Something seems to be amiss with the percentage aspect of the poll Kruddler.
How so?
Because its not showing 100% for players that have been voted in every team?
This seems to be a sitewide thing added retrospectively, as its the same if you look at one last year now.
Yep It's obviously another glitch like the double quoting. It should be 100% if everyone who has voted has voted for that player.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 05, 2025, 12:05:24 pm
The team at Zero Hangar came up with this team as the likely opening lineup for 2025, I tend to agree with them given how pre-season training is taking shape and players being trialled/trained in different positions.
FB: Nick Haynes, Jacob Weitering, Nic Newman HB: Oliver Hollands, Mitch McGovern, Adam Saad C: Sam Docherty, Sam Walsh, Blake Acres HF: Elijah Hollands, Harry McKay, Matt Cottrell FF: Jesse Motlop, Charlie Curnow, Zac Williams FO: Tom De Koning, Patrick Cripps, Adam Cerra I/C: Lachie Cowan, George Hewett, Jagga Smith, Lachie Fogarty SUB: Cooper Lord
Others to consider: Brodie Kemp, Marc Pittonet, Orazio Fantasia, Jack Silvagni, Jordan Boyd, Corey Durdin, Jaxon Binns, Ashton Moir, Lewis Young, Alex Cincotta
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: tex on January 05, 2025, 12:06:52 pm
The team at Zero Hangar came up with this team as the likely opening lineup for 2025, I tend to agree with them given how pre-season training is taking shape and players being trialled/trained in different positions.
FB: Nick Haynes, Jacob Weitering, Nic Newman HB: Oliver Hollands, Mitch McGovern, Adam Saad C: Sam Docherty, Sam Walsh, Blake Acres HF: Elijah Hollands, Harry McKay, Matt Cottrell FF: Jesse Motlop, Charlie Curnow, Zac Williams FO: Tom De Koning, Patrick Cripps, Adam Cerra I/C: Lachie Cowan, George Hewett, Jagga Smith, Lachie Fogarty SUB: Cooper Lord
Others to consider: Brodie Kemp, Marc Pittonet, Orazio Fantasia, Jack Silvagni, Jordan Boyd, Corey Durdin, Jaxon Binns, Ashton Moir, Lewis Young, Alex Cincotta
Thats just 2 changes different to my team. O. Hollands + Fogarty vs Boyd vs Kemp.
Obviously, i'm biased towards my team, but i think its critical to have another KP option in there, especially since we are running with 1 ruck......and no silvagni/kennedy as backup.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Milhanna13 on January 06, 2025, 11:51:44 am
Saad Weiters Cowan Gov Haynes Newy Blacers Crippa Doc Lij H Kemp Zac Charles Mots TDK Cez Walsh int - Jagga Hewitt Fog Boyd sub - Moir
that leaves out - Durds, Cinc, Lord, Young, Binns, Pitto, Soj, Ollie, Cotters - that is 9 very solid back ups. hopefully this holds us in good stead - we can have reasonable injuries, without it being disasterous
then the youngsters - campo x2, lemmey, wilson, ofarrell, okeeffe, charleston, irish x2 then - fantasia
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: townsendcalling on January 06, 2025, 08:07:58 pm
At the fear of shooting Bambi, one of our strengths over the past 2 years has been two gut running wingmen, moving from defense to attack. Is a 31 year old coming off a knee reco going to give us the same pace and coverage as Acres and O Holland (throw in Cottrell as the 3rd wheel)? I still tend to think that Doc's best position is providing experience and steadiness in our backline....... rotated off the bench.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 06, 2025, 10:29:02 pm
At the fear of shooting Bambi, one of our strengths over the past 2 years has been two gut running wingmen, moving from defense to attack. Is a 31 year old coming off a knee reco going to give us the same pace and coverage as Acres and O Holland (throw in Cottrell as the 3rd wheel)? I still tend to think that Doc's best position is providing experience and steadiness in our backline....... rotated off the bench.
Are they just trying to find a spot for him by moving him to mid to wing?
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Lods on January 06, 2025, 11:57:34 pm
Docherty is one of the key reasons I found this particular best 22 so difficult. Doc in his prime is a walk-up start....but what does 2025 Docherty look like, particularly when we didn't see the 2024 version until the end, and that left more questions than it answered. So when I did eventually pick the side I left him out.
I want to see how he comes back with a solid pre-season and no injuries. It may be he's straight back in the next time we do this exercise....but right now I think we need to see a bit more.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: DJC on January 07, 2025, 12:09:38 am
At the fear of shooting Bambi, one of our strengths over the past 2 years has been two gut running wingmen, moving from defense to attack. Is a 31 year old coming off a knee reco going to give us the same pace and coverage as Acres and O Holland (throw in Cottrell as the 3rd wheel)? I still tend to think that Doc's best position is providing experience and steadiness in our backline....... rotated off the bench.
If Docherty gets a game, it will be as a defender or midfielder/forward. He may spend a bit of time on the wing if the gut running wingmen need a spell but he's nowhere near a first choice wingman.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: tex on January 07, 2025, 06:13:17 am
At the fear of shooting Bambi, one of our strengths over the past 2 years has been two gut running wingmen, moving from defense to attack. Is a 31 year old coming off a knee reco going to give us the same pace and coverage as Acres and O Holland (throw in Cottrell as the 3rd wheel)? I still tend to think that Doc's best position is providing experience and steadiness in our backline....... rotated off the bench.
If Docherty gets a game, it will be as a defender or midfielder/forward. He may spend a bit of time on the wing if the gut running wingmen need a spell but he's nowhere near a first choice wingman.
Might he actually play forward a la Kennedy type role?
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Baggers on January 07, 2025, 08:24:29 am
If Docherty gets a game, it will be as a defender or midfielder/forward. He may spend a bit of time on the wing if the gut running wingmen need a spell but he's nowhere near a first choice wingman.
Might he actually play forward a la Kennedy type role?
The only issue when looking at Doc as a forward is, whose place take he take; who does he keep out?
Acres and Cottrell are easily first choice wingers... each can run all day and get to important contests from deep in defence to deep in attack.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 07, 2025, 09:30:59 am
I think Doherty will play on the wing, he gets plenty of ball and delivers well. Down back he is more of a rebounder and can get a bit loose and play off his man too much IMHO.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Lods on January 07, 2025, 10:14:44 am
I think what we're seeing is that whatever position Docherty plays there will be strong competition for that spot. Docherty has to be better than that competition, and as they are mostly younger and developing, that may not be an easy task.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: tonyo on January 07, 2025, 10:26:25 am
This exercise shows one thing - assuming we can keep most of the players out of the medical room, we now have more depth than I have seen for 30 years!
Not that long ago, we were asking 'how does he get a game?' - now, it's 'how can I fit him in?'
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: DJC on January 07, 2025, 11:09:47 am
The only issue when looking at Doc as a forward is, whose place take he take; who does he keep out?
Acres and Cottrell are easily first choice wingers... each can run all day and get to important contests from deep in defence to deep in attack.
Or you could look at it from the perspective of who is good enough to keep Doc out of the 22.
Doc isn’t in my best 22 but I’m far from confident that I’ve made the right decision 🤔
I often think back to the chain of possessions in THAT win over Melbourne; Weiters to Ollie to Doc to Acres (with Gov running interference) and goal! Five players whose footy nous, awareness, decision-making, and execution snatched victory. If Doc can play at that level, he is best 22. If he can’t recapture that athleticism and form, he’s a depth player at best.
Knowing Doc’s determination and fanatical preparation, I won’t be surprised if he’s in the squad for Round 1.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Lods on January 07, 2025, 11:17:41 am
Here's a question.... I seem to remember there are certain restrictions regarding VFL matches and participation. Is there a restriction on the number of AFL listed players that can play for the clubs VFL team each week?
If there is not....good luck making the VFL side if you're not on the Carlton senior list.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: LP on January 07, 2025, 11:57:09 am
There use to be some match day restrictions but I'm not sure they exist anymore, I think the limits were lifted back when the AFL clubs joined as standalone.
There are list management restrictions for clubs aligned to AFL clubs, non-aligned clubs have no restrictions.
There are Salary Cap restrictions for both aligned and non-aligned, and there are limits on how many games some types of top up / development players can be used during a season.
Most of the rules seem aimed at preventing AFL club's gaming the system.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: DJC on January 07, 2025, 12:11:11 pm
Here's a question.... I seem to remember there are certain restrictions regarding VFL matches and participation. Is there a restriction on the number of AFL listed players that can play for the clubs VFL team each week?
If there is not....good luck making the VFL side if you're not on the Carlton senior list.
The only restriction is during finals when players have to have played a set number of VFL games to qualify.
I think that we fielded teams with eleven AFL listed players a couple of times last season. We should exceed that this season after the cull of injury-prone players.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: LP on January 07, 2025, 12:37:44 pm
I'm pretty sure there are a bunch of regulations about how many u22s and the 23rd player as well, but they apply universally. I know clubs are limited on how often a player can be selected as the 23rd, and I think the 23rd must be u20.
Again, these rules are mostly in place to stop AFL clubs gaming the selection of Development and / or Academy players.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: pinot on January 09, 2025, 09:43:18 pm
B: Haynes Weitering Newman HB: Docherty Silvagni Saad C: Walsh Cripps Acres HF: Cottrell Harry Hollands F: Williams Charlie Kemp R: TDK Hewett Cerra IC: McGovern Fogarty Smith Boyd
Dont think they will line up like that but if Walshy;s flat form continues then would like him on the wing until he finds form.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: kruddler on January 09, 2025, 09:56:05 pm
I think it depends if you're picking a best 22 to play a match or the best 22 players on the list.
Binns might be your number 24-25 best player. But if you're picking for position he might be your second best wingman.
I think that the app Kruddler linked encourages one to pick the best combination of 22 players rather than the 22 best players. At least, that’s how I approached selecting my best 22.
As much as I was impressed by Binnsy taking down Newey and his off season preparation, there’s no way that he’s best 25 or close to the fifth best winger.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: kruddler on January 11, 2025, 11:27:17 pm
I think it depends if you're picking a best 22 to play a match or the best 22 players on the list.
Binns might be your number 24-25 best player. But if you're picking for position he might be your second best wingman.
I think that the app Kruddler linked encourages one to pick the best combination of 22 players rather than the 22 best players. At least, that’s how I approached selecting my best 22.
As much as I was impressed by Binnsy taking down Newey and his off season preparation, there’s no way that he’s best 25 or close to the fifth best winger.
Correct.
Its by position and with team balance in mind.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Lods on January 11, 2025, 11:44:22 pm
I think that the app Kruddler linked encourages one to pick the best combination of 22 players rather than the 22 best players. At least, that’s how I approached selecting my best 22.
As much as I was impressed by Binnsy taking down Newey and his off season preparation, there’s no way that he’s best 25 or close to the fifth best winger.
Correct.
Its by position and with team balance in mind.
It's probably something we've stated in previous attempts at the exercise but perhaps it needs to be restated each time in the OP.
"We're looking at a team to take the field if everyone is fully fit."
I actually go through the list and pick my best 22 and if I can work a team with a semblance of balance around that I will.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: DJC on January 11, 2025, 11:50:43 pm
Perhaps you should make that clear before each poll.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: kruddler on January 12, 2025, 08:13:16 am
I do write this.... "Personally, i think its best to pick a SIDE using this..."
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Lods on January 12, 2025, 09:22:01 am
Ir's not a biggie Let's just make it clear for future polls we're picking a side not a best 22 ability wise.
In truth I've found there is actually not a lot of difference, and it comes down to a choice between a couple of players at the tail of the exercise.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Thryleon on January 12, 2025, 02:23:19 pm
Sorry I don't do that, I select names and count to 22 and then as I find blokes further down the list who haven't made it in, I pick them and then drop whomever.
Ultimately, i think my 22 would least be representative of a team that would field the team together so sorry I'm skewing things. I reckon I wouldn't have time to do it properly.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: kruddler on January 12, 2025, 03:19:52 pm
Sorry I don't do that, I select names and count to 22 and then as I find blokes further down the list who haven't made it in, I pick them and then drop whomever.
Ultimately, i think my 22 would least be representative of a team that would field the team together so sorry I'm skewing things. I reckon I wouldn't have time to do it properly.
With the link i provided, i find it quicker to use that to form a best 22 side than it would be to do it your way, but maybe thats just me.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: DJC on January 12, 2025, 07:13:52 pm
With the link i provided, i find it quicker to use that to form a best 22 side than it would be to do it your way, but maybe thats just me.
I find using that site makes the best 22 selection a lot simpler ... until you get to the interchange and have 6-8 players to squeeze into four spots ::)
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: pinot on January 12, 2025, 11:44:34 pm
*scratches head* Your answers seem to create further questions, not answer them.
Maybe someone else can point out the logic there.
I think it depends if you're picking a best 22 to play a match or the best 22 players on the list.
Binns might be your number 24-25 best player. But if you're picking for position he might be your second best wingman.
Yeah my line up consisted of experienced, hardened and tough bodies that go the distance for 22 rounds with zero youth exhuberance but you always need 2-3 of those floating around the edges of first team bonafides..
Unfortunately don't see any of these youngsters making 22under22 without opportunity. Apart from the usual suspects that are gifted games even after poor performances
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: ianh on February 14, 2025, 08:32:19 am
Realistically O Hollands Weitering Haynes Saad McGovern Boyd Acres Cripps Walsh Walsh McKay Williams Kemp Curnow Motlop De Koning Lord Smith Cerra Cottrell Docherty Hewett Moir
For those who think HOKBALL is some new magic formula I present this rant:
There are those who think HOKBALL shows that the game is now a game for speed and/or endurance athletes. As long as you have at least VFL level skill and extreme athleticism you will be a handful. This is what separates HOKBALL from conventional football as we have known it.
So what if we went a team of uber-athletes? No Weitering, no Cripps, no Docherty. Now of course you don't leave those sorts of players out in real life, but in real life injuries will reliably open up at least those 3 spots. If not, a rotation policy can be applied to prevent the athletes totally burning out from my new concept:
BluesBlitzFußall (TM pending).
Of course, you still need to keep structure, so atI have one Ruck-sized defender, another genuine KP-size defender and someone who can at least at a pinch play 3rd tall Then three marking and three crumbing targets up forward. A genuine ruck-sized ruckman, a relief ruck of genuine ruck height, some inside grunt on-ball and all the electric speed we can cram in.
So here it is, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN !!!!
My high-summer heat-stroke-induced run-em-off-their-feet and therefore unbeatable athletes 23 (with emergencies).
Let's see the piss-n-poo guernseys keep up with this lot:
Cowan-Monahan-O. Hollands Saad-McKay-Boyd Acres-Lord-Walsh Moir-Curnow-Williams Kemp-McGovern-Fantasia De Koning- Cincotta-Smith Binns-Cottrell-Wilson-Young (23rd player Duffy) Emergencies: Charleson-E. Hollands- O'Farrell
HOKBALL that you brown and gold pretenders!
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Thryleon on February 14, 2025, 08:54:22 am
Dont buy into the hokball hype. The Hawks have always had classy ball movers to play their game style, and have persisted doing something longer than most clubs do, where they blink and sack the coach and are reaping the benefits. They have taken players who have ability and had a good run with injury, and are playing passionate footy. Thats a winning formula and its why they fell short, because they were missing that 10% in quality at the key positions. Adding tom Barrass will help them allow Sicily more leeway than having to do it all, and if their younger key talls who kicked on last year repeat what they showed, they will be good again, without the bullcrap hype that was attached to a phrase called hokball.
Nothing too special in terms of football, but smart, and dedicated. Thats the key. Whenever we get beaten, I usually see what I like to call, dumb football being played, where players get sucked into a contest they should likely stay out of, or are so eager to add pressure, they do it, without regard for playing the percentages, resulting in getting scored against.
its why we lost to Geelong the first time last year, where players kept leaving their man, leaving a defensive outnumber, to pressure the ball carrier, and effectively took themselves out of the contest. You watch, hawthorn DONT do this.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 14, 2025, 03:16:22 pm
You have to have your own game style and not try and emulate or compete with other teams perfected game style. Trying to load up on too many quick players won't be any use if they can't get the ball or deliver it properly. Our game is a heavily congested style where our big coalface mids bully the opposition and dominate the clearances and get the ball to our two key forwards. I don't want to weaken that in favour of a outside running game and we need to set the agenda and game style not be forced into a high speed running game that suits other teams and who do it better anyway. We waste a lot of forward entries and should be concentrating on better finishing when we have momentum. Often those wasted opportunities lead to opposition rebound footy where they run the ball quickly forward and score and if we can tidy up our forward work then those pacy rebounds won't be so much of a problem.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: kruddler on February 14, 2025, 03:21:17 pm
You have to have your own game style and not try and emulate or compete with other teams perfected game style.
If you try and copy another team, you are always playing catchup and won't be as good at it. In the meantime, something completely different might become 'the new way' and you are left trying again.
Much better to play to your strengths and not play catchup elsewhere.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 14, 2025, 05:25:56 pm
You have to have your own game style and not try and emulate or compete with other teams perfected game style. Trying to load up on too many quick players won't be any use if they can't get the ball or deliver it properly. Our game is a heavily congested style where our big coalface mids bully the opposition and dominate the clearances and get the ball to our two key forwards. I don't want to weaken that in favour of a outside running game and we need to set the agenda and game style not be forced into a high speed running game that suits other teams and who do it better anyway. We waste a lot of forward entries and should be concentrating on better finishing when we have momentum. Often those wasted opportunities lead to opposition rebound footy where they run the ball quickly forward and score and if we can tidy up our forward work then those pacy rebounds won't be so much of a problem.
100% EB, re game plan you need to stay ahead of the pack not follow and emulate. Modern footy to me is a bit like gridiron (can;t believe I said that), you need a number of "plays" in the playbook to combat the oppositions strengths and weakness. Sure you have to have you own brand but that need to be tweaked from week to week, againgst some teams you need to slow it down, against others you need to run and gun. Against some teams you need to play a little tall, against others you a better off going a little smaller. Horses for courses and flexibility is what's needed.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: DJC on February 14, 2025, 05:55:13 pm
100% EB, re game plan you need to stay ahead of the pack not follow and emulate. Modern footy to me is a bit like gridiron (can;t believe I said that), you need a number of "plays" in the playbook to combat the oppositions strengths and weakness. Sure you have to have you own brand but that need to be tweaked from week to week, againgst some teams you need to slow it down, against others you need to run and gun. Against some teams you need to play a little tall, against others you a better off going a little smaller. Horses for courses and flexibility is what's needed.
Or you can just back yourself in and trust that your talent and execution will force the opposition to try play catch up footy.
Back when Lindsay Gaze was coaching the Melbourne Tigers, he was more than happy for other teams to use his "shuffle offence" because he was confident that no team could run it as well as his Tigers. Our 1995 team was a bit like that in that, as long as they were fully focused, they were simply better than everyone else at the game as it was played then.
We're not quite there yet, but with some tweaking of personnel and improving our transition, we could well be. As EB said, if we can be more efficient with our forward 50 entries, we will be playing to our strengths and making life a little easier for our defenders.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 15, 2025, 07:12:31 am
100% EB, re game plan you need to stay ahead of the pack not follow and emulate. Modern footy to me is a bit like gridiron (can;t believe I said that), you need a number of "plays" in the playbook to combat the oppositions strengths and weakness. Sure you have to have you own brand but that need to be tweaked from week to week, againgst some teams you need to slow it down, against others you need to run and gun. Against some teams you need to play a little tall, against others you a better off going a little smaller. Horses for courses and flexibility is what's needed.
Or you can just back yourself in and trust that your talent and execution will force the opposition to try play catch up footy.
Back when Lindsay Gaze was coaching the Melbourne Tigers, he was more than happy for other teams to use his "shuffle offence" because he was confident that no team could run it as well as his Tigers. Our 1995 team was a bit like that in that, as long as they were fully focused, they were simply better than everyone else at the game as it was played then.
We're not quite there yet, but with some tweaking of personnel and improving our transition, we could well be. As EB said, if we can be more efficient with our forward 50 entries, we will be playing to our strengths and making life a little easier for our defenders.
I get it, no point slamming in 21 goals if the oppo slam in 22. I still think we need to be more clever with the tactics employed against oppos with they have at their disposal on the list from year to year or even week to week. Opposition analysis is a massive thing and when maximised can be very powerful. Not letting them do what they do whilst doing what you do best is lethal. As long as we finished 1st and win the flag this year, Ill be happy.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: DJC on February 15, 2025, 10:14:17 am
I get it, no point slamming in 21 goals if the oppo slam in 22. I still think we need to be more clever with the tactics employed against oppos with they have at their disposal on the list from year to year or even week to week. Opposition analysis is a massive thing and when maximised can be very powerful. Not letting them do what they do whilst doing what you do best is lethal. As long as we finished 1st and win the flag this year, I’ll be happy.
I suspect that you won’t be the only happy supporter 🙂🤞
I don’t think that you can underestimate the importance of opposition analysis. Experimenting with Kempy playing a defensive role on Weiters suggests that we have looking ahead to the tactics that could be used against us and what we may use against others.
Negating opposition guns is obviously an opposition analyst’s objective. Figuring out how to exploit the opposition’s weaknesses should be equally important.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Shakin77 on February 16, 2025, 03:33:26 pm
Do we make anything of Z Williams playing across half back for the all-stars?
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: DJC on February 16, 2025, 03:47:59 pm
I didn't think the same thing, however he looked pretty good across half back.
Zac got thrown down back a few times last season and I think that versatility is something that Vossy values.
However, if our match sims are any guide, Zac is much better value as a forward, both for his aggressive, creative forward play and his defensive work when we lose possession.
I suspect we’ll see Zac in the backline from time to time and I think that we’ll finally see more productive midfield minutes from him, but his main gig will be as a medium forward.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Milhanna13 on February 17, 2025, 12:40:28 pm
We waste a lot of forward entries and should be concentrating on better finishing when we have momentum.
This
The number of times, over the past couple of years, that we dominate passages of play, and you look up, and 10mins later we have only kicked 1 goal from that domination. you need to put the foot on the oppo throat, when you are dominating. momentum can turn pretty quick, and if they capitlaise, after you didnt, then its all over
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: kruddler on February 17, 2025, 12:47:13 pm
Do we make anything of Z Williams playing across half back for the all-stars?
The all-stars always have a larger than normal number of small forward options available to them.
Not as many wise heads who have done their time at half back by comparison.
Zac is no spring chicken. He is holding a spot in the forward line until the new breed come through. We don't need him to do the same at half back because we have a few old heads there already, as well as some new kids coming through.
IMO Zac will still start forward with us. Injuries, form and circumstances may change that though.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: LordLucifer on February 17, 2025, 06:21:47 pm
I'm not going to suggest he is in our best line-up just yet but I reckon O'Keefe will get some senior games this year.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 17, 2025, 06:59:30 pm
Do we make anything of Z Williams playing across half back for the all-stars?
The all-stars always have a larger than normal number of small forward options available to them.
Not as many wise heads who have done their time at half back by comparison.
Zac is no spring chicken. He is holding a spot in the forward line until the new breed come through. We don't need him to do the same at half back because we have a few old heads there already, as well as some new kids coming through.
IMO Zac will still start forward with us. Injuries, form and circumstances may change that though.
Agree he will start forward, thats the only spot where we have been able to get a return out of him, he is a player who needs to be looked after imo as his biggest problem is being able to stay on the park and remain injury free. If he is wandering around half back or in the middle where he has to cover more ground and do more running then I could only see him aggravating his achilles and being back on the injury list.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: DJC on February 17, 2025, 07:31:34 pm
The all-stars always have a larger than normal number of small forward options available to them.
Not as many wise heads who have done their time at half back by comparison.
Zac is no spring chicken. He is holding a spot in the forward line until the new breed come through. We don't need him to do the same at half back because we have a few old heads there already, as well as some new kids coming through.
IMO Zac will still start forward with us. Injuries, form and circumstances may change that though.
Agree he will start forward, thats the only spot where we have been able to get a return out of him, he is a player who needs to be looked after imo as his biggest problem is being able to stay on the park and remain injury free. If he is wandering around half back or in the middle where he has to cover more ground and do more running then I could only see him aggravating his achilles and being back on the injury list.
Not sure that holds up EB. Like almost all forwards these days, Zac is continually running the length of the ground and he is definitely spending time in the midfield in the match sims. He is also involved in plenty of chains of possessions from halfback.
You can’t really “hide” an injury prone player in the modern game. Zac will either get through the season doing what’s expected of every other player … or he won’t 🤞
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: LP on February 17, 2025, 08:47:40 pm
Nowhere to hide or nurse injury prone players through a season anymore, there are too many opposition eyes on the tactical behaviour of opponents.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 17, 2025, 10:06:30 pm
Agree he will start forward, thats the only spot where we have been able to get a return out of him, he is a player who needs to be looked after imo as his biggest problem is being able to stay on the park and remain injury free. If he is wandering around half back or in the middle where he has to cover more ground and do more running then I could only see him aggravating his achilles and being back on the injury list.
Not sure that holds up EB. Like almost all forwards these days, Zac is continually running the length of the ground and he is definitely spending time in the midfield in the match sims. He is also involved in plenty of chains of possessions from halfback.
You can’t really “hide” an injury prone player in the modern game. Zac will either get through the season doing what’s expected of every other player … or he won’t 🤞
I think his history speaks for itself, he is injury prone and came to us with the expectation that we would see him play as a midfielder . That hasnt happened and match sims, preseason games don't prove anything as we need to see how he stands up in the regular season week to week vs real opposition and until he does that I consider him unreliable. We played Charlie Curnow injured for weeks so I don't agree with the theory the modern game doesn't allow that to happen..
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: DJC on February 18, 2025, 11:06:30 am
Not sure that holds up EB. Like almost all forwards these days, Zac is continually running the length of the ground and he is definitely spending time in the midfield in the match sims. He is also involved in plenty of chains of possessions from halfback.
You can’t really “hide” an injury prone player in the modern game. Zac will either get through the season doing what’s expected of every other player … or he won’t 🤞
I think his history speaks for itself, he is injury prone and came to us with the expectation that we would see him play as a midfielder . That hasnt happened and match sims, preseason games don't prove anything as we need to see how he stands up in the regular season week to week vs real opposition and until he does that I consider him unreliable. We played Charlie Curnow injured for weeks so I don't agree with the theory the modern game doesn't allow that to happen..
There's no doubt that Zac's reliability is questionable and 19 games last season was a good effort for him, particularly after he was caught up in our hamstring epidemic. However, there's absolutely no basis for suggesting that Zac was hidden away on the half forward flank last season and he won't be again this season. Yes, many players carry injuries into games but you can't protect a "fragile" player by exempting them from team defence and excusing them from transition running. The opposition would exploit that weakness.
Have a look at Zac's 2024 highlights and note how many times he is involved in the play in our defensive half.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj_5PU7FDsA
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: LP on February 18, 2025, 01:27:39 pm
However, there's absolutely no basis for suggesting that Zac was hidden away on the half forward flank last season and he won't be again this season.
Agreed, for me it's self-evident, if you try to hide somebody it would shoot the team in the foot as badly as someone being injured early in the game.
Once one team had exposed such a situation, they would all have it on the whiteboard from that day forward.
I suppose sometimes in fan discussions there can also be a confusion of inconsistency and deficiency, I see that whether through injury or not Zac Williams has at times been inconsistent, but he isn't incapable or deficient.
But we also know now he had a lot going on in his life, I can't blame him and I see him as more than capable, maybe he actually needs more credit given what he has been dealing with.
Pre-trade period the talk about Zac or Jack Martin wasn't really about capability but about carrying too many of a type, well that issue is resolved. There is some hold over from that debate that perhaps colours fan perceptions.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Professer E on February 19, 2025, 06:15:06 am
We had to hide him up forward because his efforts playing in defence were substandard and the club didn't have the stones to drop a big contract player at the time.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: LP on February 19, 2025, 02:34:47 pm
We had to hide him up forward because his efforts playing in defence were substandard and the club didn't have the stones to drop a big contract player at the time.
By that logic we derive the MC was happy to then deliberately weaken the F50 pushing more hurt onto the already injured Charlie Curnow and Harry McKay, etc., etc..
Seems a tad rubbery.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 19, 2025, 04:45:38 pm
We had to hide him up forward because his efforts playing in defence were substandard and the club didn't have the stones to drop a big contract player at the time.
By that logic we derive the MC was happy to then deliberately weaken the F50 pushing more hurt onto the already injured Charlie Curnow and Harry McKay, etc., etc..
Seems a tad rubbery.
His body was rubbery and with that generous contract the club tried every position to try and get a return out of him as well as finding a position where he had more chance of staying on the park. Forward is that position and Im happy to say he offers more than our other small spasmodic forwards and Id have more faith in him kicking 30 plus goals a season than I would the others.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: LP on February 19, 2025, 09:11:15 pm
His body was rubbery and with that generous contract the club tried every position to try and get a return out of him as well as finding a position where he had more chance of staying on the park.
Not a chance, it would make him a pariah with coaches and team-mates, maybe stuff like that went on before Cook replaced Liddle and before Sayers replaced LoGiudice, but not in 2024.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Blue Moon on February 20, 2025, 09:32:29 am
If Charlie is not available for round one I would go with Harry Lemmey over Pittonett. I think he is a better forward option and is capable in the ruck, especially around the ground with his marking which is not a Pittonett strength.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 20, 2025, 10:30:03 am
If Charlie is not available for round one I would go with Harry Lemmey over Pittonett. I think he is a better forward option and is capable in the ruck, especially around the ground with his marking which is not a Pittonett strength.
I agree, time to release the Lem
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 20, 2025, 06:01:03 pm
If Charlie is not available for round one I would go with Harry Lemmey over Pittonett. I think he is a better forward option and is capable in the ruck, especially around the ground with his marking which is not a Pittonett strength.
I agree, time to release the Lem
I would have signed Liam McMahon and gone with him in round 1, Lemmey would be my next choice.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 20, 2025, 09:47:32 pm
I would have signed Liam McMahon and gone with him in round 1, Lemmey would be my next choice.
Based on his form in the match sims, McMahon wouldn’t be much more effective than a witch’s hat. There’s no way that he could have been considered for a gig in Round 1.
Lemmey has made the most of his apprenticeship and has been winning contests against our first choice KPDs.
The only reservation I have about Lemmey is that he and Harry McKay are very similar in how they play. I guess that, provided they can keep out of each other’s way, it’s double trouble for the opposition defence.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 21, 2025, 12:28:07 am
I would have signed Liam McMahon and gone with him in round 1, Lemmey would be my next choice.
We need small fwds.
I think we have enough, it's more about the quality than quantity IMHO. We lack a tall specialist forward as well as a tall specialist backman imo and seem intent on pinch hitting with players like Kemp and JSOS. FrankieE to me is no improvement in quality and his CV is thin and that's being kind after getting the Khyber from two clubs and having 30 odd games of mediocre results at best.To me that SPP should have been a tall and Frank should have been earning his chance for the mid season draft by impressing in the VFL. McMahon kicked goals in the twos and was our best VFL player and I can't understand why he wasn't given a shot given his skill and talent . After showing Owies the door this move is sure to make supporters question what the recruiters are doing especially if Owies has success at WC..
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: kruddler on February 21, 2025, 07:31:47 am
I would have signed Liam McMahon and gone with him in round 1, Lemmey would be my next choice.
Based on his form in the match sims, McMahon wouldn’t be much more effective than a witch’s hat. There’s no way that he could have been considered for a gig in Round 1.
Lemmey has made the most of his apprenticeship and has been winning contests against our first choice KPDs.
The only reservation I have about Lemmey is that he and Harry McKay are very similar in how they play. I guess that, provided they can keep out of each other’s way, it’s double trouble for the opposition defence.
Witches hat or not, we cant pick a witches hat and if it's anything close to the injuries of last year we will need too.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 21, 2025, 07:43:33 am
I think we have enough, it's more about the quality than quantity IMHO. We lack a tall specialist forward as well as a tall specialist backman imo and seem intent on pinch hitting with players like Kemp and JSOS. FrankieE to me is no improvement in quality and his CV is thin and that's being kind after getting the Khyber from two clubs and having 30 odd games of mediocre results at best.To me that SPP should have been a tall and Frank should have been earning his chance for the mid season draft by impressing in the VFL. McMahon kicked goals in the twos and was our best VFL player and I can't understand why he wasn't given a shot given his skill and talent . After showing Owies the door this move is sure to make supporters question what the recruiters are doing especially if Owies has success at WC..
Brisbane won a premiership off the back of quality smalls who terrorised defences. Coll did the same in the their premiership year. We have Durdin, Motlop, Fantasia, Evans, Williams and at a pinch Fogarty (who plays a higher up the ground). Evans and maybe Fog aside, they are all a little injury prone and are extremely inconsistent. We would need all of them to have dynamite years to be a contender. I personally understood the Owies trade, teams were sniffing around and he was the only one with trade value (ie give something to get something). The trade was underpinned by the fact that the abovementioned cohort would finally produce something. I hope they do.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: kruddler on February 21, 2025, 07:51:49 am
We keep recruiting small forwards because ours are no good or too injury prone.
Now we are going to win a flag with that same group because brisbane did similar?
....and thats why we don't need backup for key forwards (or key backs) because we have so many small forwards?
Quantity does not equal quality.
The more crap we have on 1 position. The less talent we have in others.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Professer E on February 21, 2025, 08:48:55 am
Our small forwards WERE witches hats last year, other than the one we flicked.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 21, 2025, 05:13:04 pm
I think we have enough, it's more about the quality than quantity IMHO. We lack a tall specialist forward as well as a tall specialist backman imo and seem intent on pinch hitting with players like Kemp and JSOS. FrankieE to me is no improvement in quality and his CV is thin and that's being kind after getting the Khyber from two clubs and having 30 odd games of mediocre results at best.To me that SPP should have been a tall and Frank should have been earning his chance for the mid season draft by impressing in the VFL. McMahon kicked goals in the twos and was our best VFL player and I can't understand why he wasn't given a shot given his skill and talent . After showing Owies the door this move is sure to make supporters question what the recruiters are doing especially if Owies has success at WC..
Brisbane won a premiership off the back of quality smalls who terrorised defences. Coll did the same in the their premiership year. We have Durdin, Motlop, Fantasia, Evans, Williams and at a pinch Fogarty (who plays a higher up the ground). Evans and maybe Fog aside, they are all a little injury prone and are extremely inconsistent. We would need all of them to have dynamite years to be a contender. I personally understood the Owies trade, teams were sniffing around and he was the only one with trade value (ie give something to get something). The trade was underpinned by the fact that the abovementioned cohort would finally produce something. I hope they do.
GTC, I would argue why are we hanging onto that motley crew of smalls? given their injury prone ways and also lack of productivity. How does adding a non descript double cast off like Evans improve things? If we are using Brisbane as a guide we need to be looking at increasing our quality of small forwards rather than quantity and why wasnt this addressed in the trade period or the national draft if the list management team see it as more vital than providing KP cover?
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 22, 2025, 07:41:51 am
Brisbane won a premiership off the back of quality smalls who terrorised defences. Coll did the same in the their premiership year. We have Durdin, Motlop, Fantasia, Evans, Williams and at a pinch Fogarty (who plays a higher up the ground). Evans and maybe Fog aside, they are all a little injury prone and are extremely inconsistent. We would need all of them to have dynamite years to be a contender. I personally understood the Owies trade, teams were sniffing around and he was the only one with trade value (ie give something to get something). The trade was underpinned by the fact that the abovementioned cohort would finally produce something. I hope they do.
GTC, I would argue why are we hanging onto that motley crew of smalls? given their injury prone ways and also lack of productivity. How does adding a non descript double cast off like Evans improve things? If we are using Brisbane as a guide we need to be looking at increasing our quality of small forwards rather than quantity and why wasnt this addressed in the trade period or the national draft if the list management team see it as more vital than providing KP cover?
Last year they offloaded (finally) all the PP Hospital Ward lot. Unless they produce something spectacular, I'd guess there will be a some smaller fellas looking for new homes or careers come the end of 2025. My mail is we targeted an established small fwd (dont know who) in last years trade period but it didn't come off.
Title: Re: Pick your best 22 of 2025 - Part 1 - Pre-season
Post by: Baggers on February 22, 2025, 08:36:53 am
Reliable and dangerous small forwards? Seemingly, our weak link based on the last coupla years.
I find myself neither pessimistic or optimistic in relation to Motlop, Williams, Fogarty, Fantasia, Durdin and Evans. But this is the year that most of them need to present front and centre, or depart. Our small forward really are the missing piece for us, and it's a significant piece of any finals success formula.
In 2024 our delivery into the forward line was, let's be honest, pretty ordinary - kick it high and leave it to H and Charles, and later, Kempy. One dimensional and making any defender's job easier. We certainly got it in there often enough to kick bigger scores. On the occasions where mids considered their delivery into forward 50 (lowering the eyes ;D ), and small forwards made themselves leading options - we did better.
Then there was the reality of Motlop not having a proper pre season and never getting into gear in 2024. Thus far in 2025 he is looking much better. Then there was Fantasia in his first season at PP, with a suspect body and learning the ropes. Was very disappointing. His best is very good. Will we see that in 2025? Then there's Fog, injury interrupted his good, reliable form, but his role is primarily as a defensive small forward, which he does well. Then there's Zachary W moved into the forward line for a number of reasons. His 2024 forward craft? There were moments that were encouraging, but body reliability became an issue. For 2025 he's been training as a forward in the pre season. Reasonable to expect better. Then there's Durds. Injury curtailed him big time. We see hints, but as yet nothing to be confident about... plenty of teasing. Healthy body, good pre season for 2025? Has to be the make or break year. P155 or get off the pot. And Frankie Evans. Seems a blue collar, hard working, quick and strong defensive small forward.
So many ifs, buts and maybe's. Keeping my powder dry and remain neither pessimistic or optimistic... just hopeful.