If he was sooky and petulant, he obviously learned from the master.
In my day if you were sooky and petulant, it got sorted out pretty quickly by a few belts around the ears. ;D
THAT's the 'Leading Teams' I remember. ;D
Yep . In the good old 60s you wouldn't be game to whinge , or you would be damn soon sorted out .
They've got a bit too " precious " these days .
In my day if you were sooky and petulant, it got sorted out pretty quickly by a few belts around the ears. ;D
So you got a few did you Gozza.... I didn't get any. :D
Kids are well trained in tactics to deal with bullying, and what you describe as the old ways is now nothing more than bullying. It doesn't work with young men anymore, they are too well educated and socially connected.
Anyone thinking they can go down that path will quickly find themselves redundant like Pagan!
There is no respect earned through abuse!
In my day if you were sooky and petulant, it got sorted out pretty quickly by a few belts around the ears. ;D
So you got a few did you Gozza.... I didn't get any. :D
Yes, and it shows. ;D :P
With a name like Bratblue perhaps there should have been a couple!!! :))
Kids are well trained in tactics to deal with bullying, and what you describe as the old ways is now nothing more than bullying. It doesn't work with young men anymore, they are too well educated and socially connected.
Anyone thinking they can go down that path will quickly find themselves redundant like Pagan!
There is no respect earned through abuse!
I wonder if Barass or Lethal used to give a few out. ;D
Kids are well trained in tactics to deal with bullying, and what you describe as the old ways is now nothing more than bullying. It doesn't work with young men anymore, they are too well educated and socially connected.
Anyone thinking they can go down that path will quickly find themselves redundant like Pagan!
There is no respect earned through abuse!
Read this. http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/life/swedens-liberal-parents-spoil-children-rotten-20131102-2wtjy.html
Have a wee think about it and tell me why social engineering isn't to blame, along with the warped media, in screwing up today's youth. I can guarantee you that my kids are one of the best behaved, well mannered and happiest out of all their friends. Why? Because they have boundaries that are non negotiable, they know to behave, they get rewarded for doing tasks around the house. If they cross the line they punished and yes..I have belted my kids and will continue to do so. Has to be done. The threat alone keeps them in toe now 99% of the time. The bastard who thought that parents should negotiate with immature minds should be put on trial.
The best line in that Article is that a family is not a democracy. Brilliant. Between my wife and I, those kids have respect and if that is tinged with fear..they'll thank me later when they see their friends treat their parents like crap and shake their own heads. Friends to my kids, yes, but Dad first.
Read this. http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/life/swedens-liberal-parents-spoil-children-rotten-20131102-2wtjy.html
Have a wee think about it and tell me why social engineering isn't to blame, along with the warped media, in screwing up today's youth. I can guarantee you that my kids are one of the best behaved, well mannered and happiest out of all their friends. Why? Because they have boundaries that are non negotiable, they know to behave, they get rewarded for doing tasks around the house. If they cross the line they punished and yes..I have belted my kids and will continue to do so. Has to be done. The threat alone keeps them in toe now 99% of the time. The bastard who thought that parents should negotiate with immature minds should be put on trial.
The best line in that Article is that a family is not a democracy. Brilliant. Between my wife and I, those kids have respect and if that is tinged with fear..they'll thank me later when they see their friends treat their parents like crap and shake their own heads. Friends to my kids, yes, but Dad first.
Woodstock that is a top post, awesome, totally agree !!!!!
I have an apprentice employed to me who has been a complete pain in the arse during his first year. Three warnings from the General manager have been followed by a last chance revelation from me have suddenly turned this kid into one of my greatest assets. His talent was always there, but attitude was a major stumbling block and that's indicative of the current crop of young people entering the work force I'm afraid.
Kids are well trained in tactics to deal with bullying, and what you describe as the old ways is now nothing more than bullying. It doesn't work with young men anymore, they are too well educated and socially connected.
Anyone thinking they can go down that path will quickly find themselves redundant like Pagan!
There is no respect earned through abuse!
Read this. http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/life/swedens-liberal-parents-spoil-children-rotten-20131102-2wtjy.html
Have a wee think about it and tell me why social engineering isn't to blame, along with the warped media, in screwing up today's youth. I can guarantee you that my kids are one of the best behaved, well mannered and happiest out of all their friends. Why? Because they have boundaries that are non negotiable, they know to behave, they get rewarded for doing tasks around the house. If they cross the line they punished and yes..I have belted my kids and will continue to do so. Has to be done. The threat alone keeps them in toe now 99% of the time. The bastard who thought that parents should negotiate with immature minds should be put on trial.
The best line in that Article is that a family is not a democracy. Brilliant. Between my wife and I, those kids have respect and if that is tinged with fear..they'll thank me later when they see their friends treat their parents like crap and shake their own heads. Friends to my kids, yes, but Dad first.
BANG! Right there.
Kids are well trained in tactics to deal with bullying, and what you describe as the old ways is now nothing more than bullying. It doesn't work with young men anymore, they are too well educated and socially connected.
Anyone thinking they can go down that path will quickly find themselves redundant like Pagan!
There is no respect earned through abuse!
Read this. http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/life/swedens-liberal-parents-spoil-children-rotten-20131102-2wtjy.html
Have a wee think about it and tell me why social engineering isn't to blame, along with the warped media, in screwing up today's youth. I can guarantee you that my kids are one of the best behaved, well mannered and happiest out of all their friends. Why? Because they have boundaries that are non negotiable, they know to behave, they get rewarded for doing tasks around the house. If they cross the line they punished and yes..I have belted my kids and will continue to do so. Has to be done. The threat alone keeps them in toe now 99% of the time. The bastard who thought that parents should negotiate with immature minds should be put on trial.
The best line in that Article is that a family is not a democracy. Brilliant. Between my wife and I, those kids have respect and if that is tinged with fear..they'll thank me later when they see their friends treat their parents like crap and shake their own heads. Friends to my kids, yes, but Dad first.
Genuinely shocked, and disappointed at what I just read.
There is a plethora of anecdotal evidence to support both arguments - to spank or not to spank. This issue is far greater and way more important than anecdotal stories.
But if you want anecdotal, then I will meet your anecdotal and raise you an anecdotal… I have 2 daughters who were never spanked, which to me, if I had, would have been physical abuse. Today, they are both terrific 'citizens'. They were both set strong and clear boundaries... enforced by voice, example and non-negotiable rewards and punishments (never physical. Boundaries is the key).
A child’s body (indeed, all people), is sacrosanct.
Too many of us are the parents that our parents were. Well, not here. My sister, brother and I were disciplined in the good old Catholic way... spare the rod and spoil the child. Watching my sister, deeply distressed, at age 14, whilst my father 'spanked' her was traumatic. She learned nothing from his 'hiding'... other than shame. Yes, I know, anecdotal… but I know what his hidings did to my sister (and me).
For any human being to believe that striking another person is good for them; will help them, is
obscene and ridiculous. The only thing violence teaches is that violence will get you what you want by force... and that lesson is all around us and contributes significantly to so many social issues.
Please do not confuse my comments with some flowery 60s or Swedish understanding that kids should be regarded as adult and given no discipline and just allowed to develop and grow on their own – rubbish. Boundaries are the key, but how you enforce these boundaries says more about you than your kids – if you need to resort to violence (hitting) to get obedience, then you have failed. You are the adult. You have the big brain. Use it.
For any human being to believe that striking another person is good for them; will help them, is obscene and ridiculous. The only thing violence teaches is that violence will get you what you want by force... and that lesson is all around us and contributes significantly to so many social issues.
Disagree.
Nothing sorts things out quicker. Generally the times I've done it...the people causing the problems have farked off very quickly and no more trouble.
Or perhaps I need some aversion therapy to violence like young Alex. ;D
So, if I beat you to stop you drinking, you will stop (drinking)?
Genuinely shocked, and disappointed at what I just read.
There is a plethora of anecdotal evidence to support both arguments - to spank or not to spank. This issue is far greater and way more important than anecdotal stories.
But if you want anecdotal, then I will meet your anecdotal and raise you an anecdotal… I have 2 daughters who were never spanked, which to me, if I had, would have been physical abuse. Today, they are both terrific 'citizens'. They were both set strong and clear boundaries... enforced by voice, example and non-negotiable rewards and punishments (never physical. Boundaries is the key).
A child’s body (indeed, all people), is sacrosanct.
Too many of us are the parents that our parents were. Well, not here. My sister, brother and I were disciplined in the good old Catholic way... spare the rod and spoil the child. Watching my sister, deeply distressed, at age 14, whilst my father 'spanked' her was traumatic. She learned nothing from his 'hiding'... other than shame. Yes, I know, anecdotal… but I know what his hidings did to my sister (and me).
For any human being to believe that striking another person is good for them; will help them, is obscene and ridiculous. The only thing violence teaches is that violence will get you what you want by force... and that lesson is all around us and contributes significantly to so many social issues.
Please do not confuse my comments with some flowery 60s or Swedish understanding that kids should be regarded as adult and given no discipline and just allowed to develop and grow on their own – rubbish. Boundaries are the key, but how you enforce these boundaries says more about you than your kids – if you need to resort to violence (hitting) to get obedience, then you have failed. You are the adult. You have the big brain. Use it.
Baggers, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but calling someone else's opinion "obscene and ridiculous" simply because it does not line up with your own opinion is IMO not playing the ball or fair to other people sharing their thoughts and opinions about this topic.
Yes I believe that there is far too much physical abuse(disguised as discipline) between parents and children. How ever, I personally was physically, but lovingly disciplined as a kid, and I never had a problem with how or why said discipline was meted out! And when done correctly I believe corporal punishment is a very effective method of discipline.
Genuinely shocked, and disappointed at what I just read.
There is a plethora of anecdotal evidence to support both arguments - to spank or not to spank. This issue is far greater and way more important than anecdotal stories.
But if you want anecdotal, then I will meet your anecdotal and raise you an anecdotal… I have 2 daughters who were never spanked, which to me, if I had, would have been physical abuse. Today, they are both terrific 'citizens'. They were both set strong and clear boundaries... enforced by voice, example and non-negotiable rewards and punishments (never physical. Boundaries is the key).
A child’s body (indeed, all people), is sacrosanct.
Too many of us are the parents that our parents were. Well, not here. My sister, brother and I were disciplined in the good old Catholic way... spare the rod and spoil the child. Watching my sister, deeply distressed, at age 14, whilst my father 'spanked' her was traumatic. She learned nothing from his 'hiding'... other than shame. Yes, I know, anecdotal… but I know what his hidings did to my sister (and me).
For any human being to believe that striking another person is good for them; will help them, is obscene and ridiculous. The only thing violence teaches is that violence will get you what you want by force... and that lesson is all around us and contributes significantly to so many social issues.
Please do not confuse my comments with some flowery 60s or Swedish understanding that kids should be regarded as adult and given no discipline and just allowed to develop and grow on their own – rubbish. Boundaries are the key, but how you enforce these boundaries says more about you than your kids – if you need to resort to violence (hitting) to get obedience, then you have failed. You are the adult. You have the big brain. Use it.
Baggers, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but calling someone else's opinion "obscene and ridiculous" simply because it does not line up with your own opinion is IMO not playing the ball or fair to other people sharing their thoughts and opinions about this topic.
Yes I believe that there is far too much physical abuse(disguised as discipline) between parents and children. How ever, I personally was physically, but lovingly disciplined as a kid, and I never had a problem with how or why said discipline was meted out! And when done correctly I believe corporal punishment is a very effective method of discipline.
I stand by my opinion that the proposition of striking another human-being can 'be good for them'... it is an obscene and ridiculous proposition.
Strict, clear and even rigid boundaries are important for our kids and will help them understand life on so many levels. My daughters, to this day, describe me as being a really strict parent... but never abusive or angry. Hitting is abuse. The moment you strike a child you have lost control.
I have had people say to me in regard to this stance, "I was disciplined with corporal punish and it didn't do me any harm." What a ridiculous statement. How would you know unless you led parallel lives of the spanked and not spanked?! That is the only way you could possibly know.
Please explain to me how corporal punishment can be 'done correctly?'
Genuinely shocked, and disappointed at what I just read.
There is a plethora of anecdotal evidence to support both arguments - to spank or not to spank. This issue is far greater and way more important than anecdotal stories.
But if you want anecdotal, then I will meet your anecdotal and raise you an anecdotal… I have 2 daughters who were never spanked, which to me, if I had, would have been physical abuse. Today, they are both terrific 'citizens'. They were both set strong and clear boundaries... enforced by voice, example and non-negotiable rewards and punishments (never physical. Boundaries is the key).
A child’s body (indeed, all people), is sacrosanct.
Too many of us are the parents that our parents were. Well, not here. My sister, brother and I were disciplined in the good old Catholic way... spare the rod and spoil the child. Watching my sister, deeply distressed, at age 14, whilst my father 'spanked' her was traumatic. She learned nothing from his 'hiding'... other than shame. Yes, I know, anecdotal… but I know what his hidings did to my sister (and me).
For any human being to believe that striking another person is good for them; will help them, is obscene and ridiculous. The only thing violence teaches is that violence will get you what you want by force... and that lesson is all around us and contributes significantly to so many social issues.
Please do not confuse my comments with some flowery 60s or Swedish understanding that kids should be regarded as adult and given no discipline and just allowed to develop and grow on their own – rubbish. Boundaries are the key, but how you enforce these boundaries says more about you than your kids – if you need to resort to violence (hitting) to get obedience, then you have failed. You are the adult. You have the big brain. Use it.
Baggers, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but calling someone else's opinion "obscene and ridiculous" simply because it does not line up with your own opinion is IMO not playing the ball or fair to other people sharing their thoughts and opinions about this topic.
Yes I believe that there is far too much physical abuse(disguised as discipline) between parents and children. How ever, I personally was physically, but lovingly disciplined as a kid, and I never had a problem with how or why said discipline was meted out! And when done correctly I believe corporal punishment is a very effective method of discipline.
[/b]Couldn't agree more, i had a thousand wooden spoons broken on my backside because i was a little turd, it got to the point where i thought it was amusing. Then the old lady busted out the massive novelty wooden spoon and fork that most of the Europeans have hanging in their kitchen's as decor, wasn't so funny after that :P The kid's need to know who's boss, and smacking is the absolute last resort after trying to reason with a child and sometimes tough love is the best way to go, used sparingly of course. Horses for courses, some children don't respond too well to the physical side of punishment, and some do.
How parents choose to discipline their child/children should be completely up to the individual based on what the child responds to best.
Abuse and Discipline are two totally different things.
We had a candle in our house on the mantle which was used as an authoritarian piece of equipment. If you ever saw the candle burning and alight, it meant one of us had misbehaved and a hiding could strike to the antagonist at any time. We used to call it the 'belting candle'.
Once I blew it out. ;D
Genuinely shocked, and disappointed at what I just read.
There is a plethora of anecdotal evidence to support both arguments - to spank or not to spank. This issue is far greater and way more important than anecdotal stories.
But if you want anecdotal, then I will meet your anecdotal and raise you an anecdotal… I have 2 daughters who were never spanked, which to me, if I had, would have been physical abuse. Today, they are both terrific 'citizens'. They were both set strong and clear boundaries... enforced by voice, example and non-negotiable rewards and punishments (never physical. Boundaries is the key).
A child’s body (indeed, all people), is sacrosanct.
Too many of us are the parents that our parents were. Well, not here. My sister, brother and I were disciplined in the good old Catholic way... spare the rod and spoil the child. Watching my sister, deeply distressed, at age 14, whilst my father 'spanked' her was traumatic. She learned nothing from his 'hiding'... other than shame. Yes, I know, anecdotal… but I know what his hidings did to my sister (and me).
For any human being to believe that striking another person is good for them; will help them, is obscene and ridiculous. The only thing violence teaches is that violence will get you what you want by force... and that lesson is all around us and contributes significantly to so many social issues.
Please do not confuse my comments with some flowery 60s or Swedish understanding that kids should be regarded as adult and given no discipline and just allowed to develop and grow on their own – rubbish. Boundaries are the key, but how you enforce these boundaries says more about you than your kids – if you need to resort to violence (hitting) to get obedience, then you have failed. You are the adult. You have the big brain. Use it.
Baggers, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but calling someone else's opinion "obscene and ridiculous" simply because it does not line up with your own opinion is IMO not playing the ball or fair to other people sharing their thoughts and opinions about this topic.
Well said.
We had a candle in our house on the mantle which was used as an authoritarian piece of equipment. If you ever saw the candle burning and alight, it meant one of us had misbehaved and a hiding could strike to the antagonist at any time. We used to call it the 'belting candle'.
Once I blew it out. ;D
And what happened as a result of you braking rank and rejecting the disciplinary system?
We had a candle in our house on the mantle which was used as an authoritarian piece of equipment. If you ever saw the candle burning and alight, it meant one of us had misbehaved and a hiding could strike to the antagonist at any time. We used to call it the 'belting candle'.
Once I blew it out. ;D
I get it, you have a shy sister called Carrie and an Aunt named Annie who looks after an injured author. ;D
It's all a bit Stephen Kingesque, but I get the drinking now, that being the case! :o
There is a real problem within this type of debates, there is often no valid perspective from the inside.
The only way you may find rational objectivity is to view from a distance. Most children love their parents regardless, and most parents love their children regardless. Not matter how extreme a childhood might seem to an external observer, often the participants find positives.
For example, a friend of mine was horribly abused as a child, this led to drugs and crime all before he had left school(Actually, he was asked to leave!) Yet he states today as a recovered drug user, reformed criminal and healed child that if it wasn't for his extreme childhood experiences he may have never survived this far. I try to point out that if he had instead lived a normal childhood, there may have been nothing to be a survivor from in the first place, but he cannot see it as for him there is only one life!
We had a candle in our house on the mantle which was used as an authoritarian piece of equipment. If you ever saw the candle burning and alight, it meant one of us had misbehaved and a hiding could strike to the antagonist at any time. We used to call it the 'belting candle'.
Once I blew it out. ;D
I get it, you have a shy sister called Carrie and an Aunt named Annie who looks after an injured author. ;D
It's all a bit Stephen Kingesque, but I get the drinking now, that being the case! :o
You mean you never had a belting candle in your house?? ;D
I was hit sparingly when I was growing up.
It wouldnt have been an annual occurence as an example, but when it happened I had stuffed up big time thoroughly and deserved it.
I.e. When I was 12 (or was it 11?), I had been caught stealing lego from K-mart (contrast that to 12 year olds in society today, who probably have "outgrown" playing with toys by age 12) and was taken to the cop shop. A big bru haha was the result as my older sister was working there (at Kmart and on shift) at the time and something that I did not even consider was drummed into me which was that I represented her in a poor way at her place of employment as a representative of the same family, and to which I received the belt as my punishment. Not ridiculously outlandish, enough to hurt and make me cry, but it wasnt the pain that made me cry, it was the understanding that I had farked up in a massive way, and that despite what I did from that day onwards, there was no changing what I had done. My mum actually went in to bat for me whilst dad hit me with the belt, and I told her not to get in the way. Not because I didnt want to get hit, it was due to me understanding that I had stuffed up, and let myself down as much as I had anyone else. Officially, the police gave me a 5 year caution which was no real repercussion to be had as it was something that I didnt even understand at the time. It was not even a thought in my mind, although it did make me think of the consequences of any actions beyond that day, but I will not forget that whole scenario at home and that was basically the last time I did anything of that nature. Now, had my parents given me a stern talking to, there is no guarantee that the lesson would not have sunk in. I have no way of knowing how that same scenario plays out, but I wonder whether or not it would have resonated as strongly with me, had the scenario played out differently.
There is no way anyone can tell me whether or not it would have either, as there are varying degrees of how things would have gone with other methods. Some parents may have been very stern and given other punishments, others would have chosen to try and understand the mind of a 12 year old, and figure out what made it all occur. It was simply a matter of timing. I had gone grocery shopping with mum, and being bored asked if I could go next door to kmart instead and look at toys. Mum had let me do that before, and she said yes. Now people might accuse her of bad parenting, but thats not the case, she had spent the entire afternoon with me by taking me to the library, taking me to Mcdonalds for lunch, and I thought I would be asking for too much to ask for her to buy me lego, so I went next door with no intention of taking it, but buying it. I was 50 cents short. (back in 1991 that was a bit more money than it is today, probably the equivalent of a few dollars). But I wanted that one.
Speaking rationally with minors can work to a point. At what point are they just being irrational?
Thats something that cannot be defined. Which is why I find the argument that you should never hit children false. Its not something to do willy nilly but you need it in the arsenal to bring out on some vary rare occasions. It also teaches that there is depth to punishment. Yes taking away lollies can hurt, but not quite like a belt hitting you can. Nor can missing out on seeing a movie at the cinema give you that pain. Even today the actual pain from the belt I cannot remember, its the idea that I did something that bad that was worthy of it that annoys me. At age 12, I should have known better.
This is where religion also should not be underestimated either. As a child we dont think rationally, but the idea that god was all knowing and was the only person who could forgive me, and that I had broken his sacred covenant, was as damaging if not more so, and my parents told me that its best to ask him for forgiveness. Not because of any repercussion, but they advised me that I would not be able to forgive myself if I hadnt asked for forgiveness from those they said I feel like I had let down. I still sometimes ask for forgiveness for that action.
Ahh....the old Lego stealing. I did that sometimes when I was a kid. ;D
Got caught very few times. There was one time when I didn't end up stealing any lego. The neighbours had gone out and left the gate open. Their son had his big shiny Lego boat in the backyard. I went in the backyard and saw it...I could have easily taken it. Instead I smashed it to pieces for him to come home to.
It's understandable when Lego is involved, Thry! ;D
There is a real problem within this type of debates, there is often no valid perspective from the inside.
The only way you may find rational objectivity is to view from a distance. Most children love their parents regardless, and most parents love their children regardless. Not matter how extreme a childhood might seem to an external observer, often the participants find positives.
For example, a friend of mine was horribly abused as a child, this led to drugs and crime all before he had left school(Actually, he was asked to leave!) Yet he states today as a recovered drug user, reformed criminal and healed child that if it wasn't for his extreme childhood experiences he may have never survived this far. I try to point out that if he had instead lived a normal childhood, there may have been nothing to be a survivor from in the first place, but he cannot see it as for him there is only one life!
Im no psychologist. but i wonder whether the need to validate those that you once depended on (from the point of view of belonging) is a fundamental survival need that far outweighs logic?
We have never hit our children and I'm from an era being 50+ that was all about getting strapped at school and a whack on the backside or the odd slap if I fell out of line at home. Getting whacked by my parents only made me resentful and I swore I would be a better parent and never do it.
I prefer the stern words and lecture approach...no place for violence although I believe in teaching my children to look after themselves especially with bullying.
I do make an exception with bullies and believe there is sometimes no other way....my young son on his first day of school was knocked around by a bigger kid and had his cap stolen...the kid had an issue with my eldest daughter and decided to take the easy route and pick on her younger brother. His bigger sister however was doing martial arts at the time and was fairly accomplished for her age and took matters into her own hands unknown to me....she asked the bully boy for the cap back and when he said make me she broke his nose with a well delivered palm strike by all reports.
Bully boy was carted off to sick bay with a bloodied snout and yours truly was rung at work to take home my so called violent daughter.....I was told she was suspended for 2 days and needed disciplining.
On hearing the real story from my daughter, son and onlookers I marched up to the school and paid out on the principal, praised my daughter in front of him(rightly or wrongly) and suggested he provide a safe environment for my children to learn in.....later that night I told my daughter not to do it again but said I understood her motives and that she needed to seek mum and dads advice before doing similar again.
Bully boy never bothered my children again and a good clip on the snout worked wonders in his case.....sadly though it turns out that bully boy was a foster child and his home life had been violent and he had been hit as a child and this was the only form of discipline he knew.
I tend to agree with Baggers on that basis that discipline in the form of physical punishment is all wrong and only breeds more violence and can shape children in the wrong way....
We have never hit our children and I'm from an era being 50+ that was all about getting strapped at school and a whack on the backside or the odd slap if I fell out of line at home. Getting whacked by my parents only made me resentful and I swore I would be a better parent and never do it.
I prefer the stern words and lecture approach...no place for violence although I believe in teaching my children to look after themselves especially with bullying.
I do make an exception with bullies and believe there is sometimes no other way....my young son on his first day of school was knocked around by a bigger kid and had his cap stolen...the kid had an issue with my eldest daughter and decided to take the easy route and pick on her younger brother. His bigger sister however was doing martial arts at the time and was fairly accomplished for her age and took matters into her own hands unknown to me....she asked the bully boy for the cap back and when he said make me she broke his nose with a well delivered palm strike by all reports.
Bully boy was carted off to sick bay with a bloodied snout and yours truly was rung at work to take home my so called violent daughter.....I was told she was suspended for 2 days and needed disciplining.
On hearing the real story from my daughter, son and onlookers I marched up to the school and paid out on the principal, praised my daughter in front of him(rightly or wrongly) and suggested he provide a safe environment for my children to learn in.....later that night I told my daughter not to do it again but said I understood her motives and that she needed to seek mum and dads advice before doing similar again.
Bully boy never bothered my children again and a good clip on the snout worked wonders in his case.....sadly though it turns out that bully boy was a foster child and his home life had been violent and he had been hit as a child and this was the only form of discipline he knew.
I tend to agree with Baggers on that basis that discipline in the form of physical punishment is all wrong and only breeds more violence and can shape children in the wrong way....
awesome story, I say well done to your daughter...as per main line in Kenny Rogers famous song (i think thats his name?)
'sometimes you have to fight when your a man' or in this case a women :)
I should clarify that my intense dislike of 'spanking' children does not indicate that I am a pacifist... though I am opposed to violence and war. I do agree with non-violent demonstration and similar, and of course no violence in the family home. But... when defending yourself, all bets are off.
I like EB1s story and he and I are of a similar vintage... 50s going on 35 ;) His story dealt with life realities. (I had a very similar experience to EB1 as a kid in terms of being hit by parents and also only reacting with hurt, resentment and alienation. Likewise, I deciding to never do the same to my kids).
I was taught martial arts from the age of 12 and was further trained in how to 'disable' an attacker in the Navy. I taught my two lovelies (now in their early 30s) how to do serious harm to any attacker that did not require them to be particularly strong. A last resort but there are times when dropping someone is absolutely necessary to prevent harm to self and/or loved ones.
I was hit sparingly when I was growing up.
It wouldnt have been an annual occurence as an example, but when it happened I had stuffed up big time thoroughly and deserved it.
I.e. When I was 12 (or was it 11?), I had been caught stealing lego from K-mart (contrast that to 12 year olds in society today, who probably have "outgrown" playing with toys by age 12) and was taken to the cop shop. A big bru haha was the result as my older sister was working there (at Kmart and on shift) at the time and something that I did not even consider was drummed into me which was that I represented her in a poor way at her place of employment as a representative of the same family, and to which I received the belt as my punishment. Not ridiculously outlandish, enough to hurt and make me cry, but it wasnt the pain that made me cry, it was the understanding that I had farked up in a massive way, and that despite what I did from that day onwards, there was no changing what I had done. My mum actually went in to bat for me whilst dad hit me with the belt, and I told her not to get in the way. Not because I didnt want to get hit, it was due to me understanding that I had stuffed up, and let myself down as much as I had anyone else. Officially, the police gave me a 5 year caution which was no real repercussion to be had as it was something that I didnt even understand at the time. It was not even a thought in my mind, although it did make me think of the consequences of any actions beyond that day, but I will not forget that whole scenario at home and that was basically the last time I did anything of that nature. Now, had my parents given me a stern talking to, there is no guarantee that the lesson would not have sunk in. I have no way of knowing how that same scenario plays out, but I wonder whether or not it would have resonated as strongly with me, had the scenario played out differently.
There is no way anyone can tell me whether or not it would have either, as there are varying degrees of how things would have gone with other methods. Some parents may have been very stern and given other punishments, others would have chosen to try and understand the mind of a 12 year old, and figure out what made it all occur. It was simply a matter of timing. I had gone grocery shopping with mum, and being bored asked if I could go next door to kmart instead and look at toys. Mum had let me do that before, and she said yes. Now people might accuse her of bad parenting, but thats not the case, she had spent the entire afternoon with me by taking me to the library, taking me to Mcdonalds for lunch, and I thought I would be asking for too much to ask for her to buy me lego, so I went next door with no intention of taking it, but buying it. I was 50 cents short. (back in 1991 that was a bit more money than it is today, probably the equivalent of a few dollars). But I wanted that one.
Speaking rationally with minors can work to a point. At what point are they just being irrational?
Thats something that cannot be defined. Which is why I find the argument that you should never hit children false. Its not something to do willy nilly but you need it in the arsenal to bring out on some vary rare occasions. It also teaches that there is depth to punishment. Yes taking away lollies can hurt, but not quite like a belt hitting you can. Nor can missing out on seeing a movie at the cinema give you that pain. Even today the actual pain from the belt I cannot remember, its the idea that I did something that bad that was worthy of it that annoys me. At age 12, I should have known better.
This is where religion also should not be underestimated either. As a child we dont think rationally, but the idea that god was all knowing and was the only person who could forgive me, and that I had broken his sacred covenant, was as damaging if not more so, and my parents told me that its best to ask him for forgiveness. Not because of any repercussion, but they advised me that I would not be able to forgive myself if I hadnt asked for forgiveness from those they said I feel like I had let down. I still sometimes ask for forgiveness for that action.
Top post Thry
Kids are well trained in tactics to deal with bullying, and what you describe as the old ways is now nothing more than bullying. It doesn't work with young men anymore, they are too well educated and socially connected.
Anyone thinking they can go down that path will quickly find themselves redundant like Pagan!
There is no respect earned through abuse!
Read this. http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/life/swedens-liberal-parents-spoil-children-rotten-20131102-2wtjy.html
Have a wee think about it and tell me why social engineering isn't to blame, along with the warped media, in screwing up today's youth. I can guarantee you that my kids are one of the best behaved, well mannered and happiest out of all their friends. Why? Because they have boundaries that are non negotiable, they know to behave, they get rewarded for doing tasks around the house. If they cross the line they punished and yes..I have belted my kids and will continue to do so. Has to be done. The threat alone keeps them in toe now 99% of the time. The bastard who thought that parents should negotiate with immature minds should be put on trial.
The best line in that Article is that a family is not a democracy. Brilliant. Between my wife and I, those kids have respect and if that is tinged with fear..they'll thank me later when they see their friends treat their parents like crap and shake their own heads. Friends to my kids, yes, but Dad first.
Genuinely shocked, and disappointed at what I just read.
There is a plethora of anecdotal evidence to support both arguments - to spank or not to spank. This issue is far greater and way more important than anecdotal stories.
But if you want anecdotal, then I will meet your anecdotal and raise you an anecdotal… I have 2 daughters who were never spanked, which to me, if I had, would have been physical abuse. Today, they are both terrific 'citizens'. They were both set strong and clear boundaries... enforced by voice, example and non-negotiable rewards and punishments (never physical. Boundaries is the key).
A child’s body (indeed, all people), is sacrosanct.
Too many of us are the parents that our parents were. Well, not here. My sister, brother and I were disciplined in the good old Catholic way... spare the rod and spoil the child. Watching my sister, deeply distressed, at age 14, whilst my father 'spanked' her was traumatic. She learned nothing from his 'hiding'... other than shame. Yes, I know, anecdotal… but I know what his hidings did to my sister (and me).
For any human being to believe that striking another person is good for them; will help them, is obscene and ridiculous. The only thing violence teaches is that violence will get you what you want by force... and that lesson is all around us and contributes significantly to so many social issues.
Please do not confuse my comments with some flowery 60s or Swedish understanding that kids should be regarded as adult and given no discipline and just allowed to develop and grow on their own – rubbish. Boundaries are the key, but how you enforce these boundaries says more about you than your kids – if you need to resort to violence (hitting) to get obedience, then you have failed. You are the adult. You have the big brain. Use it.
Top post Baggers, I completely agree.
I stand by my opinion that the proposition of striking another human-being can 'be good for them'... it is an obscene and ridiculous proposition.
Strict, clear and even rigid boundaries are important for our kids and will help them understand life on so many levels. My daughters, to this day, describe me as being a really strict parent... but never abusive or angry. Hitting is abuse. The moment you strike a child you have lost control.
I have had people say to me in regard to this stance, "I was disciplined with corporal punish and it didn't do me any harm." What a ridiculous statement. How would you know unless you led parallel lives of the spanked and not spanked?! That is the only way you could possibly know.
Please explain to me how corporal punishment can be 'done correctly?'
Here is another pet hate of mine, stating opinion as fact and/or absolute. I admit it's easy to do, and while I try my hardest to stay away from it, I doubt I have a perfect record !!
I can agree that
some hitting is abuse, but all? Is boxing abuse?
And for your second statement, In my experience it is so far from the truth it's not funny. This might help answer your last question as well !!
My parents set very clear boundries, while we (there were 3 of us) lived in our parents home, it was made very clear to us that we had to play by their rules. If the rules were broken, there were consequences. In my primary school years, the consequence of disobeying most rules was a good spanking.
After being caught doing the wrong thing, we would be sent to our room (privately, we were never embarrassed in front of anyone). After being given a few minutes to think about why we were there either parent would come in and explain clearly what we had done wrong and what the punishment would be.
They always used a wooden paddle (mum said 'her hands were made for love, the 'stick' as we called it, was for discipline).
A good smack across the backside would always produce tears and often a pretty sharp sting causing immediate pain. For me personally, I don't ever remember any bruising, or long term pain from receiving a smack.
After we were smacked they would ask us if we were sorry for what we had done? Silence(or more crying) or a no, would result in another smack, a yes and there would be a last reminder not to do it again, a hug and it was never mentioned again.
I do not remember ever seeing either of my parents smack or even touch us kids in anger or in any way that was out of control. Their discipline was very clear, methodic and controlled. And always done in love (we were told this, but as we grew we could also see it), yes we heard the old line of 'it's hurting me more than it's hurting you' !!
This is my story, my parents are far from perfect, and this is my 25+ year memory of how things worked for us. But IMO the end result speaks for itself, Mum and Dad now have 3 very well adjusted, well mannered etc adult children who love and respect their parents and are very grateful for the upbringing that they were given.
I can agree that some hitting is abuse, but all? Is boxing abuse?
Boxing the hell out of a kid would be though.
There in lies a significant problem, who sets the boundary for what is unreasonable and what is OK.
EB1s daughter could have stabbed the bully "in defense" and someone would have happily argued it was justified, but what if the bully had stabbed EB1s daughter "in defense" after having their nose broken?
A little tap from mum in the supermarket for throwing a tantrum in the lolly isle might be OK, but it doesn't translate into a little tap from dad's fist for spilling his beer or not finishing a task to his satisfaction.
You cannot argue for the gray areas, because you have no control over who defines the grayness.
I am not one to specifically buy into political correctness, fundamentalism or liberation movements. But I can see that in cases like the issue of corporal punishment any gray areas will be the area that creates the problem.
While fundamentalists might argue the rights of many to use limited corporal punishment, if the abused child grows into the likes of Martin Bryant we all lose and we all pay.
No beg pardons in my household. If you'd done the wrong thing you copped it. "You do the crime, you do the time."
I stand by my opinion that the proposition of striking another human-being can 'be good for them'... it is an obscene and ridiculous proposition.
Strict, clear and even rigid boundaries are important for our kids and will help them understand life on so many levels. My daughters, to this day, describe me as being a really strict parent... but never abusive or angry. Hitting is abuse. The moment you strike a child you have lost control.
I have had people say to me in regard to this stance, "I was disciplined with corporal punish and it didn't do me any harm." What a ridiculous statement. How would you know unless you led parallel lives of the spanked and not spanked?! That is the only way you could possibly know.
Please explain to me how corporal punishment can be 'done correctly?'
Here is another pet hate of mine, stating opinion as fact and/or absolute. I admit it's easy to do, and while I try my hardest to stay away from it, I doubt I have a perfect record !!
I can agree that some hitting is abuse, but all? Is boxing abuse?
And for your second statement, In my experience it is so far from the truth it's not funny. This might help answer your last question as well !!
My parents set very clear boundries, while we (there were 3 of us) lived in our parents home, it was made very clear to us that we had to play by their rules. If the rules were broken, there were consequences. In my primary school years, the consequence of disobeying most rules was a good spanking.
After being caught doing the wrong thing, we would be sent to our room (privately, we were never embarrassed in front of anyone). After being given a few minutes to think about why we were there either parent would come in and explain clearly what we had done wrong and what the punishment would be.
They always used a wooden paddle (mum said 'her hands were made for love, the 'stick' as we called it, was for discipline).
A good smack across the backside would always produce tears and often a pretty sharp sting causing immediate pain. For me personally, I don't ever remember any bruising, or long term pain from receiving a smack.
After we were smacked they would ask us if we were sorry for what we had done? Silence(or more crying) or a no, would result in another smack, a yes and there would be a last reminder not to do it again, a hug and it was never mentioned again.
I do not remember ever seeing either of my parents smack or even touch us kids in anger or in any way that was out of control. Their discipline was very clear, methodic and controlled. And always done in love (we were told this, but as we grew we could also see it), yes we heard the old line of 'it's hurting me more than it's hurting you' !!
This is my story, my parents are far from perfect, and this is my 25+ year memory of how things worked for us. But IMO the end result speaks for itself, Mum and Dad now have 3 very well adjusted, well mannered etc adult children who love and respect their parents and are very grateful for the upbringing that they were given.
It is always difficult to judge the actions of previous generations by current standards. If we applied the same logic to football coaches, then Ron Barassi and John Kennedy in modern times would be seen as mindless thugs who had 'lost the players'.
Everyone (well, almost everyone) who becomes a parent wants to do the best job they can, and the type of parenting each of us received will heavily influence what type of parent we become. Not everyone's right will be someone else's right, and not everyone's wrong will be wrong for others.
For me, the most important ingredient is
consistency, from BOTH parents. If kids know exactly where the line is, and that there will be consequences (such as no Playstation) if the line is crossed, they will receive the message they need.
Kids are like video recorders - they will replay all of your best habits and all of your worst habits back to you, over and over again. The smartest thing to do is promote your good habits and suppress your bad ones.
It is always difficult to judge the actions of previous generations by current standards. If we applied the same logic to football coaches, then Ron Barassi and John Kennedy in modern times would be seen as mindless thugs who had 'lost the players'.
Everyone (well, almost everyone) who becomes a parent wants to do the best job they can, and the type of parenting each of us received will heavily influence what type of parent we become. Not everyone's right will be someone else's right, and not everyone's wrong will be wrong for others.
For me, the most important ingredient is consistency, from BOTH parents. If kids know exactly where the line is, and that there will be consequences (such as no Playstation) if the line is crossed, they will receive the message they need.
Kids are like video recorders - they will replay all of your best habits and all of your worst habits back to you, over and over again. The smartest thing to do is promote your good habits and suppress your bad ones.
Tonyo, I agree that there are many different methods of discipline and bringing kids up, and none of them are necessarily better than any other. If it works, great !!!
To me Baggers seem's like a good parent, and has the results to prove it. I'm likely to raise any kids I have quite differently. I don't think that makes me any better or worse than Baggers or anyone else, it just makes me different !!! I just hope everyone's ok with that !!
Totally agree with your comments about consistency and kids mirroring behavior too !!
Wow, what a loaded topic. I don't know what is actually right and neither does anyone here, because there isn't a definitive guide that proves what is right, so we go on what we believe. I will state though that somethings are clearly wrong and parents 'belting' kids is clearly wrong, parents calling kids words like b****, c***, a***hole etc is wrong.
My children are 12 and 13 year old boys and like a lot of children, yes they are not perfect and yes they are a bit lazy around the house and yes they love to wrestle and fight with each other if left to do that, but overall they are well behaved.
They live with me full time with some weekends with their mother, for the majority of their life they lived primarily with her until a few years ago. She cannot discipline the boys at all and they simply do not listen, to the degree that she has to regularly call me when they aroe there and I talk to them and they behave.
I have smacked by boys on the backside during their life, maybe 4-5 times each, for very serious infractions and never hard or with the intent to hurt, their mother however does. Personally I don't like when I do smack them, but it is not done in anger on the times it has been, it has been calculating and done because I believed that a sterner message was needed and the smack was symbolic.
However, what I personally find is that I don't make empty threats ever, for all of our life if I said there was a punishment for an action, there was a punishment, be that 1 month without electronics, 1 week of writing lines after school or off to bed early. If they were warned and subsequently misbehaved, the consequence was enforced.
They know this and when I say to do something it is almost always done immediately, they have hardly ever talked back and they are always complimented on their behaviour in public.
The other thing is that up to this age still, the favorite thing for them to do is something with a parent, be it play basketball, watch a movie, go for a ride or a swim... basically anything.
I think with that being the case, they generally don't want to lose those times and that is far more powerful than a smack could ever be.
I don't judge a parent who thinks a smack on the bottom is the appropriate punishment as often as they reasonably see fit, nor one who has never smacked their child... I think as long as it is not abusive, it is a parental choice.
I think it is good to share the stories of our experience, we can all learn and/or be encouraged by them.
Good post MIO.
Many excellent posts with some great ideas here. Something we can all take something into our own lives. I have 2 girls myself one going 13 and one going 15. Its a great laugh when you hear parenting experts from America on a Oprah style show promoting their books of wisdom, and the last thing you learn is that with their busy lifestyle they chose never to have children. To avoid being selfish and not giving children the attention they deserve and need. Experts who can only comment by others experiences and not their own. This topic being a delicate issue I will add just a few points I try to use in my everyday life with children. I have 2 children and have been an athletics track and field coach for a few years now. Ages 6 to 17. I do not have all the answers in life and probably very few to be honest. Here are a few things to consider.
1. Parents and role models can be friendly or friends but are not best friends with their children. This can create issues. Once children view you as purely a friend the authority of the parent can be something of a compromise. Watch the fine line here because it is easy to cross.
2. Communication. If your children can't speak to you about any issue in confidence you will have serious issues as they approach teenage years. They must feel confident to speak to you about anything. Even the silliest mistakes they make, should still allow them to never be scared to tell you. Watch how you respond to this situation. Punish mistakes while complimenting honesty they show to you, their role model.
3. Two parents must be on the same page all the time. Even if they are both wrong. You can make mistakes and explain this to your children. Appologise to them and explain why the misunderstanding happened. Parents are human, just like children are.
4. Wrong. What is wrong ? Wrong is not getting caught. Wrong is wrong. doing the wrong thing and getting away with it doesn't make it O.K. Never. Children must understand the difference.
5. Love and attention. Children need to feel loved. They need to love back. They need attention, and time with humans. They need to feel a part of something special. Avoid being too busy for your children. If you are too busy for them, you are really being too selfish for yourself. Your time for yourself will make it appear they are less important, and that they are not your number one priority.
6. Consequences. Before you dish out a consequence think of the same consequence being dished out to you as a child. What is considered harsh. What is considered soft. What would make you think twice about doing it again. Its a hard call. It really is. Don't try being your parents. try being parents to your children.
That is about it for now. too many wise posts before mine. A cut and paste of all the previous would make an excellent book. Remember its easy to sow the seed, or to give birth. In the big picture this is the easiest thing to do. Its not easy to be a Mother or a Father. Its a learning curve you endure for you entire life.
"You spend the first few years of your childs life, teaching them to walk and talk". "You then spend the next 15 years telling them to sit down and shut up". Its true. ;D ;)
Good luck to all parents out there. There really is no book to this mystery. Just agree to the fact you spend your entire life learning how parenting works best, and never really master it. Teach your children how to learn and you may be half way there. ;)
I don't want to post after EVERY other persons post, I really don't !!!! But gee there is some good stuff being said !!!!
Good work Mantis !!
A few folks have mentioned here the importance of boundaries and consistency. Couldn't agree more.
I guess the one thing I was most consistent with (with my girls) was lying. They quickly learnt that that was the worst thing they could do... zero tolerance for lying. Hence they were always encouraged to be truthful even if it was awkward - broke something, spilled something... stuck a pencil up her sister's arse! They have given the feedback now in their adult years that being honest and truthful was about the most important thing they'd learnt from their oddball father. Plus speaking out against an obvious injustice / having a social conscience. And having a sense of humour and doing your best not to take yourself too seriously. The most obvious of course is to be committed to the Old Dark Navy Blues... yes, both girls are one-eyed supporters. Which was no easy task considering their mother (aka Satan) is a Rottingwood supporter.
That raises the next issue... and a terribly difficult one to confront. Divorce. How do you stay on the same page in this situation? This was a painful development for all concerned. Corney cliche but their mother and I married way too young... just kids. By the time we realised we were the mismatch of the decade we had two little girls... and we hung in there for years - for the kids. Bad mistake. The girls could sense it. Long story short it took a lot of love to help the girls understand it was not their fault and that they could love both parents although they were so different and couldn't get along. Time for dad to practice what he preached and be candid and honest with them (explained appropriate to their age and maturity).
But there are horror stories of one estranged partner 'demonizing' the other to the children and all this does is seriously f*ck up the kids. I did my best to teach my girls that sometimes two good people just don't get along and no one is to blame... but you do hear of bitterness overtaking love and common sense and the kids become torn. Should be a law against slating 'the other parent' to the kids.
But there are horror stories of one estranged partner 'demonizing' the other to the children and all this does is seriously f*ck up the kids. I did my best to teach my girls that sometimes two good people just don't get along and no one is to blame... but you do hear of bitterness overtaking love and common sense and the kids become torn. Should be a law against slating 'the other parent' to the kids.
Yep. spot on .... kids sense even the slightest friction and it's the very LAST thing they need. What's that old saying? You come into the world alone, and you leave the same way. What you do in between those two events defines who you are.
I don't have any kids (that I know of ;D) but perhaps if I did then I might have a different attitude to the whole debate. Some good points made indeed.
FWIW, and not wanting to get too sentimental, having kids has been without a doubt the most rewarding thing I have ever done in my life (I have 4 well-balanced and productive members of society).
I learned far more about myself through my kids than I could ever have learned on my own.
The only advice I ever give to those who may be contemplating having kids for the first time - make sure you (and your partner) are 110% committed to the idea. It's a 24/7, 20-plus years contract, and you can't just de-list your kids at the end of the year because they won't do their homework!
FWIW, and not wanting to get too sentimental, having kids has been without a doubt the most rewarding thing I have ever done in my life (I have 4 well-balanced and productive members of society).
I learned far more about myself through my kids than I could ever have learned on my own.
The only advice I ever give to those who may be contemplating having kids for the first time - make sure you (and your partner) are 110% committed to the idea. It's a 24/7, 20-plus years contract, and you can't just de-list your kids at the end of the year because they won't do their homework!
Can you delist them if they keep you up 24/7 and are costing you too much money?
A rule of thumb in this debate is that a parent who does not smack their child decries those that do, they are quick to point out the proper (in their thoughts) parenting skills and those who use other methods are wrong. The truth is that both can be right. The real problem is that there are a large number of parents who have absolutely no idea of parenting and that's where both sides find their ammunition.
I know of parents who have used a smack and their children are exemplary. I have also known parents who follow the no hitting rule whose children have become monsters, both as children and as adults.
I believe that the trick of the game is a balanced approach. As on old teacher who used the strap, I used to first give a warning, followed by a brief glimpse of the leather instrument. If the matter recurred the student was asked to hold the instrument, to get the feel of what it may be like to receive it forcefully. The third time they found out the advantage of behaving better. I taught for 8 years in Broadmeadows (Broady East and Upfield) and never got to use the strap more than a couple times a year.
Today the kids have been given the idea that a teacher hitting them would be abominable but the same kids have no worries about hitting others. I often liken kids to cattle. When in a paddock they see outside the fence and are prepared to push against a fence to get to the other side. If the fence is strong they accept that and leave the fence alone. Kids are similar. They will test and push the boundaries. If the boundaries are strong the kids will remain within the acceptable area. Strength of boundaries are set by the parents. Sometimes a harsh word, sometimes a careful explanation of possible consequences will do the trick. But sometimes the strength begins to wilt under pressure and a smack will quickly bring reality back in. Note that I said a smack -NOT A BEATING. there is a vast difference. Don't blame a parent or decry for smacking their child. They may have already implemented several other approaches first before resorting to their ultimate defence.
Those parent who beat their children and/or don't try other methods first should be assisted not derided.
A good friend of mine at the time came to visit me in my new house. Their three year old when offered a soft drink and biscuits, broke the biscuits on the new carpet, poured the drink over that and proceeded to make 'biscuit pies'. Both parents laughed at their child's antics. When they didn't respond I picked up the child sat him on my knee and wouldn't let him off. They never visited again, much to my delight. The same child six years later was pushing my 5 year old daughter under the water in a mutual friend's backyard pool. He refused to stop when asked. So I went around and held him by the hair and pushed him under the water. >:D When I finally let him up spluttering for air, I explained that if he continued with his behaviour I would also continue with mine. The rest of the afternoon went entirely without further incident. :)
A rule of thumb in this debate is that a parent who does not smack their child decries those that do, they are quick to point out the proper (in their thoughts) parenting skills and those who use other methods are wrong. The truth is that both can be right. The real problem is that there are a large number of parents who have absolutely no idea of parenting and that's where both sides find their ammunition.
I know of parents who have used a smack and their children are exemplary. I have also known parents who follow the no hitting rule whose children have become monsters, both as children and as adults.
I believe that the trick of the game is a balanced approach. As on old teacher who used the strap, I used to first give a warning, followed by a brief glimpse of the leather instrument. If the matter recurred the student was asked to hold the instrument, to get the feel of what it may be like to receive it forcefully. The third time they found out the advantage of behaving better. I taught for 8 years in Broadmeadows (Broady East and Upfield) and never got to use the strap more than a couple times a year.
Today the kids have been given the idea that a teacher hitting them would be abominable but the same kids have no worries about hitting others. I often liken kids to cattle. When in a paddock they see outside the fence and are prepared to push against a fence to get to the other side. If the fence is strong they accept that and leave the fence alone. Kids are similar. They will test and push the boundaries. If the boundaries are strong the kids will remain within the acceptable area. Strength of boundaries are set by the parents. Sometimes a harsh word, sometimes a careful explanation of possible consequences will do the trick. But sometimes the strength begins to wilt under pressure and a smack will quickly bring reality back in. Note that I said a smack -NOT A BEATING. there is a vast difference. Don't blame a parent or decry for smacking their child. They may have already implemented several other approaches first before resorting to their ultimate defence.
Those parent who beat their children and/or don't try other methods first should be assisted not derided.
A good friend of mine at the time came to visit me in my new house. Their three year old when offered a soft drink and biscuits, broke the biscuits on the new carpet, poured the drink over that and proceeded to make 'biscuit pies'. Both parents laughed at their child's antics. When they didn't respond I picked up the child sat him on my knee and wouldn't let him off. They never visited again, much to my delight. The same child six years later was pushing my 5 year old daughter under the water in a mutual friend's backyard pool. He refused to stop when asked. So I went around and held him by the hair and pushed him under the water. >:D When I finally let him up spluttering for air, I explained that if he continued with his behaviour I would also continue with mine. The rest of the afternoon went entirely without further incident. :)
Very nice chalky.
Just goes to show, you can instill discipline if required.
...and just to throw a very real and disturbing curly one into the mix...
Paedophiles report that their targets are always the most obedient, compliant and co-operative children. These kids are more likely to 'co-operate' and less likely to 'report', wanting to be 'good' kids who don't make trouble or create problems. Strong, loud, extroverted kids are a no-no for paedophiles... disturbing, but true.
It's a balancing act.
I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion but my resolve has weakened.
My mother used the wooden spoon on her children from time to time and I'm sure we deserved it. My father went a little further; breaking an axe handle on one of my older brothers and a piece of 4 x 2 on me. I'm sure that he felt that we deserved it. In Dad's defence, he had a pretty tough upbringing himself and was probably suffering from post traumatic stress after his service in WW2.
All of my siblings are/were high achievers with a strong sense of right and wrong.
When I was at primary school, corporal punishment was not only acceptable but liberally applied. I think I held the record with 16 cuts in one day. However, when one teacher overstepped the mark, Dad took time off work to make sure that the headmaster understood that any punishment dished out to his children had to be fair.
I digress, but when my grandfather was unfairly punished at primary school, his older sister paid a visit and broke the teacher's nose.
I can remember giving my daughter a slap on the butt once but I don't think I ever hit my son. Both of my children are high achievers and they are passionate about social justice. I am extremely proud of them and proud that my parenting has helped to make them what they are.
Is it right to give your child a smack? Of course it is in the right circumstances and provided that it is absolutely necessary to stop unacceptable behaviour and not to assuage the parent's frustrations.
Is it right to physically (or emotionally) abuse your child? Under no circumstances! And that includes the use of wooden spoons, axe handles, lengths of 4 x 2, leather straps and anything other than an open hand intended to shock rather than hurt.
I always only 'heard rumours' of teachers excessively using the strap. On a few occasions I was able to ascertain that particular stories were wild exaggerations made by those who wished to amplify their courage, hardness, ... whatever. So perhaps a number of these stories, but probably not all are not quite true.
One point that I must make is that since corporal punishment was banned in schools general behaviour has progressively worsened. There may very well be other inputs to this but I believe that it has had some effect at least.
I have always questioned fully before handing out any punishment and I have found that kids do not necessarily lie, they just avoid or leave very pertinent information out of the conversation. It is generally very easy to discover this by asking the same thing in a different way, but kids still try it until they eventually realise that you are able to get to the truth eventually and they then own up fairly quickly should they come under investigation again.
I have a very good relationship with many of my former pupils, dating back to the early seventies. At school reunions those who I had been firm with were just as keen to talk with me as those who were goodie-two-shoes. One former pupil who I had a major run-in with at Broady East many years later left his mates to come across the road to talk to me about old times. (I had been sh1t scared as they were a real tough looking mob and I desperately wanted to avoid them and had crossed the road)
The one bit advice that I have always given new teachers - remember the four F's - Fair, Firm and Friendly and Fun. Mix these things up in the right amount to suit the situation and you will find kids respond. The big F is FAIR.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/2013/11/08/07/44/father-deemed-unfit-for-denying-mcdonald-s
>:(
The world has truly gone mad.
No doubt there is more to this story than meets the eye, but this sets an absolutely terrible precedent in the court room for people facing these sorts of problems.
I always only 'heard rumours' of teachers excessively using the strap. On a few occasions I was able to ascertain that particular stories were wild exaggerations made by those who wished to amplify their courage, hardness, ... whatever. So perhaps a number of these stories, but probably not all are not quite true.
One point that I must make is that since corporal punishment was banned in schools general behaviour has progressively worsened. There may very well be other inputs to this but I believe that it has had some effect at least.
I have always questioned fully before handing out any punishment and I have found that kids do not necessarily lie, they just avoid or leave very pertinent information out of the conversation. It is generally very easy to discover this by asking the same thing in a different way, but kids still try it until they eventually realise that you are able to get to the truth eventually and they then own up fairly quickly should they come under investigation again.
I have a very good relationship with many of my former pupils, dating back to the early seventies. At school reunions those who I had been firm with were just as keen to talk with me as those who were goodie-two-shoes. One former pupil who I had a major run-in with at Broady East many years later left his mates to come across the road to talk to me about old times. (I had been sh1t scared as they were a real tough looking mob and I desperately wanted to avoid them and had crossed the road)
The one bit advice that I have always given new teachers - remember the four F's - Fair, Firm and Friendly and Fun. Mix these things up in the right amount to suit the situation and you will find kids respond. The big F is FAIR.
No wild exaggerations at my school...the strap was used on a regular basis and I can still feel the sting on my hands as I put them under my desk on the cool metal frame to dull the pain.
It was an all boys Technical School and the teachers didnt take prisoners...some of them enjoyed beating up on the students in a sadistic manner especially the vice principal who had a very large and heavy strap which he liked to use with a large flourish.
You left out the other "F"....favourites....what always annoyed me was the different rules for different students....
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/2013/11/08/07/44/father-deemed-unfit-for-denying-mcdonald-s
>:(
The world has truly gone mad.
No doubt there is more to this story than meets the eye, but this sets an absolutely terrible precedent in the court room for people facing these sorts of problems.
The problem in that story isn't the father, the child or the McDonald's.
The problem for me is how someone gets into a position of power and thinks that a ruling on this type of issue is both reasonable and required! How does the court system over there manage to get into this situation, and why do people stand by and let it happen?
Absolutely gobsmacked LP. No doubt that its all a matter of manipulating the lack of dinner into an unfit parent due to not giving them any other alternative and the mother seizing this as an opportunity to win custody but you have to look at that relationship to see that common sense left a long time prior.
The legal fraternity should be ashamed of the people that allowed this to happen. IT should have been thrown out and seen to be a waste of the courts time.
Jesus Christ.
"Only in America". My favourite is this bit:
Not wanting to reward his son's bad behaviour, Mr Schorr gave the boy an ultimatum: dinner anywhere other than McDonald's or no dinner.
I wish I'd been given tht 'ultimatum' when I was a kid....
Got sent to bed with no tea a few times for being a frickin turd.
I always only 'heard rumours' of teachers excessively using the strap. On a few occasions I was able to ascertain that particular stories were wild exaggerations made by those who wished to amplify their courage, hardness, ... whatever. So perhaps a number of these stories, but probably not all are not quite true.
One point that I must make is that since corporal punishment was banned in schools general behaviour has progressively worsened. There may very well be other inputs to this but I believe that it has had some effect at least.
I have always questioned fully before handing out any punishment and I have found that kids do not necessarily lie, they just avoid or leave very pertinent information out of the conversation. It is generally very easy to discover this by asking the same thing in a different way, but kids still try it until they eventually realise that you are able to get to the truth eventually and they then own up fairly quickly should they come under investigation again.
I have a very good relationship with many of my former pupils, dating back to the early seventies. At school reunions those who I had been firm with were just as keen to talk with me as those who were goodie-two-shoes. One former pupil who I had a major run-in with at Broady East many years later left his mates to come across the road to talk to me about old times. (I had been sh1t scared as they were a real tough looking mob and I desperately wanted to avoid them and had crossed the road)
The one bit advice that I have always given new teachers - remember the four F's - Fair, Firm and Friendly and Fun. Mix these things up in the right amount to suit the situation and you will find kids respond. The big F is FAIR.
No wild exaggerations at my school...the strap was used on a regular basis and I can still feel the sting on my hands as I put them under my desk on the cool metal frame to dull the pain.
It was an all boys Technical School and the teachers didnt take prisoners...some of them enjoyed beating up on the students in a sadistic manner especially the vice principal who had a very large and heavy strap which he liked to use with a large flourish.
You left out the other "F"....favourites....what always annoyed me was the different rules for different students....
I deliberately didn't include that word 'favourites' because I was giving advice to junior teachers and I would NEVER suggest that they create favourites. The creation of favourites immediately detracts from the greatest 'F' word FAIR. Kids have a great awareness of what is fair and what is not, although at times they need to be shown of how the fairness occurs before they make up their minds.
I always only 'heard rumours' of teachers excessively using the strap. On a few occasions I was able to ascertain that particular stories were wild exaggerations made by those who wished to amplify their courage, hardness, ... whatever. So perhaps a number of these stories, but probably not all are not quite true.
One point that I must make is that since corporal punishment was banned in schools general behaviour has progressively worsened. There may very well be other inputs to this but I believe that it has had some effect at least.
I have always questioned fully before handing out any punishment and I have found that kids do not necessarily lie, they just avoid or leave very pertinent information out of the conversation. It is generally very easy to discover this by asking the same thing in a different way, but kids still try it until they eventually realise that you are able to get to the truth eventually and they then own up fairly quickly should they come under investigation again.
I have a very good relationship with many of my former pupils, dating back to the early seventies. At school reunions those who I had been firm with were just as keen to talk with me as those who were goodie-two-shoes. One former pupil who I had a major run-in with at Broady East many years later left his mates to come across the road to talk to me about old times. (I had been sh1t scared as they were a real tough looking mob and I desperately wanted to avoid them and had crossed the road)
The one bit advice that I have always given new teachers - remember the four F's - Fair, Firm and Friendly and Fun. Mix these things up in the right amount to suit the situation and you will find kids respond. The big F is FAIR.
No wild exaggerations at my school...the strap was used on a regular basis and I can still feel the sting on my hands as I put them under my desk on the cool metal frame to dull the pain.
It was an all boys Technical School and the teachers didnt take prisoners...some of them enjoyed beating up on the students in a sadistic manner especially the vice principal who had a very large and heavy strap which he liked to use with a large flourish.
You left out the other "F"....favourites....what always annoyed me was the different rules for different students....
I deliberately didn't include that word 'favourites' because I was giving advice to junior teachers and I would NEVER suggest that they create favourites. The creation of favourites immediately detracts from the greatest 'F' word FAIR. Kids have a great awareness of what is fair and what is not, although at times they need to be shown of how the fairness occurs before they make up their minds.
You sound like a terrific teacher, CHALKY Old Son. I recall having some beauts at high school. Seemed the older you got the more teachers would allow an (appropriate) friendship to develop.
But the first 8 years of my schooling was a little like EB1s... first was the convent. I didn't experience any priests doing the wrong thing, just nuns beating the crap out of us on a pretty regular basis. And nothing was out of bounds. A whipping with a can across the back of the legs was standard... and bleeding was not uncommon. Also being belted with books across the face/head if you did the wrong thing was not uncommon. There was some mean bitches there. I ran away on a regular basis (yes, 5 year old boy roaming the streets of Moonee Ponds) but fortunately, after 2 years at the convent, we moved down the Peninsula and off to a state school... no more nuns, yah! No canes at the state school... just leather or vinyl straps. And man they stung. Especially if you got '6 of the best'.
Gotta say that I have incredible respect for teachers... don't know how they do it. I couldn't.
I always only 'heard rumours' of teachers excessively using the strap. On a few occasions I was able to ascertain that particular stories were wild exaggerations made by those who wished to amplify their courage, hardness, ... whatever. So perhaps a number of these stories, but probably not all are not quite true.
One point that I must make is that since corporal punishment was banned in schools general behaviour has progressively worsened. There may very well be other inputs to this but I believe that it has had some effect at least.
I have always questioned fully before handing out any punishment and I have found that kids do not necessarily lie, they just avoid or leave very pertinent information out of the conversation. It is generally very easy to discover this by asking the same thing in a different way, but kids still try it until they eventually realise that you are able to get to the truth eventually and they then own up fairly quickly should they come under investigation again.
I have a very good relationship with many of my former pupils, dating back to the early seventies. At school reunions those who I had been firm with were just as keen to talk with me as those who were goodie-two-shoes. One former pupil who I had a major run-in with at Broady East many years later left his mates to come across the road to talk to me about old times. (I had been sh1t scared as they were a real tough looking mob and I desperately wanted to avoid them and had crossed the road)
The one bit advice that I have always given new teachers - remember the four F's - Fair, Firm and Friendly and Fun. Mix these things up in the right amount to suit the situation and you will find kids respond. The big F is FAIR.
No wild exaggerations at my school...the strap was used on a regular basis and I can still feel the sting on my hands as I put them under my desk on the cool metal frame to dull the pain.
It was an all boys Technical School and the teachers didnt take prisoners...some of them enjoyed beating up on the students in a sadistic manner especially the vice principal who had a very large and heavy strap which he liked to use with a large flourish.
You left out the other "F"....favourites....what always annoyed me was the different rules for different students....
I deliberately didn't include that word 'favourites' because I was giving advice to junior teachers and I would NEVER suggest that they create favourites. The creation of favourites immediately detracts from the greatest 'F' word FAIR. Kids have a great awareness of what is fair and what is not, although at times they need to be shown of how the fairness occurs before they make up their minds.
You sound like a terrific teacher, CHALKY Old Son. I recall having some beauts at high school. Seemed the older you got the more teachers would allow an (appropriate) friendship to develop.
But the first 8 years of my schooling was a little like EB1s... first was the convent. I didn't experience any priests doing the wrong thing, just nuns beating the crap out of us on a pretty regular basis. And nothing was out of bounds. A whipping with a can across the back of the legs was standard... and bleeding was not uncommon. Also being belted with books across the face/head if you did the wrong thing was not uncommon. There was some mean bitches there. I ran away on a regular basis (yes, 5 year old boy roaming the streets of Moonee Ponds) but fortunately, after 2 years at the convent, we moved down the Peninsula and off to a state school... no more nuns, yah! No canes at the state school... just leather or vinyl straps. And man they stung. Especially if you got '6 of the best'.
Gotta say that I have incredible respect for teachers... don't know how they do it. I couldn't.
I think that the key to my teaching was that I was no goodie-two-shoes myself as a kid (actually a bit of a demon) and that made me aware of how my students thought. If I had a dollar for each time that I have siddled up to a kid about to do something and said "I wouldn't do that if I were you" and saw an amazed look on their face, I would have retired years earlier.
Saw a bawling kid cop a slap off his mother down at Clark Rubber today. Made me think of this....is it appropriate for parents to dish out discipline in a public place for everybody to see, or should it always be a 'home' thing?
Saw a bawling kid cop a slap off his mother down at Clark Rubber today. Made me think of this....is it appropriate for parents to dish out discipline in a public place for everybody to see, or should it always be a 'home' thing?
Good question, I would suggest that it would be good to keep it private, but that doesn't necessarily mean at home!
Saw a bawling kid cop a slap off his mother down at Clark Rubber today. Made me think of this....is it appropriate for parents to dish out discipline in a public place for everybody to see, or should it always be a 'home' thing?
I think its poor of parents to hit kids publicly. Threaten with "just wait till we get home".
Should be the biggest weapon in the arsenal. Except you get home and you cant do anything because its illegal to hit.
The old threatening lines. Here are some I remember ;D
"Just wait til we get home".
"Wait til your father gets home".
"I kick ya farking arse that hard you won't sit down for a month!!"
"I'll farking shove ya head up ya arse!!"
And two of my personal favourites:
"Speak to me like that and I'll slap ya face!!!!"
"Look at me like that and I slap you."
And this one: "I'll f***ing belt you!!!!
;D
Oh to be a kid again. ^-^
The old threatening lines. Here are some I remember ;D
"Just wait til we get home".
"Wait til your father gets home".
"I kick ya farking arse that hard you won't sit down for a month!!"
"I'll farking shove ya head up ya arse!!"
And two of my personal favourites:
"Speak to me like that and I'll slap ya face!!!!"
"Look at me like that and I slap you."
And this one: "I'll f***ing belt you!!!!
;D
Oh to be a kid again. ^-^
Gozz - you shouldn't have spoken to your parents like that!
After enduring Christmas, no amount of discipline is going to make an ounce of difference when kids see some of the behaviour their parents model for them.
Gozza, that's some disturbing crap :o
LOL@cookie
(http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/beatkid1.jpg)
I have been a fan of maddox for a while and this is one of his most famous offerings.
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=beat
How come everyone today is too much of a pussy to smack their kids around? That's what I want to know: why are parents afraid to beat their kids? When I was a kid and I screwed up, my parents beat my ass. We didn't have a conversation about it. I didn't have a "time out." In fact, I've never even once been grounded in my life. What's the point? Send your kid to his room and make him play video games and read comic books all day? Great idea, why don't you take him to a psychiatrist while you're at it so she can pull some disorder out of her ass to hide the fact that you're a bad parent?
I like this one
The sucker punch. Just ask the question "hey, what's that on your shirt?" and when they look down, bust their lip. You need to do this every now and then to keep them guessing. Don't ever let them off the hook. Just because they're not doing anything wrong doesn't mean that they didn't do something wrong earlier that you weren't aware of.
The old threatening lines. Here are some I remember ;D
"Just wait til we get home".
"Wait til your father gets home".
"I kick ya farking arse that hard you won't sit down for a month!!"
"I'll farking shove ya head up ya arse!!"
And two of my personal favourites:
"Speak to me like that and I'll slap ya face!!!!"
"Look at me like that and I slap you."
And this one: "I'll f***ing belt you!!!!
;D
Oh to be a kid again. ^-^
Gozz - you shouldn't have spoken to your parents like that!
;D ;D
Did anyone here ever get a belting in the car? I remember when we were kids, before we lost our father, we went on a family holiday, driving to NSW. The three of us blued in the back seat all the way there - I thought the old man couldn't do it by driving the car and giving a slap at the same time. He simply took one hand off the wheel, reached around the seat without looking and gave me a beauty. ;D All while driving the car at 100ks down a busy highway. ;D
@LR - Very amusing. ;D
OurTime - please don't tell me you never heard any of those. ;D
The sucker punch. Just ask the question "hey, what's that on your shirt?" and when they look down, bust their lip. You need to do this every now and then to keep them guessing. Don't ever let them off the hook. Just because they're not doing anything wrong doesn't mean that they didn't do something wrong earlier that you weren't aware of.
I remember getting a belting a couple of times for 'just in case'. ;D
For every kid a smack didn't hurt... I reckon there's a thousand that it did.
For every kid a smack didn't hurt... I reckon there's a thousand that it did.
Carn Lods I thought you were old fashion. :P
I got smacked and I hated it.
Though I don't know if it prevented me from going back to doing the naughty things.
How naughty I was I do not know.
Once at about 6 in the morning me and my brother got our arses kicked all around the kitchen because we were blueing and woke the old man up. Chairs flew and everything.
For every kid a smack didn't hurt... I reckon there's a thousand that it did.
Carn Lods I thought you were old fashion. :P
My dad was in the British Army.
He was an Australian overseas in the British Army when the Second World war broke out.
He was captured at Singapore and spent four years in the camps and on the railways.
After the war he joined the Australian Army and was a Sergeant-Major when he eventually left the Army.
He knew a bit about discipline and punishment.
He never once hit me.
I've spent the last 40 years working in Juvenile Detention centres and State Ward homes.
I've seen the result of physical abuse and the circle of violence it creates in young folk.
I know a bit about discipline and punishment.
I've never once hit my own kids (or any other kid)and my kids have turned out fine.
I just don't think it's necessary.
For every kid a smack didn't hurt... I reckon there's a thousand that it did.
Carn Lods I thought you were old fashion. :P
My dad was in the British Army.
He was an Australian overseas in the British Army when the Second World war broke out.
He was captured at Singapore and spent four years in the camps and on the railways.
After the war he joined the Australian Army and was a Sergeant-Major when he eventually left the Army.
He knew a bit about discipline and punishment.
He never once hit me.
I've spent the last 40 years working in Juvenile Detention centres and State Ward homes.
I've seen the result of physical abuse and the circle of violence it creates in young folk.
I know a bit about discipline and punishment.
I've never once hit my own kids (or any other kid)and my kids have turned out fine.
I just don't think it's necessary.
Top post, LODS. Strong.
For every kid a smack didn't hurt... I reckon there's a thousand that it did.
Carn Lods I thought you were old fashion. :P
My dad was in the British Army.
He was an Australian overseas in the British Army when the Second World war broke out.
He was captured at Singapore and spent four years in the camps and on the railways.
After the war he joined the Australian Army and was a Sergeant-Major when he eventually left the Army.
He knew a bit about discipline and punishment.
He never once hit me.
I've spent the last 40 years working in Juvenile Detention centres and State Ward homes.
I've seen the result of physical abuse and the circle of violence it creates in young folk.
I know a bit about discipline and punishment.
I've never once hit my own kids (or any other kid)and my kids have turned out fine.
I just don't think it's necessary.
Top post, LODS. Strong.
Nice post Lods.
I don't spank Lance Jr at all. (and by Lance Jr I mean my son.....)
He can be challenging at times but the mrs keeps telling me that smacking is lazy parenting - and the few times that he has been smacked or heavily disciplined I didn't like the reaction he gave.
I don't spank Lance Jr at all. (and by Lance Jr I mean my son.....)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/feckineejit/LolKitten.jpg)
Do you think a good hiding here and there hurt old Gozza? ;D
Do you think a good hiding here and there hurt old Gozza? ;D
In more ways than one, GozzMan.
Discipline and a good hiding don't go together. There really isn't such a thing as a good hiding. A smack will get someones attention, but they still need to be taught the wrongs of their actions. That requires words and a good talk. How to get it right is all an educated guess. If parenting was to be so simple there would be endless numbers of millionaires who would have written dozens of books on the subject. I might start my book as I speak. :D
Did anyone here ever get a belting, and sent to bed with no tea? I did. ;D
Did anyone here ever get a belting, and sent to bed with no tea? I did. ;D
Nuh. I'd get a belting then be forced to eat my vegetables. Hated veggies as a youngster... and of course was beaten if I didn't eat all the vegetables. I would throw up at times... and of course would be beaten for throwing up!
As I've mentioned before both my parents are/were intelligent people (Mum died at 51 from bowel cancer) just each came from particularly wrong upbringings. My father's upbringing was especially cruel. From a violent father to the Christian Bros in Sydney where all manner of vile thing was done to him.
Do you think a good hiding here and there hurt old Gozza? ;D
Are you saying that's the reason you're an unemployed alcoholic? It is quite possible but in the end we're all responsible for our own actions. I too have realised in my own life there comes a time where you are old enough and mature enough to know what's right or wrong and it's too easy to blame the past for things we do in the present.
We're all very lucky to live in a country like Australia where if you work hard enough and want it badly enough you can make something of yourself. Some think they have it or have had it bad when in reality, we wouldn't have a forking clue what bad really is. I've seen a few real eye opening docos on some Asian and African countries and know all too well what's going on in Greece. One thing I've woken up to over the past probably 3-4 months is that it's never too late too change yourself and make the most of your life, and it's perhaps now the birth of my children that's really given me the drive to be the best person I can be moving forward.......at least for the moment anyhow. We'll see whether I actually go through with it or not. :P
Did anyone here ever get a belting, and sent to bed with no tea? I did. ;D
No I was always fed, but the beltings came from the buckle end of the belt a broom handle or a clenched fist at times too. Its probably a reason I choose to be the exact opposite as a parent.
Do you think a good hiding here and there hurt old Gozza? ;D
Are you saying that's the reason you're an unemployed alcoholic? It is quite possible but in the end we're all responsible for our own actions. I too have realised in my own life there comes a time where you are old enough and mature enough to know what's right or wrong and it's too easy to blame the past for things we do in the present.
We're all very lucky to live in a country like Australia where if you work hard enough and want it badly enough you can make something of yourself. Some think they have it or have had it bad when in reality, we wouldn't have a forking clue what bad really is. I've seen a few real eye opening docos on some Asian and African countries and know all too well what's going on in Greece. One thing I've woken up to over the past probably 3-4 months is that it's never too late too change yourself and make the most of your life, and it's perhaps now the birth of my children that's really given me the drive to be the best person I can be moving forward.......at least for the moment anyhow. We'll see whether I actually go through with it or not. :P
The human condition is vast and varied. The office of presumption is limitless yet almost entirely hollow.
You live your life well Carrots and for this you deserve praise. Your life however is not a tool of measurement for those whom surround you as there are just far to many variables that alter the fate of their existence. Comparisons to other cultures whilst engaging don't necessarily apply in many circumstances.
The one truth that I can say crosses all cultures, race and religion is to "do unto others as they would do to you."
Do you think a good hiding here and there hurt old Gozza? ;D
Are you saying that's the reason you're an unemployed alcoholic? It is quite possible but in the end we're all responsible for our own actions. I too have realised in my own life there comes a time where you are old enough and mature enough to know what's right or wrong and it's too easy to blame the past for things we do in the present.
We're all very lucky to live in a country like Australia where if you work hard enough and want it badly enough you can make something of yourself. Some think they have it or have had it bad when in reality, we wouldn't have a forking clue what bad really is. I've seen a few real eye opening docos on some Asian and African countries and know all too well what's going on in Greece. One thing I've woken up to over the past probably 3-4 months is that it's never too late too change yourself and make the most of your life, and it's perhaps now the birth of my children that's really given me the drive to be the best person I can be moving forward.......at least for the moment anyhow. We'll see whether I actually go through with it or not. :P
The human condition is vast and varied. The office of presumption is limitless yet almost entirely hollow.
You live your life well Carrots and for this you deserve praise. Your life however is not a tool of measurement for those whom surround you as there are just far to many variables that alter the fate of their existence. Comparisons to other cultures whilst engaging don't necessarily apply in many circumstances.
The one truth that I can say crosses all cultures, race and religion is to "do unto others as they would do to you."
Exactamondo. Really well put JK.
Attempting to summarise the GozzMan based on what we know from his posts is unfair and terribly limiting. We can understand some things but not the whole picture. I actually interpreted (rightly or wrongly) the GozzMan's questions as sincere... he may have grown up in a violent family and not know that this is not the norm. Maybe not. He might drink too much to numb lots of emotional pain. Maybe not. He may be unemployed due to a mental illness or is a full-time carer for a relative. Maybe not. But until I know the full story I think I'd rather give him the benefit of the doubt.
See Gozza promotes himself as something on here, that's his choice how he wishes us to perceive him. I'm only going by that.
@JK
I am far from perfect mate, that's the point I'm trying to get across. I can relate to Gozza with regards to upbringing and how it may have affected my choices in life but I have now come to terms with the fact that I'm now at the age where I'm responsible for the choices I make and there's no use looking to the past for excuses. I'm ready to go through with it without a doubt but whether I'm able to or not is another thing altogether and the challenge I now face in life. Am I mentally strong enough to go through with it? Time will tell. I guess that's what I'm trying to say to gozza, you can change without a doubt but you have to want to change first, then you need to go through with it. I have box 1 ticked so far.
I see what you are trying to say Carrots, and I agree.
Last time I was speaking to someone who claimed expert knowledge in this area, she stated that we are determined as a person about 60% by our own genetics , hard wiring if you like, and about 40% by our environment which obviously incorporates upbringing.
Soo, a particular type of upbringing e.g. one that includes spankings, beatings, be-ratings etc. etc. will affect some people very differently to how it would others. Some would be deeply affected in a negative way, others would get through, cope and put it behing them.
Much better off leaving out the corporal punishment altogether IMO.
Well to be quite honest with you, it wasn't just me who'd cop a good hiding...all the blokes I used to knock around with growing up did too.
Could it be an environmental factor of where you live? Do those from affluent suburbs not grow up with such 'disciplinary' measures because their parents are more relaxed...maybe through less financial strain as opposed to those from real blue collar, industrial, working class areas where financial strain may have cancerous repercussions?
Well to be quite honest with you, it wasn't just me who'd cop a good hiding...all the blokes I used to knock around with growing up did too.
Could it be an environmental factor of where you live? Do those from affluent suburbs not grow up with such 'disciplinary' measures because their parents are more relaxed...maybe through less financial strain as opposed to those from real blue collar, industrial, working class areas where financial strain may have cancerous repercussions?
I'd say alcohol consumption and the culture that goes with it would be a far greater contributing factor in domestic violence than where one may live or how much money they may make.
Well to be quite honest with you, it wasn't just me who'd cop a good hiding...all the blokes I used to knock around with growing up did too.
Could it be an environmental factor of where you live? Do those from affluent suburbs not grow up with such 'disciplinary' measures because their parents are more relaxed...maybe through less financial strain as opposed to those from real blue collar, industrial, working class areas where financial strain may have cancerous repercussions?
I'd say alcohol consumption and the culture that goes with it would be a far greater contributing factor in domestic violence than where one may live or how much money they may make.
Alcohol I'm sure would be a major contributor to domestic violence and there's plenty of evidence to support that in this country alone.
I grew up in a small coal-mining community where heavy drinking was virtually everybody's major hobby and fisticuffs was the way to settle most disputes. A pretty brutal place to grow up, more psychologically than physically I guess. I still have problems dealing with people I feel are "soft" and I'd say a certain insensitivity would be a flaw I'd admit to. I knew though that I had to get out of there and I can honestly say it was the best favour I did for myself at a young age. Took a while to shake off some off the baggage though - first step is to become aware of what exactly it is you're carrying - you need good friends to tell you that. Anyway - enough said!
Well to be quite honest with you, it wasn't just me who'd cop a good hiding...all the blokes I used to knock around with growing up did too.
Could it be an environmental factor of where you live? Do those from affluent suburbs not grow up with such 'disciplinary' measures because their parents are more relaxed...maybe through less financial strain as opposed to those from real blue collar, industrial, working class areas where financial strain may have cancerous repercussions?
I'd say alcohol consumption and the culture that goes with it would be a far greater contributing factor in domestic violence than where one may live or how much money they may make.
Alcohol I'm sure would be a major contributor to domestic violence and there's plenty of evidence to support that in this country alone.
I grew up in a small coal-mining community where heavy drinking was virtually everybody's major hobby and fisticuffs was the way to settle most disputes. A pretty brutal place to grow up, more psychologically than physically I guess. I still have problems dealing with people I feel are "soft" and I'd say a certain insensitivity would be a flaw I'd admit to. I knew though that I had to get out of there and I can honestly say it was the best favour I did for myself at a young age. Took a while to shake off some off the baggage though - first step is to become aware of what exactly it is you're carrying - you need good friends to tell you that. Anyway - enough said!
Incredibly impressed, Biscuit 2. Wow, Mate that is really insightful IMHO.
Becoming 'aware' (of your baggage) and
admitting to yourself an 'insensitivity' (toward the imperfections of others) puts you in the 'psychologically courageous' group. No greater courage than to admit publicly your short-coming(s). Quality post, Biscuit 2... serious quality. :)
............... Anyway - enough said!
Incredibly impressed, Biscuit 2. Wow, Mate that is really insightful IMHO.
............ Quality post, Biscuit 2... serious quality. :)
I agree, top post C2 !!!
Well to be quite honest with you, it wasn't just me who'd cop a good hiding...all the blokes I used to knock around with growing up did too.
Could it be an environmental factor of where you live? Do those from affluent suburbs not grow up with such 'disciplinary' measures because their parents are more relaxed...maybe through less financial strain as opposed to those from real blue collar, industrial, working class areas where financial strain may have cancerous repercussions?
I'd say alcohol consumption and the culture that goes with it would be a far greater contributing factor in domestic violence than where one may live or how much money they may make.
Alcohol I'm sure would be a major contributor to domestic violence and there's plenty of evidence to support that in this country alone.
I grew up in a small coal-mining community where heavy drinking was virtually everybody's major hobby and fisticuffs was the way to settle most disputes. A pretty brutal place to grow up, more psychologically than physically I guess. I still have problems dealing with people I feel are "soft" and I'd say a certain insensitivity would be a flaw I'd admit to. I knew though that I had to get out of there and I can honestly say it was the best favour I did for myself at a young age. Took a while to shake off some off the baggage though - first step is to become aware of what exactly it is you're carrying - you need good friends to tell you that. Anyway - enough said!
Cookie...You form a mental picture of posters and their backgrounds etc ...but I always get it wrong :o...Being such a sensible forgiving well adjusted poster I had you from the middle class suburbs with a scar free upbringing and now you are telling me you you lived in a mining town version of the bronx?
re: Gozza...unemployed alcoholic is a bit of a rough description IMO and I wouldnt want to judge anyone on just an internet profile without knowing their whole story...I dont expect Gozza to open up with his personal life on this forum but he seems an intelligent young bloke(and thats not pissing in his pocket) who should be doing more with his life and at this stage needs some encouragement to change his ways.
I'd urge him to set some limits on his drinking and maybe look at some career training in a field he might enjoy...thats not preaching either, but having one of my children go off the rails for a year or two just some advice from someone who initially made the mistake of concentrating on a daughters negatives without working on the positives...
@EB1
You probably got it right in terms of my present comfortable middle class life, but as I said, my earlier years were certainly in a very different place. Not quite the Bronx but certainly no place for softies.
As for Gozz, he's an interesting character and I detect intelligence and some education coming through at times from from his writings. Hopefully his actual drinking exploits don't live up to his reports! :o
Definitely not enough love for Gozza in this thread. :'( ;D
Just read this on wiki -
A 2002 public opinion survey suggested the majority view was in support of retaining parents' right to smack with the open hand but not with an implement,[18] although as of 2010, there are no laws against using an implement in any state or territory. In New South Wales, S61AA of the Crimes Act (1900) allows a parent a defense of lawful correction.[19]
So parents can use a hand but not anything else to belt with. I used to cop the belt, and one christmas day when I was a kid, I even copped a metal table leg off the old man after he'd had too much to drink. Not sure what it was I did, but I got chased around the backyard with it too ;D Put all the money I had towards the bistro setting the old man got off me for christmas, and I ended up wearing it. It went out in hard garbage about a week or so later.
Definitely not enough love for Gozza in this thread. :'( ;D
Just read this on wiki -
A 2002 public opinion survey suggested the majority view was in support of retaining parents' right to smack with the open hand but not with an implement,[18] although as of 2010, there are no laws against using an implement in any state or territory. In New South Wales, S61AA of the Crimes Act (1900) allows a parent a defense of lawful correction.[19]
So parents can use a hand but not anything else to belt with. I used to cop the belt, and one christmas day when I was a kid, I even copped a metal table leg off the old man after he'd had too much to drink. Not sure what it was I did, but I got chased around the backyard with it too ;D Put all the money I had towards the bistro setting the old man got off me for christmas, and I ended up wearing it. It went out in hard garbage about a week or so later.
GozzMan, that is a horror story. However, I can empathise as I was also beaten with 'implements'. One was a small branch off a tree! But his work boots to the guts and head were the most common, along with the fist.
However, I agree entirely with what EB1 wrote. You do come across as having some real grey matter between your lugholes. And like EB1 I don't want to lecture or rescue, but I can tell you that most addictions are very often a means of avoiding hurt/pain.
You mentioned that you don't know what you did for your old man to go you with the leg off the table... that comment implies that you believe you deserved it. No child 'deserves' that kind of abuse. And that was real McCoy abuse. :)
bloody hell..... I just copped a smack or a wooden spoon.
My aunty would threaten me with the a wooden spaghetti server.
Once when I was 8, I got a whole McDonalds meal violently crushed into my face and a couple of good belts across the face/head in the restaurant off the old man who'd been on the piss all day.
Once when I was 8, I got a whole McDonalds meal violently crushed into my face and a couple of good belts across the face/head in the restaurant off the old man who'd been on the piss all day.
Not so happy meal
Once when I was 8, I got a whole McDonalds meal violently crushed into my face and a couple of good belts across the face/head in the restaurant off the old man who'd been on the piss all day.
Not so happy meal
Humiliation meal more like it. ;D Was so embarrassed as tears rolled down my McDonalds covered face in front of everyone. And from memory I went to bed hungry that night too.
Mate, I reckon many folks will read your posts re childhood violence and be shocked and then understand why you do some of the things you do. And unless folks have been through the kind of family violence you talk about (as I, also, have), it would be impossible to really know how humiliating and crushing it is.
And, GozzMan, self medicating with alcohol aint the solution - just numbs the feelings and brings on an early demise.
As an aside and paradoxically, I know there are so many beliefs out there that 'abused' kids become 'abusive' adults. Wrong. I recall how much I hated being beaten and humiliated in public and in front of friends (yep, the old man would 'go to town' on me in front of my male friends and try to root my female friends) and knew from the age of about 12 that there was no way I would treat another human being like this. Glad to say my daughters got loads of encouragement and support... no humiliation, no abuse, no beatings.
What kind of parent do you think you'd be, Cocko? Might be just the thing to get you off the turps!!! :)
Should there be a therapy thread?
People wonder how to handle the parenting gig when they have kids of their own. Imagine parenting your own parent who is sick with heart disease at home, and won't do as they are told or do what is good for them. Refusing to eat. Smoking like a chimney, and just making life difficult for themselves. If there is a book out there on how to do it, send it my way. I thought 5 year olds, and teenagers were hard work. 77 year olds can be even worse.
Once when I was 8, I got a whole McDonalds meal violently crushed into my face and a couple of good belts across the face/head in the restaurant off the old man who'd been on the piss all day.
Gozz...Sorry to hear you had an abusive father and without wishing to intrude on your private life I presume he was equally abusive to other members of your family?
Baggers is asking the same questions I would ask so I wont repeat them.....I dont know Baggers but I can tell he has a genuine interest in your well being and we both hope you can ease off the piss
and deal with what seems to be a rough childhood.
Elwood my past life wasn't any better. If I could remember the number of broken bones it would be a miracle. However mine wasn't always by the parent being intoxicated or under the influence. My step father hated me with a passion and could issue a beating completely sober, and just because I was standing where he didn't prefer me to be. I too offer any support or just to listen to a venting session by any. Gozz has many here willing to listen or offer support. Don't be ashamed by your past life. Just choose to be different for the benefit of the next generation. ;)
Mantis and Gozz post two graphic realities of their childhood existence that defy belief yet are entirely accurate. It truly breaks my heart to read these stories of people who I only know through a footy forum yet I know enough to see them as great people. Gozza mate, as mants says we are all here for you mate and you can change your circumstance for the better if you want.
Should there be a therapy thread?
Big difference between therapy and empathy. Not surprised you don't get what is going on here.
Should there be a therapy thread?
Big difference between therapy and empathy. Not surprised you don't get what is going on here.
I don't get whats going on here - I wasn't a subject to domestic violence. And I am not sure many people (aside from you) could empathise with domestic violence - because thats what Gozzas stating.
In light of that background, Gozza arguably has issues that all the empathy in the world couldn't resolve. I reiterate my original post. He should see someone. I believe the government offers a number of mental health sessions for free or at a subsidised rate. Simply telling him on a forum to 'change' does sweet FA really. If you want to help, offer a solution.
Should there be a therapy thread?
Big difference between therapy and empathy. Not surprised you don't get what is going on here.
I don't get whats going on here - I wasn't a subject to domestic violence. And I am not sure many people (aside from you) could empathise with domestic violence - because thats what Gozzas stating.
In light of that background, Gozza arguably has issues that all the empathy in the world couldn't resolve. I reiterate my original post. He should see someone. I believe the government offers a number of mental health sessions for free or at a subsidised rate. Simply telling him on a forum to 'change' does sweet FA really. If you want to help, offer a solution.
I still don't think you get it.
Many more people have experienced family-of-origin abuse than you may believe.
As EB1 said, we're not on here to delve into other's lives and then hand-out therapy advice (based on the little we know). We're simply expressing (to the GozzMan) an understanding of what he has been through, what some of us have been through or something similar.
Whether or not the GozzMan sees someone for whatever reason is his decision and his decision alone. Many of us have suggested, out of genuine concern for him to at least ease up on the turps.
No one has told him to simply 'change' without also making comments re what might help in some meaningful way.
I have PMd our buddy re meaningful help. And so have a few others. He knows how to get support from buddies on this forum but appropriately that has been expressed privately and he'll action it when he's ready (and might have already done so).
Meanwhile, this thread has, to many folks credit and courage expanded from opinions on 'spanking' to personal experiences and history. An important and strong thred for those interested.
Really impressed with what I am reading from many in this thread. Hats off and well done !!
Elwood my past life wasn't any better. If I could remember the number of broken bones it would be a miracle. However mine wasn't always by the parent being intoxicated or under the influence. My step father hated me with a passion and could issue a beating completely sober, and just because I was standing where he didn't prefer me to be. I too offer any support or just to listen to a venting session by any. Gozz has many here willing to listen or offer support. Don't be ashamed by your past life. Just choose to be different for the benefit of the next generation. ;)
Mants ...equally sorry to hear your childhood was a violent one like Gozza......my father wasnt violent but didnt bother with me too much and I felt ordinary at times but hearing both your stories makes me feel lucky.
You must be a very resilient person to have overcome those bad years and have made a life for yourself with a wife and children....that resilence must be helping you endure those tough years as a Carlton supporter ;)
Elwood my past life wasn't any better. If I could remember the number of broken bones it would be a miracle. However mine wasn't always by the parent being intoxicated or under the influence. My step father hated me with a passion and could issue a beating completely sober, and just because I was standing where he didn't prefer me to be. I too offer any support or just to listen to a venting session by any. Gozz has many here willing to listen or offer support. Don't be ashamed by your past life. Just choose to be different for the benefit of the next generation. ;)
Mants ...equally sorry to hear your childhood was a violent one like Gozza......my father wasnt violent but didnt bother with me too much and I felt ordinary at times but hearing both your stories makes me feel lucky.
You must be a very resilient person to have overcome those bad years and have made a life for yourself with a wife and children....that resilence must be helping you endure those tough years as a Carlton supporter ;)
That's abuse. And it hurts. No child should feel 'ordinary'. Every child should feel important & loved & safe. Abuse / emotional neglect should never be justified. Understood, yes, but never justified.
Every child should grow up understanding reality but believing they can achieve anything... and what it takes.
Wow, what a loaded topic. I don't know what is actually right and neither does anyone here, because there isn't a definitive guide that proves what is right, so we go on what we believe. I will state though that somethings are clearly wrong and parents 'belting' kids is clearly wrong, parents calling kids words like b****, c***, a***hole etc is wrong.
My children are 12 and 13 year old boys and like a lot of children, yes they are not perfect and yes they are a bit lazy around the house and yes they love to wrestle and fight with each other if left to do that, but overall they are well behaved.
They live with me full time with some weekends with their mother, for the majority of their life they lived primarily with her until a few years ago. She cannot discipline the boys at all and they simply do not listen, to the degree that she has to regularly call me when they aroe there and I talk to them and they behave.
I have smacked by boys on the backside during their life, maybe 4-5 times each, for very serious infractions and never hard or with the intent to hurt, their mother however does. Personally I don't like when I do smack them, but it is not done in anger on the times it has been, it has been calculating and done because I believed that a sterner message was needed and the smack was symbolic.
However, what I personally find is that I don't make empty threats ever, for all of our life if I said there was a punishment for an action, there was a punishment, be that 1 month without electronics, 1 week of writing lines after school or off to bed early. If they were warned and subsequently misbehaved, the consequence was enforced.
They know this and when I say to do something it is almost always done immediately, they have hardly ever talked back and they are always complimented on their behaviour in public.
The other thing is that up to this age still, the favorite thing for them to do is something with a parent, be it play basketball, watch a movie, go for a ride or a swim... basically anything.
I think with that being the case, they generally don't want to lose those times and that is far more powerful than a smack could ever be.
I don't judge a parent who thinks a smack on the bottom is the appropriate punishment as often as they reasonably see fit, nor one who has never smacked their child... I think as long as it is not abusive, it is a parental choice.
I think you've got it pretty right. I don't agree with physical punishment though. No human has the right to damage anothers body or cause them pain in my view. Smacking or hitting a kid just brings either resentment or fear. Two things you don't want. Having said this, I've seen your kids and you are a terrific dad.
Elwood my past life wasn't any better. If I could remember the number of broken bones it would be a miracle. However mine wasn't always by the parent being intoxicated or under the influence. My step father hated me with a passion and could issue a beating completely sober, and just because I was standing where he didn't prefer me to be. I too offer any support or just to listen to a venting session by any. Gozz has many here willing to listen or offer support. Don't be ashamed by your past life. Just choose to be different for the benefit of the next generation. ;)
Mants ...equally sorry to hear your childhood was a violent one like Gozza......my father wasnt violent but didnt bother with me too much and I felt ordinary at times but hearing both your stories makes me feel lucky.
You must be a very resilient person to have overcome those bad years and have made a life for yourself with a wife and children....that resilence must be helping you endure those tough years as a Carlton supporter ;)
That's abuse. And it hurts. No child should feel 'ordinary'. Every child should feel important & loved & safe. Abuse / emotional neglect should never be justified. Understood, yes, but never justified.
Every child should grow up understanding reality but believing they can achieve anything... and what it takes.
Lack of an active interest from a parent and sharing of experiences is really a bad thing I agree and can also lead to the child struggling socially and feeling lost in the world due to lack of guidance and teaching. Not saying EB1 has these issues, but it can lead to the child under-achieving or taking a lot longer to realise potential - in some cases never reaching their full potential. I could post a lot more about this but it's getting late.
My dad spent most of my formative years deployed/posted overseas. I often wonder how things would have been if he stayed home.
Yeah I pretty much copped the same from my old man, didn't really GAF or was maybe too tired from work etc to do so. Just made me more determined to do the right thing by my kids, learn from the old man's mistakes. Every time I feel a little lazy with my son I remind myself of this fact and make sure I spend A LOT of quality time with him.
Yeah I pretty much copped the same from my old man, didn't really GAF or was maybe too tired from work etc to do so. Just made me more determined to do the right thing by my kids, learn from the old man's mistakes. Every time I feel a little lazy with my son I remind myself of this fact and make sure I spend A LOT of quality time with him.
Ditto, except I don't have a son yet!
Yeah I pretty much copped the same from my old man, didn't really GAF or was maybe too tired from work etc to do so. Just made me more determined to do the right thing by my kids, learn from the old man's mistakes. Every time I feel a little lazy with my son I remind myself of this fact and make sure I spend A LOT of quality time with him.
Ditto, except I don't have a son yet!
You're a proud uncle though yeah? Practice makes perfect!!
Yeah I pretty much copped the same from my old man, didn't really GAF or was maybe too tired from work etc to do so. Just made me more determined to do the right thing by my kids, learn from the old man's mistakes. Every time I feel a little lazy with my son I remind myself of this fact and make sure I spend A LOT of quality time with him.
Ditto, except I don't have a son yet!
You're a proud uncle though yeah? Practice makes perfect!!
True, and I did lots of practicing for the couple of weeks I was home too !! ;)