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11
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by kruddler -
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: kruddler – on


I said we've falled off a cliff, you said it was extreme, i provided evidence its far from extreme and we can't simply blame it on injuries as we had every chance to get ahead of that before we did.

But, you say injuries are why we fell off a cliff, then if thats all it is, why are we rebuilding?

You see how things are not adding up?

The players we have recruited are worse than whats going out.
The reasons we are recruited said type of players is because we needed a rebuild to change things up.....which i disagree with. We didn't need a rebuild, we needed to draft long term KP depth and top up the list in areas we were deficient. Had we have done this, we would still be looking at the cliff from the top, not looking back up at it, all battered and bruised.

2 years from now, maybe we've had time to scale that cliff again, i'm far from certain thats the case, but time will tell.
In the meantime our current a-graders are entering the twilight of their careers and we have little to replace them with currently.

Yet somehow, the guys in charge are doing a terrific job.

DOES. NOT. COMPUTE.

We didn't fall off a cliff.
But I'm not going to argue if you want to feel thats what happened.
We've been challenged the last two years and it proved a bit much
In 2023 we finished 5th but with a bit of luck and desperation we made it through to a prelim
In other words we played out of our skin but in the end we weren't good enough.
I suspect what happened then was there were areas identified that we needed to address and subsequent drafting has concentrated on those areas....speed, disposal, depth.

Were not going the full rebuild. We're just strengthening the foundations before we add the roof.
There is a reason the spine is called a spine in football. Its important piece that everything is built around.

We are rebuilding, but not with foundations. We are doing it with fluffy pillows, wallpaper and a change of curtains. The main structure is largely being ignored, and its only a matter of time until the cracks show through and the real issues can no longer be ignored.
12
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Lods -
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: Lods – on
You've completely changed the subject. We were talking about recruiting.
Yep we've had a drop off in performance but the reasons for that are down to a number of aspects other than recruiting, including injury and division.
The list in 2024 and 2025 was still solid but it was unable to cope with what occurred.
I think we may have a bit more depth and durability going forward but it's a wait and see.

I said we've falled off a cliff, you said it was extreme, i provided evidence its far from extreme and we can't simply blame it on injuries as we had every chance to get ahead of that before we did.

But, you say injuries are why we fell off a cliff, then if thats all it is, why are we rebuilding?

You see how things are not adding up?

The players we have recruited are worse than whats going out.
The reasons we are recruited said type of players is because we needed a rebuild to change things up.....which i disagree with. We didn't need a rebuild, we needed to draft long term KP depth and top up the list in areas we were deficient. Had we have done this, we would still be looking at the cliff from the top, not looking back up at it, all battered and bruised.

2 years from now, maybe we've had time to scale that cliff again, i'm far from certain thats the case, but time will tell.
In the meantime our current a-graders are entering the twilight of their careers and we have little to replace them with currently.

Yet somehow, the guys in charge are doing a terrific job.

DOES. NOT. COMPUTE.

We didn't fall off a cliff.
But I'm not going to argue if you want to feel thats what happened.
We've been challenged the last two years and it proved a bit much
In 2023 we finished 5th but with a bit of luck and desperation we made it through to a prelim
In other words we played out of our skin but in the end we weren't good enough.
I suspect what happened then was there were areas identified that we needed to address and subsequent drafting has concentrated on those areas....speed, disposal, depth.

Were not going the full rebuild. We're just strengthening the foundations before we add the roof.
13
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by kruddler -
Quote from: Lods – on
You've completely changed the subject. We were talking about recruiting.
Yep we've had a drop off in performance but the reasons for that are down to a number of aspects other than recruiting, including injury and division.
The list in 2024 and 2025 was still solid but it was unable to cope with what occurred.
I think we may have a bit more depth and durability going forward but it's a wait and see.

I said we've falled off a cliff, you said it was extreme, i provided evidence its far from extreme and we can't simply blame it on injuries as we had every chance to get ahead of that before we did.

But, you say injuries are why we fell off a cliff, then if thats all it is, why are we rebuilding?

You see how things are not adding up?

The players we have recruited are worse than whats going out.
The reasons we are recruited said type of players is because we needed a rebuild to change things up.....which i disagree with. We didn't need a rebuild, we needed to draft long term KP depth and top up the list in areas we were deficient. Had we have done this, we would still be looking at the cliff from the top, not looking back up at it, all battered and bruised.

2 years from now, maybe we've had time to scale that cliff again, i'm far from certain thats the case, but time will tell.
In the meantime our current a-graders are entering the twilight of their careers and we have little to replace them with currently.

Yet somehow, the guys in charge are doing a terrific job.

DOES. NOT. COMPUTE.
14
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Lods -
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: Lods – on


Gee, you talk in extremes.
"Fallen off a cliff"
Have you been paying attention to what's happened with injury an off field shenanigans the last two years.  ::)

Don't give too much weight to a dozen people voting. We could hold the election in my lounge room.

https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=6889.msg418178#msg418178
CHECK THE DATE
Quote from: kruddler – on
Yep.

Personally, i'd give TDK the week off. Just like i would've given Kennedy the week off.

At this time of year, with our injury list as small as it is, THIS is when you rest players and get them right. No point running players into the ground and not giving their body a chance to recover right before you start playing the most important games of the year - finals.

I am especially worried about TDK and keeping him fit because he appears to be a bit of an 'orchid' - needs perfect conditions to thrive.
That is, his athleticism is his strong point. His weakness is his body and consistency. We can't really carry a half-fit TDK in the same way we can carry a half fit Pittonet. Pitto doesn't need to run, jump, dodge. He is a push and shove guy who wants contact and wants to bruise you. If he is hurt, that doesn't really change the way he plays. He is by no means bullet proof and cops his injuries as well. But, if both rucks did an ankle, or copped a whack on the knee....or a corky....who would be more effected by that?

Its not an easy decision, TDKs best is very good. His worst is terrible. Whereabouts on that rollercoaster he is on any given week you can only hope to understand. Pitto probably won't reach the highs of TDK, but he probably won't sink to the lows either. More 'even' performances week to week. More consistent.

Which one you pick may change depending on how risk averse you are.

This is one post i found, there will be many more, potentially even earlier. (When i post the amount i do its hard to find the posts you want via searches  :-[ )

At the time, we were 2nd and no injuries worries.
I harped on about resting players when we could (like Geelong have been a master at) but no, we played them until they broke down, to the point we barely had enough players to field a team.

Since then, we dropped from 2nd, to scraping into the finals in 8th before being blown away 10 goals to nothing to start the match.
Following year, we didn't learn from our mistakes, we doubled down.....and fell again, ultimately to 11th, but at one stage 16th, and never above 10th.

I expect a similar fall this year.
So yes, off a cliff.
If you think i'm being extreme, but you're not being extreme enough.

We had a prelim side with not a care in the world at the halfway point of the year which we turned into a rebuild over the next 18 months. How is that for extreme?

You've completely changed the subject. We were talking about recruiting.
Yep we've had a drop off in performance but the reasons for that are down to a number of aspects other than recruiting, including injury and division.
The list in 2024 and 2025 was still solid but it was unable to cope with what occurred.
I think we may have a bit more depth and durability going forward but it's a wait and see.
15
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by kruddler -
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: kruddler – on


Its not definitive, sure, but its pretty clear that this site is not leaving out a-graders though is it.
It shows that those players are borderline best 23....and thats the point. Anyway can draft borderline best 23 players.
We lost 2 silvagni a-graders
We still have a few silvagni a-graders.
How many austin a-graders do we have despite him recruiting 75% of the list.

Every year its a 'work in progress, you can't judge yet' well when can we judge?
Performances wise we've fallen off a cliff.
Player wise we've lost more talented players than we've brought in.
Of the players we've brought in, the best hopes we have are 18+19yo kids so by the time they develop, our existing a-graders will be on the way out....and currently, their replacements are not on the list.

As a collective site, i liken our list management thought processes to the frog in the pan that slowly boils. Its happening too slowly for anyone to realise, but its bad news.

Gee, you talk in extremes.
"Fallen off a cliff"
Have you been paying attention to what's happened with injury an off field shenanigans the last two years.  ::)

Don't give too much weight to a dozen people voting. We could hold the election in my lounge room.

https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=6889.msg418178#msg418178
CHECK THE DATE
Quote from: kruddler – on
Yep.

Personally, i'd give TDK the week off. Just like i would've given Kennedy the week off.

At this time of year, with our injury list as small as it is, THIS is when you rest players and get them right. No point running players into the ground and not giving their body a chance to recover right before you start playing the most important games of the year - finals.

I am especially worried about TDK and keeping him fit because he appears to be a bit of an 'orchid' - needs perfect conditions to thrive.
That is, his athleticism is his strong point. His weakness is his body and consistency. We can't really carry a half-fit TDK in the same way we can carry a half fit Pittonet. Pitto doesn't need to run, jump, dodge. He is a push and shove guy who wants contact and wants to bruise you. If he is hurt, that doesn't really change the way he plays. He is by no means bullet proof and cops his injuries as well. But, if both rucks did an ankle, or copped a whack on the knee....or a corky....who would be more effected by that?

Its not an easy decision, TDKs best is very good. His worst is terrible. Whereabouts on that rollercoaster he is on any given week you can only hope to understand. Pitto probably won't reach the highs of TDK, but he probably won't sink to the lows either. More 'even' performances week to week. More consistent.

Which one you pick may change depending on how risk averse you are.

This is one post i found, there will be many more, potentially even earlier. (When i post the amount i do its hard to find the posts you want via searches  :-[ )

At the time, we were 2nd and no injuries worries.
I harped on about resting players when we could (like Geelong have been a master at) but no, we played them until they broke down, to the point we barely had enough players to field a team.

Since then, we dropped from 2nd, to scraping into the finals in 8th before being blown away 10 goals to nothing to start the match.
Following year, we didn't learn from our mistakes, we doubled down.....and fell again, ultimately to 11th, but at one stage 16th, and never above 10th.

I expect a similar fall this year.
So yes, off a cliff.
If you think i'm being extreme, but you're not being extreme enough.

We had a prelim side with not a care in the world at the halfway point of the year which we turned into a rebuild over the next 18 months. How is that for extreme?
16
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: Forwards-How do we fit them all in.
Last post by northernblue -
In a parallel universe Josh said " Haven't really thought much about about giving the ball to anyone, one of the hbf's suggested that big bombs into the 50m arc were good fun as the ball comes back quick so we get a few more stats and that helps as this year is my contract year"
"Footys not hard, just keep banging it in high, wide and handsome and our small forwards will get the job done" he added...
17
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: Forwards-How do we fit them all in.
Last post by DJC -
Josh Fraser's thoughts:

On his role:

"I’ll look after the forwards and some of the offence. They’ve had a pretty strong offensive profile particularly from the back half over the last 12-18 months, but some of our connection inside 50 hasn’t been to the level we’d like so we’ve got some work to do there. It’s pretty exciting that we’ve got some fresh players coming in and a new look in the front half, some new opportunities and ways to move the ball inside 50 and create scoring opportunities. The list itself is exciting: to come in and put a new spin on things with some new ideas with a coaching group that is really open and receptive to that has been enjoyable."

On Carlton’s new forward dynamic:

"Having been at the Pies, that was one of the great strengths: not being solely reliant on one or two players, but having such an even contribution in the front half and becoming quite dynamic in the way we played and moved in the forward 50. I see similarities with Carlton, having brought in some new players. Some of it is reliant on how we move the ball inside 50, but having different avenues to goal is also important. When I look at the forward line and how we’re operating over pre-season, I certainly see the upside with that. We’ve got Harry down there who’s going to be a beacon and draw some football, while bringing in Will Hayward and Ben Ainsworth, there are some exciting options inside 50."

On Will Hayward’s impact:

"Definitely there’s the leadership side to it. His talent has been on show from day one and he’s one of those guys that has an incredible work rate. From his time at Sydney, he’s very role-compliant which is going to be important for us. He’s got the ability to play different roles in the front half and I’ve also enjoyed watching him compete in the air and apply pressure at ground level - he’s that multi-faceted forward, which is important. With the leadership side of things, he’s come from a great culture and environment so he’ll add to us enormously in that regard."

On Harry McKay:

"I still think he’s got so much upside, Harry. For his size and his work rate and his ability in the air, he’s going to draw the best defender each week. Importantly, he’s got a role of making others around him better. He’s clearly going to be a focal point for us in the front half: if he’s playing this role, it might open up opportunities for others as well. I think he can take his game to another level, there aren’t many of his size and shape that move the way he does. He’s had a really good start to pre-season and he’s a great character around the group with good leadership qualities. A lot of it will be how he allows our forward line to function: how he’s creating space, how he’s able to bring the ball to ground, his ability to apply pressure in the front half. That will allow us to have an impact as a collective - he’ll have days where he’s kicking four and five, he’ll also have days where he kicks one or two but is bringing others into the game that we’ll be looking for."

On a new-look club:

"It does feel different, to a degree. I’ve been fortunate to be in a few different environments, and I think footy clubs by and large are full of great people with great intentions that are striving towards the same thing. The thing I’ve enjoyed is the synergy within the coaching group: ‘Vossy’ has done a great job leading and driving that. His leadership qualities are outstanding, and he’s brought in a group of coaches that complement each other but we’re able to have robust discussions as well. Beyond the coaching group, the support staff are terrific people, which goes a long way to team success. The thing with Collingwood is you saw the product on-field, and a lot of the players are the frontmen for that, but the staff around that that build out a club are so important as well."

On emerging youth:

"There are a lot of guys that I don’t know, and I’m getting a fresh lens on them. I’m excited by some of the youth: there’s some talent there that might not have had a lot of exposure but can bring some upside to us. It’s nice to come in with a fresh set of eyes, observe and help develop and mould some of these young players as well."

It's good to see that Josh is looking to improve our connection inside the forward 50.  I think that the addition of Will Hayward is a significant part of how we're going to go about that, and how were going to add to our avenues to goal.  I'm looking forward to seeing whether Will lives up to expectations and how much his presence improves our scoring power.
18
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by DJC -
Quote from: Lods – on
Don't give too much weight to a dozen people voting. We could hold the election in my lounge room.

That could be an interesting gathering Lods.  Do you have a date in mind? :)

Building a list isn't just drafting A-graders, however you define them, but it's a factor.  More important is using trades, free agency, rookie selections and contract management to maintain a sustainable list with depth and the ability to execute the gameplan.

Without wishing to re-ignite an old debate, SOS wasn't sacked because of his list management, it was club politics.  Furthermore, he had signalled his intention to move on.  In that context, how many players had SOS added to our list who were at A-grade level at the time of his departure?  I would say one; Jacob Weitering (Charlie, Harry and Sam Walsh's break out years were still to come).

How many A-graders has Austin added to our list to date? Again, I would say one; George Hewett.  There are plenty of B-graders to go with George and a couple of potential A-graders, if they live up to the hype.

As an aside, Brad Lloyd reckons that we have three A-graders - Cripps, Weitering and Walsh - and four B-graders - McKay, Cerra, Hewett and Saad.
19
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Lods -
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: Lods – on


I think you give a bit too much weight to our polls :D
A dozen votes on our website with a wide range of biased views is hardly 'public opinion' ;)

These polls are nothing but a reflection of the past and anticipation for the future.
Those that think we haven't recruited well will give a different emphasis to new players than those who see how these players may fit into, and complement, the side.

Our starting team this year will probably look a bit different to the side 'we' end up with in the polls
In fact after a couple of practice games we'd probably come up with a completely differen side.

They have little validity other than how a very small group of people view the team at a point in time.

The question was asked before ...what makes an A grader and the answer is usually time.
Very few players hit the ground as A graders and it usually takes two or three years to establish themselves.

Cowan
O. Hollands
Hof
Smith
Dean

Ask us again in four years time about these players and we would probably get a different answer...and that doesn't account for players that at the present may be 'cocooned' waiting to emerge.

Its not definitive, sure, but its pretty clear that this site is not leaving out a-graders though is it.
It shows that those players are borderline best 23....and thats the point. Anyway can draft borderline best 23 players.
We lost 2 silvagni a-graders
We still have a few silvagni a-graders.
How many austin a-graders do we have despite him recruiting 75% of the list.

Every year its a 'work in progress, you can't judge yet' well when can we judge?
Performances wise we've fallen off a cliff.
Player wise we've lost more talented players than we've brought in.
Of the players we've brought in, the best hopes we have are 18+19yo kids so by the time they develop, our existing a-graders will be on the way out....and currently, their replacements are not on the list.

As a collective site, i liken our list management thought processes to the frog in the pan that slowly boils. Its happening too slowly for anyone to realise, but its bad news.

Gee, you talk in extremes.
"Fallen off a cliff"
Have you been paying attention to what's happened with injury an off field shenanigans the last two years.  ::)

Don't give too much weight to a dozen people voting. We could hold the election in my lounge room.