Carlton Supporters Club

With us performing so poorly against out other traditional enemies, I can only wonder what we'll show against this mob of Drug Cheaters.

If we lose it, I will lose it

Essendon are pretty soft and play a nice friendly brand so we should have the edge in this one and should be more battle hardened after two hard games. They have no size down back and are being forced to play Flipper Philips in the ruck.
Add to that they have a heap of newbie kids in the team so we should roll them comfortably...Blues by 5 goals with one leg in the air. Harry to kick 7 and McGovern and Williams to play their best games...

Could be a few changes for this game.
Newman and TDK might be available....Jack isn't too far off.

Danger game

Could be a few changes for this game.
Newman and TDK might be available....Jack isn't too far off.

Snowballs chance in hell they will come straight in from injury

Snowballs chance in hell they will come straight in from injury

Never know, could be Teagues last stand, Got the Dogs and Dees after the Cheats which dont look like wins based on
present form of those teams who are both flying..
 

If we lose to the Bombers and follow that up with losses to the Bulldogs and Melbourne Teague's job will be on the line against the Hawks.

Snowballs chance in hell they will come straight in from injury

I'd swap TDK for Casboult in a heartbeat.....even if TDK was missing an arm.

....and Newman for SPS....would you do it? ;)

Playing for "double points"

The significance of a win or loss will be magnified due to the club we're playing. ;)

Essendon are very ordinary and down on important players this should be a good win.

I'd swap TDK for Casboult in a heartbeat.....even if TDK was missing an arm.

....and Newman for SPS....would you do it? ;)

On paper looks good but are they ready? Newman to defence and give SPS a run in the midfield.

I'd swap TDK for Casboult in a heartbeat.....even if TDK was missing an arm.

....and Newman for SPS....would you do it? ;)

110% I'd do it, look at my 2022 side. That wasnt why I said no chance though, I just dont think either will come straight in with at lease one game in the twos especially TDK.

dons pace worry me ,they run and spread pretty quickly . We all know we cant apply 4 quarter pressure so i hope things change .

Essendon are very ordinary and down on important players this should be a good win.

Dunno where the confidence comes from, a 1 point win will do me. Its not like we are Port Adelaide.

Please dont play Plowman on Tippa.

Please dont play Plowman on Tippa.

SPS did a good job on him in a recent game....

SPS did a good job on him in a recent game....

Id suggest Tippa was off, SPS is too slow for him. In any case, I would expect Samo to play mid/wing/fwd like he did last night.

SPS did a good job on him in a recent game....

Plowman might get Stringer......

Plowman might get Stringer......

Saad Tippa?

Saad Tippa?

Saad started on Cameron and then got moved off him, dont think Saad likes too high a level of responsibility and is better with a less impressive opponent so he is free to attack more.
I would have said Stocker but he is starting as a newbie again and Tippa is a tricky opponent...

The Scum are serving it right up to the Filth (2 goals up), its nonsense to think next week is an easy win.

The Scum are serving it right up to the Filth (2 goals up), its nonsense to think next week is an easy win.

Agree. Bombers are hot and cold, but when they're hot, they're pretty good.

Agree. Bombers are hot and cold, but when they're hot, they're pretty good.

We'll wipe the floor with them. % boost for the BlueBaggers.

We'll wipe the floor with them. % boost for the BlueBaggers.

I hope so.

Saad started on Cameron and then got moved off him, dont think Saad likes too high a level of responsibility and is better with a less impressive opponent so he is free to attack more.
I would have said Stocker but he is starting as a newbie again and Tippa is a tricky opponent...

Plowman and Saad kept swapping but I'm not sure why? I think Brisbane were trying to bring Saad back to the goal square.

Tippa has 5

Parish 42 disp and two goals.

I hope you blokes that think next week will be a walk in the park are right. Bombers don't look bad at all, certainly by our standards. 

Never know, could be Teagues last stand, Got the Dogs and Dees after the Cheats which dont look like wins based on
present form of those teams who are both flying..

For some reason we seem to like playing the Dogs. They'd have to be due to go bad...lol.

For some reason we seem to like playing the Dogs. They'd have to be due to go bad...lol.

True, maybe we cop them on their off night with some injuries, like to see Treloar and Naughton out...

Parish 42 disp and two goals.

Had the game of his life , glad it was against Collingwood, soft player who I think wont be able to back up this week...

Parish 42 disp and two goals.

And the Anzac Medal. Should look good on the CV.

I thought Phillips and 2 Meter Peter played well. You'd think one or both of them would spend time on Harry.

Phillips would be handy for us at the moment.

I hope you blokes that think next week will be a walk in the park are right. Bombers don't look bad at all, certainly by our standards. 

They did play well and its interesting how they have gone some big positional changes ie Laverde at Full Back and Parish into the middle along with a rotating Stringer. Two metre Peter also looks a handy pickup, strong mark and very accurate kick, I can remember your good self saying you thought he might be a good buy at the time.
Saying all that its Essendon and like us they can go from Chocolates to Boiled lollies real quick , bit of a test for Cripps this week
with Langford who has been a nemesis in recent games but Im still confident we have more talent on the park and can get the job done and have a handy win. In the middle and down forward I think is where we win the game, their backline is undersized without Hurley and Hooker and players like Parish wont be getting 42 easy possies like today..

They did play well and its interesting how they have gone some big positional changes ie Laverde at Full Back and Parish into the middle along with a rotating Stringer. Two metre Peter also looks a handy pickup, strong mark and very accurate kick, I can remember your good self saying you thought he might be a good buy at the time.
Saying all that its Essendon and like us they can go from Chocolates to Boiled lollies real quick , bit of a test for Cripps this week
with Langford who has been a nemesis in recent games but Im still confident we have more talent on the park and can get the job done and have a handy win. In the middle and down forward I think is where we win the game, their backline is undersized without Hurley and Hooker and players like Parish wont be getting 42 easy possies like today..

I hope you're right Elwood. I think we should just win by a goal or two, but I don't say that with any great confidence.

I hope you're right Elwood. I think we should just win by a goal or two, but I don't say that with any great confidence.

We thrashed them by a point last year due to a Liam Jones falcon saving the day....lol.

This week I want to see midfielders play in the midfield, defenders playing in defence, not the other way around.

I hope you're right Elwood. I think we should just win by a goal or two, but I don't say that with any great confidence.

Your making me nervous Paul... :) I am relying on the law of averages, the every dog has its day theory ,plus its Essendon and we might get more intensity from the players for a longer period in this game.

This game against the cheats is a game we should win without a doubt. Hence the law of averages that we have experienced in the past, a win for us should be dismissed immediately. I hate the cheats and actually supported the Pies today. How sick am I. Backing the filth. Not enough alcohol will get me through round 7. Please don’t go 2 from 7 this next round boys. Teague can’t continue to promote what we are trying to build. Eventually minimal results will cost him. We lose this game and you can forget finals footy. The math just won’t stack up. The next 4 games will kill our seasons progress. Let’s just forget honourable losses and pull the trigger.

It’s your bottom 5 or so that count as they tend to make critical mistakes under pressure and our bottom 5 is way off the pace at the moment. As unfair as this may seem, I think that we can now confidently say that if all of Newnes, Plowman, Murphy, Betts, Casboult play we’re a very good chance to lose.  We can probably afford 2-3 of that group at most.

It’s your bottom 5 or so that count as they tend to make critical mistakes under pressure and our bottom 5 is way off the pace at the moment. As unfair as this may seem, I think that we can now confidently say that if all of Newnes, Plowman, Murphy, Betts, Casboult play we’re a very good chance to lose.  We can probably afford 2-3 of that group at most.

Murphy isn't in our bottom 5.

Thats why we don't win.

Dunno,  watching the games he doesn't seem to scare the defenders with his manic pressure acts and tackling.

It's not just what Murphy is doing it's what his man is doing too, we have too many players getting plaudits for supposed good games because they got a few touches but then when you look at what their opponent has done it's a different story and that's nots just confined to Murphy that goes all the way up to the chain to players like Cripps.
We would have to be the worst team at manning the opposition up and having players standing around guarding fresh air.

sMurph is doing OK as a SF, for every goal he kicks he'd have a hand in another at the moment.

We just do not have enough good and creative ball users to chop guys like sMurph and Betts, our real problem might be how we can get the most out of them in the twilight of their career, at least until we get some genuine replacements.

sMurph is doing OK as a SF, for every goal he kicks he'd have a hand in another at the moment.

We just do not have enough good and creative ball users to chop guys like sMurph and Betts, our real problem might be how we can get the most out of them in the twilight of their career, at least until we get some genuine replacements.

Looking at it from another viewpoint, which of the two blokes you just mentioned applies the most defensive pressure, causing turnovers and opportunities? Eduardo.

However, in the foreseeable future it really will be a mute point as both will have retired and we'll have two younger small forwards to rely on.

Both have been outstanding contributors to the CFC... in difficult times. Fortunately, Eduardo will not be lost to the club as he (hopefully) will become the forwards coach and we can p155 off the Go Dees bloke.

Both have been outstanding contributors to the CFC... in difficult times. Fortunately, Eduardo will not be lost to the club as he (hopefully) will become the forwards coach and we can p155 off the Go Dees bloke.

@Baggers‍ I'm not a fan of closing shop, you can end up like the Filth drinking your own bathwater!

Club's just need to be astute about appointments.

On the sMurph vs Betts issue, if sMurph wasn't pushing up the field to get on those chains of exits from D50 then Betts would have to, and that would be an opposition win as it puts Betts too far away from goal. I'm not sure you can expect much more than a goal or two per game from sMurph playing that role.

Betts kicked 0-4-4pts at the weekend, we only lost by 18pts. I thought it was the bad old Betts at the weekend, the one who flies against taller team-mates and isn't at the fall of the ball. We were smashed at the fall of the ball in our own F50, but that is not sMurph's fault because he was often in the chain of possessions out on the wing.

We miss Fisher, I see sMurph / Fisher as more interchangeable than sMurph / Betts or Betts / Fisher. Betts is there for a very different role.

Is this a player or a coaching problem we are discussing?

Watch Tipungwuti get a heap of cheap frees this week!

Yesterday the guy basically ducked his head and head/shoulder charged into opponents, in NRL that is a reportable offense, in AFL against the Filth he gets a free kick, it'll be even worse against us as we aren't the umpires favourites!

Not sure what is going on with Stocker, because I didn't see the VFL game a week before, but that 30 possessions must have been spectacular because he was horrendous on Saturday. Stage fright, it won't be any better next week!

What is worse, this kid can kick, and yet he looked timid and indecisive and couldn't hit a barn!

Not sure what is going on with Stocker, because I didn't see the VFL game a week before, but that 30 possessions must have been spectacular because he was horrendous on Saturday. Stage fright, it won't be any better next week!

What is worse, this kid can kick, and yet he looked timid and indecisive and couldn't hit a barn!

A lot of our players seemed to be in 'over arousal' mode which often leads to skill errors and panic decisions.

Not sure what is going on with Stocker, because I didn't see the VFL game a week before, but that 30 possessions must have been spectacular because he was horrendous on Saturday. Stage fright, it won't be any better next week!

What is worse, this kid can kick, and yet he looked timid and indecisive and couldn't hit a barn!

I think he needs more time in the 1's. VFL footy is at a lower level to senior footy. He played 5 games in 2019, 0 in 2020, and 1 this season. Plus taking time out for personal reasons.

I think he needs more time in the 1's. VFL footy is at a lower level to senior footy. He played 5 games in 2019, 0 in 2020, and 1 this season. Plus taking time out for personal reasons.

Yep...First game back vs a very decent team and everyone under pressure didnt make for a easy transition back into senior footy.
Looked off the pace with the speed of the game, Essendon are very quick as are the Dogs so he has a couple of weeks of doing it tough and I wouldnt be playing him deep in defense where he may get a bit nervous.
He is still a kid learning and I know we want the odd messiah player or two to evolve but I dont think he is at that stage yet.

Yep...First game back vs a very decent team and everyone under pressure didnt make for a easy transition back into senior footy.
Looked off the pace with the speed of the game, Essendon are very quick as are the Dogs so he has a couple of weeks of doing it tough and I wouldnt be playing him deep in defense where he may get a bit nervous.
He is still a kid learning and I know we want the odd messiah player or two to evolve but I dont think he is at that stage yet.

Yes, agree.

Not sure what is going on with Stocker, because I didn't see the VFL game a week before, but that 30 possessions must have been spectacular because he was horrendous on Saturday. Stage fright, it won't be any better next week!

What is worse, this kid can kick, and yet he looked timid and indecisive and couldn't hit a barn!

Very harsh on a 6 gamer (none last year). Sprayed one badly through goals but couldn't hit the side of a barn?

The next three weeks are pretty important.
2-4 at the moment
History tells us you need to win at least 12 to play finals (unless one of the sides above you is a bit dodgy with their substances).
As it is we have to win around 10 out of the remaining 16....very, very difficult.

If that becomes 10 out of 13 that 's probably when we'll pull the plug and the older players will give way to the youth and experimentation (again  ::) )

For me I think the sad thing is this.

If we played with the same intensity over the first few rounds that we've shown at times in the last two weeks against Port and Brisbane we'd probably be 3-3 or 4-2 instead of 2-4. We seem to react rather than act.

Very harsh on a 6 gamer (none last year). Sprayed one badly through goals but couldn't hit the side of a barn?

One, he missed 3 or 4 targets by tens of metres.

I'm not a Stocker basher, I know this kid can kick the eyes out, what the feck has gone wrong, what have our coaches done to him?

One, he missed 3 or 4 targets by tens of metres.

I'm not a Stocker basher, I know this kid can kick the eyes out, what the feck has gone wrong, what have our coaches done to him?

Probably nothing much.  Kid just played senior footy for the first time in 2 years and we were under siege for periods.

Him and Cunningham need to get the dow, o brien, Setterfield treatment and give them a chance to find their feet at this level.

re stocker...
Just throwing it out there, but despite dominant form in the 2's and the AFL media (and a lot of supporters) calling for us to play the kids.....be careful what you wish for.

People calling for us to drop Murphy, Betts, Newnes, SPS etc......for who? For more Stocker type performances?

Now, don't get me wrong, i wanted Stocker in, i'd keep him in again this week, but there is a reason why those kids are in the 2's not the 1's.

So lets make sure everyone tempers their expectations.

Now, don't get me wrong, i wanted Stocker in, i'd keep him in again this week, but there is a reason why those kids are in the 2's not the 1's.

So lets make sure everyone tempers their expectations.

I think many of us in the boat, we want the kids in when they deserve to be in.

BB gifted kids games, and where did that get us?

The big question is why are so many of our talented kids failing, player development?

I think Eddie needs to hang the boots up and mentor Fisher, Durdin and Owies for the rest of the season, if he wasnt Eddie he would have been dropped a while back as his form has been ordinary IMO.
He shouldnt have got the extra year and his time is up, I'm sure he is great for memberships and ambassador role stuff but the game has caught up with him and he looks like an old bloke playing with the kids. Yep he will kick the odd Eddie trick goal from the impossible angle and give another away but thats not going to be the norm IMHO and we are carrying him at the minute.
Teague has to tap him on the shoulder and offer him a role off the field which will probably be more important anyway if he can help make a small forward out of those players I mentioned.

I think many of us in the boat, we want the kids in when they deserve to be in.

BB gifted kids games, and where did that get us?

The big question is why are so many of our talented kids failing, player development?

I don't think the kids are failing per se, I think the system we use to develop them is rubbish.  Our conversion rate of turning draftees into good, solid footballers must be one of the worst (if not the worst) in the competition. 

I would have thought that when you put a ground-up rebuild in place, the one element that is non-negotiable is a development process that delivers the goods.  Yet here we are, 4-5 years on, and it seems clear that the process we have used is no good. 

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/shock-treatment-time-for-a-big-name-blue-to-fall-says-rhys-jones-20210426-p57mba.html?fbclid=IwAR0aGQd2RNJo4-ZAKE74_8QU4BxBuBRAyW9bBw9tjabC6iuj-tSSQ3aS2DM

Carlton great David Rhys-Jones has called on the Blues to make a big-name statement at selection in a bid to “shock” the struggling side into gear ahead of Sunday’s key clash against arch-rival Essendon.

Rhys-Jones, the 1987 Norm Smith medallist, said veterans Marc Murphy, Eddie Betts and Levi Casboult should face the axe and allow youngsters to be given an extended run in a side which has slumped to 2-4 and faces a defining month against the Bombers, Western Bulldogs and Melbourne.

The big question is why are so many of our talented kids failing, player development?

I'll answer your question with a question.....or questions.

If we draft a player who is a small forward. Has played small forward his whole life and wants to continue to be a small forward.
Then you pick him for the 1's......and you play him as a ruck. How do you think that player will go? How will his confidence go? How many games will he get before being dropped for underperforming? How will his confidence go after being dropped?

So why can't we develop players???

I'll answer your question with a question.....or questions.

If we draft a player who is a small forward. Has played small forward his whole life and wants to continue to be a small forward.
Then you pick him for the 1's......and you play him as a ruck. How do you think that player will go? How will his confidence go? How many games will he get before being dropped for underperforming? How will his confidence go after being dropped?

So why can't we develop players???

"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/shock-treatment-time-for-a-big-name-blue-to-fall-says-rhys-jones-20210426-p57mba.html?fbclid=IwAR0aGQd2RNJo4-ZAKE74_8QU4BxBuBRAyW9bBw9tjabC6iuj-tSSQ3aS2DM

Thats the we are done for the season lets play the kids approach which probably means the coach is done if the target was finals.
Liddle and co wont admit defeat unless they have a fall guy, bit early IMHO to go dropping every oldie on mass....I'd start with retiring Eddie and working a kid into his role.

"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."

Yep. Pretty simple isn't it.

I'll answer your question with a question.....or questions.

If we draft a player who is a small forward. Has played small forward his whole life and wants to continue to be a small forward.
Then you pick him for the 1's......and you play him as a ruck. How do you think that player will go? How will his confidence go? How many games will he get before being dropped for underperforming? How will his confidence go after being dropped?

So why can't we develop players???

I'll see you that question and raise you another.
Who takes responsibility for that?
Is it the recruiting...I notice a few folks are now looking at Silvagni's time at the club a little more critically.

Is it the team selections.
I get that sometimes it's really valuable for a players development to play multiple roles.
You give a forward some time in the backline to develop a defensive side to his game.

But so many of our players seem to be 'playing out of position'.
SPS and Stocker strike me as more mid-field, or in SPS's case a mid/forward.
Kennedy is not a wingman by any stretch, yet seemed to be playing there in his last game.

How many in-game moves have we seen this season to shake things up a bit?
I remember McGovern in the backline for a spell but I think that was when Weitering was injured for a bit.

I struggle to remember too many other in-game moves of significance.
We seem to set up and that's the way it stays.
But I'll stand correcting.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/shock-treatment-time-for-a-big-name-blue-to-fall-says-rhys-jones-20210426-p57mba.html?fbclid=IwAR0aGQd2RNJo4-ZAKE74_8QU4BxBuBRAyW9bBw9tjabC6iuj-tSSQ3aS2DM

“I don’t like naming players that should be dropped, it’s unfair on the group, on those players in particular, but the guys that I have mentioned are over that 30-year-age bracket and they are not producing..................

Then in the next paragraph.....

...............We have older blokes in there that are not producing – you look at Murphy, Betts and Casboult as the three that stand out, aren’t they?”

You have to laugh.

I'll see you that question and raise you another.
Who takes responsibility for that?
Is it the recruiting...I notice a few folks are now looking at Silvagni's time at the club a little more critically.

Is it the team selections.
I get that sometimes it's really valuable for a players development to play multiple roles.
You give a forward some time in the backline to develop a defensive side to his game.

But so many of our players seem to be 'playing out of position'.
SPS and Stocker strike me as more mid-field, or in SPS's case a mid/forward.
Kennedy is not a wingman by any stretch, yet seemed to be playing there in his last game.

How many in-game moves have we seen this season to shake things up a bit?
I remember McGovern in the backline for a spell but I think that was when Weitering was injured for a bit.

I struggle to remember too many other in-game moves of significance.
We seem to set up and that's the way it stays.
But I'll stand correcting.

Who takes responsibility? Its a good question, but not an easy answer.

I'll take this back to why i wanted Malthouse to begin with. He knows what it takes to set up a successful club, He knows how it is supposed to run and who does what and where the responsibility lies. Those above him thought they knew better and undermined him. Not sure where they got that self belief from, but i think it is misplaced.

So since then we've seen a whole lot of not much. More of the same.

What are we doing to change it? Who knows.
I think we have improved as a club. There are no blowouts, we can match it with the best. We just need that little bit of extra confidence to push us up over the peak and it should snowball from there.

Teague and the MC need to walk a tight rope. Get wins AND develop kids. As we've seen, those 2 are at odds with eachother.
He's been hamstrung by injuries which means he just picks 22 fit blokes who can handle AFL level footy, and a handful who are can, but are out of form miss out.

Overall, i think the development will improve, now we have a dedicated reserves side. Hopefully we can keep the wolves at bay until that starts to pay off. Hopefully we can get a lot less numbers on the injury list at the same time.

Now, going back to who is at fault for any/all of the above. I don't think it is Silvagni. I think he has brought together a more talented list than we've had in a decade and he's done so with very little poker chips to start. The best thing he did was cover holes.
He started with KPPs. Weitering, Curnow, McKay....then added smaller types SPS, Cuningham, Dow, Obrien, Walsh etc. He had a good mix of talls/smalls as backups. Overall a balanced list.

Since his departure, we've recruited some high end talent (on the back of some more wins) but our list balance has been turned on its head. We have zero backup in the KPD and Ruck department and we have an abundance of half back types. So much so that we can have 4 on the injury list and still a solid defence on paper....with some kids developing as well.

What does that do for your development though? Players are forced to play out of position. You try and reinvent players to cover gaps, rather than play players to their strengths. Confidence takes a hit and development stalls.
Kennedy was played as a wing because we have a lack of wingers on the list. We played LOB early on because we have a lack of wingers on our list. LOB couldn't play the role, Kennedy couldn't play the role. Who can? Setterfield doesn't know if he is a back pocket, an inside mid or a winger. His form has struggled as a result. My boy Newnes can be adequate across a few positions, that being one of them. Murphy is playing there as well and its highlighting the fact he doesn't run both ways.

So.....who is responsible.
1. Lady Luck for injuries.
2. Austin for poor list balance
3. MC for playing players in the wrong positions.

....all of the above IMO.

Newnes has been okay playing his role, even Betts was still our most dangerous small forward out there.

Don't look at disposal numbers to look for blame as you will always unfairly target the wrong players.

The reason we lost is because their best players were better than our best players.
Cripps had 25 touches but was easily our worst player. We would have been better off without him.

The reason we lost is because their best players were better than our best players.

...and thats why i did my little prediction leading into the game. They are simply a better side than us. There is no shame losing to better sides. We cannot compete for a full 120 minutes with the best sides. We are improving, but we still have a way to go.
it doesn't mean we should start again simply because we are not there yet.

...and thats why i did my little prediction leading into the game. They are simply a better side than us. There is no shame losing to better sides. We cannot compete for a full 120 minutes with the best sides. We are improving, but we still have a way to go.
it doesn't mean we should start again simply because we are not there yet.

It's hard to accept that our best 2 players from a couple of years ago, our captains who should be in the prime of their careers are just B grade now. Docherty is not going to get better so we will have some tough decisions as we can't play he and Plowman in the same backline. Not sure what's going on with Cripps but he is really stinking it up, mate just texted me that he had 11 clangers on the weekend which is not surprising.

Silvagni?  I will NEVER give him credit for recruiting obvious number one picks that any idiot would have nominated.  Look a little deeper for his busts ... there's a lot of them.

That's my strong opinion and nobody is about to change it.  He was woeful

It's hard to accept that our best 2 players from a couple of years ago, our captains who should be in the prime of their careers are just B grade now. Docherty is not going to get better so we will have some tough decisions as we can't play he and Plowman in the same backline. Not sure what's going on with Cripps but he is really stinking it up, mate just texted me that he had 11 clangers on the weekend which is not surprising.

Apart from Cripps clangars his direct opponents are also hurting us, I thought Lyons was very good player for Brisbane, that 50m pass to Hipwood on the run for a goal was a gem.
Be interesting how he goes this week, in a couple of previous Essendon games he has been tagged by Langford and struggled...

Apart from Cripps clangars his direct opponents are also hurting us, I thought Lyons was very good player for Brisbane, that 50m pass to Hipwood on the run for a goal was a gem.
Be interesting how he goes this week, in a couple of previous Essendon games he has been tagged by Langford and struggled...

That's definitely an MC issue, you don't see Selwood's direct opponent run free, the Handbaggers sacrifice for Selwood to run free.

Silvagni?  I will NEVER give him credit for recruiting obvious number one picks that any idiot would have nominated.  Look a little deeper for his busts ... there's a lot of them.

That's my strong opinion and nobody is about to change it.  He was woeful

Well....at least you're open minded and willing to listen to reason.  ::)

Let me try anyway.

Are you happy with Harry McKay? I'll assume, yes.
"Oh but it was an obvious choice" you might say.
Sure, if you wanna go down that path......even though 9 players were picked before him. How is #2 Josh Schache going. An 'obvious' choice behind Weitering....but i digress.

However, you realise that we never had the pick we used to get Harry McKay. So where did we get it from?
Its convoluted, so i'll make it as easy as i can.

Trade 1:
Lachie Henderson -> Geelong 1st round pick

Trade 2:
Geelong 1st round pick + Pick 28 + Pick 77 + Pick 95 ->  Jed Lamb, Andrew Phillips, Lachie Plowman, Liam Sumner + Pick 8.

Trade 3.
Andrew Phillips + pick 61 + Pick 72 -> Pick 57 + Pick 70

Trade 4.
Pick 54 + Pick 63 -> Marc Pittonet + Pick 61

That Pick 8. got pushed back to pick 10 after some bids were matched, but that is the selection we used for Harry McKay.

So....in conclusion
Lachie Henderson being traded out
=
Lachie Plowman
Marc Pittonet
Harry McKay
(as well as Lamb, Sumner and a couple years out of Phillips)

You can thank Silvagni for that.

CBF working out where Charlie Curnows pick came from, but at a guess its from Zach Tuohy trade.

So don't judge Silvagni on the players that were picked up mid or late, and exclude the 'early obvious' picks, because he is the reason we had those early obvious picks and he plucked them out of thin air most of the time.

I appreciate the trouble you've gone to (being dead serious here) but I knew many of those  details anyway.

So I'll repeat it again.  We got stuck with rubbish through his ineptitude.  He has no eye for talent.  The (or my) defence rests.  And if you select poorly, think of the obvious.  You fall down the ladder, you receive a high pick and if a #1 is screaming out at you, you're hardly in a position to pat yourself on the back simply because it succeeds when everyone else knew it would.

I appreciate the trouble you've gone to (being dead serious here) but I knew many of those  details anyway.

So I'll repeat it again.  We got stuck with rubbish through his ineptitude.  He has no eye for talent.  The (or my) defence rests.  And if you select poorly, think of the obvious.  You fall down the ladder, you receive a high pick and if a #1 is screaming out at you, you're hardly in a position to pat yourself on the back simply because it succeeds when everyone else knew it would.

SOS busts (IMO) ??=Jury is out
Dow
Obrien
SPS
Kennedy??
McGovern
Lang
Kemp??
Betts (not his fault, the Richmond bloke is blame for that one)
Plowman
Marchbank
Fisher??
Macreadie
Cunningham
Polson
Williamson??
Fasolo
Glass-McCasker R
Gallucci R
Pat Kerr
LeBois R
Schumacher
Garlett
Oshea
Shaw R
ODwyer
B Silvagni
Goddard R
Bugg R
Deluca
Honey R??
F Phillips R

SOS busts (IMO) ??=Jury is out
Dow
Obrien
SPS
Kennedy??
McGovern
Lang
Kemp??
Betts (not his fault, the Richmond bloke is blame for that one)
Plowman
Marchbank
Fisher??
Macreadie
Cunningham
Polson
Williamson??
Fasolo
Glass-McCasker R
Gallucci R
Pat Kerr
LeBois R
Schumacher
Garlett
Oshea
Shaw R
ODwyer
B Silvagni
Goddard R
Bugg R
Deluca
Honey R??
F Phillips R

Surely the jury is still out in relation to McGovern, Cunningham, Dow and SPS?

Surely the jury is still out in relation to McGovern, Cunningham, Dow and SPS?

Not my jury

Here's the contradiction for me. We're  told players like Dow, O'Brien, Setterfield, Stocker, Cunningham and the like just need to get some consistent game time.
Then we're told...and injuries have a big impact.on our performances.
If these players are struggling for game time when we have a big injury list wont it be the case that they will find it even harder to get games once we have closer to a full list to choose from.

SOS busts (IMO) ??=Jury is out
Dow
Obrien
SPS
Kennedy??
McGovern
Lang
Kemp??
Betts (not his fault, the Richmond bloke is blame for that one)
Plowman
Marchbank
Fisher??
Macreadie
Cunningham
Polson
Williamson??
Fasolo
Glass-McCasker R
Gallucci R
Pat Kerr
LeBois R
Schumacher
Garlett
Oshea
Shaw R
ODwyer
B Silvagni
Goddard R
Bugg R
Deluca
Honey R??
F Phillips R

At least we can't blame him for Dillon Viojo-Rainbow :)

Silvagni?  I will NEVER give him credit for recruiting obvious number one picks that any idiot would have nominated.  Look a little deeper for his busts ... there's a lot of them.

That's my strong opinion and nobody is about to change it.  He was woeful

Yep 100% agree.

The best list managers made there name selecting players that had an impact out of the first round as well as having a good percentage with the first rounders. Take away out number 1 no brainer picks and SOS time was a fail.

You will struggle to find one SOS picked out of the first round that has really made an impact. Maybe you could argue Jack but that’s it.

Well....at least you're open minded and willing to listen to reason.  ::)

Let me try anyway.

Are you happy with Harry McKay? I'll assume, yes.
"Oh but it was an obvious choice" you might say.
Sure, if you wanna go down that path......even though 9 players were picked before him. How is #2 Josh Schache going. An 'obvious' choice behind Weitering....but i digress.

However, you realise that we never had the pick we used to get Harry McKay. So where did we get it from?
Its convoluted, so i'll make it as easy as i can.

Trade 1:
Lachie Henderson -> Geelong 1st round pick

Trade 2:
Geelong 1st round pick + Pick 28 + Pick 77 + Pick 95 ->  Jed Lamb, Andrew Phillips, Lachie Plowman, Liam Sumner + Pick 8.

Trade 3.
Andrew Phillips + pick 61 + Pick 72 -> Pick 57 + Pick 70

Trade 4.
Pick 54 + Pick 63 -> Marc Pittonet + Pick 61

That Pick 8. got pushed back to pick 10 after some bids were matched, but that is the selection we used for Harry McKay.

So....in conclusion
Lachie Henderson being traded out
=
Lachie Plowman
Marc Pittonet
Harry McKay
(as well as Lamb, Sumner and a couple years out of Phillips)

You can thank Silvagni for that.

CBF working out where Charlie Curnows pick came from, but at a guess its from Zach Tuohy trade.

So don't judge Silvagni on the players that were picked up mid or late, and exclude the 'early obvious' picks, because he is the reason we had those early obvious picks and he plucked them out of thin air most of the time.

Throw enough punches in the dark and eventually you hit something. He was a massive fail when you look at sheet number of first and second round picks we had.

If you want to pat him on the back for the few like Harry that worked you are setting the bar very very low imo.

Weitering, Curnow, McKay....then added smaller types SPS, Cuningham, Dow, Obrien, Walsh etc. He had a good mix of talls/smalls as backups. Overall a balanced list.

I don't think many are questioning Silvagni's skill when it comes to accumulating picks.
He was very, very good.
That was his strength.
But folks won't remember that.
It's what he did with those picks that he'll ultimately be judged by

Weitering, Curnow and McKay weren't hard choices in that first draft.
Bozo the clown could have picked them.

It's the Cunningham, Dow, O Brien, even SPS choices that the scrutiny is on.

Blowing bags of earlish picks on GWS players, none of which have become topliners has really hurt as well.   Jaksch anyone.   Then there's Moneybags... Gees we coughed up big for that clown.

Blowing bags of earlish picks on GWS players, none of which have become topliners has really hurt as well.   Jaksch anyone.   Then there's Moneybags... Gees we coughed up big for that clown.

To be fair to sos, sure he drafted Jaksch, but he pissed him off twice...
Drafted to GWS, traded to cfc and then delisted by sos.

At least blame him for the correct bananas if you’re going to pot him...

I don't think many are questioning Silvagni's skill when it comes to accumulating picks.
He was very, very good.
That was his strength.
But folks won't remember that.
It's what he did with those picks that he'll ultimately be judged by

Weitering, Curnow and McKay weren't hard choices in that first draft.
Bozo the clown could have picked them.

It's the Cunningham, Dow, O Brien, even SPS choices that the scrutiny is on.

Ok....so everyone agrees that silvagni can make something out of nothing.

So let's try it this way....
How many games of these kids did silvagni see personally? You'd think that we have an army of scouts all putting in their 2 bobs worth yeah. Given the importance of the top picks, sos would personally oversee them, live, rather than same bloke that may or may not be around at pick 59. Makes sense.

So if we have a good track record of high picks, and a poor one elsewhere, perhaps we need to look at our extended recruiting network that is feeding sos this info?

He is only 1 man after all.

Personally I don't think his (non obvious) picks are as bad as people make out. Someone will always be able to point to a player who came after our pick who is better.....and it's the same for every club. Even still, a talented 18yo and an afl ready player require some kind of development in-between getting drafted and playing. Is that sos' fault too?

Why has nobody comments on my Austin (im)balanced list points? Easier to blame the last guy.


Again, looking at weitering curnow and Harry.
Who went pick 2, Josh shache. Pick 2....what's he done?! Nobody complaining about Brisbane's recruiter for stuffing up the obvious choice.

It's convenient to discredit the obvious successes without realising there are plenty other obvious ones that other teams got wrong.

Throw enough punches in the dark and eventually you hit something. He was a massive fail when you look at sheet number of first and second round picks we had.

If you want to pat him on the back for the few like Harry that worked you are setting the bar very very low imo.

We traded out a 28yo who was average and we got a 10+ year key forward, a #1 ruck and a staple of our defence (multiple top 5 b+f results)

That's a low bar?

Jack Martin for.....nothing
Multiple former first round picks for sfa...a lot of which didn't work, but they cost us nothing so no big deal.
There's a reason our 2nd and 3rd round draftees are not at the forefront of our minds in terms of talent.....we upgraded a lot of them to first rounders and other players!

Murphy isn't in our bottom 5.

Thats why we don't win.

It’s not the only reason Thry ... but it’s a major factor  :(

I don’t think it’s lack of ability; the gameplan, being played out of position, injuries, unbalanced team selection, poor planning, slow response to opposition tactics, momentum-sapping misses by senior players, poor decision-making and questionable player development all play a part.

Ok....so everyone agrees that silvagni can make something out of nothing.

So let's try it this way....
How many games of these kids did silvagni see personally? You'd think that we have an army of scouts all putting in their 2 bobs worth yeah. Given the importance of the top picks, sos would personally oversee them, live, rather than same bloke that may or may not be around at pick 59. Makes sense.

So if we have a good track record of high picks, and a poor one elsewhere, perhaps we need to look at our extended recruiting network that is feeding sos this info?

He is only 1 man after all.

Personally I don't think his (non obvious) picks are as bad as people make out. Someone will always be able to point to a player who came after our pick who is better.....and it's the same for every club. Even still, a talented 18yo and an afl ready player require some kind of development in-between getting drafted and playing. Is that sos' fault too?

Why has nobody comments on my Austin (im)balanced list points? Easier to blame the last guy.


Again, looking at weitering curnow and Harry.
Who went pick 2, Josh shache. Pick 2....what's he done?! Nobody complaining about Brisbane's recruiter for stuffing up the obvious choice.

It's convenient to discredit the obvious successes without realising there are plenty other obvious ones that other teams got wrong.

I disregard Weitering and Walsh because they were obvious and popular choices  by most observers.

I'll also put aside for a moment the less than adequate players we picked up from other teams.

I don't have a lot of issue with the speculative late picks. (Finbar aside)
Silvagni would no doubt be relying on scouters out in that area.

The main area of concern and discussion centres around those higher draft picks.
Dow, O'Brien and even Cunningham were all high picks.
Silvagni would/should  have taken a bit of interest at that level.
SPS...same (he has been a regular player though, so a bit of slack there)

It may be one or more of these players do eventually reach a level where they're regular, consistent performers.
And yes...the development once drafted is equally (perhaps more of an issue) than the recruitment.

But...
The balance you talk about is only achieved if it's solid through all parts.
It's not much good picking a player for that position and, balance, if he struggles to make the team.
Austin may be of the opinion that we needed an upgrade in those areas, even though on paper we've had them covered.

Silvagni gets scruitinised because we have a body of work to evaluate.
It's not all bad or good, but a bit of a mix.
Skilled in some aspects, questioned in others.

Austin's time will come but we haven't seen enough of his picks to judge their impact on the side.
I'm still trying to get my head around why you think his selections have unbalanced the side.

SOS said he wasn't building a team to finish eighth..."anyone can do that"
At the moment I think we'd be quite happy for an eighth.
It would be progress.

Who knows what's going to happen, but I'd take the Band-Aid off and make a few changes.

Out - Betts, Murphy, Newnes, Casboult
In - Setterfield, Dow, Kennedy, O'Brien

B: Plowman, Weitering, Jones
Hb: Williams, Docherty, Saad
C: Cottrell, Walsh, O'Brien
Hf: Fogarty, McGovern, Petrevski-Seton
F: Gibbons, McKay, Cripps
Foll: Pittonet, Stocker
Rov: Cuningham
I/c: Setterfield, Dow, Kennedy, E.Curnow
Emg: Ramsay, Owies, Honey, Casboult

Just on Casboult, he played his best football in the back line where he dominated taking more intercept marks than any defender in the comp. Is there a reason why we haven't put him back there?

Yep
We've drifted a bit away from the pre-match with the recruiting talk.
Save the mods some trouble...
Copy and Paste if you want to reply to any of that and we'll move the recruiting discussion into an appropriate thread.

Back to the Game.
As always if we come ready to play we have the side to beat this mob.
Blues by 24.

Stocker stays but I'd like to see him get some midfield time.
Not sure that anyone from the VFL should be promoted (just yet).
There was little pressure in that game....Honey maybe.

Just on Casboult, he played his best football in the back line where he dominated taking more intercept marks than any defender in the comp. Is there a reason why we haven't put him back there?

Marking is only part of the role, he offers zero run out of defence and is an average ball user.

Marking is only part of the role, he offers zero run out of defence and is an average ball user.

Who is offering us that at the moment?

Who is offering us that at the moment?

No doubt that is a problem, that Levi cannot fix.

It's a pity Parks got injured, and Williamson has developed a case of the chook runs.

Just on Casboult, he played his best football in the back line where he dominated taking more intercept marks than any defender in the comp. Is there a reason why we haven't put him back there?

He is insurance if JW or Jones goes down (heaven forbid)

He is insurance if JW or Jones goes down (heaven forbid)

While Levi takes some nice intercept marks, one on one (body on body) marking contests have not been a big success for him. Isolate him at ground level one on one and you can have a medium forward bring the ball to ground and Levi is out of the contest.

Actually in the context of this week, I think it was losing contests against Stringer that highlighted this the best. Stringer would hold Levi off to tap the ball to ground to his own advantage, then run off Levi. It was too easy. Levi is does not move to the footy naturally, he gives repeat efforts but he always hesitates after a contest.

....Williamson has developed a case of the chook runs.

Developed? I've been calling him Paul bower for a whole now. He's always done it, now people are starting to notice.

I disregard Weitering and Walsh because they were obvious and popular choices  by most observers.

I'll also put aside for a moment the less than adequate players we picked up from other teams.

I don't have a lot of issue with the speculative late picks. (Finbar aside)
Silvagni would no doubt be relying on scouters out in that area.

The main area of concern and discussion centres around those higher draft picks.
Dow, O'Brien and even Cunningham were all high picks.
Silvagni would/should  have taken a bit of interest at that level.
SPS...same (he has been a regular player though, so a bit of slack there)

It may be one or more of these players do eventually reach a level where they're regular, consistent performers.
And yes...the development once drafted is equally (perhaps more of an issue) than the recruitment.

Again, cherry picking to some degree.
Dow, obrien and sps.
No mention of curnow and McKay despite being taken later than those 3.
Fwiw, the dow/obrien draft was an average one.
Cuningham is about on par with most of the others taken around him in that draft.
Perhaps we expect too much?

But...
The balance you talk about is only achieved if it's solid through all parts.
It's not much good picking a player for that position and, balance, if he struggles to make the team.
Austin may be of the opinion that we needed an upgrade in those areas, even though on paper we've had them covered.

Silvagni gets scruitinised because we have a body of work to evaluate.
It's not all bad or good, but a bit of a mix.
Skilled in some aspects, questioned in others.

Austin's time will come but we haven't seen enough of his picks to judge their impact on the side.
I'm still trying to get my head around why you think his selections have unbalanced the side.

Under sos we had senior players in every position and kids coming through in every position.

Under Austin we pushed out Simpson and recruited 2 more hbf/wing types in saad and Williams. We'd pushed out daisy the year before.
We have Docherty, Plowman, Newman, Marchbank, Williamson, sps.... who are afl capable players on the list...and a sprinkling of kids in a similar area.

How many kpd have we got on our list?
Jones and weitering.
We ditched silvagni, finbar, macreadie, Moore and replaced them with nobody.....maybe Oscar who fell into our lap and was good luck rather than good management.

Same with the ruck. Kreuzer out, who was in? We've got tdk and pittonet and....
Casboult??
....and if casboult has to go back to cover for injuries? We've got no key forwards coming through.
How many young kpps do we have on our list?
Zero. Tdk is the youngest (good sos pickup by the way....but nobody talks about him) and the cupboard is bare.

Too many hbfs and no kpps.
That's why our list is unbalanced.

Fwiw, the best list strategy has an abundance of kpps as they are worth more at the trade table....you can trade them for gun mids if you want.

That's poor list balance.

Agreed Kruddler....said the same thing myself in another post about the lack of planning in terms of ruckmen. Pittonet was recruited purely as backup for Kreuzer and a young TDK who was developing. Kreuzer went down in Round 1 last year, while TDK was injured, and since then Pittonet has been numero uno!!!

I agree Casboult's form has been pretty ordinary YTD but who else do we have as a backup ruckman or key forward? I thought his game against Port Adelaide was pretty good.

And if anyone suggests we pull Jones or McKay out of their positions to play in the ruck for short bursts as backup for Pittonet, you're crazy! It's not like we're flushed for blokes in their positions either....not to mention the risk of injury.

And if anyone suggests we pull Jones or McKay out of their positions to play in the ruck for short bursts as backup for Pittonet, you're crazy! It's not like we're flushed for blokes in their positions either....not to mention the risk of injury.

I wouldn't ever consider McKay for the ruck, he's too fragile and also a good mover for ground ball at F50 stoppages.

But Jones might be worth a crack, we can always put McGovern back to float in front of or rotate with Weitering. Jones has to want to do it though, if he doesn't buy in it's a waste of time, but he was surprisingly good at VFL level when Fraser had him sharing ruck duties with Kerr.

Agreed Kruddler....said the same thing myself in another post about the lack of planning in terms of ruckmen. Pittonet was recruited purely as backup for Kreuzer and a young TDK who was developing. Kreuzer went down in Round 1 last year, while TDK was injured, and since then Pittonet has been numero uno!!!

I agree Casboult's form has been pretty ordinary YTD but who else do we have as a backup ruckman or key forward? I thought his game against Port Adelaide was pretty good.

And if anyone suggests we pull Jones or McKay out of their positions to play in the ruck for short bursts as backup for Pittonet, you're crazy! It's not like we're flushed for blokes in their positions either....not to mention the risk of injury.

McGovern is an option for b/u ruck work, has done it before and it would get him involved in the game plus his mobility is a plus. That would mean we can give the out of form Casboult a rest and bring in a more mobile forward, especially for the big spaces of the G.

Developed? I've been calling him Paul bower for a whole now. He's always done it, now people are starting to notice.

He wasn't always like that, when he started he was contested marking gold, but I think injuries have cruelled his way of play. Now he looks like he is trying to be a Simmo but without the physical contact.

What other options do we have in terms of a "mobile forward" if we drop Casboult and play McGovern in the ruck? JSOS is out injured and Kennedy obviously has his papers stamped. Jones is playing his best football as an intercept marking defender. As a ruckman he'll just jump high and bash it....hoping one of our midfielders can latch onto it first....there won't be any science too it.

Speaking of SOS recruits, Jarred Garlett played his first game for Railways up here in the GNFL over the weekend....kicked 4 but wasn't in the best players.

I think our bigger problem is BigH.

He's in good personal form, but he's not doing things right by the team. We want him to be committed to the contest, but we need him to be smarter, in kicking his 6 or 7 he is probably at times costing guys like McGovern, Cripps and Betts easy set shots. Too often BigH is dragging his opponent into the contest when we have a clear advantage inside F50. It's good to see him hungry, but it'd be better to see him get creative.

Fans are all over BigH, but a good percentage of his goals come from team-mates sacrificing and they get no credit, team-mates can't say the same about BigH!

It's like being back in the FevCycle, great to watch, but doesn't really help.

What other options do we have in terms of a "mobile forward" if we drop Casboult and play McGovern in the ruck? JSOS is out injured and Kennedy obviously has his papers stamped. Jones is playing his best football as an intercept marking defender. As a ruckman he'll just jump high and bash it....hoping one of our midfielders can latch onto it first....there won't be any science too it.

I think McGovern in the ruck is fanciful, I'd rather Jones as a backup to the backup ruck and stick McGovern down back to cover.
191cm vs Gawn, NicNat etc is a slaughter, even the Essendon spuds like Philips would enjoy that matchup and thats not McGoverns fault. If he can kick 2 goals a week and stick to the basics like he did vs Brisbane I'll call that a win and be happy to leave him where is comfortable. You also have the injury factor with him, he never plays a full season and having some 100kg plus giant run into him for 5-10 minutes a quarter is looking for trouble IMHO.
We really need to look for another moneyball ruckman as backup and get TDK back in the team.....Stef Martin was such a great pickup for the Dogs, no world beater but a big frame to asborb punishment just break even and let the kid English do his thing.
Pittonet can do that but we need another like Martin as backup as TDK does get injured a bit and Levi is on his last legs as a player.

Who knows what's going to happen, but I'd take the Band-Aid off and make a few changes.

Out - Betts, Murphy, Newnes, Casboult
In - Setterfield, Dow, Kennedy, O'Brien

B: Plowman, Weitering, Jones
Hb: Williams, Docherty, Saad
C: Cottrell, Walsh, O'Brien
Hf: Fogarty, McGovern, Petrevski-Seton
F: Gibbons, McKay, Cripps
Foll: Pittonet, Stocker
Rov: Cuningham
I/c: Setterfield, Dow, Kennedy, E.Curnow
Emg: Ramsay, Owies, Honey, Casboult

Love this Pratty (although not sold on LOB & I’d invest in Honey first)

Who knows what's going to happen, but I'd take the Band-Aid off and make a few changes.

Out - Betts, Murphy, Newnes, Casboult
In - Setterfield, Dow, Kennedy, O'Brien

B: Plowman, Weitering, Jones
Hb: Williams, Docherty, Saad
C: Cottrell, Walsh, O'Brien
Hf: Fogarty, McGovern, Petrevski-Seton
F: Gibbons, McKay, Cripps
Foll: Pittonet, Stocker
Rov: Cuningham
I/c: Setterfield, Dow, Kennedy, E.Curnow
Emg: Ramsay, Owies, Honey, Casboult

I understand your frustration with our side and your wanting to make changes.

But to me the side you have selected just exposes how weak our list is.  For example, Pittonet is the one and only ruckman in your side. Who relieves him?  If we use McGovern, who goes to CHF?

Setterfield and Dow are average at best with ball disposal and like O'Brien can go missing for periods of time during the game.  If they were all to go missing at the same time as Cuningham then we would be in real trouble.

We are so short of KPPs and a ruckman that picking a side with what is available is just changing deck chairs.......

 

Could we pinch hit with Kennedy as a ruck follower?

Hopefully we put everyone back in their right spots. Teague is over complicating it putting blokes in unsuited positions. Williams to half back, Stocker into the midfield for starters. Same for everyone else.

If we play Casboult send him back and either he or Jones can play loose. If we drop Levi then we'll have no choice but to use Jones as a back up ruck. Would we send him forward then to do Levi's, role with McGovern back, or just let him stay in defence and back up ruck from there as Casboult did in 2019?

That is the issue dropping Casboult but he is so badly out of form. Certainly not the right player to come off an interrupted pre-season as he is totally a confidence player. When his confidence is high he plays well, kicks straight, when it's not he is terrible and can't hit the side of a barn door from point blank range.

Could we pinch hit with Kennedy as a ruck follower?

Maybe but he can’t jump

Jones or McGovern could benefit from some time on the ball and as others have said, it wouldn’t be the dumbest thing to play Levi back if we are to retain him. Given results to date,  I’m not sure why we’re so afraid to take a risk.

I just can’t rationalise Newnes over Dow or Setterfield or Murphy/Betts over Honey....we have all to gain nothing to lose! It’s so simple.

I just can’t rationalise Newnes over Dow or Setterfield or Murphy/Betts over Honey....we have all to gain nothing to lose! It’s so simple.

You happy to sacrifice chances of wins....thats what we've got to lose.

You happy to get thumped? Thats what we've got to lose.

Confidence....thats what we've got to lose.

Clubs are looking at Jack Hayes from Woodville West Torrens, 194cm key forward who is now rucking and playing that dual role.
Good athlete, strong mark and someone will pick him up imo.

You happy to sacrifice chances of wins....thats what we've got to lose.

You happy to get thumped? Thats what we've got to lose.

Confidence....thats what we've got to lose.

If we’re banking on a couple of guys 3 years post retirement and an ex- list clogger from st kilda to give us confidence god help us.

Arguably our most important game so far this season.

We need to have our best possible match-ups out there.
We have to be pretty sure with players returning  from injury, and if there's a doubt don't play them.
I don't think we should make too many changes.
These  guys don't have to lift a lot from last week to win this game.
...and a win is pretty vital for a whole lot of reasons.

We can't lose this game, we just can't.

I think this one may be a little kok-teaser win for us. After that business as usual for a few weeks!

We can't lose this game, we just can't.

Hold my beer

Hold my beer

lol.......you gotta laugh, otherwise you'll cry.

FWIW, i've said a few times this year that we were no chance of winning (Tigers, Lions (and port i think)) but was confident we'd beat GC.

Dare i say it, but i reckon we've got this one in the bag.
Less confident than i have been, but i think we will come to play and get the job done.

Ok the question this week would be, could a first up DeKoning give us any less than Levi?

Possible team

Plowman      Jones       Stocker
Docherty      Weitering   Saad
Newnes        Cripps        Murphy
Fogarty        McGovern   Silvagni
DeKoning    McKay       Betts
Pitonett       Walsh       Williams
Gibbons   SPS   Curnow   Cunningham

In:  DeKoning   Silvagni
Out  Casboult   Cottrell (Medical Sub)

Hold my beer

Its not that we are great but Essendon are very average IMHO and coached by a rookie.
We should win easy, they are soft, play an outside game and if we can make it more contested they will fold up.
Saad to be BOG and Harry to kick a bag vs a very ordinary backline...only injuries to key players, poor selections and a woeful performance from the coaching box  would cost us this game IMHO.

Farken ticketing is a joke, made the rookie error of trying to change my seats then ticket allocation was exhausted.

Its not that we are great but Essendon are very average IMHO and coached by a rookie (so are we).
We should win easy, they are soft (so are we) play an outside game (so do we)and if we can make it more contested (doub it) they will fold up.
Saad (they will make it very difficult for him) to be BOG and Harry to kick a bag (so far one week on, one week off for H, this is off week) vs a very ordinary backline...only injuries to key players, poor selections (we are elite at this) and a woeful performance from the coaching box (pretty good at this)  would cost us this game IMHO.

Farken ticketing is a joke, made the rookie error of trying to change my seats then ticket allocation was exhausted.

Somehow I tried and managed to jag tix for free, yay me

Its not that we are great but Essendon are very average IMHO and coached by a rookie.
We should win easy, they are soft, play an outside game and if we can make it more contested they will fold up.
Saad to be BOG and Harry to kick a bag vs a very ordinary backline...only injuries to key players, poor selections and a woeful performance from the coaching box  would cost us this game IMHO.

Their list appeared average but there 2021 form is far from average. Got within a few points of Sydney in Sydney when they were flying and should have beats the Hawks - lost by a point. Smashed Saints and beat Pies in the biggest H & A game of the year. With a few umpiring decisions had of gone there way they could have been 4-2!

Yet we promise the world and have yet to beat any team of note this year. We couldn't get within 3 goals in any of our losses and in some of those games we scored late junk goals or margin would have been worse.  

I'm nowhere near as confident as some on here - Their speed across the ground could really trouble us if there is no rain and being their home game they will get the crowd support as well. 

If we don't bring close to our best they will get us.

  

If we don't bring close to our best they will get us.

Yep!

Their list appeared average but there 2021 form is far from average. Got within a few points of Sydney in Sydney when they were flying and should have beats the Hawks - lost by a point. Smashed Saints and beat Pies in the biggest H & A game of the year. With a few umpiring decisions had of gone there way they could have been 4-2!
.............................................

I'm nowhere near as confident as some on here - Their speed across the ground could really trouble us if there is no rain and being their home game they will get the crowd support as well. 

If we don't bring close to our best they will get us.

Generally agree. We pipped them by 1 point last year, so they have some extra motivation.

They are coming off a shorter week having potential blockbuster fatigue after Anzac day. Get the jump on them early and shunt take the for if the had all game

I understand your frustration with our side and your wanting to make changes.

But to me the side you have selected just exposes how weak our list is.  For example, Pittonet is the one and only ruckman in your side. Who relieves him?  If we use McGovern, who goes to CHF?

Setterfield and Dow are average at best with ball disposal and like O'Brien can go missing for periods of time during the game.  If they were all to go missing at the same time as Cuningham then we would be in real trouble.

We are so short of KPPs and a ruckman that picking a side with what is available is just changing deck chairs.......

 

No I'd use McGovern and/or Kennedy as 2nd ruck/relief ruck. Cripps to play mostly forward to allow kids to be given time and exposed to the top level. All about opportunities ala Darcy Parish at Essendon.

McGovern, to me, does his best work either in defence or with a greater role. Ie, not as the 3rd or 4th banana. I think he needs added focus and responsibility as a focal point. I'd be going with more runners and crumbers so I'd certainly consider Owies or Honey. This happened with McGovern through injury at the start of last year and he was relief pinch hitting ruck. with the two main tall forwards as Gov and JSOS. I think one genuine key forward in McKay with a rotation of smalls and medium types - Kennedy, Silvagni, McGovern as an example. Casboult is getting in the way and offers zero right now. Hoping that changes with him though.

Who says we lose with picking the Cuninghams, Stockers, Dows, Setterfields, Honeys, Owies, etc? Other teams can do it.

We are falling off the pace and it's obvious.

Yes, i agree Brackets needs to be given more responsibility....

KPD role (3rd tall?), with a bit of rucking, bit of KPF.....put the heat on him to stand up for his team mates and the Club.

Well said, Pratty and FB77. Giving Brackets more responsibility could well be the making of him.

Not sure Teague is going to want to experiment and tinker with a smaller lineup given his job is on the line.
The reality is the next three weeks are going to be crucial for the team and his career and I just dont see him messing with too many kids or cute positional changes unless ordered to....

Not sure Teague is going to want to experiment and tinker with a smaller lineup given his job is the on the line.
The reality is the next three weeks are going to be crucial for the team and his career and I just dont see him messing with too many kids or cute positional changes unless ordered to....

Bottom line is that the best CFC listed players in the VFL side were Setterfield, Dow and LOB. Those three with perhaps SOJ returning from injury would be about the only blokes being looked at for a senior call up IMHO. Willo was better but...

Owies had an ordinary game -- and in such a big win, that's not good for a small forward -- Philp is still getting game time after injury, Ramsay is probably the closest of the newbies, Honey is still learning and hot 'n cold, Durdin is a long way off but shows promise. And TDK, Carroll & Newman should be having their first runs in the VFL after injury.

No I'd use McGovern and/or Kennedy as 2nd ruck/relief ruck. Cripps to play mostly forward to allow kids to be given time and exposed to the top level. All about opportunities ala Darcy Parish at Essendon.

McGovern, to me, does his best work either in defence or with a greater role. Ie, not as the 3rd or 4th banana. I think he needs added focus and responsibility as a focal point. I'd be going with more runners and crumbers so I'd certainly consider Owies or Honey. This happened with McGovern through injury at the start of last year and he was relief pinch hitting ruck. with the two main tall forwards as Gov and JSOS. I think one genuine key forward in McKay with a rotation of smalls and medium types - Kennedy, Silvagni, McGovern as an example. Casboult is getting in the way and offers zero right now. Hoping that changes with him though.

Who says we lose with picking the Cuninghams, Stockers, Dows, Setterfields, Honeys, Owies, etc? Other teams can do it.

We are falling off the pace and it's obvious.

The MC may be wrong but it has been in no hurry to give extended playing time to the players you have mentioned.

They are coming off a shorter week having potential blockbuster fatigue after Anzac day. Get the jump on them early and shunt take the for if the had all game

Yep
A bit of 'shock and awe' early on.

I just have a feeling they might be of a similar opinion...thinking that if they apply the pressure we'll wilt.
It may be a bit willing early on, until one side establishes superiority in the pressure stakes.
I think we should be able to best them in that area.
When we're 'on' we're very good.

We can't afford any of those four or five goal lapses though.

Arguably our most important game so far this season.

We need to have our best possible match-ups out there.
We have to be pretty sure with players returning  from injury, and if there's a doubt don't play them.
I don't think we should make too many changes.
These  guys don't have to lift a lot from last week to win this game.
...and a win is pretty vital for a whole lot of reasons.

We're due to kick a but for a week or two until we go back to old habits. Like what happened last year. Great one week, old habits the next until we 5hit out pants in a couple of last qtrs when finals were on the line.

What other options do we have in terms of a "mobile forward" if we drop Casboult and play McGovern in the ruck? JSOS is out injured and Kennedy obviously has his papers stamped. Jones is playing his best football as an intercept marking defender. As a ruckman he'll just jump high and bash it....hoping one of our midfielders can latch onto it first....there won't be any science too it.

Let Jones 2nd ruck as Levi did when he played defence. He'd revel in a run around the ground as he did back in the VFL running around smashing bodies. Probably just increase his confidence further.

We can't afford any of those four or five goal lapses though.

Its in our DNA

Let Jones 2nd ruck as Levi did when he played defence. He'd revel in a run around the ground as he did back in the VFL running around smashing bodies. Probably just increase his confidence further.

I dont see how you can experiment on the fly and play a bloke in a role he has no idea about playing. Jones went from a fwd to a defender, how? By training with the defenders for a whole PS and then playing a string of games in the 2s as defender where he revelled and dominated. Playing him in the ruck just because he is tall and mobile is not a valid reason. When he gets badly beaten, you run the risk of destroying his confidence. We are stuck with Levi as the back up until TDK is ready Im afraid.

I dont see how you can experiment on the fly and play a bloke in a role he has no idea about playing. Jones went from a fwd to a defender, how? By training with the defenders for a whole PS and then playing a string of games in the 2s as defender where he revelled and dominated. Playing him in the ruck just because he is tall and mobile is not a valid reason. When he gets badly beaten, you run the risk of destroying his confidence. We are stuck with Levi as the back up until TDK is ready Im afraid.

Did it brilliantly in the VFL. It was playing the ruck that gained him all his confidence before he went to defence. No issue at at all.

3 goal loss against the cheats. A painful 3 goals. Let everyone hope my medication is failing me. Maybe need to triple the dose.

Surely Levi is so badly out of form he can't be picked....

Suns showed against us a smaller bloke can at least negate the regular size opposition ruck.

Time for DT to change the broken record....

Is it a home game?

No email from the Club this week with code....?

Is it a home game?

No email from the Club this week with code....?

I think it's an Essendon home game.

Is it a home game?

No email from the Club this week with code....?

Cheats home game, do you mean the email to redeem your ticket? I got that one.

Interesting article from the Chief Politicial and Economics Writer  and ardent Carlton man, Phillip Coorey, for the Australian Financial Review.........

"A Carlton fan’s lament
In politics, the mob usually gets it right when it comes to elections. In footy, the fans are no less intuitive, especially the passionate ones.
Phillip CooreyPolitical editor
Apr 28, 2021 – 11.23am
Professional sport and politics are very similar. Both are, in essence, a competition where winning is everything and all else is a distant second.
Not that you can win every time, nor please all the people all the time, be they voters or fans.
High-priced Carlton recruit Zac Williams and rising star Sam Walsh after their team’s fourth loss of the season.  Getty.
Success in politics requires a leader to be of the people but not like them. To a certain degree, sport is no different.
Clubs and their hierarchies need to be in sync with their fans. But it is here that a worrying disconnect has developed between the Carlton Football Club and its 80,000 members and thousands more followers.
In politics, the mob usually gets it right when it comes to elections. In footy, the fans are no less intuitive, especially the passionate ones.
For them, football is a large and important part of their lives, a relief from the drudgery of work and winter, something they study and obsess about, which they can discuss at length with friends and strangers alike.
Sport is the great leveller. These people are patient but not endlessly so. They know the game inside out, and they know when all is not well.
In football, as in politics, winning is everything
What incenses them is being told otherwise by their club’s public relations unit, which writes and publishes match reports that cherry-pick the highlights, gloss over the failings and ultimately bear little resemblance to what they just witnessed with their own eyes.
When fans are angry and hurting, they want to know their club is feeling the same way, not see their coach regurgitating talking points at a news conference and endlessly dwelling on the positives.
They don’t expect perfection and, of course, optimism is important, but so is candour. And passion.
Studying the club’s Facebook page, it is clear the overwhelming majority of Carlton fans feel this way. The disappointment was evident immediately after yet another “gallant defeat” at the hands of Richmond in round one this season.
It wasn’t so much that Carlton has started losing again, but that there has been no discernible step change since last year. Anyone who watched the preseason match against St Kilda, another gallant defeat, could see that.
There is next to no tolerance among the fan base for anything but success. The anger is visceral.
Platitudes and gobbledegook
Carlton has been in strife for the best part of two decades. It was getting back on its feet under coach Brett Ratten, making the finals from 2009 until 2011, until he was sacked and replaced by Mick Malthouse.
This parting gesture by president Stephen Kernahan and CEO Greg Swann was classic old-school Carlton. Buy a solution rather than grow one.
It was a disaster and heralded the start of the downward spiral. Malthouse’s abrasive and polarising manner didn’t work at Carlton. Even from the outside we could all see that.
The club made the finals in 2013, but only after Essendon was disqualified over the supplements scandal.
Around this time, the now-dreaded term “rebuild” began to rear its head, and in 2015, Malthouse was given his marching orders by Kernahan’s successor, Mark LoGiudice.
Brendon Bolton: one of the new breed of Aussie rules theorists. Scott Gelston
In came the hapless Brendon Bolton, a lovely fellow with a good football brain, but one of the new breed of theorists.
Bolton spoke in platitudes and gobbledegook. Green shoots became his hallmark. He spent one summer in Boston doing a leadership course and after that, became unintelligible.
After one particular flogging, he told the news conference the players had “owned their careers tonight”.
To this day, I still have no idea what that meant.
The Carlton hierarchy was so invested in Bolton it refused to acknowledge what soon became apparent to the fans.
This bloke wasn’t going to work either. But many stayed patient and most remained loyal. It was, after all, a rebuild, and success was around the corner.
This was supposed to be the year ... no more excuses, no more green shoots, no more gallant bloody losses.
Others were less forgiving, but to the detriment of the club, it persisted with Bolton until his tenure was completely untenable.
Who can forget that savaging at the hands of GWS, when they outscored us in the final quarter despite having only 16 fit players?
Playing with one man short, and at one stage just 16 on the field, the GWS players were instructed by coach Leon Cameron to stop kicking so many goals so as not to wear themselves out.
It remains my darkest moment in some five decades of following the club.
It was not until 2019 and four wasted years that Bolton was let go, with just 16 wins from 77 games to his name, including three from the most recent 33 matches.
David Teague started off speaking plain English.  Getty
Then came David Teague, a former player of solid standing, with a good football brain and who refreshingly spoke in plain English and coached an old style – of players backing themselves and going up the guts.
Thankfully, the club finally acknowledged the rebuild wasn’t going so well and changed tack. After seven years of telling us one thing, it decided to fast-track the rebuild by buying a few players to blend experience with youth. After securing Adam Saad and Zac Williams, this was supposed to be the year.
There would be no more excuses, no more green shoots, no more rebuilding, no more gallant bloody losses or brave Blues.
It was time to make the finals, legitimately, for the first time in a decade during which we have churned through two presidents, three CEOs, four coaches, God knows how many players, witnessed a membership boom and an eradicated debt but, most importantly, achieved scant progress on the field.
But six rounds into season 2021 and it’s a feeling of ‘here we are again’.
Despite poaching the best fitness guru, we started the season with a third of the team’s first 18 on the injury list, and were told to accept this as normal.
Players lured by enormous salaries to kick goals couldn’t hit a barn wall. Other teams which slumped long after us have rebuilt long before us. Brisbane is Exhibit A.
Our coach has lost his mojo and speaks in spin, repeating the same phrases after each loss as if he is a hostage being made to read a statement.
Not feared or disliked, just pitied
Teague had nothing like the goodwill or patience extended to his predecessors who got away for years with saying winning wasn’t important. He had a very short runway on which to operate. It may be unfair to demand his scalp but many are.
Not so long ago, it was a young Patrick Cripps being exhorted to “step up” and help Marc Murphy in the midfield. That then became a young Sam Walsh must help Cripps carry the team. Now we all fear Walsh will depart before the same burden borne by his predecessors breaks him too.
Once upon a time, Carlton was used to winning. We expected it and demanded it. We were not like those other clubs, such as St Kilda, which hasn’t won a flag since its first in 1966, or the Bulldogs, who had to wait half a century between drinks,
But now, that’s how it feels. We are neither feared nor disliked. Just pitied.
Carlton legend Mark Maclure spoke recently of two decades of being served up rubbish. We have had more wooden spoons – five – than any other club this century, but more significant is the cultural dislocation. A once-feared juggernaut, Carlton’s culture has become one of aspiring to mediocrity.
Eddie Betts was about five when Carlton last won a flag. Now people are saying he’s too old and should move on. Getty
We don’t know how to win, just garner a heroic headline. As Bob Hawke once said of Kim Beazley, who he didn’t think was tough enough to beat John Howard: “He hasn’t got enough crap in him.”
That’s what years of repeated heavy defeats and a patronising football media instils in a club, all helped by a generation that has no living memory of the Carlton of old.
Of the 43 senior players on the current list, just under a third were alive when Carlton last won a flag in 1995.
Marc Murphy and Eddie Betts were eight, Levi Casboult and Ed Curnow were about five and due to start school. Liam Jones was a year behind, aged four.
The rest – Sam Docherty, Cripps, Michael Gibbons, Adam Saad, Jack Martin, Jack Newnes, Nic Newman, Lachie Plowman and Mitch McGovern – were aged two or less and still in nappies.
Our corporate memory, built over more than 150 years, has vanished.
A rebuild longer than Beirut’s
Ultimately, sport is like politics in that there are no problems that winning won’t fix.
But an awful realisation has dawned that all the talk, promises and planning of years past has amounted to nothing, and we have to drop senior players, look for another coach and start again. We will be rebuilding longer than Beirut.
The mood was articulated on Facebook by a fan who lamented that all this club gave him was “spin and misery”.
Another, named Ross Cattle, wrote after the loss to Brisbane: “I spend six days in agony and tell myself don’t watch Carlton. Game day comes and I can’t control myself: I have to watch and I actually, stupidly, convince myself this game will be our turning point – only to be devastated (by) another loss, and a grand final appearance so far away.
“Maybe it is something I never might see in my life. When we do win, it’s meaningless in terms of finals, and what we all dream of, a grand final.
“Being a Carlton supporter feels like you’re a loser; but 15 minutes before quarter time, you actually believe something different.
“Is there a worse team than Carlton?”
The answer to that last proposition is “yes”. And plenty.
Because as much as this club breaks our hearts, we love it and that’s why we get so angry at times and lash out.
We’ll always love the club, even if it kills us.
Because it’s more important than politics.
It’s footy"

A Readers Digest version of the Carlton Supporters Club. Nothing new, nothing useful. Just regurgitating what the fans want to hear.

What the hell are we supposed to make of trash like this :

"Because as much as this club breaks our hearts, we love it and that’s why we get so angry at times and lash out."

Exactly the same argument used by wife abusers.

Rubbish journalism.

Not sure Teague is going to want to experiment and tinker with a smaller lineup given his job is on the line.
The reality is the next three weeks are going to be crucial for the team and his career and I just dont see him messing with too many kids or cute positional changes unless ordered to....

It just might save his career to make some changes!

The MC may be wrong but it has been in no hurry to give extended playing time to the players you have mentioned.

No they haven't unfortunately. No 'feel' for the game and a lack of footy nous and imagination IMO.

I'm not sure Teague can be saved by his own actions, I have strong suspicions our problems run deeper and the culprits(maybe too strong) those contributing to the problem are escaping scrutiny.

It just might save his career to make some changes!

I think vs Nth, Freo, GC, Crows you could experiment a bit more and still get away with a win, vs Ess, Dogs, Dees I think you
would be pushing your luck introducing too many young kids.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMI8KjlcTmw

I could not agree more with Ross and others in this segment... especially re Newnes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMI8KjlcTmw

I could not agree more with Ross and others in this segment... especially re Newnes.

Notice what Ross Lyon said about Stocker, four good VFL games as a Mid, then they play him as a lock down defender.

This is an MC issue, and it's a player development issue, in my opinion it's very ordinary team and list management, and it sort of exposes what the coaching staff think about the kids they've picked up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMI8KjlcTmw

I could not agree more with Ross and others in this segment... especially re Newnes.

Disagree on Newnes.
Lob should take his position. Lob was given the chance to take his position and failed. He was given game time in the preseason and in the regular season and TBH I didn't even see enough to keep him on the list beyond this year. He isn't even playing well in the 2s.

So Newnes gets the gig because nobody is deserving of it otherwise.

If/when we start getting some more younger kids fit and in form then we might see philp, honey, Ramsay, Carroll and whoever else earning a gig....then we might send Newnes to the 2s....but until then, he continues to deliver an afl standard performance every week and deserves his spot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMI8KjlcTmw

I could not agree more with Ross and others in this segment... especially re Newnes.

Think Newnes has done his job and been hard done by, he was a delisted free agent, wouldnt be on that much and
been fairly consistent. Has played mainly on the wing but was used down back last week as well and thats probably a reflection on others not doing their job. Sad part of it he is regarded by the playing group as one of the more more physical players on the list and valued for that...if Newnes is seen as more physical then it doesnt say much for the rest of the group.
Spotlight shouldnt be on a cheap delisted free agent who is there to be an accessory holding up an end,it should be on some of the key players on big money not doing their job and some of these highly rated kids with plenty of hype surrounding them but little substance at this stage.
Obrien and Cuningham have done sweet FA for the last 24 months and Dow and SPS havent been much better.
You can probably add Williamson in that group too although I have cut him some slack given his injuries..
Murphy and Betts are being carried and we have focus on Newnes who has least contributed?

Notice what Ross Lyon said about Stocker, four good VFL games as a Mid, then they play him as a lock down defender.

This is and MC issue, and it's a player development issue, in my opinion it's very ordinary team and list management, and it sort of exposes what the coaching staff think about the kids they've picked up.

It’s all so obvious

Our MC must hear the fans, watch the news, but then almost inexplicably, they then deliberately heap more pressure on their already tenuous positions by thumbing their nose at the mob and sticking fat with Murphy Betts and Newnes. Keep doing it and they all deserve to go!

A Readers Digest version of the Carlton Supporters Club. Nothing new, nothing useful. Just regurgitating what the fans want to hear.

What the hell are we supposed to make of trash like this :

"Because as much as this club breaks our hearts, we love it and that’s why we get so angry at times and lash out."

Exactly the same argument used by wife abusers.

Rubbish journalism.

The problem is Paul, if I sat down to write out exactly how I feel at the moment I'd write something pretty similar.
But that's just a personal feeling captured in this moment in time.

Likening some passions to  'wife abusing' is a bit of a long bow.
Supporters come in all shapes and forms, from the passive to the aggressive.
I'm not very demonstrative at games...but the passion is no less there.
You might see that hateful, destructive level of angst amongst a few folk at the very extreme....but it's a very small group.

Most of the criticism expressed by fans isn't to exert dominance, to control or to physically and mentally hurt.
It's born of a desire to see the club experience success.
It's things they regard as helping rather than hurting.
While many abusers may also see their behaviour as "helping" we can easily see a difference.
With supporters many of the ideas are arguably constructive...try this, try that, replace the old, play the youth
You were right in saying it's a reflection of the views of many on CSC but probably wrong in saying it's what the fans want to hear.
We don't want too hear it...but it's what many (not all of course) are feeling.

The problem is Paul, if I sat down to write out exactly how I feel at the moment I'd write something pretty similar.
But that's just a personal feeling captured in this moment in time.

Likening some passions to  'wife abusing' is a bit of a long bow.
Supporters come in all shapes and forms, from the passive to the aggressive.
I'm not very demonstrative at games...but the passion is no less there.
You might see that hateful, destructive level of angst amongst a few folk at the very extreme....but it's a very small group.

Most of the criticism expressed by fans isn't to exert dominance, to control or to physically and mentally hurt.
It's born of a desire to see the club experience success.
It's things they regard as helping rather than hurting.
While many abusers may also see their behaviour as "helping" we can easily see a difference.
With supporters many of the ideas are arguably constructive...try this, try that, replace the old, play the youth
You were right in saying it's a reflection of the views of many on CSC but probably wrong in saying it's what the fans want to hear.
We don't want too hear it...but it's what many (not all of course) are feeling.

Sorry, but when you see fans lash out, and abuse players for being soft, lazy, not earning their pay, being lifestyle footy players, not playing for the jumper, stealing the fans money etc. that's hurtful, and abusive. You won't find too many who would go up to Marc Murphy and call him soft to his face.

I expect better from so called journalists. If I want to read what fans think, I come here. That's what this site is for. In the days before journalism went down the loo, you could read and hear something that added to your knowledge, something you didn't know before. It seems as thought those days are past.

Totally agree re Newnes. He cost us nothing...he wasn't and never will be an A-Grader. But last year he was a consistent performer and regularly hit the scoreboard which not many of our other midfielders do. Until the guys like Setterfield, LOB, Dow, Cunningham can play at a reasonable level on a consistent basis, then guys like Newnes will get selected.

A Readers Digest version of the Carlton Supporters Club. Nothing new, nothing useful. Just regurgitating what the fans want to hear.

What the hell are we supposed to make of trash like this :

"Because as much as this club breaks our hearts, we love it and that’s why we get so angry at times and lash out."

Exactly the same argument used by wife abusers.

Rubbish journalism.

I have to say I find your comment strange Pauly. I often feel exactly that with the CFC, whilst I try to not get angry per se over sport, I can get pretty scathing on the keyboard with the club because of my love for it. I dont abuse my wife, I idolise all the women in my life and find violence  towards man, woman or child abhorrent. The CFC does test my patience way more than my wife and kids.

We keep drafting Mids, and play them on a flank or the wing because they are behind Cripps or Walsh in the pecking order, then when our ruck gets injured we've no spares and the extra Mids rot in the VFL!

That is not good List Management and very poor MC.

Notice what Ross Lyon said about Stocker, four good VFL games as a Mid, then they play him as a lock down defender.

This is an MC issue, and it's a player development issue, in my opinion it's very ordinary team and list management, and it sort of exposes what the coaching staff think about the kids they've picked up.

Except its not true - Stocker had been playing off half back in the 2s (not lock-down, more sweeper, but still HBF).....  then again, who expects these guys to actually do any research?

I have to say I find your comment strange Pauly. I often feel exactly that with the CFC, whilst I try to not get angry per se over sport, I can get pretty scathing on the keyboard with the club because of my love for it. I dont abuse my wife, I idolise all the women in my life and find violence  towards man, woman or child abhorrent. The CFC does test my patience way more than my wife and kids.

I have to say, if you take an overview perspective you find that there is significant contradiction between the messages offered by our coaches, MC and players, versus the messaging from our Club Executive.

I feel this is what generates a lot of anguish, but only because too many trust our Club Executive. Treat what the Club publishes as spin, question a lot if not all of it, look for your own evidence, and a lot of the anguish goes away!

Except its not true - Stocker had been playing off half back in the 2s (not lock-down, more sweeper, but still HBF).....  then again, who expects these guys to actually do any research?

Sweeper is a midfield role that starts from the defensive side of the square.  I suppose the 6-6-6 starting positions cloud this, but the tell is what the players do immediately after the bounce.

It won't be long under this 6-6-6 rule that you see a midfield player basically non-compete. That is they will be in the square 20m away from the centre circle, and just step out as the ball is bounced. Perhaps to even surrender the first possession and force a HB turnover as a tactic. Under 6-6-6 the traditional starting positions are somewhat potentially redundant to new tactics. A good example is that at many games now the wings are starting almost 50m apart, yet they are still "wings" by name.

Those four in the centre square for the bounces, who is to say one or two can't immediately run to the wing after the initial contest, and the wings head on ball. It's an area of specialisation in our game that is sort of half-professional and needs tidying up.

I have to say, if you take an overview perspective you find that there is significant contradiction between the messages offered by our coaches, MC and players, versus the messaging from our Club Executive.

I feel this is what generates a lot of anguish, but only because too many trust our Club Executive. Treat what the Club publishes as spin, question a lot if not all of it, look for your own evidence, and a lot of the anguish goes away!

Agree but, and there is always a but, I think the gist of that gets people angry most of the time is the repetitiveness of the losses. We manage long negative streaks like 30 point turn arounds. These are things that are occurring of a period of weeks, we are talking months and years. THATS what pissus me off the most.

Think Newnes has done his job and been hard done by, he was a delisted free agent, wouldnt be on that much and
been fairly consistent. Has played mainly on the wing but was used down back last week as well and thats probably a reflection on others not doing their job. Sad part of it he is regarded by the playing group as one of the more more physical players on the list and valued for that...if Newnes is seen as more physical then it doesnt say much for the rest of the group.
Spotlight shouldnt be on a cheap delisted free agent who is there to be an accessory holding up an end,it should be on some of the key players on big money not doing their job and some of these highly rated kids with plenty of hype surrounding them but little substance at this stage.
Obrien and Cuningham have done sweet FA for the last 24 months and Dow and SPS havent been much better.
You can probably add Williamson in that group too although I have cut him some slack given his injuries..
Murphy and Betts are being carried and we have focus on Newnes who has least contributed?

Agreed 100%, easy target..... lazy journalism

Sorry, but when you see fans lash out, and abuse players for being soft, lazy, not earning their pay, being lifestyle footy players, not playing for the jumper, stealing the fans money etc. that's hurtful, and abusive. You won't find too many who would go up to Marc Murphy and call him soft to his face.

I expect better from so called journalists. If I want to read what fans think, I come here. That's what this site is for. In the days before journalism went down the loo, you could read and hear something that added to your knowledge, something you didn't know before. It seems as thought those days are past.

He's not a football journalist, he's a political and Economics editor of the AFR describing life as a Carlton supporter over his time. Nothing more. Think we all feel the same. Last place I'd expect to find such an article actually is the Australian Financial Review.

Agreed 100%, easy target..... lazy journalism

Teague said in his presser today that if there are two players performing at the same level vying for the same position, he will always play the kid or younger of the two. He was referring to Eddie being played and whether he was comfortable telling him time up. Teague said he is, so is Eddie, as soon as someone else "puts their hand up", they are in.

We keep drafting Mids, and play them on a flank or the wing because they are behind Cripps or Walsh in the pecking order, then when our ruck gets injured we've no spares and the extra Mids rot in the VFL!

That is not good List Management and very poor MC.

Agree...we like to turn mids into defenders and have taken ages to figure out we needed a specialist half back like Saad as well.
Now we have some calling for Williams to be returned to the half backline where he made his name with GWS and end that experiment. That could allow either Stocker or Setterfield to return to the middle where they have more expertise.
No KP defenders in the VFL either or KP Forwards...we had to get OMac as a supp to play as a swingman and have the VFL listed Crocker( a mid/flanker) by trade playing FF...we booted MaCreadie, BSOS and Kerr in recent times and replaced them with nothing all while having Marchbank and Curnow as long term injury prospects.
Jack Hayes is a KP player from the SANFL I would look at as a supp/rookie player....

Agree...we like to turn mids into defenders and have taken ages to figure out we needed a specialist half back like Saad as well.
Now we have some calling for Williams to be returned to the half backline where he made his name with GWS and end that experiment. That could allow either Stocker or Setterfield to return to the middle where they have more expertise.
No KP defenders in the VFL either or KP Forwards...we had to get OMac as a supp to play as a swingman and have the VFL listed Crocker( a mid/flanker) by trade playing FF...we booted MaCreadie, BSOS and Kerr in recent times and replaced them with nothing all while having Marchbank and Curnow as long term injury prospects.
Jack Hayes is a KP player from the SANFL I would look at as a supp/rookie player....

Well, I think BSoS was probably justified, his name doesn't influence me.

I feel for Macreadie and Kerr, yet they haven't been picked up so that is a tell.

We seem to continually break players down, then when we get them rebuilt they've lost something rather than gaining anything.

I can understand why Fraser got the chop, he didn't fit in, he actually looked like he knew what he was doing and got results!

I can't help but think our club's priority is worksafe and profit by cost cutting over results.

Teague also said Jack S is in contention this week, needs to get through training today, same with Parks. TDK and Newman will play reserves.

Teague also said Jack S is in contention this week, needs to get through training today, same with Parks. TDK and Newman will play reserves.

Fans should not be expecting too much immediately from TDK or Newman, they have played jack shi1zen under the current rules!

Although I think the new rules suit TDK, they work in his favour, but he'll be some way off match fitness.

I'm not sure the new frenzied play on style suits Newman, he was a little light on for pace prior to the current faster game style trend. But he'll make life tougher for opposition KPPs.

Well, I think BSoS was probably justified, his name doesn't influence me.

I feel for Macreadie and Kerr, yet they haven't been picked up so that is a tell.

I dont have a problem booting players and my point is more we needed to replace like for like in terms of positions played to keep that balance on the list. Boot BSOS by all means if thats what people want but get a replacement who plays the same role.
Boot Kerr if you think he cant make it but dont replace him with midfielders and then have to recruit the 185cm Ben Crocker as a VFL player to get a target up forward in the VFL team.

https://www.afl.com.au/news/603601/teague-searches-for-ways-to-shut-window-on-enemy-runs

https://www.afl.com.au/news/603601/teague-searches-for-ways-to-shut-window-on-enemy-runs

I'd vote for not kicking the footy directly to them, tends to work very very well!

Agree...we like to turn mids into defenders and have taken ages to figure out we needed a specialist half back like Saad as well.
Now we have some calling for Williams to be returned to the half backline where he made his name with GWS and end that experiment. That could allow either Stocker or Setterfield to return to the middle where they have more expertise.
No KP defenders in the VFL either or KP Forwards...we had to get OMac as a supp to play as a swingman and have the VFL listed Crocker( a mid/flanker) by trade playing FF...we booted MaCreadie, BSOS and Kerr in recent times and replaced them with nothing all while having Marchbank and Curnow as long term injury prospects.
Jack Hayes is a KP player from the SANFL I would look at as a supp/rookie player....

Kerr was unlucky to be booted. Could play but lost his spot due to having too many of the same type. He'd would certainly be useful now. Was a smart player who read the play, led well and could take a mark.

Sorry, but when you see fans lash out, and abuse players for being soft, lazy, not earning their pay, being lifestyle footy players, not playing for the jumper, stealing the fans money etc. that's hurtful, and abusive.

Hurtful?  Then they'll have to live with it as thousands of players have before.  It's not a church social.

Hurtful?  Then they'll have to live with it as thousands of players have before.  It's not a church social.

it's also not 1973.

A Readers Digest version of the Carlton Supporters Club. Nothing new, nothing useful. Just regurgitating what the fans want to hear.

What the hell are we supposed to make of trash like this :

"Because as much as this club breaks our hearts, we love it and that’s why we get so angry at times and lash out."

Exactly the same argument used by wife abusers.

Rubbish journalism.

Woah, there Pauly. A love of your footy club, plus passion plus massive disappointment sees the best of us hit the keyboard... but that's the only hitting we do. The passionate among us are prone to wearing our hearts on our sleeves... but it's a massive leap from there to spousal abuse, verbal or physical.

Woah, there Pauly. A love of your footy club, plus passion plus massive disappointment sees the best of us hit the keyboard... but that's the only hitting we do. The passionate among us are prone to wearing our hearts on our sleeves... but it's a massive leap from there to spousal abuse, verbal or physical.

The connection between loving someone / something and lashing out, and using the former as an excuse for the latter, puts you on a very slippery slope IMO.

Caring, in all its manifestations, is a process of delineation, a process of separating what is acceptable from what is not. Not caring is the precisely the absence of delineation (everything is ok, nothing is unacceptable / off limits). With football, you can (subjectively IMO) identify acceptable or unacceptable levels of effort, skill etc. and that's fine. But unchecked emotions that spill over tend to cause more problems than they solve IMO.

If you read the article I linked, Teague makes it clear that he is not a fan of "make a statement" selection manoeuvres, and I applaud him. 

Teague said in his presser today that if there are two players performing at the same level vying for the same position, he will always play the kid or younger of the two. He was referring to Eddie being played and whether he was comfortable telling him time up. Teague said he is, so is Eddie, as soon as someone else "puts their hand up", they are in.

What more does Owies need to do?

What more does Owies need to do?

He didn't do much last week, but I get your point.

Woah, there Pauly. A love of your footy club, plus passion plus massive disappointment sees the best of us hit the keyboard... but that's the only hitting we do. The passionate among us are prone to wearing our hearts on our sleeves... but it's a massive leap from there to spousal abuse, verbal or physical.

Wish I'd said that @Baggers :)

If you read the article I linked, Teague makes it clear that he is not a fan of "make a statement" selection manoeuvres, and I applaud him. 

He doesn't have to use the make a statement selection maneuvers, but he does need to produce results soon.
Unless he has some other tricks up his sleeves, i would expect that he should try and make this kind of statement ASAP.

Sorry, but when you see fans lash out, and abuse players for being soft, lazy, not earning their pay, being lifestyle footy players, not playing for the jumper, stealing the fans money etc. that's hurtful, and abusive. You won't find too many who would go up to Marc Murphy and call him soft to his face.

I expect better from so called journalists. If I want to read what fans think, I come here. That's what this site is for. In the days before journalism went down the loo, you could read and hear something that added to your knowledge, something you didn't know before. It seems as thought those days are past.

Soccer has it crowd cages, in Sth America and places like Columbia and the like they shoot under performing soccer players, I really think our game is very tame in terms of abuse and general behavior.
Marc Murphy is a little bloke and a lot of idiot supporters probably wouldnt be too scared in telling him what they think but they dont because they know the boundaries of good behavior vs being over passionate about the game.
I'm sure Rodger Federer gets plenty of abuse as does VIrat Kholi as does Steve Smith but if you want the centre stage in a Colosseum then you have to expect negative reactions when you under perform.
Fans who feel short changed at Rock Concerts etc will set fire to stuff, try and get on stage to punch on with performers, its all part of the downside of being a celebrity.
Anyone going home and kicking the dog,wife and kids etc over a game of football clearly have more issues than just a sporting result not going there way and the game of AFL isnt the underlying issue IMHO.

Sorry, but when you see fans lash out, and abuse players for being soft, lazy, not earning their pay, being lifestyle footy players, not playing for the jumper, stealing the fans money etc. that's hurtful, and abusive. You won't find too many who would go up to Marc Murphy and call him soft to his face.

I expect better from so called journalists. If I want to read what fans think, I come here. That's what this site is for. In the days before journalism went down the loo, you could read and hear something that added to your knowledge, something you didn't know before. It seems as thought those days are past.

He's not a football journalist, he's a political journalist, AFR Political Editor, (Australian financial Review doesn't do football) speaking as simply a regular Carlton fan. There is a bit of a difference. Saying what alot of us feel.

I'm not sure if my communication skills are at fault, or if it's something else, but I thought my points were simple enough :

1. the article is boring as, adds nothing to any debate, and is simply a recapitulation of what has existed on social media for ages, notwithstanding any recent additions from tyre kickers like Cornes. If people find this to be great writing, good on 'em.

2. Using love of the club as a justification and legitimation for lashing out is IMO a problem. To wit, recent posts on here regarding low life behavior at the recent Lions game. These offenders would also claim that they love the club, and their love made them do it, or that the club failing to meet their expectations made them do it.  And my statement that this is same argument used by domestic violence offenders (i,e she made me do it) is completely correct. I'm not suggesting one leads to the other. I'm not suggesting the gravity is the same, but the line of argument most certainly is.

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/04/29/the-club-tipped-to-morph-into-a-clone-of-richmond/

I'm not sure if my communication skills are at fault, or if it's something else, but I thought my points were simple enough :

1. the article is boring as, adds nothing to any debate, and is simply a recapitulation of what has existed on social media for ages, notwithstanding any recent additions from tyre kickers like Cornes. If people find this to be great writing, good on 'em.

2. Using love of the club as a justification and legitimation for lashing out is IMO a problem. To wit, recent posts on here regarding low life behavior at the recent Lions game. These offenders would also claim that they love the club, and their love made them do it, or that the club failing to meet their expectations made them do it.  And my statement that this is same argument used by domestic violence offenders (i,e she made me do it) is completely correct. I'm not suggesting one leads to the other. I'm not suggesting the gravity is the same, but the line of argument most certainly is.

Is he wrong? You're looking into it too much.

Yep
I think by 'lashing out' he meant no more than the general critical post we see on here after a bad performance.

It may not be Walkley award winning stuff, but I bet it hit the spot with a lot of Blues supporters who feel pretty much the same.

Yes, that must be my big character flaw - looking at things too closely lol.

Leaving aside my reservations about the article, I put to you, my learned colleagues, some points for your consideration :

1. after the debacle of 2012, where it was decided that Malthouse could put the finishing touches on the work done by Ratten (touches that Ratten himself was supposedly unable to produce), that in fact the club is delusional and knows sh1t about what it takes to be a finals club, and has once again, just like 2012-15, overestimated either list or coach, or possibly both. And has taken fans along for the ride.

2. Too early to call, and after stumbling as we walk onto the stage, we then recompose ourselves and play finals this season.

3. the club is perfectly aware that it has tried to prematurely force the finals narrative to give hope and sell memberships, knowing full well that is was a long shot this season.

Hey PaulP you wouldn't be Pass2Carrots by any chance?
Just asking?

Yes, that must be my big character flaw - looking at things too closely lol.

Leaving aside my reservations about the article, I put to you, my learned colleagues, some points for your consideration :

1. after the debacle of 2012, where it was decided that Malthouse could put the finishing touches on the work done by Ratten (touches that Ratten himself was supposedly unable to produce), that in fact the club is delusional and knows sh1t about what it takes to be a finals club, and has once again, just like 2012-15, overestimated either list or coach, or possibly both. And has taken fans along for the ride.

2. Too early to call, and after stumbling as we walk onto the stage, we then recompose ourselves and play finals this season.

3. the club is perfectly aware that it has tried to prematurely force the finals narrative to give hope and sell memberships, knowing full well that is was a long shot this season.

Without knowing the intrigues guiding the decisions of the club, I'm sure most supporters would be evenly divided between points 1 and 2.

Points 1 and 3.

On a rather separate note, paulp you need to move on from 2012.  Whats done is done.  Ditto Bolton.  Whats done is done.

The club is not the same any more.  Yes the two incidents make you think nothing is changed, but the answer is that to truly move on we need to accept them for what they were.

Plausibly correct decisions at the time.  Carlton isn't the villain and the coaches the hero of the piece.

Think of both of them as relationships that went sour.  Why they did is irrelevant.  Sometimes people making the choice that something else is something better do so because they're unhappy with what they have.

Look past the decisions to move them on.  It happened for more than one reason we just don't know them all.

On a rather separate note, paulp you need to move on from 2012.  Whats done is done.  Ditto Bolton.  Whats done is done.

The club is not the same any more.  Yes the two incidents make you think nothing is changed, but the answer is that to truly move on we need to accept them for what they were.

Plausibly correct decisions at the time.  Carlton isn't the villain and the coaches the hero of the piece.

Think of both of them as relationships that went sour.  Why they did is irrelevant.  Sometimes people making the choice that something else is something better do so because they're unhappy with what they have.
Look past the decisions to move them on.  It happened for more than one reason we just don't know them all.

You gotta admit thought, history does have a strange or uncanny habit of repeating itself at our club (off field and on).

You gotta admit thought, history does have a strange or uncanny habit of repeating itself at our club (off field and on).

Thats true, but its the same with all coaches.  You either leave a hero or stick around long enough to become the villain.

There are very few coaches that have universal respect and adoration of all fans.  Most of them get the sack eventually.

Hey PaulP you wouldn't be Pass2Carrots by any chance?
Just asking?

No, I'm just little ol' Pauly. Definitely not anyone else, not even PassIt2Carrots.

The only connection between me and Carrots is that we both hail from the Mediterranean, and as a consequence we're both very good at holding grudges lol.

On a rather separate note, paulp you need to move on from 2012.  Whats done is done.  Ditto Bolton.  Whats done is done.

The club is not the same any more.  Yes the two incidents make you think nothing is changed, but the answer is that to truly move on we need to accept them for what they were.

Plausibly correct decisions at the time.  Carlton isn't the villain and the coaches the hero of the piece.

Think of both of them as relationships that went sour.  Why they did is irrelevant.  Sometimes people making the choice that something else is something better do so because they're unhappy with what they have.

Look past the decisions to move them on.  It happened for more than one reason we just don't know them all.

Agree. Sometimes the urgency or commercial reality of a situation requires a judgement call to be made, there simply is not time to do a full 100% 360deg analysis. OK not ideal but all that can be done in what is perceived as the circumstances at the time. If you get the judgement wrong the best thing you can do is to try and learn from it and move forward with your energies mainly focused on getting it right for the future. Admittedly we have not shown ourselves to be that good in these areas, especially learning from the past errors, in fact our club seems to have been run by slow learners for far too long. Let’s hope this is changing, for the sake of our collective sanity.

Both 1 and 3, clearly articulated.   Point 3 is verging on fraud and may be the reason driving so much angst.

Yes, the "Sell" puts Liddle in the used car or door to door salesmen regime, does he have a deal for you!

But should we expect anything less, I'm sure his remuneration primarily depends on membership growth, so why would we be surprised that takes priority both in implementation and reporting inventiveness!

The only connection between me and Carrots is that we both hail from the Mediterranean, and as a consequence we're both very good at holding grudges lol.

That but also you are a gentlemen and a scholar.

That but also you are a gentlemen and a scholar.

Thanks. Very nice of you to say that, GTC. And some very scholarly and gentlemanly compliments to you as well.

Yes, the "Sell" puts Liddle in the used car or door to door salesmen regime, does he have a deal for you!

But should we expect anything less, I'm sure his remuneration primarily depends on membership growth, so why would we be surprised that takes priority both in implementation and reporting inventiveness!

Exactly. The board would set his goals and measure his performance and no doubt remuneration according to how he is achieving them. He is not the club himself but he is a reflection of the club.

Yes, the "Sell" puts Liddle in the used car or door to door salesmen regime, does he have a deal for you!

But should we expect anything less, I'm sure his remuneration primarily depends on membership growth, so why would we be surprised that takes priority both in implementation and reporting inventiveness!

What is wrong with people?

Every single year we are sold hope. Why are people getting their knickers in a twist this year and not any other year? Is that because for once they might not have been lying?

No club has ever come out and said... this year we are f@#ked, so don't bother, come back next year.

The only connection between me and Carrots is that we both hail from the Mediterranean, and as a consequence we're both very good at holding grudges lol.

(https://media.tenor.com/images/1d3b2f7d6837cc66df2a74c5d646ddc7/tenor.gif)

What is wrong with people?

Every single year we are sold hope. Why are people getting their knickers in a twist this year and not any other year? Is that because for once they might not have been lying?

No club has ever come out and said... this year we are f@#ked, so don't bother, come back next year.

We get our knickers in a twist every year... ;D

What is wrong with people?

I don't think anything is wrong with people.

Every single year we are sold hope. Why are people getting their knickers in a twist this year and not any other year? Is that because for once they might not have been lying?

I just think they are perhaps detecting this at a whole new level, and that perhaps they have reached their fill!

Like I wrote earlier, if fans started off from the point of cynicism they probably aren't feeling the hurt now, that doesn't mean they didn't sign on, it's just that they support without the need to be spun! They have accepted there is no rainbow or pot of gold, but there is a journey that they can chose to join.

I've little sympathy for those who know or knew better but chose to believe the spin as a justification to sign on, they have no right to point the finger now just because they feel they need someone to blame for "wasting their money!" A membership is in one aspect showing support for a club, but in another perspective it's also a bet. Many are feeling punters regret!

No club has ever come out and said... this year we are f@#ked, so don't bother, come back next year.

What is the relevance of debating fan perceptions with fantasy accusation. What the fans think is what the fans think, it's not a postulate, if you want to go down the corporate commercial path then you have to accept market/customer is always right!

(https://media.tenor.com/images/1d3b2f7d6837cc66df2a74c5d646ddc7/tenor.gif)

It's a very good song, regardless of the target demographic. I can definitely live with the association.  :D

Hey PaulP you wouldn't be Pass2Carrots by any chance?
Just asking?

I have Carrots on Facebook, Pauly isn't him.

I have Carrots on Facebook, Pauly isn't him.

Jim, What happened to Carrots, does he post under a new nick or not at all?

Yes, that must be my big character flaw - looking at things too closely lol.

Leaving aside my reservations about the article, I put to you, my learned colleagues, some points for your consideration :

1. after the debacle of 2012, where it was decided that Malthouse could put the finishing touches on the work done by Ratten (touches that Ratten himself was supposedly unable to produce), that in fact the club is delusional and knows sh1t about what it takes to be a finals club, and has once again, just like 2012-15, overestimated either list or coach, or possibly both. And has taken fans along for the ride.

2. Too early to call, and after stumbling as we walk onto the stage, we then recompose ourselves and play finals this season.

3. the club is perfectly aware that it has tried to prematurely force the finals narrative to give hope and sell memberships, knowing full well that is was a long shot this season.

You are partially right, there are bad clubs as well as bad coaches. It's not one size fits all. Sometimes it one, other times it's the other, other times a combination of both. Bad cultures chew up coaches and spit them out, as Ratts might be finding out at the Saints. We have a very bad culture, not so much a bad club these days generally off field, but Bolton was going so badly it was important we change the coach at the time, which was most of the issue at the time. So that was done, winning records gone from about 9% the previous 50 games to about 45%. That part is now alot better, although we know it can be much better. So now, we have to get through the next part, the 5hit culture, and hope it doesn't spew out another coach. Next part now is up to the players to developed that "want" and real motivation. Our best two results this century, win/loss, have actually come from two ex-Carlton players.

Jim, What happened to Carrots, does he post under a new nick or not at all?

Not at all these days.

Why can't we have teams on a Thursday night,  like we have had for the past bazillion years.

Not at all these days.

Shame...was good value.

On a side note, do a sample of your friends ideas on Teague, and you'll see that there is a growing minority of people who never wanted him, think the club caved to player pressure, and are now happy for him to go.

In that equation, and the Carlton football club, he is effectively a dead man walking.  

Its a shame, but it looks like "we'll get our man again".  Ross Lyon the latest rumour.  Ive heard Michael Voss muted as well.

If we do it, Im cancelling my membership.  I only use it a couple of times a year and usually reserve a seat with my brother in laws AFL membership anyway when I CBF going. 

On a side note, do a sample of your friends ideas on Teague, and you'll see that there is a growing minority of people who never wanted him, think the club caved to player pressure, and are now happy for him to go.

In that equation, and the Carlton football club, he is effectively a dead man walking. 

Its a shame, but it looks like "we'll get our man again".  Ross Lyon the latest rumour.  Ive heard Michael Voss muted as well.

If we do it, Im cancelling my membership.  I only use it a couple of times a year and usually reserve a seat with my brother in laws AFL membership anyway when I CBF going. 

It's just more rock throwing, the thing we are best at.

Shame...was good value.

Not as good as hotcox ... his love affair with Jake Edwards was one for the ages.

Put SPS in the middle?

If he gets it he'll turn sideways and kick one of his legendary 11m kicks and really damage the Opposition haha NOT

Obrien and Cuningham have done sweet FA for the last 24 months and Dow and SPS havent been much better.
You can probably add Williamson in that group too although I have cut him some slack given his injuries..

There is a major difference better Cunningham and the other imo.
While I agree it hasn’t been consistent I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever Cunningham has what it takes if he gets an uninterrupted run to become a very damaging burst midfielder.
He’s showed his smarts even just last week with how he uses the ball in traffic and spreads away from a contest well. He has had games at the top level where you go wow he is good. Never seen that from the other.

On the others mentioned I would still persist with Willo but not as confident as I once was on him.
Dow is more unlikely then likely for me to make it.
Lob won’t be on the list at years end.

It's a very good song, regardless of the target demographic. I can definitely live with the association.  :D

Yes, I tend not to assign ethnicity, gender or gerontology to messages, I see it as part of life's walking the talk!

Anyway, I'm off to serve up some cold revenge!

On a side note, do a sample of your friends ideas on Teague, and you'll see that there is a growing minority of people who never wanted him, think the club caved to player pressure, and are now happy for him to go.

In that equation, and the Carlton football club, he is effectively a dead man walking.  

Its a shame, but it looks like "we'll get our man again".  Ross Lyon the latest rumour.  Ive heard Michael Voss muted as well.

If we do it, Im cancelling my membership.  I only use it a couple of times a year and usually reserve a seat with my brother in laws AFL membership anyway when I CBF going. 

Lyon hasnt renewed any of his contracts with Channel 9 or MMM and the gossip from nine is he wont discuss any contract for  next year until seasons end which tells me he is available if the offer is right. Doesnt mean there is any Carlton connection either, I could see a few clubs keen on him and its only the money not being right that will keep him in the media IMHO.

can we see 2 things this round 1. no long bombs into fwd line.2 can we kick to a forward in Best position not just to Harry.

Put SPS in the middle?

If he gets it he'll turn sideways and kick one of his legendary 11m kicks and really damage the Opposition haha NOT

Why not try him as a small forward, then we can see how "elite" his kicking really is. Push Fog/Stocker into the midfield, they are tough and can tackle.

can we see 2 things this round 1. no long bombs into fwd line.2 can we kick to a forward in Best position not just to Harry.

What you have proposed has merit, so it won't happen.

can we see 2 things this round 1. no long bombs into fwd line.2 can we kick to a forward in Best position not just to Harry.

Now why would we go and do those 2 things, pull your head in. ;)

https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/923812/facts-you-may-not-?fbclid=IwAR27Uu0cHJkWNvHeYME0tUYljiJo3oQm6DbWM7kcLEJ11ZTPE3EJPidb5vE

Some interesting stats about the history of the rivalry...

Good luck to Weits for his 100th game in the great jumper.

Why not try him as a small forward, then we can see how "elite" his kicking really is. Push Fog/Stocker into the midfield, they are tough and can tackle.

Get him in the middle to fatten his stats then trade him at seasons end for Cerra, he isnt going to improve us to any great degree
with his inconsistent approach to most aspects of the game and I'd be dealing him now while he has some perceived value.

SPS was drafted as a midfielder....it's a role we're crying out for....if he can't cut it in that position, then trade out for someone who can.

Probably worth a second rounder at best

Probably worth a second rounder at best

Thats why we need to fatten him up with some midfield time and get his value up if it becomes apparent in the next 3-4  weeks their is no hope of finals.

Get him in the middle to fatten his stats then trade him at seasons end for Cerra, he isnt going to improve us to any great degree
with his inconsistent approach to most aspects of the game and I'd be dealing him now while he has some perceived value.

I have little expectation that he will significantly improve. If we could trade him as a part of an upgrade deal then go for it.

On a side note, do a sample of your friends ideas on Teague, and you'll see that there is a growing minority of people who never wanted him, think the club caved to player pressure, and are now happy for him to go.

In that equation, and the Carlton football club, he is effectively a dead man walking.  

Its a shame, but it looks like "we'll get our man again".  Ross Lyon the latest rumour.  Ive heard Michael Voss muted as well.

If we do it, Im cancelling my membership.  I only use it a couple of times a year and usually reserve a seat with my brother in laws AFL membership anyway when I CBF going. 

Thry, I've taken a sample of eight long time Blues supporters.  The view on Teague is that he is most likely gone at the end of the year.
Generally there is sympathy for him - similar to Ratten.
They are furious with the club.  As one supporter put it, " We were told we needed a rebuild and at the end we would have a team that could go all the way to the finals.  What have we got - a list about the same as we started with."

Macca....pretty much sums up most of the frustration that Blues supporters that I know have at the moment. We seem to have been in rebuilding mode for some time. We had all of those high draft picks...then stocked up with blokes from other clubs incl. Martin, Williams, Saad, Betts (coming back) etc....and yet it's hard to see where much improvement has come from.

Yes Walsh is an absolute superstar in only his 3rd year and Weitering is continuing on from where he left off last year...and McKay for the most part is getting there despite not being able to kick a goal from directly in front....but outside of that, there's not much else.

I have little expectation that he will significantly improve. If we could trade him as a part of an upgrade deal then go for it.

Hard not to recall the game where he single handedly demolished the Dogs....

he was given licence that night to just play footy.

Round 5 2019, 35 disposals....

Then they decided to move him into defence. Idiocy.

Thry, I've taken a sample of eight long time Blues supporters.  The view on Teague is that he is most likely gone at the end of the year.
Generally there is sympathy for him - similar to Ratten.
They are furious with the club.  As one supporter put it, " We were told we needed a rebuild and at the end we would have a team that could go all the way to the finals.  What have we got - a list about the same as we started with."

I realise we all like to think we're independent thinkers, but I'd be very curious to know what supporters would think if the media pursued a different or more positive narrative ?

Teague gone at the end of the year ? Digging in the same spot just makes a bigger hole, enough to bury the entire club no doubt. A truly exemplary bit of spadework.

I hope to live long enough to see this absurd logic and reasoning wiped from the club forever.

Thry, I've taken a sample of eight long time Blues supporters.  The view on Teague is that he is most likely gone at the end of the year.
Generally there is sympathy for him - similar to Ratten.
They are furious with the club.  As one supporter put it, " We were told we needed a rebuild and at the end we would have a team that could go all the way to the finals.  What have we got - a list about the same as we started with."

If we finish the season anywhere near a 33% win ratio of 7 or 8 wins only, Teague should go.

He has time to turn it around....but if he can't find the key to switching on the guys for 4 full quarters, he's not up to it.

I realise we all like to think we're independent thinkers, but I'd be very curious to know what supporters would think if the media pursued a different or more positive narrative ?

Teague gone at the end of the year ? Digging in the same spot just makes a bigger hole, enough to bury the entire club no doubt. A truly exemplary bit of spadework.

I hope to live long enough to see this absurd logic and reasoning wiped from the club forever.

And sometimes, you have to man up and say yep, bad choice, mistake. Next....

Ratts got shafted. MM was a mistake.

Bolton? Somewhere in between - but again, you need wins to remain relevant, BB wasn't getting them.

I hope Teague makes it, but the team needs to win games consistently and play for four quarters.

And sometimes, you have to man up and say yep, bad choice, mistake. Next....

Ratts got shafted. MM was a mistake.

Bolton? Somewhere in between - but again, you need wins to remain relevant, BB wasn't getting them.

I hope Teague makes it, but the team needs to win games consistently and play for four quarters.

I guess I could jump on the merry go round one more time, but maybe not.............

Hard not to recall the game where he single handedly demolished the Dogs....

he was given licence that night to just play footy.

Round 5 2019, 35 disposals....

Then they decided to move him into defence. Idiocy.

Played a very good game and I saw him play a couple of decent ones down back but its been a drought otherwise.
We need to reconstruct the midfield IMO the Dow, LOB, SPS Cuningham era hasnt worked for a variety of reasons and its time to admit defeat and look at other options. I think SPS still has trade value we can use unlike the others and I'd be prepared to roll the dice and try and upgrade to something better.

Teague's future is really dependent on results.
It's as it's always been.

I know some folk don't like hearing that but  it's reality.
If he gets results he gets time.
Win on Sunday he gets a reprieve...a couple of weeks when he can afford a bad performance or two.
If we have a bad loss on Sunday the pressure will be immense.

He simply MUST react from the box, not let the bl00dy game get away.   Again.

Analysis paralysis and I hate it.

And sometimes, you have to man up and say yep, bad choice, mistake. Next....

Ratts got shafted. MM was a mistake.

Bolton? Somewhere in between - but again, you need wins to remain relevant, BB wasn't getting them.

I hope Teague makes it, but the team needs to win games consistently and play for four quarters.

Teague has coached 34 games, his records stands at 15W 19L = 44%. Here are some comparisons to other coaches first 34 games

Clarko 29%
Dimma 32%
MM 56%
Brad Scott 47%
Kissed on the Dick Scott 79%
Horse 59%
Kenny H 68%
Bux 65%
Bummer T 50%
Ross Lyon 47%
Leon Cameron 38%
Ratts Carlton 38%
Ratts StK 52%
Bolts 44%

I realise coaches are victims of circumstance and the list they inherit,  but I reckon he is probably where he needs to be.

I guess I could jump on the merry go round one more time, but maybe not.............

It's a business,

I think aside from this week we don't look likely to win too many for a few weeks.

Really thats what was the problem with Bolton at the end.  The team didn't believe they could win as much as anything else and then lost winnable games.

This is a real test.  Pummel the bombers as expected and we are good.  Have a neither here nor there win and we are in all sorts.

A loss...  well the story writes itself really.

Teague has coached 34 games, his records stands at 15W 19L = 44%. Here are some comparisons to other coaches first 34 games

Clarko 29%
Dimma 32%
MM 56%
Brad Scott 47%
Kissed on the Dick Scott 79%
Horse 59%
Kenny H 68%
Bux 65%
Bummer T 50%
Ross Lyon 47%
Leon Cameron 38%
Ratts Carlton 38%
Ratts StK 52%
Bolts 44%

I realise coaches are victims of circumstance and the list they inherit,  but I reckon he is probably where he needs to be.

You better watch it GTC. You'll be taking over my role as the CSC pariah if you keep that up.  An official decree has been released, finals or bust. Those numbers are inconvenient truths, and decrees from LaLa land (on the one hand), and inconvenient truths on the other, rarely make comfortable bedfellows. One has to give.

It's a business,

Is it ? Thanks for the heads up. That's where I keep getting confused.

It's not what we necessarily think should happen.
Or what we want to happen
It's more a case of what we believe will happen.

Ratts got shafted.

People have short memories.  Yes, we have played our best footy, since the mid 90s, under Ratts. And, yes, we were great to watch.  But, he wasn’t shafted.  His time was up.  He had lost the players.   His last game, they rolled over against a joke of a Suns team.   There was no choice.    I don’t agree with the replacement, but Ratts was gooooone.

I realise we all like to think we're independent thinkers, but I'd be very curious to know what supporters would think if the media pursued a different or more positive narrative ?

Teague gone at the end of the year ? Digging in the same spot just makes a bigger hole, enough to bury the entire club no doubt. A truly exemplary bit of spadework.

I hope to live long enough to see this absurd logic and reasoning wiped from the club forever.

Bear in mind that the people I spoke to were not living in isolation.  Their views had no doubt formed over time and had been influenced by the views of their friends.

People have short memories.  Yes, we have played our best footy, since the mid 90s, under Ratts. And, yes, we were great to watch.  But, he wasn’t shafted.  His time was up.  He had lost the players.   His last game, they rolled over against a joke of a Suns team.   There was no choice.    I don’t agree with the replacement, but Ratts was gooooone.

Really?

I recall a year filled of injuries yet he still went at 50%.

Home and away season

After finishing 5th in 2011, the club entered the season with expectations of reaching the top four in 2012; the club, and coach Brett Ratten, made the bold move of stating this expectation publicly throughout the offseason.[37] Even after the winless preseason, Carlton entered the season as the fourth favourite for the premiership with punters, behind Collingwood, Hawthorn and Geelong.[38] With wins in the first three rounds, including a ten-goal win against Collingwood in Round 3, Carlton became equal premiership favourites, and after six rounds sat second on the ladder with a record of 5–1.[39]

However, the club then lost six of its next seven games to fall to tenth on the ladder with a record of 6–7 after Round 14, which brought intense speculation in the media about the future of Ratten's tenure as coach.[40] Carlton won five of its next seven games to stay in contention for eighth place, but was eliminated in Round 22 after losing and seeing other results fail to fall favourably. The club confirmed in the week following Round 22 that Ratten's contract would be terminated one year early; Ratten remained to coach the final match before departing.[7] The club finished with an even record of 11–11. Recently retired Collingwood coach Mick Malthouse, who was rumoured throughout the season to be the most likely replacement for Ratten should he have been sacked,[40] was appointed as Ratten's replacement shortly after the season.[41]

Across the season, Carlton finished with records of:

3–6 in nine games against the eight finalists, with two wins against Collingwood and one against Fremantle; but, after Round 8 the record was only 1–6.
5–3 in eight games against the four similarly placed teams (those who finished between 9th and 13th, all of whom won between ten and twelve games).
3–2 in five games against the bottom five teams. None of the bottom five managed more than five wins for the season, but Carlton suffered upset losses against two of them: Port Adelaide and Gold Coast.

Really?

I recall a year filled of injuries yet he still went at 50%.

3–2 in five games against the bottom five teams. None of the bottom five managed more than five wins for the season, but Carlton suffered upset losses against two of them: Port Adelaide and Gold Coast.

That Gold Coast game put the nail in his coffin.....   they rolled over and he was gone.  There was no choice

3–2 in five games against the bottom five teams. None of the bottom five managed more than five wins for the season, but Carlton suffered upset losses against two of them: Port Adelaide and Gold Coast.

That Gold Coast game put the nail in his coffin.....   they rolled over and he was gone.  There was no choice

Bollocks. There is always choice.

After three consecutive top 8 finishes?

He was shafted.

Bollocks. There is always choice.

After three consecutive top 8 finishes?

He was shafted.

The Gold Coast was the final nail.  He was a dead man walking by the north melbourne game (which we lost spectacularly).

It was shifting a then starting forward Henderson to defense when north got a run on and left him there which gave us no targets in 50.

The real problem happened after the bombers game I think where relationships were tested due to our fitness regime leading to the demise of cordy.

Like I said before.  We only see the football reasons to sack a coach.  None of the internal politics, relationships and power struggles and whispering in corners that occur like every other office.

Ratten had his flaws.  Remember Marcus Davies?  He started a final instead of chris Yarran in 2011.  That move might have been the one that cost ratten his job.

I think we're playing Essenscum this weekend and re-hashing the Ratten sacking isn't terribly relevant - apart from the way the Drug Cheats monstered us and broke Carrots scapula.  If you want to debate the Ratten sacking, take it to the coaching thread.

I think aside from this week we don't look likely to win too many for a few weeks.

Really thats what was the problem with Bolton at the end.  The team didn't believe they could win as much as anything else and then lost winnable games.

This is a real test.  Pummel the bombers as expected and we are good.  Have a neither here nor there win and we are in all sorts.

A loss...  well the story writes itself really.

If the players don’t all really put in for this one then I would have to conclude that they probably want TT gone or at least don’t care.

If the players don’t all really put in for this one then I would have to conclude that they probably want TT gone or at least don’t care.

He's been pretty firm in saying he believes in this group.
It's probably fair enough to ask them to show they believe in him.

He's been pretty firm in saying he believes in this group.
It's probably fair enough to ask them to show they believe in him.

The best way to achieve that is to select 22 players that are in form, match up well with the opposition and make up a balanced side.

Tweaking the gameplan to improve team defence and forward 50 entries would help.

Scouting the opposition and going into the game with a plan to negate their strengths and exploit their weaknesses would help too.  So would reacting more quickly to counter opposition tactics/advantages.

Finally, ensuring that the players are at optimal arousal levels for the opening bounce would go a long way towards setting up a victory.

People have short memories.  Yes, we have played our best footy, since the mid 90s, under Ratts. And, yes, we were great to watch.  But, he wasn’t shafted.  His time was up.  He had lost the players.   His last game, they rolled over against a joke of a Suns team.   There was no choice.    I don’t agree with the replacement, but Ratts was gooooone.

11-11 was just a flat year Like Hardwick had in 2016 and Bomber in 2006. You don't lose the players at 11-11 you just have a flat year, especially in a year we were crippled with injury like no other.

If we finish the season anywhere near a 33% win ratio of 7 or 8 wins only, Teague should go.

He has time to turn it around....but if he can't find the key to switching on the guys for 4 full quarters, he's not up to it.

Not this time for me. He's got a side with a bad culture and the only ones who can beat that is the players themselves. Every coach we've had this century hasn't been able to switch the side on for 4 qtrs. Ratts was the closest.

This is where we trade out players who don't work hard enough irrespective of ability. One need to shake player motivation somehow. Had to change the coach last time to at least start winning games, now this time it's the players.

Not this time for me. He's got a side with a bad culture and the only ones who can beat that is the players themselves. Every coach we've had this century hasn't been able to switch the side on for 4 qtrs. Ratts was the closest.

This is where we trade out players who don't work hard enough irrespective of ability. One need to shake player motivation somehow. Had to change the coach last time to at least start winning games, now this time it's the players.

Bad culture? You’ve got to be joking!

Blokes are played out of position, our team is unbalanced, our tactics are poor and the coaching box is slow to react to what’s happening on the field.

More aggressive, proactive coaching and sensible team selection and we won’t have a “culture problem”!

Bad culture? You’ve got to be joking!

Blokes are played out of position, our team is unbalanced, our tactics are poor and the coaching box is slow to react to what’s happening on the field.

More aggressive, proactive coaching and sensible team selection and we won’t have a “culture problem”!

Not a bad culture on-field. Are the fkn serious? What have you been watching for 20 years. FMD!

This side hasn't been properly motivated for 20 years with 5 coaches, better under some than others, more with
Ratts, who is also learning what a bad culture can do at St.Kilda. Teague is by far our 2nd best coach, win/loss this century. Motivation, hunger, drive, comes from within. You can have players in the right positions (which I would like admittedly), have whatever you want with the coaching, if the players don't want it badly enough, don't have the drive or hunger, you are going no-where. That is the same with any sport.

I know its not the right thread but Ratten was stiff to get flicked IMO, didnt really have the cattle and got the best out of what he had without much support.
You look back at the assistants and like Teague its slim pickings with our old friend John Barker front and centre again...
We are quick to sack coaches but should have been quicker to sack some assistants.....

Owies, Dow and Parks in,

 Murf ,Williams [ injured} and SPS out. (omitted)

In: Paddy Dow, Matthew Owies, Luke Parks
Out: Marc Murphy (injured), Zac Williams (injured), Matthew Kennedy, Sam Petrevski-Seton

Emg: Kennedy, Petrevski-Seton, Will Setterfield and Tom Williamson

In: Paddy Dow, Matthew Owies, Luke Parks
Out: Marc Murphy (injured), Zac Williams (injured), Matthew Kennedy, Sam Petrevski-Seton

Emg: Kennedy, Petrevski-Seton, Will Setterfield and Tom Williamson

Zac Williams struggling to stay on the park...what are we doing to our players?
Owies didnt touch it vs Brisbane twos
Murphy injured or rested(dropped)
SPS....looks like patience has run out with him
Setterfield might be the sub....
Nice to see Parks back..

In: Paddy Dow, Matthew Owies, Luke Parks
Out: Marc Murphy (injured), Zac Williams (injured), Matthew Kennedy, Sam Petrevski-Seton

Emg: Kennedy, Petrevski-Seton, Will Setterfield and Tom Williamson

Even though many will like SPS and Murphy getting dropped the inclusions are barely AFL standard so reality is we are considerably weaker with these changes - not expecting a massive game from any of this group but they must at least contribute or these changes could swing the result in a close game. 

They get Ridley back but lose Phillips so have a no name Ruckman.

Lose this and no can count finals out.

Massive game.

Zac Williams struggling to stay on the park...what are we doing to our players?
Owies didnt touch it vs Brisbane twos
Murphy injured or rested(dropped)
SPS....looks like patience has run out with him
Setterfield might be the sub....
Nice to see Parks back..

The General put Williams out. Good old general soreness.

Even though many will like SPS and Murphy getting dropped the inclusions are barely AFL standard so reality is we are considerably weaker with these changes - not expecting a massive game from any of this group but they must at least contribute or these changes could swing the result in a close game. 

They get Ridley back but lose Phillips so have a no name Ruckman.

Lose this and no can count finals out.

Massive game.

So if we get done by 10 goals because Owies and Dow offered SFA.....will people realise why Murphy and SPS are in the team?

I hope the kids provide a spark that we sometimes seem to lack, but we have just as much chance of going the other way.

Its a tough call to be making in a very winnable game. Lets hope the MC hasn't cost us the 'w'.

Attempting to see the positives in these changes...

Owies at least will bring forward line pressure.

Parks to defense.

Stocker into the midfield.

Dow into midfield.

SOJ obviously didn't come up.

Not sure why SPS got dropped? He's one of the few that actually can hit a target.

For $850000 as a member I expect the player being paid that sort of money to front up and shut up.
Hamstring, broken leg? Fine have a couple of weeks off.
General soreness? WTF? Taking the piss. I mean taking our money.
FFS you're a professional footballer, this is your job, one day a week.
General soreness?????

Not sure why SPS got dropped? He's one of the few that actually can hit a target.

  I would suggest because he hasn't been playing well and I don't think that can be disputed.  Mind you on that criteria rigouously applied we'd have a hell of a lot more outs.

So if we get done by 10 goals because Owies and Dow offered SFA.....will people realise why Murphy and SPS are in the team?

I hope the kids provide a spark that we sometimes seem to lack, but we have just as much chance of going the other way.

Its a tough call to be making in a very winnable game. Lets hope the MC hasn't cost us the 'w'.

If Owies and Dow dominate, can we never see Murph and SPS ever again?

Not sure why SPS got dropped? He's one of the few that actually can hit a target.

Seriously?

Owies, Dow and Parks in,

 Murf ,Williams [ injured} and SPS out. (omitted)

Finally.

Not sure why SPS got dropped? He's one of the few that actually can hit a target.

Yes, I tend to agree. Given the data from Daniel Hoyne about us being 18th for conceding scores from between-the-arc turnovers, I would have thought decent ball users would be an absolute top priority, even taking into account SPS' other failings.

Yes, I tend to agree. Given the data from Daniel Hoyne about us being 18th for conceding scores from between-the-arc turnovers, I would have thought decent ball users would be an absolute top priority, even taking into account SPS' other failings.

I'm not sure 10m sideways is decent ball use or really helps us at all!

So if we get done by 10 goals because Owies and Dow offered SFA.....will people realise why Murphy and SPS are in the team?

I hope the kids provide a spark that we sometimes seem to lack, but we have just as much chance of going the other way.

Its a tough call to be making in a very winnable game. Lets hope the MC hasn't cost us the 'w'.

Sadly SPS is still superior to any of those ins and the same applies with Murphy. That’s what happens when your list is shallow and the replacements are simply not up to the level. 

I agree with you but it was a big call to bring out the axe in a game we desperately need to win.

Oh well this time tomorrow we will have a better idea where we sit.

Petrevski out? .... finally got his right whack for his weak contributions

In: Paddy Dow, Matthew Owies, Luke Parks
Out: Marc Murphy (injured), Zac Williams (injured), Matthew Kennedy, Sam Petrevski-Seton

Emg: Kennedy, Petrevski-Seton, Will Setterfield and Tom Williamson

Very confusing

Newnes, Murphy would have the first two that I would have omitted, but the MC chooses SPS. He’s been played out of position most of the year and was far from our worst last week - terrible choice. Give the guy a go in the middle ffs.

Dow in is a positive, but on balance we’ve chosen a weaker side with all of Newnes, Parks, Betts, Plowman, Casboult and Owies all flying the flag tomorrow.

Good luck to all but I’m not filled with confidence.

 

If we lose tomorrow and there are calls for Teague to go, who would be his replacement?

People have been saying that Clarkson is a shoe-in, but on today's result he has shown that he is also incapable of winning with a below average or poor list.  And the same can be said of Ross Lyon.

It could be that good coaches get the best out of an average or very good group of players but there comes a point where a list can be so putrid that it's beyond the help of any coach.

If we lose tomorrow and there are calls for Teague to go, who would be his replacement?

We need an experienced coach, someone who's proven, someone who coached the big games.

Buckley! 

We need an experienced coach, someone who's proven, someone who coached the big games.

Buckley!

🤣

Kane Cornes. ;D

His post matches would be great.
He would criticize everyone...including the coach. ;)

Backs:  Lachie Plowman  Liam Jones  Adam Saad
Half-backs:  Sam Docherty  Jacob Weitering  Luke Parks
Centreline: David Cuningham  Sam Walsh  Jack Newnes
Half-forwards:  Levi Casboult  Mitch McGovern  Lachie Fogarty
Forwards:  Michael Gibbons  Harry McKay  Matthew Owies
Followers:  Marc Pittonet  Patrick Cripps  Ed Curnow
Interchange:  Eddie Betts  Matthew Cottrell  Paddy Dow  Liam Stocker
Emergencies:  Matthew Kennedy  Sam Petrevski-Seton  Will Setterfield  Tom Williamson


Gibbons, Casboult, Fogarty and Newnes all had really bad games last week where they didn't make an impression on the game. They all remain.

SPS was dropped: I didn't think he was that bad, although his disposal lately had been less than it should be.

We have one ruckman, up against two. I never like that, even if our ruck wins, as losing that player, Pittonet in this case, would be a disaster. However, the MC see it differently to me.

I would like to play Levi in defence, as Stringer plays as a key forward. I doubt it will happen.

Who is going to take out McDonald Tipungwuti? SPS has done the job well lately.

Kennedy needed a game after not playing last week at all. He showed enough against Gold Coast to suggest he deserves one. But I can understand why he was dropped: he needs a game!

I rarely see eye to eye with the MC. Somehow I can't see that changing any time soon.

Cue in the rack?

Cue in the rack?

Wouldn't think so...a few careers depending on that not being the case.

Some funny things going on at the club though.
The Worsfold appointment...at this stage of Teague's coaching?
The MLG and Judd decisions are understandable....but why announce them now?

I've been saying it since the preseason praccy games, quick side will trouble us. The cheats are a quick team and play a quick game, I think we are in strife tomorrow. When you look at the outs, SPS is slow, Williams is not quick (Lachie Neale ran him down on one leg last week), Murph has lost a yard. Dow is a burst player, not sure about Owies, Parks moves ok for a tallish bloke. The ins will help, but not enough I dont think.

Wouldn't think so...a few careers depending on that not being the case.

Some funny things going on at the club though.
The Worsfold appointment...at this stage of Teague's coaching?
The MLG and Judd decisions are understandable....but why announce them now?

Whoosha in the box tomorrow.

Still think we'll knock 'em off ... maybe x 24+

SPS would have been dropped for his lack of intent when chasing and contesting. He is neat enough with the ball but over does the sideways 15m kick IMO. I would have thought he would have played this game as Essendon are a team he has done ok against in the past when he has played on Tippa.
Owies isnt quick but is a straight kick....
Real challenge for Dow this game, Dons are quick and like to cheat on the outside so he cant be turning the ball over , they are going to run forward everytime he has the ball hoping for the easy kick on the rebound turnover.

Time for Captain Cripps to have a BOG game.

When was the last time? 2019?

If they're playing him injured, they should all be lined up....

Surely we'll turn up this afternoon....

Go Blues.

Odd the CheatsTV have scheduled both games, hubris?

A very 50/50 game IMO.

15th v 16th -ho hum to many.   Not confident,  but this is THE game we have to win.

Rigto, it on.
Go Blues

The chick doing the betting segment on channel 7

"A lot of late money coming in on the Blues but I'm not exactly sure why?"

LMAO

The chick doing the betting segment on channel 7

"A lot of late money coming in on the Blues but I'm not exactly sure why?"

LMAO

The betting agencies are always a good source of what's going to happen. Lets hope the idiot is wrong.

Bristle already warming up with pro cheats.com.au comments...  ::)  ::)  ::)

Last 5
Car
Ess
Car
Ess
Car

The chick doing the betting segment on channel 7

"A lot of late money coming in on the Blues but I'm not exactly sure why?"

LMAO

 CheatsTV and most of it's production staff is overloaded with CheatsFC fans, they are basically the CheastFC Fan Club.

Commentary by Ling, BT and D'Arcy was horrendous, couldn't half tell who they were supporting, the change in tone when we had control was obvious.
Shoving it up those clowns was part of the enjoyment in winning.
D'Arcy is the worst, just hope he isn't doing the Dogs game next week...

Commentary by Ling, BT and D'Arcy was horrendous, couldn't half tell who they were supporting, the change in tone when we had control was obvious.
Shoving it up those clowns was part of the enjoyment in winning.
D'Arcy is the worst, just hope he isn't doing the Dogs game next week...

Unashamed barracking was what it was.