Carlton Supporters Club

Vent away.

Just a disaster. No solutions at the club either.

Eddie laughing his head. He is not a silly man.

There are some players we could build a team around but we're cooked without Judd. No leadership outside of Judd in reality and then it's daylight.

I didn't think it could get any worse.  I was wrong.

I could coach this side better, and my invalid grandmother would play for the jumper with more heart.

I am more depressed after watching this game than any game I have watched in the last 2 years. I have never seen our club give less a crap about their coach and supporters. Not much to be positive about in this game, than to say Mick's career must be quickly coming to an end. We are officially tanking again.

Sack the coach and appoint who? I just don't know.

I am more depressed after watching this game than any game I have watched in the last 2 years. I have never seen our club give less a crap about their coach and supporters. Not much to be positive about in this game, than to say Mick's career must be quickly coming to an end. We are officially tanking again.

As I said in game thread, I haven't seen this since the days of Pagan.

Vent away.

It's too late for that, we need cold hard action!

Judd deserves a knighthood for what he's had to put up with at Carlton. Whatever we paid him it wasn't enough.

I am more depressed after watching this game than any game I have watched in the last 2 years. I have never seen our club give less a crap about their coach and supporters. Not much to be positive about in this game, than to say Mick's career must be quickly coming to an end. We are officially tanking again.

My thoughts as well.

What a joke

Just start with a decent gameplan and go from there....  start with a forward structure and some crumbing options.  Keep an option forward of the kicker at all times.  Make non-stop, fast direct ball movement a priority.  Make pressuring the ball carrier when not in possession a non negotiable.   Drop any non committed types.  I don't give a rats toss if they're spuds, as long as they obey team rules and do their roles effectively.

Just feel like opening another bottle and keep on going although I know all that will happen is tomorrow I will have a headache the the reality of where we are will still be there. Just a disaster and no solutions in sight.

It's not like there's some wonder kid sitting on the sidelines or master player to come back - there's no Kouta waiting in the wings nor gun forward in the two's. Shocking performance.

Gutted. I don't post just enjoy reading what you guys have to say but this the most  soulless effort I have seen from a navy blue outfit in 40 years.
When your 8 year old son  says were rubbish you really don't have much to come back with.

As I said in game thread, I haven't seen this since the days of Pagan.

Tonight "The Judge" has learned why Presidents don't use the "R" word. Flubbo used an interview with our naive Pres to kill off our 2015, kill what little hope the coach had, and this will be the norm for the remained of this season!

What I cannot understand, is how the feck can someone like The Judge who says something so stupid in the media can make so much money?

Judd may as well retire now, he'll have zero support for the rest of 2015! He looks a broken man in the rooms!

I have tried my best to stay positive and keep the faith, but tonight broke my spirits. The entire club needs to be gutted. I'm done wasting time and money on them. Call me Carlton when you work as hard for your wages as I do for the money I give you. I've "trusted" the powers at this mob for 10 years and we've been delivered nothing. On field is just a reflection of the entire shocking mess.
The players gave absolutely not one f*ck tonight. FOR SHAME CARLTON!!!!!!

This has the same feel as the night we got crucified by the Hawks by 100+ points under Den Den. He wasn' t with us for long after that game. Tonight, another coach's fate is maybe sealed.

This has the same feel as the night we got crucified by the Hawks by 100+ points under Den Den. He wasn' t with us for long after that game. Tonight, another coach's fate is maybe sealed.

We made a grave mistake sacking Pagan and we've never recovered from it.

You know the thing that really got me more than the shambolic performance was how many young players the pies had with less than 20 games experience. We got are ass kicked by players that were more enthusiastic and committed and the future looks dire. If I was Cripps I'd leave. Imagine watching this all year and then Judd buggers off - what would you do?

This has the same feel as the night we got crucified by the Hawks by 100+ points under Den Den. He wasn' t with us for long after that game. Tonight, another coach's fate is maybe sealed.

Definitely feels like the Den Den days are back again

I left at 3/4 time without hesitation.....and even then I probably stayed too long.

Feck 'em all......

We made a grave mistake sacking Pagan and we've never recovered from it.

:))

I am totally gutted, and a little drunk, by this year.
Cripps has been the only real shining light.
I thought Murph worked hard in the first half tonight.

I have a 3 year old who in a year or two is going to take real interest in footy. At the moment he wears his little blues guernsey and shouts "C'mon Blues! We need this one!"
If he decides he doesn't want to support Carlton I can't, in good conscious, make/allow him to. It would kill me if he didn't though.

I'm absolutely lost right now.

Yeah I can't argue with the comparisons with Dennis Pagan. Unfortunately all too true.

Definitely feels like the Den Den days are back again

Days our future passed!

Wow don't know what to say..... I hope this is ground zero.  Our great club is totally a basket case at the moment.  No leadership, no grit and no endeavour.  I hope our club can survive this period as our memberships will be totally down the next few years....

I just can't believe on the big stage on  a Friday night Against our arch enemy and we serve up this  :( :(

Just a Disgrace.....weak as pi$$

Firstly, I'd like to give kudos to Rowe, Touhy, Simmo, Docherty, Judd, Murph and especially Armfield for trying!!!!!

Thats 7 players out of 22 who had a crack. Thats woeful and our biggest problem. Too little from too few.
The pies had 3 players who didnt have double figure stats FFS. That is team footy as opposed to our crap. 

For mine, I'd like to send a message to the group by dropping Walker and Gibbs. Gibbs may as well have had a black and white jumper on and walker was mr invisible for the night.

Warnock tried and probably played his best game for us in the end. Even managed to bend down and pick up the ball too!! Was crape in 1st half but busted his butt in 2nd half. decision to play him ahead of Cas as still a mistake IMO.

We were deplorable. I dont know where to go from here. What has changed from last year for us to get worse?????

Everyone seems to be calling for Mick to go but at the same time are naming at least half the team as spuds! No coach can make class players from spuds.  Improve them a little, but not make them champions.  Reverse the coaches for this game and Mick would win as easily and Bucks lose as badly.  What we would give to give to have their top 10?   And them our bottom 10.  It is our damn recruiting that is to blame.
 

If he decides he doesn't want to support Carlton I can't, in good conscious, make/allow him to. It would kill me if he didn't though.

I'm absolutely lost right now.

You're right, you can't force him to support this rabble, we are the new Fitzroy we could be gone within a decade!

Put the bulldozer through the place...starting with the board.
We need a complete break from the previous poisonous decade.

It's pretty obvious which of the players are putting in...problem is many of those are the ones with lesser talent.
There are a few blokes there who need to have a good hard look at themselves.

Firstly, I'd like to give kudos to Rowe, Touhy, Simmo, Docherty, Judd, Murph and especially Armfield for trying!!!!!

Thats 7 players out of 22 who had a crack. Thats woeful and our biggest problem. Too little from too few.
The pies had 3 players who didnt have double figure stats FFS. That is team footy as opposed to our crap. 

For mine, I'd like to send a message to the group by dropping Walker and Gibbs. Gibbs may as well have had a black and white jumper on and walker was mr invisible for the night.

Warnock tried and probably played his best game for us in the end. Even managed to bend down and pick up the ball too!! Was crape in 1st half but busted his butt in 2nd half. decision to play him ahead of Cas as still a mistake IMO.

We were deplorable. I dont know where to go from here. What has changed from last year for us to get worse?????

Fair summary.

I am totally gutted, and a little drunk, by this year.
Cripps has been the only real shining light.
I thought Murph worked hard in the first half tonight.

I have a 3 year old who in a year or two is going to take real interest in footy. At the moment he wears his little blues guernsey and shouts "C'mon Blues! We need this one!"
If he decides he doesn't want to support Carlton I can't, in good conscious, make/allow him to. It would kill me if he didn't though.

I'm absolutely lost right now.

Meddy, I'm in the same boat.  Got a four year old who loves flying the flag and knows who the players are.  Stayed up with me to watch the first quarter tonight.  Thank God that's all he saw.  I'm taking him to his first game next week and if I hadn't already bought the tickets I'd seriously reconsider.  I was brought in the early 80s when we were a team that a six or seven year old could be proud of.  Not anymore.

I'm gutted.

We made a grave mistake sacking Pagan and we've never recovered from it.

That's where our problems started. He lost the players and the players lost their "culture"

Been no good since Parko left bar the time Ratts did something with us and got us some final footy. He played us to our strengths.

Firstly, I'd like to give kudos to Rowe, Touhy, Simmo, Docherty, Judd, Murph and especially Armfield for trying!!!!!

Thats 7 players out of 22 who had a crack. Thats woeful and our biggest problem. Too little from too few.
The pies had 3 players who didnt have double figure stats FFS. That is team footy as opposed to our crap. 

For mine, I'd like to send a message to the group by dropping Walker and Gibbs. Gibbs may as well have had a black and white jumper on and walker was mr invisible for the night.

Warnock tried and probably played his best game for us in the end. Even managed to bend down and pick up the ball too!! Was crape in 1st half but busted his butt in 2nd half. decision to play him ahead of Cas as still a mistake IMO.

We were deplorable. I dont know where to go from here. What has changed from last year for us to get worse?????

+2

Firstly, I'd like to give kudos to Rowe, Touhy, Simmo, Docherty, Judd, Murph and especially Armfield for trying!!!!!

Thats 7 players out of 22 who had a crack. Thats woeful and our biggest problem. Too little from too few.
The pies had 3 players who didnt have double figure stats FFS. That is team footy as opposed to our crap. 

For mine, I'd like to send a message to the group by dropping Walker and Gibbs. Gibbs may as well have had a black and white jumper on and walker was mr invisible for the night.

Warnock tried and probably played his best game for us in the end. Even managed to bend down and pick up the ball too!! Was crape in 1st half but busted his butt in 2nd half. decision to play him ahead of Cas as still a mistake IMO.

We were deplorable. I dont know where to go from here. What has changed from last year for us to get worse?????

You missed Cameron Wood too.

Sums it up, a bloke who was discarded and unwanted in the VFL was one of our better players tonight along with another discard who was playing in the Sanfl.

Surely the end is nigh for Mick. There is no system in our play, the players lack confidence and desire to make the necessary effort. I feel so sorry for Chris Judd that he is playing in such an embarrassing team. He must be wishing he'd retired.

For those bagging Ratten, he got far more out of his players. He was very unlucky to be sacked after a season in which the team had an absolute 'horror run' with injuries. Furthermore, I'm really skeptical about Buttifant's ability to develop the running power and endurance of our players. Most of them just don't look like they can keep up with their opposition for most of a game.

At least all our boys will be tucked in bed at 11.

The entire coaching group should face the Board on Monday.

Just listened to a number of summaries and the consistent theme was that the CFC players do not seem to know what to do. So many 'experts' commented that our boys seem to be confused. Our playing group just cannot be that bad. I don't believe that for a second.

There will be a lot said and written about that performance tonight, especially considering the occasion. This is one humiliation that cannot be swept under the mat or explained away. This deplorable, spiritless exhibition was on the big Friday night stage for millions to witness.

Is the niceness embargo over for MM?

Will Mark Stevens have a go tonight or wait to do him cold!

The entire coaching group should face the Board on Monday.

...and after that the board should face the members.
Someone start a ticket and give us an alternative.

Did anyone hear Carey switch tact during his post game summary. McAvaney was saying we were slow to decide what to do and kept turning it over. Then Carey started to say it's because of the way we set up then quickly got the reminder to switch focus!

I don't know what that was like on TV but that was beyond a joke at the ground. Zero intensity not a sherick of structure. We didn't have a single cohesive passage of play. Not a single one! How is that possible? I was actually embarrassed for Mick having to go through a guard of honour involving our players.

Meddy, I'm in the same boat.  Got a four year old who loves flying the flag and knows who the players are.  Stayed up with me to watch the first quarter tonight.  Thank God that's all he saw.  I'm taking him to his first game next week and if I hadn't already bought the tickets I'd seriously reconsider.  I was brought in the early 80s when we were a team that a six or seven year old could be proud of.  Not anymore.

I'm gutted.

I also have a four year old, And he already loves Essendon because of his Nana.  No wonder with our heartless efforts...it's so disheartening

  It is our damn recruiting that is to blame.

It sure is, and trading pick 7 last year will continue our proud tradition as the worst recruiting club in the AFL.

I also have a four year old, And he already loves Essendon because of his Nana.  No wonder with our heartless efforts...it's so disheartening

Sorry mate but you have to support him, he might have to pick a new team before the seasons out though!

Time to redo the schedule and take all Friday night games off of us.

Prime time on fta tv is wasted on us.

I wonder what sort of trade value Gibbs will get us......he's done.

I know who's ahead....way ahead on the Jaksch/Whiley trade......and it ain't us. I don't think either of them made one positive, meaningful contribution. Fecking useless the pair of them & I don't care how harsh that is.

Meddy, I'm in the same boat.  Got a four year old who loves flying the flag and knows who the players are.  Stayed up with me to watch the first quarter tonight.  Thank God that's all he saw.  I'm taking him to his first game next week and if I hadn't already bought the tickets I'd seriously reconsider.  I was brought in the early 80s when we were a team that a six or seven year old could be proud of.  Not anymore.

I'm gutted.

I'm in tassie and coming over for the brisbane game and considered bringing my boy but he's a bit too you to focus yet and just copies ame. I hope our club can turn around so he wants to support us when the time comes.
I'm grew up in the 90s and have only watched one winng GF which was '95, although my old man would argue I sat with him and wathed '87 as a 1 year old, but I still know how gran our clubs history is. I just hope it's not all lost on the next generation.

Don't worry guys, we will eventually come good... Just won't be in our life time ::)

I also have a four year old, And he already loves Essendon because of his Nana.  No wonder with our heartless efforts...it's so disheartening

Luckily,  or unluckily, my whole family is dyed in the wool navy blue. Ny dad tells stories about how one eyed his old man was but apparently I'm worse!
So the only outside influence on my little fella will be the blues themselves.

Andrew Walker - natural right-footer, decides to pass the ball, under no pressure, with his left - result: turnover, goal to Collingwood. Get the feck out of my Club you belligerent feckwit.

I wonder what sort of trade value Gibbs will get us......he's done.

I know who's ahead....way ahead on the Jaksch/Whiley trade......and it ain't us. I don't think either of them made one positive, meaningful contribution. Fecking useless the pair of them & I don't care how harsh that is.

We'll give those young blokes some time. Reckon they'll be ok. It's up to the older blokes to lead the way. They're the leaders supposedly.

Andrew Walker - natural right-footer, decides to pass the ball, under no pressure, with his left - result: turnover, goal to Collingwood. Get the feck out of my Club you belligerent feckwit.

Signed to the end of 2017 I think.

Andrew Walker - natural right-footer, decides to pass the ball, under no pressure, with his left - result: turnover, goal to Collingwood. Get the feck out of my Club you belligerent feckwit.

Mark Murphy- captain of the club and highest paid player, hurt his  finger early and had no impact on the match.

i think we have 16 players who were taken in the first round of the draft.

What does that say to me - the players are not playing anywhere near their ability. They looked (very) slow, disinterested and lost tonight. And the Pies aren't a quick team.

No leadership (again). No game plan seemingly.

The Pies are not that good - disciplined yes, team orientated yes. But really. We are worse than very bad.

1. Malthouse must go. Put Laidley in charge;
2. Murphy must step down (but who fills that void).

God, I don't know.

Mark Murphy- captain of the club and highest paid player, hurt his  finger early and had no impact on the match.

Lachie Henderson - comes out with a calf heavily strapped, labours through the warm-up, does not touch the ball for the 2.5 quarters he played before 'apparently' doing a hammy.

Anyone see Buckley try to create run out of defence but no one ran with him?

We'll give those young blokes some time. Reckon they'll be ok.....

I knew someone would trot out that old chestnut......predicted that exact response to my mates on the trip home. Boring.........they both look like absolute shet to me.

Anyone see Buckley try to create run out of defence but no one ran with him?

All I saw was Buckley run, panic, turn ball over......and over and over and over and over.....you get the idea.....

i think we have 16 players who were taken in the first round of the draft.

What does that say to me - the players are not playing anywhere near their ability. They looked (very) slow, disinterested and lost tonight. And the Pies aren't a quick team.

No leadership (again). No game plan seemingly.

The Pies are not that good - disciplined yes, team orientated yes. But really. We are worse than very bad.

1. Malthouse must go. Put Laidley in charge;
2. Murphy must step down (but who fills that void).

God, I don't know.

Yep the Pies are not that good but we had zero idea of what they were doing most of the night...Oxley ran around on his own like McIntosh did for the. Richmond game.
The Pies game plan was the same they used for the Essendon game...it was the ex Hawks Ben Dixon who implied we just dont put enough time into scouting opposing teams and come
into games underprepared with our tactics and have no Plan B.

All I saw was Buckley run, panic, turn ball over......and over and over and over and over.....you get the idea.....

x 2 Buckley has gone backwards....I would have swapped him forward and taken Ellard off who was useless all night and is a passenger.

All I saw was Buckley run, panic, turn ball over......and over and over and over and over.....you get the idea.....

He was terrible but he clearly tried to create some run early And was given no support.

He was terrible but he clearly tried to create some run early And was given no support.

But don't simply just run into tackles or handball to an opponent....how bout putting your boot through the bloody thing, it's not friggin' rocket science. He doesn't deserve the cop-out you're giving him.

Anyone see Buckley try to create run out of defence but no one ran with him?

Didn't see anyone run all night.

I called him a spud in the match thread. No cop out here. Im talking more about our players not running, they just don't work hard.

Collingwood are not that good you say, but you know what they are better than us by the lenth of the Flemington staright.  You know why, the have kids, and plenty of them and kids that can play. 

We have players nearing the end. Walker, Simmo, Carazzo, Judd, and plenty of list cloggers (still). Armfield, Ellard, Curnow, Warnock. 

Players past their best. Jamo. 

Leaders who dont stand up.  Gibbs and Murphy.

Youngsters who will not develop whilst leadership group does jack crape.

We need to build around the future players that we do have.  Menzel, Cripps, Docherty,  Buckley, JK.

After tonight, I cannot see the light at the end of the tunnel.  We have just entered that tunnel and have a long way to go.

Come trade time,  put everyone with currency on the market. Gibbs, Murphy, Henderson, Yarran, Kruezer.  See if anyone bites. 

If two of the above go then so be it. 

In desperate need of a complete rebuild of the club - the board and its governance structure, the coaches and trainers.
We just seem to always be playing catch up every year - recruiting other team's fitness guru's, their coaches and administrators. And in the end we still to be churning out players that don't seem as strong, have lower fitness levels, poor skills and less hunger for the game. Above all, we are just tactically behind the 8 ball and seem to be sticking to a game plan and team structures that just aren't working every week.
We need to bite the bullet and rebuild off the ground well before we get another player in the door.
Big ask when you're only 5 weeks into a season too.

i think we have 16 players who were taken in the first round of the draft.

What does that say to me - the players are not playing anywhere near their ability. They looked (very) slow, disinterested and lost tonight. And the Pies aren't a quick team.

No leadership (again). No game plan seemingly.

The Pies are not that good - disciplined yes, team orientated yes. But really. We are worse than very bad.

I'm really conflicted about this. Logic tells me we have 20+ players who've reached the pinnacle in their chosen sport. They simply can't be that bad. And yet the standard tonight was just pathetic.  So, is it the coach? Maybe. I don't know. 

The commentators gave me the complete sh*ts going on about how impressive the Pies were. Couple of times I saw them panic a little when one of those big, navy blue witches hats seemed to come to life and lunge at them. 

Glad I went to Wellington last weekend, possibly the only game I'll see them win all year.....

Coach doesn't have the players. On such a big occasion to dish that up for him implies so. It only means one course of action really. Question is when?

Judd deserves a knighthood for what he's had to put up with at Carlton. Whatever we paid him it wasn't enough.

Spot on!

I called him a spud in the match thread. No cop out here. Im talking more about our players not running, they just don't work hard.

Tonight was a new low. Don't know if you were at the game but it was frightening - a few players aside.

Coach doesn't have the players. On such a big occasion to dish that up for him implies so. It only means one course of action really. Question is when?

Well Mick sure didn't look to pleased with them and their efforts in the coaches box in the dying minutes of the game.

Coach doesn't have the players. On such a big occasion to dish that up for him implies so. It only means one course of action really. Question is when?

This^^^^^

 Liam Jones OMG….what a joke….this guy was useless at the Dogs playing 2nds because he was a waste of space…can't kick won't chase..and drops 1/3 marks…we draft him and get all the hype that he's training the house down and he's awesome….faaark I'm sick of this pre season crape on dud recruits…..he is a complete spud

Nothing to do with the Coach.
Just a total lack of desire and ability.
Jesus could have coached them tonight and they probably would have done worse.

The player that sickened me the most, was Gibbs.

I felt like running out on the ground, grabbing him by that fkn stupid pony tail, and strangling him with it.

The only reason that I didn't do it, is because he's such a weak anal orifice, that he would have let me. And Gibbs aint worth doing hard time over.

There was a bit of play where a Collingwood player effected a spoil, the balls spills to Gibbs in the middle of the ground who is then tackled by the player who spoiled, about 10 minutes into the first. Gibbs cspills the ball, it is taken away (same player?) and Collingwood score a point.

I knew right then our only chance was if Collingwood fell asleep, bored  from our play or if the Hulkster grabbed a steel chair, took the field and started smashing Pies players.

You could almost see our players give it up...

Liam Jones OMG….what a joke….this guy was useless at the Dogs playing 2nds because he was a waste of space…can't kick won't chase..and drops 1/3 marks…we draft him and get all the hype that he's training the house down and he's awesome….faaark I'm sick of this pre season crape on dud recruits…..he is a complete spud

Jones makesa mockery of the culture argument.

WTF….Wood and Warnock in the same side…OMG and the Boult dropped….forward line was Ellard as our target after Hendo went down…..what a joke…didn't Walker kick 50+ 2-3 years back?…yet he plays back flank…




Is coaching that hard? Sheesh….build a goal to goal spine and work around it…I'm still gagging on Kane Lucas pick 9 soft outside shirker v pick 12 Daniel Talia All Australian CHB…makes me puke…thats massive incompetence on list management

Nothing to do with the Coach.
Just a total lack of desire and ability.
Jesus could have coached them tonight and they probably would have done worse.

The player that sickened me the most, was Gibbs.

I felt like running out on the ground, grabbing him by that fkn stupid pony tail, and strangling him with it.

The only reason that I didn't do it, is because he's such a weak anal orifice, that he would have let me. And Gibbs aint worth doing hard time over.

 ;D that's a bloody funny and accurate post

Whilst our players were limp, insipid and lethargic, SAME must be said for the Coaching - or lack thereof.

If the players have no f...g idea what they're supposed to be doing ie to counter the Pies rolling maul whose fault is that?!!

Buckley, a disgrace.
Gibbs, a worse disgrace.
Walker, did he play?
Jaksh went for a latte and didn't come back.
Henderson, injured calf in the last 5 minutes last week against the Saints, should not have played.
Whiley, was that the assistant coach out there? He probably should have been, he would have done a better job.
Ellard, just not up to it.
Jones, words fail me.
Bell, disappeared.
Warnock tapped to the opposition at least 13 times that i counted.

The good. Cripps gave everything, as did Judd and Simpson.

Rowe, tried as hard as I've ever seen him against an opponent who was spoon fed. Has been shocking for the previous 4 rounds, expect him to go back to that form from next week.

Docherty and Touhey tried hard. Curnow, was Curnow.

Armfield, in and out more than a bloke and his missus on their wedding night.

Murphy, ok till the finger popped, then he gave the finger to the supporters by going for a break.

The fact is, that this is a very limited team. However, we have had limited teams before, but at least they have given us something. Compare this effort to the one against Geelong last year, when we nearly won.

Put in Yarran, Menzel, a fully fit Kreuzer and Thomas, and I still reckon they would have been as week as they were tonight.

There is something radically wrong with these blokes.

Gutless, couldn't care less attitude, symptomatic of a club in total disarray.

What hurts even more, is that they don't give a shiiiite about us, the people who go to work every day, have bills and mortgages and struggle to buy a membership, so that those mongrels can get an average of $250,000 a year each.

Next week, I'm taking my grandson who is 5, to see his first game. Win lose or draw, that will be it for me.

Until I see a sustained effort for the rest of the year, yes, lose, but at least make us proud that you gave it your all, I will not go to a game, and I certainly will not pay the hundreds of dollars that it costs me to support that useless weak mob next year.

So Don't bother getting Juddy or anyone else to ring me next December.

Like you at the office in Carlton, who forgot to man the phones when people were trying to join, my phone will be unattended. >:( >:( >:( >:(

I mentioned Gibb's ponytail the other day……Looks like an LA Real Estate agent….. what a tool…stop taking the 700k and get a proper haircut and get your hands dirty like last year…when u gave us a proper year and won the B and F…………

Stand up!!!!

There is something radically wrong with these blokes.

Gutless, couldn't care less attitude, symptomatic of a club in total disarray.

What hurts even more, is that they don't give a shiiiite about us, the people who go to work every day, have bills and mortgages and struggle to buy a membership, so that those mongrels can get an average of $250,000 a year each.

This.!!!!

Where is the RESPECT - FOR SOMETHING, ANYTHING, SOMEONE, ANYONE.

Other Clubs have it with players as young as ours so it's not the Gen Y thing..... but it's pervasive and it's ugly and it's decimating this great club.

ps surely those blokes are ashamed about their performance tonight. Surely?

There is something radically wrong with these blokes.

Gutless, couldn't care less attitude, symptomatic of a club in total disarray.

What hurts even more, is that they don't give a shiiiite about us, the people who go to work every day, have bills and mortgages and struggle to buy a membership, so that those mongrels can get an average of $250,000 a year each.

Next week, I'm taking my grandson who is 5, to see his first game. Win lose or draw, that will be it for me.

Until I see a sustained effort for the rest of the year, yes, lose, but at least make us proud that you gave it your all, I will not go to a game, and I certainly will not pay the hundreds of dollars that it costs me to support that useless weak mob next year.

So Don't bother getting Juddy or anyone else to ring me next December.

Like you at the office in Carlton, who forgot to man the phones when people were trying to join, my phone will be unattended. >:( >:( >:( >:(

I only just joined today and cos I dont have losts of cash and live interstate I could only afford a 3 game membership. Normally I get the interstate membership, but the blues never come to tassie. That being said if we keep going the way we are I might get lucky jn the next couple of years.
Next week I'll be attending but will be the only game I can get to this year. I couldn't deal losing to the lions.
Mitch will attempt a tackle on Murph, Gibbs will have the opportunity to sheppard but wont wont to get too close to the action so will avoid the sheppard. Mitch will KO Murph in said tackle, kick 4 goals including the sealer and the blues lose by 4pts.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE someone put a strong ticket together and get rid of the Board, and all these rich f*ckers like the Pratts, Mathisons and the Doc, get the hell out of the Club and stay out.
I don't give a sh*t if we have to rattle tins to get back the money these knobs put in.
Im sick to bloody death of these a holes treating my Club like their play thing.
We are a joke, and they and the Board at large are at the root of the problem

PERHAPS the playing group and I use that term loosely are jet lagged after their big trip to New Zealand.

How Watson and Casboult can not get a game in our magnificent forward line leaves me almost speechless.

I hear Liam jones trains very well. ....."...............................

We have hit the hay and it's good night nurse... The list loaded one directional players and I am not sure we can stand up against any form of pressure.

A large broom is needed to sweep out our so called leaders at the club. Our senior player (other than Judd)  do not take it upon themselves to dig deep, do not get the best out of themselves, do not do the hard yards, do not bleed for the jumper, do not rally the troops, do not have a heart and worst of all do not know how to lead. I am not sure how the can honestly accept payment for their inept performances.

It is embarrassing to watch this sh1t week in , week out.   ::)

I saw the wooden spoon winners tonight, Saints would have done us with reiwoldt and montagna . If the club email me one more fluff piece about the players I think I will spew up. Please dont let us play on friday night again my whole weekend is stuffed again and the crap I will have to cop on monday at work again, just cant go on hoping. Hope that it would all click ended tonight won't or can't watch Blues again this year. A knife to the heart but at least I have one unlike the players.

Encapsulated what we all think... Us poor supporters hurt so this club can exist despite itself.

Hate to say it but many of us saw this train wreck coming, and that hurts... Powerless to do anything while this MC, players and club officials run our once respected club into the ground.... Given the keys to an Aston Martin and they ducked it.

Wooden spoon is a real prospect.
The judge and trigger didnt create this mess...
im ready to take on all ...and im not ducking for cover. .. >:(

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE someone put a strong ticket together and get rid of the Board, and all these rich f*ckers like the Pratts, Mathisons and the Doc, get the hell out of the Club and stay out.
I don't give a sh*t if we have to rattle tins to get back the money these knobs put in.
Im sick to bloody death of these a holes treating my Club like their play thing.
We are a joke, and they and the Board at large are at the root of the problem

This is something I've been banging on to my mates for a while now.

The club needs to get humble for mine, learn to appreciate every dollar. Easy money breeds laziness and arrogance.

Only after cutting those ties can this club build the right culture.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE someone put a strong ticket together and get rid of the Board, and all these rich f*ckers like the Pratts, Mathisons and the Doc, get the hell out of the Club and stay out.
I don't give a sh*t if we have to rattle tins to get back the money these knobs put in.
Im sick to bloody death of these a holes treating my Club like their play thing.
We are a joke, and they and the Board at large are at the root of the problem

Just sack the forking coach! Did wonders for Port, Adelaide and Footscray. Sometimes all it takes is a new direction to be provided. Murphy, Gibbs et al are not the bad.

Nothing to do with the Coach.
Just a total lack of desire and ability.
Jesus could have coached them tonight and they probably would have done worse.

The player that sickened me the most, was Gibbs.

I felt like running out on the ground, grabbing him by that fkn stupid pony tail, and strangling him with it.

The only reason that I didn't do it, is because he's such a weak anal orifice, that he would have let me. And Gibbs aint worth doing hard time over.

 :))

Shouldn't laugh really, we've officially arrived at Rock Bottom.

Just sack the forking coach! Did wonders for Port, Adelaide and Footscray. Sometimes all it takes is a new direction to be provided. Murphy, Gibbs et al are not the bad.

Yes they are. When it gets tough they give up

Yes they are. When it gets tough they give up

Agree, they provide no steel. They'd be alright as icing on the cake if we had enough steel in the side, but we don't.

This is something I've been banging on to my mates for a while now.

The club needs to get humble for mine, learn to appreciate every dollar. Easy money breeds laziness and arrogance.

Only after cutting those ties can this club build the right culture.

Taken straight from the Constitution of the Carlton Football Club:
2. Preliminary
Objects
2.1 The club exists for the benefit of its supporters and the community. It seeks to serve this purpose by undertaking the following:
(a) In playing the game of AFL football, to provide its supporters with enjoyment, engagement, fulfilment, and hope of success;

Fail.

Taken straight from the Constitution of the Carlton Football Club:
2. Preliminary
Objects
2.1 The club exists for the benefit of its supporters and the community. It seeks to serve this purpose by undertaking the following:
(a) In playing the game of AFL football, to provide its supporters with enjoyment, engagement, fulfilment, and hope of success;

Fail.

Wow, should take out the words 'and hope' making success mandatory.  ::)

Agree, they provide no steel. They'd be alright as icing on the cake if we had enough steel in the side, but we don't.

And they've had Juddy to show them the way for 8 years. I can't imagine there would be many better to show young players, as they were when he arrived, how its done. And still after all this time they have no guts, not balls and worse of all no heart.

I really feel for Juddy, so bad. He came to build something from the ground up. We got the wheels off the ground but nose dived right after take off and are now lower than when he arrived. It is truly sad that such a champion was wasted on our football club. This will be his last year I would imagine and it f-ing sucks that this is the group players that will see the great man off into retirement.

I feel so let down by this club. Years and years of empty promises.

Yes they are. When it gets tough they give up

Seeing Gibbs last night, it wasn't a toughness thing, he just wasn't interested.

And stop this 'feel for Juddy' shight are you guys serious? It's our club you should all be worried about.

And they've had Juddy to show them the way for 8 years. I can't imagine there would be many better to show young players, as they were when he arrived, how its done. And still after all this time they have no guts, not balls and worse of all no heart.

I really feel for Juddy, so bad. He came to build something from the ground up. We got the wheels off the ground but nose dived right after take off and are now lower than when he arrived. It is truly sad that such a champion was wasted on our football club. This will be his last year I would imagine and it f-ing sucks that this is the group players that will see the great man off into retirement.

I feel so let down by this club. Years and years of empty promises.

And to add to that M, it will make other playing and coaching talent very very reluctant to join us. Why would talented people want to risk their hard won reputations by joining an outfit where you will likely be run ragged and your reputation trashed. I felt sick watching a bewildered MM at his presser for the same reason.

Just sack the forking coach! Did wonders for Port, Adelaide and Footscray. Sometimes all it takes is a new direction to be provided. Murphy, Gibbs et al are not the bad.

Port also swept a broom through their board and Prez.
We are run like a business who has lost touch with reality.. We are no longer a great Club. We ve become mediocre.
You think a new coach will make Murph and Gibbs stop being softc*cks when Pagan, Rattten and MM couldn't ?

Mediocre is a step up from where we are Dom  :(

Port also swept a broom through their board and Prez.
We are run like a business who has lost touch with reality.. We are no longer a great Club. We ve become mediocre.
You think a new coach will make Murph and Gibbs stop being softc*cks when Pagan, Rattten and MM couldn't ?

Sack Mick. Set up INDEPENDENT panel to get a young innovative coach with a modern game plan.
Trade anyone out if it is to our advantage. But we must trade Gibbs. Anyone over 23 is up for trade.
Leadership should be overhauled. The current one is not leading by example and poisoning the kids. Break the cycle.
Play the kids at all costs.
Drop anyone not performing. No one is save.

I don't mind if we loose heavily playing kids and working on an entertaining innovative game plan. As long as we are continually improving.

At the moment we have coach killers playing with their pony tails mocking our hard earned, knowing they could play better but choosing not do. Imagine that.

Glad I couldn't go last night.

This is something I've been banging on to my mates for a while now.

The club needs to get humble for mine, learn to appreciate every dollar. Easy money breeds laziness and arrogance.

Only after cutting those ties can this club build the right culture.

Silly question, you don't need
Money to be on the board? Just voted in.?

I reckon I would be a chance. Who's with me?

Silly question, you don't need
Money to be on the board? Just voted in.?

I reckon I would be a chance. Who's with me?

From Perth?

Port also swept a broom through their board and Prez.
We are run like a business who has lost touch with reality.. We are no longer a great Club. We ve become mediocre.
You think a new coach will make Murph and Gibbs stop being softc*cks when Pagan, Rattten and MM couldn't ?

I thought Murph and Gibbs did alright under Pagan, well under Ratten, but have just regressed under Mick. Get this forkwit away from our list before the damage is beyond repair. And by all means change the board.

From Perth?

Why not?

Most people now work remotely, I travel to Melbourne 6 times a year anyway. Kochi was does ok travelling all year. 6 other board members who have a consistent, clear and concise plan for the football club.

We can sit here and watch our club slowly fold or do something about it.

Fix the brand, involve the members, win games of footy.

Obviously more complex than that, but can't do worse.

Silly question, you don't need
Money to be on the board? Just voted in.?

I reckon I would be a chance. Who's with me?

No cash but you need to prove youre a good candidate to the prez now  ;D

You don't need his tick to run but I'm sure he would make light of it come election time. I'd vote for you  8)

Seeing Gibbs last night, it wasn't a toughness thing, he just wasn't interested.

Consistency and focus is mental toughness. That is what he lacks, not physical toughness. Same as Murphy. They both fail when the heat is on

Silly question, you don't need
Money to be on the board? Just voted in.?

I reckon I would be a chance. Who's with me?

No, you would backstab your fellow board members.

No, you would backstab your fellow board members.

Keep thinking that.

I would still accept Hawks members back too

Why not?

Most people now work remotely, I travel to Melbourne 6 times a year anyway. Kochi was does ok travelling all year. 6 other board members who have a consistent, clear and concise plan for the football club.

We can sit here and watch our club slowly fold or do something about it.

Fix the brand, involve the members, win games of footy.

Obviously more complex than that, but can't do worse.

Fine by me.

I'm not sure how it works. At the moment I'd much rather give my coin to an alternate ticket than using it on membership.

Fix the brand, involve the members, win games of footy.

Obviously more complex than that, but can't do worse.

Reminds me of a Monty Python sketch - How to Play the Piano

1. Select the right key
2. Put it in the piano and open it (not essential, if you can't play)
3. Once the piano is fully open, put your fingers on top of the notes
4. Move your fingers about, making sure they hit the right notes in the correct order*
5. Watch your friends be amazed

* for other instruments, same thing but without the piano.

Actually, that skit sort of mirrors our recruiting strategy over the last decade:

1. Select high draft picks
2. Dress them in Carlton Football uniform (not essential if they can't play)
3. Once the siren sounds, put them on the field
4. Get them to run around making sure they kick lots of goals and stop the other team from doing so
5. Watch all supporters be amazed

Come on guys - if we didn't LAUGH, we'd CRY after last night.

btw, I'd vote for you Shadesy. Has an entire board ever been sacked from an AFL/VFL club?  Is it even possible? We're not a govt dept. or a publicly listed company - you couldn't just appoint an administrator to act as caretaker until new appointments or elections were conducted.  I think we're stuck with what we've got for another couple of years.

Its just sad that they ve botched this so badly.

Yep, we need to sort our crap out. We have enough first rounders to almost make up an entire squad.

this club treats it supporters with contempt.
15 years with just a flicker.
im at the end of my tether

Oxley, off the rookie list, 8 games, tears us apart. We keep finding players no one knows about and making them stars.

this club treats it supporters with contempt.
15 years with just a flicker.
im at the end of my tether

Empathy with that!

Let's just say the players are jack of Mick and were sending a message last night. Well the message I received, as a CFC member, was in the form of a large smelly turd right in my face! If those guys want to make a point whatever, then take it up with Mick off line, not in front of thousands of fans at the G on a night which should have been a celebration for the AFL and its followers. Pretty poor form if true and we'd be better off without that type in our club. Hell, all we want is for them to have a bl00dy good go.

I thought Murph and Gibbs did alright under Pagan, well under Ratten, but have just regressed under Mick.

Gibbs won the B&F last season with Murphy second, go figure.

Our defense last night was totally unacceptable. I saw some of the most basic fundamentals not being done or followed on multiple occasions.

Either the coaches don't have a clue, or the players simply don't listen and/or obey.

Not good enough !!

Jones had a go in the 1st qtr, but needs a tank, he is not AFL standard, I'd rather play Watson.

I like Armfield, he plays with more heart, than most. His speed is useful.

I like Ellard, but he is not an AFL standard footballer, we desperately need a better quality small forward in this years draft.

I thought Rowe did as good as could be expected against Cloke. Even on days when he is beaten, at least you know that Rowe will always give you 100% effort.

We need about 4 more Cripps and Dochertys out there playing, they are 2 of only too few who go out and play with any pride or passion.

Wood is a better 2nd ruck than Casboult.

I really can't tell if it's poor coaching, or a lack of respect and coachability on the players behalf, but there is something terribly wrong down at Carlton and until the president and board get it all sorted out, the future is looking pretty bleak for the Navy Blues.

 im still waiting for an attack folks....

All the posters on here that gave me a -10 karma for telling the truth That gibbs murph menzel yarran henderson  kruezer jamison walker should all be on the trade table as a minimum

Also pratt germinder gleeson clark farouh or any other director that supported sticks and swan over the last 8 years that drove our club into the dirt must resign....

I really can't tell if it's poor coaching, or a lack of respect and coachability on the players behalf, but there is something terribly wrong down at Carlton and until the president and board get it all sorted out, the future is looking pretty bleak for the Navy Blues.

There is something terribly wrong, two decades of butchering the national draft has left us miles short of quality footballers.

Murphy, Gibbs, Simpson, Judd and Walker had a total of 5 tackles between them for the entire game.

What kind of example is that from our senior players?

Chris Judd on SEN and said that his decision to play on last year was primarily based on his view that there had been a positive cultural change at Carlton. Specifically, he said that during his time at Carlton he felt at times that there were a number of  players that were not driven for team success and were more focused on individual success and were playing for their next contract - he suggested that it is different now, albeit that we lack talent in the 21-24 year old age bracket.

im still waiting for an attack folks....

All the posters on here that gave me a -10 karma for telling the truth That gibbs murph menzel yarran henderson  kruezer jamison walker should all be on the trade table as a minimum

Also pratt germinder gleeson clark farouh or any other director that supported sticks and swan over the last 8 years that drove our club into the dirt must resign....

It's not about you, why would you think this thread is?  ::)

Gutted. I don't post just enjoy reading what you guys have to say but this the most  soulless effort I have seen from a navy blue outfit in 40 years.
When your 8 year old son  says were rubbish you really don't have much to come back with.

I'm afraid he is correct. Juddy may say differently, and I do respect what he says, but yesterday was heartless, planless and pointless. If our guys were playing for the jumper, not themselves, then we are in real trouble.

It's not about you, why would you think this thread is?  ::)

correct....its about pathetic group think that promotes mediocrity...which is carlton ....

And your solution is simply to eliminate everyone?

Chris Judd on SEN and said that his decision to play on last year was primarily based on his view that there had been a positive cultural change at Carlton. Specifically, he said that during his time at Carlton he felt at times that there were a number of  players that were not driven for team success and were more focused on individual success and were playing for their next contract - he suggested that it is different now, albeit that we lack talent in the 21-24 year old age bracket.

Juddy still selling hope. Unfortunately, it's a cornballer he's selling and no one is buying

And your solution is simply to eliminate everyone?

Clear the board of former sticks swan supporters
keep trigger and the judge
remove mick and his assistants and do an independent selection committee recommending to the president of a suite of best candidates
remove mckay and Prendergast and replace with the best
remove the medical staff and replace with the best
get another top flight rectuiter to assist sos
build a new 44 player list
build a new fully integrated carlton reserves with a new coach
keep the carlton brand
Eggleston does not sit in the coaches box

Start the clock at zero and lets reload again...

Clear the board of former sticks swan supporters
keep trigger and the judge

The president must go too he's been a part of it, and who knows whose tentacles are wrapped around him

Our defense last night was totally unacceptable. I saw some of the most basic fundamentals not being done or followed on multiple occasions.

Either the coaches don't have a clue, or the players simply don't listen and/or obey.

Not good enough !!

Jones had a go in the 1st qtr, but needs a tank, he is not AFL standard, I'd rather play Watson.

I like Armfield, he plays with more heart, than most. His speed is useful.

I like Ellard, but he is not an AFL standard footballer, we desperately need a better quality small forward in this years draft.

I thought Rowe did as good as could be expected against Cloke. Even on days when he is beaten, at least you know that Rowe will always give you 100% effort.

We need about 4 more Cripps and Dochertys out there playing, they are 2 of only too few who go out and play with any pride or passion.

Wood is a better 2nd ruck than Casboult.

I really can't tell if it's poor coaching, or a lack of respect and coachability on the players behalf, but there is something terribly wrong down at Carlton and until the president and board get it all sorted out, the future is looking pretty bleak for the Navy Blues.

Replace one guy without a tank with one who lacks a tank and any acceleration?

The president must go too he's been a part of it, and who knows whose tentacles are wrapped around him

thats a good point and ideally everyone should go, but I know it sounds inconsistent but from what I see the judge is a 20 year carltonian.. unlike the blow ins that were parachuted on the board...he is the real deal from what I see. that said if there is a new better person that puts his hand up,,,they all go...

One thing is sure and certain we haven't got a forward's bootlace.
If you cant kick goals you don't win football games. :(

One thing is sure and certain we haven't got a forward's bootlace.
If you cant kick goals you don't win football games. :(

This was one of my biggest concerns during the off season.

I was hoping we could do a poor man's version of what the Pies did last night - having multiple goal kickers, many of whom are not specialist forwards. Has not panned out thus far.

One thing is sure and certain we haven't got a forward's bootlace.
If you cant kick goals you don't win football games. :(

Hey we have Ellard  :))

Is there any other team in the last 20 years that constantly bomb the ball to 175cm tagging mids as consistently as we have.

Was at the game last night. Local amateur comps play smarter then us. Just grab the ball and kick it towards our end where a midget is waiting to mark it against 2 defenders.    

Dumbest football club I've ever seen.

we've built a culture of finely manicured catwalk modeling metrosexuals
instead of brutal diehards that do not wilt in the face of adversity.
these leaders have no character

Gibbs won the B&F last season with Murphy second, go figure.

On this year's form they've clearly regressed.

On this year's form they've clearly regressed.

A week ago Murphy won the medal for BOG and he was easily our best last night, Gibbs had a bad one last night but these things happen and he doesn't have many.
Your sack Malthouse agenda is obvious PI2C but some of your posts are a bit over the edge.

You can't blame the forwards when we bomb the ball to two on one or chip it short and never kick into space.  Our guys wouldn't even know the term the Fat side!!

Rowe did the job on Cloke but every kick he had went to a big pack and he took 30 seconds to make the same decision over and over giving them time to set up. It was horrible.

Gibbs didn't run hard pointed his finger at everyone else and as usual never put his body on the line.

And you can't have Curnow , Whiley , Ellard , Armfield  as your small forwards/midfield depth.  They are just not up to this level.

As a combined effort that was the worst coaching exhibition and worst playing exhibition imaginable. We've played our best footy under MM when we've had a positive game plan, number more forward of the ball hence allow some run deep into the 50. like late last year. That way we have options, with run we create space meaning skills are better. With more numbers forward we can apply alot more pressure in our forward 50. I know it was St.Kilda last week but we did that and duly got the rewards with run and pressure in our forward 50.

I still remember the last qtr, Murphy got the ball and running, looking up from the half back flank and actually saw nothing in front of him. Like WTF is that game plan. It's not an excuse, and never should be, but no wonder players get demoralised and give up. Good coaches coach to the players strengths.

Ratten did well at Carlton because he had a game plan that played to our strengths, even with an average list. There were flaws in it but at least the players were committed, happy with it and payed for each other. That's always the start.

Hey we have Ellard  :))

Is there any other team in the last 20 years that constantly bomb the ball to 175cm tagging mids as consistently as we have.

Was at the game last night. Local amateur comps play smarter then us. Just grab the ball and kick it towards our end where a midget is waiting to mark it against 2 defenders.    

Dumbest football club I've ever seen.

That's the problem, too much of a negative game plan, too many blokes behind the ball, no-one to collect a handpass in the middle and run forward, no-one to kick to so without numbers you're left with bombing and hoping for the best.

A week ago Murphy won the medal for BOG and he was easily our best last night, Gibbs had a bad one last night but these things happen and he doesn't have many.
Your sack Malthouse agenda is obvious PI2C but some of your posts are a bit over the edge.

Meh, the fact that you feel the need to throw in a cheap shot highlights the weakness of your argument. All that coming from the guy that thinks we should've kept Pagan. Go figure.

Murphy was an MVP under Ratten. He's so far from that now it's just not funny. Gibbs has played collectively the worst three games of his career.

Meh, the fact that you feel the need to throw in a cheap shot highlights the weakness of your argument. All that coming from the guy that thinks we should've kept Pagan. Go figure.

Murphy was an MVP under Ratten. He's so far from that now it's just not funny. Gibbs has played collectively the worst three games of his career.

No cheap shot mate, you've made no secret of your wish to see Malthouse gone and it colours your judgement, if you can't see it it's not my problem.
Sacking Pagan was the biggest mistake we've made in the last decade, he was a proven coach who was proven as a developer of young players with the ability to build a team from the ground up.
He took over a club that was broke with a shot list then was handed a two year ban from the first two rounds of the draft, the results he achieved in 2004 under those circumstances were a minor miracle.
But football supporters are fickle and we had a weak kneed board, so rather than tough it out we sacked him and put a bloke in his place with almost zero experience to keep the members happy, he was the man who was going to bring back the Carlton swagger if my memory serves me correctly.
The swagger never arrived and five years of lacklustre results later we sacked him to employ the Messiah, and if history is any guide we'll cave in again and sack the Messiah as well, rinse and repeat.
We just don't have the cojones to stick it out, we're always chasing the miracle fix and harking back to the old days when we could buy flags, but those days are long gone and they won't be back.
Don't worry about who the coach is, the club and its supporters need to grow a pair and see things through for a change, that or accept the fact that we'll never be a power again.

I think some posters have gone early on Whiley. I'm prepared to give the kid a bit more time.

No cheap shot mate, you've made no secret of your wish to see Malthouse gone and it colours your judgement, if you can't see it it's not my problem.
Sacking Pagan was the biggest mistake we've made in the last decade, he was a proven coach who was proven as a developer of young players with the ability to build a team from the ground up.
He took over a club that was broke with a shot list then was handed a two year ban from the first two rounds of the draft, the results he achieved in 2003 under those circumstances were a minor miracle.

I think we were weaker when we sacked Ratten, who showed us just how far past it Pagan was, yet the minute Ratten wobbled we wound back the clock and purchased the fixer!

We are well and truly fixed now, no doubt about it!

I think some posters have gone early on Whiley. I'm prepared to give the kid a bit more time.

Agreed, the kid has something and was sorely let down by senior players around him last night! What a shizen game to début in, when so many of your seniors turned to butter!

I think some posters have gone early on Whiley. I'm prepared to give the kid a bit more time.

Agree. He came into the side in the worst imaginable circumstances. Should be allowed to find his feet in the NBs. In hindsight, Graham would have been a better option even if his form had been unspectacular.

I think some posters have gone early on Whiley. I'm prepared to give the kid a bit more time.

Yep
He struggled with the pace of the game and got caught a couple of times.
That probably dented his confidence a bit.
Then that debacle was happening all around him so it was a case of every man for himself.
Not an ideal situation to work in with your team-mates.
Give him another go, it's not like we have a lot to lose...if it goes pear shaped again back to the VFL for a spell

No cheap shot mate, you've made no secret of your wish to see Malthouse gone and it colours your judgement, if you can't see it it's not my problem.
Sacking Pagan was the biggest mistake we've made in the last decade, he was a proven coach who was proven as a developer of young players with the ability to build a team from the ground up.
He took over a club that was broke with a shot list then was handed a two year ban from the first two rounds of the draft, the results he achieved in 2004 under those circumstances were a minor miracle.
But football supporters are fickle and we had a weak kneed board, so rather than tough it out we sacked him and put a bloke in his place with almost zero experience to keep the members happy, he was the man who was going to bring back the Carlton swagger if my memory serves me correctly.
The swagger never arrived and five years of lacklustre results later we sacked him to employ the Messiah, and if history is any guide we'll cave in again and sack the Messiah as well, rinse and repeat.
We just don't have the cojones to stick it out, we're always chasing the miracle fix and harking back to the old days when we could buy flags, but those days are long gone and they won't be back.
Don't worry about who the coach is, the club and its supporters need to grow a pair and see things through for a change, that or accept the fact that we'll never be a power again.

No offence but anyone that thinks sacking Pagan was the worst thing we did is, well, struggling. How many spoons, 100pt defeats, 10 goal defeats, record losses could you stomach. It's unbelievable that anyone with any knowledge of the game could think that sacking Pagan was a bad move. No list is ever that bad to go as badly as we did under him. Soon as Ratten came in we went up the ladder and played finals 2 years later, with what was probably an average list too. that alone proved getting rid of Pagan was a good move.

I think we were weaker when we sacked Ratten, who showed us just how far past it Pagan was, yet the minute Ratten wobbled we wound back the clock and purchased the fixer!

We are well and truly fixed now, no doubt about it!

It's a cumulative effect, a decade of poor administration, poor recruiting, members baying for blood and wealthy sponsors with too much clout.
Sacking Malthouse will only confirm our status as a rabble, but sack him we almost certainly will.

Yep
He struggled with the pace of the game and got caught a couple of times.
That probably dented his confidence a bit.
Then that debacle was happening all around him so it was a case of every man for himself.
Not an ideal situation to work in with your team-mates.
Give him another go, it's not like we have a lot to lose...if it goes pear shaped again back to the VFL for a spell

I thought Whiley struggled with the pace of the game. But he was not the first of our recent recruits to struggle early. I'd give him a few more chances yet before I'd remove him from our future.
That said, he played a very defensive style of game that didn't go with what he has been producing at VFL level. That doesn't help getting his possessions up. Nor was playing on a guy like Pendelbury when the rest of the ship is sinking around him. That is not a good recipe for success.

Boekhorst, on the other hand, showed a bit when he came on. Not sold on him yet, but he did a LOT more than he did earlier and looked dangerous.

No offence but anyone that thinks sacking Pagan was the worst thing we did is, well, struggling. How many spoons, 100pt defeats, 10 goal defeats, record losses could you stomach. It's unbelievable that anyone with any knowledge of the game could think that sacking Pagan was a bad move. No list is ever that bad to go as badly as we did under him. Soon as Ratten came in we went up the ladder and played finals 2 years later, with what was probably an average list too. that alone proved getting rid of Pagan was a good move.

There's no point going over it, what's done is done and neither of us will change our mind.
I remember going to a game when Pagan was coach, there were 16,000 of us hardy souls at the MCG to watch us line up Ian Prendergast against Matthew Pavlich, Pavlich kicked 3 in the first 10 minutes and ended up with 9.
That was fun, but I didn't blame Pagan when we lost the match.

That said, he played a very defensive style of game that didn't go with what he has been producing at VFL level. That doesn't help getting his possessions up. Nor was playing on a guy like Pendelbury when the rest of the ship is sinking around him. That is not a good recipe for success.

No doubt playing to instructions.
He was given a job that was probably against his natural style of play on one of the most dangerous players in the competition. ???

There's no point going over it, what's done is done and neither of us will change our mind.
I remember going to a game when Pagan was coach, there were 16,000 of us hardy souls at the MCG to watch us line up Ian Prendergast against Matthew Pavlich, Pavlich kicked 3 in the first 10 minutes and ended up with 9.
That was fun, but I didn't blame Pagan when we lost the match.

Pagan had 5 years, the team was going backwards. Which is a bit of an effort as we were going onto our 3rd spoon in a row.

You get 1 year of going backwards if you are lucky in this game. Nature of the beast. Mick's had his go and he's come up short. The biggest mistake we made was letting him have free run instead of letting him know he has to fit within our structures.

You get 1 year of going backwards if you are lucky in this game.

Luckily for Geelong supporters their club didn't follow that formula with Bomber Thompson.
5th in his first year then 12th, 9th and 12th in his next three, two years of finals then 10th in 2006.
The rest is history, it took him 8 years to win the flag but it was worth the wait, they won three.

The biggest mistake we made was letting him have free run instead of letting him know he has to fit within our structures.

We have structures? ;)

Pagan. FFS. No wonder he wants to keep Malthouse.

Luckily for Geelong supporters their club didn't follow that formula with Bomber Thompson.
5th in his first year then 12th, 9th and 12th in his next three, two years of finals then 10th in 2006.
The rest is history, it took him 8 years to win the flag but it was worth the wait, they won three.

Bomber finished 10th in 2006 with 10 wins and a draw. Took over a team which finished 12th and 11th (with 9 and 10 wins) , the two years before his appointment and took them to 5th the following year with 12 wins and a draw.

We'll be fighting out bottom 2, hardly the same. Infact, we'll all be patting Mick on the back and offering him 3 years if he manages anything like Bomber's 2006 season, not talking about sacking him.

We have structures? ;)

God knows what Swan was doing so probably not.

There's no point going over it, what's done is done and neither of us will change our mind.
I remember going to a game when Pagan was coach, there were 16,000 of us hardy souls at the MCG to watch us line up Ian Prendergast against Matthew Pavlich, Pavlich kicked 3 in the first 10 minutes and ended up with 9.
That was fun, but I didn't blame Pagan when we lost the match.

Agreed, and the biggest problem about sacking Pagan was the cultural issue of the tail wagging the dog.

Bryce Gibbs learnt that lesson well it seems.

Has repeated it twice and seems to be teaching his mates too.

Pagan. FFS. No wonder he wants to keep Malthouse.

Pagan had North in the finals for 12 consecutive seasons and won two flags, at a club with no money, bugger all members and crap facilities, yet he somehow lost all his ability as a leader of men the minute he walked in the door at Princes Park.
Odd, to say the very least.
I've had a gutfull of sacking coaches and looking for the next quick fix, it's got nothing to do with Malthouse in fact I've never particularly liked the bloke.
If we sack Malthouse we're officially a basket case, beyond help.

Agreed, and the biggest problem about sacking Pagan was the cultural issue of the tail wagging the dog.

Bryce Gibbs learnt that lesson well it seems.

Has repeated it twice and seems to be teaching his mates too.

Gibbs cops way too much flak in my opinion, he's a bloody good footballer but not the out and out champion we all hoped for.
We should get a bit of a grip though, last night's performance was bad but we're an average team even with a full list and we were missing 5 players who are walk up starts, 3 of them are probably in our best 6 or 8.
If we can get all of them back and playing we'll win a fair few games as the season goes on.

Pagan had North in the finals for 12 consecutive seasons and won two flags, at a club with no money, bugger all members and crap facilities, yet he somehow lost all his ability as a leader of men the minute he walked in the door at Princes Park.
Odd, to say the very least.
I've had a gutfull of sacking coaches and looking for the next quick fix, it's got nothing to do with Malthouse in fact I've never particularly liked the bloke.
If we sack Malthouse we're officially a basket case, beyond help.

o
With old coaches, especially Pagan, the game passes them by. By the time he got to us he was trying to play a by-gone game plan. He was still running 30 interchanges when everyone else was running 100. As for Mick, why play so many behind the ball and have such a negative game plan when he's seen time and again we do better when we are allowed to get numbers forward and run, as happened late last year. Not mention other games previous years where we've been a mile behind where he's changed the played, allowed us to run and we've fought back quickly. When he coaches like that he does a good job but why no do it all the time if you're a smart coach. Terrible last night to see players run to the middle and have no-one there or ahead of them to pass to by hand or foot. A coach worth his weight in salt coaches a side to their strengths, not their weaknesses. It why Ratten did well. While it wasn't totally flawless he coached the side to their strengths and got results from not necessarily a brilliant list. He was stiff to be chopped if you want to talk about changing coaches.

.
If we sack Malthouse we're officially a basket case, beyond help.

That's already the case whether we sack MM or not. Our recruiting of recent times has left us with a team that would struggle against the Carlton teams post salary cap sanctions. We are in for a Game  of Thrones style winter.  :(

I think that all parties at the club are at fault and are the cause of our predicament.  All need to take a bloody hard look at themselves and all need to start pulling on the same rope... a rope connected to the concept that this club needs to rebuild everything form the ground up.

1.  The players.  Well we have the list we have because our list management, recruiting and development are back in the 1960's, so any improvement in those areas will translate directly into better onfield results.  However, the players themselves have to share the burden because of a variable and sporadic work rate, which everybody agrees has been a significant issue for far too long.  Too many blokes have, as Mr Judd succinctly put in this morning, been satisfied with just getting a game and have not been 100% committed to winning at all costs...  "paying the price" as he put it.
2.  Selection.  Too frequently we make mystifying and unjustifiable selections and don't put a side on the park that gives us a chance of winning - too many games are lost on Thursday night.  Too frequently we don't pick balanced sides, or sides with gaping deficiencies that the opposition exploit.  We do not appear to do our homework on the opposition e.g. tagging DeLedio is the first thing 16 other clubs do against Richmond.
3.  Coaching.  Includes development, instruction and game plan IMO.  Slow ball movement is death in football, and the good sides own the corridor... or you employ a defensive gameplan based upon team defence and manic defensive pressure.  We do neither... yet play everybody behind the ball and seem to rely upon slow ball movement outside the corridor with inside 50 invariably a bomb to a key forward.  Why Mick continues with this plan, which clearly doesn't work, is bewildering.

So quite frankly;
1.  recruiting and development must improve (not really possible until EOS).
2. The wheat needs to be sorted from the chaff re the playing list - either you're in and committed or you can leave.  That said, we must commit to players that buy in.
3.  I'm happy for Mick to continue but on the condition that he starts rebuilding the list and starts developing a realistic gameplan suited to modern football, not 1985.  Wins are immaterial right now - its how (and who) they play between now and the end of the year that should dictate Mick's future.  And this should be communicated to all parties.

I think some posters have gone early on Whiley. I'm prepared to give the kid a bit more time.

x2....Was playing at VFL pace and looked slow, Pendlebury is probably the best mid in the comp at the minute given Ablett is out and it was a tough ask coming in cold.
Worst thing we can do is drop him, I might have tempted to play him off half back after half time and let him take a lesser opponent to build some confidence...

Elwood, that would be an excellent option. Playing him at half back flank, and helping to get the ball out of defence. While Whiley wasn't great, he did start to get the ball and was getting better. He needs a few games to get a feel for the pace of the game for certain.

x2....Was playing at VFL pace and looked slow, Pendlebury is probably the best mid in the comp at the minute given Ablett is out and it was a tough ask coming in cold.
Worst thing we can do is drop him, I might have tempted to play him off half back after half time and let him take a lesser opponent to build some confidence...

I like (sarcastically) how we put him on Pendlebury first game. Who was the bright spark that thought of that idea.

I like (sarcastically) how we put him on Pendlebury first game. Who was the bright spark that thought of that idea.

I suggested and endosed that move would happen pre game given Whiley had done a good job on Ablett when playing for GWS....it was good in theory but Whileys lack of senior match practice
really had him off the pace even though he had form in the VFL. I would have moved him off Pendlebury earlier when he was getting towelled up, thought Mick left him there too long and his confidence like his fitness expired. Was better after half time but he was shot mentally...needs some more game time and I think he will be ok, he doesnt shirk contests and is a willing worker and we need to persist with him.

That's already the case whether we sack MM or not. Our recruiting of recent times has left us with a team that would struggle against the Carlton teams post salary cap sanctions. We are in for a Game  of Thrones style winter.  :(

Our recruiting has been poor for a very long time and we are paying the price.
We never took the draft seriously in Elliott's day and traded picks willy nilly, we've never really got the hang of it or invested enough resources into identifying young talent.
I remember watching Luke Livingstone's first game and wondering what it was about him that made the club think he was worth our first pick, I've had the same feeling watching the likes of Bootsma, Hampson and Watson in more recent times.
Shaun Burgoyne, Daniel Kerr, Drew Petrie, Kane Cornes, Dom Cassisi, Scott Thompson, Josh Hunt, Graham Johncock and Ted Richards all went after our first three picks in that 2000 draft, we took Livingstone, Trent Sporn and Simon Wiggins in the first 15, Ash McGrath went at 13.
We took Sporn the pick before Burgoyne back then, and a few years ago we took Lucas the pick before Talia, we've just never got it right.

Our recruiting has been poor for a very long time and we are paying the price.
We never took the draft seriously in Elliott's day and traded picks willy nilly, we've never really got the hang of it or invested enough resources into identifying young talent.
I remember watching Luke Livingstone's first game and wondering what it was about him that made the club think he was worth our first pick, I've had the same feeling watching the likes of Bootsma, Hampson and Watson in more recent times.
Shaun Burgoyne, Daniel Kerr, Drew Petrie, Kane Cornes, Dom Cassisi, Scott Thompson, Josh Hunt, Graham Johncock and Ted Richards all went after our first three picks in that 2000 draft, we took Livingstone, Trent Sporn and Simon Wiggins in the first 15, Ash McGrath went at 13.
We took Sporn the pick before Burgoyne back then, and a few years ago we took Lucas the pick before Talia, we've just never got it right.

The 2000 draft was a shocker...to be fair to Livingston he had a serious abdominal injury and never really recovered......

Our picks are a little bit more than just bad luck here and there. We really haven't found any gems in years. While other clubs have picked like specialists. Our trade with players hasn't been great, and then we have lost players for nothing. This is probably where our troubles have begun in the first place. No wonder our stocks look cheap at best. Sure we have had a few good decisions, but few and far between. I still can't see what we have in Dick, Tutt and Jones. I know I should give them a chance and I will do so. If we had Laidler, Betts and Waite, I am convinced we would not have as many problems as we do at the moment. Lucas is another one I shake my head at daily. What a bad week to give up smoking.

The 2000 draft was a shocker...to be fair to Livingston he had a serious abdominal injury and never really recovered......

There are players from that draft still playing top football, Burgoyne played in a premiership side last year and Thompson won Adelaide's B&F and has been AA, we would have killed for Drew Petrie or Ted Richards at any time in the last 10 years.
The only current ten year players we have drafted are Simmo and Walks, the rest have disappeared without a trace.
We might have finally got one right with Cripps but I'm not convinced that trading pick 7 for Jacksch was good value, time will tell.

Zero chance Richards would still be playing AFL if he was at Carlton

There are players from that draft still playing top football, Burgoyne played in a premiership side last year and Thompson won Adelaide's B&F and has been AA, we would have killed for Drew Petrie or Ted Richards at any time in the last 10 years.
The only current ten year players we have drafted are Simmo and Walks, the rest have disappeared without a trace.
We might have finally got one right with Cripps but I'm not convinced that trading pick 7 for Jacksch was good value, time will tell.

Jaksch, Whiley and Boekhorst for pick 7 is one that will create a fair few threads in the future either way it works out......I supported the trade and still do.
All three have their issues to overcome but as Meatloaf said  two out of three aint bad and I reckon thats what you are hoping for in that type of deal.

Jaksch vs White was a draw, Whiley had a shocker first up and poor Boekhorst came on when we were getting pumped and while he tried hard he was just
swept aside in the avalanche of Collingwood players getting numbers to the footy...
Reckon Jaksch and the Boeky man can be useful players if we can get them settled.....Whiley may take a bit longer to rebuild his confidence...
I like Boekhorst forward and reckon he could be the crumbing goalkicker  we need if Mick could settle him there...

Jaksch, Whiley and Boekhorst for pick 7 is one that will create a fair few threads in the future either way it works out......I supported the trade and still do.
All three have their issues to overcome but as Meatloaf said  two out of three aint bad and I reckon thats what you are hoping for in that type of deal.

Jaksch vs White was a draw, Whiley had a shocker first up and poor Boekhorst came on when we were getting pumped and while he tried hard he was just
swept aside in the avalanche of Collingwood players getting numbers to the footy...
Reckon Jaksch and the Boeky man can be useful players if we can get them settled.....Whiley may take a bit longer to rebuild his confidence...
I like Boekhorst forward and reckon he could be the crumbing goalkicker  we need if Mick could settle him there...

Yes, putting Whiley on Pendlebury first game didn't exactly smack of intelligence.

Reckon Jaksch and the Boeky man can be useful players if we can get them settled....

You could be right Elwood but what would you rather, two useful players or one top liner?
There have been some awfully good footballers drafted around pick 7, Yarran was 6.
A win in this trade for me would mean that at least one of them plays 150 games.

Yes, putting Whiley on Pendlebury first game didn't exactly smack of intelligence.

It was an education if nothing else, not something the kid will forget in a hurry.
Depending on his character it could be the making of him.

We're done. Im sensing something is wrong at the club. It similarly reminds me of '78 before  Jezza took over.

x2....Was playing at VFL pace and looked slow, Pendlebury is probably the best mid in the comp at the minute given Ablett is out and it was a tough ask coming in cold.
Worst thing we can do is drop him, I might have tempted to play him off half back after half time and let him take a lesser opponent to build some confidence...

x3...

whiley on penddles was a dumb move that had impact through the whole line up

Agree re not writing Whiley off and I would rather him play on Pendles as opposed to starting as sub.

whiley on penddles was a dumb move that had impact through the whole line up

I'm not suggesting it's right or wrong but suspect the club would explain it as a steep learning curve and with the loss of Carrazzo probably had no other option.

I'm not suggesting it's right or wrong but suspect the club would explain it as a steep learning curve and with the loss of Carrazzo probably had no other option.

It' easy to blame Whiley, but Pendels had two or three Pies players to give it off to every time he broke free. Who was on them would be the question I would ask!

It' easy to blame Whiley, but Pendels had two or three Pies players to give it off to every time he broke free. Who was on them would be the question I would ask!

Great question and comes right back to our softness and lack of leadership, courage and initiative.

It was an education if nothing else, not something the kid will forget in a hurry.
Depending on his character it could be the making of him.

While(..y) didn't help win the game, I think it will show Whiley just how hard he needs to work.

Frustrating that Pendles goals came from free kicks though.

We give away far too many in our defensive 50...

While(..y) didn't help win the game, I think it will show Whiley just how hard he needs to work.

Frustrating that Pendles goals came from free kicks though.

We give away far too many in our defensive 50...

We give away too many in our attacking 50 as well, two soft ones on Friday night 20 metres from our goal.
I remember Pagan playing Walker on Adam Goodes in one of his early games, he explained that it would teach Walker where to run and how hard he needed to work.
Playing Whiley on Pendlebury at least indicates that Malthouse has a decent opinion of him.

There are players from that draft still playing top football, Burgoyne played in a premiership side last year and Thompson won Adelaide's B&F and has been AA, we would have killed for Drew Petrie or Ted Richards at any time in the last 10 years.
The only current ten year players we have drafted are Simmo and Walks, the rest have disappeared without a trace.
We might have finally got one right with Cripps but I'm not convinced that trading pick 7 for Jacksch was good value, time will tell.

I reckon that's where our rebuild fell over.  Too much reliance on too few.

These days you need a good team with depth, not a few stars with a cast of triers.

St Kilda are the last side I can think of that went the latter and ironically were beaten to a flag by two teams that chose the former.

I reckon that's where our rebuild fell over.  Too much reliance on too few.

Too many failed draft picks is the simple answer.
Since we got back in the draft in 2004 there isn't a single player on our list except Armfield taken outside of the first round apart from a couple in the last few years who have played the odd game and may or may not be on the list in 2017.
That's 10 years of misses, it can't be all bad luck.
Add to that first round misses like Lucas, Watson and Bootsma and there is our problem in a nut shell.
It wouldn't matter who the coach was, we don't have the cattle.

Club has been very very quiet over the weekend.

No player has come out and accepted responsibility?

Any players tweeted?

Too many failed draft picks is the simple answer.
Since we got back in the draft in 2004 there isn't a single player on our list except Armfield taken outside of the first round apart from a couple in the last few years who have played the odd game and may or may not be on the list in 2017.
That's 10 years of misses, it can't be all bad luck.
Add to that first round misses like Lucas, Watson and Bootsma and there is our problem in a nut shell.
It wouldn't matter who the coach was, we don't have the cattle.

A coach, if done the right way, will make those players play better. Much of this group have played finals.

A coach, if done the right way, will make those players play better. Much of this group have played finals.

As John Kennedy once said, you can boil them, fry them, curry them or bake them but they're still sausages.

Watson and Bootsma were late firdt rounders in compromised drafts, not many great players went after them. Lucas clearly had the talent but not the drive. Hawthorn missed two early first rounders, didn't seem to hold them back.

 :(OMG we took Lucas pick 9

Daniel Talia went pick 12 AA CHB Crows…and we had such a strong spine…..don't think so…!!!

One of Carlton's all time howlers in the last 5 years drafting

On the Couch last night just highlighted what I've said all year. We don't run and we don't apply pressure. Some footage of Marc Murphy not even trying half way through the first quarter was shameful.

On the Couch last night just highlighted what I've said all year. We don't run and we don't apply pressure. Some footage of Marc Murphy not even trying half way through the first quarter was shameful.

"Witches Hats" Brown called us....screwing "witches hats" >:(
Problem is it was hard to argue against :(

"Witches Hats" Brown called us....screwing "witches hats" >:(
Problem is it was hard to argue against :(

You should have seen it at the ground. Disgraceful

"Witches Hats" Brown called us....screwing "witches hats" >:(
Problem is it was hard to argue against :(

You could not have mounted any argument against that comment. He was simply stating the bloomin' obvious.  ;) ;D

(http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/800221/800221,1317265933,2/stock-vector-witches-hats-and-safety-marking-cones-85580860.jpg)

The Blues line-up for Sunday. Interchange tbc.

(http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Lenin-620x362.jpeg)

And will this man be taking Edelston's seat in the coaching box this week??

Re Edelston in the Coach's box... what an appalling decision. Two people needs their dots kicked over this ...the person who suggested it and the person who agreed with them.

Re Edelston in the Coach's box... what an appalling decision. Two people needs their dots kicked over this ...the person who suggested it and the person who agreed with them.

I'm guessing he suggested it, and he's given the club too much money and support for anyone to say no. Next time put his missus there instead of him.

Not a good look at all, but realistically why is who is watching from the coaches box important?

Is this another one of the CFC logo issues that isnt of great signficance when we have much bigger issues to sort out?

On the Couch last night just highlighted what I've said all year. We don't run and we don't apply pressure. Some footage of Marc Murphy not even trying half way through the first quarter was shameful.

Marc Murphy was highlighted, fair enough, but we had 8 players standing around watching Dwyer slide unopposed to the goal square. During in game i said it was 4 players...but 8!!

It was a disgusting bit of footage.

Not a good look at all, but realistically why is who is watching from the coaches box important?

Is this another one of the CFC logo issues that isnt of great signficance when we have much bigger issues to sort out?

All these things add up. This clown was also present for the team photos. If the club is seen as a club for shady old codgers to gather, looking for a bit of a massage for their ageing egos, that detracts from us professionally and does not portray us as a hard edged and focused outfit. The players, and others, no doubt pick up that message. I don't think the prospect of having their photo taken with the Doc would entice many FAs to want to join us either.  ::)

If we want his money, keep him out of sight somewhere in a coterie group and p155 in his pocket there, well away from the front line action!

All these things add up. This clown was also present for the team photos. If the club is seen as a club for shady old codgers to gather, looking for a bit of a massage for their ageing egos, that detracts from us professionally and does not portray us as a hard edged and focused outfit. The players, and others, no doubt pick up that message. I don't think the prospect of having their photo taken with the Doc would entice many FAs to want to join us either.  ::)

If we want his money, keep him out of sight somewhere in a coterie group and p155 in his pocket there, well away from the front line action!

They may as well have have John Elliot in the box smashing out a dart with a can of piss in his hands.

Same effect.

They may as well have have John Elliot in the box smashing out a dart with a can of piss in his hands.

Same effect.

You paint a vivid picture Cimm.  :)

All these things add up. This clown was also present for the team photos. If the club is seen as a club for shady old codgers to gather, looking for a bit of a massage for their ageing egos, that detracts from us professionally and does not portray us as a hard edged and focused outfit. The players, and others, no doubt pick up that message. I don't think the prospect of having their photo taken with the Doc would entice many FAs to want to join us either.  ::)

If we want his money, keep him out of sight somewhere in a coterie group and p155 in his pocket there, well away from the front line action!

This really says something about where we are at in terms of finances.

Lets face it, the AFL(Vlad and his Bumber Underground) have killed us as a club and we will probably be long gone very soon! (Refer to Fitzroy!)

All these things add up. This clown was also present for the team photos. If the club is seen as a club for shady old codgers to gather, looking for a bit of a massage for their ageing egos, that detracts from us professionally and does not portray us as a hard edged and focused outfit. The players, and others, no doubt pick up that message. I don't think the prospect of having their photo taken with the Doc would entice many FAs to want to join us either.  ::)

If we want his money, keep him out of sight somewhere in a coterie group and p155 in his pocket there, well away from the front line action!

I want to be clear, I have no opinion on him being there being a major issue, or anything, but surely having a bloke like him around, and his proffesional network of people might assist us get players into circles of business that they couldnt otherwise get an influence in?

Sure this guy is no great assistance to our football, but I think we are condemning a man who probably means as well as any of us, for simply being present.

If we are distracted by a guy in a coaches box, we are in all sorts.

I want to be clear, I have no opinion on him being there being a major issue, or anything, but surely having a bloke like him around, and his proffesional network of people might assist us get players into circles of business that they couldnt otherwise get an influence in?

Sure this guy is no great assistance to our football, but I think we are condemning a man who probably means as well as any of us, for simply being present.

If we are distracted by a guy in a coaches box, we are in all sorts.

Would Richmond allow Toby Mitchell into the coaches box if he was the highest bidder at a club auction? It's all about the brand and protecting our brand.   We were a laughing stock amongst other supporters last Friday due to both our on field and off field exploits.

Love him or hate him, Eddie would not let it happen at COLLINGWOOD!!

Would Richmond allow Toby Mitchell into the coaches box if he was the highest bidder at a club auction? It's all about the brand and protecting our brand.   We were a laughing stock amongst other supporters last Friday due to both our on field and off field exploits.

Love him or hate him, Eddie would not let it happen at COLLINGWOOD!!

Sorry mate, I saw Edelston and yawned as I really dont care about that sort of detail particularly when we are on the receiving end of a 75 point clinical pasting.

Toby Mitchell and him dont even compare as being a similar level of delinquent either.

Sorry mate, I saw Edelston and yawned as I really dont care about that sort of detail particularly when we are on the receiving end of a 75 point clinical pasting.

Toby Mitchell and him dont even compare as being a similar level of delinquent either.

Edelston and Carlton go hand in hand Thry, you may have not noticed but plenty of others have - the guy is everywhere - at our functions, games, you name it. I once thought I was very lucky when taken to a CFC presidents lunch a few years ago but guess who was on the same table. He has becone, unfortunately, synonymous with the Carlton brand but he's not exactly had a stellar run as a solid citizen.

We need to pick our friends more carefully. We just don't need that kind of association, especially in the public eye, and now it's really biting us in terms of providing lampooning material - reinforcing us as some kind of caricature of 1980s excess, a place where the flotsam and jetsam of that era washes up. Why would talented players want to join such an outfit?

The Doc's got photos.
He knows where the skeletons are buried.
It's the only explanation.

It may be a minor thing in the scheme of things but I reckon many Carlton folk thought "that just about sums the place up" when his face appeared on screen on Friday night.

The Doc's got photos.
He knows where the skeletons are buried.
It's the only explanation.

It may be a minor thing in the scheme of things but I reckon many Carlton folk thought "that just about sums the place up" when his face appeared on screen on Friday night.

X2

The Doc's got photos.
He knows where the skeletons are buried.
It's the only explanation.

It may be a minor thing in the scheme of things but I reckon many Carlton folk thought "that just about sums the place up" when his face appeared on screen on Friday night.

They say a picture says 1000 words... well that said 1 million I reckon.

It may be a minor thing in the scheme of things but I reckon many Carlton folk thought "that just about sums the place up" when his face appeared on screen on Friday night.

I think it showed the whole world that LoGiudice and the board have clearly no idea of the manner in which our club is perceived by the rest of the football world and even more concerning is that it showed that they have lost any connection with the real fan base. Poor old Trigg must feel like he's pushing $hit uphill ATM.

Like my Collingwood mate keeps saying to me on Facebook. CarLOLton.

Too many failed draft picks is the simple answer.
Since we got back in the draft in 2004 there isn't a single player on our list except Armfield taken outside of the first round apart from a couple in the last few years who have played the odd game and may or may not be on the list in 2017.
That's 10 years of misses, it can't be all bad luck.
Add to that first round misses like Lucas, Watson and Bootsma and there is our problem in a nut shell.
It wouldn't matter who the coach was, we don't have the cattle.

Blue4Life you have got that in one. Dont forget we threw away a round two and three pick for Warnock

Just the second round pick I think Rooster. It was a failed trade nonetheless.

Just the second round pick I think Rooster. It was a failed trade nonetheless.

Which also meant we lost Jacobs

Considering we gave up JK because we wanted Kruezer.

But turned second rounders into Docherty and Everitt.

I understand that coves who contribute a certain amount to the club get to sit in the coach's box and it was Edelston's turn on Friday.

I'm not sure how Edelston can afford to make that contribution given that he settled his bankruptcy earlier this year with creditors accepting just a few cents in the dollar.  However, even if Edelston was able to chip in a seven figure sum, the club should say "Thanks, but no thanks!"

Edelston's association with our club and his presence in the coach's box epitomises the stench that permeates our off field culture and high level decision making; if you've got enough cash, you can have a say in deciding what's best for Carlton, regardless of your character or expertise.

If LoGiudice has (a) balls and (b) the best interests of our club at heart, he should send Edelston packing.

I understand that coves who contribute a certain amount to the club get to sit in the coach's box and it was Edelston's turn on Friday.

I'm not sure how Edelston can afford to make that contribution given that he settled his bankruptcy earlier this year with creditors accepting just a few cents in the dollar.  However, even if Edelston was able to chip in a seven figure sum, the club should say "Thanks, but no thanks!"

Edelston's association with our club and his presence in the coach's box epitomises the stench that permeates our off field culture and high level decision making; if you've got enough cash, you can have a say in deciding what's best for Carlton, regardless of your character or expertise.

If LoGiudice has (a) balls and (b) the best interests of our club at heart, he should send Edelston packing.

They don't know if they aren't told.

All it needs is a 2 line email telling the club that we don't want to be associated with the good doctor or his money.

[email protected].   He does listen. 

Been thinking about our terrible efforts and many suggest it's a Coach has lost the players issue...

Maybe the 'rift' is between players? And it spreads as people takes sides....?

Been thinking about our terrible efforts and many suggest it's a Coach has lost the players issue...

Maybe the 'rift' is between players? And it spreads as people takes sides....?

That wouldn't surprise at all.
When things are going bad and you have a group of fringe players all trying to break into the side there will be many who think they deserve a spot ahead of others.

Now the argument against that is that they should suck it it up and get on with the job, but if you see a bloke getting a string of games and producing little while you get no opportunities it's only natural to be a little resentful.

You start to see hidden motives....Is he a coach favourite?..Are they playing him because they have to justify recruiting him?

Just as an example....
If you were Matthew Watson
You finished off 2014 with a very good game
The coach said how pleased he was that you'd finally developed a bit of self belief
Your setting yourself up for 2015 then.....
The club recruits and talks up a new recruit
He plays the first 5 games and shows very little.
With each game that goes by Watson may be starting to wonder if he's ever going to get an opportunity.
Now the easy solution would be for Watson to kick 7 or 8 goals in the VFL and demand a spot.
....but it doesn't stop individuals from feeling hard done by.
 (Note:.. I'm just using Watson as an example...he may be coping quite well with the situation.)

Now imagine you're Marc Murphy
You get kicked from pillar to post each weekend with little support from your team-mates
You're savaged by supporters for your lack of leadership.
Your lack of effort is highlighted in the media.
All the while the former captain is praised all over the place for his continued effort and inspiration.
This despite the fact that your own stats including defensive and pressure stats compare pretty favourably.
Even the best of us would feel a little aggrieved and resentful
(again just an example....BTW I reckon he's carrying a chronic injury)

Inconsistency in the treatment of players is one element that can have a detrimental effect on team dynamics.
Some may be embracing Mick's philosophy and game plan, others may not be so on-board. That can lead to divisions.
In the midst of a "rebuild" some players are probably distracted with no guarantees of a position next year.
Age and interest differences can contribute to a gap in the team. That's natural and understandable but still a factor in bonding within a struggling side.

Now maybe none of that is occurring, but there seems to be an inability for the team to play four quarters as a "team".

@Lods

Hard to know what's actually going on inside the tent Lods, but from observing what actually happens in games it is obvious to me that the team is restive, disillusioned to a degree and struggling with motivation. Underneath and driving that is likely to be some sense of futility in terms of where the hell the club is headed. Just my opinion - you'd have to be an insider to really know.

@Lods

Hard to know what's actually going on inside the tent Lods, but from observing what actually happens in games it is obvious to me that the team is restive, disillusioned to a degree and struggling with motivation. Underneath and driving that is likely to be some sense of futility in terms of where the hell the club is headed. Just my opinion - you'd have to be an insider to really know.

Yep 
We don't know
Player division may be the problem
It may just be one aspect.
It may not even exist (doubtful there isn't some tension at that level)

Nobody seems to want to embrace a process that would find out the answers.

Been thinking about our terrible efforts and many suggest it's a Coach has lost the players issue...

Maybe the 'rift' is between players? And it spreads as people takes sides....?

...was a thought that occurred to me also the other day, maybe many blokes don't agree with Murph as Captain? Maybe they're not behind the Skipper. Reckon there might just be something in this; that there is disharmony in the ranks!

Didn't the players vote Murph in?

Didn't the players vote Murph in?

They did, the selection needed the blessing of those higher up though.

They did, the selection needed the blessing of those higher up though.

I dont think the players have an issue with Murphy. I think they have an issue with the coach, that message was delivered to the football public Friday night.  If it wasnt the case, then I would have expected to see the leaders at least front up to the presser after the game with MM and make the statement "MM is not going in there alone tonight, we will take the heat for this alongside MM". Its what I would have done. Instead, they drank their Powerade, did some stretches, fixed their hair and collected a pay cheque on the way home.

When a team gets a run on, the players start playing for themselves.

I remember watching Ed Curnow Blanket a man next to a Player with a free kick, while two Collingwood players ran forward of the ball unopposed. It was like... "I am on this guy".

When a team gets a run on, the players start playing for themselves.

I remember watching Ed Curnow Blanket a man next to a Player with a free kick, while two Collingwood players ran forward of the ball unopposed. It was like... "I am on this guy".

Hit. Nail. Head.

When a team gets a run on, the players start playing for themselves.

This has been going on for more than 10 years  :(

...was a thought that occurred to me also the other day, maybe many blokes don't agree with Murph as Captain? Maybe they're not behind the Skipper. Reckon there might just be something in this; that there is disharmony in the ranks!

Yeah, because it couldn't be Mick. ::)

FWIW, I don't think this bunch has ever been tight.

Clearly remember Walker and Simmo bagging Armfield (not to his face) at a training session at the WACA.
There's rarely been a vigorous response to opposition aggression.
The goal celebrations are almost non-existent.

If anything it's got worse in recent years.

Yeah, because it couldn't be Mick. ::)

FWIW, I don't think this bunch has ever been tight.

Clearly remember Walker and Simmo bagging Armfield (not to his face) at a training session at the WACA.
There's rarely been a vigorous response to opposition aggression.
The goal celebrations are almost non-existent.

If anything it's got worse in recent years.

Yep if you were in the trenches with this lot you would be on your own......

When a team gets a run on, the players start playing for themselves.

I remember watching Ed Curnow Blanket a man next to a Player with a free kick, while two Collingwood players ran forward of the ball unopposed. It was like... "I am on this guy".

There must be or has been someone or something at the club during the tenure of these guys that has caused them to be like this? It would be highly unlikely for ALL or even many of them to have this trait built in surely? In other words, it's more likely to be something they've learned at the club over years. What could be the common denominators?
Culture (onfield/off field)  inherited by the group from a previous time?
Coaching - been a problem, by degree, under multiple coaches?
Prolonged lack of effective leadership (lack of) - like growing up without a father can be detrimental?
Recruitment selection - bad psych profiling?
All of the above?
I give up, but maybe someone closer to the club could answer?

Well what happened to Mick's 'common goal' crap he was talking about when he arrived at the club. Another epic fail.

Well what happened to Mick's 'common goal' crap he was talking about when he arrived at the club. Another epic fail.

TBH, I am not sure our players know what our goals are. That is a problem with the coach, but the players are not innocent either.

They did, the selection needed the blessing of those higher up though.

...and let's face it, if the coaches have signalled a preference for Murph the players would just fall into line. Plus I bet there was some politics involved.... you know, afraid of losing Murph as the contract talks are near so dangle the Skipperdom as a carrot  ::)

Just listened to Rowey talk and he handled himself well, as does Hendo... but Murph seldom comes across well in the media when he opens his cakehole, not a blight on him as a player but doesn't help in the leadership stakes.

When a team gets a run on, the players start playing for themselves.
I remember watching Ed Curnow Blanket a man next to a Player with a free kick, while two Collingwood players ran forward of the ball unopposed. It was like... "I am on this guy".

There must be or has been someone or something at the club during the tenure of these guys that has caused them to be like this? It would be highly unlikely for ALL or even many of them to have this trait built in surely? In other words, it's more likely to be something they've learned at the club over years. What could be the common denominators?
Culture (onfield/off field)  inherited by the group from a previous time?
Coaching - been a problem, by degree, under multiple coaches?
Prolonged lack of effective leadership (lack of) - like growing up without a father can be detrimental?
Recruitment selection - bad psych profiling?
All of the above?
I give up, but maybe someone closer to the club could answer?

I have no idea either but I suspect it's 'All of the above'. shadesy has articulated something that drives me mad. You'd think these habits/attitudes would be easy to fix but ... no.

Another thing I've noticed is the way we corral an opposition player in a one on one situation so that he's completely hemmed in, only to have another Blues player leave his man and try and help out. For the love of God, WHY?!?  Opposition player then has an easy handball or chip over the top to the (now) loose man and they're away.  Happens time, after time, after time, ...

There must be or has been someone or something at the club during the tenure of these guys that has caused them to be like this? It would be highly unlikely for ALL or even many of them to have this trait built in surely? In other words, it's more likely to be something they've learned at the club over years. What could be the common denominators?
Culture (onfield/off field)  inherited by the group from a previous time?
Coaching - been a problem, by degree, under multiple coaches?
Prolonged lack of effective leadership (lack of) - like growing up without a father can be detrimental?
Recruitment selection - bad psych profiling?
All of the above?
I give up, but maybe someone closer to the club could answer?

I don't think the club have the answers.
They haven't fixed it.
I put this up before but removed it because it was bit long winded (and a bit self indulgent ;)).
I'll stick it up again.
I want to make the point that many of us argued these traits over the last ten years, not just me....
but these are just a selection of my posts.
It doesn't identify a cause but it does show it's not a recent phenomenon and something quite a few of us have been banging on about for over 10 years

8/6/ 2013

We're still a team of individuals.

Some are brilliant individuals.....but there seems to be an unwillingness at times to work 'for' or 'with' others.

We often get the individual super performance, like Waite last night, but when that happens others, for whatever reason, go missing.

Until we get that individualism out of the system and start working as a unit we won't improve.

I'm watching the Swans in action at the moment. They work 'for' and 'with' each other.....there is a brilliant "Team".

3/7/2009

The most important thing we need to do is to move away from the period of the 'individual' that has plagued us for many seasons.
During the dark days.....and it probably began pre Pagan, the Carlton side changed from the consumate 'team' mentality of the 1990's to a team of individuals.
In some cases it was forced by the necessity of survival.
Players played to ensure that their place was secure without too much emphasis on the team side of things.
We retain on our list a number of players who went through the worst of this period and there are arguments that some of that 'selfishness' has been retained in the make-up of some of these players.
The task is to slowly turn this list over so that we have a team of players that are committed and prepared to sacrifice aspects of their game for the greater good of the team.
We do have some examples of these 'selfless' players on our list but unfortunately their ability has not always matched their determination and application.They have however been given a fair bit of game, sometimes much to the 'disappointment' of fans who have been derisive in their comments and continually surprised how such 'duds' could get a game. Their time is probably drawing to a close and they will soon be replaced, hopefully by youngsters with a similar attitude but with greater skills.

30/6/2008

Too often over the last 5-6 years we have had a team of individuals playing for their own futures and afraid to make mistakes.Some of them have looked after themselves at the expense of doing the team thing. I understand that because that was the culture...every man for themselves.
I think it was largely subconscious but......
When you're going that bad as a team it was probably understandable to be subconsciously a bit selfish.
There were, over this period though, a couple of players that bucked that trend and tended to do the team things at the expense of their own game.

29/3/2008

I think the basic problem we face is the same problem we've faced in recent years.........
We look and play like a group of individuals, not as a 'team'. There are some very talented individuals out there, some also play with a bit of passion and display enthusiasm when goals are kicked etc..... but they still play with little system and understanding.

The only solution for that is time..... but in the last five years we've turned over players at such a rate that in respect of 'team' development we're back to scratch. Hopefully players like Judd and Hadley who have been parts of successful teams can short circuit this process.
Here's a problem I always have with the 'list is no good' argument.
(and let's take Denis out of the equation or we all know where this will end up  ..... but draw your own conclusions  )

2/3/2007

Australian Football is not a game of individuals.
It's a team game.
Names on a team sheet can look mighty impressive but it's how they combine and complement one another that is important.

You can have a team of very good players but if their main concern is individual performance and not working hard for one another they will still as a group produce an ordinary performance.

The Carlton teams I remember as successful have always had very good players but it was the understanding and confidence in one another they
possessed that made them special.

I think the thing that has frustrated me most in the last few years has been the inability to perform as a team rather than a lack of individual brilliance.

4/12/2005

The TEAM element is an important aspect.

You can have a list of very talented individuals but unless they combine as a group Premierships are a long way off. That was the main difference between our Wizard Cup performances and a couple of games towards the end of the season and the season as a whole.
On most occasions during the year players seemed to be too concerned about their own individual performances rather than supporting one another and playing a Team game.

Now the combination we're talking about takes a time to develop. A perfect example of a TEAM performance was our 1995 group. They had an understanding, particularly in defence, and a commitment to one another that had developed over many games of playing together.

We've just gone through a radical reconstruction of our playing list that is still continuing. Until this process settles down and we get a stable list of players with a number of years of playing together we are unlikely to have the TEAM understanding required to win Premierships.

Great players don't win Flags, Great teams do. That’s what I'm looking for in terms of development over the next couple of seasons.

25/5/2005

At the moment our side are playing as individuals. It's a common theme in a number of threads as Nicole points out. You can understand 'why'. Because the vast majority are fighting for their footballing survival and the constant changes to personnel mean the side is never allowed to settle.

Let's start tanking games some say. Or as it's more properly put "maximise our draft selections."

But you see, what will happen is that a couple of the most talented youngsters in the land will be brought into a group lacking in confidence, fighting for their own individual places and looking over their shoulders at the 'new' threats to those places....because they don't work as a team here.

Let's have another cleanout at the end of the year some say. Were not going to get much at the trade table for any of them. They're a group of "rejects" (some twice over) from a struggling club. We'll just have to delist them. So if we haven't got anything to trade we're not going to get those low draft picks to supplement the ones we've already "earned." 

But at least we'll have some new blood.

But, But, But.....How long will it take this new blood to settle in?
How long will it take them to bond together?
How long before they undertand the strengths and weaknesses of their team-"mates"
How long before they can support them?
How long before they'll be prepared to take a hit for them.
Before they'll put their body on the line for them.
Before they'll run and jump and bump until their bodies are totally spent because they don't want to let the TEAM down.

...and they're just my posts...the scary thing is you could take any one of them and drop them (names aside) into last week’s post match (this) thread.

It doesn't identify a cause but it does show it's not a recent phenomenon and something quite a few of us have been banging on about for over 10 years

...and thats why we need to change the culture of the place. Everyone is too focused on themselves and not enough on the team.

Juddy said, and i agree, that we signs of that towards the end of last year. So much so that it played a part in him agreeing to play on.

What has changed?
Why did it change?
When can we get it back...and improve it further?
How do you get it back and improve it?

...and thats why we need to change the culture of the place. Everyone is too focused on themselves and not enough on the team.

Juddy said, and i agree, that we signs of that towards the end of last year. So much so that it played a part in him agreeing to play on.

What has changed?
Why did it change?
When can we get it back...and improve it further?
How do you get it back and improve it?

I know the answer and it won't be popular.

The players will only disintigrate further whilst the future is uncertain. 

You would have to speak candidly one on one with the playing group, and find out where they are at in regards to the coach, their future and their teamates.

You will never get 44 blokes to all get along, but they need to start acting like they are a family.  

That means setting the head of the household right.  If the majority are behind Malthouse then you would have to make a statement and sign him up immediately sending the message you are either with him or you are out.

Vice versa,  if the majority are against him you can placate them all again one on one and simply state that they will need to put their best foot forward to impress the next bloke coming in, or even to ensure their future at Carlton. 

You can't really put them on notice they will simply play for themselves and the environment seems miserable enough already.

As a side plot I think we need to encourage the guys to do some team building with the fans.  If we can't perform on the pitch mamaybe they can kick some goals off it, by working with some under privileged parts of our society.  They might appreciate what they have that little bit more for it.

Sad it's come to this really.

While I don't completely disagree

What happens if we ask the question and get an almost 50/50 split Thry

Little observation:

During the Rottingwood game last Friday night, leadership blokes Rowe, Hendo and Murph were busting a gut. Now before I am howled down re Hendo, it is my hunch that the bloke came into the game under an injury cloud and twanged the hammy early on hence being useless - that he played told me he desperately wanted to help out in MMs milestone game, but it turned out disastrous for him. MM impresses upon us that we do not take very suspect blokes into games (though most blokes take niggles into games)... Hendo was very suspect, you only need to look at how he pulled up the week prior and grabbed at his hammy and calf the week prior.

180 degrees from these blokes (including Armfield and the kids), attitude wise, was the lame effort from Gibbs. Folks, I saw it first hand here in NZ the week prior, the Gibbs disinterest. And as I mentioned in a previous post, folks next to me at the game, knowing little about the game and obviously invited along as a part of the occasion (ANZAC day), unsolicited, mentioned loudly to each other how 'weak' no. 4 was. His apathy stood out that much. It was embarrassing to watch his lack of effort. He only contributed more after EVERYONE ELSE HAD LIFTED... easy stuff.

Why has this bloke become a liability on match day? Why is he a shadow of last year? Why does he just not give a toss at present? As a member/shareholder of the club we have a right to have this situation addressed and explained, honestly. At present the Gibbs presence on the field is 'anti leadership', especially by example.

Gibbs should not be playing this week based on form and ATTITUDE. This is a test for MM who has claimed that out of form blokes do not get a gig.

My bigger problem with the Gibbs lack of effort and attitude is the influence and effect this has on the rest of the team. This issue demands explanation and action. Blokes with this kind of attitude and form, getting a gig, only sends one message to the young blokes - reputation gets you games at the CFC, not bona fide form, attitude and contribution.

Little observation:

During the Rottingwood game last Friday night, leadership blokes Rowe, Hendo and Murph were busting a gut. Now before I am howled down re Hendo, it is my hunch that the bloke came into the game under an injury cloud and twanged the hammy early on hence being useless - that he played told me he desperately wanted to help out in MMs milestone game, but it turned out disastrous for him. MM impresses upon us that we do not take very suspect blokes into games (though most blokes take niggles into games)... Hendo was very suspect, you only need to look at how he pulled up the week prior and grabbed at his hammy and calf the week prior.

180 degrees from these blokes (including Armfield and the kids), attitude wise, was the lame effort from Gibbs. Folks, I saw it first hand here in NZ the week prior, the Gibbs disinterest. And as I mentioned in a previous post, folks next to me at the game, knowing little about the game and obviously invited along as a part of the occasion (ANZAC day), unsolicited, mentioned loudly to each other how 'weak' no. 4 was. His apathy stood out that much. It was embarrassing to watch his lack of effort. He only contributed more after EVERYONE ELSE HAD LIFTED... easy stuff.

Why has this bloke become a liability on match day? Why is he a shadow of last year? Why does he just not give a toss at present? As a member/shareholder of the club we have a right to have this situation addressed and explained, honestly. At present the Gibbs presence on the field is 'anti leadership', especially by example.

Gibbs should not be playing this week based on form and ATTITUDE. This is a test for MM who has claimed that out of form blokes do not get a gig.

My bigger problem with the Gibbs lack of effort and attitude is the influence and effect this has on the rest of the team. This issue demands explanation and action. Blokes with this kind of attitude and form, getting a gig, only sends one message to the young blokes - reputation gets you games at the CFC, not bona fide form, attitude and contribution.

If you saw it, then you'd have to assume the rest see it as well as the coaching staff.

If he doesn't get dropped, what does that tell you?

...1 that we're not ruthless enough.

2 MM/selection talk with forked tongue.

3 That there might be some issue with Gibbs that is personal that we don't know about and the club is supporting him through it (to on-field detriment).

...1 that we're not ruthless enough.

2 MM/selection talk with forked tongue.

3 That there might be some issue with Gibbs that is personal that we don't know about and the club is supporting him through it (to on-field detriment).

Just trade him out for a first rounder and try to sweeten a third rounder to a second if possible. Maybe he was one of those players playing for a contract Judd was talking about. Something is just not working between his ears.

There was a bloke or two in the VFL who showed genuine hardness at the contest who should get a gig in front of Gibbs... and this is a tragic reality, Gibbs is a sublime talent... but no point having a Bugatti Veyron if the driver is a balloon foot.

Gibbs is a talented player and as he showed last season he is capable of being harder and capable in contests...I just get the feeling he has decided this season is lost, rebuilding isnt part of his brief and he isnt going to knock himself out playing with a team that will be bottom four  most likely...

If we win some games and improve I reckon Gibbs will see some light and lift his workrate and contesting.....but if not he will just coast along like he has been doing...

Gibbs is a talented player and as he showed last season he is capable of being harder and capable in contests...I just get the feeling he has decided this season is lost, rebuilding isnt part of his brief and he isnt going to knock himself out playing with a team that will be bottom four  most likely...

If we win some games and improve I reckon Gibbs will see some light and lift his workrate and contesting.....but if not he will just coast along like he has been doing...

Unfortunately true.

Gibbs is a talented player and as he showed last season he is capable of being harder and capable in contests...I just get the feeling he has decided this season is lost, rebuilding isnt part of his brief and he isnt going to knock himself out playing with a team that will be bottom four  most likely...

If we win some games and improve I reckon Gibbs will see some light and lift his workrate and contesting.....but if not he will just coast along like he has been doing...

x3. This looks a very likely mindset. It would make more sense than to think there is something physically wrong with him. It also explains why he isn't trying to impress his coaching staff. However Murphy and at least a dozen others look like they have put their cue back in the rack for the season too. How damaging for a winning culture is it to let this information to get into the hands of the media ?

While I don't completely disagree

What happens if we ask the question and get an almost 50/50 split Thry

Then you need to make a decision based upon what Mick is capable of doing, acknowledging who said yay and nay.

Voss got sacked to Brisbanes detriment.   They have lost a few talented blokes for not much compensation and all in one hit. Despite having recruited well, it appears as though they are going to struggle for a while.

I actually think that the only way forward is to back in the coach actually.   It will make a statement of you are with us or gone.

But I don't know the full story.

My gut says that we need to come through something like this and come out the other side relatively unscathed with people all buying in and the only way to get there is to truly act united as it sends the message that you are in, with us or not. 

I can't see how you can spruik the United message, then sack the coach because of what appears to be disunity.  United means together through thick and thin.

You could equally cut the coach loose and hire a new bloke, but you would have to search rigorously, put a five year contract on the table with no ifs buts or maybes and never resort to.sacking that coach in order to make the same statement.

I'd rather extend Malthouse for two than the alternative.   We have very poor judgement at selecting the right person for this sort of job, and I can't see a five year contract ending well.

The problem is now though that folk are so disillusioned with the leadership of the club that they have no faith in the messages that are being put out.

The talk of a rebuild seems to have sucked the life out of the place....not the least amongst the playing group.

The question of the coaching position hasn't been resolved or settled by this "rebuild declaration" as some suggested it would be (at least for the remainder of this season)....if anything it's increased speculation.

Unity can't come from our (the supporter) level....it doesn't work like that....we don't have the ability to "steer the ship."

It has to come from a spark or an inspiration from above that tells us that this is someone or some group worth uniting behind.

So far I don't believe anyone is showing us anything of the kind

The problem is now though that folk are so disillusioned with the leadership of the club that they have no faith in the messages that are being put out.

The talk of a rebuild seems to have sucked the life out of the place....not the least amongst the playing group.

The question of the coaching position hasn't been resolved or settled by this "rebuild declaration" as some suggested it would be (at least for the remainder of this season)....if anything it's increased speculation.

Unity can't come from our (the supporter) level....it doesn't work like that....we don't have the ability to "steer the ship."

It has to come from a spark or an inspiration from above that tells us that this is someone or some group worth uniting behind.

So far I don't believe anyone is showing us anything of the kind

Agree....Rebuild is like saying we are in limbo for 3-5 years,....its all about how you sell it...Bulldogs are rebuilding but all I hear is exciting youngsters...you never read or hear the  dreaded" rebuild" term...

The problem is now though that folk are so disillusioned with the leadership of the club that they have no faith in the messages that are being put out.

The talk of a rebuild seems to have sucked the life out of the place....not the least amongst the playing group.

The question of the coaching position hasn't been resolved or settled by this "rebuild declaration" as some suggested it would be (at least for the remainder of this season)....if anything it's increased speculation.

Unity can't come from our (the supporter) level....it doesn't work like that....we don't have the ability to "steer the ship."

It has to come from a spark or an inspiration from above that tells us that this is someone or some group worth uniting behind.

So far I don't believe anyone is showing us anything of the kind

Yep, we require strong leadership at the club.

We want to emulate Port Adelaide without the Kochie element which is change the coach.

Spells danger imho.

We forget that Port still have players representing their club that played in their last premiership.  They have roots of the right stuff there, and the coach that was in charge prior to Hinkley was also a bloke who played in a flag, and actually laid a fair bit of a foundation with them before he started.  Ironically we thought we had similar with Ratten, but clearly he wasn't allowed to do the coaching role as a senior coach should have, and perhaps that is ultimately why our playing group's developement stalled.  History appears to be repeating itself.  2.3 years into a senior coaches tenure.  We have the barebones of a new list and a game plan and we feel we should change direction for some reason, probably more to do with the ego of our footy club than the actual place we are in. 

Primus never played in a flag Thry, he was injured for the latter part of his career. He certainly didn't lay any foundations for Hinkley either the team were an embarrassment under him and going backwards at a rate of knots.

Primus never played in a flag Thry, he was injured for the latter part of his career. He certainly didn't lay any foundations for Hinkley either the team were an embarrassment under him and going backwards at a rate of knots.

Apologies, he was captain at the time, so given he was part of the leadership group of a premiership team I didnt fact check.

Still it proves that he was part of a team, and the leadership group of a team, that had what it takes.

Now whether or not he didnt or did lay the foundation for Hinkley is up for debate, but I feel its folly to give Hinkley the plaudits, for a side that Primus had worked with for two years prior to him taking over.

Particularly Chad Wingard.

Now whether or not he didnt or did lay the foundation for Hinkley is up for debate, but I feel its folly to give Hinkley the plaudits, for a side that Primus had worked with for two years prior to him taking over.

Are we going to credit Mick's first 2 flags to Todd and his first two GFs at Collingwood to Shaw?

Both those were pretty soon after taking over.

We have gone so far off topic on this thread. 

Are we going to credit Mick's first 2 flags to Todd and his first two GFs at Collingwood to Shaw?

Both those were pretty soon after taking over.

When I say the plaudits, I say all the plaudits.

IMHO, a player will get bits and pieces from every coach they work under across the journey and usually the bloke they work with the most will have the most input in what they are like as a player.

It can be argued that many of them gain more through junior footy than they will at senior level with the only thing really changing them there being proffesional athlete status.

Pagan and Ratten are as responsible for the apathy that many of our players show today (if they were coached by them) as Malthouse.

Apologies, he was captain at the time, so given he was part of the leadership group of a premiership team I didnt fact check.

Still it proves that he was part of a team, and the leadership group of a team, that had what it takes.

Now whether or not he didnt or did lay the foundation for Hinkley is up for debate, but I feel its folly to give Hinkley the plaudits, for a side that Primus had worked with for two years prior to him taking over.

Particularly Chad Wingard.

Haha mate seriously you speak some absolute boloney sometimes. Give Primus credit for what Hinkley has done? Your cred mate not mine.

We have gone so far off topic on this thread.

You want to talk about this match??  ;D

Pagan and Ratten are as responsible for the apathy that many of our players show today (if they were coached by them) as Malthouse.

We pay Mick to fix it, not add to it.

We pay Mick to fix it, not add to it.

Has he done either, or is he just treading water!

We pay Mick to fix it, not add to it.

BOOM.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/dawn-discipline-for-humiliated-carlton-players-20150507-ggwqxk.html

The boys cop some rough justice after last Friday! Hope it does some good.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/dawn-discipline-for-humiliated-carlton-players-20150507-ggwqxk.html

The boys cop some rough justice after last Friday! Hope it does some good.

Good to see and good that it's driven by the leadership group.