Princes Park => Robert Heatley Stand => Topic started by: DJC on November 18, 2024, 03:57:23 pm
Title: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 18, 2024, 03:57:23 pm
Regular small forward, Matt Owies, regular midfielder/forward/second ruck, Matt Kennedy, and occasional midfielder, Jack Carroll are gone. Our other outgoing players played so little footy in 2024 that their departures are inconsequential.
After Zac Williams successfully made the transition to the forward line, he will be working on his forward craft this pre-season. It seems that Brodie Kemp will continue as a forward after doing OK as a stand in for Charlie. Conversely, Jack Silvagni is said to be training for a role as a defender in 2025. Where will Mitch McGovern play?
Then we've got Nick Haynes looking for a spot in the backline. Will Lewis Young do enough over the pre-season to win back his key defender role?
Where will Doc play after his remarkable return from his knee reconstruction? Will Ashton Moir, Cooper Lord and Jaxon Binns get regular games? Draft pick #3 will be looking to break into the senior team, as will Billy Wilson.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 18, 2024, 05:20:32 pm
FB Saad Weitering Cowan HB Silvagni McGovern Newman C Acres Cripps O Hollands HF Moir McKay Fogarty FF Williams Curnow Durdin Fol De Koning Hewitt Walsh Int Docherty E Hollands Lord Boyd Sub Cottrell Fantasia Motlop will be fighting Durdin and Williams for the small fwd spots Kemp and Moir will be fighting for that HF spot Haynes and SOS will be fighting for that HB spot Spine picks itself Wings are owned by Blacres and Ollie Newman owns one HBF Saady owns one back pocket Id pick Cowan over Boyd. No room for two rucks anymore
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Milhanna13 on November 19, 2024, 10:25:39 am
FB Saad Weitering Cowan HB Silvagni McGovern Newman C Acres Cripps O Hollands HF Moir McKay Fogarty FF Williams Curnow Durdin Fol De Koning Hewitt Walsh Int Docherty E Hollands Lord Boyd Sub Cottrell Fantasia Motlop will be fighting Durdin and Williams for the small fwd spots Kemp and Moir will be fighting for that HF spot Haynes and SOS will be fighting for that HB spot Spine picks itself Wings are owned by Blacres and Ollie Newman owns one HBF Saady owns one back pocket Id pick Cowan over Boyd. No room for two rucks anymore
Looks pretty good - Just missing Cez (have him in for Lord?) - Id have Motlop over Durds - Pick 3 will be pushing for a spot - Back ups (not mentioned) - Cincotta, BInns, Young, Wilson, Pitto, Fantasia
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 19, 2024, 10:41:31 am
What about Kemp in his new role as a tall forward?
I think that we have to play a third tall forward to ease the defensive pressure on Harry and Charlie.
I think I’d squeeze Cerra and Motlop into the 22 and I’d probably play Young at CHB.
It’s nice to have several genuine options for most positions.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: pinot on November 19, 2024, 03:22:57 pm
The old school formations doesnt make sense in todays game
You can have eight defenders and three forwards or six midfield
We play a defence first system so we play with 7-8 defenders two deep and five are intercept/rebound only one or two come up the ground towards sroppages.
Its so complicated these days
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 19, 2024, 04:06:49 pm
The old school formations doesnt make sense in todays game
You can have eight defenders and three forwards or six midfield
We play a defence first system so we play with 7-8 defenders two deep and five are intercept/rebound only one or two come up the ground towards sroppages.
Its so complicated these days
6-6-6 makes the old school formations even more relevant than they were a decade ago. Of course, it's a different matter in general play.
If there's a stoppage in our backline, we'll have six defenders, two wingers and the centreman, the three followers and at least one half forward in or just outside of the defensive 50 ... and we're still losing those stoppages!
At the other end of the ground, our deepest players in transition could be defenders. When Acres kicked the winner against Melbourne in 2023, the three other players with him were De Koning, McGovern and Kemp; not a forward within cooee!
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: pinot on November 19, 2024, 06:17:46 pm
Team formation should be like English Premier league where they make sense and better view on tactics.
AFL is a bit behind the tactics eight ball imo.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Lods on November 19, 2024, 07:00:54 pm
What about Kemp in his new role as a tall forward?
I think that we have to play a third tall forward to ease the defensive pressure on Harry and Charlie.
We actually need to see Kemp as the third tall. For the three games he played at the end of the year he was the second tall in one, and the number one in two of them with Curnow and McKay both missing games.
He'd be a tough matchup for a third tall defender.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 19, 2024, 07:11:11 pm
We actually need to see Kemp as the third tall. For the three games he played at the end of the year he was the second tall in one, and the number one in two of them with Curnow and McKay both missing games.
He'd be a tough matchup for a third tall defender.
I suspect that Kemp will have more success as a third tall forward than he would if we persevered with him as our second tall defender. He is quick, agile and a very good mark and that should make him a very tough matchup for most third tall defenders. Of course, given the way our forward line functions, he will be the second tall forward for significant periods of the game.
Hopefully, after he does have a couple of games as a tall forward, it won't be a case of mugs to the backline.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 19, 2024, 07:29:05 pm
Looks pretty good - Just missing Cez (have him in for Lord?) - Id have Motlop over Durds - Pick 3 will be pushing for a spot - Back ups (not mentioned) - Cincotta, BInns, Young, Wilson, Pitto, Fantasia
Chez will fight George for a spot, he needs to get his body right first and foremost. Ive heard whispers he still isn't right. Vossy loves Cinc, will be interesting to see how he uses him (or fits him in)
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: kruddler on November 19, 2024, 08:48:21 pm
What about Kemp in his new role as a tall forward?
I think that we have to play a third tall forward to ease the defensive pressure on Harry and Charlie.
We actually need to see Kemp as the third tall. For the three games he played at the end of the year he was the second tall in one, and the number one in two of them with Curnow and McKay both missing games.
He'd be a tough matchup for a third tall defender.
I think Kemp is the utility we need.
Playing him allows us to use him back or forward....and frees us a 2nd ruck. If we use him forward it allows us to use Harry in the ruck when required while still keeping our shape. If used back he can give a chop out to one of our other players (impersonating a key defender?) isn't getting the job done
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 19, 2024, 09:44:46 pm
Interesting that no one rates Jack Silvagni as our 3rd tall forward and most want Kemp in that role. I think Jack is a more accomplished forward player and Kemp is more of a break glass type move forward player when you have injuries or need a change to provide a lift. Id also like to see Moir in that 3rd tall role and see what he offers, Im not even sure Kemp will be on the list next year and would see him as trade bait given we gave away our future picks for next seasons ND.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Lods on November 19, 2024, 11:49:16 pm
Interesting that no one rates Jack Silvagni as our 3rd tall forward and most want Kemp in that role. I think Jack is a more accomplished forward player and Kemp is more of a break glass type move forward player when you have injuries or need a change to provide a lift. Id also like to see Moir in that 3rd tall role and see what he offers, Im not even sure Kemp will be on the list next year and would see him as trade bait given we gave away our future picks for next seasons ND.
There's a bit of talk about Jack being 'groomed' as a defender. It may just be a bit of off-season speculation....but as Kruddler said regarding Kemp, they are both versatile and have potential to play a role both forward and back. It's the string to their bow that may save them come the end of next season when both are out of contract. If it works that both go OK, but we're struggling to fit the pair of them into the side, we might indeed have some useful trade currency.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 20, 2024, 02:12:34 am
Interesting that no one rates Jack Silvagni as our 3rd tall forward and most want Kemp in that role. I think Jack is a more accomplished forward player and Kemp is more of a break glass type move forward player when you have injuries or need a change to provide a lift. Id also like to see Moir in that 3rd tall role and see what he offers, Im not even sure Kemp will be on the list next year and would see him as trade bait given we gave away our future picks for next seasons ND.
The thing is that Jack is training as a defender this pre-season and whether we rate him as a forward or not is inconsequential.
For the record, I would prefer to see Jack playing in the forward line as he provides a point of difference to Charlie and Harry and is a decent key forward in his own right - and back up ruckman ::) . In a recent season - 2022 I think - Jack took more marks on the lead than any of our other players and he has serious footy smarts as well as a dash of mongrel.
Kemp has the attributes to be a reasonable third tall forward and won All-Australian selection at full forward as a junior. Apart from his forward cameo at the end of the season, Kemp has done OK as a forward in the VFL and I think that it is certainly worth giving him a shot as a forward. As for his future, he probably has as much chance of being on our list in 2026 as Jack does.
Moir would be slaughtered if he was played as third tall forward and he couldn't stand in for Harry or Charlie when they have a spell. He needs to play on a medium defender so that he can gain an edge with his marking and agility.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 20, 2024, 02:13:36 am
Interesting that no one rates Jack Silvagni as our 3rd tall forward and most want Kemp in that role. I think Jack is a more accomplished forward player and Kemp is more of a break glass type move forward player when you have injuries or need a change to provide a lift. Id also like to see Moir in that 3rd tall role and see what he offers, Im not even sure Kemp will be on the list next year and would see him as trade bait given we gave away our future picks for next seasons ND.
The thing is that Jack is training as a defender this pre-season and whether we rate him as a forward or not is inconsequential. Conversely, Kemp is training as a forward.
For the record, I would prefer to see Jack playing in the forward line as he provides a point of difference to Charlie and Harry and is a decent key forward in his own right - and back up ruckman ::) . In a recent season - 2022 I think - Jack took more marks on the lead than any of our other players and he has serious footy smarts as well as a dash of mongrel.
Kemp has the attributes to be a reasonable third tall forward and won All-Australian selection at full forward as a junior. Apart from his forward cameo at the end of the season, Kemp has done OK as a forward in the VFL and I think that it is certainly worth giving him a shot as a forward. As for his future, he probably has as much chance of being on our list in 2026 as Jack does.
Moir would be slaughtered if he was played as third tall forward and he couldn't stand in for Harry or Charlie when they have a spell. He needs to play on a medium defender so that he can gain an edge with his marking and agility.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 20, 2024, 10:13:48 am
Interesting that no one rates Jack Silvagni as our 3rd tall forward and most want Kemp in that role. I think Jack is a more accomplished forward player and Kemp is more of a break glass type move forward player when you have injuries or need a change to provide a lift. Id also like to see Moir in that 3rd tall role and see what he offers, Im not even sure Kemp will be on the list next year and would see him as trade bait given we gave away our future picks for next seasons ND.
The thing is that Jack is training as a defender this pre-season and whether we rate him as a forward or not is inconsequential.
For the record, I would prefer to see Jack playing in the forward line as he provides a point of difference to Charlie and Harry and is a decent key forward in his own right - and back up ruckman ::) . In a recent season - 2022 I think - Jack took more marks on the lead than any of our other players and he has serious footy smarts as well as a dash of mongrel.
Kemp has the attributes to be a reasonable third tall forward and won All-Australian selection at full forward as a junior. Apart from his forward cameo at the end of the season, Kemp has done OK as a forward in the VFL and I think that it is certainly worth giving him a shot as a forward. As for his future, he probably has as much chance of being on our list in 2026 as Jack does.
Moir would be slaughtered if he was played as third tall forward and he couldn't stand in for Harry or Charlie when they have a spell. He needs to play on a medium defender so that he can gain an edge with his marking and agility.
I see Moir as that Bayley Fritsch type not as a KP Forward.....if Charlie or Harry were injured/resting then you could try the Kemp move and of course Liam McMahon if drafted/rookied would be the direct replacement. Moir is essentially replacing Jack Martin in the team for me.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 20, 2024, 10:55:20 am
I see Moir as that Bayley Fritsch type not as a KP Forward.....if Charlie or Harry were injured/resting then you could try the Kemp move and of course Liam McMahon if drafted/rookied would be the direct replacement. Moir is essentially replacing Jack Martin in the team for me.
I would categorise Moir as an agile medium forward with the ability to out mark similar-sized defenders and, yes, very similar to Fritsch and Martin in the way he plays. Zac Williams plays in much the same way as a forward but is probably more opportunistic - probably because of his greater experience.
If Moir can extend his cameo performances to a whole game, and if Williams can stay on the park, we have the makings of a very potent forward line, regardless of who fills the third tall role. Assuming Charlie makes a full recovery from his ankle reconstruction of course.
We just need one of Motlop or C Durdin to stand up.
I would go with:
Motlop/Durdin Curnow Moir
Williams McKay Kemp/Silvagni
With E Hollands and Fogarty coming off the bench.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 20, 2024, 02:20:36 pm
I see Moir as that Bayley Fritsch type not as a KP Forward.....if Charlie or Harry were injured/resting then you could try the Kemp move and of course Liam McMahon if drafted/rookied would be the direct replacement. Moir is essentially replacing Jack Martin in the team for me.
I would categorise Moir as an agile medium forward with the ability to out mark similar-sized defenders and, yes, very similar to Fritsch and Martin in the way he plays. Zac Williams plays in much the same way as a forward but is probably more opportunistic - probably because of his greater experience.
If Moir can extend his cameo performances to a whole game, and if Williams can stay on the park, we have the makings of a very potent forward line, regardless of who fills the third tall role. Assuming Charlie makes a full recovery from his ankle reconstruction of course.
We just need one of Motlop or C Durdin to stand up.
I would go with:
Motlop/Durdin Curnow Moir
Williams McKay Kemp/Silvagni
With E Hollands and Fogarty coming off the bench.
E Hollands would be a starter for me every game, consistent goalkicker and handy backup 2nd string mid when needed. Durdin cant get the football and Id be going with Motlop and Williams as my smaller forwards with Fogarty my backup off the bench if those two were showing lazy defensive traits. Id be running Durdin in the twos with some stints up the ground and onball trying to get him more involved and his possession numbers up and if successful then consider him for senior opportunities. You just cant have a player averaging 4-6 possies a game no matter how many pressure acts they make imho.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 20, 2024, 02:43:45 pm
If Durdin can play as well as he did in the first half against Wet Toast, I’d have him in my team … but that’s a big IF!
You’re right EB, we can’t afford to carry players who don’t get the pill, unless they’re applying manic pressure and sticking tackles throughout the game.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 20, 2024, 05:24:54 pm
I would categorise Moir as an agile medium forward with the ability to out mark similar-sized defenders and, yes, very similar to Fritsch and Martin in the way he plays. Zac Williams plays in much the same way as a forward but is probably more opportunistic - probably because of his greater experience.
If Moir can extend his cameo performances to a whole game, and if Williams can stay on the park, we have the makings of a very potent forward line, regardless of who fills the third tall role. Assuming Charlie makes a full recovery from his ankle reconstruction of course.
We just need one of Motlop or C Durdin to stand up.
I would go with:
Motlop/Durdin Curnow Moir
Williams McKay Kemp/Silvagni
With E Hollands and Fogarty coming off the bench.
E Hollands would be a starter for me every game, consistent goalkicker and handy backup 2nd string mid when needed. Durdin cant get the football and Id be going with Motlop and Williams as my smaller forwards with Fogarty my backup off the bench if those two were showing lazy defensive traits. Id be running Durdin in the twos with some stints up the ground and onball trying to get him more involved and his possession numbers up and if successful then consider him for senior opportunities. You just cant have a player averaging 4-6 possies a game no matter how many pressure acts they make imho.
Fog and Elijah are amongst our most important players (for different reasons)
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: shawny on November 20, 2024, 06:10:20 pm
What a spew Moir didnt play another dozen games this year. I know experts with hindsight but he is an important cog for us in 2025 with losing Martin and Owies and would have been good if he got more games under his belt this year.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Thryleon on November 20, 2024, 06:40:06 pm
I really like small durdin. He's had a rough trott with injuries but he has express pace, is a worker and isn't afraid to stick his fragile body in.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: tex on November 20, 2024, 08:44:11 pm
I really like small durdin. He's had a rough trott with injuries but he has express pace, is a worker and isn't afraid to stick his fragile body in.
He ain’t the quick his legs just look fast coz they’re small 😂
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: northernblue on November 21, 2024, 12:21:54 am
In an ideal world your small forwards would get 15-20 touches every week, what small Durds does well is clog space and fill holes. If someone can get those touches and clog space then small Durds is going to find himself in the 2’s but if he’s fit I imagine he’s playing.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Blue Moon on November 21, 2024, 07:53:39 am
Boyd Weitering McGovern Newman Haynes Saad Docherty Cripps Acres Cottrell McKay Motlop Silvagni Curnow Williams TDK Cerra Walsh E.Hollands O.Hollands Cowan Hewitt Smith Not much point recruiting a CHB and not playing him. Back ups: Fogarty, Fantasia, Kemp, Durdin, Pittonett, Young and Cincotta Young players coming through: Binns, Lord, Lemmey, Wilson, B.Campereale, L.Campereale, O'Keeffe and Moir.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Milhanna13 on November 21, 2024, 10:16:46 am
If Durdin can play as well as he did in the first half against Wet Toast, I’d have him in my team … but that’s a big IF!
You’re right EB, we can’t afford to carry players who don’t get the pill, unless they’re applying manic pressure and sticking tackles throughout the game.
they obviously rate Durds. given him a contract, traded owies out to give him more of a chance. hopefully they know more than us
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: blueday on November 21, 2024, 10:38:54 am
what does everyone have against Cerra?? the "forgettable man"??
I was wondering the same. Would be a lock for best 22.
Agree. We are a better team with him fully fit and firing.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: WASurfer on November 21, 2024, 12:36:13 pm
Blue Moon....that lineup is very close to what I'd have....but I'd have Fogarty before Smith though. Fogarty was very good last year until he got injured and plays a very important role.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Blue Moon on November 21, 2024, 01:33:17 pm
I'm a big rap for Fogarty and he was starting to kick goals before he was injured. He would certainly be in the mix.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 21, 2024, 02:45:54 pm
If Durdin can play as well as he did in the first half against Wet Toast, I’d have him in my team … but that’s a big IF!
You’re right EB, we can’t afford to carry players who don’t get the pill, unless they’re applying manic pressure and sticking tackles throughout the game.
they obviously rate Durds. given him a contract, traded owies out to give him more of a chance. hopefully they know more than us
Not sure how they rate him, his stats are horrible, doesnt kick goals, doesnt create many assists for others , cant get the ball and cant stay on the park. He does have pace, will chase and tackle and is willing to put his head over the ball as Thry suggested but giving him a 2 year deal was mystifying. I think he can be better than he is and have a turn in the midfield if he could stay fit, dont think he will ever be a big goalkicker and he needs to be used further up the ground more to see the best of him. The reality is though his stats dont justify senior selection or even a place on the senior list and he is very lucky he had a contract and Owies didnt imho.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 21, 2024, 02:54:40 pm
Missing Kemp, Pitto, Motlop, Young, Hynes selection is going to be rough this year
what does everyone have against cerra?? the "forgettable man"??
Hammies are shot, his problem isnt ability but how durable he can be over a long season and at the moment I dont trust him to hold up and we need to develop other players in his role to cover ourselves. To use our leader Lord Lucifers scale of player weighting...out of sacked, cracked and backed Id have him in the cracked category and more of a bonus if he can play the majority of games. I think Jagga Smith or his mate Cooper Lord are players who could be developed to share those duties that we employed Cerra to carry out if his injuries persist.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: laj on November 21, 2024, 07:09:37 pm
what does everyone have against cerra?? the "forgettable man"??
Hammies are shot, his problem isnt ability but how durable he can be over a long season and at the moment I dont trust him to hold up and we need to develop other players in his role to cover ourselves. To use our leader Lord Lucifers scale of player weighting...out of sacked, cracked and backed Id have him in the cracked category and more of a bonus if he can play the majority of games. I think Jagga Smith or his mate Cooper Lord are players who could be developed to share those duties that we employed Cerra to carry out if his injuries persist.
Be interested to see if Cerra does better with a different fitness man.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: PaulP on November 21, 2024, 07:35:17 pm
In 7 completed seasons, Cerra averages over 18 games per season. He will be 25 when next season starts. It's far too early to say whether last season was an aberration or the beginning of the end. He needs to be backed in 100%.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: northernblue on November 21, 2024, 08:15:09 pm
In 7 completed seasons, Cerra averages over 18 games per season. He will be 25 when next season starts. It's far too early to say whether last season was an aberration or the beginning of the end. He needs to be backed in 100%.
Glad to see someone else recognise that he’s been durable until 2024
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Mantis on November 22, 2024, 01:41:29 am
With a full list with no injuries, we could be a very difficult side to match up on with one on one contests. Don’t write Cerra off just yet. I was not certain he would be anything special when we picked him up. I had suspicions he would eventually be a failure. Injuries killed our 2024 season. The “no excuses” theory stands strong but not the number of 1st and 2nd tier players we had out over the entire season. I hope Jagga and one of the Campo boys get some exposure this season. I hope we can see more of Moir. I hope we get a good run with Doc and SOSOS. I hope we see some improvement with consistent game standard from TDK. Our window is just about to open and I hope we can strike at the right moment. Cripps won’t last forever. He can’t carry the squad anymore. I will be keen to see if the Campo gene has been transferred to the new boys. I am very excited about season 2025. Nervous due to previous years of injuries. Hopefully this will be fixed once and for all.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: pinot on November 22, 2024, 08:07:53 am
Cez has had only one real injury prone season - all players have on average 2.5 injuries per year and last 12 days on average.
Well all players except Blues players.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: madbluboy on November 22, 2024, 08:13:44 am
I dont think you can play down 5 hamstrings in less than 12 months.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Thryleon on November 22, 2024, 08:18:28 am
Have a shilling on the VFL side...it will be a cracker. ;) :D
There should be a good blend of VFL listed players, youngsters pressing for AFL selection, others having their first real experience of open age footy and some seasoned AFL players.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: laj on November 22, 2024, 11:51:15 am
B: McGovern Weitering Cowan HB: Newman Kemp Saad C: Acres Cripps O. Hollands HF: E. Hollands McKay Moir F: Williams Curnow Fogarty R: de Koning Walsh Smith I: Cerra Hewett Cincotta Docherty S: Binns
I love that combo with the exception of Binns. Throw Cottrell or Lord in his place and SOLD.
Thanks for the compliment GITC. Binns might rocket up and improve in his third year. On rather limited time in the ones, he's shown he has some nice attributes. There's a case for the other two, Motlop, Boyd amongst others to be around there, and it's really nice to have good depth.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Sub-Zero on November 23, 2024, 10:35:51 pm
Interesting that no one rates Jack Silvagni as our 3rd tall forward and most want Kemp in that role. I think Jack is a more accomplished forward player and Kemp is more of a break glass type move forward player when you have injuries or need a change to provide a lift. Id also like to see Moir in that 3rd tall role and see what he offers, Im not even sure Kemp will be on the list next year and would see him as trade bait given we gave away our future picks for next seasons ND.
He needs to regain fitness, and displacing Kemp and McGovern won't be an easy task. Him and Mitch are playing for their careers at the club next year imo.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Sub-Zero on November 23, 2024, 10:37:21 pm
We actually need to see Kemp as the third tall. For the three games he played at the end of the year he was the second tall in one, and the number one in two of them with Curnow and McKay both missing games.
He'd be a tough matchup for a third tall defender.
I suspect that Kemp will have more success as a third tall forward than he would if we persevered with him as our second tall defender. He is quick, agile and a very good mark and that should make him a very tough matchup for most third tall defenders. Of course, given the way our forward line functions, he will be the second tall forward for significant periods of the game.
Hopefully, after he does have a couple of games as a tall forward, it won't be a case of mugs to the backline.
His best position is as a running flanker imo.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: pinot on November 24, 2024, 10:15:46 am
Defence ------------- Weitering first picked in defence Top players that lose less than 25% of defensive 1v1 and play on quickly with a kick with high meters gained. Defensive remainder Nic Newman Jordan Boyd Mitch McGovern
Remainder are defensive players that lose more than 25% of 1v1 Kemp Cincotta Cowan
Other than Cincotta, Cowan and Kemp don't provide any rebound
So my standard top six rated defenders - Weitering - Newman -McGovern - Boyd -Cincotta
6th spot goes to Saad for his high intercept and ground ball get game
Kemp is my 7th next best in case of injury and form
Midfield ----------- Players that has a high intercept game in the midfield as thats the best part to win the ball Players that has a high hard ball get game Players that has a high ground ball get game Players that are efficient Players that tackle and score assist
Best rated
Ground Ball + Hard Ball
- Cripps - Walsh - E Hollands - Cerra -Acres
6th and 7th highest ranking players Docherty and Lord
Forwards ------------ Rated players based on pressure acts + expected score
- Williams - Curnow - McKay
Players with low X score but high pressure acts
- O Hollands - Cottrell - Fogarty
Ruck is TDK
Interchange players is best of the rest in each category Kemp Lord Motlop (very high pressure acts and tackles inside 50)
Not enough stats available for Moir, Binns, Smith and I expect them to make an impact of some sort during the year
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: madbluboy on November 24, 2024, 11:18:49 am
I'm sure Gov, Boyd and Newman would lose a higher percentage of one on ones if they played on the guys Kemp is expected to.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: pinot on November 24, 2024, 12:59:38 pm
Stats show they have never lost a ruck contest too. Does that make them the best rucks the game has ever seen? Or does it depend on where they play?
Just a question here, but have they ever played in the ruck?
Fairly sure I saw one of them man up a ruck once…
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 24, 2024, 03:55:29 pm
It really doesn't matter how players may have gone last season. We have two important players in Docherty and Silvagni back from long term injury, a new, if well-aged, intercept defender and at least one new draft pick who will be pushing for senior selection. We've lost two players who were in our best available 22 all season and another who was always on the fringe of selection.
We also have players being set for different roles from what they played last season.
In that context, this is how I think things will pan out. It's not necessarily how I would pick the team but what I think our MC will do.
With Brodie Kemp and Zac Williams being set for roles in our forward line this season, it seems that we can lock them in, together with Harry and Charlie (depending on whether Brodie, Harry and Charlie work together in the match sims). That leaves three spots for Elijah Hollands, Fogarty, Cottrell, Motlop, Durdin, Binns, Moir and Fantasia. Lij is virtually a lock for a forward/midfielder role and Fog is so important for our defensive pressure and his work through the midfield. Cotters’ work linking up with the backline was missed when he went down but he can also play the wing role as good as anyone.
I think Moir did enough in his cameo appearances and, provided he gets full value from this pre-season, I suspect that he will get a run before Motlop, Durdin, Binns, and Fantasia and we’ll go without a dedicated small forward.
That means we’ll have:
Charlie Curnow – key forward Harry Mckay – key forward and second ruck (I’m assuming one ruck only) Brodie Kemp – key forward Zac Williams – medium/defensive forward Lachie Fogarty – midfielder/small forward Elijah Hollands - midfielder/medium forward Ashton Moir – medium forward
At the other end of the ground, Jack Silvagni is being set for a tall defender role and I think that he’ll be channeling SOS when the season starts. We didn’t bring Nick Haynes in to play in the Magoos and he’ll be another new face in our backline this season. The locks are Weitering, Saad and Newman and there’s a lot of competition for the remaining spots with Young, Cowan, Cincotta, Docherty, Boyd, Wilson and McGovern in contention. Cincotta and Docherty are also in contention for midfield roles and I believe that McGovern won’t be tried as a forward again.
I think that we’ll go with:
Jacob Weitering – key defender Jack Silvagni – key defender Nick Haynes – tall defender Adam Saad – small defender Nic Newman – medium defender Jordan Boyd – small defender Mitch McGovern – tall defender
Blake Acres and Ollie Hollands should own the wings and I think that Cottrell will come off the bench to give them a spell. I think that Tom De Koning will ruck solo and our folllowers/midfield will be:
Tom De Koning – ruck Blake Acres – wing Ollie Hollands – wing Matt Cottrell – wing Patrick Cripps – midfield Sam Walsh – midfield George Hewett – midfield Adam Cerra – midfield
One of Sam Docherty and Alex Cincotta could be the sub and Smith will be looking to force his way into the 23.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Thryleon on November 24, 2024, 04:17:44 pm
A lot of ifs buts and maybes, the proof in the pudding will be in the eating when we start playing footy.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: spf on November 24, 2024, 04:39:12 pm
IMO Ollie Hollands needs to be removed from the wing as he loses almost all of his 1 v 1 battles.
Wing is too important... Acres + Cotts + Doc is enough. Ollie needs to be retrained and mould Saad as a ground ball get and intercept player.
I'm not sure how you formed that view but it certainly doesn't gel with what you see here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ntE9x0-5Vo
Yes, it is a highlights package but it tallies with my observations that Ollie wins or halves most one on one contests, forces lots of turnovers, gets way more of his share of spoils and creates plenty of opportunities for his teammates with his ball use.
I'm not sure what a "ground ball get and intercept player" does but Saad is preparing for his eleventh season and 200th game and I don't think that you could "mould" him into anything other than what you get now ... and why would you want to change that?
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: kruddler on November 24, 2024, 06:11:33 pm
IMO Ollie Hollands needs to be removed from the wing as he loses almost all of his 1 v 1 battles.
Wing is too important... Acres + Cotts + Doc is enough. Ollie needs to be retrained and mould Saad as a ground ball get and intercept player.
I'm not sure how you formed that view but it certainly doesn't gel with what you see here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ntE9x0-5Vo
Yes, it is a highlights package but it tallies with my observations that Ollie wins or halves most one on one contests, forces lots of turnovers, gets way more of his share of spoils and creates plenty of opportunities for his teammates with his ball use.
I'm not sure what a "ground ball get and intercept player" does but Saad is preparing for his eleventh season and 200th game and I don't think that you could "mould" him into anything other than what you get now ... and why would you want to change that?
He loses most aerial and groundball battles - if you think O Hollands is in the mould of Kouta + Hanna that never lost their battles then we are on a different tangent. O Hollands doesnt get enough of the ball to hurt the oppo with his body type. If you cant get much of the ball then you need players that can win most of their battles and Ollie is never going to get there - his body type is more similar to Saad give him a go there he is a liability on the wing.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Thryleon on November 24, 2024, 07:28:21 pm
Are we really looking at ollie hollands... he's in his third season and turns 21 in January.
Talk about pouring the acid on someone. He's barely missed a beat and if there is a knock on him it's his consistency in game. Usually has a good half then fades.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: pinot on November 24, 2024, 08:51:07 pm
Are we really looking at ollie hollands... he's in his third season and turns 21 in January.
Talk about pouring the acid on someone. He's barely missed a beat and if there is a knock on him it's his consistency in game. Usually has a good half then fades.
You can tell after 20 games they dont have to star but they shouldn't be a liability either.
I dont think he is good enough to play on the wing - his form doesn't even justify playing AFL tbh.
Showed more as a half back he is getting mauled on the wings he is not going to fill out much more and he won't get much taller he will be 21 in January and thats still young but from what I have seen so far - apart from the unjustified love fair - unimpressive.
No shame on the lad - Simmo was a winger that turned into a gun half back. Same types.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 24, 2024, 08:55:51 pm
He loses most aerial and groundball battles - if you think O Hollands is in the mould of Kouta + Hanna that never lost their battles then we are on a different tangent. O Hollands doesnt get enough of the ball to hurt the oppo with his body type. If you cant get much of the ball then you need players that can win most of their battles and Ollie is never going to get there - his body type is more similar to Saad give him a go there he is a liability on the wing.
Did you watch the video before you made that absurd statement about Ollie losing contests?
Of course Ollie’s nothing like Kouta but he’s getting pretty close to the likes of Quirk, Crane, Glascott, Robertson, Hanna and Camporeale.
Ollie’s body type is nothing like Saad’s; he is taller, lighter and doesn’t have Saad’s strength, or the footy nous that Saad has accrued over 195 games. For a bloke that’s about to begin his third season, Ollie isn’t that far behind.
Ollie did play off halfback this season and did OK but his decision-making and creativity is better suited to the wing; think Weitering to Hollands to Docherty to Acres and goal!
The MC is more than happy to persist with Ollie on a wing and there’s no way that they will ever use Saad other than as a small defender.
Perhaps we should have a pick your fantasy team thread 🤣
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: pinot on November 24, 2024, 09:00:44 pm
He loses most aerial and groundball battles - if you think O Hollands is in the mould of Kouta + Hanna that never lost their battles then we are on a different tangent. O Hollands doesnt get enough of the ball to hurt the oppo with his body type. If you cant get much of the ball then you need players that can win most of their battles and Ollie is never going to get there - his body type is more similar to Saad give him a go there he is a liability on the wing.
Did you watch the video before you made that absurd statement about Ollie losing contests?
Of course Ollie’s nothing like Kouta but he’s getting pretty close to the likes of Quirk, Crane, Glascott, Robertson, Hanna and Camporeale.
Ollie’s body type is nothing like Saad’s; he is taller, lighter and doesn’t have Saad’s strength, or the footy nous that Saad has accrued over 195 games. For a bloke that’s about to begin his third season, Ollie isn’t that far behind.
Ollie did play off halfback this season and did OK but his decision-making and creativity is better suited to the wing; think Weitering to Hollands to Docherty to Acres and goal!
The MC is more than happy to persist with Ollie on a wing and there’s no way that they will ever use Saad other than as a small defender.
Perhaps we should have a pick your fantasy team thread 🤣
I know they are happy to persist with him. But they better change that tune pretty fast if they want to keep their jobs.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 24, 2024, 10:18:51 pm
I know they are happy to persist with him. But they better change that tune pretty fast if they want to keep their jobs.
I may be going out on a limb here but, just as I prefer Nick Austin’s list management decisions over the alternatives proposed by Kruddler, I have a hell of a lot more faith in the MC’s approach to team selection than I have in your prognostications.
Call me old-fashioned if you like but, when what I see gels with the widely-held assessment of Ollie as one of the best two way runners in the game, and the MC’s confidence in him, I tend to think that he’s more than worthy of his spot in the team and he has got a great future as a winger over the next decade.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: spf on November 24, 2024, 10:30:48 pm
Just on Ollie Hollands (and how a players worth is so subjective); what would opposition clubs pay to get him on their lists? If hypothetically we had said he was available this trade period - what interest would there have been? Of all the clubs in the AFL, how many would have been inquiring about his services?
I think quite a few. That probably tells you his real value (i.e. our club would rather he was playing for us than you).
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: pinot on November 24, 2024, 11:07:39 pm
I know they are happy to persist with him. But they better change that tune pretty fast if they want to keep their jobs.
I may be going out on a limb here but, just as I prefer Nick Austin’s list management decisions over the alternatives proposed by Kruddler, I have a hell of a lot more faith in the MC’s approach to team selection than I have in your prognostications.
Call me old-fashioned if you like but, when what I see gels with the widely-held assessment of Ollie as one of the best two way runners in the game, and the MC’s confidence in him, I tend to think that he’s more than worthy of his spot in the team and he has got a great future as a winger over the next decade.
I think you are mistaking some things 1. he is agood young player 2. Average to good in his draft year despite being a weak draft 3. You always give kids a chance to sink or swim not fall in love with them. 4. Premiership side wings have roughly 110 marks 85 tackles 470 disposals and kick 10 goals over 23 games. This is inclusive of winning your 1v1 battles. Lose those battles on the open side and you are done. Acres is extremely good winning his battles and so is Doc. 5, After 30-50 games Ollie is only slightly better than Lob.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: kruddler on November 25, 2024, 06:31:10 am
5, After 30-50 games Ollie is only slightly better than Lob.
Example 57 on why you don't pick team from the stats sheet.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Lods on November 25, 2024, 09:53:22 am
It'll be intersting to look back at this thread at the end of next year. I haven't picked a side yet. I will in the next few days. We'll see how right we get some of these. We'll be surprised by some who come from the clouds to be regular fixtures, and be a little disappointed by some who may fade from the side altogether. Ones who really come on will be the younger brigade. At the other end of the scale some of the older players may decline a bit more quickly than we expect.
Just some random thoughts before I start the process. It's a really important year for Binns. Folks have thought he deserved a go long before he actually was given an opportunity. He showed glimpses when given a start, but he has to really take hold of his opportunities this year because there will be plenty of competitition for spots he might fill.
Kemp will probably start the year as the third tall forward. I think he will go OK, if he's persisted with. He'll probably still be patchy as he adapts to the role. The advantage he has is his versatility and like Silvagni may be used forward and back. The disadvantage is the effect that will have on settling into a position. Jack's big issue will be how he returns from injury.
I'm a big fan of Cottrell...the question mark will be "Is he better than developing options?" and I'm not sure he can stay ahead of some of the youngsters. I think he may have suffered in the opinions of some by his lacklustre return after injury this year.
Of the older brigade.... Both Saad and Docherty will feature in most folks best sides at the moment In hindsight Doc should probably not have played this last year...I guess it was a balance between 'ability' and 'inspiration' at the time, and folks thought it might be a good 'team spur' to have him play. But he was terribly underdone. At his best he's a walk-up start and key player. Can he have an injury free year? You wouldn't put your house on it...and age catches up with the best.
Saad is starting to pick up a few niggly injuries. Mostly they're not major and I think there were probably games where he played through them this year. That probably won't get better as he ages and his strength is that burst of speed. That could decline quickly.
Picking as side at this time of year is a fun exercise but I suspect that any side we pick will have quite a few changes to the side that takes the field on the 27th September 2025 ;)
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: madbluboy on November 25, 2024, 11:45:30 am
We should be hoping for some new faces to come in because this year's team wasn't good enough.
Moir, Binns, Smith and Haynes will press for selection.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Lods on November 25, 2024, 01:31:07 pm
We should be hoping for some new faces to come in because this year's team wasn't good enough.
Moir, Binns, Smith and Haynes will press for selection.
The record will show we weren't good enough in the end. That won't ever change. But.... We were beaten in our final by the eventual premier on their home ground. We were a side decimated by injury and lacked a consistent group of players over the last eight or so rounds. About 8 weeks out many were pumping us up as flag favourites.
The injuries weren't to fringe players, but key players, and many of those battled for weeks carrying those injuries. With close to our best team on the feld we would have given most sides, even Brisbane a good run. At the very least we would have had a higher finishing position.
Not many of our players are on the down slope, and expect improvements from some of the young ones. With a bit of luck this list really isn't that far off.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: kruddler on November 25, 2024, 03:59:38 pm
We should be hoping for some new faces to come in because this year's team wasn't good enough.
Moir, Binns, Smith and Haynes will press for selection.
Logic is correct, but reality could suggest otherwise.
What changes to our 1994 team was so significant that it made our 1995 team dominate? Clape, Camporeale and Manton??
Were they the difference? Camporeale replaced Alvin in games/goals from the year before. Clape and Manton were good without being dominant.
I'd argue that Brad Pearce 2 games 0 goals in 1994 -> 23 games and 52 goals in 1995 was bigger addition than anyone else, and he was already there. Same with Dean Rice 1 (1) -> 18 (21)
This years TEAM wasn't good enough, just like 1994's team wasn't good enough. The players from 1994 were basically the same players in 1995......but the team was better.
This is something that is overlooked a lot (specifically by LL types who want to scorch the earth each year) that sometimes you have the right list, you just didn't have the right luck, development, motivation as a team.
This current list is not that far off. I don't expect to see a whole lot of difference from the blokes coming in compared to the blokes going out.....but i expect the team to be much better (and hopefully a little luckier!) and the result could be very different.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: madbluboy on November 25, 2024, 04:45:33 pm
I considered Pearce and Rice like new additions.
Hopefully Binns and Moir can step up next year.
Ratten was also like a new recruit. Before 95 he was a C grade back pocket.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 25, 2024, 04:55:21 pm
I think a few new faces ie mature recruits who can fix a few holes is important. Pies were laughed at when they brought in the likes of Frampton, Markov, Hill, Mitchell, Lipinski but it paid dividends with a premiership. Blake Acres was a low profile recruit as was Nic Newman but how big are they in terms of value to us and Id like to snag a couple like them every trade period.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: deepbluesee on November 25, 2024, 05:05:06 pm
Ratten was also like a new recruit. Before 95 he was a C grade back pocket.
Of all the players I do, and mostly don't, remember in their development years, I have strong memories of thinking Brett Ratten was not a standout in any way that I could see - not big/strong/ not very fast etc - looked quite average and I was questioning why he was getting games - oh how wrong I was (and very happy to be wrong).
We need a few to do a Brett Ratten in 2025
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: pinot on November 25, 2024, 05:22:30 pm
Voss 4th year and list in its peak for next 3-4 years,
Kemp needs to start realising his upside and his game winning abilities.... he was decent at the combine yo-yo so has ok endurance probably not at the upper echelon but is being wasted in defence because he cant break games open in the backline. He was a freak for Bendigo and one for the Brett ratten award only if he is played in a position to showcase his talent.
I'll be very happy with Acres and Kemp patrolling the wings. I will feel more comfortable Jarrod Berry on Kemp on the wing than anyone else
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Thryleon on November 25, 2024, 07:11:08 pm
I think a few new faces ie mature recruits who can fix a few holes is important. Pies were laughed at when they brought in the likes of Frampton, Markov, Hill, Mitchell, Lipinski but it paid dividends with a premiership. Blake Acres was a low profile recruit as was Nic Newman but how big are they in terms of value to us and Id like to snag a couple like them every trade period.
No one laughed at Collingwood got hill and lipinski or Mitchell.
They supplemented a team short on certain types and picked some surplus to requirements hole fillers.
We have done that with Haynes but he doesn't really fill any holes for us which is my only issue.
Markov and frampton were fillers but they were limited known commodities all tall durdin for us.
I remember calling their recruiting astute and thought they'd do better than everyone else who laughed at them, and was sorry to be proven correct in the worst possible way.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 25, 2024, 08:10:17 pm
I think a few new faces ie mature recruits who can fix a few holes is important. Pies were laughed at when they brought in the likes of Frampton, Markov, Hill, Mitchell, Lipinski but it paid dividends with a premiership. Blake Acres was a low profile recruit as was Nic Newman but how big are they in terms of value to us and Id like to snag a couple like them every trade period.
No one laughed at Collingwood got hill and lipinski or Mitchell.
They supplemented a team short on certain types and picked some surplus to requirements hole fillers.
We have done that with Haynes but he doesn't really fill any holes for us which is my only issue.
Markov and frampton were fillers but they were limited known commodities all tall durdin for us.
I remember calling their recruiting astute and thought they'd do better than everyone else who laughed at them, and was sorry to be proven correct in the worst possible way.
I think most thought they over did the top ups and were crazy thinking they were going to challenge with what they brought in. Frampton played the key role playing on Andrews on the GF but was just a fringe player at the Crows...Markov was good in the finals and gave plenty of run and seemed to be a cult figure of sorts. Hill was a talent but after his illness a unknown quantity. Mitchell was seen as old , slow and cooked. Lipinski was probably the only one you could call a likely success Imho.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 27, 2024, 01:29:38 pm
Ollie Hollands said that he was told in his exit interview that he will spend more time behind the ball this season. He wasn’t entirely sure what that would look like but it suggests a greater focus on defensive structures 🤔
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: spf on November 27, 2024, 06:15:43 pm
I think Moir and Jagga will be our biggest injection into the team. All the others in the lower tier (Motlop etc) will improve, but it's those two aforementioned that will really help the team. We also have the added return of serious long term injured to the team, so added stability and pressure for spots.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Lods on November 27, 2024, 06:36:09 pm
Ollie Hollands said that he was told in his exit interview that he will spend more time behind the ball this season. He wasn’t entirely sure what that would look like but it suggests a greater focus on defensive structures 🤔
Interesting with Docherty coming back into the team and id think probably more likely to play on the wing than resume his old duties at half back where he hasnt really played for a while anyway even when fit. Would this have any bearing on OH playing behind the ball and probably forcing a player like Boyd out of the 22?
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 28, 2024, 02:50:32 am
It was good to see footage of Jack taking part in he the training drills. I don't believe that he's back in full training but he can't be far off.
It will be interesting to see how he goes as a defender :-\
anyone know if there is any family history of playing in defense?
I think his dad might have had a few games in defence, but he was a much better forward as his bag of 10 goals against Fitzroy in 1993 and two lots of 8 goals in 1992 would attest. :D :D
(The full-back of the century kicked 200+ goals in his career)
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 28, 2024, 09:54:43 am
I think his dad might have had a few games in defence, but he was a much better forward as his bag of 10 goals against Fitzroy in 1993 and two lots of 8 goals in 1992 would attest. :D :D
(The full-back of the century kicked 200+ goals in his career)
SOS to full forward was a fairly standard move when things weren’t going well 🙂
SOS probably would have gone close to matching his toughest opponents’ goal kicking exploits but we had other forward options.
Sadly, Jack won’t be able to use the old man’s grappling tactics. I think that he would excel at that.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: kruddler on November 28, 2024, 02:20:45 pm
anyone know if there is any family history of playing in defense?
I think his dad might have had a few games in defence, but he was a much better forward as his bag of 10 goals against Fitzroy in 1993 and two lots of 8 goals in 1992 would attest. :D :D
(The full-back of the century kicked 200+ goals in his career)
Most goals Jack has kicked in a season is 19. His old man bettered that on 4 occassions. His best was 28 in a season and that came from 12 games.
Nobody expected Jack to live up to his old man as a defender, thats impossible. He hasn't even lived up to his old man as a forward though, thats gotta be tough to swallow.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 28, 2024, 04:09:30 pm
Alex Silvagni wasnt a bad defender and had a bit of agro about him, pity he couldnt stay fit enough. Ben played a bit of backline at numerous clubs without much impact or zest for the role.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: cookie2 on November 28, 2024, 04:13:57 pm
Alex Silvagni wasnt a bad defender and had a bit of agro about him, pity he couldnt stay fit enough. Ben played a bit of backline at numerous clubs without much impact or zest for the role.
Used to like Alex but his fitness problems were frustrating.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Thryleon on November 28, 2024, 06:50:20 pm
Alex Silvagni wasnt a bad defender and had a bit of agro about him, pity he couldnt stay fit enough. Ben played a bit of backline at numerous clubs without much impact or zest for the role.
that was a desire thing. Worst thing that happened to him was being better than his peers as a youngster. Everything is easy, until it isn't.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: LP on November 28, 2024, 10:42:20 pm
The critics assessment of Ben was 100% accurate, apologies are retrospective.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 29, 2024, 06:28:05 am
I had a forum member/s complain to the mods that I was overly harsh on Ben and I'm still waiting on their apology.🤔😀
All I can say is you're not alone! ;D
"Surnames" get special treatment, but I recall another past player's assessment of Ben, a player who was his coach. Ben could have been anything, but didn't have his big brother's focus, work ethic or desire. Some claimed Tom was potentially the best of the lot, but wasn't so interested in footy. Both basically had a career on offer if they wanted it enough, but they had to want it not just like it.
Lot's of stories like that at VFL level, blokes physically gifted with all the tools, but just don't want it badly enough.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: northernblue on November 29, 2024, 09:07:58 am
That’s not just footy though, it’s life.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 29, 2024, 09:10:37 am
On the footy side of things, it's the desire that has me wanting a match day role for SoJ, despite some apparent deficiencies relative to others on the list, you know you'll get 100% effort. I don't think we'll ever see SoJ as a passive observer.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 29, 2024, 11:44:38 am
Most goals Jack has kicked in a season is 19. His old man bettered that on 4 occassions. His best was 28 in a season and that came from 12 games.
Nobody expected Jack to live up to his old man as a defender, thats impossible. He hasn't even lived up to his old man as a forward though, thats gotta be tough to swallow.
If Jack continues to kick goals at the same rate, he will slot his 236th goal in his 312nd game. SOS only had 202! :)
Jack averages 0.76 goals per game and SOS averaged 0.64; not bad for a fullback! I guess SOS did manage to kick bags when he did go forward.
Jack's average will decline if he does become a defender ... or perhaps he will emulate his old man and kick bags when switched forward.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: pinot on November 29, 2024, 05:57:51 pm
Looks like Lemmey is filling out nicely - big boys take time till they get used to their big fame and how to use it. Will be interesting if it clicks for him and slowly goes into beast mode this year. 21 end of January so still a baby for a tall developing bloke but will be an intriguing watch.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 29, 2024, 09:30:04 pm
Looks like Lemmey is filling out nicely - big boys take time till they get used to their big fame and how to use it. Will be interesting if it clicks for him and slowly goes into beast mode this year. 21 end of January so still a baby for a tall developing bloke but will be an intriguing watch.
Did you miss my post about Lemmey explaining that his off-season program enabled him to become leaner and, hopefully, faster and more agile?
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: pinot on November 29, 2024, 11:30:53 pm
Looks like Lemmey is filling out nicely - big boys take time till they get used to their big fame and how to use it. Will be interesting if it clicks for him and slowly goes into beast mode this year. 21 end of January so still a baby for a tall developing bloke but will be an intriguing watch.
Did you miss my post about Lemmey explaining that his off-season program enabled him to become leaner and, hopefully, faster and more agile?
Looks like I might have - he seems alot more muscular to me- I think they do need to put him on a programme because his body type is muscle on muscle. I say let him go for it could become the next Levi Casboult pending on how big he gets - a big brute. Just practice contested marking and kicking and let everything else be... Dont think becoming more agile and leaner will be as beneficial as turning him into a monster like Levi... that would be your Levi Casboult/Charlie Dixon types - dont have one of those not sure missing out on the opportunity is particularly a very good idea. But intrigued how it all turn out. Could be an excellent Fwd Ruck with forward sitting in the goal square.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 29, 2024, 11:56:22 pm
Looks like I might have - he seems alot more muscular to me- I think they do need to put him on a programme because his body type is muscle on muscle. I say let him go for it could become the next Levi Casboult pending on how big he gets - a big brute. Just practice contested marking and kicking and let everything else be... Dont think becoming more agile and leaner will be as beneficial as turning him into a monster like Levi... that would be your Levi Casboult/Charlie Dixon types - dont have one of those not sure missing out on the opportunity is particularly a very good idea. But intrigued how it all turn out. Could be an excellent Fwd Ruck with forward sitting in the goal square.
The knock on Harry is that he doesn’t get to enough contests and doesn’t have the second and third efforts to impact the contests he does get to. His off-season program has obviously been tailored to give him his best chance at an AFL career … and there’s no way he’s ever going to be anything like Levi Casboult and even less like Charlie Dixon.
Back in the real world, Harry Lemmey will continue to learn from the two best key forwards in the game (in his opinion) and will try to get a win over Weitering in a one on one contest.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: pinot on November 30, 2024, 12:35:19 am
The knock on him could potentially be erroneous if they are trying to turn him into something he is not. He is a go to forward - leave him in the goal square and ruck.. turn him into a Brute not Nick Larkey.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 30, 2024, 09:04:00 am
Lemmey should be training as a backman imo, if we rookie McMahon he won't be the first choice KP forward replacement anyway and will be playing VFL for a long time. There is a vacancy as a KP backman and he looked ok when he played there at times last season.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: kruddler on November 30, 2024, 09:08:59 am
Lemmey should be training as a backman imo, if we rookie McMahon he won't be the first choice KP forward replacement anyway and will be playing VFL for a long time. There is a vacancy as a KP backman and he looked ok when he played there at times last season.
Yep.
I'm not sure how many 'swapsies' we are planning on doing this year but rumours have suggested that any of all of McGovern, Silvagni and Kemp could be trying their hand at the other end of the ground, and IMO Lemmey should be the one cemented as a key back rom from that group.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Lods on November 30, 2024, 09:50:07 am
I'm not sure how many 'swapsies' we are planning on doing this year but rumours have suggested that any of all of McGovern, Silvagni and Kemp could be trying their hand at the other end of the ground, and IMO Lemmey should be the one cemented as a key back rom from that group.
McGovern's an interesting one... We recruited him as a forward. He kicked 5 against us in one game for Adelaide. I'm guessing the thinking is that 'we tried him forward and it didn't work out' and he's been a servicable back for us. But us trying him there coincided with a few injury and form issues. Although he still has injury issues he's been a bit more stable in recent seasons.
How would he go if tried forward again? He's gained a bit of experience playing in defence that may be beneficial if he goes forward. He may be a better forward option then both Kemp and Silvagni.
The question would be could we afford to take him out of defence. It would almost ceratinly mean Kemp, Jack or maybe both, would need to drop back into the backline.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 30, 2024, 09:56:45 am
Not sure why we need to add another tall marking option to our forward line. We need that Fritsch style player who is capable at ground level but also good overhead and who is mobile. That equals Moir imo....Kemp, Jack, McGovern gives us a heavy look up forward imo...
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Lods on November 30, 2024, 10:05:13 am
Not sure why we need to add another tall marking option to our forward line. We need that Fritsch style player who is capable at ground level but also good overhead and who is mobile. That equals Moir imo....Kemp, Jack, McGovern gives us a heavy look up forward imo...
That's probably right. But Harry's not really a stay at home forward and is just as often seen up around the wing. Curnow usually get's double teamed, so if we have another tall marking forward dropping in it may take a bit of the attention off him.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 30, 2024, 12:13:33 pm
The knock on him could potentially be erroneous if they are trying to turn him into something he is not. He is a go to forward - leave him in the goal square and ruck.. turn him into a Brute not Nick Larkey.
Rob Innes apparently has set different targets for many of our players this off-season and Lemmey is one that will be leaner in the next season. Lemmey is relishing to prospect of better mobility.
Lemmey is not a brute and never will be. He has a relatively light build and is not going to get bigger than he was last season, unless he turns to fat. Key forwards have to be mobile and Lemmey is looking to emulate Harry and Charlie in their ability to get up the ground, find space and get a break on their opponent. Lemmey is also working with Weiters on his positioning and body work and being leaner won't make him weaker or easier to out body.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 30, 2024, 12:27:21 pm
I'm not sure how many 'swapsies' we are planning on doing this year but rumours have suggested that any of all of McGovern, Silvagni and Kemp could be trying their hand at the other end of the ground, and IMO Lemmey should be the one cemented as a key back rom from that group.
Nick Austin mentioned that Kemp is training as a forward and Silvagni is training as a defender. I haven't heard or read anything about McGovern changing his role.
Lemmey is training as a forward and I can't see that changing even if McMahon is rookied. Lemmey has pinch hit as a KPD in the VFL and that was one of his better games, but his best position is KPF and back up ruck.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: kruddler on November 30, 2024, 01:19:46 pm
I'm not sure how many 'swapsies' we are planning on doing this year but rumours have suggested that any of all of McGovern, Silvagni and Kemp could be trying their hand at the other end of the ground, and IMO Lemmey should be the one cemented as a key back rom from that group.
Nick Austin mentioned that Kemp is training as a forward and Silvagni is training as a defender. I haven't heard or read anything about McGovern changing his role.
Lemmey is training as a forward and I can't see that changing even if McMahon is rookied. Lemmey has pinch hit as a KPD in the VFL and that was one of his better games, but his best position is KPF and back up ruck.
I've heard same about McGovern, but cannot recall the source or how reliable it is. Speculating at this time of the year is wasted energy. So its worth waiting until R1 before we get too up in arms about who is training where and why.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 30, 2024, 02:29:10 pm
I've heard same about McGovern, but cannot recall the source or how reliable it is. Speculating at this time of the year is wasted energy. So its worth waiting until R1 before we get too up in arms about who is training where and why.
All we do at this time of the footy calendar is speculate ;D
I think it is interesting to take on board snippets about players' roles and who is doing what at training.
Kemp won junior All-Australian selection as full-forward - after one game in that role - and he has shown a bit as a forward in the VFL and our last few games last season. What impressed me was his endurance and willingness to get back to help in defence. If you watch the last minutes of the St Kilda game, apart from Kemp missing the sitter, you will see him on the goal line as Higgins' shot sails through.
Go back that Acres' goal against Melbourne the previous season and Kemp and McGovern are the two other Carlton players closest to goal. It's one thing for backmen to go forward in that situation and another for forwards to show a willingness to get back and defend ... and Higgins got the shot at goal because another forward didn't defend.
In the past I have advocated leaving Kemp in defence. However, he could be surplus to requirements there next season and our forward line has some holes to fill. Kemp is fast enough and agile enough to make life difficult for most third tall defenders. He is also strong enough in the air to compete with KPDs and I think that he could well become our slightly taller version of Bailey Fritsch but with the ability to hold down a KPF spot and the willingness and endurance to help out in defence. We won't lose the capacity for defenders to create options in the forward line, as Kemp and McGovern did in the win over Melbourne, and we gain a forward with a defensive mindset and the energy and capacity to be a strong contributor to our team defence.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Lods on November 30, 2024, 05:45:00 pm
Nick Austin mentioned that Kemp is training as a forward and Silvagni is training as a defender. I haven't heard or read anything about McGovern changing his role.
Lemmey is training as a forward and I can't see that changing even if McMahon is rookied. Lemmey has pinch hit as a KPD in the VFL and that was one of his better games, but his best position is KPF and back up ruck.
I've heard same about McGovern, but cannot recall the source or how reliable it is. Speculating at this time of the year is wasted energy. So its worth waiting until R1 before we get too up in arms about who is training where and why.
I've also read the McGovern to the forward line elsewhere, and it was also couched in the terms of 'rumours are'. It's likely it's just social media speculation feeding on itself, but the idea is not totally without merit given-
-He was a forward when he came to us. -He struggled a bit with injury in those early days. He's a bit more stable now. Seems to be able to play through those injuries. -A good spell in the backline has probably given him a few tricks to use as a forward. -With the addition of Haynes and the return of Silvagni (training as a defender), add Kemp and Cowan all around the 188-192 cm mark we are pretty well set up for medium tall backmen
We're either going to have a strong contigent of medium talls in the VFL, or someone will have to play forward. Most likely it will be Kemp. But McGovern and Silvagni are both options.
We'll probably get a better idea when they start to get into serious pre-season and see who is working with which group.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Sub-Zero on November 30, 2024, 06:02:18 pm
Flexibility and unpredictability is key. The fact that we don't know where some guys will be playing also means that the opposition won't know either.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on November 30, 2024, 06:19:25 pm
Looks like Lemmey is filling out nicely - big boys take time till they get used to their big fame and how to use it. Will be interesting if it clicks for him and slowly goes into beast mode this year. 21 end of January so still a baby for a tall developing bloke but will be an intriguing watch.
I'd look at training him as a KPD. We have forwards everywhere and won't be getting a game forward anytime soon no matter how well he comes on. KPD though we have a little hole.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on December 02, 2024, 09:28:08 pm
I'd look at training him as a KPD. We have forwards everywhere and won't be getting a game forward anytime soon no matter how well he comes on. KPD though we have a little hole.
You’ll have everyone in the backline Jim, not just the mugs. 🙂
We really don’t need another KPD but we do need a KPF as injury cover or to freshen up Charlie and Harry in the lead up to finals.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: laj on December 04, 2024, 02:53:02 pm
I'd look at training him as a KPD. We have forwards everywhere and won't be getting a game forward anytime soon no matter how well he comes on. KPD though we have a little hole.
You’ll have everyone in the backline Jim, not just the mugs. 🙂
We really don’t need another KPD but we do need a KPF as injury cover or to freshen up Charlie and Harry in the lead up to finals.
We do. We have a pile of 3rd talls trying to hold the key position, so we do need one. By complete contrast, another question, how many more key forwards do you think we need? You only need one very good one and a reasonably decent one. If you lose one of the big 2 someone like, say Kemp for example, could fill that in case of injury and the forward line would still function well with one of the big 2. Most important part of any side is a strong defence, which premierships are based on, as you well know. Take the ball out of defence well and you can set forward lines right up, even average ones.
I don't get how you think we don't need a key defender yet need 6000 key forwards.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 04, 2024, 03:42:32 pm
You’ll have everyone in the backline Jim, not just the mugs. 🙂
We really don’t need another KPD but we do need a KPF as injury cover or to freshen up Charlie and Harry in the lead up to finals.
We do. We have a pile of 3rd talls trying to hold the key position, so we do need one. By complete contrast, another question, how many more key forwards do you think we need? You only need one very good one and a reasonably decent one. If you lose one of the big 2 someone like, say Kemp for example, could fill that in case of injury and the forward line would still function well with one of the big 2. Most important part of any side is a strong defence, which premierships are based on, as you well know. Take the ball out of defence well and you can set forward lines right up, even average ones.
I don't get how you think we don't need a key defender yet need 6000 key forwards.
Agree...we have one decent KP defender on the list only, the next in line was told to find a new home with the clubs blessing such is his worth and reputation and there were no takers despite a universal shortage of quality taller defenders. If Weitering was to get injured we would struggle to beat 75% of the other teams and would get hammered by the good ones imho. Hawthorn have come to the realisation they needed to get KP defenders of some quality to make their team better, we have taken a more minimalistic route by recruiting a newbie prospect in Ofarrell who is a few years away imo and now are trying to find the best of Hawthorns VFL discards in DGB, Philips to fill a hole on the cheap. Clearly the CHB position is of low priority to the club even though our defense rated in the bottom six for points against and if the club thinks it has the players then Aaron Hamill as defensive coach has to come under scrutiny.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on December 04, 2024, 04:04:32 pm
We do. We have a pile of 3rd talls trying to hold the key position, so we do need one. By complete contrast, another question, how many more key forwards do you think we need? You only need one very good one and a reasonably decent one. If you lose one of the big 2 someone like, say Kemp for example, could fill that in case of injury and the forward line would still function well with one of the big 2. Most important part of any side is a strong defence, which premierships are based on, as you well know. Take the ball out of defence well and you can set forward lines right up, even average ones.
I don't get how you think we don't need a key defender yet need 6000 key forwards.
We have two great key forwards and an apprentice and we struggled when one of the two was missing and were close to pathetic when they both missed a game. With Kemp and Silvagni as possible back ups, we're fine for key forwards, providing Lemmey continues to develop. Lemmey has shown that he can hold down CHB in the VFL, as has McMahon who could get a SSP spot.
At the other end of the ground we have the best KPD in the business. We then have Lewis Young who, contrary to some opinions, wasn't told to find a new home, and didn't look for one. His best form, as we saw in 2023 is pretty good, but he doesn't quite fit the way Vossy wants our defence to play. However, it did look more cohesive when Young was recalled. We've then got several third talls who struggle against tall key forwards but are reasonably competent. Then we have a new apprentice in O'Farrell and a couple of Hawthorn rejects in the running for a SSP spot as tall defenders.
We're fine for talls at both ends of the ground.
It's a pointless discussion anyway as Harry McKay will remain as our key forward and back up ruckman for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: kruddler on December 04, 2024, 05:49:18 pm
We do. We have a pile of 3rd talls trying to hold the key position, so we do need one. By complete contrast, another question, how many more key forwards do you think we need? You only need one very good one and a reasonably decent one. If you lose one of the big 2 someone like, say Kemp for example, could fill that in case of injury and the forward line would still function well with one of the big 2. Most important part of any side is a strong defence, which premierships are based on, as you well know. Take the ball out of defence well and you can set forward lines right up, even average ones.
I don't get how you think we don't need a key defender yet need 6000 key forwards.
We have two great key forwards and an apprentice and we struggled when one of the two was missing and were close to pathetic when they both missed a game. With Kemp and Silvagni as possible back ups, we're fine for key forwards, providing Lemmey continues to develop. Lemmey has shown that he can hold down CHB in the VFL, as has McMahon who could get a SSP spot.
At the other end of the ground we have the best KPD in the business. We then have Lewis Young who, contrary to some opinions, wasn't told to find a new home, and didn't look for one. His best form, as we saw in 2023 is pretty good, but he doesn't quite fit the way Vossy wants our defence to play. However, it did look more cohesive when Young was recalled. We've then got several third talls who struggle against tall key forwards but are reasonably competent. Then we have a new apprentice in O'Farrell and a couple of Hawthorn rejects in the running for a SSP spot as tall defenders.
We're fine for talls at both ends of the ground.
It's a pointless discussion anyway as Harry McKay will remain as our key forward and back up ruckman for the foreseeable future.
We're fine because we have Kemp and Lemmey to hold down KP posts. >:( I am so sick of reading this.
Kemp is undersized. He is a break glass in case of emergency type. Lemmey has shown absolutely zero so far and is nowhere near AFL ready.
There is a simply exercise that highlights our issue.
Pick your best 22, in position. Pick your 'next best' 22 in position. Where are the weaknesses.
You 'should' have a backup 22 (in position) that steps up if/when required.
Looking at KPPS....inc. 3rd talls
Best 22 - Backs - Weitering, Haynes, McGovern Fwds - McKay, Curnow, Kemp Ruck - De Koning
Haynes is for a year only, maybe 2 if we are lucky. Lemmey, O'Farrell and O'Keefe are all babies not ready for AFL footy. Silvagni/O'Keefe are also backup rucks......with Silvagni potentially being a back this year as well.
Take any 3 players out of our best 22.....and we are out of depth.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on December 05, 2024, 12:20:13 am
Haynes is for a year only, maybe 2 if we are lucky. Lemmey, O'Farrell and O'Keefe are all babies not ready for AFL footy. Silvagni/O'Keefe are also backup rucks......with Silvagni potentially being a back this year as well.
Take any 3 players out of our best 22.....and we are out of depth.
And I'm not sick of reading your repetitive rants about not having enough KPDs? ::)
For a start, can you point out where I said that "we have Kemp and Lemmey to hold down KP posts"?
Just to help you out, I wrote, "With Kemp and Silvagni as possible back ups, we're fine for key forwards, providing Lemmey continues to develop," when discussing our key forwards. I then wrote "Lemmey has shown that he can hold down CHB in the VFL, as has McMahon who could get a SSP spot." Note the phrases "providing Lemmey continues to develop" and "in the VFL".
As per usual, I follow the club's designations. If they say that a player is a key defender or a key forward, that's good enough for me, even if the player may be a little short or a little light by someone else's standards. Our KPPs are:
Jack Silvagni - key forward (and back up ruckman or possibly key defender this season) 194cm, 92kg: first 22 Harry McKay - key forward (and back up ruckman) 200cm 105kg: first 22 Brodie Kemp - key defender (but is set to play as a key forward this season) 192cm 89kg: first 25 Harry O'Farrell - key defender 196cm 87kg: first year apprentice and unlikely to play in 2025 Jacob Weitering - key defender 195cm 102kg: first 22 Charlie Curnow - key forward 194cm 94kg: first 22 Harry Lemmey - key forward (and back up ruckman) 201cm 95kg: final year apprentice and likely to debut this season Lewis Young - key defender (and back up ruckman) 202cm 99kg: first 22
Then there's the possibility that two of the following could be rookied through the SSP process:
McMahon and Grainger-Barras are 22 and Phillips is 25 and all have spent at least on year on an AFL list. Grainger-Barras and Phillips have played at AFL level, McMahon hasn't. All three would be adequate replacements if we lost a KPP to injury.
Note that Hawthorn designated Grainger-Barras and Phillips as key defenders.
We also have Mitch McGovern and Nick Haynes as intercept defenders who are capable of playing on taller opponents. Tom De Koning could play as a KPF if required.
No team in the competition has a back up for every player in their best 22 and no matter how you try to spin it, we could put a decent spine on the ground even if three of our first choice KPPs are unavailable,
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: kruddler on December 05, 2024, 05:03:13 pm
No team in the competition has a back up for every player in their best 22 and no matter how you try to spin it, we could put a decent spine on the ground even if three of our first choice KPPs are unavailable,
Prove it.
I call BS on that.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on December 05, 2024, 06:07:36 pm
No team in the competition has a back up for every player in their best 22 and no matter how you try to spin it, we could put a decent spine on the ground even if three of our first choice KPPs are unavailable,
Prove it.
I call BS on that.
How exactly would one go about proving that - wait until the season starts and nobble three of our best KPPs?
You can call BS all you like and it still won't make your opinion correct or any more valid than any other opinion that supporters or footy media may put forward.
Just because you keep repeating stuff doesn't make it right, and it doesn't get any closer to the mark with each repetition.
I'll take your challenge, even though we don't have enough players on our list for two 22s. For argument's sake, our best win last season was our Round 15 win over Geelong so I'll take that as our best 22. Excluding those players our second best 21 would be:
B: Wilson Young Charleson HB: Docherty Haynes Camporeale, L C: Cottrell Cerra Binns HF: Moir Lemmey Camporeale, B F: Motlop Silvagni Monahan R: Pittonet Lord Smith IC: O'Keeffe Duffy O'Farrell
Now here's a challenge for you; try naming a competitive Brisbane second 22 that doesn't include McInerny or any players that played in the grand final. I'll give you a tip; the team you name would be flogged by West Coast and would struggle against our second 22.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: kruddler on December 05, 2024, 06:15:20 pm
No, prove that no team has a backup 22 in position.
We have an unbalanced list. We have had an unbalanced list for years. I refuse to believe that everyone has an unbalanced list like you suggest.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on December 05, 2024, 07:43:27 pm
No, prove that no team has a backup 22 in position.
We have an unbalanced list. We have had an unbalanced list for years. I refuse to believe that everyone has an unbalanced list like you suggest.
I refuse to believe that you won’t attempt to back up your flimsy argument by trying to name a second 22 for Brisbane 🙂
I’ve named what I think is a pretty competitive second 21 for us so I guess you’ll just have to concede that your position has been bogus from the outset 😇
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: kruddler on December 05, 2024, 07:51:03 pm
No, prove that no team has a backup 22 in position.
We have an unbalanced list. We have had an unbalanced list for years. I refuse to believe that everyone has an unbalanced list like you suggest.
I refuse to believe that you won’t attempt to back up your flimsy argument by trying to name a second 22 for Brisbane 🙂
I’ve named what I think is a pretty competitive second 21 for us so I guess you’ll just have to concede that your position has been bogus from the outset 😇
Naming a side with the caveat its based on the geelong game is a convenient way to not include Haynes in the 1's. We didn't recruit him to play VFL.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on December 05, 2024, 08:04:12 pm
I refuse to believe that you won’t attempt to back up your flimsy argument by trying to name a second 22 for Brisbane 🙂
I’ve named what I think is a pretty competitive second 21 for us so I guess you’ll just have to concede that your position has been bogus from the outset 😇
Naming a side with the caveat its based on the geelong game is a convenient way to not include Haynes in the 1's. We didn't recruit him to play VFL.
Nitpicking! Haynes wasn’t in GWS’s best 22 🙄
We were so badly hit by injuries after that game that there aren’t enough players for a squad.
However, feel free to nominate your best 22 and I’ll come up with a second 22 or however many players are left … but only if you can name a balanced, competitive second Brisbane 22.
Your reluctance to accept the challenge is telling 🙂
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: madbluboy on December 05, 2024, 08:18:32 pm
No, prove that no team has a backup 22 in position.
We have an unbalanced list. We have had an unbalanced list for years. I refuse to believe that everyone has an unbalanced list like you suggest.
You're getting sucked in to deflect from the fact we don't have a legit second tall defender. Just stick with that.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Blue Moon on December 05, 2024, 09:06:37 pm
I have put in my best team, but it is for the start of the year. My hope is that by the end of the season players like Binns, Lemmey, Lord, Wilson, Smith, Moir, B.Camporeale & L.Camporeale are pushing for selection based on strong form and we have a younger and more dynamic line-up by the end of the season.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on December 06, 2024, 12:11:00 am
Just to reiterate, we have the following KPPs:
Jack Silvagni - key forward (and back up ruckman or possibly key defender this season) 194cm, 92kg Harry McKay - key forward (and back up ruckman) 200cm 105kg Brodie Kemp - key defender (but is set to play as a key forward this season) 192cm 89kg Harry O'Farrell - key defender 196cm 87kg Jacob Weitering - key defender 195cm 102kg Charlie Curnow - key forward 194cm 94kg Harry Lemmey - key forward (and back up ruckman) 201cm 95kg Lewis Young - key defender (and back up ruckman) 202cm 99kg
Tom De Koning 201cm 102kg Marc Pittonet 202cm 107kg Hudson O'Keeffe 202cm 94kg
Brisbane, as the reigning premiers, must have the best list. They have the following KPPs:
Logan Morris - key forward 191cm 90kg Luke Lloyd - key forward 193cm 84kg Zane Zakostelsky - key defender 196cm 89kg Brandon Ryan - key forward 200cm 91kg Henry Smith - key forward/ruckman 206cm 98kg Darcy Gardiner - key forward 192cm 91kg Eric Hipwood - key forward 203cm 94kg Harris Andrews - key defender 202cm 98kg Jack Payne - key defender 197cm 104kg Darragh Joyce - key defender 195cm 96kg Sam Day - key forward 197cm 104kg
Plus two dedicated ruckmen:
Darcy Fort 204cm 98kg Oscar McInerny 204cm 110kg
What does all that mean? The reigning premiers have four KPDs, seven KPFs and two rucks. Our "unbalanced" list has four KPDs, four KPFs and three rucks, with the possibility of another two KPDs or a KPF and a KPD being added through the SSP. That's eleven and possibly thirteen talls for us and thirteen talls for Brisbane. And then there's Matt Duffy who, at 194cm and 90kg, could well be another KPP. After all, Brisbane has Darragh Joyce as a key defender ...
So, who has the "unbalanced" list, us or the reigning premiers?
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: pinot on December 06, 2024, 06:27:31 am
Our list is very good - everyone knows that - just need to stay on the park and build matchday cohesion between the lines.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: madbluboy on December 06, 2024, 07:27:19 am
Harris and Payne have been better than Weitering and Kemp/McGovern/Young.
I would like us to commit to Young but the coaching staff don't seem to like him in the side.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Lods on December 06, 2024, 08:25:53 am
There's no doubt about Harris Andrews being an elite KPD. However, Weitering is a superior one on one defender and he is a more intuitive footballer who is able to set up chains of possession and create opportunities for his teammates.
Jack Payne is a pretty good second banana to Andrews but Lewis Young is just a tad better and should be our first choice second KPD.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 06, 2024, 11:13:44 am
There's no doubt about Harris Andrews being an elite KPD. However, Weitering is a superior one on one defender and he is a more intuitive footballer who is able to set up chains of possession and create opportunities for his teammates.
Jack Payne is a pretty good second banana to Andrews but Lewis Young is just a tad better and should be our first choice second KPD.
Young is too fragile and timid, just not physical enough for a player his size and doesnt go hard enough, you can see why he wouldnt be a Voss favourite as the coach would have standards of effort and attack on the ball that Young wouldnt meet. Id take Payne over Young every day of the week, there had to be a reason why Beveridge let Young go from the Dogs even when they were short of tall defenders and I think we have found out why.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on December 06, 2024, 11:23:07 am
Young is too fragile and timid, just not physical enough for a player his size and doesnt go hard enough, you can see why he wouldnt be a Voss favourite as the coach would have standards of effort and attack on the ball that Young wouldnt meet. Id take Payne over Young every day of the week, there had to be a reason why Beveridge let Young go from the Dogs even when they were short of tall defenders and I think we have found out why.
I don't see that in Young at all. I think that his attack on the ball is as good as anyone.
Where he falls down is his lack of decisiveness with ball in hand and slightly awkward kicking style that gives the opposition time to cover his intended targets. I think that our ball movement out of defence is a bit slower and more predictable with Young on the ground and I believe that's what concerns Voss.
Do a comparision between Young and Payne on Footywire. I think you'll be surprised by the stats.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 06, 2024, 12:07:08 pm
Young is too fragile and timid, just not physical enough for a player his size and doesnt go hard enough, you can see why he wouldnt be a Voss favourite as the coach would have standards of effort and attack on the ball that Young wouldnt meet. Id take Payne over Young every day of the week, there had to be a reason why Beveridge let Young go from the Dogs even when they were short of tall defenders and I think we have found out why.
I don't see that in Young at all. I think that his attack on the ball is as good as anyone.
Where he falls down is his lack of decisiveness with ball in hand and slightly awkward kicking style that gives the opposition time to cover his intended targets. I think that our ball movement out of defence is a bit slower and more predictable with Young on the ground and I believe that's what concerns Voss.
Do a comparision between Young and Payne on Footywire. I think you'll be surprised by the stats.
I'll agree to disagree, interested in what others think of Young and his pros and cons. My impressions were based on his first season compared to what he has dished up since and in his first season he did show what is required effort wise but since then its been a dramatic turn around and I cant understand why? Being told to look around isnt exactly an endorsement of his abilities unless the coaching staff are trying to shock him back into his first seasons form.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: LP on December 06, 2024, 02:01:16 pm
I'll agree to disagree, interested in what others think of Young and his pros and cons. My impressions were based on his first season compared to what he has dished up since and in his first season he did show what is required effort wise but since then its been a dramatic turn around and I cant understand why? Being told to look around isnt exactly and endorsement of his abilities unless the coaching staff are trying to shock him back into his first seasons form.
In his exit interview, Young expressed his desire to play more senior footy, as you would. He was given two options and he went with the "stay at the club and work harder" option. That's just a little different than being told to look around.
I think that his problem is not lack of effort but is more about not coping with how the defence was tweaked for last season. While it may difficult for Young to play the way Vossy wants, it shouldn't be too hard adjust the defence to cover his tendency to slow our transition down. Perhaps that will be Haynes' task.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 06, 2024, 02:17:49 pm
I'll agree to disagree, interested in what others think of Young and his pros and cons. My impressions were based on his first season compared to what he has dished up since and in his first season he did show what is required effort wise but since then its been a dramatic turn around and I cant understand why? Being told to look around isnt exactly and endorsement of his abilities unless the coaching staff are trying to shock him back into his first seasons form.
In his exit interview, Young expressed his desire to play more senior footy, as you would. He was given two options and he went with the "stay at the club and work harder" option. That's just a little different than being told to look around.
I think that his problem is not lack of effort but is more about not coping with how the defence was tweaked for last season. While it may difficult for Young to play the way Vossy wants, it shouldn't be too hard adjust the defence to cover his tendency to slow our transition down. Perhaps that will be Haynes' task.
Carlton’s Matt Kennedy and Lewis Young look set to remain at Ikon Park, reports AFL Media’s Cal Twomey.
The duo had been told that they were free to look around the competition for a move this off-season, but with no obvious takers, Twomey says they’re now more likely to stay than go. I think the lack of interest from other clubs in a market short of tall defenders is a tell tale sign that Youngs abilities are not rated that highly by most clubs. He is on a nice contract at Carlton and it will be interesting to see the clubs attitude towards him at the end of 2025. Haynes will be doing the intercept/rebound role you would imagine, he isnt a KP player like Young but we wont argue that point as its been covered over and over and it will be interesting to see how the DGB/Philips/S. Durdin fight for a place on the list works out. Id imagine we will ignore having a true CHB and try and cheat with one or two of Haynes/Kemp/McGovern depending on who we are playing.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: LP on December 06, 2024, 04:13:51 pm
Id imagine we will ignore having a true CHB and try and cheat with one or two of Haynes/Kemp/McGovern depending on who we are playing.
It's the modern way @ElwoodBlues1 , a true CHF / CHB setup slows ball movement, blokes are either out on the flanks and away, or slicing through the corridor, they run the ball past the traditional CHF / CHB positions.
Even if there are shallow entries it is the mobile FF line that is up on the arc, the only KPF that got hold of us last season was Hogan, he's not a traditional KPF mover, and it was off the back of playing blokes half injured!
As an aside. I doubt Young will help against that type of player, players like Weitering and McGovern have the bandwidth, Young doesn't.
When we've been undone I've been quite disappointed in our MC getting the D50 match ups wrong. We've left blokes like Kemp and Young marooned. I suspect we burnt the ships, and went all-in on stopping the ball getting into our D50, and failed!
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Lods on December 06, 2024, 04:27:44 pm
Quote
In his exit interview, Young expressed his desire to play more senior footy, as you would. He was given two options and he went with the "stay at the club and work harder" option. That's just a little different than being told to look around.
Quote
Carlton’s Matt Kennedy and Lewis Young look set to remain at Ikon Park, reports AFL Media’s Cal Twomey.
The duo had been told that they were free to look around the competition for a move this off-season, but with no obvious takers, Twomey says they’re now more likely to stay than go.
Those statements are not contradictory.
What is obvious is that Young was told he couldn't be guaranteed a spot in the senior side. He was told he could pursue his options and see if other clubs could give him that guarantee. Given his indifferent form last season that's probably a fair position for the club to take.
What is not obvious is whether Young did have a look around or, whether he took the challenge and decided to fight for his spot. Whichever way it played out, he is still on the list.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: LP on December 06, 2024, 04:30:10 pm
Whichever way it played out, he is still on the list.
I think a far bigger question remains, and it is related to the subjective observation that he is still on our list and it appears he hasn't changed.
Sooner or later surely a coach gets the blow torch on this issue, we seem to be recidivists!
Of all the players on our list, to me only players who seem to have evolved at all are the self-motivated types, Cripps, Cottrell, Newman, etc., etc..
Other than Liam Jones, I can't think of one recent player who we have successfully coached into unambiguous positive development, and the coach responsible for Liam was sacked!
I think Power has done well at a team level, and maybe Kreuzer is getting the best out of Pitto with TDK on the rise, but I just can't see any others in Development that have greatly influenced an individual.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: kruddler on December 06, 2024, 04:59:22 pm
In his exit interview, Young expressed his desire to play more senior footy, as you would. He was given two options and he went with the "stay at the club and work harder" option. That's just a little different than being told to look around.
Quote
Carlton’s Matt Kennedy and Lewis Young look set to remain at Ikon Park, reports AFL Media’s Cal Twomey.
The duo had been told that they were free to look around the competition for a move this off-season, but with no obvious takers, Twomey says they’re now more likely to stay than go.
Those statements are not contradictory.
What is obvious is that Young was told he couldn't be guaranteed a spot in the senior side. He was told he could pursue his options and see if other clubs could give him that guarantee. Given his indifferent form last season that's probably a fair position for the club to take.
What is not obvious is whether Young did have a look around or, whether he took the challenge and decided to fight for his spot. Whichever way it played out, he is still on the list.
What is obvious is that the club doesn't rate him that highly, in that, they wouldn't mind if they lost him.
Why that doesn't send alarm bells to everyone suprises me no end.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Lods on December 06, 2024, 05:07:19 pm
But Brodie Kemp expects to be playing a fair bit more in the forward line in 2025. And he’s mighty glad to be doing it in Navy Blue.
The period between August and October was, self-admittedly, an “interesting one” for Kemp. It all began in the trip to Perth, when the Blues identified early in the week that Kemp was their man to lead the attack following injuries to Harry McKay and Charlie Curnow.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Lods on December 06, 2024, 05:13:56 pm
What is obvious is that Young was told he couldn't be guaranteed a spot in the senior side. He was told he could pursue his options and see if other clubs could give him that guarantee. Given his indifferent form last season that's probably a fair position for the club to take.
What is not obvious is whether Young did have a look around or, whether he took the challenge and decided to fight for his spot. Whichever way it played out, he is still on the list.
What is obvious is that the club doesn't rate him that highly, in that, they wouldn't mind if they lost him.
Why that doesn't send alarm bells to everyone suprises me no end.
What is obvious is the club doesn't seem to share the same concerns about our lack of a second big key defender as some of us. ;) ;D
It may be that they're quite comfortable that we have the personnel and strategies to combat opposition forward lines.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: kruddler on December 06, 2024, 05:17:15 pm
What is obvious is that the club doesn't rate him that highly, in that, they wouldn't mind if they lost him.
Why that doesn't send alarm bells to everyone suprises me no end.
What is obvious is the club doesn't seem to share the same concerns about our lack of a second big key defender as some of us. ;) ;D
It may be that they're quite comfortable that we have the personnel and strategies to combat opposition forward lines.
Of all the years to say that, i think this is the one you can't.
For the first time in a long time they have tried to address this. Haynes recruitment. Akieu, Marchbank, Durdin delistings. Drafting of O'Farrell. Suggesting Young may not be up to it. Switching Kemp forward. Having train ons like Phillips (KPD).
To me it says they are very much trying to rework that area. Albeit, half a decade too late. But.....better late than never.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 06, 2024, 05:24:33 pm
What is obvious is that the club doesn't rate him that highly, in that, they wouldn't mind if they lost him.
Why that doesn't send alarm bells to everyone suprises me no end.
What is obvious is the club doesn't seem to share the same concerns about our lack of a second big key defender as some of us. ;) ;D
It may be that they're quite comfortable that we have the personnel and strategies to combat opposition forward lines.
Having the sixth worst defense for points against wouldnt make me think we had the personnel/strategies, I would have thought your defense probably needs to be in the top four best to win a premiership?
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on December 06, 2024, 06:44:07 pm
Carlton’s Matt Kennedy and Lewis Young look set to remain at Ikon Park, reports AFL Media’s Cal Twomey.
The duo had been told that they were free to look around the competition for a move this off-season, but with no obvious takers, Twomey says they’re now more likely to stay than go.
Cal Twomey getting it half right and paraphrasing what Nick Austin actually said ... not that Austin repeated the exit interview conversation verbatim.
Before the wheels fell off midway through the season, we were premiership favourites with most experts, despite our slightly vertically challenged key defenders. There's no reason why we couldn't follow the same tack, even with Kemp seemingly destined to play as a forward. We just won't be able to afford lapses in our team defence or not having a defensive mindset at stoppages. I guess it's a high risk strategy that could produce high rewards if we get it right.
I'm in favour of a horses for courses approach and I don't mind going with one tall KPD if the opposition has only one tall KPF and doesn't rest their first ruck in the forward line. In all other cases, I'd prefer our KPDs to have a bit of size, even if it does slow our transition from time to time.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 06, 2024, 11:46:29 pm
It's not just playing with two specialist KP defenders but also having proper backup for Weitering if he gets injured.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: northernblue on December 07, 2024, 12:43:41 am
What is obvious is the club doesn't seem to share the same concerns about our lack of a second big key defender as some of us. ;) ;D
It may be that they're quite comfortable that we have the personnel and strategies to combat opposition forward lines.
Having the sixth worst defense for points against wouldnt make me think we had the personnel/strategies, I would have thought your defense probably needs to be in the top four best to win a premiership?
I agree but the ranking of our defence, is that because our defense sucks or because opposition hb’s are waltzing through the midfield unopposed and delivering laces out to their forwards ? It’s an important distinction that needs to be made.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: northernblue on December 07, 2024, 12:47:44 am
It's not just playing with two specialist KP defenders but also having proper backup for Weitering if he gets injured.
I don’t believe we can have a proper backup up for Weitering, no Rolls Royce is going to sit in the magoos until Weiters goes down. A backup will be someone with a bit of size who can play a role, hopefully…
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Lods on December 07, 2024, 09:12:05 am
What is obvious is the club doesn't seem to share the same concerns about our lack of a second big key defender as some of us. ;) ;D
It may be that they're quite comfortable that we have the personnel and strategies to combat opposition forward lines.
Of all the years to say that, i think this is the one you can't.
For the first time in a long time they have tried to address this. Haynes recruitment. Akieu, Marchbank, Durdin delistings. Drafting of O'Farrell. Suggesting Young may not be up to it. Switching Kemp forward. Having train ons like Phillips (KPD).
To me it says they are very much trying to rework that area. Albeit, half a decade too late. But.....better late than never.
So in effect, what some of us see as the 'important' piece of the puzzle, is actually the 'last' piece of the puzzle as far as the club's priorities.
Having the sixth worst defense for points against wouldnt make me think we had the personnel/strategies, I would have thought your defense probably needs to be in the top four best to win a premiership?
Couple of points with regard to how we finished up with the 'points against.' and our ranking.
It's probably a no brainer that you need a strong defence to win a flag. Our issue isn't so much that we lack a second key defender but that the majority of our defenders are attacking defenders rather than 'lock down' defenders. Saad, McGovern, Newman and Boyd all take the game on. Newman in particular is a high possession winner.
That can be a potent weapon but it depends on things like the transition from the backline and if that is breaking down in the midfield or up forward, we suffer on the rebound.
And that's where injuries play a big part.
Saad and McGovern struggled with niggly injuries for much of the season, continuing to play on some occasions. Weitering copped a couple of corkies that limited him. Durdin and Fogarty are two who apply good pressure in the forward line. So with them affected by injury and Charlie's ability to chase and provide second efforts due to his problems the ball tended to not stay forward as much as if those players were up and about.
That also applied to injuries and pressure in the midfield which meant balls coming out came back pretty quickly.
In most of our losses this year it wasn't the lack of a second KPD. Not many of our losses were the result of two big forwards getting hold of us. More damage was done by opposition midfielders and small forwards.
Defence is a whole team thing, not just the half dozen in the backline.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on December 07, 2024, 11:00:00 am
I don’t believe we can have a proper backup up for Weitering, no Rolls Royce is going to sit in the magoos until Weiters goes down. A backup will be someone with a bit of size who can play a role, hopefully…
The concept of back up players is bogus. As you say, a player capable of performing Weitering's role wouldn't be cooling his heels in the VFL. Furthermore, AFL list sizes, injuries and development or project players mean that it's simply not possible to have back ups for the "best 22".
Rather than a back up player, we will have strategies in place to cover the absence of key players. For example, if player A is suspended, we bring in player B from the VFL. Player B takes on player C's role and player C takes on player A's role. Players D and E have their roles tweaked to assist player C. Player F will also spend time in player C's role.
I remember hearing a Hawthorn player explaining during their premiership domination that every player in the 22 could move seamlessly into at least three other player's roles. If Hodge had to go off, someone else would immediately take his role until such time as Clarko made a more permanent positional change. We would have to have similar contingencies both for game day scenarios and at the selection table and they may even include Harry McKay to CHB :)
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 07, 2024, 11:32:11 am
It's not just playing with two specialist KP defenders but also having proper backup for Weitering if he gets injured.
I don’t believe we can have a proper backup up for Weitering, no Rolls Royce is going to sit in the magoos until Weiters goes down. A backup will be someone with a bit of size who can play a role, hopefully…
GWS had Buckley fill in for Taylor at Fullback and Himmelberg/Leek Aleer stepped up to take Buckleys role. I dont expect a Rolls Royce or two in the waiting but the GWS setup is one I would aspire to where you have two quality KP defenders and if one is injured the other one can still run the defense with decent help.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Professer E on December 07, 2024, 12:05:58 pm
Austin admitted in one interview I heard that key defenders were a critical list need (words to that effect), so the club is is clearly aware of the issue. Not surprised Ollie is being trialled behind the ball, spends a lot of time back there anyway helping out, don't know if he is strong enough against the small marking types like Cameron, Greene etc. That's Newman's job.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: pinot on December 07, 2024, 03:05:37 pm
Austin admitted in one interview I heard that key defenders were a critical list need (words to that effect), so the club is is clearly aware of the issue. Not surprised Ollie is being trialled behind the ball, spends a lot of time back there anyway helping out, don't know if he is strong enough against the small marking types like Cameron, Greene etc. That's Newman's job.
Ollie is better suited in the backline as wingman these days are brutes or super silky like Sidebottom and Josh Daicos.
He is a brave determined nugget and is better suited winning the ground ball and zip out of the backline. Good decision maker is Ollie will turn into a Simmo/Saad in a couple of years if we persist. Newy is a different type because he just doesn't lose his one on ones but doesn't have the groundball get ability and zip.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: PaulP on December 07, 2024, 05:14:31 pm
With pick No. 40, the Blues selected Harry O'Farrell, a promising 197cm key defender from Calder Cannons. Austin emphasised O'Farrell's raw potential, noting his balance of defensive capabilities and offensive instincts.
“It has been a positional need... one that can come in and develop,” Austin explained.
“Like all the draftees, they're not in a hurry to play; they'll play when they're ready. Harry's got some size to put on, but he's certainly got a lot of talent.”
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: kruddler on December 07, 2024, 07:03:59 pm
It's not just playing with two specialist KP defenders but also having proper backup for Weitering if he gets injured.
I don’t believe we can have a proper backup up for Weitering, no Rolls Royce is going to sit in the magoos until Weiters goes down. A backup will be someone with a bit of size who can play a role, hopefully…
There seems to be a misunderstanding of sorts.
Nobody is expecting someone of Weiterings capabilities to be sitting on the sidelines raring to go when his name is called. If Weitering was cloned, we'd easily find a spor for both in the best 22. So we don't need Weiterings 'backup' in the 2's.
What we are saying is we don't have anyone who can play a similar role to weitering on our list. If Weitering goes down, who can we trust to lock down on a forward and take him out of the game? If Weitering goes down, who can we trust to do his role, and help out the rest of the backline when required?
Thing with Weitering is, he can play lock down. He can play intercept. He can even play on smaller, dangerous forwards when the need arises. Remember Dustin Fletcher? He played on Fevola, he played on Eddie Betts. He played on whoever was going to give them the most grief....and Weitering is similar to that.
Ideally, i want another Weitering type in the best 22 who can do the same thing. In reality, all i want is a CHB who is capable of locking down on an opponent and taking them out of the game.
If the opposition only has 1 key forward, fine, let the CHB take him, and let Weitering roam free as a 3rd tall. If the opposition has 2 key forwards, the CHB and Weitering take care of business there.
We CAN fit a genuine CHB into our side without having to worry about how many KPF's the opposition has. Weitering is flexible enough to fit in regardless of who he needs to play on.
What we currently have an issue with is if Weitering is not there, injured or whatever, we don't have a lock down type who can play on the bigger forwards. On occasions Kemp, Young or even McGovern might have been able to get us out of trouble. On other occasions they've been embarrassed in that same role. We need consistency there, we need a CHB.
So now Kemp is moving forward. Haynes IMO will come in and take his role. McGovern probably staying as 3rd tall and Weitering still #1. Young to play backup in the 2's.....possibly with Silvagni too...although the latter may find a spot on the bench as a utility, 3rd tall/2nd ruck, depending on who else is in the team at the time.
The need for that CHB is still there from next year if/when Haynes retires.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Thryleon on December 07, 2024, 07:30:13 pm
I thought youngs best footy has come when weitering was either under duress or not playing.
His worst footy has been when weitering has been at his best.
I'm comfortable that young can fill that hole well enough of weitering is absent. A complimentary type to both is necessary.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: pinot on December 07, 2024, 10:00:15 pm
Don't need two lockdown key defenders In good team defence can zone off and cover the second tall Leave the 2nd tall one on one then team defence broke down. Coaches from where I sit dont see the merit in giving up run and rebound for two lock down defenders Defence wasn't the problem in 2024 anyway... it was defending stoppages
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: pinot on December 07, 2024, 10:03:48 pm
With pick No. 40, the Blues selected Harry O'Farrell, a promising 197cm key defender from Calder Cannons. Austin emphasised O'Farrell's raw potential, noting his balance of defensive capabilities and offensive instincts.
“It has been a positional need... one that can come in and develop,” Austin explained.
“Like all the draftees, they're not in a hurry to play; they'll play when they're ready. Harry's got some size to put on, but he's certainly got a lot of talent.”
Yup picked up early in a super draft - we are lucky we got him where we did. Type that will come on leaps and bounds very quickly if we get his development right
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on December 07, 2024, 10:27:17 pm
Don't need two lockdown key defenders In good team defence can zone off and cover the second tall Leave the 2nd tall one on one then team defence broke down. Coaches from where I sit dont see the merit in giving up run and rebound for two lock down defenders Defence wasn't the problem in 2024 anyway... it was defending stoppages
While it’s true that our defence held up against all opposition - the Hawthorn injury-blighted game excepted - it’s not about having two lockdown key defenders. Weitering is not a lockdown key defender and none of our other tall defenders would qualify. Weitering is an outstanding one on one defender who knows when to leave his opponent and turn defence into attack.
Team defence is essential but being able to at least half a contest with your direct opponent is equally essential. The seven or eight defenders we relied on did their job but we need better team defence, better one on one defence, and midfielders who don’t lose defensive 50 stoppages.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: kruddler on December 07, 2024, 10:41:37 pm
Don't need two lockdown key defenders In good team defence can zone off and cover the second tall Leave the 2nd tall one on one then team defence broke down. Coaches from where I sit dont see the merit in giving up run and rebound for two lock down defenders Defence wasn't the problem in 2024 anyway... it was defending stoppages
I suggest you re-read what i wrote as you seem to have misunderstood it.
Weitering is playing as a lockdown defender because we have nobody else capable. Weitering is at his best when he doesn't have to sit on an opponent. Introducing a key defender who can lockdown frees up weitering to do as he pleases.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Thryleon on December 07, 2024, 11:01:00 pm
For those who don't understand, watch Melbourne's premiership team.
May, lever and the 3rd tall down back was Petty.
Petty is the one we need. May would also be good, but lever wouldn't really suit us as well as the other two.
Nathan broad or Dylan Grimes types would also do the job.
Thing is, I reckon we worry too much about height too. Second they're under 194 most write them off, but Richmond's 3 peat had astbury as the tallest defender and I remember tigers fans thinking he was a dud.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Lods on December 08, 2024, 08:42:19 am
It's probably as much about overall body size as weight. May is only 193 but is over a hundred kilos. Lever on the other hand is taller (195cm) but weighs less than 90 kg
The 'two big guys in defence' idea probably got a bit of a boost from the success of May and Lever. But it was probably as much about how they work together as their size.
One of the teams where we could probably do with two big defenders is Geelong.
One thing that always surprises me is that when we play Geelong, Weitering takes Hawkins (or did), rather than Cameron. I'm wondering why...especially as Hawkins was in his 'twilight' in recent years and Weitering easily accounted for him.
We never have a good match for Cameron There was one occasion this year when Binns was his direct opponent in a contest. That didn't end well. Young played in that game, so was probably Cameron's opponent on the day. Where is the problem if Weitering takes Cameron?
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 08, 2024, 08:50:43 am
It's probably as much about overall body size as weight. May is only 193 but is over a hundred kilos. Lever on the other hand is taller (195cm) but weighs less than 90 kg
The 'two big guys in defence' idea probably got a bit of a boost from the success of May and Lever. But it was probably as much about how they work together as their size.
One of the teams where we could probably do with two big defenders is Geelong.
One thing that always surprises me is that when we play Geelong, Weitering takes Hawkins (or did), rather than Cameron. I'm wondering why...especially as Hawkins was in his 'twilight' in recent years and Weitering easily accounted for him.
We never have a good match for Cameron There was one occasion this year when Binns was his direct opponent in a contest. That didn't end well. Young played in that game, so was probably Cameron's opponent on the day. Where is the problem if Weitering takes Cameron?
Weitering isnt quick and couldnt keep up with Cameron, the players who worry Weitering are the leading style who are quick off the mark. The best combo in the league is Taylor and Buckley rather than May and Lever imo...the latter two have relied on Petty to do the grunt work while they do the intercept role and when Petty was moved forward it didnt really work for Melbourne down back imho.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Lods on December 08, 2024, 09:23:56 am
Yep I thought it's probably a speed, and maybe a mobility issue as well, as Cameron moves all over the shop. Lever and May haven't been near as influential in recent times and I was talking more about the period when Melbourne were at their peak a few years back.
There is a point to all that though and it's that KPD's all have their strengths and weaknesses. The measure of the Key defender isn't so much a height and weight issue as it is a skill issue. A good leap can overcome a height deficiency. Speed to the contest can overcome a cumbersome gorilla.
I think of some of our premiership sides and the mid sized key defenders who were more than a match for bigger forwards.
What we're all looking for is that elite combination of Fullback/ CHB, but more often you just have to settle for a really good one, and a support cast of solid players.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on December 08, 2024, 09:48:14 am
It's probably as much about overall body size as weight. May is only 193 but is over a hundred kilos. Lever on the other hand is taller (195cm) but weighs less than 90 kg
The 'two big guys in defence' idea probably got a bit of a boost from the success of May and Lever. But it was probably as much about how they work together as their size.
One of the teams where we could probably do with two big defenders is Geelong.
One thing that always surprises me is that when we play Geelong, Weitering takes Hawkins (or did), rather than Cameron. I'm wondering why...especially as Hawkins was in his 'twilight' in recent years and Weitering easily accounted for him.
We never have a good match for Cameron There was one occasion this year when Binns was his direct opponent in a contest. That didn't end well. Young played in that game, so was probably Cameron's opponent on the day. Where is the problem if Weitering takes Cameron?
I think that Sicily has shown that size isn’t everything. However, if a forward has an advantage in strength, reach, quickness off the mark, endurance, etc, they will try to exploit it. That’s where help defence should come in.
Most teams struggle to contain Cameron. A defender who can match him in a one on one contest in the goal square will be left floundering when he bursts through the centre.
Cameron’s opponents often switch when he goes into the midfield and that can produce a mismatch … like Binns.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: northernblue on December 08, 2024, 10:11:55 am
I don’t believe we can have a proper backup up for Weitering, no Rolls Royce is going to sit in the magoos until Weiters goes down. A backup will be someone with a bit of size who can play a role, hopefully…
The concept of back up players is bogus. As you say, a player capable of performing Weitering's role wouldn't be cooling his heels in the VFL. Furthermore, AFL list sizes, injuries and development or project players mean that it's simply not possible to have back ups for the "best 22".
Rather than a back up player, we will have strategies in place to cover the absence of key players. For example, if player A is suspended, we bring in player B from the VFL. Player B takes on player C's role and player C takes on player A's role. Players D and E have their roles tweaked to assist player C. Player F will also spend time in player C's role.
I remember hearing a Hawthorn player explaining during their premiership domination that every player in the 22 could move seamlessly into at least three other player's roles. If Hodge had to go off, someone else would immediately take his role until such time as Clarko made a more permanent positional change. We would have to have similar contingencies both for game day scenarios and at the selection table and they may even include Harry McKay to CHB :)
Whilst I concur, you do need to have someone physically capable of impersonating a missing player, no point having small Durds standing @ chb on Jeremy Cameron. Big Durds and McDonald before him were adequate replacements but were both injured almost every time they were required… Young on the other hand despite his shortcomings is at least durable and available.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on December 08, 2024, 10:32:55 am
Whilst I concur, you do need to have someone physically capable of impersonating a missing player, no point having small Durds standing @ chb on Jeremy Cameron. Big Durds and McDonald before him were adequate replacements but were both injured almost every time they were required… Young on the other hand despite his shortcomings is at least durable and available.
Yes, but not if the player that comes in as the replacement has a different role. To put names to a scenario similar to that above: - Weitering is suspended. - Small Durds comes into the 22 as a forward. - Silvagni goes to defence in Weiter's role. - Williams takes Silvagni's third tall forward role. - Our other playes adjust to a smaller forward line and a different defensive structure.
Even if Tall Durds or McDonald had been able to play, they wouldn't necessarily take Weiters' role and our defensive structures would have to change.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Thryleon on December 09, 2024, 10:15:18 am
If I'm reading things correctly, Kemp appears to be taking Kennedys role in the team.
Shifting him forward, with Haynes coming in improves that and makes it younger. We will miss kennedys midfield forays but I wonder if Kemp might moon light in there towards the back half of the season.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: madbluboy on December 09, 2024, 10:25:56 am
If I'm reading things correctly, Kemp appears to be taking Kennedys role in the team.
Shifting him forward, with Haynes coming in improves that and makes it younger. We will miss kennedys midfield forays but I wonder if Kemp might moon light in there towards the back half of the season.
When Cripps, Hewett and Cerra were all fit and firing Kennedy was on the outer. I think we want to speed up the midfield by giving Hollands, Lord and probably Jagga some time in there.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on December 09, 2024, 10:34:45 am
If I'm reading things correctly, Kemp appears to be taking Kennedys role in the team.
Shifting him forward, with Haynes coming in improves that and makes it younger. We will miss kennedys midfield forays but I wonder if Kemp might moon light in there towards the back half of the season.
Which role would that be Thry; midfielder, ruck, lead up forward or key forward?
One thing about Chugga was his ability to fill in for almost any role … but he wasn’t happy with being a jack of all trades.
I think that Kemp will be a dedicated third tall forward with a licence to get up the ground and impact marking contests. That’s if the experiment works.
Chugga’s midfield role will be more than adequately covered by faster options in Cerra, Lord and Smith. McKay and Silvagni will handle the back up ruck role.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 09, 2024, 10:41:46 am
Kennedy will be missed if Cripps or Hewett get injured , we will look very small and light around the ball. He played most games last season and will be a good fit with Bont and Libba at the Dogs.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Thryleon on December 09, 2024, 02:18:20 pm
If I'm reading things correctly, Kemp appears to be taking Kennedys role in the team.
Shifting him forward, with Haynes coming in improves that and makes it younger. We will miss kennedys midfield forays but I wonder if Kemp might moon light in there towards the back half of the season.
Which role would that be Thry; midfielder, ruck, lead up forward or key forward?
One thing about Chugga was his ability to fill in for almost any role … but he wasn’t happy with being a jack of all trades.
I think that Kemp will be a dedicated third tall forward with a licence to get up the ground and impact marking contests. That’s if the experiment works.
Chugga’s midfield role will be more than adequately covered by faster options in Cerra, Lord and Smith. McKay and Silvagni will handle the back up ruck role.
Forward with the odd chop out to Cripps. I think Kemp would be interesting as shock factor on ball from time to time.
Rucking isnt his go, lets not get another one in on that mess.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: cookie2 on December 09, 2024, 02:52:08 pm
I can see Kemp as a marking link man as Lynch was for the Crows. Decent mark and good kick into F50 from the Wing/HFF area.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on December 09, 2024, 03:07:51 pm
I can see Kemp as a marking link man as Lynch was for the Crows. Decent mark and good kick into F50 from the Wing/HFF area.
That would address a deficiency Cookie. Kemp always looks dangerous when he has the ball goalside of our defensive 50.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: pinot on December 10, 2024, 12:09:21 am
We were the 2nd worst team defending stoppages in 2024 it has nothing to do with the defence but how the ball was coming in - Hewett dropped at times or started as sub, same with Kennedy, Cerra injured, Walsh out of form... midfield was a bigger problem than defence. We leaked most points in competition from defending D50 stoppages. The greatest lock down defender in the world would always be no where near it
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: pinot on December 10, 2024, 12:13:50 am
This is how we lost games last year there is not one key defender on the planet that would be anywhere near it
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Thryleon on December 10, 2024, 10:27:34 am
^^
The first game vs the pies (I think it was a Friday night) was poor decision making entering forward 50 by Harry before this final stoppage. I think he was trying to win it for us at that point, but it was a shallow entry not to advantage to the top of the 50 and was easily cleared which caused an end to end. THAT is where we lost the game. This stoppage by Daicos to score is a seperate problem, but Kennedy rolled the dice and lost.
We need to be smarter with ourr ball use at critical moments, and manage the moments to coin a phrase.
The second time we let the game get out of reach and then tried to pull it back. Wasnt a matter of anything at the death, and we had kicked ourselves out of the game earlier.
Moral of the story, make the most of your opportunities when you have them. Another key forward might allow us to manage the final moments better, where we can take a strong mark in defense, and rebound, but thats it.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: kruddler on December 10, 2024, 04:32:37 pm
We were the 2nd worst team defending stoppages in 2024
Yes, in total.
However, if you look at it at differentials (us vs our opposition.....every week, for the year) we are far from it.
In fact we gave up 0.9 points more in points from stoppage than the opposition did. Less than 1 point.
Overall numbers don't take into account opposition you play vs other teams. What the weather is like etc. For instance, Teams who play more games indoor and teams that play in warmer climates (less rain) will score more on average (as will their opposition) compared to teams who play in cold, wet, windy conditions more. So....those same teams will have higher scores from stoppages (for and against) because they have higher score full stop!
So be careful looking at stats like that. Much better to see how good we are vs our opposition. .....and we are basically on a par with them (<1 pt) so its NOT how we lost games. We failed in that area as much as the average AFL team did.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: LP on December 10, 2024, 04:51:54 pm
Yes, it's clear when looking at the bigger picture that the problem is not as simple as just an extra defender or another Mid.
Sometimes momentum and scoring is like a seesaw, something has to fall for the other side to rise.
I continue to assert our problem is in the quality of our ball use and shallowness of our F50 entries. We are too robotic, this makes us predictable and easy to defend against when the ground is compressed inside scoring range. Sometimes coaches like the robotic stuff, especially if the tall forwards are dullards and they need more than a subtle prompt to get the timing right, but we have two Coleman Medallists.
We are great at getting onto the fringe of goal scoring range, but only Charlie can really take advantage of that, we need to find another 10m ~ 15m of ground then all our forwards become scoring options. Gaining that extra 10m has a huge affect on turnover as well, extra time for defenders to setup, extra ground for opposition to cover.
I'm also hoping like hell that from the new batch, we will managed to find a crumbing forward who will actually get to the feet of Harry and/or Charlie. The footy exits our F50 too easily, it smashes our relatively slow midfield. we have great aerobic runners but not a lot of top pace.
There is some irony, in that with two Coleman medallists we frequently struggle to enter F50 deeply, and that the opposition often enter our D50 far too easily long long before our defenders come into play.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Professer E on December 10, 2024, 10:08:07 pm
The above post mentions some of the critical issues, and explains why they are so important.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on December 16, 2024, 07:30:33 pm
Vossy has now confirmed that Kemp will be set for a role as a forward and Silvagni for a role as a defender:
"We’re always looking to find out where we want to get better, and some of it is to do with our roles.
‘Kempy’ will play [forward], we’re going to look at ‘SOS’ down back - we’re certainly committed to both those roles getting done.
The strength of being able to do that is we know they can flick to other roles if we need to. We know ‘SOS’ can go forward, we know ‘Kempy’ can go back. We feel like a pre-season spent there will add to us and add to them.
‘Kempy’ likes the creativity of the forward line, like Zac Williams. Zac has played defence for most of his career, goes forward and he finds something different - that creative gene gets flicked on. He’s doing some good things up here.”
Vossy also confirmed that Ollie Hollands is being set to play across half back after Ollie mentioned in an interview that he was going to play "behind the ball".
A long way off senior footy but Harry O'Farrell did some nice work as a key forward during our recent match sim.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: bobby on December 18, 2024, 01:35:39 pm
I don't think SOS down back will work. IMHO he is at his best as an elusive forward pocket who reads the play very well, involves others and kicks some goals. In doing this he isn't exposed by his lack of pace as he is elsewhere on the ground. I'm really really concerned that he won't work out down back. He doesn't break lines, he could get monstered by a big forward and he's slower than a mid/small ones.
It pains me to say this because I think he has the edge on everyone in side when it comes to passion for jumper. He simply loves playing for us.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 18, 2024, 02:22:54 pm
If Ollie Hollands is playing down back then who is missing out?
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on December 18, 2024, 03:10:26 pm
If Ollie Hollands is playing down back then who is missing out?
Newey spent some time training with the midfielders but has now made his way back to where he belongs :)
I think that Docherty is slated for a wing so that leaves Hollands competing with Saad and Boyd :-\
I guess that means Boyd not in the team, I find Ollie becoming a defender a bit strange and adding Jack down there as well if he plays there after pre season training as a defender just gives our defense a bit of an inexperienced vulnerable look imo.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: LP on December 18, 2024, 04:39:41 pm
I doubt that will be true, his absence would reduce our run and pace, and Boyd is also one of the better ball users by some margin!
A lot of the pre-season stuff you must take with a grain of salt, I doubt we end up in 2025 with all those stories of Kemp, SoJ and others switching here or there, we'd have no run, we just can't carry that many taller slower players given the apparent slowness of our midfield and we've added Haynes.
Owies leaving reduces our pace, as does Martin from the few games he played. Durdin has some pace but like McGovern can't stay on the park. Ollie and brother EH are not quick either. I suspect in F50 Lord and Binns might find more game time, for the very reason of pace.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ianh on December 18, 2024, 06:08:22 pm
I doubt that will be true, his absence would reduce our run and pace, and Boyd is also one of the better ball users by some margin!
A lot of the pre-season stuff you must take with a grain of salt, I doubt we end up in 2025 with all those stories of Kemp, SoJ and others switching here or there, we'd have no run, we just can't carry that many taller slower players given the apparent slowness of our midfield and we've added Haynes.
Owies leaving reduces our pace, as does Martin from the few games he played. Durdin has some pace but like McGovern can't stay on the park. Ollie and brother EH are not quick either. I suspect in F50 Lord and Binns might find more game time, for the very reason of pace.
Neither Lord or Binns are quick. From outside our regulars only Billy Wilson and the Irish boys add much by way of pace, and only Billy is any show of seniors this year outside of a massive injury list, stunning improvement or maybe an end of year taste if we have any dead rubbers.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: laj on December 18, 2024, 08:43:31 pm
Seems Lemmey has picked up over the pre-season. Looks like he has a real hunger and drive to succeed.
No disrespect to you Jim, or Lemmey but let’s see him play some good solid VFL and maybe dominate for patches with a senior debut to follow…
Yes, the proof of the pudding …
However, Lemmey has done all of the above with the exception of his senior debut. His game against Collingwood at CHB was one of the best VFL efforts I’ve seen.
He really has no excuses if he doesn’t continue to improve; shadowing Harry and Charlie and competing against Weiters is the perfect learning environment for an aspiring key forward.
Like G2C, I think there’s something about Lemmey … there’s also Harry and Charlie ahead of him in the pecking order.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: northernblue on December 19, 2024, 11:30:41 am
Yes, no one is waiting for him to displace H, Charlie or Weiters for that matter. At some point we will need him to fill a role though, I wish him well.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: LP on December 19, 2024, 01:09:44 pm
@ianh True from a global perspective, but relative to many on our list they are lightning! ;D
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: kruddler on December 19, 2024, 01:35:22 pm
Every year we say we won't get caught up in the pre-season fluff pieces and every year we get caught up in the pre-season fluff pieces.
Lemmey, to date, has done SFA.
Lets see him work his way into the side before we bestow hall of fame status on him. ;)
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: LP on December 19, 2024, 01:40:32 pm
Instead of Pre-Season I might start referring to this time of year as Tutt-Season, he was always flying right about now, then it just seemed to go sour in March!
Full apologies to Tutt, his friends and family, but it's genuine meme material!
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: laj on December 19, 2024, 05:20:10 pm
No disrespect to you Jim, or Lemmey but let’s see him play some good solid VFL and maybe dominate for patches with a senior debut to follow…
Yes, the proof of the pudding …
However, Lemmey has done all of the above with the exception of his senior debut. His game against Collingwood at CHB was one of the best VFL efforts I’ve seen.
He really has no excuses if he doesn’t continue to improve; shadowing Harry and Charlie and competing against Weiters is the perfect learning environment for an aspiring key forward.
Like G2C, I think there’s something about Lemmey … there’s also Harry and Charlie ahead of him in the pecking order.
His effort at CHB against Port Melbourne was outstanding too.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on December 19, 2024, 05:37:03 pm
His effort at CHB against Port Melbourne was outstanding too.
I missed that game Jim. His enthusiasm about matching up against Weiters at training might be paying off with his development as a potential KPD ... or swingman.
He has certainly got the physical attributes, his attitude seems to be just what you want and, as I mentioned previously, he has the perfect learning environment. I expect that he'll get an opportunity before long and we'll see whether or not he can deliver on his potential.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on December 20, 2024, 10:20:36 pm
I doubt that will be true, his absence would reduce our run and pace, and Boyd is also one of the better ball users by some margin!
A lot of the pre-season stuff you must take with a grain of salt, I doubt we end up in 2025 with all those stories of Kemp, SoJ and others switching here or there, we'd have no run, we just can't carry that many taller slower players given the apparent slowness of our midfield and we've added Haynes.
Owies leaving reduces our pace, as does Martin from the few games he played. Durdin has some pace but like McGovern can't stay on the park. Ollie and brother EH are not quick either. I suspect in F50 Lord and Binns might find more game time, for the very reason of pace.
Jack Silvagni may not be fastest bloke around but he could show his defender a clean pair of heels with his anticipation and footy smarts. There’s no reason why he can’t do that as a defender.
Kemp’s not slow and he’ll have opposition defenders busting a boiler to keep up with him … and didn’t you want him in the midfield?
Haynes is another pacy medium defender who reads the game very well. We won’t lose any defensive speed or run with Haynes in the mix.
Owies isn’t quick and neither is Martin. The former makes up for his lack of pace by his reading of the play and good positioning. The latter is nimble and has a very good tank.
Binns and Lord are stayers rather than sprinters and would struggle to keep up with the Hollands brothers in a dash.
But, back to EB’s point, I’d have Boyd in the team ahead of Ollie if it came to a choice of one over the other. Ollie’s probably better at getting to contests but Boyd can lock down an opponent and makes better use of the pill.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on January 30, 2025, 01:57:57 pm
I haven’t really noticed much of Brodie Kemp in the match sims. It seems that, apart from learning how to work with Harry, he has been trialling a defensive role on Weiters.
That would certainly be a point of difference to our recent forward line set ups.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on February 06, 2025, 04:38:29 pm
Pitto seems to think that he will be rucking in tandem with TDK and has been working on strengthening the non-ruck aspects of his game.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Thryleon on February 06, 2025, 09:34:50 pm
Pitto seems to think that he will be rucking in tandem with TDK and has been working on strengthening the non-ruck aspects of his game.
a cynic would say we know Charlie is cooked so we are going this route.
First Kemp forward, now dual rucks which was abysmal most of the time last season and previous. Combined with curnow being off the pace since November and it all adds up to contingency plans.
Nothing wrong with that, better to be prepared rather than not, but it doesn't bode that we are anticipating having the A team out there.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: LP on February 06, 2025, 10:05:29 pm
Pitto seems to think that he will be rucking in tandem with TDK and has been working on strengthening the non-ruck aspects of his game.
It's exactly what many of us thought was needed, we wanted Pitto to improve his non-ruck game play, those moments just after the ball up that he can often become non-competitive, and take a few more marks around the ground giving Harry and Charlie a bit of a chop out from covering so much ground.
But as stated last season, there will be weeks we go with one, and there will be weeks we go with two, because it's obvious there is no one solution to fit all circumstances.
Finally, share the load and have them all fit and firing at the finals end of the season.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on February 06, 2025, 10:28:28 pm
a cynic would say we know Charlie is cooked so we are going this route.
First Kemp forward, now dual rucks which was abysmal most of the time last season and previous. Combined with curnow being off the pace since November and it all adds up to contingency plans.
Nothing wrong with that, better to be prepared rather than not, but it doesn't bode that we are anticipating having the A team out there.
Only a cynic who hasn’t seen Charlie back in full training 🙂
Without wishing to re-ignite the one vs two rucks debate, I’m more than happy to see us working around two rucks. That’s provided that both of them - whether that’s any two of Pitto, Skull and TDK - can make a fair dinkum contribution when they’re not rucking.
Vossy is understandably not happy with how our forward line performed last season and has charged Jordan Russell with exploring different options.
Similarly, Sammy Hamill is looking at different defensive options with Silvagni, Haynes, Ollie Hollands, Carroll, Wilson and possibly a Camporeale.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on February 07, 2025, 11:12:04 pm
Doc says he’s training to play on the wing or as an inside midfielder, but may also play as a half forward/midfielder and half back.
I guess that there aren’t many other options 🙂
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: LP on February 08, 2025, 08:18:16 am
Media keep telling us our D50 is poo, yet there is no D50 spot for Doc.
Just saying folks!
Doc pointed out that versatility is one of his strengths but also implied that a defensive role is the least likely option - even with our two injured players coming from the defence.
It seems that our preferred defensive set up will be along the lines:
O Hollands Weitering Cowan Saad Silvagni* McGovern I/C Haynes/Boyd
Young, Carroll, Wilson, O’Farrell, L Camporeale, Charleson, Duffy, Monahan and Cincotta (when fit) provide the depth
Of course, seven of that lot haven’t played a game and that may mean former defenders, Kemp, Williams and Doc, reprising their roles.
*Training to play CHB
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: townsendcalling on February 08, 2025, 12:38:08 pm
Pitto seems to think that he will be rucking in tandem with TDK and has been working on strengthening the non-ruck aspects of his game.
Pitto, and the club might be preparing for 2026.... life without you know who!!
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Blue Moon on February 08, 2025, 12:43:59 pm
Watching the training today it is clear the O.Hollands role will be to move the ball quickly out of the D50 with pace and kicking. JSOS let go a couple of 60 meter torps which in a match situation would really disrupt an oppositions defensive set up. While there is not a lot of love for Fantasia on this site I am sure he will be in the starting line up if he remains fit so I would expect Fogarty to unfortunately miss out. He is clean with the ball and has footy smarts. Also Jagga Smith is very good and he will be in the starting team. I think Crippa will be getting more forward of the ball in his midfield role this season and hopefully kicking more goals while Walsh will be a linking midfield role. He will be a souped up version of Barry Armstrong, Ken Sheldon and David Glascott. A few other observations from today's training. St.Kilda should save themselves a million dollars a year and go after Harry Lemmey. He has definitely sized up and could surprise this year. Pitto looks stronger and more mobile than this time last year. I think there is going to be a bit of competition for who gets to where the big boys pants. There was a kid wearing number 33 who looked interesting as did the guy wearing number 45. Matt Duffy looks quite physically developed for his age whereas Ben Camporeale looks a little underdeveloped even compared to his brother. I think Big Harry is going to play closer to goal this year with Charlie playing up the ground more. I observed Matt Carroll in the gym doing his rehab by himself. Rehab is really a lonely place.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: kruddler on February 08, 2025, 05:19:46 pm
Pitto seems to think that he will be rucking in tandem with TDK and has been working on strengthening the non-ruck aspects of his game.
If he wants to ruck at all he needs to work on that part of his game. TDK is getting picked ahead of him. So he either adapts of waits in the 2's.
I think Pittos ruck craft is elite, so no point training that side of things excessively. Spend time getting him right elsewhere. TDK on the other hand needs to improve his ruck craft........or improve the consistency of his forward craft. Around the ground he is good without being great.
If we could combine the 2, we'd be unstoppable.
Still think we are better off switching Harry in the ruck as it actually improves his confidence and thus his forward craft on the back of it.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: madbluboy on February 09, 2025, 09:48:13 am
Docherty couldn't defend like he used to after his 2 knees let alone the cancer. It's why he was moved out of the backline.
I don't believe that is true and I'm not sure where that idea comes from.
I suspect Doc is moved out of D50 because the other players don't have his utility in other positions of the ground like the midfield.
I’m not sure that Doc was ever a true defender LP. His best years in defence were as a loose man before the 6-6-6 rule came in, but he was still a valuable member of the backline. Apart from losing the loose man role, I can’t see much difference between the way he played before the knee and cancer and his 2023. His work in the match sims suggests that the 2025 version will be much the same.
His skill set does make him more versatile than his former colleagues in defence. While he may add something to the wing/midfield/half forwards, I don’t think that we lose anything by moving him out of defence … apart from experience and leadership, but that’s not lacking among our defenders anyway.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: madbluboy on February 09, 2025, 05:26:57 pm
Docherty couldn't defend like he used to after his 2 knees let alone the cancer. It's why he was moved out of the backline.
I don't believe that is true and I'm not sure where that idea comes from.
I suspect Doc is moved out of D50 because the other players don't have his utility in other positions of the ground like the midfield.
He was the best HBF in the comp, did 2 knees and struggled when he came back. Fought cancer then came back as midfielder. Credit to him.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: pinot on February 09, 2025, 10:49:36 pm
We need a year of the experinced veterans play good solid football the 29-33 y.o bracket - Doc, Gov, Haynes, Fantasia Saad, Williams, Cripps, Acres and Hewett. We are going to go a long way if these blokes stay on the park all year.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: northernblue on February 09, 2025, 11:32:24 pm
That’s probably a question best saved for when you and me as a couple of the younger members here, are the only ones left here mate. You’re welcome to join, post, share and like… you know, all those things that grow the reach of fb groups 🤷🏼♂️ You’re also welcome (as is anyone else) to have admin rights, it’s not my page, it’s for this group to try and reach a younger, broader audience. 20 yrs ago when it seemed the site needed money for domain hosting, I and a couple of others produced some CSC branded clothing, I’ve still got and wear mine, how have yours lasted ?
What have you ever done to help the forum grow ?
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: tonyo on February 10, 2025, 11:10:03 am
I went to the open training at the weekend.
I must say, I thought Ollie Hollands off half-back looked very impressive. He could become the line-breaking defender we need badly.
The other stand-out was Jesse Motlop. I think we should expect some big things from him this year.
And Jagga Smith is a lock for Round 1. Very reminiscent of Nick Daicos.....
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on February 10, 2025, 12:17:54 pm
I must say, I thought Ollie Hollands off half-back looked very impressive. He could become the line-breaking defender we need badly.
The other stand-out was Jesse Motlop. I think we should expect some big things from him this year.
And Jagga Smith is a lock for Round 1. Very reminiscent of Nick Daicos.....
Your observations match those of many pundits :)
One thing I like about Smith is his ability to get into positions where he can impact the play ... and his teammates seem to expect him to end up with the pill.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on February 15, 2025, 05:34:50 pm
The Age "experts" have put together predicted line-ups for the first game. Ours is:
B: L Cowan, J Weitering, N Haynes HB: A Saad, M McGovern, J Silvagni C: B Acres, P Cripps, S Docherty HF: L Fogarty, C Curnow, E Hollands F: J Motlop, H McKay, Z Wolliams Foll: T De Koning, S Walsh, A Cerra Inter: O Hollands, G Hewett, J Smith, M Cottrell, A Moir Emerg: J Boyd, B Kemp, M Pittonet New: Jagga Smith, Nick Haynes Unavailable: Nic Newman (knee), Alex Cincotta (hip) Jacob Weitering, Nick Haynes, Mitch McGovern and Jack Silvagni are versatile enough to play in the same back line. Tom De Koning needs Marc Pittonet, but not every week. Lachie Fogarty, Matt Cottrell and Ashton Moir get first crack forward. Lock in Jagga Smith for an immediate debut. We’ve assumed Charlie Curnow, Sam Walsh and Silvagni will all be ready.
The Age "experts" have put together predicted line-ups for the first game. Ours is:
B: L Cowan, J Weitering, N Haynes HB: A Saad, M McGovern, J Silvagni C: B Acres, P Cripps, S Docherty HF: L Fogarty, C Curnow, E Hollands F: J Motlop, H McKay, Z Wolliams Foll: T De Koning, S Walsh, A Cerra Inter: O Hollands, G Hewett, J Smith, M Cottrell, A Moir Emerg: J Boyd, B Kemp, M Pittonet New: Jagga Smith, Nick Haynes Unavailable: Nic Newman (knee), Alex Cincotta (hip) Jacob Weitering, Nick Haynes, Mitch McGovern and Jack Silvagni are versatile enough to play in the same back line. Tom De Koning needs Marc Pittonet, but not every week. Lachie Fogarty, Matt Cottrell and Ashton Moir get first crack forward. Lock in Jagga Smith for an immediate debut. We’ve assumed Charlie Curnow, Sam Walsh and Silvagni will all be ready.
I think that's pretty close to the mark and the Tom De Koning - Mark Pittonet comment is spot on.
Solid
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on February 15, 2025, 11:47:00 pm
De Koning and Pitto rucked in tandem in the latest match sim. Tom dominated and Pitto was serviceable.
And Skull had a tough workout 🙂
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on February 21, 2025, 01:10:50 pm
One thing that Vossy mentioned in his season preview was that moving Ollie Hollands into defence was partly to create an opportunity for Binnsy to get games. I'm not sure whether he's done enough to take advantage of that opportunity but his work in the upcoming practice match should give a clearer picture.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: LP on February 21, 2025, 05:23:34 pm
One thing that Vossy mentioned in his season preview was that moving Ollie Hollands into defence was partly to create an opportunity for Binnsy to get games. I'm not sure whether he's done enough to take advantage of that opportunity but his work in the upcoming practice match should give a clearer picture.
I thought OH wasn't too bad when pushed into the D50 last season, lacked strength but that's typical for early career types.
It will be interesting to see how this pecking order pans out, I suspect we(The Club) think a few of these young blokes are about to surpass what Owies was capable of, so let see if our MC is on the money.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 23, 2025, 05:05:55 pm
My predicted Rnd 1 team squad of 24 (right now) FB Cowan Weitering Saad HB O Hollands McGovern Haynes C Acres Cripps Walsh HF Kemp McKay Fogarty FF Motlop De Koning Williams FOL Pittonet Cerra Hewett INT Silvagni Lord Moir Docherty Cottrell E Hollands
I think we will play TDK fwd and Pitto in the Ruck rnd 1 Walsh and SOS will be ready and will play. Doc better work on his disposal or he might find himself in the twos. There are ill founded rumours swirling around of E Hollands having a club enforced holiday (disciplinary), I doubt its true but where there is smoke there is generally fire. Of course we have a match next week and who knows what the injury gods have in store for us then. I would send the reserves side to GWS if it were up to me.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on March 02, 2025, 04:45:23 pm
I don't want to trigger another ruck debate and I realise that Lewis Young isn't everyone's favourite, or perhaps even anyone's favourite, but consider the following:
Pitto is a decent ruckman but he doesn't do a lot around the ground or when he's not rucking. By his own admission, he is working on improving his input when he's not rucking but improvement is not evident so far.
On Friday Lewis Young played around two thirds of the game and he spent part of that as a key forward, part as a key defender, and the rest in the ruck. Rucking has never been one of Young's strong points but he looked OK in the ruck, admittedly against GWS part-timers.
If Young can work on his ruck craft, and improve his shocking kicking for goal, does he become a more versatile option than Pitto if we want to run with an extra tall in the mix?
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: LP on March 02, 2025, 04:57:01 pm
If Young can work on his ruck craft, and improve his shocking kicking for goal, does he become a more versatile option than Pitto if we want to run with an extra tall in the mix?
If we can't get Charlie on the park, Pitto remains out for an extended period, Lemmey still isn't uncompetitive, Young might be our only option.
We already have SoJ back, Young and SoJ are about the same in pure ruck effectiveness, but aside from pure ruck SoJ surpasses Young in both F50 and Stoppage effectiveness, and by some margin. So if we are to surrender ruck dominance, then I'd rather SoJ.
On the D50 side of this debate, Haynes, Weitering and McGovern look formidable, SoJ looks more than useful as a back up option, and the more time Kemp spends forward the better he become at defending.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 02, 2025, 06:08:23 pm
Richmond are rebuilding and are no good so imho it wont matter who we put out on the park as long as we have Cripps, TDK, Harry, Weitering and a few capable Indians we should win easy and anything else is unacceptable. Didnt watch the game vs GWS but it seemed like a major improvement from the previous week in effort and skill and Id expect TDK and Cripps to dominate the Tigers and setup the win with hopefully no injuries.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 02, 2025, 06:52:08 pm
Richmond are rebuilding and are no good so imho it wont matter who we put out on the park as long as we have Cripps, TDK, Harry, Weitering and a few capable Indians we should win easy and anything else is unacceptable. Didnt watch the game vs GWS but it seemed like a major improvement from the previous week in effort and skill and Id expect TDK and Cripps to dominate the Tigers and setup the win with hopefully no injuries.
Major improvement is an understatement EB. The hitout v StK looked shambolic for the most part. The hitout vs GWS was the complete opposite, organised, cohesive and fairly strong at the contest for a praccy match. Lots of positives with SOS and Lucas Campo, there were a few negatives but by and large, the perfectly choreographed tune up for round 1.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on March 02, 2025, 07:25:50 pm
Richmond are rebuilding and are no good so imho it wont matter who we put out on the park as long as we have Cripps, TDK, Harry, Weitering and a few capable Indians we should win easy and anything else is unacceptable. Didnt watch the game vs GWS but it seemed like a major improvement from the previous week in effort and skill and Id expect TDK and Cripps to dominate the Tigers and setup the win with hopefully no injuries.
Major improvement is an understatement EB. The hitout v StK looked shambolic for the most part. The hitout vs GWS was the complete opposite, organised, cohesive and fairly strong at the contest for a praccy match. Lots of positives with SOS and Lucas Campo, there were a few negatives but by and large, the perfectly choreographed tune up for round 1.
Bear in mind that Briggs was a late out for GWS so they went in without a recognised ruckman.
On the other side of the coin, we kept Harry in cotton wool and, as Sammy Hammil pointed out, we had nine players with less than 50 games. Two of those are yet to play a game.
The St Kilda game was about working through scenarios and getting players to their allotted minutes. The GWS game still had an element of “it’s only a practice match” about it but there was a much greater focus on playing our system. Vossy would have been pretty happy with what he saw but Kingsley has some headaches to resolve.
One of the aspects of the game that would have pleased Vossy was the Kemp-Silvagni swap. Both looked very comfortable and capable in their new roles.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: kruddler on March 02, 2025, 07:59:45 pm
I don't want to trigger another ruck debate and I realise that Lewis Young isn't everyone's favourite, or perhaps even anyone's favourite, but consider the following:
Pitto is a decent ruckman but he doesn't do a lot around the ground or when he's not rucking. By his own admission, he is working on improving his input when he's not rucking but improvement is not evident so far.
On Friday Lewis Young played around two thirds of the game and he spent part of that as a key forward, part as a key defender, and the rest in the ruck. Rucking has never been one of Young's strong points but he looked OK in the ruck, admittedly against GWS part-timers.
If Young can work on his ruck craft, and improve his shocking kicking for goal, does he become a more versatile option than Pitto if we want to run with an extra tall in the mix?
I've got no place for Young in the side, be that forward, back or in the ruck.
He is largely very average in each area.
Silvagni made his way into my best 22 (admittedly with 2 automatic outs) and he is more than capable of filling each of those roles and does it better than Young.
Regardless, i'd prefer Harry and Cripps part time rucking behind TDK which allows both of them to 'break the tag' a little bit and gives them some freedom that they don't get otherwise. Both, are better options than Young in the ruck as well......and clearly better in their #1 role as well.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: Blue Moon on March 02, 2025, 08:40:15 pm
I think Young will play as the second ruckman. We look a little short without him. While he is not a ruckman as such he is always competitive. He would be a role player. I thought they could go with Lemmey but I think Voss prefers experience over youth.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: LP on March 02, 2025, 10:30:32 pm
Didnt watch the game vs GWS but it seemed like a major improvement from the previous week in effort and skill and Id expect TDK and Cripps to dominate the Tigers and setup the win with hopefully no injuries.
@ElwoodBlues1 GWS play this weekend, we don't play until the 13th, we shouldn't be reading too much into the result.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: LP on March 02, 2025, 10:35:22 pm
Young's second efforts are poor even relative to the younger players on our list, too often you see him make one contested effort then watch on as play continues away from him, it is why in the past we've seen several team-mates ripping into him on the ground. He spectates too much, in my opinion that unforgiveable.
Having said that, if he plays I hope he proves me wrong.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 02, 2025, 11:06:23 pm
Young's second efforts are poor even relative to the younger players on our list, too often you see him make one contested effort then watch on as play continues away from him, it is why in the past we've seen several team-mates ripping into him on the ground. He spectates too much, in my opinion that unforgiveable.
Having said that, if he plays I hope he proves me wrong.
Fair points on Young, its a shame he isnt contesting like he did in his first season and showing the desperation he did then but as you say second efforts are poor and in the range of zero to minimal but its his size and flexibility to play a few positions that keeps you interested in giving him another chance but he has proven a jack of all trades but master of none and with minimal effort attached. For a player who was shown where the exit door was and told to look around the lack of interest probably tells you how he is viewed and you would think he would be really going harder to prove to all clubs he is still valuable as a player but his attitude and intent doesnt look much different. I missed the GWS game so didnt see his stint in the ruck but going on his previous efforts I wouldnt be considering him as a 2nd ruckman unless we were desperate and Id be sticking with Harry as the player to give TDK a rest each quarter.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on March 02, 2025, 11:18:35 pm
Didnt watch the game vs GWS but it seemed like a major improvement from the previous week in effort and skill and Id expect TDK and Cripps to dominate the Tigers and setup the win with hopefully no injuries.
@ElwoodBlues1 GWS play this weekend, we don't play until the 13th, we shouldn't be reading too much into the result.
We play four days after GWS’s first game. Do you really think the preparation of the two teams will be that far apart?
I reckon that Kingsley will be reading a hell of a lot into the game.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: LP on March 02, 2025, 11:26:41 pm
We play four days after GWS’s first game. Do you really think the preparation of the two teams will be that far apart?
I reckon that Kingsley will be reading a hell of a lot into the game.
They weren't really chasing, exerted little pressure and showed relatively minimal 2nd effort.
We aren't that fast of a side relative to GWS, yet they barely got within reach of us on turnovers and centre breaks, even though they had a relatively small mobile midfield. I'd expect us to be physically dominant given the line ups, but not dominant with run, it's a tell. Motlop isn't fast but ran away from opponents, Young isn't fast but got defenders on the lead, Hewett was spreading with the footy. We had players with clear runs taking speccies over 2 and 3 opponents.
I'm not kyboshing our squad, but pre-season is always deceptive, you can't read too much into it.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on March 03, 2025, 11:04:48 am
We play four days after GWS’s first game. Do you really think the preparation of the two teams will be that far apart?
I reckon that Kingsley will be reading a hell of a lot into the game.
They weren't really chasing, exerted little pressure and showed relatively minimal 2nd effort.
We aren't that fast of a side relative to GWS, yet they barely got within reach of us on turnovers and centre breaks, even though they had a relatively small mobile midfield. I'd expect us to be physically dominant given the line ups, but not dominant with run, it's a tell. Motlop isn't fast but ran away from opponents, Young isn't fast but got defenders on the lead, Hewett was spreading with the footy. We had players with clear runs taking speccies over 2 and 3 opponents.
I'm not kyboshing our squad, but pre-season is always deceptive, you can't read too much into it.
So why then was Kingsley so concerned about GWS's form? Was he reading too much into it or was he taking part in a charade?
Statistically, the game was very even with basically the same disposals (we had more kicks but that's our way), tackles, uncontested possessions, contested marks, and inside 50s. We had more contested possessions, more uncontested marks, hitouts, clearances and significantly more shots at goal from our forward 50 entries. Basically, we simply disrupted GWS's game style, largely through our midfield dominance but also through a switched on team defence. That's what concerned Kingsley.
Yes, it was just a practice match, but Kingsley tried everything he could to get his team back into the game.
As for Motlop not being fast; "Agility is Motlop’s greatest athletic attribute, registering a top five finish at the national combine with a time of 8.063 seconds. That trait is showcased on-field as well, with his slick movement in tight situations making him hard to grab for the opposition, and he isn't afraid to use it at anytime. It proves a particularly dangerous weapon inside 50, where Motlop is able to weave through multiple would-be tacklers and kick goals out of nothing."
Then there's the work our forwards do to free their teammates to lead or fly for marks. In Brodie Kemp's words, "It’s a cliche, but I’m a product of my environment. I’ve got some good people around me and the team today played really well: we got our contest right up the field, the mids were really good at getting it inside 50 and I was able to go for my marks. Guys like Lachie Fogarty, Jesse Motlop and Zac Williams were blocking my man so I could get a run and jump at it, and I was fortunate to get on the end of a few."
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: LP on March 03, 2025, 11:12:03 am
As for Motlop not being fast; "Agility is Motlop’s greatest athletic attribute, registering a top five finish at the national combine with a time of 8.063 seconds.
We've been through this multiple times before, there is a huge difference between acceleration and sustained top speed, both are important. And agility is largely irrelevant outside of traffic, as I was discussing moving the footy unhindered and unpressured through free space.
Cripps would easily be one of our quickest over the first 5 or 10 steps, that is his training and power base, but after that the bulk of the AFL pass him like he's standing still, Motlop is no different.
I get it, you want to talk us up, as Mulder says, "you want to believe", but AFL is real not just a dream.
The ball movement we saw happen in the pre-season games for both sides, hardly ever or never happens in the real deal, that is not an accident. The same applies to Kemp or McGovern finding themselves free to jump uncontested and unhindered.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: DJC on March 03, 2025, 11:42:16 am
As for Motlop not being fast; "Agility is Motlop’s greatest athletic attribute, registering a top five finish at the national combine with a time of 8.063 seconds.
We've been through this multiple times before, there is a huge difference between acceleration and sustained top speed, both are important. And agility is largely irrelevant outside of traffic, as I was discussing moving the footy unhindered and unpressured through free space.
Cripps would easily be one of our quickest over the first 5 or 10 steps, that is his training and power base, but after that the bulk of the AFL pass him like he's standing still, Motlop is no different.
I get it, you want to talk us up, as Mulder says, "you want to believe", but AFL is real not just a dream.
The ball movement we saw happen in the pre-season games for both sides, hardly ever or never happens in the real deal, that is not an accident. The same applies to Kemp or McGovern finding themselves free to jump uncontested and unhindered.
Read what you wrote, "Motlop isn't fast but ran anyway from opponents." Yes, he did that, in congested situations where his acceleration and agility gives him an edge. He also got run down and was incorrectly penalised.
It's not a matter of talking us up; it was a practice match. But there's no point making stuff up to downplay our performance or excuse GWS being smashed by a more efficient team.
So far we've heard that we're at a different stage of preparation - even though our first game is just four days after GWS's - and then that GWS wasn't chasing, exerted little pressure and showed minimal second effort. Unlike the previous week's match sims, that was as competitive as practice matches can be. If we had played like we did against the Saints, I would be very concerned.
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: dodge on March 03, 2025, 12:14:54 pm
Looks like we're lining up in an orderly queue to the medics room!
Title: Re: How will we line up in 2025.
Post by: LP on March 03, 2025, 12:59:50 pm
So far we've heard that we're at a different stage of preparation - even though our first game is just four days after GWS's - and then that GWS wasn't chasing, exerted little pressure and showed minimal second effort.
All of it true, excluding perhaps Whitfield who can't help but delivery 100% every contest to his own detriment GWS looked disinterested and it was obvious from the 1st bounce. Would the coach be happy, no, does that mean it didn't happen, no!
The only thing you can take form pre-season games is body shape, fitness, strength, etc., etc.. In my opinion we have quite a few blokes looking better, stronger than ever before, if that shows in their footy then it's good news for us.
Another huge tell about it being a pre-season game, we had a Zero gamer probably BoG.