We need to put the best possible team on the park.
Agree but unless Kreuzer is ready to go playing him at the moment could be possibly the worst decision for both him and our team possible.
Given the results are a bit irrelevant for us (unless you believe Bolton needs to win games to keep the faith in him) its not a significant difference in performance and it might be better for Kreuzer to rehab and recover. From where I sit, we have the chance to win three in a row later from about round 15 onwards, and the Bombers game is the only game before the bye we need to be getting everyone cherry ripe for. That means pushing out our best side capable of winning, provided no one is playing under significant duress.
Special K certainly is not the best ruck in the competition, but when he is fit and in form he can be one of the most effective. And mbb is right; he doesn't get the kudos he deserves. Even from many Carlton supporters. But his form last year had very few peers. He was beaten maybe three times for the year. He at least broke even against some of best credentialed rucks and he simply thrashed most of them. He doesn't just compete in the ruck, but he makes clearances. Few rucks do that.
One of the positive things about Phillips so far is that he has been able to at least break even, usually doing better. This has not been the case earlier in his career. Unfortunately he runs out of gas in the second half. Not surprising given his history of injury, but a disappointment all the same.
In the past Kreuzer has been struggling with fitness and has let the ruck become a battle of strength with Jacobs. That has been a mistake which has allowed Sauce to play well against Kreuzer. Get Jacobs to run after Kreuzer and the matter takes on a whole new light.
Thats assuming Kreuzer can actually run around for 4 quarters. In his 3 games thus far this season, he has played 66%, 71% and 80% of game time, whilst Phillips has gone at 86% and 83% of game time.
It all points to Kreuzer not being fit, and that means you don't play him unless he has proven he is not only right to play, but is also fit enough to run an opposition ruckman around the ground.
The reset is about much more than embracing the draft and learning how to trade players for picks. And if it isn't, then we've learned nothing.
Agree.
In some ways the Bolton situation is going to be a KPI of how much our club has learned and how far we have come.
Old Carlton would have simply pulled the pin on him and gone out and gotten the most credentialled coach available to replace him.
New Carlton needs to act in a logical well thought out and reasonable manner. If that means we need to move Bolton on, then a clear concise thought process and methodology will result in that decision, the club will act fairly transparently and the public will generally accept the decision.
Stephen Trigg's departure smelt a bit of old Carlton, and that might be something that has people a little bit on edge regarding which way we are going to go. If you also consider that the club has a history of treated the rank and file with a little bit of disrespect, it leads to a bit of mistrust amongst the faithful which in turn creates a little bit of a result of the club holding its breathe. The silence from the club has been a little bit deafening, but at the same time welcome because irrespective of what is thought, they are not canvassing publically.
Cain Liddle might want to get a wriggle on though. Stephen Trigg was very engaged with the supporter base, and I find him to have been a little bit stand offish particularly at a time when a calm well reasoned voice from the footy club might be appreciated.
And ......................... it's not the same as this rebuild in that this time we have traded out players in our best 22.
You know when you post "we have been rebuilding for 10 years blah blah blah it's not the same. We didn't trade out a 28 year old Camporeale. Matty Lappin. Even Houlihan and Whitnall when Melbourne came stiffing.
We embraced the draft. Yeap.
We didn't have much to trade back then. Remember when hawthorn were hunting Brett Thornton? Should have traded him.
Regardless of whether Kreuzer is better than Jacobs or vice versa I'll be hoping like crazy that he plays this weekend because Sauce will be much too good for Phillips. Not only in the ruck either, Kreuzer does much more in general play, and I'm getting sick of being spanked. But it's been that sort of year and Jacobs will probably be BOG and remind us yet again that we rated him below Warnock and Hampson.
See for me irrespective of this weekend we should ruck Phillips and Casboult and leave Kreuzer to recover.
My argument was based on your original point that with the loss of Gibbs we should have seen the difficult season coming.
But using the Gibbs, Kennedy, SPS combinations...we didn't know Kennedy would struggle with injury and there was some expectation that SPS would have an improved year and not suffer from second year blues.
So there was reason to be positive about the season. Of much greater impact was the loss of Docherty ...then Kreuzer and Murphy.
Anyway.... come the second half of the year if we can get a few back, and some improved form from some of the strugglers, we may have a better idea of where we stand.
Again I argued that we would be doing well not to go backwards after trading Gibbs.
I'm sorry to say we haven't done well enough to not go backwards. Docherty or no Docherty.
I can only judge them as they play relative to each other, and side by side in the VFL, it's Polson that looks closer to AFL than some of the others.
But I no expert, in fact I'll assert based on the McKay / Kerr selection situation I know nothing at all!
One concern I have, is which player does Kerr really compete with for a AFL spot?
Who does Polson really compete with for that matter?
It may not be a level playing field!
I've heard the club and coaches throw around terms like honest, hard working, good character, but I'm yet to see this in the selection policy. I appreciate team selection is complex issue, but it must surely follow your ethos.
Im definitely no expert.
I do know a thing or two about team dynamics, but largely coaches all tend to have the same modus operandi with all their players. At any given moment some are in favour or not. When you're not, from the outside looking in, it can look like you are having to do twice the amount of work to make half the headway.
The only other factor is how well people execute the instructions provided to them.
i.e. JSOS getting the chop in round 1, Cunningham getting Omitted vs North, Lamb getting Omitted on the back of his West Coast game, and Ill go early and state that SPS should get dropped this week, but probably won't.
I was bemused by all of these decisions regarding dropping players, but none of them were overly surprising as they didnt really hurt the opposition enough.
No I don't agree about that, in my opinion Fisher is already well beyond anything Daniel has or can deliver, Fisher just doesn't get the recognition Daniel gets.
I think you've pre-judged Polson. If you watched VFL regularly there is no way you could be positive about McKay or Macreadie and also negative about Polson. At VFL level Polson has them comfortably covered on so many levels other than dimensions. His work ethic is equal to Graham, and his ball use is probably better, he just doesn't get as much of the football yet.
I suspect as the years pass, players like Weitering will replace Rowe, and that shift in team balance will create opportunity for players like Polson. But it may depend on how our list looks ignoring Fisher, Kennedy looks slow, Cripps is slow, SPS is not fast, Dow is inside, and O'Brien is outside. Not sure how Polson fits if he wants midfield as a role.
I look at their AFL form and what they have shown. The VFL is one kettle of fish, the AFL another. A few have shown not much at VFL level and then gone up a gear at AFL level.
Rather than arguing about Fisher or Daniel, its not the point. Irrespective of how we rate players, my list shows that Polson is currently one who is the only real question mark about being an AFL capable competitor which is why he is the only one that worries me. Macreadie could turn out to be a bust, but his AFL form last year was solid enough to show that we have our key position players sorted for a few years.
Polson looks OK at VFL level, I think if he was at a club surrounded by the right type of player he is capable of doing a Caleb Daniel type role at AFL level. He's probably easily the smartest of the smalls we have drafted, but he doesn't have any natural physical advantage.
Maybe, and I hope for him he turns it around, but his limitations seem to be plentiful. Zach Fisher is your Caleb Daniel type. Polson is more Honeychurch (without the natural ability at the moment).
I cannot say that about any of the other players we have drafted.
Williamson - Good size, good athletic ability, uses the ball well enough. Currently injured SPS - A bit small, but has good evasive ability, generally hits targets, and can stick a tackle. Currently has application issues, and needs some work on game sense. JSOS - Limited athletically, but seems to have the smarts and work rate to negate this. Had been scoring reasonably well, but that has dried up a bit this season and been a bit ineffective. Weitering - Good size, seems a bit sluggish and down on form and confidence, but is still getting to where the footy is but needs to contest harder. Marchbank - Good size, speed and skills, good over head mark. No real negatives, played his first poor game on friday. Harry - Good size, good agility, good skills, needs to work on his application and workrate (fitness??) Cunningham - Good skills, good size, nous, doesnt want to get his hands dirty, but can really use the ball well (maturity). Curnow - has all the tools required, just needs to keep working hard and perhaps make better decisions, but even the wrong ones, arent that bad. Fisher - Is doing everything we can ask of him and just belongs. The exception to the rule that states draftees need time, because he has a good head on his shoulders and is competing really well. Macreadie - tall who has shown good competitive ability and AFL standard skills, probably hasnt had the opportunity through simple depth of numbers at the moment, but what we have seen of him looks good. Paddy Dow - Looks good in the clinches, and could polish up the disposal a little but is doing well for a first year player. Lochie O Brien - Good kick of the footy, has pace, perhaps not overly physical, but this might come with confidence. De Koning - His ruck work in VFL level is a standout already. Needs time before impacting at AFL level. Schumacher - a relative unknown quantity Pat Kerr - a speculative late tall who is working hard. Havent seen what he has to offer yet, but he will get his chance based on VFL form and then we will see.
Put Polson in the above group, and he sticks out like a sore thumb. It doesn't mean he wont make it, because the ones that are really effective for us are way ahead of schedule (thankfully) but hes the only one I look at that doesnt seem to bring much to the equation. I think hes probably the only real question mark at the moment. I'm yet to see why SOS decided to draft him, which is no indicator of anything.
Hence why I state hes my only real concern of our draftees. If you are a small and you don't have some tricks up your sleeve then you are in all sorts.
If we look back at some of the threads of the past though, you'll find that many of 'our kids' of the past all had games where there was some genuine excitement...where they showed something.
...and one of the most insightful comments from the Buckley thread was this one.
"Games into kids" isn't as important as "games into kids together" and at the moment circumstances (injuries, selections) are preventing that on many occasions.
Yep, once again, I should listen to myself a little more.
I'm not convinced of any of our kids, but I have seen they have the tools.
That doesn't make things better, it makes them worse!
It actually doesnt mean a lot aside from an indicator of how we are currently travelling.
Good teams lose to rubbish sides, and rubbish sides can get hammered. Its only an indicator of how 4 quarters went.
Its not indicative of future performance. The only thing we can currently draw from our team is whether or not we have talented players who need some work to become 4 quarter performers.
I'm a little confused about the argument that we should wait until some of these kids make it to 50+ games before we make a firm judgement about them.
... why then have we made judgements and let go so many players that haven't managed that number.
I think its hard to compare.
Where we are at means its hard to get a read on players and their abilities because of how few experienced heads we have in the team.
In the past, where a Kane Lucas or a Matthew Watson joined a rather settled lineup, they looked like they had no idea what they were doing and didn't display even a snippet of the ability that half of these guys do.
Our kids all have shown something (except Polson who is the only real worry).
Now its about how we develope them as a unit and as individuals.
Agree. Not sure what some people expect around here. 13 consecutive losses and 37 rounds < 100 points scored and we should only accept contributions like...
“Bad luck Blue Boys, better luck next time.” “Hang in there, we need to stick phat.” “Saw some positive signs today.” etc., etc., ...
Apart from making this the world’s most boring forum i’d like to think we’re all mature enough to accept differing viewpoints without getting too precious.
Those who think we’re being disloyal/impatient need to understand the sustained success we experienced from 1968 to 1995 was forged from the now famous comment from George Harris who turned to one of his cohort during a game in 1965 and uttered something like, “This is crap and i’m not putting up with it anymore. We need to do something.”
The premiership in ‘68 broke our previously longest drought - 21 years. It’s now been 23. This time around, the club is “doing something” - it’s rebuilding. We all know what that means (basically, be patient) but does anyone really know what it looks like?
If we win the flag in 2020, both camps - the so called loyal supporters and the rest of us wil all hold hands and sing ‘Kumbuya’ together. If we win in 2030 the loyalists will say “I told you so” but those of us who were there in ‘68 (Olympic stand, 2nd tier) won’t be around to hear it.
I argued blue in the face with fly in pre season that finishing bottom six is almost guaranteed.
I know where we're at, and probably have a better appreciation than the average punter about where we are at, but I can categorically state that we are playing much worse than I thought we would be at this stage which is a bigger concern than whether or not we've won.
I was livid after the Gold Coast and North games and we saw it again against the doggies.
Sure we've got some injuries but blokes running around not knowing what they should be doing is downright unacceptable.
and the rest of us wil all hold hands and sing ‘Kumbuya’ together. If we win in 2030 the loyalists will say “I told you so” but those of us who were there in ‘68 (Olympic stand, 2nd tier) won’t be around to hear it.