Ollie hollands is showing signs he could make a good leader.
Adam Cerra might he another (he does speak eloquently).
You know a few people come across as many children or not leadership material and then surprise people.
Tex walker James Sicily. Max gawn.
Sometimes thrusting people into these roles will make them grow. I reckon fev may have needed captaincy to kick on and mature back then. For a club where we were he was dedicated enough. Bit selfish though.
Still, you just never know. On paper Murphy was a captain. In practise....
What he did at Brisbane has no relevance to what he's doing with us.
Its a different group, at a different club, at a different time for football.
You cannot judge any of his work today by what he had done elsewhere unless you're looking for signs of growth and how he handled situations then vs now.
Sam docherty is the only player who's played for him at both clubs, and what he has to say about Voss would be the only words worth listening too, but even he isnt the same person he was back then.
10 senior coaches in 25 years. An average of 2.5 years each. This is worse, when you consider it's been 4 years of voss, it was 4 years of Bolton and 5 years of Ratten.
Some have churned through a few, but there's a theme. Who's another basket case for most of this century?
Melbourne. They've had 7 senior coaches. Who else? Freo? 4.
Who else? Essendon and the saints equal our record.
There's a theme there. Crap clubs, lots of off field controversy and instability (financial penalties too) and a complete and utter failure to achieve anything since the year 2000 with st.kilda getting an asterisk for a brief period of being a bridesmaid, but more often than not, these clubs miss finals.
@kruddler continuing on that average age chat, was just doing some various mental gymnastics about sides and average ages.
It could be right, but I think its being over stated somewhat.
Off thr top of my head our oldest players today would have been cripps, docherty, Williams, saad, haynes, McGovern. Acres probably a smidgeon behind them. The rest are all under that age or thereabouts.
So it may very well be thr oldest average, but we dont exactly have a cliff coming where the rest of the side is in dire straights.
@Thryleon A better breakdown of current ages 30+: 6 - Cripps, McGovern, Williams, Saad, Docherty, Haynes Missing 1 - Newman 27-29: 7 - Silvagni, Weitering, Curnow, Cincotta, Hewett, Acres, Fantasia - Missing 2 - Pittonet, McKay 25-26: 5 - Boyd, L. Young, Fogarty, Cerra, De Koning Missing 2 - Cottrell, Walsh*** turns 25 next week
Thats 18 players.... From the rest who played....
23: 1 - FYoung. 21: 2 - Motlop, O. Hollands 20: 2 - Lord, Wilson
Don't know what considers a 'cliff', but you'd expect better from that group if they were fit.
Biggest issue with that list is the younger age brackets. eg 25-26 has 5 players. TDK will walk. L. Young and Boyd are not considered best 22, Fogarty might be, but only just. Cerra only managed 17 touches last night and thats not good enough.
yeah cool. So it was a bit on the older side. Using that guideline, we need to get better and younger, and thats where last years draft haul comes in hopefully.
When I say the cliff, it's similar to the one we hit early 2000's. Older players breaking down and becoming ineffective, not enough young coming through.
We should be capable of bringing in a couple of free agents in the coming seasons.
The thing about age though its not what it used to be. Where Bradley was an outlier, we should see players go a bit longer. Not in all cases but the way players go you'd have to say 33 years old is the end on a very general level. Some will go earlier some later but the way sports science has gone its conceivable to go that long. Thing is all of them have broken down alot and some have shouldered bigger loads for longer. Might break them earlier.
This is why I'm against trading McKay and walsh if tdk walks. If he stays, maybe McKay, but I dont like the idea of trading out key forwards. Call PTSD from having exactly 0 viable key position players but jarrad Waite and fevola for years, and taking 10 years to find the ones we have.
We agree on one thing at least - Acres needs to be sent out for whatever op he needs because he has deadset stunk. Im not sure of his contract situation but I'd think long and hard about renewing it. Saad would be close to running around at Willy next week too if he had any awareness whatsoever.
Few rumours around that this might be Saad's last year. If he went out for concussion he won't be playing anyway
contracted for next year so I doubt it, but players retire early all the time.
I dont understand the outrage. She's likely to be learning how to coach and you would have to know her intimately to know if she'd make a good coach.
Look at hawthorn. All their assistants are from Carlton and they value them highly. Hickmott, ratten, simpson. They'd have every right to say why those spuds who know how to lose? The answer is not obvious.
The best teams plan and plan everything to the finest detail.
They may start resting players, but whoever the players are that go out there will go at 100%, nothing is sure because the players on the fringe of selection are battling for a spot!
Id rather face their A team who are training hard prepping for the business end of the year, than the fringe types looking to get in.
Those types will crucify us because they can sense a premiership.
I think the drop off is temporary and a product of a list that isnt in good condition.
You seem to think its at optimum capacity to perform and not performing to that potential.
There is the variance, its not about condeding or arguing who is right or wrong, but saying it was at full strength is a massive stretch. Cripps alone is playing within 50% of his top form of last season. Is he rubbish now? Or is he simply having an off year?
We dont play like this, because our squads outside game is significantly hindered by players being broken down. All our creative and running types are well down on their best so we have to stick with what our strength is, and try and generate scores that way, because we dont have another mode we can go to.
We lost to Richmond in Round 1 with close to full list.
You have said this a couple of times, but our list isnt close to being in good condition, and I debate how close to full it was, given the team that fielded that day didnt include a two time coleman medallist, and had 2 new players that hadnt played for the club before. That doesnt sound like full strength to me.
This business about "the modern game" seems to be the hottest ticket in town. I'd be curious to know what it actually is.
We arent good enough so the reason we arent good enough isnt because we arent good enough, some external factor is imposing an artifical restraint to make us look bad.
Remove the restraint, and all will be rosy.
Same old Carlton arrogance thinking we are or entitled to be, better than we are.
Thing is, its sometimes as simple as, we are not going well (theres enough evidence there to say we arent in good condition) and rather than accepting that, we need to "fix it" because old Carlton knew how to fix things, and in our hubris, we can fix it.
Thing is, game plans are game plans. There are finite things you can do in tactics. Everything old will become new again, and right now, the run and gun game style is "modern footy" with scores off intercept and rebound currently being the way to hit the opponent.
Who played like that? Ratten.
We dont play like this, because our squads outside game is significantly hindered by players being broken down. All our creative and running types are well down on their best so we have to stick with what our strength is, and try and generate scores that way, because we dont have another mode we can go to.
Everyone outside the club want us to sack him, because they know it will short circuit us and ensure another 5 years of another team not being competitive.
This is their art of war. Tear down your enemy at all costs. They know we made a prelim a couple of years back, and notice how the guys they reckon we should trade for draft capital arent playing now, and we are getting hammered? Walsh and Mackay. Is it REALLY worth trading two players in their prime for youngsters in a compromised draft this year? we shouldnt be trading anyone around the 27 year age bracket. Look at Kennedy. We put 7 years into him, just to trade him the second he started playing consistent footy at age 28.
What the hell was Austin thinking meanwhile trading both our first and second rounder this year? I understand gambling on the Hawks not backing up thinking that their rise might have been premature, but we've somehow decided that trading second rounders and ending up with Brisbanes was worthwhile after they played in back to back grand finals.
Thing is I cant even hope they fall off a cliff, because we need them to stop Collingwood thanks to Sydney being poo this season.
I know everyone wants Lemmey to play, and I personally was against him playing because I dont think he is ready, but he might give Charlie some freedom if he can get his running patterns right.
Harry O Farrell is a lot more of a mobile defender, and this week could be a good week to bring him in.
Ben Camporeale was the other who gave a good account against the North Melbourne reserves.
We will find out a bit about the youngsters in waiting tomorrow night against Port Melbourne. It probably wont be pretty. Port are a good VFL side usually but they are currently sitting 16th on the ladder out of 21 (we are 14th).
We chose this path. We removed senior players and brought in kids, keep in mind Voss wanted Dan Houston. How were we going to be stronger in 2025 than we were in 2024?
We have sown the seeds of what we see today, when we embarked on SOS strategy.
The second we got impatient and deviated, we started reacting to the current situation with minimal foresight. The move of Bolton to David Teague lacked any critical thinking, and the butterfly effect of all these decisions have been quite impactful.
You look at Collingwood. 2 premiership players from 2010 still play for them. The team that they used in 2018 that lost the grand final had a fair chunk from the previous premiership team, and at least 6 of those 2018 runners up became premiers in 2023, along with another or 7 players who were on the list but didn't play in the 2018 grand final.
Docherty and Cripps are the only players on our list that played for Malthouse in 2015. Hell, of our 2018 list (2 years into SOS rebuild) we only have the following still playing for us:
Why are they better? Here are the players that are on the list in 2023 when they win the flag, that were there in 2018.
De Goey Elliott Pendlebury Adams Sidebottom Crisp Murphy Moore Hoskin-Elliott Maynard Howe Mihocek Cox
13 players vs our 7!!!
Almost a full starting 18 remain on their list. Why is their team so much better?
Oh, they have only had 3 senior coaches to go with the above for the 26 years (could be longer, I know Malthouse was there in 99, and I know they only moved to Buckley and then Mccrae).
Do we still want to turn over yet another 25% of the list, and do we still want to sack our 3 coach in 7 years?
