So after about 2/3rds of what can only be decsribed as a very mediocre season for CFC we see a lot of forum posters bagging the list and even the Messiah, MM, having a fair old crack at the players (always great for Team spirit Mick - not).
I say BS to all that. The list we have is good (or can be good enough barring injuries) it's just that our top players - the top 6 or 10 or so guys that are the cream - the ones that turn matches or win games ofF their own boot. They aren't turning up either individually or collectively.
Contrast to Geelong - their big guns stand up when the heat is on week in week out, ditto the Hawks and Sydney. We can all name the 6 or 8 players from each of those clubs that everyone knows will stand up and perform when the blow torch is on...... where are the CFC equivalent guys?
It's not the bottom 6 - every side has them - the Tuohys, Armfields etc, all very serviceable as the bit players.
Let's look at our top 12 or so and rate them in 2013.
Ratings are based on what they've done onfield but also factoring in absence due to injury/suspension. I'll be harsh and say 6 is a pass given these guys are regular (dare I say proven) AFL players.
Murphy (Captain) - struggling with the mantle of being Captain? output is way below average. 2011 average 29 disposals a game, 2013 only 22 (and a lot of outside receiving)
Injury didn't help but looks very slow now too. Carrying an injury. 4 out of 10.
Judd
The great man is still the great man. Still our best player and the last man to 'give up'. Some bad disopsal at times but under the heat he attracts..... a gun. 7.5 out of 10.
He can't do it all himself. Shouldn't have to either!!
Gibbs
Some say his best season yet. I say BS. He simply doesn't impose himself on a game at all. Looks lazy and laconic. No one questions the ability or the potential but when will he extract the digit and look like he cares?
Should be kicking a lot more goals too. Gibbs or Selwood - no brainer. Only 24 yo but.....
I would trade for the right deal. Sends a bad message to the younger payers. 4 out of 10.
Kreuzer
Perhaps thus far a bigger disappointment as a #1 pick knee injury notwithstanding. 24 yo and they say big guys take longer. Still he looked awfully slow on Sat night. like many others.....
Am expecting BOG performances from this guy (or I was). Harry took time, hopefully Special K can find a few more gears. Puts in no question, but....
5 out of 10.
Carrots
Barely been on the park this year - again. Last few weeks have been ordinary but can only improve. A very important player for us but time is marching on and they say calf injuries are the curse of the older player. 1 out of 10.
Betts
Started the year in great form. Then the injury, then the report. Now playing as sub allegedly because of niggles. Looked in good touch when on the ground against the Sainters.
Missing his goals. 12 goals in 9 games this year is a fail in my book. 3 out of 10.
Jamison
Great start then the shoulder injury scare. Faded from mid season and looks sluggish at times (carrying the shoulder?) Some terrible clangers against the Saints. 6 out of 10 (overall).
Henderson
A break out year for Hendo (thank God for CFC!) down back and recently up forward. A few mistakes but he's not Robinson Carusoe!
Future AA player. 8.5 out of 10.
Yarran
Perhaps the most skilled player on our list and one of the quickest. Personality clash with Mick or just petulance?
Needs a massive rocket (probably already had it) but no way I would trade him as he is one of our few genuine match winners.
Perhaps time to throw him into the guts - give him a challenge.
All in all a poor year for Chris - 3 out of 10.
Garlett
Great at times, missing at other times. I have often wondered whether the three Amigos have gone on strike collectively - perhaps to protest Yazz's 'treatment'?
oUR LEADING GOAL KICKER WITH 32 GOALS - 2 a game. Can do more to get involved or should MM be doing that. 6.5 out of 10.
Waite
sTILL A GUN WHEN ON THE PARK but injury and suspension.
The suspension for the 1st Saints game was huge, make no mistake. Kicked the whole team in the guts. For that a big fail and at 30/31 he's gone much sooner than later. 4 out of 10.
Laidler (on 2011 form easily top 10) - 0 OUT OF 10. For reasons known to others can't get a gig at senior level. Maybe not smashing it in the 2s but some guys just need senior game time to produce their best. His average days are a lot better than (for example) Simon White's good days imo.
Simmo - super game against the Saints but overall a very average season albeit a new role as a defensive sweeper. 5 out of 10.
So out of this lot, only Hendo and Judd have 'produced' this season.
Surprising we're as close to the 8 as we are given that. Maybe the bottom 6 or so are actually doing ok or have improved?
The question remains?
WHY ARE OUR TOP PLAYERS GOING MISSING SO OFTEN?
Where are the match winning/turning performances?
Was it a mistake to make the introverted Murphy Captain?
Are the Gen Y players simply not relating to the old school master type that MM seemingly is? (the game plan is perhaps too defensive too or is that part of MM's "process")
Great fking post I would applaud that sht a million times if the site would let me!!
@FB77
Great post FB and some great questions that I hope can be answered sooner rather than later.
No Walker?
I'd put him up there with Hendo and Judd in terms of performance this season (at least from early rounds anyway).
No Walker?
I'd put him up there with Hendo and Judd in terms of performance this season (at least from early rounds anyway).
I was thinking the very same thing as I read it!
I don't think it is as simple as Fly has outlined but his theory certainly is a contributing factor.
Sometimes, you can have all the talented players you like but they don't ever achieve success. People will look at the coaches, they will also point the finger at the development program or they will be looking for excuses like injuries or suspension as the reasons for non-performance. Whilst they are all quite valid options and actually could be the reason(s) why the team achieves nothing more than mediocre levels, there is also an intangible that does get overlooked time & time again.
Sometimes the group just doesn't work together !! By that I mean they are not emotionally engaged because they are not the right mix of characters. There needs to be some big characters (ie. extroverts) who bind them all-together as well as some back-slappers & encouragers. Don't discount the value of the players who will speak out and tell it like it is, they are not afraid to show their emotions, show that losing hurts them and they don't like it.
Every successful group has a mixture of characters but the bulk of them aren't shrinking violets or Marcel Marceau impersonators. With playing ability being on a par across most AFL lists, its the grey matter & attitude that eventually makes the difference.
We have too many gentlemen, quietly spoken & shy guys at the club right now. Even though a fair proportion of them can play footy, collectively they will never go on and win the big ones because they just don't have the leaders, fighters & shouters amongst them to lead them out of the trenches.
Dont disagree that our better players have been down on output this year but I dont buy the argument that the list is all fine either....the good clubs have about 30 decent players, we dont and need about 5-6 more good senior players that can impact at senior level.
We wouldnt need to poach Luke Williams from Geelong if the club were that happy with our recruiting or have Hughes and Rogers swap jobs......
Dont disagree that our better players have been down on output this year but I dont buy the argument that the list is all fine either....the good clubs have about 30 decent players, we dont and need about 5-6 more good senior players that can impact at senior level.
We wouldnt need to poach Luke Williams from Geelong if the club were that happy with our recruiting or have Hughes and Rogers swap jobs......
Not saying the list is "fine" EB1, just that even given the list we have they are a long long way from playing their best footy, individually and more importantly, collectively.
Just imagine if Roughead, Buddy, Mitchell, Rioli, Lane, Lewis et all all had mediocre seasons at the same time - they'd be below us on the ladder?
Just imagine if Roughead, Buddy, Mitchell, Rioli, Lane, Lewis et all all had mediocre seasons at the same time - they'd be below us on the ladder?
Lewis, Sewell, Buddy, Birchall and Rioli have been down on previous years.
What FB is saying has a lot of merit IMO - we have plenty of talent on the list that is not performing to its potential and if it did we could be sitting a lot prettier.
However, to go on to win the flag I'm convinced that we need about three very good experienced players; a KPF (maybe Hendo?), a KPD, and another class, hard-bodied mid. And I agree these should be of the extrovert type - even captain material.
These are the types we need to chase as priorities for next year, not so much the younger untried variety, however talented.
Apparently we can't win a flag in the next three years so no point going for experience, we need to develop our own and hopefully have them right before blokes like Murphy, Gibbs, Hendo etc are past their prime. Murphy will be 30 in 4 years time will he not? Scary stuff.
No Walker?
I'd put him up there with Hendo and Judd in terms of performance this season (at least from early rounds anyway).
I was thinking the very same thing as I read it!
Could have thrown Walker in there mix too (had to draw the line somewhere) - and yes he's had a 7 our of 10 season thus far imo......
@ Sheik, for sure, it;'s not simple what ails CFC - it seems to have become a cultural issue - perhaps given too many experienced the Pagan Daze and think they're doing pretty darn well right now? :-[ :-\ :'(
There's a definite lack on hunger/intensity week in week out vis a vis what the top teams throw at a match.
Murphy will be 30 in 4 years time will he not? Scary stuff.
Whats even scarier is how old I'll be. :D
We have too many gentlemen, quietly spoken & shy guys at the club right now. Even though a fair proportion of them can play footy, collectively they will never go on and win the big ones because they just don't have the leaders, fighters & shouters amongst them to lead them out of the trenches.
Who are they? Or if you dont want to name names, how many do we have and how does that stack up against say a Geelong?
Who are they? Or if you dont want to name names, how many do we have and how does that stack up against say a Geelong?
I think it would be easier to list those who have the robust character wouldn't it ??
Who are they? Or if you dont want to name names, how many do we have and how does that stack up against say a Geelong?
I think it would be easier to list those who have the robust character wouldn't it ??
Touche!
There are precious few, that's for sure.
Mick better not read this thread after he categorically stated that Gibbs and Kreuzer are untouchable. Looks like flyboy77 is getting a list together for the "Super trade" thread.
Apparently we can't win a flag in the next three years so no point going for experience, we need to develop our own and hopefully have them right before blokes like Murphy, Gibbs, Hendo etc are past their prime. Murphy will be 30 in 4 years time will he not? Scary stuff.
Rubbish. Of course we can be a serious contender within 3 years... even next year. And the injection of an experienced player or 3 would be highly beneficial (1 being a tall defender, 1 being a tall forward & 1 a hard mid... plan assuming Waite will not front up next year, making him a bonus), provided they meet our immediate needs. And we got rid of a few 'non-hackers'. Non-hackers in terms of being able to execute our needs... these blokes might serve another club well, but not us.
Who are they? Or if you dont want to name names, how many do we have and how does that stack up against say a Geelong?
I think it would be easier to list those who have the robust character wouldn't it ??
You know your list better than I do.
Apparently we can't win a flag in the next three years so no point going for experience, we need to develop our own and hopefully have them right before blokes like Murphy, Gibbs, Hendo etc are past their prime. Murphy will be 30 in 4 years time will he not? Scary stuff.
Rubbish. Of course we can be a serious contender within 3 years... even next year. And the injection of an experienced player or 3 would be highly beneficial (1 being a tall defender, 1 being a tall forward & 1 a hard mid... plan assuming Waite will not front up next year, making him a bonus), provided they meet our immediate needs. And we got rid of a few 'non-hackers'. Non-hackers in terms of being able to execute our needs... these blokes might serve another club well, but not us.
Nah no rubbish, straight from the horses mouth, the list needs a cleanout remember, this is what your new coach has brought us. Judd, Carrazzo, Scotland, Simpson, Jamo are all gone in the next 2-3 years and in possibly less time than that. They are the heartbeat of the side. I saw Scotland put his body on the line multiple times against the Saints, something no one else in our team seems to be able to do.
Enjoy waiting at least another ten years, should be fun, let's start counting shall we?
Eliminating our weaknesses before attempting to gain improvement via acquisition seems a pretty simple strategy to me.
Start by picking a balanced side, name the right sub, and don't play injured players for starters, any of that will help out and not cost draft picks or necessitate fancy trading strategies.
Eliminating our weaknesses before attempting to gain improvement via acquisition seems a pretty simple strategy to me.
Start by picking a balanced side, name the right sub, and don't play injured players for starters, any of that will help out and not cost draft picks or necessitate fancy trading strategies.
Aye, some of the MC selections, especially early in the season, were nothing short of appalling.
Mick better not read this thread after he categorically stated that Gibbs and Kreuzer are untouchable. Looks like flyboy77 is getting a list together for the "Super trade" thread.
Maybe it just raises their 'price' in the market place.
Gibbs is worth a lot imo - maybe a change of scene will help start a fire in his belly.....
For example - would you trade Gibbs (and a low draft pick) for Darling and Shuey (or Schofield/Brown), for example?
Pretty tempting based on current output?
Apparently we can't win a flag in the next three years so no point going for experience, we need to develop our own and hopefully have them right before blokes like Murphy, Gibbs, Hendo etc are past their prime. Murphy will be 30 in 4 years time will he not? Scary stuff.
Rubbish. Of course we can be a serious contender within 3 years... even next year. And the injection of an experienced player or 3 would be highly beneficial (1 being a tall defender, 1 being a tall forward & 1 a hard mid... plan assuming Waite will not front up next year, making him a bonus), provided they meet our immediate needs. And we got rid of a few 'non-hackers'. Non-hackers in terms of being able to execute our needs... these blokes might serve another club well, but not us.
Nah no rubbish, straight from the horses mouth, the list needs a cleanout remember, this is what your new coach has brought us. Judd, Carrazzo, Scotland, Simpson, Jamo are all gone in the next 2-3 years and in possibly less time than that. They are the heartbeat of the side. I saw Scotland put his body on the line multiple times against the Saints, something no one else in our team seems to be able to do.
Enjoy waiting at least another ten years, should be fun, let's start counting shall we?
Straight from the horses mouth?? Which horse?
You can actually have a 'list cleanout' without losing too much top end talent.
If we were to delist/trade away the list cloggers like Joseph, Davies, Duigan, Laidler and Ellard.
Make some tough calls on some kids like McCarthy, Mitchell and Watson.
Trade away/upgrade some players who may or may not be of benefit to us in the near future like Warnock, Yarran and Bootsma.
Have a cleanout of some of the rookies like Collins, Okeefe and Dale
I have mentioned 14 players who we could potentially be without next year and i doubt they've played a total of 20-30 games combined for us this year...and half of them would be from Yarran alone.
I know you've tipped your glass over, but there is plenty more water around to fill it up with. You just gotta open your eyes and look around.
You are so focussed on the negatives, that you miss the positives
What are the positives? I don't see one.
wtf?
our best players gone awol and we're a game outside the 8. wow. disaster.
what would you rather, a CJ brownlow and the club finished last? ffs, what a joke of a thread.
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/identifying-carltons-no1-problem-20130712-2pvq3.html (http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/identifying-carltons-no1-problem-20130712-2pvq3.html)
no fan of Lyon, but.....
Kreuzer encapsulates the problems with the Blues' highly prized first-round selections. Yes, he has had injury issues, but he has 99 games under his belt and I can count on one hand the times when the football world has sat up and gone, ''wow, what about that''.
One hand? One finger. Port Adelaide in 2008.
wtf?
our best players gone awol and we're a game outside the 8. wow. disaster.
what would you rather, a CJ brownlow and the club finished last? ffs, what a joke of a thread.
So you reckon all our #1 and other top draft picks are playing close to their potential do you Tex?
My mum always said "don't say anything if you haven't anything nice (also useful) to say".
Take heed.
wtf?
our best players gone awol and we're a game outside the 8. wow. disaster.
what would you rather, a CJ brownlow and the club finished last? ffs, what a joke of a thread.
So you reckon all our #1 and other top draft picks are playing close to their potential do you Tex?
My mum always said "don't say anything if you haven't anything nice (also useful) to say".
Take heed.
Don't worry about Tex, it's ok by him for senior players to under perform as long as it's not under Ratts. ;)
One hand? One finger. Port Adelaide in 2008.
See i have a problem with this vein of thinking. There are things that Matthew has in his game that makes you happy to have him every week, just we dont see it all game every game. Most likely due to him having had his injury woes.
The second efforts, the blocking his ability to link up in play all of it is good we just wish it would happen more frequently.
Chris Yarran is roughly the same in his ability to impact a game. He makes you go wow sometimes and other times is a complete non event.
Gibbs too.
Its all a bit of soft target bashing anyway as you would find more players that have had fewer dominant games in their age group with the inverse largely being the exception and not the rule.
Sorry Thry but Yarran has influenced way more games than Kreuzer from where I sit. Problem with Kreuzer is the things he is good at doing aren't the things we need him to do like great ruckwork, overhead marking etc. He's great (for a big man) when the ball hits the deck but that's not what we need him for. The amount of times we'v kicked the ball long to him on the wing this year and he's failed to even get his hands to the ball is extremely concerning. This is the type of stuff we need him to be good at.
I agree with Gibbs he too has failed to take a game by the scruff of the neck (though we've seen it a few times this year briefly).
Carrotts, I will agree to disagree with you.
I dont believe that either of them have influenced as many games as anyone thinks. Its always the usual suspects leading us to victory and that has been my major knock on this football club for a long time now.
You have to remember, Kreuzer can win his position, but if our midfield gets smashed he appears to have had a bad game. Yarran doesnt even have to win his direct battle to be considered as having taken a game by the scruff of the neck.
Personally, I dont really care much for individuals taking our teams to victory, as I think that this is what has bothered me about our side since the turn of the century. We used to have good teams, now we have good players, and this is the first time where it seems as though its the unit doing the work.
What are the positives? I don't see one.
I know you don't see any. I've tried pointing it out to you all year and you still don't see it.
In reference to your last comments...
The positives are that we can have a list cleanout and basically still keep our best 22. Hence, no rebuild required.
Sorry Thry but Yarran has influenced way more games than Kreuzer from where I sit. Problem with Kreuzer is the things he is good at doing aren't the things we need him to do like great ruckwork, overhead marking etc. He's great (for a big man) when the ball hits the deck but that's not what we need him for. The amount of times we'v kicked the ball long to him on the wing this year and he's failed to even get his hands to the ball is extremely concerning. This is the type of stuff we need him to be good at.
I agree with Gibbs he too has failed to take a game by the scruff of the neck (though we've seen it a few times this year briefly).
I'm with you Carrots. Special K has been a non event this year. Done nothing more than an average AFL ruckman.
If he's carrying an injury well fair enough but for a 25 yo #1 draft pick he is falling a long way short of the mark.
At least when Yarran turns up everyone knows it.... (not that its a competition between the two of them).
Gibbs has been even more ineffectual imo.
Wow. the more I read, the more I learn Special-K is only an average AFL ruckman. I know very little, but I gather each club has 2 ruckmen and maybe 3 as an average. Lets say 2.5 average per club. Let me just do some math at the moment. 2.5 x 16 = 40 ruckmen. That would have Special-K as an average ruckman around 19th to 20th in the league. Wow. 20th ??? That would show 19 ruckmen in the league at minimum better than he is. At least 20 because some clubs have a 3rd or even 4th potential player being developed that doesn't get too many games in a season. Cox, Mummy, Sandilands could be considered definite better players without too much argument. I would really like to know the other 17 ruckmen better than Kreuzer.
I'll think about it but it will be a struggle to find the last 7 or 8 better than what we have. Especially considering my opinion is he ranks top 6 in his defensive game versus other rucks. Top 6 in his 2nd and 3rd efforts and one percenters. Its hard to see him 19 rucks behind in average disposals. Would there be 19 other rucks averaging more tackles than he does. The we have hitouts, marks, and goals kicked. He probably is way behind on these three statistics. I still find how he is way down the list. Not saying things to stir the pot and he probably really is that bad. Just didn't believe it myself ever. Its lucky I read so many posts to get my head straight. Found it odd but can't argue when so many feel the same way.
This being the case we seriously need to take him off the untouchable list and offer him as a trade. Warnock and Hampson can handle the ruck role as we already have 2 average AFL rucks. No point in keeping a 3rd. What we were thinking when we drafted him is beyond me. We could have had Cotchin, who is an elite mid who nearly won the Brownlow medal. Unfortunately Gary on Footy Classified showd how Cotchin has his statistics way down on last year. Way down in every stat. Tackles, marks, disposals, goals, and is behind in stats to his other team-mates playing in the middle of the ground.
He better not be behind Grigg, as we let him walk without any effort. Footy is a funny sport I guess. Recruit in rubbish and trade out your stars. ;D
Rolling out a few stats means little......
How many times has Kreuzer had a real influence on the outcome of a game this season.
I'm not talking about his 'potential', just his output this year.
Rolling out a few stats means little......
How many times has Kreuzer had a real influence on the outcome of a game this season.
I'm not talking about his 'potential', just his output this year.
Forget about this season what about during his career?
I wont roll out stats, I think you just have to look at how he polls in the "jim park medal" thread.
Realistically that seems a better indication of how valuable a contributer he has been, where people put him amongst the best 5 players.
There are very few players in the AFL that can single handedly turn a game of football.
Progressives:
1827 - Walker, Andrew (0)
1717 - Judd, Chris (0)
1525 - Henderson, Lachie (0)
1441 - Garlett, Jeff (0)
1126 - McLean, Brock (0)
1017 - Murphy, Marc (0)
977 - Gibbs, Bryce (0)
865 - Waite, Jarrad (0)
749 - Kreuzer, Matthew (0)
704 - Simpson, Kade (0)
698 - Jamison, Michael (0)
626 - Yarran, Chris (0)
500 - Armfield, Dennis (0)
375 - Warnock, Robert (0)
317 - Cachia, Jarryd (0)
304 - Robinson, Mitch (0)
303 - Scotland, Heath (0)
273 - Tuohy, Zac (0)
206 - White, Simon (0)
189 - Lucas, Kane (0)
182 - Carrazzo, Andrew (0)
178 - Betts, Eddie (0)
150 - Curnow, Edward (0)
80 - Hampson, Shaun (0)
62 - Casboult, Levi (0)
15 - Bell, Tom (0)
14 - Rowe, Sam (0)
6 - Ellard, David (0)
5 - Menzel, Troy (0)
4 - Buckley, Dylan (0)
3 - Duigan, Nicholas (0)
This season, Kreuzer has had an inffluence (according to the mixed opinions that we see on here) in games of football. These might not have translated into wins but he has had a decent year, and we all agree there is more that he could be giving us. Lets not forget he has missed games through injury too. The important part to remember, that his relief staff have all had very limited ratings by comparison, with Robert Warnock coming closest given the games played vs votes achieved scenario.
I think Kreuzer gets given more time due to his high draft pick status and potential and hope that goes along with that. I think when we say he's no star, if he was a third rounder we'd be happy with what he's producing but certain expectations come with a #1 draft pick and unfortunately he's yet to get anywhere near that.