mum has covid now and she is very sick. Has had a fever for 5 days, have to check in on her this morning.
Been a while since her 3rd shot so her protection has probably dropped a bit, if she was unvaccinated I have no doubt she would be in hospital.
I hope she returns to full health quickly Mad One.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 08, 2022, 08:31:29 am
Right before the election as predicted.

My mum has covid now and she is very sick. Has had a fever for 5 days, have to check in on her this morning.
Been a while since her 3rd shot so her protection has probably dropped a bit, if she was unvaccinated I have no doubt she would be in hospital.

MBB, my sincere best wishes for your mum and a complete recovery. And to you and the rest of your family. Keep up the clear fluids and zinc and vit D rich foods to her (and other immune nutrients). Thoughts are with you mate.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 08, 2022, 09:10:15 am
Best wishes MBB to your mother for a full speedy recovery...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on October 08, 2022, 09:14:26 am
Best wishes to your mother for a quick and full recovery MBB.

One of our neighbours has just recovered after being very sick with COVID.  She said that it really knocked her.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on October 08, 2022, 09:29:12 am
Sorry to hear your news MBB
I hope your Mum has a quick and full recovery.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 08, 2022, 12:31:59 pm
Thanks guys.
Better today, still got a bad cough. Fever appears to be over.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on October 08, 2022, 12:38:11 pm
Right before the election as predicted.

My mum has covid now and she is very sick. Has had a fever for 5 days, have to check in on her this morning.
Been a while since her 3rd shot so her protection has probably dropped a bit, if she was unvaccinated I have no doubt she would be in hospital.

All the very best to your mum buddy. I'm sure she will recover well.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on October 08, 2022, 02:58:21 pm
All the very best to your mum buddy. I'm sure she will recover well.

X2

I had it a few weeks ago and it knocked me for six so she has my sympathies.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on October 08, 2022, 04:17:24 pm
Thanks guys.
Better today, still got a bad cough. Fever appears to be over.

Really pleased to hear that. May her recovery continue and be rapid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 08, 2022, 04:36:09 pm
Really pleased to hear that. May her recovery continue and be rapid.
x2
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 11, 2022, 08:02:49 pm
Great 10 minute explanation from Feynman on the scientific method, and also how dodgy hypothesis works.
Feynman on Scientific Method. - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYPapE-3FRw)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 20, 2022, 08:41:35 am
Covid deaths on the way up in 2022 in Aus.17% increase and that's on the light side imho given death notices are being manipulated to not include CoVid as the underlying cause yet hospital staff are clearly seeing the evidence.
An increase in Cardiac related deaths linked to CoVid as well with reasons not clear.
Maybe 2022 is just a bad year but I'd be concerned in 2023 if this trend continues and it's obvious hospitals are still running CoVid preventive methods for a reason unlike out in the public .
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on October 20, 2022, 10:44:43 am
Maybe 2022 is just a bad year but I'd be concerned in 2023 if this trend continues and it's obvious hospitals are still running CoVid preventive methods for a reason unlike out in the public .
Certainly I think the safer path is to remain sceptical, minimise exposing yourself to risk without going overboard, assume a lot of the current decision making is politically based and not based on science.

In the lead up to elections the politicians have taken control again, and things are changing, but the official health message hasn't really change much at all.

As an aside, I know two people extremely crook with COVID at the moment, it's not fun and not trivial like a seasonal cold. Under the current rules they would be free to go about public life, but fortunately they are able to isolate responsibly, but many won't and like yourself I think that attitiude doesn't bode well for Autumn / Winter 2023! My GP reckons booster time should be Jan / Feb next year, and to expect a surge in cases April / May.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on October 20, 2022, 02:54:13 pm
Just towards the last 3 days of my 2 week stint to Hawaii.

Covid not even rating a mention here, very few wearing masks.

I haven't bothered with mask wearing. 

Has been great.  Average temperatures between 20 and 28 all day.  Seen it rain twice sporadically.

Coming home with a tan.  I understand why the Americans are the most obese nation on the planet.  They're portions are ridiculous.

This has been the most expensive holiday I've ever been on given the disparity between Aussie and USA dollar. 

Covid doesn't get any news coverage here either.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on October 28, 2022, 04:29:12 pm
Quote
There could hardly be a more damning illustration of Australia’s double standards on COVID-19. On Friday night, Matthew Wade, wicketkeeper for the host nation at the T20 World Cup, is competing against England in Melbourne despite having tested positive for the virus.

In the meantime, Novak Djokovic, still scarred by his deportation at the whim of a government desperate to demonise the unvaccinated, languishes in confusion as to whether he will even be allowed into the country to chase his 10th Australian Open title.

The inconsistency of the rules is enough to make you scream.

We saw as much at this year’s Commonwealth Games in Birmingham, where, after 10 days of fervent mask-wearing and bubble-forming befitting Australia’s perception of England as a plague zone, the green-and-gold fielded Tahlia McGrath for the women’s T20 final regardless of the fact she was COVID-positive.

Somehow, it perfectly encapsulated the hypocrisy that has defined much of Australia’s hard-line pandemic response. If there is a piece of dutiful COVID theatre to perform, its athletes are first in the queue. But if there is a match to be won, all protocols go out of the window.

In one sense, the relaxations are to be welcomed. But in another, they expose the absurdity of what is still happening to Djokovic. The Serb remains scarred by his ordeal last winter, where he was incarcerated in a glorified Melbourne detention centre, then finally thrown out of Australia after the immigration minister ruled he could be a lightning rod for anti-vaxxers. It was, as the Australian Lawyers’ Alliance put it, an “Orwellian” decision that punished Djokovic more for the way he thought than the way he acted.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on October 28, 2022, 04:41:30 pm


Laughable.
Wade shouldnt be playing, until well.
The tennis clown was in a different time and was rightly tossed out of the country AT THE TIME.
Today however he should probably be allowed in... if hes covid free.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 07, 2022, 12:50:46 pm
These big corporations must be so dependant on the general public having little of no long term memory.

I notice Pfizer and Moderna are now promoting the benefits of bivalent boosters, these are basically a blend of two or more distinct vaccines that work a little differently against different strains. makes sense.

But go back 6 or 12 months, and Pfizer was basically kyboshing claims from Astrazeneca that such an approach was most likely to deliver the best result, they(Pfizer) actually argued against cross vaccination, and now they have squashed the opposition they are basically promoting cross vaccination. None of you should be surprised by this, lawyers and executives are running the show not health professionals!

Luckily for many Aussies, local GPs and Specialists were on the ball and actively pursued the cross vaccination strategy in advance. Those of you who were recipients of such strategies should be very happy, it looks like the protection you received was at least 2 or 3 fold better, at least in the short term.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 24, 2022, 01:30:31 pm
We should all be concerned about the COVID related riots breaking out in China overnight, not because it's overdue but because the Chinese politicians have a history of distracting the public with a political / military conflict.

I'd be ultra-nervous if I was in Taiwan at the moment, I suspect it's the distraction Xi Jinping will be looking for!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on November 24, 2022, 01:39:57 pm
800 or so Australians have died of COVID in the last 7 weeks.  It's fashionable to pot Dan and all things government ATM, but after having a family member go very close recently thank f### for our public health system is there.  It ain't perfect and it perennially struggles but it does help people.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on November 24, 2022, 01:56:20 pm
800 or so Australians have died of COVID in the last 7 weeks.  It's fashionable to pot Dan and all things government ATM, but after having a family member go very close recently thank f### for our public health system is there.  It ain't perfect and it perennially struggles but it does help people.
Glad to hear your family member got through it, it's so far from over it's not funny.

It sort of poses a glaring question doesn't it, .................... What is freedom?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 24, 2022, 02:59:13 pm
800 or so Australians have died of COVID in the last 7 weeks.  It's fashionable to pot Dan and all things government ATM, but after having a family member go very close recently thank f### for our public health system is there.  It ain't perfect and it perennially struggles but it does help people.
Problem is the health system is near collapse and even to the point wannabe Nurses are going to be getting a free education and 5k payment as inducements to attract them and stick it out for a couple of years. Dont like or trust Andrews but I'll give him a tick for trying.They will stick the 2 years then leave and thats going to be the problem, GP's are another story and bulk billing was a great idea but its not going to keep GP's in the system or going to remote locations.
The whole system has relied upon good will from Nurses, GP's and Ambos to keep it running but thats worn thin with CoVid and Private Insurance has become a necessity like it is in the USA and maybe we need to look at the tax system being raised in levels like in European countries to provide the necessary funding to prevent us going down that path which only leads to inequality and sub standard care for the poor.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on November 29, 2022, 03:47:31 pm
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/more-than-33-000-covid-19-fines-withdrawn-in-nsw-after-legal-challenge/ar-AA14FCsE?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e1ca2bd3294d4ba89d47ddd074e2a607

Quote
More than half of the COVID-19 fines issued in New South Wales during the pandemic will be withdrawn after a court battle between a Sydney legal centre and the state government.

The NSW Supreme Court today heard two test cases brought by Redfern Legal Centre arguing the offence descriptions provided on the fine notices were too vague and therefore were legally invalid.

The Commissioner of Fines Administration's lawyer, David Kell SC, conceded the two notices did not "sufficiently state or describe the offences in general terms" nor did the fines "identify the offence-creating provision", ruling the fines invalid.

The government agreed to refund all money paid, withdraw their fines and pay the legal costs.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 21, 2022, 05:20:40 pm
Doctors and Nurses being censored, who would have thought that?... ;D

https://www.news.com.au/technology/science/human-body/dr-kerryn-phelps-reveals-devastating-covid-vaccine-injury-says-doctors-have-been-censored/news-story/0c1fa02818c99a5ff65f5bf852a382cf

Good luck with any in depth research being published too especially if its findings are legally provocative  in nature and could be used
by injury affected vaccine recipients for compensation.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 21, 2022, 06:42:54 pm
Doctors and Nurses being censored, who would have thought that?... ;D

https://www.news.com.au/technology/science/human-body/dr-kerryn-phelps-reveals-devastating-covid-vaccine-injury-says-doctors-have-been-censored/news-story/0c1fa02818c99a5ff65f5bf852a382cf

Good luck with any in depth research being published too especially if its findings are legally provocative  in nature and could be used
by injury affected vaccine recipients for compensation.
Kerryn Phelps, nuff said.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on January 16, 2023, 11:37:11 am
I'm not sure what to think about this issue of COVID testing and travel, I gather we can't have it both ways, our own freedom to move about internationally while also placing restrictions on arrivals seems untenable. So I suspect we either accept being tested and quarantined or we set foreign travellers free.

The problem I see in the short term is a resource issue. Already the US has flagged excessive numbers of arrivals from China testing positive. The problem is China's own health system is overrun, and China provides little in the way of advanced COVID infection treatment to the general public even if the resources were not stretched. So the Chinese wealthy are basically escaping China to have their COVID treated under Western systems, it's better to risk quarantine in the foreign location than rely on China's domestic system. Some rights activists claim it's alarmist, as it's only a small percent age of China's population that can afford to do this, but that small percentage can more than overwhelm Australia's health resources.

Flights are arriving in the US and UK with up to 40% of the passengers positive for COVID, is COVID treatment being outsourced by the Chinese Government?

Of course this is very profitable for private or semi-private health systems in foreign locations, but what happens to you or I if we fall ill and cannot get a bed?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 22, 2023, 12:14:44 pm
Where do the vaccine naysayers go with this little gem, the foundations of their opposition to vaccines just crumbled!

https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/02/unvaccinated-more-likely-to-have-heart-attack-stroke-after-covid-study-finds/

Let me summarise, this beautifully simple scientific measure!

Unvaccinated COVID patients more likely to suffer a heart attack or stroke after the infection than someone who is vaccinated!

"Nah, twas da vacsine dat dun it!", werz mi lawya?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 27, 2023, 10:55:48 am
https://au.yahoo.com/news/covid-19-likely-originated-lab-153104757.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on February 27, 2023, 11:33:26 am
https://au.yahoo.com/news/covid-19-likely-originated-lab-153104757.html

10 countries say its impossible.
USA say its highly likely.

Even with some 'chinese influence', that is a huge turnaround that makes me think its more propaganda from the US.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 27, 2023, 11:39:31 am
10 countries say its impossible.
USA say its highly likely.

Even with some 'chinese influence', that is a huge turnaround that makes me think its more propaganda from the US.
Agreed, why would you ask the Department of Energy to secretly review the Sars-CoV-2 outbreak?

Probably as a political tool, because they can do it without reputations being tarnished in their own field of expertise, energy!

People in Australia should accept the reports from the Australia Scientist who was on the ground in Wuhan and is now back here working at our own Secure Virology Lab in Geelong, Danielle Anderson. Paraphrasing she said it was a joke to claim it was a Wuhan lab outbreak.

Personally, I think the lab leak hypothesis will let China off the hook for the real crime. The real crime now appears to be that Chinese health officials knew of a viral outbreak months before the deadly virus mutated to become more virulent, and covered it up. With the roots of the outbreak occurring in the southern region nearly a thousand kilometres from Wuhan. But if they had gone public they might have suffered economic damage to the economies engine room in GuangXi and GuangDong province. I also read late last year that there is now a high confidence traceable link to wild animal farming / hunting near China's southern border and the Wuhan wet market. In that regard the outbreak was a consequence of human actions, but not from actions in a virology lab.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on February 27, 2023, 11:47:29 am
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/26/covid-virus-likely-laboratory-leak-us-energy-department

A few quotes from that article :

The conclusion from the energy department – which oversees a network of 17 US laboratories, including areas of advanced biology – is considered significant despite the fact that, as the report said, the agency made its updated judgment with “low confidence”.

The energy department’s updated findings run counter to reports by four other US intelligence agencies that concluded the epidemic started as the result of natural transmission from an infected animal. Two agencies remain undecided.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 27, 2023, 11:50:23 am
I don’t get the fascination with COVID’s origin story. Whatever the truth, it was a diabolical screw up. It either originated in the wet market which is like a Petri dish for zoonotic transfer or leaked from a lab which would be a major screw up. But the latter seems to be a mere jumping off point for the idea that the Chinese deliberately unleashed a bio weapon on the world. Yet the way the Covid story unfolded suggests the Chinese were totally unprepared for the pandemic.

You’d think that a country that was about to release an infectious disease would do a little bit of prep work. Maybe isolating a vaccine or treatment before doing so would be nice. Having some sort of plan to ensure the pandemic won’t disrupt your own economy would be fine and dandy too. But the Chinese were caught with their pants down on both accounts. The vaccine they pushed, Sinovac, was second rate and pride prevented them from accepting vaccines from the West. Presumably, other countries that the Chinese “helped” by providing Sinovac for free wouldn’t be as grateful as the Chinese had hoped. They then tried to limit the damage at home by pretending it didn’t exist. They also relied on lockdowns well after effective mRNA vaccines were available and it was clear that Omicron was too infectious to be contained in that fashion. That has created an economic slowdown. If the Chinese had released Covid deliberately, it was one of the biggest own goals in history. Baldrick would have been happy to claim it as his own cunning plan.

No doubt there would be value in determining the origin of Covid from a scientific point of view. Maybe the US could benefit politically by establishing that the Chinese screwed up although the way the US handled the pandemic was hardly a study in good governance. But the Chinese won’t pay any compensation or accept any blame. What’s the point?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 27, 2023, 12:04:40 pm
I don’t get the fascination with COVID’s origin story.
I suppose the media want someone to blame, it's human nature.

The driver for finding the origins of Sars-CoV-2 is of course making sure we get early warning of the next outbreak, and there is very high confidence there will be one, it's a when not an if debate.

For me the big question, the one the media tends to gloss over, is why they are not asking the hard question of western politicians who had been warned about this event almost 15 years earlier and did nothing to prepare for it?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on February 27, 2023, 12:07:28 pm
I recall hearing Michael Osterholm (American epidemiologist) in the early days of the pandemic saying that infectious disease experts have for decades been warning governments that an outbreak like this was simply a matter of when, not if, and that governments needed to be prepared. These were global warnings, not just about China.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 27, 2023, 12:13:31 pm
There is a bizarre aspect to the pandemic, it made some people very very rich, because they were ready to act in the absence of actions by states. They had known about and heeded the warnings, reaping huge sums of money from sovereign states for the solution in the process.

One of the very early "canaries" that politicians ignored has become a Moderna billionaire!

Then politicians managed the pandemic based on economic costs, sacrificing lives to limit economic damage.

Yet if politicians had heeded the warning, and the issue was addressed by funding basic science, it would have been the sovereign states reaping the financial reward rather than managing the cost!

Who should we be jailing, some poor science schmuck who alerted the world of the virus, or the politicians who knew a pandemic was coming and did nothing costing us all billions of dollars and millions of lives?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 27, 2023, 12:47:27 pm
If COVID originated in a LAB it wasn't bad enough to warrant being developed there which instantly dismisses that argument unless we are all ticking time bombs waiting to go off (evidence points to this not being the case but that could change).

I've had it finally.  Sure it knocks you around a bit, but at worst it was nothing too untoward.  Certainly not worth the shutdowns we faced, but I recognise that those decisions were made with limited information and incorrect assumptions (every covid case would end up in hospital).  If you hadn't told me about a pandemic floating around and the requisite symptoms, I might have just thought I was run down and suffering from the flu or something a bit like it.  The symptoms did hang around for about 4-8 weeks, and there was an element of weirdness to the symptoms as they were highly variable but realistically they all passed easily enough from what I can tell.  I can appreciate how people who were already halfway to deaths door would have likely succumbed to it, but I don't believe that applies to the majority.  If you were unlucky enough to have had a stroke, Pneumonia, heart failure (manageable with treatment but still a deaths door scenario) those people would likely have died from it.  Thing is COVID was a tip someone over the edge scenario, not a killer itself.  We couldnt have known that originally but why is it that people can put their hand up and say this now?

We all know it, everyone who has any cognitive ability understands it, but for political reasons, no one will ever admit it.  Particularly with the impending economic doom our society is facing. 

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 27, 2023, 01:00:21 pm
If you’ve been vaccinated, then the vaccine may well be the reason your symptoms weren’t that serious. That’s the thing that’s often forgotten when we look back on the pandemic. We assume that Covid would have been the same for us if we’d had it before vaccines were available. Not so. It was a lot more lethal then.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 27, 2023, 01:05:44 pm
If you’ve been vaccinated, then the vaccine may well be the reason your symptoms weren’t that serious. That’s the thing that’s often forgotten when we look back on the pandemic. We assume that Covid would have been the same for us if we’d had it before vaccines were available. Not so. It was a lot more lethal then.

The data points to this not being the case though Mav.  3 doses, with my last does greater than 12 months from my infection.  According to the data (not mine) efficacy of vaccination is limited to 3 months and drops remarkably afterwards which is why we are up to 5 vaccinations in some circles.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 27, 2023, 01:19:42 pm
You’re just 1 data point though. That reminds me of an old dude who ambled down the street in war torn Sarajevo during daytime while snipers were active. The footage showed bullets hitting the road around him but he made it through untouched. I guess he would have said that the danger from snipers was overstated.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 27, 2023, 01:24:25 pm
The data points to this not being the case though Mav.  3 doses, with my last does greater than 12 months from my infection.  According to the data (not mine) efficacy of vaccination is limited to 3 months and drops remarkably afterwards which is why we are up to 5 vaccinations in some circles.
The real problem is public expectation.

The truth is most vaccines fall in efficacy after a few months, it's the reason why influenza vaccines are seasonal, even if you had that type of vaccine a few years back when it returns you will need another. But that doesn't mean you haven't developed some level of immune memory, which helps diminish the effects.

The rare vaccines are the vaccines that work for life!

The anti-vaccination chatter hides the real risk, which is the lottery of getting Sars-CoV-2 not having been vaccinated. That latest heart health study shows the risk for unvaccinated is something 300% to 500% higher than for vaccinated people, and that is on top of already knowing that unvaccinated are about 1900% more likely to get severe COVID(ICU) than vaccinated people. But even so the public is still free to choose whether to be vaccinated or not, just I wish they wouldn't justify their choice by spreading a bunch of public misinformation.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on February 27, 2023, 01:33:07 pm
There's a fair bit of 20/20 hindsight going on now, 3 Leos.

We must factor in that we were unprepared for a pandemic and in many instances, flying in the dark; learning as we go. Also important to remember that our health care system was also not set up properly for a pandemic so most strong reactions (re lockdowns) were also for over burdened health care workers/institutions - we simply had to limit infections to limit hospital admissions.

Wingman MAV and the Spotted One are absolutely correct re severity of Covid relative to vaccine or no vaccine. I know how I respond to seasonal flues, and when I got Covid (twice), and having been vaccinated, the symptoms though flu-like were markedly reduced.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 27, 2023, 05:19:39 pm
But even so the public is still free to choose whether to be vaccinated or not, just I wish they wouldn't justify their choice by spreading a bunch of public misinformation.
I had an interesting encounter with a bloke in the local park while walking my dog. After he started by asking about my dog and showing me a picture of his dog, somehow things took an unexpected turn. He talked about his mother having cancer and the forces of evil trying to stop people getting the cures promoted on the internet. As a subtle way of distancing myself from that nonsense I mentioned the fact that Steve Jobs had an eminently treatable cancer but he managed to kill himself by adopting alternative (quack) cures such as vitamin C. Lo and behold, this guy then segues into another conspiracy theory, saying Jobs didn’t do what other elites did in his circumstances. He said it was well known that rich people travelled to Jeffrey Epstein’s island where young girls were imprisoned in dark basements and scared with spiders and other nasties so their adrenaline could be sucked from their bodies as a cure for cancer. I’m pretty sure he suggested some woman put out a video saying she was forced to kill her daughter as part of that conspiracy. Mind blown! The guy was friendly and pleasant but WTF …

Another weirdo is Kate Langbroek. A Hun story about her exploits on The Project says it all:
Quote
Waleed Aly shuts down The Project co-host Kate Langbroek over bizarre ‘conspiracy’ rant
Waleed Aly has shut down The Project co-host Kate Langbroek after she launched into a bizarre conspiracy theory rant on Tuesday night.

The discussion occurred during a segment on the 15-minute city conspiracy that has recently exploded around the world, including here in Australia.

The 15-minute city concept is a simple one – everyday essentials such as healthcare, schools, work, shops and eateries should be a convenient 15-minute walk, cycle or public transport trip away to make life more enjoyable and sustainable.

However, it has been hijacked by conspiracists, who claim it’s all part of a grand master plan by global elites to lock down and control the population.

After a video package explaining the concept and the associated conspiracy, Langbroek told the panel she enjoyed certain conspiracies, and was asked whether she believed in this one – which is when things took an odd turn.

“Um, well, I don’t know about you, but I have been locked down by governments recently, so I’m like, it’s kind of an easy thing to go, ‘oh, conspiracy theorists’, however, let us just remember this – that in the 1600s a guy called Galileo was put in jail, and I think died in jail, because he said the earth went around the sun,” Langbroek began.

That prompted Aly to sarcastically chime in: “Oh well, that’s that then”.

“OK, because that at the time was considered to be heresy, and now we know it to be the truth,” Langbroek continued.

“Yeah, but that’s not a conspiracy,” Aly argued.

“It was then Waleed!” a frustrated Langbroek replied, with Aly asking her to explain what the conspiracy actually was.

“The conspiracy was that what he believed was wrong, what he was telling people was wrong,” she said.
Aly acknowledged he could “see what you’re saying”, but argued it was a “slightly different argument”.

“I’m just feeling increasingly like there’s a battle for control of people, clearly, everywhere you go, there are cameras, everywhere you go – I just think, I don’t think conspiracy theorists in some cases are that crazy,” Langbroek continued.

Co-host Sarah Harris then interjected to lighten the mood, joking that a conspiracy theory that all birds were actually robots “is pretty crazy though”, prompting a strange reply from Langbroek.

“I don’t know about all of them, but I do know birds have got tiny little brains capable of anything … easily influenced like the sheep,” she said, before bleating on air.

“I guess the case has been made,” Aly said.

“I get the idea that people are losing trust in government and things like that … but the problem is the logical extension of that is any time someone comes up with what might be a good idea, we’ll just want to kill it because we’ll decide it’s a conspiracy somehow.”

The Project debate comes as the 15-minute city issue continues to blow up across the world, with thousands of protesters attending the Stop Oxford: No 15 Minute Cities community day of action in Oxford in the UK over the weekend.

I’m pretty amazed that Waleed Aly wasn’t able to shoot down her nonsense more effectively. She had the temerity to compare her fellow conspiracy theorists to Galileo. He was a scientist who went where the facts took him. He was then attacked by the Church on the basis of beliefs that were resistant to contrary proof. Conspiracy  theorists are the inheritors of the Church’s anti-scientific beliefs, though thankfully they have less power.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on February 27, 2023, 05:34:55 pm
Whilst i think Kate's Galileo connection is bizarre, I think the broader issue of increased surveillance of the populace by governments, electronic devices like phones, smart watches etc. that can track your exact location, possess loads of personal and important information, all there for the taking by corporations etc., is pretty real and pretty valid. The ability to know plenty about an individual or group is off the charts compared to what it once was. Maybe that was more along the lines of what Kate was trying to say.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 27, 2023, 05:58:32 pm
I think she said what she meant and she meant what she said. If she wanted to go off on the surveillance State she could have done that. The moment we reframe lunatic conspiracy theories that way is when we lose the ability to work for the common good. Every philanthropic policy can be undermined as some attempt by out-of-control governments and elites to turn the people into sheep. Try to take guns off the street and that’s the Government trying to prevent patriots from fighting against tyranny. Running vaccination programs will lead to accusations that chips are being inserted to track everybody. By all means, attack the use of tracking and pooling of private information but destroying beneficial government programs won’t do anything in that regard.

PS: Feel free to find some evidence that she has some coherent world view that should earn her some respect.

Edit: I did think she’d been uncharitable towards a mentally ill guy who believed she was in his house but he was given a substantial jail sentence suggesting his issues may have been caused by drug abuse rather than mental illness. Criticism withdrawn on that issue.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on February 27, 2023, 06:14:45 pm
I think she said what she meant and she meant what she said. If she wanted to go off on the surveillance State she could have done that. The moment we reframe lunatic conspiracy theories that way is when we lose the ability to work for the common good. Every philanthropic policy can be undermined as some attempt by out-of-control governments and elites to turn the people into sheep. Try to take guns off the street and that’s the Government trying to prevent patriots from fighting against tyranny. Running vaccination programs will lead to accusations that chips are being inserted to track everybody. By all means, attack the use of tracking and pooling of private information but destroying beneficial government programs won’t do anything in that regard.............................................

Yes, I guess those are fair points, and perhaps I gave her too much BOD.

At any rate, the walkable city is not exactly a new concept. It's called the "New Urbanism", and it's been around for decades.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 27, 2023, 07:05:21 pm
There's a fair bit of 20/20 hindsight going on now, 3 Leos.

We must factor in that we were unprepared for a pandemic and in many instances, flying in the dark; learning as we go. Also important to remember that our health care system was also not set up properly for a pandemic so most strong reactions (re lockdowns) were also for over burdened health care workers/institutions - we simply had to limit infections to limit hospital admissions.

Wingman MAV and the Spotted One are absolutely correct re severity of Covid relative to vaccine or no vaccine. I know how I respond to seasonal flues, and when I got Covid (twice), and having been vaccinated, the symptoms though flu-like were markedly reduced.

Not really I suggested as much earlier in the piece and have acknowledged that we were unprepared for any of the pandemic but can see without a shadow of a doubt that many of the measures to contain the pandemic actually had greater and worse outcomes than letting it rip probably would have.  Thing is in medical circles they knew before everyone was vaxxed what the likelihood was for the majority.  A quick infection and thats it, some would cop it bad, most wouldn't even know they had it.

Remember I was in the health care system and left in January of last year.  I spoke to people who were responsible for the covid pathways and monitoring before they needed care. 

I caught covid God knows where and my symptoms were as bad as anyone could have had without needing medical treatment and all it took to control it was paracetamol to really control them.

People stating and over stating the severity of covid are not helping matters.  The cat is out of the bag, and I'll call a spade a spade, and an enlightened mind will entertain the idea that we made some errors.

We did what we thought was necessary, and the data should show a catastrophic number of unvaccinated covid deaths if even one iota of what is stated about the data is true.  Thing is most of them would have had multiple co morbidities.  For those who don't understand what that means something that would likely have killed them anyway.


Lots of what has been said here is an angle of the truth.  A bit like the solar vs nuclear debate.  Its all an angle rather than a known truth.

This last month in particular has seen the trains go back to full capacity and the roads well and truly out of control.  They've stopped counting numbers,  they've stopped testing without a GP referral, the data collection is over and the results are in.  The pandemic was a false alarm.

It would be political suicide to come out and put that point out there with the hyper inflation we are facing now.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on February 27, 2023, 07:08:40 pm
I had an interesting encounter with a bloke in the local park while walking my dog. After he started by asking about my dog and showing me a picture of his dog, somehow things took an unexpected turn. He talked about his mother having cancer and the forces of evil trying to stop people getting the cures promoted on the internet. As a subtle way of distancing myself from that nonsense I mentioned the fact that Steve Jobs had an eminently treatable cancer but he managed to kill himself by adopting alternative (quack) cures such as vitamin C. Lo and behold, this guy then segues into another conspiracy theory, saying Jobs didn’t do what other elites did in his circumstances. He said it was well known that rich people travelled to Jeffrey Epstein’s island where young girls were imprisoned in dark basements and scared with spiders and other nasties so their adrenaline could be sucked from their bodies as a cure for cancer. I’m pretty sure he suggested some woman put out a video saying she was forced to kill her daughter as part of that conspiracy. Mind blown! The guy was friendly and pleasant but WTF …

Another weirdo is Kate Langbroek. A Hun story about her exploits on The Project says it all:
I’m pretty amazed that Waleed Aly wasn’t able to shoot down her nonsense more effectively. She had the temerity to compare her fellow conspiracy theorists to Galileo. He was a scientist who went where the facts took him. He was then attacked by the Church on the basis of beliefs that were resistant to contrary proof. Conspiracy  theorists are the inheritors of the Church’s anti-scientific beliefs, though thankfully they have less power.
notice how the second i suggest a logical thought process this sort of discussion comes up?  The reality is, that this is just the opposit extreme to those who spent the better part of the last couple of years working from home afraid to go out in public.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 27, 2023, 08:30:46 pm
Thryleon, you’ll note that my comments followed a quote from LP regarding anti-vax disinformation. I wasn’t implying that your post was an example of that and although I can’t speak for LP I doubt if he was doing that either. The nature of this thread is that we bounce from 1 aspect to another. Your post, after the 1st paragraph, wasn’t really anything to do with posts that preceded it which focussed on whether Covid came from the lab or not. You can’t assume that posts subsequent to yours build on your post rather than changing the subject a bit. Tangents are everywhere in our threads.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 27, 2023, 11:39:07 pm
10 countries say its impossible.
USA say its highly likely.

Even with some 'chinese influence', that is a huge turnaround that makes me think its more propaganda from the US.
I wouldnt trust China or the USA so I have an open mind on the Lab leak theory, agree with LP the Chinese covered up the outbreak and allowed it to spread and mutate before informing other countries which is probably a bigger crime.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on February 28, 2023, 03:05:36 am
I’m pretty amazed that Waleed Aly wasn’t able to shoot down her nonsense more effectively. She had the temerity to compare her fellow conspiracy theorists to Galileo. He was a scientist who went where the facts took him. He was then attacked by the Church on the basis of beliefs that were resistant to contrary proof. Conspiracy  theorists are the inheritors of the Church’s anti-scientific beliefs, though thankfully they have less power.
Ignoring the Galileo comments which are just bizarre, Aly's problem countering the rest of the weirdo shizen highlights the issue. You can't oppose fantasy with fact, the best strategy is to extend the fantasy into any or all of the logical absurdities that it presents.

Many of the nutters suffer a disillusion that has them thinking they know something you don't, I see it as a form of pattern recognition, like when someone sees Jesus in some toast. But the more insidious types have learnt that you cannot disprove a negative, and leverage that technicality.

We try to do the rational thing and offer a proof of a positive, and they respond with more fantasy, which leads to circular rubbish.

Instead develop the fantasy with them, and then when they eventually offer a contradiction refer back to it, if that fails you know two things, you are wasting your time, and they are quite possible morons who are either in line for a Darwin Award or a Dunning-Kruger diagnosis.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on February 28, 2023, 08:36:14 am
Remember I was in the health care system and left in January of last year.  I spoke to people who were responsible for the covid pathways and monitoring before they needed care. 

People stating and over stating the severity of covid are not helping matters.  The cat is out of the bag, and I'll call a spade a spade, and an enlightened mind will entertain the idea that we made some errors.

As you know 3 Leos, I also work in health care (mental health) and during the pandemic had plenty of contact with medicos from a number of differing medical specialties. And just like here, there were plenty of differing opinions as to how the pandemic should be handled, how severe the virus was and who were the best qualified to recommend actions (to pollies). The one agreement was that our systems were ill-equipped to handled a massive influx of infected (yes, mostly medically vulnerable folks) people into hospitals.

With respect, I don't think you need an enlightened mind to see errors made. (I use the term hindsight in reference to those who condemn the actions of those in charge during the pandemic assuming that they should have or did know, what we know now). Simple experience and common sense see mistakes were made and we will and have learned from that. First among those lessons is how neglected our hospitals and associated emergency care agencies have been and still are. There are those of us, and I suspect you are among the ranks, who have been pointing out just how inadequate our health care agencies for years... decades! The systems were already stressed and hanging on by a thread before the pandemic.

The vulnerable. Yes there were vulnerable whose health was very compromised and Covid simply dealt the final blow to overwhelm their bodies. However, there were many vulnerable who were undergoing treatment who would have lived without the pandemic delivering a knockout blow. Both groups deserved our best efforts to protect them.

As far as mental health goes... we've learned that lockdowns can and do have a devastating effect on the mental health of many, ranging from those without mental health issues (in fact, creating issues) to those already struggling with mental health issues (worsening them, considerably). And a good % of these folks are still seeking and undergoing treatment in an area horribly under resourced. This area (mental health) is further hampered by the stigmas and ignorance still prevalent in the community. It's improving, but still too slowly.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on February 28, 2023, 04:38:20 pm
notice how the second i suggest a logical thought process this sort of discussion comes up?  The reality is, that this is just the opposit extreme to those who spent the better part of the last couple of years working from home afraid to go out in public.

You can't have a reasonable discussion about it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on February 28, 2023, 06:29:09 pm
In times of difficulty and uncertainty, we all need to take some kind of hit for the greater good. Being over cautious rather than under cautious seems a more sensible approach IMO, when the world really did not have a clear idea of what they were dealing with. There will be a downside to any preventive measure.

https://theconversation.com/did-the-covid-lockdowns-work-heres-what-we-know-two-years-on-176623
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on February 28, 2023, 06:41:17 pm
notice how the second i suggest a logical thought process this sort of discussion comes up?  The reality is, that this is just the opposit extreme to those who spent the better part of the last couple of years working from home afraid to go out in public.

Who was afraid to go out in public ?
I thought people were advised to minimise going out in public, maximise social distancing and try not to breath all over everyone (wear masks) ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on February 28, 2023, 07:37:36 pm
There will be a downside to any preventive measure.
And there will be opponents to any preventative measure too. If unanimous support is needed, then governments would never be able to do anything.

Let’s not forget that various diseases have been stopped in their tracks by concerted government and social action. SARS and MERS were also coronaviruses. Ebola has been contained or eliminated several times. Smallpox, a highly infectious virus, was virtually eliminated as was Polio. Measles was well contained by the MMR vaccine. Rarely have the 2 superpowers been so incompetent at combatting a potential pandemic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 07, 2023, 01:42:14 pm
.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 07, 2023, 04:13:00 pm
There are a number of issues people do not want to hear.

 - Firstly aggressive immediate social isolation policies work to slow the spread, they save lives, but they do social and economic harm, the question may be is the other extreme any less harmful?

 - Detent policies work, using masks to delay/slow the spread, disinfection and sterilisation, limiting travel, restricting business activities, staffing levels, etc, etc.. These things do not stop the spread, nobody I know with any scientific credibility actually made that claim, but they do slow it no matter how many difficulties they also create.

Really, most of the efforts were ultimately about buying time against the worst of the pandemic effects, slow the spread to find a treatment or vaccine, and therefore save lives. Weak political will killed people, that is really self-evident.

What happens next time, I worry now that the politicians will just assume the next pandemic can be resolved by technology, and so they will be even more reluctant to act, a very human way to think, but a virus isn't human!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 08, 2023, 12:03:54 pm
The next pandemic's biggest problem will be the boy who cried wolf factor.

Taking the approach they did was largely ok, provided the pandemic was the threat that it could have been.

Thing is, because it wasn't, the dissenting people, who are now struggling to live, work and put food on the table, will not comply, particularly if they take the road of comply or else.  Our healthcare system was done severe damage by people forcing those who refused vaccination out of the system, particularly when there were some alternatives, and Ill leave that there as I have a very specific example in mind where a nurse was effectively removed from the system, at age 43 and 6 months pregnant, when they offered to start mat leave early, and only return to work vaccinated.  Due to the rigidness of those in charge, she is lost to the healthcare system and was a clinical nurse educator in cardiology.  Very specialised, and sure, no one person is that important, but when you have a nursing shortage, treating people like that is not going to yield good outcomes, and their colleagues will likely agree with them.
 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on March 08, 2023, 12:27:00 pm
I guess one of the problems with the 'after judgement' is always going to be this...

If measures taken prove effective in minimising the damage...the real potential for damage is never realised.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 08, 2023, 12:59:13 pm
The next pandemic's biggest problem will be the boy who cried wolf factor.

Taking the approach they did was largely ok, provided the pandemic was the threat that it could have been.

Thing is, because it wasn't, ................
How many people died in Greece for example?

I think last time I saw the figures the Deaths per Day there tripled at the peak of the pandemic, this wasn't a threat? :o

Deaths in Australia are still about 20,000 per annum up on the long term averages, and it's expected to stay that way for another year or so before it diminishes, provided there isn't another highly contagious virus or variant.

I think those people count for something, it reminds me of the TAC ad, who would you pick from your family as a sacrifice?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 08, 2023, 03:10:27 pm
How many people died in Greece for example?

I think last time I saw the figures the Deaths per Day there tripled at the peak of the pandemic, this wasn't a threat? :o

Deaths in Australia are still about 20,000 per annum up on the long term averages, and it's expected to stay that way for another year or so before it diminishes, provided there isn't another highly contagious virus or variant.

I think those people count for something, it reminds me of the TAC ad, who would you pick from your family as a sacrifice?

LP, the official numbers are statistically biased.  During our peak covid periods, you had record numbers of sick people not getting treatment for serious illnesses, and not going to their appointments, because of the perceived risk the pandemic posed.  Seeing a GP during this time was generally quite difficult, so the whole referral process breaks down and in some cases will lead to misdiagnosis, as well as potential illness and death as a consequence.  I know I rang up to try and get a GP appointment and was only able to get in with a week lag which I found a bit ridiculous but it is what it is.  As a consequence you will see impact adversely to health care for some people, which may very well blow out the morbidity.

When you see official covid numbers,  the problem I see is that there is already a statistical anomaly here.  People who aren't sick or feeling sick, were not guaranteed to be tested, and ergo, didn't get tested unless they had to perform a public duty or felt symptoms or go through mandatory testing.  This means that the actual positive case count could well be far below the total number of positives we have, as the positives we have are likely to be skewed towards those with symptoms, or in a setting where testing was regularly undertaken. 

In Greece the compliance to public precautionary testing is likely to have been avoided.  Knowing how their systems work, bribing an official will get you what you want, when you want it and if you don't have money, you are better off not being sick.  On multiple occasions, I was told that COVID appeared on a death certificate for people that actually never got admitted or a positive diagnosis and no autopsy was performed in those cases.

So, what we have is a death rate for Covid Positive patients who actually had symptoms severe enough to see a doctor, or need to present that positive case to their employer.  Not a death rate for all covid positive people (some will simply have avoided testing) and others may have died from non covid related causes.

This same statistical gymnastics was used initially to assume that 100% of covid positive people, ended up in ICU with pneumonia like symptoms based on bad assumptions, and data coming out of Italy.

Looking at the statistics: Greece 5.55M total covid cases.  Total deaths 34,779.  You hear these numbers and the assumption is that covid isnt the killer that those said it was.  I know you are pointing to the extra deaths per day, but again, you have to weigh each case on its merits, not just the data.

What is good for one country doesn't apply elsewhere for a variety of reasons.  My faith in the ability of our nation to risk manage has been severely dented by many of the measures enforced and promoted during our covid journey.  Thats not going to go away because I am a critical thinker, and Im not someone who is demanding that there is hell to be paid.  My example of that nurse earlier, is someone I know very intimately, and had been attempting to have a child for no less than 5 years, and wasnt about to put their foetus at undue risk, using the same risk assessment techniques she used to assess outcomes for the patients that she saw.  THAT is the underlying point I want to make here.  We have people, who's job and training was to make these sorts of decisions disagreeing with a HR and government mandate.  How does that happen?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 08, 2023, 03:13:47 pm
LP, the official numbers are statistically biased.  During our peak covid periods, you had record numbers of sick people not getting treatment for serious illnesses, and not going to their appointments, because of the perceived risk the pandemic posed.  Seeing a GP during this time was generally quite difficult, so the whole referral process breaks down and in some cases will lead to misdiagnosis, as well as potential illness and death as a consequence.
It's my understanding that wave of illness is still coming, it's why the death rate is expected to remain high for a further extended period, and it wasn't the cause of the short term spike during the pandemic.

Most of those reports correct for the things you are concerned about, it's part of the data normalisation, there is nothing you and I can discuss that the epidemiologists don't already know, it's not some secret discussed in the corners of the dark web.

I used Greece as an example, because if I recall you mentioned you have relatives there and might be travelling to see them soon, so it relates to that analogy of the TAC Ad. Greece is not a special case, region to region the reported figures vary, this depends on local reporting standards and definitions of disease which vary region to region, but the thing is the virus doesn't vary region to region, so you know the truth is pretty much global and you can use a bell curve to establish the most likely figures. A region reporting success is probably under-reporting, and a region reporting devastation is probably over-reporting.

We can see now as the figures retrospectively become more standardised/normalised, the numbers converge to the global mean, and it's not pretty.

If I wanted a worst case scenario to support my assertions more strongly, I could have used the UK, where the high population density meant the peak Death Rate increased by almost tenfold!

It's not spin, it wasn't spin historically, and it won't be spin moving forward.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 08, 2023, 04:29:45 pm
https://www.health.gov.au/health-alerts/covid-19/case-numbers-and-statistics
Looks like three doses of vaccine was enough for most.....still a decent amount of cases being registered and we all know
that there a lot under reported but it will be interesting to see if we get a spike in the winter months and even if we do I doubt it will be as newsworthy as in the past.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 08, 2023, 04:52:59 pm
Matt Hancock was Britain's former health secretary.

(https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/09b86c077ea5199bbc3a681a65f1d1e5)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 08, 2023, 05:10:20 pm
Gee, I hope they weren’t experimenting on homeless people ….  ::) Imagine how sad the Bond franchise will be if it has to dump such brilliant Bond villain storylines …
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 08, 2023, 10:38:07 pm
Another pandemic on the horizon?

H5N1 is infecting millions of animals. If it crosses over to humans, it will be worse than COVID (https://www.salon.com/2023/03/07/h5n1-explainer/), Salon.

Hmmm … a bird flu with 53% mortality in humans would be a nightmare if it mutates to allow human to human transmission. At least there are vaccines and anti-virals available. And even better, anti-vaxxers and anti-lockdown era will be the first to go if it ever reaches pandemic proportions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on March 09, 2023, 12:15:15 am
Another pandemic on the horizon?

H5N1 is infecting millions of animals. If it crosses over to humans, it will be worse than COVID (https://www.salon.com/2023/03/07/h5n1-explainer/), Salon.

Hmmm … a bird flu with 53% mortality in humans would be a nightmare if it mutates to allow human to human transmission. At least there are vaccines and anti-virals available. And even better, anti-vaxxers and anti-lockdown era will be the first to go if it ever reaches pandemic proportions.

Dan quick lock up the playgrounds
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 09, 2023, 08:00:26 am
Dan quick lock up the playgrounds
Aren't you from WA?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 09, 2023, 09:32:04 am
Going after Mark McGowan would be futile though. He’s far too popular given the strength he showed during the pandemic.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 09, 2023, 11:54:54 am
Going after Mark McGowan would be futile though. He’s far too popular given the strength he showed during the pandemic.
McGowan had this huge indigenous population that was alleged to be far more vulnerable to the virus, the same demographic was also highly resistant to the vaccination, and we know nefarious types targeted the fears of remote indigenous populations early on in the pandemic.

I don't get the slamming Dan scenario, given the effectiveness of the WA border closure, we could just as easily criticise Dan for not going as hard as McGowan.

I'm not sure where to place NSW in all this, they seemed to get preferential service from the Feds under Scomo, and yet NSW seems to have caused the most carnage to the wider economy and health of the population. The NSW actions in locking down later and opening up earlier seem to have caused the exact opposite of the intention.

Not sure Qld can be judged much either way, it looks like that at least for Sars-CoV-2 the safest place to be assuming you can get access to medical care as required is somewhere in the tropics.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 09, 2023, 12:21:21 pm
Let’s not forget Dan did get to Covid zero before the infected from Sydney brought it back to Melbourne. And when it became clear that Omicron could no longer be contained, the approach in Victoria shifted. No doubt his critics would say that there was never any point trying to contain Covid as it was always going to mutate. I assume some of them also believed that Putin would conquer Ukraine in 3 days.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on March 09, 2023, 12:52:10 pm
Wonder who was running the show when the Perth Mint started diddling the gold standards.  Now there's something people should be up in arms over.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 09, 2023, 01:31:32 pm
Wonder who was running the show when the Perth Mint started diddling the gold standards.  Now there's something people should be up in arms over.
In fairness to the mint, I believe it complies with globally accepted standards, 4.0 purity(99.99%) and usually supplies above 4.0 with something like 4.5(99.995).

China sits outside those standards, oddly it doesn't require higher purity but it does cap the level of impurities. It's standard practise to "water down" gold to 4.0, usually something less valuable like silver, copper or titanium. What China requires is that any one of those trace metals doesn't exceed a certain threshold, in a way it's China fiddling the books, gaming the system, so that it receives higher purity gold than other nations. I suppose when you think about it, given countries trade in billions and trillions of dollars worth of gold, it adds up in the parts per million.

Managing the purity as close to 4.0 as possible saves a country many millions or even billions of dollars.

For most metals the term commercially pure is used, typically this means the content is above 4.0, it may also mean that certain impurities are minimised or absent, commonly oxygen or hydrogen content are the main concern. Some metals have critical trace element levels, like copper levels in aluminium or titanium.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 09, 2023, 01:46:02 pm
Let’s not forget Dan did get to Covid zero before the infected from Sydney brought it back to Melbourne. And when it became clear that Omicron could no longer be contained, the approach in Victoria shifted. No doubt his critics would say that there was never any point trying to contain Covid as it was always going to mutate. I assume some of them also believed that Putin would conquer Ukraine in 3 days.
I think Andrews and Sutton did as good a job as they could under trying circumstances. Lots of uncertainty and  unknowns. If they had have "let it rip", the unacceptable death toll would be the topic today's discussion. I'm glad they were  conservative and cautious, public safety was his no.1 goal.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 09, 2023, 04:32:46 pm
I think Andrews and Sutton did as good a job as they could under trying circumstances. Lots of uncertainty and  unknowns. If they had have "let it rip", the unacceptable death toll would be the topic today's discussion. I'm glad they were  conservative and cautious, public safety was his no.1 goal.

I think that all of our governments did a pretty good job under the circumstances.

If you look at the current scientific literature, folk who know their stuff are still concerned about the impacts of COVID on health systems and the vulnerable, as well as the ongoing effects of long COVID.  It's laughable that self-taught epidemiologists are claiming that we got it wrong.

By the way, I'm still a NOVID despite being fairly relaxed about mask wearing and social contacts  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 09, 2023, 06:56:48 pm
I think that all of our governments did a pretty good job under the circumstances.

If you look at the current scientific literature, folk who know their stuff are still concerned about the impacts of COVID on health systems and the vulnerable, as well as the ongoing effects of long COVID.  It's laughable that self-taught epidemiologists are claiming that we got it wrong.

By the way, I'm still a NOVID despite being fairly relaxed about mask wearing and social contacts  :)
Depends on the settings you attend, I have 4 family members who went on a cruise, got back last week all with Covid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 10, 2023, 09:43:53 am
Depends on the settings you attend, I have 4 family members who went on a cruise, got back last week all with Covid.

My son and daughter in law got it during a flight back from Bali.

I travel on the train to Melbourne and back, go to the footy, attend RSL meetings, go to restaurants and functions, stand in queues, and have been with family members days before they tested positive.  I’m fully vaccinated and will get my fifth shot soon.  My only concern is that my mobile phone reception hasn’t improved 😇
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 10, 2023, 02:22:39 pm
^^  I was much the same.  Train to and from the city to work full time, went to hawaii on a full flight and back.  Milled around, went to the footy, went to the tennis.

I don't know where I caught covid but I tested positive on the 31st of December last year, started feeling unwell the day before, and before that, had been in the city at Crown staying in for 3 nights.  Had my 40th birthday party at the Esplanade hotel, and had Christmas.

I was the only person to have turned up positive from my birthday to the best of my knowledge.  Its possible my brother carried it with him from the UK on Christmas eve, but he wasnt sick and never tested positive.  Mum did, but I doubt she gave it to me, as I didnt go near her when she was positive, and no one else at christmas caught it.

This is all very strange really. 

It seems very random.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 10, 2023, 03:29:06 pm
^^  I was much the same.  Train to and from the city to work full time, went to hawaii on a full flight and back.  Milled around, went to the footy, went to the tennis.

I don't know where I caught covid but I tested positive on the 31st of December last year, started feeling unwell the day before, and before that, had been in the city at Crown staying in for 3 nights.  Had my 40th birthday party at the Esplanade hotel, and had Christmas.

I was the only person to have turned up positive from my birthday to the best of my knowledge.  Its possible my brother carried it with him from the UK on Christmas eve, but he wasnt sick and never tested positive.  Mum did, but I doubt she gave it to me, as I didnt go near her when she was positive, and no one else at christmas caught it.

This is all very strange really. 

It seems very random.

Happy 40th for late last year, 3 Leos. Also a later December birthday boy... ordinary time for a birthday!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 10, 2023, 08:41:11 pm
Interesting theory concerning Covid resistance: Genes That Helped Us Survive Black Death Continue to Influence Our Mortality Today (https://www.sciencealert.com/genes-that-helped-us-survive-black-death-continue-to-influence-our-mortality-today), ScienceAlert.com

Apparently, having identical copies of the ERAP2 gene makes it 40-50% more likely to survive the Black Death or other respiratory diseases. Unfortunately, a phenomenon called ‘balancing selection’ suggests that that pair of identical genes also makes it more likely that the person will suffer from Crohn’s disease and diabetes type 1.

That’s worth remembering for those who like to extrapolate from their own experiences. The fact that person A avoids Covid or finds it was nothing to worry about after being infected doesn’t suggest the Covid response was overblown, especially if the vaccine made a contribution. Genetic differences can help or hurt. And unfortunately what you gain on the roundabout you might lose on the swings.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on March 10, 2023, 10:13:12 pm
Unleash the Kraken!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 11, 2023, 09:05:35 pm
Happy 40th for late last year, 3 Leos. Also a later December birthday boy... ordinary time for a birthday!
it really does suck Baggers.

I had a venue verbally say they'd host my 40th only to pull out by 7th of December which made getting another venue VERY difficult.  Managed to pull it off but fork me dead that was stressful.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 13, 2023, 08:48:39 am
it really does suck Baggers.

I had a venue verbally say they'd host my 40th only to pull out by 7th of December which made getting another venue VERY difficult.  Managed to pull it off but fork me dead that was stressful.

P1ss poor form from the venue. Glad you found a venue... at one of the most difficult times of the year!

The one time having a birthday late December was great - my 21st. The old man put up a huge tent, spread about 10 square metres of topsoil inside, set up a jukebox, tubs of ice and grog, copious amounts of food. We invited relos & friends from Sydney and Canberra who joined us from Christmas. Weather was hot so everyone slept in the house, in the tent, on floors and on the lawns! Christmas celebrations went for a couple of days, recovery 27th, birthday celebrations on the 28th went for a few days, then NY celebrations! Last person left around Jan 3rd! What a week! Since then, crickets and tumbleweeds... and socks for birthday gifts  ???
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 13, 2023, 06:02:08 pm
Are you a boxing day baby too?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 13, 2023, 06:09:55 pm
Are you a boxing day baby too?

Two days later, 3 Leos... 28th.  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 14, 2023, 12:49:09 pm
I was the only person to have turned up positive from my birthday to the best of my knowledge.  Its possible my brother carried it with him from the UK on Christmas eve, but he wasnt sick and never tested positive.  Mum did, but I doubt she gave it to me, as I didnt go near her when she was positive, and no one else at christmas caught it.

This is all very strange really. 

It seems very random.
They now know people can hold a reservoir of virus that escapes the immune system, which emerges to cause a second round of infection later. I suppose if that is true, there will be many people who are asymptomatic but still potentially infectious despite testing negative.

Ultimately, it's just another reason to get vaccinated.

There is a young lass on Youtube called Physics Girl, people should search her up to find out what the risk of letting it run wild could be, because not dying doesn't mean you have escaped harm. They still do not fully understand why this happens, but they are getting an idea about who is more vulnerable, and it's a problem for young women in particular.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 14, 2023, 12:53:21 pm
Two days later, 3 Leos... 28th.  :)

How about we have joint birthday party, 3 Leos, a huge party, on the 27th at the end of this year! Who knows, the club might loan us the 2023 Premiership Cup for the event  :D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 14, 2023, 12:54:18 pm
How about we have joint birthday party, 3 Leos, a huge party, on the 27th at the end of this year! Who knows, the club might loan us the 2023 Premiership Cup for the event  :D
Not a terrible idea at all.  Maybe the club will allow us a venue that wont cancel either!! 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 17, 2023, 02:46:50 pm
Another study supports the theory that Covid started with animals (raccoon dogs) in a wet market: The Strongest Evidence Yet That an Animal Started the Pandemic, The Atlantic. (https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2023/03/covid-origins-research-raccoon-dogs-wuhan-market-lab-leak/673390/)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 17, 2023, 03:36:57 pm
Another study supports the theory that Covid started with animals (raccoon dogs) in a wet market: The Strongest Evidence Yet That an Animal Started the Pandemic, The Atlantic. (https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2023/03/covid-origins-research-raccoon-dogs-wuhan-market-lab-leak/673390/)
I think it's self-evident that the pandemic was a zoonosis of sorts.

The Lab theory is political bullsh1t, some using it as an excuse to be racist, others using it as an excuse to justify doing nothing!

I'm cautious about many of these bat, rat, cat, racoon type reports. Not because it's impossible, in fact it may even be highly likely, but because a lot come out of or are funded by groups rallying against the live animal trade. While I'm not opposed to protesting against those cruelties, I'm not prepared to bastardise the science to make political ground. I'm also well aware that any little success they have on that front will next be directed at our own farmers. That doesn't mean that I'm calling for no action, it just means I retain a healthy scepticism.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 22, 2023, 12:21:29 pm
Some good news: it looks like Long-Covid was a much smaller issue than it appeared to be early on:
Long COVID Comes Into the Light, Slate. (https://slate.com/technology/2023/03/long-covid-symptoms-studies-research-variant.html)

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 29, 2023, 12:11:58 am
Finally, we have closure on that horse drug ‘COVID cure’, ivermectin. Well, sort of (https://www.theage.com.au/national/finally-we-have-closure-on-that-horse-drug-covid-cure-ivermectin-well-sort-of-20230328-p5cvsq.html), The Age.

2 big and well-conducted studies have put the final nails in the Ivermectin coffin. But like vampires, the Ivermectin crowd can’t be killed off simply by science. They’re now hawking Ivermectin as a flu treatment  :o

Pity Flyboy isn’t around to argue that some study of 5 patients in Uganda shows it works really well.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 29, 2023, 08:27:55 am
So much money wasted because of political and social constructs, proving and re-proving things that were already self-evident, debunking subjectivity and myth. You get to the end of this costly process, and the nutters still won't believe, because their beliefs are based in fantasy and conspiracy. No matter what evidence gets provided they will just "invent a fresh fantasy" to negate it!

While I'm happy to see yet another validation of the real science, I'm not happy that people keep putting their hand up for grants to study this over and over again. It in effect steals money from the sort of research that really needs to be done.

Is this waste the true cost of deregulated social media?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on March 29, 2023, 09:13:41 am
The ivermectin boosters weren't worth listening to because they had a foot in two camps and couldn't figure out if COVID was a legitimate threat, and whether or not medication was required, but if it was required, then Ivermectin would solve it and not the vaccine, which is completely hypocritical and sounds more like "I'll do anything but take a vaccine".

A very stupid way to address the pandemic with concerns that are somewhat valid to begin with and make genuine critics sound crazy by association which is the only reason they got attention to start with because it helps make people sheep.  After the whole vaccination stand that was taken, there was no way to say "oops, we got that and a few other things wrong", so the same line will be towed until someone is brave enough to come forward and tell us with certainty about the true lessons learned.

For mine, COVID is nothing too concerning and managed easily enough by Panadol or Paracetemol.  I wouldn't be indulging in fanciful fixes like Ivermectin even if they worked.

Whether or not the vaccine works as advertised is another story.  It may be a prophylactic for getting COVID as far as we can tell or it might do nothing but provide people some confidence.  Using my own case study, despite living normally I dodged COVID until 12 months after my 3rd vaccination which lends weight to it offering some level of protection, but a problem there is knowing whether or not I got near a positive case.  I have no way to know this with any confidence because I associated with too few people even though I was out in public to know if someone actually caught COVID around me and was a close contact extremely infrequently.  If you are worried about it, or compromised, get vaccinated, but there is no need to force the masses who are like me to get vaccinated. 

So draw your own conclusion from the above.  I'm going to let my immune system fight it with assistance from Panadol rather than go the vaccine route from now on, because that suits me fine and even at my worst covid symptoms, I didnt really need medical assistance, just some good old fashioned bed rest and couch time to recover with Panadol keeping the fever down.

Not sure why rest, hydration and downtime aren't the immediate go to fixes for illness these days.  Perhaps it has something to do with the bulk billing model where doctors only get paid on a visit, and that means bring your patients back daily to give them a certificate rather than giving them a chunk of time off to rest.  Happened to me a few years back.  Copped Gastro on Saturday, hadn't held food down and went to the GP on monday.  Gave me a certificate for one day.  Went back the next day still not having eaten food and got another one day cert when all I could do was keep my fluids up.  The next day went to another GP, who upon hearing that I hadnt eaten for almost 5 days and was still not keeping any food down, gave me the rest of the week off, told me to keep hydrated and rest.  Why do I need 3 visits to a GP to get 5 days off work when I was incapable of digesting food properly and was effectively peeing out of my A-Hole? 

The answer is that some doctors were too busy maximising their medicare returns.  A poor practise, and if you live in the Northern Suburbs, I know he practises out of two medical clinics, and one of them is close to Campbellfield, and the other is near Greensborough and Ill give you his name if you PM me.  More just to keep him honest if you visit him.  I have since stopped seeing him and have switched to a non bulk billing medical centre, because if I am paying for it, at very least the duty of care is not to fleece me.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on March 29, 2023, 09:54:03 am
The guy next door to my daughter lived with his Mum who has just turned 100.
Amazing woman, eastern European immigrant who lived through the horrors of the war but pretty independent and healthy. She still gets out in the garden.
Her son was in his early seventies
He caught Covid two Sundays ago.
He's dead!.
She hasn't caught it.

It's very selective.
For some it may be no more than a cold.
For others it's the end.
I get my fifth shot next Tuesday.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 29, 2023, 11:00:52 am
Mrs DJC and I are booked in for our 5th COVID vaccination.  The person taking our details asked when we last had COVID and was quite surprised when we said never.

I suppose that we could have been infected and asymptomatic but I think the chances of that are pretty slim.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 29, 2023, 11:06:34 am
Mrs DJC and I are booked in for our 5th COVID vaccination.  The person taking our details asked when we last had COVID and was quite surprised when we said never.

I suppose that we could have been infected and asymptomatic but I think the chances of that are pretty slim.

Yours truly also booked in for another booster yesterday. I was also asked about having Covid recently and my response was similar to yours. I asked the Doc what difference it would make if I'd had Covid recently to having another jab... his response was that after infection there is a natural immunity for a short while due to our own immune system, and that a jab would be a waste as a result.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on March 29, 2023, 11:08:26 am
It’s a mistake to generalise our own experiences to represent everybody else’s experiences. Just because Covid didn’t affect you greatly doesn’t mean it didn’t affect anyone else greatly (especially when the number of deaths was so high). The next pandemic might not be so kind to you while others get off scott free.

This is the big difference between sexual and asexual reproduction. Parthenogenesis ensures that the whole population has the same exposure to disease and can lead to a mass die-off. But sexual reproduction leads to variations in the genes that can help some of the population avoid illness. I linked an article that one such variation helped some people survive the Black Death and the same variation may have helped people avoid Covid. On the other hand, it predisposed those people to diabetes.

It’s also a bit rash to assume away the benefits of vaccination. Maybe the vaccine ensured that Covid didn’t have much affect on you when you caught it.

Finally, dwelling on the possibility that you could have blown off the vaccine and other preventative measures given that Covid ultimately had little impact on you is pointless. How could you know this ahead of time? The early advice was that age and certain co-morbidities increased one’s exposure and this was reflected in the vaccination release dates. But as with insurance, is it a wasted expense just because the risk you’re insuring against didn’t occur? Quite a few years back, there was some research that suggested that cannabis generally didn’t cause schizophrenia but in a small number of cases a genetic predisposition to schizophrenia could be activated by heavy cannabis use. The problem at least at that time was that there wasn’t a test available to determine whether a particular person was at risk. Therefore a heavy cannabis smoker who didn’t suffer from schizophrenia would be able to say there was no connection while a heavy cannabis smoker who developed schizophrenia would be able to say the link was clear.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 29, 2023, 11:14:22 am
The debate will continue to rage simply because there are those who want to profit from misdirection, a good example is the current debate about vaccine harm and death rates.

But those debating the issue always omit a simple but very critical aspect of the global situation, no vaccine, as for that matter nothing at all, that you put into your body goes in without some risk. Whether it's water or a venom, everything has potential to either impact somebody or have no obvious effect at all! This is the simple situation when the scale of the event is large enough.

I think the bigger crime is that those debates divert attention from the real crime, which has been the inaction of authorities to prepare for this inevitable pandemic event, and on economic grounds they are already shutting down efforts to prepare for the next one.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 29, 2023, 11:17:16 am
Finally, dwelling on the possibility that you could have blown off the vaccine and other preventative measures given that Covid ultimately had little impact on you is pointless. How could you know this ahead of time? The early advice was that age and certain co-morbidities increased one’s exposure and this was reflected in the vaccination release dates. But as with insurance, is it a wasted expense just because the risk you’re insuring against didn’t occur? Quite a few years back, there was some research that suggested that cannabis generally didn’t cause schizophrenia but in a small number of cases a genetic predisposition to schizophrenia could be activated by heavy cannabis use. The problem at least at that time was that there wasn’t a test available to determine whether a particular person was at risk. Therefore a heavy cannabis smoker who didn’t suffer from schizophrenia would be able to say there was no connection while a heavy cannabis smoker who developed schizophrenia would be able to say the link was clear.
Humans are horrendous at identifying and assessing risk, which seems to be an evolutionary trait of most numerous species in that there is no need to preserve individuals, so why waste the resource on developing an acute sense of risk?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on March 29, 2023, 11:26:40 am
It’s a mistake to generalise our own experiences to represent everybody else’s experiences. Just because Covid didn’t affect you greatly doesn’t mean it didn’t affect anyone else greatly (especially when the number of deaths was so high). The next pandemic might not be so kind to you while others get off scott free.

It’s also a bit rash to assume away the benefits of vaccination. Maybe the vaccine ensured that Covid didn’t have much affect on you when you caught it.

Completely agree, Wingman MAV. Personally, I have very little doubt that the vaccines/boosters I've had have contributed in no small way to me being symptom free for quite some time, and quite possibly asymptomatic when infected. Next booster booked.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 29, 2023, 05:33:52 pm
The ivermectin boosters weren't worth listening to because they had a foot in two camps and couldn't figure out if COVID was a legitimate threat, and whether or not medication was required, but if it was required, then Ivermectin would solve it and not the vaccine, which is completely hypocritical and sounds more like "I'll do anything but take a vaccine".

A very stupid way to address the pandemic with concerns that are somewhat valid to begin with and make genuine critics sound crazy by association which is the only reason they got attention to start with because it helps make people sheep.  After the whole vaccination stand that was taken, there was no way to say "oops, we got that and a few other things wrong", so the same line will be towed until someone is brave enough to come forward and tell us with certainty about the true lessons learned.

For mine, COVID is nothing too concerning and managed easily enough by Panadol or Paracetemol.  I wouldn't be indulging in fanciful fixes like Ivermectin even if they worked.

Whether or not the vaccine works as advertised is another story.  It may be a prophylactic for getting COVID as far as we can tell or it might do nothing but provide people some confidence.  Using my own case study, despite living normally I dodged COVID until 12 months after my 3rd vaccination which lends weight to it offering some level of protection, but a problem there is knowing whether or not I got near a positive case.  I have no way to know this with any confidence because I associated with too few people even though I was out in public to know if someone actually caught COVID around me and was a close contact extremely infrequently.  If you are worried about it, or compromised, get vaccinated, but there is no need to force the masses who are like me to get vaccinated. 

So draw your own conclusion from the above.  I'm going to let my immune system fight it with assistance from Panadol rather than go the vaccine route from now on, because that suits me fine and even at my worst covid symptoms, I didnt really need medical assistance, just some good old fashioned bed rest and couch time to recover with Panadol keeping the fever down.

Not sure why rest, hydration and downtime aren't the immediate go to fixes for illness these days.  Perhaps it has something to do with the bulk billing model where doctors only get paid on a visit, and that means bring your patients back daily to give them a certificate rather than giving them a chunk of time off to rest.  Happened to me a few years back.  Copped Gastro on Saturday, hadn't held food down and went to the GP on monday.  Gave me a certificate for one day.  Went back the next day still not having eaten food and got another one day cert when all I could do was keep my fluids up.  The next day went to another GP, who upon hearing that I hadnt eaten for almost 5 days and was still not keeping any food down, gave me the rest of the week off, told me to keep hydrated and rest.  Why do I need 3 visits to a GP to get 5 days off work when I was incapable of digesting food properly and was effectively peeing out of my A-Hole? 

The answer is that some doctors were too busy maximising their medicare returns.  A poor practise, and if you live in the Northern Suburbs, I know he practises out of two medical clinics, and one of them is close to Campbellfield, and the other is near Greensborough and Ill give you his name if you PM me.  More just to keep him honest if you visit him.  I have since stopped seeing him and have switched to a non bulk billing medical centre, because if I am paying for it, at very least the duty of care is not to fleece me.

Pro Tip...if The Doctor you see doesnt part or fully own the clinic you are going to then dont bother, bulk billing clinics where you dont see the same doctor twice are to be avoided if you can. Same with outpatient clinics at Public Hospitals, choose a Private specialist not the outpatients clinic at your local public hospital if you have the means and choice.
Re: CoVid Vaccines......not a fan after my heart issues and more research is required, Did hear there is a Norwegian study just finished that provides some interesting results but I guess every side of the story has a research paper to back up its claims so the truth will probably sit in the middle somewhere but never come to light publicly .
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on March 29, 2023, 06:40:25 pm
After having my 4th shot I had very nasty dose of Covid last July, that laid me very low for 3 weeks. Not good at all. Yet to have the 5th. Not sure which way to go at this stage.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on April 04, 2023, 07:27:27 pm
I got my 5th shot today; the Pfizer bivalent booster.  My shoulder’s a little sore but I’m as normal as I can be.

The jabs were administered in a part of the clinic I hadn’t really been to before and it was decorated with footy photographs.  Very prominent were the Juddster, Jezza’s mark and our photoshopped team of the century team photograph.  The latter is a little weird but quite well done. 

All in all, a worthwhile trip to the doctor’s 🙂
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 19, 2023, 05:14:00 pm
This is how unscrupulous and morally bankrupt News Ltd is,

Today they published the following headline, they know the vast bulk of readers only ever read the headline, but after reading see the opening lines below;
Vaccinated Aussie Dies after Bali Trip
(https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4922.0;attach=1340;image)

Quote
A 23-year-old woman from the Gold Coast, who had just returned from a trip to Bali with mates, went from feeling fine to dying within 24 hours, her devastated parents have said.

Bella Fidler thought she might have caught Covid-19, but by the time it was discovered she had a deadly strain of meningitis, it was tragically too late to save her.

Now Ms Fidler’s parents are calling for a vaccine for the deadly meningococcal B strain of meningitis to be made more widely available..........................
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 19, 2023, 09:27:15 pm
Cos everyone has been so honest about vaccines haven't they?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11935971/AstraZeneca-Covid-vaccine-no-longer-available-Australians-Coronavirus-jab-discontinued.html
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on April 19, 2023, 10:38:50 pm
My (other) son has finally tested positive.
Myself, wife and first kid are still negative despite all feeling sick at the same time.
Officially, I still haven't had it, my wife either.
Little fella (6yo) is doing fine.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on April 19, 2023, 11:38:52 pm
Cos everyone has been so honest about vaccines haven't they?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11935971/AstraZeneca-Covid-vaccine-no-longer-available-Australians-Coronavirus-jab-discontinued.html

Yes, as my former colleague Prof Bennett points out, AstraZeneca has been superseded.

Why would anyone be vaccinated with AZ when the modern bivalent vaccines are readily available?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on April 20, 2023, 12:11:34 am
Cos everyone has been so honest about vaccines haven't they?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11935971/AstraZeneca-Covid-vaccine-no-longer-available-Australians-Coronavirus-jab-discontinued.html

Not really a surprise. After all how can any vaccine with such limited testing not carry a significant risk. Our governments pushing these vaccines on children was criminal imo and parents that obliged should be ashamed of themself.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on April 20, 2023, 12:16:04 am
Yes, as my former colleague Prof Bennett points out, AstraZeneca has been superseded.

Why would anyone be vaccinated with AZ when the modern bivalent vaccines are readily available?

Ok to say that now but at some of the early stages of the roll out AZ was all that was available and the governments and of course the ‘experts’ on this site where very quick to claim all vaccines available were safe. 

Is this the only covid vaccine that we change our opinion on when possible negative side effects come out ?

Doubt it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 20, 2023, 01:31:23 am
Yes, as my former colleague Prof Bennett points out, AstraZeneca has been superseded.

Why would anyone be vaccinated with AZ when the modern bivalent vaccines are readily available?
There are vehicle components in every vaccines some people are allergic to, that is why you need alternatives with a different vehicle.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 20, 2023, 01:36:42 am
Is this the only covid vaccine that we change our opinion on when possible negative side effects come out ?
If you stick a dry needle in a billion people some will have adverse reactions, some will die, most will be fine.

Adverse reactions to vaccines are normal, it is why they observe you for a few minutes after any shoot, not just Sars-CoV-2 vaccines.

I don't know the count now but the figures are immense, if we scaled any vaccination scheme to the level as the COVID vaccines we find the same or worse.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 20, 2023, 01:42:36 am
Cos everyone has been so honest about vaccines haven't they?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11935971/AstraZeneca-Covid-vaccine-no-longer-available-Australians-Coronavirus-jab-discontinued.html
So you think News Ltd is OK, ,...... that is a bizarre perspective to take!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on April 20, 2023, 07:22:10 am
Cos everyone has been so honest about vaccines haven't they?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11935971/AstraZeneca-Covid-vaccine-no-longer-available-Australians-Coronavirus-jab-discontinued.html

The message around vaccination has changed a bit from the initial  "Get vaccinated to protect us all" to "Get vaccinated to protect yourself."
It's become a very individual and personal decision.
I had my fifth shot about three weeks ago.
I probaby had more of a reaction to my flu shot about a week ago than to any of my covid shots.

I had AZ for the first vaccination and Pfizer for the subsequent ones
I think in making the decision to be vaccinated or not we look for a bit of information.
Sometimes, as with most things, our bias 'for or against' leads us to give a bit more credence to information that supports our beliefs.
On a quick read of the Mail article you could easily  get the message that AZ is suddenly causing blood clots and has had to be withdrawn.
A more in depth read reveals nothing quite so dramatic....in fact it's old news.
The blood clot issue has been around since the vaccine rollout began.
When I was looking for fifth vax options it seemed that Moderna and Pfizer both seemed to have specific vaccines for the latest Omicron variants, so the AZ had been superseded.

It is a personal  issue and the virus can vary greatly in it's effects on individuals.
If even the 'experts' aren't 'experts' (and thoughts and practices have changed greatly since the initial days of the virus) it's probably  best left to the individual to decide what's the best course of action for themselves.
Having had Covid, and with a few health issues I feel pretty comfortable with my level of protection.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 20, 2023, 07:30:43 am
I had AZ for the first vaccination and Pfizer for the subsequent ones.
The early science suggested cross vaccination was the best strategy and that has been now shown to be true, I was advised by my GP to go with cross vaccination, then if you are lucky you maybe got the new Omicron option as the last booster and this should deliver the longest resistance possible.

Politics plays a big part of all this, while AZ was made available at low cost forever to the 3rd world, the 3rd world cannot make it, but they have formed a cooperative to make the mRNA versions.

If you were to be technically brutalist the safety numbers are no better or worse for either vaccine option, and actually these vaccines are as statistically safe as any vaccine in history.

Regardless, the News Ltd article wants to build on vaccine hysteria by exploiting the death of a woman from Meningococcal, they are so disingenuous about it they actually change the headline on the page that the link opens, in my opinion they should be prosecuted for deliberately misleading the public.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on April 20, 2023, 08:56:09 am
If you stick a dry needle in a billion people some will have adverse reactions, some will die, most will be fine.

Adverse reactions to vaccines are normal, it is why they observe you for a few minutes after any shoot, not just Sars-CoV-2 vaccines.

I don't know the count now but the figures are immense, if we scaled any vaccination scheme to the level as the COVID vaccines we find the same or worse.

LP, stop spinning things mate.  

You can't just admit they got this particular vaccine wrong and that's why its now banned. 

You're downplaying it saying 'Adverse reactions to vaccines are normal'

You're better than that LP.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on April 20, 2023, 09:20:45 am
LP, stop spinning things mate.  

You can't just admit they got this particular vaccine wrong and that's why its now banned. 

You're downplaying it saying 'Adverse reactions to vaccines are normal'

You're better than that LP.

The AZ vaccine isn't banned.  It's no longer manufactured because it has been superseded by vaccines that are more effective against the recent COVID strains.

TTS was a known, very rare side effect of AZ that affected up to three people per 100,000 vaccines.  It can be treated easily and effectively.

The Measles/Mumps/Rubella vaccine can cause seizures, unusual bleeding or bruising and can be life-threatening for people with immune system problems.  Idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura develops in one of every 24,000 children vaccinated.

But don't let the science get in the way of a good conspiracy theory  :)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on April 20, 2023, 09:29:21 am
The AZ vaccine isn't banned.  It's no longer manufactured because it has been superseded by vaccines that are more effective against the recent COVID strains.

TTS was a known, very rare side effect of AZ that affected up to three people per 100,000 vaccines.  It can be treated easily and effectively.

The Measles/Mumps/Rubella vaccine can cause seizures, unusual bleeding or bruising and can be life-threatening for people with immune system problems.  Idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura develops in one of every 24,000 children vaccinated.

But don't let the science get in the way of a good conspiracy theory  :)

No conspiracy theory mate. So typical that when it’s proven now you turn to playing with words. Spin it any way you want - It’s no longer produced for a reason!

But you keep your head down now and keep following the science…..🤨
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on April 20, 2023, 09:52:58 am
No conspiracy theory mate. So typical that when it’s proven now you turn to playing with words. Spin it any way you want - It’s no longer produced for a reason!

But you keep your head down now and keep following the science…..🤨

What has been proven Shawny, that one vaccine has been superseded by newer vaccines?  That's hardly earthshattering!

The Moderna Spikevax vaccine is no longer in production.  What's the real reason for that; surely it can't just be that Moderna is now producing a bivalent vaccine?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 20, 2023, 03:26:08 pm
LP, stop spinning things mate.
Unfortunately most of the anti-vaccination sentiment is based purely on figures built from voluntary reporting like the Yellow Card system or the various US or European equivalents, as far as I can tell in the US there is at least one system for every political party, and those figures are as reliable as asking Dangerflog for opinion on a Carlton tribunal infringement.

Statistics bring the vaccine panic merchants undone, for example if you drove to get your vaccine shot you are nearly 1000x more likely to be injured from the drive than the vaccine, keep on trucking. But of course we can always claim a global conspiracy to hide deaths, rounds things off nicely! ;D

As for the official figures (rounded off noicely by moi) to August 2022 from the TGA, not from Weird Al or News Ltd.
64M Doses
136K Adverse Effects( 80K Comirnaty(Pfizer) , 40K Vaxzevera(Az), 8K Spikevax(Moderna) )
Potential Links to deaths 13 (Identified from approximately 900 claims!)

So we can equate that means 1:100 claims of death have a potential link, or 99:100 claims of death have no link at all.

My understanding of those potential 13 deaths, it highly likely that 2 are certified as related to a vaccine, which is about the global average for vaccines et. al..!

We kill people with vehicles (Mostly cars) at the rate of 4.5 people for every 100,000 trips, that equates to nearly 3000 deaths per 64 Million trips!

( Actually, the simple extrapolation is only approximate, an actuary can advise you the real figure is much worse when trip length is taken into account. The incident rate is a curve it is not linear, and what is a trip? My friend who is an actuary will advise road users are more likely to die on a short trip close to home or on a regular route where you are less safe than going to a never before visited venue. But this definition varies because a short trip close to home or a regular route is different from someone living in Carlton versus Wave Rock. They think it is related to driver complacency and familiarity perhaps causing drivers to over estimate ability or not observing / anticipating local road changes. For him that Youi ad that claims reduced insurance for short trips is offensive! )

It seems a "short regular road trip" is like walking down a staircase while talking!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on April 20, 2023, 06:38:12 pm
Unfortunately most of the anti-vaccination sentiment is based purely on figures built from voluntary reporting like the Yellow Card system or the various US or European equivalents, as far as I can tell in the US there is at least one system for every political party, and those figures are as reliable as asking Dangerflog for opinion on a Carlton tribunal infringement.

Statistics bring the vaccine panic merchants undone, for example if you drove to get your vaccine shot you are nearly 1000x more likely to be injured from the drive than the vaccine, keep on trucking. But of course we can always claim a global conspiracy to hide deaths, rounds things off nicely! ;D

As for the official figures (rounded off noicely by moi) to August 2022 from the TGA, not from Weird Al or News Ltd.
64M Doses
136K Adverse Effects( 80K Comirnaty(Pfizer) , 40K Vaxzevera(Az), 8K Spikevax(Moderna) )
Potential Links to deaths 13 (Identified from approximately 900 claims!)

So we can equate that means 1:100 claims of death have a potential link, or 99:100 claims of death have no link at all.

My understanding of those potential 13 deaths, it highly likely that 2 are certified as related to a vaccine, which is about the global average for vaccines et. al..!

We kill people with vehicles (Mostly cars) at the rate of 4.5 people for every 100,000 trips, that equates to nearly 3000 deaths per 64 Million trips!

( Actually, the simple extrapolation is only approximate, an actuary can advise you the real figure is much worse when trip length is taken into account. The incident rate is a curve it is not linear, and what is a trip? My friend who is an actuary will advise road users are more likely to die on a short trip close to home or on a regular route where you are less safe than going to a never before visited venue. But this definition varies because a short trip close to home or a regular route is different from someone living in Carlton versus Wave Rock. They think it is related to driver complacency and familiarity perhaps causing drivers to over estimate ability or not observing / anticipating local road changes. For him that Youi ad that claims reduced insurance for short trips is offensive! )

It seems a "short regular road trip" is like walking down a staircase while talking!
LP, because you seem to quickly be able to find reliable sources to stat 'facts' relating to the vaccine roll out would you also be as willing to use the same reliable sources to advise what our Covid mortality rate was once contracting Covid in the groups below.

Over 70s
60-70
50-69
40-49
30-39
Under 30s
Children

Please don't add any spin just tell me the figures please that's all im interested in.

 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 21, 2023, 11:32:56 am
LP, because you seem to quickly be able to find reliable sources to stat 'facts' relating to the vaccine roll out would you also be as willing to use the same reliable sources to advise what our Covid mortality rate was once contracting Covid in the groups below.

Over 70s
60-70
50-69
40-49
30-39
Under 30s
Children

Please don't add any spin just tell me the figures please that's all im interested in.
There is no spin in my posts, you only assert that because you either disagree or do not believe the science, I can't help you with that.

The best apolitical source for your request is the ABS, it's not controlled by any political party or State and just works as a bureaucracy to collect the data. The screen grab of the data as linked from Oct 2022 is below.

The only qualification I would put on it is that some in the RACGP question the usefulness because in Australia there is no Federal standard, the States have different rules and regulations about the the way records are created and maintained. Some in the RACGP claim certain locations under-report, some have different definitions of "death from COVID" versus "death with COVID", etc., etc., the under-reporting allegation seems mostly motivated by economic reasons, in much the same way it has been shown that India's "extraordinary COVID success" turned out to be completely bogus, India's commercial media is 100% run and controlled by the Indian Government, it didn't even report lockdowns that we now know were even harder than those we had here!

https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/covid-19-mortality-australia-deaths-registered-until-31-october-2022

Keep in mind, the figures since Oct 2022 might be equally alarming, it looks like some demographics are being smashed by the new variant now that lockdowns are over. The media and politicians might have moved on, but the virus didn't!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on April 21, 2023, 04:59:31 pm
There is no spin in my posts, you only assert that because you either disagree or do not believe the science, I can't help you with that.

The best apolitical source for your request is the ABS, it's not controlled by any political party or State and just works as a bureaucracy to collect the data. The screen grab of the data as linked from Oct 2022 is below.

The only qualification I would put on it is that some in the RACGP question the usefulness because in Australia there is no Federal standard, the States have different rules and regulations about the the way records are created and maintained. Some in the RACGP claim certain locations under-report, some have different definitions of "death from COVID" versus "death with COVID", etc., etc., the under-reporting allegation seems mostly motivated by economic reasons, in much the same way it has been shown that India's "extraordinary COVID success" turned out to be completely bogus, India's commercial media is 100% run and controlled by the Indian Government, it didn't even report lockdowns that we now know were even harder than those we had here!

https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/covid-19-mortality-australia-deaths-registered-until-31-october-2022

Keep in mind, the figures since Oct 2022 might be equally alarming, it looks like some demographics are being smashed by the new variant now that lockdowns are over. The media and politicians might have moved on, but the virus didn't!


Ok so from when the virus started to Oct 22 there has been a total of 10620 Australian deaths in a population of circa 25-26Mil

Therefore 1 out of every 2400 man women and child died from covid which includes the elderly and those with pre existing health issues.

If your under 30 its one in 370,000 - I WILL REPEAT THIS 1 DEATH IN EVERY 370,000 or

They tell us to trust the science i prefer to trust the statistics and those very statistics make me like many others suspicious about the handling of this pandemic.  What were the deaths from mental health conditions during that same period in under 30s?

I respect your opinions LP and obviously on this one we see things differently. I'm not denying Covid exists and agree as the stats back it up that in the elderly age group and those with pre existing conditions it can be a serious issue but I can also see the other side and why there is so much doubt in the community as those not in those age groups the virus is generally not much more then the flu.

Closing playgrounds, closing schools, forcing majority of the workforce to be vaccinated or lose their job, yet judges were exempt, 10Km radius, not allowed to go for a walk in a park or on the footpath, cant go fishing in a bay or ocean or play golf

I don't believe in conspiracy theories or wear a foil hat like all those with a opposing opinion on this are branded but i also don't blindly follow the governments 'follow the science' line either as the stats don't support their reaction to it.

There was a lot more to this then the average punter will ever know IMO    
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 21, 2023, 05:16:53 pm
If your under 30 its one in 370,000 - I WILL REPEAT THIS 1 DEATH IN EVERY 370,000 or

They tell us to trust the science i prefer to trust the statistics and those very statistics make me like many others suspicious about the handling of this pandemic.
Sorry @shawny I don't mean to embarrass you but your problem is math not science or statistics.

There are not 26M Under 30s in Australia, the ratio isn't 68 out of 25,000,000 or 26,000,000 (I presume that is where you get the 1:370,000)

The median age is about 37 years, the under 30s are about 35% of the population, the ratio is approximately 1 in every 140,000 people.

Sounds low, but that in common analogy, to accept your freedom we must accept the death of one under 30 every second MCG game, which young family member will you pick, Elwood's daughter, maybe one of MBB's little ones?

But deaths aren't just the issue is it? The long COVID numbers are soaring not shrinking, paralysis, strokes, heart attacks, lung disease, are all effects of a COVID infection, and that is not counting the number of coincident mortalities.

You have been sucked in by the "Do your own research" mantra, but it just ends up shooting you in the foot, because you can't do your own research, you don't have a lab, you don't have a supercomputer, and the Norbits on Youtube, Instagram or Twitter who spread disinformation and distrust are really prime candidates for a Dunning-Kruger award not a Nobel Prize.

And as for conspiracy, the ABS employees about 14,000 people, they are obviously all in on it! :o

Rob Skiba says hello!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on April 21, 2023, 05:33:43 pm
The strategy of being more rather than less cautious, the strategy of trying to protect everyone, with an emphasis on those most vulnerable, even if it meant that the relatively healthy among us had to be inconvenienced (perhaps even highly inconvenienced) is completely bang on IMO. Covid wasn't a known quantity. It's hard to plan for a shifting and initially unknown target and keep everyone happy.

Of course, like most, I never enjoyed lockdowns, working from home, travel restrictions, schooling from home etc., but it was the right approach IMO.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on April 21, 2023, 07:56:42 pm
The median age is about 37 years, the under 30s are about 35% of the population, the ratio is approximately 1 in every 140,000 people.

Sounds low, but that in common analogy, to accept your freedom we must accept the death of one under 30 every second MCG game, which young family member will you pick, Elwood's daughter, maybe one of MBB's little ones?

Thanks for correcting my math error however it doesn’t change my point. Covid in that age group is very very rare and the closing of playgrounds schools etc were not remotely in line with the risk on that age demographic. Spin it any way you want that’s a fact!

Your point on what if someone I know is that 1 reminds me of a politician who is backed into a corner and can’t make any sensible points any longer and comes up with a personal point to get the emotional response. Fact is 1 out of 140000 is just about as rare as you can get from a health concern but if you are happy in that age group to adjust your life your freedom be pushed into a untried vaccine you probably want to never go near a road never ever get in a car never drink a beer no junk food and maybe best you wear a bubble and screw your door closed and never leave home. If 1 out of 140000 illness concerns you there are hundreds of illnesses accidents etc with much much higher odds potentially waiting to be your grim reaper.

But I know I know ‘listen to the science’ 🤡🤡🤡

That’s it for me on the matter - I’m off to have a scotch and some potato chips 😷😷
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on April 21, 2023, 09:11:24 pm
Before you do, you should check the risk factor of that alcohol and chips, it won’t be pretty…
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: cookie2 on April 21, 2023, 09:29:12 pm
It's Friday so I walk on the wild side. Sausage roll for lunch, a pie for tea whilst watching the footy, washed down with an Asahi, two glasses of wine and probably two generous "Singleton" scotches before turning in for a well earned rest. Mmm ummm! I love living on the edge 😎🤪😷
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 21, 2023, 09:33:02 pm
Thanks for correcting my math error however it doesn’t change my point. Covid in that age group is very very rare and the closing of playgrounds schools etc were not remotely in line with the risk on that age demographic. Spin it any way you want that’s a fact!
COVID being rare in that demographic isn't a fact it's a fantasy, you have confused mortality rates and virulence.

The people caring long term for their COVID affected children, children who were otherwise healthy prior to the virus, won't share your perspective, they might even find it slightly abhorrent!

PS: So happy to hear you want higher rates of Under 30s dying before you bother to act!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on April 21, 2023, 10:15:28 pm
COVID being rare in that demographic isn't a fact it's a fantasy, you have confused mortality rates and virulence.

The people caring long term for their COVID affected children, children who were otherwise healthy prior to the virus, won't share your perspective, they might even find it slightly abhorrent!

PS: So happy to hear you want higher rates of Under 30s dying before you bother to act!

🤡🤡🤡
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on April 21, 2023, 10:19:22 pm
🤡🤡🤡

The Black Plague obviously didn’t kill my ancestors so it was media hype too I guess… 🙄
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 21, 2023, 11:05:01 pm
The strategy of being more rather than less cautious, the strategy of trying to protect everyone, with an emphasis on those most vulnerable, even if it meant that the relatively healthy among us had to be inconvenienced (perhaps even highly inconvenienced) is completely bang on IMO. Covid wasn't a known quantity. It's hard to plan for a shifting and initially unknown target and keep everyone happy.

Of course, like most, I never enjoyed lockdowns, working from home, travel restrictions, schooling from home etc., but it was the right approach IMO.

I was fine with it, until I saw how the mandates were applied to people.

It was very much get vaccinated or else.

They lost me and many others in some circumstances that you just had to witness to believe.  Imagine staring at a 20 year nurse 6 months pregnant offering to start maternity leave early and only return to work fully vaccinated and instead tear up her employment contract.

Needless to say, she won't be back.  Nurse educator in cardiology and ICU lost to the system for a vaccine that provides very limited personal protection vs a high risk pregnancy given her age.  I know which I'd choose, because sometimes you have to play the percentages.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on April 22, 2023, 06:56:41 am
I was fine with it, until I saw how the mandates were applied to people.

It was very much get vaccinated or else.

They lost me and many others in some circumstances that you just had to witness to believe.  Imagine staring at a 20 year nurse 6 months pregnant offering to start maternity leave early and only return to work fully vaccinated and instead tear up her employment contract.

Needless to say, she won't be back.  Nurse educator in cardiology and ICU lost to the system for a vaccine that provides very limited personal protection vs a high risk pregnancy given her age.  I know which I'd choose, because sometimes you have to play the percentages.

No doubt one man's circumspect, cautious approach is another man's hysterical overreaction. I get that. You will always have fallout, exceptions to the norm and hard luck stories in situations like this. It's unavoidable. If you want to roll the dice, you take whatever fate has in store for you. You can look at Sweden for example, and their more relaxed approach was certainly not without some measure of success - but as always, both God and the Devil reside in the detail :

https://theconversation.com/did-swedens-controversial-covid-strategy-pay-off-in-many-ways-it-did-but-it-let-the-elderly-down-188338

You can look at another country that took a similar approach, the US, and it's a very different story.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on April 22, 2023, 08:09:33 am
No doubt one man's circumspect, cautious approach is another man's hysterical overreaction. I get that. You will always have fallout, exceptions to the norm and hard luck stories in situations like this. It's unavoidable. If you want to roll the dice, you take whatever fate has in store for you. You can look at Sweden for example, and their more relaxed approach was certainly not without some measure of success - but as always, both God and the Devil reside in the detail :

https://theconversation.com/did-swedens-controversial-covid-strategy-pay-off-in-many-ways-it-did-but-it-let-the-elderly-down-188338

You can look at another country that took a similar approach, the US, and it's a very different story.




For some strange reason this conversation gets invariably extrapolated to an extreme I.e. showing data from Sweden who chose not to lock down.

Why?

Complaining about the vaccine mandate and how it was applied to the public vs lockdowns are two different scenarios.

Put the vaccines into people choosing to have it and let the others go without then show me the figures.  Thing is I don't think this data can be collected.

We just told them that they should get vaccinated or they can lose their livelihood.  This nurse still hasn't been vaccinated but now she's fine to work anyway because no one cares if you have or have been vaccinated anymore, because the vaccine only offers personal protection and now common sense has finally prevailed. 



Anecdotally, statistics should have seen rising deaths recently as vaccine immunity wanes and people don't get their boosters.  You can bet the farm that hasn't happened else it would have been screamed about from the rooftops so it looks like that was bullcrap too.

The irony is that the economic impact of this is actually causing more issues than the pandemic did now as people are unable to seek health care because its no longer affordable which is going to cause more death and health care pressure because waiting 6 hours in an ED is cheaper than paying to see a GP.

For the last 10 years they've been encouraging people not to waste time lining up in emergency rooms and get a referral from a GP.  Thats not happening now. 

I'd love to see the change in statistics on that.



Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on April 22, 2023, 08:15:51 am
I recall that when we all (warning: another tired Navy story!) lined up for a barrage of inoculations at recruit school (HMAS Cerberus) there was an expectation that a small number of blokes would react badly, some even hospitalised, and would subsequently not be able to join. We received yellow fever, TB, smallpox and another I forget all in one go. Apparently a few young blokes per year would end up in a critical condition or worse.

The point of this missive is that there was one inoculation (vaccination) where every one had a test for tolerance... a tiny injection under the skin of the forearm (underside) to test reaction (think it was smallpox, maybe TB). If a small watery blister came up in a few days you would good to go for the major injection. If not, you were discharged as the major injection would be very problematic. I wonder if a tiny, test dose could be used for Covid variants and other future nasty viruses to ascertain some level of suitability?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 22, 2023, 10:38:50 am
I recall that when we all (warning: another tired Navy story!) lined up for a barrage of inoculations at recruit school (HMAS Cerberus) there was an expectation that a small number of blokes would react badly, some even hospitalised, and would subsequently not be able to join. We received yellow fever, TB, smallpox and another I forget all in one go. Apparently a few young blokes per year would end up in a critical condition or worse.

The point of this missive is that there was one inoculation (vaccination) where every one had a test for tolerance... a tiny injection under the skin of the forearm (underside) to test reaction (think it was smallpox, maybe TB). If a small watery blister came up in a few days you would good to go for the major injection. If not, you were discharged as the major injection would be very problematic. I wonder if a tiny, test dose could be used for Covid variants and other future nasty viruses to ascertain some level of suitability?
TB...we had them at primary school, the blister/lump meant you got the big needle and a round scar down the track.
A couple of kids in our class didn't get the blister...we had our school milk in the morning as usual and a few kids managed to puke that up after getting the needle.
And as usual the school milk had been left outside in the sun and was in no condition to drink but we all had to finish our little bottles...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 22, 2023, 10:42:07 am

Complaining about the vaccine mandate and how it was applied to the public vs lockdowns are two different scenarios.
Not really, because it's the same people using the same flawed logic driven by pseudo-science and fear mongering and simply lies that are the loudest anti-vaccine and anti-lockdown movement.

My friend an engineer just returned from 3 years in India, stuck there arriving just before the pandemic hit, while the Western media lead by News Ltd was lauding India's fantastic result at fighting COVID without restrictions or mass vaccinations, just some alcohol wipes and home made face masks it seems worked, my friend was busy helping to construct state sanctioned mass graves and piling them full of men, women and children who just faded from the records. In the coastal village where he stayed out the pandemic he estimates 1 in 3 low income households basically evaporated, like the starving in Africa invisible to the west. He laughs at the official figures for India's deaths, it stops him crying, he thinks they are at least an order of magnitude out, people who never existed in any survey and will never be counted as missing! But they are someone's son, daughter, mother or father!

Most of us do not rally against freedoms, we rally against ignorance and indifference!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 22, 2023, 10:48:20 am
The point of this missive is that there was one inoculation (vaccination) where every one had a test for tolerance... a tiny injection under the skin of the forearm (underside) to test reaction (think it was smallpox, maybe TB). If a small watery blister came up in a few days you would good to go for the major injection. If not, you were discharged as the major injection would be very problematic. I wonder if a tiny, test dose could be used for Covid variants and other future nasty viruses to ascertain some level of suitability?
The anti-vaccine / anti-lockdown apparatchiks should be complaining about the political indifference to the warnings that science has been broadcasting for 20 years!

If the politicians had taken note and funded the basic research back then lots of the issues would have been known in advance and I dare say many of them resolved or strategies enacted to deal with the adverse reactions rather than having to do this in retrospect, because the scientists know there will always, always be adverse reactions. Even so perhaps they might have halved the potentially vaccine related deaths from 13 to 6, 13 deaths the politicians probably coldly write off as a cost of war!

The irony is not lost on me that the anti-everything / anti-anything groups use the potential vaccine related deaths of 13 here in Australia to argue against action to fight a virus that killed 10,000 and has permanently maimed / injured 100s of thousands, there are at least 10 long term injured for every death. The anti's seem oblivious to their contradiction!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on April 22, 2023, 11:09:03 am
The Black Plague obviously didn’t kill my ancestors so it was media hype too I guess… 🙄

NB did my last few posts deny that Covid exists, did i deny its effect on the aged or elderly in our community?

I will try again, my main point was that the governments restrictions for the those in the middle aged and under bracket were IMO at odds with the risk posed by COVID in that group and those very restrictions caused more harm IMO in sharp increases in mental health conditions, suicide rates closing of businesses and strains on family then the virus (in that age demographic) did.

Is that very point too hard to understand without changing it to suit the narrative? 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on April 22, 2023, 11:24:22 am
TB...we had them at primary school, the blister/lump meant you got the big needle and a round scar down the track.
A couple of kids in our class didn't get the blister...we had our school milk in the morning as usual and a few kids managed to puke that up after getting the needle.
And as usual the school milk had been left outside in the sun and was in no condition to drink but we all had to finish our little bottles...

Holy mackerel, I remember (advanced apologies to younger folk) that crate milk, EB1. Compulsory. I hated it. The cream would coagulate at the top. I'd give mine away, always made me crook. Never drank milk after that and until this day. Get my calcium from other foods.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on April 22, 2023, 11:46:49 am
Holy mackerel, I remember (advanced apologies to younger folk) that crate milk, EB1. Compulsory. I hated it. The cream would coagulate at the top. I'd give mine away, always made me crook. Never drank milk after that and until this day. Get my calcium from other foods.

Yep, I also remember the compulsory milk we had to drink at school. Small glass bottles, orangey foil top. All of us lined up in the playground, the teacher trying to herd cats................ I think the foil was already removed for us, and I'd see flies sitting on the top of the bottles. The mandatory milk thing didn't seem to last long though - maybe a year or two. Ah, fun times...........
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 22, 2023, 11:53:50 am
Yep, I also remember the compulsory milk we had to drink at school. Small glass bottles, orangey foil top. All of us lined up in the playground, the teacher trying to herd cats................ I think the foil was already removed for us, and I'd see flies sitting on the top of the bottles. The mandatory milk thing didn't seem to last long though - maybe a year or two. Ah, fun times...........
The problem with the early microchips is that they were only micro scale, so they could not safely inject them, you had to drink a batch regularly to replace the ones you sh1t out. They couldn't be delivered cold as they would rust, so they had to keep them warm, milk was great medium because you couldn't see through it and it's a bit of lubricant, no scratchy throat!

Once the evil scientists were able to get them down to nano you could get them in a syringe via a vaccination, they would last for years, no more milk required! ;D
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on April 22, 2023, 01:22:01 pm
No doubt there were some terrible outcomes for individuals during the worst of pandemic and lockdowns
Loss of income, isolation, mental health, not being able to be with loved ones when they passed.

I guess the problem with looking at statistics in regard to a set of actions in hindsight is this...
We know the illness and mortality rates with the action taken.
We'll never know the illness and mortality rates if those actions weren't taken.

Re closing schools...while the younger populations weren't prone to serious illness and death they still got infected and could possibly have passed the virus on to others-parents, grandparents etc. so it was another strategy to curb the spread.

The best we can hope for is that there will be some really thorough evaluation of the strategies used and we'll be much better prepared next time.

This was an unprecedented event in just about everyone's life-time.
That mistakes were made, or there was a level of unpreparedness is a no-brainer.
My daughter is a nurse in aged care...
My wife's best friend's mother died in one of the homes in the early days of the pandemic
While I can undertand some class actions on behalf of the families of residents who died (they're looking to find someone accountable for the unexplainable) the aged care sector was overwhelmed by something no-one in positions of responsibility could possibly have anticipated.

Just a bit less serious to finish...
Has anyone else noticed that eggs taste a bit weird after having had covid?
I can't eat them anymore.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 22, 2023, 02:55:00 pm
No doubt there were some terrible outcomes for individuals during the worst of pandemic and lockdowns
Loss of income, isolation, mental health, not being able to be with loved ones when they passed.

I guess the problem with looking at statistics in regard to a set of actions in hindsight is this...
We know the illness and mortality rates with the action taken.
We'll never know the illness and mortality rates if those actions weren't taken.

Re closing schools...while the younger populations weren't prone to serious illness and death they still got infected and could possibly have passed the virus on to others-parents, grandparents etc. so it was another strategy to curb the spread.

The best we can hope for is that there will be some really thorough evaluation of the strategies used and we'll be much better prepared next time.

This was an unprecedented event in just about everyone's life-time.
That mistakes were made, or there was a level of unpreparedness is a no-brainer.
My daughter is a nurse in aged care...
My wife's best friend's mother died in one of the homes in the early days of the pandemic
While I can undertand some class actions on behalf of the families of residents who died (they're looking to find someone accountable for the unexplainable) the aged care sector was overwhelmed by something no-one in positions of responsibility could possibly have anticipated.

Just a bit less serious to finish...
Has anyone else noticed that eggs taste a bit weird after having had covid?
I can't eat them anymore.
My daughter did some part time nursing in the aged care system for the extra dough and was horrified at the treatment of residents and the lack of care provided.
Staff knocking off the pain meds and food, patients left with bed sores that were infected. No wonder CoVid went through aged care homes, the residents wouldn't have a chance unless they were taken to hospital. With visitors banned and no checks being done on the lack of care it was the perfect storm for many deaths and to have the easy out of blaming it on CoVid. The aged care system in Australia is a national disgrace that no politician from either side wants to tackle as they need the private operators to make it work but can't over regulate them so the care is poor.Its not about what care they provide it's about what they can get away with in terms of saving money...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on April 22, 2023, 03:15:49 pm
My daughter did some part time nursing in the aged care system for the extra dough and was horrified at the treatment of residents and the lack of care provided.
Staff knocking off the pain meds and food, patients left with bed sores that were infected. No wonder CoVid went through aged care homes, the residents wouldn't have a chance unless they were taken to hospital. With visitors banned and no checks being done on the lack of care it was the perfect storm for many deaths and to have the easy out of blaming it on CoVid. The aged care system in Australia is a national disgrace that no politician from either side wants to tackle as they need the private operators to make it work but can't over regulate them so the care is poor.Its not about what care they provide it's about what they can get away with in terms of saving money...

I suspect it would be a bit like schools.
Good ones and bad ones.
And sadly sometimes you get what you can afford to pay.
My wife has also done some work in a couple of homes and has had some good experiences, but also mentioned a bit of a gap between the professionalism of some of the workers.

There seems to be a fair bit of scrutiny in terms of standards and accreditations but like other similar situations you can dress the place up for a couple of days if you know the 'inspector' is coming. If there are standards you don't meet there is usually a follow up where you get to correct it.

One of the big issues is availability of trained staff.
And that's not always because the big providers have their eye on the balance sheet.
It's not a go-to profession just at the moment especially in the wake of the pandemic.
It's something that needs to be addressed, especially in the area of registered nurses.
I think that's one of the priorities for Government that is being rectified.
But it's a case of people actually wanting to do the job.

It takes a special kind of person who gets career satisfacton out of feeding, washing and toileting old folks, especially those with dementia who are often resistant or physically aggressive.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 22, 2023, 04:24:37 pm
I suspect it would be a bit like schools.
Good ones and bad ones.
And sadly sometimes you get what you can afford to pay.
My wife has also done some work in a couple of homes and has had some good experiences, but also mentioned a bit of a gap between the professionalism of some of the workers.

There seems to be a fair bit of scrutiny in terms of standards and accreditations but like other similar situations you can dress the place up for a couple of days if you know the 'inspector' is coming. If there are standards you don't meet there is usually a follow up where you get to correct it.

One of the big issues is availability of trained staff.
And that's not always because the big providers have their eye on the balance sheet.
It's not a go-to profession just at the moment especially in the wake of the pandemic.
It's something that needs to be addressed, especially in the area of registered nurses.
I think that's one of the priorities for Government that is being rectified.
But it's a case of people actually wanting to do the job.

It takes a special kind of person who gets career satisfacton out of feeding, washing and toileting old folks, especially those with dementia who are often resistant or physically aggressive.

Trouble is with a lot of these homes the money that gets spent is on the presentation, fancy foyers, lounges, prints on the wall but behind all that the care is woeful. You can be paying a lot of money but the care in many cases is still the same as the cheaper ones.
The care providers try and cheat as well with the nurses and wont employ agency RN's with higher gradings and try and cover with Div 2's that have the medication certification and then claim the agency providing the nurse didnt have an RN available.
Happens in the hospital system as well when specialist nurses cant be found and regular RNs are sent to specialist wards etc.
Then you have the other rort with how the placements are funded depending on the financial status of the resident...if they have their home they will have to cash that in to pay for their room/bed and any refund is limited if they pass away after 12 months so the family if they have one stand to lose a lot of money. The homes are also happy to push you out to rehab/palliative units in hospitals if you become a burden if you are ill and get the next sucker resident into take their money as well and continue the cycle.
Of course if private operator homes are closed down for poor care, abuse etc then the residents become a Government problem and thats why Governments wont go hard on dodgy operators unless its created an uproar in the community and making headlines.
As you say the Inspectors only see what the homes want them to see and the infamous " piss smell test" where you can smell a bad nursing home at the front door cant be used anymore as the homes make sure they are smelling like the Myer perfume dept on inspection and the wards look like a garden nursery.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 23, 2023, 09:56:47 am
Swiss Government have canned CoVid vaccinations saying a large percentage of the population have natural immunity through antibodies and it's not required and it's now a individual matter between you and your Doctor depending on your heath status. The UK are also backtracking on vaccines and only recommending them for over 70s.
However the USA are going the other way and recommending them for babies as young as 6 months....
Not sure where this leaves Australia for the future..
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on April 23, 2023, 10:00:15 am
NB did my last few posts deny that Covid exists, did i deny its effect on the aged or elderly in our community?

I will try again, my main point was that the governments restrictions for the those in the middle aged and under bracket were IMO at odds with the risk posed by COVID in that group and those very restrictions caused more harm IMO in sharp increases in mental health conditions, suicide rates closing of businesses and strains on family then the virus (in that age demographic) did.

Is that very point too hard to understand without changing it to suit the narrative? 

I think the point from the infectious disease experts (Disclaimer, I’m not one, are you ?) is that the larger the unvaccinated (susceptible) population, the greater circulation of the virus and subsequently the greater mutation rate which can result in variations that can evade the current vaccines.
So while you’re 35 and full of cum and are unlikely to die should you contact Covid, you would be contributing to the Covid soup of variations and mutations.
Then our older and vulnerable are truly vulnerable.

Also it seems that people say “I had Covid and it was just a cold for 2 days” but they’re talking of the Omicron variant which is more transmissible but less severe, particularly for you.
Whereas the original Delta was harder to catch but more severe symptoms.
So had there been no lockdowns and had Delta been allowed to “let rip” the forecasts showed millions dead directly, let alone the people who couldn’t get a hospital bed after a heart attack or car accident… remember the footage of hospitals in France and Italy in the early days ?

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 23, 2023, 10:26:53 am
Swiss Government have canned CoVid vaccinations saying a large percentage of the population have natural immunity through antibodies and it's not required and it's now a individual matter between you and your Doctor depending on your heath status. The UK are also backtracking on vaccines and only recommending them for over 70s.
However the USA are going the other way and recommending them for babies as young as 6 months....
Not sure where this leaves Australia for the future..
This difference may be more about the way health works in those countries than efficacy or risks associated with the vaccines, the lowest cost option for the total population is unlikely to be the same everywhere because of differences in public health policy.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 23, 2023, 10:28:38 am
So had there been no lockdowns and had Delta been allowed to “let rip” the forecasts showed millions dead directly, let alone the people who couldn’t get a hospital bed after a heart attack or car accident… remember the footage of hospitals in France and Italy in the early days ?
Agreed, we don't need some sudden surprise disclosure from a closed state like China, Russia or India, we just have to remember paddocks and vacant lots in the UK being commandeered to stack bodies.

And I reiterate, the anti-(insert everything here) crowd always sprout "What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger!" it is truly a myth, it didn't work for BB and it won't work in the fight against a virus!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 26, 2023, 05:02:35 pm
I see the Baker Institute pretty much put a technical end to the claims of vaccines causing cardiac arrest. Even the most stubborn knew this deep down, we knew it was people looking for something to blame rather than having any real basis in fact. The staggering numbers of vaccines issued and the very very tiny number of cases from all those massive number of vaccines doses exposes the real myth, and it turns out the correlation is a conspiracy theory exempt of any basis in fact.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/no-truth-to-anti-vaxxers-claims-linking-covid-vaccine-and-sudden-cardiac-arrest-study-20230413-p5d0aw.html

Of course to believe the conspiracy theory, the anti-vaxxers had to ignore causation of unvaccinated people dropping dead of COVID related heart damage, which is the uncomfortable truth.

The astounding thing that comes out of this, is how gullible society can be when it choses to believe conspiracies!

All hail Rob Skiba!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 26, 2023, 05:21:00 pm
I see the Baker Institute pretty much put a technical end to the claims of vaccines causing cardiac arrest. Even the most stubborn knew this deep down, we knew it was people looking for something to blame rather than having any real basis in fact. The staggering numbers of vaccines issued and the very very tiny number of cases from all those massive number of vaccines doses exposes the real myth, and it turns out the correlation is a conspiracy theory exempt of any basis in fact.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/no-truth-to-anti-vaxxers-claims-linking-covid-vaccine-and-sudden-cardiac-arrest-study-20230413-p5d0aw.html

Of course to believe the conspiracy theory, the anti-vaxxers had to ignore causation of unvaccinated people dropping dead of COVID related heart damage, which is the uncomfortable truth.

The astounding thing that comes out of this, is how gullible society can be when it choses to believe conspiracies!

All hail Rob Skiba!
I cant see the article because its behind a pay wall but was that the study sponsored by the Medical Research Fund and based on findings in Melbourne mainly?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 26, 2023, 10:23:44 pm
I cant see the article because its behind a pay wall but was that the study sponsored by the Medical Research Fund and based on findings in Melbourne mainly?
Victorian data was certainly part of the study, I looked for the original report but can't find it, only summaries about this study as part of a series of global studies that have all independently arrived at the same finding.

This is the cardiologist who has been the target of death threats from Anti-vaxxers and made famous by Tucker Carlson lambasting her in Fox.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on April 26, 2023, 11:01:22 pm
That study should impress Shawny now he’s committed himself to giving science a fair sheik.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on April 27, 2023, 12:11:47 am
That study should impress Shawny now he’s committed himself to giving science a fair sheik.

Yep agree it’s case closed now professor Mav. Im like many on here so thankful for your vast knowledge on all topics and thanks to you i have fully converted. I’ve seen the light.
I’m now a devoted left winger, going to drive my electric car to get another booster tomorrow and will then drop in a donation into to our great inspirational leader Dan s office to congratulate him on such a great job he is doing.
Only thing I really hope he remembers he is still premier as I hear he still has that issue with forgetting stuff. Oh well.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on April 27, 2023, 07:45:01 am
And they say you can’t teach an old dog new tricks …
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on April 27, 2023, 08:30:34 am
I cant see the article because its behind a pay wall but was that the study sponsored by the Medical Research Fund and based on findings in Melbourne mainly?

Baker's funding comes from multiple, credible Trusts and thus their research is generally extremely objective and thorough.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 27, 2023, 09:16:11 am
Baker's funding comes from multiple, credible Trusts and thus their research is generally extremely objective and thorough.
I'm a bit less trusting than you and anything the Government fund tends to be skewed.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on April 27, 2023, 09:36:03 am
I'm a bit less trusting than you and anything the Government fund tends to be skewed.



As opposed to private funding…?

It’s an imperfect system but how else can it work ?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 27, 2023, 09:56:34 am
This assertion of distrust and biased reporting of findings from institutes like Baker comes directly out of the tobacco industry play book, which is quite ironic that they would assert a public health institute as being ................... ! ;D

Then part two of the anti-vax COVID conspiracy mud throwing is the "Do your own research" mantra, which of course none of them do because the nutters do not have billion dollar research labs, supercomputers or a 10,000 strong workforce like a health authority or public trust.

But the nutters do have Google, Facebook and a personal experience! :o
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on April 27, 2023, 03:11:18 pm
3rd hand anecdotes rate well too
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on April 27, 2023, 03:20:08 pm
3rd hand anecdotes rate well too
The UK "Yellow Card" system and other US or EU equivalents are built on anecdotes, and scarily politicians use that sort of data to make policies! :o

I suppose it is mostly opinion that gets them elected, not facts!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 05, 2023, 12:19:12 pm
Its interesting the current "wave". My wife got home Monday feeling a little under the weather, she tested Tues morning before heading off for work and she was positive so she's been home since. I tested negative until yesterday morning. Other than a slight headache the other night, I have no symptoms and my wife's were a slight sniffle. If she didn't test positive, I would have seen no reason to test myself given how I felt so I would have been happily going about my business in the community with covid.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on May 05, 2023, 12:57:02 pm
Our daughter finally got it.  At the moment we're moving in circles with groups that really don't want to get it, so have been a bit cautious.  Daughter gave it to wife.  but me and son are good so far.  It is certainly pretty mild version in our house.

My wife is much more into the testing even with the mildest of symptoms.  I need to have strong symptoms before I test.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Mav on May 09, 2023, 01:45:43 pm
Novel Rutgers COVID vaccine may provide long-lasting protection, medicalxpress.com (https://medicalxpress.com/news/2023-05-rutgers-covid-vaccine-long-lasting.html)

Sounds promising - a vaccine whose efficacy doesn’t wane immediately after administration and lasts for at least a year. But will it be given the accelerated emergency use approval that the existing vaccines enjoyed or will it have to work its way through testing over the best part of a decade? I’m sure Moderna and Pfizer will support a speedy process.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on May 09, 2023, 03:54:27 pm
Novel Rutgers COVID vaccine may provide long-lasting protection, medicalxpress.com (https://medicalxpress.com/news/2023-05-rutgers-covid-vaccine-long-lasting.html)

Sounds promising - a vaccine whose efficacy doesn’t wane immediately after administration and lasts for at least a year. But will it be given the accelerated emergency use approval that the existing vaccines enjoyed or will it have to work its way through testing over the best part of a decade? I’m sure Moderna and Pfizer will support a speedy process.
I might be cynical, you know with lightbulb conspiracies and planned obsolescence and the like, but what are the odds that Pfizer, AZ, Moderna and maybe even GSK announce their own versions of a similar new spike protein?
Title: CV
Post by: shawny on May 31, 2023, 12:00:26 pm
I think all the pokies stuff is the distraction, I'm not anti-gambling although I concede it hurts those who are addicted to it, but then so does too much beer or red meat!

Hmmmm. Double standards there LP.

I remember hearing when I argued the low Covid mortality rates in the all but the old or compromised that our states reaction was not in line and caused the debt our state will incur now for the next 10 plus years not to mention the businesses gone as a result and the pain inflicted on our young and mentally fragile.

Your and your wingman Mavs response was what if that 1 in 100 death is a family member you would want to protect them so we should stay locked inside. 

Surely you would apply the same thinking to gambling and it’s affects. It’s destroys families and a large percentage of suicides are gambling related.
Title: Re: CV
Post by: LP on May 31, 2023, 12:25:01 pm
Hmmmm. Double standards there LP.

Surely you would apply the same thinking to gambling and it’s affects. It’s destroys families and a large percentage of suicides are gambling related.

No, not at all.

Gambling is mostly something we do by choice, self-harm.

If you infected others with a potentially harmful virus either deliberately or through ignorance actions wouldn't that be attempted murder or manslaughter?

In this frame of reference, gambling is more like social drug use, it's harmful but you do it at your own volition.(At least in the beginning!)

Deliberately infecting people by refusing to isolate would be more like using drugs then choosing to drive, if you kill someone driving drug affected you should face the consequences!
Title: Re: CV
Post by: shawny on May 31, 2023, 05:11:32 pm
If you infected others with a potentially harmful virus either deliberately or through ignorance actions wouldn't that be attempted murder or manslaughter?

Deliberately infecting people by refusing to isolate would be more like using drugs then choosing to drive, if you kill someone driving drug affected you should face the consequences!


Absolute rubbish LP.

18 months ago we were locked in our houses like prisoners whether your vaccinated or not couldn't fly, take kids to a playgroung, get a haircut, play golf, go fishing, couldn't even walk around the block! All this while businesses went under and the state racked up the highest debt of any state. How anyone can seriously say that was a justified response has me buggered.

Yet now we are free to do whatever we want and vaccination is now our choice as it always should have been and yet Covid numbers are still climbing and very much present.

My niece is pregnant and fully vaccinated and works at the front desk in a company with 120 employees. She says several of them have been sneezing and coughing and have tested positive for covid yet when asked why are they at work most said they have no more sick days so cant afford to stay home. in other words 12 months ago businesses and playgrounds were closed down as Covid was so damaging and deadly yet now you can legally roam around and infect as many people as you want and the government are perfectly ok with it.

Did the virus change or do the political position on it?  Cant ask Dan as he wont recall.

      
Title: Re: CV
Post by: kruddler on May 31, 2023, 05:17:30 pm

Absolute rubbish LP.

18 months ago we were locked in our houses like prisoners whether your vaccinated or not couldn't fly, take kids to a playgroung, get a haircut, play golf, go fishing, couldn't even walk around the block! All this while businesses went under and the state racked up the highest debt of any state. How anyone can seriously say that was a justified response has me buggered.

Yet now we are free to do whatever we want and vaccination is now our choice as it always should have been and yet Covid numbers are still climbing and very much present.

My niece is pregnant and fully vaccinated and works at the front desk in a company with 120 employees. She says several of them have been sneezing and coughing and have tested positive for covid yet when asked why are they at work most said they have no more sick days so cant afford to stay home. in other words 12 months ago businesses and playgrounds were closed down as Covid was so damaging and deadly yet now you can legally roam around and infect as many people as you want and the government are perfectly ok with it.

Did the virus change or do the political position on it?  Cant ask Dan as he wont recall.

What has changed in 18 months?

Knowledge about the virus.
Title: Re: CV
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 31, 2023, 05:39:58 pm

Absolute rubbish LP.

18 months ago we were locked in our houses like prisoners whether your vaccinated or not couldn't fly, take kids to a playgroung, get a haircut, play golf, go fishing, couldn't even walk around the block! All this while businesses went under and the state racked up the highest debt of any state. How anyone can seriously say that was a justified response has me buggered.

Yet now we are free to do whatever we want and vaccination is now our choice as it always should have been and yet Covid numbers are still climbing and very much present.

My niece is pregnant and fully vaccinated and works at the front desk in a company with 120 employees. She says several of them have been sneezing and coughing and have tested positive for covid yet when asked why are they at work most said they have no more sick days so cant afford to stay home. in other words 12 months ago businesses and playgrounds were closed down as Covid was so damaging and deadly yet now you can legally roam around and infect as many people as you want and the government are perfectly ok with it.

Did the virus change or do the political position on it?  Cant ask Dan as he wont recall.

      
Yep Dan is up to his neck in debt and there is no way the economy is taking a break and losing money with lockdowns or any restrictions like we had before and we wont be talking about any Covid Stats this winter either just how its all Dr Phils fault for raising interest rates and making us all sick that way.
Title: Re: CV
Post by: shawny on May 31, 2023, 06:22:03 pm
What has changed in 18 months?

Knowledge about the virus.

If that's the case then Liam Jones was one of the smart ones while myself feeling compelled to get vaccinated should have just held my ground.

And all the hysteria has gone as well.  Amazing.





 
Title: Re: CV
Post by: shawny on May 31, 2023, 06:30:26 pm
Yep Dan is up to his neck in debt and there is no way the economy is taking a break and losing money with lockdowns or any restrictions like we had before and we wont be talking about any Covid Stats this winter either just how its all Dr Phils fault for raising interest rates and making us all sick that way.

Agree. I have to give it to Dan he has no peer in somehow getting out of scandal after scandal after scandal. Has there ever been a more corrupt government? 

Surely you would think some of the sh1t would eventually stick but the guy has a way to deny and deflect his way through. And sadly the Libs see it all and are powerless and weak and do SFA.

Saddest time in politics I've ever seen and this lying fool just continues on his merry way damaging the state to a point of no return. Our poor kids are in for a tougher time then they should be.           
Title: Re: CV
Post by: kruddler on May 31, 2023, 07:06:41 pm
If that's the case then Liam Jones was one of the smart ones while myself feeling compelled to get vaccinated should have just held my ground.

And all the hysteria has gone as well.  Amazing.

Clearly you misunderstood.

Thats not saying the virus is not dangerous, but rather the constant mutations mean that the initial reactions to it (lockdowns) were not going to be sustainable in the long term.
Title: Re: CV
Post by: shawny on May 31, 2023, 07:23:49 pm
Clearly you misunderstood.

Thats not saying the virus is not dangerous, but rather the constant mutations mean that the initial reactions to it (lockdowns) were not going to be sustainable in the long term.

The government completely misunderstood mate not me.

Liam Jones was berated on here for saying how awful and dangerous a man he was to be anywhere our team and he may kill players in the team as he is unvaccinated. Time has proven and clearly shown his obviously safe to be beside 40 of his teammates in showers, dressing rooms etc yet 18 months ago he was looked upon like he would be the grim reaper!

He had the balls to hold his ground on something he believed in despite all ridicule he never swayed.

Good on him.       
Title: Re: CV
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 31, 2023, 07:35:03 pm
The government completely misunderstood mate not me.

Liam Jones was berated on here for saying how awful and dangerous a man he was to be anywhere our team and he may kill players in the team as he is unvaccinated. Time has proven and clearly shown his obviously safe to be beside 40 of his teammates in showers, dressing rooms etc yet 18 months ago he was looked upon like he would be the grim reaper!

He had the balls to hold his ground on something he believed in despite all ridicule he never swayed.

Good on him.       

Will probably be the AA fullback, think I heard he has only had 5 goals kicked on him this year. Been a fair return to AFL for a bloke who copped plenty of hate for his actions.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on May 31, 2023, 07:51:58 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/07/is-covid-really-over-whos-announcement-sounds-more-like-surrender-than-victory

This is from about 3 weeks ago.
Title: Re: CV
Post by: kruddler on May 31, 2023, 08:23:28 pm
The government completely misunderstood mate not me.

Liam Jones was berated on here for saying how awful and dangerous a man he was to be anywhere our team and he may kill players in the team as he is unvaccinated. Time has proven and clearly shown his obviously safe to be beside 40 of his teammates in showers, dressing rooms etc yet 18 months ago he was looked upon like he would be the grim reaper!

He had the balls to hold his ground on something he believed in despite all ridicule he never swayed.

Good on him.

Liam Jones can do what he wants. IDGAF.
However, he put himself above the team, he made himself out to be an individual, and when you play a team sport, thats not great.
There has been talk about our current captain being an individual and its hurting the team....this is on-field...and my thoughts there are the same as they were with Jones. Be part of the team and do team things.
Jones chose otherwise, as is his right, and we effectively showed him the door, as is our right.

None of that has anything to do with any kind of genius intelligence in understanding of how COVID works though.

Its the governments job to govern for the people.
We couldn't be trusted to do the right thing and isolate, so the government had to step in and make us do it.

The government didn't 'misunderstand', the government didn't know....nobody did. Everybody dealt with it differently and did what they thought best with the information they were given.

Next time something like this happens, you and Liam Jones might try and take a similar stance, and it may work again.
.....or it may not. It may be more severe, and more likely to cause death. You think people will be dancing on your grave because they were proven right and you 'chose' wrong? No.
But you seem to be doing that in reverse.

I think its much better to err on the side of caution. You wanna be a risk taker, thats your right, but sooner or later, it may not work out as well.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on May 31, 2023, 08:26:25 pm
Liam Jones can do what he wants. IDGAF.
However, he put himself above the team, he made himself out to be an individual, and when you play a team sport, thats not great.
There has been talk about our current captain being an individual and its hurting the team....this is on-field...and my thoughts there are the same as they were with Jones. Be part of the team and do team things.
Jones chose otherwise, as is his right, and we effectively showed him the door, as is our right.

None of that has anything to do with any kind of genius intelligence in understanding of how COVID works though.

Its the governments job to govern for the people.
We couldn't be trusted to do the right thing and isolate, so the government had to step in and make us do it.

The government didn't 'misunderstand', the government didn't know....nobody did. Everybody dealt with it differently and did what they thought best with the information they were given.

Next time something like this happens, you and Liam Jones might try and take a similar stance, and it may work again.
.....or it may not. It may be more severe, and more likely to cause death. You think people will be dancing on your grave because they were proven right and you 'chose' wrong? No.
But you seem to be doing that in reverse.

I think its much better to err on the side of caution. You wanna be a risk taker, thats your right, but sooner or later, it may not work out as well.

Geez you can go on and on and on.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on May 31, 2023, 08:28:32 pm
Geez you can go on and on and on.

Sorry....i'll sink to your level.

Dan = bad.
 ::)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on May 31, 2023, 08:47:47 pm
Sorry....i'll sink to your level.

Dan = bad.
 ::)

That’s better 👍🏼
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Professer E on May 31, 2023, 09:26:19 pm
Bury a family member because of COVID and your viewpoint around vaccinations, lockdowns etc might change. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: shawny on May 31, 2023, 10:27:12 pm
Bury a family member because of COVID and your viewpoint around vaccinations, lockdowns etc might change. 

No prof I wouldn’t change but I understand your point as I’m too clinical. For example  I have buried far too many family members many young because of cancer so I personally am far more sensitive to most on cancer but still try and be balanced with the risks of it even though it has affected me a lot more personally then others.

You can always use the ‘what if’ argument but I don’t buy in on the hysteria. Sure in the elderly or those with pre existing issues it is far more likely to be a serious virus and if you’re in that bracket then you should do everything you can to protect yourself but the risk to the rest of the population is much lower so imo the economy should have been able to continue on as that decision has caused deaths in other sectors and several other deep rooted issues in the community that the government sweeps under the carpet.

Anyway each to their own mate. I was vaccinated but wouldn’t do it again.
Title: Re: CV
Post by: LP on May 31, 2023, 11:28:03 pm
What has changed in 18 months?

Knowledge about the virus.
Yep, and the virus has evolved more changing more than just about everything else around it.

But this COVID discussion doesn't change Shawny's flawed logic about the pokies / gambling debate being a distraction around the club's other issues. He's tried to draw an association between a voluntary action that cause self-harm, playing the pokies, with the deadly impacts of a virus that is transmitted. The Shawny motive seems to be to throw rocks at Sayers and Andrews, but the issues are chalk and cheese, they aren't related or connected in anyway.

As for trying to draw an analogy between not banning pokies while restricting movement during COVID, that's a long long long stretch. There are people who have died, and people who will live with long COVID for many years, perhaps even the rest of their lives. That long term health cost is estimated to dwarf the short term costs of lockdown.

Finally, to be of some use, to make the gambling analogy viable in relation to infection of innocent 3rd parties, we'd probably have to assert the gamblers stole the 3rd parties life savings before losing everything! That would be a closer analogy to actively infecting the bystanders, because when you infect someone who unfortunately passes you taken everything they ever had and everything they ever would have!

2022
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vydgkCCXbTA
Because only the old and weak are afflicted by COVID, mortality rates are low, apparently it's all been an expensive hoax, we could have saved billion$!

2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQp6sTDSGm8
Maybe surviving COVID for some people wasn't the best outcome!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on June 01, 2023, 04:51:06 pm
They found a cure. Garlic!!!!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 01, 2023, 05:06:50 pm
They found a cure. Garlic!!!!

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-31/australian-garlic-limits-spread-of-covid-and-flu-medical-study/102414668

Not a cure as such, but fascinating for sure.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 01, 2023, 05:35:03 pm
They found a cure. Garlic!!!!
Us Europeans always knew Garlic was the answer...and Windex.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 01, 2023, 05:54:07 pm
I thought it was a cure for Dan Andrews..I was excited...
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on June 06, 2023, 02:15:18 pm
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-31/australian-garlic-limits-spread-of-covid-and-flu-medical-study/102414668

Not a cure as such, but fascinating for sure.

Not even that, Paul.  From 7:19 on...

MEdia Watch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULwFO5RX-pk)
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: PaulP on June 06, 2023, 02:57:21 pm
Not even that, Paul.  From 7:19 on...

MEdia Watch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULwFO5RX-pk)

Lol. I should've squeezed in a little pro Italian propaganda whilst I had the chance.

I used to watch Media Watch religiously back when Stuart Littlemore was host. It fell off my TV watching schedule after that. Not sure why. I had no issue with Richard Ackland or any of the subsequent hosts. Maybe I should get back into it.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on June 06, 2023, 03:00:39 pm
How much damage have the Doherty Institute done themselves !
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on June 06, 2023, 05:05:27 pm
How much damage have the Doherty Institute done themselves !
It's pretty hard to judge the researchers or the institute via the media edits.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the researchers and institute have been verballed, the cutting room floor might be the tell!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on December 12, 2023, 10:39:38 am
Its been almost 3 years since this begun, and its finally caught up with me.

Had my first positive test last night.

Been feeling average since thursday night, negative on friday. Spent all day in bed on the weekend, back to work yesterday. Did a test last night for $hits and giggles and was positive.  :o

Already over the worst of it.

Got me curious though....
Has anyone else managed to go this long without a positive test?
and on the other end of things....
Who has tested positive the most?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 12, 2023, 10:51:03 am
Don't want to jinx myself but quite bizarrely despite working through the pandemic and continuing to be exposed to international travel I've never tested positive. I've had a couple of bouts of cold/flu over the pandemic but no positives for COVID so far, I am fully vaccinated with regular boosters.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 12, 2023, 11:26:40 am
btw., Branson telling us to copy Stockholm borders on offensive, I'm getting over these old billionaire's protecting their bank balances at a cost to individuals.

It's OK to make these claims that the young and healthy weren't affect, retrospectively, but at the time there was no certainty that COVID wasn't going to be as deadly for youth as it was elderly. In effect Sweden's gambled the wellbeing of it's youth, and reports of it's great pandemic success are more political spin than hard reality.

What Sweden did do well, which is reported as "not locking down" or "not following WHO guidelines", was that it went for a softer approach over hard lockdowns. Re-organising commerce to avoid things like peak hour travel and transport crowding. But it was starting as a society that was already well into a partial work from home / minimise carbon emissions ethic before the pandemic, and it took that to another level.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Thryleon on December 12, 2023, 12:53:26 pm
Its been almost 3 years since this begun, and its finally caught up with me.

Had my first positive test last night.

Been feeling average since thursday night, negative on friday. Spent all day in bed on the weekend, back to work yesterday. Did a test last night for $hits and giggles and was positive.  :o

Already over the worst of it.

Got me curious though....
Has anyone else managed to go this long without a positive test?
and on the other end of things....
Who has tested positive the most?
My wife never officially tested positive, nor her parents and I think her brother has succesfully dodged it too.

Meanwhile, My brother has had it 5 times, and my mate who is a paramedic twice.


When push comes to shove, you now know why those who copped it early thought things were a bit over stated.

I had my last booster in January of 2022 and caught covid in December of 22.

I havent been near it again since, nor have I felt the covid fatigue since.

I reckon given the state of the economy the worst of things on that front is still ahead, and I know a whole governemtn IT department has just been given the tap on the shoulder.

The group were a bunch of pi55 takers though.  Have rarely attended work since the start of the pandemic and spend more time in teams meetings talking about work, than actually doing any.  7 managers out of 22 and they were prime candidates for an outsourcing. 
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on December 12, 2023, 04:37:06 pm
I'm still holding my virginity.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 12, 2023, 05:27:47 pm
I'm still holding my virginity.
Thanks for sharing.....What about Covid?🤣
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on December 12, 2023, 05:40:48 pm
Thanks for sharing.....What about Covid?🤣
Someone had to say it
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Baggers on December 12, 2023, 06:26:26 pm
I have absolutely no doubt that Mrs Baggers and I have had Covid at least once or twice over the duration but neither of us has ever tested positive... makes me wonder about the efficacy of the testing kits more than anything.

One amusing symptom I had the last time I suspect Covid descended upon me, apart from feeling pretty ordinary, running nose etc... my morning scrambled eggs for two days running tasted like coconut! Delicious. Glad it didn't last though - love my morning scrambled eggs with chili.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: madbluboy on December 12, 2023, 09:38:54 pm
I got covid for a second time over a month ago and I only tested myself because I had a fuzzy head cold (kind of hard to explain it any other way) and my body was just fatigued, I just knew it. My wife still has a cough after 5 weeks so it's not just another cold.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: northernblue on December 12, 2023, 10:51:16 pm
@ElwoodBlues1
@kruddler
You Covid hoes are all the same 🤣
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 12, 2023, 11:07:07 pm
Mrs E and myself both got our first dose of Covid earlier this year and it was terrible  with bad headaches, cough,and body aches which left us fatigued.
Hospitals are rife with CoVid but there is an apathetic attitude now in the community and the public don't want to know, hear, or talk about it anymore.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on December 13, 2023, 08:50:14 am
I hope you have a full recovery with no lingering symptoms Kruddler.

Mrs DJC and I are still NOVIDs and we had the latest booster yesterday.  Apart from keeping up our vaccinations, we haven’t done anything to minimise our exposure.  Neither of us have been crook at all and the chances of both of us having asymptomatic COVID is pretty slim.

Some former NOVIDs in our circle recently contracted COVID.  My brother in law was quite ill but only for a short time.  His wife got the ant-virals early and only had mild symptoms.  A cousin still has a hacking cough some weeks after his other symptoms cleared.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: Lods on December 13, 2023, 09:20:22 am
I have absolutely no doubt that Mrs Baggers and I have had Covid at least once or twice over the duration but neither of us has ever tested positive... makes me wonder about the efficacy of the testing kits more than anything.

One amusing symptom I had the last time I suspect Covid descended upon me, apart from feeling pretty ordinary, running nose etc... my morning scrambled eggs for two days running tasted like coconut! Delicious. Glad it didn't last though - love my morning scrambled eggs with chili.

I'm not sure I'm convinced that the RAT tests are reliable.
Maybe they don't work as well with new variants.

I had a flu/head cold a few weeks back that seemed to be identical to my covid experience (fever, fatigue, cough, shortness of breath) yet I tested negative for the duration.
I still have the cough but it sometimes takes me weeks to get over that even with the flu and colds.

I'm sure there are many folks who don't experience more than the mild symptoms and don't even bother to test or isolate anymore.


Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on December 13, 2023, 09:44:47 am
I'm not sure I'm convinced that the RAT tests are reliable.
Maybe they don't work as well with new variants.

I had a flu/head cold a few weeks back that seemed to be identical to my covid experience (fever, fatigue, cough, shortness of breath) yet I tested negative for the duration.
I still have the cough but it sometimes takes me weeks to get over that even with the flu and colds.

I'm sure there are many folks who don't experience more than the mild symptoms and don't even bother to test or isolate anymore.

I had similar concrens lods.

I went to the docs, whenever it was - a couple months ago?, after testing negative on a rats but still having 'something'.
Got some tests done, it was negative to the flu, negative for covid but positive to something else i'd never heard of before, but is basically the same as those 2.
There were times before that i thought i might've had covid, but always negative on the rats.

However, this time, my rats test showed up as positive in record time. Would've been less than 30 seconds and it was as clear as day.

I'm sure its possible that i have an older strain which shows up more easily, but more likely to be the latest one doing the rounds.

Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: dodge on December 13, 2023, 10:32:26 am
It's a difficulty with Covid - so many different symptoms and so many that are the same as other illnesses.

I know heaps with Covid now for the mulitple time - some are getting it tough and some mildly.

My wife has had a cough for weeks that she can't get rid of - not Covid, not Whooping and it is really annoying, particularly at night where coughing fits wake us up several times.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 13, 2023, 11:12:29 am
Apparently RSV is quite bad at the moment, can be very serious for young children, has similar symptoms to COVID / Influenza and sticks around as a cough for weeks after you get it.

But we should not be surprised, the epidemiologists warned everybody that after the pandemic and isolation procedures we would get various waves of catch up infections because of reduced herd immunity. The problem is people don't listen, can't be bothered, claim it's a conspiracy or don't want to hear about it.

They also warned everybody COVID isn't done yet, and society has largely ignored that as well.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on December 13, 2023, 02:50:31 pm
Apparently RSV is quite bad at the moment, can be very serious for young children, has similar symptoms to COVID / Influenza and sticks around as a cough for weeks after you get it.

But we should not be surprised, the epidemiologists warned everybody that after the pandemic and isolation procedures we would get various waves of catch up infections because of reduced herd immunity. The problem is people don't listen, can't be bothered, claim it's a conspiracy or don't want to hear about it.

They also warned everybody COVID isn't done yet, and society has largely ignored that as well.

Thats what it was that i had previously, RSV. Yep, felt the same as covid and the flu.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on December 13, 2023, 05:10:11 pm
Thats what it was that i had previously, RSV. Yep, felt the same as covid and the flu.
Glad you're over it, as I said RSV can be very serious for children / babies, and also quite bad for asthmatics.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 05, 2024, 04:39:16 pm
The latest anti-vax conspiracy internet influencer terrorism;

"Deliberately exposing infants to whooping cough protects / boosts their immunity to RSV."

These nutters should be first against the wall, their kids will be better off!
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 05, 2024, 07:14:51 pm
The latest anti-vax conspiracy internet influencer terrorism;

"Deliberately exposing infants to whooping cough protects / boosts their immunity to RSV."

These nutters should be first against the wall, their kids will be better off!

Survival of the fittest.

Eventually their stupidity will do the work for us.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 05, 2024, 07:20:15 pm
Survival of the fittest.

Eventually their stupidity will do the work for us.
What is probably worse, is that the mega social media platforms defend those nuffies freedom to post pretty much whatever they like even if it costs a life or causes a lifelong disability dependency on us all. We should find a case, form a class action and sue them for lifelong costs.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 20, 2024, 05:55:12 pm
https://au.yahoo.com/news/huge-claim-about-origins-of-covid-19-by-leading-aussie-epidemiologist-063622809.html

My personal view from the start was that it was a man made virus in a Lab but I guess this is just another opinion with only one highly unreliable country knowing the real truth.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 20, 2024, 06:15:45 pm
https://au.yahoo.com/news/huge-claim-about-origins-of-covid-19-by-leading-aussie-epidemiologist-063622809.html

My personal view from the start was that it was a man made virus in a Lab but I guess this is just another opinion with only one highly unreliable country knowing the real truth.

There was a doco on (Netflix i think) that was talking about AI and specifically viruses.
I can't remember all the details, but these scientists were using it to generate sequences for vaccines etc.
Someone along the line they thought, wonder if we changed the 'virus lethality' marker from 0 to 1. (The smallest of changes in the code)
Ran it overnight, in the morning it had generated sequences for 1000's of the most deadliest viruses possible.

They debated whether they should tell anyone about it, ended up doing it and writing a paper on it. Wasn't long before they were summoned to all kinds of governments briefings including the white house.

It was so simple to do that it was scary.

So its 100% possible, now its just a matter if it actually happened in this instance. Given Chinas history and secretive nature, if it was going to happen anywhere.....
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: LP on March 21, 2024, 01:07:39 am
Ignore the Netflix dock stuff, it's truly fiction.

Of course it's possible to engineer a virus, but it's nowhere near as easy and as cheap as media like to imply.

One of the leading authorities on the Wuhan lab is the Aussie who was working there at the time, she said the claims were fantasy and the media ignore her. She isn't just an epidemiologist, she is an actual virologist.

Virologists will tell you the natural creation of such virus is common, what isn't natural is it becoming a pandemic, that's become possible due to human activities like packing live minks, stoats, civets, ducks, dogs and bats into sustained close proximity. Just that practice alone makes the Lab look like a toy, nature is 10000000X more powerful.
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: kruddler on March 21, 2024, 07:03:37 pm
Ignore the Netflix dock stuff, it's truly fiction.

Based on what?

These blokes wrote a paper on it, this was deemed important enough to go straight to the top of the US government at the white house.

....but you know better simply because i included 'netflix' in my post?
Title: Re: CV and mad panic behaviour
Post by: DJC on March 21, 2024, 08:08:00 pm
One of my nephews manages the IT for a major medical research facility.  He had to build a supercomputer to enable AI interpretation of millions of breast screens.  It’s theorised that there’s a link between female breast conditions and heart attack probability.  The research couldn’t be done without AI.

He told me that the advances in RNA vaccines prompted by COVID have opened the door to treating a range of conditions.  This is more traditional research rather than AI enhanced but it’s still playing a part.