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91
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: Where will Carlton finish?
Last post by PaulP -
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
@ Lods and @ PaulP
You make excellent, logical points. Unfortunately, the vast majority of Carlton supporters don't see it this way, they only things they see are:
1. The fact that we haven't won a premiership in 31 years.
2. Playing finals every year.
3. Ladder Position (improvement year on year).
The above are all fine as expectations for fans and the club, the problem with our club has been that the same person has copped the blame for it every time they have been met (by fans and the club), the coach.
There are a host of reasons for the above three key objectives being met/not met. What's important is that those administering the club properly analyse those reasons and act on rectifying them in a measured way. Whether it's the coach, high performance, injuries, players not adhering to club mandates etc, I care not, as long as it's dealt with properly and professionally.
Over the years, I have felt that the club as acted on the of whim the supporter base and the media. I'd like to think with the recent appointments of those in charge, that has now changed.

I'll just add this on coaching, IMO there isn't a hell of lot of difference between all the coaches and games styles these days, I personally think the key to success is the right mix of talent, experience, workmanlike role players, the cohesion of the all the above and consistent availability of the above.

Yes agreed. The best chance of getting it right is to have good decision makers with access to good data, free of undue interference.
92
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: Where will Carlton finish?
Last post by Thryleon -
I can see a situation where the coach isnt winning and then retains his position.  Its all about how they go about doing their job, and how we are doing.

If the wheels are falling off, then its bad, but if we are competitive but not quite displaying the ability to secure 4 points then he can probably keep the job regardless of results.

Sometimes there's more to it than the end result which is what coaches get judged on.
93
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: Where will Carlton finish?
Last post by Gointocarlton -
@ Lods and @ PaulP
You make excellent, logical points. Unfortunately, the vast majority of Carlton supporters don't see it this way, they only things they see are:
1. The fact that we haven't won a premiership in 31 years.
2. Playing finals every year.
3. Ladder Position (improvement year on year).
The above are all fine as expectations for fans and the club, the problem with our club has been that the same person has copped the blame for it every time they have been met (by fans and the club), the coach.
There are a host of reasons for the above three key objectives being met/not met. What's important is that those administering the club properly analyse those reasons and act on rectifying them in a measured way. Whether it's the coach, high performance, injuries, players not adhering to club mandates etc, I care not, as long as it's dealt with properly and professionally.
Over the years, I have felt that the club as acted on the of whim the supporter base and the media. I'd like to think with the recent appointments of those in charge, that has now changed.

I'll just add this on coaching, IMO there isn't a hell of lot of difference between all the coaches and games styles these days, I personally think the key to success is the right mix of talent, experience, workmanlike role players, the cohesion of the all the above and consistent availability of the above.
94
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: Where will Carlton finish?
Last post by PaulP -
Quote from: Lods – on
Which is essentially what I'm saying.
We don't have the information to make that judgement other than win-loss and ladder position.

Those that do, will make that call (or not make it ) based on a lot more than results.
And when and if they do, we should accept that it's been made with a whole lot more information than we possess.
Not just because "It's the old Carlton way".
That's a cliche that has no bearing to the current, very different make-up of the current regime.

We want and need a coach who can impact and get the side combining to the best of their ability.
It's actually a challenge for Voss...and one that could enhance his reputation if he can get a good season despite the loss of a few key players.

No question that the various stakeholders inside the 4 walls have plenty of experience and access to data that we can only dream about. This is beyond dispute. But the process of moving from data analysis to decision making is not pure. It should be, but it isn't. Leaving aside the fact that those looking at the data may be incompetent, pressed for time, did not conduct the date gathering properly etc., the bigger issue is that vested interests and power asymmetries can result in decisions that don't reflect the data. Board members who have sway and force an outcome contrary to the data, angry supporters who demand change without really knowing the facts etc. These types of issues unfortunately can have a major impact on the club's direction, and not for the better.
95
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: Where will Carlton finish?
Last post by shawny -
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: northernblue – on


Unless they think we can do well in our first 4-8 games and want to make an announcement then…?
Be smarter to do it now.

I can sorta understand but don’t agree with the decision to allow Voss to coach into 26 but I think tactically they’ve missed the chance to make this 12 month extension.
Maybe if Davies was on board earlier it may have happened this way Krudds.

I was fine with voss getting the right to coach or his contract.
Either way, once we showed him to stay and we cut the list the way we did, the only fair thing to do is give him the extra year. The expectations from supporters and media alike will fixate on his contract to the detriment of the club. So contract him and get that our of the equation.

I don't expect results to be favourable early on, so dint risk it. Sign him now.

This sound also help with talent aquisition as the unknown about who will coach is removed.

All this extension talk is based imo off one critical point which has not been mentioned.... Can Voss coach ?

My personal thoughts lean more towards no then yes so imo (provided we get an ok run with injuries) unless we 'improve' this year despite the list on paper being weaker but hopefully healthier then last year the board and fan confidence in Voss being the man wont be there.

The coaching landscape is one that very few are given extensions unless they have runs on the board (Voss doesnt) or there team is improving - you could argue this is not happening for a host of reasons.

I cant see him surviving and dont think he should if we have another poor year. He has had a decent tenure in a results based industry and this will be his last year if he is seen to fail again.

With a fit list i think the club will be expecting finals action and missing it again will be the end of Voss   
96
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: Where will Carlton finish?
Last post by Lods -
Quote from: PaulP – on
A professional sporting organization is a complex system, with an array of moving parts and relationships.  I don't think one needs to look too far to see that the idea of a direct and simplistic causal link between coach and results is flawed.

Which is essentially what I'm saying.
We don't have the information to make that judgement other than win-loss and ladder position.

Those that do, will make that call (or not make it ) based on a lot more than results.
And when and if they do, we should accept that it's been made with a whole lot more information than we possess.
Not just because "It's the old Carlton way".
That's a cliche that has no bearing to the very different make-up of the current regime.

We want and need a coach who can impact and get the side combining to the best of their ability.
It's actually a challenge for Voss...and one that could enhance his reputation if he can get a good season despite the loss of a few key players.
97
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: Where will Carlton finish?
Last post by PaulP -
I was somewhat heartened by last year's decision to stick with Voss, although I would not credit the club too much because IMO it was a fairly obvious decision to make. One can only hope that this represents another step in the continued evolution of the club to a modem, professional outfit, and not just a blip on the radar before we revert to type.
98
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: Where will Carlton finish?
Last post by PaulP -
A professional sporting organization is a complex system, with an array of moving parts and relationships.  I don't think one needs to look too far to see that the idea of a direct and simplistic causal link between coach and results is flawed.
99
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: Where will Carlton finish?
Last post by Lods -
One of the problems is that we're looking at things from a distance.

We don't see the interactions  between coaches and players.
We don't get feedback from the players.
We don't get an up-close idea of roles the players are assigned and their responses.
We can't get in the head of those who are making decisions on coaching future.
Are they confident they have the right man, or are they just letting him see out a contract before their preferred coaching choices become available?

The last two years we've had significant issues, particularly in the area of injuries and player continuity.
As a result it's hard for us to make a judgement on the coach's performance ...other than on field results, and ladder position.
And they haven't been good.

I agree with Kruddler that a show of faith would be to add that extra year to the existing contract...and state that it's a two year work in progress, with the real test coming during season 2027.
But the time to do that is fast running out, and so far they've chosen not to go down that path.

Coach changes are nearly always results driven.
But if you're confident you have the right man you can stick with them a little longer.
But because some clubs have success with that approach it doesn't necessarily apply to other clubs.
Recognising you don't have the right person is above our pay grade...mostly because we don't have access to players and feedback.
Recognising the right time to make a change is a difficult judgement.

So at the moment Voss is in the deep end without a life jacket.
Sink or swim.
He will be under pressure.
It will be a topic of discussion.
It may end up being a distraction
The only way to prevent that (if they're not going to extend him pre-season) is to win more than he loses.
100
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: Where will Carlton finish?
Last post by PaulP -
In 2025, I would have conducted a sense check with a particular emphasis on the medium term future, and all being well I would have given Voss an extension into 2027, with an option for 2028 if 2027 results warrant it.