Social Club => Blah-Blah Bar => Topic started by: Baggers on March 28, 2025, 12:52:05 pm
Title: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Baggers on March 28, 2025, 12:52:05 pm
Yes, I know some might think, 'Oh here we go again, Baggers on his mental health high horse preaching again.' But I believe it is bloody important right here, right now... especially considering the hurt and damage caused by the ignorant and rumour/speculation mongering on certain people and clubs dumped on social media. Ill-informed comments gets on my goat due to the damage they do. And they do, do damage and certainly serve no useful purpose. Please think of the consequences of your words on victims... who are already struggling.
Just yesterday afternoon I speaking with a close mate, Bluebagger of course, and he started ranting about AFL players and drugs (and associated rumours - naming a few at our club and other club) and that these players needing to harden up, are obviously weak or stupid. And he intended to go for it on a footy forum (not ours). Because he's a good mate, I didn't hold back (my ire was up!!) and gave him a forceful education on mental illness... the reality of addictions, personal issues and so on and that are NOT willful, deliberate choices (to sabotage one's life), nor a sign of person weakness (makes my blood boil, that shallow assumption), but rather results of unique circumstances, difficult and sometimes traumatic events resulting in fair-dinkum and serious challenges. I asked my mate, again pretty forcefully to please think of the consequences of your words on victims... who are already struggling enough. And that if he can't be bothered understanding clinical reasons for addiction, anxiety disorders (a huge spectrum), depressive illnesses and the like, then shut up and focus on empathy and support for the individual rather than poorly informed and destructive comments / judgements. Then, I'm glad to say he started asking some pretty good questions... eventually, and did not make the post he intended.
I know what it is like to be actually incapable of doing my job due to a mental health trauma/issues. It's fckn real, this mental health stuff, and NEVER a statement or indication of how strong or not so strong we are.
Rant over.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: LP on March 28, 2025, 01:26:45 pm
I know what it is like to be actually incapable of doing my job due to a mental health trauma/issues. It's fckn real, this mental health stuff, and NEVER a statement or indication of how strong or not so strong we are.
Not trivialising your post, but as an aside has anybody watching Rogue Heroes on SBS?
We get a little insight into how the hardest of the hard can be broken by stuff outside of their control. It's a theme repeated right through a series dedicated to the first ever SAS Regiment, these are group of possible lunatics and misfits who in a much more brutal era gave hard a whole new definition.
I didn't serve in Vietnam but I've mates who did, it's amazing what affects them, it's not at all the stuff people think, and I have to assume such issues can be as diverse in real life. I have a mate who gets triggered by someone stepping on a flower, or seeing a flower that has been trodden on like those burnt offerings in Indonesia, of all the stuff he did and saw in war it's the memory of flowers on the pavement crushed by the boots of troops or civilians that he can't deal with. It starts off with a simple question in his head, "How f#$k@n hard is it to walk around a flower?", and escalates from there! It's sort of a cry of despair at the state of the planet that he can't communicate, like a thought that if that is the best we can do what hope is there!
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Lods on March 28, 2025, 02:01:22 pm
@ Baggers Great Post Sadly, the format of this place only allows me to give your post one 'like' at a time. ;)
It's something that back in the day wasn't talked about...a bit like the related domestic violence issues. There was a burden, on men particularly, to not display any vulnerability. The rise of social media has placed a whole extra burden on folks of all ages. Rumours and speculation often swirl when there is a void of information. Something written in one place is referenced as fact in another and the whole thing just snowballs. Now put yourself in the place of the target of those rumours and coping is a huge challenge Players being told to stay away from social media is on the surface good advice...but it's impossible to avoid.
I do understand how folks can be dismissive of stress and mental illness if they haven't been affected by it, or touched by it through friends or family. Footballers particularly have been held to a higher level of "toughness" But resilience on a football field is an easy task compared to the challenges life sometimes presents.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: kruddler on March 28, 2025, 02:10:14 pm
The idea of 'mental health is something that seems to piss off AFL fans because the clubs and media use it for deflection of things they don't want to talk about.
Whether its sexual assault, drugs, drinking, fighting, stealing, breaking up with your missus, cheating with a mates missus, pulling a gun....whatever it is, it's 'mental health' each and every time.
No I'm not saying mental health cannot be a factor, but it is being used as a get out of jail free card at every opportunity to cover things up. People are wise to that and not having it.
It's a fine line and one that can be drawn wherever you want it to be.
I've said similar in regards to murder and the insanity defense. People who are not in the right frame of mind can plead temporary insanity. The counter argument to that is, can someone in their right frame of mind actually commit murder. Surely the act means they are not.
So it's a fine line as I said. I support harry and whoever else, but I'm against the misdirection from the afl when they constantly play the mental health card at every issue.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: DJC on March 28, 2025, 02:30:50 pm
Great post Baggers!
Interestingly, our club put Harry's withdrawal from the Hawthorn game down to "illness" in an attempt to shield him from the likely response to a mental health absence; and we're seeing just what that can look like now.
While Harry does have an illness, it's not one that can be cured by a course of antibiotics.
Plenty of current and past Carlton players who have spoken openly about their mental health battles and Jake Edwards' story is one of several stories that's well worth reading:
The [mental health] illness reared it head a couple of years later, when Edwards had left Carlton and was training with the Western Bulldogs, hoping to be picked up in the AFL draft.
Despite promises from the club, he was overlooked, ending his career and sending him spiralling — eventually leading to an attempt to take his own life.
"I had a trigger in a relationship which led me down a four-day drug-and-alcohol-fuelled bender, and that led to an attempt on my own life one morning," he said.
Yes, mental health may be used in reference to many situations involving alcohol, drugs, and poor behaviour but it's usually a mental health issue that leads to that behaviour.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Lods on March 28, 2025, 02:32:22 pm
We probably need to make a distinction between 'personal issues' and 'mental health' issues
With personal issues....Lose a close family member and you probably need a week or two of grieving. If you have some sudden financial hardhip and it can unsettle a routine. Your focus will be off, and there may be things you need to do that will take up some time. It could even be an extended time in the case of someone with a terminal illness.
The mental health issues are more complex, and not as easily identified. Moments of clarity and coping aren't fixed. The response to those feelings can be all over the shop. You may be feeling depressed for no identifiable reason or alternatively something might trigger an episode (as LP described above).
A relationship breakdown is more a personal issue. Something like an addiction probably sits more in the mental health area
But one can lead to another and a personal issue can also have greater impact on someone already suffering from mental health issues.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: DJC on March 28, 2025, 02:38:00 pm
We probably need to make a distinction between 'personal issues' and 'mental health' issues
With personal issues....Lose a close family member and you probably need a week or two of grieving. If you have some sudden financial hardhip and it can unsettle a routine. Your focus will be off, and there may be things you need to do that will take up some time. It could even be an extended time in the case of someone with a terminal illness.
The mental health issues are more complex, and not as easily identified. Moments of clarity and coping aren't fixed. The repsonse to those feelings can be all over the shop. You may be feeling depressed for no identifiable reason or alternatively something might trigger an episode (as LP described above).
A relationship breakdown is more a personal issue. Something like an addiction probably sits more in the mental health area
But one can lead to another and a personal issue can also have greater impact on someone already suffering from mental health issues.
Yes, but see the Jake Edwards story that I referred to above. A relationship breakdown triggered a existing mental health condition and led to a suicide attempt.
We know that Harry has had ongoing mental health issues, thanks to his willingness to share that information with supporters, but we don't know whether whatever is behind his current situation has triggered another bout of anxiety.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: LP on March 28, 2025, 02:59:25 pm
We know that Harry has had ongoing mental health issues, thanks to his willingness to share that information with supporters, but we don't know whether whatever is behind his current situation has triggered another bout of anxiety.
If this stuff was so easy to deal with Harry would be in the clear, proof that it isn't so easy to deal with is that Harry studies psychology.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Baggers on March 28, 2025, 03:42:04 pm
The idea of 'mental health is something that seems to piss off AFL fans because the clubs and media use it for deflection of things they don't want to talk about.
Whether its sexual assault, drugs, drinking, fighting, stealing, breaking up with your missus, cheating with a mates missus, pulling a gun....whatever it is, it's 'mental health' each and every time.
No I'm not saying mental health cannot be a factor, but it is being used as a get out of jail free card at every opportunity to cover things up. People are wise to that and not having it.
It's a fine line and one that can be drawn wherever you want it to be.
I've said similar in regards to murder and the insanity defense. People who are not in the right frame of mind can plead temporary insanity. The counter argument to that is, can someone in their right frame of mind actually commit murder. Surely the act means they are not.
So it's a fine line as I said. I support harry and whoever else, but I'm against the misdirection from the afl when they constantly play the mental health card at every issue.
Fair points, K. But let me you assure you that most mental health professions suss out those using 'mental health' as a contrived excuse after (often after simply reading symptoms on Google) in pretty quick time. Some might think they can fake an anxiety disorder, and / or depressive illness symptoms (and other issues) but there are plenty of non-verbal indicators/tells and those boxes can be ticked off pretty quickly.
Addiction issues are pretty difficult to conceal and eventually the results of the addiction have such a severe impact on the addicts life, and those around them, that it's blatantly obvious. And eventually requires the addict to be honest with themselves and those close to them... then seek help. I vividly recall the moment I admitted to myself I had a problem, a severe problem (as many addicts do) and made an appt, through the Doc's referral, to a psychologist specializing in addiction. On my first appt, as true as I'm sitting here typing this, I looked the psychologist right in the eyes after she asked how she could help, and I said, word for word, "My life is f**ked. I have an addiction, which is ruining everything." Not an approach for everyone. She sat back and said a little awkwardly, "Okay, right, umm..." Then she started gathering info. Clean for decades now. Smartest thing I did was be honest with myself, then be committed to doing something about it. Not uncommon for anyone with mental health issues (mine - PTSD) to self-medicate... a very destructive way to deal with/avoidthe issue.
And to repeat a piece of my opening missive - getting on social media and making assumptions and negative judgements about someone struggling with an addiction and/or other mental health issue(s) tells the reader that you're ignorant pr*ck content to add to the stigma.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: PaulP on March 28, 2025, 04:29:55 pm
I sincerely hope that both the public and mental health professionals are extremely careful when dealing with these cases, and start off being trustful and as benign as possible, giving people the BOD and really only letting cynicism rule down the line, and then only as a last resort. The amount of damage done to genuine cases simply based on vibes and upfront suspicions of deception would dwarf the people caught out pretending IMO
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: kruddler on March 28, 2025, 06:00:16 pm
The idea of 'mental health is something that seems to piss off AFL fans because the clubs and media use it for deflection of things they don't want to talk about.
Whether its sexual assault, drugs, drinking, fighting, stealing, breaking up with your missus, cheating with a mates missus, pulling a gun....whatever it is, it's 'mental health' each and every time.
No I'm not saying mental health cannot be a factor, but it is being used as a get out of jail free card at every opportunity to cover things up. People are wise to that and not having it.
It's a fine line and one that can be drawn wherever you want it to be.
I've said similar in regards to murder and the insanity defense. People who are not in the right frame of mind can plead temporary insanity. The counter argument to that is, can someone in their right frame of mind actually commit murder. Surely the act means they are not.
So it's a fine line as I said. I support harry and whoever else, but I'm against the misdirection from the afl when they constantly play the mental health card at every issue.
Fair points, K. But let me you assure you that most mental health professions suss out those using 'mental health' as a contrived excuse after (often after simply reading symptoms on Google) in pretty quick time. Some might think they can fake an anxiety disorder, and / or depressive illness symptoms (and other issues) but there are plenty of non-verbal indicators/tells and those boxes can be ticked off pretty quickly.
Addiction issues are pretty difficult to conceal and eventually the results of the addiction have such a severe impact on the addicts life, and those around them, that it's blatantly obvious. And eventually requires the addict to be honest with themselves and those close to them... then seek help. I vividly recall the moment I admitted to myself I had a problem, a severe problem (as many addicts do) and made an appt, through the Doc's referral, to a psychologist specializing in addiction. On my first appt, as true as I'm sitting here typing this, I looked the psychologist right in the eyes after she asked how she could help, and I said, word for word, "My life is f**ked. I have an addiction, which is ruining everything." Not an approach for everyone. She sat back and said a little awkwardly, "Okay, right, umm..." Then she started gathering info. Clean for decades now. Smartest thing I did was be honest with myself, then be committed to doing something about it. Not uncommon for anyone with mental health issues (mine - PTSD) to self-medicate... a very destructive way to deal with/avoidthe issue.
And to repeat a piece of my opening missive - getting on social media and making assumptions and negative judgements about someone struggling with an addiction and/or other mental health issue(s) tells the reader that you're ignorant pr*ck content to add to the stigma.
Not sure if I was clear enough or not. My issue is not with the players. My issue is not with the doctors. My issue is with the 'media', marketing and brand spin doctors. They are the one who twist a potential bad problem (as listed earlier - non mental health specific) into a 'mental health issue' that flips the script on how things are viewed. eg.....Someone likes a drink, goes out and punches on with someone, gets locked up. It might be a one off that could happen to anyone when they have 1 too many. Now the club and media don't want this to get out and 'ruin the brand' so they say he is taking some time away for mental health. Instead of everyone calling him out for bad behaviour and being a d!ck, he now gets sympathy and the club come out of it smelling like roses. Thats the issue.
Now, i'm not saying that is the same as someone who is a full blown alcoholic who has an addiction.
But tell me the media will distinguish between the 2.
THAT is my issue. Its reflects badly on people like yourself, my wife and mates, who do suffer from such things.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Baggers on March 28, 2025, 06:26:36 pm
Fair points, K. But let me you assure you that most mental health professions suss out those using 'mental health' as a contrived excuse after (often after simply reading symptoms on Google) in pretty quick time. Some might think they can fake an anxiety disorder, and / or depressive illness symptoms (and other issues) but there are plenty of non-verbal indicators/tells and those boxes can be ticked off pretty quickly.
Addiction issues are pretty difficult to conceal and eventually the results of the addiction have such a severe impact on the addicts life, and those around them, that it's blatantly obvious. And eventually requires the addict to be honest with themselves and those close to them... then seek help. I vividly recall the moment I admitted to myself I had a problem, a severe problem (as many addicts do) and made an appt, through the Doc's referral, to a psychologist specializing in addiction. On my first appt, as true as I'm sitting here typing this, I looked the psychologist right in the eyes after she asked how she could help, and I said, word for word, "My life is f**ked. I have an addiction, which is ruining everything." Not an approach for everyone. She sat back and said a little awkwardly, "Okay, right, umm..." Then she started gathering info. Clean for decades now. Smartest thing I did was be honest with myself, then be committed to doing something about it. Not uncommon for anyone with mental health issues (mine - PTSD) to self-medicate... a very destructive way to deal with/avoidthe issue.
And to repeat a piece of my opening missive - getting on social media and making assumptions and negative judgements about someone struggling with an addiction and/or other mental health issue(s) tells the reader that you're ignorant pr*ck content to add to the stigma.
Not sure if I was clear enough or not. My issue is not with the players. My issue is not with the doctors. My issue is with the 'media', marketing and brand spin doctors. They are the one who twist a potential bad problem (as listed earlier - non mental health specific) into a 'mental health issue' that flips the script on how things are viewed. eg.....Someone likes a drink, goes out and punches on with someone, gets locked up. It might be a one off that could happen to anyone when they have 1 too many. Now the club and media don't want this to get out and 'ruin the brand' so they say he is taking some time away for mental health. Instead of everyone calling him out for bad behaviour and being a d!ck, he now gets sympathy and the club come out of it smelling like roses. Thats the issue.
Now, i'm not saying that is the same as someone who is a full blown alcoholic who has an addiction.
But tell me the media will distinguish between the 2.
THAT is my issue. Its reflects badly on people like yourself, my wife and mates, who do suffer from such things.
Gotcha.
Yep, there are sections of the media, political arena and wider community, who absolutely do label/manipulate illegal acts and even thuggery into a mental health phony diagnosis/reason to escape and even excuse these behaviours. And it p155es me off too. They'll come undone in the end and it'll look even worse... but damage to legitimate mental health cases have been done. Good call, K.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 28, 2025, 06:55:13 pm
IMO opinion, right or wrong, poor life choices are not mental health issues.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: kruddler on March 28, 2025, 06:58:40 pm
Not sure if I was clear enough or not. My issue is not with the players. My issue is not with the doctors. My issue is with the 'media', marketing and brand spin doctors. They are the one who twist a potential bad problem (as listed earlier - non mental health specific) into a 'mental health issue' that flips the script on how things are viewed. eg.....Someone likes a drink, goes out and punches on with someone, gets locked up. It might be a one off that could happen to anyone when they have 1 too many. Now the club and media don't want this to get out and 'ruin the brand' so they say he is taking some time away for mental health. Instead of everyone calling him out for bad behaviour and being a d!ck, he now gets sympathy and the club come out of it smelling like roses. Thats the issue.
Now, i'm not saying that is the same as someone who is a full blown alcoholic who has an addiction.
But tell me the media will distinguish between the 2.
THAT is my issue. Its reflects badly on people like yourself, my wife and mates, who do suffer from such things.
Gotcha.
Yep, there are sections of the media, political arena and wider community, who absolutely do label/manipulate illegal acts and even thuggery into a mental health phony diagnosis/reason to escape and even excuse these behaviours. And it p155es me off too. They'll come undone in the end and it'll look even worse... but damage to legitimate mental health cases have been done. Good call, K.
You used a word there that i think is key to this. Diagnosis.
Not that there needs to be something made public, but that is the key. Who is actually diagnosed with an issue, and who is/was simply having a bad day? I guarantee a reporter does not ask what a player has been diagnosed with when they report upon 'mental health' issues.....but they are all treated the same.
Perhaps there should be some more transparency with these issues.
If a player is injured, we know if its a knee, an ankle a rib. Ultimately it doesn't really matter what it is, but we are told. If a player has 'mental health' that could mean anything from career over to be back at training tomorrow. If we know its anxiety, depression, addiction, bi-polar......whatever, that is useful for a couple of reasons.
1. It gives us an insight into what that means in terms of a return. 2. It can create some sympathy and understanding to the player 3. It destigmatises the issue and allows the player, the club and the community a way to work through this together.
I doubt it will happen, but it will pull back the curtain on what 'mental health' actually is.....and legitimise it........and eliminate the spin doctoring.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: kruddler on March 28, 2025, 06:59:47 pm
IMO opinion, right or wrong, poor life choices are not mental health issues.
Gary Lyon had 'mental health' issues when he got busted with Billy Brownless' missus.
I'm sure he felt bad. I'm sure his whole world was tipped upside down. To me, that is not mental health, that is consequences.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Lods on March 28, 2025, 07:27:54 pm
Does the media use the term 'mental health' issues that often when referring to players?
'Personal issues' seems to me the more encompassing terminology that both the media and clubs use. And that's used as a pretty broad brush that seems to cover players with addiction, personal and relationship problems and behavioural issues.
The problem is that is so unspecific, and the player does have their right to privacy. It then opens it up to a range of rumour and speculation with some folks usually declaring "I know for a fact...." what the problem is.
And you can bet your bottom dollar that "fact" gets a run on multiple social media platforms....which further compounds the problem for the player.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: kruddler on March 28, 2025, 07:38:01 pm
Does the media use the term 'mental health' issues that often when referring to players?
'Personal issues' seems to me the more encompassing terminology that both the media and clubs use. And that's used as a pretty broad brush that seems to cover players with addiction, personal and relationship problems and behavioural issues.
The problem is that is so unspecific, and the player does have their right to privacy. It then opens it up to a range of rumour and speculation with some folks usually declaring "I know for a fact...." what the problem is.
And you can bet your bottom dollar that "fact" gets a run on multiple social media platforms....which further compounds the problem for the player.
I think 'mental health' and 'personal issues' are somewhat interchangeable from the media....and thats a large part of the problem, there is no distinction, no diagnosis, no accountability.
Yes, there is privacy and thats why i don't think it will ever come in.....but if it did....it would solve a lot of problems.
Of course when i think of privacy from players, i'm immediately drawn to AFLPA agreeing to extra drug testing with no penalities as long as there is privacy. The requirement for privacy is being abused.
In the NFL, they are paid VERY well, and as a result, they give up most of their privacy. Their salaries are public, their discretions are made public, there drug issues are made public.
Perhaps if we want to pay these human beings large quantities of cash for playing a game they would probably pay for free, they may have to give up something in return.....a degree of privacy. If the rules were changed, then players would always have the choice of playing AFL footy or not before choosing that life path comes with pros and cons and they can choose to NOT take that path if privacy is that important to them.
Currently players are running the AFL.......and we have more 'issues' than ever before. Perhaps we take back some of the power and help the community by destigmatising these issues and reporting them more accurately and stop covering up player indescretions in the process.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Baggers on March 28, 2025, 07:57:42 pm
IMO opinion, right or wrong, poor life choices are not mental health issues.
Sorry GTC, way too black and white and simplistic. I guess you would condemn me for my poor choice of addiction/alcoholism when trying to escape the horrible memories of what I saw in a war zone - PTSD, so am I a weak pr*ck for the poor choice of escaping through grog? The word 'choice' assumes complete total and healthy awareness of everything... including every possible consequence. Never met a person who could do that.
First question to ask when someone makes a poor life choice is why? Not abuse, condemn, judge and dismiss them. We are still learning about the human mind/psychology, emotions and spirituality.
A mental health issue mistake does NOT mean excuse. Never has been, never will be. It's all about reason. Education and understanding give us a much better insight into how to address issues and hence deal with them and grow & heal.
And man, how big is this term 'mental health.' What does it mean? What exactly is mental health v mental illness? In many cultures being gay is a mental illness - a bad choice punishable by death! Sheesh, a global leader, Elon Musk, recently announced that empathy is a weakness! FFS.
A simple example. A clown cuts off an angry bloke in traffic. The angry bloke gets out and beats the shizen out of the other bloke. Do we excuse the angry bloke because he's depressed over his missus rooting another bloke? No. He gets punished AND he gets meaningful treatment for his depression so he doesn't do it again!
I'd better stop now as I feel a rant/lecture coming on
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 28, 2025, 08:51:56 pm
IMO opinion, right or wrong, poor life choices are not mental health issues.
Sorry GTC, way too black and white and simplistic.
Sorry Baggers, that's me in a nutshell, black and white and simplistic.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Thryleon on March 29, 2025, 12:15:19 am
I had the misfortune of sitting near the interchange down near the boundary.
Footy fans are disgraceful.
No wonder playing for teams performing badly sees players in a rut they can't break out of. There is plenty of "feedback" for the players.
Something is up at the club though. The body language between the two benches at 3/4 time was palpable from even both sets of the club doctors, water carriers physios etc. All of the doggies were way more up and about.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 29, 2025, 12:21:57 am
I had the misfortune of sitting near the interchange down near the boundary.
Footy fans are disgraceful.
No wonder playing for teams performing badly sees players in a rut they can't break out of. There is plenty of "feedback" for the players.
Something is up at the club though. The body language between the two benches at 3/4 time was palpable from the club doctors, water carriers physios etc. All of them were way more up and about.
I heard Cooney speak about this passionately on radio this arvo. He made a good point about the bronx cheers Ben McKay was receiving last night saying what fan thinks going to the game and booing or bronx cheering your own player is going to have a constructive outcome?
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Professer E on March 29, 2025, 08:46:27 am
How about our mental health... Thirty years welded on to the most depressing relationship, supporting this f****d up exercise. Joke coaching. Joke list management. Joke selections. Joke fitness regime. Keep wheeling out the same crap trucks who don't deliver week after week. Same players making the same mistakes.
Supporting Carlton is an abusive relationship.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Thryleon on March 29, 2025, 09:29:58 am
How about our mental health... Thirty years welded on to the most depressing relationship, supporting this f****d up exercise. Joke coaching. Joke list management. Joke selections. Joke fitness regime. Keep wheeling out the same crap trucks who don't deliver week after week. Same players making the same mistakes.
Supporting Carlton is an abusive relationship.
mate, I empathise whole heartedly.
All I can offer you is perspective. People wonder why do bad things happen to people. Why do they get sick. Why do people die young.
I think this is nature (or if you are religious Gods) way of teaching everyone perspective and how we should be greatful for the good, and recognise the bad for what they are.
It's just footy.
I attended a funeral of a 49 year old woman 2 weeks ago. Her husband is a relative of mine. His mum passed away at the same age when he was still a youngster. He had the misfortune of finding his dad dead in bed a few years later. So orphaned as a pre teen/teenager, he and his older brother were effectively raised by my uncle and aunty.
If he can find the strength to continue living life in the face of adversity, then we must remember its just footy.
Whilst our players frustrate the hell out of me at times these are all young men, playing football. If some of the fan noise and yelling I hear was said to a child of mine, I don't know how I'd react.
It's just footy. It's been a hard time, but thats what made the last couple of seasons so worthwhile. Stick fat the wheel will turn.
I too am impatient, but the one thing that I learned out of 2012 was that impatience can lead to catastrophe and sometimes understanding where you're at is more important than worrying about where you aren't.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Professer E on March 29, 2025, 09:40:29 am
We've stuck fat for 30 years. Our window has closed. We're looking at another rebuild. Another ten years. Ar least.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: kruddler on March 29, 2025, 10:10:59 am
We've stuck fat for 30 years. Our window has closed. We're looking at another rebuild. Another ten years. Ar least.
The only thing we stuck fat to over the past 30 years is knee jerk reactions. That is why we've seen what we've seen.
Break the cycle and stop with the sack the coach BS. Sack the recruiters who have hamstrung who the coach can actually pick! That's where the issue is.
I said at the time but the selling the farm for Jagga was ridiculous and counter productive.
Hawks are laughing their butts off at the moment with our 1st round pick next year. Meanwhile we got nothing but hopes and dreams to show for it.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Lods on March 29, 2025, 10:15:08 am
Let's keep the thread on track. ;) We have a number of other threads to discuss the mental impact on long suffering football supporters.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: PaulP on March 29, 2025, 11:02:17 am
I think intimately tethering your mental health to the fortunes of your football club is a lose-lose relationship, not helpful for supporters and not helpful for players / coaches etc. By all means ride the bumps, the highs / lows etc, but if you're adversely affecting your own health and the health of the players and others, then it's time to re calibrate, give up on AFL or support a different team. We don't want any more Jason Castagnas who are bullied out of the game (mostly based on ignorance), and we don't want any more supporters whose lives are adversely affected.
IMO, every AFL club is a complex system. There's actually very little that coaches etc. players can control. Rather than the outdated machine / parts model used to understand clubs, we need to shift to more adaptive models, that more accurately reflect reality.
If we don't have access to all the facts, we should suspend both judgment and condemnation.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: crashlander on March 30, 2025, 07:18:17 pm
Apparently both H and Elijah played in a rescheduled VFL practice match yesterday. Both got through. Elijah was apparently somewhat rusty and not in contention for a while yet. The news on H was more positive. To be honest, no matter how much I'd like to have both guys available, I hope they are in a better place first and foremost.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Thryleon on March 30, 2025, 07:49:01 pm
Keep him away from the team until we start winning. I shudder to think the pile on and what it will do to him if he fails to perform, it costs us a game, and he doesn't strike me as a player that thrives under pressure.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: kruddler on March 30, 2025, 07:57:13 pm
Apparently both H and Elijah played in a rescheduled VFL practice match yesterday. Both got through. Elijah was apparently somewhat rusty and not in contention for a while yet. The news on H was more positive. To be honest, no matter how much I'd like to have both guys available, I hope they are in a better place first and foremost.
Agree. Don't want to force them to play simply because of our win/loss record. Only pick them when they are ready. Otherwise we risk losing them both again.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: bobby on March 30, 2025, 10:18:18 pm
How about our mental health... Thirty years welded on to the most depressing relationship, supporting this f****d up exercise. Joke coaching. Joke list management. Joke selections. Joke fitness regime. Keep wheeling out the same crap trucks who don't deliver week after week. Same players making the same mistakes.
Supporting Carlton is an abusive relationship.
mate, I empathise whole heartedly.
All I can offer you is perspective. People wonder why do bad things happen to people. Why do they get sick. Why do people die young.
I think this is nature (or if you are religious Gods) way of teaching everyone perspective and how we should be greatful for the good, and recognise the bad for what they are.
It's just footy.
I attended a funeral of a 49 year old woman 2 weeks ago. Her husband is a relative of mine. His mum passed away at the same age when he was still a youngster. He had the misfortune of finding his dad dead in bed a few years later. So orphaned as a pre teen/teenager, he and his older brother were effectively raised by my uncle and aunty.
If he can find the strength to continue living life in the face of adversity, then we must remember its just footy.
Whilst our players frustrate the hell out of me at times these are all young men, playing football. If some of the fan noise and yelling I hear was said to a child of mine, I don't know how I'd react.
It's just footy. It's been a hard time, but thats what made the last couple of seasons so worthwhile. Stick fat the wheel will turn.
I too am impatient, but the one thing that I learned out of 2012 was that impatience can lead to catastrophe and sometimes understanding where you're at is more important than worrying about where you aren't.
I checked yesterday and today and the sun still came up. It’s just a game. I have long suffering family members who aren’t old enough like some of us to enjoy seeing the cup raised. I keep telling them that it’s just a game.
We know that players from the bygone era had their demons, and some have come forward in recent times. Sadly some have taken it a step further. The problem is not a new one, it’s been around forever, it’s just we are more aware than ever about today and thankfully those who need help have better avenues than ever.
These lads earn huge money, completely disproportionate to the overwhelming majority of the community especially for their age. This builds expectation on them and envy in others. When there’re selected high in the draft expectations are set. The regime they apply to themselves in the attempt to get drafted can be off the charts. They don’t lives the life of their peers. Social media is a f*&#ing emotional blowtorch.
I think this modern age exacerbates this problem that has existed forever, and it frustrates the hell out of me that it feels like there is no unwinding where we are now.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Baggers on March 31, 2025, 10:07:55 am
Nice work, Bobby. Really healthy perspective.
Loved the 'social media is a f*****g emotional blowtorch comment. I just don't get how the owners of these social media platforms get away with such poor and irresponsible control of content.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: northernblue on March 31, 2025, 11:26:37 am
Loved the 'social media is a f*****g emotional blowtorch comment. I just don't get how the owners of these social media platforms get away with such poor and irresponsible control of content.
When Elon & Zucc’s worlds turn upside down they might be (self) interested in changing that but don’t hold your breath.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Baggers on March 31, 2025, 01:04:36 pm
Loved the 'social media is a f*****g emotional blowtorch comment. I just don't get how the owners of these social media platforms get away with such poor and irresponsible control of content.
When Elon & Zucc’s worlds turn upside down they might be (self) interested in changing that but don’t hold your breath.
Musk has already declared that he sees empathy as a weakness. I'd only expect the worst from this bloke, and he'll probably find a way to go even lower.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: PaulP on March 31, 2025, 01:54:23 pm
Musk has already declared that he sees empathy as a weakness. I'd only expect the worst from this bloke, and he'll probably find a way to go even lower.
It's actually a real issue across the right wing spectrum. Crapping on empathy is all over social media, like the hottest ticket in town.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Baggers on March 31, 2025, 03:31:48 pm
Musk has already declared that he sees empathy as a weakness. I'd only expect the worst from this bloke, and he'll probably find a way to go even lower.
It's actually a real issue across the right wing spectrum. Crapping on empathy is all over social media, like the hottest ticket in town.
Yep, I have encountered this breath-taking failure within small but powerful and influential individuals myself. There are clinical diagnoses for these sad folks - narcissism chief among them.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 31, 2025, 04:07:24 pm
Musk has already declared that he sees empathy as a weakness. I'd only expect the worst from this bloke, and he'll probably find a way to go even lower.
It's actually a real issue across the right wing spectrum. Crapping on empathy is all over social media, like the hottest ticket in town.
I dont see it as a right wing thing, just turds of people in general.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: PaulP on March 31, 2025, 04:37:50 pm
I dont see it as a right wing thing, just turds of people in general.
Actually, the research does show that right wing authoritarianism is closely connected with a lack of empathy.
I'm not even close to being an expert, but cognitive scientists, evolutionary psychologists, neuroscientists and others have done a lot of work in this area, mostly under the broad umbrella of the Theory Of Mind.
In very general and crude terms, people on the right push a type of empathy called Parochial Empathy, which favors and prioritizes the dominant, in group, at the expense of other, out groups. If this type of empathy becomes too acute, and if it is not at least paired with a more general type of empathy, which treats all groups fairly, social cohesion breaks down. The more general type of empathy is one of the main drivers in the development and perseverance of large human societies and civilization.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: LP on March 31, 2025, 08:50:07 pm
In very general and crude terms, people on the right push a type of empathy called Parochial Empathy, which favors and prioritizes the dominant, in group, at the expense of other, out groups. If this type of empathy becomes too acute, and if it is not at least paired with a more general type of empathy, which treats all groups fairly, social cohesion breaks down. The more general type of empathy is one of the main drivers in the development and perseverance of large human societies and civilization.
The bulk of our typical population, excluding the extreme right, sense this without having the vocabulary to describe it so they stay shtum, it's beaten into the out groups starting in primary school.
What I completely fail to understand about the American condition is why so many of the obviously out subscribe to those who are on the in, the outs seem so oblivious that they all think they are in! :o
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: crashlander on April 02, 2025, 03:51:15 pm
I must admit this issue is one close to my heart. I've suffered from depression and anxiety for years. Even with medication I still have good days and bad days. This year hasn't been good, but I keep going.
When I was really bad, I could barely get out of bed of a morning. It was totally debilitating. I'm glad I've left that behind (somewhat), but lots of days can be struggles.
I just hope Elijah and H can get back into their good places, as playing well will help them no end. And great things can still be done; Winston Churchill suffered from depressions and anxiety for much of his adult life. It didn't stop him from being one of Britain's best PM's.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 02, 2025, 04:22:32 pm
I must admit this issue is one close to my heart. I've suffered from depression and anxiety for years. Even with medication I still have good days and bad days. This year hasn't been good, but I keep going.
When I was really bad, I could barely get out of bed of a morning. It was totally debilitating. I'm glad I've left that behind (somewhat), but lots of days can be struggles.
I just hope Elijah and H can get back into their good places, as playing well will help them no end. And great things can still be done; Winston Churchill suffered from depressions and anxiety for much of his adult life. It didn't stop him from being one of Britain's best PM's.
I hear you Crash and wish you nothing but the best. What you described sounds exactly the same as a family member of mine, just keep chipping away step by step. We got your back if you need it.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Baggers on April 02, 2025, 05:02:46 pm
I must admit this issue is one close to my heart. I've suffered from depression and anxiety for years. Even with medication I still have good days and bad days. This year hasn't been good, but I keep going.
When I was really bad, I could barely get out of bed of a morning. It was totally debilitating. I'm glad I've left that behind (somewhat), but lots of days can be struggles.
I just hope Elijah and H can get back into their good places, as playing well will help them no end. And great things can still be done; Winston Churchill suffered from depressions and anxiety for much of his adult life. It didn't stop him from being one of Britain's best PM's.
Courageous stuff to share this with us, Capt Crash. I hear you brother. I know the 'good days and bad days' roller-coaster too well, also.
And as GTC said so well, got your back.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: crashlander on April 02, 2025, 08:56:06 pm
I must admit this issue is one close to my heart. I've suffered from depression and anxiety for years. Even with medication I still have good days and bad days. This year hasn't been good, but I keep going.
When I was really bad, I could barely get out of bed of a morning. It was totally debilitating. I'm glad I've left that behind (somewhat), but lots of days can be struggles.
I just hope Elijah and H can get back into their good places, as playing well will help them no end. And great things can still be done; Winston Churchill suffered from depressions and anxiety for much of his adult life. It didn't stop him from being one of Britain's best PM's.
I hear you Crash and wish you nothing but the best. What you described sounds exactly the same as a family member of mine, just keep chipping away step by step. We got your back if you need it.
Thanks mate.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Baggers on April 10, 2025, 08:34:11 am
There's credit where it's due and then there are plaudits.
I just read H's commentary over his recent, challenging, mental health journey. Bravo H. Beautifully articulated - plenty of folks will relate, be encouraged and perhaps even, if suffering in silence, reach out.
And to the club, family, friends, sheesh, the whole tribe around H... bravo, ripper stuff.
Although many may not think so, it takes a truck load of courage to front up and ask for help around mental health challenges, and here comes a tired old cliche... especially us blokes.
So glad, H, you're in the place you are now.
Now you and the fellas get out and kick some Weagle clacker Saturday arvo.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: DJC on April 10, 2025, 09:06:23 am
There's credit where it's due and then there are plaudits.
I just read H's commentary over his recent, challenging, mental health journey. Bravo H. Beautifully articulated - plenty of folks will relate, be encouraged and perhaps even, if suffering in silence, reach out.
And to the club, family, friends, sheesh, the whole tribe around H... bravo, ripper stuff.
Although many may not think so, it takes a truck load of courage to front up and ask for help around mental health challenges, and here comes a tired old cliche... especially us blokes.
So glad, H, you're in the place you are now.
Now you and the fellas get out and kick some Weagle clacker Saturday arvo.
Yes, I just watched his podcast; the facade/mask comment was interesting. I hope blokes struggling with mental health issues watch the podcast and seek help.
The speculation about the source of Harry’s issues was way off the mark 🤔
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: DJC on April 15, 2025, 09:00:31 pm
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Be the best-dressed cove on your worksite or your backyard, and start a conversation.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Thryleon on April 15, 2025, 10:09:45 pm
Extremely so, 3 Leos. And there is even more science to support what this cat points out. Not the entire story of addiction but a very, very large chunk of it. In fact, in advanced studies on addiction, addicts will often report that their 'best friend' is the bottle, porn, gambling, shopping, cults, their illicit drug of choice ...and so on.
These addictions are often referred to as 'self-medicating.' So, why medicate yourself with destructive habits?' At the core you often find nothing more complicated than loneliness.
I recall on leaving the Navy, supported by many conversations with military mates at the time and since, that one of the biggest issues to deal with was the loss of camaraderie; the loss of mateship and a sense of belonging - a community. And what happens to ex military folks, ex cops, ex AFL footballers...etc? When folks experience going through a great deal with a group of trusted friends a bond is created that is very difficult to replace. It's a depth of relationship that's hard to find when you're no longer a part of something much bigger than yourself.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: LP on April 16, 2025, 11:04:08 am
Isolation is a huge epidemic in the Internet age, people(Typically Millennials onwards) have never been more connected and never before so alone.
A lot of their 'connection' falls more into addiction/neediness category than 'healthy' connection. What is 'healthy' connection? Now there's a great topic.
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Lods on April 16, 2025, 01:33:46 pm
A lot of their 'connection' falls more into addiction/neediness category than 'healthy' connection. What is 'healthy' connection? Now there's a great topic.
Definitely not on here at times. :D Especially when we lose ::)
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: DJC on April 16, 2025, 03:20:52 pm
What is 'healthy' connection? Now there's a great topic.
When my lips touch that first chilly drop of a schooner of Pale Ale in the MCC, surrounded by several hundred new or old near and dear friends, that's about as first class of a healthy connection as it gets! :D
You'll never get that sitting in your bedroom playing Angry Birds!
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: Professer E on April 16, 2025, 05:09:31 pm
I love angry birds
Title: Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility
Post by: LP on April 16, 2025, 05:19:32 pm
I get people playing these games, and in small doses they are OK, but I know people(adults not kids) who play them 8 hrs a day, it rots the brain!
Read a book, talk to somebody, listen to some music, but stay away from the designed to be addictive software sh1zen, it's A/B tested to fine tune it's cognitive addictiveness, every button press, swipe or tap trains it to be more addictive, it learns what you like and feeds it back to you in a endless loop, and it's killing you!