A game we should win: which means it probably isn't going to easy. We are very frustrating in that.
Too many hot potato type players today, it's no point counting stats when you see so so many handballs and hot kicks to nobody. Too many players avoiding contact, with snap rushed disposals, our list is massively imbalanced in this aspect.
Headless chooks.
Slow ball movement, insanely slow ball movement.
Non existent game plan.
Never got numbers around the ball.
Every time we're expected to win, we fold.
(https://advancetitan.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Jekyll-and-Hyde-Leo-Costello.jpg)
That's us!
Hospital list will be interesting.
Time for a few operations.
This is simply a rotten club. They show what they can do when they have a crack in the rare times they put in. Sadly they don't do it enough on a weekly basis.
Teague isn't going to survive that, like Ratten wasn't in 2012. Best we start looking I suppose so we get in ahead of Collingwood. Start at Don Pyke. Let's see if we can kill his career off.
Disgraceful effort from the players...Teague will wear the flak but our attack on the ball and effort was minimal like it was vs North.
The Suns are horrible, Weitering did his job on their only forward of note and we still lost.....got beat up around the ball by Miller, Anderson and Powell, hardly the cream of the crop in terms of midfields.
As LP said...players avoiding contact, not wanting to chase, man up and do the basics. I hope they are happy watching the bloke who had their back all year cop it from the media and probably get the Ar$e.
Wouldnt be surprised if Teague resigns this week, why wait for the Knife.....
Way too many hacks out there
The issue?
VFL at most clubs = Newnes, Plowman, Newman, LOB
Plus Fisher was putrid, Betts putrid, Dow putrid, Kennedy poor, etc etc the latter two too inconsistent
Plus our Captain won’t run back, Jack Martin can’t keep his feet and C Curnow can’t jump
50% of the starting 22. No hope.
All over for another year
So typical of a overhyped team.
This club year after year after year sucks many of us into thinking we are capable of something and really taking a step but fails every single time whenever we have even the slightest thing to play for.
Not sure its as simple as a new coach. Have overrated footballers on every line. A new coach wont fix that without another cleanout.
And nearing the end of another season we remain the same unmotivated, undisciplined, shockingly inconsistent side that we've been for years. Same old, same old.
Worse than disappointing - again.
Will we have to sit through the remaining 2 games of the season with the status quo?
Is there anyone in our football department who actually understands our game? Winning? Persistent intensity? There are obviously a good few people in our football department who should feel guilty accepting their pay packet.
Disgraceful effort from the players...Teague will wear the flak but our attack on the ball and effort was minimal like it was vs North.
The Suns are horrible, Weitering did his job on their only forward of note and we still lost.....got beat up around the ball by Miller, Anderson and Powell, hardly the cream of the crop in terms of midfields.
As LP said...players avoiding contact, not wanting to chase, man up and do the basics. I hope they are happy watching the bloke who had their back all year cop it from the media and probably get the Ar$e.
Wouldnt be surprised if Teague resigns this week, why wait for the Knife.....
Only reason you'd wait is for the payout. Ratts would know how he feels.
Next sucker!
This is simply a rotten club. They show what they can do when they have a crack in the rare times they put in. Sadly they don't do it enough on a weekly basis.
Teague isn't going to survive that, like Ratten wasn't in 2012. Best we start looking I suppose so we get in ahead of Collingwood. Start at Don Pyke. Let's see if we can kill his career off.
Absolutely rotten to the core, soulless rabble. And it's way deeper than the coach and players.
I'm of the firm belief that the Pratt's and Mathison's are the poison that run thru the club.
Way too many hacks out there
The issue?
VFL at most clubs = Newnes, Plowman, Newman, LOB
Plus Fisher was putrid, Betts putrid, Dow putrid, Kennedy poor, etc etc the latter two too inconsistent
Plus our Captain won’t run back, Jack Martin can’t keep his feet and C Curnow can’t jump
50% of the starting 22. No hope.
All over for another year
You watch the way the brownlow goes this year, the opposition's most dominant player is almost exclusively opposed to Cripps EVERY SINGLE WEEK. He gets murdered on transition and in general play.
Tbh it’s not surprising to me at all, that we lost that. When we played them earlier this year I recall we had the game but not convincingly.
That was so painful to watch, no intensity no care no grunt no toughness no care or cover for team mates.
Something needs to change and I don’t believe it’s the coach. It’s the guys on the field and their bloody expectations of each other. No one seems to care about winning or losing. They have just been riding out the year the past month, I don’t get it.
You watch the way the brownlow goes this year, the opposition's most dominant player is almost exclusively opposed to Cripps EVERY SINGLE WEEK. He gets murdered on transition and in general play.
Been going on for a while, think Nathan Buckley started it a while back, rather than trying to stop Cripps you run a good player off him and hope he can cause more damage because Cripps is incapable of manning up on anyone as he is too slow. Cripps needs to learn how to play forward more so we can rotate more mids who can stop that ploy.
Wow i cant believe that effort could not ONE player fume like I was doing watching it and make a statement....fly the flag...say we want to win....like THEY did.There is no excuse for not manning up sticking a tackle making them earn a bloody kick not waltz through us like a bunch of arm waving flags.Looking at that last quarter even kicking down the line to nothing mind you gc muppets were engaging us to stop a lead and then peeling off as ball is kicked while we still wave our arms around. We have no confidence thus we lose skills lose our faith in who is doing what 2 players go into tackle loose man outside see ya later...is that coaching I just dont dont know we need leaders on the ground that bust a gut but moreso inspire confidence that all will be ok..Touk Miller anyone? This mob has just about done me in Ias I have to finally admit I cant see where the change will come from nothing really in the twos to look forward to no quick always just a freakin struggle every game with the media circus sucking us down every chance and other clubs supporters loving our swimming in quicksand. Ive loved my bluebaggers for 50 +years but Im sorely tested to give anything to this club at the moment from top to bottom Unreliable.
Been going on for a while, think Nathan Buckley started it a while back, rather than trying to stop Cripps you run a good player off him and hope he can cause more damage because Cripps is incapable of manning up on anyone as he is too slow. Cripps needs to learn how to play forward more so we can rotate more mids who can stop that ploy.
Yep, unfortunately he isn't skilled, quick or crafty enough to play as a forward. Been a complete liability for the majority of the last two years.
Six years to go.
Like most, I was expecting a win today, but to be fair, GC has been up and down like a yo yo this season. Their good is pretty good. The only question for me was whether last week was the straw that broke the camel's back, or whether it would fire them up for this week. I guess now we know.
It certainly wasn't a one sided affair, but they were the better team in the end.
Maybe the boys have already been told Teague is on the way out.
Well I hope that solves the question of blokes like LOB! A few others can go too Like Newnes etc get some tougher players who thrive on the contest and hitting the packs, tackling by grinding a player into the ground letting them know they've been in a contest and earned every point. Doesn’t matter now get Murph to 300 and play anyone like Kemp etc who haven’t played and give them a taste even if they haven’t earned it or aren’t in the correct “training block”
LoB's papers are probably stamped, but to be fair, we had plenty of average players today. He wasn't our worst by any stretch IMO.
There are a few things that I comment on EVERY GAME. When the opposition have the ball not a single Carlton player looks for an opposition player that is in a position to receive a pass and then run HARD to close that opportunity for them.
Every game, players (especially Weitering) do NOT look at their opponent when standing their mark but rather look at the umpire. This season it is easier to hear what the umpire is saying so there is no need to look at him for information but to just concentrate on the body and eyes of your opponent to give yourself a possible advantage.
Lack of speed to the ball. If a player gets to the ball first easily he has a great advantage over his opponents. If still hard pressed then you still have time to kick the ball off the ground.
Too many players left in the dark when being hard-chased. No team-mates yelling advice.
AND MANY OTHER SMALL DETAILS TO NUMEROUS TO LIST HERE.
Carltonitis: a new psychiatric condition describing a group of people living in a delusional world who have the belief that Carlton will one day make the final 8.
There are a few things that I comment on EVERY GAME. When the opposition have the ball not a single Carlton player looks for an opposition player that is in a position to receive a pass and then run HARD to close that opportunity for them.
Every game, players (especially Weitering) do NOT look at their opponent when standing their mark but rather look at the umpire. This season it is easier to hear what the umpire is saying so there is no need to look at him for information but to just concentrate on the body and eyes of your opponent to give yourself a possible advantage.
Lack of speed to the ball. If a player gets to the ball first easily he has a great advantage over his opponents. If still hard pressed then you still have time to kick the ball off the ground.
Too many players left in the dark when being hard-chased. No team-mates yelling advice.
AND MANY OTHER SMALL DETAILS TO NUMEROUS TO LIST HERE.
Speed or intent?
Some weeks they're fine, indeed very good
Today, no one wanted it. No one.
Cr@p side going backwards. Wish we played all our games on Sunday night.
Yep, unfortunately he isn't skilled, quick or crafty enough to play as a forward. Been a complete liability for the majority of the last two years.
Six years to go.
Very harsh.
No doubt he has his limitations but his strength is in winning contested ball and he is that good at it that every single team in the comp would love having him in their midfield group playing that exact role which considering where we are says enough to suggest he is far from a problem in our team.
The issue with our club is Cripps weakness is highlighted in every loss by the lack of defensive cover from the remaining midfield group who overall apart from Walsh are plodders at best. Its a simplistic approach to suggest Cripps lack of defensive running is a major reason we get slaughter in the midfield most weeks. The lack of running midfielders depth wise we have is alarming and until we get adequate support in there nothing will change. Kennedy, Dow and Setterfield are not the answer.
Do you think Dusty Martin has ever been a hard 2 way runner? Judd at his best looked lazy defensively at times. The very best mids usually have this as a weaknesses - its just that the better teams have the players in that area that provide the cover to stop their champs being exploited.
We dont have that luxury.
Speed or intent?
Some weeks they're fine, indeed very good
Today, no one wanted it. No one.
This says it all really and im not convinced a simple coach change fixes this.
It was a big if, but if we won our last 3 remaining games we were more then 50/50 to play finals yet it looked like the intensity was not there and the lowly GC wanted the win more then our guys. If you let that sink in you really cant fathom WTF is wrong still with this playing group.
The supporters want success more then the majority of the playing group. Considering our last 6 years in the wilderness you would think any group of real sportsmen would have been breathing fire for the last 3 weeks with the chance of finals on the line
Sadly way too many of our blokes just don't want it enough.
Very harsh.
No doubt he has his limitations but his strength is in winning contested ball and he is that good at it that every single team in the comp would love having him in their midfield group playing that exact role which considering where we are says enough to suggest he is far from a problem in our team.
The issue with our club is Cripps weakness is highlighted in every loss by the lack of defensive cover from the remaining midfield group who overall apart from Walsh are plodders at best. Its a simplistic approach to suggest Cripps lack of defensive running is a major reason we get slaughter in the midfield most weeks. The lack of running midfielders depth wise we have is alarming and until we get adequate support in there nothing will change. Kennedy, Dow and Setterfield are not the answer.
Do you think Dusty Martin has ever been a hard 2 way runner? Judd at his best looked lazy defensively at times. The very best mids usually have this as a weaknesses - its just that the better teams have the players in that area that provide the cover to stop their champs being exploited.
We dont have that luxury.
You're not lumping Cripps in with Dusty are you? Not in the same postcode. I love the guy, but be honest, Cripps doesn't impact going fwd.
Watch who the opposition send to him, then watch how effective that player is around the ground. Coaches target him and it costs us every game. Yes it's a 'team' midfield and we are very shallow, but crippa is almost a lead weight on that group of aforementioned C-graders.
You're not lumping Cripps in with Dusty are you? Not in the same postcode. I love the guy, but be honest, Cripps doesn't impact going fwd.
Watch who the opposition send to him, then watch how effective that player is around the ground. Coaches target him and it costs us every game. Yes it's a 'team' midfield and we are very shallow, but crippa is almost a lead weight on that group of aforementioned C-graders.
We could 2 years ago when he was near enough the best player in the comp.
If not for Weitering and Jones this year, where would we be?
Well, Mr Sayers, you'll need an icy objectivity to address our on-field issues. Hopefully you won't defer to sentimentality, populist or half-@rsed processes when addressing the imperative changes needed in our footy department. Poor leadership, poor discipline, dying culture... astounding incompetence for so long from a once great club. And the proof of this is on full display most weeks, on the field. Just enough good performances occur to give us confidence in the list, but it stops there.
I commented at the beginning of the year, after a few rounds, that we've been conned again. Enormous credit must go to the marketing/PR and media departments for such an effective 'sell.' But if we go into 2022 with many of the same faces in the footy department, that will be an impossible 'sell.' A lot of faith, if not already gone, is wavering. There is very little confidence in our present leadership.
Most disappointing part is we are good enough to play finals. For 2 years we have been in some sort of contention late in the year with most of a season of half assed efforts. All we needed was a consistent effort week in, week out. That's the most disappointing by far, worse than being just plainly 5hit. What AFL player in his right mind doesn't care enough about playing finals. A Carlton one of course.
Correct me if I am wrong but team defence and 'system' is coaching driven.
https://youtu.be/1hqYj4cYrJQ
Correct me if I am wrong but team defence and 'system' is coaching driven.
https://youtu.be/1hqYj4cYrJQ
Only if the players want to play to the plan. That's the issue. Some weeks it has been really good, most weeks terrible as they don't give a 5hit.
Thanks Carlton, it's ingrained in my psyche so I knew it was going to happen. A rubbish performance from coaches and players, bullied, outworked and beaten by a team with nothing other than pride to player for.
LoB's papers are probably stamped, but to be fair, we had plenty of average players today. He wasn't our worst by any stretch IMO.
Think he would know that today puts him back under the hammer and while he should play vs Port having to play on Duursma, Amon and Butters if he plays on the wing is going to be even harder. Got a bit of ball in the last quarter did LOB today but needs games like last week in the remaining two vs Port and GWS.
And one other thing, in pre-empting the Murphy hate, if anyone can enlighten me as to how Murph may have impacted/caused todays poor result, I'm keen to hear it. Should make for interesting reading.
You would have thought with so many players playing for their Careers we could put some effort in, once again today it was a rabble just another terrible game to watch, how many times have we played like that now this year 3 or 4 ???
And one other thing, in pre-empting the Murphy hate, if anyone can enlighten me as to how Murph may have impacted/caused todays poor result, I'm keen to hear it. Should make for interesting reading.
He's been part of the core group responsible for the standards acceptable by their peers. Been a conditional player for many, many years. He epitomises why we are where we are. Not really his fault though, it is who he is... Our gutless MCs and board over the years have refused to make difficult decisions.
You would have thought with so many players playing for their Careers we could put some effort in, once again today it was a rabble just another terrible game to watch, how many times have we played like that now this year 3 or 4 ???
Teague will do very well to survive this performance, I like the guy but inconsistent effort is going to be the end of him.
WARNING IRRATIONAL RANT FOLLOWS - WRITTEN AS A NEXT ROUND PREVIEW BUT WITH A FAIR BUT OF VITRIOLIC REVIEW THROWN IN AT THE END.
Before I fire up let me say I know it is unjustifiably harsh, I know the players turn up with the intent to try their best even if some days they don't fire a shot, I know some busted a gut today and all who play at this level have not only skill beyond us mere mortals but also courage I can't honestly say I know i would display (albeit that courageous is a word that was often used to described my pathetic playing career but largely because to my skill level my courage was impressive rather than it being objectively so) and that they by and large make sacrifices in their lives to ever get to that level but most of us couldn't and/or wouldn't BUT DAMN IT I HAVE LOVED THIS CLUB SINCE 1968 AND I AM GOING TO BE IRRATIONAL ALL RIGHT!
With any luck the competition might be shut down and/or this game cancelled due to Covid.
By my calculation there were 14 players not playing today who might be fit enough to play next week ("the Fit 14"). That would be 14 of my starting 18. If any don't come up it saves another "player" (and I use the term loosely) from today. That leaves 9 spots including medical sub. I would fill them with those that most deserve to be there - a mix of performance this week (not that many get a plus mark), effort over the season, effort over their career and those that need another game under their belt to develop (maybe Honey), continue a comeback (Charlie) or show they are worth a place on the list next year (arguably Kennedy, Dow, O'Brien etc) So category 1 for example would be Newman possibly our best player today, category 2 Walsh, category 3 - well we may as well carry Murph to 300 games now, and category 4 Charlie.
In terms of who played well enough today to have any case to argue for staying in the side - well there's Newman, Walsh, Ed Curnow. Others weren't disgusting but these are the 3 that I reckon flew the flag. Of course Walsh is in category 2 (and H Mac if he is fit but for the sake of the exercise I will assume he is out injured) and Ed C in category 3, so let's start listing "THE NON-SACKED NINE"
Category 1 Newman E Curnow (also could be in category 3)
Category 2 Walsh
Category 3 Murphy
Category 4 TBA
Cripps would also deserve category 3 status for his career, but for the sake of this exercise I am going to say (as may well be the case) he deserves even more a rest for his battered body.
Add Charlie C as category 4 - so 4 more to go. Given I have already suggested only 3 fit category 1 let's look to categories 2, 3 and 4. To my mind we should address category 3 first - those whose body of work over their career with the Blues has them deserving to avoid the ignominy of the cull. Possibles excluding Cripps as aforesaid are Betts of course, Jones and maybe even Weitering albeit he is still young. In any event Weits would surely get in under category 2 for his season performances. That would make 22. I also think JSOS deserves a spot on his year and his drive (and no doubt the family name subconsciously comes into play), so without having any consideration of category 4 we are already at 23 but let's see whether any category 4s deserve to oust any and how many of the names above.
I see the category 4s beyond Charlie as being:
Young guns Honey Stocker Dow
Last chancers Kennedy Williamson O'Brien
Comebackers Nil
I think all but O'Brien have either shown enough or had enough chances to make a decision on their future without needing another look - I won't digress into who I think should stay and who should go that's for the list management discussion, but ... no I won't digress. :smile:
So if you include O'Brien there is 24, one miss out (be one of the 3 emergencies not medisub) and two other bodies to also be named an emergency. End of the day I think Honey's goals probably earn him at least an emergency slot and that leaves 1 emergency and I don't give a rat's tossbag which of these underwhelming (I'll again use the term loosely) "players" get that spot but forced to pick one I'd go Williamson as a harder body who is trying to save his career. Of course if any one or more of the Fit 14 don't come up then one or more of the emergencies and (if we had a run off injuries to the Fit 14 - and let's face it with our injury run this year anything's possible) even beyond might get saved, but for the sake of the exercise let's go with Fit 14 plus 9 plus 3, and I'd line them up with the Fit 14 plus 4 others starting on field ike this:
Williams McDonald Parks
Cottrell Weitering Ramsay
Carroll Setterfield SPS
Durdin McGovern Fogarty
Casboult C Curnow Owies
Jones Kemp Murphy
Then bench plus medisub
E Curnow Newman JSOS Walsh / Betts
Emergencies: MEDISUB Honey O'Brien Williamson
Eddie gets medisub to hopefully limit his workload and set him up fresh for round 23 just in case it is his last game. Smurph gets to play all day (injury aside) in his 300th, that is how it should be for anyone's 300th if the season is over, and he should retire at the final siren or better still announce it before the game. Not that I expect he would do that,, but if I ran the club I'd tell him it's that or medisub for his 300th and see which choice he would make - but if he said medisub I'd start him anyway, his career deserves it. I am a softy/romantic at heart.
Of course no AFL club would do such a thing but it would send such a message. Of course the team would get pumped unless the Port coach completely stuffed up (by which I mean their bus breaks down and they don't reach the ground). But that is the point - the players today other than the ones I have named forfeited the right to wear the first team guernsey for one week at least and it's only the rules around player lists and availability that save even them. It was a collective failure and warrants collective consequences. On on the point of consequences surely the Teague train has been derailed. He should get on the phone to Clarko himself and offer him the job (and ideally stay on as senior assistant with a Roos/Goodwin deal to take over in a few years). Again never going to happen, but then neither was my 3QT suggestion he send one assistant coach out to tell the "players" words to the effect "if you aren't going to turn up for us then we're not going to turn up for you" and then turn around and walk off.
END RANT
We could 2 years ago when he was near enough the best player in the comp.
I'd have been right there with you. Unfortunately that was a long time ago. We are way too easy to play against.
I'm not sure about Russell. Our players can't stay on the field and we can only sustain effort for 1 game and then come out the next week like we've just run a marathon. Are we overworking then during the week? Not enough? Are the recovery sessions working?
I do think Teague and the players deserve heat for sure but the conditioning clearly isn't working for our group.
I think we need to rotate guys out who are feeling off a lot more regularly. Carroll and Cotterell or Kemp could have helped spark something.
And a last word for the hapless Plowman. He is the dumbest player in the AFL. If you don't agree that's fine but you are categorically wrong. The fact that he finishes high in our B&F probably says more about our club and our culture of acceptance of mediocrity than anything else.
Kemp should have replaced him weeks ago.
And one other thing, in pre-empting the Murphy hate, if anyone can enlighten me as to how Murph may have impacted/caused todays poor result, I'm keen to hear it. Should make for interesting reading.
Picking a bloke who is cooked to be part of the team (even as sub) sends a very clear signal to the rest of the team:
MEDIOCRITY ACCEPTED HERE
Cr@p side going backwards. Wish we played all our games on Sunday night.
If not for Weitering and Jones this year, where would we be?
Well, Mr Sayers, you'll need an icy objectivity to address our on-field issues. Hopefully you won't defer to sentimentality, populist or half-@rsed processes when addressing the imperative changes needed in our footy department. Poor leadership, poor discipline, dying culture... astounding incompetence for so long from a once great club. And the proof of this is on full display most weeks, on the field. Just enough good performances occur to give us confidence in the list, but it stops there.
I commented at the beginning of the year, after a few rounds, that we've been conned again. Enormous credit must go to the marketing/PR and media departments for such an effective 'sell.' But if we go into 2022 with many of the same faces in the footy department, that will be an impossible 'sell.' A lot of faith, if not already gone, is wavering. There is very little confidence in our present leadership.
My sentiments exactly.
You would have thought with so many players playing for their Careers we could put some effort in, once again today it was a rabble just another terrible game to watch, how many times have we played like that now this year 3 or 4 ???
That's part of the problem. They play for their careers and next contract, not for the team.
I was warming up for a multi-paged rant, but I've over it for the moment. I do have a few things that I need to say though:
[1] Whether the players love Teague or not is now irrelevant. Today they killed him as a senior coach. Having produced two unacceptable efforts in three weeks will be the end of him.
[2] Most of the assistant coaches can also pack their bags. But for a couple of newbies, like Power, the rest have been there for a while and will not get another contract. Whoever the new coach may be, he will have to find his own assistants.
[3] There are a number of players whose contract status for next year and beyond was questionable. Those that played today probably did irreversible damage to their chances of remaining. They probably won't be sacked: they will be traded for draft picks and other players. I am assuming a new coach who will want want the same cattle trying to kill him.
[4] There won't be many voters for the Jim Park this week. We managed only 7 a few weeks back when we lost to North, and only managed a dozen when we triumphed last week. That is just so much less than normal, between one third and one half of the voters no longer bothering.
I may even be one of them. I didn't see the match live. I might watch it on Kayo, but I might not. My mental health is dubious enough at the moment without my football team making it worse.
[5] I know Russell has a very good reputation, but our boys don't seem to be responding to him any better than they have to the coaching staff. Our injuries have mounted every week. That may also reflect poorly on our medical staff. The new administration will have to address this issue, as we cannot afford to die in the last quarter.
[6] The finger may well point at our recruiters again. It is hard to blame young Austin: he simply hasn't been there long enough. But some of the others could well face immanent replacement.
[7] When it comes time to celebrate Marc Murphy's 300th game, there isn't going to be much to celebrate. He has struggled to have an impact of late and the team are not likely to come up against the team in the 8.
[8] Until the team plays for the jumper and not the dollar, we will continue to be a rabble. That could well be one of the reasons for the clean out that now will come at season's end.
2] Most of the assistant coaches can also pack their bags. But for a couple of newbies, like Power, the rest have been there for a while and will not get another contract. Whoever the new coach may be, he will have to find his own assistants.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the assistant coaches supposed to have been told a week ago whether they had positions for 2022.
It's pretty clear what our problem is - the list not the coaches.
I'm going to shoot Bambi. If the likes of Fisher want to enjoy the trappings of a professional footballer he needs to be a professional footballer and play in such a manner. No more crap Instagram channel BS headressing action, just get a kick son. Just like far too many on our list - too distracted by stuff outside football and not enough emphasis on the team and club.
Over these frauds, time to sort the culture out.
What is the game plan? What are the structures?
Either the players aren’t sure or our opponents are well and truly onto them?
When it’s not working, what is plan B (and plan C)?
We have a group of elite footballers that don’t work as a team.
It’s not the personnel at fault. It’s the management of them.
Our new club song is “Land of Confusion” (if Phil Collins doesn’t mind)
Not sure our players are that elite, some woeful skills and some only turn up every couple of weeks when they feel like making an effort.How many million dollar a year players do North have or the Suns... The latter are kids, locals, hacks from the VFL, journeymen from other clubs and a few early round picks finding their way. Plus they were playing us away from home..
People bag out the likes of Sellers Mclure but at least him, The Dominator etc could be out on the fizz all week but all would turn up to play on game day. How do you coach players who can't be bothered competing each week?
In my own experience of being a member of sporting teams, albeit at a pretty humble level, the main ingredients for success, apart from talent and ability, were belief and commitment.
I think we probably have adequate if not spectacular talent but the belief and commitment are definitely missing on too many occasions. IMHO this goes beyond the realms of coaching and stems from deep within the fabric of the club. We could keep speculating but if the review does not nail it, get used to it going on for more years to come.
In my own experience of being a member of sporting teams, albeit at a pretty humble level, the main ingredients for success, apart from talent and ability, were belief and commitment.
I think we probably have adequate if not spectacular talent but the belief and commitment are definitely missing on too many occasions. IMHO this goes beyond the realms of coaching and stems from deep within the fabric of the club. We could keep speculating but if the review does not nail it, get used to it going on for more years to come.
Playing devils advocate here...
How do you expect players to have belief and commitment when....
1. The club is doing an internal review of the football department mid-season
2. The media are constantly trying to get Teague sacked
3. The members/supporters are calling for Teagues head and get more joy from bagging out the players than from pumping them up.
As a club we lack belief (in ourselves) and commitment (to those we employ to do their job). That has to filter down and penetrate every level of the club to the point where it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
How do we break the cycle? Back ourselves in and stop sacking the coach!
@ Kruddler
I don't expect the players to be able to sustain belief and commitment because, as I stated, I do believe we we have deep problems at the club that sacking yet another coach would unlikely fix. I do understand the frustration of supporters though who are forced to witness the long standing litany of failure.
The player performances are a function of club culture. We see new players join us and gradually succumb to it. It is vital that the review finds the root causes and gets them fixed, otherwise..........??
No doubt he has his limitations but his strength is in winning contested ball and he is that good at it that every single team in the comp would love having him in their midfield group playing that exact role which considering where we are says enough to suggest he is far from a problem in our team.
The issue with our club is Cripps weakness is highlighted in every loss by the lack of defensive cover from the remaining midfield group who overall apart from Walsh are plodders at best. Its a simplistic approach to suggest Cripps lack of defensive running is a major reason we get slaughter in the midfield most weeks. The lack of running midfielders depth wise we have is alarming and until we get adequate support in there nothing will change. Kennedy, Dow and Setterfield are not the answer.
Do you think Dusty Martin has ever been a hard 2 way runner? Judd at his best looked lazy defensively at times. The very best mids usually have this as a weaknesses - its just that the better teams have the players in that area that provide the cover to stop their champs being exploited.
We dont have that luxury.
Very good assessment - supported by how effective the midfield was the previous week when Silvagni was forced to spend so much time in the ruck and the midfield support he provided.
On a sort-of positive note - the recruitment of Saad seems to have been one of our better decisions for this season - his acceleration and kicking skills are very good and he has been much more desperate as a defender that I had been led to believe - all of which make me question whether he was carrying a significant injury yesterday - not once did I see him back his speed to run with the ball
Agree RR, Saad had little impact , in fact most of our team were wondering like headless chooks, just can’t understand what happens in football.
The Saint pathetic last week , yesterday in the space of a6/7 days hammer the Swans by 30 points. Go figure
Agree RR, Saad had little impact , in fact most of our team were wondering like headless chooks, just can’t understand what happens in football.
The Saint pathetic last week , yesterday in the space of a6/7 days hammer the Swans by 30 points. Go figure
Despite what fans will want to believe, large pay packets, professional environment etc. don't make players superhuman. What happens in the world, in their own club, own lives etc., affects them as much as us. You only need to be off by a very small margin to see the wild swings in form lines, effort etc. from one week to the next. I can't think of a single team that hasn't played at least one shocker this season.
What do you say? 2 absolutely disgraceful games sandwiched one good performance which probably just papered over the cracks. I texted a good mate, who is a Blues fan, at the 5 minute mark of the first quarter and said "we simply haven't turned up...it's that obvious...this will be a coach killer"....and pretty much spot on. About as listless a performance as you could get apart from about 10 minutes at the end of each of the first and second quarters.
Apologies if this has been covered in earlier comments but was it a "plan" to have McKay playing so far up the ground this week or did it just pan out that way? If it was a part of a plan then it needs some explaining....the Coleman leader who has kicked multiple goals nearly every week, and who had a distinct height and reach advantage over his direct opponent, is playing up around the 50m arc and up on the wing. What was the possible point of that? And putting Walsh behind the ball at the start of the game? A champion midfielder who will be tagged a lot over the next 10 years...up against a pretty ordinary midfield apart from Miller....and we put the white flag up at the opening bounce and park him in the backline?
And how do you go from tackling ferociously and with intent last week to so many weak, broken tackles this week? Some of the down the ground footage from behind the goals at time was damning....Gold Coast aren't that good and have been blown off the park in the last 2 weeks yet they just kicked it at ease from one end to the other without us anywhere near an opponent. Apart from King they have a makeshift forward line and yet they still spotted each other up inside the forward 50 at will.
I've been a fan of Newnes given he cost us nothing but his last few weeks have been appalling and he should've played his last game yesterday...get Kemp or Carroll in there in the last couple of weeks on a wing and give them a run.
We love Eddie for everything he's done at Carlton and Adelaide and for the greater game but his time is up and giving him another year isn't a great idea IMO. Give him and Murphy games to the end of the season to get to 350 and 300 respectively but then it's time.
The shopping list should include a lock down defender who can play on the medium/small forwards and sacrifice their own game to shut down and opponent...not a host of free-wheeling defenders. Plowman was a liability again yesterday.
O'Brien showed glimpses last week but was barely sighted yesterday...same with Dow.
Even Walsh seemed a bit "off" his game yesterday despite being one of our better players.
It it a coaches job to get players "up and motivated" each week or as highly paid professional athletes, should the players do that on their own? Either way, we are our own worst enemy in games where it matters. The top 8 was a remote chance but a win yesterday against Gold Coast would've kept it alive, but we simply didn't show up....it was that obvious. If it's coach...then he should clear his locker out because something needs to change at our club.
.......................................................
It it a coaches job to get players "up and motivated" each week or as highly paid professional athletes, should the players do that on their own? Either way, we are our own worst enemy in games where it matters. The top 8 was a remote chance but a win yesterday against Gold Coast would've kept it alive, but we simply didn't show up....it was that obvious. If it's coach...then he should clear his locker out because something needs to change at our club.
If you examine our body of work this season, we span the range from very good to very bad. Both are very real and very present. Inconsistency is the real killer. If it's up to the coach to motivate, then you would need to ask why he can motivate one week and not the next - it follows from this that his ability in this space also spans from very good to very bad. If it's up to the players, then exactly the same thing applies - if they can motivate themselves one week, then why not the next ? Once again, inconsistency. I'm not sure sure axe wielding either to coaches or players will help much to sort this out. In fact, I would argue it will make things worse.
There are no consequences on a footy forum - we can go to town chopping lists, players, coaches etc., without any fear of real world repercussions. I'm not sure it's that easy for a football club. The Bolton era made it obvious that too many changes in too short a period of time doesn't work. The temptation for people to be proactive and wanting to fix problems by "doing something" is very great, but if you've already made extensive changes over a short period, the next stage is stability and unity, not more upheaval IMO. There's a real skill involved in knowing when to make changes and when not to, a skill that I'm not sure we've mastered.
Sorry All but after yesterdays effort indulge me with a RANT>
1) F@rk
2) F@rk me
3) For Farks Sake
4) What the F@rk
Thank you RANT over.
Oh and maybe just maybe we weren't good last week, ST KIlda just had a day off based on what happened last night
hope we dont throw the kids in the deep end in by playing them against port ,gc game would have been perfect. Anyway 5 changes except for Mr undroppable.plowman
Sorry All but after yesterdays effort indulge me with a RANT>
1) F@rk
2) F@rk me
3) For Farks Sake
4) What the F@rk
Thank you RANT over.
Oh and maybe just maybe we weren't good last week, ST KIlda just had a day off based on what happened last night
Lol well said!
What is the game plan? What are the structures?
Either the players aren’t sure or our opponents are well and truly onto them?
When it’s not working, what is plan B (and plan C)?
We have a group of elite footballers that don’t work as a team.
It’s not the personnel at fault. It’s the management of them.
Our new club song is “Land of Confusion” (if Phil Collins doesn’t mind)
Can't coach a side that produces little effort. No game plan is working.
Sorry All but after yesterdays effort indulge me with a RANT>
1) F@rk
2) F@rk me
3) For Farks Sake
4) What the F@rk
Thank you RANT over.
Oh and maybe just maybe we weren't good last week, ST KIlda just had a day off based on what happened last night
No, we are very good when we WANT to be. Last week we were contrite and put in. when we do, every side has trouble with us. Watch us turn up next week now it's all over. We only had to produce and effort against North and GC and we'd play finals. That's what is the most frustrating. Was such a simple thing to do.
Can't coach a side that produces little effort. No game plan is working.
The player’s minds are not always focussed on the task in hand for whatever the reasons. Too much show pony stuff and not enough G & D. However the lack of on field leadership is also so bl00dy obvious. We never see enough of leaders showing the way and helping/directing other players which I’ve seen plenty of with other teams. The culture seems to be in the main to show off their own “brilliance “.
In the end all we had to do was properly try against North and the Gold Coast and we'd likely play finals. That was it, it was that simple. That is as frustrating as it gets. What AFL player in his right mind doesn't care about finals. At least last year we could blame choking in the last qtr against Collingwood and GWS in consecutive games as to why we missed out, but this year a complete lack of effort. Amazing with our "efforts" as that we have 8 wins, and lots of very competitive scoreboard losses. I use "scoreboard losses" as alot of those effort were terrible too. What a waste!
The player’s minds are not always focussed on the task in hand for whatever the reasons. Too much show pony stuff and not enough G & D. However the lack of on field leadership is also so bl00dy obvious. We never see enough of leaders showing the way and helping/directing other players which I’ve seen plenty of with other teams. The culture seems to be in the main to show off their own “brilliance “.
Yes, the culture is something terrible. Culture, drive and motivation is 90% player driven, peer pressure. Doesn't happen.
Can't coach a side that produces little effort. No game plan is working.
Yep, you can provide a game plan, structure etc but if your players wont buy in on a consistent basis then any coach is going to struggle. Too much mud thrown at Teague and not enough at the playing group and leadership on the ground.
Teagues problem is he is too kind to this lazy bunch of slack Ar$es and keeps making excuse for their lack of effort and saying he still has faith in them.
David Parkins veins would have popped by now coaching this mob and Robert Walls would have to order extra boxing gloves
to give them a Strempel style training session or two. Like I said before the previous playing group let Ratten down and this group have tortured Teague, no wonder he is losing his hair. Better order some reinforcement in the coaches boxes if Clarko gets the job because he will be punching holes in walls everywhere trying to figure out whats wrong with the culture and player mentality.
It must be nice being an ex player and winning the People's Choice Awards at Carlton. I guess a form of collective amnesia descends over sites like this (or maybe selective historicity) since I'm quite certain from 2007 till now we had more coaches than just Ratten and Teague.
From Juddy's autobiography
"Judd recounted the culture difference between West Coast and Carlton; and was blown away by the difference. He said at West Coast they expected to win and everyone trained accordingly, they were disciplined and all trained hard with the intent of winning a premiership. Conversely at Carlton (Wooden spooners) the players were simply hoping not to lose by too large a margin. Lesson-You get what you expect and deserve and train accordingly. At Carlton players were playing for a contract next year, not playing to win a premiership! Year upon year of finishing on the bottom has a much more destructive effect on culture than a handful of high draft picks could ever repair!"
Not really Paul. We know that there are other posters on here who can be relied on to remind us of the others. 8)
Not really Paul. We know that there are other posters on here who can be relied on to remind us of the others. 8)
Lol. I'll pay that. We should thank our lucky stars for those other posters, that's all I can say.
From Juddy's autobiography
"Judd recounted the culture difference between West Coast and Carlton; and was blown away by the difference. He said at West Coast they expected to win and everyone trained accordingly, they were disciplined and all trained hard with the intent of winning a premiership. Conversely at Carlton (Wooden spooners) the players were simply hoping not to lose by too large a margin. Lesson-You get what you expect and deserve and train accordingly. At Carlton players were playing for a contract next year, not playing to win a premiership! Year upon year of finishing on the bottom has a much more destructive effect on culture than a handful of high draft picks could ever repair!"
Are those actual quotes from his book ? What you've posted there sounds word for word like this fellow :
http://www.injoewetrust.com.au/2015/10/25/10-take-aways-from-chris-judds-autobiography/
To my reading it's him paraphrasing and not quoting from the book as such - he may well have got the substance right, but I'd be keen to read Judd's actual words.
Judd arrived in 2007, and he is one of an absurd number of individuals who have come in and tried to improve culture. Dozens and dozens of coaches, players, recruiters etc. And here we are. The playing list and coaching stuff have changed many times over since 2007. So singling out individuals as the reason for this bad culture won't work. Individuals have been replaced again and again.
Are those actual quotes from his book ? What you've posted there sounds word for word like this fellow :
http://www.injoewetrust.com.au/2015/10/25/10-take-aways-from-chris-judds-autobiography/
To my reading it's him paraphrasing and not quoting from the book as such - he may well have got the substance right, but I'd be keen to read Judd's actual words.
Judd arrived in 2007, and he is one of an absurd number of individuals who have come in and tried to improve culture. Dozens and dozens of coaches, players, recruiters etc. And here we are. The playing list and coaching stuff have changed many times over since 2007. So singling out individuals as the reason for this bad culture won't work. Individuals have been replaced again and again.
That is exactly what Judd said a few years ago. There is no argument about him being right. Cultures unfortunately pervade through a club. Personnel changes but not all at once so it gets "passed down", for want of a better word. That's why bad cultures hang around.
Lol. I'll pay that. We should thank our lucky stars for those other posters, that's all I can say.
👍
I think LOB had a crack and at least he can hit a target… most of his kicks are strong, he keeps them low and places them well. Yeah, I didn’t see the whole game and his stats were ordinary…
I think LOB had a crack and at least he can hit a target… most of his kicks are strong, he keeps them low and places them well. Yeah, I didn’t see the whole game and his stats were ordinary…
I posted in the in-game thread.
LOB had only touched it 6 times up to 3/4 time.
He had 8 touches in the last to end with 14.
Blokes like LOB, Fisher, Dow, Kennedy, Williamson and even SPS need to be played from here on. Last chance hotel (although I think Dow and Kennedy are safe).
Rocky I thought Kennedy was one of our better players on Saturday. His form since coming back into the team has been okay and warrants another contract. If Walsh doesn't get up for this weekend against Port then SPS might get his last hurrah.
No, we are very good when we WANT to be. Last week we were contrite and put in. when we do, every side has trouble with us. Watch us turn up next week now it's all over. We only had to produce and effort against North and GC and we'd play finals. That's what is the most frustrating. Was such a simple thing to do.
Its hard to work out each week whether it is Carlton playing well or the opposition not playing well. Maybe a bit harsh thinking like this but seeing what this team has been doing over the last few years i am becoming cynical. Now that we have lost Harry, next week will be a bath
Its hard to work out each week whether it is Carlton playing well or the opposition not playing well. Maybe a bit harsh thinking like this but seeing what this team has been doing over the last few years i am becoming cynical. Now that we have lost Harry, next week will be a bath
Ch7 reported H might be right to play, Walshy's injury is on the minor side.
Ch7 reported H might be right to play, Walshy's injury is on the minor side.
Hmmmmm, he's 11 ahead of his closest rival. Think they'll give him a rest up.
Ch7 reported H might be right to play, Walshy's injury is on the minor side.
Ch.9 reported that he is out!
What I don't understand is why we started the game with one of the best midfielders in the competition on the half back flank. It's not as though we don't have enough half back flankers on our list.
The other question I have is why did we play an extra behind the ball when we needed to score. Surely the coaches have worked out that playing a five man forward line makes it easier for the opposition to win intercept possessions and set up forward 50 entries ::)
If you set out not to lose the game, your chances of winning are minimised.
Ch.9 reported that he is out!
Ch7 must have ballsed the report up and got them mixed up.
Ch7 must have ballsed the report up and got them mixed up.
Still reporting today BigH out, Walsh in the clear.
Still reporting today BigH out, Walsh in the clear.
https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/997858/injury-news-walsh-expected-to-play-mckay-highly-unlikely-
What I don't understand is why we started the game with one of the best midfielders in the competition on the half back flank. It's not as though we don't have enough half back flankers on our list.
The other question I have is why did we play an extra behind the ball when we needed to score. Surely the coaches have worked out that playing a five man forward line makes it easier for the opposition to win intercept possessions and set up forward 50 entries ::)
If you set out not to lose the game, your chances of winning are minimised.
maybe he's trying to limit the impact on a young mid and try and use other players at the coalface? Blokes who we need to make a decision on?
Looks like Teague is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't to me.
Didn't man up Stewart one week. Should have played an extra back the next, shouldn't have played the extra back the following.
Personally the players are reacting to game situations and rather than telling them what to do they need to work it out and see how being accountable results in a 7 man defence and how we need to get opposition to react to us rather than the other way around.
Still there will be criticism for that too.
maybe he's trying to limit the impact on a young mid and try and use other players at the coalface? Blokes who we need to make a decision on?
Looks like Teague is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't to me.
Didn't man up Stewart one week. Should have played an extra back the next, shouldn't have played the extra back the following.
Personally the players are reacting to game situations and rather than telling them what to do they need to work it out and see how being accountable results in a 7 man defence and how we need to get opposition to react to us rather than the other way around.
Still there will be criticism for that too.
Walsh is one of the Brownlow favourites and the coach is trying to protect him? The commentators thought that Teague was trying to negate a possible hard tag.
The game was there to be won and we started with our best midfielder missing from the centre bounce 🙄
I don’t really want to go over the Stewart debacle again, but it’s not about manning him up. It’s about allowing one of the best intercept defenders free rein without an opponent to worry about.
Playing a five man forward line against the Suns made our forward 50 entries ineffective and allowed them to rebound and put our defence under pressure. A very strange tactic for a team that needed to score.
And it’s inconceivable that players went to a five man forward line without instructions from the coach.
I’m still in keep Teague camp but he really needs some help with his tactics and structures.
@DJC ^^
So we shouldn't use the other guys at the coalface, (one of the criticism from the North game, was that Cripps and Walsh in the middle limited the impact of Kennedy and Dow)?
Do we want to find out whether or not Lochie O'Brien is worth persisting with? Or do we lambast him for following his opponent into defence to create a 7 man defense?
Ive got no issue with what you write, but I'm just trying to show you that there are two sides to every decision, and if one wants to take a position either way, you can justify or criticise the thinking for roughly the same logic applied differently.
I personally didn't rate the decision to start Walsh off the half back line, but in footy, where they start is irrelevant, its where they spend most of their time that counts, and I didn't necessarily see Walsh spend 3/4 of the game in a back pocket, or half back flank trying to drive us forward off the half back line he just started in the back 6.
Dal Santo pointed out Jack Martin's work rate in the first quarter on the weekend, and that to me signified a much bigger problem. He spent his time running around the ground (fantastic work rate) only to burn all his chips, and not necessarily achieve much for the benefit of the overall team and structure. What one commentator talked up, I saw a real system issue unfolding at the time, and thought to myself, why on earth would one of our players do shuttle runs between the arcs to make position not to get used? What holes were they plugging, what did this do to our overall team structure, and is this the reason we couldn't generate run off half back? Its all relative. Systems should make the workload easier, because they have people sliding into positions to cover for someone who has gone off script, but not when they are working up and down the ground like that. Martin's movement was a positive for his workrate and a negative for structures, with a net break even or even to the detriment of the team. Unfortunately, this is what people see, this is what they laud, and this is where they dont understand that this only serves to confuse the inexperienced members of the team, even if it does blow up and opponent and does look like a bloke is trying really hard. They are too busy trying to do it all, and end up doing nothing.
My key take away at the moment, is that you can guage how well we are going to go at the ruck contest. The Jack Silvagni to the ruck ran out of usefulness on the weekend when facing Zac Smith who is a big strong bloke and was towelling up anyone we sent in there, because De Koning isnt battle hardened, and JSOS isnt a ruckman. That will play out again this week with Lycett in the ruck, so Im expecting that the mids are going to have to lift significantly this week.