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Re: The Defence

Reply #15
In that video clip when Jones jogs across the CHB, our left-hand HFF, Wing & HBF has been sucked across the centre into the contest way before Jones floats across.

If they want Jones and Weitering to keep intercept marking those utilities who operate in the flank to flank zone need to float back to make up defensive numbers, or else at every contest we'll be outnumbered in defence.

If we want to maintain numbers at the contest, then it's up to our forwards to float down and potentially leave their opponents behind, but we better stop bombing the ball into F50 if we do that!

Owies gave us a perfect example of that concept of rolling back to assist in D50, and it stood out like dogs balls because we just never see Carlton players doing it!

Does all this sound familiar?
The Force Awakens!

Re: The Defence

Reply #16
In that video clip when Jones jogs across the CHB, our left-hand HFF, Wing & HBF has been sucked across the centre into the contest way before Jones floats across.

If they want Jones and Weitering to keep intercept marking those utilities who operate in the flank to flank zone need to float back to make up defensive numbers, or else at every contest we'll be outnumbered in defence.

If we want to maintain numbers at the contest, then it's up to our forwards to float down and potentially leave their opponents behind, but we better stop bombing the ball into F50 if we do that!

Owies gave us a perfect example of that, and it stood out like dogs balls because we just never see Carlton players doing it!

Does all this sound familiar?
Spot on, this is what happens every week.........ie I saw Stocker last week forced to man Bruce up deep down back...real smart.

Re: The Defence

Reply #17
Spot on, this is what happens every week.........ie I saw Stocker last week forced to man Bruce up deep down back...real smart.
Carlton fans have to be more cynical about the motives of guys like Healy and Lyon, the week before we play the Dees they are basically calling for Jones and Weitering to stop intercept marking, that is the direct consequence of doing what Healy and Lyon demand, stop doing what Lever/May do.

I'd assert that would be a worse outcome, and the best case is to have the utilities even up the numbers and leave Jones and Weitering doing a Lever/May!

PS; Above I stated what Jones did was wrong, but not wrong because of action, wrong because of location. He was in no-mans land, not deep enough off the stoppage to get an intercept mark, and too far forward to get back on his opponent. A clearing kick was going over his head and short kick wouldn't give him time to close. All he had to do was push back 10m and he'd be in a better position for covering both options and for a turnover spread if we won the footy. Of course if one of our flanks or wing had dropped D50 side across CHB that space he was guarding would have been covered forcing the Dogs to run the footy!
The Force Awakens!

Re: The Defence

Reply #18

For the plowman bashers keep an eye on how these plays both unfold.  You'll notice he's stuck covering two men by himself in both circumstances.   It happens a lot and thats why the opposition score through his man frequently.   Its not because he's crap, its because he's covering too many. 

Thank you.

I was going to say the same thing. Plowman always gets the short straw and covers for blokes. That's why he polls well in the best and fairest, because he does team things and puts amaretto on his back in the process...
But continues to do them.

@LP
Sure Jones might be playing to instruction...(I doubt it because being 25m out from the contest is in no man's land. Can't tackle players coming out of the contest because he's too far away.....but he's too close so the ball can still be kicked over his head.)
But...even if he is playing to instruction...he needs to be smart enough to know the risk/reward result of his positioning.

If it comes on, we get the turnover, great...but chance of us getting a turnover from THAT position is highly unlikely as I mentioned before.

If it doesn't come off, then we pay the ultimate price more often than not...a goal. So he's got to play the %s.
If that was plowman in that position, you can bet your butt he'd run back to cover.

Re: The Defence

Reply #19
Maybe if C. Curnow gets back, McGovern can be that intercept marker across half back. Kemp also when fit and ready can fit the role but both him and Parks are still learning the game and you can't expect them to be the next Jeremy Howe yet..

Re: The Defence

Reply #20
@LP
Sure Jones might be playing to instruction...(I doubt it because being 25m out from the contest is in no man's land. Can't tackle players coming out of the contest because he's too far away.....but he's too close so the ball can still be kicked over his head.)
But...even if he is playing to instruction...he needs to be smart enough to know the risk/reward result of his positioning.
As I stated, what he did in that instance was wrong, but worng in implementation not necessarily in tactic if he is instructed to intercept at all costs.

If he was instructed to hold that ground at that spacing it was tactically wrong, but I'd assert the bigger error was for the fat side players to get sucked across the middle into the contest was a even bigger evil. I note our VFL coach stated as much about LOB last weekend, failing to hold his ground wide of the contest, it's a fundamental error.

A bigger question for Carlton fans might be. Are we doing this because of the shortcomings of our midfield, do our outside players feel obliged to get in and help the slower types in Cripps, Walsh and Ed? Do we have the midfield balance wrong?

What Healy and Lyon complain about is a smokescreen, a diversion from the truth, I've no idea why but we can speculate.
The Force Awakens!

Re: The Defence

Reply #21
As a Plowman basher I think he has been okay the last couple of weeks however....

From level 3 at Marvel I watched him closely against the dogs and he was deliberately giving his man 15 metres to dare them to kick it to him, backing himself to get to the contest and spoil.

That works fine if you're playing on fringe players but that's not going to work on the elite guys who always smash him
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: The Defence

Reply #22
As a Plowman basher I think he has been okay the last couple of weeks however....

From level 3 at Marvel I watched him closely against the dogs and he was deliberately giving his man 15 metres to dare them to kick it to him, backing himself to get to the contest and spoil.

That works fine if you're playing on fringe players but that's not going to work on the elite guys who always smash him

Its also a tactic to get your opponent further away from goal.
Give them some space and they will increase it.... close up that space again... and they will increase it again. Eventually they are up around the wing and will not hurt you on the scoreboard.

Re: The Defence

Reply #23
What Healy and Lyon complain about is a smokescreen, a diversion from the truth, I've no idea why but we can speculate.

Where do I start with this??

I don't know what their agenda is, but they must have one. What they are talking about (although we all agree is a problem) cannot be the real problem. Why would someone be speaking the truth with no hidden agenda?

 :o  ::)  :D

Re: The Defence

Reply #24
Teague has stated many times that he wants the boys playing on instinct, and that he believes they have good skills and wants them to take advantage of that. It has been discussed that he keeps strategy and game plan mechanics to a minimum (Diesel joked when he was working for us recently that "Teaguey doesn't do too much."). One potential problem with that is too many of the players want to do the flashy stuff, and not enough want to get their hands dirty.

The other issue is that you would hope the players have good instincts if you want them playing on that level. I think Teague has gone too far in the freedom direction, and maybe not all the boys have good enough instincts, and may need more comprehensive instructions.
Solo piano

Re: The Defence

Reply #25
Where do I start with this??

I don't know what their agenda is, but they must have one. What they are talking about (although we all agree is a problem) cannot be the real problem. Why would someone be speaking the truth with no hidden agenda?
That's where your gross assumption goes wrong, you assume we agree! ;)

As mentioned earlier, the stark difference between what the critics say and what a club like Melbourne do is exposed in the two very video clips they offer as a comparison between Carlton and Melbourne, as evidence those clips are not referentially consistent with the verbal complaints and critiques that Healy and Lyon make. It's obvious that Melbourne have excess defensive numbers, they even highlight it the Melbourne numbers in the clip!

That observation by the way is quite consistent with what both of us have been saying in defence of Plowman for weeks and weeks now. If Lyon and Healy are deemed to be right we must be at least partially wrong about Plowman.

I doubt we are wrong about Plowman, and I'm sure no matter what Jones or Doc do they more often than not will lose if the contest is 4 versus 6, regardless of where they position themselves!
The Force Awakens!

Re: The Defence

Reply #26
Lyon is crowing because the Dees are flying and its down back where they have improved so he can use May and Lever to compare with our defense which is still work in progress and not settled.
You usually have to build a good defensive unit first before you can really push up the ladder and we are still getting the pieces together with newbies like Stocker, Parks learning the ropes.
Marchbank is probably the missing link in terms of inbetween size defenders to help cover for Jones wandering around and like I said it may be time when McGovern is fit and maybe Charlie is back to bite the bullet and get McGovern down back in that Jeremy Howe type role so Jones can stay stay at home more.
Plowman does get some tough gigs because he is that inbetween size defender at 191cm and its probably time some of that work got shared with other players ie McGovern 191cm and Parks 192cm when he is ready and learned more about senior AFL footy.

Re: The Defence

Reply #27
A bit off topic I know, but related in a way.

AFL / AFL Media and AFL Coaching has become so nepotistic I can't trust any of it any more. The AFL Executive was hell bent on breaking this trend, bloated past players earning bloated wages for life in burgeoning jobs for the boys scenarios. Now it seems the AFL has given up and put it in the too hard basket, and is perhaps in a situation that is even worse than before, of course it may never have been a genuine attempt!

Noble will be the next to fall!

Fans will claim that is proof blokes like Noble, Bolton and Fagan are high risk and are likely to fail. But I'd assert they fail not purely because of ability, but because they are working within a system that doesn't favour them, they are outsiders, they will always be outsiders! The AFL perhaps missed a trick, in that it should have put them all at one club and removed the influence of the old boys! Maybe this is Tasmania's way in!

How do you get access to an unequivocal unbiased opinion in the AFL media?

This whole thread is built on the argy-bargy between two former Melbourne FC greats, the week before we play them!

Who should we trust?
The Force Awakens!

Re: The Defence

Reply #28
You can keep moving the goalposts until doomsday finding a reason(s) why coaches fail. Plenty of coaches that have played at the top level have failed. If the old boys were that keen for their mates to coach, there's plenty of them around. Wasn't the Shinboner of the Century on the committee that selected Noble ?

There is no logical reason why someone who has played up to SANFL, WAFL etc. level can't be a successful coach. Certain dubious types whose idea of football knowledge is essentially a bunch of rote learned sporting cliches from 1973 will tell you that the players won't "respect" someone who hasn't played AFL, but if that's the case I suggest the problem is the immaturity and naivety of the players themselves. Why would they respect this type of person if they are an assistant coach, instead of senior coach ? What's the difference ?
Solo piano

Re: The Defence

Reply #29
That's where your gross assumption goes wrong, you assume we agree! ;)

What we all agree on is that what Jones did was wrong.

If you can't agree on that, then i don't know what to say.