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Topic: "Carlton Must Voice Realistic Goals To Members" - (Patrick Smith) SEN (Read 29146 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: "Carlton Must Voice Realistic Goals To Members" - (Patrick Smith) SEN

Reply #60 –
Whoa there guys. From 2005 we have listed Murphy, Thomas, Kennedy (3 of the top 4 from 2005), Bower, Gibbs, Everitt, Hampson, Grigg, Kreuzer, Henderson, Yarran, Lucas, Watson, Docherty, Menzel and Cripps as Top 20 draft picks. 16 Top 20 draft picks from 9 drafts! Bower is the only one that has left the AFL and he still played 70 games. Kennedy, Grigg and Hampson have been traded, so we have 12 Top 20 draft picks on our list at present even with Gold Coast and GWS getting priority for 3-4 years! I still say it was the young player development under Ratten that has stalled our team.

Re: "Carlton Must Voice Realistic Goals To Members" - (Patrick Smith) SEN

Reply #61 –
Quote from: Jofo on
Whoa there guys. From 2005 we have listed Murphy, Thomas, Kennedy (3 of the top 4 from 2005), Bower, Gibbs, Everitt, Hampson, Grigg, Kreuzer, Henderson, Yarran, Lucas, Watson, Docherty, Menzel and Cripps as Top 20 draft picks. 16 Top 20 draft picks from 9 drafts! Bower is the only one that has left the AFL and he still played 70 games. Kennedy, Grigg and Hampson have been traded, so we have 12 Top 20 draft picks on our list at present even with Gold Coast and GWS getting priority for 3-4 years! I still say it was the young player development under Ratten that has stalled our team.

Wouldn't you agree significant gradual improvement reflects as development?
Ignorance is bliss.

ONWARDS AND UPWARDS!

Re: "Carlton Must Voice Realistic Goals To Members" - (Patrick Smith) SEN

Reply #62 –
Quote from: PassIt2Carrots on
Quote from: Jofo on
Whoa there guys. From 2005 we have listed Murphy, Thomas, Kennedy (3 of the top 4 from 2005), Bower, Gibbs, Everitt, Hampson, Grigg, Kreuzer, Henderson, Yarran, Lucas, Watson, Docherty, Menzel and Cripps as Top 20 draft picks. 16 Top 20 draft picks from 9 drafts! Bower is the only one that has left the AFL and he still played 70 games. Kennedy, Grigg and Hampson have been traded, so we have 12 Top 20 draft picks on our list at present even with Gold Coast and GWS getting priority for 3-4 years! I still say it was the young player development under Ratten that has stalled our team.

Wouldn't you agree significant gradual improvement reflects as development?

PI2C - These top picks were/are talented players. It's the next level - after pick 20 that have failed to develop. MM has got it right. Bring in some talent from other clubs to fill the gaps and build with draft talent. I think Docherty, Menzell and Cripps will be really good for us. What I want to see is Giles et. al. develop alongside them.

Re: "Carlton Must Voice Realistic Goals To Members" - (Patrick Smith) SEN

Reply #63 –
Quote from: Jofo on
Quote from: PassIt2Carrots on
Quote from: Jofo on
Whoa there guys. From 2005 we have listed Murphy, Thomas, Kennedy (3 of the top 4 from 2005), Bower, Gibbs, Everitt, Hampson, Grigg, Kreuzer, Henderson, Yarran, Lucas, Watson, Docherty, Menzel and Cripps as Top 20 draft picks. 16 Top 20 draft picks from 9 drafts! Bower is the only one that has left the AFL and he still played 70 games. Kennedy, Grigg and Hampson have been traded, so we have 12 Top 20 draft picks on our list at present even with Gold Coast and GWS getting priority for 3-4 years! I still say it was the young player development under Ratten that has stalled our team.

Wouldn't you agree significant gradual improvement reflects as development?

PI2C - These top picks were/are talented players. It's the next level - after pick 20 that have failed to develop.

Jamison, Betts, Garlett, Simpson, Carrazzo were just some he developed that are still of great importance to the side.
Ignorance is bliss.

ONWARDS AND UPWARDS!

Re: "Carlton Must Voice Realistic Goals To Members" - (Patrick Smith) SEN

Reply #64 –
Fair point, but all but Simpson were Rookie listed players with something to prove. I reckon they did a lot to develop themselves.

Re: "Carlton Must Voice Realistic Goals To Members" - (Patrick Smith) SEN

Reply #65 –
Quote from: Jofo on
Fair point, but all but Simpson were Rookie listed players with something to prove. I reckon they did a lot to develop themselves.

Its a point I tried to make.  It may have come across as too much of a negative on Ratten which is my fault, but it was clear to me that unless you must improve, under the previous developement regime, you didnt.

Which of our boys are better human beings for having been at the Carlton Football Club? 
Who has developed leadership traits? 
In Senior footy, what makes you stand up and say, gee he really has come a long way from humble beginnings?

The guys appear to still be making some rather elementary errors, that should be being coached out of them.  Basic execution appears lacking, true comradery has not really been forged among the playing group.

I think of even Jeffy Garlett, and Mitch and they look rather similar to the first gamers that played back then against Richmond (and showed so much promise) yet you look today and they are invariably bigger, stronger, faster versions of those same players but not smarter versions of those same players.

Speaks for our leadership on the park as well.  Perhaps this was a Laidler problem, where he would cover up others deficiencies because of being a smart or intelligent bloke and therefore rather than help someone learn how to do something, would hide their weaknesses?

Who knows for sure?

The reality is, that everyon is really able to suck our boys into doing things their way quite frequently and our guys on the park seem unable to really make any changes on the park.

I heard Dermott Brereton on the radio the other day, and he was talking about showing a guy a position and getting that player to tell him how that position should be played.  i.e. if a player goes down, if the other players in the team understand the role of that player, you effectively can cover that player and do it easily.

How many of our guys do you think could actually achieve this if required?
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: "Carlton Must Voice Realistic Goals To Members" - (Patrick Smith) SEN

Reply #66 –
Quote from: Jofo on
Fair point, but all but Simpson were Rookie listed players with something to prove. I reckon they did a lot to develop themselves.

You're not being reasonable Jofo, you asked for picks outside the top 20 and I provided them. Now you're saying they developed themselves? Cmon man, seriously.
Ignorance is bliss.

ONWARDS AND UPWARDS!

Re: "Carlton Must Voice Realistic Goals To Members" - (Patrick Smith) SEN

Reply #67 –
Quote from: PassIt2Carrots on
Quote from: Jofo on
Fair point, but all but Simpson were Rookie listed players with something to prove. I reckon they did a lot to develop themselves.

You're not being reasonable Jofo, you asked for picks outside the top 20 and I provided them. Now you're saying they developed themselves? Cmon man, seriously.

Go through the list of any club and you will find plenty of rookie listed players or players taken lower in the draft who have played plenty of senior games, you provided four or five names over an 8 or 9 year period which is no big deal (I'd add Tuohy for what it's worth, maybe Bell but time will tell).
What's let us down big time are the players we've taken outside the top half dozen but still relatively high in the ND, almost without exception we have failed to spot talent.
Lucas, Russell, Bower, Hampson, Grigg, Browne, Austin, Edwards, Hartlett, Bootsma, Watson, Mitchell, McCarthy, only a couple of handy players among the lot of them.
Go back a bit and throw in Wiggins, Sporn, Livingston and a few others, it's a litany of failure.
The last good player we picked up low in the draft was Hoops.
The only thing in this world worth more than a hill of beans is the Carlton Football Club.

Re: "Carlton Must Voice Realistic Goals To Members" - (Patrick Smith) SEN

Reply #68 –
But Jofo was attributing the failure to Ratts, not to the players drafted.
Ignorance is bliss.

ONWARDS AND UPWARDS!

Re: "Carlton Must Voice Realistic Goals To Members" - (Patrick Smith) SEN

Reply #69 –
Quote from: PassIt2Carrots on
But Jofo was attributing the failure to Ratts, not to the players drafted.

In that case I disagree with him, it wouldn't matter if we combined Jock McHale, Norm Smith, Ron Barassi and Leigh Matthews and got the resulting hybrid to coach us, our list just isn't up to the best teams.
Malthouse is the man we need right now but the club and supporters need to bite the bullet and stick fat, it will take him at least three or four years.
I still think Ratts was a peanut of a coach by the way. ;)
The only thing in this world worth more than a hill of beans is the Carlton Football Club.

Re: "Carlton Must Voice Realistic Goals To Members" - (Patrick Smith) SEN

Reply #70 –
Really good reading, Folks.

JOFO highlighted selection and development info beyond obvious high draft choices which really does stack up. I would add that I have seen a positive shift in our approach re drafting as evidenced at this early (maybe premature stage) by what I saw on Sunday arvo at PP.

B4L, spot on. Houdini himself couldn't get this group to become a Premiership threat.

And TURNIPS has also raised an important issue in other posts re the responsibility of coaching to have the group 'primed & ready' for the contest. The first half against the Tiggers and 117 minutes of the 120 minutes on Sunday night should have the playing group examining themselves and so should the coaching group.

Andy MacKay, who've I've been guilty of questioning (only based on the little I'd heard him communicate and the performance of his dept) was bloody terrific on the The Blue Print - best stuff from him I've heard and really applaud his candour and guts to give concrete info re failings. As 1 example, he pointed out that for the 1st half against the Tiggers Gibbs was ineffectual on his opponent (Delidio I think). Well, how come this was allowed to go on for to long...? Where was your head, Gibbs? What was the midfield and Senior Coach doing about this for an entire half? Nothing. Half time until a change was made? Took Everitt to shut down Delidio. Gotta think and act quicker in the box than that...
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: "Carlton Must Voice Realistic Goals To Members" - (Patrick Smith) SEN

Reply #72 –
Quote from: PassIt2Carrots on
Quote from: Jofo on
Fair point, but all but Simpson were Rookie listed players with something to prove. I reckon they did a lot to develop themselves.

You're not being reasonable Jofo, you asked for picks outside the top 20 and I provided them. Now you're saying they developed themselves? Cmon man, seriously.

PI2C
Yes, I can become irrational when I'm losing an argument.  :-\ But I think we have failed to develop the mid range talent in the drafts apart from Simpson. I think we are on the right track but it will take time now.

Re: "Carlton Must Voice Realistic Goals To Members" - (Patrick Smith) SEN

Reply #73 –
@Baggers

I agree mate.

Re: "Carlton Must Voice Realistic Goals To Members" - (Patrick Smith) SEN

Reply #74 –
@Baggers

Good points there.