Carlton Supporters Club

De Koning, Hewett and Cripps did okay.

Nothing good can come from that 10 goal flogging, just get on the plane, go home and start again on Monday.

Quote from: Gointocarlton – on May 03, 2025, 07:37:33 pm

Nothing good can come from that 10 goal flogging, just get on the plane, go home and start again on Monday.

And thats what they will do. Forget the result and hope for a better result next week.

Exactly the attitude of bottom tier teams.

Im certain they will review it hard on Monday where many will find it uncomfotable and then move on. Thats what top tier teams do.

I hear people saying that the saying "they didn't turn up to play" is a bit of a nonsense
That sides always turn up to play.

They may turn up physically, but our side today certainly didn't turn up prepared to commit 100% to the contest.
It was obvious in the first five minutes that they weren't in the same frame of mind as they were last week.
You could tell by the lack of pressure.
When we're 'on', there is the intensity at the ball and it often shows in the two on one tackles.

We looked slow...maybe that was due in part to the fact we had a hard game last week and less rest than Adelaide.
But if we didn't accept that as a reason Geelong performed poorly last week, it's a bit hypocritical for us to use it as an excuse.

Probably another week for hard conversations, because we don't want to lose to the mob we play next week.

After the last 2 years I'm not calling anything yet. Cartton and GWS went from 4-9 to the PF in 2023. Last year Brisbane had won 3 1/2 games from the first 10. There's something to say about being in form at the right time. It's a marathon, not a sprint.

We got the Aints.

Just having a look at the team stats
It looked bad watching but…
We were trounced on the stat sheet as well
The only ones we won were the stoppage clearances (just) and the tackles (that’s because they had the ball)…and the free kicks for...oh and the turnovers, we won that one too.
Lost the ruck contests 45-19- O’ Brien had 40 to DeKoning’s 16

On the individual stats-just don’t look, there is nothing of joy there.

Well, now to go watch Vossy's blue skies and fairy floss media conference. No doubt there'll be the minimizing of issues chucked in for good measure.

I like Voss' approach. We can only go by his public statements. What he says behind closed doors is anyone's guess. If you don't have belief in your players, in your system etc, then you are defeated before you even cross the line. It's a bit like Malthouse with his now infamous comment about not seeing where we can lose a game : it's about mindset. Voss' comments (echoed by various experts in the media) that defensively we are pretty solid, and the tough stuff around the ball is also pretty solid, but that taking the next step is proving elusive. Voss was happy to admit that yesterday was a stinker, but you don't throw out 2 seasons of finals (and one near miss in 2022) after one lousy game. But no doubt, as far as this season is concerned, time is running out.

When Voss says the things he says (belief in players/systems  etc) who is he addressing.
Obviously he's answering a journos question and there may be an attempt to stifle any criticism from that area.
That's futile.

His greater target is probably the members and supporters
"Stick with us, kind of stuff"
I think the problem is that there comes a point where those members and supporters don't buy that anymore...and there are definite issues, which of course he is reluctant to reveal publicly.

I'm not reading much into it until after next week. If we win that then it was a case of being just physically knackered after the Geelong game. That was brutal. If not, then it's obviously something else.

Lose to the sniffers and it's game over season 2025. Reality.

Quote from: Professer E – on May 04, 2025, 09:56:02 am

Lose to the sniffers and it's game over season 2025. Reality.

Its already season over mate.

Have to win 11 of the last 15 to make finals.

Not going to happen with this flaky list. Time to accept it for what it is and get brutal in the off season for once and stop thinking this list is capable of more then a middle tier team.

Heard all the excuses year and year after year. had a good run in the second half of 2023 with this rebuild and failed every other year. And those posters wanting us to remember Brisbanes start last year as something we can do is comparing a apple with a watermelon.

Their list is far superior to ours their coaching is superior and they finished the previous year 2 points shy of winning the flag.

We scrapped in finals last year with pure out of our hands luck and then game was over at quarter time in the EF.

Accept it for what it is folks cause this list is or coaching group is not getting us No17

Quote from: PaulP – on May 04, 2025, 09:54:46 am

I like Voss' approach. We can only go by his public statements. What he says behind closed doors is anyone's guess. If you don't have belief in your players, in your system etc, then you are defeated before you even cross the line. It's a bit like Malthouse with his now infamous comment about not seeing where we can lose a game : it's about mindset. Voss' comments (echoed by various experts in the media) that defensively we are pretty solid, and the tough stuff around the ball is also pretty solid, but that taking the next step is proving elusive. Voss was happy to admit that yesterday was a stinker, but you don't throw out 2 seasons of finals (and one near miss in 2022) after one lousy game. But no doubt, as far as this season is concerned, time is running out.

When Voss says the things he says (belief in players/systems  etc) who is he addressing.
Obviously he's answering a journos question and there may be an attempt to stifle any criticism from that area.
That's futile.

His greater target is probably the members and supporters
"Stick with us" kind of stuff
I think the problem is that there comes a point where those members and supporters don't buy that anymore...and there are definite issues, which of course he is reluctant to reveal publicly.

i have been saying this all year from the start of the F>>>>kn year after a practice match " nothing changed " from 24 ,until we get physical  strong and running players into side and change that u12 long bomb game plan we are going nowhere . There a stat i want to introduce which side kicks straight to opposition the most ,we do it every week and our downfall begins .

Quote from: pew2 – on May 04, 2025, 04:08:22 pm

i have been saying this all year from the start of the F>>>>kn year after a practice match " nothing changed " from 24 ,until we get physical  strong and running players into side and change that u12 long bomb game plan we are going nowhere . There a stat i want to introduce which side kicks straight to opposition the most ,we do it every week and our downfall begins .

That sad part about yesterday is that our strength all year (our defence) was the cause of of downfall yesterday. We missed SOS more than we may think.

You will have to scroll through to the 14.45 min to see Matthew Lloyd have a look at our defence in action.
It's not pretty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nYV6QQotas

Just in defence of Weitering where he's standing like a statue...
Both Young and DeKoning are in that contest, we didn't need another tall in there. Weitering's positioned himself between the contest and the goals.

I doubt defence had much to do with that loss given the coal-face was a demolition, we might look at defence and assert it has to be better, but we still would not win after the way we were dominated over the other 66% of the field. Our F50 structure and function evaporated, it was pretty much non-existent with or without the footy.

In some respects, focussing on the defence errors is a diversion / distraction from the real problem. The Crows smashed us at stoppages and ran unhindered in waves out of their own D50, they made us look like clowns as they moved the ball through the midfield, it was like a primary school game of keepings off.

Any defence will fail in that circumstance, the method of failure might vary subject to strengths and weaknesses, but it will still fail.

That game was a 22 man failure.

I doubt defence had much to do with that loss given the coal-face was a demolition, we might look at defence and assert it has to be better, but we still would not win after the way we were dominated over the other 66% of the field. Our F50 structure and function evaporated, it was pretty much non-existent with or without the footy.

In some respects, focussing on the defence errors is a diversion / distraction from the real problem. The Crows smashed us at stoppages and ran unhindered in waves out of their own D50, they made us look like clowns as they moved the ball through the midfield, it was like a primary school game of keepings off.

Any defence will fail in that circumstance, the method of failure might vary subject to strengths and weaknesses, but it will still fail.

My favourite part was the long kick down the line to Charlie Curnow who somehow was outnumbered 3 to 1 and being held at every contest.   Beyond that, the occasional kick it to motlop who was standinga gainst a much taller opponent.  Probably needed to skid the ball in along the ground with some mongrel kicks at ground level and create some chaos, but our team doesnt seem to like that approach.

Look at the size of our injury list going into every and every game this year.....and look at the corresponding result that followed.

Regardless of the opposition, there is a very distinct pattern there.

The fittest we've been all year was Rounds 5-7, and our best results followed.

So yes, its personnel, yes its structure, yes its coaching, yes its effort.....but all of them are very strongly linked to the players you have available.
People don't want excuses, but people don't listen to reasons.

Structurally, experience and effort wise, missing silvagni and cottrell (and williams) left a big hole compared to the week before.
356 games experience by the 3 forced outs.
276 games by the 3 ins (175 of which was docherty who is not in good form and playing his final year IMO)

We need to have adequate cover for people going out and currently, we don't. Results swing based on who is playing, rather than who we are playing against.

Unsurprisingly, no Carlton player in the Coaches' votes. Tells a tale.

This is just a stinker. I'll wait until next week to see more of what is happening. That will tell me more about last Saturday. I've seen us stink games up worse in premiership seasons.  You don't do what we did against Geelong to go back to last week without a good reason. You beat Geelong as we did then you can play. A win or loss next week will tell me more, eg usual crappy attitude v feeling absolutely flat from the Geelong game, which was brutal.

Quote from: kruddler – on May 05, 2025, 01:37:17 pm

Look at the size of our injury list going into every and every game this year.....and look at the corresponding result that followed.

Regardless of the opposition, there is a very distinct pattern there.

The fittest we've been all year was Rounds 5-7, and our best results followed.

So yes, its personnel, yes its structure, yes its coaching, yes its effort.....but all of them are very strongly linked to the players you have available.
People don't want excuses, but people don't listen to reasons.

Structurally, experience and effort wise, missing silvagni and cottrell (and williams) left a big hole compared to the week before.
356 games experience by the 3 forced outs.
276 games by the 3 ins (175 of which was docherty who is not in good form and playing his final year IMO)

We need to have adequate cover for people going out and currently, we don't. Results swing based on who is playing, rather than who we are playing against.

Crows had a few out as well...Murray their Fullback, Hinge and Crouch both regulars, for sure we struggle with injuries but is that more to do with we have zero depth in several key positions and a lot of the other decent teams can cover their players better?

Look at the size of our injury list going into every and every game this year.....and look at the corresponding result that followed.

Regardless of the opposition, there is a very distinct pattern there.

The fittest we've been all year was Rounds 5-7, and our best results followed.

So yes, its personnel, yes its structure, yes its coaching, yes its effort.....but all of them are very strongly linked to the players you have available.
People don't want excuses, but people don't listen to reasons.

Structurally, experience and effort wise, missing silvagni and cottrell (and williams) left a big hole compared to the week before.
356 games experience by the 3 forced outs.
276 games by the 3 ins (175 of which was docherty who is not in good form and playing his final year IMO)

We need to have adequate cover for people going out and currently, we don't. Results swing based on who is playing, rather than who we are playing against.

@shawny those losses dont talk about the way the game was played.

The bulldogs result was one of 8 points at the death, with a second half performance that saw us make errors to cause that.  Thats not about capability, but ability to execute in pressure moments.

The Richmond game is one of mentality.  We cruised to 42 points up, and then when the game became a bit more chaotic were not able to bring composure and control into the game to combat it.  Execution the issue, not ability but you could argue capability in these circumstances. 

Adelaide loss was akin to the Richmond one, where we were unable to change the game and put it on our terms.  We were beaten soundly at every line, but this is not one that speaks for ability.  It speaks about execution, and capability to perform under intense pressure.

This is somewhat seperate to what players can and cannot do.  Games of experience are important for a variety of reasons.  Its what causes players to be unable to execute under pressure.  The more inexperience you have in concentrated areas of the park, the more this issue compounds.  Charlie and Harry have not had a lot continuity lately.  Motlop and Durdin have played about 15 games at the same time as the aforementioned all together. 

Our midfield group was the one that has the most games playing together, and it was obliterated, so once we were beaten there, a relatively inexperienced backline group (Haynes and Ollie Hollands have played about 7 games in the same defense) then it starts to unravel a little.  We are on what, year 4 of the Voss coaching regime?  69 games into his coaching of our footy club, after what I can only label as a lack of continuity in club leadership.  Matthew Nicks is on 114 games with that group.  You could argue that they have had less wholesale changes in their group and adjustment of strategy in that time, as a fair whack of it is the continuation from Don Pyke, who coached there for 4 years and another 88 games.  Thats 2 senior coaches for a club that soundly beat us, where we have gone from Malthouse into a giant rebuild, massive player movement, into Bolton, Teague and now Voss.  Who are all different coaches, and have effectively had to have major shifts in what we are doing. 

Is it any wonder that our system fails to stand up so regularly when challenged?  The biggest challenge that I see for any coach of Carlton over the last 10 years (which takes us back to Mick Malthouse) is the sheer lack of continuity of strategy.  This translates to what we see at times in games.  Particularly once you start taking experienced players out of our team.  Williams, Newman, JSOS are big enough losses for us to have a bit of a mare when you start putting it all together particularly if our opponent is on the same page. 

Our form is poorer than our ability and capability, and im not sure what getting emotional about it all will achieve but happy to hear you vent your frustrations. 

@shawny those losses dont talk about the way the game was played.

The bulldogs result was one of 8 points at the death, with a second half performance that saw us make errors to cause that.  Thats not about capability, but ability to execute in pressure moments.

The Richmond game is one of mentality.  We cruised to 42 points up, and then when the game became a bit more chaotic were not able to bring composure and control into the game to combat it.  Execution the issue, not ability but you could argue capability in these circumstances. 

Adelaide loss was akin to the Richmond one, where we were unable to change the game and put it on our terms.  We were beaten soundly at every line, but this is not one that speaks for ability.  It speaks about execution, and capability to perform under intense pressure.

This is somewhat seperate to what players can and cannot do.  Games of experience are important for a variety of reasons.  Its what causes players to be unable to execute under pressure.  The more inexperience you have in concentrated areas of the park, the more this issue compounds.  Charlie and Harry have not had a lot continuity lately.  Motlop and Durdin have played about 15 games at the same time as the aforementioned all together. 

Our midfield group was the one that has the most games playing together, and it was obliterated, so once we were beaten there, a relatively inexperienced backline group (Haynes and Ollie Hollands have played about 7 games in the same defense) then it starts to unravel a little.  We are on what, year 4 of the Voss coaching regime?  69 games into his coaching of our footy club, after what I can only label as a lack of continuity in club leadership.  Matthew Nicks is on 114 games with that group.  You could argue that they have had less wholesale changes in their group and adjustment of strategy in that time, as a fair whack of it is the continuation from Don Pyke, who coached there for 4 years and another 88 games.  Thats 2 senior coaches for a club that soundly beat us, where we have gone from Malthouse into a giant rebuild, massive player movement, into Bolton, Teague and now Voss.  Who are all different coaches, and have effectively had to have major shifts in what we are doing. 

Is it any wonder that our system fails to stand up so regularly when challenged?  The biggest challenge that I see for any coach of Carlton over the last 10 years (which takes us back to Mick Malthouse) is the sheer lack of continuity of strategy.  This translates to what we see at times in games.  Particularly once you start taking experienced players out of our team.  Williams, Newman, JSOS are big enough losses for us to have a bit of a mare when you start putting it all together particularly if our opponent is on the same page. 

Our form is poorer than our ability and capability, and im not sure what getting emotional about it all will achieve but happy to hear you vent your frustrations. 

Does that reflect on the coach?..eg Longmuir is copping plenty of heat in relation to Freo's poor results given they are seen as a talented list.

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on May 06, 2025, 03:33:38 pm

Does that reflect on the coach?..eg Longmuir is copping plenty of heat in relation to Freo's poor results given they are seen as a talented list.

Good question.

Thing is, we are not the same team in every year of Voss tenure.  Longmuir plays a kick mark style of football that is both boring to watch, and experienced minimal success.

We played in a preliminary final 2 years ago.  So either our coach is a mug, and the players over achieved to get there in a crappy system in his second/third year, or we have attempted to change the way we play to something that is taking a bit of time to bed in, and having a lot of player upheaval and change in the process. 

You cant have the list is crap and the coach is crap, because then we made a preliminary final for no reason.

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on May 06, 2025, 03:33:38 pm

Does that reflect on the coach?..eg Longmuir is copping plenty of heat in relation to Freo's poor results given they are seen as a talented list.

Good question.

Thing is, we are not the same team in every year of Voss tenure.  Longmuir plays a kick mark style of football that is both boring to watch, and experienced minimal success.

We played in a preliminary final 2 years ago.  So either our coach is a mug, and the players over achieved to get there in a crappy system in his second/third year, or we have attempted to change the way we play to something that is taking a bit of time to bed in, and having a lot of player upheaval and change in the process. 

You cant have the list is crap and the coach is crap, because then we made a preliminary final for no reason.

Quote from: shawny – on May 04, 2025, 01:02:54 pm

Its already season over mate.

Have to win 11 of the last 15 to make finals.

Not going to happen with this flaky list. Time to accept it for what it is and get brutal in the off season for once and stop thinking this list is capable of more then a middle tier team.

Heard all the excuses year and year after year. had a good run in the second half of 2023 with this rebuild and failed every other year. And those posters wanting us to remember Brisbanes start last year as something we can do is comparing a apple with a watermelon.

Their list is far superior to ours their coaching is superior and they finished the previous year 2 points shy of winning the flag.

We scrapped in finals last year with pure out of our hands luck and then game was over at quarter time in the EF.

Accept it for what it is folks cause this list is or coaching group is not getting us No17

We had to win yesterday to turn it into 50/50 win / loss at best. Whilst mathematically its possible to make finals, its highly unlucky now and a loss to the saints will put the nail in the coffin.

Quote from: Thryleon – on May 06, 2025, 04:27:26 pm

Good question.

Thing is, we are not the same team in every year of Voss tenure.  Longmuir plays a kick mark style of football that is both boring to watch, and experienced minimal success.

We played in a preliminary final 2 years ago.  So either our coach is a mug, and the players over achieved to get there in a crappy system in his second/third year, or we have attempted to change the way we play to something that is taking a bit of time to bed in, and having a lot of player upheaval and change in the process. 

You cant have the list is crap and the coach is crap, because then we made a preliminary final for no reason.

Do you think other teams improving is a factor,  and teams that were meant to drop away haven't and we seem to have stagnated or gone backwards.
Eg I notice that Collingwood who should have fallen into the abyss after their premiership year  with their ageing list are resting three good players this week vs Fremantle. If we rested the likes of Pendlebury  Maynard and Degoey and took the cautious approach with Charlie like they have with Mihocek we would be smashed this week.
Voss is very limited imo with what he has to work with and needs his best 22 out there every week to compete which is near impossible and every now and then it happens but it's not sustainable over a long season.

Quote from: Thryleon – on May 06, 2025, 04:27:26 pm

Good question.

Thing is, we are not the same team in every year of Voss tenure.  Longmuir plays a kick mark style of football that is both boring to watch, and experienced minimal success.

We played in a preliminary final 2 years ago.  So either our coach is a mug, and the players over achieved to get there in a crappy system in his second/third year, or we have attempted to change the way we play to something that is taking a bit of time to bed in, and having a lot of player upheaval and change in the process. 

You cant have the list is crap and the coach is crap, because then we made a preliminary final for no reason.

Falling into a prelim in 2023 by 2 narrow cut throat final wins was the worst thing to happen to the list. It made them think we are almost there and couldn't be further from the truth

We over achieved and the fact we havent got close to that form since confirms that.

Quote from: shawny – on May 06, 2025, 05:33:45 pm

Falling into a prelim in 2023 by 2 narrow cut throat final wins was the worst thing to happen to the list. It made them think we are almost there and couldn't be further from the truth

We over achieved and the fact we havent got close to that form since confirms that.

Going back a few posts, your end comment is how i feel. Our list is not good enough. Its not DEEP enough. We can't cover injuries well enough. I said that in the off-season.

Now to the above post, i don't disagree that it has hurt us as a club. But i'll ask the same question that was asked before.
Is that on the coach?

The fact the coach (and list) got us to a prelim wasn't simply luck.
So whats changed since?
IMO, poor list management!
Has Voss forgotten how to coach? Our effort against the cats suggests otherwise. I made a comment that stated Voss did to the cats what a premiership coach in Adam Simpson was unable to do....make them change their game plan.
So whats changed since? Personnel is a big one and most obvious one.

You don't want to hear 'excuses'. You want results.
How do you get results if you don't understand why they are happening?

Someone talked about cars earlier.
Your car breaks down. You don't know why. Do you take it to a mechanic who does a full service and checks everything, does an analysis of what the problem is?
Or
Do you change the wiper blades and hope that fixes it?
Do you then pump up the tyres and hope that fixes it?
Do you change what fuel you put in and hope that fixes it??

Without understanding WHY things happen, you can't work out how to STOP them from happening. Until you do, any change you make is just a shot in the dark and a waste of time. Dumb luck may mean you'll get it right sometimes......not often.
We keep sacking the coach and not fixing other areas.
Development and list management is currently where are issues are IMO.
You could arguably add injury prevention to that, but moreso in the past.......but even then, did that fall on the MC for not listening to S+C coach??

Focus on understanding the problem - Find the REASON for it.....its not an excuse, its a reason.

Quote from: kruddler – on May 06, 2025, 07:24:38 pm

Going back a few posts, your end comment is how i feel. Our list is not good enough. Its not DEEP enough. We can't cover injuries well enough. I said that in the off-season.

Now to the above post, i don't disagree that it has hurt us as a club. But i'll ask the same question that was asked before.
Is that on the coach?

The fact the coach (and list) got us to a prelim wasn't simply luck.
So whats changed since?
IMO, poor list management!
Has Voss forgotten how to coach? Our effort against the cats suggests otherwise. I made a comment that stated Voss did to the cats what a premiership coach in Adam Simpson was unable to do....make them change their game plan.
So whats changed since? Personnel is a big one and most obvious one.

You don't want to hear 'excuses'. You want results.
How do you get results if you don't understand why they are happening?

Someone talked about cars earlier.
Your car breaks down. You don't know why. Do you take it to a mechanic who does a full service and checks everything, does an analysis of what the problem is?
Or
Do you change the wiper blades and hope that fixes it?
Do you then pump up the tyres and hope that fixes it?
Do you change what fuel you put in and hope that fixes it??

Without understanding WHY things happen, you can't work out how to STOP them from happening. Until you do, any change you make is just a shot in the dark and a waste of time. Dumb luck may mean you'll get it right sometimes......not often.
We keep sacking the coach and not fixing other areas.
Development and list management is currently where are issues are IMO.
You could arguably add injury prevention to that, but moreso in the past.......but even then, did that fall on the MC for not listening to S+C coach??

Focus on understanding the problem - Find the REASON for it.....its not an excuse, its a reason.

Where we differ is when you make comments inferring we lost a game because of one or 2 players missing or not enough crowd support.

Those are excuses not reasons and to me make it sound like there is a simple fix to get us winning again where imo there is no quick fix to our issues as no team gets through a season without losing soldiers and to use the injury line everytime we lose is a cop
out and not facing reality

The reason we have dropped away is we stood idle while those around us didnt . Thats falls squarely on the LM.

Quote from: Thryleon – on May 06, 2025, 04:27:26 pm

Good question.

Thing is, we are not the same team in every year of Voss tenure.  Longmuir plays a kick mark style of football that is both boring to watch, and experienced minimal success.

We played in a preliminary final 2 years ago.  So either our coach is a mug, and the players over achieved to get there in a crappy system in his second/third year, or we have attempted to change the way we play to something that is taking a bit of time to bed in, and having a lot of player upheaval and change in the process. 

You cant have the list is crap and the coach is crap, because then we made a preliminary final for no reason.

Do you think other teams improving is a factor,  and teams that were meant to drop away haven't and we seem to have stagnated or gone backwards.
Eg I notice that Collingwood who should have fallen into the abyss after their premiership year  with their ageing list are resting three good players this week vs Fremantle. If we rested the likes of Pendlebury  Maynard and Degoey and took the cautious approach with Charlie like they have with Mihocek we would be smashed this week.
Voss is very limited imo with what he has to work with and needs his best 22 out there every week to compete which is near impossible and every now and then it happens but it's not sustainable over a long season.