Carlton Supporters Club

Princes Park => Robert Heatley Stand => Topic started by: Lods on June 07, 2021, 06:03:47 pm

Title: Football Department Review
Post by: Lods on June 07, 2021, 06:03:47 pm
Here we go...

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/carlton-to-launch-external-review-of-football-department-20210607-p57yul.html?fbclid=IwAR3OPdbJRSjBJx_2-x6Gv8ioOLtTW20fDwua2ASLMlgDXLqqz2W-SUwNvhM

Quote
Carlton is set to launch an external review on the club’s football department, which is expected to decide the future of coach David Teague and his assistants.
The club’s incoming president Luke Sayers has been in Sydney with the team, where he has been conducting informal interviews with several senior players and coaches.

The review of the football department, which will be implemented by Sayers and conducted by outsiders, will begin in the coming weeks.
Several board members believed a review would take place at the end of the season if Carlton didn’t make the finals, but that process has been brought forward in the wake of poor results.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 07, 2021, 06:08:10 pm
Here we go....

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/carlton-to-launch-external-review-of-football-department-20210607-p57yul.html?fbclid=IwAR3OPdbJRSjBJx_2-x6Gv8ioOLtTW20fDwua2ASLMlgDXLqqz2W-SUwNvhM

Thanks for that link lods.

Multiple club sources, including players, have told The Age Sayers has been asking people their opinion on where the club is breaking down.

At least one player has talked about the lack of clarity in the team’s game plan, while another questioned elements of team selection.

Carlton football department chief Brad Lloyd said he would support a post-season review if required, but insisted Teague was safe for next year.

“I am not across exactly what Luke’s plans are when he takes over but I am supportive of whatever is going to help the footy club. Those sorts of reviews, if they happen, if there are things found that help improve the club, I am all for it,” Lloyd said.


Why only the football department ? 

Taking bets now - Teague to stay, most if not all assistants gone. New football manager 50/50.



Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 07, 2021, 06:08:45 pm
About 7 years too late.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 07, 2021, 06:09:23 pm
About 7 years too late.

Yep
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 07, 2021, 06:10:31 pm
Why only the football department ? 

Because the rest of the club is flying.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on June 07, 2021, 06:10:39 pm
It's a process some of us have been wanting, but I agree with Paul...why just the football department?
I suspect we know the answer ::)

“Never hold an inquiry unless you know what the outcome will be”
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on June 07, 2021, 06:10:54 pm
Great news. Especially that it is independent.

That players have expressed concern over game plan (confusion) and the MC explains a lot.

Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 07, 2021, 06:12:03 pm
Great news. Especially that it is independent.

That players have expressed concern over game plan (confusion) and the MC explains a lot.



Boltons criticism was the same from memory.  Our players dont seem to like game plans...
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 07, 2021, 06:14:02 pm
I think Teague might get another year but if the club were really behind him they would offer another 2-3....its not looking good for him IMO and it puts pressure on him straight away rnd 1 next season and to be honest just make the change if its going to a 1 year only extension, dont string him along and mess with his mental health.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on June 07, 2021, 06:14:46 pm
Thanks for that link lods.

Multiple club sources, including players, have told The Age Sayers has been asking people their opinion on where the club is breaking down.

At least one player has talked about the lack of clarity in the team’s game plan, while another questioned elements of team selection.

Carlton football department chief Brad Lloyd said he would support a post-season review if required, but insisted Teague was safe for next year.

“I am not across exactly what Luke’s plans are when he takes over but I am supportive of whatever is going to help the footy club. Those sorts of reviews, if they happen, if there are things found that help improve the club, I am all for it,” Lloyd said.


Why only the football department ?  Probably because it is the only department failing.

Taking bets now - Teague to stay, most if not all assistants gone. New football manager 50/50. Yep.





Interesting that Lloyd seems a little defensive... well, guess what fella, the buck stops with you. You should be a little nervous.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: shawny on June 07, 2021, 06:16:24 pm
I must be living under a bridge but i was unaware Sayers is our new incoming president. I just read it on the link above.

We have all heard the rumours doing the rounds about his connection to Dan's back injury?

I don't know much about him but if the word on the street is true he is a hard man on fronts. If that's true he may be exactly what we need to clean the club out of so many of the nice guys we have and bring back some real mongrel and grit on all levels. Not much to get excited about recently but this one gives me some hope  
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 07, 2021, 06:20:09 pm
It's a process some of us have been wanting, but I agree with Paul...why just the football department?
I suspect we know the answer ::)

“Never hold an inquiry unless you know what the outcome will be”

I agree lods.

It smacks of disunity - "you guys are the problem, we're doing fine." Well guess what ? Who signs off on the coaches, players etc. Who signed up Malthouse ? Who signed off on the mother of all rebuilds ?  Who signs off on all the sackings ? Who still gets dictated to by the Pratt / Mathieson factions ?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 07, 2021, 06:22:36 pm
Boltons criticism was the same from memory.  Our players dont seem to like game plans...

The only coaches that have had any kind of success recently are the free wheeling coaches, Ratts and Teague.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on June 07, 2021, 06:24:13 pm
I agree lods.

It smacks of disunity - "you guys are the problem, we're doing fine." Well guess what ? Who signs off on the coaches, players etc. Who signed up Malthouse ? Who signed off on the mother of all rebuilds ?  Who signs off on all the sackings ? Who still gets dictated to by the Pratt / Mathieson factions ?

Always address the patient's most urgent needs first...
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 07, 2021, 06:29:02 pm
Always address the patient's most urgent needs first...

It always starts at the top IMO - always. You won't find a single dynasty team that has a board like ours. If they think they are doing a good job because Liddle stooged a few people to buy memberships (and gave away a few free ones for good measure), they are kidding themselves.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 07, 2021, 06:33:35 pm
It always starts at the top IMO - always. You won't find a single dynasty team that has a board like ours. If they think they are doing a good job because Liddle stooged a few people to buy memberships (and gave away a few free ones for good measure), they are kidding themselves.
110%
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 07, 2021, 06:36:15 pm
If its true about some of the players complaining then thats probably going to be very hard for the review panel to ignore.
I almost get the feeling the review panel might be wearing black hoods and looking more like an execution committee.
Liddle is a smart operator, he wouldnt be doing the old hire somebody else to find the coach guilty and save himself and friends while claiming it was all independent and therefore no blood on his hands.
Wonder who is paying the Independent reviewers and who is picking them....?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on June 07, 2021, 06:36:46 pm
Just a word of caution...we only have the McClure story as a source.
It might pay to wait to hear from the club regarding the nature and scope of any review.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 07, 2021, 06:38:21 pm
Just a word of caution...we only have the McClure story as a source.
It might pay to wait to hear from the club regarding the nature and scope of any review.

No way Lods. We're off and running.  ;D
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 07, 2021, 06:39:41 pm
I'm all for it and it needs to begin now! I'm sure it will encompass other elements of the club as they go hand in hand. For example, when the CEO dabbles in football dept matters such as recruitment and list management.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 07, 2021, 06:40:05 pm
Just a word of caution...we only have the McClure story as a source.
It might pay to wait to hear from the club regarding the nature and scope of any review.
CH 7  about to report it. They said it over the weekend, power brokers were beginning to move around in their seats.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: rocky on June 07, 2021, 06:43:06 pm
CH 7  about to report it. They said it over the weekend, power brokers were beginning to move around in their seats.
Same on CH9.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 07, 2021, 06:44:18 pm
And as for Lloyd not knowing about Sayers' plans, I'd recommend he starts to tidy up his CV and gather his belongings.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: rocky on June 07, 2021, 06:53:37 pm
CH9 basically just quoting what has already been said. Far reaching review to be undertaken, blah, blah blah. Caroline reporting Teague not as secure as he was on Friday, blah, blah blah.
On a side, straight after this piece there was a report on a Freo bloke who gave Weightman from the dogs a whack in the nuts and has been given a 1 week suspension!! MRP, you are a dead set disgrace. Make me sick
Title: Re: Review
Post by: shawny on June 07, 2021, 06:55:23 pm
I think Teague might get another year but if the club were really behind him they would offer another 2-3....its not looking good for him IMO and it puts pressure on him straight away rnd 1 next season and to be honest just make the change if its going to a 1 year only extension, dont string him along and mess with his mental health.

What about our mental health watching the same rubbish for the last 6 years. Their big boys EB they earn big coin and they know the drill in the caper they are in.

We should do whatever needs to be done for the betterment of the club. We have been rebuilding for bloody longer then anyone of us would have thought it would take to get a strong list yet we are still a bottom tier team with holes in too many critical positions and a coaching panel that is dated and soft and apart from Power they are all consistent losers. If we sacked them all tomorrow I doubt any apart from Power would be picked up which sums it up. 

Whatever needs to be done needs to be done regardless of how bad it looks and regardless of who gets hurt. Its a ruthless industry and unless we get proactive for once we will stay in the position we are currently in.

Time for our balls to drop and maybe the new pres is the man to start the major changes.

Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 07, 2021, 07:04:48 pm
What about our mental health watching the same rubbish for the last 6 years. Their big boys EB they earn big coin and they know the drill in the caper they are in.

We should do whatever needs to be done for the betterment of the club. We have been rebuilding for bloody longer then anyone of us would have thought it would take to get a strong list yet we are still a bottom tier team with holes in too many critical positions and a coaching panel that is dated and soft and apart from Power they are all consistent losers. If we sacked them all tomorrow I doubt any apart from Power would be picked up which sums it up. 

Whatever needs to be done needs to be done regardless of how bad it looks and regardless of who gets hurt. Its a ruthless industry and unless we get proactive for once we will stay in the position we are currently in.

Time for our balls to drop and maybe the new pres is the man to start the major changes.


Shawny, Dont disagree we need action but we dont need Teague on death row for 12 months, if thats what the powers at be want then just get over it with and do it. Sacking Teague isnt my idea of a solution but I get others have had enough,want results and need to see the club acting with strength.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 07, 2021, 07:10:55 pm
Shawny, Dont disagree we need action but we dont need Teague on death row for 12 months, if thats what the powers at be want then just get over it with and do it. Sacking Teague isnt my idea of a solution but I get others have had enough,want results and need to see the club acting with strength.

There's nothing wrong with taking action per se, but it has to be the right action - too often we take the wrong action, hence our problems.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 07, 2021, 07:16:34 pm
EB, that was my way of saying I agree with you.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: WASurfer on June 07, 2021, 07:16:51 pm
EB....damned if they do and damned if they don't really (sack Teague). But unless there's a highly credentialed coach that they speak to and that person confirms he's interested in the job, putting a caretaker in won't make a lick of difference. And in reality, it's Clarkson or a Lyon....another first time coach will just have the same imminent disaster written all over it.

I'm guessing they'll see out Teague's one more year but get some much better assistant coaches in. And on that, what, if anything, has Worsfold done since his "appointment"?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 07, 2021, 07:18:45 pm
For all we know Woosha may have suggested the review. He's only been around for 5 minutes and suddenly the review is brought forward. It's not implausible IMO
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 07, 2021, 07:20:07 pm
There's nothing wrong with taking action per se, but it has to be the right action - too often we take the wrong action, hence our problems.
That fact that its independent is a big tick for me, get the people doing it right and it could be the best thing that happens to our club.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 07, 2021, 07:24:03 pm
That fact that its independent is a big tick for me, get the people doing it right and it could be the best thing that happens to our club.

I agree, but I'd be curious to know the terms of reference and who's paying.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 07, 2021, 07:29:44 pm
I agree, but I'd be curious to know the terms of reference and who's paying.
I'd imagine its one of two things. He is a board member so he might have sought approval from the board for the club to pay for it. Or, he is paying for it out of his own kick as many board members contribute financially to the club. As for the terms of reference, not sure.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 07, 2021, 07:37:49 pm
I'd imagine its one of two things. He is a board member so he might have sought approval from the board for the club to pay for it. Or, he is paying for it out of his own kick as many board members contribute financially to the club. As for the terms of reference, not sure.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on June 07, 2021, 07:54:23 pm
Having thought about it a bit the timing is a little awkward...but probably necessary.
If they're going to cull assistants they need to do it shortly as they have to be let known if they have a spot for next year (around early August From memory)
Any change to the senior coaching position needs to be done ASAP after our season finishes so they can be ready for pre-season (and perhaps have an input in drafting).
Football department admin guys need to be ready for trading/drafting.


The problem of course is that Teague and his assistants now have to operate in an environment where they not only have to deal with the on-field issues, but they need to do so with one eye over their shoulder...an added burden.
They need to do so with the knowledge that there is some player discontent over aspects of the game plan and selections.
They'll be second guessing themselves.
If Teague and the others were feeling pressure, it now becomes more intense.
How the players respond will be very interesting and tell a lot about unity.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: madbluboy on June 07, 2021, 07:56:10 pm
Sayers has reportedly already met with captains Patrick Cripps and Sam Docherty as part of an unofficial review, and has received negative feedback about elements of Teague and his coaching staff’s work.

“At least one player has talked about the lack of clarity in the team’s game plan, while another questioned elements of team selection,” the report said.

Essendon great Matthew Lloyd argued the review should encompass more than just Teague and his coaching stuff.

“I think everything should be up on the table, including the captains,” he told 3AW’s Sportsday.

“It’s so much more than Teague, and so much more than Cripps.”

Reporter Sam McClure added: “There have been some concerning answers (to Sayers), particularly from some of the players about divisions beginning to emerge between certain coaches and certain players.”
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 07, 2021, 08:02:55 pm
Sayers has reportedly already met with captains Patrick Cripps and Sam Docherty as part of an unofficial review, and has received negative feedback about elements of Teague and his coaching staff’s work....................................................

Reporter Sam McClure added: “There have been some concerning answers (to Sayers), particularly from some of the players about divisions beginning to emerge between certain coaches and certain players.”

That first sentence and last sentence are particularly disturbing IMO.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: WASurfer on June 07, 2021, 08:05:33 pm
Agree PP....doesn't bode well at all.

There'll be plenty of "unnamed sources" etc coming out now. Flogs like Cornes and Tom Browne and Barrett will have a field day with this.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: madbluboy on June 07, 2021, 08:06:20 pm
That first sentence and last sentence are particularly disturbing IMO.


Steven Seagal wouldn't be able to save the Teague train now.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 07, 2021, 08:08:02 pm
Agree PP....doesn't bode well at all.

There'll be plenty of "unnamed sources" etc coming out now. Flogs like Cornes and Tom Browne and Barrett will have a field day with this.

Yes, if the various participants don't trust each other, and don't have the maturity to handle the review properly, this could easily cause deep divisions.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 07, 2021, 08:11:22 pm
Bolton busted his nut trying to achieve unity and create a Hawthorn-like culture. He may end up feeling pretty vindicated when all this is done.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 07, 2021, 08:13:23 pm
EB, that was my way of saying I agree with you.
Paul, Always happy to share my biased opinions with you and even happier when you agree...😉
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 07, 2021, 08:16:01 pm
Of course it's very early days, even before the review has started, but from the rumblings and rumours, it seems like a whole bunch of cliques with no unity and no control at the top.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: madbluboy on June 07, 2021, 08:16:13 pm
Should never have gave a nice guy and former player like Teague the job, it's heartbreaking when we sack them.

Need to hire a prick like Brad Scott where we don't care what happens in the end it's just business.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 07, 2021, 08:17:24 pm
Paul, Always happy to share my biased opinions with you and even happier when you agree...😉

Lol. I share my biased opinions with anything that moves.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: WASurfer on June 07, 2021, 08:20:48 pm
PP....in any big business, as soon as there's rumblings and division between leaders etc, someone's job becomes untenable. And history shows it's usually the senior coach that gets the @rse....it's a lot easier to move one bloke on than it is half a dozen or so who don't/can't work with him....especially if they're "senior players".
Title: Re: Review
Post by: madbluboy on June 07, 2021, 08:22:18 pm
If they have already decided that Teague is not the man then they should part ways now and let Worsfold take over till they find their man. No point in dragging this on for the rest of the year.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 07, 2021, 08:24:23 pm
PP....in any big business, as soon as there's rumblings and division between leaders etc, someone's job becomes untenable. And history shows it's usually the senior coach that gets the @rse....it's a lot easier to move one bloke on than it is half a dozen or so who don't/can't work with him....especially if they're "senior players".

No doubt that's true, but the key phrase in your post is "it's a lot easier to move one bloke". Not the correct solution, not the potentially hard but fair and correct solution, just the easier solution. And there's the problem right there.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: WASurfer on June 07, 2021, 08:26:24 pm
Yep I wasn't saying it's right or fair......it's just usually what DOES happen.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 07, 2021, 08:30:32 pm
Yep I wasn't saying it's right or fair......it's just usually what DOES happen.

Yes, no doubt, but you won't solve problems that way, unless you get lucky.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LoveNavy on June 07, 2021, 08:32:17 pm
I must be living under a bridge but i was unaware Sayers is our new incoming president. I just read it on the link above.

We have all heard the rumours doing the rounds about his connection to Dan's back injury?

I don't know much about him but if the word on the street is true he is a hard man on fronts. If that's true he may be exactly what we need to clean the club out of so many of the nice guys we have and bring back some real mongrel and grit on all levels. Not much to get excited about recently but this one gives me some hope  


https://www.afl.com.au/news/603306/carlton-president-mark-logiudice-reveals-hes-stepping-down-luke-sayers-to-replace-him/amp

A bit of background on the president elect. I heard Caro saying he is an auditor and a hard taskmaster - FWIW

Just in terms of the reported comments from players: anyone following AFL has repeatedly asked
1. What's the game plan?
2. Why that selection?
The only other equally obvious question is 3. Why are blokes continually played out of position?

Go figure. I'm at a loss to understand our goals. I guess that says it all really. When long term members have no idea of the club's direction/brand, there's probably a chink in the armor.


Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 07, 2021, 08:42:33 pm
In the article it states to "Start in coming weeks", on the TV I've seen Caro state twice that it's to start "At the end of the season"

So I'm calling bullcrap story!

All clubs review football and executive performance at the end of each season.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 07, 2021, 08:54:36 pm
We've changed a few times but the bottom line remains similar. Half arsed efforts from the players, their lack of drive, motivation, hunger etc. The only thing different with Teague is that they have been half arsed rather fully arsed as under the previous two coaches. We have shown to be a competitive unit against anyone despite being half arsed. Wouldn't take that much to go from that to a good side given how close we run games. Has to player, peer pressure driven. Peer pressure not to accept 5hit. Works with good clubs.

The omens though is that these type of reviews work out that the coach stays, duties are reduced and redefined  to reduce pressure, everyone else goes, and like Geelong, Richmond go on to win the flag the next year. Collingwood went on to be runners-up, but that is Collingwood....lol.

Title: Re: Review
Post by: spf on June 07, 2021, 08:55:45 pm
I must be living under a bridge but i was unaware Sayers is our new incoming president. I just read it on the link above.

We have all heard the rumours doing the rounds about his connection to Dan's back injury?

I don't know much about him but if the word on the street is true he is a hard man on fronts. If that's true he may be exactly what we need to clean the club out of so many of the nice guys we have and bring back some real mongrel and grit on all levels. Not much to get excited about recently but this one gives me some hope  

Well, stories have already appeared in Northern media:
https://cairnsnews.org/2021/04/16/deadly-dan-who-backed-the-china-plan-could-be-in-one-of-his-victorian-courts/

Sayers and Andrews are good friends according to the report.

**Edit: Actually it looks more like a blog thing after second viewing.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 07, 2021, 08:55:54 pm
“At least one player has talked about the lack of clarity in the team’s game plan, while another questioned elements of team selection,” the report said.

Mick Malthouse always used to say that the 22nd bloke on the list loves you, and the 23rd blokes hates you. Could simply be a bit of that.

Could be an extrapolation from the Murphy comments the other day.

You have 40+ players on a list and more staff.....there will always be some kind of questioning between some with numbers that high.

Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 07, 2021, 09:42:15 pm
I wonder if the departures of Judd and MLG are related to the review ?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 07, 2021, 10:35:16 pm
Should never have gave a nice guy and former player like Teague the job, it's heartbreaking when we sack them.

Need to hire a prick like Brad Scott where we don't care what happens in the end it's just business.
Like Malthouse?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 07, 2021, 10:44:15 pm
I lay London to a brick Mr Sayers will be gathering information from everywhere he can, even forums such is this one.
I would doubt he is doing this without the knowledge of the rest of the Board so he will know exactly what they think.
He will be canvassing all the key stakeholders, players, other coaches, supporters, sponsors, boot studders, trainers, you name it.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on June 07, 2021, 11:07:21 pm
Just a bit of housekeeping.
This thread probably belongs in the Bluebloods Bar.
Could one of the mods do the move.
My Bad.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 07, 2021, 11:11:01 pm
Liked Matthew Lloyd's face when Caro suggested his bros position will also come under scrutiny. Lloyd said Carlton isn't the basket case other clubs are and can turn it around..
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Micky0 on June 07, 2021, 11:36:49 pm
Come on Shawny and SPF you’re quoting the Cairns news ffs and rehashing rumours that Sayers beat up Dan Andrews :(  from the article you just posted spf, you fully believe this bullcrap? Christ.

The Facebookers allege Andrews is fighting a rape charge in court, under the radar naturally, for a dalliance with one of Lindsay Fox’s grand-daughters aged 17.  In return Andrews is said to be prosecuting his assailants for bashing him senseless over the alleged rape.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Micky0 on June 07, 2021, 11:38:49 pm
Back to some proper facts ffs, re footy, Lloyd on FC is in such a conflict I don’t know why they ask him Carlton related questions but he has now mentioned Cripps a few times yet not Doch in the same manner… I think Doch is playing a crapload worse than Cripps yet he’s not mentioned by Lloyd at all…
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Micky0 on June 07, 2021, 11:40:48 pm
Lastly I’m dunking overly annoyed that we are yet again doing the will they won’t they sack the coach, talk on footy shows! Sick to death of being THAT story.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 08, 2021, 05:15:37 am
Lastly I’m dunking overly annoyed that we are yet again doing the will they won’t they sack the coach, talk on footy shows! Sick to death of being THAT story.
agree but we've earned that by sacking more coaches in the last 9 years than any other club.  We are running at 4 senior coaches since the start of the 2012 season.

Ratten
Malthouse
Bolton
Teague.

If you count barker as the stand in as half a season its a joke.  We either have no idea how to appoint a senior coach and run a footy club or keep appointing the wrong horse.


As for Docherty, I think he is still getting a pass from spending 2 years out with knee reconstructions and people are just happy to see him out there trying.  Better players than him have been cut down by one knee reconstruction and not come back and played footy like he has.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 08, 2021, 07:27:29 am
Liked Matthew Lloyd's face when Caro suggested his bros position will also come under scrutiny. Lloyd said Carlton isn't the basket case other clubs are and can turn it around..

He probably has a point, even taking into account his obvious conflict of interest.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 08, 2021, 07:53:33 am
He probably has a point, even taking into account his obvious conflict of interest.
Agree, we aren't a basket case. If we were struggling off field also, then yes many facets of the club would be in turmoil and we would be in real strife. Thats not the case and if listen to many commentators/analysts, we aren't that far away on field. The main common themes people are talking about are:
- Leadership (on field communication and reinforcement of structures)
- Selfishness vs Team First (comes across as poor effort)
- Fitness/Concentration (we concede more points than anyone in red time - I found an article from 2015 that this was the case then also so its been happening at our club for a long time)
- Selection Criteria (Murphy, SPS, LOB, Doc, Casboult etc)
Probably with the exception of the last one, all the others can be fixed by the players themselves.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 08:25:58 am
He probably has a point, even taking into account his obvious conflict of interest.
Personally, in recent times I think Brad Lloyd has done an OK job, which makes some of that attention seem political. I was one who did not want him initially, but credit where credit is due, there is no point hanging onto falsities when wrong and based on recent events I was wrong about Brad Lloyd.

What is Sayers relationship to SOS, would they burn the joint to get back in the door?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 08, 2021, 09:12:08 am
Come on Shawny and SPF you’re quoting the Cairns news ffs and rehashing rumours that Sayers beat up Dan Andrews :(  from the article you just posted spf, you fully believe this bullcrap? Christ.

The Facebookers allege Andrews is fighting a rape charge in court, under the radar naturally, for a dalliance with one of Lindsay Fox’s grand-daughters aged 17.  In return Andrews is said to be prosecuting his assailants for bashing him senseless over the alleged rape.

I have a client who is close friends with LF. I know exactly what happened. It wasn't that.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Professer E on June 08, 2021, 09:27:58 am
Remember people,  we pay the bills of the football media circus,  and other club's benefit by the distractions created by the latest CFC saga - stage managed by the likes of Flubbo, Caro and the rest of the dribbling sycophants.   For example,  another low strike was made this week,  and the perpetrator was dealt with a lot more harshly - HTF did Mills get off?  Why isn't the heat in this latest example being ratcheted up.... Because trouble at Carlton equals money money money to these vultures.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 08, 2021, 09:29:55 am
Heard Leppa on SEN and was brilliant, there was a lot discussed but these were some of the main ones:
- He was part of a problem at one club, then 3 months later was part of the solution at another so its not necessarily that people are incompetent, just need to find the right role.
- Players who have potted the coach to the board would be the first to go, they are untrustworthy
- Richmond review culture weekly (externally by Shane McCurry)
- Andrew Russell - Does both Fitness and leadership - this is a worry to him, you need to have dedicated people in dedicated roles. Someone like McCurry works with many organisations and is constantly learning about his area of expertise and imparting it to organisations that he works with. Russell cannot be doing two roles efficiently, could be due to soft cap restrictions, comes down to what you value.
- Suggestions for Teague  - Try one or two things different this week to get players engaged and stimulated, e.g Get players to focus on the red time scores and what they can do to stop it happening. Stk and Ratten did it to stop runs of goals by getting Membrey to push back deep to the goal line, Higgins played higher up the ground and got more possies and more shots on goal as a result.
Ill try and find the audio and post it.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 08, 2021, 10:28:00 am
One down!

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/blues-assistant-barker-resigns-will-depart-during-bye-20210608-p57z14.html
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 10:30:49 am
One down!

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/blues-assistant-barker-resigns-will-depart-during-bye-20210608-p57z14.html
While this may well be the shooting of Bambi, I think it was inevitable, Barker was one of few stones left unturned.

Are we shocked that when he offered they acted immediately, should this be a surprise us or a tell?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Professer E on June 08, 2021, 10:34:00 am
A tell.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 10:39:06 am
A tell.
I think there is a good chance you are correct, but time will tell.

Playing Devil's Advocate, would Barker stepped aside become a candidate for the replacement of Teague?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 08, 2021, 11:16:50 am
Heard Leppa on SEN and was brilliant, there was a lot discussed but these were some of the main ones:
- He was part of a problem at one club, then 3 months later was part of the solution at another so its not necessarily that people are incompetent, just need to find the right role.
- Players who have potted the coach to the board would be the first to go, they are untrustworthy
- Richmond review culture weekly (externally by Shane McCurry)
- Andrew Russell - Does both Fitness and leadership - this is a worry to him, you need to have dedicated people in dedicated roles. Someone like McCurry works with many organisations and is constantly learning about his area of expertise and imparting it to organisations that he works with. Russell cannot be doing two roles efficiently, could be due to soft cap restrictions, comes down to what you value.
- Suggestions for Teague  - Try one or two things different this week to get players engaged and stimulated, e.g Get players to focus on the red time scores and what they can do to stop it happening. Stk and Ratten did it to stop runs of goals by getting Membrey to push back deep to the goal line, Higgins played higher up the ground and got more possies and more shots on goal as a result.
Ill try and find the audio and post it.

Thanks GTC. Not sure I agree with the second point, but the others sound OK to me.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 08, 2021, 11:18:07 am
Thanks GTC. Not sure I agree with the second point, but the others sound OK to me.
The concerning one is the Russell doing dual roles.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: dodge on June 08, 2021, 11:25:24 am
I think there is a good chance you are correct, but time will tell.

Playing Devil's Advocate, would Barker stepped aside become a candidate for the replacement of Teague?

The article on the CFC website/Facebook suggests that Barker had effectively resigned at the end of the season - this is bringing it forward.  It also says he's leaving footy - doesn't sound as if the Devil's advocate is doing anything for the Devil!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 08, 2021, 11:28:31 am
The concerning one is the Russell doing dual roles.

Yes, that's not ideal, but was that pre covid and post covid, or just post ?

At any rate, I think the players should be allowed to give honest feedback, about the coach or anything else. If the process is conducted properly, they would investigate the allegations and get to the bottom of them, rather than just simply taking them at face value. If the players can't speak freely in a review, then it's somewhat pointless IMO.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Shakin77 on June 08, 2021, 11:29:53 am
Thanks GTC. Not sure I agree with the second point, but the others sound OK to me.

Agree.   Sounds like a sacked ex-coach that had players who didn't like his direction and went over his head.    Salty.

No one is infallible and you would hope that the senior player speak for the playing group.

I would be interested in what players that have come from successful sides like Fogarty, Betts and even Pittonet think of our set up.     Cripps and Docherty have never played in a successful side.

Barker would have read the tea leaves.    11 odd year with no success.   He was an easy kill
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 11:38:44 am
Barker would have read the tea leaves.    11 odd year with no success.  He was an easy kill
That assumes he was a kill, and not a voluntary departure as is stated.

Perhaps the thing he reads are further pending hub style competitions and he might not be willing to do that, if so he won't be on his lonesome, there will be other coaches and some players who opt if this happens again!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 08, 2021, 11:38:52 am
Yes, that's not ideal, but was that pre covid and post covid, or just post ?

At any rate, I think the players should be allowed to give honest feedback, about the coach or anything else. If the process is conducted properly, they would investigate the allegations and get to the bottom of them, rather than just simply taking them at face value. If the players can't speak freely in a review, then it's somewhat pointless IMO.
No argument from me, I was merely stating what Leppa said he would do. If you cant get feedback from the coalface, where do you get it from? These forums?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Shakin77 on June 08, 2021, 11:40:25 am
That assumes he was a kill, and not a voluntary departure as is stated.

Perhaps the thing he reads are further pending hub style competitions and he might not be willing to do that, if so he won't be on his lonesome, there will be other coaches and some players who opt if this happens again!

Timing is too neat for mine.   Went before he was pushed.   Either way.    Same result.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 11:41:54 am
The article on the CFC website/Facebook suggests that Barker had effectively resigned at the end of the season - this is bringing it forward.  It also says he's leaving footy - doesn't sound as if the Devil's advocate is doing anything for the Devil!
We can't discuss this much in the short term, it requires some time to pass before we can judge.

But the bring it forward bit is perhaps a tell, as discussed earlier, but his departure doesn't mean he was tapped on the shoulder either as I discussed elsewhere, it's just speculation.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: madbluboy on June 08, 2021, 11:42:36 am
In the article it states to "Start in coming weeks", on the TV I've seen Caro state twice that it's to start "At the end of the season"

So I'm calling bullcrap story!

All clubs review football and executive performance at the end of each season.

Wrong
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 11:45:11 am
Timing is too neat for mine.  Went before he was pushed.  Either way.    Same result.
Same result for the club going forward, but the reasons behind it can be vastly different. You can imagine now what reasons someone like Caro or Flubbo will deliver, versus someone like Barker or Liddle.

I nice question to be answered in the future will be, in two or three months do we see Barker in the media doing a SOS?

PS; Look for commentary in the AFL Media, particularly the old boys network from the likes of Lyon, Jab Snr, Darcy, King, supporting Barker and claiming he's been harshly dealt with.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 08, 2021, 11:45:34 am
Wrong
Yep, announced by the club officially.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 11:47:25 am
Wrong
Well I presume it can't be the claim about Caro's contradiction that is wrong because that is on Dots video, and unless it's been revised in the edit it's in the original article. Season's End versus Coming Weeks, Caro can't be right on both, she does this all the time then retrospectively quotes the instance that was correct! That is bullcrap reporting.

So I assume you're claiming AFL club's do not review football and executive performance at the end of each season? :o
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 08, 2021, 11:48:46 am
Next game will be interesting. We are going to give GWS the mother of all floggings, or just go through the motions with all this and copping a big flogging.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 08, 2021, 11:52:37 am
Next game will be interesting. We are going to give GWS the mother of all floggings, or just go through the motions with all this and copping a big flogging.
Most of the vision shown post our games for the last 8 or 9 weeks doesn't lie. Our players aren't free of blame by any stretch and have cost a good man (to date) his job. I hope they consider this when they next run out with a navy blue jumper with a white CFC on the front.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 08, 2021, 11:54:16 am
Timing is too neat for mine.   Went before he was pushed.   Either way.    Same result.

Yes, we won't ever know for sure, but if I was a betting man, I'd say the club flicked him and gave him the chance to exit with a little dignity, by saying he resigned.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Shakin77 on June 08, 2021, 11:59:41 am
Who was behind the decision to appoint Teague? 
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 08, 2021, 12:00:59 pm
Wrong

I think we might be talking about different types of "review." No doubt all clubs review the season once it ends, but this review, at least as discussed, is more like the Richmond / Collingwood "significant" reviews of recent years.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 08, 2021, 12:03:06 pm
Who was behind the decision to appoint Teague? 

The selection panel comprised Judd, Lloyd, Liddle, LoGiudice and David Campbell.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Milhanna13 on June 08, 2021, 12:21:42 pm

https://www.afl.com.au/news/603306/carlton-president-mark-logiudice-reveals-hes-stepping-down-luke-sayers-to-replace-him/amp

A bit of background on the president elect. I heard Caro saying he is an auditor and a hard taskmaster - FWIW

Just in terms of the reported comments from players: anyone following AFL has repeatedly asked
1. What's the game plan?
2. Why that selection?
The only other equally obvious question is 3. Why are blokes continually played out of position?

Go figure. I'm at a loss to understand our goals. I guess that says it all really. When long term members have no idea of the club's direction/brand, there's probably a chink in the armor.




CEO of PWC would be a prck of a job, and one that would require a lot of backroom "negotiating".  Reporting to 100 or so Partners who all think they know better than you.  Hes a pretty impressive guy.  Hopefully he can bring some corporate structure to all aspects of the club
Title: Re: Review
Post by: northernblue on June 08, 2021, 12:29:07 pm
I agree lods.

It smacks of disunity - "you guys are the problem, we're doing fine." Well guess what ? Who signs off on the coaches, players etc. Who signed up Malthouse ? Who signed off on the mother of all rebuilds ?  Who signs off on all the sackings ? Who still gets dictated to by the Pratt / Mathieson factions ?

Part of the findings may well be people stepping out of their job descriptions… I hope !
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 12:48:17 pm
I've heard PWC value their staff very little, they are treated like a million monkeys banging away at typewriters, and if one drops dead they wheel in another, AFL players and coaches are not so easily replaced!

Also, be careful what you ask for, will Sayer's emphasis be corporate or football, do not assume your desires are 100% aligned with his desires!

Many in football think profit and economics drive on field success, while others claim on field success drives profit, the football chicken and egg debate.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 08, 2021, 01:09:11 pm
The selection panel comprised Judd, Lloyd, Liddle, LoGiudice and David Campbell.

I think with Judd's public comments he wasnt complicit in that appointment.  He wouldnt have shot his mouth of regarding training wheels if he was an advocate of hiring Teague.

It sounds like someone appointed Teague despite the feedback the others might have given in retrospect.

Even so, this is coach and season killing stuff.  We are about to find out a lot about David Teague and his ability to coach a club.

We are undoubtedly the hardest coaching job in the AFL IMHO.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: spf on June 08, 2021, 01:28:25 pm
Come on Shawny and SPF you’re quoting the Cairns news ffs and rehashing rumours that Sayers beat up Dan Andrews :(  from the article you just posted spf, you fully believe this bullcrap? Christ.

The Facebookers allege Andrews is fighting a rape charge in court, under the radar naturally, for a dalliance with one of Lindsay Fox’s grand-daughters aged 17.  In return Andrews is said to be prosecuting his assailants for bashing him senseless over the alleged rape.

I didn't suggest I believed anything. I just found this online in a search and posted it. That was it. By the way screw you.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 01:43:39 pm
I didn't suggest I believed anything. I just found this online in a search and posted it. That was it. By the way screw you.
The tell of bullcrap is that the initial claim and story was that it was somebody else who did the pushing. The name of the alleged assailant has changed more than once. It's like they are doing what online marketing calls A-B testing, publishing two or more versions to see which one grabs the most attention.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Hubba on June 08, 2021, 01:45:46 pm

We are undoubtedly the hardest coaching job in the AFL IMHO.


Why would we be any harder than Essendon ?  Similar history and expectation.
or Gold Coast and GWS who have big names leave to go home every year and little to no members?

Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 01:48:02 pm
Why would we be any harder than Essendon ?  Similar history and expectation.
or Gold Coast and GWS who have big names leave to go home every year and little to no members?
CheatsFC have a heavily pro-CheatsFC AFL Media, we are their natural enemy.

GC and GWS have almost no media scrutiny in their local environment, they are barely recognised in the street.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LoveNavy on June 08, 2021, 02:11:49 pm
Why would we be any harder than Essendon ?  Similar history and expectation.
or Gold Coast and GWS who have big names leave to go home every year and little to no members?



Woosha might have some interesting views on the Dons comparison. I just hope we're getting good value from his appointment.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 02:12:39 pm
Woosha might have some interesting views on the Dons comparison. I just hope we're getting good value from his appointment.
 Maybe what we are seeing is the start of Woosha's influence.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: madbluboy on June 08, 2021, 02:16:19 pm
Caro reporting that the reason we seem to be in a hurry is because we want to get moving before the pies sack Buckley so we can secure Clarko first.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 08, 2021, 02:18:20 pm
Caro reporting that the reason we seem to be in a hurry is because we want to get moving before the pies sack Buckley so we can secure Clarko first.
Or Ross Lyon
Title: Re: Review
Post by: WASurfer on June 08, 2021, 02:31:37 pm
Would be interested to gauge opinions.....IF....and only asking the question here.....if Teague was moved on, in all honesty, what are the coaching options available to us? We surely don't go down the path of an untried senior coach again? You would only move Teague on if there's a better option.....outside of Clarkson or Lyon, who would we seriously consider? Is Brad Scott one that would be on the list?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 08, 2021, 02:40:48 pm
Would be interested to gauge opinions.....IF....and only asking the question here.....if Teague was moved on, in all honesty, what are the coaching options available to us? We surely don't go down the path of an untried senior coach again? You would only move Teague on if there's a better option.....outside of Clarkson or Lyon, who would we seriously consider? Is Brad Scott one that would be on the list?

That's been tried before - starting with Parkin through to Bolton, we have oscillated between young buck and old fart with resounding success. Parkin, Brittain, Pagan, Ratten, Malthouse, Bolton. Teague breaks the trend, but not for long it seems lol.

Bolton is a Clarkson mini me according to Jordan Lewis, and nobody liked the damage limitation style he employed. I watched Clarkson's presser after the Blues Hawks game. Obviously taking a sneaky cheap shot at Teague, he said something like "putting speed on the ball is good if you have composure, but if you don't, it's a problem" (I don't remember the exact words). How much composure do we have ? Close to zero. Therefore Clarkson will play just like the Hawks do now and just like Bolton did. And so for that matter will Lyon IMHO.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 02:53:54 pm
Would be interested to gauge opinions.....IF....and only asking the question here.....if Teague was moved on, in all honesty, what are the coaching options available to us? We surely don't go down the path of an untried senior coach again? You would only move Teague on if there's a better option.....outside of Clarkson or Lyon, who would we seriously consider? Is Brad Scott one that would be on the list?
Lyon isn't really an option, he is Malthouse like in that he's taken the same game plan to the different venues and built a list to suit, that would mean throwing out much of what we've got. Our list of skinnies does not suit a Lyon game plan and never will. But I suppose if you think what we've got is mostly worthless then maybe it's feasible we need another rebuild.

Clarkson is more likely to make use of what we've got, would it be better use of what we've got, that is hard to say. Would he have any real pull to change club culture, well Malthouse didn't why would Clarkson. The real drivers of change in the Dawks club culture was initially Ian Dicker, then Jason Dunstall as CEO who basically prevented Kennett from laying waste to all the progress!

Anyway, if it's a Clarkson or Lyon driving club culture, why do we even need that, it's that a matter for the Board and Executive?

Is changing the coach fundamentally the Board and Executive obfuscating responsibility for cultural change? I'd suggest what Dicker and Dunstall did at the Dawks was the exact opposite, they could have folded under Kennett's pressure and Clarkson might have been kyboshed, it was sticking the coarse under those pressures that got the Dawks where they wanted to be!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 08, 2021, 03:00:01 pm
Would be interested to gauge opinions.....IF....and only asking the question here.....if Teague was moved on, in all honesty, what are the coaching options available to us? We surely don't go down the path of an untried senior coach again? You would only move Teague on if there's a better option.....outside of Clarkson or Lyon, who would we seriously consider? Is Brad Scott one that would be on the list?
To reiterate, if they knife Teague I'm done.
Candidates
Hardwick - Yes (employed but we must ask the question with an intent to make a serious play)
Clarkson - Yes with the aim to groom a young assistant
Lyon - Yes with the aim to groom a young assistant
B Scott - No, seems to have checked out of coaching but is the right type of "kent" our group needs IMO
Worsfold - No (although seems to have proven he can hand over to young bloke who is having an impact)
Leppa - No but as an assistant or Footy Manager Yes
Voss - No but as an assistant or Footy Manager Yes
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 08, 2021, 03:00:05 pm
I think Ross is more a re-stump, re-wire, re-plumb kind of guy lol. No rebuilds for him.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: dodge on June 08, 2021, 04:14:53 pm
To copy what has been done before is not the answer ie:

 - Don't copy our last 20 years - it's broke, doesn't work
 - Don't copy anything before the last 20 years - times have changed
 - Don't copy others - once we do that we are behind, as they have already moved on to greater things (which we may have done as per Sydney and Roos in appointing Teague) - we also talk about the Geelong and Richmond reviews particularly.
 - Do tweak other models, put them in our context - use experiences gained.  Keep Teague, get him the help he needs - preferably someone experienced who knows how to win.  Let Teague work on his strengths and someone help back him up with his weaknesses.  IF we back our coach properly, that will build confidence.  Sayers was on the board that appointed Teague.  Back him.  Don't listen to us plebs, we have no idea what's really going on (but we care).
 - Don't listen to uninvited rumour and innuendo.  Pick carefully who to chat with.
 - Be honest about our list and expectations for the rest of the season.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on June 08, 2021, 04:15:25 pm
'Choco' Williams ??
Title: Re: Review
Post by: WASurfer on June 08, 2021, 04:18:10 pm
Dodge....that's how I see it playing out. Teague to be retained as senior coach but the rest of the coaching panel/footy department to be revamped completely.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on June 08, 2021, 04:24:57 pm
If we do keep Teague we have to provide him with the best support we possibly can , including a senior adviser (not one who lives on the other side of the country.)
We also need to guarantee him at least a full two years with no question of replacing him....because a poor start to 2022 and we'd be back here again.
Members and supporters would need to be told that was the plan, and to get on board.

But let's see what the review throws up.
The player interaction is what interests me.
There are obvious issues there...but how deep and far reaching are any divisions.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on June 08, 2021, 04:32:30 pm
Dodge....that's how I see it playing out. Teague to be retained as senior coach but the rest of the coaching panel/footy department to be revamped completely.

Same @WASurfer .... too much bl00dy groupthink.  Stamp the authority now.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: tonyo on June 08, 2021, 04:32:47 pm
Dodge....that's how I see it playing out. Teague to be retained as senior coach but the rest of the coaching panel/footy department to be revamped completely.
The two blueprint 'reviews' are Geelong in 2006, and Richmond in 2016.  On both occasions, a coach with middle-of-the-road performance to that point was retained, and in both cases it led to successful eras. 

I don't want to see Teague go either - but he clearly needs a better, more strategic group around him. 

I honestly think we are not that far off jumping up the ladder big time. 

But in words that are generally attributed to Einstein - 'the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result'.  So things must change for us to get better - hence the review.

As a bonus, we have 10 more games of relatively minimal consequence to work out who really wants to be in Navy Blue, and who can play where.

So 2022 starts against the Giants in 2 weeks time.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 04:39:31 pm
Fans think this "review" is leading to some sort of instant renaissance, nothing could be further from the truth.

Unfortunately for Teague, based on the timing, I suspect you likely find players like Cripps and BigH along with anybody else with the inkling of injury,  maybe Williams, Saad and Martin, being packaged up fairly soon and sent off for repairs and renovations to be ready prior to the next pre-season.

Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 08, 2021, 05:09:03 pm
To reiterate, if they knife Teague I'm done.
Candidates
Hardwick - Yes (employed but we must ask the question with an intent to make a serious play)
Clarkson - Yes with the aim to groom a young assistant
Lyon - Yes with the aim to groom a young assistant
B Scott - No, seems to have checked out of coaching but is the right type of "kent" our group needs IMO
Worsfold - No (although seems to have proven he can hand over to young bloke who is having an impact)
Leppa - No but as an assistant or Footy Manager Yes
Voss - No but as an assistant or Footy Manager Yes
I think if one of Hardwick or Clarkson says yes then Teague is finished. Collingwood are in the same boat and it could be a race to entice one of those two to either club and I think thats where we are at now.
Clarkson is finished at Hawthorn and Dimma has bonked his way into trouble at Tigerland and probably needs a fresh start.
IMHO we will only make the change if its seen as replacing Teague with the best in the comp.
The members/supporters will buy it if its a big name coach to replace Teague and Liddle/Lloyd will still have their jobs.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: WASurfer on June 08, 2021, 05:13:51 pm
EB....I can't see Hardwick moving anywhere in the short term. If anyone does, it'll likely be Clarkson who'll see his race run at Hawthorn....especially if he and the club see Sam Mitchell as the heir apparent and ready to go (those famous words!). I guess then it would be up to Clarkson as to where he sees the best fit for himself, the best list for him to work with etc.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 08, 2021, 05:19:18 pm
Caro reporting that the reason we seem to be in a hurry is because we want to get moving before the pies sack Buckley so we can secure Clarko first.

Of course.

We did the same thing when we sacked Ratten and appointed Malthouse.

Meanwhile, if we are going to move on Teague, the only other senior coach with previous experience worth looking at is Michael Voss.

He would be a much better coach today and Id back him to be much more worthwhile looking at than any other candidate.

Why would we be any harder than Essendon ?  Similar history and expectation.
or Gold Coast and GWS who have big names leave to go home every year and little to no members?



Essendon have had much more stability in their senior coaching roles, and are the darlings of the AFL thanks to Sheedy and his multitude of blockbuster games.  From Anzac day, to dreamtime, to the country game, to any other gimmicky crap you can hang your hat on, EFC have credits in the bank, and have done a lot for the game.

The fans arent so willing to knife their coach at a moments notice either.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 08, 2021, 05:24:46 pm
Two things:
1. Just get some bloody decent assistants in a move on.
2. Who ever doesnt want to buy in with what Teague and the new team are selling, request a trade and move them on. Dont care if you are Cripps. Murphy or Cottrell.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 08, 2021, 05:28:08 pm
Of course.

We did the same thing when we sacked Ratten and appointed Malthouse.

Meanwhile, if we are going to move on Teague, the only other senior coach with previous experience worth looking at is Michael Voss.

Don't want to go near a failed coach. Let someone else find out if he is better or not.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 08, 2021, 05:31:47 pm
Two things:
1. Just get some bloody decent assistants in a move on.
2. Who ever doesnt want to buy in with what Teague and the new team are selling, request a trade and move them on. Dont care if you are Cripps. Murphy or Cottrell.

That's what I am thinking.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on June 08, 2021, 05:32:43 pm
To copy what has been done before is not the answer ie:

 - Don't copy our last 20 years - it's broke, doesn't work
 - Don't copy anything before the last 20 years - times have changed
 - Don't copy others - once we do that we are behind, as they have already moved on to greater things (which we may have done as per Sydney and Roos in appointing Teague) - we also talk about the Geelong and Richmond reviews particularly.
 - Do tweak other models, put them in our context - use experiences gained.  Keep Teague, get him the help he needs - preferably someone experienced who knows how to win.  Let Teague work on his strengths and someone help back him up with his weaknesses.  IF we back our coach properly, that will build confidence.  Sayers was on the board that appointed Teague.  Back him.  Don't listen to us plebs, we have no idea what's really going on (but we care). What if the review finds that The TT is a stubborn prck who has a lopsided game plan that's caused all the strife we're in - too focussed on offense?
 - Don't listen to uninvited rumour and innuendo.  Pick carefully who to chat with.
 - Be honest about our list and expectations for the rest of the season.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 08, 2021, 05:39:55 pm
EB....I can't see Hardwick moving anywhere in the short term. If anyone does, it'll likely be Clarkson who'll see his race run at Hawthorn....especially if he and the club see Sam Mitchell as the heir apparent and ready to go (those famous words!). I guess then it would be up to Clarkson as to where he sees the best fit for himself, the best list for him to work with etc.
Surfie...Clarkson would be the favourite as he would be at Collingwood...Mitchell will be the new coach at Hawthorn next season IMO and Clarko has the luxury now of watching the two big Melbourne teams fight it out for his services while his manager keeps adding zero's to the contract..
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 08, 2021, 06:07:20 pm
Surfie...Clarkson would be the favourite as he would be at Collingwood...Mitchell will be the new coach at Hawthorn next season IMO and Clarko has the luxury now of watching the two big Melbourne teams fight it out for his services while his manager keeps adding zero's to the contract..

Heard Ian Aikten wants to be his assistant....lol.

An insider than runs a Carlton Facebooks page has just said Teague wants to resign. He gets good information and mingles very often with insiders. In discussions with the club.

Of course that is still rumour until it is fact but I thought I would pass it on.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 08, 2021, 06:07:49 pm
To reiterate, if they knife Teague I'm done.

Two things:
1. Just get some bloody decent assistants in a move on.
2. Who ever doesnt want to buy in with what Teague and the new team are selling, request a trade and move them on. Dont care if you are Cripps. Murphy or Cottrell.

Yes, yes and yes.

I said it only a few days ago, as long as the club doesn't implode, we will be ok....THIS year.
Club: Hold my beer.
*facepalm*
Title: Re: Review
Post by: 31Tommys_barber on June 08, 2021, 06:12:52 pm
Be ironic to see Clarkson in charge of the Carlton team as our players were once told not to let him walk from the ground in one infamous game.
Don’t want him even if he WAS the best ,his day done or his team and tactics wouldn’t be 17th
Also I hold a grudge against pricks who have done us wrong, even from 1987
Lyon same his day done need the next Clarkson or Hardwick type and that could be Teague with a chance.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: WASurfer on June 08, 2021, 06:19:29 pm
Lol Tommy's Barber....I used to hate Greg Williams with a passion when he was at Sydney and hated him even more when he caved Rhys-Jones' face in....but grew to love him pretty quick when he came to play for us.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 08, 2021, 06:29:19 pm
Be ironic to see Clarkson in charge of the Carlton team as our players were once told not to let him walk from the ground in one infamous game.
Don’t want him even if he WAS the best ,his day done or his team and tactics wouldn’t be 17th
Also I hold a grudge against pricks who have done us wrong, even from 1987
Lyon same his day done need the next Clarkson or Hardwick type and that could be Teague with a chance.
How will the princesses go with his no long sleeves policy?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on June 08, 2021, 06:38:32 pm
Voss?  No effin' way.  Arrogant and a proven failure.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 08, 2021, 06:49:20 pm
I heard Sam Edmund this morning on SEN, he suggested that the review may have started months ago and that all this external review stuff is merely window dressing.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 08, 2021, 06:53:07 pm
I heard Sam Edmund this morning on SEN, he suggested that the review may have started months ago and that all this external review stuff is merely window dressing.

Which is even worse.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Blue Moon on June 08, 2021, 07:19:20 pm
I agree with what Rhys-Jones has had to say. Off the field we are going well on field we are losing because of the losing culture we have had now for twenty years. The worst thing Elliot did, and there were many, was instill the belief that we could only win if we cheat. This is why the tanking was actually corrosive for the Club's culture even though getting Judd was enormous. Winners win because they win and losers lose because they lose. We need to become winners again and if this review can show us a pathway to achieving this, then well and good, however if this review isn't going to send us back to bad old ways of looking for a Messiah, then we are in trouble. We have had two coaching Messiahs, Pagan and Malthouse, and that ended disastrously, and one playing Messiah, Judd, who wasn't able to carry us to where we wanted to go. Mark Maclure called it early by saying we don't play as a team and by saying the improvement has to be player driven. Nothing has changed. Changing the Coach hasn't worked for twenty years, maybe it is time to change the culture.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: cookie2 on June 08, 2021, 07:25:56 pm
We are a total mess after years of futility and I am depressed. That is my bottom line atm and I just can't be arsed to offer further analysis.  Sorry guys.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: townsendcalling on June 08, 2021, 07:39:39 pm
First job, get Mark Murphy in and tell him he’s not required next year. Second, tell him we are focusing on youth, but he will make 300 games. Thirdly, prior to his 300th game, he will announce it will be his last and retire straight after the match. Face saving for all concerned.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on June 08, 2021, 07:47:56 pm
Think I'll retire the CFC guernsey for the moment and pull on my LS Test jumper.  Might need it with the polar blast coming.







Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on June 08, 2021, 07:57:13 pm
First job, get Mark Murphy in and tell him he’s not required next year. Second, tell him we are focusing on youth, but he will make 300 games. Thirdly, prior to his 300th game, he will announce it will be his last and retire straight after the match. Face saving for all concerned.

Percy Jones was left stranded on 249. McClure 243.  Why gift Murphy?  Doesn't deserve it.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 08, 2021, 08:04:50 pm
Again assuming Teague moves on, how about D Harford as a dark horse?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 08, 2021, 08:22:24 pm
Again assuming Teague moves on, how about D Harford as a dark horse?
At the expense of the womens side? Lets not ruin the entire club at once.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Macca37 on June 08, 2021, 08:29:29 pm
On Facebook

BREAKING;

Harry McKay's management will deal exclusively with @CarltonFC despite outside interest.

While terms & tenure are yet to be thrashed out, a 3-year deal worth up to $3 million would take him through to free agency
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 08, 2021, 08:36:58 pm
Again assuming Teague moves on, how about D Harford as a dark horse?
They will only move Teague on for a big name IMHO.....Clarko, Dimma or maybe Lyon as a distant 3rd choice.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 08, 2021, 08:45:48 pm
They will only move Teague on for a big name IMHO.....Clarko, Dimma or maybe Lyon as a distant 3rd choice.

How about option D.

Paul Roos.

Melbourne are flavour of the month now....who kickstarted that? Roos.
Who was offered the job but turned it down when we were sacking Ratten? Roos.
Who then changed his mind and said he'd do the job after we'd agreed to terms with Malthouse? Roos.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 08, 2021, 08:47:54 pm
Out of the Mercury. As a Murdoch paper assume it is in the Herald Sun as well. Paywall of course. Bit at odds with my previous post but here it is.

"LATEST: As @CarltonFC launches a sweeping review of its operations, Mark LoGiudice has backed David Teague to be coach in 2022 & was emphatic the mid-year review is not a mandate on the coach.

“This is not a review of the coach, this is a review of the football department."

LoGiudice: "It’s not a coaching review. Everyone's making this out to be about David Teague, that it’s a panic, believe me we're very calm & measured about the way this is going to get done.

David Teague's coached 39 games, he's the coach & he's contracted for next year."

LoGiudice: “We're not in denial, we’ve got to do what’s in the best interests of @CarltonFC at all times.

We're going to do a review because we're not winning games & if you’re not, you don’t make finals & if you don’t make finals, you don’t win premierships."

LoGiudice: “We'll have the review, we'll review the recommendations & make decisions accordingly. This (review) is very measured, there’s no panic here, I promise you.’’

The Blues are hoping to announce who will be part of the independent review by the end of the week."

Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 08, 2021, 08:57:06 pm
The Blues are hoping to announce who will be part of the independent review by the end of the week."

So the review has already started.
The people doing the review haven't been picked yet.
The review has actually been going on for months.

Teague is dead man walking.
Teague will coach out the season.
Teague will coach 2022.


THIS is whats been reported in the last 24 hours.
THIS is why you don't make the review public.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 08, 2021, 09:09:34 pm
So the review has already started.
The people doing the review haven't been picked yet.
The review has actually been going on for months.

Teague is dead man walking.
Teague will coach out the season.
Teague will coach 2022.


THIS is whats been reported in the last 24 hours.
THIS is why you don't make the review public.
We should take bets on which one is right...lol.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 08, 2021, 09:15:02 pm
How about option D.

Paul Roos.

Melbourne are flavour of the month now....who kickstarted that? Roos.
Who was offered the job but turned it down when we were sacking Ratten? Roos.
Who then changed his mind and said he'd do the job after we'd agreed to terms with Malthouse? Roos.

Roos like his coin and all the glory but not the responsibility, could see him as a coaching Director but not as the coach.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 08, 2021, 09:15:59 pm
Roos like his coin and all the glory but not the responsibility, could see him as a coaching Director but not as the coach.
Same setup as the Dees....coach and train up hand picked replacement.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 08, 2021, 09:16:54 pm
We should take bets on which one is right...lol.
Every coach is a dead man walking in the AFL...its more about when than if....
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 08, 2021, 09:18:22 pm
Same setup as the Dees....coach and train up hand picked replacement.
Who is your handpicked replacement.....Would we do another training wheel coach?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 08, 2021, 09:20:51 pm
Who is your handpicked replacement.....Would we do another training wheel coach?

That person is picked in consulatation with Roos.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 08, 2021, 09:40:53 pm
The Judge  reckons its not a coaching review and Teague is contracted to coach next year.

Carlton president Mark LoGiudice speaks out amid club’s sweeping review
As Carlton launches a sweeping review of its operations, president Mark LoGiudice has backed David Teague to be coach next year.
Mark Robinson
,
Scott Gullan
 and
Nick Smart
8 min read
June 8, 2021 - 9:16PM

Carlton president Mark LoGiudice is emphatic the mid-year review is not a mandate on coach David Teague.

“I want to be very categoric here, this is not a review of the coach, this is a review of the football department,” LoGiudice said on Tuesday.

“It’s not a coaching review.

“Everyone is making this out to be about David Teague, that it’s a panic, believe me we are very calm and measured about the way this is going to get done.

“David Teague has coached 39 games, he is the coach and he is contracted for next year.’’


The Blues officially announced on Monday they had brought forward an end-of-season review in the wake of successive losses to Sydney and West Coast.

The external probe will examine every facet of the football department — coaching, development, list management, fitness, performance and, importantly, the culture and environment.


Carlton veteran Eddie Betts said on Tuesday night that Teague did not deserve to have all the criticism for the Blues’ woes levelled at him.

“I think that’s unfair,” Betts said on Fox Footy’s AFL360.

“I guess we, as players, need to take some responsibility as well because we’re out there playing footy and we wouldn’t be in this position if we won those games that were close.

“We showed we can play a great brand of footy and we’ve shown we can play some awful footy as well.

“We want to get better, but putting it all on David is very unfair to him.

“We’re in this together, so the onus needs to be on the players as well.”

When asked if he was surprised to learn of the Blues’ mid-season review this week, Betts replied: “A little bit … but I guess every good organisation needs to keep itself accountable and needs to strive to get better and we want to do that and get better as a football club.”

“As players we want to play better footy and as an organisation we want to do better.

“I think it came at the right time with the mid-season bye, so we’ll look forward to it.”

It comes as senior assistant coach John Barker departed the club in what many believe is the first casualty in a failing football department.

The Blues said the Barker decision was not part of the review because the review had not started.

Barker had told Teague and head of football Brad Lloyd on Monday he intended to stand down at the end of the season.

He citied the demands of the role, a dwindling drive to become a senior coach and the desire to spend more time with his family as reasons for leaving.

But, late on Monday night, Barker was informed that his impending resignation would be effective immediately — a decision that shocked the popular assistant.

Betts said he was upset to hear of long-time Blues assistant coach John Barker’s sudden departure from the club on Tuesday.

“It’s a bit sad and I knew him even back when I was at Carlton seven years ago,” he said.

“He’s a great friend of mine and it’s just pretty sad to see him go.

“I haven’t spoken to him just yet, but I’ll reach out during the week to see how he’s going and to and to wish him well.”

The prevailing view is there will be a clean-out of assistants at the end of the season and second-year coach Teague will remain in charge.

Asked if he anticipated vast change in the football department, LoGiudice said: “We are not in denial, we’ve got to do what’s in the best interests of the Carlton Football Club at all times.

“We are going to do a review because we are not winning games of footy and if you’re not winning games of footy, you don’t make finals and if you don’t make finals, you don’t win premierships.

“We will have the review, we will review the recommendations and make decisions accordingly.

“This (review) is very measured, there’s no panic here, I promise you.’’

The Blues are hoping to announce who will be part of the independent review — which will answer to board member and incoming president Luke Sayers — by the end of the week.

The Blues are 4-8 and in 14th position, equal on games won with Gold Coast and Adelaide.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 08, 2021, 09:53:03 pm
So if Teague didnt have a contract we would sack him like we just sacked Barker...
There is no panic... we are not waiting till the end of the season just doing it after losing a game we shouldnt have lost but dont panic there is no panic....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR0lOtdvqyg
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 08, 2021, 09:55:33 pm
Teague has coached 40 games. Come on Mark.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 08, 2021, 09:59:13 pm
Nice of the club to do the review, and heap all this pressure (but not pressure) on Teague soon after the loss of his mother in law too. Right after he's been shipped off to Sydney for a mini hub for a couple of weeks.

Who'd be a senior coach?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 08, 2021, 10:04:15 pm
Barker was sacked but wasnt part of the review as it hasnt started. But isnt/wasnt he part of the footy department? So the review has started...🤔
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 08, 2021, 10:11:10 pm
Barker was sacked but wasnt part of the review as it hasnt started. But isnt/wasnt he part of the footy department? So the review has started...🤔
Barker advised the club he was going at the end of the year, he brought it fwd Monday to immediate.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 08, 2021, 10:13:49 pm
Barker advised the club he was going at the end of the year, he brought it fwd Monday to immediate.
I hear you but..
Barker had told Teague and head of football Brad Lloyd on Monday he intended to stand down at the end of the season.

He citied the demands of the role, a dwindling drive to become a senior coach and the desire to spend more time with his family as reasons for leaving.

But, late on Monday night, Barker was informed that his impending resignation would be effective immediately — a decision that shocked the popular assistant.

I read that as the club brought it forward and fired him.....
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 08, 2021, 10:15:59 pm
I hear you but..
Barker had told Teague and head of football Brad Lloyd on Monday he intended to stand down at the end of the season.

He citied the demands of the role, a dwindling drive to become a senior coach and the desire to spend more time with his family as reasons for leaving.

But, late on Monday night, Barker was informed that his impending resignation would be effective immediately — a decision that shocked the popular assistant.

I read that as the club brought it forward and fired him.....
My bad, I thought he brought it fwd.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 08, 2021, 10:16:03 pm
Barker was sacked but wasnt part of the review as it hasnt started. But isnt/wasnt he part of the footy department? So the review has started...🤔
Those responsible for the sacking....have now been sacked.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 08, 2021, 10:24:50 pm
Those responsible for the sacking....have now been sacked.
Nothing like a bit of blood in the coaches box, its the Carlton way, my mistake.. Barker wasnt sacked he was Purged..
Title: Re: Review
Post by: northernblue on June 08, 2021, 11:07:54 pm
I guess the future will tell, maybe Barker has been the only thing holding the place together ?
I wish him well in his future.

Who exactly are our sitting selection committee ?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 08, 2021, 11:26:14 pm
I heard an interesting comment today that was supposedly made by an ex player (maybe Rhys), it was along the lines of:
Our blokes today are all nice blokes, you'd gladly let them into your house and marry your daughters.
Back in the day when we were successful, your wouldn't have let any of those blokes in your house.

Sellers said tonight as a footballer, the critic you will listen to most unconditionally is your team mate(s), not your coach. Once you lose the respect of your team mates, your finished. Our blokes clearly dont demand enough of one another.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Micky0 on June 08, 2021, 11:47:18 pm
A Melbourne supporter I work with said he could do the review in one sentence for us - players need to work harder and for each other.

Done.  Simples.

So are we backing that H FB story? Why hasn’t Cripps re-signed still? Surely you’d get that done this week if you wanted to show unity too!??!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 08, 2021, 11:47:38 pm
From B70 on BF re who is in the mix for the external review:

Stephen Gough,Geoff Walsh and Pavlich in the mix ..
Title: Re: Review
Post by: northernblue on June 09, 2021, 07:06:53 am
From B70 on BF re who is in the mix for the external review:

Stephen Gough,Geoff Walsh and Pavlich in the mix ..

PAVLICH !!!
 We finally get our man !!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 09, 2021, 07:50:05 am
I heard an interesting comment today that was supposedly made by an ex player (maybe Rhys), it was along the lines of:
Our blokes today are all nice blokes, you'd gladly let them into your house and marry your daughters.
Back in the day when we were successful, your wouldn't have let any of those blokes in your house.

Sellers said tonight as a footballer, the critic you will listen to most unconditionally is your team mate(s), not your coach. Once you lose the respect of your team mates, your finished. Our blokes clearly dont demand enough of one another.

This isn't a shot at you GTC, but most footballers these days are nice. Back in the day you wouldn't let players from any team into your house.

Sellers is a goose. If your team mates are here today gone tomorrow, how can you build any kind of relationship, any kind of synergy ? If you have a losing mindset, how hard is that to break ? If you have a club that is trigger happy across all aspects of the football department, how can you give 100% to footy when you're constantly looking over your shoulder ?

Our players are not soft, they are not overpaid fat cats who are just chasing big contracts. Players have been coming to us for fat contracts and brown paper bags since the 60's. Our blokes have lost the winning habit, and have been witness to far too much instability and uncertainty, far too much list turnover, far to much coach turnover, which is why they play the way they do.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Professer E on June 09, 2021, 07:50:46 am
I know the AFL plays puppet master a lot
- maybe it's time for the faceless men to step in and cut is a break.... Maybe a mob like collingwood can be told,  hey,  you've got cap issues, don't ring Hemisphere,  back the F off.     Because we are a wounded zebra surrounded by predators ATM and if the predators get their way the club will be gutted and kicked all the way back to 2001/2.  And if the AFL think that's good for the game then they are clueless. How much are they already propping up some clubs.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 09, 2021, 08:00:21 am
This isn't a shot at you GTC, but most footballers these days are nice. Back in the day you wouldn't let players from any team into your house.

Sellers is a goose. If your team mates are here today gone tomorrow, how can you build any kind of relationship, any kind of synergy ? If you have a losing mindset, how hard is that to break ? If you have a club that is trigger happy across all aspects of the football department, how can you give 100% to footy when you're constantly looking over your shoulder ?

Our players are not soft, they are not overpaid fat cats who are just chasing big contracts. Players have been coming to us for fat contracts and brown paper bags since the 60's. Our blokes have lost the winning habit, and have been witness to far too much instability and uncertainty, far too much list turnover, far to much coach turnover, which is why they play the way they do.
Yes, based on history our club doesn't get it, many fans don't get it.

They think footy is like working in Jack Elliott's era, The Wolf of Wall St model, where you just hire and fire until you find a Clark Kent as big as you who can get the job done at minimal cost and high profit.

Fans are completely wrong if they think a coach change in modern football is a flick of a switch, it's the exact opposite. In modern football a coach and list overhaul automatically consigns your club to another 5 to 7 years of rebuilding / team building. Another generation of talent thoroughly wasted.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 09, 2021, 08:08:02 am
A Melbourne supporter I work with said he could do the review in one sentence for us - players need to work harder and for each other.

Done.  Simples.

So are we backing that H FB story? Why hasn’t Cripps re-signed still? Surely you’d get that done this week if you wanted to show unity too!??!
Article in HS says talks are underway and his manager is only dealing with us despite interest from other clubs. Make of that what you will.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 09, 2021, 08:21:42 am
Yes, based on history our club doesn't get it, many fans don't get it.

They think footy is like working in Jack Elliott's era, The Wolf of Wall St model, where you just hire and fire until you find a Clark Kent as big as you who can get the job done at minimal cost and high profit.

Fans are completely wrong if they think a coach change in modern football is a flick of a switch, it's the exact opposite. In modern football a coach and list overhaul automatically consigns your club to another 5 to 7 years of rebuilding / team building. Another generation of talent thoroughly wasted.

IMO, all very true.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Professer E on June 09, 2021, 08:28:18 am
GITC,  then I read a speculative article about the pies joining a "conga line of clubs lining up to talk about Harry".  Seriously, the pies have no coin,  need the points for Nick Daicos, it's clearly absolute bullsh1t...so why print it!?! The kind of  "journalism" the club needs to take outside and have strong words with.    It's BS designed as part of the pile on to hurt the club and drag out more clicks and eyeballs.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 09, 2021, 09:09:00 am
This isn't a shot at you GTC, but most footballers these days are nice. Back in the day you wouldn't let players from any team into your house.

Sellers is a goose. If your team mates are here today gone tomorrow, how can you build any kind of relationship, any kind of synergy ? If you have a losing mindset, how hard is that to break ? If you have a club that is trigger happy across all aspects of the football department, how can you give 100% to footy when you're constantly looking over your shoulder ?

Our players are not soft, they are not overpaid fat cats who are just chasing big contracts. Players have been coming to us for fat contracts and brown paper bags since the 60's. Our blokes have lost the winning habit, and have been witness to far too much instability and uncertainty, far too much list turnover, far to much coach turnover, which is why they play the way they do.
Have to disagree Paul, some of our players are lazy, want to play bruise free footy, get paid big money and leave too much to the likes of a few players who carry the team every week. They are killing the coach and providing not much leadership for our young kids. It's not about belting blokes, drinking 40 cans of VB and coming home at 3pm in the morning before a game to show how cool and tough you are. We just have too many blokes who don't care enough about what they are doing and it's frustrating. Sellers is a neanderthal stuck in the past but he did care about what happened on a Saturday afternoon and wouldn't have tolerated what our blokes dish up in terms of soft lazy disinterested football. Stkilda players are doing the same to Ratten....
Title: Re: Review
Post by: rocky on June 09, 2021, 09:13:57 am
Have to disagree Paul, some of our players are lazy, want to play bruise free footy, get paid big money and leave too much to the likes of a few players who carry the team every week. They are killing the coach and providing not much leadership for our young kids. It's not about belting blokes, drinking 40 cans of VB and coming home at 3pm in the morning before a game to show how cool and tough you are. We just have too many blokes who don't care enough about what they are doing and it's frustrating. Sellers is a neanderthal stuck in the past but he did care about what happened on a Saturday afternoon and wouldn't have tolerated what our blokes dish up in terms of soft lazy disinterested football. Stkilda players are doing the same to Ratten....
Agree with most of that EB except the last bit. Think the aints are showing more endeavour and heart than we are at the moment. But for some diabolical kicking on the weekend they would've won in a canter. They will stitch us up again this year unless there is a dramatic change  at OUR end.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 09, 2021, 09:32:28 am
Have to disagree Paul, some of our players are lazy, want to play bruise free footy, get paid big money and leave too much to the likes of a few players who carry the team every week. They are killing the coach and providing not much leadership for our young kids. It's not about belting blokes, drinking 40 cans of VB and coming home at 3pm in the morning before a game to show how cool and tough you are. We just have too many blokes who don't care enough about what they are doing and it's frustrating. Sellers is a neanderthal stuck in the past but he did care about what happened on a Saturday afternoon and wouldn't have tolerated what our blokes dish up in terms of soft lazy disinterested football. Stkilda players are doing the same to Ratten....

Leaving aside St Kilda for the minute, I must respectfully disagree. These laments have been constant in all my 16+ years on these forums, across many several coaches and hundreds of list changes. I can't see how that would occur.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: DJC on June 09, 2021, 09:57:31 am
I hear you but..
Barker had told Teague and head of football Brad Lloyd on Monday he intended to stand down at the end of the season.

He citied the demands of the role, a dwindling drive to become a senior coach and the desire to spend more time with his family as reasons for leaving.

But, late on Monday night, Barker was informed that his impending resignation would be effective immediately — a decision that shocked the popular assistant.

I read that as the club brought it forward and fired him.....

Alternatively:

“Barker had recently approached the Club to inform them of his intention to step aside from AFL at the end of the season and focus on expanding his corporate interests and opportunities.

The Club held continued discussions with Barker and have since mutually decided that with the upcoming mid-season break, it would be an opportune time for Barker to depart the Club this week to enable the Club to plan for the future and allow Barker to actively pursue his next steps.“

A mutual decision would minimise Barker’s payout.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: townsendcalling on June 09, 2021, 10:24:47 am
Let's get Nathan Buckley as a Senior Assistant Coach!!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 09, 2021, 10:32:17 am
Agree with most of that EB except the last bit. Think the aints are showing more endeavour and heart than we are at the moment. But for some diabolical kicking on the weekend they would've won in a canter. They will stitch us up again this year unless there is a dramatic change  at OUR end.

Saints are having their moments but they have spent half their games embarrassing themselves. Hence why they have a percentage of 78%. We have shown more than them and that's saying something. Our losses are a bit over 20pts after being competitive, well, scoreboard-wise at least, there's have been by over 100pts, 70pts, 80 pts etc.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 09, 2021, 10:33:07 am
Leaving aside St Kilda for the minute, I must respectfully disagree. These laments have been constant in all my 16+ years on these forums, across many several coaches and hundreds of list changes. I can't see how that would occur.

Elwood is 100% right. Every part of his post.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 09, 2021, 10:33:23 am
Let's get Nathan Buckley as a Senior Assistant Coach!!
Could do worse.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 09, 2021, 10:34:44 am
I've heard The Aints are almost broke, they spent big at just the wrong time before COVID hit and are struggling financially. Our own club abolishing it's debt at just the right moment is a huge deal.

On the coaching issue, I think we need a JTurd type coach, that is a coach who isn't really the coach but the media front man, as JTurd was for BumberT!

Could FIGJAM fill that roll, be Teague's media front man?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 09, 2021, 10:36:46 am
Have to disagree Paul, some of our players are lazy, want to play bruise free footy, get paid big money and leave too much to the likes of a few players who carry the team every week. They are killing the coach and providing not much leadership for our young kids. It's not about belting blokes, drinking 40 cans of VB and coming home at 3pm in the morning before a game to show how cool and tough you are. We just have too many blokes who don't care enough about what they are doing and it's frustrating. Sellers is a neanderthal stuck in the past but he did care about what happened on a Saturday afternoon and wouldn't have tolerated what our blokes dish up in terms of soft lazy disinterested football. Stkilda players are doing the same to Ratten....

Yes, exactly. It's such a waste as we are so competitive still on the scoreboard but don't have the care to take that extra step to work hard enough to turn that into wins. Because of the scoreboard competitiveness it wouldn't take that much to change things. Just some intestinal fortitude to do that hard work. That is the most infuriating.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: WASurfer on June 09, 2021, 10:54:18 am
I reckon any sort of coaching position would be the last thing on Buckley's mind. Can't remember where I heard it but someone suggested he'll be doing special comments stuff for the footy on Channel 7 next year....might even be sooner.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 09, 2021, 11:14:41 am
I reckon any sort of coaching position would be the last thing on Buckley's mind. Can't remember where I heard it but someone suggested he'll be doing special comments stuff for the footy on Channel 7 next year....might even be sooner.

Tend to agree. He's been involved with football (and particularly the Pies) for most of the last 30? years. The time for a break is now IMO.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on June 09, 2021, 11:55:47 am
As much as I'm in favour of a review there is a fair bit of mixed messaging going on here.
Hopefully they sort it out, but it's a bit of a  dog's breakfast at the moment
It's quite confusing working out who is in charge, who's driving things, the scope and extent of any review and who is under scrutiny and who isn't.

I've always thought the 'rebuild' was a delaying tactic, a time buying exercise, to take the heat off a club under pressure.
By doing so they bought a couple of years free of criticism....because the expectations were low.

It may be a bit cynical but...Is the review just another one of these tactics to take the heat off for a bit...."Oh, we have a few problems but we're reviewing things so leave us alone for a while to sort it out."
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 09, 2021, 12:21:31 pm
As much as I'm in favour of a review there is a fair bit of mixed messaging going on here.
Hopefully they sort it out, but it's a bit of a  dog's breakfast at the moment
It's quite confusing working out who is in charge, who's driving things, the scope and extent of any review and who is under scrutiny and who isn't.

I've always thought the 'rebuild' was a delaying tactic, a time buying exercise, to take the heat off a club under pressure.
By doing so they bought a couple of years free of criticism....because the expectations were low.

It may be a bit cynical but...Is the review just another one of these tactics to take the heat off for a bit...."Oh, we have a few problems but we're reviewing things so leave us alone for a while to sort it out."

That would imply we are smart enough to work that bit out.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 09, 2021, 12:23:52 pm
As much as I'm in favour of a review there is a fair bit of mixed messaging going on here.
Hopefully they sort it out, but it's a bit of a  dog's breakfast at the moment
It's quite confusing working out who is in charge, who's driving things, the scope and extent of any review and who is under scrutiny and who isn't.

I've always thought the 'rebuild' was a delaying tactic, a time buying exercise, to take the heat off a club under pressure.
By doing so they bought a couple of years free of criticism....because the expectations were low.

It may be a bit cynical but...Is the review just another one of these tactics to take the heat off for a bit...."Oh, we have a few problems but we're reviewing things so leave us alone for a while to sort it out."

Not sure it's so much mixed messaging from us, more the media have no idea yet.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 09, 2021, 12:25:15 pm
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/06/09/carlton-president-confirms-teagues-job-is-safe-for-2022/
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 09, 2021, 12:29:30 pm
In context a president guaranteeing a coaches job confirms them as a dead man walking doesnt it??
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 09, 2021, 12:37:38 pm
In context a president guaranteeing a coaches job confirms them as a dead man walking doesnt it??

Sounds a bit more than the evasive "having the full support of the Board". Alot more elaboration.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 09, 2021, 12:44:51 pm
I think Teague is safe and I feel they want to keep him to his contract. Only way he is not there is if he himself decides to pull the pin. As for every other position in the footy dept? Not so safe and all up for review and change if required. Thats my opinion.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 09, 2021, 12:52:24 pm
I think Teague is safe and I feel they want to keep him to his contract. Only way he is not there is if he himself decides to pull the pin. As for every other position in the footy dept? Not so safe and all up for review and change if required. Thats my opinion.

That is my opinion too. Like Geelong did with Bomber, Richmond with Hardwick, Buckley with Collingwood the reviews sorted out the other issues. made the changes that created much better support for the coach. In each case they played the Grand Final the next year, the first two cases, won the GF by a large margin and created a dynasty.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Micky0 on June 09, 2021, 01:03:39 pm
I think Teague is safe and I feel they want to keep him to his contract. Only way he is not there is if he himself decides to pull the pin. As for every other position in the footy dept? Not so safe and all up for review and change if required. Thats my opinion.
Agree
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LoveNavy on June 09, 2021, 01:11:59 pm
Nice of the club to do the review, and heap all this pressure (but not pressure) on Teague soon after the loss of his mother in law too. Right after he's been shipped off to Sydney for a mini hub for a couple of weeks.

Who'd be a senior coach?

They are significant stressors for any person. The club preaches support for it's own. I certainly hope they can use some discretion and compassion. If nothing else, in terms of time.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on June 09, 2021, 01:40:04 pm
And with no intent to derail, I spent a good half hour with Buckley years back.  We got talking very intently about club histories, family upbringings, and everything in between.

He enjoyed it as did I.  Thoroughly like him.  Good good person.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LoveNavy on June 09, 2021, 01:47:26 pm
This isn't a shot at you GTC, but most footballers these days are nice. Back in the day you wouldn't let players from any team into your house.

Sellers is a goose. If your team mates are here today gone tomorrow, how can you build any kind of relationship, any kind of synergy ? If you have a losing mindset, how hard is that to break ? If you have a club that is trigger happy across all aspects of the football department, how can you give 100% to footy when you're constantly looking over your shoulder ?

Our players are not soft, they are not overpaid fat cats who are just chasing big contracts. Players have been coming to us for fat contracts and brown paper bags since the 60's. Our blokes have lost the winning habit, and have been witness to far too much instability and uncertainty, far too much list turnover, far to much coach turnover, which is why they play the way they do.

Totally agree with your views about "team" or lack there of, and the eroding process of instability and therefore uncertainty.

Generally people struggle with uncertainty. By default it then consumes resources from the body, mind, and heart. In that sense our team is operating with a real handicap, and has been for much of the recent past. This understanding of human psychology is most denied/misinterpreted/misused by those devoted to power and self promotion. Thus the tension between looking after business/outcomes v people. Organizations with healthy culture enable both to coexist under a clear philosophy or brand.

Much is about stability, so long as the goals/roles - personnel/processes are ALL pulling in the same direction.

I'll say again. In an organization that has more change than stability, one of the roles with potential to enhance individual/team is the Org psych. Of course, that person also works within the "greater good" plan.

As complex as it seems, it's also simple and simple measures can make an enormous difference. Every person in our club has the same condition. The human condition. Strip it back to respect, integrity, honesty. Add in energy, intensity, and teamwork.

Sorry, got a bit side tracked there. I'll show myself out🙂

One last thing.... we all make sense of events differently. Be kind to one another - WE are on the same team
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 09, 2021, 03:34:28 pm
https://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_/id/31580921/afl-rohan-connolly-give-david-teague-break-carlton-was-never-ever-going-play-finals-year?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true&fbclid=IwAR3qqmwkCX5jbecNjx6ESJnaXQxXyHvajuUi7eAqWzM2e0oaNlNXvcDGDew
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 09, 2021, 03:37:04 pm
And with no intent to derail, I spent a good half hour with Buckley years back.  We got talking very intently about club histories, family upbringings, and everything in between.

He enjoyed it as did I.  Thoroughly like him.  Good good person.

One thing about Buckley he does come across as a very good bloke.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 09, 2021, 03:49:45 pm
https://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_/id/31580921/afl-rohan-connolly-give-david-teague-break-carlton-was-never-ever-going-play-finals-year?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true&fbclid=IwAR3qqmwkCX5jbecNjx6ESJnaXQxXyHvajuUi7eAqWzM2e0oaNlNXvcDGDew
 Completely agree, and we are or at least we were still in the range to meet my prediction of around 12th or just above.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 09, 2021, 04:21:00 pm
The CEO sold finals and all those members he signed at record levels jumped on board theTeague finals train but then found out its
a cold wind to Valhalla(royalties to Ian Anderson).
And join with us, please
Valkyrie maidens ride
Empty-handed on the cold wind to Valhalla..
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 09, 2021, 04:29:32 pm
Here is one that'll do your head in, did some of our blokes know Buckley was about to pull the pin when we announced "The Review", knowing we'd only have to sustain 24hrs of attention?

How did the likes of Flubbo and Caro miss it, they were so focussed on derailing the Teague train they missed Buckley departing the station?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on June 09, 2021, 04:36:02 pm
The CEO sold finals and all those members he signed at record levels jumped on board theTeague finals train but then found out its
a cold wind to Valhalla(royalties to Ian Anderson).
And join with us, please
Valkyrie maidens ride
Empty-handed on the cold wind to Valhalla..

The teague train needs some locomotive breath @ElwoodBlues1
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 09, 2021, 04:57:06 pm
The teague train needs some locomotive breath @ElwoodBlues1
Cap...I'll pay that .😉.
Some unkind folk might say he is as " Thick as a Brick"...
Title: Re: Review
Post by: DJC on June 09, 2021, 05:03:21 pm
The teague train needs some locomotive breath @ElwoodBlues1

And

No way to slow down  :)
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Slowhand on June 09, 2021, 05:09:09 pm
Here are some of my review findings:

Liddle stays, seems to have a grasp
Teague stays, another two years
Power stays, development is one of our biggest problems and I believe he at least has a clue.
Austin and crew stay, recruiting will get better


GONESKY

Lloyd, Head of Football. Not up to it..
Bruce, Amos and Stanton goodbye. Not good enough…
Under serious pressure is -
High performance Team - not convinced we are fit or strong enough


Now for the new crew:

Football Manager:
Leppiesch (tiger experience)
Tom Harley (head hunt)
Mark Neeld (no nonsense)
Bomber Sheldon (bleeds blue and has the experience)

Asst Coaches:
Adrian Hickmont (head hunt doing good things in the west)
Matthew Scarlett (defence)
Eddie if he retires (mentor. Forwards)
Simmo. Harford, Krues, Fraser,
ANYONE WHO HAS HAD SUCCESS AS A MIDFIELD COACH








Title: Re: Review
Post by: cookie2 on June 09, 2021, 05:11:42 pm
Are we really on Puffing Billy?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 09, 2021, 05:24:53 pm
Totally agree with your views about "team" or lack there of, and the eroding process of instability and therefore uncertainty.

Generally people struggle with uncertainty. By default it then consumes resources from the body, mind, and heart. In that sense our team is operating with a real handicap, and has been for much of the recent past. This understanding of human psychology is most denied/misinterpreted/misused by those devoted to power and self promotion. Thus the tension between looking after business/outcomes v people. Organizations with healthy culture enable both to coexist under a clear philosophy or brand.

Much is about stability, so long as the goals/roles - personnel/processes are ALL pulling in the same direction.

I'll say again. In an organization that has more change than stability, one of the roles with potential to enhance individual/team is the Org psych. Of course, that person also works within the "greater good" plan.

As complex as it seems, it's also simple and simple measures can make an enormous difference. Every person in our club has the same condition. The human condition. Strip it back to respect, integrity, honesty. Add in energy, intensity, and teamwork.

Sorry, got a bit side tracked there. I'll show myself out🙂

One last thing.... we all make sense of events differently. Be kind to one another - WE are on the same team

Nice post LN.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Professer E on June 09, 2021, 05:25:22 pm
Slowhand....Neeld was the worst senior coach I have ever witnessed. Put a camera in front of him and turns into a bumbling simpleton.  I don't know about his credentials as an assistant but his media performances didn't impress.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 09, 2021, 05:40:18 pm
Here are some of my review findings:

Liddle stays, seems to have a grasp
Teague stays, another two years
Power stays, development is one of our biggest problems and I believe he at least has a clue.
Austin and crew stay, recruiting will get better


GONESKY

Lloyd, Head of Football. Not up to it..
Bruce, Amos and Stanton goodbye. Not good enough…
Under serious pressure is -
High performance Team - not convinced we are fit or strong enough


Now for the new crew:

Football Manager:
Leppiesch (tiger experience)
Tom Harley (head hunt)
Mark Neeld (no nonsense)
Bomber Sheldon (bleeds blue and has the experience)

Asst Coaches:
Adrian Hickmont (head hunt doing good things in the west)
Matthew Scarlett (defence)
Eddie if he retires (mentor. Forwards)
Simmo. Harford, Krues, Fraser,
ANYONE WHO HAS HAD SUCCESS AS A MIDFIELD COACH









I like a lot of  your thinking, especially the gonskis. But:
I dont think Leppa is interested in us.
You wont get Harley across
There may be some bad blood with Hickie and in any case seems fairly settled in WA despite being a Vic country boy.
I always thought Neeld had communication issues, something was NQR when he spoke.
I think Bomba is a little passed it TBH.
The rest maybe.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on June 09, 2021, 05:43:34 pm
Totally agree with your views about "team" or lack there of, and the eroding process of instability and therefore uncertainty.

Generally people struggle with uncertainty. By default it then consumes resources from the body, mind, and heart. In that sense our team is operating with a real handicap, and has been for much of the recent past. This understanding of human psychology is most denied/misinterpreted/misused by those devoted to power and self promotion. Thus the tension between looking after business/outcomes v people. Organizations with healthy culture enable both to coexist under a clear philosophy or brand.

Much is about stability, so long as the goals/roles - personnel/processes are ALL pulling in the same direction.

I'll say again. In an organization that has more change than stability, one of the roles with potential to enhance individual/team is the Org psych. Of course, that person also works within the "greater good" plan.

As complex as it seems, it's also simple and simple measures can make an enormous difference. Every person in our club has the same condition. The human condition. Strip it back to respect, integrity, honesty. Add in energy, intensity, and teamwork.

Sorry, got a bit side tracked there. I'll show myself out🙂

One last thing.... we all make sense of events differently. Be kind to one another - WE are on the same team

Love it. Top stuff, LN. I won't bang on, just to say you know where I stand with respect, authenticity, honesty... bla bla bla - let's be human with each other, dare to be vulnerable, no place for my way or the highway (which is what the Tiggers did, by the way - superior bonding sessions around 2016).
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 09, 2021, 05:53:58 pm
Are we really on Puffing Billy?
A few of the players in the WC game looked like they have been puffing something.....
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 09, 2021, 06:07:23 pm
The Teague Train is more the little engine that could.  " I think I can, I think I can, I think I can..."

Here are some of my review findings:

Liddle stays, seems to have a grasp
Teague stays, another two years
Power stays, development is one of our biggest problems and I believe he at least has a clue.
Austin and crew stay, recruiting will get better


GONESKY

Lloyd, Head of Football. Not up to it..
Bruce, Amos and Stanton goodbye. Not good enough…
Under serious pressure is -
High performance Team - not convinced we are fit or strong enough


Now for the new crew:

Football Manager:
Leppiesch (tiger experience)
Tom Harley (head hunt)
Mark Neeld (no nonsense)
Bomber Sheldon (bleeds blue and has the experience)

Asst Coaches:
Adrian Hickmont (head hunt doing good things in the west)
Matthew Scarlett (defence)
Eddie if he retires (mentor. Forwards)
Simmo. Harford, Krues, Fraser,
ANYONE WHO HAS HAD SUCCESS AS A MIDFIELD COACH











Under no circumstances can Amos leave.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 09, 2021, 06:08:55 pm
The Teague Train is more the little engine that could.  " I think I can, I think I can, I think I can..."


Under no circumstances can Amos leave.
Why? Its one of our worst lines at the minute.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 09, 2021, 06:18:16 pm
I suspect our defence issues are mostly :
1. personnel - too many rebounders
2. further up the ground.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 09, 2021, 06:34:47 pm
Why? Its one of our worst lines at the minute.

Our defense has been holding up admirably under what I would consider overwhelming weight of entries.

Teams literally setup to create seperation in order to quell their ability to get across and help each other.

We arent exactly chock full of talented, tough, hard defenders, and our opposition arent exactly able to score at will (when they do, its because of the way it comes in, rather than the way the defense structures).
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Milhanna13 on June 09, 2021, 08:44:06 pm
Our defense has been holding up admirably under what I would consider overwhelming weight of entries.

Teams literally setup to create seperation in order to quell their ability to get across and help each other.

We arent exactly chock full of talented, tough, hard defenders, and our opposition arent exactly able to score at will (when they do, its because of the way it comes in, rather than the way the defense structures).

I tend to agree. Back 6 isn’t as bad as many are making out.  Some of Ryan’s goals (aside from the hanger!), Geoff southby, rod austin, Bruce Doull and sos rolled into one wouldn’t have stopped.    It’s the ball walking out of the guts or out of the fwd line that is the issue
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 09, 2021, 08:55:46 pm
I tend to agree. Back 6 isn’t as bad as many are making out.  Some of Ryan’s goals (aside from the hanger!), Geoff southby, rod austin, Bruce Doull and sos rolled into one wouldn’t have stopped.    It’s the ball walking out of the guts or out of the fwd line that is the issue
I wouldn't bet on that, your talking about 2 (some might say 3) of the best defenders to walk the Earth.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 09, 2021, 09:10:54 pm
I wouldn't bet on that, your talking about 2 (some might say 3) of the best defenders to walk the Earth.
Ryan is a strong mark and needs a strong player in the air on him, none of our smaller defenders are great above their head and
he needs to be bodied up and not allowed free passage leading or jumping.
I dont blame Stocker it was a coaching debacle IMO and if thats a sample of Amos at work then he needs firing out the door with Barker...help cost us the game and damaged a young kid in the process...your quite Brilliant Dale Amos/David Teague.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: 31Tommys_barber on June 09, 2021, 09:33:46 pm
I tend to agree. Back 6 isn’t as bad as many are making out.  Some of Ryan’s goals (aside from the hanger!), Geoff southby, rod austin, Bruce Doull and sos rolled into one wouldn’t have stopped.    It’s the ball walking out of the guts or out of the fwd line that is the issue

Add in Peter Dean to that group
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on June 09, 2021, 09:43:10 pm
Add in the fact that the ball wouldn't have got down there in the first place. :)
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 09, 2021, 09:48:42 pm
Add in the fact that the ball wouldn't have got down there in the first place. :)
Wouldnt matter, point is they wouldn't fill their shorts when it did come down.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: DJC on June 09, 2021, 10:58:48 pm
Ryan is a strong mark and needs a strong player in the air on him, none of our smaller defenders are great above their head and
he needs to be bodied up and not allowed free passage leading or jumping.
I dont blame Stocker it was a coaching debacle IMO and if thats a sample of Amos at work then he needs firing out the door with Barker...help cost us the game and damaged a young kid in the process...your quite Brilliant Dale Amos/David Teague.

Ryan is a difficult match-up for all teams; they're aren't many defenders with the speed to go with him and the ability to stop him marking.  It was a very poor decision to (a) continue to play Stocker out of position and (b) play him on Ryan.  Jones took Ryan for a while and kept him pretty quiet.  Of course, he was required to play on a tall forward.

Apart from poor team selection and the coach's inability/reluctance to move players, it highlights our lack of a genuine hard-nosed lock down defender.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 09, 2021, 11:16:28 pm
Listening to  Ross The Boss on FC tonight, I'm not so sure he wants to coach again. He talked about commitments he has now with Business, MMM and Ch9 and what it takes to coach a big Melb club. I think he has a cooshi life right now and is thinking why would I jump into the furnace that is Collingwood (or Carlton should Teague be terminated) now?
Caro is adamant Clarkson will not be a Haw next year and will be at either Coll or Carl (Ross said IF Clarko is available, there is no contest).
Sam McLure reckons Ross is our No 1 target if Teague finishes up.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 09, 2021, 11:17:12 pm
Media opinion seems to have Ross Lyon coaching Collingwood and Clarkson being the new coach at Carlton..
Lyons friendship with SOS ruling him out at Carlton. I watched Footy Class tonight and IMHO Lyon is ready to coach again.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 09, 2021, 11:20:55 pm
Media opinion seems to have Ross Lyon coaching Collingwood and Clarkson being the new coach at Carlton..
Lyons friendship with SOS ruling him out at Carlton. I watched Footy Class tonight and IMHO Lyon is ready to coach again.
LOL I just posted, I thought. the complete opposite EB
Title: Re: Review
Post by: cookie2 on June 09, 2021, 11:25:15 pm
Media opinion seems to have Ross Lyon coaching Collingwood and Clarkson being the new coach at Carlton..
Lyons friendship with SOS ruling him out at Carlton. I watched Footy Class tonight and IMHO Lyon is ready to coach again.

Just watched that for the first time in my life and I concluded, maybe wrongly, that we are definitely chasing a big name coach, probably Clarkson, and that the Pies have belatedly joined the chase for him also. Note Eddie's spruiking of Collingwood to Lyon, but imo really aimed at Clarko.  Ross Lyon would be the consolation prize for them if they are the runner up, but maybe not for us. Just my own interpretation, no inside knowledge.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 09, 2021, 11:28:51 pm
Just watched that for the first time in my life and I concluded, maybe wrongly, that we are definitely chasing a big name coach, probably Clarkson, and that the Pies have belatedly joined the chase for him also. Note Eddie's spruiking of Collingwood to Lyon, but imo really aimed at Clarko.  Ross Lyon would be the consolation prize for them if they are the runner up, but maybe not for us. Just my own interpretation, no inside knowledge.
Cookie, EB and I also watched it and came to two different conclusions on Ross's desire to coach again. What was your read?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: cookie2 on June 09, 2021, 11:33:00 pm
Cookie, EB and I also watched it and came to two different conclusions on Ross's desire to coach again. What was your read?

Not 100% sure GTC but his body language and the fact that he said that he would take calls from AFL clubs tip me towards thinking he would be interested in another coaching gig. As I said, not sure that he would be keen on us but you never know.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on June 09, 2021, 11:40:39 pm
It's all determined by the settings, we'll get back to you on that, but we listen to the science and follow the health advice.

This is your government recording. 8)
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 09, 2021, 11:48:37 pm
LOL I just posted, I thought. the complete opposite EB
I also watched 360 on Kayo and Flubbo was very adamant that the SOS friendship ruled Lyon out of the Carlton job.
Lyon was very critical of some of our players, gamestyle etc vs WC but its all guess work and you may well be right.
One thing is for sure I reckon both Clarkson and Lyons phones will be taking calls from both clubs and I would be very nervous if I was David Teague  if its him vs Clarkson or Lyon I dont see it ending well for him.
Interesting how Lyon said he spoke to SOS today...
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Macca37 on June 10, 2021, 02:04:53 am
If the President's statement is correct that, irrespective of the review's findings, Teague's job is safe until the end of 2022 then we need a statement within a matter of days from Sayers confirming it.  If not, we risk becoming part of the media circus currently devoting nearly all of its energies to the Collingwood coaching position.

Collingwood has made a clean break with Buckley and all attention is on finding a successor.

Until Teague's position is clarified we will draw further attention our way with questions being asked about whether he is likely to stay, and every match will be analysed to the nth degree about his suitability continuing as coach.

Those in the media who believe we need a change of coach will have us in a race with Collingwood for likely applicants.

Teague is under enough pressure and if media scrutiny  continues to query his tenure at Carlton I am sure it will subject him to additional pressure that he does not need right now and confuse our list; the morale of our players will drop even further  and there will be even less likelihood of winning matches - almost a self fulfilling prophesy.

Teague deserves certainty, so do the supporters, and the Board should make its true intentions about his employment known immediately



Title: Re: Review
Post by: northernblue on June 10, 2021, 06:50:23 am
I have similar reservations Macca, about the almost ex president “guaranteeing” Teagues job, when the new guy is running the review…
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 10, 2021, 07:15:41 am
If the President's statement is correct that, irrespective of the review's findings, Teague's job is safe until the end of 2022 then we need a statement within a matter of days from Sayers confirming it.  If not, we risk becoming part of the media circus currently devoting nearly all of its energies to the Collingwood coaching position.

Collingwood has made a clean break with Buckley and all attention is on finding a successor.

Until Teague's position is clarified we will draw further attention our way with questions being asked about whether he is likely to stay, and every match will be analysed to the nth degree about his suitability continuing as coach.

Those in the media who believe we need a change of coach will have us in a race with Collingwood for likely applicants.

Teague is under enough pressure and if media scrutiny  continues to query his tenure at Carlton I am sure it will subject him to additional pressure that he does not need right now and confuse our list; the morale of our players will drop even further  and there will be even less likelihood of winning matches - almost a self fulfilling prophesy.

Teague deserves certainty, so do the supporters, and the Board should make its true intentions about his employment known immediately




MLG's comments were odd to say the least, how can the Football Dept be reviewed without the coach being subjected to it also is the question many are raising. I still go back to his appearance at the post WC match presser, he looked broken the poor bastard.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 10, 2021, 10:04:21 am
Lyons no fool.

If he wants the job, he isnt going to come out and say it, because we might pay him more to try and entice him into it.

Title: Re: Review
Post by: Micky0 on June 10, 2021, 10:17:25 am
Hm I watched it too and didn’t think Lyon was looking for a job.  He spoke well in that he said he would take the call out of respect snd of course it’s good for the ego to be chased but I didn’t feel he was really looking to coach again. And yes interesting his spoke to SOS that day… oh gosh maybe him taking the job would be dependent on SOS being reinstated snd round and round we go!

Poor DT good guy does not deserve this
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Blue Moon on June 10, 2021, 11:40:45 am
I watched FC, they showed the CEO, the Football Manager and the President saying Teague would be coaching Carlton next year, but this is not good enough. It is a bizarre sight when you have journalists complaining about people being unequivocal. It is also unreasonable for Sayers, who is heading the review, to comment on any potential outcome of the review. If you are going to pre-empt  a review, why have a review in the first place. Clarkson is contracted to the end of 2022 at Hawthorn so if you are looking at this change, then it is more likely to happen at the end of next season not this. I actually think Clarkson priority is to see off Kennett and I am not into Messiahs.
I think the real problem at Carlton is the lack of passion the players play with and haven't played with for twenty years now. Players pick and choose when they are going to go during matches, they pick and choose which quarters they are going to have a go during a match, and they have been picking and choosing which games they have been willing to have a go at. I think we have been better at turning up for games this year and we have been better throughout quarters this year, but not all players are going all the time. That is what needs to be fixed. If players have a red hot go all the time, we can then genuinely see how good the list and coaching is.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 10, 2021, 11:51:49 am
Hm I watched it too and didn’t think Lyon was looking for a job.  He spoke well in that he said he would take the call out of respect snd of course it’s good for the ego to be chased but I didn’t feel he was really looking to coach again. And yes interesting his spoke to SOS that day… oh gosh maybe him taking the job would be dependent on SOS being reinstated snd round and round we go!

Poor DT good guy does not deserve this
I think Lyon is playing hard to get and being coy to jack up the offers, clubs will know its going to take big money to drag him out of his media work. He was smart enough to list where he has work at the minute last night and what he would have to give up which is telling any prospective club you need to pony up a lot of dough to get me.
He is loving the Carlton/Collingwood crisis...both him and Clarkson are leading the pack and both can sit back and auction themselves off. Pies need a big name coach and so do we.....I'd keep Teague but he looks broken and its rumored he has been offered money to resign and go quietly.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: WASurfer on June 10, 2021, 12:00:00 pm
Blue....tend to agree. I wonder if we've just had two nice blokes as recent coaches and that has in some way contributed to it? If the club backs Teague in then I'm fine with that but if they decide to go with someone else, then IMO it needs to be someone with a bit of a ruthless edge...which leans itself to the Clarkson or Lyon theory.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 10, 2021, 12:20:03 pm
Blue....tend to agree. I wonder if we've just had two nice blokes as recent coaches and that has in some way contributed to it? If the club backs Teague in then I'm fine with that but if they decide to go with someone else, then IMO it needs to be someone with a bit of a ruthless edge...which leans itself to the Clarkson or Lyon theory.

Got to come from the players that ruthless edge. It has to be peer pressure, players knowing if they don't do the right thing that another will jump on them for it. Leadership group needs to be harder on those types of players.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 10, 2021, 12:21:10 pm
Blue....tend to agree. I wonder if we've just had two nice blokes as recent coaches and that has in some way contributed to it? If the club backs Teague in then I'm fine with that but if they decide to go with someone else, then IMO it needs to be someone with a bit of a ruthless edge...which leans itself to the Clarkson or Lyon theory.

Then before that we had Malthouse, as ruthless as you get.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: WASurfer on June 10, 2021, 12:21:50 pm
Agree to some extent Laj but if players don't tow the line then you'd expect the coaches/match committee to make tough calls and not pick those blokes. But yep, it's an across the board thing for sure which seems to have crept into the team.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: townsendcalling on June 10, 2021, 12:22:55 pm
In the middle of last year, when North and Shaw were really struggling, they announced that they were heading for a significant review and cuts due to the soft cap. That got all the assistant coaches very nervous and apparently their output and support for the senior coach was almost negligible. I hope you assistants are a bit more committed!!!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on June 10, 2021, 02:24:55 pm
Closest to the pin....
Working on the basis of 'You don't hold a review unless you're sure of the outcome'

Teague to stay.
Most of the assistants gone.
A senior adviser- (Not Worsfold) appointed
A new or single captain.
Russell gone.

...and working on the 'tin-foil' hat view that this is just a time buying exercise....or it's a diversionary attack on Calais when the real objective is Normandy...in which case.

Lloyd-gone
Liddle to follow within a short space of time...(SOS's revenge.)
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 10, 2021, 02:26:40 pm
Closest to the pin....
Working on the basis of 'You don't hold a review unless you're sure of the outcome'

Teague to stay.
Most of the assistants gone.
A senior adviser- (Not Worsfold) appointed
A new or single captain.
Russell gone.

...and working on the 'tin-foil' hat view that this is just a time buying exercise....or it's a diversionary attack on Calais when the real objective is Normandy.

Lloyd-gone
Liddle to follow within a short space of time...(SOS's revenge.)


You missed one.

There might be a simple outcome of restructuing the roles of those staying, adding some talent and then delivering 3 flags in the next 5 years....

Yeah nah.  Yours are more realistic.  ;P
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on June 10, 2021, 02:40:19 pm
Russell out.  Tomorrow.  Teague stays.  Liddle pack your bags pretender.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Micky0 on June 10, 2021, 02:41:10 pm
Russell out.  Tomorrow.  Teague stays.  Liddle pack your bags pretender.
really?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on June 10, 2021, 02:42:25 pm
really?

Yep ... IMO @Micky0
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Micky0 on June 10, 2021, 02:45:12 pm
Sorry hadnt read the 'closest to the pin' post before yours!

ok, sadly i think:

DT gone
Clarko in

power to stay, no other assistants to stay

ohhhh bolton might be back, under clarko! 
russell to stay too under clarko.

poor DT ::( sucks

Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 10, 2021, 02:45:38 pm
I've not understood Russell reviewing Betts, to me that suggests Russell has a role crossing several boundaries, I'm not sure it can work because in his fitness role he needs to be a confidant to the players but in review he is also an MC list management adviser.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 10, 2021, 04:54:52 pm
Closest to the pin....
Working on the basis of 'You don't hold a review unless you're sure of the outcome'

Teague to stay.
Most of the assistants gone.
A senior adviser- (Not Worsfold) appointed
A new or single captain.
Russell gone.

...and working on the 'tin-foil' hat view that this is just a time buying exercise....or it's a diversionary attack on Calais when the real objective is Normandy...in which case.

Lloyd-gone
Liddle to follow within a short space of time...(SOS's revenge.)


Teague to step down to save face. The board and CEO gave him full backing, but will honour his request to spend more time with family etc. Wins all round.....except for Teague who was really pushed.

Clarko in.....
Full review of assistants at Clarko's request.
Maybe Power stays...most gone.
Russell stays because he was at Hawks beforehand i think.

Lloyd stays.....for now. Replaced next year with someone Clarko approves of.

SPS to be traded. LoB to be delisted.
Cyril Rioli to be lured out of retirement.

How's that for Crystal Balling?

For the record, that is basically the exact opposite of what i want to happen.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 10, 2021, 05:04:31 pm
Teague to step down to save face. The board and CEO gave him full backing, but will honour his request to spend more time with family etc. Wins all round.....except for Teague who was really pushed.

Clarko in.....
Full review of assistants at Clarko's request.
Maybe Power stays...most gone.
Russell stays because he was at Hawks beforehand i think.

Lloyd stays.....for now. Replaced next year with someone Clarko approves of.

SPS to be traded. LoB to be delisted.
Cyril Rioli to be lured out of retirement.

How's that for Crystal Balling?

For the record, that is basically the exact opposite of what i want to happen.
If Clarko gets the job I would expect him to bring his own team and not retain anyone not protected by the Liddle umbrella.
Agree i think he will step down voluntary and its already rumored the money is on the table for him...
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 10, 2021, 05:07:31 pm
FWIW, i think the best thing for Teague to do is take the boys to the pub. Have a piss up and get everything out in the open.

"If you boys want me to be here, i need you to win this game against GWS. Not just win it, but convincingly win it. Put no doubt in anybodys mind that you are behind me and we are in this together."

If they can't, or choose not to lift for the coach....then it could get ugly......which i hate!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 10, 2021, 05:08:33 pm
If Clarko gets the job I would expect him to bring his own team and not retain anyone not protected by the Liddle umbrella.
Agree i think he will step down voluntary and its already rumored the money is on the table for him...

I just read that Power is going to be stepping up to take over Barkers role for the rest of the year.

I reckon if you are clarko, you couldn't possibly cut Power. The others are fair game.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 10, 2021, 05:11:42 pm
FWIW, i think the best thing for Teague to do is take the boys to the pub. Have a piss up and get everything out in the open.

"If you boys want me to be here, i need you to win this game against GWS. Not just win it, but convincingly win it. Put no doubt in anybodys mind that you are behind me and we are in this together."

If they can't, or choose not to lift for the coach....then it could get ugly......which i hate!
I think if Clarko or Lyon say yes then Teague wont get that chance......its gone past the wins/lossesIMO and Teagues only hope is if the big name coaches dont want the job.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 10, 2021, 05:16:23 pm
I just read that Power is going to be stepping up to take over Barkers role for the rest of the year.

I reckon if you are clarko, you couldn't possibly cut Power. The others are fair game.
I think he will want his own handpicked 2nd lieutenant, Power might be retained in a lesser role but usually when you pick a
big name coach they come with their own inner circle as part of the deal.
The recruiting is the interesting area for me and whether Liddle or Lloyd are prepared to let go and let a coach like Clarko
pick his own man in the main role.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 10, 2021, 05:20:36 pm
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/06/10/will-teague-be-coaching-carlton-in-2022/
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 10, 2021, 05:30:47 pm
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/06/10/will-teague-be-coaching-carlton-in-2022/
These deals are usually done now, well ahead of the season ending especially with Collingwood also looking for a new coach...
Clarko the messiah......where to for the club if he joins the long list of failed messiahs and gets lost in the wilderness that is Ikon park.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 10, 2021, 05:34:11 pm
Like other reviews I reckon the coach will stay and they'll be a cleanout of many other positions. Russell will stay but his role will be purely on the fitness side, not crossing roles as he is doing now, which is ridiculous. Roles for everyone will be alot more defined. Captaincy will change to Weitering. Teague and Clarko are both contracted for 2022 I think they'll try that first and see what happens under Teague next year.

All will be a waste if the players don't lift their motivation, drive and the culture changes. Bottom line, peer pressure needs the be the driver.





Title: Re: Review
Post by: WASurfer on June 10, 2021, 05:42:09 pm
So what happens if the Board commit to Teague on the back of this review and then we churn out 3 or 4 more shockers like the WCE game?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 10, 2021, 06:12:20 pm
So what happens if the Board commit to Teague on the back of this review and then we churn out 3 or 4 more shockers like the WCE game?

Probably not going to see much happen if you are within a goal or two all game and lose by 4 as bad as we performed generally. That stuff you can work out at year's end. Previous coaches those bad efforts were 60-100pt losses.

I will be interested to see player reaction come next game.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LoveNavy on June 10, 2021, 06:15:21 pm
Then before that we had Malthouse, as ruthless as you get.

And unbeknownst to him, blindly egocentric. "Who are you to question my superb record"
Until his record wasn't.....at Carlton.

Didn't help us, in fact generated further division and maintained the chaos that is Carlton.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 10, 2021, 06:21:37 pm
These deals are usually done now, well ahead of the season ending especially with Collingwood also looking for a new coach...
Clarko the messiah......where to for the club if he joins the long list of failed messiahs and gets lost in the wilderness that is Ikon park.

There should be plenty of room for Clarkson's stuffed and mounted head in the newly refurbished Big Game Room, right next to his buddy Bolts. Obviously we no longer have any interest in collecting flags, so we collect scalps instead. 
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 10, 2021, 06:30:21 pm
So what happens if the Board commit to Teague on the back of this review and then we churn out 3 or 4 more shockers like the WCE game?

I really hope that John Hollingsworth gets up and can give this dopey board a massive wake up call and shake up. Teague isn't the problem. The players have been through enough turmoil. Teague staying or going won't make much difference to their performance IMO.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 10, 2021, 06:34:43 pm
I really hope that John Hollingsworth gets up and can give this dopey board a massive wake up call and shake up. Teague isn't the problem. The players have been through enough turmoil. Teague staying or going won't make much difference to their performance IMO.

Player efforts created the turmoil.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: WASurfer on June 10, 2021, 06:57:16 pm
I agree PP....the board will look even more stupid if they've committed to Teague publicly for 2022 and then we cop a few floggings and the review recommends the club part ways with Teague. I think they were a bit stupid to say the review "wasn't about David Teague".....he's the coach and effectively head of the football department....how can he not be included in the total review?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Professer E on June 10, 2021, 07:04:03 pm
Crystal balling.

Teague to stay on.   Clarkson is unlikely, and contracted to end '22 anyway.
Assistants to get cleaned out.
Worsfold...  Still don't know what his role is,  is he part of the "soft cap" crowd?

Weeters to take over as captain.
Murphy to limp to 300 then retire.

A lot of onfield positional and personel changes.

I believe that a lot of the issues exist within the playing group and much improvement can come from within.  Seriously we have two possible members of an AA spine, we can't be that bad.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on June 10, 2021, 07:12:11 pm
Teague to Clarkson would be Brittain to Pagan revisited.

Clarkson would have to pull off at least a finals in his first year.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 10, 2021, 07:14:18 pm
I agree PP....the board will look even more stupid if they've committed to Teague publicly for 2022 and then we cop a few floggings and the review recommends the club part ways with Teague. I think they were a bit stupid to say the review "wasn't about David Teague".....he's the coach and effectively head of the football department....how can he not be included in the total review?

If we cop Bolton/Malthouse like floggings then he won't be coaching 2022. Fortunately it's the one thing we don't cop. Geelong and Richmond reviews sorted everything out around the coach and streamlined tasks, much allowing the coach to concentrate on his primary job.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 10, 2021, 07:19:52 pm
I agree PP....the board will look even more stupid if they've committed to Teague publicly for 2022 and then we cop a few floggings and the review recommends the club part ways with Teague. I think they were a bit stupid to say the review "wasn't about David Teague".....he's the coach and effectively head of the football department....how can he not be included in the total review?

I agree. If they are reviewing the football department, that means reviewing Teague plus 100 other things. I'm not sure how you can review a football department and yet state the coach is safe. MLG is an average communicator IMO.

The Board brings heat on the club by impulsive, rash behavior, never settling on any one thing, constantly changing one thing or another. Stability and unity will give us the best chance of success. This was an unnecessary announcement, much like the R2 2015 announcement of a total rebuild. Amateur hour yet again.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 10, 2021, 07:36:31 pm
Crystal balling.

Teague to stay on.   Clarkson is unlikely, and contracted to end '22 anyway.
Assistants to get cleaned out.
Worsfold...  Still don't know what his role is,  is he part of the "soft cap" crowd?

Weeters to take over as captain.
Murphy to limp to 300 then retire.

A lot of onfield positional and personel changes.

I believe that a lot of the issues exist within the playing group and much improvement can come from within.  Seriously we have two possible members of an AA spine, we can't be that bad.
Agree with all that. Clarko wont come to us due to how we treated BB plus is blindly/fiercely loyal to the hawks.
Ditto Mitchell if we were to ask, although he would consider Coll if they asked.
Lyon Im  not convinced wants to coach, wont like how we treated his great mate SOS. Wont come to us, will go to Coll if he does get back on the horse.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 10, 2021, 07:39:43 pm
Teague to Clarkson would be Brittain to Pagan revisited.

Clarkson would have to pull off at least a finals in his first year.
Not even JC would see us play finals any time soon. Our list is a little overrated, need to clean out a few who dont compete.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 10, 2021, 07:51:00 pm
Not even JC would see us play finals any time soon. Our list is a little overrated, need to clean out a few who dont compete.
Interesting that one. Given the very competitive nature, on the scoreboard at least, not player effort, only take the players to actually want to perform as they should, which ridiculously seems a big ask for our lot, to reverse a number of those losses and get into the 8. That's is what is most frustrating. Our midfield isn't deep though and making the 8 would be it. So, agree, we need to clean out those who don't compete as it is dragging us back big time.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: jeza on June 10, 2021, 09:13:26 pm
Our biggest problem has been our inability to recruit even a single midfielder of note - basically since Judd.

Williams was supposed to be it. But his body clearly isn't up to it.

We passed on numerous guys like Treloar, Jarrod Lyons and Brad Crouch. Missed the boat on guys like Lachie Neale, Rockliff, Tom Mitchell, Zac Jones, Shiel and numerous others.

And then we've missed bona fide mids in the draft - Oliver, Butters, Cerra, Tim Kelly, Perryman, Bolton, Parish, Hopper, Dunkley, etc.

And all the mids (apart from Walsh) have been busts so far.

I don't need a "Review" to tell me that.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: jeza on June 10, 2021, 09:15:13 pm
Sack as many people as you can out of the soft cap - and pump all of that money into recruitment to make sure we don't keep missing the boat.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Milhanna13 on June 10, 2021, 10:13:46 pm
Our biggest problem has been our inability to recruit even a single midfielder of note - basically since Judd.

Williams was supposed to be it. But his body clearly isn't up to it.

We passed on numerous guys like Treloar, Jarrod Lyons and Brad Crouch. Missed the boat on guys like Lachie Neale, Rockliff, Tom Mitchell, Zac Jones, Shiel and numerous others.

And then we've missed bona fide mids in the draft - Oliver, Butters, Cerra, Tim Kelly, Perryman, Bolton, Parish, Hopper, Dunkley, etc.

And all the mids (apart from Walsh) have been busts so far.

I don't need a "Review" to tell me that.

Yeah, we haven’t snagged a midfielder that desperately need, but; crouch, Rockliff , Jones? If any of them were on our list, we would be screaming about recruiting list cloggers.  The others (maybe shiel and Mitchell aside, given the cost), wouldve been VERY handy.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: jeza on June 10, 2021, 10:32:23 pm
Point being - we've struggled to get even B grade mids.

Newnes the closest I guess.

That is not even B grade.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: shawny on June 10, 2021, 10:41:06 pm
Our biggest problem has been our inability to recruit even a single midfielder of note - basically since Judd.

Williams was supposed to be it. But his body clearly isn't up to it.

We passed on numerous guys like Treloar, Jarrod Lyons and Brad Crouch. Missed the boat on guys like Lachie Neale, Rockliff, Tom Mitchell, Zac Jones, Shiel and numerous others.

And then we've missed bona fide mids in the draft - Oliver, Butters, Cerra, Tim Kelly, Perryman, Bolton, Parish, Hopper, Dunkley, etc.

And all the mids (apart from Walsh) have been busts so far.

I don't need a "Review" to tell me that.

Couldn’t agree anymore. Spot on!!!

I was so critical on sos for this very fact. Horse seems to have bolted. With another bottom 4-6 finish coming doubt we will attract them now if we couldn’t previously.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: shawny on June 10, 2021, 10:46:53 pm
The drafting of kemp was another that I didn’t understand. Screaming for a ready mid by this stage of the rebuild and we use our first round pick on a bloke who just did an acl and now I hear he is more of a tall defender then a mid. And I can’t remember who it was but we passed on some kids who were still there when kemp was but were much more developed and ready to go yet still we decide to select a mid who wouldn’t be ready for 18 months.
Laughable.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 11, 2021, 01:13:38 am
Agree with Jezza, midfield is where the game is controlled/won and we dont have the numbers or quality to compete.
Its also is putting a large workload on Cripps and Walsh and you have to wonder how long that can last.
You add a tight salary cap and it might be back to the draft for more kids if we cant offload some players and make some wriggle room to attract some quality readymade mids. Cerra and Merrett would interest me if we could afford them..
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 11, 2021, 08:23:37 am
Agree with Jezza, midfield is where the game is controlled/won and we dont have the numbers or quality to compete.
In fairness to our MC and list management, the rule changes have moved the critical zone from the HBF to the Centre, our list was all setup for HBF based defence and turnover, and now we are left a little light in the midfield.

That Jets kid we just picked up in the MSD is part of the cure, he's more than capable of being the basis of a reshuffle.

Beyond form, I wonder if SPS in the 2s, and others, is a sign our club has realised the need for change. Under these rules we have too many of a type, that before were a sign of depth and now it's an excess.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: shawny on June 11, 2021, 09:35:52 am
Agree with Jezza, midfield is where the game is controlled/won and we dont have the numbers or quality to compete.
Its also is putting a large workload on Cripps and Walsh and you have to wonder how long that can last.
You add a tight salary cap and it might be back to the draft for more kids if we cant offload some players and make some wriggle room to attract some quality readymade mids. Cerra and Merrett would interest me if we could afford them..

Cerra wont come cheap and is still learning so with our poor history with developing kids into decent midfielders, I don't trust the club with a player like Cerra.

Rather we throw as much as we possibly can to get 2 ready mids like Merrett and Mitchell who we know without wondering the instant improvement those recruits will make.

Cerra is better going to an organisation that can develop him into the potential he has. We are not the team for that and by now should know this and stop making the same mistakes.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 11, 2021, 11:31:15 am
Cerra wont come cheap and is still learning so with our poor history with developing kids into decent midfielders, I don't trust the club with a player like Cerra.

Rather we throw as much as we possibly can to get 2 ready mids like Merrett and Mitchell who we know without wondering the instant improvement those recruits will make.

Cerra is better going to an organisation that can develop him into the potential he has. We are not the team for that and by now should know this and stop making the same mistakes.

Take your point Shawny on Cerra... Its a valid criticism and if the coaching setup doesn't change then maybe readymades are a better bet.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 11, 2021, 11:37:19 am
btw., On mids, did anyone hear Darcy carry on about Connor Rozee last night, spent quite a bit of the commentary trying to create an assertion that Rozee was somehow a rare latent talent better than Walsh.

I suppose this goes back to Darcy's call when we took Walsh that we'd made a mistake overlooking Rozee.

Cerra would compliment on mids HFF nicely, but what do you do with Martin, Williams, Saad, etc., ect. if you take Cerra? So I tend to agree, the price is too high, we probably need more grunt as a priority over polish.

I concede we need some polish too, I'm just not giving up on the polish eventually coming from our current list of kids given some time.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 11, 2021, 11:39:50 am
btw., On mids, did anyone hear Darcy carry on about Connor Rozee last night, spent quite a bit of the commentary trying to create an assertion that Rozee was somehow a rare latent talent better than Walsh.

I suppose this goes back to Darcy's call when we took Walsh that we'd made a mistake overlooking Rozee.
Worst football commentator on TV is D'Arcy..
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Professer E on June 11, 2021, 12:58:13 pm
Sycophant
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 11, 2021, 01:04:58 pm
Sycophant
Yes perhaps, maybe more than perhaps given the CheatsFCTV structure.

But I dare say even in other days at MMM and the like Darcy has always hated us.

We know we can just Andrew Walker, perhaps the biggest joke decision in the history of AFL/VFL. Ironic that someone would love the Filth ahead of anybody, but then if the assertion is correct, Darcy is a sycophant to the likes of CheatsFC!

The Krakouer mark has barely been seen in replay since the day of the award, I even seen Walker's used in MOTY highlights this season! :o
Title: Re: Review
Post by: crashlander on June 11, 2021, 01:28:52 pm
Until there are Carlton people making decisions and appearing in prime time, we're not going to get what we deserve from the mouths of the news services. A fact of life. But there are a few out there that make their biases pretty obvious. No need to mention names.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: spf on June 11, 2021, 01:35:27 pm
Cerra wont come cheap and is still learning so with our poor history with developing kids into decent midfielders, I don't trust the club with a player like Cerra.

Rather we throw as much as we possibly can to get 2 ready mids like Merrett and Mitchell who we know without wondering the instant improvement those recruits will make.

Cerra is better going to an organisation that can develop him into the potential he has. We are not the team for that and by now should know this and stop making the same mistakes.


It is at the other end we need the support i.e. not so much Cerra but more Mitch Duncan. We need quality professionals who can get it, use it and lead. They need to turn up most weeks and give us consistency. We need them to do it for three years while the juniors develop.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Micky0 on June 11, 2021, 04:31:31 pm
Hm. From the Prez

Quote
   THE CLUB recently announced that it will undertake an independent football department review to be conducted by an external panel of experts in the industry.

The first part of this process has been to finalise the external panel who will lead this process.

I am pleased to advise you that the following three panel members will conduct a holistic review of the entire football department. This panel will be led by incoming President Luke Sayers with the support of CEO Cain Liddle, and the final report with its recommendations will be delivered to the Carlton Football Club Board.

The three-member panel will be:

-              Graham Lowe

-              Geoff Walsh

-              Matthew Pavlich

Graham Lowe is a high performance and leadership consultant who for the last two decades has worked across multiple levels of professional sport both nationally and globally including AFL, Rugby (domestic and international) and America’s Cup sailing.

His recent sporting experience and expertise involves being a key contributor to the Western Bulldogs 2016 Premiership in his role of General Manager – Football, along with working within high performance for the New Zealand All-Blacks.

Outside of sport, Graham has also consulted with several organisations in the delivery and facilitation of leadership and development, including Ernst & Young and worked with clients such as Google and Walt Disney Australia / New Zealand.

Geoff Walsh is one of Victoria’s most experienced and accomplished sports administrators, holding leadership roles at both state and national levels over an extensive career in elite sport. He contains a strong skill set in people management, problem solving, innovation, and sustained sporting excellence.

A respected AFL administrator, Geoff has worked across multiple AFL clubs and has extensive experience leading AFL programs that have delivered four Premierships, 10 grand finalists, and 25 Finals series teams.

Matthew Pavlich was an AFL captain for nine years during his 17-year career at the Fremantle Dockers, becoming the first WA based player to play over 300 AFL games.

Off the field, Matthew has obtained both a Bachelor of Science and an MBA from University of Western Australia. He also completed a three-year tenure as the AFLPA’s President and was a member of their board of directors for nine years. During his AFL career, Matthew also spent time on the AFL Laws of the Game Committee.

He is an established media presenter with Fox Sports and Channel 9 and has a number of business interests including PMY Group, Lumin Technologies and PickStar.

In what is an important process, the experienced panel members will be afforded the time required to conduct the extensive review and as such there will not be an ongoing commentary of the review. The panel will provide the necessary recommendations to the Board, to take the football department forward.

We understand our members and supporters expect more from an on-field performance perspective. As a club, we are fully aware that we exist to win games of football and ultimately win premierships.

You, together with all our members and supporters can rest assured we remain committed to improve our on-field performance, while also ensuring this football club continues to be relentless in its pursuit of excellence and success.

That is why we have embarked on this mid-season independent football review.

History will show you that in challenging times, the best clubs stay united and supportive.

I thank you for your continued support of the Carlton Football club.

Mark LoGiudice

President  
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on June 11, 2021, 05:26:52 pm
Hm amplified.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 11, 2021, 05:43:18 pm
These individuals are being paid by the Carlton football club I presume?.....
Sayers and Liddle will be an interesting work dynamic.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 11, 2021, 07:10:16 pm
These individuals are being paid by the Carlton football club I presume?.....
Sayers and Liddle will be an interesting work dynamic.
Why do you say that EB?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 11, 2021, 07:56:47 pm
Why do you say that EB?
GTC.. Its like auditors, they are paid to report on a companies finances but often its about reporting in a way that suits the Directors of the company. Many companies will change auditors to get the results displayed in a more pleasing format to shareholders.
I'm not sure what agenda Liddle has and what his desired outcome is.
I think Sayers will be more impartial and be looking for a honest appraisal but I'm not so sure Liddle will be so invested and will be looking after team Liddle first.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Milhanna13 on June 11, 2021, 08:20:27 pm
GTC.. Its like auditors, they are paid to report on a companies finances but often its about reporting in a way that suits the Directors of the company. Many companies will change auditors to get the results displayed in a more pleasing format to shareholders.
I'm not sure what agenda Liddle has and what his desired outcome is.
I think Sayers will be more impartial and be looking for a honest appraisal but I'm not so sure Liddle will be so invested and will be looking after team Liddle first.

Always interesting to see who sets the scope and who pays the bill

The one thing the announcement  does clarify Is that it is the footy dept only.  This probably makes Liddle’s involvement a little more palatable, as, although he has ultimate responsibility for the footy dept, at least it’s not directly his dept.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 11, 2021, 08:31:10 pm
Always interesting to see who sets the scope and who pays the bill

The one thing the announcement  does clarify Is that it is the footy dept only.  This probably makes Liddle’s involvement a little more palatable, as, although he has ultimate responsibility for the footy dept, at least it’s not directly his dept.
Brad Lloyd and Mick Agresta are his mates and make up team Liddle and I expect both of them to come under some scrutiny.
I would presume Liddle would have both their backs and I'm hoping its a truly independent review and all members of the footy dept are scrutinized equally and that mates dont look after mates.
Lloyd in particular I hope is reviewed well and that any shortcomings are not swept under the rug and that Teague isnt the fall guy.
Sayers seems a smart operator and hopefully can guide the review to set us on the right direction, I dont really want Liddle having a over riding influence.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on June 11, 2021, 08:42:49 pm
I don't trust the outcome of this review at all.  Deeply cynical and suspect most Carlton supporters will be thinking the same.

Title: Re: Review
Post by: jeza on June 11, 2021, 10:03:21 pm
This bit is interesting:
"This panel will be led by incoming President Luke Sayers with the support of CEO Cain Liddle, and the final report with its recommendations will be delivered to the Carlton Football Club Board."

I'd keep Liddle well away from any influence on the review/report. He's clearly a politician - and I have no doubt he will attempt to influence this to his own ends. I have no faith in that guy.

I reckon he'd literally give away memberships to inflate our numbers to make himself look good... oh wait... that's exactly what he did. Fooking flog.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: DJC on June 11, 2021, 11:34:04 pm
I find it hard to believe that anyone worth their salt would conduct a review, or provide any other service, without being paid by the organisation seeking the review or service.  Of course, Lowe, Walsh and Pavlich are being paid by the club and that certainly doesn't mean that they will pull their punches.  Perhaps the club should have called for volunteers to have conducted a review for free ... that would work out really well  ::)

The club has picked three independent, well-qualified blokes who are in no way beholden to the club and I reckon their review will knock a few scabs off.

Having worked with internal and external auditors, I know that they don't give a fat rat's clacker about who is paying their bills ... and they're in deep sh1t if they don't comply with Australian Auditing Standards.

I'm a lot happier after reading the President's email.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 12, 2021, 12:34:41 am
I find it hard to believe that anyone worth their salt would conduct a review, or provide any other service, without being paid by the organisation seeking the review or service.  Of course, Lowe, Walsh and Pavlich are being paid by the club and that certainly doesn't mean that they will pull their punches.  Perhaps the club should have called for volunteers to have conducted a review for free ... that would work out really well  ::)

The club has picked three independent, well-qualified blokes who are in no way beholden to the club and I reckon their review will knock a few scabs off.

Having worked with internal and external auditors, I know that they don't give a fat rat's clacker about who is paying their bills ... and they're in deep sh1t if they don't comply with Australian Auditing Standards.

I'm a lot happier after reading the President's email.
I'll disagree on the latter, companies on the asx change auditors to change the perspective of reports all the time.
Its often an item on voting forms for shareholders to approve especially with companies struggling or looking to capital raise. Hopefully the club provide details of expenses of the review in the annual report. I'm always interested in how much money is spent on these type of workplace evaluations and where the money went.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 12, 2021, 08:02:45 am
So the cynic in me thinks Harry is about to walk and the review is a smokescreen to absolve the club of the blame.

McGovern and Williams are millstones hanging round our neck.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 12, 2021, 09:01:16 am
So the cynic in me thinks Harry is about to walk and the review is a smokescreen to absolve the club of the blame.

McGovern and Williams are millstones hanging round our neck.
Wayne Carey wants Nth to throw a godfather deal at Harry and I presume also look after his brother Ben too. I think Harry will stay but will cost us a bit more than anticipated.
Id be inclined not to over pay...



Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 12, 2021, 10:39:16 am
Wayne Carey wants Nth to throw a godfather deal at Harry and I presume also look after his brother Ben too. I think Harry will stay but will cost us a bit more than anticipated.
Id be inclined not to over pay...
Could cost between 900-950k now.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: madbluboy on June 12, 2021, 10:58:54 am
Pretty sure his brother has already signed with North.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 12, 2021, 11:09:13 am
Pretty sure his brother has already signed with North.
Three years for Ben at Nth but if Harry signed on I think Nth would look after Ben for the future too..
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Micky0 on June 12, 2021, 11:42:08 am
Have we not waited a million years for H to come good? He owes us Altho I don’t see him as being particularly tight with the other players, there is something not quite right there.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: shawny on June 12, 2021, 12:07:31 pm
Harry has stated several times he played so much junior foot with his brother he does not want to be at the same club. I know sometimes money talks but not sure there is many other positives in joining a team like North over us
Title: Re: Review
Post by: townsendcalling on June 12, 2021, 03:17:07 pm
Conspiracy theory…..In current negotiations  and other conversations, it was highlighted that we are going nowhere and that things needed to change ASAP before there were significant commitments. Sayer saw some writing on the wall and decided to get proactive and create a circuit breaker…. A full mid season review.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 12, 2021, 04:25:59 pm
I've heard that the Cripps delay in signing is so that the club gets to see who opponents offer up in trade, apparently we played this game once before when SOS was in charge, maybe we are doing it again and Austin is a little less polished at it! :o
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 12, 2021, 05:45:58 pm
Harry has stated several times he played so much junior foot with his brother he does not want to be at the same club. I know sometimes money talks but not sure there is many other positives in joining a team like North over us
A 5-7 Million dollar contract might make him love his brother at the same club a bit more....
As Jim suggested I can see the price being pushed up to 900k- 1mill, cant see Harrys management accepting less given lesser players like Williams are around the 800k mark.
Its going to be a balancing act with Cripps and Walsh also set to be around that those figures you would have to expect.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 12, 2021, 05:49:10 pm
A 5-7 Million dollar contract might make him love his brother at the same club a bit more....
As Jim suggested I can see the price being pushed up to 900k- 1mill, cant see Harrys management accepting less given lesser players like Williams are around the 800k mark.
Its going to be a balancing act with Cripps and Walsh also set to be around that those figures you would have to expect.

Just backend it and ask him to take a pay cut if/when we are successful to keep the band together.
If we are not successful and we don't want to pay his contract.....someone will.

Win-win.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: crashlander on June 12, 2021, 10:10:01 pm
Wayne Carey wants Nth to throw a godfather deal at Harry and I presume also look after his brother Ben too. I think Harry will stay but will cost us a bit more than anticipated.
Id be inclined not to over pay...

You know where Carey can put his godfather deal.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Milhanna13 on June 12, 2021, 10:16:34 pm
So the cynic in me thinks Harry is about to walk and the review is a smokescreen to absolve the club of the blame.

McGovern and Williams are millstones hanging round our neck.

Williams will be fine. Tough and skilful.  Just finding his feet
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Milhanna13 on June 12, 2021, 10:19:25 pm
I find it hard to believe that anyone worth their salt would conduct a review, or provide any other service, without being paid by the organisation seeking the review or service.  Of course, Lowe, Walsh and Pavlich are being paid by the club and that certainly doesn't mean that they will pull their punches.  Perhaps the club should have called for volunteers to have conducted a review for free ... that would work out really well  ::)

The club has picked three independent, well-qualified blokes who are in no way beholden to the club and I reckon their review will knock a few scabs off.

Having worked with internal and external auditors, I know that they don't give a fat rat's clacker about who is paying their bills ... and they're in deep sh1t if they don't comply with Australian Auditing Standards.

I'm a lot happier after reading the President's email.

Dunstall was on mmm talking about the crows review,  interviewed every player and footy dept employee (that would be what, 70-80 people?) for 30 mins to an hour each. Then wrote up the report with recommendations.  That’s a lot of work.  Yep, no one is doing that for free!!!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 12, 2021, 10:31:06 pm
Dunstall was on mmm talking about the crows review,  interviewed every player and footy dept employee (that would be what, 70-80 people?) for 30 mins to an hour each. Then wrote up the report with recommendations.  That’s a lot of work.  Yep, no one is doing that for free!!!
Word is Dunstall knocked us back.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: cookie2 on June 12, 2021, 10:35:19 pm
Word is Dunstall knocked us back.

Would he be available at this stage of the season? He does a lot of media work.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 12, 2021, 10:45:39 pm
Word is Dunstall knocked us back.
Yep. There was an article suggesting as much.

I think he was a Carlton fan back in the day too. Ouch.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Mantis on June 12, 2021, 11:46:40 pm
Judging by what I have read circulating in the media, a review is in place to assess our coaching staff. What happens next? If the entire coaching panel is below the standards we need to succeed do we start fishing for a better group of assistant coaches first? Is it not the way that a senior coach generally selects his own crew? I am curious how deep this review goes and whether it could question recruitment of players and player development? I would suggest a review should go from head to toe of the entire club. Board members and players too. I wonder how ugly this process might end up.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Milhanna13 on June 12, 2021, 11:51:37 pm
Yep. There was an article suggesting as much.

I think he was a Carlton fan back in the day too. Ouch.

Or, he is now working on fox and mmm, and can’t spare the 200hrs for this review
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 13, 2021, 07:30:04 am
Dunstall was on mmm talking about the crows review,  interviewed every player and footy dept employee (that would be what, 70-80 people?) for 30 mins to an hour each. Then wrote up the report with recommendations.  That’s a lot of work.  Yep, no one is doing that for free!!!

His recommendation...."you're all a bunch of floggggs"....lol.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 13, 2021, 08:27:49 am
Or, he is now working on fox and mmm, and can’t spare the 200hrs for this review
He's done reviews with similar time commitments in the past
Title: Re: Review
Post by: northernblue on June 13, 2021, 10:33:06 am
Can someone please enlighten me as to who are the personnel on our match committee ?

I’m interested in how much attention will be payed to them in this review…
Title: Re: Review
Post by: RiverRat on June 13, 2021, 10:48:44 am
Can someone please enlighten me as to who are the personnel on our match committee ?


Good question.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: northernblue on June 13, 2021, 11:00:17 am
@RiverRat
I’ve searched several times but cannot find the names.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: bobby on June 13, 2021, 04:43:45 pm
Speaking of flogs. I'd hope that the review finds Lloyd in need of replacement recommends Neil Balme. His pedigree - 9 GFs for 6 wins I think.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 13, 2021, 04:47:07 pm
Speaking of flogs. I'd hope that the review finds Lloyd in need of replacement recommends Neil Balme. His pedigree - 9 GFs for 6 wins I think.

I've suggested this a few times before, and some of the old timers won't have a bar or it. For supporters of a particular era, Balme is the most hated man in CFC history. I'm not sure I like him that much either,  but where he goes, success follows.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 13, 2021, 05:12:35 pm
I've suggested this a few times before, and some of the old timers won't have a bar or it. For supporters of a particular era, Balme is the most hated man in CFC history. I'm not sure I like him that much either,  but where he goes, success follows.
He's the best football manager in the business, not opinion, fact. If we could poach him, I'd be rapt. I couldn't give a flying fork what he did or didn't do in his playing days.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 13, 2021, 05:16:10 pm
He's the best football manager in the business, not opinion, fact. If we could poach him, I'd be rapt. I couldn't give a flying fork what he did or didn't do in his playing days.

I tend to agree, but many folks would not support it and would find it a very difficult pill to swallow.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 13, 2021, 05:17:17 pm
I tend to agree, but many folks would not support it and would find it a very difficult pill to swallow.
Who? People on this forum? Pffft, we dont count one iota. Play finals and jag a flag and all will be forgotten.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 13, 2021, 05:50:23 pm
No to that maggot Balme.....just scum, imagine us begging for a neanderthal thug like that to come and save us, how low can we get? Whats next Kevin Sheedy as Director of coaching?.........





Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on June 13, 2021, 06:43:46 pm
I've suggested this a few times before, and some of the old timers won't have a bar or it. For supporters of a particular era, Balme is the most hated man in CFC history. I'm not sure I like him that much either,  but where he goes, success follows.

I guess I might be one of those 'old timers' (having Brent Crosswell as my avatar is a bit of a giveaway) who despised Balme for his mongrel acts in the early 70s against some of our legends.

However... he is the best footy dept manager going around and I'd snap him up in a second. Bringing order and strength to our footy dept is one way he can make amends  ;)
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 13, 2021, 07:11:56 pm
I guess I might be one of those 'old timers' (having Brent Crosswell as my avatar is a bit of a giveaway) who despised Balme for his mongrel acts in the early 70s against some of our legends.

However... he is the best footy dept manager going around and I'd snap him up in a second. Bringing order and strength to our footy dept is one way he can make amends  ;)
He can become the next Pope or Dalai Lama but he can never make amends for what he did to Geoff Southby...
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 13, 2021, 08:06:24 pm
I guess I might be one of those 'old timers' (having Brent Crosswell as my avatar is a bit of a giveaway) who despised Balme for his mongrel acts in the early 70s against some of our legends.

However... he is the best footy dept manager going around and I'd snap him up in a second. Bringing order and strength to our footy dept is one way he can make amends  ;)

Yes I agree. If he's not helping us win a flag, he's helping another mob.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 13, 2021, 08:15:42 pm
He can become the next Pope or Dalai Lama but he can never make amends for what he did to Geoff Southby...
He doesnt need to, he just needs to fix our footy dept so we can win more than we lose and play finals. He could have king  hit Doull for all I care.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 13, 2021, 08:16:50 pm
Yes I agree. If he's not helping us win a flag, he's helping another mob.

Strengthen your army, weaken your enemy's.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on June 13, 2021, 08:39:34 pm
He doesnt need to, he just needs to fix our footy dept so we can win more than we lose and play finals. He could have king  hit Doull for all I care.

Life is about today, just as it was yesterday.  Or the decades before.  Sorry GTC, @ElwoodBlues1 is right.  Don't want the mongrel dog
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 13, 2021, 08:44:29 pm
Life is about today, just as it was yesterday.  Or the decades before.  Sorry GTC, @ElwoodBlues1 is right.  Don't want the mongrel dog
What you or I want matters not.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 13, 2021, 09:05:38 pm
Strengthen your army, weaken your enemy's.
Having Balme in a Navy Blue CFC logo Polo at Ikon Park is selling your soul, no premiership is worth losing your dignity.
There is an old saying that a "drowning man will cling onto a serpent".
We might be swimming against the tide but we are not drowning yet.....
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 13, 2021, 09:09:08 pm
Having Balme in a Navy Blue CFC logo Polo at Ikon Park is selling your soul, no premiership is worth losing your dignity.
There is an old saying that a "drowning man will cling onto a serpent".
We might be swimming against the tide but we are not drowning yet.....

I'd prefer Balme to a convicted drug cheat in a CFC polo.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 13, 2021, 09:14:46 pm
I'd prefer Balme to a convicted drug cheat in a CFC polo.
I'd prefer Vlad Putin or Kim Jong Un to Balme.....
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on June 13, 2021, 09:18:32 pm
I'd prefer Vlad Putin or Kim Jong Un to Balme.....

Find a jumper to fit Kim ... size XXXXXXL
Title: Re: Review
Post by: northernblue on June 13, 2021, 09:54:50 pm
Find a jumper to fit Kim ... size XXXXXXL

I can’t see him applying the required pressure in the fwd 50
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on June 13, 2021, 10:02:58 pm
I can’t see him applying the required pressure in the fwd 50

You would dare question our Dear Leader?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 13, 2021, 10:05:34 pm
I can’t see him applying the required pressure in the fwd 50
Think I'd be playing him back, he likes to starve his people of opportunities and is big on defense.
Unlike our defense nothing gets in or out of KJ backline, likes a good team bonding parade too so he would be handy in Grand Final week..
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Macca37 on June 13, 2021, 10:09:33 pm
Having Balme in a Navy Blue CFC logo Polo at Ikon Park is selling your soul, no premiership is worth losing your dignity.
There is an old saying that a "drowning man will cling onto a serpent".
We might be swimming against the tide but we are not drowning yet.....


I was at the ground the day Balme broke Southby's jaw - an absolute mongrel act. 

It made sure we lost the grand final.  Kevin Hall had to be moved from the half back flank to full back.  Carlton players forgot the ball and spent the game trying to even up with Balme.

For those who say we should forgive because, after all, it was a long time ago, I just say "You had to be there".
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 13, 2021, 10:27:25 pm
I was at the ground the day Balme broke Southby's jaw - an absolute mongrel act. 

It made sure we lost the grand final.  Kevin Hall had to be moved from the half back flank to full back.  Carlton players forgot the ball and spent the game trying to even up with Balme.

For those who say we should forgive because, after all, it was a long time ago, I just say "You had to be there".
How much damage did Diesel and Rhys do behind play to others and yet they are favourite sons. In any case, no point arguing over it, I wont change your mind(s) and you wont change mind. If the club were to poach him, which I doubt he'd move personally, only thing that you, EB, Capcom et al can do is stop supporting the Blues in protest I suppose.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on June 13, 2021, 10:54:31 pm
How much damage did Diesel and Rhys do behind play to others and yet they are favourite sons. In any case, no point arguing over it, I wont change your mind(s) and you wont change mind. If the club were to poach him, which I doubt he'd move personally, only thing that you, EB, Capcom et al can do is stop supporting the Blues in protest I suppose.

Since you referenced me, I'm gonna leave this one alone GTC.  To history and judgement. 

From those who were there ... the inbred trademark of my hatred for anything Balme.

 
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 13, 2021, 11:27:54 pm
How much damage did Diesel and Rhys do behind play to others and yet they are favourite sons. In any case, no point arguing over it, I wont change your mind(s) and you wont change mind. If the club were to poach him, which I doubt he'd move personally, only thing that you, EB, Capcom et al can do is stop supporting the Blues in protest I suppose.
Diesel and Rhys  beat up on each other more often than not and on other similar types...ie Denham, Banks.....like for like types.
Balme was a coward, he attacked the ball playing gentleman that was Geoff Southby who never beat up on anyone but himself mentally...he never recovered from that attack and was never the same player. The low life Balme never even had the decency to apologize unlike Southby who had good things to say about Balmes contribution to the game.
There was a story that Percy Jones invited Balme to a lunch as a guest speaker at his pub I presume.....he invited Geoff Southby who I think politely declined, Percy also invited David McKay another victim of Balmes handy work and one of Southbys best mates....Swan declined as well but was reported as saying along the lines to Perc... I wont be coming but when you see Balme you can go and tell him to get fecked.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Macca37 on June 14, 2021, 12:37:29 am
How much damage did Diesel and Rhys do behind play to others and yet they are favourite sons. In any case, no point arguing over it, I wont change your mind(s) and you wont change mind. If the club were to poach him, which I doubt he'd move personally, only thing that you, EB, Capcom et al can do is stop supporting the Blues in protest I suppose.

Speaking for myself, your supposition is incorrect.  If the club were unfortunate enough to poach Balme I would accept the decision and continue supporting the club.

The cowardly and deliberate punch by Balme breaking Southby's jaw ensured that Southby was never the same player again.

Are you able to point to any action on field by Diesel or Rhys Jones that comes close?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: RiverRat on June 14, 2021, 12:50:40 am
@RiverRat
I’ve searched several times but cannot find the names.
Faceless and anonymous
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 14, 2021, 08:01:28 am
Guys Chillax abit, I am merely trying to point out that the club will not consult us supporters on the character of any of the candidates they may or may not appoint. I am not questioning any of your judgements or opinions. I hope that clarifies as I have much respect for the likes of EB, Capcom, Macca et al.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Professer E on June 14, 2021, 08:08:34 am
Balme would never come to Carlton,  the perception he has always given is that he regards us akin to something you'd avoid stepping in on your front lawn.   Roos, another football "messiah", is the same.  And why would they,  considering the entrenched culture of mediocrity? 
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 14, 2021, 08:24:40 am
Balme would never come to Carlton,  the perception he has always given is that he regards us akin to something you'd avoid stepping in on your front lawn.   Roos, another football "messiah", is the same.  And why would they,  considering the entrenched culture of mediocrity? 
Quite a powerful statement that, think about how many people (coaches, assistants, CEOs, Footy Managers etc) have come through the doors over a period of time and had a crack, yet still, we cant seem to be snapped out of this apparent "funk". Who or what is going to change it this time?
 
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Professer E on June 14, 2021, 09:21:55 am
Sorry,  phone ate my post.

I think it underlines the fact that the club is close to rock bottom, culturally, and bringing in outsiders to "magically fix it" (I can't express this elegantly) is misguided.  I think we need to develop our own Balme or Roos or Clarkson internally, not hire somebody else because that's what we've always done.   My Amos it Teague is that person?
  And except for Barassi and Parkin, 50 years ago,  it's never worked.  So,  I reckon this review is basically a waste of time other than it allows us it reset our thinking and attitude, kind of a penny drops moment.

I think a lot of the answers have actually been expressed in this site in the previous week - the playing group itself can do a helluva lot to turn this around I reckon - as pointed out by kruddler I think,  develop a feral mindset for hunting the opposition to pressure,  tackle and harass.  There's your defensive pressure.   Play harder and not nice and friendly. That would have won us at least three more games this year.

Sure,  our coaching staff need to wise up as well,  but I don't think we're far away and it could turn around fast,  but it's going to take a massive shift in mindset and attitude for it to do so (= culture) .   Otherwise we are going to be doomed to mediocrity for ever.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 14, 2021, 09:49:16 am
Guys Chillax abit, I am merely trying to point out that the club will not consult us supporters on the character of any of the candidates they may or may not appoint. I am not questioning any of your judgements or opinions. I hope that clarifies as I have much respect for the likes of EB, Capcom, Macca et al.
All good GTC, Just the mention of Balmes name gets my Blood Pressure up. Seeing him successful with Richmond just makes it worse. I'm not into messiahs but if we have to have one I would go with Ross Lyon who has been at Carlton before and get someone like Choco Williams on board too.
A couple of weirdos might be what we need..
My preference is to continue with DT for stability but I think the pressure won't lift on him or the club unless he gets a 3 year extension and I don't see that happening.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on June 14, 2021, 10:15:41 am
Agree completely @ElwoodBlues1 ... you're still a mate @Gointocarlton

You certainly didn't tread on my toes brother.  Just don't mention Mal Brown or nuts kicker Francis Bourke. :))
Title: Re: Review
Post by: crashlander on June 14, 2021, 11:07:56 am
I was at the ground the day Balme broke Southby's jaw - an absolute mongrel act. 

It made sure we lost the grand final.  Kevin Hall had to be moved from the half back flank to full back.  Carlton players forgot the ball and spent the game trying to even up with Balme.

For those who say we should forgive because, after all, it was a long time ago, I just say "You had to be there".
I was there as well. I find Balme very difficult to stomach.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 14, 2021, 11:26:51 am
Are you able to point to any action on field by Diesel or Rhys Jones that comes close?
Hmm, perhaps when Diesel broke The Hyphen's jaw in the bottom of that pack!

Diesel could handball the footy with pin point precision over 30m through traffic and a mesh of opponents while being tackled and under duress, but from just an arm length away kneeling on stable ground besides an opponent he missed the footy completely and caught the jaw squarely!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: WASurfer on June 14, 2021, 11:43:37 am
Not for one second questioning the appointment of Matthew Pavlich to this review "committee"......comes across as very intelligent and footy smart guy. But if he's not actually able to travel back and forwards from Perth to Melbourne for a lot of the process because of COVID restrictions, surely that makes things a little bit harder? I would've thought you'd need to be right there at the coal face, talking to players and everyone else? I know in this modern world of Zoom meetings etc it happens every day, but just wouldn't have thought it's ideal?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Macca37 on June 14, 2021, 12:09:48 pm
Guys Chillax abit, I am merely trying to point out that the club will not consult us supporters on the character of any of the candidates they may or may not appoint. I am not questioning any of your judgements or opinions. I hope that clarifies as I have much respect for the likes of EB, Capcom, Macca et al.

All good GTC
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 14, 2021, 12:38:12 pm
He can become the next Pope or Dalai Lama but he can never make amends for what he did to Geoff Southby...

It's 50 years gone , Southby forgave him years ago and they get on ok. We were happy to take Diesel after what he did to Rhys-Jones and plenty are talking up Clarko for coach despite what he did to Ian Aikten.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 14, 2021, 12:46:37 pm
It's 50 years gone , Southby forgave him years ago and they get on ok.
I'm with Swan McKay on the issue of Balme...Geoff Southby is just a very decent human who is very forgiving, I cant let those things go. Its interesting that Ian Aitken cant forgive Clarkson either...
Maybe thats why I have a preference for Ross Lyon too if we  have to change coach, Clarkson is up there with Balme IMO as a little gutter rat..
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 14, 2021, 12:46:55 pm
It's 50 years gone , Southby forgave him years ago and they get on ok. We were happy to take Diesel after what he did to Rhys-Jones and plenty are talking up Clarko for coach despite what he did to Ian Aikten.
If you listen to the rumour mill, we could up with Clarko, Balme and Diesel at the club.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 14, 2021, 01:55:00 pm
We've had our fair share of enforcers, and opposition supporters would have similar stories to us.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 14, 2021, 02:03:34 pm
Not for one second questioning the appointment of Matthew Pavlich to this review "committee"......comes across as very intelligent and footy smart guy. But if he's not actually able to travel back and forwards from Perth to Melbourne for a lot of the process because of COVID restrictions, surely that makes things a little bit harder? I would've thought you'd need to be right there at the coal face, talking to players and everyone else? I know in this modern world of Zoom meetings etc it happens every day, but just wouldn't have thought it's ideal?

It depends what the review is for.

I.e. we don't need him to observe people in action, but the role and its KPIs and how our football department is structured.   How the staff feel about their role at the club and what their PD should look like.

Thats very corporate structure and governance and high performance related rather than individual.

I think we as fans are very old fashioned in our thinking regarding footy clubs.

These are more your corporate structures and role and responsibility related reviews.

Really, we probably should have done this before making the call on SOS.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 14, 2021, 05:30:18 pm
Can someone please enlighten me as to who are the personnel on our match committee ?

I’m interested in how much attention will be payed to them in this review…

From Pav...
Quote
“It’s a review of the entire football department. Their sports science, their football program, their leadership and culture, the brand of football they’re playing, the whole team dynamic, but also the mechanics that exist within a football club. There’s lots to consider.”
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/06/13/matthew-pavlich-provides-insight-into-upcoming-carlton-review/
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Sexybronco on June 14, 2021, 06:23:20 pm
From Pav...https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/06/13/matthew-pavlich-provides-insight-into-upcoming-carlton-review/
Gonna take years to unravel all that, can’t we just sack our coach and move on?😜
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 14, 2021, 06:53:39 pm
From the article :

“It’s all came together pretty quickly. This time last week I’d had one phone conversation with the Blues about a potential role,” Pavlich told SEN WA.
“That’s moved really quickly here. I’m looking forward to the opportunity having done a similar review at the Crows a few years ago now.
“We’re probably going to get started on that tomorrow briefly and broadly in terms of forming some methodology about how we go about it.
“There’s a bit to work through in regards to COVID and whether I can get to Melbourne and get back and all those things. We’re working through that as we speak.
“I think the heavy lifting will be done early days by Geoff and Graham over there in Melbourne.”
………………………………………….
Pavlich gave some specifics as to what the review will be looking at.
“I haven’t got a view. I haven’t really seen much of Carlton play this year outside of watching them on television,” he said.


Yep, that inspires real confidence. Crisis management, Carlton style.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 14, 2021, 07:24:10 pm
From the article :

“It’s all came together pretty quickly. This time last week I’d had one phone conversation with the Blues about a potential role,” Pavlich told SEN WA.
“That’s moved really quickly here. I’m looking forward to the opportunity having done a similar review at the Crows a few years ago now.
“We’re probably going to get started on that tomorrow briefly and broadly in terms of forming some methodology about how we go about it.
“There’s a bit to work through in regards to COVID and whether I can get to Melbourne and get back and all those things. We’re working through that as we speak.
“I think the heavy lifting will be done early days by Geoff and Graham over there in Melbourne.”
………………………………………….
Pavlich gave some specifics as to what the review will be looking at.
“I haven’t got a view. I haven’t really seen much of Carlton play this year outside of watching them on television,” he said.


Yep, that inspires real confidence. Crisis management, Carlton style.
Have faith, give it a go.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 14, 2021, 07:47:22 pm
From the article :

“It’s all came together pretty quickly. This time last week I’d had one phone conversation with the Blues about a potential role,” Pavlich told SEN WA.
“That’s moved really quickly here. I’m looking forward to the opportunity having done a similar review at the Crows a few years ago now.
“We’re probably going to get started on that tomorrow briefly and broadly in terms of forming some methodology about how we go about it.
“There’s a bit to work through in regards to COVID and whether I can get to Melbourne and get back and all those things. We’re working through that as we speak.
“I think the heavy lifting will be done early days by Geoff and Graham over there in Melbourne.”
………………………………………….
Pavlich gave some specifics as to what the review will be looking at.
“I haven’t got a view. I haven’t really seen much of Carlton play this year outside of watching them on television,” he said.


Yep, that inspires real confidence. Crisis management, Carlton style.

As much as it doesn't insure confidence it has to begin somewhere.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Milhanna13 on June 14, 2021, 07:52:30 pm
As much as it doesn't insure confidence it has to begin somewhere.

Yeah, at least they aren’t stuffing around trying to scope out the review, you could spend months doing that.  Just dive in and don’t waste time
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 14, 2021, 08:46:52 pm
Leaked footage of the first day of the review.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMqoJG6GDdw
Title: Re: Review
Post by: northernblue on June 14, 2021, 10:44:57 pm
From Pav...https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/06/13/matthew-pavlich-provides-insight-into-upcoming-carlton-review/

What I want to know is who is picking our team each week ?
Who is our chairman of selectors ?
Who is on the selection committee ?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: northernblue on June 14, 2021, 10:48:11 pm
I’ve also been wondering how the Richmond bloke is sleeping at night…?
He must be tossing and turning and not getting a wink of sleep worrying about the conflict of interest with Geoff doing this review…
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 14, 2021, 11:00:18 pm
I’ve also been wondering how the Richmond bloke is sleeping at night…?
He must be tossing and turning and not getting a wink of sleep worrying about the conflict of interest with Geoff doing this review…

Why the conflict NB?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 14, 2021, 11:03:09 pm
What I want to know is who is picking our team each week ?
Who is our chairman of selectors ?
Who is on the selection committee ?
I read somewhere there is no chairman of selectors anymore, its a position no one uses anymore (but I'll stand corrected). I would guess the selection committee is made up of all the coaches (head and line), Russell and maybe Brad Lloyd.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: dodge on June 14, 2021, 11:16:37 pm
Going back a bit - so what if Dunstall knocked us back?

Without knowing, I would think Luke Sayers is a pretty hard taskmaster - CEO of PWC - you need to be make sure you are able to make money for all the partners/directors, whatever they call them now.  He has also recruited a pretty big and handy team for his new enterprise.

Game plan questions could be as easy as What is the gameplan?  Why does it work? Why doesn't it work?  doesn't matter if reviewers haven't watched us play in the flesh.

I would imagine that Pav would have a few blocks of time in Melbourne - face to face gives much better visual signals than online.

Maybe part of the reason for the review now is for Sayers' understanding of exactly where we are and wants to be prepared when he has to ' roll his sleeves up'.

It was interesting on the wireless (774) over the weekend, I heard someone talking about Fagan and how he developed culture first (which is also what Noble is trying) - be a good start!  Also, that in recruiting all the GWS stars at the start, they took the best available and not a balanced approach, resulting in a lot of midfielders becoming defenders and not being the most happy...
Title: Re: Review
Post by: northernblue on June 14, 2021, 11:21:11 pm
I read somewhere there is no chairman of selectors anymore, its a position no one uses anymore (but I'll stand corrected). I would guess the selection committee is made up of all the coaches (head and line), Russell and maybe Brad Lloyd.

Interesting G2C, I was hoping that the line coaches weren’t involved directly in selection…
Imagine that our line coaches are selecting the players THEY want and we are performing as we are !
If the coaches were having players foisted upon them and having to “make do” with that, it would seemingly be a reasonably easy correction to allow them more input into the squad, I hope you’re wrong…
Title: Re: Review
Post by: northernblue on June 14, 2021, 11:27:10 pm
Why the conflict NB?


In the eyes of the Richmond bloke there was conflict with 3 x Silvagni’s at the club so 2 had to go, now there’s 2 Walshes and one of them might wield the hatchet @ some of the Richmond blokes mates…
I can imagine the conversation over breakfast “How are the coaches Sam ?” “I don’t rate X” “Mmmm Interesting…” “What about Lloydy ?”
Title: Re: Review
Post by: dodge on June 14, 2021, 11:35:03 pm
How are they related, other than common surname?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 14, 2021, 11:36:34 pm
Caro suggested the review isn't independent with Sayers and Liddle presiding over events. Suggested Liddle should be reviewed and that Brad Lloyd should be concerned.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: northernblue on June 14, 2021, 11:37:09 pm
How are they related, other than common surname?

Father and son I believe…
Geoff was formerly @ Collingwood in their recuiting dept.

My bad, Sam’s father is Wayne Walsh 🙄
Title: Re: Review
Post by: dodge on June 14, 2021, 11:42:11 pm
Sam's dad is Wayne?

https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/262211/walsh-family-full-of-pride

Title: Re: Review
Post by: Mantis on June 15, 2021, 12:20:49 am
Caro suggested the review isn't independent with Sayers and Liddle presiding over events. Suggested Liddle should be reviewed and that Brad Lloyd should be concerned.

Barrett considers St Kilda and Gold Coast need a review also, from top to bottom. The AFL match review on incidents on field. It all has reason for concern. I do agree that Liddle needs to be part of the review. Not part of the independent panel that conduct the review. Let’s be honest. If the job is to highlight shortcomings and areas to change, improve, tweak or leave as it is, you can’t be of no bias if you are not judged for your contribution to the lack of performance and result. Correct me if I am a feckhead. Not being judgmental, but asking the question. Why is Liddle part of the panel? I wonder who instigated this review, and who is in control of which heads will roll? Lloyd might be in trouble by what the media suggest. Might be a very interesting few weeks in footy. If we lose to GWS next, the crap might just hit the media with more intensity.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: 31Tommys_barber on June 15, 2021, 02:11:34 am
Pity Wes Lofts isn’t around anymore, best Chairman of Selectors we ever had.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on June 15, 2021, 08:11:42 am
What I want to know is who is picking our team each week ?
Who is our chairman of selectors ?
Who is on the selection committee ?

It's really difficult to find the current match committee, but I found the one from 2000 (courtesy of Blueseum)...and that tells a bit of a story.

2000 - Stephen Kernahan Chairman (that would probably be someone in the Judd or more likely Lloyd position these days), David Parkin, Wayne Brittain, John Worsfold, Barry Mitchell, Ross Lyon.

So it looks like a football dept head, the Senior coach, Assistants....and the runner (Mitchell)
I thought the runner being on the Match Committee was a bit strange but it makes a bit of sense if they're there in an observer role when selections and matchups are being discussed.
Mitchell's experience and input was obviously appreciated because he took over the Bullants side a few years later.

Just as an aside Mitchell was apparently pretty tight with Brittain. By reports, his relationship with Pagan was a bit of disaster so there would have been that disconnect between the seniors and our VFL affiliate during those times.




Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 15, 2021, 10:00:01 am
It's really difficult to find the current match committee, ............
This reeks of Liddle having some fingers in the pie ..................... with a side order of obfuscation, ................. you can't blame someone you can't identify!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 15, 2021, 10:24:45 am
Caro suggested the review isn't independent with Sayers and Liddle presiding over events. Suggested Liddle should be reviewed and that Brad Lloyd should be concerned.
Agree
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 15, 2021, 10:26:51 am
It's really difficult to find the current match committee, but I found the one from 2000 (courtesy of Blueseum)...and that tells a bit of a story.

2000 - Stephen Kernahan Chairman (that would probably be someone in the Judd or more likely Lloyd position these days), David Parkin, Wayne Brittain, John Worsfold, Barry Mitchell, Ross Lyon.

So it looks like a football dept head, the Senior coach, Assistants....and the runner (Mitchell)
I thought the runner being on the Match Committee was a bit strange but it makes a bit of sense if they're there in an observer role when selections and matchups are being discussed.
Mitchell's experience and input was obviously appreciated because he took over the Bullants side a few years later.

Just as an aside Mitchell was apparently pretty tight with Brittain. By reports, his relationship with Pagan was a bit of disaster so there would have been that disconnect between the seniors and our VFL affiliate during those times.





IIRC, Chairman of Selectors had the final say when there was a split decision. There is no such thing now.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Milhanna13 on June 15, 2021, 01:00:53 pm
Just as an aside Mitchell was apparently pretty tight with Brittain. By reports, his relationship with Pagan was a bit of disaster so there would have been that disconnect between the seniors and our VFL affiliate during those times.






You could say that - Pagan had Mitchell's office moved to the other side of PP........ in a diff stand.....  yeah, I dont think Pagan liked him!!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 15, 2021, 06:02:45 pm
https://www.triplem.com.au/story/pressure-building-at-carlton-as-external-review-begins-175952

5 min 40, some of which is filler.

Daisy Thomas, Barrett, Carey, Joey Montagna. Daisy's comments are worth a couple of minutes of your time IMO.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on June 16, 2021, 10:13:32 am
It will be interesting to see how long the review takes.
Pavlich's comments seem to indicate it will be quite comprehensive.
Some aspects of the football department function may spill over into other areas and raise a few issues for other sections of the club.
The transparency and how recommendations are dealt with will be interesting.

You would think we're probably looking at a time frame of around at least 4-6 weeks to gather information, given the number of people they need to speak to, and the movement of players and officials involved with the fixtures all over the shop at the moment.
It might be hard to tie a few folks down.

Compiling, discussion and reporting may extend that time frame, but if, as is likely, there are issues surrounding the assistant coaches they may need to be fast tracked as their positions for next year will need to  be confirmed.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 16, 2021, 10:28:48 am
Re-sign Cripps, get that announced soon, and the interest in this review evaporates, it'll barely get a run in the media now that Big H has also signed!

It'll  only be the crap stirrers that try.

There will be even less interest if we win a game or two in the coming weeks.

In some respects, I think this review timing is quite tactical, they give the MC the all clear now and even if the 2nd half of the season turns to dust the review is done and dusted buying them another season. After this review no matter what happens by seasons end they won't take significant action again for at least 12 months.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on June 16, 2021, 10:35:41 am
It will be interesting to see how long the review takes.
Pavlich's comments seem to indicate it will be quite comprehensive.
Some aspects of the football department function may spill over into other areas and raise a few issues for other sections of the club.
The transparency and how recommendations are dealt with will be interesting.

You would think we're probably looking at a time frame of around at least 4-6 weeks to gather information, given the number of people they need to speak to, and the movement of players and officials involved with the fixtures all over the shop at the moment.
It might be hard to tie a few folks down.

Compiling, discussion and reporting may extend that time frame, but if, as is likely, there are issues surrounding the assistant coaches they may need to be fast tracked as their positions for next year will need to  be confirmed.

Agree... and Sayers doesn't seem to be the sort of cat who's into 'papering over cracks', so, comprehensive is a good word - and comprehensive it must be. If it spills into other areas of the club - good. If there is need for strong change, good.

I'm looking forward to seeing what they unearth.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 16, 2021, 10:43:15 am
On a side note, really impressed with Harry's leadership this season.

He is still a relatively young lad, and he seems to be wanting to impose himself on the contest.

The highlight of this season probably for him, club and supporters, was his decision to own the kick from outside of 50 against Hawthorn, and duly go back and slot it.

Consistency still a bit of a concern, but an evaporating one.

Shows real character, and the easiest thing to do was postpone his decision to sign with us again, and the fact that he did so in such tumultuous circumstances is a testament to the young lads maturity.

Bravo Harry, and we should also give credit to the footy club where its due.  We have done well not to bleed too much talent given the way we operate.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 16, 2021, 11:12:03 am
Standard corporate tactics.

The incumbent makes the cuts, takes the hit gets a bonus for slashing the fat.

The successor initiates a review, makes some cursory changes, takes the credit for the upswing which was already underway, gets a bonus for turning things around when the incumbent couldn't.

Notice the outcome, nobody ever fails to get a bonus!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 17, 2021, 07:41:17 am
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/you-don-t-do-a-review-then-punt-the-property-steward-why-big-change-is-afoot-at-carlton-20210615-p581a5.html
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on June 17, 2021, 08:27:07 am
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/you-don-t-do-a-review-then-punt-the-property-steward-why-big-change-is-afoot-at-carlton-20210615-p581a5.html

Just finished reading this article - excellent stuff. Important points raised and information provided.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on June 17, 2021, 09:08:59 am
So we're having a review, why?
There seems to be a lot of different opinions on this one.
To summarise...

1) Sayers wants to make a clear distinction between his presidency and the previous one. He wants to present an image to supporters that he is a man who is not afraid to take action if necessary.
2) Sayer’s has gone off ‘half-cocked’ based on a couple of conversations with players.
3) This is the review we had to have.
4) It’s the review we had to have but the timing is a bit off and it ‘could have, should have’ waited until seasons end.
5) It’s the review we had to have, but it should look at all aspects of the club operation rather than just the football department.
6) The review comes at a strange time given we have a much better second half draw and players coming back from injury. There is a danger we could end up looking a bit panicky and silly by season’s end.
7) It’s a time buying exercise designed to temporarily ease pressure and give the impression the club is responding to supporter’s concerns.
8 ) We don’t need to review anything, we’re tracking fine. It's just taking a bit of time for things to gel, but once we get games into players together and a few players back from injury things will turn quickly.

The bizarre thing about this one is that you could just about make a solid case for any one of those options...or a combination of those options.




Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 17, 2021, 09:14:25 am
Just finished reading this article - excellent stuff. Important points raised and information provided.

I thought so as well.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 17, 2021, 09:24:59 am
@Lods...
I think 6 is directed at me, but a few others ring true to what i've been saying as well.

I think there is one that isn't really covered, which i've suggested as well.

Just because we are having a review, it doesn't mean its going to work. It may make things worse. We may cut the wrong guy. For all we know, Barker was the wrong guy. He may have been the glue holding everything together. He may have been the mediator.

Whatever happens from here is going to get a different picture of what its been like over the past 18 months. Now people are going to be doing differernt roles, covering for Barker, and after only 2 weeks of doing that, a routine and/or stress levels are yet to be found. Any review based on this state of flux will most likely be an inaccurate one.

One thing worth noting was from the PaulPs article was that in each major independent review in recent history, the GM of football has gone. As best as i can tell that is Brad Lloyd. Given Matthew Lloyds new found knowledge of how all things Carlton seem to be going, i'd suggest Brads job is very much on the line.....and rightly so.....despite Matthew Lloyds protesting.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 17, 2021, 10:13:58 am
@Lods...
I think 6 is directed at me, but a few others ring true to what i've been saying as well.

I think there is one that isn't really covered, which i've suggested as well.

Just because we are having a review, it doesn't mean its going to work. It may make things worse. We may cut the wrong guy. For all we know, Barker was the wrong guy. He may have been the glue holding everything together. He may have been the mediator.

Whatever happens from here is going to get a different picture of what its been like over the past 18 months. Now people are going to be doing differernt roles, covering for Barker, and after only 2 weeks of doing that, a routine and/or stress levels are yet to be found. Any review based on this state of flux will most likely be an inaccurate one.

One thing worth noting was from the PaulPs article was that in each major independent review in recent history, the GM of football has gone. As best as i can tell that is Brad Lloyd. Given Matthew Lloyds new found knowledge of how all things Carlton seem to be going, i'd suggest Brads job is very much on the line.....and rightly so.....despite Matthew Lloyds protesting.
Going to be hard to review Lloyd properly with Liddle providing cover, same with the other member of the trinity in Agresta. With Liddle overseeing proceedings with Sayers it isn't truly Independent and as you say it doesn't mean a Review is the magic wand for success.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 17, 2021, 10:50:11 am
Going to be hard to review Lloyd properly with Liddle providing cover, same with the other member of the trinity in Agresta. With Liddle overseeing proceedings with Sayers it isn't truly Independent and as you say it doesn't mean a Review is the magic wand for success.
Lets not confuse overseeing with influencing. I expect to the the 3 external amigos to review and make recommendations irrespective of what the Richmond Bloke or Sayers think. I cannot see them being intimidated into a result by a schmuck like Baldylocks.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: raven on June 17, 2021, 10:51:20 am
Interesting info in here too, thought posting it in this thread most suitable.

Doesn't paint Cripps in a great light, mind you limited ruck talent doesn't help either re feeding your mids.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-17/what-has-gone-wrong-with-carlton-this-year/100218856
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 17, 2021, 11:05:17 am
Interesting info in here too, thought posting it in this thread most suitable.

Doesn't paint Cripps in a great light, mind you limited ruck talent doesn't help either re feeding your mids.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-17/what-has-gone-wrong-with-carlton-this-year/100218856

Those figures are somewhat skewed because he was running at about 50% for the start of the year.

A few points worth noting...
1. Meters gained for Cripps will always be done compared to most because he has a high handball to kick ratio.
2. His turnovers will be lower because he has a high handball to kick ratio. We don't want him being more adventurous, we want him to handball to a teammate....not kick.
3. His clearances will be 'on par' with most because he was injured early and because he is being tagged....sometimes by more than 1 player. Some of the other players with higher clearance rates have Elite rucks like Gawn giving them first use. Its not simply about Cripps, but those around him that can affect his numbers.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on June 17, 2021, 11:10:43 am
@Lods...
I think 6 is directed at me, but a few others ring true to what i've been saying as well.

Not just at you Kruds, although you've laid out a logical reason why we could finish with more wins in the second half.
There are quite a few across the various Carlton forums and pages that think we will be much better in the second half. and they're also pointing at things like easier opposition and the improved injury situation.

The interesting one for me is the media aren't embracing this theory.
They're dining out on "Crisis at Carlton"
But wait and see them pounce on us if things are better.
it will be "Silly old Carlton, jumping at shadows and turning the joint upside down for no reason.  Anyone could see they were going to come good"
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 17, 2021, 11:29:53 am
Interesting reading:

Quote
The best reviews are where the staff in the department feel the review is for the department, not on the department. That the reviewer is there to make everyone better rather than look for scapegoats. This requires great communication, relationships and explanation of the nuance. It feels as though this horse may have bolted with the Carlton process and it will require strong leadership to bring it back.

Now articles in the newspaper are a bit non genuine.

"you dont do a review and then sack the boot studder"

makes it out to show that a review is there to review people.

They arent.  These consultants are brought in regularly across all works of life, to check what people do, and how they do it, and whether or not the PROCESS, STRUCTURE and RESPONSIBLITIES measure up with the currently leading standards of who, what, where, when and how in terms of running a football club.

This will review the people indirectly, and give them reasons to see what isnt working, and how to fix.

This process is one of identification, not one of excuses.

Our club has earned the mantle of needing a reason to sack a coach, but I suspect this is a bit different based on the statements made by liddle and co, and just by the sheer volume of turnover we have had.

When you change all the people and things still dont work, at some point, you need to look beyond the people and how the place runs. 
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on June 17, 2021, 06:22:48 pm
So we're having a review, why?
There seems to be a lot of different opinions on this one.
To summarise...

1) Sayers wants to make a clear distinction between his presidency and the previous one. He wants to present an image to supporters that he is a man who is not afraid to take action if necessary.
2) Sayer’s has gone off ‘half-cocked’ based on a couple of conversations with players.
3) This is the review we had to have.
4) It’s the review we had to have but the timing is a bit off and it ‘could have, should have’ waited until seasons end.
5) It’s the review we had to have, but it should look at all aspects of the club operation rather than just the football department.
6) The review comes at a strange time given we have a much better second half draw and players coming back from injury. There is a danger we could end up looking a bit panicky and silly by season’s end.
7) It’s a time buying exercise designed to temporarily ease pressure and give the impression the club is responding to supporter’s concerns.
8 ) We don’t need to review anything, we’re tracking fine. It's just taking a bit of time for things to gel, but once we get games into players together and a few players back from injury things will turn quickly.

The bizarre thing about this one is that you could just about make a solid case for any one of those options...or a combination of those options.






9. The incoming Pres has knowledge that we're not aware of/spoke to many more folks than indicated in the media and is a personality type not given to sitting on a problem when clearly presented - a man inclined to action, especially when it can positively impact on-field performance sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 18, 2021, 06:48:59 am
Give our Tribunal Advocates the ar5e!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on June 18, 2021, 07:31:52 am
It took them three hours to arrive at a decision !?!?!?

Title: Re: Review
Post by: IvanAwfulbigone on June 18, 2021, 07:34:40 am
Give our Tribunal Advocates the ar5e!
Outrageous verdicts by the Tribunal.
You can’t tell me Mackay braced for impact any less than Plowman did. Watch Mackay’s eyes - he takes them OFF the ball.

Plowman AND Mackay suspended? Me happy.
Plowman AND Mackay exonerated? Me less happy.
Plowman suspended and Mackay exonerated? OUTRAGEOUS!!!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Professer E on June 18, 2021, 07:48:07 am
How do you feel about the Williams suspension now?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on June 18, 2021, 08:38:19 am
I think the AFL and the MRO both need an independent review. Urgently.

They want the game faster yet claim to be clamping down on head-high contact. Well guess what AFL, collective heads of immaculate density, in a physical contact sport where it is made faster the head contacts run the risk of being worse - more concussions. What do other sports with high contact do... headgear. Modern science must be able to come up with a comfortable, thin, high absorbent material head protection which will reduce some concussions to zero and bad ones to less harmful. Oh, hang on, Gil is into pretty/appearances... no room for practicality. If I had a son/daughter who was playing AFL/W I would strongly suggest to him or her to wear protective headgear.

As for last night's decision... holy cr@p. Plow goes because they claim he did not have eyes for the aggott, Mackay gets off because they believe it was an honest contest for the pill. Did anyone else notice Mackay become airborne to ensure he hit his opponent flush with his shoulder??? And his opponent was in a more vulnerable position! A great pile of steamy bullshizen... inconsistency 101.

How confused must the players be... many will be watching the Mackay hit over and over to ensure they emulate that kind of collision so they get off. Der.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: cookie2 on June 18, 2021, 08:40:58 am
The AFL continue to make it up as they go along. Nature of the beast. Consistency is not a concept familiar to them.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 22, 2021, 02:04:58 pm
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/carlton-blues/afl-news-2021-carlton-blues-review-football-department-david-teague-coach-contract-jason-dunstall/news-story/326fce75a0e8dfbd0dc6f2863cecb4ca

Dunstall is one of the few in the media worth listening to IMO.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 22, 2021, 02:35:09 pm
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/carlton-blues/afl-news-2021-carlton-blues-review-football-department-david-teague-coach-contract-jason-dunstall/news-story/326fce75a0e8dfbd0dc6f2863cecb4ca

Dunstall is one of the few in the media worth listening to IMO.
I heard Malcom Speed on SEN this morning, brilliant. He spoke of the Richmond review which was not made public like many others have been. Gale presented it to the board, they all read it on the spot, they discussed it at length and then handed it back to Gale at the end of the meeting. No leaks, no publishing of it, just decide on the action plan resulting from it and get on with it.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 22, 2021, 02:51:26 pm
I heard Malcom Speed on SEN this morning, brilliant. He spoke of the Richmond review which was not made public like many others have been. Gale presented it to the board, they all read it on the spot, they discussed it at length and then handed it back to Gale at the end of the meeting. No leaks, no publishing of it, just decide on the action plan resulting from it and get on with it.

Wow, what is that exactly ? it's like, errrrr....................professionalism or something ? For those at the mighty CFC, it is, as Bob Dylan said, "a foreign sound to your ear."
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 22, 2021, 02:56:44 pm
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/carlton-blues/afl-news-2021-carlton-blues-review-football-department-david-teague-coach-contract-jason-dunstall/news-story/326fce75a0e8dfbd0dc6f2863cecb4ca

Dunstall is one of the few in the media worth listening to IMO.
I believe he's knocked Carlton back twice, yet he still has the cohunes to tell us what to do!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on June 22, 2021, 03:46:29 pm
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/carlton-blues/afl-news-2021-carlton-blues-review-football-department-david-teague-coach-contract-jason-dunstall/news-story/326fce75a0e8dfbd0dc6f2863cecb4ca

Dunstall is one of the few in the media worth listening to IMO.

Spot on from J Dunstall. You'd reasonably expect the review to be finished just prior to season's end... then make the changes.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 23, 2021, 02:15:10 pm
I really hope Pavlich will take learnings from the Adelaide Crows review and rips the Board a new one, even though it's not in his remit. The Crows review was prompted by the disastrous camp, and plenty across the board, executive, football department etc. fell on their sword. I'm not convinced focussing solely on the footy department will get to the bottom of the problems.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 23, 2021, 02:20:03 pm
I came across a Footy Classified clip from yesterday on my YT auto suggestions, and against my better judgment, I watched a few minutes. They made the point that no one at our club, at any level (Board, Executive, Coach, players) has come out better than when they came in. Except maybe Judd. All coaches, players, Executive etc. have their reputations tarnished after working with us. They're saying that even Andrew Russell is now looking average. Great.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Shakin77 on June 23, 2021, 02:33:08 pm
I really hope Pavlich will take learnings from the Adelaide Crows review and rips the Board a new one, even though it's not in his remit. The Crows review was prompted by the disastrous camp, and plenty across the board, executive, football department etc. fell on their sword. I'm not convinced focussing solely on the footy department will get to the bottom of the problems.

Agree 100%.

There is something fundamentally wrong at the Blues.

I have no idea on Teague and if he is a good coach or not.    While I am not happy from outside perspective, I reckon you really need to be inside the four walls to have a great understanding of what is going on.

Saying that however the decision to hire Teague is one that baffles me.  Under Bolton it was clear we had development as the number one focus.   Samo, Dow and co playing midfield.    E.Curnow half forward flank and Murphy on a wing.    Development was clearly before wins.  

They sack Bolton and Teague gets the gig and the focus changes to wins.   Curnow and Murphy spend more time in the middle.    

We win more games.  No real surprise in hindsight.   No issue with sacking Bolton but the knee jerk reaction to hire Teague without  going through the process of interview other coaches boggles my mind.   What was the rush?   It's not like he was in hot demand?

We tend to be in such a rush.    The decision to recruit Williams on superstar money looks to be another.

It's not just the football department I would be looking at.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 23, 2021, 02:53:40 pm
Shakin77, at the time he was appointed, it was noted that the cub did extensive personality profiling with Teague and the players, and he was declared a near perfect fit. I thought they were having a lend, but apparently not.

I think they were seduced by the caretaker coach success, and probably bowed to fan and media pressure as much as anything. Typical Carlton. Talk tough, but wilt very quickly when any heat is applied. And maybe there was no one else.

Judd seems to be the only one on that board who has any sense, certainly the only one who understands football. He was sceptical about Teague, and maybe he was right. It looks like he's had enough of dealing with those mugs, and wants out. And who could blame him ?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 23, 2021, 02:55:56 pm
I found the article :

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/how-teague-got-the-full-time-job-at-carlton-20190815-p52hgq.html
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 23, 2021, 03:51:25 pm
Shakin77, at the time he was appointed, it was noted that the cub did extensive personality profiling with Teague and the players, and he was declared a near perfect fit. I thought they were having a lend, but apparently not.

I think they were seduced by the caretaker coach success, and probably bowed to fan and media pressure as much as anything. Typical Carlton. Talk tough, but wilt very quickly when any heat is applied. And maybe there was no one else.

Judd seems to be the only one on that board who has any sense, certainly the only one who understands football. He was sceptical about Teague, and maybe he was right. It looks like he's had enough of dealing with those mugs, and wants out. And who could blame him ?
Judd is more interested in the stockmarket than football.
But you are right he probably feels vindicated after his training wheels comment.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 23, 2021, 04:35:50 pm
Judd is more interested in the stockmarket than football.
But you are right he probably feels vindicated after his training wheels comment.
 I'm always concerned that some of the more icy pole types will work hard at making their predictions come true just to be proven correct!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 23, 2021, 05:19:58 pm
I'm always concerned that some of the more icy pole types will work hard at making their predictions come true just to be proven correct!
Judd is a smart operator but not even he could engineer another debacle like we have on and off the field like at the minute....he is day trading so he just doesnt have the time to ponder football issues and is probably glad to be on the sidelines looking on.
Football has served its purpose for Judd and family and he was always destined for the business/finance world when his career ended..
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 23, 2021, 05:47:24 pm
Judd is a smart operator but not even he could engineer another debacle like we have on and off the field like at the minute....he is day trading so he just doesnt have the time to ponder football issues and is probably glad to be on the sidelines looking on.
Football has served it purpose for Judd and family and he was always destined for the business/finance world when his career ended..

Thats the political or company line answer, I suspect there is a little more to his departure.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 23, 2021, 06:04:40 pm
Thats the political or company line answer, I suspect there is a little more to his departure.
Think he was a mercenary, Caro got stuck into him and tried to bait him every week on Footy Class and Bec was also copping plenty through the media.Think he just wanted out...What was left for him in the world of football and media?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 23, 2021, 08:03:56 pm
Think he was a mercenary, Caro got stuck into him and tried to bait him every week on Footy Class and Bec was also copping plenty through the media.Think he just wanted out...What was left for him in the world of football and media?
Yep, Judd and Bec make far more dollar$ now than they ever would be media lackeys, they don't need it they are in a different league now!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Shakin77 on June 23, 2021, 08:19:25 pm
I found the article :

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/how-teague-got-the-full-time-job-at-carlton-20190815-p52hgq.html

Interesting read.   Cheers
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 23, 2021, 08:24:47 pm
Interesting read.   Cheers


👍
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Macca37 on June 23, 2021, 08:34:25 pm
I found the article :

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/how-teague-got-the-full-time-job-at-carlton-20190815-p52hgq.html

Thanks, Paul.  It's interesting how quickly expectations have been dashed.

I wonder whether the selection committee members saw Teague as the preferred coach before the interview and massaged the selection criteria to match their views.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 23, 2021, 08:40:01 pm
Teague can coach.

The question is, are we going to let him?

Do any other coaches see so much weight of expectation just on 2 years into their tenure with the whole covid situation bubbling along in the background?

It would be quite challenging and its almost a perfect storm for us as a footy club.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Macca37 on June 23, 2021, 08:46:58 pm
Teague can coach.

The question is, are we going to let him?

Do any other coaches see so much weight of expectation just on 2 years into their tenure with the whole covid situation bubbling along in the background?

It would be quite challenging and its almost a perfect storm for us as a footy club.

I just don't see him holding on.  The current list is unwilling or unable to follow his plan and further losses will put even more pressure on the board to offer hope to members.

Short of culling half the list I think Teague will be the sacrificial lamb. 
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 23, 2021, 09:18:07 pm
I just don't see him holding on.  The current list is unwilling or unable to follow his plan and further losses will put even more pressure on the board to offer hope to members.

Short of culling half the list I think Teague will be the sacrificial lamb. 

It hasn't worked before, and it won't work now.

Memo to the CFC : When you're in a hole, don't dig.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 23, 2021, 10:10:28 pm
Think he was a mercenary, Caro got stuck into him and tried to bait him every week on Footy Class and Bec was also copping plenty through the media.Think he just wanted out...What was left for him in the world of football and media?
Ive met him a few times through a mate at club functions, very nice bloke, very down to earth. My mate has business dealings, he speaks very highly of him.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: DJC on June 23, 2021, 11:39:10 pm
Teague can coach.

The question is, are we going to let him?

Do any other coaches see so much weight of expectation just on 2 years into their tenure with the whole covid situation bubbling along in the background?

It would be quite challenging and its almost a perfect storm for us as a footy club.

If Teague can coach at AFL level, why haven't we seen evidence of it.

I keep harping on about it but poor team selection, playing blokes out of position, persevering with a game plan that doesn't work (at least with the players we put on the park), poor preparation (in terms of matchups, tactics etc) and inability to change things during games aren't characteristics of someone who can coach.

All teams are affected by COVID so that's not really a factor but, yes, Teague has only been in the job for a little over two years.  Of course, Nicks, Rutten, Longmuir, Noble and Ratten haven't been in their jobs quite as long and, with the exception of Noble, all have their teams performing a little better than us.  They may not have the same level of expectation placed upon them, but Teague represents a radical departure from what the club told us it was doing and, so far, we're not seeing what the change was supposed to bring.

I think that it would be wrong for the club to sack yet another coach, particularly after only two years.  It would also be wrong to let things continue as they are and not bring in the best assistants to give Teague the chance to show that he can coach.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 24, 2021, 07:16:06 am
If Teague can coach at AFL level, why haven't we seen evidence of it.

I keep harping on about it but poor team selection, playing blokes out of position, persevering with a game plan that doesn't work (at least with the players we put on the park), poor preparation (in terms of matchups, tactics etc) and inability to change things during games aren't characteristics of someone who can coach.

All teams are affected by COVID so that's not really a factor but, yes, Teague has only been in the job for a little over two years.  Of course, Nicks, Rutten, Longmuir, Noble and Ratten haven't been in their jobs quite as long and, with the exception of Noble, all have their teams performing a little better than us.  They may not have the same level of expectation placed upon them, but Teague represents a radical departure from what the club told us it was doing and, so far, we're not seeing what the change was supposed to bring.

I think that it would be wrong for the club to sack yet another coach, particularly after only two years.  It would also be wrong to let things continue as they are and not bring in the best assistants to give Teague the chance to show that he can coach.
Ive been abit miffed as to why he has persisted with the same plan for so long despite so many failings.
Listening to Leppa on the radio the other day, he suggested there is only minimal stuff you can do mid season, he says it takes a whole summer PS to change it up.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 24, 2021, 10:49:22 am
If Teague can coach at AFL level, why haven't we seen evidence of it.

I keep harping on about it but poor team selection, playing blokes out of position, persevering with a game plan that doesn't work (at least with the players we put on the park), poor preparation (in terms of matchups, tactics etc) and inability to change things during games aren't characteristics of someone who can coach.

All teams are affected by COVID so that's not really a factor but, yes, Teague has only been in the job for a little over two years.  Of course, Nicks, Rutten, Longmuir, Noble and Ratten haven't been in their jobs quite as long and, with the exception of Noble, all have their teams performing a little better than us.  They may not have the same level of expectation placed upon them, but Teague represents a radical departure from what the club told us it was doing and, so far, we're not seeing what the change was supposed to bring.

I think that it would be wrong for the club to sack yet another coach, particularly after only two years.  It would also be wrong to let things continue as they are and not bring in the best assistants to give Teague the chance to show that he can coach.

Last year was the best season we have had in a very long time.

Yes it wasnt a good one, but thats still better than the previous 7 years of garbage.


We have been hearing about all these things (playing blokes out of position, persevering with a game plan that doesnt work, poor preparation in terms of matchups and tactics etc and inability to change things during games and yet if you actually watch our games you see that most of these criticisms arent just invalid, they are flat out inaccurate.

To reiterate:  I have seen Docherty released to a wing, Zac Williams moved forward back and midfield, Stocker put on ball, different taggers and backs roll through players at times, Liam Jones swung forward, Harry put in the ruck to get him into the game and thats just off the top of my head.  These are all in game changes.

The game plan isnt faulty if it works where we can play our way for periods, and it isnt a throw it out scenario and come up with something new, but change in the way its implemented.  Footy is footy.   To a degree its a simple game and there isnt too much you can do differently if players get caught napping, or roll the dice and lose.

Historically, we have said, tagging star players sometimes might nullify one or two and take 10% off their game, but if you taking a dusty or bont, from 40 and 2 goals, to 30 and 1 goal, and then eliminating the input of one of yours from 20 down to 10 posessions, whats the point?

We have been in most of our games this year, and with some change in our fortunes, we would actually be fairing better.  I dont think our team has looked fit all year (typified by the Skipper) and that we have had a few that have been in top gear and most of them really trying to work out their form slumps.

If a bloke can coach, (irrespective of the level) and they come into the Carlton hot seat and cannot coach, I personally am unconvinced the issue is the coach.  I dont think we have a one issue per se.  I think the players think they are better than they are, and probably need a lesson in hard work, which might be why we see the matchups where they get thrashed for a bit.

We need to stop our players from being so comfortable with being uncomfortable in other words.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 24, 2021, 11:15:35 am
If Teague can coach at AFL level, why haven't we seen evidence of it.

I keep harping on about it but poor team selection, playing blokes out of position, persevering with a game plan that doesn't work (at least with the players we put on the park), poor preparation (in terms of matchups, tactics etc) and inability to change things during games aren't characteristics of someone who can coach.

All teams are affected by COVID so that's not really a factor but, yes, Teague has only been in the job for a little over two years.  Of course, Nicks, Rutten, Longmuir, Noble and Ratten haven't been in their jobs quite as long and, with the exception of Noble, all have their teams performing a little better than us.  They may not have the same level of expectation placed upon them, but Teague represents a radical departure from what the club told us it was doing and, so far, we're not seeing what the change was supposed to bring.

I think that it would be wrong for the club to sack yet another coach, particularly after only two years.  It would also be wrong to let things continue as they are and not bring in the best assistants to give Teague the chance to show that he can coach.

Same reason as premiership coaches like Malthouse failed. Player culture, lack of drive and motivation. All player issues. Keep changing coaches, nothing changes in any of those aspects. Game plans never look like they work when players decide they won't work hard. Ridiculously, Teague has comfortably been our 2nd best coach, from a win/loss basis, this century and certainly one of the most scoreboard competitive (as distinct from actually competitive sometimes). Won't only need to change of player attitude and workrate to make finals.

Yes, agree with the latter part. From what I heard though Teague has had enough and wanted to quit a few weeks ago, Between family tragedy and trying to his his team to do as their told he probably had enough.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: WASurfer on June 24, 2021, 11:47:14 am
Slightly offside but probably one reason why neither Bolton or Teague have been helped....interesting article in The West over here today about our recruiting/drafting from 2010-2014....so in the 4 or 5 years leading up to the rebuild and the mega draft of 2015. I can't remember the exact numbers but something like 34 or 35 players drafted and only two left on the list....Cripps and Curnow. It made comparisons with the more successful teams and how many players those clubs still have on their lists from those years.

Reference was made to how many of those players would/should be around the 200+ game mark now. I know the draft isn't an exact science and every club has had their disasters....but to only have 2 players left from those 4/5 years of drafting is an incredibly poor result and certainly wouldn't have helped the club over the last 4-5 years.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: cookie2 on June 24, 2021, 12:01:20 pm
Slightly offside but probably one reason why neither Bolton or Teague have been helped....interesting article in The West over here today about our recruiting/drafting from 2010-2014....so in the 4 or 5 years leading up to the rebuild and the mega draft of 2015. I can't remember the exact numbers but something like 34 or 35 players drafted and only two left on the list....Cripps and Curnow. It made comparisons with the more successful teams and how many players those clubs still have on their lists from those years.

Reference was made to how many of those players would/should be around the 200+ game mark now. I know the draft isn't an exact science and every club has had their disasters....but to only have 2 players left from those 4/5 years of drafting is an incredibly poor result and certainly wouldn't have helped the club over the last 4-5 years.

So back to the age old question Surfie, was it poor drafting, poor development or both? This review had better find the answers otherwise who knows where it will all end up?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 24, 2021, 12:08:01 pm
Slightly offside but probably one reason why neither Bolton or Teague have been helped....interesting article in The West over here today about our recruiting/drafting from 2010-2014....so in the 4 or 5 years leading up to the rebuild and the mega draft of 2015. I can't remember the exact numbers but something like 34 or 35 players drafted and only two left on the list....Cripps and Curnow. It made comparisons with the more successful teams and how many players those clubs still have on their lists from those years.

Reference was made to how many of those players would/should be around the 200+ game mark now. I know the draft isn't an exact science and every club has had their disasters....but to only have 2 players left from those 4/5 years of drafting is an incredibly poor result and certainly wouldn't have helped the club over the last 4-5 years.
Yep its not surprising for a Carlton supporter to see.

This is probably why we went for the Lachie Plowman, Caleb Marchbank, Adam Saad, Zac Williams, Jack Martin, Matt Kennedy group of players to help bridge that gap of experienced older heads.

We have a decent future ahead of us.   I think our middle period of players recruited is still hurting us, and that we are likely to have a better future for it.

What I find most interesting is the layer of players we have recruited that really have had a taste and are on what looks to be slower heat.

Just for those who are a bit miffed at the lack of older players, I think we can fill those gaps now, knowing we have a few to come through that could be anything (or nothing):

Carroll
Durdin
Ramsay
Philp
Honey
Kemp

These guys are all a relative unkown quantity at AFL level so will be interesting to see what happens moving forward.

Add guys like Boyd and Mirkov, we have an interesting layer of youngster coming through.  We probably need a bit more class in through the draft, and depending on whom ends up on the outer at the end of this season, but we could improve really quickly if any of these guys have the requisite ability to come on and show something quickly at AFL level.

Guys like O'Brien, Dow, SPS, Setterfield, Ed Curnow, Murphy, Casboult are probably all varying degrees of not moving us forward, but we could conceivably have a fair turnover and not cause too much top end damage to our list which means improvement is not far away (hopefully). 

Its really important we dont get emotional and dump some of the aforementioned too soon.  I wouldnt be moving on SPS, Dow or Setters in a hurry unless they too want to go because Curnow, Murphy and Casboults days are all numbered.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: cookie2 on June 24, 2021, 12:32:52 pm
@ Thry

Agree, top notch list management will be vital, how good are we though? “Feeling lucky ?” to paraphrase Dirty Harry.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: WASurfer on June 24, 2021, 01:55:11 pm
Cookie....if I had the answers I guess it'd be me doing the review!!!

On top of those kids we drafted in that period, we've topped up with blokes from other clubs who were also pretty high draft picks....some of whom Thryleon alluded to. Includes Plowman, Marchbank, Setterfield and Kennedy from GWS. Of those, Plowman has probably been the best...which would surprise most. Marchbank has played 48 games in 7 seasons of footy and doesn't seem able to stay out there. Kennedy probably saved his spot with that game last week....and Setterfield is in and out of the team as well.

Add to those the Martin/McGovern trades and it makes for ordinary reading across the board. And that doesn't take into account the high end draft picks from about 2016 onwards who are all in and out of the team and who have question marks on them....Dow, O'Brien, SPS etc.

That's a lot of questionable decisions spread over the best part of a decade.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 24, 2021, 01:58:44 pm
I'd bet London to a brick that most, if not all of SPS, Dow, O'Brien etc. would be flying at the better clubs, instead of languishing in CFC limbo. For every Weitering, Walsh, McKay etc. there are way too many fails to be ignored IMO.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 24, 2021, 02:48:00 pm
I'll say it again but too many small bodied Von trapp kids who are outside types, we dont have enough players with size and power around the ball. Its Cripps and Walsh vs the opposition and clubs have worked Cripps out and are now turning their attention to Walsh and will be working him over every week. The defense is unbalanced with two many rebounders who wont defend and the forward line is solely dependent on Harry kicking 4-5 each game for us to win and that aint going to happen vs the decent teams who have 2-3 big defenders.
The reason why Petracca and Bont are such a handful is the size and power, you add other strong types around them with decent rucks and you have 60-70% of the battle won. Cripps is a comparable player ball winning wise but doesnt hurt enough with his possessions and isnt the threat down forward like the other two.
Its down to the recruiting IMO and not the coach......development has played a part but good players like Walsh, TDK, Weitering, Harry come through anyway because they are very good players. Development is in the main down to making your joe average player better not your elite draftees who already have the skill level and nous.
Dow is a classic example....good size, pace but crape skills...so he is a remedial case in need of development and was never a classic No 3 pick who had all the boxes ticked.
If we are picking players in the top ten they have to tick every box, not some but every box......that draft was thin on players
who did tick every box.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LoveNavy on June 24, 2021, 05:40:59 pm
If Teague can coach at AFL level, why haven't we seen evidence of it.

I keep harping on about it but poor team selection, playing blokes out of position, persevering with a game plan that doesn't work (at least with the players we put on the park), poor preparation (in terms of matchups, tactics etc) and inability to change things during games aren't characteristics of someone who can coach.

All teams are affected by COVID so that's not really a factor but, yes, Teague has only been in the job for a little over two years.  Of course, Nicks, Rutten, Longmuir, Noble and Ratten haven't been in their jobs quite as long and, with the exception of Noble, all have their teams performing a little better than us.  They may not have the same level of expectation placed upon them, but Teague represents a radical departure from what the club told us it was doing and, so far, we're not seeing what the change was supposed to bring.

I think that it would be wrong for the club to sack yet another coach, particularly after only two years.  It would also be wrong to let things continue as they are and not bring in the best assistants to give Teague the chance to show that he can coach.

There's a fine review of our football department. Send your invoice to the auditor 😉
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LoveNavy on June 24, 2021, 06:07:08 pm
I'd bet London to a brick that most, if not all of SPS, Dow, O'Brien etc. would be flying at the better clubs, instead of languishing in CFC limbo. For every Weitering, Walsh, McKay etc. there are way too many fails to be ignored IMO.

Related, many criticized the "get games into them" method we adopted across those few years. Many warned "they need strong bodies/leaders around them"
That, IMO wasn't achieved. Add the bad luck (?) with injuries and our coach merry go round, and we have a recipe for stagnation or even rotting.

FWIW I think our list is in much better shape than pre rebuild. I believe we can progress markedly without radical change. A big part of this process IMO is having the (best 22+) boys play together repeatedly.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 24, 2021, 06:28:38 pm
Related, many criticized the "get games into them" method we adopted across those few years. Many warned "they need strong bodies/leaders around them"
That, IMO wasn't achieved. Add the bad luck (?) with injuries and our coach merry go round, and we have a recipe for stagnation or even rotting.

FWIW I think our list is in much better shape than pre rebuild. I believe we can progress markedly without radical change. A big part of this process IMO is having the (best 22+) boys play together repeatedly.

For mine, it feels often like one step forward, two steps back. If there was an award for shooting yourself in the foot, we'd win easily. It's not even things like game plan - e.g Teague telling porkies about Cripps, then having to fess up, recruiting a bloke to be a mid, then deciding he can't actually be a mid etc. These are the sorts of things that cause doubt, and the first word that enters my mind is "amateurish." And that's not a word I think we need around the club.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: DJC on June 24, 2021, 07:24:31 pm
I'd bet London to a brick that most, if not all of SPS, Dow, O'Brien etc. would be flying at the better clubs, instead of languishing in CFC limbo. For every Weitering, Walsh, McKay etc. there are way too many fails to be ignored IMO.

Not only that Paul, imagine how good Cripps, Weitering, Walsh and McKay could be  :-\
Title: Re: Review
Post by: DJC on June 24, 2021, 07:33:10 pm
Same reason as premiership coaches like Malthouse failed. Player culture, lack of drive and motivation. All player issues. Keep changing coaches, nothing changes in any of those aspects. Game plans never look like they work when players decide they won't work hard. Ridiculously, Teague has comfortably been our 2nd best coach, from a win/loss basis, this century and certainly one of the most scoreboard competitive (as distinct from actually competitive sometimes). Won't only need to change of player attitude and workrate to make finals.

Yes, agree with the latter part. From what I heard though Teague has had enough and wanted to quit a few weeks ago, Between family tragedy and trying to his his team to do as their told he probably had enough.

I really don't buy the idea that it's poor player culture that causes the downfall of our coaches ... and coaches are responsible for managing the playing group and that includes driving a competitive, winning culture.

The problem is with the board and administration that (a) sack coaches that show potential to succeed, (b) appoint the wrong coaches (c) don't give coaches the support and assistance they need (d) value membership numbers more than sustained success, and (e) can't stick with a plan for sustained success.

Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 24, 2021, 07:42:29 pm
If Teague can coach at AFL level, why haven't we seen evidence of it.
Compare the pair....
Bolton vs Teague.

I've shown his last 40 games vs teagues first 40 games and the difference is night and day.

If Bolton was really that bad, then surely Teague get a pass just on what he's been able to do with the same list.

Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 24, 2021, 08:12:56 pm
Teague has a better list than Bolton ever had - more star power, more depth, more experience (players have more games under their belts), more stability. The other side of the coin is that expectations and demands for success are greater for Teague.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 24, 2021, 08:14:02 pm
Teague has a better list than Bolton ever had - more star power, more depth, more experience (players have more games under their belts), more stability. The other side of the coin is that expectations and demands for success are greater for Teague.

How much of that did he have in his first 11 games as coach?

I rest my case.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 24, 2021, 08:17:58 pm
Compare the pair....
Bolton vs Teague.

I've shown his last 40 games vs teagues first 40 games and the difference is night and day.

If Bolton was really that bad, then surely Teague get a pass just on what he's been able to do with the same list.


Teagues first 41 games are 17W 24L. Guess what Bollts first 41 games yielded? You guessed it 17W 24L.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on June 24, 2021, 08:20:26 pm
So tell me why there was an immediate turnaround in W / L under Teague?  Same list after all.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 24, 2021, 08:40:59 pm
Teagues first 41 games are 17W 24L. Guess what Bollts first 41 games yielded? You guessed it 17W 24L.

Thank you sir. The next round of Espressos and Rum Babas are on me.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 24, 2021, 08:47:29 pm
List quality isn't just about names on a list, independent of time and space. It's not just about Saad, Williams etc. It's also about maturation and experience. Walsh has played abut 40 of his 50 games under Teague. Weitering and McKay became A graders this season. DeKoning is better now.

If folks don't think our list is better now, then we've just wasted 2 years and millions if dollars.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 24, 2021, 09:04:44 pm
Teagues first 41 games are 17W 24L. Guess what Bollts first 41 games yielded? You guessed it 17W 24L.
Different lists.

Teague took over Boltons list.
Teague got more wins in his first 11 games than Bolton did in his last 50+.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on June 24, 2021, 09:12:37 pm
I've finished my review. I have no recommendations yet.

Bolton came into the job with a brief to develop a young rebuilding list.
He came with the idea that he’d work first on the defensive side of things and get that settled, then build on that foundation.

Silvagni came into his job wanting to build a well- rounded list, not one to finish eighth but one that would enjoy a ‘sustained period of success’.
His first draft secured a Key forward, key back, a tall utility, a mid-fielder….and Jack (a good start)

David Teague came on board as an assistant coach (forwards) after a successful stint working with the forwards at Adelaide

Bolton played the younger players in many positions usually taken by the more experienced, especially midfield, while the older player adopted secondary roles. The aim was to develop these youngsters by giving them early responsibility. How this was received by some of the older players is uncertain but they seemed to perk up when returned to their previous responsibilities.

2019 and suddenly wins took precedent over development. Bolton out the door.

With development pushed to the side Teague now looks for wins or at best good results. Senior players replace the younger group in important roles (have a look at Dow’s 2019 stats before and after Teague took over).

Teague enters the job talking a revolutionary idea that the practices of the recent past (by most AFL sides), a concentration on defence first, could be overwhelmed by an all-out attack.
He sees an opportunity to change the way the game is played and at the same time gain a ‘competitive advantage’.

Prior to taking on the senior role and in the months after he went after and advocated for a couple of players from his old club who would help his cause in McGovern and Betts
He had reason to be optimistic coming into 2021. He could perhaps see a time later in the year where he had a forward line that looked a bit like this…
F: Betts, McKay, McGovern (A fit one)
HF: Martin, Curnow, Silvagni.
That would have been a forward line hard to cover had they all been fit and firing at their best. (wishful thinking maybe)

The key was getting the ball to them. A fully fit Cripps, Walsh and Williams (who could also play an attacking half-back role), attacking half backs in Saad and Docherty…and suddenly the all-out attack didn’t seem too far-fetched. If they scored a 100 we’d score 110-120.

The first problem of course was we were never going to have that full list, fully fit.
Instead, we had
- players on long term injury,
- players playing injured or
- form slumps with players inconsistent or well below their best.
And the reality was that the attacking mid-field depth was dependent on players stepping up, which just hasn't happened.
 
All of this has contributed to an extra work- load on a smaller group who were just getting worn down over time. While there were parts of our game that were very good, it just wasn’t sustainable. As a result we probably have a bit of a kick-back from some players. They question the ability to play a game style we don’t have the players to implement. There are queries as to why some players are selected over others. Attempts to correct things are difficult having had a style of play drilled into them. Compromises need to be made but there are no easy games in 2021 and making adjustments mid-season is complicated.

It's not so much a lack of faith in the coach. It's more a result of the circumstances we find ourselves in. The incoming President picks up on this and brings forward a review hoping to have things evaluated and settled before preparations for 2022 can begin.

The second problem is just a guess that flows from the above, but it may go some way to providing an explanation for the way Silvagni left.
Silvagni’s aim would have been for a team that was evenly balanced. All of a sudden his plans are disrupted by a change in focus to this attacking style. The move to bring Betts into the side being an example. Was there this argument over attack v balance and did Liddle and Lloyd side with Teague’s approach. Silvagni was planning to stay a little longer but the rug was pulled out from underneath him. The impression was he didn’t fight too hard to resist.

The third and major issue that probably won’t get a mention in any review is that from the point when this rebuild was planned and announced none of the architects or builders managed to see it through.
The folks in charge at different points will have put their own marks and twists on what is occurring and  as a result it may have lost its way.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 24, 2021, 09:28:31 pm
I'm pretty sure I read comments from Silvagni that he was on board with getting Betts to the club. I think what gave him the sh1ts is that (according to him) Liddle offered Betts more money than what has originally agreed to.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 24, 2021, 09:38:59 pm
Teague's early success is not hard to figure out. We should all be pretty worried about what's happened since then. His record in 2019 won't save his ar$e. As far as the club is concerned, it's ancient history.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 24, 2021, 09:52:27 pm
Teague's early success is not hard to figure out. We should all be pretty worried about what's happened since then. His record in 2019 won't save his ar$e. As far as the club is concerned, it's ancient history.
His record in 2021 is still better than what Bolton was putting out.

FWIW, Carlton have the 2nd easiest draw from here.
AND
Carlton have had the 4th most injuries to date......if we add in the BS suspensions, we'd probably jump up a notch or 2 for games missed by injuries AND suspension.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 24, 2021, 10:00:39 pm
If you think "better than Bolton" is a standard that Carlton will accept, and a standard that will save his job.................

They gave him a better, more expensive list and free rein in the expectation of playing finals.

Teague won't last 30 seconds if he goes into the review and says "but my record is better than Bolts." He shouldn't use that as a pass mark or a yard stick, and neither should we.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 24, 2021, 10:47:52 pm
Different lists.

Teague took over Boltons list.
Teague got more wins in his first 11 games than Bolton did in his last 50+.
Wrong, Teague got 6 wins in his first 11, Bolts got 8 in his last 50.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 25, 2021, 07:49:17 am
Wrong, Teague got 6 wins in his first 11, Bolts got 8 in his last 50.

Good point. Teague got those wins in the midst of Caretaker Coach Euphoria. Bolton was getting his pants pulled down by anyone who walked past towards the end, much like Teague is now.

I've got nothing against Teague, but those who are pumping up his record as some amazing thing are basing their arguments on fluff. If his record was so great, the club would not be in review mode and the football world would not be disillusioned and baying for blood. Whether those reactions are fair and reasonable is not the issue.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 25, 2021, 08:28:18 am
Wrong, Teague got 6 wins in his first 11, Bolts got 8 in his last 50.
Typo, was meant to say 40+.
All the data I've looked at has been comparing 40 games.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 25, 2021, 08:33:25 am
Typo, was meant to say 40+.
All the data I've looked at has been comparing 40 games.
Regardless, the critics are ignoring the massive change in the way we play, and just looking at the results.

If Bolton had made as much progress and impact on our game style and scoring in his first two years as Teague has, then Bolton might not have got the sack!

In my opinion Teague is on the right track, with a trajectory that suggests huge improvement is possible over the next two seasons, and our club best be wary of the white ants that can see that and look to opportunistically get on board, and also be wary of our enemies that look to scupper that progress by any means possible.

The white ants see the reality, we are just 2 or 3 goals in the first half season away from being in the bottom of the top eight, the impatient fans are fools if they fail to recognise that change!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 25, 2021, 08:33:45 am
Good point. Teague got those wins in the midst of Caretaker Coach Euphoria. Bolton was getting his pants pulled down by anyone who walked past towards the end, much like Teague is now.

I've got nothing against Teague, but those who are pumping up his record as some amazing thing are basing their arguments on fluff. If his record was so great, the club would not be in review mode and the football world would not be disillusioned and baying for blood. Whether those reactions are fair and reasonable is not the issue.
You misunderstand.

I'm not saying his record is so good. I'm saying it's not as bad as people make out.
You say it's a new list.
I point to Bolton's efforts with the same list.

Again, it's not just about wins and losses but being competitive too.

Outside of Carlton, nobody expected Carlton to do much this year....or at least other than a very select few did.
The noise about this is coming from Carlton supporters who drank the coolaid that our pr department was selling.......and the media jumping on board and contradicting their own opinions.

Expectations aside. We are NOT going that badly....certainly not sack the coach worthy. Certainly not with the draw we've had and the injuries we've had.
If we don't win another game from here...re-evaluate.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on June 25, 2021, 08:57:35 am
You misunderstand.

I'm not saying his record is so good. I'm saying it's not as bad as people make out.
You say it's a new list.
I point to Bolton's efforts with the same list.

Again, it's not just about wins and losses but being competitive too.

Outside of Carlton, nobody expected Carlton to do much this year....or at least other than a very select few did.
The noise about this is coming from Carlton supporters who drank the coolaid that our pr department was selling.......and the media jumping on board and contradicting their own opinions.

Expectations aside. We are NOT going that badly....certainly not sack the coach worthy. Certainly not with the draw we've had and the injuries we've had.
If we don't win another game from here...re-evaluate.

Sorry K, but Pauly is spot on and I believe suggesting that if BB was judged on Ws and Ls then so should The TT. BB had us competitive as well factoring what he had to work with... the TT has more talent to work with than BB did.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on June 25, 2021, 08:58:44 am
I just wonder how strong the 'sack the coach' sentiment really is.
A few folks are calling for his head but I think the messaging is more that 'He's struggling and if things don't improve he'll lucky to be the coach next year."

That's not rocket science.
But the club really don't have to do much because they've bought a little time with the review.
The time that takes will mean that any findings and recommendations probably won't  be made much before the season ends.
That will give us time to see how the back half of the season pans out.

Even a big loss against Adelaide can be disregarded in light of the 'review'
They can say "we don't want to preempt its findings"
That doesn't mean the club wouldn't act.
If they want to make a change they can still do that.
Clever little tactic the old 'review' and 'rebuild'
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 25, 2021, 08:59:31 am
Regardless, the critics are ignoring the massive change in the way we play, and just looking at the results.

If Bolton had made as much progress and impact on our game style and scoring in his first two years as Teague has, then Bolton might not have got the sack!

In my opinion Teague is on the right track, with a trajectory that suggests huge improvement is possible over the next two seasons, and our club best be wary of the white ants that can see that and look to opportunistically get on board, and also be wary of our enemies that look to scupper that progress by any means possible.

The white ants see the reality, we are just 2 or 3 goals in the first half season away from being in the bottom of the top eight, the impatient fans are fools if they fail to recognise that change!

I share this opinion.

Ironically we are like the chef that has made the recipe for quite a good slow cooked meal and its simmering away now for the requisite time its going to take for it to be complete.

Through impatience, we keep lifting the lid, adding more salt, pepper, and anything else we think will accelerate the cooking process and in the end are going to spoil the dish.

Just leave the lid on, bubbling away, and get the sides and table ready to serve please, and stop fecking about with it!!

This could change if the dish boils over and we start getting thumped, but I suspect that its quite inconsequential.  The return of Plowman is the single most interesting part of this weekend for me.  If our defence magically stops bleeding as much as it has recently its a direct effect of having someone who is mopping up after the others there and his stature will grow accordingly.  Or not, it is only Adelaide we are playing against after all.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on June 25, 2021, 09:02:29 am
I actually think it is quite unfair to compare BB and The TT. Each had very different briefs. One was to rebuild and teach the fundamentals, the other to play finals.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on June 25, 2021, 09:07:55 am
I'm pretty sure I read comments from Silvagni that he was on board with getting Betts to the club. I think what gave him the sh1ts is that (according to him) Liddle offered Betts more money than what has originally agreed to.

That may be the case. As I said it's just a guess.
You would think though that a plan with a huge emphasis on attack at the expense of defence would not be the favoured option of a list manager looking for a balanced side with multiple options...especially one who was one of the all time great defenders.
Recruiting and list managing is apparently one of the key features to be looked at...

If this review is fair dinkum, somewhere near the top of my 'witness' list is Stephen Silvagni.
If he's a willing participant it may extend the review's feelers into other sections of the club.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 25, 2021, 09:08:26 am
The club has thrown out the slow cooker and has invested in a wok and pressure cooker. Whether it's right or wrong, they want results fast. I think they were always a little delusional expecting finals this year, but that's irrelevant.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 25, 2021, 09:08:44 am
I actually think it is quite unfair to compare BB and The TT. Each had very different briefs. One was to rebuild and teach the fundamentals, the other to play finals.

Why is it an either discussion is a more important reason for why Bolton is drawing criticism and why Teague is also similarly in trouble.

In Bolton's first year as coach, minus a few young draftees by the name of Weitering, Charlie and JSOS, Bolton had a list that actually was ready to compete at AFL level.

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/2016/031420160324.html

Teague's biggest criticism seems to be about not playing enough of the youngsters, but at the same time we criticised (and then sacked Bolton) for much the same by the end.

The truth is, the clubs Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde swings and roundabouts are the biggest issue we face.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 25, 2021, 09:49:50 am
Sorry K, but Pauly is spot on and I believe suggesting that if BB was judged on Ws and Ls then so should The TT. BB had us competitive as well factoring what he had to work with... the TT has more talent to work with than BB did.

Short memories.
I've already showed it's not just about wins and losses.
Including last week, teague has been beaten by 5 goals or more 3 times. Most by 63 against Geelong.
Bolton's last 40 games he was beaten by 100 points 3 times.
On top of that he was beaten by 60-99 points 3 times as well.
I think he was beaten by 5 goals or more about 12 times in his last 40 games.
Competitive? Not most weeks.

The amount of games Bolton won, is the amount of games we are not competitive under Teague.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 25, 2021, 10:06:18 am
With the various investments the club has made, they weren't looking for a move from "mostly honourable losses with a few hidings" to "all honourable losses". As far as the club is concerned, that's not good enough, hence the review.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 25, 2021, 10:13:23 am
The truth is, the clubs Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde swings and roundabouts are the biggest issue we face.
I completely agree with this.

I see fans piling pressure on Teague, because Teague is being measured based on the long term suffering we've endured across Brittain, Pagan, Ratten, Malthouse, Bolton and Teague.

FWIW, I think Bolton's rebuild is somewhat a wasted era, we didn't get enough middle tier quality players out of it, we are still basically stuck with a handful of A-Graders surrounded by players who might barely be bench warmers elsewhere. This is not Teague's fault, and he's had nowhere near enough time to do anything about it.

I have no idea where the expectation of finals in 2021 comes from, it's a form of fan delirium that most of us never bought into, and a perspective the media want to push to pile on the pain. Liddle and his marketing team spin are partly to blame. But it's the naivety of fans that let them buy into that, they are swallowing the spin, and as far as I can see that is not something to blame Teague for!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 25, 2021, 10:14:39 am
With the various investments the club has made, they weren't looking for a move from "mostly honourable losses with a few hidings" to "all honourable losses". As far as the club is concerned, that's not good enough, hence the review.
 It's based on a false premise, a premise many of us never bought into, but those who did pay those those who sold it a handsome dividend!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on June 25, 2021, 10:18:24 am
We're competing against more teams these days but if we fail to make the finals this year it will be the longest period (8 years) that we've gone without a finals appearance in our history.

I think the last thing we're being is impatient.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 25, 2021, 10:20:17 am
I think the last thing we're being is impatient.
What does that have to do with Teague, he's only been officially in charge since August 2019, not even 24 months yet?

The impatience I refer to is clearly in reference to Teague's regime, and fans heaping the failings of history onto the new guy.

I think Barker made a timely exit, he'd been there since the downfall.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on June 25, 2021, 10:24:26 am
What does that have to do with Teague, he's only been in charge since August 2019?

I think Barker made a timely exit, he'd been there since the downfall.

As the President said
It's not all about Teague.
Although folks seem to be concentrating on that aspect at the moment.
(Perhaps worrying about the tree rather than the forest.)
It's about the football department as a whole.

As I recall the club were at pains to say that the replacement of Bolton was just a step in the continuation of the rebuild.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 25, 2021, 10:26:42 am
It's based on a false premise, a premise many of us never bought into, but those who did pay those those who sold it a handsome dividend!

I'm not sure who is included or excluded in the "many", but there seems a lot of people "out there" (fans, media, ex players like Walls, Maclure) who thought we would and should be doing better than we are.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 25, 2021, 10:28:26 am
As the President said
It's not all about Teague.
Although folks seem to be concentrating on that aspect at the moment.
(Perhaps worrying about the tree rather than the forest.)
It's about the football department as a whole.

As I recall the club were at pains to say that the replacement of Bolton was just a step in the continuation of the rebuild.
Teague isn't even in the field of view, he is so irrelevant to the history influencing this debate he should be excluded from the review.

The club's silence on this matter is a disgrace, it reeks of internal politics, it reeks of Teague not having the full support of the board.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 25, 2021, 10:32:00 am
Teague isn't even in the field of view, he is so irrelevant to the history influencing this debate he should be excluded from the review.

The club's silence on this matter is a disgrace, it reeks of internal politics, it reeks of Teague not having the full support of the board.

I agree. He should not be crucified for the sins of the past, but the club is angling for change, and he may be, in true Carlton style, the next scapegoat.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on June 25, 2021, 10:33:47 am
The club's silence on this matter is a disgrace, it reeks of internal politics, it reeks of Teague not having the full support of the board.

Internal Politics?
At Carlton? :o  :o

It's the very reason the review is half-baked. ::)
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on June 25, 2021, 10:45:53 am
I don't want to see Teague sacked, because I don't think it will solve our problems, but even the most one eyed Carlton supporter would have to concede that the entire club, from Board to recruiting, to coach, to players, has been amateurish this season.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on June 25, 2021, 11:33:52 am
Why is it an either discussion is a more important reason for why Bolton is drawing criticism and why Teague is also similarly in trouble.

In Bolton's first year as coach, minus a few young draftees by the name of Weitering, Charlie and JSOS, Bolton had a list that actually was ready to compete at AFL level.

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/2016/031420160324.html

Teague's biggest criticism seems to be about not playing enough of the youngsters, but at the same time we criticised (and then sacked Bolton) for much the same by the end.

The truth is, the clubs Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde swings and roundabouts are the biggest issue we face.

They were both given different expectations which led to different priorities for them to be assessed by. After 2 years, BB had fulfilled his expectations. In years 3 and 4 we changed the expectation for BB.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 25, 2021, 11:48:07 am
They were both given different expectations which led to different priorities for them to be assessed by. After 2 years, BB had fulfilled his expectations. In years 3 and 4 we changed the expectation for BB.

Did you look at that round 1 team?
The one that had the likes of tuohy, Everett, Jamison playing?

What development was going on in that match?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 25, 2021, 11:56:19 am
They were both given different expectations which led to different priorities for them to be assessed by. After 2 years, BB had fulfilled his expectations. In years 3 and 4 we changed the expectation for BB.
@Baggers

BB and SOS turned over lots of numbers, but in hindsight delivered almost 0% player development and perhaps even derailed a few careers, although I concede this might not be Bolton's fault he had a long time to do something about it and failed dismally.

Which is ironic given BB's in that role again at the Dawks, but at the Dawks they develop players in the VFL, not the AFL which is a key difference!

The comments from many experts about us playing kids too soon and for too long when they did not deserve the run sits heavily in this debate, and is ironically ignored by many as they call for kids to be played yet again!

I also fear that some of the current environment activity has links going back to the SOS departure, I'm not confident that hasn't yet played itself out! We are talking about an AFL dynasty with decades of foundations.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on June 25, 2021, 12:57:04 pm
Did you look at that round 1 team?
The one that had the likes of tuohy, Everett, Jamison playing?

What development was going on in that match?

3 Leos old son, let's just agree to disagree... neither of us is going to succeed in persuading the other to our own viewpoint.  :)  :)
Title: Re: Review
Post by: DJC on June 25, 2021, 01:36:16 pm
This is from Daniel O'Keefe's VFL player review:

Quote
It was a nice game from Murph in regards to the way he attacked the game from a mindset point of view, he was really clear with his directive and had clarity on a role and what we wanted to get out of it.

That's "coachspeak" and may require translation but does it mean that Murphy hasn't had clarity about his role?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 25, 2021, 01:40:56 pm
This is from Daniel O'Keefe's VFL player review:

That's "coachspeak" and may require translation but does it mean that Murphy hasn't had clarity about his role?
Not necessarily.

Its more...."Go back to the 2's and focus on this. You will be judged on how well you do this. "
Title: Re: Review
Post by: DJC on June 25, 2021, 01:55:19 pm
Not necessarily.

Its more...."Go back to the 2's and focus on this. You will be judged on how well you do this. "


Possibly, but Murphy has played a different role in the reserves; one that suits his skillset and one that he is used to.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on June 25, 2021, 01:57:25 pm
Teague's early success is not hard to figure out. We should all be pretty worried about what's happened since then. His record in 2019 won't save his ar$e. As far as the club is concerned, it's ancient history.

Last year just a couple of choked last qtrs late in the season against the Pies and Giants likely cost a finals spot. It was still the best season we had since 2013. This year has dropped although we have been scoreboard competitive in every single game. Not acceptable given the poor attitude we have approached those games but it is still light years better than 4 wins from 43 games. Not to mention the embarrassment of those defeats. Who can every forget being outscored 7 goals to 1 in a qtr by a side that had 16 men.

Issue now is to sort the culture and every that goes with that.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on June 25, 2021, 02:26:01 pm
They were discussing Carlton sounding out assistant coaches prior to the review on Footy classified the other night.
As the discussion finished Eddie added this little bit…

Eddie: ….But the other part of it is this…If Luke Sayers is running this, he’s no fool, he knows exactly what he’s doing, he’s not telling anybody, but he knows exactly what’s going on, he may well be a committee of one... lining things up to be executed.

Caro: But why bring in all these experts to have a review?

Eddie: To shut the media up. ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 25, 2021, 02:52:32 pm
Murphy has 5 games to go to get to his 300?...then he wont be part of the team anymore so bothering about what role he is doing is of no importance. The sooner he is sorted the better...
Title: Re: Review
Post by: DJC on June 25, 2021, 04:46:11 pm
Murphy has 5 games to go to get to his 300?...then he wont be part of the team anymore so bothering about what role he is doing is of no importance. The sooner he is sorted the better...

Forget about Murphy.  The question is whether our players understand their roles.  Several posters have remarked on how our players seem confused.  If a bloke who is approaching his 300th game has to have his role clarified by the reserves coach (who seems to know what he is doing), is there a communication problem that is hampering our ability to execute the gameplan?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on June 25, 2021, 05:21:35 pm
Possibly, but Murphy has played a different role in the reserves; one that suits his skillset and one that he is used to.

...and maybe that is the role they want him to play in the 1's from here. Heaven forbid, play a player to their strengths?!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 25, 2021, 05:23:00 pm
Forget about Murphy.  The question is whether our players understand their roles.  Several posters have remarked on how our players seem confused.  If a bloke who is approaching his 300th game has to have his role clarified by the reserves coach (who seems to know what he is doing), is there a communication problem that is hampering our ability to execute the gameplan?
Jones, Weitering, Walsh dont seem confused.....think we are confusing laziness with confusion.
The coach deserves better than what the players are delivering in terms of workrate, every week you look at analysis from different experts and its a lot of the same players just not working hard enough and letting down the team.

Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on June 25, 2021, 08:48:04 pm
How we have players that aren't confused is a mini miracle.

Murphys on his 6th Senior afl coach.

He's also been relegated to roles he's never played before because he was straight into the number one mid role.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 25, 2021, 08:58:05 pm
 
Typo, was meant to say 40+.
All the data I've looked at has been comparing 40 games.
A likely story ;)
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 25, 2021, 08:59:46 pm
I actually think it is quite unfair to compare BB and The TT. Each had very different briefs. One was to rebuild and teach the fundamentals, the other to play finals.
Agree, but ones brief changed mid shag.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: madbluboy on June 26, 2021, 05:57:41 pm
The review starts Monday apparently, I thought they started 2 weeks ago.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 26, 2021, 06:21:54 pm
The review starts Monday apparently, I thought they started 2 weeks ago.
Ross Lyon intimated 4 weeks ago......
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LoveNavy on June 26, 2021, 06:32:11 pm
Ross Lyon intimated 4 weeks ago......

Ross Lyon says a lot of things. I have zip confidence that any more than 7/8 of 4.2% is accurate. The rest, twaddle 😎
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on June 26, 2021, 07:59:39 pm
Agree, but ones brief changed mid shag.

Yep, I mentioned previously that BBs brief altered in year 3.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: DJC on June 26, 2021, 11:54:16 pm
Jones, Weitering, Walsh dont seem confused.....think we are confusing laziness with confusion.
The coach deserves better than what the players are delivering in terms of workrate, every week you look at analysis from different experts and its a lot of the same players just not working hard enough and letting down the team.

The whole team is confused EB. 

I don’t accept that our list is rubbish or that there’s a cultural problem.  We’re not challenging for the eight because our selectors are influenced more by what’s good for boosting membership numbers and protecting reputations than winning games.  How else does Jack Martin get games?

The coach needs to lift his game at pressers, admit that his gameplan isn’t working, tweak it where possible, and insist that team selection is based on merit.

The coach deserves nothing more than what he and his assistants put into the team and I think that Teague has a way to go before he can expect his team to match it with the better sides.

Take last week’s game; our best player was subjected to a hard tag and had no influence at all until he was moved to the wing for the last quarter.  It’s not the players’ fault that the coaches haven’t anticipated the hard tag and come up with tactics to defeat it.

The coach gets what he deserves and he needs to lift his game.

Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on June 27, 2021, 06:38:09 am
The whole team is confused EB. 

I don’t accept that our list is rubbish or that there’s a cultural problem.  We’re not challenging for the eight because our selectors are influenced more by what’s good for boosting membership numbers and protecting reputations than winning games.  How else does Jack Martin get games?
I've been arguing this for some time and get howled down, some even casting racism aspersions. But exclude one good debut game and his stats are softer than LoB.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on July 05, 2021, 09:54:52 am
The whole team is confused EB. 

I don’t accept that our list is rubbish or that there’s a cultural problem.  We’re not challenging for the eight because our selectors are influenced more by what’s good for boosting membership numbers and protecting reputations than winning games.  How else does Jack Martin get games?

The coach needs to lift his game at pressers, admit that his gameplan isn’t working, tweak it where possible, and insist that team selection is based on merit.

The coach deserves nothing more than what he and his assistants put into the team and I think that Teague has a way to go before he can expect his team to match it with the better sides.

Take last week’s game; our best player was subjected to a hard tag and had no influence at all until he was moved to the wing for the last quarter.  It’s not the players’ fault that the coaches haven’t anticipated the hard tag and come up with tactics to defeat it.

The coach gets what he deserves and he needs to lift his game.



Yep.

The question I ask myself is how come The TT is only now throwing around the word 'passion'? How come we're only now playing with vigour, commitment, defensive intent and passion? Where was this round 1 to kick off the season with? Where was this round 2 when we were coming off a loss and playing a traditional rival? Where was this against a decimated Weagles, a struggling GWS? How come only now are we waking up to the truism of probably the number 1 attitude you want your blokes to play with - passion, ruthless intent, etc? The best strategies in the world won't work without these inner fires burning and motivating blokes. How come only now are we beginning to be not so nice? These are the things I suspect the review will answer.

Until only recently we've not played with enough passion or respect for the defensive side of the game. The Pussycats will sure test how fair-dinkum our passion is this weekend.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on July 05, 2021, 10:23:54 am
Hard to play with passion when you are turning it over too much, it's demoralising.

It takes a lot of experience to be able to let go of your mistakes and remain positive, we don't have anywhere near that level of experience yet. It's probably the main reason to persist with guys like Betts and sMurph, because they can impart some perspective and resilience on the kids. I think Jones improvement is in part due to this accumulation of age based experience, you can communicate it but you can't reallly teach it, players have to learn to recognise it in their own game. Cripps still doesn't have it, you can see in the way he panics with the football that he is yet to deal with the accumulated pressure of mistakes. Walsh is an exception, he had this from day one, Weitering is just starting to to get hold of the concept now.

The bad thing from a team perspective, is that the negativity can be contagious, it takes a deliberate concerted effort to block out those thoughts and get on with the next contest.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on July 05, 2021, 12:07:13 pm
I'll ask the question, and I'm not sure I really know  the answer...but are we playing  a lot differently to the way we were playing  before  the bye?
 Some of the same lapses and mistakes are still there. Is it the fact that we're  winning means that we're  witnessing what looks like a rise in confidence and passion. If Freo had run over the top of us I suspect we'd  be seeing things in a vastly different  light. As Kruddler's been pointing out for some time, when we start playing teams around us rather than teams above us the wins are coming with pretty much the same play (and issues) that were part of our pre-bye games.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 05, 2021, 01:03:40 pm
I'll ask the question, and I'm not sure I really know  the answer...but are we playing  a lot differently to the way we were playing  before  the bye?
 Some of the same lapses and mistakes are still there. Is it the fact that we're  winning means that we're  witnessing what looks like a rise in confidence and passion. If Freo had run over the top of us I suspect we'd  be seeing things in a vastly different  light. As Kruddler's been pointing out for some time, when we start playing teams around us rather than teams above us the wins are coming with pretty much the same play (and issues) that were part of our pre-bye games.
To me, it seems the defenders are playing a lot closer to their man. Our defenders also dont seem to be getting isolated as much, players come across at the right time and help (eg Stocker filling the hole of a Lobb lead when he had Weiters beaten). Both Jones and Weiters also have the balance right between punching/spoiling and marking.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on July 05, 2021, 01:23:43 pm
To me, it seems the defenders are playing a lot closer to their man. Our defenders also dont seem to be getting isolated as much, players come across at the right time and help (eg Stocker filling the hole of a Lobb lead when he had Weiters beaten). Both Jones and Weiters also have the balance right between punching/spoiling and marking.

Yep
I'd agree they looked more organised and definitely more supportive.
Jones (apart from a few lapses) and Weitering (outstanding) have been very good for us the last few weeks. Stocker now looks like he really belongs.
So to the next question....Is that because there has been much less pressure the last few weeks.
With less pressure you have more time to get organised and hold structures.
When  the Freo midfield got on top things suddenly didn't look as settled.
Extending it further....would players like Dow and Kennedy have been able to make the same contribution if they were playing against the Bulldogs mid-field?

I guess the point I'm getting at is, maybe we weren't as bad as we thought earlier in the season, but a few wins might have us thinking we're a little better than we really are, and skill issues and lapses aren't the issues they were.

The quality of the opposition is a huge variable.
This weeks game may tell a story.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on July 05, 2021, 01:51:27 pm
I'm not the sure the defenders have changed much, but the mids and onballers certainly have, which leaves less space for the defenders to cover so the whole D50 setup looks more compressed and stable.

The result of the reduced space is that you also see Jones and Weitering involved in more contested marks and less clean intercepts, but that also reduces the oppositions easy targets from turnovers. While Weiters and Jones are marking the way they are it's a good setup, but start losing contested marks and it won't seem so good. This week against Hawkins is a huge test.

Last weekend, all three of Weiters, Jones and Plowman took some ridiculously good defensive contested marks, the Freo coach would be livid, we might not see things so easy against the Handbaggers.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 05, 2021, 02:02:09 pm
David King reckons he is seeing a shift in how our defence works post bye :

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/07/04/david-teague-deserves-endorsement-for-post-bye-defensive-shift/
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on July 05, 2021, 02:07:03 pm
David King reckons he is seeing a shift in how our defence works post bye :

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/07/04/david-teague-deserves-endorsement-for-post-bye-defensive-shift/
It's his way to publish an "I told you so!", "If only they had listened to me sooner!" and "I'm a genius give me a pay rise!"

The AFL Expert commentary version of fortune telling.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 05, 2021, 02:17:18 pm
David King reckons he is seeing a shift in how our defence works post bye :

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/07/04/david-teague-deserves-endorsement-for-post-bye-defensive-shift/
There you go
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 05, 2021, 02:26:12 pm
Plans???or accidental....look at the personnel vs Freo.....no Docherty fumbling and only one kick chasing rebounder.
IMHO it shows we are better off without Docherty and Williams down back and both Newman and Williamson should retain their positions. Stocker does stick close and adds that hardness, maybe the other two can play on the wings and enjoy the freedom to roam and be at their best without having to stick to close to an opponent.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on July 05, 2021, 05:34:05 pm
I'll ask the question, and I'm not sure I really know  the answer...but are we playing  a lot differently to the way we were playing  before  the bye?
 Some of the same lapses and mistakes are still there. Is it the fact that we're  winning means that we're  witnessing what looks like a rise in confidence and passion. If Freo had run over the top of us I suspect we'd  be seeing things in a vastly different  light. As Kruddler's been pointing out for some time, when we start playing teams around us rather than teams above us the wins are coming with pretty much the same play (and issues) that were part of our pre-bye games.

Obviously you know my point of view on the matter.
Play worse teams, get better results. Not just because they are a worse team, but because it gives us a boost in confidence as well.

Having said that, i made a comment in the in-game thread during the last game that we seemed to be playing a chip and mark game a bit towards the end of quarters. Basically trying to limit being scored against in red time.
I don't know if it was simply because we were winning, but its not something i've noticed before.
We seemed a little more deliberate when trying to go forward too. Chip+mark, wait for an opportunity rather than bomb long.

Perhaps that was a team specific thing. Perhaps it was simply a different type of game management that we havn't been in a position to use much. Perhaps it was different personnel playing differently. Its too small of a sample size to make any definitive calls.

Ultimately, i think the biggest variable though is the opposition. Other things help/hinder, but are dwarfed by the quality of the opposition. Sometimes we are simply not good enough. Sometimes we are.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Mantis on July 05, 2021, 08:03:17 pm
Plans???or accidental....look at the personnel vs Freo.....no Docherty fumbling and only one kick chasing rebounder.
IMHO it shows we are better off without Docherty and Williams down back and both Newman and Williamson should retain their positions. Stocker does stick close and adds that hardness, maybe the other two can play on the wings and enjoy the freedom to roam and be at their best without having to stick to close to an opponent.

Playing to players strengths will help. Tweak of the game plan and strategy will help. Figuring out if we recruited to best suit the team will be a question. Along with team selection, and game day coaching moves. I still hope this review runs deep and asking questions everywhere. We need to fix as many problems as possible. We need to see where we have problems to fix things. The remainder of the season might tell us something.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on July 05, 2021, 11:11:37 pm
Its probably a combination of all the things, but let's not forget Teague has just rounded 2 years as senior coach.

Hypothetically the game plan has had to change with the rules which means we are simply getting better at what we are doing IMHO.

We still make mistakes but thats going to happen.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: townsendcalling on July 05, 2021, 11:38:49 pm
Last year, in Teague’s first real go at it, there were very limited opportunities to drill, practice and reinforce game plans as a group. Teams who were well drilled prior to lockdown like Richmond, Geelong, West Coast had a significant advantage. Then we add a couple of important pieces of the jigsaw that needed game time for them and the team to work out how best to use them. They and the team are becoming more comfortable by the week. Good signs…  
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on July 06, 2021, 12:04:03 pm
I hope the review panel and our coaching panel, give this a squiz.

So many truisms talked about that really are as relevant today as in 'their' day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU9kGJ7Y338
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2021, 12:21:35 pm
I fail to see how you can conduct a proper review of this magnitude when one or more of the panel are doing their work through Zoom. I understand the reasons why, but they would have been better off waiting until lockdowns etc. were lifted and had everyone at HQ. It feels hobbled and compromised from the beginning. It's very difficult to get a feel for vibe, body language, mood etc. through video calls.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Professer E on July 06, 2021, 12:27:59 pm
Maybe we needed a reset moreso than review.  Certainly post the bye the coaching and playing contingent seems to have some issues out.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on July 06, 2021, 12:31:53 pm
It feels hobbled and compromised from the beginning. It's very difficult to get a feel for vibe, body language, mood etc. through video calls.
Agreed, but I'll stick with my earlier assessment and assert the review is just preparing the public for decisions that have already been made behind the scenes by Sayers and allies, so in this regard I think how they conduct the review makes little difference.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on July 06, 2021, 02:06:21 pm
Sounds like bad luck for the Clarkson boosters, it seems he is staying until Mitchell succeeds him in 2023.

I realise quite a few of you predicted this, that Clarkson would see out his contract and then be done with AFL coaching. He has basically implied that to the media in press conferences for the last 12 months and they ignore him! It says more about how disingenuous the AFL media is than it does about Clarkson.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 06, 2021, 02:16:09 pm
Sounds like bad luck for the Clarkson boosters, it seems he is staying until Mitchell succeeds him in 2023.

I realise quite a few of you predicted this, that Clarkson would see out his contract and then be done with AFL coaching. He has basically implied that to the media in press conferences for the last 12 months and they ignore him! It says more about how disingenuous the AFL media is than it does about Clarkson.
All that tells me is the big wigs at our club will be thinking "Teaguey your safe for 2022" After that? I reckon they are thinking "Alistair? Come on down"
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on July 06, 2021, 02:18:53 pm
All that tells me is the big wigs at our club will be thinking "Teaguey your safe for 2022" After that? I reckon they are thinking "Alistair? Come on down"
I think by then if we haven't seen progress there will be little controversy.

But on the flipside, if we have seen progress and the club acts that way regardless through impatience, then the chance of it going wrong like the Malthouse appointment to replace Ratten is very very high!

Fans have to accept that risk and benefit works in both ways, Carlton fans should know this very well already!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2021, 02:23:52 pm
I guess we shouldn't automatically assume that Clarkson will leave Hawthorn. He may hang around as Director Of Coaching, mentor, Board member etc.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on July 06, 2021, 02:54:00 pm
All that tells me is the big wigs at our club will be thinking "Teaguey your safe for 2022" After that? I reckon they are thinking "Alistair? Come on down"
So another Carlton funded retirement bonus, we must be the gift that keeps on giving!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: tonyo on July 06, 2021, 03:40:31 pm
All that tells me is the big wigs at our club will be thinking "Teaguey your safe for 2022" After that? I reckon they are thinking "Alistair? Come on down"

It would be ironic if Clarkson takes over the Blues in '22 - that was Ian Aitken's number..... some of us don't forget
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on July 06, 2021, 03:49:37 pm
A good way to keep the media and other speculation pressure at bay is to announce it from 2023, when in fact...
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on July 06, 2021, 04:02:19 pm
I fail to see how you can conduct a proper review of this magnitude when one or more of the panel are doing their work through Zoom. I understand the reasons why, but they would have been better off waiting until lockdowns etc. were lifted and had everyone at HQ. It feels hobbled and compromised from the beginning. It's very difficult to get a feel for vibe, body language, mood etc. through video calls.

It depends on what is being reviewed.

I hear all these criticisms of a review, but there are many ways to conduct a review.

I was hoping we would be focussing more on structure, roles, and reporting lines, than we would be focussing on people.

The focus on people is what got us where we are.

How does our coaching work?
Who sits on the MC to choose the team each week?
How do our structures measure up, are we deficient in any job role?
Is someone spread across too many roles, and do we need someone to give up some responsibility?

I would be happier if this review looked at how we do things, rather than who does them and I am comfortable if that process happens remotely because the football department should continue doing their job, and their position descriptions is all they really need to work on.

Once that has settled, then we can look at KPI's and who is meeting them.  We have historically judged on wins and losses, and this smells more like process, structure and procedure which I am 100% in favour of.  Either remotely or in person.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 06, 2021, 04:13:28 pm
I guess we shouldn't automatically assume that Clarkson will leave Hawthorn. He may hang around as Director Of Coaching, mentor, Board member etc.
They were discussing that on radio earlier, they were saying he is too much of a hands on guy to "oversee" which I agree with. Either way, he has got years of coaching left in him if he so desires, he would also be given opportunities to step into an admin type roll. Maybe to steer the good ship GC's footy dept?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on July 06, 2021, 04:20:23 pm
I hope the review panel and our coaching panel, give this a squiz.

So many truisms talked about that really are as relevant today as in 'their' day.
Was interesting to hear Kennedy state you can't coach today the way they could coach back then, because you can't go hard at the ball and hard at the man like you could back then. You can't speak like those legends, because "Go hard at the ball unless "X" is coming the other way" doesn't work, but that is the contradiction the AFL now lives!

Also liked the comment about getting a letter from a lawyer if a modern coach goes too hard at the kids, it's a change fans just do not get, and a major reason why guys like MM have become obsolete so quickly!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2021, 04:38:57 pm
They were discussing that on radio earlier, they were saying he is too much of a hands on guy to "oversee" which I agree with. Either way, he has got years of coaching left in him if he so desires, he would also be given opportunities to step into an admin type roll. Maybe to steer the good ship GC's footy dept?

Interesting. You reckon we have room on the trophy wall for his stuffed and mounted head ? I'm not sure we have any available space, but his would be the biggest scalp of all.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on July 06, 2021, 04:45:32 pm
Interesting. You reckon we have room on the trophy wall for his stuffed and mounted head ? I'm not sure we have any available space, but his would be the biggest scalp of all.

Your rapier wit does bring a grin to this personage, Pauly.  ;)  :)

3rd time lucky, perhaps?? (DP & MM being one and two... but you no doubt got that ;) ).
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 06, 2021, 04:48:34 pm
Interesting. You reckon we have room on the trophy wall for his stuffed and mounted head ? I'm not sure we have any available space, but his would be the biggest scalp of all.
I wasnt talking about him to us Pauly.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2021, 04:51:19 pm
I wasnt talking about him to us Pauly.

I know, but there's little doubt in my mind that our club will court him and chase him hard when he is available. Unless he flat out says no to the CFC.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 06, 2021, 04:56:50 pm
I know, but there's little doubt in my mind that our club will court him and chase him hard when he is available. Unless he flat out says no to the CFC.
Oh sorry mate, yeah for sure. Our Head Honchos have had a hard on for Clarko for years and will not stop trying. Now that Hawthorn have made it official, I have no doubt our Club will sound out his interest. Coll will try and pry him out for next year, I reckon our mob will be thinking they need to gazump the Filth.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2021, 05:03:20 pm
Oh sorry mate, yeah for sure. Our Head Honchos have had a hard on for Clarko for years and will not stop trying. Now that Hawthorn have made it official, I have no doubt our Club will sound out his interest. Coll will try and pry him out for next year, I reckon our mob will be thinking they need to gazump the Filth.

Yes, quite so. But Clarkson has said a million times that he honours contracts, almost like a moral conviction, so it will be quite a volte-face for him to pike out 12 months early IMO.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 06, 2021, 05:10:56 pm
Yes, quite so. But Clarkson has said a million times that he honours contracts, almost like a moral conviction, so it will be quite a volte-face for him to pike out 12 months early IMO.
Agree, however I reckon that was all before Haw said to him they arent going to renew (which is a first). Up until now, I reckon he hasn't wanted to go anywhere and has always had a gentlemen's agreement to keep rolling onto a new contract. Now that they have told him they wont extend, that might have changed his thinking. I think he will honour it but you never know.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: DJC on July 06, 2021, 05:33:17 pm
I fail to see how you can conduct a proper review of this magnitude when one or more of the panel are doing their work through Zoom. I understand the reasons why, but they would have been better off waiting until lockdowns etc. were lifted and had everyone at HQ. It feels hobbled and compromised from the beginning. It's very difficult to get a feel for vibe, body language, mood etc. through video calls.

It's a review Paul, not an inquisition  :)

It's not ideal that Pav is taking part in the review remotely but I don't think that it will prevent him and the panel from identifying issues/problems that require attention.  If we wait for lockdowns and travel restrictions to be lifted, it might be 2025 before the review starts.

I think that the timing is good - for a review with no definite timeframe - and I'm hoping that we get something to act on before we need to make decisions about the list, coaches, support staff, etc.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2021, 05:41:53 pm
Agree, however I reckon that was all before Haw said to him they arent going to renew (which is a first). Up until now, I reckon he hasn't wanted to go anywhere and has always had a gentlemen's agreement to keep rolling onto a new contract. Now that they have told him they wont extend, that might have changed his thinking. I think he will honour it but you never know.

I guess so, but you would think the Hawks would be pulling every financial, legal, emotional trick to get him to honour his word, knowing full well that half the competition is talking to Clarkson's manager as I type. They'll be left in the lurch if next year becomes a holding pattern, with Mitchell having to come in too early, or Bolts or Newman or someone else to fill in.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: DJC on July 06, 2021, 05:44:40 pm
Sounds like bad luck for the Clarkson boosters, it seems he is staying until Mitchell succeeds him in 2023.

I realise quite a few of you predicted this, that Clarkson would see out his contract and then be done with AFL coaching. He has basically implied that to the media in press conferences for the last 12 months and they ignore him! It says more about how disingenuous the AFL media is than it does about Clarkson.

It seems that Mitchell has withdrawn his application for the Pies job and apparently because he realises (or has been told) that he's not ready to be senior coach.  Clarko made his opinions very clear on the folly of appointing recently retired players as head coaches not so long ago.

So, Clarko has another season at the Hawks (at least) and will not be tempted by the Pies (or us) to break his contract.  The Pies have the jump on the field and should secure the best available coach and, presumably, new assistants.  That will mean a fairly shallow pool and little chance of Teague getting moved on - not that I think that was a realistic scenario, regardless of the review.

To my mind, the review is more about shoring up Teague's position by providing better support and addressing any inadequacies in our footy department.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2021, 05:48:01 pm
It's a review Paul, not an inquisition  :)

It's not ideal that Pav is taking part in the review remotely but I don't think that it will prevent him and the panel from identifying issues/problems that require attention.  If we wait for lockdowns and travel restrictions to be lifted, it might be 2025 before the review starts.

I think that the timing is good - for a review with no definite timeframe - and I'm hoping that we get something to act on before we need to make decisions about the list, coaches, support staff, etc.

If they are hoping for stability and wins this season, I think the timing and announcement is terrible. If this season is already declared a write off, then yes, I guess the timing is fair enough. Personally, I think they should have waited until the end of the year and done a full club review, from top to bottom, including the Board. In fact, if they were only going to do one part of the club, that would be it IMO.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 06, 2021, 05:50:10 pm
Not really a surprise with Clarkson......I reckon Mitchell will coach alone next season and Clarko and Hawthorn will come to an agreement at seasons end, these hand over arrangements rarely work and the distraction of Clarkson being courted by other clubs through a season wont work IMO...with Clarkson and Lyon on the market I reckon its got a bit harder for DT. The temptation for a messiah might be too much for Liddle and crew....
Stewie Dew will also be stewing too as GC would love to tempt Clarko up North to drag the Suns out of the vegetated state they are in....
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2021, 05:58:37 pm
Not really a surprise with Clarkson......I reckon Mitchell will coach alone next season and Clarko and Hawthorn will come to an agreement at seasons end, these hand over arrangements rarely work and the distraction of Clarkson being courted by other clubs through a season wont work IMO...with Clarkson and Lyon on the market I reckon its got a bit harder for DT. The temptation for a messiah might be too much for Liddle and crew....
Stewie Dew will also be stewing too as GC would love to tempt Clarko up North to drag the Suns out of the vegetated state they are in....

I think for the handover to work, you really need the main man who wants out. Parkin to Brittain, Roos to Goodwin, Worsfold to Rutten etc. When you have a main man who feels pushed (Malthouse / Buckley scenario), that's when it can get ugly. I can't get a read on Clarkson.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2021, 06:02:51 pm
.......................
Stewie Dew will also be stewing too as GC would love to tempt Clarko up North to drag the Suns out of the vegetated state they are in....

Now that, IMO is clever. Nice work Elwood.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 06, 2021, 06:12:53 pm
Now that, IMO is clever. Nice work Elwood.

Nice to have you in the audience Paul as always, you are too kind and considerate of my amateurish humor...
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on July 06, 2021, 06:54:05 pm
For this outcome, I'm happy.  Clarkson is a 1st class so and so in my uncouth language. 

Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on July 06, 2021, 07:47:00 pm
I think for the handover to work, you really need the main man who wants out. Parkin to Brittain, Roos to Goodwin, Worsfold to Rutten etc. When you have a main man who feels pushed (Malthouse / Buckley scenario), that's when it can get ugly. I can't get a read on Clarkson.

I heard him speak on the news before and I think he's had enough.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 06, 2021, 07:53:21 pm
I guess so, but you would think the Hawks would be pulling every financial, legal, emotional trick to get him to honour his word, knowing full well that half the competition is talking to Clarkson's manager as I type. They'll be left in the lurch if next year becomes a holding pattern, with Mitchell having to come in too early, or Bolts or Newman or someone else to fill in.
Yes they would, but Clarko is the type who would appreciate this situation is not just about him, its also about the HFC and Sam Mitchell both of whom have served him well. Thats why I reckon he will honour his contract next year. There is the slim possibility that Haw will say if something comes up sooner, go with our blessing.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2021, 08:34:18 pm
One of our members (mbb from memory) reckons that Russell and Clarkson don't get along, and if the latter comes in, the former would leave.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: jeza on July 06, 2021, 08:46:52 pm
Is Russell any good anyway?
Can't  keep our players on the field. We consistently look out on our feet late in games. I can't say he'd be any great loss if he left.

I desperately hope we stick with Teague though. Getting rid of Barker was already a massive step in the right direction. We appointed DT - now let's give him a chance.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2021, 08:53:30 pm
I don't know if Russell is any good. He came with massive raps, supposedly the best in the business. I think it's worth bearing in mind that many come to our club with fine reputations, and leave with those reputations either dented or in tatters. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone across Board, executive, coach, player who bucks that trend.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 06, 2021, 09:26:49 pm
I don't know if Russell is any good. He came with massive raps, supposedly the best in the business. I think it's worth bearing in mind that many come to our club with fine reputations, and leave with those reputations either dented or in tatters. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone across Board, executive, coach, player who bucks that trend.
Too many people in the industry vouch for him being the best in the business. Remember he is dealing with humans, flesh and bones not machines made of a metal and the game is quicker than ever before. Injuries are on the increase across the industry, not just at our club. There is nothing in the world Russell could have done to prevent injuries to Cripps (on the weekend), Charlies knee, Docs knees, Govs ankles, SOS shoulders, every one of Chandelier Marchbanks injuries etc. You could argue some of the soft tissues could be related to training load management but if you look at the players they have happened to, most are players with questionable preparation and training standards. "Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee". I'd be staggered if the review found issues with Russells credentials, methods or handling of our S&C and injuries.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: jeza on July 06, 2021, 09:26:59 pm
Hard to find excuses for Russell regardless of reputation. A guy like McGovern - he has clearly been mismanaged. Curnow, Marchbank, Silvagni, Cunningham, Kreuzer, etc.

Its a long long list of players he hasn't been able to keep on the park.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: jeza on July 06, 2021, 09:30:40 pm
Too many people in the industry vouch for him being the best in the business. Remember he is dealing with humans, flesh and bones not machines made of a metal and the game is quicker than ever before. Injuries are on the increase across the industry, not just at our club. There is nothing in the world Russell could have done to prevent injuries to Cripps (on the weekend), Charlies knee, Docs knees, Govs ankles, SOS shoulders, every one of Chandelier Marchbanks injuries etc. You could argue some of the soft tissues could be related to training load management but if you look at the players they have happened to, most are players with questionable preparation and training standards. "Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee". I'd be staggered if the review found issues with Russells credentials, methods or handling of our S&C and injuries.

Wow... you're a LOT more forgiving than me.

Rehab is on Russell. Whether its SoS shoulder or Gov's back/hammy issues. He is rushing them back and not rehabbing them properly. Whatever it is he's hardly going to be missed.

Barker froze out Dow and Kennedy. Barker (lovely bloke) but I am not sure he had the faintest clue what he was doing.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2021, 09:32:24 pm
There are rumours around that those players are being rushed back at Teague's insistence, because he desperately needs wins, going against Russell's advice.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 06, 2021, 09:33:37 pm
Hard to find excuses for Russell regardless of reputation. A guy like McGovern - he has clearly been mismanaged. Curnow, Marchbank, Silvagni, Cunningham, Kreuzer, etc.

Its a long long list of players he hasn't been able to keep on the park.
Clearly mismanaged? Gov worst enemy is Gov, they dont call him brackets for nothing. Marchbank gets injured taking the bins out. Silvagni is too courageous for his own good, ditto Kruze. Charlie's injury is as tricky as they come, ask Adam Cooney.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 06, 2021, 09:35:00 pm
Wow... you're a LOT more forgiving than me.

Rehab is on Russell. Whether its SoS shoulder or Gov's back/hammy issues. He is rushing them back and not rehabbing them properly. Whatever it is he's hardly going to be missed.

Barker froze out Dow and Kennedy. Barker (lovely bloke) but I am not sure he had the faintest clue what he was doing.
We talking Russell or Barker? No qualms with your assessment of Barker.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 06, 2021, 09:35:51 pm
There are rumours around that those players are being rushed back at Teague's insistence, because he desperately needs wins, going against Russell's advice.
Well if that's found to be correct, that's on Lloyd, Teague and the MC, not Russell.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2021, 09:44:16 pm
Well if that's found to be correct, that's on Lloyd, Teague and the MC, not Russell.

Yes, no doubt.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on July 06, 2021, 10:23:17 pm
There are rumours around that those players are being rushed back at Teague's insistence, because he desperately needs wins, going against Russell's advice.

You are the first to tell that rumour from where I sit.

Title: Re: Review
Post by: DJC on July 06, 2021, 10:29:28 pm
There are rumours around that those players are being rushed back at Teague's insistence, because he desperately needs wins, going against Russell's advice.

Williams and Martin are both playing injured.  Williams has his ankle re-strapped (and probably jabbed) at least once a game and Martin is on one leg.  High profile players, brought in by the current CEO and footy manager and payed overs (as you have to), can't be out injured or membership numbers will suffer.

Russell has an unenviable job with the pressure he must be under to get players back on the park, for the wrong reasons.  Hopefully, the reviewers will pick up on that and recommend that Russell be free to decide on player availability on fitness grounds alone.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 06, 2021, 10:30:48 pm
You are the first to tell that rumour from where I sit.


Been on a Big Footy for a while
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 06, 2021, 10:42:28 pm
Yes they would, but Clarko is the type who would appreciate this situation is not just about him, its also about the HFC and Sam Mitchell both of whom have served him well. Thats why I reckon he will honour his contract next year. There is the slim possibility that Haw will say if something comes up sooner, go with our blessing.
And can I also add this, another reason why I reckon he wont be the coach of Carlton is because of the way we treated his great mate Bolts. We here will all have our opinions of Bolts, many will also say he cant coach and that's fine. I'll lay London to a brick Clarko will have a very different option of him and how he was treated by us.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on July 07, 2021, 09:39:35 am
Been on a Big Footy for a while

That explains why i havent heard it.

I stay away from big footy.

Those platforms tend to attract all manner of scuttlebutt and I just dont have the time to go trawling for stuff that will wind up on here.

I think there is a universal truth when it comes to a player and fitness.

Its up to the player to rule themselves out of selection, and not the fitness and conditioning staff.  They are simply there to provide opinions because like health care, everyone is different and only you really know your own body. 
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 07, 2021, 10:07:35 am
That explains why i havent heard it.

I stay away from big footy.

Those platforms tend to attract all manner of scuttlebutt and I just dont have the time to go trawling for stuff that will wind up on here.

I think there is a universal truth when it comes to a player and fitness.

Its up to the player to rule themselves out of selection, and not the fitness and conditioning staff.  They are simply there to provide opinions because like health care, everyone is different and only you really know your own body. 
And if you know where to look,  amongst the plethora of characters (such as this site), there are posters they call "In The Knows" (ITKs) that have bang on information almost every time. From team selections, to contract talks, recruiting, etc.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: DJC on July 07, 2021, 10:28:42 am
And can I also add this, another reason why I reckon he wont be the coach of Carlton is because of the way we treated his great mate Bolts. We here will all have our opinions of Bolts, many will also say he cant coach and that's fine. I'll lay London to a brick Clarko will have a very different option of him and how he was treated by us.

I believe you’re right G2C.

Clarko has been quite outspoken about coaches being sacked and I’m sure that he would avoid a coaching appointment that arose as a result of the incumbent being sacked while contracted.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 07, 2021, 10:59:38 am
Hard to find excuses for Russell regardless of reputation. A guy like McGovern - he has clearly been mismanaged. Curnow, Marchbank, Silvagni, Cunningham, Kreuzer, etc.

Its a long long list of players he hasn't been able to keep on the park.
You are blaming Russell for McGovern rocking up unfit and unprofessional? Curnow for falling up stairs, playing basketball, kick to kick with his brother and injuring himself. Marchbank has never completed a season without injury, Kreuzer was nearly cooked by the time Russell arrived in late 2018.
The bloke has been involved with 6 premierships at different clubs and then winds up at a 3rd World organisation like Carlton expected to turn everyone into Usain Bolt, think he has the runs and credits on the board and its a bit rough to be expecting him to be performing medical/high performance miracles with some of our players.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on July 07, 2021, 11:18:56 am
The bloke has been involved with 6 premierships at different clubs and then winds up at a 3rd World organisation like Carlton, think he has the runs and credits on the board and its a bit rough to be expecting him to be performing medical miracles with some of our players.
I do not believe the role Russell is in at Carlton is the same as the role he held at the Dawks, based on what we saw in the AFL documentary he's moved into more of a supervisory / managerial role with us from more of a hands on at the Dawks.

I'm not even sure the role he finished in at the Dawks was the same role he held during their period of success.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: townsendcalling on July 07, 2021, 11:55:11 am
If Russell was told to compromise his program, he would walk. It would be professionally damaging to him and not worth staying around. I call BS on BF!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on July 07, 2021, 12:00:53 pm
If Russell was told to compromise his program, he would walk. It would be professionally damaging to him and not worth staying around. I call BS on BF!
Yes I agree, it would be no different to the bust up between Ratten and Cordy.

But I'm still not sure his role is the same at Carlton as it was at the Dawks.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on July 07, 2021, 01:24:08 pm
If Russell was told to compromise his program, he would walk. It would be professionally damaging to him and not worth staying around. I call BS on BF!

Could be that Russell was promised all manner of more responsibility to coax him away from the Dawks? Could be the review discovers that he should refocus on what he's best at and take his fingers out of other pies (which may be distracting/watering down his undoubted expertise & skills).
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on July 07, 2021, 01:31:15 pm
Could be that Russell was promised all manner of more responsibility to coax him away from the Dawks? Could be the review discovers that he should refocus on what he's best at and take his fingers out of other pies (which may be distracting/watering down his undoubted expertise & skills).
Yes quite possibly, that comment from Leigh Matthews in the coach discussion video you linked makes the statement, paraphrasing he said "Let's admit it we are all control freaks!", from time to time they may need rescuing from themselves! I dare say in hindsight both Ratten and BB needed that, but our club was too weak and it didn't come in time if at all!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on July 07, 2021, 04:02:42 pm
Yes quite possibly, that comment from Leigh Matthews in the coach discussion video you linked makes the statement, paraphrasing he said "Let's admit it we are all control freaks!", from time to time they may need rescuing from themselves! I dare say in hindsight both Ratten and BB needed that, but our club was too weak and it didn't come in time if at all!

Both the Tiggers and Pussycats made such adjustments to their senior coaches areas of responsibilities (after an independent review) and we know the results of having them focus on their role... only. You are so right, and so was Lethal, when commenting on the very nature of senior coaches... they are control freaks and need to be protected from themselves.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 07, 2021, 04:56:37 pm
I do not believe the role Russell is in at Carlton is the same as the role he held at the Dawks, based on what we saw in the AFL documentary he's moved into more of a supervisory / managerial role with us from more of a hands on at the Dawks.

I'm not even sure the role he finished in at the Dawks was the same role he held during their period of success.
I'm just saying the players who were mentioned were either partly to blame for their injuries or who have had long running fitness issues.
Even Martin's game average per season over the journey is poor, then you have the club recruiting the likes of Williams who was a known poor endurance performer with ongoing achillies issues and Russell is copping the blame for all of it...I'm just calling unfair given his record at premiership clubs. I remember the Geelong recruiter who we signed but only stayed a few months said we were unprofessional and archaic in our recruiting and technical neanderthals in our methods and its fair to say fitness hasnt been our strong point either and Russell is starting a long way back compared to other high performance gurus at other successful clubs.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: jeza on July 08, 2021, 10:37:35 pm
There are rumours around that those players are being rushed back at Teague's insistence, because he desperately needs wins, going against Russell's advice.

Even if that's true (not that I'd want to question the impeccable track record of BF) but it's still on Russell. It's his responsibility to manage the players fitness - and not allow anyone else to influence his decisions on what is best for the players.

And yes McGovern has been massively mismanaged since he got to the club. To anyone who's been paying the slightest bit of attention that is fairly obvious.

But Gov is just one example - of many but who cares about trying to argue the point. Carlton's injury list has been as bad as anyone in the league since Russell arrived - that's just fact. And we can't run out games. Right now the injury list is sitting at 15 which is as bad as anyone yet again! Not saying they're ALL Russells fault - but if he left and we appointed a hyperactive Cocker Spaniel to the position I doubt we'd have worse than 15 injuries at this point. So hardly a devastating blow if he left.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: DJC on July 08, 2021, 10:57:29 pm
Yes I agree, it would be no different to the bust up between Ratten and Cordy.

But I'm still not sure his role is the same at Carlton as it was at the Dawks.

We have added leadership to his portfolio and I'm not sure that he has any particular expertise in that area.

Russell is very good at getting players to peak condition but that doesn't help when team selection is based on salary and profile before fitness and form.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: northernblue on July 08, 2021, 11:15:50 pm
Even if that's true (not that I'd want to question the impeccable track record of BF) but it's still on Russell. It's his responsibility to manage the players fitness - and not allow anyone else to influence his decisions on what is best for the players.

And yes McGovern has been massively mismanaged since he got to the club. To anyone who's been paying the slightest bit of attention that is fairly obvious.

But Gov is just one example - of many but who cares about trying to argue the point. Carlton's injury list has been as bad as anyone in the league since Russell arrived - that's just fact. And we can't run out games. Right now the injury list is sitting at 15 which is as bad as anyone yet again! Not saying they're ALL Russells fault - but if he left and we appointed a hyperactive Cocker Spaniel to the position I doubt we'd have worse than 15 injuries at this point. So hardly a devastating blow if he left.

Don’t get those chickens and eggs all scrambled.

If someone is injured, they are not either not playing or playing under duress… do you think that might influence your perception of their ability to run out games ?
Most people to my mind would agree that your better players are usually also your fitter players, they also tend to be faster, stronger and have better endurance.
So if you have best 22 players who are injured it stands to reason that their replacements will often be (comparatively) possessing less of these attributes.

Continuity also plays a part, if Weiters, Walsh or Plowman miss a game or two they I’m confident could come straight back to senior footy, but guys who have been battling injury’s/suspensions are going to struggle imho. And on queue, Fisher is back in the seniors this week, to me, this is an issue and I’d expect Russell is saying, “Yeah, he’s no longer injured” and the MC are sticking them straight into the team…
Did I hear that the Vfl team has a bye this week ? Grrr.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on July 14, 2021, 11:50:04 am
Can I offer a point of difference?

The review itself might simply be to try and get the Baggers faithful to buy back in.  One thing I have noticed, is the sentiment has flipped in those who were prior scathing of the Bolton sacking, and how they are now calling a witch hunt for Teague.  Likewise, the fans that were most vocal about removing Teague have now calmed down considering it a fait accompli that he has gone, when the reality is, it gives the club time to take a lot of emotion and oxygen out of the anti teague situation, particularly in the light of whats going on at Hawthorn.

Perhaps this was just shrewd business by the club and this will simply yield positive results.  Barker moving on now is something that needed to happen anyway, as its simply just time. 
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 26, 2021, 02:49:09 pm
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-news-2021-carlton-footy-review-david-teague-contract-expert-panel-fox-footy-first-crack-sacked-analysis-adam-saad-loss-to-north-melbourne/news-story/c5392df20f383a567befcb3ef6cc78e6

I really wonder how much research goes into those Fox Footy shows. Our defensive improvement since the bye has been marked. We have one terrible quarter, and it's on like Donkey Kong.

Under Bolton, we had too much structure. Under Teague, we don't have any. Blah.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: tonyo on July 26, 2021, 05:52:25 pm
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-news-2021-carlton-footy-review-david-teague-contract-expert-panel-fox-footy-first-crack-sacked-analysis-adam-saad-loss-to-north-melbourne/news-story/c5392df20f383a567befcb3ef6cc78e6

I really wonder how much research goes into those Fox Footy shows. Our defensive improvement since the bye has been marked. We have one terrible quarter, and it's on like Donkey Kong.

Under Bolton, we had too much structure. Under Teague, we don't have any. Blah.
It's easy for commentators to seem wise when they are using the retroscope.

But the third quarter on Saturday wasn't just bad from a scoring point of view.  It was out lowest point for at least three years, and it really did look like the players almost gave up.  6 measly tackles in one quarter is hardly the stuff of competitive football.

That's the big worry - that many on our list just don't care enough to want to improve.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 26, 2021, 06:11:08 pm
It's easy for commentators to seem wise when they are using the retroscope.

But the third quarter on Saturday wasn't just bad from a scoring point of view.  It was out lowest point for at least three years, and it really did look like the players almost gave up.  6 measly tackles in one quarter is hardly the stuff of competitive football.

That's the big worry - that many on our list just don't care enough to want to improve.

We can zero in on one bad quarter (and it absolutely was bad), or we can take a broader view and see improvement (admittedly from a low base) in defence and structures since the bye.  We need to factor in injuries, pressure from media, fans, the club itself (hey Review, I'm looking at you), which as Malthouse said, absolutely affects your ability to coach. I've never really been a fan of the idea that players are there for the pay check only, don't care etc. The most successful clubs over the last 20 years have good recruiting, good development, and most of all internal fortitude to create unity and stability and withstand nonsense and noise from outside.  With very few exceptions, they grow from within. Every current coach except Ratten is a first timer. Hardwick, Simpson, Clarkson, all of them have never coached anywhere else. They've been at the clubs for ages and weathered the nonsense.

Forget the pre season predictions. They were nonsense. The best way forward is to do what the successful clubs do. Be genuinely unified from Board to Boot Studder, provide support and resources as required, keep imports to the bare minimum, no coaching changes every 30 seconds, and erect a sh1t deflecting umbrella around the footy department and give it a chance to grow and evolve - not point a gun at its head every other month. Watch things improve.

Players are all like all of us - creatures of habit, and creatures of history. They feel the discomfort and angst of those above them, and it affects their play. It is very easy for the losses to mount and become habitual. It's a very hard habit to break. Any giving up IMO comes from despair, not from self entitlement or selfishness or lack of interest.

And the Board needs a complete clean out.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 30, 2021, 10:28:20 am
From the HS

AFL 2021: Blues life member accuses ‘power drunk’ Carlton board of deceptively changing constitution
Constitutional changes at Carlton have been described by a life member as sneaky and deceptive. And he says the club is systematically being taken away from fans.
Michael Warner
4 min read
July 30, 2021 - 9:10AM

One of Carlton’s top coterie figures says the club has been “hijacked” by a “power drunk board that has gotten completely out of control”.

Vince Loccisano, a Blues life member and long-time president of the powerful “Carltonians” coterie group, has accused the club of “cleverly and deceptively” introducing a series of constitutional changes that makes it harder for members to call an extraordinary general meeting.

Plans to increase the number of signatures needed to force a spill of the board from 100 to five per cent of eligible voting members are “hidden away” in a new constitution put to members this week that rightly recognises women and First Nations people, Loccisano says.
The changes — to be put to a vote at a special general meeting on August 17 — will also:

ALLOW incoming president Luke Sayers to serve longer in the top job,

WAIVE a requirement for a Blues director to have been a club member for at least two years before joining the board and,

REDUCE the annual rotation of club directors seeking re-election from three down to two.

“It’s arrogance and audacity on steroids,” Loccisano said.

“Members only have three weeks to digest, discuss, debate and ultimately vote on whether to pass a new constitution – and that’s grossly inadequate and inappropriate for such dramatic changes.

“While the vast majority of Carlton members have their attention firmly on the external review and David Teague’s future, in my view, this is a sneaky and shifty way of slipping these changes through.

“And the board is attempting this latest power grab at a time when the club has yet again grossly underperformed on the field.”

Loccisano is calling on the Carlton board to postpone the August 17 meeting or face the threat of an EGM.

“If the board fails to immediately postpone the meeting, I cannot rule out that a petition won’t be created to cause an EGM with a vote of no confidence in the board and spill of all board positions – and if this happens the board will only have itself to blame,” he said.

“And if the board forces me to go down the EGM route, I would encourage all Carlton members who feel they have the time, the skills, the passion and the motivation to be part of an alternative board to approach me directly.

“The Carlton board of directors in its entirety has overseen the worst on-field performance in our club’s history.

“It continues its trend of seeking one scapegoat after another for its failed strategies and poorly chosen appointments.

“It never applies the same standards or level of scrutiny or accountability to itself as it does on others that it employs beneath them.

“Until now, like all members, I have watched on and supported this board and previously supported them in their quest for success. I have listened to the empty promises and continual spin of its media department, with its carefully written emails and media releases. “But after yet again being promised the world and delivered an atlas, the Carlton members deserve to be treated with respect, not to be hoodwinked by a board that’s perfected the art of using smoke and mirrors to deceive the very people who it should be answerable to.”

Loccisano, 52, said Carlton members needed to “wake-up” before it was too late.

“This board talks a lot about putting members first, but their actions say otherwise,” he said.

“You may be a member, but in reality you are merely a customer. They just want your money, and that is pretty much it. That’s why I feel Carlton members should recognise that we have hit a fork in the road. We are at a crossroad that is so crucial to the future direction of our club and how it is governed.

“I say to the Carlton members, ‘your club is being systematically, and very cleverly, taken away from you’. And only when you want to do something about it in the future will you realise the implications of these changes.

“My conscience will not allow me to sit idly by and watch them make this almighty grab for power without doing something about it. I won’t sleep at night. I love my club too much.”

Carlton’s constitutional changes will also allow adult AFL members with a full club support package to vote in an election for the first time.

But Loccisano said it meant a bid to obtain five per cent of members’ signatures for an EGM had been made “exponentially harder”.

“If frivolous EGM’s were taking place every couple of years you could understand it, but the Carlton members have proven that they are above that,” he said.

“Every change that the board has brought in, including the establishment of an independent nominations committee a few years ago, is designed to enhance the protection racket.”

Outgoing Blues president Mark LoGiudice this week said he would be “flabbergasted” if the Carlton members did not support the proposed changes.

An external review into the club’s football operations involving ex-Collingwood football boss Geoff Walsh is close to completion.

Sayers and chief executive Cain Liddle are overseeing the review process.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on July 30, 2021, 10:32:09 am
I don't really have a problem with the changes, they are primarily levelling the playing field and will offer the club better stability.

I think part of problem I have with the Loccisano critique is that it seems to look at them from the perspective of a long time male club member, when some of the changes are making it easier for us to quickly attract and offer top female talent opportunities to contest the board.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on July 30, 2021, 10:54:04 am
The best we can do is look at the proposed changes and give them some consideration.
If you have a problem with any don't vote for them.
We complain often about not having a say.
This is one opportunity.

I don't mind attracting top-end talent, but I do like to see them come with some credentials or history in terms of supporting the club.
We don't want fly-by-nighters who flit in and flit out once their interest wanes.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on July 30, 2021, 11:00:30 am
I don't mind attracting top-end talent, but I do like to see them come with some credentials or history in terms of supporting the club.
We don't want fly-by-nighters who flit in and flit out once their interest wanes.
The problem here may be this is the new way, if we want to be professional hired guns are part of the process, the business and professional sporting world are now far too complex for all the very best solutions to be internally generated.

Nobody is claiming the board will be over-run with external forces, under these rules they would still be very much a minority.

I think fans are easily persuaded by the who of it, for example if our board come out tomorrow and announced they wanted Leigh Matthews to join most fans would be over the moon in support, but if it was Neil Balme the same fans would tear down the pavilion, despite both candidates having similar qualifications and achievements in football administration. The board needs to be colder in it's judgements than the fans.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on July 30, 2021, 11:06:37 am
Interesting to see that Hawthorn and Clarko have agreed to part ways at the end of the season.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 30, 2021, 11:11:15 am
Interesting to see that Hawthorn and Clarko have agreed to part ways at the end of the season.

Yep. Pressure on Teague unfortunately has just skyrocketed IMO.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/hawthorn-and-four-time-premiership-coach-alastair-clarkson-part-ways-20210730-p58ed1.html
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on July 30, 2021, 11:20:02 am
Interesting to see that Hawthorn and Clarko have agreed to part ways at the end of the season.

Not confirmed until we hear it from coach or club but....

It was never going to work and would have been an ongoing  distraction for Hawthorn and any club performing poorly through 2022.





Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on July 30, 2021, 11:28:11 am
Not confirmed until we hear it from coach or club but....

It was never going to work and would have been an ongoing  distraction for Hawthorn and any club performing poorly through 2022.






You can tell everyone you heard it from me first!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 30, 2021, 11:28:29 am
You'd have to wonder how Hawthorn has started to leak so badly.

At any rate, there's no way Teague could be coaching at his best right now. Swirling media speculation, injuries, the Review, Clarkson's sudden availability - his head must be a mess.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on July 30, 2021, 11:37:22 am
You'd have to wonder how Hawthorn has started to leak so badly.

At any rate, there's no way Teague could be coaching at his best right now. Swirling media speculation, injuries, the Review, Clarkson's sudden availability - his head must be a mess.
My worry is he's a good chance of coaching a spoon side that has underachieved. Might tell us something. We have been down this road before with gun coaches who were getting passed it.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: madbluboy on July 30, 2021, 11:46:42 am
Review complete. Get Clarkson.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: cookie2 on July 30, 2021, 11:47:07 am
Oh no, another messiah in the offing??
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 30, 2021, 11:52:05 am
Yep. Pressure on Teague unfortunately has just skyrocketed IMO.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/hawthorn-and-four-time-premiership-coach-alastair-clarkson-part-ways-20210730-p58ed1.html
Yep like I said previously Clarkson had Hawthorn by the short and curlies and Kennett had to roll over and give him the money, all that crap about seeing out his contract was just BS so he could push Kennett into a corner.
Caro was right all along which isnt often but this was all about money....I'd say the decision has already been made on Teague and I'd expect either Clarko or Lyon to be in the frame.
Clarkson will now field offers from about 4 clubs IMO and pick the best contract/lifestyle.....
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 30, 2021, 11:52:59 am
Clarkson will have been extensively briefed by Bolton, so if he does come here, he'll know exactly what he's in for.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 30, 2021, 11:56:20 am
Which begs the question as to why he would actually want to come.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: cookie2 on July 30, 2021, 12:00:01 pm
Which begs the question as to why he would actually want to come.

$s ?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 30, 2021, 12:00:06 pm
Clarkson will have been extensively briefed by Bolton, so if he does come here, he'll know exactly what he's in for.
Clarko wants the money IMO, this is his superannuation contract, you listen to him and its about where he is going to live/lifestyle etc and football might not even be a priority. Does he want the pressure of Collingwood or Carlton for example?, could easily take take the Gold Coast job if offered and relax a bit more up Nth with little expectation other than to do better than Dew...
I'm sure we will be pitching though and if Caro is right again then we will have another Messiah to lead us from the wilderness....
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on July 30, 2021, 12:00:27 pm
I reckon Collingwood. 
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on July 30, 2021, 12:20:28 pm
Clarkson will have been extensively briefed by Bolton, so if he does come here, he'll know exactly what he's in for.

That's a good point.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 30, 2021, 12:20:35 pm
Clarko wants the money IMO, this is his superannuation contract, you listen to him and its about where he is going to live/lifestyle etc and football might not even be a priority. Does he want the pressure of Collingwood or Carlton for example?, could easily take take the Gold Coast job if offered and relax a bit more up Nth with little expectation other than to do better than Dew...
I'm sure we will be pitching though and if Caro is right again then we will have another Messiah to lead us from the wilderness....

Until we have a professionally run club that is united from top to toe and stable, this cycle will continue to repeat. If Teague gets chopped, he would have been in the job 2 1/2 years. That's following on from Bolton (3 1/2, sacked mid season) and Malthouse (2 1/2, sacked mid season). That's disgraceful behaviour.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on July 30, 2021, 12:21:22 pm
Review complete. Get Clarkson.
He's a good chance of coaching a spoon side that has underachieved. Might tell you something. We have been down this road before with gun coaches who were getting passed it.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 30, 2021, 12:22:59 pm
Until we have a professionally run club that is united from top to toe and stable, this cycle will continue to repeat. If Teague gets chopped, he would have been in the job 2 1/2 years. That's following on from Bolton (3 1/2, sacked mid season) and Malthouse (2 1/2, sacked mid season). That's disgraceful behaviour.
Fair points... We know though the temptation of Clarko will be too much for our board...
The Nth loss was probably the worst outcome for Teague and the results now don't matter..
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on July 30, 2021, 12:25:56 pm
Fair points... We know though the temptation of Clarko will be too much for our board...
The Nth loss was probably the worst outcome for Teague and the results now don't matter..

Wonder what they think if we win the next 2 as we will likely sit in the 8.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on July 30, 2021, 12:30:10 pm
Until we have a professionally run club that is united from top to toe and stable, this cycle will continue to repeat. If Teague gets chopped, he would have been in the job 2 1/2 years. That's following on from Bolton (3 1/2, sacked mid season) and Malthouse (2 1/2, sacked mid season). That's disgraceful behaviour.

A new dawn has to start sometime... perhaps it is this year. We can hope.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on July 30, 2021, 12:30:50 pm
Until we have a professionally run club that is united from top to toe and stable, this cycle will continue to repeat. If Teague gets chopped, he would have been in the job 2 1/2 years. That's following on from Bolton (3 1/2, sacked mid season) and Malthouse (2 1/2, sacked mid season). That's disgraceful behaviour.

Unfortunately results under Bolton and Mick were awful. Few wins, embarrassing hidings. Our culture and motivation is terrible but you couldn't run with that. We've had nothing like that right now, as frustrating as it has been. We have been a very competitive team, on the scoreboard at least, even if some of the on field efforts have left a bit to be desired. Could end up a Ratten to Malthouse type handover, thinking we had something better, which we have regretted ever since.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 30, 2021, 12:39:14 pm
Wonder what they think if we win the next 2 as we will likely sit in the 8.
Dont think it will matter, reckon the decision will have been made and lets be honest we all know these big player/coach deals get done months in advance and its been a bit of masquerade IMO with this review.
Ratten had his coach killer game and now Teague has had is IMO, I wouldnt sack him but I cant see Sayers/Liddle letting the likes of Clarko slip through their fingers if they get the opportunity to nab him...
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 30, 2021, 12:50:12 pm
A new dawn has to start sometime... perhaps it is this year. We can hope.

That may be true, but professional organisations do not and should not be run like that.

I've never worked in the corporate world, so I can't say I really understand the corporate mindset - is this an extension of the trophy mindset ? Trophy home, trophy wife, trophy player, trophy coach ? If not, then I can only assume that these are people stuck in an atomistic, mechanistic mindset -the best players plus the best coach plus the best facilities etc. equals success. Well that's wrong. Modern science has made it clear that relationships between things are where it's at. Which is why other clubs have success and we thrash around looking for Peter Perfect.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on July 30, 2021, 12:55:30 pm
Which is why other clubs have success and we thrash around looking for Peter Perfect.
I agree with you 100%, but you know why even if that is true I'd expect that the outcome won't change, just like circumstance didn't help Ratten.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 30, 2021, 01:09:25 pm
I agree with you 100%, but you know why even if that is true I'd expect that the outcome won't change, just like circumstance didn't help Ratten.

I agree. That the club will chase Clarkson hard is practically a foregone conclusion. It's really whether :
a. Clarkson wants to coach, and
b. whether he wants to coach us.

Neither of which seem very clear at this point.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 30, 2021, 01:46:22 pm
Unfortunately results under Bolton and Mick were awful. Few wins, embarrassing hidings. Our culture and motivation is terrible but you couldn't run with that. We've had nothing like that right now, as frustrating as it has been. We have been a very competitive team, on the scoreboard at least, even if some of the on field efforts have left a bit to be desired. Could end up a Ratten to Malthouse type handover, thinking we had something better, which we have regretted ever since.

Results under a particular coach are about a lot more than just the coach's ability. It's not even remotely possible that we keep picking coaches with no ability. The various ideas thrown around (this coach is motivated by the wrong things, that coach is out of his depth, the game has passed him by, lost the fire in the belly etc.) have, when it comes to Carlton, all been discredited.

When judging our last 20 years, you can't pick and choose which coach sacking / hiring decisions are correct and which are not, based on whether or not you like the guy in charge. Teague's results are better because the conditions around him are better (Bolton did all the donkey work plus more list stability under Teague, plus better players, plus players who were too young under Bolts are starting to hit their peak) etc. The expectations on Teague were higher because the conditions around him improved.

As an aside, you'd really have to suspect the club is full of inbreeders when the two coaches who have had any kind of "success" are ex players.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 30, 2021, 01:53:07 pm
I agree. That the club will chase Clarkson hard is practically a foregone conclusion. It's really whether :
a. Clarkson wants to coach, and
b. whether he wants to coach us.

Neither of which seem very clear at this point.
I'd say Coll are the front runner. Despite recent turmoil, they have been a stable club of the years, are arguably the biggest club in town and will be able to throw massive coin at him and are ready to appoint today if they needed to.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Professer E on July 30, 2021, 01:58:19 pm
Don't say I didn't warn you people... If it's said in a Whorethorn presser, take it with a grain of salt.  
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on July 30, 2021, 02:11:05 pm
I'd say Coll are the front runner. Despite recent turmoil, they have been a stable club of the years, are arguably the biggest club in town and will be able to throw massive coin at him and are ready to appoint today if they needed to.

Yet they have spoiled the apple cart big time with their salary cap.  If rumours are to be believed, the Pies highest paid player this season isnt even playing for them!!  AND they still have De Goey, and Grundie. 
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 30, 2021, 03:02:52 pm
I'd say Coll are the front runner. Despite recent turmoil, they have been a stable club of the years, are arguably the biggest club in town and will be able to throw massive coin at him and are ready to appoint today if they needed to.
Graham Wright is running Footy at Hawthorn, not sure that relationship was all that sweet when he left Hawthorn to join the Pies unless its all part of some big master plan.
Got to laugh at Maynard and crew hanging out with the excuse they want to see who the next coach is.....and of course fielding offers so they can screw more money out of the already bulging Pies cap.
Brad Scott was a former assistant from memory at the Pies and was well liked...IMO out of him and Clarko.....
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on July 30, 2021, 03:15:10 pm
Graham Wright is running Footy at Hawthorn, not sure that relationship was all that sweet when he left Hawthorn to join the Pies unless its all part of some big master plan.
The media can't have it both ways, they are still asserting the Filth initiated the Mitchell offer as a way of ultimately securing either one of Mitchell or Clarkson.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on July 30, 2021, 04:26:02 pm
Results under a particular coach are about a lot more than just the coach's ability. It's not even remotely possible that we keep picking coaches with no ability. The various ideas thrown around (this coach is motivated by the wrong things, that coach is out of his depth, the game has passed him by, lost the fire in the belly etc.) have, when it comes to Carlton, all been discredited.

When judging our last 20 years, you can't pick and choose which coach sacking / hiring decisions are correct and which are not, based on whether or not you like the guy in charge. Teague's results are better because the conditions around him are better (Bolton did all the donkey work plus more list stability under Teague, plus better players, plus players who were too young under Bolts are starting to hit their peak) etc. The expectations on Teague were higher because the conditions around him improved.

As an aside, you'd really have to suspect the club is full of inbreeders when the two coaches who have had any kind of "success" are ex players.

Results tell you alot. Bolton had 4 wins from his last 43 games. That's not donkey work, that is just a donkey. No fool in their right mind keeps a coach with a 9% record from his last 50 games no matter what our culture is like. That's just embracing failure.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 30, 2021, 04:37:07 pm
Results tell you alot. Bolton had 4 wins from his last 43 games. That's not donkey work, that is just a donkey. No fool in their right mind keeps a coach with a 9% record from his last 50 games no matter what our culture is like. That's just embracing failure.

Lethal has believed for a long time that good players make good coaches. I'll give you a small sample of what Bolton had to work with : Mullett, O'Shea, Matt Shaw, Gorringe, Smedts, Palmer, Lamb, Sumner, Fasolo...........I could go on. Plus clearing out the junk from the Malthouse era, plus factor in virtually no leadership, plus 12-15 changes every season, with average list age getting younger every year, plus change CEO, change high performance manager, change director of football, plus losing Craig, plus clashing with Teague. Nobody is doubting the poor results, but you might want to look at the bigger picture to understand why.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 30, 2021, 04:39:05 pm
You'd have to wonder how Hawthorn has started to leak so badly.

At any rate, there's no way Teague could be coaching at his best right now. Swirling media speculation, injuries, the Review, Clarkson's sudden availability - his head must be a mess.
I dont think Teague has anything to worry about, Clarkson will be a Coll next year.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on July 30, 2021, 04:39:27 pm
Interesting to hear some of the inner argy bargy that is allegedly going on about Clarkson's performance in recent years, the washup is that they think the list is better than the ladder position, and that Clarkson has been a bit off his game in recent years.

I wonder if that is post Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS), it is not an inconsequential consideration, I believe stress is claimed to be a big trigger for a potential reoccurrence. I've also heard that it is a bit like Ross River Fever or Dengue, you always eventually get a second dose.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 30, 2021, 04:41:25 pm
$s ?
He gets a $1-1.5M free courtesy of Haw, Coll will throw the kitchen sink at him.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on July 30, 2021, 04:43:39 pm
He gets a $1-1.5M free courtesy of Haw, Coll will throw the kitchen sink at him.
They all have to obey the soft cap though, the soft cap tax/fine is enormous, I believe a sliding scale up to 50% of whatever you spend as overs.

However, it is one of those AFL discretion things, so you just know it won't be apply equitably.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 30, 2021, 04:45:41 pm
That may be true, but professional organisations do not and should not be run like that.

I've never worked in the corporate world, so I can't say I really understand the corporate mindset - is this an extension of the trophy mindset ? Trophy home, trophy wife, trophy player, trophy coach ? If not, then I can only assume that these are people stuck in an atomistic, mechanistic mindset -the best players plus the best coach plus the best facilities etc. equals success. Well that's wrong. Modern science has made it clear that relationships between things are where it's at. Which is why other clubs have success and we thrash around looking for Peter Perfect.
Peter (Brock) Perfect died!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on July 30, 2021, 04:48:02 pm
Results tell you alot. Bolton had 4 wins from his last 43 games. That's not donkey work, that is just a donkey. No fool in their right mind keeps a coach with a 9% record from his last 50 games no matter what our culture is like. That's just embracing failure.

Bolton could never pass for a coach.  Fail on every level.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 30, 2021, 04:54:05 pm
Peter (Brock) Perfect died!

I was thinking of the character from Whacky Races, one of my favourite early childhood shows. I'm not into car racing, so I didn't know that was Brock's nickname.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 30, 2021, 05:00:27 pm
Results tell you alot. Bolton had 4 wins from his last 43 games. That's not donkey work, that is just a donkey. No fool in their right mind keeps a coach with a 9% record from his last 50 games no matter what our culture is like. That's just embracing failure.
You keep trotting the 4 from 43 line, but I maintain the club blinked early. You say it wasn't donkey work, mate it was 100% donkey work given where the list was at. Boltons early days were akin the the GWS and GC early days given the age and experience of the list. Clarkson wouldn't have done any better IMO, he is showing it this year at Haw.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 30, 2021, 05:31:14 pm
You keep trotting the 4 from 43 line, but I maintain the club blinked early. You say it wasn't donkey work, mate it was 100% donkey work given where the list was at. Boltons early days were akin the the GWS and GC early days given the age and experience of the list. Clarkson wouldn't have done any better IMO, he is showing it this year at Haw.
Reckon Clarko has been trying?....when Mitchell came back from WC he would have known what was going on and the likely outcome with his old pal Jeff waiting to send him on his way. I think he has just played the year out without much care knowing he was about to get one mill plus free in a payout and then walk into another job of his choice.
He has been very cool and collected for a bloke who has been driven out of the job and usurped by his understudy Mitchell, reckon Clarko knew exactly what he was doing this season and had his foot off the gas for a large part of the year.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 30, 2021, 05:54:59 pm
Reckon Clarko has been trying?....when Mitchell came back from WC he would have known what was going on and the likely outcome with his old pal Jeff waiting to send him on his way. I think he has just played the year out without much care knowing he was about to get one mill plus free in a payout and then walk into another job of his choice.
He has been very cool and collected for a bloke who has been driven out of the job and usurped by his understudy Mitchell, reckon Clarko knew exactly what he was doing this season and had his foot off the gas for a large part of the year.
Plausible but unlikely IMO.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 30, 2021, 06:47:37 pm
Plausible but unlikely IMO.
Clarko has been telling porkies for a while like how keen he was to coach next season and continue his work with the Hawthorn youth as he had his passion back, 1.2 mill seemed to dull his interest real quick. Caro has been right so far, I'll be interested in what she says about Clarko having a year off too when the offers start coming in..
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 30, 2021, 06:49:04 pm
Clarko has been telling porkies for a while like how keen he was to coach next season and continue his work with the Hawthorn youth as he had his passion back, 1.2 mill seemed to dull his interest real quick. Caro has been right so far, I'll be interested in what she says about Clarko having a year off too when the offers start coming in..
Stated on the news he probably wont field offers in the next 3-4 weeks. Looks like he is favouring a year off.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on July 30, 2021, 06:51:07 pm
OK, i think i've worked out the outcome this review was supposed to have.

Lets look at some facts.
1. Outgoing president stated Teague will coach 2022.
2. Clarkson is sacked and will sit out 2022 and get paid to do so.

Joining the dots....
Clarko coaches us in 2023.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 30, 2021, 06:59:51 pm
Stated on the news he probably wont field offers in the next 3-4 weeks. Looks like he is favouring a year off.
Stated he was seeing out his contract too and he would be at Hawthorn next year....reckon 1.5 mill a year for 5 years might change his mind. If Gold Coast really want him he might get more than that via the good old AFL chipping in too.

He can just sit back now and yep he wont field any offers for 3-4 weeks but I bet his manager will....
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 30, 2021, 07:01:36 pm
Stated he was seeing out his contract too and he would be at Hawthorn next year....reckon 1.5 mill a year for 5 years might change his mind. If Gold Coast really want him he might get more than that via the good old AFL chipping in too.

He can just sit back now and yep he wont field any offers for 3-4 weeks but I bet his manager will....
He said he would stay, they terminated him early. He has honoured his word to this day. If he says tomorrow he will take a break, I would believe it.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 30, 2021, 07:05:46 pm
OK, i think i've worked out the outcome this review was supposed to have.

Lets look at some facts.
1. Outgoing president stated Teague will coach 2022.
2. Clarkson is sacked and will sit out 2022 and get paid to do so.

Joining the dots....
Clarko coaches us in 2023.
Not sure MLG's word is good for much, would we really let Clarkson sit out and let other clubs court him?
What if Teague makes finals 2022 and we have promised Clarko the job....very awkward?, not to mention poor old DT who will live every game like its his last. Might as well pay Teague out if thats the plan and get Clarko working now.

Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on July 30, 2021, 07:08:05 pm
Not sure MLG's word is good for much, would we really let Clarkson sit out and let other clubs court him?
What if Teague makes finals 2022 and we have promised Clarko the job....very awkward?, not to mention poor old DT who will live every game like its his last. Might as well pay Teague out if thats the plan and get Clarko working now.

I would expect there would be an agreement and possible signed contracts if it was the case.

As for your what if's....club is not that forward thinking. We can still make finals this year!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 30, 2021, 07:17:50 pm
He said he would stay, they terminated him early. He has honoured his word to this day. If he says tomorrow he will take a break, I would believe it.
My view is he wanted the money and had no intention of coaching but backed that knob Jeff Kennett into a corner saying he was staying put and Mitchell has been having a hissy fit at the thought so Kennett had to offer the payout.
He didnt seem to have any trouble accepting or having too many tears for those young players he was so passionate about either.
Clarko 1 vs Hawks nil...
Do we really think if he gets offers of 1.5 mill plus a year he is going to say No thanks ....this is his chance to secure his retirement
and then leave the game. IMHO he is burnt out and has other things, other places he wants to go but he needs the Willy Wonka Gold ticket to do it and there about 4 clubs looking for a messiah. This is his best chance to play them off against each other to up the money , we had the Review for a reason and timed it for a reason. Hope I am wrong because I like David Teague but I can feel Matho warming up the plane and having the caviar delivered fresh sooner than later..
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on July 30, 2021, 07:21:27 pm
What the hell more does he need?  Millionaire many times over. Pr1ck
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 30, 2021, 07:21:57 pm
My view is he wanted the money and had no intention of coaching but backed that knob Jeff Kennett into a corner saying he was staying put and Mitchell has been having a hissy fit at the thought so Kennett had to offer the payout.
He didnt seem to have any trouble accepting or having too many tears for those young players he was so passionate about either.
Clarko 1 vs Hawks nil...
Do we really think if he gets offers of 1.5 mill plus a year he is going to say No thanks ....this is his chance to secure his retirement
and then leave the game. IMHO he is burnt out and has other things, other places he wants to go but he needs the Willy Wonka Gold ticket to do it and there about 4 clubs looking for a messiah. This is his best chance to play them off against each other to up the money , we had the Review for a reason and timed it for a reason. Hope I am wrong because I like David Teague but I can feel Matho warming up the plane and having the caviar delivered fresh sooner than later..
We'll see how this plays out I guess. I just dont reckon Clarko is the mongrel people make him out to be in respect to his commitments to club and colleagues. Sure he wasn't going to walk away from a lucrative contract, who would? But I am sure he would have stayed if he had to.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on July 30, 2021, 07:29:58 pm
What the hell more does he need?  Millionaire many times over. Pr1ck

Just saying on fox footy that the agreed payout amount is 900k.

If hawks had to pay all that out this year, it would cost them AN ADDITIONAL 500k in soft cap tax!

Instead, they will pay it out over 2 years, and end up paying 75k tax in each of the next 2 years.
They are the first club to officially go over the soft cap.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on July 30, 2021, 07:33:10 pm
We'll see how this plays out I guess. I just dont reckon Clarko isn't the mongrel people make him out to be in respect to his commitments to club and colleagues. Sure he wasn't going to walk away from a lucrative contract, who would? But I am sure he would have stayed if he had to.

I tend to agree. Every time his contract has come up for renewal, the media circus cranks up the nonsense, and every time he stuck fat. He was already pretty well paid, but I'm sure other clubs would've offered more.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on July 30, 2021, 07:40:07 pm
Whatever money a club pays clarko to coach (next year) Hawthorn don't have to pay him.

So, there is an opportunity, for a club to get Clarko to coach their club next year, and pay him, literally, nothing.
Talking about it on fox footy and they used $1 as the figure.

Suggesting that you can pay Clarko $1 to coach (and he gets 900k from the hawks) and you use that extra 900k soft cap room, to beef up your department and get a leg up on everyone else.

Now, how would you do that....
Effectively 'front load' some assistant coach contracts, and hire someone else for the long term and his wages come from the money you've saved by front loading assistants.

IMO, the ability to increase you football department (for free) is a bigger coup than getting Clarko as coach.

If we do get clarko (i don't think we should), but i'd be more inclined to do so provided we don't have to pay him a cent in his first year.

Would he effectively work for free though? If we upped his $'s from 2023 he could.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Tragic on July 31, 2021, 07:41:08 am
Whatever money a club pays clarko to coach (next year) Hawthorn don't have to pay him.

So, there is an opportunity, for a club to get Clarko to coach their club next year, and pay him, literally, nothing.
Talking about it on fox footy and they used $1 as the figure.

Suggesting that you can pay Clarko $1 to coach (and he gets 900k from the hawks) and you use that extra 900k soft cap room, to beef up your department and get a leg up on everyone else.

Now, how would you do that....
Effectively 'front load' some assistant coach contracts, and hire someone else for the long term and his wages come from the money you've saved by front loading assistants.

IMO, the ability to increase you football department (for free) is a bigger coup than getting Clarko as coach.

If we do get clarko (i don't think we should), but i'd be more inclined to do so provided we don't have to pay him a cent in his first year.

Would he effectively work for free though? If we upped his $'s from 2023 he could.

I think every dollar another club pays Clarko next year is a dollar the Hawks don't have to pay.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 31, 2021, 07:50:07 am
I think every dollar another club pays Clarko next year is a dollar the Hawks don't have to pay.
Correct, I'd have a year off too if I was on full pay.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on July 31, 2021, 09:22:11 am
I think every dollar another club pays Clarko next year is a dollar the Hawks don't have to pay.
Pretty sure i said that in the first line of the post you quoted.  :-\
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Tragic on July 31, 2021, 09:51:48 am
Pretty sure i said that in the first line of the post you quoted.  :-\

Yeah turns out you did. Then i got a bit lost and confused by the rest. I'm easily confused though.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on July 31, 2021, 02:55:34 pm
BREAKING, via Jon Anderson: "As Carlton continues a review into its football department, some findings can be revealed & don’t make for pretty reading for those in charge.
For those desperate to know how the Carlton review will go, buckle your seat belts & get ready for change.
Anderson: "Some of the findings are said to include a lack of player development, player “cliques” (with large, unjustified salaries an issue), culture deficiencies, poor behaviours, consistently long injury list & meddling from outside departments into football matters."
Anderson: "The 3-person panel will shortly table its report. Could it also include regrets from some parents that their sons were actually drafted by the club?
And do players have total faith in selection integrity? A term that first introduced during the Brendon Bolton years."
Anderson: "The other issue for Carlton over the next 2 years is an extremely tight salary cap that is going to have to find room for emerging superstar’s Sam Walsh new deal as he comes out of contract at the end of 2022. It might even mean Walsh is paid under market value."
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 31, 2021, 03:06:31 pm
BREAKING, via Jon Anderson: "As Carlton continues a review into its football department, some findings can be revealed & don’t make for pretty reading for those in charge.
For those desperate to know how the Carlton review will go, buckle your seat belts & get ready for change.
Anderson: "Some of the findings are said to include a lack of player development, player “cliques” (with large, unjustified salaries an issue), culture deficiencies, poor behaviours, consistently long injury list & meddling from outside departments into football matters."
Anderson: "The 3-person panel will shortly table its report. Could it also include regrets from some parents that their sons were actually drafted by the club?
And do players have total faith in selection integrity? A term that first introduced during the Brendon Bolton years."
Anderson: "The other issue for Carlton over the next 2 years is an extremely tight salary cap that is going to have to find room for emerging superstar’s Sam Walsh new deal as he comes out of contract at the end of 2022. It might even mean Walsh is paid under market value."
Cant see us risking under paying Walsh, rather lose a few other players than lose Walsh.
Brad Lloyd with a target on his back?
Player cliques?...that isnt good but a fact of life at footy clubs, Collingwood won a flag with conflicting player cliques.
Selection Integrity...we could have told the review that was an ongoing issue....unjustified salaries..really???
Luke Sayers is meant to be very friendly with Clarkson....I'd be concerned for Teague.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on July 31, 2021, 03:08:44 pm
Cant see us risking under paying Walsh, rather lose a few other players than lose Walsh.
Brad Lloyd with a target on his back?
Player cliques?...that isnt good but a fact of life at footy clubs, Collingwood won a flag with conflicting player cliques.
Selection Integrity...we could have told the review that was an ongoing issue....unjustified salaries..really???
Luke Sayers is meant to be very friendly with Clarkson....I'd be concerned for Teague.

Interesting what the full review comes up with. That's just a few minor snippets. Hopefully those unjustified salaries are all front ended.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on July 31, 2021, 03:25:27 pm
This'll be fun.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on July 31, 2021, 03:41:22 pm
The fact this has leaked suggests nothing has changed.

Seriously doubt we've TPP issues.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on July 31, 2021, 04:47:01 pm
BREAKING, via Jon Anderson: "As Carlton continues a review into its football department, some findings can be revealed & don’t make for pretty reading for those in charge.
For those desperate to know how the Carlton review will go, buckle your seat belts & get ready for change.
Anderson: "Some of the findings are said to include a lack of player development, player “cliques” (with large, unjustified salaries an issue), culture deficiencies, poor behaviours, consistently long injury list & meddling from outside departments into football matters."
Anderson: "The 3-person panel will shortly table its report. Could it also include regrets from some parents that their sons were actually drafted by the club?
And do players have total faith in selection integrity? A term that first introduced during the Brendon Bolton years."
Anderson: "The other issue for Carlton over the next 2 years is an extremely tight salary cap that is going to have to find room for emerging superstar’s Sam Walsh new deal as he comes out of contract at the end of 2022. It might even mean Walsh is paid under market value."

My first take from all of that....
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/e5e91360089456411ef660428fb48270/tenor.gif?itemid=9900289)


Just on the last point...Walsh may even be paid 'unders'. Well if we pay him overs to stay we are doing something wrong. You ALWAYS pay unders to keep your own players. You pay overs to attract new talent.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: madbluboy on July 31, 2021, 04:52:30 pm
Spot on Kruddler.

I don't know why everyone gets caught up in the salaries of free agents and trades.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Milhanna13 on July 31, 2021, 08:27:40 pm
BREAKING, via Jon Anderson: "As Carlton continues a review into its football department, some findings can be revealed & don’t make for pretty reading for those in charge.
For those desperate to know how the Carlton review will go, buckle your seat belts & get ready for change.
Anderson: "Some of the findings are said to include a lack of player development, player “cliques” (with large, unjustified salaries an issue), culture deficiencies, poor behaviours, consistently long injury list & meddling from outside departments into football matters."
Anderson: "The 3-person panel will shortly table its report. Could it also include regrets from some parents that their sons were actually drafted by the club?
And do players have total faith in selection integrity? A term that first introduced during the Brendon Bolton years."
Anderson: "The other issue for Carlton over the next 2 years is an extremely tight salary cap that is going to have to find room for emerging superstar’s Sam Walsh new deal as he comes out of contract at the end of 2022. It might even mean Walsh is paid under market value."

Been a fair bit of chat around that this is pure speculation from Anderson.  Even the use of questions rather than statements.  He may actually know that the report is about to be released, but then has just made up the contents
Title: Re: Review
Post by: DJC on July 31, 2021, 10:36:44 pm
BREAKING, via Jon Anderson: "As Carlton continues a review into its football department, some findings can be revealed & don’t make for pretty reading for those in charge.
For those desperate to know how the Carlton review will go, buckle your seat belts & get ready for change.
Anderson: "Some of the findings are said to include a lack of player development, player “cliques” (with large, unjustified salaries an issue), culture deficiencies, poor behaviours, consistently long injury list & meddling from outside departments into football matters."
Anderson: "The 3-person panel will shortly table its report. Could it also include regrets from some parents that their sons were actually drafted by the club?
And do players have total faith in selection integrity? A term that first introduced during the Brendon Bolton years."
Anderson: "The other issue for Carlton over the next 2 years is an extremely tight salary cap that is going to have to find room for emerging superstar’s Sam Walsh new deal as he comes out of contract at the end of 2022. It might even mean Walsh is paid under market value."

While some of the issues wouldn't surprise me, I think that it would be wise to take Anderson's speculation with a grain of salt.  That would have to be one of the most qualified media stories ever.

Anderson has probably been lurking here and has repeated some of the common themes  ::)
Title: Re: Review
Post by: madbluboy on August 01, 2021, 12:48:14 pm
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/leaked-high-level-carlton-email-supposedly-reveals-the-future-of-the-club/news-story/a8a86c34cb8c67cf7a01cbf2fedfca3f

An alleged email from deep inside the Carlton hierarchy has found its way to Sheahan ink.

The email which may be true or may be just be a work of fiction offers intriguing suggestions of what the future might look like for the Blue Baggers.

The leaked email, supposedly from a club board member, outlines the club’s mistakes, plans for the future, who is to be sacked, who will or won’t be hired and players’ futures.

We haven’t been able to check the veracity of the claims but the specific details suggest it came from a highly placed insider with intimate knowledge of boardroom politics, executive level decision making, finances and list management.

The ‘person’ suggests the board is divided into two camps: the billionaires, led by Pratt and Mathieson, and the non-billionaires.

The top-level secretive document highlights David Teague’s tenure as senior coach and whether he should be given next season to continue in the job.
Some of what the email reportedly contains includes:

> Does the club ‘give Teague 2022 with new assistants on the basis we are not top six by mid-season, Clarko would be available’ (referring to outgoing Hawks coach Alastair Clarkson), which is the preferred option of the billionaires.

> Or does it ‘make a change now because Teague cannot create a game plan and there is genuine concern over the direction of the group’ — the preferred option of the non-billionaires.

> Alternatives to take over: Brad Scott, Ross Lyon, Alastair Clarkson or Don Pyke.

> Justin Leppitsch’s recent comments on the Blues’ decision-making left a sour taste in their mouth.

> Scott is labelled ‘the most likely pick’ as the AFL ‘wants us to take him’ but there’s a query over his ability to recruit big name assistants, unlike Ross Lyon.

> Lyon is very unlikely to get the job because of the way he left Fremantle.

> Pyke is very well liked by the review team with John ‘Horse’ Longmire saying he ‘is the best assistant we’ve ever had’ at the Swans.

> Leppitsch very unlikely. Not good at Lions.

> A process will be undertaken to appoint a new coach by a panel of football people after a new head of football is appointed.

The email also apparently states the club will be getting rid of Brad Lloyd, Teague and the assistants, bar Luke Power and Daniel O’Keefe.

Cain Liddle’s position as chief executive is under intense scrutiny. The club’s recruiter Nick Austin another in the gun.

A change in the team’s captaincy is also forecast according to the document, stating defender Jacob Weitering would be anointed the new leader with young gun Sam Walsh his vice-captain.

Patrick Cripps needs to focus on his body and getting fit, it reportedly states.

And the playing group as a whole were labelled ‘Hollywood’ pertaining to their alleged rock star lifestyle and egos.

Other big name players are also listed and potentially on the chopping block according to this document.

It’s alleged Levi Casboult, Mark Murphy, Eddie Betts and Caleb Marchbank have had their papers stamped.

And Sam Petreski Seton and Fisher will return to Western Australia. On the trade table, according to the document, would be; Saad, McGovern, Martin and Williams.

The document suggests there was an 11am phone hook up via WebEX between key board members last Sunday, we believe.

The review which is being undertaken presented some initial findings to incoming president Luke Sayers, outgoing president Mark Loguidice and three others (whose names are not listed).

Fiction or fact? Guess we will find out in the weeks and month to come.

Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on August 01, 2021, 12:55:44 pm
Sounds like a Readers Digest version of the rumours that have been in circulation for months.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on August 01, 2021, 12:58:09 pm
Fiction or fact? Guess we will find out in the weeks and month to come.
Well, I'm afraid this is more of what @kruddler‍ would call Captain Obvious, and means very little!

That basically listed all possible directions from two opposing factions, so some of it is bound to be correct!

So it's fortune telling rubbish! ;)
Title: Re: Review
Post by: madbluboy on August 01, 2021, 01:07:11 pm
Sounds like a Readers Digest version of the rumours that have been in circulation for months.

What I found bizarre is "The billionaires" want to keep Teague with a target of top 6 for 2022 but the "non billionaires" want to chop him now. Thought it would have been the other way around.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on August 01, 2021, 01:10:31 pm
What I found bizarre is "The billionaires" want to keep Teague with a target of top 6 for 2022 but the "non billionaires" want to chop him now. Thought it would have been the other way around.

I agree. Maybe they're fed up of paying coaches for no work, because they keep sacking them before the end of their contract.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: madbluboy on August 01, 2021, 01:12:10 pm
I agree. Maybe they're fed up of paying coaches for no work, because they keep sacking them before the end of their contract.

Probably. They're billionaires for a reason.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on August 01, 2021, 01:14:53 pm
I really hope that the supposedly leaked email is a spoof, because if that's the level of judgment and decision making at Board level, it's no better than the average fan, and further reinforces my long held opinion that they need to be cleared out.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: madbluboy on August 01, 2021, 01:26:35 pm
So my mate just told me the content of that article I posted from Tony Sheahan was on bigfooty about a week ago lol.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: madbluboy on August 01, 2021, 01:27:08 pm
Found it.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/carlton-to-enter-mini-rebuild-teague-to-be-sacked-weitering-to-be-captain.1278821/
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on August 01, 2021, 01:29:37 pm
Big Footy and Tony Sheahan. Nothing more to say.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 01, 2021, 01:32:13 pm
Same as the Big footy rumour... Top6 in 2022?..thats unfair, if you keep Teague then you extend him to 3 years and treat him properly. Every game in 2022 will be like a final if that happened and he would be a nervous wreck... If the money men want him then back him..
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on August 01, 2021, 01:35:38 pm
Big Footy and Tony Sheahan. Nothing more to say.
Yep, as I wrote and alluded to earlier, the fact this stuff comes out and gains any traction in the media says far more about our board and our executive than it does about players or coaches.

The silence from our club's officials is deafening, they are the proverbial "Rabbits in the AFL Media's headlights!"

Every time I hear or read stuff like this, I can't help but think the bad old Carlton is kicking violently in it's death throws, the episode has an air of revenge and retribution more than progress. Very much like the factional shizen happening over at the Filth!

Strong club leadership should be silencing the media hoards and steering our club confidently through it, but instead we look like we are reactive and panicky. The silence also shows you how divided our board and executive really is! ;)
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 01, 2021, 01:38:40 pm
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/leaked-high-level-carlton-email-supposedly-reveals-the-future-of-the-club/news-story/a8a86c34cb8c67cf7a01cbf2fedfca3f

An alleged email from deep inside the Carlton hierarchy has found its way to Sheahan ink.

The email which may be true or may be just be a work of fiction offers intriguing suggestions of what the future might look like for the Blue Baggers.

The leaked email, supposedly from a club board member, outlines the club’s mistakes, plans for the future, who is to be sacked, who will or won’t be hired and players’ futures.

We haven’t been able to check the veracity of the claims but the specific details suggest it came from a highly placed insider with intimate knowledge of boardroom politics, executive level decision making, finances and list management.

The ‘person’ suggests the board is divided into two camps: the billionaires, led by Pratt and Mathieson, and the non-billionaires.

The top-level secretive document highlights David Teague’s tenure as senior coach and whether he should be given next season to continue in the job.
Some of what the email reportedly contains includes:

> Does the club ‘give Teague 2022 with new assistants on the basis we are not top six by mid-season, Clarko would be available’ (referring to outgoing Hawks coach Alastair Clarkson), which is the preferred option of the billionaires.

> Or does it ‘make a change now because Teague cannot create a game plan and there is genuine concern over the direction of the group’ — the preferred option of the non-billionaires.

> Alternatives to take over: Brad Scott, Ross Lyon, Alastair Clarkson or Don Pyke.

> Justin Leppitsch’s recent comments on the Blues’ decision-making left a sour taste in their mouth.

> Scott is labelled ‘the most likely pick’ as the AFL ‘wants us to take him’ but there’s a query over his ability to recruit big name assistants, unlike Ross Lyon.

> Lyon is very unlikely to get the job because of the way he left Fremantle.

> Pyke is very well liked by the review team with John ‘Horse’ Longmire saying he ‘is the best assistant we’ve ever had’ at the Swans.

> Leppitsch very unlikely. Not good at Lions.

> A process will be undertaken to appoint a new coach by a panel of football people after a new head of football is appointed.

The email also apparently states the club will be getting rid of Brad Lloyd, Teague and the assistants, bar Luke Power and Daniel O’Keefe.

Cain Liddle’s position as chief executive is under intense scrutiny. The club’s recruiter Nick Austin another in the gun.

A change in the team’s captaincy is also forecast according to the document, stating defender Jacob Weitering would be anointed the new leader with young gun Sam Walsh his vice-captain.

Patrick Cripps needs to focus on his body and getting fit, it reportedly states.

And the playing group as a whole were labelled ‘Hollywood’ pertaining to their alleged rock star lifestyle and egos.

Other big name players are also listed and potentially on the chopping block according to this document.

It’s alleged Levi Casboult, Mark Murphy, Eddie Betts and Caleb Marchbank have had their papers stamped.

And Sam Petreski Seton and Fisher will return to Western Australia. On the trade table, according to the document, would be; Saad, McGovern, Martin and Williams.

The document suggests there was an 11am phone hook up via WebEX between key board members last Sunday, we believe.

The review which is being undertaken presented some initial findings to incoming president Luke Sayers, outgoing president Mark Loguidice and three others (whose names are not listed).

Fiction or fact? Guess we will find out in the weeks and month to come.


Thats a rehash of the Fish Sticks rumour on BF. The person was found to be a troll. If journos are using that crap as their material/source, they are farked.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: madbluboy on August 01, 2021, 01:41:55 pm
Thats a rehash of the Fish Sticks rumour on BF. The person was found to be a troll. If journos are using that crap as their material/source, they are larked.

Tony Sheahan, is that Mike's son?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 01, 2021, 01:42:36 pm
Tony Sheahan, is that Mike's son?
No idea. There are genuine people on BF who are "In The Know", when they post you can just about take it to the bank. There are a number of idiots posting crap at the moment, the real ITKs are very quiet and have posted nothing. This is a good thing, I am expecting this report to be kept in house and not be made public. If the ITKs are quiet, you know its working.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on August 01, 2021, 01:43:07 pm
Tony Sheahan, is that Mike's son?

I'm pretty sure it is.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on August 01, 2021, 02:17:44 pm
I'm pretty sure it is.
 
 Tony Two Phones
Title: Re: Review
Post by: laj on August 01, 2021, 02:39:28 pm
Tony Sheahan, is that Mike's son?

Yes.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: townsendcalling on August 01, 2021, 03:17:07 pm
That report is simply a rehash of supporter thoughts and ideas across a whole lot of social media platforms, aimed at stirring up the masses.  I don’t believe a word of it came from the club itself most likely some opposition tosser who is now smiling because he got old Two Phones, hook, line and sinker!!!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 01, 2021, 03:41:43 pm
That report is simply a rehash of supporter thoughts and ideas across a whole lot of social media platforms, aimed at stirring up the masses.  I don’t believe a word of it came from the club itself most likely some opposition tosser who is now smiling because he got old Two Phones, hook, line and sinker!!!
It was a Big Footy troll account.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 01, 2021, 03:44:17 pm
Tony Sheahan, is that Mike's son?
Yep known as "Two phones Tony" in the trade....not known for being so reliable and as GTC pointed out thats a rehash of the
Big Footy rumour.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on August 01, 2021, 03:47:41 pm
Yep got that one the day after the North Melbourne game.

The tell for me was that it was highly unlikely anyone making decisions about the club would be that reactive after one game in which the leading coleman medalist didnt play.

If they are thinking like this, they can all exit stage left.

I want one change and one change only from here, "SACK THE BOARD".

They are the only piece of the under performing puzzle left, and them choosing to sack coaches (AGAIN) is evidence they have no idea how to run a succesful footy club.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 01, 2021, 04:12:00 pm
Not sure what the fascination is with Don Pyke...every year he was at Adelaide they got worse in terms of wins and he presided over the now infamous pre season training torture camp.
Dons idea of preseason mental stimulation or should I say disintegration was to blindfold his players and then subject them to reigning premier Richmond's theme song on a bus trip between sites.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on August 01, 2021, 04:16:07 pm
So my mate just told me the content of that article I posted from Tony Sheahan was on bigfooty about a week ago lol.

It was posted on here a week ago too. ;)
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Baggers on August 01, 2021, 04:19:48 pm
Not sure what the fascination is with Don Pyke...every year he was at Adelaide they got worse in terms of wins...


Thought exactly the same thing.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on August 01, 2021, 04:27:09 pm
Bigfooty is a funny one.

A lot of what's on there is speculative rubbish....but if a story about the club is about to break or you want genuine inside info you will probably find it on there first. 
The trick is to know who's fair dinkum and who is a 'pretender'
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on August 01, 2021, 04:37:26 pm
Pyke has the best W/L of any Crows full time coach, and at the time of his sacking, had the 5th highest W/L of the then current coaches. 56W-36L-1D. Got the crows to a GF, 2 time premiership player, looks like he's doing good things at the Swans. His record speaks for itself. Just keep him away from any off season planning.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Professer E on August 01, 2021, 04:47:56 pm
Just how (or why) are we supposed to trade fresh recruits on big money like Saad and Williams?  Pure unadulterated bull crap.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on August 01, 2021, 07:19:20 pm
Just how (or why) are we supposed to trade fresh recruits on big money like Saad and Williams?  Pure unadulterated bull crap.
If we did trade them, they probably wouldn't get the same $ which means we'd be paying some of their salary AND the salary of the new guys who took their spot......who would be worse, because we can't afford to pay them the same amount (or more) because if we did we'd be further over the cap (or cap trouble)  than we already are.

So either keep the players we've already got.
Or
We get in more cap trouble
Or
We have a less talented list.


So why would we trade them?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 01, 2021, 07:30:45 pm
Just how (or why) are we supposed to trade fresh recruits on big money like Saad and Williams?  Pure unadulterated bull crap.
As Krud suggested you would be paying part of their money to get a trade done as no one is going to pay them what they are on with us. Saad is the one who has given us value but is on less money than the others and very happy to keep him.
I think McGovern wouldnt get you anything as a trade and no one is taking on Williams for another 5 years given his injury problems. Martin has a lot of talent but doesnt do enough, dare I say it but maybe a Clarkson,Scott or Lyon might get him to extract the digit a bit more and get more meaningful minutes out of him.
Its up to the coaching staff to get these well paid players up and running so I think it will be the coaches going rather than those players at this stage.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Milhanna13 on August 02, 2021, 10:06:09 am
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/leaked-high-level-carlton-email-supposedly-reveals-the-future-of-the-club/news-story/a8a86c34cb8c67cf7a01cbf2fedfca3f

An alleged email from deep inside the Carlton hierarchy has found its way to Sheahan ink.

The email which may be true or may be just be a work of fiction offers intriguing suggestions of what the future might look like for the Blue Baggers.

The leaked email, supposedly from a club board member, outlines the club’s mistakes, plans for the future, who is to be sacked, who will or won’t be hired and players’ futures.

We haven’t been able to check the veracity of the claims but the specific details suggest it came from a highly placed insider with intimate knowledge of boardroom politics, executive level decision making, finances and list management.

The ‘person’ suggests the board is divided into two camps: the billionaires, led by Pratt and Mathieson, and the non-billionaires.

The top-level secretive document highlights David Teague’s tenure as senior coach and whether he should be given next season to continue in the job.
Some of what the email reportedly contains includes:

> Does the club ‘give Teague 2022 with new assistants on the basis we are not top six by mid-season, Clarko would be available’ (referring to outgoing Hawks coach Alastair Clarkson), which is the preferred option of the billionaires.

> Or does it ‘make a change now because Teague cannot create a game plan and there is genuine concern over the direction of the group’ — the preferred option of the non-billionaires.

> Alternatives to take over: Brad Scott, Ross Lyon, Alastair Clarkson or Don Pyke.

> Justin Leppitsch’s recent comments on the Blues’ decision-making left a sour taste in their mouth.

> Scott is labelled ‘the most likely pick’ as the AFL ‘wants us to take him’ but there’s a query over his ability to recruit big name assistants, unlike Ross Lyon.

> Lyon is very unlikely to get the job because of the way he left Fremantle.

> Pyke is very well liked by the review team with John ‘Horse’ Longmire saying he ‘is the best assistant we’ve ever had’ at the Swans.

> Leppitsch very unlikely. Not good at Lions.

> A process will be undertaken to appoint a new coach by a panel of football people after a new head of football is appointed.

The email also apparently states the club will be getting rid of Brad Lloyd, Teague and the assistants, bar Luke Power and Daniel O’Keefe.

Cain Liddle’s position as chief executive is under intense scrutiny. The club’s recruiter Nick Austin another in the gun.

A change in the team’s captaincy is also forecast according to the document, stating defender Jacob Weitering would be anointed the new leader with young gun Sam Walsh his vice-captain.

Patrick Cripps needs to focus on his body and getting fit, it reportedly states.

And the playing group as a whole were labelled ‘Hollywood’ pertaining to their alleged rock star lifestyle and egos.

Other big name players are also listed and potentially on the chopping block according to this document.

It’s alleged Levi Casboult, Mark Murphy, Eddie Betts and Caleb Marchbank have had their papers stamped.

And Sam Petreski Seton and Fisher will return to Western Australia. On the trade table, according to the document, would be; Saad, McGovern, Martin and Williams.

The document suggests there was an 11am phone hook up via WebEX between key board members last Sunday, we believe.

The review which is being undertaken presented some initial findings to incoming president Luke Sayers, outgoing president Mark Loguidice and three others (whose names are not listed).

Fiction or fact? Guess we will find out in the weeks and month to come.



Can’t believe the HUN ran with this social-media-generated crap.   It’s been doing the rounds for a while and has been largely discredited, but the HUN give it air???   Just start printing tweets and be done with it
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on August 02, 2021, 10:08:50 am
Can’t believe the HUN ran with this social-media-generated crap.  It’s been doing the rounds for a while and has been largely discredited, but the HUN give it air???  Just start printing tweets and be done with it
But that is what The Hun and News Ltd are all about these days, they aren't reporters or professional journalists, most of them are just sorry ar5e bloggers.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Milhanna13 on August 02, 2021, 10:08:55 am

Anderson has probably been lurking here and has repeated some of the common themes  ::)

Reckon that happens more than we know.  “I’m hearing”. And “rumours have it”. And “a lot of chatter”. All probably mean “I’ve been on a few supporter boards and here are the rumours and theorys”
Title: Re: Review
Post by: LP on August 02, 2021, 10:10:28 am
Reckon that happens more than we know.  “I’m hearing”. And “rumours have it”. And “a lot of chatter”. All probably mean “I’ve been on a few supporter boards and here are the rumours and theorys”
Often the named journalist doesn't even come up with this stuff, the editor decides what runs, and it was school holidays so I wouldn't be surprised it was the work experience kid.

Also, do not discount the possibility that the organisation or reporter is also the source of the rumour. Caro and Flubbo have been doing that for years, they report on rumours they anonymously started!
Title: Re: Review
Post by: dodge on August 12, 2021, 09:16:20 am
Must admit that I'm a little bit toey in anticipation of the board meeting outcomes today.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on August 12, 2021, 09:24:38 am
"I looked at the side running out on the field and then looked up at the stands and thought that's my team up there..."

David Teagues tenure summed up in one sentence.


Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on August 12, 2021, 09:57:16 am
"I looked at the side running out on the field and then looked up at the stands and thought that's my team up there..."

David Teagues tenure summed up in one sentence.




Didn't save Brittain
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on August 12, 2021, 11:46:54 am
^
Nor Ratten.

Those who fail to learn the mistakes of the past, are doomed to repeat them.

We should replace mens sana in corpore sano with the latin equivalent.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: DJC on August 12, 2021, 12:06:59 pm
^
Nor Ratten.

Those who fail to learn the mistakes of the past, are doomed to repeat them.

We should replace mens sana in corpore sano with the latin equivalent.

Perhaps we should focus on the ‘sound body’ part of the motto 🤔
Title: Re: Review
Post by: madbluboy on August 12, 2021, 05:22:51 pm
So the findings of the review are to remain a secret. Why announce the review then?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 12, 2021, 05:27:27 pm
So the findings of the review are to remain a secret. Why announce the review then?
Thats in line with what Mal Speed said weeks ago on radio and makes sense to me.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on August 12, 2021, 05:50:18 pm
So the findings of the review are to remain a secret. Why announce the review then?

This was a big point i made when it was announced mid-year.

There is literally no point announcing it publicly. Do it in private, ideally, don't even tell the people at the club you are doing a review.
The shear fact you tell someone you are conducting a review changes their behaviour and actions.
Tell only those you must, and leave it at that.

Instead, its been public. People are scrambling. We lost Barker mid-year. Others are trying to cover their butt.
Media pressure has gone through the roof.

All for what......silence?
Title: Re: Review
Post by: PaulP on August 12, 2021, 06:15:09 pm
So the findings of the review are to remain a secret. Why announce the review then?

I'm guessing they're keeping it a secret because they don't like the conclusions - i.e the footy department is functioning as well as can be expected, when you factor in that sitting above it is a complete bunch of flogs and halfwits, and rather than throwing grenades every other week because they're incompetent panic merchants, they should support the football personnel properly.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on August 12, 2021, 07:39:59 pm
I don't think the intention was ever to make it fully public...nothing to do with the findings.
I didn't expect them to release them other than in general terms.
It wasn't for us.
It was for the decision makers.

They'll make some changes and say the decisions were the result of the review.
Make up your own minds whether that's Fkd up or not. ;)
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on August 12, 2021, 07:41:20 pm
I don't think the intention was ever to make it fully public...nothing to do with the findings.
I didn't expect them too release them other than in general terms.
It wasn't for us.
It was for the decision makers.

They'll make some changes and say the decisions were the result of the review.
Make up your own minds whether that's Fkd up or not. ;)

You are probably right.

The question i have is......why make it public then?
What is there to gain?

Plenty to lose though....
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Lods on August 12, 2021, 07:49:05 pm
You are probably right.

The question i have is......why make it public then?
What is there to gain?

Plenty to lose though....


To quote a little exchange between Eddie and Caro on Footy Classified


Quote
Eddie: ….But the other part of it is this…If Luke Sayers is running this, he’s no fool, he knows exactly what he’s doing, he’s not telling anybody, but he knows exactly what’s going on, he may well be a committee of one... lining things up to be executed.

Caro: But why bring in all these experts to have a review?

Eddie: To shut the media up.
Problem was... it didn't work.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on August 12, 2021, 07:52:44 pm
To quote a little exchange between Eddie and Caro on Footy Classified

Problem was... it didn't work.


So 'Mr one man committee' has already stuffed up before he has even officially started?
Thats a new record for us.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on August 12, 2021, 09:01:01 pm
In organisations I know of this has pwc written all over it.  Deloitte, KPMG and co all operate the same way.

They conduct a review and then when the changes are implemented they have the source of truth to refer back to which eliminates criticism.

It sounds stupid but sayers is no fool.

Title: Re: Review
Post by: kruddler on August 12, 2021, 09:12:23 pm
In organisations I know of this has pwc written all over it.  Deloitte, KPMG and co all operate the same way.

They conduct a review and then when the changes are implemented they have the source of truth to refer back to which eliminates criticism.

It sounds stupid but sayers is no fool.



...and the 'truth' is delivered, not discovered.

....and the 'truth' could not possibly be wrong because it was delivered by 3 wise men.


I've just finished watching an episode of Penn and Teller: Fool Us.
Thats the show where the see a trick and describe how its done without giving away too much info.

This review is all a magic trick.
If Penn was hinting at how its done, he would say its a force with simple misdirection.

I am not fooled.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: Thryleon on August 12, 2021, 09:19:00 pm
...and the 'truth' is delivered, not discovered.

....and the 'truth' could not possibly be wrong because it was delivered by 3 wise men.


I've just finished watching an episode of Penn and Teller: Fool Us.
Thats the show where the see a trick and describe how its done without giving away too much info.

This review is all a magic trick.
If Penn was hinting at how its done, he would say its a force with simple misdirection.

I am not fooled.

That noise will disappear moving forward whatever they do.

Hopefully its extend Teague.


Like I said sayers is no fool.  He's written a green light to implement change which will remove future criticism.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: jeza on August 12, 2021, 09:20:37 pm
I don't think there has been enough made of the board's decision to push back the AGM until February. Transparent attempt to avoid scrutiny right now knowing they need to let the dust settle on the review. Used Covid as an excuse.

Our board is corrupt. Plain and simple.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: capcom on August 12, 2021, 09:34:51 pm
I don't think there has been enough made of the board's decision to push back the AGM until February. Transparent attempt to avoid scrutiny right now knowing they need to let the dust settle on the review. Used Covid as an excuse.

Our board is corrupt. Plain and simple.

Guarantee they are.
Title: Re: Review
Post by: dodge on August 12, 2021, 10:35:44 pm
They have five months from 31 October (EOFY) to hold the AGM.   When do you think they should hold it?  Jan 6th when everyone is on holidays?  You're jumping at shadows on this.

Having a quick look at some previous AGM dates:
25/2/2019
24/2/2020

Let's look at a few practicalities:
Accounts:  They will take time to finalise and then prepare for audit.  Depending on their complexity and any information required by third parties (eg re-valuations) let's say this could take 6 weeks.

Audit:  Auditors would have started their prep in Sept/Oct, however, onsite and actual audit could take 3-4 weeks - depending on complexity.

That's 10 Weeks - say 14th December.  This process is also assuming that in the period, the Board has signed off on the accounts to recommend to the members.

Annual Report needs writing.  This will be in progress while the audit is taking place, however, numbers can't be added until the audit is complete.

Annual Report needs to be finalised and printed.  (yes, there is a reduction in how many are printed, but I am sure they would still need to do some, as it has to be available).

Need to send AGM notices with 21 days notice to members with the annual report and AGM agenda.

This takes us to January.

Melbourne is on holidays until school goes back.

Sometime in Feb is a practical time.  Look at the timing of listed companies AGM's as a comparative.  When was the last AGM held in July for a 30 June year end?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 13, 2021, 08:22:15 pm
Big Nic didnt miss anyone
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 13, 2021, 08:35:47 pm
One of the reasons I don't rate the commentary of past players is they tend to sound like a football specific version of the broader societal trend of old people bagging out the young. When you don't get the desired response, go hard. If you still don't get the desired response, go harder still. It's a very punitive mindset.

Nicholls is justifiably seen as the greatest Blue ever. But that's not a sufficient reason to follow bad, outdated advice IMO.

Lyon got 2 clubs to a GF. That's a fair effort. But the club needs to be clear about why they would pursue him. If they bring him in because they think he will "toughen up the players", in my view that's misguided.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: capcom on August 13, 2021, 08:46:19 pm
Big Nic didnt miss anyone


And nailed it all .... perfect GTC :)))
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Macca37 on August 13, 2021, 08:57:26 pm
One of the reasons I don't rate the commentary of past players is they tend to sound like a football specific version of the broader societal trend of old people bagging out the young. When you don't get the desired response, go hard. If you still don't get the desired response, go harder still. It's a very punitive mindset.

Nicholls is justifiably seen as the greatest Blue ever. But that's not a sufficient reason to follow bad, outdated advice IMO.

Lyon got 2 clubs to a GF. That's a fair effort. But the club needs to be clear about why they would pursue him. If they bring him in because they think he will "toughen up the players", in my view that's misguided.

There is also the broader societal trend of the young automatically ignoring anything said by anyone with grey hair.

It's interesting that your view is that Nicholl's advice is bad and outdated.   I find it to be relevant advice from a great player still in control of his mental faculties.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 13, 2021, 09:07:47 pm
It's interesting that your view is that Nicholl's advice is bad and outdated.
I think some is outdated, some is relevant.

I think the club needs a hard bastard, not necessarily the coach, but to take control and get the various sub-cultures in their place! ;)

We do not want to end up like Sth Melb Hellas, great but all in the past!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 13, 2021, 09:18:25 pm
Report from Tom Brown tonight suggesting Clarko is no 1 choice for next year with Lyon a lock in if he knocks us back.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LoveNavy on August 13, 2021, 09:22:48 pm
Report from Tom Brown tonight suggesting Clarko is no 1 choice for next year with Lyon a lock in if he knocks us back.

I posted this on Teague has to go thread.
Mods please remove as suitable
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Professer E on August 13, 2021, 09:47:12 pm
And you'd trust the "reporting" of the football media?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: DJC on August 13, 2021, 10:53:44 pm
They have five months from 31 October (EOFY) to hold the AGM.   When do you think they should hold it?  Jan 6th when everyone is on holidays?  You're jumping at shadows on this.

Having a quick look at some previous AGM dates:
25/2/2019
24/2/2020

Let's look at a few practicalities:
Accounts:  They will take time to finalise and then prepare for audit.  Depending on their complexity and any information required by third parties (eg re-valuations) let's say this could take 6 weeks.

Audit:  Auditors would have started their prep in Sept/Oct, however, onsite and actual audit could take 3-4 weeks - depending on complexity.

That's 10 Weeks - say 14th December.  This process is also assuming that in the period, the Board has signed off on the accounts to recommend to the members.

Annual Report needs writing.  This will be in progress while the audit is taking place, however, numbers can't be added until the audit is complete.

Annual Report needs to be finalised and printed.  (yes, there is a reduction in how many are printed, but I am sure they would still need to do some, as it has to be available).

Need to send AGM notices with 21 days notice to members with the annual report and AGM agenda.

This takes us to January.

Melbourne is on holidays until school goes back.

Sometime in Feb is a practical time.  Look at the timing of listed companies AGM's as a comparative.  When was the last AGM held in July for a 30 June year end?

It's good to get informed comment, but will it change the perception of supporters who are convinced that our board are there to (a) stroke their own egos, (b) pursue factional agendas, or (c) destroy the club.

The board has made some poor decisions over the journey and will probably make more before they're done.  That doesn't detract from the fact that they give up their time to do what they think is best for our footy club and, like all supporters, they want success ASAP. 

I'm frustrated with our lack of success and I blame the board for that.  However, I think that the board is incrementally improved with each change of personnel.  Is there a viable alternative?  I don't think so.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: DJC on August 13, 2021, 11:19:19 pm
One of the reasons I don't rate the commentary of past players is they tend to sound like a football specific version of the broader societal trend of old people bagging out the young. When you don't get the desired response, go hard. If you still don't get the desired response, go harder still. It's a very punitive mindset.

Nicholls is justifiably seen as the greatest Blue ever. But that's not a sufficient reason to follow bad, outdated advice IMO.

Lyon got 2 clubs to a GF. That's a fair effort. But the club needs to be clear about why they would pursue him. If they bring him in because they think he will "toughen up the players", in my view that's misguided.

Regardless of the era in which they played, the opinions of legends of the game should not be dismissed as bad and outdated. 

I once heard Nicholls asked how he would go against the much taller modern-day ruckmen and his response was along the lines of  working out how he could get an advantage.  I remember watching Carlton vs Collingwood in Len Thompson's first season.  Thommo, at 199cm, had a 10cm height advantage and Nicholls was struggling to get his hand to the ball.  It was a dire situation for Carlton supporters but Big Nick made some adjustments and jumped into and over Thommo.  The man has great footy brain.

As for his comments about our current predicament, who could argue against the proposition that we need a totally invested football director?  Similarly, can anyone dispute the fact that we've been deficient in basic footy skills for 10 years (or more)?

I'm sure that Nicholls didn't mention Ross Lyon and I don't necessarily equate him with "tough bastard".  However, a tough bastard is exactly what we need to ensure that our progress is not derailed by membership-oriented CEOs and success-starved board members.  The challenge is to find and/or develop a coach with the insight of Bolts, the tactical awareness of Barassi and the hardness of Nicholls.  Parkin isn't available but can we make Teague that person?
 
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: capcom on August 13, 2021, 11:38:46 pm
Regardless of the era in which they played, the opinions of legends of the game should not be dismissed as bad and outdated. 
 

Yep. :)  They're entitled to it.  If you don't agree, then try to at least remain silent when referencing a bloody champion.  
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 14, 2021, 07:36:56 am
Some people on here have an extremely patriarchal, borderline fascist expectation that those who have achieved something should not be questioned anywhere, under any circumstances. As if somehow everything they say is Gospel. You take what people say on its merits, not on the status of the author.

Nicholls hasn't been involved in football for decades. He should also be aware that we've already had two tough bastards in the last 20 years, who much like their opposites (the nice guys) have gone south in rapid succession. If that's his idea of a solution, then it's no better than the average punter.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 14, 2021, 08:35:33 am
To me its like the old story of the engineer who charged $10,000 for identifying a faulty component on a large and troublesome machine with an X. When asked for breakdown of his fee, he said $1 for the X, $9,999 for knowing where to put it.
We need more people who make the right decisions not the wrong ones, ones who know where the X's go. Sounds stupid and simplistic but IMO, too many things like poor culture are often mistaken with poor decision making (on and off the field).
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Thryleon on August 14, 2021, 08:37:58 am
Some people on here have an extremely patriarchal, borderline fascist expectation that those who have achieved something should not be questioned anywhere, under any circumstances. As if somehow everything they say is Gospel. You take what people say on its merits, not on the status of the author.

Nicholls hasn't been involved in football for decades. He should also be aware that we've already had two tough bastards in the last 20 years, who much like their opposites (the nice guys) have gone south in rapid succession. If that's his idea of a solution, then it's no better than the average punter.
patriarchal borderline fascist...


For listening to the bloke who our b and f is named after and thinking he has a point?

I too think bic nic might have his wires a bit crossed on this one but if he isn't qualified to comment on the subject I dont know someone who is.

Maybe we should ask Darcy vescio instead?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 14, 2021, 08:56:07 am
The issue is not whether he is entitled to an opinion, the issue is that dissenters should keep their opinions to themselves, and that the Gods cannot be questioned under any circumstances.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 14, 2021, 09:41:45 am
We should always question all "Gods" but we shouldn't stop listening to them.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 14, 2021, 11:02:07 am
Some people on here have an extremely patriarchal, borderline fascist expectation that those who have achieved something should not be questioned anywhere, under any circumstances. As if somehow everything they say is Gospel. You take what people say on its merits, not on the status of the author.

Nicholls hasn't been involved in football for decades. He should also be aware that we've already had two tough bastards in the last 20 years, who much like their opposites (the nice guys) have gone south in rapid succession. If that's his idea of a solution, then it's no better than the average punter.

I think I get where you're coming from, Pauly.

But... (you knew it was coming, didn't you  ;) ).

1. Big Nick is still very involved with what is going on at the CFC. He may not hold an official office, but believe me, he is involved and should be highly regarded as a mentor, as he has the credibility to be such.
It is not fascism or simply giving credibility to an opinion because it comes from a great of the club. This is wisdom. And he deserves more than to be judged simply on using a term like 'tough bastard.' You have to ask yourself, 'what does he mean by tough bastard?' To me it meant finding people with the ability to instill discipline and leadership in a tough bastard of a game.

2. Big Nick has a huge footy IQ. How he outsmarted Hafey in '72 was pure genius... and they were only able to counter it the following year with thuggery. You never lose that intelligence to immediately spot a problem and why it has come about and what works in countering that problem. His experience and knowledge of our game is of great value.

3. Many principles and values in life never change with the passing of years. People who've lived through, and eventually succeeded, at a particular profession do not lose an intelligence, instinct and knowledge for that profession with their advanced years. In fact, being a little separated from the day to day dealings in a work place, gives the elder an objective perspective combined with deep experience that is invaluable. Big Nick, and others who've 'slain the beasts in the arena' carry within them enormous knowledge and wisdom.

4. Rather than rejecting Big Nick's thoughts on our club for the reasons you state, I, personally, would seek and respect his observations - often.

Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 14, 2021, 11:10:15 am
You can still respect someone 100% yet disagree with something they say. This isn't the land of Kim Jong-un.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 14, 2021, 04:17:27 pm
You can still respect someone 100% yet disagree with something they say. This isn't the land of Kim Jong-un.

You sure can. But unlike Nth Korea, you are still free to disagree with their disagreement. I respect you, personally, absolutely, yet I still find myself disagreeing with you... from time to time.  :)
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 14, 2021, 04:28:35 pm
You sure can. But unlike Nth Korea, you are still free to disagree with their disagreement. I respect you, personally, absolutely, yet I still find myself disagreeing with you... from time to time.  :)

Lol. When my head stops spinning, I might try and decipher that. It reminds of the original French slogan for a fragrance I used to wear back in the day, Azzaro Pour Homme : "Un parfum pour les hommes qui aiment les femmes qui aiment les hommes". Not for the slow witted.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: DJC on August 15, 2021, 11:24:55 am
Another bloke who gets written off as a dinosaur from a bygone era is Sellers Maclure.  Given his ongoing involvement in footy from playing days to media commentator, and his astute observations about the game as it is today, I generally value his contributions and yesterday's effort was pretty good.

When asked about the situation at Carlton, he slammed the club for appointing Teague then providing him with no development .  He contrasted Carlton treatment of Teague with the development offered to coaches by other clubs and other sports.  Clearly, Teague's spell as caretaker coach must have been more than enough to discard the training wheels and make him the equal of the League's veteran coaches  ::)

Sellers also made the comment that the club does not like feedback, something that Robert Walls mentioned when declining to answer a question about our club  :(

Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 15, 2021, 11:29:59 am
I'm pretty sure I read Teague saying he did not want or need a mentor or additional support / development when he got the gig.

I'd be curious to know, whether in light of those comments above, Maclure thinks Teague should or should not keep his job.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Thryleon on August 15, 2021, 11:35:03 am
I'm pretty sure I read Teague saying he did not want or need a mentor or additional support / development when he got the gig.

I'd be curious to know, whether in light of those comments above, Maclure thinks Teague should or should not keep his job.
we won't get anywhere until we start maximising peoples potential rather than expecting them to improve us. 
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: capcom on August 15, 2021, 11:38:39 am
Another bloke who gets written off as a dinosaur from a bygone era is Sellers Maclure.  Given his ongoing involvement in footy from playing days to media commentator, and his astute observations about the game as it is today, I generally value his contributions and yesterday's effort was pretty good.

When asked about the situation at Carlton, he slammed the club for appointing Teague then providing him with no development .  He contrasted Carlton treatment of Teague with the development offered to coaches by other clubs and other sports.  Clearly, Teague's spell as caretaker coach must have been more than enough to discard the training wheels and make him the equal of the League's veteran coaches  ::)

Sellers also made the comment that the club does not like feedback, something that Robert Walls mentioned when declining to answer a question about our club  :(

Exactly ... love to hear what Wayne Johnston's views are as well.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 15, 2021, 11:48:08 am
we won't get anywhere until we start maximising peoples potential rather than expecting them to improve us. 

Yes, I agree. Too many seem to expect the coach to come in and rescue the club, but that's not possible IMO. Modern football clubs have different departments - the football department is but one, and the senior coach isn't even the top man in there. He has a director of football above him, then the rest of the executive, then the board. When you add in external moneymen who also demand input and influence, I'm not really sure the coach actually has that much clout.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: dodge on August 15, 2021, 11:57:30 am
Since 1965 Carlton has had 19 coaches (includes two stints by Jeza and Parkin).  That is under three years a coach.

Barassi was appointed coach in 1965.  He lasted 7 years (to 1971).  Parkin in his second stint went from 91-00 - 10years.  That's 17 years for two coaches.    Take these off and we get 17 coaches in 39 years.  Less than 2.5 years per coach!  (Does include '78 where there were three coaches).  Got this from Blueseum.  A curiosity is it lists both Nicolls and McKenzie as coaches from 72-75.  40 coaches since 1902 - three years per coach.

I don't really know the history of the 60s and 70s, but the Carlton way that I grew up with was to buy success - particularly in the 80s and 90s.  There was the odd developed player, but not many.  We know how this ended in 2002.

Have we actually learnt anything from the draft era - that we actually have to work hard and invest in the coaches and development of players?  It is a whole of club approach needed, not an appoint one person who will fix it all.

(While I was typing - a couple of posts have covered some of this)
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 15, 2021, 12:04:10 pm
Since 1965 Carlton has had 19 coaches (includes two stints by Jeza and Parkin).  That is under three years a coach.

Barassi was appointed coach in 1965.  He lasted 7 years (to 1971).  Parkin in his second stint went from 91-00 - 10years.  That's 17 years for two coaches.    Take these off and we get 17 coaches in 39 years.  Less than 2.5 years per coach!  (Does include '78 where there were three coaches).  Got this from Blueseum.  A curiosity is it lists both Nicolls and McKenzie as coaches from 72-75.  40 coaches since 1902 - three years per coach.

I don't really know the history of the 60s and 70s, but the Carlton way that I grew up with was to buy success - particularly in the 80s and 90s.  There was the odd developed player, but not many.  We know how this ended in 2002.

Have we actually learnt anything from the draft era - that we actually have to work hard and invest in the coaches and development of players?  It is a whole of club approach needed, not an appoint one person who will fix it all.

(While I was typing - a couple of posts have covered some of this)

I think there have been genuine attempts to embrace modernity, but up till now, they have been embraced half heartedly, incompetently, or killed off before they had time to bear fruit. The Bolton / SOS rebuild is the most conspicuous example, but folks inside and outside the club got the jack of that before it was finished, assuming it was even undertaken correctly to begin with. There's a good reason why Malthouse refused to be part of a rebuild. He knew it would take forever, and he knew that you had to give supporters some sort of hope, rather than a ground zero wasteland and years at the bottom. Hence the famous "coach and club are no longer in alignment". And yet again, he was right.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 15, 2021, 12:30:57 pm
I'm pretty sure I read Teague saying he did not want or need a mentor or additional support / development when he got the gig.

I'd be curious to know, whether in light of those comments above, Maclure thinks Teague should or should not keep his job.

I guess there’s two things there, a young coach who isn’t sure enough of himself to say “I’d like a little help here please”
Possibly a club saying “You’re a big boy David, you don’t need help do you ?”
Maybe the club should have been saying “You’ve got a big job ahead mate, who would you like out of MrX, MrY or MrZ to work with you?”
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 15, 2021, 12:34:54 pm
I guess there’s two things there, a young coach who isn’t sure enough of himself to say “I’d like a little help here please”
Possibly a club saying “You’re a big boy David, you don’t need help do you ?”
Maybe the club should have been saying “You’ve got a big job ahead mate, who would you like out of MrX, MrY or MrZ to work with you?”

Yes, I tend to agree. Especially when covid hit, it became even more important (I understand clubs had to reduce spending). If he did approach the club for help, and they told him they have no money, then sacking him becomes even more problematic IMO.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 15, 2021, 12:46:02 pm
Yes, I tend to agree. Especially when covid hit, it became even more important (I understand clubs had to reduce spending). If he did approach the club for help, and they told him they have no money, then sacking him becomes even more problematic IMO.
We are run by a board and executive that have a profit first emphasis, that means commercial decisions over football decisions, it explains so much.

When COVID hit, profits were down and costs were cut, the assistants got the kybosh, the exact wrong thing to do from a football perspective!

Nthmond have done one thing better than any other club, they left the football to the football staff, and the commercial to the commercial staff, and the two never overlap. Not even their Gale interferes in the football and he is far more qualified than most, I wonder if that compartmentalising ethos is why Liddle ended up with us, because he seems to micro-manage!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 15, 2021, 12:58:16 pm
I'm pretty sure I read Teague saying he did not want or need a mentor or additional support / development when he got the gig.

I'd be curious to know, whether in light of those comments above, Maclure thinks Teague should or should not keep his job.

Remember 2020? Remember Covid?? Remember how many people lost their jobs because of it? You want teague to say, actually, give me more help (and as a result someone else loses their job).

Another reason why Teague needs the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 15, 2021, 11:11:12 pm
https://www.theage.com.au/link/follow-20170101-p58iv9
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Micky0 on August 15, 2021, 11:13:59 pm
https://www.theage.com.au/link/follow-20170101-p58iv9
Yep thanks new Prez - great first act as incoming Prez, call a review mid season and make it known by chatting to all the players then have the results and not even have the decency to speak to the players and coaches.  What a joke.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Lods on August 16, 2021, 09:10:13 am
Well the review is in.
Decisions are probably well advanced (some may have even been made prior to the whole thing starting ;) )

It's just a waiting game now and next week looks set to be an interesting one.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 16, 2021, 09:22:07 am
Well the review is in.
Decisions are probably well advanced (some may have even been made prior to the whole thing starting ;) )

It's just a waiting game now and next week looks set to be an interesting one.
I wonder if the rumours around Eddie retiring mean he has got a sniff that his mate Teaguey is gonski.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Lods on August 16, 2021, 09:30:06 am
I wonder if the rumours around Eddie retiring mean he has got a sniff that his mate Teaguey is gonski.

I think it's probably more a case of the club has said to Eddie
'It's time, we've got a lot of small forward options we'd like to develop, we're not offering you a contract for next year...but by 'retiring' it looks like it's your decision."
I'm sure the club will look after Eddie with a job.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 16, 2021, 10:26:27 am
LoG handing over the reigns this week (earlier than planned) so that Sayers has clean air to deliver findings and implement change. My immediate thought is that LoG is no longer the executioner, Sayers is. Interesting couple of weeks coming up.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 16, 2021, 10:40:29 am
https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/1002305/from-the-president-logiudice-s-message-to-blues

MLG's open letter states that what the Board received last week was an "update", and the review is in fact still continuing :

The independent, external panel last week provided an update to incoming President Luke Sayers and the Board. This update was part of the review process which remains ongoing and any further updates will be communicated to members in due course.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Thryleon on August 16, 2021, 11:07:33 am
LoG handing over the reigns this week (earlier than planned) so that Sayers has clean air to deliver findings and implement change. My immediate thought is that LoG is no longer the executioner, Sayers is. Interesting couple of weeks coming up.

Ill go you one better.

Whoever is coaching Carlton next year, you can bet that there is a lucrative sponsorship deal that will go through with it.

We are not serving anything but the almighty dollar, and football clubs are not football clubs anymore.

They are financial entities in the entertainment industry, and our niche market that the CFC has carved out for itself, is to be the villain that everyone despises, and loves kicking whilst they are down and we work extremely hard not to lift ourselves off the canvas, and its our hubris that does it. 
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LoveNavy on August 16, 2021, 11:36:34 am
"Stability and managed succession are still the keys to the future success of this football club" says LoG.

Not convinced our decision makers know what stability means. Our recent history tells a story of significant instability.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: capcom on August 16, 2021, 11:39:20 am
"Stability and managed succession are still the keys to the future success of this football club" says LoG.

Not convinced our decision makers know what stability means. Our recent history tells a story of significant instability.

He don't know sh*t about stability
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 16, 2021, 01:04:20 pm
You don't ever call a review mid-season. Players, coaches are playing with a sword hanging over them for half a year. Eventually you get so much disunity you get what we have seen the last couple of weeks. Trust everywhere is gone. Teague had little support, no help, players being interviewed about him, essentially hung out to dry. Then we expect a young coach to perform under pressure and his players to perform each week. Easy for us sitting being our keyboard, we're not there copping it and coping with the stress. Damn lucky we were still a finals chance for as long as it was.

There's things he could have focussed more on, like team defence, but that defence did work ok when the players felt like doing it, as is also a big issue discussed ad nauseum, especially after that blast at half time against Hawthorn. Last year was our chance. We were equal 4th for qtrs won, but the 5 goal bursts, hence bad qtrs, cost us. Young coach rookie error. That could be sorted with another preseason. Last preseason was unfortunately a short one due to COVID. Plus too we choked up 2 last qtrs in 5 days when finals looked right on for us.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: jeza on August 16, 2021, 01:08:50 pm
I just hope we stick with Teague and find some gun assistant coaches to support him and, in particular, run the midfield.

We saw what it did for Kennedy and Dow when Barker walked out. We need fresh ideas across all lines but in particular our midfield is our biggest issue.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 16, 2021, 01:14:40 pm
@laj

Agree about the review timing. Atrocious people management that effectively torpedoed the club’s season by destroying trust from top down. I hope Sayers has learned something but I doubt it. It was an act of arrogance that portends ill for the future.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 16, 2021, 01:16:14 pm
I guess we will never know which individual(s) are responsible for our debt free financial position, but whomever they are, I say thanks. Hopefully this will be the first step in ridding ourselves of moneyed, external power brokers for good.  

MLG strikes me as being a good Carlton man. I've got no doubt he loves the club, but I'm not sure he has the clout or the personality to deal with interfering busybodies who act with very poor judgment.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 16, 2021, 01:21:23 pm
@laj

Agree about the review timing. Atrocious people management that effectively torpedoed the club’s season by destroying trust from top down. I hope Sayers has learned something but I doubt it. It was an act of arrogance that portends ill for the future.

One has to wonder whether Sayers knew exactly what he was doing, knew it would lead to bad results, which then provides "evidence" that Teague is not the man for the job.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 16, 2021, 01:24:04 pm
One has to wonder whether Sayers knew exactly what he was doing, knew it would lead to bad results, which then provides "evidence" that Teague is not the man for the job.

Paul I’m shocked - your cynicism exceeds mine. 😉😎
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 16, 2021, 01:26:18 pm
Paul I’m shocked - your cynicism exceeds mine. 😉😎

Lol. It's not usually my go, but CEO's and ex CEO's of big 4 accounting firms are probably a breed apart.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 16, 2021, 01:50:37 pm
'Old Carlton' by now, even well before now, would have sacked Teague and a caretaker would be, or would have been, in place. For those, including me, who've questioned our Board, I sense change in governance and procedures is afoot. Thus far, a pleasant change and hopefully indicative of a 'new' and strong direction. Good to see MLG handing over this week. On his watch the dreadful debt has been erased, an important legacy... now to strengthen those foundations and address and restructure the footy dept. Hard to imagine those complicit in the poor governance re the footy dept getting off scot-free. Has the broom of accountability hit the floor ready to begin sweeping?

Well, I guess I remain one of the few who doesn't have an issue with launching an independent review mid-season - for me this was a 'long view' approach. At the risk of appearing somewhat callous, only the non-performers need feel pressured by something like this. Plus I'd prefer, using a medical metaphor, a patient's (CFC) concerning symptomatology be addressed asap, regardless of who might feel pressured or inconvenienced.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 16, 2021, 01:52:20 pm
One has to wonder whether Sayers knew exactly what he was doing, knew it would lead to bad results, which then provides "evidence" that Teague is not the man for the job.
He neglected to consider one small detail in that rather elaborate plan, we aint farken stupid.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: percy on August 16, 2021, 01:53:11 pm
One has to wonder whether Sayers knew exactly what he was doing, knew it would lead to bad results, which then provides "evidence" that Teague is not the man for the job.
[/quote]
If he was prepared to sabotage our season with this review he better have something pretty special up his sleeve and sell it well.
I really believe the timing of this review has screwed up the season and this week's game scares me.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 16, 2021, 02:31:52 pm
He neglected to consider one small detail in that rather elaborate plan, we aint farken stupid.

If he was prepared to sabotage our season with this review he better have something pretty special up his sleeve and sell it well.
I really believe the timing of this review has screwed up the season and this week's game scares me.

The review was called after Teague had coached about 40 games. 40 games !! How is that even possible ? With covid and all the rest. I'm not sure if they think Teague is making them look bad because the results don't fit with their unrealistic, feel good messaging in pre season, or what's going on. But that's appalling. His W/L hovers around 40%-45%. It's not that bad, and not the sort of results that warrant a review IMO.

So as I see it, the Board is either incompetent or malevolent or both (as I've said before). It's hard to believe Sayers couldn't see this coming. He wants to show the fans that he's taking action, but it just seems like the same old panicked, knee jerk, rash decision making from the masters in the field.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: jeza on August 16, 2021, 02:46:49 pm
'Old Carlton' by now, even well before now, would have sacked Teague and a caretaker would be, or would have been, in place. For those, including me, who've questioned our Board, I sense change in governance and procedures is afoot. Thus far, a pleasant change and hopefully indicative of a 'new' and strong direction. Good to see MLG handing over this week. On his watch the dreadful debt has been erased, an important legacy... now to strengthen those foundations and address and restructure the footy dept. Hard to imagine those complicit in the poor governance re the footy dept getting off scot-free. Has the broom of accountability hit the floor ready to begin sweeping?

Well, I guess I remain one of the few who doesn't have an issue with launching an independent review mid-season - for me this was a 'long view' approach. At the risk of appearing somewhat callous, only the non-performers need feel pressured by something like this. Plus I'd prefer, using a medical metaphor, a patient's (CFC) concerning symptomatology be addressed asap, regardless of who might feel pressured or inconvenienced.


I can't say I agree with much in this post.

Being debt free is great but you don't walk into the foyer at Princes Park and look at the spreadsheets on the wall.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: jeza on August 16, 2021, 02:47:48 pm
He neglected to consider one small detail in that rather elaborate plan, we aint farken stupid.

Speak for yourself.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: jeza on August 16, 2021, 02:50:19 pm
The review was called after Teague had coached about 40 games. 40 games !! How is that even possible ? With covid and all the rest. I'm not sure if they think Teague is making them look bad because the results don't fit with their unrealistic, feel good messaging in pre season, or what's going on. But that's appalling. His W/L hovers around 40%-45%. It's not that bad, and not the sort of results that warrant a review IMO.

So as I see it, the Board is either incompetent or malevolent or both (as I've said before). It's hard to believe Sayers couldn't see this coming. He wants to show the fans that he's taking action, but it just seems like the same old panicked, knee jerk, rash decision making from the masters in the field.


In fairness to the board the review wasn't into David Teague. The media have made it so - which is the bit our board missed when they launched it. They've created a pressure-cooker environment for Teague from that point on. An unsafe work environment from a mental health perspective.

Nice way to start your presidency.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 16, 2021, 03:04:08 pm
In fairness to the board the review wasn't into David Teague. The media have made it so - which is the bit our board missed when they launched it. They've created a pressure-cooker environment for Teague from that point on. An unsafe work environment from a mental health perspective.

Nice way to start your presidency.

Yes, I recall MLG saying it wasn't a review of Teague, but once the rather predictable media onslaught started, the club has not come to his aid in any way. They've just hung him out to dry. In the past, MLG has said a few things which turned out to be untrue (e.g Bolton will coach out season 2019, 2 weeks before he was sacked). I'm not usually a cynic, but sometimes the temptation of a famous Claud Cockburn quote (“Believe nothing until it has been officially denied.”) is hard to resist.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 16, 2021, 03:09:42 pm
Yes, I recall MLG saying it wasn't a review of Teague, but once the rather predictable media onslaught started, the club has not come to his aid in any way. They've just hung him out to dry. In the past, MLG has said a few things which turned out to be untrue (e.g Bolton will coach out season 2019, 2 weeks before he was sacked). I'm not usually a cynic, but sometimes the temptation of a famous Claud Cockburn quote (“Believe nothing until it has been officially denied.”) is hard to resist.

I could be wrong but didnt MLG and one other (maybe Sayers) contradict each with one saying "its not about Teague its about reviewing the football dept" and the other said "Teague is part of the football dept therefore he is included" ??
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 16, 2021, 03:17:21 pm
I can't say I agree with much in this post.

Being debt free is great but you don't walk into the foyer at Princes Park and look at the spreadsheets on the wall.

I expect very few to agree with my post. I didn't post it to be popular, it's simply an honest opinion.

If the spreadsheets aren't good, you may not have a foyer to walk into, or cabinets to house cups or walls to hang photos of our greats or a ground to call 'home', but I get your point. The first responsibility of any Board is to ensure viability and fiscal responsibility. They've achieved that, very, very well. From there, however...

If the independent review was held at season's end it would very likely have come to the same conclusions... and then we'd have had only a few weeks before season 2022's commencement, at best, to institute the recommended changes - terrible governance and a wonderful invitation to a giant 8 ball for us to fall in behind.

As I mentioned before, it is apparent to me that the timing of this review sought to address immediate troubles and to take the long view. And to suggest Sayers is guilty of some clandestine sabotage is *****, he would not be where he is today with such a scurrilous attitude or strategy. Quite the contrary.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 16, 2021, 03:20:06 pm
I could be wrong but didnt MLG and one other (maybe Sayers) contradict each with one saying "its not about Teague its about reviewing the football dept" and the other said "Teague is part of the football dept therefore he is included" ??

Well, I guess it depends on how you define a contradiction. I think whoever spoke the first quote would have communicated better if he said "it's not only about Teague its about reviewing the football dept.", which I suspect is what he meant. I think the first quote was just bad communication, and the second is actually correct. There's no way you can review a football department and exclude the senior coach IMO.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 16, 2021, 03:22:24 pm
Yes, I recall MLG saying it wasn't a review of Teague, but once the rather predictable media onslaught started, the club has not come to his aid in any way. They've just hung him out to dry. In the past, MLG has said a few things which turned out to be untrue (e.g Bolton will coach out season 2019, 2 weeks before he was sacked). I'm not usually a cynic, but sometimes the temptation of a famous Claud Cockburn quote (“Believe nothing until it has been officially denied.”) is hard to resist.


I love a good quote, and that's a goodun. How about this one from Oscar Wilde, 'A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing.'  ;)  :)
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 16, 2021, 03:31:09 pm
I love a good quote, and that's a goodun. How about this one from Oscar Wilde, 'A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing.'  ;)  :)

Not bad Baggers. I should also add that I agree with you about the financials. We live in a commercial world. The less dependence we have on wealthy folks, the AFL etc., the better off we'll be. Clubs that are broke do on occasion win flags (North during the Carey years), but generally the wealthier (or at least more self sufficient) clubs tend to dominate flags, finals etc.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 16, 2021, 03:35:12 pm
I love a good quote, and that's a goodun. How about this one from Oscar Wilde, 'A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing.'  ;)  :)

Nice one Baggers, but times have changed since Oscar’s day, and we are dealing with the CFC after all. 🤪
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 16, 2021, 03:43:13 pm
Just doing a small amount of research on the "famous" Richmond review from 2016. I don't recall if they made a public announcement at the start of the review. The article below is dated mid September 2016, and says that the review took over 10 weeks (which I guess we can assume means about 10-11 weeks). Backdating from the article date, it sounds like it may have started early July 2016.

https://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/328448/balme-joins-richmond-as-part-of-football-re-structure

For those interested in further reading, there's two links below : The first is Peggy O'Neal talking about the journey at Richmond under hers and Gale's watch. The second is a HS article from Big Footy that goes into some detail about the Richmond review. Both well worth reading IMO.

https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/membership/company-director-magazine/2019-back-editions/may/how-the-richmond-tigers-are-nailing-great-culture

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/revealed-the-nine-key-points-of-richmond’s-internal-review-that-turned-the-tigers-around.1181342/
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 16, 2021, 03:47:46 pm
Sorry, for whatever reason the Big Footy link isn't working. If you google "Richmond review 2016", you'll find it on the first page, beginning with the title "the nine key points........."
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: jeza on August 16, 2021, 04:16:29 pm
I expect very few to agree with my post. I didn't post it to be popular, it's simply an honest opinion.

If the spreadsheets aren't good, you may not have a foyer to walk into, or cabinets to house cups or walls to hang photos of our greats or a ground to call 'home', but I get your point. The first responsibility of any Board is to ensure viability and fiscal responsibility. They've achieved that, very, very well. From there, however...

If the independent review was held at season's end it would very likely have come to the same conclusions... and then we'd have had only a few weeks before season 2022's commencement, at best, to institute the recommended changes - terrible governance and a wonderful invitation to a giant 8 ball for us to fall in behind.

As I mentioned before, it is apparent to me that the timing of this review sought to address immediate troubles and to take the long view. And to suggest Sayers is guilty of some clandestine sabotage is *****, he would not be where he is today with such a scurrilous attitude or strategy. Quite the contrary.

I don't think there was clandestine sabotage. I agree that is some dumb 5hit.

I just think you have overlooked the board and president are directly responsible for running a football club - not a business. Generating profit is only relevant if you can demonstrate you know how to take those resources and translate it into on-field success. Without that it means nothing.

The pass mark for running a football club can't be $ in isolation.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Milhanna13 on August 16, 2021, 04:26:55 pm
The review was called after Teague had coached about 40 games. 40 games !! How is that even possible ? With covid and all the rest. I'm not sure if they think Teague is making them look bad because the results don't fit with their unrealistic, feel good messaging in pre season, or what's going on. But that's appalling. His W/L hovers around 40%-45%. It's not that bad, and not the sort of results that warrant a review IMO.

So as I see it, the Board is either incompetent or malevolent or both (as I've said before). It's hard to believe Sayers couldn't see this coming. He wants to show the fans that he's taking action, but it just seems like the same old panicked, knee jerk, rash decision making from the masters in the field.


So, hang-on, we all go on, on here, about the poor development of players, the questionable recruiting, the poor drafting (in some years), the lack of ability of the assitant coaches.  But, when the Board launches a review into these things, then they have gone early and sabotaged the season??

Yes, 100% agree that they should have kept it quiet (but, i guess this issue is, if it got out), but i dont agree that they should not have done it.

Review was needed, they did it.  Maybe they have failed in the communication
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: jeza on August 16, 2021, 04:37:06 pm
So, hang-on, we all go on, on here, about the poor development of players, the questionable recruiting, the poor drafting (in some years), the lack of ability of the assitant coaches.  But, when the Board launches a review into these things, then they have gone early and sabotaged the season??

Yes, 100% agree that they should have kept it quiet (but, i guess this issue is, if it got out), but i dont agree that they should not have done it.

Review was needed, they did it.  Maybe they have failed in the communication

I think the review was an effort by the board to make it about someone other than themselves. That drove the timing and explains why they publicised it like they did. They aren't very bright and obsessed with protecting their own ar5es.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 16, 2021, 05:31:52 pm
I just hope we stick with Teague and find some gun assistant coaches to support him and, in particular, run the midfield.

We saw what it did for Kennedy and Dow when Barker walked out. We need fresh ideas across all lines but in particular our midfield is our biggest issue.

You don’t have a clue of Barkers strengths, weaknesses or what he did or didn’t do.
Purely by the length of his tenure it shows beyond doubt that he was universally liked and respected by management and players. In the end that length of tenure was likely what finished him off given that it wasn’t unreasonable that “something” needed to change.
Maybe the playing improvement you saw was simply the result of players seeing someone who they liked being booted and the players responded to that rocket.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: tonyo on August 16, 2021, 05:32:35 pm
I think the review was an effort by the board to make it about someone other than themselves. That drove the timing and explains why they publicised it like they did. They aren't very bright and obsessed with protecting their own ar5es.

Reviews like this one are probably just like a Royal Commission - they are not announced until those who do the announcing know what the outcome is going to be. 

It is also a neat way to shoot Bambi and then be able to point to someone else holding the smoking gun......
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 16, 2021, 05:37:47 pm
His W/L hovers around 40%-45%. It's not that bad, and not the sort of results that warrant a review IMO.


I don’t mind the review, but the timing and publicity has sure sucked…
Review is good and in many ways necessary.
This is smelling a bit like a corporate clearing of the decks to give the new guy a chance to write his own story… I just hope that cfc is front and centre and for the right reasons…
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 16, 2021, 05:46:19 pm
Well the review is in.
Decisions are probably well advanced (some may have even been made prior to the whole thing starting ;) )

It's just a waiting game now and next week looks set to be an interesting one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JVNMmsN3Co
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 16, 2021, 05:56:22 pm
So, hang-on, we all go on, on here, about the poor development of players, the questionable recruiting, the poor drafting (in some years), the lack of ability of the assitant coaches.  But, when the Board launches a review into these things, then they have gone early and sabotaged the season??

Yes, 100% agree that they should have kept it quiet (but, i guess this issue is, if it got out), but i dont agree that they should not have done it.

Review was needed, they did it.  Maybe they have failed in the communication

I can only give an opinion on an opinion based forum. Doing a review mid season for a bloke who has coached 40 games, with a Wl/L around 40-45%, is IMO, absurd. I would also say that there is a time and a way of doing it without making it seem like a head hunting exercise. Our club has form for this type of behaviour - think back to R2 2015 when completely out of the blue they announced a ground zero rebuild. Both that announcement and this current one cause trouble, instability and uncertainty. Think back to the Geelong, Collingwood and Richmond reviews, and then compare them to ours. Night and day IMO.

We all want the club to get better - the club has issues, as all clubs do, But we seem to pick the most unhelpful, destructive way of fixing those issues IMO. Which experts at the club thought we were playing finals this season ? I never thought that, and if Teague is being judged against unachievable goals, then maybe those that pluck random expectations out of their clacker are the ones who should be reviewed, and not the coach.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: bricky on August 16, 2021, 06:19:20 pm
We all want the club to get better - the club has issues, as all clubs do, But we seem to pick the most unhelpful, destructive way of fixing those issues IMO. Which experts at the club thought we were playing finals this season ? I never thought that, and if Teague is being judged against unachievable goals, then maybe those that pluck random expectations out of their clacker are the ones who should be reviewed, and not the coach.
Spot on
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Milhanna13 on August 17, 2021, 10:13:07 am
I can only give an opinion on an opinion based forum. Doing a review mid season for a bloke who has coached 40 games, with a Wl/L around 40-45%, is IMO, absurd. I would also say that there is a time and a way of doing it without making it seem like a head hunting exercise. Our club has form for this type of behaviour - think back to R2 2015 when completely out of the blue they announced a ground zero rebuild. Both that announcement and this current one cause trouble, instability and uncertainty. Think back to the Geelong, Collingwood and Richmond reviews, and then compare them to ours. Night and day IMO.

We all want the club to get better - the club has issues, as all clubs do, But we seem to pick the most unhelpful, destructive way of fixing those issues IMO. Which experts at the club thought we were playing finals this season ? I never thought that, and if Teague is being judged against unachievable goals, then maybe those that pluck random expectations out of their clacker are the ones who should be reviewed, and not the coach.

Fair shout.   I think we all agreed a review needed to occur.  They have just handled it badly  (no surprises!!)
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 17, 2021, 10:28:49 am
I think we all agreed a review needed to occur.
The review was supposed to be club wide, but was it?

If it wasn't club wide did it really target the root of the problem or just ignore it?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 17, 2021, 10:31:20 am
The review was supposed to be club wide, but was it?

If it wasn't club wide did it really target the root of the problem or just ignore it?

If the Board and Executive had any balls, the review had to be club wide, and they should have used the same mob that Richmond used.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 17, 2021, 10:36:21 am
Further to my previous post, focussing on one department creates an us and them situation - just more disunity IMO.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: DJC on August 18, 2021, 11:47:57 am
From the new president:
Quote
This process [the review] is now reaching its final stages and I assure you we will not be making any public comment until we have directly communicated with you, our members. This will include providing you with the summarised findings of the review that I know members have a deep and justified interest in.

I think that might deflate a few in the media  ::)
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 18, 2021, 05:35:46 pm
So, hang-on, we all go on, on here, about the poor development of players, the questionable recruiting, the poor drafting (in some years), the lack of ability of the assitant coaches.  But, when the Board launches a review into these things, then they have gone early and sabotaged the season??

Yes, 100% agree that they should have kept it quiet (but, i guess this issue is, if it got out), but i dont agree that they should not have done it.

Review was needed, they did it.  Maybe they have failed in the communication

About timing. When players, coaches and others play half a season with a sword hanging over their head it just creates distrust and disunity. Hence you get the performances like we have seen recently. For a young coach the pressure must've been enormous. Must've been hard to think clear and concisely as you would need to in that position.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 18, 2021, 06:53:33 pm
About timing. When players, coaches and others play half a season with a sword hanging over their head it just creates distrust and disunity. Hence you get the performances like we have seen recently. For a young coach the pressure must've been enormous. Must've been hard to think clear and concisely as you would need to in that position.
I disagree, we have been performing exactly the same every year more or less without reviews occurring.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 18, 2021, 06:58:20 pm
Also reported on Ch7 by Tom Browne tonight was something about Chris Judd has been involved in the review, I didn't catch it properly maybe someone else heard and they can elaborate.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 18, 2021, 07:06:07 pm
Also reported on Ch7 by Tom Browne tonight was something about Chris Judd has been involved in the review, I didn't catch it properly maybe someone else heard and they can elaborate.

Conflicting reports, dated 13th August :

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/football-expertise-on-blues-board-queried-as-they-assess-review-20210813-p58ilj.html

Carlton great Chris Judd is set to officially step down from the board at the end of the season along with outgoing president Mark LoGiudice after making his intention to depart the club clear in May, a month before the independent review was called.

Judd did not attend Thursday night’s board meeting where the review was presented and has not been involved since the club commissioned respected football judges Geoff Walsh, Matthew Pavlich and Graham Lowe to conduct the review.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 18, 2021, 07:13:16 pm
Lets have a look at the review and some of the information that has come out recently.

1. Eddie Betts has been told this is it.....and was told 3 weeks ago.
2. Levi has been told similar, when....we don't quite now, but we just found out.
3. Gold Coast have already contacted and sought out Levi Casboult.....so it suggests that he was also told a little while ago.

Now....park that for a minute and think about this.

Teague....the biggest problem people have with his time as coach has been 'his' performance against bottom placed North Melbourne (despite having no KPPs available). Further to that was our performance against Port.

Putting it all together....
Our team performance went down hill at the exact time....
1. Betts was told he was no longer required.
2. Docherty found out his cancer had returned
3. We had our weakest ever side available for selection.
.....and potentially Murphy, Casboult and whoever else as well.

Now the 2 and 3 are flat out unfortunate, but 1 is on the club and the timing.

The review has caused issues for the coach and the coach has been put under pressure by the review. Its a self fulfilling prophecy.

Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 18, 2021, 07:35:24 pm
Its a self fulfilling prophecy.
Some will say that is exactly how corporate reviews work.

The question is posed only after the preferred answer is known!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Macca37 on August 18, 2021, 07:44:16 pm
Also reported on Ch7 by Tom Browne tonight was something about Chris Judd has been involved in the review, I didn't catch it properly maybe someone else heard and they can elaborate.

I did not hear the first few seconds of Tom Browne's report but I also did hear that Judd had had input into the review.

Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 18, 2021, 08:01:30 pm
Some will say that is exactly how corporate reviews work.

The question is posed only after the preferred answer is known!
I said similar as soon as the review was announced. The mere fact it was announced changed what was being observed. People simply change the way they behave when they know they are being observed
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 18, 2021, 08:14:14 pm
I said similar as soon as the review was announced. The mere fact it was announced changed what was being observed. People simply change the way they behave when they know they are being observed
They are being observed/scrutinised every week of every year whether it's by official reviewers, coaches, boards, supporters, media etc.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Lods on August 18, 2021, 08:34:49 pm
MLG didn't want to be the one to wield the axe anymore.
It's been handed over.
Next week Sayers will start to make the changes he feels necessary or wants.

It will have little to do with the review.
The review was just a facade.
It will have provided information that was always already well known.
Where it conflicts with what is desired it will be ignored.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 18, 2021, 09:40:03 pm
They are being observed/scrutinised every week of every year whether it's by official reviewers, coaches, boards, supporters, media etc.
Yes, but they largely ignore all external noise and focus on what their safe place wants eg coaches and club. Now their safe place has turned on them and is out for blood. Its every man for himself!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 18, 2021, 09:52:57 pm
Well Ross aint gonna coach Coll, he stated on FC he is not interested.
Will take a call from us and consider it if a vacancy becomes available.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 18, 2021, 10:18:27 pm
Well Ross aint gonna coach Coll, he stated on FC he is not interested.
Will take a call from us and consider it if a vacancy becomes available.

Looks like Clarko or him as 2nd choice from what transpired.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 18, 2021, 11:17:45 pm
Looks like Clarko or him as 2nd choice from what transpired.
My money is on Ross Lyon now,said he has a connection with the club and a lot of older ex players are endorsing him.
Got that smug look too.....
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Micky0 on August 18, 2021, 11:37:54 pm
My money is on Ross Lyon now,said he has a connection with the club and a lot of older ex players are endorsing him.
Got that smug look too.....
Thought the same 😔
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Macca37 on August 18, 2021, 11:53:27 pm
Thought the same 😔

With Judd's involvement in the review I'm tipping Lyon with a 4 year contract.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 19, 2021, 07:41:59 am
Lyon only if Clarko declines it imo.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 08:07:05 am
Rather than spending a bazillion dollars on a Lyon / Clarkson etc., then having bugger all money for good assistants, why not stick with Teague and surround him with decent lieutenants like the Rutten/Caracella/Giansiracusa combo ?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 19, 2021, 08:08:45 am
While there is perhaps a bit of negativity surrounding Brad Lloyd with some fans, and scepticism regarding the appointment of Austin as a replacement for SOS, I can't say they have done much wrong. But have we seen much from them, they are basically criticised for being largely absent from the debate, have they had time to have an influence yet?

I thought Lloyd was better around the time of the Plowman MRP debacle, but I can't help but wonder if our Exec and Board are more focussed on the lost appeals fee than being outraged at the Plowman suspension. I'll bet you a penny to a pound that is the case! btw., A decision that has since been contradicted by the MRP and Tribunal more than once since the event, as a precedent it did not even last a month!

So I'd pose this question.

Given the board we have, and given that Liddle seems to run everything, how much of what 'they' do is a consequence of external interference. Do we get to judge them on merit, or is what we see or don't see a result of interference and constraints?

Should we expect anything to change under Sayers, or is it just more of the same?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 19, 2021, 08:32:38 am
I too have absolutely zero idea how good Lloyd is at his job, but I was impressed that he went in to bat for both Williams and Plowman and challenged the tribunal, we lost but he flew the flag.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 19, 2021, 08:34:38 am
Rather than spending a bazillion dollars on a Lyon / Clarkson etc., then having bugger all money for good assistants, why not stick with Teague and surround him with decent lieutenants like the Rutten/Caracella/Giansiracusa combo ?
It sounds like that ship has sailed, there will be new assistants, also a new head coach.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 19, 2021, 08:41:34 am
While there is perhaps a bit of negativity surrounding Brad Lloyd with some fans, and scepticism regarding the appointment of Austin as a replacement for SOS, I can't say they have done much wrong. But have we seen much from them, they are basically criticised for being largely absent from the debate, have they had time to have an influence yet?

I thought Lloyd was better around the time of the Plowman MRP debacle, but I can't help but wonder if our Exec and Board are more focussed on the lost appeals fee than being outraged at the Plowman suspension. I'll bet you a penny to a pound that is the case! btw., A decision that has since been contradicted by the MRP and Tribunal more than once since the event, as a precedent it did not even last a month!

So I'd pose this question.

Given the board we have, and given that Liddle seems to run everything, how much of what 'they' do is a consequence of external interference. Do we get to judge them on merit, or is what we see or don't see a result of interference and constraints?

Should we expect anything to change under Sayers, or is it just more of the same?
Hard for us to comment on how good or bad someone is as we dont know the inner workings and only go by speculation and innuendo or whether the person is some we like. What we do know is:
- Our footy dept is being reviewed
- Many argue that it has underperformed
- Lloyd is the head of football
- Lloyd was seen meeting with Paul Licuria recently about the vacant List Managers role
Next week should be a fun week...not! Its awful as we are dealing with peoples livelihoods but every one who enters the footy caper knows that its a W-L business and your going to get fired one day irrespective of if you are 4 from 43 or have 4 premierships.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 19, 2021, 08:54:29 am
GTC how long has Lloyd been in the job ?
12 months, 18 ?

Apart from having a tosser for a brother I’m not sure if he is/should be in the gun…?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 19, 2021, 09:30:29 am
GTC how long has Lloyd been in the job ?
12 months, 18 ?

Apart from having a tosser for a brother I’m not sure if he is/should be in the gun…?
Again, I don't know if he is good or bad at the FM job. I personally don't like him because he is a Lloyd but thats silly and irrelevant. The fact that he was seen speaking to Licuria suggests to me he has probably been told he will be moved on from the FM position. By default, that would mean the Footy Dept has been evaluated as poor and him being the head of it means he has failed. Again, I have no idea whether he has not, I am trying to put the pieces together based on what we think we know. At the end of the day, I am sad that we are here again, I hope (again) they get it right this time.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LoveNavy on August 19, 2021, 09:30:52 am
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-19/afl-collingwood-carlton-ross-lyon-david-teague/100389292

Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 09:36:54 am
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-19/afl-collingwood-carlton-ross-lyon-david-teague/100389292

Lyon also said he had rebuffed an approach from Collingwood about that club's head coaching vacancy

"Graham reached out to a friend to get my number ... I said respectfully I wouldn't entertain that for a variety of reasons," he said.

"Ultimately I think successful clubs … have got alignment of where they're at and where they're going, and if you see misalignment it's a red flag."

[/b]

Rossco, old son, you're losing it man. Carlton is the faction capital of the world.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LoveNavy on August 19, 2021, 09:45:37 am
Yep. Nothing there suggests Ross knows anything about Carlton. Although that seems unlikely given his long association with SOS.
Go figure.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 19, 2021, 09:47:45 am
Lyon also said he had rebuffed an approach from Collingwood about that club's head coaching vacancy

"Graham reached out to a friend to get my number ... I said respectfully I wouldn't entertain that for a variety of reasons," he said.

"Ultimately I think successful clubs … have got alignment of where they're at and where they're going, and if you see misalignment it's a red flag."

[/b]

Rossco, old son, you're losing it man. Carlton is the faction capital of the world.
Ross has been at the club. He knows how it runs. Maybe he already has his factions sorted?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 19, 2021, 09:54:12 am
Ross has been at the club. He knows how it runs. Maybe he already has his factions sorted?

The club recently sacked one of his allies, and a close one at that.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LoveNavy on August 19, 2021, 09:54:42 am
Ross has been at the club. He knows how it runs. Maybe he already has his factions sorted?

Maybe if this eventuates, he's thinking of starting a new faction😉
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 19, 2021, 09:55:47 am
Maybe if this eventuates, he's thinking of starting a new faction😉

The People’s Front of Judaea ?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 19, 2021, 09:58:52 am
The People’s Front of Judaea ?
F*** off!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 19, 2021, 10:00:21 am
Lloyd is part of the Liddle trinity with Agresta.The old boys school posse that ran SOS out of town and brought office boy Austin in. Rather we have a non Liddle buddy running the footy dept and imo Lloyd was nothing brilliant at Freo so no great loss if he goes. Don't like boys clubs in any business and it's been another mistake that needs rectifying..
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 19, 2021, 10:02:36 am
Lloyd is part of the Liddle trinity with Agresta.The old boys school posse that ran SOS out of town and brought office boy Austin in. Rather we have a non Liddle buddy running the footy dept and imo Lloyd was nothing brilliant at Freo so no great loss if he goes. Don't like boys clubs in any business and it's been another mistake that needs rectifying..


Problem is one mans boys club is another’s hard working team
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 19, 2021, 10:08:54 am
Problem is one mans boys club is another’s hard working team
They did work hard at running SOS out of Ikon Park. The CEO and Ross Lyon would make for an interesting relationship..
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LoveNavy on August 19, 2021, 10:10:17 am
Whatever happens, they must sort out the schoolyard antics and start functioning like a professional sporting organization. An organization that has 80k passionate members. Give or take 10k pets.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 19, 2021, 10:32:23 am
What we do know is:
- Our footy dept is being reviewed
Didn't they announced a review of the whole club, but it doesn't seem to be playing out that way!

For me it's a Clayton's Review, they had an objective, they wanted a very specific outcome, and they made sure that is what it delivers!

I'm wondering if this review was any more than just an audition for Geoff Walsh, while at the same time offering some cover for Sayer's preferred list of changes?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 19, 2021, 11:35:19 am
Didn't they announced a review of the whole club, but it doesn't seem to be playing out that way!

For me it's a Clayton's Review, they had an objective, they wanted a very specific outcome, and they made sure that is what it delivers!

I'm wondering if this review was any more than just an audition for Geoff Walsh, while at the same time offering some cover for Sayer's preferred list of changes?
For me, for once the club was clear in that it was stated to be a review of the whole footy dept. That is, everyone from Judd down to the boot studder.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 19, 2021, 11:36:37 am
Didn't they announced a review of the whole club, but it doesn't seem to be playing out that way!

For me it's a Clayton's Review, they had an objective, they wanted a very specific outcome, and they made sure that is what it delivers!

I'm wondering if this review was any more than just an audition for Geoff Walsh, while at the same time offering some cover for Sayer's preferred list of changes?
Its been denied that Walsh is being courted for any football admin role......however I remain skeptical given how quickly people change their minds in the world of AFL.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 19, 2021, 11:39:43 am
Its been denied that Walsh is being courted for any football admin role......however I remain skeptical given how quickly people change their minds in the world of AFL.

It would appear slightly unethical to be employed to review an organisation and thus find that the best way forward is to employ yourself full time...

But thats just me.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 11:47:35 am
https://www.afl.com.au/news/666643/unless-ross-knows-something-then-i-plan-to-coach-next-year-teague

Well worth a read, but it's a little depressing tbh.

Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 19, 2021, 12:01:01 pm
https://www.afl.com.au/news/666643/unless-ross-knows-something-then-i-plan-to-coach-next-year-teague

Well worth a read, but it's a little depressing tbh.


Abit mischievous by Beveridge IMO.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Milhanna13 on August 19, 2021, 12:04:21 pm
https://www.afl.com.au/news/666643/unless-ross-knows-something-then-i-plan-to-coach-next-year-teague

Well worth a read, but it's a little depressing tbh.



Bit mischievous in the wordings from the journo - saying the review findings had been presented to the board.  Haven’t the board come out and said the review isn’t finished.   Yeah, they prob should keep Teague updated, but the article makes it sound like they have the results and they are keeping them from Teague
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Milhanna13 on August 19, 2021, 12:05:13 pm
Abit mischievous by Beveridge IMO.

Ha! Hadn’t read ur response when I typed mine.  Great minds!!!!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 12:07:48 pm
Abit mischievous by Beveridge IMO.

Maybe, but I think Lyon is acting unethically, saying that he has "famous" Carlton people in his corner, and then talking about how Clarkson is the red hot favourite.  And the reason why the club hasn't backed Teague publicly is obvious. It's been a pretty grubby process, and all concerned should hang their heads in shame. There's no honour among thieves or senior coaches, it seems.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 19, 2021, 12:08:48 pm
Bit mischievous in the wordings from the journo - saying the review findings had been presented to the board.  Haven’t the board come out and said the review isn’t finished.   Yeah, they prob should keep Teague updated, but the article makes it sound like they have the results and they are keeping them from Teague
Agree Mil, Ill also add that Teagues comments come across as a bit naive if I'm honest. They said they wouldnt be providing running commentry and they havent. So how can he expect them to come out and say things about it? Also, he would have known, being an insider, the review was ongoing and not complete. How could he expect them to go up to him and say "you'll be right mate" when the review wasnt complete. Perhaps its me thats naive.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Milhanna13 on August 19, 2021, 12:09:32 pm
Conflicting reports, dated 13th August :

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/football-expertise-on-blues-board-queried-as-they-assess-review-20210813-p58ilj.html

Carlton great Chris Judd is set to officially step down from the board at the end of the season along with outgoing president Mark LoGiudice after making his intention to depart the club clear in May, a month before the independent review was called.

Judd did not attend Thursday night’s board meeting where the review was presented and has not been involved since the club commissioned respected football judges Geoff Walsh, Matthew Pavlich and Graham Lowe to conduct the review.


Doesn’t this raise another question??  Judd announced he intended to step down at the end of the season.  Yet he didn’t attend last week’s board meeting.   He hasn’t officially left yet, why is he not at board meetings?  Especially as the footy director, when a reasonably important footy matter is being discussed??

Something is a bit odd with his departure- was he pushed?  Did he not agree with undertaking the review? Does he not like sayers?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 12:11:50 pm
Doesn’t this raise another question??  Judd announced he intended to step down at the end of the season.  Yet he didn’t attend last week’s board meeting.   He hasn’t officially left yet, why is he not at board meetings?  Especially as the footy director, when a reasonably important footy matter is being discussed??

Something is a bit odd with his departure- was he pushed?  Did he not agree with undertaking the review? Does he not like sayers?

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say he's either fed up of being ignored / overruled, or fed up with the club's flip flopping and embarrassing lack of professionalism.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 19, 2021, 12:12:54 pm
Maybe, but I think Lyon is acting unethically, saying that he has "famous" Carlton people in his corner, and then talking about how Clarkson is the red hot favourite.  And the reason why the club hasn't backed Teague publicly is obvious. It's been a pretty grubby process, and all concerned should hang their heads in shame. There's no honour among thieves or senior coaches, it seems.
Pauly it was put to him by Caro and Ed that he had famous people in his corner (like Big Nic and his tough bastard comments) and he replied something like "yeah I saw that".  He wasnt the one putting foward he had influential backing. The difference between AFL360's approach with Clarkson and FC with Ross was polar opposite. Clarko made it clear to them questions about his future and Carlton where off limits. FC went balls and all and in hindsight, Ross should have said the same to FC, no questions about Carlton. If Im not mistaken, Matty Lloyd is normally on a Wed night but he was absent. I wonder why.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 19, 2021, 12:13:58 pm
Doesn’t this raise another question??  Judd announced he intended to step down at the end of the season.  Yet he didn’t attend last week’s board meeting.   He hasn’t officially left yet, why is he not at board meetings?  Especially as the footy director, when a reasonably important footy matter is being discussed??

Something is a bit odd with his departure- was he pushed?  Did he not agree with undertaking the review? Does he not like sayers?
Some are suggesting that Juddy not being at last weeks BM was incorrect and that he was there.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 12:14:31 pm
Pauly it was put to him by Caro and Ed that he had famous people in his corner (like Big Nic and his tough bastard comments) and he replied something like "yeah I saw that".  He wasn't the one putting forward he had influential backing. The difference between AFL360's approach with Clarkson and FC with Ross was polar opposite. Clarko made it clear to them questions about his future and Carlton were off limits. FC went balls and all and in hindsight, Ross should have said the same to FC, no questions about Carlton.

That's it in a nutshell. Just grubby behaviour on his part.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 19, 2021, 12:16:46 pm
That's it in a nutshell. Just grubby behaviour on his part.

Probably, he tried to handle it but it was always going to fail and come across poorly.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: capcom on August 19, 2021, 12:20:44 pm
Endless rigmorale and uncertainty.  At perhaps one of the lowest points in our history. 

Demoralising.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 19, 2021, 12:24:33 pm
https://www.afl.com.au/news/666643/unless-ross-knows-something-then-i-plan-to-coach-next-year-teague

Well worth a read, but it's a little depressing tbh.



Grubby by Lyon, Grubby of the club to NOT support Teague until the review is handed in.
Bastards have white anted him from the get go.

I fully understand the non commentary bit, but they could have quite easily come out and hosed down some of the gossip... unless its true of course...
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Professer E on August 19, 2021, 12:28:37 pm
This entire saga has been a cluster####, from the board downwards. Too much meddling.   Too many factions.   Too many agendas and pathetic little games.    This club is a joke.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 19, 2021, 12:35:41 pm
Endless rigmorale and uncertainty.  At perhaps one of the lowest points in our history. 

Demoralising.
I'll respectfully disagree CC. In the past, we have been terrible in all aspects of the club. To me, today the status of the three main pillars of the club are:
Off field finances - Tick
List Management and Talent - Tick
Football Department - Jury is yet to deliver the verdict.
If we can line up all three above with ticks, we'll be off and running. IF!
Many will probably say the board is a pillar, I think the board builds the pillars and so to my way of thinking, they have seen 2 pillars built to a satisfactory level (always room for improve sure), the most important one for me is the one they are look at now.
I have been super critical of the board, I still am mainly due to the outside influencers. I do want to see what direction they take at this fork in the road. For Sayers, he'll either be a hero or it will be over before it began.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 12:38:48 pm
Grubby by Lyon, Grubby of the club to NOT support Teague until the review is handed in.
Bastards have white anted him from the get go.

I fully understand the non commentary bit, but they could have quite easily come out and hosed down some of the gossip... unless its true of course...

Unfortunately, I think the answer is right there.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 12:41:46 pm
I hope I live long enough to see this kind coach "skirt chasing" expunged from the club forever. There's always a better one around the corner...........
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 19, 2021, 12:43:23 pm
Unfortunately, I think the answer is right there.


So Mr Sayers, put your big girls blouse on and pull the trigger already, put the guy out of his misery.
But no, we dont want blood on our hands do we ?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: capcom on August 19, 2021, 12:50:16 pm
I'll respectfully disagree CC. In the past, we have been terrible in all aspects of the club.

No issues @Gointocarlton ... but I was homing in just this aspect of woeful management. :)

Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 19, 2021, 12:51:04 pm
I'll respectfully disagree CC. In the past, we have been terrible in all aspects of the club. To me, today the status of the three main pillars of the club are:
Off field finances - Tick
List Management and Talent - Tick
Football Department - Jury is yet to deliver the verdict.
If we can line up all three above with ticks, we'll be off and running. IF!
Many will probably say the board is a pillar, I think the board builds the pillars and so to my way of thinking, they have seen 2 pillars built to a satisfactory level (always room for improve sure), the most important one for me is the one they are look at now.
I have been super critical of the board, I still am mainly due to the outside influencers. I do want to see what direction they take at this fork in the road. For Sayers, he'll either be a hero or it will be over before it began.
Think the jury is out on list management and talent...but agree on off field finances.
I think the recruiting area will come under heavy scrutiny via the review and I can see changes being made. I also think a coach like Lyon will want a few more of his type of player who have a bit more spice to their game.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 01:03:57 pm
So Mr Sayers, put your big girls blouse on and pull the trigger already, put the guy out of his misery.
But no, we dont want blood on our hands do we ?

Yep, if he waits long enough he can just say he is following through on the recommendations contained in the review. Someone with a better memory please correct me, but I don't remember the Tigers, Pies, or Cats reviews being as messy as this. Certainly with the Tigers, there was talk about sacking Hardwick, but I don't recall the fever pitch intensity that seems to follow Carlton around like a bad smell. These sorts of events at Carlton always feel distinctly Machiavellian. 
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: WASurfer on August 19, 2021, 01:09:43 pm
Northern.....if the decision has been made to part ways with Teague, I don't think it was ever gonna be done this week once Eddie announced his retirement. He didn't deserve the focus to be taken off his magnificent career ending in the same week as the coach was axed.

Once it's all been revealed, will members & supporters find out what was in the review?

My gut feel for months has been Ross Lyon will get the gig and nothing has changed....but more than happy to be proven wrong if the Board decide to stick tough and back Teague in.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 19, 2021, 01:14:37 pm
Northern.....if the decision has been made to part ways with Teague, I don't think it was ever gonna be done this week once Eddie announced his retirement. He didn't deserve the focus to be taken off his magnificent career ending in the same week as the coach was axed.

Once it's all been revealed, will members & supporters find out what was in the review?

My gut feel for months has been Ross Lyon will get the gig and nothing has changed....but more than happy to be proven wrong if the Board decide to stick tough and back Teague in.

But they didnt offer Eddie a contract... so they have been driving this runaway tram.
They COULD have come out and announced the review (if they needed to) and stated (at any time) that Teague would coach the year out, but nah, death by a thousand cuts.

Its messy, its ugly its on their hands.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 19, 2021, 01:17:19 pm
https://www.afl.com.au/news/666643/unless-ross-knows-something-then-i-plan-to-coach-next-year-teague

Well worth a read, but it's a little depressing tbh.



I'd be interested in knowing who is advising The TT. If anyone is.

Digs at the club re an environment that is not as psychologically safe as it could be, feeling unsupported by the club... and so on, is so very unwise although quite possibly true (that he feels this way) - these are things for behind closed doors, it's like he's attempting to solicit sympathy. Should he have to leave the club, what does this kind of public communication tell any future employer? It won't help. Almost sounds like he's been given advise by MM! Being a senior coach of an AFL club is no easy gig.

Leadership in professional sport is tough. Real tough, requiring very unique personality types. And those who succeed are not afraid to stand alone - they back themselves/are exceedingly self-reliant, are driven/passionate, ruthless and incredibly competitive. They don't rely on others around them to give them what they need, they create and build the environment they want, even demand - themselves.

If The TT is to depart the club then he should look at how others have handled such difficult situations. At our club, Den Den, Ratts and BB all left with class and dignity - publicly. MM, not so much.

Big change is never an easy transition and nailing the perfect formula is really difficult. It often comes down to your own strength, integrity and resilience... and a strong understanding that life aint fair, it is difficult. Realising that is more than half the battle.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 01:18:17 pm
But they didnt offer Eddie a contract... so they have been driving this runaway tram.
They COULD have come out and announced the review (if they needed to) and stated (at any time) that Teague would coach the year out, but nah, death by a thousand cuts.

Its messy, its ugly its on their hands.

Yep, his sacking just has an air of inevitability. And his recent comments about the club offering no public support (and probably nothing in private either) are exactly what Malthouse said about his final period. And such comments won't endear him to the powers that be, even if they are correct.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: tonyo on August 19, 2021, 01:19:43 pm
Yep, if he waits long enough he can just say he is following through on the recommendations contained in the review. Someone with a better memory please correct me, but I don't remember the Tigers, Pies, or Cats reviews being as messy as this. Certainly with the Tigers, there was talk about sacking Hardwick, but I don't recall the fever pitch intensity that seems to follow Carlton around like a bad smell. These sorts of events at Carlton always feel distinctly Machiavellian. 

This was always going to happen when the review was conducted half-way through the year, and the side's performance started going south.  It was also exacerbated by the 'planned' Presidential handover.  If the team had clicked and made the 8, the actions taken in response to the review would probably be quite different.

The media love a blood-letting story (in fact, they generally supply the knives) - especially the anti-Carlton crew like Jon Ralph, Flubbo and co at the HUN.  They lost out on Collingwood and Hawthorn stories because the respective coaches jumped not long after they felt a hand in the back.  Otherwise, it could have been a lot messier than us, especially Collingwood.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 01:30:18 pm
I'd be interested in knowing who is advising The TT. If anyone is.

Digs at the club re an environment that is not as psychologically safe as it could be, feeling unsupported by the club... and so on, is so very unwise although quite possibly true (that he feels this way) - these are things for behind closed doors, it's like he's attempting to solicit sympathy. Should he have to leave the club, what does this kind of public communication tell any future employer? It won't help. Almost sounds like he's been given advise by MM! Being a senior coach of an AFL club is no easy gig.

Leadership in professional sport is tough. Real tough, requiring very unique personality types. And those who succeed are not afraid to stand alone - they back themselves/are exceedingly self-reliant, are driven/passionate, ruthless and incredibly competitive. They don't rely on others around them to give them what they need, they create and build the environment they want, even demand - themselves.

If The TT is to depart the club then he should look at how others have handled such difficult situations. At our club, Den Den, Ratts and BB all left with class and dignity - publicly. MM, not so much.

Big change is never an easy transition and nailing the perfect formula is really difficult. It often comes down to your own strength, integrity and resilience... and a strong understanding that life aint fair, it is difficult. Realising that is more than half the battle.

It won't do him any favours, but I applaud him for speaking out. And speaking, what in my opinion, is the truth.

I think there is a difference between being an independent thinker, self reliant, backing yourself on the one hand, and on the other, having forces and individuals within your own organisation who not only fail to offer support, but quite possibly also proactively trying to undermine you. A football club has hundreds of moving parts. One person won't make a difference if the whole club isn't on the same page. I can't think of one single coach since Brittain, who would not have left frustrated and annoyed at being hamstrung by some aspect of the inner workings of our club.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 19, 2021, 01:40:06 pm
It won't do him any favours, but I applaud him for speaking out. And speaking, what in my opinion, is the truth.

I think there is a difference between being an independent thinker, self reliant, backing yourself on the one hand, and on the other, having forces and individuals within your own organisation who not only fail to offer support, but quite possibly also proactively trying to undermine you. A football club has hundreds of moving parts. One person won't make a difference if the whole club isn't on the same page. I can't think of one single coach since Brittain, who would not have left frustrated and annoyed at being hamstrung by some aspect of the inner workings of our club.

Couldn't agree more. Although not a fan of the word 'if'... if The TT had taken the opportunity to get better people around him in terms of assistants he may well not be where he is today.

With the inconsistent management and leadership at the club for some time you sure will get 'inner conflict' and problems created where they don't need to be simply because of a lack of unity. Hopefully that is about to change.

I just watched The TT pre game media conference and the very first thing I thought after a few minutes was, 'FFS, David, don't get drawn into the leading questions from salivating headline hunters.' Once they realised his naive honesty, they were like hyenas. He's got to learn to get them dancing to his tune, not he, theirs.

You can see, easily, that he's first and foremost a really nice person. With a likeable softness. If he does leave I hope he gets a gig at another club as an assistant. He pumps up Lloyd's tyres... maybe he'll end up at Rottingwood.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 19, 2021, 02:30:56 pm
I just watched The TT pre game media conference and the very first thing I thought after a few minutes was, 'FFS, David, don't get drawn into the leading questions from salivating headline hunters.' Once they realised his naive honesty, they were like hyenas. He's got to learn to get them dancing to his tune, not he, theirs.
Been saying it for years, it's an aspect of our club that remains in the rank amateur category.

Our fans keep wondering why Handbaggers or Ferals get off at the MRP, they think they are lucky, or they think our blokes are guilty and theirs aren't!

It's absolutely nothing to do with any of that, it's a cause and effect driven by our media presence.

The first thing I would do if I was Teague would be to make journalists and bloggers accountable for their questions. That is when they raise a hand, tell them to announce their name and organisation before they pose the questions, you'll find the replacing any partially perceived anonymity with accountability and responsibility changes the very questions raised in the debate! Usually, the old heads in the game, the likes of Flubbo, Hunchy or Caro, will then force some poor cadet spud or work experience kid to pose the dumb questions, which then just let's someone like Teague control the debate. It's media 101, and our club seems to be ignorant of it!

btw., It doesn't have to be done in a combative way, Teague can illiterate that in the absence of vision fans may not be familiar with voices, or a Teague type can even claim it is "to help me remember names"!

None of it matters, if the Board and Exec do no0t support the staff in the media, and there is the problem because our Board and Exec are ethereal, they are crickets chirping or rabbits in headlights!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Adelaideblue on August 19, 2021, 02:43:39 pm
Retain David Teague.

It is probable human nature to want to be on the side of the winners. Even if such a win is merely enjoying joining the mob to pitchfork yet another Carlton coach out the door. 
In our rush to accept the "lets change coach again" scenario that appears to be emanating from some Board members and being gleefully cultivated by the media, are we being fair to and are we giving full value to David Teague as a coach.

I congratulate those CSC members on this site who in showing support for DT continuing  as Carlton coach in 2022 have outlined not only his coaching positives, but importantly the impossible task he has faced this season putting a competitive team on the park due to such an enormous injury list.

I for for one would be happy to sign a petition asking the board to retain David Teague as coach for season 2022.

cheers  Ab
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 19, 2021, 02:58:21 pm
Think the jury is out on list management and talent...but agree on off field finances.
I think the recruiting area will come under heavy scrutiny via the review and I can see changes being made. I also think a coach like Lyon will want a few more of his type of player who have a bit more spice to their game.
Was going to highlight the same thing.

List management has been average. Failing to recruit any backup at KPD was pathetic. Ironically, through all our injuries we've almost survived in that area, just missing Jones for about 3 games (with no backup available at all!)
Ruck stocks....similar. Silvagni being in there highlights this too.
Wasn't really rectified during the MSD either.
I could go on.

I find it funny that those saying injuries are no excuse give the list management a tick. It has basically being responsible for us not being able to field a competitive line-up.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 19, 2021, 03:07:11 pm
I'd be interested in knowing who is advising The TT. If anyone is.

Digs at the club re an environment that is not as psychologically safe as it could be, feeling unsupported by the club... and so on, is so very unwise although quite possibly true (that he feels this way) - these are things for behind closed doors, it's like he's attempting to solicit sympathy. Should he have to leave the club, what does this kind of public communication tell any future employer? It won't help. Almost sounds like he's been given advise by MM! Being a senior coach of an AFL club is no easy gig.

Don't shoot the messenger.
Teague speaks the truth (like malthouse). It's uncomfortable to hear, but it's the truth.

You want Teague to our on a brave face and say 'all is well' so his replacement can come into the job... full of hope and optimism only to be fooled by the '3 idiots' conducting the review and those employing them?

Play time is over.
Teague is upset and a lot in the media are starting to take his side... he has been treated very poorly.

Now one more thing....
Someone made content about Clarko not commenting on the Carlton role, but Ross Lyon doing the opposite.
I've literally heard Ross say all year that he would not comment on a position that is not available....specifically in relation to coaching Carlton. So I'm not sure why he (appears to have) changed his mind on the matter other than that position has become available....at least privately. Remember there were rumours last week that the board had decided to sack Teague and was going to announce it....maybe they decided to wait a week?

Would make all the above make sense if true.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 19, 2021, 03:11:48 pm
Was going to highlight the same thing.

List management has been average. Failing to recruit any backup at KPD was pathetic. Ironically, through all our injuries we've almost survived in that area, just missing Jones for about 3 games (with no backup available at all!)
Ruck stocks....similar. Silvagni being in there highlights this too.
Wasn't really rectified during the MSD either.
I could go on.

I find it funny that those saying injuries are no excuse give the list management a tick. It has basically being responsible for us not being able to field a competitive line-up.
Agree with all of that.....the list is unbalanced and lacks cover in KP areas and with a multitude of injuries you get exposed big time.
The mid season draft gave us no cover even though we could have picked another player or two. Mirkov is ultra raw apart from getting injured himself and Boyd is another kid with no senior experience and why pick another tadpole? Teague got left with a paper thin lineup and when Jones got injured it left a hole you could drive a truck through which is what Port did to us.
TDK looks stuffed, Jack was boxing out of his division rucking and our best KP forward in the VFL was Crocker.
Charlie Curnow isnt up to flying for big marks or going too hard and he needs a pre season so no miracles forthcoming from him.
You add playing players with injuries and its been a debacle, what hope has Teague really had when you dont have the resources.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: madbluboy on August 19, 2021, 03:12:03 pm
Clearly Teague has been told.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 19, 2021, 03:37:11 pm
Clearly Teague has been told.

Not so sure, I think its more the malestrom of tea leaves revolving around him like a cyclone and the coast guard not answering the mayday calls, and possibly having turned the radio off !
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 03:46:36 pm
One has to wonder, with this newfound emphasis on (wait for it).............winning games of football, how does this affect the new coach ? It seems clear to me that the club is expecting results instantly, so if it's Lyon, he will want to remake the team in his image, as all coaches do. How long will it take him to take the boys from attack to defence, bigger, stronger bodies, more tackling, more stoppages, etc. ? Can you do that in 1 pre season ? It seems highly likely that there will be a down period while he tinkers to get things on his terms. What if he misses finals next season ?

Surely the quickest way forward is to stick with Teague and iron out the kinks, rather than yet another dramatic change ?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: madbluboy on August 19, 2021, 03:49:18 pm
One has to wonder, with this newfound emphasis on (wait for it).............winning games of football, how does this affect the new coach ? It seems clear to me that the club is expecting results instantly, so if it's Lyon, he will want to remake the team in his image, as all coaches do. How long will it take him to take the boys from attack to defence, bigger, stronger bodies, more tackling, more stoppages, etc. ? Can you do that in 1 pre season ? It seems highly likely that there will be a down period while he tinkers to get things on his terms. What if he misses finals next season ?

Surely the quickest way forward is to stick with Teague and iron out the kinks, rather than yet another dramatic change ?

If Clarko or Lyon come in it will have to be another reset. It won't be as bad as when Mick took over a team on the slide but it will take some time to bring a more defensive style to Carlton.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 19, 2021, 03:52:17 pm
If Clarko or Lyon come in it will have to be another reset. It won't be as bad as when Mick took over a team on the slide but it will take some time to bring a more defensive style to Carlton.

Sounds like another thrilling 43 games coming up !!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 19, 2021, 03:52:46 pm
Don't shoot the messenger. I'm not shooting the messenger, simply suggesting his interests would be better served telling his truth to the people involved, directly and not publicly. It does not serve him to attempt to embarrass his employer publicly... it only satiates the bloodlust of the media and public. Speaking his truth directly to those concerned is far more beneficial.
Teague speaks the truth (like malthouse). It's uncomfortable to hear, but it's the truth. See above! It's no less the truth by speaking it to those directly responsible. MM too often chose to attempt to manipulate public perceptions and his employer with public comments. But he can handle himself with this kind of approach as he's got a few decades of success behind him. Ill-advised for The TT to travel the same road. Although it may be true, it also comes across to some as going the bleat, the whinge... publicly, which any future employer would not gather any confidence from.

You want Teague to our on a brave face and say 'all is well' so his replacement can come into the job... full of hope and optimism only to be fooled by the '3 idiots' conducting the review and those employing them? I don't want him to lie or bung on any false joy - just stick to talking about the team, not behind the scenes stuff... media sucked him in too easily. Declaring the folks doing the independent review as 'idiots' and those around them the same is a pretty unfortunate assumption without knowing much more about these people. If someone disagrees with us it doesn't automatically make them an idiot. They're just doing what they've been employed to do. We'll get to see the summary of their findings soon enough and then get to judge their work more accurately.

Play time is over.
Teague is upset and a lot in the media are starting to take his side... he has been treated very poorly. The media will take the side of anyone along as it's a juicy story/headline/clickbait - a fickle and vulturous creature is the media. Being 'treated very poorly' works both ways. I feel treated poorly, conned and deceived by what The TT and co. declared at the season's commencement after witnessing what we were dishing up early in the season - exactly the same inconsistent cr@p as last year. And if you look back to early posts this year you'll see that I expressed as such. Freddie the blind miner could see the direction of our season after very early rounds. In fact, 'same old, same old' were words used to describe us many, many times by mid season.

Now one more thing....
Someone made content about Clarko not commenting on the Carlton role, but Ross Lyon doing the opposite.
I've literally heard Ross say all year that he would not comment on a position that is not available....specifically in relation to coaching Carlton. So I'm not sure why he (appears to have) changed his mind on the matter other than that position has become available....at least privately. Remember there were rumours last week that the board had decided to sack Teague and was going to announce it....maybe they decided to wait a week? 'Maybe'... 'rumours'... not good foundations to build an argument upon.

Would make all the above make sense if true.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 03:53:24 pm
If Clarko or Lyon come in it will have to be another reset. It won't be as bad as when Mick took over a team on the slide but it will take some time to bring a more defensive style to Carlton.

That's my hunch as well. But I'm not sure the powers that be will tolerate that, which is why I wondered how long it will take for them to sack the next guy.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 19, 2021, 03:59:20 pm
One has to wonder, with this newfound emphasis on (wait for it).............winning games of football, how does this affect the new coach ? It seems clear to me that the club is expecting results instantly, so if it's Lyon, he will want to remake the team in his image, as all coaches do. How long will it take him to take the boys from attack to defence, bigger, stronger bodies, more tackling, more stoppages, etc. ? Can you do that in 1 pre season ? It seems highly likely that there will be a down period while he tinkers to get things on his terms. What if he misses finals next season ?

Surely the quickest way forward is to stick with Teague and iron out the kinks, rather than yet another dramatic change ?
Agree, no quick fix and I think most would expect Lyon to want the best of what he had at Freo and Stkilda, we have the heavy artillery up forward but have a lot of smaller bodies and lack of the physicality he will want to bring to games to employ his game plans. Maybe his plans are outdated but no doubt if he gets the job it will be on the basis to improve the defensive effort from all players and play a stronger more physically demanding game which will mean changing the list and that will take time.
I think he will get a bit more time than Teague has had presuming he is sacked but it all comes down to win loss ratios, but Lyon will be hammered in the media if he goes back to the Freo ultra close checking gameplan with 5 man forward lines and still loses games. Can you still have players like Baker, Crowley and turn games into low scoring slug fests?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 19, 2021, 04:19:37 pm
I'm not shooting the messenger, simply suggesting his interests would be better served telling his truth to the people involved, directly and not publicly. It does not serve him to attempt to embarrass his employer publicly... it only satiates the bloodlust of the media and public. Speaking his truth directly to those concerned is far more beneficial.
His interests would be served....by towing the line?
His interests are not taken into consideration by the club, which is obvious to all, and you want to get on his back for not bending over and taking it? I think he's been remarkably restrained. Look at MM as a precedent to what would be fair.


FWIW, the 'idiots' comment was a vague movie reference that went over your head.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 04:29:21 pm
Lyon's last games at the Dockers was some of the ugliest football I've ever seen. I've heard Matthew Lloyd say he would hate to be a forward playing under Lyon (Harry McKay take note). Plus he's had 2 years out of clubland. A definite risk IMO.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 19, 2021, 04:47:46 pm
But they didnt offer Eddie a contract... so they have been driving this runaway tram.
They COULD have come out and announced the review (if they needed to) and stated (at any time) that Teague would coach the year out, but nah, death by a thousand cuts.

Its messy, its ugly its on their hands.
Mate they did, they asked Liddle (I think) at the start of the review and he said Teague is contracted for 2022 and will coach.
I dont know what else they had to do, he is still coach today and for all we know might very well coach next year. Right now, its rumour, inuendo and media speculation.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 19, 2021, 05:01:03 pm
Mate they did, they asked Liddle (I think) at the start of the review and he said Teague is contracted for 2022 and will coach.
I dont know what else they had to do, he is still coach today and for all we know might very well coach next year. Right now, its rumour, inuendo and media speculation.

Pretty sure it was MLG who came out and said it wasnt a Teague review.
And (without engaging in commentary) anyone could have come out in the past weeks to back Teague in for this season at least ?
NO ONE has, and its damning of our club.

And Instead, the club has allowed blokes to publicly throw their hats into the ring, after the axe has swung, by all means lets invite expressions of interest for the job (and the execution in 40 odd games time...) But while the guy is still under contract for 2022 he should be getting something.

Its just a morbidly slow, painful public execution of a bloke who deserves better by people who should know better.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: tonyo on August 19, 2021, 05:16:59 pm

Its just a morbidly slow, painful public execution of a bloke who deserves better by people who should know better.

Here's a bizarre theory..... after their respective reviews, both Geelong and Richmond re-appointed coaches who looked for all the world like they were dead men walking.  What followed both of these decisions was the most successful era that these two clubs had seen in over 40 years.  Granted other changes were made, but perhaps it was that show of faith in the head man that was the genesis of the kind of team spirit and hunger that led to prolonged success - the kind we so desperately need.  

Maybe, just maybe, after all of this rubbish, the best thing to do would be to re-appoint Teague, give him the other changes that are needed like decent assistants and development teams, and back him in.  And put some serious acid on the players to deliver (I reckon this is what Choco has done at the Demons this year).  I don't think the player buy-in and performance has been given enough scrutiny - after all, they are the ones out there running, tackling and executing.  You can't keep blaming someone else for your own lack of hunger and motivation.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 19, 2021, 05:24:32 pm
TBH @Tonyo, I think the way its been handled just shows that they dont know what theyre doing.

I wonder what Walsh, Pav and the other bloke (lol) think of the shiite pile theyve landed in @ cfc ?
Its going to take some amazing spin for it to look good on their resume...
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 19, 2021, 05:39:08 pm
Here's a bizarre theory..... after their respective reviews, both Geelong and Richmond re-appointed coaches who looked for all the world like they were dead men walking.  What followed both of these decisions was the most successful era that these two clubs had seen in over 40 years.  Granted other changes were made, but perhaps it was that show of faith in the head man that was the genesis of the kind of team spirit and hunger that led to prolonged success - the kind we so desperately need.  

Maybe, just maybe, after all of this rubbish, the best thing to do would be to re-appoint Teague, give him the other changes that are needed like decent assistants and development teams, and back him in.  And put some serious acid on the players to deliver (I reckon this is what Choco has done at the Demons this year).  I don't think the player buy-in and performance has been given enough scrutiny - after all, they are the ones out there running, tackling and executing.  You can't keep blaming someone else for your own lack of hunger and motivation.

Go even further. After Collingwood's 2017 review they kept Buckley and they made the GF and PF the next 2 years.

If the players had remotely some motivation this and last year we'd have played finals. With the attitude of our playing group it was amazing we were in some sort of contention. Just need that, a fit playing list, and a change in that and a tweak in the game plan ( maybe a better attitude might have seen the game plan executed better) and it would be a different side. Better people around him might've helped sort the game plan anyway. Unfortunately the motivation and culture aspect has bugged us for 20 years.

No support, a review creating a sword hanging over everyone for half a season, you get distrust and disunity. Hence you get games like we got 3 of the last 4 games.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 19, 2021, 05:51:47 pm
Here's a bizarre theory..... after their respective reviews, both Geelong and Richmond re-appointed coaches who looked for all the world like they were dead men walking.  What followed both of these decisions was the most successful era that these two clubs had seen in over 40 years.  Granted other changes were made, but perhaps it was that show of faith in the head man that was the genesis of the kind of team spirit and hunger that led to prolonged success - the kind we so desperately need.  

Maybe, just maybe, after all of this rubbish, the best thing to do would be to re-appoint Teague, give him the other changes that are needed like decent assistants and development teams, and back him in.  And put some serious acid on the players to deliver (I reckon this is what Choco has done at the Demons this year).  I don't think the player buy-in and performance has been given enough scrutiny - after all, they are the ones out there running, tackling and executing.  You can't keep blaming someone else for your own lack of hunger and motivation.

Plenty of people have highlighted this point and it all makes perfect sense.......which is why the club won't do the same.

We are Carlton.....
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 19, 2021, 06:28:05 pm
Here's a bizarre theory..... after their respective reviews, both Geelong and Richmond re-appointed coaches who looked for all the world like they were dead men walking.  What followed both of these decisions was the most successful era that these two clubs had seen in over 40 years.  Granted other changes were made, but perhaps it was that show of faith in the head man that was the genesis of the kind of team spirit and hunger that led to prolonged success - the kind we so desperately need.  

Maybe, just maybe, after all of this rubbish, the best thing to do would be to re-appoint Teague, give him the other changes that are needed like decent assistants and development teams, and back him in.  And put some serious acid on the players to deliver (I reckon this is what Choco has done at the Demons this year).  I don't think the player buy-in and performance has been given enough scrutiny - after all, they are the ones out there running, tackling and executing.  You can't keep blaming someone else for your own lack of hunger and motivation.

Goodwin was on the verge of being sacked last year. It was a very close thing.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 19, 2021, 06:52:39 pm
After all of the angst of the last few days if Teaguey is not kept on our club is imo a pack of pr1cks!  Just sayin’.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 19, 2021, 06:56:44 pm
Pretty sure it was MLG who came out and said it wasnt a Teague review.
And (without engaging in commentary) anyone could have come out in the past weeks to back Teague in for this season at least ?
NO ONE has, and its damning of our club.

And Instead, the club has allowed blokes to publicly throw their hats into the ring, after the axe has swung, by all means lets invite expressions of interest for the job (and the execution in 40 odd games time...) But while the guy is still under contract for 2022 he should be getting something.

Its just a morbidly slow, painful public execution of a bloke who deserves better by people who should know better.
I dont want to back the bus over this but to my point, on Ch7 news, they just showed the footage of Liddle I recalled seeing. It was a presser in June at the front of PP at the time the review was announced and he was asked "Will David Teague be the coach in 2022" to which he replied "Yes". I knew it was Liddle not MLG
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 19, 2021, 07:02:46 pm
Here's a bizarre theory..... after their respective reviews, both Geelong and Richmond re-appointed coaches who looked for all the world like they were dead men walking.  What followed both of these decisions was the most successful era that these two clubs had seen in over 40 years.  Granted other changes were made, but perhaps it was that show of faith in the head man that was the genesis of the kind of team spirit and hunger that led to prolonged success - the kind we so desperately need.  

Maybe, just maybe, after all of this rubbish, the best thing to do would be to re-appoint Teague, give him the other changes that are needed like decent assistants and development teams, and back him in.  And put some serious acid on the players to deliver (I reckon this is what Choco has done at the Demons this year).  I don't think the player buy-in and performance has been given enough scrutiny - after all, they are the ones out there running, tackling and executing.  You can't keep blaming someone else for your own lack of hunger and motivation.

I suspect it is way past that possibility now. Too much water under the bridge and with The TT publicly criticising the club and review ,well... not a wise move if you're intending to stay.

Although hesitant to bring this up again, if we cast our minds back to the end of BBs tenure, there was plenty of conversation about the place re The TT sowing seeds of... mmm... let's just say, 'look at me, look at me... I know how to kick winning scores...' Perhaps what goes around, comes around? Then to have the remaining rounds of the season to prove yourself... and, taking the shackles off, change... good sugar hit which is good for a few wins. Then a haphazard due diligence re selection for new coach... and, voila. ;)
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 07:06:18 pm
I dont want to back the bus over this but to my point, on Ch7 news, they just showed the footage of Liddle I recalled seeing. It was a presser in June at the front of PP at the time the review was announced and he was asked "Will David Teague be the coach in 2022" to which he replied "Yes". I knew it was Liddle not MLG

GTC, we all know, at least historically, these statements aren't worth much.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 19, 2021, 07:09:11 pm
I dont want to back the bus over this but to my point, on Ch7 news, they just showed the footage of Liddle I recalled seeing. It was a presser in June at the front of PP at the time the review was announced and he was asked "Will David Teague be the coach in 2022" to which he replied "Yes". I knew it was Liddle not MLG

Thats somewhat good news, and forgive me for doubting you (the bad news for me is that now I doubt myself...)

So why havent they been on the front foot shielding the coaching group/team and trying to preserve the season ?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 19, 2021, 07:10:18 pm
I suspect it is way past that possibility now. Too much water under the bridge and with The TT publicly criticising the club and review ,well... not a wise move if you're intending to stay.

Although hesitant to bring this up again, if we cast our minds back to the end of BBs tenure, there was plenty of conversation about the place re The TT sowing seeds of... mmm... let's just say, 'look at me, look at me... I know how to kick winning scores...' Perhaps what goes around, comes around? Then to have the remaining rounds of the season to prove yourself... and, taking the shackles off, change... good sugar hit which is good for a few wins. Then a haphazard due diligence re selection for new coach... and, voila. ;)
Maybe its just me but I thought Teaguey's comments today were akin to MM's sack me I dare you comments.
However Teaguey is seen as a hero tonight, MM was seen as a grumpy old kent.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 07:12:10 pm
..............................................................

Although hesitant to bring this up again, if we cast our minds back to the end of BBs tenure, there was plenty of conversation about the place re The TT sowing seeds of... mmm... let's just say, 'look at me, look at me... I know how to kick winning scores...' Perhaps what goes around, comes around?.................................................

This has been in the back of my mind as well - I wonder how much support he really gave Bolts ?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 19, 2021, 07:12:53 pm
GTC, we all know, at least historically, these statements aren't worth much.
Say them, dont say them, which is it though?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 19, 2021, 07:15:00 pm
I dont want to back the bus over this but to my point, on Ch7 news, they just showed the footage of Liddle I recalled seeing. It was a presser in June at the front of PP at the time the review was announced and he was asked "Will David Teague be the coach in 2022" to which he replied "Yes". I knew it was Liddle not MLG

Not much else he could say! Anything else would have caused a media storm... a little sooner than the current one!

I have a hunch that should Liddle stay his days of sticking his shnout into footy matters will be numbered. Nothing worse than a new CEO whose authority goes to his head and he starts making decisions in areas where his expertise is very limited. Stick with membership, sponsorship and other revenue streams knackers. Reckon he'd better stay in his lane for a while. Help appoint, if it happens, a new head of footy and senior coach, then let them structure up the footy department... and that includes recruitment!

The head of the footy dept should have a straight line to the Board in terms of direct reports... maybe a broken line to the CEO for some things.




Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 07:16:37 pm
Say them, dont say them, which is it though?

I'm not sure I understand.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 19, 2021, 07:20:21 pm
Thats somewhat good news, and forgive me for doubting you (the bad news for me is that now I doubt myself...)

So why havent they been on the front foot shielding the coaching group/team and trying to preserve the season ?

No mate, no need for forgiving anyone, all good. My points were:
1. The club backed Teague at the start
2. They said no running commentary on the review or individuals, this is the quote from Liddle “The whole football department is part of this review and we look forward to the process. However, we are not going to provide ongoing commentary around individuals." Liddle in The Australian on 26 June 2021
Thats why I found Teague's comments today odd, he seems to be the one thats gone off script. There have been no leaks, its all be a media generated frenzy and I reckon TT dropped the ball today.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 19, 2021, 07:22:01 pm
I'm not sure I understand.
What I meant was the club makes comments, we say the comments are worthless. They dont make the comments, we say they should come out and comment. Damned if you do, Damned if you dont.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 19, 2021, 07:22:15 pm
Maybe its just me but I thought Teaguey's comments today were akin to MM's sack me I dare you comments.
However Teaguey is seen as a hero tonight, MM was seen as a grumpy old kent.

Bingo! I mentioned the same thing, GTC. Though I suggested that he'd perhaps been taking advise from MM! The TT plays the sympathy/woe is me card very well. Not a good tactic.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 07:26:03 pm
I suspect Teague would have been fine with no public comments if they had privately backed him in. According to him, there have been no public comments and he's received nothing in private either.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 07:29:16 pm
What I meant was the club makes comments, we say the comments are worthless. They dont make the comments, we say they should come out and comment. Damned if you do, Damned if you dont.

Fair enough, but I think the "damned if you do" is justified, if you go back and see how many coaches we've backed in, only to be sacked moments later. There seems to be little reason why this statement should be treated any differently IMO. If the public is sceptical about such pronouncements, the Club only has itself to blame.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 19, 2021, 07:31:40 pm
Vacancy: Mug required.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 07:33:17 pm
The dark horse in all this discussion is Buckley. He seems to have disappeared off the radar, which is the first thing that should make one suspicious.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 19, 2021, 07:35:07 pm
No mate, no need for forgiving anyone, all good. My points were:
1. The club backed Teague at the start
2. They said no running commentary on the review or individuals, this is the quote from Liddle “The whole football department is part of this review and we look forward to the process. However, we are not going to provide ongoing commentary around individuals." Liddle in The Australian on 26 June 2021
Thats why I found Teague's comments today odd, he seems to be the one thats gone off script. There have been no leaks, its all be a media generated frenzy and I reckon TT dropped the ball today.


You still feel that way after listening to Lyon pitch for your job last night ?
I would have been pissed at the lack of support too !
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 19, 2021, 07:37:34 pm
You still feel that way after listening to Lyon pitch for your job last night ?
I would have been pissed at the lack of support too !

How about the lack of support The TT gave BB when the chips were down  ;)
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: madbluboy on August 19, 2021, 07:42:47 pm
In fairness the club publically backed Bolton then sacked him 2 weeks later.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 07:47:13 pm
In fairness the club publicly backed Bolton then sacked him 2 weeks later.

Yes, and the club has perhaps been burnt and learned its lesson -say nothing, then sack them at the end of the season.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 19, 2021, 07:51:59 pm
Yes, and the club has perhaps been burnt and learned its lesson -say nothing, then sack them at the end of the season.

Only if thats the "findings" of your review of course...
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 07:54:17 pm
Only if thats the "findings" of your review of course...

Indeed.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 19, 2021, 07:54:34 pm
How about the lack of support The TT gave BB when the chips were down  ;)

Was up to the club to support him.

Teague's been hung out to dry by our Board.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 19, 2021, 08:15:49 pm
You still feel that way after listening to Lyon pitch for your job last night ?
I would have been pissed at the lack of support too !
I explained what I thought about Lyon's and Clarko's contrasting styles last night. Lyon should have said nothing IMO, but he is a paid member of the media now, not a coach. He was asked the question if he'd be interested and he answered truthfully whilst stating he wanted to be respectful to Teague. Carlton cannot control his or anyones comments, in the last few weeks if they had to respond to every media comment about Teague's job security, they'd do little else all day. I guess thats why they said "no running commentary.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 19, 2021, 08:29:25 pm
No running commentary is one thing, but to stand by whilst pickpockets are riffling through the almost deads pockets and checking to see if his boots fit is another...
I guess we just see it different..
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Lods on August 19, 2021, 09:24:51 pm
Who was the last Carlton coach who was treated well and supported by the club at the time of their departure (sacking)?

The surprising thing is that folks are surprised at the treatment.

But the situation the club has now got itself into, is that whatever decision they make, they will alienate a large number of supporters.

Folks are divided on Teague
Folks are divided on a replacement...good luck to a new coach who will already have been judged and others preferred.
Many are angered at the treatment of Teague.

It is a real mess.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Slowhand on August 19, 2021, 09:38:11 pm
TT WILL STAY… Believe me….
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 19, 2021, 09:40:19 pm
TT WILL STAY… Believe me….

You sound pretty confident.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 19, 2021, 09:47:01 pm
The dark horse in all this discussion is Buckley. He seems to have disappeared off the radar, which is the first thing that should make one suspicious.
Agree...Good mate of Geoff Walsh is Buckley so he would know a bit about the Review, Nathan's a bit too busy to coach though and more interested in teasing his ex on the social media scene with pictures of him getting loved up with his new partner.
Reckon Nathan will join the media and do a Ross Lyon for a year or two....we might be able to pick him up when we sack Ross....
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 19, 2021, 09:47:47 pm
TT WILL STAY… Believe me….
Needs more than 12 months or its just going to be a stay of execution...
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 19, 2021, 09:56:22 pm
Agree...Good mate of Geoff Walsh is Buckley so he would know a bit about the Review, Nathan's a bit too busy to coach though and more interested in teasing his ex on the social media scene with pictures of him getting loved up with his new partner.
Reckon Nathan will join the media and do a Ross Lyon for a year or two....we might be able to pick him up when we sack Ross....

Finally cfc moving forward with a plan…
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Micky0 on August 19, 2021, 10:53:41 pm
Agree...Good mate of Geoff Walsh is Buckley so he would know a bit about the Review, Nathan's a bit too busy to coach though and more interested in teasing his ex on the social media scene with pictures of him getting loved up with his new partner.
Reckon Nathan will join the media and do a Ross Lyon for a year or two....we might be able to pick him up when we sack Ross....

😂
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: spf on August 19, 2021, 11:00:53 pm
TT WILL STAY… Believe me….

Why should we believe you? Do you have something to offer or is it your feeling?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 20, 2021, 08:57:05 am
Who was the last Carlton coach who was treated well and supported by the club at the time of their departure (sacking)?

The surprising thing is that folks are surprised at the treatment.

But the situation the club has now got itself into, is that whatever decision they make, they will alienate a large number of supporters.

Folks are divided on Teague
Folks are divided on a replacement...good luck to a new coach who will already have been judged and others preferred.
Many are angered at the treatment of Teague.

It is a real mess.


Not many sackings (if it comes to pass) occur with everyone on the same page, with everyone joyful and celebrating.

I know we're focussed on our situation... but glance across town to Waverley Park. The treatment of Clarko by the Dawks renders one speechless. If they can't find a way of dispensing with their senior coach, who has delivered big time, continues to deliver and is probably the most highly regarded present day coach... then what hope has a 2 1/2 yr coach, not delivering, got!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 20, 2021, 09:02:32 am
.. then what hope has a 2 1/2 yr coach, not delivering, got!
Sorry @Baggers I think the "Not Delivering" part is subjective rubbish, born out of impatience.

Our team is clearly playing different and better football than it was just 12 months ago. We spent decades hardly looking like we could kick a ton, now we play games in which we are 3/4 of the way to a ton in just a 1/2 of football, and it is practice that will bring the ultimate results not burning the house down again!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 20, 2021, 09:14:17 am
I think if you check out the W/L of Clarkson and Hardwick after 50 games, there is a good comparison to start the conversation. They didn't look like premiership coaches at that stage of their careers either. Sheesh, doesn't Teague at least deserve a chance to prove himself, with genuine unity and support behind him ?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 20, 2021, 09:16:27 am
I think if you check out the W/L of Clarkson and Hardwick after 50 games, there is a good comparison to start the conversation. They didn't look like premiership coaches at that stage of their careers either. Sheesh, doesn't Teague at least deserve a chance to prove himself, with genuine unity and support behind him ?
Personally, the more I read the less I think the debate is about Teague, there is a trend appearing in the media and in the various commentary that to me suggests this is more about SOS vs Liddle with Teague as the collateral damage.

Maybe Teague picked a side when the whole historical issue was breaking, and it wasn't the side SOS is coming from! ;)
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 20, 2021, 09:21:30 am
Sorry @Baggers I think the "Not Delivering" part is subjective rubbish, born out of impatience.

Our team is clearly playing different and better football than it was just 12 months ago. We spent decades hardly looking like we could kick a ton, now we play games in which we are 3/4 of the way to a ton in just a 1/2 of football, and it is practice that will bring the ultimate results not burning the house down again!

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.  Rubbish? An unusually emotive word from you.

When you state, publicly, your expected achievements for the upcoming season and fall well short of those expectations -- for whatever reason -- then you've failed to deliver. When the side you are coaching persistently and consistently folds under serious pressure from any opponent, you've failed. When you fail to respect the defensive side of the game, and your opponent, what hope have the lads under your guidance, got?

If your financial advisor had you invest your hard-earned on investment that failed to deliver, then rolled out seemingly very reasonable excuses, would you give said advisor more time? Especially considering a number of other financial advisors across town had successfully navigated the 'very reasonable excuses'.

Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Lods on August 20, 2021, 09:23:59 am
We look at things like injuries, the improvement in some players, no major blowouts (prior to last week, and given the state of the lineup it was a result many predicted prior to the match). We think to ourselves

'This is all pretty much expected so why the pressure on the coach and others?"

But we look at things from a distance.
We're not sitting there in the team meetings, or mixing with the playing group.
We don't know who is mates with who.
Who belongs to which clique?
Who thinks they're not being rewarded with game time?
Who is driving the show?
We have leaders, do we also have white-ants?

So the question is...
If we can see a logical reason for our position why is there a concern that there are major issues in the football department.
Why do those who have obviously conversed more often with the players feel that a review at a very inconvenient time for coach and players is necessary.

Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 20, 2021, 09:25:23 am
When you state, publicly, your expected achievements for the upcoming season and fall well short of those expectations -- for whatever reason -- then you've failed to deliver.
@Baggers‍ So you want a coach who says "We won't target the finals" at the start of each season, to ensure he can retain his tenure?

Didn't Ratten die by the same method, Ratten stated his aim and expectation was to play finals and was widely derided by the media. Groundhog Day?

FWIW, I do not recall Teague making such a definitive claim other than stating every teams aim is to play finals. If I'm wrong point me to the quote and I'm happy to correct my perspective.

I do however recall Liddle making such a claim though, so the coach lives and dies by a 3rd party marketing expectation, is Teague losing his job because Liddle lost his bonus?

On that expectation, many of us at the time disagreed, we thought it was unrealistic, and our expectation was 9th to 12th, here we are at the end of a season devastated by injuries and yet we are only a game or two off that goal!

Personally, I expect every coach to state their aim is to play finals, at the start of every season, regardless of whether we think it is likely or not! It is about having no limits, and not having expectations of failure!

It seems to me many in the AFL media want to conflate building a list with building a team, one happens quite quickly the other takes time and stability. We as a club are basically heading down a path at the moment that will derail the obvious progress already made, team building progress, and we are doing it just because of impatience, I'm not surprised because we've done it before!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 20, 2021, 09:29:52 am
Needs more than 12 months or its just going to be a stay of execution...

Could be a case of "Waiting for Clarko" ?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 20, 2021, 09:54:09 am
@Baggers‍ So you want a coach who says "We won't target the finals" at the start of each season, to ensure he can retain his tenure?

Didn't Ratten die by the same method, Ratten stated his aim and expectation was to play finals and was widely derided by the media. Groundhog Day?

FWIW, I do not recall Teague making such a definitive claim other than stating every teams aim is to play finals. If I'm wrong point me to the quote and I'm happy to correct my perspective.

I do however recall Liddle making such a claim though, so the coach lives and dies by a 3rd party marketing expectation, is Teague losing his job because Liddle lost his bonus?

On that expectation, many of us at the time disagreed, we thought it was unrealistic, and our expectation was 9th to 12th, here we are at the end of a season devastated by injuries and yet we are only a game or two off that goal!

Personally, I expect every coach to state their aim is to play finals, at the start of every season, regardless of whether we think it is likely or not! It is about having no limits, and not having expectations of failure!

It seems to me many in the AFL media want to conflate building a list with building a team, one happens quite quickly the other takes time and stability. We as a club are basically heading down a path at the moment that will derail the obvious progress already made, just because of impatience, and I'm not surprised because we've done it before!

I strongly suspect it is also the manner in which we've fallen short of the stated goal. Along with a game plan that clearly isn't up to it.

We should remember that the independent review was initiated by the now President on the back of internal feedback that we are not privy to. If he was confronted with damning information as to the dysfunction of the football dept., which is highly likely, then he has done the responsible thing - act quickly in assessing the condition of a sick patient, then when the tests return (diagnosis)... we'll assess the recommended treatments. And without knowing the internal feedback and information contained in the independent review we are all simply speculating.

Who knows, maybe the review will come back with a favourable report for The TT but damning of those around him, who he is trying to protect? We just don't know... and will need to wait. The test results are in (diagnosis complete) regarding our sick patient, now to simply wait for the recommended treatment.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 20, 2021, 10:30:23 am
Both the Geelong and Richmond reviews were initiated 6 years after Thompson and Hardwick took charge, not after 2 1/2 disrupted seasons. The Geelong review was initiated in August 2006 (near the end of the season) and included everybody :

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2006-08-17/geelong-announce-internal-review/1240604

It will look into administration, coaching, fitness, medical and sport science, list management, player leadership, recruiting and welfare and development.

That's how you do a review.

I understand the pro review crowd will extol the virtues of being proactive, getting on the front foot, nipping problems in the bud etc., but there is a fine line between proactive and knee jerk, and I'm not convinced our club understands the difference.



Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 20, 2021, 10:38:52 am
Could be a case of "Waiting for Clarko" ?
Good call Cookie, if DT does survive but only gets the 12 months then that story will run all year and put DT under huge stress.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: enz on August 20, 2021, 11:25:42 am
Good call Cookie, if DT does survive but only gets the 12 months then that story will run all year and put DT under huge stress.

Unless we start winning  :o
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: flyboy77 on August 20, 2021, 12:06:36 pm
If Teague was staying, Betts would be playing in '22.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 20, 2021, 12:10:53 pm
Both the Geelong and Richmond reviews were initiated 6 years after Thompson and Hardwick took charge, not after 2 1/2 disrupted seasons. The Geelong review was initiated in August 2006 (near the end of the season) and included everybody :

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2006-08-17/geelong-announce-internal-review/1240604

It will look into administration, coaching, fitness, medical and sport science, list management, player leadership, recruiting and welfare and development.

That's how you do a review.

I understand the pro review crowd will extol the virtues of being proactive, getting on the front foot, nipping problems in the bud etc., but there is a fine line between proactive and knee jerk, and I'm not convinced our club understands the difference.





Brace yourself for a cliche, Pauly. Ready? The proof of the pudding will be in the eating! Phew, glad that's out of the way.

I recall something my late father said to me many decades ago. By the way, I still think of him every day and even chat to him... and how's this for nuts - I carry the urn that held his ashes in the car, someone to chat to whilst driving. Sorry, back to the story.

My father was probably one of the most highly regarded landscape architects/gardeners in Melbourne. A creative genius. As a parent? Well, not his shtick. The gardens he designed and built were major projects for very wealthy people. Not unusual to take a year or more such was the construction. He once got a massive rock flown in from Europe to achieve the effect he wanted - and the client had the loot to accommodate such a requirement. Anyway, as the construction commenced there would be wholesale mess and absolutely no-one could truly envisage the outcome. There may have been a plan, but that's pale next to the, say 800 square metres, of 3 dimensional reality. But he knew what he was doing, what he wanted. One day I commented on the mess of rocks, backhoes, tip truck deliveries, piles of rio and bags of cement and crushed granite and sand and lime and mud and diggers... you get the picture. Neighbours complained that the garden was already really good and didn't need changing. Anyway, after my comment and the comments from neighbours, he said to me one day, "Fools and children should never see things half done."

In no way am I using this story to accuse anyone of foolishness. I took these words as a guidance for me, personally. To respect that processes can be messy and counter-intuitive in respect to envisaged outcome. And I apply those insights in my own work... the folks I work with can seem 'messy' to begin with and sometimes not apparently so but they're still seeking guidance, and the process I take them through can create more mess and even more discomfort, but I trust the process, carried out with trusted tools and a clear vision of the desired outcome. Back to my father - without exception, despite the chaos and mess along the way, my father's garden's would have neighbours and others like me, in awe. Complete transformation and success. So much so his gardens were often featured in magazines and other media, nationally, even internationally.

So, as I watch our club's review process, I choose to trust it, understanding that initial mess sometimes goes with the territory and just cannot be avoided - much to the chagrin of some. And somehow in amongst the mess of the past few years we've managed to erase debt and assemble a pretty darn good list. Now to just get through this final messiness and see what results.

I understand there are, to anticipate a counter argument to what I've just written, plenty of landscape architects who've created mess and ended up with a disappointing result. There are people who work in the same field as me who do untold damage to people. Don't worry, I've met plenty of psychiatrists, psychologists, counsellors, social workers etc., who I wouldn't trust to boil an egg, let alone be let loose on the general public. Conversely, there are absolute saints working in these areas who achieve wonderful, even spectacular results (healing), even after many months of difficulty. My father had to at times clean up the mess created by others, as I've also, all too often, had to do the same in my chosen field.

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. Soon enough we'll know how effective our new chef, Mr Sayers, is.

(Apologies for the shaggy dog story).
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 20, 2021, 12:30:19 pm
Our last 20 years!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 20, 2021, 01:08:43 pm
Baggers, I appreciate the story you're telling, and I appreciate the logic you're following. But I don't think your father's story and the club's stories are comparable. I understand your default position to give people, processes the BOD. But when there are two opposing or competing parties that require the BOD, we have to make a choice. You are choosing to give Sayers the BOD, I'm choosing to give it to Teague. Sayers has been there for 10 years, as part of a group that gives the impression they don't know how set culture and run a football club. Teague has been there for 50 games, battling covid, injuries, media sh1tstorm etc., with a W/L hovering around 40-45%. It's no contest IMO.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 20, 2021, 01:11:44 pm
If Teague was staying, Betts would be playing in '22.

Maybe, but not necessarily imo.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 20, 2021, 01:14:19 pm
If Teague was staying, Betts would be playing in '22.

That's the first thing that crossed my mind when i heard Betts wasn't offered a new contract.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 20, 2021, 01:18:32 pm
Talk of chefs at CFC makes me nervous. Remember “can you smell what the Blues are cookin’?” and how that particular dish turned out?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 20, 2021, 01:25:55 pm
Baggers, I appreciate the story you're telling, and I appreciate the logic you're following. But I don't think your father's story and the club's stories are comparable. I understand your default position to give people, processes the BOD. But when there are two opposing or competing parties that require the BOD, we have to make a choice. You are choosing to give Sayers the BOD, I'm choosing to give it to Teague. Sayers has been there for 10 years, as part of a group that gives the impression they don't know how set culture and run a football club. Teague has been there for 50 games, battling covid, injuries, media sh1tstorm etc., with a W/L hovering around 40-45%. It's no contest IMO.

Absolutely understand your reasoning - and respect it. Maybe we're both right, or wrong.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 20, 2021, 01:29:16 pm
Talk of chefs at CFC makes me nervous. Remember “can you smell what the Blues are cookin’?” and how that particular dish turned out?

 :))  :))  :))  I did think that as I wrote it...  :))  :))

How did that turn out...??? Gordon Ramsay discussing 'what we had cookin' with the administration at the time -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR4F6wgnZ7E
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 20, 2021, 01:32:03 pm
:))  :))  :))  I did think that as I wrote it...  :))  :))

How did that turn out...??? Gordon Ramsay discussing 'what we had cookin' with the administration at the time -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR4F6wgnZ7E

Sorry Baggers, I don’t think I’ll ever forget that cringe worthy slogan we had back then.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 20, 2021, 01:32:10 pm
If Teague was staying, Betts would be playing in '22.

I did find it curious that Edwardo, when interviewed the other day after announcing his retirement and asked what he was doing next, talked of a number of wonderful ventures... but none involved us/assistant coaching.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 20, 2021, 01:34:04 pm
I did find it curious that Edwardo, when interviewed the other day after announcing his retirement and asked what he was doing next, talked of a number of wonderful ventures... but none involved us/assistant coaching.

He said something about mentoring indigenous boys but was not specific.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 20, 2021, 01:36:44 pm
Sorry Baggers, I don’t think I’ll ever forget that cringe worthy slogan we had back then.

Likewise... and that, to use your word, cringe-worthy image of a cauldron bubbling away with the images of other clubs in the stew. To quote Effy, "How embarrassment.' Not to mention rank amateur stuff that served only to humiliate our club. To extend on the food metaphor - rancid stuff.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 20, 2021, 01:37:33 pm
That's the first thing that crossed my mind when i heard Betts wasn't offered a new contract.
x2
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 20, 2021, 01:38:28 pm
He said something about mentoring indigenous boys but was not specific.

Our fingers are crossed, Fluffy One. I'd hate to lose Edwardo - again.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 20, 2021, 01:38:56 pm
Sorry Baggers, I don’t think I’ll ever forget that cringe worthy slogan we had back then.
I think "they know we're coming" was even more cringe worthy.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 20, 2021, 01:40:28 pm
I did find it curious that Edwardo, when interviewed the other day after announcing his retirement and asked what he was doing next, talked of a number of wonderful ventures... but none involved us/assistant coaching.
It sounds like no promises/commitments are being made to anyone wrt coaching staff until the review is complete.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 20, 2021, 01:43:21 pm
This makes for interesting listening/viewing (just the first half)... if you respect this first hand account from Nick R. I confess to valuing his perceptions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvx-Gtf17Fc&t=420s
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 20, 2021, 01:57:45 pm
Talk of chefs at CFC makes me nervous. Remember “can you smell what the Blues are cookin’?” and how that particular dish turned out?
Its been an embarrassing 10-15 years, I had a Blues sticker with" can you smell what the Blues are cooking" on the back of the car and didnt realize some smart Ar$e from work had crossed out the cooking and wrote "smokin" in permanent texta with Go Pies written underneath..

Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 20, 2021, 02:01:34 pm
Its been an embarrassing 10-15 years, I had a Blues sticker with" can you smell what the Blues are cooking" on the back of the car and didnt realize some smart Ar$e from work had crossed out the cooking and wrote "smokin" in permanent texta with Go Pies written underneath..


EB, Footy Club Stickers Rule #1- Do not put them on your car ever under any circumstances (unless you want something untoward to happen to it). A mate of mine bought CFC number plates years ago, put them on, first game, car keyed at the MCG. Took them off and sold them.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: WASurfer on August 20, 2021, 02:05:09 pm
EB.....I've got a Carlton tattoo.....lost count of the times I've been given sh#t about it. But it's there forever so when we DO actually win another flag I only have to get the year added to it.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 20, 2021, 02:11:26 pm
EB, Footy Club Stickers Rule #1- Do not put them on your car ever under any circumstances (unless you want something untoward to happen to it). A mate of mine bought CFC number plates years ago, put them on, first game, car keyed at the MCG. Took them off and sold them.
GTC, I should have known better...never again. :-[
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 20, 2021, 02:13:05 pm
EB.....I've got a Carlton tattoo.....lost count of the times I've been given sh#t about it. But it's there forever so when we DO actually win another flag I only have to get the year added to it.
Surfie, Sadly I think that Carlton Tatt is going to be lonely for a while...
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: WASurfer on August 20, 2021, 02:14:12 pm
I might have to say it's a Claremont logo for the time being.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 20, 2021, 02:22:05 pm
This makes for interesting listening/viewing (just the first half)... if you respect this first hand account from Nick R. I confess to valuing his perceptions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvx-Gtf17Fc&t=420s

It's been noted for a while that Lyon is super loyal to his older, senior players, so perhaps that glowing endorsement should rightfully come with a few qualifications. Marty Sheargold is right - Lyon can come across as smug and sarcastic, and he shouldn't be putting his hand up for a position that isn't even vacant yet, unless as Teague said, Lyon knows something the rest of us don't.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 20, 2021, 02:42:00 pm
It's been noted for a while that Lyon is super loyal to his older, senior players, so perhaps that glowing endorsement should rightfully come with a few qualifications. Marty Sheargold is right - Lyon can come across as smug and sarcastic, and he shouldn't be putting his hand up for a position that isn't even vacant yet, unless as Teague said, Lyon knows something the rest of us don't.

Reckon its the latter, had that smug look for a while...
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 20, 2021, 02:54:05 pm
Reckon its the latter, had that smug look for a while...

He seems to have had it for years IMO. There's just something about that guy that makes my skin crawl a little bit. The exit from St Kilda, shenanigans at Freo with those allegations, putting his hand up for the CFC job with "famous" people in his corner, seeing him at the footy on TV sitting with Stephen Milne. I realise these are not legitimate complaints, but still............

So far as I can tell, Clarko's main fault in this space is a massive temper. But his overall demeanour, presentation and quality of person seems better than Lyon's IMO.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: DJC on August 20, 2021, 03:33:25 pm
Both the Geelong and Richmond reviews were initiated 6 years after Thompson and Hardwick took charge, not after 2 1/2 disrupted seasons. The Geelong review was initiated in August 2006 (near the end of the season) and included everybody :

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2006-08-17/geelong-announce-internal-review/1240604

It will look into administration, coaching, fitness, medical and sport science, list management, player leadership, recruiting and welfare and development.

That's how you do a review.

I understand the pro review crowd will extol the virtues of being proactive, getting on the front foot, nipping problems in the bud etc., but there is a fine line between proactive and knee jerk, and I'm not convinced our club understands the difference.

The thing is that our review is not a review of the coach, it is a review of the football department.  The length of time Teague has been in the job is largely irrelevant as our football department has been underperforming across the board since Brittain was coach.  Of course, some of the issues that led to Pagan's appointment have been addressed and others have evolved as other coaches, list managers, CEOs and footy department heads have attempted ad hoc remedies.

If anything, the review is too little, too late.  It should have been conducted before Bolton's first season at the helm.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 20, 2021, 04:36:42 pm
https://footyology.com.au/hiring-lyon-a-leap-of-faith-even-for-quick-fix-carlton/?fbclid=IwAR3cRhmy7wmoAGTiJ5aVwpqVawSPmQPZ7z1lNQObV7CzeWvK4M5IqXeTimA
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Professer E on August 20, 2021, 06:51:12 pm
Media (Fox)  reporting that Teague has been sacked.  The article lacks any detail and appears to be casting chum in the water.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 20, 2021, 07:50:35 pm
Maybe Teaguey confronted club management?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 20, 2021, 08:02:18 pm
Media (Fox)  reporting that Teague has been sacked.  The article lacks any detail and appears to be casting chum in the water.
Link? Surely not until after the season if it were to happen.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LoveNavy on August 20, 2021, 08:25:21 pm
Link? Surely not until after the season if it were to happen.

Why not?
We are Carlton 🙄
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 20, 2021, 08:37:59 pm
Why not?
We are Carlton 🙄
Oh yeah :-[
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 20, 2021, 09:55:58 pm
Maybe The Richmond Bloke will coach out the last game…?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: crashlander on August 21, 2021, 03:21:10 am
Media (Fox)  reporting that Teague has been sacked.  The article lacks any detail and appears to be casting chum in the water.
The media were can be a bunch of kents sometimes. More likely to follow the blood than a hungry shark.

It is simply not the way things should be done. Sacking a coach is bad enough, but the media feeding frenzy is just too much.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Professer E on August 21, 2021, 08:19:48 am
If I was the club I'd be sending a please explain, attached to a legal letter, and I'd directly call it out at the presser if I was Teague.   That's assuming the club hasn't done the act on the sly already and that Fox know something we haven't been told - yet.    Article also claimed Liddle sounded out for a list role (?) at the pies.

I can't find the article in the feed anymore (I did take a screen shot), maybe it's a deep fake? Whatever,  it's very grubby behaviour from the media.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 21, 2021, 09:14:49 am
If I was the club I'd be sending a please explain, attached to a legal letter, and I'd directly call it out at the presser if I was Teague.   That's assuming the club hasn't done the act on the sly already and that Fox know something we haven't been told - yet.    Article also claimed Liddle sounded out for a list role (?) at the pies.

I can't find the article in the feed anymore (I did take a screen shot), maybe it's a deep fake? Whatever,  it's very grubby behaviour from the media.

Expecting anything less from a Murdoch enterprise is folly, sadly. Nothing more than a phlegm ball in the sore throat of media reporting.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 21, 2021, 09:33:11 am
If I was the club I'd be sending a please explain, attached to a legal letter, and I'd directly call it out at the presser if I was Teague.   That's assuming the club hasn't done the act on the sly already and that Fox know something we haven't been told - yet.    Article also claimed Liddle sounded out for a list role (?) at the pies.

I can't find the article in the feed anymore (I did take a screen shot), maybe it's a deep fake? Whatever,  it's very grubby behaviour from the media.

Lloyd has been linked to the pies in a list manager role, not Liddle.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 21, 2021, 10:03:05 am
Lloyd has been linked to the pies in a list manager role, not Liddle.
The white-ants are going to tear our club apart yet again, scuppering all and any progress we've made, and our pissweak Board and Executive have corned themselves and are powerless to stop it happening without taking some blame, and you just know that won't happen!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Professer E on August 21, 2021, 10:23:53 am
How can this club prosper when every single entity seems hell bent on destroying us, or at the very least making things as difficult as possible.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 21, 2021, 10:30:46 am
The white-ants are going to tear our club apart yet again, scuppering all and any progress we've made, and our pissweak Board and Executive have corned themselves and are powerless to stop it happening without taking some blame, and you just know that won't happen!

The reason why the media and white ants come after us is because we're easy prey, and the reason we're easy prey is because we're divided and factionalised and built like a paper house, guaranteed to fall over with the slightest breeze off Port Phillip Bay.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 21, 2021, 10:33:52 am
You only need to compare Buckley's exit from Collingwood with our handling of Teague's potential sacking. Like an amateur home made incendiary device, that makes a complete mess and misses its target by miles.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 21, 2021, 11:33:37 am
You only need to compare Buckley's exit from Collingwood with our handling of Teague's potential sacking. Like an amateur home made incendiary device, that makes a complete mess and misses its target by miles.
Agree...even with the Pies in a mess on and off the field they did that well and Buckley is a real pro in terms of the media and how he handle the speculation and end result.
Ours has been a slow torture of the coach and a side show for 12 months......no one is ever on the same page at our club, the politics overrides any proper planning and we cant even terminate people properly.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 21, 2021, 11:49:23 am
The review and speculation has weighed everyone down. See by the way we have played 3 of our last 4 weeks. Got to players, supporters, coach. If we had rolled North and GC there was a reasonable chance we'd be playing a elimination type "final" today.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: capcom on August 21, 2021, 11:54:34 am
But we didn't
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 21, 2021, 11:56:55 am
Agree...even with the Pies in a mess on and off the field they did that well and Buckley is a real pro in terms of the media and how he handle the speculation and end result.
Ours has been a slow torture of the coach and a side show for 12 months......no one is ever on the same page at our club, the politics overrides any proper planning and we cant even terminate people properly.

Reflects the arrogance and entitlement of the privileged and out of touch people that dominate our club.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 21, 2021, 12:20:42 pm
We've upgraded some things with Lyon. We had 19 straight kicked against us last week, now we get someone who has 23 straight kicked against him in 2018. Who's 12 of his 17 10 goal losses came in his last 3 years. Will be right at home here....lol.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 21, 2021, 12:21:56 pm
But we didn't

One reason you don't have reviews mid season. Just screws with the whole club. We leant what it can do to a club.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Milhanna13 on August 21, 2021, 12:29:22 pm
We've upgraded some things with Lyon. We had 19 straight kicked against us last week, now we get someone who has 23 straight kicked against him in 2018. Who's 12 of his 17 10 goal losses came in his last 3 years. Will be right at home here....lol.

That’s the dirty secret no one is talking about with Lyon. He did cop a few hidings in his later years.  Even read some articles talking about how you don’t get thrashed under Ross...... ummmm
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 21, 2021, 12:36:00 pm
That’s the dirty secret no one is talking about with Lyon. He did cop a few hidings in his later years.  Even read some articles talking about how you don’t get thrashed under Ross...... ummmm

Unfortunately, I think we head down the same path in a few years. Year 1 might be a honeymoon period, which could take us close, then fall away badly from there, like it did with Malthouse. Until last few week we never got trashed under Teague either.

This is one time I keep the coach and put top people around him and streamline the coach's position. Like they did at Melbourne last year, Like they did at Colling wood in 2017, Richmond in 2016 and Geelong in 2006. Each one of those worked very well. Carlton would never do that though. Teague has no little support, little help and coaching, as the players have playing, with a sword hanging over their head for half a year, then we wonder why it has fallen apart the last 4 weeks. It's why we have been a failure of a club for 20 years. Like his contract only has one more year so worth trying that. If it still doesn't work then so be it.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 21, 2021, 12:40:23 pm
If we don’t fix the ingrained problems at the club it won’t ultimately matter who is the coach, we will still ultimately fail and that coach will be gone, pockets jingling.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 21, 2021, 01:11:20 pm
I still think that speculating on what the independent review might or might not contain is premature. At present too many of us are only seeing things based on our own biases and opinions (moi included).

The independent review may very contain the sweeping changes we know we need to prevent the horrors of the past and their repetition.

There has been way too much focus on The TT, by many, including the media. This review is addressing the entire footy department and its decision making processes... or lack thereof.

Conversely, conversation on how little relying on say a Clarkson or Lyon can achieve is pointless. Each of those cats would bring a team of superior assistants with them... along with, if the review recommends, a far better and more experienced head of footy and footy dept rep on the Board.

The coming week or so will give us far more relevant information to comment on... as changes (presumably) are announced and instituted.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 21, 2021, 01:23:55 pm
If we don’t fix the ingrained problems at the club it won’t ultimately matter who is the coach, we will still ultimately fail and that coach will be gone, pockets jingling.

100% right there. Will make no difference whatsoever.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 21, 2021, 02:00:35 pm
If we don’t fix the ingrained problems at the club it won’t ultimately matter who is the coach, we will still ultimately fail and that coach will be gone, pockets jingling.
Hmmm, not many said that when the previous three coaches were getting in the neck.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 21, 2021, 02:02:04 pm
100% right there. Will make no difference whatsoever.

Prepared to bet your home on that? If you're 100% convinced that the review will make absolutely no difference... then bet your hard earned on it.  ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 21, 2021, 02:11:23 pm
If we don’t fix the ingrained problems at the club it won’t ultimately matter who is the coach, we will still ultimately fail and that coach will be gone, pockets jingling.
Yes, we have become more famous as a pension fund than a football club, the fat jowlers are lining up for their turn at the trough!

Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 21, 2021, 02:30:42 pm
Prepared to bet your home on that? If you're 100% convinced that the review will make absolutely no difference... then bet your hard earned on it.  ;)  ;D

Um, I was replying to changing the coach. Not the poorly timed review.

If the rotten culture and utter lack of motivation of the players isn't fixed it will do nothing. What have you learnt from 6 coaching changes? Nothing?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 21, 2021, 02:37:55 pm
What have you learnt from 6 coaching changes? Nothing?

That major change is needed. Hopefully this is what the review delivers. Still a moving beast.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 21, 2021, 02:53:26 pm
That major change is needed. Hopefully this is what the review delivers. Still a moving beast.

Still going to come down to the players changing the culture and developing the motivation to be successful. Otherwise the long term effect of any review will come to nothing. Review will identify that but will it change much beyond a one season sugar hit.

All other club reviews kept their coach, supported him to the hilt, streamlined his workload and put the very best people around them. in each case they were successful. Unless that one cultural thing can changed though, and it hasn't in 20 years, then not alot will change in the long run.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 21, 2021, 03:56:25 pm
Still going to come down to the players changing the culture and developing the motivation to be successful. Otherwise the long term effect of any review will come to nothing. Review will identify that but will it change much beyond a one season sugar hit.

All other club reviews kept their coach, supported him to the hilt, streamlined his workload and put the very best people around them. in each case they were successful. Unless that one cultural thing can changed though, and it hasn't in 20 years, then not alot will change in the long run.
Except Coll (Buckley) and Adelaide (Pyke).
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 21, 2021, 03:57:59 pm
Except Coll (Buckley) and Adelaide (Pyke).
Did they get dismissed after reviews, or did they resign?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 21, 2021, 04:06:41 pm
Did they get dismissed after reviews, or did they resign?
Pyke was gone and left before, Buckley they told he wasn't getting a contract, thats dismissed in my view. Their review was kept internal. The man we are allegedly chasing also got dismissed, sacked, moved on, whatever you want to call it.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 21, 2021, 04:11:07 pm
Still going to come down to the players changing the culture and developing the motivation to be successful. Otherwise the long term effect of any review will come to nothing. Review will identify that but will it change much beyond a one season sugar hit.

All other club reviews kept their coach, supported him to the hilt, streamlined his workload and put the very best people around them. in each case they were successful. Unless that one cultural thing can changed though, and it hasn't in 20 years, then not alot will change in the long run.

Seems you're blaming the club, players and culture on The TTs predicament. So The TT bears no responsibility? Everyone else's fault?

By the way, plenty of coaches have been given their marching orders after a review... it's just the reviews that most clubs conduct, quite often, don't get the analysis or publicity of ours. No matter what the CFC does... it news and fair game.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 21, 2021, 04:35:42 pm
Seems you're blaming the club, players and culture on The TTs predicament. So The TT bears no responsibility? Everyone else's fault?

By the way, plenty of coaches have been given their marching orders after a review... it's just the reviews that most clubs conduct, quite often, don't get the analysis or publicity of ours. No matter what the CFC does... it news and fair game.

It's been the downfall of 6 coaches. Like who in their right mind hasn't worked that out. What the hell do you think the issue is. You new to football and missed the other 17 years?

Not as if this is only coach that has struggled in 20 years. Actually Teague struggled less than everyone bar Ratten in that time. Did better here than a great in Malthouse, who took over a finals side, not one that took over a side that had won 4 from the last 43. Seeing he's done a bit better and despite players attitude and effort, has had us talking finals late in the year. Hence I believe better support, not reviews mid year putting everyone under extreme pressure, better people around him, streamlining his work would help quite a bit. Only one year of his contract to go so a better option to me. Doesn't work then change. Now we'll go to a bloke who's last 3 years of coaching have between worse. 23 successive goals in a row in 2018l, beating our 19 last week, with 12 of his 17 10 goals losses coming in that time. Like I said, he'll fit just nicely here. Hopefully we'll at least get a honeymoon year as we get with a new coach.

As we learnt after 2012, the grass is not always greener on the other side. Some are forever suckers and think there is but others know better.



Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 21, 2021, 04:38:45 pm
Except Coll (Buckley) and Adelaide (Pyke).

The was a "public" review in 2017 into Collingwood and Buckley after that season. They decided to keep him against all odds and he went on to make the Grand Final and Preliminary Final the next 2 years. He had underachieved severely before than.

https://footyology.com.au/1527-2/

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2017/08/22/pies-internal-review-notes-exposed/

Pyke was obvious given what went on there. Bad error. He'll learn from that as he can coach.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 21, 2021, 04:55:59 pm
Hypothetical, tonight after the game win, lose or draw, the board resigns en masse and are replaced by me, LP, Baggers, Pauly, laj, Krudd, Micky0, Proff, Fly, Thry and Cap (forget the numbers for a minute), what's our first job tomorrow morning?
Go.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 21, 2021, 04:58:46 pm
Hypothetical, tonight after the game win, lose or draw, the board resigns en masse and are replaced by me, LP, Baggers, Pauly, laj, Krudd, Micky0, Proff, Fly, Thry and Cap (forget the numbers for a minute), what's our first job tomorrow morning?
Go.
First job?
Offer Eddie a contract for 1 more year.  ;D

Realistically, go to David Teague and ask him what he needs to win a flag and get it for him. Be that assistants, fitness staff, players....whatever. Everything else is secondary.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 21, 2021, 05:01:42 pm
Hypothetical, tonight after the game win, lose or draw, the board resigns en masse and are replaced by me, LP, Baggers, Pauly, laj, Krudd, Micky0, Proff, Fly, Thry and Cap (forget the numbers for a minute), what's our first job tomorrow morning?
Go.

They have a drink cabinet in the Board Room?...lol.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Lods on August 21, 2021, 05:06:22 pm
Hypothetical, tonight after the game win, lose or draw, the board resigns en masse and are replaced by me, LP, Baggers, Pauly, laj, Krudd, Micky0, Proff, Fly, Thry and Cap (forget the numbers for a minute), what's our first job tomorrow morning?
Go.

Secure the newspapers and television.

Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 21, 2021, 05:13:39 pm
Hypothetical, tonight after the game win, lose or draw, the board resigns en masse and are replaced by me, LP, Baggers, Pauly, laj, Krudd, Micky0, Proff, Fly, Thry and Cap (forget the numbers for a minute), what's our first job tomorrow morning?
Go.

Brace yourselves for the cr@p you’re gonna cop from the remaining members on this site! 👹
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: capcom on August 21, 2021, 05:44:45 pm
Chart a course to turn around the SS Carlton in a calm but very deliberate manner.  Identify what must be done and instruct all that the standards we set for ourselves, we also expect from the playing group.  Professional.  And take the blame when necessary ... always.  Complete buy in is critical.  :)

Set us apart from the rest and respect our rich history
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 21, 2021, 06:28:05 pm
Hypothetical, tonight after the game win, lose or draw, the board resigns en masse and are replaced by me, LP, Baggers, Pauly, laj, Krudd, Micky0, Proff, Fly, Thry and Cap (forget the numbers for a minute), what's our first job tomorrow morning?
Go.

Ring the Pratts and Mathiesons and Elliotts and other equivalents and tell them that their days of meddling and causing factions and instability are over.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LoveNavy on August 21, 2021, 07:14:25 pm
Hypothetical, tonight after the game win, lose or draw, the board resigns en masse and are replaced by me, LP, Baggers, Pauly, laj, Krudd, Micky0, Proff, Fly, Thry and Cap (forget the numbers for a minute), what's our first job tomorrow morning?
Go.

Review the "Review Report".
Bring the panel members in to address any concerns.
Identify any remaining concerns that may have preceded the review, such as the validity of the Terms of Reference.
Bring the ex-board members in to address any concerns.
Provide members with the findings (and by default, the public).
With all cards on the table, make the appropriate decisions in the best intetests of CFC.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 21, 2021, 07:21:26 pm
Hypothetical, tonight after the game win, lose or draw, the board resigns en masse and are replaced by me, LP, Baggers, Pauly, laj, Krudd, Micky0, Proff, Fly, Thry and Cap (forget the numbers for a minute), what's our first job tomorrow morning?
Go.
Make the Pies free at all home games......
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Lods on August 22, 2021, 07:32:59 am
Ring the Pratts and Mathiesons and Elliotts and other equivalents and tell them that their days of meddling and causing factions and instability are over.

Well that board didn't last long. ;D  ;)

Here's the issue (and for a lot of us it's a key ongoing one)
The board don't tell the influencers and meddlers what to do...it's the other way around.

It's easy to say "get rid of the wealthy supporters and families who have controlled and influenced our club for years"
It's much more difficult to act on that wish.
How do you do that?
Is there a willingness in enough numbers to make it happen.?
I'm afraid I can't see it.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 22, 2021, 07:58:20 am
Well that board didn't last long. ;D  ;)

Here's the issue (and for a lot of us it's a key ongoing one)
The board don't tell the influencers and meddlers what to do...it's the other way around.

It's easy to say "get rid of the wealthy supporters and families who have controlled and influenced our club for years"
It's much more difficult to act on that wish.
How do you do that?
Is there a willingness in enough numbers to make it happen.?
I'm afraid I can't see it.

I appreciate all that Lods. But it's a hypothetical posed by GTC, which usually ends up as a wish list more than anything. The amount of effort, networking, support, manoeuvring etc. that would be required to get rid of those types would be significant. You would then spend the rest of your time on guard because those types will surely not take such an ousting lying down. But IMO, there's little point in fixing the footy department if those external power brokers are still calling the shots, and can make or break careers, derail seasons etc., on what appears to me to be a mere whim.

Malthouse told the story that within seconds of getting the Carlton gig, the Mermaid Beach Mathieson called him to offer congratulations. Towards the end of MM's tenure, "MBM" wasn't even returning Mick's calls. Says it all IMO.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Lods on August 22, 2021, 08:03:50 am
I appreciate all that Lods. But it's a hypothetical posed by GTC, which usually ends up as a wish list more than anything. The amount of effort, networking, support, manoeuvring etc. that would be required to get rid of those types would be significant. You would then spend the rest of your time on guard because those types will surely not take such an ousting lying down. But IMO, there's little point in fixing the footy department if those external power brokers are still calling the shots, and can make or break careers, derail seasons etc., on what appears to me to be a mere whim.

Malthouse told the story that within seconds of getting the Carlton gig, the Mermaid Beach Mathieson called him to offer congratulations. Towards the end of MM's tenure, "MBM" wasn't even returning Mick's calls. Says it all IMO.

Hypothetical or not, it is an ongoing issue that many decisions are heavily influenced by the power brokers.

Why would MM be trying to call Mathieson?
Probably because he thought he might be able to overturn some board decision that Mick didn't agree with.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 22, 2021, 08:05:45 am
I stuffed the hypothetical in that I was supposed to say "assume no footy dept review had been done".

Krudd
First job?
Offer Eddie a contract for 1 more year.  ;D

Realistically, go to David Teague and ask him what he needs to win a flag and get it for him. Be that assistants, fitness staff, players....whatever. Everything else is secondary.

laj - They have a drink cabinet in the Board Room?…lol.

Lods Secure the newspapers and television.

Cookie Brace yourselves for the cr@p you’re gonna cop from the remaining members on this site! 👹

Capcom Chart a course to turn around the SS Carlton in a calm but very deliberate manner.  Identify what must be done and instruct all that the standards we set for ourselves, we also expect from the playing group.  Professional.  And take the blame when necessary ... always.  Complete buy in is critical.  :)

Set us apart from the rest and respect our rich history

Pauly Ring the Pratts and Mathiesons and Elliotts and other equivalents and tell them that their days of meddling and causing factions and instability are over.

LoveNavy Review the "Review Report".
Bring the panel members in to address any concerns.
Identify any remaining concerns that may have preceded the review, such as the validity of the Terms of Reference.
Bring the ex-board members in to address any concerns.
Provide members with the findings (and by default, the public).
With all cards on the table, make the appropriate decisions in the best intetests of CFC.

EB Make the Pies free at all home games……

Couple of things:
Pauly - In my view, the factions and influences from the Pratts and Mathiesons are gone because none of their tentacles are on our board. That was the point of the hypothetical of placing us (new, non influenced members) onto the board.

Krudd - Task 1 for you is to give Teague what he wants/needs and assume he is the right man for the job. You've come in cold and you're not even going to ask questions of our footy dept?

LoveNavy - Closest to the pin in my view given the scenerio I presented.

Capcoms is the second job IMO

Assuming a review of the footy dept hadn't been done and given the finances are in check, wouldn't the first thing we would do do is either start or commission a review of the footy dept? The dysfunctional board is gone, that only leaves looking into what the real purpose of the club is, playing games of football.


Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Lods on August 22, 2021, 08:12:38 am
Couple of things:
Pauly - In my view, the factions and influences from the Pratts and Mathiesons are gone because none of their tentacles are on our board. That was the point of the hypothetical of placing us (new, non influenced members) onto the board.

They will make you an offer you can't refuse. ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 22, 2021, 08:16:56 am
Hypothetical or not, it is an ongoing issue that many decisions are heavily influenced by the power brokers.

Why would MM be trying to call Mathieson?
Probably because he thought he might be able to overturn some board decision that Mick didn't agree with.

Yes, no doubt. I'm sure he was trying to call him because he knows exactly who holds the power, and was looking for an explanation or a stay of execution.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 22, 2021, 08:24:09 am
They will make you an offer you can't refuse. ;D  ;D
I'm of Italian heritage, they'll lose that battle should they wish to go down that track ;)
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: capcom on August 22, 2021, 08:52:37 am
Assuming a review of the footy dept hadn't been done and given the finances are in check, wouldn't the first thing we would do do is either start or commission a review of the footy dept?

Without question GTC :)
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 22, 2021, 08:58:28 am
Mandate the return of Carlton arrogance!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 22, 2021, 09:20:45 am
Make the Pies free at all home games......

 :))  :))  :)) EB1 for President!! A man of vision and a laser-like appreciation of priorities.

Then I'd propose to my learned colleagues that we get the absolute best footy person we could find, who satisfied all our identified criteria, and appoint them to the Board.

Then I'd propose to my learned colleagues an external independent review of the CEO and his performance across the spectrum of his clearly identified responsibilities.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 22, 2021, 09:58:19 am
I stuffed the hypothetical in that I was supposed to say "assume no footy dept review had been done".

....

Couple of things:
Krudd - Task 1 for you is to give Teague what he wants/needs and assume he is the right man for the job. You've come in cold and you're not even going to ask questions of our footy dept?

...

Assuming a review of the footy dept hadn't been done and given the finances are in check, wouldn't the first thing we would do do is either start or commission a review of the footy dept? The dysfunctional board is gone, that only leaves looking into what the real purpose of the club is, playing games of football.

See, i was assuming the review had been done.

In any event, i don't assume he is the right man for the job. However, he is the man currently in the job and deserves a red hot crack and proving it. If he was to get sacked, he'd have to be paid out. So we'd be going backward before we even started.
Thats why i'd ask him what he needs. If he gets everything he needs and STILL can't deliver, then its an easy decision that he and everyone else will understand and accept and we move forward unified.

So yes, i'll stand by my comments. Give full support to the coach.

Incidentally, after i said thought i remembered what Pratt said and did when he came in and it was very similar. Tell me what you need and i'll get it for you. There's hope i can become a billionaire yet....
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 22, 2021, 10:27:18 am
Mandate the return of Carlton arrogance!
Thats part  of Capcoms charter, however if you believe the rumours of how our mobs players are perceived by those outside the organisation, its their in some ways already, just got to back it up with wins.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 22, 2021, 10:35:18 am
See, i was assuming the review had been done.

In any event, i don't assume he is the right man for the job. However, he is the man currently in the job and deserves a red hot crack and proving it. If he was to get sacked, he'd have to be paid out. So we'd be going backward before we even started.
Thats why i'd ask him what he needs. If he gets everything he needs and STILL can't deliver, then its an easy decision that he and everyone else will understand and accept and we move forward unified.

So yes, i'll stand by my comments. Give full support to the coach.

Incidentally, after i said thought i remembered what Pratt said and did when he came in and it was very similar. Tell me what you need and i'll get it for you. There's hope i can become a billionaire yet....

If I walk into an organisation with the charter to make better, I don't assume anything, I review what's there and determine its status. Whatever I review falls into 3 categories.
1. Green Light - do nothing and proceed.
2. Yellow Light - Satisfactory, continue but needs improvement.
3. Red Light - Unsatisfactory, do no proceed needs replacing.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 22, 2021, 10:58:52 am
Thats part  of Capcoms charter, however if you believe the rumours of how our mobs players are perceived by those outside the organisation, its their in some ways already, just got to back it up with wins.
The Carlton Arrogance I talk of brushes opponents aside, it's never about letting them in or leaving the door ajar!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 22, 2021, 11:21:05 am
The Carlton Arrogance I talk of brushes opponents aside, it's never about letting them in or leaving the door ajar!
I here ya
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Professer E on August 22, 2021, 11:27:31 am
I'm nominate to oversee list management and recruiting.   I'd like to nominate RR for development.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 22, 2021, 11:38:43 am
I'd like to know how Ross is going to cope with the new rules, which seem designed to phase out the way he likes to play. 6-6-6, the mark rule, less rotations.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 22, 2021, 11:57:35 am
I'd like to know how Ross is going to cope with the new rules, which seem designed to phase out the way he likes to play. 6-6-6, the mark rule, less rotations.
When you hear him analyse the game on Ch9 and MMM, he knows. FFIW my mate, Hawks supporter, is a junior footy coach and wannabe seniors coach (suburban level). Rates Lyon as the best footy analyst and coach in the business and reckons he would be perfect for us (more so than Clarkson).
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 22, 2021, 12:04:48 pm
When you hear him analyse the game on Ch9 and MMM, he knows. FFIW my mate, Hawks supporter, is a junior footy coach and wannabe seniors coach (suburban level). Rates Lyon as the best footy analyst and coach in the business and reckons he would be perfect for us (more so than Clarkson).

That's all fine, but he can still be employed by us as a tactician / footy analyst, then it's a win / win. I've only seen snippets of him (admittedly a lot of snippets) and I find him a little hard to follow. He has a unique take on the English language and particular turns of phrase that leave me scratching my head. I don't rate him as a good communicator.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 22, 2021, 12:22:36 pm
Lyon is eccentric and contrarian... So we're some of his favourite players.
If every other team is playing free flowing wide running footy his team will be playing close checking ugly scrimmage footy. He thrives on
being different and backing in players like Dawson, Baker, Crowley, Ballantyne who the rest of the league hate. His problem will be the time frame and being able to turn a list around to his style of play. Can he modify his thinking to suit the modern game and work with what he has?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 22, 2021, 12:44:04 pm
If I walk into an organisation with the charter to make better, I don't assume anything, I review what's there and determine its status. Whatever I review falls into 3 categories.
1. Green Light - do nothing and proceed.
2. Yellow Light - Satisfactory, continue but needs improvement.
3. Red Light - Unsatisfactory, do no proceed needs replacing.
You seem to think that we are going in blind. We know what Teague has done as coach. He coached the NB's and made Grand Finals. Whatever assumptions you think have been made are based of results that are there for all to see.

If you are asking me to do the same about the local footy club, then sure, i'll ask around about the coach some more. Different circumstances though.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 22, 2021, 12:49:54 pm
That's all fine, but he can still be employed by us as a tactician / footy analyst, then it's a win / win. I've only seen snippets of him (admittedly a lot of snippets) and I find him a little hard to follow. He has a unique take on the English language and particular turns of phrase that leave me scratching my head. I don't rate him as a good communicator.

This comment is not me advocating Ross.

However, to address your honest comments on your perceptions, I'd like to offer this.

Communication has been my life, in many respects, since leaving school back in 1827. There are so many effective forms of communication. But we are talking here, specifically, about a physical, demanding sport. Not academia (which I admire and respect... but not so much when it comes to action, getting things done in the real world).

What I observe with Ross is that he is a deeply passionate person. I love that. Passionate people can do rather interesting things with the English language, however. It comes with the territory, and so what. What is most important does the message get through to the receiver, connect with the receiver and motivate the receiver. Language and passion working together can be irresistible, and deeply effective. Ross also has very broad tactical, strategic nous, as does Clarko. And you can't separate the passion from the tactical from everything else in the individual. It's a package.

Expecting Ross to take a role that used his analysis and strategic nous only would never work. It's the whole package that makes him good at what he does. I understand that there are many folks who are almost entirely intellectual, effectively controlling their emotions. And that is entirely appropriate in some settings. But we're talking about a senior coach.

Ross (and Clarko) have a unique ability to connect with those they coach. Their care for each of their players is palpable - passion can be an amazing communicator... without words!

Ross (and Clarko) are also born leaders. And that's where they do there best work... as a leader.

Our game is a gladiatorial sport which requires both passion and strategy - heart and brain.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 22, 2021, 12:55:19 pm
If I walk into an organisation with the charter to make better, I don't assume anything, I review what's there and determine its status. Whatever I review falls into 3 categories.
1. Green Light - do nothing and proceed.
2. Yellow Light - Satisfactory, continue but needs improvement.
3. Red Light - Unsatisfactory, do no proceed needs replacing.

Like it.

Yellow and red both say... change is required. Results are not where they should or could be.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 22, 2021, 01:10:38 pm
This comment is not me advocating Ross.

However, to address your honest comments on your perceptions, I'd like to offer this.

Communication has been my life, in many respects, since leaving school back in 1827. There are so many effective forms of communication. But we are talking here, specifically, about a physical, demanding sport. Not academia (which I admire and respect... but not so much when it comes to action, getting things done in the real world).

What I observe with Ross is that he is a deeply passionate person. I love that. Passionate people can do rather interesting things with the English language, however. It comes with the territory, and so what. What is most important does the message get through to the receiver, connect with the receiver and motivate the receiver. Language and passion working together can be irresistible, and deeply effective. Ross also has very broad tactical, strategic nous, as does Clarko. And you can't separate the passion from the tactical from everything else in the individual. It's a package.

Expecting Ross to take a role that used his analysis and strategic nous only would never work. It's the whole package that makes him good at what he does. I understand that there are many folks who are almost entirely intellectual, effectively controlling their emotions. And that is entirely appropriate in some settings. But we're talking about a senior coach.

Ross (and Clarko) have a unique ability to connect with those they coach. Their care for each of their players is palpable - passion can be an amazing communicator... without words!

Ross (and Clarko) are also born leaders. And that's where they do there best work... as a leader.

Our game is a gladiatorial sport which requires both passion and strategy - heart and brain.

I accept that it's way more critical that the players understand him than me. I'm not convinced that he cannot be employed only as a tactician / footy analyst. That's basically what he does now. If that's what the club offers him, and he says "no, senior coach or nothing", then we say arrivedverci. We can't be held to ransom. I am of course being hypothetical about what has or hasn't been offered.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 22, 2021, 01:25:56 pm
I accept that it's way more critical that the players understand him than me. I'm not convinced that he cannot be employed only as a tactician / footy analyst. That's basically what he does now. If that's what the club offers him, and he says "no, senior coach or nothing", then we say arrivedverci. We can't be held to ransom. I am of course being hypothetical about what has or hasn't been offered.

Yes, that's what he's doing now... but he's now realised it aint enough, as demonstrated through his reaction to what Lethal said to him.

I recall, quite vividly, Ross giving an analysis of a game a few weeks back, using the big screen on the wall. He wasn't giving an analysis (though he was!), he was coaching. He was passionately invested in what should be done and why, he was passionately frustrated by what wasn't being done and why. No point asking a frog for his legs only because you like his spring! Gotta take the whole frog... and so it should be.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 22, 2021, 01:38:18 pm
We can't be held to ransom. I am of course being hypothetical about what has or hasn't been offered.
We are being held ransom already by our ineffective and reactive board, we've been held ransom for two decades!
 
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 22, 2021, 01:46:42 pm
We are being held ransom already by our ineffective and reactive board, we've been held ransom for two decades!
 

I guess so, but my point was really about others like Lyon demanding a particular gig or else no deal.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 22, 2021, 02:31:15 pm
Lyon is eccentric and contrarian... So we're some of his favourite players.
If every other team is playing free flowing wide running footy his team will be playing close checking ugly scrimmage footy. He thrives on
being different and backing in players like Dawson, Baker, Crowley, Ballantyne who the rest of the league hate. His problem will be the time frame and being able to turn a list around to his style of play. Can he modify his thinking to suit the modern game and work with what he has?
He'll need to.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 23, 2021, 10:32:48 am
Email From the President.

 I wanted you to be the first to know that our football club has today entered its next phase of the extensive independent football department review that has been conducted by external panel members Geoff Walsh, Graham Lowe and Matthew Pavlich.

 

As communicated last week, the external panel had delivered a final report to me, the Club’s Board of Directors, and CEO Cain Liddle.

 

This report contains detailed information from key stakeholders across the entire football department and will be used as a basis for our club to make necessary and informed decisions to take the football department forward and improve our on-field performance.

 

With our AFL season complete, our club is now in a position to fully brief the senior leaders of the Football Department on the review findings. This process will commence this week and will involve consultation between the Board and football department regarding the recommendations provided.

 

The Club will take the necessary time required to absorb this review and any outcomes or decisions will be made on the timeframe that is in the best interest of the Club, not based on external expectations or pressure.

 

As always, I remain committed to continue being open and transparent with our members and supporters regarding any outcomes and decisions that will arise out of this review, including the summarised findings, and as such, once this process is complete, our members will be the first to know.

Alternate text
Luke Sayers
President
Member ID: 2908822
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Professer E on August 23, 2021, 10:57:29 am
'Final' report?   It was 'interim' last week.

I suspect we've delayed things because we're still negotiating with potential coaches,  but anyway,  I like the way the club appears to be working to its own schedule.   Not Whateley's or the rest if the media vultures. So thanks Sayers for politely giving them the F you.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 23, 2021, 11:04:30 am
I suspect the club running to "their own schedule" is code for "waiting for an answer from Clarkson".
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 23, 2021, 11:10:32 am
I suspect the club running to "their own schedule" is code for "waiting for an answer from Clarkson".

Seems there's no plan on sacking Teague in a hurry so you could well be right.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 23, 2021, 11:11:37 am
Seems there's no plan on sacking Teague in a hurry so you could well be right.
Or they might not be sacking him.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 23, 2021, 11:17:42 am
Or they might not be sacking him.

That too.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 23, 2021, 11:35:46 am
I suspect the club running to "their own schedule" is code for "waiting for an answer from Clarkson".

Ahem, do I detect a trace of cynicism there Paul?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 23, 2021, 11:37:10 am
Ahem, do I detect a trace of cynicism there Paul?

Yes.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 23, 2021, 11:38:00 am
 :D
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Milhanna13 on August 23, 2021, 12:27:33 pm
But, but, but,  David King says we should act on the report immediately - and we all know what a Corporate Governance expert he is.   Agree with most on here - we get lambasted for jumping at shadows and knee jerk decisions,  now we take our time (and probably give Ross and Clarko some time to get back to us), and we get killed for that.   Id be less concerned what the shock jocks and muck rakers have to say, and just do our thing, that suits CFC
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 23, 2021, 12:32:11 pm
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/carlton-blues/afl-news-2021-carlton-blues-cancel-meeting-david-teagues-future-sacked-fired-announcement-press-conference-external-review-findings/news-story/09ab928249251dcf5c62ad564ac57827
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Mantis on August 23, 2021, 01:21:29 pm
To cancel a meeting is not always a good thing for the current coach. Sounds to me like they are fishing around for an alternative catch. Otherwise you would think he would have been told his job is safe with major changes needed around him in terms of support. Either way I hate the media speculation and would father hear nothing before Sayers makes an announcement to members and the media himself. My feeling is that we could see quite a few changes. Now we wait to see the next chapter.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 23, 2021, 01:24:15 pm
To cancel a meeting is not always a good thing for the current coach.
Excuse me, just a minor interruption!

(https://www.biography.com/.image/ar_16:9%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1200/MTY4OTUyODMyNTUxMDM2Mzky/hero-image-the-godfather-gettyimages-159837887.jpg)
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 23, 2021, 01:28:46 pm
Teague arriving for a thorough review.

(https://c.tenor.com/teSU6IPReIAAAAAC/grandpa-simpson.gif)
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 23, 2021, 01:29:35 pm
If only in the face of media pressure Sayers still showed that same resolve he used when he allegedly pushed Dan down the stairs! :o

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/IcyImpassionedIchthyostega-size_restricted.gif)
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LoveNavy on August 23, 2021, 03:26:20 pm
Email From the President.

 I wanted you to be the first to know that our football club has today entered its next phase of the extensive independent football department review that has been conducted by external panel members Geoff Walsh, Graham Lowe and Matthew Pavlich.

 

As communicated last week, the external panel had delivered a final report to me, the Club’s Board of Directors, and CEO Cain Liddle.

 

This report contains detailed information from key stakeholders across the entire football department and will be used as a basis for our club to make necessary and informed decisions to take the football department forward and improve our on-field performance.

 

With our AFL season complete, our club is now in a position to fully brief the senior leaders of the Football Department on the review findings. This process will commence this week and will involve consultation between the Board and football department regarding the recommendations provided.

 

The Club will take the necessary time required to absorb this review and any outcomes or decisions will be made on the timeframe that is in the best interest of the Club, not based on external expectations or pressure.

 

As always, I remain committed to continue being open and transparent with our members and supporters regarding any outcomes and decisions that will arise out of this review, including the summarised findings, and as such, once this process is complete, our members will be the first to know.

Alternate text
Luke Sayers
President
Member ID: 2908822


My email to our membership dept

Good afternoon.

Having received the following advice from Luke Sayers:

"The Club will take the necessary time required to absorb this review and any outcomes or decisions will be made on the timeframe that is in the best interest of the Club"

I wish to advise that CFC memberships held by our family members are to be considered in the following manner.

Members X, X, & X will take the time necessary to consider the outcomes and decisions made by The Club before renewing our respective memberships.

This means permission to "rollover membership" is to be placed on hold.

Our assessment of the eptitude of the decision making, resultant implementation, and communication of the review, will determine whether or not our long term membership status will continue.

This is in response to what appears to be chronic ineptitude in The Club's decision making. This has resulted in humiliation and embarrassment to be a member of what was once a great sporting club.

If anyone is interested enough to seek opinion from members, I'd welcome the opportunity to discuss further.

Yours faithfully
X
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Micky0 on August 23, 2021, 03:50:28 pm
I like it LN!

Regardless of outcome, to leave DT In this position is utterly reprehensible.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LoveNavy on August 23, 2021, 04:08:21 pm
I like it LN!

Thanks Micky0

There are so many decisions and actions over the decades that appear to me to be questionable to disrespectful to incompetent to down right dirty. I know our few voices are probably insignificant. However, I'd rather speak up than continue to be disappointed in silence.

Regardless of outcome, to leave DT In this position is utterly reprehensible.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 23, 2021, 04:47:45 pm
Stanton gone
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Micky0 on August 23, 2021, 05:00:41 pm

Totally agree - at least when you say something, you have said your peace or is it piece?! you know what i mean!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 23, 2021, 05:31:40 pm
I like it LN!

Regardless of outcome, to leave DT In this position is utterly reprehensible.

The fact Teague is there discussing the review, presenting to the Board about the season tells me there is no decision on him. You don't do that if they have decided to terminate you. I'm thinking we are waiting on an answer from Clarko too. Could well stay if Clarko says he is taking a year off and would be good for 2023.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 23, 2021, 06:13:03 pm
The fact Teague is there discussing the review, presenting to the Board about the season tells me there is no decision on him. You don't do that if they have decided to terminate you. I'm thinking we are waiting on an answer from Clarko too. Could well stay if Clarko says he is taking a year off and would be good for 2023.
Bit of Pantomime for the media and Navy Blue masses perhaps.....the condemned man gets to speak, gets a last meal before we
kick the chair out from under his feet. I wouldnt coach unless my contract was extended, I wouldnt be giving another year of my life so Clarko gets the players with a few more miles on the clock and better prepared for him to take over.
If the board want Clarko then he has to take the job now and not use Teague as a caretaker, I'd tell them they can get John Barker back to care take and polish the coaching box for Clarko..
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 23, 2021, 06:40:50 pm
Time On
@TimeOnSEN
·
20m
"Alastair Clarkson, they are throwing the kitchen sink at. Certainly if Clarko says yes to coaching the Blues then all bets are off. If Alastair Clarkson for whatever reason declines the job, there is a very good chance that David Teague will remain in charge."

- Sam Edmund


Time On
@TimeOnSEN
·
28m
"Ross Lyon has been speaking like he might have the job, and that may be the case, but my understanding is that his chance of coaching the club have faded in the past 24 hours. I have been told there has been a cooling on Ross Lyon."

- Sam Edmund
More...Quick EditQuote
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 23, 2021, 08:15:07 pm
The parasite media vultures parked out the front of PP waiting for corpses to be carried out.
Fork you all, Sayers gave them nothing.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 23, 2021, 10:26:06 pm
The parasite media vultures parked out the front of PP waiting for corpses to be carried out.
Fork you all, Sayers gave them nothing.

Until tomorrow…
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 24, 2021, 08:55:23 am
IF the rumours of Liddle muddying the waters re Lyon as he doesn't want SOS back at the club are true, then he is not acting in the best interest of the club, he's making it personal. And that's a fight Liddle doesn't want to pick.

IF the CFC faithful had a choice between Liddle and SOS - no contest. Liddle had better not be white-anting Lyon to prevent SOS from returning. IF so, don't let the door hit your @rse on the way out, Liddle.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 24, 2021, 09:12:21 am
What we are seeing at the moment is the battle between the old Carlton and the new Carlton, which will win?

Unfortunately, I see this divide in the playing list as well, and I suspect people like Teague and Bolton before him are just collateral damage caused by the wheels of change and the death throws of the old ways.

Oddly, I first got a whiff of this back when Harf was called in to replace Daniel Keeping in the AFLW.

Personally, even if the old Carlton wins, it is on borrowed time, so despite the eagerness of some to see the return of the "SOS Faction", I call it that for lack of a better name, perhaps it is better if it doesn't win now and the "Liddle Faction" cements it's place. However I qualify that with the idea the Board needs to reign in the "Liddle Faction" and keep it operating in it's play pen. Does the Board have the cohunes?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: tonyo on August 24, 2021, 09:44:47 am
The noise coming from the media is about their need for a quick kill.  And, of course, they all have their inside sources with any number of 'whispers'.

If (and it's a big if) the Board is actually trying to digest the review findings to make the best decisions, then so be it.  There are many assumptions on this site about the internal politics and who is doing what.  What is certain is the need to identify where improvements are needed, and how to achieve that.

This is not the time for knee-jerk reactions to suit the press.  All the noise about Teague's demise is coming from the Media and Liam Pickering.  DT is only human, and when pushed by the media about his fate, what else could he say but 'it doesn't look good'.

Clearly, the Board needed to talk to Clarkson and Lyon or be accused of not pursuing every possible option.


Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 24, 2021, 09:46:35 am
The media point the knives at individual targets, but they may not be the right target.

For all that we debate, we do not know who is making the calls on players and coaches, we as fans assume it's the cockroach or MC making decisions who to play and who to pay, but it could well be the Executive.

"There's a rotten apple Jim, and we have to find it."

Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 24, 2021, 09:51:27 am
The events of recent days may have turned over some rocks that the review was not aware of.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 24, 2021, 09:54:05 am
The events of recent days may have turned over some rocks that the review was not aware of.
Well, from our perspective, but not necessarily oblivious to the insiders, just not spoken about openly.
 
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 24, 2021, 09:58:53 am
Well, from our perspective, but not necessarily oblivious to the insiders, just not spoken about openly.

We can't be sure all interviewees would have been open and forthright in the review. Many probably would have gone into survival mode.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 24, 2021, 10:03:47 am
We can't be sure all interviewees would have been open and forthright in the review. Many probably would have gone into survival mode.
This is potentially where those rumoured canary traps come into play.

You can't assume everyone gets asked the same questions, I bet Walsh is A-Grade at cutting through this rubbish! ;)

If nothing else, it exposes who is telling you porky pies, even if it doesn't reveal the truth it can still reveal character!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 24, 2021, 10:07:09 am
There were rumours going back years that Bolton bought it for the sake of Cripps mental health.

In doing that did we teach Pavlov's Dog a new involuntary trick, a way of dealing with stress that has a negative outcome for remainder of the club?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 24, 2021, 10:08:11 am
Fans are all about Pickering on Teague, but they ignore that Pickering is Weitering's uncle! :o

Be careful what you wish for, manage this very very carefully!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 24, 2021, 10:11:46 am
Here is my wash up, based on the surfacing rumours there are some irrevocable conclusions even if only a small small percentage of it is true;

 - Teague can't be coach.
 - Cripps and Doc can't be captains.
 - Liddle has been asleep at the wheel.
 - Brad Lloyd is gone.
 - Some big name players will be lost.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 24, 2021, 10:14:03 am
Fans are all about Pickering on Teague, but they ignore that Pickering is Weitering's uncle! :o

Be careful what you wish for, manage this very very carefully!

The whole AFL scene seems incredibly incestuous. Maybe this is one of the problems.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 24, 2021, 10:15:24 am
The whole AFL scene seems incredibly incestuous. May this is one of the problems.
I've certainly seen that at TAC Cup level, it's not an equal opportunity environment, but of course this is not new to us at Carlton, just ask SOS and Liddle!
 
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 24, 2021, 10:17:45 am
Can someone mock up a Survivor Poster with a bunch of Carlton heads, it would seem to fit the circumstance!

(https://leelipman.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/survivor_season28_brains_brawn_beauty.gif)

Or maybe Lord of the Flys!

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ImperturbableValidDassie-size_restricted.gif)
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: capcom on August 24, 2021, 10:29:35 am
Makes me wonder whether this review really pulled some scabs off a festering sore.  Likelihood IMO is it did. 
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Professer E on August 24, 2021, 10:39:28 am
The media parasites don't let up do they?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 24, 2021, 10:46:07 am
The media parasites don't let up do they?
I've always stated our Church Mouse media policy cannot win, because even if you are quiet and get on with the job they will just make stuff up.

The AFL Media are like weeds, you have to actively control them and if you don't they'll just take over!

Like the AFL Executive, the AFL Media is full of failed lawyers, it seems to be the Monash and Melbourne Uni Law Depts produce more sports reporters than legal eagles! As part of law they get the training to disassemble and recompose a narrative for their own benefit.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Lods on August 24, 2021, 10:58:52 am
Here is my wash up, based on the surfacing rumours there are some irrevocable conclusions even if only a small small percentage of it is true;

 - Teague can't be coach.
 - Cripps and Doc can't be captains.
 - Liddle has been asleep at the wheel.
 - Brad Lloyd is gone.
 - Some big name players will be lost.

That's about it...

In 2014 we finished 13th ( an injury hit season)
Two games into 2015 they announced a review and derailed the 2015 season
In 2021 we finished 13th (an injury hit season)

Worst rebuild ever. ::)
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 24, 2021, 11:09:54 am
That's about it...

In 2014 we finished 13th ( an injury hit season)
Two games into 2015 they announced a review and derailed the 2015 season
In 2021 we finished 13th (an injury hit season)

Worst rebuild ever. ::)

Strictly speaking, they announced a rebuild in 2015. With the benefit of hindsight, I think the rebuild was half at$ed and didn't go far enough. They should have started from scratch with everything - Board, Executive, coaches, players, marketing, the whole club.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: DJC on August 24, 2021, 11:19:25 am
I wonder how far the media speculation is from reality  :-\

Ignoring the media and alleged leaks aired on social media, and considering only the official communications from the club, the review process seems logical and well-planned.  That is, the independent panel conducts its investigation and provides the board with its report at the end of the season (I suspect that it would have been held back if we had made the finals).  Stakeholders are then involved in considering the report and finalising actions to address issues identified.  That process would seem to be very much driven by Sayers and based on his particular expertise.

I suspect that the media management approach has been to provide nothing but prepared statements.  The media will run with whatever will sell papers, increase audiences, get more likes, regardless of what the club says, but I would have thought more regular affirmations of the process would have been beneficial.  The problem with the 'say nothing' approach is that Teague didn't get the memo and was sucked into commenting.  If he does continue as head coach, and I think that he will, media training should be part of his development package.     
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Lods on August 24, 2021, 11:19:33 am
Strictly speaking, they announced a rebuild in 2015. With the benefit of hindsight, I think the rebuild was half at$ed and didn't go far enough. They should have started from scratch with everything - Board, Executive, coaches, players, marketing, the whole club.

Yep...two games into 2015

It was a...
a) Time buying exercise to deflect criticism.
b) A move designed to force out the coach who didn't want a bar of a rebuild
c) Both of the above.

The effect was it killed the season 2015 as all efforts went into setting up for the start of the rebuild. Players were left uncertain about their future and the coach's future.

Now six years later we've had another 'time-buying exercise' that derailed a season and left the club (looking from the outside) in a bit of a mess.

Six years of rebuild...and this!
And folks say we should be patient. ::)
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 24, 2021, 11:29:17 am
Yep...two games into 2015

It was a...
a) Time buying exercise to deflect criticism.
b) A move designed to force out the coach who didn't want a bar of a rebuild
c) Both of the above.

The effect was it killed the season 2015 as all efforts went into setting up for the start of the rebuild. Players were left uncertain about their future and the coach's future.

Now six years later we've had another 'time-buying exercise' that derailed a season and left the club (looking from the outside) in a bit of a mess.

Six years of rebuild...and this!
And folks say we should be patient. ::)

Unfortunately, every significant change, be it senior coach, CEO, list, sets the clock back a little further, as each new person or regime remakes the club (or their part of the club) in their own image.

Whether supporters are aggrieved or not, success looks ages away at the moment. If Clarkson or Lyon come in, they will want to tinker, and that takes more time than just sticking with Teague and helping him to iron out the kinks IMO. Although with everything that's happened in the last 24/48 hours, I suspect it's too late for Teague, and if he does coach in 2022, it will be in pretty trying circumstances.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 24, 2021, 11:43:40 am
Six years of rebuild...and this!
And folks say we should be patient. ::)
Yet, I can't help but think we're again throwing out the treasure and keeping the crap!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Lods on August 24, 2021, 11:59:22 am
Yet, I can't help but think we're again throwing out the treasure and keeping the crap!

Quite possibly
I'm not sure how you determine that though, when the guys making the decisions have bought us to this point.
The review might have been ill-timed.
It may have had some pre-determined findings (things that were already known)
But the review is the best we have.

I wonder whether we'll ever reach the point where a group of competent ,qualified, passionate supporters put their heads together and ask the members to give them a go at running the place.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Professer E on August 24, 2021, 12:02:38 pm
They'll  never get a look in thanks to the "nominations committee".  ie you have to be a mate of the inner circle or you've got Buckley's.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: raven on August 24, 2021, 12:39:18 pm
That's about it...

In 2014 we finished 13th ( an injury hit season)
Two games into 2015 they announced a review and derailed the 2015 season
In 2021 we finished 13th (an injury hit season)

Worst rebuild ever. ::)

We're only 20odd years into our 50 year rebuild though...  :(
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 24, 2021, 12:54:40 pm
I wonder whether we'll ever reach the point where a group of competent ,qualified, passionate supporters put their heads together and ask the members to give them a go at running the place.
This is where money corrupts, our addiction to the money tree leaves us a victim of the generous benefactor.

It's ironic, they all desire the same thing, they want the club to win, yet the people handing the money out are nearly always the main reason for it being wasted and ultimately scuppering that very process they support financially! ;)

We really miss Dick Pratt, because he played at a level that gave him a unique understanding, he knew when to tell the accountants and executives to get out of the pool and let the people get to work!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 24, 2021, 01:03:29 pm
In one of the threads @Gointocarlton‍ posed a question about what would we do if we were on the Board.

I joked about arrogance, but I'd do one thing very seriously, I'd partition Football and Commercial.

There would be an impenetrable barrier, and the only magic way to cross it would be to announce yourself, announce what you intend to do and why, and force adherence to those declarations, so that all anonymity in decision making is removed the moment you choose to cross that barrier in either direction. Forced responsibility through complete transparency and accountability.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Lods on August 24, 2021, 02:29:09 pm
Barass70 on Bigfooty has come in from his self isolation with the message that 'only a handful will survive.' and 'It's happening and more'

Re-Liddle-Good chance out

That  place has gone a bit feral.

Soon find out if he's a really good ITK
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 24, 2021, 02:34:05 pm
People can be paranoid, they think someone announcing an event that was secret or private indicates a leak, it is not always the case.

Sometimes to work out what is going on you just have to be far enough away from the events to see the whole picture, you get to see the forest whiles those in the middle of it can only see a few trees!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 24, 2021, 02:45:50 pm
If Cripps stays we need serious pace around him, and not skinnies. Kennedy, Walsh, Ed are strong enough but too slow.

Dow is OK but struggles to hit a barn by foot, Williams is still possibly a key if they can get him fit enough.

A couple of our kids floating around the VFL look good enough, but are probably at least a season or two away.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Blue Moon on August 24, 2021, 04:42:56 pm
Caroline Wilson was saying a long way out, and before the review was announced, that Teague would be sacked and Clarkson would be installed as Coach for 2022 despite both being contracted to the end of 2022 by their respective Clubs. Clearly she was being briefed by certain Board Members or certain Board Members were talking to people who then were talking to Wilson. The old plausible deniability ploy. The actions of these 'Faceless Men', and they will be men, to undermine the clear agreed strategy of the Club, undermine the Coach and undermine the team's performance throughout 2021 is a disgrace. The review was always a thinly designed process to engineer this scenario. The problem is that Clarkson does not seem to have committed to this process.
We have been down this scenario before. A jaded supercoach forced out by a egotistical President who wanted his own choice as Coach coming to Carlton to put the finishing touches on a list that was primed to potentially win a Premiership. We all know how that worked out.
I have been quite happy with LaGiudice as President. The year before he became president he gave a presentation basically setting out his vision for the Club to the AGM. In his term, the playing list has been rebuilt, the Football Department has been restructured, a Carlton AFLW team was selected to be part of the inaugural season which was far from being a certainty, Membership numbers have increased dramatically, debt has been eliminated and Princes Park has been redeveloped and now has facilities that a high performance professional sporting organisation should have. However the on field team performance have been less than satisfactory.
I do not know what Luke Sayer stands for. I do not know what his vision is for the Club and I do not know what his values are and whether they align with the stated values of the Club, particularly around 'Respect'. He didn't stand up for Teague or the Football Department at anytime through the announcement of the Review to its conclusion. If as I suspect, he and his supporters were involved in the backgrounding of the media and the undermining of the agreed positions of the Board, Teague has a Contract for 2022 which was signed off by the Board, then clearly he is untrustworthy. As this has all been done through anonymity, smoke and mirrors, then to me he lacks courage and honesty.
The whole process has been a farce. I have pondered this for a long time. Over the past twenty years we have had players, we have had coaches, we have had CEO's, we have had Football Managers, but it is now clear to me what we have lacked are Boards and Board Members that have not been able to develop a process whereby they can develop an agreed strategy they are willing and able to stick to and have not demonstrated the capability to work through problems when they arise in a constructive coherent and honest manner. We are consistently getting people on the Board who are unable to control their egos, keep diverging from the plan, seek simple and short term solutions and are unwilling to take responsibility for any failure by engaging in blame shifting. The good ones just get out.

 
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 24, 2021, 05:14:31 pm
Caroline Wilson was saying a long way out, and before the review was announced, that Teague would be sacked and Clarkson would be installed as Coach for 2022 despite both being contracted to the end of 2022 by their respective Clubs. Clearly she was being briefed by certain Board Members or certain Board Members were talking to people who then were talking to Wilson. The old plausible deniability ploy. The actions of these 'Faceless Men', and they will be men, to undermine the clear agreed strategy of the Club, undermine the Coach and undermine the team's performance throughout 2021 is a disgrace. The review was always a thinly designed process to engineer this scenario. The problem is that Clarkson does not seem to have committed to this process.
That's a post or posts like it that have been circulating a while in different forms on different forums, it's been pushed a bit on Talking Carlton.

But it is basically a conflagration of two very separate issues surrounding Judd's training wheels comment and the Kennett Clarkson dispute. I'm not sure at which point someone merged them deliberately if it was even deliberate.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Blue Moon on August 24, 2021, 05:16:47 pm
I am not sure what you mean LP
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 24, 2021, 05:24:35 pm
I am not sure what you mean LP
It was a hypothesis based on Judd's Teague training wheels comment, that Teague would be gone by seasons end, and the dispute between Kennett and Clarkson that suggests Clarkson's tenure was coming to an end. So the natural conflagration is Teague out Clarkson in.

The idea is hasn't gone to plan is bogus, because there was never a plan in the first place, it wasn't presented simultaneously, the initial claims that Teague would be gone and Clarkson would be gone were months apart. Now some are trying to paint it as a unified master plan leaked to the media!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Smurfy on August 24, 2021, 06:03:13 pm
Here is my wash up, based on the surfacing rumours there are some irrevocable conclusions even if only a small small percentage of it is true;

 - Teague can't be coach.
 - Cripps and Doc can't be captains.
 - Liddle has been asleep at the wheel.
 - Brad Lloyd is gone.
 - Some big name players will be lost.

Care to elaborate on  which big name players will be lost???
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Blue Moon on August 24, 2021, 06:54:06 pm
LP, I have a different memory. My memory is Wilson stating that her Carlton sources have said that Teague will not be coaching Carlton next year and Clarkson would be. Nothing to do with training wheels. It was all about her reporting the belief of some people at Carlton that Carlton needs and should have a big name Coaching their team. So I stick by my belief their was a plan to engineer the removal of Teague and have him replaced by Clarkson. Just because the plan seems to have hit a snag because Clarkson wasn't and isn't on board yet, doesn't mean there wasn't a plan.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 24, 2021, 07:00:18 pm
LP, I have a different memory. My memory is Wilson stating that her Carlton sources have said that Teague will not be coaching Carlton next year and Clarkson would be. Nothing to do with training wheels. It was all about her reporting the belief of some people at Carlton that Carlton needs and should have a big name Coaching their team. So I stick by my belief their was a plan to engineer the removal of Teague and have him replaced by Clarkson. Just because the plan seems to have hit a snag because Clarkson wasn't and isn't on board yet, doesn't mean there wasn't a plan.
Caro brings up the training wheels comment as often as she can.

She may not have mentioned it when she said what you've said above, but she says it so often it goes without saying.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Lods on August 24, 2021, 08:02:05 pm
I'll put this here because if we're looking at a few changes this is one of those who needs a promotion.

https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/1007895/own-it-grow-from-it-weitering-sums-up-2021?fbclid=IwAR2Dr-JBTyxXu33sjTsP-Hs0riy4cqR7ifiPTD5tNwlCM6N2_sqcZ--_1l0
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 24, 2021, 08:10:11 pm
I'll put this here because if we're looking at a few changes this is one of those who needs a promotion.

https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/1007895/own-it-grow-from-it-weitering-sums-up-2021?fbclid=IwAR2Dr-JBTyxXu33sjTsP-Hs0riy4cqR7ifiPTD5tNwlCM6N2_sqcZ--_1l0

I do like the sub heading, which refers to it as an "extended chat." 3.48. Wow. Us oldies are still clearing our throats at the 3 min 48 sec mark lol.

Ah, the kids of today.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Stone Motherless on August 24, 2021, 10:26:01 pm
Absolute crap show what's going on at the moment. How can the board, in good conscience, leave Teague hanging out to dry while they are actively white-anting him - not even behind his back, but in plain sight. Effectively asking him to hang around while we bring in your replacement! A circus.

Teague has every right to tell them to GAGF.

Perhaps 'in good conscience' is actually their problem. They don't know what one is. Thrown good money after bad at problems and hope they go away for years.

Biggest problem is that this club does not belong to the members. Benefactors own it. It's been at the whim of the Pratt's and Mathieson's for years. They are the cancer that poisons the place.

The club must return to the members.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Micky0 on August 24, 2021, 10:48:59 pm
I reckon TT will get sacked and whoever else, on Friday morning - just before finals start so we aren’t the biggest media attraction once finals start up.

So Pissed off its come to this and Fck the whole board, what a disgraceful episode AGAIN for our club!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 25, 2021, 08:10:35 am
I'll put this here because if we're looking at a few changes this is one of those who needs a promotion.

https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/1007895/own-it-grow-from-it-weitering-sums-up-2021?fbclid=IwAR2Dr-JBTyxXu33sjTsP-Hs0riy4cqR7ifiPTD5tNwlCM6N2_sqcZ--_1l0
Interesting those "Team First" comments relating to next year and the pre-season, notice the hesitation to speak when raising that point, .................. it's a tell!

This bloke should be captain, .......................... and by some margin!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Lods on August 25, 2021, 08:36:37 am
Doing my best 'facebook admin' impersonation'.

Things will happen today

(because I read it on bigfooty) ;D
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: DJC on August 25, 2021, 09:38:53 am
Doing my best 'facebook admin' impersonation'.

Things will happen today

(because I read it on bigfooty) ;D

Brett Temple on FB reckons today’s the day.  However, his tips/inside knowledge have been off the mark so far.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Lods on August 25, 2021, 09:44:11 am
Brett Temple on FB reckons today’s the day.  However, his tips/inside knowledge have been off the mark so far.

Go straight to the Bigfooty rumour files and cut out the middle-man ;) ;D
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 25, 2021, 09:58:59 am
Interesting those "Team First" comments relating to next year and the pre-season, notice the hesitation to speak when raising that point, .................. it's a tell!

This bloke should be captain, .......................... and by some margin!

Yep....team first...and coming from a non-captain.

Very telling indeed if you read between the lines.

I also noticed him talking a lot about himself personally and how he needs to improve, or what he did right for the benefit of the team....and acknowledged his backline mates. Less talk about how the rest of the team went. Perhaps he doesn't want to point out where the issues lie. If you can't say anything nice...
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 25, 2021, 10:27:55 am
If you can't say anything nice...
Yes, this is exactly his personality, very thoughtful, very considered.

But when he crosses the white line he changes dramatically, so fans do not need to fear about that affecting how he would lead! ;)
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 25, 2021, 11:51:15 am
Ah, the world of mixed messages... or should I say, mixed assumptions.

The media is having a field day with this, with opinions flying about all over the place. Opinions based on rumour and speculation.

Very impressed that the club is sticking with its process/agenda/timing and not jumping about trying to respond to the media's agenda/pressure & sensational needs.

Personally more than happy to wait until things actually happen rather than speculate, 2nd guess and jump at shadows.

Major change takes time and though unfortunate, even sad, there will be casualties and they won't be happy.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 25, 2021, 12:00:22 pm
Ah, the world of mixed messages... or should I say, mixed assumptions.

The media is having a field day with this, with opinions flying about all over the place. Opinions based on rumour and speculation.

Very impressed that the club is sticking with its process/agenda/timing and not jumping about trying to respond to the media's agenda/pressure & sensational needs.

Personally more than happy to wait until things actually happen rather than speculate, 2nd guess and jump at shadows.

Major change takes time and though unfortunate, even sad, there will be casualties and they won't be happy.

A lot of assumptions in there too Baggers 😄
It’s quite likely that the internals are in melt down as we speak, it’s just that they had the good fortune to lock the doors and windows when they went inside !
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 25, 2021, 12:00:34 pm
...

Major change takes time and though unfortunate, even sad, there will be casualties and they won't be happy.

I have no issue with major change, but it has to be the right change. I'd be very curious to know if the review is telling the club to sack Teague, or telling them get Clarko if he's available. If it's the former, you'd have to legitimately ask why we paid three blokes good money to tell us something we're already good at, and which we were probably going to do anyway. "You've sacked 5 blokes so far this century, if hasn't worked out, but you should sack one more. You'll eventually find the right one. Good things take time. That'll be 100k thanks."
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 25, 2021, 12:04:43 pm
A lot of assumptions in there too Baggers 😄
It’s quite likely that the internals are in melt down as we speak, it’s just that they had the good fortune to lock the doors and windows when they went inside !

I have no doubt that the internals are 'hot'... I'm just glad it's all behind closed doors. I don't think it's good fortune to 'shut shop', I think it's good planning.

Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 25, 2021, 12:08:31 pm
I have no issue with major change, but it has to be the right change. I'd be very curious to know if the review is telling the club to sack Teague, or telling them get Clarko if he's available. If it's the former, you'd have to legitimately ask why we paid three blokes good money to tell us something we're already good at, and which we were probably going to do anyway. "You've sacked 5 blokes so far this century, if hasn't worked out, but you should sack one more. You'll eventually find the right one. Good things take time. That'll be 100k thanks."


And that will only really be known... cliche warning... in the fullness of time. Yep, there will no doubt be an avalanche of opinion and speculation as to the effectiveness of the changes. But again, we'll only know whether the changes are right, wrong, good, bad, once they've been implemented and tested in the real world.

Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 25, 2021, 12:09:30 pm
I have no doubt that the internals are 'hot'... I'm just glad it's all behind closed doors. I don't think it's good fortune to 'shut shop', I think it's good planning.



You have more faith than I…
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Lods on August 25, 2021, 12:12:36 pm
I think this is the problem...
The club want to work at their own pace.
Good on them for that.
But what it does is leave an 'information void.'
Media and supporters will fill that with their own assumptions.

We're shooting at shadows that may not even be there.
I don't think we have a united playing group but I really have nothing concrete to support that theory.
Does Cripps not like Teague, does Teague not like Cripps.
Do Cripps and Weitering not hang together at playlunch.

We're suffering a bit of media damage at the moment but  the focus will come off a bit once the finals start.
Get the major announcements out of the way in the next few days and we'll have some good distractions to occupy everyone once the weekend games begin.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 25, 2021, 12:12:59 pm
You have more faith than I…

Understand. We've been well conditioned over the past two decades to lack trust... even to expect the worst. But, I am cautiously buoyed that at least the process (a seemingly structured one, adhered to) this time looks very different. Don't worry, my fingers are crossed. There is a conservative faction on the Board which seems to fear bold change, favouring populist change.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 25, 2021, 12:14:47 pm
And that will only really be known... cliche warning... in the fullness of time. Yep, there will no doubt be an avalanche of opinion and speculation as to the effectiveness of the changes. But again, we'll only know whether the changes are right, wrong, good, bad, once they've been implemented and tested in the real world.

This, IMO, is true, but it's also a big part of the problem. There are no guarantees in anything, but these appointments have to be a lot better than guesswork. Other clubs live in the same random, morally indifferent universe as us, and they seem to be getting these decisions right more often than not. Part of the professional aspect of decision making is to make good decisions that don't turn into problems later, and I'm not convinced we're there yet.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 25, 2021, 12:17:22 pm
I think this is the problem...
The club want to work at their own pace.
Good on them for that.
But what it does is leave an 'information void.'
Media and supporters will fill that with their own assumptions.

We're shooting at shadows that may not even be there.
I don't think we have a united playing group but I really have nothing concrete to support that theory.
Does Cripps not like Teague, does Teague not like Cripps.
Do Cripps and Weitering not hang together at playlunch.

We're suffering a bit of media damage at the moment but  the focus will come off a bit once the finals start.
Get the major announcements out of the way in the next few days and we'll have some good distractions to occupy everyone once the weekend games begin.

Well said.

The media condemnations and criticisms thus far I interpret as, "I don't understand, I don't know, I haven't got a decision to comment on... and I've cracked the sh1ts about that." I say, stiff. Focus on the finals.

Fractures in the playing group don't bother me so much as they can be very quickly remedied once a clear direction has been sold to them.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 25, 2021, 12:24:01 pm
This, IMO, is true, but it's also a big part of the problem. There are no guarantees in anything, but these appointments have to be a lot better than guesswork. Other clubs live in the same random, morally indifferent universe as us, and they seem to be getting these decisions right more often than not. Part of the professional aspect of decision making is to make good decisions that don't turn into problems later, and I'm not convinced we're there yet.


Yep, living with a lack of faith in the midst of major change asks of us trust, and that ship sailed long ago. We can only hope that the ensuing changes gradually rebuild trust. Sayers will no doubt have his work cut out for him selling these changes to some clearly, populist/risk averse inclined, Board members... who will hopefully, FO very soon.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: tonyo on August 25, 2021, 12:24:50 pm
And that will only really be known... cliche warning... in the fullness of time. Yep, there will no doubt be an avalanche of opinion and speculation as to the effectiveness of the changes. But again, we'll only know whether the changes are right, wrong, good, bad, once they've been implemented and tested in the real world.

'Success has many fathers, while failure is an orphan'

When things work out, the architects are seen as geniuses - cue Brendan Gale and Peggy O'Neal.

And those who do not oversee success are branded as incompetent and unable to make appropriate decisions - cue Leigh Matthews last night.

But in this stupid game, there is so much luck involved - injuries, the draw, Covid-like interruptions - so it's a bit like trying to complete a jigsaw when you only have a vague idea of what the picture is.  I think it's fair to say we have had the wrong end of the luck stick for 2 or 3 years, even though I know some of you will say you make your own luck.

So how do you know if it's the right change?  Simple, when combined with a fair dose of luck, 2-3 years later you win a flag.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 25, 2021, 12:27:40 pm
It also begs the question Baggers, if you have such a mindset for change, how could you have possibly sat on that board for 9 years !?
I would have been able to muster no more than 6 months at best personally !
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 25, 2021, 01:10:44 pm
It also begs the question Baggers, if you have such a mindset for change, how could you have possibly sat on that board for 9 years !?
I would have been able to muster no more than 6 months at best personally !

You're right to assume I am not a change averse kind of human.

However, there are always imperative considerations first. 1) Is the proposed change necessary, ie, does it address a failure? 2) Is the person, company, review or Board competent to institute the change or changes and see them through to implementation and beyond? All change needs tweaking. 3) Will the ramifications from the change be thoroughly thought through with all possible scenarios (legal, HR etc.) comprehensively addressed and considered. 4) Does said change have buy-in/commitment from the 'top?' 5) Will the delivery of the change be respectful of all involved. 6) Will the rationale for the change be explained thoroughly to those impacted. 7) Will there be appropriate publicity to 'sell' the change to all appropriate stake-holders and beyond? 8) Will there be a detailed assessment of the change, say, 6 months later?

I made these up on the hop and may have missed an important step or two. Just couldn't be bothered going back over my 'old' Chairman / CEO notes... and those when I was later a consultant. Ah, them thar the days!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Milhanna13 on August 25, 2021, 01:14:50 pm
Ah, the world of mixed messages... or should I say, mixed assumptions.

The media is having a field day with this, with opinions flying about all over the place. Opinions based on rumour and speculation.

Very impressed that the club is sticking with its process/agenda/timing and not jumping about trying to respond to the media's agenda/pressure & sensational needs.

Personally more than happy to wait until things actually happen rather than speculate, 2nd guess and jump at shadows.

Major change takes time and though unfortunate, even sad, there will be casualties and they won't be happy.

This!!

So many people going on about how incompetent the Board is, as they keep changing their minds.  They dont keep changing thier minds - the media's b*llcrap keeps changing.  

Ross Lyon appoints himself coach in the media (CFC says nothing).  Media decides Lyon not suitable for a few reasons (CFC says nothing).  CFC gets skewered for changing its mind and hanging Ross out to dry.    Media has no idea what is going on behind closed doors, but that hasnt stopped everyone assuming every thing they say is correct, and potting the Board because of it.

I actually think they have done a good job of a) sticking to the plan and b) not leaking
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 25, 2021, 01:19:28 pm
It's not about the media, it is absolutely about the Board. Look around and tell me which of the other 17 clubs behave this way. Which of the other 17 clubs have a track record as bad as ours ? Which of the other 17 clubs treat their senior coach like this ?

It's a disgrace, and it has nothing to do with the media.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 25, 2021, 01:23:30 pm
This!!

So many people going on about how incompetent the Board is, as they keep changing their minds.  They dont keep changing thier minds - the media's b*llcrap keeps changing.  

Ross Lyon appoints himself coach in the media (CFC says nothing).  Media decides Lyon not suitable for a few reasons (CFC says nothing).  CFC gets skewered for changing its mind and hanging Ross out to dry.    Media has no idea what is going on behind closed doors, but that hasnt stopped everyone assuming every thing they say is correct, and potting the Board because of it.

I actually think they have done a good job of a) sticking to the plan and b) not leaking

The clubs silence is deafening and speaks volumes for its ineptness.
Whilst silence can be a good thing, it must be in context and in the current context that strategy is wrong… as we are witnessing.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 25, 2021, 01:28:24 pm
This!!

So many people going on about how incompetent the Board is, as they keep changing their minds.  They dont keep changing thier minds - the media's b*llcrap keeps changing.  

Ross Lyon appoints himself coach in the media (CFC says nothing).  Media decides Lyon not suitable for a few reasons (CFC says nothing).  CFC gets skewered for changing its mind and hanging Ross out to dry.    Media has no idea what is going on behind closed doors, but that hasnt stopped everyone assuming every thing they say is correct, and potting the Board because of it.

I actually think they have done a good job of a) sticking to the plan and b) not leaking
All of that is fair enough, but you are ignoring a few things that are getting on peoples nerves.

1. This board started a review mid-season which no doubt had an effect on the way the football department ran.
2. This board sacked Barker 2 days after the review was announced (clearly not finished yet) because he said he was not going to be around next year.
3. This board sacked Bolton and appointed Teague.
4. This board sacked Malthouse and appointed Bolton.
5. This board sacked Ratten and appointed Malthouse.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 25, 2021, 01:30:58 pm
It's not about the media, it is absolutely about the Board. Look around and tell me which of the other 17 clubs behave this way. Which of the other 17 clubs have a track record as bad as ours ? Which of the other 17 clubs treat their senior coach like this ?

It's a disgrace, and it has nothing to do with the media.

Just about every club through the decades has had periods as bad, or even worse, than ours. Unfortunately, ours is now and ours is the most recent to fail to adapt/made populist changes driven by fear and ineptitude.

This whole review, which I suspected and said as much previously, could very well expose crevices in our Board and the backlack might just see the demise of many on our Board. Good. Sayers has a helluva job on his hands presently.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 25, 2021, 01:33:45 pm
Wrapped to just learn that Clarko will NOT be coaching us next year. This is from my biased, and subjective mental health perspective. He is doing the right thing by himself and his family.

He may, still, take another less stressful role at another club, of course. Or just go fishing.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 25, 2021, 01:34:51 pm
Just about every club through the decades has had periods as bad, or even worse, than ours. Unfortunately, ours is now and ours is the most recent to fail to adapt/made populist changes driven by fear and ineptitude.

This whole review, which I suspected and said as much previously, could very well expose crevices in our Board and the backlack might just see the demise of many on our Board. Good. Sayers has a helluva job on his hands presently.

I'm still not sure why you think Sayers is separate to the rest of the Board ? He is IMO part of the problem. The only way he isn't part of the problem is if he is some kind of lone voice in the wilderness, the only sensible one there who is constantly outvoted and outmuscled by his more incompetent brethren. Which I somehow doubt.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 25, 2021, 01:40:09 pm
I'm still not sure why you think Sayers is separate to the rest of the Board ? He is IMO part of the problem. The only way he isn't part of the problem is if he is some kind of lone voice in the wilderness, the only sensible one there who is constantly outvoted and outmuscled by his more incompetent brethren. Which I somehow doubt.

I only hold out hope due to his reputation and how he has instituted a more structured process. We'll know very soon, I suspect, if he is the man for the job. He, at least, deserves a go. If what he institutes shortly is a ballsup, then there will no doubt be a spill at the EGM. But for now, patience is the key.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 25, 2021, 01:46:54 pm
I only hold out hope due to his reputation and how he has instituted a more structured process. We'll know very soon, I suspect, if he is the man for the job. He, at least, deserves a go. If what he institutes shortly is a ballsup, then there will no doubt be a spill at the EGM. But for now, patience is the key.

For now sadly, there is no other choice…
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 25, 2021, 02:10:47 pm
Could it be that reality has finally caught up with our board and they are reeling from the shock of that. If so, give ‘em a bit of time to take it all in and get used to it.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Micky0 on August 25, 2021, 02:33:24 pm
Have we seen this vid of Cripps before - seems sincere to me

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/carlton-blues/afl-news-2021-alastair-clarkson-carlton-coach-david-teague-wait-to-be-sacked-leigh-matthews-radio-attack/news-story/fc1513dcb791ca9b01111e617bcf83a8
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: DJC on August 25, 2021, 03:47:34 pm
All of that is fair enough, but you are ignoring a few things that are getting on peoples nerves.

1. This board started a review mid-season which no doubt had an effect on the way the football department ran.
2. This board sacked Barker 2 days after the review was announced (clearly not finished yet) because he said he was not going to be around next year.
3. This board sacked Bolton and appointed Teague.
4. This board sacked Malthouse and appointed Bolton.
5. This board sacked Ratten and appointed Malthouse.

Not entirely correct.

Only Jeanne Pratt was on the board when Ratten was sacked and Malthouse appointed.  Sayers and Mathieson were appointed after those deeds were done and attended their first board meeting in October 2012.  All current board members, with the exception of Chris Townshend, were there when Bolton was sacked.  Townshend took his place on the board shortly before Teague was appointed.

It's probably drawing a long bow to say that the board sacked Barker; that was Liddle's work.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: jeza on August 25, 2021, 04:00:40 pm
Not entirely correct.

Only Jeanne Pratt was on the board when Ratten was sacked and Malthouse appointed.  Sayers and Mathieson were appointed after those deeds were done and attended their first board meeting in October 2012.  All current board members, with the exception of Chris Townshend, were there when Bolton was sacked.  Townshend took his place on the board shortly before Teague was appointed.

It's probably drawing a long bow to say that the board sacked Barker; that was Liddle's work.

The board appoints and holds the reigns on Liddle so the line of responsibility for his decisions is 100% attributable to the board especially for hiring/firing key personnel.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 25, 2021, 04:03:11 pm
DJC & Jezza, all fair enough points, but in Liddlws case you cannot micromanage him
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Inboltswetrust on August 25, 2021, 04:17:48 pm
Vince Loccisano is about to deliver the club with 100 member signatures to force an EGM.  After this, he'll call for a total spill of all board positions and present a rival ticket.  I suggest all members get on board.  This board stinks and the way they've treated Teague and this nonsense about getting Clarko etc.  shows they are a bunch of muppets.  Do we want out of this quagmire, or don't we.  Get behind the movement... on facebook you'll find the 'movement page'- type in Carlton Now.  Here's a link to the organiser:  https://www.facebook.com/CARLTONNOW/videos/2624800751162774
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LoveNavy on August 25, 2021, 04:30:26 pm

My email to our membership dept

Good afternoon.

Having received the following advice from Luke Sayers:

"The Club will take the necessary time required to absorb this review and any outcomes or decisions will be made on the timeframe that is in the best interest of the Club"

I wish to advise that CFC memberships held by our family members are to be considered in the following manner.

Members X, X, & X will take the time necessary to consider the outcomes and decisions made by The Club before renewing our respective memberships.

This means permission to "rollover membership" is to be placed on hold.

Our assessment of the eptitude of the decision making, resultant implementation, and communication of the review, will determine whether or not our long term membership status will continue.

This is in response to what appears to be chronic ineptitude in The Club's decision making. This has resulted in humiliation and embarrassment to be a member of what was once a great sporting club.

If anyone is interested enough to seek opinion from members, I'd welcome the opportunity to discuss further.

Yours faithfully
X

FYI
I received a call from membership staff today, in response to my email.
He asked for my concerns. He then offered a limited response. E.g Highlighted the importance of the review and need to get all information before making decisions.

He then outlined the timeline for membership rollover and that it gives adequate time for me to assess outcomes before renewing.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: DJC on August 25, 2021, 04:37:12 pm
The board appoints and holds the reigns on Liddle so the line of responsibility for his decisions is 100% attributable to the board especially for hiring/firing key personnel.

Barker handed his "resignation" to Lloyd on Monday 7 June.  The board didn't meet until well after then.

While Liddle is responsible to the board, he has the authority to hire and fire staff and he exercised that authority with respect to Barker.  I don't believe that any AFL board would be involved in the hiring and firing of assistant coaches, they simply don't have the expertise.  The exception may be if it was a high-profile individual or part of a succession plan.  Even in that case, they would be guided by the CEO.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 25, 2021, 05:04:49 pm
Not entirely correct.

Only Jeanne Pratt was on the board when Ratten was sacked and Malthouse appointed.  Sayers and Mathieson were appointed after those deeds were done and attended their first board meeting in October 2012.  All current board members, with the exception of Chris Townshend, were there when Bolton was sacked.  Townshend took his place on the board shortly before Teague was appointed.

It's probably drawing a long bow to say that the board sacked Barker; that was Liddle's work.

The board announced the review. Barker was sacked because of the announcement of the review. He wouldn't have said to Liddle/Board they need to find a replacement for him if it wasn't made clear that a review was undertaken.

But the board did hire Liddle so they have blood on their hands one way or another.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: DJC on August 25, 2021, 05:41:40 pm
The board announced the review. Barker was sacked because of the announcement of the review. He wouldn't have said to Liddle/Board they need to find a replacement for him if it wasn't made clear that a review was undertaken.

But the board did hire Liddle so they have blood on their hands one way or another.

How was Barker sacked because of the announcement of the review? He was terminated because he had given notice of his intention to resign at the end of the season.  Teague and Lloyd were apparently comfortable with that but Liddle decided that he had to go.  Perhaps it was to try one of the other assistants in Barker's role or perhaps it was just a cost-cutting exercise.  The only thing that it has to do with the review is coincidence.

The review team must have met with Barker after his departure.  Ignoring such a key figure would be unacceptable.  I suspect Johnny wouldn't have pulled any punches in his responses.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: northernblue on August 25, 2021, 05:46:57 pm
But likewise, for Liddle to march Barker out the door so quickly when MAYBE only him and Sayers knew the review was going to happen left us without a caretaker coach in waiting…
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 25, 2021, 06:01:43 pm
How was Barker sacked because of the announcement of the review? He was terminated because he had given notice of his intention to resign at the end of the season. 
Barker was terminated/sacked 2 days after the review was announced.

What do you put that down to, coincidence??
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 25, 2021, 06:07:18 pm
I'm not sure how it all ties together, but I read that Barker informed the club that he would not be there next year, but was happy to coach the remainder of the season. I believe Teague was also happy / keen for him to see out the season, but apparently the higher ups (I'm guessing Lloyd / Liddle) told him to go there and then.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 25, 2021, 06:32:44 pm
I'm not sure how it all ties together, but I read that Barker informed the club that he would not be there next year, but was happy to coach the remainder of the season. I believe Teague was also happy / keen for him to see out the season, but apparently the higher ups (I'm guessing Lloyd / Liddle) told him to go there and then.

I didn't read anywhere that The TT was happy for him to remain - might have just simply missed that communication.

Not unusual in organisations for someone to announce they won't be remaining in the coming year to be paid out then and there and leave. Happens pretty often to the satisfaction of both parties, once HR stuff has been done.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: DJC on August 25, 2021, 07:22:22 pm
Barker was terminated/sacked 2 days after the review was announced.

What do you put that down to, coincidence??

Yes, it is coincidence.

The review was announced on 7 June.  Barker had given notice prior to that and was asked to bring his departure forward to 7 June.

Teague and Lloyd's support of Barker's intention to stay until the end of the season was widely discussed at the time and was brought up again in the context of Stanton's departure by Sam Edmund recently:
Quote
Barker had the blessing of coach David Teague and football manager Brad Lloyd to coach out the season before leaving, but Barker’s departure was fast-tracked by management [Liddle].

Interestingly, when asked about the review on 7 June, Brad Lloyd's comments included:
Quote
“There are a number of areas that haven’t been up to the level - our skills, our contest work and defending. But we have strong confidence in the senior people around the club, including Teague, both on and off the field.”

Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 25, 2021, 08:02:04 pm
Yes, it is coincidence.

The review was announced on 7 June.  Barker had given notice prior to that and was asked to bring his departure forward to 7 June.

Teague and Lloyd's support of Barker's intention to stay until the end of the season was widely discussed at the time and was brought up again in the context of Stanton's departure by Sam Edmund recently:
Interestingly, when asked about the review on 7 June, Brad Lloyd's comments included:


So he had given notice....sure.

When the review was announced....they TERMINATED HIM....or sacked him.

So clearly the review had something to do with it.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 25, 2021, 08:10:27 pm
Saw this yesterday....GOLD!



https://twitter.com/PointsBet_AU/status/1429985758035681305
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Lods on August 25, 2021, 08:28:46 pm
Saw this yesterday....GOLD!



https://twitter.com/PointsBet_AU/status/1429985758035681305

Funny
I'm streaming The Office at the moment...watching an episode a day. That was the one I watched last night. The guy ends up talking his way out of the sack by making it a bit too hard to get rid of him. :))
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 25, 2021, 08:31:10 pm
Funny
I'm streaming The Office at the moment...watching an episode a day. That was the one I watched last night. The guy ends up talking his way out of the sack by making it a bit too hard to get rid of him. :))
Which episode is it?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Lods on August 25, 2021, 08:37:31 pm
Which episode is it?

Season 2 Episode 5 Halloween
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 26, 2021, 10:35:48 am
Well, that was money well spent. Recommendation : sack the coach lol.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 26, 2021, 10:37:24 am
Well, that was money well spent. Recommendation : sack the coach lol.

Hit list so far...
Murphy/Betts/Casboult
Barker
Stanton
Teague

More to come...
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 26, 2021, 10:43:48 am
More to come...
I can't help but think Walsh is fait accompli.

The hangman becomes the judge! :o
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 26, 2021, 10:46:22 am
I can't help but think Walsh is fait accompli.

The hangman becomes the judge! :o

Quite possibly.

I'll pose this though.....is there anyone better out there that better (and thats currently available.....and yes i know Pratts mantra).
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Adelaideblue on August 26, 2021, 11:21:06 am
Did I mis-read Mr Sayers communication to members last week, that members would be the first to be told the outcome of the review?

Ab
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 26, 2021, 11:34:50 am
Did I mis-read Mr Sayers communication to members last week, that members would be the first to be told the outcome of the review?

Ab


On reflection, and after a deep breath, it is now obvious that Luke S writing to us re members being the first to know the summary of the external independent review is still in play. It has still not been made public, though clearly being acted upon. My impatience perhaps led me to a misinterpretation. Perhaps better to have the review summary come out after major changes to help explain why.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: madbluboy on August 26, 2021, 12:10:51 pm
The Herald Sun can reveal that Teague was heavily wounded by feedback provided to the club’s external reviewers during their exhausting investigation into Carlton’s football department.

It is understood that Teague received support from less than 50 per cent of the players and support staff interviewed by Matthew Pavlich, Geoff Walsh and Graham Lowe.

Teague drove into the club this morning to tell the playing group he had been sacked after two and a half years in the job. He had one more year to run on his contract.

The external panel was given unfettered access to the Blues and left few stones unturned in their search for answers, although Pavlich’s research was conducted via Zoom because he was unable to fly in from Western Australia

The suggested pass mark for coach support was considered to be closer to 80 per cent.

Sources said Teague was stunned when he was informed on Monday when the findings were finally tabled to him.

Teague passionately shot down reports that he had lost relationships with some of his players on Saturday night after his final game in charge.

“It hurt when people said I’d lost relationships with the players,” Teague said.

“That one probably dug a little bit deep because it’s not true.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: dodge on August 26, 2021, 12:13:22 pm
Letter from Pres received...
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: NudeNut on August 26, 2021, 12:13:57 pm
So It's official, got the email from Sayers. The way I'm reading it is apparently everything is all good except for Teague and Amos! Joke of a review.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: madbluboy on August 26, 2021, 12:15:26 pm
Half the players didn't rate him.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: DJC on August 26, 2021, 12:20:02 pm
So, the review found that Judd was correct and we won’t appoint a coach on training wheels again 🙄

I think that the criticism of the gameplan and tactics are justified but surely Lloyd should have been providing feedback to Teague.  There’s no mention of support and development of the coach, something that Mark Maclure and others have identified as a key failure.  We’ll just appointed an experienced hack and let him get on with the job.

I can’t believe that list management gets a tick.  I guess we’ll see more highly paid halfback flankers next season.

Player development didn’t get a mention either 🤔
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 26, 2021, 12:22:27 pm
So, the review found that Judd was correct and we won’t appoint a coach on training wheels again 🙄

I think that the criticism of the gameplan and tactics are justified but surely Lloyd should have been providing feedback to Teague.  There’s no mention of support and development of the coach, something that Mark Maclure and others have identified as a key failure.  We’ll just appointed an experienced hack and let him get on with the job.

I can’t believe that list management gets a tick.  I guess we’ll see more highly paid halfback flankers next season.

Player development didn’t get a mention either 🤔

This is all most concerning.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 26, 2021, 12:23:13 pm
Half the players didn't rate him.
Was that the half that wouldn't chase?

Who is their leader?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 26, 2021, 12:42:07 pm
Let me critique Sayers letter to point out some BS inaccuracies....
Quote
The review has found that while the coaching group had the expertise required, it had been unable to have an effective impact on a playing group that is required to deliver results at the elite level.
So the coaches had the expertise (read: We did not appoint the wrong people previously)
...but they couldn't impact the group (read: Some players were pissed off with hard truths about not defending!)

Quote
While the easier option would have been to wait a further 12 months in the hope these deficiencies would change...
Personally i think the easy option was to sack him rather than back him.

Quote
There is a high level of expertise in the high-performance area, however opportunity exists to clearly define roles and responsibilities.
Thats what happens when you sack someone at the start of the review, people are forced to cover for the bloke that was just sacked and there is no clear roles and responsibilities because they are scrambing to cover your f***ups.

Quote
We were pleased that the final report delivered by the external panel outlined a number of areas our football department had been performing strongly, relating to areas of football strategy, list management, systems and operations, with quality people committed to what they’re doing.
Football strategy - but players didn't understand the game plan, yeah? Which is it??
Systems and operations - but there was not well defined roles, you just told us that.

Quote
Whilst management and staff were found to be capable and committed to the success of Carlton Football Club, and demonstrating a positive mindset, there is a requirement for stronger leadership, more experienced coaching, and improvements in player development.
Hang on, the coaches had the expertise, but not we need more experienced coaches? Oh, because a few players were pissed off??

Name them, shame them and f*** them off.....and start with Cripps.

Quote
Our AFL and AFLW playing groups are now well placed to pursue on-field success in the coming seasons, supported by our incredibly strong off-field position that is underpinned by new facilities and sustainable revenue streams.
Firstly, AFLW.....mass exodus there and nothing that occured from this review changes that. So BS on that.
Secondly, why is our AFL playing group now well placed to purseue on-field success?
We...
1. Don't have a senior coach yet (or did you leave something off your email Luke!)
2. Are down at least 3 assistants on top of not having a senior coach - Barker, Amos and Stanton.
So again, how are we well placed???
and finally...
Nobody has addressed the Lloyd to Collingwood rumours or list building and development (or lack of?) not the medling of our CEO in that area.


Cut through all that crap and you'll find that....
1. We wanted to sack the coach and a few assistants and this was a grandstand way to do that.
2. Everything else is fine and dandy...apart from a few changes at board level which we choose who comes on.
3. Supposedly, no issues with CEO's and list management at the club. I expect everyone to re-sign then. If any of Dow, Stocker, Silvagni.....etc want out, then BS. I expect Lloyd+Liddle to be replaced within the next 12 months.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: blueday on August 26, 2021, 12:48:04 pm
Read between the lines, the coaching group did not have a clear game plan or the ability to communicate and lock in the plan. This would be fatal for any coach, this is not the board forming an opinion, this is the external review findings.  Accept it, a decision has been made. Judge the new board on the decisions they make from this point forward.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 26, 2021, 12:52:56 pm
Read between the lines, the coaching group did not have a clear game plan or the ability to communicate and lock in the plan. This would be fatal for any coach, this is not the board forming an opinion, this is the external review findings.  Accept it, a decision has been made. Judge the new board on the decisions they make from this point forward.

Don’t worry BD, plenty of us will be watching very closely how we go from now on and judging accordingly. The bs will clear and true reality will become apparent  soon enough.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 26, 2021, 12:56:51 pm
So, the review found that Judd was correct and we won’t appoint a coach on training wheels again 🙄

I think that the criticism of the gameplan and tactics are justified but surely Lloyd should have been providing feedback to Teague.  There’s no mention of support and development of the coach, something that Mark Maclure and others have identified as a key failure.  We’ll just appointed an experienced hack and let him get on with the job.

I can’t believe that list management gets a tick.  I guess we’ll see more highly paid halfback flankers next season.

Player development didn’t get a mention either 🤔
The Herald Sun can reveal that Teague was heavily wounded by feedback provided to the club’s external reviewers during their exhausting investigation into Carlton’s football department.

It is understood that Teague received support from less than 50 per cent of the players and support staff interviewed by Matthew Pavlich, Geoff Walsh and Graham Lowe.

Teague drove into the club this morning to tell the playing group he had been sacked after two and a half years in the job. He had one more year to run on his contract.

The external panel was given unfettered access to the Blues and left few stones unturned in their search for answers, although Pavlich’s research was conducted via Zoom because he was unable to fly in from Western Australia

The suggested pass mark for coach support was considered to be closer to 80 per cent.

Sources said Teague was stunned when he was informed on Monday when the findings were finally tabled to him.

Teague passionately shot down reports that he had lost relationships with some of his players on Saturday night after his final game in charge.

“It hurt when people said I’d lost relationships with the players,” Teague said.

“That one probably dug a little bit deep because it’s not true.
Players might be asking for Teague back when they get a dose of Ross Lyon methodology, the bar is going to be raised a lot higher in terms of what he expects, injuries etc wont be an excuse for lack of effort etc etc.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 26, 2021, 01:02:24 pm
New Board Members, new senior coach, new assistants...

The Terrier to narrow his focus to his area of responsibility.

I wouldn't get too comfy if I was Lloyd or Liddle.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 26, 2021, 01:04:25 pm
The Terrier to narrow his focus to his area of responsibility.
I suspect he'll go, he came to us to get away from that!
 
I wouldn't get too comfy if I was Lloyd or Liddle.
Lloyd I can't comment on, Liddle must be the author of the report based on it's content.

I reckon Sayers must have been too busy pissing it up with the Fox family and Dan down Portsea and Sorrento to author that rubbish, then he's rolled in with the hangover and said can't be fecked just tell me where to sign!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 26, 2021, 01:04:40 pm
Read between the lines, the coaching group did not have a clear game plan or the ability to communicate and lock in the plan. This would be fatal for any coach, this is not the board forming an opinion, this is the external review findings.  Accept it, a decision has been made. Judge the new board on the decisions they make from this point forward.
Did the coach not have a clear game plan?
OR
Did he was he not able to lock in a plan?

I'm going to try a few things which may or may not work, bare with me.
IMO a simplistic view of our gameplan is to back our defenders in to beat their opponents in one on one contests, move the ball quickly through the middle to our leading KP forwards. Be strong at the contested ball through the guts and basically play with attacking flare to keep the ball going forward and locking it in deep forward when we get it there.

OK, so we've seen that basically work against top teams...albeit just falling short because we are not as talented as the top teams yet.

Now, at the start of the year, we couldn't win the contested ball because we were playing a guy with a broken back in the middle....and who couldn't chase. Our defenders did remarkably well despite this. So less defensive pressure in the middle = more pressure on defenders.

That aside, we started turning things around in the middle and winning contested possessions...then our rucks broke down.
So less defensive pressure in the middle = more pressure on defenders.

We then were unable to lock the ball up forward as well as we used to because we had no real targets there as our KPPs were sitting in the injury room. Their defenders were able to sit in the dangerous spots and not have to worry about defending a player. This allowed for quick slingshots out of our forwardline.
So less defensive pressure in the middle = more pressure on defenders.

Ultimately, our defenders broke down due to sheer weight of numbers. Without checking, i reckon our defenders had more 1 on 1 contests than any other side.

Further to the above, due to injuries (and also lack of VFL....over 2 years!) to teach players new roles....and the actual gameplan(!)...players were asked to play in multiple new roles that were foreign to them. Hands up who thought Silvagni would be our #1 ruck at times this year? Kennedy, Silvagni, Martin as our FF? Kemp as our CHB?

The whole thing is one large clusterf***. I'm not doubting the issues around the game plan, but there are many valid reasons why this is the case.

Example questions...
1. Do you understand the game plan?
2. Are you 100% clear on what your role is on game day?
*no follow up question*

IMO, first answer is yes. Second answer could be 'no'. Rather than leaving it at that as "Why?" and you might find its because throughout my 2 years under teague i never thought i'd need to understand how to play FF/ruck/chb/whatever.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: WASurfer on August 26, 2021, 01:05:26 pm
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/08/26/carlton-president-makes-bold-finals-prediction-hours-after-parting-ways-with/

Have we learned nothing?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 26, 2021, 01:06:10 pm
Liddle must be the author of the report based on it's content!
He oversaw the report.


The negative directed at him somehow made its way to the shredder after completion, but before being delivered to the board.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 26, 2021, 01:08:59 pm
Have we learned nothing?
Groundhog Day.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTd1D93X0tuv8QKoOoNz8jwD-2ezMFnlwZ-tA&usqp=CAU)
Somebody is taking the piss!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 26, 2021, 01:12:10 pm
https://imgflip.com/i/5ktxpx
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 26, 2021, 01:15:01 pm
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/08/26/carlton-president-makes-bold-finals-prediction-hours-after-parting-ways-with/

Have we learned nothing?

I guess Lyon will at least be in no doubt as to the level of expectation.

I recall of the Apple senior executives back in the early days of the company, said something like this about Steve Jobs :"Jobs could see that horizon out there, a thousand miles out. But he could never see the details of each little mile that had to be covered to get there........................"

It's all very well to make bold statements and have grand ambitions, but if you live in loopyland you'll keep being disappointed.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 26, 2021, 01:19:20 pm
Ross Lyon!

BigH will be lucky to get 3 lead up marking attempts a game, most of Riewoldt's big marks either came on the wing or running back with the flight after pushing up hard to defend.

ne thing for sure, with so few opportunities he'll want to greatly improve his scoring efficiency!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Slowhand on August 26, 2021, 01:21:26 pm
So Lloyd and Russell survive. 

TT and Amos get the arse.  Power survived ?…

New coach will have to bring in own Assistants.



Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 26, 2021, 01:22:17 pm
Harry will be one of the first asking for a trade IMO.

Note to Rossco : you only get one Nick Riewoldt in your lifetime, and your one occasion is used up.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 26, 2021, 01:24:50 pm
So Lloyd and Russell survive.
So far, under a change of focus, a better defined role ..................... for now!

Russell won't stick it out if we send him back to the bench press, he left the Dawks to get away from the hands on and become more of a manager. He'll accept the role for now, until he finds a better offer.

He is like an old Trady being asked to get back on the tools, sure they can, for a little while!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 26, 2021, 01:27:35 pm
https://imgflip.com/i/5ktxpx
Not sure if people can see that or not, but this is what its based on...

Phase 1: Sack Teague.
Phase 2: ?
Phase 3: Finals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: madbluboy on August 26, 2021, 01:38:00 pm
So far, under a change of focus, a better defined role ..................... for now!

Russell won't stick it out if we send him back tot he bench press, he left the Dawks to get away from the hands on and become more of a manager. He'll accept he role for now, until he finds a better offer.

He is like an old Trady being asked to get back on the tools, sure they can, for a little while!

Not true on Russell. Actually the complete opposite.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 26, 2021, 01:39:00 pm
Review missed the main issue. Players again got away with their crap, unmotivated 20 year long non-efforts while the coach copped it in the neck. Means nothing will change. By the end of year 2 the players will jog through the motions again.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Baggers on August 26, 2021, 01:44:15 pm
Did I miss something or did C Bruce survive... for now?

Important that L Sayers and C Liddle both acknowledged some degree of responsibility for past and recent failures. Liddle admitted the footy dept was performing below par on his watch.

Found it interesting that Liddle talked finals but Sayers talked, winning games, winning finals & winning premierships. Raise your expectations, Cain.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 26, 2021, 01:46:22 pm
Review missed the main issue. Players again got away with their crap, unmotivated 20 year long non-efforts while the coach copped it in the neck. Means nothing will change. By the end of year 2 the players will jog through the motions again.

This will be Lyon’s greatest challenge. When he starts getting heavy with offending players they will stab him in the back and the whole cycle starts again.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 26, 2021, 01:48:00 pm
Not true on Russell. Actually the complete opposite.
I realise this is the exact opposite of what the Dawks claimed, they claimed when Russell left it was because his role was/had changed and he wasn't happy. But I read that as a bit of rock throwing, what does Puopy think?

FWIW, what I've written is what Russell told us when he first arrived, he stated he wanted an opportunity for wider development that the Dawks couldn't or wouldn't offer. Perhaps it is crap, just an excuse he put out there for moving across on bigger dollars!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 26, 2021, 02:02:35 pm
Another day at Carlton

(https://c.tenor.com/yt2hphiZx5AAAAAC/pulp-fiction-bathroom.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/gDFIjjK.gif)
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 26, 2021, 02:32:30 pm
Accountability comes from the top down - there's little point in whining about players not being accountable when the Board has no accountability whatsoever. Learned behavior. Players, Board, High Performance, Marketing etc. all off the hook because the coach is the designated sacrificial lamb.

Waste of money.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 26, 2021, 02:42:53 pm
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/carlton-blues/afl-news-2021-carlton-expects-to-play-finals-in-2022-says-president-luke-sayers-david-teague-sacked-press-conference/news-story/f6b64133c267c5497b09e7f60f4ba8ab

“We’re looking for a coach and we’re looking for leaders here at Carlton that will leave no stone unturned in going after absolutely everything to win games of footy.”

I see.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 26, 2021, 03:40:03 pm
Whatever it takes eh!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 26, 2021, 03:45:55 pm
Whatever it takes eh!

Lol. He did say "absolutely everything" and our players are easily brushed aside, so...........................
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 26, 2021, 03:52:47 pm
(https://c.tenor.com/jItPfRyFV7EAAAAC/oops-push-button.gif)
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 26, 2021, 04:01:19 pm
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/08/26/blues-president-responds-to-matthews-scathing-criticism/

The article is a yawn, but these bits are worth noting :

Sayers said there will be no further staff departures after assistant coaches Dale Amos and Brent Stanton joined Teague through the exit door at Ikon Park.

Blues CEO Cain Liddle and Head of Football Brad Lloyd will remain in their respective roles.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 26, 2021, 04:10:04 pm
It’s becoming increasingly embarrassing to be  Blues supporter.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 26, 2021, 04:10:58 pm
Liddle and Lloyd surviving wont take us anywhere.....will continue to interfere in recruiting etc and both deserve the chop after SOS was booted for political reasons. Weak as cats piss review that wasnt really a review it was just a cover for sack David Teague, have zero confidence in any so called process we undertake and why bother with this pantomime of looking for a new coach.
Half the list should be booted too if its true they were not happy with Teague, a bloke who had their back as the continued to put up insipid lack of effort performances yet he came out every week and said he still had faith in them.
What an embarrassing half a season its been, laughing stock of the AFL and David Teague is better off out of the place and I hope he gets a job at Richmond and has some success. Decent man screwed over from the management all the way down to the playing group. The players deserve Ross Lyon, they wont know how good DT was to them until they get a dose of Lyons old world footy ideology and expectations.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 26, 2021, 04:13:12 pm
Liddle and Lloyd surviving wont take us anywhere.....will continue to interfere in recruiting etc and both deserve the chop after SOS was booted. Weak as cats piss review that wasnt really a review it was just a cover for sack David Teague, have zero confidence in any so called process we undertake and why bother with this pantomime of looking for a new coach.
Half the list should be booted too if its true they were not happy with Teague, a bloke who had their back as the continued to put up insipid lack of effort performances yet he came out every week and said he still had faith in them.
What an embarrassing half a season its been, laughing stock of the AFL and David Teague is better off out of the place and I hope he gets a job at Richmond and has some success. Decent man screwed over from the management all the way down to the playing group. The players deserve Ross Lyon, they wont know how good DT was to them until they get a dose of Lyons old world footy ideology and expectations.

Very well said sir.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 26, 2021, 04:20:28 pm
The players deserve Ross Lyon, they wont know how good DT was to them until they get a dose of Lyons old world footy ideology and expectations.
Yes, 100% agreed.

As I mentioned when the review started, some people ( players, officials and fans ) need to be very wary of getting what they have asked for!

Imagine those who refused to chase getting Ross the Boss as a coach, major list changes coming, nowhere to hide?

If Lyon wants Cripps gone, or if Cripps wants Lyon out, who wins that battle twelve months from now? What will fans or the marketing department think then?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 26, 2021, 04:24:27 pm
Yes, 100% agreed.

As I mentioned when the review started, some people ( players, officials and fans ) need to be very wary of getting what they have asked for!

Imagine those who refused to chase getting Ross the Boss as a coach, major list changes coming, nowhere to hide?

If Lyon wants Cripps gone, or if Cripps wants Lyon out, who wins that battle twelve months from now?

Don't wait. Send Cripps packing now.

Fresh start, new coach, new captains.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 26, 2021, 04:26:10 pm
Don't wait. Send Cripps packing now.

Fresh start, new coach, new captains.
As much as I hate to admit it, it may well be the only way forward from this mess, and as I've posted before it is not without risk, but that doesn't mean it is not the right direction to go in.

I can't accept that the report of a dissatisfied playing list torpedoed the coach if that dissatisfied list is made up of spuds and list cloggers. If the also-rans were the problem you cut half the list before you'd cut Weiters, BigH, Walsh, Cripps, De Koning, etc., etc.. So it has to be the case that some significant talent torpedoed the coach, and that is therefore a massive problem if the playing list remains configured as it currently is. Fans do not appreciate what this means, they aren't thinking deeply enough about it, they look at players through rose coloured glasses.

I think I wrote this the other day, "There is a rotten Apple Jim!" it's a line I pinched from a movie, it has to be the case, and we need it removed before the whole lot goes off! Changing coaches won't make a shred of difference.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: capcom on August 26, 2021, 04:27:01 pm
Feel like a green bay packers supporter and wearing a bag over my head.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Professer E on August 26, 2021, 04:28:14 pm
100%

Sayers is just another in a long line of BS artists to "run" the place.  Tasmania in four years
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: jeza on August 26, 2021, 04:36:20 pm
Don't wait. Send Cripps packing now.

Fresh start, new coach, new captains.

We should probably delist Doc too right. And then there's the vice-captains - we can't have them hanging around like bad smells. So I guess that's Weitering gone. Let's do this properly right?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Micky0 on August 26, 2021, 04:39:32 pm
🤔
Sayers goes to Sydney, openly asking players allegedly about how things are - end of may.

Review announced shortly thereafter.

After much procrastination, Cripps signs a 6 year deal a few weeks after that.

So - as some have alluded to - the review was a rouse to move on DT.  Cripps and DT seem to have had some fracture in their relationship. Cripps get signed up out of the blue to be a blue for life.

I love Cripps and don’t want him to go - he has value for us big time no doubt about it. Don’t see him as a tool.  Maybe Dt wasn’t the right fit, ans I could stomach that, If the board hadnt made such a bloody mess of doing this right. Also I hate Lyon so that will never work for me.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 26, 2021, 04:40:04 pm
As much as I hate to admit it, it may well be the only way forward from this mess, and as I've posted before it is not without risk, but that doesn't mean it is not the right direction to go in.

I can't accept that the report of a dissatisfied playing list torpedoed the coach if that dissatisfied list is made up of spuds and list cloggers. If the also-rans were the problem you cut half the list before you'd cut Weiters, BigH, Walsh, Cripps, De Koning, etc., etc.. So it has to be the case that some significant talent torpedoed the coach, and that is therefore a massive problem if the playing list remains configured as it currently is. Fans do not appreciate what this means, they aren't thinking deeply enough about it, they look at players through rose coloured glasses.

I think I wrote this the other day, "There is a rotten Apple Jim!" it's a line I pinched from a movie, it has to be the case, and we need it removed before the whole lot goes off! Changing coaches won't make a shred of difference.

According to one of those 3 Fox articles I linked earlier :

Teague’s camp believes key figures played pivotal roles in his sacking. They point to Stephen Silvagni – a long-time critic of CEO Cain Liddle and footy boss Brad Lloyd’s appointment - and his close friendship with board member Craig Mathieson. They argue that Marc Murphy, frustrated at the way his career finished, was one of several players to openly express disenchantment with the coach in the back half of the season to other players.

Jack Silvagni is now likely to stay on a multi-year deal, but the club had been privately hopeful he would find a new home in the trade period until recently, despite improved vastly form. There was a suspicion from the Teague camp that he was on a similar wavelength to Murphy.

Co-captain Patrick Cripps publicly defended his coach earlier this week, but behind the scenes he was aware of grumblings from teammates around the coach. Fair or otherwise, Teague said he was hurt by suggestions he had lost the playing group.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 26, 2021, 04:44:13 pm
We should probably delist Doc too right. And then there's the vice-captains - we can't have them hanging around like bad smells. So I guess that's Weitering gone. Let's do this properly right?
Thats the emotion speaking.

I've gone through this before, but let me try again. Tell me which points you disagree with and why.
1. Cripps' body is breaking down on a relatively regular basis.
2. Cripps' does not run defensively, and if he does, he couldn't catch a cold.
3. Cripps' kicking skills make Levi look like Darren Jarman.
4. Cripps' performances since he's become captain are more about him, than helping his teammates.
5. Cripps' value is about as high as it could be right now.
6. Cripps' value in another 12 months of poor performance could see a dramatic fall in his value.
7. Cripps' is a bull. But even bulls need to be put out to pasture eventually. Cash in now.
8. Cripps' has done plenty for our club, and i thank him for it, but the best thing he could do for the club now is to walk out the door and send a couple 1st round picks back in the process.

So, tell me which one of those 8 you disagree with.
Notice none of them have anything to do with rumoured coaching issues. Which means it is not necessarily about his standing within the team, but more with him and his performance. Thus, their is no correlation with him and the other leaders you brought up.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 26, 2021, 04:44:31 pm
If we believe that article, Cripps was a sounding board and merely "aware" of grumblings, without necessarily being a contributor.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 26, 2021, 04:47:02 pm
According to one of those 3 Fox articles I linked earlier :

Teague’s camp believes key figures played pivotal roles in his sacking. They point to Stephen Silvagni – a long-time critic of CEO Cain Liddle and footy boss Brad Lloyd’s appointment - and his close friendship with board member Craig Mathieson. They argue that Marc Murphy, frustrated at the way his career finished, was one of several players to openly express disenchantment with the coach in the back half of the season to other players.
Yes, I'm aware of the factional stuff within the club, but think about what this means if you believe that is true about SOS. For a start how can they keep his boy?

btw., You know I had warned about this argy bargy, the SOS / Lyon Coterie, if we get Lyon there will be another round of shizen hitting the fan. Liddle might get the bum rush along with Lloyd. I know right now fans do not see it, but it's almost inevitable that if we get Lyon there is a fall out with Liddle and Lloyd. Which to me is a pity because Liddle on a commercial perspective is A-Grade.

So what does Liddle and the club do to head this off if the club appoints Lyon, it would be prudent of Liddle and Lloyd to remove Jack, leaving Stephen toothless.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 26, 2021, 04:48:11 pm
If we believe that article, Cripps was a sounding board and merely "aware" of grumblings, without necessarily being a contributor.
It's the captain's job to smooth the waters and unite the squad, for Cripps and Doc it's a fail as big as any in AFL history, well maybe not as bad as CheatsFC, however to the point if they retain their position we will be a laughing stock!

Fans aren't thinking about what the media will do next, they have found the scabs, now it's picking time!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 26, 2021, 04:49:23 pm
A very simple and much cheaper solution to all this is let the players coach themselves. Make one of them a player coach and just be done with it. It's old school. Big Nick can give us a few tips. Do it for one season, and if it doesn't work, get Clarkson in 2023.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 26, 2021, 04:50:42 pm
It's the captain's job to smooth the waters and unite the squad, for Cripps and Doc it's a fail as big as any in AFL history, to the point if they retain their position we will be a laughing stock!

Fans aren't thinking about what the media will do next, they have found the scabs, now it's picking time!
Exactly, beat me to it.

The captain is kinda the coaches 2IC. Cripps hung the coach out to dry.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 26, 2021, 04:51:21 pm
Yes, I'm aware of the factional stuff within the club, but think about what this means if you believe that is true about SOS. For a start how can they keep his boy?

btw., You know I had warned about this argy bargy, the SOS / Lyon Coterie, if we get Lyon there will be another round of shizen hitting the fan. Liddle might get the bum rush along with Lloyd. I know right now fans do not see it, but it's almost inevitable that if we get Lyon there is a fall out with Liddle and Lloyd. Which to me is a pity because Liddle on a commercial perspective is A-Grade.

So if the club appoints Lyon, it would be prudent of Liddle and Lloyd to remove Jack, leaving Stephen toothless.

So Lyon could be the Trojan Horse for an eventual takeover.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 26, 2021, 04:52:36 pm
So Lyon could be the Trojan Horse for an eventual takeover.

Yep, it's starting to feel like a turf war.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Professer E on August 26, 2021, 04:52:53 pm
Marc wasn't happy how he was carried to 300....shakes head.   And these bozos used that as part of the input data for this all singing all dancing review.   F-tards,  the lot of them. What a joke.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 26, 2021, 04:53:06 pm
A very simple and much cheaper solution to all this is let the players coach themselves.
Lord of the Flys.
 
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 26, 2021, 04:54:24 pm
So Lyon could be the Trojan Horse for an eventual takeover.
This sort of paranoia will be circulating within the club, it doesn't even need external influences to gain traction.

Some of this was set in motion when the original SOS decision was made, because of how badly that was handled and how the issue was framed.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 26, 2021, 04:54:35 pm
Exactly, beat me to it.

The captain is kinda the coaches 2IC. Cripps hung the coach out to dry.

Players must be looking over their shoulders wondering who they can/can’t trust.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 26, 2021, 04:55:37 pm
So Lyon could be the Trojan Horse for an eventual takeover.

You reckon Lyon would get the ability to bring his own assistants over.
Dare him to make SOS one.  >:D
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 26, 2021, 04:57:00 pm
You reckon Lyon would get the ability to bring his own assistants over.
Dare him to make SOS one.  >:D
If they appoint Lyon and tell him no he can't choose certain assistants, can you imagine the chaos that would pursue!
 
On the silly side, what if Bolton applies and Lyon should choose him?

There are so so many ways to destabilise this situation, it's almost comical how it has been constructed.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 26, 2021, 05:00:29 pm
You reckon Lyon would get the ability to bring his own assistants over.
Dare him to make SOS one.  >:D

Maybe but Lyon seems pretty desperate to get a senior coaching gig to me so not sure he would drive a very hard bargain immediately. Maybe he’ll to grind down the enemies over time. I can’t imagine SOS’s enemies being too keen on Lyon so there’s a rift straight off the bat.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 26, 2021, 05:03:25 pm
Players must be looking over their shoulders wondering who they can/can’t trust.
Remember the rumours about some players questioning whether players were really injured or not towards the end of the year?

Cripps pulled out on match day against Port did he not.
Then snatched it against the Giants in the last week.
He was a late out against the Pies in R18 as well.

For a bloke who played with injections for most of the 1st half of the year, he certainly seemed to lose his pain tolerance once the review was started. Coincidence?

Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Professer E on August 26, 2021, 05:06:49 pm
Yep.   Just because he's contracted dont  automatically assume he'll be lining up for us R1 2021.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 26, 2021, 05:09:06 pm
Maybe but Lyon seems pretty desperate to get a senior coaching gig to me so not sure he would drive a very hard bargain immediately. Maybe he’ll to grind down the enemies over time. I can’t imagine SOS’s enemies being too keen on Lyon so there’s a rift straight off the bat.
Yep...Lyon will pick his own crew and I reckon SOS might cool his heels until Liddle is gone, IMO the latter will go when he gets a better job offer.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 26, 2021, 05:11:40 pm
Remember the rumours about some players questioning whether players were really injured or not towards the end of the year?

Cripps pulled out on match day against Port did he not.
Then snatched it against the Giants in the last week.
He was a late out against the Pies in R18 as well.

For a bloke who played with injections for most of the 1st half of the year, he certainly seemed to lose his pain tolerance once the review was started. Coincidence?

And he held out for a long time before re-signing on a long term deal with a pay cut. Wonder what possible undertakings were given to him by the club and could have also been in play?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: rocky on August 26, 2021, 05:28:39 pm
Can't believe I'm hearing all this anti-Cripps noise. Unfortunately, I have absolutely no inside knowledge about;
1. How his body is
2. What he thinks about anyone

So, I'm willing to give the champ the benefit of the doubt after a couple of lean years based on his output which includes ;
Leigh Matthews Trophy: 2019
2× All-Australian team: 2018, 2019
3× John Nicholls Medal: 2015, 2018, 2019
I think he deserves it
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 26, 2021, 05:44:12 pm
Can't believe I'm hearing all this anti-Cripps noise. Unfortunately, I have absolutely no inside knowledge about;
1. How his body is
2. What he thinks about anyone

So, I'm willing to give the champ the benefit of the doubt after a couple of lean years based on his output which includes ;
Leigh Matthews Trophy: 2019
2× All-Australian team: 2018, 2019
3× John Nicholls Medal: 2015, 2018, 2019
I think he deserves it

Rocky, this is the type of speculation that flows when people lose trust in an organisation. I hope it all turns out to be just that, speculation.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 26, 2021, 06:04:28 pm
Can't believe I'm hearing all this anti-Cripps noise. Unfortunately, I have absolutely no inside knowledge about;
1. How his body is
2. What he thinks about anyone

So, I'm willing to give the champ the benefit of the doubt after a couple of lean years based on his output which includes ;
Leigh Matthews Trophy: 2019
2× All-Australian team: 2018, 2019
3× John Nicholls Medal: 2015, 2018, 2019
I think he deserves it
Its not 'anti-cripps', it is pro-carlton.

Look at the 8 points i made on the last page, and tell me where i am wrong.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 26, 2021, 06:10:58 pm
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/carlton-blues/afl-2021-david-teague-sacked-plea-from-carlton-players-to-keep-coach-who-spoke-up-blues-players-tom-morris-news/news-story/260c34af7721b49ee66fa443468aa5ae?fbclid=IwAR3Na8d_snFc8EbXvCB6NhnzPxE_gzOlAv6vETpDmMx8VZUIR7VHn_eWc5k
Quote
Among the players to voice their support were the Curnow brothers, Sam Walsh, Harry McKay, Jacob Weitering and Nic Newman.
I don't mind pointing out that they are all very much team players.

Quote
Adam Saad, Zac Williams, Caleb Marchbank, Liam Stocker, Liam Jones and Tom De Koning are also believed to have spoken favourably of Teague in the review.

Quote
It’s unclear whether Patrick Cripps also voiced his support behind closed doors to Liddle, as he did in public.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: rocky on August 26, 2021, 06:18:35 pm
Its not 'anti-cripps', it is pro-carlton.
Look at the 8 points i made on the last page, and tell me where i am wrong.
Give me a break Krudd. As if I could be bothered in engaging in one of those Tête-à-tête's and as if you'd ever admit you were wrong. But just in summary, he is prone to break down, he's too slow, he can't kick, he's selfish but he's still worth something to another club so let's get rid of him. Yeah, as I said earlier, I'm not ready to write him off just yet. 
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: capcom on August 26, 2021, 06:25:24 pm
Give me a break Krudd. As if I could be bothered in engaging in one of those Tête-à-tête's and as if you'd ever admit you were wrong. But just in summary, he is prone to break down, he's too slow, he can't kick, he's selfish but he's still worth something to another club so let's get rid of him. Yeah, as I said earlier, I'm not ready to write him off just yet. 

It in a nutshell
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 26, 2021, 06:33:27 pm
Give me a break Krudd. As if I could be bothered in engaging in one of those Tête-à-tête's and as if you'd ever admit you were wrong. But just in summary, he is prone to break down, he's too slow, he can't kick, he's selfish but he's still worth something to another club so let's get rid of him. Yeah, as I said earlier, I'm not ready to write him off just yet. 
Thats the thing, there is no right or wrong. Its an opinion.
If you disagree with any of it, be my guest.

So far, the only 'pro' to keeping him is what he has done in the past.
Nobody questions any of my 'cons'.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: madbluboy on August 26, 2021, 06:36:29 pm
Don't wait. Send Cripps packing now.

Fresh start, new coach, new captains.

Agreed. Trade Cripps for Cerra. Better player for less money.

Make Weitering captain, Walsh vice.

Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: madbluboy on August 26, 2021, 06:39:02 pm
Can't believe I'm hearing all this anti-Cripps noise. Unfortunately, I have absolutely no inside knowledge about;
1. How his body is
2. What he thinks about anyone

So, I'm willing to give the champ the benefit of the doubt after a couple of lean years based on his output which includes ;
Leigh Matthews Trophy: 2019
2× All-Australian team: 2018, 2019
3× John Nicholls Medal: 2015, 2018, 2019
I think he deserves it

Long time ago now. He is now 3 years past his prime.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 26, 2021, 06:41:11 pm
I'm a bit slow on the uptake, but I understand exactly why Pickering took aim at Cripps, even if the comments weren't all that heavy.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Micky0 on August 26, 2021, 06:44:57 pm
I'm a bit slow on the uptake, but I understand exactly why Pickering took aim at Cripps, even if the comments weren't all that heavy.
?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Micky0 on August 26, 2021, 06:46:25 pm
I don't mind pointing out that they are all very much team players.

The club are not going to take the side of just Cripps over DT in opposition to Weiters, McKay, Walsh, Curnow etc etc! No way.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: PaulP on August 26, 2021, 06:48:03 pm
?

I think Cripps was either undermining or at odds with Teague, and may have provided a lot of negative feedback in the review. Just my thoughts, with (as is usual on a footy forum) not much facts to back it up.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: laj on August 26, 2021, 06:48:33 pm
Looks like an EGM is going to happen. Papers have gone in.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: rocky on August 26, 2021, 07:02:27 pm
Thats the thing, there is no right or wrong. Its an opinion.
If you disagree with any of it, be my guest.
So far, the only 'pro' to keeping him is what he has done in the past.
Nobody questions any of my 'cons'.
Well, if just an opinion then why are you asking me to look at the 8 points you made and tell you where you were wrong? For that matter why should anyone question any of your 'cons', given it's just an opinion? My thoughts are just that and I don't need validation or invalidation.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: cookie2 on August 26, 2021, 07:05:36 pm
I think Cripps was either undermining or at odds with Teague, and may have provided a lot of negative feedback in the review. Just my thoughts, with (as is usual on a footy forum) not much facts to back it up.

I don’t know either Paul, but I share those suspicions.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: crashlander on August 26, 2021, 07:08:40 pm
Looks like an EGM is going to happen. Papers have gone in.
Not what we need as a club. We need stability, and quickly. Any EGM is going to hurt that.
I also wonder what our 4 new board members will be feeling. They didn't have anything to do with David Teague's demise.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 26, 2021, 07:36:07 pm
Well, if just an opinion then why are you asking me to look at the 8 points you made and tell you where you were wrong? For that matter why should anyone question any of your 'cons', given it's just an opinion? My thoughts are just that and I don't need validation or invalidation.
Opinions can be swayed once you see the other side of the argument.
If you can't find fault in the other side of the argument, perhaps the faults lie in your own opinion.

Look, i don't care what your opinion is, back it up to the hilt. But any opinion i put forth, i provide (IMO) some compelling arguments to back that up.

There are quite a few others who seem to agree with me, so are we all crazy?

A few weeks ago, i would've been on your side of the fence. However, the more i hear, the more i think about it, i can't help but think its very simple. The benefits far out weigh the negatives.

If nothing else, it provides a clear path to Weitering as Captain.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LoveNavy on August 26, 2021, 09:22:24 pm
Today. I am not Carlton 😵
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 26, 2021, 10:13:58 pm
Can't believe I'm hearing all this anti-Cripps noise. Unfortunately, I have absolutely no inside knowledge about;
1. How his body is
2. What he thinks about anyone

So, I'm willing to give the champ the benefit of the doubt after a couple of lean years based on his output which includes ;
Leigh Matthews Trophy: 2019
2× All-Australian team: 2018, 2019
3× John Nicholls Medal: 2015, 2018, 2019
I think he deserves it

At the same age, here is someone else stats....
1x AFLPA Best first year player
1x AFLCA Champion player of the year:
1× All-Australian team:
1× John Nicholls Medal:
1x International rules player
Captain

8 years later and another 135 games added and only 1x B+F and 1xAA was added to that list....and everyone would agree his career was downhill from there.

That player.....Marc Murphy.
Which player was better? First half of career Murphy or 2nd half?
Given Cripps is a much more inside player with more injuries and a shorter career expected....why would you expect him to be better in the 2nd half of his career?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: Micky0 on August 26, 2021, 10:20:15 pm
At the same age, here is someone else stats....
1x AFLPA Best first year player
1x AFLCA Champion player of the year:
1× All-Australian team:
1× John Nicholls Medal:
1x International rules player
Captain

8 years later and another 135 games added and only 1x B+F and 1xAA was added to that list....and everyone would agree his career was downhill from there.

That player.....Marc Murphy.
Which player was better? First half of career Murphy or 2nd half?
Given Cripps is a much more inside player with more injuries and a shorter career expected....why would you expect him to be better in the 2nd half of his career?

And did we protect Murph or did we let his body become banged up too? So rather than put proper help around Cripps, we’re going to send him off?

Like DT, Cripps needs support! Let’s put that in place and see how he goes.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: rocky on August 26, 2021, 10:31:29 pm
Which player was better? First half of career Murphy or 2nd half?
Given Cripps is a much more inside player with more injuries and a shorter career expected....why would you expect him to be better in the 2nd half of his career?
Errrr, is that a rhetorical question, because I thought you said earlier you didn't care what my opinion was and as I said earlier, I'm not interested in the tit for tat thing. MY OPINION is we don't get rid of the champ. That's it. Nothing you put forward to the contrary will change MY OPINION.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 26, 2021, 10:36:00 pm
And did we protect Murph or did we let his body become banged up too? So rather than put proper help around Cripps, we’re going to send him off?

Like DT, Cripps needs support! Let’s put that in place and see how he goes.
Cripps' body is already shot. Don't repeat the mistakes of the past.

Walsh is the future. Don't ask him to bust his gut chasing Cripps' man too, find a bloke who can and will chase their own man.
Protect him!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 26, 2021, 10:38:00 pm
Errrr, is that a rhetorical question, because I thought you said earlier you didn't care what my opinion was and as I said earlier, I'm not interested in the tit for tat thing. MY OPINION is we don't get rid of the champ. That's it. Nothing you put forward to the contrary will change MY OPINION.
I'm not interested in changing your opinion.

I'm interested in hearing why people like you who share that opinion do. What are the reasons.

So far all i've gathered is.....I like Cripps because Cripps is good.
Is that all there is?
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: pew2 on August 27, 2021, 03:53:33 pm
During the year i wanted to (before he signed ) trade cripps for 2 first round picks,believing that his body cant match it any more with modern game and i hope with the review findings some players might be moved on and traded.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 27, 2021, 03:58:37 pm
I have grave doubts any coach can construct a game plan under the current 6-6-6 and Stand rule that will slow down play enough for Cripps to keep up and be fresh enough to play like he did 3 seasons ago, even if he does overcome all his injuries.

It's not that Cripps can't play, it's that fans are not considering the effects of the rule changes, they are massive and have more of a negative impact on Cripps than perhaps any other player in the AFL.

So the only alternative for Cripps is to become more a KPP marking target to make use of his size, but so far he has struggled to take and hold marks. Let's face it he is not great overhead and given his entire playing career it is probably unfair to expect him to become instantly better, marking has never been a big part of his game which is the irony of what he has to do now. He isn't at all natural flying for contested marks!

He can buy himself some time and space by getting better on his off-side, all players can, but it's a skill that is greatly diminished in modern AFL, all this outside the boot rubbish is bullcrap!

Finally, for a guy who wins so much contested footy, he's quite ordinary by hand, hopefully Diesel gets in a sorts that out and has him punching the pill like he's breaking through a brick wall before next season! Cripps is nearly a 200cm monster, he should handball like Fogarty kicks!
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 27, 2021, 04:03:28 pm
I have grave doubts any coach can construct a game plan under the current 6-6-6 and Stand rule that will slow down play enough for Cripps to keep up and be fresh enough to play like he did 3 seasons ago, even if he does overcome all his injuries.

It's not that Cripps can't play, it's that fans are not considering the effects of the rule changes, they are massive and have more of an negative impact on Cripps than perhaps any other player in the AFL.
Thanks for bringing that up. I was meant to add that to my 'list' of things working against Cripps.

If the bloke could kick, it wouldn't be an issue as much because we could put him forward, but i'd prefer Casboult to Cripps shooting at goal.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: LP on August 27, 2021, 04:10:12 pm
Thanks for bringing that up. I was meant to add that to my 'list' of things working against Cripps.

If the bloke could kick, it wouldn't be an issue as much because we could put him forward, but i'd prefer Casboult to Cripps shooting at goal.
His lack of pace is a massive problem, because if you stand him in F50 or D50 his opponents of similar size nearly all run off him. Perhaps the only thing we could do is after the stoppage have Cripps follow the opposition ruck around and let De Koning run around freely. But I'm not sure Cripps can even keep pace with rucks like Grundy or Nic Nat.

On the plus side, his agility has improved massively, he is clearly capable and powerful enough to run those arcs that make him hard to stop, but then comes the kick or handball.

Sometimes when kicking he is lucky to hit his foot, perhaps he should take up boot slamming style like the olden days, just stick your foot out and throw the footy at it! Buy him a pair of steel cap boots! :o

I hate talking about this stuff, because I'm a Carlton fan and Cripps is a Carlton man, it hurts to discuss because I want him to succeed so badly.

I want the "fat kid", as he was labelled by Dodoro and his CheatingFC mates, to stick it right up em!  >:(
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: jeza on August 27, 2021, 04:20:34 pm
I'm not interested in changing your opinion.

I'm interested in hearing why people like you who share that opinion do. What are the reasons.

So far all i've gathered is.....I like Cripps because Cripps is good.
Is that all there is?

To me Cripps seems a little like Ollie Wines when he couldn't get his body right for a few years there. Once he got off the waterskis he's gotten his body right and will be an excellent player for Port for many years yet. AA this year.

We want more players capable of AA / Brownlow level of performance - not less. You think he's over the hill or whatever - who cares? He's just signed a contract and is here for 5 years so I'm confused what the point of this is.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 27, 2021, 04:33:45 pm
His lack of pace is a massive problem, because if you stand him in F50 or D50 his opponents of similar size nearly all run off him. Perhaps the only thing we could do is after the stoppage have Cripps follow the opposition ruck around and let De Koning run around freely. But I'm not sure Cripps can even keep pace with rucks like Grundy or Nic Nat.

On the plus side, his agility has improved massively, he is clearly capable and powerful enough to run those arcs that make him hard to stop, but then comes the kick or handball.

Sometimes when kicking he is lucky to hit his foot, perhaps he should take up boot slamming style like the olden days, just stick your foot out and throw the footy at it! Buy him a pair of steel cap boots! :o

I hate talking about this stuff, because I'm a Carlton fan and Cripps is a Carlton man, it hurts to discuss because I want him to succeed so badly.

I want the "fat kid", as he was labelled by Dodoro and his CheatingFC mates, to stick it right up em!  >:(

I actually suggested a couple times that it would be advantageous for Cripps to be playing ruck (especially this year!) due to giving us an advantage as a 4th mid and maybe being able to keep up with his direct opponent (ruck).

Maybe we asked him to play ruck and he didn't wanna play ball?
BUT, i think it could be beneficial to us, and him, to think about playing that role in the future. It negates most of his negatives.
Title: Re: Football Department Review
Post by: kruddler on August 27, 2021, 04:39:01 pm
To me Cripps seems a little like Ollie Wines when he couldn't get his body right for a few years there. Once he got off the waterskis he's gotten his body right and will be an excellent player for Port for many years yet. AA this year.

We want more players capable of AA / Brownlow level of performance - not less. You think he's over the hill or whatever - who cares? He's just signed a contract and is here for 5 years so I'm confused what the point of this is.
Point is to discuss. We are discussing.

I understand your position with AA level performance, i just feel the game is moving away from him and so is his body.
But...on that same line of thinking...if we can get 2x first round picks in for him, perhaps we get 2xAA's for the price of 1?

FWIW, JK signed a 2 year extension and was traded out the same year. It happens. Depends whats on offer.