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91
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Last post by LP -
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Netanyahu is within rights to steam roll palestine and solve that problem once and for all,
Surely nobody, neither side in this dispute and nobody in any dispute, has the right to target facilities or take actions that cause the collateral death of children and infants, either directly or indirectly.

Target military, terrorists and gorillas all you like, but stay away from civilians and children.
92
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Lods -
You can follow any rules you like to make up. ;)
I don't control your posting.

But it's all pretty futile
You're not going to change my mind
I'm not going to change yours

I think we've both exhausted any arguments.
We seem to go over the same points over and over....across a number of threads
I'm not convinced by any of your arguments, although I can see the points you're trying to make.
I just don't agree with them.
I just see them as worst case....with little regard given to the issues that have impacted the club's performance the last two years.
You're obviously not convinced by any of mine.

You think we'll be worse
I think we'll be the same or better

Injuries will play a part.
Depth will play a part.
Luck will play a part.
Development of young players will play a part.
How we cover our losses will play a part.
How the new players gel will play a part.
Off field issues may play a part.

There are enough variables there that either one of us could end up right.
So it's over to the players to determine the outcome.
93
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by kruddler -
Quote from: Lods – on
Hang on!
You can't have it both ways.
You can't say 2023 is SOS's team and then in the next breath say Austin has had six years.
The only one moving  goal posts around is your good self. ::)

All list managers build on their predecessors list to some extent.
Cripps and Docherty were part of that for Silvagni so was Ed Curnow
You can't just dismiss the players that Austin added for 2023.
And the real fruits of Austin's tenure are yet to hit their peak.

lol.....i'm trying to follow YOUR rules and you won't let me.

If i'm trying to follow my rules, you wont let me.

Why am i not surprised.

Current list management team is infallable. Now i see the light.  ::)  ::)  ::)
94
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Thryleon -
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: Lods – on


So are you saying our list manager had built a side capable of winning a flag :D  :D

Potentially....but our previous one...
cant praise sos and condemn Austin when Saad, acres and cerra were the needle movers for us in 2023 and all of them were brought in by Austin. Could argue Hewett as well but we'll call him a dead heat with Kennedy.

They all had nothing to do with sos.
95
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Lods -
Hang on!
You can't have it both ways.
You can't say 2023 is SOS's team and then in the next breath say Austin has had six years.
The only one moving  goal posts around is your good self. ::)

All list managers build on their predecessors list to some extent.
Cripps and Docherty were part of that for Silvagni so was Ed Curnow
You can't just dismiss the players that Austin added for 2023.
And the real fruits of Austin's tenure are yet to hit their peak.

96
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by kruddler -
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: kruddler – on


Potentially....but our previous one...

...was long gone.

The list position we found ourselves in was a combination of the efforts of both.
You can't have one without the other.
And two injury hit and disrupted seasons later you want the one left gone.

Crash mentioned 2002 but there was another injury hit season in 2014 when many of our best players including Judd and Kreuzer missed big chunks....and Robinson and Garlett went off the rails.
The brains trust at the time decided we needed a rebuild and the incoming list manager cut the list and sent the club into oblivion.

Hang on, we can't judge the current crop for years, but we can give them kudos for piggybacking on the previous guys efforts within a couple years??

Geez these goal posts are moving so often i don't even know which way i'm kicking now!

From a previous list....these players were NOT SOS's from 2023.....

Hewett
Saad
Cerra
Acres
Docherty - Before SOS
Cripps - Before SOS
O. Hollands
Motlop
Jordan Boyd
Cincotta

From that list, 2 are not by either.
1 is already delisted
2 are on the outs (Boyd and Acres)
...and Motlop was rumoured to be on the way out to PA this past trade period (Durdin got booted instead).

So yeah, SOS's team.
97
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Lods -
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: Lods – on


So are you saying our list manager had built a side capable of winning a flag :D  :D

Potentially....but our previous one...

...was long gone.

The list position we found ourselves in was a combination of the efforts of both.
You can't have one without the other.
And two injury hit and disrupted seasons later you want the one left gone.

Crash mentioned 2002 but there was another injury hit season in 2014 when many of our best players including Judd and Kreuzer missed big chunks....and Robinson and Garlett went off the rails.
The brains trust at the time decided we needed a rebuild and the incoming list manager cut the list and sent the club into oblivion.
98
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by kruddler -
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: kruddler – on


2 sides to every coin.

How well did we do with Charlie doing nothing? Imagine if we get him up to speed and added depth around him, rather than losing depth. Thats not so 'magical' now is it?

Results did worsen, but thats about the playing list rather than the coaching.
Even Docherty said as much post retirement.....thats if you don't want to take my word for it which was well documented at the time as well.

....and one last thing.
The result 'proves' we were brittle?

In case you are unaware, that team that showed how 'brittle' we were, were a goal off having a 3-peat.....and we had them 5 goals down on their home deck early.
Doesn't seem brittle to me. Seems to have been beaten by the best side in the modern game right now

So are you saying our list manager had built a side capable of winning a flag :D  :D

Potentially....but our previous one...
99
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by crashlander -
One point that we don't tend to mention much when we talk about injuries, is that it almost thirty years since we last had a more or less complete list to select from. Thirty years. And it just happens to coincide with our worst performance as a club? No, I don't think so.
And it isn't that we've had spuds for fitness people over that period of time.

If you look at the teams who have enjoyed success over that time period, most of them had reasonably complete list to choose from. Yes, there have been a few who have had injury problems, but nothing on the scale that we've suffered.
We've seen over the last couple of years that side who experience significant injuries tend to fail. Essendon in 2025 is an excellent example, although Collingwood in the last two years has also been a good example.

So, since Rd 4 1996 (the last time we had less than 3 on the injured list), we have struggled.

Now injuries haven't been our only problem; we've had recruiting issues (perhaps the worst periods of recruiting in our history), boardroom dramas, lack on off-field leadership and uninspired coaching selections, but the common theme across the entire period has been injuries to significant personnel.
For example, Wayne Brittain's first year or so wasn't bad, but when the injuries hit, we fell off the cliff. We never really got to see how good he could be as a coach because of that; the board lost patience and didn't supply with with the recruits we needed.
There were times under Pagan that we didn't have any senior listed players left in the VFL because of injuries late in the season.
I could go on. 2024, for example.

What can we do about it? Now that is a good question.
[1] We've changed fitness people a number of times. At present, we might not be having the same number of injuries as we did in 2024, but we don't appear as fit either. It will be interesting to see if that has been addressed over the summer.
[2] We have improved our way of recruiting. There have been questions over our draft strategies in recent times, and fair enough. But we have radically improved our recruiting since the dark days of Wayne Hughes. We managed to have one almost perfect Draft, under Stephen Silvagni, even though most of those players have now left us, but his next couple we unmitigated disasters. Since Austin has come in, we don't have so many peaks and troughs, but ...
We have clearly improved, but we can do better.
[3] Off-field we are a much tighter, much improved ship. We don't appear to have the factional infighting that crippled us for years. Doesn't mean we can't improve in this area.
[4] Coaching - maybe the biggest remaining question. With a whole new crew in 2026, we'll see if Voss has what it takes to get us success. Still, we are clearly thinking to improve here, where, for years, we just just plodded on.

So, we have addressed a number of our issues, how successfully we'll find out soon. But, until we have most of our players fit and available for most of the time, we won't have addressed the last issue that needs serious attention.

(It was lovely to see the AFLW girls this season play with a minimum of injuries. We weren't quite injury free, but no Carlton side has been better in this area in thirty years. And how did we perform? We significantly improved. If this isn't a lesson for a club, then I don't know what is.)
100
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Lods -
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: Baggers – on


And I would argue that as a preliminary final side in '23, we were brittle as evidenced by the result. How did Charles perform in that finals series? The cracks were there to the objective observer. In terms of the coaching group (leadership)... we did stay the course and the results for 2024/5 worsened each year.

To assume that because you make a preliminary final you'll just naturally, even magically, improve the next year is naive at best... hubris at worst.

2 sides to every coin.

How well did we do with Charlie doing nothing? Imagine if we get him up to speed and added depth around him, rather than losing depth. Thats not so 'magical' now is it?

Results did worsen, but thats about the playing list rather than the coaching.
Even Docherty said as much post retirement.....thats if you don't want to take my word for it which was well documented at the time as well.

....and one last thing.
The result 'proves' we were brittle?

In case you are unaware, that team that showed how 'brittle' we were, were a goal off having a 3-peat.....and we had them 5 goals down on their home deck early.
Doesn't seem brittle to me. Seems to have been beaten by the best side in the modern game right now

So are you saying our list manager had built a side capable of winning a flag :D  :D