Post Game passion: AFL 2021 Rd 6: Carlton vs Brisbane

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Re: Post Game passion: AFL 2021 Rd 6: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #90 – April 25, 2021, 10:07:04 am

Quote from: Gointocarlton on April 25, 2021, 09:54:50 am

With all due respect Pauly, your (or my) holistic view or expectation on finals counts for very little, Cain "fast Eddy" Liddle's does however as decisions will be based on his not ours. Ill also add that your (or my) expectations are not mirrored by a very very (that's two verys) large portion of the Carlton faithful and the media.

The media know we are a soft target, and an easy, well rating story. One reason why I like Daniel Hoyne and those of his ilk is that you can some kind of balanced, sensible analysis without the emotional dribble that you get from the Kane Cornes of this world.

Carlton presently has 80,000 members. I would never claim to be able to speak on their behalf. This forum has 900 members ? And of those 900, maybe 50 are what you would describe as regular posters. If you take all the other forums, social media etc., it's still a small % of the total membership.

My hope is that Liddle has learned something from Peggy O'Neal and Gale, and that his engineering a resurrection of a proper VFL side indicates that he understands the long game, and that he understands that more destabilising change will simply perpetuate the boom-bust cycle of the last 20 years. a cycle that has been way more bust than boom. We'll know soon enough what his priorities are and whether he has real coglioni.

The first 60 seconds of Fagan's post match presser are worth listening. Don't punish the current mob and heap unnecessary pressure on them for the sins of the past.

Re: Post Game passion: AFL 2021 Rd 6: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #91 – April 25, 2021, 10:07:36 am

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on April 25, 2021, 09:05:50 am

The angst is probably due to the repetition in our losses.. 5 goal bursts from the opposition, same opposition players burning us ie Rich and poor defensive and contesting in those vital minutes. What has really changed or improved from the last season or two?.. Some supporters now want to cling onto honourable losses for comfort but can't confront reality...thats bottom team thinking.

Only thing that's changed is competitiveness. Rather than the last of competitiveness, 100pt losses, 9% winning record in the last 50 games, we've only lost by over 5 goals twice and at 45% under Teague. By the far the 2nd best record of a coach this century. Stops there though. Other than that nothing has changed. We still don't want work hard enough, lack a win to win, and can't get motivated on a consistent basis. Bad culture hasn't budged. The results under Teague tells me the players are good enough to be competitive with anyone but don't want to do the hard work required to go from a 18-20 point loser to actually win. They seems happy just being competitive and collect the pay cheque. That changed can only be player driven.

We need to shift through the playing list, work out which players simply don't have the hunger to succeed, regardless of ability, and phase them out of the club. Keep the workers almost regardless of ability. I assume Murphy, Eddie and Levi will call it quits this year. Right now we recruit players, perfectly good attitudes, decent skills then the culture "Carltonises" them. That culture, drive, will to win, lack of real motivation is the difference between us being a mere competitor and a good side. Until that changes we go no-where. Look as any sport, soon as a competitor loses that hunger their performance falls away dramatically. Boxing is a good example. Same in my sport.

Re: Post Game passion: AFL 2021 Rd 6: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #92 – April 25, 2021, 10:16:25 am

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on April 25, 2021, 09:56:39 am

I don't see progress, I look at Melbourne, Swans, Dogs etc and I see progress.
We look the same, nothing is changing, even the pattern of our losses.
How many wins would we have had with Melbourne's draw? ..

I see consolidation of good habits, but I am worried about bad traits becoming entrenched.

None of those 3 clubs went for panicked, knee jerk solutions. Dogs won the flag then missed finals for 3 years straight. Dees finished 17th in 2019, then 9th last year. Progress is not linear, nor does it fit into a pre ordained time frame.

Re: Post Game passion: AFL 2021 Rd 6: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #93 – April 25, 2021, 10:17:09 am

Quote from: laj on April 25, 2021, 10:07:36 am

Only thing that's changed is competitiveness. Rather than the last of competitiveness, 100pt losses, 9% winning record in the last 50 games, we've only lost by over 5 goals twice and at 45% under Teague. By the far the 2nd best record of a coach this century. Stops there though. Other than that nothing has changed. We still don't want work hard enough, lack a win to win, and can't get motivated on a consistent basis. Bad culture hasn't budged. The results under Teague tells me the players are good enough to be competitive with anyone but don't want to do the hard work required to go from a 18-20 point loser to actually win. They seems happy just being competitive and collect the pay cheque. That changed can only be player driven.

We need to shift through the playing list, work out which players simply don't have the hunger to succeed, regardless of ability, and phase them out of the club. Keep the workers almost regardless of ability. I assume Murphy, Eddie and Levi will call it quits this year. Right now we recruit players, perfectly good attitudes, decent skills then the culture "Carltonises" them. That culture, drive, will to win, lack of real motivation is the difference between us being a mere competitor and a good side. Until that changes we go no-where. Look as any sport, soon as a competitor loses that hunger their performance falls away dramatically. Boxing is a good example. Same in my sport.

We lack a hard edge in many players, it's not thuggery but that ability to lift and dig deeper much like a marathon runner who can't get themselves to the finish line.
Walsh has it, Lachie Neale chased and pressured on one leg, Robbo cracked in with an eyeball hanging out but a lot of our players won't give that bit extra when the pressure goes up. Gut run till you drop, run back cover for your mate... Robbo on Harry summed it up for me.
Call it culture or pride but not many of ours will bleed for the club..

Re: Post Game passion: AFL 2021 Rd 6: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #94 – April 25, 2021, 10:20:12 am

Quote from: Gointocarlton on April 25, 2021, 09:59:00 am

Melb Goodwin since 2016
WB Beveridge since 2015
Syd Longmire sinde 2011
All have had some lows

Had some lows and some highs.. Name our highs..

Re: Post Game passion: AFL 2021 Rd 6: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #95 – April 25, 2021, 10:29:51 am

Quote from: Gointocarlton on April 24, 2021, 11:02:35 pm

Again, at the ground (I was at the Coventry end level 2 in a pocket),

We sat on level 2 at the other end and I’ve never been surrounded by such a revolting group of Carlton supporters - there were maybe 5-6
Small Pockets of abusive, revolting Carlton supporters. It was embarrassing. Had my child with me and was really downhearted to see how horrible our supporters can be. Every club has them but there seemed to be a real bogan unwashed element last night - lots of abusive swearing down at the players. Not sure if this was a section of general admission Carlton members as previously we’ve had reserved seating so maybe they get another area at the moment?

Really felt ashamed last night. Lots of Middle Aged guys need to get themselves to therapy as their screaming and swearing in front of kids for 2 hours is not healthy.

Re: Post Game passion: AFL 2021 Rd 6: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #96 – April 25, 2021, 10:30:45 am

Interesting comment by Matthew Lloyd regarding Eddie Betts on the footy show.
Basically saying that time is probably up for Eddie.

That wasn't so much the issue as the fact that Lloyd prefaced it with the comment "I may be getting into dangerous territory here....".
Given his brother's role at the club is there some difference of opinion over issues surrounding selection.

Re: Post Game passion: AFL 2021 Rd 6: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #97 – April 25, 2021, 10:32:01 am

I think most folks would agree with PAULY, that we're 'not far off'... it's just that we've been 'not far off' for 'too fckn long!' That's probably what frustrates most folks - that we were close last year but do not seem to have taken the next step, which all the hype -- from media and club -- suggested. And the problem with that is many other clubs have incrementally improved... so we all start speculating as to why haven't we?

Clearly the club has also questioned 'why' hence the appointment of Woosha to help out. I hope it is the first of a few moves in the coaching dept... but not the senior coach, let's at least give him some important injured played back into the side to work with, and obviously that will rid him of the non-hackers.

We've clearly brought some of the dysfunctions from last year, into this year by:
*keeping the very same assistant coaches as last year... in fact it seems we've had the same core group forever, *sentimentality - nursing blokes to milestones, *playing blokes on reputation when out of form, *playing blokes who are clearly injured/hampered, *playing blokes out of position and *inadequate training/emphasis on defensive hardness/ethic.

So, in the hunt for 'why' folks naturally question loads of things, some erroneous some on the money. Coaches, development, culture, recruiting, football department & Board all come under scrutiny. And rightly so. Right now our form is bottom 4... to amortize present results/form over the season will see us with around 6 wins for the year... gulp.

However... putting aside the dysfunction we've successfully brought from last year to this year, I see light at the end of the tunnel when considering:

*Our injury count to key personnel is more than many. *We've a few new blokes getting used to their team mates (Williams, Fogarty & Saad in particular). *We have some good prospects in Philp, Stocker, Kemp, Carroll, De Koning, Parks, Ramsay and Honey. (Question marks remain over: Dow, LOB, Setterfield, McGovern, Kennedy etc.,). *We're 'in' most games.

Although yesterday was a bitter pill, especially considering -- much like last year -- we won 3 quarters, there was much less niceness and more hardness / intensity... and I suspect we could maintain that hardness for longer if we had the personnel and fewer passengers (obviously). Every game this year we've had at least 3-5 passengers + played blokes out of position. At least yesterday we freed up SPS and although the results were mixed, I bet he would grow into an important mid... just needs to learn to kick further than 8.2 metres.

I just hope that the changes for the cheats.com.au game, do not include Cuningham or Stocker. They must be persisted with. I've been a critic of Cuningham but the recent emphasis on his defensive game, I believe, showed yesterday. Although still somewhat the Cameo Kid, and he had plenty of mates yesterday, his overall game was better and looks very dangerous when he has aggot in hand. We need his disposal skills as well.

Re: Post Game passion: AFL 2021 Rd 6: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #98 – April 25, 2021, 10:44:24 am

Quote from: Baggers on April 25, 2021, 10:32:01 am

I think most folks would agree with PAULY, that we're 'not far off'... it's just that we've been 'not far off' for 'too fckn long!' That's probably what frustrates most folks.......................

Every time you make a significant change(s), whether it's senior coach, list rebuild, CEO, Footy Boss, you set progress further back. Some changes are unavoidable. But many are reactionary and lily-livered. If you believe the players are weak willed, and turn up their toes too easily, watch the Board and Executive capitulate when ever heat is applied. The players learn it from somewhere.

Re: Post Game passion: AFL 2021 Rd 6: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #99 – April 25, 2021, 10:46:55 am

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on April 25, 2021, 10:20:12 am

Had some lows and some highs.. Name our highs..

Not ladder position perhaps although last year, if not for a few narrow losses, we almost made the 8. Beating Geel at Geel last year was huge. Showed we can match it with best. Port after the siren last year, same. We have plenty of highs and lows. At the moment, we are a highlight reel. Convert that to consistency over 4 qtrs every week and we are contenders. Thats what's frustrating me at least, we have shown we can do it. Ill also say, the above havent undertaken the whole of club rebuild we did. We have 80K members solid finances, how many do those three have and what are their books like? Just saying. As Pauly just pointed out in Fagans presser, perhaps we need to stop tarnishing this group with the sins of the past. We continue to ride the roller coaster, hopefully we get off smiling and not chucking up in a bag.

Re: Post Game passion: AFL 2021 Rd 6: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #100 – April 25, 2021, 10:49:23 am

Quote from: Micky0 on April 25, 2021, 10:29:51 am

We sat on level 2 at the other end and I’ve never been surrounded by such a revolting group of Carlton supporters - there were maybe 5-6
Small Pockets of abusive, revolting Carlton supporters. It was embarrassing. Had my child with me and was really downhearted to see how horrible our supporters can be. Every club has them but there seemed to be a real bogan unwashed element last night - lots of abusive swearing down at the players. Not sure if this was a section of general admission Carlton members as previously we’ve had reserved seating so maybe they get another area at the moment?

Really felt ashamed last night. Lots of Middle Aged guys need to get themselves to therapy as their screaming and swearing in front of kids for 2 hours is not healthy.

Thats not good. I was at the end amongst all the Brisbane supporters and it was pretty good I have to say. All the Carlton and Brisbane people were very well behaved and respectful. Im sorry you had to experience that.

Re: Post Game passion: AFL 2021 Rd 6: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #101 – April 25, 2021, 10:53:01 am

Quote from: Lods on April 25, 2021, 10:30:45 am

Interesting comment by Matthew Lloyd regarding Eddie Betts on the footy show.
Basically saying that time is probably up for Eddie.

That wasn't so much the issue as the fact that Lloyd prefaced it with the comment "I may be getting into dangerous territory here....".
Given his brother's role at the club is there some difference of opinion over issues surrounding selection.

I say to Matthew who was to replace Eddie like for like this week? I say to Matthew watch the reserves and study our injury list. Preface your comments with that Matthew. Yes Eddie's, Murph's , Levi's times are up, who replaces them this week?

Re: Post Game passion: AFL 2021 Rd 6: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #102 – April 25, 2021, 11:09:25 am

Quote from: Lods on April 25, 2021, 07:39:58 am

One of the problems with looking at 'what might have beens' though is that you can't look at in the isolation of only our team.
You have to look at the other sides near misses and 'stuff ups' as well.
You then also have to factor the change to the game that might have occurred if the ball went back to the centre rather than being kicked out.
It s a Butterfly effect.

And importantly if a side is pressed by a team coming at them, rather than having a comfortable margin, do they lift their game to meet, and see off,that challenge.
Port last week seemed to do only as much as they had to for us to be kept at bay.

Great post! Agree totally.

Was at the game and as it was in our last 2 losses our opposition only do what they need at the time to contain us and sadly i think the better teams know if they are 3 goals plus up on us in the last they can control the tempo control the game and get the 4 points.

We are not capable of scoring a fast run of goals that the better teams can. Our scoring is hard work and labored - so get a small gap on us in the last and its game over.

Re: Post Game passion: AFL 2021 Rd 6: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #103 – April 25, 2021, 11:13:09 am

Quote from: Micky0 on April 25, 2021, 10:29:51 am

We sat on level 2 at the other end and I’ve never been surrounded by such a revolting group of Carlton supporters - there were maybe 5-6
Small Pockets of abusive, revolting Carlton supporters. It was embarrassing. Had my child with me and was really downhearted to see how horrible our supporters can be. Every club has them but there seemed to be a real bogan unwashed element last night - lots of abusive swearing down at the players. Not sure if this was a section of general admission Carlton members as previously we’ve had reserved seating so maybe they get another area at the moment?

Really felt ashamed last night. Lots of Middle Aged guys need to get themselves to therapy as their screaming and swearing in front of kids for 2 hours is not healthy.

I was level 2 as well behind the goals and didn't hear anything like that.

Re: Post Game passion: AFL 2021 Rd 6: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #104 – April 25, 2021, 11:18:26 am

Quote from: madbluboy on April 25, 2021, 11:13:09 am

I was level 2 as well behind the goals and didn't hear anything like that.

So which ends are we talking about? Bris Cheer Squad or Carlton Cheer Squad? I was level 2 behind the goals Brisbane Cheer Squad end.