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Re: 9/11 Debate

Reply #270
I have no problem with folks questioning 'official' versions of events.

But many seem to just stop there.
They've made up their mind.
They don't take the questioning any further.
They've picked their side and they've identified (very vaguely) a villain

But as LP suggests.....put another hat on and argue the opposite.

Again... Who, How Many and Why

Put a couple of planes into  a building....there's your war.
Why bring the buildings down on top of New York's finest?
It cant be to hide evidence because any investigators would no doubt have to be complicit for the plot to work.
And with that many people killed some of  the plotters would no doubt have had friends and relatives amongst the dead.

Who's idea?...the President's, the military.
How do you go from.... "I've got an idea how to start a war" to executing 9/11?
How do you gather people to your cause.
You would have to be a super judge of character to get that right because one wrong choice and you're sunk.
Somewhere along the way someone who's drawn into it with a bit of a conscience is bound to say "whoa"

In the twenty years since (as far as I know) they've been no 'deathbed confessions'(Edit- apparently there was one a Malcolm Howard.)...there's been no "I can't live with what I've done" suicides.
Even if your small part was something you didn't know you were doing at the time the after-guilt would be enough to drive you a little crazy.

And one can only imagine the damage to the country's stability and political structure if it were found to be true...not to mention the fate of those involved.

Even if some of the physics raise questions the human side of things (in terms of an American involvement) just doesn't make any sense.








As the Hells Angels always say, "Three can keep a secret if two are dead".
2017-16th
2018-Wooden Spoon
2019-16th
2020-dare to dream? 11th is better than last I suppose
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time

Re: 9/11 Debate

Reply #271
Interesting, if you go through imagery of airliner crash sites, you rarely if ever see imprints of the wings. Often the engines will be found separately in their own depression often many meters away from the fuselage impact site, but the wings just never seem to make a significant dent even in something as soft as dirt. The only examples I can find is aircraft crashing into forest, at which time the wings seem to become giant brush cutters.

There must be a very good physical reason for this, perhaps the heaviest part of the wing is next the fuselage, so that a shearing impact causes them to fold up along the line of impact like a dart straightening it's flight through the air resistance on it's lightweight wingtip.

Maybe @capcom‍ can tell us where the maximum air resistance is on a wing, I won't be at all surprised to find it's out near the wingtips.
The Force Awakens!

Re: 9/11 Debate

Reply #272
As the Hells Angels always say, "Three can keep a secret if two are dead".
How many dead are there from 9/11, about 3,000?

Can you imagine the complexity of that social network, the number of nodes? There is a whole field of maths dedicated to this sort of question, well above my paygrade. Some of you may be aware of the classic travelling sales problem, working out the shortest route to visit a number of towns, just 20 or 30 towns becomes incalculable for anything but giant supercomputers to solve, 3000 nodes is probably way way beyond anything we have on earth.

For those interested, here is a little link to the TSP.
Quote from: Understanding the Travelling Salesman Problem (TSP)
The problem can be solved by analyzing every round-trip route to determine the shortest one. However, as the number of destinations increases, the corresponding number of roundtrips surpasses the capabilities of even the fastest computers. With 10 destinations, there can be more than 300,000 roundtrip permutations and combinations. With 15 destinations, the number of possible routes could exceed 87 billion.
The Force Awakens!

Re: 9/11 Debate

Reply #273
Interesting, if you go through imagery of airliner crash sites, you rarely if ever see imprints of the wings. Often the engines will be found separately in their own depression often many meters away from the fuselage impact site, but the wings just never seem to make a significant dent even in something as soft as dirt. The only examples I can find is aircraft crashing into forest, at which time the wings seem to become giant brush cutters.

There must be a very good physical reason for this, perhaps the heaviest part of the wing is next the fuselage, so that a shearing impact causes them to fold up along the line of impact like a dart straightening it's flight through the air resistance on it's lightweight wingtip.

Maybe @capcom‍ can tell us where the maximum air resistance is on a wing, I won't be at all surprised to find it's out near the wingtips.
You nearly always see the tail intact, sit at the back I say.
2017-16th
2018-Wooden Spoon
2019-16th
2020-dare to dream? 11th is better than last I suppose
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time


Re: 9/11 Debate

Reply #275
How many dead are there from 9/11, about 3,000?
So we just gotta find the guy who pushed the detonator button (or was he part of the 3000).
2017-16th
2018-Wooden Spoon
2019-16th
2020-dare to dream? 11th is better than last I suppose
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time

Re: 9/11 Debate

Reply #276
...........................
As for nutters, the only nutters were the hijackers who flew the planes into to the buildings killing 3000 innocent people............................

With all due respect GTC, America wrote the playbook on killing innocents, both directly and indirectly through their state funded terrorism.

Re: 9/11 Debate

Reply #277
I just find that the international ripple effect that people clearly don't get is the fact that it killed economies (and permanently, a few airlines) across the world for years.

Incalculable damage caused by a manufactured and deliberate action with intent to murder your own countrymen?  Horse s***

It's fine to question, it's not when there is no basis or evidence behind the argument.

Re: 9/11 Debate

Reply #278
I heard on radio that in one study conducted the USA during 2020 prior to the election, almost 18% of middle America had enough doubt to leave open the possibility that the world was flat. We are not talking about illiterates or disadvantaged, these people are also nurses, doctors, accountants, lawyers, police, emergency workers, bureaucrats and politicians. A functional cross section of society.
The Force Awakens!

Re: 9/11 Debate

Reply #279
@LP ... it's evenly distributed given the weight / strength /width of the the pivot points to the fuselage tapering to the wing tips .. and the bladders holding the fuel.

Governed by the jet engine placements underwing.

But the closest point of failure (very generally) is at the fuselage connection or the engine failure regardless of their distance between fuselage and tip. 

EDIT .... There are numerous  aircraft maintenance checks on the airframes ranging from overnites to full on pull down :



https://www.naa.edu/types-of-aviation-maintenance-checks/

TAA sold a 727 to Coninental Airlines in the States in the late 70's.  The ONLY remaining complete piece of hardware from the original aircraft was the passenger door !!.

https://www.naa.edu/types-of-aviation-maintenance-checks/

 

Re: 9/11 Debate

Reply #280
Problem is it would take a lot more than 3 to carry out the events of 9/11

The official explanation of events says you only need 4 that are extremely well co-ordinated. 

Then a random passport found for good measure.

A simpler answer would be that they're not sure who did it, but they would never admit that publically which ratifies the opinion that the official version of events are dubious.

See how this works?  This is where the conspiracy theories come from.

Its all very easily explained by incompetence and poor communication but invariably never admitted to because politicians never get it wrong. 
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: 9/11 Debate

Reply #281
@LP ... it's evenly distributed given the weight / strength /width of the the pivot points to the fuselage tapering to the wing tips .. and the bladders holding the fuel.

Governed by the jet engine placements underwing.

But the closest point of failure (very generally) is at the fuselage connection or the engine failure regardless of their distance between fuselage and tip. 
Thanks @capcom

So that makes sense, from that I presume weight is generally/basically roughly evenly distributed either side of the engine mount position.

For my own reference, when fuel is consumed, does it come out of all bladders proportionally, or are they drained in a specific sequence? I presume this has to be controlled, so that in banking manoeuvres you do not get drastic changes in plane behaviour subject to fuel load.

I must admit, when I thought about it I was surprised just how much of a modern plane MTOW goes in fuel, they are basically flying fuel tanks with some room here and there for a bit of something else.

Cynics, sceptics and conspiracists make a big deal about the wings being mostly fluid, but anyone who has jumped off the high diving board knows exactly how hard liquid can be when you hit it, imagine doing that at 550MPH! Can you imagine throwing a full 30,000 litre water tank at a house or building at 550 MPH? (FYI; Human free fall terminal velocity is only about 120 MPH at the most, high dives are roughly half that!) :o
The Force Awakens!

Re: 9/11 Debate

Reply #282
The official explanation of events says you only need 4 that are extremely well co-ordinated. 

Then a random passport found for good measure.

A simpler answer would be that they're not sure who did it, but they would never admit that publically which ratifies the opinion that the official version of events are dubious.

See how this works?  This is where the conspiracy theories come from.

Its all very easily explained by incompetence and poor communication but invariably never admitted to because politicians never get it wrong. 

The North eastern corridor in the US is probably the most heavily militarised air space in the world, without exception.

On that day 2, 3 or 4 commercial jet liners flew way off their designated respective courses, for up to 45 minutes and not one jet popped up alongside and said 'hello, wtf...."?

An F15 can fly at 2500km/hr+ and there are air bases dotted all along the eastern seaboard and inland of the coast.

Then there's the 270 degree turn (with triple reverse pike :) ) required by whatever smacked into the Pentagon.....

Too funny.
Finals, then 4 in a row!

Re: 9/11 Debate

Reply #283
@LP The Centre belly tank (fuselage) is always used first, both for safety and then the wings as they are designed to compensate for that loss and wing flex in flight.

The fully loaded wings in any event, can support the entire fuselage, belly tank, pax, cargo etc.  Wings generally hold 70% of the entire fuel load.

Burning that centre tank first, in turn, reduces strain on the wing roots though less wind bending movement.



Re: 9/11 Debate

Reply #284
9:37:46 A.M.: Flight 77 crashes into The Pentagon.

9:25:46 A.M.: Dept of Transportation grounded all civil aircraft.

Roger that?