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Re: Teague Gone?

Reply #30
Nice one Pauly ;). I dont dispute development of coaches, been saying it myself for a while only to be shot down because many think coaches are just meant to know what to do, we aren't a training centre. As a football club, we are in the business of winning games of football, so how do we give ourselves the best chance of winning? We recruit the best players and hire the best coaches. If we hadn't sacked 4 coaches in the last 10 odd years, would you move Teague on to get the best coach in business?
Maybe another way of asking the question I asked earlier for a friend ( ;D ) is do we think will Teague be a four time premiership coach by the time he is 53?

As with anything involving human behaviour (the so called soft sciences) knowing when to keep and when to discard a coach is not a precise science by any means. I think we need a new starting point, which is to basically do what the Pies, Cats, Hawks, Tigers etc. have done. Evaluate Teague properly, find out things like if he is a problem, has premiership potential etc., then act based on that. I wouldn't make any decision on him until that happens.

At this point I don't see Teague as a premiership coach. But it is way too early to be making that call, and unfair on him by some margin IMO. Does anyone see Dew as a flag coach ? Longmuir ? Nicks ? Rutten ?

What gives us the best chance of winning ? Get the board in order first - more important than the coach. As outsiders we only see the tip of the iceberg, and that in itself is a big problem.

I understand the appeal of Clarkson. He is, in a way, the ultimate messiah, and therefore the ultimate temptation. I'm certainly tempted, but I just think in this instance we need to resist the temptation.

I'm not sure if I've answered all your questions. Let me know.

Re: Teague Gone?

Reply #31
As with anything involving human behaviour (the so called soft sciences) knowing when to keep and when to discard a coach is not a precise science by any means. I think we need a new starting point, which is to basically do what the Pies, Cats, Hawks, Tigers etc. have done. Evaluate Teague properly, find out things like if he is a problem, has premiership potential etc., then act based on that. I wouldn't make any decision on him until that happens.

At this point I don't see Teague as a premiership coach. But it is way too early to be making that call, and unfair on him by some margin IMO. Does anyone see Dew as a flag coach ? Longmuir ? Nicks ? Rutten ?

What gives us the best chance of winning ? Get the board in order first - more important than the coach. As outsiders we only see the tip of the iceberg, and that in itself is a big problem.

I understand the appeal of Clarkson. He is, in a way, the ultimate messiah, and therefore the ultimate temptation. I'm certainly tempted, but I just think in this instance we need to resist the temptation.

I'm not sure if I've answered all your questions. Let me know.
Fair enough, I do hate the word messiah as it has a negative connotation more often than not. As I said before, you want to hire the best people possible through proper analysis to match your strategic plan. People can see them as messiahs, I just see them as high end quality people/resources. 
2017-16th
2018-Wooden Spoon
2019-16th
2020-dare to dream? 11th is better than last I suppose
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time

Re: Teague Gone?

Reply #32
Fair enough, I do hate the word messiah as it has a negative connotation more often than not. As I said before, you want to hire the best people possible through proper analysis to match your strategic plan. People can see them as messiahs, I just see them as high end quality people/resources. 

Those are fair points. I should also add that Clarkson hasn't won a final since 2015, and they currently sit 14th.  I don't wish to start yet another coach v list debate, but these are things worth bearing in mind IMO. If you want to look at immediate form before hiring a coach, I'd just like to say that Malthouse had Pies purring in 2011 - 20W, 2L, 167.7%. Some were saying he was past it - how then do we judge Clarko ?

Re: Teague Gone?

Reply #33
Those are fair points. I should also add that Clarkson hasn't won a final since 2015, and they currently sit 14th.  I don't wish to start yet another coach v list debate, but these are things worth bearing in mind IMO. If you want to look at immediate form before hiring a coach, I'd just like to say that Malthouse had Pies purring in 2011 - 20W, 2L, 167.7%. Some were saying he was past it - how then do we judge Clarko ?
According to Champion Data Hawthorn are the form side of the comp based on the last 4 weeks.
2017-16th
2018-Wooden Spoon
2019-16th
2020-dare to dream? 11th is better than last I suppose
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time

Re: Teague Gone?

Reply #34
According to Champion Data Hawthorn are the form side of the comp based on the last 4 weeks.

Yep, that's fair enough. But the season is 22 games, and whilst those wins have been gritty, and impressive in their own way, it's not exactly Malthouse 2011 - like I said, we can start talking about lists etc., but maybe this isn't the place. We may need to consider other things as well - player emotions for him leaving, this weekend's game was in Tassie, which is a bit of a fortress for them etc.

Re: Teague Gone?

Reply #35
The Brisbane game a couple of weeks ago was also in Tassie.


Re: Teague Gone?

Reply #37
A point worth noting is that it seems very hard for older coaches who have had a long tenure at their current club to move house and integrate quickly and well in a new environment… think Pagan, think Malthouse, think Sheedy, makes me extra wary of Clarkson (admittedly younger than the other three)

At their original long tenure club these guys are the centre of the universe and certainly the players either fall into line or don’t last and if everyone else is in line new players are more likely to also fall into line… it’s a natural cohesion.

Put that coach into a fresh environment and stuff can hit the fan quickly…
Let’s go BIG !

Re: Teague Gone?

Reply #38
I’d have chosen Don Pyke  to replace David Teague, however given availability of candidates, I think Ross Lyon would be a good fit.

Re: Teague Gone?

Reply #39
A point worth noting is that it seems very hard for older coaches who have had a long tenure at their current club to move house and integrate quickly and well in a new environment… think Pagan, think Malthouse, think Sheedy, makes me extra wary of Clarkson (admittedly younger than the other three)

At their original long tenure club these guys are the centre of the universe and certainly the players either fall into line or don’t last and if everyone else is in line new players are more likely to also fall into line… it’s a natural cohesion.

Put that coach into a fresh environment and stuff can hit the fan quickly…

Not sure Malthouse should be on that list given he moved from WC to Coll at a similar age to what Clarkson is at now and then won a premiership.

For the record - I'm definitely in the keep Teague camp but with the Log departing early (he had until Feb to step down I think) it makes me think that Sayers wants to clearly own the process of canning / replacing Teague.

I may be jumping at shadows but my guess is that Teague's tenure will end Sunday whether Clarkson is interested or not.

Re: Teague Gone?

Reply #40
Not sure Malthouse should be on that list given he moved from WC to Coll at a similar age to what Clarkson is at now and then won a premiership.

For the record - I'm definitely in the keep Teague camp but with the Log departing early (he had until Feb to step down I think) it makes me think that Sayers wants to clearly own the process of canning / replacing Teague.

I may be jumping at shadows but my guess is that Teague's tenure will end Sunday whether Clarkson is interested or not.


Thats fine, but had Collingwood been Carlton, we probably would have sacked him circa 2004, and then not won the flag in 2010.

He definately wouldnt have lasted 2005 on the back of 2004.  THAT is the difference between us and Collingwood.  We might have even sacked him after the second successive Grand Final loss to Brisbane. 

We would have said after being in 3 grand finals, Mick isnt good enough to win won, and sacked him.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Teague Gone?

Reply #41
Thats fine, but had Collingwood been Carlton, we probably would have sacked him circa 2004, and then not won the flag in 2010.

He definately wouldnt have lasted 2005 on the back of 2004.  THAT is the difference between us and Collingwood.  We might have even sacked him after the second successive Grand Final loss to Brisbane. 

We would have said after being in 3 grand finals, Mick isnt good enough to win won, and sacked him.

Yeah to be clear I'm definitely not disagreeing with you. Our club finds ways to shoot its own foot off. Just pointing out where Clarkson is at now is more akin to when MM joined Collingwood as opposed to when he joined us which - I agree - was when he was past it and also after a full year out.

Re: Teague Gone?

Reply #42
Le roi est mort! Vive le Roi!

It was an ugly and disappointing way to go for a guy who had been a good servant and a popular man. But it has happened.

I wonder how long it takes to sack the next one?
Live Long and Prosper!

Re: Teague Gone?

Reply #43
There's no longer any need for a question mark in the thread title.