Carlton Supporters Club

Positives.

Motlop's best game for the club, both in attack and defence, I'll have him close to our BoG despite the late miss.

Ollie H getting better, good overhead and 1st class attack on the footy and the ball carrier.

Hewett must be borderline leadership for 2026.

I realise Goldstein is ageing, but it's good to see TDK do what he should be doing to these old blokes, hopefully Nankervis is next on his hit list. Don't bother wrestling with them, just get jumping and running.

Solid debut from HOK, has something.

We are a mid tier team and tonight proved that.

Scrapped a win against a fellow mid tier team far from full strength.

Any win against the enemy is nice BUT there is a gulf between us and a top 4 team which still leaves me disappointed on where i thought we may be. 

we we likely get the easy kills in the next few weeks get all the fans hopes up but yhis list of footballers is not going to cut it against the very best teams when the whips are cracking and thats a fact

Positives - 4pts, George, Motlop, HOK, Acres coming good

There's plenty of negative posters who will bring the thread down, but before they do let me list some positives from tonight. Alas, most of us do fall to that from time to time. It is what we get for following a club that has disappointed us for so long. I always had faith in us when I was growing up. It is much harder to these days.

1. HOK. Big skull looked like he deserved to be out there. Play him next week. Need to get games into him now, especially if TDK leaves. Skull didn't fare that well in the ruck, but he took half a dozen clutch marks. I was really pleased by that. His kicking needs work, but even that is improving. A Big Plus from me!

2. Cincotta came back and played like we all remember he can. Hopefully he can stay fit from now, we are a better side with him in it. Cincotta was terribly fumbly tonight, and had only 3 possessions, but he kept Merrett ineffective. He will get better, but he is a long way off the pace at the moment. But as long as he does his job, he should remain.[/color

3. Williams came back and kicked a couple and brings a bit of class (and experience) to our forwards. Need to keep him fit as well. Williams was our best small forward tonight, even though Motlop got as many goals. Williams' disposal in the forward line is really important. 15 disposals first back and 2 goals was a good contribution.

4. 4 points. That's what we needed to get. That's what we got. Anything else is noise. Yes, we desperately needed a win, and we did it against the team higher than us on the ladder.

5. Got Eagles and North in the coming weeks. Lets get these baby steps up to a full on sprint in the next few weeks. Yes, we need to win these two games and win them well to gain some confidence and work on our system. We were unbeatable in the 1st quarter, poor in the 3th and good enough but for our finishing in the last. Lots of work to do yet.

For mine, silvagni was our most important player on the night.  Gave caddy an absolute bath.  When he had 2 metre peter for company stitched him up too.

They ended with Gresham playing defensive forward on him and that was the move that made Nick Haynes the more prominent interceptor and that almost swung the match in their favour.

We are a bit rudderless at the moment with a lack of leadership from Cripps, Weitering and Curnow......what could / should we read into that??

We are a bit rudderless at the moment with a lack of leadership from Cripps, Weitering and Curnow......what could / should we read into that??

We invent new ways every week to do dumb things.

There needs to be some serious remedial classes on hitting targets by hand and foot - we are our own worst enemy.  The round-the-back game plan doesn't help either - it is only ever one mis-kick away from a slingshot goal to the opposition.

I think O'Keefe showed more than enough to be persisted with.  His long shot at goal in the last quarter didn't miss by much, and he does seem to have good hands.

The two key players for me were Silvagni and Hollands. 

Quote from: townsendcalling – on June 09, 2025, 12:49:27 am

We are a bit rudderless at the moment with a lack of leadership from Cripps, Weitering and Curnow......what could / should we read into that??

Not one of those three is anywhere near close to normal fitness at the moment. They will survive the year, hopefully, and work towards being right for 2025. But it does hurt us that our usual champs are not showing the way as they can do.

Quote from: crashlander – on June 09, 2025, 01:07:13 am

Not one of those three is anywhere near close to normal fitness at the moment. They will survive the year, hopefully, and work towards being right for 2025. But it does hurt us that our usual champs are not showing the way as they can do.

The next couple of games should be wins.
If they are, and they're good wins it may be the confidence boost we need.
It may be three or four weeks before the real tests come.

I don't think we're taking the foot off, we are getting run over every week. It's a fitness issue.

Quote from: Lods – on June 09, 2025, 09:42:35 am

The next couple of games should be wins.
If they are, and they're good wins it may be the confidence boost we need.
It may be three or four weeks before the real tests come.

North have some good tough players with Clarko coaching them, it will not surprise me to lose to them

Hird blames Cerra's poor technique for getting polaxed.

Quote from: madbluboy – on June 09, 2025, 10:28:39 am

Hird blames Cerra's poor technique for getting polaxed.

media spin trying to prevent a suspension. 

The reality is Durham had no eyes for the ball and ironed out cerra and I found myself thinking our guys would never do that, and then wondered if that's why we get run over the way we do when the pressure goes up.

I agree that our players aren't fit enough.  They look gassed well and truly by the end of the game.

I think we are seeing the product of repeated injuries over time vs a competition who seem to have a core of players who dont suffer lengthy setbacks with injury like ours seem to.

Quote from: madbluboy – on June 09, 2025, 10:29:57 am

I don't think we're taking the foot off, we are getting run over every week. It's a fitness issue.

I don't think we run out of gas so much - it's just that we have very little speed in the first place, and once teams get a running game going against us, we have almost no counter-punch.

I get so mad watching our forwards guarding grass and letting opposition defenders have unpressured disposal and room to run.  Our forward half pressure is almost non-existent, and we invite running teams to have a crack at us. 

Get up in their grills and challenge them to kick better when someone's actually turning the screw on them, instead of pointing fingers and pretending you can cover 3 guys that you are 20 metres away from.

see when I watch us, i see us too quick to leave a man to pressure the ball carrier.  Thing is players tend to leave one spare over the top and take themselves out of the contest doing so, and ive never really understood why you would do this as you extract yourself from the equation too easily.  Sure that's easier to say from the stands, and I'm not sure what they see at ground level to play like this.

Quote from: Thryleon – on June 09, 2025, 10:52:46 am

media spin trying to prevent a suspension. 

The reality is Durham had no eyes for the ball and ironed out cerra and I found myself thinking our guys would never do that, and then wondered if that's why we get run over the way we do when the pressure goes up.

I agree that our players aren't fit enough.  They look gassed well and truly by the end of the game.

I think we are seeing the product of repeated injuries over time vs a competition who seem to have a core of players who dont suffer lengthy setbacks with injury like ours seem to.

Durham lined Cerra up and had plenty of time to adjust his technique to prevent injury. Cerra looked stunned to me and I'm not sure what our medicos were thinking leaving him on the ground initially.
2 weeks for Durham imo.
Voss called it out as a black and white decision and said you can't do that stuff anymore.B. Scott said he never saw it and wouldn't comment...think he knows his man is getting a holiday.

Bottom line? We're still a good ordinary side until we show otherwise - by beating top 8 sides.

Agree with those who question our lack of fitness. Last night it was quite obvious we started to run out of gas about halfway through the 2Q. We then became more susceptible to pressure and started making a lot more mistakes. Gutsy win in the end, by the skin of our teeth.

That's where I'm really struggling at the moment.
I don't know where we stand.
We lose to a Richmond, but we beat a Geelong
You watch the first quarter last night and we play football that would trouble most sides.
You watch the rest of the game and we struggle to beat a side missing many of their starting 22, but even with then they would probably be average at best.

There's a part of me that wants to know the real Carlton, warts and all, rather than these hot/cold efforts.
Even if that means disappointment for the rest of this season.
At least it will give us an opportunity to try a few things that may be on hold at the moment because we're not totally out of it.

Quote from: Lods – on June 09, 2025, 11:48:40 am

That's where I'm really struggling at the moment.
I don't know where we stand.
We lose to a Richmond, but we beat a Geelong
You watch the first quarter last night and we play football that would trouble most sides.
You watch the rest of the game and we struggle to beat a side missing many of their starting 22, but even with then they would probably be average at best.

There's a part of me that wants to know the real Carlton, warts and all, rather than these hot/cold efforts.
Even if that means disappointment for the rest of this season.
At least it will give us an opportunity to try a few things that may be on hold at the moment because we're not totally out of it.

I think what you see is the real Carlton. We are a 50% side. In a general sense, two good quarters, then two shaky quarters, half our game is in good order, the other half is a work in progress. If you take the midpoint between 1st and 18th, you get 9th, which IMO is about right, and that finishing position may well be the best we can hope for this season.

Quote from: PaulP – on June 09, 2025, 11:57:05 am

On a positive note Sportsbet have brought us in to $51.00 from $67.00 yesterday to win the flag.
They're telling us there' still a chance.

lol

Credit to Motlop, I thought he played his best game and maybe that bit of time in the midfield has sharpened his skills and awareness.
Fantasia looked rusty but I'd keep him in the team for next week and see if he can improve.

Quote from: Thryleon – on June 09, 2025, 11:02:12 am

see when I watch us, i see us too quick to leave a man to pressure the ball carrier.  Thing is players tend to leave one spare over the top and take themselves out of the contest doing so, and ive never really understood why you would do this as you extract yourself from the equation too easily.  Sure that's easier to say from the stands, and I'm not sure what they see at ground level to play like this.

I understand this observation, but i disagree.

Last night was actually a perfect example of that.
How did we get out to the lead? By doing exactly this.

Keep pressuring the ball carrier to make a forced handball to the +1, do that enough times and eventually they will stuff one up and turn it over.

How many times last night did the commentators say they gave 1 too many handballs. That is why. Pressure, pressure, pressure.

Bombers folded under pressure early.

Some better teams make be better equiped to deal with the pressure and hurt us more, but we'll cross that bridge...

Quote from: cookie2 – on June 09, 2025, 11:32:46 am

Agree with those who question our lack of fitness. Last night it was quite obvious we started to run out of gas about halfway through the 2Q. We then became more susceptible to pressure and started making a lot more mistakes. Gutsy win in the end, by the skin of our teeth.

I just think we lose focus, Fluffy One, once the opposition brings heat and/or something different... And that can look like fitness. If our fitness was not up to scratch, we'd have folded in the last qtr but were able to find more intensity especially from our mids.

Losing focus brings the opposition into the game. Such a brittle edge in the modern game... drop 3% and you're in the shizen. Plus I think we're 'bedding down' a much needed extra dimension to our game - better/more composed inside 50 entries, and making the ground bigger.

I think what you see is the real Carlton. We are a 50% side. In a general sense, two good quarters, then two shaky quarters, half our game is in good order, the other half is a work in progress. If you take the midpoint between 1st and 18th, you get 9th, which IMO is about right, and that finishing position may well be the best we can hope for this season.

I take a different approach regarding this, because I see our best the equal of any, but like you say it's often only for 1/2 a game.

It's doesn't take much more of a shift beyond 50/50 to make a huge difference. We seem to lack the reliability to put the brakes on teams when things aren't going our way. But make that 50/50 into a 60/40 and all of a sudden you're pushing the Top 4.

Easy to write, but I concede AFL is a game won or lost inside a variation of just a few percent.
................................................

Quote from: kruddler – on June 09, 2025, 11:34:17 am

I understand this observation, but i disagree.

Last night was actually a perfect example of that.
How did we get out to the lead? By doing exactly this.

Keep pressuring the ball carrier to make a forced handball to the +1, do that enough times and eventually they will stuff one up and turn it over.

How many times last night did the commentators say they gave 1 too many handballs. That is why. Pressure, pressure, pressure.

Bombers folded under pressure early.

Some better teams make be better equiped to deal with the pressure and hurt us more, but we'll cross that bridge...

there's probably a time and a place for both, but to me it looks like spending energy tickets and leaving a man free closer to goal.

I don't think we're taking the foot off, we are getting run over every week. It's a fitness issue.

Agree with those who question our lack of fitness. Last night it was quite obvious we started to run out of gas about halfway through the 2Q. We then became more susceptible to pressure and started making a lot more mistakes. Gutsy win in the end, by the skin of our teeth.

At one stage last night both teams wasted time kicking the ball to each other from half back line to half back line with repeated silly turnovers and poor execution of skills, wasnt lack of effort in winning the ball but both teams play a midpack team standard gamestyle because the skill level and decision making isnt consistent or high quality enough.

Quote from: cookie2 – on June 09, 2025, 11:32:46 am

Agree with those who question our lack of fitness. Last night it was quite obvious we started to run out of gas about halfway through the 2Q. We then became more susceptible to pressure and started making a lot more mistakes. Gutsy win in the end, by the skin of our teeth.

But we got rid of the the problem, Russell (appararent the worst HP guy ever and the cause of all our problems). How is it possible? Our players dont like it tough, that's the problem. I said it last night, our midfield isn't tough enough for long enough and it almost cost us the game. Another 2 or 4 minutes and we would have lost. Talk of toughing out a win is rubbish IMO.

Obviously experts think we are better than where we sit (probably right). Where else would 13th beating 10th be called unimpressive, yet they were probably right.

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on June 09, 2025, 02:08:16 pm

At one stage last night both teams wasted time kicking the ball to each other from half back line to half back line with repeated silly turnovers and poor execution of skills, wasnt lack of effort in winning the ball but both teams play a midpack team standard gamestyle because the skill level and decision making isnt consistent or high quality enough.

It's funny you mention that....
Exactly the same thing happened in the VFL at one stage yesterday.
I remember because I meant to comment on it at the time.
I just summarised it as an 'awful scrappy game'
It's probably a club wide thing for both sides. :D  :D

Durham offered a two match ban.

Quote from: laj – on June 09, 2025, 02:40:23 pm

Obviously experts think we are better than where we sit (probably right). Where else would 13th beating 10th be called unimpressive, yet they were probably right.

We probably suffer a bit from 'expectations" and being a bit of a "names on paper" side.
Our team last night featured
-a dual Brownlow medallist
-a dual Coleman medallist
-and seven All-Australians (albeit not at...or past their best)

(If Harry had played, as selected, we would have had another Coleman and another AA player)

Durham offered a two match ban.

P1ss weak!

Only luck saved Cerra from a terrible injury and all players know that’s not acceptable.

If Cerra had suffered a concussion, Durham would have got 4 weeks.  Rather than an outcome focused approach, the MRO/Tribunal should be looking at potential to cause serious injury.

I think more outrage needs to be focussed on how someone like Stewart gets off rather than the length of Durham's ban.

Anderson could have ended up with a ruptured kidney or even his spleen damaged, it's unacceptable when Stewart had failed to attack the footy.

I'm not against bumps and shepherds, but that have to be acts focussed on the footy not the player.

Nothing funny about it all Lods, its central to our issues it drives me to despair. A good mate mine tells me AdNauseam, we have some of the dumbest players in the comp, I try and defend them but I think he's right.

Quote from: Gointocarlton – on June 09, 2025, 03:37:56 pm

Nothing funny about it all Lods, its central to our issues it drives me to despair. A good mate mine tells me AdNauseam, we have some of the dumbest players in the comp, I try and defend them but I think he's right.

Not only are our players dumb, but they are lazy & conditional too.

I saw two glaring examples of this on Sunday night.

White had the ball on the far side of the ground, ran around in a circular manner and tried to kick across the body but it got smothered by a Bombres player. The ballwas on the ground with the opposition about to pick it up and instead of knowing he'd made a huge blunder and tried to rectify it by running over an tackling or applying pressure, he just jogged on the spot and let them clear the ball easily instead of running in and tackling or bumping.

The ball spilled over the back of a marking contest just in front of the goalsquare, an Essendon player was paddling the ball around near to the point line, even though Curnow had just had his marking attempt spoilt, he also jogged on the spot and allowed the Essendon player to clear the ball without any pressure or challenge instead of running in and tackling or bumping.

Both of these incidents were utterly sh1tful and tell me everything I need to know about our players.

Can you imagine the Pies players doing the same thing ?? I highly doubt it !!

Thing is, you can't teach that, the player either has the depserate will to win in his belly or he doesn't, we have too many who don't and it's why the opposition teams know we are always gettable.

Players know when they can impact contests and are drilled to take the safest option if they can’t.  Gout Gout would have struggled to have an impact in both of those incidents.

An impossible chase may look good to fans but it won’t win games of footy.

Players know when they can impact contests and are drilled to take the safest option if they can’t.  Gout Gout would have struggled to have an impact in both of those incidents.

An impossible chase may look good to fans but it won’t win games of footy.

I generally agree. Leaving aside the obvious issue of not having insider knowledge of several key areas regarding the players, believing that Curnow or any other player is a slack ar$e with a highlight reel and no 2nd efforts, essentially condemns a raft of senor coaches, assistant coaches, team mates, and the like to charges of gross incompetence of professional malfeasance.

Curnow is a serial offender in this area, as soon as the ball hits the deck he stops and lets the opposition defenders clear it without any fear of being accosted.

Who do you think should be traded out Blueray?

Quote from: LordLucifer – on June 10, 2025, 10:42:28 am

Curnow is a serial offender in this area, as soon as the ball hits the deck he stops and lets the opposition defenders clear it without any fear of being accosted.

Let's just assume for the minute that this is true (I very much doubt it, but anyway...). How do you think this plays out behind the scenes ? Do you think that Bolton, Teague, Voss and the assistants are clueless and haven't noticed, or do you think they know and just put up with it, for whatever reason ? Do you think Weitering, Walsh and others are similarly clueless, or do you think they also know and just tolerate it ? Do you think these coaches are prepared to risk humiliation, sackings, future employment prospects etc rather than confront Curnow for these alleged shortcomings ?

I am very much of the opinion that our eyes see exactly what our minds want them to see, and that what you "see" in respect of Curnow is simply a confirmation of your biases and intuitions, which you have built up over decades and which you appear determined to protect. I doubt anything I say will change that.

The problem is Paul that it's not a single perception regarding Curnow.
It's something that's mentioned across multiple forums by multiple posters.
They can't all be feeding off the one source.
If the initial contest is lost his response is often not there.

My opinion is he must be limited by injury.
If someone can produce vision of repeated second and third efforts it may change my thinking.
He seems to have trouble bending over.
He's fine in a straight line and leading to the contest.
He seems to have no trouble wheeling on shots to goal.
But it's the effort after the initial contest that seems to be lacking.

Quote from: Micky0 – on June 10, 2025, 09:02:14 am

Who do you think should be traded out Blueray?

Without being controversial, we need to think about two of either Walsh, Curnow, McKay and TDK (likely FA). No one else will have the currency needed to instantly improve the team. We're in desperate need for a speedy midfielder and I have been saying this in years yet they have not addressed this deficiency. That is unforgivable in my opinion.

And I should also add that I see plenty of players, from all teams, who could be construed to be jogging or not giving 2nd efforts.

I couldn't give two sh1ts about what the players at other clubs do though Paul, it's what OUR players do that completely infuriates me.

Quote from: PaulP – on June 10, 2025, 10:38:04 am

I generally agree. Leaving aside the obvious issue of not having insider knowledge of several key areas regarding the players, believing that Curnow or any other player is a slack ar$e with a highlight reel and no 2nd efforts, essentially condemns a raft of senor coaches, assistant coaches, team mates, and the like to charges of gross incompetence of professional malfeasance.

Curnow is a serial offender in this area, as soon as the bal lhits the deck he stops and lets the opposition defenders cler it without any fear of being accosted.

....................................

Sadly the club tied a big part of their marketing to him and it makes trading him almost impossible........................

Quote from: blueray – on June 10, 2025, 10:54:58 am

Without being controversial, we need to think about two of either Walsh, Curnow, McKay and TDK (likely FA). No one else will have the currency needed to instantly improve the team. We're in desperate need for a speedy midfielder and I have been saying this in years yet they have not addressed this deficiency. That is unforgivable in my opinion.

TDK will  probably leave.  That's it. Puts us back in the first round. We'll land a very good F/S with Harry Dean too. No point hitting the panic button. Geelong didn't in 2006, Richmond didn't in 2016, and were 37 years without a flag, virtually like us now in every way, and the Pies in 2017. A few structrual tweaks for a bit more run and we'll be ok. Then comes down to our attitude.

And I should also add that I see plenty of players, from all teams, who could be construed to be jogging or not giving 2nd efforts.

Firstly, a lot of fans make these comments based on watching the broadcast, but the depth perception is poor and particularly in either distant pocket players may appear a couple of meters apart on the broadcast, but easily have 5m or 10m of separation on the field.

Secondly, some KPP players will be told to leave the chasing to the Medium / Smalls, especially if we think their opposition KPP is susceptible to blowing up aerobically. You don't waste your KPPs legs if you think they have their opponent covered on a 2nd or 3rd effort...............

Quote from: LP – on June 10, 2025, 12:20:15 pm

Firstly, a lot of fans make these comments based on watching the broadcast, but the depth perception is poor and particularly in either distant pocket players may appear a couple of meters apart on the broadcast, but easily have 5m or 10m of separation on the field.

Secondly, some KPP players will be told to leave the chasing to the Medium / Smalls, especially if we think their opposition KPP is susceptible to blowing up aerobically. You don't waste your KPPs legs if you think they have their opponent covered on a 2nd or 3rd effort...............

This is more in keeping with my thoughts. On a spectrum of plausibility, it's more plausible that Charlie is playing to instruction, and that the team is better off with him in than out, and that his KPI's are set realistically, based on injury, pre season, role within the team etc. I think it's far less likely that he is holding the club to ransom because of marketing etc.

We should offer to do a straight swap of Mr Perfect Mihochek with Charlie. I can guarantee you, we won't even have time to set our stopwatches before McRae has Brodie's bags all packed and his locker cleared.

Quote from: blueray – on June 10, 2025, 10:54:58 am

Without being controversial, we need to think about two of either Walsh, Curnow, McKay and TDK (likely FA). No one else will have the currency needed to instantly improve the team. We're in desperate need for a speedy midfielder and I have been saying this in years yet they have not addressed this deficiency. That is unforgivable in my opinion.

TDK will  probably leave.  That's it. Puts us back in the first round. We'll land a very good F/S with Harry Dean too. No point hitting the panic button. Geelong didn't in 2006, Richmond didn't in 2016, and were 37 years without a flag, virtually like us now in every way, and the Pies in 2017. A few structrual tweaks for a bit more run and we'll be ok. Then comes down to our attitude.

Quote from: laj – on June 10, 2025, 11:20:22 am

TDK will  probably leave.  That's it. Puts us back in the first round. We'll land a very good F/S with Harry Dean too. No point hitting the panic button. Geelong didn't in 2006, Richmond didn't in 2016, and were 37 years without a flag, virtually like us now in every way, and the Pies in 2017. A few structrual tweaks for a bit more run and we'll be ok. Then comes down to our attitude.

So you're happy with Curnow's input? With Harry's? With Walsh?
I am not and they all have currency right now to get very good stock back with immediate effect. Any later and we're stuck with them.
I was with my 17 year old son at the game. In the last quarter 5 mins to go and Curnow has a shot to ice the game. I said to him "The great players kick this goal, let's see if he's a great player". Sure enough he misses badly and game is still on a knife's edge. We can get rid of players that aren't great and Curnow, McKay and Walsh are not great players. They are very good with potential to be great but they have had enough time to be great and unfortunately they will not hit that mark.

Quote from: blueray – on June 10, 2025, 11:58:06 am

So you're happy with Curnow's input? With Harry's? With Walsh?
I am not and they all have currency right now to get very good stock back with immediate effect. Any later and we're stuck with them.
I was with my 17 year old son at the game. In the last quarter 5 mins to go and Curnow has a shot to ice the game. I said to him "The great players kick this goal, let's see if he's a great player". Sure enough he misses badly and game is still on a knife's edge. We can get rid of players that aren't great and Curnow, McKay and Walsh are not great players. They are very good with potential to be great but they have had enough time to be great and unfortunately they will not hit that mark.

Have been their whole careers. Harry's work in the 2nd ruck this year around the ground has been terrific even if not hitting the scoreboard. Match winner against Geelong. Charlie missed his pre-season, still on target for 50+ while Walsh also missed a chunk of pre-season and still not 100%. Form is temporary, class is permanent. I'm not soft enough of mind to throw the baby out with the bathwater at the first sign of panic and a slight drop in champion player's form. Those sides above I mentioned didn't and reaped the rewards.                           

Maybe for the forwards issues are the worst delivery imaginable going into the F50.  Notice how much better they perform earlier in games when the ball comes in more easily. Hence we are on top of the half time ladder, 10-2, 130%, a significant, telling stat. Says to maybe blame elsewhere with what happens after half time. It's not just the gun forwards, it's up the ground. Hard enough for the like of Charlie when he is fit, let alone half fit.                              

Quote from: laj – on June 10, 2025, 04:04:48 pm

Have been their whole careers. Harry's work in the 2nd ruck this year around the ground has been terrific even if not hitting the scoreboard. Match winner against Geelong. Charlie missed his pre-season, still on target for 50+ while Walsh also missed a chunk of pre-season and still not 100%. Form is temporary, class is permanent. I'm not soft enough of mind to throw the baby out with the bathwater at the first sign of panic and a slight drop in champion player's form. Those sides above I mentioned didn't and reaped the rewards.                           

Maybe for the forwards issues are the worst delivery imaginable going into the F50.  Notice how much better they perform earlier in games when the ball comes in more easily. Hence we are on top of the half time ladder, 10-2, 130%, a significant, telling stat. Says to maybe blame elsewhere with what happens after half time. It's not just the gun forwards, it's up the ground. Hard enough for the like of Charlie when he is fit, let alone half fit.                              

All i was saying is we need two players out with currency (as above). One is likely Walsh who has gone backwards and two would be Harry or Curnow but Carlton won't. They'll just let TDK go for peanuts and have another ordinary year. Curnow has no dog in him. He is supremely talented but just does not do enough. Our entries can be poor but i see the leads from our forwards live each week. No wonder the entries are as bad as they are. Hard work beats talent. Just look at Collingwood

Quote from: PaulP – on June 10, 2025, 11:11:23 am

And I should also add that I see plenty of players, from all teams, who could be construed to be jogging or not giving 2nd efforts.

I couldn't give two sh1ts about what the players at other clubs do though Paul, it's what OUR players do that completely infuriates me.

Quote from: Gointocarlton – on June 09, 2025, 03:37:56 pm

Nothing funny about it all Lods, its central to our issues it drives me to despair. A good mate mine tells me AdNauseam, we have some of the dumbest players in the comp, I try and defend them but I think he's right.

Not only are our players dumb, but they are lazy & conditional too.

I saw two glaring examples of this on Sunday night.

White had the ball on the far side of the ground, ran around in a circular manner and tried to kick across the body but it got smothered by a Bombres player. The ballwas on the ground with the opposition about to pick it up and instead of knowing he'd made a huge blunder and tried to rectify it by running over an tackling or applying pressure, he just jogged on the spot and let them clear the ball easily instead of running in and tackling or bumping.

The ball spilled over the back of a marking contest just in front of the goalsquare, an Essendon player was paddling the ball around near to the point line, even though Curnow had just had his marking attempt spoilt, he also jogged on the spot and allowed the Essendon player to clear the ball without any pressure or challenge instead of running in and tackling or bumping.

Both of these incidents were utterly sh1tful and tell me everything I need to know about our players.

Can you imagine the Pies players doing the same thing ?? I highly doubt it !!

Thing is, you can't teach that, the player either has the depserate will to win in his belly or he doesn't, we have too many who don't and it's why the opposition teams know we are always gettable. 

Quote from: DJC – on June 10, 2025, 10:25:39 am

Players know when they can impact contests and are drilled to take the safest option if they can’t.  Gout Gout would have struggled to have an impact in both of those incidents.

An impossible chase may look good to fans but it won’t win games of footy.

No, nada, zilch ........... not buying that cop-out excuse, our players are lazy and it shows.

Just letting the opposition do what they like when they like is a defeatist atitude especially when the ball was well within a reasonable space for them to challenge.

Quote from: LordLucifer – on June 10, 2025, 09:51:16 am

Not only are our players dumb, but they are lazy & conditional too.

I saw two glaring examples of this on Sunday night.

White had the ball on the far side of the ground, ran around in a circular manner and tried to kick across the body but it got smothered by a Bombres player. The ballwas on the ground with the opposition about to pick it up and instead of knowing he'd made a huge blunder and tried to rectify it by running over an tackling or applying pressure, he just jogged on the spot and let them clear the ball easily instead of running in and tackling or bumping.

The ball spilled over the back of a marking contest just in front of the goalsquare, an Essendon player was paddling the ball around near to the point line, even though Curnow had just had his marking attempt spoilt, he also jogged on the spot and allowed the Essendon player to clear the ball without any pressure or challenge instead of running in and tackling or bumping.

Both of these incidents were utterly sh1tful and tell me everything I need to know about our players.

Can you imagine the Pies players doing the same thing ?? I highly doubt it !!

Thing is, you can't teach that, the player either has the depserate will to win in his belly or he doesn't, we have too many who don't and it's why the opposition teams know we are always gettable. 

Saw both of those, not a good look.

Quote from: Gointocarlton – on June 10, 2025, 05:50:29 pm

Saw both of those, not a good look.

Worse was Williams dropped mark with no pressure and not for the first time he has fumbled thinking he was going to take some contact, dont see what everyone else sees in him...800k plus for that effort each year isnt good enough if we want to be a top level team.

And I should also add that I see plenty of players, from all teams, who could be construed to be jogging or not giving 2nd efforts.

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on June 10, 2025, 06:03:31 pm

Worse was Williams dropped mark with no pressure and not for the first time he has fumbled thinking he was going to take some contact, dont see what everyone else sees in him...800k plus for that effort each year isnt good enough if we want to be a top level team.

One could go on and on picking out poor execution from players who simply shouldn't. Its futile.

Quote from: Gointocarlton – on June 10, 2025, 05:50:29 pm

Saw both of those, not a good look.

Worse was Williams dropped mark with no pressure and not for the first time he has fumbled thinking he was going to take some contact, dont see what everyone else sees in him...800k plus for that effort each year isnt good enough if we want to be a top level team.

The fact of the matter is that players cannot give 100% effort for the entire game.  A gut-running effort from Ollie Hollands takes it's toll and he has to have a spell on the bench or take an easier option next time he's in the play.

Charlie was on the ground for 92% of the game on Sunday.  Only Weitering was on the ground for longer. 

Charlie has to conserve his energy and he has to choose when it's worth putting in that extra effort or focusing on preparing for the next opportunity.  If Charlie expends energy in a futile chase he will be unable to get up the ground to provide a marking target or lead for the ball inside 50.

If the "observations" of some spectators had merit, Charlie wouldn't be in the team.  If he did make the second, third and fourth efforts that some spectators think he should, he would be on the bench for 40-50% of the game, and we don't have the luxury of another gun key forward on the pine and ready to give Charlie a breather.

Quote from: PaulP – on June 10, 2025, 11:11:23 am

And I should also add that I see plenty of players, from all teams, who could be construed to be jogging or not giving 2nd efforts.

The fact of the matter is that players cannot give 100% effort for the entire game.  A gut-running effort from Ollie Hollands takes it's toll and he has to have a spell on the bench or take an easier option next time he's in the play.

Charlie was on the ground for 92% of the game on Sunday.  Only Weitering was on the ground for longer. 

Charlie has to conserve his energy and he has to choose when it's worth putting in that extra effort or focusing on preparing for the next opportunity.  If Charlie expends energy in a futile chase he will be unable to get up the ground to provide a marking target or lead for the ball inside 50.

If the "observations" of some spectators had merit, Charlie wouldn't be in the team.  If he did make the second, third and fourth efforts that some spectators think he should, he would be on the bench for 40-50% of the game, and we don't have the luxury of another gun key forward on the pine and ready to give Charlie a breather.

Quote from: DJC – on June 10, 2025, 06:16:24 pm

The fact of the matter is that players cannot give 100% effort for the entire game.  A gut-running effort from Ollie Hollands takes it's toll and he has to have a spell on the bench or take an easier option next time he's in the play.

Charlie was on the ground for 92% of the game on Sunday.  Only Weitering was on the ground for longer. 

Charlie has to conserve his energy and he has to choose when it's worth putting in that extra effort or focusing on preparing for the next opportunity.  If Charlie expends energy in a futile chase he will be unable to get up the ground to provide a marking target or lead for the ball inside 50.

If the "observations" of some spectators had merit, Charlie wouldn't be in the team.  If he did make the second, third and fourth efforts that some spectators think he should, he would be on the bench for 40-50% of the game, and we don't have the luxury of another gun key forward on the pine and ready to give Charlie a breather.

I would have to agree. These short moments get frozen in time, and become a dogma that gets played on repeat. Everything else is ignored. So when someone with this mindset watches the footy, it doesn't matter that Charlie kicks a few goals. It doesn't  matter that he runs several kms in one game. It doesn't matter that he spends 90+% TOG. It doesn't matter that he takes great contested marks. The only thing that matters is that he "appears", on a small number of occasions, to not give the effort some supporters deem to be the minimum required, despite not really knowing the background instructions, game plan etc. And such supporters have trained themselves, over years, to go looking for this.

 If you are going to Photoshop out of the picture everything that compromises your cherished dogmas and beliefs, you have, IMO, a serious flaw in your thought process.

Confirmation bias.

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on June 10, 2025, 06:03:31 pm

Worse was Williams dropped mark with no pressure and not for the first time he has fumbled thinking he was going to take some contact, dont see what everyone else sees in him...800k plus for that effort each year isnt good enough if we want to be a top level team.

I don't think Williams was expecting contact at all.  He simply got under a ball that wasn't directed as well as it could have been.  Not difficult under lights and deep in the pocket.

What I saw from Zac on Sunday was footy smarts and a lively performance that produced two goals, two goal assists, eight score involvements, two marks inside 50, three clearances and 336 metres gained.  That's not a bad return from a small/medium forward under any circumstances.  Fly would have loved a similar performance from Jamie Elliott.

Quote from: DJC – on June 10, 2025, 06:27:25 pm

I don't think Williams was expecting contact at all.  He simply got under a ball that wasn't directed as well as it could have been.  Not difficult under lights and deep in the pocket.

What I saw from Zac on Sunday was footy smarts and a lively performance that produced two goals, two goal assists, eight score involvements, two marks inside 50, three clearances and 336 metres gained.  That's not a bad return from a small/medium forward under any circumstances.  Fly would have loved a similar performance from Jamie Elliott.

That would be a poor game from Jamie Elliott and his opponent would be credited with having him well held. One is a class act who will be All Australian and the other is an inconsistent serial offender when it comes to poor contesting and we need better from a senior player especially when younger players like Matt Carroll are putting their bodies on the line in marking contests and committing to the cause.

Quote from: blueray – on June 10, 2025, 04:46:43 pm

All i was saying is we need two players out with currency (as above). One is likely Walsh who has gone backwards and two would be Harry or Curnow but Carlton won't. They'll just let TDK go for peanuts and have another ordinary year. Curnow has no dog in him. He is supremely talented but just does not do enough. Our entries can be poor but i see the leads from our forwards live each week. No wonder the entries are as bad as they are. Hard work beats talent. Just look at Collingwood

I'm not a panic merchant with knee reactions. You're not getting rid of your best players to get them. Charlie has 2 Coleman's, would have been a 3rd last year without the ankle injury and still will kick 50+ this year even without a pre-season. Start giving away your best players and you find yourself going no-where. In the end one has to score to win. Just pure panic.   Like I said, we lead the half time ladder comfortably, so we can play. Things go ok then and we score. Scores are often in the 50s or close to it. What happens in the 2nd half then didn't happen in 2023 and up to round 19 2024 until injuries killed us? Basically the same side. Possibly the game plan? Attitude of the team as a whole? Play the wrong side?

TDK will get us top 8 compo as it stands. We could use that or even split it. Plus Harry Dean and the NGA prospect Ison.

When he's been in the squad I think Williams has been OK for us, too many fans let his lack of durability cloud their judgement on football issues, but in reality when he's on the park he's generally doing OK. We can't make that claim for some others.

Quote from: LP – on June 11, 2025, 07:24:13 am

When he's been in the squad I think Williams has been OK for us, too many fans let his lack of durability cloud their judgement on football issues, but in reality when he's on the park he's generally doing OK. We can't make that claim for some others.

I think that Zac has been more than OK this season.  As a forward, he provides a point of difference with his ability to break the lines, find space, and make good use of the pill. His occasional work as a midfielder is far more productive than when he was tried as a full time mid.  And then there’s his ability to do a role in defence if necessary.

Yes, his lack of durability is an issue but I don’t get the focus on his pay packet, which seems to be growing steadily.  Clubs pay overs for free agents.

I think that Zac has been more than OK this season.  As a forward, he provides a point of difference with his ability to break the lines, find space, and make good use of the pill. His occasional work as a midfielder is far more productive than when he was tried as a full time mid.  And then there’s his ability to do a role in defence if necessary.

Yes, his lack of durability is an issue but I don’t get the focus on his pay packet, which seems to be growing steadily.  Clubs pay overs for free agents.

I only point out its a frustration.  Does he break down more or less than the others?  How does he stack up next to his peers?   Who can we logically compare him to?

Its like Jack Martin.  His ability, and capability was fine, but at some point reliability becomes the issue.  Both Gov and Williams suffer from lack of reliability.

I only point out its a frustration.  Does he break down more or less than the others?  How does he stack up next to his peers?   Who can we logically compare him to?

Its like Jack Martin.  His ability, and capability was fine, but at some point reliability becomes the issue.  Both Gov and Williams suffer from lack of reliability.

Quote from: Thryleon – on June 12, 2025, 10:31:59 am

I only point out its a frustration.  Does he break down more or less than the others?  How does he stack up next to his peers?   Who can we logically compare him to?

Its like Jack Martin.  His ability, and capability was fine, but at some point reliability becomes the issue.  Both Gov and Williams suffer from lack of reliability.

There will always be some player that breaks down more than an other, its statistically certain.
On the same scale, the opposite is true.
For every Jimmy Stynes, there is a Luke Livingston.

Can a club predict who does what and when. No.
Do they have some kind of idea? Potentially.

Look at Charlie, missed years of footy, then barely missed since.
Similar with Doc.

Cripps broke his leg early, has barely missed since.

There is no magical crystal ball you can look into that will guarantee you one way or another. As a club, you take a punt and back yourself in. I'm sure Zac isn't deliberately getting injured.

Quote from: kruddler – on June 12, 2025, 02:28:13 pm

There will always be some player that breaks down more than an other, its statistically certain.
On the same scale, the opposite is true.
For every Jimmy Stynes, there is a Luke Livingston.

Can a club predict who does what and when. No.
Do they have some kind of idea? Potentially.

Look at Charlie, missed years of footy, then barely missed since.
Similar with Doc.

Cripps broke his leg early, has barely missed since.

There is no magical crystal ball you can look into that will guarantee you one way or another. As a club, you take a punt and back yourself in. I'm sure Zac isn't deliberately getting injured.

I know.  I understand why people are frustrated about it though.  Nick Stevens was the same.  Juddy wasnt. 

You win some you lose some, but the impact of that happening is the point.  It causes angst, robs you of a solid performer who can impact games, and means they are on there to impact games less, or arent able to when you need them.

Sounds like a certain ruckman that is garnering more attention, except we have already paid the price here.

Im not even saying he should go, but when we talk list management and moving players on, these candidates sit in possibly tradeable for the right price, and more of a priority to move on ALA marchbank.

Never said soft, and dont wish to portray that.  You take the AFL field and you arent soft.  You either gut run, or crack in, but no one is soft.  Its the let down factor Im talking about.

Thats the danger of the marquee player.  They become a point of issue when you arent going well.  Hence why everyone is having heart murmurs over Charlies form this season.

Quote from: Thryleon – on June 12, 2025, 02:52:25 pm

I know.  I understand why people are frustrated about it though.  Nick Stevens was the same.  Juddy wasnt. 

You win some you lose some, but the impact of that happening is the point.  It causes angst, robs you of a solid performer who can impact games, and means they are on there to impact games less, or arent able to when you need them.

Sounds like a certain ruckman that is garnering more attention, except we have already paid the price here.

Im not even saying he should go, but when we talk list management and moving players on, these candidates sit in possibly tradeable for the right price, and more of a priority to move on ALA marchbank.

Nick Stevens broke his neck and still played a few games before he found out. So its not like he was soft - like people would often suggest.
Juddy started with OP and dodgy shoulders and ended up with a knee, so he was far from bullet proof either.

We cut so many 'injury prone players' last year...possibly too many because it hurt our depth.
I think we've been pretty lucky with some of the kids who have stepped up this year and done ok.
Hands up anyone who thought Matt Carroll would get a game. He's had 7 i think.
Will white? Up to game 9!
HOK, HOF, Lucas
Lord taken the next step as well.

I'm not sure what Williams is on, but its not going to be as much as people expect.
Even if it is (which it isn't) if you stack his numbers up against any other small forward on our list (and we have 27 of them) he outperforms them all in terms of output. Even using simply goals, he is 1/2 goal clear on most if not all others.

Quote from: kruddler – on June 12, 2025, 03:07:26 pm

Nick Stevens broke his neck and still played a few games before he found out. So its not like he was soft - like people would often suggest.
Juddy started with OP and dodgy shoulders and ended up with a knee, so he was far from bullet proof either.

We cut so many 'injury prone players' last year...possibly too many because it hurt our depth.
I think we've been pretty lucky with some of the kids who have stepped up this year and done ok.
Hands up anyone who thought Matt Carroll would get a game. He's had 7 i think.
Will white? Up to game 9!
HOK, HOF, Lucas
Lord taken the next step as well.

I'm not sure what Williams is on, but its not going to be as much as people expect.
Even if it is (which it isn't) if you stack his numbers up against any other small forward on our list (and we have 27 of them) he outperforms them all in terms of output. Even using simply goals, he is 1/2 goal clear on most if not all others.

Williams might be ahead of our other small forwards but he is a mile of the better ones in the top teams ...if you tried to trade him we would be lucky if we got a bite and even then the return would be minimal imho.
I agree no player is soft who takes the field given every game now is a physical no holds barred contest fest but he is inconsistent in his attack on the ball and that makes him a liability imho and if I could get an upgrade on him I would.

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on June 12, 2025, 04:48:10 pm

Williams might be ahead of our other small forwards but he is a mile of the better ones in the top teams ...if you tried to trade him we would be lucky if we got a bite and even then the return would be minimal imho.
I agree no player is soft who takes the field given every game now is a physical no holds barred contest fest but he is inconsistent in his attack on the ball and that makes him a liability imho and if I could get an upgrade on him I would.

No one will trade for him because of his history and the fact he is 31. He might not be as good as other clubs equivalents, but so what, he's still the best performed bloke we've got, so maybe forget about his age, his pay packet, his previous injury history and give the bloke some credit for what he is doing on the footy field.

This is not directed at anyone specifically, but the footballing world as a whole.
Everyone is quick to sink the boots in, nobody will give him any kudos though.

I'll bite.
Williams has value as a chaos ball half forward opportunist.  He's close to the only one on the list that can make goals out of nothing. So, in that respect he gets a game.
But he wasn't recruited to play that role and must be considered an expensive FA bust.
Do not expect him to play meaningful minutes on ball, or in defence, because it will end in tears or frustration.
Get out the tape of Williams playing in defence on the last (wet) game versus the pies, his "contesting", or more correctly lack thereof, was embarassing.  I'm surprised Voss didn't walk on to the ground and drag him off by the collar.

Quote from: Professer E – on June 12, 2025, 06:06:50 pm

I'll bite.
Williams has value as a chaos ball half forward opportunist.  He's close to the only one on the list that can make goals out of nothing. So, in that respect he gets a game.
But he wasn't recruited to play that role and must be considered an expensive FA bust.
Do not expect him to play meaningful minutes on ball, or in defence, because it will end in tears or frustration.
Get out the tape of Williams playing in defence on the last (wet) game versus the pies, his "contesting", or more correctly lack thereof, was embarassing.  I'm surprised Voss didn't walk on to the ground and drag him off by the collar.

Silvagni wasn't recruited to play key back. - Is he a bust?
McGovern was a forward, now a back, now a forward again?? - Is he a bust??

Thats a weird way to evaluate success/failures.