After the Fremantle game it got me thinking about are regular inability to win close games.
My Carlton mate just provided me with the statistics:
Carlton have lose 32 matches by 18 points or less since 2008.
That is 1 in 5 games since 2008
This says to me that our list has no poise under pressure and/or skills to finish off games.
So what would you propose as a remedy then ??
So what would you propose as a remedy then ??
1. New Recruitment Team - including dedicated list manager, national development network and head recruiter - goodbye to current recruiter
2. More money from the Board/Sponsors into the Development league and Reserves. Full Carlton reserves
3. More Coaches at Development and Reserves
4. Clear the list methodically with the hard calls
The rest will look after itself...
We have won 20 games by 18 or less in the same time frame so it's not like we lose all the close ones but a reversal of those figures would have improved our results the last few years.
Geelong always seem to win the close ones.
We have won 20 games by 18 or less in the same time frame so it's not like we lose all the close ones but a reversal of those figures would have improved our results the last few years.
Geelong always seem to win the close ones.
Thanks for that - I didn't get time for that analysis
Therefore, since 2008:
We win 38% of the close games
We lose 62% of the close games
We have won 20 games by 18 or less in the same time frame so it's not like we lose all the close ones but a reversal of those figures would have improved our results the last few years.
Geelong always seem to win the close ones.
Thanks for that - I didn't get time for that analysis
Therefore, since 2008:
We win 38% of the close games
We lose 62% of the close games
So we win about 2 out of 5 close games - about right for a middle of the road team?
So what would you propose as a remedy then ??
1. New Recruitment Team - including dedicated list manager, national development network and head recruiter - goodbye to current recruiter
2. More money from the Board/Sponsors into the Development league and Reserves. Full Carlton reserves
3. More Coaches at Development and Reserves
4. Clear the list methodically with the hard calls
The rest will look after itself...
x2.... been saying similar for years but the club refuses to admit the recruiting and development are an issue.....
I think the more important figure is the long term trends.
2008 and 2011 our winning margins increased and the losing margins decreased (improvement).
2012 our winning margin was stable but our losing margin increased (backwards).
2013 our winning margin dropped and the losing margin dropped (stalled).
2014 our winning margin remains stable but our losing margin has risen (backwards).
So what would you propose as a remedy then ??
1. New Recruitment Team - including dedicated list manager, national development network and head recruiter - goodbye to current recruiter
2. More money from the Board/Sponsors into the Development league and Reserves. Full Carlton reserves
3. More Coaches at Development and Reserves
4. Clear the list methodically with the hard calls
The rest will look after itself...
So everything we have been banging on about ad-nauseum for years !!
Thanks Moz.
So what would you propose as a remedy then ??
1. New Recruitment Team - including dedicated list manager, national development network and head recruiter - goodbye to current recruiter
2. More money from the Board/Sponsors into the Development league and Reserves. Full Carlton reserves
3. More Coaches at Development and Reserves
4. Clear the list methodically with the hard calls
The rest will look after itself...
x2.... been saying similar for years but the club refuses to admit the recruiting and development are an issue.....
Are you sure? That's all I've heard Loguidice say since he was appointed.
So what would you propose as a remedy then ??
1. New Recruitment Team - including dedicated list manager, national development network and head recruiter - goodbye to current recruiter
2. More money from the Board/Sponsors into the Development league and Reserves. Full Carlton reserves
3. More Coaches at Development and Reserves
4. Clear the list methodically with the hard calls
The rest will look after itself...
So everything we have been banging on about ad-nauseum for years !!
Thanks Moz.
Yep. In short, our list is not good enough because of poor recruiting and development. Over to you Mr LoGiudice and Mr Trigg.
You win the close ones when your leaders/champs step up........Selwood got Geelong over the line when we lost, Fyfe did it to us last game vs Freo.
You often see Hodge..Lewis of late do it for Hawthorn.......Juddy got us over the line vs the Tigers in last years final IMO.
If you could question two of the greats of the game in Pavlich and Reiwoldt...you would say they dont have that in their game and thats why their clubs even at the peak of their powers cant win the big one....
The cream rises to the top......we dont have enough cream especially when Judd doesnt play
we keep losing close games because we are dumb team and also i think not fit enough, game plan of long kicks has to go.
In the original mosquito fleet days that great team always found ways to win including the close ones and close grand finals...79 81 82
Yep...geelong relish the close games...self belief skils close knit team and poise.....
To be honest, I don't think we are that far away. Yes, we do need more poise and skill, but that will come. Our biggest issue is the lack of a go to forward. If we had one, especially if that guys could kick goals (something many of our players find difficult), WE would be the ones doing the clutch things and coming home victorious.
Yes, we do have our issues, and getting them sorted on and off the field is a must. But we have been so close so often that it won't take a lot to start winning a few close ones. Once we get the confidence by beating a few of these teams in close games, we will gain confidence and start doing it more often. It is very much a self belief thing.
To be honest, I don't think we are that far away. Yes, we do need more poise and skill, but that will come. Our biggest issue is the lack of a go to forward. If we had one, especially if that guys could kick goals (something many of our players find difficult), WE would be the ones doing the clutch things and coming home victorious.
Yes, we do have our issues, and getting them sorted on and off the field is a must. But we have been so close so often that it won't take a lot to start winning a few close ones. Once we get the confidence by beating a few of these teams in close games, we will gain confidence and start doing it more often. It is very much a self belief thing.
Totally disagree.
This is the form of comments as expected from the Club
We are "nearly there" , we "may" improve , we "äre unlucky", we need "a bit of luck".
Facts are we are not there and we are 14th.
Fair enough. Feel free to disagree. The next time I am perfect will be the first.
However, I do acknowledge that we DO have problems, problems that need serious solutions. We have been critical of the board, the coaches, the recruiters and the development staff (not to mention the players), and with some reason. However, we HAVE been making changes. I would like to see how these changes go before I go and suggest we recreate the wheel. Again.
Yes, we DO have issues winning close ones, but more than anything else the issues are in the heads of the players and coaches. All we need to do is to start getting over the line and the self belief will come back. In our heyday, it was the self belief, the willing not to lose that managed t get us over the line. Having a few decent players helped.
The players will come, even if it takes a while and we go through more changes on and off the field. Bit no matter how good the players, we need to instil the BELIEF, the DESIRE, the self confidence and belief in each other that Geelong and Hawthorn have at the moment. Then we will win the close ones.
What made Stephen Silvagni a great player, not just a good one, wasn't his strength, his speed or his leap: it was his self belief and his desire to WIN. That was what he pulled out in 1995 and he kept some of the games' greatest players almost kickless as a result. There was just NO WAY he was going to beaten, not by Carey, not by Ablett, not by anyone.
When our guys believe that about themselves, we will more than pretenders, ore than contenders, we will be back where we belong.
Interesting enough Sam Rowe whilst not in the same level is one of few key defenders we have had since SOS to display that mentality of competitive instinct, where losing a contest hurts him.
It's quite refreshing to see, and Simon White seems to have it too.
Maybe we don't win because we are too tired from being out late! ::)
Interesting enough Sam Rowe whilst not in the same level is one of few key defenders we have had since SOS to display that mentality of competitive instinct, where losing a contest hurts him.
It's quite refreshing to see, and Simon White seems to have it too.
Setanta also had it to an extent. This is how damaged our culture has become, because once pulling on the Guernsey was all the motivation a player needed. The Gen Y selfish attitude combined with a series of events which led to a prolonged lack of success at Carlton has savagely compromised our integrity. We need a flag to return the club to it's iconic status asap. Mick can do this. #Believe.
Interesting enough Sam Rowe whilst not in the same level is one of few key defenders we have had since SOS to display that mentality of competitive instinct, where losing a contest hurts him.
It's quite refreshing to see, and Simon White seems to have it too.
Bret Thornton was criticised for this throughout the second half of his career.
Interesting enough Sam Rowe whilst not in the same level is one of few key defenders we have had since SOS to display that mentality of competitive instinct, where losing a contest hurts him.
It's quite refreshing to see, and Simon White seems to have it too.
Bret Thornton was criticised for this throughout the second half of his career.
I thought Thornton was criticized for blaming others after he had either lost a contest or been caught out of position.
Here are a couple of quotes from Chris Judd in an interview put up on the CFC website
Q:(Tony DeBolfo) And do you see real hope in terms of where this team is heading?
A: (Chris Judd) Yes – and these are the sort of things you have to weigh up. The team is becoming more competitive across the whole group, and I think that desire to win is more evenly spread across the whole 22 players who enter the field each week – and that probably hasn't been a real strong suit of this club in my time here.
Q: You’re talking about people in survival mode.
A: Yeah. When your club has had poor results for a long time players tend to focus more on surviving the experience rather than achieving anything. When I first got here seven years ago a large number of players were probably more focused on just getting a contract or, if they were good players on getting good contracts than they were focused on how we were going to achieve anything as a group because that’s just what happens in organisations that are under performing – and that’s not unique to this club. That would happen across the board in companies across the world and poor performing sports clubs alike. But that has gradually changed in my time here which is much for the better, to the point that you’re really confident with all the 22 guys who take to the field that they really want to win for the club on the day. And that level of confidence is the highest it’s been in my time here, and that’s really encouraging and something worth thinking about.
It sheds a bit of light on where we are coming from, and that we have and are moving on from there.
The journey back to the top has started, let's not derail or detour the trip through impatience.
@Amers
Very interesting insights there A. Shows why the journey has been so hard, i.e. we started from a very poor place where everyone was basically looking after #1.
I guess that teamwork and playing for the team has to be the highest priority set for each player and that their performances will all be fairly measured on how well they do that. This is a major factor in how the Hawks, Swans and Cats have become so successful.
We have to establish an environment where each role is defined, each player has a role and clearly understands that role and is given clear expectations as to what is required of him to successfully fill that role. I've heard Leigh Mathews talk about this a number of times.
Stop the Board divisions and factions will be the key..thats the first thing maguire did at collingwood.....
Stop the Board divisions and factions will be the key..thats the first thing maguire did at collingwood.....
Some close to that club will claim McGuire was the creator of what he cured! ;)
Stop the Board divisions and factions will be the key..thats the first thing maguire did at collingwood.....
Some close to that club will claim McGuire was the creator of what he cured! ;)
This is serious LP...our club is at a tipping point
Maguire won a premiership sticks didnt....
This is serious LP...our club is at a tipping point
Maguire won a premiership sticks didnt....
So may Little, but that won't make it right! ;)
We don't stoop to doing whatever it takes.
Read Judd discussion of fulfillment and you can clearly see there is another way!
Close games are won when the class shines. Class has been a rare commodity in our side for so long.
Interesting enough Sam Rowe whilst not in the same level is one of few key defenders we have had since SOS to display that mentality of competitive instinct, where losing a contest hurts him.
It's quite refreshing to see, and Simon White seems to have it too.
Bret Thornton was criticised for this throughout the second half of his career.
I thought Thornton was criticized for blaming others after he had either lost a contest or been caught out of position.
Nup, htat was part of it, but his general demeanour was being criticised for that very reason.
After the Fremantle game it got me thinking about are regular inability to win close games.
My Carlton mate just provided me with the statistics:
Carlton have lose 32 matches by 18 points or less since 2008.
That is 1 in 5 games since 2008
This says to me that our list has no poise under pressure and/or skills to finish off games.
I have decided to amend this thread:
Carlton has lost 33 matches by 18 points or less since 2008
have a fit side with a good game plan and hopefully no more close games.The most important is a bit of luck.
...or it suggests that our mob try their guts out all the way to the end (typically pulling back a few goals late to reduce the margin) but ultimately lack class and poise.
...or it suggests that our mob try their guts out all the way to the end (typically pulling back a few goals late to reduce the margin) but ultimately lack class and poise.
Agree. I think also after years of being hammered, missing out on finals etc, the boys started having a few wins here and there, and started a slow climb up the ladder. Pretty soon we were being praised for having "honorable losses", and that has become the de facto standard. "We're getting praised because we got close to beating a top 4 team, therefore we must be doing ok." IMO, I think remnants of this mentality still linger.
@Paul
They could still lack that final bit of concentration, and as the Prof says, poise to get us over the line and as a result make critical errors. MM thinks this is the case, from his comments.
If we can get those out of the way we could be a LOT more competitive, plus a couple more better quality players who can drag a team over the line and build belief going forward.
Carlton have lose 32 matches by 18 points or less since 2008.
How many have they won by 18 points or less?
@Paul
They could still lack that final bit of concentration, and as the Prof says, poise to get us over the line and as a result make critical errors. MM thinks this is the case, from his comments.
If we can get those out of the way we could be a LOT more competitive, plus a couple more better quality players who can drag a team over the line and build belief going forward.
Fair enough cookie. I agree with Prof btw.
I got the impression from Mick's comments a few weeks ago, that he was hinting at a mindset issue (the comments about constantly losing close games). His constant referencing of Selwood, and his belief that Selwood wills himself to the right position and wills himself and his team to win, reinforces this idea for me. But who knows ?
@Paul
You could well be right there too Paul. It's probably not attributable to one specific thing. Mick though talks a lot about our unnecessary errors, and they hopefully will reduce as the team gets closer.
Going back to the old team theory of Forming, Storming, Norming and Performing I'd venture to guess we are now through Forming and Storming and have entered the Norming stage. We should reduce our errors and start to win more of those close ones next year hopefully (if the theory is right!).
@Paul
You could well be right there too Paul. It's probably not attributable to one specific thing. Mick though talks a lot about our unnecessary errors, and they hopefully will reduce as the team gets closer.
Going back to the old team theory of Forming, Storming, Norming and Performing I'd venture to guess we are now through Forming and Storming and have entered the Norming stage. We should reduce our errors and start to win more of those close ones next year hopefully (if the theory is right!).
Yep - I expect / hope that will be the case.
Carlton have lose 32 matches by 18 points or less since 2008.
How many have they won by 18 points or less?
That's a good question.
To me the whole question is a stupid one anyway.
It's not like we've got an illness, it's just something you work on.
It was not so long ago we were lamenting our kicking for goal, hardly gets a mention now. It's just something you work on.
To me the whole question is a stupid one anyway.
It's not like we've got an illness, it's just something you work on.It was not so long ago we were lamenting our kicking for goal, hardly gets a mention now. It's just something you work on.
Exactly. Unless you've spent your time cut off from civilisation in Alaska for the past 6 years, you would know that we've struggled to be competitive for four quarters in too many games and that has ultimately shown in our win/loss record. Our recent efforts including the loss to the handbaggers do seem to indicate that we have been working hard to address that and as a result there is a lot more positivity for both the playing group and the supporters. Add to this the signatures of Judd, Gibbs and Menzel (three guns that could have easily moved on) and I believe we have significantly turned the corner. Bring on 2015!!
Carlton have lose 32 matches by 18 points or less since 2008.
How many have they won by 18 points or less?
That's a good question.
To me the whole question is a stupid one anyway.
It's not like we've got an illness, it's just something you work on.
It was not so long ago we were lamenting our kicking for goal, hardly gets a mention now. It's just something you work on.
We have won 20 games by 18 or less in the same time frame so it's not like we lose all the close ones but a reversal of those figures would have improved our results the last few years.
Geelong always seem to win the close ones.
Thanks for that - I didn't get time for that analysis
Therefore, since 2008:
We win 38% of the close games
We lose 62% of the close games
See above
2008.
You may as well be talking about 1908.
It's not rocket science. As teams get better they win more, including close ones. Geelong's record against the Hawks is one to ponder because it was 12 straight or some such thing.
But the Hawks lost quite a few close finals after 2008 and they came to one conclusion, fitness.
It's just part of growing up.
2008.
You may as well be talking about 1908.
It's not rocket science. As teams get better they win more, including close ones. Geelong's record against the Hawks is one to ponder because it was 12 straight or some such thing.
But the Hawks lost quite a few close finals after 2008 and they came to one conclusion, fitness.
It's just part of growing up.
Exactly, "Losing Close Ones" is an outcome and there are causes for it. MM and the boys have to isolate and address the causes in order to fix the problem.
I've often watched us make sone very rookie mistakes during games and thinking that you can't stuff up like that and win games of football.
I wonder if Mick is of the same opinion.
With momentum being important every error works to kill your team's momentum and hands it to your opposition.
You may find these numbers are not unusual through the competition.
Our performance across the game has gotten better. I can't really recall 6 goal runs against us for a while
That's a good point... how many games have we lost in the recent past where a side has gotten on a roll and blown us away in about 15 minutes... the swans this year was one, can't think of too many more.
They (MM?) have clearly arrested this side of things.
One of the things I reckon they have arrested is the leaking of goals in junk time of qtrs 1, 2 and 3. This used to crap me to tears.
Once we start winning a few of these close ones, we'll get better at doing it.
However:
[1] Our decision making under pressure and skills need the most work. Docherty especially often kicks the ball on the full near the end of games, something he doesn't do so much earlier. Nor is he alone. Wood's kick from defence, had it been bouncier or considerably longer, would have been a winner. As it was, it was almost the worst possible option.
[2] Picking the right option will get better, but needs to be addressed. Sheehan, for example, couldn't quite kick the ball the way Sam Rowe needed it with about 1 minute to spare. It might have been a good option, but it wasn't optimum: Rowe was 1 against 3. Sheehan will learn.
[3] Confidence: Geelong believe they will win close ones. It is our job to get to the point where WE believe. Then we will give those felines a good spaying.
[4] Fitness: quite a number of our guys don't quite play out the game. Tom Bell is one noticeable case, especially as one of his strengths is his running. Judd is another, with no real surprise considering his injuries. A lot of our guys are in the same boat. If we have that extra bit of fitness, we can handle things that bit better and we only need to be a little bit better.
[5] A more even contribution: we often have a number of guys who don't have much of the ball. If they can lift just a few percent, then we win contests that could be the difference.
I have never been Mick's biggest fan but the team is progressing nicely I will admit. It also seems like a more genuine improvement rather than a quick few game win streak and then down again.
The wins would have been good but I think the fact we are prepared to fight and battle right to the end is what is most pleasing and this was one of the main issues previously. I think the wins will come but having the right mentality week in week out at this stage is most important.
The players also seem to now have had a light bulb moment and have realised what it takes to be a good team, a sign of better leadership and responsibility taken by all.
Even heard a couple of the boys mention how next season has already started as Mick has told them and that you cant expect to just turn off and rock up next year hoping everyone is a better player and we are a better team. This I think has been one of the cultural and mental shifts Mick was brought in for and seems we are getting somewhere now.
^^ The fact that it has taken this long to shake the apathy out of them speaks for why we really need to think hard about signing Mick up for a +1 in order to release the pressure and ensure the club stays "united".
It could be very easy for them to switch back into self preservation mode next season, and we should look to prevent the pressure cooker from blowing up in our faces.
The wins would have been good but I think the fact we are prepared to fight and battle right to the end is what is most pleasing and this was one of the main issues previously. I think the wins will come but having the right mentality week in week out at this stage is most important.
That's it for me too. We just need to do this for two more rounds and I believe we are building some serious momentum going into 2015, but we can't let it slip now.
@Thry
I totally understand where you're coming from but I don't think Mick is under any pressure at all ATM, side is progressing well, Judd has backed him in, the media (and blokes like me) have shut up. I still say we at least wait until the first 8 rounds of next year just to be sure, we can't afford to do another Pagan.
I'd be disappointed if we even began negotiating before the start of next season. I think the chances of him being poached are extremely low and of we sign him and we drop the first 4 again it would be a disaster.
I'm happy we've stopped the slide but it would be silly to forget the past, it was 6 weeks ago we were a junk list and in reality what we're seeing now is probably the absolute worst we were expecting out of the team when Mick was signed up. Expectations have been put so low that just not heading south is a feat?
^^ The fact that it has taken this long to shake the apathy out of them speaks for why we really need to think hard about signing Mick up for a +1 in order to release the pressure and ensure the club stays "united".
It could be very easy for them to switch back into self preservation mode next season, and we should look to prevent the pressure cooker from blowing up in our faces.
I'm with you there Thryleon, I would still like to see some results next year before commiting any further with Mick.
I think Thry is for giving him an extension now JCVD. :P
Im actually on the fence about it.
Hence why I stated think hard about it.
This group has proven that they will play dead if it suits an agenda of getting rid of a coach. By extending Malthouse we remove that possibility and ensure the team stays focussed on the job at hand.
Malthouse may or may not be the answer. Judd's return to the team has had as much an influence in our turning fortunes, along with the elevation of Wood in place of Warnock. For that side of things you would need to be closer to the club to really know whether or not we are on the right track, and I would hope that the methodology applied, and the direction should be enough to solidify whether or not the extension happens now or next season regardless of the wins and losses. Sport is fickle. Some of our close ones have proven that results are not the end all and be all, but rather the process. Once you have the process right, the results should follow in time. Some will ask how long, but thats not the right question. Its loaded from the wrong perspective. The answer is, as long as it takes. You dont achieve something solely focussing on the result, and usually the size of the task generally dictates your time frame.
I wouldnt be surprised with an extension happening now. Particularly if the playing group needs it, and in fact, I would hope it was +1 currently on reduced dollars. That way it takes the pressure out of it, and leaves them all focussing on the task at hand.
Players know coaching contracts mean nothing past the 2nd year though Thry.
Players know coaching contracts mean nothing past the 2nd year though Thry.
Contracts guarantee money not tenure!