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Topic: Congratulation Sam Walsh - B+F winner 2021 (Read 6308 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Congratulation Sam Walsh - B+F winner 2021

Reply #30
I know of a club where a big name polled the most votes in the final game of the year in a game which he struggled bumping his way into 10th to trigger his 50k bonus. Whispers all around the room , the player was embarrassed especially as he told all his team mates before of his trigger.
Sure, the exception is the norm, year after year after year! :o

Believing that is another example of a choice you make that affects your perception of the world! ;)
The Force Awakens!

Re: Congratulation Sam Walsh - B+F winner 2021

Reply #31
Oh Corey McKernan.

Despite a slow first few rounds he had an outstanding year in 2002. 40 goals on top of having to carry the entire ruck duties most of the year, due to injuries, where he was terrific around the ground. Thought that one was obvious that year at the time.


Re: Congratulation Sam Walsh - B+F winner 2021

Reply #33
What happened?
Did you expect him to go on...I didn't.
He played 19 games.
Many of those he was hardly sighted.
But he obviously performed a role that the coaches were happy with...whether that was as a decoy, or his forward pressure.
He did what was asked of him to the extent he earned votes.

Betts is only retiring because of the north Melbourne match where he hurt himself he looked done.  Before that he looked like playing to 400.

A cynic might say that his decision was made based on income he might be getting vs what he would have gotten to play on.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Congratulation Sam Walsh - B+F winner 2021

Reply #34
I wonder if Betts moved on because he was aggrieved about the Teague decision ? His reasons for taking the Geelong job could be seen as somewhat unconvincing.

Re: Congratulation Sam Walsh - B+F winner 2021

Reply #35
Betts is only retiring because of the north Melbourne match where he hurt himself he looked done.  Before that he looked like playing to 400.

A cynic might say that his decision was made based on income he might be getting vs what he would have gotten to play on.
Yep, age waits for nobody, it's a harsh reality.

People might say "But he's getting less as a part time coach than a player", but that assumes he only doing one part time job!

Anyway, in several cases recently, Simmo, sMurph, Betts and Kreuzer, the time was right for the club to move on, it is not like it came as a shock even if some had trouble accepting it!
The Force Awakens!

Re: Congratulation Sam Walsh - B+F winner 2021

Reply #36
I know of a club where a big name polled the most votes in the final game of the year in a game which he struggled bumping his way into 10th to trigger his 50k bonus. Whispers all around the room , the player was embarrassed especially as he told all his team mates before of his trigger.

The B&F bonusses still come under the cap.  So, it would make more sense for the award to be manipulated to drop someone OUT of the top 10 (or top 3), to avoid a bonus and save on $ and TPP.   Doesnt make a lot of sense to manipulate to push someone into the money for no valid reason

 

Re: Congratulation Sam Walsh - B+F winner 2021

Reply #37
I didn't realise they are supposed to sit down at the end of the season and issue votes retrospectively as per the list management guidelines.

Perhaps they just give votes on the day when and where it is deserved?

If you think Plowman getting votes is corrupt, then Walsh winning must be corrupt as well, you can't have it both ways. If Plowman's votes came undeservedly, they came from someone who deserved them, maybe from Walsh but maybe also from Weitering or McKay. You can't know, you are free to arbitrarily choose a bias, but it is still a bias!

Most of the voters were sacked at the end of the season so who did the votes; Sayers and Diesel?

I think most supporters would agree that Walsh and Weitering were our two best players and would have McKay, Cripps, Ed Curnow or Saad in their top five, taking into account games played of course. In fact, all of those players were in the top six in our Jim Park Award.  Kennedy and Newman make the top ten in the Jim Park Award, displacing Plowman and Betts.

If the voting was manipulated, why would the beneficiaries be Plowman and Betts?  What would be the point?

It's hard to argue against Walsh, Weitering, McKay, Cripps, Ed Curnow and Saad leading the voting; their performances were overt , easily recognised and they played most games.  It becomes harder for the average punter to recognise players who are following instructions and unobtrusively carrying out selfless acts. 
“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball

Re: Congratulation Sam Walsh - B+F winner 2021

Reply #38
Some of us see a player outnumbered but never giving up, making an effort to win with some success against the odds on nearly every occasion, sacrificing their own game for the benefit of those around them. ;D

Others see the same player in the same set of events being defeated over and over again, and getting lucky and winning a battle occasionally. :o

Only one perspective offers some consideration of the real world circumstance, I don't believe in luck, but I do believe hard work delivers a better outcome!
The Force Awakens!

Re: Congratulation Sam Walsh - B+F winner 2021

Reply #39
Only 3 onballers in the Top 10. Is that a reflection of our weak mid or does it show that it is an award for the role players?  I assume the latter.

Re: Congratulation Sam Walsh - B+F winner 2021

Reply #40
Most of the voters were sacked at the end of the season so who did the votes; Sayers and Diesel?

I think most supporters would agree that Walsh and Weitering were our two best players and would have McKay, Cripps, Ed Curnow or Saad in their top five, taking into account games played of course. In fact, all of those players were in the top six in our Jim Park Award.  Kennedy and Newman make the top ten in the Jim Park Award, displacing Plowman and Betts.

If the voting was manipulated, why would the beneficiaries be Plowman and Betts?  What would be the point?

It's hard to argue against Walsh, Weitering, McKay, Cripps, Ed Curnow and Saad leading the voting; their performances were overt , easily recognised and they played most games.  It becomes harder for the average punter to recognise players who are following instructions and unobtrusively carrying out selfless acts. 

The voting would have to be done on a week to week basis by the coaches and the results filed away. ;)  ;D
You wouldn't remember much about Round 1 at the end of August.
Any fiddling would have to take place post season and not involve the coaches at all.

Kennedy and Newman polled well in our Jim Park
Kennedy played only 13 games
Newman played 14 games

The way the CSC (Jim Park) award is structured it depends a lot on numbers voting each week and a the ability for there to be a wide variance in vote allocation.
A big number one week for a player who impressed in a week where a lot of folks voted would be possible.
A tighter voting system would apply in the CFC Best and Fairest and number of games played would be a more significant factor.

Re: Congratulation Sam Walsh - B+F winner 2021

Reply #41
Only 3 onballers in the Top 10. Is that a reflection of our weak mid or does it show that it is an award for the role players?  I assume the latter.
 
 Yes, it's not a midfielders award like the Brownlow, Weitering only has 3 Brownlow votes for his whole career!
The Force Awakens!

Re: Congratulation Sam Walsh - B+F winner 2021

Reply #42
Deservedly so !
And the sackings will continue until Plowman doesn’t get a vote…!

It's more a mark of how far we've fallen. Would Plowman get a list spot at any other club right now? Not in a million years.

Yet he's not just getting a game but getting pats on the back from our coaches despite the numerous obvious deficiencies in his game and never dropped no matter how poorly he performs. Think back to the Dean, Sexton, SOS, McKay, Christou, etc. or the Bruce Doull / Geoff Southby days.... our standards are woeful by comparison.

Intercepting in the back half is more important now than it ever was back in those days so having poor decision makers / turnoverers down there is a problem I'm hoping the new coaching staff come with a level of intolerance for. I've had enough of hearing Carlton supporters making excuses and accepting mediocrity.

Re: Congratulation Sam Walsh - B+F winner 2021

Reply #43
The voting would have to be done on a week to week basis by the coaches and the results filed away. ;)  ;D
You wouldn't remember much about Round 1 at the end of August.
Any fiddling would have to take place post season and not involve the coaches at all.

Kennedy and Newman polled well in our Jim Park
Kennedy played only 13 games
Newman played 14 games

The way the CSC (Jim Park) award is structured it depends a lot on numbers voting each week and a the ability for there to be a wide variance in vote allocation.
A big number one week for a player who impressed in a week where a lot of folks voted would be possible.
A tighter voting system would apply in the CFC Best and Fairest and number of games played would be a more significant factor.

The senior coach and three assistants cast votes after each game.  Each coach can award from one to four votes to every player they feel has performed at the expected level or above.  After a good win, votes could be awarded to most of the team while few players would receive votes after an effort like round 22.  That's a little like the Jim Park Award but the maximum of four votes would minimise the reward for an outstanding performance.  It also means that every player's performance is assessed rather than just focusing on the players in the spotlight for better or more showy play.

Plowman got 86 votes from19 games meaning that he averaged just over one vote from each coach.  If he's routinely assessed as playing trademark games and gets a couple of above expectations and an outstanding (say Rounds 1 or 3), 86 points is done and dusted.

Check out how well he played against Richmond in Round 1:

https://www.carltonfc.com.au/video/885968/afl-r1-plowman-weitering-get-their-job-done?videoId=885968&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1616313490001

And that's pretty well his benchmark.



“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball

Re: Congratulation Sam Walsh - B+F winner 2021

Reply #44
Not really. The award is a joke and pretty much fixed.

1. Not all clubs even award B+F bonuses. Ross Lyon ditched it when he was coaching.
2. Not all coaches, if any, would be aware of player triggers even if they did.
3. Just because it might've happened once, at one club, doesn't mean it happens at every club, all the time.
4. Different voting systems make things much more difficult to manipulate, and easy to catch out excessive votes.
5. All that being said, and i could go on, lets simply look at this.

Jim Park top 10 vs (Club B+F placing)
5895 - Walsh, Sam (217) - (1st)
3205 - Weitering, Jacob (163) - (2nd)
1832 - Curnow, Edward (380) - (5th)
1634 - Cripps, Patrick (5) - (4th)
1538 - Saad, Adam (5) - (6th)
1538 - McKay, Harrison (0) - (3rd)
1457 - Jones, Liam (0) - (8th)
1152 - Kennedy, Matthew (37) - (unknown)
1024 - Silvagni, Jack (0) - (10th)
765 - Newman, Nicholas (226) - (unknown)

FWIW,
Plowman was 7th and finished 17th in Jim Park
Betts was 9th and finished 12th in Jim Park


Reading between the lines, you are suggesting that Teague looked after his mate Betts to sneak him into the top 10....even though we had him 12th.

If thats incorrect, then your theory is Plowman is the one we give extra votes too (which holds more water based on results than Betts) but that theory doesn't work either because Plowman has been getting more votes than we expect over multiple coaches now and that kind of collusion is something we are not capable of without it being plastered all over the front page.

So i go back to theory 1.....and answer your other question as to why he was delisted. I think that answer is a relatively simple one. He has played 350-odd games and turns 35 next month. Age catches up with everyone!