All ready for tomorrow.
Thread is open for business...
Reckon we'll do a roaring trade :(
That was the worst exhibition of coaching I've come across since the days of Pagan. I'm all for teaching and development but why go back to something they left us totally lost, confused and regularly thrashed.
Was going to say Heart breaking but Carlton broke my heart years ago.
Then there is soul crushing, upsetting, devastating but you have to care for that to happen.
SO Numbing
Posted this in the game thread just before it was locked up, I'll give it another run.
I'm sick of being embarrassed by my football team, if we're going to be dismantled then at least go down with an eye on the future and not with a bunch of spuds and hack rejects from other clubs.
Weitering, Silvagni and Cunningham play next week for starters, Williamson the week after, and Kerr stays in, how can we possibly expect a kid in game one to shine in an outfit like we put on the park today?
If they don't start cutting the spuds very shortly I'll lose interest after 50 plus years.
This is by far our worst MC performance for the whole season, it looked to me like we expected the Dees to play the same way they played last season, and that we pretty much ignored every game they had played this season!
I really do not know what to say, we looked lifeless!
Today's game looked like a tell, and the VFLW and VFL results, is there something rotten in Denmark?
The AFL as a industry tried it's best to kick us during the week, and instead of sticking fat and rallying in defiance, we've gone meekly into the night!
Do we look like a club that doesn't want to be there, like we've lost the will to survive?
Posted this in the game thread just before it was locked up, I'll give it another run.
I'm sick of being embarrassed by my football team, if we're going to be dismantled then at least go down with an eye on the future and not with a bunch of spuds and hack rejects from other clubs.
Weitering, Silvagni and Cunningham play next week for starters, Williamson the week after, and Kerr stays in, how can we possibly expect a kid in game one to shine in an outfit like we put on the park today?
If they don't start cutting the spuds very shortly I'll lose interest after 50 plus years.
Yes, what's the bet Kerr is the one to go. He had an excellent first half but what hope did he have in the 2nd half.
It was a disgraceful performance from the coaches through to the playing group. Started with the coaching. It was purely brainless.
I think we've started mounting a strong case for a priority pick.
IDK where to start, but i wont suggest what we've always done in the past and that's sacking the coach.
on field leadership needs to change, Murphy is at the end, and has been there for some time. He owes the club, not the other way around.
some of the new guys Garlett, SPS, SOS, are not up to it, the others need more time and the fillers are there only to bind the cement.
Lauding list manager may have come early, but without knowing how knowledge, tactics , etc is engendered at the club, its hard to say.
We've been here far too long and too many times, without success, and the only department that has performed given the reoccurring performance (of lack thereof ) is marketing. Without them lying proficiently , this club would be an after thought.
Geelong at Geelong and Sydney in Sydney the next 2 games.
Terrific ::).
This was always going to be a L. Im not too bothered by the outcome but the process.
I thought we lost our way (?structural, attitude, mismatched- not sure) q2 3 and 4. Inevitable to blow out on the scoreboard, but 100+ tells me nobody was able to step up. That's the depressing part for mine. Not sure what learning that affords :-\
Interesting how Bolts addresses the club.
Our defence was hopeless today.
What’s going on with Plowman? He stuff everything he touches.
Jones and Rowe gave me the craps today.
No one bar Cripps wants to get in for hard ball gets.
Playing Murphy was akin to having one less player.
We have been screwed with injury - not Many hard bodies out there. But surely when they go to tackle they can just hang on to the player? I think all our tackles are just shrugged off.
Our next two weeks will be so ugly, I am actually worried for B.B. because I don’t think he is to blame. He was feral at the players at 3/4 time.
Little to get too obsessed about other than we stynk it up everywhere. Bar Cripps, the players with the most touches generally don't and didn't use it well in a midfield of headless chooks, a back line that can't kick and a forward line that...didn't see much action
Boy its getting hard to keep the youngster keen on Carlton. Attended open training yesterday, but even that was pretty underwhelming, with only a few players sticking around to sign stuff.
Bad signs of lethargy and giving up are there and its not even halfway through a very grim season. Brisbane currently leading...
When I heard Bolton gave them a spray I thought it would be interesting to see the response.
There wasn't one.
Dissapointing.
Jones was back to his old self after quarter time.
Jed lamb, McKay and cripps aside everyone else did some really poor things at times which just kept being very costly.
Little to get too obsessed about other than we stynk it up everywhere. Bar Cripps, the players with the most touches generally don't and didn't use it well in a midfield of headless chooks, a back line that can't kick and a forward line that...didn't see much action
Boy its getting hard to keep the youngster keen on Carlton. Attended open training yesterday, but even that was pretty underwhelming, with only a few players sticking around to sign stuff.
Bad signs of lethargy and giving up are there and its not even halfway through a very grim season. Brisbane currently leading...
Viv, let the kid support another team as an interim measure, and get him to come back to the Blues once the rebuild is over, circa 2057.
A couple of times during the game, when they showed the injured, suspended and out of form sitting in the grandstand I was reminded of an old Wayne Brittain quote from 2002.
"I remember one game walking out behind the team as they ran out on to the ground. All these injured blokes in a Carlton uniform were walking up to the grandstand. I looked at them and thought: 'There's 15 or 16 blokes who would have been in the best 18. There's my team; who has just run out out there?' That was the first time I thought: 'This is going to be a tough day.'
Injuries, suspension and the out of form affect a young side like our current one to a far greater extent than a good side.
That's not an excuse just an observation
Today was terrible....and it hardly explains a 100 point loss...
The reasons for that are many and some obscure.
We beat an Essendon side who beat Geelong....but you wouldn't give us much of a chance next week.
Just goes to show form-lines are meaningless and it's more about 'mentally' turning up to play.
For whatever reason we didn't today.
....and that's disturbing for the weeks ahead.
Murphy couldn't have possibly been right.Plantar fasciitis is a prick of an injury that takes months or even longer. What is wrong with our people bringing back injured players. Kennedy, who's obviously never been right since round 1, Marchbank now Murphy all to struggle because they were far from ready to return. We are run by friggen idiots.
A couple of times during the game, when they showed the injured, suspended and out of form sitting in the grandstand I was reminded of an old Wayne Brittain quote from 2002.
Injuries, suspension and the out of form affect a young side like our current one to a far greater extent than a good side.
That's not an excuse just an observation
Today was terrible....and it hardly explains a 100 point loss...
We beat an Essendon side who beat Geelong....but you wouldn't give us much of a chance next week.
Just goes to show form-lines are meaningless and it's more about 'mentally' turning up to play.
For whatever reason we didn't today.
....and that's disturbing for the weeks ahead.
Nice perspective lods.
Outmuscled, outpressured, outskilled, outtackled, outrun,outthought,outplayed and I'm sure this list could be added to but I can't be bothered, tonight anyway. :(
Outmuscled, outpressured, outskilled, outtackled, outrun,outthought,outplayed and I'm sure this list could be added to but I can't be bothered, tonight anyway. :(
You can add outcoached too....
Mullet, O'Shea, Rowe, Graham, Kerridge and Lamb aren't good enough and never will be, if we're going to be beaten by 100 points it might as well be with a team of kids who might make the grade one day.
Throw Casboult in as well, while he's our key forward we'll always be a laughing stock.
Play the kids and roll the dice, what have we got to lose?
Garlett played a shocker but he's young and hasn't played much football, give him another 20 games and if he's still doing bugger all cut him.
What is it that makes us think that players who aren't good enough at other clubs will morph into AFL standard footballers at Carlton?
This must be the year for breaking records.
That was Dees biggest win in quarter of a century :-[
That's a very long time in anyone's books. I wonder what other records we'll help topple this year. Moreover, how does the club keep our budding talent from looking further afield?
Can only imagine it's very difficult for the players, particularly with our 2's struggling as well.
It's going to be a very long season. I hope we at least get our injuries sorted.
Let’s get real
O’Shea, Garlett, Jones, Thomas, Rowe, Mullett and Kerridge VFL at best
Kerr, Dow, McKay, SPS, OBrien wouldn’t be playing in many other teams
Probably left out a number of others, but it’s 50% of the side, so that’s the issue
You can add outcoached too....
Too true. We just had no idea and no answers. Comprehensively and systematically dismantled today.
Murphy couldn't have possibly been right.Plantar fasciitis is a prick of an injury that takes months or even longer.
I've had that injury myself when I was about Murphy's age, it's very painful but it can clear up very quickly, I went from hobbling to running freely almost overnight.
Too true. We just had no idea and no answers. Comprehensively and systematically dismantled today.
In BB's learning environment I hope he took notes today and learns quickly.
Mullet, O'Shea, Rowe, Graham, Kerridge and Lamb aren't good enough and never will be, if we're going to be beaten by 100 points it might as well be with a team of kids who might make the grade one day.
Throw Casboult in as well, while he's our key forward we'll always be a laughing stock.
Play the kids and roll the dice, what have we got to lose?
Garlett played a shocker but he's young and hasn't played much football, give him another 20 games and if he's still doing bugger all cut him.
What is it that makes us think that players who aren't good enough at other clubs will morph into AFL standard footballers at Carlton?
Don't mind Lamb. We seemed to have found a role for him. Rowe I don't mind usually but would prefer we go with Marchbank and Weitering when they are ready again. Maybe rowe's experience with the other two might be useful for this year still but that's it. Kerridge is ok for depth but that's all as is Graham. Don't play when other's are up and going.
The only thing I got out of today's game was in the first half with the McKay, Kerr combination for the future. Poor buggers had no hope in the second half. Those two and Curnow, who can play key position, 3rd tall or even midfield, are a forward line we can base ourselves around for many years.
I've had that injury myself when I was about Murphy's age, it's very painful but it can clear up very quickly, I went from hobbling to running freely almost overnight.
Problem is that "overnight" comes months later.
Murphy couldn't have possibly been right.Plantar fasciitis is a prick of an injury that takes months or even longer. What is wrong with our people bringing back injured players. Kennedy, who's obviously never been right since round 1, Marchbank now Murphy all to struggle because they were far from ready to return. We are run by friggen idiots.
x2.....Murphy wasnt fit and should have come back through the twos slowly, its not like we are playing for sheep stations....Kennedy is a worry IMO and Marchbank who is also injury prone needs the Weitering treatment in the twos for a couple of weeks to prove his fitness...
I've had that injury myself when I was about Murphy's age, it's very painful but it can clear up very quickly, I went from hobbling to running freely almost overnight.
Depends on whether it's a full or partial tear, or if it's just a strain.
In BB's learning environment I hope he took notes today and learns quickly.
I feel there is more to this than BB, it looks like there is more to this than BB, I wonder if he is being undermined.
Don't mind Lamb. We seemed to have found a role for him. Rowe I don't mind usually but would prefer we go with Marchbank and Weitering when they are ready again. Maybe rowe's experience with the other two might be useful for this year still but that's it. Kerridge is ok for depth but that's all as is Graham. Don't play when other's are up and going.
The only thing I got out of today's game was in the first half with the McKay, Kerr combination for the future. Poor buggers had no hope in the second half. Those two and Curnow, who can play key position, 3rd tall or even midfield, are a forward line we can base ourselves around for many years.
I agree with most of that except for Lamb, he wouldn't be getting a game anywhere but Carlton.
Let’s get real
O’Shea, Garlett, Jones, Thomas, Rowe, Mullett and Kerridge VFL at best
Kerr, Dow, McKay, SPS, OBrien wouldn’t be playing in many other teams
Probably left out a number of others, but it’s 50% of the side, so that’s the issue
Of that later lot though other clubs would snap them up fast for a high draft pick if available. Thomas has had a great year. Rowe does ok but like Levi is a fill-in while other s develop. The other's we don't need in the side.
Regarding injuries: I heard Oliver broke a finger last round and had surgery during the week. He was a bit quiet today - probably because of that. Just shows that sides with depth can carry a player or two. We are not one of those sides. Playing Murphy was plain stupid from where I sit.
A few harsh on SPS. 22 possessions, was actually throwing himself into the packs, 6 tackles. A significant improvement on recent efforts IMO.......after 28 career games.
AFLW, VFLW, men's seniors, magoos.......................
Thematic consistency. The entire club is in a fug, and I'm wondering if anyone inside the 4 walls knows why.
I agree with most of that except for Lamb, he wouldn't be getting a game anywhere but Carlton.
Sometimes you get the best out of players by finding them roles that they are suited. Sydney forever makes a silk purse out of a sow's ear by doing that with ordinary players. That's what good sides do with those types.
Nothing positive to say after that, turned off at the start of the 3rd but it was all over long before. Pick yourselves up, dust yourselves off and train hard this week. Oh and bring your mouth guards. What I do know is that inconsistent sides like ours lose the winnable and win the losable. They are likely to drive down to KP and knock off the Cats this week.
A few harsh on SPS. 22 possessions, was actually throwing himself into the packs, 6 tackles. A significant improvement on recent efforts IMO.......after 28 career games.
Ironically he did look better today, I agree.
Liam Jones can be your best friend or your worst enemy.
He is a 'chaos creator'...but creating chaos on the backline isn't always productive.
A good game last week and he started well today with a couple of strong marks but it went downhill pretty quickly.
Not that he had much chance with the way the ball was coming in but he played well off his man again so he virtually gave himself no chance.
With Casboult out today was a day we could have used him in that second ruck position and brought Weitering in to play his role.
A few harsh on SPS. 22 possessions, was actually throwing himself into the packs, 6 tackles. A significant improvement on recent efforts IMO.
Agree wasnt our worst and in conditions that probably dont suit him......Nick Graham was amongst our best and clearly the sting taken out of the track suited a slower player like Graham.
We just dont have the big bodies apart from Cripps and in conditions like that especially when Gawn dominated the ruck we were going to struggle...E. Curnow was a big loss in those conditions..
Melbourne did their homework too and had some good matchups, we struggled in the coaching box and were slow to move players IMO.....
Melbourne are an ok side but not 100 points better IMO....OShea, Mullet and Rowe were woeful which didnt help either.....
Nothing positive to say after that, turned off at the start of the 3rd but it was all over long before. Pick yourselves up, dust yourselves off and train hard this week. Oh and bring your mouth guards. What I do know is that inconsistent sides like ours lose the winnable and win the losable. They are likely to drive down to KP and knock off the Cats this week.
GTC that last sentence shows just how vivid your imagination can be! :))
Liam Jones can be your best friend or your worst enemy.
He is a 'chaos creator'...but creating chaos on the backline isn't always productive.
A good game last week and he started well today with a couple of strong marks but it went downhill pretty quickly.
Not that he had much chance with the way the ball was coming in but he played well off his man again so he virtually gave himself no chance.
With Casboult out today was a day we could have used him in that second ruck position and brought Weitering in to play his role.
Fair point on Jones...Gawn was smashing us anyway in the ruck, Jones big athletic frame in the middle would have been more useful in the old fashioned follower role.....
The defense was horrendous as a group......Thomas was tagged and we lacked a bit of leadership with Rowe out of sorts too...
Used my son's MCC provisional membership to get a couple of tickets for the wife and myself to have a family day at the footy. Great idea! Ended up leaving half the way through the last. Worst performance I've seen for many years.
Just have to add worst coaching for many years as well. As one point in the game we had a 4 man forward line. I think it was when we were 6 goals down and we STILL bombed it in long. Defies logic.
9 games in and we are still playing Mullett, O'Shea, Kerriga, Graham, Garlett, SPS, Jones, PlHaven't they had enough chances? Are the blokes running around in the two's really that bad that they can't get a gig?? Seriously?
No system, no passion, no idea.
We had better efficiency inside 50. 17 shots from 33 inside 50s...hahaha.
We must've missed a couple completely to get the count to 17.
A few harsh on SPS. 22 possessions, was actually throwing himself into the packs, 6 tackles. A significant improvement on recent efforts IMO.......after 28 career games.
I had him among our best, he kept grinding away when all was lost.
What I didn't like to see was Plowman run onto a ball with about 10 minutes to go then spray it wide and miss the lot under no pressure, good footballers go just as hard 10 goals up as 10 goals down.
Docherty would have nailed it.
Agree wasnt our worst and in conditions that probably dont suit him......Nick Graham was amongst our best and clearly the sting taken out of the track suited a slower player like Graham.
We just dont have the big bodies apart from Cripps and in conditions like that especially when Gawn dominated the ruck we were going to struggle...E. Curnow was a big loss in those conditions..
Melbourne did their homework too and had some good matchups, we struggled in the coaching box and were slow to move players IMO.....
Melbourne are an ok side but not 100 points better IMO....OShea, Mullet and Rowe were woeful which didnt help either.....
EB we were like little boys being pushed around by tough big men. Our tackles were contemtuously shrugged far too often. The need for bigger bodies at the coal could not have be made more obvious.
Agree wasnt our worst and in conditions that probably dont suit him......Nick Graham was amongst our best and clearly the sting taken out of the track suited a slower player like Graham.
We just dont have the big bodies apart from Cripps and in conditions like that especially when Gawn dominated the ruck we were going to struggle...E. Curnow was a big loss in those conditions..
Melbourne did their homework too and had some good matchups, we struggled in the coaching box and were slow to move players IMO.....
Melbourne are an ok side but not 100 points better IMO....OShea, Mullet and Rowe were woeful which didnt help either.....
"Struggled" is probably a nice word about our effort in the coaching box. I had other more colorful words...lol.
Depends on whether it's a full or partial tear, or if it's just a strain.
I feel there is more to this than BB, it looks like there is more to this than BB, I wonder if he is being undermined.
That’s one hell of a leap. Im gutted by today’s loss but you look at what we put out there and the effort of some individuals- we have some good assistant coaches, I see this more as players not listening or being capable of playing to instruction.
Ducking kerridge - kicks round corners instead of playing percentages, daisy try’s to play champagne football to LOB when Spumante would have been the better option. Jones failing to get body contact with his opponent ....the list goes on. I agree wiTh an earlier post, get rid of the spuds and let the kids play!
No matter what way you cut it, I believe that's our biggest ever loss to Melbourne. Something is seriously wrong. Game plan non existent, recruitment worse, injury rehab and depth pathetic .. I won't go on
A few harsh on SPS. 22 possessions, was actually throwing himself into the packs, 6 tackles. A significant improvement on recent efforts IMO.......after 28 career games.
I agree and said as much in the game thread.
He went in hard today compared to previous games. His vision, decision making, and handballling was improved. There were a couple of times this resulted in getting it out of congestion to a teammate in the clear. It fell apart then as we were outnumbered or outmuscled.
I think Samo is building slowly, which is all you can ask for of a 2nd year player. Little Zac has been the more steady improved this year. Today though, he struggled to find any consistency. More a symptom of the team IMO. Young 1, 2, 3 year players will have poor performances every few games. Our problem is we can't cover for all the youngsters in a game, let alone game after game. Some of that is the flow on effect of so many injuries.
started leaving after the Lamb goal in the third.
Quite often the ball goes to the right places, however the players don't, so we are consistently following up and scrambling for the ball. The is also a significant amount of missed targets, again requiring a huge amount of energy to follow up.
Kicked down the line a lot was due to a lack of targets and movement.
There were a couple of cracking handballs, but then our player gets caught trying to take them on.
We aren't gelled as a team yet. Is this due to not having or best 22 going round, length of time playing together, game plan not being understood, or adapted for the team that we have on the park.
More concerned about the first half and 5 minutes of third quarter then the second half. They scored some very easy goals...
That’s one hell of a leap. Im gutted by today’s loss but you look at what we put out there and the effort of some individuals- we have some good assistant coaches, I see this more as players not listening or being capable of playing to instruction.
Ducking kerridge - kicks round corners instead of playing percentages, daisy try’s to play champagne football to LOB when Spumante would have been the better option. Jones failing to get body contact with his opponent ....the list goes on. I agree wiTh an earlier post, get rid of the spuds and let the kids play!
Apparently Bolton blew up at the three quarter time break.
Even the commentators were impressed by the venom.
But...
Are our coaches making 'promises' our players cant keep?
Are their expectations exceeding the player's ability?
The players obviously weren't following instructions.
We've seen that a couple of times over the last decade...where a coach's plan is too demanding, or complicated, for the players at his disposal.
In that case either the plan changes or the coach changes.(We usually choose option 2 ;))
They key difference between last week and this was the effort and attitude...yep, you'll get that with young sides but that's one hell of a roller coaster.
The thing is...If we throw it over to the kids then expect the losses to exceed 100 points on many occasions while they develop...and we can't go whinging about that.
The thing is...If we throw it over to the kids then expect the losses to exceed 100 points on many occasions while they develop...and we can't go whinging about that.
The upside is that they develop and grow together as a group and succeed or fail as one, the team we had on the park today is a patchwork of bits and pieces.
To me, sitting in the stand, we just looked, primarily, overwhelmed physically and the rot started there. Also Melbourne were far quicker and slicker on the breakout and punished us seemingly at will. By contrast when we tried to break out we were too often stopped by lack of ideas and slow movement, skill errors and turnovers or fierce Melbourne tackling. Done like a dinner today I'm afraid to say. Brushed aside.
In case today's loss wasn't bad enough we're back on the bottom now. Brisbane have stitched up the Hawks is Brissie and have a much better percentage than us.
The upside is that they develop and grow together as a group and succeed or fail as one, the team we had on the park today is a patchwork of bits and pieces.
It's actually a strategy I've supported....getting all the young ones playing together.
The question in my mind was whether we do it at senior level or at VFL level (another reason for our own stand alone VFL side)
If we do it at senior level there must be a core group of senior players that remain in the side.
They're the players like Kreuzer that give the example and also offer a bit of support and protection while the young develop.
But we should still expect, and be prepared for, some massive losses.
You know you've had a bad day when a spud like Melsham kicks five.......
Nothing to say here, this is what a complete rebuild looks like at the beginning of the third year, farking ugly!!
Patience my brethren, watching the Bears make the Dawks look second rate for me confirms we are on the right track, confident to predict Brisbane V Blues finals in about three years. I am in no way delusional, this stripping back of the previous incarnation had to happen if we were to create something sustainable and not some fly by night band aid that we used to revel in to sell us a poxy vision that we were at least competitive. I like what I am seeing with the youth, blokes like Kerridge, O'Shae, and Graham are only out there to make up the numbers, they will be replaced by the likes of Dochety, Byrne, Curnow (C+E), Williamson, Cunningham etc.
In the words of Yazz (the singer not Yarran!) "The only way is up...."
In case today's loss wasn't bad enough we're back on the bottom now. Brisbane have stitched up the Hawks is Brissie and have a much better percentage than us.
Lions up by almost 10 goals no less :o
Well it's No 1 draft pick heading our way.....
If there's any integrity in the competition we should also get a pp. We've been bottomed out for how long?
Lions up by almost 10 goals no less :o
Well it's No 1 draft pick heading our way.....
If there's any integrity in the competition we should also get a pp. We've been bottomed out for how long?
The problem is we bottomed out by choice... publicly
You cant give away all your stuff and then say... I've got no stuff give me some ;)
It's actually a strategy I've supported....getting all the young ones playing together.
The question in my mind was whether we do it at senior level or at VFL level (another reason for our own stand alone VFL side)
If we do it at senior level there must be a core group of senior players that remain in the side.
They're the players like Kreuzer that give the example and also offer a bit of support and protection while the young develop.
But we should still expect, and be prepared for, some massive losses.
I don't think that we'd lose too many by more than 109 points.
The club is hamstrung by injuries but the failure to select a side with any hope of winning bewilders me. No run from defence. Again. Why?
Why pick injured players?
Why no movement forward of the kicker?
Why play with such a, I don't know the words, such a worthless defensive set up? Why persist with it for four quarters when it clearly wasn't working?
Why Jones continues to play "defence" like he did today staggers me. U14 let defenders are smarter than he is.
Why do we continue to pick blokes that are just no good? Their errors and non-contributions kill us.
Why do blokes who can play lose all semblance of skill when they play for us?
Big problems at all levels with this club. Other than glimpses of a prototype forward line, not one bankable positive today.
Lastly, we have to get Cripps help. Now. Not next year, he'll be broken by then.
To me, sitting in the stand, we just looked, primarily, overwhelmed physically and the rot started there. Also Melbourne were far quicker and slicker on the breakout and punished us seemingly at will. By contrast when we tried to break out we were too often stopped by lack of ideas and slow movement, skill errors and turnovers or fierce Melbourne tackling. Done like a dinner today I'm afraid to say. Brushed aside.
Lot of slow movement in the brain too..eg .Mullet went up for a marking contest he had no hope of winning with Jones and a Melbourne tall and left Melksham on his own...easy goal.
How many times did the ball go out the back to unmanned Melbourne players?......we dont man up at all..either in the midfield or down back.....Ed Curnow missing was about the worst player we could have out as he does pick up a man. OShea spent most of his day being 30 seconds late on the contest or giving away dumb free kicks in front of the umpire, they missed a few too he gave too....
Mullett in the wet is like a fish out of water....been waiting a while to use that line and he didnt let me down, doesnt contest in the dry much less the wet and with so much loose ball and a lack of easy receives he joined Oshea as next to useless all day.
Rowe reminded me of a grasshopper stranded in a puddle, couldnt get his legs working and was all over the place...
Plowman was ordinary and not for the 1st time....cant even kick the ball these days....
Simpson battled on but knew it was a lost cause and Daisy just wanted to punch on with Vince and got tagged and sucked in...cant blame him wanting to punch Vince though...
Liam Jones started ok but ended up out of sync with the flow of the game and got caught in between contests or like OShea just arrived too late...
Defense which was the cornerstone of Boltons game plan is a rabble without Docherty IMO.....
Against Geelong...
just let the players go and have fun, play to instinct, play their position.
Too many instruction have caused the players to lose their instinct and it second guesses their ability (can't hit target)
They all can play, they all have skills and we see this when newbies start, they just go out to show their wares then after a couple of games the coaches go righto we need you to do this.... then the second year blues then they might come around in the third year.
Just tell them the basics and to go out their to enjoy their footy again.
The club is hamstrung by injuries but the failure to select a side with any hope of winning bewilders me. No run from defence. Again. Why?
Why pick injured players?
Why no movement forward of the kicker?
Why play with such a, I don't know the words, such a worthless defensive set up? Why persist with it for four quarters when it clearly wasn't working?
Why Jones continues to play "defence" like he did today staggers me. U14 let defenders are smarter than he is.
Why do we continue to pick blokes that are just no good? Their errors and non-contributions kill us.
Why do blokes who can play lose all semblance of skill when they play for us?
Big problems at all levels with this club. Other than glimpses of a prototype forward line, not one bankable positive today.
Lastly, we have to get Cripps help. Now. Not next year, he'll be broken by then.
Been saying it all year he needs a rest during games but everytime he goes out of the midfield other teams just cash in and dominate us...
We need that Ben Cunnington strong body workhorse who can take over the grunt work and farm the ball out to Dow, Obrien etc.....
Kennedy was meant to be that player but looks busted up after round one vs tigers.....not sure why he has been played injured, its just another woeful piece of off field work by our brains trust..
Of that later lot though other clubs would snap them up fast for a high draft pick if available. Thomas has had a great year. Rowe does ok but like Levi is a fill-in while other s develop. The other's we don't need in the side.
Second lot are great but there aren’t too many other clubs that would need to play them at this stage
Give the boys free reign, play a Blighty game plan
Other teams drip feed their youngsters into the big time. We have to play them consistently on mass. If O’Brien or Dow had been at Geelong or Swans, they’d be rotated out and ‘managed’ by now for a few weeks. This attitude of ours goes back to Kruezer’s first year.
Give the boys free reign, play a Blighty game plan
They had free reign today, none of them went near there Melbourne opponents, we need disciplined manning up and team defense....
Players like Melksham had a picnic with our free reign.....never seen so many easy uncontested goals...
Other teams drip feed their youngsters into the big time. We have to play them consistently on mass. If O’Brien or Dow had been at Geelong or Swans, they’d be rotated out and ‘managed’ by now for a few weeks. This attitude of ours goes back to Kruezer’s first year.
Murphy's ;)
Other team drip feed their youngsters into the big time. We have to play them consistently on mass. If O’Brien or Dow had been at Geelong or Swans, they’d be rotated out and ‘managed’ by now for a few weeks. This attitude of ours goes back to Kruezer’s first year.
Fair point.....our senior players apart from a few are not good enough to carry the newbies, Saints have the same problems.....then you look at Stephenson from Collingwood who has been playing really well but its on the back of a dominate Collingwood midfield who can get him some easy ball and use his running strengths.
Dow and OBrien have to win contested footy at the coalface which isnt their job, they are creators/runners like Stephenson but forced to do it harder.....
Murphy's ;)
Gibbs, Weitering, Petrevski-Seton last year without a pre-season and now Dow.
When you're desperate you don't have much choice, due to our woeful recruiting over a sustained period we just don't have that core group of foot soldiers to take the load off the kids.
That's because those players are playing elsewhere.......
Gibbs, Weitering, Petrevski-Seton last year without a pre-season and now Dow.
When you're desperate you don't have much choice, due to our woeful recruiting over a sustained period we just don't have that core group of foot soldiers to take the load off the kids.
We therefore answer our own questions in a sense by acknowledging that, due to sins of the past, we are forced into a ‘play all the youth at all costs’ strategy which is a long, long way home.
That's because those players are playing elsewhere.......
To some extent, but we are missing a group of mid 20's players due to drafting failures.
Watson, Bootsma, Austin, Menzel, Lucas, etc. etc. etc.
We therefore answer our own questions in a sense by acknowledging that, due to sins of the past, we are forced into a ‘play all the youth at all costs’ strategy which is a long, long way home.
We have no other choice in my opinion, we've been down the recycled road and it leads nowhere.
A disastrous combination which we are reaping now....
We therefore answer our own questions in a sense by acknowledging that, due to sins of the past, we are forced into a ‘play all the youth at all costs’ strategy which is a long, long way home.
Unfortunately yes
It's a vicious circle...Who had the easier path into senior football?
Who was surrounded by players that served as examples and protectors?
Murphy at Carlton or say a Selwood at Geelong.
In retrospect Murphy has done exceptionally well.
But he would have had a better introduction to AFL elsewhere.
why hasn't Shaw been given a run...
100 gamer, hard at it, runs all day - couldn't be any worse than Mullet or O'Shea...
Losing faith in the Bolton Plan....appears the players may be too....
That’s one hell of a leap. Im gutted by today’s loss but you look at what we put out there and the effort of some individuals- we have some good assistant coaches, I see this more as players not listening or being capable of playing to instruction.
It's not like it's an isolated week, you'd have to assert they haven't learnt a thing in 3 years!
Contrast that result with the Lions, they look organised, they execute the basics and sacrifice for each other.
Ducking kerridge - kicks round corners instead of playing percentages, daisy try’s to play champagne football to LOB when Spumante would have been the better option. Jones failing to get body contact with his opponent ....the list goes on. I agree wiTh an earlier post, get rid of the spuds and let the kids play!
The defenders coming off the HBF are on a hiding to nothing, because you know somewhere down the chain we will turn the ball over and the mids and forwards will exert minimal pressure on the roll back.
Liam Jones started ok but ended up out of sync with the flow of the game and got caught in between contests or like OShea just arrived too late...
There is the difference between Jones and Weitering, Weitering will read the play and place himself in the right locations, Jones has to be in the right location by chance so that he can impact the contest. Weitering will mark the ball giving us control, Jones will punch the footy creating chaos!
One is the future, the other a passing curiosity!
Put Jones inside F50, instruct the mids to kick the ball long and high 20m from wherever he stands, and make sure the kids are front and square. The new focus by umpires on blocking will really help him.
To some extent, but we are missing a group of mid 20's players due to drafting failures.
Watson, Bootsma, Austin, Menzel, Lucas, etc. etc. etc.
Yes. Spot on. Add Boekurst to that and it's a telling tale :'(
Not on our list anymore but their shadow continues to haunt us.
Many of us have said it. Our middle tier flopped, leaving the elders to bring up the babies. Tall order.
Quite apart from the issues presented thus far, we have probably got the worst bottom 6 players in the AFL, and as Robert Walls and no doubt others have said, a team is as good as its bottom 6 players. Mullet played 18 games for North last year, Vickery played 17 in his last year at Richmond - both those players are cut, and the team improves ? Of course there is much more to it than that, but I really wonder sometimes whether the focus on maximising high end talent is overstated, and whether we should be trying to shore up our bottom end instead ? Richmond don't have much elite talent, but they have managed to sort out their bottom 6 beautifully.
Oh, and the scroll bar on the right side of the page is behaving strangely again.
Oh, and the scroll bar on the right side of the page is behaving strangely again.
It's only displaying really active topics.
If you want to post in another thread ...do so and it will become active on the scroll bar.
Apparently Bolton blew up at the three quarter time break.
Even the commentators were impressed by the venom.
But...
Are our coaches making 'promises' our players cant keep?
Are their expectations exceeding the player's ability?
The players obviously weren't following instructions.
We've seen that a couple of times over the last decade...where a coach's plan is too demanding, or complicated, for the players at his disposal.
In that case either the plan changes or the coach changes.(We usually choose option 2 ;))
They key difference between last week and this was the effort and attitude...yep, you'll get that with young sides but that's one hell of a roller coaster.
The thing is...If we throw it over to the kids then expect the losses to exceed 100 points on many occasions while they develop...and we can't go whinging about that.
Actually Principal LODS, I think it is simply that last week we really didn't have an opponent and this week we did, and when the pressure came we folded badly, very badly. This is a theme with us, when genuine heat comes from an opponent, we fold.
I won a dubious bet with Mrs Baggers... she bet at loss by under 34 pts. I bet a loss by 10+ goals, just knew it in my bones that an in-form side would tear us up. Oh, what was the bet? Let's just say I don't feel as bad now... :D
I really believe that even with the Curnows we would have still suffered a heavy loss, not 100+ pts, but probably still around 10 gls.
Unfortunately I really don't think we know much about where we really are at present. I said a few weeks back that I suspect after the bye, when we have most players available, we should do better, and win a few games - if not, then I wouldn't want to be BB at year's end.
By the bye, or just after, we should have (by year's end, anyway), Williamson, Pickett, SOS - CUZ, Marchbank and Byrne. And we'll know more about the SOJ experiment as a mid/fwd, whether Weitering has regained consistent touch, Polson as a run-with, whether Cuningham can actually put more than 2 qtrs together, whether Kennedy is injured or another GWS dud.
Bottom line is that we need two gun, mature aged, BIG BODIED midfielders at this year's draft...no more little bodies FFS. Murphy, ZF and SPS should be outside mids, not inside... just to fkn small.
If not for Cripps, god knows how many huge losses we would have had.
Fair point.....our senior players apart from a few are not good enough to carry the newbies, Saints have the same problems.....then you look at Stephenson from Collingwood who has been playing really well but its on the back of a dominate Collingwood midfield who can get him some easy ball and use his running strengths.
Dow and OBrien have to win contested footy at the coalface which isnt their job, they are creators/runners like Stephenson but forced to do it harder.....
Does this mean we are on Mission Impossible? I.e. you can't do a ground up rebuild in a live AFL environment? ???
I won a dubious bet with Mrs Baggers... she bet at loss by under 34 pts. I bet a loss by 10+ goals, just knew it in my bones that an in-form side would tear us up. Oh, what was the bet? Let's just say I don't feel as bad now... :D
Too much information, Baggers ;D
I thought it was persecuting me!!!! I also can't quote or use the emoji's....
Does this mean we are on Mission Impossible? I.e. you can't do a ground up rebuild in a live AFL environment? ???
That's always been my concern.
Had we not cut so deep and done it gradually would we be better placed.
Time will tell.
I thought it was persecuting me!!!! I also can't quote or use the emoji's....
That's a different issue....give it till the morning and then let us know if you still have that problem.
In the meantime if you want to quote just copy/paste
Baggers, me and my missus call that the "usual bet", she never pays.......
You know you've had a bad day when a spud like Melsham kicks five.......
Nothing to say here, this is what a complete rebuild looks like at the beginning of the third year, farking ugly!!
Patience my brethren, watching the Bears make the Dawks look second rate for me confirms we are on the right track, confident to predict Brisbane V Blues finals in about three years. I am in no way delusional, this stripping back of the previous incarnation had to happen if we were to create something sustainable and not some fly by night band aid that we used to revel in to sell us a poxy vision that we were at least competitive. I like what I am seeing with the youth, blokes like Kerridge, O'Shae, and Graham are only out there to make up the numbers, they will be replaced by the likes of Dochety, Byrne, Curnow (C+E), Williamson, Cunningham etc.
In the words of Yazz (the singer not Yarran!) "The only way is up...."
Never in my wildest dreams would I have thought Yazz and The Plastic Population would be mentioned on this site. But there you go. ;D
Chin up kids, the sun will come up tomorrow, trust me. And Yazz is correct, "The only way is up".
That's always been my concern.
Had we not cut so deep and done it gradually would we be better placed.
Time will tell.
And mine. Had we still had senior players such as Waite, Robinson, Betts etc., our kids could be coming through gradually, and in winning sides... but then we wouldn't have some of our kids as we would have had higher picks! Good old Catch 22.
There really needs to be an assault by the club at this year's draft for performers aged 23-26. We simply have too many blokes with too few games being expected to deliver way too much.
Baggers, me and my missus call that the "usual bet", she never pays.......
:)) :)) :))
I was going to quote "The Clash: Train in Vain", great song but slightly negative perspective.....
I thought it was persecuting me!!!! I also can't quote or use the emoji's....
>:D :'( :'( :-\
Still feel like you're being persecuted ;)
I was going to quote "The Clash: Train in Vain", great song but slightly negative perspective.....
No justification required to quote anything from London Calling.
Only by Mrs Hanwell when she never pays her bets.......
Does this mean we are on Mission Impossible? I.e. you can't do a ground up rebuild in a live AFL environment? ???
Ground up rebuild is harder....you need to be rebuilding, reinventing while you are still a good team and have good senior players to look after and help your newbies.
Stkilda did a ground up with Pelchen and its failed.....same problem as us, not enough mid range/ elite depth to support their newbies, they also went a lot of small bodies too and tried
to top up with fringe GWS players ie Bruce, Steele and other fringe types like Roberton, Weller, Savage, Kobie Stevens etc...hasnt worked..
Who do these words refer to I wonder?
"So all alone I keep the wolves at bay
and there is only one thing I can say,
Did you stand by me
No not at all
Did you stand by me
No way.."
Train in Vain, The Clash, London Calling 1978(?)
Ground up rebuild is harder....you need to be rebuilding, reinventing while you are still a good team and have good senior players to look after and help your newbies.
Stkilda did a ground up with Pelchen and its failed.....same problem as us, not enough mid range/ elite depth to support their newbies, they also went a lot of small bodies too and tried
to top up with fringe GWS players ie Bruce, Steele and other fringe types like Roberton, Weller, Savage, Kobie Stevens etc...hasnt worked..
EB, do you think the players or Richardson is the bigger problem ? He doesn't inspire much confidence in me tbh.
Actually Principal LODS, I think it is simply that last week we really didn't have an opponent and this week we did, and when the pressure came we folded badly, very badly. This is a theme with us, when genuine heat comes from an opponent, we fold.
I won a dubious bet with Mrs Baggers... she bet at loss by under 34 pts. I bet a loss by 10+ goals, just knew it in my bones that an in-form side would tear us up. Oh, what was the bet? Let's just say I don't feel as bad now... :D
I really believe that even with the Curnows we would have still suffered a heavy loss, not 100+ pts, but probably still around 10 gls.
Unfortunately I really don't think we know much about where we really are at present. I said a few weeks back that I suspect after the bye, when we have most players available, we should do better, and win a few games - if not, then I wouldn't want to be BB at year's end.
By the bye, or just after, we should have (by year's end, anyway), Williamson, Pickett, SOS - CUZ, Marchbank and Byrne. And we'll know more about the SOJ experiment as a mid/fwd, whether Weitering has regained consistent touch, Polson as a run-with, whether Cuningham can actually put more than 2 qtrs together, whether Kennedy is injured or another GWS dud.
Bottom line is that we need two gun, mature aged, BIG BODIED midfielders at this year's draft...no more little bodies FFS. Murphy, ZF and SPS should be outside mids, not inside... just to fkn small.
If not for Cripps, god knows how many huge losses we would have had.
I think we need to buy in two readymade decent BIG BODIED mids...we need them up and running now...Cripps needs the help now......Dow and OBrien need to be on wings not contesting with Bigger bodies at the coalface....
I’ve been one of the positive glass half full guys. Today however has made me seriously doubt things.
Been said on here a lot but wtf do we continue to top our list up with players of the calibre of O’Shea, mullet and will even add Garlett to this. Then on top of that we continue to back them in and play them week in week out when they are clearly not up to it.
The rebuild is into the 3rd year yet apart of charlie, fisher, and if I’m generous McKay, all the rest we selected are at best ‘jury still out’ prospects.
I know we need to stay the course and I know some of the guys we have got in are still very green but my point in we are 3 trade periods in and I would have liked to have at least 6-7 in the zac fisher level which we simply don’t have.
Far from ideal.
Murphy's ;)
Luke Livingston's...
It's a problem we'll hopefully be able to stop after this lot.
I watched Brisbane vs hawthorn and realised something. Daniel Rich, Mitch Robinson, Dane zorko, Dane beams, Alan Christensen, Lewis Taylor, Luke hodge even Charlie Cameron is 23.
They are playing kids with much more accomplished senior players who actually bring something to the team besides experience.
This is why we are struggling. We hope our kids will be better off for it, but but we are running them around with Cameron o Shea, Sam kerridge, and whilst we have some handy types they aren't blisteringly fast or skilled enough or strong enough or classy enough to compete and carry the load for kids around them.
EB, do you think the players or Richardson is the bigger problem ? He doesn't inspire much confidence in me tbh.
Richardson is a good assistant.........not inventive or hard enough IMO, see him at Bunnings a lot, bit of a DIYer like me, talks to the punters
and is a nice bloke. Clarkson would probably tell them to feck off and leave him alone.....
Saints need a new recruiter and a new coach...I think Richardson will be fired at seasons end..
Saints lack leadership...Geary and Jack Stevens doesnt cut it...they need a player like Hodge for a couple of season to direct traffic on the field.
If Josh Kennedy from the Swans retired he might be a good get for a year or two and then coach as an assistant......
Luke Livingston's...
It's a problem we'll hopefully be able to stop after this lot.
I watched Brisbane vs hawthorn and realised something. Daniel Rich, Mitch Robinson, Dane zorko, Dane beams, Alan Christensen, Lewis Taylor, Luke hodge even Charlie Cameron is 23.
They are playing kids with much more accomplished senior players who actually bring something to the team besides experience.
This is why we are struggling. We hope our kids will be better off for it, but but we are running them around with Cameron o Shea, Sam kerridge, and whilst we have some handy types they aren't blisteringly fast or skilled enough or strong enough or classy enough to compete and carry the load for kids around them.
Correct....what do we do to fix it?
Richardson is a good assistant.........not inventive or hard enough IMO, see him at Bunnings a lot, bit of a DIYer like me, talks to the punters
and is a nice bloke. Clarkson would probably tell them to feck off and leave him alone.....
Saints need a new recruiter and a new coach...I think Richardson will be fired at seasons end..
Saints lack leadership...Geary and Jack Stevens doesnt cut it...they need a player like Hodge for a couple of season to direct traffic on the field.
If Josh Kennedy from the Swans retired he might be a good get for a year or two and then coach as an assistant......
Thanks Elwood.
Luke Livingston's...
It's a problem we'll hopefully be able to stop after this lot.
I watched Brisbane vs hawthorn and realised something. Daniel Rich, Mitch Robinson, Dane zorko, Dane beams, Alan Christensen, Lewis Taylor, Luke hodge even Charlie Cameron is 23.
They are playing kids with much more accomplished senior players who actually bring something to the team besides experience.
This is why we are struggling. We hope our kids will be better off for it, but but we are running them around with Cameron o Shea, Sam kerridge, and whilst we have some handy types they aren't blisteringly fast or skilled enough or strong enough or classy enough to compete and carry the load for kids around them.
Yep... and that's the problem!
We have gone overboard on the rebuild and left ourselves lacking in that mid age range of players.
It's not irretrievable and Liddle actually mentioned it in an interview last week.
We've been to the draft three times
Our emphasis this year will now shift to acquiring some quality mid-age range players (uncontracted and free agency)
They are playing kids with much more accomplished senior players who actually bring something to the team besides experience.
Me and Lods have been banging on about this for ages, we've not enough structure in place for kids to grow on!
We've taken our green shoots and thrown them into a field full of weeds!
Lions have kids surrounded by experience!
Play our kids too long surrounded by bad influences, and they'll develop bad habits that you cannot fix!
Bad habits are so hard to fix, learn something the right way from the start and it becomes a good habit!
Correct....what do we do to fix it?
My fear is that we can't fix it with this lot, and we have to play the wait and see game.
We heard a lot about billy hartung and his supposed character issues but have a look at where we are currently struggling (outside run) and explain to me why we didn't look at him...
We need to get a couple of cast off's IMHO. Blokes who are surplus to requirements but would walk up start in our team.
We need bulldozers, like Kennedy/Hannaberry/Rohan from the Swans, would bring a bit of Blood spirit as well
It's not irretrievable and Liddle actually mentioned it in an interview last week.
We've been to the draft three times
Our emphasis this year will now shift to acquiring some quality mid-age range players (uncontracted and free agency)
I heard that as well, but has Liddle killed some of the teams momentum public stating this, reading between the lines it means a couple of the kids will get the chop.
Rookie CEO mistake?
FWIW, for the average age profile to change positively he must mean some younger kids being replaced by mid-career types, or else we would actually make the list even younger!
Oh and we need time.
This rebuild has two elements to it.
1. Lay a foundation to do the next rebuild off.
2. Transition from the old players to the new.
We have checked the first box and the second box is a work in progress but you can see the baton has been passed in a few positions already (cripps, fisher, Docherty, Charlie, Marchbank) and the rest will happen gradually. The third box will be to start looking at how we get better and assist our new blood.
The next step is to get a couple more Matthew Wright types into the club. One for the midfield and one for half back.
Sorry Thry but Kerrige, Mullet, O'Shae etc are castoff's, we need proven class willing to take on a challenge. Heard Benji Marshall talk this morning, he bought into this exact philosophy at Penrith (I think), surely we can convince ($$$$) a couple of hard ar$e bas#@$ds out there to cut Crippa some slack, he is standing alone at the moment...
My fear is that we can't fix it with this lot, and we have to play the wait and see game.
We heard a lot about billy hartung and his supposed character issues but have a look at where we are currently struggling (outside run) and explain to me why we didn't look at him...
We need to get a couple of cast off's IMHO. Blokes who are surplus to requirements but would walk up start in our team.
They need to be Josh Caddy quality type castoffs though...not more Mullets, OSheas...
Hartung is suited to North who have great inside players like Cunnington, Ziebell, Jacobs, Higgins etc but who need some run on the outside......wouldnt have suited us IMO as he is a poor contester like Mullet...
Sooo, we haven't created a suitable environment yet to foster a rebuild successfully. We need more GOOD mature players, especially big mids! Go for it SOS!
They need to be Josh Caddy quality type castoffs though...not more Mullets, OSheas...
Hartung is suited to North who have great inside players like Cunnington, Ziebell, Jacobs, Higgins etc but who need some run on the outside......wouldnt have suited us IMO as he is a poor contester like Mullet...
Easy to talk about, but there are no real options coming out of contract this year that would suit, most are outside types. So that means we have to offer up something to lever out a player who is currently under contract.
What / Who would we offer?
I wouldn't hesitate to offer the likely number one pick coming our way
I wouldn't hesitate to offer the likely number one pick coming our way
Offering a pick doesn't deliver certainty to a team releasing a contracted player, you'd have to trade someone and clubs will be interested in our youth!
So the Curnow Brothers are worth 22 goals?
Call me old fashioned but I reckon 10-12 of the Dess goals came from over the back goals that's why their conversion rate was so high....when I played A grade amo footy in the 80/90's I played back 6 and our coach would be livid if a goal came without a man playing back on the line...and that was not without a spare back like they play now...Sure modern footy requires pushing up and pressing but reckon that have would have saved 5-6 of those easy goals....maybe showing my age but the old goaltender might have worked today!!!!!
If they back their recruiters then I would disagree, it is the number one pick after all. I would offer it to the Swans for Hannaberry and their 2nd rounder.
Sooo, we haven't created a suitable environment yet to foster a rebuild successfully. We need more GOOD mature players, especially big mids! Go for it SOS!
SOS did well for GWS getting Callan Ward......needs to do the same for us and get a player of that ilk and age..
I wouldn't hesitate to offer the likely number one pick coming our way
I'd only trade that for Dylan Shiel........or similar...
I'd only trade that for Dylan Shiel........or similar...
EB, I thought Shiel was pretty much an outside mid ?
We should have learned our lesson, we paid plenty for Judd and it didn't get us past week two of the finals.
One player won't do it for us.
Last week they tackled with intensity, hunted the players.
Today they just ran behind their players all dat - is that just youth/not fit enough to back up from Last week?
What was Lang like today?
Another frustrating aspect was we could not deal with the wet yet they had no problem - is that a skill issue?
Don’t see how we will progress unless it is merely to just wait for Doch, Marchbank etc to return. Maybe it will turn around quickly?
Until then, the players need to bust their arses!
If they back their recruiters then I would disagree, it is the number one pick after all. I would offer it to the Swans for Hannaberry and their 2nd rounder.
I like Hannebery, but I would not swap him plus change for a No1 pick. He has one of those bodies that have prematurely aged because of that rugged, crash and bash style that he plays. He will carry a bigger load in our team than the Swans, which worries me tbh.
Anthony Miles needs to be our Kane Lambert. He is far too good for VFL but can’t get a look in at Richmond. Should be there for the taking.
They need to be Josh Caddy quality type castoffs though...not more Mullets, OSheas...
Hartung is suited to North who have great inside players like Cunnington, Ziebell, Jacobs, Higgins etc but who need some run on the outside......wouldnt have suited us IMO as he is a poor contester like Mullet...
Matthew Wright types will do.
Blue collar, roll the sleeves up and perform well every week without costing the world.
A bit of breakaway speed would be good too. Is Pickett close to a return yet??
Anthony Miles needs to be our Kane Lambert. He is far too good for VFL but can’t get a look in at Richmond. Should be there for the taking.
I think I read Brandon Ellis is also playing VFL, but could be wrong.
EB, I thought Shiel was pretty much an outside mid ?
Paul...Can get his own footy and has elite disposal...I'd also be hooking into Tim Taranto as well...ex Vic kid and might want out....
and...Mitch Robinson....aged 28 but the Lions are holding out on signing him, wants 2 years,,,,had 20 contested possies vs GWS last week, 3 years of Mitch to look after Dow, Obrien etc.....
Paul...Can get his own footy and has elite disposal...I'd also be hooking into Tim Taranto as well...ex Vic kid and might want out....
and...Mitch Robinson....aged 28 but the Lions are holding out on signing him, wants 2 years,,,,had 20 contested possies vs GWS last week, 3 years of Mitch to look after Dow, Obrien etc.....
EB, I always had Shiel pegged as an outside type..................
Mitch Robinson ? That name sounds familiar..............I doubt he'd come back to us after being booted, whether justified or not.
EB, I always had Shiel pegged as an outside type..................
Yes I agree, Shiel doesn't strike me as a prime time inside mid, he's getting plenty of football and some CP's, but that is a bit like saying the second string guys at Geelong who get CPs next to Danger, Selwood or YAblett are inside mids.
Also Shiel is 182cm, I think we need someone who is in the 190cm class.
Shiel is a very serious upgrade on almost all of our players!
Shiel is a very serious upgrade on almost all of our players!
We are not arguing about Shiel's quality, the point some of us are making is Shiel is more outside mid, will cost plenty, and we have types who should be outside mids already. If we are going to pay big dollars or get involved in costly trades, it must be either another big bodied inside mid to give Cripps a chop out, or the KPF.
Even the journos at the BB presser, and most of them are dead-set hacks, were switched onto the cost of having Cripps go it alone too long!
FWIW, I doubt with the way we use the ball that we could attract a mature KPF of any value at the moment, it would be like volunteering to enter the desert! When they start sounding wise, you know you've got a real obvious problem!
We should have learned our lesson, we paid plenty for Judd and it didn't get us past week two of the finals.
One player won't do it for us.
That's because the bottom of our side was crap. Difference is this time we are adding cream to good youngsters, not crap.
I'll take 2nd week of the finals...lol
Shiel wins enough of his own ball, we just need to bring in some quality. Problem is anyone of real quality is not going to come to a basket case
If they back their recruiters then I would disagree, it is the number one pick after all. I would offer it to the Swans for Hannaberry and their 2nd rounder.
No.1 pick I'd swap for two first rounders. Use one on a star trade, the other in the draft.
I think I read Brandon Ellis is also playing VFL, but could be wrong.
If the tigers continue their low injury toll, there's likely a couple of players getting impatient. I've been impressed with Taranto, and we've previously our interest in Hopper. Hopper would IMO be the perfect partner for Crippa and co.
I think the bloke we could get is De Goey, but our no d1ckheads policy probably prevents us recruiting real footballers.
Instead we'll probably trade for a middle distance runner who can follow instructions and speaks nicely to the media.
De Goey has been going well as a forward, but we desperately need hard bodied mids
DeGoey's currency has gone up. Some say he'd attract just short of a mill! He'd be a good get but I suspect he'll resign. I think he was drafted as a mid. Has gone fwd to fill the void left by the likes of Fasolo Elliot etc.
I think the bloke we could get is De Goey, but our no d1ckheads policy probably prevents us recruiting real footballers.
Instead we'll probably trade for a middle distance runner who can follow instructions and speaks nicely to the media.
Yes please. Was keen on Sloane for years, not anymore. DeGoey is blood good tuff footballer, I suspect he will stay at the Pies though.
Apologies, haven't seen the game yet...kids....
Did Gawn monster and smash Kreuzer - was that the start of thr rot?
Apologies, haven't seen the game yet...kids....
Did Gawn monster and smash Kreuzer - was that the start of thr rot?
Lamb was probably the only bloke who won his contest all day.
Tells you everything you need to know.
Get a proper coach and proper recruiting agent and we'll get better. Quickly.
In 2013, Melbourne finished 17th on the ladder with 2 wins. We finished 9th with 11 wins. Compare the recruitment and player development of the 2 clubs in the following period. Melbourne miles ahead. We've had so many wasted years in the past 20. As a 35 year member, makes me sick.
We just don't have the big bodies apart from Cripps.
The rest of our midfielders were brushed aside like the lightweights they are.
Graham definitely one of our better players - I hope to see him get a few more games.
Clearly Melbourne didn't respect women today
If the tigers continue their low injury toll, there's likely a couple of players getting impatient. I've been impressed with Taranto, and we've previously our interest in Hopper. Hopper would IMO be the perfect partner for Crippa and co.
Our very own Miss Maven was keen on Taranto pre draft. I've not seen him play at all since he was drafted, but somehow I doubt the Giants would let him go, and certainly not cheaply. No 2 pick I believe, and certainly looks a good size.
The only way we are going to acquire players is a truckload of cash and pick one in the PS draft.
Our very own Miss Maven was keen on Taranto pre draft. I've not seen him play at all since he was drafted, but somehow I doubt the Giants would let him go, and certainly not cheaply. No 2 pick I believe, and certainly looks a good size.
We have to get over our fascination with high draft picks.
Smedts was a first round pick, Plowman went at 3, Pickett at 4, Jaksch, Sumner and Wiley were all high picks as well.
Other clubs cut their losses and we pick up the pieces.
SOS did well for GWS getting Callan Ward......needs to do the same for us and get a player of that ilk and age..
Right now we need 2 x Callan Wards.
Hopefully Kennedy, when fit, is one of them, but we desperately need another.
I think Kerridge is a very limited footballer, but why he wasn't on the ball in place of one of those kids is staggering.
All he has is body strength and attack on the ball so it should have been utilised.
Been saying it all year he needs a rest during games but everytime he goes out of the midfield other teams just cash in and dominate us...
We need that Ben Cunnington strong body workhorse who can take over the grunt work and farm the ball out to Dow, Obrien etc.....
Kennedy was meant to be that player but looks busted up after round one vs tigers.....not sure why he has been played injured, its just another woeful piece of off field work by our brains trust..
Isn’t ed curnow the big bodied mid we need. Tackle machine, takes the pressure off a little from Cripps. ?
We have to get over our fascination with high draft picks.
Smedts was a first round pick, Plowman went at 3, Pickett at 4, Jaksch, Sumner and Wiley were all high picks as well.
Other clubs cut their losses and we pick up the pieces.
I don't dispute that, but we have a malaise that affects the entire club. We've tried 1001 coaches, we have more 1st rounders than GWS (and have had over the last 10 years), we've had expensive messiahs, dirt cheap rookie rejects etc., and we are still in a fug - both mens teams and both womens teams are terrible.
Turning this around requires a massive effort from the whole club - no point whining about Bolton, or Fraser or Murphy etc. One or two or three people won't fix this.
I don't dispute that, but we have a malaise that affects the entire club. We've tried 1001 coaches, we have more 1st rounders than GWS (and have had over the last 10 years), we've had expensive messiahs, dirt cheap rookie rejects etc., and we are still in a fug - both mens teams and both womens teams are terrible.
Turning this around requires a massive effort from the whole club - no point whining about Bolton, or Fraser or Murphy etc. One or two or three people won't fix this.
We need to identify truely tough characters and get them leading the club out of this hole.
We don't need thugs, just mentally tough people that will not back down.
Our captain is the weakest captain in the competition.
Start this process today. Make Cripps skipper.
Make Ed Curnow vice captain.
Any player that doesn't commit their body to the contest plays two's.
Make Liam Jones accountable for his man!!! First and foremost he has to beat his direct opponent before trying to leap over packs, and if he does leave his man he MUST impact the contest.
The one thing any team can give is effort. We need to start by become the best tackling team in the competition.
I don't mind if we get beaten but don't get smashed like yesterday.
We also need to start hurting opposition players when we tackle and bump. We are simply too nice. Richmond tackle and bump with intent every time.
Above post x1000. Like.
I don't dispute that, but we have a malaise that affects the entire club. We've tried 1001 coaches, we have more 1st rounders than GWS (and have had over the last 10 years), we've had expensive messiahs, dirt cheap rookie rejects etc., and we are still in a fug - both mens teams and both womens teams are terrible.
Turning this around requires a massive effort from the whole club - no point whining about Bolton, or Fraser or Murphy etc. One or two or three people won't fix this.
The key is unity...but you only get that if there is a belief, by all, that the path you're on is the correct one.
And the key to that is a measurable or obvious progress in terms of individuals and the team.
Our problem at the moment is that seems to change week by week.
People want to believe and they'll grasp at the simplest positive sign (e.g a win over Essendon).
But results like yesterday are "one step, forward two back".
A concerning thing was that at three quarter time yesterday Bolton was fired up and gave them an absolute blast according to reports.
The players response was an insipid last quarter.
Supporters are one concern, but in the big scheme of things they're not the dominant factor in determining the on-field success of a football club.
Unity within the playing group is the important one.
Now there may have been numerous reasons for the lack of response
-the distractions of last week and the absence of the Curnows which is very important structurally.
-the injury toll
-young bodies just overwhelmed because of an excessive workload.
But the effort just was not there... and more importantly from Bolton's 3/4 response, instructions weren't being followed and that's something that needs to be looked at.
I don't dispute that, but we have a malaise that affects the entire club. We've tried 1001 coaches, we have more 1st rounders than GWS (and have had over the last 10 years), we've had expensive messiahs, dirt cheap rookie rejects etc., and we are still in a fug - both mens teams and both womens teams are terrible.
Turning this around requires a massive effort from the whole club - no point whining about Bolton, or Fraser or Murphy etc. One or two or three people won't fix this.
I think that we should look at our entire coaching team, apart from Stanton they've been too long out of the game in my opinion, but as you suggest that's only part of a bigger picture.
I don't know what the answer is but I am sick of Carlton being a crap team. I just want to know when things are going to get better.
Paul...Can get his own footy and has elite disposal...I'd also be hooking into Tim Taranto as well...ex Vic kid and might want out....
and...Mitch Robinson....aged 28 but the Lions are holding out on signing him, wants 2 years,,,,had 20 contested possies vs GWS last week, 3 years of Mitch to look after Dow, Obrien etc.....
Now you're talkin'.
@ Lods
I'm not sure what targets BB sets for the players to achieve Lods but if anyone/any group do not believe the targets set for them are realistic or achievable then faith/belief is lost and performance starts to fall away. No one likes bashing their head against what seems like a brick wall. Realistic and achievable target setting, other than the obvious one of winning the game, is vital and these targets need to be the right ones during this period where winning games is elusive. From all we've heard about BB I'm sure he is right across all of this but this week we certainly looked very wobbly and lost and he certainly vented his frustration.
@ Lods
I'm not sure what targets BB sets for the players to achieve Lods but if anyone/any group do not believe the targets set for them are realistic or achievable then faith/belief is lost and performance starts to fall away. No one likes bashing their head against what seems like a brick wall. Realistic and achievable target setting, other than the obvious one of winning the game, is vital and these targets need to be the right ones during this period where winning games is elusive. From all we've heard about BB I'm sure he is right across all of this but this week we certainly looked very wobbly and lost and he certainly vented his frustration.
It's hard to get a handle on it.
We were reasonably good last week (was that just the opposition?) and terrible this week.
At three quarter time the game was lost and it pretty much was an unachievable target.
At that point you'd hope there would have been a reset..."win the quarter, keep it under a hundred".
Disappointing that there didn't seem to be a response...but in the end they were just overwhelmed.
It's hard to get a handle on it.
We were reasonably good last week (was that just the opposition?) and terrible this week.
At three quarter time the game was lost and it pretty much was an unachievable target.
At that point you'd hope there would have been a reset..."win the quarter, keep it under a hundred".
Disappointing that there didn't seem to be a response...but in the end they were just overwhelmed.
Just about summed us up - overwhelmed both physically and mentally from what I could see.
We need a complete reset. We should demand a lot more as it is nearing crisis point. Supporters want belief, commitment and the skill basics. Can't sign on to a program where one doesn't exist.
We need to walk tall, not crawl.
Spare 20 minutes so, just for the heck of it, did some research.
Roughly, our past 5-6 years, looks like this:
3 Presidents. 3 CEOs. 3 Senior Coaches, umpteen assistant coaches. Recruiting staff turnovers... Board turnover and still a divided Board.
Capable players traded out out/sacked: E Betts, J Garlett, B Gibbs, L Henderson, J Laidler, M Robinson, Z Tuohy, J Waite & C Yarran (potential unrealised).
Capable (I know that's subjective) blokes retired/sacked: D Armfield, A Carrazzo, A Everitt, R Houlihan, M Jamison, A Joseph, C Judd, B McLean, H Scotland, B Thornton, A Walker & S White (regardless of whether we all agree that some of these blokes were a loss... most if not all would be in our best 28).
Non-hackers/not in best 28: D Viojo-Rainbow, B Boekhorst, K Jaksch, J Tutt, M Whiley, C Smith, J Foster, M Dick, L Sumner, D Gorringe, B Smedts, R Palmer, R O'Keefe, M Carter, N Duigan, S Kerridge, T Bell, C Wood, J Russell, K Lucas, M Watson, R Warnock, A Collins, P Bower, M Austin, S Hampson, P McCarthy, N Graham, J Lamb, A Mullett, J. Cachia, G Giles, N Holman, L Mitchell, A McInnes, M Davies, R Kerr, D Ellard, C O'Shea, D Buckley, J Bootsma, T Menzel & T Temay.
MIA this year (on or off the field) through poor or indifferent form, or injury: J Silvagni, M Murphy, SPS, M Kennedy, S Docherty, Marchbank, Weitering, Cuningham, Williamson, Pickett, Plowman, Phillips, Byrne, ACOS and Casboult.
Mmm, okay, think I'll go outside and find a strong tree, length of rope and chair.
:(
I think that we should look at our entire coaching team, apart from Stanton they've been too long out of the game in my opinion, but as you suggest that's only part of a bigger picture.
Teague is there too. He's been coaching ever since he retired. Reckon he goes ok. Surprised he hasn't tried for a senior gig, especially after his efforts with the Bullants.
We need to identify truely tough characters and get them leading the club out of this hole.
We don't need thugs, just mentally tough people that will not back down.
Our captain is the weakest captain in the competition.
Start this process today. Make Cripps skipper.
Make Ed Curnow vice captain.
Any player that doesn't commit their body to the contest plays two's.
Make Liam Jones accountable for his man!!! First and foremost he has to beat his direct opponent before trying to leap over packs, and if he does leave his man he MUST impact the contest.
The one thing any team can give is effort. We need to start by become the best tackling team in the competition.
I don't mind if we get beaten but don't get smashed like yesterday.
We also need to start hurting opposition players when we tackle and bump. We are simply too nice. Richmond tackle and bump with intent every time.
I'm too wussy to be endorsing tackling to hurt. The game is played by big, strong, fit men, and given the nature of the sport, no amount / absence of malicious intent and no amount of mucking around with the rules will ever change the overtly physical nature of the contest. But I accept I'm in the minority on this one, and so I'll leave it at that. Incidentally, there was a story going around during the Ratten era that at a certain point in his tenure, he was instructing the players to tackle to hurt at training - one player's name was mentioned as objecting to this, and that was Yarran. Make of that what you will.
The rest of what you write may well be true, but what I'm talking about is much bigger than changing captains or making Jones accountable. It's almost as though an invisible, negative force field exists around the club that turns everything to sh1t. I really cannot figure it out.
Teague is there too. He's been coaching ever since he retired. Reckon he goes ok. Surprised he hasn't tried for a senior gig, especially after his efforts with the Bullants.
I'd like to see a few recently retired players who were in the top bracket when they played.
Bob Murphy, Steve Johnson, Nick Riewoldt, Dane Swan, Sam Mitchell, that type,.
Stanton is the closest we've got but no one would consider him a hard at it midfielder or a top liner.
Spare 20 minutes so, just for the heck of it, did some research.
Roughly, our past 5-6 years, looks like this:
3 Presidents. 3 CEOs. 3 Senior Coaches, umpteen assistant coaches. Recruiting staff turnovers... Board turnover and still a divided Board.
Capable players traded out out/sacked: E Betts, J Garlett, B Gibbs, L Henderson, J Laidler, M Robinson, Z Tuohy, J Waite & C Yarran (potential unrealised).
Capable (I know that's subjective) blokes retired/sacked: D Armfield, A Carrazzo, A Everitt, R Houlihan, M Jamison, A Joseph, C Judd, B McLean, H Scotland, B Thornton, A Walker & S White (regardless of whether we all agree that some of these blokes were a loss... most if not all would be in our best 28).
Non-hackers/not in best 28: D Viojo-Rainbow, B Boekhorst, K Jaksch, J Tutt, M Whiley, C Smith, J Foster, M Dick, L Sumner, D Gorringe, B Smedts, R Palmer, R O'Keefe, M Carter, N Duigan, S Kerridge, T Bell, C Wood, J Russell, K Lucas, M Watson, R Warnock, A Collins, P Bower, M Austin, S Hampson, P McCarthy, N Graham, J Lamb, A Mullett, J. Cachia, G Giles, N Holman, L Mitchell, A McInnes, M Davies, R Kerr, D Ellard, C O'Shea, D Buckley, J Bootsma, T Menzel & T Temay.
MIA this year (on or off the field) through poor or indifferent form, or injury: J Silvagni, M Murphy, SPS, M Kennedy, S Docherty, Marchbank, Weitering, Cuningham, Williamson, Pickett, Plowman, Phillips, Byrne, ACOS and Casboult.
Mmm, okay, think I'll go outside and find a strong tree, length of rope and chair.
:(
These blokes in bold still play for us....
Ultimately, none of this is all that concerning.
Its the known path we must continue walking down, and all we can control is setting the appropriate standards.
The key is unity...but you only get that if there is a belief, by all, that the path you're on is the correct one.
And the key to that is a measurable or obvious progress in terms of individuals and the team.
Our problem at the moment is that seems to change week by week.
People want to believe and they'll grasp at the simplest positive sign (e.g a win over Essendon).
But results like yesterday are "one step, forward two back".
A concerning thing was that at three quarter time yesterday Bolton was fired up and gave them an absolute blast according to reports.
The players response was an insipid last quarter.
Supporters are one concern, but in the big scheme of things they're not the dominant factor in determining the on-field success of a football club.
Unity within the playing group is the important one.
Now there may have been numerous reasons for the lack of response
-the distractions of last week and the absence of the Curnows which is very important structurally.
-the injury toll
-young bodies just overwhelmed because of an excessive workload.
But the effort just was not there... and more importantly from Bolton's 3/4 response, instructions weren't being followed and that's something that needs to be looked at.
Put simply lods, too much left to too few, an old story for us. And the too few eventually get injured / knackered / fed up, and the end result is what we saw yesterday.
These blokes in bold still play for us....
Ultimately, none of this is all that concerning.
Its the known path we must continue walking down, and all we can control is setting the appropriate standards.
...and they're not up to scratch, and they took the field yesterday.
The point of the exercise was to demonstrate, in part, how we got to this diabolical place of abject failure - many poor decisions, and the jury is still out on whether the decisions of the past 2-3 years are any better... but hope remains, though dimming.
I'm too wussy to be endorsing tackling to hurt. The game is played by big, strong, fit men, and given the nature of the sport, no amount / absence of malicious intent and no amount of mucking around with the rules will ever change the overtly physical nature of the contest. But I accept I'm in the minority on this one, and so I'll leave it at that. Incidentally, there was a story going around during the Ratten era that at a certain point in his tenure, he was instructing the players to tackle to hurt at training - one player's name was mentioned as objecting to this, and that was Yarran. Make of that what you will.
The rest of what you write may well be true, but what I'm talking about is much bigger than changing captains or making Jones accountable. It's almost as though an invisible, negative force field exists around the club that turns everything to sh1t. I really cannot figure it out.
That would probably be something to do with the fact that we have been cr@p for the best part of 25 years and a losing culture has firmly taken a grip of the whole club. I wonder if we have anybody in the club in the strategic management and executive positions who really knows or understands what a successful club looks like from the inside? Is BB just yet another messiah, albeit in different robes? All very well to do resets but do we have a workable plan to move forward? I don't know but what I believe is that we first need a very strong framework of coaching staff and senior players in order to foster and develop our younger ones. Is it even possible to be successful in the AFL environment doing what we are doing, especially from the very low point that we started at? Maybe just maybe it comes down to patience and time? I'm unfortunately running out of both. :(
I'm too wussy to be endorsing tackling to hurt. The game is played by big, strong, fit men, and given the nature of the sport, no amount / absence of malicious intent and no amount of mucking around with the rules will ever change the overtly physical nature of the contest. But I accept I'm in the minority on this one, and so I'll leave it at that. Incidentally, there was a story going around during the Ratten era that at a certain point in his tenure, he was instructing the players to tackle to hurt at training - one player's name was mentioned as objecting to this, and that was Yarran. Make of that what you will.
The rest of what you write may well be true, but what I'm talking about is much bigger than changing captains or making Jones accountable. It's almost as though an invisible, negative force field exists around the club that turns everything to sh1t. I really cannot figure it out.
Yep it does.
We are weak as piss. Literally, and have been for years.
We papered over the cracks with Judd who was as tough as they come.
Now we are going to crucify Cripps in the same way we did Judd.
You are almost correct, the game is WON by big strong fit men.
We have thrown too many kids in at once. They need strong leaders to look after them and show them the way.
Jones is a small part of this. He is 6'5" or bigger, athletically as capable as anyone playing but just doesn't impact the contest enough.
When he does he looks great but if he gets a bag kicked on him every 2-3 weeks its pointless.
They will improve drastically with E Curnow back because he adds toughness, but why not put Kerridge in there to bash and crash. It's not like he has silky skills we need to protect.
That would probably be something to do with the fact that we have been cr@p for the best part of 25 years and a losing culture has firmly taken a grip of the whole club. I wonder if we have anybody in the club in the strategic management and executive positions who really knows or understands what a successful club looks like from the inside? Is BB just yet another messiah, albeit in different robes? All very well to do resets but do we have a workable plan to move forward? I don't know but what I believe is that we first need a very strong framework of coaching staff and senior players in order to foster and develop our younger ones. Is it even possible to be successful in the AFL environment doing what we are doing, especially from the very low point that we started at? Maybe just maybe it comes down to patience and time? I'm unfortunately running out of both. :(
I'M PRETTY SURE OUR CEO KNOWS WHAT SUCCESS LOOKS LIKE ON AND OFF THE FIELD.
They will improve drastically with E Curnow back because he adds toughness, but why not put Kerridge in there to bash and crash. It's not like he has silky skills we need to protect.
Maybe the answer to that question is because he is crape? By hand or foot he butchers the ball continually and they've decided he causes less damage holistically to the team when he's nowhere near the ball. The fact that we can't OR wont replace him, along with O'Shea, Mullett, Graham, etc. etc. with someone from the two's is more depressing.
Maybe the answer to that question is because he is crape? By hand or foot he butchers the ball continually and they've decided he causes less damage holistically to the team when he's nowhere near the ball. The fact that we can't OR wont replace him, along with O'Shea, Mullett, Graham, etc. etc. with someone from the two's is more depressing.
I thought Kerridge started off OK on Sunday but by early 2Q he was back to his old self. He's not really someone to be canvassed as a solution to any of our problems - in fact he is one of our problems.
When I see half a dozen players run out in long sleeves, presumably because it's cold, that tells me that they're probably not of a mindset to endure the pain that's necessary to win. Think about that.
I'M PRETTY SURE OUR CEO KNOWS WHAT SUCCESS LOOKS LIKE ON AND OFF THE FIELD.
Hope he can bring those insights to us and is strong enough to make a positive difference in our environment then.
When I see half a dozen players run out in long sleeves, presumably because it's cold, that tells me that they're probably not of a mindset to endure the pain that's necessary to win. Think about that.
Tell that to SOS.... ::)
I thought Kerridge started off OK on Sunday but by early 2Q he was back to his old self. He's not really someone to be canvassed as a solution to any of out problems - in fact he is one of our problems.
Kerridge can win the football against any opponent, it's using it when he gets it that is his big problem. Give him a Ed Curnow inside mid role against the Cats and free up Ed do some outside distribution.
Kerridge is a fumbler.
Kerridge is a bit part mid who kicked a couple of bags of five goals for a talented Crows team but thats about his only claim to fame...I'd be playing kids like Cuningham, Polson ahead of him and delisting him at years end.....
All those problems occur on the outside, put him in the guts in a negating role and tell him his career depends on matching Geelong physically. He's more than capable.
Hope he can bring those insights to us and is strong enough to make a positive difference in our environment then.
The coach too. He, if we forget, has been very successful and cone out of the best coaching school we have ever seen at league level.
The press conference was good from Bolton. There was none of the forget about it and move on stuff. He said the players must dwell on this loss and learn from it. Its the essence if team sport turn around. Stand fast board. Bolton is the coach we need and have.
When I see half a dozen players run out in long sleeves, presumably because it's cold, that tells me that they're probably not of a mindset to endure the pain that's necessary to win. Think about that.
Strange claim. Skinny Lappin, Kade Simpson, SOS as previously mentioned. This gets into the realm of players being girls because they have man buns and nice haircuts.
Kerridge is a bit part mid who kicked a couple of bags of five goals for a talented Crows team but thats about his only claim to fame...I'd be playing kids like Cuningham, Polson ahead of him and delisting him at years end.....
Well Cunningham would certainly be a good swap for Kerridge if he's available and fit this week.
The coach too. He, if we forget, has been very successful and cone out of the best coaching school we have ever seen at league level.
The press conference was good from Bolton. There was none of the forget about it and move on stuff. He said the players must dwell on this loss and learn from it. Its the essence if team sport turn around. Stand fast board. Bolton is the coach we need and have.
No doubt they have good resumes - it's making all that work at CFC where the big challenges lie for them. I'm praying they can, believe me! We've chewed up and spat out a lot of good people over the years.
All those problems occur on the outside, put him in the guts in a negating role and tell him his career depends on matching Geelong physically. He's more than capable.
Kerridge isnt as good as the Cats second stringers like Duncan, Guthrie, Menegola........
If you look at our onballers two things stand out.....very slow and poor kicking.......
We wont get anywhere negating either IMO....Ed is enough, we need more creative players who can help us score.....
All those problems occur on the outside, put him in the guts in a negating role and tell him his career depends on matching Geelong physically. He's more than capable.
I don't think that he is.
He fumbles under pressure and has a copybook kicking action but sprays the ball around, I don't think that he has the mental toughness to perform consistently at the top level.
Yep it does.
We are weak as piss. Literally, and have been for years.
We papered over the cracks with Judd who was as tough as they come.
Now we are going to crucify Cripps in the same way we did Judd.
You are almost correct, the game is WON by big strong fit men.
We have thrown too many kids in at once. They need strong leaders to look after them and show them the way.
Jones is a small part of this. He is 6'5" or bigger, athletically as capable as anyone playing but just doesn't impact the contest enough.
When he does he looks great but if he gets a bag kicked on him every 2-3 weeks its pointless.
They will improve drastically with E Curnow back because he adds toughness, but why not put Kerridge in there to bash and crash. It's not like he has silky skills we need to protect.
I'm not sure that Judd was as tough as they come, but that's a discussion for another time.
I think Jones has no brains and really has to be told where to run, where to stand etc. Without Docherty he makes too many bad decisions.
We need 100 pieces to complete the CFC jigsaw puzzle. The points you make are valid, but they are only 3 or 4 of those pieces.
In round 4 we had both Curnows, Kennedy, Casboult, Cripps was captain.... and you know what happened in that game. I'm not in any way blaming those named individuals, merely pointing out that either our problems are extremely deep, or that we are much earlier into the rebuild than anyone imagined.
Kerridge isnt as good as the Cats second stringers like Duncan, Guthrie, Menegola........
If you look at our onballers two things stand out.....very slow and poor kicking.......
We wont get anywhere negating either IMO....Ed is enough, we need more creative players who can help us score.....
Fresh out of those though EB. So what do we do? Persist with those who have failed already or try other options?
Kerridge isnt as good as the Cats second stringers like Duncan, Guthrie, Menegola........
If you look at our onballers two things stand out.....very slow and poor kicking.......
We wont get anywhere negating either IMO....Ed is enough, we need more creative players who can help us score.....
Don't forget Horlin-Smith! ;)
Doesn't the old saying apply, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result!
I recall a couple of years ago Ed being freed up against GC and doing OK, he's in a rich vein of form at the moment and now is as good a chance as he'll ever get!
I don't think that he is.
He fumbles under pressure and has a copybook kicking action but sprays the ball around, I don't think that he has the mental toughness to perform consistently at the top level.
Kerridge's persistence seems to fly in the face of any suggestion than he lacks mental toughness, maybe he lacks agility. But it's clear to me that more than anything else it's polish that he lacks, not desire, drive or persistence. Give him a role, make sure he accepts it as his fate and his future, that removes the need for polish.
Kerridge is a bit part mid who kicked a couple of bags of five goals for a talented Crows team but thats about his only claim to fame...I'd be playing kids like Cuningham, Polson ahead of him and delisting him at years end.....
Agree but or these kids will get smashed off the park.
We need mature bodies around the contest.
Makes no sense playing him on a wing or flank.
Agree but or these kids will get smashed off the park.
We need mature bodies around the contest.
Makes no sense playing him on a wing or flank.
Agreed, if Kerridge is in, he needs to be in the heat!
Agree but or these kids will get smashed off the park.
We need mature bodies around the contest.
Makes no sense playing him on a wing or flank.
Agreed, if Kerridge is in, he needs to be in the heat!
Agree with both gents, but would prefer he does a Crippa and focuses more on hand balling and less on kicking - will get himself and the team into less trouble
While the likes of Essendon, Collingwood, Richmond etc have vile uncouth supporters, Melbourne has pompous ar$ehole$. They have not had a decent sniff since 1964, had 26 resets or rebuilds in that time with no silverware to show for it (I've seen 8 premierships in that time, Buddy!). I remember a wanker back in Lance's day say that they'll win 5 flags before we win our next because we play fat slobs! 'Go Dees!!' Yeh good luck, they'll build up to let down again...nothing surer!
Agree but or these kids will get smashed off the park.
We need mature bodies around the contest.
Makes no sense playing him on a wing or flank.
I'm looking for education and a couple of kids to stand up for the future...I expect to be smashed off the park either way...
I agree Kerridge will provide more cover but I'm over looking for respectable losses or saving some kids from a bruise or two.....
Agree with both gents, but would prefer he does a Crippa and focuses more on hand balling and less on kicking - will get himself and the team into less trouble
That is exactly what I am on about, if we let the opposition set Kerridge up as our distributor of the football, that is our fault not his!
These are the basics we do not do well, we are too robotic.
While the likes of Essendon, Collingwood, Richmond etc have vile uncouth supporters, Melbourne has pompous ar$ehole$. They have not had a decent sniff since 1964, had 26 resets or rebuilds in that time with no silverware to show for it (I've seen 8 premierships in that time, Buddy!). I remember a wanker back in Lance's day say that they'll win 5 flags before we win our next because we play fat slobs! 'Go Dees!!' Yeh good luck, they'll build up to let down again...nothing surer!
Yep they have plenty of them but we did encounter a couple of their vile uncouth types on Sunday as well. :))
I agree Kerridge will provide more cover but I'm over looking for respectable losses or saving some kids from a bruise or two.....
Bruises always get better, brains(minds) do not necessarily heal!
"Carlton draftee Lochie O'Brien also copped $2000 for rough conduct against Melbourne's Bayley Fritsch."
What the.......!?!?
"Carlton draftee Lochie O'Brien also copped $2000 for rough conduct against Melbourne's Bayley Fritsch."
What the.......!?!?
Yeah, obviously didn't hit him hard enough!
Yeah, obviously didn't hit him hard enough!
Dont even remember that incident :o
Fritsch is a handy player, what is it with teams who always get the same type of players...Fritsch is a Jeremy Howe clone who was a Russell Robertson type....
While the likes of Essendon, Collingwood, Richmond etc have vile uncouth supporters, Melbourne has pompous ar$ehole$. They have not had a decent sniff since 1964, had 26 resets or rebuilds in that time with no silverware to show for it (I've seen 8 premierships in that time, Buddy!). I remember a wanker back in Lance's day say that they'll win 5 flags before we win our next because we play fat slobs! 'Go Dees!!'Yeh good luck, they'll build up to let down again...nothing surer!
I'm sure plenty said the same about the Tigers in recent times. The Dees are not flag favourites, but they are up and about and if they can stay focussed and lose the flakiness, they will go deep in September IMO.
Every club has its share of wanker supporters.
While the likes of Essendon, Collingwood, Richmond etc have vile uncouth supporters, Melbourne has pompous ar$ehole$. They have not had a decent sniff since 1964, had 26 resets or rebuilds in that time with no silverware to show for it (I've seen 8 premierships in that time, Buddy!). I remember a wanker back in Lance's day say that they'll win 5 flags before we win our next because we play fat slobs! 'Go Dees!!' Yeh good luck, they'll build up to let down again...nothing surer!
Back in the 90s, I had an AFL membership and used to sit in the Elliott stand at PP as it had an area set aside for us. As AFL members, naturally we always sat with/amongst the opo AFL members and I can tell you, of all the teams supporters I sat with? Melb supporters were the worst by a long way. And the blue rinse hair brigade too old to go to Mt Buller on the weekends, were some of the worst. When they were winning, they were disgraceful towards us, when they were losing, they would eat their own like I have never witnessed since. The famous last game at PP vs Melb? They were so bad, I had to get up and leave early in the 3rd as I feared for what I was going to do to a few of them. True story.
They were so bad, I had to get up and leave early in the 3rd as I feared for what I was going to do to a few of them. True story.
My mate is a Handbaggers fan, lifelong supporter, always use to go to the footy. He was at "The G" watching the Handbaggers play the Dees, and every-time he barracked to loudly this grumpy old blue rinse Dees supporter behind him would poke him in the ribs with her umbrella. At halftime he complained to the police the did nothing. After the 3rd Qtr my mate lost it turn around and grab the umbrella and broke it in half before giving it back to her. He was frog marched out of "The G" and banned for life!
Hardly seems fair does it!
Lochie O'Brien gets $2000 for rough contact while Bernie Vince gets to jump off the ground and hit Daisy in the face with his shoulder!
Watch the video on this page from about the 25s mark!
https://dwo3ckksxlb0v.cloudfront.net/media/or/oe6FKoyYTY1/ca/gVeE8hmyTVt/as/ss3nYZTbgiI/wIgb_xt2SY3369rq_mbr_2000000_1526786663898.mp4
Vince is not even looking at the football!
When I see half a dozen players run out in long sleeves, presumably because it's cold, that tells me that they're probably not of a mindset to endure the pain that's necessary to win. Think about that.
Its amazing how perspective can change if people open their minds a little.
They might have worn long sleeves because they were cold, or perhaps there is a little more to it.
Bryce Gibbs wore long sleeves on Friday night when it bucketed down, and the commentary team were lauding his brains for thinking about the footy being easier to mark in the wet due to having long sleeves.
Unfortunately for us, that didnt quite pan out, but I think this comment is putting two and two together and coming up with 145.
Its amazing how perspective can change if people open their minds a little.
They might have worn long sleeves because they were cold, or perhaps there is a little more to it.
Bryce Gibbs wore long sleeves on Friday night when it bucketed down, and the commentary team were lauding his brains for thinking about the footy being easier to mark in the wet due to having long sleeves.
Unfortunately for us, that didnt quite pan out, but I think this comment is putting two and two together and coming up with 145.
It's interesting, I'm not sure about the materials or tech in the jumpers today, but back in my day long sleeve jumpers made you neither warmer nor better at marking. The only thing they guaranteed was that in the rain you'd be carrying around any extra kilo or two once they were soaked and covered in mud!
It's interesting, I'm not sure about the materials or tech in the jumpers today, but back in my day long sleeve jumpers made you neither warmer nor better at marking. The only thing they guaranteed was that in the rain you'd be carrying around any extra kilo or two once they were soaked and covered in mud!
I imagine what they are stating is true of marking a wet footy.
material would add friction to a leather ball making it much easier to catch than wet skin.
I imagine what they are stating is true of marking a wet footy.
material would add friction to a leather ball making it much easier to catch than wet skin.
Not really, I found once the material was soaked it stayed wet much longer, and held more water. As soon as the rain stopped you would see players pushing their sleeves up because having muddy arms was the best solution. I think it was the grit from the mud that was more beneficial.
But overall the worst thing you could do was be coated in liniment on a drizzly day, you might as well coat the footy in silicone spray.
Another reason some blokes wore long sleeves sometimes was to deal with chaffing or material burns under your armpits, it wasn't a big issue but it can become a distraction. I've read that these days players use those high tech undergarments for the very same reasons. Back in my day it was tighter shorts or jumper, or Vaseline! Capper started wearing those tiny shorts for the very same reason! Of course, back in those days some blokes also wore stockings in the wet, a very common practice at Federal, VFA or VFL level.
Material has changed significantly but it was always a no-brainer back in the days that you wore long sleeves in the wet.
Remember how heavy the old jumpers used to be when you took them off, it was like carrying around a bag of lead?
My son's kit absorbs no water at all, they come of the ground in the rain and underneath they are almost dry and the kit weighs nothing!
Some players used to wear two in the wet. LS inner and SS outer. I remember a filthy soaking wet muddy day at Princes Park and at the start of the second half, every player had fresh jumpers. Long sleeves were a definite advantage in the wet. When we went wool (1985 IIRC) they were even better
Someone on Facebook put up a side of players that didn't play on the weekend. While they were scratching a bit towards the end it was a certainly a good side, better than the one we put pout on the weekend.
That was the worst exhibition of coaching I've come across since the days of Pagan. I'm all for teaching and development but why go back to something they left us totally lost, confused and regularly thrashed.
It was easily the worst coaching performance since Bolton has come to the club.
[1] Our team was selected on the basis of nothing going wrong. That failed at the first centre bounce. Not having 2 rucks to play on one of the game's best was a mistake. Having to ruck Harry McKay was an embarrassment. There were others selection quandaries that worked about as well.
[2] We stuck with the same plan and the same players on the same opponents. We really needed to change things and we didn't.
[3] Our strategies were flawed to start with, as we did not make enough attempts at stopping their better players.
What do the guys in the box do? Other than sit? Nothing changed.
We selected a team to beat Essendon.
Not sure we did that on the weekend. ;)
Sure injury and suspension knocked us around but I think there are times (and games) this year when we'll pick to win if we think we have a chance.
If we don't think we're in with a chance then the emphasis will be on picking for development.
I'm sitting next to a campfire right now.... Please tell me that Vince was cited?
I'm sitting next to a campfire right now.... Please tell me that Vince was cited?
He got off. :-[ Not one of the AFL's best moments. Especially after last week.
FMD... It really matters what jumper you wear doesn't it?
FMD... It really matters what jumper you wear doesn't it?
As long as it is not ours.
We selected a team to beat Essendon.
Not sure we did that on the weekend. ;)
Sure injury and suspension knocked us around but I think there are times (and games) this year when we'll pick to win if we think we have a chance.
If we don't think we're in with a chance then the emphasis will be on picking for development.
At quarter time I though we were in with a sniff. Unfortunately it unravelled after that with our customary fade out. It's becoming a trend where we stop being competitive in periods and can't quite work out what went wrong.
Gerard Whateley on 360 made some interesting points on Carlton. He said that in the 3rd year of the rebuild, he can't see a style, structure or tactics that has developed..."just can't see it" he said. Hard to argue with that....
Remember how heavy the old jumpers used to be when you took them off, it was like carrying around a bag of lead?
My son's kit absorbs no water at all, they come of the ground in the rain and underneath they are almost dry and the kit weighs nothing!
It's interesting, I'm not sure about the materials or tech in the jumpers today, but back in my day long sleeve jumpers made you neither warmer nor better at marking. The only thing they guaranteed was that in the rain you'd be carrying around any extra kilo or two once they were soaked and covered in mud!
Make up your mind, do you support or oppose the wearing of long sleeve jumpers in the wet?
Are the jumpers heavier or lighter... ?
The original opinion offered was that the players wearing long sleeves were inadequate...
Interesting interview with Max Gawn...
""Kreuzer's played one of the best games against me. That scares me. I've always wanted to get one back on him. I rate Kreuzer as the number 1 guy to play."
Max Gawn with some high praise for a Blue #RSNBreakfastClub"
Make up your mind, do you support or oppose the wearing of long sleeve jumpers in the wet?
Are the jumpers heavier or lighter... ?
The original opinion offered was that the players wearing long sleeves were inadequate...
I was debating with Lods jumpers now versus back then, you need to read a whole thread before you comment.
The idea posted earlier that jumpers are a tell about a player's intent is rubbish, step in SOS or Hunter!
Interesting interview with Max Gawn...
""Kreuzer's played one of the best games against me. That scares me. I've always wanted to get one back on him. I rate Kreuzer as the number 1 guy to play."
Max Gawn with some high praise for a Blue #RSNBreakfastClub"
That's because taps mean nothing.
Some of the media had Gawn BoG, but the coaches only gave him 2 votes for 44 taps, they had Melksham BoG with 10 votes, followed by McDonald with 8.
We need to have a crack at getting McDonald out of Melbourne.
Interesting interview with Max Gawn...
""Kreuzer's played one of the best games against me. That scares me. I've always wanted to get one back on him. I rate Kreuzer as the number 1 guy to play."
Max Gawn with some high praise for a Blue #RSNBreakfastClub"
I would guess most ruckman in the comp would say that about playing against Kruze. Its because he cracks in all day be it in the air or on the ground. He gives 110% all day everyday. Its why I love it when the big Tractor is up and going. He and Crippa are our heartbeat.
That's because taps mean nothing.
Some of the media had Gawn BoG, but the coaches only gave him 2 votes for 44 taps, they had Melksham BoG with 10 votes, followed by McDonald with 8.
We need to have a crack at getting McDonald out of Melbourne.
No. we need to get more quality and experience into the midfield.
Think Shiel, Hopper, Sloane, Wines, Kelly, Gaff.
Two of them.Then Doc back up and running!
I would guess most ruckman in the comp would say that about playing against Kruze. Its because he cracks in all day be it in the air or on the ground. He gives 110% all day everyday. Its why I love it when the big Tractor is up and going. He and Crippa are our heartbeat.
It's because he is so mobile, and his 2nd or 3rd efforts are relentless and instantaneous. They get no break against him, ruck SpecialK with Phillips or Lobbe against Gawn and we'd win far more clearances because Gawn would get no respite. They are flat out keeping up with Kreuzer, and won't easily defeat Phillips.
It's no different to Wet Toast rucking Naitanui and Lycett, after their recent success against Nthmond you'll find more clubs doing this.
Solo rucks are a weak point that can be exploited, we know that from good experience.
It's because he is so mobile, and his 2nd or 3rd efforts are relentless and instantaneous. They get no break against him, ruck SpecialK with Phillips or Lobbe against Gawn and we'd win far more clearances because Gawn would get no respite. They are flat out keeping up with Kreuzer, and won't easily defeat Phillips.
It's no different to Wet Toast rucking Naitanui and Lycett, after their recent success against Nthmond you'll find more clubs doing this.
Solo rucks are a weak point that can be exploited, we know that from good experience.
Recent GF winners Richmond would argue they went with Nankervis and Grigg as their ruckman.......Bulldogs went with Roughead and a inexperienced very part time backup in Boyd...its what suits your gameplan IMO and there is no one size fits all approach. Kreuzer does best when he rucks 90% of the day and the 10% remaining can be filled in by Casboult, Harry Mckay, Rowe etc....
Some days you do need two rucks, say vs WC or a monster like Sandilands....but not all the time and its important not to be stuck with a player who can only ruck and has to be benched when not rucking.
Recent GF winners Richmond would argue they went with Nankervis and Grigg as their ruckman.......Bulldogs went with Roughead and a inexperienced very part time backup in Boyd...its what suits your gameplan IMO and there is no one size fits all approach. Kreuzer does best when he rucks 90% of the day and the 10% remaining can be filled in by Casboult, Harry Mckay, Rowe etc....
Some days you do need two rucks, say vs WC or a monster like Sandilands....but not all the time and its important not to be stuck with a player who can only ruck and has to be benched when not rucking.
If a solo ruck goes down in the opening minutes of a GF, that team probably lose.
In respect of Grigg, good luck if he finds himself alone in the midfield early in a game against Naitanui and Lycett, Kreuzer and Phillips, Lynch and Wright, Boyd and Roughead, Keefe and Lobb, etc., etc..
Kreuzer does best when he has 90% ToG, rucking or not, if you bench him you take away his biggest weapon which is his aerobic capacity, you have to force his physically matched opponent to stay on the ground with him and not have him anchored in a pocket where the opponent can rest.
The biggest problem I have with Casboult offering chop-outs is that it's like a holiday for the opposition, he has little physical impact on the opponent because he doesn't make them work hard enough! It's probably being made to work hard that has Gawn rating Kreuzer so highly.
Recent GF winners Richmond would argue they went with Nankervis and Grigg as their ruckman.......Bulldogs went with Roughead and a inexperienced very part time backup in Boyd...its what suits your gameplan IMO and there is no one size fits all approach. Kreuzer does best when he rucks 90% of the day and the 10% remaining can be filled in by Casboult, Harry Mckay, Rowe etc....
Some days you do need two rucks, say vs WC or a monster like Sandilands....but not all the time and its important not to be stuck with a player who can only ruck and has to be benched when not rucking.
Gawn's 208cm from memory, Kreuz 200cm.....big difference.
Like Plowman rucking against Kreuzer.
LKreuzer struggles against the really tall guys, who wouldn't!
It's because he is so mobile, and his 2nd or 3rd efforts are relentless and instantaneous. They get no break against him, ruck SpecialK with Phillips or Lobbe against Gawn and we'd win far more clearances because Gawn would get no respite. They are flat out keeping up with Kreuzer, and won't easily defeat Phillips.
It's no different to Wet Toast rucking Naitanui and Lycett, after their recent success against Nthmond you'll find more clubs doing this.
Solo rucks are a weak point that can be exploited, we know that from good experience.
Problem is that we are alot worse when we have 2 rucks. Proven time and again, something we also know from bad experience Takes away Kreuzer's best asset as it is often replaced by Phillips inability to get much of the ball. Very few clubs go down that path in the modern game. Richmond won a flag with Nankervis and Grigg. Casboult does a decent job when he takes his turn. Besides giving him confidence running around the ground his taps stats to advantage this year are surprisingly good. It's been proven time and again we are better off with Kreuzer/Casboult then Kreuzer/Phillips. That's why we went that way. Think is was way more than Nic Nat and Lycett that was the reason for the big win. Bet that's not repeated come finals.
Gawn's 208cm from memory, Kreuz 200cm.....big difference.
Like Plowman rucking against Kreuzer.
LKreuzer struggles against the really tall guys, who wouldn't!
I'd like to see Jones 198 with a good leap (and chaos factor ;D) doing a bit of relief rucking.
Your backup ruckman must essentially be a forward, one who knows leading patterns, where those up field are going to place the ball, how to work in tandem with the other tall forward etc. Unfortunate, Phillips doesn't offer that. He's a ruckman who can rest up forward....waste of space. Work with Harry to eventually take over the "Daniher" role of 5 - 8 mins per quarter in the ruck. While Harry is learning, use The Bolt.
Recent GF winners Richmond would argue they went with Nankervis and Grigg as their ruckman.......Bulldogs went with Roughead and a inexperienced very part time backup in Boyd...its what suits your gameplan IMO and there is no one size fits all approach. Kreuzer does best when he rucks 90% of the day and the 10% remaining can be filled in by Casboult, Harry Mckay, Rowe etc....
Some days you do need two rucks, say vs WC or a monster like Sandilands....but not all the time and its important not to be stuck with a player who can only ruck and has to be benched when not rucking.
Never a reason for two ruckmen. We're worse off no matter how it's put. Just puts an unnecessary big bloke on the ground that we don't need. Only play two rucks if they can do something up forward and around the ground otherwise they are a total waste when not rucking. Slows us up too much and takes away Kreuzer's best asset. Still win clearances, as we did easily against Essendon, despite a big tapout deficit.
I'd like to see Jones 198 with a good leap (and chaos factor ;D) doing a bit of relief rucking.
I'm surprised we haven't tried that the last two weeks.
If a solo ruck goes down in the opening minutes of a GF, that team probably lose.
In respect of Grigg, good luck if he finds himself alone in the midfield early in a game against Naitanui and Lycett, Kreuzer and Phillips, Lynch and Wright, Boyd and Roughead, Keefe and Lobb, etc., etc..
Kreuzer does best when he has 90% ToG, rucking or not, if you bench him you take away his biggest weapon which is his aerobic capacity, you have to force his physically matched opponent to stay on the ground with him and not have him anchored in a pocket where the opponent can rest.
The biggest problem I have with Casboult offering chop-outs is that it's like a holiday for the opposition, he has little physical impact on the opponent because he doesn't make them work hard enough! It's probably being made to work hard that has Gawn rating Kreuzer so highly.
I reckon Grigg cpould've rucked all day in the GF and Richmond would've smashed Adelaide. You just rove to the opposition and make sure the opposition kids don't get a clear run at it.
I reckon Grigg cpould've rucked all day in the GF and Richmond would've smashed Adelaide. You just rove to the opposition and make sure the opposition kids don't get a clear run at it.
You could but you'd be crazy.
In the GF I believe Nankervis bettered Grigg in 19 out of the 23 categories of stats collected by CD, including stuff Grigg should dominate like I50, CP, MK and CM.
Grigg clearly got him one though, Clangers!
You can sort through them here, AFL Tables (https://afltables.com/afl/stats/teams/richmond/2017_gbg.html)
It's because he is so mobile, and his 2nd or 3rd efforts are relentless and instantaneous. They get no break against him, ruck SpecialK with Phillips or Lobbe against Gawn and we'd win far more clearances because Gawn would get no respite. They are flat out keeping up with Kreuzer, and won't easily defeat Phillips.
It's no different to Wet Toast rucking Naitanui and Lycett, after their recent success against Nthmond you'll find more clubs doing this.
Solo rucks are a weak point that can be exploited, we know that from good experience.
No argument from me. I have always been of advocate of 2 specialist rucks (not one plus big lug fwd who cant kick straight). It then becomes either 2 v 1 or 2 v 2. Don't like going in with Kruze alone, like the way he works in tandem with Flip.
I reckon Grigg cpould've rucked all day in the GF and Richmond would've smashed Adelaide. You just rove to the opposition and make sure the opposition kids don't get a clear run at it.
Dont agree. Roving to the oppo ruckman is a fantasy if you ask me. Hard enough to get synergy with your own ruck let alone the other mobs. Geelong couldn't rove to the other rucks on the week and they have The Holy Trinity. Its not a coincidence that Wet Toast are on top of the table. 2 Rucks playing in the Ruck, 2 KPFs playing in the fwd line. What a novel concept.
Dont agree. Roving to the oppo ruckman is a fantasy if you ask me. Hard enough to get synergy with your own ruck let alone the other mobs. Geelong couldn't rove to the other rucks on the week and they have The Holy Trinity. Its not a coincidence that Wet Toast are on top of the table. 2 Rucks playing in the Ruck, 2 KPFs playing in the fwd line. What a novel concept.
The media is too focused on giving credit to the Nthmond game setup, and the Dogs before them, but have ignored the impact their lack of significant injuries had on those premiership seasons. The current game style is so high in intensity that if you lose a couple of key personal your fortunes will plummet.
Look everyone is calling for hard and fast rules but they ignore too many factors.
1. Richmond's ruck contesting in the grand final worked, because Adelaide became too Dusty focussed, and didnt put enough work into his teamates.
2. Look what West Coast tandemn ruck and tandemn forwardline did to Richmond on the weekend. They monstored them and Richmond had no answers.
3. If Richmond tried to play a midfielder in the ruck against Grundy, or Kreuzer they would get hammered. Not all the rucks are like Sandilands who are out of the contest after the bounce.
At the end of the day, sometimes the decision on what ruck setup you go with has less to do with which ruckman are available, and more to do with the rest of the side you can put out on the field.
Look everyone is calling for hard and fast rules but they ignore too many factors.
The best rule is "No Rules", if you have the right list it can win you a flag, go ask Dimma! ;)
I think we'll see a lot more of H McKay playing second ruck. He's already shown glimpses that he could develop into a very handy key forward, they'll be keen to add the second string rucking duties to his bag of tricks, would make him a very useful player for us in a few years. They'll give him every chance to learn the craft
I think we'll see a lot more of H McKay playing second ruck. He's already shown glimpses that he could develop into a very handy key forward, they'll be keen to add the second string rucking duties to his bag of tricks, would make him a very useful player for us in a few years. They'll give him every chance to learn the craft
And thats where I have a problem. He's a farken KPF, train him and use him as a KPF. Why must we persist with this notion of multi use players. Let the kids learn one craft well then worry about pinch hitting elsewhere. Look at the negative effect on Weiter using him as a swingman. Henderson before him. Learn from past errors Blues.
And thats where I have a problem. He's a farken KPF, train him and use him as a KPF. Why must we persist with this notion of multi use players. Let the kids learn one craft well then worry about pinch hitting elsewhere. Look at the negative effect on Weiter using him as a swingman. Henderson before him. Learn from past errors Blues.
I have some sympathy for this - jack of all trades, master of none and all that. We've also ruined players in the past by playing them in roles they were not suited to fill gaps caused by recruiting and development stuff ups. They then got crucified for being no good! I won't go through that sorry list again.
I have some sympathy for this - jack of all trades, master of none and all that. We've also ruined players in the past by playing them in roles they were not suited to fill gaps caused by recruiting and development stuff ups. They then got crucified for being no good! I won't go through that sorry list again.
Nuffs enuff Cookie.
I agree with others that Kreuzer is our best ruck, but only when he spends 90% of the game in the ruck. So if we want our best ruck to do his role, we need someone to give him a chop out. Playing a second ruck to do 10% of the rucking, when he is useless anywhere else but in the ruck, is ludicrous. The only other option is to only ruck Kreuzer (our best ruckman) in the ruck for 50 or 60% of the time so the other guy gets to ruck too. That takes away from our ruck stocks (we are not playing our best ruck there for the time that we should be), and means we have ruckmen playing forward or back or whatever that are less effective than other guys on our list in similar roles. Can't see why we ever consider playing 2 pure ruckmen while Kreuzer is up and about
FMD... It really matters what jumper you wear doesn't it?
You got that right????
There can be no doubt Kreuzer is our best ruck option. The lad is champ and like many are saying does his best work by spending most of the game at the coal face pushing opposition midfielders around.
But reality is he won't be making the taps to our next premiership winning midfield. He is vital to our short term survival, but we need a plan B and I doubt it is either Philips or Lobbe
There can be no doubt Kreuzer is our best ruck option. The lad is champ and like many are saying does his best work by spending most of the game at the coal face pushing opposition midfielders around.
But reality is he won't be making the taps to our next premiership winning midfield. He is vital to our short term survival, but we need a plan B and I doubt it is either Philips or Lobbe
You have heard of De Koning and Mckay right?
I was debating with Lods jumpers now versus back then, you need to read a whole thread before you comment.
The idea posted earlier that jumpers are a tell about a player's intent is rubbish, step in SOS or Hunter!
I did read the whole thread, but I got lost following the worms in your head, I do agree with you that long or short sleeves have nothing to with a players “intent”
You have heard of De Koning and Mckay right?
Yes. But neither is a proven replacement yet. The catch 22 is that the only way they get that sort of experience is by displacing Kreuzer - and consensus suggests he does his best work when he's rucking solo for nearly the whole match.
There can be no doubt Kreuzer is our best ruck option. The lad is champ and like many are saying does his best work by spending most of the game at the coal face pushing opposition midfielders around.
But reality is he won't be making the taps to our next premiership winning midfield. He is vital to our short term survival, but we need a plan B and I doubt it is either Philips or Lobbe
Just to show you dont need Polly Farmer or Big Nic to win a flag, here are the last 10 Premiership Ruckmen:
2017 Toby Nankervis
2016 Jordan Roughead Tom Boyd
2015 Ben McEvoy
2014 Ben McEvoy David Hale
2013 Max Bailey David Hale
2012 Mike Pyke Shane Mumford
2011 Brad Ottens Tent West
2010 Darren Jolly Leigh Brown
2009 Mark Blake Brad Ottens
2008 Robert Campbell Brent Renouf
Just to show you dont need Polly Farmer or Big Nic to win a flag, here are the last 10 Premiership Ruckmen:
2017 Toby Nankervis
2016 Jordan Roughead Tom Boyd
2015 Ben McEvoy
2014 Ben McEvoy David Hale
2013 Max Bailey David Hale
2012 Mike Pyke Shane Mumford
2011 Brad Ottens Tent West
2010 Darren Jolly Leigh Brown
2009 Mark Blake Brad Ottens
2008 Robert Campbell Brent Renouf
Not exactly all plodders there.
Not exactly all plodders there.
Not a list of superstar ruckman either, especially the last few years.
So our pathway to success is to trade out Kreuzer to save salary cap space and let Casboult take over the ruck until De Koning is ready to carry the load in 2020?
This part time ruck/odd job player started with Jolly and Leigh Brown ...Brown wasnt much of a ruckman but he used to run around cleaning up players and being more of a physical presence rather than providing any ruck stats..
This part time ruck/odd job player started with Jolly and Leigh Brown ...Brown wasnt much of a ruckman but he used to run around cleaning up players and being more of a physical presence rather than providing any ruck stats..
Nankervis does quite a lot of that stuff too.
How I wish Levi participated in that game
Not exactly all plodders there.
Not all, but certainly mostly.
People get the emphasis wrong when discussing rucks;
Ruck is not the primary role with being a footballer second.
Footballer "is" the primary role, ruck is something that certain footballers do, some do it better than others!
Nankervis is a footballer who rucks, his football stats are often better than Grigg, and Nankervis is a good ruck!
When you are struggling as a footballer, ruck shouldn't be your get out clause! Some KPPs struggling to be footballers seem to use weak attempts at being a ruck as their golden parachute!
Having the wrong emphasis causes you to trade for players like Warnock, mind you prior to Enright putting the fear of god into Warnock with a king hit disguised as a spoil Warnock wasn't too bad as a footballer.
De Koning is the real deal long term, the kid is a footballer who rucks.
People get the emphasis wrong when discussing rucks;
Ruck is not the primary role with being a footballer second.
Footballer "is" the primary role, ruck is something that certain footballers do, some do it better than others!
Nankervis is footballer who rucks, his football stats are often better than Grigg, and Nankervis is a good ruck!
When you are struggling as a footballer, ruck shouldn't be your get out clause! Some KPPs struggling to be footballers seem to use weak attempts at being a ruck as their golden parachute!
Having the wrong emphasis causes you to trade for players like Warnock, mind you prior to Enright putting the fear of god into Warnock with a king hit disguised as a spoil Warnock wasn't too bad as a footballer.
De Koning is the real deal long term, the kid is a footballer who rucks.
Players get given a run on ball (or in the case of struggling forwards) a turn in the ruck to get them involved in the game.
Players get given a run on ball (or in the case of struggling forwards) a turn in the ruck to get them involved in the game.
Like I said, ruck shouldn't be your get out clause if you are struggling to hold down your main role.
Like I said, ruck shouldn't be your get out clause if you are struggling to hold down your main role.
In our case at the moment, the forwards wouldnt get a sniff if they werent having the odd run on the ball.
Its something that I have seen every club do at some point.
The idea of multi faceted players exists so you can put them somewhere and get value out of them on days when they are struggling and applies to all players unilaterally.
The idea of multi faceted players exists so you can put them somewhere and get value out of them on days when they are struggling and applies to all players unilaterally.
Ahh utilitarianism, or otherwise known as the standardisation myth.
That argument just sets up your team to deliver a new level of mediocrity, because by making talented individuals fill roles they are not suited for you end up dragging them down to the level of the list cloggers. When you let a list clogger fill in with some secondary role, it probably means your primary choice is filling some secondary role elsewhere.
Coaches who go down this path are a dead end to ultimate success, and it's a good reason why MM has so few flags from such a long long long career. He was excellent at standardising his team to finish in the upper echelon without having the flair to go that one step further.
There is a good reason Harry Taylor is an AA defender and a very average forward.
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Coaches who go down this path are a dead end to ultimate success, and it's a good reason why MM has so few flags from such a long long long career. He was excellent at standardising his team to finish in the upper echelon without having the flair to go that one step further.
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To be fair to Mick, in 01 and 02 he came up against one of the greatest teams ever at the peak of their powers. It remains to be seen whether any other coach could have done better. In any other era, he may have ended up with 5 flags.
I do agree with your general principle though. He was workmanlike and seemed to favour honest toilers rather than out and out guns. I think the Pies made 6 prelims in 10 years during the 2000's, which is a great effort, but like you, I also wonder whether he shot himself in the foot by not embracing more flair and class.
To be fair to Mick, in 01 and 02 he came up against one of the greatest teams ever at the peak of their powers.
I assume you mean 02 and 03, versus Leigh Matthews.
I know who'd I pick as coach. One was inventive and dynamic in many roles as both a player and coach, the other was a back pocket! ;)
I assume you mean 02 and 03, versus Leigh Matthews.
I know who'd I pick as coach. One was inventive and dynamic in many roles as both a player and coach, the other was a back pocket! ;)
Yes, sorry, I did mean 02 and 03, versus the great Lions 3peat team.
I don't really want to get into a coaching comparison, but if you compare Matthews' coaching record at the Lions v Pies, the total games coached, and the W-L-D records are uncannily similar. Yet he got 3 flags (and very nearly a 4th) at the Lions, and 1 at the Pies. It must be nice to have elite talent on every line.
Ahh utilitarianism, or otherwise known as the standardisation myth.
That argument just sets up your team to deliver a new level of mediocrity, because by making talented individuals fill roles they are not suited for you end up dragging them down to the level of the list cloggers. When you let a list clogger fill in with some secondary role, it probably means your primary choice is filling some secondary role elsewhere.
Coaches who go down this path are a dead end to ultimate success, and it's a good reason why MM has so few flags from such a long long long career. He was excellent at standardising his team to finish in the upper echelon without having the flair to go that one step further.
There is a good reason Harry Taylor is an AA defender and a very average forward.
Yeah, nah.
The ability to shift around the magnets can help you change and win games.
Irrespective of what pie in the sky stuff you say.
Multi faceted players are good.
We had one in kouta, and I didn't see anyone complaining when Williams kicked five in a grand final against Geelong.
Yeah, nah.
The ability to shift around the magnets can help you change and win games.
Irrespective of what pie in the sky stuff you say.
Multi faceted players are good.
We had one in kouta, and I didn't see anyone complaining when Williams kicked five in a grand final against Geelong.
Yeah Nah, whatever their role they do one thing clearly better than others.
Yeah Nah, whatever their role they do one thing clearly better than others.
That's not the point, even though that's what you're arguing about. How did midfielder Shaun grigg go in the ruck in the grand final??