General Discussions

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Re: General Discussions

Reply #1755 – December 22, 2023, 04:43:28 pm

Quote from: Gointocarlton on December 22, 2023, 04:35:12 pm

If a person can be charged with rape when all that's known is that two people walked into an office, the law is stuffed in my opinion.

I can't tell you what happened, nobody outside of those two know.

But Lehrmann is still in the country, while Higgins has taken a massive public purse payout and scarpered, it's leaving a bad taste!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1756 – December 22, 2023, 05:05:46 pm

Quote from: LP on December 22, 2023, 04:43:28 pm

I can't tell you what happened, nobody outside of those two know.

But Lehrmann is still in the country, while Higgins has taken a massive public purse payout and scarpered, it's leaving a bad taste!

Yep, what a mess; a circus. I think I'll defer to the assessments of the judge in the present case, where he has said that neither of Numbnuts nor Princess is particularly reliable as a witness! Both flawed.

However, regardless, alleged rape is about as serious a crime as it gets. But, tragically (for either Princess or Numbnuts), this case has blurs and greys all over the shop: Alcohol, delayed reporting, reported plying Princess with grog, cocaine, payouts before legal proof/trial, careers ruined, ministers under all manner of suspicious clouds, media people evangelizing and showboating, premature judgements... What a rats nest parliament must be!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1757 – December 22, 2023, 10:44:37 pm

Quote from: Baggers on December 22, 2023, 05:05:46 pm

Yep, what a mess; a circus. I think I'll defer to the assessments of the judge in the present case, where he has said that neither of Numbnuts nor Princess is particularly reliable as a witness! Both flawed.

If Lehrmann gets a big damages pay-out as well, have they both played everybody, I wouldn't be surprised to find out one day it was so?

What if the only victim here was the general public, Higgins and Lehrmann get payouts, Wilkinson and Ten gets publicity, and profit, whether we are watching their pain or watching their victory we are still watching and they have already made far more than any pitiful amount they are forced to pay!

A court case including a fleet of lawyers might actually be cheaper to produce than any real show!

Sounds like paranoia doesn't it, ................... but is it?

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1758 – December 22, 2023, 11:02:39 pm

Quote from: Baggers on December 22, 2023, 05:05:46 pm

Yep, what a mess; a circus. I think I'll defer to the assessments of the judge in the present case, where he has said that neither of Numbnuts nor Princess is particularly reliable as a witness! Both flawed.

However, regardless, alleged rape is about as serious a crime as it gets. But, tragically (for either Princess or Numbnuts), this case has blurs and greys all over the shop: Alcohol, delayed reporting, reported plying Princess with grog, cocaine, payouts before legal proof/trial, careers ruined, ministers under all manner of suspicious clouds, media people evangelizing and showboating, premature judgements... What a rats nest parliament must be!

Dont underestimate the role said Princess's boyfriend has played in all this. Seems like a bigger grub than Wilkinson.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1759 – December 23, 2023, 12:24:05 am

Quote from: Gointocarlton on December 22, 2023, 04:35:12 pm

My point is on the basis of the evidence that appears to been presented, if I was in the jury, I could not find him guilty. Unfortunately for Higgins, she didn't report into to a police station or a hospital the morning after to be properly interviewed and importantly tested.
If a person can be charged with rape when all that's known is that two people walked into an office, the law is stuffed in my opinion.

Perhaps he's just the type of bloke that women like to accuse of raping them ... or he's a rapist.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/breaking-news/bruce-lehrmann-charged-with-rape-in-toowoomba-over-2021-alleged-incident/news-story/09b77ddd1f4c717fb69fe2ed51c06d13

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1760 – December 23, 2023, 01:08:08 am

Regardless of these specific cases, money should not be an option for settlement, or it becomes yet another motive.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1761 – December 23, 2023, 07:07:20 am

Quote from: DJC on December 23, 2023, 12:24:05 am

Perhaps he's just the type of bloke that women like to accuse of raping them ... or he's a rapist.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/breaking-news/bruce-lehrmann-charged-with-rape-in-toowoomba-over-2021-alleged-incident/news-story/09b77ddd1f4c717fb69fe2ed51c06d13

Or perhaps its just another case with no evidence or everyone woman he has ever gone near will come out and acuse him of rape. If I remember correctly, they met at a strip club and she took him to her place?

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1762 – December 23, 2023, 08:03:47 am

My opinions on these cases are probably influenced a bit by my own career experiences.
Working for a child welfare department I spent six years at a receiving and assessment centre for wards of the state.
It was a place where children up to 18 first came after removal from their parents or 'carers'
The tales of neglect, physical and sexual abuse were horrific.
Unfortunately these residential/institutional settings also attracted amongst it's work force the occasional predator.
Complaints of physical and sexual abuse against staff were not uncommon.
We've seen some of the results of that following the royal comission which resulted in charges relating to historic sexual abuse of children in institutional settings.
I have no 'truck' with abusers of any kind.
Sexual abuse is the worst thing a person can experience short of murder.

But there is another side to the story.
What happens to the alleged abuser who is actually innocent.
Your career, your reputation, family connections, life as you know it can be destroyed by such accusations.
Even if you're found innocent by the courts it's something that hangs there over your head and there will always be folks who make their own judgement on your guilt or innocence.
Guilty or innocent....Life will never be the same.

Even so it's the courts who must be the final judge.
Higgins is entitled to tell her side of the story.
Accusations such as this are not made lightly.
It takes a lot of balancing of the consequences to decide whether to proceed.
On the other hand Lehrmann is entitled to a presumption of innocence until the matter is decided.
Each case need to be judged on it's merits.
The Toowomba case has no bearing at present.
From what's been revealed it's going to be a difficult one to judge.
It may indicate a pattern of behaviour, but it's also yet to be proved.

As the original case progressed I couldn't help but shake my head as inappropriate comments and judgements were made by various people right up to the PM.
I'm not sure who was advising Ms Higgins but I suspect she didn't always follow that advice in some of her public comments outside the court.
The system won't always get it right, but it has to be followed....and this case went completely off the rails.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1763 – December 23, 2023, 08:46:48 am

Quote from: Gointocarlton on December 23, 2023, 07:07:20 am

Or perhaps its just another case with no evidence or everyone woman he has ever gone near will come out and acuse him of rape. If I remember correctly, they met at a strip club and she took him to her place?

I'm not saying he raped Higgins but I don't believe his version that nothing happened.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1764 – December 23, 2023, 11:19:50 am

Quote from: Gointocarlton on December 23, 2023, 07:07:20 am

Or perhaps its just another case with no evidence or everyone woman he has ever gone near will come out and acuse him of rape. If I remember correctly, they met at a strip club and she took him to her place?

In fact, Lehrmann (who called himself Bryce) took her to his friend's house where she apparently passed out after too much alcohol. Familiar modus operandi?

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1765 – December 23, 2023, 12:34:57 pm

Quote from: Gointocarlton on December 23, 2023, 07:07:20 am

Or perhaps its just another case with no evidence or everyone woman he has ever gone near will come out and acuse him of rape. If I remember correctly, they met at a strip club and she took him to her place?

I can't comment on specific cases, and this comment has nothing to do with the current cases, but it's become clear over the recent past decade or so that being a victim is a way of improving your media profile. The #MeToo aspect has become ludicrous, and it makes a mockery of the legal system as lawyers rake in the dollar$ with trivial accusations and even less evidence.

Until cash settlements are banned, until false accusers face prosecution or ramifications for their actions, things will only get worse.

I regularly read do-gooders claiming nobody "wants that type of publicity", that's complete bullsh1t statement, these do-gooders must be multimedia luddites. I'm not even sure if the narcissists can read the words that accompany their front page photo, male or female. they just gaze at the image like a mirror and imagine collecting clicks and cash.

It's not just the legal realm this is happening in, we see it in politics as well, especially the politics of the post truth era!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1766 – December 23, 2023, 12:48:20 pm

PS; The lip reading stuff is complete sh1zen, probably worse than opinion because when they framed questions to the "expert lip reader" they did so with bias.

I know someone who signs professionally for deaf people, in lectures, at meetings, in interviews negotiations. She will tell you that the reason she signs is because lip reading is next to useless between strangers.

Lip reading friends and family is a different matter, but even then lip reading is still not perfect, and to get it reliable you have to be physically close to the person you're trying to read, familiar with their speech patterns(as in regular conversations with friends or family), exactly face to face, and completely free of other distractions.

The truth about lip reading is that you're not just reading lips, the term itself is deceptive. You read lips, mouth speed, tongue movements, facial expressions, twitches, eyes and pretty everything else in terms of subtle gestures and body movement that become unintelligible at more than 2m or 3m away!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1767 – December 23, 2023, 01:07:14 pm

Quote from: LP on December 22, 2023, 04:43:28 pm

I can't tell you what happened, nobody outside of those two know.

But Lehrmann is still in the country, while Higgins has taken a massive public purse payout and scarpered, it's leaving a bad taste!

If you listen to Higgins, the only one person knows what happened, and it wasn't her.

I was amazed to hear that the cameras suggest that Lehrmann only bought Higgins two drinks!

I have no idea what happened back there, but when it came down to two people arguing about what happened with no corroborating evidence, the result is never going to be satisfactory.
That people, especially in the media and in politics, decide to use such things for their benefit no longer surprises me, but it does disappoint me. It certainly makes getting real justice extremely difficult.

If I were Higgins and I thought I had been raped, I wouldn't bring it up days later; I'd be heading to the police to get evidence ASAP! The only way to be sure if for there to be evidence, not innuendo.
Maybe my being male colours my opinion, but ...

Lehrmann's life has been ruined; he has no chance of ever getting anywhere.
As for Higgins, she may have got a payout, but her future isn't looking rosy either.
The lawyers, on the other hand, may as well order their next Mercedes or two, because the money is certainly heading their way.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1768 – December 23, 2023, 06:00:26 pm

I watched the footage of what happened at parliament house.

Ignoring the hyperbole, what on earth were they doing heading back to work together? Something about keys and what not. It doesn't add up.

To me we may have seen the equivalent of blurred goggles regret or perhaps trying to stave off the embarrassment of being found out? At work? Perhaps this was misconduct and to try and save face rape became the allegation?

Who knows for sure. Not me. All I know, is that I know nothing.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1769 – December 23, 2023, 06:12:00 pm

Quote from: crashlander on December 23, 2023, 01:07:14 pm

If you listen to Higgins, the only one person knows what happened, and it wasn't her.

I was amazed to hear that the cameras suggest that Lehrmann only bought Higgins two drinks!

I have no idea what happened back there, but when it came down to two people arguing about what happened with no corroborating evidence, the result is never going to be satisfactory.
That people, especially in the media and in politics, decide to use such things for their benefit no longer surprises me, but it does disappoint me. It certainly makes getting real justice extremely difficult.

If I were Higgins and I thought I had been raped, I wouldn't bring it up days later; I'd be heading to the police to get evidence ASAP! The only way to be sure if for there to be evidence, not innuendo.
Maybe my being male colours my opinion, but ...

Lehrmann's life has been ruined; he has no chance of ever getting anywhere.
As for Higgins, she may have got a payout, but her future isn't looking rosy either.
The lawyers, on the other hand, may as well order their next Mercedes or two, because the money is certainly heading their way.

With respect Crash, you’re unlikely to be in a position where you have to decide whether to report a rape.

One of my sisters was raped. She told me about it many years later and explained why reporting it wasn’t an option; fear of reprisals, shame, questioning by male police, going to court with male judges and lawyers, embarrassing the family …

The judge in this case is convinced that neither Higgins nor Lehrmann has been totally honest. It will come down to whether the judge accepts that intercourse took place. If he does, Lehrmann is screwed.