Carlton Supporters Club

An EV has won Dakar!  No it didn't, it's not an EV!

So which is it?  An electric vehicle, or a petrol vehicle? The opposing camps are each claiming the vehicle as their own.

The answer is both and neither. It's a hybrid. Similar in fact to Nissan's X-Trail e-Power.

So the Audi RS Q e-tron is indeed pure electric drive. It has an electric motor on the front axle, and another on the rear.  The "centre differential" is software, virtual.  This is just like Rivians, AWD Teslas including Cybertruck and the other AWD EVs.  There is no gearbox, single-speed.  Watch my EV AWD powertrains video for more on all of this.

The Audi RS Q e-tron also has a battery which weighs around 370kg and has a capacity of around 52kWh, which is pretty small for even a roadcar EV.  Total weight is 2100kg without drivers.

Now as you can imagine a 52kWh battery isn't going to get a 2100kg sand racer on 37" tyres very far. Which is why there is also a 2.0L, four-cyclinder turbo petrol engine which acts as a generator, or energy convertor - it generates electricity which either powers the motors at the axle, or charges the battery. The battery can also be recharged via re-gen when the vehicle slows.  And that's exactly what the X-Trail e-Power uses. Older hybrids used the ICE motors to directly drive the powertrain as well as the electric motors.

So is the Audi RS Q e-tron an EV?  Yes, and also, no.  Yes as it has electric motors which drive the car, and that is the technical definition of an EV, which doesn't preclude how those motors have their power supplied - from a generator driven by petrol, hydrogen, or just a big battery, or even solar. A "hydrogen car" is also an EV as it uses electricity to power its engine, just that electricity is generated by a hydrogen powerplant.  The definition of an EV doesn't mean it has to have a battery.

But in popular parlance, most people think of an EV as what is actually a BEV, or Battery Electric Vehicle which has no ICE (petrol/diesel) engine at all, and the Audi RS Q e-tron is not a BEV as whilst it has a battery, it also has a petrol engine.

Hopefully that clears it up.  You can go back to shouting at each other now which should make everyone feel better.

My diesel V8 will probably keep going until diesel is outlawed or becomes too expensive.  I probably won't need a vehicle then  :)

This is the million dollar question that nobody seems to know the answer too. When is Diesel (and petrol) going to become unsustainable financially.

I'm due for a new work car that is sorted through work. I can have a 2-3 year lease and buy it out after that which at that time, will most likely go to the missus and she can sell her car (currently a CX9.)

So i've been kicking tyres for 2 years trying to work out what i should get / invest in with an eye to the long term viability of it and how it would suit our families needs basically now and 6 years from now.

Currently i've got a ranger and am very happy with it. Doesn't miss a beat, has all the fancy tech which half drives itself.
But, the missus won't want to drive a ranger as a daily drive....and fair enough too. Ditto any other ute.
So i've been looking at some SUVs and Prado and Everest seem to be the go-to options which i can make do with and she'd happily drive down the track....and have the 7 seats which she 'needs' despite us only having 2 kids....but i digress.

Currently there is no PHEV (insert acronym here) in either of those and varying reports on if/when there will be, despite it being 'on-the-cards' for years now.

So do i continue to wait for a hybrid?
Do i pull the plug now and end up with a money sink down the track?

Currently i'm in a state of paralysis by analysis and i need to get moving one way or another soon.
What do i do?

So i've been looking at some SUVs and Prado and Everest seem to be the go-to options which i can make do with and she'd happily drive down the track....and have the 7 seats which she 'needs' despite us only having 2 kids....but i digress.

Currently there is no PHEV (insert acronym here) in either of those and varying reports on if/when there will be, despite it being 'on-the-cards' for years now.

So do i continue to wait for a hybrid?
Do i pull the plug now and end up with a money sink down the track?

Currently i'm in a state of paralysis by analysis and i need to get moving one way or another soon.
What do i do?

I can't believe the changes of mind over the Everest PHEV.  One article says 2024, the next says never and so on ad nauseum.  ::)

I don't things will change dramatically over the next five years or so ... but that could be famous last words!

So i've been kicking tyres for 2 years trying to work out what i should get / invest in with an eye to the long term viability of it and how it would suit our families needs basically now and 6 years from now.

For me waiting for a reliable PHEV might be a long wait, when the first ones come out they'll struggle. A mate just took delivery of a brand new top end Merc FEV 4WD, his summary after 3 months, "Piece of crap, I want my money back".

You pay all that money, and it's a lot like $180K, and the thing breaks down and is off the road for a week at a time twice in the first 3 months. No genuine local support, technicians coming in from OS, so he's gone back to diesel.

I'm not sure if it's better to wait for Hydrogen 4WD if you want to go green, it's already working reliably in buses and trucks, you just need more filling options to appear and they will eventually.

All I’ve heard about Chinese ev is that they’re great, all I’ve heard about euro/yank ev is that they stink

I’m hearing from non Australian ev owners that battery degradation is minimal and they are expecting the batteries to outlast the car itself.
Sure, only time will tell but I wouldn’t want a ice petrol with 300,000km+ but these ev owners believe they’ll be getting 600-1000000km, if the body lasts

For me waiting for a reliable PHEV might be a long wait, when the first ones come out they'll struggle. A mate just took delivery of a brand new top end Merc FEV 4WD, his summary after 3 months, "Piece of crap, I want my money back".

You pay all that money, and it's a lot like $180K, and the thing breaks down and is off the road for a week at a time twice in the first 3 months. No genuine local support, technicians coming in from OS, so he's gone back to diesel.

I'm not sure if it's better to wait for Hydrogen 4WD if you want to go green, it's already working reliably in buses and trucks, you just need more filling options to appear and they will eventually.

I’m hearing from non Australian ev owners that battery degradation is minimal and they are expecting the batteries to outlast the car itself.
Sure, only time will tell but I wouldn’t want a ice petrol with 300,000km+ but these ev owners believe they’ll be getting 600-1000000km, if the body lasts

Care to elaborate on piece of crap?

If I ever buy another vehicle in my life I will probably strongly consider an EV. As long as my present ICE vehicle keeps going then I'll probably settle for that. At my present  rate of distance covered per year I should be OK.

No big outback trips planned Cookie?

Inverse has a good exploration of EV battery life and replacement costs based on actual data:

https://www.inverse.com/innovation/tesla-battery-life-replacement-cost

The site has many other objective EV articles.

A genuine alternative to EVs?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-01-29/toyota-hydrogen-cars-future-electric-vehicles-uptake-challenges/103390084?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web

I hope Toyota perseveres ... and the petrochemical industry gets on board to bring down the cost of producing hydrogen.

I think this is where Kruddlers argument is most important.  Which way is the future?  Odds are the car industry doesnt know.

The one thing that the car industry generally agrees on is that driverless vehicles are the future.  To be honest, I hope so.   There is an element of me first selfishness that has pervaded the roads for the last 10 years, where people are seemingly oblivious to driver etiquette and it all results in line jumping, delays, accidents, and general traffic slowdown. 

I think this is where Kruddlers argument is most important.  Which way is the future?  Odds are the car industry doesnt know.

The one thing that the car industry generally agrees on is that driverless vehicles are the future.  To be honest, I hope so.   There is an element of me first selfishness that has pervaded the roads for the last 10 years, where people are seemingly oblivious to driver etiquette and it all results in line jumping, delays, accidents, and general traffic slowdown.

The debate reminds me of VHS vs Beta.....the latter was the superior technical product but VHS had the better marketing and won the day...

I referenced that the other day.

This is why the government needs to get involved and start their marketing campaign for Hydrogen cars now.....before its too late.

The government just needs to come in with heavy discounts on these, and heavier taxes on alternatives just to get it off the ground.....and then it will take off from there.

If they don't find a clean abundant alternative to lithium ion it won't be long before hydrogen fuel is cheaper.

The Government have thrown their efforts into passenger EV's with generous subsidies as you would know with leasing and I cant see them backing two horses in the same race in terms of supporting infrastructure especially with the lack/dwindling interest in Hydrogen in other parts of the world for passenger cars. Maybe they might get onboard for heavy transport, replacing Diesel vehicles where EV's are still unsuitable at this stage and then if proven in that area might be seen as an alternative in passenger vehicles as well but I doubt it.

You can back a horse, but you don't have to continue to back it if you can see it is no good.
As has been mentioned, lithium is somewhat of a temporary solution with the cost and rarity set to cause a while range of problems down the line.

Especially in this country, the wide open spaces and nothingness that envelopes most of it means the range of bevs simply doesn't work as well as it does oversees.  "Last fuel for 500km" is not an uncommon sign to see out bush. What hope to bevs have with that?

Using the most abundant element in the universe should be a no brainer.... but it seems you need a little bit of brains to see that, which excludes the majority of the decision makers in parliament

You are massively overstating the charging “issues”, a Tesla driver prior to xmas circumnavigated Australia in 10 days, he’s done it a couple of times, I think his previous record was 14 days or such.
The charging infrastructure is massively expanding and there certainly are not many 500km stretches of road without fuel left in Australia and quite a few ev are now more than capable of 500km.

OK, let me put it this way.

Go on a road trip. Go stop at one of those petrol stations on the highway that has a maccas and what not. Go look at how long those lines are for getting fuel. Work out how long it currently takes people to pull up, fuel up, and get moving. Say 5mins?

Now, if everyone driving a petrol/diesel car switches to BEVs, assuming they get the same distances as petrol/diesel by then. How long will it take them to get to 50%, 80% 100%? How long will all those backed up cars behind them have to wait now? If each station has a 30min charge time and even if that charge station has double the capacity of existing stations, peoples charge/wait time would balloon out while they are waiting for their spot....and obviously more time charging.
Stops would take say 6 times longer.....IF you could get a spot to begin with. If you are at capacity, you could be waiting hours to get a charging spot. This is what will happen with increasing takeup of BEVs. Not too mention the population and general traffic users will also continue to increase compounding the problem.

Currently there are not that many charging stations and not that many cars. However, if everybody who uses an ICE car now changed to BEV, the infastructure will need to increase to greater what it is now in these areas to get the same result. (wait times).

OR....
You go Hyrdrogen and none of the above is a problem. ;)

There's not going to be an instantaneous swap over from ICE to EV and the infrastructure could very well keep pace with demand.  It's likely that motels and other accommodation will offer overnight charging (which is better for battery life) if the demand is there.

Meanwhile, there are only about a dozen hydrogen refuelling stations across the nation.  That includes the one owned by Toyota in Melbourne, and that can only produce enough hydrogen about a dozen cars each day.  Swinburne and CSIRO have just built a $2.5M plant but our Governments are only spending $160M on hydrogen refuelling as opposed to $500M for EV charging infrastructure.  I guess that reflects current demand rather than future needs.

Toyota's Andrew Willis says a lack of refuelling infrastructure is holding up wider adoption of HICE vehicles (I just made that acronym up); "It's growing, but it's still limited. We can't introduce a car to market that you can't refuel. Refuelling is one of the key barriers to the growth in the [sales/leasing] volumes."

Toyota's refuelling station separates hydrogen from oxygen in water by electrolysis using its own solar generated electricity and electricity from the grid.  The hydrogen is stored as a gas at sub-zero temperatures and cars are refuelled with a nozzle similar to that used for LPG vehicles.  I'm not across the technology or the costs but I assume that it would be feasible to have similar but larger scale refuelling stations if not at every servo, then at all of those with the capacity to generate renewable electricity. Cheaper electricity is required to reduce the cost of hydrogen to an affordable amount.

Of the fleet of 52 zero-emission buses Victoria is trialling, two are powered by hydrogen fuel cells.  However, the hydrogen is "grey" as it is produced by burning natural gas rather than electricity from renewable sources.  Of course, brown coal and natural gas is still used to provide some of the electricity that's charging the EV buses.

OK, let me put it this way.

Go on a road trip. Go stop at one of those petrol stations on the highway that has a maccas and what not. Go look at how long those lines are for getting fuel. Work out how long it currently takes people to pull up, fuel up, and get moving. Say 5mins?

Now, if everyone driving a petrol/diesel car switches to BEVs, assuming they get the same distances as petrol/diesel by then. How long will it take them to get to 50%, 80% 100%? How long will all those backed up cars behind them have to wait now? If each station has a 30min charge time and even if that charge station has double the capacity of existing stations, peoples charge/wait time would balloon out while they are waiting for their spot....and obviously more time charging.
Stops would take say 6 times longer.....IF you could get a spot to begin with. If you are at capacity, you could be waiting hours to get a charging spot. This is what will happen with increasing takeup of BEVs. Not too mention the population and general traffic users will also continue to increase compounding the problem.

Currently there are not that many charging stations and not that many cars. However, if everybody who uses an ICE car now changed to BEV, the infastructure will need to increase to greater what it is now in these areas to get the same result. (wait times).

OR....
You go Hyrdrogen and none of the above is a problem. ;)

https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/used-electric-car-prices-fall-after-two-years-data-finds/

As the article said, its hard to make sense of those figures without more data, but there is a couple things seem to be at play.

People selling used EVs are taking longer to sell, and they are averaging a lot less value compared to the others. This to me suggests that these ones for sale are put up at an overinflated price, which is why they are not selling. They eventually have to drop the price to below what they'd expect, just to cut their losses. Which makes sense with the data as a possible reason.

However, it also states there is very limited data (thus supply) of used EVs on the market. That SHOULD mean that a lack of supply yields an increased in demand and thus drives prices up....not down.

Ultimately, the only scenario that makes sense is that people simply do not want used EVs. You which would think that it would have to be at least in part due to their 'scrap value' after 10 years when the battery life is suggested to be next to useless.
The people who can afford new cars don't keep cars until they die, they just churn them over and upgrade to the newer models every 2-3-4 years.
The people who can't afford new cars, want something that they can rely on for the long term. It appears EVs are not that and people are voted with their wallet.

For most Tesla buyers it's the hope of one day being chauffeured around, it has little to do with the environment, the environment is just an excuse!

Aside from a prius are there any other ev's old enough to be sold second hand?   I would have thought most ev owners would be "new" owners ergo very few would be for sale second hand and the ones that are would be "like new".

Either way I'd buy an ICE vehicle if you weren't sure.  They'll be here for 20 more years at least IMHO.

Aside from a prius are there any other ev's old enough to be sold second hand?   I would have thought most ev owners would be "new" owners ergo very few would be for sale second hand and the ones that are would be "like new".

Either way I'd buy an ICE vehicle if you weren't sure.  They'll be here for 20 more years at least IMHO.

In the USA the used EV market is also trivial, they tend to be scrapping EVs for parts as a more profitable option over reselling.

I presume that process is largely driven by Tesla putting a huge premium on genuine spare parts.

Who are you claiming is doing the scrapping ?

The US has been actively anti ev until Trump was kicked to the kerb, and by reports most of their ev (like Europe) are expensive and poor quality.
Really not sure why anyone would use ev and USA in the same sentence.

Does an ammonia powered car potentially run off urine?  😄

Jokes aside kruddler the first car of this type would be 5 plus years away.  At least one financed vehicle cycle away.

It shouldn't change what you do today.  I imagine that there will be am initiative to help get the last ICE car holders onto the next platform if it's required.  I also think that as petrol and diesel demand wanes the price of it here will drop, as the demand for it does unless they restrict supply to keep the price of it buoyant.

Nah i know its years away, i'm just hoping for some certainty in the future, whichever way it goes.

I think i've settled on the diesel Everest and i'll deal with the consequences later.

My worry is that cars depreciate in value enough as it is, i don't want something to depreciate to the point its just worth scrap, simply because new tech has made it obsolete almost overnight. As i said, i'm thinking 6+years into the future which is how long i expect to have this new car

The big problem is that the public as a whole is rather stupid

This is where governments are failing.

"Dont forget to like and subscribe" is about the most annoying phrase i've ever heard, and i hear it dozens of times a week courtesy of my kids watching youtube non-stop.

Krudd - can't blame the government for this. Parents are also responsible for education and what kids do during spare time.  Certainly not having a go at you or your parenting!

Governments fail because Politicians want to back a winner in a sprint race, and we've a Parliament full of lawyers who have no idea on the technology side of the debate, and almost zero interest in the long term.

Instead we need engineers or scientists, the UK is just starting to correct this at the moment, we need to do more here and faster. But we have to get the engineers and scientists up to speed on dealing with the public.

Over and over again I've witnessed Australian developed technologies fail to commercialise here, only to then head off-shore and become big things a decade later with the proceeds lost to our country. The concept of a loss leader is completely foreign to our small minded politicians, they seem completely ignorant of global scale.

I think we make a mistake keeping them at arms length to investments, maybe we need to do the exact opposite and become like Germany were both politicians and employees profit from technology developments. They can actually take a vested interest in the projects they manage, it changes the dynamic.

Believe me, i try and limit youtube and the nonsense channels as much as i can, but i'm fighting with 1 arm behind my back as the missus is less strict on the matter.
Its not just from my kids though, its all my kids mates and friends kids etc.

Whilst I agree that Government and carmakers don’t care about the environment, government at least has the role of setting the agenda.
It shouldn’t be backing horses as such but mandating emissions etc.
The market can then move where they want, this will bring innovation.

Whilst I agree that Government and carmakers don’t care about the environment, government at least has the role of setting the agenda.
It shouldn’t be backing horses as such but mandating emissions etc.
The market can then move where they want, this will bring innovation.

The Germans are having second thoughts on EV's though and the head of BMW is leading the way.....Mr Zipse didnt tell anyone though he has just done a deal with GWM to supply batteries for his EV beamers....and he wasnt truthful about the lower end of the market either because he knows BYD have entered that part of the market and are starting to sell cars.
https://fortune.com/europe/2024/02/03/germany-electric-vehicle-sales-drop-carmakers-audi-vw-bmw/

There is the expectation that Governments both Fed and State have to help provide and approve infrastructure plus support the means to achieve emission targets by incentives. That does mean choosing a horse as a favourite and making a bet on the future and they have picked EV's. Eg they have pledged 75% of Govt vehicles will be EV vehicles of some description by end 2025
The NT Government are being generous unlike my home state Victoria who are giving residents SFA in comparison going by this information: https://www.novatedleaseaustralia.com.au/electric-cars/ev-incentives.
I believe Hydrogen fuel cell cars are only available to companies in Aus by lease and special order which is a shame which really only leaves EV's and their different varieties as the only option for ordinary punters unless you want to continue down the ICE path.
The Germans are having second thoughts on EV's though and the head of BMW is leading the way.....Mr Zipse didnt tell anyone though he has just done a deal with GWM to supply batteries for his EV beamers....and he wasnt truthful about the lower end of the market either because he knows BYD have entered that part of the market and are starting to sell cars.
https://fortune.com/europe/2024/02/03/germany-electric-vehicle-sales-drop-carmakers-audi-vw-bmw/

As the Toyota spokesperson (quoted in my post from a while back) said, you can’t import FCEVs when there’s no refuelling capacity.

Governments need to sit down with Toyota and Hyundai and agree on import numbers and infrastructure rollout.

Why would you bother with the hassle of an EV unless the pollution cap scare talk pushes you to buy one and clearly the resale value and plummeting prices of EV's and depreciation means your present EV probably wont ever pay you back the difference between your EV and its equivalent petrol guzzler.

I understand the environmental issues behind people's choice, and also at the moment I understand the removal of bowser shock but that might be transient based on what is happening in Europe and the UK.

What I don't get is that at the moment the political push seems to be to penalise drivers who don't or can't change rather than making the EV economically viable. By viable I mean attainable pricing for a vehicle that has a reasonable level of performance and longevity. In Australia we need more infrastructure for EV and other fuel alternatives, we will probably end up paying taxes anyway, we better push to get the services or we will pay taxes and have to fund the services privately.

Secondly, EVs inflict more wear and tear on roads than ICE vehicles, simply because weight matters and the typical EV is about 30% heavier than it's ICE equivalent. Yet at the moment only ICE vehicles foot the road tax bill mostly via tariffs, in effect all ICE drivers are subsidising EV.

People bag the old Fed and State infrastructure services, but good luck getting a modern corporate to build infrastructure in Australia. The lucky few close to big population densities or major thoroughfares might get it, but regional Australia will be abandoned, if fact it's already being abandoned on some service issues. Take a look at what is happening in regional Australia with gas, electricity and water service charges, and it's not going to get better!

Long term, if nuclear families follow the modern trend, which seems to be two adults with two adult kids staying in or returning to the nest for longer than before, homes will need 15Kw of SolarPV just to avoid drowning in energy charges. For me it could mean the missus, myself, two adult kids and perhaps even an in-law and or grandparent at the one address. Not expecting green or zero carbon energy initiates to deliver cheaper power I'll just organise for my pay packet to be redirected to Untied Energy. Might have to dig out the old unicycle, I think my helmet still has a few cable ties in place.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/design/the-big-reason-not-to-buy-an-ev-now/news-story/81d3d1cc4183b10763376841a75453b6

https://www.news.com.au/national/politics/pollution-caps-set-to-force-car-manufacturers-to-supply-low-emission-alternatives/news-story/d3987e20fa43a551b4d30261c55f1e6b

So all the cars that are popular, that are required as fleet vehicles (Rangers, hilux, everest, prado etc) are the issue. But there is no alternative for any of them right now to buy. So who cops it in the neck? The people that need them. While the car manufacturers collect.

Here is a bloke trying to understand what is going on in the UK / EU market.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZysvgm2_Aw
The interesting thing in this video was the discussion about battery degradation, I notice that degradation is worse in hot environments and by hot they mean regions that can have more than 5 consecutive days above 27°C! :o

I realise this guy is often talking a lot about high end cars, but cheaper models won't be generally be better. However, his figures would be ultra-relevant to 4WD EV.

Followed a brand new BYD EV down the freeway tonight, no tail lights, at first I flashed the headlights thinking they hadn't put he headlights on, but they were on ridiculously bright and blinding.

I received an email from my insurance broker today warning of the risk of fire from charging EVs.  It provided a list of common sense measures to follow when charging an EV but you certainly wouldn’t want to park your car in your garage or near your house while it’s charging.

The chance of a lithium battery fire has been a worry of mine since the technology became available but it’s rarely if ever discussed by those promoting EVs.  I wonder if the rapid take up of Chinese EVs by the Australian market prompted my insurance broker to speak out 🤔

Cheap but built to a price and refinement in terms of attention to detail and suitability for Aus standards and conditions wouldnt be a major consideration imho.
More Chinese brands on the way too with Geely, Smart(2nd time around), Xpeng and a couple more, cant see some of the well known auto brands surviving.
The USA have really gone hard on tariffs and ways to make it harder for Chinese brands to enter their local car market but we seem to be accepting of anyone willing to supply EV's.

As Dodge suggested sounds like a good way for insurance companies to cash in on EVs and make some extra money.
Been some horrific stories of EVs setting on fire including in ships that were shipping them and I am surprised there haven't been more I incidents at home where people do home charging and use some unsafe setups. I'm expecting a box to tick in my next home insurance policy that will have to be ticked relating to do you have a EV charger in use and a hefty premium rise accompanying that ticked box. I'm delaying buying an EV as long as possible ...

Same boat here, EB1. Not getting an EV until we absolutely must. Meanwhile, we've decided to sell our 'his and hers' cars for one car only... got my eyes on a used, low kms, V8 Lexus (under $40,000).

I believe there is a slight risk with the lithium ion, majority of ev use a different chemistry.
If you look at the fires per per 100k stats ice are way more risky.
Hybrids are the fire risk of “ev”
The other “ev” fire risk is toys, scooters etc. They get charged via all sorts of dodgy power leads, home installed gpos etc.

Traction battery fires are rare, but shiiteful when started.
The majority of the “ev fires” that the YouTubers promote are nothing of the sort and many are ice fires.
I’m in several ev groups researching and they are good at pulling these sorts of claims apart but as we can see the misinformation they spread is pervasive.

I believe there is a slight risk with the lithium ion, majority of ev use a different chemistry.

I saw figures a day or so ago where 80,000 litres of water were used to contain a recent EV fire.

I've been driving a Kia Sportage Hybrid for the past 5 weeks.

5.2L/100km (35% less than equivalent non-hybrid) and a full tank range of 860km.

I think I have the best of both worlds.......

I've been driving a Kia Sportage Hybrid for the past 5 weeks.

5.2L/100km (35% less than equivalent non-hybrid) and a full tank range of 860km.

I think I have the best of both worlds.......

I liked the look of the Turbo Diesel Sportage, think I read it did 5.4km on the hwy. Thought for less money than the Hybrid  it was the value pick in the Sportage range  being AWD and having a bit more grunt than the hybrid.

I was listening to the wireless the other day when the motoring program came on.  The usual expert (Toby Hagon I think) was talking about the influx of cheaper Chinese EVs and the impact they’re starting to have on car sales.

A talkback caller asked about the Chinese EVs being used for surveillance and intelligence gathering.  To my surprise, Toby agreed with the caller and proceeded to itemise the ways that modern vehicles could be used to collect information about their drivers and what gets caught on dash cams.  AI means that it’s now possible to process all of that data in the hope of gleaning something useful.

I’m sure that bad actors and other nefarious characters will be licking their lips in anticipation of finding out what I’m up to.  Good thing the 79 Series has bugger all in the way of electronics 😇

So if I get a bearing on all the info circulating on the internet, Chinese hardware and Russian websites are benign, but vaccines have microscopic integrated circuits in them that track our every mood and alter our thought process!

The biggest thing to worry about in regards to Apple, Microsoft, Google, Meta, and the most predictable trait, is that they sell out to the highest bigger without any regard to morality.

Putting hardware in place isn't about the public, it's about using the public as the distribution method. As you should well know working in IT, the car outside your office can be listening to devices on your network, and that widget / device on the accounts payable desk might not be yours to control. Some $2 novelty gadget the Billy bought Betty for Valentines Day!

We were recently alerted to stop using circuit boards manufactured in China, these are supposed to be bare boards without components, but security groups have found serial decode chips embedded within multilayer boards. You have to X-ray these boards to find them. Tiny chips capable of parroting away your data, and they cost a few cents per thousand devices, they are inconsequential like gains of sand.

Do you really think a country that spends billions of nuclear weapons or military hardware will blink at the trivial cost of adding millions of serial decode chips to devices distributed everywhere? Billions of such tiny devices would cost less than one warhead.

As you point out it's not just about military or politics, actually it's probably more about stealing IP, because that is the high cost high value proposition.

All nations would be doing this stuff given the opportunity, the naivety is thinking they wouldn't!

the arrogance is thinking they would. No car is listening to devices on my network, your car usually isn't connected to home wifi.  It might pair with your phone but when it's off that's that.

Data leads to information.
Information is power.

There may not be a purpose for it.....yet....but its better to have it and not need it, than vice versa.

Ev has nothing to do with anything.
The gov of China may or may not be wholesome and friendly but I’m sure I saw an article earlier this year on abc about data collection that Toyota was enjoying.
I don’t think it’s nesisarily China but any company with tech is doing their utmost to rape and pillage our data, what do they say about Google… you are the product…
I’d like to believe that Apple is better but to be honest…

Maybe, but you still need to store it.  The whole thing is economics, and all that changes is where your money ends up.  Call me a cynic but lets face it, these things are all not about your data.  If you dont want anyone to have your data, you have to go off grid.

I'm not worried about my data. I am one of 7 billion people in the world. No more important than anyone else. What do i need to be worried about?
Whatever might happen to me will happen to many more people. There is either something we can all worry about then, or its something that we will be powerless to stop.
Either way, worrying about it now ain't going to matter a damn, so i'll continue living my life.

Che sera sera.

99.9% of the information gathered may be useless but AI will ensure that anything useful will be identified.

I see Chinese brand Xiaomi is being accused by Porsche of copying it's Taycan design, who would have thunk it?
(https://preview.redd.it/xiaomi-su7-is-a-blatant-design-ripoff-of-the-taycan-v0-jzdl88zz2krc1.jpeg?auto=webp&s=a6a3dc8c5aaa73f6fec0fda28895c9995166b033)
Although, I have to wonder how many of the Taycan parts come out of China, Taiwan, Korea, etc., etc., in the first place, only to get a premium added to for having the Porsche name.

Rolex anyone?

The new power pricing plans may hit EV owners.  I understand that there will be a higher tariff when a lot of electricity is used, such as when you’re charging your EV,

JD Power annual survey on the reliability of Motor vehicles in the USA hasnt done much for EV sales with Tesla and Volvo's offshoot EV brand in Polestar being very problem ridden and leading the way in problems per 100 vehicles in the graph that appears further down the report..
https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2024-us-initial-quality-study-iqs
Only real surprise is Mazda performing badly and a usually unreliable entity in RAM proving to be the least buggy in terms of problems with vehicles. Hitlers choice of Transport in Volkswagen and its brother company Audi were very poor which is no real surprise to me and Lexus remains one of the most consistently good brands if you can afford to own one.
Overall I cant see these figures deterring Americans to stick with Gas Guzzling large utes/SUVs and it wont be making me rush out and buy an EV in any hurry.

I havent read that survey but I've read discussions of it EB.
The EV owners believe that the "unreliability issues" are NOT mechanical issues and instead are often minor software issues.
The EV owners point out that this survey is owner complaints rather than recall type situations, a bit like how anti vaxxers were listing every possible ailment known to man and saying it was a adverse vaxx reaction.
Their consensus was that its an anti EV beatup but they're happy EV owners, so who knows ?

The Chinese are showing they are doing it better and cheaper.

Nothing more nothing less.

I saw a video.  Wait until xiamoi get their cars here.

China "loses" money on a lot of exports, but it's only a loss if you pay all your bills.

China "loses" money on a lot of exports, but it's only a loss if you pay all your bills.

AI Advancements: Wall Street sees Tesla as an undervalued AI player, especially in the realm of self-driving technology.

For all the downturn in EV sales the Tesla share price has boomed as has Musks wealth and Id expect Tesla to expand more heavily into other areas with Trump giving them a helping hand.

I caught up with a mate over the holidays and he reminded me of a scary incident he had while "Driving" his Tesla, he had told me this before and I can't recall if I have already posted it here but it's worth repeating.

Basically, he was "Driving" his Tesla 100D to work when it entered a road work zone, I write "Driving" because it was apparently in some sort of automatic-mode of operation. At first it behaved correctly slowing for the 40kph road work signs, but on a sweeping gravel bend about half through the extended road work zone it suddenly accelerated to 80kph, he was quickly able to take control and slow it down but potentially things could have gone very badly given like most regional roads there was a large ditch / channel besides the road. He reported this to Tesla and apparently the problem was blamed on "Non-standard speed signs" for confusing the system software. However, the speed signs were the bog standard roadside frames they use pretty much all over the country.

Needless to say he has not used these features since, and it's a warning to anybody putting too much trust in automation which uses hardware and software designed and coded by people.

Interestingly, I've had a similar experience as a passenger in a mate's Tesla in Europe, which also sped up when it should have slowed. In Europe the feature has apparently been disabled because of a spate of similar events.

I think it would be wise for the industry to consider transport automation separately from the electrification, but it seems they are tied hand in hand.

To LP’s original thoughts about self driving, I’m also sceptical.
But I liken it to the relatively common Lane Departure Assist, which corrects what it believes is you drifting out of your lane by automatically applying braking force to the opposite wheels… nice theory.
I’ve had it apply itself a few times incorrectly and while not violent or aggressive I find it unwelcome.
Feature turned off 👍🏼
All new cars carry tech, it’s not an ev thing.

As for LP’s “points” about the millions of ev rotting away in field after field, I think you’ve been reading too many articles from Toyota.
After all Toyota has developed “game changing” solid state battery tech to be progressively rolled out over the next couple of years… just buy a new ice this year 😉
Talk to ev owners, as a rule they love them and would never again drive a stinking poisonous ice car.
Ask a reformed smoker what it’s like to enter a room full of smokers, foul air, your clothes and hair stink…

No, no we don’t want to keep developing ev, fresh air is overrated, let’s keep looking after the planet by burning dinosaurs… 🤦🏼‍♂️

I switch the LDA off too, drives me mad trying to recorrect even the slightest movement either way, new Cars get bought on the basis of extra safety as well as environmental concerns and you are made to feel guilty keeping your old unsafe low tech gas guzzler but how many drivers actually use and know what all the new tech is about in their wonder car?