When Cripps is 'on' he can be an inspirational leader.
I actually preferred Docherty when the last lot of discussions for Captain came up, but injury has had a big impact.
And there is the issue.
Cripps appears to struggle through seasons these days and I suspect (more often than we may realise)..... plays injured.
Docherty may never return to the consistent effectiveness he displayed pre-injury.
The longevity of both is uncertain.
We have two young players who are almost guaranteed 8-10 year+ starting 22 certainties.
I believe they've shown enough in on-field leadership through their playing efforts that they'd fit comfortably into the role.
But I guess those closer to the club would have a better idea as to the all round suitability.
If they do get the tick....
At the end of this year should we make the change to a Weitering/Walsh dynasty to take us forward with a bit of stability for an extended period.
No Co-Captains....a traditional Captain/Vice Captain (in whatever combination)
Docherty should do the right thing and stand down tomorrow. He's not up to the task and hardly ordained to it. Too long on the sidelines
Docherty is brave on and off the field and didn't have a great night but the bloke will take a hit for the team and kudos to him.
Not many on our list will show his commitment.
Think both him and Cripps would be better players without being Co captains.
Weitering is the obvious choice...
Docherty is brave on and off the field and didn't have a great night but the bloke will take a hit for the team and kudos to him.
Not many will on our list will show his commitment.
Think both him and Cripps would be better players without being Co captains.
Weitering is the obvious choice...
Agree. He seems to be made of the right stuff for the job.
Docherty is brave on and off the field and didn't have a great night but the bloke will take a hit for the team and kudos to him.
Not many will on our list will show his commitment.
Think both him and Cripps would be better players without being Co captains.
Weitering is the obvious choice...
Agree.
When Cripps is 'on' he can be an inspirational leader player.
This isn't news to anyone who visits this forum.
I don't know what deal the club has done that requires this guy to be captain, but it's cruelling his career!
Making your best player the captain by default is dead set dumb, you'll never see Dusty captain of Nthmond.
The trouble is to keep Cripps in the fold he has to be the one making the call, if we kibosh him he'll be done with the club!
People are puzzled by Doc, but it's pretty simple, he's got one good eye and under the current rules he's got next to no time to get a good look around him. Opposition clubs are now focussing on his bad side, it is AFL and being nice leaves you as road kill, it's tough but it is what they do, yet somehow I feel it's not what we would do and that in itself is a problem! We play nice, we've been doing that since the AFL whacked us in the early 2000s.
Weitering wasn't ready until now, but he clearly is ready now and last night is proof of that. I know quite a few on here doubt him, but not me, most of our D50 problems stem from our midfield and forwards. We've too many guys who go flat stick towards the goals and half-rat pace the other way! If there is to be a bias in the system, it has to be the exact opposite of what we do!
The trouble is to keep Cripps in the fold he has to be the one making the call, if we kibosh him he'll be done with the club!
Do we know this though?
One of the big criticisms of Cripps at the moment seems to be that "He tries to do too much. He tries to do it all"
How much of that is the responsibility he feels in being Captain?
Is it different to the way he played before he assumed the captaincy?
Would not being Captain have a positive effect on the way he plays?
Is he that type of personality that "he has to be 'the man' or he walks"?...if that's the case it's maybe a reason why he shouldn't be boss.
Absolutely agree that it's not necessarily your best player who should be captain.
It's an easy option to choose that player.
But having said that there have been quite a few who fitted both roles, so it becomes more about the person than their ability.
A true leader has nous but does not feel the need to do everything himself and to hog all the glory. He instead makes sure everyone knows their role and encourages and supports/assists each player to play their role to the absolute best of their ability. He also plays his own role with maturity and avoids costly and team deflating mistakes. I believe we are seriously lacking this kind of leadership. Love him or hate him, Hodge was that type of leader.
Do we know this though?
One of the big criticisms of Cripps at the moment seems to be that "He tries to do too much. He tries to do it all"
How much of that is the responsibility he feels in being Captain?
Is it different to the way he played before he assumed the captaincy?
Would not being Captain have a positive effect on the way he plays?
Is he that type of personality that "he has to be 'the man' or he walks"?...if that's the case it's maybe a reason why he shouldn't be boss.
Absolutely agree that it's not necessarily your best player who should be captain.
It's an easy option to choose that player.
But having said that there have been quite a few who fitted both roles, so it becomes more about the person than their ability.
Either way I see the captaincy is the problem, it either contributes to the problems or prevents us and him correcting them!
I like the idea of a floating captaincy based on reward for effort. Or perhaps one constant captain, and one floating co captain. Whoever is the BOG this week, gets to captain next week. It would boost morale, it would spread the load and stress, it would help to cover injury and loss of form, and it would be a bit of a carrot for the players IMO. Imagine if someone like Cottrell was captain / co captain for a week. Of course, the players would need to be briefed and educated in the off season, but you never know..............
The Carlton captaincy is a poisoned chalice ATM.
Yep I wouldn't make weitering captain.
It seems to draw a massive x on this player for opposition to target.
Cripps can be a fine captain.
His issue is that he's worrying too much about his own game and everyone seems to be hitting him up accordingly too (I noticed we kicked to him when we shouldn't have many times last night).
This won't be a popular choice, but I think plowman will be a better choice for captain. I think he's one that might take a few by surprise.
Still, cripps just needs to ease up a bit and docherty will be fine. Last night he wrecked his shoulder so badly that two regulation marks led to him conceding goals because it was a fresh hit. The fact he got up and went over and over again was extremely sacrificial and inspirational.
I think we should tinker as minimally as possible. The club lacks consistency on field because our approach off field has been anything but consistent and its time to build it slowly.
We have a raft of young talent we don't see much if or hear about which is cause for a bit of excitement. Guys like Philp, honey, kemp, Carroll, stocker etc are going to be the layer of player we uncover over the next few years and people are going to be surprised as they've been developing on slow heat without the continuous pressure from being thrown to the wolves.
Can;t make Plowman captain, does give away the odd free when people get in his face.....which would happen more.
Give it to Walsh.
Kid hasn't put a foot wrong since being called with the #1 pick, despite the entire world around him crashing and burning more often than not.
Rising star in his first year.
Best yound player in his second (best player in their first or second year in the AFL)
This year he is taking his game to another level. Batman and Robin? More like Robin and Batman. He is outperforming Cripps!
Is unflappable. Well liked and respected. TEAM ORIENTED. A guy that players will want to do the right thing for.
Weiters for VC.
My personal view is that we put someone in the position who-
1) Is (barring a serious injury) a long term proposition (i.e still relatively young)
2) Is an almost certain starting 22 player for the duration of his career.
At the start of next season Cripps will be 27, Docherty 28...both have had injuries, issues that suggest they won't play deep into their thirties. Cripps is especially suspect given the physical way he plays the game.
If we're building a side for the long term we need long term leadership.
Walsh or Weitering seem to be the obvious choices.
My personal view is that we put someone in the position who-
1) Is (barring a serious injury) a long term proposition (i.e still relatively young)
2) Is an almost certain starting 22 player for the duration of his career.
At the start of next season Cripps will be 27, Docherty 28...both have had injuries issues that suggest they won't play deep into their thirties. Cripps is especially suspect given the physical way he plays the game.
If we're building a side for the long term we need long term leadership.
Walsh or Weitering seem to be the obvious choices.
Either Walsh or Weitering would make excellent Captains. Jack Silvagni is made of the right stuff also, whether he is long term or not only the Richmond bloke can answer that.
I have never been a fan of co-captains; it smacks of reluctance to make a decision.
It seems to me that Cripps is hell-bent on leading by example and that is encouraging him to try to do too much. Docherty has his hands full as a defender with the new rules and it's not a good look when our co-captain is beaten and told about it by the opposition.
However, I'm not inclined to write either off as our captain. I'm also not inclined to persevere with both as captain next season. It is a big job these days and I would like to see it shared around more. I'd have Weitering as captain in 2022 with Cripps and Docherty as vice-captains. 2023 would see Cripps back as captain with Weitering and Walsh as vice-captains. Walsh would be captain in 2024 with Weitering and Docherty (depending on form) as vice-captains.
Not a fan of co captains or the old pick your best player/s as captains either.
DJ makes a good point about Cripps wanting to do everything onfield but cut the oranges at the breaks, and its been a poorly managed situation without much guidance to either Cripps or Docherty.
Poor old Doc has battled on manfully with injury and illness and should have been rested from the burden IMO.
Sometimes as Collingwood and Geelong showed you pick a Joe average player talent wise but one who can manage and organise both on and off field well ie Maxwell and Harley and who all players/factions respect.
Looking back I think Ed Curnow might have been a good Maxwell/Harley for us and absorbed the pressure better....Cripps has almost become OCD like in his efforts to win games on his own and is murdering his own game as a result and just racking up the clangars. I know taking the job off Cripps might offend him and give him reason to doubt re-signing but I think someone close to him who he trusts has to tell him its time to concentrate on your own game and pass the baton on.
Maybe not to Walsh or Weitering either or though the latter seems the obvious choice. I have been having second thoughts seeing how much it has damaged Cripps and dont wish to pass the baton onto our young stars and mess them up either.
I have never been a fan of co-captains; it smacks of reluctance to make a decision.
It seems to me that Cripps is hell-bent on leading by example and that is encouraging him to try to do too much. Docherty has his hands full as a defender with the new rules and it's not a good look when our co-captain is beaten and told about it by the opposition.
However, I'm not inclined to write either off as our captain. I'm also not inclined to persevere with both as captain next season. It is a big job these days and I would like to see it shared around more. I'd have Weitering as captain in 2022 with Cripps and Docherty as vice-captains. 2023 would see Cripps back as captain with Weitering and Walsh as vice-captains. Walsh would be captain in 2024 with Weitering and Docherty (depending on form) as vice-captains.
Largely agree but Docherty IMO will not be around in 2024 ..
I was going to make this a new thread but since we’ve re-visited the Captain situation I’ll whack it here….
Before I start, I want to emphasise that these are just personal observations and feel free to offer any alternative opinions or information. What I’m looking at is the coach/ captain connection over the last 20 years and considering whether it might have been a significant factor in our stop /start endeavours.
We’ve discussed the last 20 years in some depth over the years. We’ve all had different opinions on what has kept us at a level that has never really risen above average. One of the things that may not have been looked at closely is the Coach - Captain interaction.
One of the features of our most successful years was that they always seemed to occur with strong figures in the role of Captain (Nicholls, Jesaulenko, Fitzpatrick, Kernahan). I’d argue that in the last twenty years we haven’t had that ‘strong’ leader. Kouta, Judd and now Cripps are exceptional players. They have tended to lead by example, but they haven’t necessarily demonstrated the leadership qualities we have seen from Captains of other sides or eras. Added to that there have been question marks over some of the relationships with the coach (Kouta/ Pagan being the prime example.)
So taking a quick look at the Coach- Captain combinations…
2002 Wayne Brittain- Brett RattenAfter making the finals in 2001, a horror run of injuries saw Carlton collect their first ever wooden spoon. Ratten only played twelve games for the year. Only 2 of those were wins. The players and Brittain seemed to be a very close knit group. The players were given a lot of opportunity to participate in the direction under the Parkin/ Brittain regime. Did that also come with a high degree of respect or did the players regard Brittain as a mini-Parko? What was to come next was probably a bit of a shock because the new coach had different ideas about coach player interaction.
2003 Denis Pagan- Brett Ratten/ Andrew MckayRatten only played 7 games under Pagan before injury ended his career in round 10. There were a few issues surrounding the announcement of his retirement that gave the feeling it was a bit of a rush, but Ratts was clearly done. Vice Captain McKay took over but retired at the end of the year. How much of their bond with Brittain carried over into that first season under Pagan is an unknown, but Pagan’s desire to retire off a few of their team-mates may have been a factor in their relationship. In any case it wasn’t a long one. The next Coach-Captain relationship was (from all evidence) anything but a happy one.
2004-2006 Denis Pagan- Anthony KoutoufidesSomeone mentioned PassIt2Carrots in another thread. A prolific poster in his time, Carrots’ first thread was titled something along the lines of “Kouta hates Pagan”. A rocky old relationship. When your Captain and other members of the leadership group have secret meetings on a boat with the club powerbrokers to lobby for the coach’s demise…. you’re pretty well ‘rooted’ (coach and club).
2007-Denis Pagan- Lance WhitnallWhitnall was part of the “boat trip”. His view of Pagan and his methods were probably pretty aligned with Koutas'
2007- Brett Ratten- Lance WhitnallWhitnall only played 3 games under Ratten.
2008-2012 Brett Ratten- Chris JuddJudd was appointed Captain almost before he stepped off the plane from WA. What did he think of Ratten in the initial stages? His previous coach at West Coast was amongst the very best around. Did he see Ratten as someone with ‘training wheels’ at the time? Whatever, it seemed to work OK and saw our most successful period of the ‘dark ages’
2013-2015 Mick Malthouse- Marc Murphy.In comes Malthouse-out goes captain Judd. What was the conversation between the two at the time? We can only guess if it was a mutual agreement, or not. Judd spoke very highly of Malthouse after Malthouse’s departure from Carlton describing him as a ‘wonderful coach’.
It’s hard to get a handle on the Murphy- Malthouse relationship. It’s a fact that Murphy publicly backed and supported Mick right until the end. Malthouse suggested that in fact players like Murphy and Gibbs weren’t fans of the Blue’s board and their plans to rebuild. Whether Mick was using these players as ‘press-ganged allies’ in his battle with the board can only be guessed at.
It’s hard to know how Murphy really felt privately. When asked to describe his realtionhip with Mick his response was just “OK” ….he added “that’s been and gone now. I’ve come out the other side and I’ve really improved as a person, as a leader, I’ve learnt a lot about myself, about my team, about the footy club,”
2015 John Barker- Marc MurphySuch a limited time there is probably not much to say. Not really a factor given the caretaker role.
2016-2018 Brendon Bolton- Marc MurphyThe relationship seemed to start OK.
“Murphy said Bolton’s arrival and emphasis on treating players as people, not just as footballers, was the perfect attitude for the Blues’ playing group.
“When you analyse yourself as just a footballer, when football isn’t going so well everything seems to get on top of you. I think blokes have probably been overwhelmed over the past couple of years by looking at their football too much and overwhelmed by it,”
(perhaps a shot at Malthouse)
Bolton came with a brief to rebuild the side. Players like Murphy were probably given different roles. Younger players were given more opportunity at roles he would previously have filled.
So did Murphy’s opinion change over the ensuing years?
His comments on the change between Bolton and Teague during that caretaker period seem to suggest they may have. It give the impression that the players found the Bolton plan a bit complicated…
He's (Teague) great at building relationships. I think he's been enormous in that area since he came to the club.
"And he just keeps things really simple. He's big on guys playing their role and understanding what that requires, and guys are really buying into that at the moment."
but you just don’t know how much of these comments were just company line PR.
2019 Brendon Bolton- Sam Docherty/Patrick CrippsOn Bolton’s demise…
Patrick Cripps
"It didn't work out the way he would have liked, but I can't question the amount of work he did for us as a group. A lot of respect for him."
Sam Docherty (who missed significant playing time under Bolton but did spend a lot of time in a semi-coaching position alongside Bolton)
A month after the Blues changed their AFL senior coach, co-captain Sam Docherty said he had rung Bolton to pass on his thanks and see how he is going.
“He’s not in the best place, which you can understand when you’ve lost your job,” Docherty told RSN on Thursday morning.
“I think he wants the club to do really well and obviously he’s wishing us all the best.
“But everyone would be naive to think he’s going rosy, he’s left footy and he’s going unbelievably well.
“I don’t want to divulge too much about how he’s going … but I called him to thank him for everything he’s done for the footy club.”
Obviously a deep respect for Bolton from both his Co-Captains but they moved on fairly quickly….
2019 -David Teague and Sam Docherty/ Patrick CrippsSo in the caretaker period Cripps stated he was firmly on the Teague train….
If the decision was up to Cripps, the club's brightest star, Teague would be given a contract tomorrow.
"The way the boys have been playing the last few weeks, the growth is definitely building," he said.
"Teaguey has brought the best out of certain players in different roles. The boys are buying into those roles…………
"I've really loved having him as a senior coach ... he's been awesome."
Docherty also backed Teague
https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/234645/captain-backs-infectious-teague
Now all those comments have to be treated with the cautionary note that there would be some club expectations on what the players say.
One more thing that needs to be considered is the dual captaincy.
I personally think it’s a shocker.
It has the potential to factionalise and present mixed messages.
So how important is that Coach- Captain bond?
Can we see that importance in other clubs.
Can we learn from them in our choices?
Do we see a trend in performance when there is either a disconnect or total lack of connection between Coach and Captain?
Should we do away with the dual Captaincy? (I vote ...yes!)
It depends. You would have to be inner sanctum to know whats going on with the players factions and groups.
I think eb1 is on the money when the captain has to be universally liked and respected without being the best player.
These types are sacrificial types. Their game can go backwards for the good of the team.
Judd should have handed over captaincy to simpson. Universally respected amongst our players and possibly the oppositions too. Their fans generally thought he was the right type too.
I see only a few players that fit the bill and keep fronting up each and every week. Ed curnow. Only part that is a problem is he doesn't really cry out leader. Eddie betts. Problem is its last year. Weitering. Im worried that our captaibs have become a target for the opposition last few years and that he and walsh will be nullified by the opponents more readily and frequently if we go down that road.
That leaves me with an unlikely type. Lachie plowman. Something tells me this guy is more respected at the club than outside it and his b and f stats over the last few years tell a story.
Given how cursed our captaincy has been im more inclined to pick plowman as the next captain. He strikes me as a nick maxwell type who punches out of his weight limit often, helps his mates often and probably gives more of himself to his teammates to help them out at his own expense.
Despite all our limitations, we seem to still struggle for leaders with bona-fide credentials and all seem to lack something in those stakes.
Notwithstanding my thoughts earlier in this thread, I think it's worth exploring whether the concept of captain is still useful, or whether in the modern era, a leadership group is sufficient. I think diffusion rather than focus would address several of the issues. I know we already have leadership groups, but I think spreading the roles and responsibilities of the captain / vice captain among this group is the way forward.
We must avoid having a captain who is clanger prone. Nothing worse than to not be walking the talk for deflating team morale. We need someone who sticks to and emphasizes doing the basics well and is a Mr Reliable atm.
We must avoid having a captain who is clanger prone.
Well Crippa and Doc shouldn't be captains then, I think Doc is leading the comp in OOTFs and Crippa in front of goal? Thats all there for everyone to see,
Thry's Plowman idea has merit, the only hesitation I have is his form is up and down and he tends to get the most difficult opponent so he has enough on his plate without having to be captain.
Maxwell and Harley played with great teams and were political appointments due to factional differences.
Both didn't have to be important players in the team structure.
Hurn is another example at WC... Good player but not vital to the team.