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Messages - Lods

Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 16 2022 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs St Kilda
The old its never as good as it seems and its never as bad as it seems?

Pretty much.
It was a bit concerning last week to hear the commentary around the Freo game.
The question that was asked in just about every panel show was... Can the Blues win it....and the answers were usually...Yes they can!

While I think, and it's conventional wisdom, that you take the opportunity to play finals and win flags whenever you can I reckon we're probably still about 12 months off really challenging.
Playing finals, finishing top 4, would be great for the experience, and once you're there you never know.
But there's a part of me that feels that in the long run, the slow more sustainable build to that position is where we're heading.

Last night was a bit of a reality check.
Inaccuracy, the effect of injuries, being just that 5% off all take a toll.
We were the better side for large parts of the game, and on reflection there was lot of opportunities that went begging just because of a few a few crucial mistakes.
We lost it, as much as they won it.
It wasn't as bad as it might appear.
I'd be confident we'd have their measure with just a few of our injury inclusions.

Just on the defence.
We still haven't had a 100 points kicked against us by any side this year...and a fair bit of their score came late.
Defending wasn't really the problem last was more the attacking from defence that is usually a strong part of our game.
And a pretty shambolic and inaccurate forward line with a few players well down.
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 16 2022 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs St Kilda
A shootout!

It's one of those games where by rights there shouldn't be any thoughts of losing.
They're often the games that don't go as planned, and there's a fair bit of nervousness across Carlton fan social media.
It would be good to put it away early and have a relaxing night,
That's what a genuine top side would do with a game like this.
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: General Discussions

1. Context is this. They are human, they feel the way they do. It does not affect anyone else in society. So why push back? Accept and deal. (This is not directed at you, but society as a whole)

This recent debate probably started from a discussion regarding the fairness of transgender athletes competing in women's competition.
So in respect of that it's probably the fact that there may possibly be a disadvantage to a section of society...the female opponent of the transgender athlete.

That's the dilemma....
Equality of opportunity for the trans athlete v fairness for their possible female opponents and integrity of records.

I'm beginning to feel a bit like Baggers
It's a can of worms.

And perhaps it’s to the credit of female former high-level athletes that they don’t use their highly-honed techniques to dominate masters events too. Masters footy isn’t dominated by ex-AFL stars mainly because they don’t play Masters footy. Libba does and he was dominating in the 35s category when he was over 50. Not only did his technique serve him well, he was fitter than his opponents as well.

It's interesting...and I can only speak in terms of Masters Track and Field.
While that's only a small section of the sporting landscape  it is relevant from the point of view that most competition involving transgender athletes will be at that lower than elite, or at a community level.

I'd personally would love the opportunity to compete against a Daley Thompson or Bruce Jenner in Masters competition through their 40s, 50s and 60s.
I'd like to know whether that age factor narrowed a considerable gap between us.

But it's a fact that not many elite athletes compete in their later years.
I suspect that has a bit to do with not continuing with the sacrifices to training and competition they made at their peak, but also it's a case of 'been there done that'.

I know through discussions with female Masters athletes they'd also like to compete against champions of the past
Here's the thing though....
I'm not sure those same  female athletes in the womens 70-75 division would share that enthusiasm if Jenner was in the start lists.

But here's another complicating factor to consider....
From my understanding Jenner has taken medication and had some facial surgery but retains her male bits.
There's a very good chance she wouldn't meet the requirements for competition as a female transgender athlete.

A lot of organisations are now producing rules and standards for transgender competition.
Here's the most recent one for Track and Field.

Definition of Transgender

The term ‘Transgender’ is used in these Regulations to refer to individuals whose gender identity (i.e. how they identify) is different from the sex designated to them at birth, whether they are pre- or post-puberty, and whether or not they have undergone any form of medical intervention.

Participation is encouraged with conditions

World Athletics recognises that Transgender athletes may wish to compete in Athletics in accordance with their gender identity. World Athletics wishes to encourage and facilitate such participation, on conditions that go only so far as is necessary to protect the safety of all participants and to deliver on the promise of fair and meaningful competition offered by the division of the sport into male and female categories of competition.


Conditions of participation

A Transgender athlete who wishes to participate in an International Competition, or to be eligible to set a World Record in a competition that is not an International Competition, agrees, as a condition to such participation:

· To comply in full with these Regulations

· To cooperate promptly and in good faith with the Medical Manager and the Expert Panel in the discharge of their respective responsibilities under these Regulations, including providing them with all of the information and evidence they request to assess his/her compliance and/or monitor his/her continuing compliance with the eligibility conditions referred to in these Regulations;


Procedure for applying for eligibility: male transgender athletes

· A transgender male athlete must provide a written and signed declaration, in a form satisfactory to the Medical Manager, that his gender identity is male.

· As soon as reasonably practicable following receipt of such declaration, the Medical Manager will issue a written certification of that athlete’s eligibility to compete in the male category of competition in International Competition and to set a World Record in the male category in a competition that is not an International Competition.

Procedure for applying for eligibility: female transgender athletes

A transgender female athlete must meet the following to the satisfaction of an Expert Panel

· She must provide a written and signed declaration, in a form satisfactory to the Medical Manager, that her gender identity is female

· Along with this she must provide a comprehensive medical history

The Medical Manager will refer the file (in anonymised form) to the Expert Panel for assessment

· She must demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Expert Panel (on the balance of probabilities) that the concentration of testosterone in her serum has been less than 5 nmol/L3 continuously for a period of at least 12 months

· Also, she must keep her serum testosterone concentration below 5 nmol/L for

so long as she wishes to maintain her eligibility to compete in the female category of competition.

If the Expert Panel decides that the Transgender Female Eligibility Conditions have been met, the Medical Manager will issue a written certification of that athlete’s eligibility to compete in the female category of competition in International Competition (and to set a World Record in the female category in a competition that is not an International Competition).

That eligibility will be subject in every case to the athlete’s continuing satisfaction of the Transgender Female Eligibility Conditions, including continuously maintaining her serum testosterone at a concentration of less than 5 nmol/L.


The following are NOT required:

· Legal recognition of the athlete’s gender identity as the athlete’s sex

· Surgical anatomical changes

Clearly, although they state they encourage participation, such rules would be quite restrictive and even prohibitive for the average community athlete to comply with and are designed for international competition.
But there is an acknowledgement that there is some point where a transgender female athlete does have an advantage over their opposition and must take steps to enable eligibility.
No such regulations apply to the male transgender athlete.

That's just a snapshot of one sport.
Translate that over numerous sports and you get a feeling of some of the hurdles for transgender participation.

Here's one article that's very thorough, a bit wordy but puts into perspective the problems with the debate as the author seems to wrestle with their own thoughts on the issue.


Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 15 2022 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Fremantle
How many times have you seen someone wind up with a huge round arm spoil that could knock someone's head off, but the player still clunks the mark. Think Levi, when he got his hands to it, a bazooka couldn't dislodge it. Thats one reason why you can put it into the outer.

FWIW, i'm not sure why you are fixating on this rule. It might happen once a round. It doesn't hold up play or delay a game so why would you need to penalise it?

It does hold up play.
It causes a stoppage and a throw in.
If it was a free kick it might cause players to modify their spoiling and keep the ball in play.
At the very least redirect the spoil.
I think it probably happens much more than once a round.
Watch it in our next game.

I guess I'm fixating on it because it seems a bit inconsistent to penalise a 'dubious' deliberate out of bounds with a kick.
Yet a definite 'deliberate'  punch of the ball out of bounds is fine.

If we're going to seriously look at 'last touch' either by hand or foot then all these will be free kicks anyway under that rule.
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 15 2022 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Fremantle
I think i've heard this discussed by an umpire.

As mentioned, you intention is to spoil. It cannot be deliberate if its a spoil.

If you start paying that then you get players holding back on their spoils so they don't get pinged for deliberate, which means the ball is more likely to be marked.

Rather than worrying about introducing new rules like 'last touch', just enforce the rules as they are .
The onus should be on the spoiling player to make the spoil sure, but also keep the ball in play not deliberately knock it out of bounds.
There is a difference between a spoil that goes to ground and rolls out and one that gets deliberately knocked twenty metres into the stand.

18.5.1 Spirit and Intention
The Player whose sole objective is to contest or spoil a Mark shall be permitted to do so

Yep that's fair
The key words are "sole objective" and when you deliberately knock it over the line it's no longer a sole objective.
It becomes a spoil and a reset
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 15 2022 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Fremantle
Not sure if there is a written rule or not, but the logic follow this.
His intention was to spoil first and foremost, NOT hit the ball out of bounds.

As far as I can see it is not a rule.
I'll stand corrected if you can find it.

Often the intent of the spoiling player is obviously to force the ball out of play.

Rule 18.10.2 (b)  Kicks, Handballs or 'forces'  the football over the Boundary Line...

is a rule and seems quite clear.

It should be a free kick if the intention of the player  (in the opinion of the umpire) is to put the ball over the boundary line.

It happens every week.

Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 15 2022 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Fremantle
Agreed....imagine a defender going for a match saving spoil in the back pocket in the dying seconds of a game and be penalised because the ball goes out? Opponent gets a shot on goal....

This is one that actually confuses me.
Maybe I'm missing something.

If a player deliberately kicks a ball out of bounds it's a free kick.
If a player in attempting to spoil a mark knocks the ball out of play (often with obvious intent to find the boundary) it isn't.
The question is why?

18.10.1 Spirit and Intention
Players shall be encouraged to keep the football in play.
18.10.2 Free Kicks - Out of Bounds
A field Umpire shall award a Free Kick against a Player who:
(a) Kicks the football Out of Bounds On the Full;
(b) Kicks, Handballs or forces the football over the Boundary Line and
does not demonstrate sufficient intent to keep the football in play; or
(c) fails to immediately hand the football to the boundary Umpire or drop
the football directly to the ground once the football is Out of Bounds.
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 15 2022 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Fremantle
Adrian Barridge labelling SOS the newest sledging machine in the league.

I reckon that's pretty obvious. ;)  :)
I made a similar observation on page one of this thread.

I reckon Jack might not be the most popular bloke as far as the opposition is concerned.
He seems to get into a lot of 'discussions' ;D

He gets in more blues than Mike Tyson. ;D
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: General Discussions
I'm pretty confident Jenner could take on and defeat many of her male counterparts of a similar age.
In fact there are quite a few 'female at birth' athletes who could defeat male counterparts in masters competition.
While at the highest level there is a significant gap between men and women, as you drop down the performance lists these gaps between sexes often reduce.
It's often about technique at that age.
Jenner would retain or regain a lot of good technique.

The world records for women at Jenner's age level (70+) are actually quite modest for many events.
Even allowing for decreased performance as a result of transitioning, I could see probably half a dozen field/multi events where she could break world records.
It's probably to her credit she chooses not to.

(I will just add the qualifier that I'm not sure the full extent of Jenner's transition)
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: General Discussions
This is such a complicated issue and it's also one where it's a very individual experience.
The actual physical transitioning is only one aspect.
For many it's a relief and a release.
They may gain a feeling of 'normality' that didn't previously exist.
But, consider, for others it actually might not be the change that they hoped for, and existing troubles and feelings, don't just disappear.
The issues involved with identity changes and acceptances may present overwhelming challenges.

As a society we face the dilemma to provide the best possible support and understanding, but at the same time we have to be conscious that there may be a point where there needs to be restrictions, such as occur in sport,  that don't lead to others being unfairly disadvantaged.

Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 16 2022 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs St Kilda
So we move on...
Everything being well this is a game we should win.

There are a couple of issues we need to watch.
As much as the coaches will be aware of it, there will be an issue of keeping focus.
We'll get a fair few kudos in the AFL world this week.
Even if the players don't get too exposed to this publicity, they know they've done good.

Added to that....we played a very physical game yesterday.
We no doubt set ourselves for a big effort...and produced.
These things sometimes result in a bit of a let down in the following game.

Now some will suggest Voss and his coaching team won't let that happen.
But it's a test of progress.
Another challenge.
Another layer.
Hopefully we're up to the task.