Post Game Pain: Carlton vs Port Adelaide

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Re: Post Game Pain: Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #120 – August 25, 2014, 12:43:20 pm

Quote from: Baggers on August 25, 2014, 11:57:12 am

A difference, not THE difference.

Fair enough, once again I refer you to the Scum and Melbourne games. I disagree he would have made neither 'a' or 'the' difference.

Re: Post Game Pain: Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #121 – August 25, 2014, 12:44:42 pm

Quote from: madbluboy on August 25, 2014, 12:39:35 pm

One or two leaders can make a difference to the whole team. Kernahan and Williams didn't play in our two losses in 1995. Brazil's defence was in tatters without Thiago Silva against Germany. We had a lot of experience missing on Friday night and Port played as good as any side I've seen this year.

Yep I agree, but if this is in reference to the Daisy comment you are way off the mark putting his assumed leadership in the Sticks/Williams bracket. In fact I wouldn't even put Williams in the Sticks bracket TBH.

Re: Post Game Pain: Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #122 – August 25, 2014, 12:49:53 pm

Quote from: ItsOurTime on August 25, 2014, 11:50:32 am

The leadership argument makes no sense when you consider we have been flogged before, quite often, or put in miserable performances with Thomas in the squad. He was also evicted from the leadership group at Collingwood which says much about his leadership IMO.

Fact is if he wasn't a high price trade in and was with Carlton the last 2 years, he'd be making appearances on Sheik's sacked lists and most would be making a case to ship him off for a 2nd rounder.

Anyone still arguing the toss just needs to read this post. The only thing I'd change is that I'm not sure he'd fetch a second rounder.

Re: Post Game Pain: Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #123 – August 25, 2014, 02:21:51 pm

Quote from: PassIt2Carrots on August 25, 2014, 10:13:35 am

No we are not agreeing at all. I do not believe Daisy would have made any difference. This is the comment of yours I was addressing. Your comments are based on nothing more than assumption and guesswork, which you're entitled to make, but I totally disagree.

I think you overrate his (Daisy's) leadership in order to justify his poor performances in comparison to his salary. You've mentioned before that you tend to go against what I think because I annoy you. I think you've gone down this method of assumption for that very reason. I think Daisy has been a big flop and you're looking for some way to contradict that.

Have I?

Not at all. I dont bother with personal gripes, life is too short. I think maybe your projecting your stance onto me.

Im just trying to make sense of how we go from matching it with Freo and Geelong, to copping an absolute shellacking against Port Adelaide with the only notable absentees being Ellard, Armfield and Thomas.

Is Thomas a factor or not? you think no, I think perhaps, and asked the question. We have seen varying degrees of answers, the reality is that Johnson or Holman out and Thomas in, (average or at his better performances) is an improvement and a difference. Im under no illusions as to what would have occurred, Port played manic finals football and took us to the cleaners. Like has been stated, we had few stand up, and even one of our better guys (Gibbs) you have mentioned failed to put in the expected effort early on. Port played the type of football that our team has really failed to compete with in the past, and looking at the Hawks vs Geelong game on saturday night, I would say Hawthorn went to that level in the second half, and absolutely pantsed the Cats which somewhat explains away our increased ability to compete over the past few weeks.

If we dont hypothesize, then we wont ever see what's right or whats not. Or we can just all agree, insert lines such as we were woeful, and then can cry about it. If thats your notion of a forum, Ill have no part of it. FYI, Ive noticed a trend. Every time we have a bad beat, you get all aggressive at people on the forum. All well and good, have your vent, but there is no need to resort to this stuff. I understand you see no value in Thomas.

At the end of the day, we will agree to disagree and thats all there is. Some will side with you, others wont, and most wont care because we got smacked. The one thing that I know is that until we start winning anything significant, we can discuss it all till christmas but it wont change our fortunes any.

Re: Post Game Pain: Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #124 – August 25, 2014, 02:56:15 pm

Amen to that Thry, but you did say I annoy you.

Re: Post Game Pain: Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #125 – August 25, 2014, 03:45:00 pm

Quote from: madbluboy on August 25, 2014, 12:39:35 pm

One or two leaders can make a difference to the whole team. Kernahan and Williams didn't play in our two losses in 1995. Brazil's defence was in tatters without Thiago Silva against Germany. We had a lot of experience missing on Friday night and Port played as good as any side I've seen this year.

Did they miss the leadership or the talent. Thry is trying to say his presence (attitude, tackling, chasing, instructing) was a contributing factor. I don't buy that argument and I doubt we'd see a scoreline differen ce if Thomas played.

Re: Post Game Pain: Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #126 – August 25, 2014, 03:49:45 pm

Thomas has to deliver what Goddard does for Essendon.......most of us thought Essendon paid overs but as its turned out he is delivering what EFC paid for and will probably be AA after winning their B and F last season. He has given leadership and been a factor in making the finals as a player.

Thomas has delivered much less and while I hear some you saying his ongoing ankle problems have seen him have a slow start to the year etc etc..its no excuse we knew what we were buying and he was passed fit to play ...for 700k a year his first year has been a failure and we have been short changed if you use Goddard as a yardstick...
On the field I have not seen any real leadership being offered and while I dont know what he offers off the track I'm seeing value in this part of game.

Re: Post Game Pain: Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #127 – August 25, 2014, 04:22:30 pm

Quote from: ItsOurTime on August 25, 2014, 03:45:00 pm

Quote from: madbluboy on August 25, 2014, 12:39:35 pm
One or two leaders can make a difference to the whole team. Kernahan and Williams didn't play in our two losses in 1995. Brazil's defence was in tatters without Thiago Silva against Germany. We had a lot of experience missing on Friday night and Port played as good as any side I've seen this year.

Did they miss the leadership or the talent. Thry is trying to say his presence (attitude, tackling, chasing, instructing) was a contributing factor. I don't buy that argument and I doubt we'd see a scoreline differen ce if Thomas played.

They missed the leadership.

Silva as an individual is a good defender, but he is not a 9 goal wall. What his absence resulted in was a lack of structure throughout the defense and midfield. This resulted in players not working together for the common good, lines in tatters and Germany rather than having to break the opposition lines, just had to run through open spaces as Brazil had done this for them. His absence was not the sole reason this occurred. A lack of attacking Lynchpin did not aid the situation as there was no one there to "straighten" then up at the Centre Forward position. As a result, the moment the rest of the structure breaks down, you end up with only one line that might have been doing its job. Result, space and time for Germany to exploit, and as we have seen, the Germans are currently playing some of the best football and took full advantage.

One player can make a massive difference depending on what they bring to the team. Whilst Daisy is no backline general, he is one player who knows what Malthouse wants from his team, and will help at least two others play to the correct structure. Minus Daisy, its not just one that wouldnt have been doing what was expected, it was multiple. Thats where I see the difference between an honourable loss, and a 100 point loss.

Now, I might be overating structures, Daisy or what not, but there is one code I know a lot about and thats the round ball code, and I can argue quite happily that Germany wouldnt have scored 9 vs Brazil had Silva played. They still probably would have won, but it would have been more of a contest rather than a team open its legs and cop that many in a row.

Re: Post Game Pain: Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #128 – August 25, 2014, 04:29:30 pm

Quote from: PassIt2Carrots on August 25, 2014, 12:43:20 pm

Quote from: Baggers on August 25, 2014, 11:57:12 am
A difference, not THE difference.

Fair enough, once again I refer you to the Scum and Melbourne games. I disagree he would have made neither 'a' or 'the' difference.

Of course he would have made A difference, any change does... on logic alone.

Also, we should not underestimate the losses of Duigan and Scotland in terms of leadership around the place (not THE difference but certainly a factor to be considered). In terms of leadership our boys are still growing and seem to be growing in the right direction. Important to step back and see the bigger picture of the past 4-6 weeks - much more to be positive about than negative. Every media expert I have heard has commented that we have improved on last year. Yes, the effort last Friday night was dreadful but it was unusual in terms of how we have been this year... what it did do is open lots of wounds that we all still have for where this club has been for the past 10+ years.

Re: Post Game Pain: Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #129 – August 25, 2014, 04:29:45 pm

But as a proven leader Silva>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Thomas.

Re: Post Game Pain: Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #130 – August 25, 2014, 04:33:46 pm

Quote from: Baggers on August 25, 2014, 04:29:30 pm

Of course he would have made A difference, any change does... on logic alone.

You're taking my comment out of it's context now Baggers. The discussion was whether he would have made a difference in terms of stopping the opposition's dominance. I say he wouldn't have.

Re: Post Game Pain: Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #131 – August 25, 2014, 04:34:43 pm

@Carrots. Are you causing trouble again?

Re: Post Game Pain: Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #132 – August 25, 2014, 04:58:18 pm

@Thry if after 2 years the players don't know what Mick wants we are in deep poo.

Our structures fall apart pretty badly even when Daisy is there so I don't know what that says about his leadership

Re: Post Game Pain: Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #133 – August 25, 2014, 05:48:03 pm

Quote from: Baggers on August 25, 2014, 04:29:30 pm

Quote from: PassIt2Carrots on August 25, 2014, 12:43:20 pm
Quote from: Baggers on August 25, 2014, 11:57:12 am
A difference, not THE difference.

Fair enough, once again I refer you to the Scum and Melbourne games. I disagree he would have made neither 'a' or 'the' difference.

Of course he would have made A difference, any change does... on logic alone.

Also, we should not underestimate the losses of Duigan and Scotland in terms of leadership around the place (not THE difference but certainly a factor to be considered). In terms of leadership our boys are still growing and seem to be growing in the right direction. Important to step back and see the bigger picture of the past 4-6 weeks - much more to be positive about than negative. Every media expert I have heard has commented that we have improved on last year. Yes, the effort last Friday night was dreadful but it was unusual in terms of how we have been this year... what it did do is open lots of wounds that we all still have for where this club has been for the past 10+ years.

The thing is though that it wasn't unusual in terms of the "year as a whole"
The 4-6 weeks before the loss were the "unusual" ones...but it should not be just wiped out by that debacle on Friday night, just as the season should not be judged o the first 4-6 weeks.

The biggest mistake that we can make is to accept last Friday as an aberration.
It highlights that we are probably the most wildly inconsistent side going around.
Lots and lots yet to proven in terms of coaching, playing personnel and leadership

in 2013 we finished with 11 wins and a percentage of 106.7%
We scored 2125 for and had 1992 kicked against us.

With one game to go we have 7 wins and a percentage of 89.3%
We've scored 1801 for and had 2017 kicked against us

The experts might think we've improved (based mostly on the last 5 weeks) but if we keep "improving" at this rate we'll go out backwards.

Re: Post Game Pain: Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #134 – August 25, 2014, 05:57:47 pm

@Lods
Agree. What it shows is that terrible lapses and 100+ point defeats are still part of our DNA.

As I've posted before, we do have some fine players, just not enough of them and too many of the mistake-ridden mediocrities. When our good guys have an off game we get smashed - it's pretty simple really. Answer, we need more of the better players to bridge the chasm that currently exists between best and worst, i.e. a lot more quality depth.