Carlton Supporters Club

Brissy are just off the boil a bit.
We go close with half a side.
We might have 3/4 of a side for the trip.
Who knows.

Voss needs to send all of the players home for the next week, told not to come to the club unless they have a medical treatment etc.

They can report for duty on Monday 2nd September hopefully freshened up mentally & physically ready to train & plan hard all week to how they can bring the Lions down. 

Maybe they should spend the next 13 days running up and down sandhills…

The winner of the Carlton-Brisbane game plays the loser of the Swans-GWS game, which I'm safely assuming means traveling two weeks in a row if we win the EF. A tough ask, absent all other issues.

I just posted in the afl thread.
Week 3 we'll probably be in Adelaide.

Im happy we qualified and think cripps and weiters above everyone else deserved to play finals but the reality is we.meed these guys fit: TDK harry Charlie Mcgovern, williams and Cerra. The others are not vital. The above when fit can influence the result.

If and its a big if these blokes are fit Brisbane will be nervous playing us.

On the flip side if most of the above are still injured i would have preferred we missed.

I shouldn't look too far ahead but if we, say, got to a PF, there would likely be no games in Melbourne for us. Brisbane, somewhere in Sydney, and then Adelaide if Port beat Geelong week 1.

Anyway, let's stay at week 1 and worry about that first.

Young got done like a dinner multiple times by smaller lighter opponents, he should have brushed them aside and marked comfortably and couldn't, he was beaten by a fly! For a bloke his size he just doesn't have the strength or intensity and opposition know they can use a lightweight match up. He was better later when he started to intercept, but if he gets that wrong late in a game it's going to be costly.

Motlop had a shocker, he'd be an out for me, he needs a big pre-season to build more aerobic capacity and stop the daydreaming.

Someone needs to send a rocket up Saad, the chook running is becoming a huge problem. Opposition let him run right knowing he's got nothing to offer on that side, so they just block off the left and rely on him either kicking short or turning it over.

Young got done like a dinner multiple times by smaller lighter opponents, he should have brushed them aside and marked comfortably and couldn't, he was beaten by a fly! For a bloke his size he just doesn't have the strength or intensity and opposition know they can use a lightweight match up. He was better later when he started to intercept, but if he gets that wrong late in a game it's going to be costly.

Motlop had a shocker, he'd be an out for me, he needs a big pre-season to build more aerobic capacity and stop the daydreaming.

Someone needs to send a rocket up Saad, the chook running is becoming a huge problem. Opposition let him run right knowing he's got nothing to offer on that side, so they just block off the left and rely on him either kicking short or turning it over.

Young got done like a dinner multiple times by smaller lighter opponents, he should have brushed them aside and marked comfortably and couldn't, he was beaten by a fly! For a bloke his size he just doesn't have the strength or intensity and opposition know they can use a lightweight match up. He was better later when he started to intercept, but if he gets that wrong late in a game it's going to be costly.

Motlop had a shocker, he'd be an out for me, he needs a big pre-season to build more aerobic capacity and stop the daydreaming.

Someone needs to send a rocket up Saad, the chook running is becoming a huge problem. Opposition let him run right knowing he's got nothing to offer on that side, so they just block off the left and rely on him either kicking short or turning it over.

Young does okay on talls.

He played against the Lions in round zero and did well. He played against the Giants early in the year and stood Hogan (who resorted to punching him) for much of it.

INS: Charlie, Harry, McG, Martin, TDK, Zac

OUTS: Pitt, Orasio, Young, Cowan, Durdin, (Lord or Binns)

Tbh aside from Cerra and Doch, it’s probably the strongest team we’ve had all year.

Question marks still remain about TDKs availability.

Big no to Martin, we need to move on.

I wouldn't bring anyone back unless they are 100%. 

I know he breaks down and it’s hard to risk in a final. But same can be said about Orasio, and Durdin was no where near the level yesterday either.

I think Martin, if he plays 4 quarters, adds a bit of class that’s needed.

Would’ve preferred Fogarty but not available.

FWIW I’m all for trading Martin at seasons end. Or delisting.

Get in there Jack Martin!!!

He would more than likely break down in the first quarter.

Id only play 100% fit players and that excludes Martin, plus I wouldnt play Cerra either as its just been too long between games for him and Id stick with the kids in Lord, Binns and Moir. Id say there will be still be doubts on a few of our injured players and I wouldnt be panicked into picking TDK, Curnow, McKay, Williams, McGovern if there are any doubts.
One question thats needs to be answered is if TDK plays does Pittonet?.....logic might say No as Brisbane only run the one ruck but if Charlie or Harry doesnt play then is TDK required down forward leaving Pittonet to do most of the ruckwork?

Id only play 100% fit players and that excludes Martin, plus I wouldnt play Cerra either as its just been too long between games for him and Id stick with the kids in Lord, Binns and Moir. Id say there will be still be doubts on a few of our injured players and I wouldnt be panicked into picking TDK, Curnow, McKay, Williams, McGovern if there are any doubts.
One question thats needs to be answered is if TDK plays does Pittonet?.....logic might say No as Brisbane only run the one ruck but if Charlie or Harry doesnt play then is TDK required down forward leaving Pittonet to do most of the ruckwork?

One question thats needs to be answered is if TDK plays does Pittonet?.....logic might say No as Brisbane only run the one ruck but if Charlie or Harry doesnt play then is TDK required down forward leaving Pittonet to do most of the ruckwork?

Possibly.

Still give us more in that quarter than Durdin and Fantasia would in 4 quarters combined.

.......plus it would allow us to play a sub as cover, rather than have those 2 wasting space for the entire match.

Durdin was great last week, Fantasia was great yesterday.

Durdin was great last week, Fantasia was great yesterday.

Either you have a very low bar, or you don't understand what 'great' means, unless you are talking about comparisons to their usual output.

If you are talking about player compared to another player, than in no way shape or form were they 'great'.

If you go by the game day "first picked" principle, I'd say Fantasia is picked in the 16-22 range, and his output is commensurate with that. To my eyes, he's a low possession role player, and that's by design IMO. Still not understanding the hate.

Owies suspended for a week.

Liam Jones got a fine. WTF?

You're underselling fantasia.

His pick up and delivered to Kemp was our best forward entry of the day, his opportunist goal was good and early he started in the centre.

He has lots of tricks and he has nous.  Durdin was bad for 3 quarters but cracked in late and put his broken body on the line multiple times when the game was alive but fantasia did more to get us going in the 3rd.

Motlop.  The less said the better.  When people complain about Russell I point to the kids that aren't kicking on and say they still play and run with the strength and fitness of first year players.  Yes he's been injured and that's hurt motlop but you cannot be a cameo player and not be a tackling machine at worst.

Young can't play IMO.
So if we are short any key forwards, and TDK is fit, then he and Pitto both play.
If everyone is fit, than stick with just TDK and add plenty of legs around him.
Its a final. We need pressure.

I'd be more inclined to play someone like Moir instead of 2 rucks. The kid has an x-factor that could influence the game more in 5 minutes than a 2nd ruck will over the whole game.

Absolutely not!

Fantasia worked hard up the ground too. 

He's not in my best 23 but, at the moment, he's in my best available 23.

Durdin probably shouldn't have played.  I guess the MC was hoping he could reproduce the form he showed against the Eagles before he was chicken winged.  He did have a crack though, particularly in the last quarter.

Motlop started the year like a house on fire but the series of injuries he copped knocked the stuffing out of him.  I think he's a player who needs a very good fitness base to produce anywhere near his best footy.  Yes, he'll jag goals here and there but he's not providing the forward pressure we need.

At the moment it's Owies as our best small forward, followed by Fantasia and the rest hobbling behind.

Id only play 100% fit players and that excludes Martin, plus I wouldnt play Cerra either as its just been too long between games for him and Id stick with the kids in Lord, Binns and Moir. Id say there will be still be doubts on a few of our injured players and I wouldnt be panicked into picking TDK, Curnow, McKay, Williams, McGovern if there are any doubts.
One question thats needs to be answered is if TDK plays does Pittonet?.....logic might say No as Brisbane only run the one ruck but if Charlie or Harry doesnt play then is TDK required down forward leaving Pittonet to do most of the ruckwork?

Disagree.

People who praise Fantasia (best entry inside F50) need to look at how he gets his possessions and what happens when he gets them in traffic. Same with Durdin.
Compare that to Motlop.

Fantasia pounced on a loose ball (it was our free kick) and managed to kick it forward.
Smart play.
Right place right time.
Ultimately, didn't win a contest though.

Same thing when he got his goals. 2 of (the 4) of them were joe the goose types from memory. He isn't really creating much. He doesn't get the hard ball. He is an outside player.

Compare that with Motlop and even Moir. They make things happen. Motlop will take the hard ball, try a stiff arm, a spin and then either kick a goal or get tackled. The latter occurs and people lose their minds. He is only young, is learning the game and you can't hate on him for trying.
Moir first goal last week came when is a bear hug. Was smart enough to not grab posession, but still influence the game by kicking a goal.
Incidently, Moirs goal this week came from a chain that started from Motlop being front and square, getting the ball forward initially and then picking up and handballing to Acres while about to be tackled. Acres delivered to Moir in space.

FWIW...
Owies - 11 touches - 5 score involvements - 1.0 goal -1 goal assists - 2 tackles - 0 clearances - 4 turnovers
Fantasia - 10 touches - 4 score involvements - 1.0 goal - 2 goal assists - 2 tackles - 0 clearances - 5 turnovers
Motlop - 4 touches - 3 score involvements - 1.1 goals - 0 goal assists - 2 tackles - 1 clearance - 2 turnovers
Durdin - 4 touches - 2 score involvements - 0.1 goals - 0 goal assissts - 2 tackles - 0 clearances - 0 turnovers

1 was 'our best'
1 was 'great'
1 was 'the less said the better'
1 was 'injured'.

In terms of output, i'm not seeing a whole lot of difference between them.
They all had the same amount of tackles.
They all had shots on goal.
The all had score involvements.
Some got it more, and turned it over more

FWIW...
Owies - 11 touches - 5 score involvements - 1.0 goal -1 goal assists - 2 tackles - 0 clearances - 4 turnovers
Fantasia - 10 touches - 4 score involvements - 1.0 goal - 2 goal assists - 2 tackles - 0 clearances - 5 turnovers
Motlop - 4 touches - 3 score involvements - 1.1 goals - 0 goal assists - 2 tackles - 1 clearance - 2 turnovers
Durdin - 4 touches - 2 score involvements - 0.1 goals - 0 goal assissts - 2 tackles - 0 clearances - 0 turnovers

1 was 'our best'
1 was 'great'
1 was 'the less said the better'
1 was 'injured'.

In terms of output, i'm not seeing a whole lot of difference between them.
They all had the same amount of tackles.
They all had shots on goal.
The all had score involvements.
Some got it more, and turned it over more

Posters want to axe Fantasia when he plays a good game and even when he doesn't play at all.

Am I missing something?

Posters want to axe Fantasia when he plays a good game and even when he doesn't play at all.

Am I missing something?

throw the stat book out.  Motlop was garbage and has been all season.  Djc was being kind when he said he started the year like a house on fire.

Fantasia is outside, that's his go and like you said we lack team balance so we subbed off a meat and potatoes player in Carroll and brought on moir. 

For mine it was durdin or motlop out not a meat and potatoes player.  We'll never know if that was the right reign to pull but fantasia was not in that conversation at 3/4 time.

Do you have the GPS figures on them?

Posters want to axe Fantasia when he plays a good game and even when he doesn't play at all.

Am I missing something?

Motlop started the year like a house on fire but the series of injuries he copped knocked the stuffing out of him.  I think he's a player who needs a very good fitness base to produce anywhere near his best footy.  Yes, he'll jag goals here and there but he's not providing the forward pressure we need.

Only that haters gonna hate. There's no point looking for rational reasons, there are none. He's just this year's whipping boy, like many others before him.

I think Motlop and Durdin have a good future ahead of them but right now probably due to their injuries they are behind Owies, Fantasia, Fogarty.

If you remember last year we were dead and buried till Motlop and Durdin were replaced by Fogarty and Cunningham who brought the pressure.

He came back a better player after a stint in the VFL midfield. Think his first game back he was a late in after a warm up injury.

Including the PA game where he was basically plucked from the stands and kicked 4.

Disagree.

People who praise Fantasia (best entry inside F50) need to look at how he gets his possessions and what happens when he gets them in traffic. Same with Durdin.
Compare that to Motlop.

Fantasia pounced on a loose ball (it was our free kick) and managed to kick it forward.
Smart play.
Right place right time.
Ultimately, didn't win a contest though.

Same thing when he got his goals. 2 of (the 4) of them were joe the goose types from memory. He isn't really creating much. He doesn't get the hard ball. He is an outside player.

Compare that with Motlop and even Moir. They make things happen. Motlop will take the hard ball, try a stiff arm, a spin and then either kick a goal or get tackled. The latter occurs and people lose their minds. He is only young, is learning the game and you can't hate on him for trying.
Moir first goal last week came when is a bear hug. Was smart enough to not grab posession, but still influence the game by kicking a goal.
Incidently, Moirs goal this week came from a chain that started from Motlop being front and square, getting the ball forward initially and then picking up and handballing to Acres while about to be tackled. Acres delivered to Moir in space.

FWIW...
Owies - 11 touches - 5 score involvements - 1.0 goal -1 goal assists - 2 tackles - 0 clearances - 4 turnovers
Fantasia - 10 touches - 4 score involvements - 1.0 goal - 2 goal assists - 2 tackles - 0 clearances - 5 turnovers
Motlop - 4 touches - 3 score involvements - 1.1 goals - 0 goal assists - 2 tackles - 1 clearance - 2 turnovers
Durdin - 4 touches - 2 score involvements - 0.1 goals - 0 goal assissts - 2 tackles - 0 clearances - 0 turnovers

1 was 'our best'
1 was 'great'
1 was 'the less said the better'
1 was 'injured'.

In terms of output, i'm not seeing a whole lot of difference between them.
They all had the same amount of tackles.
They all had shots on goal.
The all had score involvements.
Some got it more, and turned it over more

Once again, statistics only provide part of the picture.  Since you've gone there, how many intercepts and rebound 50s did they each get?  Tackles inside 50? What about metres gained?

Fantasia and Owies worked hard all over the ground and were involved in many contests.  Durdin and Motlop weren't involved in the game anywhere near as much.

For all that, Owies is the only one I'd have in the team to play Brisbane.  Fantasia gets a game if Owies doesn't get off his suspension.

Neither Motlop or Durdin have progressed this year.
But both have had interrupted seasons
When they have played, it's probably because of necessity rather than readiness.
Judge them with a full pre-season behind them and some extended game time.

100% agree.   We underestimate how much having no pre-season can impact a player

I'd have Moir in the starting team. The kid has X factor and everything he has done has been  class. He is pacy and hard running.  He is the future.

The rumour is that docherty is in line for a recall next game and is in full training.

Just in time.  He's probably the one who helps us in two positions at once. 

Can Voss play? Tackled a car thief this morning apparently.

Can Voss play? Tackled a car thief this morning apparently.

I thought the same thing when I read it.

reckon there's one pretty sore and sorry car thief getting around Melbourne today

Probably threw a few sneaky rib ticklers in

Reckon he would have loved it!

Would hate a scrap Vossy ay?

Voss is all smiles, humour and reasonableness until you get into a competition with him.

Voss is all smiles, humour and reasonableness until you get into a competition with him.

Supposedly responsible for the greatest on-the-mark sledge of all time - brother Brett, playing for St Kilda, was lining up for goal and Vossy was on the mark.  As he was about to kick, Vossy yelled 'my dad f***ed your mum last night!'

The reason i bring up 'the stats sheet' is because i disagree with peoples opinions on how 'good' Fantasia is, has been, ever will be.

We can get into a "No he's not" vs "Yes he is" argument,
OR
I can bring something new to the table.

I don't need stats to form an opinion.
I use stats to back up my opinion.

Motlop being 'garbage' all season is funny.
I did a like for like comparison of averages between Motlop and Fantasia and Motlop has him covered in almost every single stat.....and there is like 40 stats.
So if Motlop is garbage, what is the level below garbage because thats where Fantasia sits.

On the basis of this season, Fantasia has outperformed durdin and motlop. 

Supposedly responsible for the greatest on-the-mark sledge of all time - brother Brett, playing for St Kilda, was lining up for goal and Vossy was on the mark.  As he was about to kick, Vossy yelled 'my dad f***ed your mum last night!'

 ;D

An opinion.

An unbiased view. Click the below for head to head comparison.
You will need to change from 'career' to '2024...'
You can change the area the stats look at, scoring/defence/possessions etc.
Fantasia v Motlop (https://www.afl.com.au/stats/compare?category=Key+Stats&seasonId=62&roundId=-1&roundNumber=0&sortColumn=dreamTeamPoints&sortDirection=descending&positions=All&teams=All&benchmarking=false&dataType=totals&playerOneId=CD_I296334&playerTwoId=CD_I1017700)

Motlop has him covered.

Fantasia is 'above average' in just 1 stat. Goal assists.
Fantasia is 'below average' or 'average' in every other stat....and there is over 40 of them.

Motlop is 'above average' in 10 stats. Some better than others.
Motlop is 'below average' or 'average' in the rest.

If you add Goal assists and goals together, they both average 1.5 goal (or goal assists) a game, so they generate the same amount of scoring each. Just so happens that Fantasia gets more assists and Motlop gets more goals, but they are equivalent.

People talk about Fantasias pressure as to why he is in the side.
Motlop has him beaten in all pressure stat averages this year, Spoils, tackles, TI50, pressure acts (although Fantasia has more defensive half pressure acts, he has less pressure acts overall)

nope.  I watch footy.  I've seen their output.  I've seen their lack of output. 

Like I said, no two kicks are the same.  No two handballs the same.  No two goals are the same.


Motlop has played 6 games.  6.  How many of them as sub? 

Fantasia has played 14.  Been subbed off and played as sub in multiple.

Go average out their time on ground percentages and compare their stats again.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=4&pid1=6970&fid1=S&playerStatus2=A&tid2=4&pid2=3968&fid2=S&type=A



Here's a site that will do it for you.  The ones in bold under orazios side tell you which was the greater number.

Both off a low base, but one has done more than the other off less average game time per game.

I know about footywire and was going to post the exact same thing but decided against it.
Mainly for a couple reasons.
1. AFL site compares against all AFL players playing similar positions. That is, all our small forwards are essentially underperforming.
2. Given how equal or equally bad they are, you should ALWAYS go the younger option as that is where the upside is.

Also ask why Fantasia has lower game time. He has been used as the sub, and he has been subbed out because he has been poor. Not sure you want to use that in a positive light.
But 'watching football' and 'knowing their (lack of) output', you're aware of that already.

statistically speaking who had the better season off less game time?

Regarding subs and game time I'll simply point out that motlop didn't get near the seniors until the players were well and truly breaking down, and maybe just maybe, stats aren't actually supporting your opinion without adding age as a subjective vote splitter.  The fact is, the stats have highlighted that orazio has been better than you thought, even though both are "below average".

No he hasn't been better than i thought. He has been 'below average'. Which when you recruit a 28yo, is not good enough.
Thats why he has been used subbed off 4 times this year...and started sub once.
Apparantly he played 'great' this week though.
He had 10 touches.
He had 5 turnovers.
But lets celebrate how great he was by showing a 1minute highlights clip.....which shows the same highlights from 4 different angles to pad out that 1 minute.

Not buying it.

4 turnovers but let's not let the stats get in the way shall we.

Jesse is no where near it

but has the most upside and body built for AFL,

5 according to AFL stats.

Motlop was.never going to play well this year given he lost too much of the season. He was good when it mattered last year, though. Especially late. As for Fantasia, he needed a year under his belt after so long out  He will be better next year for us. Both struggled this year for different reasons and will be much better in 2025.

I'd have neither in our first final but depends on who is available too.

Zac and Martin should take their spot

Either way I'll be there to see it.  Just bought our tickets for the game.

Win or lose, I'll see another Carlton final.  Haven't missed one since 2011. 😀

First glance it's a giant 'No!'
You would be reluctant to play Martin...for the obvious reasons.
But have Zac and Martin ever played forward at the same time?
It would be a bit of a headache for a defence with McKay and Curnow there as well.

It really is an all or nothing game for us...so maybe you roll the dice and hope both Williams and Martin can finish a game.

Question: If Port lose week 1 v Geel, do they play at home in Adelaide week 2?

Question: If Port lose week 1 v Geel, do they play at home in Adelaide week 2?

I missed them both last year. First one I booked a trip to Adelaide before our streak started and the second one only had standing room tickets and my father in law can't stand for that long.

I will go to Sydney if we win.

Won't be seeing any this year unless its the GF though.

First glance it's a giant 'No!'
You would be reluctant to play Martin...for the obvious reasons.
But have Zac and Martin ever played forward at the same time?
It would be a bit of a headache for a defence with McKay and Curnow there as well.

It really is an all or nothing game for us...so maybe you roll the dice and hope both Williams and Martin can finish a game.

Kemp has demonstrated he is a forward. Why would you move him into defence? Martin is not physically reliable, why would you play him? Since Young has played we have kept WCE to four goals and St.Kilda to eleven, we have struggled against tall forwards all year, why would you not play him. McGovern is always a worry physically and Young can take the centre square rucking duties when required.
I think Moir, Lord, Binns and Owies won't play, hopefully McKay,  McGovern, Curnow and Williams will play. Cerra, Docherty, Martin and TDK would have to demonstrate they can get through a game. Boyd won't be ready for a couple of weeks I believe.

Kemp has demonstrated he is a forward. Why would you move him into defence? Martin is not physically reliable, why would you play him? Since Young has played we have kept WCE to four goals and St.Kilda to eleven, we have struggled against tall forwards all year, why would you not play him. McGovern is always a worry physically and Young can take the centre square rucking duties when required.
I think Moir, Lord, Binns and Owies won't play, hopefully McKay,  McGovern, Curnow and Williams will play. Cerra, Docherty, Martin and TDK would have to demonstrate they can get through a game. Boyd won't be ready for a couple of weeks I believe.

Kemp has demonstrated he is a forward. Why would you move him into defence? Martin is not physically reliable, why would you play him? Since Young has played we have kept WCE to four goals and St.Kilda to eleven, we have struggled against tall forwards all year, why would you not play him. McGovern is always a worry physically and Young can take the centre square rucking duties when required.
I think Moir, Lord, Binns and Owies won't play, hopefully McKay,  McGovern, Curnow and Williams will play. Cerra, Docherty, Martin and TDK would have to demonstrate they can get through a game. Boyd won't be ready for a couple of weeks I believe.

To me Lord, Binns and Moir (as sub only) have earned their right to play. They are fit, unlike others we are likely to go and select. I only have 4 coming back, Harry, Charlie, Zac and Gov. I was blokes fit and in match condition, not misses a big chuck of the year with injury issues. West Coast won the 2018 GF with 6 of their best blokes out. What they did do was go in with a fit side that ran the game right out.

Not playing a bloke that has had 3 knee recos and not played since March, especially in a final, as good as Doc is. The fact he has done 3 makes me think he can be susceptible, especially with just 6 months off. Might be exciting that he might be ready but one needs to be practical. Be absolute hell to pay if he did it again. Too risky.

To me Lord, Binns and Moir (as sub only) have earned their right to play. They are fit, unlike others we are likely to go and select. I only have 4 coming back, Harry, Charlie, Zac and Gov. I was blokes fit and in match condition, not misses a big chuck of the year with injury issues. West Coast won the 2018 GF with 6 of their best blokes out. What they did do was go in with a fit side that ran the game right out.

Not playing a bloke that has had 3 knee recos and not played since March, especially in a final, as good as Doc is. The fact he has done 3 makes me think he can be susceptible, especially with just 6 months off. Might be exciting that he might be ready but one needs to be practical. Be absolute hell to pay if he did it again. Too risky.

I hope the MC adopts, strictly, the finals selection template: only play blokes who are match fit, healthy and ready to go. No selecting blokes on reputations who aren't cherry ripe, or very close to it.

Agree the kids deserve to play and we need fit and able players only vs Brisbane not ones who haven't played for a while or who are not reliable enough to last 4 quarters on a regular basis.

CHARLIE CURNOW (ankle)

Most of the training attention from Carlton fans settled on the hulking forward who is endeavouring to overcome a nagging ankle injury. He wore a special ankle monitor/guard and refrained from kicking on his left foot. Did most of the drills but didn’t really extend himself. But Blues insiders are confident he will play

TBH, I have never seen Charlie use his left foot to kick a footy. Doesn't mean he hasn't but...

Reading that it seems McKay, McGovern and Williams are in. Curnow and Docherty are a chance.
Cerra, TDK and Martin won't play.

CHARLIE CURNOW (ankle)

Most of the training attention from Carlton fans settled on the hulking forward who is endeavouring to overcome a nagging ankle injury. He wore a special ankle monitor/guard and refrained from kicking on his left foot. Did most of the drills but didn’t really extend himself. But Blues insiders are confident he will play

Doc is too inspirational and too good of a player in big moments not to play.
Probably the Scottish stubborness in him. But big moment players is what we need. Thats what will win games if its close.

I agree with all this but I dont think the club will be brave enough to keep Lord Binns and Moir. As for he ins, I am not convinced Gov can be trusted to a. come and not get re-injured and b. do a defensive job. What I have seen from him (when he as played) late this season is a selfish footballer who is very quick to berate team mates for his own pathetic defensives efforts. If he plays and Young doesn't, I fear their two big forwards will have their way with us. If they dont kick bags, they will bring their small fwds into the game.

I didn't think Boyd was available?

I was at the training session, and Charlie was going about 20% throttle at best.  Can't help thinking (given where Charlie grabbed his ankle when he got injured against Hawthorn) that he has a syndesmosis issue and they do not go away quickly.  Cannot afford to play him if he is still struggling. 
Interesting also that Owies took no part in the session - stayed inside with the Rehab boys.

Charlie will always demand the opposition key backman and could keep Harris Andrews occupied as a decoy or spoiler.  A McKay / Kemp forward set up would not set the fear of God into the Lions.

We'll find out how broken our blokes are when they have their post season operations.

My team would be something like this....

FB - Cowan - Weitering - Newman
HB - Saad - Young - McGovern
C - Acres - Cripps - O.Hollands
HF - Kemp - McKay - Williams
FF - Motlop - Curnow - E. Hollands
R - Pittonet - Hewett - Walsh
Int - Kennedy - Docherty - Boyd - Cincotta
Sub - Moir

Our goal should still be to win the premiership. There is no point playing Charlie this week if the ankle is still bothering him. If we win he still has to back it up the following week and then another 2 matches after that.

That's the tricky part isn't it.
We don't know if we have one week left... or four.

Do we throw everything into the first game....or do we take a conservative approach with some players, in the hope they'll be even more ready in the weeks ahead.

It' s a really difficult situation for selectors.

Injured players...do they need another week?
Players who have been carrying injuries, but still playing...will they hold up?
Players coming back for injuries...will it take more than a game or two to hit peak form?
Young players untried in the heat of finals battle...will they be found wanting under finals pressure?
Docherty...could be an inspiration...could have the opposite effect if he is injured again.

It's a scenario that could have our selectors open to heavy criticism...or praise, if they get it right.
The thing is that they're probably the group with the best knowledge of current player status to make those decisions.

Our goal should still be to win the premiership. There is no point playing Charlie this week if the ankle is still bothering him. If we win he still has to back it up the following week and then another 2 matches after that.

Finals
- Win a final interstate - Last time NEVER

Leaving aside the Navy Blue bias, does anyone really think we can win this ? I can't see it myself. Too many things against us IMO.

Leaving aside the Navy Blue bias, does anyone really think we can win this ? I can't see it myself. Too many things against us IMO.

Well, I certainly hope the two of you are right.

Leaving aside the Navy Blue bias, does anyone really think we can win this ? I can't see it myself. Too many things against us IMO.

Agree 100% on the comment on C & H playing too deep, and leave Kemp down forward to mix things up.

IMHO Ithink Moir is something special. Play him. He is still under the radar / underestimated and therefore not respected yet. No better time to announce himself and do some damage.

Ageee 100% play Moir in the starting line-up.
Forget Martin, too risky

Ageee 100% play Moir in the starting line-up.
Forget Martin, too risky

No chance, we couldn't beat StKilda.

I'm confident

No chance, we couldn't beat StKilda.

No chance, we couldn't beat StKilda.

Docherty's value in elevating the whole team around him cannot be underestimated.

Given the way he moved at training, I say do it!

Can't help but feel equally pumped and sick about this!

Yes, same here. Conflicted about Docherty's inclusion.

If his knee goes again is it Andrew Russell's fault?

If Doc ends up playing, he will have played his last 3 games against the same team at the same ground.
Prelim
Opening round
Elimination final???

It will mean that Docherty’s most recent three games will all come against his old side Brisbane at the Gabba: the 2023 preliminary final, 2024 Opening Round and now the 2024 elimination final.

Big inclusion - big moment player that rarely loses his one on ones that can add flexibility through the midfield.

Its like if Cripps came back from a long term injury and is fit to play would you play him ? To my eye Doc. Weitering, Charlie, Walsh is no different

Can't help but feel equally pumped and sick about this!

Players with finals experience
Carlton - 29
Sydney - 28
Brisbane - 27
Port Adelaide - 26
Greater Western Sydney - 26
Western Bulldogs - 24
Geelong - 23
Hawthorn - 13

If Doc does a knee again, it’s equally likely to be at training as it is to be during a game.

The graft is not going to get any stronger or weaker and his quadriceps and hamstrings will be as strong as they can get.

Fingers crossed though 🤞

voss and co have to come up with different game plan especially f50 entry like i have been saying for 2 yrs we need to change the LONG f.... BOMB to our fwds that is our downfall ,opposition just set up and away they go

voss and co have to come up with different game plan especially f50 entry like i have been saying for 2 yrs we need to change the LONG f.... BOMB to our fwds that is our downfall ,opposition just set up and away they go

Alot more stress on it during a game, even more so a final. I didn't want him in until next year. He's done 3 knees already, just 6 months since the last one, so he can be a little prone to them, hasn't played in 6 months, then coming in for a big final. Surely we can all see the risk.

Wouldn't be like Carlton to rush blokes back only for repeat injuries this year, surely.

I was more worried about him getting injured when his teammates set on him in the pool.

If Doc’s rehab has been as thorough and carefully planned as reported, he’ll be as good to go now as he would be next season.  He is prone to ACLs and there’s nothing you can do about that.  He could tear it again slipping on wet tiles or putting the bins out.

Every team in the competition kicks long bombs to their forwards.  When you’ve got two of the best marks in your forward line, you’d be crazy not to kick the ball to their advantage.

Remember the Acres mark and goal to beat Melbourne?  If Doc hadn’t bombed the ball in we would have lost the game.

There's the long kick to position when it is open after quick movement, or the long bomb as a last resort to the forward covered by half the defence.

St Kilda lead the league for marks inside 50 after Max King got injured.

Ok, fresh from Hoyne on SEN. Here is what we need to do to have a chance. When Lions face teams that apply pressure over the 180 rating, they only win 40% of the time. We have exceeded this rating in 20 out of our 23 games. 1 ÷ 1 =: 2  We're home!  Go Blues.

OK folks, so here is the VERY early oil I have on selection.
Ins : Cerra, Doc, McGovern, McKay and  ..... Martin (as the sub)
Outs : Binns, Carroll, Lord, Moir & Owies.
Charlie couldn't get up nor could TDK and  Williams
Disappointing that none of the young blokes get a run and somehow Motlop and Fantasia survive. Needless to say if we lose the MC will cop a fair bit of criticism and rightfully so.

OK folks, so here is the VERY early oil I have on selection.
Ins : Cerra, Doc, McGovern, McKay and  ..... Martin (as the sub)
Outs : Binns, Carroll, Lord, Moir & Owies.
Charlie couldn't get up nor could TDK and  Williams
Disappointing that none of the young blokes get a run and somehow Motlop and Fantasia survive. Needless to say if we lose the MC will cop a fair bit of criticism and rightfully so.

That doesn't gel with the training report MBB posted; Cerra and Martin couldn't train on Saturday  :-\

I was more worried about him getting injured when his teammates set on him in the pool.

If Doc’s rehab has been as thorough and carefully planned as reported, he’ll be as good to go now as he would be next season.  He is prone to ACLs and there’s nothing you can do about that.  He could tear it again slipping on wet tiles or putting the bins out.

The important training session was yesterday not Sat.

1 ÷ 1 = 1
Well there goes the game then!

I heard McGovern and Curnow didn't take part in yesterday's.

I heard McGovern and Curnow didn't take part in yesterday's.

Normally these mjnd games dont work but in this case with this many players the Lions will have no idea who is playing.

If Doc is fit to play, he has to start, so why not as a defensive forward on Zorko? Moir as sub?

Five years since I was last here, Bolton was coach, the Judge was Pres and was it Trigg as CEO????

OK folks, so here is the VERY early oil I have on selection.
Ins : Cerra, Doc, McGovern, McKay and  ..... Martin (as the sub)
Outs : Binns, Carroll, Lord, Moir & Owies.
Charlie couldn't get up nor could TDK and  Williams
Disappointing that none of the young blokes get a run and somehow Motlop and Fantasia survive. Needless to say if we lose the MC will cop a fair bit of criticism and rightfully so.

If Doc is fit to play, he has to start, so why not as a defensive forward on Zorko? Moir as sub?

Five years since I was last here, Bolton was coach, the Judge was Pres and was it Trigg as CEO????

Cerra Gov and Martin are very risky given their soft tissue woes.

Be very typical of us if correct. Half fit players with a name in the side ahead of younger blokes, who are performing and gave us some run that we lacked.

OK folks, so here is the VERY early oil I have on selection.
Ins : Cerra, Doc, McGovern, McKay and  ..... Martin (as the sub)
Outs : Binns, Carroll, Lord, Moir & Owies.
Charlie couldn't get up nor could TDK and  Williams
Disappointing that none of the young blokes get a run and somehow Motlop and Fantasia survive. Needless to say if we lose the MC will cop a fair bit of criticism and rightfully so.

OK folks, so here is the VERY early oil I have on selection.
Ins : Cerra, Doc, McGovern, McKay and  ..... Martin (as the sub)
Outs : Binns, Carroll, Lord, Moir & Owies.
Charlie couldn't get up nor could TDK and  Williams
Disappointing that none of the young blokes get a run and somehow Motlop and Fantasia survive. Needless to say if we lose the MC will cop a fair bit of criticism and rightfully so.

How many young blokes with only a few games of experience do you bring into a cut throat final against the battle hardened Lions? We may think selections are risky but I am sure the team that's selected will be ready to go to give us the bestt chance of winning.
Just on finals experience, I saw a photo yesterday that showed we have the most number of players (29) with finals experience which I assume meant on our list. Next were
Swans 28
Lions 27
Port and GWS 26
WB 24
Geel 23
Haw 12

The 3 that are performing...Lord, Binns with Moir sub. Always puck blokes who are fit and in form. Rule 101!

That has to be better than bringing in those that have missed huge chunks of the year and won't be near match ready for a final. Only way you win is with a fit side out there. Otherwise we get run over. Our slump started bringing in half fit, out of form players and killed our run.

People are forgetting you need match fit players and Brisbane are at full strength on their quick home deck.

People are forgetting you need match fit players and Brisbane are at full strength on their quick home deck.

I bet even the MC doesn't know our final side as yet. Especially considering there's another training run tomorrow!

My real concern is all the marketing and attention given to the sentimentality of Doc's selection. A wonderful feel good and good news story, and no doubt will lift the lads, momentarily... but... how much of a distraction might it also be? Apologies for being a wet blanket, but there's a very real risk associated with a bloke who hasn't played in heat for so many months.

Hopefully the coaching group is more than aware of the risk of distraction and the risk of limited exposure to game day pressure and expectations for Doc. After five minutes on the field, it's no longer about the romance but about hard-nosed delivery of the job at hand; the harsh reality of the huge task ahead of Doc and the rest of us.

Brisvegas is the red hot favourite for this game, for good reasons. Reality. We're the deserved underdogs.

Selection will be a real balancing act. You can't risk taking too many injury prone blokes into a final. There are in form kids who've delivered over the past few games and deserve inclusion, and a number of blokes lacking match fitness who are susceptible to breaking down, regardless of reputation.

Whilst they might be raging favourite, Bris have a poor record against top 10 teams. Saw something this morning on it, cant find it.

The important training session was yesterday not Sat.

I'm far from giving up on us, in fact I'm strangely optimistic, but a lot of things need to go right. And it starts with the MC. I strongly believe our culture is superior to Brisvegas, but we need right people on the paddock on Saturday night... blokes who can and will last for 120 minutes of relentless pressure; blokes whose bodies are up for the challenge... we know their hearts and minds are up for it.

Right now, I have faith the MC will pick the side that will give us the best chance of winning and they will have reasons and data to back the selections (they we simply aren't privy to). Of course after the fact (ie hindsight) it wont stop us from professing to have known better.

I hope you're right, but my faith in the MC has been sorely tested to the point where I don't have much left

Thats my point Prof, our faith is tested but its on face value without knowing all the facts and data the MC have in front them.

Thats my point Prof, our faith is tested but its on face value without knowing all the facts and data the MC have in front them.

They played Charlie Curnow who was in doubt the whole week  against Hawthorn and he could barely move before his ankle completely gave way.
They clearly made a mistake there.

If we lose, the MC got in wrong.  If we win, the MC got it wrong because we should have won by more ... and that's despite the MC knowing just a tad more about the players' fitness, durability, likely match ups, etc.

According to SEN, McKay, Curnow, De Koning, Martin, Williams, McGovern, Cerra and Docherty all went full bore at yesterday's match sim and should all be available for selection.  A conundrum for the MC, but a good one to have.

Yes, mixed reports about Charlie that's all. Some say def in, some say def out. Might be named and will be given until just before the  warm up I reckon.

Thats my point Prof, our faith is tested but its on face value without knowing all the facts and data the MC have in front them.

If Doc is selected and played, he would surely struggle with match fitness. I hope we don’t break him.

I was thinking along the same lines Mantis but Doc is always meticulous with his preparation and is probably one of our fittest players … and he won’t have the niggles that most players will have now.

i got a plan harry /charlie play as the dummies ,we go straight to kemp

I'm sure we can miss Kemp just as easily as we miss Harry or Charlie.

Now come on, Spotted One... I think you missed the spirit of Pew2's joke... I got a giggle.

So... If we settled on no more than 4 changes, who comes in and who goes out?

Right now, I have faith the MC will pick the side that will give us the best chance of winning and they will have reasons and data to back the selections (that we simply aren't privy to). Of course after the fact (ie hindsight) it wont stop us from professing to have known better.

He has been called in to fulfill a specific role.......what that role is, is the $1m question!

Just watched Clarkson previewing our game on YouTube.

Nutshell: to win we'd have to sustain a high level of pressure. That is what would prevent Brisvegas playing their one wood... their high level of uncontested possession... keeping the aggott out of their opponents hands. 100% concur with this. We always look our most dangerous with relentless pressure... hunting.

Like most pundits Clarkson is most concerned with the number of changes we might very well make. He agrees that Doc's inclusion will have a positive effect on team spirit... but... too many changes could very well be too disruptive to continuity. And we may well have the ability to make as many as 8 changes - just crazy (my word).

So... If we settled on no more than 4 changes, who comes in and who goes out?

Listen to Hoyne, Bris only win 40% of games when the oppo applies pressure greater than 180. Despite our slump, our pressure rating is very high (cant remember the numbers). Apply the pressure and this mob will wilt, nothing surer.

Pressure rating has been good. Only fell away when we played Hawthorn but ran out of bodies on that one.

Brisbane are a really good ball moving team and need to break even at least at clearances or they will cut as apart.

Docherty.

So we know he ruptured his acl.  We also know that he played a quarter with it already ruptured.  He didn't go off right away remember?

Where did it tear?  Was hanging on by a thread?  Fully torn right through the middle?  Higher lower?  Closer further from the knee?  The medicos tend to describe a rupture as a full tear but they wouldn't have known until they operated and may have elected to keep that a bit quiet. 

So knowing this what's the recovery and rehab like? 

So if everything goes perfectly, with no post op complications, it is not unreasonable to have full motion back in the knee after 4 to 8 weeks and to be able to resume running in 12 to 16 weeks.  That's about 4 months.  Doch was playing his first game of the season off a full pre season and to quote him was in great condition when it happened.  These days with prp, and stem cell therapy they can accelerate the healing process and using the skinny side of the above guidance its not unreasonable for him to have been back in strength and conditioning training by the end of July being conservative and allowing for 16 weeks. That means he's spent minimum 4 weeks getting miles  in the legs and testing it out.

Given our teams on field fortunes I'd trust him to be in better nick than almost 10 of the players going out this weekend.  The timing of the injury is important.  Jsos did his before pre season. Docherty after he had already done one.  Was probably in really good nick when it happened and won't have the muscle issues the rest have.

Docherty.

So we know he ruptured his acl.  We also know that he played a quarter with it already ruptured.  He didn't go off right away remember?

Where did it tear?  Was hanging on by a thread?  Fully torn right through the middle?  Higher lower?  Closer further from the knee?   The medicos tend to describe a rupture as a full tear but they wouldn't have known until they operated and may have elected to keep that a bit quiet. 

So knowing this what's the recovery and rehab like? 

So if everything goes perfectly, with no post op complications, it is not unreasonable to have full motion back in the knee after 4 to 8 weeks and to be able to resume running in 12 to 16 weeks.  That's about 4 months.  Doch was playing his first game of the season off a full pre season and to quote him was in great condition when it happened.  These days with prp, and stem cell therapy they can accelerate the healing process and using the skinny side of the above guidance its not unreasonable for him to have been back in strength and conditioning training by the end of July being conservative and allowing for 16 weeks. That means he's spent minimum 4 weeks getting miles  in the legs and testing it out.

Given our teams on field fortunes I'd trust him to be in better nick than almost 10 of the players going out this weekend.   The timing of the injury is important.  Jsos did his before pre season. Docherty after he had already done one.  Was probably in really good nick when it happened and won't have the muscle issues the rest have.

@Thryleon

Doc was back running at the end of May.  His first run back on Princes Park got a fair bit of coverage.

He began non-contact training in early July and has been taking part in full contact training for the last six weeks.

all good djc.  I'm comfortable.  I was trying to show why anyone worried about him is worried about the strength and conditioning of the wrong player.

Selection day  ;D

Debate will rage strongly tonight. ::)  :D

You can almost bet though, that the team selected tonight won't be the team that takes the field Saturday, and there will be a late change or two. ;)

And a couple of them will be re-injured by half time..

Wash your mouth out EB! 😇

Let's hope I'm wrong DJ but too many ins with questions marks doesn't make me comfortable. Strangely I think Sam Docherty will probably see the game out better than most...

Sounds like Charlie is pretty doubtful.

Give him another week and he'll be good to go in next week's semi.

If When we win against the Lions and progress to the next final. Need to get over this hurdle first. Not too confident in this game.

If we win against the Lions and progress to the next final. Need to get over this hurdle first. Not too confident in this game.

I reckon there will be a late change or 2 with Cincotta and another coming in

Cerra with his hammy issues is a big gamble and two rucks a bit mystifying.
Can't see TDK playing....

Cerra with his hammy issues is a big gamble and two rucks a bit mystifying.
Can't see TDK playing....

Playing 2 rucks is ok because one of them is a key forward in charlies absense.

Dropping Cincotta and playing a spud like Fantasia has got me stuffed.
Ditto Durdin (and to a lesser extent IMO Motlop)
Dropping Moir and playing Fantasia has me stuffed.
I hope we have Fantasia as the sub. I somehow think Kemp will get that role though.

I don't think we should be playing a team that has....
Williams, Durdin, Motlop and Fantasia,
Too many potential, non-contributors. History will tell you that at least one of them will have 6 or less touches and very little else influence over the game.
You could play Cincotta in a similar role who would give you lockdown options, kick as many goals, give you the same defensive pressure and twice as many touches.

Apart from that....i think its a decent side, albeit a little bit different from the norm, but circumstances dictate that.

Playing 2 rucks is ok because one of them is a key forward in charlies absense.

Dropping Cincotta and playing a spud like Fantasia has got me stuffed.
Ditto Durdin (and to a lesser extent IMO Motlop)
Dropping Moir and playing Fantasia has me stuffed.
I hope we have Fantasia as the sub. I somehow think Kemp will get that role though.

I don't think we should be playing a team that has....
Williams, Durdin, Motlop and Fantasia,
Too many potential, non-contributors. History will tell you that at least one of them will have 6 or less touches and very little else influence over the game.
You could play Cincotta in a similar role who would give you lockdown options, kick as many goals, give you the same defensive pressure and twice as many touches.

Apart from that....i think its a decent side, albeit a little bit different from the norm, but circumstances dictate that.

Expect a late change or two.

2 rucks is fine as Curnow is out.

How the f is Cinc out and Orasio stays FMD

orazio is a swim against the tide player. 

Cincotta should be in but durdin and motlop are the ones counting their lucky stars

Curnow flew to Brisbane (1 day earlier) according to news broadcast over here. So who knows !!

Kemp on the interchange.  Say it ain't so...

Be very surpriswed if there is not.
I don't think DeKoning will play.
I don't think Cerra will play
I think Cincotta will.

Blasphemy, ............................... stone him, stone him!

Who have thunk it, selection subject to circumstance and opposition! :o

Of course, if we lose, it's due to two rucks! ::)

An "ITK" elsewhere has claimed that the sub is 'surprising'!?! Could it be Kemp? Wouldn't that freak out some people here????

I think TDKs best role is ruck and has never convinced me he is a KP forward.
I get we have nothing else but if he does play it would be mainly ruck for me and I'd have Kennedy at FF.

Kemp should start.  All our big men should.

If we are going to win this, it's all going to be about the form of weitering, McKay, cripps, kennedy hewitt and Walsh and the rest just need to lift to the occasion.

Problem I have is cerra and durdin.  To a lesser extent motlop but he's been a flash in the pan or performer and not really even that this season.

Cerra's best is good enough to be a point of difference but we haven't seen it since last year before finals.

In theory, Kemp is a good sub.

However, when you have the small forwards we have who will be non-contributors, you'd be better off starting kemp.....or cincotta...or anyone.

Overall i think our team balance is about right, i just dislike our forwardline/bench.

Brisbane beat us last year because of their smalls, not their talls. We helped lose the game by going in too tall last time.
We need to pressure their smalls/runners We need to hold them accountable. Someone like Cincotta does exactly that.

In theory, Kemp is a good sub.

However, when you have the small forwards we have who will be non-contributors, you'd be better off starting kemp.....or cincotta...or anyone.

Overall i think our team balance is about right, i just dislike our forwardline/bench.

Brisbane beat us last year because of their smalls, not their talls. We helped lose the game by going in too tall last time.
We need to pressure their smalls/runners We need to hold them accountable. Someone like Cincotta does exactly that.

we did not go in too tall last time. 

Put our talls against them it was even.  Most of our smalls were garbage last year.

Too tall and/or too slow and/or not enough pressure on the ball

Pittonet+TDK
Weitering, McGovern, marchbank (instead of kemp!)
McKay, Charlie

Cripps
Cerra
Hewett
Kennedy as the sub

Thats 11 players who wouldn't be catching 90% of players in the AFL who played in the prelim.

This year is Young for Marchbank (which is a better matchup - Marchy was undersized without a matchup)
TDK plays forward instead of Charlie. So we are 1 tall less, but better matchups height wise.
Also Kennedy as a sub/small last year, is more of a tall this year, allowing us to play a true small in his place.

I still think we are too slow and would ideally swap out Cerra who is slow, but moreso is unfit and will become slower for Cincotta.

check the stats.  Forget the rucks for moment, but tell me, why were our smalls no where near the footy? 

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/2023/031920230923.html

Must be because they were tired because of the 0 extra talls we carried. 

Let's face it we lost at the selection table dropping owies.

The reality is cripps didn't play well and that was that.

Not sure what fans what. We are in a do or die interstate final against last years runners up. Do you really think the likes of lord carroll moir binns can get the job done?
Yes we are risking heaps by ‘maybe’ bringing in underdone players or players with long histories of soft tissue injuries but the reality is we fans dont ever really know the condition of injured players and how ready they actuallt are and our only chance of causing an upset is if our best players perform close to their best not running with 4 kids with less then 10 games.

Its our only chance and i understand the need to take risks to have a tiny chance to cause an upset.

Cincotta or all of Durdin/Motlop/Fantasia ?
Cincotta or Cerra?

Its not about kids.

What about the other 19-20 selections or just focus on 1-2 you dont agree with.
Surely they know a hell of a lot more then us.

What about the other 19-20 selections or just focus on 1-2 you dont agree with.
Surely they know a hell of a lot more then us.

Not sure what fans what. We are in a do or die interstate final against last years runners up. Do you really think the likes of lord carroll moir binns can get the job done?
Yes we are risking heaps by ‘maybe’ bringing in underdone players or players with long histories of soft tissue injuries but the reality is we fans dont ever really know the condition of injured players and how ready they actuallt are and our only chance of causing an upset is if our best players perform close to their best not running with 4 kids with less then 10 games.

Its our only chance and i understand the need to take risks to have a tiny chance to cause an upset.

What about the other 19-20 selections or just focus on 1-2 you dont agree with.
Surely they know a hell of a lot more then us.

Not sure what you are attempting to show me.
We had 12 players with 12 touches or less.

We were smashed all over the ground.
They ran around us like we were witches hats.
We burst out of the gates and barely got a score afterwards

We couldn't catch anything that night.

Cincotta or all of Durdin/Motlop/Fantasia ?
Cincotta or Cerra?

Its not about kids.

reckon the week off played a bigger factor, but the point is that our talls vs theirs weren't the issue. 

You know what the issue is?  A small forward like who contributes 6 possession from 70% game time not hitting the scoreboard laying 0 tackles.  In itself not an issue, but when your other smalls have similar numbers, that's the problem.

That's why the rest struggle.  Not because of the talls who have typical tall stats.  You play a man down (sometimes 2) carrying a player like that.  Last week against the saints it happened with durdin, motlop, Fantasia and owies and we only lost by a couple of points because combined they gave us a 2 player game. 

That's the problem.  Not the talls.  We carry no more than others, and don't tell me the other teams have blistering run in their mids.  They all have a few one paced players who aren't quick but the only ones who have non contributors end up putting in a performance like port did tonight.

Lord, Binns, Moir can because they are fit and in form. Not as if we are playing 23 of those types. They would blend in alot better with the others we have in than non match fit players. No risks needed. Just a fit football team. Our slump started playing half fit, out of form bigger names as you well know. Right now, it is panic button selection.

I prefer Cincotta, Lord, Binns and Moir to Durdin, Motlop and Fantasia and a half fit Cerra.

The bottom line is that it’s not too difficult to select a decent combination of 20 players.  It’s the last three that present a bit of a conundrum.

For the record. Cincotta averages .5 goals a game.
...and is playing a negating role more often than not, sometimes from the backline.

Fantasia averages 0.57 goals.
Durdin 0.7.

We lose nothing by playing him instead of one of our other small forwards imo.

In fact, we lose a hell of a lot playing Cincotta as a forward unless he has a shut down role on an opposition forward.  However, Williams is better in that role and Docherty would be too, if that is the task he is set.

Cincotta should come into the team if Cerra or McGovern but he can’t be reinvented as a small forward or link up player.  That’s not his bag.

Lose a hell of a lot?

Like what exactly?

It's not scoring.
It's not possessions.
It's not discipline.
It's not versatility.

Forget about the statistics.  It's about being able to play the position and fulfil the role.  Cincotta is primarily a defender who has shown that he can carry out a run with role on opposition mids or playmakers.  As often happens with those roles, his opponents are intent on getting away form him and don't defend.  He has been opportunistic enough to punish them on the score board in five games this season.

Cincotta doesn't have the the small forward's skill set and he doesn't apply forward pressure, put blocks on for our leading forwards or crumb the ball when it comes to the ground as well as they do.  He also doesn't have the ability to provide the continuous link up between our forwards and defenders that is Fantasia's role.  Zac Williams has the defensive half forward role that Cincotta held down for a couple of games and he has proved to be more effective, and more versatile.

Unless there's a run with role or a vacant spot for a medium defender, Cincotta misses out.

Lord, Binns, Moir can because they are fit and in form. Not as if we are playing 23 of those types. They would blend in alot better with the others we have in than non match fit players. No risks needed. Just a fit football team. Our slump started playing half fit, out of form bigger names as you well know. Right now, it is panic button selection.

I prefer Cincotta, Lord, Binns and Moir to Durdin, Motlop and Fantasia and a half fit Cerra.

I thought Cincotta would have tagged Zorko, obviously Williams has that role now.

Exactly what I also figured. Cinc is the perfect match-up for Zorko... who is a beast and launches so many attacks. And intimidates forward lines. He'd feast on Williams... or Motlop... or Durdin... Plus, Cinc would give Zorko something else to think about - he's quick over the grass, strong and dangerous around goals.

So you prefer to take Moir, with less than 60 mins of AFL experience, into a cut throat final at the Gabba than Cerra? Think about what you write sometimes.

Marion Pickett says hi 👋

How old was Pickett again?

Moir has x factor and is hard to match up due to his height and agility.
I've been pro Orazio but would select Moir before him.
Plus it's a final in Brisbane with what 45000 spectators, not really as intimidating as a final at the G in front of 95000?

Fair enough, we'll see I guess. I personally think he would get mauled (right now).

Yes, as a Sub he might make sense, but even that is limited he can't usefully cover D50 issues. Owies being out has cost us some flexibility because Owies runs square to square.

Secondly, this is one shot, we are the underdogs, and a rookie mistake might end the season. If we still had the double chance it would be different, but now we need as many experienced cool heads as we can muster and trust the plan whatever it may be!

No matter what it's going to be tough, we are without 2 of our 3 main avenues to goal for the biggest game of the season, time for the MC to get inventive.

No one in the football world is giving us a chance, and rightly so IMO. I think we need to be realistic. We stumbled into finals on the back of many weeks of average form. We've had several injuries, and for this game lots of changes and question marks over the players selected, against a team who rarely loses on their home deck. None of which suggest a win IMO.

And no one would have thought the team who finished 2nd would have put together such an abysmal performance (at home no less) in the first week of finals. The 8 is a lot more even than people think.

I like the side, although Cinc is very unlucky.
Think the MC had no choice but to play all the guys coming back from injury, got to remember the end game here is to win a flag, not just an elimination final. Need to win 4 games to do that and our best chance of that is to get games in to the guys who have been out for long periods with injuries and have our best possible 22 on the field for the GF.
Have to roll the dice.

Yes, as a Sub he might make sense, but even that is limited he can't usefully cover D50 issues. Owies being out has cost us some flexibility because Owies runs square to square.

Secondly, this is one shot, we are the underdogs, and a rookie mistake might end the season. If we still had the double chance it would be different, but now we need as many experienced cool heads as we can muster and trust the plan whatever it may be!

No matter what it's going to be tough, we are without 2 of our 3 main avenues to goal for the biggest game of the season, time for the MC to get inventive.

I like the side, although Cinc is very unlucky.
Think the MC had no choice but to play all the guys coming back from injury, got to remember the end game here is to win a flag, not just an elimination final. Need to win 4 games to do that and our best chance of that is to get games in to the guys who have been out for long periods with injuries and have our best possible 22 on the field for the GF.
Have to roll the dice.

So you prefer to take Moir, with less than 60 mins of AFL experience, into a cut throat final at the Gabba than Cerra? Think about what you write sometimes.

I look at the other sides and think that we have pissed away a golden opportunity to have a serious shot at pinching a flag this year.  Chances like that come around very rarely.

Dunno...it's Kenny Hinkley coaching Port in the finals, not a great combo for success in recent seasons. I picked the Cats when I saw the teams and read how well the Cats play the ground.
Think Brisbane deserve to be odds on favourites and it's going to take a miracle to win...

I would have had Cincotta playing on Neale...

My point was that all teams can have a bad one, Port had a stinker of monumental proportions. They were completely off, it happens.

To get to a GF you have to win the EF first. You picks a fit side to win. No good picking underdone players and losing.

Brisbane have won 10 of their last 12 games. Had they kicked straight against the Giants that would read 11 of their last 12. Their form is solid.

Durdin seems to represent a greater risk than those returning from injury; he is only one hard tackle away from another shoulder dislocation.

So you prefer to take Moir, with less than 60 mins of AFL experience, into a cut throat final at the Gabba than Cerra? Think about what you write sometimes.

moir no.  But look at the cats. They dropped tuohy and played a vfl player chomping at the bit.  Did a job and did it well. 

No one in the football world is giving us a chance, and rightly so IMO. I think we need to be realistic. We stumbled into finals on the back of many weeks of average form. We've had several injuries, and for this game lots of changes and question marks over the players selected, against a team who rarely loses on their home deck. None of which suggest a win IMO.

Dropped? He was the sub. If we did that there'd be blood on here saying we are gifting games. 2E is finished, shouldn't be playing.

he's no where near finished even though hes retiring this year.  Past his best but he's played alright this season but the point I was making is:

That irrespective of where you see them they brought in mannagh and he starred.  Him vs tuohy one has runs on the board the other is a mature age vfl recruit.

That's us playing orazio as sub, and starting cincotta imho (but I'd be leaving durdin out).

Either way I'm anticipating that the 3 emergencies all come in and cerra and tdk don't get up for this one either small durdin also missing.

Looks cooked to me

Looked after no 1 at all times that bloke

Geelong is demonstrating the benefits of a well-performing VFL team with Hawkins, Guthrie and De Koning all running out with their Magoos. Our fringe players and those looking to prove their fitness and form have just got training.

Pressure around the ground - manic-like.
Then pressure on the score board.
Should do the trick.  ;)

How the f is Cinc out and Orasio stays FMD

As is my want and somewhat irritating to some, I look through a psychological lens at our changes for this game and ask myself one simple question... how confident in their bodies to go flat out for 120 minutes will Doc, Williams, Cerra, Fantasia and Gov be? And that is central to my questioning of these changes. We can reasonably assume that Cinc, Lord and Binns would be confident in their bodies to go hard for 120 minutes. But I get the romance of Doc and the idea of going into the game with your biggest names.

Rumour has it that Kennedys partner may give birth shortly and he might be an out.

As is my want and somewhat irritating to some, I look through a psychological lens at our changes for this game and ask myself one simple question... how confident in their bodies to go flat out for 120 minutes will Doc, Williams, Cerra, Fantasia and Gov be? And that is central to my questioning of these changes. We can reasonably assume that Cinc, Lord and Binns would be confident in their bodies to go hard for 120 minutes. But I get the romance of Doc and the idea of going into the game with your biggest names.

As is my want and somewhat irritating to some, I look through a psychological lens at our changes for this game and ask myself one simple question... how confident in their bodies to go flat out for 120 minutes will Doc, Williams, Cerra, Fantasia and Gov be? And that is central to my questioning of these changes. We can reasonably assume that Cinc, Lord and Binns would be confident in their bodies to go hard for 120 minutes. But I get the romance of Doc and the idea of going into the game with your biggest names.

I reckon Durdin is possibly the highest risk. His shoulder pops out when the breeze changes direction. Otherwise Cerra who is out of form and not fit.

Overall, i think we've gone 'safe' with selections.
Safe is a relative term, and i use it in terms of attempting to put our best side out there.....and hoping they hold up.

It would be much braver to leave out some of the 'regulars' and push the kids a bit more, but that would cop more backlash from the larger AFL world....including blues fans.

I've already mentioned, but i think we've gone too many underperforming small forwards and would mich rather sacrifice one or 2 of them for the unabashed enthusiasm of a kid or 2.
I thought Moir as sub would be perfect.
Lord i think is a little undersized, but taking the place of a small forward means we don't lose much.

If we are to win this game, i expect some breakout games from our small forwards to get us over the line.
That currently is our weakest point, and its the area that needs to lift the most.

I reckon Durdin is possibly the highest risk. His shoulder pops out when the breeze changes direction. Otherwise Cerra who is out of form and not fit.

Overall, i think we've gone 'safe' with selections.
Safe is a relative term, and i use it in terms of attempting to put our best side out there.....and hoping they hold up.

It would be much braver to leave out some of the 'regulars' and push the kids a bit more, but that would cop more backlash from the larger AFL world....including blues fans.

I've already mentioned, but i think we've gone too many underperforming small forwards and would mich rather sacrifice one or 2 of them for the unabashed enthusiasm of a kid or 2.
I thought Moir as sub would be perfect.
Lord i think is a little undersized, but taking the place of a small forward means we don't lose much.

If we are to win this game, i expect some breakout games from our small forwards to get us over the line.
That currently is our weakest point, and its the area that needs to lift the most.

I reckon Durdin is possibly the highest risk. His shoulder pops out when the breeze changes direction. Otherwise Cerra who is out of form and not fit.

Overall, i think we've gone 'safe' with selections.
Safe is a relative term, and i use it in terms of attempting to put our best side out there.....and hoping they hold up.

It would be much braver to leave out some of the 'regulars' and push the kids a bit more, but that would cop more backlash from the larger AFL world....including blues fans.

I've already mentioned, but i think we've gone too many underperforming small forwards and would mich rather sacrifice one or 2 of them for the unabashed enthusiasm of a kid or 2.
I thought Moir as sub would be perfect.
Lord i think is a little undersized, but taking the place of a small forward means we don't lose much.

If we are to win this game, i expect some breakout games from our small forwards to get us over the line.
That currently is our weakest point, and its the area that needs to lift the most.

TDK sub

TDK sub

Not sure that makes sense, it may be he's not as fit as the MC suggest, and if so that's a wrong selection!

TDK sub

TDK sub

We the first ever to use a ruck as a sub.

Wonder if that means, bar injury, we plan to sub Pitto half way through the 3rd qtr. Other than that, I'm am baffled. I like a runner as sub to give us run with fresh legs.

Not sure I can work that out? If he's fit, he plays?

So, who's the tall forward option when Harry rucks for short periods?

It might've worked against WCE and Saints, but hard to see us manufacturing enough goals. And if Neale gets off the chain, we'll be scratching our heads and asking the question about why Cincotta wasn't in the team to try to tag him.

It's a roll the dice game. Death or glory stuff. We're taking risks. A few of them I suspect.
There would have been considerable thought about the fitness of these guys. Some it was deemed weren't worth the risk. Others it was probably considered that their 80% offered a but more than a youngsters 100%.
While they may not make sense to us  the selectors have a lot more information than we have.
It may not come off, but it's arguably the best side we can present given all the info.

We the first ever to use a ruck as a sub.

Wonder if that means, bar injury, we plan to sub Pitto half way through the 3rd qtr. Other than that, I'm am baffled. I like a runner as sub to give us run with fresh legs.

I think a few clubs tried it in the first couple games the sub rule came in.
Didn't last long because it doesn't work.

Just like Hawthorn used to do with McEvoy when they were winning premierships

Great post. Spot on. Cant win unless we put it all on line and if that means playing our best players even if not 100% so be it.

The season is dead if we lose this and playing guys with under 20 games esp is not going to get the win.

TDK probably not match fit and probably a quarter to half a game is all we could expect, Cincotta being left out is more strange to me when the Lions have players who need tagging like Neale, McCluggage, Ashcroft etc.

If Cerra does a hammy I'll spew!! Even when he came back the last time his form was terrible so wouldn't have thought he deserved a game on the back of any great form. Would've rather gone with Carroll or Lord.

Who knows, we might all be made to look stupid in about two and a half hours......but highly unlikely IMHO.