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Messages - Baggers

3137
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: Merry Christmas
Best wishes for Christmas, Hanukkah, Yule, Hogmanay, Modraniht, the solstice, Saturnalia, Pancha Ganapati or whatever else you choose to celebrate at this time of year!



What DJC said plus a very special wish from moi to everyone on this forum, I hope your football team excels in every way imaginable next year!!  ;) ;D :))
3138
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: Rock n Roll HoF
I wonder if Janet felt just a little bit embarrassed accepting the award. R & R Hall of Fame... Janet Jackson... really!! :o
3139
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: SSM Plebiscite
Permission to dive in! Thank you.

Wow, this is good reading. I’m actually finding much info that is educational, if not somewhat bamboozling resulting in feeling a little uninformed or even dense at times, thank the gods for Google (gods... Google... is there a little correlation there?). There are some highbrow words and expressions going down here that sound so impressive, a little alienating perhaps but none-the-less impressive. Although I wouldn’t call myself a scientist I do find myself, in the main, admiring of their work and efforts.

Mrs Baggers sometimes expresses serious frustration at one area of her job… she is the HR Chief at a major (can’t reveal the nature of the foundation as it may give it away which will result in Mrs Baggers beating me with the blunt end of the dog) research foundation which funds the work of many, many scientists. This organisation is the biggest of his kind in the Southern Hemisphere. She says that working with scientists is difficult, eye-opening and very rewarding.

The difficulty is in the perceived arrogance/stubbornness and at times down right rudeness of the scientists (and they come from all ‘round the world, so little cultural bias) BUT it takes a certain kind of individual who can research and experiment for years with little ‘material’ success, so their problematic attitude/bedside manner has to be understood, not tolerated but understood. Years of being confined to labs etc and running very disciplined, repetitive tasks/tests takes a rare personality type. It’d be easy to see these folks as dogmatic and arrogant (and hence dismiss them on behaviour alone) when they insist on another squillion bucks to continue a research which is yielding little if any tangible results to date, yet, when and if successful the impact on humanity can be significant and profound – this is why they attract huge and consistent grants.

History is littered with mongrel persistent scientists who’ve laboured with myopic passion on an idea, alienated all around them and then come up with something that alters human history – Edison, Testla, Pasteur, Einstein, Dirac, Freud, Maslow… how many times did each fail or whose progress was painfully slow before the 100th or 1000th or 10000th monkey fell in place?

Think of any discovery/invention and it is likely there was an obsessed scientist (or team of scientists and assistants) hardly sleeping seeing it through. Scientists often experience greater scrutiny than any other profession, and if they fail then their funding is withdrawn and they’re in trouble (unlike politicians who can fail daily yet keep their jobs). So any wonder scientists become defensive, annoyed and obstropolous at anything else that claims instant success or unscientific criticism of their field of endeavour or claims to have all the answers!

However, without doubt, there are some who take the arrogance too far and become worlds unto themselves where anything that dares differ or not be supportive will be rejected out-of-hand. But to judge all for the errors of a few would be unfair or even stupid.
3141
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: SSM Plebiscite
I think Rees is smart enough and familiar enough with Sheldrake, both on a personal and professional level, to know that Sheldrake is a proponent of the "omnipotent, intelligent energy" God. I'm sure Rees knew exactly where Rupee was coming from.

If that's the case, then Rees is a goose. Must be one of these 'if I can't see it, smell it, hear it, touch it or taste it ... it doesn't exist' types. And there's no arguing with people like this... like fundamentalist (insert any religion) types - 'my frame of reference is all there is.' There are those of us who are happy to say, 'stuffed if I know', to not be threatened by ambiguity or mystery or even the unknowable.

There are many things in this experience called life that have a variety of modalities that attempt to help us explain and understand what is happening around us. From psychology, to logic, to spirituality, to science, to philosophy... and the list goes on. Each brings their own gifts and mysteries and even contradictions. Knowing when to discern is probably the key. So, in a way, we may agree PP... perhaps philosophically  ;) ;)
3142
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: SSM Plebiscite
why do you think it wasn’t investigated ?
The answer is that it was investigated but without a satisfactory conclusion. The models keep building upon the previous editions to explain the observed world.


Sheldrake talks about a chat he had with Lord Rees (aka Martin Rees, the current Astronomer Royal) regarding the multiverse. As an aside, most western world cosmologists now believe in the multiverse, for which there is no evidence. Anyway, Sheldrake made the point that this was a good example of Ockham's Razor, and that the science community was making a rod for its own back, by creating an infinite number of entities that it cannot and may never be able to explain. Rees said something like "wellI agree it's a bit of a problem, but this way, we can get rid of God !" Sheldrake then asked "so you would prefer to have quadrillions of unexplained universes to God ?" To which Rees replied "yes, it's much better, it's more scientific."

And there you have it.

That statement is incomplete and you cannot possibly draw any logical conclusion from it (ooo, there's another one to add to science, spirituality and philosophy - logic!). Why? It begs the question, 'What is Rees' definition/understanding of what God is?"

If Rees was talking about an Old Testament fire and brimstone malevolent man in the sky with a long white beard, well, then you can understand his comment. Better complex, mind-boggling options than that God. However, if he was talking about God as a metaphor for some mysterious, omnipotent, intelligent energy of some sort, then he's a goose. We just don't know until he clarifies what God is to him... didn't Sheldrake or someone else think to ask him this question?
3143
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: SSM Plebiscite
That’s philosophy Paul.
Science is observation and measurement and yes, even probabilities (a lesser but still important science)

Maybe one day we'll understand that science, philosophy and spirituality are all relevant to the human condition and each shouldn't attempt to protect its domain by invalidating the other based on their rules.

3144
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: SSM Plebiscite
His work has nothing to do with invalidating science - his work has to do with simultaneously getting materialist science to understand its limits and also to get materialist science to accept other valid ways of looking at the world, that lie outside its comfort zone.

Suggesting that science is based on ten dogmas that don't stand up to scrutiny seems pretty invalidating to me.
3145
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: SSM Plebiscite
Science is a human institution and a human creation like a lot of other things, and is therefore enmeshed in group dynamics, politics, peer group pressure, institutionalized bias etc., the same as any other human endeavour. To believe otherwise is IMO pure folly.

The term pseudoscience is absolutely intended as a negative slur, as though any information presented as such is the work of cranks, snake oil salesmen etc. It never occurs to materialist science that there may in fact be a limitation on their own methods of identification, measurement etc. that may preclude some very worthwhile aspects of knowledge from serious and worthwhile consideration. Some of the best aspects of being on this planet cannot be measured, they can only be lived and experienced.

I don't think it is either/or but rather both. There are some in the science community who are somewhat arrogant and label many things out of their domain as pseudoscience or similar. But perhaps the term pseudoscience is not a put down but rather a comment that puts it aside from the testing of more traditional science, at this time (plenty of pseudoscience eventually became reality... in time). There is much in this world that does not fit science models but that does not mean it is real. Sheldrake gets stuck in this idea that science is confined to 'materialism'. That's a pretty outdated idea. There has been plenty of scientific experimentation on what consciousness is, where the mind is and what it is, etc.

I got into an argument with a known 'skeptic' some time ago, someone who only 'worshiped' science and that if it wasn't scientifically provable then it aint real. I asked him if he loved his mother, he snapped back 'of course', I then asked him to prove it.
3146
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: SSM Plebiscite
It's interesting how followers of a dogma accuse science of being dogmatic, it seems impossible for many to separate their need for belief from scientific observation.

There is a general societal failure to understand the meaning of hypothesis and theory in a scientific context. Claiming that a scientific hypothesis or theory is about faith or belief is an error made from a dogmatic perspective, hypothesis built on faith would be examples of pseudoscience unproven or proven to be untestable or unmeasurable.

In science a hypothesis only becomes theory when the probability of it being true is very high, always after measurement and testing.

In dogma and in general society theory is widely misused, an idea which would more correctly be described as a claim without supporting evidence is frequently labeled a theory. It requires some faith or belief.

Science is not a belief system, belief has no part of science, and confidence in a scientific hypothesis is not about faith. An assertion can be made in science(Asking a question), choosing the assertion is not faith or belief base, because by default you must then test all cases supporting and counter to your assertion. In science an hypothesis is nothing more than a starting point, a starting point that may be based on some previous evidence but not necessarily, and a valid result in science can be either negative and positive.

If it is not measurable, testable and repeatable then it is not science, it is then a matter of faith. Phenomena that cannot be measured and tested has a high probability of not being real.

New Age has a horrendous history of misappropriation of terms like science, hypothesis and proof because many ideas proselytized are deliberately fashioned to be impossible to prove or disprove. By definition you might claim you cannot prove a negative result, in this regard those New Age ideas are nothing more than philosophical toys. Language gymnastics, not real science. We conduct this debate here in English, in other languages the terms might not even exists in which we can frame some of these pseudoscience issues, yet science's hypothesis, measurement and testing spans any language, the scientific method is not dependent on belief, faith, perspective or language.

Totally agree with DJC, you nailed it here, Spotted One.

PP, you mentioned Sheldrake... well I was one of the folks who got to see his talk on YouTube before TEDx took it down (but I think it is back up). I admit to not agreeing with Sheldrake early in his talk simply based on his 10 assumptions regarding science (their 'apparent' 10 dogmas). These spurious dogmas he came up with (as a way to invalidate science) were at least misleading and would in themselves not stand up to logical scrutiny... as they didn't and haven't.
3147
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: SSM Plebiscite
Exactly why attacking religion is wrong.  You want to attack the "CLERGY" of SPECIFIC religions and not religion itself.  As an orthodox christian, who donates what I wish, and receives nothing but spirituality in return, I resent anyone lumping religion into one category.  My local priest is a good family man, as the Greek Orthodox Church allows priests to be married and have their own church.  Our priest visits our family and knows and remembers everyone even though he is well into his 70's.  Where people use dogma to their own end, all they show you is how evil people can be.

Firstly, I should qualify what I am discussing when I use the word 'religion' in a negative way - Old Testament, fundamentalism, in fact any religion that sets itself above other religions/spiritualities and without whose blessing (due to unswerving loyalty) you'll be condemned to an existence of eternal suffering after death.

Secondly, 3 Leos, I absolutely do not want to offend you or call into question the validity of your commitment to your faith. There are many, many decent folks who do their religion/spirituality proud. Sadly, the same cannot be said of many in positions of power/control/leadership. So much good has been done at community level by Christians who seem to get 'spirituality' and go about their work without negative judgement and assessment and condemnation of those 'different' to them, or having a different 'faith' or no faith.

Thirdly, millions of people have had their lives devastated, in a myriad of ways, by religious teachings.

Fourthly, I'd like to be thought of as not 'attacking' religion but rather calling into question its validity and influence over the centuries, not to mention the whole idea of reverence, fear and obedience to an invisible 'man' in the sky.

My experiences and observations of fundamentalist interpretations of the Old Testament are that considerable power was and is placed in the hands of a few men at the top of the church tree. So many of these men were and are psychologically ill-equipped to have such control over peoples lives (and their subordinates - though the present day Pope seems different, he seems to be someone who understands spirituality... and humility). The literal interpretations/teachings (or manipulated misinterpretations) of the Old Testament are simply dangerous... as evidenced by the incredible guilt they embed in their followers, their reduction of women and demonizing of gay folks... not to mention violence toward those they deem 'unfit'...etc.

Abe Lincoln refused to belong to a church and when asked why, he replied, "I have never united myself to any church because I have found difficulty in giving my assent without mental reservation to the long complicated statements of Christian doctrine which characterize their articles of belief and confessions of faith. When any church will inscribe over its altar as the sole qualification for membership the Savior's condensed statement of the substance of both law and gospel: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy mind, and love thy neighbor as thyself," that church I will join with all my heart."

Even in 1860 Abe dared point out the hypocrisy of Christianity. (When Abe said the above he silenced the Archbishop who was in attendance and critical of his non attendance at church).

You use the word, 'evil' perhaps in a biblical sense (the devil etc) whereas I see evil as a human construct... but that is another huge topic on its own.
3148
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: SSM Plebiscite
Organised religion has evolved based on anthropocentrism, dualism and patriarchy.  The spirituality that underlies the various religions is actually pretty good IMO.

Couldn't agree more. In the words of Carl Jung, (paraphrased), 'religion gets in the way of spirituality/spiritual experiences.'
3149
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: SSM Plebiscite
People like Kate Jenkins are absolutely in a position to have more knowledge on these things than the average Joe.

You can take virtually any crime, be it white collar, blue collar, virtually any type of negative, anti social behaviour, and men will outnumber women as perpetrators, most of the time by significant margins. The article below is simply the tip of the information iceberg.

My personal view is that the big problem is that current model(s) of masculinity are extremely toxic and serve both men and women very poorly. But that's another topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime

Well said. The 'masculinity models' have been in dire need of overhaul for many centuries. Organised religion has much to answer for... but, as you might say, that's another topic for another day (along with the knuckle dragging machismo cultural influences).

Sorry Spotted One, but I have to disagree with you on, "...and heterosexual women do harass gay males, just as heterosexual males harass lesbians, they are real world events!" Nuh, you'll find far too many hetero males deriding gay women (out of abject ignorance) but seldom will you find hetero women being anything but engaging with gay males. It is one of those cliches that is, in the main, quite true. In fact I believe you'll find that women in general are far more accepting of and engaging with gay men and women (unless they've been indoctrinated by some fundamentalist religious claptrap).
3150
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: Knee replacements
@C4E

My late wife had two such operations performed a few years ago now by a very experienced surgeon who I believe is now retired. Her experiences were very positive in each case as she had severe arthritis which caused her a lot of pain and reduced her mobility significantly. These replacements changed her life and I am so pleased she got them so that she could better enjoy her remaining years. Some doctors advise patients to put it off as long as possible since they are only good for a limited time - my wife ignored that advice and in her case it paid off I guess.

So I would say yes but maybe the choice of surgeon is critical?

Sad to read that you lost your wife, Fluffy One. But glad that the surgery helped her to at least enjoy her remaining years.

When facing similar surgery I was told by the neurosurgeon to lose weight first, then see. It worked (had to cut back on the pies!!!). I have a rather nasty osteoarthritis in the right knee and lower back, and an extruded disc. But the knee does have a little cartilage. I shouldn't say this but thank the gods for Oxycontin/Oxycodone and good old Endone!

This is starting to sound like the conversations between my brother and I (he's a similar vintage)... "How's the back, not bad, how's the knee, not bad, how's the gout, not bad, how're the kidneys, on the improve, how's the liver, gave up the grog, how's the PTSD, nah so so, yours, nah experimenting with new medication..." (my bro also served in the RAN and has PTSD as well... coupla miserable pr1cks when we get together only rescued by our encourageable senses of humour).