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Topic: If Not BB, Who? (Read 62377 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #75 –
Quote from: madbluboy on
It's either a coaching problem or a list problem.

Bolton or SOS?

Who is at fault here?

It's not black and white, the recruiter does what the club and MC demand, the coach and MC work with what the recruiter can deliver. In recent times the demarcation point seems to be the appointment of LoGiudice, prior to that any measures are somewhat irrelevant.

If you identify just one or the other, you are basically just picking a side in a chicken and egg argument. To me that would be a return to the even worse times in the later days Elliott or Malthouse. Men who time had past!

The first part of being a successful AFL footballer is getting the football, we have no problem doing that we already win plenty of contested ball across all lines of the ground. As plain as day our problem is using it once we get it and that problem resolves with experience. Whether those youthful players lack that ability, or are just failing to execute as required is yet to be answered.
The Force Awakens!

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #76 –
Elliott days? When we were winning flags?

This is the worst era in our history. Right now!!!!

We can crap on about improvement and green shoots but it's not translating on the scoreboard.


2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #77 –
Quote from: madbluboy on
Elliott days? When we were winning flags?

This is the worst era in our history. Right now!!!!

We can crap on about improvement and green shoots but it's not translating on the scoreboard.

Later days of Elliott and Malthouse.

I don't see much difference between us and the Dawks of 2004/2005/2006. This is our 2006 right now, a year the Dawks won 4 games in the first half of the season before winning 9 games in total, after seasons of 4 wins and 5 wins, and we are starting from a much much lower base.

fwiw, I think our poor 2018 was anomaly. A rookie administration, a rookie MC and a shell shocked playing list that reacted to AFL and AFL media criticism by changing a game plan due to peer(media) pressure. They won't make that mistake again, we will stick fat now, we won't be Pavlov's Dog again!

I think we are much closer to having an iron clad defense than a dominant forward line, we should be trying to win ugly 50pts to 40pts before we worry about kicking 100pts. We were closer to wins two years ago but we folded under peer pressure to adopt a game style for TV purposes that didn't suit our list!

As for the AFL media now talking up our situation, they have to because we've done what they asked of us. If they bag us now they are bagging themselves!
The Force Awakens!

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #78 –
I think we have folks with strong views on both sides of the debate.
That's good for forum business...I'm not sure it's a position the club would want to see.

But there are also some of us who are sitting squarely in the middle....and I'm totally buggered if I know "Where we are at!"
'Have faith' I'm told.
But bloody faith is the most 'airy fairy' thing in football.
It's totally meaningless and has no influence on what will happen... (unless you're a club director)

The problem this season is the first three weeks have given us a group of results that have only muddied the perception.
Real Jekyll and Hyde stuff.
Some say they can see real improvement but if we look back over the last three years we could find many post game threads where we've talked about 'real' improvement.

I like Bolton. I like his attitude. I think he does generally have a lot of support from the playing group' I think they believe he can make them better players and have embraced what he's trying to achieve.
I'm also sure he's learning and developing in the role and his coaching will only get better.
But there is a time limit.
It's not set, and can happen very quickly if things go completely pear-shaped.
Am I convinced he's the coach that can get the results we want before his time runs out?...
No, I'm not sure, and that's based solely on the fact that the results so far are a decline in both wins and ladder position that hasn't been offset by a real improvement in development and performance.

It's not irreversible.
He has until the end of this season before any real pressure comes on.
What saves him?
For that we need to see wins and a steady rise up the ladder.
Now hopefully that may come...but we can't just wipe the last three years...and go "Starting Now!"

As we've seen in another thread the core of this playing group was there before Bolton.
With the addition of those drafted in his first year he has had a stable group that makes up a large part of his starting 22 players, albeit severely affected by injuries at different stages.

Yet what we've seen is us heading South in terms of ladder position and games won each year.
So until you turn that around you have to cop a bit of flack.

Show us some solid evidence in terms of
-player improvement
-teaming together and structure
-wins
-ladder improvement
….and the criticism will evaporate.

I still think the great majority of Carlton supporters want this to work.
I don't know what we do if it doesn't.

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #79 –
Quote from: madbluboy on
Bolton's record sticks out like dog balls.

He has all the draft picks, best player in the comp and full support of the board/club, media have been tame on him and the results are pathetic.

The draft picks that you refer to have been built up gradually. The club was at a very low point when he arrived. We assume and hope he has the board's full support. The fact that there is no news coming out on that front is a good thing IMO. And yes, the media has been good to him, in large part because he's affable and doesn't inflame situations, unlike Malthouse, who brought a lot of unnecessary heat on himself and the club.

Of course the results are lousy, as previously discussed. The only issue of any import is whether Bolton and the players can turn it around. I remain hopeful.

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #80 –
Quote from: madbluboy on
Elliott days? When we were winning flags?

This is the worst era in our history. Right now!!!!

We can crap on about improvement and green shoots but it's not translating on the scoreboard.

Elliot was successful when the system worked on his terms. I don't begrudge him that. But he was a stubborn, arrogant old coot who refused to change and thought he was bigger than the AFL, and could dismiss them and treat them like cr@p. He created a lot of trouble for us in his later years.

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #81 –
It's off topic, but I would not underestimate how important Docherty is on game day. He is IMO the smartest footballer on our list, and a natural conduit for Bolton, who like Clarkson, wants smart players that can think on their feet.

Doc is a big concern of mine. 2 recos on the same knee - there's no guarantee that he won't break down again, there's no guarantee he will play week in week out, and there's no guarantee he can regain his part form.

The club must be at least planning for a Docherty replacement if his future doesn't work out.

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #82 –
Quote from: madbluboy on
It's either a coaching problem or a list problem.

Bolton or SOS?

Who is at fault here?

I don't think a reductionist, binary approach like that will ever get you close to the truth.

With the benefit of hindsight, SOS' approach was kind of obvious. Both he and his dad played in successful teams that were chock full of superstars. His job at GWS was cherry picking the best talent, and the list certainly looks very classy and skilful. I'm guessing that even his time at the Saints coincided with their multitude of high picks, but I haven't checked.

IMO, our list is kind of a low rent version of GWS, mainly because we don't have generous draft concessions. 

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #83 –
Quote from: PaulP on
It's off topic, but I would not underestimate how important Docherty is on game day. He is IMO the smartest footballer on our list, and a natural conduit for Bolton, who like Clarkson, wants smart players that can think on their feet.

Doc is a big concern of mine. 2 recos on the same knee - there's no guarantee that he won't break down again, there's no guarantee he will play week in week out, and there's no guarantee he can regain his part form.

The club must be at least planning for a Docherty replacement if his future doesn't work out.

Fair post.....its 50/50 always with knees and the future so I'm sure the club will look to bolster the list with a junior Docherty type just in case things dont work out...Dean Rice did multiple knees but came back and was a premiership player so you try and stay positive. I'd like Tom Williamson back sooner than later but he is another who is probably 50/50 given back injuries are not easy fixes....two very important players and we need a change of luck.

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #84 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on
Fair post.....its 50/50 always with knees and the future so I'm sure the club will look to bolster the list with a junior Docherty type just in case things dont work out...Dean Rice did multiple knees but came back and was a premiership player so you try and stay positive. I'd like Tom Williamson back sooner than later but he is another who is probably 50/50 given back injuries are not easy fixes....two very important players and we need a change of luck.

Yes agree Elwood.

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #85 –
Quote from: PaulP on
It's off topic, but I would not underestimate how important Docherty is on game day. He is IMO the smartest footballer on our list, and a natural conduit for Bolton, who like Clarkson, wants smart players that can think on their feet.

Doc is a big concern of mine. 2 recos on the same knee - there's no guarantee that he won't break down again, there's no guarantee he will play week in week out, and there's no guarantee he can regain his part form.

The club must be at least planning for a Docherty replacement if his future doesn't work out.


Absolutely.  In fact, he is more important than Cripps.  Cripps has been this raging bull for a few years now, but only with Docherty on the field did we win games.

Id be playing him anyway, and putting him in a role that makes best use of his ability to provide on field leadership (when his knee is right to go again).

You never know what will or can happen, and its irrelevant.  Docherty is a lock for our team for the next 5 years, because once simpson and Daisy retires our other options in his position are poor or relatively broken if they are good.  Docherty might need a bit more of a kid glove approach from now on, but there is no reason why he cant provide us good service once (if) he recovers.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #86 –
We’ve been patient and trusting. In fact trusting to a Herculean level. And we’ve made progress, the CFC is now a world leader in how to lose really, really well. It’s not a catastrophe, yet.

From my understanding it was a commitment from the club, based on surveying us, that we wanted no quick fixes and no more blowouts.

Well, the club and senior coach have delivered on that. The ‘old Carlton’ would have sent BB, and others, packing long ago. We stayed the course for the first 2 years, with stoic persistence and moved the club away from way too many massive losses. These high number of blowouts are sure a thing of the past.

But…

We are now faced with a massive problem. We do not know how to win. We’ve got the blokes to win games, of that I am certain. Many sides have achieved a lot more with much less.

The problem is that a mind-set of avoiding huge defeats, is now ingrained in our club. It’s now the culture. Conservative, safe coaching is the norm.

Our players are now delivering exactly what they been trained to do over the past 3 years… avoid a bad loss. That’s their focus. That’s our focus. And it’s rock solid.

But when it came time to change that focus, realising we had to start kicking winning scores, to be more offensive, we seem to have found ourselves stuck in the initial mental conditioning/programming. Remember the start of last year? We announced over the summer of ‘17/’18 that we were adding an ‘offensive layer’. Lasted about 15 minutes into the 2018 season, then as soon as bona fide pressure was applied to our blokes, we ‘reverted to type.’ And we are still to this day, ‘reverting to type’ when pressure is applied. We do not know how to win, but we do know how to avoid a blowout, and this is BBs very obvious strength.

We need someone else to help transition the players to a winning mind-set. Not a Messiah, just someone who understands how to develop a winning mind-set in a sporting club.

To ask BB to suddenly become a very different senior coach/person with a different message is an horrendously difficult transition, not to mention whether the players will buy it. Looks like they’re not (as I assume he’s trying just that, now). And how could they? Some will (looks like Ed bought it big time), but most won’t. Do we want Walsh to have a safe/conservative mind-set?

What makes suggesting the need for strong change in coaching approach/style all the more difficult is that saying anything apparently negative about BB is like shooting Bambi. The bloke is so likeable, affable, bubbly… even sweet, so how dare you, Baggers, suggest he’s not the bloke for 2020 onward!!?? Doe like eyes, a smile that lights up the room… sheesh, even the media is going easy on him, cutting him way more slack than just about anyone else.

We probably made a rod for our backs with the initial brief to BB, which he delivered on, in spades, in the first 2 years… but he couldn’t change the course of the ship… stick to the coast, avoid rough seas (to use my former RAN life speak).

Arguments around ‘too many kids’ don’t cut it. Plenty of sides have an imbalance of kids and still find ways to win, ways to kick more than 100 pts. We definitely looked good enough to win our first 3 games this year, we just don’t know how to win.

Even when this side achieves perfect cohesion, it’ll only deliver brave, spirited, honourable losses week in week out (sound familiar?). Sure we’ll win a few games, but only against opposition in really bad form.

Wonder if anyone in the media will have the macaroons to ask hard questions about where our rebuild sits at this very minute. I bet the club expected us to be way better now than we presently are – equal bottom and with an uncanny ability to get into winning positions then sabotage it. If we stay this course for much longer we will run aground.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #87 –
Quote from: Lods on
I think we have folks with strong views on both sides of the debate.
That's good for forum business...I'm not sure it's a position the club would want to see.

But there are also some of us who are sitting squarely in the middle....and I'm totally buggered if I know "Where we are at!"
'Have faith' I'm told.
But bloody faith is the most 'airy fairy' thing in football.
It's totally meaningless and has no influence on what will happen... (unless you're a club director)

The problem this season is the first three weeks have given us a group of results that have only muddied the perception.
Real Jekyll and Hyde stuff.
Some say they can see real improvement but if we look back over the last three years we could find many post game threads where we've talked about 'real' improvement.

I like Bolton. I like his attitude. I think he does generally have a lot of support from the playing group' I think they believe he can make them better players and have embraced what he's trying to achieve.
I'm also sure he's learning and developing in the role and his coaching will only get better.
But there is a time limit.
It's not set, and can happen very quickly if things go completely pear-shaped.
Am I convinced he's the coach that can get the results we want before his time runs out?...
No, I'm not sure, and that's based solely on the fact that the results so far are a decline in both wins and ladder position that hasn't been offset by a real improvement in development and performance.

It's not irreversible.
He has until the end of this season before any real pressure comes on.
What saves him?
For that we need to see wins and a steady rise up the ladder.
Now hopefully that may come...but we can't just wipe the last three years...and go "Starting Now!"

As we've seen in another thread the core of this playing group was there before Bolton.
With the addition of those drafted in his first year he has had a stable group that makes up a large part of his starting 22 players, albeit severely affected by injuries at different stages.

Yet what we've seen is us heading South in terms of ladder position and games won each year.
So until you turn that around you have to cop a bit of flack.

Show us some solid evidence in terms of
-player improvement
-teaming together and structure
-wins
-ladder improvement
….and the criticism will evaporate.

I still think the great majority of Carlton supporters want this to work.
I don't know what we do if it doesn't.

There are coaching issues, when we have the game on our terms like the first quarter this week, we looked good, but any decent coach can shut down young kids from running with the football, especially a good defensive team like Sydney. What Bolton has failed to do is implement a game plan that counters this. GWS is a running side and when the opposition tries to block things up they keep the opposite wings wide, which enables a release kick when fed out the back.

ATM if we win the ball in congestion we feed the ball back, then kick down the line and any half decent coach knows that, places a defender 30m forward of the stoppage, they get the ball and kick into the middle of the ground as all of their player who were congesting the play run off our guys and this opens the ground up putting our defense under pressure. We were just luck this week that Jones and Weitering were able to play out of their skins.

Imagine the same play where we feed the ball back, but instead of kicking it down the line they run 10m to the middle of the ground and kick to the opposing wing to our player we have there waiting for the release kick, it doesn't have to be on his chest but in his general area, and we are away.

The opposition then have to decide are they going to allow this, if they man him up, then we send another over there and create a two on one, this will then stop the play getting too clogged up and allow our young runners to get some momentum again.

If the opposition win the clearence the wing pushed out can run to the middle and block the players who want to get to the middle.

That is a very simplistic look at it but it works for GWS well, just ask DeLideo who gets many easy kicks by being that release valve.

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #88 –
Quote from: Raydan on
There are coaching issues, when we have the game on our terms like the first quarter this week, we looked good, but any decent coach can shut down young kids from running with the football, especially a good defensive team like Sydney. What Bolton has failed to do is implement a game plan that counters this. GWS is a running side and when the opposition tries to block things up they keep the opposite wings wide, which enables a release kick when fed out the back.

Yet it's taken GWS almost 5 years to get things working reliably, they are no longer a team of kids! ;)

If GWS remain fit and healthy they will go close to wining the flag this season, if they win one they might well win 3, 4 or 5 and that will mean our list efforts are wasted! GWS are the common enemy of all traditional clubs, SOS is correct in mining their list, and by that very mining effort he is undermining their list depth! But if they stay healthy and intact watch out!
The Force Awakens!
 

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #89 –
When most of your mids cant hit a target or run at 65% DE, the opposition can back themselves in to get some easy turnovers....we need a simple plan to accommodate our simple skilled players which means you become predictable taking the easy defensive route which means kicking short along the boundaries and getting nowhere...ending in turnovers as your players get cornered.
We dont have enough players who can quickly with precision hit those targets across ground with long kicks and switch play...losing Docherty and Williamson hasnt helped either who are good kicks...