Not good enough. Our worst effort for the year. Careers will end because of this.
Won't be MM's
Lets just look at the positives.........Ummmmm......... Wait, I'll be back.
Thank God that one is over. It will go down as our worst effort of the year by a long way. We did nothing in any quarter and played poorly in all aspects. I find it difficult to think of any positives from this. Malthouse will not be happy and I don't blame him.
Lets just look at the positives.........Ummmmm......... Wait, I'll be back.
Here's some
++++++++.
I'm not MM convertee as yet but what could he do?
Don't understand why Army wasn't in but aside from that we have nothing to play for they had everything to play for at a home game with home umpiring -- port are In for a rude shock when they play away from home, what they get paid on their home ground they won't get paid away.
We gave up very early, I clearly saw a number of players including Yaz, Gibbs, Waite pull out of contests - why do a year when you can cruise thru to a preseason
Horrible we have to play the drug cheats next week, at least I hope the CFC make it a lot harder for them come Ill-gotten finals time
Lets just look at the positives.........Ummmmm......... Wait, I'll be back.
Here's some
++++++++.
That is 8 more than I currently have. ;D
Gee, just when I was starting to get all giddy again with my Blues..............thanks for nothing.
Was fairly confident of another "honorable loss" tonight. Didnt think we'd win but wasnt expecting that.
Just once during the week I let a little sneaky thought get in .........................................." wow, I hope all this good press we've been getting during the week for all these close losses doesnt inflate our ego's" but i quickely snapped out of it believing we'd turned the corner......................YEP !
Well done Port. I Hate your guts but envy the way you play footy. Your supporters must be stoked to watch you play like that week in week out...even when you lose.
I wish I could say the same about my pitiful excuse for a football team.
I can think of 2: Jamison and Rowe in defence. They played as well as they could in the circumstances. Gibbs worked hard, Judd wasn't too bad and Levi took some marks. So many had no influence at all.
I really don't think Port are that good, but they smashed us as nobody but Sydney has managed to this year.
I can think of 2: Jamison and Rowe in defence. They played as well as they could in the circumstances. Gibbs worked hard, Judd wasn't too bad and Levi took some marks. So many had no influence at all.
I really don't think Port are that good, but they smashed us as nobody but Sydney has managed to this year.
Add Wood too. 16 disposals 8 marks and ran forward to give an option.
Midfield flogged, no clear winners in any position, no forwards... yep, 100 point loss seems pretty much a fair result. Chuck in some rubbish umpiring and there were zero positives from tonight. Oh, and they are fast, fit and a precision kicking side... three traits we do not have and need to emulate sooner rather than later.
I realise that we fielded a weak side but you have to have a freakin' go. A few have clearly put the cue in the case and that craps me to tears. None of the kids look ready and Graham especially looks small, scruffy and underwhelming at this level.
I thought blokes like Rowe, Gibbs and Curnow tried but blokes like Casboult, Yarran and Menzel can't even run and are just making up numbers. Touhy, Docherty, Sheahan and Simmo stank tonight - so often this year our smaller defenders have been deadest awful. Gees the other hackers such as Wood, Carazzo, White and Bell etc were horribly shown up - too many mistakes, slow, poor disposal and low "hurt factor".
I shudder to think what the cheats will do to us next week, it will be carnage.
I can think of 2: Jamison and Rowe in defence. They played as well as they could in the circumstances. Gibbs worked hard, Judd wasn't too bad and Levi took some marks. So many had no influence at all.
I really don't think Port are that good, but they smashed us as nobody but Sydney has managed to this year.
In common with Sydney Port has a tough, uncompromising, skilful and hard running midfield. We just can't handle that.
I can think of 2: Jamison and Rowe in defence. They played as well as they could in the circumstances. Gibbs worked hard, Judd wasn't too bad and Levi took some marks. So many had no influence at all.
I really don't think Port are that good, but they smashed us as nobody but Sydney has managed to this year.
Lot of guys simply had nothing left tonight.
I now remember what it was I disliked about Port. What a mob of ****s.
Still reckon they've got some serious front runners. They are now the team I don't want to win it.
Come on guys, we are only about 18 players short of a great squad. Surely we can fix that in one drafting season, and a few free agents pick ups ???
The fact MM had to play Lucas (a player by all reports he doesn't respect or rate) shows just how bare the cupboard was.
People in the media were quick to excuse the Filth last week with all their injuries...
but consider who we had missing
Kreuzer, Thomas, Murphy, Henderson, McLean, Robinson, Walker.
We had four players playing in Holman, Johnson, Sheehan and Graham (all starting and not sub) who combine for a total of what 15-20 games.
Not much MM can do...
When you have a fitness advantage it really shows up at this level. So often they could just burn us off and get space to deliver the ball unimpeded to an open forward line. We MUST get fitter or we can't compete.
Mick needs to put the acid on this group this preseason... get serious or F off.
When you have a fitness advantage it really shows up at this level. So often they could just burn us off and get space to deliver the ball unimpeded to an open forward line. We MUST get fitter or we can't compete.
Mick needs to put the acid on this group this preseason... get serious or F off.
True by all measures.
I can think of 2: Jamison and Rowe in defence. They played as well as they could in the circumstances. Gibbs worked hard, Judd wasn't too bad and Levi took some marks. So many had no influence at all.
I really don't think Port are that good, but they smashed us as nobody but Sydney has managed to this year.
Add Wood too. 16 disposals 8 marks and ran forward to give an option.
Wood showed a lot. He tried his guts out and got the ball. But he was pounded in the ruck work. Lobbe I have never rated until this year, but he started the rot. Our lack of midfield pressure set the rot in place.
Wood did enough to make sure he is on our list in 2015, but we REALLY need a top ruckman. And we need to do our homework on guys like Lobbe, so they don't damage us again.
Rowe and Casboult should be taken to task over 2 amateur mistakes.......... They are not "good " kicks , let alone decent kicks of the footy so dont even bother to try and kick the footy off 1 step, or when walking backwards for that matter.
There were plenty more disgraceful efforts from our players tonight and some probably much worse but these 2, of all people, need to stick to the basics !
BTW, I bet Steven Trigg is rapped about sending out his letter to the members this week, asking for what the club could do better !!
I can think of 2: Jamison and Rowe in defence. They played as well as they could in the circumstances. Gibbs worked hard, Judd wasn't too bad and Levi took some marks. So many had no influence at all.
I really don't think Port are that good, but they smashed us as nobody but Sydney has managed to this year.
Lot of guys simply had nothing left tonight.
I now remember what it was I disliked about Port. What a mob of ****s.
Still reckon they've got some serious front runners. They are now the team I don't want to win it.
Loved Ratts and still feel he Had much to give us but this port side feels like us that good year under him - challenge them properly defensively and they will crumble
Lucas stamped his exit papers tonight good and proper. Pea heart once again.
Mick says he judges kids by how they perform of the big stage.
well the kids better get used to 2nds footy for a while yet going by their performances tonight. All looked out of their depth for the most part.
We were leading the Drug Cheats into a false sense of security. Just when they think they don't have to take us seriously we'll revert to form of previous weeks...lol!
Lololol at Mark Stevens in the press conference what an embarrassment to Ch 7 along with Harley he is
Interesting presser by Mick. Basically blokes are stuffed and we are always against sides up for top 4 so basically.. we are basically fighting quality sides with a lot on the line. Blamed our poor skill level and turnovers for tonight.
Stevens tried to bait Mick about Murphy getting KO'd and Mick basically did his crap at the questioning and blamed the poor kick for the incident.
Wants us to develop more depth for next year.
Doesn't know how we will field a team next week.
Glad I didnt see this one.
Did see the presser and thought Mick did pretty well in it. Has come a long way from where he was in the middle of the year IMO.
Pathetic in term of effort and intensity....
Simpson......ordinary, couldnt get near it and has been put out of business by the better teams who are manning him up
Jamison....reasonable overall on Schultz but it could have looked ugly if the ex Tiger had kicked straight.
Docherty...unsighted and lacks physical presence...need some strong teammates around him.
Touhy...woeful....
Sheehan..hardly sighted...learning curve game.
Rowe...battled on and tried to hold the leaking defense together but was over run in the end and ended up with a pass getting picked off for an easy goal
but you cant deny his effort and application and was one of our best.
Yarran....not interested, maybe injured coming into the game but worked out that tonight was going to be a lot of ar$e chasing and
decided that he wasnt going to exert himself too much...
White....not great, one solo goal but had no impact and was led to the ball most times...
Carrazzo....moved around to different players trying to stop Ports mids but ended up swamped by their run and carry..
Judd...started well but Ports pace and constant running was a bit much for the old champ and he couldnt keep up with the younger legs.
Murphy....didnt do much when he was on but tried to lead by being brave but ended up concussed.
Gibbs....battled on, no real effect on the game but was our best mid and at least used the ball in a reasonable manner..
Bell...crape....didnt get much of the footy and when he did just butchered every kick......didnt like Ports pace much either and needed to worl harder but didnt.
Levi..got smashed in the ruck and his goal kicking was off, did a little bit round the ground but the Port talls ran him ragged and his field kicking lets him down too.
Graham...got a few kicks but was always under pressure, lacks a yard and Port are a team who will expose that as they are very quick.
Johnson....finding his way, lays a good tackle for a young bloke but lacks composure and has a long way to go....50/50 on his future.
Menzel....injured from last week and didnt do much.
Holman...bad night to debut and started down back on Ports mid sized forwards and it was a nigtmare job...he is an honest player who has courage but we wont be judging him on tonights game...like Graham lacks a yard of pace but Port do make you look slow.
Waite...not much he could do tonight with limited opportunities and gets a pass.
Lucas...horror game to be subbed into but didnt show much and you woudle expect him to be gone at seaosn end...
Curnow...tried but lacks class and skill.....not sure he is senior 22 material in a really good team...handy backup player and is ok in your bottom 5-8 players but we need a better attacking tagger who can use the footy and hurt teams..
Wood....probably was the one player along with Jamison who could say they broke even with their man(Lobbe) but has his brain dead moments and you have the feeling he isnt the answer but as a backup ruck is good value to have on the list.
If Kruezer can stay fit and get into form his best is better than Wood but the latter is very good to have as a backup player as he can do a job for you but will never be a dominating ruckman...
Lololol at Mark Stevens in the press conference what an embarrassment to Ch 7 along with Harley he is
Ch 7 coverage has again become tired and stereotyped. Badly in need of refreshing and the myopic ones removed.
I was amazed when Bwecie and Harlot started going on about how good the umpiring had been!!
It was bound to happen and for a number of reasons too.
Injuries to a number of important players near kill us, we don't have the quality back-up that other clubs have and we were forced to play some young fellas with their 'L' plates on.
Port are a seriously good team who have been struggling recently, at home with a Top 4 spot up for grabs, they could smell the blood in the water and were not going to let this chance just pass them by.
When your season is over like ours is, its easy for some players to put the cue in the rack and I reckon there were a few who did tonight. I really hate it happening but that is an area for Malthouse to work through.
We have a number of players who just aren't good enough even though many many Blues fans still hold on with dire expectation that they will be okay. Some players can't kick, some players can't mark, some players can't tackle and some players can't do all three. We have been gallant & tried hard over the past month but it is in close games where those deficiencies get put under the spotlight and are exposed.
Unless we decide to replace them on the list (I don't think so), then we have to persist with the ongoing development of Holman & Johnson, they are part of the future plans until such time as there are surpassed by others.
Wood in the ruck has been an upgrade on Warnock and I am happy to see him at the club. However, if we are serious about the future, then we must build a new ruck division starting now by adding two more decent young options to Wood & Kreuzer. Lobbe was very good for them tonight and he gave Wood a touch-up for the most part.
We lack key forwards, we lack a couple of mids and our defence is only "okay" at present.
A massive loss like tonight put everyone at the club under further pressure and I'm sure they, like us can't wait for this season to finish so we can focus on the draft & trade periods. Hopefully there is plenty of activity and we hit the ground running in 2015 with some renewed purpose & vigour.
AC/DC told us that "it's a long way to the top" but right now, it looks more like we are on the "highway to hell".
Come on guys, we are only about 18 players short of a great squad. Surely we can fix that in one drafting season, and a few free agents pick ups ???
Yes we are 18 short as a minimum
5 to 7 years from being top 4 as a minimum
Thought MM was pretty good in his presser.
Anyway game over they are not as good as that game suggested and we are not that bad.
Let's see what 2015 holds - I think next week is a washout but let's hope, and I don't say this ever, but I hope they ale sure some druggies are cited next wk ;)
Come on guys, we are only about 18 players short of a great squad. Surely we can fix that in one drafting season, and a few free agents pick ups ???
Yes we are 18 short as a minimum
5 to 7 years from being top 4 as a minimum
port was bottom 2 years ago top 4 today, where's your logic? Enjoy the ASADA ban dipcrap
Lololol at Mark Stevens in the press conference what an embarrassment to Ch 7 along with Harley he is
What happened ?
He always asks deliberately stupid questions to Mick, then puts the whole 'but what did I do' act on when Mick fires up or fobs him off.
@micky o
With rodgers in charge we are years away
With no development and poor reserves arrangement
Get a reality check..our list is poor...hence my suggested timeframe
Ouch.
They were too physical and had too much run. many of our guys looked a bit clueless out there.
Some of our leadership showed a bit of pride, but not many others followed.
Rowe and Casboult should be taken to task over 2 amateur mistakes.......... They are not "good " kicks , let alone decent kicks of the footy so dont even bother to try and kick the footy off 1 step, or when walking backwards for that matter.
Seriously cannot blame Rowe for that goal, bagging Rowe is basically defending Lucas for a pea-hearted effort, the lad did not even contest when he should have been pushing hard back to make a contest. I'll take Rowe 1000X over the likes of Lucas.
Tonight showed why offering Carrazzo an extension was so wrong, just a panic merchant and cost us dearly with panic disposals. The Carrazzo mafia on the forum will come out and defend him but he is done, well and truly cooked!
Other than that, not much to say about tonight, too many injuries and a team full of players marking of the days until Mad Monday!
Interesting presser by Mick. Basically blokes are stuffed and we are always against sides up for top 4 so basically.. we are basically fighting quality sides with a lot on the line.
So depressing. That used to be us - we'd be the perennial top 4 side. Tonight again showed how far off we are from achieving this. Put a guy who's playing his 1st to 5th game in a side like Swans or Cats and they'll get shown how to hunt like a lioness does with her cubs. Put 'em in our side and they'll see panic, turnover, demoralising red time goals, poor decisions, lack of shepherding, no awareness, poor field positioning, and so on.
I'd love to see the secret formula that decides whether Melbourne gets a priority draft pick. 'Coz if they get one, we should get 2.
Rowe was immense.
@lp carrots was given a multi year extension when injured
Jamo got a 3 year extension
Watson got a 2 year extension
Talk to swan and sticks why this happened
Rowe was immense.
I wouldn't say "immense", he was as honest as they come.
@lp carrots was given a multi year extension when injured
Jamo got a 3 year extension
Watson got a 2 year extension
Talk to swan and sticks why this happened
Very poor list management.
Rowe has been a positive in an awful year.
Come on guys, we are only about 18 players short of a great squad. Surely we can fix that in one drafting season, and a few free agents pick ups ???
Yes we are 18 short as a minimum
5 to 7 years from being top 4 as a minimum
Disagree as we've been competitive against the top sides in recent times. Two weeks out with a sparse list we can be forgiven for dropping off. Remember how poorly Freo performed in the last round in 2013 when they fielded a dramatically undermanned squad against the Saints and got flogged because there was no consequence.
Rowe has been a positive in an awful year.
Deserves an award at the B&F.
Rowe has been a positive in an awful year.
Been very good and is nice bloke too so its great to see him cement a place in the team and get a new contract....when Holman was copping some treatment I thought
Rowe was the only player to help the kid out and I wouldnt mind another Sam Rowe in the team.....
Rowe was immense.
I wouldn't say "immense", he was as honest as they come.
Did you happen to notice they had more shots on goal than we had points in our entire score.
Tells you about where the game was played.
Rowe is considered a failed forward but he would have kicked 7 if he'd been playing in a port jumper.
Tonight was an opportunity for a lot of players to stand up and prove themselves but wow were we terrible!
At least I can happily get over the fact that players like Lucas and a lot of others are gone and be happy they are because they lack ticker and desire. We have a lot of players who cant make an impact. I cant believe players can sit there and watch Murphy get belted from pillar to post and not one player flew the flag in any way again. Without alot of list changes we will finish bottom 4 next year again we have too many players who can run with players but heaven help us if they win the ball they are counter productive.
I have only posted once before and was shot down in flames when I said Gibbs should be captain and I tell you now and I don't have the privilege of being able to go to every game but he is by far our best option and our best player not to mention someone who gives a crap about the club.
Tonight was an opportunity for a lot of players to stand up and prove themselves but wow were we terrible!
At least I can happily get over the fact that players like Lucas and a lot of others are gone and be happy they are because they lack ticker and desire. We have a lot of players who cant make an impact. I cant believe players can sit there and watch Murphy get belted from pillar to post and not one player flew the flag in any way again. Without alot of list changes we will finish bottom 4 next year again we have too many players who can run with players but heaven help us if they win the ball they are counter productive.
I have only posted once before and was shot down in flames when I said Gibbs should be captain and I tell you now and I don't have the priviledge of being able to go to every game but he is by far our best option and our best player not to mention someone who gives a crap about the club.
Good stuff Soffo !!!
I have only posted once before and was shot down in flames
Mate don't let that stop you from posting. You had the strength of your convictions to post what you believed and the overwhelming majority of posters on here would respect that. We all cop a bit from time to time but the forum rules ensure it's nothing personal and in reality it isn't. If you love Carlton as we all do please participate in this forum because we'd love to have you here. :)
Tonight was an opportunity for a lot of players to stand up and prove themselves but wow were we terrible!
At least I can happily get over the fact that players like Lucas and a lot of others are gone and be happy they are because they lack ticker and desire. We have a lot of players who cant make an impact. I cant believe players can sit there and watch Murphy get belted from pillar to post and not one player flew the flag in any way again. Without alot of list changes we will finish bottom 4 next year again we have too many players who can run with players but heaven help us if they win the ball they are counter productive.
You raise a good point on counter productivity. Sometimes it seems they can either be good with the ball or good off the ball but not both.
@soffo
Love your work mate but I thought Gibbs first two chances to win the ball showed where the team's mindset was last night, simply did not want it.
Senior players need to be held accountable, Carrazzo, Judd, Gibbs, Murphy (until injured), Simpson, Yarran, Curnow, these blokes all stunk it up badly. Yarran especially took two steps back tonight, just did not want to be out there and that is just so disappointing.
Rowe deserves a medal, I criticised him a little last week saying a mans gots to know his limitations but he was just awesome. We could have lost by 150 points without him. Not really sure who else I can give votes to TBH.
The only thing to consider is that we played the last 40 minutes of last week with one fit player on the bench so I guess we were a little flat. I can accept this as long as we do our best to derail the scum next week.
A bit shattered.
I've been trying to think of things to write.
Can't think of much..... it was bad really bad.
It's pretty simple though......
no desire+ no commitment+playing young and injured players=total destruction.Mick probably summed it up best, albeit months ago.......
I pray it's a one-off. If that's the sort of stuff we're going to dish up, it's a miserable year in front of us. I am loath to think that we could actually dish that up again,"
Yes Lods, there's not much to say. Terrible, terrible performance against a team that hit some red hot form. The only positives were Rowe and Gibbs.
Probably one of our biggest weaknesses is defending against elite small forwards. Port got 10 goals from Gray, Wingard and Neade. Let's look at our current small defenders:
-Tuohy: has gone backwards this year. Leaks goals.
-Yarran: more of a offensive defender than a lockdown player.
-Walker: same as Yarran.
-Simpson: same as Yarran.
-Docherty: Developing - may turn out to be very good. ATM, probably more offensive than a real lockdown role.
-Sheehan: Developing, but could turn out to be very good.
-Holman: First game, so who knows?
-Armfield: Not really used there this year (little senior game time due to indifferent form and injuries). Could handle speedy fwds, but not small fwds who are good overhead like jamie Elliott.
I'm not saying this is the main reason why we lost last night, just highlighting one of our big weakness in our playing list.
That's 8 from 40, or 20% of our list that would struggle to be considered 'solid' in the defensive roles they primarily play.... strewth our list has some issues.
It was fantastic to see many of our players crashing into Crowley a few weeks ago to help Murphy out. What happened to this mindset last night? Soffo, is spot on about our players not standing up for Murphy against Port - pathetic! Our intensity of previous weeks didn't happen last night and instead we displayed an extremely embarrassing lack of effort.
Let's get away from the train wreck of last night and start thinking about next week. We need more pace and zip and some forward options. My wish list;
I want Touhy played higher up the ground eg on a wing because his defensive positioning is currently embarrassing.
I want more forward options - maybe Garlett, and even Armfield for general run (gulp!). I'd even be tempted to play Watson (bigger gulp) as a deep fwd option to give us something to kick to.
I'd be tempted to give Cripps a run as well.
...and be prepared for a fight, the scum will try to ppund us.
I didn't really care about the game and obviously the team didn't either. Next week is a different story.
That's 8 from 40, or 20% of our list that would struggle to be considered 'solid' in the defensive roles they primarily play.... strewth our list has some issues.
Yep, big worry Professer.
We just don't have the depth of talent especially in the midfield. We can play out of our skins for couple of weeks, hold our own with the Cats, but we just can't keep it going every week. We just don't have the depth to do that and we just blow up, witness last night.
If we are not very busy at the trade table and very wise with our drafting this pain will continue. We all like roller coasters don't we?
@Soffo
Good post Soffo, would be good to hear more from you.
I didn't really care about the game and obviously the team didn't either. Next week is a different story.
It's quite conceivable that I'm dumb as dogsh*t, but I just don't understand. Your personal feelings are what they are, but I don't think our team is in any position to pick and choose the games that they will be interested in. Yes, it's been a long season, but it's been long for all teams, not just us. Youngsters or oldsters, first gamers or last gamers, the effort and care that you put in should be the same. To me last night feels like the undoing of several weeks of decent effort. Extremely disheartened.
One of the things that bugged me about Ratts was that he subscribed to the whole tribal/territorial mentality, that a win over "the arch enemy" somehow has more value or tastes sweeter than other victories. Malthouse, to his credit, doesn't buy into this idea, believing that it belongs to the old VFL days, and has no place in a national competition. Thank God for Mick.
Tonight was an opportunity for a lot of players to stand up and prove themselves but wow were we terrible!
At least I can happily get over the fact that players like Lucas and a lot of others are gone and be happy they are because they lack ticker and desire. We have a lot of players who cant make an impact. I cant believe players can sit there and watch Murphy get belted from pillar to post and not one player flew the flag in any way again. Without alot of list changes we will finish bottom 4 next year again we have too many players who can run with players but heaven help us if they win the ball they are counter productive.
I have only posted once before and was shot down in flames when I said Gibbs should be captain and I tell you now and I don't have the privilege of being able to go to every game but he is by far our best option and our best player not to mention someone who gives a crap about the club.
Slightly harsh on Murph there Soffo but I respect your opinion. I wasnt a big fan on him as captain but I think he has grown into the role and is starting to show a fair bit. I also trust the judgement of the coach after hearing him speak on various occasions about Murph. As for the fact he gets belted out on the ground and no one does anything about it? Thats just an utter disgrace and and not a reflection on Murph but rather his piss weak team mates. Not talking about the incident where he was concussed as that was an accident (even though it was a terrible kick to him) resulting from him hitting his head on the ground. But earlier, he was bumped and knocked over after his turnover resulted in a goal and not one team mate did a forking thing about it. My blood boiled to the point where I almost passed out. It happened against the Cheating Scum earlier in the year on the boundary line when that young pr!ck bumped him and chested him and same thing, team mates did nothing. The day these blokes start showing some ticker and passion is the day I will start getting interested again.
@soffo
Love your work mate but I thought Gibbs first two chances to win the ball showed where the team's mindset was last night, simply did not want it.
Senior players need to be held accountable, Carrazzo, Judd, Gibbs, Murphy (until injured), Simpson, Yarran, Curnow, these blokes all stunk it up badly. Yarran especially took two steps back tonight, just did not want to be out there and that is just so disappointing.
Rowe deserves a medal, I criticised him a little last week saying a mans gots to know his limitations but he was just awesome. We could have lost by 150 points without him. Not really sure who else I can give votes to TBH.
The only thing to consider is that we played the last 40 minutes of last week with one fit player on the bench so I guess we were a little flat. I can accept this as long as we do our best to derail the scum next week.
Good summation Carrots.
Yep - very disappointing to see them reverting back to some bad habits last night.
I really want to believe that we've turned a corner. The boys are making that extremely difficult to believe after last night's effort.
Yep - very disappointing to see them reverting back to some bad habits last night.
I really want to believe that we've turned a corner. The boys are making that extremely difficult to believe after last night's effort.
We just have zero consistency, its a roller coaster. I'm telling you we will give the Cheating Scum a hiding next week.
Made the journey across last night and leaving the disaster that was a football match aside, the Adelaide Oval is an incredible venue when packed last night. The makeover has been incredible.
Also the PA marketing gurus are on a winner with the 45 sec 'Never Tear Us Apart' just before the bounce. It had a real Liverpool feel with 50000 scarves being held up and everyone singing. Brilliant marketing coup. (We could have used it 12 years ago!)
Too many boys sent to do a man's job last night. They were spent all over the ground. Nothing in the legs and mentally let down by the close call last week and nothing to play for.
With a full list and a few tops us, we are better than that.
I want Tuohy played higher up the ground eg on a wing because his defensive positioning is currently embarrassing.
It's true. Ours is a unique game with many nuances, subtleties and "grey areas". He first played the game at 20. Can't possibly be expected to have the same feel for the game as someone who started in the under 10's and attended/watched games growing up. The goal they got with 4 seconds to go (2nd q?) was because he was caught out of position.
Tonight was an opportunity for a lot of players to stand up and prove themselves but wow were we terrible!
At least I can happily get over the fact that players like Lucas and a lot of others are gone and be happy they are because they lack ticker and desire. We have a lot of players who cant make an impact. I cant believe players can sit there and watch Murphy get belted from pillar to post and not one player flew the flag in any way again. Without alot of list changes we will finish bottom 4 next year again we have too many players who can run with players but heaven help us if they win the ball they are counter productive.
I have only posted once before and was shot down in flames when I said Gibbs should be captain and I tell you now and I don't have the privilege of being able to go to every game but he is by far our best option and our best player not to mention someone who gives a crap about the club.
Not only did we get belted physically, at one stage I saw Docherty (I think) help a Port player to his feet by pulling him up by the jumper.
I'm all for sportsmanship but gee whizz we lack mongrel.
I was interested during last night's commentary when Duck was asked about who we might be looking at delisting. I think his comments are normally OK but he mentioned Wood and Bell. Bell is borderline yes, but Wood was certainly not one I'd have picked out. I thought Duck must have got the name wrong?
The duck made the comment after Wood spilt a mark which cost a goal. Wayne is particularly critical of players that make what he deems to be basic errors. I thought his comment was on the arrogant side as Wood worked hard to get into a position to mark. Harley was another that opined that as a mature player, Wood keeps making critical errors.
Bell was deadest awful all night, couldn't get involved.. Looked slow, lacking in mobility, clumsy and skill deficient last night.... along with about 15 others.
Im sorry but loooking at our list we are deplorable in the mid-depth dept, genuine mids that is, who have mongrel, poise and skill.
-Bell
-McLean
-Ellard
-Carrazzo
-Robinson
-Curnow
-Cachia
-Armfield
-Lucas
-Temay
That is 10 AFL Carlton listed footballers who are ball carriers, flankers, mids, whatever you want to call them. Skills are woeful. It's embarrassing!
Then you have guys like - McInnes, Watson, Warnock. Give us zero!!
Then there is a half-backer in Walker coughing up the ball time and time again. Turn-over merchant. Play him forward or trade him!
Casboult and Waite ordinary kicks for goal - kick ands hope types. Got strengths such as marking but really are not the be all and end all. Waite should be let go IMO. Casboult I'd rather keep than let go but I don't want us couhging up overs for him. Fair but not bent over ala past years and contracts!
Then there's - Duigan (gone), Bootsma (gone), Scotland (gone).
We are playing with half a list IMO, it's a park team/list!
@Pratty
Mate the picture you paint is dismal but unfortunately all too accurate! Our recruiters certainly have the job ahead of 'em.
On the bright side I reckon we have done well with what we have, considering that only about half the list are up to scratch.
Even if we cull 10-12 this year I doubt we can be weaker than this season... I suspect that kids and state leaguers will give us more than many on Pratty's list.
Tonight was an opportunity for a lot of players to stand up and prove themselves but wow were we terrible!
At least I can happily get over the fact that players like Lucas and a lot of others are gone and be happy they are because they lack ticker and desire. We have a lot of players who cant make an impact. I cant believe players can sit there and watch Murphy get belted from pillar to post and not one player flew the flag in any way again. Without alot of list changes we will finish bottom 4 next year again we have too many players who can run with players but heaven help us if they win the ball they are counter productive.
I have only posted once before and was shot down in flames when I said Gibbs should be captain and I tell you now and I don't have the privilege of being able to go to every game but he is by far our best option and our best player not to mention someone who gives a crap about the club.
I'm not saying sack Murph, but this isn't such a stupid idea. I was really impressed with just how much determination and hurt I saw on Gibbs face at times last night during the game. He was showing that he really cared. Something I can't say for too many of his team mates.
Easy and understandable to be gloomy re our prospects... especially when weighed up against that insipid effort last night. Really don't like hearing MM saying our boys have been 'up' for so long that they are now tired :o Last night's performance makes the 'rubicon' comment seem fanciful.
But I'm not as pessimistic as some. On the positive side we know exactly where we are - ordinary with moments of real endeavour and fierce competitiveness... and moments of being downright catatonic.
North Bogansville targetted our few leaders / play makers from the get-go last night, and we wilted.
But you put Walker, Thomas, Everitt, Henderson and Cripps (and maybe even Jeffy) in that side and we look much better. It would mean there'd be no Johnson, Holman, Meat (desperately needs a rest), Lucas, Graham ... but the up side is that we have gotten games into/taste Holman, Johnson, Graham, Sheehan etc. Get a pre season into these cats and things begin to look better.
But we definitely, still, have too many passengers - if after 5 years in the system Meat still can't see out a season... well :o , Ellard, Lucas, Warnock, Watson, McLean, Temay, Armfield & McInnes should be the blokes finding a new home. I would add, possibly, Meat and / Waite to that list as well. Another 25% turnover. Should we recruit this year as well or better than last year (should aim for better), then our list will really begin to take shape and I reckon we'd improve strongly on this year... and that could mean anything (in terms of ladder position improvement).
I don't really care about that loss to be honest. Nothing to gain from it and once they got on top early, you could just about spot the moment we threw in the towel.
I thought the loss to Essendon and possibly Melbourne were worse.
I liken it to Geelong losing to Sydney by 110 points in round 11 at nearly full strength. (I hope it's a one-off anyway)
@Pratty
Mate the picture you paint is dismal but unfortunately all too accurate! Our recruiters certainly have the job ahead of 'em.
Yes I know he is only a kid in his first year but Cripps was uninspiring in the 2's today. Granted he had plenty of mates as the 2's put up the same performance as the 1's today. I expected more from him given he is touted as having excellent leadership skills.
I feel ripped off paying $30 for GA ticket on the hill.
I left at three quarter time with a port supporting mate to hit the pub for a catchup beer. Neither of us enjoyed the one sidedness of last night one bit.
But yep, AO is a great venue indeed. World class.
Next time the Blues come to SA, ffs bring your A game lads. Please.
Im sorry but loooking at our list we are deplorable in the mid-depth dept, genuine mids that is, who have mongrel, poise and skill.
-Bell
-McLean
-Ellard
-Carrazzo
-Robinson
-Curnow
-Cachia
-Armfield
-Lucas
-Temay
That is 10 AFL Carlton listed footballers who are ball carriers, flankers, mids, whatever you want to call them. Skills are woeful. It's embarrassing!
Then you have guys like - McInnes, Watson, Warnock. Give us zero!!
Then there is a half-backer in Walker coughing up the ball time and time again. Turn-over merchant. Play him forward or trade him!
Casboult and Waite ordinary kicks for goal - kick ands hope types. Got strengths such as marking but really are not the be all and end all. Waite should be let go IMO. Casboult I'd rather keep than let go but I don't want us couhging up overs for him. Fair but not bent over ala past years and contracts!
Then there's - Duigan (gone), Bootsma (gone), Scotland (gone).
We are playing with half a list IMO, it's a park team/list!
Nailed it Pratty.....problem being though we cant delist or trade that many players(no one will want them anyway).
I'd keep Casboult and employ the best kicking coach in the country to straighten that action out...a curved appraoch witha two handed ball drop is about as bad as it gets.
Been a fan of Tom Bell but he just hasnt developed ..Juddy has been mentoring him and the kid has learned nothing, had the one big game where he kicked 4 goals but generally his kicking is woeful, decision making poor and if he wasnt a good tackler and big bodied he would be at Cramer street most of the year kicking the dew of the grass...
Curnow at least gives some application and concentration., doesnt have the talent of Bell but the latter just dozes off for parts of games and is useless for too many long periods ....
Temay...dont get me started on Rodgers..WTF he was thinking when he called his name out I dont know...
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-08-23/no-structural-damage-for-murphy
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-08-23/no-structural-damage-for-murphy
Great news
Do we attribute the loss of Daisy's leadership to the blow-out and cue in rack?
Yes hasn't been in rampant form, but I reckon players like him can help drive a teams endeavour when it starts to get flat.
Do we attribute the loss of Daisy's leadership to the blow-out and cue in rack?
Yes hasn't been in rampant form, but I reckon players like him can help drive a teams endeavour when it starts to get flat.
Maybe. I've heard worse theories. Daisy can say many things about his season, and so can we, but at no time have we questioned his courage or his commitment.
Do we attribute the loss of Daisy's leadership to the blow-out and cue in rack?
Yes hasn't been in rampant form, but I reckon players like him can help drive a teams endeavour when it starts to get flat.
Maybe. I've heard worse theories. Daisy can say many things about his season, and so can we, but at no time have we questioned his courage or his commitment.
Taking one faint positive from that, if Daisy comes good next year it'll be like having a newly minted quality mid in our ranks. He could be extremely important for us.
That's what we paid for. Let's hope it comes to fruition for us.
I dont think Daisy's leadership would have had much effect last night.....he would have been under the pump chasing Port Ar$e all evening and would have offered little in terms of direction etc. We needed a big like Jonothan Brown to lead us into battle and rally the troops....some one our kids like Holman , Johnson etc could know they could count on Brown to deliver the big plays and lead from the front. Murphy tries but lacks support and gets targetted himself ,our kids got intimidated, panicked, lose focus and we lost our nerve at times, game plans go out the door when you are rattled....Daisy wasnt going to fix any of that.
I haven't seen the game and I'm not going to bother with the replay. However, as I sit here sipping an Aussie wine and contemplating the Moray Firth, I can't help but wonder about our apparent inability to run out the game.
Yes, we had a hard game last week but did Port have a bye? We're supposed to have the fitness guru in Buttifant but clearly something is wrong if the team can't run out a game in the home and away season.
I wonder if we'll go to Arizona in the pre-season
I haven't seen the game and I'm not going to bother with the replay. However, as I sit here sipping an Aussie wine and contemplating the Moray Firth, I can't help but wonder about our apparent inability to run out the game.
Yes, we had a hard game last week but did Port have a bye? We're supposed to have the fitness guru in Buttifant but clearly something is wrong if the team can't run out a game in the home and away season.
I wonder if we'll go to Arizona in the pre-season
We couldn't even run out the first quarter.
We were totally outclassed and it had little to do with fitness but more with a lack of intensity, desire....all those other relevant things.
We had young players and injured players and they were close to full strength.
It was just a disaster that's best put behind us....and certainly not worth watching again (unless you're involved in list management ;))
Do we attribute the loss of Daisy's leadership to the blow-out and cue in rack?
Yes hasn't been in rampant form, but I reckon players like him can help drive a teams endeavour when it starts to get flat.
Daisy would have been exposed just like every other player. I am yet to see any acts of leadership that stand out from him (ie Murphy running back to take mark, Gibbs kicking big goals late in games, Carrazzo turning the game vs Selwood). What he is doing behind closed doors I can't judge him on but going by his form this year he would have been swallowed up and spat out.
Do we attribute the loss of Daisy's leadership to the blow-out and cue in rack?
Yes hasn't been in rampant form, but I reckon players like him can help drive a teams endeavour when it starts to get flat.
Funny, 3 Leos, the same thought crossed my mind. Already without the on-field leadership of Hendo, then to lose two very extroverted leaders/players in Daisy and Brock and then losing the impressively improving Murphy early saw the on-field leadership fall to Simmo (who was targetted), Juddy (who must have had the flu) and Carrazzo. Not the cause of our loss, but certainly a strong contributor to the manner in which we folded.
I dont think Daisy's leadership would have had much effect last night.....he would have been under the pump chasing Port Ar$e all evening and would have offered little in terms of direction etc. We needed a big like Jonothan Brown to lead us into battle and rally the troops....some one our kids like Holman , Johnson etc could know they could count on Brown to deliver the big plays and lead from the front. Murphy tries but lacks support and gets targetted himself ,our kids got intimidated, panicked, lose focus and we lost our nerve at times, game plans go out the door when you are rattled....Daisy wasnt going to fix any of that.
There was an opportunity to change the game Friday night and it was not taken. When Murph turned it over and then got knocked over by a PA player, WW3 should have started by our blokes running in from everywhere. A few PA players would have been sat on there asses and perhaps changes their attitude abit. Instead, they intimidated us all night and the game was over.
I haven't seen the game and I'm not going to bother with the replay. However, as I sit here sipping an Aussie wine and contemplating the Moray Firth, I can't help but wonder about our apparent inability to run out the game.
Yes, we had a hard game last week but did Port have a bye? We're supposed to have the fitness guru in Buttifant but clearly something is wrong if the team can't run out a game in the home and away season.
I wonder if we'll go to Arizona in the pre-season
The Club has stated Arizona is not happening this year, we are training in the Australian heat. Thank fork for that.
I haven't seen the game and I'm not going to bother with the replay. However, as I sit here sipping an Aussie wine and contemplating the Moray Firth, I can't help but wonder about our apparent inability to run out the game.
Yes, we had a hard game last week but did Port have a bye? We're supposed to have the fitness guru in Buttifant but clearly something is wrong if the team can't run out a game in the home and away season.
I wonder if we'll go to Arizona in the pre-season
We couldn't even run out the first quarter.
We were totally outclassed and it had little to do with fitness but more with a lack of intensity, desire....all those other relevant things.
We had young players and injured players and they were close to full strength.
It was just a disaster that's best put behind us....and certainly not worth watching again (unless you're involved in list management ;))
We effectively had one of sports top fitness gurus in Cordy and he was flicked for Buttifant. I realise Buttifant is a good mate of MM, and that he has had some tragedy in his life, but friendships and bad luck should not be part of the decision making!
Go to
Final Siren (http://www.finalsiren.com/Fixture.asp?TeamID=14&SeasonID=2014#quarterstats) and look at our last quarter stats for the last few years, we have gone backwards massively!
Summary(4th Quarters);
W D L For Against %
2014 4th 10 0 11 69.50 (464) 66.81 (477) 97.27
2013 4th 13 0 11 81.84 (570) 69.79 (493) 115.62
2012 4th 12 1 9 83.72 (570) 66.54 (450) 126.67
2011 4th 13 2 9 95.73 (643) 74.61 (505) 127.33
Yeah I guess Mick can turn the team around as much as he wants, we will still be left with the boys club leftovers ie Daisy and Buttifant, both still yet to prove their worth.
I haven't seen the game and I'm not going to bother with the replay. However, as I sit here sipping an Aussie wine and contemplating the Moray Firth, I can't help but wonder about our apparent inability to run out the game.
Yes, we had a hard game last week but did Port have a bye? We're supposed to have the fitness guru in Buttifant but clearly something is wrong if the team can't run out a game in the home and away season.
I wonder if we'll go to Arizona in the pre-season
The Club has stated Arizona is not happening this year, we are training in the Australian heat. Thank fork for that.
x2 We effectively chose Arizona over having another coach when we were completely shaking everything up - ie. when players needed plenty of assistance (if it cost the reported 700K, then it's actually 2 coaches). Instead we got Green. Who the fork made that decision?
same old story ,kicking to a contest, kicking straight to opp,this has been happening for yrs.Said during the yr we are not fit or strong enough (is there a gym at pp)our players have no build at all (look at boak or hartlett build)an e.g was waite v 1 on1 then all of a sudden waite v 4 port players that fitness.
I haven't seen the game and I'm not going to bother with the replay. However, as I sit here sipping an Aussie wine and contemplating the Moray Firth, I can't help but wonder about our apparent inability to run out the game.
Yes, we had a hard game last week but did Port have a bye? We're supposed to have the fitness guru in Buttifant but clearly something is wrong if the team can't run out a game in the home and away season.
I wonder if we'll go to Arizona in the pre-season
We couldn't even run out the first quarter.
We were totally outclassed and it had little to do with fitness but more with a lack of intensity, desire....all those other relevant things.
We had young players and injured players and they were close to full strength.
It was just a disaster that's best put behind us....and certainly not worth watching again (unless you're involved in list management ;))
We effectively had one of sports top fitness gurus in Cordy and he was flicked for Buttifant. I realise Buttifant is a good mate of MM, and that he has had some tragedy in his life, but friendships and bad luck should not be part of the decision making!
Go to Final Siren (http://www.finalsiren.com/Fixture.asp?TeamID=14&SeasonID=2014#quarterstats) and look at our last quarter stats for the last few years, we have gone backwards massively!
Summary(4th Quarters);
W D L For Against %
2014 4th 10 0 11 69.50 (464) 66.81 (477) 97.27
2013 4th 13 0 11 81.84 (570) 69.79 (493) 115.62
2012 4th 12 1 9 83.72 (570) 66.54 (450) 126.67
2011 4th 13 2 9 95.73 (643) 74.61 (505) 127.33
This year we had 22 operations in the pre season. We have had 3 players retire/sacked. Add to that the crap drafting thanks to Wayne Hughes where we got DUDS!
Watson, Lucas and Bootsma should have all developed enough by now to be regulars in the side as first round picks. This is where we suffer the most those three years with three bad picks in a row. We couldn't count on any of them to come in and take the load of others so the main crew get tired. Then look at the injuries and poor play of others. Garlett really hurts we miss his zip, Walker has hurt putting more pressure on Yazz to run and carry. Warnock rucking and his limpness has work our Casboult who in his first full season looks very tired and I put that down to having to ruck too much. Wood has come in and Levi doesn't seem to have to ruck as much, but he's cooked.
But Ray we've been through those drafts before and didn't really miss too much remembering they were compromised drafts, other than the obvious ones ie Darling. But that should have no bearing on our ability to run out games.
But Ray we've been through those drafts before and didn't really miss too much remembering they were compromised drafts, other than the obvious ones ie Darling. But that should have no bearing on our ability to run out games.
Yes they do have bearing. Watson should be holding down a key position, Lucas should be doing a Lions share of the ball carrying and Bootsma should also be contributing. Bring in those three plus the two we lost mid pre or mid season and we look fresher. Buckley even with his carry. The same people are being asked to run 15km per game every week with little relief. I know it's their job, but the good teams drafted well and bought the younger players in with talent.
We have bought in three first year players this year and if anything the others have had to work harder to "look after them".
As Mick has stated we have NO DEPTH and that is because of the lost three year in the draft.
All picks between 10-20 should be 150 gamers if you get your recruiting right.
Sure they were compromised drafts but these guys were still rated the 20th and under best players that year, even with GC and GWS getting many picks.
You cannot tell me that the year Watson was chosen we didn't get a single player capable of having a successful AFL career?
Ask Lucas how being such a low pick has effected Nate Fyfe (20), Lewis Jetta (14), Daniel Talia (13), Jasper Pittard (15), Ryan Bastinac (21), Jake Carslile (24), Travis Colyer (26), Mitch Duncan (28) or Jack Guston (29). It was almost harder to miss a 150 gamer than get one.
2009, 2010, 2011 drafts are the reason we are suffering at the moment through lack of depth and quality.
Mate we've moved on from all that, the list has shown it can play over the last four weeks, so there's no more going back and complaining about the past. The list can play, as long as we are not decimated with injury there is no excuse next year.
@ Carrots. All they've proved to me is that they can produce the odd honourable loss v. Top teams when all stops are pulled out. I'm nowhere near convinced we can be competitive week in week out even with a full team.
I think the Cats and Freo games were more than honourable losses personally. I'm not sure you can keep revisiting the 'list is sht' excuse every time we play poorly anymore, it's time to move forward, our list is more than competitive IMO. Of course I've always thought this so people may call me biased. At least I've been consistent though, I've criticised the coach for some time but then I've been happy to give him credit when he's turned it around. Others have criticised the list when we play poorly and credited Mick when we've done well.
@ Carrots
All I can go by is what I see and where we stand on the ladder. I see poor skills and mistakes regularly on show and tougher teams beat us up and shrug us off. Blame who you like in term of coaching, list, recruitment, development but I am expecting something to be done to improve things for 2015.
Players will no doubt be cast aside and if we still look the same way next year MM will no doubt be gone. I'm not making any excuses for anybody, I want to see better for the CFC as a whole.
Me too! I had honestly believed we had turned the corner.
BTW I didn't mean you. ;)
Me too! I had honestly believed we had turned the corner.
BTW I didn't mean you. ;)
All cool mate.
Like you I thought we had made some progress but Friday shattered that illusion for sure. OK we'd have done brilliantly to win but we were just blown away. >:(
I'm prepared to put that down to the players playing with one rotation for 40 mins and leaving nothing out there against the Cats. Port were clearly at their best and we were flat, a dangerous mix. Let's see what we can do against the scum this week.
I'm prepared to put that down to the players playing with one rotation for 40 mins and leaving nothing out there against the Cats. Port were clearly at their best and we were flat, a dangerous mix. Let's see what we can do against the scum this week.
Yep, kicking their ass would sure cheer us up.
But Ray we've been through those drafts before and didn't really miss too much remembering they were compromised drafts, other than the obvious ones ie Darling. But that should have no bearing on our ability to run out games.
Yes they do have bearing. Watson should be holding down a key position, Lucas should be doing a Lions share of the ball carrying and Bootsma should also be contributing. Bring in those three plus the two we lost mid pre or mid season and we look fresher. Buckley even with his carry. The same people are being asked to run 15km per game every week with little relief. I know it's their job, but the good teams drafted well and bought the younger players in with talent.
We have bought in three first year players this year and if anything the others have had to work harder to "look after them".
As Mick has stated we have NO DEPTH and that is because of the lost three year in the draft.
All picks between 10-20 should be 150 gamers if you get your recruiting right.
Sure they were compromised drafts but these guys were still rated the 20th and under best players that year, even with GC and GWS getting many picks.
You cannot tell me that the year Watson was chosen we didn't get a single player capable of having a successful AFL career?
Ask Lucas how being such a low pick has effected Nate Fyfe (20), Lewis Jetta (14), Daniel Talia (13), Jasper Pittard (15), Ryan Bastinac (21), Jake Carslile (24), Travis Colyer (26), Mitch Duncan (28) or Jack Guston (29). It was almost harder to miss a 150 gamer than get one.
2009, 2010, 2011 drafts are the reason we are suffering at the moment through lack of depth and quality.
Absolutely, irrefutably correct. We are now paying for the abject failure of this appalling recruiting period in terms of being exposed for having 'no depth'. Had we even achieved a 35-40% success rate from those years we'd be at least 5 or so blokes better off. From that horrible period we only have Meat (and only just), Tuohy and Rowe who are regulars. During this period we recruited 20+ blokes and have barely a 10% success. Howling failures (a few of which were our big KPP hopes - including Watson), to name just a few, include - Lucas, Davies, Tiller, Kerr, Donaldson, McCarthy, Mitchell, McInnes, Carter, Bray, Lodge, Hill, Stanton etcetera!
We have to factor this reality into our disappointment. We're still paying for the sins of the past. Another good recruiting year this year and next, and our progress will at least be competitive... and from there, who knows. I fully expect us to be better next year, much better. And if we're not... then I would expect the guts to be ripped out of the coaching dept. The current coaching group, IMHO, have next year to prove themselves. A couple should go this year, if for no other reason than to inject some youthful passion into the group.
It just seems that every time we start to think "we've turned the corner", the players think they've "turned the corner" and (call it what you like)...."get ahead of themselves" ...and lose that notion that they still have to work just as hard for a win.
When it started to go a bit pear shaped on Friday there seemed to me the impression that it was all a bit hard to maintain the effort.
A smart committed side might not have won, or even got close....but they could surely have lessened the size of the defeat.
Correct, there is no doubting the talent of Judd, Gibbs, Murphy, Carrazzo, Waite, Yarran, Simpson et al. There was definitely doubt in their commitment to the cause on Friday. Someone gave Gibbs 8 votes FFS! I thought Gibbs set the bar very low in his first few attempts to win the pill. I don't buy into the drafting excuses, they certainly didn't hold us back the previous four weeks. It's too easy to go back there every time we have a poor performance. That's not the problem. Time to move forward.
It just seems that every time we start to think "we've turned the corner", the players think they've "turned the corner" and (call it what you like)...."get ahead of themselves" ...and lose that notion that they still have to work just as hard for a win.
When it started to go a bit pear shaped on Friday there seemed to me the impression that it was all a bit hard to maintain the effort.
A smart committed side might not have won, or even got close....but they could surely have lessened the size of the defeat.
The Hawks are a classic example of what to do when things are not going your way at half time in a footy match. The approach to the work rate. Ignore their skills.
Do we attribute the loss of Daisy's leadership to the blow-out and cue in rack?
Yes hasn't been in rampant form, but I reckon players like him can help drive a teams endeavour when it starts to get flat.
Daisy would have been exposed just like every other player. I am yet to see any acts of leadership that stand out from him (ie Murphy running back to take mark, Gibbs kicking big goals late in games, Carrazzo turning the game vs Selwood). What he is doing behind closed doors I can't judge him on but going by his form this year he would have been swallowed up and spat out.
Maybe, maybe not.
I know you are not a fan, but I think he has given us more value than you do.
I think Thomas could have a bigger impact in helping us keep our structures and also the workrate. Stuff like that can be infectious where everyone lifts the workrate and pressure accordingly because there is someone helping.
Personally, I think football is a team game, one average player does not make the difference in a 100+ point hiding. Of course you can always cling to the possibility of that happening which is pretty much what your postings and theories rely on so that's fine, we're all entitled to an opinion. ;)
Personally, I think football is a team game, one average player does not make the difference in a 100+ point hiding. Of course you can always cling to the possibility of that happening which is pretty much what your postings and theories rely on so that's fine, we're all entitled to an opinion. ;)
Yes, it is a team game, but it is a team game that relies heavily, very heavily, on leadership. Effective on-field leadership.
Personally, I think football is a team game, one average player does not make the difference in a 100+ point hiding. Of course you can always cling to the possibility of that happening which is pretty much what your postings and theories rely on so that's fine, we're all entitled to an opinion. ;)
Yes, it is a team game, but it is a team game that relies heavily, very heavily, on leadership. Effective on-field leadership.
For sure Baggers but from my perspective, at least with regards to onfield performance, our best leaders were out there and we got spanked. Pretty sure Daisy was out there when the Scum belted us too wasn't he as well as the loss to Melbourne? To suggest that he would have made the difference is drawing an extremely long bow. Not impossible as I said but highly improbable. I would say we've really picked up since Judd and Carrazzo have returned and Murphy has stepped up. Judd and Carrazzo were very poor and Murphy was poor until he went off. That was the issue IMO.
Personally, I think football is a team game, one average player does not make the difference in a 100+ point hiding. Of course you can always cling to the possibility of that happening which is pretty much what your postings and theories rely on so that's fine, we're all entitled to an opinion. ;)
On field leaders dont just inspire via acts. They actually "direct traffic" by getting guys into positions to be dangerous or prevent a contest in a part of the ground that will result in a scoring opportunity and other times they put themselves in positions to "plug holes" in structures. This in turn prevents a 100+ point hiding and although I agree one player wont necessarily make a world of difference, sometimes they can be pretty important and prevent the message from blurring on field. People stay focussed on the task, people remain composed with the ball rather than blazing away to a long target (and consequentially a turnover) and people fly the flag.
The irony is, that we are actually agreeing again and you didnt even realise. How many below average performers would Daisy have been able to replace and impact that 100+ point loss?
No we are not agreeing at all. I do not believe Daisy would have made any difference. This is the comment of yours I was addressing. Your comments are based on nothing more than assumption and guesswork, which you're entitled to make, but I totally disagree.
I think you overrate his (Daisy's) leadership in order to justify his poor performances in comparison to his salary. You've mentioned before that you tend to go against what I think because I annoy you. I think you've gone down this method of assumption for that very reason. I think Daisy has been a big flop and you're looking for some way to contradict that.
@PI2C
Carrots, you are dead right when you say we have some good core talent on our list. Our top players are pretty good without doubt. The problem is that there is a a significant amount of daylight between them and the rest of the group. That's where our problems lie IMO. It's all very well having good leadership, in fact it's essential, but if your foot soldiers are are not up to it then it makes it very difficult to achieve the desired level of team performance consistently.
Also, leaders are only human too and if they can't get the troops to perform well, then they will also have their off days.
The leadership argument makes no sense when you consider we have been flogged before, quite often, or put in miserable performances with Thomas in the squad. He was also evicted from the leadership group at Collingwood which says much about his leadership IMO.
Fact is if he wasn't a high price trade in and was with Carlton the last 2 years, he'd be making appearances on Sheik's sacked lists and most would be making a case to ship him off for a 2nd rounder.
Personally, I think football is a team game, one average player does not make the difference in a 100+ point hiding. Of course you can always cling to the possibility of that happening which is pretty much what your postings and theories rely on so that's fine, we're all entitled to an opinion. ;)
Yes, it is a team game, but it is a team game that relies heavily, very heavily, on leadership. Effective on-field leadership.
For sure Baggers but from my perspective, at least with regards to onfield performance, our best leaders were out there and we got spanked. Pretty sure Daisy was out there when the Scum belted us too wasn't he as well as the loss to Melbourne? To suggest that he would have made the difference is drawing an extremely long bow. Not impossible as I said but highly improbable. I would say we've really picked up since Judd and Carrazzo have returned and Murphy has stepped up. Judd and Carrazzo were very poor and Murphy was poor until he went off. That was the issue IMO.
A difference, not
THE difference.
It just seems that every time we start to think "we've turned the corner", the players think they've "turned the corner" and (call it what you like)...."get ahead of themselves" ...and lose that notion that they still have to work just as hard for a win.
When it started to go a bit pear shaped on Friday there seemed to me the impression that it was all a bit hard to maintain the effort.
A smart committed side might not have won, or even got close....but they could surely have lessened the size of the defeat.
The Hawks are a classic example of what to do when things are not going your way at half time in a footy match. The approach to the work rate. Ignore their skills.
Absolutely. Did you see Roughead's tackle on Selwood in the third quarter? Fair, but full of intent and mongrel, and I'm sure no coincidence that it was effected upon Selwood. They are the sorts of "rallying cries" that we are sadly lacking. Who could have/would have done that for us? Robinson and Bell are willing but don't have the finesse.
One or two leaders can make a difference to the whole team. Kernahan and Williams didn't play in our two losses in 1995. Brazil's defence was in tatters without Thiago Silva against Germany. We had a lot of experience missing on Friday night and Port played as good as any side I've seen this year.
A difference, not THE difference.
Fair enough, once again I refer you to the Scum and Melbourne games. I disagree he would have made neither 'a' or 'the' difference.
One or two leaders can make a difference to the whole team. Kernahan and Williams didn't play in our two losses in 1995. Brazil's defence was in tatters without Thiago Silva against Germany. We had a lot of experience missing on Friday night and Port played as good as any side I've seen this year.
Yep I agree, but if this is in reference to the Daisy comment you are way off the mark putting his assumed leadership in the Sticks/Williams bracket. In fact I wouldn't even put Williams in the Sticks bracket TBH.
The leadership argument makes no sense when you consider we have been flogged before, quite often, or put in miserable performances with Thomas in the squad. He was also evicted from the leadership group at Collingwood which says much about his leadership IMO.
Fact is if he wasn't a high price trade in and was with Carlton the last 2 years, he'd be making appearances on Sheik's sacked lists and most would be making a case to ship him off for a 2nd rounder.
Anyone still arguing the toss just needs to read this post. The only thing I'd change is that I'm not sure he'd fetch a second rounder.
No we are not agreeing at all. I do not believe Daisy would have made any difference. This is the comment of yours I was addressing. Your comments are based on nothing more than assumption and guesswork, which you're entitled to make, but I totally disagree.
I think you overrate his (Daisy's) leadership in order to justify his poor performances in comparison to his salary. You've mentioned before that you tend to go against what I think because I annoy you. I think you've gone down this method of assumption for that very reason. I think Daisy has been a big flop and you're looking for some way to contradict that.
Have I?
Not at all. I dont bother with personal gripes, life is too short. I think maybe your projecting your stance onto me.
Im just trying to make sense of how we go from matching it with Freo and Geelong, to copping an absolute shellacking against Port Adelaide with the only notable absentees being Ellard, Armfield and Thomas.
Is Thomas a factor or not? you think no, I think perhaps, and asked the question. We have seen varying degrees of answers, the reality is that Johnson or Holman out and Thomas in, (average or at his better performances) is an improvement and a difference. Im under no illusions as to what would have occurred, Port played manic finals football and took us to the cleaners. Like has been stated, we had few stand up, and even one of our better guys (Gibbs) you have mentioned failed to put in the expected effort early on. Port played the type of football that our team has really failed to compete with in the past, and looking at the Hawks vs Geelong game on saturday night, I would say Hawthorn went to that level in the second half, and absolutely pantsed the Cats which somewhat explains away our increased ability to compete over the past few weeks.
If we dont hypothesize, then we wont ever see what's right or whats not. Or we can just all agree, insert lines such as we were woeful, and then can cry about it. If thats your notion of a forum, Ill have no part of it. FYI, Ive noticed a trend. Every time we have a bad beat, you get all aggressive at people on the forum. All well and good, have your vent, but there is no need to resort to this stuff. I understand you see no value in Thomas.
At the end of the day, we will agree to disagree and thats all there is. Some will side with you, others wont, and most wont care because we got smacked. The one thing that I know is that until we start winning anything significant, we can discuss it all till christmas but it wont change our fortunes any.
Amen to that Thry, but you did say I annoy you. :P
One or two leaders can make a difference to the whole team. Kernahan and Williams didn't play in our two losses in 1995. Brazil's defence was in tatters without Thiago Silva against Germany. We had a lot of experience missing on Friday night and Port played as good as any side I've seen this year.
Did they miss the leadership or the talent. Thry is trying to say his presence (attitude, tackling, chasing, instructing) was a contributing factor. I don't buy that argument and I doubt we'd see a scoreline differen ce if Thomas played.
Thomas has to deliver what Goddard does for Essendon.......most of us thought Essendon paid overs but as its turned out he is delivering what EFC paid for and will probably be AA after winning their B and F last season. He has given leadership and been a factor in making the finals as a player.
Thomas has delivered much less and while I hear some you saying his ongoing ankle problems have seen him have a slow start to the year etc etc..its no excuse we knew what we were buying and he was passed fit to play ...for 700k a year his first year has been a failure and we have been short changed if you use Goddard as a yardstick...
On the field I have not seen any real leadership being offered and while I dont know what he offers off the track I'm seeing value in this part of game.
One or two leaders can make a difference to the whole team. Kernahan and Williams didn't play in our two losses in 1995. Brazil's defence was in tatters without Thiago Silva against Germany. We had a lot of experience missing on Friday night and Port played as good as any side I've seen this year.
Did they miss the leadership or the talent. Thry is trying to say his presence (attitude, tackling, chasing, instructing) was a contributing factor. I don't buy that argument and I doubt we'd see a scoreline differen ce if Thomas played.
They missed the leadership.
Silva as an individual is a good defender, but he is not a 9 goal wall. What his absence resulted in was a lack of structure throughout the defense and midfield. This resulted in players not working together for the common good, lines in tatters and Germany rather than having to break the opposition lines, just had to run through open spaces as Brazil had done this for them. His absence was not the sole reason this occurred. A lack of attacking Lynchpin did not aid the situation as there was no one there to "straighten" then up at the Centre Forward position. As a result, the moment the rest of the structure breaks down, you end up with only one line that might have been doing its job. Result, space and time for Germany to exploit, and as we have seen, the Germans are currently playing some of the best football and took full advantage.
One player can make a massive difference depending on what they bring to the team. Whilst Daisy is no backline general, he is one player who knows what Malthouse wants from his team, and will help at least two others play to the correct structure. Minus Daisy, its not just one that wouldnt have been doing what was expected, it was multiple. Thats where I see the difference between an honourable loss, and a 100 point loss.
Now, I might be overating structures, Daisy or what not, but there is one code I know a lot about and thats the round ball code, and I can argue quite happily that Germany wouldnt have scored 9 vs Brazil had Silva played. They still probably would have won, but it would have been more of a contest rather than a team open its legs and cop that many in a row.
A difference, not THE difference.
Fair enough, once again I refer you to the Scum and Melbourne games. I disagree he would have made neither 'a' or 'the' difference.
Of course he would have made
A difference, any change does... on logic alone.
Also, we should not underestimate the losses of Duigan and Scotland in terms of leadership around the place (not THE difference but certainly a factor to be considered). In terms of leadership our boys are still growing and seem to be growing in the right direction. Important to step back and see the bigger picture of the past 4-6 weeks - much more to be positive about than negative. Every media expert I have heard has commented that we have improved on last year. Yes, the effort last Friday night was dreadful but it was unusual in terms of how we have been this year... what it did do is open lots of wounds that we all still have for where this club has been for the past 10+ years.
But as a proven leader Silva>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Thomas.
Of course he would have made A difference, any change does... on logic alone.
You're taking my comment out of it's context now Baggers. The discussion was whether he would have made a difference in terms of stopping the opposition's dominance. I say he wouldn't have.
@Carrots. Are you causing trouble again?
@Thry if after 2 years the players don't know what Mick wants we are in deep poo.
Our structures fall apart pretty badly even when Daisy is there so I don't know what that says about his leadership
A difference, not THE difference.
Fair enough, once again I refer you to the Scum and Melbourne games. I disagree he would have made neither 'a' or 'the' difference.
Of course he would have made A difference, any change does... on logic alone.
Also, we should not underestimate the losses of Duigan and Scotland in terms of leadership around the place (not THE difference but certainly a factor to be considered). In terms of leadership our boys are still growing and seem to be growing in the right direction. Important to step back and see the bigger picture of the past 4-6 weeks - much more to be positive about than negative. Every media expert I have heard has commented that we have improved on last year. Yes, the effort last Friday night was dreadful but it was unusual in terms of how we have been this year... what it did do is open lots of wounds that we all still have for where this club has been for the past 10+ years.
The thing is though that it wasn't unusual in terms of the "year as a whole"
The 4-6 weeks before the loss were the "unusual" ones...but it should not be just wiped out by that debacle on Friday night, just as the season should not be judged o the first 4-6 weeks.
The biggest mistake that we can make is to accept last Friday as an aberration.
It highlights that we are probably the most wildly inconsistent side going around.
Lots and lots yet to proven in terms of coaching, playing personnel and leadership
in 2013 we finished with 11 wins and a percentage of 106.7%
We scored 2125 for and had 1992 kicked against us.
With one game to go we have 7 wins and a percentage of 89.3%
We've scored 1801 for and had 2017 kicked against us
The experts might think we've improved (based mostly on the last 5 weeks) but if we keep "improving" at this rate we'll go out backwards.
@Lods
Agree. What it shows is that terrible lapses and 100+ point defeats are still part of our DNA.
As I've posted before, we do have some fine players, just not enough of them and too many of the mistake-ridden mediocrities. When our good guys have an off game we get smashed - it's pretty simple really. Answer, we need more of the better players to bridge the chasm that currently exists between best and worst, i.e. a lot more quality depth.
Yep
I think we all accept that the 4-6 weeks before last Friday showed a big improvement on the early part of the year....but have we improved as a team in 2014?
Not sure we can say that.
That's not to say it's all doom and gloom but we need to see more of the previous 4-6 weeks going forward..... and a lot less of Friday night.
Of course he would have made A difference, any change does... on logic alone.
You're taking my comment out of it's context now Baggers. The discussion was whether he would have made a difference in terms of stopping the opposition's dominance. I say he wouldn't have.
No out of context, you clearly stated that you didn't think he would make 'the' difference, as I highlighted for you. It's your absolutism that is being doubted or questioned here. There would not have been any one player who would have made 'the' difference in terms of turning around the result. I repeat, I believe Daisy would have made 'a' difference. Any experienced player would have done so in respect to one of the kids he would have replaced. Even Jammo admitted on radio that there was a (not the) team focus on directing the kids... with Daisy out there (or Murph for the whole game, or Hendo, or Walks etc) we would have had one more 'director/leader' and one fewer 'directees/kids' which must impact on the team dynamic to some degree. I do not know how you can be so absolute in your negative assessment of Daisy. Now whether his impact would have been 2% or 8% or greater none of us can ever know. So we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Fair enough baggers, my absoluteness comes from his performances this year. I did say IMO and I also mentioned that it was drawing a very long bow but still a possibility. FTR, it was you that used the words absolutely and irrefutably. ;)
@lods
Basically with a fit and firing list next year I see any repeat of the previous 4 weeks efforts on a consistent basis sees us challenging for a top four spot. Call me optimistic but that's how I see it.
Fair enough baggers, my absoluteness comes from his performances this year. I did say IMO and I also mentioned that it was drawing a very long bow but still a possibility. FTR, it was you that used the words absolutely and irrefutably. ;)
@lods
Basically with a fit and firing list next year I see any repeat of the previous 4 weeks efforts on a consistent basis sees us challenging for a top four spot. Call me optimistic but that's how I see it.
One win and four losses over the last 4 weeks.
That won't get us top 4 :P :D
I understand what you're saying, and I agree.
If we can maintain it there's no reason we can't match it with the top sides.
The problem for me is that there remains such a huge gap between our best and worst.
Given the quality of the opposition we've played well against recently I don't see that as a skill issue... but rather an application issue.
I'm not convinced we've come to grips with that.... and it may well be that the good form of the previous four weeks has masked these problems.
It was always a danger.
I still have no idea where we are,
We're certainly not going to find out this season.
Looking forward to 2015 ;)
......................
I still have no idea where we are,
We're certainly not going to find out this season.
Looking forward to 2015 ;)
Yep, the uncertainty has been messing with my head most of the season. Nigh on impossible for me to get a read on where we're at.
@Thry if after 2 years the players don't know what Mick wants we are in deep poo.
Our structures fall apart pretty badly even when Daisy is there so I don't know what that says about his leadership
It's not that they don't know, it's a mixed bag. Between Shehan, Holman, Johnson we have first year players who all were starting 22. Then we have a player like Lucas who is deer in the headlights at the best of times. Combine that with Tom Bell who shows glimpses of good mixed with poor decision making like trying to run through every tackle, and add the manic attack on the footy that Port brought and you have players stop thinking about what they need to do to play their role, and revert to see ball get ball football rather than playing to their structures.
It wouldn't have helped any that we had blokes get a game by default rather than win a game.
[
I still have no idea where we are,
We're certainly not going to find out this season.
Looking forward to 2015 ;)
Don't know or won't accept? ;)
Anyone else put a lot of stock in the performance in the last game of the year? Put up a strong showing and play with desire and passionate that's a big plus for Mick IMO
[
I still have no idea where we are,
We're certainly not going to find out this season.
Looking forward to 2015 ;)
Don't know or won't accept? ;)
Seriously don't know :P :D
I'm very much a logical realist.
I never accepted we were as "bad" as some suggested at the start of the year given the interrupted pre-season and injuries.
By the same token I didn't agree that we were as "good" as some thought based on a purple patch during the weeks leading up to the Port game.
The truth lies somewhere in between........ but just where I have no idea
We have some good elements, and some class players....too few of course.
We have some good foot soldiers who just lack that bit of polish
Our leaders are a level below those at the power clubs.
and...
We have a mental problem that rivals Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde....worse in fact.
I don't know where we are.......but my concern is Mick has no idea either.
I'm pretty sure he didn't see that Port Adelaide bus that hit him on Friday night.
@Lods
I think you've hit on a good point there Lods. OK we've got injuries and a few newbies were playing on Fri, but that notwithstanding I think Mick is finding it to be quite a challenge and hasn't yet fully worked out where our players are at mentally. I think he was genuinely bemused by the player performances and was definitely struggling to explain. The best he could come up with was they were "tired" and we've got a lot of injuries.
I think they were tired due to the previous week and we did have a lot of injuries though. Obviously that's not good enough though, no 100+ belting is good enough.
One the bright side our ruckmen got 31 possessions between them. Be along time since that's happened.