Carlton Supporters Club

Social Club => Blah-Blah Bar => Topic started by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 10, 2019, 05:26:48 PM

Title: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 10, 2019, 05:26:48 PM
Looks like long suffering Holden owners/fans are to be dealt another blow with GM about to sell off Holden to Inchcape Australia who are importers of such crap boxes like Peugeot, Citroen and I think they are also the importer for Subaru.
Fair chance the Holden name will disappear and be replaced by the Opel name only and Inchcape's main interest must be to use the Holden distribution network to flog more Subaru's and save some money...cant see why anyone would want Holden on their books.
Inchcape will probably import the Opel range only or even kill off Holden for good........not that killing off Holden for good is such a bad thing, lousy cars, worst customer service along with Ford in Aus......actually Fiat/Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep is slightly worse again... My sympathies if you own any vehicles from those makers......
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: capcom on February 10, 2019, 08:49:04 PM
Bathurst will look different
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on February 11, 2019, 09:00:53 PM
I can see the rationale in a way. The Holden brand was built on cars, esp. family sedans and wagons, actually being made in Australia for Australian conditions. What is the value of that brand if non of its models are to be built here - why bother just putting a Holden badge on an imported model, especially when the source brand may have more cachet in specific model ranges?
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 11, 2019, 10:27:09 PM
I can see the rationale in a way. The Holden brand was built on cars, esp. family sedans and wagons, actually being made in Australia for Australian conditions. What is the value of that brand if non of its models are to be built here - why bother just putting a Holden badge on an imported model, especially when the source brand may have more cachet in specific model ranges?

Sales are terrible for Holdens, they are still trying to flog Commodores that are 18 months old in design and calling them new cars, the brand is damaged and has been since they took money off the government when they promised to keep manufacturing in Aus but in fact closed down their operation and sent that money to Detroit....
Ford will be next, a equally woeful company whose customer service and engineering is amongst the worst.....
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on February 12, 2019, 07:09:33 AM
Sales are terrible for Holdens, they are still trying to flog Commodores that are 18 months old in design and calling them new cars, the brand is damaged and has been since they took money off the government when they promised to keep manufacturing in Aus but in fact closed down their operation and sent that money to Detroit....
Ford will be next, a equally woeful company whose customer service and engineering is amongst the worst.....

Yes, the great Aussie public has generally moved on from the traditional Holden and Ford family vehicles leaving mainly the die-hards whose patronage does not provide enough demand to support local production. The Ford brand though, unlike Holden, is a global one, so will survive albeit on imported vehicles.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on February 12, 2019, 08:19:07 AM
Yes, the great Aussie public has generally moved on from the traditional Holden and Ford family vehicles leaving mainly the die-hards whose patronage does not provide enough demand to support local production. The Ford brand though, unlike Holden, is a global one, so will survive albeit on imported vehicles.

Most moved on because both brands tried to sell cars for top dollar with B-Grade builds and materials. Ford and Holden were making local plastic versions of BMW and Taurus and trying to charge more for them even though they were full of 70s technology!

The car makers would claim nobody wanted large cars, but at the moment the trend is away from small cars back to family sized vehicles which is ironic given they closed the plants making medium and large sized sedans. The truth was they didn't want to spend on old factories to update old models with modern powertrains and technologies.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens in the market over the next few years, a friend I have who use to own a Ford dealership tells me the biggest growth area is in light trucks like Twin cabs. Our market is becoming very American, and you can expect to find interesting hybrid or plugin versions appearing in SUVs and traditional muscle cars over the next few years. I was sceptical until he took me for a spin in his Tesla 100D, it cost a lot to buy, stuff all to run as he has a setup at home with solar panels and Tesla batteries that basically charges it off the sun, and pins you to the seat under acceleration like a top end sports car.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: JonHenry on February 12, 2019, 10:33:38 AM
Most moved on because both brands tried to sell cars for top dollar with B-Grade builds and materials. Ford and Holden were making local plastic versions of BMW and Taurus and trying to charge more for them even though they were full of 70s technology!

The car makers would claim nobody wanted large cars, but at the moment the trend is away from small cars back to family sized vehicles which is ironic given they closed the plants making medium and large sized sedans. The truth was they didn't want to spend on old factories to update old models with modern powertrains and technologies.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens in the market over the next few years, a friend I have who use to own a Ford dealership tells me the biggest growth area is in light trucks like Twin cabs. Our market is becoming very American, and you can expect to find interesting hybrid or plugin versions appearing in SUVs and traditional muscle cars over the next few years. I was sceptical until he took me for a spin in his Tesla 100D, it cost a lot to buy, stuff all to run as he has a setup at home with solar panels and Tesla batteries that basically charges it off the sun, and pins you to the seat under acceleration like a top end sports car.

The truth is much simpler, the local manufacturers could not compete.
Labour costs at the low production factories could not compete with the Asian manufacturers for low cost vehicles, and they couldn't compete on quality with European manufacturers for high cost vehicles.
Our cost of living combined with union forces squeezed them out.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Thryleon on February 12, 2019, 10:37:37 AM
The truth is much simpler, the local manufacturers could not compete.
Labour costs at the low production factories could not compete with the Asian manufacturers for low cost vehicles, and they couldn't compete on quality with European manufacturers for high cost vehicles.
Our cost of living combined with union forces squeezed them out.

Its all swings and roundabouts.

Give it time, things will come back here.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: JonHenry on February 12, 2019, 11:06:32 AM
Its all swings and roundabouts.

Give it time, things will come back here.

No chance in the next 25 years, and probably 50
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on February 12, 2019, 11:31:10 AM
No chance in the next 25 years, and probably 50

Tend to agree. Building mass produced vehicles can be easily done these days in low labour cost countries e.g. Thailand. I guess AI and robotics could eventually virtually eliminate even most of the low cost labour required?

Would Aussies be prepared to work hard for very low pay in order to compete in that environment. Certainly not at the moment although the forces of neo-liberal globalism could beat us into submission eventually?
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on February 12, 2019, 12:16:26 PM
The truth is much simpler, the local manufacturers could not compete.
Labour costs at the low production factories could not compete with the Asian manufacturers for low cost vehicles, and they couldn't compete on quality with European manufacturers for high cost vehicles.
Our cost of living combined with union forces squeezed them out.

In Melbourne all three manufacturers upgraded to almost fully automated robotic production lines which they ran for only 8hrs - 10hrs a day. They then complained the costs of manufacturing locally were too high, this was because they had incorporated 14 - 16hrs of the factory doing nothing into the vehicle cost. The labor cost was irrelevant, but they used the Australian wages debate to maintain / drive down the wages at new plants they were already in plans to build overseas.

When the two locals closed the factories they refused to sell the used equipment to local manufacturers or suppliers so they bulldozed the whole lot, and claimed a depreciated the loss at the expense of the Australian taxpayer, this is after getting hundreds of millions in federal and state government subsidies to buy those upgrades. When the federal government(Tax Dept) knocked back the claim the car makers took the federal government took court and won a settlement and costs, the law has since been changed to ensure nobody games the system like that again. Estimates are the US HQs made about A$500M out of the whole deal!

So what did they do next, they built new plants in Korea and the Philippines heavily subsidized by those governments to build medium to large cars, subsidized to an amount of about US$350M, and set them up exactly the same way the Melbourne plants were setup, if the plants were so inefficient why would you build them the same way? Perhaps because they can almost make more money building subsidized plants and decommissioning plants for tax write-offs than they do making cars! But like Apple, LG, Samsung, Mitsubishi and Sony the gig will soon be up for these global manufacturers.

The problem is the whole build/commission/decommission cycle takes decades or more and they get to pocket funding up front and pay it back very slowly, partially or never. Would the Tax Dept please give me $500M to mind for them for the next decade or so, I promise to pay it back in full! ;)
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Thryleon on February 12, 2019, 01:15:20 PM
No chance in the next 25 years, and probably 50

Maybe.

Its all economics.

An economy that produces little will get overtaken by somebody else and then they will outsource to the cheaper labour.

It might take 100 years, but it will happen.  The only way to stop it is to produce a premium product, or innovate and do things better.  Thats what the Germans and the Japanese do anyway.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on February 12, 2019, 03:27:29 PM
No chance in the next 25 years, and probably 50

No chance ... unless thereís a dramatic change in world trade, treaties and government involvement.  Although advances in sustainable energy powered vehicles could be a game changer.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on February 13, 2019, 08:49:02 AM
Thats what the Germans and the Japanese do anyway.

In hindsight a lot of that has been smoke and mirrors.

Both countries have major manufacturers that have been caught out demanding and also claiming tight tolerances and performance levels that they cannot actually meet! They made sure the build quality was high, in other words they put on a nice clean set of clothes, and nobody bothered to ask questions about the other performance or technology claims.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Thryleon on February 13, 2019, 10:07:47 AM
In hindsight a lot of that has been smoke and mirrors.

Both countries have major manufacturers that have been caught out demanding and also claiming tight tolerances and performance levels that they cannot actually meet! They made sure the build quality was high, in other words they put on a nice clean set of clothes, and nobody bothered to ask questions about the other performance or technology claims.

True, but it still works.  people swear by German and Japanese engineering.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on February 13, 2019, 11:35:13 AM
True, but it still works.  people swear by German and Japanese engineering.

I recently went from my Jeep Wrangler to a 79 Series Landcruiser.  The difference in build quality is stark.  However, Toyota has got away with building a 4WD with different front and rear track and thatís critical if the vehicle is used off the bitumen.  Dominating the market has allowed Toyota to save money and pass the cost of addressing their issue on to the consumer.

I have owned a Ford, but it was actually a Nissan rebadged under the Button plan.  I have never owned a Holden but I had a long term loan of my brotherís circa 1969 Holden Premier.  It had a 253 cu in V8 and a three speed column shift.  It was long in the tooth then but still went like sh1t out of a shanghai 🙂
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on February 13, 2019, 11:49:17 AM
True, but it still works.  people swear by German and Japanese engineering.

Can they help it, isn't it just a pareidolia or similar cognitive bias effective?

Once they have heard or read the spin they develop a cognitive bias in the absence of contradictory evidence, it's the same mechanism that allows fake news and propaganda to flourish. Whether you read, hear or see such advice you are cognitively prime to believe it. The visual version of this is pareidolia when you cannot unsee some pattern once someone has pointed it out to you. There are audible and written words equivalents of this phenomenon.

Media organisations like newspapers and programs like ACA and 60 Minutes rely on priming your cognition to agree with them, but they are irresponsible and cannot undo what they did. Which is why for example despite being proven to have cheated the system and media heavily reporting that people keep buying VW cars like Golf's, ignoring any number of reports showing those cars are not the quality people believe and that VW cheated the system. Joe Average cannot verify the performance figures, he relies on professional media to do this, but the internet is full of bloggers and now "professional influencers" who profit from product placement and promotion. The same reason people continue to believe climate change is a hoax, vaccines are dangerous and the new wave of believers that the world is flat.

It's why I'm so strong on defending our club in the media, if you let people keep bashing us without restraint being submissive and timid becomes part of the club's culture. Insidiously it's creeps into the playing and coaching group psyche.

Like the way our AFLW keeps losing.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on February 13, 2019, 01:34:00 PM
I have owned a wide range of vehicle brands over the journey, local, Japanese and European,  but from experience and observation, the Toyota products have impressed me most in terms of reliability and build quality. However some of these vehicles have had their issues.

The only Holdens I've owned were Commodores, standard fare which I found were basically OK but had their quality issues such as poor fittings and fixtures. On one I recall in particular was the side of the driver's seat, where it was rubbed  during getting in/out. It wore through in a couple of years. That was quite annoying as it was just  out of warranty and the replacement cover was hard to get, expensive and needed to be fitted by a motor trimmer at my expense

The Lexus, OK more expensive, was light years ahead. This is now getting on a bit but still a good car (fingers crossed!).
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on February 13, 2019, 02:12:43 PM
Due to some equine interests we now have a Toyota and it's by far the best off-road / heavy towing vehicle we've owned. Over the years in the same category we've had Ford and Holden and limited exposure to Chevrolet, RAM, Jeep and Landrover, all were relative rubbish.

One thing I have learned, rated towing capacity is a pretty meaningless measure for anybody except the road authorities to use as a guideline for handing out fines!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on February 13, 2019, 02:43:57 PM
Due to some equine interests we now have a Toyota and it's by far the best off-road / heavy towing vehicle we've owned. Over the years in the same category we've had Ford and Holden and limited exposure to Chevrolet, RAM, Jeep and Landrover, all were relative rubbish.

One thing I have learned, rated towing capacity is a pretty meaningless measure for anybody except the road authorities to use as a guideline for handing out fines!

Gross Vehicle Mass and Gross Combined Mass are the most meaningful measures.  Many vehicles can only legally achieve their towing capacity with absolutely nothing in the vehicle - including the driver  :)
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on February 13, 2019, 03:15:04 PM
Gross Vehicle Mass and Gross Combined Mass are the most meaningful measures.  Many vehicles can only legally achieve their towing capacity with absolutely nothing in the vehicle - including the driver  :)

Towing can be a trap for the unwary in other ways too DJC. For instance, my old Troopy with the 1HZ motor and 5 speed gearbox was not an ideal towing truck due to the design and construction of it's gearbox. If they are to be used for towing then 5th gear(overdrive) should NOT be used, and a gearbox upgrade would be a wise move - or even avoid this model altogether if you want to tow a larger trailer. This gear, i.e. 5th,  is strictly a highway cruising gear in this model. Later versions (turbo) were OK. Anyway, I digress.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on February 13, 2019, 04:32:46 PM
I found many failings with different vehicles.

But the main problem I have found as the driver is vehicle stability under extreme breaking, in strong cross winds and on steep descents. Some of the vehicles listing equal or greater towing capacity, than our current Toyota, were relative rubbish under challenging conditions. I can't relate how different it is to have a vehicle you can be confident in when towing 2 or 3 tonnes of float, driving goes from being a stressful fatigue filled chore to an enjoyment.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 13, 2019, 04:42:16 PM
Due to some equine interests we now have a Toyota and it's by far the best off-road / heavy towing vehicle we've owned. Over the years in the same category we've had Ford and Holden and limited exposure to Chevrolet, RAM, Jeep and Landrover, all were relative rubbish.

One thing I have learned, rated towing capacity is a pretty meaningless measure for anybody except the road authorities to use as a guideline for handing out fines!

Fiat/Chrysler/Jeep is about the worst car entity selling in Aus.......no service backup, crap engineering and if you look at the new Wrangler its not fit to drive on the road, I dont know how they can
sell them....
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on February 13, 2019, 06:57:12 PM
Fiat/Chrysler/Jeep is about the worst car entity selling in Aus.......no service backup, crap engineering and if you look at the new Wrangler its not fit to drive on the road, I dont know how they can
sell them....

Thatís not what my Jeep buddies say; theyíre queuing up to test drive the JL Wrangler  :)  All JLs sold in Australia will have AEB, the absence of which was one of the main reasons for the 1 star NCAP rating and the chassis and integrated roll cage makes them a very safe car if you are involved in a collision.

I didnít really have any issues with Jeep dealers and FCA, after some poor publicity, is actually engaging with Jeep owners.  However, like many 4WDs, trying to squeeze more power out of small diesels leads to reliability problems, particularly when youíre driving in remote areas.  The JL diesel is 2.2l, my JK had a 2.8l diesel.  Cost cutting is also a major problem with vulnerable wiring looms and suspension and drivetrain components that donít last as long as they should.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 13, 2019, 09:44:08 PM
I found many failings with different vehicles.

But the main problem I have found as the driver is vehicle stability under extreme breaking, in strong cross winds and on steep descents. Some of the vehicles listing equal or greater towing capacity, than our current Toyota, were relative rubbish under challenging conditions. I can't relate how different it is to have a vehicle you can be confident in when towing 2 or 3 tonnes of float, driving goes from being a stressful fatigue filled chore to an enjoyment.
Been a Toyota Landcruiser man for years. Throw the rest away AFAIC.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 13, 2019, 09:50:41 PM
Thatís not what my Jeep buddies say; theyíre queuing up to test drive the JL Wrangler  :)  All JLs sold in Australia will have AEB, the absence of which was one of the main reasons for the 1 star NCAP rating and the chassis and integrated roll cage makes them a very safe car if you are involved in a collision.

I didnít really have any issues with Jeep dealers and FCA, after some poor publicity, is actually engaging with Jeep owners.  However, like many 4WDs, trying to squeeze more power out of small diesels leads to reliability problems, particularly when youíre driving in remote areas.  The JL diesel is 2.2l, my JK had a 2.8l diesel.  Cost cutting is also a major problem with vulnerable wiring looms and suspension and drivetrain components that donít last as long as they should.

New Wrangler Failed Euro Ncap 64kmh crash test into a barrier, driver and front passenger survival marginal....thats disgraceful....N Pillar connection failed with transfascia beam, stairwell structurally failed at 50kmh...
AEB is being used to bump up the Ncap rating.........they didnt even bother with the 32kmh side crash pole test because its such a deathtrap.
Its structural performance in crashing is 50%.......you wouldnt put roadkill in a wrangler....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3lusvRULYQ


Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on February 13, 2019, 10:02:52 PM
New Wrangler Failed Euro Ncap 64kmh crash test into a barrier, driver and front passenger survival marginal....thats disgraceful....N Pillar connection failed with transfascia beam, stairwell structurally failed at 50kmh...
AEB is being used to bump up the Ncap rating.........they didnt even bother with the 32kmh side crash pole test because its such a deathtrap.
Its structural performance in crashing is 50%.......you wouldnt put roadkill in a wrangler....

Of course, the NCAP testing isnít biased towards European cars ... and Iíve seen the footage. 

I know several Jeepers who have survived major collisions because Jeep hasnít followed the sheep and made vehicles softer.  I was always concerned about my vehicleís reliability on outback trips but never about survivability in the event that things went ask up.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on February 14, 2019, 08:19:27 AM
If you want indestructible for off-road why not just gets some army surplus!

https://www.australianfrontlinemachinery.com.au

1/2 the price and 3x the value!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Thryleon on February 14, 2019, 01:48:06 PM
Can they help it, isn't it just a pareidolia or similar cognitive bias effective?

Once they have heard or read the spin they develop a cognitive bias in the absence of contradictory evidence, it's the same mechanism that allows fake news and propaganda to flourish. Whether you read, hear or see such advice you are cognitively prime to believe it. The visual version of this is pareidolia when you cannot unsee some pattern once someone has pointed it out to you. There are audible and written words equivalents of this phenomenon.

Media organisations like newspapers and programs like ACA and 60 Minutes rely on priming your cognition to agree with them, but they are irresponsible and cannot undo what they did. Which is why for example despite being proven to have cheated the system and media heavily reporting that people keep buying VW cars like Golf's, ignoring any number of reports showing those cars are not the quality people believe and that VW cheated the system. Joe Average cannot verify the performance figures, he relies on professional media to do this, but the internet is full of bloggers and now "professional influencers" who profit from product placement and promotion. The same reason people continue to believe climate change is a hoax, vaccines are dangerous and the new wave of believers that the world is flat.

It's why I'm so strong on defending our club in the media, if you let people keep bashing us without restraint being submissive and timid becomes part of the club's culture. Insidiously it's creeps into the playing and coaching group psyche.

Like the way our AFLW keeps losing.

I generally think that these are arbitrary claims, originating in old world times.

i.e.  Italian Leather.

All of it comes from different animals, in different countries using the same process to create.

Therefore, why is it only Italian leather that is expensive??

The answer is, that most of this stuff is from ROMAN times when manufacturing and products were different in every country.

These days they take the same raw materials, and manufacture something using the same materials, therefore, the only difference becomes the overheads, and quality control measures.

The only real difference can be where the money is invested as part of the developement process.  This is why your 2nd/3rd series of any car is likely to be the one where all the bugs are ironed out and things just work and work well, the last one will be the cheapest one to manufacture with perhaps the most flaws due to using inferior ingredients to achieve the same build and using slight visual upgrades and a few bonus extras, and your 1st one is the most experimental with varying results.


Long story short, apply that last paragraph in bold to any make, model or manufacturer and you will likely walk away with a good vehicle rather than stating the exact same fallousies we are discussing.

That being said, I think Nissan make the best car for a cross between build quality, service, reliability, aesthetics and price point. 
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on February 14, 2019, 02:09:14 PM
That being said, I think Nissan make the best car for a cross between build quality, service, reliability, aesthetics and price point.

Yes, I think the Nissan low end and high end are quite good, I've friends with Juke and GT-R and they are very happy. Funnily a friend has the 370z and they are not so happy with that, they think aspects of it are cheapened to fit into the price range.

Recently the new Mazda 6 has also shown some promise, but only the top end Atenza seems to offer good value for money in things the average driver won't notice like thicker glass, lower profile tyres stiffer suspension coupled with the turbocharged engine. A bunch of cosmetic things like leather and sunroof as well.

I have no idea why 5.0L Mustangs and Chevrolet is selling so well, the Kia Stinger is a far superior performance car.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Professer E on February 14, 2019, 04:32:18 PM
Always had cruisers and got an older Prado,  but have only had them for work purposes, which involves a lot of hard off road use,  dust,  creek crossings and rock crawling.  All fwd have issues,  but at least the older Tojos can be repaired in the bush.   The newer V8 ones with the differing front and rear track widths are  dogs in sand.

We're looking at the Merc cruiser wannabes when we upgrade the fleet. If the army have 'em they must be solid.

Rangers are poser Utes for twenty something tradies.  We destroyed a hire one inside a week in the Tanami.

Don't care for electric whiz bang cog swappers... When crawling down a 60 degree slope I feel a lot more comfortable locking it into low range and idling them down.

Missus wants a town car,  been looking at the Stinger,  certainly goes hard.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 14, 2019, 05:51:04 PM

Missus wants a town car,  been looking at the Stinger,  certainly goes hard.
I just bought Mrs G2C a demo model Golf R, if youre after something that goes hard with all the bells and whistles, have a look at one of those. Is a dead set weapon in race mode and drives a granny's car in eco mode.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: kruddler on February 14, 2019, 06:12:22 PM
re Jeep....

My old man bought one maybe 18 months ago now.

AFAIK, he hasn't had any problems with it.....but it took him an extra 3 months to get it, and when he did, it still wasn't what he asked/signed/paid for. He had to threaten to take it back and leave it at the dealership, multiple phone calls and emails to get it sorted. Customer service was THE worst he's ever experienced, and thats not from the dealership, thats from head office.

The problem? Sat nav. He wanted it, he paid for it, they said he could have it, they didn't give it to him. Blah blah blah....drawn out forever....so yes, he now has sat nav. But he says its very average and just uses his phone most of the time anyway.

Said he would never go through Jeep again.

Both me and my uncle (his brother) tried to word him on them before he coffed up the coin. He doesn't listen.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on February 14, 2019, 06:32:57 PM
I would not go near Chrysler as I found their dealer attitude and service to be appalling, not that I owned one. I agreed to drop off a company vehicle (Voyager) at the dealers on my way home from work, the dealer having given the undertaking they would take me home, about 5 kms away. When I got there they took the vehicle and then claimed to be too busy to take me home!! I was just left high and dry, and in the end had to phone my wife to come and get me. I've hated Chrysler ever since. Aren't they part of the Jeep group?
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: bmaurizio on February 14, 2019, 08:19:45 PM
I just bought Mrs G2C a demo model Golf R, if youre after something that goes hard with all the bells and whistles, have a look at one of those. Is a dead set weapon in race mode and drives a granny's car in eco mode.

 Yup VW Golf goes like the wind if one drives it hard, good traction and comfortable over longer distances.  Itís been huge for years in Europe. Not cheap, though.

Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 14, 2019, 09:40:21 PM
I would not go near Chrysler as I found their dealer attitude and service to be appalling, not that I owned one. I agreed to drop off a company vehicle (Voyager) at the dealers on my way home from work, the dealer having given the undertaking they would take me home, about 5 kms away. When I got there they took the vehicle and then claimed to be too busy to take me home!! I was just left high and dry, and in the end had to phone my wife to come and get me. I've hated Chrysler ever since. Aren't they part of the Jeep group?

Fiat/Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge....all together and all shizen.....customer service is appalling and they dont carry enough spares either, mate bought a Dodge Journey and it lived up to its name...Dodgy.....spent more time at the dealers than on the road and they only have a few service technicians fully trained to work between dealerships to diagnose faults. Then the same crapbox was re-badged as a Fiat....just the worst car maker combo on the planet..
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 14, 2019, 09:48:11 PM
Always had cruisers and got an older Prado,  but have only had them for work purposes, which involves a lot of hard off road use,  dust,  creek crossings and rock crawling.  All fwd have issues,  but at least the older Tojos can be repaired in the bush.   The newer V8 ones with the differing front and rear track widths are  dogs in sand.

We're looking at the Merc cruiser wannabes when we upgrade the fleet. If the army have 'em they must be solid.

Rangers are poser Utes for twenty something tradies.  We destroyed a hire one inside a week in the Tanami.

Don't care for electric whiz bang cog swappers... When crawling down a 60 degree slope I feel a lot more comfortable locking it into low range and idling them down.

Missus wants a town car,  been looking at the Stinger,  certainly goes hard.

Kia are a reasonable company in terms of backing their cars and looking after customers same with Hyundai, its a pity a lot of the other car makers are not so service/customer care orientated.
Rangers are Fords..which means crap customer care and lie after lie in terms of service.....

When you go into a Toyota dealership. no one bothers you much or hassles you thats because they dont have too beg you to buy their cars and also why they wont bargain much.....
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Professer E on February 14, 2019, 10:20:34 PM
Toyota,  like all manufacturers, slug you for spares....it's a bloody racket of epic proportions.  Toyota's spares are so complicated they have a job called "parts interpreter", but that doesn't necessarily guarantee you're going to get what you want....
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on February 14, 2019, 10:26:50 PM
Toyota,  like all manufacturers, slug you for spares....it's a bloody racket of epic proportions.  Toyota's spares are so complicated they have a job called "parts interpreter", but that doesn't necessarily guarantee you're going to get what you want....

I wasn't impressed when I've had dealings with my local Toyota spares dept. The guys ranged from unhelpful (useless) to downright bloody rude. However I found a good third party spares dealer close by who could get everything I needed, cheaper and with a better customer service ethos.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on February 15, 2019, 07:32:47 AM
I wasn't impressed when I've had dealings with my local Toyota spares dept. The guys ranged from unhelpful (useless) to downright bloody rude. However I found a good third party spares dealer close by who could get everything I needed, cheaper and with a better customer service ethos.

Our local Toyota dealer (Mrs DJC has a Toyota C-HR) has been very good so far.  However, that may be more about the laid back and friendly attitude that seems to permeate the population of Sleepy Hollow (aka Geetroit).
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on February 15, 2019, 07:51:14 AM
Our local Toyota dealer (Mrs DJC has a Toyota C-HR) has been very good so far.  However, that may be more about the laid back and friendly attitude that seems to permeate the population of Sleepy Hollow (aka Geetroit).

Yes, I think you would get a more friendly approach away from The Big Smoke. Also, customer service probably varies from dealer to dealer, but we mainly have our own experiences to go on.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 15, 2019, 10:57:56 AM
Toyota,  like all manufacturers, slug you for spares....it's a bloody racket of epic proportions.  Toyota's spares are so complicated they have a job called "parts interpreter", but that doesn't necessarily guarantee you're going to get what you want....
I'll pay that. I damaged the wing mirror on my Prado reversing down the driveway. Replacement cost from Toyota? $1300 plus painting for colour coding! Solution? Off to the wreckers and got one for $400. Meanwhile, I pulled the old one apart, pulled out the broken indicator and damaged fold back motor, sourced new ones on ebay and fixed it for $110. Now I have a spare for next time or can sell it for $510 and make my money back.
Replacement genuine windscreen? $2100. Left the chip in it!!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Professer E on February 15, 2019, 01:31:31 PM
Love Clint in Gran Torino when his son drives off in a GXL cruiser......grrrrrr
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: northernblue on February 16, 2019, 11:15:53 PM
Love Clint in Gran Torino when his son drives off in a GXL cruiser......grrrrrr

That movie made me realise that Clint canít act... heís just Clint ! 🤣
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Professer E on February 17, 2019, 02:30:51 PM
Some great lines in that film....

Get that cr@p off my lawn

Sometimes you run across somebody  ya shouldnta f@@@ed with

A man can fix anything with a tin of that (WD40), some tape and pliers.

Those being some pearls of Clint wisdom.
Apparently the Hemsworth blokes and their ilk are "male action heros"..... the man with no name, William Munny,  Harry or Josey Wales would eat their kind for breakfast.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 17, 2019, 04:48:00 PM
Some great lines in that film....

Get that cr@p off my lawn

Sometimes you run across somebody  ya shouldnta f@@@ed with

A man can fix anything with a tin of that (WD40), some tape and pliers.

Those being some pearls of Clint wisdom.
Apparently the Hemsworth blokes and their ilk are "male action heros"..... the man with no name, William Munny,  Harry or Josey Wales would eat their kind for breakfast.

Bounty hunter #1:
You're wanted, Wales.

Josey Wales:
Reckon I'm right popular. You a bounty hunter?

Bounty hunter #1:
A man's got to do something for a living these days.

Josey Wales:
Dyin' ain't much of a living, boy.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on February 17, 2019, 04:56:20 PM
We all have it coming kid!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Tragic on February 19, 2019, 04:45:42 PM
Mister Eastwood's first name says it all when spelled in capitals.

Love him.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 09, 2019, 06:12:55 PM
Just revisiting the death trap that is the Jeep Wrangler, ingloriously has achieved a one star Ancap safety rating and those disgraceful officials at Fiat Chrysler couldnt give a rats clacker about you and your loved ones.
At 64Kmh in the frontal impact barrier test with 40% contact on the drivers side the front passenger compartment starts to collapse, so your loved ones are going to be die in agony on the side of the road in an accident that in any other normal car they would be shook up but walk away from.
These structural crapheaps shouldnt be allowed on the road even though they come with AEB and numerous other toy safety devices, the spin from Fiat Chrysler about these cars is also amazing claiming they are engineering upgrades etc etc....they spent a lot of money changing the aero dynamics of the car to reduce the fuel costs but sacrificed structural safety. In the encap tests they didnt even bother with the side pole impact test as it was just assumed these master pieces of engineering wouldnt hold up.
And to think they want to charge you 75K for a Rubicon in Aus....

Good news for Nissan/Mitsubishi buyers too, as if it wasnt bad enough that Renault have allied themselves with them and screwed with their engineering  it appears Renault want to take over Fiat Chrysler too.....I'd be avoiding all those brands...
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: PaulP on June 09, 2019, 06:19:37 PM
Thanks for that EB. I really need to brush up on this sort of knowledge. We've driven Mazdas for decades, and we simply buy those now by default.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 09, 2019, 06:28:25 PM
Thanks for that EB. I really need to brush up on this sort of knowledge. We've driven Mazdas for decades, and we simply buy those now by default.

Paul, good choice ...Mazda's are good well designed vehicles and the after sales service backup is ok too....
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: PaulP on June 09, 2019, 07:11:53 PM
Paul, good choice ...Mazda's are good well designed vehicles and the after sales service backup is ok too....

Thanks EB.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: capcom on June 09, 2019, 08:45:54 PM
I'll stick with Subaru outbacks ... very good in all aspects.  Jeeps are just bad news
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on June 09, 2019, 11:35:30 PM
As an ex-Wrangler owner, I have to say that I canít fault the protection they provide to the occupants.  Not that I needed it myself but several of my Jeep buddies were involved in serious accidents and the integrated roll cage enabled them to walk away.  Indeed, most Wranglers that have rolled can be made roadworthy and have the rollover record deleted from the onboard computer.  In fact, a young friend roiled one on a steep track last month and was able to get it back on its feet, drive home, replace some panels and get a roadworthy for it within a week.

If you want a capable 4WD with a live front axle and ladder chassis, youíre going to run foul of ANCAP ratings.  My 79 Series Landcruiser doesnít have an ANCAP rating because Toyota couldnít be bothered (the 2016 single cab model has a 5 star rating).

If I was in the market for a genuine outback touring, boghole ploughing, rockcrawling 4WD, I wouldnít be too concerned about ANCAP ratings.  However, I would be concerned about reliability and build quality and thatís where I believe that Jeep lets its buyers down.

Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: dodge on June 09, 2019, 11:45:50 PM

Good news for Nissan/Mitsubishi buyers too, as if it wasnt bad enough that Renault have allied themselves with them and screwed with their engineering  it appears Renault want to take over Fiat Chrysler too.....I'd be avoiding all those brands...

Issues with Renault - genuinely curious to know them? I understood that the chassis and engines are Nissan incl the CVT, electronics are Samsung, design French.  Nissan hasn't changed not sure about Mitsubishi.  I do have a history of owning Renaults  still going with the 2002 Clio.  Much more fun driving that than some other small cars.   More recently, newer Megane and Koleos made in the new alliance days are solid, comfortable rides - never had an issue with them. 
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Professer E on June 10, 2019, 08:29:53 AM
An old joke in 4WD circles... It's a Jeep limited.... Very limited.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on June 10, 2019, 10:12:46 AM
An old joke in 4WD circles... It's a Jeep limited.... Very limited.

The vast majority of people I know who have purchase one to tow stuff regret it, after their first downhill fright they nearly all end up in Landcruiser, Patrol or Pajero, some end up in Land or Range Rover but that's been for suburban towing of Sweeties Pony Float!

Know a couple of people that have just purchased RAM or F-Series for when they need a bigger boat, and one Hummer owner! No real feedback yet!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Professer E on June 10, 2019, 10:51:54 AM
The V8 turbo diesel cruisers we use for work are phenomenal.  Pulled an 1800 litre water trailer the other day through sand,  hardly knew it was there.  But I'd hate the fuel bills.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on June 10, 2019, 11:20:27 AM
The V8 turbo diesel cruisers we use for work are phenomenal.  Pulled an 1800 litre water trailer the other day through sand,  hardly knew it was there.  But I'd hate the fuel bills.

Yeah, in the end I gave up on various twin cabs and crew cabs and we bought a turbo diesel landcruiser for the girl to tow her trotters around, she says she doesn't even notice when two of them are on the back, and they weight about 600kg a piece plus a 1800kg float! Happy wife happy life!

The mates tell me the fuel bills are the interesting thing for the Ram, F-Series and Hummer. Because the bills don't change that much under load, they've sh1t economy unloaded or fully loaded! ;D But all three have those smart engine management systems, they basically turn off cylinders when you are towing on freeways or holding speed on straight level roads, so they are not as bad as you think for a vehicle rated at +4500kg towing! Pays to have a soft foot!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on June 10, 2019, 11:57:18 AM
The V8 turbo diesel cruisers we use for work are phenomenal.  Pulled an 1800 litre water trailer the other day through sand,  hardly knew it was there.  But I'd hate the fuel bills.

Iíve got a 79 Series.  When we did the Madigan Line last year, my fuel consumption was 14l/100km.  The three 200 Series on the trip all got around 28l/100km.  The next best performer was the Grand Cherokee with 17l/100km.  All diesels of course.

It seems that the twin turbos on the 200 Series mean that they are working hard most of the time.  The 79 Series has a single turbo and only works hard when it has to ... a bit like a former Blue running around in the SANFL  ;)
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 10, 2019, 12:20:40 PM
Dodge RAM....more junk... cracked engine blocks, junk universals...also buy a welder you will need it.

re: Nissans...CVT's are the worst on the planet, what company these day only offers a 3 year warranty...dont buy Nissan.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 10, 2019, 12:37:04 PM
As an ex-Wrangler owner, I have to say that I canít fault the protection they provide to the occupants.  Not that I needed it myself but several of my Jeep buddies were involved in serious accidents and the integrated roll cage enabled them to walk away.  Indeed, most Wranglers that have rolled can be made roadworthy and have the rollover record deleted from the onboard computer.  In fact, a young friend roiled one on a steep track last month and was able to get it back on its feet, drive home, replace some panels and get a roadworthy for it within a week.

If you want a capable 4WD with a live front axle and ladder chassis, youíre going to run foul of ANCAP ratings.  My 79 Series Landcruiser doesnít have an ANCAP rating because Toyota couldnít be bothered (the 2016 single cab model has a 5 star rating).

If I was in the market for a genuine outback touring, boghole ploughing, rockcrawling 4WD, I wouldnít be too concerned about ANCAP ratings.  However, I would be concerned about reliability and build quality and thatís where I believe that Jeep lets its buyers down.

If you are rock hopping and not doing any speed then you may get away with it but on a highway in a moderate front on accident where normal cars would protect you you are going to
be scraping the front passenger out of that crumpled cabin, not much fun in the back either where the protection is equally poor.
The A pillar and trans facia beam connection collapses which is unacceptable in a modern car....you are much more likely to die in a moderate front on accident if you drive a Wrangler.

Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on June 29, 2019, 12:04:20 PM
My brother in law's mate is competing in the Beijing to Paris rally in a 1975 Rolls Royce.  The fifth placed vehicle at around the halfway mark is an EH Holden.

The leader is ...





a Leyland P76  :o
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on June 29, 2019, 12:22:32 PM
Dodge RAM....more junk... cracked engine blocks, junk universals...also buy a welder you will need it.

re: Nissans...CVT's are the worst on the planet, what company these day only offers a 3 year warranty...dont buy Nissan.

The last o/back trip I did pretty much included the  most popular 4wd models.  The one that caused problems was a close to new Patrol on which the diff housing cracked.  Luckily there was plenty of diff oil available!