Carlton Supporters Club

The game has been run. It is time to open our surgeon's kitbag and draw out the scalpels. And pray that the patient doesn't need our help.

As my mother likes to say, "Big Rahbish." The obligatory 4 goal loss.

I'm not sure if I'm pissed because I overestimated us / underestimated them, or just the we way we played the game. Maybe both.

The main guys on the ABC call, Nick Davis and Ryan O'Keefe, mentioned a few times that we are a team that relies less on system and more on individual brilliance. And that's a problem according to them. And I agree.

Blah.

Disgusting.

Murphy should retire now.

Docherty and Cottrell to the VFL.

Another comfortable loss and we had the added bonus of two spuds in Bailey Williams and Harry Edwards gifting us turnovers.
Its disappointing because WC are not very good and were undermanned yet we played a poor brand of football.
Stocker left on Liam Ryan...not sure what we were thinking there either....

Bit harsh on Docherty.

Who comes in though?

I'd get Boyd into the side ASAP. Not sure if he needs to quarantine or what, but straight in IMO.
Honey was thereabouts a couple of weeks ago, he gets a go.
Who else have we got??

As my mother likes to say, "Big Rahbish." The obligatory 4 goal loss.

I'm not sure if I'm pissed because I overestimated us / underestimated them, or just the we way we played the game. Maybe both.

The main guys on the ABC call, Nick Davis and Ryan O'Keefe, mentioned a few times that we are a team that relies less on system and more on individual brilliance. And that's a problem according to them. And I agree.

Blah.

What individual brilliance,  I must have missed that.

What individual brilliance,  I must have missed that.

Lol. yes, well..................

Their established players are mostly from the 2018 flag. And that group is better than our established players. And their kids today slotted in seamlessly and just seemed to know what to do.

I'm pretty pissed about this loss. This is 100% a head space issue IMO. Davis and O'Keefe stated that winning and losing are both habits, and unfortunately the latter is very hard to break.  As has been discussed on here many times.

Inside 50's: 47-57
Efficiency Inside 50: 42.1%
Clearances:  24-37
Centre Clearances:  9-15
Contested Possessions:  112-135

Yeah that looks like Murphy's on the half forward flanks fault.   

Sheed, Nit Nat and the Midfield smashed us.     We still need mids, mids and more mids.

Murphy was poor but Jack Martin continues to disappoint IMO, Yeo was second game back after a long lay off and copped a knock in the head but was influential in the contests ,getting physical with our blokes and looking after Cripps.
Williams and Saad were ok but Martin isnt doing enough, he has the skills but continues as he did at GC to have low possession games and I'd be giving him a rocket if I was the coach and telling him to lift his work rate.

We have no passion, no desire, and no system.   Our mids were chopped to pieces, our decision making is unbelievably bad, and did we even have a forward line?

Forget that we lost Harry, forget that we missed easy shots at goal.   Didn't even deserve to get that close.

2021 shot to pieces.  That is without a doubt the most disappointing effort for the whole year.  I'm not even sure I can watch this team any more.  They find new ways to let you down every week. 

Sadly, I can't see how we are going to turn it around. 

If we can’t beat a injury riddled middle of the road team let’s cut the crap and excuses we are miles off it on every level.

Midfield smashed AGAIN. Negative 25 contested pos against a middle road team missing a few of their prime mids. I mean this really shows how far off we are in the middle. Blokes like setterfield Cottrell Martin Dow are not the answer so apart from Walsh and Cripps who was sh1te today our midfield wouldn’t dominate in the vfl.

The rebuild is now seriously looking more like a failure more then a success.

No Membership for me next year. Not a chance.

Oh the defend Murphy brigade.

No passengers and he has been a passenger for years now. Didnt even look like he was trying today or last week when he came on.

Cripps has to take a big pay cut. He is not an 800k player anymore.

As my mother likes to say, "Big Rahbish." The obligatory 4 goal loss.

I'm not sure if I'm pissed because I overestimated us / underestimated them, or just the we way we played the game. Maybe both.

The main guys on the ABC call, Nick Davis and Ryan O'Keefe, mentioned a few times that we are a team that relies less on system and more on individual brilliance. And that's a problem according to them. And I agree.

Blah.

I think this is very much at the core of the problem.
We have some talented players but they don't work together as well as other sides.
A lot of that has to do with games together.
Injuries and a the introduction of new players into the side is a big factor in this and it's not likely we'll suddenly develop those understandings to a large degree in the remainder of this season.
How we use these players, the structures and systems we're trying to introduce are a little unclear...that's an issue for the coaching staff (if there are any left after the bye)

Chris Judd said it 3 years ago. At the Eagles the only focus was on how they can get better and challenge for the flag. When he came to Carlton all he heard from the players was about their next contract.

I love Docherty but he's not half the player he was. Forget disposal numbers or dream team points, he can't compete the same anymore.

Got smashed at the stoppages/clearances......like I have been saying for a while we need another couple of big coalface mids to help Cripps and Walsh. That has to be a recruiting priority along with a defender who can take these small/medium forwards who can take a mark.

Sad to say it but he looks finished.   Two kneesxplus cancer,  he's a shell of the player he was.

Murphy was finished two years ago. Embarrassed himself today.  

Setterfield and Martin play soft football and look like they don't give a....   These are the types we need to cull out.   Now.

Oh the defend Murphy brigade.

No passengers and he has been a passenger for years now. Didnt even look like he was trying today or last week when he came on.

Oh the bag Murphy brigade.   Did you see when he short stepped that contest.   Can't remember then, but it was right in front of me.   He doesn't go hard enough.   It's dribble to be honest.

The bloke is playing half forward flank.   Sheed and the midfield smashed us.

I love Docherty but he's not half the player he was. Forget disposal numbers or dream team points, he can't compete the same anymore.

Brave player on and off the field but I agree and wouldnt have him down back anymore unless we are short of players.
He isnt great overhead and looks slower and shaky in heavy traffic, we have Williams, Saad and Docherty who want to sit behind the ball for the easy intercept and rebound and its not working.
As someone else on another thread said we need that Brayden Maynard physical, contested type of half back to supplement these rebounders.

Sad to say it but he looks finished.   Two kneesxplus cancer,  he's a shell of the player he was.

Murphy was finished two years ago. Embarrassed himself today.  

Setterfield and Martin play soft football and look like they don't give a....   These are the types we need to cull out.   Now.

Agree sadly on all counts

I think this is very much at the core of the problem.
We have some talented players but they don't work together as well as other sides.
A lot of that has to do with games together.
Injuries and a the introduction of new players into the side is a big factor in this and it's not likely we'll suddenly develop those understandings to a large degree in the remainder of this season.
How we use these players, the structures and systems we're trying to introduce are a little unclear...that's an issue for the coaching staff (if there are any left after the bye)

That's a good post Lods. I tend to agree.

Harry out?

MBB's mate was right, he just got the timing wrong  :(

I love Docherty but he's not half the player he was. Forget disposal numbers or dream team points, he can't compete the same anymore.

Agree he is not the same player but still is a AFL quality footballer never the less.

Our issue are far deeper then Docherty not being the player he was, imo it’s with the amount of so called footballers that make their way on the park every week for us that are vfl players or very average AFL level. Simply have too many of those sorts getting a game week in week out to be anything more then a bottom 6 team.  And the sad part is apart from Charlie and maybe plowman and if you really want to be generous McGovern who is out that you know without doubt will instantly improve us. The rest are shuffling of deck chairs at best and hoping like hell someone we have surprises us.
Only the most one eyed fan can keep hoping after what we have seen this year. Year 6 of a complete rebuild.

Also to add to that, I like the look of Martin but He really doesn’t seem to gaf.

I love Eddie but he jokes with the opposition as well which I don’t like during the game at all but he earns his keep and he’s a unique player.

I just feel that most of them do not bleed for this club, they dgaf about losses yea the Cottrells may not be as silk as say Martin or Williams but they gaf.

Williams has been a big disappointment to me, way overpaid.

Wondering if cripps’ homelife alters how he plays - partner with anxiety disorder back in Lockdown back In Melbourne, maybe some personal stuff going on?

We have been beaten, confortably, but a 2nd's team and quite honestly we've been doing this for many years so it's hard to see were the improvements have come. Had to laugh when BT on the box today patronised us by saying at least we weren't being beaten by 100+ points anymore. Well Brian, maybe that had something to do with us playing a 2nd's team, no?


Onto the positives,
1. I think Dow did enough to stay in the side. Well I hope so. No point in continuing with spuds like Setterfield. He is officially cooked. Seeya later.
2. I think SOS has had another success with Stocker. Time to release him from the BP and play him on the ball. What is the point of him playing in a BP
3. Jack S was terrific today (still on one shoulder I believe). If only we could extract his heart and split it into 5 separate pieces to then be transplanted into others in the team.
4. TDK should be played more as the 1st ruck and Pitt, as serviceable as is he is, needs to be "managed".
5. Week off next week so we can all relax and enjoy our weekend.

Not sure whether it’s our system or our players or a combination

Our structure is all over the place, but on top of that we have a combination of players who are either very slow learners and some that don’t like the contest.

All of the following meet at least one of those limbs  - Jones, Newnes, Cottrell, Curnow, Murphy, Pittonet, Setterfield

We’re a bottom four side again

WC still had Nic Nat, Hurn, Barass, Cole, Redden, Yeo, Darling, Cripps, Sheed and Ryan from their 2018 flag. 10 out of 18. That's not a seconds team, it's an A grade senior team, with class and premiership experience. I can't speak for others, but I got a little ahead of myself thinking this would be an easy win. A win, yes. Anyway.....................

We have been beaten, confortably, but a 2nd's team and quite honestly we've been doing this for many years so it's hard to see were the improvements have come. Had to laugh when BT on the box today patronised us by saying at least we weren't being beaten by 100+ points anymore. Well Brian, maybe that had something to do with us playing a 2nd's team, no?


Onto the positives,
1. I think Dow did enough to stay in the side. Well I hope so. No point in continuing with spuds like Setterfield. He is officially cooked. Seeya later.
2. I think SOS has had another success with Stocker. Time to release him from the BP and play him on the ball. What is the point of him playing in a BP
3. Jack S was terrific today (still on one shoulder I believe). If only we could extract his heart and split it into 5 separate pieces to then be transplanted into others in the team.
4. TDK should be played more as the 1st ruck and Pitt, as serviceable as is he is, needs to be "managed".
5. Week off next week so we can all relax and enjoy our weekend.

Agree. Dow has skills, still saw him not put pressure on the opponent which is so frustrating but generally he did some smart things when he got the ball.

Really really disappointed in Murph today, it looked almost intentional his pathetic disposal time and again. He is that beat too slow now too. Done.

I can’t imagine a result with more players available for the Eagles. Not the result we needed today. Some players need to show more leadership.

After watching that, Murphy would be stranded on 295.  He doesn't deserve the 300 in the company of true champions.

A new contract for Eddie if he wishes.  He is just that good.

Teague?   Woteva you're doin' son, it ain't workin'
 


 

Coach..... next!
Captain.....next!
We are pathetic and have really low goals as kpi's.
This club only has two good things going for it.
It's history.
And it's membership dept that keeps sucking us in.

At least we won’t lose by 4 goals next week.

Seriously if I hear about running patterns and trg blocks again I’ll spew....

Smurf you have been great but it’s time to hang them up..
Ed must be injured.
Settlefield - goodbye
Cottrell - enough
Owies - just hangs on
Cripps - don’t know
Pitt - try’s but
TDK - just
Teague just hanging on.. need some decent assistants but we are Carlton


Imagine Walsh roving to Nick knickers. He killed us today...

Positives -

Walsh - wish we had 10 of him
Fisher first half
Weiterng - should be Captain
JSOS - see Walsh
Saad - tries hard

Don’t know how much better we will be with our so called stars to come back....

Time to give more kids a go but it won’t happen.

Trade SPS and a pick for Cerra.
Get another quality midfielder as well....

Got smashed at the stoppages/clearances......like I have been saying for a while we need another of big coalface mids to help Cripps and Walsh. That has to be a recruiting priority along with a defender who can take these small/medium forwards who can take a mark.

You say help Cripps, I cant but thinking we need someone to take over. More often than not these days, I look away in fear when he get the ball. I’m sure there be excuses made for him.
As for the performance, across the board we were terrible. Not going to name names or comment, CBF.

PS
0-7 against top 8 sides

MBB's mate was right, he just got the timing wrong  :(

Look out Maidstone!

WC still had Nic Nat, Hurn, Barass, Cole, Redden, Yeo, Darling, Cripps, Sheed and Ryan from their 2018 flag. 10 out of 18. That's not a seconds team, it's an A grade senior team, with class and premiership experience. I can't speak for others, but I got a little ahead of myself thinking this would be an easy win. A win, yes. Anyway.....................

They had some real spuds in today, they were average we were terrible. Look at their record away and on this ground.
This was a disaster imo..

They had some real spuds in today, they were average we were terrible. Look at their record away and on this ground.
This was a disaster imo..

It wasn't a great game by any means, but their team today had premiership players on every line, they have winning habits, and simply know how to get the job done, even under adversity. I know they don't travel too well.

I'm pretty disappointed, and whilst that team was the weakest they have fielded against us for some time, more than half is top quality.

WC still had Nic Nat, Hurn, Barass, Cole, Redden, Yeo, Darling, Cripps, Sheed and Ryan from their 2018 flag. 10 out of 18. That's not a seconds team, it's an A grade senior team, with class and premiership experience. I can't speak for others, but I got a little ahead of myself thinking this would be an easy win. A win, yes. Anyway.....................

They had a WAY, WAY better side in last year when we played them over there in WA and took it up to them only to be denied by umpire 22. They lost to Essenscum last week and were 5 down from that side this week. Whichever way you look at it todays result was a disaster, but nothing we're not used to. Serious problems.

They had some real spuds in today, they were average we were terrible. Look at their record away and on this ground.
This was a disaster imo..

Nearly every game is a disaster. Not much changes week to week.

Those of us old enough to remember Superman will know that contact with kryptonite would make him go all weak at the knees.

The 50 metre arc has the same effect on our forwards.  With the exception of Harry no forward will attempt to kick that distance from a set shot.

You can see the whites of their eyes as they desperately try to give the ball off to another forward, usually in a far worse position.

The best example today was when Owies took a mark about 45 metres from goal.  Being a forward in the forbidden zone he passed to Murphy who was about 30 metres out.  Feeling weak at the knees he managed to kick the ball  to Cottrell who was about 20 metres out.  Fortunately he was able to gather enough strength to kick the goal.

Seriously, what a miserable, unprofessional game from a group masquerading as AFL players.

They had some real spuds in today, they were average we were terrible. Look at their record away and on this ground.
This was a disaster imo..

That is as damning a post as I have read after a loss.

They had a WAY, WAY better side in last year when we played them over there in WA and took it up to them only to be denied by umpire 22. They lost to Essenscum last week and were 5 down from that side this week. Whichever way you look at it todays result was a disaster, but nothing we're not used to. Serious problems.

Actually this post is more damning than @ElwoodBlues1 post.

Nearly every game is a disaster. Not much changes week to week.

This is one we didn't to have to play like champs to win and we let it slip, I can cop losses but this one really annoyed me as it was setup for us to win but we managed to balls it up.

Chris Judd said it 3 years ago. At the Eagles the only focus was on how they can get better and challenge for the flag. When he came to Carlton all he heard from the players was about their next contract.

Then not many of them would deserve one.

This is one we didn't to have to play like champs to win and we let it slip, I can cop losses but this one really annoyed me as it was setup for us to win but we managed to balls it up.

Sadly, wasn't the slightest bit surprised.

Don't see it stopping any time soon in the next few years too unless some attitudes change within the club.

The main guys on the ABC call, Nick Davis and Ryan O'Keefe, mentioned a few times that we are a team that relies less on system and more on individual brilliance. And that's a problem according to them. And I agree.
Blah.

I am afraid that we do need to have a change in coach.
I hate saying that, as it is an admission of failure. But we have failed. There is no greater certainty this year.
[1] We do not have a good system, or, if there is one, we don't appear to follow it.
[2] We don't win enough one-on-ones, mainly because our opposition is streaming forward with little pressure.
[3] Our ruck division is not up to taking on the AFL's best. Teams with a good ruckman smash us. Even Collingwood, and they are terrible.
[4] After the Hawthorn game I mentioned that even they have a better system than we do, and they are rubbish this year. You could see by the way they positioned themselves.
[5] Our players do not believe in themselves. They are accepting defeat too easily.

The season is over. After the bye, assuming we still have it, we need to start seeing if our kids have what it takes.

I really hate that, as it is an admission of failure, but what else can we do?

Sheeeesh😰

I'm all out of hope for this you beaut rebuild. Not only that but my optimistic mindset is being seriously challenged by the assurances, propaganda, and performances of our team. None of it adds up. I doubt I'll continue my long-term membership.

I see the progress of sides like the Swans and even the Bombers. There's no excuse/s I can think of that makes sense of our relative lack of progress at this point of the rebuild. We are still the laughingstock of the competition despite spending big on 2 good/average players. Now we're reportedly struggling to find the cash it sign the likes of our captain, main goalkicker, and main mid. What a predicament 😩

To say I'm frustrated by today's performance over a seriously undermanned WC is a sad but true understatement.

In terms of hope for improvement post-bye. We have Walsh and Harry who we can rely on consistently, and Samo in terms of durability. Then there's daylight and no clear way forward.

End of rant.

I'll keep reading in hope of finding some positives 🤞

Murphy was poor but Jack Martin continues to disappoint IMO, Yeo was second game back after a long lay off and copped a knock in the head but was influential in the contests ,getting physical with our blokes and looking after Cripps.
Williams and Saad were ok but Martin isnt doing enough, he has the skills but continues as he did at GC to have low possession games and I'd be giving him a rocket if I was the coach and telling him to lift his work rate.

Tell me
What has Martin achieved in his whole career

The review should be fun this week, lots and lots of below average footage to trawl through and enjoy with the the guys. Seriously, they should review the game altogether in a room, Prez down to bootstudder. Look each other in the eye and sign off and what they are going to do to fix it. EVERYONE to a man/woman.

Coaches presser -

“We’ve got to roll our sleeves up and get back to the basics”

FARKllllllll

Guys, we lost! Stop having a go at each other. This behaviour is not satisfactory!

I am afraid that we do need to have a change in coach.
....................................

I think that would be a disaster.

From the outside we see a continuous period of failure. But inside the CFC, the club has experienced nothing but discontinuity, across playing group, coaching group, executive, strategy, vision etc. The last thing they need is more upheaval. None of the previous coaches are problems in and of themselves.

What we really need is a super human sports psychologist who can climb into the players' brains and rewire them to something more akin to a successful club.

Nothing will be gained by changing the coach IMO.

Sheeeesh😰

I'm all out of hope for this you beaut rebuild. Not only that but my optimistic mindset is being seriously challenged by the assurances, propaganda, and performances of our team. None of it adds up. I doubt I'll continue my long-term membership.

I see the progress of sides like the Swans and even the Bombers. There's no excuse/s I can think of that makes sense of our relative lack of progress at this point of the rebuild. We are still the laughingstock of the competition despite spending big on 2 good/average players. Now we're reportedly struggling to find the cash it sign the likes of our captain, main goalkicker, and main mid. What a predicament 😩

To say I'm frustrated by today's performance over a seriously undermanned WC is a sad but true understatement.

In terms of hope for improvement post-bye. We have Walsh and Harry who we can rely on consistently, and Samo in terms of durability. Then there's daylight and no clear way forward.

End of rant.

I'll keep reading in hope of finding some positives 🤞

Hit the nail on the head. Agree totally with all of that. I’m lost faith completely.

I am afraid that we do need to have a change in coach.
I hate saying that, as it is an admission of failure. But we have failed. There is no greater certainty this year.
[1] We do not have a good system, or, if there is one, we don't appear to follow it.
[2] We don't win enough one-on-ones, mainly because our opposition is streaming forward with little pressure.
[3] Our ruck division is not up to taking on the AFL's best. Teams with a good ruckman smash us. Even Collingwood, and they are terrible.
[4] After the Hawthorn game I mentioned that even they have a better system than we do, and they are rubbish this year. You could see by the way they positioned themselves.
[5] Our players do not believe in themselves. They are accepting defeat too easily.

The season is over. After the bye, assuming we still have it, we need to start seeing if our kids have what it takes.

I really hate that, as it is an admission of failure, but what else can we do?

What to do? Dunno mate, its rnd 12 and we have been seeing the same thing more or less every week. We have been hearing the same thing more or less every week in the pressers from the coach, CEO, Footy Manager, High Performance guy. But nothing changes.
So here's my suggestion. They need to sit down as a group from the Prez to the Bootstudder over the next two weeks and work out how to change or fortunes. And the fact we have injuries to key players is NOT an excuse, I would tell the group at the start of the session, if the injury word is used, that person will be fired. We just lost to a side who supposedly fielded a VFL side so no excuses.
As a group, we must use this break wisely and plan the rectification. If things dont change, there must be consequences.

I heard on the news tonight that influential Carlton backers are unhappy with the Board and are expecting some action in coming weeks.

I heard on the news tonight that influential Carlton backers are unhappy with the Board and are expecting some action in coming weeks.

Lol. There's only one "action" Carlton knows.

Liddle has defined the path we are on, set the goals and has to be accountable for where we are.

Lol. There's only one "action" Carlton knows.

Full backing of the board hay Pauly?

Liddle has defined the path we are on, set the goals and has to be accountable for where we are.

Its the bye, it hasn't gone to plan to date, use the time wisely.

Full backing of the board hay Pauly?

Yep. Good old Cain. Too funny.

Bad timing to drop Casboult.

More of the old, we all sat down as a group and handed out some "home truths" and the players really took it on board and committed to turning things around and blah, blah, blah . . . . . . . .   insert throwing up emoji here---->

More of the old, we all sat down as a group and handed out some "home truths" and the players really took it on board and committed to turning things around and blah, blah, blah . . . . . . . .   insert throwing up emoji here---->

what would you do if you were the prez?

Why is Saad playing like a basketballer or netballer? He uses his speed to close in on a guy who has just taken possession of a ground ball, but then, instead of launching into a bone-rattling tackle, he pulls up a metre away and dances around with his arms up in the air. Meanwhile, the guy with the ball takes the opportunity to measure a 20 metre handball to an open team mate. WTF?

Why is Saad playing like a basketballer or netballer? He uses his speed to close in on a guy who has just taken possession of a ground ball, but then, instead of launching into a bone-rattling tackle, he pulls up a metre away and dances around with his arms up in the air. Meanwhile, the guy with the ball takes the opportunity to measure a 20 metre handball to an open team mate. WTF?

It’s funny, I watched Saad a bit and thought he is one that goes and goes again and again.

I think what’s happening is some players are trying to take it on and take all the responsibility and run themselves ragged and out of position to cover for others’ shortcomings

Why is Saad playing like a basketballer or netballer? He uses his speed to close in on a guy who has just taken possession of a ground ball, but then, instead of launching into a bone-rattling tackle, he pulls up a metre away and dances around with his arms up in the air. Meanwhile, the guy with the ball takes the opportunity to measure a 20 metre handball to an open team mate. WTF?

Is it a team thing ? I notice many of our players do this. We rank 15th for average tackles per game. I know Teague has mentioned a few times he doesn't want players being sucked in to the contest, being on the ground as the loose ball bobbles out.

what would you do if you were the prez?

Crikey, that's a tough one. I've been the president of a local football club, but that just meant doing all those jobs that no one else would do. Never interfered with the running of the team or offered advice on how the team could improve so I suggest that's probably how things work at the top level, but if I had the opportunity, personally, I would sit down one on one with each and every player and ask them to be honest with me and let me know what is wrong, how do we fix it and do you want to be a part of the solution.

Liddle has defined the path we are on, set the goals and has to be accountable for where we are.

Some of it.    The big question about SOS's rebuild was the midfield.

He added Kennedy and Setterfield via trades.
Drafted Dow, O'Brien, Cuningham, Petrevski-Seton, Fisher, Stocker and Philp
After SOS we add Williams on good money.

And.... our midfield is still an issue.     Others factors at play and you could add development and tactics to recruitment.

Bad timing to drop Casboult.

I wanted him in last week for the reasons we needed him in this week.

Sometimes things just don't go your way.

https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=5540.msg335872#msg335872

Crikey, that's a tough one. I've been the president of a local football club, but that just meant doing all those jobs that no one else would do. Never interfered with the running of the team or offered advice on how the team could improve so I suggest that's probably how things work at the top level, but if I had the opportunity, personally, I would sit down one on one with each and every player and ask them to be honest with me and let me know what is wrong, how do we fix it and do you want to be a part of the solution.

If I was one of those players, I know exactly what I'd say, and you wouldn't file it under "a few gentle words of encouragement."

I am afraid that we do need to have a change in coach.
I hate saying that, as it is an admission of failure. But we have failed. There is no greater certainty this year.
[1] We do not have a good system, or, if there is one, we don't appear to follow it.
[2] We don't win enough one-on-ones, mainly because our opposition is streaming forward with little pressure.
[3] Our ruck division is not up to taking on the AFL's best. Teams with a good ruckman smash us. Even Collingwood, and they are terrible.
[4] After the Hawthorn game I mentioned that even they have a better system than we do, and they are rubbish this year. You could see by the way they positioned themselves.
[5] Our players do not believe in themselves. They are accepting defeat too easily.

The season is over. After the bye, assuming we still have it, we need to start seeing if our kids have what it takes.

I really hate that, as it is an admission of failure, but what else can we do?

Well said Crash. I agree with each point, to varying degrees.

[3] to a lesser degree in terms of the role more than the personnel. Good midfielders adapt quickly to play off a dominant ruck. We've seen this many times against top ruckman. You only have to see how Parish played WC last week

Someone else mentioned the role of the Sports Psychologist. I'd add that to your list Crash. Definitely think that's an area worthy of a thorough review. We look soft in physical and mental attributes, and spiritless. Somehow lacking the glue that makes individuals a team. A team with clear goals, methods, resources, and resultant outcomes, we are not.

Inside 50's: 47-57
Efficiency Inside 50: 42.1%
Clearances:  24-37
Centre Clearances:  9-15
Contested Possessions:  112-135

Yeah that looks like Murphy's on the half forward flanks fault.   

Sheed, Nit Nat and the Midfield smashed us.     We still need mids, mids and more mids.

Centre clearances have been a huge issue for about the last month.  I know I watch with one eye, but, at the centre bounce, every time the oppo gets their hand on the ball they seem to be able to run free, every time we
touch it, we are tackled (many times before we touch it).  Are we not ruthless enough in listing the boundaries on the rules??  Cripps is held at every bounce before he touches it, why don’t we do the same??

https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=5540.msg335872#msg335872

Come on blind Freedy could of predicated that result. We have be loosing by 3 - 4 goals all year.  ::)  ::)

More of the old, we all sat down as a group and handed out some "home truths" and the players really took it on board and committed to turning things around and blah, blah, blah . . . . . . . .   insert throwing up emoji here---->🤮🤮

That's a good post Lods. I tend to agree.

It’s amazing how many times a handball either missed by an inch, or hit a bloke under the hammer - just little things that cost us big.  Maybe this is just a factor of not playing together enough, along with confidence

Bad timing to drop Casboult.

Had to be done, was next to useless last week and would not have made one iota of difference today I reckon.

https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=5540.msg335872#msg335872

Every game against a top 8 side is the same result.
16 points to 28 points.....every one of them.

Crikey, that's a tough one. I've been the president of a local football club, but that just meant doing all those jobs that no one else would do. Never interfered with the running of the team or offered advice on how the team could improve so I suggest that's probably how things work at the top level, but if I had the opportunity, personally, I would sit down one on one with each and every player and ask them to be honest with me and let me know what is wrong, how do we fix it and do you want to be a part of the solution.

Something different needs to be done by the entire staff Rock. If this continues after the bye, its gonna get ugly.

Guys, we lost! Stop having a go at each other. This behaviour is not satisfactory!

Why were those posts deleted? It wasn't offensive and I love laj's insightful and awesome game knowledge and this needs to be brought to the fore. Everyone should have the pleasure of learning from his critical thinking and mastery of the English language...

Jog on... 🤘👌👀

It’s amazing how many times a handball either missed by an inch, or hit a bloke under the hammer - just little things that cost us big.  Maybe this is just a factor of not playing together enough, along with confidence

It's a strong possibility. Our two prized recruits, who were supposed to propel us up the ladder, have played about 10 games with us. You don't build synergy and connection in that time frame IMO.

I hope that's all it is, and there isn't issues that are harder to fix.

Liddle has defined the path we are on, set the goals and has to be accountable for where we are.

Not sure how many he missed today, from 30 out

Every game against a top 8 side is the same result.
16 points to 28 points.....every one of them.

Kruddler I know you've watched our boys closely for a long time. Overall, we've had similar views.

I'd be keen to hear how you expect us to go post-bye against generally lower ranked teams.

I agree.    Casboult has struggled all year with his knee and poor form. 

However we do continue to pick underdone players and for a 2nd week in a row struggled to run out a game.  

Fisher looked great early.   Unsighted late.

Coaches presser -

“We’ve got to roll our sleeves up and get back to the basics”

FARKllllllll

Please tell me he didn't say that.

A slightly unusual game for WC. They like to play a precise kick mark game, which usually means they have more uncontested possession and more marks than their opposition. Today, they killed us in the contest. We had more marks, and more uncontested possessions, and it's unusual for WC to lost those stats. We also had less turnovers and a greater DE.

Presser - “ I believe in this group”

Would you ever see Ron Barassi High Five his players.... PERLEASE

Just back from watching my second game in 7 days - a blessing and curse for my son and I.

Only things to add from last week.

1 - The leadership of this team [captains, senior players and coaches] have some serious questions to answer over the break. The lack of system, structure, desperation and commitment when the going gets hard is glaring - and every opposition knows it. The lack of pressure  and blokes going only 80% is shocking. And it starts at the top - Cripps doesn’t run anywhere near hard enough when we don’t have the ball, Murphy is embarrassing in his his lack of physicality and determination, and even Weitering looks like he is struggling to get out of second gear. We have plenty of guys not playing to an acceptable standard, but it always starts at the top.
2 - our ability to execute our skills under pressure and find a player in a better position is amateur hour most of the time. The number of times we crapped ourselves and kicked the ball straight to a WCE player was almost laughable in the end. The way we move the ball forward on anything other than a fast break is excruciating to watch live.
3 - the question I would ask the players and coaches is “what do they stand for”? Their is a lot of very good footballers in that list but collectively they play with no teamwork, no desire and no hunger. They lack physicality, skills and fitness. They aren’t a smart team, or physically tough. At the moment the team stands for absolutely nothing as far as I can see.
4 -  after watching the same thing happen 8 times in 12 weeks any sensible leader would ask themselves “what are we going to do differently to get a different result next time?”. What is the circuit breaker or light bulb moment for this group?

You can’t tell me that they haven’t “been rolling the sleeves up a doing the hard work” for the last 12 games so the coach saying that is a nonsense. IMO the coach is on very thin ice as we are clearly a bottom 6 team right now and that is simply not acceptable. I have never been a ‘sack the coach’ person but after watching the same thing for a season and half with almost zero discernible forward progress for this group I would be sounding out Clarkson. We need someone who really knows to set high standards of performance and not settle for anything less.


 

Kruddler I know you've watched our boys closely for a long time. Overall, we've had similar views.

I'd be keen to hear how you expect us to go post-bye against generally lower ranked teams.

I've kinda talked about it a bit just now in this thread....
https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=5377.msg337029

I expect to go well.

As long as we don't completely change tact and say this season is a right off and say, drop Murphy for the rest of the year and play LOB for 'development' then i think we should fall close to, but just outside the 8......basically as expected at the start of the year.

My biggest worry at this point is that with the natives being restless, our club will go into its usual self destruct mode and everything goes out the window. If we keep doing what we are doing, yes i know how that sounds, then by the end of the year we will be a confident team who has won more than they've lost in the second half of the year and are looking forward to continuing that into 2022.

I'm looking forward to seeing Charlie and Harry in the same side.
I'm looking forward to seeing how much TDK improves being fully fit.
I'm looking forward to seeing Dow growing each week to a point where he belongs.
I'm looking forward to seeing a team that we can be proud of.

- It starts with GWS in 2 weeks time. Plenty of scouting time. Plenty of reevaluation time and some hard truths. If we don't come out snarling in that one, THEN you should be worried.
- Then we are scheduled to play Crows in Melbourne. Certainly winnable, i expect to win.
- Dockers in WA looking for revenge, but we seem to play well against them.
Suddenly we've got 3 in a row.
- Tough one against the Cats follows. Loss.
- Then the run we've been waiting for. Pies, Kangas, Saints, Suns.......4 winnable games.
At this stage, we could very easily have won  7 from our last 8 games and the Teague Train is back on track. However, i do expect us to lose one of those games and be 6 from 8.
- Finish with Port and Giants again, call it 1-1.
End result is 11-11 finish.

I'm sorry I'm not buying what you're selling.  Elapsed form says the chances of us beating anybody are very slim.   To get to 11 wins we need to get 7 from 11.  I applaud your fanatical optimism,  but reality says that prediction is wildly optimistic and utterly unrealistic. 

Not sure how many he missed today, from 30 out

He was the one quoting finals, he is accountable for the entire administration and his mate Lloyd is accountable for the footy dept, he sacked the head of list management and gave his mates the job.
We lost to a undermanned WC team through lack of effort not through poor goal kicking....
The buck stops with Liddle and Lloyd this time...not the usual sacrificial lamb in the coach.

I'm sorry I'm not buying what you're selling.  Elapsed form says the chances of us beating anybody are very slim.   To get to 11 wins we need to get 7 from 11.  I applaud your fanatical optimism,  but reality says that prediction is wildly optimistic and utterly unrealistic. 

Prediction is based on nothing but exposed form.
We lose to top 8 sides.
We beat sides outside the 8......but lose 1 we shouldn't.

That gets you to 11-11.

Prediction is based on nothing but exposed form.
We lose to top 8 sides.
We beat sides outside the 8......but lose 1 we shouldn't.

That gets you to 11-11.

Saints have the biggest losing average but does anyone seriously think we could beat them given our form and their past record against us.
Apart from Nth I wouldnt rate us as favorites vs any team...

As dissatisfied as I was with that we could have won that with better conversion.

West Coast took their chances better, but we are a side void of confidence and fitness.

We carry 4 or 5 that don't look capable of playing 4 quarters each and every week.

Harry going down was a big issue and as much as I like de koning he isn't a 4 quarter player at this stage.

He was the one quoting finals, he is accountable for the entire administration and his mate Lloyd is accountable for the footy dept, he sacked the head of list management and gave his mates the job.
We lost to a undermanned WC team through lack of effort not through poor goal kicking....
The buck stops with Liddle and Lloyd this time...not the usual sacrificial lamb in the coach.

agree

Saints have the biggest losing average but does anyone seriously think we could beat them given our form and their past record against us.
Apart from Nth I wouldnt rate us as favorites vs any team...

The one positive thing this season i can say is that we could beat anyone, even though we most likely won't.

Out of form and confidence.

The one positive thing this season i can say is that we could beat anyone, even though we most likely won't.

Out of form and confidence.

I think we lack players in key areas, have too many of a certain type of player and not enough depth in other areas.
In short I think we need a list reset with an emphasis on the midfield, the Williams move was a failure trying to cheat with him as a mid and Martin is the same at this point in time as a part time mid and we need more specialist midfield support for Cripps and Walsh urgently.

I think we lack players in key areas, have too many of a certain type of player and not enough depth in other areas.
In short I think we need a list reset with an emphasis on the midfield, the Williams move was a failure trying to cheat with him as a mid and Martin is the same at this point in time as a part time mid and we need more specialist midfield support for Cripps and Walsh urgently.

True enough. The game is won in the midfield. We haven't got close to putting a combination of reliable consistent mids together. At best it's been piecemeal. Not sure if the personnel will come from the current list, or arrive off season.

This group needs to have the balance of inside/outside attributes. They need to have the experience that enables them to know who/how/when to use their teammate. That takes time although can happen quite quickly with a consistent line up.

Due to injury, form, coaching decisions, underdevelopment, or favour, we've not seen that midfield play together. Think about the midfielders we have: Murph, Ed, Cripps, Setters, Samo, Fisher, Kennedy, Dow, LOB, Walsh, Stocker, Philp. Once we see this midfield get games together, I think we'll see more wins.

Dare to dream that this coming together coincides with some good health and form of the fwd/back lines 🤞

Prediction is based on nothing but exposed form.
We lose to top 8 sides.
We beat sides outside the 8......but lose 1 we shouldn't.

That gets you to 11-11.

We lost to Collingwood - Aren’t they 3rd last and also lost to a VFL version of west coast. Is that team they fielded today a top side?  Please.

How you think beating GWS away after the bye is any easier then our last 2 losses is beyond me.

Your correct our 4 wins were against bottom sides but all 4 we should have comfortably accounted for yet all except the dockers were underwhelming wins.
We lost to 4 top teams imo in Melbourne, bulldogs, port and tigers.
The other losses were to teams we should be beating imo if we had improved as we all expected but we failed all those challenges.

Hope your right about us storming home but it’s more wishful thinking then reading our formline so far.
A midfield consisting of Cripps who looks about as unfit as any midfielder I’ve ever seen, a 50 game star In Walsh and then a cooked tagger in Ed so good luck trying to compete with anyone with any confidence when thats your midfield. And remind me all the stars we have waiting on the injury front to help fill those massive holes.  We are miles off it.

Time to take off the blue glasses mate.

We lost to Collingwood - Aren’t they 3rd last and also lost to a VFL version of west coast. Is that team they fielded today a top side?  Please.

How many times do i need to talk about your inability to comprehend English before you actually learn to read what i write?

Prediction is based on nothing but exposed form.
We lose to top 8 sides.
We beat sides outside the 8......but lose 1 we shouldn't.

That gets you to 11-11.

That was the collingwood game you speak of.

Keep up mate.

We lost to Collingwood - Aren’t they 3rd last and also lost to a VFL version of west coast. Is that team they fielded today a top side?  Please.

How you think beating GWS away after the bye is any easier then our last 2 losses is beyond me.

Your correct our 4 wins were against bottom sides but all 4 we should have comfortably accounted for yet all except the dockers were underwhelming wins.
We lost to 4 top teams imo in Melbourne, bulldogs, port and tigers.
The other losses were to teams we should be beating imo if we had improved as we all expected but we failed all those challenges.

Hope your right about us storming home but it’s more wishful thinking then reading our formline so far.
A midfield consisting of Cripps who looks about as unfit as any midfielder I’ve ever seen, a 50 game star In Walsh and then a cooked tagger in Ed so good luck trying to compete with anyone with any confidence when thats your midfield. And remind me all the stars we have waiting on the injury front to help fill those massive holes.  We are miles off it.

Time to take off the blue glasses mate.

I tend to agree

There is no spark. There’s no hunger to play to the death. We start well but then when things don’t go our way - we kick too many behinds or the oppo get a run on, it almost seems like you can see them say this is too hard and then just play it out and mid speed.

It’s bloody annoying to watch.

We will not win most of our next games, in fact I think we’ll capitulate badly because there’s really now nothing left to play for.  Those on contracts are on good $ and not up for renewal and those that are up for renewal well we’re still waiting on. How many times have I heard over the last 6-8 weeks that Cripps is as good as a done deal. Where’s the Farging signed contract then? Where’s McKays? He’s leadinf the Coleman and we’re still farting around.

This team just craps me. I used to love footy and would watch most games every weekend, couldn’t get enough of it and other games mattered because they’d matter to our chances and our place on the ladder.  But since they bought in Malthouse And barring that final against Richmond, it’s just been misery. My partner and I rarely watch other games now, our interest has gone snd we know sure as anything that when our season is in our hands, We frigging do nothing about it. Again.

Spare me the stuff about injuries too and let’s be fair dinkum.

Cripps and Doch have gone backwards
Murph should be retired
Curnow is hanging on
Setters fail. O’Brien gone, Dow Probably also.
SPS seems gone

Walsh Harry weiters are literally our only shining lights, maybe Saad and TDK. That’s it. Oh and Eddie but he’s just about finished too in reality. How depressing.

How many times do i need to talk about your inability to comprehend English before you actually learn to read what i write?
That was the collingwood game you speak of.

Keep up mate.

True to form you avoid answering, find a loophole in someones post that dares to question you and then when you have no comeback you get personal. I did try very hard not to reply to you but your week to week rolling BS know it all just got the better of me.

I won’t do it again. 🤐

@shawny ... nicely summed up

I tend to agree

There is no spark. There’s no hunger to play to the death. We start well but then when things don’t go our way - we kick too many behinds or the oppo get a run on, it almost seems like you can see them say this is too hard and then just play it out and mid speed.

It’s bloody annoying to watch.

We will not win most of our next games, in fact I think we’ll capitulate badly because there’s really now nothing left to play for.  Those on contracts are on good $ and not up for renewal and those that are up for renewal well we’re still waiting on. How many times have I heard over the last 6-8 weeks that Cripps is as good as a done deal. Where’s the Farging signed contract then? Where’s McKays? He’s leadinf the Coleman and we’re still farting around.

This team just craps me. I used to love footy and would watch most games every weekend, couldn’t get enough of it and other games mattered because they’d matter to our chances and our place on the ladder.  But since they bought in Malthouse And barring that final against Richmond, it’s just been misery. My partner and I rarely watch other games now, our interest has gone snd we know sure as anything that when our season is in our hands, We frigging do nothing about it. Again.

Spare me the stuff about injuries too and let’s be fair dinkum.

Cripps and Doch have gone backwards
Murph should be retired
Curnow is hanging on
Setters fail. O’Brien gone, Dow Probably also.
SPS seems gone

Walsh Harry weiters are literally our only shining lights, maybe Saad and TDK. That’s it. Oh and Eddie but he’s just about finished too in reality. How depressing.

Your last paragraph is bloody depressing but worse
its brutally honest. Apart from who you mentioned the rest have question marks over them and can’t be relied upon to take us where we thought the rebuild would.
 Htf after 6 years in a rebuild we only manage to add 1 real midfielder to the group we had 6 years ago is beyond comprehension. Whether we blame drafting stuff ups, lack of being able to develop, lack of getting any real ready made true bonifide mids in trade period I dunno. Still 1 midfielder in 6 years is a joke and imo the joint should be overhauled again from top to bottom
unless there is a clear explanation for that.

True to form you avoid answering, find a loophole in someones post that dares to question you and then when you have no comeback you get personal. I did try very hard not to reply to you but your week to week rolling BS know it all just got the better of me.

I won’t do it again. 🤐

Your post had 1 question mark, thus 1 question.
I highlighted that, and answered it.

What do you think i am trying to avoid? Teaching you english? Yes, but here we are....

Again, your comprehension skills need some work.

You wanna ask a question of me, use one of those curly things with a little circle at the bottom of it.

Your last paragraph is bloody depressing but worse
its brutally honest. Apart from who you mentioned the rest have question marks over them and can’t be relied upon to take us where we thought the rebuild would.
 Htf after 6 years in a rebuild we only manage to add 1 real midfielder to the group we had 6 years ago is beyond comprehension. Whether we blame drafting stuff ups, lack of being able to develop, lack of getting any real ready made true bonifide mids in trade period I dunno. Still 1 midfielder in 6 years is a joke and imo the joint should be overhauled again from top to bottom
unless there is a clear explanation for that.

It would have to be a reflection of the fact that the people running our club are just not in touch with the true reality of our situation and are not capable of ever becoming so. As we all know, that will always get you in the end. Until that changes we will continue to flounder, or rearrange deck chairs or whatever it is we’re doing.

I was on the Teague Train - no longer.

Sure, his assistants on the whole are sub par.

But nothing has changed in recent weeks - terrible MC selections....poor match days moves (or none of note).

Let's be frank - half of out blokes look out of gas before half time!

The Club needs to bring some fresh blood (experienced) into the coaching ranks yesterday.

So much for the Woosha mentoring - we're playing worse now than for several years.

Something needs to give - if that's Teague I can live with it frankly.

Yesterday was ANOTHER totally unacceptable effort - by the MC before  the game and both players and coaching during the game.

We played a team, who are useless away from home, missing 6+ of their best (Kelly, Shuey, Allen, Guv, Kennedy, Veneables, Brander, Ah Chee etc) - and folded.

Without a whimper. Again.

There's nothing a coach can do if your players can't execute basic skills. This has been an issue through several coaches. They can execute perfectly well at training, but instability, discontinuity and a losing culture have created headspace issues on game day that won't be overcome easily. Changing coaches won't make any difference.

I would love to know our results in last quarters this year especially in the last month.
As fly mentioned we look out of tickets well before the end of games and put captain is a huge concern. He’s unable to compete for any sort of prolonged period and spends a lot of time gasping for air even early in the contest and we are paying on the scoreboard for it as the opposition just run off him to easy. I know he’s not quick but I’m talking about even jogging wise the guy looks like he is labouring. Not a good look to have your captain looking like this.
Somethings up on that front.

I would love to know our results in last quarters this year especially in the last month.
As fly mentioned we look out of tickets well before the end of games........................

I think it's a headspace issue, the plight of the downtrodden.

We need someone with some Peaky Blinders type brutality to lift us out of the gutter, playing nice doesn't help in the AFL it just leaves you the victim of bastards!

Whatever it is that is wrong runs a lot deeper than just the coach. Sacking Teague would not fix the problem IMO and may even ingrain the real issues even deeper.

We've a generation of AFL industry working against us, all the key people in the industry now in their 40s, 50s and 60s think their own failed careers are all due to our TPP violations. Fans can write this off as trivial, but it alters every aspect of our club's operation, we are painted poorly for potential sponsors, recruits(trade and draft), bureaucracy and the general public. It affects the broadcast of our games, the commentary in the media and the tone of social media.

You would have noticed Flubbo has taken particular interest in us at the moment, kicking the downtrodden, front pages pushing his own beloveds off the ticker tape.

Do you think that's coincidence when we are in the process of trying to secure signatures or attract trade targets, some of them his own club might have some interest in?

It's absolutely naivety to think this hasn't a genuine effect on and off the field!

There's nothing a coach can do if your players can't execute basic skills. This has been an issue through several coaches. They can execute perfectly well at training, but instability, discontinuity and a losing culture have created headspace issues on game day that won't be overcome easily. Changing coaches won't make any difference.

BANG!
What also has been an issue through several coaches is on field leadership. Cripps and Doc have been troubled with their own personal issues and have appeared to struggle with the burden of captaincy.

We've a generation of AFL industry working against us, all the key people in the industry now in their 40s, 50s and 60s think their own failed careers are all due to our TPP ...

I agree that the salary cap punishment has been more impactful and longer lasting than most people realise. I would have thought one generation (i.e. roughly 20 years) would usually be enough to purge all residual baggage and start afresh but it’s a good point you make - football does not follow the same natural cycles and rhythms as some other streams of life.
Having said that, we haven’t really helped ourselves and I don’t look kindly upon those who always play the “victim” card.

The whole club has that “woe is us” mentality which is only magnified when the media hacks join in with their patronizing tone. How often during the telecast yesterday did BT ask his fellow commentator, “For how much longer are Carlton supporters going to accept these type of losses?”?
Oh I don’t know Brian - for another 6 years, 3 months and 3 weeks. WTF?!

Been reading the usual threats from people not renewing memberships. Can’t say I blame them. I’ll be reconsidering but it’s more due to my age and the pandemic. Can’t believe we have record membership numbers. If only our football operations/fitness/recruiting/coaching departments could attract the same caliber of personnel as the marketing department!

I think the result in this game says it all, weakest WC team that I can recall that any other team in the league would have beaten. Even north. We need to recruit hardness as well as skill. We were weak and insipid with no killer instinct. No point bagging our high priced recruits they were the offered money and took it but they were the only ones coming no point talking about getting high profile midfielders they aren’t coming to us
Have a look at the past failures to lure smith shiels etc we are 10 years away from premiership
Teague is an easy target but liddle is a snake oil salesman selling us hope that wasn’t real
Give Murphy his 300 he ain’t the worst player out there but we have recruited nice need a couple of Mitch Robinson ugly win the hard ball tough types that make youngsters walk taller oh that’s right we traded him because he backed up a mate in a fight.
Nobody fears playing us because they know the can win with any team they put in and from any position unless they are rebuilding

BANG!
What also has been an issue through several coaches is on field leadership. Cripps and Doc have been troubled with their own personal issues and have appeared to struggle with the burden of captaincy.

I don't think we've had strong leadership since Kernahan...and that tells a story.
( I'm also a bit of the opinion we might not have a united playing group since that time...but that's just a suspicion.)

I was on the Teague Train - no longer.

Sure, his assistants on the whole are sub par.

But nothing has changed in recent weeks - terrible MC selections....poor match days moves (or none of note).

Let's be frank - half of out blokes look out of gas before half time!

The Club needs to bring some fresh blood (experienced) into the coaching ranks yesterday.

So much for the Woosha mentoring - we're playing worse now than for several years.

Something needs to give - if that's Teague I can live with it frankly.

Yesterday was ANOTHER totally unacceptable effort - by the MC before  the game and both players and coaching during the game.

We played a team, who are useless away from home, missing 6+ of their best (Kelly, Shuey, Allen, Guv, Kennedy, Veneables, Brander, Ah Chee etc) - and folded.

Without a whimper. Again.

Couldn't agree more.

In the words of the prophet ( ;D ), Donna Summer, Enough Is Enough.

I said it a few weeks back and I'll say it again, we've been conned, led down the garden path... over promised, under delivered.

Ground hog day, same old same old, rinse and repeat, keep doing what you've always done and you'll keep getting what you've always got - we've heard them all.

I wonder if when we threw out the 'Old Carlton' we didn't throw out the baby with the bath water. There were some aspects of the 'Old Carlton' that had a lot to do with excellence, initiative, and sustained ruthlessness at all levels - and the leaders of the club we chose/employed/recruited, exemplified those imperatives for success. The 'new Carlton' is nice, soft, co-operative, pretty to watch - at times, and, well... beige. All opposition clubs and supporters know that you only need to bring heat, and the BlueBaggers will melt.

Even as we now talk about the importance of dead obvious change in the coaching ranks, too many are choosing moderation, probably fearing any sweeping change would be too much like the 'Old Carlton'. Well, FFS, we do need a bit of 'Old Carlton' right now, some ruthlessness, some demanding of getting the best and most of all, putting an end to this soft impersonation, this soulless impersonation of our club.

So many of us can see the litany of errors re: maintaining failed assistants for YEARS, an MC that seems to be fighting with itself, a Mr Lloyd who assured us during the open communication with supporters that the 'above the shoulders' stuff was being well handled at the club (I shout, bullshizen... these players are NOT united, we play as individuals, there is NO culture of TEAM come match day and we are totally reactionary). We clearly appear to have NO brand, NO identity... what do we stand for?

Against the tide I would suggest there is nothing wrong with our fitness... these blokes only appear to be out of breath. When you're losing often, have a game plan designed for 'who the fck knows,' but not for this group... then players will seem exhausted because, mentally, they are. The same group, if they were winning, would be running out games brilliantly. Failure always looks slow, but success on the field brings a flood of 'good brain chemicals' into the body.

The Board would be and should be real damn nervous because a takeover would be pretty easy right now by any group with genuine nous and not afraid to make important change... yes, again with the change, but I suggest we DID throw out the baby with the bathwater with our last major 'rebuild'... seems we built a house of cards.

I don't think we've had strong leadership since Kernahan...and that tells a story.
( I'm also a bit of the opinion we might not have a united playing group since that time...but that's just a suspicion.)

And I wonder what cause division? If you think back to the Judd comments about all he heard was talk about contracts when he first arrived, I wonder if that is still going on. I wonder if players look at the money a Williams or a Saad is on and think its unfair or something like that. That coupled with players supposedly not happy about being played in different positions to what they'd like or are used to. Something doesn't appear right.

Start at the defense..... We have defenders who won't, can't anymore and are no good at defending. Ed Curnow was sent down back to plug holes.
Stocker ended up on Ryan and it was an epic fail. Saad won't play hard defense, Docherty has lost his mojo down there and Williams is a failed midfield applicant who has been forced down back to justify his big pay packet.
Ryan should have had a more senior defender on him and not a kid... We can't play three small mid size defenders who want to chase the ball and not defend.
Teague has to fix the defense or he will lose his job eventually.

The playing value of Eddie Betts has been questioned a bit especially earlier in the season.
He's playing some pretty good football at the moment.
He is one whose value is good, and place in the side is more than merited.

But I've also noticed that at breaks in play (after goals etc) he's very animated with the other players, talking, explaining, instructing...whatever it is, it's like having an assistant coach on the field.

Whether we realise it or not, Betts is future coaching material.  Far flung?   Nope.  He has been exceptional in that regard @Lods

Sharp, clever and it riles me in the extreme when some people with no clue don't see that on field contribution.

Betts worth is primarily off the field, on field his intermittent great games are a bonus, but they might not help us win much.

Owies, Fisher, Fogarty, Williams, Martin, will all be better players because of Betts.

It's those players becoming better, delivering options inside F50, that will contribute to wins, not a sole reliance on Betts.

The point I was making is that there were some duckheads that didn't even want him back !!.

The point I was making is that there were some duckheads that didn't even want him back !!.

His value on and off the field is as clear as the nose on your face, its nonsense to think other wise. Ironically, we need a cool headed veteren in the back line at the minute. I never thought that would be the case given how the defence performed before this year.

The point I was making is that there were some duckheads that didn't even want him back !!.

I think some of us warned he wasn't going to be a win/loss panacea, and here we are 14th after 12 rounds, regardless of Betts good games.

Betts is not what we need on field, he can help us win by helping those around him, but if he's trying to kick bags of goals to win it off his own boot it gives us nothing.

I think it's a headspace issue, the plight of the downtrodden. It seems so. A lot of posters have mentioned this in the past and it fits what we are seeing. I remember been one of the first clubs to have a head space guy working at the club. Rudy Webster or something like that.

We need someone with some Peaky Blinders type brutality to lift us out of the gutter, playing nice doesn't help in the AFL it just leaves you the victim of bastards! I nominate Krudd! He's the most positive on this site

Eddie was a marketing tool and small forward coach plus incentive for Martin and Williams to join us and play with a mentor.
Goal kicking wise he probably hasn't been as good as a freebie like Matthew Wright but it's the other stuff I mentioned that got him his contract IMHO.

The playing value of Eddie Betts has been questioned a bit especially earlier in the season.
He's playing some pretty good football at the moment.
He is one whose value is good, and place in the side is more than merited.

But I've also noticed that at breaks in play (after goals etc) he's very animated with the other players, talking, explaining, instructing...whatever it is, it's like having an assistant coach on the field.

Have to agree with this. He makes something from nothing and is deadly in the pockets. Some straight kicking earlier in the year and he have a few more goals, currently second behind Harry with 17:13.

He could go on next year if he keeps up the current form he is in.

Start at the defense..... We have defenders who won't, can't anymore and are no good at defending. Ed Curnow was sent down back to plug holes.
Stocker ended up on Ryan and it was an epic fail. Saad won't play hard defense, Docherty has lost his mojo down there and Williams is a failed midfield applicant who has been forced down back to justify his big pay packet.
Ryan should have had a more senior defender on him and not a kid... We can't play three small mid size defenders who want to chase the ball and not defend.
Teague has to fix the defense or he will lose his job eventually.

Wrong match up. Love Stocker he throws himself at the ball, no fear and does not take a backward step. Saw him do it a couple of times yesterday. This is the player we need in the midfield not the back pocket on a guy who can jump on Gawn's head from side on. To mobile and experienced for a guy who has only 10 games of AFL experience.

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/06/07/the-aspects-of-carltons-loss-that-confused-david-king/

Kingy, maaaaaate. Welcome aboard. 10 years too late, but anyway....................

Wrong match up. Love Stocker he throws himself at the ball, no fear and does not take a backward step. Saw him do it a couple of times yesterday. This is the player we need in the midfield not the back pocket on a guy who can jump on Gawn's head from side on. To mobile and experienced for a guy who has only 10 games of AFL experience.

Why can you and I see that but the coaches can’t.

Poor stocker has been thrown to the wolves with the players he has manned this year. Hard to mount a case we are trying to win for the now when we play a bloke with 10 games to his name on the comps best and most dangerous forwards week week out.
He has done very well imo and is one positive for me and shows more then guys we have waited 5 years for. All in under a dozen games. This kid looks to have what it takes and will be a long term player imo.

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/06/07/the-aspects-of-carltons-loss-that-confused-david-king/

Kingy, maaaaaate. Welcome aboard. 10 years too late, but anyway....................

As far as red time goals we've been doing that since the decade before last.

It's nice to know we have alot of defenders who don't like to defend...lol. No wonder they chose Carlton.

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/06/07/the-aspects-of-carltons-loss-that-confused-david-king/

Kingy, maaaaaate. Welcome aboard. 10 years too late, but anyway....................

I commented in the in game if we had done any research on our opponents as it appeared to me we hadn't. In a depleted side, I would have thought the main ones we had to plan for and negate (as much as possible) were Nic Nat, Darling, Gaff, Sheed and Ryan. Other than Darling, we seemed clueless with the others and that comes down to the coaching team. King backs that up.

I actually like Teague's post match press conferences. I like the lack of histrionics, his openness and his identification of problems. I think that by coaching from the sidelines against WCE he finally got to see close up the fundamental lack of passion our players play with. Mark Maclure identified the problem earlier in the year in that we don't play as a team. He also identified that the solution has to be player driven. We have been turning over Coaches too easily and every time a new coach comes in they bring in a new game plan which has been non-productive. I think we need to stick with Teague and make the players responsible.
I also disagree that our drafting and trading has been sub-par. I have said before and I will say it again, I think we have a very good list. While much was made of the Eagle's outs on the weekend, it should be remembered we have been playing without 4, 5,, 6 & 7 of our best players all year. On Sunday we were without Fogarty, Plowman, Marchbank, McGovern, Charlie, & Cuningham and we lost McKay in the first quarter. Individual effort and ability is keeping us close against the good sides.
We are not frenetic around the contest or in the midfield. While commentators keep pointing to our defence as the problem, too often the ball waltzes through our midfield very little pressure and this leaves our defence exposed. In our forward 50 we often try to hard but they try on an individual level and not on a team basis. Our kicking and our decision making coming out of defence is poor, players don't take on the responsibility to goals. I understand the theory of the extra pass but in the first quarter Fisher was on his left foot in space thirty meters out yet he passed off to Murphy I think who then kicked on his right under more pressure and didn't make the distance. Harry barely scored a point 35 meters out., Setterfield didn't even make the distance 30 meters out. Newnes, who is a stong kick, decided on a low percentage pass rather than kicking from 45 meters out, Jack keeps missing them. Pittonet missed two chances, DeKonning one and there were a number of other opportunities missed. I think that is just not important enough to the players.
The administration has cleaned up the debt, is building a state of the art training facility and has engaged with the supporter base to drive up Membership, while the recruiters have built a decent list. In a recent Club survey I was asked what would improve my in game enjoyment. My answer was for the Team to win more games. It is really up to the players.

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/06/07/the-aspects-of-carltons-loss-that-confused-david-king/

Kingy, maaaaaate. Welcome aboard. 10 years too late, but anyway....................

Geez he has trotted out some cliches there.   Saad doesnt want to defend - hes actually been pretty good (just keep listening to what Cheats supporters tell you Kingy, and dont actually watch the game).  Yeah, they didnt want him deep in a back pocket - but if they had done this, then everyone would have stitched them up - "why dont you free up Saad".   Williams was OK and used it pretty well, as well as defending when he needed to.   Stocker got done on the day, and maybe they should have moved him - but do you sacrifice the drive from half back (which we are always told is so important) that Saad and Williams provide

Everyone acknowledges that when the footy comes in so easily, there is not much the backline can do.  This is the real issue - the midfield not running both ways.  We all know that on here. As we actually watch

King just rolling out some cheap rhetoric (most of which has been fed to him by oppo supporters)... thouhgt he was slightly better than that (only just slightly)

As far as red time goals we've been doing that since the decade before last.

It's nice to know we have alot of defenders who don't like to defend...lol. No wonder they chose Carlton.

Ye! We have done this for years! Drives me batcrap crazy!

Weiters is a very smart guy - give him the responsibility of shutting down the oppo forward line. Please for the love of god, let’s just shut down oppo In the last 5 mins of every quarter.

Oh missed out stocker on a shiny lights comment earlier - like the kid.

Why can you and I see that but the coaches can’t.

Poor stocker has been thrown to the wolves with the players he has manned this year. Hard to mount a case we are trying to win for the now when we play a bloke with 10 games to his name on the comps best and most dangerous forwards week week out.
He has done very well imo and is one positive for me and shows more then guys we have waited 5 years for. All in under a dozen games. This kid looks to have what it takes and will be a long term player imo.

For what its worth, Teague said they moved Newman onto Ryan but unfortunately knocked himself out. Not sure when the move was made though.

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/06/07/the-aspects-of-carltons-loss-that-confused-david-king/

Kingy, maaaaaate. Welcome aboard. 10 years too late, but anyway....................

I've been saying the HBF thing for weeks.

For what its worth, Teague said they moved Newman onto Ryan but unfortunately knocked himself out. Not sure when the move was made though.

Newman can't defend either.

Geez he has trotted out some cliches there.   Saad doesnt want to defend - hes actually been pretty good (just keep listening to what Cheats supporters tell you Kingy, and dont actually watch the game).  Yeah, they didnt want him deep in a back pocket - but if they had done this, then everyone would have stitched them up - "why dont you free up Saad".   Williams was OK and used it pretty well, as well as defending when he needed to.   Stocker got done on the day, and maybe they should have moved him - but do you sacrifice the drive from half back (which we are always told is so important) that Saad and Williams provide

Everyone acknowledges that when the footy comes in so easily, there is not much the backline can do.  This is the real issue - the midfield not running both ways.  We all know that on here. As we actually watch

King just rolling out some cheap rhetoric (most of which has been fed to him by oppo supporters)... thouhgt he was slightly better than that (only just slightly)

I've been saying the HBF thing for weeks.

Ladies and gents, forget all that. The mere fact that he is talking about going deeper than just the coach is borderline miraculous. I therefore consider my constant and tireless campaigning on this issue to be a success, and if this sort of talk spreads further than just King, I may be out of a job lol.

I would have thought the main ones we had to plan for and negate (as much as possible) were Nic Nat, Darling, Gaff, Sheed and Ryan.

FMD, it was that easy we should have won! :o

Geez he has trotted out some cliches there.   Saad doesnt want to defend - hes actually been pretty good (just keep listening to what Cheats supporters tell you Kingy, and dont actually watch the game).  Yeah, they didnt want him deep in a back pocket - but if they had done this, then everyone would have stitched them up - "why dont you free up Saad".   Williams was OK and used it pretty well, as well as defending when he needed to.   Stocker got done on the day, and maybe they should have moved him - but do you sacrifice the drive from half back (which we are always told is so important) that Saad and Williams provide

Everyone acknowledges that when the footy comes in so easily, there is not much the backline can do.  This is the real issue - the midfield not running both ways.  We all know that on here. As we actually watch

King just rolling out some cheap rhetoric (most of which has been fed to him by oppo supporters)... thouhgt he was slightly better than that (only just slightly)

Knock at Essendon on Saad was he didnt want to play a negative role and wanted to pick and choose who he played on.....sorry not on. You cant have three defenders who ant to kick chase and have the easy rebound role, two of them will have to find other roles as we need a couple of Andy Mckays who want to play close and hard.
We have too many players who want to play bruise free footy....

Betts worth is primarily off the field, on field his intermittent great games are a bonus, but they might not help us win much.

Owies, Fisher, Fogarty, Williams, Martin, will all be better players because of Betts.

It's those players becoming better, delivering options inside F50, that will contribute to wins, not a sole reliance on Betts.

I agree LP, Betts has been a sucessful economically sound recruit. I'll also admit I'm a big fan.

What Eddie offers additional to straight up on/off field teaching/modelling, is creativity - enjoyment in the game.

Your reference to improving options delivering i50 is key IMO. When we execute this well (What DT calls our exciting game style), we look confident and competitive. Eddie plays a big role orchestrating the fwd troops. It's of little use though when our mids/hb are unable to win the ball and deliver it effectively. Both SYSTEMS need a degree of synergy. Unfortunately we're not doing this enough.

This leads to our next weakness, which seems to have increased this year. Our defense!

What happened to the strides we took defending? f=$ we often lay less tackles than our AFLW girls in a much shorter game.

I commented in the in game if we had done any research on our opponents as it appeared to me we hadn't. In a depleted side, I would have thought the main ones we had to plan for and negate (as much as possible) were Nic Nat, Darling, Gaff, Sheed and Ryan. Other than Darling, we seemed clueless to with the others and that comes down to the coaching team. King backs that up.

Presumably that coaching fiasco was with the "benefit" of consulting with Worsfold😳

FMD, it was that easy we should have won! :o

Who were the most influential players on the ground?

https://youtu.be/6T8fmfqNcu0

This First Crack commentary sums up what many of us are saying, and feeling so frustrated about 😵

Who were the most influential players on the ground?

Scouting and match day tactics have been abysmal for years....stoppage planning was non existant.
Clean out the Assistants and get Teague specialist help in those areas and thats not Worsfold who had NFI when he coached Essendon.

Time for a change! That's about as bad as it gets today. We were favourites and could've ended up just outside the 8 with a better % than most of the teams around us but we choked again.

We don't have one small/medium lock down defender than can actually go to an opponent and try and negate him....instead a plethora of half backs who are good at running off and delivering. I felt sorry for Stocker on Ryan....he got taught a lesson but Ryan has embarrassed opponents before and will do it again. Simply, we didn't have another option. Hate to say it but I reckon we missed Plowman again.

Right now, Owies is the most reliable set shot for goal in the team.....a bloke who's played half a dozen or so games. Not one other bloke is more than a 50% chance at the moment.

I love the way Cottrell goes about it but his skills aren't up to it at the moment and he turned it over way too many times.

Said it right back in about round 2 or 3....Docherty not half the player he was. He used to be so composed with the footy but now everything is just a hack panic disposal.

That was one of the worst games I've seen Murphy play and he is surely just being nursed to the 300 mark at which point he'll be told he's not playing again.

Setterfield is hopeless and just another high draft pick bloke we've brought in that hasn't fired a shot.

And who's decision was it to play Ed off a half back flank? Their forward line was at about half strength and we put one of our most consistent midfielders back there? His best role is and always has been as a run with mid who can also find his own ball.

I'd defy anyone to say we're a better team now than we were two years ago when Teague took over.

Look back about 5 or 6 years ago and we were neck and neck with Brisbane and fighting for the wooden spoon and arguing over priority picks. We've had similar high draft picks and, like us, they've gone and got blokes in from other clubs.....McCarthy, Neale, Cameron, Daniher, Adams and I'm sure there's a few more. We've done the same......McGovern, Betts, Martin, Saad, Williams....not to mention blokes from GWS who were high draft picks themselves.....Setterfield, Kennedy, Marchbank. They're now a top 4 team and we're still in the bottom 4.

Even Adelaide who finished rock bottom last year and struggled to even win a game, look better than us at the moment and way more competitive.

There wouldn't be a team in the competition that would fear us anymore. Opposition teams would know full well that once we lose possession of the ball we're hopeless. Said it last week after the Sydney game and same thing happened yesterday....the SCG is a tiny ground and 3 good drop punts from full back and you're up the other end shooting for goal.....so how is it possible for both Sydney and WCE to move the ball with seemingly 25 players out there and no opponent and find space all day once we lost the footy?

We can't even do the basics properly....kick to find an opponent....or tackle properly....or even kick a set shot goal from 30m out.

I've been a supporter for 40 years since my favourite Perth player Peter Bosustow moved over to Carlton....but I won't be renewing my membership next year.

There isn't one bloke playing in the VFL at the moment that I read about that's knocking the door down and demanding a game.

Probably only a couple of positives I could take from that sh#t show yesterday.....Fisher looked really good, especially early, but seemed to run out of legs. And Dow wasn't overly impressive but found the ball a bit and earned another crack I think.

Time for a change! That's about as bad as it gets today.

As bad as it gets??

Give me a spell.

I posted elsewhere in Teagues 39 games as coach, he's lost by 30 or more points......twice.....and one of them was 31 points.
In Boltons last 39 games as coach, he lost by more than 30 points.......18 times. Including by over 100 points 3 times.

As bad as it gets......short memories by way too many on here.

As bad as it gets......short memories by way too many on here.

Yes, the reactions are over the top bizarre at the moment.

I understand the frustrations, but I can't see any logic in the suggested remedy as it's coming across as a burn the house down approach!

Too many seem to be revelling in the Flubbo and Jab Snr smugness, it makes me very uncomfortable as a Carlton fan that many of my compatriots might be so fickle and fans and so susceptible to external suggestions.

Oddly, when we are on I think we are now far far better to watch than we have been for many years. The 4-Qtr problem remains, but get the balance right and we'll win the close ones, and be 8 from 4 instead of 4 from 8.

For several years we couldn't score, we blamed the players, we blamed the coach. The players are still there and can now score, regardless of the kicking accuracy we generate shots that we couldn't previous and the players are fundamentally the same crew.

Yes, the reactions are over the top bizarre at the moment.

I understand the frustrations, but I can't see any logic in the suggested remedy as it's coming across as a burn the house down approach!

Too many seem to be revelling in the Flubbo and Jab Snr smugness, it makes me very uncomfortable as a Carlton fan that many of my compatriots might be so fickle and fans and so susceptible to external suggestions.

Oddly, when we are on I think we are now far far better to watch than we have been for many years. The 4-Qtr problem remains, but get the balance right and we'll win the close ones, and be 8 from 4 instead of 4 from 8.

For several years we couldn't score, we blamed the players, we blamed the coach. The players are still there and can now score, regardless of the kicking accuracy we generate shots that we couldn't previous and the players are fundamentally the same crew.

Agree.

People are being so black and white they should go follow the pies.

People are basically complaining that we are not finals bound
People fail to realise that while that is true, we are no longer on the bottom of the ladder.

Improvement has been obvious. Yes, its slower than we all want, but the 'logic' of nuking the place to start again hasn't worked the last 6 times, but its SURE to work this time....its laughable.
If for no other reason than to try something different for the first time in 20 years, lets stick with the coach and give him what he needs....players, assistants....whatever.

The playing value of Eddie Betts has been questioned a bit especially earlier in the season.
He's playing some pretty good football at the moment.
He is one whose value is good, and place in the side is more than merited.

But I've also noticed that at breaks in play (after goals etc) he's very animated with the other players, talking, explaining, instructing...whatever it is, it's like having an assistant coach on the field.

We were behind the goals at the game yesterday and it was obvious how well Betts reads the game and how he directs those around him.

For all the issues we are close in every game near enough. Wouldn't actually take that much to change things on the scoreboard if we wanted to badly enough.

Maybe we've truly reached the proverbial line in the sand stage.... And it can only go two ways from here.   Maybe there will now  be the want and  impetus to get our sh1t (finally)  together.

Bolton had the first 4 years of the reset. Teague has had years 5 and 6.

Yep
I understand the disappointment in not meeting our own personal expectations.
There is a danger in acting too soon... but there also comes a point when you can leave things too long.
(How long is a piece of string? ::) )
Picking that point is really difficult...and whichever way you go you're going to cop criticism.

It might be a good idea to stay away from the football shows this week.
We'll be 'chum' in the water for the sharks.

Bolton had the first 4 years of the reset. Teague has had years 5 and 6.

Personally, sacking Bolton declared the reset a failure, and signalled a new 5 year count.  We probably went 2 years too early on Bolton, but it wasnt working. 

Here we go....

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/carlton-to-launch-external-review-of-football-department-20210607-p57yul.html?fbclid=IwAR3OPdbJRSjBJx_2-x6Gv8ioOLtTW20fDwua2ASLMlgDXLqqz2W-SUwNvhM

Yep...thats the we are done for 2021 call and lets order the timber for the gallows and find ourselves a scape goat.

delete

I've made it a separate thread...If Sam Maclure is correct (yet to be confirmed) it may generate a bit of discussion.

Yep...thats the we are done for 2021 call and lets order the timber for the gallows and find ourselves a scape goat.

I literally said only a few hours ago that this was my biggest fear.
We start jumping at shadows and change tact for the rest of the year signalling defeat.

We can still finish 9th without too much trouble, technically 8th or higher mathematically, so why are we doing this now?

Agree.

People are being so black and white they should go follow the pies.

People are basically complaining that we are not finals bound
People fail to realise that while that is true, we are no longer on the bottom of the ladder.

Improvement has been obvious. Yes, its slower than we all want, but the 'logic' of nuking the place to start again hasn't worked the last 6 times, but its SURE to work this time....its laughable.
If for no other reason than to try something different for the first time in 20 years, lets stick with the coach and give him what he needs....players, assistants....whatever.

Read post 148 by WASurfer and tell me where he is wrong.

Where you accuse people of seeing black and white I believe the bulk of what they are seeing is grey and an acceptance that our rebuild has been a failure.

You take comfort from the fact that we are not on the bottom of the ladder.  But where we are now and where we are heading is surely cold comfort for where we are in this rebuild.

You take comfort from the fact that under Teague our losses are not as bad as they used to be.  Big deal.  We are still losing.

With my view on our loss on Sunday you would no doubt place me with the black and white brigade.

I do not know the Eagles players well.  From the way they played it was not possible to single out their five newcomers.  They all played as a cohesive unit to a set plan and carried it out well enough to embarrass us.

Watching our response to them soon showed a side seemingly unwilling or unable to follow a game plan - if indeed we have one - and crushing the hopes of supporters.

Yes, after 6 six years it is reasonable to expect we should be knocking on the doors of the 8.  It is being done by sides who were below us while we are now bumbling along trying to work out what has gone wrong. 

Is it the coach and/or coaching staff?  Is it the Board?  Is it poor recruitment? Is it poor development of players? Etc, etc.

While all the questions are being asked with no easy answers, we will remain a shambles.

Read post 148 by WASurfer and tell me where he is wrong.

Where you accuse people of seeing black and white I believe the bulk of what they are seeing is grey and an acceptance that our rebuild has been a failure.

You take comfort from the fact that we are not on the bottom of the ladder.  But where we are now and where we are heading is surely cold comfort for where we are in this rebuild.

You take comfort from the fact that under Teague our losses are not as bad as they used to be.  Big deal.  We are still losing.

With my view on our loss on Sunday you would no doubt place me with the black and white brigade.

I do not know the Eagles players well.  From the way they played it was not possible to single out their five newcomers.  They all played as a cohesive unit to a set plan and carried it out well enough to embarrass us.

Watching our response to them soon showed a side seemingly unwilling or unable to follow a game plan - if indeed we have one - and crushing the hopes of supporters.

Yes, after 6 six years it is reasonable to expect we should be knocking on the doors of the 8.  It is being done by sides who were below us while we are now bumbling along trying to work out what has gone wrong. 

Is it the coach and/or coaching staff?  Is it the Board?  Is it poor recruitment? Is it poor development of players? Etc, etc.

While all the questions are being asked with no easy answers, we will remain a shambles.

I replied to his post directly after that. His very first sentence is over the top nonsense. I'm not bothering with the rest.

I have done countless analysis of our football club and where we are now vs where we were with a prediction of where we might get too. Read around.

Comparisons to Melbourne a few years ago.
Comparisons to Saints and Bombers earlier this year....and as recently as yesterday!
Read here for some recent comparisons....
https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=5377.0

I've said repeatedly the road to success is a rollercoaster with plenty of ups and downs. Don't think that every up means thats our new base and every down is our current level. We are not as bad as people say.

The reason i keep pointing out that we don't get flogged and that we are winning more than we used to is not because i am happy with where we are, its because we are better than where we were. Believe it or not, we continue to rise as a team.
Some people see it as simple wins and losses......but thats very naive. The link above shows why, specifically with Bombers.

I brought up % as a measure of success. People scoff at it, but thats because they don't actually take time to think about what that means.
Our % is currently 92.4%, that is unheard of for a team that is 4-8 for starters. But looking at our last 2 decades, our best football was played under Ratten and our first season under Malthouse where we made finals from 9th.
Excluding that 6 year period, our next best % (from the other 14 years) was last year where we ended up with 94.34% That is about the same as Rattens first year (2008) where we went 10-12 with 94.18%. No other years are above 90% There are 3 above 80%...one of which was Teagues first (half) season.

So what....
Our team is playing the best it has in the last 20 years (Ratten era aside) albeit without the wins coming through.
I would much prefer where we are now, than Pagans best year where we went 10-12 (2004) and had a % of just 81.66%.
That showed we were crap, but lucky.
Now we are better, but unlucky.
It is only a matter of times until it translates to wins.

As you are not happy with WASurfer's opening sentence, I invite you to commence reading his post from the paragraph beginning "Look back about 5 or 6 years ago..."

I am sure the views he expresses there would sit quite easily with the majority of contributors to this thread.

 I assume you draw comfort from the statistics of the match and believe that success, although elusive at the moment, will come in due time.

On the other hand, I rely on what I see to form my views.  During and at the end of the game I saw a group of Carlton players who had played without leadership, with little or no spirit when the game was in danger, seemingly without a game plan, and looking utterly dejected.

We have many problems with no easy fixes, and I don't see a challenge to teams in the 8 any time soon.

As you are not happy with WASurfer's opening sentence, I invite you to commence reading his post from the paragraph beginning "Look back about 5 or 6 years ago..."

I am sure the views he expresses there would sit quite easily with the majority of contributors to this thread.

 I assume you draw comfort from the statistics of the match and believe that success, although elusive at the moment, will come in due time.

On the other hand, I rely on what I see to form my views.  During and at the end of the game I saw a group of Carlton players who had played without leadership, with little or no spirit when the game was in danger, seemingly without a game plan, and looking utterly dejected.

We have many problems with no easy fixes, and I don't see a challenge to teams in the 8 any time soon.

OK, i'll play one more time.

A lot of what you describe, and what he describes is what i've talked about....a roller coaster ride.
Same goes for the players and their belief. Currently its down....way down. It won't stay down forever, 3 easier games coming up could be all thats required to restore confidence levels in the players, coach and club as a whole. We are a fickle bunch.....well most of us.

Now to the "but team xxxxxx are ahead of us now" comments. Sure, and we are ahead of Collingwood now.....and Hawthorn....and...Its all subjective and irrelevant. It makes supporters feel better (or worse depending on your inclination) to play that game. Same is done with individual players too. Ultimately it means little. You want to look at up and down form, look at the thread i posted the link at before.....go to the section on highest losing margins. All of those clubs that have gone past us....and even the ones that were well ahead of us, have had worst days than we have. Some HUGE losses there. West Coast got beaten by the cats by 97 points a few weeks ago. Remember that roller coaster?

So yes, i look at trends, statistics and past history to form my view that success is not that far away.
However, that is also in line with using my eyes to see the same thing you describe, disappointment from the players, despair even. BUT.....that doesn't last.

There will come a time when the tables turn and TBH that is half my point in all of this.

We are (supposedly) playing so bad that everybody needs to be sacked. Take the emotive alarmist nature out of it and you'll find that....
We are down on form.
We are down on confidence.
We are down on fitness.
We are down on personnel.

....and despite all of that we are in each and every match.
There have been games we have lost which we won the I50 count.
There have been games we have lost which we won the scoring shots.
There have been games we have lost which happened in the space of 5 minutes.

How can you see all that and NOT realise that with a bit of luck and a fair chunk of confidence that results will change.

Every man and his dog will tell you why we are bad.....but it doesn't translate to the scoreboard.

Look what Richmond did to essendon on Saturday.

Bit of an arm wrestle but went through the gears and destroyed them in 10 minutes.  Went from 3 points down to 7 goals up in the blink of an eye.

Whilst I didn't think we were on top against them, we did way better than that and they weren't all half injured in round 1.

While there may be more to it, the lack of initial support for Newman when he crashed head first is concerning.

Individuals.  Not a "team"

As you are not happy with WASurfer's opening sentence, I invite you to commence reading his post from the paragraph beginning "Look back about 5 or 6 years ago..."

I am sure the views he expresses there would sit quite easily with the majority of contributors to this thread.

 I assume you draw comfort from the statistics of the match and believe that success, although elusive at the moment, will come in due time.

On the other hand, I rely on what I see to form my views.  During and at the end of the game I saw a group of Carlton players who had played without leadership, with little or no spirit when the game was in danger, seemingly without a game plan, and looking utterly dejected.

We have many problems with no easy fixes, and I don't see a challenge to teams in the 8 any time soon.

Agree Macca.
We won’t go anywhere until we get 3x ready made mids to join Cripps and Walsh. Ed is cooked and the rest are VFL standard at the moment. It’s simply not a midfield capable of matching any of the teams we thought we should be jumping over
this year. Shattering when you think we waited 6 years for this.

Individuals.  Not a "team"

Yep. Been that way for too long with this club.

Love Navy.....my mind goes back a few weeks to when Liam Stocker kicked his first goal in the AFL and the response from team mates was underwhelming to say the least....surely the kid deserved better than that. Similarly, when Hartigan dropped Walsh a few weeks ago, the response was minimal. Yes, you can't just turn around and belt the bloke in retaliation but something would've been better than nothing.

It's a worrying sign that there's just not a lot of "team" going on.....and it's only what I can see on televised games.

Look what Richmond did to essendon on Saturday.

Bit of an arm wrestle but went through the gears and destroyed them in 10 minutes.  Went from 3 points down to 7 goals up in the blink of an eye.

Whilst I didn't think we were on top against them, we did way better than that and they weren't all half injured in round 1.

All half injured? Plowman is either a important player or a disaster. Like Jones his best is good but when he has an off day he is awful. By the time Charlie is ready he wouldn’t have played for 2 years plus. Can’t rely on him being the savour anymore. Look at doc its nearly impossible to miss that much footy and come back as good.
And pls don’t tell me we are missing marchbank or McGovern. I like McGovern but fact is he has given us nothing since he arrived and marchbanks body is sadly a disaster.
Every single team has injuries - we can’t keep using them as the reason we lose.

Agreed Shawny....WCE had plenty of injuries to key players on the weekend but turned up to play....we didn't.

All half injured? Plowman is either a important player or a disaster. Like Jones his best is good but when he has an off day he is awful. By the time Charlie is ready he wouldn’t have played for 2 years plus. Can’t rely on him being the savour anymore. Look at doc its nearly impossible to miss that much footy and come back as good.
And pls don’t tell me we are missing marchbank or McGovern. I like McGovern but fact is he has given us nothing since he arrived and marchbanks body is sadly a disaster.
Every single team has injuries - we can’t keep using them as the reason we lose.

was talking about Richmond putting essendon to the sword with half a team.

Our injuries are compounded.  We aren't a premiership team playing 5 guys with less than 10 games experience with a bunch of guys that are both battle hardened and experienced.  We started a rebuild 5 years ago, and weitering aside the rest aren't even close to 100 games.

Caught a glimpse of former Carlton player Adrian Hickmott behind Adam Simpson in the Eagles box after the game.
I think he looks after the Eagles defence.
Hickmott was one of my favourite players.

What you wouldn't give for a couple of Adrian Hickmott's in the side at the moment.
That's the type of attitude, courage and commitment we need to see from our group.

Caught a glimpse of former Carlton player Adrian Hickmott behind Adam Simpson in the Eagles box after the game.
I think he looks after the Eagles defence.
Hickmott was one of my favourite players.

What you wouldn't give for a couple of Adrian Hickmott's in the side at the moment.
That's the type of attitude, courage and commitment we need to see from our group.

I believe he was an applicant for a coaching job at Carlton a few seasons back and we gave him a cold shoulder, was it around the same time we overlooked his lad as a F&S?

Hickmott was an outstanding player.  Gave it everything.

We probably pissed him off when we ignored both his boys

We probably pissed him off when we ignored both his boys

We can't have it both ways though, some justified the demise of SOS on the basis of perceived nepotism.

If SOS returns tomorrow, I bet Ben doesn't!

While there may be more to it, the lack of initial support for Newman when he crashed head first is concerning.

The Kane "Fwit" Cornes piece on this was scathing (as you can imagine)....  when he first went down play was going on, so you can excuse no-one going to him).  havent gone back to look at what happened when play stopped.   youd hope there would be a reason for this, esp for a bloke who has faught back from injury...

The Kane "Fwit" Cornes piece on this was scathing (as you can imagine)....  when he first went down play was going on, so you can excuse no-one going to him).  havent gone back to look at what happened when play stopped.   youd hope there would be a reason for this, esp for a bloke who has faught back from injury...

They also showed the lack of support for Stocker first goal a few weeks ago. ALL teams get around a bloke to a man when he kicks his first, its like a right of passage. We need to fix this pronto, when you run out, all you have is the 21 other blokes around you.

Caught a glimpse of former Carlton player Adrian Hickmott behind Adam Simpson in the Eagles box after the game.
I think he looks after the Eagles defence.
Hickmott was one of my favourite players.

What you wouldn't give for a couple of Adrian Hickmott's in the side at the moment.
That's the type of attitude, courage and commitment we need to see from our group.

Quote from: Professer E on June 08, 2021, 11:16:49 am

We probably pissed him off when we ignored both his boys

That smart move may have just come back to bite us 😖

All jokes aside, we're all seeing our major weakness exposed. Until ME becomes WE, we'll languish at the bottom.

No savior or supercoach will change a thing. It's mindset. For the greater good. A clear plan/goals, adequately resourced methods/processes, and people prepared to stick to the plan/roles - for the greater good. The rewards of success perpetuate cohesion.

That smart move may have just come back to bite us 😖

All jokes aside, we're all seeing our major weakness exposed. Until ME becomes WE, we'll languish at the bottom.

No savior or supercoach will change a thing. It's mindset. For the greater good. A clear plan/goals, adequately resourced methods/processes, and people prepared to stick to the plan/roles - for the greater good. The rewards of success perpetuate cohesion.

And for Paulys benefit, that is the main message of his mate Sellars.
Team is short for sacrifice yourself for your team mate, it’s Sellars mantra when he talks of Carlton, he doesn’t think we do/are.

And for Paulys benefit, that is the main message of his mate Sellars.
Team is short for sacrifice yourself for your team mate, it’s Sellars mantra when he talks of Carlton, he doesn’t think we do/are.

You can see my comment in this thread :

https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=5554.msg337622#msg337622

You’re still missing his message Paul.

@PaulP is correct about the root cause, when your club lacks stability, when players see turmoil, their focus becomes survival not sacrifice.

This is not a recent Carlton phenomenon, it's been happening for two decades, basically since Parkin last departed.

You’re still missing his message Paul.

Its not just Sellars saying we dont have it by the way. Many are calling our players and the way they play selfish.

You’re still missing his message Paul.

That is an inevitability, since I don't listen to anything he says, unless I come across it on these forums.

So, please explain to me the true meaning behind the great man's words.

That is an inevitability, since I don't listen to anything he says, unless I come across it on these forums.

So, please explain to me the true meaning behind the great man's words.

I dont have a lot of time for Sellars in general however I think his main message and the message from other observers is for our players to:
- Stop thinking about ME and starting thinking about US
- Work for each other and demand high standards from your peers (whether you are a first gamer or a 295 gamer)
I found the comments about nice boys interesting not because of the messenger, but more from the point of view of what mindset is required to play football today. We hear of teams who play "unsociable" football (ie Geel, Rich, Haw and to some extent Syd) and many refer to our blokes as Choir Boys or the Von Trapp kids. I wonder if other teams think that of us also and take advantage of it.

Sellars continual berating and attack of the club heavily contributes to the problem, it offers no cures.

I dont have a lot of time for Sellars in general however I think his main message and the message from other observers is for our players to:
- Stop thinking about ME and starting thinking about US
- Work for each other and demand high standards from your peers (whether you are a first gamer or a 295 gamer)
I found the comments about nice boys interesting not because of the messenger, but more from the point of view of what mindset is required to play football today. We hear of teams who play "unsociable" football (ie Geel, Rich, Haw and to some extent Syd) and many refer to our blokes as Choir Boys or the Von Trapp kids. I wonder if other teams think that of us also and take advantage of it.

IMO, the me not us is a direct result of the behaviour of the board and executive over last 20 years, as LP has described elsewhere, players go into a certain self preservation mode. The other aspect is that the high list turnover means that you will end up with a whole bunch of me's and not one us. Our two biggest recruits since Judd have played about 10 games each, and they are supposed to propel us up the ladder.

Re our poor defence. is it down to the lack of synergy that I refer to ? Is it down to coaching instruction ? Does Teague let players off the hook too easily ? Most supporters would say the last option, because that's the standard supporter response, but I'm not convinced.

Our turnover / skill error issues are IMO, directly the result of the headspace and instability / lack of synergy issues that I mention. Let the team settle, give them stability, give them support, and watch things improve. That's my opinion.

I haven't been able to watch the game until now. There was simply too much anger and disappointment with Sunday's result for me to tolerate watching another loss. But I am looking at it now. My observations:
[1] We were pretty damned good in the 1st Quarter. The only thing we couldn't do is kick a goal. Silvagni was excellent, as was Murphy. Setters was good except for his kicking. He should have had 3 goals. One shot didn't even get 35 m!
[2] MicNat was the difference. Simple as that. The guy is such a good ruckman when he is on.
[3] Tom de Koning showed a bit as a resting ruck. But he played almost purely forward after H went down.
[4] With H going off, we were rudderless. It robbed us in the ruck and it robber us in the forward line.

I haven't been able to watch the game until now. There was simply too much anger and disappointment with Sunday's result for me to tolerate watching another loss. But I am looking at it now. My observations:
[1] We were pretty damned good in the 1st Quarter. The only thing we couldn't do is kick a goal. Silvagni was excellent, as was Murphy. Setters was good except for his kicking. He should have had 3 goals. One shot didn't even get 35 m!
[2] MicNat was the difference. Simple as that. The guy is such a good ruckman when he is on.
[3] Tom de Koning showed a bit as a resting ruck. But he played almost purely forward after H went down.
[4] With H going off, we were rudderless. It robbed us in the ruck and it robber us in the forward line.

Agreed.

I don't get some of the hate towards a few of our players, it's like the people doing the commenting did not watch the game!

The last quarter was poor. No way around that. But we competed pretty well until then. And that goal from Betts was sheer Magic!

[1] We should have been well in from at 3/4 time. We had so many opportunities that we couldn't take.
[2] Doc had a shocker early. Things just didn't go his way, for all of his effort. The ball bounced off his head at one point. He was a guy whose game improved as the game went on.
[3] Martin was disappointing and should have come back through the 2nds. he was carrying more bandages than I do, and I do a good impression of the Mummy when I'm in the Gym. Braces all over me!
[4] Setters was so good early, but he dropped out of the game like he was shot. I am very disappointed by Setters. His 1st quarter was as good any anyone this year.
[5] Their goals cam much easier than ours did. We worked so hard for so little reward in the 2nd and 3rd quarters, while theirs came too easily. Goals from any angle.

Crash....I think where a lot of the frustration comes from for most of us supporters is that with all those things, they happen repeatedly...and have been happening repeatedly for awhile now.

1. Should've been well in front and didn't take opportunities.
2. Missing easy shots on goal.
3. Some of the bigger name recruits being disappointing and players fading out of games badly.

Not coming back around to the Teague stay or go argument but read a stat somewhere that in something like 29 of the 40 games under Teague, we've let opposition teams get a run on and kick 5 consecutive goals. I've got no idea what you put that down to but it supports your points.....in a lot of games, should've been in front, didn't take opportunities.

Crash....I think where a lot of the frustration comes from for most of us supporters is that with all those things, they happen repeatedly...and have been happening repeatedly for awhile now.

1. Should've been well in front and didn't take opportunities.
2. Missing easy shots on goal.
3. Some of the bigger name recruits being disappointing and players fading out of games badly.

Not coming back around to the Teague stay or go argument but read a stat somewhere that in something like 29 of the 40 games under Teague, we've let opposition teams get a run on and kick 5 consecutive goals. I've got no idea what you put that down to but it supports your points.....in a lot of games, should've been in front, didn't take opportunities.

Oh, I understand the frustration. I have it myself. It is one of the reasons I don't post a lot immediately after a loss. The anger and frustration is not good for my health, so I am trying to minimize it. Pity our team is trying to maximize it.

I have come to the conclusion that our players have killed our coach. I cannot say it is anyone specific blame: there is so much to share around that no individual can possibly grab it all. But our coaching staff need to accept their share and do something about it. That doesn't appear to have happened.
For that matter, a few of our senior players need to take ownership of their failings and do something about it.

Absolutely agree....but history shows that when things aren't going too well, the players survive but it's the head coach who loses his job.

Hopefully this "review" gets to the bottom of some of the issues and things turn around in the second half of the season.

The last quarter was poor. No way around that. But we competed pretty well until then. And that goal from Betts was sheer Magic!

[1] We should have been well in from at 3/4 time. We had so many opportunities that we couldn't take.
[2] Doc had a shocker early. Things just didn't go his way, for all of his effort. The ball bounced off his head at one point. He was a guy whose game improved as the game went on.
[3] Martin was disappointing and should have come back through the 2nds. he was carrying more bandages than I do, and I do a good impression of the Mummy when I'm in the Gym. Braces all over me!
[4] Setters was so good early, but he dropped out of the game like he was shot. I am very disappointed by Setters. His 1st quarter was as good any anyone this year.
[5] Their goals cam much easier than ours did. We worked so hard for so little reward in the 2nd and 3rd quarters, while theirs came too easily. Goals from any angle.

Interesting Martin played much more in the guts than previously.  Didn’t do anything, but played there.

Oh, I understand the frustration. I have it myself. It is one of the reasons I don't post a lot immediately after a loss. The anger and frustration is not good for my health, so I am trying to minimize it. Pity our team is trying to maximize it.

I have come to the conclusion that our players have killed our coach. I cannot say it is anyone specific blame: there is so much to share around that no individual can possibly grab it all. But our coaching staff need to accept their share and do something about it. That doesn't appear to have happened.
For that matter, a few of our senior players need to take ownership of their failings and do something about it.

Just a few?

That is an inevitability, since I don't listen to anything he says, unless I come across it on these forums.

So, please explain to me the true meaning behind the great man's words.

G2C gives a reasonable summation above.
Search an old episode of “On the couch” with Sellars about 2010-13 vintage.
The bloke is many things including opinionated, but listen to the things he sees as non negotiable for a successful footy team, it’s hard to dismiss them.
I completely understand your dislike of the talking/ranting heads in the media, sometimes the ranting comes from passion, doesn’t mean it’s 100% correct, but what/who is ??

G2C gives a reasonable summation above.
Search an old episode of “On the couch” with Sellars about 2010-13 vintage.
The bloke is many things including opinionated, but listen to the things he sees as non negotiable for a successful footy team, it’s hard to dismiss them.
I completely understand your dislike of the talking/ranting heads in the media, sometimes the ranting comes from passion, doesn’t mean it’s 100% correct, but what/who is ??

I did a quick search for that episode, found nothing. You don't mean Open Mike by any chance ? That's from 2013.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1g6nLGXTQc

At any rate. I have watched that in the past. It's fairly standard old man fare IMO, talking about the good old days and how they had standards which are not present in today's AFL players. That episode is ok, but it stands apart from his general Fox Media work because Sheahan still has a skerrick of journalistic integrity, and guides Maclure in a somewhat sensible direction.

He, like many of his ilk, makes a lot of assertions from the outside without really having much current insider knowledge. He's never worked in any offical capacity at the club (certainly not recently) has probably never even met most of the players and others he criticises, and is in my view not all that different from any other grumpy fan on the sidelines.

I did a quick search for that episode, found nothing. You don't mean Open Mike by any chance ? That's from 2013.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1g6nLGXTQc

At any rate. I have watched that in the past. It's fairly standard old man fare IMO, talking about the good old days and how they had standards which are not present in today's AFL players. That episode is ok, but it stands apart from his general Fox Media work because Sheahan still has a skerrick of journalistic integrity, and guides Maclure in a somewhat sensible direction.

He, like many of his ilk, makes a lot of assertions from the outside without really having much current insider knowledge. He's never worked in any offical capacity at the club (certainly not recently) has probably never even met most of the players and others he criticises, and is in my view not all that different from any other grumpy fan on the sidelines.

Actually Pauly, he and Andy Maher used to do that official Carlton weekly podcast a few years ago, Sellers got booted from it IIRC.

Actually Pauly, he and Andy Maher used to do that official Carlton weekly podcast a few years ago, Sellers got booted from it IIRC.

Did they ? OK, my bad. It's hard to keep up with all the different podcasts, twitter accounts, pay TV, free to air, radio etc.

I should add, it doesn't really change my position, but clearly it's much better to have more knowledge than less.

I should add, it doesn't really change my position, but clearly it's much better to have more knowledge than less.

Wasnt attempting to change your position, just saying he did "work" for the club but more importantly got booted as I think he constantly potted Bolts.

Wasnt attempting to change your position, just saying he did "work" for the club but more importantly got booted as I think he constantly potted Bolts.

All good GTC.

Yes, I think you’re correct about the “Open Mike” program.
You see a grumpy old man I see a bloke who’s been there and done it.
And the things he was banging on about then, he still bangs on about now, team, sacrifice for teammates etc.
They are timeless requirements, if you don’t have them you won’t have the ultimate success.
I don’t deny that tactically he’s playing a kick behind, but again you only have to kick more goals than the opposition more weeks than not and you then start looking to playing in September don’t you…

Yes, I think you’re correct about the “Open Mike” program.
You see a grumpy old man I see a bloke who’s been there and done it.
And the things he was banging on about then, he still bangs on about now, team, sacrifice for teammates etc.
They are timeless requirements, if you don’t have them you won’t have the ultimate success.
I don’t deny that tactically he’s playing a kick behind, but again you only have to kick more goals than the opposition more weeks than not and you then start looking to playing in September don’t you…

You can have poor results and still put the team first, sacrifice for each other etc. The implication from media and fans is that modern players are selfish, or they play for the lifestyle, or they're cushy with big contracts, or they have a sense of entitlement etc., and as such they're not like Sellers and his mob, who supposedly played the right way for the right reasons. I disagree. I've stated my opinions about our lack of cohesion, perception of selfishness, lack of connection etc., being down to instability and other things, and there's no need to repeat them again.

One thing I will say, in that Youtube link I posted above, stretched out to widescreen format he looks like Jabba the Hutt.

I think the caterers in the press box have lifted their intensity…

I tend not to post for a few days after a loss when my emotions are on a more even keel.  However, by that time, most of what I want to say has been addressed.

One thing I do want to mention is Nic Newman's attempted mark and frightening impact with the SCG turf.  There's no doubt that it was a courageous effort but is that what we want from our medium defenders?

Weitering had good position on Darling, until Newman took him out, and would have spoiled or marked.  We were effectively two men out of the contest and West Coast crumbed and kicked to the square, eventually resulting in Jones missing an easy set shot.  I know it's an instinctive thing for players to attempt to mark with the flight of the ball (although I think Newman was attempting to spoil) but hard-nosed defenders curb their instincts and do the team thing.  Newman should have been focused on getting the loose ball, stopping West Coast crumbers from getting it, or tackling before they could get a disposal away.  As it turned out West Coast had more players at the fall of the ball and two of ours were out of the contest with Darling gaining possession while Weitering was distracted.

 It's only one incident but it's typical of the poor decision-making, poor positioning and lack of discipline that causes us to miss out on scoring opportunities at one end and give up goals at the other.

I tend not to post for a few days after a loss when my emotions are on a more even keel.  However, by that time, most of what I want to say has been addressed.

One thing I do want to mention is Nic Newman's attempted mark and frightening impact with the SCG turf.  There's no doubt that it was a courageous effort but is that what we want from our medium defenders?

Weitering had good position on Darling, until Newman took him out, and would have spoiled or marked.  We were effectively two men out of the contest and West Coast crumbed and kicked to the square, eventually resulting in Jones missing an easy set shot.  I know it's an instinctive thing for players to attempt to mark with the flight of the ball (although I think Newman was attempting to spoil) but hard-nosed defenders curb their instincts and do the team thing.  Newman should have been focused on getting the loose ball, stopping West Coast crumbers from getting it, or tackling before they could get a disposal away.  As it turned out West Coast had more players at the fall of the ball and two of ours were out of the contest with Darling gaining possession while Weitering was distracted.

 It's only one incident but it's typical of the poor decision-making, poor positioning and lack of discipline that causes us to miss out on scoring opportunities at one end and give up goals at the other.

Backline doesnt work as team, you look at Richmond and now Melbourne and there seems plenty of communication and players seem to know when to cover for a mate or call out a player in marking contests.
Points to Newman for courage but as you say it wasnt necessary with Weitering in control of Darling and highlights we have a backline of individuals rather than a unit working in cohesion.
But when you have moves like the inexperienced Stocker picking up the dangerous Ryan it also tells you there isnt much help from the coaches box either and probably endorses the decision to have a Review.

Missing Simpson ;)

Backline doesnt work as team, you look at Richmond and now Melbourne and there seems plenty of communication and players seem to know when to cover for a mate or call out a player in marking contests.
Points to Newman for courage but as you say it wasnt necessary with Weitering in control of Darling and highlights we have a backline of individuals rather than a unit working in cohesion.
But when you have moves like the inexperienced Stocker picking up the dangerous Ryan it also tells you there isnt much help from the coaches box either and probably endorses the decision to have a Review.

As David King said, it needed the experienced head of the captain Docherty to go to Stocker and say "Move aside son, I got this". Zero leadership and poor match day coaching.

Lods....tend to agree in hindsight. An experienced older head would be handy right about now.

On a side note, reading that Brad Hardie (who is a poor man's Kane Cornes IMO) is stating categorically that Brayden Maynard will be at Melbourne next year. He's the kind of hard nut we could do with in the backline but with the surplus of half back flankers, it would look silly targeting him.

Missing Simpson ;)

Missing Peter Dean.....Kade didnt really bother too much with minding a man, it was more see ball get ball type defense.😉

Lods....tend to agree in hindsight. An experienced older head would be handy right about now.

On a side note, reading that Brad Hardie (who is a poor man's Kane Cornes IMO) is stating categorically that Brayden Maynard will be at Melbourne next year. He's the kind of hard nut we could do with in the backline but with the surplus of half back flankers, it would look silly targeting him.

Surfie. Like I said in another post....Maynards brother and father both played for the Dees but he wont  leave the Pies unless  they really shafted him next contract. Brad Hardie fires a lot of bullets but doesnt hit much..

We also got rid of an ex Collingwood backman .... like the dimwits we are.

True EB....Hardie gets lonely in the media and comes out with made up stories and hopes that one sticks....

I tend not to post for a few days after a loss when my emotions are on a more even keel.  However, by that time, most of what I want to say has been addressed.

One thing I do want to mention is Nic Newman's attempted mark and frightening impact with the SCG turf.  There's no doubt that it was a courageous effort but is that what we want from our medium defenders?

Weitering had good position on Darling, until Newman took him out, and would have spoiled or marked.  We were effectively two men out of the contest and West Coast crumbed and kicked to the square, eventually resulting in Jones missing an easy set shot.  I know it's an instinctive thing for players to attempt to mark with the flight of the ball (although I think Newman was attempting to spoil) but hard-nosed defenders curb their instincts and do the team thing.  Newman should have been focused on getting the loose ball, stopping West Coast crumbers from getting it, or tackling before they could get a disposal away.  As it turned out West Coast had more players at the fall of the ball and two of ours were out of the contest with Darling gaining possession while Weitering was distracted.

 It's only one incident but it's typical of the poor decision-making, poor positioning and lack of discipline that causes us to miss out on scoring opportunities at one end and give up goals at the other.

Damned if you do, damned if your don't.

If he decided to stop running back with the flight and tried to get front and square for the crumbs, people would've complained he pussy'd out.

He'll learn from it, and Teague will prep him for the next time.

It was a freak collision, that probably won't happen again this year. However, i'd rather our players be too brave, than not brave enough.

Remember Walshs mark going back with the flight......that could've ended the same way. Luck of the draw.