Princes Park => Robert Heatley Stand => Topic started by: Lods on April 25, 2022, 08:35:13 am
Title: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: Lods on April 25, 2022, 08:35:13 am
We often argue about the merits of players. We see things differently and rate players on different criteria. I tend to give preference to players who give a 100% effort, sometimes over players with better skills. Simon Wiggins was a player whose place in the side was often questioned, but he was a particular favourite of mine.
As a result we often find ourselves at odds with team selections...and question 'Why?' player X is getting a game while obviously more talented players find themselves treading water in the second side.
The simple answer is that coaches have set certain standards for individuals to be promoted and those players aren't meeting them. Team balance could be another reason.
We have the situation at the moment where there are queries over the continued presence of some players in the side While we're still a developing team these criteria for selection may be worth the pain....but there must come a point when it has to be the very best side we can put on the ground.
I've no doubt selections are made with a lot more information than we supporters have access to, but when there is almost unanimous questioning of a selection...well, can we all be so wrong!
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 25, 2022, 09:10:11 am
Coaches have favourites and every team has a couple of players who get games each week who fans can't understand why they even remain on the list. Teague seemed a fan of Plowman who has driven some fans to despair but Voss has had no problems playing him in the twos and promoting another equally highly debatable quantity in Parks to replace him.
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: kruddler on April 25, 2022, 11:17:28 am
I've got no problem with rewarding effort, and dropping players who wan't to do their own thing.
My issue is when that effort rarely, if ever, presents itself at AFL level and when it doesn't overcome the shortcomings of that player.
Case in point is Boyd. Yay, he did 1 good smother and showed a great example. However, how many 'out on the full' do we see from him? How many turnovers directly to opposition do we see? Missed tackles?
The net gain/loss from his inclusion seems to be very much a loss. So much so, that he doesn't deserve a spot on the list IMO.
Plenty of other players have their 'pet hates' in the team. LOB, Plowman, Setterfield, Newnes, Fisher.....
....but imo, they clearly offer something, even with their flaws, over someone like Boyd.
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: Lods on April 25, 2022, 12:02:05 pm
I've got no problem with rewarding effort, and dropping players who wan't to do their own thing.
My issue is when that effort rarely, if ever, presents itself at AFL level and when it doesn't overcome the shortcomings of that player.
Case in point is Boyd. Yay, he did 1 good smother and showed a great example. However, how many 'out on the full' do we see from him? How many turnovers directly to opposition do we see? Missed tackles?
The net gain/loss from his inclusion seems to be very much a loss. So much so, that he doesn't deserve a spot on the list IMO.
Plenty of other players have their 'pet hates' in the team. LOB, Plowman, Setterfield, Newnes, Fisher.....
....but imo, they clearly offer something, even with their flaws, over someone like Boyd.
Yep That's what it seems from the outside looking in. It has the supporters wondering and questioning. Interesting, you rarely, if ever, hear a journalist ask a question as to why a Boyd is preferred over a Dow, who appears to be a much better option. The medical sub is a funny position Do you go with the next best player, or do you go with another player and allow numbers 23 and 24 to get a full game in the seconds. That makes a bit of sense, only to the point that if you get an early injury it can backfire...especially if you're swapping a small for a tall. For mine, the medical sub should always be a medium sized utility.
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: bricky on April 25, 2022, 01:07:16 pm
For mine, the medical sub should always be a medium sized utility.
Makes sense to me
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: Mantis on April 25, 2022, 02:56:06 pm
Medical sub is a difficult one. Do you inject a player with enough x-factory that can swing a game? Do you swap a like for a like? Do you add a smaller player to replace a taller player considering you may be experiencing problems in the middle of the ground to better balance to squad? Player selections will always be a debate. Why was player “A” selected, when players “B, C, and D look like better options? Why did the coach inject such a player as a sub?
I would only guess that once we develop the entire squad better, and truely see some genuine depth, we will see better balance in the playing group. Injuries will influence this week in, week out. I hope we find a way to better develop young players. I am amazed how many times we see new inclusions in a main squad produce remarkable performances even though they lack experience, and deliver what is required on a regular basis for other sides. I hope we get to this point in time and grow some quality inclusions through the draft process.
Kennedy, Gov, Silvagni and Jones are players with great ability to produce in roles that suit. It is a shame we lost Jones under the particular circumstances. Find us another Jnr Jones and we are on our way to minimise defensive holes in our squad. Good questions Lods. Good topic of debate.
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 25, 2022, 03:50:51 pm
I like my medical sub to be a player with X factor who can change games and give you a lift...Martin, Honey, Motlop etc..Ted Hopkins...
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: Lods on April 25, 2022, 04:09:53 pm
For mine, the medical sub should always be a medium sized utility.
Kemp is the ideal sub IMO.
Can cover most positions on the ground, or cover someone else who can cover the other positions. That is, he can play forward or back, but if we need a ruck, Young can go in and he can cover key back. Need a pure mid? He can cover Walsh on a wing and walsh can go in....etc.
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: Lods on April 25, 2022, 05:41:31 pm
I think that's the key. It needs to be a player who can slot in or open up multiple positions. We never know whether they're going to be activated in the first minute, the last minute...or not at all.
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: RiverRat on April 25, 2022, 06:33:12 pm
Depending on the verdict with Pittonet, it might be a ruckman we're chasing in the mid-season draft?
There is a bit of a dearth of quality "mature" rucks at VFL level or below, plenty of project players at the moment but not many ready-made to go!
Club is suspiciously quiet on Pitto but I'm all for our club reverting to it's old ways, he's OK, he's OK, he's OK, until selection night and he's out unexpectedly with general soreness.
There are a couple of old fashioned tap rucks around suburban footy, but they won't cut it in AFL, they just aren't mobile enough. Club's cannot afford to surrender a lose player to the opposition after the bounce, teams are too good now at using the unmarked player!
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 26, 2022, 02:16:27 pm
Max Ramsden from the Sandy Dragons will get picked up in the mid season rookie draft as a ruckman of the future, good athlete at 202cm and while a journeyman has short term appeal if we want a ruckman for the future he would be the way to go. Will Hayes seems likely though given his VFL form and we would probably need two picks if thats the case as I cant see the club ignoring Hayes form... Jack Hannath ex Freo now with Glenelg is probably a reasonable player for that short term fix.....
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: WASurfer on April 26, 2022, 02:32:20 pm
EB what sort of role would Hayes likely fill? Is he purely a midfielder? If so, hard to see how he breaks into the team when you've got Cripps, Walsh, Cerra, Hewett, Kennedy etc. Or is he more of an outside sort that could play on the wings? Even then, we seem to have a number of options for that as well....question is whether he's a better option than everything we've already got?
Where we seem to be short of options is key defender and ruck. Support for Weitering is basically Young, McDonald and McGovern. If I'm a betting man then it's odds on that McDonald and McGovern will get injured again before the season is out....leaving only Young. And he might now be required to play in the ruck if Pittonet is out for an extended period.
I would've thought those would be the two positions we'd be addressing at the mid-season draft? Even last year, Boyd was a player where we already seemed to have enough options and selecting him seemed strange at the time?
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: LP on April 26, 2022, 02:46:59 pm
I think Hayes thrives at VFL level because his extreme aerobic capacity sees him playing midfield and running hard all day long.
But at AFL level he's a bit small and light and not so fast relative to others, so the Dogs played him as a small forward, that took away Hayes principle weapon which is the hard running and he had no speed advantage.
Hayes might be a backup alternative to Owies or Fisher, if we allow him to get up the field, but then we have blokes like Stocker, Carroll and Honey languishing in the VFL and I think they have more AFL tricks.
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: LP on April 26, 2022, 03:18:02 pm
We played Sat night, no Pitto news, Filth played late yesterday afternoon and gave their fans an update on the Reg Grundy before lunch today.
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: Thryleon on April 26, 2022, 03:32:48 pm
Max Ramsden from the Sandy Dragons will get picked up in the mid season rookie draft as a ruckman of the future, good athlete at 202cm and while a journeyman has short term appeal if we want a ruckman for the future he would be the way to go. Will Hayes seems likely though given his VFL form and we would probably need two picks if thats the case as I cant see the club ignoring Hayes form... Jack Hannath ex Freo now with Glenelg is probably a reasonable player for that short term fix.....
Not sure how many spots we have, but unless i am mistaken, with Jones off the list that has us with at least one vacancy to fill, and we may have scope for a second if Pitto ends up an LTI.
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 26, 2022, 03:36:32 pm
EB what sort of role would Hayes likely fill? Is he purely a midfielder? If so, hard to see how he breaks into the team when you've got Cripps, Walsh, Cerra, Hewett, Kennedy etc. Or is he more of an outside sort that could play on the wings? Even then, we seem to have a number of options for that as well....question is whether he's a better option than everything we've already got?
Where we seem to be short of options is key defender and ruck. Support for Weitering is basically Young, McDonald and McGovern. If I'm a betting man then it's odds on that McDonald and McGovern will get injured again before the season is out....leaving only Young. And he might now be required to play in the ruck if Pittonet is out for an extended period.
I would've thought those would be the two positions we'd be addressing at the mid-season draft? Even last year, Boyd was a player where we already seemed to have enough options and selecting him seemed strange at the time?
Surfie, I'm not sold on Hayes either as I think too he is on the small side but sometimes form and local knowledge over rides need and Nick Austin like his ex Dogs players ie Boyd, Young.... Blake Schlensog is a player who could fill a need as a Key defender and can also play as a swingman and like Young can run in the ruck given he is 199cm. You would probably know more about him than me given he plays for Sth Fremantle and has been on the fringes of being drafted as a mature ager in recent times due to his good WAFL form. If Hayes did get picked up I think he would play on a wing which has been a problem area in that Ed Langdon type of role where he can get 30 possies a game and link up from half back to half forward with his hard running which is what Langdon is now famous for.
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: Thryleon on April 26, 2022, 03:39:21 pm
How is Jesse Glass-McKasker travelling in the VFL?
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: kruddler on April 26, 2022, 03:44:44 pm
Not sure how many spots we have, but unless i am mistaken, with Jones off the list that has us with at least one vacancy to fill, and we may have scope for a second if Pitto ends up an LTI.
IIRC we had the option of taking 1 more player previously, but chose to hold off for the MSD.
Any LTI could add another spot on top of that.
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: LP on April 26, 2022, 03:45:49 pm
If and it is a big if, if the AFL changed the vaccine mandate would we approach Jones or has he burnt his bridge with our club?
Caro said he wont be allowed back anytime soon as the AFL wont be changing their Vaccine requirements.....another club would draft him given he is no longer a listed player and have to enter one of the drafts. Caro suggested Carlton would want compensation if he was to return via another club and it would be a awkward situation.
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: kruddler on April 26, 2022, 03:52:51 pm
If and it is a big if, if the AFL changed the vaccine mandate would we approach Jones or has he burnt his bridge with our club?
I think he 'retired'. As a retired player, your club can not redraft you via the MSD.
Its basically to stop top clubs banking an older player for the second half of the year.
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: LP on April 26, 2022, 03:55:01 pm
On Jones regardless of whether we can or cannot, would we if we could?
PS; My thought is no.
What I've seen already from Gov tells me no more chaos footballers in the back half, I'm not even happy with Weiters punching the ball so much in 2022!
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: kruddler on April 26, 2022, 04:01:46 pm
On Jones regardless of whether we can or cannot, would we if we could?
PS; My thought is no.
What I've seen already from Gov tells me no more chaos footballers in the back half, I'm not even happy with Weiters punching the ball so much in 2022!
Would I? yes and no. Footballing output? Yes. Putting himself above the club? No.
People fixate on his negatives and overlook the positives. He is 200cm tall, can run, jump, mark, move and kick it like a 6 footer....and occasionally does someone you'd like to take back.....but so does everyone else. His skill set is rather unique and is an upgrade on any alternative we have. People use to blame him for the run of goals....well he aint there and it still happens, so its not him.
But....He screwed us by retiring...after the draft IIRC...and put us in a terrible position, sure, he is allowed to choose whats best for him, but you want players who sacrifice themselves for the betterment of the team, and he did the opposite.
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 26, 2022, 04:29:38 pm
Would I? yes and no. Footballing output? Yes. Putting himself above the club? No.
People fixate on his negatives and overlook the positives. He is 200cm tall, can run, jump, mark, move and kick it like a 6 footer....and occasionally does someone you'd like to take back.....but so does everyone else. His skill set is rather unique and is an upgrade on any alternative we have. People use to blame him for the run of goals....well he aint there and it still happens, so its not him.
But....He screwed us by retiring...after the draft IIRC...and put us in a terrible position, sure, he is allowed to choose whats best for him, but you want players who sacrifice themselves for the betterment of the team, and he did the opposite.
Agree...Jones back would really help us and free up a few players for other roles. Did I reads he won the most one on ones for a backman last season?
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: kruddler on April 26, 2022, 04:40:37 pm
Agree...Jones back would really help us and free up a few players for other roles. Did I reads he won the most one on ones for a backman last season?
He and Weitering were 1 and 2 about 3/4's of the way through the year, so probably.
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: laj on April 26, 2022, 05:00:33 pm
Fans often talk with emotion while the coaches see things differently as they don't have that emotion attached. A side loses and everyone is no good according to the fan....lol.
On the other hand we do see coaches locked into certain players too when they are struggling and don't have that real ability when it is obvious to one and all the player should not be playing.
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: Thryleon on April 26, 2022, 08:31:06 pm
Coaches probably look at system issues rather than individual performances and ability.
Owies is an example of a player who works his dot off to do team things and plays system instead of his talent and generally does ok.
Would we want him better? Absolutely but we can only play him on his merits, and I think he's complimentary to the forward line whilst really gets up and down the field.
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: Lods on April 26, 2022, 09:02:00 pm
I think position and tasks has a fair bit to do with it too. The supporters tend to think in terms of a good performance being-
Especially for television watchers, we don't always get a 'total' picture of the player doing his assigned task. We don't always know what that is. It's not always that obvious.
Title: Re: Coach Eyes v Fan Goggles
Post by: LP on April 26, 2022, 10:24:10 pm