Princes Park => Robert Heatley Stand => Topic started by: crashlander on April 05, 2025, 11:14:14 am
Title: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: crashlander on April 05, 2025, 11:14:14 am
We play West Coast in Adelaide (at Adelaide Oval) at 13:20 on Saturday, so there will be no free-to-air coverage. :( :( Those of us with other access, enjoy. At the moment, the Weagles have been better than last year, but nothing impressive. We will be the favourite, if we can run out the game.
Our line-up will be dependent and how the VFL team goes tonight.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: tonyo on April 05, 2025, 11:36:12 am
I'm driving over for the weekend, so they better put on a worthwhile performance!
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Baggers on April 05, 2025, 12:01:56 pm
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Thryleon on April 06, 2025, 08:32:12 am
Yep.
West coast and North, then Geelong at the G, then Adelaide at Adelaide. I'd be shocked if we end up with 3 wins out of our next 4, but its not impossible and that's what's required to get back on track.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 06, 2025, 08:36:38 am
West coast and North, then Geelong at the G, then Adelaide at Adelaide. I'd be shocked if we end up with 3 wins out of our next 4, but its not impossible and that's what's required to get back on track.
Crows are good, that will be a slaughter... WC should be a easy kill but Nth 50/50...
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Baggers on April 06, 2025, 08:38:15 am
I'd also strongly consider H for Young. As last night's Magoos game wore on H got better/more confident. I think Boyd would have to be an addition as well.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Lods on April 06, 2025, 08:39:31 am
Given the current climate and position...we simply cannot afford to lose this game.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: LordLucifer on April 06, 2025, 10:37:40 pm
B : Fogerty, Haynes, Wilson HB : Cerra, Weitering, Williams C : Saad, Cripps, Walsh HF : Silvagni, Moir, McGovern F : White, Curnow, Boyd R : De Koning, Lord, Hewett I/C : Kemp, Camporeale, Binns, Hollands
IN : Wilson, Boyd, Camporeale, Binns OUT : Acres, Young, Cowan (inj), Docherty, Motlop,
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: northernblue on April 06, 2025, 10:55:15 pm
B : Fogerty, Haynes, Wilson HB : Cerra, Weitering, Williams C : Saad, Cripps, Walsh HF : Silvagni, Moir, McGovern F : White, Curnow, Boyd R : De Koning, Lord, Hewett I/C : Kemp, Camporeale, Binns, Hollands
IN : Wilson, Boyd, Camporeale, Binns OUT : Acres, Young, Cowan (inj), Docherty, Motlop,
Which Camporeale ? You must have been impressed with Wilson’s game on Saturday, what impressed you the most ?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 06, 2025, 11:54:06 pm
We should win easily, Charlie should emulate Hogan and kick his usual bag of plenty vs the West Coast easies. It's a good time to try and get everyone a kick and if Harry and Elijah want an easing in game then this is it even if they only play 20 minutes.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: pertz on April 07, 2025, 08:11:05 am
We should win easily, Charlie should emulate Hogan and kick his usual bag of plenty vs the West Coast easies. It's a good time to try and get everyone a kick and if Harry and Elijah want an easing in game then this is it even if they only play 20 minutes.
I tend to agree EB. We need to get both of them back and firing however...we would be guilty of giving them games when they don't deserve them yet which is no good for the others busting their gut to get a seniors game.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: LordLucifer on April 07, 2025, 09:30:59 am
Which Camporeale ? You must have been impressed with Wilson’s game on Saturday, what impressed you the most ?
Not really, I just want see changes because we can't keep doing the same things.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: shawny on April 07, 2025, 10:11:14 am
Im not buying into the easy win talk at all after losing R1 when they were paying $10.
We should win no doubt but our system or no system and lack of confidence is the lowest ive seen it while under Voss. im not confident playing anyone to be honest.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: laj on April 07, 2025, 11:09:19 am
B : Fogerty, Haynes, Wilson HB : Cerra, Weitering, Williams C : Saad, Cripps, Walsh HF : Silvagni, Moir, McGovern F : White, Curnow, Boyd R : De Koning, Lord, Hewett I/C : Kemp, Camporeale, Binns, Hollands
IN : Wilson, Boyd, Camporeale, Binns OUT : Acres, Young, Cowan (inj), Docherty, Motlop,
Certainly more imaginative than our MC.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 07, 2025, 11:24:19 am
Id expect we will bring in Harry and E. Hollands. Voss and the MC will be desperate for a win even if it's vs a basket case club like West Coast. Don't see them experimenting too much given a loss might be the trigger for more mayhem off the field.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 07, 2025, 01:24:50 pm
Regardless of the players, the game plan is non existent and moving players to different roles hasn't achieved anything to improve the team. You can move a few deck chairs but if the course is the same so will be the result.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: kruddler on April 07, 2025, 01:56:42 pm
Which Camporeale ? You must have been impressed with Wilson’s game on Saturday, what impressed you the most ?
Not really, I just want see changes because we can't keep doing the same things.
You walked right into that one.
He set you up nicely because had you seen the VFL, Wilson amongst others, you wouldn't be calling for their inclusion.
People keep saying they don't want to do the same things, which is all well and good, but the alternative is doing something worse....like including some of the guys you listed.
A change for changes sake is not a step in the right direction right now.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: northernblue on April 07, 2025, 05:54:16 pm
Which Camporeale ? You must have been impressed with Wilson’s game on Saturday, what impressed you the most ?
Not really, I just want see changes because we can't keep doing the same things.
But sacking coaches and turning over 1/4 of the list every year is the sort of “same things” that have worked so well in the past that you want to repeat them…? 🤦🏼♂️
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: LordLucifer on April 07, 2025, 06:01:21 pm
Okay, let's keep selecting players who haven't earnt it.
There has to be a line in the sand moment for this club & the only way to ge there is by dropping a couple of senior players who have been coasting thus far.
If you chaps can't understand the logic of that then I feel sorry for you.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Professer E on April 07, 2025, 06:02:34 pm
Hail brother.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: northernblue on April 07, 2025, 06:11:16 pm
Okay, let's keep selecting players who haven't earnt it.
There has to be a line in the sand moment for this club & the only way to ge there is by dropping a couple of senior players who have been coasting thus far.
If you chaps can't understand the logic of that then I feel sorry for you.
So tell us which senior players and their replacements and why they’ll improve things…? I mean Moir had a ripper game on Friday after kicking the selection door down.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: PaulP on April 07, 2025, 06:17:30 pm
So tell us which senior players and their replacements and why they’ll improve things…? I mean Moir had a ripper game on Friday after kicking the selection door down.
You can almost read the names before they're even typed : McGovern, Haynes, Williams, Motlop, maybe Acres.
Sigh.......
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: northernblue on April 07, 2025, 06:20:52 pm
So tell us which senior players and their replacements and why they’ll improve things…? I mean Moir had a ripper game on Friday after kicking the selection door down.
You can almost read the names before they're even typed : McGovern, Haynes, Williams, Motlop, maybe Acres.
Sigh.......
It’s the replacements that have me sitting on the edge of my seat Paul 😉
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: PaulP on April 07, 2025, 06:22:13 pm
Okay, let's keep selecting players who haven't earnt it.
There has to be a line in the sand moment for this club & the only way to ge there is by dropping a couple of senior players who have been coasting thus far.
If you chaps can't understand the logic of that then I feel sorry for you.
So tell us which senior players and their replacements and why they’ll improve things…? I mean Moir had a ripper game on Friday after kicking the selection door down.
Maybe there is nothing to bring in, how about changing some roles (within reason). E.g. The turnover stats for Gov are horrible, 17 (worst in the comp) and 7 have directly resulted in goals to the opposition (that's 42 points of our 58 point total losing margin). Thats unsustainable. Im sure they are working with him to rectify this however if it continues, there must be a tipping point surely.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Professer E on April 07, 2025, 06:35:55 pm
Boyd and Carroll as inclusions, the other kids not yet. Williams and MacGovern are two that must be very much under the microscope.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: kruddler on April 07, 2025, 06:52:16 pm
Okay, let's keep selecting players who haven't earnt it.
There has to be a line in the sand moment for this club & the only way to ge there is by dropping a couple of senior players who have been coasting thus far.
If you chaps can't understand the logic of that then I feel sorry for you.
So tell us which senior players and their replacements and why they’ll improve things…? I mean Moir had a ripper game on Friday after kicking the selection door down.
He's all bark and no bite.
@LordLucifer "Let's keep selecting players that haven't earned it" or we could go your path of selecting players who have earned it even less!
Your first player listed as an 'in'
Billy Wilson in the VFL. 10 disposals - 4 tackles. 0 AFL games
Your first player listed as an 'out' Blake Acres in the AFL 30 disposals - 5 tackles 171 AFL games
Tell me again how this improves the side.
Don't worry, i'll save you the embarrassment and point out that it clearly doesn't.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: northernblue on April 07, 2025, 07:19:22 pm
So tell us which senior players and their replacements and why they’ll improve things…? I mean Moir had a ripper game on Friday after kicking the selection door down.
Maybe there is nothing to bring in, how about changing some roles (within reason). E.g. The turnover stats for Gov are horrible, 17 (worst in the comp) and 7 have directly resulted in goals to the opposition (that's 42 points of our 58 point total losing margin). Thats unsustainable. Im sure they are working with him to rectify this however if it continues, there must be a tipping point surely.
Sure, I agree there’s a tipping point. Gov is skillful, fast and creative, unfortunately he’s not playing his best at the moment. Who will play his position better and where can we utilise Gov ?
Should we play “forwards to the backline” after 1/2 time… 🤔
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Professer E on April 07, 2025, 07:26:48 pm
Skillful fast and creative? Haven't seen any of that for 18 months. His turnovers and abject failure to play his role have killed us this year, seriously a traffic cone would be better value because it wouldn't miss targets and #$@! up.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: northernblue on April 07, 2025, 07:31:13 pm
Skillful fast and creative? Haven't seen any of that for 18 months. His turnovers and abject failure to play his role have killed us this year, seriously a traffic cone would be better value because it wouldn't miss targets and #$@! up.
Cool story bro… 🙄 Gimme some solutions not garbage and I’ll listen.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: pinot on April 07, 2025, 07:31:39 pm
Okay, let's keep selecting players who haven't earnt it.
There has to be a line in the sand moment for this club & the only way to ge there is by dropping a couple of senior players who have been coasting thus far.
If you chaps can't understand the logic of that then I feel sorry for you.
You have Moir at CHF……
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: LordLucifer on April 07, 2025, 09:57:16 pm
Quite clearly, some of you just don't get it and probably never will.
I''m not going to waste my time spelling it out for you either.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: LordLucifer on April 07, 2025, 10:03:01 pm
Maybe there is nothing to bring in, how about changing some roles (within reason). E.g. The turnover stats for Gov are horrible, 17 (worst in the comp) and 7 have directly resulted in goals to the opposition (that's 42 points of our 58 point total losing margin). Thats unsustainable. Im sure they are working with him to rectify this however if it continues, there must be a tipping point surely.
Thank-you GIC, it's refreshing to read an alternative view to what is the norm around here right now.
We just cannot keep playing the same guys in the same positions & think it will automatically click and we will be premiership faves once again.
“if you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got” - HENRY FORD
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: kruddler on April 07, 2025, 10:51:34 pm
Tanking already? You know we don't have a 1st round pick yeah.
Why?
backline has four first round picks Midfield has four first round picks forward line has three first round picks
IC - youngsters that deserve a run over the under performers. I'll take Lemmey over Young every day of the week. The four experienced players need to start acting and playing like it.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: kruddler on April 08, 2025, 06:21:56 am
Tanking already? You know we don't have a 1st round pick yeah.
Why?
backline has four first round picks Midfield has four first round picks forward line has three first round picks
IC - youngsters that deserve a run over the under performers. I'll take Lemmey over Young every day of the week. The four experienced players need to start acting and playing like it.
Cottrell is injured for one. Carroll and Lemmey haven't played a game yet and form doesn't warrant it. Not sure where you are expecting lemmey to even play since you've got Charlie, Harry and Kemp already in the forwardline. The other ins are plausible on their own, but you simple don't make that many changes at once, especially when playing first gamers. So, you must be tanking.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: laj on April 08, 2025, 07:10:20 am
Cottrell is injured for one. Carroll and Lemmey haven't played a game yet and form doesn't warrant it. Not sure where you are expecting lemmey to even play since you've got Charlie, Harry and Kemp already in the forwardline.
Just a few thoughts on Lemmey...
Watching the VFL, he's probably still not ready, but if you were promoting a tall forward from that game and it wasn't judged on names or past performances I'd have Lemmey ahead of McKay.
In a team that was copping a bit of a hiding.... That's probably the best game I've seen him play. He was much more involved in the game than what I've seen before. He gave second efforts and moved around the ground and presented well. He kicked a couple of goals and could have had a couple more. Now it may even have been the presence of McKay, giving another forward option, that helped the performance, but he usually has McMahon there so it's hard to know.
Bottom line...he's a work in progress and if Harry was/is not available for the West Coast game it might be worth giving him a taste. If he doesn't get that chance I'm a lot more confident that there may be a player there. Just for his development it might also be worth getting him to spend some time in defence at VFL level.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: LordLucifer on April 08, 2025, 08:31:59 am
Quite clearly, some of you just don't get it and probably never will.
I''m not going to waste my time spelling it out for you either.
Oh please do. Educate us with your pull a name out of a hat strategy. "Tada" that's better. 😆
Okay then, let's just keep going with your theory of playing the same guys who are doing the same dumb things and delivering the same crap results seeing as it's working so brilliantly right now.
As I said, if you don't understand the reasons & benefits for making some hard changes to the team then I'm not going to explain it all to you.
Besides, it's not like you'd listen anyway, its either your way or no way on every subject we all discuss on this forum.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Thryleon on April 08, 2025, 10:44:24 am
@LL, these aren't robots running a process.
Today the person you are is different from the person you were yesterday.
With each bad choice you make you learn what to do/not to do next time.
Likewise with each skill error made the next attempt to execute isn't pre ordained. You could execute the same or better or worse.
Ditto pressure. Eventually you will learn to endure it and get better at applying it and coping with it.
Why does playing the same person twice guarantee the same outcome? Example, c curnow, p cripps. Both are way below their best this year. Do you simply change them due to it or persist?
You persist. The others aren't that level but they'll improve and change. No two weeks are the same, and no two outcomes are guaranteed. An interstate trip and some team bonding might make a bigger difference than anything else that has as the boys will connect with each other on a different level.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Milhanna13 on April 08, 2025, 10:50:16 am
So tell us which senior players and their replacements and why they’ll improve things…? I mean Moir had a ripper game on Friday after kicking the selection door down.
Maybe there is nothing to bring in, how about changing some roles (within reason). E.g. The turnover stats for Gov are horrible, 17 (worst in the comp) and 7 have directly resulted in goals to the opposition (that's 42 points of our 58 point total losing margin). Thats unsustainable. Im sure they are working with him to rectify this however if it continues, there must be a tipping point surely.
there is something going on there. he has always been a bit flaky, but last year he was actually pretty good, with minimal brainfades. this year, he is dropping uncontested marks and making really bad decisions.
maybe there is something going on at the club that we dont know about - the H and Lij problems, a number of prime movers down (some beacuse of injuries etc) - just too many issues at the moment....
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: PaulP on April 08, 2025, 10:54:45 am
Yes, I've been wondering the same Mil. Maybe some off field issues.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 08, 2025, 11:05:38 am
Maybe there is nothing to bring in, how about changing some roles (within reason). E.g. The turnover stats for Gov are horrible, 17 (worst in the comp) and 7 have directly resulted in goals to the opposition (that's 42 points of our 58 point total losing margin). Thats unsustainable. Im sure they are working with him to rectify this however if it continues, there must be a tipping point surely.
there is something going on there. he has always been a bit flaky, but last year he was actually pretty good, with minimal brainfades. this year, he is dropping uncontested marks and making really bad decisions.
maybe there is something going on at the club that we dont know about - the H and Lij problems, a number of prime movers down (some beacuse of injuries etc) - just too many issues at the moment....
The club need to set standards at selection this week and drop players who won't contest properly and bail out on contests. Voss has to set those standards or we won't ever improve.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Lods on April 08, 2025, 11:07:57 am
Yes, I've been wondering the same Mil. Maybe some off field issues.
It's all a bit of speculation, but into the void that is a form slump, there will always be that speculation.
It was interesting to hear both Silvagni and Weitering, two players who's commitment could never be questioned, talking about hard and honest conversations needing to take place.
Do we have a split between the "Professionals" and the "Casuals."?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: LordLucifer on April 08, 2025, 11:17:54 am
I understand where you are coming from Thry but it sounds like the gambler playing the roulette wheel, stick with it and eventually your winning number will come up.
At present, there is a malaise & complacency amongst the group, they know they are never going to get dropped which gives them an out. They are professional sportsmen (and earning a very good living out of it) but if you & I kept delivering the same lame efforts, we'd get sacked, they just get another game & fat paycheque.
As an example, Sam Walsh had 174 metres gained on the weekend, even TDK had more than that and he's a goddam ruckman. For me, they are allowing the players to dictate terms & coast along with no penalty.
Another example is Fogarty who plays as a small forward. Since joining Carlton, he has played 51 games but only kicked 19 goals, way under half a goal a game. Again, his output is woeful for a small forward (given his primary job is to kick goals), however, he is averaging 5 tackles a game which is in the elite category. Clearly he has strong desire to chase, be physical & attack the player with the ball, this makes him an ideal small defender IMO. We always get cleaned up by the good small forwards, we have never had anyone capable of keeping Elliott etc in check. Maybe we have one right under our nose but will never find out if we don't try it.
Looking at Boyd, I'm not a huge fan but many others are. He goes where 'angels fear to tread' sometimes putting his own safety in jeopardy plus he is a very good kick. We have tried a gazillion small forwards yet none of them have come close to being the next Eddie Betts (yes, they are lofty heights to achieve) but once again, maybe we have one in our midst but don't know unless we give it a trial.
By dropping some non-performers to the VFL & rewarding those in the VFL who are (normally that is) performing to a high level creates competition for positions plus ensures there is a little more desperation in the contest & chase.
Furthermore, trialling a couple of players in new roles could have major benefits for us, if they don't work then so be it, we haven't lost anything.
FFS, we have flipped Silvagni & Kemp around which has had some success so we should be more open to reinventing player roles.
We don't have to be cavalier and reckless about this, just work smarter, not harder.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: LordLucifer on April 08, 2025, 11:21:37 am
The club need to set standards at selection this week and drop players who won't contest properly and bail out on contests. Voss has to set those standards or we won't ever improve.
Hooray & amen !!
Perfectly stated Brother Elwood, its all about standards and always should be.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 08, 2025, 11:34:10 am
The club need to set standards at selection this week and drop players who won't contest properly and bail out on contests. Voss has to set those standards or we won't ever improve.
Hooray & amen !!
Perfectly stated Brother Elwood, its all about standards and always should be.
Ours have slipped LL, Mitchell would have gone ballistic if Hawks players bailed on contests or stopped chasing but Voss puts up with it because we have so many high paid Bambi's who think they can get away with slacking off. It's embarrassing and tells you where the list is at and even the commentators can see it during games. I want to see Voss call it out, be brave at selection and shoot a few Bambi's and get control of the list and raise the bar.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Thryleon on April 08, 2025, 12:20:48 pm
Yeah but we are talking about the Ferrari misfiring, and then saying that corrolla looks reliable (not really looking at how it performs on race day) and then attempting to put it up against another Falcon somewhere and expecting it to keep up.
It isnt ready to without a supercharger at minimum.
(car analogies sometimes come to the fore!!).
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: pertz on April 08, 2025, 12:42:59 pm
I understand where you are coming from Thry but it sounds like the gambler playing the roulette wheel, stick with it and eventually your winning number will come up.
At present, there is a malaise & complacency amongst the group, they know they are never going to get dropped which gives them an out. They are professional sportsmen (and earning a very good living out of it) but if you & I kept delivering the same lame efforts, we'd get sacked, they just get another game & fat paycheque.
As an example, Sam Walsh had 174 metres gained on the weekend, even TDK had more than that and he's a goddam ruckman. For me, they are allowing the players to dictate terms & coast along with no penalty.
Another example is Fogarty who plays as a small forward. Since joining Carlton, he has played 51 games but only kicked 19 goals, way under half a goal a game. Again, his output is woeful for a small forward (given his primary job is to kick goals), however, he is averaging 5 tackles a game which is in the elite category. Clearly he has strong desire to chase, be physical & attack the player with the ball, this makes him an ideal small defender IMO. We always get cleaned up by the good small forwards, we have never had anyone capable of keeping Elliott etc in check. Maybe we have one right under our nose but will never find out if we don't try it.
Looking at Boyd, I'm not a huge fan but many others are. He goes where 'angels fear to tread' sometimes putting his own safety in jeopardy plus he is a very good kick. We have tried a gazillion small forwards yet none of them have come close to being the next Eddie Betts (yes, they are lofty heights to achieve) but once again, maybe we have one in our midst but don't know unless we give it a trial.
By dropping some non-performers to the VFL & rewarding those in the VFL who are (normally that is) performing to a high level creates competition for positions plus ensures there is a little more desperation in the contest & chase.
Furthermore, trialling a couple of players in new roles could have major benefits for us, if they don't work then so be it, we haven't lost anything.
FFS, we have flipped Silvagni & Kemp around which has had some success so we should be more open to reinventing player roles.
We don't have to be cavalier and reckless about this, just work smarter, not harder.
Agree LL. Sounds like you watched "First Crack" on Sunday as this is what David King said. His key point was that we need to honour performance at selection this week and be open to moving players to new positions to try and get them back in form and help the team. Turnover king Guv forward for example. And before I get howled down I am not talking about gifting games to players that don't deserve it
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: pinot on April 08, 2025, 01:02:34 pm
Perfectly stated Brother Elwood, its all about standards and always should be.
Ours have slipped LL, Mitchell would have gone ballistic if Hawks players bailed on contests or stopped chasing but Voss puts up with it because we have so many high paid Bambi's who think they can get away with slacking off. It's embarrassing and tells you where the list is at and even the commentators can see it during games. I want to see Voss call it out, be brave at selection and shoot a few Bambi's and get control of the list and raise the bar.
Yep and next two weeks will be perfect opportunity to do it.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: blueray on April 08, 2025, 01:08:28 pm
I don't get it. Harry played last week so I would have thought he is a straight in. I've dealt with mental heath so I am not being insensitive here. Good enough for reserves, good enough for seniors so either you play or we trade you. Sick of this soft underbelly ATM at the club.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: crashlander on April 08, 2025, 01:10:49 pm
Another example is Fogarty who plays as a small forward. Since joining Carlton, he has played 51 games but only kicked 19 goals, way under half a goal a game. Again, his output is woeful for a small forward (given his primary job is to kick goals), however, he is averaging 5 tackles a game which is in the elite category. Clearly he has strong desire to chase, be physical & attack the player with the ball, this makes him an ideal small defender IMO. We always get cleaned up by the good small forwards, we have never had anyone capable of keeping Elliott etc in check. Maybe we have one right under our nose but will never find out if we don't try it.
Perhaps we can play Fog as our version of Bedford. He may not be that great in the air, but his pace and concentration would allow him to follow a lot good mids around.
Certainly, we need to do something different. Expecting a different outcome when you do the same is not logical.
I'd like it if we could play Durdin as a negative player, but he doesn't have the tank.
I'd also consider moving McGovern, as he is not playing well at the moment. Last year, but for the Hawthorn game, he was doing a good job as a defender. He was running off his man, taking good marks and providing attack from defence and depth in his kicking. This year, he seems scared to leave his man, he isn't holding his marks and his mistakes have been lethal. Do we drop him? Not the worst idea going around. Do we play him somewhere else? Again, not the worst idea going around. He is a talented player, but he is going nowhere at the moment.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 08, 2025, 01:12:52 pm
Yes, I've been wondering the same Mil. Maybe some off field issues.
It's all a bit of speculation, but into the void that is a form slump, there will always be that speculation.
It was interesting to hear both Silvagni and Weitering, two players who's commitment could never be questioned, talking about hard and honest conversations needing to take place.
Do we have a split between the "Professionals" and the "Casuals."?
Well if there is, the casuals need to shape up or ship out. What Weiters and SOS are demanding is not negotiable.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 08, 2025, 01:14:48 pm
Perhaps we can play Fog as our version of Bedford. He may not be that great in the air, but his pace and concentration would allow him to follow a lot good mids around.
Fog, pace? Bedford is a speedster, Fog is a not slow but not overly quick.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: crashlander on April 08, 2025, 01:19:36 pm
Perhaps we can play Fog as our version of Bedford. He may not be that great in the air, but his pace and concentration would allow him to follow a lot good mids around.
Fog, pace? Bedford is a speedster, Fog is a not slow but not overly quick.
True, but we lack the real leg speed I'd prefer to have for a guy in this role. Others coming through may have it, but, as been pointed out any number of times, we are not blessed with a large number of seriously quick players.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 08, 2025, 01:28:16 pm
Fog, pace? Bedford is a speedster, Fog is a not slow but not overly quick.
True, but we lack the real leg speed I'd prefer to have for a guy in this role. Others coming through may have it, but, as been pointed out any number of times, we are not blessed with a large number of seriously quick players.
Fog is great at tackling and applying maximum pressure to keep the ball in our fwd line. Unfortunately, at the moment he is getting lumped in with the poor performing small fwd group (ie as they are not hitting the scoreboard). Fog is suffering the departure of Owies I reckon.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: PaulP on April 08, 2025, 01:32:36 pm
I might be the only one who thinks this, but I think too much is made of what are rare and minor (and split second) decisions by players who pull up or stop short or whatever. There's a mythology built up that ironing yourself out is more helpful to the team than trying to play out the full game. Our depth is shallow, and our injury list, whilst better than most years, is not ideal. It's possible that these players had moments they regret, and it's also possible that Voss is aware of our injuries and our depth, and has perhaps suggested that discretion is the better part of valor. Unlikely to be a popular view, but just putting it out there regardless.
This is precisely why I have grievances with certain football commentary : isolate, decontextualize, amplify and magnify incidents that have no real bearing on the final outcome, and aggrieved supporters pick it up and run with it.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Shakin77 on April 08, 2025, 02:24:42 pm
Quite clearly, some of you just don't get it and probably never will.
I''m not going to waste my time spelling it out for you either.
Mml. You can't can you.
I can just see it now. LL steps into the room. "Lads! The days of selecting players who haven't earnt it are over. No longer will be gifting games. Enough is Enough"
"Right onto selection this week. Banging down the door with his 3 kicks and 4 handballs is Ashton Moir. Couldn't manage a tackle but that's a good start. Welcome Son."
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Thryleon on April 08, 2025, 02:45:55 pm
So moving onto this week. Our team is crying out for some easy ball. thus far, we have played a fairly young Richmond who turned the game into their chaos scrappy style they have been rolling with for nigh on 10 years now and worked themselves up for this event of the year, and knew no matter what happened, they would contest the crap out of it if they won nothing else for the year.
A slick hawthorn outfit, who move the ball end to end quickly.
A gritty bulldogs outfit, who don't really give anyone a free ride, and are pretty tenacious.
Then the Pies, which is never an easy contest, and are happy to go the knuckle.
We are about to face, possibly our easiest opponent of the year with a bunch of players who have been screaming to me, like they are playing rush pressure football, and could use a more easy kill. Now is not the time to "set standards" and go about doing some rubbish because we are annoyed we aint winning.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 08, 2025, 02:56:22 pm
So moving onto this week. Our team is crying out for some easy ball. thus far, we have played a fairly young Richmond who turned the game into their chaos scrappy style they have been rolling with for nigh on 10 years now and worked themselves up for this event of the year, and knew no matter what happened, they would contest the crap out of it if they won nothing else for the year.
A slick hawthorn outfit, who move the ball end to end quickly.
A gritty bulldogs outfit, who don't really give anyone a free ride, and are pretty tenacious.
Then the Pies, which is never an easy contest, and are happy to go the knuckle.
We are about to face, possibly our easiest opponent of the year with a bunch of players who have been screaming to me, like they are playing rush pressure football, and could use a more easy kill. Now is not the time to "set standards" and go about doing some rubbish because we are annoyed we aint winning.
Disagree, we need to set standards and stop looking for excuses. Don't care if we win or lose this week just don't embarrass the club with another weak half a game of football and then say it's too hard and I don't want to try anymore because the opposition won't let us win and are playing too rough. This should be a comfortable win but without meeting certain standards then it won't mean anything. Chase, tackle and contest properly, just get the simple things right and play like a committed team not individuals looking for an easy kick and another pay check.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Lods on April 08, 2025, 03:18:43 pm
There probably needs to be a bit of dampening of expectations regarding the recovery from the issues regarding Harry and Elijah and their availability this week. It's not always a linear progression. The fact a player plays VFL should not automaticaly mean he's ready to go in the seniors the following week. The fact they took the field is a positive. How they pulled up is the unknown. While West Coast would seem to be the ideal opponent to reintroduce these players, a lot will depend on the feedback from both and discussions with those looking after their well-being following the Southport game.
And it would seem that the standards expected by team-mates and supporters will be such that there will be extra pressure to commit 110% to the contest.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: pew2 on April 08, 2025, 03:25:02 pm
i agree with lods regarding Harry and Elijah because we played 1 week in reserves we go straight in (seniors ) no way time to get tough 3 wks in ressies and maybe.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: PaulP on April 08, 2025, 03:26:23 pm
Players like Docherty and Williams have played 173 and 159 games respectively. I'm sure they know exactly what is required of them. Whilst it could be argued that we all need a nudge from time to time, Voss spends part of every game coaching from the bench - I'm sure that a quiet word on the interchange is all that is needed, and failing that, sending out the runner to make some inquiries would sort things out. Tearing strips, dropping players, making an example, setting standards etc seem old school, overly performative, and unlikely to have the desired effect IMO.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: kruddler on April 08, 2025, 03:43:13 pm
Oh please do. Educate us with your pull a name out of a hat strategy. "Tada" that's better. 😆
Okay then, let's just keep going with your theory of playing the same guys who are doing the same dumb things and delivering the same crap results seeing as it's working so brilliantly right now.
As I said, if you don't understand the reasons & benefits for making some hard changes to the team then I'm not going to explain it all to you.
Besides, it's not like you'd listen anyway, its either your way or no way on every subject we all discuss on this forum.
Its not 'my way' i have no say it what happens on the MC. They do....and i'm explaining to you why it is happening the way it is.
As Shakin, not so subtlely, put it....what you want simply cannot happen because what you bring in is performing worse, with less pressure, less skill, less experience etc....YOU are the one gambling. You are playing roulette. Instead of betting on red or black.....you are going on green.
I get you want wins, i'm pointing out your way won't provide them. Its akin to swap the 1sts and the 2nds because the 1sts are underperforming........yet the 2nds are not even close to getting a win against worst opposition. How will that fix the problem?
Before last week, and probably still, there was a 'ladder' going around of "Time in front" in 2025. It ranks teams based on the amount of time they have been in front of games (at any time) and gives you an overall percentage. After 3 games, we were 4th, with 58% time in front. The 3 teams above us, were all top 4 on the actual ladder.
What does that mean? It means we are doing a lot right. It means we are not far away from some wins. There are plenty of teams who were 25% or worse time in front....they have a lot more to worry about.
It means wholesale changes are not required. Just some minor tweaks and a bit of luck. The tigers game is the anomoly, the embarrassment. Since then, we've played 3 top 8 sides and been in front for more than half a game each time. The dogs game we had about 5 scoring calls go against us. Taking goals off us, giving goals to them. Thats the umpires making 50-50 calls that this time, cost us the game. Next time it may win us the game.
What you seem to overlook, and Thry touched on it, is that players do not give the same results every week like robots. Some are up, some are down. Next week, its might be completely opposite.
This week, we play some worse opposition. Putting in the same effort we have all year, should see us get a win with no changes at all. However, if we sack 6 players and play kids, the chance of getting a win decreases dramatically.
Do you want wins or not?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: LP on April 08, 2025, 03:52:10 pm
Tearing strips, dropping players, making an example, setting standards etc seem old school, overly performative, and unlikely to have the desired effect IMO.
Agreed, in the old days when we got "The Cuts" and other various corporal punishments at school some bastardry from a coach enlisted some push back, modern kids are too well informed and trained from a very young age to identify such brutality as bullying and a violation of personal rights.
If the MC, any modern MC not just ours, tried the old brutal ways they would get "Cancelled!"
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: PaulP on April 08, 2025, 03:54:10 pm
Agreed, in the old days when we got "The Cuts" and other various corporal punishments at school some bastardry from a coach enlisted some push back, modern kids are too well informed and trained from a very young age to identify such brutality as bullying and a violation of personal rights.
If the MC, any modern MC not just ours, tried the old brutal ways they would get "Cancelled!"
The bit in bold is a good thing IMO.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: kruddler on April 08, 2025, 03:55:48 pm
Players like Docherty and Williams have played 173 and 159 games respectively. I'm sure they know exactly what is required of them. Whilst it could be argued that we all need a nudge from time to time, Voss spends part of every game coaching from the bench - I'm sure that a quiet word on the interchange is all that is needed, and failing that, sending out the runner to make some inquiries would sort things out. Tearing strips, dropping players, making an example, setting standards etc seem old school, overly performative, and unlikely to have the desired effect IMO.
I started looking at our experience vs Collingwood last week but didn't follow through with it. One thing i do remember though is the 5 most experienced collingwood players combined for more than 450 games (almost 480 IIRC) MORE experience than our top 5 most experienced players. I was going to continue down the list and the 'next 5' etc but didn't bother. I think there was only 1 player who hadn't played 50 games or more for the pies, and he started sub. We had 7 who have played under 50 games. They only had 6 players who had played under 100 games. 4 played in a flag 1 was Nick Daicos who was injured otherwise would've played in a flag. 1 started sub.
There youngest player is Nick Daicos. We played 6 players younger than him.
Ultimately, they had 1138 more games experience than us.
So yes, the players you mentioned should certainly know what is required of them. I'm not sure the same could be said for a lot of others. Pies on the other hand certainly do and have a big edge over everyone. People forget they won a flag 18 months ago.
Some people need to give the opposition some credit when evaluating our teams performance.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 08, 2025, 05:03:59 pm
I might be the only one who thinks this, but I think too much is made of what are rare and minor (and split second) decisions by players who pull up or stop short or whatever. There's a mythology built up that ironing yourself out is more helpful to the team than trying to play out the full game. Our depth is shallow, and our injury list, whilst better than most years, is not ideal. It's possible that these players had moments they regret, and it's also possible that Voss is aware of our injuries and our depth, and has perhaps suggested that discretion is the better part of valor. Unlikely to be a popular view, but just putting it out there regardless.
This is precisely why I have grievances with certain football commentary : isolate, decontextualize, amplify and magnify incidents that have no real bearing on the final outcome, and aggrieved supporters pick it up and run with it.
Spot on Pauly.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: pinot on April 08, 2025, 05:13:14 pm
We've lost every game - standards have been poor by senior players.
Voss has lost control of the list if these standards are not a priority.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 08, 2025, 05:26:22 pm
Im sorry our players are overly sensitive and can't be scolded or schooled in a traditional manner where they may become withdrawn and not want to train hard or put their bodies on the line...my mistake. I thought we were supporting a football club not an encounter group? We may need to ring Andrew Dillon and get him to tell West Coast to go easy on the tackling and for Harvey to cut out the don't argues in case someone gets hurt. We are pathetic for a reason and having zero standards and free games for non performing players is part of why our culture sucks and I don't care if Voss is coaching from a dunny or a helicopter he needs to start driving higher standards for this club and asking for honest effort as a bare minimum.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 08, 2025, 05:34:32 pm
Im sorry our players are overly sensitive and can't be scolded or schooled in a traditional manner where they may become withdrawn and not want to train hard or put their bodies on the line...my mistake. I thought we were supporting a football club not an encounter group? We may need to ring Andrew Dillon and get him to tell West Coast to go easy on the tackling and for Harvey to cut out the don't argues in case someone gets hurt. We are pathetic for a reason and having zero standards and free games for non performing players is part of why our culture sucks and I don't care if Voss is coaching from a dunny or a helicopter he needs to start driving higher standards for this club and asking for honest effort as a bare minimum.
Voss has called out the lack of adherence to standards at numerous pressers, Im sure behind closed doors the appropriate level of "scolding" is being delivered. It's on the players to respond or they will be shown the door when contracts are up. Remember, he was coached by the best in the business and I am certain he knows a thing or two about holding players to account. He doesnt need to froth at the mouth or rant and rave publicly. Again, this in on the players to respond to.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: pinot on April 08, 2025, 05:35:13 pm
100% effort in chasing 100% effort in tackling 100% effort in running 100% effort in kicking straight 100% effort putting your head in the hole 100% effort in putting body on the line.
If unable to meet these simple standards which is doesn't take highly skilled players to do - then they are not a part of the future and give some kids with upside that will do it.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 08, 2025, 05:36:30 pm
100% effort in chasing 100% effort in tackling 100% effort in running 100% effort in kicking straight 100% effort putting your head in the hole 100% effort in putting body on the line.
If unable to meet these simple standards which is doesn't take highly skilled players to do - then they are not a part of the future and give some kids with upside that will do it.
And when the kids come in and do the exact same thing? What then? Do we ring ex players to throw the boots on?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: PaulP on April 08, 2025, 05:37:12 pm
We've lost every game - standards have been poor by senior players.
Voss has lost control of the list if these standards are not a priority.
In an absolute sense, I guess it's possible, but unlikely IMO. Voss is supposedly a great leader of men, and our boys seem like a fairly coachable bunch. My feeling is that people are providing answers to problems that don't necessarily exist.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: pinot on April 08, 2025, 05:39:22 pm
100% effort in chasing 100% effort in tackling 100% effort in running 100% effort in kicking straight 100% effort putting your head in the hole 100% effort in putting body on the line.
If unable to meet these simple standards which is doesn't take highly skilled players to do - then they are not a part of the future and give some kids with upside that will do it.
And when the kids come in and do the exact same thing? What then? Do we ring ex players to throw the boots on?
Well you can't continue with senior players setting poor standards.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 08, 2025, 05:41:57 pm
Im sorry our players are overly sensitive and can't be scolded or schooled in a traditional manner where they may become withdrawn and not want to train hard or put their bodies on the line...my mistake. I thought we were supporting a football club not an encounter group? We may need to ring Andrew Dillon and get him to tell West Coast to go easy on the tackling and for Harvey to cut out the don't argues in case someone gets hurt. We are pathetic for a reason and having zero standards and free games for non performing players is part of why our culture sucks and I don't care if Voss is coaching from a dunny or a helicopter he needs to start driving higher standards for this club and asking for honest effort as a bare minimum.
Voss has called out the lack of adherence to standards at numerous pressers, Im sure behind closed doors the appropriate level of "scolding" is being delivered. It's on the players to respond or they will be shown the door when contracts are up. Remember, he was coached by the best in the business and I am certain he knows a thing or two about holding players to account. He doesnt need to froth at the mouth or rant and rave publicly. Again, this in on the players to respond to.
Voss may have called it out but has done nothing, the same players each week under question continue to get games and are serial offenders. He may have been coached by Matthews but his record isn't great and after showing faith in the players they haven't responded imo and if he wants to save his job he needs to get tougher like how he played.We lost to Richmond rnd1...that's about as embarrassing as it gets and still no response from the players...its sad and pathetic.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 08, 2025, 05:43:14 pm
And when the kids come in and do the exact same thing? What then? Do we ring ex players to throw the boots on?
Well you can't continue with senior players setting poor standards.
I agree but change for the sake of change, playing players who aren't ready or provide a better option is not the answer. They will make changes where appropriate with appropriate replacements when possible. Until such time, they need to tread water and ask the senior players for a response.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 08, 2025, 05:44:28 pm
Voss has called out the lack of adherence to standards at numerous pressers, Im sure behind closed doors the appropriate level of "scolding" is being delivered. It's on the players to respond or they will be shown the door when contracts are up. Remember, he was coached by the best in the business and I am certain he knows a thing or two about holding players to account. He doesnt need to froth at the mouth or rant and rave publicly. Again, this in on the players to respond to.
Voss may have called it out but has done nothing, the same players each week under question continue to get games and are serial offenders. He may have been coached by Matthews but his record isn't great and after showing faith in the players they haven't responded imo and if he wants to save his job he needs to get tougher like how he played.We lost to Richmond rnd1...that's about as embarrassing as it gets and still no response from the players...its sad and pathetic.
Voss cant run out and lay a tackle for them EB. If there are no better options what can they do other than keep demanding better? I agree with you on the pathetic efforts from the players by the way. Im not for a second suggesting its acceptable, what's the answer though?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 08, 2025, 05:53:43 pm
Voss may have called it out but has done nothing, the same players each week under question continue to get games and are serial offenders. He may have been coached by Matthews but his record isn't great and after showing faith in the players they haven't responded imo and if he wants to save his job he needs to get tougher like how he played.We lost to Richmond rnd1...that's about as embarrassing as it gets and still no response from the players...its sad and pathetic.
Voss cant run out and lay a tackle for them EB. If there are no better options what can they do other than keep demanding better? I agree with you on the pathetic efforts from the players by the way. Im not for a second suggesting its acceptable, what's the answer though?
I'd play kids and drop those serial offenders and send a message to the list , no more free games. Don't care about winning at this stage, just gimme effort and no cheating on your teammates who do try. If those senior players change their ways then introduce them back in tithe lineup but if the sook it up then nada for them and the trade table. Got nothing to lose and a simple request for effort for 4 quarters is all I would ask.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Professer E on April 08, 2025, 06:31:25 pm
Agree 100%. If your culture is no good - and ours has been for well, at least twenty years - you're stuffed. So time to fix it instead of kicking the çan down the road. Now, not in five years And if that means dropping some names for a kid who gets two kicks, and peeing those dropped players off, fine. They can always offer themselves up for trade, ta ta.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Lods on April 08, 2025, 07:03:45 pm
The question of course is.... What if we drop the players who have been sub-par, replace them with kids and then...lose the game?
Would we say...Well at least we made a statement?
We can't afford to lose this game. We can make one or two changes for chronic non-performers. But apart from that, we have to play the best available side we can muster.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Professer E on April 08, 2025, 07:16:46 pm
If a bloke isn't going at 100% is he actually part of our best team? What's has a more negative effect, chronic poor performance or poor attitude? I reckon they might be tied together.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: kruddler on April 08, 2025, 07:44:07 pm
If a bloke isn't going at 100% is he actually part of our best team? What's has a more negative effect, chronic poor performance or poor attitude? I reckon they might be tied together.
Why is this concept so difficult for some to grasp.
I'm not sure currently, we could field a team of people going at 100%. So are we better off with a senior player going at 80% of a kid who hasn't played a game goint at 80%.....or even 90%.
Do we want to win? Do we want to chastise senior players and reward kids who don't deserve it?
What people want and what we can actually achieve share no overlap in the venn diagram.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Thryleon on April 08, 2025, 08:28:25 pm
If a bloke isn't going at 100% is he actually part of our best team? What's has a more negative effect, chronic poor performance or poor attitude? I reckon they might be tied together.
cripps, Walsh, Charlie and Harry aren't going at 100%. Are they part of our best team?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: pinot on April 08, 2025, 08:45:07 pm
The question of course is.... What if we drop the players who have been sub-par, replace them with kids and then...lose the game?
Would we say...Well at least we made a statement?
We can't afford to lose this game. We can make one or two changes for chronic non-performers. But apart from that, we have to play the best available side we can muster.
So how do you set standards? Because alot of senior players are falling short.
We are not going anywhere may beat some bottom eight sides - prefer we set standards of minimal acceptable requirement than winning a game. Thats where we are because basic standards are not being met.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: northernblue on April 08, 2025, 09:15:08 pm
Maybe there is nothing to bring in, how about changing some roles (within reason). E.g. The turnover stats for Gov are horrible, 17 (worst in the comp) and 7 have directly resulted in goals to the opposition (that's 42 points of our 58 point total losing margin). Thats unsustainable. Im sure they are working with him to rectify this however if it continues, there must be a tipping point surely.
there is something going on there. he has always been a bit flaky, but last year he was actually pretty good, with minimal brainfades. this year, he is dropping uncontested marks and making really bad decisions.
maybe there is something going on at the club that we dont know about - the H and Lij problems, a number of prime movers down (some beacuse of injuries etc) - just too many issues at the moment....
It may be as simple as the number of blokes who’s partners have had babies… loss of sleep and relationship pressures can be exactly the source of the issues we see on the field.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Lods on April 08, 2025, 11:06:03 pm
The question of course is.... What if we drop the players who have been sub-par, replace them with kids and then...lose the game?
Would we say...Well at least we made a statement?
We can't afford to lose this game. We can make one or two changes for chronic non-performers. But apart from that, we have to play the best available side we can muster.
So how do you set standards? Because alot of senior players are falling short.
We are not going anywhere may beat some bottom eight sides - prefer we set standards of minimal acceptable requirement than winning a game. Thats where we are because basic standards are not being met.
Some supporters are demanding wholesale changes in the side. You can't do that. You can make one or two changes with those falling short....but not a number of them all at once. People who are suggesting around 5 or 6 for the chop would be amongst the most critical if we lose the game. The reality is that anyone who watched the VFL game last weekend would realise that the replacements, in a number of cases, are showing the same skill errors and lack of intensity as the players they're suggested to replace in the senior side...at a lower level. So what happens when they fail to fire?
If we had half a dozen in the VFL giving it an absolute crack and performing, then maybe you consider it. But we don't. Durdin, Boyd, Carroll that's about it. And while each of them may bring something to the side they're hardly game changers. One will come in to replace Cowan...probably Boyd. That leaves us with perhaps two spots.
Our best option for improved standards won't come from dropping players. It will be those hard conversations from players like Silvagni and Weitering.
Our biggest issue in the last dozen games has been a lack of structure and stabilty in terms of the players we put out there each week. Significant chopping and changing of the side is the one thing we shouldn't do. If you're going to make these changes they have to be seen with one eye on the "best available at the time." Make one change, maybe two to send a message...but if the player that's brought in fails to impact thats equally costly to the side.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: crashlander on April 09, 2025, 01:39:20 pm
Matt Carroll to play this Saturday.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 09, 2025, 02:01:27 pm
So how do you set standards? Because alot of senior players are falling short.
We are not going anywhere may beat some bottom eight sides - prefer we set standards of minimal acceptable requirement than winning a game. Thats where we are because basic standards are not being met.
Some supporters are demanding wholesale changes in the side. You can't do that. You can make one or two changes with those falling short....but not a number of them all at once. People who are suggesting around 5 or 6 for the chop would be amongst the most critical if we lose the game. The reality is that anyone who watched the VFL game last weekend would realise that the replacements, in a number of cases, are showing the same skill errors and lack of intensity as the players they're suggested to replace in the senior side...at a lower level. So what happens when they fail to fire?
If we had half a dozen in the VFL giving it an absolute crack and performing, then maybe you consider it. But we don't. Durdin, Boyd, Carroll that's about it. And while each of them may bring something to the side they're hardly game changers. One will come in to replace Cowan...probably Boyd. That leaves us with perhaps two spots.
Our best option for improved standards won't come from dropping players. It will be those hard conversations from players like Silvagni and Weitering.
Our biggest issue in the last dozen games has been a lack of structure and stabilty in terms of the players we put out there each week. Significant chopping and changing of the side is the one thing we shouldn't do. If you're going to make these changes they have to be seen with one eye on the "best available at the time." Make one change, maybe two to send a message...but if the player that's brought in fails to impact thats equally costly to the side.
I dont see Williams, Young, Cowan(inj) and Docherty as outs being an excessive number of changes, hard conversations would have been had after the round 1 debacle I would have thought and then the following weeks after....done no good so Id be forgetting the talking and taking action at the selection table. Harry, E, Hollands, Boyd and Carroll as ins.....
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 09, 2025, 02:15:24 pm
I dont see Williams, Young, Cowan(inj) and Docherty as outs being an excessive number of changes, hard conversations would have been had after the round 1 debacle I would have thought and then the following weeks after....done no good so Id be forgetting the talking and taking action at the selection table. Harry, E, Hollands, Boyd and Carroll as ins.....
Agree but I dont think Hollands and McKay will play this week, I doubt they are ready. I think it will be Cowan (ink) and Docherty (omitted) for Boyd and Carroll.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Milhanna13 on April 09, 2025, 02:15:45 pm
i agree with lods regarding Harry and Elijah because we played 1 week in reserves we go straight in (seniors ) no way time to get tough 3 wks in ressies and maybe.
they did both play the ressies scracth match the week before - so, really 2 mathches
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: pew2 on April 09, 2025, 03:35:30 pm
E Hollands another slow player leave him in the reserves for weeks make him earn his spot ,his not that good.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 09, 2025, 03:42:54 pm
That would mean at least two changes. Carroll for Cowan already circulating in socials.
Carroll is a confirmed in. Harry not yet. I would expect at least another change or 2 on top of carroll.
Tomorrow at 6:25 will be very interesting! We know the MC likes Durds, so there's another very possible inclusion (at Fog's expense?) and then there's Boyd who also deserves a call up.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Professer E on April 09, 2025, 05:06:28 pm
Williams will be nervous
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: kruddler on April 09, 2025, 05:12:14 pm
Going into this game we have the smallest injury list that i can remember..... https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/1752149/injury-news-two-blues-tests-for-gather-round
Jagga and Newy out for the year which we know. Cottrell and Pittonet both a test. Cincotta, Fantasia and Cowan out for another month or so.
Thats it. :o
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: LP on April 09, 2025, 05:17:31 pm
Going into this game we have the smallest injury list that i can remember..... https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/1752149/injury-news-two-blues-tests-for-gather-round
Six significant names though.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Lods on April 09, 2025, 05:18:22 pm
If Harry doesn't play I wonder if they'd consider Pittonet, just to free up DeKoning a bit. He's been getting a bit of assistance but has been finishing games pretty stuffed.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Lods on April 09, 2025, 05:22:43 pm
Tom Morris is reporting Harry will travel with the team and is expected to play
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: kruddler on April 09, 2025, 05:28:52 pm
Going into this game we have the smallest injury list that i can remember..... https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/1752149/injury-news-two-blues-tests-for-gather-round
Six significant names though.
You reckon?
Newman is the only walk up start. Jagga we all have high hopes for but actually hasn't played a game yet. The rest are not best 22 Cowan is solid without being significant Cottrell is up and down like a yo yo Cincotta was borderline best 22 last year when fit Pittonet is solid, but not best 22 in a team that only needs 1 ruck. Fantasia....was he your 7th?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: LP on April 09, 2025, 05:35:09 pm
Jagga is a future star, the 5 others are regulars in and out but easing the load, they aren't list cloggers. In previous seasons we had long list of injuries most of them couldn't get a game when fit.
I suspect a few will have a different opinion of Cincotta than labelling him borderline, a lot might have him ahead of Cowan, I'd probably have Cincotta ahead of Motlop, Fogarty, Evans, Lord, White, Moir, Young and Haynes.
What is hard to understand is why we have so many simultaneously sadly out of form.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 09, 2025, 05:39:17 pm
Jagga is a future star, the 5 others are regulars in and out but easing the load, they aren't list cloggers. In previous seasons we had long list of injuries most of them couldn't get a game when fit.
I suspect a few will have a different opinion of Cincotta than labelling him borderline, a lot might have him ahead of Cowan, I'd probably have Cincotta ahead of Motlop, Fogarty, Evans, Lord, White, Moir, Young and Haynes.
What is hard to understand is why we have so many simultaneously sadly out of form.
I'm labelling him borderline because the MC rate him borderline. As mentioned, he was fit for parts of last year but was playing 2's. People can and will have different opinions on players. I'm not arguing individuals, just stating that they are not 'significant'. Senior bodies who may or may not be best 22, but not significant. Charlie, Cripps, TDK, Weitering, Walsh....are significant.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: pinot on April 09, 2025, 05:45:28 pm
Good news on H and even better on Carroll
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Thryleon on April 09, 2025, 05:47:38 pm
Moir out durdin in makes sense.
I'd consider dropping Lewis Young too. Whilst he has actually performed ok, there are times where he has panic merchant disposal the ball away because he hates contact.
Boyd should come back sooner or later too.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: LP on April 09, 2025, 05:57:07 pm
I'm labelling him borderline because the MC rate him borderline. As mentioned, he was fit for parts of last year but was playing 2's.
I think you're confusing Cincotta with Cowan.
Cincotta was injured early last season, if I recall he was recovering from a shoulder injury he carried at the end of 2023 right through the finals ( 15 straight games), then resuming in the 2s in 2024 played 16 straight senior games before being injured again in the last round and missing the finals with his current hip complaint.
Cowan was in and out of the 2024 side across the season, dropped twice.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Thryleon on April 09, 2025, 06:16:33 pm
Both of them are in my best 30 odd. Particularly with Newman out.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Thryleon on April 09, 2025, 06:16:47 pm
Rumours building Harry is back
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: rocky on April 09, 2025, 06:34:35 pm
There's no rumours. It's official?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: rocky on April 09, 2025, 06:35:01 pm
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: PaulP on April 09, 2025, 08:22:52 pm
Would be great if Harry kicked a goal in the first few minutes of the game. The feeling for him and his team mates would be huge.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: DJC on April 09, 2025, 09:07:00 pm
It’s good to hear that Harry has overcome whatever it was that was causing him issues. I’m sure that he wouldn’t be playing if he wasn’t good to go … and he has a decent pre-season under his belt.
Having Harry back should make life a little easier for Charlie - who is playing as if he hasn’t had a pre-season 🙄
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Lods on April 09, 2025, 09:53:43 pm
Well maybe we are going to see more changes than some of us expected, and others called for... Carroll and Harry look like they're in. I'd expect Durdin and Boyd to also be promoted.
So that looks like 4 for a start. What's still up in the air will be the omissions. Moir and White are probably the soft calls, but I'd expect there may be a 'shock to some' omission, just for a bit of standard setting. Of course the more likely possibility is that we'll be sitting here tomorrow shaking our heads over some 'eye rolling ::) ' decision and asking "Why?"
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 09, 2025, 10:29:55 pm
West Coast came early. Arrived over in Adelaide about Tuesday, so they could be up and about.
Make no mistake, they will see this as a very winnable game against a side travelling as poorly as them. Their coach will know a thing or two about how to knock us off having come from Richmond. I am not as confident as others about winning this game or others.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Lods on April 10, 2025, 08:17:42 am
Take nothing for granted... The worst thing that could happen would be that the players think they just have to turn up to win. Pressure and intensity from the start to the finish will get the job done.
But lose this game and the place will implode. I'd even be tempted to grab a pitchfork myself.
They have issues with players looking to leave the place They have the worst attack and defence in the league and while we only just shade them in attack our defence is 150+ points better after 4 games. I can't see how they kick a winning score against us.
But these games are set up for the upset. It will be an 'interesting' week if things don't go our way.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: ratlice on April 10, 2025, 10:34:06 am
We found a way to lose against Richmond, a 54-point turnaround!!! This will be a message to Voss & co if we lose again.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: cookie2 on April 10, 2025, 11:33:29 am
If I were a Weagles supporter I would be looking forward to this one.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Lods on April 10, 2025, 11:40:29 am
Treat this with caution. I've seen it in three different places, but they might all be feeding off one another. I have a strong feeling that may be the case with one of the sources.
In: Harry, Carroll, Cottrell, Durdin
Out: Young, Cowan, Lord, Moir
Sub: Doc
We'll see how reliable it turns out to be.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Professer E on April 10, 2025, 11:42:55 am
Really? Are those selections "establishing standards"?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Lods on April 10, 2025, 11:55:12 am
Really? Are those selections "establishing standards"?
Treat them with a grain of salt at the moment. I'm just curious to see how reliable they are. Wait and see how legit they turn out to be... Lord went OK last week It would be hard to see them dropping him. (I hear he's on the plane, so those selections could be BS)
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Thryleon on April 10, 2025, 01:06:33 pm
Treat this with caution. I've seen it in three different places, but they might all be feeding off one another. I have a strong feeling that may be the case with one of the sources.
In: Harry, Carroll, Cottrell, Durdin
Out: Young, Cowan, Lord, Moir
Sub: Doc
We'll see how reliable it turns out to be.
In the case of Moir and young, yes.
We effectively played a man down with Moir getting two touches in 3 quarters of footy. Hes only a youngster, but he's in his second year of footy and we need to unlock the magic elixir more frequently where players in year 1 and 2 can somewhat hit the ground running at our footy club because almost none of them do.
Lewis young for Harry is a no brainer. Young performed ok against the Doggies but still had a couple of efforts that were match losing particularly one pass to nobody in forward 50 which was kickable if he backed himself. Was rubbish when it got hot vs Collingwood. Turned it over, and when he did get it, didnt want contact so dished it off ASAP.
With Lord, he had laid 8 tackles before he was subbed off vs Richmond. Was a strange sub selection given where the game was at, and it did nothing to help our cause so thus far, the treatment of Lord has been something that I have found bewildering in that game.
Beyond that though, not sure there are many other things that can be done. Voss has limiting levers to pull due to so many under performing players. You cant drop them all, and likewise whats coming in hasnt earned a spot, so you have to persist with the top liners until the pressure comes from underneath.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: northernblue on April 10, 2025, 01:34:47 pm
I’d still persevere with Moir, they gifted him 1 game, to not gift him a couple, is in my opinion counterproductive.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: pew2 on April 10, 2025, 02:49:39 pm
how about tackling and pressure acts and kms run in a game regarding E hollands i think his not that good ,sure that mark that pass but i think he needs to add more / hope proves me wrong
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Professer E on April 10, 2025, 03:05:00 pm
Delivers the ball intelligently inside 50 and both smart and skilled enough to generate shots on goal. As soon as he's fit, he's in for mind.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 10, 2025, 03:20:10 pm
I’d still persevere with Moir, they gifted him 1 game, to not gift him a couple, is in my opinion counterproductive.
Agree, got more talent than most and plays that hard to find 3rd forward role. Reminds me a bit of Philipou from Stkilda who can look as lazy as anything but who they have persisted with during many non productive games but is starting to look a player before being injured. Id make Moir work on a wing and make him run just to get him moving and involved.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 10, 2025, 03:22:35 pm
Delivers the ball intelligently inside 50 and both smart and skilled enough to generate shots on goal. As soon as he's fit, he's in for mind.
E.Hollands isn't quick but is a smart player who can give you good minutes on the ball or down forward. One of our first picked if fit IMHO and his output is really missed.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: LP on April 10, 2025, 03:35:32 pm
E.Hollands isn't quick but is a smart player who can give you good minutes on the ball or down forward. One of our first picked if fit IMHO and his output is really missed.
EH is not slow for his size, too many fans judge quick relative to the quickest players in the comp, but quick is always relative to the role being played.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: LordLucifer on April 10, 2025, 05:42:38 pm
West Coast came early. Arrived over in Adelaide about Tuesday, so they could be up and about.
They can smell the blood in the water, they know they are a chance against us.
In the last 4 games between us and them......our WORST performance has been a 63 point win. Our average winning margin against them in the last 4 games is 76 points.
They might think they are a chance based on our recent form this season, but on recent form against them, they shouldn't have high hopes.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: rocky on April 10, 2025, 06:27:54 pm
Treat this with caution. I've seen it in three different places, but they might all be feeding off one another. I have a strong feeling that may be the case with one of the sources.
In: Harry, Carroll, Cottrell, Durdin
Out: Young, Cowan, Lord, Moir
Sub: Doc
We'll see how reliable it turns out to be.
Spot on Lods. Can't believe Lord has been dropped again.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 10, 2025, 06:32:24 pm
They can smell the blood in the water, they know they are a chance against us.
In the last 4 games between us and them......our WORST performance has been a 63 point win. Our average winning margin against them in the last 4 games is 76 points.
They might think they are a chance based on our recent form this season, but on recent form against them, they shouldn't have high hopes.
Agree, we should beat them comfortably without too many problems. Our top players are way better than theirs and I expect our mids to dominate. Only area where they may make it awkward is down forward where Allen, Waterman, Ryan, and J Cripps are a reasonable unit but with limited supply I don't see a problem.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: pertz on April 10, 2025, 07:03:54 pm
In the last 4 games between us and them......our WORST performance has been a 63 point win. Our average winning margin against them in the last 4 games is 76 points.
They might think they are a chance based on our recent form this season, but on recent form against them, they shouldn't have high hopes.
Agree, we should beat them comfortably without too many problems. Our top players are way better than theirs and I expect our mids to dominate. Only area where they may make it awkward is down forward where Allen, Waterman, Ryan, and J Cripps are a reasonable unit but with limited supply I don't see a problem.
We will beat them comfortably. Only the margin is in question. I predict 48 points on a fast track. Some of our downhill skiers should return to form.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: BluePhantom on April 10, 2025, 07:11:00 pm
I’d still persevere with Moir, they gifted him 1 game, to not gift him a couple, is in my opinion counterproductive.
Gifting one game might be excusable but rewarding a witch’s hat is not.
100% this, he wasn't exactly tearing down the door at selection, he was virtually a witches hat in the 2s and Bradbury'd over the line for a game.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: crashlander on April 10, 2025, 08:30:23 pm
Our line-up for Saturday:
B: [1] Jack Silvagni [23] Jacob Weitering [26] Nick Haynes HB: [42] Adam Saad [11] Mitch McGovern [6] Zac Williams C: [13] Blake Acres [9] Patrick Cripps [5] Adam Cerra HF: [8] Lachie Fogarty [10] Harry McKay [15] Sam Docherty F: [46] Matthew Cottrell [30] Charlie Curnow [3] Jesse Motlop R: [12] Tom De Koning [29] George Hewett [18] Sam Walsh Int: [32] Matthew Carroll [4] Oliver Hollands [17] Brodie Kemp [19] Corey Durdin [38] Will White
Em: [20] Elijah Hollands [33] Lewis Young [36] Cooper Lord
I'd be starting Walsh on the wing, rather than in the middle. I can't see Williams in defence. Doc: if he can get 30 decent possessions rather than the rubbish he had last week, then he could turn the game. Not sure if he has it in him any longer: he's lost that yard of pace and is not making great decisions. Charlie and H usually dine out on the Weagle defenders, but neither would be as fit as they usually are. I hope they can find form, as we need them badly. Fog is lucky to be there. He hasn't been horrible, but he hasn't kicked goals. Elijah looked a week away last week, but not having a game this week hurts him. A 25+ possessions game in the 2'd would have been very handy.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: madbluboy on April 10, 2025, 09:45:14 pm
Got to feel for Young, had to bust his guts against the good sides and then dropped for the easier ones.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Professer E on April 10, 2025, 11:17:00 pm
I don't see how the named side sends any messages about "standards". Ollie Hollands was in the best and has been relegated to the bench. Thanks for your efforts.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: DJC on April 11, 2025, 08:23:35 am
I don't see how the named side sends any messages about "standards". Ollie Hollands was in the best and has been relegated to the bench. Thanks for your efforts.
I’m not sure that players are “relegated to the bench” these days Prof. If Ollie does start the game on the pine, it will only be a matter of minutes before he’s on the field.
The players would have a very different understanding of their roles, opponents and interchange patterns than what we may glean from the largely fictional lineups clubs put out.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Professer E on April 11, 2025, 09:02:52 am
I don't see how dropping kids after one game helps us long term, sure Moir was a traffic cone but Lord at least tries. I reckon Young is a scapegoat for others too.
I re-watched the clip this week which showed Alan Richard chasing a loose ball, and Voss comes in, and without any mercy absolutely and ruthlessly nails him. Totally fair, totally unnecessary...but it made a hell of a statement at the time. So it's pretty clear how M. Voss regards the contest.
Yet we select a side which includes blokes not committing 100% to contests, but Voss talks about "standards". Sorry Michael, but the selections I see aren't matching the talk. Keep picking the same names, keep seeing the same old behaviours. I was thinking after last week's presser that we might actually see a line in the sand moment.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: LordLucifer on April 11, 2025, 11:15:48 am
Quote
Dangerfield took in what the laconic, occasionally distracted, always capable Cameron had to say.
“He said ‘this is what we are paid to do. This is the time to turn the game’,” Dangerfield recalled post patch.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: DJC on April 11, 2025, 12:43:51 pm
Doc: if he can get 30 decent possessions rather than the rubbish he had last week, then he could turn the game. Not sure if he has it in him any longer: he's lost that yard of pace and is not making great decisions.
I can't recall a 30 possession game that had less positive impact on the outcome. I suspect that it's time that Doc and the MC accepted his limitations and refined his role. I think that he still has something to offer but it's not racking up inconsequential disposals.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Lods on April 11, 2025, 01:04:36 pm
Doc: if he can get 30 decent possessions rather than the rubbish he had last week, then he could turn the game. Not sure if he has it in him any longer: he's lost that yard of pace and is not making great decisions.
I can't recall a 30 possession game that had less positive impact on the outcome. I suspect that it's time that Doc and the MC accepted his limitations and refined his role. I think that he still has something to offer but it's not racking up inconsequential disposals.
I tend to agree with a lot of the criticism. I also think, like a few of his team-mates, he's a little down on confidence. Missing a year with injury is probably also a little bit harder to come back from at his age than when you're younger. 'Avoiding contact' is a thing you don't attach to Docherty at his best. But as it comes for all of us, his best is behind him.
Does he still have something to offer?
I'm not sure just what is the best way to use him. He's finding the ball. He's gaining territory. He gained 671 metres with his disposals last weekend. That was the best of both teams and over 100metres more than the second best which was Zac Williams (which may tell a tale about territory vs impact) Yep, The problem was that the territory gained was countered by disposal that saw the ball coming straight back the other way.
It's a dilemma. It may be his best contribution would be as a "playing" assistant coach at VFL level.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: pew2 on April 11, 2025, 02:12:14 pm
how can E Hollands be an emergency What has his Done / he needs to play 3 wks in reserves earn a spot JOKE
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: shawny on April 11, 2025, 02:51:13 pm
I can't recall a 30 possession game that had less positive impact on the outcome. I suspect that it's time that Doc and the MC accepted his limitations and refined his role. I think that he still has something to offer but it's not racking up inconsequential disposals.
I tend to agree with a lot of the criticism. I also think, like a few of his team-mates, he's a little down on confidence. Missing a year with injury is probably also a little bit harder to come back from at his age than when you're younger. 'Avoiding contact' is a thing you don't attach to Docherty at his best. But as it comes for all of us, his best is behind him.
Does he still have something to offer?
I'm not sure just what is the best way to use him. He's finding the ball. He's gaining territory. He gained 671 metres with his disposals last weekend. That was the best of both teams and over 100metres more than the second best which was Zac Williams (which may tell a tale about territory vs impact) Yep, The problem was that the territory gained was countered by disposal that saw the ball coming straight back the other way.
It's a dilemma. It may be his best contribution would be as a "playing" assistant coach at VFL level.
Doc is well past his best and in his final year but FMD i wish we ripped into others on the list as much as this bloke. Fans puts their arms around Harry and fair enough and also most support a highly paid bloke who cant control his drug habit yet no such going easy on Docherty who has heaps more runs on the board. I agree his last game last year and his 4 this year have been below standard but he is hardly on his own. How do the likes of McGovern's, Saad, Acres, Motlop, Williams, Haynes, Fogerty, Fantansa, Durdin, Young and i could go on get away with sub standard performances year after year?
That's one group of over rated footballers if ever ive seen one
And lets not forget our so called A grader 'Leaders' in Charlie, Cerra, Walsh and even Cripps who's salaries should have them being a lot more accountable for what they have provided us in 2025
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: ratlice on April 11, 2025, 03:15:56 pm
I tend to agree with a lot of the criticism. I also think, like a few of his team-mates, he's a little down on confidence. Missing a year with injury is probably also a little bit harder to come back from at his age than when you're younger. 'Avoiding contact' is a thing you don't attach to Docherty at his best. But as it comes for all of us, his best is behind him.
Does he still have something to offer?
I'm not sure just what is the best way to use him. He's finding the ball. He's gaining territory. He gained 671 metres with his disposals last weekend. That was the best of both teams and over 100metres more than the second best which was Zac Williams (which may tell a tale about territory vs impact) Yep, The problem was that the territory gained was countered by disposal that saw the ball coming straight back the other way.
It's a dilemma. It may be his best contribution would be as a "playing" assistant coach at VFL level.
Doc is well past his best and in his final year but FMD i wish we ripped into others on the list as much as this bloke. Fans puts their arms around Harry and fair enough and also most support a highly paid bloke who cant control his drug habit yet no such going easy on Docherty who has heaps more runs on the board. I agree his last game last year and his 4 this year have been below standard but he is hardly on his own. How do the likes of McGovern's, Saad, Acres, Motlop, Williams, Haynes, Fogerty, Fantansa, Durdin, Young and i could go on get away with sub standard performances year after year?
That's one group of over rated footballers if ever ive seen one
And lets not forget our so called A grader 'Leaders' in Charlie, Cerra, Walsh and even Cripps who's salaries should have them being a lot more accountable for what they have provided us in 2025
Isn't it the coach's responsibility to get the most out of his players?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Adelaideblue on April 11, 2025, 05:48:32 pm
Large crowd at Glenelg oval this afternoon for Captain's Run. Probably only meant to be a light run, but group fairly languid with some showing kicking skills to match! Adam Saad looked more professional in a quick fire handball session with Vossy. Noticed Jaxon Binns (25) training, not sure if significant. Certainly a slim build at this stage. Emergencies Lord, E. Holland and Young trained. Harry Mackay looked to be kicking for goal well. It will be interesting to see his impact tomorrow. The young supporters certainly were enjoying getting signatures from the players after the run through. Fingers crossed for tomorrow. :)
Ab
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: PaulP on April 11, 2025, 05:52:37 pm
Nice work Ab. Thanks.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Lods on April 11, 2025, 06:03:35 pm
Doc is well past his best and in his final year but FMD i wish we ripped into others on the list as much as this bloke. Fans puts their arms around Harry and fair enough and also most support a highly paid bloke who cant control his drug habit yet no such going easy on Docherty who has heaps more runs on the board. I agree his last game last year and his 4 this year have been below standard but he is hardly on his own. How do the likes of McGovern's, Saad, Acres, Motlop, Williams, Haynes, Fogerty, Fantansa, Durdin, Young and i could go on get away with sub standard performances year after year?
Don't look at the questioning of him holding his position as ripping into him. A lot of the comments regarding his form at the moment come from a place of deep respect for the player. He's battled his heart out on a number of occasions to get back playing. He's battled injury and illness...and gone above and beyond.
While we'd like to see better form from some of the players you mention we're probably not as invested with them as we are in where Docherty now sits. We'd all love to see him hit his straps and show some good form. What we don't want to see is him struggling in his last games, pushing through, and reaching an end point where it ends with a bit of a whimper.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: rocky on April 11, 2025, 06:34:08 pm
I certainly have been critical of Doc's form but he's about 4 or 5 players behind some other blokes who'd I'd axe based on form. That of course doesn't happen in a week but we got rid of a couple this game. I'm hoping he gets his mojo back soon, maybe he won't, but there's still a couple who I still can't understand get a game.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: PaulP on April 11, 2025, 06:56:12 pm
If we are axing the players who are below their best / out of form, we would forfeit the game.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: LP on April 12, 2025, 07:52:34 am
Player form is always relative to the team performance, the Swans are the current examp!e with only 1 or 2 down the squad looks ordinary. We've got 3 to 5 struggling and look decrepit.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: shawny on April 12, 2025, 08:38:26 am
Watch King Charles dine out the next 2 weeks.
Want to see him deliver against strong opposition and do it consistently. Great to watch when on top of his game but i think that excitement clouds over his flaws.
Watching Pies key forwards last night as they are examples of no frills pure team first competitors that do their job for team every week for a hell of a lot less damage on their cap.
Our guys highlight reel is better but when you compare to what we are paying its debatable that we are getting value on that deal apart from young members signings. Add in Harrys 1M and no wonder we have no money for decent small forwards.
Pies have 3 talls that contribute and then 3 dangerous smalls at their feet. We have 2 highly paid 'Stars' and then nadda.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 12, 2025, 10:21:10 am
Want to see him deliver against strong opposition and do it consistently. Great to watch when on top of his game but i think that excitement clouds over his flaws.
Watching Pies key forwards last night as they are examples of no frills pure team first competitors that do their job for team every week for a hell of a lot less damage on their cap.
Our guys highlight reel is better but when you compare to what we are paying its debatable that we are getting value on that deal apart from young members signings. Add in Harrys 1M and no wonder we have no money for decent small forwards.
Pies have 3 talls that contribute and then 3 dangerous smalls at their feet. We have 2 highly paid 'Stars' and then nadda.
Right now King Charles looks more like Pauper Charles. Hopefully he and Harry can kick a few, get involved and gain some semblance of form.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 12, 2025, 11:10:05 am
Want to see him deliver against strong opposition and do it consistently. Great to watch when on top of his game but i think that excitement clouds over his flaws.
Watching Pies key forwards last night as they are examples of no frills pure team first competitors that do their job for team every week for a hell of a lot less damage on their cap.
Our guys highlight reel is better but when you compare to what we are paying its debatable that we are getting value on that deal apart from young members signings. Add in Harrys 1M and no wonder we have no money for decent small forwards.
Pies have 3 talls that contribute and then 3 dangerous smalls at their feet. We have 2 highly paid 'Stars' and then nadda.
Right now King Charles looks more like Pauper Charles. Hopefully he and Harry can kick a few, get involved and gain some semblance of form.
They won't get a better chance than vs unknowns like Edwards and Brock who play the Key defensive spots for WC. We should win by ten goals plus....
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Baggers on April 12, 2025, 12:06:56 pm
Right now King Charles looks more like Pauper Charles. Hopefully he and Harry can kick a few, get involved and gain some semblance of form.
They won't get a better chance than vs unknowns like Edwards and Brock who play the Key defensive spots for WC. We should win by ten goals plus....
Yep.
In a way, we're on a hiding to nothing!
Win by 10gls plus and its... 'And so we should.' Win by 5-10 gls and its... 'Should have won by more - still got issues.' Win by less than 5 gls and its... 'Nowhere good enough against such a lowly opponent - still in trouble.' Lose and its...
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Lods on April 12, 2025, 12:17:03 pm
They won't get a better chance than vs unknowns like Edwards and Brock who play the Key defensive spots for WC. We should win by ten goals plus....
Yep.
In a way, we're on a hiding to nothing!
Win by 10gls plus and its... 'And so we should.' Win by 5-10 gls and its... 'Should have won by more - still got issues.' Win by less than 5 gls and its... 'Nowhere good enough against such a lowly opponent - still in trouble.' Lose and its...
Right now, Ill take a one point win, followed by another and another rinse and repeat. Im utterly sick of the crap that goes along with losing.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: PaulP on April 12, 2025, 12:37:17 pm
Blake Acres a late out.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round
Post by: Lods on April 12, 2025, 01:14:04 pm
Win by 10gls plus and its... 'And so we should.' Win by 5-10 gls and its... 'Should have won by more - still got issues.' Win by less than 5 gls and its... 'Nowhere good enough against such a lowly opponent - still in trouble.' Lose and its...
Right now, Ill take a one point win, followed by another and another rinse and repeat. Im utterly sick of the crap that goes along with losing.
Beating WC by a slender margin won't help the club or Voss and the critics will still be in our back and nothing will change . Need to see a good strong win with a good brand of football. We have become a horrible team to watch with no definitive brand of play whose skills are nowhere near what we have seen in the two games so far this round. Doesn't help playing WC who are a sub par team with poor skills and where we will probably get dragged down to their level. Four points is a start but I want some skillful classy football where we totally dominate the opposition and keep the pressure on for 4 quarters and crush them.