Princes Park => Robert Heatley Stand => Topic started by: crashlander on June 11, 2016, 11:54:20 am
Title: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: crashlander on June 11, 2016, 11:54:20 am
Change computers an try again. I've tried starting this thread 3 time now, to have the 'net drop out each time. So, here we go again!
I really want to win this. St Kilda's attitude needs adjustment. As I will be there, I am hoping for the correct result. I'll edit the Title when I get home after the game.
I'm home and I think the title fits well. :( Not impressed.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: blue4life on June 12, 2016, 03:50:30 pm
One of those games you have when you're a struggling side trying to improve. At least the boys kept at it until the bell but it's best to put that one behind us and look forward. Gorringe might make a forward one day but he won't be a ruckman.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 12, 2016, 03:54:57 pm
One of those games you have when you're a struggling side trying to improve. At least the boys kept at it until the bell but it's best to put that one behind us and look forward. Gorringe might make a forward one day but he won't be a ruckman.
Wouldnt totally blame Gorringe in the ruck...Kruezer wasnt great either and Hickey smashed us...I couldnt understand why Stevens was allowed to run onto Hickey taps with no one in front of him, just a clear path ahead.?
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: cookie2 on June 12, 2016, 03:55:58 pm
One of those games you have when you're a struggling side trying to improve. At least the boys kept at it until the bell but it's best to put that one behind us and look forward. Gorringe might make a forward one day but he won't be a ruckman.
Phillips will be back for the next game. Be interesting to see if Gorringe gets dropped or gets a game up forward. Everitt nor Walker were great today so I guess the question will be asked at MC.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: BlueAvenger on June 12, 2016, 03:59:45 pm
Hope we are as aggressive at the trade table as we were last year, that was just poo.
Gibbs back to his old tricks again, 0 tackles Gorringe was stinky Cas and 1AW kicked 3 each so they only just get a reprieve, just Everitt was stinky
Geez we frigg around the pill a lot, 416 touches to 354
they beat us 70 tackles to 43, stinky
i50's 64-48 in their favour
Because we screw around with the ball a $h1tload all the boys stats look good, but i'm really going to struggle handing out votes after that display of insipidness
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: sandsmere on June 12, 2016, 03:59:56 pm
A real reality check that one.
Wont hurt us I reckon. Got to expect a bit of that in our situation. Half a season into a 4-5 year rebuild.
Wont do any harm at all. It wasn't a real thrashing after all.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: cimm1979 on June 12, 2016, 04:00:08 pm
The usual melts coming from the usual people.
Sack him, delist him, get the big name, we'll never be anything with .......... in the side.
Phillips plays today instead of yesterday and it's a different game.
Team looked flat, need more speed around the footy, no ruck.
It's year 1.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 12, 2016, 04:02:16 pm
Phillips will be back for the next game. Be interesting to see if Gorringe gets dropped or gets a game up forward. Everitt nor Walker were great today so I guess the question will be asked at MC.
Next game is GWS...Mumford is the big solid type that Kruezer doesnt like playing on so I reckon you can back it in that Philips will play and Gorringe will be out... In fact GWS are a more quality skilfull version of Stkilda....pace, precision kicking and will have more firepower down forward.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Mondy on June 12, 2016, 04:02:47 pm
Gorringe is not a ruckman. If we keep him in the side, he needs to play forward.
Personally, I'd be dropping White, Everitt and Gorringe. I'd bring in Phillips, KJ - because if you're going to give him a game it might as well be against his old side - and Murphy. And if Murphy isn't fit, then I'd play Gorringe but as permanent forward.
The problem though was that we looked exhausted. Didn't want to run, didn't want to pressure and our tackling was insipid. Their speed cut us up, Stevens had his own ball.
Krooz looked like a man who needed a rest.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Mondy on June 12, 2016, 04:04:08 pm
I thought Plowman was fantastic. Tried all day.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Mondy on June 12, 2016, 04:05:44 pm
Next game is GWS...Mumford is the big solid type that Kruezer doesnt like playing on so I reckon you can back it in that Philips will play and Gorringe will be out... In fact GWS are a more quality skilfull version of Stkilda....pace, precision kicking and will have more firepower down forward.
Yes, if we let them run it will be a deeestroyation.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: laj on June 12, 2016, 04:08:55 pm
Kreuzer is no good when he shares the ruck duties, stars when he does it on his own most of the day. Been the same for a long time. Ruck/rover type ruckman that needs to stay on the ball. Hence rather one ruckman so we can bring other type of players in, like Jaksch and Silvagni, who continue to kick lots of goals in the VFL. Be nice to bring Phillips in, given his form, but not sure if it helps us overall if it hurts Krezuer's game.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: BlueAvenger on June 12, 2016, 04:09:18 pm
Sack him, delist him, get the big name, we'll never be anything with .......... in the side. Need to go back to basics, like working as a team
Phillips plays today instead of yesterday and it's a different game. Sorry but cant see how Phillips would've been any better, hickey mashed us, and we werent defensive side of steven, gave them no respect and we was pantsed
Team looked flat, need more speed around the footy, no ruck. team looked $h1t, need more Murphy around the footy, no Gorringe
It's year 1. You're reasoning is unassailable it is year 1, thanks for pointing that out. I feel so much better knowing its year 1
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: cimm1979 on June 12, 2016, 04:13:33 pm
Phillips plays today and we get 4 goals closer, might not have won though. Their ruck knew he only had to put it to the advantage or outside and we couldn't touch them for speed.
Simple as that.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: BlueAvenger on June 12, 2016, 04:13:56 pm
At least the NB's had a big win, maybe some of those boys might come in and play like they actually give a crap
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: laj on June 12, 2016, 04:14:26 pm
Glass half full....6 wins from 8 matches. At the other end of the scale....gee we sucked today.
Still, we'll be defined right now by how we bounce back right now, especially with our pressure, not so much how we performed today.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: cimm1979 on June 12, 2016, 04:15:25 pm
Kreuzer is no good when he shares the ruck duties, stars when he does it on his own most of the day. Been the same for a long time. Ruck/rover type ruckman that needs to stay on the ball. Hence rather one ruckman so we can bring other type of players in, like Jaksch and Silvagni, who continue to kick lots of goals in the VFL. Be nice to bring Phillips in, given his form, but not sure if it helps us overall if it hurts Krezuer's game.
Sorry iaj.
Kruez was putrid today and needs help, but that help shouldn't be Gorringe.
Phillips BOG in the magoos yesterday.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: LoveNavy on June 12, 2016, 04:15:31 pm
Gorringe is not a ruckman. If we keep him in the side, he needs to play forward.
The problem though was that we looked exhausted. Didn't want to run, didn't want to pressure and our tackling was insipid. Their speed cut us up, Stevens had his own ball.
Krooz looked like a man who needed a rest.
Agree. We will benefit from the break.
I thought Crippa and Curnow soldiered on. Wright and Lamb our main threat pressuring forward. Actually i thought Lamb was great. Sumner needs a game to recalibrate post injury.
Some sound performances down back from AA Doc, 2e, Plowman.
Whilst I tipped us to win, I'm by no means disappointed. On the contrary I'm thrilled with our front half of the season.
Time to rest and regroup and recharge our "supporters" energy.
Go Blues
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: BlueAvenger on June 12, 2016, 04:15:31 pm
I think almost everyone gives a crap. I'm sure there will be changes and that's good.
I know mate, i'm angry. Cant help it though. Hot blooded Italians wear their heart on their sleeves, im no exception. I'm a sore loser
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Lods on June 12, 2016, 04:20:28 pm
I actually switched off "mentally" early on...kept it going on the TV in the background.
It was evident from the beginning that our pressure was just a bit off...and that's all it needs to be.... the intensity of the tackling and desperation just wasn't the same I realised at that stage that this was the "one-step backward" game and any judgements from it were probably not of great value.
Take note of the where we fell down... it's still a bit useful as a learning experience.... but put it behind us and move on quickly.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: cimm1979 on June 12, 2016, 04:24:00 pm
I know mate, i'm angry. Cant help it though. Hot blooded Italians wear their heart on their sleeves, im no exception. I'm a sore loser
All good.
I think I've been waiting for a reality game for a while. I actually thought it would be last week.
43 tackles today. That is seriously bad. There were still some positives, backline was pretty good.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: cookie2 on June 12, 2016, 04:27:13 pm
We lack a depth of very good to elite players. When our current few are missing or having that off day then we get exposed. When our best 22 is out there and firing we are competitive otherwise we can get blown out of the water as we did today. We are still short of those few more very very good players. SOS will no doubt be busy finding them, especially some more class for the midfield.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: laj on June 12, 2016, 04:27:47 pm
Kruez was putrid today and needs help, but that help shouldn't be Gorringe.
Phillips BOG in the magoos yesterday.
Problem is, as we have seen for years now, he no damn good, when he gets help but stars when he's on his own. Hence he starred against Collingwood and Port but sucked today and earlier in the year. It's something that has stood out for such a long time. Put Phillips in and Kreuzer will suck more often than not, as he did early in the year.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: cimm1979 on June 12, 2016, 04:33:44 pm
Problem is, as we have seen for years now, he no damn good, when he gets help but stars when he's on his own. Hence he starred against Collingwood and Port but sucked today and earlier in the year. It's something that has stood out for such a long time. Put Phillips in and Kreuzer will suck more often than not, as he did early in the year.
That's not true.
Phillips and Kruezer in their last two games together were far more effective than Krooz on his own.
When Phillips comes back you'll see it work again.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Mantis on June 12, 2016, 04:37:19 pm
Stewards will probably launch an enquiry into St Kilda's form Some punters may have won big time today. ::)
I actually switched off "mentally" early on...kept it going on the TV in the background.
It was evident from the beginning that our pressure was just a bit off...and that's all it needs to be.... the intensity of the tackling and desperation just wasn't the same I realised at that stage that this was the "one-step backward" game and any judgements from it were probably not of great value.
Take note of the where we fell down... it's still a bit useful as a learning experience...c. but put it behind us and move on quickly.
I totally agree. Our pressure, tackle rate and will to run hard and work hard wasn't there from the beginning and for the entire game. We can try to analyse many aspects, but we surely couldn't put a cr@p performance in like today very soon in the future. We need to bye as a rest to reset back to what we should be doing.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: laj on June 12, 2016, 04:44:46 pm
Phillips and Kruezer in their last two games together were far more effective than Krooz on his own. m When Phillips comes back you'll see it work again.
I'm talking the last few years when Kreuzer's shared the ruck duties, not 1 or 2 games. They we bloody awful together for the first 5 or 6 games. that's been obvious. It's stood out obviously. Kreuzer's effectiveness has been at his best against Collingwood and Port this year, when Casboult was his ruck partner in one and would've been in two except Casboult went down early against Port. Casboult played by far his best game too that day too. He's much better suited to a run on the ball. Helps him so much when he goes forward. Kreuzer/Casboult have been our best ruck combination for a few years, leave that in no doubt. Much better value with output around the ground. Stood out for years.
By picking 2 ruckmen means one rest at FF, that does us no good when we go into attack as they're both crap forwards as most rucks are, or you pick 2 ruckmen and 2 key forwards, which hurts our run. Rather pick one ruckman, Casboult as relief and pick a real key forward. Much better balance. Kreuzer plays better, Casboult plays better and we have an actual 2nd key forward.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Brettie on June 12, 2016, 04:48:09 pm
....I couldnt understand why Stevens was allowed to run onto Hickey taps with no one in front of him, just a clear path ahead?
Literally cost us the game......Saints opened their lead in the 2nd quarter as a direct result of this & we never looked like it after that. Curnow chose a bad week to play possibly his worst ever game. Our midfield put so much pressure on our defence.....just a really, really poor collective effort from that group.
That's twice in the past month our ruckmen have been smashed in the middle & we've had no Plan A, let alone a Plan B.....whereby the opposition midfield have simply walked past as if we were standing still in crucial centre clearances, giving their forwards an armchair ride, clearance after clearance......it's a definite issue for us.
Reckon a few of them showed up with fat heads.....a heavily depleted Saints team, a monster Carlton crowd (would've easily been a 70/30 split), just expected it to happen without trying too hard to make it happen......Saints had a crack from the get-go, got their tails up, a few things went right for them and away they went. The Saints were in a similar position to us today & that's how we've won a couple of our games, but today we were on the other end of one.
As others have said, if we're gonna have a 2nd ruckman, then it can't be Gorringe.......ever.
I know we're still developing & don't want to over-achieve too quickly as we continue to rebuild......but I much prefer losing to the contenders as expected, than this bloody mob.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: cimm1979 on June 12, 2016, 04:51:03 pm
I'm talking the last few years when Kreuzer's shared the ruck duties, not 1 or 2 games. They we bloody awful together for the first 5 or 6 games. that's been obvious. It's stood out obviously. Kreuzer's effectiveness has been at his best against Collingwood and Port this year, when Casboult was his ruck partner in one and would've been in two except Casboult went down early against Port. Casboult played by far his best game too that day too. He's much better suited to a run on the ball. Helps him so much when he goes forward. Kreuzer/Casboult have been our best ruck combination for a few years, leave that in no doubt. Much better value with output around the ground. Stood out for years.
By picking 2 ruckmen means one rest at FF, that does us no good when we go into attack as they're both crap forwards as most ruck are, or you pick 2 ruckmen and 2 key forwards, which hurts our run. Rather pick one ruckman, Casboult as relief and pick a real key forward. Much better balance. Kreuzer plays better, Casboult plays better and we have an actual 2nd key forward.
I don't agree.
I think Krooz is a so-so ruckman who needs quality support and Phillips will provide that.
They have done everything possible to make sure Levi goes nowhere near the ruck, even preferring Rowe sometimes.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: blue4life on June 12, 2016, 04:52:39 pm
Wouldnt totally blame Gorringe in the ruck...Kruezer wasnt great either and Hickey smashed us...I couldnt understand why Stevens was allowed to run onto Hickey taps with no one in front of him, just a clear path ahead.?
Not one of Kreuzer's best but Gorringe just isn't suited to playing in the ruck in my opinion, the only attribute he shares with true ruckmen is height. He's a nice kick and has fairly good hands, with time he could become a decent forward. Stevens is top class and he was roving to a winning ruck, it's no surprise that he got away from us.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: JonHenry on June 12, 2016, 05:03:11 pm
I think Krooz is a so-so ruckman who needs quality support and Phillips will provide that.
They have done everything possible to make sure Levi goes nowhere near the ruck, even preferring Rowe sometimes.
Agree, Kruezer is not tall enough for a guy that doesn't jump much. He also has little pace off the mark. Love him because he gives everything but not sure it's enough.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Lods on June 12, 2016, 05:07:53 pm
But when he gets going....another excellent chase today.
Injuries have played havoc with him...
Quote
The No.1 pick for 2007 was Kreuzer. His scores at the camp included a 14.2 beep test (10th) - astounding for a kid of his size - as well as 10.51 min 3km time trial (9th) and a 3.06sec 20m sprint. All those times are exceptional for a midfielder, let alone someone tall and 95kg.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: LygonStreetLimbo on June 12, 2016, 05:19:32 pm
Chaps....didn't follow the game today, but who was on Josh Bruce?... I see Bruce had no impact so must have been well towelled, by ???
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: laj on June 12, 2016, 05:32:14 pm
I think Krooz is a so-so ruckman who needs quality support and Phillips will provide that.
They have done everything possible to make sure Levi goes nowhere near the ruck, even preferring Rowe sometimes.
He's been alright on his own in the tap dept for years and on his own he is very good around the ground. Happily sacrifice a few tap outs for that. Casboult was rucking against Collingwood, had a great game, best ever for the club, and Port, although lasted 5 min in that. He hasn't rucked due to his injury but surely that's ok now. Balance is definitely way better with one ruck whoever it is. Like I said, opens a position for a different type of player rather than a slow ruckman who mightn't do much. Worst comes to it I'd sacrifice a little in the ruck anyway for better balance around the ground. Much more important to me. Do I want a ruckman resting in the goalsquare or another key forward. Easy answer.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: DJC on June 12, 2016, 05:33:45 pm
Wont hurt us I reckon. Got to expect a bit of that in our situation. Half a season into a 4-5 year rebuild.
Wont do any harm at all. It wasn't a real thrashing after all.
Yes, my thoughts too.
More for Bolton to work with :)
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: bignic on June 12, 2016, 05:41:41 pm
Bolton summed it all up in his presser. Overuse of the ball, tried to play too pretty and so on. He Knows exactly why we lost, but will never single out the bad ones. He said, the train has only just left the station, and we are where we expected to be.
The thing is and I said some of this in the in game thread. We still have a lot of deadwood that need to be cleared out. We need to have a good draft and trade well.
What I believe you will find, is that we will win games we are expected to lose and lose some we should win. That's what tends to happen with a team of our make up.
It's gunna take time.
but we are still entitled to have a go at them when they put in an insipid effort, 43 tackles says it all, like they did today.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: PaulP on June 12, 2016, 05:42:07 pm
Wont hurt us I reckon. Got to expect a bit of that in our situation. Half a season into a 4-5 year rebuild.
Wont do any harm at all. It wasn't a real thrashing after all.
Yes - there's not much point looking for this highlight or that low light. Clearly the heroics of the last few weeks have taken their toll- every player, to a man, looked stuffed.
The arrival of the bye is very timely.
Looking back over the last few weeks, I'd much rather a win over the Cats and a loss to these boys, rather than the other way round. At this stage, that's a real scalp.
EDIT : also, the Saints aren't really that bad, despite their outs. And spare a thought for Ed Curnow.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: BluePhantom on June 12, 2016, 05:50:17 pm
At least Sturt beat Port ;D
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: pinot on June 12, 2016, 05:54:52 pm
The team put in their worst performance of the year. everyone is entitled to put in a stinker but the bigger picture is I am delighted that perhaps some players will be phased out by end of year.
replacing graham with sumner in the middle was dumb. sumner is overrated a little and needs to stay in the forward line applying pressure, I do not rate him not ahead of graham as a two way mid anyway.
delighted at the prospect of phasing out everitt, walker, white for jaksch, silvagni and curnow
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Brettie on June 12, 2016, 05:55:28 pm
Looking back over the last few weeks, I'd much rather a win over the Cats and a loss to these boys, rather than the other way round. At this stage, that's a real scalp.
Nup - disagree......losing to the Saints totally cancels-out beating Geelong. Give me an honourable loss to a renowned gun team & then beat the teams around/below us everyday of the week (if I had the choice).
Nup - disagree......losing to the Saints totally cancels-out beating Geelong. Give me an honourable loss to a renowned gun team & then beat the teams around/below us everyday of the week (if I had the choice).
Why? He was arguably our worst/most ineffective player out there today.
Agree to disagree on the Cats / Saints.
It was Ed's 100th. Would've bee nice to get a win for him.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: PaulP on June 12, 2016, 06:06:24 pm
We wouldn't have won a game all year if we played the way we played today.
Wouldn't have beaten an u/15 girls' team.....
The Carlton of old returned - couple of wins our lads get ahead of themselves.
Bolton well outcoached too....they flooded, flooded and flooded - and nothing was done to counter it....
Players were rooted before they even got on the park.
No running to tackle - why ? Because they were stuffed
No running to create options when in possession - why ? Because they were stuffed
No running into F50 - why ? Because they were stuffed
No chasing players like Jack Steven - why ? Because they were stuffed
Defensive structure in the back half failing - why ? Because they were stuffed
I don't think they got big heads at all.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Baggers on June 12, 2016, 06:07:20 pm
I think the reality check was more for we supporters, the media and some of our players. Reckon BB and the coaching staff know exactly where we are at.
Some of our blokes in the first quarter thought they were movie stars and the overuse/finessing began... very undisciplined and some just weren't willing to work and hurt.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: cimm1979 on June 12, 2016, 06:09:56 pm
We wouldn't have won a game all year if we played the way we played today.
Wouldn't have beaten an u/15 girls' team.....
The Carlton of old returned - couple of wins our lads get ahead of themselves.
Bolton well outcoached too....they flooded, flooded and flooded - and nothing was done to counter it....
Awesome post flyboy - especially in regards to the flooding......Saints weren't trying to win the game early, just stop the damage, then we fell into the trap of messing around with the ball too much, gave them easy possession, they got themselves some easy goals as result, then the floodgates opened with the centre clearances. Yep, arguably Bolton's poorest performance thus far in the coaches box....
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Brettie on June 12, 2016, 06:22:04 pm
It was Ed's 100th. Would've bee nice to get a win for him.
Well - when your opponent played arguably his best ever game, I'd say Ed was one of the major reasons we lost.....
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: IvanAwfulbigone on June 12, 2016, 06:37:57 pm
Peeeoooowweeee what a stinker. If Bolton didn't put in a shocker then his staff let him down badly. Stevens cuts us up every time and more thought should have been put into stopping him. Saints worked Weitering over nicely leaving him in no-man's land numerous times. They got 3 goals in the last 3 minutes of the 1st q and that was pretty much the end of it as a contest.
I'm not really understanding the debate about Kruezer ruck partnerships but I do know that when we don't have our A-team in the centre the opposition extracts the ball with ridiculous ease.
I hate losing to losers.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: BluePhantom on June 12, 2016, 06:48:57 pm
Prepare for a pants down thrashing in a fortnight against GWS! >:(
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: crazyjoedevolamk11 on June 12, 2016, 07:31:12 pm
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: Rd 12: Pre game Prophecies: Carlton vs St. Kilda « on: June 04, 2016, 06:19:22 PM » I can see the Aints speedsters pulling our pants down next week :o
Told ya's....nah nah nah nah :P
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: MilkIt on June 12, 2016, 07:40:23 pm
That performance reeked of a team that was stuffed and playing for the bye. It started in the last half of last week.
The boys need to rest up because we have some tough games coming up.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: BluePhantom on June 12, 2016, 07:57:42 pm
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: Rd 12: Pre game Prophecies: Carlton vs St. Kilda « on: June 04, 2016, 06:19:22 PM » I can see the Aints speedsters pulling our pants down next week :o
Told ya's....nah nah nah nah :P
What do you want? A medal or a chest to hang it on? :o
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: PaulP on June 12, 2016, 08:40:20 pm
Well - when your opponent played arguably his best ever game, I'd say Ed was one of the major reasons we lost.....
I don't watch St Kilda enough to know whether or not it was his best game - Curnow's been in terrific form this season, but like most of his teammates. just couldn't get out of first gear tonight.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: crashlander on June 12, 2016, 09:33:49 pm
One of those games you have when you're a struggling side trying to improve. At least the boys kept at it until the bell but it's best to put that one behind us and look forward. Gorringe might make a forward one day but he won't be a ruckman.
I guess we can't complain too much. We've been 'up' for a while. But I was disappointed today. For the first time this year we were out-thought. St. Kilda were ready for our tricks and didn't let them work. Then they beat us where we are most vulnerable: in the centre square and in our forward line. They used our structural deficiencies against us very well.
Today we needed a proper 2nd ruckman, as Kreuzer was being beaten. We didn't have one. Gorringe couldn't do the job. Phillips was needed. He should be back in next time we play. We were thrashed in the middle: our structures didn't work today and St. Kilda got enough drive from the centre square. We can't do that against teams and hope to win. We could barely handle it last week against Brisbane.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 12, 2016, 09:34:30 pm
Coach didnt do any favours for Ed Curnow....Jack Steven was never the right opponent for him....took way too long to move Ed off him. In fact I thought Bolton had a poor day at the office along with his assistants especially the one responsible for our centre square work...Saints had the winning ruck yet our blokes were set up like we had the advantage..Steven just ran onto taps and outpaced our players. But thats footy and you have your off days and we probably went in complacent..didnt think we played well last week and we were probably ripe to be knocked over...
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Micky0 on June 13, 2016, 04:18:18 am
Not surprised by the loss, felt like we've gotten out of jail a few times and the boys looked spent the past few weeks.
Still am very happy with the year to date, they've exceeded my expectations in every way and I'm still proud of them (disclaimer - I haven't seen any of the Saints game!)
Refresh during the bye and have more growth in the second half of the year, that's all I ask.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: BlueAvenger on June 13, 2016, 07:10:55 am
There was only one real opponent that J Steven should've had, and that is Armfield.
After having some time to reflect it was plain for all and sundry to see, too cute with the footy.
Over-possessing the pill just allowed the saints to close up space defensively and smash us on the rebound.
Honestly i reckon Cripps goes 3rd man up too often, if its effective more often than not im all for it but its 50/50 at best and leaves us a man down on the ground around the stoppage.
Sharking Hickeys taps was a must, didn't happen
Weitering should've been our 7th man in defence, not on Membrey whom i rate highly. The Irish boys were the perfect match up for him.
Our team structure/defence fell down, which meant our backs were inundated.
Kreuze has lost the ability to jump over opponents which wasn't his strength anyway but he mistimes a lot of jumps. He's great around the ground but he struggled against Hickey yesterday
We looked really bad yesterday, got beaten by a bunch of no names apart from Steven and Membrey.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: IvanAwfulbigone on June 13, 2016, 07:56:09 am
Not surprised by the loss, felt like we've gotten out of jail a few times and the boys looked spent the past few weeks.
Still am very happy with the year to date, they've exceeded my expectations in every way and I'm still proud of them (disclaimer - I haven't seen any of the Saints game)
Be prepared to travel back in time - second to the ball all day, basic skill errors, crucial turnovers, smashed out the centre, no systematic forays into the forward line, ineffectual tackling, a seemingly half-hearted Gibbs ...
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: PaulP on June 13, 2016, 08:21:16 am
Saints were smarting after last week and came out determined to make a point. With us being as flat as we were, it was a perfect storm in a sense.
Those saying that Bolts was out coached may have a point. He looked a little sheepish in his presser, kept those flunky cliches to a minimum, and actually spoke about the game.
And teams will always over possess the footy when they have no options to pass to - and they have no options to pass to because nobody's running to create those options - and they're not running because....................you get the picture.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Robblues on June 13, 2016, 08:31:50 am
The first 10 mins of the game set the tone. As pointed out by others , we played the game in our back half. They flooded and we went into our shell because we couldnt go to our fast release game. They bottled us up and we went looking for the wrong way out. Wether were stuffed I am not sure off, I would think at this time of the year players would be still in good nick. We couldnt play on our terms which has won us games lately , it came as a shock and we were the deer in the head lights. Dont think coaches reacted quick enough to some situations, but maybe that was also designed to leave players there see there reactions , hard to tell. Lets move on , 6 months ago , we would all have taken the win/loss count we are at. It was part of the growth , one step back , hopefully 2 steps forward
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: pinot on June 13, 2016, 08:48:39 am
Its the best start we've had to the season for a few years - defeated Geelong , Collingwood and Essendon... Freo at Freo....I am happy with the game plan - really happy actually , now need to develop and play our 10 year + players.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game ________: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Jeffy38 on June 13, 2016, 09:01:01 am
Nup - disagree......losing to the Saints totally cancels-out beating Geelong. Give me an honourable loss to a renowned gun team & then beat the teams around/below us everyday of the week (if I had the choice).
Why? He was arguably our worst/most ineffective player out there today.
Put this one in the time capsule, possibly an alcohol induced post. I think one can only say that if their expectations are too high.
We have struggled to beat top teams for such a long time and the Geelong win shows us that the brand and method of football we play is capable of doing damage.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: IvanAwfulbigone on June 13, 2016, 09:05:45 am
Saints were smarting after last week and came out determined to make a point. With us being as flat as we were, it was a perfect storm in a sense.
It's also amazing how often a key 'out' (Reiwoldt) will advantage the impacted team by way of new opportunities and alternatives which make planning more problematic. Geelong didn't seem to miss Hawkins on Saturday. Agree it was the perfect storm. Still disappointed though.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: blue4life on June 13, 2016, 09:16:25 am
Its the best start we've had to the season for a few years - defeated Geelong , Collingwood and Essendon... Freo at Freo....I am happy with the game plan - really happy actually , now need to develop and play our 10 year + players.
Geelong and Port have been the only wins of note but I'll still take it because it's been a while since we could beat anyone half decent. We need to keep turning players over until we settle the side and this will take another couple of years, but the basics are there because our back 6 is above average. Tuohy, Docherty, Byrne and Simpson are as good as any group of running backs going around, Weitering will be a star and Plowman looks solid enough. A couple of forwards minimum is a must, and a hope that Charlie Curnow is one of them, another classy midfielder as well. The draft this year will be critical.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: flyboy77 on June 13, 2016, 09:48:26 am
Showed the need to bolster our midfield stocks!
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: shawny on June 13, 2016, 09:49:12 am
Was at the game and while disapointed i saw it coming. Always a danger when you play a team quicker then yours cause if you are not switched on and willing to work hard even a lesser side will cut you up. Remember the years under ratten one thing we had was pace and we knocked over many teams we shouldn't have by cutting them open if they were a little off.
Same happened yesterday.
Stevens and co were not checked anywhere near enough and they destroyed us as a result. Curnow/Cripps/Gibbs all wrong choices for Stevens. Had to go left field and try Armfield or even one of the Irish boys.
Bad coaching if we wanted to win but I'm confident Bolts would have made the switch but making a move to lesson his effort would have given the mids an out which maybe he didn't want to do.
The mids were not only outpaced but out worked on the spread. We underestimated what damage they could do if we didn't close them down. Hopefully lesson is learnt.
Time to bring some more kids in. I hear we had the 3rd oldest list this weekend. Time to get some games into more players that will be part of our future.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Baggers on June 13, 2016, 09:57:38 am
This is a critical time. It's like the culture of the past 15 years or more finally banged into BBs culture of, amongst many things, leadership density. For so long we've relied on our champs. Tiredness may have played a small part in yesterday but it seemed more about leadership laziness which could sure look like body tiredness.
I'm sure there is an amount of physical tiredness as this is probably the hardest our boys have had to train and work for many, many years (both mentally and physically) and it will take time to harden their bodies and ingrain a leadership response/thinking... it'll take time to create the 'Brutal Blues'... as yesterday and at times against Brisvegas there were periods of the old 'comfortable Carlton.'
Then there's simply the personnel issue...
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: PaulP on June 13, 2016, 10:17:04 am
This is effectively the same team that's been up for over a month. We beat the current flag favourites convincingly and had good wins over several other teams.
A couple of questionable match ups, a bit of inexperience in the coaches' box, and fatigue. That's it IMO.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: ianh on June 13, 2016, 10:25:56 am
I think the repeat games at Etihad is a big contributing factor. We were very lethargic and simply couldn't run with them. Poor coaching as well I must say, but more than anything we were a team longing for the bye to come ASAP.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Debster on June 13, 2016, 10:57:48 am
We played a man down with Walker on the ground. Bolts waited until 1/4 time to drag him (too late). Jogged around chasing the pack or lazily looking for a speccie in the goalsquare ..actually spoilt a Gorringe attempted mark which he had no right to. Unbelievable. The guy has no pace anymore and has lost his leap. If Silvagni can add 5kg of bulk/muscle to his frame surely he is a shoe-in for a leading forward role ?
Why did we play every slow short/stocky player on the list yesterday when St.Kilda had 2 tall forwards and 2 tall backmen out ? Richo must have been mightily relieved to see all our tall backup forwards playing at Box Hill on Saturday. Running us off our feet was always the plan for them...so why did we play our fatigued small & slowish forwards ?
Having Levi as a sole focal point in attack never works and needs sorting before next year. We need Harry, Jakcz & Silvagni in the team ASAP. Look for a specialist Membrey-like leading forward type in the draft as we can't play all the small forwards in the same team (Wright, Army, Lamb, Sumner). Playing our small forwards up on the wing was a recipe for disaster. No defensive angle to their game. We needed Byrne and Boekhurst..true wingmen and ball carriers.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: JonDorotich on June 13, 2016, 11:08:44 am
As others have said, Bolton and team were on the back foot from the start, with St Kilda's press impenetrable for the first 15 minutes or so. And then throughout the second quarter it became blindingly obvious that we needed a couple of targets down the line as it became very easy for St Kida's defenders to run Casboult under and away from the ball with some effective blocking - in hindsight, Everett or Gorringe should have provided a second target from the start of the game and we should have held our forward structure irrespective of St Kilda's full press.
Liked Plowman's and Docherty's games, but the game highlighted a number of issues to resolve for GWS (in addition to learning to deal with a press)
1.Kreuzer,s lack of impact at centre bounces and inability to mark 2.Tuohy's deteriorating awareness in traffic 3.Ciaran Byrne underutilised 4.Thomas continuing to chase cheap handball receives and offering meaningless 5 meter pass options 5.Everitt's and Gorringe's lack of intensity 6.lack of a target other than Casboult
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: blue4life on June 13, 2016, 11:16:23 am
I can't understand people pushing for Jaksch to be in the seniors. He's played lots of VFL games and the coaching staff and match committee have had a good look at him, yet this weekend we named young Silvagni ahead of him and Plowman has gone straight past him. I think we need to realise that it's unlikely that he'll measure up and that GWS got the better of the Jaksch/Whiley/Boekhorst deal. It happens, some trades work out and others don't, we did well trading out Menzel, Henderson and Yarran and exceptionally well trading Hampson for Docherty.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: crashlander on June 13, 2016, 11:21:07 am
There was only one real opponent that J Steven should've had, and that is Armfield.
After having some time to reflect it was plain for all and sundry to see, too cute with the footy.
Armfield would have been a good match-up, and could have hurt them the other way with his pace. Perhaps Kieran Byrne would have been another option, even though he probably hasn't spent time as a mid much: he has the pace and the tank. But yes, we were badly out-thought on this one.
Over-possessing the pill just allowed the saints to close up space defensively and smash us on the rebound.
They put a lot of pressure on us and forced us to go backwards in possession. It was awful to see the lack of attack. But the 'Aints had done their homework and started with a spare defender.
Honestly i reckon Cripps goes 3rd man up too often, if its effective more often than not im all for it but its 50/50 at best and leaves us a man down on the ground around the stoppage.
Both Cripps and Gibbs went up as 3rd man up and each time they were ready for it. Cripps got pinged twice for throwing the ball, while St. Kilda roved each one of Gibbs' efforts. They were ready for us.
Our present midfield structure doesn't allow for sharking taps that are seriously to advantage. Alas, most of Hickey's taps really were to their advantage. Sometimes only St Kilda players were in the section of ground where Hickey tapped the ball to. They got a HUGE advantage out of that: none of our players was in position to defend and keep the ball in. Hickey also rucked in a way that seemed to confuse our rucks. he often jumped up and out his hand on Kreuzer's shoulder to change direction in the air and keep him up. He was never penalized for it, so he continued it. It was very effective and hurt us in a number of ways. He even managed to interpose his body between the guy he tapped to and our mids at times. We did NOT do our homework there. Hopefully we can learn from it and beat him next time.
Weitering should've been our 7th man in defence, not on Membrey whom i rate highly. The Irish boys were the perfect match up for him.
Probably right. Weitering has the judgement to be in the right spot at the right time, but he struggled when St. Kilda just stuck the ball down Membrey's throat. Tuohy might have been a better match, or maybe even White, as he does usually make a LOT of body contact. Weitering lost a lot of confidence as the day went on: it was clear in his decision making and approach to his marks. It was the first time he was really towelled up and he will learn from it.
Our team structure/defence fell down, which meant our backs were inundated.
Yes. The ball moved down so quickly that nobody was in the position to support anyone else. It is the Achilles' Heel of the 'team defence' approach. On the other hand, we moved the ball poorly and picked out St. Kilda defenders.
Kreuze has lost the ability to jump over opponents which wasn't his strength anyway but he mistimes a lot of jumps. He's great around the ground but he struggled against Hickey yesterday.
He was butchered in the middle. Having only the single ruck option hurt us very badly. Gorringe wasn't up to the task and didn't really get an opportunity to show his wares elsewhere. Kreuzer also struggled in the air: he did not take a single mark for the day. Bolton was right a few weeks back when he said that Kreuzer was a barometer of the team. When he is competitive, we usually do well. We he isn't, we get badly beaten. He had a down day and we suffered.
We looked really bad yesterday, got beaten by a bunch of no names apart from Steven and Membrey.
No-names often seem to play well against us. I hate that. it usually means we haven't done enough homework.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: mina1 on June 13, 2016, 12:00:26 pm
after the brissie game curnow said we got smashed in the centre( so what happened bolts how did we rectify this. Again we showed wat a slow team we are against lions soon as they started to run in the second half they matched us.Saints exposed us with there run and spread as a team we are to slow. whiley and graham (slow) wouldnt helped yesterday u c our promblem.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 13, 2016, 12:41:23 pm
I can't understand people pushing for Jaksch to be in the seniors. He's played lots of VFL games and the coaching staff and match committee have had a good look at him, yet this weekend we named young Silvagni ahead of him and Plowman has gone straight past him. I think we need to realise that it's unlikely that he'll measure up and that GWS got the better of the Jaksch/Whiley/Boekhorst deal. It happens, some trades work out and others don't, we did well trading out Menzel, Henderson and Yarran and exceptionally well trading Hampson for Docherty.
Casboult as a sole target doesnt work...he gets triple teamed and then you have Everitt and Walker??..the latter cherry picked a couple of goals and Everitt kicked one in junk time and then tried to get his ratio up but refused to pass another one off that he missed....Both of them are unreliable and I see no future in either..... The play the ruckman as your 2nd KP player doesnt work either....Kruezer cant mark or kick and Gorringe is a novice at both forward and ruck work who is better around the ground in general play.
We need a proper structure not this bandaid crap we have at the minute... .
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: blue4life on June 13, 2016, 01:09:27 pm
We need a proper structure not this bandaid crap we have at the minute...
I agree completely but there's no point playing people who aren't up to it just for the sake of it, and Jaksch has had more than enough chances to earn a spot. Jones isn't the answer either, Everitt has good and bad days, Walker isn't the player he was and Casboult is marginal at best. We haven't had a true key forward since Fevola.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Amers on June 13, 2016, 01:10:41 pm
Didn't see the game yesterday, 1st game I have missed for the season.
It's always disappointing to lose to the Aints, I was worried about the number of games we had played at Etihad leading up to the game, but thought the number of outs through injury for the Aints might help get us over the line. It didn't. :(
Very happy to not have to play at Etihad for the rest of the year, now is our chance to play a few games on the "big stage' and see how well we go interstate.
6/6 is a lot better than most of us expected to be at this stage of the season, now to see what damage we can do in the 2nd half of the draw.
Go Blues !!
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: cookie2 on June 13, 2016, 01:37:54 pm
On the basis of what we have seen the past couple of games SOS will have to get really busy in the trading and drafting periods. We need to be getting some real talent on board, especially fwds and and mids.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 13, 2016, 01:57:49 pm
I have been away the long weekend so haven't seen any of the game nor do I want to as that's one that got away for mine. I hope that: 1. We didn't believe our own publicity and got all fat headed and ahead of ourselves. If it was the case, be interesting to see how BB handles this scenario. 2. We didn't under estimate the opposition. If it was the case, be interesting to see how BB handles this scenario. 3. That Richardson didn't unlock the key to beating our game plan for all to see. If it was the case, be interesting to see how BB handles this scenario (ie plan B, C etc). Anyway, put it away, freshen up over the break and try again rnd 14. Go Blues.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: shadesy on June 13, 2016, 02:01:02 pm
I expected to be 6-6, i thought we would drop 1 out of Brisbane and St Kilda. Saints were good yesterday, strangled our space and waited for us to inevitably turn it over. We had no flow and guys i think have been reading the Press to much.
I actually have no problems with this loss and got on with life fairly quickly.
I think we need some help in the middle. Our midfield is basically: Curnow, Cripps, Gibbs and Kerridge. Thomas as well. Sumner gives us little around teh contest, Lamb is raw (very pleased with him overall), Doc and Simmo to valuable down back. Not a lot in the Ressies either, with Graham, Whiley and Tutt, but would not be adverse in bringing those guys in.
This was the 6th time Jack Steven received the ball from the Centre Clearance... in the exact same spot... In the 3rd quarter alone. Re-Watch the 3rd and watch where he receives the ball everytime. No effort to have athe sweeper, to block his run, to come off the wing.... Clearance, Mark, Goal...Repeat.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: PaulP on June 13, 2016, 02:35:38 pm
This is what annoyed me the most: This was the 6th time Jack Steven received the ball from the Centre Clearance... in the exact same spot... In the 3rd quarter alone. Re-Watch the 3rd and watch where he receives the ball everytime. No effort to have athe sweeper, to block his run, to come off the wing.... Clearance, Mark, Goal...Repeat.
1. Fatigue 2. Ineptitude 3. Asleep at the wheel 4. Tanking
Take your pick.
Nice observation btw.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: shawny on June 13, 2016, 02:54:45 pm
Not much pleased me at the game but In the last quarter after saints kicked a goal Armfield copped a serve and a half from simmo on the back of the centre square as they were bringing the ball back to the centre. Never seen simmo so animated. Was yelling in his face and waving his arms around. Was obviously pissed with something Armfield did I guess. Armfield to his credit copped it and seemed to accept what was said.
Simmo is a more active and local game day captain then murph and personally I like it. He didn't have a great game but he leaves nothing out there and directs points and teaches better then anyone we have.
We lost poorly and years gone by I struggled to see any hurt on the players.
Not yesterday they hurt and they will learn heaps from that game.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: cookie2 on June 13, 2016, 03:03:25 pm
Don't know whether this was true or not but the commentary team spoke of the boys not following coaching instructions and that is why BB eventually went down to the bench, but that was very late in the game. May have been that they just couldn't due to having been run off their legs. Anyway, hopefully both coaching and playing lessons would have been learned and I look forward to seeing us again after the bye.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: shadesy on June 13, 2016, 03:20:47 pm
Sorry i Exagerrated..
4 Times Steven got a clean centre Clearance in the 3rd 1/4... all from the same spot...
And one More at the back of the Clearance (http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii609/shadesy8/Steven%205.jpg) (http://s1262.photobucket.com/user/shadesy8/media/Steven%205.jpg.html)
Our defenders had no chance to stop it...
RE Simmo
Understand the leadership role he has taken, but when Walker turned it over through the centre, he made no effort to get back, leaving Rowe and Doc to defend 3 on 2 and lead to easy Newnes goal. At the moment the fight was gone.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: IvanAwfulbigone on June 13, 2016, 04:16:03 pm
Don't know whether this was true or not but the commentary team spoke of the boys not following coaching instructions and that is why BB eventually went down to the bench, but that was very late in the game. May have been that they just couldn't due to having been run off their legs. Anyway, hopefully both coaching and playing lessons would have been learned and I look forward to seeing us again after the bye.
We play St Kilda again on August 7 at the G. Let's see what BB comes back with.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: cookie2 on June 13, 2016, 04:33:11 pm
On the basis of what we have seen the past couple of games SOS will have to get really busy in the trading and drafting periods. We need to be getting some real talent on board, especially fwds and and mids.
I'm absolutely sure this is the plan. They loaded on KPps as they take longer, I'm sure we'll draft/ trade for some young mids to help Cripps.
#needspeed
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: IvanAwfulbigone on June 13, 2016, 05:16:01 pm
I expected to be 6-6, i thought we would drop 1 out of Brisbane and St Kilda. Saints were good yesterday, strangled our space and waited for us to inevitably turn it over. We had no flow ...
This is what perplexed me the most - our patience in switching it until we could push through any zone or flood has been very good these last few months and suddenly it all seemed to fall in a heap for some reason.
I agree someone like Armfield should have run with Steven but he looked to be limping by half time anyway.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: LP on June 13, 2016, 05:27:21 pm
This is what perplexed me the most - our patience in switching it until we could push through any zone or flood has been very good these last few months and suddenly it all seemed to fall in a heap for some reason.
I agree someone like Armfield should have run with Steven but he looked to be limping by half time anyway.
Do you think we can make plans and implement them in the complete absence of countermeasures from the opposition?
Our wins are more about the coach than the playing list, a coach who builds plans based on his knowledge of the opponents.
Fans credit the players too much when we win, and blame the coach too much when we lose! But know this, our wins wont be so easy 2nd time around as clubs have seen what we do.
St Kilda was always a danger game because like us they are a club full of new faces and new plans that most opponents have not experienced yet. Our apparent lack of effectiveness against them was due to our coaching panels lack of exposure to St Kilda, we will be better next time.
Be happy that we have a coach who adjusts to the opponent and not a coach who copies out the default game plan like a Xerox machine!
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 13, 2016, 05:30:15 pm
I expected to be 6-6, i thought we would drop 1 out of Brisbane and St Kilda. Saints were good yesterday, strangled our space and waited for us to inevitably turn it over. We had no flow and guys i think have been reading the Press to much.
I actually have no problems with this loss and got on with life fairly quickly.
I think we need some help in the middle. Our midfield is basically: Curnow, Cripps, Gibbs and Kerridge. Thomas as well. Sumner gives us little around teh contest, Lamb is raw (very pleased with him overall), Doc and Simmo to valuable down back. Not a lot in the Ressies either, with Graham, Whiley and Tutt, but would not be adverse in bringing those guys in.
This was the 6th time Jack Steven received the ball from the Centre Clearance... in the exact same spot... In the 3rd quarter alone. Re-Watch the 3rd and watch where he receives the ball everytime. No effort to have athe sweeper, to block his run, to come off the wing.... Clearance, Mark, Goal...Repeat.
Said the same thing...we setup in the middle like we were winning the tapouts...Steven just ran onto Hickeys tapouts with no one in front of him...... I would have had Sumner on Steven..not Curnow ...was poor coaching and planning...
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Brettie on June 13, 2016, 06:21:21 pm
Said the same thing...we setup in the middle like we were winning the tapouts...Steven just ran onto Hickeys tapouts with no one in front of him...... I would have had Sumner on Steven..not Curnow ...was poor coaching and planning...
And we set up exactly the same way against the Kangaroos, when we pretty much had no ruckman.
As I said then & keep saying after yesterday, it's an issue the coaching group just can't seem to grasp or be able to develop a tactic to counter.......for mine, it's our one major flaw at the moment.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: DJC on June 13, 2016, 06:26:38 pm
And we set up exactly the same way against the Kangaroos, when we pretty much had no ruckman.
As I said then & keep saying after yesterday, it's an issue the coaching group just can't seem to grasp or be able to develop a tactic to counter.......for mine, it's our one major flaw at the moment.
I thought that it was a bit of a rookie mistake. In fact, I think Richardson gave Bolton a lesson in coaching. I expect that he will learn from it and boys will be working on a set up to counter a dominant opposition ruck.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: kruddler on June 13, 2016, 06:28:34 pm
I thought that it was a bit of a rookie mistake. In fact, I think Richardson gave Bolton a lesson in coaching. I expect that he will learn from it and boys will be working on a set up to counter a dominant opposition ruck.
You think they would've done that after Goldstein blitzed us a few weeks ago!
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: cookie2 on June 13, 2016, 06:31:12 pm
Kreuz obviously wasn't able to play the game expected of him IMO. We were caught out then since Gorringe is not a ruckman so we had no other options. Having Phillips there hopefully will make a positive difference.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: laj on June 13, 2016, 08:19:27 pm
I thought that it was a bit of a rookie mistake. In fact, I think Richardson gave Bolton a lesson in coaching. I expect that he will learn from it and boys will be working on a set up to counter a dominant opposition ruck.
Yes, you can win clearances against a losing ruck if you set up properly. Freo lost the clearances many, many times despite Sandliands dominate in the tapout dept.
It was just last week Hinkley said that you want either a winning or losing ruck. It's predictable and you can set up for it. It's anything in-between that's causes more problems, especially if you hope to win and you lose.
I wouldn't care if we lost the tapout dept every week if those ruckmen played great footy around the ground. To me alot more value. Like I said, you can set up to a losing ruck.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: cookie2 on June 13, 2016, 08:26:22 pm
Yes, you can win clearances against a losing ruck if you set up properly. Freo lost the clearances many, many times despite Sandliands dominate in the tapout dept.
It was just last week Hinkley said that you want either a winning or losing ruck. It's predictable and you can set up for it. It's anything in-between that's causes more problems, especially if you hope to win and you lose.
I wouldn't care if we lost the tapout dept every week if those ruckmen played great footy around the ground. To me alot more value. Like I said, you can set up to a losing ruck.
But we didn't do that either.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Jean-Claude on June 14, 2016, 02:10:30 am
Was not surprised at all after last week against Brisbane as we were just as bad then but the lions were just worse. Saints were geared up for this match all week while we looked like we already have one eye on the break.
We will hit rough patches as the honey moon period and hype fizzle out but the test will be to hang tough for the rest of the season.
Bolts got schooled a bit by Richardson in the coaching and tactics stakes but will learn from it. Doc stood up again even when the team was poor which was a great sign.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 14, 2016, 10:16:35 am
Bolts got schooled a bit by Richardson in the coaching and tactics stakes but will learn from it. Doc stood up again even when the team was poor which was a great sign.
The more I see of him, the more I think he will be our next Captain.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: cookie2 on June 14, 2016, 10:21:53 am
The more I see of him, the more I think he will be our next Captain.
That thought has also crossed my mind GTC.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: hotspur on June 14, 2016, 10:51:54 am
We were not good enough .We got smashed in the ,midfield,backline and forward .The side was much to slow and to predictable.Walker,Gorringe,Everitt,White and Armfield were poor to terrible.What a pity really the crowd was pro CARLTON ( at least 60%) but we had nothing cheer about.Bolton was outcoached ,first time this year.I am not devastated even though I really loathe the AINTS .6 wins before the break is way above my expectation.Chin up all it is not in the world
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Pratty on June 14, 2016, 12:38:21 pm
Effort was poor and reminded me of our 'bad old days'. Horrible to watch and extremely frustrating!
I'm concerned, yet again mind you, for Bryce Gibbs that he gets a hard tag and then becomes quite ineffective. Young Patrick Cripps seems to be able to really work hard inside and wok his way through.
Whilst our bottom end players have been giving effort of recent times, when they don't or our team as a collective if 'off', we get caught our with limited resources in the midfield and talent pool.
Kreuzer looked really lame and reckon he just was a tad off in movement and mind.
Phillips Id like back in, but am a little hesitant in leaving Gorringe out. Can we play them both with Kreuzer and Casboult, with Everitt and White out....or does that limit our flexibility?
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: PaulP on June 14, 2016, 01:00:27 pm
This probably belongs in a R14 pre game thread, but following on from Pratty, I'd say we need to go with as much pace, endurance and athleticism as we can muster.
Giants have become a tougher unit this season, but their bread and butter is pace, and incredibly slick, beautiful ball movement. We must be able to match them in at least one area, because we won't be matching them in much more I reckon.
As an aside, I have no idea where they will finish this season, but when they're on, they are beautiful to watch and just about unstoppable.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: JonDorotich on June 14, 2016, 08:35:23 pm
By far the worst thing about the game was that obnoxious line by line deconstruction of the saints theme song after every goal.......felt like throwing up
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: dodge on June 14, 2016, 10:59:28 pm
Watching on TV, so don't get to see play develop, it appeared that at least we didn't just get the ball and kick to to 1 on 3 or 4 in our forward half like we used to (apart from the first 10 minutes when the ball was exclusively in their forward line).
Disappointing, yes, but we haven't had a whole lot to complain about recently.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: cimm1979 on June 15, 2016, 12:11:29 am
Effort was poor and reminded me of our 'bad old days'. Horrible to watch and extremely frustrating!
I'm concerned, yet again mind you, for Bryce Gibbs that he gets a hard tag and then becomes quite ineffective. Young Patrick Cripps seems to be able to really work hard inside and wok his way through.
Whilst our bottom end players have been giving effort of recent times, when they don't or our team as a collective if 'off', we get caught our with limited resources in the midfield and talent pool.
Kreuzer looked really lame and reckon he just was a tad off in movement and mind.
Phillips Id like back in, but am a little hesitant in leaving Gorringe out. Can we play them both with Kreuzer and Casboult, with Everitt and White out....or does that limit our flexibility?
Gibbs had it 27 times in a midfield that GOT NO SERVICE from the ruckman.
He did fumble a bit and shanked a couple. Other than that he was far from our worst.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: DJC on June 15, 2016, 12:24:48 am
Gibbs had it 27 times in a midfield that GOT NO SERVICE from the ruckman.
He did fumble a bit and shanked a couple. Other than that he was far from our worst.
At times Gibbs tried too hard to create something out of nothing. For example, he attempted to centre the ball to Byrne and it resulted in a turnover. The kick was a little short but Byrne was bumped and that hindered his ability to get to the ball. It was a low percentage kick but someone like Docherty or Simpson would taken the mark. High risk, high reward but punishing when it doesn't come off.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Pratty on June 15, 2016, 12:30:58 pm
Gibbs had it 27 times in a midfield that GOT NO SERVICE from the ruckman.
He did fumble a bit and shanked a couple. Other than that he was far from our worst.
Yeah I know he touched it 27 times. Never said he was our worst.
His impact was low IMO. You cannot rely on the our ruckman for silver service each week. Gotta find other ways to impact games if you want to be called an A-grader permanently. I'd love for him to have a higher impact when getting tagged. That Geelong style game more than not.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: DJC on June 15, 2016, 02:45:35 pm
Gibbs spent too much time trying to knock Steven over. The coach may have instructed Gibbs and others to target Steven but it would have been more effective if they had smashed him when he had the ball.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: kruddler on June 15, 2016, 06:14:29 pm
By far the worst thing about the game was that obnoxious line by line deconstruction of the saints theme song after every goal.......felt like throwing up
That came through on both the radio and the tv as well. Very annoying.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 15, 2016, 08:50:36 pm
Gibbs spent too much time trying to knock Steven over. The coach may have instructed Gibbs and others to target Steven but it would have been more effective if they had smashed him when he had the ball.
Maybe the coach figured we couldnt catch him so slowing him up when he didnt have the ball was the way to go.....I'd prefer if a skilled player like Gibbs stuck to doing what he does best by being creative and leave the Steven Baker routine to less talented players...
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: BluePhantom on June 16, 2016, 09:31:28 am
Maybe the coach figured we couldnt catch him so slowing him up when he didnt have the ball was the way to go.....I'd prefer if a skilled player like Gibbs stuck to doing what he does best by being creative and leave the Steven Baker routine to less talented players...
I just like the fact that we are talking about this thuggery in our team. Finally we might have a little mongrel and unsociable football in us. >:(
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: DJC on June 16, 2016, 11:17:09 am
I just like the fact that we are talking about this thuggery in our team. Finally we might have a little mongrel and unsociable football in us. >:(
It is a very Hawthorn-like tactic to target one opposition player. While it's good to see us dishing it out rather than being the submissive recipients, I would prefer to see us going harder when the ball is in play rather than when it's in the umpire's hands.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: PaulP on June 16, 2016, 11:34:32 am
It is a very Hawthorn-like tactic to target one opposition player. While it's good to see us dishing it out rather than being the submissive recipients, I would prefer to see us going harder when the ball is in play rather than when it's in the umpire's hands.
The 3-peat era Lions were skilled practitioners of this tactic.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: cookie2 on June 16, 2016, 12:19:26 pm
Yeah I know he touched it 27 times. Never said he was our worst.
His impact was low IMO.
Fairly accurate assessment. Nothing new though - most of Gibbs' career has been too much as a low impact accumulator. The stats sheet has been his best friend, not to mention the fanboys coming up with ridiculous excuses for his shortcomings. Like, his game was affected because he spent too much time knocking Stevens over, when this happened only once and in the second half (of course, if anyone can come up with evidence that he spent the whole game doing this, I'm all ears). And his dinky little turnover kick - sideways to a contest that missed the target - was Byrne's fault, not Bryce's (he was, apparently, pushing the envelope).
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: DJC on June 16, 2016, 07:10:31 pm
Fairly accurate assessment. Nothing new though - most of Gibbs' career has been too much as a low impact accumulator. The stats sheet has been his best friend, not to mention the fanboys coming up with ridiculous excuses for his shortcomings. Like, his game was affected because he spent too much time knocking Stevens over, when this happened only once and in the second half (of course, if anyone can come up with evidence that he spent the whole game doing this, I'm all ears). And his dinky little turnover kick - sideways to a contest that missed the target - was Byrne's fault, not Bryce's (he was, apparently, pushing the envelope).
Fanboy?
No, just a supporter who watches games with an open mind and without an agenda. Everyone who pulls on a Carlton jumper gets my support first and foremost, and praise or criticism as deserved.
I also quite enjoy baiting Gibbs haters :)
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: BlueAvenger on June 17, 2016, 06:57:00 am
It was glaring for all to see our lack of leg speed against the aints. We desperately need an injection of pace and class in the Midfield at the end of the year.
Here's hoping guys like Buckley, Boekhorst and Cunningham can sort that out in the second half of the year.
Murph isn't slow either and it would nice to have him back in the midfield rotation as well.
Tutt has been averaging almost 30 touches a game and is super quick, Josh Fraser has been singing his praises. Can he finally transfer that VFL form into regular senior games. I'd like him to. At 25 he is still young enough to make a decent fist of it.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: flyboy77 on June 17, 2016, 08:03:18 am
All our guys looked very heavy legged ie slow last Sunday. Wondering whether training loads had been amped up - for whatever reason....?
And guys like 2E, Bryne, Lamb, Sumner aren't slow!
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 17, 2016, 08:31:24 am
Tutt has been averaging almost 30 touches a game and is super quick, Josh Fraser has been singing his praises. Can he finally transfer that VFL form into regular senior games. I'd like him to. At 25 he is still young enough to make a decent fist of it.
One thing that's been glaringly obvious this year to me is the "cans" and the "cannots" stick out like dogs proverbials. Those who get the new game plan have embraced it with confidence and have flourished. Those who don't have struggled and have banished or left to practice it in the 2's. Jamo for instance is the prime example where in the games he has played, he seemed lost at sea. Tutt may be going great guns in the 2's and if form warrants it and there is a spot, he should get a go in the 1's. Whether he is a "can" or a "cannot" will be seen very, very quickly. When executed well, we seem to be able to beat anyone, when not executed well, we cant beat an egg (e.g St Kilda with multiple outs). It is brutal and ruthless that's for sure. Go Blues.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: DJC on June 17, 2016, 10:28:31 am
Tutt has been averaging almost 30 touches a game and is super quick, Josh Fraser has been singing his praises. Can he finally transfer that VFL form into regular senior games. I'd like him to. At 25 he is still young enough to make a decent fist of it.
Tutt was fairly quiet in the first half against Box Hill but picked up in the second half. He seems more confident and the poor decision-making and skill errors have been eliminated from his game. The question is whether he can reproduce that at senior level.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: madbluboy on June 17, 2016, 10:36:06 am
Tutt hasn't nearly been as bad as people make out.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: LP on June 17, 2016, 01:28:39 pm
Tutt hasn't nearly been as bad as people make out.
He has one major problem, it's the same problem that saw Jones dropped, they take options on when to compete.
Jones was cemented in the side due to good efforts despite his lack of a result, it wasn't until he started choosing "not to go" a couple of times in his last game that saw him get it in the neck!
Tutt would be in the 1s by now if he can eliminate those times he chooses "Not to Go"!
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: madbluboy on June 17, 2016, 01:43:56 pm
He has one major problem, it's the same problem that saw Jones dropped, they take options on when to compete.
Jones was cemented in the side due to good efforts despite his lack of a result, it wasn't until he started choosing "not to go" a couple of times in his last game that saw him get it in the neck!
Tutt would be in the 1s by now if he can eliminate those times he chooses "Not to Go"!
I thought Jones was stiff to be dropped after the North game, we are actually undefeated when Casboult and Jones have both played. Having two big targets gives the opposition more to think about.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: DJC on June 17, 2016, 01:53:58 pm
He has one major problem, it's the same problem that saw Jones dropped, they take options on when to compete.
Jones was cemented in the side due to good efforts despite his lack of a result, it wasn't until he started choosing "not to go" a couple of times in his last game that saw him get it in the neck!
Tutt would be in the 1s by now if he can eliminate those times he chooses "Not to Go"!
I don't think Jones chooses not to go; it's more that he misreads the play and/or has no gas in his tank.
Same with Tutt but it's more lack of confidence in his case.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: LP on June 17, 2016, 02:25:26 pm
I thought Jones was stiff to be dropped after the North game, we are actually undefeated when Casboult and Jones have both played. Having two big targets gives the opposition more to think about.
I agree, but in that game he stopped in his tracks twice and watched play go on around him. Perhaps he was injured.
Bolton has made it clear that making an effort is not an option, not matter whether you are stuffed and cannot impact the contest, you must be seen to make the effort regardless of the circumstance. When I saw him stop twice I knew he'd get the bullet, coaches think that is unforgivable and it was the first time this season he reverted to his old ways.
He'll learn, and from the VFL reports he has learned, and he has the perfect coach teaching him.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: cookie2 on June 17, 2016, 03:21:15 pm
It'll be interesting to see if Jones gets a gig ahead of Jaksch. That would be a bad indicator for the latter - the clock is definitely ticking as far as he's concerned.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 17, 2016, 03:33:18 pm
Tutt panics in traffic, gives the ball up too easily and wont consistently attack the footy the way you have to at senior level.....he was a dumb pickup and needs delisting...
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: DJC on June 17, 2016, 04:38:43 pm
Tutt panics in traffic, gives the ball up too easily and wont consistently attack the footy the way you have to at senior level.....he was a dumb pickup and needs delisting...
Tutt looks like a different player in the NBs. My opinion was similar to yours EB but, if he can reproduce his NB form at AFL level, he will at least be putting pressure on several players.
Title: Re: Rd 12: Post Game Purgatory: Carlton vs St. Kilda
Post by: Professer E on June 17, 2016, 08:08:50 pm
You get time in the seconds that you don't get at senior level, plus mistakes get punished very quickly, every time.