Princes Park => Robert Heatley Stand => Topic started by: crashlander on April 27, 2018, 10:55:36 pm
Title: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: crashlander on April 27, 2018, 10:55:36 pm
We play Adelaide in Adelaide next Saturday night. Things do not bode well.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: deags on April 28, 2018, 09:00:47 am
Get the record books out. well, leave them out anyway.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: ianh on April 28, 2018, 09:02:25 am
Out of the country for this one and the next several all the way through to the bye - and I can only see Essendon as beatable in that run and that will depend on which Essendon turns up. This week could turn very ugly.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: madbluboy on April 28, 2018, 09:08:35 am
Out of the country for this one and the next several all the way through to the bye - and I can only see Essendon as beatable in that run and that will depend on which Essendon turns up. This week could turn very ugly.
I'll call it now, if we get pumped next week and have a bad loss to the Essendon Bolton is finished.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Jack Burton on April 28, 2018, 09:12:05 am
Disagree, Bolton will be coaching Round 23 this year
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: cookie2 on April 28, 2018, 09:18:08 am
The major problem afaic is that we don't seem to be able to execute the basic skills of the game to the necessary levels for AFL footy. Couple that with a propensity for taking poor options at critical times and where does that leave us? If you look at it from a 'teacher's' perspecfive, are we trying to teach Shakespeare to people with Grade Prep reading skills? I firmly believe that this is at the root of our problems. Not sure of how to address it, over to the coaching staff I guess.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Jack Burton on April 28, 2018, 09:27:16 am
Good analogy. As Clint Eastwood said, "a man's got to know his limitations". Some of our players don't
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: PaulP on April 28, 2018, 09:27:32 am
I'll call it now, if we get pumped next week and have a bad loss to the Essendon Bolton is finished.
So you reckon after R8 he could be sacked ?
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Lods on April 28, 2018, 09:48:21 am
Bolton's here for the year and probably the start of next year. In many respects his fortunes are tied to those that put him in charge and if he goes he won't be Robinson Crusoe.
The next few weeks could be very difficult but as often happens in these situations don't be surprised by the unexpected result.
Not sure it will be this week :(
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: deags on April 28, 2018, 10:19:59 am
As frustrated an p155ed off as I am, we need to keep the course. We need to have faith i the talent of these kids we have coming through, and believe that with 50 games, they will start shining. Just need to also have faith our coaches aren't fekking them up because the skill level at our club at present is atrocious.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: cookie2 on April 28, 2018, 10:51:33 am
This will certainly be a step into the cauldron and only the brave need to turn up!
However, based on last night I think we need to give Jack and O'Shea at least spells in the NBs. Others here will name more I guess. I don't think Kennedy is fully match fit to say the least - I have been very underwhelmed by him so far and there may be a case for him also to play NBs for a week or two. There are probably a number of other candidates I could name but I would be very concerned about who we have to bring in as replacements.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: LP on April 28, 2018, 10:58:09 am
This will certainly be a step into the cauldron and only the brave need to turn up!
However, based on last night I think we need to give Jack and O'Shea at least spells in the NBs. Others here will name more I guess. I don't think Kennedy is fully match fit to say the least - I have been very underwhelmed by him so far and there may be a case for him also to play NBs for a week or two. There are probably a number of other candidates I could name but I would be very concerned about who we have to bring in as replacements.
Long term I agree they need a spell, but I think they have to play next week, it'll be a defining moment for them and a tell for our club! They need a game that is clearly their last chance moment, to see if they have anything to offer, anything they can step up to! If they drop SoJ, O'Shea, SPS, Kennedy, Dow, McKay etc., etc., this week they are basically hiding them from scrutiny.
I'd bring Weitering in and drop Simmo, Plowman or Rowe, there is no point subjecting the old heads to scrutiny they have no further improvement to offer, they are known knowns. But we need to see what these "talented kids" can do against the best in a do or die moment! When the team was crap late last season we saw Weitering step up to be one of our better players.
Win or lose, if the kids look like they do not want to be out there, if they fail to lift or shrink under the pressure, it may be time to make a call!
I want to see the kids with a bit of Fisher type spirit!
btw., That "Other" option on the Next Captain thread, for me it's Fisher, if only he was a year or more further progressed! But Cripps and Docherty look like place-holders for Fisher long term!
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: madbluboy on April 28, 2018, 10:59:55 am
That's a big call mbb. And the coincidental fact that Micky Blue Eyes was also sacked after R8 isn't lost on me.
If that scenario does transpire (I seriously doubt it), then our next coach can plan a long vacation with atomic clock precision - R8, 2021.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 28, 2018, 11:20:54 am
re: Simpson... was tagged by Caleb Daniel, and has been tagged the previous two weeks, No Docherty means Simpson is under the pump from other teams each week. Coach seems oblivious to what other team are doing, we are losing to copycat tactics each week......Bontempelli should have been tagged heavily and wasnt, when he rested forward he needed a direct designated opponent like Marchbank not just left to the closest man..I saw the Bont just push Plowman out of the road like was a bit of paper and outmark him easily.....
I understand what MBB is saying about Bolton but I think we will see him survive this season...there is little in the coaching ranks to replace him and sacking him would also put SOS under pressure being the next head on the block and I dont see the prez doing that to his mate. I think the assistants might get chopped first and we might get my pet hate the " Director of Coaching" position reinstated first before we get to Bolton....
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: madbluboy on April 28, 2018, 11:26:44 am
Now we have broke our record every week the pressure will go up exponentially.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: LP on April 28, 2018, 11:28:12 am
re: Simpson... was tagged by Caleb Daniel, and has been tagged the previous two weeks, No Docherty means Simpson is under the pump from other teams each week.
Daniel out-bodied and defeated Simmo in two marking contests EB1, as much as we love him Simmo is cooked, it's over for him he's played one year too many!
BB complained about panicking at center forward, lacking composure entering F50. Simmo was one of the big offenders in the first half, no matter how much ball he gets or how many contests he makes we cannot afford the experienced heads to be cooking the footy!
The difference last night was that the Dogs had a core group from the 2016 that were the experienced heads, they worked in the hot zone to release the kids on the outside. Other than Daisy, with a little cameo from Wright, we had no experienced heads leading the way, some of the experienced heads were the worst offenders, and it was kids like Fisher working the hot zone to give off the ball to older heads that turned it over!
As much as I love them, from our more experienced types I thought Simmo, Ed, Rowe, Jones, Plowman had very very bad nights. It's a tell when Kerridge is one of the better players, that tells you the level the rest of the team is at!
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 28, 2018, 11:46:36 am
Daniel out-bodied and defeated Simmo in two marking contests EB1, as much as we love him Simmo is cooked, it's over for him he's played one year too many!
BB complained about panicking at center forward, lacking composure entering F50. Simmo was one of the big offenders in the first half, no matter how much ball he gets or how many contests he makes we cannot afford the experienced heads to be cooking the footy!
The difference last night was that the Dogs had a core group from the 2016 that were the experienced heads, they worked in the hot zone to release the kids on the outside. Other than Daisy, with a little cameo from Wright, we had no experienced heads leading the way, some of the experienced heads were the worst offenders, and it was kids like Fisher working the hot zone to give off the ball to older heads that turned it over!
As much as I love them, from our more experienced types I thought Simmo, Ed, Rowe, Jones, Plowman had very very bad nights. It's tell when Kerridge is one of the better players, that tells yo the level the rest of the team is at!
x2 Nothing to add....
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: LP on April 28, 2018, 11:51:53 am
I love Carlton, but we have a scatter gun approach at the moment, I'm not sure BB can be blamed for it though! I can't help but feel there is some back-room interference or politics going down, it feels like the bad old Carlton is throwing one last tantrum in resistance to change! It may be that the likes of Simmo have to be move on for the slate to be wiped clean!
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: shawny on April 28, 2018, 12:03:43 pm
Daniel out-bodied and defeated Simmo in two marking contests EB1, as much as we love him Simmo is cooked, it's over for him he's played one year too many!
BB complained about panicking at center forward, lacking composure entering F50. Simmo was one of the big offenders in the first half, no matter how much ball he gets or how many contests he makes we cannot afford the experienced heads to be cooking the footy!
The difference last night was that the Dogs had a core group from the 2016 that were the experienced heads, they worked in the hot zone to release the kids on the outside. Other than Daisy, with a little cameo from Wright, we had no experienced heads leading the way, some of the experienced heads were the worst offenders, and it was kids like Fisher working the hot zone to give off the ball to older heads that turned it over!
As much as I love them, from our more experienced types I thought Simmo, Ed, Rowe, Jones, Plowman had very very bad nights. It's a tell when Kerridge is one of the better players, that tells you the level the rest of the team is at!
A week really is a long time in footy for some :o.
Simmo is still probably the heartbeat of our club and still while in his twilight of his career continues to put his small body on the line time and time again for every young player to witness.
We are a team so short of real leaders and experience - makes no sense IMO to lose a player who rarely on our list, ticks all those boxes.
Scary to imagine what our team would be like at the moment, without the heart of the skinny No 6 out there directing and showing every kid that runs out beside him, what it means to wear the CFC jumper. Still a vitally important player for our list IMO even if he has a quiet game every so often.
I will be rapt when I agree his time has come but with such an inexperienced list and a team devoid of leaders now is not the time.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: LP on April 28, 2018, 12:07:55 pm
Scary to imagine what our team would be like at the moment, without the heart of the skinny No 6 out there directing and showing every kid that runs out beside him, what it means to wear the CFC jumper. Still a vitally important player for our list IMO even if he has a quiet game every so often.
The point is even his big numbers games are now built on poor choices and disposal, it's not his fault he whole career is built on being surrounded by ordinary ball use, poor decision making and panic. He was never a great ball user or decision maker, and things have not gotten better as he has aged. He's no longer finding his own space, he relies on others to free him up.
The longer he stays the longer our pain will persist, as much as we love him, we cannot let his game ways get into the heads of our kids. I think Simmo looks to be in the mindset that if he's dropped he'll pull the pin, if that happens it's a huge tell, the very opposite of Daisy!
One thing I liked last night was Levi having a crack, and having a crack at Daisy for the stupid outside boot passing attempt. That is exactly what Levi needs to bring to the game, some aggression, some leadership, some outrage!
I was a bit shocked to hear Wright say pre-game that Levi calls the F50 shots, maybe that is what he has always needed, I wonder how long it has been going on, I'd say only two or three weeks perhaps, based on observations of his game! If he keeps this up I would even accept him getting a contract extension.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 28, 2018, 02:40:58 pm
Daniel out-bodied and defeated Simmo in two marking contests EB1, as much as we love him Simmo is cooked, it's over for him he's played one year too many!
BB complained about panicking at center forward, lacking composure entering F50. Simmo was one of the big offenders in the first half, no matter how much ball he gets or how many contests he makes we cannot afford the experienced heads to be cooking the footy!
The difference last night was that the Dogs had a core group from the 2016 that were the experienced heads, they worked in the hot zone to release the kids on the outside. Other than Daisy, with a little cameo from Wright, we had no experienced heads leading the way, some of the experienced heads were the worst offenders, and it was kids like Fisher working the hot zone to give off the ball to older heads that turned it over!
As much as I love them, from our more experienced types I thought Simmo, Ed, Rowe, Jones, Plowman had very very bad nights. It's a tell when Kerridge is one of the better players, that tells you the level the rest of the team is at!
Sadly I think this true. He is becoming a liability in the backline with his poor disposal, turns it over more often than not. His endeavour, putting his body on the line and commitment remains elite, perhaps a fwd role would better suit him?
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Thryleon on April 28, 2018, 08:18:13 pm
Fwiw we can't afford to sack Bolton.
Which serious coach who wants an afl career would come to Carlton when you can get sacked in the circumstances Bolton is coaching in.
It's ridiculous. Had we not done all our trading already we'd have no hope of landing a new coach leaving us with only Barker as our option.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: cookie2 on April 28, 2018, 09:45:38 pm
Which serious coach who wants an afl career would come to Carlton when you can get sacked in the circumstances Bolton is coaching in.
It's ridiculous. Had we not done all our trading already we'd have no hope of landing a new coach leaving us with only Barker as our option.
Agree. BB is doing what he was hired to do - rebuild the team. He'll presumably be judged by the club as to his performance when the agreed rebuild time frame is completed, and sacked or retained based on that surely? He may have intermediate targets to meet, I don't know. Unless of course the club loses its nerve and pulls the pin early? Can't see that happening atm myself.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: LoveNavy on April 28, 2018, 09:51:43 pm
Tex may be sidelined. Went off tonight with suspected hamstring injury.
McKay also came off with a leg injury.
That said Sloane and Eddy may return to see our boys.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Rational_Expectations on April 28, 2018, 10:31:35 pm
Lang must come in.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: flyboy77 on April 28, 2018, 11:15:23 pm
So we push him up after one game with managed time on the field, he plays an ordinary game because he’s still trying to find the pace at VFL level let alone AFL, and we all start calling him a dud, spud, underdone, useless etc. Let him build up match fitness in the 2s to give him a chance to succeed.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: flyboy77 on April 29, 2018, 09:16:22 am
So we push him up after one game with managed time on the field, he plays an ordinary game because he’s still trying to find the pace at VFL level let alone AFL, and we all start calling him a dud, spud, underdone, useless etc. Let him build up match fitness in the 2s to give him a chance to succeed.
x200
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: cookie2 on April 29, 2018, 09:49:56 am
So we push him up after one game with managed time on the field, he plays an ordinary game because he’s still trying to find the pace at VFL level let alone AFL, and we all start calling him a dud, spud, underdone, useless etc. Let him build up match fitness in the 2s to give him a chance to succeed.
I don't think it would be a priority to rush Lang in although fully firing he would be valuable no doubt.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: ianh on April 29, 2018, 12:19:41 pm
Sadly I think this true. He is becoming a liability in the backline with his poor disposal, turns it over more often than not. His endeavour, putting his body on the line and commitment remains elite, perhaps a fwd role would better suit him?
It might well do, but that raises the question who replaces him in the back half. Whoever it is, short of a Docherty medical miracle, won't help the inexperienced oversized back line improve.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: blue4life on April 29, 2018, 06:36:05 pm
Weitering and Kreuzer should be good to go, logic says that Phillips and O'Shea will make way. No one really put their hand up in the VFL as far as I know so they would probably be the only changes, especially as Cunningham has copped an injury. I've got a feeling that we'll be beaten but not humiliated.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: rocky on April 29, 2018, 08:18:17 pm
Geez I can't believe with all the other spuds we have currently running around in the side Simmo's place is being questioned. F ME.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: cookie2 on April 29, 2018, 08:23:51 pm
Weitering and Kreuzer should be good to go, logic says that Phillips and O'Shea will make way. No one really put their hand up in the VFL as far as I know so they would probably be the only changes, especially as Cunningham has copped an injury. I've got a feeling that we'll be beaten but not humiliated.
I said it last week, and i'll say it again this week.
I'd keep reseting Kreuzer and playing Phillips.
No point rushing Kreuzer back....are we hoping for finals?? Phillips could very much be a long term #1 option if we develop him like we are attempting to do with the others. Now is the time to keep playing him.
Currently Phillips is superior in hitouts to advantage based on what i've seen. His leap is superior as well. His work around the ground could use some work, but his effort is not lacking.
Phillips is underrated IMO. Lets see what he's got. His leaping advantage could very much help us against Sauce Jacobs who will outdo Kreuzer in most ruck contests.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 29, 2018, 09:09:21 pm
Simmo won't be dropped IMO. He's part of the heart and soul of our club.
Yes Cookie, but you have to admit he is butchering it a little more than usual. I also realise its very hard to dump nearly 300 games of experience at this point in time so we must cut him a little slack I suppose. What else can we do?
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: cookie2 on April 29, 2018, 09:44:31 pm
Yes Cookie, but you have to admit he is butchering it a little more than usual. I also realise its very hard to dump nearly 300 games of experience at this point in time so we must cut him a little slack I suppose. What else can we do?
Yes he has made a few blues but his presence is very important to us atm GTC, along with Daisy, Ed, Sam Rowe and even Levi. The kids need them present for them for the time being imho as the mature influencers. That's more important than a few mistakes.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 29, 2018, 09:47:39 pm
Yes he has made a few blues but his presence is very important to us atm GTC, along with Daisy, Ed, Sam Rowe and even Levi. The kids need them present for them for the time being imho as the mature influencers. That's more important than a few mistakes.
Yep
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: LP on April 30, 2018, 12:32:52 am
Phillips is underrated IMO. Lets see what he's got. His leaping advantage could very much help us against Sauce Jacobs who will outdo Kreuzer in most ruck contests.
What evidence do you have to support that, are you sure history supports that claim?
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: LP on April 30, 2018, 03:09:39 pm
At the rate the Crows are accumulating injuries, cans and "tests" Gibbs could well be captaining against us! ;D
For all the naysayers Gibbs had here at Carlton, my Adelaide mate thinks he and Laird are probably 1st and 2nd in the Crow's B&F at the moment!
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: JonHenry on April 30, 2018, 03:20:54 pm
Is there a worse left foot kick in the comp? We all love his commitment but wow he can turn it over.
His foot skills have always been the difference between him being a good honest footballer and a top liner. Cripps and Charlie need to brush up as well.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 30, 2018, 04:04:07 pm
re: Simpsons kicking, cant kick as far as he did and as he tires it gets worse but as Cookie suggested he is a heart and soul player and he gives it all when he plays and its shame his last season will spent struggling for wins. Need to win the Essendon game for him, be nice to see him be BOG in a winning team vs those muppets....
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: JonHenry on April 30, 2018, 04:06:03 pm
re: Simpsons kicking, cant kick as far as he did and as he tires it gets worse but as Cookie suggested he is a heart and soul player and he gives it all when he plays and its shame his last season will spent struggling for wins. Need to win the Essendon game for him, be nice to see him be BOG in a winning team vs those muppets.... CHEATS
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: LP on April 30, 2018, 04:17:18 pm
There is no improvement from Simmo, Ed, Kerridge (Although???) but these two kids have to show something, was happy to see Cripps trying to kick it some more last weekend. That has to be step one of getting better at it, actually doing some of it!
Also liked Cripps becoming a bit more mobile at stoppages instead of just working inside all the time, for his size he is quite agile and once he's got momentum and space he deals with opponents quite easily. Handed out some Dusty style don't argues as well.
One might go with the other, mobility makes space, space makes kicking.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: cookie2 on April 30, 2018, 04:26:22 pm
Kennedy aint right still. Moving super slow and turning circle of a Mack truck! Not sure what they do there. He should have come back via the VFL IMO.
We are too tall IMO also.
Yes I've been disppointed, well very disappointed, so far by Kennedy. I was looking forward to getting him on the list but so far I am underwhelmed. He has had pretty good raps in the past so all we can do is wait until he is fully fit before pass judgement I guess. Meanwhile Cripps is still out there desperate for support.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: blue4life on April 30, 2018, 05:15:14 pm
There is no improvement from Simmo, Ed, Kerridge (Although???) but these two kids have to show something, was happy to see Cripps trying to kick it some more last weekend.
It's been an ongoing problem at Carlton for many years now, I can't think of another club where so many players with below par foot skills have played 100 plus games.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: LP on April 30, 2018, 05:26:09 pm
Need to win the Essendon game for him, be nice to see him be BOG in a winning team vs those muppets....
Well I hate them too, but it's a pipe dream!
Like Waitey running into that open F50 goal the weekend after his father passed, no-one else to blame!
There's no point Simmo shaking his head as he turns and jogs back, after he's cooked another kick! While you must accept I'm not a fan of our forwards either, no matter how well they play there is only so much they can do!
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: RiverRat on April 30, 2018, 05:42:45 pm
No point rushing Kreuzer back....are we hoping for finals?? Phillips could very much be a long term #1 option if we develop him like we are attempting to do with the others. Now is the time to keep playing him.
Currently Phillips is superior in hitouts to advantage based on what i've seen. His leap is superior as well. His work around the ground could use some work, but his effort is not lacking.
Phillips is underrated IMO. Lets see what he's got. His leaping advantage could very much help us against Sauce Jacobs who will outdo Kreuzer in most ruck contests.
If Kreuzer is ready to go, I'd play them both with Phillips taking the centre bounce and Kreuzer as a midfielder and the pair sharing around the ground duties.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: crashlander on April 30, 2018, 05:46:44 pm
It would be very hard to drop Phillips on his recent form. Playing 2 recognized rucks hasn't been that good lately, but ...
Who do we drop when the talls are showing promise? H? He was OK, though not brilliant. Casboult? He had a very solid game. Charlie? Over my dead body. Rowe? Not really in the thought patterns. Jack? Maybe, but he is more of a mid-sized forward.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: cimm1979 on April 30, 2018, 05:47:42 pm
If Kreuzer is ready to go, I'd play them both with Phillips taking the centre bounce and Kreuzer as a midfielder and the pair sharing around the ground duties.
That's probably what would happen if the world was fair because Phillips has done everything asked of him.
But ruckman generally float forward these days and right now we've got too many talls already. I didn't notice Phillips able to get into the forwardline much on the weekend and that was without Krooz.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: RiverRat on April 30, 2018, 05:47:48 pm
Kennedy aint right still. I certainly hope this is the case. Moving super slow and turning circle of a Mack truck! He has a turning circle?
He seems slow by hand and by foot as well as above the shoulders so I am fervently hoping there is an explanation for his lack of apparent mobility - if not, I can't help wondering why we were keen to get him.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: blue4life on April 30, 2018, 05:51:27 pm
I don't really rate Phillips to be honest, he's a plodder as far as I'm concerned. If Kreuzer is fit it would be crazy not to play him, it does the young blokes no good at all getting towelled up every week so we need to put as good a side as possible on the park and at least try and be competitive.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: RiverRat on April 30, 2018, 05:52:41 pm
It would be very hard to drop Phillips on his recent form. Playing 2 recognized rucks hasn't been that good lately, but ...
Who do we drop when the talls are showing promise? H? He was OK, though not brilliant. Casboult? He had a very solid game. Charlie? Over my dead body. Rowe? Not really in the thought patterns. Jack? Maybe, but he is more of a mid-sized forward.
Kreuzer is faster than Jack and generally better in every other aspect of playing football so, even though I don't think Kreuzer has ever been a realistic option as a forward, I would play him as a mid-sized half-forward in preference to Jack and keep Wright closer to goal where he is more likely to make an impact with his limited opportunities.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: RiverRat on April 30, 2018, 05:54:36 pm
He seems slow by hand and by foot as well as above the shoulders so I am fervently hoping there is an explanation for his lack of apparent mobility - if not, I can't help wondering why we were keen to get him.
He's clearly playing on one leg....
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: laj on April 30, 2018, 06:37:55 pm
I don't really rate Phillips to be honest, he's a plodder as far as I'm concerned. If Kreuzer is fit it would be crazy not to play him, it does the young blokes no good at all getting towelled up every week so we need to put as good a side as possible on the park and at least try and be competitive.
Phillips is a decent player to come on as a back up but that's all he is. Kreuzer is more the modern day ruckman. Rucks well then both mobile and hard at it around the ground picking up a good number of possessions. Phillips has done a good job but he's a back up means he's out when Kreuzer comes back. We're tall and slow as it is without picking two ruckmen.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: PaulP on April 30, 2018, 06:38:42 pm
If Kreuzer is ready to go, I'd play them both with Phillips taking the centre bounce and Kreuzer as a midfielder and the pair sharing around the ground duties.
Like.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: blue4life on April 30, 2018, 06:39:47 pm
He didn't impress me last year but his 2 games this season have been more than a little promising for now and the future.
I haven't seen anything to get excited about.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: laj on April 30, 2018, 06:41:55 pm
I want to see our backline shrink this week. We were looking to play more offensively this year yet we pick a side that has no run whatsoever off half back. We wonder why multiple players compete in a marking contest in defence with no-one down, well, they are just about all tall back there, it's what they do naturally. Need to pick a side that's relates to the modern game. What run, pick a side to give us some.
I'd think about trying someone like Lamb there and see how he goes. Pity Cunningham got injured.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: laj on April 30, 2018, 06:46:11 pm
If Kreuzer is ready to go, I'd play them both with Phillips taking the centre bounce and Kreuzer as a midfielder and the pair sharing around the ground duties.
Please not. Kreuzer is a ruckman and one that fits the modern game. We've seen previous weeks, especially last week, why do we want to get taller and slower. How much slower do we really want to get. We want speed in the midfield, not a ruckman there. We might like what Phillips has done but he's a back up. His possession count has only been 6 and 7 in his two weeks. Why play Phillips when you can ruck Kreuzer and play a proper midfielder.
I never value ruckman that much unless they are good around the ground and decent resting forward. Prefer that to tapouts by along way. Look at GWS v Brisbane last week. GWS rucked Patton and Tomlinson, lost the tapouts 47-4 but won the clearances 30-28. That value of tap ruckmen isn't that high these days. So i'll take a genuine midfielder rather than Phillips once Kreuzer is back.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: LoveNavy on April 30, 2018, 08:50:09 pm
Make our blokes get real jobs....it's all too soft and easy these days.
It's not as silly as it sounds, I know Barassi and Parkin both had similar ethos, not sure how Matthews stood on this but I won't be surprised to find similar. Parkin was adamant for the players to have something to keep them busy away from the football and to switch off!
You can tell Rowe works hard 24x7 as it shows on the field, while "Big H" is busy taking photo opportunities at a Lygon St pizza shop, that shows on the field as well! ;)
Might be a bloody good thing for Weitering, although I heard a rumor he was studying, but if he isn't he needs an outlet away from the club that gets his head clear of AFL.
It's no accident Jones form shift coincided with him studying at Vic Uni!
There is certainly such a thing as too much football!
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: PaulP on May 01, 2018, 11:26:33 am
I read that yesterday. One of those "what else is he going to say about his mates" type pieces.
Yes, I guess that's a fair point.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Tragic on May 01, 2018, 12:54:12 pm
all things being equal we're gonna get pantsed by the crows. badly.
at some point in the next 1 - 50 games something amazing is going to happen. a properly balanced and fit team will be selected, the boys will have a fair dinkum crack for 4 quarters, some of those shocking errors aren't going to happen, and blokes who have clearly shown the talent they possess at times will play closer to their ability. I just wish it wasn't the opposition every week! our time will come I hope...
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: BluePhantom on May 01, 2018, 01:01:47 pm
a properly balanced and fit team will be selected, the boys will have a fair dinkum crack for 4 quarters, some of those shocking errors aren't going to happen, and blokes who have clearly shown the talent they possess at times will play closer to their ability. I just wish it wasn't the opposition every week! our time will come I hope...
[/b]
This probably sums up every ones thoughts 'T for'. It's just unfortunate we have been thinking this for the last two decades! :o
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: laj on May 01, 2018, 01:22:10 pm
all things being equal we're gonna get pantsed by the crows. badly.
at some point in the next 1 - 50 games something amazing is going to happen. a properly balanced and fit team will be selected, the boys will have a fair dinkum crack for 4 quarters, some of those shocking errors aren't going to happen, and blokes who have clearly shown the talent they possess at times will play closer to their ability. I just wish it wasn't the opposition every week! our time will come I hope...
A properly balanced team is important these days. One of the strengths of Richmond is they get the ball into the F50 any which way they can, ugly or not, then press up hard to really pressure the opposition defence. They are also able to get ball the other way when the ball comes out. For that you need a properly balanced team with plenty of run and willingness to tackle and hold the ball forward. A tall, slow side will never be able to do that. Never set up attacks from half back with our tall defence to even start the process as we have no run. We get the ball into the F50 alot, ugly or otherwise, mostly ugly, no issue there, but we can't get there in numbers quick enough to put any pressure on the opposition defence given our structure.
We seem to have no concept of how to structure up and play the modern game.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: PaulP on May 01, 2018, 02:08:05 pm
Boy, you have to feel sorry for Bolts - not yet 40 years old, and that dinosaur brain of his refuses to dig the new breed - is it possible the game has passed him by ?
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: jeza on May 01, 2018, 02:57:10 pm
A properly balanced team is important these days. One of the strengths of Richmond is they get the ball into the F50 any which way they can, ugly or not, then press up hard to really pressure the opposition defence. They are also able to get ball the other way when the ball comes out. For that you need a properly balanced team with plenty of run and willingness to tackle and hold the ball forward. A tall, slow side will never be able to do that. Never set up attacks from half back with our tall defence to even start the process as we have no run. We get the ball into the F50 alot, ugly or otherwise, mostly ugly, no issue there, but we can't get there in numbers quick enough to put any pressure on the opposition defence given our structure.
We seem to have no concept of how to structure up and play the modern game.
Every club tries to do the same thing as Richmond. But if you look at their team they've got a lot of fast guys who can run all day. They tend to get teams from half way through the 3rd quarter onwards.
In my opinion - Richmond's success is only partially down to their intense pressure style of play. What is more important is their ability to keep doing it after they've exhausted their opponents and then they turn what was a tight game into a 4-8 goal win.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: LP on May 01, 2018, 03:01:01 pm
Every club tries to do the same thing as Richmond. But if you look at their team they've got a lot of fast guys who can run all day. They tend to get teams from half way through the 3rd quarter onwards.
In my opinion - Richmond's success is only partially down to their intense pressure style of play. What is more important is their ability to keep doing it after they've exhausted their opponents and then they turn what was a tight game into a 4-8 goal win.
I think clubs that are stupid enough to copy are consigning themselves to mid-table mediocrity. Simply because by the time they get the duplication in place and locked down half the remaining teams have either advanced in tactics or found an effective countermeasure.
If you want to rise, you must innovate, and you must play to your own strengths! The best coaches are coaches that get the best out of what they have got. I think the key to Dimma's success has been to get out of the way and let the players play football, in my opinion Dimma was their speed hump, he was over thinking and over coaching! Even so they have been lucky on the injury front, even now they are still relatively injury free.
For me, it's the biggest argument against kids learning by tagging, you are basically just teaching them something another club already knows.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: jeza on May 01, 2018, 03:04:04 pm
For us with regards to recent recruiting - SPS doesn't seem like an endurance beast but he does have some good tackling / pressure capability when he's on song.
Dow / Charlie / LOB / Kennedy / Lang / Fisher all seem like endurance is right up there. But we are still light on for young midfield runners I think if we're to match the Richmonds.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: jeza on May 01, 2018, 03:07:48 pm
I think clubs that are stupid enough to copy are consigning themselves to mid-table mediocrity. Simply because by the time they get the duplication in place and locked down half the remaining teams have either advanced in tactics or found an effective countermeasure.
If you want to rise, you must innovate!
For me, it's the biggest argument against kids learning by tagging, you are basically just teaching them something another club already knows.
I don't think anyone is directly copying Richmond. If they were they'd be running a Grigg in the ruck and only have 1 key forward.
I was talking about forward pressure which is not a Richmond invented tactic. It's just that they're doing it better than anyone else at the minute - though everyone will be trying to match them.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: blue4life on May 01, 2018, 05:55:45 pm
I'd give it another few years before I declared Richmond as the modern day trendsetter. As of now they've won one Premiership after a dream run with injury, I saw them play Collingwood the other day and they aren't anything to get excited about in my opinion. Footscray's flag was much more impressive given their injuries to key players and winning finals on the road against all the odds, but two years down the track and they battled to beat a depleted Carlton. Richmond could win it again given that their injury count is still low and that there isn't any real standout team, but they could just as easily not make the grand final.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: PaulP on May 01, 2018, 06:39:42 pm
I'd give it another few years before I declared Richmond as the modern day trendsetter. As of now they've won one Premiership after a dream run with injury, I saw them play Collingwood the other day and they aren't anything to get excited about in my opinion. Footscray's flag was much more impressive given their injuries to key players and winning finals on the road against all the odds, but two years down the track and they battled to beat a depleted Carlton. Richmond could win it again given that their injury count is still low and that there isn't any real standout team, but they could just as easily not make the grand final.
Richmond are a textbook example of a champion team as opposed to a team of champions. Looking at their list, you think they're average, but when they play together, the whole is much greater than the sum of their parts. They beat the Pies by 7 goals plus change.
If this is a team that isn't anything to get excited about, I hope our team also fails to excite you, very very soon.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 01, 2018, 06:48:54 pm
Richmond are a textbook example of a champion team as opposed to a team of champions. Looking at their list, you think they're average, but when they play together, the whole is much greater than the sum of their parts. They beat the Pies by 7 goals plus change.
If this is a team that isn't anything to get excited about, I hope our team also fails to excite you, very very soon.
x2.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: kruddler on May 01, 2018, 06:52:39 pm
It's not as silly as it sounds, I know Barassi and Parkin both had similar ethos, not sure how Matthews stood on this but I won't be surprised to find similar. Parkin was adamant for the players to have something to keep them busy away from the football and to switch off!
You can tell Rowe works hard 24x7 as it shows on the field, while "Big H" is busy taking photo opportunities at a Lygon St pizza shop, that shows on the field as well! ;)
Might be a bloody good thing for Weitering, although I heard a rumor he was studying, but if he isn't he needs an outlet away from the club that gets his head clear of AFL.
It's no accident Jones form shift coincided with him studying at Vic Uni!
There is certainly such a thing as too much football!
Pretty sure everyone at the club has been studying at some point. It was almost a requirement the club had a decade or so ago. Forces players to focus on something else.
It might take players 8 years to do a 3 year course at the rate they do it though.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: blue4life on May 01, 2018, 06:52:43 pm
Richmond are a textbook example of a champion team as opposed to a team of champions. Looking at their list, you think they're average, but when they play together, the whole is much greater than the sum of their parts.
You could say the same and more about Footscray 2016 and Sydney 2012, and Collingwood 2010 wasn't a stellar team talent wise but they finished on top with a percentage of 141. I'm not selling Richmond short, but I don't think that they're in the same class as the great Hawthorn, Geelong and Brisbane sides of the past two decades. It all comes down to recruiting, if you can get all of your ducks in a row on that score the sky's the limit.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: PaulP on May 01, 2018, 07:00:21 pm
You could say the same and more about Footscray 2016 and Sydney 2012, and Collingwood 2010 wasn't a stellar team talent wise but they finished on top with a percentage of 141. I'm not selling Richmond short, but I don't think that they're in the same class as the great Hawthorn, Geelong and Brisbane sides of the past two decades. It all comes down to recruiting, if you can get all of your ducks in a row on that score the sky's the limit.
At this point, you're probably right re the bolded bit, but they're still very very good, and if we can emulate them I for one will be stoked.
Their list has seen minimal changes compared to us over the last few years, and this, combined with minimal injuries, is IMO exactly what Bolton talks about when he refers to building synergy. And if that's what building synergy looks like, then I like it. I like a whole lot.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: kruddler on May 01, 2018, 07:24:22 pm
Kruddler, you made very sweeping stupid statement, and spent a lot of time formulating an elaborate cherry picked but extremely thin defence of it! ;D And Tippett and Jenkins, in a game we played Kreuzer as a forward and had Hampson 1st ruck? R10 was Kreuzer's first game back from injury after missing the start of 2015. Yes, 2016, the season Kreuzer played on after injuring his knee about mid-season So even when he plays well unhindered by injury you talk him down to prove your point.
A match report for the Crows read; Sam Jacobs;- Would want to rebound strongly next week as Matthew Kreuzer won the big man contest easily.
So reading into that, what you are telling me is that when Kreuzer gets beaten by sauce this week, you will say "Oh its because it was his first game back from injury and thats why he was beaten by sauce"
If he is good enough, he is good enough. He simply doesn't match up on sauce well who outdoes him around the ground and in front of goals.
No harm in that, sauce is an awesome ruck. Just saying, give Phillips the job and rest kreuzer until he is fully fit.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: madbluboy on May 02, 2018, 09:23:01 am
Yep. Bring Kreuzer back for the Bombers!
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: flyboy77 on May 02, 2018, 09:43:47 am
So reading into that, what you are telling me is that when Kreuzer gets beaten by sauce this week, you will say "Oh its because it was his first game back from injury and thats why he was beaten by sauce"
If he is good enough, he is good enough. He simply doesn't match up on sauce well who outdoes him around the ground and in front of goals.
No harm in that, sauce is an awesome ruck. Just saying, give Phillips the job and rest kreuzer until he is fully fit.
Kreuzer is injured again no doubt about that, when fit he is a far better ruck option than Jacobs. Despite Jacobs accumulating large numbers of hit-outs occasionally nobody has ever seriously considers him for an AA spot, while some (even non-Carlton commentators) believe Kreuzer has been robbed of a spot, there is a reason for that! ;)
The idea that Jacobs dominates Carlton is unsupported by the match reports and the stats, he's had very few good games against us, on average we have him covered. Statistically looking at Jacobs top 51 games against all opposition Carlton only features twice, at 14th and 51st. On averages against Carlton he's middle of the field, head to head Kreuzer has been better for Carlton against Adelaide than Jacobs has been for the Crows against us. That is reality, nothing subjective to opinionated about it!
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: kruddler on May 02, 2018, 10:09:10 am
Kreuzer is injured again no doubt about that, when fit he is a far better ruck option than Jacobs. Despite Jacobs accumulating large numbers of hit-outs occasionally nobody has ever seriously considers him for an AA spot, while some (even non-Carlton commentators) believe Kreuzer has been robbed of a spot, there is a reason for that! ;)
The idea that Jacobs dominates Carlton is unsupported by the match reports and the stats, he's had very few good games against us, on average we have him covered. Statistically looking at Jacobs top 51 games against all opposition Carlton only features twice, at 14th and 51st. On averages against Carlton he's middle of the field, head to head Kreuzer has been better for Carlton against Adelaide than Jacobs has been for the Crows against us. That is reality, nothing subjective to opinionated about it!
That is 100% subjective and even the 'stats' you indirectly talk about doesn't actually back up your argument.
That is like saying Tony Locketts best game of AFL football were not against Carlton when he was at St. Kilda. And Luke O'Sullivans best games were against St. Kilda....so Rhino is better than Plugger. That logic makes no correlation to their base performances. Loosely summarised, Plugger averaged 5 goals a game. Rhino, 5 games a year.
There is simply so much wrong with what you right, that i'm simply going to agree to disagree.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Lods on May 02, 2018, 10:14:37 am
That is 100% subjective and even the 'stats' you indirectly talk about doesn't actually back up your argument.
That is like saying Tony Locketts best game of AFL football were not against Carlton when he was at St. Kilda. And Luke O'Sullivans best games were against St. Kilda....so Rhino is better than Plugger. That logic makes no correlation to their base performances. Loosely summarised, Plugger averaged 5 goals a game. Rhino, 5 games a year.
There is simply so much wrong with what you right, that i'm simply going to agree to disagree.
Ignoring the Freudian slip, you are not getting out of this by reverting to your usual absurdities, you have made a rubbish statement.
Here is a Final Siren Head to Head (http://finalsiren.com/PlayerCompare.asp?SeasonID=&SelectedPlayers=1822,1886,&Compare=Go), the relevant section shows reality about any claims of Jacobs domination against Carlton.
I suspect like many fans, your rage at losing Jacobs has coloured your perception of his performances!
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: kruddler on May 02, 2018, 10:29:38 am
Ignoring the Freudian slip, you are not getting out of this by reverting to your usual absurdities, you have made a rubbish statement.
Here is a Final Siren Head to Head (http://finalsiren.com/PlayerCompare.asp?SeasonID=&SelectedPlayers=1822,1886,&Compare=Go), the relevant section shows reality about any claims of Jacobs domination against Carlton.
I suspect like many fans, your rage at losing Jacobs has coloured your perception of his performances!
I have no rage at losing Jacobs. It was a necessary at the time, and in hindsight we chose wrong.
To point out, 1 more time, how wrong you are with what you write, i will do nothing other than pointing out the fact your link shows them playing against eachother 16 times. Sauce has only played against Carlton 7 times in his career...and Kreuzer was, yep injured, for 3 of those.
I posted stats, you post gobbledy gook.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: madbluboy on May 02, 2018, 10:41:16 am
Just seems to me that the good teams just recruit mature ruckmen who are ready to go.
But how do clubs get to that point & who do they use in the meantime ?
Hawks (before premierships) were making do with the likes of Simon Taylor, & Brett Renouf (once successful they brought in David Hale....& did very well out of him) Cats had a long term ruck (King) who they'd had for years before they became a force (which is similar to us with Kruezer). Collingwood bought in Jolly from Swans when they were looking like they were a chance, before 2010 they were using Wood & Leigh Brown ! Swans, luckily had Mumford as well.....they've done well with rucks over the years, they have.....ironically, so have Melbourne somehow ????
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: LP on May 02, 2018, 11:45:28 am
Just seems to me that the good teams just recruit mature ruckmen who are ready to go.
Who are the AFLs current top ruckmen, and how were they drafted?
I would think more than half the current 2018 top rated 1st rucks were Rnd 1 or 2 draft picks by the club they play for, also a good percentage of them still play for the club they were drafted for.
Of those who have moved, a couple are the case were they left because they were not better than the existing first ruck option.
Subjectively, it seems the hit rate for success on picking a ruck early in the draft is no better or worse than any other player, but I appreciate the time-frame for a return on that pick can be significant given that rucks typically peak in their late 20s. The issue of No.1 versus other early picks is more about what individual clubs need at the time, not who is necessarily the very best player, and even so it's still a coin toss if any individual pick will be a success!
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: malo on May 02, 2018, 11:51:47 am
Who was the last consistent performing match winning number 1 pick from any club? Most of the really good players come later in the draft.
The number one pick is a dangerous thing to have....it basically means you have to pick on the safe side......you just can't afford to gamble on someone else who might have a bigger upside....but is not a guaranteed 200 game player.......and this is the very reason that it is a false economy for the bottom placed sides.
You're absolutely right BluePhantom, there haven't been many elite gun players picked at #1 have there.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: blue4life on May 02, 2018, 11:56:06 am
Who was the last consistent performing match winning number 1 pick from any club? Most of the really good players come later in the draft.
Hodge and Riewoldt probably, and maybe Patton, most of the rest have been very good players but not match winners. If you stack them all up over the last 25 years Murphy, Gibbs and Kreuzer more than hold their own.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: deags on May 02, 2018, 11:58:58 am
I agree. And I would think if Kreuzer had stayed fit, we'd be having a whole different discussion about picking a ruck at number one, and there'd be a whole lot less hype about the overrated bloke from WC.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: LP on May 02, 2018, 12:02:37 pm
You want it to be, but the only non-subjective measure we have is when they played in the same games with or against each other. Everything else you write is opinion!
It's the accepted way to measure sporting talent, the very same way many sports establish the best of the best, by examining their results either side by side or head to head.
If I looked at Jacobs versus all teams, Carlton is middle of the field.
Sam Jacobs Against Opposition Teams (http://www.finalsiren.com/PlayerStats.asp?PlayerID=1886#opp)
Hardly dominant!
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: LP on May 02, 2018, 12:14:18 pm
I agree. And I would think if Kreuzer had stayed fit, we'd be having a whole different discussion about picking a ruck at number one, and there'd be a whole lot less hype about the overrated bloke from WC.
Kreuzer has only just reached the peak age for a ruckmen, and he was probably looking like one of our better players this season prior to his injury, that even includes Charlie's half game extravagances or Cripps high contested possession games.
As much rhetoric as fans like to post, I suspect the team would kill for a fit and in form Kreuzer out on the park with the rest of them! It clear to see how much weight he carries regarding the teams fortunes.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: deags on May 02, 2018, 12:18:20 pm
He is like the armoured division that everyone lines up behind. Him and Cripps on ball if both fit and firing will be devastating.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: LP on May 02, 2018, 12:38:27 pm
He is like the armoured division that everyone lines up behind. Him and Cripps on ball if both fit and firing will be devastating.
There is some irony in people labeling his pick a waste, historically in addition to rucking many suggested they wanted Kreuzer to be the winning KPF, the Cripps like midfielder(Even before Cripps joined Carlton it was SpecialK that was proposed as a Judd chop-out type), some have asked for him to play KPD when we were light on for gorilla type defenders, and we've seen him rove inside the F50 like we one day hope/want to see from McKay!
Not too bad for an alleged wasted pick, what more can he do?
Without naming names, I get the feeling that if some of the forum posters were put in charge of a council road crew, the first thing they would do is sack the person digging for failing to do everything! :o
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: laj on May 02, 2018, 12:59:43 pm
Even with Kreuzer in career best form, Jacobs was able to hit the scoreboard more, together with the respective backups.
So basically Jacobs has been able to outdo the work of 2 of our ruckmen himself in most instances.
I'll leave the argument to you guys but what I did notice that Kreuzer played his best game of those 4 when he was essentially the lone ruck. Kreuzer has very often been $hithouse when he has to share ruck duties but as lone luck with relief from Casboult he is a far better player. Goes from $hit to star.
That last game must've had a few stoppages, 50 hitouts to 40.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: kruddler on May 02, 2018, 01:03:51 pm
You want it to be, but the only non-subjective measure we have is when they played in the same games with or against each other. Everything else you write is opinion!
It's the accepted way to measure sporting talent, the very same way many sports establish the best of the best, by examining their results either side by side or head to head.
If I looked at Jacobs versus all teams, Carlton is middle of the field.
Sam Jacobs Against Opposition Teams (http://www.finalsiren.com/PlayerStats.asp?PlayerID=1886#opp)
Hardly dominant!
You seem to be forgetting the stats i wrote were exactly that! If you don't trust the stats, see who has more brownlow votes in head to head. Sauce 2-0.
I don't care who is the better ruckman against other teams. Its not about that! Its about head to head and their matchup this week. Nothing else matters. We can have the same discussion every week with Kreuzer vs ***** and it will be different.
You keep trying totwist the argument into something it is not as deflection.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: kruddler on May 02, 2018, 01:05:27 pm
I'll leave the argument to you guys but what I did notice that Kreuzer played his best game of those 4 when he was essentially the lone ruck. Kreuzer has very often been $hithouse when he has to share ruck duties but as lone luck with relief from Casboult he is a far better player. Goes from $hit to star.
That last game must've had a few stoppages, 50 hitouts to 40.
Lone ruck?? You've been telling everyone for years that casboult is so important to us because he is a 2nd ruckman and cant be judged as just a key forward. :-[
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: LP on May 02, 2018, 01:12:30 pm
You keep trying to twist the argument into something it is not as deflection.
Nope.
Neither of your arguments stack up, either head to head or side by side Jacobs has not outperformed Kreuzer. And Jacobs has been nothing special on average when he played against us either!
Both have had good games, but hardly anything to claim dominance!
Given how good Jacobs seems to go against some of the other clubs, we can probably undeniably rate our result as a win whether you think Kreuzer was good or bad!
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: kruddler on May 02, 2018, 01:23:04 pm
Neither of your arguments stack up, either head to head or side by side Jacobs has not outperformed Kreuzer. And Jacobs has been nothing special on average when he played against us either!
Both have had good games, but hardly anything to claim dominance!
Given how good Jacobs seems to go against some of the other clubs, we can probably undeniably rate our result as a win whether you think Kreuzer was good or bad!
Brownlow votes head to head. Jacobs 2 - Kreuzer 0.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: laj on May 02, 2018, 01:45:44 pm
Lone ruck?? You've been telling everyone for years that casboult is so important to us because he is a 2nd ruckman and cant be judged as just a key forward. :-[
What's wrong with you at times. Being fwit for the sake of it....again. Make your ego and your little insecurities feel better? Think you know what I mean unless you're as dumb as dog poo.
In other words ruck most of the day. No-one rucks 100% of the day. The 2nd ruck in that situation does about 20% of the job, not 50. And that 20% is pretty important.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: kruddler on May 02, 2018, 02:01:27 pm
What's wrong with you at times. Being fwit for the sake of it....again. Make your ego and your little insecurities feel better? Think you know what I mean unless you're as dumb as dog poo.
In other words ruck most of the day. No-one rucks 100% of the day. The 2nd ruck in that situation does about 20% of the job, not 50. And that 20% is pretty important.
Your words seem to contradict yourself. Nothing wrong with seeking clarification is there?
Love it how you get so hot under the collar when you get called on something. Immediately resort to insults. Dumb as dog poo? What are you, second grade??
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: LP on May 02, 2018, 02:13:14 pm
Brownlow votes head to head. Jacobs 2 - Kreuzer 0.
So after all your debate, it comes down to one game, your ultimate basis of declaring dominance is one game!
Nope.
Your call is just wrong and declaring it wrong doesn't need any explanation because reality is in the stats. For every case you cited there is a clear counterpoint or explanation reveal in hard figures that you cherry-pick select cases from to support your generalised argument.
You have become the Trump of CarltonSC! Throwing sh1t at sh1t and covering it in more crap, until the facts are buried deep in it far from view. You are not even self-consistent in your debate, and you address that fact by declaring others are being inconsistent.
But I'm not distracted by your tactics anymore. I've called you on this bullcrap more than enough, it's clear from all the hard data that Jacobs and Kreuzer are at worst break evens in Carlton and Crows matches but you can't help yourself, it's your way. You made a sweeping general statement and now you'll happily bury the truth to prove yourself "right!"
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Lods on May 02, 2018, 02:32:25 pm
When 'dog poo' starts to get thrown around...it's probably time to 'step in'. ;D
Have the debate guys ...just don't escalate the personal stuff ;)
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: kruddler on May 02, 2018, 02:35:29 pm
So after all your debate, it comes down to one game, your ultimate basis of declaring dominance is one game!
Nope.
Your call is just wrong and declaring it wrong doesn't need any explanation because reality is in the stats. For every case you cited there is a clear counterpoint or explanation reveal in hard figures that you cherry-pick select cases from to support your generalised argument.
You have become the Trump of CarltonSC! Throwing sh1t at sh1t and covering it in more crap, until the facts are buried deep in it far from view. You are not even self-consistent in your debate, and you address that fact by declaring others are being inconsistent.
But I'm not distracted by your tactics anymore. I've called you on this bullcrap more than enough, it's clear from all the hard data that Jacobs and Kreuzer are at worst break evens in Carlton and Crows matches but you can't help yourself, it's your way. You made a sweeping general statement and now you'll happily bury the truth to prove yourself "right!"
1. You have provided no stats. 2. I provided the stats which shows one player more dominant than the other. 3. You disagreed with the stats because 'kreuzer was injured' and thats why he 'lost' that game. 4. Kreuzer is injured now, but somehow previous efforts while injured don't foretell what the outcome might be this time he is injured :-\ 5. I 'cherry picked' stats. That is, i showed you EVERY GAME they played against eachother and highlighted the relevent figures for ruckmen (hitouts, possessions, goals) I can show you the rest of the stats for the game if it makes you feel better, but it won't help your argument any. 6. Your 'stats' showed a clear lack of knowledge on the topic as it cited head to head matches totalling 16, when in reality, they are a mere 4. You based your opinion, and whole argument, on a set of stats that were of no relevence in this instance....and refuse to acknowledge this, instead digging yourself into a deeper hole of ignorance. 7. You tried taking the argument in another direction, repeatedly, to distract from the lack of substance in your argument....no relevent stats quoted. 8. I call you out on diversionary tactics and try and get you to stick to the point.....and you reply with personal attacks, bringing up trump, and accusations of diversionary tactics. 9. You suggest there has been no clear dominance. I provide you with brownlow votes for 1 game (25% of their head to head) which shows clear dominance, which you shrug off. 10. You throw out 2 of their contests (50% of head to head) as being irrelevent because Kreuzer was injured. Leaving 1 other match in which stats were similar - so call it a draw. 11. By your own 'logic' (for lack of a better word), the outcome is 1 win to jacobs, 1 draw and 2 counts that 'dont count because kreuzer was injured. 12. You then say you've called me on this sort of thing before, like that is an achievement. In reality, 'before' you've used the same backward ar$ed logic and diversionary tactics to completely and utterly miss the point like you have in this case. I don't think that suits your argument, in fact i think it shoots a pretty big whole in it and any future arguments you are likely to make if this is the sort of thing you hang your hat on.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: LP on May 02, 2018, 02:48:19 pm
Quoting Lana Kane, Noooooooope!
You're sweeping statement/inference that Jacobs is/has in anyway been dominant against, with or without Kreuzer, in anyway you want to look at it, is just plain wrong! :o
You need to take off your Jacobs coloured glasses, they make the world look ginger! ;)
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: kruddler on May 02, 2018, 02:56:58 pm
You're sweeping statement/inference that Jacobs is/has in anyway been dominant against, with or without Kreuzer, in anyway you want to look at it, is just plain wrong! :o
You need to take off your Jacobs coloured glasses, they make the world look ginger! ;)
Sweeping statements? or Clearly defined points, outlined above?
Has been dominant in any way is wrong?......except when he got 2 brownlow votes because that doesn't count.
Now because i'm suggesting a player who doesn't wear navy blue might be better than one who does means i'm obviously biased and wrong. Yet, our club has been firmly sat on the ar$e end of the ladder for a while now, despite all our players being superior than all the others.
You learn something new every day.
Thanks for your insight LP. ;D
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: LP on May 02, 2018, 03:11:35 pm
Without naming names, I get the feeling that if some of the forum posters were put in charge of a council road crew, the first thing they would do is sack the person digging for failing to do everything! :o
Usually only the contractor digs the others discuss anything else.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: blue4life on May 02, 2018, 03:18:51 pm
Regardless of whether Kreuzer is better than Jacobs or vice versa I'll be hoping like crazy that he plays this weekend because Sauce will be much too good for Phillips. Not only in the ruck either, Kreuzer does much more in general play, and I'm getting sick of being spanked. But it's been that sort of year and Jacobs will probably be BOG and remind us yet again that we rated him below Warnock and Hampson. >:(
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Thryleon on May 02, 2018, 08:24:46 pm
Regardless of whether Kreuzer is better than Jacobs or vice versa I'll be hoping like crazy that he plays this weekend because Sauce will be much too good for Phillips. Not only in the ruck either, Kreuzer does much more in general play, and I'm getting sick of being spanked. But it's been that sort of year and Jacobs will probably be BOG and remind us yet again that we rated him below Warnock and Hampson. >:(
See for me irrespective of this weekend we should ruck Phillips and Casboult and leave Kreuzer to recover.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: blue4life on May 02, 2018, 09:17:21 pm
We need to put the best possible team on the park.
Yes we do. However, it seems that that the MC may be determined to get games into our young blokes, regardless of how that reduces our competitiveness.
I'm quite comfortable with that approach but I think that we have to win a few games to keep the supporters on board ... as well as teaching the young blokes that hard work and sustained effort creates rewards.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: cookie2 on May 03, 2018, 07:59:27 am
Yes we do. However, it seems that that the MC may be determined to get games into our young blokes, regardless of how that reduces our competitiveness.
I'm quite comfortable with that approach but I think that we have to win a few games to keep the supporters on board ... as well as teaching the young blokes that hard work and sustained effort creates rewards.
Precisely!
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: madbluboy on May 03, 2018, 08:07:35 am
I think we can all agree that if Kreuzer had an injury free career he probably would be the best ruckman in the business but he hasn't. In round one he was looking great till he got injured again. As soon as he went off the Tigers had their way with us.
Ask any non Carlton fan who the best ruckman in the AFL is and he won't even get a mention.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: crashlander on May 03, 2018, 09:03:38 am
I think we can all agree that if Kreuzer had an injury free career he probably would be the best ruckman in the business but he hasn't. In round one he was looking great till he got injured again. As soon as he went off the Tigers had their way with us.
Ask any non Carlton fan who the best ruckman in the AFL is and he won't even get a mention.
Special K certainly is not the best ruck in the competition, but when he is fit and in form he can be one of the most effective. And mbb is right; he doesn't get the kudos he deserves. Even from many Carlton supporters. But his form last year had very few peers. He was beaten maybe three times for the year. He at least broke even against some of best credentialed rucks and he simply thrashed most of them. He doesn't just compete in the ruck, but he makes clearances. Few rucks do that.
One of the positive things about Phillips so far is that he has been able to at least break even, usually doing better. This has not been the case earlier in his career. Unfortunately he runs out of gas in the second half. Not surprising given his history of injury, but a disappointment all the same.
In the past Kreuzer has been struggling with fitness and has let the ruck become a battle of strength with Jacobs. That has been a mistake which has allowed Sauce to play well against Kreuzer. Get Jacobs to run after Kreuzer and the matter takes on a whole new light.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Thryleon on May 03, 2018, 09:12:41 am
We need to put the best possible team on the park.
Agree but unless Kreuzer is ready to go playing him at the moment could be possibly the worst decision for both him and our team possible.
Given the results are a bit irrelevant for us (unless you believe Bolton needs to win games to keep the faith in him) its not a significant difference in performance and it might be better for Kreuzer to rehab and recover. From where I sit, we have the chance to win three in a row later from about round 15 onwards, and the Bombers game is the only game before the bye we need to be getting everyone cherry ripe for. That means pushing out our best side capable of winning, provided no one is playing under significant duress.
Special K certainly is not the best ruck in the competition, but when he is fit and in form he can be one of the most effective. And mbb is right; he doesn't get the kudos he deserves. Even from many Carlton supporters. But his form last year had very few peers. He was beaten maybe three times for the year. He at least broke even against some of best credentialed rucks and he simply thrashed most of them. He doesn't just compete in the ruck, but he makes clearances. Few rucks do that.
One of the positive things about Phillips so far is that he has been able to at least break even, usually doing better. This has not been the case earlier in his career. Unfortunately he runs out of gas in the second half. Not surprising given his history of injury, but a disappointment all the same.
In the past Kreuzer has been struggling with fitness and has let the ruck become a battle of strength with Jacobs. That has been a mistake which has allowed Sauce to play well against Kreuzer. Get Jacobs to run after Kreuzer and the matter takes on a whole new light.
Thats assuming Kreuzer can actually run around for 4 quarters. In his 3 games thus far this season, he has played 66%, 71% and 80% of game time, whilst Phillips has gone at 86% and 83% of game time.
It all points to Kreuzer not being fit, and that means you don't play him unless he has proven he is not only right to play, but is also fit enough to run an opposition ruckman around the ground.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: LP on May 03, 2018, 10:30:17 am
Thats assuming Kreuzer can actually run around for 4 quarters. In his 3 games thus far this season, he has played 66%, 71% and 80% of game time, whilst Phillips has gone at 86% and 83% of game time.
It all points to Kreuzer not being fit, and that means you don't play him unless he has proven he is not only right to play, but is also fit enough to run an opposition ruckman around the ground.
Firstly given he was injured Rnd 1 it's not bad.
ToG figures are pretty meaningless without careful cross correlation to intensity, any spud can spend 100% ToG but be sauntering around like a goose!
It would be interesting to know how much ground is covered by various players, which would give you meters per minute or Intensity as the AFL fitness pepole like to call it. I wouldn't be surprised to find Kreuzer pre-injury right at the top of the list of our bigger players.
It's one of my biggest bugbears with SPS, there is nothing worse than seeing a young fit bloke like SPS jogging along in the background as someone like Daisy or Wright sprints past him after the ball carrier.
If my assertion about Kreuzer having a Psoas injury is correct, you won't see him regain full running intensity until next season. He'll be OK as long as it's straight line stuff, but direction changes will be very sluggish by his normal standards. If I was coaching against Kreuzer I'd ask his opponent to weave and zag all over the place, lots of lateral movement and try to get Kreuzer following. If I was coaching Kreuzer, I'd tell him to ignore chasing opponents too far laterally and hold the main corridor to force them wide, let them run themselves into the ground avoiding a contest.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Thryleon on May 03, 2018, 11:06:06 am
ToG figures are pretty meaningless without careful cross correlation to intensity, any spud can spend 100% ToG but be sauntering around like a goose!
It would be interesting to know how much ground is covered by various players, which would give you meters per minute or Intensity as the AFL fitness pepole like to call it. I wouldn't be surprised to find Kreuzer pre-injury right at the top of the list of our bigger players.
It's one of my biggest bugbears with SPS, there is nothing worse than seeing a young fit bloke like SPS jogging along in the background as someone like Daisy or Wright sprints past him after the ball carrier.
If my assertion about Kreuzer having a Psoas injury is correct, you won't see him regain full running intensity until next season. He'll be OK as long as it's straight line stuff, but direction changes will be very sluggish by his normal standards. If I was coaching against Kreuzer I'd ask his opponent to weave and zag all over the place, lots of lateral movement and try to get Kreuzer following. If I was coaching Kreuzer, I'd tell him to ignore chasing opponents too far laterally and hold the main corridor to force them wide, let them run themselves into the ground avoiding a contest.
He's spent 2 of his three games visually unable to compete for at least a quarter and a half. Once you take 25% of the game away, you are left with a maximum 75% time on ground.
Kreuzer played a good first half against Richmond, and I have seen nothing to suggest that he should play against Adelaide in place of a fit ruckman thus far this season.
Give him his rest, don't fly him to Adelaide, get him cherry ripe for Essendon.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Thryleon on May 03, 2018, 11:10:03 am
To go with that, ruck him at VFL level this week. If he proves he can get through 4 quarters, play him at AFL level.
I don't see what message you send to Phillips and by extension the group, if Kreuzer walk up starts against Adelaide this week.
He is our number 1 ruckman, and he has had his fair share of injuries, and didn't finish the game at Blundstone in his last outing, because we were getting hammered. That means others have to carry his load whilst he sits out.
Lets not repeat that mistake.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: LP on May 03, 2018, 11:18:48 am
To go with that, ruck him at VFL level this week. If he proves he can get through 4 quarters, play him at AFL level.
I don't see what message you send to Phillips and by extension the group, if Kreuzer walk up starts against Adelaide this week.
He is our number 1 ruckman, and he has had his fair share of injuries, and didn't finish the game at Blundstone in his last outing, because we were getting hammered. That means others have to carry his load whilst he sits out.
Lets not repeat that mistake.
In reality we now know he sat out because of injury, not because he wasn't fit enough and being managed. And it is true that sitting Kreuzer out meant others had to be on the ground injured, if I recall correctly both Kennedy and Weitering went back on the ground with ankles and corkies. But that is part of football.
But that is no different to a 100% fit player getting injured in the first few minutes. The problem you write about really becomes an issue if you start playing too many unfit players from the get go, like Kennedy, Kreuzer, Marchbank and Weitering all at once. But we've heard the coaches talk about players needing to learn to cope with adversity as part of their development. However, too many at once is clearly a problem.
On that issue, I'm pretty sure if we keep pushing Cripps he'll break down eventually, he needs to find another string to his bow so he can have a natural chop-out form the crash and bang stuff.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: laj on May 03, 2018, 01:47:16 pm
Phuk!!!! I was looking at a smaller side but this wasn't what I had in mind.
In reality we now know he sat out because of injury, not because he wasn't fit enough and being managed. And it is true that sitting Kreuzer out meant others had to be on the ground injured, if I recall correctly both Kennedy and Weitering went back on the ground with ankles and corkies. But that is part of football.
But that is no different to a 100% fit player getting injured in the first few minutes. The problem you write about really becomes an issue if you start playing too many unfit players from the get go, like Kennedy, Kreuzer, Marchbank and Weitering all at once. But we've heard the coaches talk about players needing to learn to cope with adversity as part of their development. However, too many at once is clearly a problem.
On that issue, I'm pretty sure if we keep pushing Cripps he'll break down eventually, he needs to find another string to his bow so he can have a natural chop-out form the crash and bang stuff.
This is the point though.
We should ruck Phillips this weekend. There is almost no more than a 5% more likely chance that rucking Kreuzer instead of Phillips gives us a win (and that is being remarkably generous I might add).
Kreuzer replacing Phillips, in a season where quite frankly, we are not likely to win again until we get many more fit bodies back than just Kreuzer, reeks of desperation. Its a low percentage increase in performance, to gain very little firepower, and exposes him to much greater risk because of the FLY factor. If we were facing Adelaide at the MCG this weekend, id change my tune somewhat, but it smells of mismanagement (again).
It seems to be a high risk, low reward option to take because Kreuzer's performance doesn't give us an edge, and Kruddlers stats point to this being the case.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Professer E on May 03, 2018, 02:08:13 pm
Time to play Kerr.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: laj on May 03, 2018, 02:18:40 pm
We play Adelaide in Adelaide next Saturday night. Things do not bode well.
Send our apologies....tell them we can't make it :(
You can have seasons where you have a bit of bad luck. I cant remember too many where you have no luck at all!
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: kruddler on May 03, 2018, 06:27:23 pm
In
Jarrod Garlett, Matthew Kreuzer, Nick Graham
Out
Caleb Marchbank (Injured), Jack Silvagni (Omitted), Charlie Curnow (Injured)
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: shawny on May 03, 2018, 06:30:53 pm
OMG Graham.... WTF.
While i dont rate Polson still would have preferred him to Graham. Graham is a good 2nds player but awful at AFL standard and not like he hasn't had chances.
Makes no sense to use a player like him this week.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Professer E on May 03, 2018, 06:34:17 pm
Playing two rucks.... Hmm. At least Phillips smashes in, he'll give Jacobs something to think about.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: laj on May 03, 2018, 06:36:52 pm
So we have a resting ruckman, Casboult, McKay all up forward. Still a very tall backline too. No lessons are learnt. We're as slow as fk again. What's Phillips going to do when he's sitting around in the forward line, or Kreuzer to a lesser extent. Adelaide will just waltz out of defence with run from the half back line, then contend with our tall, slow defence. Could we go any taller? Then we pick Graham, who's slow. Match Committee have no fkn idea. We'll be as fast as a Mac Truck going up a steep hill.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: cookie2 on May 03, 2018, 06:37:00 pm
While i dont rate Polson still would have preferred him to Graham. Graham is a good 2nds player but awful at AFL standard and not like he hasn't had chances.
Makes no sense to use a player like him this week.
Agree, Graham is a puzzling selection. Are we planning to double team Jacobs? I reckon we'll see a pretty defensive game plan although Garlett is an attacking player, maybe for the fast breakouts?
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Lods on May 03, 2018, 06:37:59 pm
Would have preferred to see Kreuzer rested.
Hopefully the team can bring some effort. If they do that they won't get any criticism from me whatever the score. We're really up against it this week...but sometimes they're the best scenarios. Nothing to lose....which puts the pressure back on Adelaide ;)
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: cookie2 on May 03, 2018, 06:38:59 pm
So we have a resting ruckman, Casboult, McKay all up forward. Still a very tall backline too. No lessons are learnt. We're as slow as fk again. What's Phillips going to do when he's sitting around in the forward line, or Kreuzer to a lesser extent. Adelaide will just waltz out of defence with run from the half back line, then contend with our tall, slow defence. Match Committee have no fkn idea.
Phillips and Kreuz may be rotated via the bench?
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Lods on May 03, 2018, 06:39:34 pm
So we have a resting ruckman, Casboult, McKay all up forward. Still a very tall backline too. No lessons are learnt. We're as slow as fk again. What's Phillips going to do when he's sitting around in the forward line, or Kreuzer to a lesser extent. Adelaide will just waltz out of defence with run from the half back line, then contend with our tall, slow defence. Match Committee have no fkn idea.
Well it's an opportunity to test your theory that we can't play both Kreuzer and Phillips at the one time. We'll have a result Saturday night. ;)
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: laj on May 03, 2018, 06:56:44 pm
Well it's an opportunity to test your theory that we can't play both Kreuzer and Phillips at the one time. We'll have a result Saturday night. ;)
We've had that result many, many times for the same non-result. Didn't need to see it again.
Match Committee obviously haven't heard the saying.....the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result.
What are we going to do with 2 key forwards and a ruckman in the forward 50. Watch the ball sail away out of there time and again. I sure hope their hands are sticky. Our club has no concept of modern footy.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: laj on May 03, 2018, 06:57:55 pm
Since limited interchange came in they can't do that much anymore. That's where most sides stopped using two rucks unless they could do something up forward.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: kruddler on May 03, 2018, 07:00:28 pm
Seems the MC might be a bit worried about an injured Kreuzer coming up against sauce Jacobs all by himself. O:-)
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: laj on May 03, 2018, 07:09:06 pm
Since limited interchange came in they can't do that much anymore. That's where most sides stopped using two rucks unless they could do something up forward.
Maybe a combination of both, especially if we go defensive?
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 03, 2018, 07:12:24 pm
We'll win this.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: cookie2 on May 03, 2018, 07:14:04 pm
Seems the MC might be a bit worried about an injured Kreuzer coming up against sauce Jacobs all by himself. O:-)
Next week we will be dropping Zach fisher to bring in Tom de Koning.
I think we are aiming to be the tallest least Mobile team in the AFL.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: blue4life on May 03, 2018, 07:53:42 pm
Graham isn't much good but if you're going to reward good VFL form then he had to play. It's a shame that Cunningham got hurt but it is what it is. I'm baffled why we're going in with two specialist rucks.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: madbluboy on May 03, 2018, 08:02:19 pm
Graham isn't much good but if you're going to reward good VFL form then he had to play. It's a shame that Cunningham got hurt but it is what it is. I'm baffled why we're going in with two specialist rucks.
So Casboult will play full time forward because Curnow is out.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: crashlander on May 03, 2018, 08:09:17 pm
CARLTON
B: Lachie Plowman, Liam Jones, Kade Simpson HB: Aaron Mullett, Sam Rowe, Cameron O'Shea C: Lochie O'Brien, Patrick Cripps, Zac Fisher HF: Dale Thomas, Harry McKay, Matthew Wright F: Andrew Phillips, Levi Casboult, Jarrod Garlett R: Matthew Kreuzer, Ed Curnow, Matthew Kennedy Int: Paddy Dow, Nick Graham, Sam Kerridge, Sam Petrevski-Seton
Emg: Darcy Lang, Jed Lamb, Matt Shaw, Kym Lebois
IN: Jarrod Garlett, Matthew Kreuzer, Nick Graham
OUT: Caleb Marchbank (Injured), Jack Silvagni (Omitted), Charlie Curnow (Injured)
ADELAIDE CROWS
B: Luke Brown, Tom Doedee, Andy Otten HB: Rory Laird, Daniel Talia, Wayne Milera C: Paul Seedsman, Matt Crouch, David Mackay HF: Jordan Gallucci, Mitch McGovern, Tom Lynch F: Eddie Betts, Josh Jenkins, Richard Douglas R: Sam Jacobs, Bryce Gibbs, Cameron Ellis-Yolmen Int: Jake Kelly, Hugh Greenwood, Rory Atkins, Darcy Fogarty
I'm thinking we will be competitive but scoring will be an issue and with Charlie out managed IMO I wonder how serious we are this week... Riley Knight managed.. :P...if you are managing your B graders then thats cocky.....Knight might cone in for Mackay.. Dont really have anyone to stop Eddie, this is Mullets big chance to make a name for himself and lock in a spot....
Matt Kennedy fit?.......be interesting to see who they play on Cripps,,,Gibbs has the know how but not the body size, Ellis-Yolmen is a unit but lacks a bit of nous....
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: blue4life on May 03, 2018, 08:36:48 pm
Lang & Lamb will come in for sure, 1 of Kreuzer & Philips won’t play and one other.....IMHO ;)
agreed, I reckon there will be a late change or 2 weather depending. Oh well, lets see if we can make a decent fist of this game. I myself will be having a Canadian whiskey or 12 before the game, to make it more bearable :-\
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: deags on May 04, 2018, 08:14:38 am
Luckily I'm having surgery tomorrow, so either I will be too out of it to watch tomorrow night, or hopefully won't be able to remember it if I do watch.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: cookie2 on May 04, 2018, 08:21:31 am
Luckily I'm having surgery tomorrow, so either I will be too out of it to watch tomorrow night, or hopefully won't be able to remember it if I do watch.
All the best Deags! Hopefully you can wake up to a pleasant surprise.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: laj on May 04, 2018, 08:31:34 am
Luckily I'm having surgery tomorrow, so either I will be too out of it to watch tomorrow night, or hopefully won't be able to remember it if I do watch.
Good luck!
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: laj on May 04, 2018, 08:34:06 am
Luckily I'm having surgery tomorrow, so either I will be too out of it to watch tomorrow night, or hopefully won't be able to remember it if I do watch.
I hope it goes well.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: deags on May 04, 2018, 08:51:54 am
Thanks folks. Im getting a cochlear implant, it's going to be very interesting.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: madbluboy on May 04, 2018, 08:58:01 am
Luckily I'm having surgery tomorrow, so either I will be too out of it to watch tomorrow night, or hopefully won't be able to remember it if I do watch.
Good luck, I hope it goes well.
But you know that means probably both the VFL and AFL will win, it's always that way, when you are out of range, at a wedding or otherwise indisposed they come good!
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: deags on May 04, 2018, 12:00:32 pm
Haha, I'll take it!
Thanks for the best wishes people.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 04, 2018, 12:09:18 pm
Good luck deags. Hope everything works out for you matey.
x10...Cochlear was a wonderful development, Prof Clark did my tonsils as a little tacker.... Hope it all goes well and the Blues can get a win for you too...
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: capcom on May 04, 2018, 12:27:56 pm
Luckily I'm having surgery tomorrow, so either I will be too out of it to watch tomorrow night, or hopefully won't be able to remember it if I do watch.
All the very best, DEAGS. Wishing for you a very successful outcome. :)
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: northernblue on May 04, 2018, 09:15:42 pm
Damn crash. Sorry to hear. Thanks all! Very nice to “hear” the best wishes ????
All the best
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: BlueAvenger on May 05, 2018, 06:58:56 am
Want to see Cas smash through packs, Kreuzer and Phillips really dump the cows mids, a few Dusty like fend offs from Cripps, Dow sprinting out of a few centre clearances with ball tucked under arm, Gibbs absolutely poleaxed a few times, and Betts to have zero touches, tackles, goals etc. And a decent contest please. I don't ask for much but hey, fella can dream
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: deags on May 05, 2018, 07:16:55 am
Damn crash. Sorry to hear. Thanks all! Very nice to “hear” the best wishes ????
Good luck Deags, all the very best best to you.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 05, 2018, 07:28:17 am
Yes we have a few outs so do they. No Sloan, no Tex, no Mackay and a Crouch missing, I reckon they are gettable. I'd be telling our boys to forget the home deck, its green grass, sticks at either end, kick it through the big one more times than them. Keep it simple, crack in hard, give it to a bloke with the same jumper as yours and run. PS If someone doesnt come up, I'd be tempted to give Lebois a go for so more run. He showed a bit during the preseason, especially with his tackling. I reckon he might go alright against his old mob. Just a thought. Go Blues
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: cookie2 on May 05, 2018, 08:42:25 am
Thanks folks. Im getting a cochlear implant, it's going to be very interesting.
I was going to ask if you were getting the testicles as well but thought it would be inappropriate. Looks like it has gone there anyway. ::) ;D Seriously. Good luck with the implant and hopefully there's a big improvement for you. ;) :D
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: ianh on May 05, 2018, 05:46:07 pm
I'd be tempted to give Lebois a go for so more run. He showed a bit during the preseason, especially with his tackling. I reckon he might go alright against his old mob. Just a thought.
Woody got collected very early in the 2s today, broken collarbone apparently. Tough break
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: townsendcalling on May 05, 2018, 06:10:54 pm
Lamb is our traveling emergency.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: blue4life on May 05, 2018, 06:31:20 pm
No late changed for either side. Just crack in and see what happens Blues, if you give a 100% effort I'll be happy win or lose.
Title: Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide
Post by: Lods on May 05, 2018, 06:59:46 pm