Poll
Question:
For the rest of the season should we
Option 1: Play the kids
votes: 15
Option 2: Give the likely discards one last shot
votes: 7
Option 3: Play the team most likely to win us the game
votes: 5
Whichever way you look at it, this season looks like being a bit of a disaster.
If the highlihghts of the season are the improved form of Rowe and Casboult and a some good games from Menzel and Buckley then we really are having a forgettable year.
What do we salvage from the wreck.
It's probably at the point where it now becomes about 2015 and the years after.
With that in mind should we now look to be getting games into kids..... or do we give those with real question marks over them a series of a half a dozen games to give it "one last shot."
Either way it probably won't make a lot of difference to results.
Although it's probably against the accepted wisdom I'm leaning to the 'One last chance' option.
Going in and out of the side doesn't give a player a chance to settle and it doesn't give him a chance for redemption if he has a shocker.
Playing these guys in the seniors also has another advantage. Our younger players get a chance to develop as a group (team) in the VFL, and the team aspect seems to have been something we've been lacking for about a decade.
Take Waite, Judd, Carrots and Simpson out of this side and we probably have 1 win. That's what we're staring at next year. There is no one last shot the question is who does the rebuild? A disgruntled Rogers? Imagine he walks before the draft.
Take Waite, Judd, Carrots and Simpson out of this side and we probably have 1 win. That's what we're staring at next year. There is no one last shot the question is who does the rebuild? A disgruntled Rogers? Imagine he walks before the draft.
Take away Gibbs Murphy and Yarran and were building on sand.
We don't have a lot of base.
That's what the rest of this year is about....... finding another cornerstone or two
Whether that's in the kids or someone who otherwise might be chopped is the question.
Take Waite, Judd, Carrots and Simpson out of this side and we probably have 1 win. That's what we're staring at next year. There is no one last shot the question is who does the rebuild? A disgruntled Rogers? Imagine he walks before the draft.
If he walked before the draft that would help not hinder us...he along with that bozo Hughes is what has us in this mess...
No doubt we need to unearth 6 - 8 very good players from somewhere. Playing the old guys won't help us find them. I don't like bigsudden changes, big bang change usually just leaves a mess but we're committed to Mick and he can't do it with this group.
Take Waite, Judd, Carrots and Simpson out of this side and we probably have 1 win. That's what we're staring at next year. There is no one last shot the question is who does the rebuild? A disgruntled Rogers? Imagine he walks before the draft.
If he walked before the draft that would help not hinder us...he along with that bozo Hughes is what has us in this mess...
I'm more concerned about if he's decided to leave already and will do SFA until his time is up.
Take Waite, Judd, Carrots and Simpson out of this side and we probably have 1 win. That's what we're staring at next year. There is no one last shot the question is who does the rebuild? A disgruntled Rogers? Imagine he walks before the draft.
If he walked before the draft that would help not hinder us...he along with that bozo Hughes is what has us in this mess...
I'm more concerned about if he's decided to leave already and will do SFA until his time is up.
He has a three year deal ...so I dont see him leaving and I dont see anyone wanting him either.
No doubt the club will continue to try and woo a big name recruiter/list manager to run the show but the odds on that are not great given we
are in a mess and its a bitch of a job at the minute trying to fix it.
I think Malthouse will have to do a Sheedy and get heavily involved and oversee the draft/trade period and monitor every selection...
No doubt we need to unearth 6 - 8 very good players from somewhere. Playing the old guys won't help us find them. I don't like bigsudden changes, big bang change usually just leaves a mess but we're committed to Mick and he can't do it with this group.
I'm not so much talking about the older guys.
We pretty much know what they can do.
It's the younger guys who've been on the list a few years and may only have had a few opportunities but are now facing the axe.
Watson's an example. Although he has another year I suspect if they could he'd be gone at the end of the year.
Now he comes back for one game and has an absolute shocker and out he goes.
Confidence shot and no chance at redemption
Bring him back tell him he has half a dozen games. Play him forward and then at the end of the day you cant say he wasn't given every opportunity (Most would say he already has....but what do we lose.....a half a dozen games into another youngster in a topsy, turvy unsettled side with little to play for may do the young fellow more harm than good).
Play the kids? Can we play SOS' kids? If not, then the shelf is bare.
Option D
Play the team most likely to not win us the game
Personally I think we should go with the team that deserves to be out there every week, whatever that looks like. I don't want to see anyone handed a game because in all honestly they wont do much anyway.
I would rather any kid go into the off season thinking they havnt cracked a game yet and pushing themselves harder then having been given a freebie and thinking they are alright. Have to push the right culture.
Hard for kids to shine in a struggling, unbalanced side.
Likely discards have had their go and should be consigned to the NB's...I'd be playing the kids like Holman, Graham etc and promoting rookies like Reynolds, Sheehan and even Wood.
Johnson looks handy......and if we can find one other new player that play from that group then I we have acheived something.
Watching Watson, McInnes etc do the sam old same old is just wasting our time...we need to be moving now on shaping the list for next season
and cleaning out the deadwood.
We need to find out now who is worth keeping and who is not, so those who have been around for a couple of years should all be closely looked at. If it means giving them senior game time fine, the season is shot anyway. We need to move on all of those who don't show something and that includes all of those we already know about such as Temay, Watson and McInnes.
There aren't that many kids left to try out, Cripps and Giles are out injured. Would like to see Holeman in a seniors game, I think he'll get his chance before the year comes to a close. Would have liked to see Temay play a seniors game by now but if he isn't up to it there not much you can do. Of those who've already made a senior appearance and are in the development category the only ones that comes to mind are Graham and Lucas. Watson has been given a fair go, the dielma being he can't seem to string a few consecutive appearances together. If I'm not mistaken we gave Watson a new contract for this year and next?, granted Rowe hasn't done him any favours with his own good form but he should have come on by now. The cupboard is pretty much empty.
Oh I Forgot Reynolds, he's one I'd like to see. The. There's Wood, I can't understand why he hasn't been played as yet.
The cupboard is pretty much empty.
That's my real concern
To rebuild you need a strong foundation.
We don't have that, so in effect we need to take a couple of seasons to develop the base for a rebuild.
We have to rebuild to rebuild.
The scary thing is we could be as strong now as we will be for the next couple of years.
D: Other - Play the team most likely to instill the correct culture going forward.
Play players who are putting in. Be that kids, oldies, whoever.
We need to send a message to the playing list - if you want to get a game, you better deserve it and perform when you get it.
Yep that goes well for Graham who is in the best for the reserves every week yet gets a token quarter here and there in which he racks up quite a few touches, and then ends up back in the twos.
Yep that goes well for Graham who is in the best for the reserves every week yet gets a token quarter here and there in which he racks up quite a few touches, and then ends up back in the twos.
He's been a bit unlucky, i admit.
However, as we discovered there is a limit to the same type of players you can have in the side.
Curnow+Carrazzo+Mclean in the side is probably one too many tagging/inside midfielders. So thats why both Cachia and Graham cannot get in the team.
You can't really have a go at those 3 for not 'putting in' though.
Personally i think Carrazzo and McLean are coming to an end and Graham will step up.
You still have to go with team balance.
intransigent.
Mick will do it his way until its so bloody obvious he's wrong people begin to feel embarrassed for him.
2011 GF sticks in my mind like it was yesterday. Played injured players over fit ones and when it was all going wrong after half time he DID NOTHING till it was too late.
Yes, hell of an effort to get there, but he get's an idea in his head about a situation (won't play kids, wont use impact players as subs, brings them on late), a game plan (2011 GF) or a player (Betts and Laidler) and he won't shift.
I suspect he's doing that now with who he will and won't play.
David Parkin used to constantly stall on making in game moves until it was to late and he was one of our all time great coaches. I'm sure I wasn't the only supporter calling for in game changes well before he acted, often when it' was done and dusted. He was also reluctant to take risks with young developing players preferring to trade picks for seniors.
Personally I think we should go with the team that deserves to be out there every week, whatever that looks like. I don't want to see anyone handed a game because in all honestly they wont do much anyway.
I would rather any kid go into the off season thinking they havnt cracked a game yet and pushing themselves harder then having been given a freebie and thinking they are alright. Have to push the right culture.
this. Adding that the focus is to continue learning and building a steely resolve. Whether we get over the line for a win is irrelevant at this point, but we need to be pushing for every won contest that we can.
or a player (Betts and Laidler) and he won't shift.
I suspect he's doing that now with who he will and won't play.
Amazing! Now Malthouse got rid of Betts now did he?
or a player (Betts and Laidler) and he won't shift.
I suspect he's doing that now with who he will and won't play.
Amazing! Now Malthouse got rid of Betts now did he?
Someone else was coach last year ?
someone else responsible for getting Daisy.?
I must have missed it.
We didn't get rid of Betts, he left on his own accord.
We didn't get rid of Betts, he left on his own accord.
He's gone because of MM in the same way Daisy is here because of MM.
Eddie couldn't play MM footy.
The truth is I have no problems with coAches making these decisions but they also take 100% of the blame.
Eddie wasn't Sauce Jacobs fighting for a spot with 3 other guys he was a 50 goal a year forward that Mick wanted to run through the midfield.
And Jeffy will go at seasons end as well. That's 100 goals down the tube to keep Mick happy.
Free Agency: Look it up some time.
Free Agency: Look it up some time.
Paragraphs. Look it up sometime.
or a player (Betts and Laidler) and he won't shift.
I suspect he's doing that now with who he will and won't play.
Amazing! Now Malthouse got rid of Betts now did he?
Someone else was coach last year ?
someone else responsible for getting Daisy.?
I must have missed it.
Don't worry, he's delusional. He's so far up MM's ass that if he says anything against the man he will look like the biggest fool that ever entered the world.
Can we lift the level of discussion a bit here... it,s getting tiring fellas.
We didn't get rid of Betts, he left on his own accord.
He's gone because of MM in the same way Daisy is here because of MM.
Eddie couldn't play MM footy.
The truth is I have no problems with coAches making these decisions but they also take 100% of the blame.
Eddie wasn't Sauce Jacobs fighting for a spot with 3 other guys he was a 50 goal a year forward that Mick wanted to run through the midfield.
And Jeffy will go at seasons end as well. That's 100 goals down the tube to keep Mick happy.
And what did we achieve when Eddie and Jeff were kicking 50+ goals? Oh that's right, sweet FA. We weren't good enough then, and yeah we've gone backwards, but there at least we seem to be more proactive in getting the right cattle in now. Trade in cheap quality (Docherty and Everitt) and head to the draft. We'll do the same again this year.
It's not going to be a quick fix, but thanks to the previous coach/administrations inability to turn over the list as needed we're starting from a long way back.
And what did we achieve when Eddie and Jeff were kicking 50+ goals? Oh that's right, sweet FA. We weren't good enough then, and yeah we've gone backwards, but there at least we seem to be more proactive in getting the right cattle in now. Trade in cheap quality (Docherty and Everitt) and head to the draft. We'll do the same again this year.
I wouldn't blame the players for the club's policy of not talking with anyone unless a deal was in our favour.
I think the style of football we play now is more conducive to being successful in the long run.
Previously it was more hit and hope brute force whilst now it requires a little more accuracy and structure. Overall it's a proper way to play the game.
It also seems less reliant on individuals performing to a high level and more reliant on many playing their role.
I think we might be getting a little too emotional about it all. Even in what many deem to be an ordinary performance we were in it to win it, and had we not given them a five goal head start we arguably would have won without fixing much. This could've been the case for many of our matches this season.
I think the style of football we play now is more conducive to being successful in the long run.
Previously it was more hit and hope brute force whilst now it requires a little more accuracy and structure. Overall it's a proper way to play the game.
I think the style we play now is so physically taxing on players it can only be successful on the day against teams with a similar hard flooding boundary hugging game plan.
The future of AFL is there for all to see in the way the Dawks, GWS, GC and Norp play. That is why the Dawks valued Ratten and we don't, we looked back while they look forward. Forward to high speed, fast moving accurate ball movement backed up by large bodied mobile marking targets generating a massive number of scoring opportunities. They back themselves in to outscore opponents, not to stop opponents from scoring.
The chip and chop, flood and zone stuff has been well and truly unraveled by the precision foot skills and fast decision making of the modern teams. Hesitate and your dead, slow the game down and equally so, eventually you turn it over and then it's too late!
Hanging on to the safely, safely, safely game plan is like clinging to the Titanic because the lifeboat looks too flimsy! ;)
I think the style of football we play now is more conducive to being successful in the long run.
This is not really relevant a side from giving us an insight into where Mick has come short.
And what did we achieve when Eddie and Jeff were kicking 50+ goals? Oh that's right, sweet FA. We weren't good enough then, and yeah we've gone backwards, but there at least we seem to be more proactive in getting the right cattle in now. Trade in cheap quality (Docherty and Everitt) and head to the draft. We'll do the same again this year.
I wouldn't blame the players for the club's policy of not talking with anyone unless a deal was in our favour.
I don't blame the players at all. I'm simply saying that changes needed to be made and we previously didn't make them. Having 3 good small forwards was never going to make up for having 2 legitimate KPF's. Mick is trying to build the kind of list we need to be a contender. When we peaked under Ratten that list wasn't good enough to be a force. That's not to say we didn't have some players playing good football, but we needed a whole team playing great football. Eddie and Jeff had some good seasons under Ratten, but that wasn't good enough, so why shouldn't we look to change things and make them better?
And what did we achieve when Eddie and Jeff were kicking 50+ goals? Oh that's right, sweet FA. We weren't good enough then, and yeah we've gone backwards, but there at least we seem to be more proactive in getting the right cattle in now. Trade in cheap quality (Docherty and Everitt) and head to the draft. We'll do the same again this year.
I wouldn't blame the players for the club's policy of not talking with anyone unless a deal was in our favour.
I don't blame the players at all. I'm simply saying that changes needed to be made and we previously didn't make them. Having 3 good small forwards was never going to make up for having 2 legitimate KPF's. Mick is trying to build the kind of list we need to be a contender. When we peaked under Ratten that list wasn't good enough to be a force. That's not to say we didn't have some players playing good football, but we needed a whole team playing great football. Eddie and Jeff had some good seasons under Ratten, but that wasn't good enough, so why shouldn't we look to change things and make them better?
And Daisy is smashing it at the moment.
I think the style of football we play now is more conducive to being successful in the long run.
Previously it was more hit and hope brute force whilst now it requires a little more accuracy and structure. Overall it's a proper way to play the game.
I think the style we play now is so physically taxing on players it can only be successful on the day against teams with a similar hard flooding boundary hugging game plan.
The future of AFL is there for all to see in the way the Dawks, GWS, GC and Norp play. That is why the Dawks valued Ratten and we don't, we looked back while they look forward. Forward to high speed, fast moving accurate ball movement backed up by large bodied mobile marking targets generating a massive number of scoring opportunities. They back themselves in to outscore opponents, not to stop opponents from scoring.
The chip and chop, flood and zone stuff has been well and truly unraveled by the precision foot skills and fast decision making of the modern teams. Hesitate and your dead, slow the game down and equally so, eventually you turn it over and then it's too late!
Hanging on to the safely, safely, safely game plan is like clinging to the Titanic because the lifeboat looks too flimsy! ;)
I cant agree LP. I think the boundary style is a product of players taking too long to hit the next target and slowing play down too much.
I think our strength and conditioning in recent years has been lacking and this is why we get inconsistency no matter who has been in charge. I'm glad Buttifant is here as he has form in getting players to Afl standards, and I'm also glad we are not seeing instant results because of the Bombers situation. They transformed quickly look where that got them. I'm hoping to see a remarkable improvement next year.
The Hawks are a well oiled machine who have had continuity for the last seven plus years. Same with Geelong. North are still coming to terms with their style and Scott has had longer.
In any case time will tell.
And what did we achieve when Eddie and Jeff were kicking 50+ goals? Oh that's right, sweet FA. We weren't good enough then, and yeah we've gone backwards, but there at least we seem to be more proactive in getting the right cattle in now. Trade in cheap quality (Docherty and Everitt) and head to the draft. We'll do the same again this year.
I wouldn't blame the players for the club's policy of not talking with anyone unless a deal was in our favour.
I don't blame the players at all. I'm simply saying that changes needed to be made and we previously didn't make them. Having 3 good small forwards was never going to make up for having 2 legitimate KPF's. Mick is trying to build the kind of list we need to be a contender. When we peaked under Ratten that list wasn't good enough to be a force. That's not to say we didn't have some players playing good football, but we needed a whole team playing great football. Eddie and Jeff had some good seasons under Ratten, but that wasn't good enough, so why shouldn't we look to change things and make them better?
And Daisy is smashing it at the moment.
And Daisy was the only player we brought into the club last year ::)
I would rather any kid go into the off season thinking they havnt cracked a game yet and pushing themselves harder then having been given a freebie and thinking they are alright. Have to push the right culture.
I agree with this, senior games should be earned.
MM say's Holman and Byrne are close.
That will at least give me something to watch.
MM say's Holman and Byrne are close.
That will at least give me something to watch.
He also said if we play 3-4 kids we will get slaughtered....lets hope he shows some faith in youth and promotes a couple
this week and if he does I will gladly praise him..
I don't often post here, but i read alot...
A pies mate of mine said to me last year, Malthouse, will gut your your club, for 2 -4 years, and you will be no good, but if you stick fat, you'll be better for it.
TBH, thats what i'm seeing, and also some of the above posts are saying. Yes we're no good ATM, but in the right places I'm seeing improvement, and once the list is right, bingo...
I don't often post here, but i read alot...
A pies mate of mine said to me last year, Malthouse, will gut your your club, for 2 -4 years, and you will be no good, but if you stick fat, you'll be better for it.
TBH, thats what i'm seeing, and also some of the above posts are saying. Yes we're no good ATM, but in the right places I'm seeing improvement, and once the list is right, bingo...
Let's hope nato.
and folks I got it wrong it was the other Ciaran, Sheehan NOT Byrne.
What was noticeable in that presser was that MM made mention of everyone who's been close except Cachia and Graham.
Cachia has been injured, but I would have thought Graham might crack a mention.
I think Graham will play this week, full game.
Option D
Play the team most likely to not win us the game
I lolled ;D Draft picks?
Let Garlett and Waite play the rest of the year and see if they are worth keeping, FWIW i would keep both, but Micky M has different ideas i suspect.
Option D
Play the team most likely to not win us the game
I lolled ;D Draft picks?
Let Garlett and Waite play the rest of the year and see if they are worth keeping, FWIW i would keep both, but Micky M has different ideas i suspect.
Garlett kicked 40 last year and did his job...not sure why he is out form and favour but given what be worth on the market(not much) you would
probably keep him...Waite has failed to deliver on his talent during his entire career and is also injury prone, I wouldnt offer another contract.
@EB1
I wouldn't keep White either. I'd be moving Lachie back into defence and looking for a KPF or 2.
Don't know about Jeffie - he's been out of sorts for some time and I'd really like to understand what his problem is before making the call. No doubt when he's on song he looks pretty bl00dy good.
@EB1
I wouldn't keep White either. I'd be moving Lachie back into defence and looking for a KPF or 2.
Don't know about Jeffie - he's been out of sorts for some time and I'd really like to understand what his problem is before making the call. No doubt when he's on song he looks pretty bl00dy good.
I'm with you regarding White. I've gone off him this year. Move Hendo back to where he belongs, down back.
I'd keep Jeffy unless a good deal came along. He can be deadly when he is on song, most good teams have a zippy small who can kick goals.
@cookie and DU
I think he meant Waite and it was a typo. White and talent definitely do not belong in the same sentence unless accompanied by 'lack of'. I agree re White, never rated him at all.
I think Waite still has plenty to offer, we just don't get the best out of him.
@cookie and DU
I think he meant Waite and it was a typo. White and talent definitely do not belong in the same sentence unless accompanied by 'lack of'. I agree re White, never rated him at all.
I think Waite still has plenty to offer, we just don't get the best out of him.
Ah ok, in that case I'd be happy for Waite to repay the faith and overpayment ( having played on average around half the available games over almost the entire period of his current contract due to injury and silly suspensions) by accepting a single year by year offer on unders.
I did mean Waite but the same applies to White...dont think he is the answer down back at 190cm and not having the rebounding skills for the modern game that 3rd tall defenders need.
Waite is too hit or miss for me - can win games, can be a total d1ckhead. He's another aspect of our club I've grown weary of waiting for. Just can't rely on him. Trouble is, we are so short of good KP forwards we may have to hold on to him a bit longer.
Waite wont be here if Mick is so I guess one of us will get our wish.
Waite wont be here if Mick is so I guess one of us will get our wish.
I just can't see the point in getting rid of Waite - his value in trade has diminished and he offers depth which we don't have. We simply won't get value for him and his value to us is versatility.
Waite wont be here if Mick is so I guess one of us will get our wish.
I just can't see the point in getting rid of Waite - his value in trade has diminished and he offers depth which we don't have. We simply won't get value for him and his value to us is versatility.
Free agent. He'd probably pass the 500k hurdle for a first rounder but I also think it has to be for a number of years?
Waite wont be here if Mick is so I guess one of us will get our wish.
I just can't see the point in getting rid of Waite - his value in trade has diminished and he offers depth which we don't have. We simply won't get value for him and his value to us is versatility.
Free agent. He'd probably pass the 500k hurdle for a first rounder but I also think it has to be for a number of years?
I thought Waite was eligible for the veterans list now. There is another saving which we don't get by getting rid of him.
Yes but 400k to Waite and 600k for Judd opens up a mil and Mick has a job on the line.
I reckon a bunch of that has been eaten up resigning our number 1s though
or a player (Betts and Laidler) and he won't shift.
I suspect he's doing that now with who he will and won't play.
Amazing! Now Malthouse got rid of Betts now did he?
Someone else was coach last year ?
someone else responsible for getting Daisy.?
I must have missed it.
Betts was offered a contract and decided to go for bigger money at Adelaide, he was not discarded or got rid of. By your logic Ratten got rid of Jacobs, even bigger cock up.
and while we're at it Malthouse got rid of Laidler because he played like crap, he was only picked up by Sydney as a cheap last resort because they had a fire sale on second string players and Laidler was a bottom dollar last minute replacement. The fact that he's doing well in Sydney might have something to do with his relationship with Malthouse last year, or it may have something to do with the shock that no one wanted him and Sydney picked him up at the last minute, which could have given him the kick up the arse he needed.
Daisy is a calculated risk, it wasn't that long ago he was considered by many a top 5 player in the league. We needed more class and extroverts, Thomas fitted the bill. Sure we paid overs but you do most of the time to get someone out of their club. Betts was offered a reported 500K a year from Adelaide, we could have a gun goal kicking mid next season for only 200K more. He is getting better each game and hopefully without further injuries and a solid pre season he'll be right for 2015.
We need another solid year at the trade table like last season, get some more talent like a Docherty type, draft well which we'll be in a position to do a strong KP and a big midfielder at around 25. We have a base with Murphy, Gibbs, Yarran, Menzel, Henderson, Thomas, Buckley, Docherty. If things go our way and Kruezer comes back fit and well, Casboult works on his kicking, Cripps, Giles and Holman all have big pre seasons and Ed Curnow regaing his 2013 form. Plug in some role players like Everitt, White and Rowe.
Getting rid of three years wasted draft picks with Watson, Lucas and Bootsma will really hurt, that's why getting Docherty is a real bonus, we need to look at the top 30 picks from the last three seasons from out of state to see who's not getting a game and who would be of benefit by coming home. It would also help if they could play KP.