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Re: General Discussions

Reply #930 –
Quote from: Mav on
How would an U/15 boys team fare against a VFLW squad if the players on the boys team had identical football experience as the women and the boys had all been castrated and injected with estrogen?
What if we first let the boys grow into men, become competitive in the male dominated environment, then send them through the transition process before entering the female competition?

If the transitioning process is so overtly dominant in it's effect, where are the cases going the other way, when do we get to see an adult female transition to  male and smash Kygrios at Wimbledon? ;)
The Force Awakens!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #931 –
I was taking your example. As you note, it wasn’t a very good one.

I’m open to scientific argument but not unscientific what-ifs. I assume the only thing that would be retained in a transition is skeletal development. At least in the next few years, the skills development and game awareness of males transitioning would be better too, but in future generations that disparity will likely be absent. I also assume musculature and bulk would diminish after a transition and after a while there would be no advantage there compared to females of the same dimensions. I’m happy to revise those assumptions if they are disproved scientifically.

Female footy at the moment doesn’t attract the tallest women as much as it will when the AFLW competition matures. When it does, tall men who transition will be up against well-trained Lauren Jackson and Liz Cambage types and only the best tall transgender players will be able to compete successfully. The alarmist fears that plodders like us will decide to transition when we’re 18 so we can dominate the AFLW will not come to pass. As we know from the AFL, tall spuds have a poor track history. The same applies at lower levels too.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #932 –
Quote from: Baggers on
I strongly suggest you have a chat with someone who has successfully and happily (often the case) transitioned to their wanted gender. And really listen to what they went through in their life and why.

Baggers, you've made an assumption.  How do you know i haven't?  I'm sensitive enough to the plight of these people to discuss this stuff on an anonymous forum, rather than actually have that discussion and try and break a person's world in front of them.

The reality is that there is no objective way to really prove that a person was born in the wrong body, because the only thing that separates a man and a woman is biology.

Think about it, what does it mean to be a woman vs a man?

Its not about interests, its not about attire, its not about clothing, its not about behaviour, it's not about sexual orientation, it's not about jobs, its not about anything.  Every thing that is male or female is simply a gender construct.  Even trans is a construct.

Dani Laidley doesn't prove anything.  None of the famous athletes that transition proves anything.  All it shows is that societal trends are changing and these people are unhappy with their identity and looking to change it.

Id rather ask why they're unhappy and not look for a "gender disphoria" diagnosis.  Id rather understand why they're unhappy and highlight that becoming transgender won't change their biological make up.  Accepting that its not changing is part of the healing process that isn't happening IMHO.  its all very symptomatic of a society that is breeding a "ill get what I want thanks" mentality.

https://youtu.be/oqMl5CRoFdk

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: General Discussions

Reply #933 –
Quote from: Mav on
I’m open to scientific argument but not unscientific what-ifs.
What-ifs are called hypotheticals, and they form the basis of most of the arguments that are made law.
 
Most of the debate is political and social biased, I can't take it seriously and it's laughable to accept everyone involved in the process is altruistic but only if they come from one side of the debate, in fact it is quite the opposite and it's truly a case of how both sides of this debate can be disingenuous.

It will be interesting to see what happens when a professional female athlete transitions to male, then decides that they still want to compete against the girls after the effects of all those treatments, many treatments which are currently banned as performance enhancing apparently, but maybe only banned if you are not transitioning! ;)

The Force Awakens!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #934 –
Quote from: Mav on
I also assume musculature and bulk would diminish after a transition and after a while there would be no advantage there compared to females of the same dimensions.
Hannah Mouncey says hello!

Just a shadow of her former self, looks like by the time she is 50 or so she will be barely able to compete! :o

Of course Hannah is only one person, ................. but then again for some sports that is all it takes to dominate ... would Hannah have displaced Tayla if if she was on our list, would Hannah be in the highest category of earners, if so at the expense of who's daughter, sister, wife or girlfriend!

It was interesting hearing Jenner call out this bullcrap, and she was immediately roasted by her own community, stating that even after transition she could put on the athletics gear and still defeat most of her equivalent male counterparts. But we probably can't take her word for it, maybe she is unscientific!

That double standard, the ability to flip or turn on an ally, it seems common in many of the fringe debates, you're either for us or you're against us!
The Force Awakens!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #935 –
I'm pretty confident Jenner could take on and defeat many of her male counterparts of a similar age.
In fact there are quite a few 'female at birth' athletes who could defeat male counterparts in masters competition.
While at the highest level there is a significant gap between men and women, as you drop down the performance lists these gaps between sexes often reduce.
It's often about technique at that age.
Jenner would retain or regain a lot of good technique.

The world records for women at Jenner's age level (70+) are actually quite modest for many events.
Even allowing for decreased performance as a result of transitioning, I could see probably half a dozen field/multi events where she could break world records.
It's probably to her credit she chooses not to.

(I will just add the qualifier that I'm not sure the full extent of Jenner's transition)
 

Re: General Discussions

Reply #936 –
And perhaps it’s to the credit of female former high-level athletes that they don’t use their highly-honed techniques to dominate masters events too. Masters footy isn’t dominated by ex-AFL stars mainly because they don’t play Masters footy. Libba does and he was dominating in the 35s category when he was over 50. Not only did his technique serve him well, he was fitter than his opponents as well.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #937 –
Quote from: LP on
Hannah Mouncey says hello!
Here's an update on your photo:
 

I wonder whether the photographer who took the photo you put up waited for a mismatch before taking the shot. After all, we know that Mouncey was forced to play in a lower league, so it wouldn't have been too long before she was in frame with some skinny kid who could paint a David & Goliath story for the reader. Just for comparison, one girl in the Western Jets U/19s team this year measured all of 148cm!!!

But I wonder whether the photographer would have wanted to photograph Mouncey alongside Sharni Layton. Remember that Sharni Layton is only 188cm even though she rucked. But guess what Mouncey's height is. You guessed it! 188cm.

Wouldn't it be funny if Mouncey was photographed alongside Liz Cambage at 203 cm or Lauren Jackson at 196cm? That probably wouldn't have helped the story the photographer was trying to illustrate, though, would it?

You seem to think that anecdotal evidence is scientific evidence. It isn't. In fact, I'd take anecdotal evidence in preference to the picture you put up which is nothing but cherry picking.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #938 –
Mouncey is a almost a complete man physically imho regardless of what appendages she has had added or removed or what hormone treatments she is on. You cant have 22 transgender formerly male athletes taking the field vs a 22 player all womens team for example and calling that safe or fair.
We are talking open contact sports, not tennis, not high jump or sprints, table tennis, swimming, lawn bowls etc but open contact sport where size matters and people get hurt.
Yep Cambage is big and so is Lauren Jackson but if you want to see them badly hurt and slaughtered on a basketball court then stick them in vs their NBA equivalent males and see what happens.
The quickest female bowlers in test cricket rocket in between 125-128k.....are we going to allow a transgender Mitch Starc to start playing womens test cricket and rolling them down at 150k, do we want to get someone badly hurt or worse...?
Rule 1 is common sense, for high level contact sports its a no brainer IMHO and transgender athletes have to compete in their birth sex comps or transgender comps.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #939 –
Quote from: Thryleon on
The science will actually prove that biology made an error here and I think being born with a tail is very different to a subjective opinion of being a male born in a female body or vice versa.

The reason why I am quick to dismiss it is actually quite scientific.  Feelings are subjective, and not objective, and there is no objective evidence that the body is wrong when the brain thinks it is.

Ok, so what about those people who are born with both 'bits'?
Can they 'choose' what they wanna be?

There is a video or 2 of some Ted talks posted in the topic by someone who is exactly that.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #940 –
Would a castrated Mitchell Starc who underwent a course of estrogen injections still bowl at 150 km/h? If the answer is yes, then why does WADA ban steroids and testosterone as PEDs?

Re: General Discussions

Reply #941 –
Quote from: kruddler on
Ok, so what about those people who are born with both 'bits'?
Can they 'choose' what they wanna be?

There is a video or 2 of some Ted talks posted in the topic by someone who is exactly that.

...the TED talks on this topic are excellent. Good pick-up/point, K.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: General Discussions

Reply #942 –
Quote from: kruddler on
Ok, so what about those people who are born with both 'bits'?
Can they 'choose' what they wanna be?

There is a video or 2 of some Ted talks posted in the topic by someone who is exactly that.

I have watched the talks.  You can't throw a blanket over everyone but those people with both bits you mention aren't trans or don't fit that gender construct.

I watched the talks.  Saw them from start to finish.  Have had these conversations with people.  For something that is supposedly based on science a lot of it based on subjective opinion of "im in the wrong body".  The woman born with gonads is clearly not in that category.

You'll also note that identity politics is a bigger part of this than the I was born in an ambiguous body.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: General Discussions

Reply #943 –
Quote from: Mav on
Would a castrated Mitchell Starc who underwent a course of estrogen injections still bowl at 150 km/h? If the answer is yes, then why does WADA ban steroids and testerone as PEDs?
If former male transgender athletes were allowed to play female sports like test cricket it's doubtful that normal female born athletes would be able to make the team such would be the advantage the former male transgender athletes would have.
A castrated Mitch Starc  bowling at 140k would be too much for the normal female used to 125k thunderbolts.


Re: General Discussions

Reply #944 –
So gender reassignment would only cost Starc 10 km/h? Is there some research that justifies that assumption? Could it be he'd drop 20 km/h or more? Could gender reassignment force Starc to alter his bowling action and make it hard for him to generate late swing at the lower top pace?

And when do you think that all the best male bowlers in the world are going to transition just so they can star as women? This is a scare campaign which is laughable on its face.