I'll be getting home in time to write something on this thread. Weird!
What in God's name happened?
Worst 4 quarters we've played in a while.
Umps gave us a head start and everything.
That felt like a 10 goal hammering. Could barely string 2 possessions together for 3 quarters.
I faaaaarking hate Hawthorn too.
My biggest takeaway is just how many dumb players we have - we're not going anywhere near the top with guys who do thing like Plowman does on such a regular basis. If you didn't see them and want to argue the toss I'll just have to refer you to the replay.
What in God's name happened?
The usual. We got well in front and then $H!T ourselves. Let the other mob in and then shrivelled up into our shell and played bit parts in the reemergence of the great white hope that is Hawthorn. I thought losing to Norf last week would be bad but the effort this week far outweighs that. Back to square one.
Bad timing, Hawks under the media pump, four good ins and we decided that the game was won at quarter time and played bruise free footy after that. For all the Cripps carry on he had a light rotating tag only and had his share of free's.
Pittonet probably wilted under the Hawks ruck combo and the Hawks better players ended up with some easy ball thanks to some poor manning up and lazy inept contesting.
My biggest takeaway is just how many dumb players we have - we're not going anywhere near the top with guys who do thing like Plowman does on such a regular basis. If you didn't see them and want to argue the toss I'll just have to refer you to the replay.
He's bad but he's not alone. The guys who we had glimmers of hope from came back to bite us. See Setterfield, Kennedy, Cunningham, SPS (fa@rk me he was bad) etc. Please, please don't tell me we had to give absolute SPUDS guys like Moore 2 games regardless of how bad he was last week. Truly mind-boggling what goes on at selection. Hope the whole season gets called off after that effort.
We lost it in the first quarter. And that’s a serious statement.
I've stuck up for Murph in the past but he has reached the point where I just expect his kicks will go anywhere else than to one of our players.. Kennedy's another one.
The big problem for me is that while we have some players of size, with a few notable exceptions, they have no idea how to use that size to maximum advantage.
They're big but they don't intimidate....they don't hurt.
Our smaller brigade often get brushed aside much too easily.
We're a weak side...and while we might be able to get away with that in the odd match through the season when we get to the pointy end it won't hold up.
He's bad but he's not alone. The guys who we had glimmers of hope from came back to bite us. See Setterfield, Kennedy, Cunningham, SPS (fa@rk me he was bad) etc. Please, please don't tell me we had to give absolute SPUDS guys like Moore 2 games regardless of how bad he was last week. Truly mind-boggling what goes on at selection. Hope the whole season gets called off after that effort.
Certainly not alone. Our backline just don't have enough mentality about them to stand up under pressure. They panick and lose the game between their ears. Some of those attempts to move the ball out of defence were truly troubling.
I am fed up with this team. They’re young they say. They’re not young ad all. It is our senior players that continually let us down. We were on top and it was like our senior players decided to let hawthorn back o to it with rubbish kick after rubbish kick.
And we know that no Carlton team can Stans yo against pressure.
Never been more angry at a performance Than that one. Writing was on the wall last week
We only scraped thru
Sick of this club giving me false hope. And spare
Me the hawthorn had back to the wall and had to win what a load of absolute crap. We
Died
That was bordering on the unforgiveable. Not the first time I've said it, but Petrevski Seton and an appropriate pick for Papley. Sick of him.
I am fed up with this team. They’re young they say. They’re not young ad all. It is our senior players that continually let us down. We were on top and it was like our senior players decided to let hawthorn back o to it with rubbish kick after rubbish kick.
And we know that no Carlton team can Stans yo against pressure.
Never been more angry at a performance Than that one. Writing was on the wall last week
We only scraped thru
Sick of this club giving me false hope. And spare
Me the hawthorn had back to the wall and had to win what a load of absolute crap. We
Died
Hard to argue with that. Too easy in the 1st and then they were just soft. For the rest of the game hawthorn just wanted to win more. Our guys are so mentally weak.
Certainly not alone. Our backline just don't have enough mentality about them to stand up under pressure. They panick and lose the game between their ears. Some of those attempts to move the ball out of defence were truly troubling.
Midfield refuse to man up, Stats show we have more goals scored by opposing mids than any other teams.
Hawks are treacle like for speed but kept getting on their own.
Agree on Plowman.. had a shocker, Williamson too was poor again and SPS weak at the ball.
The lesser lights who shone last week were also unsighted.
Moore's selection left us one short...
Newnes keeps Fisher out. Moore plays ahead of... anyone. Our MC are on smack.
Newnes keeps Fisher out. Moore plays ahead of... anyone. Our MC are on smack.
At least Newnes kicks goals, but Moore? The worse thing with his absolute non-impact is that when he goes into the ruck we go backwards@!
This mob beat us every time... Every single time, and I'm over it. Massive test tonight and a massive fail.
Callum Moore....we all called it after last week. Are our MC really that gullible? Never again please.
We carry too many passengers when the heat goes on. One wants another year. Not on that effort.
Officially over SPS. Trade bait.
And we've got a problem with our captain... A big problem. He looks glacier slow, he's playing soft and he can't get involved. There must be some issue because he's a shadow of the player he normally is. Since playing the Saints he's been poor.
Our games are so wildly fluctuating. Nearly every game has been the same.
It’s the narrative of these losses which is so demoralizing. Bet your bottom dollar that at least 3 or 4 games a year for over 10 years now have followed this template:
x rediscovered their mojo with a stirring win against the Blues ...
x snapped an x game losing streak with a breakthrough victory ...
Under enormous pressure, coach x pulled off a stunning win against the Blues ...
Well and truly over it.
We missed Jed Lamb....lol.
Shameful performance and expect Freo And WC to be harder
SPS played his worst game for the club, whilst Jones and Plowman reverted to making poor decisions at critical times. That’s 3 of our back six, so you’re on a road to nowhere.
Clarkson also beat us with pace in the front half with Impey, Gunston and Breust all far too quick for our defenders - A fast, strong, medium sized defender is a key recruiting area.
Cunningham, Setterfield, Kennedy, Betts not in the contest at the critical time.
Murphy was far too weak in the contest again and Moore is just a very average footballer.
Teague must make changes on match day when things aren’t going to plan. He’s far to slow to make a move. Cunningham into the middle, Kennedy forward, SPS forward, Betts into the middle for a centre bounce or two etc etc
We missed Jed Lamb....lol.
Good call
We're the Domino's of the AFL... Whenever a club needs a cheap win, just get the CFC in the fixture and we'll oblige with a weak effort. Chuck in FTA (I acknowledge not tonight) and it's just about a guaranteed win for whomever.
I'd back the Adelaide crows against us, that's the kind of game this club continually loses.
David King said last year we are the easiest side to play against. Not meaning we are the worst team but that we allow sides to play their brand against us. When Hawthorn are allowed to play like that they will cut you to pieces.
Time to move a few players on.
We missed Jed Lamb....lol.
I know u were 99% joking but Jed had a mentality to dominate an opponent. That is something we've lacked for a long time.
And it shows on nights like tonight. There is zero mental strength. We need to import something. There is something just missing... spine.
SPS was completely exposed defensively today, if he can't cut it in the middle then we should trade him.
Murphy should just retire now.
Pittonet needs a rest or help. Was slaughtered by the two Hawthorn rucks.
Cripps needs to get back to basics and stop being a hero. He has gone from being the best in the comp to B grade this year.
Midfield refuse to man up, Stats show we have more goals scored by opposing mids than any other teams.
Hawks are treacle like for speed but kept getting on their own.
Agree on Plowman.. had a shocker, Williamson too was poor again and SPS weak at the ball.
The lesser lights who shone last week were also unsighted.
Moore's selection left us one short...
Midfield refuses to get down and dirty and win the farken footy. Manning up is thing of the past.
At least Newnes kicks goals, but Moore? The worse thing with his absolute non-impact is that when he goes into the ruck we go backwards@!
Goodbye Callum, thanks for the fish
Pittonet needs a rest or help. Was slaughtered by the two Hawthorn rucks.
Sorry Mad can't agree on that one. Thought he was one of our best again. Tap work was good, worked tirelessly and used the pill better than our so called "elite" ball users. Do we actually have an elite ball user?
Bitterly bitterly disappointed. This game
And opposition was a real chance to confirm where we are.
Really thought we had improved to a stage where this sort of performance was behind us. I was wrong.
I always compare our rebuild with the loins and hence why I get so frustrated at where they are in comparison to us. When loins were taking a jump up the ladder they crushed the weaker teams and blind freddie could see their improvement.
Thing with us is that we have been so bad for so long we suffering supporters misinterpret any improvement from horrible as if we are on our way to our next flag.
We are still miles off with a mentally weak and physically soft list guilded by you an unproven coach and many major pieces after 5 years rebuilding still missing.
Had a few close wins which has covered the cracks. 5 years on and miles off a top 8 list.
Gutted.
Just revolting. Don’t even know what else to says. My kids want to Barack for another team. Same
Old crap and we are over it.
They are not better than us there Is no reason we gave up. No reason,
Captains should hang their heads In shame. Both disgraceful.
Also can’t stand those Farking money hungry arseholes the hawks have bought in, in wingard scully Frawley yet we make them shine.
screw off
Also is Eddie beyond criticism.
Did stuff all again. Thing is there isn’t exactly heaps of kids knocking the door down to take his spot.
Cunningham is the missing man. his best is good but has no impact way too often to make it.
SPS trade FFS, if we can get something for him
Plowman craps himself at critical times
Cunningham hero one week, useless the next
Our blokes had the fumbles all day, they crap themselves I reckon, heard footsteps
How many dropped/spilled marks by defenders
Cripps has runs on the board so its hard to be overly critical but some of his stuff was embarrassing today.
Would love to see stats broken down per qtr but we seemed to have 3/4 of the team barely touched it after qtr time.
Their insiders beat us up for 3.5 qtrs, their outsiders just sat off in space and made us pay.
H was a good in...not
If I hear one more person say Mitchells possessions dont hurt Ill spew up.
Teaguey and co got owned today, I reckon a certain short statured assistant at Hawthorn will have a very big smile on his face tonight.
If we are entertaining a one year contract with Murphy, we're even dumber than I thought.
Offer Higgins from North a deal, make an offer to Gunston with a swap of picks and player (Williamson or McGovern). Trade SPS to Fremantle for a Vic who wants to come home (maybe Adam Cera / someone else), or try the Eagles with an offer for Gaff. Go again for Papley although I doubt we will be successful. All those players regularly contribute and while SPS has been good at times, he isn't there right now.
All of these guys would have made a difference tonight with more run, hunger and skill set against an ageing Hawks line-up.
I will post in the other thread as this had gone off-topic.
Offer Higgins from North a deal, make an offer to Gunston with a swap of picks and player (Williamson or McGovern). Trade SPS to Fremantle for a Vic who wants to come home (maybe Adam Cera / someone else), or try the Eagles with an offer for Gaff. Go again for Papley although I doubt we will be successful. All those players regularly contribute and while SPS has been good at times, he isn't there right now.
All of these guys would have made a difference tonight with more run, hunger and skill set against an ageing Hawks line-up.
I will post in the other thread as this had gone off-topic.
Alot of merit there, we seem to keep going with the same blokes over and over expecting a different result. Consistently inconsistent are the current crop. Change is required at years end.
stuff Bolton he can enjoy his day apparently on $400j at hawthorn is whether, not fussed.
This is what I saw - don’t worry about plot or Moore. Think of docherty, turnovers under zero pressure. Murphy the same. Cripps tried to be a hero when a hero wasn’t needed - it was all over the socials this week he couldn’t wait to play in front of family and friends. Hope you’re proud of your ‘team’ effort mate. SPS and Martin again, couldn’t wait to play in front of their state. Hope you’re proud?
Levi, hold your head up. Walsh, same. Weiters, again. Everyone else, pull your head out of your arse of stuff off. Sick of it.
And Clarke is a master coach and I am embarrassed he shows us up like that
TdK for Moore, Fisher for Murphy, if Stocker was available I'd swap him for SPS.
TdK for Moore, Fisher for Murphy, if Stocker was available I'd swap him for SPS.
Yes, yes and yes. Although I think Stocker is still in Melbourne? Get you drift there but don't stop at 3.
Couldn't see the game. My Good fortune it seems.
All the criticism of Murphy and Plowman, both who just signed new contracts 😕
I thought players we're bouyed when a new deal is reached.
Sounds like Samo and Willo also performed poorly, and Jonesy at critical times. Regards Crippa, can't help but wonder where his future lies. East or West?
Unfathomable that changes weren't made despite a 10 goal turnaround. Crikey what more evidence do you need?
I think I'll preserve my mental health and give the replay a miss. Very disappointing result.
Yes save yourself
Disgusting display after quarter time.
I don’t recall every being so embarrassed and disgusted.
Also is Eddie beyond criticism.
Did stuff all again. Thing is there isn’t exactly heaps of kids knocking the door down to take his spot.
Cunningham is the missing man. his best is good but has no impact way too often to make it.
Cunningham has resembled Carlton.
Some of our best football this year has been exquisite, better than most teams can hope to produce, but at the other end of the scale some of our football is barely AFL standard. Sometimes we get both in the same game. Some games we can't miss a target, others we can't get within 10m of a target. As Beverige said, our efficiency inside 50 was off that charts, other days it's plainly hopeless.
Those gaps we have to close.
Yes save yourself
Disgusting display after quarter time.
I don’t recall every being so embarrassed and disgusted.
Sad to hear such disillusion from so many Bluebaggers 😪
Hope folk can find some joy over the weekend. Maybe some gardening, or fishing? Or perhaps tune in to watch the Drugcheats lose (22 - 66 3/4 time). Take care
That is the only tiny positive at the moment.
Must say, to me; there was absolutely zero positive to be taken out of our game today and actually lament the rest of our season/s because there is something f rotten there.
Forget last week.
We were lucky.
Oh wow
Anyone watching Brisbane 🥵
Too many pretty boys.
Too much media, too much hype, too little ticker.
Too little effort.
Zero accountability.
Agree the ‘coming home to wa’ media was OTT this week.
MCG didn’t play neither has fisher.
But hey how well did Martin cripps and SPs
play today.?
Thanks for the memories Guys. Really enjoyable crap show for us.
Oh wow
Anyone watching Brisbane 🥵
Nope. I'm watching the Drugcheats- going nowhere 😁
Drugcheats lowest score for the century.
That's not to deny how cr$p we were tonight. Just saying..
Wouldn’t it have been the perfect start to a lockdown weekend to win and see Essendon lose like that
But alas
We follow Carlton 🙄
Wouldn’t it have been the perfect start to a lockdown weekend to win and see Essendon lose like that
But alas
We follow Carlton 🙄
So Hawthorn get that joy.
Still can’t get over how smug we are thinking we could carry Moore again for another week.
Our level of stupidity is beyond belief.
Didn’t Teague say no more gifting games when asked about why fisher is not able to crack into the team.
Fking joke.
Still can’t get over how smug we are thinking we could carry Moore again for another week.
Our level of stupidity is beyond belief.
Didn’t Teague say no more gifting games when asked about why fisher is not able to crack into the team.
Fking joke.
Nothing to do with Moore. Our mids and half backs were diabolical.
Actually, did anyone at all play to a reasonable standard?
Nothing to do with Moore. Our mids and half backs were diabolical.
Actually, did anyone at all play to a reasonable standard?
I don’t think I said the loss was because of Moore.
My point was we are dumb. Fking dumb.
What team gives a second game to a bloke that was gifted a game last week and had one effective disposal.
All while TDKs form warrants selection.
Can’t make any sense of that selection.
Anyhow we saw tonight how far away we still are.
Yep, keep coughing up your memberships $ for this type of crap, when we need a good win most.
But also accept that some idiot let’s his parents take his child or children to dreamworld, or whatever is on the coast. Personally in these times, I find it disgraceful that my hardearned
Go towards paying this fine and have asked their assurance that the player is paying that fine out of his own pocket.
Dumb dumb dumb. Just seriously have a proper look at the rest of Australia and see how damn lucky you are!
Nothing to do with Moore. Our mids and half backs were diabolical.
Actually, did anyone at all play to a reasonable standard?
Cripps won the ball well but had no impact and Weitering was solid down back.
Casboult was OK down forward but like Moore didn't offer much in the ruck.
That's about it imo, very hard to give votes this week...
Teague needs to come out and admit that was unacceptable.
Because that's what it was. Barely that.
And the Captain's do too.
Everyone doesn't win a participation medal FFS.
Agree with all that has been posted. And what was Eddie doing in the last half trying to take spekkies instead of staying down and crumbing the packs?
Lack of discipline, fumbling, dreadful decision making -we've seen it all before. Then we come to Murphy and Gibbons. Both lacked penetration with their inability to keep the ball low and kicking no further than 40 metres.
The Hawk's midfield carved us up time and time again with long precision kicking to position that showed just what a rabble we become when pressure is applied.
Weitering was the only player who deserved his paypacket, the rest were utter crape !!
It must take a certain level of class to go from 31 points ahead to a loss by 31 points in the end. Must be looking so much like a bottom 4 side now. The Eagles will help with that in the next game.
I don’t recall every being so embarrassed and disgusted.
Try 31-Aug-2003 North Melbourne vs Carlton - we lost by 124 points with players openly arguing with each other on the field. North players were laughing at us (as were the fans).
that was pretty stanky fer sure. i'm gonna say just the one positive thing. even the best teams put out a stinker every so often. that was certainly one of ours. almost to a man.
i agree with TDK & Fisher coming in.
willo has looked shaky for a few weeks, but i'm pretty confident he'll get better, has lots of tools and always looks interested.
setterfield, kennedy, newnes, sps, cuningham all had their worst games of the year, sadly all on the same day. slaughtered in the midfield. crippa tried to break his form slump but botched it.
i just think the hawks wanted it more tonight. anyone who says otherwise has a point, but i disagree. they were stung as i mentioned pregame, and had an injection of 4 class players. i saw this one coming.
Every game so far this round one side has been really flat and horrible to say the least.
It's the next day, and so frustrated about this that sleeping has been impossible, I'm posting embarassing gibberish and dragging this site down, so apologies to all..... Gotta go for a walk and take a break. Going to ban myself for a while, best wishes to you all in these uncertain times, may we all come out stronger in the long run.
I don’t think I said the loss was because of Moore.
My point was we are dumb. Fking dumb.
What team gives a second game to a bloke that was gifted a game last week and had one effective disposal.
All while TDKs form warrants selection.
Can’t make any sense of that selection.
Anyhow we saw tonight how far away we still are.
^^^^
It's the next day, and so frustrated about this that sleeping has been impossible, I'm posting embarassing gibberish and dragging this site down, so apologies to all..... Gotta go for a walk and take a break. Going to ban myself for a while, best wishes to you all in these uncertain times, may we all come out stronger in the long run.
No need to apologise. We’re all in this together (the shared pain of being a Blues supporter, not COVID).
Those frauds spoilt my Friday pizza night. Again.
“Gibberish” is a word I’d use to describe the last 3 quarters. Clarkson wrote the script on how to beat Carlton. I think Teague *is* developing his own playbook and style, but he’s yet to learn to tweak it to counteract particular strengths of other clubs. Hawks cut us up (as usual) with gut running & long passing. When they switched play on some occasions last night you could see 3 or 4 knackered blue boys out of position jogging across to try and catch their men.
As others have said, lack of on field leadership and the need for another elite mid remains our Achilles heel.
It's the next day, and so frustrated about this that sleeping has been impossible, I'm posting embarassing gibberish and dragging this site down, so apologies to all..... Gotta go for a walk and take a break. Going to ban myself for a while, best wishes to you all in these uncertain times, may we all come out stronger in the long run.
Such is the impact Carlton has on its fans nowaday, brilliant one minutes, shambolic the next. Chin up ol boy, the sun came up today as it will tomorrow, don't stress over it, there are way more important things in life than a game of footy.
No need to apologise. We’re all in this together (the shared pain of being a Blues supporter, not COVID).
Those frauds spoilt my Friday pizza night. Again.
“Gibberish” is a word I’d use to describe the last 3 quarters. Clarkson wrote the script on how to beat Carlton. I think Teague *is* developing his own playbook and style, but he’s yet to learn to tweak it to counteract particular strengths of other clubs. Hawks cut us up (as usual) with gut running & long passing. When they switched play on some occasions last night you could see 3 or 4 knackered blue boys out of position jogging across to try and catch their men.
As others have said, lack of on field leadership and remains our Achilles heel.
Makes it hard to provide leadership when the two captains were two of the offenders, Doc in particular got taken down town a few times by his man. As for Cripps trying to show boat and use that blistering speed and those dancing feet of his all the time, embarrassing. And dont gimme any of that "he's trying to do it all himself" rubbish. Real leadership is when you win the footy then bring others into the game by getting it out quick. Crippa will be right disappointed with his game last night.
Try 31-Aug-2003 North Melbourne vs Carlton - we lost by 124 points with players openly arguing with each other on the field. North players were laughing at us (as were the fans).
Or R17, 2015 : Hawks 27.11 (173), Blues 4.11 (35). This was after John Barker had "unshackled" the players, and they certainly played with gay abandon.
Such is the impact Carlton has on its fans nowaday, brilliant one minutes, shambolic the next. Chin up ol boy, the sun came up today as it will tomorrow, don't stress over it, there are way more important things in life than a game of footy.
Yes, I agree. The improvement over the last 12 months is obvious for all to see. Hawks have several 3x, 4x premiership players, some good traded players, and Clarkson. They weren't going to be rubbish forever, and sooner or later were bound to show something.
For all their recent form woes, don’t forget that the Hawks have beaten the Tigers AND THE LIONS this year. Their ladder position is not a true reflection of the danger they posed.
Cripps hardly covered himself in glory last night. I'm not quite sure who to blame the most but Teague is certainly in the picture. Selecting Moore was a bloody stupid decision and if we trade SPS, you won't see me shedding a quiet tear. That was a black day where we collapsed like a 2 dollar store umbrella in a rainstorm.
We're the club that has two speeds plus a once a year meeting with a 'Dishlishers' who we easily account for.
Speed one is a narrow loss or win. Speed two is being easily accounted for and as I mentioned, speed 3 is reserved for one game a year when we win comfortably... a la Dishlickers at the present moment. We could just as easily be sitting 2nd bottom with one win at present.
What exactly is our culture; our brand? Seems pretty mysterious to me. Something like, 'when things are going our way we finesse and look fantastic and kick goals... until our opponents turn up, apply pressure, then we go to water.' Seems when we're ferocious, we do well but that ferocity is very conditional and fluctuates and is entirely dependent upon what the opposition does... it's apparently a very moody ferocity.
Our conservatism at the selection table is telling and needs changing. I understand we want to send a message to blokes that we trust them and that they belong... but there should be another message, 'perform poorly and you're out, plenty of blokes/newbies who deserve a gig to take your place'.
When we were desperate against the Dawks how 'individual' did we play... holy mackerel, so many trying to be the 'saviour'... symptom of poor discipline and no culture/brand.
As for individuals... what the hec is up with Crippa? Doc troubled by attention and lack of freedom... there go the skippers. Cuningham does his usual invisible man stunt for extended periods and then gives us hope with a sublime goal, only to shrink away again. Murphy makes demoralising errors... and when a leader (?) does that the negative ripple effect is influential. What you see with SPS is what happens when a creative bloke is given a negative role.
I wonder if the coaching ranks need a Ross Lyon... someone who understands high levels of discipline and has a bit of shizen on his liver to pass on to others. Our niceness is a serious issue, and not in a good way.
We need to make some very hard decisions at year's end re personnel and assistant coaches.
For all their recent form woes, don’t forget that the Hawks have beaten the Tigers AND THE LIONS this year. Their ladder position is not a true reflection of the danger they posed.
They were at the beginning of the year when the Tiggers and Lions hadn't gotten into stride. Bottom line is that yesterday we were beaten by an ordinary side in poor form. And just for consistency, the week before against the Kangabies we narrowly won against an ordinary side in poor form. No matter how you cut it, it was a poor performance, an undisciplined performance, a performance from a side that wilted badly under pressure. No excuses. We have issues, big issues.
I refuse to believe Cripps isn't injured...probably multiple niggles.
He's lost his acceleration/burst.
He's making promises his body can't keep.
The problem is a 75% Cripps is still better than most, if not all, of our other midfielders, so he keeps playing...to the detriment of his own reputation
Thought the players let Teague down, hallmark of his coaching is if we go down we go down swinging. This game after the Hawks upped the pressure we gave in, weak contests, lazy chasing, avoiding heavy contact and waiting for a teammate to do the
work. Too many of our players give inconsistent effort and that's a tough problem for any coach.
We had probably three decent players for the game... Playing group and leaders need condemning and not the coach..
Thought the players let Teague down, hallmark of his coaching is if we go down we go down swinging. This game after the Hawks upped the pressure we gave in, weak contests, lazy chasing, avoiding heavy contact and waiting for a teammate to do the
work. Too many of our players give inconsistent effort and that's a tough problem for any coach.
We had probably three decent players for the game... Playing group and leaders need condemning and not the coach..
Does Teague need to develop a (dreaded) Plan B though.
It is a bit of an all or nothing approach.
When it goes off the boil like last night it's a problem that's difficult to recover from.
Okay sleeping on it, and remembering more that the Lions smashed Essendon, I'm feeling a bit better than yesterday. >:D Just!
We were on top ,that first quarter was what my dreams are made of. Then our momentum stopped - because of 3 in a row turnovers under zero pressure by our guys. Literally kicking it directly to a hawk on his own. then the backs get caught out of position and they get goals.
Incredibly disappointed in our guys and didn't feel like Teague did anything to change the game either. Maybe his philosophy is all in, no matter what. Boys to back themselves and keep going.
I remember a similar game against Hawthorn, we were on holiday on the Gold coast and settled in to watch a 'sure win', and 'we had turned the corner' and we were 'on the way up' only to get destroyed by hawthorn. Same crap, different year.
Mostly it’s inconsistent effort but for some It’s consistently weak efforts.
We all lauded Bryce Gibbs but he struggles to break into a team that’s last on the ladder and I suspect that what would also be happening to Marc Murphy at another side. His weak efforts in the middle are simply not acceptable. I can’t watch him anymore - it’s forward pocket or nothing for Murphy at this rate.
SPS hasn’t kicked a ball more than 15m all year and seems obsessed with dinking it around the background like a scared rabbit. He looks incredibly slow and weak at the moment and he’s clearly, very clearly, not a defender because he cannot tackle and is very slow to stay with his opponent. He is being played out of position and we need him delivering to our forward 50, it’s midfield or nothing for him.
Betts, Cunningham, Setterfield, McKay might as well have not unpacked their bags at the ground. Kennedy tries but isn’t too flash.
I see from the Carlton website that Brodie Kemp is chocked full of confidence so hopefully he can walk the talk next year and I’d love to see what TDK and Josh Honey can deliver soon.
One area that really sticks out is the uncontested game. When you see such a large discrepancy between the two teams, the first two things I think of are structure and work rate. if they're taking too many uncontested marks and the ball is moving forward, it's too easy to gain territory, and if we lose the ground ball uncontested, it's too many easy chains of possession to break away from congestion. That's where they really smashed us IMO. The contested game was a lot more even, although they were still slightly ahead. After 1/4 time, they were simply hungrier and prepared to work harder in my view.
Thought the players let Teague down, hallmark of his coaching is if we go down we go down swinging. This game after the Hawks upped the pressure we gave in, weak contests, lazy chasing, avoiding heavy contact and waiting for a teammate to do the
work. Too many of our players give inconsistent effort and that's a tough problem for any coach.
We had probably three decent players for the game... Playing group and leaders need condemning and not the coach..
One other thing I noted apart from the fumbling yesterday was the number of times there was a ball to be at ground level and our blokes stood around and watch each other only to have a Hawthorn player grab it and take it away. Thats weak IMO, scared for the contest.
One area that really sticks out is the uncontested game. When you see such a large discrepancy between the two teams, the first two things I think of are structure and work rate. if they're taking too many uncontested marks and the ball is moving forward, it's too easy to gain territory, and if we lose the ground ball uncontested, it's too many easy chains of possession to break away from congestion. That's where they really smashed us IMO. The contested game was a lot more even, although they were still slightly ahead. After 1/4 time, they were simply hungrier and prepared to work harder in my view.
Personally, I fell it's been that way all season, I said as much in the pre-game thread. I think it was just a matter of time before a better ball using team exposed it, when we loose the football we look out of the contests. It's just that when we can maintain enough football it is a hidden defect, last night they dominated possession and once they got it outside we couldn't get it back.
One other thing I noted apart from the fumbling yesterday was the number of times there was a ball to be at ground level and our blokes stood around and watch each other only to have a Hawthorn player grab it and take it away. Thats weak IMO, scared for the contest.
Maybe worried about too many htb free kicks ?
Personally, I fell it's been that way all season, I said as much in the pre-game thread. I think it was just a matter of time before a better ball using team exposed it, when we loose the football we look out of the contests. It's just that when we can maintain enough football it is a hidden defect, last night they dominated possession and once they got it outside we couldn't get it back.
Yes, maybe you're right.
We're the club that has two speeds plus a once a year meeting with a 'Dishlishers' who we easily account for.
Speed one is a narrow loss or win. Speed two is being easily accounted for and as I mentioned, speed 3 is reserved for one game a year when we win comfortably... a la Dishlickers at the present moment. We could just as easily be sitting 2nd bottom with one win at present.
What exactly is our culture; our brand? Seems pretty mysterious to me. Something like, 'when things are going our way we finesse and look fantastic and kick goals... until our opponents turn up, apply pressure, then we go to water.' Seems when we're ferocious, we do well but that ferocity is very conditional and fluctuates and is entirely dependent upon what the opposition does... it's apparently a very moody ferocity.
Our conservatism at the selection table is telling and needs changing. I understand we want to send a message to blokes that we trust them and that they belong... but there should be another message, 'perform poorly and you're out, plenty of blokes/newbies who deserve a gig to take your place'.
When we were desperate against the Dawks how 'individual' did we play... holy mackerel, so many trying to be the 'saviour'... symptom of poor discipline and no culture/brand.
As for individuals... what the hec is up with Crippa? Doc troubled by attention and lack of freedom... there go the skippers. Cuningham does his usual invisible man stunt for extended periods and then gives us hope with a sublime goal, only to shrink away again. Murphy makes demoralising errors... and when a leader (?) does that the negative ripple effect is influential. What you see with SPS is what happens when a creative bloke is given a negative role.
I wonder if the coaching ranks need a Ross Lyon... someone who understands high levels of discipline and has a bit of shizen on his liver to pass on to others. Our niceness is a serious issue, and not in a good way.
We need to make some very hard decisions at year's end re personnel and assistant coaches.
Very good summation, excellent in fact however a couple things if I may:
- There is absolutely nothing "fericious" about the way we play, ever, zero, zilch. That the BIGGEST problem we have. Richmond are ferocious all day every day, Hawks were once upon a time, doggies are every now and then, us? Nope.
- SPS is cooked. He isn't a defender, he isn't a mid, he isn't a fwd, he isnt a negating player, he is a liablity. He alone yesterday caused 3 goals by either fumbling, lack of awareness, got tackled and didnt dispose. Cant or doesnt kick more than 15-20m. If we lucky, a WA club will trade with us for him. Ive been a big critic from very early, I was told to be patient, he's creative, rubbish. He IS NOT the type player we need.
- Cunningham, see SPS.
Personally, I fell it's been that way all season, I said as much in the pre-game thread. I think it was just a matter of time before a better ball using team exposed it, when we loose the football we look out of the contests. It's just that when we can maintain enough football it is a hidden defect, last night they dominated possession and once they got it outside we couldn't get it back.
Downhill skiers
We're the club that has two speeds plus a once a year meeting with a 'Dishlishers' who we easily account for.
Speed one is a narrow loss or win. Speed two is being easily accounted for and as I mentioned, speed 3 is reserved for one game a year when we win comfortably... a la Dishlickers at the present moment. We could just as easily be sitting 2nd bottom with one win at present.
What exactly is our culture; our brand? Seems pretty mysterious to me. Something like, 'when things are going our way we finesse and look fantastic and kick goals... until our opponents turn up, apply pressure, then we go to water.' Seems when we're ferocious, we do well but that ferocity is very conditional and fluctuates and is entirely dependent upon what the opposition does... it's apparently a very moody ferocity.
Our conservatism at the selection table is telling and needs changing. I understand we want to send a message to blokes that we trust them and that they belong... but there should be another message, 'perform poorly and you're out, plenty of blokes/newbies who deserve a gig to take your place'.
When we were desperate against the Dawks how 'individual' did we play... holy mackerel, so many trying to be the 'saviour'... symptom of poor discipline and no culture/brand.
As for individuals... what the hec is up with Crippa? Doc troubled by attention and lack of freedom... there go the skippers. Cuningham does his usual invisible man stunt for extended periods and then gives us hope with a sublime goal, only to shrink away again. Murphy makes demoralising errors... and when a leader (?) does that the negative ripple effect is influential. What you see with SPS is what happens when a creative bloke is given a negative role.
I wonder if the coaching ranks need a Ross Lyon... someone who understands high levels of discipline and has a bit of shizen on his liver to pass on to others. Our niceness is a serious issue, and not in a good way.
We need to make some very hard decisions at year's end re personnel and assistant coaches.
Need to think more with the head and not frustrations. Not alot of huge decisions need to be made. Right now we're typical of up and coming sides. The good and not so good players will sort itself out in the wash.
2 days ago we were a loss to Melbourne and a goal after the siren from being equal top of the ladder. Would've been an over-achievement but 4-5 is probably slightly unders and a sign of our inconsistencies as up coming sides are like. 5-4 would probably be closer. Just got to accept they'll be frustrations along the way.
Get rid of the inconsistencies and that'll see a huge change. We'll see more like the Dogs and Geelong games and less like last night, Melbourne and St.Kilda.
We're 10-10 from the last 20. Bet you'd have accepted that after being 1-11 and embarrassing. Too many want it to happen overnight.
While it's not the reason we lost, it clear 3 days of Clarkson bemoaning umpires has an effect, there were clear differences in how the rules were implemented last night to previous rounds. Whether you think that is good or bad is irrelevant, it's the inconsistency in the way the rules are implemented by umpires on the night that plagues the support.
Years ago I would leave a lot of games and think that was a great game, win or lose, you felt it was a fair contest and if you didn't win they were just better, harder, faster on the day. Very few games would I leave and think we were jibbed, now under the modern three umpiring regime most losses you feel jibbed, and you could sense the change in last nights game after 1/2-time. Then at the end the soft irrelevant free kicks on the wing evening up the count.
Something is very very wrong with the sport, when complaining coaches are rewarded for umpire criticism. It's not good enough from the Big House, they need to start handing out 6 figure fines to coaches and clubs for bringing the game into disrepute. Clarkson, Dimma and Scott in particular are professionals at it, they do it because they know it works, they aren't just bitching. No wonder opposition hang their heads, they must feel powerless like victims! There is a reason Clarkson looked like he'd crap the bed in the coaches box, despite his team cruising to victory!
Thought the players let Teague down, hallmark of his coaching is if we go down we go down swinging. This game after the Hawks upped the pressure we gave in, weak contests, lazy chasing, avoiding heavy contact and waiting for a teammate to do the
work. Too many of our players give inconsistent effort and that's a tough problem for any coach.
We had probably three decent players for the game... Playing group and leaders need condemning and not the coach..
A mate of mine says one thing only ad nauseum to me, "we lack c@#$ right across the board". Back in the day we had it in spades.
Downhill skiers
No, it's probably a leg speed issue, we have too many who aren't able to keep up with elite runners.
It's time for Simmo, maybe sMurph as well.
Clarkson tore the top heavy team selection an new one last night, I thought it might happen in the pre-game and it eventuated. It doesn't help when 204cm McKay is penalised for an arm chop, then just 15s later at the other end O'Brien does identically the same to the front positioned Weitering and it's play on goal Hawthorn.
The disparity is glaring!
A mate of mine says one thing only ad nauseum to me, "we lack c@#$ right across the board". Back in the day we had it in spades.
This is part of it too, something the Robbo or Fev haters need to get their head around, it's not about being Mr Nice on and off the field, because the pricks will walk all over you on it!
Last night we saw guys like Cripps and Casboult decelerate into collisions with smaller opponents, it's untenable for players that size not to be holding their line and hurting smaller opponents. Then you see a player like Burgoyne or Sicily smashing our little blokes.
Hawks pre game were the worst ball using team in the comp.
Didn't look like that to me and I think they have some very high quality users..
Stats can be twisted when a couple of players are very bad but you have to look closer at individuals.
A mate of mine says one thing only ad nauseum to me, "we lack c@#$ right across the board". Back in the day we had it in spades.
Our big men are gentle giants.
Our smalls are much too light to impact.
Hawks pre game were the worst ball using team in the comp.
Didn't look like that to me and I think they have some very high quality users..
Stats can be twisted when a couple of players are very bad but you have to look closer at individuals.
The difference is because the Holding the Ball implementation change last night, that enabled them to get their old structures back and working around stoppages and get some free numbers outside.
The bad Dawks ball using stats were because in previous weeks they were continually stuck in traffic under pressure.
A mate of mine says one thing only ad nauseum to me, "we lack c@#$ right across the board". Back in the day we had it in spades.
I call it Von Trapp syndrome, by trying to avoid knob head players we have also avoided those players with mongrel.
GWS have similar issues....its held them back imo.. they have to keep reinventing Mumford and with Ward always injured that only leaves Greene who has some agro.. Great skills but Cogs, Kelly, Whitfield etc are so nice and friendly..
The difference is because the Holding the Ball implementation change last night, that enabled them to get their old structures back and working around stoppages and get some free numbers outside.
The bad Dawks ball using stats were because in previous weeks they were continually stuck in traffic under pressure.
It's certainly possible IMO. As you say, his whining earlier in the season was very specific and intended to produce a desirable result.
I call it Von Trapp syndrome, by trying to avoid knob head players we have also avoided those players with mongrel.
GWS have similar issues....its held them back imo.. they have to keep reinventing Mumford and with Ward always injured that only leaves Greene who has some agro.. Great skills but Cogs, Kelly, Whitfield etc are so nice and friendly..
I agree.
But I'd take Whitfield in a heartbeat, but he needs to come with a Greene, in fact Toby Greene might be perfect for us!
I suspect we have to move the older types on before this happens, the Simmo and sMurph types, we've too many OH&S Safe Workplace types. It leaves us as fodder for the kents, over and over again!
Need to think more with the head and not frustrations. Not alot of huge decisions need to be made. Right now we're typical of up and coming sides. The good and not so good players will sort itself out in the wash.
Can't agree. I am simply commenting on presenting symptoms and facts. We're a moody side and have been for a long, long time... it's ingrained and we've been overtaken by sides who were in a similar situation to us not too long ago.
We've been up-and-coming for many years and the same symptom has persisted for at least the last 7 years... fold under pressure/ferocity from opponents, regardless of where they are on the ladder.
We and BrisVegas were in a very similar circumstance a few years back... with very similar age profiles. Their culture has changed and is definitive. Our culture has not changed, or at best is confusing but is certainly not definitive.
The 'she'll be right/lots like us/typical of up-and-comer' explanations don't wash with me - a recipe for ordinariness. And, 'The good and not so good players will sort itself out in the wash' is... well, wishy washy.
I stand by my comments that we're undisciplined and fold under pressure. We're still too nice and too introverted. What if the TT is getting the very best from this group at present?
As for your suggestion, '2 days ago we were a loss to Melbourne and a goal after the siren from being equal top of the ladder'... well that's every bit as invalid/irrelevant as my comment that we could be on the bottom. We are where we deserve to be... in the bottom section, and an erratic, inconsistent side that opponents know is fragile when the heat is brought.
Ignoring or pretending that the concerning symptoms can be explained away or not to be overly concerned about is a recipe for... well... more of the same, same old same old.
Firstly, Pittonet is a reasonable ruckmen, he has potential to improve and can play at the level.
But, I suppose we saw last night why the Dawks let Pittonet go, their ageing fill-in/placeholder rucks turned him into a puddle.
First post in a long time.
Murphy is gone. Without doubt, the worst turnover merchant in Carlton's history.
SPS not good enough, not strong enough.
Cunningham, doesn't want to get hurt. Couldn't stick an easy tackle in the first minute of the first quarter. Played one good game, the rest hopeless. Kicks the easy goal off other players hard work.
Ploughman, the least intelligent defender in the league, and there are a few of them around.
Moore, the less said the better.
Betts is past it. They won't drop him, and he'll kick the odd goal, but this must be his last year.
JACK MARTIN. The lazy way he ran at the Port Adelaide player in the last 40 seconds of that game, who then got the ball and resulted in the winning goal, watch the replay again if you missed it, is symptomatic of how his tackling effort fades away during a game. And his inexcusable turnovers by foot, are embarrassing for a player of his ability.
I'm not going to go through the rest of them, I'll just leave the last blast for the coach.
MAKE SOME FREAKING POSITIONAL CHANGES DURING A GAME WHICH MIGHT CHANGE THE COURSE OF THE MATCH, INSTEAD OF SITTING IN THE BOX WITH A BLANK LOOK ON YOUR FACE, YOU IMBECILE.
IF YOU ARE INCAPABLE OF DOING THAT, THEN RESIGN AND LET US GET A COACH WHO CAN THINK OUTSIDE THE SQUARE. ONE EXAMPLE, YOU LEFT JONES ON THE PORT ADELAIDE FULL FORWARD DIXON THE WHOLE GAME. YOUR EXCUSE AT THE PRESS CONFERENCE, WE THOUGHT HE WAS DOING A FAIR JOB. IMBECILES, ALL OF YOU. IT COST US THE GAME BECAUSE YOU WOULDN'T AT THE VERY LEAST, GIVE WEITERING A GO ON HIM.
Yes, I'm upset. I reckon we need to recruit better, stronger, players, and we need a coach who is less a mate of the players, and more a tough disciplinarian, and has the foresight and intelligence to make changes and try something different during a game.
We are so inconsistent, we could come out and knock off the Eagles next week.
But if we do, don't let that fool you.
Let's just get through this cr@ppy year, and hopefully we get Charlie back, and Brodie Kemp can be all that he showed he could be, before he got the ACL. Eddie and Murphy retire, Simmo, retire, trade SPS and a pick for Papley and give Teague an experienced assistant.
Then we might get somewhere.
Let's just get through this cr@ppy year, and hopefully we get Charlie back, and Brodie Kemp can be all that he showed he could be, before he got the ACL. Eddie and Murphy retire, Simmo, retire, trade SPS and a pick for Papley and give Teague an experienced assistant.
I'm worry that Barker has been a constant through the recent disappointing period, I realise everybody loves him, he is a nice bloke, but he's taken over the midfield and stoppages this year and Cripps looks broken.
I do not dare look at the history of Barker's responsibilities and our performance or player issues.
Is this unfair?
Can't agree. I am simply commenting on presenting symptoms and facts. We're a moody side and have been for a long, long time... it's ingrained and we've been overtaken by sides who were in a similar situation to us not too long ago.
We've been up-and-coming for many years and the same symptom has persisted for at least the last 7 years... fold under pressure/ferocity from opponents, regardless of where they are on the ladder.
We and BrisVegas were in a very similar circumstance a few years back... with very similar age profiles. Their culture has changed and is definitive. Our culture has not changed, or at best is confusing but is certainly not definitive.
The 'she'll be right/lots like us/typical of up-and-comer' explanations don't wash with me - a recipe for ordinariness. And, 'The good and not so good players will sort itself out in the wash' is... well, wishy washy.
I stand by my comments that we're undisciplined and fold under pressure. We're still too nice and too introverted. What if the TT is getting the very best from this group at present?
As for your suggestion, '2 days ago we were a loss to Melbourne and a goal after the siren from being equal top of the ladder'... well that's every bit as invalid/irrelevant as my comment that we could be on the bottom. We are where we deserve to be... in the bottom section, and an erratic, inconsistent side that opponents know is fragile when the heat is brought.
Ignoring or pretending that the concerning symptoms can be explained away or not to be overly concerned about is a recipe for... well... more of the same, same old same old.
Thinking with your frustrations not your head. Too many of the usual knee jerk reactions. You have to accept they'll be up and downs at this stage and bad losses. We had out and out brilliance, Geelong and Bulldogs, and we've had shockers. Actually, it's only the 2nd hammering under Teague in 20 games and everyone loses their mind. We have quite a bit to go but the scoreboard shows we are alot better. Have a bad loss and everyone goes crazy. No proper analysis just knee jerk crazy. Not that bad losses are acceptable but they will happen. If people can't they are following the wrong sport. We have to sort out the difference between good and bad.
We are so inconsistent, we could come out and knock off the Eagles next week.
But if we do, don't let that fool you.
If we do it'll again show we are on the way up. Like any side on the way up they'll be ups and downs and real inconsistencies.
Coach is 10-10, better than 1-11, 2-20. Doesn't happen overnight as much as everyone wants it to.
Thinking with your frustrations not your head. Too many of the usual knee jerk reactions. You have to accept they'll be up and downs at this stage and bad losses. We had out and out brilliance, Geelong and Bulldogs, and we've had shockers. Actually, it's only the 2nd hammering under Teague in 20 games and everyone loses their mind. We have quite a bit to go but the scoreboard shows we are alot better. Have a bad loss and everyone goes crazy. No proper analysis just knee jerk crazy. Not that bad losses are acceptable but they will happen. If people can't they are following the wrong sport. We have to sort out the difference between good and bad.
@laj
We are breaking Cripps Laj, we can't keep doing this crap over and over again and expect to make progress.
Clarkson had his whinge, perhaps got some favour from the umpires, but the win came because he exposed the same old same old not because of the umpires. It's just the umpiring leaves fans with that perception of being ripped off!
Clarkson looked like the Grinch that Stole Christmas last night, I haven't seen him like that since he put the mocker on Fev's 100th goal kicking at Etihad.
But the loss is due to fundamental list issues, you can put an end to Clarkson's tactics quite easily, but you have to have players willing to get down and dirty! You can't win playing fair, he's developed tactics that disable fair opponents!
MAKE SOME FREAKING POSITIONAL CHANGES DURING A GAME WHICH MIGHT CHANGE THE COURSE OF THE MATCH, INSTEAD OF SITTING IN THE BOX WITH A BLANK LOOK ON YOUR FACE, YOU IMBECILE.
If we can see the effin' obvious, then he bloody well should.
Looks like the honeymoon is over.
When do these guys get sick of losing. Five goals up and start playing Hollywood. They start going for the ball with their arms instead of their bodies, they stop playing as a team, most selfish game I have ever see Patrick Cripps play, Murphy's kicking was appalling and there was absolutely no midfield pressure at all. If you can't win the ball and if you can't kick it to a team mate when you have got it, you are not going to win many games of football. Hawthorn's football IQ is so much superior to ours. They all can see an advantageous match up, they will all work out how to block an opponent to allow a team mate to have a free run at the ball and when they get their foot on the throat of an opposition team, they don't lift it off, unlike us. You think there is light at the end of the tunnel and it is always an oncoming train. I am really sick of it. The question is when will the players?
Every now and then I pop onto the Bomberblitz after their losses for a bit of light entertainment.
Unfortunately, it is becoming the same here - losses are the result of:
- lack of heart/will/on-field leadership
- coaching panel needs to go/develop another plan
- players are dumb
- umpires robbed us (not the case this week)
Hawks gave us plenty of space in the first quarter. Once they denied us that, we had no idea how to create it ourselves (work hard), or cope with their pressure (work hard) or cope with our turnovers (manning up from time to time wouldn't hurt) - just assumed that if we try to play the way we did (without actually doing that), we would win.
Very disappointing.
Every now and then I pop onto the Bomberblitz after their losses for a bit of light entertainment.
Unfortunately, it is becoming the same here - losses are the result of:
- lack of heart/will/on-field leadership
- coaching panel needs to go/develop another plan
- players are dumb
- umpires robbed us (not the case this week)
............................................
I'm surprised to hear that you've noticed a change, since in my 15 years of being here, those reasons have been given since day 1, unless my memory is faltering.
Thinking with your frustrations not your head. Too many of the usual knee jerk reactions. You have to accept they'll be up and downs at this stage and bad losses. We had out and out brilliance, Geelong and Bulldogs, and we've had shockers. Actually, it's only the 2nd hammering under Teague in 20 games and everyone loses their mind. We have quite a bit to go but the scoreboard shows we are alot better. Have a bad loss and everyone goes crazy. No proper analysis just knee jerk crazy. Not that bad losses are acceptable but they will happen. If people can't they are following the wrong sport. We have to sort out the difference between good and bad.
You obviously don't have a problem with mediocrity and that's okay, but many of us do. You can apply academic explanations and excuses to satisfy your perspective, perfectly okay for you, perhaps, but not for many others. Each entitled to our opinions... but I'll stick with the self-evident facts/proof.
We're 12th, just, that's a fact - bottom 6 seems our place. We're erratic and weak under pressure... evidence is ample. When opponents don't bring heat, we look a million bucks, when they do bring heat we fall apart - poor leadership, poor discipline, become a bunch of individuals. But we are very, very nice.
Let's just agree to disagree.
I agree.
But I'd take Whitfield in a heartbeat, but he needs to come with a Greene, in fact Toby Greene might be perfect for us!
I suspect we have to move the older types on before this happens, the Simmo and sMurph types, we've too many OH&S Safe Workplace types. It leaves us as fodder for the kents, over and over again!
Agree.. Greene would make a lot of CSC members happy, gives you grunt, skill and kicks goals plus can play onball.
He is maligned and has created some of his own problems but in the hands of the right coach and leaders would go to another level imo.
I'm worry that Barker has been a constant through the recent disappointing period, I realise everybody loves him, he is a nice bloke, but he's taken over the midfield and stoppages this year and Cripps looks broken.
I do not dare look at the history of Barker's responsibilities and our performance or player issues.
Is this unfair?
Agree, Barker should have gone with Bolton..
While it's not the reason we lost, it clear 3 days of Clarkson bemoaning umpires has an effect, there were clear differences in how the rules were implemented last night to previous rounds. Whether you think that is good or bad is irrelevant, it's the inconsistency in the way the rules are implemented by umpires on the night that plagues the support.
Years ago I would leave a lot of games and think that was a great game, win or lose, you felt it was a fair contest and if you didn't win they were just better, harder, faster on the day. Very few games would I leave and think we were jibbed, now under the modern three umpiring regime most losses you feel jibbed, and you could sense the change in last nights game after 1/2-time. Then at the end the soft irrelevant free kicks on the wing evening up the count.
Didn't we get the first 8 or so free kicks?
@laj
We are breaking Cripps Laj, we can't keep doing this crap over and over again and expect to make progress.
Clarkson had his whinge, perhaps got some favour from the umpires, but the win came because he exposed the same old same old not because of the umpires. It's just the umpiring leaves fans with that perception of being ripped off!
Clarkson looked like the Grinch that Stole Christmas last night, I haven't seen him like that since he put the mocker on Fev's 100th goal kicking at Etihad.
But the loss is due to fundamental list issues, you can put an end to Clarkson's tactics quite easily, but you have to have players willing to get down and dirty! You can't win playing fair, he's developed tactics that disable fair opponents!
Fact is we are making progress, last night was part of the caper of making progress unfortunately. Old habits will die hard at this stage. We've had some great wins with Cripps being down this year. Cripps also needs to realise he doesn't always have to do it himself these days.
You obviously don't have a problem with mediocrity and that's okay, but many of us do. You can apply academic explanations and excuses to satisfy your perspective, perfectly okay for you, perhaps, but not for many others. Each entitled to our opinions... but I'll stick with the self-evident facts/proof.
We're 12th, just, that's a fact - bottom 6 seems our place. We're erratic and weak under pressure... evidence is ample. When opponents don't bring heat, we look a million bucks, when they do bring heat we fall apart - poor leadership, poor discipline, become a bunch of individuals. But we are very, very nice.
Let's just agree to disagree.
Another knee jerk post. Fancy assuming I'm happy with mediocrity. Stupid thing to say. No I don't accept mediocrity, but I accept when a side up and coming that mediocrity will sometimes happen. Funny about that. You just keep working on it. Difference is I think with my head, not my frustrations.
The side has improved out of sight from 12 months ago and you know it. That's our 2nd thrashing in 20 games. Had losses we shouldn't have frustratingly had but that's part of it right now. If we didn't have then we would literally have been sitting on top of the ladder before last night, but we're not because at our stage of development were are still inconsistent, often during the same game. That's the reason why we are 10-10 under Teague, not 13-7 or 14-6. That's the one step stopping us from becoming a top side and will take time. But, hey, because we copped a shocker last night we are suddenly no good. Games like last night show us what we need to take the next step.
You expect it to happen overnight and get the craps when it doesn't happen. I know it takes time. As I said, can't cope with the ups and downs of the journey you're following the wrong sport.
Noticed Clarko getting his usual media coverage.
Hoping the win over Carlton will be the turning point for the Hawks!!!
I'm sick to death of our club winning that accolade 😠
we are to slow especially from defence and midfield ,over to our recruitment dept. Our coaches get rid teflon JB,bring ross lyon in to help teaguey and sps goes to mid and save himself or trade. Can we use plowman and kennedy in a trade scenario both to slow.
Another knee jerk post. Fancy assuming I'm happy with mediocrity. Stupid thing to say. No I don't accept mediocrity, but I accept when a side up and coming that mediocrity will sometimes happen. Funny about that. You just keep working on it. Difference is I think with my head, not my frustrations.
The side has improved out of sight from 12 months ago and you know it. That's our 2nd thrashing in 20 games. Had losses we shouldn't have frustratingly had but that's part of it right now. If we didn't have then we would literally have been sitting on top of the ladder before last night, but we're not because at our stage of development were are still inconsistent, often during the same game. That's the reason why we are 10-10 under Teague, not 13-7 or 14-6. That's the one step stopping us from becoming a top side and will take time. But, hey, because we copped a shocker last night we are suddenly no good. Games like last night show us what we need to take the next step.
You expect it to happen overnight and get the craps when it doesn't happen. I know it takes time. As I said, can't cope with the ups and downs of the journey you're following the wrong sport.
Is it improvement or change? Bolton had a streak of 6 out of 7 wins in his first year. If you take a 10-20 game sample set from that year, my gripe then (as it is now), the same things were happening despite some wins. So despite the changes, we still (as we have in the past from as far back as MM):
- Miss easy shots at goal
- Dont play 4 qtrs
- Have too many passengers
- Have poor decision makers
- Give away too many stupid frees
- Persist with players who arent up to it
- Have poor starts
- Wilt under pressure
- Forgo big leads
- Play sides into form
I consider Clarkson the best coach going around, has been for a long time. If he came to our club tomorrow, you would see some change BUT all the above dot points would continue to occur. WIth the exception of no 6, they are player issues not a coaching IMO.
The difference is because the Holding the Ball implementation change last night, that enabled them to get their old structures back and working around stoppages and get some free numbers outside.
The bad Dawks ball using stats were because in previous weeks they were continually stuck in traffic under pressure.
They also saw the return of 4 of their top 22 last night.
They also saw the return of 4 of their top 22 last night.
Yep their ins were good....Bruest loves playing us, Ceglar partnered with McEvoy gave them dominance in the ruck and Impey was annoying at times as he does provide pace they dont have.
Retaining Moore left us one short and Pittonet on his lonesome, with Casboult having to shoulder the forward work...
Yep their ins were good....Bruest loves playing us, Ceglar partnered with McEvoy gave them dominance in the ruck and Impey was annoying at times as he does provide pace they dont have.
Retaining Moore left us one short and Pittonet on his lonesome, with Casboult having to shoulder the forward work...
Combined with a fired up disproportionately powerful coach and.. bazinga
Put a rookie coach on the receiving end and it's a perfect storm. That's no disrespect to DT btw, just a fact.
No excuses, Hawks had lost 4 in a row and were smashed by Melbourne last week. We are better than them man for man all over the ground and they pumped us.
Another knee jerk post. Fancy assuming I'm happy with mediocrity. Stupid thing to say. No I don't accept mediocrity, but I accept when a side up and coming that mediocrity will sometimes happen. Funny about that. You just keep working on it. Difference is I think with my head, not my frustrations.
The side has improved out of sight from 12 months ago and you know it. That's our 2nd thrashing in 20 games. Had losses we shouldn't have frustratingly had but that's part of it right now. If we didn't have then we would literally have been sitting on top of the ladder before last night, but we're not because at our stage of development were are still inconsistent, often during the same game. That's the reason why we are 10-10 under Teague, not 13-7 or 14-6. That's the one step stopping us from becoming a top side and will take time. But, hey, because we copped a shocker last night we are suddenly no good. Games like last night show us what we need to take the next step.
You expect it to happen overnight and get the craps when it doesn't happen. I know it takes time. As I said, can't cope with the ups and downs of the journey you're following the wrong sport.
You believe the present performances are okay or to be expected, I don't. I don't accept many performances this year as simply part of the process, you do. I get it. Terms like 'knee jerk' and 'stupid thing to say' don't strengthen your argument, invalidate the others argument or suddenly make your perspective better or right.
At the risk of being repetitive and for the sake of clarity, I clearly understand that I'm not going to change your perspective and let me assure you, no matter how hard you try, you're sure as hell not going to change mine. And I'm 100% okay with that.
The only thing that will change my perspective at present is on-field performance... not words, not lovely pictures, not terrific interviews, not manipulated statistics, not your words... just performing a whole lot better, and consistently. Remember, we started this year with a stated goal and expectation of winning. My comments are against that backdrop.
I repeat, let's agree to disagree.
No excuses, Hawks had lost 4 in a row and were smashed by Melbourne last week. We are better than them man for man all over the ground and they pumped us.
Big call, huge call.
Can I add one other thing, in his presser, Teague stated something along the lines of "people are calling for a good start, I dont know if thats the best for us". I found that bizarre.
Can I add one other thing, in his presser, Teague stated something along the lines of "people are calling for a good start, I dont know if thats the best for us". I found that bizarre.
Yep, I agree. Almost sounded like he thinks catch up footy works best for the team.
Can I add one other thing, in his presser, Teague stated something along the lines of "people are calling for a good start, I dont know if thats the best for us". I found that bizarre.
I also found that comment perplexing. Maybe he was trying to be funny... either way, it was not a good look and sounded like he'd cracked it. Maybe that's what he needs to do, crack the sh1tes and unleash his 'inner tyrant' ...or as my sister would say before she's about to pay out on someone... 'right, no more Mr Nice Guy!'
I'm wondering whether we've prepared for this season with the view that we'll run over other sides with superior fitness.
As such we may have trained with a bit less emphasis on size and strength and more on general endurance...a gradual wearing away rather than a frantic start.
We prepared to play the long game but with reduced quarters that became less of a factor.
I'm wondering whether we've prepared for this season with the view that we'll run over other sides with superior fitness.
As such we may have trained with a bit less emphasis on size and strength and more on general endurance...a gradual wearing away rather than a frantic start.
We prepared to play the long game but with reduced quarters that became less of a factor.
I actually wondered the same thing, Principal LODS, but the TT said a few weeks back that after the Tiggers game we trained for shortened games and shortened breaks between games - that we were ready, fitness and endurance wise, for the present fixture.
Didn't we get the first 8 or so free kicks?
What is the relevance, Clarkson's bleating was about a very specific set of circumstances. Anyway I qualified my comments to after 1/2-time.
What is the relevance, Clarkson's bleating was about a very specific set of circumstances. Anyway I qualified my comments to after 1/2-time.
If the umps were favouring Clarko they wouldn't have paid the first 8 frees to us would they? We have been shafted a few games this year but yesterday was not one of them.
If the umps were favouring Clarko they wouldn't have paid the first 8 frees to us would they? We have been shafted a few games this year but yesterday was not one of them.
Clarkson specifically bleated about holding the ball decisions inside the stoppages, and as a side line threw some rocks at Papley about milking frees, that was clearly adjudicated differently last night than it has been for weeks. Excluding the last few minutes when they went back the other way.
I actually defended Clarkson earlier in the week because the media verballed him over Papley.
Why would you come on here defending Clarkson bagging umpires anyway, do you like Clarkson, Dimma, Scott, et.al always bleating about the umpires?
I was actually glad to hear Teague say when asked about eh umpires that "He doesn't get too far into that!" Leave it to the official channels.
btw., I don't think the emphasis just change in our game, it appears to have changed in implementation across the board. Really, it's moved back to what it was more like in seasons past, and benefited coaches who stubbornly refuse to change their plan, and disadvantaged coaches who setup for the new 2nd Rnd interpretation.
Simple they were due for a win we were due for a loss, they bought in fresh players we flogged the same guys week after week. Finals fantasy over time to play fisher cottrell honey tdk etc with fresh legs and see what they can do. I also hate the crap Russell says about not being ready to play until a player does a “conditioning block”
If you can get the ball and kick it your conditioned enough
Simple they were due for a win we were due for a loss, they bought in fresh players we flogged the same guys week after week. Finals fantasy over time to play fisher cottrell honey tdk etc with fresh legs and see what they can do. I also hate the crap Russell says about not being ready to play until a player does a “conditioning block”
If you can get the ball and kick it your conditioned enough
Fresh legs, good point. Might need to rest a few and blood a few, might work.
I actually think reality is biting.
Our best players Generally when we win are the old guard. The new guard that has come up is.... cripps, Walsh.... and weitering.
Who else do you ever feel 100% confident with,
How depressing.
I actually think reality is biting.
Our best players Generally when we win are the old guard. The new guard that has come up is.... cripps, Walsh.... and weitering.
Who else do you ever feel 100% confident with,
How depressing.
One of the concerning factors there is that Cripps is probably not in that new guard. He's 25 now and the manner in which he plays means that he may not play long into his 30s. So the window of success with Cripps is a narrowing one.
Weitering was a standout number one no-brainer and is starting to fulfil that potential.
While there may be some argument over whether Walsh was the best choice I'm more than happy with that selection.
But 100% confident with others...nope.
Not until we start to get some consistency of performance.
In 2017 we had five rising star nominations in a season. Marchbank, SPS, Cunningham, Silvagni, Curnow.
Fast forward 3 years(and yes injury has played a fair part) but all these guys should now be hitting their peaks instead they struggle with injury or inconsistency.
Dow, Fisher, O'Brien are also players who should now be regular top 22.
Instead we have something of an old guard propping us up.
Something needs to click soon.
Saturday night salt on Friday’s wound - Josh Kennedy sinks the Cats. The Judd deal officially became the “Dud” deal at 5:04pm on 29th September, 2018.
Back on point - what a fascinating team we are! Are there any psychologists/psychiatrists on this forum? When Hawthorn kicked those last 2 goals of the 1st quarter how many of us could see the fear in our boys eyes? That’s where it starts. I swear it’s almost like the players have a focus control knob, similar to binoculars. It slides a little and suddenly the ball isn’t bouncing where it should, the distance between you and your teammate is ‘off’, a bogey man lurks in the shadows.
Brisbane and Saints had no trouble scooting to a lead and then going on with it.
wtf is wrong with us?
Agree. Wayne Carey says 85% of football is played between the ears.
We know the list is fit and all the skills were on display for the first quarter and a half.
What happened in the halftime break?
Before worrying about bringing in new talent we need to clean up this mental fragility that persists year after year.
Perhaps we should be recruiting sports psychologists as a matter of urgency.
Saturday night salt on Friday’s wound - Josh Kennedy sinks the Cats. The Judd deal officially became the “Dud” deal at 5:04pm on 29th September, 2018.
Back on point - what a fascinating team we are! Are there any psychologists/psychiatrists on this forum? When Hawthorn kicked those last 2 goals of the 1st quarter how many of us could see the fear in our boys eyes? That’s where it starts. I swear it’s almost like the players have a focus control knob, similar to binoculars. It slides a little and suddenly the ball isn’t bouncing where it should, the distance between you and your teammate is ‘off’, a bogey man lurks in the shadows.
Brisbane and Saints had no trouble scooting to a lead and then going on with it.
wtf is wrong with us?
I would have thought after the 3rd goal in the second, you do something to stop the run/rot. Whether it be structural, something illegal, anything. We got off to a good start in the 2nd by kicking the first. They then kicked 9 of the next 10. How does that happen?
Could it be as simple as too many contests too many weeks in a row?
Thinking laterally, we've been "up against it" in pretty much every game.
Hopefully this is the match to forget and we'll recover from here. Add some sore bodies and an opposition with a point to prove and its a recipe for fridays match.
Lets see if it changes. Its the first real black mark on teagues coaching journey since the final round last year.
Lets not forget the whole covid situation is one where mental strength is required and our lads haven't been renowned for it.
Not sure we would have many sore bodies, we didn't exactly attack the ball well, or chase and tackle with much zest.
It was bruise free stuff with little intent after quarter time, we should be fresh as daisies..
Saturday night salt on Friday’s wound - Josh Kennedy sinks the Cats. The Judd deal officially became the “Dud” deal at 5:04pm on 29th September, 2018.
Back on point - what a fascinating team we are! Are there any psychologists/psychiatrists on this forum?
*
Yes. Late home from work, so didn't see the game. I made the decision not to watch the game - for my own MH 😉
The mind and body are intertwined with such complexity and there's a multitude of variables at play. Including group and individual factors, and static and dynamic variables. All which may manifest as a strength or limitation.
No doubt an experienced Sports Psy is a good addition to any elite sporting team.
*
When Hawthorn kicked those last 2 goals of the 1st quarter how many of us could see the fear in our boys eyes? That’s where it starts. I swear it’s almost like the players have a focus control knob, similar to binoculars. It slides a little and suddenly the ball isn’t bouncing where it should, the distance between you and your teammate is ‘off’, a bogey man lurks in the shadows.
Brisbane and Saints had no trouble scooting to a lead and then going on with it.
wtf is wrong with us?
I also hate the crap Russell says about not being ready to play until a player does a “conditioning block” If you can get the ball and kick it your conditioned enough
Far from sold on him ... for now
One of the things that Teague does as a coach is one of the bad habits Ratts had when he was our coach: he is not willing to make position changes very quickly.
It is one thing to have a plan A and to trust it, to put faith in the players who have the jobs. But it is another not to make a change to alter the flow of the game.
When we have a few guys down, one of the best things for them to have a positional change. Barassi and Parkin were good enough at that: they were not dissing the guys who were moved and the players knew it. We haven't had a coach to really do that this century.
One of the things that Teague does as a coach is one of the bad habits Ratts had when he was our coach: he is not willing to make position changes very quickly.
It is one thing to have a plan A and to trust it, to put faith in the players who have the jobs. But it is another not to make a change to alter the flow of the game.
When we have a few guys down, one of the best things for them to have a positional change. Barassi and Parkin were good enough at that: they were not dissing the guys who were moved and the players knew it. We haven't had a coach to really do that this century.
Good point Crash. A few others commented as much. We've heard DT say he prefers backing the players in. Whilst that's good for certain aspects, it has limitations. An experienced coach imo educates the players about when, why, and how variation to that ethos occur. The leaders on field are then responsible to execute change. Not sure we've got either coach or leadership practices to pull that off at this stage.
Hopefully it's identified in the "learnings" taken from the game. It will take time to amend and master. We know time is one of the game's most precocious commodities, so the heat remains.
Simple they were due for a win we were due for a loss, they bought in fresh players we flogged the same guys week after week. Finals fantasy over time to play fisher cottrell honey tdk etc with fresh legs and see what they can do. I also hate the crap Russell says about not being ready to play until a player does a “conditioning block”
If you can get the ball and kick it your conditioned enough
Those days are over Tommy, the demands of the modern game now are totally different. Just being able to get a kick or finding the footy doesnt cut it, players who arent conditioned WILL breakdown and suffer soft tissue injuries.
Those days are over Tommy, the demands of the modern game now are totally different. Just being able to get a kick or finding the footy doesnt cut it, players who arent conditioned WILL breakdown and suffer soft tissue injuries.
Yes, with games so close together and the intensity so high the body has to be really good to go to absorb the pressure.
Apologies for getting grumpy last night.
Yes, with games so close together and the intensity so high the body has to be really good to go to absorb the pressure.
Apologies for getting grumpy last night.
All good mate, at the end of the day, we all want the same thing, we all react differently but I think I can speak for most people on here and say that our hearts are in the right place,
Not sure we would have many sore bodies, we didn't exactly attack the ball well, or chase and tackle with much zest.
It was bruise free stuff with little intent after quarter time, we should be fresh as daisies..
Nah i was talking about the weekly physical and mental toll. North worked us over last weekend and we looked a bit flat. The port game before that was a bit gruelling. Add a cross country journey and you end up with us flying for a quarter and then crashing and burning.
My only real issue was the deer in headlights stuff we saw.
Interesting Cripps was the only player to get an AFLCA vote, shows you a bit about how coaches think and what they value.
Makes you wonder what they think Weitering did wrong! :o
Not sure about coach votes but...
Just generally....
Weitering's probably at that stage where in the past folks have probably put him down as a player who wouldn't quite reach the potential his under18 career suggested he might.
Now gradually they're starting to take notice, but his true value is still underestimated by a lot of the general football public, despite some of the 'scalps' he's taken this year.
If folks are fair dinkum I reckon he should be right in consideration for AA honours this year
In a year or two I suspect he'll be regarded by all as one of the premier defenders in the comp.
Looks like the honeymoon is over.
While in perception it may be true, in reality Teague is still just a beginner for a variety of reasons, he needs to be judged in his 3rd year.
Why do I think this;
- Firstly, he is a newbie with new tricks, opposition coaches are yet to see or learn them, it takes a few games before they are prepared for coaching against Teague so in the short term he has an advantage in this area. The Dawks are probably his worst case, as BB has all the inside guff so Teague's advantage is minimised!
- Secondly, he is yet to be exposed to all the tricks of opposition coaches so he has to learn them, this is his big disadvantage. It's easy to learn about opposition players, even your own players, you have so much video available on them. But it is too hard to tell from video what was a coaches move and what was a player acting with initiative.
- Thirdly, our team still has relatively little experience of Teague's style and what works and what doesn't. So the players will do stuff outside the plan, acting with initiative or in the old ways that they think might help, it might help but it can also unravel Teague's plans. It takes a season or two to get this right.
- Finally, Teague has to demonstrate that once opposition coaches get a handle on his style that he can do something outside the box. Something that sets his team free of opposition countermeasures. It's not something you can learn overnight, and I doubt you can ever learn it as 2IC no matter how long you've been there. It's a big chair thing, and is as much about player management as it is about team tactics.
No doubt, he's a standout Lods. A major one and among the first picked and blue chip.
.....................................................
If folks are fair dinkum I reckon he should be right in consideration for AA honours this year
In a year or two I suspect he'll be regarded by all as one of the premier defenders in the comp.
There's some in the media who talking him up as potential AA, so he is getting some attention.
until we find strong/quick two way runners ,we can spin it all we like.
I read this on another forum, I thought this poster provided a very good assessment.
This is not my post but somebody elses (excuse the typos, I copied and pasted verbatim):
"I thought watching the game was frustrating. Geez reading alot of dribble on here.
Any chance we can have a proper disection of the game instead of we r no good this blokes a dud blah blah blah. Surely we r better than that.
1st qtr 7 turnovers which is elite.
2nd qtr 13 of which the majority were unforced..not a direct result of Hawthorn pressure.
2nh half 41...world record pace.
Heres a fact not an opinion. We have less turnovers when we score heavily..logical. Again as in first qtr.
Ive been on here so often talking about our mfield.
This is still our biggest issue. When the pace is on in the game there is less squeezing of space and when we go quick we often get through and score.
Its not coincidence we r playing on quick ..its what Teague wants. All our issue happen when the game slows and the opp squeeze space. We just carnt get through and we turnover the ball horribly consistently trying to penetrate. Teague doesnt want our backs kicking from a stationay position..holding the ball thinking thinking thinking. He knows whats gunna happen we all do. If the reason he has samo playing there..If u recall at half time v port he gave an interview where he said he told them that if they carnt go quick he wants to go long very long down the line. But his preference is to go quick.
This is why i say our mfield is the issue. We just dont have enough depth of exp or quality yet to keep the pace on long enough in games. This has gotten better but still needs to go up a couple more notches. Its a smart game plan esp with the talls we have..give em more chances to go 1 on 1 but also limits the thinking guys have to do eith the footy..the more u think more chance u have of turning it over.
Our whole season have reflected this...we have scored in chunks very quicly and conceded in chunks very quickly against all levels of teams. So Teagues challenge for the forseeable future is to get OUR style for long enough to win games until this depth and exp grows. Fisher Dow Philp Kemp LOB stocker are still mids we have who could help this.
So maybe in the short term we could
Rotate more guys through the mfield for longer like martin cunners gibbo eddy
Playing de koning who is a genuine ruck and can rest pitt a bit more instead of more
Maybe doc or willo for a spell
Maybe rotating guys from game to game to keep them fresher
Maybe giving cripps the dusty role fulltime
This all could happen and maybe u guys have a few others..but i think teaguey is reluctant to do this too much cause hes trying to build continuity with game plan and blokes playing certain roles
So unfortunatley we may see these fluctuations in games continue fir a while yet unless he can come up with something in the gameplan which allows us to at the very least get inside 50s because as i said at the start when ball is in hand of alot of our blokes and they had to think their way through the kick we all know whats coming.
Just all think Richmond. As bout as average a team to win a flag based on pure talent as there has been in the last 40 yrs. 4 yrs ago they had blokes who couldnt hit the side of the barn from 5 m. Going nowhere with a gamellan which required precise kicking. Gone to the simllest gamepkan u can have. Havent looked back
And havent looked back cause they can llay it for longer than their opp can play theirs. Thats teagues challenge in the short term..he need to get a little creative"
R9 votes :
(http://home.spin.net.au/boristhebeetle/R9.png)
Interesting thoughts GTC - thanks for posting.
@GTC
Thanks for posting GTC. Some very interesting thoughts and insights in there and much that I would agree with.
We were on top ,that first quarter was what my dreams are made of. Then our momentum stopped - because of 3 in a row turnovers under zero pressure by our guys. Literally kicking it directly to a hawk on his own. then the backs get caught out of position and they get goals.
The fumble from Kennedy in the first Q, 45 out, directly in front, about to run into an open goal (when it had just been Pitto, to Cripps, dance a couple of Hawks, handball to a running Kennedy, plop) - felt HUGE at the time..... would have made it 6 goals to none, and the ease with which that goal should have been kicked would have been a heartbreaker for the Hawks.
But no, he drops it, and you could feel momentum swinging thru the TV.
I read this on another forum, I thought this poster provided a very good assessment.
This is not my post but somebody elses (excuse the typos, I copied and pasted verbatim):
"I thought watching the game was frustrating. Geez reading alot of dribble on here.
Any chance we can have a proper disection of the game instead of we r no good this blokes a dud blah blah blah. Surely we r better than that.
1st qtr 7 turnovers which is elite.
2nd qtr 13 of which the majority were unforced..not a direct result of Hawthorn pressure.
2nh half 41...world record pace.
Heres a fact not an opinion. We have less turnovers when we score heavily..logical. Again as in first qtr.
Ive been on here so often talking about our mfield.
This is still our biggest issue. When the pace is on in the game there is less squeezing of space and when we go quick we often get through and score.
Its not coincidence we r playing on quick ..its what Teague wants. All our issue happen when the game slows and the opp squeeze space. We just carnt get through and we turnover the ball horribly consistently trying to penetrate. Teague doesnt want our backs kicking from a stationay position..holding the ball thinking thinking thinking. He knows whats gunna happen we all do. If the reason he has samo playing there..If u recall at half time v port he gave an interview where he said he told them that if they carnt go quick he wants to go long very long down the line. But his preference is to go quick.
This is why i say our mfield is the issue. We just dont have enough depth of exp or quality yet to keep the pace on long enough in games. This has gotten better but still needs to go up a couple more notches. Its a smart game plan esp with the talls we have..give em more chances to go 1 on 1 but also limits the thinking guys have to do eith the footy..the more u think more chance u have of turning it over.
Our whole season have reflected this...we have scored in chunks very quicly and conceded in chunks very quickly against all levels of teams. So Teagues challenge for the forseeable future is to get OUR style for long enough to win games until this depth and exp grows. Fisher Dow Philp Kemp LOB stocker are still mids we have who could help this.
So maybe in the short term we could
Rotate more guys through the mfield for longer like martin cunners gibbo eddy
Playing de koning who is a genuine ruck and can rest pitt a bit more instead of more
Maybe doc or willo for a spell
Maybe rotating guys from game to game to keep them fresher
Maybe giving cripps the dusty role fulltime
This all could happen and maybe u guys have a few others..but i think teaguey is reluctant to do this too much cause hes trying to build continuity with game plan and blokes playing certain roles
So unfortunatley we may see these fluctuations in games continue fir a while yet unless he can come up with something in the gameplan which allows us to at the very least get inside 50s because as i said at the start when ball is in hand of alot of our blokes and they had to think their way through the kick we all know whats coming.
Just all think Richmond. As bout as average a team to win a flag based on pure talent as there has been in the last 40 yrs. 4 yrs ago they had blokes who couldnt hit the side of the barn from 5 m. Going nowhere with a gamellan which required precise kicking. Gone to the simllest gamepkan u can have. Havent looked back
And havent looked back cause they can llay it for longer than their opp can play theirs. Thats teagues challenge in the short term..he need to get a little creative"
.
On the latter, nothing like the chaos ball going forward, throws out the opposition interceptors and as long as there is tremendous F50 pressure it becomes tough for the opposition to get it out of the defensive 50. There's been games we have been very good with our F50 pressure when switched on but when not quite so switched on we seem to find the opposition going forward with precision. Also when switched on, eg Geelong, Dogs, our ball use and efficiency into the F50 was, as Bevo said, off the charts. It's either the best going or the worst going. Probably needs time to properly establish our plan and consistency, both physically and mentally.
What happened last week, I don't know. It's possible with all the hubs shifting and moving so sides were just mentally and physically flat. We just fell away so whether we were tired. Not sure. Usually when we are committed out of the blocks from the start we rarely lose. If we do it's in a very competitive fashion. So don't know what happened Friday. While learning from it best to not get caught up either. It's just one week and every side turns in shockers occasionally. Even in our greatest era, 1979-82 we turned in some horrors. It happens. Do it for a few weeks then it's a concern.
While in perception it may be true, in reality Teague is still just a beginner for a variety of reasons, he needs to be judged in his 3rd year.
Why do I think this;
- Firstly, he is a newbie with new tricks, opposition coaches are yet to see or learn them, it takes a few games before they are prepared for coaching against Teague so in the short term he has an advantage in this area. The Dawks are probably his worst case, as BB has all the inside guff so Teague's advantage is minimised!
- Secondly, he is yet to be exposed to all the tricks of opposition coaches so he has to learn them, this is his big disadvantage. It's easy to learn about opposition players, even your own players, you have so much video available on them. But it is too hard to tell from video what was a coaches move and what was a player acting with initiative.
- Thirdly, our team still has relatively little experience of Teague's style and what works and what doesn't. So the players will do stuff outside the plan, acting with initiative or in the old ways that they think might help, it might help but it can also unravel Teague's plans. It takes a season or two to get this right.
- Finally, Teague has to demonstrate that once opposition coaches get a handle on his style that he can do something outside the box. Something that sets his team free of opposition countermeasures. It's not something you can learn overnight, and I doubt you can ever learn it as 2IC no matter how long you've been there. It's a big chair thing, and is as much about player management as it is about team tactics.
Teague isn't in any immediate strife....and two years+ is probably about the time frame before any serious moves come.
I probably should have added a few smiley emoticons with my 'honeymoon over' comments.
It was a bit of 'self-forum depreciation'
I was thinking more in terms of the way the forums/facebook pages tend to work.
Any new coach gets a bit of a honeymoon period but then slowly the criticisms come....just a trickle at the start but if there is lack of success that criticism grows.
The 'taller the poppy' the quicker the criticism.
That's the very core of these places...we all see things a little differently. We sometimes don't consider aspects before others point them out.
A coach's demise is not usually a sudden thing. It's a trickle effect and very much result driven.
That's why the "We have to give them time!" argument for officials, admin, coaches and players doesn't really fit the discussion/ forum model.
It's an ongoing evaluation process.
Teague certainly has a few years to prove himself but as he works to create success his performance will continue to attract scrutiny...and that will be very much based on performance and results.
That's the nature of his job.
I read this on another forum, I thought this poster provided a very good assessment.
This is not my post but somebody elses (excuse the typos, I copied and pasted verbatim):
"I thought watching the game was frustrating. Geez reading alot of dribble on here.
Any chance we can have a proper disection of the game instead of we r no good this blokes a dud blah blah blah. Surely we r better than that.
1st qtr 7 turnovers which is elite.
2nd qtr 13 of which the majority were unforced..not a direct result of Hawthorn pressure.
2nh half 41...world record pace.
Heres a fact not an opinion. We have less turnovers when we score heavily..logical. Again as in first qtr.
Ive been on here so often talking about our mfield.
This is still our biggest issue. When the pace is on in the game there is less squeezing of space and when we go quick we often get through and score.
Its not coincidence we r playing on quick ..its what Teague wants. All our issue happen when the game slows and the opp squeeze space. We just carnt get through and we turnover the ball horribly consistently trying to penetrate. Teague doesnt want our backs kicking from a stationay position..holding the ball thinking thinking thinking. He knows whats gunna happen we all do. If the reason he has samo playing there..If u recall at half time v port he gave an interview where he said he told them that if they carnt go quick he wants to go long very long down the line. But his preference is to go quick.
This is why i say our mfield is the issue. We just dont have enough depth of exp or quality yet to keep the pace on long enough in games. This has gotten better but still needs to go up a couple more notches. Its a smart game plan esp with the talls we have..give em more chances to go 1 on 1 but also limits the thinking guys have to do eith the footy..the more u think more chance u have of turning it over.
Our whole season have reflected this...we have scored in chunks very quicly and conceded in chunks very quickly against all levels of teams. So Teagues challenge for the forseeable future is to get OUR style for long enough to win games until this depth and exp grows. Fisher Dow Philp Kemp LOB stocker are still mids we have who could help this.
So maybe in the short term we could
Rotate more guys through the mfield for longer like martin cunners gibbo eddy
Playing de koning who is a genuine ruck and can rest pitt a bit more instead of more
Maybe doc or willo for a spell
Maybe rotating guys from game to game to keep them fresher
Maybe giving cripps the dusty role fulltime
This all could happen and maybe u guys have a few others..but i think teaguey is reluctant to do this too much cause hes trying to build continuity with game plan and blokes playing certain roles
So unfortunatley we may see these fluctuations in games continue fir a while yet unless he can come up with something in the gameplan which allows us to at the very least get inside 50s because as i said at the start when ball is in hand of alot of our blokes and they had to think their way through the kick we all know whats coming.
Just all think Richmond. As bout as average a team to win a flag based on pure talent as there has been in the last 40 yrs. 4 yrs ago they had blokes who couldnt hit the side of the barn from 5 m. Going nowhere with a gamellan which required precise kicking. Gone to the simllest gamepkan u can have. Havent looked back
And havent looked back cause they can llay it for longer than their opp can play theirs. Thats teagues challenge in the short term..he need to get a little creative"
Likewise, I went for a look around in other forums and there were a number of well thought out contributions like this one. Thanks for posting it GTC.
There was another one, long read, also well thought out that explained in detail how when opposition sides change gears - we're stuffed, and, like this contribution, the responsibility for our Jekyll and Hyde performances within games lies with our mids and leaders. Not enough training on what to do when opposition sides slow our game (and we shyte ourselves - only because we don't know what to do, not because we're not capable (midfield coaches, step forward please)). Other contributions also identified the problem with our leadership / midfield (again, mid-field coaches, step forward please!).
Also identified was the curious decision to not play recognised mids through the midfield more often... ie Gibbons, Cuningham and so on.
And the lack of boldness at the selection table and during games - is far too conservative.
Teague has this year and another IMO, it usually depends on what coaches are available as well....
You can spin how we played and make excuses all you like vs Hawthorn but we are their bunny in cricket terms
and they feel they can take us no matter what we put on the scoreboard, bit like the old Windies teams of the eighties..no matter what we make we will bowl you out for less.
Is it 21 from the last 24 games for the Hawks?...
So maybe you just have to concede there are some teams that are your bogey team who will always do well against you no matter what.Bulldogs were that team when I was young, we had great teams but the Dogs would always trouble us especially at Whitten oval....
re: The Hawks midfield....Ceglar/McEvoy, Mitchell, OMeara, Shiels,Worpel, Smith with Burgoyne and Wingard having the odd run through there too....not shabby at all IMO. I wouldnt be backing Gibbons, Cuningham, Kennedy to have much impact vs that group.
Not much else at the Hawks but the midfield is where the quality is and where we lost the game IMO.
.....Firstly, he is a newbie with new tricks, opposition coaches are yet to see or learn them, it takes a few games before they are prepared for coaching against Teague so in the short term he has an advantage in this area. The Dawks are probably his worst case, as BB has all the inside guff so Teague's advantage is minimised!
I'm not sure whether others have mentioned it but, rate him or not, Bolton's knowledge of coach and players would have been an advantage.
I'm not sure whether others have mentioned it but, rate him or not, Bolton's knowledge of coach and players would have been an advantage.
Don't want to sound like FIGJAM but I think I mentioned it in the pre game.
Bolton's input to Hawthorn was very important in my humble opinion.
Fair dinkum we started well!
Even Moore looked good in that first quarter.
Newnes was very good in the 1st quarter.
Their first goal was bad: we let Smith get away with shepherding on the mark.
Not picking up our men. they are running too freely.
Fair dunkum they whinge!
Not holding our marks. None of the defenders.
We just didn't get the ball after quarter time. Most of our players had maybe 2/3 of their possessions in the first quarter.
Fair dinkum we started well!
Even Moore looked good in that first quarter.
Newnes was very good in the 1st quarter.
Their first goal was bad: we let Smith get away with shepherding on the mark.
Not picking up our men. they are running too freely.
Fair dunkum they whinge!
Not holding our marks. None of the defenders.
We just didn't get the ball after quarter time. Most of our players had maybe 2/3 of their possessions in the first quarter.
We literally all just stopped after that 5th goal. When we are on, its team footy, everyone contributes whether its a goal, a behind, a smother, a tackle, a knock on to advantage. After that 5th goal to the end of the games, many of our blokes either didnt touch the footy or did SFA.
Makes you wonder how much Bolton divulged to us about Hawthorn
Teague has this year and another IMO, it usually depends on what coaches are available as well....
You can spin how we played and make excuses all you like vs Hawthorn but we are their bunny in cricket terms
and they feel they can take us no matter what we put on the scoreboard, bit like the old Windies teams of the eighties..no matter what we make we will bowl you out for less.
Is it 21 from the last 24 games for the Hawks?...
So maybe you just have to concede there are some teams that are your bogey team who will always do well against you no matter what.Bulldogs were that team when I was young, we had great teams but the Dogs would always trouble us especially at Whitten oval....
re: The Hawks midfield....Ceglar/McEvoy, Mitchell, OMeara, Shiels,Worpel, Smith with Burgoyne and Wingard having the odd run through there too....not shabby at all IMO. I wouldnt be backing Gibbons, Cuningham, Kennedy to have much impact vs that group.
Not much else at the Hawks but the midfield is where the quality is and where we lost the game IMO.
We may just simply be over-analysing what was simply a bad game. They all have them. Learn from it but give it a couple of weeks to see as it might've just been a $hit night. We rolled Geelong at Geelong a week after losing to Melbourne. Changes every week, even more so the way this year is. We're up and down but certainly improved alot.
Makes you wonder how much Bolton divulged to us about Hawthorn
BB was heart and soul into our cause when he worked for us, I am sure he would have used every bit of intel he had on them and some. Clarko said once he and BB talked often but when there was a game between the clubs, for the week leading up and the week after, there was no communication. It was a gentlemens agreement
We literally all just stopped after that 5th goal. When we are on, its team footy, everyone contributes whether its a goal, a behind, a smother, a tackle, a knock on to advantage. After that 5th goal to the end of the games, many of our blokes either didn't touch the footy or did SFA.
Indeed. We stopped running, we didn't take any risks and we moved the ball ... well, we didn't get the ball to move it.
BB was heart and soul into our cause when he worked for us, I am sure he would have used every bit of intel he had on them and some. Clarko said once he and BB talked often but when there was a game between the clubs, for the week leading up and the week after, there was no communication. It was a gentlemens agreement
It wasn't a "go" at Bolton by the way, otherwise why the head start we got? Just floating the idea as not too many coaches over the journey switch back to the club they once coached
Bolton's input to Hawthorn was very important in my humble opinion.
BB knows a bit about our loses..
It wasn't a "go" at Bolton by the way, otherwise why the head start we got? Just floating the idea as not too many coaches over the journey switch back to the club they once coached
Didnt Leppa go from Assistant at Rich to Head Coach Brisbane back to to Assistant at Rich?