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Topic: Teague - Selecting Battlers over talent. (Read 834 times) previous topic - next topic
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Teague - Selecting Battlers over talent.

SOS once said in an interview, that it’s easy to put a side together that finishes 8th. That comment has always been in the back of my mind when looking at out playing list.
When I look at our team, we put on the ground against Melbourne I can see what he means. When we are putting players out there who were chosen as rookies / after pick 50, and leaving our high picks in the twos, I question the team selection and the coaches bias for a particular type of player.

Cottrell, Gibbons, Parks, Owies all rookie players over the past 3 years, all getting games ahead of more highly talented players. Add to that Pittonet who was taken at 50.

Look at the rookies this week,
Cottrell 15 poss, 2 tackles, 330 Mg. 79% game time while playing on the wing
Runs all day, gives his all, but disposal is average and is a straight-line player with no tricks.

Parks 5 poss, 0 tackles, 113 Mg, 77% game time, playing Back Pocket.
Lukes worst game and was shown up for what he is, a tryer at best. All he’s done of note is laid two good tackles while playing seniors. Seemed lost all day and is too easily pushed off the ball. Supposed to be an intercept marker but has only taken 2 in a game and only 1 mark this week, with plenty of ball coming down all game long to be involved.

Gibbons, 9 poss, 4 tackles, 1 goal, 160 Mg 71% game time, playing half forward.
While I realise he was the sub, Gibbons still played just under ¾ game time. Seems to be too busy telling everyone else what to do and not getting involved in the play himself.

Owies 6 poss, 7 tackles, 1 goal 2 points, 86% game time.
I actually like Owies and think he has another couple of step to go up. This game was a poor one though, good pressure, but must take a clean ball when it sits up in front of goal, and has to make the easy set shots.

When you have Dow, O’Brien, SPS, deKoning even a Ramsay, dare I say Williamson not playing seniors, you need to question quite a few things.

Are these players desperate enough to lift their games?

Is the coach only picking players who are battlers because that’s the type of player he was?

Are we putting faith into our younger players and letting them play through their mistake?

Lets face it, finals are pretty much out of the question and when we start getting players back from injury they will take the sports of the rookies, when really it should have been our young draft picks.

Put SPS on a half forward flank instead of Gibbons, at least you know he will come at the ball off half back. The look to do something with it.

Get Williamson in the backline and back him in, take away his run out at all costs attitude that seems to have taken over his game. Use his boot and natural aggression to stick a man all game long.

Use O’Brien on a wing get him running up and back, he is a genuine two way runner which we need. He is a confidence player so back him in, say Lachie he’s a block of 4 games, barring injury you will play all four and we will judge you on the four, so play through mistakes and use your one wood which is your run and link up and let’s see the skill that got you taken at 10.

Dow is a quality player who doesn’t have the coaches confidence. Look back at 2019 and Paddy was up around the 20 touches a game while Bolton was coaching, Teague takes over Paddy gets put to a flank and his production dies. He was drafted as a midfielder play him there. Look at Melbourne midfield, all capable of bursting away from the pack, us, Walsh as two on him, Cripps got caught a lot, where that’s Dows strength.

The sooner we get deKoning into the senior side the better!

Re: Teague - Selecting Battlers over talent.

Reply #1
I don't think Teague is selecting players based on a mini-me principle. I think the selections are :

- horses for courses (choosing based on opposition and game day list balance)
- reward for effort - if you do what we ask of you, you're in
- simply rotating through the entire list and giving them all a go, to see who sinks or swims, in preparation for some more delistings, trades etc., at the end of the year.
Solo piano

Re: Teague - Selecting Battlers over talent.

Reply #2
SOS once said in an interview, that it’s easy to put a side together that finishes 8th. That comment has always been in the back of my mind when looking at out playing list.

Agree with a lot of what you said - especially, about struggling to really do anything while we have Cottrell, Gibbons, Cas etc in our 22 - hopefully this goes away once we get a few back from injuries and a few more prestige kids come on (incl Dow, Obrien and SPS that you pointed out)

I always took the quote above (re building a list to finish 8th) to be a shot at teams that took short cuts.  Think St Kilda bringing in middle of the road free-agents like Hill, Ryder and Jones.  Or teams that drafted for immediate impact (think Rhys Palmer in his ealry days or Sam Powell Pepper).   Sure, these teams get a short term rise, and the media falls all over them, but in the long run, are they really winning anything?

I always thought SOS had looked long term, rather than short term fix.  But, maybe his good intentions were wasted on the specific picks he (or others made).
He picked young kids with massive upside - but maybe Dow, Obrien, SPS, Cunningham werent the right ones
He focused on younger free agents, who still had upside, but maybe McGovern, Martin, Williams werent the right ones

I will always support his philospophy, maybe the execution just fell over at the last step (the actual picking of the individuals)

Re: Teague - Selecting Battlers over talent.

Reply #3
@raydan...
Sorry mate but you seem to be suffering from memory loss.
Go back and rewatch R2 vs the Pies and then you'll see why we play the players we do.

That side have no effort in r2 and was filed with a bunch of primadonnas. Since then teague had been pushing the effort gets you games barrow....and with good reason. We cannot accept substandard effort.

Once the players you talk about give that effort then they will be back in the side.  I wouldn't hold my breath though.

Re: Teague - Selecting Battlers over talent.

Reply #4
I don't think you can play Plowman, Saad, Docherty, Williams and Newman in the same team.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: Teague - Selecting Battlers over talent.

Reply #5
@raydan...
Sorry mate but you seem to be suffering from memory loss.
Go back and rewatch R2 vs the Pies and then you'll see why we play the players we do.

That side have no effort in r2 and was filed with a bunch of primadonnas. Since then teague had been pushing the effort gets you games barrow....and with good reason. We cannot accept substandard effort.

Once the players you talk about give that effort then they will be back in the side.  I wouldn't hold my breath though.

Looking the Collingwood game, only one player got omitted the next week and that was Williamson, who did play a stinker, but Newnes, Gibbons, Murphy were just as poor, they just got a bit more of the ball but none of that three gave the effort you speak of.

My post is we have some talent on the twos who at their worst play as well as the rookie listed players we are currently playing, why not get them in and back them, give them a block of games now and say this is your time. Then guide them through their mistakes, rather than just drop them.

Re: Teague - Selecting Battlers over talent.

Reply #6
I don't think you can play Plowman, Saad, Docherty, Williams and Newman in the same team.
I suspect Williams will be back in the midfield before long, I noted they ran Doc in the midfield a couple of times at the weekend.
The Force Awakens!

Re: Teague - Selecting Battlers over talent.

Reply #7
I suspect Williams will be back in the midfield before long, I noted they ran Doc in the midfield a couple of times at the weekend.

and looked good doing it. For me Williams stays at half back with Saad, which is not that different to Docherty and Saad. Try and find a third defensive tall in the mid season draft possible.

Re: Teague - Selecting Battlers over talent.

Reply #8
Good points Raydan!

Another issue I have with our team selection is that we don't seem to want to make it difficult for the opposition defenders.  Five of our forwards on Sunday were 180cm or shorter.  Five of Melbourne's forwards (including Petracca) were 186cm or taller.  Which defence was stretched?

Yes, Cuningham was subbed early and McGovern, Charlie, McDonald, Jack, Kemp and Martin are unavailable, so we don't have many other taller options.   I'm not entirely sold on Kennedy, as I think he doesn't get nearly enough of the ball, but at least he knows how to lead and can take a mark.
“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball

Re: Teague - Selecting Battlers over talent.

Reply #9
Good points Raydan!

Another issue I have with our team selection is that we don't seem to want to make it difficult for the opposition defenders.  Five of our forwards on Sunday were 180cm or shorter.  Five of Melbourne's forwards (including Petracca) were 186cm or taller.  Which defence was stretched?

Yes, Cuningham was subbed early and McGovern, Charlie, McDonald, Jack, Kemp and Martin are unavailable, so we don't have many other taller options.   I'm not entirely sold on Kennedy, as I think he doesn't get nearly enough of the ball, but at least he knows how to lead and can take a mark.

I think that was tactical and it may have actually worked better had we got it in low, and quicker than we did.   We stuffed around with it, but when your opposition is tall, you should have the ground balls easily won and we did but only for about 10 mins.

There was only De Koning in the wings waiting to come in, and given the way Levi and Harry get in each others way, Im not sure of the merit of playing another tall who is going to get in the way a little bit.

The short forwardline was worth going with given we were a bit out heighted forward.

Their tall forwards didnt do much of note, and the weather was supposed to be a bit more wild and wet than it turned out to be which might have been the more calculated way to win the game.
Come on you Blue FLAGGERS!!

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Teague - Selecting Battlers over talent.

Reply #10
I'm with Krud, the reason why Cottrell, Gibbons, Parks, Newnes, Owies etc have got games is because those highly rated other players like SPS, Setterfield, Obrien, Dow, Cuningham and Williamson(yes later pick I know) have been putrid, both in skill, in effort and sticking their gonads into places where they might get hurt.
Teague cant trust those higher rated players to turn up and play with any intent or passion......its that simple.

Re: Teague - Selecting Battlers over talent.

Reply #11
I think that was tactical and it may have actually worked better had we got it in low, and quicker than we did.   We stuffed around with it, but when your opposition is tall, you should have the ground balls easily won and we did but only for about 10 mins.

There was only De Koning in the wings waiting to come in, and given the way Levi and Harry get in each others way, Im not sure of the merit of playing another tall who is going to get in the way a little bit.

The short forwardline was worth going with given we were a bit out heighted forward.

Their tall forwards didnt do much of note, and the weather was supposed to be a bit more wild and wet than it turned out to be which might have been the more calculated way to win the game.

The proof is in the pudding Thry.  If filling our forward line with smaller players against a team with two of the best intercept marks in the business, and with Gawn's ability to drop back into defence, was tactical, we need a new tactician  :(

Of their taller forwards, McDonald was close to best on the ground (8 AFLCA votes), Brown dragged Weitering and/or Jones up the ground and he and Weideman took marks inside 50.  While he's not a tall, Fritsch is taller than most of our forwards and he bagged 3 goals. 

We desperately needed a third tall who could lead up, keep May and Lever honest and, most importantly, convert their chances.  Moving Jones forward at the death was too little, too late.

I'm with Krud, the reason why Cottrell, Gibbons, Parks, Newnes, Owies etc have got games is because those highly rated other players like SPS, Setterfield, Obrien, Dow, Cuningham and Williamson(yes later pick I know) have been putrid, both in skill, in effort and sticking their gonads into places where they might get hurt.
Teague cant trust those higher rated players to turn up and play with any intent or passion......its that simple.

I don't think it is that simple ... and it's the coach's job to ensure that players play with intent and passion - not that I think that those players don't.  It's more a case of playing blokes where they're most suited and giving them licence to play their natural game.  Stocker wasn't outstanding but his move into the midfield showed that he has the ability to play there each week.  Will that signal the end of his career as a defender?  I doubt it.  Same with Samo.  He has been played out of position and was a different player when he was able to run through the midfield.

Willo was a fan favourite because he had a crack but now he's on the outer because his enthusiasm overrides his decision-making.  Good coaching should have had that sorted (our defensive structure, or lack thereof, doesn't help).  Parks has laid a decent bump and a good tackle but his decision-making and lack of ability have exposed him (again, our defensive structure doesn't help).  A bit more experience under his belt and decent development and he could be a player but he's not in our best seven defenders at this stage of his career.

“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball

Re: Teague - Selecting Battlers over talent.

Reply #12
I don't think you can play Plowman, Saad, Docherty, Williams and Newman in the same team.

Not unless at least one of them is in the midfield.
“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball

Re: Teague - Selecting Battlers over talent.

Reply #13
The proof is in the pudding Thry.  If filling our forward line with smaller players against a team with two of the best intercept marks in the business, and with Gawn's ability to drop back into defence, was tactical, we need a new tactician  :(

Of their taller forwards, McDonald was close to best on the ground (8 AFLCA votes), Brown dragged Weitering and/or Jones up the ground and he and Weideman took marks inside 50.  While he's not a tall, Fritsch is taller than most of our forwards and he bagged 3 goals. 

We desperately needed a third tall who could lead up, keep May and Lever honest and, most importantly, convert their chances.  Moving Jones forward at the death was too little, too late.

I don't think it is that simple ... and it's the coach's job to ensure that players play with intent and passion - not that I think that those players don't.  It's more a case of playing blokes where they're most suited and giving them licence to play their natural game.  Stocker wasn't outstanding but his move into the midfield showed that he has the ability to play there each week.  Will that signal the end of his career as a defender?  I doubt it.  Same with Samo.  He has been played out of position and was a different player when he was able to run through the midfield.

Willo was a fan favourite because he had a crack but now he's on the outer because his enthusiasm overrides his decision-making.  Good coaching should have had that sorted (our defensive structure, or lack thereof, doesn't help).  Parks has laid a decent bump and a good tackle but his decision-making and lack of ability have exposed him (again, our defensive structure doesn't help).  A bit more experience under his belt and decent development and he could be a player but he's not in our best seven defenders at this stage of his career.



Im not sure there were many other options on hand.  Last few weeks in the VFL our tallest players forward have been 184cm until De koning returned.  Playing him first up against a side sitting 8-0 was probably not going to end well, particularly if we needed the run to try and get on top via other means.

It all changes if we got torrential rain.  We didnt.  In that equation though, he picked the winning strategy.  THAT is the point.
Come on you Blue FLAGGERS!!

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Teague - Selecting Battlers over talent.

Reply #14

Of their taller forwards, McDonald was close to best on the ground (8 AFLCA votes)

I reckon McDonald enjoys playing us...